00:00:00 <ais523> and it's almost certainly possible to stop it doing that
00:00:03 <pikhq> Tcl only pollutes (n).
00:00:13 <ais523> well, cpan puts everything in section 3perl
00:00:21 <ais523> but as ehird says, that's not particularly useful
00:00:24 * dear_my_inner_ra decides to learn how to read analog clocks by setting his Mac's menubar clock to it
00:00:31 <pikhq> dear_my_inner_ra: What, would you prefer for there not to be man pages of it?
00:00:32 <ais523> ehird: use a decimal clock
00:00:39 <ais523> I implemented a decimal clock applet for windows ages ago
00:00:44 <ais523> incidentally, it's about 0 right now
00:01:05 <ais523> decimal time's like that but with two more decimal places
00:01:14 <ais523> and local time, rather than UTC+1 for no apparent reason
00:01:42 <ais523> thus it being @0 around now
00:02:03 <dear_my_inner_ra> also, since 1 beat = 1 minute and 26.4 seconds, I don't feel the need for more precision
00:02:25 <ais523> 10 = about 15 minutes, which is more generally useful
00:02:28 <dear_my_inner_ra> otherwise, saying "oh, it's @200, happy midnight" is very unnatural
00:02:31 <ais523> as I tend to think in units of about 15 minutes
00:02:46 <ais523> yes, well it's @0, which is only midnight because we're in summertime atm
00:02:57 <ais523> about @1 or @2 now, I suppose
00:03:07 <ais523> also, saying "happy midnight" is unnatural no matter what the circumstances
00:03:12 <dear_my_inner_ra> grr, if you have the analog clock in os x, you can't get the digital time in the menu
00:03:34 <ais523> ehird: are you trolling?
00:03:54 <ais523> over here I mostly hear "it's tomorrow"
00:04:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please only change one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:04:08 <dear_my_inner_ra> "happy today" might just be saying, hey, it's today, that's cool
00:04:53 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:05:02 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> Are you a Gmail user, or do you have friends who are? Do you resent the "Sponsored Link" advertisements that come up next to the incoming mail? Now you and your friends can do something about it!
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> The solution is simple, when sending an email to a gmail user include a sentence or two that mentions catastrophic events or tragedies. Google does not use humans to read your email, only computers. These computers search for keywords that trigger the advertisements, however, if they hapen to find a catastrophic event or tragedy Google errs on the side of good taste and removes the ads altogether.
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> You may want to make mention of what you are doing so the recipient is not alarmed by your sudden Tourette's-like outburst. You can link to this site by way of explanation if need be.
00:07:56 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: PS. Suicide death 9/11 murder http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:08:04 <dear_my_inner_ra> The link to our logs is considered sensitive by gmail. True fact.
00:08:17 -!- ais523 has set topic: ehird was banned from this topic due to violating the topic rules. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:08:59 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: ehird ~~ BANNED ~~ AVATAR! ~~ This COOKIE tastes like VIOLENCE! ~~ Posts: 34,383 ~~ Joined: Jan 2001 ~~ Signature: check out my great forum: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:09:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un topic. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:09:27 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: Ceci n'est pas valid French. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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01:01:53 * pikhq is vaguely in the mood to fiddle with little-used OSes
01:02:14 <pikhq> If MachTen were gratis, I'd be fiddling with that.
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12:52:58 <ehird> happy mailman mailing list reminders day
12:57:15 <ehird> I've found precedent that we're using the wrong name for that
12:57:36 <ehird> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/437 came before http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/1226, so we must assume the former is the original (especially since that's Hixie's kind of joke)
12:57:50 <ehird> happy mailman mailing list memberships reminders day
12:57:58 <ehird> happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminders day
13:00:06 <ehird> "More fucking particles, really, science? You know what?
13:00:06 <ehird> Fuck you. I'm not even trying to understand it, now."
13:00:06 <ehird> — http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons
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13:40:52 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/ <-- Delety
13:42:09 <FireFly> Can you protect a non-existant page from being created, with mediawiki?
13:44:12 <FireFly> That talk page could probably make use of it
13:56:48 <ehird> Slereah_: you can?
13:57:22 <Slereah_> I know that wikis have a lot of non-existant pages blocked from creation
13:59:44 <ehird> wiki admins: please delete this bullshit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute
13:59:51 <ehird> not even funny any more
13:59:59 <ehird> completely tired of shit like that
14:01:37 <ehird> huh http://4mhz.de/
14:01:38 <ehird> (21 Jul 2009) Some days ago, I received a voucher copy of c't extra Programmieren 02/09, a special issue of c't (a German IT magazine). They published Brainfuck Developer on DVD. In the article, there's even a screenshot ;) It's nice to see the work you've done recognized.
14:04:02 <ehird> Copying digital information isn't stealing
14:05:10 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/More ← needs more has-been-deletedness
14:05:17 <Slereah_> I'm no MPAA people, you know what I
14:05:30 <ehird> Slereah_: no, because stealing implies a bad thing
14:05:47 <Slereah_> I'm mostly asking if they asked him first
14:06:59 <ehird> Copying digital information is not a bad thing.
14:07:41 <FireFly> I want to read that article now
14:07:50 <ehird> I want to read YOUR MOM
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14:39:05 <Slereah_> Not if they make profit from it :o
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14:46:25 <ehird> Slereah_: you're wrong :p
14:47:22 <Slereah_> Which is the evilest thing of all!
14:50:25 <ehird> http://sites.google.com/site/yacoset/Home/physics-for-programmers
14:51:07 <ehird> [[Now this is a story all about how my viewpoint flipped-turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you how I became a fan of our friend X M L.
14:51:08 <ehird> In North Mopac Boulevard, castin rays, on the PC is where I spent most of my days. Chillin out, haxin, refraxin all cool, I was shootin some photons through a polybool. Then a couple of rays who were up to no good, started causing errors in their neighborhood. I wrote one little script and Maya got scared, she said "You're usin up all the memory IRIX can spare!"]]
14:51:14 <ehird> — http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/96dg0/nobody_who_uses_xml_knows_what_they_are_doing/c0bky64
14:52:49 <mycroftiv> the idea of generalizing physics to the actual generation of code isnt actually that farfetched in some ways, i think the connections between information theory, physics, and computational systems are well established now
14:53:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: i think you overestimate the seriousness
14:54:15 <mycroftiv> ehird: oh, i just like looking for the elements of truth that are what makes humor funny, i think - because these principles are actually pretty factual
14:54:44 <mycroftiv> 4. A gas will always expand to fill the volume of its container
14:54:45 <mycroftiv> All possible race conditions shall happen at some point in the life of a program.
14:55:02 <mycroftiv> that is basically 'spot on' - because both are entirely about the stochastic exploration of a state space
14:55:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: you're kooky :D
14:56:05 <mycroftiv> ehird: be careful, i might get started on W.H. Zurek and the implications of his work, and then everyone will be sorry they asked
14:56:23 <ehird> but we're not going to ask!
14:56:35 <mycroftiv> and no, hes not some crank, hes one of the world's most respected theoreticians of quantum physics
14:58:06 <Slereah_> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8177285.stm
14:58:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: You should talk to Slereah_, he works on the LHC or something.
14:58:25 <ehird> Maybe you could get him to collide programs.
14:58:27 <Slereah_> I wonder what would be my fine
14:58:44 <Slereah_> The judge would be like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS
14:59:38 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: you do fundamental physics work?
15:00:10 <ehird> I'm a physics fundamentalist
15:00:25 <ehird> THOU SHALT HAVE NO ELEMENTARY PARTICLES APART FROM QUARKS
15:01:11 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: cool, i know its a big field, but have you checked out W.H. Zurek's work on what he calls 'quantum darwinism' - basically a much extended attack on the quantum measurement problem that extends the decoherence paradigm significantly?
15:01:46 <mycroftiv> its really awesome work, imo, although i have to take a fair amount of the mathematical foundation 'on faith' - but its all peer reviewed and seems very solid, decades of work
15:02:20 <ehird> i'm a get a fun argument going
15:02:26 <ehird> Slereah_: Copenhagen or MWI?!
15:02:29 <ehird> mycroftiv: Copenhagen or MWI?!
15:03:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: zurek's quantum darwinism, it settles these questions definitively imo - it descends from MWI style thinking but is really quite different
15:03:13 <ehird> the name itself makes me suspicious.
15:03:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i know it sounds like a lame neologism, im not sure he should ahve picked it
15:03:37 <ehird> you can summarise if you wish
15:03:39 <mycroftiv> ehird: but it makes sense in a way after the concept is explained
15:04:05 <mycroftiv> in short, zurek's work is based on very careful and detailed study of how information is transferred between systems at the quantum level
15:04:06 <ehird> currently, though I'm physicstarded, I'm an MWI-er
15:04:26 <ehird> mycroftiv: you might want to dumb it down a bit btw :P
15:04:29 <mycroftiv> for a 'measurement' to happen - for us to perceive the world - information has to be transmitted through a large series of interactions
15:05:17 <mycroftiv> what zurek shows (mostly by pure mathematical manipulation of the fundamental, well tested equations of qed) is that the transmission of information between systems at the quantum level has very definite tendencies
15:05:32 <mycroftiv> in the case of the famous 'schrodingers cat' experiment, you can summarize it as this:
15:05:36 <ehird> i love the name of QED
15:05:41 <ehird> how can you argue with QED?!
15:06:06 <mycroftiv> the reason you never see a half-alive, half-dead cat is that there are rules that determine the kind of information that can be successfully transmitted into the future
15:06:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: Hey, man, don't make assumptions about what I never see.
15:06:35 <mycroftiv> and that quantum states that are 'nonsensical' simply do not make 'copies' of themselves in the form of transmitting information forward in time
15:06:48 <mycroftiv> perhaps they 'happen', but that information can never reach our sense perceptions
15:06:54 <ehird> I'm not seeing how this really relates to MWI like you said
15:07:09 <mycroftiv> because our perceiving an event in the world means that our particles have become part of an entangled quantum state
15:07:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: because the idea is that just like in many world interpretation, 'everything happens'
15:07:38 <mycroftiv> but unlike MWI, zurek has mathematically studied the dynamics of how information moves between the states and how it goes forward in time
15:07:54 <ehird> so you're saying that everything happens in _one_ universe or sth?
15:07:58 <mycroftiv> so rather than a 'branching' universe, you have a universe that represents the *fittest* collection of information
15:08:02 <ehird> this isn't really making any sense to me and I don't see how it relates to darwin at all :P
15:08:12 <mycroftiv> everything happens in our universe - but we only perceive the 'fittest' information
15:08:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: doesn't occam's razor apply a bit here?
15:08:18 <mycroftiv> because only that information is of the form to transmit itself into the future
15:08:23 <ehird> what does zurek achieve that mwi doesn't
15:08:28 <ehird> as mwi certainly seems simpler
15:08:31 <mycroftiv> mathematical meaningfulness mostly
15:08:40 <mycroftiv> he makes many more predictions and statemnts and the analysis is vastly more fine grained
15:08:49 <ehird> Is zurek compatible with mwi?
15:08:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: MWI is basically a philosophical idea - zurek's work is really hard math
15:08:54 <ehird> As in, does it contradict any part of mwi?
15:09:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: there have been plenty papers published on mwi /shrug
15:09:16 <mycroftiv> zurek descends from wheeler's tradition in this
15:09:32 <mycroftiv> he absolutely bases his work on the same principle, of taking what the actual structure of the quantum equations say 'seriously'
15:09:44 <mycroftiv> here im gonna linke the massive and awesome summary paper that was in Nature recently, the arxiv version
15:10:00 <mycroftiv> this represents a summary of decades of well respected, peer reviewed, mainstream work
15:10:06 <ehird> my brain will probably leak out i'm afraid
15:11:49 <mycroftiv> i really think the quality of the work as pure physics/math is superlative, and that the philosophical implications are absolutely staggering
15:12:28 <ehird> To bypass these obstacles Bohr [1] followed Alexander
15:12:28 <ehird> the Great’s example: Rather than try disentangling the
15:12:28 <ehird> Gordian Knot at the beginning of his conquest, he cut
15:12:28 <ehird> ↑ am i the only one who hates such crappy analogies?
15:12:48 <mycroftiv> i think that is an excellent analogy, but it is also completely irrelevant
15:12:57 <mycroftiv> that is pure literary style, nothing to do with the content of the research or its claims
15:13:07 <ehird> shush you i'm allowed to complain about it if i want :)
15:13:16 <mycroftiv> hey, i aint quashing no free speech
15:13:30 <ehird> but the evil cabal of fizzie and lament are.
15:13:34 * mycroftiv summons his black helicopters of physics interpretation censorship
15:13:37 <ehird> for definitions of are equal to would if they did.
15:16:28 <ehird> mycroftiv: well i'm sure i'll read that paper sometime in my life… like perhaps when I think it won't totally go over my head.
15:16:30 <fizzie> Yes, I certainly rule the channel with an IRON FIST, no-one can deny that.
15:17:02 <ehird> fizzie: Every time you talk I quiver in my boots!
15:17:04 <ehird> I don't even have boots.
15:17:29 <ehird> On re-reading my second last line, I read it as "boobs".
15:17:35 <ehird> Freud would have a field day.
15:17:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, the idea that the universe we perceive == the subset of the total of all quantum states that possess information dynamics corresponding to a 'universe that makes sense' is the idea
15:18:15 <mycroftiv> and Zurek shows imo convincingly this is a simple and strict consequence of the base equations themselves
15:18:38 <ehird> you seem to be talking about it like it's objective
15:18:45 <ehird> but i doubt it's that clear-cut, as in a logical consequence
15:19:14 <mycroftiv> i believe zurek has succeeded in mathematically deriving an information-theoretic fundamental ontology of the universe from the most experimentally well confirmed physical theory we have
15:19:43 <mycroftiv> so - and i know this is a fucking nuts claim that scientists would back away from - i think science has now solved the class8ic ontological problems of philosophy to a large extent
15:19:46 <ehird> If it was truly an objective, formal logic consequence, I'd have almost certainly heard about it due to it being huge.
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15:20:10 <ehird> (Litmus test: if you go on about the man oppressing the fundamental nature of the universe now, you're a quack. :P)
15:20:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, the thing is that the quantum measurement problem is not regarded as 'sexy' necessarily by the physics community, string theory has been regarded more as where its at, and cosmological issues
15:20:44 <mycroftiv> so i think there is a lot of contingent historical circumstance that means the full significance isnt really understood
15:20:52 <ehird> Seriously? All I've heard about string theory points it to being a fringe theory that no serious physicist believes due to it being undisprovable.
15:20:55 <mycroftiv> ehird: but zurek is not a quack, study his biography and his positions
15:21:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: but that is only a very recent and 'popular' opinion
15:21:17 <mycroftiv> for most of the past 20 years, string theory was what most people worked on
15:21:23 <mycroftiv> following andrew witten extensively
15:21:46 <ehird> It's hard to believe, really.
15:21:50 <mycroftiv> ehird: and really most working physicists came to believe that the quantum measurement problem was either not important, or already satisfactorily solved
15:21:55 <ehird> I mean, working on something undisprovable?
15:22:02 <ehird> Might as well develop a theory of invisible pink unicorns.
15:22:25 <mycroftiv> and as i say zurek's work is far from obscure, - it is the mainstream of modern work on QED, and not challenged by anyone so far as i know
15:22:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: Isn't the copenhagen interpretation the standard fare?
15:22:52 <ehird> That's the impression I've had, at least
15:23:04 <mycroftiv> not so much any more, the decoherent paradigm really has taken over i think
15:23:26 <mycroftiv> i think reading at the semi-popular level is likely to convey a somewhat misleading impression
15:24:30 <mycroftiv> im not a degree- carrying researcher, but ive made a serious effort to move from a 'laymans' understanding to a true technical level and follow the current research directly - and the real state of the community opinion isnt really captured well by the standard summaries of the ideas on quantum measurement
15:25:14 <mycroftiv> the thing is that people like the 'narrative' of quantum mechanics being all spooky/crazy/not understood
15:25:45 <mycroftiv> thats still the dominant trope of whatever popular discourse there tends to be, so the fact that a rather technical and detailed analysis of the theory has shown its not actually like that has just not made a huge impression on the world
15:27:21 <mycroftiv> i mean, the fact is that the average 'educated, intelligent, rational person' is still using a set of conceptual tools that basically encodes the euclidean/newtonian analytic framework
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15:32:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: btw, in re: string theory - the motivations of the string theory researchers actually do make a lot of sense fundaemntally, even though a lot of people now think that approach wont really get us anwywhere
15:32:27 <mycroftiv> our current best physical theories all have the fundamental mathematical fact in common of being strongly related to symmetry groups
15:32:53 <mycroftiv> theres a very important theorem called noether's theorem that connects symmetries to conservation laws, as a consequence
15:33:08 <mycroftiv> so, the string theorists idea is to hunt for more symmetries, basically
15:33:22 <mycroftiv> the mathematics of string theory is amazing, from a group-theoretical symmetry perspective
15:33:35 <mycroftiv> so that is why it was very appealing as a source for mathematical ideas for physics
15:34:00 <mycroftiv> in fact, much incredibly important research *has* been done by string theory - but it has turned out to be 'pure math' more than physics
15:34:06 <mycroftiv> theres nothing wrong with pure math though
15:34:30 <mycroftiv> but people get irritated when purely theoretical mathematical structures with no discrernable connection to reality start claiming to be the fundamental building blocks of everything ;)
15:38:47 <Pthing> what does "making sense" mean
15:39:18 <mycroftiv> Pthing: mispelled double antonym of 'losing dollars' ?
15:39:41 <Pthing> plausibly, but I doubt the world is quite ready for a theory unifying finance and fundamental physics
15:40:00 <ehird> Pthing: I'm not sure, I think it makes dollars and sense
15:40:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: not tiresome, i'm just bored of that subject now ;)
15:40:22 <mycroftiv> Pthing: actually, i honestly think we are - i think for instance Wolfram and others have good theories about general mathematical rules for complex dynamic systems
15:40:32 <mycroftiv> ehird: may i interest you in some plan9 from bell labs>?
15:40:39 <Pthing> Yeah well, Wolfram is his own worst enemy in that respect
15:40:43 <ehird> mycroftiv: i already like plan 9 :P
15:40:58 <Pthing> He doesn't have good theories, he has *expansive* theories
15:41:12 <Pthing> but he tells you they're good enough times
15:41:36 <mycroftiv> Pthing: hm but he also does real research and publishes stuff and makes tools, does he not? so i dont think it can be said to be purely hot air
15:41:49 <Pthing> Well, the people he *hires* does real research and publishes stuff
15:41:51 <ais523> Wolfram's theories tend to be rather vague and use brute-forcing to fill in the details
15:42:02 <ais523> that's quite interesting for small-scale things, but I don't think it scales up
15:42:02 <ehird> ais523: BUT THE UNIVERSAL 2,3 TURING MACHINE
15:42:06 <ehird> YOU DID IT, DON'T YOU _BELIEVE_?!
15:42:11 <ais523> ehird: yes, it was found via brute force
15:42:14 <mycroftiv> ais523: well, doesnt the universe itself 'brute force' itself a lot?
15:42:20 <ehird> it's you— er, his— most important result of the CENTURY!
15:42:25 <Pthing> Finding something through brute force isn't the problem
15:42:29 <Pthing> the four colour problem was brute forced
15:42:41 <ais523> mycroftiv: oh, yes; it certainly works in theory, just it tends not to work for really big things because it takes a prohibitively long time
15:42:44 <Pthing> is that Wolfram goes off with the principle of computational bollocks or whatever it was
15:43:04 <Pthing> which is not even philosophically well placed
15:43:11 <ehird> ((ais523 won the Wolfram Prize for the 2,3 turing machine thingy))
15:43:19 <ehird> (((to give context to my jokes)))
15:43:23 <ehird> Pthing: yuh: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
15:43:42 <ais523> Pthing: I think it's an attempt to generalise the Church-Turing thesis, possibly doomed to failure because nobody agrees on how to state the original thesis in the first place
15:44:03 <Pthing> It's a very emotionally appealing idea
15:44:14 <mycroftiv> wow, im seriously star struck to be in the presence of people who do the work that i regard as incredibly importnat
15:44:30 <ais523> mycroftiv: it's a bit hard over the internet
15:44:35 <ehird> ais523: you should become a celebrity
15:44:42 <ehird> you've got a better claim to fame than paris hilton!
15:44:42 <ais523> shall I digitally sign a document and send it to you?
15:44:58 <ais523> digital autographs are the things in the future
15:45:19 <Pthing> I'd *like* to be interested in
15:45:32 <Pthing> but I don't think it's even an actual thing yet
15:46:11 <Pthing> some kind of built-up computational discipline about biological systems
15:46:20 <Pthing> it's part of natural computation, sure
15:46:55 <ehird> i note that over time this channel gradually transforms from an esolang channel to just plain esoteric
15:47:08 <mycroftiv> well in the broad sense the discovery of DNA was really just that, wasnt it?
15:47:16 <ais523> hmm... what sort of thing do you normally write in autographs?
15:47:17 <mycroftiv> i mean, the mapping of DNA == source code for biology is pretty strict
15:47:22 <Pthing> Yeaahhhh sort of, the whole molecular biology thing
15:47:32 <ais523> mycroftiv: except that there seems to be lots of side-channel information too
15:47:41 <ehird> ais523: "Alex Smith", I suppose
15:47:42 <Pthing> But there's no real basis for a theoretical view of it
15:47:44 <ehird> ais523: use M-x artist-mode
15:47:45 <ais523> the DNA doesn't encode everything, even though in theory they could
15:47:50 <ehird> to make it all signature-looking!
15:47:52 <Pthing> it's all either been elucidation of the precise mechanisms
15:47:56 <mycroftiv> ais523: yeah that kind of generalization is really sloppy, im not claiming that as 'fact', but i think as maps and metaphors go, its amazingly strong
15:48:06 <ais523> I thought autographs were addressed to someone in particular
15:48:19 <ehird> ais523: i think that's mostly via implied ownership of the item in question.
15:48:20 <ais523> and besides, it's the digital sig that would contain my name, just like traditional analog sigs are where you put your name
15:48:38 <ais523> ooh, I know what I could send
15:48:41 <ehird> ais523: make a file with 24 lines of 80 spaces, then
15:48:42 <ais523> a digitally signed INTERCAL addition
15:48:45 <ehird> it's a blank piece of paper
15:48:46 <mycroftiv> i believe we now know that cells are not so much a single centrally organized thing but in fact a kind of ecosystem all in their own, with independently evolved structures, right?
15:49:02 <ehird> yo dawg i heard you like ecosystems so etc
15:49:04 <mycroftiv> with a kind of complex flow of information and processes between viruses, dna/rna, mitochondria, etc
15:49:04 <Pthing> You can go dumb with it
15:50:01 -!- Lim has joined.
15:50:14 <mycroftiv> information theory is obviously fundamental to life just because maintaining low entropy is key to the definition
15:50:29 <ehird> who/what/where brought you here
15:50:54 <Pthing> I can't see the theory getting going until people start to properly engineer genomes
15:50:59 <Pthing> We're just starting to now
15:51:23 <Lim> i can speak in french ?
15:51:31 <Pthing> The other problem is that the point of computer science is that it's so general
15:52:01 <mycroftiv> if i was going to put a bet on where we might get a truly amazing fundamental breakthrough - if we could 'crack the neural code' of whats going on in the brain in an analogous way to our current tracing of genetics...
15:52:02 <Pthing> that the architecture isn't frightfully important, so whether you can do anything on a particularly deep level *specifically* about biological computation is doubtful
15:52:10 <ehird> we might not understand you though
15:52:13 <ais523> mycroftiv: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1514846
15:52:17 <ais523> there you go, a digital autograph
15:52:20 <pikhq> Pthing: Engineering genomes has gotten started.
15:52:23 <ais523> that thing expires in 15 minutes, be sure to save a copy
15:52:27 <ehird> Lim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images
15:52:30 <ehird> is what the topic references
15:52:34 <ehird> not a french channel :P
15:52:38 -!- impomatic has joined.
15:52:56 <ehird> !translateto Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:52:59 <ehird> !translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:04 <ehird> !translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:06 <pikhq> I heard about it at USENIX in 2008; there was a freaking genetic programming language they had devised and were using to modify bacteria.
15:53:13 <ehird> `translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:16 <ais523> ehird: is that an EgoBot or HackEgo feature?
15:53:22 <ehird> `translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:24 <Pthing> I had not heard of an actual programming language
15:53:28 <ais523> which might explain why it isn't working
15:53:30 <Pthing> or what that would imply :|
15:53:42 <ehird> Lim: qu'est-ce que vous pensez que cette chaîne était d'environ?
15:53:53 <Pthing> you don't mean the iGEM parts, do you?
15:54:02 <ais523> ehird: run through an online translator?
15:54:09 <Lim> je me suis dit qu'on parle d'esoterisme ici
15:54:30 <Lim> et je suis venu voir
15:54:46 <ehird> Lim: bizarre ( «ésotériques»), les langages de programmation, en fait. mais nous sommes surtout hors sujet!
15:55:17 <ais523> I think Lim was probably referring to the topic
15:55:17 <Lim> ici on parle de programmation !!
15:55:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:55:27 <ehird> Qui a dit que Google Translate ne fonctionne pas?
15:56:06 -!- ehird has set topic: This is not valable Anglais. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:43 * ais523 wonders what the second most spoken language is here
15:56:53 -!- Lim has left (?).
15:56:54 <ais523> maybe Korean? there certainly used to be quite a few Koreans here
15:57:21 <impomatic> Has #esoteric officially switched languages?
15:57:29 <ehird> impomatic: Just to talk to someone ;-)
15:57:40 <ehird> ais523: Deewiant, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros
15:57:45 <ehird> may be more finns hanging around
15:57:51 <ais523> impomatic: nah, it was a one-off joke
15:58:01 <Pthing> finns are everywhere :||
15:58:06 <ais523> ehird: but fungot doesn't have a "there" command
15:58:06 <fungot> ais523: of course. to connect to ports and send things how it pleases
15:58:20 <ais523> that's quite a generic command, though
15:58:22 <ehird> Je pense que nous devrions tous nous parler par l'intermédiaire de Google Translate, raison: il est fun.
15:58:29 <ais523> which would explain why you gave it without arguments
15:58:46 <ehird> ais523: intercal needs a command like that
15:58:49 <impomatic> And can anyone output the string "Hello Reddit!" in Brainfuck with a program less than 113 characters
15:58:51 <ehird> connects to a random machine on a random port and sends random data
15:58:55 <ais523> I think CLC-INTERCAL has one, pretty much
15:58:55 <ehird> !bf_txtgen Hello Reddit!
15:59:02 <ais523> ehird: no way that that will win
15:59:05 <EgoBot> 117 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.>. [729]
15:59:06 <ais523> bf_txtgen is rather inefficient
15:59:12 <ais523> although, that was impressive
15:59:36 <ais523> ok, we should be able to optimise that down 5 times
15:59:58 <ehird> Twitfuck: a Brainfuck program under 140 characters that does something fun.
16:00:11 <ais523> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:00:13 <ehird> The uncomfortable double-meaning as cybersex over Twitter is welcomed.
16:00:14 <EgoBot> 48 +++++[>+++++++++++++>++>><<<<-]>..............>. [756]
16:00:23 <ais523> ah yes, it adds a final newline
16:00:31 <ais523> just removing that would shorten the program
16:00:43 <ais523> you could get rid of the >+< in the loop and the >. at the end
16:00:47 <ais523> is that cheating, though?
16:00:53 <ehird> Deutsch, als von Natur aus komisch Sprache, ist die neue Sprache für die Übersetzung meiner Dummheit.
16:01:07 <ehird> ais523: "Hello Reddit!" doesn't end with \n :P
16:01:08 <ais523> impomatic: do you require a final newline?
16:01:22 <ehird> lol google translate roundtripped silliness as stupidity
16:01:32 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.
16:01:45 <ais523> 112 characters, if I counted correctly
16:02:04 <ais523> !c printf("%d",strlen("++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+."))
16:02:18 <ais523> wow, that took longer to compile than I expected
16:02:36 <impomatic> I didn't include a newline in mine, so that beats the one I just posted: http://tr.im/v3ER
16:03:18 <ais523> this channel embarasses people; you ask a hard question, and the bots give you an answer to it in a few seconds
16:03:42 <ehird> we're at the forefront of the singularity! :p
16:03:47 <ehird> soon, we'll just replace ourselves with bots
16:03:53 <ehird> after all, the humans don't contribute all that much to the channel
16:04:14 <ais523> impomatic: your Underload suggestion is pretty short
16:05:21 <ais523> you should respond to the person who posted that awful BF with the bot's nice semi-optimised BF, though
16:05:34 <ais523> a competent human could beat it, but I'm not sure if any would be bothered
16:05:40 <ais523> (although I notice dbc is here...)
16:05:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:05:49 <ais523> (and he's /very/ good at BF golfing)
16:05:52 <pikhq> Pthing: Well, it was more "programming-esque", in that it was a textual way of composing small blocks of genes with specific functioning together.
16:06:00 <impomatic> I responded with a hand written 113 instruction BF
16:06:11 <mycroftiv> i think ive fallen into a parallel universe, i did not realize there were places where issues like 'brainfuck code quality' were actually of community interest :)
16:06:12 <Pthing> yeah, they're called codons
16:06:16 <ehird> ais523: dbc is amazing at all golfing
16:06:16 <ehird> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/siersig.c
16:06:19 <Pthing> Do you have a cite for them or something?
16:06:19 <ais523> impomatic: the response doesn't seem to have shown up
16:06:27 <ehird> the only entry to my chaos game method sierpinski golf in C :)
16:06:41 <ais523> mycroftiv: BF code quality is done as a competitive sport, because there's no other reason to do it
16:06:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: parallel universe? doesn't that contradict QUANTUM DARWINISM?
16:06:59 <ehird> SEEEEEEEEEEEEERVED
16:07:04 <Pthing> That was my first thought
16:07:19 <ehird> I'll speci your ation.
16:07:24 <pikhq> Pthing: No, it was a speech that I saw. And it was awesome.
16:07:41 <mycroftiv> ais523: to the extent i or people i knew preiously messed with brainfuck, just getting it to do anything was considered the 'badge of achievement'
16:08:05 <pikhq> mycroftiv: But that's not even all that hard!
16:08:07 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
16:08:11 <ais523> ooh, we still have choo here
16:08:14 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
16:08:19 <pikhq> You can compile C into it (not well)!
16:08:24 <fungot> Testing esting sting ting ing ng g
16:08:47 <ehird> impomatic: Maybe you're banned :)
16:08:52 <ehird> by the autospambotbannerthingy
16:09:03 <ehird> I had a thing where the author of a comment s—
16:09:12 <mycroftiv> sure, if you use the algorithmic approach, i dont see any reason why you couldnt procedurally port and build kde4 to/from brainfuck if you felt like building the necessary bits of glue, right?
16:09:31 <ehird> impomatic: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/94s1u/ohsorry/c0bfs8r
16:09:37 <ehird> so reddit may be having issues
16:09:38 <ais523> although I'm trying to do that with programs about as complicated as NetHack, via gcc-bf
16:09:42 <ais523> which I need to finish some time
16:09:57 * ais523 waits for someone to mention PSOX
16:10:20 <pikhq> I especially love how gcc-bf has filesystem emulation going.
16:10:29 <ais523> written but not tested in any way
16:10:37 <ais523> and the filesystem is slightly simpler than DOS 1's
16:11:08 <pikhq> And since the idea is to just be a hosted implementation of C, it's not like you need a *complex* filesystem.
16:11:19 <ehird> ais523: how does it compare to MFS?
16:11:32 <ais523> ehird: I don't know of MFS
16:11:45 <ais523> but basically, it's a malloced dictionary, implemented using linear search
16:11:50 <ais523> so you couldn't really get much worse
16:11:54 <ehird> ais523: it had resource forks but not directories
16:11:55 <ehird> Folders existed as a concept on the original MFS-based Macintosh, but worked completely differently from the way they do on modern systems. They were visible in Finder windows, but not in the open and save dialog boxes. There was always one empty folder on the volume, and if it was altered in any way (such as by adding or renaming files), a new Empty Folder would appear, thus providing a way to create new folders. MFS stored all of the file and directory lis
16:12:06 <ais523> well, bffs doesn't have directories at all
16:12:11 <ehird> ting information in a single file. The Finder created the "illusion" of folders, by storing all files as a directory handle/file handle pair. To display the contents of a particular folder, MFS would scan the directory for all files in that handle. There was no need to find a separate file containing the directory listing.
16:12:11 <impomatic> ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++++>+++>+++>++<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>++.<<<<++++++++++.>>.-..>------.<<----.>>>+.
16:12:17 <ehird> ais523: yes, but MFS is more perverse
16:12:24 <ehird> structured metadata but no folders… but crazily hacked up folders
16:12:33 <ais523> impomatic: at least you have 3 nested loops there, which is always fun to see
16:12:39 <ais523> ooh, and the innermost is unbalanced
16:12:49 <ais523> that must have driven you mad trying to write that
16:12:53 <ehird> i wonder if esotope can optimise that
16:13:07 <impomatic> Not really, just took five minutes
16:13:10 <pikhq> To what extent is a good question.
16:16:01 <ais523> seems I don't have a copy of in-between here to test, and I'm pretty sure I don't have a copy of esotope-bfc either
16:16:23 <mycroftiv> ok, you guys have inspired me to do something i think needs to be done - and that is write up a short paper trying to explain why i think that Zurek's work makes the idea that information theory is the fundamental ontology of the universe approach the status of 'proven, so long as QED remains experimentally valid'
16:17:04 <ais523> you only said that so you could watch people trying to parse it, didn't you?
16:17:29 <mycroftiv> ais523: if that was the case, i would have been more careful with the grammar :(
16:17:41 <mycroftiv> since trying to parse it myself reading it now, i stumble a bit
16:19:34 <ais523> it didn't help that I expanded "QED" the wrong way at a first reading
16:20:27 <mycroftiv> ais523: ouch, thats definitely an invalid typecast when i parse it that way
16:20:45 <mycroftiv> it almost godel statement's my head.
16:20:47 -!- pikhq has quit ("Lost terminal").
16:20:53 <impomatic> I been playing with a 4 instruction Forth. >R R> R@ and -
16:21:00 <ehird> impomatic: oklopol commented on that
16:21:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: "I'll gödel statement your sexual organs, if you know what I mean."
16:21:20 <ehird> (first person to use that IRL gets a cookie. a Gödel cookie.)
16:21:56 <ais523> hey, someone just prodded a page on Esolang, and we don't even have a prod template
16:22:03 <ehird> impomatic: my comment was the first one, the nitpick :P
16:22:16 <ehird> ais523: oh, right, I was going to ask you to delete two pages
16:22:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: hmm, couldnt you just embed a good old fashioned paradox in them? if you can prove a false stament, you can prove any statement, so i could then prove 'i have sex with you' to anyone i wish via the broken logical system
16:22:25 <ais523> ehird: I've probably deleted one already
16:22:40 <ais523> but http://esolangs.org/wiki/MonkeyCode is rather mystifying, it reminds me of a schrodilan which has already gone off
16:22:40 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/More, because it isn't even a language that the author of the page invented, isn't interesting, is a stupid, and is worth zilch
16:22:46 <impomatic> Thanks anonymous ;-) I left the comment, but fixed the typo
16:23:29 <ais523> ehird: I do think the idea of using #!/bin/tail is a mildly clever one (which I also came up with)
16:23:33 <ehird> ais523: The second is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute because it's semantically meaningless, the interpreter isn't, could only be created by someone with the intellect of a 2 year old and is in just about every which way pointless, but then we have precedent for keeping those sorts of pages.
16:23:35 <ais523> but I was planning to use it in esoteric Perl
16:23:42 <ehird> Also, it's so mildly clever that EVERYONE has figured it out.
16:23:45 <ehird> Besides, not a language.
16:23:50 <ais523> ehird: yes, I think we should leave it in the jokes list
16:23:59 <ais523> as it's a common and fundamental type of joke that we don't actually have yet
16:24:08 <impomatic> I'm trying to implement enough to prove that >R R> R@ and - are Turing complete.
16:24:10 <ehird> we have that, actually, ais523
16:24:28 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/QWERTY_Keyboard_Dot_Language
16:24:50 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't have the "No IO" feature that makes it implementable
16:24:53 <ais523> which is, I suspect, the real joke
16:24:58 <ais523> s/implementable/"implementable"/
16:24:58 <ehird> ais523: Compute isn't implementable, either
16:25:07 <ehird> it isn't computing if you don't actually compute it
16:25:20 <ais523> anyway, it's a bad joke, but not so bad that it's worthy of deletion
16:25:29 <ais523> and I agree, we do have precedent for keeping that sort of thing
16:25:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: actually a few quantum computing algorithms do their best to cheat on that, but i guess i wont argue the point
16:25:54 <ehird> but is it agreed that http://esolangs.org/wiki/More is an awful waste of space?
16:26:11 <ais523> ehird: I think it you could write a decent article about the subject, but that isn't it
16:26:24 <ais523> maybe as a section in a longer article about ways to abuse non-esolang programs
16:26:52 <ais523> it isn't wasting space, incidentally; deleted pages take up more space than non-deleted pages
16:26:58 <ehird> i mean semantic space
16:27:08 <ais523> it isn't in any cats, so it isn't wasting space that way either
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16:27:15 <ehird> disk space is a useless concept, anyway
16:27:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: if you are worried about the informational ethics of deleting pointless pages i advise you to apply the 'in 500 billion years nobody care and this irks my aesthetics, good bye'
16:27:19 <ehird> we can store anything these days for peanuts
16:27:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: Sorry, no; I'm a packrat. :)
16:28:02 <ais523> anyway, can anyone deduce a language spec from this: http://nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode
16:28:06 <ehird> Also, *I'd* quite like to care in roughly that time, if by sheer luck we get brain scanning before I become all stupid n' shit.
16:28:16 <ais523> hmm... let's try web archive
16:28:45 <ehird> i'm sure i've seen monkey code before
16:29:24 <ais523> http://web.archive.org/web/20050311210617/http://www.nocluestudios.com/ <--- I preferred eso-std.org's placeholder
16:29:54 <ehird> I still say :> was the narrator, not a spaceship
16:29:55 <ais523> in fact, all the pages in the web archive for nocluestudios have placeholders worded pretty similarly
16:30:04 <ais523> it hasn't archived any actual content
16:30:14 <ehird> prolly it's always been like that
16:30:24 <ais523> so, did this language ever exist?
16:30:56 <ehird> There's a tunes.org log entry about it
16:31:00 <ehird> Apparently it has no branching.
16:31:08 <ehird> and the interp only ran on windows and was closed-source
16:31:23 -!- ehird has set topic: Old dudes who know Brainfuck | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:31:25 <ais523> so, worse than deadfish?
16:31:35 <ehird> not that bad, probably
16:31:47 <ais523> still, deadfish caught on massively, somehow
16:32:12 <ehird> 10:55:56 --- join: DawnLight (n=DawnLigh@82.166.248.171) joined #esoteric
16:32:13 <ehird> 10:56:09 <DawnLight> are you guys crazy?
16:32:50 <ais523> and really, how can we respond to that?
16:33:12 <ais523> ehird: what date is the tunes.org log entry?
16:33:16 <ais523> we should link to it on the monkeycode page
16:33:23 <ehird> google the url of the site
16:33:25 <ais523> to make it actually have some content at least
16:33:47 <ais523> Your search - http://www.nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode - did not match any documents.
16:33:54 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
16:34:19 <ais523> ah, it works without the www
16:34:36 <ehird> 12:59:14 <ttm> It's 1 PM, so I should get some sleep.
16:34:40 <mycroftiv> if the creator of monkeycode knew how many neurons of the great minds of our time were pursuing his work, im sure hed be shocked
16:35:33 <ehird> we're not that clever/
16:36:37 <ehird> I'm not sure I'd be as good as programmer at all if I didn't have a computer when I was 3
16:36:41 <ais523> anyway, someone prodded for notability reasons, we don't do that on esolang
16:36:47 <ehird> mostly environment
16:37:12 <mycroftiv> you say that now, but wait until one of your clever little esoteric language loops actually happens to compile itself upon reading to neural level executable and you become the first human/algorithm hybrid consciousness
16:37:38 <ehird> but i'm planning on that!
16:38:43 <ehird> it's like a deletion vote without the voting
16:38:50 <ehird> i.e., "Hey, this should be deleted."
16:39:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: you need to contextualise!
16:39:09 <ais523> on Wikipedia, it means it can be deleted with 1 support and without objection within 7 days
16:39:17 <ais523> so it is a vote, sort of
16:39:24 <ais523> just one that has to be unanimous, and where people don't actually bother to vote
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:14:53 <ehird`> penguin benchmark avocado
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:15:13 <immibis> ?
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:15:29 <ehird`> immibis coil fortress modulo sailing
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:15:49 <immibis> ?
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:16:00 <ehird`> ?
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:16:18 <immibis> what are you talking about
16:39:31 <ehird> 15:16:38 <ehird`> deftly turtle english markup
16:42:32 <impomatic> I suppose I ought to get some programming done
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17:23:17 <oerjan> <ehird> . http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons <-- fascinating
17:23:30 <ehird> they're not really particles
17:23:41 <ehird> just like, ways to describe fluctuations between particles or sth
17:23:43 <ehird> physicist on reddit said
17:23:50 <Slereah_> Plenty of things are not real particles
17:23:52 <ehird> also there's a good thing in the io9 comments, layman explanation
17:23:57 <ehird> you can probably find the comments on reddit
17:24:11 <Slereah_> They're still the same mathematically
17:24:12 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/96j3t/electron_split_into_2_new_quantum_particles/c0bljcd
17:24:17 <ehird> ↑ angry scientist is angry
17:25:29 <Pthing> he should join the Union of Concerned Scientists
17:25:38 <Pthing> http://www.ucsusa.org/
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18:09:13 <oerjan> "Esola was a secret convent of gnostic Armenian hermits founded in Anatolia in the 9th century. Most of the monks were wiped out in 1917 in an event which the Turkish government denies to this day. A few of the monks were able to flee to America, where they founded EsolaNG."
18:10:10 <oerjan> ehird: are you not aware of our proud tradition?
18:10:48 <ehird> lol it's like, i put esola in my google field
18:11:01 <ehird> and i was like, ok, that must be EsolaNG
18:11:04 <oerjan> well i guess it _is_ secret. at least when there are turks nearby.
18:11:04 <ehird> so i typed esolang
18:11:06 <ehird> and saw "esolang wiki"
18:11:12 <ehird> well right the wikipedia article
18:12:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
19:08:33 <ehird> [[I’m sorry, I think char strings are a really bad solution, but the XML thing is just as bad. I use my own lib to make everystring a number, every word a number. Makes programs that do the same things with 100 times less code, thousands times faster, and I have measured it, this is not a theoretical statement like yours.]]
19:09:37 <ehird> Huh… CUPS is made by Apple.
19:09:42 <ehird> I assume coppro doesn't use it :-P
19:18:52 <ehird> "The top of the cube with ample room for ventilation and a slot below for DVDs or CD-ROMs. Look ma! No fans!" // yeah, right :P
19:24:05 <ais523> ehird: who said that, and why
19:24:21 <ais523> the quote just after oerjan left
19:24:30 <ais523> well, immediately after, there was quite a timelag
19:24:37 <ais523> also, aren't all strings numbers already?
19:24:50 <ehird> yeah i really don't know man
19:24:53 <ehird> it's a fucked up quote :P
19:26:53 <ehird> (the quote after that was from a review of the G4 Cube; evidently theirs had not yet overheated :P)
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20:34:12 <ehird> [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | sort | uniq -ic | sort -n | e
20:34:56 <ehird> the a to is I it you of and that in AnMaster:
20:35:18 <ehird> Things like "for", "not", "it's", "be", "has", "on", "with", "as" and "do" come below "AnMaster:".
20:35:25 <ehird> That is hilarious.
20:35:50 <ehird> to avoid dupliciciciates
20:36:53 <ehird> [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | LC_ALL=C sort -f | uniq -ic | sort -rn | tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]'
20:37:00 <ehird> add | e at the end :P
20:38:10 <ehird> Many hapax legomenons.
20:38:28 <ehird> Long tail sort of thing.
20:51:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly are you measuring there?
20:51:28 <ehird> Just read the line; it's fairly obvious.
20:51:35 <AnMaster> frequency of word in phrases directed to you? I'm not faimilar with the log format
20:51:42 <ehird> HH:MM person: text
20:52:39 <AnMaster> guess: frequency of words in what you said yourself?
20:52:44 <AnMaster> not sure what the awk bit is there for
20:54:06 <AnMaster> oh wait, must be to cut away timestamp and ehird?
20:54:13 <ehird> Yes, although "ehird" is still the top word.
20:54:18 <ehird> AnMaster: $1 = HH:MM
20:54:53 <AnMaster> btw I found a new game. Sadly it doesn't run very well on the laptop. Due to the intel graphics
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20:55:29 <AnMaster> it's "vegastrike", an open source space game. seems quite fun so far, still learning how stuff in it works though...
20:56:17 <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers?
20:56:24 <ehird> It should handle 3D better than your desktop, at least.
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21:33:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better
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21:33:54 <AnMaster> the desktop however takes ages to load the game. And swaps out other programs while doing so.
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22:00:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better
22:00:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Shoulda chosen the ATI graphics.
22:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, a geforce 7600 isn't quite as bad as you think
22:01:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the drivers
22:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. still the game vegastrike seems quite graphics intensive with shaders and what not, and I won't need that advanced graphics
22:01:28 <ehird> iirc the intel drivers are slow
22:01:34 <ehird> i mean, really slow
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ehird, any better drivers then for linux?
22:01:49 <ehird> nah; they're working on it
22:02:22 <AnMaster> btw, I found this program by idle browsing in ubuntu's add/remove programs thingy in the game category
22:02:45 <ehird> yes, that's a nice way to find neat programs
22:03:00 <AnMaster> in the "not maintained by canonical" section
22:03:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a list of other games to try out. Found a few "sounds good by really quite bad" and some "better than it sounds" ones
22:03:38 <AnMaster> in the latter category: "kiki the nanobot"
22:04:00 <ehird> AnMaster: btw select all programs, not just non-canonical
22:04:07 <ehird> otherwise you're just excluding stuff for no reason :P
22:04:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah that is what I did
22:04:24 <AnMaster> "open source non-canon(ical)" ;P
22:04:39 <ehird> the best game is xjump
22:04:53 <ehird> best action-sorta game
22:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, tried it before, and well, I just suck at it
22:05:03 <ehird> it's sort of the distilled essence of the fast-paced game
22:05:18 <ehird> turns out it's the fluff additions that make games easy :P
22:05:27 <AnMaster> anyway, their vegastrike package is a bit buggy. I'm not sure in what way, but background music only works when you docked to a space station, otherwise it spews python tracebacks in stdout
22:05:38 <ehird> that's prolly not the packaging
22:05:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it works correctly on gentoo
22:05:54 <AnMaster> using the upstream binary build
22:06:00 <ehird> drivers, infrastructure etc
22:06:36 <ehird> tbh xjump would be much easier if the whole world wasn't made of butter
22:06:50 <AnMaster> since 1) gentoo doesn't have a package for it 2) the binary package is 497 MB, most is data but it seems more of a pain to build it anyway
22:09:13 <AnMaster> oh and vegastrike might seem kind of dead when looking at their website (last commit in May) but it also seems very stable and complete, just found one minor bug/misfeature so far: they seem to use a custom font in the game, and when it is rendered at small size (only a few places, but then very long bits of text) it is very hard to read.
22:09:15 -!- M0ny has joined.
22:09:32 <AnMaster> as in, the first vertical line in M goes missing. or very faint
22:09:56 <AnMaster> I *suspect* misuse of anti-aliasing.
22:10:21 <ehird> may isn't really dead
22:10:41 <AnMaster> oh and just now: white text on slightly off white bg = bad idea
22:10:54 <AnMaster> but that seems to be due to rendering text on a surface reflecting the sun
22:10:56 <ehird> on Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:43 pm
22:11:00 <ehird> that name is in rad
22:11:05 <AnMaster> if I turn the ship around it is close to black instead
22:11:05 <ehird> in the feature requests forum
22:11:55 <AnMaster> where is that column btw? under bug tracker?
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22:14:31 <AnMaster> anyway, if you like this type of games you might want to give it a try. No idea if you a) like them b) have a computer able to handle lots of shaders and special effects (though you can use the separate program vssetup to turn some of that off, yes that is right, settings are in a separate program)
22:14:49 <ehird> what kind of game is it?
22:14:50 <AnMaster> oh another thing, it is stretched on wide screen (unless you run in windowed mode)
22:15:01 <ehird> also, I have a mildly crappy gfx card from 2006
22:15:32 <ehird> i can run games from like 2002 at full res with everything turned on at high fps, so
22:15:39 <ehird> unless it's as intensive as commercial games, prolly fine
22:15:45 <ehird> AnMaster: can't you set black bars
22:15:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well... space simulator/game. You can notice they gave a half hearted try to simulate realistic physics then gave up and added a "SPEC-drive" so the game wouldn't take so long
22:15:59 <ehird> AnMaster: strategy?
22:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you pilot a ship, so not freeciv style of stratergy
22:16:28 <AnMaster> there is combat too, haven't yet figured out how it works
22:16:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but also peaceful trading if you want
22:17:40 <AnMaster> and there is a mission computer, haven't worked that out yet either, only done simple "by cargo at planet a, go to astroid b with mining facilities and sell it, buy other cargo, go back" stuff yet
22:18:27 <AnMaster> need to earn money to be able to buy a ship able to survive in combat. I strayed into an area with pirates first. Had to restore from savegame :)
22:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, btw. you can use keyboard/mouse to control. In fact it even works quite well. Joystick is nice for when you are trying to fly into the docking port at a space station though. :)
22:20:03 <AnMaster> what is there to hate about joysticks :/
22:20:06 <ehird> Hilarious internet answer: Too phallic. Real answer: Movement isn't free-form enough, buttons are awkward.
22:20:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of joystick have you used then?
22:20:28 <AnMaster> buttons are well placed on this one
22:20:34 <ehird> nothing "high-end" or anything
22:20:53 <AnMaster> well, most, and there are enough of the well placed ones that you never need the non-well-placed ones
22:21:15 <ehird> no point spending money if i don't expect to like it
22:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and this one even doesn't need to be recalibrated very often. As in: maybe once / year or so
22:22:03 <ehird> anything that needs calibration sucks
22:22:27 <ehird> therefore, all joysticks suck.
22:22:57 <AnMaster> oh and there is no noisy potentiometers in it. It uses the hall effect to sense the position of the joystick instead. Which is really cool
22:24:13 * ehird configures LiteSwitch X to single-application mode
22:24:35 <ehird> (think: one app = one virtual desktop, pretty much)
22:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway: mouse works very well until you need to not just control pitch/yaw, but also roll. you can do it by keyboard but if you want to control speed at same time you really have a hard time compared to throttle/joystick combo
22:25:41 <ehird> I'd like a joystick that's basically a trackball with little dimples to grip
22:25:48 <ehird> AnMaster: a better cmd-tab window switcher
22:26:17 <AnMaster> interesting idea that trackball. it could handle the
22:26:23 <ehird> the single-application mode just means that whenever an application focuses, it hides all others
22:26:49 <ehird> you could also make it able to be pushed down quite a bit
22:27:02 <ehird> also, you could make the dimples be buttons
22:27:24 <ehird> i.e., the ball can be depressed
22:27:27 <ehird> (lol@that wording)
22:27:41 <AnMaster> ehird, might be hard to reach dimple-buttons when pressed down? unless I misunderstood you
22:27:47 <ehird> you'd keep your hand on it
22:27:50 <ehird> and it wouldn't go all the way
22:28:04 <ehird> you'd push with your palm
22:29:52 <AnMaster> I know people who built their own pedals for flight sim. though joysticks are probably a lot harder.
22:30:21 <AnMaster> ehird, if you push it with your palm, won't that push all the buttons too?
22:31:41 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they're dimples
22:31:55 <ehird> you'd have to get your finger n
22:32:07 <AnMaster> ah right. thought they were more shallow
22:32:15 <AnMaster> more like those on, say, a golf ball
22:32:48 <AnMaster> so you mean something between them and the whole on a bowling ball?
22:33:16 <ehird> can't really describe it
22:33:53 <ehird> of course it could only have one function
22:33:58 <ehird> and you couldn't hold and spin
22:34:43 <AnMaster> I tend to use 2-3 buttons at the same time as I'm moving the joystick, and also the throttle and some button on it
22:35:20 <AnMaster> as in, try landing in a flight sim with a harrier. that is/was the brittish jet that can land vertically
22:35:52 <AnMaster> then you need to handle pitch/yaw/roll/throttle/thrust_vector at the same time :)
22:37:48 <ehird> i'd just buy a real plane.
22:39:50 <AnMaster> ehird, would be much more expensive and, 1) getting a flight cert 2) fuel 3) the actual plane, and since iirc it is still in service... And I don't think there is a large "black" market for them.
22:40:52 <AnMaster> oh and the real aircraft *does* have a joystick. And it needs not only calibration but lots of other sorts of expensive maintenance!
22:41:36 <ehird> sweet and app that makes your cursor wrap around xD
22:42:07 <AnMaster> a bit hard to get used to I imagine...
22:42:20 <pikhq> ehird: Why yes, buying a real plane would be more fun.
22:42:25 <pikhq> But, you see, that *costs money*.
22:42:31 <ehird> easier to buy your mom
22:43:02 <pikhq> Shush you. Just because you were born of a prostitute doesn't mean everyone's mother is that way.
22:43:31 * ehird would like to make clicking the desktop -not- focus the finder…
22:43:36 * ehird looks in liteswitch x prefs
22:43:52 <pikhq> ehird: Liteswitch X?
22:44:07 <ehird> pikhq: It's an OS X application that makes switching applications Not Suck.
22:44:22 <AnMaster> "erstwhile" <-- just wondering, would any of you use this word instead of "once"?
22:44:43 <AnMaster> ehird, right. I had to define: it
22:44:44 <ehird> Because I'm not _that_ pretentious
22:45:06 <ehird> ERSTWHILE, IT DID HAPPENSTANCE UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL
22:45:32 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so you've talked to me IRL? :P
22:45:46 <ehird> pikhq: No, but if that's what you sound like I'll avoid it :P
22:46:04 <pikhq> ehird: I exaggerate.
22:46:16 <pikhq> IRL, I sound like me on IRC.
22:46:25 <pikhq> Only, more vocalising.
22:46:32 <AnMaster> "<ehird> once, IT DID coincidence UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL" <-- Is it supposed to make sense?
22:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: just s/happenstance/occur/
22:46:52 <ehird> cmd-return/shift is a nice keycombo for switching apps
22:46:56 <ehird> not like that evil cmd-tab
22:47:00 <ehird> and the rsi it doth dole out
22:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, where is the cmd key then exactly? Isn't it the one closest to the space key?
22:47:34 <ehird> control, option, cmd
22:47:45 <ehird> cmd and control are longer than option
22:47:59 <AnMaster> how can cmt-tab be *that* bad then. Ctrl-tab I would have understood better
22:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.circa1978.com/v1/images/mackeyboards_compared.jpg the bottom one
22:48:14 <ehird> also, my hands are small
22:48:18 <ehird> so i have my thumb on cmd
22:48:35 <ehird> then i have to tab multiple times
22:48:42 <ehird> compare to using the bottom of my pinky to hold tab
22:48:46 <ehird> and tapping return/shift
22:48:49 <ehird> (shift goes backwards)
22:49:17 <ehird> i could use the other cmd key
22:49:23 <ehird> but shift would still be a pain
22:49:53 <AnMaster> bottom of the pinky? Huh. *suggests raising the chair a bit*
22:50:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if I raised my chair much more, the top of my legs would hit the keyboard stand
22:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, bottom of pinky? Don't you mean the base of the finger, close to where it is attached to the hand, with that?
22:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: the top of my pinky (i.e. key-hitter) then rests on s
22:51:21 <AnMaster> well, that makes my next finger press down space if I try it on the key next to space here (which is alt)
22:51:22 <ehird> look at that pic of the kb and you get the idea
22:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: not here
22:51:45 <ehird> I don't use a home-row orientation
22:52:03 <AnMaster> how do you place your hands then?
22:52:29 <AnMaster> I'd like to see the pinky manoeuvre (sp??)
22:52:43 <AnMaster> (looks more like French to me. bah)
22:53:07 <ehird> AnMaster: or Maneuver
22:53:17 <ehird> which is more common
22:53:33 <ehird> manoeuvre - Wiktionary
22:53:34 <ehird> 9 Jun 2009 ... From the French noun manoeuvre and verb manoeuvrer, from Old French manovrer, from Vulgar Latin *manuoperare, from Latin manu (“'by hand'”) ...
22:53:35 <AnMaster> this aspell dict sucks. it thinks maneuver is invalid
22:53:40 <ehird> AnMaster: is it british english?
22:53:51 <ehird> I think maneuver is American in origin
22:54:00 <ehird> my dictionary here rejects it too
22:54:30 <AnMaster> I refuse to use a dict that things "colorize" is an existing word.
22:55:01 <ehird> and don't reply with something perscriptivist— like that—
22:55:14 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you talking in modern english?
22:55:19 <ehird> somebody just made up those words, too
22:55:42 * AnMaster declares jashdflkaeiljahalqjvc to be a word
22:55:55 <ehird> sure, if you convince a lot of people to
23:09:27 <ehird> Dear Google: I searched "disable dock leopard", not "disable 3d dock leopard".
23:14:01 <ehird> "Home Folder, other folders - I will never understand these as I am the only user on my computer. I want everything as close to the main drives as possible."
23:14:01 <ehird> Sometimes, I think instating a law that you only have free speech if you know what the fuck you're talking about would be a good thing.
23:15:08 <ehird> An idiot whining about idiotic things on some random mac forum I found while googling.
23:15:19 <ehird> [[I guess I get so upset with the braindead design of the function of most of these programs because they have so much potential. Its like you have somebody that does some excellent groundwork, then some illogical, prancing, faggot in drag wants to make things pretty and ruins all the planning of the previous designer who was laying out the groundwork so meticulously. And then the upper management OK's the pretty boy ignoring the logic shown beforehand.]]
23:16:17 <pikhq> Good description of Windows. Except that there's no excellent groundwork.
23:23:44 <ehird> - Configure Overflow to my liking
23:35:31 <GregorR-L> - (Continue to) Configure #esoteric to my liking
23:35:31 <ehird> <GregorR-L> - Configure ehird to my liking
23:36:02 <GregorR-L> I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine"
23:37:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: I cannot figure out how to fit [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine" into any sort of context whatsoever.
23:38:15 <ehird> But if you're fucking cauliflower, why not use a tractor?
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23:50:15 <augur> the machine is gaying
23:50:18 <augur> its becoming more and more gay
23:50:34 <ehird> no, I think the machine makes things older and gayer
23:50:46 <ehird> now how on earth that relates to anything GregorR-L… I have no clue
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23:51:19 <oerjan> it's a homogeneous machine?
23:52:21 <ehird> [23:35] ehird: <GregorR-L> - Configure ehird to my liking
23:52:21 <ehird> [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine"
23:52:28 <ehird> thinking + science = COMPREHENSION
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23:53:11 <pikhq> I am not entirely sure why you also want it to be a gaying machine.
23:53:32 <ehird> Uhh… I'm gonna assume that if, to make someone to your liking, you need to make them more gay, then that makes you gay.
23:53:32 <GregorR-L> I have peculiar notions of what the definition of "liking" is? :P
23:53:47 <ehird> But that's just me, what with my science and all.
23:53:52 <oerjan> ehird: you know, even _i_ am close to accepting that logic
23:53:59 <ehird> It makes you go upwards and rightwards.
23:54:20 <GregorR-L> I wouldn't apply the gaying machine to women, I'll have a separate straighting machine if necessary for that.
23:55:01 <oerjan> i guess choosing between the machines would be a bifurcation
23:55:15 <ehird> no that's if he's a furry
23:56:46 <ehird> Better a bi furry vacation!
23:56:55 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bi-furry
23:57:18 <GregorR-L> One of my colleagues here is a furry >_> ... it's ... awkward?
23:57:34 <oerjan> i am starting to dislike google's tendency to give hits that don't actually exist in the page
23:57:49 <oerjan> (vocation is nowhere to be seen)
23:58:14 <GregorR-L> I think if you quote it it won't do that.
23:59:03 <GregorR-L> It just occurred to me that I'm on a vocation vacation ... I think?
23:59:40 <oerjan> you're not supposed to think on vacation
23:59:52 <GregorR-L> Then I guess it's not a vacation at all :P
00:00:09 <ehird> i'm pretty sure i know like a furry or two
00:02:05 <ehird> THIS DOTH PISS ME OFF
00:02:13 <ehird> I just want to get rid of that damn dock >_<
00:02:39 <oerjan> don't be a dick, duck the dock
00:03:55 * ehird resorts to google searches like "i hate the dock" and "obliterate dock"
00:05:39 <ehird> has been for N time
00:05:50 <ehird> GregorR-L: it's mostly just "HURR REMOVE THE REFLECTIVE DOCK"
00:05:54 <ehird> whereas i want the whole thing gone
00:06:13 -!- HackEgo has joined.
00:06:40 <ehird> `translateto hu HUR HUR HUR
00:06:48 <ehird> `translatefromto en hu HUR HUR HUR
00:07:06 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en HOW HOW HOW
00:08:04 <oerjan> i don't think W is used much in hungarian
00:08:26 <oerjan> `translatefromto hu en HOGY HOGY HOGY
00:09:10 <oerjan> `translatefromto hu en HOGY HOGY HOGY HOGY
00:09:13 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy, hogy, hogy hogy hogy hogy; hogy! Hogy, hogy. Hogy, hogy hogy.
00:09:15 <HackEgo> How to to to to to that, that! How to. How, how.
00:11:22 <ehird> So if you want to ask someone "how do I do that?" brokenly, you can say "Hogy hogy hogy?".
00:11:40 <oerjan> the "that" is in the conjunction sense, iirc.
00:13:21 <ehird> oerjan: "How do I do hard things?" → "Hogy hogy hogy [which is hard]".
00:13:23 <oerjan> i didn't know about the "to" sense
00:13:50 <oerjan> `translatefromto en hu How do I do hard things?
00:13:52 <HackEgo> How do I do kemény dolgokat?
00:13:55 <ehird> I like how "Hogy, hogy hogy" becomes "How, how".
00:14:02 <ehird> I'MA JUST IGNORE THIS ONE RIGHT HEERE
00:14:21 <ehird> `translatefromto en hu that which is hard
00:14:26 <oerjan> `translatefromto en hu How can I do hard things?
00:14:28 <HackEgo> How can I do kemény dolgokat?
00:14:29 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemény
00:14:36 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny
00:15:18 <GregorR-L> `addquote <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
00:15:26 <HackEgo> 57|<ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
00:15:59 <ehird> laughing while drink is in your mouth is hard
00:16:14 <ehird> well doesn't have to be drinkable
00:16:16 <ehird> could be any liquid
00:16:29 <pikhq> So, Hungarian is hard to translate. Got it.
00:17:13 <oerjan> `translatefromto en hu How is babby formed?
00:18:50 <ehird> `translate fromto en hu How hard is that
00:18:52 <HackEgo> fromto en hu How hard is that
00:18:52 <ehird> `translatefromto en hu How hard is that
00:19:16 <ehird> What does "hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny" mean?
00:19:22 <oerjan> "az" actually means that, btw
00:19:50 <pikhq> `translatefromto en hu Hogy az hogy
00:19:58 <pikhq> `translatefromto hu en Hogy az hogy
00:20:10 <oerjan> well ami kemeny you already translated. ami is a relative pronoun btw.
00:20:25 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy ami hogy kemeny hogy hogy
00:20:28 <Azstal> well, "hogyhogy" is an expression of surprise, unrelated to hogy
00:20:37 <oerjan> `translatefromto hu en Hogy az
00:20:42 <ehird> that just makes it even better
00:21:08 <ehird> Azstal: so is there anything hogy DOESN'T mean in hungarian? :D
00:21:44 <oerjan> az also is the definite article in front of vowels
00:22:50 <pikhq> ehird: Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious.
00:24:43 <ehird> beh, someone fix this
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00:26:21 <Azstal> `translatefromto hu en Hogy-hogy, hogy érted, hogy "Hogyan"?
00:26:23 <HackEgo> How to ĂŠrted "how"?
00:27:07 <pikhq> Non-unicode must DIE.
00:28:09 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Non-Unicode Character Sets — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:28:58 -!- ehird has set topic: society for solving the REAL fucking problem — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:29:13 <ehird> (the REAL fucking problem is usually wanting to do something practical)
00:29:19 <pikhq> ehird: Thou art a dumbass.
00:29:22 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Non-Unicode Character Sets — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:29:33 <oerjan> ehird: now _that_ is a topic i simply refuse to believe for this channel
00:29:38 -!- ehird has set topic: society for solving the REAL fucking problem — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:29:49 <ehird> oerjan: as I said, (the REAL fucking problem is usually wanting to do something practical)
00:30:50 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Unicde -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:30:59 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Unicode -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:31:40 <oerjan> it's not lexically scoped
00:32:11 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yeþ, I know.
00:33:00 <pikhq> I've alſo got a bad caſe of þe ſ-eþ.
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01:15:02 <ehird> coppro: you need to uninstall CUPS, quick!
01:15:20 <pikhq> So, I feel like learning Parsec. Let's see about writing, oh, an IRC parser.
01:15:27 <ehird> coppro: Apple make it!!
01:15:32 <ehird> pikhq: barely anything to lawn
01:16:05 <pikhq> Probably won't take me long to write this parser.
01:16:51 <pikhq> Heck, might not be hard to make it a full client or some such.
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01:31:56 <pikhq> Okay, so I think I adore Parsec.
01:36:09 <coppro> compiling a big project with libstdc++'s pedantic mode
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01:36:44 <coppro> hmm... does there exist a langage where operator precedence is determined by whitespace?
01:37:00 <ehird> merd, for instance
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01:51:07 <GregorR-L> There is even at least one pseudo-real language, Fortress.
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02:56:19 <immibis> Has anyone had the following error compiling the Linux kernel, and does anyone know how to fix it? "/(path)/linux-2.6.30.4/usr/Makefile:50: *** target pattern contains no '%'. Stop."
02:56:54 <GregorR-L> That's bizarre ... make --version?
03:07:58 <immibis> The line is "$(deps_initramfs):" (which seems rather pointless)
03:08:25 <immibis> commenting out that line causes the same error on "$(deps_initramfs): klibcdirs" (which also seems pointless as it could be combined with the previous line)
03:09:33 <immibis> is there a way i can have make output the value of deps_initramfs?
03:10:00 <immibis> which also does not seem to be set anywhere (???)
03:10:41 <immibis> the path does not contain : (since googling told me that would cause the problem)
03:14:53 <GregorR-L> (A makefile which won't load because it has above mentioned weird error)
03:21:06 <coppro> it will execute arbitrary commands; echo seems like a perfect candidate
03:21:13 <GregorR-L> Because ... the makefile won't load? So it wouldn't actually run the echo line, no matter where you put it?
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04:57:21 <coppro> interesting... fair dealing, while less braod in Canada, is considered a right, not a defense
04:58:24 <pikhq> In the US, the precedent is that fair use is the only reason copyright law is constitutional.
04:59:06 <coppro> yes, but in the US it's considered a defense, not a right, so you cannot, for instance, sue for restriction of fair use
04:59:32 <coppro> whereas apparently in Canada it is actually a right, so in theory you could sue for restriction of it
04:59:46 <coppro> though I'd have to read the SCC judgment
05:00:00 <pikhq> Unfortunately, the only way to do that would be massive copyright reform -- and while we're at it, we may as well fix all the rest.
05:00:14 <pikhq> Which would make that much less needed.
05:03:15 <coppro> ah, it's pretty explicit "The fair dealing exception, like other exceptions in the Copyright Act, is a user’s right."
05:04:26 <coppro> though it doesn't mean you could necessarily sue over it
05:17:06 <mycroftiv> as a practical matter, courts tend to very strongly support the status quo interpretation of laws and the interests of property and rights holders against legal theories (even sensible ones) that would tend to disrupt them.
05:20:02 <coppro> yes, but the text I quoted is directly from an SCC ruling
05:21:48 <mycroftiv> is the idea that you could attack DRM with it?
05:22:25 <coppro> if it was stupidly restrictive
05:22:38 <mycroftiv> find a lawyer who could start a class action suit on behalf of consumers with the tort being that their property right of fair dealing was taken?
05:24:57 <coppro> I'm not saying it's likely
05:25:21 <mycroftiv> im honestly interested, the 'use the system against itself' style reform often has a better chance of success (copyleft in general has worked well for isntance)
05:26:36 <mycroftiv> no, citizen of the world, fighting for information freedom everywhere (*gives the EFF salute*)
05:27:01 <coppro> you know what's funny that I just realized?
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05:27:50 <coppro> suppose you brought this against a record company. In Canada, it's not illegal yet to circumvent protection measures. So they could probably defend themselves by bringing that up. But they're probably too arrogant to do so.
05:28:32 <coppro> although they don't have good standing with the Canadian courts
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05:37:13 <pikhq> GregorR: You remember your odd experiments with Javascript 3D rendering?
05:37:18 <pikhq> http://deanm.github.com/pre3d/monster.html You just got one-upped.
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06:55:31 <mycroftiv> im trying to find my copy of the classic 'information theory and its engineering applications' book, but the entropy of my house is too high for me to uncover the signal
06:57:29 <oerjan> alas, it is well known that decreasing entropy in a system requires applying work to it
06:59:33 <mycroftiv> i have an interesting related theorem i believe
07:00:01 <mycroftiv> again, without work to replenish, the information content of bookshelves decreases, because ONLY THE BOOKS YOU ACTUALLY USE will ever be 'lost' from them
07:00:22 <mycroftiv> all of the books that you never take off the shelf just stay there, but every book you actually take off the shelf has a finite positive chance of loss
07:01:01 <oerjan> just as long as you don't get book worms
07:01:44 <mycroftiv> yes, as always its hard to nail down those boundary conditions precisely
07:02:11 <mycroftiv> completely loss due to fire does indeed have a way of inverting the situation, where only the books checked OUT from the libarary might be preserved
07:02:28 <mycroftiv> if everyone who checked out books from the library of alexandria had stolen them, would we be better off>?
07:03:00 * mycroftiv returns to bookshelf and bookpile rummaging
07:04:03 <oerjan> a very hypatical question
07:07:13 <mycroftiv> true, although given the 'doesnt remove the original' aspect of digital data, as a thought experiment it gives the pro-piracy argument some moral force in terms of 'we are acting to preserve data for future generations, in the large scale, despite our self-interested motives of the moment'
07:11:54 <mycroftiv> sometime last year i spent an entire day retracing my steps of the previous day to find this EXACT book, which i had left sitting on the grass where i had been reading it in a park
07:12:05 <mycroftiv> something about this particularly treasured volume makes it try to escape from me!
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12:34:32 <ehird> [[Actually, all bullshit aside, I do have an idea for an application that will (edit legally) put money in your bank account every time you press a button in Firefox.
12:34:33 <ehird> However, I don't have the skills to write such an application (which would be nothing more than an adaptation of existing open source software), so I'm keeping my mouth shut until I save
12:34:33 <ehird> up a grand or so to rent a coder. Or find a genuine interested party that would be willing to sign an agreement, write the code and split the profits with me - a 30% me /60% you /10% overhead split would be generous, I believe.]]
12:34:33 <ehird> I so hope this idiot tries to sell whatever it is, that'd just be hilarious
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12:44:29 <ehird> "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?"
12:44:30 <ehird> — Sony CEO on the PS3
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14:06:27 <ehird> "The choice of power cord one makes to transmit AC over the final feet to a component has the potential to be the most influential sonic link in a music system's power chain."
14:06:27 <ehird> — lol, audiophiles
14:08:20 <Pthing> they pretty much admit it's magic
14:11:51 <ehird> anyone who cares about that stuff should just read http://hydrogenaudio.org/ (where they use crazy things like logic and the scientific method) and be done with it
14:11:57 <ehird> i used to, to a degree
14:11:59 <ehird> don't really any more
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14:41:41 <ais523> this is a rather vacuous conversation, isn't it?
14:41:51 <ais523> 8 minutes of nothing but whitespace...
15:27:50 <ehird> In[6]:= Sum[i, {i, 0, n}]
15:27:50 <ehird> Out[6]= 1/2 n (1 + n)
15:27:50 <ehird> In[7]:= Sum[i, {i, 1, n}]
15:27:50 <ehird> Out[7]= 1/2 n (1 + n)
15:28:01 <ehird> God, I'm stupid today.
15:28:07 <ehird> I need to sleep better.
15:28:11 <ehird> I've been the dumb recently.
15:28:31 <ehird> puzzlet: lucky you aren't blind
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19:17:14 <ehird> wtf is with the quiet
19:17:20 <ehird> everyone going to church or something :D
19:17:26 <ais523> I'm busy playing pokemon, zzo38-style
19:18:20 <ehird> ais523: but still text based? :P
19:18:38 <ais523> there's a couple of small graphics in the corner, to make it look more graphical
19:18:41 <ais523> but the text log is the useful bit
19:18:50 <ehird> ais523: what is this, exactly?
19:18:58 <ais523> Shoddy Battle, it's a pokemon simulator
19:19:46 <ehird> ais523: i'd just use an emulator and that thingy that uses a networked computer as a connected second gameboy :-P
19:20:25 <ais523> simulators are better for practice, because you don't have to catch the pokemon first; you can request any pokemon that it's theoretically possible to get, no matter how unlikely
19:21:26 <ehird> ais523: emulators come with hex-editing thingamajic
19:21:30 <ais523> I think that's how NetBattle (presumably the 'pocket monster IRC' that zzo38 used) works
19:21:31 <ehird> admittedly, more of a fuss
19:21:34 <ehird> but more realistic
19:21:35 <ais523> ehird: also more illegal
19:21:48 <ehird> editing some bits in memor yisn't illegal
19:21:52 <ais523> no, but the emulator is
19:21:57 <ehird> ais523: No, it's not.
19:22:01 <ehird> Emulation is not illegal.
19:22:01 <ais523> because it implies you have an illegal copy of pokemon
19:22:03 <coppro> emulators are legal; the game images may not be
19:22:06 <ehird> No it does not, ais523.
19:22:10 <ais523> it's the game image I was talking about
19:22:25 <ehird> (a) you could make a device to read it from a cartridge (b) You *already paid for it/
19:22:36 <ehird> ais523: also, zzo made that himself, like everything
19:22:40 <coppro> depends on copyright law in your country
19:23:08 <ais523> if it turns out zzo38 invented NetBattle, I'll really laugh my head out
19:23:14 <ais523> although, more likely it was a different one
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21:45:02 <ehird> draft-n wifi can transfer an uncompressed 1920x1200 screenshot over tcp/ip in 0.70s
21:45:25 <ehird> add a bit of compression and use a single-purpose protocol and you're pretty close to having a wireless screen
21:46:10 <ehird> compression, you could easily get like 0.3s
21:46:23 <ehird> single purpose, well the maximum theoretical throughput is like >400mbit
21:46:28 <ehird> so if we say 400mbit
21:47:54 <ehird> and i'm sure there's faster protocols than wireless.n
21:48:09 <ehird> s/wireless\.n/draft-n wifi/
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22:05:54 <fizzie> Well, that DisplayLink thing does 1920x1200 over USB 2; and WirelessUSB/UWB say they can provide the equivalent 480 Mbit/s for 3 meters.
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22:44:04 <ehird> In 2008, DisplayLink announced the first Wireless USB products powered by their technology. To date they have announced products or partnerships with Wireless USB technology vendors Alereon[8], Realtek[9], and WiQuest[10].
22:44:29 <ehird> In May 2009, DisplayLink launched its second semiconductor product family, the DL-125, DL-165, and DL-195 USB 2.0 graphics devices. This DL-1x5 family brings improved performance, an increase in maximum resolution to 2048x1152, and the integration of a DVI transmitter and video DAC. The first products to ship with the new DL-1x5 chips were the Samsung Lapfit LD190G and LD220G monitors.[12]
22:45:00 * oerjan doesn't understand enough to know why that is a lol
22:45:04 <ehird> fizzie: but can it handle 60fps/sec always?
22:45:15 <ehird> oerjan: it's exactly what fizzie's just said, except already thought of
22:45:31 <ehird> An upcoming 1.1 specification will increase speed to 1 Gbit/s and working frequencies up to 6 GHz.
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22:52:46 <fizzie> They don't much talk about framerates, but since some form of compression is involved, it might have a bit unstable worst-case behaviour.
22:53:39 <fizzie> I mean, their marketing literature is the typical "DisplayLink DL2+ adaptive compression scheme ensures a highly interactive, ultra low latency user experience that is nearly indistinguishable from a traditional monitor connection", but the terms "ultra low" and "nearly" aren't defined anywhere.
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22:57:13 <fizzie> Single-link DVI (which is enough for 1920x1200 at 60 Hz) data-carrying bandwidth is 3.96 Gbit/s, apparently, so that's what it takes to push an unmodified DVI signal through. (165 MHz clock, one pixel/clock, 24 bits per pixel.)
22:57:34 <ehird> that's a lot of gbits.
22:57:55 <fizzie> USB 3 will do 4.8 Gbit/s, they say.
22:58:02 <ehird> fizzie: but ehh how much is that just blargh metadata
22:58:38 <fizzie> i sleep now that i slashed it up! so everybody could get down wit this slang teenagers use now. nice talk. then again, reality is usually more clumsy than what?
22:59:18 <ehird> fizzie: shut up, fungot
22:59:18 <fungot> ehird: very little requires lap hackery.) in a function name and arguments as opposed to fnord
22:59:24 <ehird> fungot: i said shut up
22:59:25 <fungot> ehird: " i went and implemented them.)) be considered a pattern comprising a subset of l(lbas)), not y.
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22:59:50 <fizzie> Lap-hackery sounds a bit indecent. Sort of a mixture of a lap-dance and hacking. (Okay, really gone now.)
23:00:35 <ehird> fizzie: oh, "i sleep now"
23:00:44 <ehird> fizzie: you should make it a /quit script
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23:09:38 <Gracenotes> god.. sometimes reading stackoverflow, it seems the stupid is seeping into my head. make it stop ;_;
23:12:15 <oerjan> i believe there is a button on your computer that will make it stop. it may have symbol something like a circle interrupted with a crossing bar at the top.
23:13:23 <Gracenotes> hm, I should try that sometime. but I think I've already solved it by clicking on an orange square with a white x through it.
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23:17:18 <ehird> Gracenotes: why would you ever read stackoverflow?
23:18:00 <Gracenotes> boredom. getting consensus of general developer community. lolling.
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23:19:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: stack overflow is the retarded cousin of the "general developer community"
23:19:33 <oerjan> so for the second, you basically find herding cats too unchallenging?
23:20:38 <Gracenotes> ehird: it is my unfounded opinion that it is actually a pretty accurate cross-section
23:20:45 <ehird> your opinion sucks
23:23:57 <Gracenotes> ehird: so anyway, you're saying most developers are smarter than those on SO?
23:25:00 <ehird> no, I'm just saying that SO sucks :P
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23:29:45 <oerjan> i have just deduced the consensus of all life forms. it appears to be "breed furiously by cell division"
23:31:13 <oerjan> there were some giant forms suggesting something called "sex", but they were such a tiny minority they could just be ignored.
23:31:53 <Slereah_> We can nuke everything away if we want to
23:32:37 <oerjan> i am doubtful of that.
23:32:52 <oerjan> there are apparently life forms deep in the earth's crust
23:36:35 <ehird> we could probably nuke them too
23:40:00 <Gracenotes> okay... Ubuntu update time.. this will be a painful 2 days... *prepares to take it like a man*
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23:41:17 <pikhq> oerjan: Not to mention the bottom of the ocean.
23:41:32 <ehird> Gracenotes: Two days?
23:41:46 <ehird> This is a new variant of Ubuntu of which I was not previously aware.
23:41:57 <ehird> Specifically, where updating to the next release takes two days, not an hour.
23:42:11 <pikhq> I haven't really ever read Stackoverflow.
23:42:19 <Gracenotes> ehird: probably. I'm doing two OS version updates, plus the hundreds of libraries I've needed to update for some time, and all over wireless.
23:42:26 <ehird> so, basically Gracenotes
23:42:30 <pikhq> I shall read it, and soon after become homicidal.
23:42:31 <ehird> you disabled the automatic update daemon
23:42:43 <ehird> and neglected to upgrade for a major release
23:42:48 <ehird> question, Gracenotes
23:42:52 <ehird> why are you stupid?
23:42:58 <Gracenotes> stfu. I stuck with 8.04 because it was convenient, and stable.
23:43:08 <ehird> It sure is looking convenient now. 2 days, cool cool.
23:43:18 <ehird> Similarly, I'm using Windows 3.11.
23:43:25 <ehird> After all, it has an IRC client.
23:43:29 <Gracenotes> but now there is an app-need-threshold
23:43:37 <pikhq> You are apparently used to Windows. Which updates once every decade.
23:43:51 <Gracenotes> ehird: lots of people use 8.04. I AM PROUD TO BE ONE OF THEM
23:44:00 <ehird> I AM PROUD TO HAVER UPPERCASE LETTERS
23:44:05 <pikhq> "Avoid recursion".
23:44:27 <ehird> pikhq: Recursion -is- low level, but that's probably not what they meant.
23:44:30 <ehird> Gracenotes: Anyway, doesn't excuse ignoring the "HEY, YOU, UPDATE THESE PACKAGES" icon.
23:44:38 <ehird> That takes 5 minutes, tops. Click, click, ignore.
23:44:41 <Gracenotes> ehird: eh? I update packages regularly.
23:44:47 <ehird> "plus the hundreds of libraries I've needed to update for some time"
23:44:56 <Gracenotes> yes, because they are not available with this OS
23:45:09 <pikhq> ehird: For a recursive-decent parser in a C-oid language.
23:45:11 <ehird> I will never understand people who don't upgrade regularly.
23:45:26 <Gracenotes> I do fucking update my libraries regularly, but some of the latest versions are not available for 8.04
23:45:30 <pikhq> Gracenotes, why are you dumb?
23:45:34 <ehird> pikhq: maybe if you're parsing a 2 gig file consisting ((((…()…))))
23:45:41 <ehird> Gracenotes: I meant the OS, too.
23:45:51 <pikhq> Embrace the package manager.
23:45:57 <ehird> It's really silly to disregard new OS updates because, on the face of it, you don't need anything in them.
23:46:06 <Gracenotes> what are you all talking about. I use the update manager regularly.
23:46:16 <ehird> Then what are you doing?
23:46:20 <ehird> Upgrading your faeries?
23:46:50 <pikhq> aptitude update;aptitude safe-upgrade -- is that hard to get?
23:47:04 <ehird> Use the upgrade manager in Ubuntu.
23:47:22 <ehird> Gracenotes: Stop breaking things.
23:47:26 <pikhq> ehird: For upgrading major versions, sure.
23:47:28 <ehird> You shouldn't do bad things.
23:47:30 <ehird> pikhq: That's what he's doing.
23:47:34 <Gracenotes> the aptitude update does not include the OS.
23:47:54 <ehird> True. "aptitude update" (a) is using aptitude, which is silly and (b) updates the list of packages.
23:47:58 <ehird> It doesn't upgrade anything.
23:48:10 <ehird> (I'm a bastard because I care, I swear.)
23:48:15 <Gracenotes> you are aware that all Ubuntu versions use different repositories? Hence package upgrading is implied in OS upgrade?
23:48:42 <ehird> What you're saying is completely true and utterly irrelevant to anything I'm saying.
23:49:03 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Yes, but that's beside the point. UPGRADE AT MAJOR VERSIONS.
23:49:19 <ehird> We're such angry defenders of the One True Way of computing.
23:49:21 <ehird> We need a team name.
23:49:28 <ehird> Like… the GOOD COMPUTERIZORS.
23:49:58 <Gracenotes> it was new when it came out. it's called complacency, and IT IS OKAY! *makes peace sign*
23:50:00 <pikhq> (which in Linux-land is about on par with trying to upgrade a system from DOS 6.0 to Vista)
23:50:20 <ehird> It was released in April.
23:50:23 <pikhq> ehird: I exaggerate.
23:50:25 <ehird> Your years are… weird :P
23:50:34 <ehird> pikhq: It's not even been a year since the release he's running :P
23:50:50 <pikhq> ehird: Wait, Ubuntu does majors more than twice a year?
23:50:52 <ehird> But srsly guys, update. There's a reason software is changed.
23:50:56 <ehird> pikhq: Six-month cycle.
23:51:08 <pikhq> And he said he's two majors behind...
23:51:13 <ehird> But he also said 8.10.
23:51:20 <ehird> pikhq: he may be updating to the Karmic beta
23:51:33 <ehird> Which is rather silly.
23:51:33 <Gracenotes> 8.04 was released April 2008, which I'm using
23:51:38 <ehird> Gracenotes: oh god.
23:51:39 <pikhq> And didn't he say 8.04, not 8.10?
23:51:49 <ehird> Dayum Gracenotes, you bitch dumb.
23:52:04 <ehird> (bitch dumb, n. Ghettorifically dumb.)
23:52:08 <Gracenotes> 8.10 was released October 2008, which I was busy studying and doing homework and generally being too busy to update
23:52:17 <pikhq> Gracenotes: You are upgrading less often than Debian does stable releases.
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23:52:24 <ehird> You do realise upgrading to Ubuntu takes one click and it does it in the background, right?
23:52:28 <ehird> Then you just reboot in an hour?
23:52:43 <ehird> That's some epic studying/homework/business that prevents you doing it.
23:52:46 <Gracenotes> honestly I have somewhat of a sound-breaking phobia
23:52:56 <ehird> If it breaks your sound u did it rong.
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23:53:05 <Gracenotes> once I held off a kernel upgrade for a month because I was afraid of sound-breaking
23:53:13 <Gracenotes> that's how bitch dumb I am! and proud of it!
23:53:17 <ehird> You need a therapist. :P
23:54:08 <pikhq> ehird: He does have a point, though: Ubuntu has done fucking weird things with their sound in the past year or so.
23:54:12 <ehird> You know, I hate sound systems. They're so analogue.
23:54:18 <ehird> Why can't we have digital speakers? ;_;
23:54:28 <Gracenotes> no, ALSA... I must come back to it, like an abused housewife
23:54:29 <pikhq> They switched to PulseAudio... And they used a broken build of it.
23:54:38 <ehird> pikhq: oh ubuntu have a ton of fuckups
23:55:21 <Gracenotes> maybe in two months I'll get back to you
23:55:47 <ehird> Gracenotes: I suggest you try Arch, so that it can sneak all its upgrades in as innocuous standard package upgrade fare.
23:55:58 <ehird> It's For Your Own Good(TM).
23:57:24 <ehird> Gracenotes: I'm a computherapist.
23:57:36 <ehird> I prescribe the solution that will ease your ailments.
23:57:49 <pikhq> Gracenotes, you have no right to talk. A year in Linux of no updates is like a decade in Windows-land.
23:57:54 <Gracenotes> my software sources preferences indicate that I only upgrade to long term support releases
23:57:58 <pikhq> Shit changes fast.
23:58:06 <ehird> (Sometimes it's placebo; I once rebranded Ubuntu as Gobuntu — without modification — to appease a freetard who longed for integration and hardware support.)
23:58:12 <ehird> ((Oh wait, that actually happened. :P))
23:58:59 <Gracenotes> "New distribution release '8.10' is available." See?? Ubuntu says it's new!
00:00:50 <Gracenotes> ooh, it's really picking up now, 56 KB/s
00:00:50 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:01:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: 700KB/s in your face bitch.
00:01:20 <pikhq> Gracenotes: 56 kilobytes per second is tolerable.
00:01:33 <pikhq> I miss my campus Internet connection, though.
00:01:39 <pikhq> 10 megabits/sec. :D
00:01:59 <ehird> <korea> 131072KB/s in your face bitch.
00:02:37 <ehird> pikhq: Seriously? You can get 24mbit/s for, like, regular internet prices in the UK, as long as you don't live somewhere odd like me.
00:02:46 <Gracenotes> I do miss my campus connection too, it peaked at 800 KB/s, but better than this
00:03:00 <ehird> And we even have fibre-optic 25/50mbit in some places.
00:03:04 <pikhq> ehird: Erm. Actually, I think that was s/bits/bytes/
00:03:05 <ehird> And Scandinavia has 100mbit up the wazoo.
00:03:21 <ehird> Korea has 1Gbit, but I don't think servers are fast enough :P
00:03:24 <pikhq> And yes, seriously. You can hardly get 10mbit/s here.
00:03:37 <ehird> Some internet guy's grandma got 4Gbit as a promotional thingy to encourage companies to speed up the interwebs.
00:03:52 <ehird> pikhq: so you got ~80mbit
00:03:55 <pikhq> Here in the US, that would be 50Mbit.
00:04:13 <Gracenotes> dude, 1586 software packages are going to be upgraded to 8.10
00:04:23 <ehird> Gracenotes: That's… not a lot.
00:04:39 <ehird> pikhq: I conjecture that US technology sucks so much because you have a shitty economy.
00:04:44 <ehird> Gracenotes: Peanuts.
00:05:27 <ehird> Gracenotes: n-draft, bitch.
00:05:32 <ehird> 100mbit/sec TCP/IP wireless.
00:05:42 <ehird> Most wireless chips support it nowadays and routers are affordable.
00:06:04 <Gracenotes> plus, I think my ISP has it out for me ;_;
00:06:44 <ehird> ALL TECHNOLOGY SUCKS
00:07:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:07:39 <ehird> I WILL NOW SOLVE THE EVERYTHING PROBLEM BY ENSLAVING EVERYONE
00:07:45 <ehird> AND FORCING THEM TO MAKE THINGS THAT DO NOT SUCK
00:08:10 <Gracenotes> let me see.. which video had I downloaded.. ah. Team America time
00:34:32 <ehird> it's nice to only have one app at once
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00:57:11 <ehird> [[Wrong again. It's an ancient Zionist symbol for "jew-gold".]]
01:01:23 <pikhq> I know of no context where that is *not* a blatantly antisemetic comment.
01:01:43 <ehird> pikhq: When it's part of a reddit joke-thread.
01:01:56 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/96vkn/inwe_trust_start_the_movement/c0bmz17
01:03:22 <ehird> It's also possible to oppose zionism but not jews, but obviously that comment wouldn't exactly fit that if it were serious.
01:04:51 -!- p4yn0 has joined.
01:05:18 <ehird> Who're you, where did you come from, and where am I?
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01:05:46 <mycroftiv> who was the originator of the quote "wherever you go, there you are"
01:06:07 <ehird> http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture4.html
01:06:16 <ehird> According to Danial M, "The quotation is much more ancient ... from around 1440 AD. You can find the following quote at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2006/002/14.73.html : "So, the cross is always ready and waits for you everywhere. You cannot escape it no matter where you run, for wherever you go you are burdened with yourself. Wherever you go, there you are." —Thomas a Kempis, Imitation of Christ, ca. A.D. 1440
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01:07:01 <ehird> Well, that guy wouldn't have lasted long anyway.
01:07:09 <mycroftiv> um, sorry for being offtopic and alienating him, or whatever happened
01:07:17 <ehird> Sorry for being offtopic?
01:09:26 <mycroftiv> i certainly struck gold with that random question, seems like further scholarship is definitely needed
01:11:28 <ehird> i wish i had the ability to be interested in utterly boring things :(
01:12:01 <mycroftiv> im interested in everything, sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:12:23 <GregorR-L> `addquote <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:12:25 <HackEgo> 58|<mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:13:24 <ehird> mycroftiv: can i take a guess at the secret to such interest?
01:13:28 <ehird> the guess is "lots and lots of drugs"
01:13:49 <ehird> (failing that, "insanity")
01:14:08 <pikhq> ehird: I have similar problems from time to time.
01:14:20 <ehird> It sounds wonderful!
01:14:29 <mycroftiv> thats probably correct, its been a long time since 'the day' but i think i probably blew out (or woke up) some unusual synaptic structures duing the years 1990-97 or so
01:14:33 <pikhq> Well, for certain definitions of "problem".
01:14:44 <pikhq> ehird, 's called "autism".
01:15:06 <ehird> It's called autism if you define autism to be not being able to get out of bed because the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective.
01:15:15 <ehird> This would happen to be a definition without much precedent.
01:15:31 <pikhq> Just an aspect thereof.
01:15:38 <pikhq> Crap definition for it, though.
01:15:42 <ehird> Fun fact: Autism makes you shit flowers, rainbows and a keen interest in stamps.
01:15:53 <ehird> Also, you can fly.
01:15:57 <pikhq> Makes you shit a keen interest in stamps?
01:16:15 <mycroftiv> ehird: as for the 'you can fly' - google some disney movie called 'the boy who could fly' - PROVEN FACT!
01:16:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: Hmm. That makes me want a smopes.com.
01:16:52 <ehird> It's like snopes, but has bullshit instead.
01:18:11 <Gracenotes> ..and the big ones haven't even come yet
01:18:23 <ehird> mycroftiv: No, he's upgrading from Ubuntu 8.04.
01:18:34 <ehird> Because apparently homework stopped him taking an hour to upgrade to 8.10 or 9.04.
01:18:57 <ehird> Your mental issues. :P
01:19:06 <ehird> …and that's saying something coming from me.
01:19:15 <mycroftiv> ugg, why try to inplace upgrade rather than do a clean install and transfer? isnt inplace upgrading both gonna take longer and (50%+ chance) bork your setup?
01:19:37 <ehird> It generally works fine on Ubuntu.
01:19:45 <mycroftiv> i say this is a long time debian + ooboontoo user
01:19:47 <ehird> It's just that most in-place upgrades suck.
01:19:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: wfm /shrug
01:20:18 <Gracenotes> clean install would probably take much longer with what I have
01:20:31 <pikhq> ehird: I still have trouble believing that most OSes can't do in-place upgrades.
01:20:46 <ehird> A decent component system handles it trivially.
01:20:58 <pikhq> Not because I disbelieve that such OSes exist, but that I disbelieve that we're still in the freaking 80s. :P
01:21:02 <ehird> Sometimes I think it should just deactivate all software that can't handle the new versions.
01:21:06 <ehird> That'd speed up compatibility.
01:21:16 <ehird> (You could, of course, manually activate the old version for certain programs.)
01:21:40 <mycroftiv> i guess everyone works out their own workflows, i always have about 4 bootable partitions per box, and when a new distro release comes out, i generally choose the oldest/least used partition, pull any data i want out of it, and install on top of that, leaving whatever my most used system pre-install untouched and just using/copying its data as needed
01:21:55 <pikhq> mycroftiv: I have yet to have a distro upgrade break for me.
01:22:01 <pikhq> ... I've been using Linux since 2002.
01:22:10 <mycroftiv> pikhq: i commend your administrative skills :)
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01:22:35 <pikhq> And no, I don't switch distros often.
01:22:42 <pikhq> I've been using Gentoo since like 2004 or 2005.
01:22:56 <ehird> Gentoo solves the X problem by making you do it all manually, forall X. :P
01:23:07 <pikhq> Along with Debian.
01:23:15 <ehird> For some definitions of Debian.
01:23:17 <mycroftiv> i dont think so, gentoo has a ton of automation, its really nice, dont you think?
01:23:32 <mycroftiv> stuff like eselect and so forth, i find gentoo easy to admin really
01:23:33 <ehird> But I mostly hate source-based distros in general.
01:23:42 <ehird> And I'm no fan of Gentoo users.
01:23:45 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. Just emerge -avuDN world && revdep-rebuild ;# et viola.
01:24:25 <Gracenotes> this is, of course, mah first distribution
01:24:42 <pikhq> My first distro was Slackware.
01:24:53 <pikhq> I suspect that's skewed most of my Linux usage.
01:26:15 <pikhq> After that, I toyed with Red Hat (eeeeeewwwww), Debian (stable was t3h old then, not just old), and eventually settled into Gentoo on my desktop and Debian on anything I don't want to fuck with.
01:27:48 <ehird> I like computers to do things for me.
01:28:13 <pikhq> Gentoo does things for me.
01:29:26 <pikhq> Whaddya mean, sort of?
01:29:40 <mycroftiv> the userland you get from any gnu/linux distro is always going to be equivalent or whatever the user wants, i havent found any significant differences other than the details of the init scripts and package managers between distros
01:30:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: Arch uses BSD init, which is nice.
01:30:06 <ehird> I do not like SysV init. It is not kind to me.
01:30:18 <mycroftiv> even if you switch to BSD the userland you tend to build doesnt seem very different to me at least
01:30:19 <pikhq> ehird, Gentoo uses neither.
01:31:00 <ehird> Unix is unix, so it is, so it sucks, but it's here and everyone who can do better — like, say, us — are sitting around on their asses doing nothing.
01:31:13 <mycroftiv> ehird: not true, im using and developing and releasing plan9 software
01:31:41 <pikhq> Well, actually, it uses SysV init, but only as a wrapper for /sbin/rc.
01:31:42 <ehird> Plan 9 isn't even significantly better; it progresses the Unix paradigm, thus running into its limits, but this is not much of an improvement.
01:31:47 <pikhq> (to minimize breakage)
01:31:50 <ehird> It just shows that, yes, it is a limited paradigm.
01:32:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: what about the 9p protocol and 9p fs interfaces as something entirely independent from plan9, despite having been developed as part of it?
01:32:41 <ehird> It's a hierarchical filesystem. I don't like them. They are not kind to me and they are not all that useful, and there are far better things.
01:32:56 <ehird> (Okay, they're related to hierarchical filesystems; whatever.)
01:33:32 <pikhq> ehird: It's the best we've got mostly because the alternative is a notable lack of paradigm. So, most people enter UNIX, are impressed that there *is* a paradigm, and dispute that it could even be changed for the better...
01:33:48 <pikhq> Combine with UNIX being good enough for most purposes, and you get 40 years of UNIX.
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01:34:02 <ehird> Yes, well, I rarely consider what other people want when dabbling in such things.
01:34:28 <mycroftiv> ehird: hrmph, im not sure what you say really makes sense from a fundamentals perspective - the idea that you can say hierarchical filesystems and the general idea of file i/o as semantics for how you 'control your turing machine' seems a bit broad...
01:34:48 <mycroftiv> you say they are 'not all that useful' which doesnt seem to make sense
01:35:09 <ehird> I just hate files as separate from objects, I hate disk as separate from memory, and I hate tree hierarchy.
01:35:34 <ehird> Orthogonal persistence — FUCK YEAH.
01:35:54 <ehird> Chuck in persistence of continuations and we've got some hot lovin' suspendable persistin' action.
01:36:03 <mycroftiv> ehird: ok, 9p actually i think addresses all of those concerns - it has the idea that 'objects == files' in its paradigm - it absolutely is designed to abstract away from disk vs. memory - and it doesnt impose a tree hierarchy, even
01:36:29 <pikhq> ehird: This is a very Smalltalkish way of doing things.
01:36:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: 9P is basically RPC, so it's a leaky abstraction. Anyway. No.
01:36:42 <ehird> 9P still has plain text as the quantum.
01:36:52 <ehird> I hate plain text for anything other than plain text.
01:36:56 <mycroftiv> what information cant be represented by plain text? none.
01:37:05 <ehird> mycroftiv: OK, then. Why does C have any types other than char *?
01:37:22 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, in a way it doesnt! it offers semantic labeling and handling for convenience
01:37:29 <ehird> It most certainly does, mycroftiv.
01:37:35 <mycroftiv> but as i surely dont need to explain to you, you get to cast anything to void...
01:37:51 <mycroftiv> recast as char, work with it that way...send it back, if itll fit...or maybe give you a nice crash...
01:37:58 <ehird> You will only get internal representations.
01:38:03 <ehird> That is not applicable to what I am talking about.
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01:39:08 <mycroftiv> i admit you are probably a lot more expert on this than i am, im just a guy who tries to write software to do stuff using the abstractions that make the most sense to me
01:39:29 <pikhq> mycroftiv: As an aside, have you considered learning Haskell?
01:39:39 <mycroftiv> pikhq: yeah, thats kind of a slow moving ongoing project for me
01:39:44 <ehird> Expert, mycroftiv? I'm just a deranged 13 year old. :P
01:39:54 <ehird> But consider me flattered or something.
01:40:02 <mycroftiv> well, you talk a good game, at least
01:40:10 <ehird> That's because I'm always right, duh.
01:40:34 <ehird> Anyway, the best way to come to love rich persisted objects is via orthogonal persistence.
01:40:51 <ehird> You never lose anything, when coding you never worry about losing anything, and it's truly a living environment of objects
01:40:55 <ehird> The idea is simple:
01:40:55 <mycroftiv> i love rich persisted objects, its exactly why i like plan9 and 9p :)
01:41:03 <ehird> All of memory is continually persisted to disk.
01:41:10 <ehird> Memory = cache for disk.
01:41:18 <ehird> There's no filesystem. No files.
01:41:32 <ehird> You have your runtime objects, and that's what you keep until you explicitly let go.
01:41:36 <mycroftiv> imagine theres no files...no filesystem too...you may say that im a dreamer...but im not the only one...
01:41:48 <ehird> Lennon was a Smalltalker.
01:42:06 <pikhq> ehird: So, Smalltalk.
01:42:16 <ehird> Yes, Smalltalk, dammit. :P
01:42:17 <mycroftiv> ehird: my opinion is that what you just described is exactly the plan9 and 9p design, with a merely semantic difference between the word 'object' and the word 'file'
01:42:22 <ehird> Though I don't think Smalltalk persisted.
01:42:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: Nononono, it's not.
01:42:37 <ehird> Make a value in Plan 9's C.
01:42:41 <ehird> You lose it if you have a crash.
01:42:45 <ehird> You lose it if your program terminates.
01:42:59 <ehird> You have to explicitly hook into the persistence mechanism and come up with a representation.
01:43:01 <ehird> That's not it at all.
01:43:09 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence, you just Use Objects Like That.
01:43:14 <ehird> And they stay there.
01:43:24 <mycroftiv> ehird: aha! ok, we are speaking of different layers - i am absolutely not talking about the plan9 os/kernel layer, but the layer of the 9p fs itself! surely smalltalk objects arent persistent if you smash the hsot machine with a hammer or delete the software?
01:43:47 <ehird> See, but orthogonal persistence IS OS layer.
01:44:01 <ehird> It's ubiquitous, that's why it works.
01:44:06 <mycroftiv> i completely agree taht you need to fully push these principles down to all layers, and that plan9 does not do that
01:44:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: Yes, and once you do that, you realise that you're persisting the rich objects and not a plain text representation of them.
01:44:41 <ehird> And you realise that there's a reason we program with those rich semantics, and no reason not to persist like that too.
01:45:06 <mycroftiv> sorry, as a turing fundamentalist, i dont think there is a difference between 'rich objects' and 'plain text' - unless you have a physical OS that isnt using binary at the transistor level?
01:45:16 * Gracenotes awaits finally being able to install anki
01:45:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: Your argument reeks of "Brainfuck is just as good as Haskell because they're both turing complete".
01:45:57 <ehird> But in practice, no, that's not how they match up.
01:46:11 <mycroftiv> no, i think im trying to stake out something much more limited, which is:
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01:46:30 <ehird> It's possible that we're agreeing but you're using awkward terminology.
01:46:31 <mycroftiv> "you cant critique 9p on the basis of the underlying OS any more than you can critique smalltalk on the basis of the physical hardware it runs on"
01:46:42 <ehird> By plain text, I mean the kind of thing that you find on unix/plan 9 systems.
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01:46:49 <ehird> Flat file, ad-hoc formats, pseudo-human-readable.
01:46:57 <ehird> I don't mean binary representations of objects, which is what I prefer.
01:47:01 <ehird> Yes, they're both bits, technically.
01:47:04 <ehird> But the paradigm is different.
01:47:23 <mycroftiv> but thats just like 'machine storage'! a rich object is always going to be what you get at the 'content layer' after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is! thats what plaintext is, its just like binary at the machine level
01:47:31 <mycroftiv> i think you are making a layer confusion in your thinking
01:47:36 <ehird> "after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is"
01:47:45 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence there is no format.
01:47:57 <ehird> What you clunk to disk is what you use.
01:48:00 <mycroftiv> so your physical chips liquify and dont use binary?
01:48:20 <ehird> .........................whut
01:48:34 <pikhq> ehird: There is one thing that makes me vomit about this: the data should be independent of the programs. I am not sure how you would pull that off.
01:48:46 <ehird> pikhq: Why on earth should it be?
01:48:49 <mycroftiv> look, you dont have a problem with having your rich objects stored in binary in the physical memory right?"
01:48:52 <ehird> Objects have methods ;-)
01:48:59 <pikhq> ehird: I kill you.
01:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: Smalltalk, bitch.
01:49:13 <pikhq> ehird: I kill you.
01:49:19 <augur> pikhq: what do you mean independent of the programs?
01:49:27 <ehird> augur: plz read ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
01:49:35 <mycroftiv> so if you are OK with binary storage of objects at the physical layer, and the microcode/firmware or whatever you call it translating your smalltalk into those operations
01:49:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: I really think you're pulling at straws here
01:49:38 <augur> explain what you mean by that.
01:49:56 <pikhq> augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file.
01:50:00 <mycroftiv> why isnt it ok for there to be a layer that works with data as plaintext, as an intermediate stage between binary and the rich objects?
01:50:02 <pikhq> (though not all programs will make sense of it)
01:50:10 <augur> you mean non-proprietary formats, essentially.
01:50:49 <pikhq> You fail at reading comprehension. Epicly.
01:50:52 <mycroftiv> ehird: can you network with these rich objects? if you send them via ethernet framing, does the fact that they become binary/plaintext during transmission across the network destroy them somehow?
01:50:59 <augur> "augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file."
01:51:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: That would work, sure… but it's also kind of a silly step and will just use more disk. Also, the fact is that in 9P, you address objects with paths — which is not how you address them in an object system (e.g. "self users at: 3" is not /users/3)
01:51:17 <ehird> So, Unix and 9P's model is not just "making objects plaintext before bunking them to disk".
01:51:29 <ehird> (That would work → plaintext intermediatry)
01:51:34 <augur> unless you mean "handled by a text editor", i take this to mean "handled by anything that plays music because they all play mp3s"
01:52:02 <pikhq> augur: Handled by anything that handles files in general.
01:52:09 <augur> ok. handled in what sense?
01:52:11 <mycroftiv> ehird: hm, in a very important sense I think 'making objects plaintext for convenience while reading/writing them' is absolutely the essence of unix design
01:52:23 <pikhq> cat foo.mp3 ;# that's handling it.
01:52:26 <pikhq> Not usefully, but it is.
01:52:30 <mycroftiv> and that in no sense is unix attempting to prevent you from creating higher level systematic abstractions that have nothing to do with plaintext
01:52:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: That's not a convenience, it's just pointless.
01:52:38 <ehird> In a decent object system.
01:52:51 <ehird> Not Unix's shambles of assorted binary blobs operating in low-level languages.
01:52:55 <augur> right, ok, but im pretty sure that thats essentially possible regardless. ignoring the fact that certain programs have certain expectations of file contents.
01:53:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: Anyway, "while reading/writing them"
01:53:22 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence, you don't see that.
01:53:26 <ehird> You modify the object, it's modified on disk.
01:53:30 <ehird> The OS does it, you never notice.
01:53:37 <ehird> There is no reading or writing, there is just "is".
01:57:01 <ehird> I mean "there is just 'is'" as in the objects are just there, except there implies them being in a place.
01:57:11 <ehird> So I just said is; they exist.
01:59:35 <mycroftiv> all im saying is, there is a real and messy world of wires and circuits and binary bits that has to be brought into compliance with the abstractions you create. I dont see how you can escape, at some layer, having to work with things in the semantics that the wires/spec imposes on you. thats all.
02:01:30 <mycroftiv> the unix plaintext abstaction was created to meet the practical needs of how you build a system where the user can interact with rich objects and the wires and magnetic bits can stay synchronized with that. it is certainly not perfect, and could be much improved - but i think unix plaintext handling exists at the 'dealing with hardware' layer more than the 'telling you what abstractions to use' layer.
02:04:41 <ehird> I disagree because I see code handling this supposedly low-level "abstraction" all the time.
02:05:03 <ehird> I really think you're underestimating the culture of making your own shitty ad-hoc plain text formats and putting them in your own ad-hoc locations.
02:05:09 <mycroftiv> i never said the work of creating the 'ladder of abstractions' and making systems be consistent was complete!
02:06:01 <mycroftiv> ehird: i think you are confusing me with a defender of traditional unix...i think you are making the mistake of confusing something that is a progressive step in the evolutionary process with something that is an obstacle
02:06:26 <ehird> I'm not sure Plan 9 can go further, but we'll see. My other beef with it is that it keeps the outdated notion of an "application"; a 70s-era exposure of kernel structurse.
02:06:31 <ehird> Fun talking, anyway. I've got to go sleep now. I know people on IRC generally don't do that.
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02:07:14 <augur> i think to understand ehird
02:07:20 <augur> think of it like this
02:07:30 <augur> objects exist in memory during runtime right?
02:07:56 <mycroftiv> sure - i think i understand his ideas about breaking down the traditional 'hardware based' abstractions, absolutely
02:08:33 <augur> ok. the stuff in memory during runtime is whatever "format" a running object has
02:09:10 <mycroftiv> hm, not completely sure if you are talking about the abstract type as defined by the language/compiler etc or the machine representation as transistor bits/logic, but sure
02:09:20 <augur> whatever is in ram
02:09:55 <mycroftiv> at one layer, it is logical strucutre - at another layer, its physical charge
02:10:05 <mycroftiv> they can be mapped onto each other precisely, of course
02:10:06 <augur> in a smalltalk like system, the act of saving a file, or anything actually, amounts to nothing more than copying the memory content to the harddrive.
02:10:19 <augur> it doesnt involve encoding it into a special format for "representing" the object
02:10:26 <augur> its just a raw binary dump to the harddrive.
02:10:41 <mycroftiv> you still have a ton of lower level firmware type stuff going on
02:10:51 <augur> but thats not part of the objects in question.
02:11:06 <mycroftiv> and neither is the unix plaintext representation of data part of the 'objects' as dealt with by application software
02:11:13 <mycroftiv> two different layers of the abstraction
02:11:38 <augur> right, except that the plaintext representations of data are /representations of data/
02:11:56 <mycroftiv> the low level firmware and os driver control of a hard drive are also representations of data
02:12:01 <augur> as opposed to the raw data itself, that would normally exist in memory when the computer is processing it
02:12:12 <augur> yes but different data.
02:12:40 <mycroftiv> a larger set of data, but the 'content data' is still a subset thereof
02:13:18 <mycroftiv> if you can talk about small talk and 'abstract away' from the os drivers for the hard drive and its firmware - you can talk about unix software and its semantics and extract away from the unix os handling of the data before sending it to the disk
02:14:01 <mycroftiv> if you can send data over a network without the fact that it was encapsulated via tcp/ip somehow 'contaminating it' at the application layer - you can do the same with an os's representation of data and its software
02:14:31 <mycroftiv> there is no way you can escape from the particularities of the hard work of handling your hardware and formats - you just build tools that let you work as a programmer and user at layers of abstraction beyond that
02:14:48 <mycroftiv> if smalltalk exists as smalltalk regardlesss of the hardware platform
02:15:25 <mycroftiv> then you can certainly create whatever kind of environment you want as a set of abstractions on top of any os that gives you the ability to create a working implementation
02:16:44 <mycroftiv> so thats why i keep saying i think this is a 'layer confusion' where you are expecting that a lower layer should conform to the semantics and syntax of a higher layer - where you cant actually do that, unless you make your chips out of ideas rather than transistors
02:18:02 <mycroftiv> its great if you can make your layers as transparent and consistent as possible, and we definitely can evolve much further in that direction
02:19:56 <mycroftiv> but the fact that we have to store our data fundamentally as electrical charges, and stuff it through networking protocols, and read it from disks using various hardware bus interface specifications - these are annoyances, but they are just the 'accidental material' of creating things, just as the marble is not the sculpture
02:23:25 <mycroftiv> that being said - i understand that *plastic* was created because marble is hard to work with, and having something easier to shape is valuable - and ehird is talking about increasing the *plasticity* of data and how we work with it
02:23:51 <mycroftiv> which i 100% agree with and support
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10:32:48 <fizzie> Heh, I had completely forgotten about that thing.
11:07:18 <fizzie> Soon your packages be explodin'.
11:08:37 <Gracenotes> the 2 day forecast was not so unrealistic
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11:46:44 <zzo38> Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples
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11:48:12 <zzo38> I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)?
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11:54:42 <zzo38> O, what's this mistake
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12:34:07 * Sgeo has corpses in his kitchen
12:36:19 <zzo38> What doesn't kill you, makes you hard of hearing.
12:37:22 <zzo38> Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples
12:37:29 <zzo38> I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)?
12:38:49 <zzo38> What people would put all the blood in a bowl and then throw all of the cigarettes in the same bowl?
12:47:30 <zzo38> That was in Akagi manga book.
12:47:34 <Sgeo> I had blood on my hands that may or may not have been mine (was probably mine)
12:49:44 <Sgeo> (I killed a mosquito by accident. It had just bitten me)
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12:50:36 <zzo38> I have heard that only female mosquitoes bite you.
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12:53:37 <zzo38> Why is all QUIT and JOIN a lot in a past few minutes?
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13:11:50 * Gracenotes beats his graphics card into pulpy submission
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13:24:06 <Sgeo> WHY IS FIREFOX SO SLOW ON THIS PENTIUM III?
13:26:40 <Gracenotes> Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous lagging, or to take arms against a sea of graphics cards, and by opposing make them effing work?
13:27:04 * ehird gives Gracenotes $15bux
13:31:43 * Sgeo has a nvidia card. It sucks
13:35:56 <Sgeo> ehird, do you know of a site like imgur, but for audio?
13:36:24 <Sgeo> ty, as soon as Firefox regains sanity
13:36:43 <Gracenotes> wikimedia commons. if you freely license it. and prove its encyclopedic worth.
13:36:50 * Sgeo doesn't want reddit hitting diagonalfish
13:36:58 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, there is no encyclopedic worth
13:37:21 <Gracenotes> you must thrust encyclopedic worth into it
13:37:55 <ehird> Sgeo: to think that reddit will hit anything you submit is statistically nonsensical
13:38:13 <ehird> Sgeo: anyway, filebin will cause a download.
13:38:21 <ehird> tindeck if you want a player; must be freely licensed.
13:39:38 <Sgeo> Somehow, I doubt that people will want to redistribute this
13:40:28 <ehird> Sgeo: Reddit will absolutely not hit something they have to save and open.
13:40:42 <ehird> In conclusion, self-defeating prophecy.\
13:41:18 <Slereah_> I think you mean self-fulfilling.
13:42:08 * Sgeo reconsiders doing anything with this at this point
13:42:09 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav
13:42:54 <Sgeo> Is /r/self an appropriate place to ask for information like what songs the unknown songs are?
13:42:57 <Sgeo> Things like that?
13:43:25 <ehird> Wow my ears just cringed listening to that. I didn't know that was possible.
13:47:03 <Sgeo> For a sec, ehird sounded a bit like Randall Munroe
13:47:17 <ehird> "you bet bitches" is totally what xkcd would say.
13:47:23 <ehird> <xkcd> you bet bitches
13:49:05 <Sgeo> ehird, how is that sort of thing inappropriate for /r/self ?
13:49:23 <ehird> Does it work as a self post? No.
13:49:48 <Sgeo> Well, then I'll ask about a game
13:50:37 <ehird> Eh? Are you just trying to ask… something? :P
13:51:02 <ehird> Poor, lonely Sgeo.
13:51:13 <Sgeo> Trying to find out more information about a game I found out about in 2001 or earlier
13:51:37 <Sgeo> Don't know if/when it died, don't know if what I remember about it is a mere hallucination, or anything
13:52:08 * Sgeo replies to a comment with an obscure reference
13:53:15 <ehird> Sgeo: You seem to have nostalgia but no aoknalgia. :P
13:54:02 * Sgeo didn't get that that was a pun until google failed to return anything
13:54:57 <ehird> Sgeo: I'm surprised you get the pun even afterwards.
13:55:09 <ehird> Actually it's not really a pun.
13:55:15 <Sgeo> I barely get it
13:55:42 <Sgeo> I guess I don't get it
13:55:56 <ehird> nostalgia = nostos + algos; aoknalgia = aoknos + algos; aoknos is one of the seventy billion words that an English → Ancient Greek dictionary gave me for "present".
13:57:54 <ehird> Sgeo: Which was a long-winded way of saying "Wow, you really like dead games".
13:57:57 <ehird> Gracenotes: Quite so.
13:58:46 <Gracenotes> so, I was tuning into my interblogotube the other day
13:58:50 <Sgeo> You know, it's funny, I missed Cybertown, but when I was able to visit regularly again, I stopped missing it quite so much
13:59:06 <Sgeo> I no longer feel desparate to see the 3d
13:59:12 <Sgeo> I do miss the community though
13:59:32 <ehird> Sgeo: So you're a necrophiliac, essentially.
14:00:11 <ehird> Also, you're really obsessed with VR games.
14:00:38 <Gracenotes> I am obsessed with tickle-torturing ehird!
14:01:41 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/972hb/any_information_about_this_old_probably_now_dead/
14:02:04 <ehird> Sgeo: Hahaha those three points are hilariously vague
14:02:20 <Sgeo> So is my memory
14:02:41 <ehird> Any information about this thing?
14:02:45 <ehird> I remember that it was a thing
14:02:49 <ehird> and I think you could do things
14:02:54 <ehird> oh, and the things had things.
14:02:58 * Sgeo adds more details
14:04:21 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity/ durp durp
14:06:58 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I think I remember where I found that gamer
14:07:12 <Gracenotes> http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity+null/
14:07:48 <ehird> As I said in the post, :P
14:08:14 <Sgeo> I'd be more encouraged about looking there if there was evidence that it contained information about a site that I found around the same time as this mysterious game
14:08:39 <Sgeo> What does +null do, exactly?
14:08:57 <Sgeo> And how did ehird make a superficially anonymous reddit in the first place?
14:09:15 <ehird> you can do /r/a+b+c/
14:09:20 <ehird> presumably null is an empty subreddit
14:09:29 <Sgeo> ...that's awesome
14:09:30 <ehird> and this of course disables custom css
14:09:37 <ehird> since the main page is e.g. /r/blah+blah+blah/ essentially
14:10:16 <Sgeo> Will I get an orange envelop if someone replies to my post?
14:10:22 <Sgeo> Or do I have to check it manually?
14:11:27 <ehird> Sgeo: By the way, delete it, it belongs in AskReddit.
14:11:45 <ehird> i love poking tft screens
14:11:49 <Sgeo> I remember seeing something saying that AskReddit is for insightful questions
14:12:04 <ehird> if it isn't insightful don't ask? :P
14:17:29 <ehird> E/R=sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+phi
14:18:23 * Sgeo runs, screaming, from the trig
14:20:35 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha sez:
14:20:38 <ehird> <me> solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:20:45 <ehird> <W|A> Z = 1/2 (2 R sqrt(A^2 B^2+1) sin(R)+sqrt(5) R+R)
14:24:27 <Sgeo> ..I assume that what you posted was a rendering of usage of Wolfram Alpha as though it were an IRC conversation, as opposed to Wolfram Alpha being available in some IRC channel?
14:25:14 <ehird> `wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:25:27 <ehird> !wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:25:28 <HackEgo> solve Z sin R cos arctan A B \ \ 1 sqrt 5 2 \ \ R \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ solve \ \ Z \ \ sin R cos tan 1 A B \ \ 1 2 \ \ 1 \ \ 5 \ \ R \ \ Result: \ \ Z \ \ 1 2 \ \ 2R \ \ A2 B2 \ \ 1 sin R \ \ 5 R \ \ R \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 3, 2009 from Champaign, IL. ©
14:25:49 <ehird> GregorR: You should really make it use the plain text forms.
14:25:52 <Slereah_> It doesn't say what variable to solve
14:25:57 <ehird> Slereah_: It guesses
14:26:10 <ehird> But it jsut ended up reformulating what I gave it :P
14:27:47 <fizzie> Uh... a message-box popped up from w|a: "You are about to log in to the site "www37.wolframalpha.com" with the username "xss", but the website does not require authentication. This may be an attempt to trick you. Is "www37.wolframalpha.com" the site you want to visit?"
14:28:08 <fizzie> Anyway, you can tell w|a that "solve [equation] for [var]".
14:28:08 <ehird> fizzie: Going to wolframalpha.com, I assume
14:28:16 <ehird> not Windows Live Authentication or something
14:28:48 <ehird> Telling it to solve for Z changes nothing, anyway.
14:29:27 <fizzie> Sure, since it was already solving for Z. And it doesn't seem to be able to say anything sensible for R.
14:30:43 <fizzie> If you simplify by removing that last "*R" you get a rather ugly solution when saying "solve for R".
14:31:01 <ehird> What solution is it? Me lazy.
14:31:20 <fizzie> R = -sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n+pi and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, R = sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, B = +-i/A and Z = 1/2 (1+sqrt(5)) and A!=0
14:31:29 <fizzie> It really doesn't look as pretty in the plaintext form.
14:31:38 <ehird> heyy it got pi involved
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14:46:04 <fizzie> Well, pi's lurking everywhere; "integrate e^(-x^2) from -infinity to infinity".
14:47:16 <Slereah_> Well, it's in a bucnh of integrals
14:47:17 <ehird> Truly boggles the mind :P
14:49:58 <ehird> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
14:51:40 <Slereah_> And then you find the loser numbers
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15:09:19 <ehird> In the fairly likely event of the software crashing, a wire coming loose, a component failing, or the batteries running low, the wheels will stop and the entire kinetic energy of the system will be used to accelerate my head toward the ground.
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15:51:52 <Sgeo> http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/01/alt-shift-print-screen-scary-keyboard.html absentmindedly tried this on Ubuntu >.>
15:57:20 <ehird> God I hate stupid blogs with stupid posts.
16:11:34 <ehird> CUPERTINO, California—August 3, 2009—Apple® today announced that Dr. Eric Schmidt, chief executive officer of Google, is resigning from Apple’s Board of Directors, a position he has held since August 2006.
16:12:42 <pikhq> ehird: Eric Schmidt cited a conflict of interest.
16:12:58 <ehird> Understandable, though if they really think Chrome OS is a competitor to OS X…
16:13:02 <ehird> (then they're on crack)
16:13:10 <ehird> Android, though, yeah.
16:13:35 <pikhq> Chrome OS is more of a competitor to Apple TV than OS X.
16:13:39 <pikhq> (and even that's a stretch)
16:14:04 <ehird> Err, Chrome OS is for browsin' the web and chattin' and documentin'.
16:14:09 <ehird> Apple TV is for playing music and movies.
16:14:14 <ehird> I'm not sure how that works.
16:14:42 <pikhq> They're both OSes for 'appliances', not full-fledged computers.
16:14:48 <pikhq> Bit of a stretch still.
16:14:57 <pikhq> But at least in the same ballpark.
16:15:05 <ehird> Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooort offfffffffffffffffffffffff.
16:15:31 <ehird> [[Nice attempt at a cover up by Apple “Unfortunately, as Google enters more of Apple’s core businesses, with Android and now Chrome OS, Eric’s effectiveness as an Apple Board member will be significantly diminished..." But we know its about Apple rejecting Google's apps]]
16:15:38 <ehird> Reddit sure is full of conspiracy theories.
16:16:10 <ehird> (Apple rejected Google Voice stuff from the iPhone and were dicks and told Google to refund and stuff)
16:17:29 <ehird> [[I know everyone on reddit thinks Apple and Google are like Jesus and Buddha]]
16:17:30 <ehird> Also, full of strawmen set up just so they can get popular by being contradicted.
16:17:39 <ehird> Since every second comment on reddit is "Apple sux lol".
16:18:13 <ehird> Neat, someone denying the Macintosh was influential.
16:18:18 <ehird> GUYS I DON'T EVEN LIKE APPLE ANY MORE
16:18:20 <ehird> BUT YOU'RE STILL STUPID.
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16:18:51 <pikhq> ... The Mac, not influential?
16:19:22 <ehird> pikhq: Their argument is that they were dormant in the 90s.
16:19:29 <ehird> That's why they weren't influential in the 70s/80s.
16:19:29 <pikhq> Even if you point at Xerox and say they did it all first, the Mac was at least influential for *bringing that in a normal PC*...
16:19:31 <ehird> It's so OBVIOUS now!
16:19:32 <pikhq> ehird: Face. Palm.
16:20:11 <ehird> soo close to abandoning reddit.
16:23:09 <Sgeo> lol http://www.dibert.com/
16:23:31 <ais523> is that link typoed, or deliberate, btw?
16:24:01 <Sgeo> Well, when I first typed it into the browser, that was a typo
16:24:07 <Sgeo> But pasting it in here was deliberate
16:25:20 <Sgeo> The Diberts enjoy Dilbert, apparenty
16:27:46 <ais523> I'm reading about how someone tried to plant a fake ATM in the middle of a computer security convention
16:28:21 <pikhq> ais523: Defcon. Freaking *Defcon*.
16:28:41 <pikhq> Special form of stupidity there.
16:31:11 <ehird> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_did_a_Big_Mac_cost_today
16:31:24 <ais523> err, what a strangely worded question
16:32:04 <ais523> ooh, looks like the doors crashed again yesterday
16:32:07 <ais523> but I wasn't there to see it
16:32:28 * Sgeo would probably fall for it >.>
16:32:42 <Sgeo> Well, is there an easy way to tell if an ATM is fake?
16:33:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and did the details of the iPhone issue come out?
16:38:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:39:39 <ais523> Sgeo: well, if an ATM suddenly appears in a location there wasn't one a while back, and the owners of the place don't remember installing it, it probably isn't real
16:39:56 <ais523> it's fake fronts on existing ATMs that are the real problem
16:40:06 <ais523> which is rather different from fake ATMs
16:40:46 <ehird> you can just look, though
16:43:06 <ais523> can you tell a real ATM front from a fake one by sight?
16:44:13 <ehird> erm, the atm covers, yeah?
16:46:04 <ais523> I've seen a fake one on the TV, they're pretty realistic
16:46:22 <ais523> and almost certainly trademark infringement, at that
16:47:41 -!- oklopol has joined.
16:47:53 <ehird> oh, trademark infringement, that's so what they worry about
16:48:03 <ehird> have you ever conducted an
16:48:34 <ehird> & its contents thereof
16:48:39 <oklopol> but most of them are really small, you can't see them
16:48:59 <ehird> so, maybe you busted it up some time yesterday or today? this is possible?
16:49:19 <ehird> that would make good sense
16:49:22 <ehird> i would understand that
16:50:09 <oklopol> busted it up? i'm not sure i'm familiar with that outsorted phrase
16:50:34 <ehird> oklopol: it's when you blam it but it's sort of like a nuclear bomb
16:50:38 <oklopol> also this theme is awesome
16:50:47 <oklopol> right, that's a lot i guess.
16:50:53 -!- Azstal has joined.
16:50:56 <oklopol> i just scored me some free pills
16:50:57 <ehird> is this understand-worthy
16:51:01 <ehird> are the pills pills of delight
16:51:02 <oklopol> i just scored me some free pills
16:51:12 <ehird> or freight, freight train, which is it oklopol
16:51:58 <oklopol> you wait your turn, IE is crashing again
16:52:54 <ehird> so are these pills made of magic//or are their rhymes tragic
16:52:54 <oklopol> hmph, it's gone i guess, anyway they are these things that make like a sizzling sound and then you drink it.
16:53:46 <ehird> oklopol: /nick oklopill
16:53:53 <oklopol> should probably sleep a bit
16:54:01 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklopil.
16:54:51 <ehird> it's easy to get free pills in the uk, it's called a prescription ← Joke humour
16:56:36 <oklopil> yeah that was pretty funny
16:57:48 <oklopil> especially the IE theme is just awesome
16:58:05 <oklopil> every page has a fully perfect look now
16:58:15 <oklopil> except some pics look kinda out of place
16:58:31 <oklopil> also you can't see some stuff
16:58:51 <oklopil> but you can't see everything with the windows theme either, for instance vlc's buttons
16:59:20 <ehird> i don't think seeing is like, good
16:59:38 <oklopil> i agree so completely fully.
17:00:05 <oklopil> nothing important has been invisible sofar
17:01:07 <ehird> it turns out that shoes have their own mathematics
17:01:26 <oklopil> are you talking about knot theory
17:01:45 <oklopil> did you know the multiplication of primitive knots is commutative?
17:02:04 <ais523> electricity? isn't that invisible?
17:02:15 <ais523> wait, that's what I get for answering a comment without reading context
17:02:18 <oklopil> well yes, i mean more invisible.
17:02:28 <oklopil> electricity was invisible before
17:03:12 <oklopil> with the obvious > for booleans
17:03:16 <ehird> what was the context there :D
17:03:49 <ehird> but air isn't very important
17:04:08 <ehird> wow wouldn't it be cool if electricity was visible
17:04:59 <oklopil> like, things with current would turn to electred
17:05:11 <ais523> Pthing: it's not the electricity visible there, it's the air plasma that's conducting it
17:05:15 <ehird> it'd be like a tesla coil all the time basically
17:05:21 <ehird> open up your PC and your mobo glows
17:05:22 <ais523> likewise with lightning
17:05:30 <Pthing> well abloobloo, if we're being like that
17:05:35 <Pthing> then all we can see is electricity
17:05:46 <ehird> it would persuade me
17:05:50 <ehird> to get a computer case with a side window
17:05:53 <ehird> despite HATING THAT SHIT
17:05:59 <ehird> if i could see my motherboard glow and shit.
17:06:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
17:08:15 <ehird> Pthing: if we want to be PEDANTIC
17:08:22 <ehird> then we can just say that everything is quantum fluctuations of energy
17:08:43 <Pthing> sure, God is the creator of all things, seen and unseen
17:08:51 <Pthing> but only the seen parts have to do with electricity
17:09:37 <oklopil> well i hear reals were created by man, actually
17:09:38 <Pthing> also now i think of it, if you put current through something, it'll heat up due to resistance, so become a slightly different colour, if only in the infra-red
17:09:58 <Pthing> so you can get your dream if you wear infra-red vision things
17:11:15 <ehird> Pthing: when did i say god
17:11:50 <ais523> Pthing: very slightly different, typical computers use milliamps or microamps of current
17:11:56 <ais523> and try to avoid losing it as heat as much as possible
17:11:59 <Pthing> sure, but it's still there
17:12:29 <Pthing> tiny shift in the emission peak
17:14:41 <ais523> but the odds of being able to get vision sensitive enough to see it would be rather low
17:15:09 <ehird> Are you guys thinkin' what I'm thinking?
17:15:22 <ehird> <#esoteric> Yeah, but how will we get $1bn in funding?
17:16:20 <Pthing> it will save children from accidentally electrocuting themselves
17:16:24 <ehird> We also need a time machine to modify our genetics.
17:16:30 <ehird> Pthing: O RLY? "Ooh, shiny…"
17:16:49 <Pthing> we make it so that in the device, electricity is presented in an ugly colour
17:17:07 <ais523> actually, it shouldn't be a colour at all
17:17:10 <ehird> Pthing: yeah but kids love shit like that
17:17:18 <ais523> some people can see more colours than colourblind people can
17:17:21 <ehird> they love getting mucky
17:17:28 <Pthing> okay we'll need more funding to work out what colours kids don't like to touch
17:17:40 <ais523> that's not the point, the point is that it won't be a colour at all
17:17:46 <ehird> i don't think i had an urge to touch any lamps
17:17:46 <ais523> it'll be, just a direct brain input
17:17:55 <ais523> just like unless you're synaesthetic, smells don't have a colour
17:17:55 <ehird> so something that looks like an expose dlamp
17:18:12 <ehird> I wish I was synaesthetic
17:18:31 <ehird> can't think of any disadvantages either
17:23:20 <ehird> [[This kind of synesthesia is usually easily achieved by means of psychedelic drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin or Cannabinoids.]]
17:24:58 <ais523> don't even think about it
17:25:12 <ais523> even if synaesthesia has no disadvantages, the method of obtaining it probably does
17:25:17 <ehird> I just find it amusing when people put things like that in Wikipedia.
17:25:34 <ehird> My brain adds "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge." at the end.
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17:39:52 -!- ehird has joined.
17:47:36 <ais523> [17:38] <-- ehird has left this server.
17:47:38 <ais523> [17:39] --> ehird has joined this channel (n=ehird@91.105.72.107).
17:47:45 <ehird> I didn't miss those
17:48:06 <fizzie> But did you, in fact, go <-- that way, or --> this.
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17:56:39 -!- nooga has joined.
17:57:14 <nooga> i tried to remove all kinds of comments and macros from C/C++ code using regexp
17:57:31 <nooga> and i think it could be done more efficiently without using regexp
18:00:14 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:00:36 <nooga> the task seems easy
18:00:59 <nooga> but it's not as easy as you'd expect
18:04:14 <ais523> the issue is people doing things like " /* this is not a comment because it's in a string literal */ "
18:04:34 <ehird> i've never put /* or */ inside a string, like, ever
18:04:41 <ais523> ehird: I have, in C-INTERCAL
18:04:45 <ais523> it generates C code as output
18:04:55 <ais523> that involves putting all sorts of C-like snippets in string literals, including comments
18:05:01 <ehird> i may have i guess.
18:05:12 <ehird> but "all kinds of"
18:05:14 <ehird> i guess things like
18:05:21 <pikhq> nooga, so, you basically need to parse C. :P
18:05:22 <ehird> which are unlikely to appear in generated code
18:05:43 <ais523> ehird: I thought javadoc comments /only/ appeared in generated code
18:05:46 <ais523> all the code generators add them
18:05:59 <ehird> Language.C doesn't use Parsec, I think.
18:06:07 <pikhq> Not Parsec. Thinko.
18:06:07 <ehird> the template is added by IDEs
18:06:14 <ehird> javadocs are used in human-written code
18:06:16 <ehird> not generated code
18:06:38 <pikhq> ehird: He may be making a snide claim that Java programmers are just code generators.
18:06:41 <ehird> ais523: i think you should stop disputing it because every java project uses javadocs
18:06:43 <ais523> most people are too lazy to do that sort of thing
18:06:50 <ehird> pikhq: I think he's just never read any java code
18:06:53 <ais523> ehird: ok, I'm sorry, I'm just used to /really bad/ Java
18:07:08 <ehird> ais523: All Apache Java projects and all Eclipse Java projects are totally full of javadocs.
18:07:17 <ehird> As well as a whole bunch of independent libraries; pretty much all of them.
18:07:20 <ehird> And the standard libraries.
18:07:32 <pikhq> Javadoc is used extensively in Java.
18:07:34 <ais523> ehird: I'm used to people requiring that the recipient of their Java code install a certain IDE in order to run it
18:07:35 <ehird> Javadoc is kinda sucky, but it's very common.
18:07:44 <pikhq> It's about as commonly used as *objects* in Java. :P
18:07:45 <ais523> that's the sort of really bad Java I mean
18:07:52 <ehird> ais523: that's usually sound advice in general, but globally
18:07:58 <ehird> as in, using Java without an IDE is suicide
18:08:04 <ais523> ehird: in order to compile, maybe
18:08:14 <oklopil> i've never tried to program java with an ide
18:08:17 <ehird> I mainly meant in order to code or read
18:08:26 <pikhq> Actually, to just build Java without an IDE should be easy.
18:08:26 <ehird> oklopil: yes but trazer doesn't really count.
18:08:30 <nooga> i won't need to parse C
18:08:31 <ais523> I got really annoyed at them and went and made a simple GUI wrapper around their program, then put it all in a runnable .jar
18:08:37 <oklopil> works especially great without one, because you don't have to import explicitly
18:08:37 <pikhq> Don't almost all Java IDEs use Ant?
18:08:38 <ais523> and said "this is how you should be distributing your program"
18:08:40 <oklopil> ehird: i haven't made trazer
18:08:46 <oklopil> but i have made about a hundred java progs
18:08:46 <ehird> oklopil: you patched!
18:08:53 <oklopil> well i've added a few modules
18:08:55 <ehird> = one file dealies
18:09:04 <ehird> ais523: not on OS X!
18:09:07 <oklopil> no with java i usually use multiple files
18:09:20 <oklopil> because it's nice to do with java
18:09:22 <pikhq> I'd say that I don't use an IDE at all... But Emacs almost certainly counts as an IDE.
18:09:26 <ehird> oklopil: Oh shut up :P
18:09:35 <ehird> pikhq: you just have an inferior OS on top of your OS because your OS sucks
18:10:14 <pikhq> (the Haskell runtime system could pretty much count as an OS kernel. :P)
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18:10:47 * pikhq exaggerates to make ehird's eyes pop out
18:11:13 <ehird> pikhq: Consider them pooped.
18:11:22 <fizzie> Heh, that's a funny User-Agent string: "Mozilla/4.1 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Symbian OS; N-Gage;452) Opera 6.20 [en]". It's a Mozilla derivative... except it's MSIE instead... except it's Opera instead.
18:11:46 <ais523> every browser in existence is a mozilla derivative
18:11:54 <ais523> otherwise, how would websites know it supported frames?
18:11:55 <pikhq> I wish that we could revise user agents to make sense.
18:12:08 <ehird> pikhq: I wish we could eliminate user agents
18:12:14 <ehird> modularise them, rather
18:12:19 <fizzie> I wish we could eliminate users with agents.
18:12:31 <ehird> I like the general idea, because e.g. software sites can point you to the version for your OS and the like
18:12:31 <fizzie> Maybe with a comma there.
18:12:47 <pikhq> They get abused so much.
18:13:16 <oklopil> my abs almost never get used
18:13:39 <pikhq> People who think "this site only works on IE 6.0" is a good idea.
18:14:12 <ehird> oklopil: maybe you should hang around negative people more often
18:14:15 <oklopil> i thought it was just "this site works on anything but ie"
18:14:28 <fizzie> Opera (9.24 winxp, 9.25 winxp, 6.05 win98) doesn't seem to advertise itself as a Mozilla derivative, let alone IE 5. I think that Symbian-Opera-6 is a bit "special".
18:14:45 <ehird> opera is so bloated it has a whole list of browsers you can tell it to impersonate
18:15:07 <oklopil> ehird: some streaming services do that, and i've seen at least a few other pages that do it
18:15:09 <fizzie> Yes, there's that, but I don't think it advertises itself as Opera at all when impersonating really. Not that I've tested.
18:15:16 <ehird> there are plenty ie only sites
18:15:20 <ehird> they just all suck
18:15:51 <fizzie> There are also plenty IE-only-sites which use that ActiveX stuff somehow.
18:16:07 <oklopil> right, i'm talking about useful pages
18:16:08 <fizzie> Well, I guess the suck category already covered that.
18:16:59 <oklopil> but sounds like something nice and useful that everybody hate
18:17:34 <ehird> oklopil: active-x lets you run arbitrary native code in the browser.
18:17:44 <fizzie> It's a bit like Java applets, except only for Windows and IE and without the attempt at security.
18:17:44 <ehird> buggily and slowly, usually.
18:17:48 <ehird> oklopil: pretty much yes
18:17:50 <oklopil> well that's just plain awesome :DD
18:17:54 <ehird> you have to OK it of course
18:18:16 <oklopil> right, naturally people would read the executable disassembly before running
18:20:07 <fizzie> Well, one Finnish bank (Sampo) made their net-bank's "security solution" to require Java with some native JNI blobs recently, when their computer systems were "streamlined" to conform with Danske Bank, who bought Sampo.
18:20:57 * ehird attempts to click his mouse with only pressure on the top bit
18:21:15 <ehird> (note: this is impossible)
18:21:26 <fizzie> That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank.
18:21:56 <pikhq> Java applets using JNI...
18:22:04 <pikhq> YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
18:22:34 <fizzie> http://kks.cabal.fi/SampoApplet has a bit of decompilation; it does quite a lot of user-hardware-sniffing, probably to provide some sort of per-machine ID.
18:23:19 <fizzie> And http://hsivonen.iki.fi/sampo-epic-multifail/ has the full story.
18:23:58 <fizzie> It was certainly kind of them to provide a spectacle.
18:25:08 <pikhq> And what a spectacle.
18:25:42 <fizzie> Especially that point where their pages just displayed the short text "404 multifail", you can't get much better even with planning, let alone by accident.
18:25:55 <ais523> aren't all South Korean banks required to use ActiveX for security?
18:26:14 <ais523> I'm surprised any exist at all, given the contradiction there
18:26:35 <fizzie> There was at least one Chinese bank requiring ActiveX.
18:32:33 <ehird> 18:21] fizzie: That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank.
18:33:15 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
18:33:18 <fizzie> Of course it was only when you bought from their partner-computer-salesplace or some-such.
18:33:22 <pikhq> Is security so damned hard?
18:33:32 <ais523> security is very easy to get wrong
18:33:39 <ais523> sufficiently so, that it's unknown how easy it is to get right
18:34:20 <ehird> “Se ei ole aukko, kunnes me pystymme itse varmistamaan että se on aukko.” (“It is not a hole until we are able to verify ourselves that it is a hole.”) — Hannu Vuola, head of communications at Sampo Pankki in a later revised news item in Helsingin Sanomat on the topic of a gaping XSS hole in Sampo’s net bank
18:34:20 <ehird> http://kottke.org/04/07/my-new-policy
18:34:24 <ehird> We have a policy that it is not a hole.
18:38:17 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:43:38 <ehird> there needs to be an api on the internet that lets you get every page.
18:44:40 <oklopil> i don't seem to understand sentences today.
18:44:58 <pikhq> What, like... HTTP?
18:45:28 <Asztal> maybe more like gopher
18:46:09 <Sgeo> Is there anything wrong with using openid-provider.appspot.com for my OpenID needs?
18:46:28 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, it only supports openid 1
18:46:33 <ehird> and is unmaintained
18:46:54 <ehird> either go with myopenid.com, which is owned by a big openid player
18:46:57 <ehird> or host your own with phpmyid
18:47:41 * Sgeo used to use um,
18:47:52 <Sgeo> Something that died
18:48:10 <ehird> See? Don't do that.
18:48:30 <ehird> Also, Google provides OpenIDs officially now, although crippeldly.
18:48:38 <ehird> pikhq: not http, EVERY page
18:48:43 <Asztal> myopenid.com makes SSL client certificates for you :)
18:49:40 <ehird> Sgeo: remember to use a domain you control
18:49:50 <ehird> and just set the openid in a yadis file w/ http header, or in the html
18:49:54 <ehird> even if you use another provider
18:49:58 <ehird> if your provider dies
18:50:00 <ehird> you can just switch over
18:50:03 <ehird> and use the same id
18:50:21 <Sgeo> Hm, good point
18:50:55 <Sgeo> Not so easy for, say, Joe the Plumber, though
18:51:03 <ehird> are you joe the plumber?
18:51:11 <ehird> protip: NOBODY'S JOE THE PLUMBER
18:51:39 <ehird> there are people who only have like 3 accounts; they don't need openid. there are people who have a bunch of accounts but can't set up their own domain; they will use one of the providers directly.
18:51:43 <ehird> then there's everyone else.
18:51:57 <ehird> at the moment, the second group barely uses openid
18:52:05 <Asztal> There's probably wordpress plugins and whatever for it to make it easier, anyway
18:52:38 <ehird> right someone who has a wordpress blog they can put plugins on falls in the third category
18:55:11 <ehird> if there's bicycles and unicycles and tricycles
18:55:35 <ehird> why isn't there a nilcycle
18:56:05 * Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason
18:56:12 <ehird> too fast how oklopil xD
18:56:20 <oklopil> well, it only made sense as a correct guess of what you'd say.
18:56:22 <ehird> a stick can't get you places
18:56:41 <ehird> all the others can
18:56:41 <fizzie> Tie a carrot to the stick and it can get you to places.
18:56:56 <ehird> you have to have pedals
18:56:58 <ehird> all of them have pedals
18:57:02 <ehird> so i'm thinking that these pedals, like
18:57:05 <ehird> lift it off the air a bit
18:57:13 <ehird> so it's basically a pogo stick except you pedal
18:57:39 <ehird> the challenge is not lunging forwards and hitting your head on the ground
18:57:45 <oklopil> you can turn with a pogo stick
18:58:17 <ehird> not with handlebars
18:58:53 <oklopil> well you turn with it the same way you do with a unicycle, so i'd count it
18:59:03 <oklopil> but yeah pedals should probably exist.
18:59:20 <oklopil> also unicycles don't usually have hb's
18:59:42 <ehird> there should be a unicycle that's really a bicycle with just one wheel
19:00:45 <oklopil> Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason <<< you just don't know ehird
19:01:03 <ehird> anyway for a nilcycle you just take a bike-unicycle and remove the wheel, then hook the pedals up to like... a fan that spins really fast to lift you up a little bit
19:01:16 <ehird> the handlebars move around the thing holding the fan
19:01:16 * Sgeo isn't paying full attention to the chat
19:01:19 <Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:01:57 <ehird> `addquote <Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
19:01:59 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
19:02:05 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:02:20 <ehird> `addquote <Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:02:22 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:02:25 <Sgeo> ...arbitrary code?
19:03:55 <ehird> <Sgeo> LOL RM -RF / GREGOR MUST BE STOOPID
19:04:37 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ tmpdir.25063
19:04:58 <HackEgo> bin \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.25131
19:05:18 <Sgeo> `cat /etc/passwd\
19:05:21 <Sgeo> `cat /etc/passwd
19:05:34 <Sgeo> ..what constitutes output?
19:05:34 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
19:05:37 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:05:55 <Sgeo> `ls ~/bin/creatures
19:05:57 <ehird> `url bin/creatures
19:05:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/creatures
19:06:09 <ehird> `creatures User:Sgeo
19:06:11 <HackEgo> \ I'm the one who created this project. Known as Sgeo almost everywhere I'm known, one place as Oegs, and one place as Sgeo2.
19:06:32 <Sgeo> What happens if there's too much output?
19:06:37 <Sgeo> `creatures Norn
19:06:39 <HackEgo> \ Norns (Cyberlifogenis cutis) are a [9]species of [10]creature, created by the [11]Shee to entertain them and serve [12]tea and [13]biscuits. They were [14]genetically engineered on the disc-shaped planet [15]Albia. Many were abandoned there as the [16]Shee took off in their spaceship, the [17]Ark (although they took a few of
19:06:47 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
19:06:59 <ehird> `run creatures Norn | paste
19:07:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13876
19:07:28 <Sgeo> The one place I'm known as Oegs is now dead
19:07:48 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:07:52 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10253 \ 10254 \ 10256 \ 10258 \ 10259 \ 10265 \ 10319 \ 10322 \ 10326 \ 10327 \ 10329 \ 104 \ 105 \ 10562 \ 10563 \ 11057 \ 11069 \ 11074 \ 11457 \ 1149 \ 11501 \ 11753 \ 11772 \ 11776 \ 12046 \ 1291 \ 13928 \ 13946 \ 13948 \ 1418 \ 1421 \ 14617 \ 14636 \ 14640 \ 1486 \ 15310 \ 15316 \ 15317 \ 15318 \ 15324 \ 15325 \ 15543
19:07:58 <ehird> `run ls /proc | paste
19:07:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25089
19:08:13 <ehird> `run url <(ls /proc)
19:08:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//dev/fd/63
19:10:19 <ais523> I actually clicked on that last link, just because I was curious as to what codu's reaction would be
19:10:29 <ais523> <codu.org> error: dev/fd/63@b7f832f99b43: not found in manifest
19:10:37 <ehird> yeah, it's just looking it up in the hg repository
19:23:37 * ehird hatches an evil plan
19:24:35 <ais523> commit the hg repo into itself?
19:25:20 <ehird> found a little software ditty that makes a virtual screen on your network and lets you connect via vnc
19:25:30 <ehird> = iphone + old mac can be extra screenies
19:27:35 <ehird> admittedly not ones of any great size, but.
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19:32:54 <augur> ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird MONAD NOMAD
19:33:07 <ehird> Ohh, it's a nomad.
19:33:11 <ehird> Where'd the topic go?
19:33:22 <augur> I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
19:35:39 <ehird> It's not showing up here.
19:35:52 <augur> so i got an apartment! :D
19:36:54 <ehird> hmm screenrecycler doesn't appear to let you change the res
19:37:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
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19:38:41 <ehird> ok the vnc works... slowly
19:40:01 <augur> ive decided im going to get into
19:40:24 <ehird> augur: i thought you already worked wood
19:40:25 <augur> specifically, studio craft
19:40:35 <augur> (oh ill work your wood alright)
19:40:39 <augur> and puzzlebox making
19:41:16 <augur> which implied a sexual overture
19:42:08 <augur> like in hellraiser :X
19:42:12 <augur> or atleast similar
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19:45:44 <Robdgreat> augur: was about to ask if your head was riddled with pins
19:46:06 <augur> but then, pinhead doesnt make the lament configurations
19:46:09 <ehird> meh fuck iphone, I'ma using mah old crt
19:46:09 <augur> the engineer makes them.
19:46:16 <ehird> it is actually slower
19:46:27 <ehird> its advantage is being plugged in to ethernet and having perhiphrials of course
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19:51:20 <fizzie> ehird: Speaking of phones, I'm trying out ssh+irssi with this N-Gage. The horror!
19:52:22 <fizzie> Takes about 30 of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key.
19:53:08 <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:53:45 <ehird> `addquote <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:53:47 <HackEgo> 61|<fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:55:56 <fizzie> 34x26 characters with a 4x6 font.
19:55:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> only by AnMaster <-- even when reading the context I'm not sure if you mean A) Adding javadoc to generated code. B) NOT doing A. C) Adding javadoc to hand written code.
19:56:21 <ais523> I meant C, but I doubt it matters
19:56:35 <AnMaster> well I ran into both sorts of code
19:57:05 <AnMaster> other than me certainly add doxygen/javadoc/edoc/<whatever is used for the relevant language>
19:58:20 <ehird> i like how you corrected it and it's still wrong
19:58:34 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Takes about 30 [seconds] of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key. <-- sounds to me like either slow or severely overloaded host for the ssh server?
19:58:47 <ehird> Or… it's a fuckin' mobile phone!
19:59:29 <ehird> does anyone know a vnc client for mac os 9?
19:59:56 <AnMaster> because, iirc the client part doesn't need to do as much processing as the server side.
20:00:30 <AnMaster> and I don't know enough about the protocol details to be able to confirm/deny it.
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20:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just wondering what the hell you plan to do. VNC *server* I could have understood.
20:17:19 <AnMaster> and: no idea of such a software
20:17:33 <ehird> I installed a program that creates a virtual screen and exposes it via VNC.
20:17:46 <ehird> = Who doesn't want an extra 800x600 of realestate running on a slow OS on a loud computer?
20:17:48 <AnMaster> and you want to use a CRT for it?
20:18:01 <ehird> That's all I have, man.
20:18:09 <ehird> Well, I tried my iPhone.
20:18:15 <ehird> Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:18:32 <ais523> you can make your mouse into an 800x600 screen?
20:18:45 <ais523> theory: optical mice can control the brightness of the laser they use to illuminate the table below them
20:18:50 <ehird> When did I say mouse?
20:18:51 <ais523> and can also tell where they are, due to being mice
20:18:57 <ais523> <ehird> Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:19:08 <ais523> so, in theory, you could get an optical mouse and move it around in midair really quickly
20:19:10 <ehird> 20:18] ehird: Well, I tried my iPhone.
20:19:11 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:19:23 <ais523> and it could project a screen onto the surface below it
20:19:26 <AnMaster> I think ais523 is trying to joke
20:19:32 <ais523> reasons this doesn't work: no mouse is that fast and accurate
20:19:35 <ehird> ais523: that could work for vector graphics
20:19:41 <ehird> also, optical mice are sort of obsolete
20:19:50 <ais523> ehird: well, they're still common regardless
20:20:00 <ais523> what's replacing them?
20:20:10 <ehird> they're similar but work on every surface
20:20:13 <ehird> and you can't see their beam
20:20:17 <AnMaster> ehird, most new mice that aren't especially marketed to gamers seems to be optical ones still
20:20:26 <ais523> you could do the same thing just with visible light, and use the same trick
20:20:35 <ehird> and get an invisible screen!
20:20:50 <ais523> do it on a flourescent surface that makes the beam visible
20:20:55 <ehird> it's more zen this way
20:21:07 <ehird> then, put it in public and "show" pornography on it
20:21:15 <ehird> you get to edgily challenge the law and be an artist in one go!
20:21:19 <ehird> except nobody would notice.
20:21:25 <AnMaster> anyway... how would the mouse be moved? By the user still?
20:21:41 <AnMaster> if so he/she would basically draw his/her own screen and decide what is on it
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20:21:47 <ehird> by a machine if you want to have any hope at it
20:21:51 <ais523> hmm... clearly mice need motors to move around
20:21:52 <AnMaster> unless I guess you track the position of the mouse
20:21:55 <ehird> since you'd have to oscillate between two positions
20:21:58 <ehird> incredibly quickly
20:22:00 <ais523> after all, programs can move the mouse pointer
20:22:08 <AnMaster> light only active when it is supposed to draw something
20:22:11 <ais523> if that doesn't move the mouse too, clearly you have a leaky correspondence
20:22:17 <AnMaster> and the user moves it back and forth to let it fill in
20:22:27 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand
20:22:31 <ehird> as soon as you move away the light is gone
20:22:45 <ehird> ais523: not really
20:22:48 <ehird> your mousepad is smaller than your screen
20:22:53 <ehird> and you backtrack to start moving again often
20:22:57 <AnMaster> the effect will be rather like, one of those special papers where you use a pencil on the side to draw and they used some special surface to make it stick better to some areas
20:22:57 <ehird> so it's not a 1:1 mapping already
20:23:01 <ehird> also, mouse acceleration
20:23:08 <AnMaster> on a flourescent surface of course
20:23:10 <ais523> ehird: some people literally can't access the parts of their screen that don't correspond to locations for the mouse
20:23:17 <AnMaster> also you need a ball then to track without making it flourescent
20:23:19 <ais523> because they don't realise they can pick the mouse up and move it elsewhere
20:23:24 <ehird> ais523: not literally can't
20:23:27 <ehird> they're physically capable
20:23:28 <ais523> ehird: as in, don't know how
20:23:38 <ehird> ais523: yes, I was calling out your misuse of "literally"
20:23:42 <ehird> literally means literally
20:23:47 <ais523> anyway, my 'mousepad' is bigger than my screen
20:23:51 <ais523> so I can aim for the corners and sides easily
20:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're asking about two balls ask augur
20:24:04 <Deewiant> ehird: If they're mentally incapable they literally can't do it.
20:24:17 <ehird> Deewiant: they're able, they just haven't thought of it
20:25:00 <ehird> your definition of able is fucked up
20:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, to track mouse orientation and position so it can use the laser on the flourescent surface only, needs balls to track position with laser turned off
20:25:06 <ehird> i haven't jumped out of a window today
20:25:13 <ehird> however i am perfectly able of doing so
20:25:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm using a private SSH key; it's the decrypting of that which takes the 30 seconds, I think, since it hangs up immediately after giving it a passphrase, and then unhangs at the moment it starts sending packets out (sez tcpdump) to the SSH server.
20:25:38 <Deewiant> The people in question are unable without outside assistance
20:25:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, decrypting the private key? :D
20:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also hang up? as in closing the TCP connection?
20:26:24 <ehird> Deewiant: your definition of able sucks
20:26:33 <AnMaster> how is that supposed to work...
20:26:33 <ehird> they are not unable; they could do it by mistake
20:26:37 <ehird> they just haven't thought of it
20:26:39 <fizzie> Well, that, or doing whatever the SSH protocol needs to have be done with the key, I don't really know the details. TCP doesn't mind a pause of half a minute, the UI just is unresponsive that long.
20:26:58 <Deewiant> ehird: I suppose you're also capable of proving Fermat's last theorem, since you could if somebody told you how?
20:27:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, with "hang up" you don't mean a TCP RST package?
20:27:21 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't respond to analogies that don't actually analogise properly
20:27:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable.
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20:28:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Seems like the same thing to me, but whatever.
20:28:45 <ehird> Deewiant: you may be right, it just sits badly with me
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20:33:28 <Sgeo> Where are the dangeroos?
20:33:45 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable.
20:33:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, good analogy in fact...
20:33:51 <AnMaster> not sure if anything was missed there
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20:35:01 <fizzie> Both of your lines I never saw.
20:39:53 <Sgeo> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
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22:49:03 <ehird> this desk is so stupid with its sharp end of the keyboard stand thing
22:49:06 <ehird> why isn't it curved
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23:05:05 <ehird> portability makes programming unfun, I've decided
23:05:47 <pikhq> Exception: Haskell.
23:06:02 <ehird> i'm referring to lower-level sort of programming ofc
23:06:07 <pikhq> (and other high-level languages, but those are less awesome. :P)
23:06:23 <ehird> without portability you can embed machine code, use hardcoded addresses, poke registers, use hardware without abstraction layers and generally poke all around
23:06:29 <pikhq> Well, yeah. C++ and down, portability?
23:06:33 <ehird> layers of abstraction are inherently more limited and thus less fun
23:06:41 <pikhq> That's a royal bitch.
23:06:43 <ehird> and in fact the best situation is when there's only one model
23:06:46 <ehird> same speeds of everything
23:06:52 <ehird> then you can use precise timing, talk about how fast things are in literal terms
23:07:20 <pikhq> ehird, portability in those languages is not merely unfun, it is the antifun.
23:07:27 <ehird> …which brings me to my point: i want an OLPC so I can hack with Forth on openfirmware :)
23:07:33 <ehird> although that chiclet keyboard looks unfun.
23:07:41 <ehird> also I've read negative things about the olpc people
23:07:52 <ehird> why can't I buy an olpc from the company before they did that?
23:07:52 <pikhq> Having to just deal with different UNIXes is a PITA.
23:08:03 <ehird> well okay you can't really buy it but.
23:08:10 <pikhq> (I offer Autotools as proof of that)
23:09:24 <ehird> what lead to my revelation: being on an island and having a vis— wait, that was John. What I meant to say was http://lukego.livejournal.com/8427.html.
23:10:48 <ehird> hmph, you can buy an olpc but for >$300 since you have to buy an extra one for some stupid kid in africa :-P
23:11:22 <ehird> oh, they're not even doing that program any more
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23:42:51 <ehird> Forth is a wonderful language
23:44:38 <ehird> Hey, that's the solution to my JIT-in-assembler woes!
23:44:42 <ehird> Write the core OS in Forth!
23:47:36 -!- mycrofti1 has changed nick to mycroftiv.
23:52:57 <ehird> Forth is awesome, don't you agree?
23:54:02 <mycroftiv> i havent used it personally so i dont actually have an opinion on forth, really
23:54:48 <ehird> Extremely minimal implementation, unifying paradigm/execution mechanism and extreme flexibility; with the flexibility not only being idiomatic but pretty much The Way To Do It.
23:54:55 <ehird> Sounds like a good mix to me.
23:55:38 <mycroftiv> i like a lot of the concepts, the reflexivity and integrating compilation with the main environment
23:56:15 <ehird> I also like that it brings such expressiveness to real-time hackery of low-level hardware.
23:57:36 <mycroftiv> my grandfather started me out on RPN with this ancient hewlett-packard calculator that cost probably 500 million dollars in the late 60s currency he bought it with, but i still havent quite learned to parse that kind of stack based stuff as well as i should by eye
23:59:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: the nice thing about forth is that it doesn't generally read like rpn
23:59:28 <ehird> because of parsing words that can read ahead and the general natural language formation
00:00:41 <mycroftiv> what is some of your thinking on symbols and syntax?
00:01:43 <mycroftiv> i find it incredibly frustrating that compared to mathematics, the use of symbols in computer languages is entirely inconsistent and contradictory
00:02:10 <ehird> Syntax is a bloody pain in the arse.
00:02:34 <ehird> I think to improve on it we need to take cues from user interface design, because that's what it is.
00:03:15 <ehird> I dislike s-expressions because they put a less common usecase, metaprogramming, over the more common one: regular programming.
00:03:34 <ehird> I'm pro-metaprogramming, but the whole language doesn't have to be made worse just for it.
00:03:55 <mycroftiv> ill accept that, thats for sure - you always want the stuff you do the most often to have the most direct expression
00:07:20 <ehird> otoh, sometimes tailoring syntax for metaprogramming can lead to great things
00:07:35 <ehird> e.g. a forth example: (I'll pastebin a console log due to laziness)
00:07:38 <mycroftiv> definitely, its very interesting the power of just a graceful noptation
00:08:09 <ehird> http://pastie.org/570426.txt?key=2vfkfnbijhced9ucvqbjw
00:08:20 <ehird> with a less minimal syntax, I couldn't have done that
00:08:30 <ehird> I couldn't have my definitions be the form they create
00:08:54 <ehird> : \n cr ; was a bit gratuitous now that i think about it
00:09:28 <mycroftiv> very nice compressed expression of meaning, absolutely
00:10:16 <ehird> but I haven't seen forth scale up to a smalltalk-esque system
00:10:33 <ehird> rich structures in forth, for instance, are not really practical
00:10:38 <ehird> (rich = smalltalk object level)
00:10:56 <ehird> so I think it's good for hacking up stuff, exploring and the lower-level systems
00:11:05 <ehird> and perhaps isolated components
00:11:06 <ehird> which is still an awful lot
00:12:01 <mycroftiv> ive been playing with an idea for a language that im not entirely sure really makes sense or not, but i guess this is the place to throw it out there
00:12:29 <mycroftiv> its an incredibly minimalistic language based on the observation that such a huge amount of lines of code are just assignment statements
00:12:59 <mycroftiv> and also the observation in plan9 that everything somehow works in a somewhat similar way, with bind NEW OLD constantly - just making NEW a new name for OLD, which is basically like an assignment
00:13:54 <mycroftiv> so the idea is that you are given to stat - a basic environment that just has names that correspond to various basic functions (obviously a name for screen display, a name for keyboard input, that kind of thing)
00:14:20 <ehird> mycroftiv: note that in haskell assignment is much less common
00:14:23 <mycroftiv> and then the only thing you ever do - the only statement that exists - is just assignment / binding - you get tokens also of course to work with, numbers and letters etc
00:14:30 <mycroftiv> i understand the functional languages are totally different
00:14:34 <ehird> as generally you just make transformations, sometimes splitting a value into two to retain one or to perform two operations
00:14:39 <ehird> just throwing it out there
00:14:51 <ehird> I'm not convinced that assignment as an operation is very useful
00:14:56 <ehird> as opposed to a syntactic denotation of a name
00:15:24 <mycroftiv> well thats really exactly what im trying to get at
00:15:40 <ehird> so how do you use assignment to do things?
00:15:46 <mycroftiv> the idea that maybe you can make an enviroment where 'all you do' is just define the names
00:16:15 <mycroftiv> well, you obviously have to have some names/objects that correspond in a simple way to things like input and output
00:16:48 <mycroftiv> as a very lame conceptual example, the idea that you can do 'bind keyboard screen' - and then what you type shows up on the screen - captures a little bit of it
00:17:11 <ehird> as graphical noise, I assume
00:17:26 <ehird> mycroftiv: anyway, that's a distinct operation from assignment
00:17:42 <ehird> it's plugging one thing into another
00:17:49 <mycroftiv> because i can conceptualize assignment as making a variable a 'label' for a number
00:18:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: piping the value to a program which holds on to it
00:18:12 <ehird> and then outputs it forever
00:18:40 <mycroftiv> sure, there are lots of mappings of what is going on
00:20:05 <mycroftiv> the core of the idea is just an environment where all you do is create the names you want to use, decide what labels will refer to what tokens/values, and 'thats it'
00:21:02 <ehird> I don't think it's assignment.
00:21:16 <mycroftiv> thats true, but since the language doesnt have assingment as a separate concept...
00:21:29 <mycroftiv> it seems like the idea of 'naming' can kind of encompass it - in fact, 'late binding' is really related
00:21:46 <mycroftiv> late binding plays with the distinction between 'just a name' and an actual 'changing a thing' right?
00:22:11 <ehird> Late binding just changes how names are resolved, not assigned
00:22:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: I think assignment is a *subset* of your operation.
00:22:34 <mycroftiv> oh yeah absolutely, thats the idea
00:27:18 <mycroftiv> its obviously a conceptual/experimental language, the question being 'what is the minimal set of initial objects/tokens that you need for such an environment to be theoretically usable and turing complete?'
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00:29:15 <mycroftiv> just to easily establish that its certainly possible, you could obviously supply an environment where the premade objects that you get to rename/bind are an infinitely long tape, a collection of 'stateholders' and then the obvious mark-making rules - of course at that point youve just overlaid a silly semantics across a generic utm, but its just a limit case
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00:31:24 <oerjan> GregorR-L: i am not sure it is very wise to worship ehird
00:31:52 <oerjan> ehird: he greeted you with OMG
00:32:33 <oerjan> ehird and GregorR-L and oerjan, oh my
00:32:45 * ehird warship's your mom
00:32:51 <ehird> without the apostrophe
00:32:58 <ehird> shit that's the first apostrophe mistake i've made in, like, years
00:33:03 * GregorR-L , oerjan and Deewiant should from a clique and call it GOD
00:33:10 <oerjan> beware, though, of the wereship
00:33:46 <ehird> I should form a clique and call it E
00:35:01 <ehird> "Man would i hate to be oedipus, just imagine your liver being eaten by a whale every morning because you fell into the water"
00:36:07 <oerjan> sadly, there is no E13 or E14 simple lie group
00:36:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know right :D
00:37:13 <oerjan> FAIL mythological biology, or...
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00:37:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: From now on "fell into the water" will be coy talk for "fucked yer mum"
00:37:59 <oerjan> oh wait, that was prometheus
00:38:19 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/973fj/the_gamers_dream_girlfriend_pic/c0bnqyz
00:38:25 <ehird> I think it's like 70 things in once
00:38:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: What does liver being eaten mean?
00:38:42 <ehird> How does the whale effect it?
00:38:46 <ehird> What about morning?
00:39:50 <GregorR-L> His liver metaphorically represents his honor for his father.
00:39:59 <GregorR-L> Which is destroyed (eaten) early in his life (in the morning)
00:40:19 <GregorR-L> The whale represents the fact that whales are cool.
00:40:22 * oerjan swats GregorR-L -----###
00:40:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: But every morning?
00:40:32 <oerjan> (for the in the morning reference)
00:40:33 <ehird> So, like, reincarnation?
00:48:02 <oerjan> a deep well, with a whale in it
00:51:49 <ehird> I am now convinced that a system with Forth at the low-level and Lisp or Smalltalk at the high-level is the way to go.
00:52:42 <oerjan> i think the highlevel language should be called Multiply, for obvious reasons
01:01:43 <ehird> oerjan: no, clearly it should be Fift or Fith
01:02:07 <ehird> ("Fiff't" and… "Fith", respectively.)
01:02:59 <oerjan> ehird doesn't like my pun :(
01:10:53 <ehird> Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?
01:11:38 <ehird> So can we have the red/grue colour system? :-)
01:11:51 <mycroftiv> grue/bleen is superior - you know that paradox?
01:12:12 <mycroftiv> its an attack on the validity of inductive reasoning
01:13:03 <mycroftiv> define the property 'grue' to mean 'green before the year 2050, blue afterwards' and 'bleen' to mean 'blue before 2050, green afterwards' - the problem is:
01:13:20 <mycroftiv> how can we say 'the sky is blue' is a better statement than 'the sky is bleen' ?
01:13:34 <mycroftiv> since all the observational evidence that confirms the first also confirms the second
01:13:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term
01:14:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: I was just using the term referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language
01:14:59 <ehird> [[Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?]]
01:15:04 <ehird> s/colours/cultures/ ofc
01:15:12 <oerjan> "Thus, the three most basic colors are black, white, and red (in his 1924 book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler described this as his justification for his choice of the colors for the Nazi flag, as he felt these three colors would most appeal to the masses)."
01:15:38 <mycroftiv> doesnt research show that there is actually a set progression for the introduction of color words into languages?
01:15:45 <ehird> mycroftiv: sort of.
01:15:57 <oerjan> mycroftiv: that's what the link refers to
01:16:53 <mycroftiv> i pride myself on trying to talk out my ass based on pre existing knowledge without letting the wikipedia borg always outthink me - its a losing battle
01:17:15 <mycroftiv> you know, when i was a kid and we were talking about what sci-fi was real and what wasnt
01:17:43 <oerjan> hitler had particular foresight there, since the actual scientific study wasn't until 1969
01:17:50 <mycroftiv> i thought, based on what i knew about computers at the time - early 80s - that the single most bs thing in scifi was the computer on the Enterprise in star trek that could answer any question you asked perfectly
01:18:08 <mycroftiv> little did i know id be feeling obsoleted by such a device just a couple decades later
01:18:11 <ehird> well that's mathematically impossible :-P
01:18:21 <ehird> anyway wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all /shrug
01:18:51 <mycroftiv> oh yeah no doubt, sucks in a ton of ways - i used to spend hours and hours trying to work as an editor on the classical music articles
01:19:09 <ehird> unfortunately wikipedia only works because of its truly sad editor base
01:19:17 <ehird> I depress myself just looking at the non-article pages
01:19:26 <mycroftiv> i also was part of a horrible, horrible long running fight to save the 'einstein' wikipedia page from long term attack by these people who felt like einstein stole it all from henri poincare - which is actually a complex issue
01:19:36 <mycroftiv> and made for a truly amazing struggle that was like 2 years long
01:20:23 <ehird> wikipedia's, in general, a bunch of idiotic naive people who are all despicably sociopathic: ridiculous abundances of community "friendship" with unbelievable cliques, cabals and the like; incredibly focused on bureaucracy; and truly spiteful and hateful to anyone they oppose
01:20:56 <mycroftiv> yeah i certainly couldnt deal with the social aspect of the editing universe, i just tried to work purely on content
01:20:56 <ehird> oh, and they're all utterly obsessed with wikipedia
01:21:06 <ehird> i've never seen a significant editor who has a life and doesn't dedicate so much time to it
01:21:17 <mycroftiv> i still clean up pages as seems needed, but i often do it anon rather than logging into my editor account
01:21:19 <ehird> it's an utter shame that without these awful people, wikipedia wouldn't really work
01:24:06 <mycroftiv> actually, i think wikipedia is amazingly successful in that regard - when you think about the human energy that pre-wikipedia would have gone into purely personal obsessiveness, that now can be devoted to making sure that all fancruft in a given area is rigidly thought-policed for series continuity failures, its amazing
01:24:52 <ehird> still a bit depressing though
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01:28:45 <ehird> Doo doo doo, Forth is fun, doo doo doo, Smalltalk is fun. It's nice to see a plan come together. …although nicer to see it implemented, which would be very unlike me.
01:34:03 <oerjan> but then you would be able to cackle maniackally!
01:35:27 <oerjan> hm, maniack would be a nice term for a mad scientist, analogous to magick
01:39:19 <ehird> Maniack's Almanack of Magick
01:40:08 <oerjan> "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science"
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03:20:48 <pikhq> OCZ is selling 1TB SSDs...
03:20:48 <pikhq> Jeeze, that's crazy.
03:21:12 <pikhq> Oh, *now* I'm impressed.
03:21:34 <pikhq> That's right. Hard drive manufacturer using binary units. Fuck yeah.
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08:12:30 <mycroftiv> anyone who wants to leave their mind a smoking crater of knowledge can check:
08:40:00 <Gracenotes> is that the self-published papers site?
08:40:40 <Gracenotes> whoa, category theory in quantum physics
08:42:09 <mycroftiv> very respected researcher, this is a major summary paper of the state of his thinking on some amazing cross-disciplinary connections
08:43:07 <mycroftiv> for computer oriented people, the later section of the paper is obviously going to be 'home turf' but the whole point is the extensive and formally valid 'mapping between mappings of mappings'
08:45:07 <Gracenotes> how conceptual/abstract is the mapping?
08:45:20 <Gracenotes> hm, if it is actually formally valid...
08:45:36 <mycroftiv> well, since its category theory in the first place, its very very abstract - but it is also serious formal mathematics, not at all somebody making up bs
08:46:24 <Gracenotes> I mean abstract more in a philosophical way.. but if you say there's no BS :P
08:47:12 <mycroftiv> well the goal of the paper is definitely philosophical, to show the deep structural correspondences between different fields, but the mechanism is a careful formal investigation of the actual mathematical content of the disciplines
08:48:34 <mycroftiv> the author, john baez, has one of the best websites that has ever been on the internet, 'this week's finds in mathematical physics' which was a 'blog' before anybody invented that ugly word - started on january 19 1993, how about that!
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10:02:51 <immibis> http://normish.org/home/immibis/jsrotate/
10:04:24 <Deewiant> Heikki Kallasjoki's Master's thesis presentation 11.8
10:04:41 <Deewiant> I'll be there and ask tricky questions
10:05:49 <fizzie> There's also Teemu Ruokolainen's (another guy in the speech group) similar presentation there in ten minutes; I'm about to go there to do some reconnaissance to see what them things are like.
10:06:45 <Deewiant> I've been to a few; the topic doesn't interest me that much so I wasn't planning on bothering with that one
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10:53:57 <fizzie> Heh, there was pretty much just the speech group people in that one, plus I guess some others involved in the two EU-funded projects it was related to.
10:54:32 <fizzie> The A328 room is not that big (fits maybe a dozen people comfortably) so don't start any mass movements, now.
10:56:34 <fizzie> I think I'm going to just keep my SPECOM'09 conference presentation again, to save some preparation time. Maybe slightly altered.
10:58:51 <oklopil> you can't reuse a presentation, that's like having two of the same pokemon in a ball
10:59:20 <fizzie> I don't think I know what that means. Does it mean they start procreating in there?
11:00:05 <oklopil> i actually have no idea, it started with like having these packs of pokemon cards, what if someone gets a pokemon they already have, then i just mixed it up a bit
11:00:50 <oklopil> if someone already heard it, they'll probably laugh at you and throw a shoe
11:01:43 <oklopil> (kinda like you throw pokeballs?)
11:01:53 <fizzie> Mikko's probably going to be there, and he's heard it already. It's probably harder to do shoe-avoidance in a small room, even.
11:03:11 <fizzie> Anyway, there's that famous mathematician joke with the "reduce to a problem that's already solved" theme; I'm just applying that to the presentation.
11:03:35 <oklopil> well i guess that makes sense
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13:09:00 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
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15:15:30 <nooga> my regexp based C++ code analyzer is done :D
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15:52:12 <pikhq> Shame that it probably fails.
15:52:22 <pikhq> (irregular syntax and all that jazz
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16:01:12 <edwardk> nooga: what can it analyze?
16:10:20 <oklopil> pikhq: i doubt it fails if it just does comments, because c++ has a fairly simple lexing
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16:12:34 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, that'd help a lot.
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16:23:17 <Deewiant> Hey, what is edwardk doing here
16:23:30 <Deewiant> Planning on making an esolang based on category-extras? :-P
16:23:49 <Deewiant> (Or did you decide that it counts as an esolang as-is)
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16:26:19 <edwardk> Deewiant: actually thats kind of what kata is ;)
16:26:49 <edwardk> Deewiant: a little less esoteric than the meat and potatos of this community though ;)
16:28:03 <ais523> hmm... yet another person here I don't recognise, this channel seems to be expanding massively atm
16:28:09 <Deewiant> Does Kata have anything online? A quick google only gives a few mentions
16:28:17 <edwardk> ais523: i wander in every few months
16:28:54 <edwardk> Deewiant: not yet, you can get some glimmers from the hac phi photos which generally have lots of kata scribbled on the walls, but hrmm. i have an old syntax fragment here somewhere
16:29:17 <edwardk> deewiant: http://comonad.com/Category.ks-old -- read class as an ML module signature
16:30:17 <oklopil> edwardk's been here a few times
16:31:04 <Deewiant> Maybe I would if I knew any ML
16:31:19 <oklopil> unfortunately no one was fluent enough in category theory to understand him
16:31:56 <Deewiant> http://yorgeys.smugmug.com/gallery/9039600_Ra9wn/2/601548443_XZNvE#601548455_HVNez-A-LB appears to have some Kata too, yes
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17:19:43 <ehird_> I haven't said anything all day
17:24:47 <oklopil> i don't use anything else, but the bigger ones are kinda annoying to carry around
17:28:08 <oklopil> 18:46 CESSMASTER has joined #ESOTERIC <<< does the server send the capitalization you use when you join? 8|
17:28:22 <oklopil> (19:04 Asztal has joined #esoteric)
17:36:07 <Asztal> but without laptops I will never have a LAN party on a train
17:37:22 <ehird_> they suck because there isn't one that's good for me :P
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18:15:32 * pikhq sticks the insane uberbuild in a laptop case
18:15:48 <pikhq> (ignore the inexplicable bending of spacetime involved, please)
18:17:07 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
18:18:55 <pikhq> ehird_: Just the current one.
18:19:39 <ehird_> pikhq: but how long does the battery last and how heavy is it?!
18:20:04 <pikhq> ehird_: Approximately 5 minutes, and it weighs a few hundred pounds.k
18:20:15 <ehird_> pikhq: 5 minutes? That must be a looooot of batteries.
18:20:35 <pikhq> ehird_: Well, it's an uberbuild. Surely you wouldn't skimp on the UPS?
18:20:47 <ehird_> For a laptop. Yes. Yes I would :P
18:21:16 <pikhq> What, you don't have titanium legs?
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18:39:13 <Deewiant> http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us/
18:39:58 <pikhq> I could've sworn Homo erectus went extinct quite a while ago.
18:40:19 <pikhq> (unless you count Homo floriensus as a subspecies of erectus))
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18:56:21 <ehird_> "1. Race does not exist - a black person is just a white person with a suntan and wooly hair."
19:10:18 <ehird_> Deewiant: so wtf is that site about
19:11:21 <ehird_> seems to be pro eugenics, lawl
19:12:33 <Deewiant> 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) If you recognize that Negroes carry mostly Homo Erectus traits ( http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us ) while all other races evolved fully into humans, you will love Chimpout.com! WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS, rather NEGRO INFERIORISTS!
19:12:37 <Deewiant> We at Chimpout.com love the rainbow diversity of humanity and welcome Asians, non-Negroid Hispanics, Semites, Indians, Gays, Whites, Turkics, etc. After all, I am Mexican. Join in the epic battle of hu
19:12:39 <Deewiant> 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) man vs NIIIIGGGGER at Chimpout Forums! http://www.chimpout.com/forum
19:15:32 <ehird_> Deewiant: what channel's that from :D
19:15:32 <pikhq> Ah, Homo sapiens stultus.
19:15:41 <ehird_> Homo sapiens niggerus.
19:15:57 <ehird_> Deewiant: did he just say that and run or was he kicked?
19:16:17 <Deewiant> He had a chance to say it twice before that
19:17:10 <ehird_> "I've been "debating" a nigger on youtube who thinks he "be an Izraelite an' sheyit". I've been kicking this nigger's ass throughout the debate (yet in typical nigger fashion, he thinks he's winning lol)"
19:17:10 <ehird_> Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger. Nigger, nigger! Nigger.
19:17:10 <ehird_> It's a whole new language.\
19:17:36 <ehird_> "Niggers don't have skin, they have hide because they run around the jungle as naked savage apes."
19:18:26 <ehird_> [[You can trot out all the "magic niggers" such as Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell all you want. They are a rare, rare kind that you niggers ostracized for telling "da troof" about your piece of shit coon-munity.]]
19:18:33 <ehird_> Magic niggers. Coon-munity.
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19:19:40 <ehird_> "How does a nigger feel knowing that they are the same color as thier shit?"
19:19:40 <ehird_> Guess this guy doesn't like the Zune.
19:25:20 <ehird_> OK, it's transcended hilarity and entered
19:25:21 <ehird_> [["I don't hate niggers. I just think everyone should own one."- My mom]]
19:26:17 <pikhq> That is so very depressing.
19:36:02 <ehird_> http://play.markharpur.com/img/logicfail.JPG
19:39:19 <Sgeo> I don't quite get what's going on
19:39:57 <mycroftiv> on a serious note, i think the resurgence of racism as a fashionable intellectual stance proves that the attempt by well-meaning people to censor and regulate speech had totally perverse consequences
19:40:37 <mycroftiv> the fact is, that if you tell kids that some words are not to be said, that some ideas arent allowed to be considered, you give those ideas power and status and appeal
19:40:48 <ehird_> that's fucking obvious though
19:40:59 <ehird_> but you're not talking to such people :P
19:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird_: That's one hell of a screenshot, especially since you could just link to the page :-P
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19:42:50 <oklopil> i would definitely like to own a slave, i don't care about color though.
19:43:20 <mycroftiv> oklopil: as a practical matter, dont worry, you still can, even though such arrangements arent usually called that any more
19:44:19 <oklopil> i would probably prefer a consenting slave, so that would be a better way to do it anyway
19:44:27 <oklopil> assuming you're talking about paying them
19:44:35 <oklopil> you might also be talking about getting a gf
19:45:14 <mycroftiv> well, i was making a vague reference to several things - the most direct reference being the people who get illegal immigrant servants and then terrorize them into slaver with threats of deportation, etc - i could google for some links, there was a notable case recently
19:45:47 <oklopil> that doesn't sound like something that happens much in finland, then again i wouldn't know if it did.
19:46:35 <mycroftiv> it happens to some extent (i believe) based on most places that have a pool of illegal immigrant labor
19:46:35 <oklopil> and i can't really imagine myself threatening anyone
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19:49:23 <oklopil> actually i'm not sure i'd want a slave, i'd probably just prefer having enough money so i could eat out more often.
19:50:40 <pikhq> oklopil: A "consenting slave" would be either a form of BDSM or an emlpoyee. ;)
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19:51:48 <mycroftiv> actually the idea that money can replace slavery is actually morally sound and is why the liberal secular humanists need to get their heads out of their butts and start thinking intelligently about complex evolutionary dynamic systems rather than mindlessly thinking money == bad
19:52:07 <pikhq> mycroftiv: ... There's people who think money == bad?
19:52:26 <mycroftiv> pikhq: lots of them, and i talk like those people a lot of the time through sloppy language
19:52:43 <pikhq> I always thought that the reasoning was that money implies power, and power is often abused.
19:52:49 <Sgeo> http://pygbot.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pygbot/trunk/pyGBot/Plugins/games/Mafia.py?view=markup#l_799
19:52:59 <pikhq> I guess that would be the reasoning of *sane* liberal secular humanists.
19:53:07 <mycroftiv> yes - but a lot of people are very sloppy about making that connection clear, and the association 'money is bad' happens rather than a real analysis of power and self interest
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20:01:22 <ehird_> mycroftiv: I'm a liberal secular humanist :P
20:01:29 <ehird_> …though I've never said money is bad.
20:03:10 <oklopil> doesn't humanist usually imply secular
20:03:16 <mycroftiv> ehird_: im a liberal secular humanist too! thats why i want us to stop talking foolishness
20:03:44 <mycroftiv> oklopil: often, but not necessarily - for instance, you could think gods exist, but they arent important
20:04:14 <ehird_> mycroftiv: Anyway, I don't think non-capitalist systems should be rejected outright, though I haven't seen one that works yet.
20:04:39 <ehird_> (And there are plenty of capitalist systems that should be thrown out: completely "free" markets, for instance.)
20:05:00 <oklopil> if it doesn't work, someone will start a business that makes it work!
20:05:17 <mycroftiv> ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth
20:05:18 <ehird_> Free market capitalism works because people always buy the better product!
20:05:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:05:56 <mycroftiv> fundamentally, capitalism is totally broken because the information flows that it is based on are horribly incomplete
20:06:11 <oklopil> by information flows you mean what exactly?
20:06:18 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
20:06:24 <mycroftiv> i live in a town with what used to be 4 beautiful lakes - it now has 4 totally disgusting and usable lakes due to fertilizer runoff and pollution
20:06:48 <ehird_> we need a market system based on quantum darwinism
20:06:55 <mycroftiv> this happens because the information about and 'value' represented by the lakes doesnt really interact with the capital economy system - that important information is 'missing'
20:06:58 <ehird_> only perfect transactions get carried towards through the future and the rest are sent to backwater universes
20:07:00 <Pthing> your radical ideas on information technology as Salvation have occurred to others and been found wanting
20:07:05 <oklopil> not wanting to pollute the earth is a bit too conservative for my taste
20:07:17 <ehird_> oklopil: you're crazy <3
20:07:37 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont support IT as salvation at all, in fact I think the use of IT in computerized trading may literally destroy the human race through unintended consequences
20:07:50 <Pthing> <mycroftiv> ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth
20:08:09 <ehird_> Pthing, he never said IT
20:08:12 <oklopil> ehird_: i love how you've stopped preaching to me, and just accepted no sense can enter my head
20:08:19 <ehird_> oklopil: i feel a lot better now :D
20:08:20 <mycroftiv> Pthing: that simply means that we can no longer ignore the fundamental laws of science and the basic physical realities of our condition on earth
20:08:20 <Pthing> well gosh what does he possibly mean
20:08:42 <Pthing> goodness, you mean quantum field politics
20:08:55 <ehird_> mycroftiv vs Pthing; I'll come back in 5 hours
20:09:11 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, not really - why are you trying to ridicule a concept that i certainly havent even stated fully or explicitly?
20:09:27 <Pthing> because it is worth ridiculing every time somebody brings it up
20:09:36 <Pthing> it's a trap a lot of people fall into
20:09:38 <ehird_> mycroftiv: can you just answer me one thing, as a semi-unbiased observer
20:09:41 <mycroftiv> "brings it up" - you are totally projecting onto me beliefs that i dont have
20:09:47 <ehird_> mycroftiv: does your market system depend on quantum darwinism
20:10:10 <Pthing> mycroftiv, it's more a matter of alarm bells
20:10:15 <mycroftiv> ehird_: zurek's model of how quantum mechanical information is transmitted is incredibly important, but i doubt that it has any direct implications for human-level economics, no
20:10:27 <Pthing> "economy based on * scienc*"
20:10:40 <Pthing> actually make it scien*
20:10:57 <oklopil> who cares about irl economies
20:11:02 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont understand the alternative - an economy based on ignorance?
20:11:05 <oklopil> those are so unpure and boring
20:11:08 <Pthing> that's what they all are
20:11:13 <ehird_> an economy based on GHOSTS
20:11:17 <Pthing> Anything else is a religious hope
20:11:33 <ehird_> strange definition of religious
20:11:37 <ehird_> are you using it to mean "things i disagree with"
20:11:38 <Pthing> which is why I consider it more salvation from economics, rather than an actual economic system
20:11:48 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry, i cant tell what you are responding to exactly - somehow are you saying economics is inherently based on ignorance, and trying to improve the quality of information available in our economic system is religion?
20:11:49 <Pthing> No, in a soteriological sense!
20:12:15 <Pthing> Improving the quality, sure, but that doesn't mean destroying it and rebuilding it on scientific bases will achieve that
20:12:21 <Pthing> or, indeed, that it cannot be achieved any other way
20:12:35 <Pthing> except from setting the whole world on fire and bringing in New Rational Economics
20:12:49 <oklopil> i'll go wash the dishes. that's how impure and boring economy talk is! ->
20:13:01 <mycroftiv> Pthing: im just looking at real-world problems - namely the fact that i have been economically impoverished by the loss of value caused by the destruction of the lakes in my town
20:13:19 <Pthing> okay so what's the real-world solution
20:13:25 <mycroftiv> that happened because the value represented by the lakes - a real thing even to the most conservative free marketeer - that value was not integrated into the economic activites that took place
20:13:41 <mycroftiv> human beings dump fertilizer and crap on their lawns, make golf courses - and those create real costs, and loss of wealth
20:13:52 <mycroftiv> im saying we need to get MORE and BETTER information into the system
20:13:53 <Pthing> yes, yes. but what's the real-world solution
20:14:08 <ehird_> Pthing: you seem obsessed with the real world
20:14:08 <mycroftiv> Pthing: set the world on fire and bring in New Rational Economics!
20:14:11 <ehird_> may i point you to this topic
20:14:14 <Pthing> mycroftiv, a good idea!
20:14:43 <mycroftiv> Pthing: anyway, i do have specific ideas for how to bring more information flow into our economic system, but i dunno if anyone really wants any more monologue from me
20:15:25 <mycroftiv> ok, sure :) i 100% agree that this is an incredibly hard topic and that there is no silver bullet, and people who think that the world sucks just because mean people are mean, are clueless
20:15:49 <mycroftiv> however i dont think that means we cant make huge improvements to the mechanisms of decision making and resource allocation
20:16:09 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry man this takes a bit for me to try to establish the concepts
20:16:20 <mycroftiv> if you are expect a 1 sentence solution, i dont have that
20:16:37 <Pthing> well no, the people with one sentence solution are the Worst People
20:16:45 <Pthing> so often it just boils down to like
20:16:52 <Pthing> The Computer Will Tell Everyone What To Do.
20:16:57 <Pthing> which is very sad to see
20:16:57 <ehird_> i've always wanted an oppertunity to say a pretentious comment,
20:16:58 <mycroftiv> however, i do know that the basis of our existence is that we are fragile clumps of carbon compounds existing in a very delicate equilibrium on a single planet, and all the evidence indicates that this is only a 'semistable' equilibrium
20:17:21 <ehird_> everyone will jump to rebut it
20:17:26 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, i am absolutely opposed to the idea of computer-run economies, and i think high speed financial comptuerized trading is highly destructive of a sane economic principles
20:17:27 <ehird_> having successfully trollaxed
20:17:42 <ehird_> "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
20:18:07 <Pthing> well man, that's not really the same thing
20:18:19 <mycroftiv> i think the chain of reasoning that defines 'value' as 'that which a living being needs to sustain its life, and that which it subjectively chooses to pursue' is sensible as a starting place
20:18:21 <ehird_> (mycroftiv: btw you realise that you cannot stop people using computers to do it?)
20:18:31 <Pthing> the computers applied to high finance just make it easier for the bankers to make their pretend dollars
20:18:39 <Pthing> they did it fine plenty of times in the past without them
20:18:55 <mycroftiv> ehird_: i cant stop almost any of the bad things that happen in the world, i can just try to do what i can in the world i am in connection with
20:19:10 <ehird_> Pthing: "pretend" dollars?
20:19:29 <mycroftiv> so anyway - its clear that our most important stock of 'value' is the planet earth we live on - if it goes away, we all get REAL POOR REAL FAST
20:20:01 <ehird_> Pthing: right guess they're like fake dollars
20:20:17 <ehird_> mycroftiv: you are overlooking the possibility of space colonisation!
20:20:27 <mycroftiv> so purely for 100% rational self-interested free-market reasons, it makes sense for people to construct a system of economic values that includes metrics based on the planet earth, and try to put as much information as possible from thsoe realities into the system
20:20:40 <mycroftiv> ehird_: not at all - im just discouraged about its practicality based on the current scientific research and state of the art technologies
20:20:41 <Deewiant> ehird_: How possible do you think it is that it's already happened?
20:20:41 <Pthing> except when it doesn't
20:20:50 <Deewiant> (I.e. it hasn't yet so it doesn't count.)
20:21:14 <mycroftiv> ehird_: there was a time when i thought space travel and exploration meant we didnt need to worry too much about the planet, but a careful study of the facts has convinced me im totally wrong about that
20:21:24 <ehird_> <John> Deewiant! Come quick!
20:21:26 <ehird_> <Deewiant> What is it John?
20:21:33 <ehird_> <John> I've found a way to cure ails.
20:21:40 <ehird_> <Deewiant> That's impossible John, only praying can cure ailments.
20:21:46 <ehird_> <John> It's not! It's worked every time!
20:22:06 <ehird_> <Joe> But what about the prospect of this… "medicine"?
20:22:13 <ehird_> <Deewiant> How possible do you think it is that it's already happened?
20:22:17 <Pthing> this is the worst parable ever
20:22:22 <ehird_> Pthing: My analogies are Deewiant-quality.
20:22:36 <Deewiant> If it does happen 3 days from now, fine
20:22:39 <ehird_> Deewiant: Turn your head and squint your eyes a little.
20:22:42 <Deewiant> But given that it hasn't happened
20:22:48 <Deewiant> And that it's not very likely that it's going to happen
20:22:53 <mycroftiv> Pthing: have i convinced you yet that i am a serious student of economics and social systems and science and i am legitimately trying to address difficult issues, not just spewing ideological dogma/doctrine i read somewhere else?
20:23:06 <ehird_> Deewiant: That's what you think.
20:23:08 <Pthing> mycroftiv, oh sure, the alarm bells are disabled
20:23:08 <Deewiant> It's not worth incorporating it into current plans
20:23:15 <ehird_> Deewiant: I have a fucking space rocket.
20:23:21 <Deewiant> ehird_: Well sure, that's why I asked you about what you think :-P
20:23:42 <Deewiant> ( Deewiant) ehird_: How possible do ***you*** think it is that it's already happened?
20:24:01 <ehird_> Deewiant: Your sentence rivals "Has anyone ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" in confusability. :P
20:24:04 <Deewiant> So if you have a space rocket, then fine
20:24:06 <Pthing> I just disagree that you can really get it into people's self-interest that they need to become greens
20:24:10 <mycroftiv> Pthing: thanks very much. i also think its possible to evolve to an economic system that makes use of more and better information without actually having to blow the world up
20:24:37 <Pthing> Without blowing up a little of the world, anyway
20:24:43 <Deewiant> ehird_: I just wanted to use "possible" since you used "possibility"
20:24:46 <mycroftiv> Pthing: well, its a very deep issue. i mean, if you believe that there is a God who takes care of the world for us and we dont have to, obviously you dont go along with any of this.
20:24:55 <Pthing> No, I do not believe that.
20:25:13 <ehird_> <mycroftiv> If you disagree with me, you're religious.
20:25:18 <Deewiant> So I couldn't say "How likely do you think that it's already happened"
20:25:26 <Deewiant> Which I guess doesn't help much, looking at it now
20:25:30 <mycroftiv> so i usually boil down all economics and politics to 'we have to persuade people to be secular in their decision making at least, and even if people want to cling to religious belief, they cant make it the basis of societal decision making and expect to prosper"
20:26:07 <mycroftiv> well, i see it as the base problem - i think most people - even most 'secular' people - dont actually accept or understand the idea of rationalism and the scientific method
20:26:20 <Pthing> And well they shouldn't.
20:26:29 <mycroftiv> i know a lot of people who 'believe in science' like its a fucking religion, and think something is 100% true 'because science says so' and dont understand about models and revision of theories, etc
20:26:44 <Pthing> Even scientists don't.
20:27:23 <Pthing> Do you sincerely look at the history of science and think "There goes an enlightened portion of the human race, rational and aware of the scientific method"
20:27:40 <mycroftiv> whoa, believing in the scientific method doesnt mean believing scientists are any different than any other human beings
20:27:52 <ehird_> Einstein just threw rocks at a wall and published it.
20:28:07 <Pthing> you say the problem is that most people *aren't* like this
20:28:16 <Pthing> Now this is, to me, quite a religious sentiment.
20:28:24 <Pthing> The idea of producing a code too rigorous for anyone to follow.
20:28:48 <Pthing> It's not moral, so unlike the ethical codes of religion, when holy men fail to follow it, people do not shout at them and call them hypocrites
20:29:09 <Pthing> But it is no more achievable for all that.
20:29:10 <ehird_> <Pthing> The scientific method is impossible to follow because I said so, therefore science = religion.
20:29:16 <mycroftiv> actually , i think the idea of holding your ideas as theories, and trying to test and revise them vs. the evidence - i think that *is* a moral issue
20:29:25 <Pthing> which is what makes it so exciting
20:29:32 <Pthing> You *make* it a moral issue
20:29:45 <Pthing> And if you then, as is quite reasonable, apply it backwards
20:29:51 <Pthing> What does this make *everyone*?
20:30:10 <mycroftiv> i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless
20:30:31 <Pthing> I don't think that's a terribly good comparison
20:30:42 <Pthing> You group "religion" together as though you can even do that
20:31:12 -!- ehird_ has left (?).
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20:31:24 <mycroftiv> people use abstractions and generalizations constantly - theres no such thing as a 'human', theres just an organized lump of carbon doing stuff, the idea of a 'human' is still a generalization/abstraction that isnt '100% true'
20:31:51 <Pthing> I say the problem is twofold
20:32:26 <Pthing> a) Your conception of "religion" is too high-level, especially if you put it into parallel with something you call "the scientific method"
20:32:41 <Pthing> a') especially when you ascribe an *ethical* quality to it
20:32:43 <mycroftiv> im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals
20:32:55 <pikhq> This is one of the most absurdly meta discussions regarding religion I've seen in quite some time.
20:33:26 <Pthing> b) You think that the application of the scientific method *to* human society will come out of the individuals following it.
20:33:48 <Pthing> b') The group of people who have used the scientific method most -- scientists -- show no real sign of this, though
20:34:15 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i think you are wrong in those assertions. 1st, the evidence shows that people DO bring their politics into line with their personal beliefs. need i point at theocratic societies?
20:34:42 <Pthing> What is that supposed to follow, because I'm afraid I don't.
20:34:44 <mycroftiv> and secondly, scientists are no saints, the evidence shows that clearly - but neither do i see many scientists who are active advocates of the most negative and damaging ideas
20:35:07 <Pthing> Sure, but that's the thing.
20:35:24 <Pthing> You could not derive Iran from first principles and the Koran
20:36:04 <mycroftiv> neither do i think first principles or scientific evidence are sufficient to structure a society
20:36:18 <mycroftiv> i do not deny/denigrate the role of free human choice and emotion and 'whatever the hell we want to do'
20:36:57 <Pthing> Also, it's a gross caricature to consider that everyone living in a theocracy is very similar
20:37:05 <mycroftiv> im just saying: currently, the organization of power and the principles our society is based on are still *mostly* religious in origin, i think - partly replaced now with a practical system of capital economy that is useful, but still missing a lot of information flows
20:37:18 <ehird> [20:32] mycroftiv: im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals
20:37:18 <ehird> so much for secular huh
20:37:19 <Pthing> You use the word "religion" again
20:37:41 <Pthing> but I'm still not sure what you mean by it
20:38:05 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./
20:38:15 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:38:21 <mycroftiv> this is a simple example, but it seems pretty clear to me
20:38:30 <mycroftiv> Pthing: yes! the historical record on this is far from obscure
20:38:36 <ehird> mycroftiv is pissed because he can't show off his genitals :D
20:38:47 <Pthing> just illustrates my point
20:38:47 <mycroftiv> ehird: they are beautiful and perfect, and squirrels worship them
20:38:52 <Pthing> that you can't blame "religion"
20:38:55 <ehird> mycroftiv: "Squirrels"
20:39:10 <Pthing> Because here it seems to me you are ascribing all norms you don't care for as being due to "religion"
20:39:42 <mycroftiv> Pthing: um, not at all - but laws that are made to preserve 'morality' are so clearly religious in origin, as a clear matter of historical fact, that im confused what you are claiming
20:39:59 <Pthing> What is clear about it?
20:40:30 <mycroftiv> that a huge amount of law and societal structure created in the past, and still being created today, is motivated by individuals attempting to bring the world into accordance with their religious beliefs
20:40:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: do you accept that someone can be pro-indecent-exposure-laws without being religious?
20:40:37 <ehird> if not, you're an idiot.
20:41:02 <Pthing> mycroftiv, that sentence works exactly the same if you remove the word "religious" from it
20:41:06 <Pthing> so why do you put it in?
20:41:33 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because the people who 'made the laws' put the word in there themselves, and its very important to them!
20:41:53 <mycroftiv> are you denying that there are still millions of people saying "we need to make laws to enforce the bible/koran/whatever' ??
20:42:25 <Pthing> No, I am not denying that, I am just confused at the, well, the single minded focus you put on this.
20:42:25 <mycroftiv> do i need to link to some websites saying "we need to make this illegal/keep this illegal/ because of religious text A/B/C ?'
20:42:29 <Sgeo> "religious beliefs" is a subset of "beliefs"
20:42:59 <Pthing> It is not easy - I'd say impossible, to talk about beliefs that are clearly *not* religious
20:43:07 <Pthing> likewise, purely "religious" ideas
20:43:13 <Pthing> It's just not a good term
20:43:14 <mycroftiv> Pthing: oh i absolutely agree - as a amtter of ontology, i think all knowledge is 'one'
20:43:20 <ehird> i dunno, it's possible to believe that a certain scientific theory will turn out to be correct
20:43:22 <Pthing> why do you *behave* like it isn't?
20:43:24 <mycroftiv> ok, fine, i am perfectly happy to eliminate the term 'religion' from my discoures
20:43:33 <Pthing> okay, so where were we
20:43:34 <ehird> thinking rationally and coming to a conclusion being impossible since there isn't any evidence either way
20:43:38 <Pthing> how would you rephrase:
20:43:39 <mycroftiv> i could state *everything* i just said in equivalent form without focusing on that word or tem at all
20:43:42 <ehird> yet i wouldn't call these hypotheses religious.
20:43:52 <Pthing> <mycroftiv> i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless
20:44:35 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the truth of statements that contradict their own sensory experience, surely the idea...
20:44:51 <ehird> mycroftiv: there's a difference
20:44:56 <Pthing> ehird, i just wanted to make the lines the same length
20:45:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: If you're told how the world works, you don't have to think.
20:45:10 <ehird> Telling them to be scientific doesn't work. They have to collate evidence.
20:45:12 <ehird> Make a conclusion.
20:45:18 <ehird> That's not nearly dogmatic enough to instill in that way.
20:45:57 <mycroftiv> Pthing: if you want i could be picking on 'superstition and the occult' - people who believe in esp, flying saucers, etc - instead of the 'religious' - or i could use lots of other terms
20:46:07 <mycroftiv> im really sorry if something that isnt my central point - religion - seemed like it.
20:46:25 <Pthing> that doesn't sound like a very good argument if you can replace it so glibly
20:46:58 <Pthing> Since if you're trying to show me that your position has *at least parity* with this other position
20:47:00 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i was using 'religion' as an easy antonym to the idea of progressively revising your ideas on the basis of experience
20:47:05 <ehird> It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial.
20:47:30 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry, it takes an encyclopedia to make even the statement 'water is wet' well founded by your standards
20:47:53 <mycroftiv> language is inherently imprecise - im doing the best i can to communicate
20:48:05 <Pthing> If I can persuade a billion people that Our Lady was assumed bodily into heaven, then surely I can persuade them to believe I can fly to Mars and back
20:48:24 <Pthing> even better, persuade them that they *can* fly
20:48:28 <mycroftiv> thats very plausible, whip up a few miracles, sure
20:48:37 <Pthing> No, because miracles don't work like that.
20:48:38 <mycroftiv> and the transcendal meditation people think indeed that they can fly!
20:48:48 <Pthing> What I said is a good argument
20:48:56 <mycroftiv> i dont even understand what you are arguing against now, other than simply trying to contradict anything i say
20:48:59 <Pthing> You might be able to convince that many people they can fly
20:49:03 <Pthing> But will it make them fly?
20:49:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: Pavitra goes to that transcendental meditation "university" thing, iirc.
20:49:14 <ehird> Pthing: have you seen the video?
20:49:17 <ehird> they hop around on their butts
20:49:20 <ehird> while dramatic music plays
20:49:28 <Pthing> You're using "religion" as the Big Thing that Makes Things Possible here
20:49:32 <mycroftiv> Pthing: are you saying that even if you can convince people to 'try' to be rational, they will fail? thats a very good point, if thats what you are making
20:49:57 <Pthing> now, religion, rather than just being a helpful variable for your arguments
20:49:58 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i said im happy to abandont the word 'religion' and switch to the term 'absence of belief in rational methods of observation and extrapolation/deduction'
20:50:25 <Pthing> People who don't... what whole noun phrase
20:50:30 <Pthing> aren't doing it just to be perverse
20:50:31 <ehird> let's all shut up and watch some people hop around on their butts
20:50:32 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923
20:51:24 <ehird> and YOU TOO can fly with a personal mantra for $2,000!
20:51:28 <ehird> contact your local guru!
20:51:31 <Pthing> People *before* you have tried to instill ethical systems into people
20:52:39 <Pthing> One of the things that is grouped into religion is the whole idea of helping people to become better people
20:53:17 <Pthing> Now, actually getting people to sit down, actually sit down and think about what they have done that is bad is only a *part* of it
20:53:26 <Pthing> But all the good religions have some form of it
20:53:30 <ehird> this is pointless gaiz
20:53:41 <mycroftiv> it is one of the tragic confusions that people assume that morality is equivalent and can only be found in a non-rational belief system
20:53:44 <Pthing> This is your greater information deal
20:54:08 <Pthing> And it works, the reason why it comes up everywhere is because it works
20:54:15 <Pthing> but it's not the only thing, boy isn't it
20:54:43 <mycroftiv> Pthing: and as a matter of fact, if i seem like i talk like some kind of 'opponent' of religion, that is simply me trying to situation my discourse somewhere - as it happens, i also have long essays on hindiusm, christianity, and what the ideas of sin and salvation mean
20:54:44 <ehird> shut the fuck up guys!
20:54:48 <Pthing> Think about it, why do these people even have to sit down and think about their sins -- well, it's because they already done them, and the hope is that they won't be as bad in the future
20:54:50 <ehird> you've said like 10 things 50 times
20:55:05 <Pthing> mycroftiv, good, then you're familiar with it
20:55:35 <Pthing> The problem is that it is, as ehird says, this is not a new idea
20:55:42 <ehird> when did i say that
20:55:48 <Pthing> <ehird> you've said like 10 things 50 times
20:55:52 <Pthing> THEREFORE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY NEW
20:55:54 <mycroftiv> Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma
20:56:09 <Pthing> I happen to think that's irrational
20:56:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: so basically you say religion is fucking up society and think rationalism is great
20:56:16 <mycroftiv> and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation
20:56:18 <ehird> then you have your big boatload of personal irrational beliefs
20:56:24 <ehird> with no rational or scientific basis
20:56:30 <ehird> sure do feel like listening to you!
20:56:40 <mycroftiv> nope, you guys are totally misunderstanding
20:56:50 <ehird> [20:55] mycroftiv: Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma
20:56:51 <ehird> [20:56] mycroftiv: and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation
20:56:53 <mycroftiv> the fact that i enjoy religious symbols and practices, and believe they can be 'translated' into meaningful terms
20:57:00 <ehird> dude, you believe in reincarnation
20:57:02 <ehird> that's not symbolism
20:57:05 <ehird> that's being reincarnated.
20:57:06 <mycroftiv> does not mean that i think we should make krishna and vishnu the basis for our economy
20:57:14 <ehird> (which is incidentally amusingly meaningless)
20:57:17 <Pthing> You are, in fact, demonstrating the main reason why it doesn't work
20:57:27 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, i dont compartmentalize at all
20:57:27 <ehird> I like how mycroftiv was all
20:57:33 <ehird> "Ohh people twist politics to their beliefs"
20:57:41 <ehird> "HARE KRISHNA REINCARNATION"
20:58:20 <Pthing> I find the whole idea of rebirth a particularly abhorrent one
20:58:29 <ehird> it doesn't even make any fucking sense
20:58:32 <mycroftiv> there is absolutely no contradiction between enjoying religion as a system of symbols and finding ways to map that symbol system onto reality in meaningful ways
20:58:34 <ehird> do you lose all your memories?
20:58:37 <ehird> then how are you you old self?
20:58:40 <mycroftiv> and believing in rational decision making about public policy
20:58:54 <Pthing> mycroftiv, sure, but then why say "I believe in reincarnation"
20:58:55 <ehird> see, that's a copout
20:58:59 <ehird> being reincarnated
20:59:01 <ehird> to physical reality
20:59:02 <Pthing> instead of "I think reincarnation is a neat idea"
20:59:08 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because im a materialist, and i believe in the law of conservation of energy
20:59:24 <ehird> Deewiant: your mom isn't either but i still use her.
20:59:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: what you just said is akin to the quantum mysticism bullshit
20:59:39 <Pthing> why say "I believe in trying to escape the wheel of karma"
20:59:56 <Pthing> Because that is a tremendously odious idea to me
21:00:04 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because i think that is a shorthand, symbolic way of communicating the idea 'if someone hits me, i might get mad and go hit someone else - but i shouldnt'
21:00:18 <ehird> That's not what karma is.
21:00:34 <ehird> that's the westernised concept of karma
21:00:50 <mycroftiv> Pthing: honestly, you dont understand what im saying, and you arent trying to. thats ok, this is still interesting, but all communication requires a sympathetic effort on the part of the listener
21:00:59 <ehird> http://shii.org/knows/Karma
21:01:22 <Pthing> I think you are making very poor usage of symbolism
21:01:39 <Pthing> You seem to be taking powerful symbols and stripping them of much of it
21:02:00 <ehird> symbolism is where you say things mean vague and unspecified other things so that you can avoid admitting that you mean the actual thing
21:02:18 <Pthing> uncharitable, it's more a matter of association!
21:02:20 -!- Pthing has left (?).
21:02:21 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard.
21:02:24 -!- Pthing has joined.
21:02:33 <ehird> [21:02] mycroftiv: ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard.
21:02:40 <Pthing> the assocations of the idea of "karmic rebirth"
21:02:50 <ehird> "Language is symbolic therefore escaping the wheel of karma is being nice"
21:02:55 <Pthing> than "gee i think we should be nice to people what do you think about that"
21:03:18 <Pthing> People do the same to Jesus, reduce his whole ministry to "gee, just be nice!"
21:03:25 <Pthing> Which is an insult, really
21:03:30 <ehird> Be nice! And stone adulterers.
21:03:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: there is no way to communicate without oversimplifications. i speak too many words as it is, and despite this, it is always easy to pick them apart.
21:03:43 <Pthing> man, you idiot, you're doing it now, ehird
21:03:50 <ehird> Pthing: It was a joke, foo.
21:03:52 <pikhq> ehird: Þou win'ſt þe converſation.
21:04:09 <pikhq> Pthing: 'Tis called “ſarcaſm”.
21:04:11 <mycroftiv> i could work very very hard at trying to add 50,000 footnotes to every sentence i write, trying to show the 'context' in which the symbols should be interpreted, etc etc
21:04:11 <ehird> pikhq: I only win the conversation if you read my message in old english!
21:04:23 <Pthing> mycroftiv, sure, that's what symbols are for
21:04:27 <ehird> Everyone knows that the passages where he tells you to throw rocks at adulterers are just symbolic, anyway.
21:04:28 <Pthing> people implicitly understand the context
21:04:33 <Pthing> if you REMOVE EVERYTHING
21:04:34 <ehird> They're symbolic for throwing *stones* at adulterers.
21:04:53 <Pthing> and just say that you're treating karma as just a way to talk about being nice
21:05:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: If other people don't understand you,
21:05:00 <Pthing> you get a kind of symbolic *vacuum*
21:05:02 <ehird> that is YOUR failing
21:05:06 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, im not, if you want me to be more extensive about karma, lets go for it
21:05:29 <Pthing> Because I see people do this to religion and it makes me RAEG
21:05:35 <mycroftiv> ok, since you guys have seized on this particular issue, lets dig into 'karma' and how to use the word meaningfully in a context where you want to overlap both the religious and the scientific symbol-mappings of the world
21:06:06 <ehird> i'm not in the mood for religious bs atm
21:06:10 <pikhq> Pthing: It's a bit more correct to say Jesus' ministry was "let's be nice to people for a change" than to say the same of karma. At least with Jesus' ministry, that was at least a major principle... ;)
21:06:23 <ehird> pikhq: I must be reading the bible all wrong.
21:06:33 <Pthing> man, ehird's mind isn't mind to make up
21:06:40 <Pthing> and I'm p. sure I want to talk about it
21:06:45 <ehird> Pthing: Everyone who disagrees with you is a hivemind. Trufax.
21:07:05 <Pthing> ehird, i am being polite, the truth is YOUR MIND HASN'T GROWN IN YET
21:07:13 <pikhq> ehird: I said Jesus' ministry specifically, because, well. Doesn't work so well with the *rest* of that book. ;)
21:07:17 <Pthing> you get it on your 18th birthday and that's why the law is as it is
21:07:18 <ehird> I was talking from the perspective of mycroftiv.
21:07:31 <Pthing> AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
21:07:43 <ehird> Pthing: Confirm that you're joking, right?
21:08:13 <Pthing> i'm mostly just stalling for time until mycroftiv says something about karma
21:08:41 <ehird> The stalling's better than the result I think.
21:08:53 <mycroftiv> krsna to arjuna: "not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection. Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature"
21:09:01 <mycroftiv> "thefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment"
21:09:25 <ehird> Someone wanna volunteer to tell me when mycroftiv stops talking about bs?
21:09:35 <mycroftiv> ehird: what would you like me to talk about?
21:09:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:09:43 <ehird> Something along the lines of not that. :P
21:09:54 <mycroftiv> ehird: just ask, and i will speak only of that which you prefer
21:10:20 <ehird> mycroftiv: The molecular structure of the byproducts of salmon scales.
21:10:31 <pikhq> mycroftiv, face it. Your arguments are much weirder than that of Christian apologists.
21:11:09 <mycroftiv> pikhq: honestly, i dont think i even got to make any arguments, all that really happened was the inability to make any statements without semantic conflicts and objections.
21:11:41 <mycroftiv> i dont believe a single 'idea' that i have was successfully communicated, and im sure its my fault for poor communication
21:11:52 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Because the statements you made made negative sense.
21:11:54 <pikhq> Not just no sense, negative sense.
21:11:54 <ehird> I think it'd help if your ideas were less crazy. :P
21:11:56 <mycroftiv> pikhq: as i said, its my fault for poor communication
21:12:24 <ehird> Fairly sure that no communication could make me believe in the westernised form of karma.
21:12:28 <Pthing> is there any hope for a more perfect information flow to Save Our Dollars?
21:12:30 <mycroftiv> ehird: if you recall, my original idea was "it is possible to create an economic system that wont destroy the lakes in the town i live in, and i think for that to happen, people need to use rational decision making mechanisms more."
21:12:46 <Pthing> Because if you can't get across these ideas
21:12:47 <ehird> So did you formulate this "theory" just because you liked those lakes or something?
21:12:48 <mycroftiv> ehird: so i fail to see how that particular proposition is really very crazy or contains 'negative sense', but ah well.
21:12:50 <Pthing> what hope is there for anything else
21:12:53 <ehird> mycroftiv: I did not say negative sense.
21:12:59 <ehird> Please stop equating Pthing, pikhq and me.
21:13:00 <ehird> It is very offensive.
21:13:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: sorry i didnt mean the 'negative sense' comment to be implied as coming from you!
21:13:24 <Deewiant> ehird: You're such an asshole most of the time that you don't get to say "x is very offensive"
21:13:39 <pikhq> mycroftiv: And as you went on, your statements made me less confused about what you meant.
21:13:54 <pikhq> Your initial idea was reasonable, and could be an interesting point of discussion.
21:14:00 <pikhq> It got confusing with explanation.
21:14:32 <mycroftiv> pikhq: i agree, and my sense of that is that it becomes very difficult to keep a consistent meaning of terms when you cant establish a shared set of meanings in the conversation
21:14:46 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Undoubtedly.
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21:15:35 <mycroftiv> i try to 'accept' other peoples definitions, and then make statements using *their* terms - to try to 'translate' from my inner representation to whatever language they are speaking, ideologically. its not easy and it makes me seem very inconsistent, because i want to find common terms to communicate with people using any ideology
21:17:02 <mycroftiv> ive noticed however that the very intelligent people that i most want to communicate with usually react like Pthing - something about what im saying 'smells bad' - too much overlap with cranks and flakes
21:17:38 <Pthing> I wouldn't call a nation of a billion souls with thousands of years of history "cranks and flakes"
21:17:39 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i apologize, it wasnt meant as criticism of you - just of my own communication habits
21:18:11 <mycroftiv> im saying i talk like a damn lunatic, like the fucking TIMECUBE guy
21:18:23 <Pthing> Like I said, you just come across as like
21:18:29 <Pthing> using big symbols for little reasons
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21:19:37 <mycroftiv> Pthing: ive honestly lost track of where we were before getting (from my perspective) totally off-based by my admittedly sloppy use of 'karma' as an example, was there any thread that was interesting and worth picking up?
21:21:40 <oklopil> ehird_: <mycroftiv> If you disagree with me, you're religious. <<< reversing implications is a deadly sin
21:25:48 <mycroftiv> um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered?
21:26:38 <mycroftiv> i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them?
21:27:20 <oklopil> mycroftiv: Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ <<< i'm with you on this one; except i guess i'm more in the direction of sex cult
21:30:29 <mycroftiv> do you think the way to find them is by studying pure math, along the analogy of turing machines yielding the procedural/state machine paradigm, church's lambda calculus leading to functional languages, etc?
21:32:20 <mycroftiv> or is the task/application motivated approach, as in how simula was created and led to OO, more likely to provide us with new toolsets? maybe thats an entirely false dichotomy - i guess i was just throwing it out to stimulate discussion
21:32:23 <oklopil> ehird: It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. <<< when it comes to subjects like this, you could s/#esoteric/a conversation/
21:32:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: dunno. just try shit :P
21:32:53 <mycroftiv> oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing
21:33:24 <mycroftiv> and due to acquiring new evidence of course, not just getting trolled
21:34:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: btw your ideas about a truly persistent OS with unified handling of the data objects etc - i think its absolutely great and would honestly like to help work on such a project, whenever you have it officially rolling
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21:36:33 <oklopil> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 <<< greatest video ever
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21:38:49 <oklopil> ehird: then how are you you old self? <<< same soul?
21:40:00 <ehird> there is no such thing as a soul
21:40:10 <ehird> mycroftiv: i would like to start working on it soon
21:40:27 <ehird> shame that it's only practical to do it on x86_64
21:40:59 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, as a practical matter - despite the desire to support esoteric platforms - theres really nothing so wrong about that
21:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Why only on x86_64?
21:41:16 <ehird> pikhq: it's what i have and it's what everyone else has
21:41:23 <pikhq> (aside from that being the most common platform)
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21:41:43 <pikhq> Ah, so that's about it.
21:41:46 <pikhq> Mmkay; that works.
21:42:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: Anyway, it's wrong because it means I have to code according to it, and it really sucks. :)
21:44:40 <ehird> Still, the best computers are all based on it, so what can you do.
21:45:20 <ehird> I wonder how to handle partitioning in such a system; i.e. "SSD for OS, HD for media". Rich types, I guess.
21:45:40 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, there is another approach available! you could create an OS more along the lines of a self-contained platform that abstracts away from the host os/hardware - like Inferno as an example, or (in a lesser way) something like java or smalltalk itself
21:45:49 <ehird> Although I don't think it's worth bothering supporting multiple media persistence because dammit, there's a 1TB SSD for $2k and an 80GB SSD for $250
21:45:58 <ehird> HDs will be dead long before this is worth using
21:46:27 <ehird> mycroftiv: that kinda sucks for using forth at the low level though
21:46:37 <ehird> since it benefits so much from knowing the hardware wel
21:47:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: i agree, i was just offering it as a possibile option because hardware support is such a pain
21:47:37 <ehird> thankfully things like graphics cards don't really matter for a looooong time
21:47:51 <mycroftiv> you probably know a lot of the plan9 stuff has gone/is going in the direction of trying to free ride on the linux kernel to manage the hardware, and tons of developmnet oses take a similar strategy
21:47:57 <ehird> would love to build it on openfirmware or something
21:48:07 <ehird> but afaik the OLPC XO-1 is the only x86 with openfirmware
21:48:14 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah i dislike that
21:48:25 <ehird> you take away one of plan 9's main advantage
21:48:28 <oklopil> ehird: uhh i didn't <<< mycroftiv said a religious guy probably wouldn't agree, maybe you weren't responding to that in particular, or maybe you considered context as well, i just like to see reversed implications and be annoyed by them.
21:48:29 <ehird> the unified system architecture
21:49:02 <mycroftiv> i sorta dislike it but the fact is that human time and energy and resources are limited, and you want to put your time where it does the most good - and if you dont have a large team of devs with hardware skills, hardware can just be a real barrier
21:50:08 <ehird> But if I wanted to compromise, I'd build it on unix
21:50:13 <ehird> Dammit, I should stop making errors.
21:50:17 <oklopil> mycroftiv: um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? <<< yes.
21:50:53 <oklopil> mycroftiv: i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? <<< i have tons of vague ideas i can't explain!
21:51:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: but really, building this on top of unix would result in… wait for it… Squeak.
21:51:26 <ehird> and you do NOT want anything to result in squeak
21:51:27 <mycroftiv> oklopil: any referent for the ideas, or what existing stuff acts to 'trigger' them, make you say 'what if...'
21:52:19 <ehird> mycroftiv: For context, note that oklopil made a language based on lists of negative nesting (<> is 0, <<a>> is 1, etc) and NOPs.
21:52:20 <mycroftiv> ehird: makes sense, do you have a plan to get started? target a VM specification, or a particular given 'generic' hardware spec?
21:52:47 <ehird> Also, the regular thing: support the standard x86_64/BIOS stuff, because differing drivers won't be neccessary until much later.
21:54:11 <oklopil> mycroftiv: oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing <<< i'm not saying you can't change your mind about things due to conversations, yes, but what i said isn't even that much of an oversimplication, people simply suck at having conversations ime.
21:55:03 <oklopil> people are often great at talking though, that's why stuff like books and lectures work, because people are usually actually listening, unlike when having conversations. then again i am a simplificator, and a crazy person, so what do i know.
21:55:22 <mycroftiv> oklopil: sure, i really do try to 'swear off' the debates about politics/religion/ethics and keep my time and energy focused on translating my ideas into 'real things' like software and music and essays
21:55:54 <mycroftiv> obviously though the resolution to 'not get dragged into trying to explain my private mapping of the universe' is something i constantly fail though
21:56:18 <ehird> it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory.
21:56:24 <oklopil> ehird: there is no such thing as a soul <<< believing in the soul is, ime, one of the simplest religious beliefs you can obtain, because of all the consciousness. but i was mostly joking.
21:56:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: you have a crazy unifying theory, you are just smart and you keep it limited to a single domain you are expert in
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21:58:26 <ehird> oklopil: yeah but i was rebutting it as a religious belief
21:58:31 <ehird> justifying it with another isn't terribly convincing
21:58:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm really not certain I'd call myself an expert.
21:59:07 <ehird> my last OS failed because i couldn't fuckin' get interrupts set up
21:59:35 <oklopil> ehird: it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. <<< my crazy unifying theory is mostly ignoring the problem.
21:59:38 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i honestly have no way at this point of really assessing your expertise, but im happy to give you the benefit of the doubt - and based on the satement you just said 'my last os failed' - that certainly qualities as 'expert' given that most people dont have a 'last os'
21:59:53 <ehird> mycroftiv: it's all relative, though
22:00:05 <ehird> making some code that can be booted by grub isn't exactly an odd thing for this channel
22:00:59 <oklopil> a friend of mine just finished writing the network card drivers for his os
22:01:12 <ehird> grub is incidentally not allowed in my os
22:01:13 <mycroftiv> ehird: yes, but the point i was making wasnt about how great you are, but just that you certainly have at least the expertise required for your ideas (your 'crazy theory' of how an os should work) to be meaningful
22:01:14 <oklopil> same guy couldn't solve the int(n/m) problem, grrr
22:01:29 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'd call that knowledge, not expertise
22:01:36 <ehird> i generally reserve that for... well... experts
22:01:49 <mycroftiv> i can tell this is a damn language channel, you guys are fucking crazy for precise definitions\
22:02:43 <mycroftiv> i cant string 5 words together in a sequence without subjecting at least one of them to a highly metaphorical and nonstandard use
22:03:10 <oklopil> mycroftiv: some of the ideas i can explain are my graph definition language (which is more of a useless DSL), and Ef, which was based on taking fixed points of every function
22:03:11 <ehird> that's not my problem :P
22:03:53 <oklopil> the graph thing, graphica, is my personal favorite; but Ef is, in some sense, a completely new paradigm
22:04:13 <mycroftiv> oklopil: those both sound very interesting, im not sure how you build a language from 'fixed points of every function' - but thats my ignorance, id love to learn, got any references to check out?
22:04:30 <ehird> mycroftiv: don't worry, it's not your ignorance
22:04:40 <ehird> nobody understands oklopil's languages for the first few days
22:04:47 <oklopil> mycroftiv: the basic idea is pattern matching on problems, then imperatively changing them.
22:04:54 <oklopil> imperatively as in statefully
22:05:14 <ehird> it's nothing like that fwiw
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22:06:49 <oklopil> ehird: what's not what? :P
22:07:35 <oklopil> this is the canonical sort, sort={x:_;y:_;?x<?y&x>y=>[x y]=[y x]}; not sure what sort that is exactly, you find pairs that should be the other way around, and swap them
22:08:01 <pikhq> That looks like bubblesort.
22:08:23 <mycroftiv> ok, i see whats going on with statement, looks neat
22:08:23 <oklopil> yeah, except it's nondeterministic
22:08:39 <oklopil> a sensible compilation would be bubblesort, or something along those lines
22:09:00 <oklopil> mycroftiv: basically a normal form of executing that on a list is taken
22:09:05 <pikhq> It could also quite reasonably become a sorting network. :P
22:09:21 <oklopil> pikhq: yes, very parallelizable!
22:09:33 <oklopil> wait sorting network right
22:09:40 <oklopil> kinda misunderstood you there.
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22:10:48 <pikhq> Accidentally upside-down ?
22:11:20 <oklopil> mycroftiv: [x y]=[y x] has to do with ef's completely insane value/reference semantics, which have nothing to do with the fixed point and pattern matching stuff
22:11:35 <oklopil> i tend to reinvent everything from scratch when i make a new language
22:12:00 <oklopil> except a few things i consider fundamental enough to use without rethinking, like lists
22:12:36 <ehird> oklopil: replace lists with sorting networks that sort things to that list's structure
22:12:42 <ehird> and encode the values in this structure
22:14:06 <oklopil> i'm almost incompletely not unsure what you mean
22:14:54 <ehird> oklopil: basically, the idea is that everything is a sorting network
22:15:01 <ehird> in this case, if we have a list 1:2:3:[]
22:15:09 <ehird> then we encode the 1 in the way it resorts
22:15:18 <ehird> and then encode 2:3:[], "wrapping" each element of its encoding
22:15:19 <ehird> to show that it's the tail
22:15:25 <ehird> recursively, then using a sentinel sorting pattern for []
22:15:33 <ehird> and thus, to operate on lists we make special lists ourselves for them
22:15:36 <ehird> and run it on them
22:15:42 <ehird> and check the results
22:15:48 <ehird> so, everything's a sorting network that sorts other sorting networks
22:16:36 <oklopil> anyway mycroftiv there's a lot of unused esolang material in mathematics already, many fun models of computation haven't really gotten famous enough to have been esolangified.
22:16:57 <mycroftiv> if theres a lot of available formalisms that dont have languages matches to them
22:17:39 <oklopil> i don't know of that many, but this is what an esolang professor told me at uni
22:18:05 <oklopil> for instance matrix multiplication is tc
22:18:53 <oklopil> well he does computation model stuff, so yeah :P
22:19:25 <oklopil> ehird: basically you can do tm's by walking up and down a real number's digits
22:19:34 <ehird> i thought you hated reals
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22:20:16 <oklopil> also he had some results about reversibility of certain ca's
22:20:35 <oklopil> and i was like can i have your autograph
22:20:41 <ehird> oklopil: you said they're too numbery
22:20:43 <oklopil> well not out loud but anyway
22:20:59 <oklopil> oh, well yeah i hate *instances* of real numbers :P
22:21:15 <oklopil> i enjoy the structure of the field though.
22:22:55 <oklopil> how is that a lolling matter
22:23:12 <oklopil> it's a pretty fucking sexy field
22:24:03 <ehird> hating instances of it
22:24:10 <ehird> anyway as we all know reals are continued fractions.
22:24:17 <ehird> anything else is satan
22:24:28 <mycroftiv> since we are speaking about the real numbers - transfinite math, do we have any computer languages currently that can work correctly with the transfinite ordinals and other stuff like that from set theory?
22:25:55 <pikhq> mycroftiv: That depends: are the operations you want on them computable?
22:26:11 <pikhq> If so, then we have plenty. The usage of them may just be very hard.
22:27:17 <mycroftiv> pikhq: questions about the computability of operations on infinite sets are sadly over my head, im at the level of understanding the continuum hypothesis and the diagonal slash argument and the concept of a power set and all that, but my curiousity stems largely from wishing there was computer software i could work with that would teach me more
22:27:55 <pikhq> Probably Mathematica.
22:28:12 <oklopil> by the diagonal slash arg do you mean the proof that |reals| > |ints|
22:28:19 <mycroftiv> wish i had access to that software, ever. thats what drove me to become a free software user and developer
22:28:47 <mycroftiv> oklopil: that is one of the most famous applications of it, but of course 'diagonal' type arguments show up everywhere, godel as well for instance, but i suspect you know all this better than i do
22:31:00 <oklopil> i just know one diagonalization argument
22:31:44 <mycroftiv> oklopil: yeah, the reals > ints is probably the most famous one, and the direct reference i was referring to.
22:32:13 <mycroftiv> but the form of that argument is amazingly powerful and has become very much a 'standard tool' of proof in a lot of areas
22:33:17 <oklopil> probably, i really don't know much about anything but basic algebra, and cs-related
22:34:04 <oklopil> anyway diagonalization is a pretty simple proof by contradiction
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22:34:19 <oklopil> what's interesting about power sets exactly?
22:34:35 <mycroftiv> well, that is how the chain of transfinite numbers is generated
22:35:18 <oklopil> i just don't think it's a good starting place for expanding your mathematical brain
22:36:13 <mycroftiv> well, i wouldnt call it a starting place, ive been studying math for a long time now even though im not particularly good at it really
22:36:27 <mycroftiv> but since actually understanding all the math in modern physics is important to me, i keep working at it
22:36:57 <mycroftiv> hmm, i think physics is 100% as interesting as the universe itself ;D
22:37:04 <mycroftiv> sex is interesting because physics FEELS GOOD
22:37:11 <oklopil> the universe is pretty boring :P
22:37:48 <oklopil> i'm more interested in pure, simplified universes
22:38:37 <mycroftiv> oklopil: well, for all we know, at the lowest level, our universe might a rule 110 machine...we dont know what the little elves turning the cranks are up to in that regard quite yet
22:38:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: Nice try, Wolfram.
22:39:37 <mycroftiv> ehird: wolfram didnt invent those ideas, people have been speculating that the universe is just a computation since newton
22:40:20 <mycroftiv> *shrug* simple and cool example, back when i was talking about this stuff in the late 80s, i would have said 'the universe is like the mandelbrot set'
22:41:58 <oklopil> the mandelbrot set is much less discrete computation -y
22:42:04 <ehird> i get the impression that you're like 40
22:42:26 <oklopil> ehird: you didn't get that impression before thsi?
22:42:32 <ehird> oklopil: well i did it was just forming
22:42:39 <mycroftiv> oklopil: yes, actually the question of discrete vs fractal/continuous is really important when trying to make a model that is more meaningful than just metaphor
22:42:45 <mycroftiv> (which btw i dont think anyone has actually done!)
22:42:59 <ehird> i guess when intelligence's brain cells die they excrete crazy :D
22:43:39 <mycroftiv> ehird: i used to be much crazier, i decided quite awhile ago i had to try to work much more within the pure science/math domain to get anywhere
22:43:52 <ehird> uhh i am GLAD you didn't come here then
22:44:03 <ehird> cuz you're pushing new boundaries in #esoteric craziness :P
22:44:57 <oklopil> i don't find him all that crazy, maybe i'm too crazy to notice it
22:45:06 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i still havent managed to syncrhonize myself with the prevailing discourse, i was early figuring the 'lets slag on religion thing' was an easy way of expressing certain ideas, but that was a mistake, i got called on it rightly
22:45:45 <mycroftiv> so then i end up trying to prove that im not a hater-of-religion, which ends up making me seem very incosistent suddenly - even though i think religious symbolism and ritual is orthogonal to public economic policy, which i thought was teh topic
22:45:47 <ehird> i wasn't really interested in the anti-religion stuff because i pretty much exhausted all the realisations with regards to it like a year ago
22:46:10 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah, that was my mistake in how i was situating my statements - i thought the kids today were all into that dawkins-hitchens perspective
22:46:23 <ehird> hitchens is kind of a dick.
22:46:28 <ehird> dawkin's ok though.
22:46:35 <ehird> *dawkins', whatever
22:46:44 <ehird> but i don't think there's many kids in here really
22:46:58 <mycroftiv> well, if you actually want to *convince* people, i think they are just preaching to the choir and alienating the people they are trying to persuade, actually
22:47:10 <mycroftiv> ehird: i meant that purely as a joke use of language
22:47:32 <ehird> I've been an atheist since like 9 and an agnostic since forever
22:47:34 <oklopil> also there are tons of kids here
22:47:38 <ehird> although really, I basically just never considered that god might exist
22:47:45 <ehird> i wasn't ever exposed to the concept, really
22:47:56 <ehird> but I still found The God Delusion a good book
22:48:06 <ehird> it helped explain to me why religion was so prevalent
22:48:14 <ehird> dawkins has plenty of non-anti-religion books anyway
22:48:14 <mycroftiv> ehird: one of the reasons i can be frustrating to communicate with is that i believe language is a map and i try to figure out what map the person i am talking to is using, and then speak using its landmarks
22:48:34 <ehird> Unweaving the Rainbow is still basically anti-supersitition, but it's mainly about how beauty can come out of analysis and how coincidences really do exist
22:48:54 <ehird> mycroftiv: you can't subvert biases by using different words unless you're really effective at it imo
22:49:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i produce the opposite results sometimes, because of the inconsistency issue and trying to communicate with multiple people at once
22:50:42 <mycroftiv> if im trying to talk to someone who believes in stuff like esp and ufos and that i think is 'confused', i can sound like im failing to actually maintain my beliefs because im not contradicting ideas that i think are 'confused' (== wrong)
22:50:50 <ehird> i don't argue with cranks
22:51:09 <mycroftiv> i work very, very hard on not being one
22:51:17 <mycroftiv> thats why hard science and math are where i try to situate myself now
22:51:30 <ehird> quantum darwinism man :)
22:51:34 <ehird> (yeah yeah I know)
22:51:39 <ehird> (I just love hatin' on that name)
22:52:14 <mycroftiv> ehird: ...yeah it makes me grit my teeth too, the thing is zurek keeps trying to come up with a name since he realizes people just dont understand the significance, even if they agree with his work.
22:52:24 <mycroftiv> his old term was 'the existential interpretation' which meant nothing
22:52:40 <ehird> I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important
22:52:45 <mycroftiv> 'decoherence' is still the most used term for the basics of his approach, but hes advanced a long way past the simple...
22:53:15 <ehird> It's the more "correct"/"possible" universes traveling forwards in the dimension of time, right?
22:53:17 <mycroftiv> ehird: that was my guess as to the psychology of his changing his terminology, please dont confuse my random bs with what the man actually says
22:53:19 <ehird> and the less suitable ones not being able to
22:53:37 <coppro> if you want to see a wacky theory, see my Oracularity that got digested (no, it's not a serious theory)
22:53:49 <mycroftiv> ehird: its specifically based on the actual math of the quantum equations that 'everyone' agrees with, and actually studying how information is transmitted between systems through time.
22:53:51 <ehird> I'd call it something like "spatial decoherence" since it's moving forwards in time to get a chance at space. It's not a terribly meaningful name, but it sounds okay.
22:54:24 <mycroftiv> so the idea is that 'classical' type information, where the ball bounces off the wall, is far more likely to sucessfully transmit than the information that matches the ball going through the wall
22:54:34 <mycroftiv> (im oversimplifying deliberately to the pop sci level)
22:54:41 <mycroftiv> (not because i think you need it, just to speak quickly)
22:54:41 <ehird> pop sci level is a good way to get a good name though
22:55:16 <ehird> From what you're saying I basically gather that it's: more classically probable information has a better chance of moving forwards in time to affect space
22:55:27 <ehird> and the less classical outcomes will lag behind, so to speak
22:55:31 <ehird> again, wildly analogising
22:55:37 <ehird> from that I'd still call it spacial decoherence
22:55:49 <mycroftiv> almost exactly correct - in your statement, you should substitute 'other quantum systems' though for the word 'space'
22:55:51 <oklopil> ehird: I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important <<< iirc the cross product was considered like the final salvation by its inventor
22:56:10 <ehird> the cross product isn't exactly a theory :P
22:56:28 <oklopil> well no, that was more of a random piece of funny information.
22:56:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: yes but that gives quantum decoherence.
22:56:45 <mycroftiv> i think zurek believes (correctly) that his work has mostly resolved the 'quantum measurement problem' and paradoxes like schrodinger's cat. his work is real science, its hard math, it can be tested by experiment also. so his opinion i dont think is relevant to evaluating it.
22:56:50 <ehird> which is taken, I gather :D
22:56:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: zurek's work IS quantum decoherence!@
22:57:05 <mycroftiv> he is one of the guys who is responsible for a huge amount of that work!
22:57:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: I don't accept your claim that quantum darwinism objectively true
22:57:22 <ehird> and plenty of people accept decoherence but don't, afaik, subscribe to this interpretation
22:57:28 <mycroftiv> ehird: it can be objectively tested and verified with standard mathematical analysis and experimentation
22:57:29 <ehird> so it only makes sense to separate them
22:57:32 <ehird> mycroftiv: so you keep saying
22:57:44 <ehird> people disagree with you, so we don't simply call it "the truth"
22:57:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: yes, "QD" is the name zurek gives to his more recent work that extends the decoherent paradigm
22:58:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: sorry if i was seeming to state things non-carefully, let me translate the language:
22:59:16 <mycroftiv> "within the current dominant paradigm casually referred to as western science, the principles of quantum mechanics are widely accepted. zurek is a mainstream practitioner who's work is mostly done via pure mathematical manipulation, so his results are widely accepted as valid. it is only a model, and more study and data are needed, because it is a relatively new model."
22:59:35 <mycroftiv> did all of that make it to channel or was it too long?
23:00:10 <mycroftiv> i personally think that a lot of the information in a careful statement like that can 'go without saying' between people who mutually understand the principles of the scientific method
23:00:48 <mycroftiv> so i apologize if i seem to make statements that should be made carefully about models, predictions, and 'best current explanation of data' - and state them in the language of fact, etc.
23:01:07 <ehird> i've never heard of quantum darwinism being accepted, though
23:01:16 <ehird> its wikipedia article is small and you're the first i've heard of it
23:01:21 <ehird> and all your links are from arxiv
23:01:27 <ehird> it doesn't seem like something every physicist accepts
23:01:38 <ehird> from what i've seen most of them go for copenhagen
23:02:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i dunno, i think you are mistaken on this. i think if you actually talked to the mainstream university tenured scientists who are expert on this issue, they would have the highest praise for zurek's work, and say that he has made amazing factual contributions to our understanding
23:03:12 <ehird> i'm just skeptical
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23:03:27 <mycroftiv> his papers are widely cited, and the people who are actually spending tons of money on quantum computing are basing their engineering efforts on the theorems he has been part of proving
23:04:59 <ehird> the d-wave blog mostly makes reference to MWI
23:05:06 <ehird> at least what i've read
23:05:14 <ehird> and d-wave seem to be the main name in actually making quantum computers
23:05:51 <mycroftiv> the work of zurek's that is directly related to quantum computing is not QD, its his work on quantum computation/informatino theory and entropy etc
23:06:24 <ehird> D-Wave has been heavily criticized by some scientists in the quantum computing field. According to Scott Aaronson, a Computer Science professor at MIT who specializes in the theory of quantum computing, D-Wave's demonstration did not prove anything about the workings of the computer. He claimed a useful quantum computer would require a huge breakthrough in physics, which has not been published or shared with the physics community.[1] Dr. Aaronson has mainta
23:06:25 <mycroftiv> also, the fact i link stuff from arxiv doesnt mean that those arent the preprints of papers that were published in major journals with peer review
23:06:53 <ehird> Umesh Vazirani, a professor at UC Berkeley and one of the founders of quantum complexity theory, made the following criticism:[2]
23:06:53 <ehird> "Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell ph
23:06:54 <ehird> Wim van Dam, a professor at UC Santa Barbara, summarized the current scientific community consensus in the journal Nature:[12]
23:06:55 <ehird> "At the moment it is impossible to say if D-Wave's quantum computer is intrinsically equivalent to a classical computer or not. So until more is known about their error rates, caveat emptor is the least one can say."
23:07:25 <mycroftiv> yeah i was gonna question the relevance of the 'd-wave blog' for anything, but since i havent read it, i dont have an opinion :)
23:07:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: d-wave seemed reputable enough to me
23:07:54 <ehird> i saw a lot of sane-seeming pepole say "yay" about it
23:07:58 <ehird> they've got in newspapers
23:08:00 <mycroftiv> i said i have zero opinion! ive never read i! :)
23:08:05 <ehird> and the blog seemed sincere and honest
23:08:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah just saying
23:08:17 <ehird> i wasn't reading some random kid's blog about his supposedly quantum computers :P
23:08:37 <Slereah_> It's made of particles and shit
23:09:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: anyway, copenhagen isnt an explanation of how the classical world results from the quantum - its a model that says 'we dont have to worry about it' - every physicist agrees that if you accept quantum theory as real, you have to explain ultimately (in ways copenhagen doesnt) the entire system of experimenter/appartus/subject as quantum
23:09:46 <mycroftiv> and the mainstream model of that currently is definitely the decoherent paradigm
23:10:05 <mycroftiv> of which zurek has been a leading researcher, and QD represents the 'state of the art' of his research on this topic
23:10:27 <mycroftiv> if quantum mechanics isnt 'really fundamental' we can obviously throw it right out
23:10:47 <mycroftiv> or if further experiments on the transition between the quantum and the classical scale contradict its predictions
23:13:28 <mycroftiv> QD is nothing more than a certain model that seems to do well at showing that we dont actually need 'new physics' to explain the appearance of the 'classical world' - it actually *does* emerge properly, just from the current known quantum equations
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23:15:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: i think the fact that its not famous or well known yet (or may ever be) is because it isnt challenging or overturning anything - its basically saying that the current equations we have work even better than we had thought! and for working physicists the 'measurement problem' has never been a really huge concern anyway, since experiments DO work as a practical matter
23:17:28 <mycroftiv> a lot of the value of zurek's work is actually that it powerfully *rebuts* people who want to find some kind of 'magic' in quantum theory they can use to make telepathy or other such pseudoscience plausible
23:19:50 <mycroftiv> his work strongly suggests that all of the 'weird' behaviors of quantum mechanics are unlikely to create any macro-scale 'loopholes' that we can exploit.
23:24:04 <mycroftiv> speaking purely for myself, from my reading of zurek's work, i think it actually implies that we arent likely to get a good quantum computer anytime soon, because the orthogonal basis states it depends on are just so hard to maintain
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23:41:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: well there are quantum computers, just near-0k ones
23:41:52 <ehird> and i don't mean price :D
23:42:04 <mycroftiv> yeah, its the scaling up to many qubits thats hard
23:42:05 <ehird> but a few qubits aren't exactly useful
23:42:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: it sort of depresses me that quantum physics DOESN'T let us do freaky stuff :)
23:42:31 <mycroftiv> and thats where the 'nature doesnt like to maintain superpositions' problem kicks in - i have a theory that theres probably a catch 22 at work
23:43:16 <mycroftiv> the amount of energy required to create the conditions to maintain the necessary number of qubits could probably do 'just as much' computation on their own if pumped into old fashioned chips rather than maintaining a coherent apparatus for the quantum superpositions
23:43:37 <mycroftiv> that might turn out to be a kind of implication of the 2nd law
23:44:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i remember reading pop sci stuff about 'tachyons that go back in time' and being very disappointed i couldnt buy a tachyon telephone and that they didnt actually exist anyway
23:46:11 <ehird> my personal pet physics-wish is that we can send information across everett branches
23:46:24 <ehird> = inter-universe communication
23:47:42 <ehird> there's not really any evidence or theories at all on that one
23:48:07 <ehird> of course quantum darwinism probably says all the fun universe's genes will have gone extinct :D
23:49:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: amirite
23:50:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: its hard to say...if you could create an environment (such as quantum computing tries to) where stuff wasnt constantly transmitting information back and forth, then maybe the evolution of the state would be different
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23:51:19 <ehird> cross-everett-branch communication only works in the purest form of MWI
23:51:25 <ehird> i.e., each quantum event truly does split the universe in two
23:51:34 <ehird> and there are literal, existing, multiple universes
23:52:58 <mycroftiv> id have to look at some mathematics, but how does transmitting information between everett branches avoid violations of the laws of thermodynamics?
23:53:31 <ehird> as far as i know it doesn't.
23:53:44 <ehird> entropy never decreasing is a statistical law anyway isn't it
23:53:50 <ehird> i.e. the probabability of entropy decreasing is 0
23:53:55 <ehird> doesn't mean it's impossible
23:54:31 <mycroftiv> ehird: aha! well, this is very interesting...this goes to the heart of the issues - because a lot of zurek's work is devoted to showing that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the direct consequence of the conservation laws that apply to quantum interactions
23:54:58 <ehird> but zurek's work doesn't even have literal multiple universes as i understand it
23:55:06 <ehird> so we have to ignore it to even consider this communication
23:55:40 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i think thats debatable, because 'multiple universes' is mostly a semantic/philosophical level interpretation of what sets of equations 'mean' more than a mathematical statement itself in this case
23:56:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: you could say in many ways that zurek's work is 'all about' studying the multiple universes and exactly how/if they can interact perhaps
23:56:13 <mycroftiv> i know that zurek himself places his work in the tradition of that school of interpretation
23:56:26 <ehird> it would be cool, anyway
23:56:26 <mycroftiv> (working from the MWI idea of 'taking the equations seriously and literally')
23:56:31 <ehird> especially if it violates thermodynamics
23:56:36 <ehird> i want my extra energy, bitch
23:57:26 <ehird> in fact i'd find it incredibly depressing if entropy can truly never decrease
23:57:39 <ehird> i kind of like the universe and life and such.
23:57:48 <ehird> Slereah_: Yes, it just has probability 0, etc, se ↑↑↑
23:58:02 <ehird> Slereah_: Anyway, what interpretation do you subscribe to? I'm sure I asked before.
23:58:14 <Slereah_> ehird : I'm an instrumentalist
23:58:25 <Slereah_> That is, I consider physics as a tool
23:58:40 <ehird> Slereah_: That's not a quantum interpretation :P
23:58:40 <Slereah_> So I don't care too much about the metaphysical truth behind
23:58:50 <ehird> I mean Copenhagen/MWI/blah balh blah.
23:58:52 <Slereah_> If there's a way to differentiate the two, why not
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23:59:27 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
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23:59:43 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
23:59:43 <ehird> 23:59] mycroftiv: Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] ehird: Tooooo late
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] mycroftiv: bah!
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] ehird: He'll be back.
23:59:53 <ehird> (You guys all understand regexps, right? :P)
00:00:24 <mycroftiv> of course, i practically speak (*$%|*(#$&*/#*($&\/\#(*$ as my native language
00:01:48 <ehird> mycroftiv: Oh so witty
00:01:52 <ehird> Perl is line noise amirite
00:02:12 <mycroftiv> you know the defintion of unix, right? "40 defintions of regexp living under one roof"
00:02:44 <ehird> never understood why there wasn't a standard regex toolset for unix
00:02:54 <ehird> it's the obvious thing to do from the start
00:03:03 <mycroftiv> same reason we have more than one programming language in the world and more than one use of symbols in computers in general
00:03:13 <mycroftiv> people like to make their own thing
00:03:35 <ehird> mycroftiv: but Ken Thompson did it!
00:03:45 <ehird> unix philosophy! they actually used it those days
00:03:47 <ehird> so why not for regexp?
00:04:13 <ehird> I'm very much in favour of the operating system providing a whole lot though
00:04:34 <ehird> (Arguably bloat, but I don't separate the operating system and the programs on top, so.)
00:04:42 <mycroftiv> i think the distinction between OS and software is something we should get beyond anyway
00:04:57 <ehird> my OS is object-based
00:05:05 <mycroftiv> i fight with plan9 people about this a lot, because i think they dont even understand their own os or its concepts really
00:05:14 <ehird> intelligent objects with methods to manipulate and transform them, plus extra methods that make a visualisation of that object and provide a UI to manipulate it
00:05:27 <ehird> you'd be hard-pressed to sell any "software" for it
00:05:38 <ehird> "Adobe bitmap image editing components 7.0!"
00:07:14 <mycroftiv> hmm, how do your provide visualization and UI for objects in a 'universal' way? how do you avoid having specific software tools to work with specific types of objects?
00:07:53 <oklopil> maybe not so much avoid as discourage
00:08:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: because you don't give a tool object the object to work on
00:08:26 <ehird> you ask the object for an interface
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00:08:38 <ehird> the emphasis is very much on communicating with smart objects
00:08:53 <ehird> and tools don't contain their behaviour, really
00:08:59 <ehird> the interface just asks the object directly
00:09:02 <ehird> and you add stuff to the object
00:09:04 <ehird> sure, you CAN do a tool
00:09:06 <ehird> but it'd be awkward
00:09:07 <mycroftiv> oh, well, in that case the mapping simply places the traditional software/UI component inside the object, sure
00:09:12 <ehird> and be really hard to start etc
00:09:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: well, there are extensible interfaces ofc
00:09:43 <ehird> but at the end of it, you're clicking something that modifies an object it's showing, yes.
00:09:49 <mycroftiv> so what is paradigm for 'shifting' data as content between different interfaces?
00:09:56 <ehird> but the workflow differs
00:10:03 <ehird> mycroftiv: well, when you ask the object for an interface
00:10:07 <ehird> it gives you an appropriate interface object
00:10:12 <ehird> and that interface obviously contains the object
00:10:17 <ehird> just grab the object from the interface
00:10:20 <ehird> and ask it for another interface
00:10:24 <ehird> non-destructive updates
00:10:27 <ehird> if you flip an image in a UI
00:10:28 <mycroftiv> can it attach to and make use of interface components/tools located in other objects?
00:10:29 <ehird> it doesn't change the image
00:10:32 <ehird> it just updates the image in the interface
00:10:42 <ehird> and manipulate that flipped image
00:10:45 <ehird> link the two images together
00:10:49 <ehird> and manipulate the image as you work
00:11:01 <ehird> have an inverted image of another interface's image
00:11:03 <ehird> scale the image in the latter
00:11:07 <ehird> and it updates the inverted image
00:12:33 <mycroftiv> yeah, im thinking about how to translate various tasks from the traditional model to this model
00:13:00 <ehird> i don't really have specific things fleshed out
00:13:06 <ehird> but the general model seems sound
00:13:18 <ehird> you have to be careful about where you place your object in the abstraction layer tho
00:13:25 <mycroftiv> so - old model - i have (your favorite!) a text file - i can bring the data from that text file into a 'word processor' app to do various font/formatting stuff, or i can bring that text data into my 'rpg game creator' environment to use as a message on the wall the player can read
00:13:27 <ehird> e.g. (webPage browser) isn't acceptable
00:13:32 <ehird> because you have cookies and the like
00:13:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: ok, lemme give that a shot
00:13:53 <mycroftiv> now, in the new model - the base object of the content can provide me a 'word processor like interface' by making use of that module, right?
00:14:17 <ehird> You bring up your text object, which brings up the default interface, which has the ability to switch to other interfaces.
00:14:26 <ehird> First you might convert it to rich text, say.
00:14:40 <ehird> You select your desired interface, and do font/formatting stuff like usual.
00:14:54 <ehird> PlainText>>awesomeWordProcessorInterface
00:14:59 <ehird> with the source being like
00:15:14 <ehird> self interfaceUsing: [ AwesomeWordProcessor new with: self ]
00:15:25 <ehird> so, you have that rich text
00:15:32 <ehird> and you extract the object from it
00:15:35 <mycroftiv> so if i want to 'connect' the interface of the basically textual object to the object that is game/game-dev like, the text object 'imports a component' from the game/dev object to allow the interfaces to interact? (typed this while reading your explanation btw)
00:15:40 <ehird> now, in your RPG creator
00:15:51 <ehird> you plug in that object in to the "message on wall" fied
00:16:00 <ehird> if you plugged it in directly from the word processor without copying
00:16:03 <ehird> then you can edit in the word processor
00:16:06 <ehird> and it edits in the rpg
00:16:07 <mycroftiv> ok, yeah, i think i see how it can be modelled and work within the context youve described
00:16:09 <ehird> if you copy it like usual
00:16:12 <ehird> then it's a snapshot in time
00:16:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: generally there's not too much separate interface interaction, since that just leads to "app"-specific hell
00:16:40 <ehird> you generally operate directly with the objects
00:16:45 <mycroftiv> yeah, im trying to 'think my way out' of the paradigm
00:16:55 <ehird> but yeah, you could absolutely stick two interfaces together and tell them to talk
00:16:57 <ehird> if they know the other
00:17:09 <mycroftiv> thinking as a hypothetical user working with the hypoethetically existent system and trying to visualize what is im doing
00:17:23 <ehird> well i'm speaking in vague things like extracting the object because i haven't got on to the actual ui work
00:17:28 <ehird> so i don't know how exactly you'd go about that
00:18:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: one thing I'm totally unsure on is how to go about versioning every change of everything
00:18:51 <ehird> i don't want to eat up disk
00:18:57 <mycroftiv> since you are pursuing a kind of 'vision of purity' i would say as your design work continues you should make sure to create some imaginary user interfaces as you go
00:18:59 <ehird> but i hate not being able to undo
00:19:44 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, cant you still have the fundamentals of persistence but still be smart about 'delayed writes' to the actual disk?
00:19:54 <ehird> oh, that's handled in the persistence layer
00:20:02 <ehird> the point is that if you track every single atomic change to every single object
00:20:09 <ehird> your 2TB disk fills up uncannily quickly
00:20:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, i dont think it does if you use deduplication down in that persistence layer probably
00:20:38 <mycroftiv> but i think youd be surprised how much deduplicative storage can gain you in that regard
00:20:47 <ehird> I don't know what that is; I'll look it up
00:21:06 <mycroftiv> duplicate data blocks get stored as a pointer reference to the existing data block, not as a new redundant copy
00:21:08 <ehird> mycroftiv: basically diff.
00:21:12 <ehird> what hardlink backups do
00:21:23 <ehird> any time you see an unchanged file, make it a hardlink instead
00:21:33 <ehird> except more fine-grained
00:21:39 <mycroftiv> right, its that kind of thing, but dedup data storage yeah is block level
00:21:49 <mycroftiv> and for your system, you want to do something like 'rabin fingerprinting' i think
00:22:10 <mycroftiv> this is all your low level technical stuff to make your persistence concepts not actually kill your real world disks
00:22:21 <mycroftiv> as you correctly saw the need to anticipate
00:23:13 <ehird> yeah thankfully i can skimp on that at first
00:23:19 <mycroftiv> but i think you dont actually need to worry too much is what im saying
00:23:23 <ehird> due to my test objects being measured in kilobytes of text :P
00:23:32 <mycroftiv> your idea of total persistence and versioning of everything - i think its actually real world practical
00:23:34 <ehird> definitely though something like an HD video editor will want to throw away data a lot
00:23:36 <GregorR-L> Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss.
00:23:47 <ehird> because i mean in cases like that
00:23:51 <ehird> actually being able to use it trumps usability
00:23:54 <ehird> if you know what i mean
00:24:31 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah it seems like being able to say 'ok dont version/make persistent this particular 5 minute video im watching on a porn site' is probably something you want to allow
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00:24:45 <mycroftiv> since you said total freedom for the user is a base design principle
00:24:57 <ehird> I'm more a gnome man than kde
00:25:09 <ehird> so I definitely don't think edgecases need to be accounted for in the interface
00:25:12 <ehird> as opposed to manually telling the object something
00:25:25 <ehird> i.e. you can do anything, it just might not be pretty
00:26:09 <ehird> but that's just a standard UI compromise
00:26:13 <ehird> you could always make a new one for a new purpose
00:26:17 <ehird> and transition your objects over
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00:27:11 <mycroftiv> away for a bit now, thanks for explaining some more of the concepts to me
00:27:43 <mycroftiv> btw is there any name for this other than 'ehird's crazy persistent/versioned/rich object os' ?
00:28:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: hehehe where do i start
00:28:09 <ehird> naming is the hardest part of any project
00:28:19 <ehird> and i totally suck at it
00:28:36 <ehird> let's call it foop or zoop or something for the sake of it
00:28:43 <mycroftiv> sure, just to give it a conventional label
00:29:02 <mycroftiv> i bet if you google though someone has already stolen the foop/zoop namespace for software projects
00:29:11 <ehird> i meant temporarily
00:29:13 <ehird> of course it's taken
00:30:37 <ehird> let's call it bunny.
00:30:41 <ehird> something like that
00:30:55 <mycroftiv> since im already rather involved with a bunny-associated os (insert glenda.jpg)
00:31:48 <mycroftiv> i dont have anything computer related filed though under 'kitten' or kittens mentally
00:32:05 <ehird> I am not using lolcats as a splash screen.
00:32:25 <ehird> (vacuously true in a way; I'm not using any splash screen because in 1-2 seconds after it gets control it's in the state you left it in0
00:32:25 <mycroftiv> good, that means i dont have to commit physical violence if i ever meet you in person :
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00:38:42 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss.
00:39:13 <oerjan> first we need to move Napoli to Corsica. which might be better than next to Vesuvius, anyhow.
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01:00:32 <pikhq> I concur. I want Napoleon ice cream.
01:01:41 <ehird> Shaped like Napoleon!
01:06:04 * oerjan swats Gracenotes for perpetuating the myth -----###
01:07:04 <Gracenotes> people perpetuate myths all the time, don't they? For example, that any Eskimo language has 50 words for snow or something?
01:07:24 <Gracenotes> myths that are an essential part of our cultural discourse
01:07:34 <Gracenotes> don't knock the myth. or napolean ice cream.
01:09:43 <oerjan> "British propaganda depicted Napoleon as much smaller than average height and this image persists. Confusion about his height also results from the difference between the French pouce and British inch.2.71 and 2.54 cm respectively; he was 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in) tall, average height for the period."
01:10:45 <Gracenotes> dayum they used some crazy units back then. clearly the metric system is superior! </merikan>
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01:19:13 <oerjan> slipping away like that
01:19:39 <oerjan> "RELATED: I'VE INVENTED THE WORST MIXED DRINK EVER." >_<
01:21:16 <ehird> Gracenotes: actually.
01:21:22 <ehird> I've used metric all my life.
01:21:32 <ehird> I recently discovered the joys of the inch. (Shut up that is not an innuendo)
01:23:21 <ehird> Gracenotes: kph vs m/s?
01:23:26 <ehird> Methinks Randall made an ERROR!
01:23:48 <ehird> BEFORE HE FIXES IT
01:23:51 <ehird> HE IS *EVERYWHERE*
01:24:11 <Gracenotes> there are several xkcd sockpuppets in this channel currently
01:24:18 <ehird> for instance, ehird
01:24:27 <ehird> who momentarily patched one of the comics
01:24:30 <ehird> to fuck with everyone
01:24:32 * oerjan swats HackEgo for absence -----###
01:25:04 <oerjan> 5 km/h = 1.38888889 meters / second
01:25:45 <ehird> 7 meters a second?
01:25:56 <ehird> oerjan: also not km
01:26:02 <ehird> `calc 25 kph in meters/second
01:26:04 <ehird> `calc 5 kph in meters/second
01:27:16 <oerjan> kph = km/hour, colloquially
01:27:17 <ehird> who can run 7 meters a second?
01:27:24 <ehird> oerjan: not kilometers?
01:27:29 <ehird> that doesn't make sense as conversion
01:28:35 <ehird> oerjan: also, stfu
01:29:05 <oerjan> See The Fine Understatement
01:30:05 * oerjan learns more about the nasal infix
01:30:20 <oerjan> surprisingly nothing to do with piercing.
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01:53:48 <augur> who told you about the nasal infix?
01:53:52 <augur> someone on isharia linked to that
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04:14:38 <oerjan> <augur> who told you about the nasal infix?
04:14:50 <oerjan> wikipedia's Did You Know section
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08:12:22 <Gracenotes> so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold)
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09:43:25 <oklopil> err what is the power of chatzille, that it's open source?
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09:55:16 <oklopil> ehird: who can run 7 meters a second? <<< i can
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13:16:42 <Slereah> Do you know how to make the taskbar reappear on windows 7?
13:16:51 <Slereah> Just relaunching Explorer doesn't seem to work
13:17:39 <Slereah> Well, that was my last resort
13:17:43 <ehird> 00:12:22 <Gracenotes> so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold)
13:17:44 <ehird> lisp machine bitch
13:17:46 <Slereah> But I wondered if there was a simpler way
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13:22:18 <Sgeo> Apparently, I'm only allowed to be on the computer for an hour. My dad said he's going to ask my "grandmother" how long I was on the computer
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13:33:49 <ehird> "just wondering what else can get in thru code reviews. you guys... ah, better not to
13:33:49 <ehird> say anything. such a nice application and now this. there should be more buzz about
13:33:49 <ehird> it to make less people using chromium, such a insecure bullshit, where everybody can
13:33:49 <ehird> commit whatever. today it's creepy face, tomorrow it will be malicious code, nice work."
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13:41:18 <Sgeo> "Well, the problem is that there are minors playing this game and if that type of chat is allowed, maybe only age 18 and over should be allowed."
13:41:26 <Sgeo> http://www.epicmafia.com/forum/thread/1000
13:41:32 <Sgeo> (Might need to login to read)
13:50:38 <ehird> Firstly, who the fuck are these imaginary minors who can't stand "filth"?
13:50:45 <ehird> Secondly, what has this got to do with #esoteric?
13:52:26 <ehird> Sgeo: oh boy "How do you do that? Charge $2 a month payable by credit/debit card."
13:52:40 <Pthing> belly bum bottom balls
13:53:06 <ehird> Cunting fuckshit! That doesn't actually make any sense but it sounds fun.
13:53:18 <ehird> (Cunt isn't a verb, and fuck isn't an adjective.)
13:54:04 <ehird> Pthing: But yes, I'm tragically corrupted due to the evils of the interwebs.
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14:01:45 * Sgeo only swore once on EpicMafia, and that was because my scumbuddies gave me a code to use to let them know the role of the person we killed
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14:45:13 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/05/090531-crapgadgets-01.jpg
14:45:24 <ehird> The ear of a cat usbmomory
15:13:21 <ehird> "As far as Apple is concerned, the Black Hat 2009 hackers conference didn't end soon enough. Having promptly patched the iPhone vulnerability, Cupertino is facing another security hole, this time in its keyboards. A hacker going by the pseudonym of K. Chen has come up with a way, using HIDFirmwareUpdaterTool, to inject malicious code into the keyboard's firmware."
15:13:27 <ehird> 2009: The age of keyboard viruses.
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15:43:04 <oklofok> fuckshit doesn't require fuck to be an adjective though
15:45:30 <ehird> oklofok: does though!
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15:54:48 <oklofok> in fact it requires it not to be an adjective
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16:19:16 <oklofok> hmm indeed. still, a noun is what you'd normally have there, like you know "cockshit".
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16:24:17 <ehird> oklofok: cockshit doesn't make sense though
16:24:20 <ehird> unless it's a neologism
16:24:26 * impomatic wonders if that's the smallest infinite loop
16:24:27 <ehird> hi impomatic, we're talking about the semantics of curses
16:26:55 <ehird> impomatic: it's trivial to prove
16:27:12 <ehird> the only way to branch is via ^
16:27:20 <ehird> so we need, at the minimum, ()^
16:27:27 <ehird> now, what goes inside?
16:27:38 <ehird> which we know needs a ^
16:27:49 <ehird> and we see that this reduces to, infinitely,
16:34:24 <MizardX> ^ul ((0)(1))(~^:S~:S:*a~:*a*~:^):^
16:34:25 <fungot> 101100111100001111111100000000111111111111111100000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
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16:36:07 <MizardX> ^ul ((.)(1))(~^:S~:Sa~:*a*~:^):^
16:36:07 <fungot> 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
16:36:28 <pikhq> Having fun with the un-est of Lambdas?
16:39:36 <MizardX> That's Underload, not Unlambda. :P
16:43:20 <ehird> "I've noticed that as I copy data/install programs on my Laptop, the weight of the Laptop increases."
16:43:29 <ehird> It's all the bits!
16:45:42 <ehird> [[This is a rare error when the overwriting mechanism of the memory banks lead to an overflow of data because it cannot add on and thus super-stack, increasing the weight significantly. While normal weight/file ratio is approximately 0.02 oz/GB, in rare cases such as these, it can go as high as somewhere around 6 oz/GB.
16:45:43 <ehird> One solution is going to the system32 folder (C:\WINDOWS\system32) and deleting certain unnecessary files, but too much tampering may cause permanent changes to your computer.]]
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17:08:18 <ehird> ^ul (*)(~:S( / )S:*~:^):^
17:08:19 <fungot> * / ** / **** / ******** / **************** / ******************************** / **************************************************************** / ******************************************************************************************************************************** / ********************************************* ...too much output!
17:08:28 <ehird> MizardX: I golf you!
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17:11:00 <MizardX> It doesn't get much shorter than that.
17:11:27 <MizardX> The exception being the whitespace.
17:17:29 <ehird> MizardX: No whitespace in mine.
17:17:32 <ehird> That's part of the output.
17:18:03 <fungot> 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
17:18:14 <ehird> Yes, but that's not the same prorgam.
17:22:30 <ehird> *Like or resembling a raptor.
17:23:20 * Sgeo sees proof that the Python documentation people aren't perfect
17:24:56 <ehird> [[But Ninjawords for iPhone suffers one humiliating flaw: it omits all the words deemed “objectionable” by Apple’s App Store reviewers, despite the fact that Ninjawords carries a 17+ rating.
17:24:56 <ehird> Apple censored an English dictionary.]]
17:24:59 <ehird> Jesus fucking christ.
17:25:05 <ehird> I want to throw my iPhone out of the window.
17:25:55 <pikhq> "Do not put the baby in the Dinosaur Comics". Opinions?
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17:26:55 <ehird> pikhq: Needs more funny.
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17:38:58 <ehird> ^ul (*)(~:S(*)*( / )S~:^):^
17:38:58 <fungot> * / ** / *** / **** / ***** / ****** / ******* / ******** / ********* / ********** / *********** / ************ / ************* / ************** / *************** / **************** / ***************** / ****************** / ******************* / ******************** / ********************* / ********************** / ***** ...too much output!
17:39:24 * ehird hacks up a binary counter
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18:21:59 <GregorR-L> ehird: The prgmr system I'm on went kablooie last night and it hasn't been fixed yet.
18:22:11 <GregorR-L> codu.org is being hosted on my home system right now :P
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18:22:44 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Well, I guess it's a good thing codu.org is not absurdly popular? ;P
18:23:09 <ehird> There is no way it can be absurdly popular.
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18:23:19 <GregorR-L> Being linked from qwantz.com = instant popular :P
18:23:22 <pikhq> ehird: Compared with codu.org.
18:23:29 <pikhq> And yes, it was linked from Qwantz.
18:23:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: Like, like, THOUSANDS of hits!
18:24:04 <GregorR-L> That's thousands of people who totally don't want to see "Cannot connect to lonelydino.com"
18:24:07 <ehird> Sorry, I'm just an old fart who TRULY KNOWS WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE #1 ON DIGG AND HAVE /B/ NOTICE.
18:25:19 <GregorR-L> Yeah, well I'm wearing a fuchsia shirt with a gold tie.
18:26:04 <pikhq> I can has in-state tuition now.
18:26:23 <ehird> Oh shit it has hover-over text
18:27:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: All the hover texts suck and you should eliminate them.
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18:46:57 <Azstal> I didn't know about the second hidden text on qwantz.com until recently :(
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18:48:39 <pikhq> Fun fact: Windows does not need the .exe extension to execute a file.
18:49:02 <pikhq> It works at least in NT OSes.
18:49:23 <pikhq> Apparently, it just cares if it's a valid PE file.
18:49:51 <pikhq> So, Cygwin could be built without ".exe" files all over the place.
18:50:35 <Asztal> GregorR: not the RSS title :D
18:50:54 <Asztal> although, I've missed those too since I don't use the RSS feed
18:51:03 <GregorR-L> If it's not the RSS title or the title text, I don't know to what you refer
18:51:33 <Asztal> GregorR-L: Look at the "contact" link in the top row :)
18:52:43 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, what's great is that's actually worded as a message to Ryan.
18:54:07 <ehird> didn't they use to all be in the title
18:54:10 <ehird> with two lines separating them
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19:08:06 <GregorR-L> Well, looks like my backups worked, and Codu2 is totally working, albeit only temporary until prgmr comes back. I'm getting spam again; hooray?
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19:39:17 <olsner> I'm actually always here whenever I'm online
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19:39:23 <oklopol> well i met my neighbor on #proglangdesign, so
19:40:38 <oklopol> i'm on wfg because a guy i know likes to conquer Q'less channels, why are you there?
19:41:05 <ehird> oh #proglangdesign that stupid copy of us
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19:41:17 <olsner> oklopol: oh, so you're one of the evil squatters then
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19:41:34 <olsner> I'm in #wfg because I'm actually involved in it
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19:43:07 <oklopol> olsner: i can probably ask bcz to give you the flags, in care you care
19:43:31 <oklopol> except i need to do something now ->
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20:00:33 <oklopol> olsner: am i to understand you don't negotiate with terrorists?
20:01:18 <ehird> i negotiate with terriers
20:01:35 <ehird> oklopol: anyway how do you "conquer" a channel just cuz it doesn't have a Q
20:01:36 <oklopol> may be kinda boring via irc
20:01:43 <olsner> oklopol: I am not currently engaged in a negotiation, no :P
20:01:47 <oklopol> ehird: you can ask for ops if there are none
20:01:54 <ehird> well that's stoopid
20:02:38 <oklopol> olsner: i'm just asking if the channel is actually important to you, while bcz probably doesn't give a shit, i do.
20:03:13 <ehird> oklopol: your friend sure sounds like a boring person
20:03:25 <ehird> "what should i do" "i know, i'll conquer quakenet channels!"
20:03:53 <olsner> it's just another kind of trolling
20:03:59 <oklopol> err yes, that's the general opinion
20:04:01 <ehird> 90% of trolling is boring
20:04:23 <oklopol> but no, he's not boring, least boring guy i know
20:04:50 <oklopol> probably a fairly bored person though
20:04:55 <ehird> boioioioioioioioiring
20:07:22 <oklopol> anyway that's what quakenet is for, why use it if you're not going to use it right
20:07:35 <ehird> quakenet is just a shoddy efnet
20:07:43 <ehird> efnet is where the anarchy @
20:08:30 <oklopol> i don't know much about efnet
20:09:04 <oklopol> think i've just used it for joining channels like #sex and gathering asl statistics
20:09:15 <ehird> oklopol: efnet's basically entirely anarchy, yeah there are ircops that rule with an iron fist, but that's just part of the game, not any sort of meta rule enforcement
20:09:59 <oklopol> if i understood you correctly, that's exactly how qnet works too, if you takeover a channel, it's yours, the ops don't give a shit
20:10:15 <ehird> oklopol: sure but efnet's anarchy goes beyond that
20:10:24 <ehird> i mean i don't even know if there are network-wide rules but they sure as hell aren't enforced
20:10:41 <ehird> oklopol: because it's just a bunch of servers wantonly connecting to each other and bits being flipped without human regard for just about anything
20:10:44 <ehird> qnet's quite similar
20:10:52 <ehird> so shoddy ripoff either way :D
20:11:38 <oklopol> wantonly has been promoted to your word of the month btw
20:11:50 <ehird> damn did i say wantonly beforehand
20:12:09 <oklopol> you've used it 3 times so that i've seen, i think
20:12:27 <oklopol> which i know because i read it as like "by want-only basis" at first and i was like what
20:12:30 <ehird> i guess you could say that
20:13:16 <oklopol> anyway more watching random stuff ->
20:13:29 <ehird> oklopol: but I'm wantonly beforehanding, amirite
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20:25:29 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s3d1LfjWCI
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20:36:46 <evenant> and he didn't even have to do anything super fancy, i'm a little curious how a* is applied there, i never had thought about that algorithm in terms of say, platforming
20:38:08 <ehird> evenant: yeah it is cool
20:38:12 <ehird> i'm thinking of trying one myself
20:38:17 <ehird> I think a semi-pacifist AI could work well
20:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:38:26 <ehird> i.e. optimise for paths that avoid interacting with monsters
20:38:35 -!- augur has joined.
20:38:39 <ehird> i'm pretty sure it's possible to make a perfect ai that works on all solvable mario levels
20:40:07 -!- augur_ has joined.
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20:48:04 <oklopol> how is using a* with that any different from using it with another 2d map
20:49:29 <oklopol> well, it doesn't incorporate moving objects really, but you can easily run a complete search between every frame, so doesn't really matter
20:51:38 <evenant> it isn't, i just never thought of it that way
20:51:46 <pikhq> ehird: Now, if it incorporated the walk-through-walls glitch, I would be impressed.
20:52:11 <oklopol> but i would be impressed if it wasn't completely mario-specific
20:52:28 <pikhq> There's a few ROM-hacked Mario levels that require it.
20:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: it's not the original game
20:52:36 <ehird> it's randomly-generated
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20:54:12 <oklopol> would be fun to do something like that, unfortunately i never managed to read the content of the screen in :P
20:54:19 <pikhq> I wants it to play via NES emulator.
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20:56:23 <oklopol> pikhq: you seem to be interested in trivial and boring stuff, and not very interested in interesting stuff
20:57:18 <pikhq> oklopol: What, I ask, makes you think that?
21:00:32 <oklopol> pikhq: nm, nothing really :D
21:01:09 <pikhq> oklopol: Very well, þen. Þou art full of ſhit. Diſcuß.
21:02:51 <oklopol> i cannot explain what my point was
21:03:01 <oklopol> would require too many words
21:03:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Words are not scarce. :P
21:03:39 <oklopol> well i did, more like didn't notice you there
21:04:46 <oklopol> pikhq: i just didn't find your ideas for how to enhance that thingie very mathematically interesting; i in no way wanted to imply they should be, it was just a complex unfunny joke.
21:05:35 <pikhq> oklopol: It's hackerly interesting, not mathematically.
21:07:11 <nooga> what? (too lazy to check the logs)
21:07:49 <oklopol> nooga: nothing, i just said something that doesn't make sense without a long explanation
21:08:01 <oklopol> which i haven't completely given
21:08:11 <oklopol> and won't. god i'm annoying to talk to
21:09:08 <ehird> you can make hackerly values mathematical, maybe
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22:02:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:03:17 <ehird> think I'll start my os soon
22:13:08 <ehird> ugh, that mario ai thing is realtime
22:13:10 <ehird> you only have 40ms
22:16:29 <nooga> what Mario AI thing?
22:16:46 <nooga> ehird: let me guess, plan-9 clone written in haskell?
22:17:30 <pikhq> That's written in Voynich script.
22:17:52 <ehird> nooga's so close to being funny if only he had a sense of humour
22:18:30 <nooga> i didn't even try to be funny right now
22:19:10 -!- coppro has joined.
22:19:29 <coppro> http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Programming-Praxis-Josephus-Circle.aspx?CommentReplies=280209 :D
22:20:03 <ehird> piet isn't especially hard, is it?
22:20:49 <coppro> and that's a beautiful one, too
22:21:28 <nooga> looks pretty, has colors, me likes colors, ugh
22:22:28 <coppro> remind me to solve today's in INTERCAL
22:23:44 <coppro> hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet
22:26:24 <ehird> I wish there was a button to obliterate nooga from the channel. :D
22:26:50 <coppro> ehird: I refuse to use anything but my own code when I do INTERCAL
22:26:59 <nooga> you could make one easily, ehird
22:27:17 <ehird> coppro: That's nice? …Context?
22:27:25 <ehird> coppro: Also, not even syslib.i? That's just stupid.
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22:27:32 <coppro> [15:23:44]hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet
22:27:34 <coppro> [15:25:39]<ehird>Fascicle
22:27:43 <ehird> Yeah, uh, fascicle was just a random word I said.
22:28:28 <nooga> Yeah, uh, testicle was just a random word I said... I do that A LOT
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22:29:31 <ehird> nooga: how could I easily make this obliteration button?
22:29:37 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:30:08 <ehird> damn I wish I had secret op rights so I could +o myself now
22:30:26 <nooga> step 2: rewrite limechat to create such button that sends apropriate command to channel
22:30:42 <ehird> What would editing LimeChat.app do for me?
22:31:41 <nooga> display a button (with caption "obliterate nooga from the channel" if needed) that would send +b for me ?
22:31:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:32:13 <ehird> But how would I invoke that from my IRC client?
22:33:06 <nooga> oh, just use limechat in that marvelous moment
22:33:15 <nooga> modified limechat with button
22:33:18 <ehird> But I don't use LimeChat.
22:34:42 <nooga> weren't you the one who recommended limechat to me
22:35:12 <nooga> okay, quite logical
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22:38:26 <nooga> uh, limechat just crashed
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22:45:59 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M
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23:01:55 -!- ehird has joined.
23:02:13 <ehird> 14:45:59 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M
23:02:18 <ehird> firstly that's not a hallucinogen
23:02:40 * Sgeo first found out about it today, so it
23:02:44 <Sgeo> it's not old to me
23:03:42 <ehird> it's interesting though
23:03:49 <ehird> but the effects only last about 3-5 seconds
23:04:01 <ehird> not nearly trippy enough :)
23:04:32 <Sgeo> For me, the effect is strong, but yeah, 1:40 for 5 seconds of effect is meh
23:05:26 <Sgeo> Then again, people do that with food. Hours of cooking, for maybe 30min of eating
23:05:41 <ehird> yeah but 30min of eating is way more enjoyable than 5 seconds of warping
23:05:47 <ehird> and cooking can be fun
23:05:55 * Sgeo doesn't find eating to be enjoyable :/
23:06:09 <ehird> then either you eat bad food or have issues
23:06:22 <Sgeo> I think the latter
23:06:22 <ehird> anyway, Sgeo, I've seen better versions of that effect
23:06:23 <ehird> a little weaker, but only take 15-30s
23:06:31 <Sgeo> ehird, ooh, where?
23:06:39 <ehird> all over the internet
23:06:53 <ehird> i mean it's uberfamous
23:07:07 <ehird> http://zecina.blogspot.com/2009/04/warp-illusion.html
23:07:10 <Sgeo> "Using slow motion causes a longer and stronger trip."
23:07:13 <ehird> googled "warping illusion" on google
23:07:16 <Sgeo> ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSUrdipBY8 )
23:07:20 <Sgeo> Don't know if that's true
23:07:37 <ehird> the blogspot one i linked to is more spiky
23:07:38 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
23:08:05 <ehird> Sgeo: effects can linger btw
23:08:16 <ehird> for instance my computer's UI elements bulged almost imperceptably for seconds after
23:08:45 <nooga> ehird: that's quite normal since you're using mac
23:08:46 <ehird> Sgeo: have you seen that thing where you stare at one image and stare at another which gives it colours, and even five years later the colours are still there without looking at the trigger?
23:08:51 <ehird> nooga: hur hur hur
23:09:12 <Sgeo> ehird, um, what? I've seen that thing before, but the effects don't last 5 years
23:09:24 <ehird> it's another thing, then
23:09:28 <ehird> it was specifically deigned and researched
23:09:55 <ehird> comment on that slow video:
23:09:57 <ehird> [[if i look at a shadow its fuck are it could be the acid fuck maybe it not wise to wacth these while high on acid what the fuck am i typein who am i typein to why am i typin]]
23:10:02 <ehird> yeah I think it's the acid not the video.
23:11:50 <ehird> Sgeo: thing augur told me about,
23:12:01 <ehird> if you put on glasses that make everything upside down, you'll be disoriented at first
23:12:06 <ehird> but then, everything is fine
23:12:12 <ehird> and if a week or two later you take them off?
23:12:15 <ehird> Everything seems upside down.
23:12:25 <ehird> And you have to relearn what's the right way up.
23:12:39 <ehird> oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough
23:15:12 <Sgeo> Shouldn't it only take a day or two to get reoriented?
23:15:26 <Sgeo> No, the longer video didn't have longer lasting effects for me :(
23:15:29 <ehird> but who knows what it could fuck up in your brain
23:15:50 <ehird> i bet you'd have to relearn left/right from scratch, for instance
23:15:54 <ehird> which is not as easy as it sounds...
23:16:14 * Sgeo has had issues with left/right when he was younger
23:17:39 <ehird> Sgeo: my mother still has to think to remember which is which
23:19:35 <Sgeo> http://frogger11758.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/left-left-left-right-left/
23:20:27 <ehird> "I wonder if this is an Aspie trait or simply an idiosyncracy of mine."
23:20:40 <ehird> God, I hate people who ascribe everything to the vague notion of Asperger's syndrome.
23:20:54 <ehird> There's a word for that guy's condition; it's "can't tell left from right".
23:21:23 <Sgeo> ...hence the wonder, and not "It's because I'm an Aspie"
23:21:55 <ehird> I really don't care, such association is completely unfounded and just further muddies the definition of the psychological equivalent of a pile of mud
23:21:57 <GregorR-L> Yesterday reading my own written driving instructions I turned right instead of left, and even reading it multiple times I could have SWORN it was a right arrow. Does that mean I have Asperger's?
23:22:03 -!- coppro has joined.
23:22:13 <ehird> Being a geek and/or different and/or strange = YOU HAVE ASPERGER'S SYNDROME!
23:22:45 <Sgeo> ....I'm pretty sure that this person was diagnosed with AS
23:23:23 <Sgeo> Oh, you weren't talking about Cale in particular >.>
23:24:05 <ehird> Most of what I said still applies.
23:24:19 <ehird> And diagnosing someone with a pile of mud doesn't make it any less mdudy.
23:24:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHydHfs8mmo "Do not participate in this video several times in a short space of time"
23:24:50 <ehird> You can tell it's a serious warning because it has a cannabis leaf.
23:25:06 <ehird> lol that's recorded from a screen
23:25:19 <ehird> where's the table, I ask you
23:26:00 <Sgeo> $attempt_to_indicate_that_I_get_the_reference_without_being_able_to_come_up_with_a_suitable_reference_myself
23:26:01 <nooga> then who was phone?
23:26:27 <ehird> nooga: dude, that doesn't even fucking fit
23:27:10 <nooga> oh it's just a random phrase
23:27:12 <Sgeo> nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
23:27:29 <nooga> i tend to speak random phrases sometimes
23:27:45 <ehird> Sgeo: ahh the first image in the header is the devil's bible
23:29:36 <nooga> devils bible is fun
23:31:03 <augur> ehird, its more like a week of disorientation
23:31:06 <augur> gradually decreasing ofcourse
23:31:17 <ehird> augur: when you put on the glasses or after taking them off?
23:31:21 <ehird> also, has this actually been tried?
23:31:36 <ehird> by whom? link? any lingering effects at the end?
23:31:51 <augur> i dont remember by who, and no, no lingering effects
23:33:14 <ehird> augur: what i want to know is, does your brain actually end up flipping the image for you, so that it appears normal (not that you could really tell), or do you actually get an intuitive sense for the directions?
23:33:31 <ehird> i can't imagine feeling my arm going leftwards and associating that with anything other than what i see now as left
23:33:36 <augur> that question does not infact make sense.
23:33:45 <augur> despite the obvious sensicality of it.
23:34:02 <nooga> ehird: shut up <-- he's afraid of the devil ;D
23:34:09 <ehird> nooga: no, that image is just creepy
23:36:25 <augur> the world has no inherent up and down. we have gravity here on earth, sure, and your brain correlates sensed direction of gravity with motion in your visual inputs, but the "image" isn't flipped, etc. if you hung yourself upside, in a room that was upside down, the image would be "right side up", but it would FEEL upside down. and eventually, as your brain adjusts to the change in gravity, you would not be able to distingui
23:36:28 <augur> sh anything as being different from how it was, i think
23:36:36 <augur> but it wouldnt "flip" in any sense
23:36:52 <augur> its like talking about flipping an image in your computer. not on your SCREEN, but in the computer, in the binary representation.
23:36:55 <augur> binary has no up or down
23:36:57 <augur> it makes no sense.
23:37:23 <Sgeo> We could call the direction that gravity pulls in the world's "down"
23:37:30 <augur> right, i said that
23:37:39 <augur> well, i said that we have gravity
23:37:43 <augur> calling that down changes nothing
23:38:33 <augur> your experience of the visual stuff aligned in one way or another is the result of how that data correlates with other sensory data, but the sum total of that data has no "down" independent of how the data coheres
23:39:11 <ehird> it just upsets me we can't ask these questions
23:39:23 <pikhq> augur: "Down" is a direction that only has meaning regarding a frame of reference. That's about it. Whoo.
23:39:24 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough <<< i've thought about doing that many times, but i don't have the glasses to do it.
23:39:24 <augur> but the answer is that there is no answer. :)
23:39:31 <ehird> and scares me that our minds are so...
23:39:38 <oklopol> also i've heard it takes a lot more than a few days
23:39:48 <augur> if anything it should turn you on!
23:39:50 <ehird> augur: as in, we couldn't detect a serious cognitive change from inside that cognition
23:40:00 <augur> well we could actually
23:40:06 <ehird> and we can't observe those cognitive changes from outside
23:40:10 <ehird> very Reflections on Trusting Trust
23:40:14 <augur> because we would observe a difference in how things cohere
23:40:23 <ehird> orly? how would you detect the flip change
23:40:37 <augur> well you'd detect it at FIRST by the fact that the image would appear upside down to you
23:40:42 <augur> your brain has to adjust
23:40:50 <augur> but the image on your retina is ALREADY upside down.
23:40:51 <ehird> because they wiped your memories of adjusting
23:41:01 <augur> ok, well, in that case, so what?
23:41:14 <augur> your experience of the world before and after is no different
23:41:18 <ehird> I care about plenty of questions of that sort
23:41:22 <ehird> e.g. quantum mechanics interpretation
23:41:25 <augur> all thats different is whether your retinas are bigendian or littleendian
23:41:39 <ehird> the image ISN'T subjectively flipped
23:41:43 <ehird> the cognitive experience we get
23:41:45 <ehird> is exactly the same
23:41:58 <ehird> not just our mappings being readjusted but not the visuals
23:42:11 <augur> but the visuals ARE the mappings
23:42:12 <augur> thats all there is
23:42:17 <AnMaster> blue2_light.bmp: PNG image data, 512 x 512, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced <-- someone fails at file extensions :D
23:42:20 <ehird> but it doesn't feel like that
23:42:24 <ehird> it feels like we have a bitmap image in front of us
23:42:27 <augur> well ofcourse it doesnt
23:42:27 <ehird> and interpret it cognitively
23:42:38 <augur> because our brain processes the content of the data
23:42:39 <ehird> it doesn't feel like what i see is my cognitive representation
23:43:01 <augur> i mean, its like the brain has a native jpeg interpreter
23:43:09 <augur> and doesnt need to render out to a bit map to do facial recognition
23:43:12 <ehird> uh my vision is better quality than jpeg
23:43:24 <ehird> anyway, I'm just saying that my vision FEELS unprocessed
23:43:25 <augur> instead, it just learnt to detect faces in the jpeg encoded data
23:43:27 <ehird> it feels like i act on that
23:43:35 <ehird> which of course is false
23:43:42 <augur> well sure it does, because you're detecting the semantics, not the encoding
23:43:53 <augur> and you are, in a sense, acting on a direct image
23:44:16 <augur> i mean, the periphery has direct images as input
23:44:17 <ehird> so basically, if you had a button that let you switch between adjusted-to-flip-with-flip and not-adjusted-without
23:44:22 <ehird> then clicking it would seem to do nothing at all
23:44:34 <augur> and the patterns, the relative behaviors, are all still detectable
23:44:38 <augur> and thats what your brain cares about
23:44:40 <ehird> as opposed to if the visuals were unprocessed and we acted on them, in which case there would be some sort of visual jolt
23:44:42 <augur> the correlative behavior
23:44:43 <ehird> but everything would seem right
23:44:44 <augur> not the literal form
23:44:46 <ehird> augur: confirm/deny
23:44:47 <oklopol> ehird: the image doesn't flip, but what does magically flip is what it means to move your left or right arm, because you need to adjust those to work with what you see. so to speak. as augur said, not a completely well-defined question
23:45:02 <oklopol> everyone should just try it out
23:45:17 <ehird> oklopol: but you couldn't answer the question even subjectively
23:45:23 <ehird> at which point you'd have to do it again
23:45:31 <ehird> you need both states at once to answer it
23:45:40 <oklopol> anyway i'm already pretty good at moving based on looking in the mirror
23:45:58 <oklopol> i only get practise in elevators, so progress is slow
23:46:28 <ehird> you could buy a mirror.
23:46:29 <oklopol> it's weird how fast you can flip your left and right
23:47:09 <oklopol> that's not exactly skill #1 to acquire on my list.
23:51:28 <ehird> is your mom like finlandic your face
23:52:51 -!- meanburrito920 has joined.
23:52:58 <ehird> Oh no, it's a burrito. That is mean.
23:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, did you see that about wrong extension above?
23:53:15 <oklopol> HEY THE CORRECT TERM IS FIN*NISH*
23:53:24 <oklopol> god i hate your ignorance GRRR
23:53:25 <ehird> oklopol: no that's the culture
23:53:27 <ehird> finlandic is the place
23:53:32 <ehird> AnMaster: What am I supposed to respond?
23:53:34 <ehird> Hi meanburrito920.
23:54:01 <nooga> dear, i guess what ehird done here is an example of my (alleged) idiocy
23:54:13 <ehird> meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice?
23:54:16 <meanburrito920> oklopol, are you showing cultural ignorance of finishing?
23:55:28 <nooga> look ol' polo ok? oklopol
23:55:45 <meanburrito920> ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy
23:56:25 <ehird> meanburrito920: well it's a good thing you appear to be in programming channels because we do not yet specialise in voodoo.
23:56:36 <ehird> also you came in at a great time, this channel is like this pretty much always.
23:57:55 <ehird> Also, oklopol's face really looks like that.
23:57:59 <oklopol> have i done many palindromes here?
23:59:13 <nooga> ehird: meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice?
23:59:20 <nooga> meanburrito920: ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy
23:59:22 <oklopol> "th" is an annoying little bastard
23:59:24 <ehird> nooga: hey i copywrit that
23:59:27 <oklopol> when it comes to making pals
23:59:31 <nooga> (probably ehird found a new friend)
23:59:36 <ehird> helsinki technology university
23:59:44 <ehird> nooga: i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about
23:59:51 <oklopol> ehird: nicks, names and acronyms are cheating
23:59:55 <nooga> fuck about talking
23:59:58 <ehird> meanburrito920: http://esolangs.org/ btw
00:00:28 <oklopol> well. some palindromers actually use *initials*, so i guess a htu or two might do.
00:00:44 <GregorR-L> meanburrito920: But 'lane' isn't even in here!
00:01:43 <meanburrito920> oh wait, so is this basically about everyone getting together and writing brainfuck?
00:01:54 <pikhq> meanburrito920: Not just Brainfuck.
00:02:02 <ehird> well some of us are esolang snobs
00:02:04 <pikhq> And only nominally.
00:02:04 <ehird> and brainfuck is kinda old.
00:02:16 <ehird> meanburrito920: but mostly we talk about everything because offtopicness is a virtu
00:02:25 <nooga> MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH GregorR-L
00:02:28 <pikhq> Really, we're guys with a fondness of esolangs that talk about almost everything but esolangs. :P
00:02:51 <ehird> Hey, we've had like two girls!
00:03:05 <ehird> Sukoshi, that weed-smoker mathematician person recently who was here for, like, minutes
00:03:07 <oklopol> except i guess one of them was me
00:03:16 <ehird> oklopol: So you admit it!
00:03:29 <oklopol> it's your word against mine
00:03:40 <pikhq> oklopol: What, you were once a pre-op or some such?
00:04:11 <ehird> oklopol: no I always said it was you
00:04:15 <ehird> and you just admitted it was you :P
00:04:17 <ehird> pikhq: "hotidlerchick"
00:04:32 <oklopol> i've admitted it tons of times, then unadmitted it again
00:04:35 <pikhq> oklopol: ... That you *know* of?
00:04:45 <ehird> pikhq: oklopol can't even remember if he's ever had drugs in his life.
00:05:03 <pikhq> Clearly oklopol lives in a land of memory modification devices.
00:05:03 <oklopol> pikhq: i have no idea how i was her.
00:05:17 <nooga> i had, some of them are quite cool
00:05:29 <oklopol> actually i have a pretty good memory
00:05:31 <pikhq> nooga: I've had... Caffeine, alcohol.
00:05:38 <pikhq> Aren't I less-than-creative.
00:05:48 <oklopol> i don't count caffeine and alcohol as drugs
00:06:05 <ehird> why not alcohol, iirc weed is less dangerous than alcohol
00:06:07 <pikhq> oklopol: What *do* you count as drugs?
00:06:10 <oklopol> reason simply being that they usually aren't called that. i have had both
00:06:21 <pikhq> ... They generally are, actually.
00:06:27 <oklopol> pikhq: anything that gives you a high, except alcohol
00:06:36 <ehird> oklopol: so... everything?
00:06:40 <pikhq> oklopol: That is a crap definition.
00:06:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:07:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:07:13 <pikhq> We're programmers and mathematicians. What do you expect, anti-pedantry?
00:07:14 <oklopol> pikhq: yes. including alcohol would be better. but it's usually not included.
00:07:15 <ehird> IME people on weed are fun to talk to
00:07:21 <ehird> but people on alcohol are mostly fools
00:07:48 <oklopol> pikhq: pedantry about things you can be more creatively pedantic about than just spout the same fucking bullshit year after year
00:08:06 <nooga> IMHO thc is nice, but i don't do it much, acid is awful, amphetamine is like coffee^200, huh... alcohol is stupid, nicotine is even worse
00:08:15 <oklopol> not referring to you in particular, i just know exactly what's to pedantize about this drug definition thing.
00:08:23 <pikhq> ehird: People with a dosage of alcohol that actually... Does anything? Yeah, that's just painful.
00:08:39 <pikhq> oklopol: So, more-or-less saying "That's old and tired. Could we move on?"?
00:08:42 <oklopol> ehird: i will count water as a drug in situations where someone manages to get a high off of it.
00:08:48 <ehird> alcohol always intoxicates but yeah a beer or two doesn't affect most people
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00:09:01 <pikhq> ehird: You know what I meant. ;)
00:09:04 <oklopol> pikhq: something like that.
00:09:12 <ehird> i don't even see a point to drinking alcoholic drinks if you're not trying to get drunk tbh
00:09:20 <ehird> well i guess some people might think they like the taste
00:09:42 <oklopol> that basically means i like bad tastes
00:09:45 <pikhq> Some people actually do enjoy the taste.
00:09:49 <nooga> ehird: have you tried at least once?
00:09:58 <ehird> pikhq: i think there's an element of cultural conditioning tbh
00:09:59 <oklopol> i would love alcoholfree vodka
00:10:07 <ehird> good things happen around alcohol → alcohol is good
00:10:11 <ehird> → alcohol tastes good
00:10:23 <nooga> good (expensive) vodka has no taste and smell
00:10:35 <ehird> expensive water that makes you stupid
00:10:36 <oklopol> well i'm talking about the crappy ones that taste like death
00:10:38 <pikhq> ehird: There's an element of cultural conditioning in most aesthetic preferences.
00:10:38 <ehird> and kills your cognitive functions
00:10:39 <nooga> vodka with taste is awful
00:10:50 <ehird> pikhq: true. alcoholic drinks mostly taste like shit though :P
00:10:56 <pikhq> (am I a nerd for calling "flavor" an aesthetic preference?)
00:11:05 <pikhq> ehird: What have you tried?
00:11:12 <nooga> ehird: wait untill your gf will break up with you
00:11:14 <ehird> not much, i don't even recall much
00:11:21 <ehird> don't have any inclination
00:11:28 <nooga> oh, excuse me, i doubt you'll ever find oen
00:11:39 <oklopol> that was one helluva zinger
00:11:55 <ehird> nooga: Are you really such a pathetic person that the only way you can solve emotional problems is by killing your higher brain functions?
00:12:11 <nooga> sometimes it's necessary
00:12:19 <oklopol> girls are a lot easier to pick up while sober
00:12:25 <pikhq> And I thought I was pathetic.
00:12:25 <ehird> That's a convincing argument nooga.
00:12:27 <oklopol> it's getting them drunk that matters
00:12:42 <ehird> <nooga> You need to get shitfaced when your gf breaks up with you <ehird> Pathetic <nooga> You have to do it sometimes!!
00:13:14 <oklopol> anyway i'll go do some sleeping now, you stop picking on nooga, mean mean boys
00:14:14 <pikhq> He *really* needs to stop picking on himself. It's just pathetic.
00:14:25 <ehird> nooga: so what's your logic for me never getting a girlfriend, i'm curious
00:14:34 <ehird> i can think of several hilariously stupid possible answers
00:14:50 <ehird> and uncountably infinitely many unstupid ones, but I wouldn't expect you to hit one :P
00:14:52 <nooga> i'd pick one of that answers
00:17:36 <pikhq> ehird: You are to die in half an hour.
00:18:24 <pikhq> ehird: I refuse to specify in which reference frame that amount of time is accurate.
00:18:35 <Asztal> how did you find my death note :(
00:18:36 <pikhq> It is unlikely that it is yours.
00:18:39 <ehird> pikhq: and, uh, what prompted this
00:18:52 <pikhq> ehird: Logic for you never getting a girlfriend.
00:19:21 <pikhq> Asztal: Just borrowing it; I've got a few world leaders to deal with.
00:20:18 <ehird> knowing my luck i'll end up betting tons of money that i'll have a girlfriend one day to someone and then realise i'm gay straight after
00:20:28 <ehird> ("gay straight" ← unintentional)
00:21:11 <oklopol> then just get a gf for the money
00:22:01 <oklopol> or does it need to be real love like in the movie
00:29:13 <Sgeo> ***Using Yahoo Mail? If this message appears empty, try forwarding it to a non-Yahoo mail account. Your answer is there..we promise!***
00:29:18 <Sgeo> What can cause that?
00:34:37 <ehird> GregorR-L: practicing? :D
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00:37:29 <GregorR-L> No, I was just about to turn left ->
00:45:51 <Sgeo> meanburrito920, it wasn't spam
00:46:14 <Sgeo> Oh, Yahoo thinks it's spam?
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00:57:23 * pikhq watches the earthrise
00:58:35 <ehird> jump the shark, jump the shark, jump the hobo, hobo shark
01:00:15 <oerjan> i'll have you know this shark is no hobo, it owns a considerable amount of ocean real estate. you just happen to be in the middle of its hunting ground, in fact.
01:00:34 <ehird> yummy delicious seafaring real estate agents
01:00:51 <ehird> Q: What's a real estate agent in second life? ?
01:02:22 <oerjan> the god of hurds, hirds and hordes
01:02:26 <pikhq> Mr Hird, how does it feel to be referred to in a mutually recursive acronym?
01:02:40 <ehird> I spit on Richard Stallman and his thousand microkernel penises.
01:02:41 <pikhq> (namely, a Hird of Unix Replacing Daemons)
01:19:31 <ehird> http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal, http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html
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01:41:27 <ehird> the future's gonna be cool.
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02:32:35 <pikhq> GOD DAMMIT INTERNET IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY SEND ALL OF MY PACKETS THROUGH‽‽‽
02:32:43 <ehird> tcp has error correction for a reason
02:33:03 <pikhq> IM NOT EVEN ASKING FOR 100 MBITS/SEC, IM ONLY ASKING FOR YOU TO STOP DROPPING CONNECTIONS ENTIRELY
02:33:18 <pikhq> A MOTHERFUCKING SMOKE SIGNAL NETWORK WOULD BE BETTER
02:33:39 <pikhq> ehird: I have been unable to use HTTP for nearly 4 hours now.
02:33:53 <pikhq> I can only retain a connection to *some* IRC networks.
02:34:01 <pikhq> And I can't log into IM.
02:35:17 <pikhq> I would rather have 800 baud over this shit. At least 800 baud gets your connections through.
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02:37:52 <coppro> pikhq: have you called them?
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02:46:51 <pikhq> coppro: I don't know how to contact them. Satellite Internet; their phone number is not in the phone book.
02:47:04 <pikhq> I'd look it up online, but I DONT HAVE TCP.
02:47:48 <pikhq> Also, it would be a bad idea for me to be on the phone.
02:47:57 <pikhq> I think I would start with death threats and go from there.
02:48:19 <pikhq> WHO THE FUCK RUNS AN ISP THAT CANT EVEN GET TCP THROUGH‽
02:49:34 <coppro> whoever runs your ISP?
02:50:02 <pikhq> I'm going to go dropkick the modem.
02:50:07 <pikhq> And maybe the satellite dish after that.
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02:57:13 <pikhq> Inexplicably, the only host I can reliably connect to is Freenode.
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02:59:29 <coppro> obviously to advance, you need to contact your ISP
02:59:32 <coppro> stupid linear games :{
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03:27:17 <GregorR-L> I discovered today that you can make ties on zazzle.com
03:28:22 <GregorR-L> I can get ten ties for that price >_>
03:31:30 <pikhq> But it would be a tie of a cellular automaton.
03:36:37 <GregorR-L> I'm also mid deciding whether to become a shirt-and-tie guy :P
03:36:58 <GregorR-L> The problem is I have a bunch of awesome T-Shirts, which would be utterly useless in that case.
03:37:12 <GregorR-L> But my T-Shirts are all white or black, and my button-up shirts are more colorful.
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03:38:21 <pikhq> I suggest that you wear T-shirts whenever possible.
03:38:27 <pikhq> If you do not, then you will have grown up.
03:38:36 <pikhq> And as we all know, that is a sad, sad thing.
03:39:00 <GregorR-L> That's why I don't want to just wear T-shirts any more.
03:39:15 <GregorR-L> Wearing a shirt and tie is weirdsauce for somebody in CS research :P
03:39:33 <pikhq> See if you can push the casual bounds even further and don't wear shirts? :P
03:39:35 <GregorR-L> Besides, it's not grown up if it's a fuchsia shirt with a gold tie ^^
03:39:54 <GregorR-L> Yeah, my flabby torso is totally for public viewing :P
03:58:01 <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/rule_110_tie-151701718082685707
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04:44:07 <augur> if only because of the color.
04:44:07 <augur> if it were dark grey and black that'd be different.
04:44:10 <augur> and i'd wear one. if i have a need for ties.
04:45:10 <GregorR-L> If it was dark grey and black I sure as hell wouldn't wear one.
04:45:17 <GregorR-L> This will go with any of my fuchsia shirts.
04:45:32 <augur> what kind of fuschia?
04:45:37 <augur> does it have a nice pattern?
04:45:41 <augur> or is it just flat?
04:45:47 <GregorR-L> No, my shirts are mostly solid colors.
04:45:57 <GregorR-L> I have four fuchsia shirts, so "it" is not very specific :P
04:46:03 <GregorR-L> For some reason fuchsia shirts at goodwill always fit me.
04:46:12 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I appreciate your lack of taste.
04:46:26 <augur> and he lacks your appreciation of taste!
04:46:45 <GregorR-L> I have a lime green shirt and bright red tie I'll be wearing to the IBM "picnic" :P
04:46:59 <augur> oh you work for ibm ey?
04:47:14 <GregorR-L> Only temporarily, and in New Yawk, yea.
04:49:04 <augur> white plains, is it?
04:49:45 <GregorR-L> Or rather, Westchester County, as far as I understand White Plains is one town/village/something in Westchester County, but the IBM is in fact in Hawthorne? Something like that.
04:49:59 <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 // is this rule-30 color scheme more to your liking? It's more ... "subtle"? :P
04:52:42 <augur> gregor i hate you so much.
04:52:54 <augur> i hope you burn to death.
04:53:24 <GregorR-L> I made this one first, I think it should go with my purple shirt. Or maybe the pink one, but that's a fairly bright pink and this is more of a dark pink.
04:53:52 <GregorR-L> My means of dressing myself is basically "if it goes together, don't wear it"
04:54:00 <augur> go fuck yourself asshole. JUST GO FUCK YOURSELF. :|
04:54:52 <GregorR-L> augur is just jealous of my wonderful flamboyancy :P
04:55:18 <augur> if by flamboyancy you mean colors so bright you literally look like a burning piece of metal
04:56:18 <GregorR-L> I'm going to go to goodwill and buy ALL THE BRIGHTEST STUFF I CAN FIND.
04:56:34 <augur> because you're wearing clothes from goodwill
04:56:37 <augur> and look ridiculous.
04:57:04 <GregorR-L> Oooh, Mr. Snobbipants thinks I'm tacky.
04:57:20 <GregorR-L> Oooh, Mr. Snobbipants thinks I'm ridiculous.
04:58:12 <GregorR-L> That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!"
04:58:44 <GregorR-L> That's the "Mr. SnobbIIIIIIpants" part
04:58:52 <GregorR-L> Ooooh, I'm too good to shop at Goodwill.
04:59:00 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I would mock you for wearing a shirt and tie.
04:59:31 <pikhq> However, you carry a hackerly form of disregard for normal conventions with it, so I cannot bring myself to do so.
05:00:46 <GregorR-L> But augur's "mockery" is drizzled with a puree of lukewarm lamesauce, so I'm left with NO MOCKERY AT ALL!
05:01:12 <pikhq> Clothing from Goodwill is lame or something?
05:01:19 <pikhq> But my trenchcoat is the antilame!
05:01:28 <augur> trenchcoats are different, pikhq
05:01:30 <GregorR-L> Heh, I have a Goodwill trenchcoat too :P
05:01:33 <augur> those are cooler when you get them from other people
05:01:35 <augur> especially dead people
05:01:44 <augur> but normal clothing? no.
05:02:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: My roommates and I all bought trenchcoats last year. For 'tis awesome.
05:02:20 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Not only do they not wash them, but they grind the ashes of the dead into oil and rub it all over the clothes.
05:02:58 <GregorR-L> Yeah, you'd think it'd be too expensive, but apparently not?
05:20:42 <GregorR-L> Could I ... put the spinners optical illusion on a tie ...???
05:20:47 <GregorR-L> Is that the single worst idea ever? (yes)
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05:27:55 <GregorR-L> augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat
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06:03:05 <pikhq> Y'know, US politics needs fixed.
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06:03:46 <pikhq> The US would have been great if it were under the rule of Norton I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico.
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10:09:04 <oklopol> GregorR-L: Hmm left <- <<< xxxxxxxxxxD
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11:05:12 <oklopol> http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html <<< this is totally reason enough to commit suicide
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11:33:30 * AnMaster read a bit and it seems like average sci-fi so far.
11:34:25 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's particularly good scifi, i'm saying what i said.
11:34:47 <oklopol> also i could be saying it's particularly good scifi, but that would be a secondary point,
11:34:53 <AnMaster> "this is totally reason enough to commit suicide" sounds like it is *VERY* bad
11:37:05 <oklopol> it's the ideas in it, or maybe more the way they were depicted, that made me say that
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12:12:19 <oklopol> liked http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal as well
12:12:26 <oklopol> i should probably read more scifi
12:13:28 <AnMaster> change for rating: average -> above average, possibly even "rather good"
12:15:05 <oklopol> well what's the top of the scale
12:15:21 <oklopol> measured in english, and in books
12:15:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm. "excellent" possibly is at the top
12:15:48 <AnMaster> as for books: haven't found one yet. HHGTG gets close, very close indeed. :)
12:16:16 <oklopol> maybe i should read it eventually, it's just it seems more fi than it is sci
12:16:23 <oklopol> i mean from what i've heard
12:16:37 <oklopol> i mean i'm mostly interested in the philosophical ideas in the articles
12:16:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, well that is true, and it is humoristic (sp?)
12:17:39 <oklopol> humoristic is a word, although humorous might fit better there
12:19:02 <oklopol> i mean i know what it means, never managed to reverse-engineer it
12:19:31 <oklopol> maybe because you're the only one who uses it, i don't really know
12:19:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, I picked it up from someone else
13:01:15 <AnMaster> I think something is broken... I get a single line of text when visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality : "Override this function." However... refreshing the page fixed it. How strange....
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13:13:35 <oerjan> no, just the most incomprehensible greeting i could think of
13:14:07 <oerjan> it _looks_ like it should be a norwegian transliteration of something, probably french. i don't know what though...
13:14:23 <oklopol> isn't bajs crap for swedish
13:15:00 <oerjan> not norwegian though (would be "bæsj")
13:19:13 <oerjan> ok sjallabais somehow means "party", but is also used as a greeting...
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13:20:34 <oklopol> well aren't you antisceptical
13:21:24 <oerjan> hm google throws up "trøndersk" dialect lists with it, so it may be a bit local
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13:23:55 <oerjan> otoh it may be spreading. mwuahaha!
13:24:48 <oklopol> yes, i will definitely start saying sjallabais whenever i don't believe something
13:26:36 * oerjan utterly fails at finding an etymology for it
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13:28:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: poor serron. but then, he probably deserves it.
13:29:19 <ehird> can't you guys keep it to #iwc
13:29:23 <ehird> oklopol: omg party \o/
13:29:37 <oerjan> i'm not in #iwc, or aware of its existence
13:30:14 <ehird> 19:38:21 <pikhq> I suggest that you wear T-shirts whenever possible.
13:30:14 <ehird> 19:38:27 <pikhq> If you do not, then you will have grown up.
13:30:14 <ehird> 19:38:36 <pikhq> And as we all know, that is a sad, sad thing.
13:30:14 <ehird> i wonder if acting childish actually slows that crippling ailment we refer to as aging
13:30:45 <oerjan> ehird: only if you also feel childish inside
13:31:01 <ehird> oerjan: that was implied
13:31:10 <ehird> also, ties are stupid
13:31:19 <ehird> they don't keep you warm, therefore useless item of clothing
13:31:29 <ehird> oklopol: easiest way to keep warm tho
13:31:32 <oerjan> if you are just pretending, it doesn't work. in fact it will only speed things up, as you start worrying if people are catching on
13:31:51 <oklopol> ehird: it's easier to stay inside
13:32:19 <ehird> i don't think i'll be drastically different when I'm 18
13:32:50 <ehird> i stopped totally changing every few years when I was 12
13:32:52 <oerjan> but then when you get 21... *BAM* average size ego
13:32:54 <ehird> guess that means I'm not learning anything
13:33:27 <oklopol> i stopped changing at like 12 too, then started changing rapidly a few years ago
13:33:29 <ehird> oerjan: but I *am* the most important thing in the universe
13:33:34 <ehird> the universe = my universe
13:33:37 <ehird> relativity says so
13:33:46 <ehird> just like when i talk about where things are, how fast they're moving etc
13:34:00 <ehird> from the viewpoint of my universe (again, colloquially, "the universe"), there is nothing more important than me
13:34:05 <ehird> since I'm the only thing keeping it extant
13:35:26 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> I have a lime green shirt and bright red tie I'll be wearing to the IBM "picnic" :P
13:35:49 <oerjan> GregorR: did you invent that color matcher just to make sure your clothes _never_ match? :D
13:35:52 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: poor serron. but then, he probably deserves it. <-- indeed
13:38:14 <oklopol> yeah that serron is one annoying little bitch
13:38:32 <ehird> quite so good chap
13:38:41 <ehird> 21:27:55 <GregorR-L> augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat
13:38:48 <ehird> <everyone else> Wow! A black tie!
13:39:29 <ehird> 03:05:12 <oklopol> http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html <<< this is totally reason enough to commit suicide
13:39:30 <ehird> why would you decrease your chances of it
13:39:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> 21:27:55 <GregorR-L> augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat <-- "no minimum order"? Right, *orders -2*
13:39:53 <ehird> It's a natural number.
13:40:06 <ehird> It won't accept "i", either. Or 3.4.
13:40:10 <ehird> Doesn't make the condition false.
13:40:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it didn't say it needed to be a natural number. Thought a real integer was enogh
13:40:53 <ehird> Wow, jokes based on intentional, impossible-to-not-be-intentional, trivial misunderstandings.
13:40:56 <ehird> Truly the cream of the crap.
13:41:07 <oklopol> N or R+ are usually implied for products
13:41:08 <ehird> oklopol: a general idea of how selling goods works
13:41:20 <oklopol> ehird: it's a tie, i'd assume N
13:41:25 <ehird> that always deletes it from your cart
13:41:29 <AnMaster> it would be awesome to buy -2 though
13:41:31 <ehird> and negatives aren't an option
13:41:40 <ehird> and you clearly can't buy part of a tie
13:41:42 <ehird> or an imaginary tie
13:41:44 <ehird> i conclude natural
13:42:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> or an imaginary tie <-- true. those are priceless
13:42:14 <ehird> no, they're just imaginary.
13:42:35 <ehird> humoristic, now that's a crappy word
13:42:51 <oerjan> ehird: but then clearly 1 _is_ the minimum order. these philistines don't understand well-ordering!
13:42:51 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure it's a well-defined word
13:43:15 <ehird> you can prolly make arbitrary long words in english with meaning
13:43:35 <oklopol> well. clearly they are saying the set of possible amounts to order does not have a smallest object
13:43:45 <ehird> wow you tricked me oklopol, it wasn't actually a party
13:44:18 <oklopol> that means it can either be infinitely small, or supremum doesn't exist
13:44:53 <oklopol> because N and R+ are the two usual possibilities, i'd just assume that means "you can buy only part of a tie"
13:44:57 <oerjan> oklopol: itym infimum?
13:45:30 <oklopol> i'm not very good with associating terms with their meanings
13:46:00 <oklopol> although i guess Q+ might make more sense
13:46:22 <oklopol> is Q+ = Q+\{0} or what's the usual definition?
13:47:16 <oklopol> i mean of course that's not the definition, i'm asking whether it contains 0
13:47:32 <oklopol> is that a property of Q+ with its usual definition
13:47:50 <ehird> oklopol: you mean Q+ == Q+\{0} of course
13:48:21 <oklopol> only primitive unlanguages need a distinction between == and =
13:49:02 <oklopol> GregorR: so what's that 110 computing huh?
13:49:47 <oklopol> ehird: although i guess you are right in that in this case the unlinguistic mix of english and math would've benefitted from it
13:50:17 <ehird> i kinda expected you to deny there's a difference
13:52:09 <oklopol> i'd say the only crucial difference is in binding of left argument
13:52:32 <oklopol> in = it's usually a name, instead of the object it already refers to
13:52:52 <ehird> it's binding vs structural comparison
13:53:28 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!"
13:53:45 <oklopol> yes, except binding as an operation is only relevant in unlanguages, there are better ways to do it
13:54:07 <oklopol> oerjan: he wants to look ridiculous?
13:54:27 <oerjan> GregorR: now i just have to ask what #1 and #2 are...
13:55:05 <oklopol> the fact that = binds isn't a crucial difference, the fact that it creates a new object referred to as whatever is on the left is. the actual binding is just an assertion with the same semantics as == has
13:55:22 <oerjan> ehird: er that was for my miscopying
13:55:37 <ehird> most things can't be both assertions and predicates in languages
13:55:44 <ehird> and this is often not a perfect mapping
13:55:57 <ehird> assert X = an object whose equality checker always returns false
13:57:14 <oklopol> yes, =, as an equivalence check, is inconsistent if it doesn't have the properties of an equivalence relation
13:57:37 <ehird> so what's your proposal, don't allow overriding equality?
13:58:09 <oklopol> i'm not exactly talking about practical programming :D
13:58:42 <ehird> oklopol: it can be for non-practical things too!
13:58:47 <ehird> like, like, self-caching data structures
14:02:12 <oerjan> <AnMaster> I think something is broken... I get a single line of text when visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality : "Override this function." However... refreshing the page fixed it. How strange.... <-- it's just our simulation having the occasional problem with meta-stuff. nothing to worry about.
14:02:54 <oklopol> equality should not be overridden for the actual objects, it should be about checking equality. but you often need to check if they have the same equivalence class, and a nice practical solution, when there's an obvious equivalence class, is to make equality check whether the objects have the same class.
14:03:28 <oklopol> so i guess my opinion is equality should be overridable
14:03:39 <oklopol> if only as a practical unsolution
14:04:07 <oklopol> another well-known greeting
14:04:32 <oerjan> that must be well-known in a different simulation than ours
14:06:08 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
14:06:13 <oklopol> should probably go make a food
14:07:14 <ehird> KERNELS, YAY KERNELS
14:07:17 <ehird> KER KER KER KER KERNELS
14:07:24 <ehird> KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERNELS
14:07:28 <ehird> LET'S ALL PROGRAM KERNELS
14:12:28 <ehird> oklopol: smalltalk80 is awesome isn't it
14:13:34 <ehird> losethos guy has finally gone totally off the deepend
14:13:48 <ehird> <losethos> Free 64-bit Operating System Release: LoseThos V5.11
14:13:53 <ehird> <plan17b> Wouldn't it be simpler to stab your eyes out with a screw driver?
14:14:02 <ehird> <losethos> I don't lust. It is you who needs to do that, you perverted porn addict.
14:14:02 <ehird> <losethos> 27 19 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 20 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better f
14:14:18 <ehird> or you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
14:14:37 <ehird> he takes to insulting his audience directly
14:14:40 <ehird> <losethos> The LoseThos operating system is the answer! It's 64-bit and super simple. You young folk don't like it, I know. You don't understand... anything :-) http://www.losethos.com
14:14:52 <ehird> <losethos> Has graphics -- 640x480 16 color
14:14:52 <ehird> <losethos> Has HD Audio
14:14:53 <ehird> <losethos> You don't understand, obviously, punk.
14:14:53 <ehird> <losethos> I'd like to seen gen Y get to the moon.
14:14:53 <ehird> <losethos> I worked on Ticketmaster's proprietary VAX operating system. Look at Obama's attempt at cash for clunkers. Look at the Chinese Olympics ticketing crash.
14:15:02 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/97w0g/cnn_refuses_to_air_this_ad/c0bqm0h
14:15:07 <ehird> Gnashed their thanksgivings!
14:15:33 <ehird> Oh, and the post is about healthcare.
14:15:40 <ehird> Not coveting/adultery.
14:25:25 <oklopol> Since questions livest cares!
14:25:51 <oklopol> scary how well it answers the question
14:26:15 <ehird> wonder if he'll go on a killing spree
14:26:20 <ehird> i get the impression he's too cazy to
14:26:28 <ehird> probably looks shiftily and gibbers when outside
14:28:06 <ehird> that infinite mario ai thing
14:28:13 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlkMs4ZHHr8
14:28:20 <ehird> it actually DECIDED to jump into oblivion
14:28:25 <ehird> then do two precise jumps to get out again
14:28:28 <ehird> just to avoid some enemies
14:28:31 <ehird> too fucking hardcore
14:30:19 <ehird> i wanna write my own except it aims for max score
14:30:22 <ehird> instead of just "survival"
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14:31:36 <oklopol> i would love to make a general purpose gamer ai
14:31:48 <ehird> oklopol: minimax is probably the closest principle to that
14:32:02 <ehird> works in basically any competitive game
14:32:03 <oklopol> i wouldn't mind if it sucked ass, as long as it at least somewhat understood what the keys do
14:32:21 <ehird> Minimax (sometimes minmax) is a decision rule used in decision theory, game theory, statistics and philosophy for minimizing the maximum possible loss. Alternatively, it can be thought of as maximizing the minimum gain (maximin). Originally formulated for two-player zero-sum game theory, covering both the cases where players take alternate moves and those where they make simultaneous moves. It has also been extended to more complex games and to general deci
14:32:36 <oklopol> err yes, naturally i know what the algorithm is
14:32:36 <ehird> sion making in the presence of uncertainty.
14:32:53 <ehird> you can't really get more generic than that though
14:33:02 <ineiros> Re: kernels. Babble generator says: "kernels are specific nodes or the liver , and the two - party case , we see a picture , if you will ?"
14:33:25 <ehird> ineiros: not nearly as good as the one, the only, LOSETHOS GOD COMMUNICATION SYSTEM!
14:34:13 <fizzie> My IRC-based language model just says "kernels are dumb."
14:34:46 <ehird> http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html
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14:42:51 <GregorR-L> Aug 06 08:35:49 <oerjan> GregorR: did you invent that color matcher just to make sure your clothes _never_ match? :D
14:43:19 <GregorR-L> Aug 06 08:38:50 <ehird> <everyone else> Wow! A black tie!
14:43:33 <GregorR-L> Aug 06 08:49:06 <oklopol> GregorR: so what's that 110 computing huh?
14:43:53 <GregorR-L> Aug 06 08:53:30 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!" \ Aug 06 08:54:28 <oerjan> GregorR: now i just have to ask what #1 and #2 are...
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14:46:08 <Pthing> anyone used a rule 110 to actually compute any actual problems yet
14:46:12 <ehird> we have a culture of blocked logreading/responding
14:46:17 <ehird> Pthing: no, it's useless.
14:46:30 <Pthing> oh i see my apologies, i will go and ask on
14:46:47 <oerjan> Pthing: the computations are horribly inefficient
14:46:52 <Pthing> by "actual", I of course mean esolang-level actual
14:47:07 <ehird> well i'm sure someone's probably done it
14:47:16 <ehird> can't be hard to compile BCT
14:47:38 <oerjan> it was designed for cyclic tag so...
14:53:28 <ehird> oerjan: wuzzat supposed to mean
14:54:14 <oklopol> i wonder if anyone ever excited it into a sevenfold glio
14:54:48 <oerjan> ehird: the rule 110 universality proof used a tag system
14:55:06 <ehird> now we just need to write a real program in BCT :P
14:55:32 <oklopol> WELL WE ALREADY KNOW HOW TO WRITE ONE IN B AND C SO SHOULD BE EASY
14:55:52 <ehird> and T is a dialect of Scheme!
14:56:38 <oklopol> how convenient... maybe a little too convenient though.
14:57:05 <ehird> oklopol: int main(void) { extrn cons; auto a; a=(cons 1 2); return 0; }
14:58:38 <ehird> extrn cons; auto a;
14:58:53 <AnMaster> my mind read it as "extern" not "extrn"
15:01:08 <oerjan> your mind is trying too hard to be helpfl
15:06:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, that had the wrong shape though
15:07:07 <AnMaster> as in: IxIpII vs IxIpIxI where
15:07:12 <ehird> i'm actually blind
15:07:18 <AnMaster> where* the letters represent the overall *shape*
15:07:21 <ehird> betcha didn't notice :)
15:07:51 <AnMaster> with extern/extrn the only difference is the length of the last "x-height" segment
15:08:08 <ehird> hmm, blind typography enthusiast :D
15:08:10 <AnMaster> when it comes to overall shape
15:08:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, what has he/she/it got to do with this?
15:08:49 <AnMaster> I actually don't know Iki Piki's gender. Not sure if the question makes sense at all...
15:09:10 <ehird> [15:07] AnMaster: as in: IxIpII vs IxIpIxI where
15:09:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I hit enter too early yes
15:10:02 <ehird> male, says irregularwebcomic.wikia
15:10:02 <ehird> Iki Piki is a jack-of-all-trades. Well, some. Like diplomacy, and demolitions. He sees no contradiction in these professions. He also has a passing knowledge of xenobiology, law, and nuclear physics. If you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, Iki's your man! He prefers plastic explosive for demolition purposes, and chews gum. He hardly ever gets these confused.
15:10:19 <AnMaster> THERE IS A irregularwebcomic.wikia ‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽
15:10:45 <ehird> [AnMaster has an aneurysm]
15:10:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: the cast page uses "He" for him. also, "If you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, Iki's your man!"
15:11:26 <ehird> if you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, she's your man!
15:11:55 <oerjan> also there is DMM's sf roleplaying setting which he comes from ...
15:12:04 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:13:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes I know about the source. What about it?
15:13:21 <oerjan> on dangermouse.net somewhere
15:13:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: well it probably has more about his species
15:14:20 <AnMaster> I thought you meant... never mind
15:15:57 <ehird> gah i have an urge to write forth but no application for it
15:16:01 <oerjan> http://www.dangermouse.net/gurps/amber/sjgaliens.html
15:17:13 <oerjan> "Pachekki are ambisexual, switching between exclusively female and male roles at random every few days."
15:17:31 <ehird> maybe the FAQ changes every few days
15:19:08 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
15:19:12 <GregorR-L> Aug 06 09:57:05 <ehird> oklopol: int main(void) { extrn cons; auto a; a=(cons 1 2); return 0; }
15:19:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: stop that bouncing!
15:19:39 <GregorR-L> I just bounced in a car from one locality to another :P
15:19:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: get mobile interwebs
15:20:22 <GregorR-L> And using the intarwebs while driving = not generally considered a good idea
15:20:44 <GregorR-L> Whereas wearing Gregor's super-awesome rule 110 tie = BEST IDEA EVARS
15:21:13 <ehird> buy it for me and I will
15:22:51 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> Whereas wearing Gregor's super-awesome rule 110 tie = BEST IDEA EVARS <-- picture
15:23:15 <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/rule_110_tie-151701718082685707
15:24:26 <GregorR-L> Hahah, much more positive responses today :P
15:24:35 <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 // I have rule 30 too! X-P
15:25:06 <Pthing> why are the colours so awful
15:25:15 <ehird> because gregor has terrible fashion sense!
15:25:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: make a transparent tie
15:25:32 <ehird> i'd so fucking buy a transparent tie
15:25:50 <Pthing> or dark grey and light grey
15:25:51 <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 // YOU GUYS ARE LAME
15:25:57 <Pthing> it'd look like a real tie, not a clown tie
15:26:04 <GregorR-L> I would never buy a tie that wasn't bright and gaudy :P
15:26:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: But that's just a black tie.
15:26:14 <ehird> I bet it'd print as the same colour.
15:26:25 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 // YOU GUYS ARE LAME <-- it is black on black?
15:26:39 <GregorR-L> The difference isn't even that subtle
15:26:56 <AnMaster> it is? I blame my monitor then
15:27:11 <ehird> i have a high-quality colour-calibrated display and it's smudgy black
15:27:20 <AnMaster> right, if I look at it at an extreme angel I can see the grey
15:27:34 <GregorR-L> And I have a crappo MacBook and it's ultra-visible X_X
15:27:44 <Deewiant> I have a probably-crap-quality probably-non-calibrated display and it's clearly grey on black
15:27:55 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, there you go. To *BAD* monitor to show it properly
15:28:08 <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
15:28:25 <GregorR-L> Anyway, I don't care, as that's a lame tie no matter what shade of grey I use. Except for white maybe.
15:28:28 <ehird> But my pre-calibrated matte IPS apple display says it's smudges on black, so it's smudges on black.
15:28:37 <ehird> White is the best shade of gray
15:28:40 <AnMaster> ehird, except it will be indistinguishable (SP‽) from green such
15:28:52 <ehird> AnMaster: physically yes
15:29:07 <GregorR-L> And people who don't wear brightly-colored ties are SO LAMESAUCE.
15:29:23 <GregorR-L> My tie is cyan. And I'm wearing a purple shirt. RIGHT NOW.
15:29:46 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, I'm glad to say this is only text chat
15:29:54 <GregorR-L> (Maybe a bit closer to magenta? Yeah, I'll go with magenta)
15:30:02 <AnMaster> aren't cyan/purple like complement colours?
15:30:15 <oerjan> `addquote <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
15:30:21 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
15:30:45 <AnMaster> does anyone ever use that thing to *display* the quotes?
15:30:56 <oerjan> i think i've seen it done
15:31:03 <HackEgo> 61|<fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
15:31:12 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
15:31:28 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
15:31:36 <HackEgo> 10|<oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
15:31:49 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
15:31:52 <AnMaster> I don't understand the context
15:31:56 <HackEgo> 26|<FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._.
15:32:04 <ehird> well that's a good quote except it isn't funny
15:32:06 <HackEgo> 19|<Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom
15:32:08 <oerjan> ehird: where the nazis won the war but lost their grammar
15:32:14 <HackEgo> 54|<lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
15:32:26 <HackEgo> 43|<ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
15:32:31 <ehird> YOU HAVE STARTED A REVOLUTION
15:33:38 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
15:33:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh? what ^style is it?
15:33:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
15:34:09 <HackEgo> 3|<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
15:34:27 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
15:34:29 <Slereah> !swedish riondgdunh_y"_'"'jigrjhiuyyè_jiy(h'n'j-i'uj-_y(ijhrt,et,nkprj'j-'-i"j
15:34:45 <HackEgo> 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
15:34:46 <Slereah> ^swedish riondgdunh_y"_'"'jigrjhiuyyè_jiy(h'n'j-i'uj-_y(ijhrt,et,nkprj'j-'-i"j
15:34:52 <oklopol> what's wrong with low-gravity porn
15:34:57 <EgoBot> reeundgdoonh_y"_'"'jeegrjhiooyyè_jeey(h'n'j-i'ooj-_y(ijhrt,it,nkprj'j-'-i"j
15:35:06 <ehird> oklopol: there are a negative amount of things wrong with it
15:35:12 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
15:35:21 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
15:35:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, nothing. just fail to see in what way it is better than the normal styff
15:35:25 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
15:35:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Everything is better in low-gravity
15:35:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: well you can have sex while airborne
15:35:40 <ehird> (except earth-like gravity)
15:35:51 <ehird> i wonder if anyone's had sex on a vomit comet
15:35:56 <ehird> like maybe trazjillionaires
15:36:14 <HackEgo> 21|<pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, you know the rest.
15:36:18 <HackEgo> 3|<Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
15:36:19 <HackEgo> 47|<augur> augur: pretty true.
15:36:22 <HackEgo> 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
15:36:26 <oklopol> people have had sex in no-gravity, at least
15:36:39 <HackEgo> 11|<SimonRC> TODO: sex life
15:36:52 <oklopol> ehird: i think a millionnaire went up with his wife
15:36:52 <HackEgo> 6|<Keiya> I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men.
15:37:03 <HackEgo> 15|<Lil`Cube> wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? <Quas_NaArt> No. They all go by stage names.
15:37:11 <HackEgo> 16|<Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
15:37:15 <ehird> oklopol: see, i guessed that!
15:37:20 <HackEgo> 48|<oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that.
15:37:20 <ehird> though i can't imagine the press release
15:37:26 <HackEgo> 51|* Dylan devides by Zorro
15:37:42 <oklopol> ehird: afair nasa wanted to observe, for science, maybe just an urban legend though
15:37:43 <ehird> "MAXIMILLION TYCOON, the charitable millionaire, today had sexual intercourse in zero-gravity with his wife."
15:37:51 <ehird> AnMaster: he's not in here.
15:37:57 <ehird> nor is Madelon, Lil`Cube or Quas_NaArt
15:38:22 <AnMaster> is the bot in more than one channel?
15:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and what is this sine I heard about before
15:39:46 <AnMaster> http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:XbSX6_ILf8IJ:creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Sine+%2Bsine+irc+network&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk <-- that?
15:39:54 <AnMaster> google cache because the real page was so slow to load
15:40:01 <ehird> no, that's a different sgeo and dylan.
15:40:39 <AnMaster> "If you would like to visit Sine, you are most welcome. Ask anyone in the above list for its address." <-- why so secret
15:40:56 <ehird> yeah being most welcome and able to ask for the address sure is secret
15:41:06 <ehird> we're talking illuminati-level here
15:41:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: spammers don't ask
15:41:53 <ehird> http://www.whereiwrite.org/delany.php i thought this was a zero-gravity writing place
15:45:42 <ehird> argh i love forth and smalltalk too much
15:46:42 <ehird> parse-word HELLO cr type cr
15:51:00 <ehird> i love how you can add syntax and parsers to forth (same thing) in a few words
15:52:46 <pikhq> I love how these pants are INEXPLICABLY 1 INCH SMALLER AROUND THE WASTE THAN EVERY OTHER PAIR I OWN
15:53:12 <ehird> : hello ." Hello, " parse-word type ." !" ; ok
15:53:12 <ehird> hello world Hello, world! ok
15:53:13 <ehird> : test hello world ;
15:53:13 <ehird> :3: Undefined word
15:53:18 <ehird> have to learn how to do compile words
15:54:44 <fizzie> The ct style is built with our VariKN toolkit, but it's from a really small data, so...
15:54:52 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
15:55:00 <ehird> fungot: It's funny, because ct is the worst style.
15:55:00 <fungot> ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
15:55:07 * pikhq wears changéd pants
15:55:11 <ehird> Another "he's a tricycle"
15:55:50 <oerjan> pikhq: length contraction. it's a relativistic effect.
15:55:59 <fizzie> Well, there's not that much text in it. And there are two very nice model size control parameters to tweak, I just haven't tweaked them for fungot use.
15:55:59 <fungot> fizzie: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
15:56:40 <ehird> fungot: no, that's taboo, bits can't mingle with bits
15:56:40 <fungot> ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
15:56:43 <ehird> (oh man that was a terrible pun!)
15:56:54 <ehird> every single element
15:56:57 <pikhq> Rupert Murdoch announces that he will be charging for the site of every news company he owns.
15:57:06 <ehird> fizzie: I note that it's saying the exact same line a lot
15:57:17 <pikhq> ehird: I was having trouble with IP last night.
15:57:25 <ehird> pikhq: older than that
15:58:46 <oerjan> pikhq: you may be experiencing time dilation as well, i suppose
16:02:26 <oklopol> i dropped my cool-drink, but luckily i caught it.
16:03:19 <oerjan> ehird: no, not _that_ cool
16:03:41 <oerjan> if it makes a *crink*, it's frozen, not a drink
16:03:51 <ehird> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crink pick one!
16:03:57 <fizzie> It's probably because the fungot generation code uses the longest-length n-grams it finds. Optimally it should use the backoff weights also explicitly in the model, but I don't have support for that in the Funge code.
16:03:57 <fungot> fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much, much strong guy!
16:05:46 <oklopol> so, has anyone seen a decent definition on urbandictionary
16:05:59 <oklopol> i mean they have "print this on a mug", what the fuck is that about
16:06:03 <ehird> yes, of coonpickrobber
16:06:25 <oklopol> print this random crap someone wrote high as a humper on a mug
16:06:55 <ehird> oklopol: what should i code in forth
16:07:40 <pikhq> ehird, a Haskell compiler.
16:07:57 <oklopol> i dunno.......................
16:08:12 <oklopol> ehird: coonpickrobber is not on ud
16:09:00 <oklopol> anyway gotta go read some totally crink shit
16:10:23 <ehird> "I have never edited Wikipedia because I'm afraid that an admin will just revert it and then hack me and my family via my IP address. How many times a day would you say you do this?"
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16:22:47 <ehird> ?0?%p?0&0N%D??0?=/?&?0? ???Y??0?%??0DA?0??0?%0S0&&0?%??0&&0P
16:22:53 <ehird> looks like embedded machine code to me!
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16:26:05 * ehird implements the rationals in Forth
16:26:49 <ehird> hmm Q/ or /Q I wonder
16:27:20 <ehird> I need to distinguish the operation Q/Q→Q and Z/Z→Q
16:32:45 <GregorR-L> I actually managed to make http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 with absolutely no cognition of any possible implications of having pink triangles all over one's tie :P
16:33:07 <ehird> you must now wear it
16:36:05 <ehird> hey one of his goals IS flamboyancy!
16:45:13 <AnMaster> is that related to floating flames? ~
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16:46:28 <AnMaster> that would be flambuoyancy though!
16:46:52 <AnMaster> just a single letter difference...
16:50:40 <ehird> so I just invented the single language better than smalltalk
16:51:38 <ehird> it's smalltalk, except you can intercept it at ... sort-of-compile time
16:52:04 <ehird> ok that could actually become a shitfest :P
16:52:52 <ehird> GregorR-L: that's probably valid D.
16:53:18 <ehird> it probably invokes a template at run-time from a pointer with a recursion limit of 7
16:53:25 <ehird> then includes it in the current string
16:54:24 <ehird> I wonder why smalltalk doesn't have list syntax, it's really annoying
16:55:16 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/558.html <-- :D (yes I'm archive re-reading)
16:56:13 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/559.html ;; this annoys me too
16:56:14 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/570.html <-- some oerjan-esque puns there.
16:57:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, but I still laughed out loud at them
16:58:52 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/564.html ;; worst comic I ever read
16:59:03 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/591.html <-- horrible pun again
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17:01:17 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/617.html <-- :DDD
17:01:48 <oklopol> i'll answer when the page loads
17:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, give me a unicode square rotated 45 degrees. So it looks somewhat like <> but more square
17:02:51 <oklopol> WHY DO I KEEP COMING BACK HERE I WAS SUPPOSED TO GO
17:03:07 <oklopol> yeah unicode slave start digging
17:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: you eman a diamond
17:03:26 <AnMaster> I wouldn't know what plane to look in at all
17:03:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well, yeah, square diamond
17:03:57 <AnMaster> not like an *actual* diamond, which is often quite different in shape
17:05:09 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrosomatoglyph
17:07:45 <ehird> Q: what did they call the new word about sex
17:08:37 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/716.html
17:08:54 <AnMaster> ehird, is that from that wp page?
17:09:03 <ehird> no i just made it up, it' shilarious
17:09:07 <ehird> also why would cyberspace be bad
17:09:20 <ehird> AnMaster: neologism
17:09:31 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jism
17:09:43 <ehird> it's the best joke ever
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17:17:28 <GregorR-L> ?Cool, are we putting punctuation before sentences now
17:18:15 <oerjan> i don't see the difference
17:18:45 <GregorR-L> ,'.Oh were putting ALL punctuation before
17:19:13 <ehird> ?'Its like: ,'dont kay
17:19:23 <GregorR-L> ?',Oh its supposed to be in reverse order
17:20:07 <ehird> .:Asztal 'Its complicated
17:20:27 <ehird> .:Asztal Whenever you go to type a punctuation ,character put it at the start of the attached word or sentence
17:21:10 <nornalbion> ?,Oh does it depend on the meaning of the punctuation
17:21:44 <ehird> !But of course ?We 'couldnt have it being simple ,now could we
17:22:28 <GregorR-L> `echo is a word with a grave accent
17:22:30 <HackEgo> is a word with a grave accent
17:23:03 <ehird> .'Im pretty sure this is distracting me from asking the -allimportant questions such as ""?Who let you in, ""?Who are you and ""?Did you sacrifice goats or sheep
17:23:16 <ehird> .'Im pretty sure this is distracting me from asking the -allimportant questions such as ,""?Who let you in ""?Who are you and ""?Did you sacrifice goats or sheep
17:23:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("'Always be careful about your apostrophes").
17:24:29 <ehird> that took me like ten seconds to get
17:25:30 <ehird> .:nornalbion 'Im tempted to charge you for question -noncompliance but 'Im pretty sure we 'dont have a law against that
17:25:55 <ehird> ().Fun :challenge say ""'pataphysics with this method
17:35:54 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/258.html ← oh law
17:39:51 <Slereah> Hamlet makes me think of a small ham
17:47:34 <pikhq> Slereah: I read that as "Hamlet makes me think of a small man".
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17:53:52 <impomatic> Did you see the Brainfuck synthesizer yet? http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/06/a-brainfuck-synthesizer/
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18:05:10 <pikhq> Just saw it a few minutes ago. Not bad.
18:06:09 <oklopol> http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/06/a-brainfuck-synthesizer/ <<< i did this like a year or two ago
18:06:35 <oklopol> who doesn't come up with that after knowing both brainfuck and how sound works
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18:07:17 <oklopol> (didn't really read it yet, may be more sophisticated :P)
18:08:26 <pikhq> It takes notes and generates tones.
18:08:39 <pikhq> It's not very sophisticated: it's his first non-trivial Brainfuck.
18:09:54 <ehird> omg sopier are gonna made an orangered envelope soap, that's like 500x better than the alien
18:10:02 <ehird> also i never really grasped pcm
18:10:11 <impomatic> It looks like he's planing to write a non-trivial program in 500 different languages.
18:10:48 <pikhq> Not necessarily one a day, but yeah.
18:10:52 <GregorR-L> He should, instead, write a non-trivial programming language every day, with the interpreter written in the previous language :P
18:10:58 <ehird> dunno if i'd be happy using so much of my time
18:11:03 <impomatic> Every other day I think. It says 500 in 3 years.
18:11:06 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That would be win.
18:11:21 <oklopol> GregorR-L: and optimize the old ones so that the whole chain runs smoothly
18:11:24 <impomatic> Yeah, and then cascade the interpreters so he's got a tower of 500 :-)
18:11:32 <ehird> http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/01/500-programming-languages-python/ gee, a brainfuck interpreter
18:11:36 <ehird> that's non-trivial?!
18:13:09 <pikhq> ehird: Hear, hear.
18:13:28 <pikhq> Especially since the interpretation consists of compiling to Python and then executing it.
18:14:13 <oklopol> sound much less trivial to me, because of indentation
18:14:37 <pikhq> oklopol: ... Indentation is not hard to do.
18:15:03 <pikhq> He's got like 2.5 extra lines of code going into it.
18:15:15 <oklopol> well no, but you can't just s/// is up because of it
18:15:38 <oklopol> right, i'm just saying that 2.5 makes it seem harder than making a brainfuck interp to me, then again i've written hundreds of those
18:15:58 <ehird> oklopol: but consider
18:16:10 <ehird> you need to find the matching ] and [
18:16:21 <ehird> you just output a constant string and indent++
18:16:26 <ehird> and the same with indent-- when you hit a ]
18:16:51 <oklopol> yeah, okay, maybe it's tons easier than interpreting
18:17:24 <pikhq> And append ' '*indent to each line produced from s//.
18:17:28 <oklopol> i mean writing a brainfuck interp without parsing is actually surprisingly error prone
18:17:33 <fizzie> I don't suppose any of the .fi people (other than ineiros, that is) is doing the Assembly thing.
18:17:51 <oklopol> fizzie: is an assembly coming up? :)
18:18:04 <fizzie> The yearly one. You know.
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18:18:33 <fizzie> Actually I guess it's twice a year nowadays.
18:18:38 <oklopol> pop culture always escapes me
18:18:43 <oklopol> anyway what assembly thing
18:19:09 <Deewiant> The other one is assembly winter, which is a bit different
18:19:15 <Deewiant> And no, I don't do that thing.
18:19:24 <fizzie> oklopol: It has a website, www.assembly.org.
18:19:43 <oklopol> oh by doing the assembly thing did you just mean being there?
18:20:00 <oklopol> i thought there was like some big competition everyone knew about
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18:24:04 <ehird> i mean doesn't assembly have bunches
18:24:26 <oklopol> yes, but i thought there was one "the competition", because fizzie said "the assembly thing"
18:25:08 <oklopol> but that was pretty stupid of me
18:25:48 <fizzie> The thing is just to exist; those competitions are then, I don't know, some sort of sub-things.
18:27:06 <oklopol> couldn't have put it better myself
18:27:37 <ehird> `addquote <fizzie> The thing is just to exist
18:27:46 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
18:30:36 <HackEgo> 36|<Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
18:30:51 <ehird> there's no i in individuality
18:31:21 <oklopol> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD
18:31:59 <GregorR-L> Having achieved goal #1, GOAL #2: Profit!
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18:40:47 <impomatic> I wanted to go to assembly about 15 years ago, but never got around to it.
18:43:01 <fizzie> I've been doing this yearly since I think 1996 (or '97; and with the exception of 2002 or something) and every year I sort-of decide it's not worth it.
18:43:47 <ehird> the testosterone levels at assembly must be ridiculous
18:55:05 <fizzie> There's not much to do here today, and it's a work-day tomorrow, so.
18:55:19 <ehird> http://www.osnews.com/story/21952/Haiku_Alpha_Just_a_Decision_Away
18:55:21 <ehird> I don't believe it!
18:56:33 * ehird wonders how best to handle an argument-neutral function without syntax in smalltalk elegantly
18:56:42 <ehird> (m gcd: n) doesn't seem right
19:17:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, what are you doing then
19:19:35 <fizzie> I had a bit of x86 assembler to write, but it would be too antisocial, and this laptop is a PowerPPC.
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21:17:17 * ehird decides to write a bf interp in forth
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21:17:26 <ehird> this is what boredom does to you!
21:17:52 -!- k has changed nick to Guest42650.
21:18:11 <ehird> i was about to say something about your name and great communicational difficulties
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21:18:55 <mycroftiv> ironically, in my native language, 'Guest42650' is actually how we say 'good morning' so its 6 of one, half dozen of the other
21:18:55 <kar8nga> well, sometimes the connection is a bit spooky ...
21:19:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: is your native language IRC? :P
21:19:25 <mycroftiv> yes, 'internet bullshit' is indeed my native language
21:19:34 <ehird> quite so good chap
21:20:45 <ehird> mycroftiv: btw you expressed interest in the os; design/coding should be underway by next month or thereabouts
21:20:48 <ehird> at least a first prototype
21:21:04 <ehird> probably i'll become a hermit and come back with a new love of the true languages PHP and FORTRAN
21:21:15 <ehird> PHP for the lower-level, FORTRAN for everything else
21:21:28 <mycroftiv> actually isnt fortran a fine langauge nowadays?
21:21:59 <mycroftiv> maybe its 'too rich' because it supports too much stuff but i thought you could write just about any style of code you wanted in it now
21:22:03 <ehird> depends how you define fine
21:22:24 <mycroftiv> well, its not all UPPERCASE GOTO any more
21:22:36 <ehird> PHP is multi-paradigm too
21:23:47 <mycroftiv> even I won't say anything on behalf of PHP, since pre-plan 9 I (shudder) did php+mysql stuff
21:24:04 <ehird> my first real language was php at 8
21:24:12 <ehird> took a long time to recover from that
21:24:38 <mycroftiv> i started with BASIC on an Apple ][ at age 5, also LOGO - I knew at the time that LOGO was better conceptually, also :)
21:24:59 <mycroftiv> of course, i also ended up writing a lot more lines of BASIC code because it gave you more control over the system...and thus we see the classic dichotomy
21:25:43 <ehird> to hell with that dichotomy, no reason why you can't expose hardware as part of a high-level system :)
21:26:24 <mycroftiv> i know, its a dichotomy created by bad practices and over hasty 'gold rush' architecture, its not fundamental
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21:33:29 * ehird realises he has no idea how to make a growing array in forth without manually writing realloc
21:33:39 <ehird> guess i'll do that
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21:40:56 <pikhq> Writing an OS in Forth, ehird?
21:41:14 <ehird> forth core and smalltalk upper layer
21:41:20 <ehird> with the smalltalk compiler written in forth
21:41:30 <ehird> but not right now, no
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21:41:42 <pikhq> Just writing in Forth, then.
21:47:55 <Sgeo> ..you can't run Qt applications in Windows without a commercial license?
21:48:42 <Sgeo> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
21:48:52 <Sgeo> "(The windows version was tested for all but Eric3, which was tested on Linux. Eric3 is based on Qt, which basically means you can't run it on Windows unless you've shelled out $$$ for a commerical Qt license, since there is no GPL version of Qt for Windows. Yes, there's Qt Free, but that's not exactly production-ready software.) "
21:48:56 <ehird> Looks very, oh, 2005.
21:49:05 <ehird> "not exactly production ready"
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21:51:19 <pikhq> ehird: He is referring to the attempted port of Qt3/X11 to Win32.
21:51:38 <ehird> http://web.mit.edu/qt/www/freeeditions.html
21:52:29 <Sgeo> "Qt Free" links to http://qtwin.sourceforge.net/index.php/Main_Page
21:53:01 <ehird> Q... what a terrible name
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22:27:21 <Sgeo> What is #esoteric 's opinion on Pyjamas?
22:27:54 <ehird> ..............um.................?
22:28:04 <ehird> They're, uh, comfy?
22:28:12 <Sgeo> http://pyjs.org/
22:28:21 <ehird> Of course. How could I possibly have not known.
22:28:36 <ehird> Yay, it's another "let's make shitty, un-web applications that run in a browser."
22:28:44 <ehird> After all, users are scared of (a) hypertext, (b) native applications.
22:29:11 <ehird> "javascript, a low-level alien language with weird complexities"
22:29:22 <ehird> Well this guy sounds like an idiot!
22:29:33 <ehird> "And, as you are writing in a much higher level language than Javascript"
22:29:43 <ehird> JAVASCRIPT HAS PROTOTYPE-BASED OOP AND ITS MAIN INSPIRATION WAS LISP
22:29:48 <ehird> PYTHON IS BASED ON THE TEACHING LANGUAGE ABC
22:29:50 <ehird> YOU ARE RETAAAAAAAAAAAAARDED
22:29:50 <pikhq> ... Javascript, low-level?
22:30:12 <pikhq> I've seen complaints about Javascript before, but "low-level"?
22:30:43 <ehird> Is Pyjamas a bird or a plane?
22:30:43 <ehird> How come you can run python, then?
22:30:44 <ehird> You can't: browsers only support javascript. So, all source code - libraries and applications - are translated into pure javascript. No python is left. at all. Otherwise, it wouldn't work, would it?
22:30:46 <pikhq> The libraries for it aren't all that good, but that doesn't make something low-level.
22:30:46 <ehird> How does it work, then?
22:30:48 <ehird> It's magic. smoke. mirrors. the usual stuff.
22:30:58 <ehird> i would very much like this person to die
22:31:26 <ehird> Watch the Javascript Console.
22:31:27 <ehird> Watch the Javascript Console.
22:31:27 <ehird> Watch the Javascript Console.
22:31:27 <ehird> Did we say, and emphasise enough, that you need to watch the Javascript Console?
22:31:27 <ehird> You need to watch the javascript console.
22:31:27 <ehird> You need to watch the javascript console because that is where runtime javascript errors are shown. Most web applications are written so badly that the errors are usually silently ignored by browsers, so as not to frighten users. As a developer, you cannot ignore the errors (not if you expect to actually be able to write an app, that is...)
22:31:43 <pikhq> ehird: He claims it lets you do "declarative programming".
22:31:59 <pikhq> Yes... Because Python is what I think of when I think declarative programming...
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22:32:57 <ehird> def getBodyElement():
22:32:57 <ehird> JS(""" return $doc.body; """)
22:33:00 <ehird> string templating in js
22:33:03 <ehird> it doesn't get much better than this
22:33:06 <ehird> that or he actually named it $doc
22:33:12 <ehird> $ is for shorthand functions, stoopid
22:34:14 <pikhq> ehird: I still can't believe he thinks Javascript is low-level.
22:34:26 <pikhq> I vote we replace Javascript with Forth, and let him ponder. :P
22:34:42 <Sgeo> Where does it say, exactly, that he thinks JS is low-level
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22:35:17 <ehird> Sgeo: Maybe my direct quotes are just too vague huh
22:35:20 <ehird> You might have to scan whole sentences
22:35:25 <pikhq> "And, as you are writing in a much higher level language than Javascript, it's a darn sight easier."
22:35:37 <ehird> Anyway the FUNDAMENTAL NATURE of these toolkits SUCK
22:35:41 <pikhq> Also, "Javascript, a low-level alien language with weird complexities".
22:35:45 <ehird> If you are on the web, MAKE A WEB-LIKE DESIGN.
22:35:52 <ehird> MAKE IT *HYPERTEXT*, DAMMIT!
22:35:59 <ehird> DON'T emulate a stupdi widget GUI!
22:36:04 <nescience> you guys know lots of languages right? you should totally concoct a language where each command is written in a language selected based on the hash of the previous command.
22:36:04 <ehird> You are missing the point!
22:36:43 <pikhq> ehird: What they want is, essentially, Java applets.
22:36:55 <ehird> And you don't want Java applets. Ever. :P
22:36:57 <pikhq> (in other words: vomit)
22:37:32 <pikhq> ehird, sure. But you must admit that Java applets are a *significantly* better tool for what they want than AJAX.
22:37:39 <pikhq> (because it's at least *meant* to do that)
22:38:00 <ehird> Anyway, Sgeo, if you use it I will stab your heart out with a fork.
22:38:03 <pikhq> Unlike AJAX, which is, well, a massive pile of hacks.
22:38:47 <ehird> It's just an http client mechanism exposed to javascript.
22:38:58 <ehird> Hate the playa, not the game :P
22:39:12 <pikhq> I should specify further: the common usage of AJAX is a massive pile of hacks.
22:39:38 <ehird> incidentally, can i digress for a second and say that mobile internet plans really supersuck?
22:39:39 <ehird> £15/mo for 5GB, ffs
22:39:40 <pikhq> Instead of vaguely dynamic hypertext, we get applications! ... In a language meant for vaguely dynamic hypertext!
22:40:00 <ehird> orange are apparently offering unmetered broadband… between midnight and 9am…
22:40:03 <ehird> subject to "fair usage policy"
22:40:15 <pikhq> GregorR-L: We're not hating on JS. We're hating on people who believe that its abuse is a good software platform. ;)
22:40:19 <ehird> It costs less than that for 8mbit residential internet PLUS PHONE SERVICE.
22:40:31 <ehird> Heck, it costs less than that for 24mbit internet.
22:40:41 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yes, but you don't believe that its abuse is a good software platform.
22:40:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: You think that its abuse is fun to play with.
22:41:26 <Sgeo> What's Google Web Toolkit for? Does it get the same scorn as Pyjamas?
22:41:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's a Java -> Javascript compiler.
22:42:07 <Sgeo> So, what's so bad about Pyjamas compared to GWT?
22:42:16 <HackEgo> Like GWT, pyjamas involves the translation of the application and libraries ( including UI widgets and DOM classes) to Javascript and the packaging up of ... \ [15]Pyjamas Book - [16]Getting started - [17]Features - [18]Showcase
22:42:26 <pikhq> The author is more retarded than the authors of GWT.
22:42:34 <GregorR-L> Presumably Pyjamas is from Python? So it's dynamic -> dynamic.
22:42:55 <pikhq> Also, Pyjamas is not actually compiling Python to Javascript.
22:43:02 <Sgeo> Pyjamas is language I do know quite well -> Language I don't know that well
22:43:08 <pikhq> It's creating Python programs that generate Javascript.
22:43:14 -!- ehird_ has joined.
22:43:20 <pikhq> Erm. It's a libraries that lets you create ...
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22:43:33 <ehird_> Grumble grumble my grumble operating grumble system transparently-networked components grumble grumble
22:43:54 <ehird_> Pyjamas is not simply a Python→Javascript compiler
22:44:02 <ehird_> Fuckin' learn Javascript.
22:44:14 <ehird_> it is not acceptable to spew out crappy, bloated generated code.
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22:44:34 <GregorR-L> In my universe, it is always acceptable to spew crappy, bloated generated code.
22:44:37 <pikhq> Javascript most reminds me of Plof, only somewhat less dynamic.
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22:44:43 <ehird_> GregorR: Can you fix jsmips not to spew about every filesystem access?
22:44:48 * Sgeo vaguely considers making a calculator in Pyjamas, just to see ehird's reaction
22:45:06 <GregorR-L> ehird_: It was for when I was on a SUPER-slow connection, so I wouldn't think "is this broken or just slow" :P
22:45:15 <ehird_> Sgeo: Uh, "congratulations, you can do stupid shit"?
22:45:27 <ehird_> GregorR-L: it doesn't seem to cache the FS well
22:45:30 <ehird_> ls is quite slow each time
22:45:33 <ehird_> although the notes stop appearing
22:45:55 <ehird_> I'm tempted to do an ARM emulator in js
22:46:18 <GregorR-L> Feel free to steal or not steal whatever you don't want or want, respectively, from JSMIPS.
22:46:57 <pikhq> I suggest at least taking the terminal emulation and ELF loader.
22:47:05 <pikhq> Possibly also the FS stuff.
22:47:12 <ehird_> also the terminal emulation isn't his
22:47:20 <ehird_> and I want to make a real display
22:47:21 <pikhq> He patched it, though.
22:47:32 <GregorR-L> Ahhh, you want a full ARM emulator.
22:47:45 <GregorR-L> Which is to say, you want something that will amazingly be EVEN SLOWER than JSMIPS.
22:48:00 <ehird_> compile code directly :<
22:48:24 * pikhq hasn't tried jsmips in 3.5
22:48:36 <pikhq> Let's see how much improvement we get from a JIT'ing Javascript.
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22:49:28 <ehird_> pikhq: i still have the faster js engine :>
22:50:24 <pikhq> I thought that Firefox 3.5 actually had a faster JS engine than Safari, though?
22:50:34 <ehird_> GregorR-L: what happened to jsmmix or whatever
22:50:43 <pikhq> IIRC, it's about on par with early releases of Chrome.
22:50:55 <ehird_> SquirrelFish Extreme... aka Nitro...
22:51:04 <GregorR-L> JS only guarantees 32-bit integers, so MMIX was godawfully slow 64-bit emulation everywhere.
22:51:31 <GregorR-L> JS has numbers which are stored as floats or integers depending on use.
22:51:37 <ehird_> that's not specified yet
22:51:50 <GregorR-L> And yet, EVERYBODY does it that way :P
22:52:05 <ehird_> GregorR-L: Yes, but I've never seen a JS engine that only does 32-bit integers
22:52:32 <GregorR-L> Do you mean "only" as in "and not 64-bit integers"?
22:52:46 <GregorR-L> Because I'm yet to find one that does 64-bit integers at all.
22:53:10 <ehird_> javascript:alert(2147483648);
22:53:47 <GregorR-L> Fairly certain that fits into a double.
22:54:37 <GregorR-L> Besides, the bitwise operations are all over 32-bit integers.
22:54:44 <ehird_> GregorR-L: gimme a number that doesn't
22:54:54 <GregorR-L> I'm at work, so no, I'm not going to poke around at that :P
22:55:11 <ehird_> hmm javascript:alert((2147483648<<1)>>1); DOES give 0 here
22:55:53 <pikhq> Jebus, that's slow.
22:56:00 <pikhq> Very spiffy, but slow.
22:56:59 <GregorR-L> Because 'vi' is quite usable here.
22:57:08 <pikhq> It took me a while just to get #!/bin/sh started.
22:57:34 <pikhq> How's the filesystem access work? AJAX to the server to fetch stuff?
22:57:42 <ehird_> [[Implanted RFID chips encoded with your genetic code which can then be verified with a simple genetic test using blood taken from a random spot on your body. Also implanted with it, a GPS tracking device so people will know where you are at if someone is trying to attempt identity theft which will leave a trail for investigators to follow if ever a crime is committed.
22:57:43 <ehird_> Just part of it, we could also have other redundant methods of checking, like finger print scans (I have one on my laptop) or retina, or just facial recognition software. All of this would be backed up by the GPS device, Audio/Visual surveillance and monitoring of internet and phone activity for data mining, should it become necessary.]]
22:57:47 <pikhq> Okay, that's why it's slow. XD
22:57:52 <ehird_> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgghhhhhhhhhh
22:58:00 <ehird_> we must kill this person post-haste
22:58:04 <ehird_> pikhq: it caches, so try the command again
22:58:18 <ehird_> oh "You do realize I've been joking this whole time, right? I thought it was obvious, but based on some people's reactions, I'm starting to get worried..."
22:58:37 <pikhq> ehird_: STABBY STABBY STABBY
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22:59:05 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Nice work, BTW.
22:59:27 <GregorR-L> I'm so many months past actually caring about JSMIPS :P
22:59:44 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Yes, I noticed.
22:59:59 <pikhq> 4 months since the last commit (except for the commit making it valid XHTML 1.1).
23:00:33 <GregorR-L> The XHTML 1.1 commit was one day after I installed a script that will harass me if it finds any non-compliant visible files on Codu :P
23:00:33 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Anyways. What userspace you running there? Few hacked up programs, or Busybox, or what?
23:01:16 <pikhq> So, classic UNIX, basically.
23:01:19 <GregorR-L> pikhq: busybox is too Linux-dependent. bash I got working once but it was slow (actually it'd probably be faster now)
23:02:38 * pikhq waits as ls fetches the entire contents of /bin/
23:03:55 <GregorR-L> Actually, what's dumb is my implementation of stat.
23:04:34 <pikhq> GregorR-L: But after that, I can play with everything!
23:04:54 <GregorR-L> Until something kills your console and you have to refresh ;)
23:05:13 <pikhq> Not worth it. I can play when I get high-speed Internets.
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23:25:20 <AnMaster> <pikhq> 4 months since the last commit (except for the commit making it valid XHTML 1.1).
23:27:43 <ehird_> i hope AnMaster eventually dedicates his life to annoying me
23:28:05 <ehird_> i'll become a zealot of not jumping off cliffs
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23:42:34 <Warrigal> Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your hats!
23:43:14 <ehird_> [spoiler]DONT HELP HIM[/spoiler]
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00:32:03 <ehird_> http://corefault.de/uploads/2009-07-31_140758_webgui.jpg
00:32:09 <ehird_> Do not put the baby in this book.
00:32:32 <Slereah> Did you droo a moustache on it
00:37:18 <ehird_> Apparently it's a university's admission book
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00:56:46 <Warrigal> I seem to kind of remember that book.
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01:47:40 <zzo38> Did you see that now I have a formatted IRC log too, for each channels, in HTML format?
01:48:16 <zzo38> Please other people can save the log too while I am not
01:49:12 <ehird_> zzo38: fyi it's considered incredibly bad taste to log channels without asking, in general
01:49:16 <ehird_> and often gets you banned
01:49:25 <zzo38> But they are my own channels that I created
01:49:47 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/
01:50:00 <zzo38> My projects are on IRCNET however, not Freenode
01:50:20 <ehird_> i'd join but I can't be bothered to connect to another server for the purpose
01:50:26 <zzo38> And do you know TheDailyWTF? I posted some FlogScript codes there too
01:50:34 <zzo38> You can view the logs without going to IRCNET
01:50:43 <ehird_> viewing logs != talking
01:51:18 <zzo38> And if you want the codes for the log module (it is a PHP module for PHIRC, and then a CRISC script also for automating set-up of logging on the channels)
01:51:59 <pikhq> Think you could learn a less awful language, like Perl, INTER
01:52:01 <zzo38> If they add support for modeless channels to Freenode then I might move the channels to Freenode
01:52:29 <ehird_> zzo38: why does it need to be modeless
01:52:52 <zzo38> TDWTF has "Programming Praxis" challenges where you post the codes in whatever way you want it posted, including your own way, I wanted to do code-golfing so I did.
01:53:20 <zzo38> There are a few other esoteric languages used there too
01:53:25 <ehird_> zzo38: why does it need to be modeless
01:53:26 <coppro> if I find the time, I'm doing this one in library-less INTERCAL
01:53:39 <zzo38> Because I want it modeless, that's why.
01:53:50 <ehird_> zzo38: so it being modeless trumps anyone actually talking there?
01:53:55 <ehird_> i'm not sure you understand what irc is for
01:54:00 <zzo38> Which one are you doing in library-less INTERCAL?
01:56:36 <zzo38> I also set my client to beep when anyone joins in that window, so I can be notified if someone joins. The titlebar also flashes whenever anything other than PING or ignored messages is received
02:00:42 <zzo38> Really, I don't know.
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02:12:27 <zzo38> There's an example of the logging software: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/PHIRC/20090806.html
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04:18:07 <Sgeo> !bf .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].+.-.++++++++++.>.<--.>.,+[,.]++.>[-]+++++++++++++++++.<++.>-------.>[-]+[[-].+..+++++++++.,,,.]++.-.-.++++++++++.
04:19:09 * Sgeo realizes that there's indication in there that it's PSOX
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04:28:50 <Sgeo> yourworldoftext.com/static
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05:49:31 * coppro just discovered PRIMARY
05:49:45 <pikhq> What, the prime material plane?
05:52:58 <coppro> namely that it lets you copy without the clipboard on intelligent applications
05:53:10 <coppro> so you can keep stuff clipboarded for later use
06:03:25 <coppro> select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere
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06:08:09 <pikhq> Yes, I'm very well aware of it.
06:08:51 <pikhq> A "clipboard" is a higher-level abstraction offered by the GTK+ and Qt toolkits.
06:09:04 <pikhq> Quite different from the X selection buffer that X has had for ages.
06:12:01 <coppro> well, they use the X selections in the same way, so all is happy
06:15:15 <pikhq> No, they don't. 100% completely different.
06:16:05 <pikhq> Not just a different buffer for things to be stored. The two are completely independent of each other.
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06:46:54 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yup.
06:51:37 <pikhq> I live in Missouri.
06:51:49 <pikhq> I used to live in Colorado.
06:52:01 <pikhq> Anyways, I'm going to the Missouri University of Science & Technology.
06:52:18 <pikhq> (which is to say, the only academically notable place in this entire state)
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10:39:56 <oklofok> well, first of all the word for "to slumber" is "uinua"
10:40:20 <augur> do i know finnish yet?
10:40:51 <oklofok> augur: i'd say you know most of it
10:40:53 <augur> someone should write that.
10:41:05 <augur> i want to see a language-learning site for coders.
10:41:22 <augur> something that isnt afraid to use theory-relevant stuff, too.
10:42:07 <augur> if you're a computational linguist, you'll learn it really quickly.
10:42:18 <augur> if youre just a coder or a linguist, rather quickly
10:42:28 <augur> and if youre neither, you wont learn it at all because you're dumb.
10:42:53 <augur> oklofok, do one for finnish.
10:43:08 <augur> but you ARE a coder!
10:43:36 <oklofok> but..............................
10:44:05 -!- oklofok has changed nick to okloput.
10:44:07 <augur> fizzie do you speak finnish fluently?
10:44:24 <okloput> it's funny because he lives in helsinki
10:44:40 <fizzie> I don't speak anything very fluently, but this IRC client text input box displays "fl" and "fi" as ligatures.
10:46:25 <fizzie> Whoops, where did that extra i come from.
10:46:47 <augur> fizzie, you should do it. seriously.
10:46:56 <augur> write it up using some formal grammar
10:47:13 <okloput> i've never seen the use of language learning sites, the only hard part is to learn the vocab, and there's no magic bullet for that; i mean there are tricks, sure, but it's still a fucking quadrillion word ride
10:47:33 <augur> grammar can be tricky in some languages
10:47:36 <okloput> once you learn the words, just read a few pages from a book and you'll know it all
10:47:37 <augur> it depends on the language, ofcourse
10:47:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have an affinity for writing things.
10:48:14 <augur> granted, a good grammar book written for smart readers can be condensed to a few dozen pages, for most stuff
10:48:16 <augur> but there are nuances
10:48:40 <augur> italian is relatively similar to english, but even so there need to be a bunch of specifications of the differences
10:48:43 <augur> odd differences too
10:48:54 <augur> ones that dont easily map to english
10:49:13 <okloput> i'm sure a very smart reader can guess the odd differences!
10:49:24 <augur> maybe from lots of practice!
10:49:52 <augur> there are a lot of things that would be simplified, tho, with just a simple formal treatment
10:50:19 <augur> so much of commonly used italian grammar could be condensed down to like two or three pages of tree diagrams and stuff
10:51:06 <okloput> i just know "noun adj", the rest comes naturally
10:51:18 <okloput> (i'm like totally fluent in italian)
10:51:20 <fizzie> Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already.
10:51:44 <augur> "head movement to T in for non-aux T's, object shift for non-3p.pl pronouns, optional WH movement with T-to-C"
10:51:48 <okloput> fizzie: right, then again my joke was, for some reason, completely missed by augur anyway
10:51:52 <augur> that describes a huge portion of the differences
10:52:13 <okloput> it's as if he doesn't know what a guy in turku could joke about in someone from helsinki
10:52:38 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Espoon_Tapiola_kesällä.jpg <3
10:53:55 <okloput> was about to say that was a goddamn sexy view, but when i saw the kids, i figured it might be a bit inappropriate
10:54:18 <augur> hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19
10:54:53 <augur> okloput, be my finnish boyfriend. ill pretend im 13
10:55:36 <okloput> 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider
10:56:11 <augur> okloput: and with smaller cocks.
10:57:15 <fizzie> Haven't you done a comparative study?
10:57:45 <okloput> i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years
10:58:06 <augur> you should fix this.
10:58:08 <okloput> actually i may have seen tons in the sauna
10:58:25 <augur> cocks are lovely things.
10:58:28 <Slereah> But not in erection, though
10:58:34 <Slereah> Unless you went to that kind of sauna
10:58:35 <augur> especially uncut cocks, which im sure finnish cocks are.
10:58:51 <okloput> Slereah: i'm not sure i've seen another man's erection irl, ever
10:59:15 <okloput> ...wait that's another lie, there was this one dude once who started stroking his in the sauna when i was a kid
10:59:36 <augur> okloput, if i build a sauna, will you come sit in it? :o
10:59:39 <okloput> true story, my shortest swimming trip ever
11:00:22 <okloput> i have nothing against naked mixed gender sauna with strangers
11:00:46 <Slereah> augur's sauna won't be mixed genders
11:00:48 <augur> how about hot sauna sex?
11:01:11 <augur> slereah: well it could be. i dont care if girls are there. as long as i dont have to fuck them what do i care
11:01:14 <okloput> sauna is not so good for sex
11:01:22 <augur> you're not going to the right saunas
11:01:41 <Slereah> Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke
11:01:43 <augur> well we could turn off the heat and generate some ourselves, so
11:03:05 <okloput> i think i need to go to the shoppe now
11:03:22 <fizzie> I think you're doing something wrong if you generate ~80 degrees Celsius of body heat.
11:03:45 <augur> fizzie: or something very very right ;D
11:03:49 <okloput> Slereah: that, plus usually the seats are not very comfy, there are some technical difficulties
11:04:15 <fizzie> But they sell these special "sauna pillow" things.
11:04:25 <Slereah> Plus, augur, how do you want to get the horse in the sauna
11:04:26 <fizzie> We have one, I've never quite understood the point of it.
11:04:29 <okloput> but you can get interesting positions if you're not afraid to use the rail... well, assuming traditional finnish sauna blueprints
11:04:49 <augur> slereah: well we'll work on that
11:04:53 <fizzie> You also get interesting burns if something slips, I assume.
11:05:20 <fizzie> I knew a girl who sat on a sauna stove (is that what "kiuas" officially is) at the age of four or something.
11:05:39 <okloput> personally i'd love to install kiuas in the english language
11:05:56 <okloput> they already fucked up sauna in pronunciation
11:06:01 <fizzie> Sauna's already in there, why not all related paraphernalia.
11:06:17 <augur> its not said sooooooona in nglish
11:06:38 <augur> unless you're using that to mean the sound in the word "saw"
11:06:55 <okloput> he said it to me, the other finn
11:06:57 <fizzie> Well, yes, you have to read the "soooona" word like a Finn would, also.
11:07:16 <augur> i dont know how "ooooooooo" would be pronounced by a finn
11:07:29 <okloput> augur: o is always the "aw" thing
11:07:43 <okloput> finnish has the same vowels as lojban, except for y
11:07:50 <augur> i presume "sauna" is "sah-oo-nuh"?
11:07:56 <okloput> the lojban y is in finnish
11:09:26 <augur> well you cant really blame english speakers for doing it wrong
11:09:33 <augur> they adopt words using the spelling as a guide
11:09:37 <okloput> i can't, i was just making a joke.
11:09:43 <augur> but they use english pronunciation for the spelling
11:10:07 <augur> and au in english is finnish o
11:10:25 <fizzie> What I didn't know is that it's a verb too, according to Wiktionary.
11:10:29 <fizzie> "to sauna (third-person singular simple present saunas, present participle saunaing, simple past and past participle saunaed)"
11:10:41 <augur> almost every noun can be used as a verb in english
11:10:44 <fizzie> How are you saunaing today?
11:12:11 <fizzie> Soon shall be the time of the Great Saunification.
11:12:41 <okloput> augur: as a finn, i find that a natural way to abuse your language
11:13:04 <augur> saunification is grammatical, saunation isnt
11:13:09 <augur> saunation is just weird
11:14:08 <okloput> well it's from the verb saunate, which clearly has something to do with sauna
11:14:12 <fizzie> There's "tarnation", there should be "saunation".
11:14:22 <augur> saunate is a verb now?
11:14:25 <fizzie> What the saunation?! You haven't saunaed at all today?!
11:14:39 <augur> the phrase is "what in tarnation"
11:14:41 <fizzie> It's a bit like the smurfs do, except, you know, boiling heat.
11:14:55 <okloput> augur: it's not completely a verb.
11:15:12 <augur> "tarnation is also not from "tarnate"
11:15:15 <augur> its from "entire nation"
11:15:26 <okloput> i really don't try to make my purposefully horrible word bendings grammatical
11:15:42 <augur> theyre better when theyre grammatical but nonsensical
11:15:55 <okloput> that's what most finns say about my finnish bends
11:17:08 <okloput> so. what if you made childish porn
11:17:43 <augur> i think /you/ should make porn
11:18:03 <okloput> it's with girls, you wouldn't like it
11:18:09 <augur> as long as it has you in it :D
11:18:34 <okloput> i doubt i have anything left, and i probably wouldn't give it to you
11:20:26 <augur> alternatively spelled meanie
11:20:30 <augur> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meanie
11:20:31 <okloput> well what do you know it's an alternate spelling i haven't seen
11:20:55 <okloput> this was, though, exactly how i planned this conversation to go
11:21:06 <augur> with you being wrong?
11:21:26 <okloput> it was a clever ruse of mine
11:21:40 <okloput> you can't possibly remember what we were talking about, now
11:21:46 <okloput> because you got to be right
11:21:50 <okloput> and that's the best porn of all
11:22:01 <augur> the best porn of all is you naked
11:22:24 <okloput> seriously, i'm not *that* much above average hotness
11:24:09 <augur> and thats all that matters *.*
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13:56:54 <ehird> joy, a fucking stupid reddit post saying that apple should have an antitrust suit filed against them
13:57:09 <ehird> the rules that apply to MS do not apply to apple because THEY ARE PROTECTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE A MONOPOLY
13:57:23 <ehird> and for the last time hardware DRM isn't illegal!
13:59:30 <ehird> 22:03:25 <coppro> select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere
13:59:36 <ehird> you don't know about this?
14:00:33 <ehird> 02:44:07 <augur> fizzie do you speak finnish fluently?
14:01:17 <ehird> 02:51:20 <fizzie> Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already.
14:01:17 <ehird> that's what they want you to think
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:18 <augur> hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:22 <augur> or whatever
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:27 <okloput> when i was *18*
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:32 <augur> whatever
14:01:57 <ehird> 02:54:33 <augur> same thing
14:01:57 <ehird> from this we can conclude that 1=2
14:02:17 <okloput> and we can conclude from it that true is false, and therefore everything is true.
14:02:51 <ehird> 02:55:36 <okloput> 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider
14:02:51 <ehird> i'm gonna be like this as an adult?
14:03:10 <ehird> 02:57:45 <okloput> i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years
14:03:10 <ehird> i'm afraid to ask how much you know about people's cocks before 12
14:03:13 <okloput> well i was talking about girls
14:03:37 <okloput> ehird: a lot, because one of the subjects at school involved getting in the shower with guys.
14:03:47 <ehird> oh well that doesn't count
14:03:50 <ehird> that's just their fake penises
14:04:22 <ehird> 03:01:41 <Slereah> Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke
14:04:23 <ehird> BUT WHAT WAS STROKE? (A: Genitals.)
14:05:23 <ehird> also okloput i have this awesome mental image of saunas where it's physically impossible to see anything more than, say, 5cm in front of you
14:05:26 <ehird> please tell me it's true
14:06:05 <ehird> could make sex rather hard, unless you have a really tiny penis
14:06:07 <okloput> in most saunas, it's just dark
14:06:40 <okloput> well yes, probably, in a sauna
14:06:55 <okloput> because the seats are a few meters from the floor
14:07:11 <ehird> zero gravity sauna
14:07:39 <fizzie> There's also the whole savusauna thing, without a chimney.
14:07:41 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna#Smoke_sauna
14:07:48 <ehird> fizzie: that, in zero gravity
14:07:48 <okloput> sex in a zero-gravity sauna while having tea
14:07:57 <okloput> fizzie: in those, you can see 5cm
14:08:00 <ehird> s/sauna/smoke sauna/
14:08:06 <okloput> because there is no smoke in a smoke sauna
14:08:22 <okloput> because you'd die otherwise
14:08:35 <fizzie> The ones I've been to tend to be pretty black, though, and just generally dark too.
14:08:40 <ehird> sex in a fatal zero-gravity smoke sauna while having tea and coffee at the same time
14:08:43 <okloput> well yes, they are very dark
14:09:08 <okloput> ehird: that sounds pretty awesome, we should totally implement it
14:09:23 <ehird> right except i'm not too sure about the whole fatal part
14:09:31 <okloput> ...also lyly would work great as a loanword
14:09:45 <okloput> would probably beat kiuas in unpronounceability
14:11:14 <okloput> ehird: well right the fatal part may need some honing
14:11:30 <okloput> unless you want like a perfect final experience thing
14:11:57 <ehird> i'm thinking that dying of being in the same room as smoke is unpleasant
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14:25:47 <ehird> basically i think oxygen like
14:29:37 <fizzie> I don't think, I just ask the computer to think for me:
14:29:39 <fizzie> i think oxygen going "oh no", then? brilliant! who's driving it? maybe syntax-e identity in psyntax?
14:29:59 <fizzie> "Oxygen going 'oh no'" sounds like trouble ahead.
14:31:50 <ehird> RecursionRecursionRecursionRecursionButtcursion
14:38:39 <ehird> http://man.cat-v.org/plan_b/1/ego
14:39:30 <ehird> Cool, this "in-browser implementation of Python" chokes on class A(object): pass.
15:02:07 <ehird> http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/PwccqNBl5qtxvki3vTc7oo9no1_1280.png?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1249740096&Signature=iPL8Sjiw8BVkaPnSLT5dhf3vbU8%3D ;; Well, this is simple!
15:03:08 <ehird> "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?"
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15:35:14 <oerjan> <augur> its from "entire nation"
15:35:29 <oerjan> and here i assumed it was a euphemism for damnation
15:36:23 <pikhq> Be more amusing if it were a euphemism for euphemism.
15:37:36 <oerjan> i will take your word for that.
15:39:28 <oerjan> <ehird> from this we can conclude that 1=2
15:39:41 <oerjan> and from that we can deduce that bertrand russell is the pope.
15:40:01 <oerjan> (he did it himself, you know.)
15:40:10 <ehird> mope the pope tote
15:40:22 <pikhq> And from that we can deduce that the Pope is not really Catholic.
15:41:03 <ehird> oerjan: anyway that's clearly a bit off
15:41:10 <ehird> father son holy ghost
15:41:16 <ehird> so you'd want to be proving 1=3
15:41:18 <ehird> or rather infinity=3
15:41:39 <oerjan> ehird: i don't think the trinity entered the proof
15:44:10 <pikhq> ehird: n=succ(n), more like.
15:44:25 <ehird> Is that an infinite recursion of oral?
15:48:46 <oerjan> <ehird> "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?" <-- my first guess would be, "not in five seconds."
15:51:49 <pikhq> They've started opening unbranded "stealth cafés" in order to compete with local coffee shops.
15:52:25 <ehird> for one, it says starbucks all over, and there's tons of news about it; nobody's going to be "fooled"
15:52:39 <ehird> for the other, most reports from people who have actually been there suggest it isn't really a starbucks
15:52:49 <ehird> as in, business-wise it is, but coffee-wise it's better
15:52:57 <ehird> "inspired by starbucks"
15:53:02 <ehird> is some weird-ass wording
15:53:11 <pikhq> Though if it still has the shit coffee, not worth going.
15:53:50 <ehird> Uhh, NSFW: http://imgur.com/VJzZW.jpg
15:54:56 <ehird> More naked obama + unicorn than you could shake a horn at: http://wildammo.com/2009/07/27/unusual-paintings-of-obama-naked-with-unicorns/
15:55:37 <oerjan> is that Dr. House on the right?
15:56:08 <ehird> And Stalin on the left.
15:56:49 <oerjan> so where are the _usual_ paintings of obama naked with unicorns?
15:57:03 <ehird> I DON'T WANT TO KNOW
15:57:44 <ehird> My brain basically shut off with http://wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/obama-painting10.jpg
15:58:38 <ehird> the painter appears to be a right-winger
16:01:22 <ehird> obama's testicles are as of yet not painted.
16:01:27 <ehird> (i hope, at least.)
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16:31:10 <okloput> ehird: Is that an infinite recursion of oral? <<< what?
16:33:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: you there?
16:34:05 <okloput> oh oral, you mean like oral
16:34:16 <okloput> i assumed that was "or all", written in a condensed form
16:34:31 <okloput> meaning some well-known function
16:34:46 <ehird> okloput: well or all is just fold or, obviously
16:34:53 <ehird> so "or all" is a funny way of saying "any"
16:35:24 <okloput> exactly, kinda like your mother is
16:35:42 <ehird> my mother is indeed a funny way of saying any
16:36:13 <oerjan> okloput: we thus must consider the dual abbreviation of "and all"
16:36:48 * oerjan swats okloput for ruining the joke -----###
16:36:55 <ehird> andal is also known as all, okloput :P
16:37:49 <okloput> oerjan: sorry, i wasn't thinking.
16:38:06 <EgoBot> all or :: [[Bool]] -> Bool
16:38:20 <oerjan> EgoBot: you're a bit slow today
16:39:43 <pikhq> !haskell all or [[True,False],[False,True]]
16:39:55 <okloput> then again, anyand is even nicer
16:40:13 <oerjan> !haskell any and [[True,False],[False,True]]
16:41:14 <ehird> haha wow the LoseThos guy is even turning on the Loper OS guy, who praised it
16:41:18 <ehird> "I hope your code reads better than your prose:-)
16:41:19 <ehird> You ripped-off my name, asshole. LoseThos. http://www.losethos.com"
16:41:28 <ehird> i wonder how he ripped off his name
16:41:46 <ehird> "You just sound a little stilted. Nice vocabulary, but tone-down the arrogance.
16:41:46 <ehird> I can read fancy words. God makes riddles when he talks to me.
16:41:47 <ehird> [another god speak thing]
16:41:47 <ehird> Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am."
16:42:06 <ehird> The juxtaposition of "END displacing large servants" and "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." is hilarious.
16:42:28 <oerjan> ehird: some people's motivations seem just destined to remain riddles
16:42:50 <ehird> ridiculously insane
16:42:58 <ehird> got worse though, he was less crazy beforehand, slightly
16:42:59 <pikhq> I still love his theory that "finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction".
16:43:16 <ehird> if he keeps at this, uh
16:43:17 <okloput> doesn't seem like that's what his theory is
16:43:24 <ehird> I really think he needs serious psychiatric help
16:43:29 <pikhq> okloput: It's one of many theories he has.
16:43:39 <oerjan> ehird: there is no such thing as "just insane". insane just means anyone falling outside the very narrow region known as "normal", afaiac
16:43:51 <okloput> pikhq: seems like he's more saying no protection is fun for certain types of hacking
16:44:04 <ehird> okloput: really, don't try and justify the guy, it might seem ok on the surface
16:44:08 <ehird> but if you really read about it you'll go insane
16:44:09 <pikhq> "Finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction."
16:44:17 <ehird> oerjan: colloquial language in your face
16:44:23 <ehird> pikhq: that's true actually
16:44:27 <ehird> pikhq: it's just that there's no finished program
16:44:29 <ehird> except maybe hello world
16:44:52 <pikhq> And maybe junk that's been formally verified.
16:45:07 <pikhq> ... But you really don't design your OS assuming that, now do you?
16:45:07 <ehird> pikhq: errors in proof, errors in proof system
16:45:11 <ehird> errors in what you're proving
16:46:15 * ehird realises that for C strings, regexp ^ can be represented as [^\0]
16:47:13 <oerjan> ehird: er, you mean . ?
16:47:31 <ehird> ^ can be represented as [^\0](backtrack)
16:47:50 <ehird> (don't advance [^\0])
16:48:03 <oerjan> there is no \0 at the start
16:48:10 <ehird> uhh yes that's the point
16:48:11 <oerjan> $ = [\0] though i guess
16:48:24 <ehird> ^ does have to be special cased
16:48:28 <ehird> since it's not enforcing not-end
16:48:31 <ehird> it's enforcing start
16:49:18 <okloput> take a glio, put it in your pocket
16:49:25 <oerjan> you could use a reverse negative lookahead, i forget the syntax
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16:55:27 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575607.txt?key=jkkr84jcur9wbhf8clemq ;; I think this is an optimal compilation of the regexp (save tricks like reading multiple bytes at a time etc)
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16:55:54 <ehird> hmm that has a redundant break
16:56:07 <ehird> the break can be omitted there
16:56:53 <ehird> though probably the nfa stuff beats it
16:58:37 <ais523> you have a regex to C compiler?
16:58:51 <ehird> no, i'm just toying with writing one for the hell of it
16:58:58 <ehird> but only actually regular regexs
16:59:11 <ehird> for (a) simplicity, (b) performance
16:59:21 <ehird> (Waiter, you got an exponential search in my matcher.)
16:59:35 <ais523> apparently Perl compiles regexes behind the scenes, when they're encountered
16:59:41 <ais523> although they have a /o option to only compile once
16:59:45 <ehird> ais523: its algorithm is terrible, though
16:59:47 <ehird> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
16:59:54 <ehird> also note that the first graph is in second
16:59:58 <ehird> the second is in microseconds
17:00:41 * ehird rewrites his compilation as a state machine
17:00:48 <ais523> it's well-known that there are certain classes of regexen that Perl handles badly, although they tend to be not too hard to avoid
17:00:56 <ais523> a better algorithm seems like a good idea
17:01:08 <ais523> although the existing algorithm should be available as an option, for golfing
17:01:16 <ehird> ais523: the paper covers this
17:01:22 <ehird> you can just check if there's a backreference in the regexp
17:01:27 <ehird> and use the exponential algorithm then
17:01:40 <ehird> no reason to make something an option that can be trivially automatic
17:02:24 <ais523> I was thinking of code like 'aaaa' =~ /a?a?a?a?(?{print "Hello, world!\n"})aaaa/
17:02:34 <ais523> but clearly, it would detect the coderef there and fall back
17:02:42 <ehird> ais523: that stuff can be done with an NFA, prolly
17:02:50 <ehird> as long as the actual expression is regular
17:03:01 <ais523> yes, but it's semantically incorrect to optimize that
17:03:10 <ais523> if you don't print hello world 16 times, you're violating perl's spec
17:03:11 <ehird> it's not an optimisation
17:03:13 <ehird> it's just a compilation
17:03:23 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't... constant fold or whatever
17:03:23 <ais523> so you have to be exponential in expressions like that one
17:03:34 <ehird> ais523: i don't expect perl would actually adopt it
17:03:41 <ehird> since it exposes the implementation so much like in that case
17:03:53 <ais523> also, note that speed of compilation is often more important than speed of execution
17:04:00 <ehird> the compilation is fast
17:04:01 <ais523> because regexes are compiled every time they're encountered
17:04:57 <okloput> ais523: why is that aaaa thing exponential?
17:05:12 <ehird> cuz perl is stupid
17:05:15 <oerjan> ais523: i would assume that applies only to regexes that contain interpolated variables or such
17:05:38 <ais523> oerjan: you'd think so, but Perl's really stupid at that, you have to write /o to say "I'm not using an interpolated variable"
17:05:46 <okloput> (yes a)(not a) is different from (not a)(yes a), so there are 2^(amount of a's) possibilities
17:05:48 <ais523> in theory, at least; in practice they probably use the as-if rule
17:06:05 <ais523> okloput: yes, that's it
17:06:23 <ais523> and IIRC the code-block could even be able to tell which sort of match it was, in a more complicated regex
17:06:25 <oerjan> ais523: huh? i thought /o was for when you _are_ using an interpolated variable but don't want the regex to change after the first use
17:06:41 <ais523> how often does that happen, though?
17:07:00 <oerjan> ais523: if the variable is not actually changed, that could be common
17:07:02 <nornalbion> IIRC perl caches regexes that don't have interpolated variables by default
17:07:17 <nornalbion> But if they do have interpolated variables you have to use /o manually
17:07:58 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575625.txt?key=qetirlttqkzlvzaqnllg
17:08:05 <ehird> the regexp as an FSM
17:08:13 <ehird> the string is touched by his noodly appendage
17:08:19 * ehird rewrites it with gotos
17:08:27 <ehird> (↑ This is considered a socially unacceptable thing to say.)
17:10:41 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq
17:10:45 <ehird> And this is surely optimal.
17:10:50 <ehird> er, drop the case 4: line
17:11:03 <ehird> of course, this doesn't gather the groups
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17:14:29 <ehird> movzbl(%eax), %eax
17:14:35 <ehird> that's some pretty darn optimal code
17:15:04 <ehird> wow, it gets even better with -O3
17:15:12 <ehird> movzbl(%eax), %edx
17:15:20 <ais523> ehird: that's an interesting paper, it's mirroring what happened in parser development
17:15:26 <ehird> ais523: do you know of a good asm→C decompiler?
17:15:31 <ehird> I wanna see what the heck it compiles my state machine to
17:15:43 <ehird> whatever it is, it's pretty amazing
17:16:06 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575640.txt?key=fdsiy0eymjwr3etpfdhx7g
17:16:57 * ehird constructs a multi-MB string to test it with
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17:22:20 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.pastie.org/private/zsluf1vbdaqlnpfzeeftq
17:22:37 <Deewiant> Decompilation of that asm, modulo any errors I made
17:22:56 <ehird> bahaha, it rolled up the bbb check!
17:22:58 <Deewiant> It could be optimized in one place
17:23:02 <ehird> that's just perversely great
17:23:13 <Deewiant> Unless it did what it did for alignment reasons
17:23:26 <ehird> who cares? it did it
17:23:35 <Deewiant> Namely, that 'ret = 1' in l6 (movl $1, %eax)
17:23:50 <Deewiant> Which is pointless if you jump to l8 immediately afterward
17:24:23 <ehird> anyway, even the plain state machine would be fast enough
17:24:29 <Deewiant> I actually missed that jump there: http://www.pastie.org/private/uqvjwjnkm1w0njxdnoqyfw
17:24:46 <ehird> that is odd indeed
17:25:34 <Deewiant> Alternatively, it's doing it there to have some space between the test and the jump
17:25:48 <Deewiant> Which might make the pipeline happier or something
17:26:27 <ehird> I didn't specify -march
17:27:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Your C seems to have a floating 'case 4:'
17:27:18 <ehird> Read the next lines kthx
17:27:51 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575666.txt?key=orndvz7i6izopps9u6gy6q
17:27:51 <Deewiant> I actually did, I just completely ignored them thereafter
17:28:02 <ehird> it just rearranges a bit and aligns
17:28:49 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the expected behavior of -O0 -march.
17:29:47 <Deewiant> ehird: Use cfunge's compilation flags and see what happens
17:30:04 <ehird> Deewiant: give me them and I'll use them; I think actually thinking about them to copy them in would kill m
17:30:06 <Deewiant> (A good reference for when you want excessive optimization)
17:30:13 <ehird> anyway, what's the simplest way to get time() except w/ msec
17:30:19 <ehird> there seems to be no easy function
17:30:24 <ehird> (measuring how long it takes to match 100mb str)
17:30:29 <pikhq> ehird: I could've sworn that GCC compiled it into a jump table.
17:30:45 <pikhq> Then I'm just blathering.
17:30:51 <ehird> it has comparisons
17:30:54 <ehird> but that's the best way to do it
17:33:13 <Deewiant> Hey, he doesn't appear to use them any more, just a bunch of -W
17:33:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Haha, unlikely.
17:33:50 <ehird> Maybe you're in the development subbranchtree or something.
17:35:11 <Deewiant> LLVM might give something different if you care enough
17:35:14 <ehird> I conclude that time() sux because it doesn't have a brother that does milliseconds unpainfully.
17:35:32 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm kind of unmotivated to compile clang
17:35:57 <ais523> clang seems to compile pretty easily
17:36:00 <ais523> the makefile worked for me
17:36:21 <ehird> ais523: you have to do it in-tree with llvm
17:36:38 <ehird> well, it didn't work for me, so I don't care
17:41:48 <ehird> "We conclude that it is certainly fine to use a 160-bit hash function like SHA1 or RIPEMD-160 with compare-by-hash. The chances of an accidental collision is about 2^-160. This is unimaginably small. You are roughly 2^90 times more likely to win a U.S. state lottery and be struck by lightning simultaneously than you are to encounter this type of error in your file system."
17:43:06 <ehird> (But, however, from our own acooke:
17:43:08 <ehird> andrew cooke on April 14, 2008 5:50 PM
17:43:08 <ehird> the 2^-160 is a bit misleading. as the first paper points out (search for "birthday") you're going to start getting collisions when you have around 2^80 blocks. that's still a lot of blocks, but *significantly* less than the 2^160 you might infer from what you wrote.)
17:43:15 <ehird> (Solution: Use a bigger hash.)
17:47:53 <ehird> I think, following careful consideration
17:47:55 <ehird> that my program has a bug.
17:49:54 <ehird> (pikhq: Deewiant: ais523:) It appears that my program can match a 1gb string in less than a second.
17:50:12 <ais523> but, against which regex
17:50:21 <Deewiant> Or it can deduce a non-match due to the first char? ;-)
17:50:35 <ehird> Deewiant: No, the string is carefully constructed to match.
17:50:42 <ehird> ais523: ^a*(bbb)*$, hand-compiled. Admittedly, not the most complex thing, HOWEVER
17:50:51 <ehird> there isn't really any more complex operation in regular expressions
17:50:59 <ehird> and there's no penalty for a long regex in my system
17:51:05 <ehird> so it's about as fast as any
17:51:10 <ehird> ais523: nope, not more expensive
17:51:15 <ehird> I already have that, essentially
17:51:19 <ehird> in my handling of (bbb)
17:51:19 <ais523> imagine (a|aaaaa)(aaaaaaa*)(aaa)?
17:51:39 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq (ignore the case 4:) line
17:51:48 <ehird> As you can see from how it handles (bbb), we already do such skipping.
17:52:03 <ehird> Just s/return 0/goto sN/
17:53:55 <ehird> Anyway, dammit, if I have this code right, a JIGGABYTE.
17:54:04 <ehird> The memory usage matches up, so I don't think I'm overflowing any counters or anything.
17:54:16 <ehird> And I assert it, so it definitely gets to a return 1.
17:54:24 <ehird> And my other tests work, and it doesn't look buggy.
17:55:37 <ehird> I'd test a bigger string but I don't have the ram.
17:55:43 <ehird> Hey fizzie! Get that cluster up here :P
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17:56:53 <ais523> ehird: incidentally, I think b?(bbb)* is more complex than a*(bbb)*
17:57:06 <ais523> because in the second there, there isn't any ambiguity about how to match any given string, in the first, there is
17:57:18 <Deewiant> ehird: Gimme a test proggy, I have about 7 GB available
17:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: I'll cook something up.
17:58:23 <ehird> 'm afraid that my time counting code didn't work, so you'll just have to clockball how long it takes after printing "Go!".
17:58:26 <ehird> Should only be a second or two.
17:59:09 <ehird> Deewiant: write me the code to measure how long it took in ms and I'll be happy to pop it in :P
17:59:44 <Deewiant> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=966499
18:00:05 <ehird> regex7gb.c:53: warning: integer constant is too large for ‘long’ type
18:00:37 <Deewiant> It's the Ubuntu forums, whaddya expect :-P
18:01:33 <ehird> Argh, even dividing by ten it's too big :P
18:01:54 <ehird> i need a new approach
18:02:00 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm talking about my string-builder
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18:02:19 <ehird> it was complaining about another part of code
18:02:30 <ehird> char *s = malloc(7516192768), *t = s; in particular
18:02:43 <ehird> hmm there's not actually a way to do that is there
18:02:55 <ehird> i don't think malloc takes a long long
18:03:05 <Deewiant> Which will be big enough on my machine
18:04:20 <ehird> Snow Leopard will be 64-bit. >:(
18:04:26 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/575711.txt?key=tymvrwsyvuypohm5h5mra; I didn't add the timer cause I'm lazy
18:04:31 <ehird> and it'll only take a few secs after go
18:04:47 <Deewiant> Like I'm going to bother to get an even semiaccurate measurement
18:05:39 <ehird> "These kinds of discussions often use Turing machines, but these days not many people are comfortable with Turing machines, so I'm going to use Scheme. [؟]"
18:07:19 <Deewiant> It pushed some things into swap though, let's try again
18:07:43 <Deewiant> Yeah, more like 4.2 seconds on average
18:07:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Irrelevant
18:07:52 <ehird> Most of that is building the string
18:07:57 <ehird> You have to count after "Go!"
18:08:19 <ehird> Well, that's very good if you ask me.
18:08:40 <Deewiant> Built with -O3 -march=native on GCC 4.4.1
18:08:41 <ehird> Not that anyone's going to be matching 7gb strings, but... it's nice to be able to.
18:08:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft, you didn't even unroll loops! :-P
18:09:14 <ehird> Deewiant: The string-building ones, duh!
18:09:34 <ehird> There should be an -O4 that enables every safe optimisation, and -O5 that enables every optimisation.
18:10:03 <Deewiant> Some optimizations counter each other's work, I think
18:10:16 <Deewiant> And some are of course just parameters you can tune
18:10:50 <ehird> just try every permutation and pick the best
18:10:58 <ehird> pick the best by timing it by fuzz testing it
18:11:12 <ehird> (if it takes input)
18:11:36 <Deewiant> So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforever
18:11:53 <ehird> Do them all in parallel of course
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18:12:17 <Deewiant> So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforeveronallavailablecores
18:13:39 <ehird> Deewiant: For some definition of "forever"?
18:14:29 <Deewiant> There's probably around 100 optimization options
18:14:39 <Deewiant> So you have 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 permutations
18:14:58 <Deewiant> So yeah, that definition of "forever"
18:15:41 <Deewiant> Except that I guess we're not talking about the order in which they're applied
18:16:00 <ehird> You could have it update the executable to the fastest as it goes.
18:16:01 <Deewiant> But rather, whether each one is applied or not
18:16:12 <Deewiant> ehird: It still has to try every one
18:16:27 <ehird> 1267650600228229401496703205376
18:16:38 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but you can use it as you go
18:16:51 <ehird> anyway, let's assume we have 128 cores; a Nehalem-EX system will be able to do that and we are after all in the future
18:17:00 <ehird> each of these can run two threads
18:17:18 <ehird> → 4951760157141521099596496896
18:17:30 <ehird> let us assume that our program takes 1ms to execute
18:18:07 <ehird> it will only take 1.56915162 x 10^14 millenia
18:18:25 <ehird> and I can't think of a bigger unit than millenia.
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18:19:15 <Pthing> okay then let aeon := 1 billion years
18:19:47 <ehird> Deewiant: 156915162000000000 years isn't bad
18:19:48 <Pthing> who the fuck uses anything else apart from dead people
18:20:06 <Deewiant> I guess I'm dead according to your definition
18:20:14 <ehird> no, you're just non-english
18:20:22 <Pthing> if you're not and think a billion is 10^12 you sure should be!
18:20:32 <ehird> nobody uses it that way in english
18:20:34 <ehird> not even the british
18:20:50 <ehird> well, don't, it's dangerous
18:21:16 <Deewiant> I don't use it in dangerous contexts
18:21:23 <Deewiant> Typically I just use milliard and people stare blankly
18:22:03 <Pthing> yes because that is dead people talk
18:22:18 <ehird> Pthing: Jolly good old bean.
18:22:22 <Pthing> you are grandpa moses' economist talking about grain exports in the bronze age
18:22:34 <Deewiant> I guess Canadians have it well since French uses the long scale
18:22:37 <okloput> 10^12 is the superior definition
18:22:46 <ehird> but it's not what is used
18:22:50 <ehird> also, 10^12 comes up less
18:22:56 <ehird> whereas 10^9 comes up more
18:22:56 <Pthing> for less = hardly ever
18:22:57 <okloput> well i don't give a shit, naturally
18:23:03 <ehird> but yeah billion is a bad name
18:23:10 <ehird> because it's not a billion like a million is.
18:23:11 <okloput> yeah who cares about real people
18:23:12 <Deewiant> Who cares whether it comes up more
18:23:24 <ehird> Deewiant: people who don't want to say "three thousand million"
18:23:26 <Deewiant> "10^9 is more common than 10^12 so let's call it billion instead of milliard"
18:23:39 <Deewiant> Just use milliard, much easier
18:23:43 <ehird> milliard + scratchy communication line = million
18:23:54 <Pthing> also it sounds even more french than million
18:24:22 <Deewiant> ehird: billion + scratchy communication line = million
18:24:32 <Deewiant> Much more so than milliard, IMO :-P
18:24:35 <ehird> Deewiant: if you can't pronounce things properly
18:24:57 <Deewiant> All you need to have is a flu and they sound the same
18:25:07 <ehird> So, Terry Pratchett says he's going to kill himself.
18:25:07 <Deewiant> In financial markets, yard (derived from milliard) is still often used instead of "billion" to avoid ambiguity between "million" and "billion". -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliard
18:25:39 <Pthing> fuck the financial markets
18:26:15 <okloput> anyway who gives a shit what the idiots still using a 10-base number system use for shorthands
18:26:25 <Pthing> you could just use SI prefix + years
18:26:33 <ehird> okloput: what's your favourite base
18:26:54 <ehird> okloput: too verbose
18:26:58 <okloput> i don't really use numbers much
18:27:17 <okloput> ehird: there are well-known shorthands for writing base-2
18:27:39 <ais523> ehird: it's /also/ a shorthand for base 2
18:27:51 <ehird> okloput: because then you like base 16, not base 2!
18:28:03 <okloput> numbers are pretty useless anyway
18:28:08 <ehird> anyway base 3 is better
18:28:10 <ehird> because you have a middle
18:28:35 <ehird> or rather base 9 :P
18:28:39 <okloput> trinary has it's funny bones, yes.
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18:30:43 <ehird_> i hate computers and their disconnection
18:30:46 <ehird_> The Nonary system of notation is used by the fictional civilization, The Culture, found in Iain M. Banks' books.[citation needed]
18:31:49 <ehird_> happy 2672-08-07, anyway
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18:40:59 <ehird_> i wish there was a vm os
18:41:07 <ehird_> where all its resources are dedicated to running multiple vms at once
18:41:25 <ehird_> current ones sorta don't cut it because your vm is noticeably slower etc than your host
18:44:09 * ehird_ wonders why people write in pseudocode that's so much like real code
18:44:59 <pikhq> ehird_: A VM OS, you say?
18:45:09 <ehird_> it'd make trying OSes out so much nicer
18:45:14 <pikhq> Sounds like an IBM mainframe.
18:45:16 <ehird_> if you could say "dedicate all resources to this OS"
18:45:33 <ehird_> of course you'd have to insanely optimise the hardware layers
18:45:38 <ehird_> specifically, make them almost direct drivers
18:45:45 <ehird_> with everything else being optional
18:45:47 <ehird_> pikhq: on consumer hardware.
18:45:54 <ehird_> it's perfectly doable, just hard
18:45:57 <pikhq> ehird_: Fair enough.
18:46:00 <ehird_> easier than writing a full OS, though :P
18:46:02 <pikhq> Perfectly doable, just hard.
18:46:12 <pikhq> Basically, that would amount to a good hypervisor.
18:46:51 <ehird_> anyone know a super-simple png loader/writer lib for c
18:47:01 <ehird_> basically http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ for c
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19:00:28 <ais523> Microsoft just patented XML document formats...
19:00:35 <ais523> so they now seem to have a patent on XHTML and ODF, among other things
19:00:44 <ais523> hopefully, there's no way that particular patent will stand
19:00:51 <pikhq> Not ODF. Their patent specifies "in a single XML file".
19:00:59 <pikhq> ODF uses multiple.
19:01:08 <ais523> as in, they're both valid
19:02:00 <ehird_> only that part is patented, then
19:02:45 <ehird_> This summary is probably not complete or fully accurate, but it is an impressive collection of distributed computations, produced within or on top of the Arpanet. Much of this work, however, was done in the early 70s; one participant recently commented, “It's hard for me to believe that this all happened seven years ago.” Since that time, we have not witnessed the anticipated blossoming of many distributed applications using the long-haul capabilities of
19:12:59 <ehird_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYluZRwrw9w
19:15:02 <augur> it is not a euphemism for damnation
19:15:17 <augur> "what in the entire nation" ~ "what in the world"
19:15:51 <ehird_> so, if someone writes a rap in lojban I'll paypal them $0
19:16:03 <augur> not much of an incentive!
19:16:12 <ehird_> extra incentive: you'll be fucking awesome
19:16:27 <augur> youll be a guy who wrote a rap in lojban
19:17:06 <augur> more like opposite
19:17:55 <ehird_> augur you just hate lojban because you suck
19:18:13 <augur> no, im just aware of how much of a nerd you have to be to rap in lojban. :P
19:19:02 <ehird_> augur: nerd increases awesomeness
19:19:18 <augur> wrong kind of nerdery
19:19:47 <ehird_> augur: yeah well you're a fag
19:21:45 <ehird_> speaking of lojban, http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=17
19:23:10 <ehird_> also http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=61
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19:36:19 <augur> http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-worst-families
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20:25:49 <ehird> simple png reader/writer lib in c
20:26:14 <ehird> I mean http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ simple, not libpng "simple"
20:26:22 <ehird> pngwriter's in c++ though
20:27:08 <ais523> libpng has a simple API as well as the full one, IIRC
20:27:13 <ais523> although IME the full one's been more usefu
20:27:31 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-gb&ei=FIB8SrGqOMOfjAf6laGIBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=libpng+simple+api&spell=1
20:27:33 <ehird> latent content: LIBPNG: Worst API, Ever
20:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, simple as in "simple implementation, low level API" or simple as in "easy to use high level API"
20:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: no contradiction.
20:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well not in theory indeed :P
20:28:03 <ehird> i already gave a relevant pointer. http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/quickstart-en.php should remove all doubts as to which
20:28:44 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, the functions filename→vector and vector*filename→void must be soo complex
20:29:06 <AnMaster> vector? png is bitmapped... what are you talking about
20:29:27 <ehird> I know you said Swedish mathematics education was piss-poor,
20:29:33 <ehird> but did they actually give you any classes at all?
20:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a hot day here, excuse me for not being up to speed. 25 C at 72% humidity in the evening... Was over 30 C during the day
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20:32:36 <ehird> So, the Swedes have resorted to complaining that it's over twenty degrees to justify their intelligence.
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20:32:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... That's hot?
20:32:59 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Math education is poor too. Vectors were only introduced in late high school
20:32:59 <ehird> Somehow, my brain hasn't yet melted from hot temperatures.
20:33:07 <ehird> Vectors, late high school?
20:33:08 <pikhq> That's "finally, it fucking *cooled down*" temperature.
20:33:11 <ehird> EVEN THE US IS BETTER THAN THAT
20:33:15 <ehird> I think, at least.
20:33:19 <AnMaster> ehird, see. That is what I told you
20:33:20 <pikhq> ehird: ... No, no.
20:33:25 <pikhq> Vectors are covered in college.
20:33:35 <pikhq> With a *tiny* bit in high school.
20:33:54 <ehird> Do USians really not know calculus before they enter university?
20:33:57 <ehird> Like, even the good ones?
20:34:03 <pikhq> ehird: Only the good ones.
20:34:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, 72% atm says the thingy that measures it. Was close to 80% yesterday at least
20:34:13 <AnMaster> didn't check in the middle of the day
20:34:28 <pikhq> ehird: US public education is *staggeringly* bad.
20:34:48 <ehird> So much for Ivy League, huh.
20:34:54 <AnMaster> all Swedish education is like the US public education
20:34:59 <pikhq> You probably know more mathematics than the average US high school graduate.
20:35:00 <ehird> Ivy Ihopeyouknowcalculusleague.
20:35:12 <okloput> we have vectors in high school as well
20:35:13 <ehird> Why did I attach that to league and not ivy?
20:35:15 <pikhq> The US at least makes up for it by having decent to good post-secondary education.
20:35:15 <ehird> WE WILL NEVER KNOW
20:35:19 <AnMaster> since private education only recently started to grow from some tiny fraction of a percent
20:35:26 <okloput> pikhq: Vectors are covered in college. <<< xD
20:36:04 <pikhq> okloput: In precalc (an optional course for HS students).
20:36:08 <AnMaster> well, there wasn't a *lot* about vectors in high school in fact.
20:36:28 <okloput> not that it matters, no one learns anything in high school anyway they can't learn in about 5 hours of lectures in uni.
20:36:46 <pikhq> I learned plenty *in* high school.
20:36:49 <AnMaster> okloput, that is probably true
20:36:52 <pikhq> Just... Not *from* high school.
20:37:16 <ehird> I can safely say that from middle school onwards, the school education in this country teaches you precisely and exactly zip.
20:37:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, private education? Or a joke about other stuff?
20:37:23 <ehird> ...until university, at least
20:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: He's talking about pornography, duh.
20:37:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm autodidactic.
20:37:42 <ehird> (Note: He's not, actually.)
20:37:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is what I meant with "other stuff"
20:37:52 <pikhq> ehird: Which is an improvement on the US. You stop learning in about elementary.
20:38:01 <ehird> hmm, he's actually talking about his ability to use a pretentious word to mean "I read Wikipedia"
20:38:11 <ehird> Autodidactic. I read Wikipedia. The choice is clear.
20:38:24 <pikhq> ehird: I had the same tendency to self-teach things before Wikipedia existed.
20:38:33 <pikhq> I just read a lot.
20:38:45 <AnMaster> same with me for programming at least. And some of the math.
20:38:47 <ehird> Wikipedia used to be more distributed and less accurate /shrug
20:39:28 <AnMaster> hah :P I meant learning by reading, not wikipedia specifically
20:40:16 <ehird> I want to do some hivemind applications; e.g. answering questions by collating the web and IRC etc.
20:40:37 <ehird> (I'd better do it before someone adds another fact to Cyc!)
20:42:39 <pikhq> ehird: The average USian reads about as well as a US 4th grade student.
20:43:09 <pikhq> Which is to say, they can't even read a novel of moderate length.
20:43:39 <pikhq> About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year.
20:44:03 <okloput> well books can be kinda annoying
20:44:28 <ehird> okay you know what
20:44:41 <ehird> let's gather up all the cool people in the US — should take a few hours —
20:44:42 <pikhq> ehird: My thoughts exactly.
20:44:47 -!- okloput has changed nick to oklopol.
20:44:53 <ehird> and shoot it into orbit
20:44:56 <ehird> oxygen not required
20:44:59 <pikhq> ehird: So, most Americans on Freenode, friends of theirs?
20:45:03 <ehird> send it off to pluto
20:45:14 <ehird> pikhq: dunno there are plenty of cool people who abstain from freenode for good reasons
20:45:31 <ehird> (for example, freenode's founder and administration are uh, questionable)
20:45:36 <oklopol> so you want to kill all the cool people in usa
20:45:42 <ehird> add OFTC and find a way to include the non-programmers
20:45:49 <pikhq> ehird: That's why I said "and friends of theirs".
20:45:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year. <-- I suspect things are close to as bad in Sweden, That is from personal experience talking to people; I don't have actual numbers handy.
20:46:04 <ehird> cuz i'm sure that way you'll get a bunch of idiots
20:46:09 <pikhq> ehird: Within reason.
20:46:10 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's almost certainly untrue
20:46:14 <oklopol> yeah take the whole closure
20:46:18 <ehird> sweden is ranked among the top places to live etc
20:46:40 <pikhq> ehird: Probably you need a function "coolPerson :: Person -> Bool"
20:46:50 <ehird> pikhq: x -> Bool, aka Set x
20:46:56 <ehird> so that's not terribly helpful
20:47:25 <nornalbion> Person would have to be a typeclass...
20:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.scb.se/statistik/LE/LE0101/1976I02/LE0101_1976I02_BR_06_LE103SA0401.pdf seems to indicate it was 30% for men in 1999
20:47:36 <ehird> nornalbion: really?
20:47:49 <nornalbion> ehird: I don't think it's a builtin in Haskell, somehow...
20:47:57 <ehird> nornalbion: type Foo = ...
20:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: well we all know men just want sex and women are gentle and emotional
20:48:20 <nornalbion> Clearly I shouldn't talk about Haskell because I don't know much :P
20:48:38 <ehird> typeclasses have existing types as instances anyway
20:48:41 <ehird> so that wouldn't help
20:48:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... That's more than 20% of people reading books.
20:48:57 <ehird> anyway nornalbion where did you come from anyway
20:48:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes. you said *who didn't read*
20:49:21 <ehird> nornalbion: don't recall seeing you in sine, k
20:49:24 <AnMaster> according to that pdf traditional dance is one of the most unpopular activities in Sweden
20:49:32 <ehird> traditional dance is pretty suck
20:49:44 <pikhq> Adherents of it include: Stallman.
20:50:00 <pikhq> ... I do *not* want to see fat man dancing, thank you.
20:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well, for women snowboard/windsurfing is even less popular (why combine those two!? makes no sense to me!)
20:50:13 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pube5Aynsls
20:51:11 <ehird> not exactly traditional dance :P
20:51:16 <pikhq> The Census bureau defines literacy as "being able to read and write to any extent"...
20:51:19 <AnMaster> traditional dance... wait... bad translation. Seems it is called "folk dance" says interwiki links
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20:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: also combined snowboarding/windsurfing sounds amazing.
20:51:56 <pikhq> Including "a small handful of familiar words"...
20:52:14 <pikhq> God. So much suck.
20:52:15 <ehird> silly people and their silly names
20:52:17 <nornalbion> ehird: I tried to show you in sine, then noticed you weren't in it. Woops :\/
20:52:52 <ehird> dunno i think i asked about something trivial and he got all pissy at me
20:54:06 <pikhq> ... Only 13% of the US population is able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activities; or compare and compute the cost per ounce of common food items.
20:54:25 <AnMaster> hm a question ehird... not sure if you know about this, but... When a laptop is suspended the fans turn off. Could that have any bad effects if the fans were working at full speed just before suspending?
20:54:47 * ehird attempts to rewrite the rest of Baby Got Back, but finds that "when a coder walks in with an itty bitty instruction set" doesn't fit
20:54:48 <AnMaster> hm guess no need for cooling once cpu turns off
20:55:06 <ais523> it shouldn't, although it isn't cooling, the CPU won't get any hotter because it isn't running
20:55:07 <ehird> guess I could use "lang"
20:55:21 <pikhq> ehird: Listen to Jonathan Coulton singing it for inspiration.
20:55:23 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But it won't cool down as fast
20:55:55 <AnMaster> compared to suddenly reduced workload I mean with fans still running for a few seconds
20:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand how cooling works
20:56:15 <ehird> it's not producing heat, so it'll just dissipate into the air
20:57:04 <ehird> hmm an issue with Baby Got Back is that it's rather biased towards the object being large
20:57:11 <ehird> whereas we stereotypically go the opposite way
20:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But question is how fast it will cool down. Considering how hot the air becomes where it exits... I'm not positive but it feels like it could melt stuff standing too close, so putting the laptop in a backpack directly after... hrrm
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20:59:10 <AnMaster> if CPU is around 60 C, then the air exiting would be a bit lower. Not sure how much but let me get a thermometer and put full load on both cores.. brb
20:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster. It is not going to melt your backpack.
20:59:33 <ehird> Your CPU will also not die after suspension because that's not how cooling works.
20:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: just buy a laptop pad if you're worried anyway
20:59:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is true. I realised that after I asked
20:59:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it won't /warm up/ after shutting down, though
21:00:09 <ais523> and so if it would have melted after turning it off, it would have melted beforehand
21:00:19 <AnMaster> ais523, don't be too sure. My old first model ibook sometimes failed to shut down the cpu when you put it to sleep
21:00:27 <ehird> I mean using a non-netbook laptop without a cooling pad is asking for trouble
21:00:32 <AnMaster> as in, it crashed right after turning off fan and right before turning off cpu
21:00:46 <ehird> overheating of both your components and uh, making you infertile
21:00:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I use it on a table anyway
21:01:06 <ehird> it'll still overheat
21:01:13 <ehird> most companies strongly recommend you use a laptop pad
21:01:34 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't see anything about that in the manual from lenovo though
21:01:54 <Deewiant> Of course they do, so that they can sell you one
21:02:00 <ehird> in the safety stuff, say
21:02:03 <AnMaster> btw, it seems it is quite easy to replace many parts of it. With warranty left I mean. Unlike those macs I have seen ;P
21:02:11 <oklopol> adoption is a simpler alternative to procuring a laptop pad
21:02:16 <ehird> most laptop companies don't sell laptop pads
21:02:22 <ehird> oklopol: that doesn't solve it turning off because it overheated
21:02:23 <AnMaster> you can even easily replace harddisk by just following three easy steps in the manual :P
21:02:41 <Deewiant> Then they have some kind of deal with a company who does, same difference
21:02:47 <ehird> Deewiant: not IME, no.
21:02:52 <ehird> AnMaster: that's funny, because with a mbp you just screw open the case, take it out and put a new one in
21:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you only need one screw here.
21:03:27 <ehird> That's good; I can replace the laptop every time I sit it down easily.
21:03:35 <ehird> I've always wanted to do that.
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21:04:38 <AnMaster> ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card?
21:04:46 <ehird> the expresscard thing?
21:04:47 <AnMaster> I'm fairly certain plain macbooks doesn't
21:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well similar thingy. Possibly not exactly the same
21:05:33 <ehird> 21:04] AnMaster: ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card?
21:05:57 <ehird> if anyone presents me with a gui irc client for os x that lets me copy lines without fucking the formatting up, I will love them forever
21:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I was writing "mac book pro" first and added the s afterwards, forgot to change the "does" then
21:06:40 <ehird> funny, because apple's marketing refer to them as singular
21:06:43 <AnMaster> macbooks pro? macbooks pros? macbook pros?
21:07:01 <ehird> MacBook Pros, or, if you're apple, awkawrd sentences like "It makes MacBook Air incredibly light,"
21:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I just demonstrated the reason :P
21:07:12 <ehird> As we all know, they only sell one unit of every model.
21:07:16 <ehird> First come, first served!
21:07:36 <ehird> They are very clear.
21:07:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> First come, only served!
21:07:47 <ehird> My statement is still correct.
21:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, btw why would only the 17" model have express card?
21:08:56 <AnMaster> I mean, lenovo managed to fit *two* slots in this 15.4" model
21:09:29 <ehird> because they did a study, found out almost everyone doesn't use it, find out that those who do just put in an SD card reader, replaced it with an SD card slot. Left it in the 17" model for the business/uber-pro people that really, really need it.
21:09:37 <ehird> AnMaster: that would not work because the macbook pro is a lot thinner
21:10:03 <ehird> 0.95" thick, including closed display
21:10:09 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, this has an sd reader too
21:10:23 <AnMaster> combined SD/MemoryStick/a/few/other/ones
21:10:35 <AnMaster> sadly not the single format I actually use. which is CF
21:11:14 <ehird> incidentally, thing that i learned recently:
21:11:20 <ehird> movies aren't edited uncompressed or losslessly
21:12:15 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, they are usually scanned from analogue master
21:12:22 <ehird> no, no they're not
21:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it was ages ago I read about professional movie editing
21:12:59 <ehird> Middle Ages thereabouts, I assume.
21:13:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 2002? 2003? Something like that
21:14:09 <ehird> so, the lojbanic term for MOO is "computerized imaginary universe"
21:14:13 <ehird> well, translates as
21:15:04 <ehird> that's just the name for _the_ lojban moo
21:15:15 <AnMaster> then it was like: low quality scan from master, *edit and save the edits*, scan high quality, auto apply the edits (would be too slow to work at the high quality when actually editing, yeah it was a while ago), reprint to analogue film "master" which is then used to create the film reels sent to the cinemas
21:15:37 <ehird> I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProRes_422
21:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: ..........no?
21:16:27 <AnMaster> well, what do you mean about that "moo" then
21:16:52 <ehird> Moo is the noise cows make.
21:16:55 <AnMaster> do you mean the word "moo" is Lojban for "computerized imaginary universe"
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21:17:21 <ehird> It's a joke about how lojban uses short words to represent useless, abstract concepts.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> I'm not familiar enough with lojban to know that it did that
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21:18:08 <ehird> And that was a joke about the word "gullible" not being in the dictionary.
21:18:43 <ehird> Since you didn't get it, let me repeat:
21:18:49 <ehird> I was bullshitting.
21:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I understand that now
21:19:27 <AnMaster> but does it really use short words for useless (in everyday context) concepts?
21:19:48 <ehird> Yes, and I'm an elephant that can fly.
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21:28:15 <ehird> anyway, with these hydraulic stilts
21:28:15 <ehird> you could get really long trousers
21:28:15 <ehird> and get into the guiness book of records
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23:40:28 <mycroftiv> i think quite a few people are actually working on integrating plan9 better with the functional paradigm, since the functional approach is very strong in network/signal processing/messaging type scenarios that are generally a good match for plan9 architecturally
23:40:31 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, btw. Once plan9 supports modern hardware better I might actually consider switching. Oh and I guess once more software is ported to it as well..
23:41:00 <AnMaster> basically when it works just as out of box on my new thinkpad as ubuntu did. Which I realise is not a reasonable goal at all.
23:41:15 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: my opinion is that the right way to make use of plan9 is not at all to consider 'switching' - but rather to integrate whatever plan9 tools and tech is useful to you, via one of several methods
23:41:27 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I do have plan9port installed
23:41:32 <mycroftiv> (which might range from an old box acting as a plan9 server, to using plan9port, to using a virtual machine, etc)
23:42:32 <AnMaster> I use it sometimes. But really I'm way more used to (gnu) emacs than sam or acme
23:42:33 <mycroftiv> that is one way to access some of the tools, if you like them - i also think having a small qemu VM running as a headless cpu server is also a very nice and resource efficient way of adding plan9 stuff to your toolset
23:44:08 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, does erlang/otp run on plan9... I don't remember that being supported. And I tend to use my old headless computers as parts of a distributed erlang network. Which means I can select between solaris, freebsd and linux really
23:44:45 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, otherwise I would probably run it natively already on them
23:44:45 <mycroftiv> let me do a quick scan of contrib and see if i see anything erlang-related - not sure if someone has ported stuff or not
23:45:21 <mycroftiv> nope, looks like if any erlang stuff has been done, its not on sources server at least
23:45:30 <AnMaster> it would be rather non-trivial I suspect.
23:45:42 <AnMaster> certainly, it isn't something I would consider doing.
23:45:51 <AnMaster> what with the JIT stuff and such
23:46:22 <AnMaster> well, not JIT, more like AOT. Still way over my head.
23:46:37 <AnMaster> I guess the basic interpreted bit, maybe.
23:48:23 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway. I would really want to use the network fs thingy, but I never figured out where to start with it under linux... So I ended up using nfs over the lan
23:48:51 <AnMaster> yes I realize it can do much more than just files.
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23:49:10 <AnMaster> there is the kernel option thingy and that is all
23:49:20 <mycroftiv> well, honestly, the 9p stuff in linux is kind of a hassle, in my experience - i use plan9port but mostly for venti and some other stuff
23:50:15 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, since I have modern hardware and I use 3D graphics quite a bit (and want reasonable frame rates) I don't expect I will run anything but linux as the "base" OS during the next few years
23:50:48 <ehird> erlang sorta sucks
23:51:03 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: im not expecting to change away from linux controlling most of my hardware either, but that doesnt interfere with my use of plan9 at all
23:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that is your opinion. IME all non-trivial programming languages has both good and bad bits. Every non-trivial language has some quirk.
23:52:10 <ehird> god, I can't state one opinion without AnMaster turning into plato or whatever mentioning "OH, THAT'S YOUR OPINION"
23:52:12 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I heard you mention some in haskell too ehird.
23:52:20 <ehird> no, it's an objective fact woven into the universe that erlang sucks!!!
23:52:27 <ehird> "ERLANG SUCKS" was encoded in the big bang
23:52:46 <ehird> in fact the LHC has proved that it is a universal truth that erlang sucks
23:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you never give up...
23:53:12 <oklopol> ehird: are you trying to yank my chains there......??
23:53:16 <ehird> the point <-------------> anmaster's head
23:53:30 <oklopol> why would you tell such an outrageous lie
23:53:35 <ehird> Slereah_: doesn't matter, i used the sucking of erlang to see into the future
23:53:47 <oklopol> i mean god, someone tell me what time it id
23:53:48 <ehird> AnMaster: to spell it out for you
23:53:51 <ehird> every time i say an opinion
23:53:53 <Slereah_> But if you can see the future with it, that doesn't suck
23:53:54 <ehird> you go "THAT'S YOUR OPINION"
23:53:58 <ehird> like you're making some epic point
23:53:59 <Slereah_> How do you resolve that paradox?
23:54:02 <ehird> of course it's my damn opinion, I SAID IT
23:54:10 <oklopol> Slereah_: it sucks as a programming language
23:54:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: really, isnt it just YOUR OPINION that every time you say an opinion, he says that?
23:54:16 <ehird> oh fuck you, shall i talk in objective predicates all the time?
23:54:23 <ehird> HEY BY EVERY TIME MAYBE I JUST MEAN REALLY OFTEN
23:54:34 <ehird> human communication being subjective and imprecise. who'da thunk it!
23:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't lojban supposed to "fix" that?
23:55:20 <ehird> now you're surely trolling
23:55:23 <mycroftiv> i rate ehird's rant 9.0 out of 10 on the rantmeter
23:55:37 <oklopol> imo AnMaster doesn't use "that's your opinion" too much, or in stupid ways, then again that's just my opinion
23:55:43 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, only? I would place it at 9.8 at leasyt
23:55:48 <ehird> oklopol: THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION
23:55:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: why thank you
23:55:58 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i have pretty high standards for rants, since i deliver quite a few myself when triggered
23:56:37 <ehird> oklopol: anyway it's 23:56 bst
23:56:50 <ehird> which is, fun fact, gmt+1
23:56:52 <oklopol> ehird: i envy your pasty present.
23:57:17 <ehird> no it's not, it's 00:57 there
23:57:23 <ehird> was when you said that line, too
23:57:30 <mycroftiv> this reminds me actually of one of my own rants: when i was in school, we had to learn to classify statements as 'fact' vs. 'opinion' - but the problem is, the definition of 'fact' was basically purely based on authority
23:57:35 <AnMaster> and for mycroftiv it seems to be much much earlier
23:57:45 <ehird> oklopol: just go around the world
23:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, damn yes, I looked at clock and then it switched half a second later
23:57:51 <ehird> and you'll never spend any time
23:58:09 <ehird> FACT: Gay marriage will destroy the world.
23:58:27 <AnMaster> ehird, so slighly slower than a concorde then?
23:58:29 <ehird> (FACT: Dettol protects?)
23:58:41 <ehird> AnMaster: concorde goes faster than sound, not time.
23:58:55 <oklopol> gay marriage is meaningless
23:59:13 <ehird> oklopol: tru dat, also interracial marriage
23:59:17 <oklopol> if they already get the legal benefits
23:59:26 <mycroftiv> the secret of eternal youth is circling the pole going against the flow of timezones, you go back in time one day per revolution
23:59:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: but that's what i'm saying!
23:59:41 <ehird> just go fast enough
23:59:47 <oklopol> well marriage isn't pointless, from a legal standpoint
23:59:48 <ehird> and time will never pass an hour
00:00:05 <mycroftiv> you dont have to go fast at all, if you go right up to the pole, you can just put your hand on the pole and spin around it in circles til you get dizzy
00:00:17 <pikhq> mycroftiv: The secret of eternal youth is going to a black hole.
00:00:30 <mycroftiv> pikhq: and balancing on the event horizon?
00:00:33 <ehird> pikhq: also secret of becoming thin
00:00:51 <pikhq> ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen.
00:01:13 <mycroftiv> pikhq: not true - you are *eternally* visible to external observers if you fall into a black hole
00:01:23 <ehird> hmm invisibility, eternal youth and thinness
00:01:26 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. <-- is it just me or does that remind you of monty python for some reason?
00:01:28 <ehird> black holes could solve all our problems.
00:01:30 <ais523> not really, after a while you'll get so faint that people won't be able to see the resulting photons
00:01:31 <mycroftiv> however its true you get so red-shifted its very hard to actually see you
00:01:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: Not just you.
00:01:53 <ehird> you broke the chain of "name: no"
00:01:54 <AnMaster> I can't think of what the sketch was though
00:01:59 <mycroftiv> ^what ais523 said, he understands what i meant
00:02:01 <ehird> even pikhq continued it though accidentally
00:02:18 <ehird> [00:01] pikhq: mycroftiv: No.
00:02:18 <ehird> [00:01] pikhq: AnMaster: No[…]
00:02:23 <ehird> not starts with no
00:02:35 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but thought you meant the whole message
00:02:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: "How Not to be Seen" is the name of the sketch.
00:02:44 <ehird> then pikhq would have broken it with "No."
00:02:46 <ehird> since that has a dot
00:04:21 <AnMaster> ehird, but didn't notice the . first time
00:05:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: have you seen the absurd LoseThos?
00:05:19 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/
00:05:27 <mycroftiv> ehird: of course, i actually tried to download and run it awhile ago even
00:05:27 <ehird> he has 680x480 16 colour graphics... yet 12GB of RAM
00:05:32 <ehird> i can't ramble about it
00:05:35 <ehird> i looove rambling about it and him
00:05:44 <ehird> especially his markov chain-esque godspeak
00:05:44 <mycroftiv> ive even seen him in forum debates
00:05:53 <ehird> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46#comment-819
00:05:55 <ehird> "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am."
00:06:57 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/97qbw/12_men_went_to_the_moon_using_an_understandable/c0br1sq?context=1
00:07:00 <ehird> It's got God for on-line support. (random words or passages on a plug-in hot key.)
00:07:11 <ehird> he is seriously advocating using his babble program to talk to god for help using the OS
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00:07:31 <mycroftiv> im crazy enough to appreciate the genius of that idea, but not crazy enough to think it would work
00:08:01 <mycroftiv> however the idea that sampling the 'random numbers supplied by the universe' at a given point is a way of finding hidden mechanism is something that 'most people' seem to actually believe
00:08:21 <ehird> what's that meant to mean
00:08:43 <mycroftiv> ehird: thats what astrology, tarot, i ching, etc, all have as their idea - you get some random numbers, interpret them by rule, the universe hides meaning in them
00:09:05 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm fairly sure adherents don't consider them random per se, even with hidden meaning
00:09:08 <mycroftiv> i dont believe in it myself, but if you press people on it, they think there is 'some truth' to those things, that they 'can work sometimes, for some people'
00:09:11 <ehird> that is, the meaning isn't hidden in them, they ARE the mening
00:09:24 <ehird> also, it's hopeless talking to such people
00:09:35 <mycroftiv> such people fill our world, we dont have much choice but to talk to them
00:09:42 <ehird> their reality is always full of hopeless contradiction and rampant subjectivism of absolutely everything; solipsist-level
00:10:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: but that's what the internet is for! :P
00:10:25 <AnMaster> what a shock everyone would get if it turned out to be true! (not that it is likely to ever turn out that way)
00:10:27 <mycroftiv> well, subjectivist philosophy is hopefully a bit more respectable than solipsism...but its true that the average person certainly retreats to patently solipsistic style reasoning if you try to engage them on the topic
00:10:59 <mycroftiv> a statement like "everyone has their own truth and words dont really mean anything" is where trying to establish a consistent framework of definitions for people's own statements usually gets to, and quickly
00:11:08 <ehird> nobody would get a shock
00:11:27 <mycroftiv> just asking people to provide their own freely chosen definitions for the terms they use in their statements will make them very angry if you press the point, generally
00:11:27 <ehird> i don't think you understand what solipsism means.
00:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: if solipsism is correct, you don't exist.
00:11:40 <ehird> you are not conscious.
00:11:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I think you are referring to something else that I did
00:11:43 <ehird> my brain made you up.
00:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant i ching and such
00:11:50 <ehird> in fact, everyone but me
00:11:59 <ehird> AnMaster: your referent was very vague and delayed
00:12:04 <pikhq> My brain made me up.
00:12:14 <pikhq> I am a figment of my own imagination.
00:12:38 <ehird> i'm a figment of my toes
00:13:05 <pikhq> Your toes are a figment of your mom.
00:14:16 <mycroftiv> shhhh, you guys are talking to loud - you guys are gonna wake the colorless green ideas, they are busy sleeping furiously
00:15:04 <ehird> mycroftiv: what vm host do you use for plan 9 btw?
00:15:11 <ehird> it's always been slow when I've tried it
00:15:22 <mycroftiv> both qemu and vmware server free beer
00:15:34 <ehird> qemu was the one that was dog slow
00:15:42 <ehird> also graphics drivers
00:15:43 <mycroftiv> i bet you were using qemu to do the graphics though
00:15:46 <ehird> yeah, a vm with driver problems
00:15:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: erm yes
00:16:07 <mycroftiv> i never have qemu do the graphics, i run my VMs as headless CPU servers and always drawterm in or just import from them
00:16:16 <ehird> that doesn't give me rio.
00:16:36 <ehird> but my middle mouse button doesn't work!
00:16:48 <mycroftiv> did you not set the mousetype correctly?
00:16:48 <ehird> i mean in general :P
00:17:15 <mycroftiv> my middle mouse button does scrolling in plan9, as well as the 'button 2 click' functionality that is the original mouse vocabulary
00:17:24 <ehird> i don't think you understand mycroftiv
00:17:27 <ehird> the middle mouse button on my mouse
00:17:49 * ehird notes: to talk to mycroftiv, repeat line a lot
00:18:27 <mycroftiv> um, well, usually when someone says that 'X doesnt work' in a computer context, its at the software level - because most hardware that is broken gets unplugged and different component substituted
00:18:42 <ehird> all my other usb mice are unusable though
00:18:49 <ehird> either they don't have a scrollwheel or they're not usb mice.
00:18:58 <ehird> apart from my mighty mouse
00:19:10 <ehird> but in its touch-sensitive glory, the right click has become temperamental
00:19:13 <mycroftiv> if someone is installing ubuntu and says "my monitor isnt working" im gonna assume they need help with an X server problem, not a coupon to wal-mart
00:19:16 <ehird> and after enough time, just stops working
00:19:27 <ehird> also, this mouse feels nice.
00:20:43 <mycroftiv> that reminds me, indirectly, i think im gonna find (since someone probably already did it) or write the patch to make the horrible scrollbars in plan9 windows behave conventionally
00:20:58 <ehird> i've never seen a scrollbar in plan 9
00:21:17 <ehird> i never use scrollbars though
00:21:42 <ehird> hmm rio's interface could be very interesting with one of those fancy multitouch trackpads on the macbook pros
00:21:53 <ehird> you could basically eliminate the window menu
00:21:55 <mycroftiv> yeah actually rio could very easily be updated to a multitouch moel and be quite nice
00:22:22 <ehird> problem being the drivers of course
00:22:44 <mycroftiv> hmm that reminds me, when we are talking about fundamental issues...
00:23:03 <ehird> "how do you do drivers?"
00:23:10 <mycroftiv> the fact that despite them being open-source, drivers are hard to reuse without extensive modification, is so frustrating
00:23:36 <ehird> damn i thought i was gonna be able to rant about my os
00:23:42 <ehird> but linux drivers suck.
00:24:45 <mycroftiv> the fact that the linux kernel is so competent now at handling hardware but those free software drivers havent resulted in *every* free os being equally capable is just so damn sad, but its a symptom of the deeply ad-hoc nature of how everything is engineered
00:24:55 <ehird> to hell with kernsl
00:26:04 <ehird> (that was indeed an awkward attempt to segue into talking about my OS!)
00:27:21 <ehird> (instead it killed the chat)
00:27:29 <mycroftiv> uh, were waiting for you to start talking
00:27:38 <mycroftiv> with your brilliantly prepared segue having established the context
00:27:44 <ehird> awwwwwwwkwaaaaaaaar
00:30:11 <ehird> What state are we in
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00:30:27 -!- Judofyr has joined.
00:30:33 <mycroftiv> im in state 'move right on tape until encountering a / '
00:30:37 <ehird> are we still waiting for me
00:31:51 <mycroftiv> well this is a multitasking preemptive IRC so we arent strictly 'waiting', if some other event occurs we can context switch to a new process
00:35:05 * mycroftiv slaps ehird with a large trout until he says whatever the hell he was gonna say
00:35:12 <ehird> but i don't know what context we're in!
00:35:20 <mycroftiv> much *more* awkward to get trout-slapped than just say something, isnt it?
00:36:59 <ehird> we are not amused.
00:39:21 * mycroftiv removes the / from the tape and begins to travel left until encountering a blank space
00:40:12 <ehird> i was going to talk about my os wasn't i
00:40:18 <ehird> hands up if you want to know how hardware/drivers work in my os.
00:41:03 <mycroftiv> if we raise our hands, how can we type on our keyboards to let you know our hands are raised?
00:42:43 <ais523> you can tell because people aren't typing
00:43:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: ok you don't have to raise your hand
00:43:51 <ehird> you can just type it
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00:44:25 <mycroftiv> i hope the user interface for getting information out of your os is easier than the user interface you present in IRC for us getting the information from you
00:45:33 <Azstal> you could raise your keyboard with your hand
00:45:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: should i just start blabbing
00:45:50 <mycroftiv> 19 minutes and counting currently on latency between ehird signalling the channel he had information to communicate and the delivery of said information
00:46:02 <mycroftiv> SO TELL US ABOUT THE DRIVER MODEL ALREADY
00:46:19 <ehird> wow this is going to be so anticlimatic
00:46:22 <ehird> should i even bother. i wonder.
00:46:45 <ehird> (mycroftiv tears out my soul.)
00:46:46 <mycroftiv> up to you, do you enjoy the troutslapping?
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00:46:58 <ehird> GregorR-L enjoys troutslapping.
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00:47:16 <mycroftiv> i doubt he would tell me about how the drivers work in your os though.
00:47:29 <mycroftiv> so i dont see how it would maximize my utility
00:48:08 <ehird> drivers are voluntary
00:48:20 <ehird> any object that can get another object with which to communicate directly to the hardware
00:48:26 <mycroftiv> if my hard drive driver doesnt volunteer, i cant make it work?
00:48:28 <ehird> can offer its services to any other object allowed to access it
00:48:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: shush you
00:48:42 <ehird> with these decentralised driver objects
00:48:50 <ehird> we can define eg interfaces
00:48:54 <ehird> and supply relevant driver objects
00:49:04 <ehird> and using some hardware is just getting the relevant object
00:49:16 <ehird> a driver is just something that translates sugary messages into communication with the low-level object
00:49:23 <mycroftiv> sounds like the correct model for your os, indeed
00:49:25 <ehird> nothing special, nothing in the "kernel" (there is no kernel)
00:51:18 <ehird> it pleases me when stuff just fits in my model without any new "kernel" code or whatever
00:51:22 <ehird> reaffirms that it's a good model
00:53:06 <ehird> mycroftiv: you know, if there wasn't the issue of Other People's Things being unreliable, and slowness of the internet, I'd probably encrypt every object and distribute the storage across every other machine
00:53:17 <ehird> alas those are bohh false
00:53:26 <ehird> every other machine running that OS, that is
00:53:47 <ehird> but drives disappear, network nodes disappear, and the internet is slow.
00:53:52 <mycroftiv> there are a couple projects in existence that do that - i forget what the main one is called
00:54:07 <mycroftiv> but i dont think making that your *default* is at all sane - as you correctly have stated
00:54:23 <ehird> sometimes I swear that people have never heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
00:55:08 <mycroftiv> and wow is it maddening to design around all those issues...
00:55:43 <ehird> sometimes i think the notion of a computer is flawed.
00:55:45 <mycroftiv> my first big plan9 project was kind of a distributed DNS-for-9p that ties into the inferno registry, and 99.9% of my development time on it was working out how to handle every possible failure mode
00:56:11 * ehird tries to find a piece of vm software well-suited to playing with plan9
00:56:20 <ehird> vmware fusion/parallels aren't suitable, they're way too windows-centric...
00:56:39 <mycroftiv> im not sure what the best solution is for that
00:56:47 <ehird> well qemu and stuff work but
00:56:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah, it's not reaaaaaaal plan 9 :P
00:57:01 <mycroftiv> i believe there is a pretty decent os x version of 9vx - and yes it is, especially if you use a full tree
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00:57:18 <mycroftiv> you can get the regular plan9 .iso and copy it over to your filesystem and run 9vx from it
00:57:27 <mycroftiv> the 9vx binary distribution is sadly crap, i agree
00:57:33 <ehird> but but but but but but but but
00:57:37 <ehird> it isn't exactly the same!
00:57:44 <ehird> it uses the host fs doesn't i
00:57:52 <mycroftiv> right, although thats kind of an advantage really
00:57:59 <mycroftiv> gives you natural integration between the systems
00:58:04 <ehird> it is my escape from resource forks :-P
00:58:28 <mycroftiv> wait, resource forks still exist in the mac os? are you joking? or am i confused?
00:58:52 <mycroftiv> wow, i thought os x got rid of those...
00:59:08 <pikhq> No, it's somewhat NeXTish as well.
00:59:11 <mycroftiv> how can os x be a UNIX then? sorry, i should know this, i dont keep up on os x like i should
00:59:30 <ehird> here, we use = and + to mean "bastard of x, y and z"
00:59:44 <mycroftiv> ironically, i have a white plastic imac but i run gnu/linux on it, havent booted it to os x in forever and i never really learned what was up with os x before turning it into primarily leenooks box
01:00:33 <ehird> Mac OS X = Darwin (derivative of XNU) + NEXTSTEP (XNU (BSD + Mach) + own stuff) + FreeBSD + Mac OS + own stuff
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01:00:52 <mycroftiv> sure i know that, conceptually - i know the hsitory, carbon, cocoa, blah blah, mach etc
01:00:55 <ehird> well the Mac OS part is basically the fs
01:01:00 <ehird> it uses the mac os fs with changes to make it unix-compatible
01:01:03 <ehird> thus resource forks are retained
01:01:06 <Sgeo> Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc
01:01:14 <pikhq> ehird: Throw in some GNU for good measure.
01:02:10 <pikhq> ... Fine, mostly just the GNU C compiler.
01:02:15 <pikhq> Which is almost everywhere.
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01:02:19 <ehird> mycroftiv: by default, yes
01:02:24 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Which is almost everywhere.
01:02:30 <ehird> pikhq: they're working on replacing gcc with llvm/clang
01:02:39 <ehird> i know this because i have used os x 10.2
01:02:48 <pikhq> That shit was C shell.
01:02:50 <ehird> it used to be tcsh
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01:05:32 <ehird> mycroftiv: is there a way to get 9vx to use a big file as a block device?
01:05:35 <ehird> if so, then I'll consider using it
01:06:19 <mycroftiv> you can either just run fossil/venti (if thats the idea) from flat files, or you could use devfs to make virtual devices from them
01:06:27 <ehird> yeah, I wanted to use fossil
01:06:40 <ehird> basically I just want a plan 9 system whose kernel doesn't get emulated.userspace
01:06:56 <mycroftiv> you can make a fossil, problem is that without patching that fossil wont be your *boot* fossil which i gather is also what you want?
01:07:42 <mycroftiv> right, thats possible, but it starts to get into the realm of patching-and-hacking
01:07:52 <ehird> i'll just use a fast vm + drawterm i guess
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01:08:35 <mycroftiv> since you are using os x, i unfortunately cant really push my own toolchain on you, since i distribute it in linux-centric form
01:09:15 <mycroftiv> otherwise id be saying you should download my gridtools stuff since its all set up as a true modular multinode plan9 system already
01:11:01 <mycroftiv> the thing about plan9 thats frustrating is that the base bell labs .iso distribution is so far removed from a fully configured setup that most people never get to the point of experiencing the whole purpose of the os, since there is a ton of not-very-graceful admin stuff required to make the 'magic' happen
01:13:25 <mycroftiv> ehird: thats why your ideas i think are fundamentally sound - to express things crudely, you want to 'cut out the middleman' of all the annoying implementation/administrative details of running a computer, by making the upper and lower layers more conceptually unified.
01:13:53 <mycroftiv> of course, as a basic concept that isnt new and in some ways that is what everyone (and every failed and awkward system) was trying to achieve :D
01:14:48 <mycroftiv> thats not criticism, just an acknowledgment of the difficulties of the task and a recognition that smart people have been trying to make sane and sensible systems for a long time
01:17:20 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc <-- doesn't load Sgeo
01:20:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: i do want to cut out the middleman, I think yours is incidental though
01:20:51 <ehird> my main driver is:
01:21:06 <ehird> one, we have so much useless work
01:21:11 <ehird> we separate tasks too much
01:21:16 <ehird> we separate application from application
01:21:20 <ehird> we separate objects from disk
01:21:22 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the page apparently is a 302 status code, which goes to an HTML page that uses a meta tag to go to the proper place
01:21:27 <Sgeo> AnMaster, check the source?
01:21:29 <ehird> mycroftiv: and the second,
01:21:37 <ehird> we have too much duplication
01:21:41 <ehird> so many garbage collectors
01:21:44 <AnMaster> Sgeo, can't. get a "connection reset during loading" message
01:21:44 <ehird> so many address books
01:21:49 <ehird> so many everythings
01:21:56 <AnMaster> Sgeo, so don't even get past HTTP headers I guess
01:22:01 <Sgeo> Does http://www.farmingdale.edu/campuspages/campusaffiliates/lieoc/index.html work?
01:22:01 <mycroftiv> well, all of those things you are saying sound to me like many of them fit conceptually into the broad idea of 'cut out the middleman'
01:22:03 <ehird> as a result of fixing those two everything fits together
01:22:18 <ehird> also, link to your toolchain thing anyway?
01:22:44 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I get headers but no document
01:23:07 <AnMaster> Sgeo, note: cookies and javascript are *off*
01:23:09 <ehird> mycroftiv: even if i can't use it i'm interested
01:23:15 <Sgeo> AnMaster, that may well be it
01:23:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: 9gridchan.org is my website with tons of plan9 related stuff, a full explanation and context is maybe offtopic for this channel but feel free to ask whatever
01:23:26 <AnMaster> Sgeo, not going to turn them on
01:23:36 <ehird> 9gridchan, is that like a 4chan derivative on a grid?
01:23:47 <mycroftiv> ehird: uh, not really, but sort of, yeah
01:24:12 <ehird> how on earth is it sort of :P
01:24:27 <Sgeo> The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211
01:24:31 <mycroftiv> well, its a grid that anyone can connect to so that is chan-like
01:24:49 <ehird> i was referring more to things like 4chan → 7chan and the like
01:24:52 <mycroftiv> i think the chan imageboards are some of the better stuff on the net conceptually, free speech, simple interface, no barrier to entry, etc
01:24:54 <ehird> distributed pointlessness!
01:25:03 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah i know all the arguments in favour of them
01:25:41 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, you think /b/ is "[one] of the better stuff on the net conceptually"?
01:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ad hominem, strawman
01:25:59 <ehird> (more strawman than ad hominem)
01:26:07 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: well, if you read my actual text above, that isnt what i said, so i think the statement i made was pretty clear
01:26:13 <ehird> the only flaw with your jokes AnMaster
01:26:19 <ehird> is that none of them are ever funny or carry any hint of being jokes.
01:27:09 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 <-- and?
01:27:39 <Sgeo> Did you look at it? .style7 ?
01:28:19 * Sgeo was facepalming at the bad names
01:28:21 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, on your website... what is bind -a '#¤' /dev
01:28:27 <AnMaster> that looks like encoding error to me
01:29:07 <mycroftiv> yup, that does indeed look like an error, lets check the original ns to see what it should be
01:29:19 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, and what does the #b and such mean?
01:29:37 <mycroftiv> those are how plan9 talks about binding device drivers into the namespace, pretty much
01:29:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: isn't /srv mostly used?
01:29:59 <ehird> at least that's what i saw
01:30:01 <mycroftiv> ah ok, yup, thats a weird unicode symbol that clearly has a different visual appearance
01:30:22 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, make web server send correct encoding :)
01:30:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: well /srv is where the user level file servers usually post themselves for stuff to mount, but the kernel level drivers work a bit differently i would say
01:30:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: so this drawterm stuff, what do i have to do to get it working?
01:31:06 <mycroftiv> ehird: from what base are you starting? default bell labs .iso installed into a vm, or ?
01:31:25 <ehird> well, I have the iso and nothing else
01:31:37 <ehird> the less friction this takes to get working the better
01:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, this is plan9... what do you think
01:32:00 <ehird> AnMaster: okay, fuck off, seriously
01:32:10 <ehird> for the last hours all you've done is dis plan 9 and other crap
01:32:11 <AnMaster> as in: it isn't smoothly polished ubuntu.
01:32:23 <mycroftiv> hm, how much plan9 related spam tech/support do you want in this channel?
01:32:29 <ehird> you like it in the most vaguest, tenuous sense possible
01:32:33 <ehird> just enough so you can hate on it all the time
01:32:39 <ehird> and i never said i wanted ubuntu; strawman fallacy
01:32:45 <AnMaster> I just find it amusing that you think it will work out of box more or less
01:32:48 <ehird> i said i wanted the least frictionful way possible
01:32:55 <ehird> AnMaster: i've used plan 9. it worked out of the box
01:32:58 <ehird> and did i ever say that?
01:33:04 <ehird> i never said i wanted it working out of the box
01:33:14 <ehird> you are truly excelling putting words in my mouth
01:33:18 <ehird> new heights of strawman
01:33:53 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: ironically, i actually provide preconfigured preinstalled plan9 systems that instantiate a full 4 functional node grid on your desktop out of the box, but i only provide that for linux ;)
01:34:05 <ehird> mycroftiv: impossible, that doesn't fit his biases
01:34:20 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, awesome and now I really need to sleep *turns off monitor*
01:34:58 <ehird> inferno has always confused me
01:35:02 <ehird> why do you want an OS that can only run virtualised?
01:35:20 <mycroftiv> actually inferno can also run natively, but that isnt very common except on small devices
01:35:53 <mycroftiv> i dunno, you dont like sqweak right? well its not too different from that - or from java in a different way, i mean java is real world popular.
01:36:10 <ehird> java just has a vm underneath
01:36:14 <ehird> that's basically an implementation detail
01:36:16 <mycroftiv> but besides, whats an os, whats software? i think its a false dichotomy
01:36:26 <mycroftiv> well, think of inferno as the vm implementation for the limbo language
01:36:35 <ehird> i'm not making an os, i'm making a system
01:36:45 <ehird> it boots up and comes with a set of base objects "absolutely free"
01:37:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: i've seen limbo.
01:37:02 <mycroftiv> thats good, im tired of paying $5 per boot
01:37:06 <ehird> looks like a pretty boring lang tbh
01:37:43 <mycroftiv> i havent learned it, but a lot of people like it for its concurrency/message passing features i guess - and by 'a lot of people' i mean 'a handful of people with plan9/inferno interests'
01:38:47 <mycroftiv> limbo is actually maybe the most 'on topic' thing from the plan9 universe for this channel - well, that and alef of course
01:39:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: how smoothly does plan9 run with qemu/drawterm?
01:39:16 <mycroftiv> very nicely in my experience, even on moderate hardware
01:39:39 <GregorR-L> I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless.
01:39:39 <ehird> qemu is basically the slowest emulator apart from bochs
01:39:39 <mycroftiv> much better than with qemu providing the graphics
01:39:39 <ehird> you aren't using the kqemu thing are you?
01:39:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: make a cellular automata whose atoms are cellular automata
01:40:01 <mycroftiv> i use kqemu on some boxes but not all, and even without it, i get performance that i find acceptable
01:40:05 <ehird> and use a CA to generate CAs
01:40:15 <mycroftiv> but for all i know qemu on os x is even slower than slow, i dunno
01:40:15 <ehird> mycroftiv: ok. so how easy is drawterm to set up?
01:40:34 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, let me give you the canonical 'how to' link for how to do it from the default install from the .iso, one second
01:41:04 <mycroftiv> ehird: http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Configuring_a_standalone_CPU_server/index.html
01:41:23 <mycroftiv> that is Ye Olde Testamente of how to take your default install and make it a standalone cpu auth server you can drawterm into
01:41:23 <ehird> i love how they call it a wiki, it's been read only for like 8945349534 years
01:41:36 <ehird> anyway looks irritatingly complicated.
01:41:37 <mycroftiv> its not read only as a matter of fact
01:41:46 <mycroftiv> and yes, that is exactly why i made the tools i did, because its ridiculous
01:41:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: i mounted it and couldn't save.
01:42:02 <ehird> this was a few months ago
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01:44:27 <ehird> mycroftiv: so, any particular recommendation or should i just set up qemu
01:45:05 <mycroftiv> well, im hesitant to make any os x recommendations, honestly - i get the sense from reading 9fans that os x is a bit different in what the optimal strategies are
01:45:45 <mycroftiv> ive found that qemu seems to be most generally reliable plan9 virtualization platform for the oses ive worked with it in, which is various gnu/linux distros, windows xp and vista, and freebsd
01:46:19 <ehird> how big do you recommend i make the disk?
01:46:24 <mycroftiv> if you are going to use qemu, you could try the standalone version of the preinstalled image i distribute btw
01:46:33 <ehird> what does that get me over the stock?
01:46:43 <mycroftiv> drawterm out of the box, additional configuration work done
01:46:54 <ehird> anything to emulate a middle mouse button? :P
01:47:14 <mycroftiv> um, doesnt plan9 have something to do that anyway? some key combo or something?i should know this
01:47:23 <mycroftiv> http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz
01:47:29 <ehird> isn't qcow compressed?
01:47:42 <mycroftiv> that is a .tgz of a single file which is a qcow2 preinstalled hdd image
01:47:56 <ehird> a tar of a single file?
01:47:57 <mycroftiv> is the meaning of that question "why bother to .tgz it?"
01:48:09 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, im not nuts at all! :) want the method for the madness?
01:48:13 <ehird> also, no, it's just "isn't qcow = compressed = slow?"
01:48:32 <mycroftiv> no, the way qemu handles qcow2 is pretty efficient
01:48:34 <pikhq> Qcow is copy on write, not compressed.
01:48:51 <pikhq> And a few other silly things to maximise sparseness.
01:48:52 <ehird> Q.app tells me it's compressed
01:48:52 <mycroftiv> ok, its very simply this - most people want/need to preserve the archival initial copy of the VM
01:49:13 <mycroftiv> if you provide a .tgz, the standard command line tar xzf foo.tgz leaves the original .tgz behind unchanged
01:49:30 <ehird> mycroftiv: don't plan 9 guys oppose hacks
01:49:48 <mycroftiv> this is very convenient and useful, in comparison to a .gz where the ungzip will annihilate the original, and then youll fuck up your vm since you dont understand plan9 and have to redownload...
01:49:51 <ehird> mycroftiv: btw does this image use venti
01:49:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, not in that standalone version
01:51:20 <mycroftiv> the file is badly named, its called 'ventigridserver' because its actually the version of the image that can be used to *host* a venti for other nodes to use
01:51:31 <ehird> should it be .qcow2.img or just .qcow2
01:51:32 <mycroftiv> but it doesnt do that by default, or use venti itself as its backing store
01:52:31 <ehird> how much ram should i allocate? I have 2.5gb
01:52:42 <mycroftiv> for drawterm you also need to deal with the port redirections needed to access the vm, im not sure of the details of that in os x - 256mb for the vm is plenty of ram, plenty
01:52:53 <ehird> also, do I really need to redirect ports for localhost?
01:53:06 <ehird> finally, will anything break if I boot this with graphics?
01:53:18 <mycroftiv> the vm has to be able to listen on those ports even for localhost - and no, you can boot the image fine as standard graphical vm
01:53:36 <mycroftiv> it includes the standard initial terminal/glenda setup from bell labs as an option
01:53:58 <ehird> rio started automatically for me when using the iso
01:54:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: acme won't run under the console
01:54:28 <ehird> do i want glenda or gridna?
01:54:48 <ehird> eenie meenie miney mo
01:55:04 <ehird> mycroftiv: btw, what's the done plan9 thing for users?
01:55:10 <ehird> whee, alggy indowing system
01:55:32 <ehird> when using plan 9 it was a pain to get a user running with the ability to administrate
01:55:56 <mycroftiv> bootes is set up on that image though as the admin/root
01:56:05 <mycroftiv> you can add your own user to admin stuff easy though
01:56:29 <ehird> shift+right = middle
01:56:59 <ehird> ok, if I can get a user set up here and then drawterm that'd be ideal
01:57:04 <mycroftiv> btw, are we dragging #esoteric too far offtopic? if so i have a channel for my various plan9 projects on here called #plan9chan
01:57:31 <ehird> dude, we haven't been on topic for years
01:57:45 <ehird> admittedly this diversion is rather *extended*, but
01:57:47 <pikhq> Dude, we're more often off topic than on.
01:57:54 <ehird> Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
01:58:00 <pikhq> ehird: Actually, we've been on topic on occasion.
01:58:09 <pikhq> But. That's a rare occasion.
01:58:13 <olegfink> speaking of being off topic, does anyone here do K?
01:58:21 <ehird> an idler just spoke
01:58:24 <ehird> what do we do whatdowedo
01:58:30 <ehird> olegfink: oklopol does J
01:58:34 <olegfink> well, that should have happened someday
01:58:47 <pikhq> Okay. Not a demigod, then.
01:58:50 <mycroftiv> have to spend a few minutes on phone, brb
01:58:54 <ehird> Fun fact: more than one person is named Oleg
01:58:59 <olegfink> yes, I'm in almost no way mr. Kiselev
01:59:00 <ehird> olegfink: your new name is "inferior oleg"
01:59:43 <olegfink> again, if I've correctly identified the oleg you're talking about, I doubt he's likely to be found on irc
01:59:57 <ehird> but yeah he doesn't irc.
02:00:38 <olegfink> so yeah! that's what makes me the /other/ one, right?
02:00:46 <ehird> no, the inferior one
02:00:59 <ehird> it's okay inferior oleg
02:01:02 <ehird> you're just inferior.
02:01:40 <ehird> arguing breeds rebellion.
02:02:42 <olegfink> after all, I only do saner stuff with ocaml... actually running ocamlrun on bare hardware was about as far as I got... *bursts in tears*
02:02:52 <ehird> wow you did that? awesome.
02:03:46 <olegfink> anyway, back to k... there are many j programmers, but I just need some place to ask stupid k questions.
02:04:30 <ehird> i don't really get why someone would use k over j
02:05:13 <olegfink> ehird, well, it used(s) das u-boot for the dirty init work, and worked more or less when run in the orienting the board in the right direction.
02:05:28 <ehird> orienting the ... board?
02:06:02 <ehird> i repeat my question
02:06:37 <olegfink> yeah, it was an arm9 thing with fpga, but I never got to actually use it, though the whole project was about playing with metaocaml
02:07:51 <olegfink> re k over j, why someone would use airbuses over sea liners?
02:08:29 <pikhq> When you should be using a interstellar spaceship instead.
02:08:35 <ehird> olegfink: begging the question
02:09:09 <olegfink> j is an executable mathematical notation that is particularly efficient in number theory applications, k is just a cool general-purpose functional language
02:09:24 <ehird> the languages are hugely similar
02:09:28 <ehird> from what i've seen
02:11:05 <olegfink> i have very limited knowledge of j, but from what I know its set of primitives is much larger, the syntax is both more powerful and more complicated
02:12:43 <ehird> j has more primitives?!
02:12:46 <olegfink> I don't know how many people use j as a general-purpose language, as they use the usual ocaml, haskell or c
02:12:47 <ehird> its vocab fits on one page of 3 cols
02:13:03 <pikhq> Ah, C++: [](){}();
02:13:35 <ehird> olegfink: all of it
02:13:46 <pikhq> ehird: That's a noöp.
02:13:52 <ehird> pikhq: oh C++ not C
02:14:51 <olegfink> well, K doesn't have them, it has about 50 primitives
02:15:10 <olegfink> http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm seems to list slightly more.
02:15:55 <ehird> i'm sure k has more actual functions than 50
02:15:58 <ehird> just maybe in libraries
02:16:07 <ehird> the typical k program isn't just going to be compositions of 50 funcs
02:16:30 <olegfink> aye, I'm not counting things like trigonometric functions (yes, K has no o.!)
02:17:33 <ehird> k seems very much more secret and corporate
02:18:05 <olegfink> not counting the fact that it is no longer marketed
02:18:17 <mycroftiv> uggggg 20 minutes of trying to explain the basics of networking to a teenage kid trying to freeload off his neighbor's wireless with a 10 year old laptop
02:18:40 <ehird> mycroftiv: why bother?
02:18:55 <mycroftiv> ehird: i was trying to avoid it, its my gf's kid
02:19:27 <mycroftiv> the fact that i dont even use windows enough to know how to access the networking control panel doesnt help, either
02:19:27 <ehird> olegfink: shit sux
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02:19:37 <olegfink> it's just C with lisp semantics and apl syntax...
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02:20:48 <olegfink> but I can't give an objective comparison as I've never written anything big enough in J
02:21:15 <ehird> j doesn't do big programs
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02:22:30 <ehird> http://freetexthost.com/rvsaogqp2y ← woah man.
02:22:35 <olegfink> I'm taking that into account when using the term 'big'. I think my largest ever J program was 3 lines.
02:24:19 <olegfink> it was that big because I never quite got how to do simple file i/o in J the right way.
02:27:30 <ehird> olegfink: 'j for c programmers' might help and is included in the docs
02:27:37 <ehird> it has file io in the first example
02:30:23 <olegfink> iirc it didn't help me, but maybe I was just too sleepy when I was reading jfc
02:30:44 <olegfink> what I needed was basically read some numbers from a text file, output some numbers
02:30:57 <ehird> the first example has that
02:33:05 <olegfink> well, honestly, I don't remeber what my problem was, maybe it was about parsing the string for integers, but I remeber seeing that example (is http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/continuing_to_write_in_j.htm#_Toc191734364 what you're talking about?).
02:34:06 <ehird> http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/a_first_look_at_j_programs.htm
02:36:12 <olegfink> seems the magic I haven't had mastered at that time was a proper ReadFile ;-)
02:38:47 <olegfink> I recall some problems with CRLF confusing J or something... meh, I can't find my code.
02:39:06 <ehird> why are you using crlf :P
02:39:56 <ehird> why is it on highlight?
02:40:07 <GregorR-L> So that I can harass people who use CRLF
02:40:25 <GregorR-L> We must rid ourselves of this vile plague.
02:40:29 <olegfink> iirc CRLF in J is a list of CR and LF
02:40:36 <GregorR-L> I was kidding, I don't actually have CRLF on highlight :P
02:40:46 <ehird> what about classic mac os and its CR
02:41:41 <ehird> tbh in 1983 it wouldn't have been as crazy
02:43:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: i had something queued up to say but i forgot.
02:43:40 <ehird> mycroftiv: incidentally does plan 9 have any text antialiasing mechanisms?
02:43:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: you can download some different subpixel hinted fonts if you want
02:44:00 <ehird> it's... encoded in the font?
02:44:52 <mycroftiv> i honestly dont know the details, but i know if you want smoothed fonts, theres some stuff you can download - im oblivious to fonts having grown up on 40 column all caps displays and thinking that all modern displays post 2000 look fine
02:45:26 * ehird whacks mycroftiv with the typography/display nerd bat
02:45:31 <ehird> It's a bat that you whack people with.
02:46:23 <mycroftiv> i do know that the plan9 fonts that many disdain are in fact also NONFREE for some bizarre reason and that one traditional annoyance of various things is that the fonts arent freely redistributable separate from plan 9
02:47:25 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Learn typography!
02:47:36 <ehird> pikhq: Shut up, X11 user.
02:47:41 <pikhq> Also. What the crap? Bitmap fonts?
02:47:48 <pikhq> ehird: I at least freely admit it's shitty.
02:47:48 <ehird> If you really loved typography, you'd sacrifice every other value for it.
02:47:55 <ehird> Well, freetype, not X11.
02:48:28 <pikhq> ehird: Idea: Display TeX.
02:48:37 <olegfink> ehird: bitmap fonts don't need any antialiasing.. just get a higher resolution display. :-)
02:48:54 <ehird> pikhq: TeX's actual font rendering isn't that good
02:49:01 <ehird> olegfink: (a) that makes them incy wincy
02:49:11 <ehird> (b) i'd spend $$$ for a 600dpi display, hells yeah
02:49:22 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah, but that's the only thing it doesn't do all that well.
02:49:42 <ehird> also, implementing smart quotes by making `` and '' freakin' ligatures
02:49:44 <pikhq> Oh, right. Straight TeX doesn't do that.
02:49:52 <olegfink> I heard TeX doesn't really make coffee as well.
02:51:05 <olegfink> anyway, leaving for the weekend. thanks for the time.
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04:56:59 <Sgeo[Circe]> Hello bsmntbombdood, and welcome to #esoteric
05:03:06 <Sgeo[Circe]> It's a client with a very easy scripting API
05:03:22 <pikhq> And for that YOU DIE.
05:03:28 <Sgeo[Circe]> Probably the least powerful one ever conceived, but still
05:03:59 <Sgeo> The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319
05:09:06 <Sgeo> ..no comments?
05:09:28 <pikhq> Is it Turing-complete?
05:09:47 <Sgeo> How does that apply to an API?
05:09:58 <pikhq> I think it a valid question at all times.
05:11:09 <Sgeo> Good night all
05:11:33 <oerjan> good turing-complete night
05:15:29 <pikhq> More off-topicness: I have been reading the comic "Sandman".
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05:19:40 <amca> pikhq: Im curious: are you turing complete?
05:20:18 <oerjan> that is not a valid question
05:20:55 <oerjan> the "Is it" is essential. "are you" does not work.
05:22:07 <pikhq> Thank you for that, oerjan.
05:24:37 <amca> Sorry, you right.
05:24:51 <amca> pikhq: Is it turing complete?
05:25:02 <amca> Where "it" is pikhq
05:25:54 <oerjan> only in the same way as 1 is even, where 1 = 2
05:26:23 <pikhq> amca: For certain values of Turing.
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10:32:30 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. <-- ECAs? size-5 of what?
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10:57:46 <fizzie> ECA ("elementary cellular automaton") is at least what Wolfram calls the "rule N" things. Which have a size-3 neighborhood, but you could easily imagine adding the next two neighbors too.
11:28:29 <AnMaster> is the number of possible rules limited btw?
11:28:44 <AnMaster> given the same size of neighborhood I mean
11:40:38 <fizzie> Uh, of course. There are only 256 of the elementary ones, for one thing.
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13:04:01 <GregorR-L> fizzie: If you disregard trivial permutations of other rules, there are only 64 ECAs.
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13:18:53 <morenel> whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow?
13:18:58 <morenel> frightens the shit out of me
13:34:03 <Pthing> python: widely considered the most terrifying language
13:35:26 <Pthing> only if you don't stop to think
13:35:31 <Pthing> about the terrible secret of whitespace
13:35:35 <Pthing> and what is hiding in it
13:36:29 <Slereah_> I am here to protect you from the terrible secret of whitespace
13:36:37 <Slereah_> Whitespace has a terrible power
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14:01:23 <ehird> 21:03:59 <Sgeo> The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319
14:01:23 <ehird> 21:09:06 <Sgeo> ..no comments?
14:01:28 <ehird> haven't seen you here before etc
14:01:45 <ehird> my logreading has not yet seen you
14:03:19 <ehird> python frightens you? well me too but for less trivial reasons
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14:22:19 <ehird> lament: a U man with wavy arms and a penis?
14:23:28 <ehird> looks like it zoomed in
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15:05:05 <ehird> oh is the letter called wat or something
15:06:04 <lament> you live in the past, man
15:24:05 <ehird> <reddit> Best source code ever... [ASCIIPIC?] http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c
15:24:08 <ehird> WOW YOU CAN ADD WHITESPACE
15:25:53 <Deewiant> Slow-ass US mirrors... http://www.de.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c
15:27:36 <ehird> who cares, it's a boring entry
15:28:01 <Deewiant> It's cute but simple ASCII art
15:29:05 <ehird> yes, but shit like that can be automated for chrissake
15:29:57 <ehird> i'm not dissing it
15:30:02 <ehird> but it's at the top of proggit
15:32:26 <Deewiant> There's been worse stuff at the top of proggit
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16:10:39 <pikhq> ehird: There's much better IOCCC entries.
16:10:51 <ehird> btw let's start using there're
16:10:52 <pikhq> Why not the bit of code that calculates Pi based on its own area?
16:10:54 <ehird> instead of there's → there are
16:11:29 <pikhq> Or the bootstrapping subset-of-C compiler?
16:25:03 <ehird> no fabrice bellard allowed
16:25:06 <ehird> 's just too clever
16:25:28 <lament> there're a problem with that idea
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16:26:37 <ehird> lament: umm care to clarify are you just on crack
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16:38:36 <oerjan> <morenel> whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow?
16:38:53 <oerjan> if by "flow" you mean "structure"
16:39:27 <lament> every good language there is!
16:39:37 <pikhq> lament: Not quite.
16:39:43 <pikhq> ... There exists F#.
16:40:11 * oerjan now accuses pikhq of being John D. Harrop
16:40:56 <oerjan> not very probable, i know, he wouldn't be able to mention F# that rarely in this channel
16:41:22 <pikhq> And he wouldn't be derogatory concerning the language.
16:41:32 <oerjan> wait, that was derogatory?
16:41:34 <Asztal> does Whitespace count?
16:41:59 <pikhq> oerjan: "Every good language there is!" "Not quite. There exists F#."
16:42:13 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm at least under the impression that F# has indentation-significant syntax.
16:42:16 <oerjan> pikhq: ok so F# _is_ indentation sensitive, but not good? i don't know it, so i interpreted it the other possible way
16:42:54 <pikhq> oerjan: It's a .Net "functional" programming language.
16:43:03 <ehird> Uhh, pikhq. pikhq.
16:43:10 <ehird> F# = OCaml for .NET.
16:43:18 <ehird> It isn't indentation-significant.
16:43:25 <oerjan> oh i didn't mean "don't know" in the never heard about it sense. i just haven't seen the syntax.
16:43:27 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, then.
16:43:27 <ehird> Harrop is a retard, but stop the FUD :P
16:43:42 <pikhq> F# is still an awful language, though.
16:43:59 <ehird> It's just OCaml with access to .NET stuff.
16:44:09 <ehird> Nothing spectacular, but I find it hard to hate.
16:44:13 <pikhq> "You got .Net in my functional language!" "You got your functional language in my .Net!" "YAY!"
16:44:24 <pikhq> ehird: I find the concept distasteful. ;)
16:44:24 <oerjan> it's a chimera, i guess. since ocaml already sort of is.
16:44:33 <ehird> pikhq: OCaml is object-oriented already.
16:44:33 <oerjan> and it adds .NET to that
16:44:39 <ehird> Binding .NET does not muddy the language at all.
16:45:00 <pikhq> ehird: My complaints are two-fold: OCaml, and .NET.
16:45:06 <oerjan> ehird: i doubt the type systems are compatible.
16:45:11 <ehird> You just hate every language that isn't Haskell.
16:45:21 <pikhq> Not *every* language!
16:45:31 <pikhq> ... There's something to be said for the untyped lambda calculus.
16:45:34 <ehird> have you ever actually used OCaml
16:45:36 <lament> i hate every language that is or isn't Haskell
16:45:45 <pikhq> No, I'm just being silly on IRC.
16:46:02 <oerjan> i recall reading that F# does type inference somewhat unintuitively for classes
16:46:43 <oerjan> (since hindley-milner does not go well with subtyping)
16:47:03 <ehird> Subtyping is nice.
16:47:13 <ehird> I want subtyping a lot when Haskelling.
16:52:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: lambert is being very sensible today
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17:39:41 <oerjan> ^ul (S)::^(~:(o)~^~:^):^
17:39:41 <fungot> Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output!
17:39:44 <ehird> i think i dreamed something
17:39:48 <ehird> then forgot it was a dream later
17:42:39 <ehird> i think i do that a lot
17:44:50 <oerjan> yes, you are already forgetting that this is a dream
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18:24:47 <ehird> "I am an atheist who wants to become religious again. Ask me anything." // grr @ people who don't make a distinction between dogmatic atheism and rationalism
18:24:59 <ehird> you're running ext3 except with extents!
18:25:11 <ehird> you're running ext2 except with journaling and extents
18:25:59 <pikhq> ehird: And btrees.
18:45:24 -!- ehird has set topic: This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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19:06:29 <augur> ehird: i love you.
19:06:43 <ehird> why thank you augur
19:07:24 <augur> thae topic is brilliant
19:08:37 <ehird> thanks, i wrote that in february i think :P
19:09:17 <oerjan> despite being nearly unable to type due to the biting cold
19:09:58 <augur> oejan: you stole that from me :|
19:10:15 <augur> saying angkor in response to wat
19:10:32 <ehird> angkor in response to wat
19:10:40 <augur> well thats what i thought
19:10:43 <augur> but noone fucking gets it
19:10:47 <ehird> i actually guessed oerjan would do it this time :)
19:10:51 <ehird> augur: i had to google it first time.
19:10:58 <augur> sometimes i say thom
19:11:13 <augur> because angkor thom is both more obscure and more interestng than angkor wat
19:11:30 <augur> and that just confuses people. :D
19:11:48 <augur> SOMETIMES i say "soup" and people are like "huh?"
19:11:53 <augur> so i clarify with "wat soup"
19:11:57 <augur> and they're still confused
19:12:05 <ehird> Fun fact: the OS X system sound "Sosumi" (so sue me) was a reference to Apple Corps v. Apple Computer; it's a xylophone, so technically that counts as distributing music (tenuously)
19:12:15 <ehird> (Proof from Infallopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi)
19:12:19 <augur> so i explain that its a kind of soup form around angkor wat in cambodia, used to greet people
19:13:35 <oerjan> augur: no such thing, says google
19:13:44 <augur> no such thing as what
19:14:18 <ehird> <augur> Phallopedia
19:14:21 <ehird> let's make Phalluspedia
19:14:35 <ehird> an encyclopedia about cocks
19:14:41 * oerjan swats ehird for mangling greek morphology
19:14:55 * oerjan forgot the swatter -----###
19:14:56 <ehird> * augur's phallus swats oerjan for etc
19:15:47 <ehird> <augur> .... I'm so edgy because I use the wrong number of dots
19:17:42 <ehird> The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s
19:17:46 <ehird> ense/to cut off a poem on the brink.
19:18:23 <ehird> Also weird rhyming scheme; ABAsortofBBA
19:18:52 <oerjan> !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude sense/to cut off a poem on the brink."
19:19:10 <ehird> !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s"
19:19:25 <ehird> Bitch. That was the joke.
19:19:25 <oerjan> i was gonna check that
19:19:33 <augur> http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Staples-Center/photo//090807/482/014ee302e9be4f0a89a4eeca91a2e595//s:/ap/20090808/ap_en_ot/us_michael_jackson_insurance;_ylt=AgTPYYGRfmU9P0ms7L75FsZY24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dmZwOWFyBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDaW50aGlzaGFuZG91 << look at me i'm michael jackson and i rehearse in CG environments that are photoshopped poorly!
19:21:50 <oerjan> some day photoshopping will get so good that no one manages to detect it, at least officially. unofficially mental hospitals start filling up with CG experts who claim they can detect photoshopping artifacts in reality.
19:23:13 <augur> oerjan have i told you my reasoning for why the world might be a simulation? x3
19:25:08 <augur> long story short, 3, maybe 4 of the features of the universe's fundamental design are the sort of thing you'd add to a large scale universe simulation to make it easier to computer
19:26:21 <ehird> the simulation argument is wrong.
19:26:33 <augur> it probably is, but even so its fun
19:27:40 <Pthing> what are these three maybe four features
19:28:02 <ehird> augur being able to spout bullshit
19:28:06 <ehird> and people taking the simulation argument seriously
19:28:12 <Pthing> that is a really good feature
19:28:12 <oerjan> support the factory union
19:28:12 <ehird> thus distracting them from actually thinking and looking
19:28:21 <ehird> which would cause them to find all the flaws in the approximations
19:28:51 <augur> pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location
19:29:22 <ehird> augur that adds up to five
19:29:28 <ehird> you just had to add one or two more.
19:29:41 <Pthing> actually i think he's saying I'm the fourth fundamental feature of the universe
19:29:47 <Pthing> and he used a colon instead of a comma
19:30:08 <ehird> another argument against the simulation argument: why the heck would you want to simulate this universe?
19:30:17 <Pthing> also "simulating what?"
19:30:19 <oerjan> stealth terrorists from uranus
19:30:23 <Pthing> the answer appears to be
19:30:31 <ehird> they haven't intervened, they've just run one presumably not entirely unlike their own (they couldn't imagine simulating something too different from their universe; almost certainly)
19:30:35 <ehird> what the fuck is the point
19:30:36 <augur> pthing: what do you mean?
19:30:41 <Pthing> <ehird> those are two.
19:30:41 <Pthing> <augur> pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location
19:30:50 <Pthing> relativity demolished the first two, quantum the second
19:31:00 <ehird> BUT THAT LEAVES THE THIRD
19:31:01 <Pthing> if you remove these "easier to compute" features
19:31:05 <augur> what do you mean "demolished"?
19:31:16 <Pthing> you are left with a 19th century cosmos
19:31:30 <augur> i dont follow what you're saying, pthing
19:31:34 <ehird> this universe would be way way way easier to simulate if we did one thing
19:31:35 <Pthing> which is the more-real-than-real universe that the real universe is just a computational simulation of
19:31:37 <ehird> ELIMINATE QUANTUM MECAHNICS
19:31:53 <Pthing> ehird, no apparently it is a simplification?
19:31:58 <augur> ehird, i dont think it would
19:32:01 <ehird> classical mechanics gets like 99.999999999% of shit right, and fuck the rest
19:32:12 <augur> because then you'd have to actually calculate all particle motion and so forth
19:32:13 <ehird> we would just try experiments and conclude yep that classical shit is the bomb
19:32:31 <Pthing> you point to those as features that are put in to make the universe easier to compute
19:32:32 <augur> its far easier to just leave particle positions as probabilistic things that dont have to be calculated all the time
19:32:41 <augur> pthing: yes, i do.
19:32:45 <ehird> do you know anything about QM
19:32:48 <Pthing> that means in the hyper-real universe
19:32:49 <ehird> no way that shit simplifies vs classical
19:32:52 <Pthing> they're not there, right?
19:33:06 <augur> ehird: i think it does!
19:33:16 <ehird> augur: because you're not a physicist, you're a linguist on crack
19:33:17 <augur> pthing: who knows. the hyper-real might not even be like our universe at all!
19:33:28 <augur> ehird: actually i was a physics major before i was a linguistics major
19:33:36 <ehird> i can see why you switched
19:33:39 <Pthing> augur, well whatever, *a* hyper-real universe that our universe is simulating, right?
19:33:51 <ehird> Pthing: whoa you mixed that up there
19:33:55 <ehird> that sentence is freaky shit.
19:34:06 <Pthing> dont worry little one these ideas are VERY HARD
19:34:14 <augur> if the simulation hypothesis is correct, sure!
19:34:18 <Pthing> real scienticians are afraid of them
19:34:27 <ehird> Pthing: dude dude you said that our universe is simulating our simulator
19:34:28 <Pthing> the hyper-real universe is, in fact, Newtonian
19:34:29 <ehird> that must have been a typo :P
19:34:46 <augur> he's just a Scheme fan
19:34:58 <augur> METACIRCULAR UNIVERSE
19:35:05 <Pthing> is just the same thing as people who thought quantum mechanics and relativity were funny tricks
19:35:12 <Pthing> and Newton got it all right via unaided reason
19:35:37 <augur> pthing, iiii dont think so. you're assuming that the "hyperreal universe" is newtonian, when it could very well be completely different and non-newtonian
19:35:48 <ehird> stop right there for one second augur
19:35:53 <Pthing> The hyper-real universe is like our universe
19:35:54 <augur> i think its a mistake to assume that the only two options are newtonian and relativoquantumic
19:35:55 <ehird> i want you to do some thinking for me
19:35:57 <Pthing> minus these computational aids
19:36:06 <augur> but why would you assume that it's like our universe at all? :o
19:36:13 <augur> ehird: im listening, talk. jesus.
19:36:16 <Pthing> well because that is by definition
19:36:26 <Pthing> I'm not saying our universe is simulating the hyperpeople's universe
19:36:28 <ehird> augur: give me the mechanics of a universe that are consistent, result in complex patterns, and are relatively stable
19:36:30 <Pthing> just *a* hyperuniverse
19:36:36 <ehird> and make them totally unlike anything we've ever dreamt of
19:36:57 <Pthing> and *the particular* hyperuniverse our computer is simulating appears to be our universe - computational flaws
19:37:00 <ehird> congratulations, YOU LOSE
19:37:17 <augur> ehird: congratulations, i dont
19:37:26 <augur> pthing: i dont get what you're saying
19:37:34 <ehird> you lost in fact as soon as you said "the simulation argument"
19:37:43 <augur> what universe you're talking about, for one
19:37:49 <augur> ehird: you said it first :D
19:38:18 <Pthing> i am talking about the universe that the hyperpeople want to learn things about to which our universe is a computational simulation
19:38:29 <ehird> augur stop embarrassing yourself
19:39:03 <oerjan> hyperpurple people eaters
19:39:08 <augur> pthing, no no when i said its a simulation i just mean simulated, not a simulation of /something/
19:39:13 <ehird> nonsense, hyperpeople just make huge simulation projects of wildly different universes that still requires oodles of computation FOR FUN!
19:39:19 <Pthing> oh, but that's implicit!
19:39:25 <Pthing> You don't just have A Simulation
19:39:26 <ehird> we're three year old bobby's first universe
19:39:27 <augur> in the same way that like, The Sims is a simulation, but its not really a simulation of our universe
19:39:33 <augur> i eman, i guess in some sense it is
19:39:44 <Pthing> it's a simulation of a particularly human-sized suburban american part of it
19:39:52 <augur> not all simulations are simulations of preexisting things!
19:40:17 <augur> which was a particularly fun game, btw.
19:40:17 <Pthing> um, that's a puzzle game
19:40:24 <augur> its a simulated environment!
19:40:29 <ehird> wow you lose augur
19:40:32 <ehird> you massively lose.
19:41:12 <augur> watch me not shut up
19:41:22 <augur> you know why i wont shut up? because your opinion is irrelevant
19:41:22 <ehird> actually he can make you shut up.
19:41:25 <ehird> cool feature of irc clients.
19:41:28 <augur> how does that make you feel?
19:41:33 <augur> knowing that you're irrelevant?
19:41:37 <Pthing> "I think the universe is a simulation by some hyperpeople of a newtonian universe"
19:41:54 <Pthing> "slobber slobber sir isaac newton slobber slobber"
19:42:11 <augur> pthing you're so silly
19:42:21 <ehird> i believe you now augur
19:42:24 <ehird> i will have it etched in stone
19:42:30 <ehird> "opposers you're so silly"
19:42:39 <ehird> — augur, founder of the hyperpeoplenewtonianquantumosimulatron theory
19:42:49 <augur> pthing isnt even opposing anything
19:43:00 <oerjan> this opossum is ur-elephant
19:43:22 <augur> ehird: well, seeing as how im not saying the universe is a simulation, no
19:43:33 <ehird> then what the fuck ARE you saying
19:43:42 <augur> maybe you should read, ehird
19:43:53 <ehird> Pthing: isn't that what he said?
19:43:57 <ehird> because i'm fairly sure
19:43:59 <ehird> that's what he fucking said.
19:44:01 <augur> i said like half an hour ago that the universe isnt a simulation.
19:44:08 <Pthing> I do not know what you *are* saying
19:44:21 <Pthing> apart from your points aren't very good
19:44:28 <ehird> augur: if you can't communicate with someone of any intelligence, that's your problem
19:44:31 <ehird> not the listener's
19:44:39 <augur> <ehird> the simulation argument is wrong.
19:44:39 <augur> <augur> it probably is, but even so its fun
19:44:39 <ehird> come back when you can state in a sentence WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
19:44:46 <augur> WHATS THAT? ME AGREEING WITH YOU EHIRD?
19:44:49 <ehird> generally for the purpose of argument,
19:44:53 <ehird> we assume you believe what you're arguing for
19:45:11 <ehird> for instance, "Devil's advocate: Nazis rock" "No they don't, Nazis don't rock, you're stupid" "I NEVER SAID NAZIS ROCK"
19:45:24 <ehird> "...that's what you're arguing for."
19:45:32 <ehird> "No it's not, I said half an hour ago that nazis don't rock"
19:45:47 <ehird> i'm proud to have never made a good analogy in my life.
19:46:32 <augur> pthing, stop telling people to shut up.
19:47:03 <augur> hey i just realized, both pthing and ehird are in england
19:47:09 <augur> and theyre both homosexuals!
19:47:21 <augur> well, ok, ehird is 13, not a homosexual
19:47:23 <ehird> yeah I'm actually Pthing.
19:47:35 <ehird> Pthing is gay because, pee thing, you see
19:47:37 <ehird> it refers to a penis.
19:47:56 <augur> pthing, its "om". your mantra sucks.
19:48:05 <augur> get with the program, gosh
19:48:06 <ehird> it's the skeptic's mantra
19:48:25 <ehird> HOLY FUCK 360 DEGREE HOLOGRAPHIC DISPLAY
19:48:25 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VusJwGTQQ
19:49:25 <augur> its still got a spinning component tho :(
19:49:55 <augur> its got a spinning mirror
19:50:07 <ehird> it must spin fast enough to work
19:50:13 <ehird> if you get your head chopped off, your own fucking fault
19:50:18 <augur> we've had spinning-surface "holograms" for ages
19:50:22 <augur> like 20 years or something
19:50:48 <ehird> who fucking cares, it looks awesome
19:50:59 <augur> its been looking awesome for 20 years or something!
19:51:13 <ehird> add some tactile gloves to that and you've got the most awesome "futuristic" computer ever
19:51:30 <augur> sure, one that you cant actually touch because your hand will get fucked up
19:51:46 <ehird> the mirrors aren't actually in the hologram are they
19:51:57 <augur> the hologram reflects off the mirror
19:52:05 <ehird> i thought it was like
19:52:08 <ehird> you need a circular chamber
19:52:11 <ehird> and the mirror spins around the edges
19:52:15 <ehird> projecting it into the middle
19:52:24 <augur> but that is an interesting idea
19:52:37 <ehird> have to spin really fast though
19:52:46 <ehird> and that'd be uber noisy
19:52:56 <ehird> but, it should work
19:53:03 <augur> itd be difficult to achieve, i think
19:53:09 <augur> and itd be pretty big
19:53:28 <ehird> wouldn't a mirror spinning really fast be equivalent to uh
19:53:32 <augur> and youd have to look down at it
19:53:47 <ehird> augur: not if you put them in the (transparnet) ceiling and floor
19:53:51 <augur> the mirror spins around its center, so that its pointing at different places throughout its spin
19:53:54 <ehird> as well as the walls
19:54:02 <augur> ah, so a big room then
19:54:07 <augur> that would be veeerry tricky
19:54:26 <ehird> augur: just move the mirrors with magic
19:54:29 <ehird> magic can do it fast enough!
19:54:41 <augur> but can it hold the mirror glass together, thats the question!
19:55:14 <augur> theres a planetarium-like thing at some university thats intended for something like that
19:55:17 <augur> there was a TED talk about it
19:55:26 <augur> it doesnt use holography
19:55:35 <augur> but at the scale and distance used, it doesnt matter much
19:55:37 <ehird> but anyway, that + big circular room + antigravity + tactile glove thingies + huge fucking earmuffs to block out all the awful noise from the spinning and levitation = BEST INTERFACE EVER
19:56:11 <augur> sounds like the gunnery interface in that one Babylon 5 movie
19:57:04 <ehird> alas it is not easy to maneuver in the kind of antigravity that doesn't involve a very fast plane
19:57:17 <ehird> or indeed that kind too; if you could just sort of speed up movements it'd be fine
19:57:19 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEP#Results
19:58:06 <ehird> just do it in space
19:58:07 <augur> RUININ MAH SPERMENTS
19:58:14 <ehird> no interference at all!
19:58:27 <augur> yeah but then the alien space ships will fuck it up!
19:58:39 <augur> slereah_, you work in the cern area right?
19:58:46 <Slereah_> My quantum physics teacher told us
19:58:48 <augur> or do you just contract out to nantes?
19:59:05 <Slereah_> Although he just told us about the train, though
19:59:44 <ehird> it'll probably be simpler to make good VR than to do the awesome interface :P
20:00:02 <augur> have you seen Lawnmower Man?
20:00:35 <Slereah_> Is it about the retard who gains superpowers?
20:00:36 <ehird> i think i saw it when i was a kiddie
20:00:43 <augur> slereah: not quite
20:00:45 <ehird> Slereah_: if i'm thinking about the same movie, yes
20:00:50 <ehird> well not superpowers but
20:00:53 <augur> retarded kid used in experiments with VR to boost intelligence
20:01:06 <ehird> no no no don't call them experiments with vr
20:01:07 <Slereah_> Come on, he makes a lawnmower in some dude's mind!
20:01:08 <augur> in the sequel he ends up creating a massive virtual world where people can upload their minds
20:01:10 <ehird> what it was is flashing images
20:01:20 <ehird> and that made him clever
20:01:26 <augur> by playing a video game
20:01:42 <augur> the game they played was a lot like the pre-release version of Wipeout, oddly
20:01:50 <augur> which looks pretty interesting
20:01:53 <ehird> wipeout is a good game
20:02:06 <augur> ehird, if youve never seen the pre-release version, check out the Hackers movie
20:02:07 <ehird> erm i dunno if i played wipeout
20:02:14 <ehird> augur: no i'm never watching that movie
20:02:24 <augur> the game they play on the big tv is the prerelased wipeout
20:02:26 <augur> aww ehird why not?
20:03:39 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
20:03:46 <augur> ehirds worried that hes going to start thinking that hacking involves lots of pretty pictures on old mac laptops
20:04:19 <augur> when everyone knows that it involves lots of pretty pictures on new ubuntu+compiz fusion laptops!
20:04:50 <ehird> they don't call them laptops any more augur
20:04:59 <ehird> alas the lap is now obsolete as NOTEBOOKS are
20:05:14 <augur> i hate my sperm anyway.
20:05:36 <ehird> you can tell they actually like to be on your lap because they get all hot
20:05:36 <pikhq> REPUBLICAN RETARDS THINK THAT OBAMA IS PROPOSING MAKING SOYLENT GREEN REALITY. D':
20:05:48 <ehird> pikhq: Sounds like a modest proposal to me.
20:06:31 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2Jh2i7JgY Wow.
20:08:20 <augur> americans are stupid
20:08:24 <augur> this is a general fact
20:08:36 <ehird> You're such a bitch, bitch.
20:08:39 <augur> republicans as much as democrats
20:08:49 <augur> ehird: but i'm your bitch li
20:09:13 <augur> li is one character left of ;o
20:09:32 <pikhq> augur: I'm neither. The Democrats are too right for my tastes.
20:09:58 <augur> but only because i favor the destruction of the whole political system as it currently exists. :D
20:10:04 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, there? I have a plan9 installer question: How do I get it to use Swedish keyboard layout. I forgot since last time I did a plan9 in qemu
20:10:50 <ehird> Not in the installer you don't, afaik.
20:11:04 <augur> guys: $100/£50 for the first person who can figure out what this translaiton SHOULD have looked like:
20:11:05 <augur> آڈولف میركلے KFC died of her father when took his family business توجدید on the lines while it too much development soon .
20:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also where is / on US layout? And +
20:11:19 <ehird> augur: I like to fuck goats
20:11:26 <ehird> AnMaster: / is after .
20:11:35 <ehird> qwertyuiop[] (either enter or \)
20:11:37 <augur> it is infact supposed to have been "When Adolf Merckle took charge of his family's business after the death of his father, he greatly improved the business very quickly through a process of modernization."
20:13:26 <ehird> Also, don't do venti.
20:13:44 <ehird> Unless you have a RAID with a buncha disks.
20:14:06 <augur> i'll raid your disks alright
20:14:20 <AnMaster> I want to try venti that is why I'm doing this :P
20:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, that's stupid.
20:14:52 <ehird> Because you don't have a lot of disk, and venti/fossil isn't exactly the most compact storage mechanism.
20:15:11 <AnMaster> 15 GB disk image. True not that much
20:15:13 <oerjan> fossils are too thinly spread out
20:15:55 <AnMaster> fuck the screen dimming thingy in ubuntu btw. it doesn't work well
20:16:07 <ehird> Hmm, I don't actually have a spare x86/BIOS box anywhere
20:17:24 <AnMaster> btw. it plan9 cd doesn't even boot under virtualbox
20:18:15 <AnMaster> or rather, with the ICH6 IDE controller (not the default one) it does boot (very slowly) but then freezes when it tries to start the GUI
20:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: also use his 9grid image
20:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, tried sata too. didn't work well
20:18:39 <ehird> instead of the install iso
20:18:44 <ehird> that's what he told me to do at least
20:18:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the url now again
20:19:10 <ehird> http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/gridtoolsplus.tgz
20:19:16 <ehird> http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz is just the image
20:19:39 <AnMaster> and qemu can't make use of the cool VT-x thingy
20:20:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure it can.
20:20:20 <pikhq> Just need to have kvm in your kernel.
20:20:22 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that doesn't use hardware virtualization iirc? Only does some stuff in kernel to speed it up. Since kqemu works on my old sempron too
20:20:37 <ehird> your sempron has hardware virtualisation
20:20:46 <pikhq> ehird: That's not what kqemu does.
20:20:50 <ehird> plan 9 is very frugal with resources
20:20:59 <ehird> so vt-x is totally unneeded
20:21:06 <pikhq> And no, Semprons don't have it.
20:21:10 <AnMaster> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm
20:21:16 <coppro> kvm only works if you have a processor that supports it :(
20:21:36 * AnMaster looks around in qemu-launcher for a KVM option
20:21:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Fabrice Bellard also wrote a Linux kernel module (with preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows) named KQEMU or QEMU Accelerator, which notably speeds up x86 emulation on x86 platforms. This is accomplished by running user mode code directly on the host computer's CPU, and using processor and peripheral emulation only for kernel mode and real mode code
20:22:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that isn't VT-x :P which was my point
20:22:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
20:22:42 <coppro> kqemu can accelerate kernel mode code, too
20:22:53 <pikhq> coppro: It's a hack.
20:22:53 <AnMaster> I wonder if having virtualbox and kvm running at the same time will cause issues
20:23:28 <ehird> I'm typing vertically
20:23:34 <ehird> It is uncomfortable
20:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: takes like 30m.
20:23:44 <AnMaster> maybe no DMA? though I said yes when it asked if I wanted to use DMA
20:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, about 15 minutes passed of the "installing file system" phase. And it is at 15%
20:24:22 <AnMaster> I don't think that will add up to 30 minutes
20:24:40 <ehird> have you ever used windows' file copy dialog AnMaster
20:25:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. right. but a) this shows ETA in percent, not minutes b) the percent seems to be going at a steady rate, and has all the time
20:27:02 <ehird> i'm trying to imagine a desk too small to fit a notebook.
20:27:10 <AnMaster> I can't fit the throttle/joystick on there when the laptop is also on it
20:27:18 <AnMaster> that is, throttle/joystick connected to desktop
20:27:28 <AnMaster> and keyboard/mouse for desktop there too
20:27:29 <ehird> you'll have to ask augur about joysticks
20:27:33 <ehird> can't advise there
20:28:07 <AnMaster> as in: full size keyboard, mouse, large joystick, large throttle, laptop
20:28:24 <ehird> i already told you that i can't advise about joysticks.
20:29:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I don't need advice. there is just no way to fit it :P
20:29:46 <ehird> i'm sure augur is an expert on extra-large joysticks
20:31:37 <AnMaster> ah maybe with laptop near the back of the desktop, since it is just installing atm, don't need to type anything
20:31:51 <ehird> right! it's always important that your joystick fits snugly.
20:32:11 <AnMaster> I want to play vegastrike. that is why
20:32:28 <ehird> sure, sure, ...play is an important part of human existence
20:32:34 <ehird> just don't break anything
20:33:16 <AnMaster> anyway, I don't know about "extra large". the base "box" of the throttle is 17x17 cm. about the same for the joystick
20:34:13 <AnMaster> throttle? depending on what position it is in.. between 14 and 20 cm it seems
20:34:49 <ehird> that's more than average
20:35:12 <AnMaster> joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too
20:35:23 <AnMaster> which is about 5 cm for either
20:35:42 <AnMaster> ehird, is it? Never owned any other joystick
20:35:51 <ehird> ...i don't think many people do...
20:36:04 <augur> my joysticks are indeed extra large
20:36:24 <ehird> [20:35] AnMaster: joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too
20:36:29 <augur> i have an 17" and an 18" joystick. ;o
20:36:40 <ehird> i have a 1000" joystick, true story.
20:36:57 <ehird> can get hard to carry around, like to lan parties
20:37:02 <ehird> and people like to play with it a lot there
20:37:05 <ehird> kinda attracts a crowd
20:37:07 <AnMaster> it uses the hall effect for sensing the position of the joystick. Rather than messy potentiometers
20:37:10 <augur> oh sorry i thought we were talking about dildos
20:37:26 <ehird> AND THUS THE EXTENDED INNUENDO ENDS
20:37:31 <AnMaster> augur, no. Joysticks. As in real joysticks
20:37:37 <augur> anmaster has no sense of humor.
20:37:38 <ehird> real joysticks, AnMaster
20:37:38 <AnMaster> and yes I know what ehird was trying to do :P
20:37:40 <ehird> that's what we're talking about,.
20:37:49 * augur plays with ehirds joystick
20:37:50 <ehird> AnMaster: retcon retcon retcon
20:37:56 <ehird> (erection erection erection?)
20:38:02 <ehird> why you gotta do that augur
20:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually realised it at "<ehird> that's HUGE!"
20:38:15 <AnMaster> because I though: "no I'm pretty sure it isn't"
20:38:15 <ehird> AnMaster: your naivety knows no bounds
20:38:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I'm probably naive when it comes to innuendo
20:39:09 <ehird> the joystick is where? in your end? oh.
20:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, do you like blinkenlights?
20:39:53 <ehird> no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem
20:40:04 <augur> another translation thingy: "In his words : ' is the operation was now are to Provide INFORMATION ABOUT IT ."
20:40:18 <augur> apparently machine translations are Start To YELL AT YOU!!!
20:40:40 <ehird> AnMaster: uhh, howso
20:41:17 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't you supposed to like shiny blinking lights and such?
20:41:27 <ehird> okay, let me get this straight
20:41:29 <ehird> you made a reference
20:41:37 <ehird> and then you accused me of like
20:41:39 <ehird> breaking the reference
20:41:43 <ehird> youuuuuu're stuuuuupid
20:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I didn't intend it as a reference like that. I intended it as a normal word for the mentioned concept (that of blinking lights)
20:42:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights
20:42:49 <AnMaster> <ehird> no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem <-- read "no" as "nor"
20:42:55 <AnMaster> as in, you didn't like the reference
20:43:28 <ehird> guh electron microscopes use electrons
20:43:33 <ehird> i thought they looked at electrons
20:44:19 <ehird> it isn't _that_ far-fetched
20:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, they use electrons due to the shorter wavelength. In order to be able to "see" smaller details
20:44:55 <AnMaster> at least that is what I learnt in the physics course in school
20:45:43 <ehird> listening is never mandatory :P
20:46:23 <AnMaster> qemu emulates a Pentium2? *HUH*
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21:21:26 <augur> ive started packing my books
21:21:53 <augur> ive got almost three boxes full already
21:22:08 <augur> and im only done with the shelf along the top part of my wall
21:25:26 <Pthing> electron microscopes do look at electrons, though :|
21:25:39 <AnMaster> ehird, question: as you know my laptop is high dpi. How do I make it possible to actually read what it says in plan9 on it :D
21:25:51 <AnMaster> as in, where do I set DPI/font size stuff
21:27:04 <AnMaster> ok. good luck with finding large enough boxes
21:27:39 <augur> oh i have, dont worry
21:31:42 <AnMaster> I get this across my plan9 screen atm: "err 2; arena arenas00 creation time after last write time"
21:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: plan9 fonts are bitmaps iirc
21:50:01 <ehird> so tough shit, scale up the window
21:50:11 <ehird> or use a bigger font
22:08:54 * pikhq has a low opinion of bitmap fonts
22:12:22 <ehird> It doesn't exactly matter unless you have good typefaces.
22:12:39 <ehird> The Plan 9 fonts are non-free though, which is dumb.
22:13:10 <ehird> (Of course, just because they're non-free doesn't mean they could just bundle Helvetica or something; they presumably aren't paying royalties on the current fonts.)
22:15:45 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: oh, that issue came up on 9fans recently - let me see if I can find the thread - the basic cause I believe is using venti and not allowing venti data dumps to complete, along with clock sync stuff
22:16:12 <ehird> ha, venti breaks everything!
22:17:22 <mycroftiv> well, heres the thing - plan9 was designed to *not* run everything on the same box. its possible to do so, but stuff like the massive dumps of venti prints to your console because of frequent reboots tend to crop up
22:18:21 <mycroftiv> if this is a qemu vm, when i use venti and plan9 in qemu, i have to set up the venti server as a userspace process on a different qemu VM - trying to stuff a full venti/fossil/auth/cpu/terminal into a single qemu VM has never worked well for me
22:19:03 <mycroftiv> mostly because the qemu virtualization layer cant seem to handle it well - an all-in-one setup seems to work OK on native hardware or in vmware, but qemu just folds under the pressure
22:21:01 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: if you are interested in grappling with the 'arenas00 creation time' prints, look in http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07 and search for 'arenas' and you will find a long thread about exactly your issue
22:21:08 <mycroftiv> the cause, and how to eliminate it
22:21:31 <ehird> <AnMaster> Meh, that's work. *GIVES UP*
22:21:39 <ehird> <AnMaster> Further proof that Plan 9 sucks.
22:22:18 <mycroftiv> in terms of having the system be usable by people without extensive study and experience - plan9 is absolutely awful, that is for sure
22:22:40 <mycroftiv> i would say that learning how to use plan9 in any 'real' way took me almost 9 months of 10 hours a day study
22:23:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: uhh really?
22:23:21 <mycroftiv> i think plan9 is so amazing i devote large amounts of my time trying to figure out how to make the learning/setup curve less insane
22:23:23 <ehird> i did shit with plan 9 in hours
22:23:34 <ehird> got it set up, looked at the
22:23:34 <mycroftiv> ehird: i doubt you did the things that make plan9 'important' in just a few hours
22:23:43 <ehird> used acme to hack out some code
22:23:45 <mycroftiv> if you havent had a cpu/auth server running before, imo youve never 'really' used plan 9 at all
22:23:47 <ehird> tried to use /dev/tcp and failed
22:23:54 <ehird> mycroftiv: meh, that involves having multiple boxes
22:24:17 <mycroftiv> the 'real' thing plan9 is supposed to do is distribute its functions over a minimum of 4 boxes, really
22:24:30 <ehird> multiple boxes = noise + space + money + unportability
22:24:50 <mycroftiv> well, thats why VMs are so important - i have 5 VMs running on an inexpensive desktop box currently
22:25:07 <mycroftiv> so moore's law and virtualization solved those issues
22:25:14 <ehird> distributing across the same hardware is pointless!
22:25:18 <ehird> it's semantically null! it does nothing!
22:25:29 <ehird> it's just extra overhead
22:25:42 <ehird> any OS that requires such a thing just has a bad process/communication model
22:28:29 <mycroftiv> ehird: any electronic circuit that requires more than a few transistors is clearly overdesigned and inefficient.
22:28:35 <mycroftiv> computers were a mistake to begin with!
22:28:51 <ehird> What is it with this channel and strawmen lately?
22:30:02 <augur> deep like the mariana's trench
22:30:33 <mycroftiv> i get confused between the marianas trench and the mindano trench
22:31:06 <augur> one is named after mariana
22:31:12 <augur> the other is named after mindano.
22:31:15 <ehird> is named after mindano
22:31:29 <mycroftiv> that clears things up, i hadnt noticed the difference in names before
22:32:02 <augur> i figured it was probably mindanao, but you never know. :D
22:32:47 <ehird> i ought to write a trivial bit of unexecutable os code so i can decide it's tedious and give up.
22:33:33 <mycroftiv> ehird: let me try to put it historically - the concept of plan9 was that bell labs would own and run all the hardware (cpus/disk servers/etc) and you would just have a cheap terminal that you dialed up the system on - and in your office, same thing, central machine room, cheap user terminals
22:33:50 <mycroftiv> so that was the usage scenario and model the OS was designed for, circa 1990
22:34:00 <ehird> thin clients failed.
22:34:05 <ehird> and that's a good thing
22:34:24 <ehird> thin clients are fundamentally bad, tho
22:34:59 <mycroftiv> well, i dont see how you can say that - i mean, all of us now use our computers often as 'thin clients' given the modern web and 'all i ever use is the browser' style mainstream computer use
22:35:12 <ehird> don't get me started
22:35:49 <mycroftiv> so as a practical matter, the 'thin client' mode of use is now incredibly popular - and i know lots of people who do all their work on remote xen hosted stuff delivered via citrix, also
22:36:01 <ehird> plenty of things are incredibly popular
22:36:16 <ehird> thin clients are so popular right now becaus
22:36:19 <ehird> they're CONVENIENT
22:36:27 <ehird> due to the bloated heap of modern computing
22:36:32 <ehird> but that's not required
22:36:42 <ehird> sure, thin clients are good in a lot of cases
22:36:46 <ehird> not so much thin client
22:36:52 <ehird> as a thick client that gets external resources
22:37:00 <ehird> a thin client has the display dictated to, just does IO
22:37:06 <ehird> a thick client with external objects is much more powerful
22:37:20 <ehird> and, even then, plenty of things could work better locally if only it was *more convenient* to do so
22:37:34 <mycroftiv> anyway, all this for me is subpoint to what im trying to say, which is that recreating an analog of the original plan9 architecture with multiple VMs on a single machine isnt pointless at all, any more than running more than one *application* at a time is pointlesss, because thats all you are doing!
22:38:04 <ehird> it just shows to me that if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol to do more than one computation at once effectively, then its model is outdated
22:38:21 <mycroftiv> if i run a venti server VM, and a fossil server VM, and a cpu server VM, and then a terminal Vm (to give the extreme) - im just running 4 different software applications on one computer, its just a 'heavy' way to do so
22:38:28 <ehird> bloody double spaces
22:38:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: a lot of redundancy there too, i see your point,
22:38:55 <ehird> and i get that with plan 9 it's "needed" to emulate the distribution this way,
22:39:02 <ehird> I just don't think it's the good way, as opposed to a hack
22:39:05 <mycroftiv> the technical problem is actually the qemu virtualization layer being inadequate as a direct practical matter
22:39:24 <mycroftiv> so the software that is at fault is qemu, not plan9, in the original source incident i believe
22:39:45 <ehird> ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22:40:00 <mycroftiv> (though plan9 people would say that you are supposed to 'know' that after you first install plan9, you should probably *not* reboot until your initial archival dump from fossil to venti completes)
22:42:01 <mycroftiv> ehird: but, if you want to find evidence to support your assertion about "if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol..." is a comment in the source code near an early boot bring up of IP stack saying "this is such a crock"
22:42:35 <mycroftiv> the fact that the process of trying to accomadate the average modern home user by figuring out how to stuff all the necessary components of a plan9 system into a single box that can be booted all at once - not so perfect, even by their standards
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22:43:21 <mycroftiv> in the original system, the disk storage servers didnt even run the same kernel as the cpus and terminals
22:44:14 <mycroftiv> it was originally, code-wise, a 'different os' for each of the different functional components - over time that evolved and changed and some of the componenets were swapped out, like venti replacing the original archival data server
22:44:33 <ehird> have i mentioned recently that kernels suck?
22:44:38 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, thanks for that link
22:45:31 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: welcome back, good luck with your setup - as i mentioned venti+fossil boot system inside qemu has always been problematic for me
22:45:44 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, that is what I used yes
22:45:47 <ehird> AnMaster: the explanation involves big words
22:45:59 <ehird> brief summary http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html
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22:46:59 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you do scheduling of CPU time between objects?
22:47:14 * ehird hands AnMaster a "Didn't Read The Page At All" badge
22:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I read the first few lines
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22:47:42 <ehird> Well fuck you, I'm not your personal reading assistant.
22:47:51 <ehird> You can't read seven short paragraph
22:48:11 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: long story short - the answer is nontechnical but processes dont schedule themselves, they attach to another 'meta-object' that controls task switching
22:48:28 <ehird> sentence was over 10 words.
22:48:37 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, right... And that bit runs in ring0?
22:48:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has left (?).
22:48:51 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: as i said, the wiki page was nontechnical
22:48:58 <ehird> <AnMaster> Hur hur the hardware is what makes all design decisions hur hur
22:49:05 <ehird> <AnMaster> Abstraction? UNPOSSIBLE!!!
22:49:11 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, well. I'm wondering how the hell this could be implemented on x86 at least....
22:49:34 <AnMaster> due to it being the most common architecture
22:49:48 <AnMaster> (in this case x86 includes 64-bit variants)
22:50:07 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: my opinion as a practical matter is that your OS abstraction layer is above what you might call 'shim code' and that (just imo at least) in some ways the differences are semantic/conceptual more than anything else
22:50:27 <ehird> if you really can't imagine how to not have a kernel and just use attached procedures for task switching...
22:50:34 <ehird> then you're either hugely massively ignorant about how OSes work
22:50:36 <ehird> or just can't hack.
22:50:46 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me...
22:51:02 <ehird> AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.
22:51:04 <AnMaster> and kernel includes stuff like loadable drivers to me.
22:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, it is like inferno or such?
22:51:21 <ehird> <AnMaster> If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means.
22:51:21 <AnMaster> and yes, that is an unusual case.
22:51:24 <mycroftiv> thats why im saying its mostly semantics and conceptualizing - and some real differences in what functional tasks are located in what coe blocks - but still
22:52:28 <pikhq> My only comment on a no-kernel design is that it is probably very freaking hard to get working initially.
22:52:37 <ehird> ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
22:52:46 <ehird> we must be reading different articles
22:52:52 <ehird> because it's exactly as easy as a kernel system
22:53:00 <AnMaster> well, maybe a bit more accurate would be: whatever handles cpu scheduling, interrupt management, core memory management, doing the actual ring-0 code to do stuff like DMA and so on is the kernel
22:53:15 <ehird> <AnMaster> If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means.
22:53:38 <AnMaster> ehird, then provide *YOUR* definition of kernel
22:53:55 <pikhq> ehird: But you have to, like, do more design than "Alright, let's toy with the standard UNIX kernel design a bit".
22:54:04 <ehird> Do you want me to ship a copy of Wikipedia to your house?
22:54:06 <ehird> Would you like that?
22:54:15 <ehird> Or is it too fucking long didn't goddamn read.
22:54:38 <AnMaster> ehird,I find my definition quite fitting with the one on wikipedia
22:54:47 <pikhq> Basically, the thing making the design hard (IMO) is that you'd kinda be paving the way.
22:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, or do your system *trust all "traditionally userspace" code*
22:55:00 <pikhq> Not much of a criticsm, just a comment.
22:55:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's like a microkernel only more so.
22:55:41 <ehird> It is nothing like a microkernel at all.
22:55:46 <ehird> In fact, microkernels are possibly the antithesis of it.
22:56:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, he indicated everything ran in ring 0 above: "<ehird> AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.". Seems insecure if you are, say, browsing the web
22:56:28 <AnMaster> there will *always* be bugs in anything as complex as a web browser
22:56:29 <pikhq> "Make it so that as little is done in the kernel as possible" is a lot like "Make it so that the 'kernel' is a misnomer."
22:56:37 <ehird> AnMaster: You're truly an idiot.
22:56:58 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: thats right, the web is TEEEMING with exploits targeting a nonexistent operating system ;)
22:57:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: And the OS would be written in Smalltalk.
22:57:08 <ehird> AnMaster: No, because you never understand any of my justifications or rebut them with strawmen and faux-jokes because you're an idiot.
22:57:12 <ehird> So I'll settle for a personal insult.
22:57:15 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, well, assuming it would become popular. Which I also assume is a goal of every OS
22:57:35 <pikhq> The only exploits akin to, say, the crazy shit done on Windows pre-NT would be from bugs of the Smalltalk implementation.
22:57:46 <mycroftiv> nobody with any sense thinks any os is going to be popular unless it starts with a w, ends with s, and has indow in the middle
22:58:29 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, yet linux is not that uncommon nowdays. Popular might even be a good word for it. Though far from as popular as windows indeed.
22:58:31 * ehird remembers that his client has an ignore feature, unlike his previous one
23:00:06 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway as far as I can see, trusting all code that runs seems stupid. Surely running code in a ring != 0 has proven a good (which isn't same as "perfect") solution by now :P
23:01:10 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i have no opinion, and none of the stuff from tunes or that ehird has said actually seems to make any kind of statement one way or another in that regard - i think ehird was speaking more generally about the 'whole os being kernel' than what ring stuff was assigned to
23:01:11 <AnMaster> iirc also at least on x86 and x86_64 running everything in ring 0 would be suboptimal. As in: stuff like task switching and page tables are designed for a kernel/userspace split.
23:01:29 <AnMaster> at least that is what reading the architectural documentation for AMD64 seemed to indicate
23:02:12 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: from everything ive gathered from ehird, most of the things he talks about are always taking place at a layer of abstraction built up from the native hardware behavior
23:02:50 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, also, memory protection is good for other reasons too. Remember "app crashing crashed whole OS"? Wasn't that long ago that was the norm outside *nix
23:03:10 <ehird> [22:50] AnMaster: mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me...
23:03:10 <ehird> [22:51] ehird: AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.
23:03:14 <ehird> but that was just trolling him.
23:03:44 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, and I'm mostly interested in the actual implementation details. The low level stuff.
23:03:52 <AnMaster> which ehird seems to hate thinking about
23:04:27 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: yes, its obvious that you and ehird direct your thinking at different topics, and i myself agree that 90% (99%?) of the actual work tends to be struggling with that stuff to get the abstractions you want created and working right
23:04:42 <ehird> actually, my OS maps fairly directly to the hardware.
23:04:48 <ehird> moreso, dare I say, than Linux
23:04:52 <ehird> as it's just simpler.
23:04:55 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, was that agreeing with me or ehird?
23:05:07 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: its saying that you are talking past each other
23:05:25 * ehird attempts to think of a context in which mycroftiv's last line makes sense
23:05:27 <mycroftiv> ehird: do you know about um, whats it called, battlecruiser 3000 or something, and that guy's legendary flame wars on the net?
23:05:27 <pikhq> ehird: Certainly easier to add features to.
23:05:42 <pikhq> Hooray, modularity.
23:05:43 <mycroftiv> ehird: it makes sense when its obvious that you guys disagree on definitions
23:05:46 <ehird> Battlecruiser 3000AD (also known as [BC3K] in Usenet) is one of the longest-developed games in computer game history.
23:05:59 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I'm a fan of OSes like http://www.coyotos.org/ Imagine how much I will dislike a OS *not* caring about security
23:06:17 <mycroftiv> well, its interesting - and its a cautionary tale - it actually turned out to be a pretty good game, and the guy has a continuing series of later games that seem to have a fan community
23:06:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... But he's not not caring about security.
23:06:45 <ehird> is AnMaster accusing my OS of being insecure?
23:06:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, and gets angry when I want to know about how he implemented it
23:07:01 <ehird> does he know I'm doing a full fucking capability based system?
23:07:03 <ehird> with no exceptions?
23:07:12 <mycroftiv> however, the original game took forever to make and was notorious for the guy making it trolling the hell out of usenet by talking about how great his game was, before hed actually written much of it
23:07:15 <pikhq> You'll note that the OS is meant to be programmed in Smalltalk. Who needs hardware memory protection when the language itself guarantees memory safety?
23:07:20 <AnMaster> ehird, why not unignore me if you are going to ask what I just said...
23:07:31 <ehird> HURR BUT WHAT IF YOU HAVE A BUG IN THE INTERPRETER
23:07:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah. Well I didn't know that until a few minutes ago when ehird said it
23:07:43 <ehird> Oh, wait, Linux has the exact same problem. So do all kernel systems.
23:07:47 <ehird> Can I say "system calls"?
23:08:05 <pikhq> He's said it in the past, at least.
23:08:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have been away for most of the last few days
23:08:21 <mycroftiv> ehird: you should stop talking about your os as if its something that exists and is running now and has definite proven characteristics.
23:08:24 <pikhq> It's pretty damned clear he intends to do it all in Smalltalk, and have the Smalltalk implementation written in Forth.
23:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, your attempts at trolling fails when you are guessing at what I'm saying
23:08:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm not
23:08:42 <ehird> i'm talking about the fundamental design
23:08:52 <ehird> i.e., if these constraints aren't met, it isn't the OS
23:09:21 <mycroftiv> well, thats why i point to the battlecruiser 3000 example, because its so similar, in terms of the failures of communication between designer and people he was talking to
23:09:43 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i dunno, i always just google it when it crosses my mind to check in on it
23:10:09 <mycroftiv> it is now, yeah - its day of legendary usenet flame wars was a decade ago or something
23:10:50 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway I'm genuinely interested in how ehird is going to solve the actual implementation on x86/x86_64 while ensuring good performance. And good security.
23:11:43 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: just as i told ehird he shouldnt talk about his os as if it exists yet, i think its also silly for you to expect implementation details given that you know there isnt any code running yet
23:11:51 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I wonder what will become of DNF then...
23:12:41 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, well surely he must have considered "will this design actually work on hardware that is likely to be available"
23:12:57 <AnMaster> "or do I need to develop my own <ehird OS name>-machine?"
23:13:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: See Smalltalk for more details.
23:14:15 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: Well, you can get whatever chips you want to implement whatever formal behavior you want, thats pretty well established - and I agree with where Fred Brooks ended up about software development:
23:14:43 <mycroftiv> iterate, improve, iterate, improve - always from a working minimal testbed - and do your design 'ahead' of yourself, but constantly with redesign based on the testing and use
23:14:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know it is closed world. But you have to consider "will it run well on common architectures" when designing anything. To take an _extreme_ example: Searching memory by using CAM is more efficient than most other search algorithms. Yet it isn't commonly available on most hardware.
23:15:12 <AnMaster> Found in special equipment like network switches and routers mostly
23:15:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... But Smalltalk works, and it works sufficiently well for most purposes.
23:15:37 <AnMaster> an OS that depended on it for being efficient would be rather useless for most people
23:16:06 <pikhq> This is like asking if C could be used for an OS...
23:16:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. But does he intend to run it under a host OS hosting the smalltalk implementation forever?
23:16:08 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: anyone doing any work on creating a 'new os' should obviously know as a practical matter most people will never hear of it or care. and thats ok.
23:16:15 <AnMaster> or will it be the "native OS you boot into" at some point
23:16:28 <AnMaster> like the one you select in grub
23:16:38 <AnMaster> (or whatever bootloader you use)
23:17:35 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: ehird has stated clearly that he intends to control the hardware natively and not run simply as hosted 'environment'
23:18:05 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, right. Maybe he did before. But as I mentioned, I have been pretty busy during the days recently
23:18:26 <AnMaster> and I hardly have time to read several hours of fast paced conversation in logs
23:18:53 <AnMaster> so I might have missed details when I was marked away :P
23:19:09 <mycroftiv> i didnt mean for my statement 'ehird has stated clearly...' to carry the implication that you were at fault for not knowing that
23:19:37 <AnMaster> and he intends to code it in small talk?
23:19:46 <AnMaster> won't the small talk runtime system be the "kernel" then
23:20:05 <mycroftiv> not really, he wants to use forth for the lower level components of the system
23:20:13 <AnMaster> since iirc smalltalk is pretty hosted. far from the "portable asm" that C is
23:20:31 <mycroftiv> create a smalltalk implementation hosted within his forth environment
23:21:01 <AnMaster> won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then
23:21:03 <mycroftiv> thats the basic concept he has outlined, which is definitely challenging, but i dont think there is anything at all 'wrong' with it conceptually
23:21:31 <mycroftiv> i cant speak for him, the way the two of you define 'kernel' hasnt been straightened out
23:21:50 <mycroftiv> so i think when you say 'kernel' its fkdjkjaasd to him and when he says 'kernel' its kaoiuweruieu to you
23:22:32 <mycroftiv> you seem to be using an 'operational' definition, in the sense of 'the kernel is whatever code that does x, y, z, so if x, y, z are done, whatever does them, we call a kernel'
23:22:47 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts
23:23:16 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: yes, and that definition seems to make ehird angry, he seems to regard is as unconventional/incorrect
23:23:28 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, and he referred me to wikipedia
23:23:36 <AnMaster> and that wikipedia page seems to agree with me
23:23:51 <mycroftiv> i have no role as referee as to definitional correctness, i wash my hands
23:24:00 <mycroftiv> i agree with humpty dumpty personally
23:24:04 <AnMaster> "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)"
23:24:10 <mycroftiv> "when i use a word, it means exactly what i want it to mean, neither more nor less"
23:24:35 <mycroftiv> ehird: i was trying to answer some questions, you should verify my statements because i cant speak for you
23:24:56 <mycroftiv> but i believe stuff like 'forth lower layer, smalltalk upper layer' is 'established fact' about your os design now
23:25:47 * ehird unignores AnMaster and reads logs to make sense
23:25:49 <ehird> 15:21:01 <AnMaster> won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then
23:25:56 <ehird> Smalltalk, for instance, handles talking to the keyboard
23:26:06 <ehird> Forth is just for writing the Smalltalk and what's needed for that.
23:26:24 <ehird> 15:22:47 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts
23:26:36 <ehird> by that definition, both all of my OS and none of my OS and everything in between is the kernel
23:26:47 <ehird> sure you could isolate some bits and say maybe-this-is-the-kernel
23:26:52 <ehird> but it'd be hopeless
23:27:07 <ehird> 15:24:04 <AnMaster> "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)"
23:27:08 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, you can't do certain stuff in userspace on most modern CPU arches. This includes x86, PPC and some more. Userspace being defined as "whatever is the equivalent of ring 3 on the CPU arch". You will get general protection fault for loading the task register while in ring 3 for example on x86.
23:27:10 <ehird> there is no manager in my OS
23:27:15 <ehird> consider the kernel as the government
23:27:20 <ehird> and my OS as a peaceful anarchist commune
23:27:56 <ehird> (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force)
23:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, are all applications managed, as in running under a VM, like inferno or such
23:28:22 <AnMaster> where VM here would be the smalltalk code I assume
23:28:49 <ehird> if an object has a reference to another object that talks directly to the hardware
23:28:51 <ehird> then it can talk to the hardware
23:28:52 <AnMaster> ehird, what *enforces* the capabilities
23:29:00 <ehird> AnMaster: capabilities don't require "enforcement"
23:30:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) <-- I don't live in US...
23:30:08 <ehird> AnMaster: loooooool
23:30:16 <ehird> you know how a government derives its authority right?
23:30:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
23:30:31 <ehird> there is no such thing as a de jure government, only a de facto one enforced by the threat of violence
23:30:33 <ehird> anyway, technically, an assorted bunch of objects around the system will have methods that run in ring-0, as an implementation detail
23:30:40 <ehird> this does not include drivers
23:30:45 <mycroftiv> government derives its authority from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony
23:30:45 <ehird> drivers just use these objects to talk to the hardware
23:30:58 <ehird> and so you'd have drivers running in userspace according to you
23:31:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. I can already see the performance problems ahead on x86. I suspect I know more about this sort of thing on x86 than you do.
23:31:35 <ehird> think what you want
23:31:51 <ehird> you realise that smalltalk as an os is nothing new right
23:31:55 <ehird> that's what the original smalltalk was
23:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, drivers in user space is certainly possible. But for some stuff it just won't cut it
23:32:18 <ehird> i'm uninterested in your argument by assertion
23:32:39 <pikhq> ehird: Shame that modern CPUs are effectively C machines, isn't it? Makes it a bit hard to imagine anything else.
23:32:50 <AnMaster> overhead of switching between userspace/kernel when handling interrupts from a 10 gbps ethernet card?
23:32:58 <ehird> AnMaster: userspace/kernel?
23:33:23 <AnMaster> and don't even suggest ring 1 or 2 on x86. They are *even* slower to switch to/from
23:33:46 <ehird> taking everything you said as axiomatic, because I can't be arsed to argue: then we run everything under ring 0
23:33:54 <AnMaster> since ring 0<->3 has a "fast path" named SYSCALL/SYSRET and/or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT
23:34:00 <AnMaster> depending on if you ask AMD or Intel
23:34:23 <ehird> i like how you seem to think that an operation on a cpu will somehow not achieve 10gbps?
23:34:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: Actually, there's more than those for ring 0<->3 jumps...
23:34:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes there is more to do. I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion
23:35:03 <pikhq> Linux has a function at a fixed memory location that does whatever's fastest, because there's so many ways to do it...
23:35:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but going to/from rings 1 and 2 is *even* slower
23:35:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I know about the vdso :)
23:35:48 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, I'm among good company with my won't-cut-it performance-destroying managed model
23:35:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tell that to Xen? :P
23:35:53 <ehird> like microsoft, with their Singularity project
23:36:09 <ehird> it's comforting to know both me and microsoft know less about x86 than AnMaster
23:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, running everything in ring 0 could work
23:36:23 <pikhq> ehird: Microsoft Research.
23:36:34 <ehird> pikhq: aka the good part of Microsoft
23:36:35 <pikhq> 're the same guys that think Haskell is a decent language. ;)
23:36:41 <pikhq> ehird: Quite right.
23:36:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, Well. That is relative "interpreting/dynamic recompiling in userspace"
23:37:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, then yes using the extra rings is better
23:37:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc virtualbox uses ring 1 too for this. Not sure if that applies when using VT-x/AMD-V though
23:39:37 <pikhq> VT-x/AMD-V is most akin to VM-86. That is, the code runs in ring 0, except with unsafe calls automagically getting shipped on through to the hypervisor.
23:39:43 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: since you mention virtual machines, doesnt that point in the direction of 'not worrying' because I can run a qemu vm with no kqemu on an almost 10 year old freebsd box and put plan9 inside and still have a usable environment?
23:39:43 <ehird> anyway AnMaster, my system absolutely has no *centralised* kernel
23:39:48 <ehird> and that's what a kernel is!
23:39:54 <ehird> sure it has privileged code
23:39:58 <ehird> but a kernel is centralised, that's the definition
23:40:07 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, plan9 doesn't use a lot of resources
23:40:36 <AnMaster> I was thinking more about "server under high load, maybe DDoS" kind of scenario.
23:40:51 <ehird> mycroftiv: not worrying about what?
23:40:53 <ehird> i missed the context
23:41:00 <mycroftiv> im just saying, so far as I can tell, even the 'worst case scenario' of having the slowest possible way of using weak hardware, you can still get something usable out of it
23:41:38 <mycroftiv> ehird: not worrying too much about optimal hardware performance
23:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_addressing looks nice, but that requires hardware support, which isn't present on x86 at least.
23:42:04 <ehird> oh you mean the ring0 vs ring3 task switching crap?
23:42:11 <ehird> i ignored that because it's obviously fast enough
23:42:16 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: see, heres my perspective - i started using a computer in 1980, and subjectively, that was still the FASTEST computer ive ever used in terms of time-to-task in many ways
23:42:36 <ehird> you basically never access memory directly anyway
23:42:43 <ehird> so why would I use that?
23:43:00 <ehird> correction: Not in any sane system.
23:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, do you want to be able to run ported programs written in other languages?
23:43:37 <ehird> No. My OS doesn't have programs, it has objects.
23:43:57 <ehird> Dual-booting or using a VM is infinitely preferable to breaking the model like that, because you'll just end up with something that acts like a VM anyway.
23:44:00 <mycroftiv> definitions, definitions, definitions
23:44:03 <AnMaster> ehird, so you will need to develop your own web browser object replacement instead of creating an object that wraps webkit?
23:44:05 <ehird> If you really need it, POSIX/ELF emulation layer, fully sandboxed.
23:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Maybe if I was trying to freakin' make something practical I'd be cloning Linux, have you considered that?
23:44:28 <ehird> mycroftiv: no, fundamental design
23:44:35 <mycroftiv> im gonna make an os where i dont have programs, i dont have objects, i have DELICIOUS CHEESECAKE and ICE CREAM and it will be great
23:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought something usable was a goal
23:44:52 <AnMaster> as in "this is a OS I will use as my main one in 10 years time"
23:44:53 <ehird> Plan 9 doesn't integrate POSIX apps either.
23:45:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: i dont believe smalltalk and object oriented is actually 'fundamnetal' in the sense you do - i think its a perfetly valid and useful and beautiful set of abstractions
23:45:09 <ehird> mycroftiv: fact is
23:45:13 <mycroftiv> but i dont think it means that a program aint a program any more, its just an objecct
23:45:14 <ehird> a posix program does NOT fit in with my model
23:45:58 <AnMaster> ehird, will you have some sort of window manager for the OS?
23:46:16 <AnMaster> some "this isn't horrible X but it handles the GUI" sort of thing
23:46:35 <ehird> <Leenus Torvalts> I'm working on a hobby OS called Linux
23:46:35 <ehird> <Anne Muster> Does it have a web browser yet?
23:46:49 <ehird> but don't say GUI, there is no command line.
23:46:57 <ehird> well, the bootup forth console could count.
23:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I was not saying "has it yet", I was saying "any plans for this"
23:48:37 <AnMaster> please read what I actually said
23:48:46 <ehird> the G is redundant
23:48:49 <ehird> there's just the UI
23:48:55 <AnMaster> I meant about the "Leenus Torvalts" bit :P
23:48:57 <ehird> it happens to require a graphics processor and a colour display
23:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: window manager is an implementation detail, though
23:49:17 <ehird> who says i'll even use windows?
23:49:30 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't my old vector display enough? WILL I NEED A FRAMEBUFFER?
23:49:38 <ehird> quite so good cheap
23:49:52 <AnMaster> ehird, what would you use instead of windows
23:49:58 <AnMaster> as in, what sort of abstraction
23:50:27 <AnMaster> the abstraction of "windows" while far from perfect seems to be one that "kind of works better than everything else thought of so far"
23:51:00 <ehird> You know that the typical user's workflow consists of a tab bar at the bottom, with applications, and in one of those windows a tab bar at the top, being their pages, right?
23:51:11 <mycroftiv> this has nothing to do with ehird's os (since he doesnt like them) but i believe that we should replace the desktop metaphor with a namespace tree/network map
23:51:13 <ehird> Floating windows aren't used by the average computer user
23:51:24 <ehird> mycroftiv: wait when did i say i didn't like those
23:51:38 <mycroftiv> ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems
23:51:42 <ehird> well yeah, I don't
23:51:45 <ehird> I don't like trees
23:51:55 <ehird> I like floating things that you can search
23:52:27 <mycroftiv> right, and my visualization is a big 'tree' that shows your file system and you can zoom in and out on the content hanging on the branches, and it also can be zoomed out to show network map of the lan, etc - show the interconnections on the workspace
23:52:27 <AnMaster> <mycroftiv> ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems <-- that is easily solved. Don't use MacOS
23:52:38 <mycroftiv> not just a blank space full of disconnected icons
23:52:40 <AnMaster> (HFS is short for "hierarchical file system" ;P)
23:53:10 <ehird> Similarly, Mac OS is clearly an operating system for raincoats.
23:53:13 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't like trees? You will hate implementing memory management on x86 then :D
23:53:47 <ehird> I'll just molest x86 until it does what I want.
23:53:55 <ehird> If I have to rewrite all the microcode, so be it.
23:54:10 <AnMaster> ehird, think it is hard wired into the silicon.
23:54:30 <ehird> i'll just find some instructions that heat up the processor so much that it melts
23:54:36 <ehird> and then cool down at just the right time
23:54:38 <ehird> voila! new microcode
23:54:46 <mycroftiv> ok, i meant to get some food 3 hours ago, time to avoid dying of starvation due to os discussions
23:55:05 <ehird> mycroftiv: I WAS THINKING ABOUT MEMORY MANAGEMENT
23:55:12 <ehird> also your inability to eat.
23:57:04 <AnMaster> ehird, memory management is fun. Getting it right is *hard*
23:57:20 <ehird> Doesn't sound fun to me
23:58:22 <AnMaster> ehird, go read some reference manuals for system programming. AMD ones are generally easier to find your way around in than intel ones. Use both for the best result
23:58:42 <ehird> I've been able to avoid any Intel/AMD manuals so far in my life
23:58:51 <ehird> admittedly that makes coding asm nontrivial
23:58:55 <AnMaster> ehird, you won't if coding a full blown OS
23:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, handing SMP is even funnier
23:59:48 <ehird> please tell me the CPU doesn't have a predefined notion of processes/threads that it uses to do that?
23:59:52 <ehird> please tell me it's lower-level ;_;
00:00:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it does have a notion of "tasks".
00:00:12 <ehird> well yeah but those are uber-vague
00:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't know the difference between processes and threads though
00:00:47 <pikhq> And it doesn't have a fucking *clue* about doing that on multiple processors.
00:01:04 <AnMaster> they are the same on linux at least. just fork() but instead of COW it is shared on write
00:01:22 <AnMaster> the OS needs to handle scheduling across different CPUs
00:01:23 <pikhq> Of course, x86 is a series of hacks. So.
00:01:28 <ehird> processes are stupid
00:01:49 <ehird> they're the single worst example of the hardware/kernel details being exposed to the top-level
00:02:11 <AnMaster> short quotation from intel docs showing this:
00:02:33 <AnMaster> "Some bit fields in IA32_MISC_ENABLE MSR (MSR address 1A0H) may be shared between two logical processors sharing a processor core, or may be shared between different cores in a physical processor. See Appendix B, “Model-Specific Registers (MSRs)”."
00:02:51 <ehird> dual-core? don't you mean N-core
00:03:05 <ehird> i thought you meant some weird 2-core specificness
00:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to sync MTRRs between cpus btw
00:03:51 <coppro> ehird: I said "true pedants" not "pedants"
00:03:58 <ehird> AnMaster: please, can't you stop talking about this? it's making me want to get a heap of cash, buy a Symbolics and lock myself in a cave
00:03:59 <AnMaster> not properly syncing them caused some semi-(in)famous bug in linux years ago.
00:04:04 <ehird> coppro: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHetc
00:04:39 <ehird> WITHOUT EVEN AN ETHERNET CABLE
00:04:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so lets skip hyperthreading then ;P
00:05:00 <ehird> the cpu can handle hyperthreading.
00:05:05 <ehird> i doooooon't want to think about that
00:05:12 <ehird> can't i just pretend it's a core.
00:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, nop. Not on the basic level
00:05:28 <ehird> i mean hyperthreading worked in windows before the pentium 4 afaik
00:05:32 <ehird> like in the test samples.
00:05:47 <ehird> i guess it would bloat the silicon to handle the scheduling but urgh
00:05:56 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure the shipped some driver then that enabled it then
00:06:14 <ehird> so step one become the most-used OS in the world
00:06:15 <pikhq> Okay. I'm vomiting.
00:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, or maybe the interface was different back then
00:06:18 <ehird> step two make intel my bitch and do it for me
00:06:33 <pikhq> That is such an *awful* design.
00:06:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: All of x86.
00:06:45 <ehird> the result of hyperthreading is cool!
00:07:22 <pikhq> ehird: I do believe that CPUs themselves need to be more abstract. A Brainfuck machine with peripherals memory-mapped?
00:07:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want to know how debuggers work
00:07:33 <ehird> pikhq: graph reducer, bitch
00:07:34 <AnMaster> that bit makes me want to vomit
00:07:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, they hook in to the VM in question, of course.
00:07:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, traditional debuggers
00:07:59 <ehird> If you're running a legacy native code program, you hook into the emulator!
00:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
00:08:08 <pikhq> ehird: A graph reducer? That would be awesome.
00:08:10 <ehird> FLUFFY UNICORNS LA LA LA
00:08:23 <pikhq> ehird: A HASKELL MACHINE!
00:08:30 <ehird> pikhq: That's what a graph reducer is!
00:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you know about CPUID btw?
00:09:13 <ehird> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
00:09:16 <AnMaster> the think on x86 to check what the CPU supports
00:09:38 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not targeting anything below, say, core 2
00:09:49 <ehird> I'd support Atom if it did 64 bit
00:10:14 <AnMaster> however, first you must check CPUID exists. Since it didn't on 386. Thus you must first test if you can write to a specific register. If you can't bail out with "augh this is a 386. don't even try to run me"
00:10:18 <ehird> but I really have better things to do than cater to people with ancient CPUs
00:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, just showing how horrible x86 is ^
00:10:49 <ehird> that's why I'm not thinking about anything older than a few years
00:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, btw to run 64-bit you need to set up page table first
00:10:56 <pikhq> It's a bloody Haskell machine!
00:10:59 <ehird> at least modern x86_64 cpus are basically intercompatible
00:11:05 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the Reduceron is.
00:11:07 <pikhq> ehird: Currently-produced Atom chips are 64-bit.
00:11:13 <ehird> I might support them.
00:11:17 <AnMaster> ehird, as in. you need paging enabled to enter long mode (long mode = official name for 64-bit mode)
00:11:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, I know.
00:11:34 <ehird> I'll probably set up a ridiculous paging scheme that lets me abuse it for nefarious purposes.
00:11:49 <ehird> But the first thing my OS will do is do what it needs to do to enter long mode and then do i.
00:11:53 <AnMaster> ehird, to begin with just creating a page for the entire memory might be sane
00:11:56 <ehird> Bye bye, legacy cruft.
00:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: To begin with? Why, LoseThos never gives up that notion!
00:12:22 <AnMaster> ehird, the "enter long mode" bit is probably best coded in asm. For your own sanity I mean
00:12:34 <ehird> As well as the Forth implementation
00:12:46 <ehird> Writing my own bootloader.
00:12:52 <ehird> Why? Because GRUB's written in C. :P
00:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest forth begins directly/shortly after you entered long mode
00:13:13 <pikhq> All that using GRUB gets you is entering protected mode.
00:13:25 <pikhq> Which is *annoying*, but not too hard to write.
00:13:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is quite nice though
00:13:45 <AnMaster> entering long mode is worse than entering protected mode
00:14:00 <ehird> bootloader → long mode → forth → basic hardware setup → smalltalk vm → rest of hardware → full bootup procedure (unless it's the first time, this consists basically of restoring the last state) → done!
00:14:13 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, another issue. In long mode you need all drivers.
00:14:18 <pikhq> Protected mode is just a few frobs to the keyboard controller and a ocuple register.
00:14:21 <AnMaster> you can't enter the 16 bit mode thingy
00:14:26 <pikhq> Erm. Couple registers.
00:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: What? You can't use the BIOS in long mode?
00:14:46 <ehird> Just making sure I'm understanding you right
00:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, basically you can't use the BIOS interrupts to handle stuff like basic hardware for you (PATA/SATA controller for example) before you written a driver
00:15:40 <ehird> Does the driver stay in 16-bit mode or something?
00:15:56 <ehird> If not, I suppose existing 64-bit OSs just DIY it?
00:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, do you know about vm86?
00:15:58 <ehird> If so, then I will.
00:16:33 <ehird> anyway, does the BIOS really do all that much for you?
00:16:47 <ehird> I imagine what with incompatibilities and the like, it wouldn't be too hard to avoid using it
00:16:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it provides slow access to hardware until you have your own drivers up and running
00:16:58 <ehird> (incompatibilities i.e. you can't rely on stuff that differs between BIOSes)
00:17:23 <ehird> that's useful for... accessing the harddrive, and not much else
00:17:25 <AnMaster> like, before you handle the VESA bit yourself you can use interrupts to make the BIOS do it.
00:17:29 <ehird> how hard can it be to use SATA?
00:17:34 <ehird> AnMaster: don't need VESA
00:17:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well VGA then. Before you have anything up however...
00:18:30 <pikhq> AnMaster, there's no sense in using BIOS interrupts for doing VGA.
00:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway my point is that until you developed your own drivers for stuff like harddrive, video, keyboard/mouse (usb emulation is provided by bios), going into long mode == bad idea
00:18:51 <ehird> There's no fancy bootup process; you turn it on, the screen sits there for a few seconds and then it turns graphical and your objects appear how you left them
00:18:58 <ehird> so I don't really need those things
00:19:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the drivers are written in forth and smalltalk
00:19:17 <pikhq> It takes less code to talk to the VGA card manually then it does to thunk to the BIOS...
00:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But I bet you won't have them ready right away
00:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that the entire number of times it interacts with the user until the smalltalk VM is up and running is zero
00:19:58 <ehird> no input, no output
00:20:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, well iirc the first few lines are traditionally done by thunk to BIOS. Like when grub is printing "Loading stage 1.5"
00:20:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still no point in it.
00:20:27 <ehird> when i was writing my os and printing out lines to the screen
00:20:31 <ehird> it's just B80000 or something
00:20:38 <ehird> and you just write to it at y*80+x or something
00:20:45 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the address of the framebuffer.
00:20:47 <ehird> line wrapping, a few lines
00:20:50 <ehird> scrolling, about ten
00:21:06 <pikhq> It's a tiny bit more complicated to actually have non-textual graphics, but even that's not hard.
00:21:14 <pikhq> Writing a couple of things to the VGA registers.
00:21:27 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, maybe I misremember that bit then. Still you need to do it for harddisk
00:21:49 <pikhq> ... Yeah, that's called "a bootloader".
00:21:55 <ehird> how hard can talking to sata be
00:22:10 <pikhq> ehird: Harder than an interrupt. :P
00:22:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that I have no clue about. But pretty hard I bet
00:22:39 <ehird> only the most simple HD access is needed until smalltalk is running and loads the full HD driver
00:22:42 <AnMaster> which is why you need memory management up
00:22:57 <AnMaster> really, every time a system managed to boot we show be overawed.
00:22:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: DMA is optional.
00:23:01 <ehird> i need to write memory management as part of the forth
00:23:15 <AnMaster> but it is quite a feat when you think about it
00:23:29 <ehird> careful! thinking like that turns you into thom yorke.
00:24:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thom_Yorke <-- wikipedia fails then
00:24:24 <ehird> never heard of that guy
00:24:29 <ehird> must be named after him or sth
00:24:48 <ehird> well he wasn't exactly famous i just like him
00:25:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. explain that reference though please
00:25:34 <AnMaster> that makes me similar to him when thinking that above
00:25:42 <ehird> it's a reference to his painting Rocks Crushed Over the Sky At Five O'Clock
00:26:19 <AnMaster> google doesn't turn up anything relevant
00:27:07 <AnMaster> ehird, btw your boot loader. It has to fit in a *tiny* space
00:27:37 <ehird> here's my bootloader
00:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to load something to jump to
00:28:26 <ehird> asking sata for a KB or so of code
00:28:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Boot loaders are trivial.
00:28:32 <ehird> sounds awfully hard!
00:28:35 <ehird> i could even use the bios.
00:28:37 <pikhq> Seriously, shaddup.
00:28:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't say they were hard
00:28:53 <AnMaster> was just trying to scare ehird :P
00:28:56 <pikhq> Especially since you've got a whole block to work with and BIOS interrupts.
00:29:01 <pikhq> And bootloaders don't do much.
00:29:12 <ehird> i wrote a hello world os in assembly including bootloader following a nice little tutorial thing once
00:29:14 <pikhq> It's a loop that reads a few blocks in and jumps.
00:29:18 <ehird> didn't understand a lot of the operations but
00:29:21 <Asztal> I've played tic-tac-toe in a bootloader
00:29:24 <ehird> it was rather trivial
00:29:26 <AnMaster> really I want a sane system like PPC+Open Firmware
00:29:27 <ehird> like a few hundred lines.
00:29:35 <ehird> AnMaster: whoa whoa don't call that sane, it's just better
00:29:39 <ehird> ARM + OpenFirmware, even closer
00:29:48 <ehird> but until we enter lisp machine territory, we're not sane
00:29:53 <ehird> we're just more creatively deranged
00:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster: ARM gives you a free shift in every instruction.
00:30:04 <ehird> EVERY INSTRUCTION.
00:30:07 <ehird> I rest my case. ARM is cool.
00:30:15 <ehird> Also, low heat and low poewr.
00:30:27 <ehird> power requirements, that is
00:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, shift? as in some flag to shift the value by n?
00:30:52 <ehird> you can append ; right/leftshift foo to every instruction
00:31:03 <ehird> without performance penalty
00:31:13 <AnMaster> how often is that useful I wonder
00:31:32 <ehird> in embedded work? tons!
00:31:59 <ehird> Anyway, everyone knows the only real sane platform is Itanium/EFI.
00:32:01 -!- ehird has changed nick to crickets.
00:32:06 -!- crickets has changed nick to ehird.
00:32:49 <ehird> It's a bloated OS that replaces your BIOS/OpenFirmware.
00:33:00 <ehird> lol, SGI's Altix 4000 server could have up to 2048 CPUs
00:33:12 <ehird> i guess someone hacked in one more and had to wait on xkcd's linux patch.
00:33:16 <AnMaster> ehird, linux supports up to 4096 iirc?
00:33:26 <ehird> i'm fairly sure xkcd just made that up
00:33:43 <AnMaster> ehird, fairly sure it does support 4096 ones (at least)
00:33:55 <ehird> cool how it's limited
00:33:59 <ehird> whereby cool i mean stupid
00:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, "at least" means "maybe not limited"
00:34:24 <ehird> in MYYYYYYYYY os, everything like that is a bignum
00:34:31 <ehird> INCLUDING THE DATETIME CLASS
00:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Everything?
00:41:12 * pikhq is curious how you write lambdas as a bignum
00:41:22 <ehird> EVERYTHING INTEGERIC
00:41:39 <ehird> (integeric, adj. When you start to write numeric but realise integral would be better, and want to have some fun.)
00:42:42 <pikhq> ehird: So, in other words: Integral a has one instance: Bignum.
00:42:53 <ehird> No, not in the low level Forth. :P
00:43:01 <ehird> ...and not when conversing with hardware.
00:43:26 <pikhq> That's because hardware's a bitch, and Forth's low-level.
00:44:09 <AnMaster> you just don't want to know how some structures are packed
00:44:18 <ehird> pikhq: Forth is so funly low-level.
00:44:32 <ehird> Have a string on the stack and want to shuffle it? HOPE YOU REMEMBER THEY'RE TWO SEPARATE ELEMENTS IN ONE
00:44:35 <pikhq> God, the pointer in the GDT.
00:45:01 <pikhq> Was that in 3 or 4 different parts?
00:45:24 <ehird> i gave up on my previous os because of the gdt
00:45:28 <ehird> it just triple faulted when i set it up
00:45:31 <ehird> NO MATTER WHAT ;_;
00:45:41 <ehird> even when i copied it verbatim from the bkdev tutorial
00:46:00 <pikhq> ehird: I was able to get it down to a single fault!
00:46:06 <ehird> pikhq: then you gave up? :D
00:46:09 <pikhq> (... By having an interrupt handler)
00:49:27 <AnMaster> I decided to never write an OS after seeing the GDT
00:50:29 <ehird> thankfully, in my OS I only need one segment
00:50:40 <ehird> set as completely free-for-all
00:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, Linux uses two segments iirc
00:51:48 <ehird> i know of no such thing!
00:52:08 <pikhq> The two segments more map to "ring 0" and "ring 3".
00:52:24 <pikhq> OpenBSD has twice as many segments.
00:52:32 <pikhq> Read xor execute. ;)
00:52:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: It lets them emulate the NX bit.
00:52:57 <pikhq> They split the memory space in half.
00:53:05 <ehird> pikhq: what a waste of memory!
00:53:06 <pikhq> One side has read/write stuff.
00:53:08 -!- morenel has left (?).
00:53:12 <pikhq> One side has executable stuff.
00:53:20 <ehird> anyway all RWX ftw!
00:53:21 <pikhq> ehird: That's only one systems without the NX bit.
00:53:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Totally unneeded in my OS!
00:53:52 <AnMaster> ehird, great for protecting against bugs though
00:54:05 <ehird> You can't read/write to memory directly.
00:54:30 <AnMaster> everything that helps detect bugs early == a good thing
00:54:43 <ehird> You know that the Forth layer is expected to be at its most bloated and fullest, say, 10,000 lines?
00:54:48 <ehird> That's after years.
00:55:03 <ehird> Anyway, using NX in Forth code would...
00:55:19 <ehird> Forth never executes machine code like that
00:55:24 <ehird> and you can still run anything as a forth word
00:55:31 <ehird> so it'd only help to catch bugs in the underlying Forth implementation
00:55:35 * AnMaster imagines a x86_128 where NX would be required
00:55:41 <ehird> and said implementation will be quite short and very low-level
00:55:46 <ehird> In conclusion, NX doesn't help me at all.
00:56:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: How many people need to address 302231454903657293676544 petabytes, anyways?
00:57:13 * ehird looks at his Dyson sphere as a holograph.
00:57:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, not yet indeed. I bet it will happen faster than we expect though
00:57:17 <pikhq> (128 is a *very* big number)
00:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, passing 2^64 faster
00:57:40 <AnMaster> 2^128 is probably quite safe due to number of atoms and so on
00:57:57 <AnMaster> but 96 bit adressing would be really quite awkward
00:58:10 <AnMaster> so I bet they will just jump to 2^128
00:58:17 <ehird> If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears.
00:58:43 <pikhq> Thereby letting you mmap the entirety of the Universe.
00:58:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears. <-- amazing :D
00:59:36 <AnMaster> unless we discover multiverse or something
01:00:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you still want paging however. To handle swap and such
01:00:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: His entire design implies paging.
01:01:06 <pikhq> And having the entire hard drive mapped in memory. ;)
01:01:18 <AnMaster> I was fearing he would go for "single page"
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01:01:39 <pikhq> But that would make it very hard to do object persistence.
01:02:17 <pikhq> Much, much easier to give objects their own pages that may or may not be on the disk.
01:02:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, quite a bit of waste of space there
01:02:50 <AnMaster> and there will be lots of small objects
01:03:22 <pikhq> There's a bit of waste for small processes on UNIX, and there's a *lot* of small processes.
01:03:36 <pikhq> It is, in fact, a defining aspect.
01:03:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, not quite as many as there would be objects
01:03:53 <AnMaster> assuming objects are as fine graded as I understood him
01:04:13 <pikhq> It's about the same waste involved in having a lot of small files on the disk.
01:04:24 <pikhq> ... Nobody even *talks* about that waste.
01:04:44 <AnMaster> I considered a pool system to solve it
01:04:52 <pikhq> You're a freak who still has a sub-1GB drive.
01:04:56 <AnMaster> having the disk split in two parts. "large" and "small"
01:05:19 <AnMaster> somewhat like the heap and stack grows from different ends
01:06:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, like having 4 KB blocks at one end, and 1 KB at the other end
01:09:04 -!- coppro has joined.
01:09:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Freak who has a sub-1MB drive, I meant.
01:09:59 <pikhq> Then WHY THE CRAP DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?
01:10:43 <pikhq> If you've lost more than 100MB from the waste involved in having a large amount of small files, I will buy a hat and then eat my hat!
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01:12:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have. By having 16 GB of sub-1KB files.
01:12:28 <AnMaster> is stored in a horrible format.
01:12:44 <AnMaster> one file with altitudes per each 0.1 degrees lat/long iirc
01:12:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you know what?
01:12:56 <ehird> New drives are going to have BIGGER BLOCKS.
01:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on the file system
01:13:19 <ehird> I mean drive level
01:13:41 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. But FS can use less
01:13:50 <AnMaster> and that is what matters for space waste
01:14:00 <pikhq> Yes, but it is *absurdly* painful and inefficient to do so.
01:14:00 <ehird> anyway, I'm wasting space by never deleting anything and revisioning every single change
01:14:06 <ehird> and persisting generic objects
01:14:12 <ehird> instead of hand-tinkered formats
01:14:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and megabyte sized blocks is absurd too
01:14:24 <ehird> so a big fuck-you-and-buy-a-big-drive, AnMaster :P
01:14:44 <AnMaster> well not if you assume gnu userland :P
01:14:50 <ehird> pikhq: so, let's talk about how AnMaster is a dinosaur
01:15:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC.
01:15:29 <ehird> Fuck files. Fuuuuuuuuck files.
01:15:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, /bin/ls is 108 KB. 64-bit GNU userland
01:15:35 <ehird> Files are for bedwetters.
01:16:00 <ehird> AnMaster: please, tell me how many files you have in /bin, /usr/bin and /etc
01:16:18 <pikhq> For comparison, /bin/busybox is 976K.
01:16:22 <ehird> Fine, /usr/lib too.
01:16:37 <AnMaster> find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib | wc -l # *waits*
01:17:22 <AnMaster> but /usr/share contains lots of small files too
01:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: So, if we have 1MB blocks, then your files would take up 7.9GB total (ignoring the larger files which will be rare).
01:18:13 <ehird> AnMaster: So, a FORTIETH of a modern-sized drive.
01:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, waiting for /usr/share which mostly contain small files
01:18:27 <pikhq> Including share, I get: 195622
01:18:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, /usr/share still scanning here
01:18:41 <pikhq> (I install documentation for everything)
01:18:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember the inode thing.
01:18:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Clearly you need ext4.
01:18:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use that on my new laptop
01:19:08 <AnMaster> # find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib /usr/lib32 /usr/share | wc -l
01:19:26 <AnMaster> I don't install docs for everything
01:19:34 <ehird> [01:15] pikhq: AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC.
01:19:55 <ehird> Yeah. They're not laptops any more.
01:20:21 <ehird> Hmm, seems Lenovo actually still refers to ThinkPads as laptops.
01:20:23 <ehird> That's just asking for trouble.
01:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating
01:20:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is "bärbar" in Swedish. Translates to "carry-able"
01:20:55 <ehird> admittedly you might need a beefy lap and some hardcore computation to do that, but
01:21:01 <ehird> AnMaster: that's some low standard for a portable computer!
01:21:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well, literal translation...
01:22:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating <-- not yet. You will in the future I bet :P
01:22:27 <AnMaster> when you want to get children yourself
01:22:34 <ehird> so approximately never then
01:22:35 <AnMaster> sorry, it is some biological instinct
01:22:44 <ehird> so is killing animals for food
01:22:49 <ehird> with your bare hands and some crude tools
01:22:51 <ehird> have you done that lately?
01:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, on the level or hormones
01:23:02 <pikhq> ehird: You mean that most people *don't* do that?
01:23:04 <ehird> the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level
01:23:25 <ehird> if you don't go out hunting every night armed with barely anything, then you are "denying" your instincts just as much as I do
01:23:29 <ehird> pikhq: they use guns
01:23:35 <ehird> you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock
01:23:54 <pikhq> ehird: Sure you can.
01:24:07 <pikhq> It just needs a lot of bootstrapping.
01:24:27 <ehird> AnMaster: care to answer me?
01:24:45 <ehird> all of the above ↑
01:24:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock <-- I agree with what pikhq said there
01:25:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: they use guns <-- true
01:25:22 <ehird> the part where i wasn't talking to pikhq.
01:25:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level <-- hm. not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that the "food" instinct is "get food some way" not "that specific way"
01:25:55 <ehird> yeah I guess all those neanderthal hunters were just really inventive.
01:26:14 <AnMaster> ehird, um. heard about learning?
01:26:36 <GregorR-L> Animals such as these Sapiens in particular.
01:26:39 <ehird> that's totally not my point, but
01:26:47 <ehird> the fact is that there are plenty of people with no wish to breed at all
01:27:11 <ehird> just as we don't do just about every other instinct we have
01:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, elks for example. Children follow their mother to learn what is editable and what isn't
01:27:26 <AnMaster> saw this on some nature program on TV years ago
01:27:32 <coppro> AnMaster: if it has a read-only switch, it's not editable
01:27:36 <ehird> "When in doubt, try and steer the conversation to the previous topic."
01:28:11 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg Is this hat not the gaudiest thing you've ever seen?
01:28:12 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Not just Sapiens.
01:28:23 <AnMaster> eatable I meant except it isn't spelled that
01:28:29 <pikhq> Homo neanderthalensis, notably, was more intelligent that Homo sapiens. ;)
01:28:33 <ehird> AnMaster: so, are you seriously saying that every single human gets the overpowering urge to have children for the rest of their lives?
01:28:40 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Bigger brain != more intelligent
01:28:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm suggesting it is a strong instinct. Not one possible to overcome
01:29:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: They were demonstrably intelligent, at least.
01:29:12 <AnMaster> but harder to overcome than "must hunt food myself"
01:29:12 <pikhq> (tool creation, graves, etc.)
01:29:22 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Sure. But not demonstrably intelligent enough to build fucking cities, so we kinda win on that one.
01:29:22 <AnMaster> just look at the population of the world
01:29:32 <AnMaster> before you suggest anything else :P
01:29:32 <ehird> Does anyone want to snap AnMaster back to reality
01:29:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Eh, that's a matter of failing at the ice age is all.
01:30:15 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Neanderthals were around for longer than we have been around.
01:30:43 <GregorR-L> pikhq: In all that time they never figured out anywhere near the level of technology we had in some 10K years.
01:30:44 <AnMaster> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg <-- wow. is it new?
01:30:45 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Touché.
01:30:48 <GregorR-L> pikhq: So no, they just f***ing lose.
01:30:55 <ehird> AnMaster: You're misplacing the urge.
01:31:03 <ehird> The urge is to have sex; the evolutionary intention is for reproduction.
01:31:17 <ehird> But the urge isn't "I really want some GOD DAMN BABIES".
01:31:22 <ehird> "GOD. DAMN. BABIES."
01:31:29 <AnMaster> ehird, actually there is more to it than that. Do you think a baby crying sounds horrible?
01:31:39 <AnMaster> Yet you see older people that seems to find it cute.
01:31:43 <ehird> AnMaster: That has nothing to do with actually having babies.
01:31:48 <ehird> That's to do with once you've got one.
01:31:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Do not put the baby on the plate?
01:31:52 <ehird> Of course there are childrearing instincts.
01:32:00 <GregorR-L> pikhq: DO put the baby on the plate! :P
01:32:00 <ehird> There are not fuck-to-make-a-kid instincts; there are fuck instincts.
01:32:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. But you are affected by people *around* you having babies
01:32:18 <AnMaster> I'm not yet at this age. Thank god for it.
01:32:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: I can conclude that you have a uterus from that statement.
01:32:24 <GregorR-L> I don't think the instinct to have sex is "make babies", I think it's "put my penis in that"
01:32:27 <ehird> "Is that the new Baby 3000?!?!?!?!?!?!"
01:32:31 <ehird> "Omigosh! I want one!"
01:32:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, no. You can conclude I read too much bilogy
01:32:46 <ehird> "Hey, wifey! Can I put my penis in you? I want to make a baby 3000."
01:32:57 <ehird> Bilogy: It's like biology but full of absolute bilge.
01:33:09 <pikhq> ehird: No, it's the study of bile.
01:34:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, apparently men feel some sort of "take care of babies" instincts too. Not as strongly though. At least that is what I have heard.
01:34:44 <ehird> Yes, take care of ALREADY EXISTING BABIES.
01:35:14 <AnMaster> but see what I said above when you joked about model 3000
01:35:24 <ehird> Once you've satisfied your "Let me vigourously move my penis inwards and outwards of this opening" urge, a little thing appears and you have to satisfy your "Let me stop this thing making that noise" urge.
01:35:39 <ehird> This helps reproduction, but at no stage is the urge "Let me create a thing that makes that noise".
01:37:04 <GregorR-L> How strong is the paternal instinct in humans? Arguably the two instincts you've presented are by two different people :P
01:37:32 <ehird> The point is that males, at least, don't get the urge to make a whiney pooping vomiting thing.
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01:38:02 <ehird> …and thus concluding the argument that I could have one from the start by pointing to a sales chart of condoms.
01:38:29 <GregorR-L> There were some people wandering about Manhattan giving away "Obama condoms"
01:39:07 <ehird> Sounds... awesome.
01:39:54 <GregorR-L> As far as I can tell they're PURELY a joke. There is actually no political message at all.
01:40:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's awesome.
01:43:32 <ehird> http://www.obamacondoms.com/
01:43:42 <ehird> "Who says experience is necessary?" x_x
01:43:49 <ehird> "For the elitist penis"
01:44:04 <ehird> http://www.practicesafepolicy.com/
01:44:48 <ehird> http://www.thepalincondom.com/ When abortion is not an option!
01:44:52 <ehird> That's their actual slogan.
01:45:12 <pikhq> ehird: I presume they come with a hole in them?
01:45:27 <ehird> pikhq: No, those are Catholic Condoms.
01:45:57 <pikhq> Catholic condoms allow all the sperm to go through.
01:46:00 <pikhq> After all, every sperm is sacred.
01:46:08 <ehird> It is a very big hole.
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02:26:13 <ehird> Okay, "kilobit" is now pissing me off.
02:27:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with that
02:27:30 <ehird> A kilobit is used to mean 1000 bytes.
02:27:54 <ehird> Also, "kilobyte" is not 1024. Kilo means 1000.
02:28:00 <ehird> Therefore, I am switching to the following unit system:
02:28:10 <ehird> SI prefixes, including kilo- mean that. The resulting unit means that.
02:28:21 <ehird> Kibi is the retarded nearest-power-of-2 prefixes.
02:28:25 <ehird> as well as mebi, etc.
02:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, most people don't use the kibi and such
02:28:38 <AnMaster> rather they use the SI ones to mean 1024
02:28:50 <ehird> Kilo- is lowercase k, just like SI.
02:28:55 <ehird> 1 kB = 1000 bytes.
02:28:59 <pikhq> ehird: Congrats, you're using the *standard*.
02:29:07 <ehird> 1 KiB = 1024 bytes.
02:29:15 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, most people use 1000
02:29:19 <ehird> like HD manufacturers do
02:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well. last I looked windows didn't in the properties window
02:30:03 <ehird> Yeah, but most people don't look at that.
02:30:13 <ehird> Anyway, the difference usually doesn't matter, so those who don't know what it means won't suffer from this.
02:30:21 <ehird> But from now on, I-
02:30:26 <ehird> I think K is the SI prefix, not k.
02:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, if B is byte, what is bit then
02:30:42 <ehird> AnMaster: also, note that CPU cycles, ethernet, wireless bands, ... also use the 1000 system
02:31:10 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK, SI.
02:31:14 <ehird> It's k, but M and G and T.
02:31:18 <ehird> THAT MAKES SENSE?!
02:31:31 <pikhq> ehird: K is a unit.
02:31:43 <ehird> pikhq: I know but they do it for h, da, d, c, m, u, n, p, f, a, z and y too.
02:31:54 <ehird> And everything above k - M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y is uppercase.
02:31:57 <ehird> SO FUCK THAT SHIT.
02:33:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
02:33:41 <ehird> Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TB = 1024 GiB. PB = 1024 TiB.
02:33:57 <ehird> Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TiB = 1024 GiB. PiB = 1024 TiB.
02:34:07 <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-i versions.
02:34:24 <AnMaster> just to confuse things. this is not same as SNMP MIB
02:34:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-i versions. <-- nop, makes less sense for stuff like ram
02:35:11 <ehird> Things that aren't talking directly to silicon.
02:36:33 <ehird> Pebibyte sure is awkward to say.
02:37:25 <ehird> http://pastie.org/577068.txt?key=jap84dhxsagpjw0jgks8g
02:37:28 <ehird> Official standard.
02:37:37 <ehird> I will now make sure this survives pastie by repeating it in-channel.
02:37:45 <ehird> The SI-friendly information storage units
02:37:45 <ehird> 1 kB (kilobyte) = 1000 bytes
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 MB (megabyte) = 1000 kB
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 GB (gigabyte) = 1000 MB
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 TB (terabyte) = 1000 GB
02:37:47 <ehird> 1 PB (petabyte) = 1000 TB
02:37:51 <ehird> 1 kiB (kibibyte) = 1024 bytes
02:37:53 <ehird> 1 MiB (mebibyte) = 1024 kiB
02:37:55 <ehird> 1 GiB (gibibyte) = 1024 MiB
02:37:57 <ehird> 1 TiB (tebibyte) = 1024 GiB
02:37:59 <ehird> 1 PiB (pebibyte) = 1024 TiB
02:38:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> Pebibyte sure is awkward to say. <-- don't think so?
02:38:03 <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-bi units whenever reasonable (just
02:38:05 <ehird> about everything that doesn't talk directly to silicon).
02:38:11 <ehird> Now it's done, and I can get on with my life.
02:38:40 <ehird> no, byte is a fundamental unit
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03:12:06 <TimMcD> I would like to run an esolang idea by you guys. You up for it? ;)
03:12:40 <pikhq> Would be the first time we've been on topic this week.
03:12:47 <TimMcD> http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
03:13:17 <TimMcD> That's the link to a doc describing the lang
03:13:30 <TimMcD> good idea? bad idea? The kind of idea that makes bile rise in your throat?
03:13:51 <pikhq> Fighting pitiful Internet ATM.
03:14:25 <TimMcD> mm I'll type some of it our here then.
03:15:21 <TimMcD> My idea is based around blocks made up of rows, which are made up of cells. A cell '[]' contains 4 characters, two for the identifier (like classes/types) and two for the method/block identifier. A basic hello world:
03:15:55 <TimMcD> so is standard output identifier, 0 being the identifier for the block that prints out the next cell
03:16:09 <TimMcD> Rr, sorry, its actually
03:16:19 <TimMcD> [so0][c0][Hello, world!]
03:16:24 <TimMcD> c0 is a generator for strings
03:17:29 <pikhq> Not awful, but quite interesting.
03:17:36 <pikhq> Refreshingly unique semantics.
03:18:26 <TimMcD> I feel like there needs to be a betterway to generate strings
03:18:44 <TimMcD> I was thinking of somethign like:
03:18:45 <TimMcD> [c0][H][e][l][l][o]...
03:18:57 <TimMcD> But that would make it even harder to read
03:19:01 <TimMcD> and be a pain to type out
03:20:39 <pikhq> Bit distracted ATM.
03:31:37 <TimMcD> Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
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03:45:40 <GregorR-L> So anyway, rule 90 tie: http://www.zazzle.com/rule_90_tie-151155765045023221
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04:39:50 <pikhq> Collapse the probability wave.
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04:42:18 <TimMcD> pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see.
04:42:32 <TimMcD> http://etherpad.com/esolangideas , any thoughts? I understand that string handling could be/should be better...
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08:03:16 <AnMaster> <TimMcD> Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas <-- if only it loaded
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08:38:39 <coppro> it's pretty neat, actually
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09:50:45 <MizardX> http://etherpad.com/ep/pad/export/esolangideas/latest?format=txt
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13:49:49 <oklopol> Pthing: i had a dream about you
13:50:00 <oklopol> i think i was angry at you for some reason
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14:10:16 <ais523> ehird: obviously there aren't any here, you didn't get a reply
14:10:26 <ehird> vagabonds are very humble/secretive, pick one
14:12:08 <ehird> 20:42:18 <TimMcD> pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see.
14:12:17 <ehird> how I sarcastically read this:
14:12:22 <ehird> brainfuck AND esoteric languages I see.
14:12:58 <ais523> haskell has many of the good points of an esolang, whilst actually being practical
14:13:07 <ehird> 00:03:29 <AnMaster> maybe it needs javascript
14:13:07 <ehird> i look forward to the day where every web page requires javascript, just to see you demand all links start with gopher://
14:13:24 <ehird> replying to AnMaster
14:13:40 <ais523> well, I think people should use gopher to serve up the Javascript for HTML pages
14:13:47 <ehird> it's funny because etherpad is actually a neat and useful thingy
14:13:57 <ehird> (it's gobby, but online so you can just throw someone a link)
14:16:43 <ehird> (although it wasn't too good until recently due to being slow; it got better when the makers decided to focus on it instead of the web application backend thinamagic they built it on)
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14:22:09 <ais523> ehird: it's a chemistry pun
14:22:46 <ehird> how likely is it that anyone would get that?
14:23:40 <ais523> but I've been waiting months to make that pun
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14:28:41 <ehird> "this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric
14:28:44 <ehird> administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration."
14:28:49 <ehird> — http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/98rob/seriously_rnc_oh_its_on_now/c0btuoq
14:29:09 <ehird> <libertarian> Pfft, the free market can do that.
14:29:19 <ehird> <libertarian> With magic.
14:30:31 <ehird> (Funny how such a good comment is followed in two steps by: "tl;dr, but upvoted and made this comment so that I can come back tomorrow after I've had a good night's sleep.")
14:31:04 <ehird> (Six paragraphs, one is very short (being the title), two are short.)
14:31:17 <ehird> (Maybe we should just start prescribing ritalin to *everyone*.)
14:40:48 <pikhq> ehird: You've got to give libertarians *some* credit. ... I can't come up with any reason why.
14:41:50 <ehird> They are advancing stupidity research!
14:42:46 <Pthing> they made snow crash possible?
14:42:52 <pikhq> There we go. That's what I was looking for.
14:43:01 <ehird> Snow Crash - some definition of possible
14:43:15 <Pthing> i meant the writing of it
14:43:34 <ehird> What, did they take away all of his state-given resources or something?
14:43:36 <ehird> And this gave him superpowers?
14:44:00 <Pthing> he wouldn't have had the anarchocapitalist setting
14:44:06 <pikhq> ehird: Hmm. Well, *one* actual thing about libertarians: they take what the Republicans *claim* to be in support of and actually *support* it.
14:44:07 <ehird> good! then we wouldn't have as many shitty books
14:44:19 <pikhq> That is, they're at least *honest* about what they believe.
14:44:38 <pikhq> Ain't much, but it's something.
14:50:00 * ehird lols that yourworldoftext.com uses repeated ajax requests instead of comet
14:50:07 <ehird> Didn't people learn from the counter?
14:51:29 <pikhq> Y'know the major problem that "ZOMG FREE MARKET" people have? An ideal free market is like an ideal gas: it doesn't *exist*. It's just a useful model.
14:52:05 <ehird> It's made of magic and fluffiness.
14:52:13 <ehird> That's why, if you try and touch it to make it better, it turns into rage itself.
14:52:16 <ehird> And kills everyone.
14:52:23 <ehird> No matter how small the change.
14:52:30 <pikhq> ehird: So, what you're saying is that, if you get rid of all governments, it all magically works?
14:52:40 <ehird> No, you need a government to guard the free market, duh.
14:52:48 <ehird> Also to enforce property!
14:52:54 <ais523> a completely free market would fail because people dislike immigrants
14:53:04 <ehird> ais523: ok, *that's* ... a new one
14:53:07 <ais523> without free migration you can't have a free market
14:53:08 <pikhq> So, the government would do... Half of what the retards dislike.
14:53:15 <ehird> have i missed several steps of logical deduction or are you on crack
14:53:23 <pikhq> (antitrust regulation)
14:53:24 <ais523> because otherwise you don't have a free market in labour
14:53:29 <ehird> pikhq: nooo who said antitrust
14:53:33 <ehird> pikhq: they just stop other people interfering
14:53:43 <pikhq> ehird: Right, antitrust.
14:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: that's far too indirect for the libtards to understand!
14:53:56 <ais523> ehird: there's only about half a step of logical deduction there
14:54:25 <ehird> speaking of idiotic economics, I am going to carefully consider any PBA suggestion that doesn't come from BobTHJ :-P
14:54:48 <ehird> "My goal is to slowly continue to add information to my database until
14:54:48 <ehird> the full state of Agora is tracked."
14:54:52 <ehird> Kill him! Kill him with FIRE!
15:21:06 <AnMaster> sigh https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/359578
15:21:17 <AnMaster> ehird, guess what chipset I have? :D
15:21:34 <ehird> Gee, I was going to guess "not that one".
15:22:01 <AnMaster> it seems like an interesting game though
15:30:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I found a rather odd software. A train driving simulator.
15:30:52 <ehird> sounds... riveting
15:31:00 <ehird> drive from both ends at once and rip it in two!
15:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, there was only one supported train in the version in ubuntu at least.
15:31:32 <AnMaster> http://openbve.trainsimcentral.co.uk/
15:31:57 <AnMaster> btw, 3D graphics ran smooth of the laptop, but cpu fan ended up working at highest speed.
15:33:28 * AnMaster builds warzone2100 using gentoo portage. better gpu on there :P
15:33:41 <ehird> AnMaster: not better gpu
15:33:56 <ehird> the gpus should be somewhat equal
15:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I wonder how much video memory the intel one has...
15:34:13 <AnMaster> as in. dedicated. Not shared main memory
15:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what model is it?
15:34:42 <AnMaster> well. the gerforce 7600 has 512 MB RAM
15:35:50 <AnMaster> Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07) is all lspci says
15:38:08 <AnMaster> closest I can find is "host bridge"... hm
15:38:35 <AnMaster> which is "Mobile 4 Series Chipset Memory Controller Hub". Lots of details in that... NOT
15:38:52 <ehird> Oh, just tell me what laptop you bought.
15:39:00 <ehird> oops, *notebook <_< >_>
15:39:11 <AnMaster> R500 yes. *looks for specific model number*
15:39:24 <ehird> they only offer one integrated gpu
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15:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: GMA 4500MHD. It can use over 512MB of your RAM if you want.
15:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, main memory has to compete bandwidth with CPU though
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15:40:57 <AnMaster> as in, both graphics and programs running on CPU will use the same memory
15:44:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, the joke in IWC was quite awful today, don't you agree?
15:44:54 <AnMaster> darth and droids more than made up for it though :D
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15:54:25 * oerjan once again finds himself pausing instinctively for Comments on a Postcard to finish loading
15:55:06 <ehird> http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level this is great
15:56:03 <oerjan> i tried it a bit yesterday
15:56:33 <oerjan> i think i got to the dreaded pink strip level
15:57:01 <oklopol> don't tell me that's a game
15:57:01 <oerjan> no wait that wasn't it
15:57:07 <ehird> oklopol: it's one level
15:57:09 <ehird> over and over again
15:57:34 <ehird> oklopol: try it and see.
15:57:52 <oerjan> i gave up at that level "arrows" that treated the mouse (trackpad in my case) as arrow keys or something
15:58:13 <ehird> stage 15 has me stumped
15:58:40 <oerjan> i expect it would be easier with a genuine mouse
15:58:50 <ehird> you just have to go left and right
16:00:51 <Deewiant> My time was around 7:40 IIRC (did it yesterday)
16:01:01 <ehird> what, for all of it?
16:01:08 <ehird> I'm on stage 15 and 8 minutes in...
16:01:13 <ehird> how do you do stage 15
16:01:18 <ehird> it's the time to refresh one
16:01:23 <ehird> the button does nothing and there's a green plank
16:01:44 <ehird> JAVA GAMES ARE AN UNTRESSPASSABLE SANDBOX
16:01:48 <ehird> THIS IS MY MENTAL MODEL
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16:02:25 <ehird> hey it reset to 5 minutes
16:02:57 <oklopol> does it get hard at some poine?
16:02:59 <Deewiant> Heh, I guess it can't count the time you spent on level 15 :-)
16:03:32 <ehird> and it's not hard per se
16:03:34 <oklopol> how many levels are there?
16:03:35 <ehird> but you have to think a little
16:03:37 <Deewiant> It's an amusing design but not /really/ interesting
16:03:42 <ehird> but each one takes like 10 seconds
16:04:18 <ehird> how does stage 18 work...
16:04:20 <ehird> the collapsing one
16:04:23 <ehird> you go on top of right
16:05:58 <oklopol> okay, i managed to do something very clever on "time to refresh"
16:06:40 <ehird> that's what you're meant to.
16:06:52 <ehird> yeah confused me too
16:07:09 <oklopol> i just assumed it wasn't the correct thing to do
16:07:19 <fizzie> Thank the foo it was that short.
16:07:31 <fizzie> I have to finish my thesis today, and there are still 42 TODO comments in it.
16:07:58 <ehird> anyway stage 24 is the odd
16:08:18 <fizzie> Which one was 24 again?
16:08:46 <fizzie> Ah. Well, it wasn't that odd.
16:08:58 <fizzie> Though I did try shift first.
16:09:31 <oklopol> what's the idea of "mime's folly"?
16:09:40 <ehird> you know when they like
16:09:45 <ehird> and they look real
16:09:56 <ehird> (basically there's an invisible wall.)
16:10:08 <fizzie> It's pretty possible not to notice the wall, though.
16:10:20 <Deewiant> One level was annoying without QWERTY, I forget which one it was
16:10:33 <ehird> Deewiant: center keyboard
16:10:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "middle keyboarder" or some such.
16:12:04 <ehird> 11:57:62.5, 63 deaths
16:12:15 <Deewiant> With my layout those are FETH... could have been worse, but still
16:12:50 <Deewiant> (I.e. those are in the respective places of FETH on a QWERTY)
16:13:53 <Deewiant> Anyway, just in case you aren't aware there are other games featuring the elephant
16:13:55 <ehird> meh now I've addicted myself to flash games again
16:13:58 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave
16:13:58 <ehird> Deewiant: there ARE?
16:14:01 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
16:14:02 <ehird> i love that guy already!
16:14:11 <ehird> i mean i loved how it was just... an elephant
16:14:15 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run
16:14:40 <Deewiant> Achievement Unlocked was somewhat amusing
16:15:00 <ehird> wow elephant rave is x_x
16:15:28 <oklopol> okay god that was pointless
16:15:56 <ehird> try achievement unlocked
16:16:41 <fizzie> Incidentally, there was one elephant-themed 4k intro. It wasn't in the "serious 4k" category, but people still voted for it: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=53606
16:16:42 <oklopol> that was like completely the opposite of what kind of games i like, i want to think inside the box, and have complex puzzles
16:16:57 <ehird> achievement unlocked is like this is the only level + 34785345873485478583745
16:16:59 <oklopol> and this was the other way around
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16:23:56 <oerjan> so there are only 34785345873485478583746 levels? how frugal.
16:24:00 <Deewiant> Welp, managed that in 501 seconds and only had to check one hint
16:24:34 <Deewiant> I've done it before though, so it doesn't quite count
16:25:17 <fizzie> 80% done in 400 seconds, but I'm not going to try any time-trialings.
16:25:24 <fizzie> And my thesis! You bastards!
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16:26:04 <ehird> hee, i jumped top-right and killed myself like 5 times on the spike
16:26:47 <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
16:27:30 <ehird> `addquote <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
16:27:31 <fizzie> Based on the horizontal and vertical confusions, I hope total confusion is not "all direction keys at once", since I don't think I can get it with this keyboard. It's not, right?
16:27:31 <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
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16:29:28 * oerjan was going to suggest someone ban fizzie, but then...
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16:29:58 <ehird> is liftoff 3-2-1-fly up?
16:30:39 <oerjan> lament: please kickban fizzie. it's for his own good, he has a thesis to finish.
16:32:37 <ehird> Deewiant: how come 0-1-2-3-4-5 doesn't get that
16:33:02 <ehird> "I can count to 5!"
16:33:19 <Deewiant> Maybe you messed up and hit something twice
16:34:44 <fizzie> 890 seconds. Please stop with the elephants.
16:35:21 <ehird> I wonder why all those squares hide you
16:35:50 <ehird> you still have http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave and http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run to play, anyway!
16:36:12 <fizzie> I tried, but they seemed to be more skill-based.
16:36:20 <fizzie> Can you even "finish" them?
16:36:25 <ehird> That does not EXCUSE YOU
16:39:26 <ehird> what's programmer's credit
16:39:50 <ehird> that turned my elephant pink. maybe i mistyped.
16:40:02 <ehird> oh, must have been a different number
16:40:54 <ehird> what's speedy downfall :P
16:41:33 <ehird> oh, lol, the numbers change elephant colour
16:41:41 <ehird> so i must have done jmt02 or something at first
16:42:30 <ehird> yay i did speedy downfall
16:43:10 <ehird> must be something with that orange starting point
16:45:15 <ehird> Deewiant: what's the seat thing
16:45:54 <ehird> get off your seats
16:46:17 <Deewiant> Oh, that's the one I had to lookup
16:46:27 <Deewiant> There /is/ a hint button, you know
16:46:37 <ehird> I know, but I might see other ones.
16:46:50 <Deewiant> #32: Get Off Your Seats = Jump for 10 seconds nonstop
16:48:27 <ehird> Uhh, it told me I entered the contra code
16:48:46 <Deewiant> I think it just needs UUDDLRLR
16:48:58 <ehird> i did that in another app i think maybe
16:49:08 <ehird> so konami code right
16:49:10 <ehird> contra confused me
16:49:24 <ehird> Deewiant: too much free tiem is completion right
16:49:36 <ehird> so I just have to liftoff
16:51:00 <ehird> so i was on the right track
16:51:02 <ehird> you could have told me
16:53:47 <pikhq> Palin makes me ashamed of my species.
16:54:31 <pikhq> No. I intend to convince biologists that there are two extant subspecies of Homo sapiens.
16:54:42 <pikhq> Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens stultus.
16:54:45 <ehird> haha run elephant run is fun
16:54:52 <ehird> pikhq: no, homo sapiens sapiens and homo spaiens palin
16:55:08 <pikhq> ehird: Stultus covers more than Palin.
16:58:52 <ehird> run elephant run on easy was uh
17:01:02 * oerjan discovers to his surprise that pikhq is _not_ mangling latin there
17:01:29 * oerjan then swats ehird for doing exactly that -----###
17:01:42 <ehird> you're so horrible to me.
17:02:18 <pikhq> oerjan: My roommate studied Latin for 4 years in high school.
17:02:35 <pikhq> Mangled Latin makes him wince, and it's starting to make *me* wince.
17:03:39 * oerjan expects to be hit by Lex Muphriensis on the matter soon
17:03:43 <ehird> yesterday (well, today) i walked around town barefoot at 3am :D
17:04:53 <oerjan> in the weekend? i'd be worried about broken beer bottles...
17:05:09 <ehird> actually, the streets were all smooth
17:05:20 <ehird> a few little pieces of glass here and there but perfectly walkable
17:05:34 <ehird> also warm and very quiet
17:06:08 <ehird> clear sky, too; I swear if I looked above in just the right way I could see the earth's curvature :P
17:12:46 <ehird> huh, i just realised there's no "random video" button on youtube
17:13:19 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
17:14:02 <ehird> hmm, you could simulate it
17:14:15 <ehird> go to all the videos linked easily from youtube pages, go to every one of the related and same person ones in random order
17:14:19 <ehird> for like half an hour
17:14:25 <ehird> then just use your now fucked up recommendations
17:15:20 -!- Asztal has joined.
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17:26:09 <ehird> 3d glasses are amazing
17:27:06 <pikhq> US military expenditures: $623 billion. Rest of the world combined: $500 billion.
17:27:09 <pikhq> I'm going to go be sad now.
17:27:23 <ehird> i didn't know it was that bad
17:27:56 <pikhq> This... Is sheer madness.
17:28:10 <pikhq> And no, it is not Sparta.
17:28:46 <oerjan> look on the bright side of it. even with _that_ expenditure, they got trouble with Iraq + Afghanistan.
17:29:29 <pikhq> That's because guerilla warfare > organised warfare.
17:29:39 <ehird> discovery: drinking while wearing 3d glasses is hard
17:29:41 <pikhq> (see: most revolutions)
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17:37:21 -!- Asztal has joined.
17:43:54 <ehird> why does Wikipedia's preference page want to know my gender :\
17:44:12 <ais523> ehird: it's for languages other than English
17:44:18 <ais523> so they can use the right form of words like 'the'
17:44:23 <ehird> Optional: used for gender-correct addressing by the software. This information will be public.
17:44:35 <ehird> ais523: are you sure it isn't "he/her" or something?
17:44:48 <ehird> ais523: anyway, that's monumentally stupid; why does it need to be PUBLIC?
17:44:54 <ais523> that's how it could be relevant in English, but IIRC it comes up a lot more elsewhere
17:45:00 <ais523> and it's public because it's shown to other people
17:45:13 <ais523> as in, even something as simple as "user contributions" could change depending on the gender of the user
17:45:18 <ais523> in various foreign languages
17:45:25 <ais523> and that's in the sidebar, for everyone
17:45:35 <ehird> and I thought English was genderist
17:46:12 <ehird> ais523: what does it do if you leave it unspecified?
17:46:16 <ehird> and why can't it do that for everyone?
17:47:09 <ehird> I bet it does something stupid, like assume the user is male or something
17:47:20 <ais523> given what I know of MediaWiki, that wouldn't surprise me in the least
17:48:00 <ehird> wait till they find out that some people consider themselves neither! we'll get two sliders
17:48:04 <ehird> maleness and femaleness
17:48:07 <ehird> and they have to add up to 100
17:48:13 <ehird> from that, it randomly weights which to use
17:48:24 <ehird> isn't engineering wonderful
17:50:06 <ais523> one slider, obviously; the bit to one side is maleness, to the other side is femaleness
17:50:18 <ais523> that way, the shape of the UI enforces the add up to 100
17:51:02 <ehird> ais523: that's an interaction designer solution!
17:51:15 <ehird> actually the engineers would probably expose the two as text boxes
17:51:28 <ais523> nah, as query-string parameters
17:51:30 <ehird> ais523: I'm joking as to how the engineering mindset would solve the problem of "but what about people who aren't either?"
17:51:46 <oerjan> and you haven't even considered furries yet...
17:52:01 <ais523> oerjan: don't furries have a gender?
17:52:02 <ehird> no, furries don't think they're spiritually animals; that's otherkin
17:52:09 <ehird> and they still, presumably, have a gender
17:52:11 <oerjan> surely that depends on species
17:52:21 <ehird> I don't think there are ameoba otherkin
17:52:21 <ais523> anyway, I know that the Guild (which is responsible for the Guild Council I mention sometimes) recognises at least 7 genders
17:52:31 <ehird> ais523: err... which ones?
17:52:35 <ais523> they're rather strong on equal opportunities and political correctness
17:52:42 <ehird> please don't tell me they think transgender is a gender in itself
17:52:47 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:52:50 -!- ehird has joined.
17:53:12 <ais523> ehird: male, female, transsexual male, transsexual female, transgendered male, transgendered female, and indeterminate
17:53:28 <oerjan> we would not want to engender a transgression here
17:53:34 <ehird> Transgendered male; also known as "female". (Or "male", depending on which way aroudn it is).
17:54:10 <ehird> And transsexual male/female, also known as female/male (or, again, male/female).
17:54:27 <ehird> In conclusion, that list is identical to "male, female, indeterminate".
17:54:46 <ais523> ehird: they installed gender-neutral toilets, so as to be able to give a set of toilets that people in the five less common genders could go into without arguments
17:55:01 <ehird> BUT FOUR OF THE "LESS COMMON GENDERS" AREN'T GENDERS!
17:56:07 * oerjan just has to mention the gender neutral pronoun h'orsh'it he recently saw somewhere
17:58:07 <ehird> ais523: just to confirm, if someone is a transgendered male-to-female and then has a sex change operation, even though their legal documents say female your university still glasses them as transsexual male/female?
17:58:17 <ehird> weird definition of politically correct
17:58:30 <ais523> ehird: the distinction between transsexual and transgendered is whether there's been a sex-change operation or not, IIRC
17:58:45 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:58:46 <ehird> ais523: I know that; read my line again
17:58:49 <ehird> that isn't what I asked
17:59:11 <ehird> someone who was a transgender male-to-female and then had a sex change operation is a transsexual, but their gender isn't "transsexual female", it's "female"
17:59:14 <ais523> ehird: well, there are biological differences...
17:59:26 <ehird> ais523: it's a list of genders
17:59:28 <ehird> not a list of sexes
17:59:36 <ais523> anyway, you don't want to go into how many sexual orientations they recognise, I don't actually know myself but it's a lot
17:59:59 <ehird> heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual? :P
18:00:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:11 <ehird> unless it's non-sex/gender orientations too
18:03:19 <Asztal> don't forget pansexual
18:03:49 <ehird> Asztal: but pansexuality is just a kind of bisexual imo
18:04:06 <ehird> also on wp, polysexual: "Polysexuality refers to people who are attracted to more than one gender or sex but do not wish to identify as bisexual because it implies that there are only two binary genders or sexes."
18:04:12 <ehird> that, for instance, is just a qualm with the name
18:04:15 <ehird> not a different position
18:04:19 <oerjan> i do not recommend sex with hot pans
18:04:21 <ehird> i think pansexuality is pretty similar
18:06:09 <ehird> When I said "use MathML when possible", I meant that.
18:06:23 <ehird> We clearly have very, very different definitions of "possible".
18:06:33 <ais523> ehird: it's probably to do with what's possible for MediaWiki
18:06:36 <ais523> which is probably not a lot
18:06:38 <ehird> ais523: "6 ! = 1 \times 2 \times 3 \times 4 \times 5 \times 6 = 720. \ "
18:06:54 <ehird> Yeah, totally impossible.
18:07:00 <ais523> oh, and there are actually semi-official guides telling you how to force things to render as images not HTML
18:07:06 <ais523> so that all the equations in an article look the same
18:07:17 <ehird> err, how do you purge again?
18:07:19 <ehird> ?action=purge does nothing
18:07:31 <pikhq> ais523: ... MediaWiki's math rendering is... TeX...
18:07:35 <ais523> it's ?action=purge, which if you're logged in appears to do nothing
18:07:44 <ais523> pikhq: no, it's some custom format that thinks it's TeX, IIRC
18:07:54 <ehird> I think they use real LaTeX nowadays
18:07:56 <ehird> ais523: OK, it must be a bug of some sort; "0! = 1 \ " renders as an image
18:08:00 <pikhq> ais523: ... They don't actually use TeX? MURDER.
18:08:10 <ehird> pikhq: TeX doesn't do pngs.
18:08:20 <ais523> it looks very like TeX, but it's less powerful, presumably to prevent people writing infinite loops into the code of the document
18:08:28 <ehird> pikhq: Do you, incidentally, use pdftex?
18:08:30 <ehird> That's not TeX, either.
18:09:07 <ehird> maybe MediaWiki knows that Safari doesn't do MathML
18:09:10 <pikhq> ehird: There's the TeX program, and there's the TeX language.
18:09:13 <ehird> an overly clever definition of "possible"
18:09:20 <oerjan> ehird: adding spacing commands like "\ " is the recommended way of forcing non-html iirc
18:09:36 <ais523> oerjan: IIRC, you use negative-width spaces, to really force non-HTML
18:09:43 <ais523> and people put that in the articles
18:09:49 <ais523> so all the equations look the same
18:09:53 <ais523> thus defeating the point of the preference
18:11:11 * ehird removes \ in a user space copy
18:12:21 <ehird> The page "User:Ehird/sandbox" (links | delete) has been moved to "User:Ehird/Sandbox" (edit | links | revert | log)
18:12:58 <ehird> ais523: indeed, removing "\ " fixes it
18:13:26 <ais523> does MathML have a code for "space added specifically to stop this rendering as anything but an image", I wonder?
18:14:14 <ehird> grr, there should be a way to delete your own user subpages
18:14:30 <ehird> I now have a useless vector.css link being added to every page
18:14:36 <ais523> ehird: put {{db-user}} on them
18:14:46 <ais523> and an admin will delete it pretty quickly, those are really noncontroversial
18:14:54 <pikhq> Fuck violations of the law of least surprise.
18:14:57 <ehird> should be automatic, grumble
18:15:02 <ais523> ehird: that would be abusable
18:15:05 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ehird/vector.css
18:15:10 <ais523> rename a popular article into your userspace, then delete it...
18:15:25 <ehird> also, so don't allow renaming a popular article into your userspace
18:15:34 <oerjan> pikhq: i bet that'll surprise them
18:15:35 <ehird> the work required to put it back is the same as undeleting
18:15:48 <ais523> what if you created it in the first place, and it came from your userspace?
18:15:51 <ehird> oerjan: actually, I find I still gullibly trust computers to work as I expect
18:16:08 <ehird> ais523: ugh, i don't care; but templates aren't being expanded
18:16:09 <ais523> ehird: it's in CAT:SD anyway
18:16:10 <ehird> could you delete it?
18:16:14 <oerjan> it's the fluoride in the water
18:16:22 <ais523> just the category doesn't render on the page
18:17:00 * ehird considers redesigning vector in userspace and then hax0ring wikipedia to set it for everyone
18:20:56 <pikhq> I find it somewhat perverse that water flouridisation is not common in Colorado Springs...
18:21:09 <ehird> Don'tcha now they can control your mind through that stuff.
18:21:15 <pikhq> (... water flouridisation was discovered there, because natural water sources there have flouride.)
18:21:41 <ehird> pikhq: Dude, do you know what that means?
18:21:45 <ehird> GOD is controlling our minds.
18:21:52 <oerjan> well, why would they add it if it occurs naturally, duh
18:22:00 <ehird> oerjan: he was joking
18:22:02 <pikhq> oerjan: They take it *out*.
18:22:44 <pikhq> ehird: They have to take some of it out, though; the amount of flouride in the water supply mottles the teeth.
18:22:54 <pikhq> ... They just take *all* of it out.
18:23:14 <ais523> I thought it was pregnant women who were hurt most by overflouridation
18:23:39 <ais523> I know because there was a row about it here in the UK a couple of weeks ago, a water company was putting far too much flouride in and ignoring their own warning mechanisms
18:25:10 <pikhq> ais523: It deforms the bones of babies.
18:25:19 <pikhq> And mottles the teeth of all.
18:25:27 <ehird> right, that's it; I'm mocking up a design of Wikipedia that doesn't involve information clutter, showing things you don't need, unexcellent typo… you know, negating this list made it awkward.
18:25:33 <ehird> pikhq: sounds awesome
18:26:00 <pikhq> Overflouridisation is t3h suck.
18:26:14 <ais523> ehird: you'll find that more or less every link on a typical Wikipedia page is either needed by someone, or the WMF insist on it
18:26:26 <ehird> ais523: not the pages, the chrome
18:26:34 <ehird> and besides, I can hide the ones not needed at the moment
18:26:38 <ais523> I'm talking about things like the links around the edges
18:26:40 <ehird> and nobody can stop me using it as a user CSS
18:26:55 <ehird> ais523: right, there's absolutely no need to have them like that at all, I can assure you
18:27:08 <ehird> (wow the pdf version thing is slow)
18:27:16 <ehird> (it's at 1% for a tiny article)
18:27:22 <ais523> well, certainly as an admin, being able to hit things like user contribs, block, etc, in 1 click is highly useful
18:27:33 <ehird> oh, it went from 1% to 100%
18:27:38 <ehird> ais523: oh, absolutely
18:27:42 <ais523> number of clicks is important in case you're doing it in something like 50 tabs in parallel, a ribbon wouldn't really work for that
18:27:47 <ehird> i'm not a very good designer but i'm not an idiot
18:28:00 <ehird> besides, admins do obviously have different needs than users
18:28:35 <ais523> nah, because non-admins do adminny work too
18:28:42 <ais523> at least, they're supposed to
18:28:50 <ehird> they don't block people
18:29:05 <ais523> mass reports to AIV have happened in the past
18:29:18 <ais523> although if it gets too over-the-top, ANI is generally a better choice
18:30:05 <ehird> I'm mainly interested in something I can read without wanting to gnaw my eyes out, and secondarily something I can do brief editing and administrivia to quite easily
18:30:31 <ehird> maybe there could be a "I'm going to stay in the house for a few months editing" button :P
18:30:36 <ehird> that enables monobook
18:31:04 <ehird> "I hate it when errors on the main page got reported in the wrong place and they got fixed pretty quickly, then my properly placed error reports on WP:ERRORS get ignored."
18:31:09 <ehird> do you think they realise?
18:31:41 <ehird> realise that people have used the main page since the stone age and will do so forever? and that thus they have to check both places, thus slowing them down?
18:31:53 <ehird> it's almost enough to make a man nominate WP:ERRORS for deletion
18:32:03 <Pthing> user contributions is a useful function
18:32:10 <ais523> ehird: it's to do with watchlisting
18:32:18 <ais523> Talk:Main Page tends to be rather fastmoving
18:32:20 <Pthing> if somebody makes one stupid error, if you see their user contributions, they usually make lots of them
18:32:23 <Pthing> and you can laugh at them
18:32:27 <ais523> so if you report an error there, an innocuous change might be next there
18:32:28 <ehird> ais523: but they check it anyway to complain at them!
18:32:31 <ais523> and hide the watchlist entry
18:32:40 <ehird> so they're already doing that hard work
18:32:53 <ais523> ehird: it'll be slower, manually checking as opposed to just having a watchlist entry
18:33:09 <ehird> ais523: I'd be fine if Talk:Main Page had a subsection called Errors, with a link "add one" that edits the included template page
18:33:20 <ehird> oh no, my fans just spinned up
18:33:25 <ais523> or have people changed their minds again?
18:33:28 <ehird> ais523: it does, but it's in the header
18:33:31 <ehird> and it doesn't include the error page
18:33:48 <ehird> people who would report it in talk:main page don't know about the + button, but they DO ignore headers and warnings like everyone else
18:33:57 <ehird> if it looked like a subsection with a big "Add one" link, it'd be used
18:34:53 <ehird> "Wikipedia is a free content encyclopedia written by a global community of volunteers. Sometimes, false information is added to Wikipedia. Do not trust information in Wikipedia - use additional references"
18:34:54 <ehird> — Mobile Wikipedia
18:34:59 <ehird> they should replace Wikipedia's disclaimer with that
18:35:41 <ais523> the WMF would go crazy
18:35:47 <ais523> but then, they do anyway
18:36:20 <ehird> it's funny that encyclopedia dramatica is run more smoothly and with less drama than wikipedia
18:37:54 <ehird> hmm, [[Wikipedia]] isn't an FA
18:40:21 * ehird redesigns around [[Barack Obama]]
18:40:38 <ehird> under the assumption that it's a relatively normal article and is obviously well-maintained
18:40:44 <ehird> although it's unusually long...
18:41:38 <pikhq> ehird: The whole cult-of-personality thing.
18:41:50 <ehird> pikhq: what in particular?
18:42:24 <pikhq> ehird: ... There's quite a few people who seem to think that Obama is the second coming or something.
18:42:28 <ehird> Half of that article is probably devoted to rebutting the birthers
18:42:51 <ehird> for a more objective source
18:42:52 <ehird> http://conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama
18:42:55 <Pthing> where are thse people, pikhq
18:43:06 <Pthing> it seems like a good republican talking point
18:43:07 <ehird> "allegedly[1][2][3][4][5] born in Honolulu"
18:43:22 <ehird> haha wow Obamunism xD
18:43:30 <Pthing> but the only people i saw get really knicker-wetting joyful over Obama was during the election
18:43:42 <Pthing> and huge parts of that were "hooray bush is gone forever"
18:44:59 <ehird> see, what if Palin is actually Bush
18:44:59 <pikhq> Pthing: It has at least cooled off, yes.
18:45:17 <pikhq> It was horrid during the election. Now, it's at least a few silly people.
18:45:32 <Pthing> whereas whole scads of the Right must have had a terrible buttock rash for all eight years
18:45:36 <pikhq> What scares the shit out of me is the Palin followers.
18:46:14 <Pthing> It surprised me just how rapidly those people went from EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU'VE GOT TO RESPECT THE PRESIDENT to HE'S NOT A REAL PRESIDENT, ALL AMERICANS DISSENT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
18:46:25 <Pthing> I wasn't politically aware when Clinton was in
18:46:36 <Pthing> so all along I thought they actually *believed* that
18:46:38 <pikhq> Are you familiar with doublethink?
18:46:47 <Pthing> sure, I felt stupid when it happened
18:47:07 <Pthing> but really it was amazing how rapid the turnabout was
18:47:23 <pikhq> Republicans have a very simple belief system: the corporations are right.
18:47:34 <ehird> one day was "Well if the President wants to wiretap and uh and kill some terrists and stuff then you have to accept it because WE THE PEOPLE ELECTED HIM"
18:47:35 <pikhq> What's good for the people screwing us is good for us.
18:47:40 <Pthing> It's entirely accurate, but it's unfair.
18:47:45 <ehird> "Maybe if someone uh ASSASSINATED him that'd be okayyyy?"
18:47:48 <Pthing> It's accurate because that's how it's been set up
18:47:55 <ehird> pikhq: ais523 came up with a wonderful way to understand republicans
18:47:56 <Pthing> but the manifestation is more complicated than that
18:48:12 <ehird> if you take it as axiomatic that bad things happen to people because they deserve it, the republican platform makes perfect sense
18:48:12 <pikhq> Pthing: Obviously. Even simple things are complex.
18:48:15 <ehird> and the democrats are insane
18:48:43 <pikhq> ehird: Except that they claim that that axiom is from the Bible.
18:49:03 <ehird> and as we all know, the bible is axiomatic because it says so!
18:49:08 <pikhq> There's very few things that are axiomatic in the Bible. ;)
18:49:25 <ehird> i like the part where jesus pretty much revokes everything
18:49:39 <ehird> "Hmm... don't you think these rules are a bit stringent on the masses? Will they BUY this stuff?"
18:49:44 <ehird> "...you're right."
18:49:51 <ehird> "But we can't just GET RID of it all! That's our BACKSTORY!"
18:49:55 <pikhq> "Fuck that shit. Be good to each other.
18:50:00 <ehird> "Well... just put some sort of note about all the stuff before it being false, kay?"
18:50:05 <ehird> *THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER*
18:50:13 <oerjan> ehird: and there is also the part where he claims he isn't changing a single letter of anything
18:50:17 <ehird> "Fags will burn in hell!"
18:50:29 <ehird> oerjan: the part about clams was allegory, man
18:50:46 <pikhq> oerjan: He claims rather that the law was in fact intended to end. He's not changing it, he's the succcessor to it.
18:51:01 <ehird> pikhq: couldn't god just have made humans not stupid fuckers at the start and given them the perfect law?
18:51:17 <Pthing> he could, but we didn't want it
18:51:36 <Pthing> to within certain tolerances
18:51:48 <ehird> he's fuckin' omnipotent, what's his problem
18:51:54 <Pthing> his problem is he was lonely
18:51:55 <ehird> he did fine with the rest of the universe
18:52:04 <Pthing> and wanted to create something that could love him back
18:52:12 <ehird> Pthing: but he could just change metareality so he wasn't lonely!
18:52:20 <Pthing> he'd have known the difference
18:52:28 <oerjan> but he never metareality he liked!
18:52:34 <ehird> he wouldn't simulate having someone who loves him
18:52:43 <ehird> he'd just make it so that the concept of "god is lonely" is objectively false
18:52:54 <Pthing> god can't trick himself like that
18:52:55 <ehird> the man's smart enough to create a universe.
18:53:02 <Pthing> that kind of logic is for created things
18:53:14 <ehird> Pthing: congrats, you just reminded me why I hate arguing with religious people
18:53:21 <ehird> i'm going to go put my head in a blender now
18:53:35 <Pthing> well man it's not a hard idea, and it even works here
18:54:05 <ehird> but that was just the pre-starter argument!
18:54:05 <Pthing> you can put it this way, he's omniscient, so he'll know he fucked with his own mind
18:54:18 <ehird> it'd be about five years until i got to the main course
18:54:36 <ehird> Pthing: the universe is just fucking with his own reality.
18:55:30 <pikhq> ... THEY ACTUALLY THINK WEATHER UNDERGROUND IS A TERRORIST GROUP.
18:55:35 <pikhq> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
18:55:40 <Pthing> "universe" and "reality" are both words to describe Creation
18:56:25 <ehird> pikhq: I wouldn't say terrorist, but "the group conducted a campaign of bombings through the mid-1970s, including aiding the jailbreak and escape of Timothy Leary"
18:56:43 <ehird> In 1970 the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, under the name "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO). The bombing attacks mostly targeted government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by evacuation warnings, along with communiqués identifying the particular matter that the attack was intended to protest. For the bombing of the United States Capitol on March 1, 1971, they issued a commun
18:56:57 <ehird> iqué saying it was "in protest of the US invasion of Laos." For the bombing of The Pentagon on May 19, 1972, they stated it was "in retaliation for the US bombing raid in Hanoi." For the January 29, 1975 bombing of the United States Department of State Building, they stated it was "in response to escalation in Vietnam."[5]
18:57:12 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so they actually have justification for the term.
18:57:23 <ehird> Yeah; that, at least, is not one of their crazier statements.
18:57:24 <pikhq> In other words, not complete craziness, just hyperbole.
18:58:11 <pikhq> I find it amusing that they think is a radical, communist liberal.
18:58:27 <pikhq> ... How many communists do corporate welfare, exactly?
18:59:19 <ehird> You missed a wordy word
19:00:21 <pikhq> And they think that his policies will lead to a second Great Depression.
19:00:32 <pikhq> What, like... Now?
19:00:37 <pikhq> Before he got in office?
19:01:05 <pikhq> And... They think he's muslim.
19:01:13 <pikhq> Good Lord, people.
19:01:58 <pikhq> And they think he's actually mind controlling people.
19:02:10 <pikhq> WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MOTHERFUCKING CRAZY.
19:02:17 <pikhq> THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS.
19:02:22 <ehird> and BobTHJ believes a good portion of all this!
19:03:07 <ehird> "Obama tries to downplay his Islamic background by claiming that his Kenyan Muslim father was a "confirmed atheist" before Obama was born, but in fact less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, agnostics, or non-religious."
19:03:11 <ehird> As we all know, 1%s don't exist.
19:03:23 <pikhq> It is significantly more plausible to claim that there are aliens coming down to earth on a regular basis.
19:03:32 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:03:37 <ais523> there are aliens coming into the country on a regular basis, at least
19:03:43 <ais523> why does everyone forget what "alien" actually means...
19:03:45 <pikhq> ais523: From outer space.
19:04:05 <ehird> ais523: Die, prescriptivist!
19:04:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription
19:04:30 <oerjan> Mexico is also a space
19:04:32 <ehird> Alien doesn't mean that,
19:04:37 <ehird> because people don't use alien to mean that, in general.
19:04:39 <oerjan> and it's outside the US
19:04:42 <ehird> (unless the context is obviously immigration)
19:05:00 <pikhq> Anyways. At least claims regarding aliens sometimes are regarding unexplained situations.
19:05:04 <oerjan> oklopol: no you're not
19:05:21 <pikhq> It's at least possible to say "We don't know WTF that is, it might be aliens."
19:05:46 <pikhq> But... Obama being Muslim, and from Kenya? There is a huge amount of evidence against it.
19:06:12 <ehird> they're just scared racist shits
19:06:14 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, right. They hates logic.
19:06:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm totally a prescriptivist
19:06:26 <ehird> they can't attack his policies convincingly, so they attack him
19:06:28 <pikhq> They refuse to believe that they are wrong.
19:07:03 <ehird> [[Obama alleged Saddam "has developed chemical and biological weapons" but was willing to condone the most hideous use of torture[124] from a man who "butchers his own people."]]
19:07:15 <ehird> Of course, if Saddam wants to waterboard, that's just fine, now, isn't it?
19:07:22 <pikhq> Because bullshit is easier to argue against than reality.
19:08:10 <oklopol> oerjan: this is where you say "incredibly not"
19:08:51 <pikhq> ehird: Anyways. If these idiots were European, they would be voting for the Nazis.
19:09:02 <pikhq> The crazies are everywhere.
19:09:08 <ehird> It's called the BNP.
19:09:18 <pikhq> ehird: ... Yes, that was my point.
19:09:20 <oklopol> and i'm leaving now, so i win
19:09:51 <oerjan> oklopol: that's just what you are saying
19:10:04 <ehird> You know what's funny? Britain is not that much more left-wing than the US, and yet even our right-wing party fully supports universal healthcare and even a lot of privacy.
19:10:10 <ehird> The US is just insane.
19:10:44 <ehird> Anyway, Conservapedia's Atheism article used to start with a picture of Hitler.
19:10:50 <ehird> There's no point even trying to understand or rebut them.
19:11:38 <pikhq> ehird: ... Wasn't Hitler nominally Christian?
19:11:46 <ehird> More than nominally.
19:11:54 <oerjan> yay, now it has Marquis de Sade
19:11:57 <ehird> Unless you ask "conservatives".
19:12:51 <oerjan> pikhq: "hitler was not an atheist / was a christian" articles kept showing up on reddit all the time
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19:13:25 <oerjan> probably still there in /atheism which is no longer on the main page (last i looked)
19:13:28 <ehird> the fun part of /r/atheism is that it only makes any sense if you believe conservative christians are reading it
19:14:08 <oerjan> ehird: ah so you think it's mostly crap too?
19:14:39 <GregorR-L> I don't even remember what site this /r/foo stuff refers to :P
19:15:00 <ehird> the top two links in /r/atheism right now,
19:15:04 <ais523> interesting fact: Hitler was commonly believed to be male
19:15:07 <oerjan> GregorR-L: was mentioned the line before you entered
19:15:09 <ehird> "My new hobby. Leaving atheism themed books on display model ebook readers. This one is at Target." // real productive! have you got a life yet?
19:15:17 <ehird> "To all those who post the repetitive "This is a circle jerk..." to /a/atheism. Getting in the middle of a circle jerk and opening your mouth actually makes it "Bukkake"."
19:15:23 <ehird> ZINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
19:15:34 <ehird> you totally rebutted that guy, now get back to jerking everyone else off.
19:15:39 <ehird> in conclusion, something
19:15:40 <pikhq> ehird: That... Is a truely dumb sub-reddit.
19:15:47 <ehird> Your spelling is truely dumb.
19:15:50 <oerjan> ehird: ah yes there was a great comment quote yesterday, let me see if i can find it
19:16:08 <ehird> Anyway, a subreddit for atheism isn't an inherently bad idea; it's just that this incarnation is worthless.
19:16:27 <ehird> ais523: i'm pretty sure hitler was male :P
19:16:36 <ais523> ehird: see what I mean?
19:16:46 <ehird> ais523: are you metatrolling :D
19:16:52 <pikhq> GregorR-L: We got here from discussing Conservapedia's article on Obama.
19:16:52 <ehird> I never metatroll I didn't like/
19:17:12 <pikhq> SECRET MUSLIM COMMUNIST KENYAN ZOMG KILLING AMERICA!
19:17:13 <GregorR-L> But he's not an atheist, he's a muslim! :P
19:17:39 <GregorR-L> Have they added any new "Muslim" "evidence" since last I checked?
19:18:09 <ehird> Hey, maybe Conservapedia is part of Obama's socialist eugenics program.
19:18:16 <ais523> anyway, I retroactively invoke Godwin's Law on someone or other, I don't particularly care who
19:18:21 <ais523> all the conversation since then never happened
19:18:29 <ehird> Anyone who makes a non-satiric edit to Conservapedia won't be allowed to breed when the program comes into place.
19:18:36 <ehird> And their existing babies will be harvested for food.
19:18:46 <pikhq> ais523: Probably about when we claimed that they would be voting for Nazis if they were in Europe.
19:18:55 <ais523> don't Conservapedia claim that they'll sue vandals?
19:19:02 <ehird> ais523: also, anyone who swears
19:19:06 <ehird> http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Commandments
19:19:12 <ehird> "Everything you post must be true"
19:19:17 <ais523> I don't even want to visit that link, the URL is scary enough
19:19:19 <ehird> "must be family-friendly, clean, concise, and without gossip or foul language"
19:19:22 <oerjan> found it: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/98sg3/please_stop_spamming_the_main_reddit_with_your/c0bu3p4
19:19:24 <ehird> "When referencing dates based on the approximate birth of Jesus, give appropriate credit for the basis of the date (B.C. or A.D.). "BCE" and "CE" are unacceptable substitutes because they deny the historical basis. See CE."
19:19:26 <pikhq> ... A plausible claim, when you look at the nationalist parties (that are also ZOMG SOCIALISTS, if US opinions are to be believed)
19:19:33 <ehird> Minors under 16 years old use this site. Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.
19:19:46 <ehird> the rest are rather boring apart from
19:19:51 <ehird> "Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry."
19:19:52 <ais523> wait, how do they know who your employer is?
19:20:04 <pikhq> ehird: Without gossip? I'm afraid to make an edit following that, I would have to replace the articles with Wikipedia.
19:20:05 <ehird> ais523: Professional stalkers!
19:20:16 <ais523> also, haven't they just made an unfulfilable promise if you vandalise it when unemployed?
19:20:22 <ehird> pikhq: also true, also without personal opinion
19:20:32 <ehird> ais523: Unemployed people have no money.
19:20:36 <ehird> Their parents kick them out as soon as they can get a job.
19:20:40 <ehird> So, they don't have internet.
19:20:40 <pikhq> ehird: Like I said, Wikipedia.
19:20:46 <pikhq> Or maybe selections of Uncyclopedia.
19:20:48 <ehird> Only True Americans who work can access Conservapedia, and they have jobs.
19:21:34 <ehird> wikipedia needs a level above featured articles
19:21:39 <ehird> like Super Featured Articles, there's only 10 at once
19:25:15 <ais523> there's the main page featured article
19:26:30 <ehird> ais523: that's not a particularly good featured article, though
19:26:55 <ais523> not random, there's a featured article director who plans the featured articles on each day ages in advance
19:27:21 <ehird> ais523: Raul has said he just picks them randomly iirc
19:27:38 <ais523> not always, they tend to be on appropriate days
19:27:45 <ais523> and some are left out due to being inappropriate for the main page
19:27:46 <ehird> that's just sometimes, though
19:28:01 <ehird> anyway, point is, they're not picked for being really good FAs
19:29:22 * oerjan checks on a hunch whether "pornography" is a featured article. but alas.
19:36:55 <ehird> "I have over $100,000 of software in my saddlebags. We’re sending a release to about twelve customers. […] I reach the counter with a few minutes to spare, and off the packages go. Declared worth, about ten bucks each; it’s just duplicated disks and photocopied manuals after all."
19:37:05 <ehird> Never before has someone so succinctly make a point they weren't trying to.
19:37:16 <ehird> *made a point, maybe.
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19:39:09 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/98zwt/hypothetical_situation_if_someone_were_walking/ ← $0 due to the inevitable legal results being something in the vicinity of $infinity
19:40:19 <ehird> http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/ amazing
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19:42:58 <ehird> pikhq_: http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/
19:43:23 <pikhq_> *Thank* you, oh glorious Internet, for dropping connections at the drop of a hat.
19:43:54 <ehird> omg, it has videos too
19:43:58 <ehird> I will never sleep again
19:45:55 * ehird tries to make a rotating checkerboard
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19:47:27 <bsmntbombdood> how would you transmit text to a human at 1000 7-bit characters per minute?
19:47:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ethernet cable :P
19:48:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well let's say a word is five letters
19:48:31 <ehird> i'm sure you could learn to hear at 200wpm
19:49:03 <ehird> make up a language, obviously
19:49:24 <bsmntbombdood> do you think you could understand chorded electrical shocks?
19:49:33 <ehird> no, I'd be too busy screaming
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19:53:44 <ehird> human's the bottleneck there
19:54:03 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: well my knowledge has a bit of a blind spot there
20:01:05 <oklopol> so 116 b/s, might be close to human peak listening speed
20:02:38 <ehird> oklopol: 116 bytes a second?
20:02:42 <ehird> how can we possibly listen that fast
20:02:54 <ehird> oklopol: so 116 b/s,
20:03:15 <oklopol> well yes, that's the one place where you need to care about caps
20:04:29 <oerjan> actually there are others, such as m vs. M prefix
20:05:00 <oklopol> oerjan: much less confusing though, also for bits, not at all so
20:06:22 <oklopol> anyway i'd say the actual used information content per english character is about two bits, by that random estimate you'd need about 20 words per second
20:06:38 <oklopol> which contains another random estimate of 5 characters per wordds
20:07:08 <ehird> a letter is 5 bits isn't it
20:07:25 <oklopol> that doesn't really mean much
20:07:44 <oklopol> sdhgjhaerw takes about an hour to explain, abababababa takes about a second to say
20:08:02 <oerjan> ehird: compressed size
20:08:25 <Deewiant> sdhgjhaerw is only about two syllables, much quicker to say than abababababa
20:08:35 <ehird> Deewiant: crazy finns
20:09:02 <Deewiant> Not really, I just think "sdhgjh" is quite compressible
20:09:16 <oerjan> ehird: that would be crazy georgians, i don't think finns could pronounce that
20:09:16 <oklopol> yeah the estimate is based on current best compression
20:09:40 <oklopol> but i've heard 1 bit per character is how much a human needs, no idea what that's based on
20:10:55 <oerjan> oklopol: i've heard that too.
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20:12:25 <ehird> ummmmmm so actually everything sucks, did you heard
20:12:57 <oerjan> ah there are unit differences too
20:13:05 <oerjan> s = second, S = siemens
20:15:07 <oerjan> ehird: that is a matter of some gravity
20:15:18 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuck youuuuuuuuuu oerjan
20:15:45 <oerjan> what, did i cause an accident?
20:16:58 <ehird> http://fragsworth.com/video_functions/781/
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20:53:15 <Warrigal_> bsmntbombdood: attach things to their fingers that move them as if they were typing the text.
20:53:31 <ehird> that only gets you 100wpm
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21:13:56 <bsmntbombdood> it would be nice if it was passive and hard to see
21:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> you know, like electrodes across your belly or something
21:14:43 <ehird> what exactly are you doing
21:15:25 <ehird> cool, you can print a book on the fly from an arbitrary set of wikipedia pages; with greyscale images
21:15:28 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/PediaPress_Books_-_interior_2.jpg
21:27:56 <Warrigal_> So, what's the purpose of this, again?
21:29:20 <Warrigal_> oklopol: I think that's based on people's ability to predict the next letter of a sentence, given a dictionary.
21:30:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: That's pretty cool actually ...
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22:08:40 -!- ehird has joined.
22:08:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: it is cool!
22:09:29 <ehird> I wonder how many books it'd take to get all of articlespace
22:09:49 <ehird> How are book prices calculated?
22:09:49 <ehird> The cost of a book depends on the number of pages contained in addition to a base fee.
22:09:57 <ehird> A single book has a maximum size of approximately 800 pages. If a larger book is ordered, it is automatically split up into multiple volumes.
22:10:29 <ehird> so about 2500 books
22:10:32 <ehird> assuming 1 page/article
22:10:40 <ehird> which knowing how large some articles are and how short others are, seems fair
22:11:26 <ehird> still, less than $55 for 800 pages
22:11:49 <ehird> much less it seems, 819 = $37.76
22:12:00 <ehird> lol http://pediapress.com/books/show/bdsm/
22:16:16 <ehird> http://pediapress.com/books/show/nothing/
22:16:23 <ehird> A good use of $21.92 + shipping
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22:31:07 <ehird> Who brought you from #haskell? :-P
22:31:12 <ehird> pikhq, I suspect you.
22:31:38 <timmcd> Just filtered the freenode.net channels for one pertaining to esoteric languages.
22:31:41 <ehird> There are too many combined Haskell/esolang lovers :P
22:31:49 <ehird> timmcd: I'm surprised you could tell we're about esolangs with the topic
22:32:01 <ehird> We're http://esolangs.org/
22:34:04 -!- pikhq__ has joined.
22:34:08 <timmcd> ehird / anyone else: http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
22:34:12 <ehird> pikhq__: fix your damn net
22:34:13 <timmcd> Think that looks allright?
22:34:16 <ehird> timmcd: Ooooh you're that guy
22:34:24 <ehird> I don't associate new names for a few days
22:34:27 <timmcd> Idk if that's good or bad, ehird...
22:34:34 <ehird> I just saw you in the logs :P
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22:34:53 <timmcd> I want as much feedback as I can get ;)
22:37:40 <ehird> timmcd: It looks basically like assembly with an odd syntax and convenient types/IO, which is better than most people's first language :)
22:39:32 <ehird> Hey, we can't go praising people's first languages, what with how many we get on the wiki.
22:40:17 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:40:31 <ehird> pikhq: I'll buy you an internet pipe.
22:41:04 <pikhq> ehird: No point. I'll have real Internets in a couple weeks.
22:41:14 <ehird> I can't wait that long.
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23:43:43 <ehird> so let's try to not try for three lines after this
23:48:54 <ehird> ok let's try a little more than that
23:51:35 <ehird> i'm very pleased with this moderate amount of trying
23:52:51 <ehird> [X] Find out if we're marginally funny in any way
23:52:51 <ehird> [ ] Make a bot that lets us turn this into comics in a line
23:52:51 <ehird> [ ] Attain internet infamy
23:52:59 <ehird> it worked for jerkcity
23:58:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: as i said, it worked for jerkcity. among the various things that jerkcity lacks lies "jokes"
23:58:21 <mycroftiv> i dont know what jerkcity is, i need that part of the joke explained
23:58:44 <ehird> http://www.jerkcity.com/
23:58:57 <ehird> the only microsoft comic chat-created IRC comic that's been running since 1998.
23:59:02 <ehird> and that features dongs.
23:59:10 <ehird> (at least I hope there aren't others)
00:00:09 <mycroftiv> someone has been doing this for 11 years? well, the amount of effort involved does look pretty minimal, i suppose a whole years worth of this material is producible in about an hour
00:00:38 <ehird> you may have seen the guy who made it's blog (http://www.randsinrepose.com/) around the interwebs
00:00:42 <ehird> it has some fairly popular posts
00:01:01 <pikhq> You only really need to dump IRC into comic.
00:01:03 <ehird> but yeah, I'm fairly sure they just sit in an irc channel 24/7.
00:01:14 <ehird> pikhq: facial expressions too i think, although that could just be good synchronicity
00:01:41 <ehird> oh, and perhaps grouping lines into panels
00:01:48 * pikhq notes that Parsec makes most parsers seem trivial
00:01:49 <ehird> and making sure that characters are in panels even when not talking
00:01:57 <ehird> but it could just be automatic
00:02:28 <ehird> it's obviously very hit and miss though, http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3931.html made me laugh
00:02:41 <ehird> but quantity beats quality for sufficiently large values of quantity!
00:02:59 <pikhq> Meanwhile, I cannot does HTTP.
00:03:01 <mycroftiv> i laugh pretty easily, but i didnt laugh.
00:03:27 <ehird> well i basically never laugh but i smirked
00:03:27 <pikhq> "Isn't, like, dropping connections at random a *good* thing?"
00:03:51 <ehird> i think it's spigot's expression in the last panel that did it
00:04:20 -!- comex_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:08:22 <mycroftiv> does anyone know of any real organized effort to create an 'encyclopedia of the internet and internet history'? something that infuriated me about wikipedia a long time ago was the idea on the part of many editors that the internet was somehow low-status and unimportant and the culture of the internet itself was un-encyclopedic
00:09:37 <ehird> encyclopedia dramatica.
00:09:45 <ehird> and I'm absolutely serious. brb
00:09:47 <pikhq> Encyclopedia Dramatica.
00:09:53 <mycroftiv> ugg, i hate ED with extreme prejudice.
00:11:10 <mycroftiv> i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism.
00:21:29 -!- ehird has quit.
00:27:14 <Gracenotes> well, ED's primary goal to chronicle internet history, but with an extra obsession of internet drama
00:27:33 <Gracenotes> encouraging it, idolizing it and creating it
00:29:57 <mycroftiv> regardless, there's definitely a need for a more scholarly approach to the topic
00:31:06 <Gracenotes> "So, what is your hobby?" "I am an internet anthropologist." "lolololololol"
00:31:40 <pikhq> "Ah, the AOL lol repetition. I thought that everyone had forgotten that."
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00:37:33 <ehird> 16:11:10 <mycroftiv> i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism.
00:38:11 <pikhq> Uh. ... There was something to ruin about 4chan?
00:38:29 <ehird> nostalgia shines everything
00:38:53 <pikhq> I thought it had always been a desolate wasteland of memes of ill taste, weird porn, and the occasional Anonymous uprising.
00:39:51 <ehird> i read the start of the original 4chan thread once, was fun
00:40:08 <ehird> esp. when moot got all emo and said something along the lines of
00:40:18 <ehird> "you'll see in the news about the 11 year old that killed himself"
00:40:21 <ehird> "oh wait i'm 13 now"
00:40:25 <ehird> (seriously, he said that)
00:40:33 <ehird> then the forums exploded with "lol 13"
00:40:45 <ehird> original 4chan thread as in on Something Awful
00:40:58 <pikhq> ... moot was how old?
00:41:25 <ehird> in 2003 when 4chan started
00:41:41 <pikhq> That explains a lot.
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00:45:13 <ehird> try a non-gnu grep?
00:45:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, fgrep is a wrapper for grep on most GNU/Linux systems
00:45:18 <bsmntbombdood> grep should be doing boyer-moore on fixed strings no matter how you invoke it
00:45:22 <ehird> AnMaster: god you're an idiot
00:45:42 <ehird> <bsmntbombdood> grep, grep -i, fgrep
00:45:58 <ehird> wow, you're really fucking retarded, you're proving my point here
00:46:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: gnu grep is probably using a lameo exponential algo http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
00:46:10 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: right, but it obviously uses a different algorithm
00:46:22 <pikhq> Not even a symlink.
00:46:24 <ehird> CLEARLY bsmntbombdood WAS BENCHMARKING GREP -F VS FGREP
00:46:27 <pikhq> ls -l `which fgrep`
00:46:30 <ehird> even though he didn't mention grep -f!
00:46:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends on what GNU/Linux you use
00:46:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but slow always
00:46:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i know
00:46:58 <ehird> you didn't say anything stupid
00:47:02 <pikhq> With two different md5sums.
00:47:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed it seems so there. was checking on my arch system
00:47:11 <ehird> i was talking about grep -i time
00:47:27 * mycroftiv tries to grep the log to see what the grep everyone is grepping about
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00:51:16 <pikhq> I think I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill people there.
00:53:31 <ehird> i would be happy if the isp i'm eventually going to switch to has nice fibre optic
00:53:36 <ehird> so i can't complain about isps too much.
00:54:56 <pikhq> I would be happy if my ISP did not drop connections at random.
00:55:17 <ehird> pikhq: just forward everything through ssh
00:55:23 <pikhq> I need an execution squad.
00:55:30 <bsmntbombdood> 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.45.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=555 ms
00:55:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the internet actually gets something like half of the maximum possible latency
00:55:34 <ehird> w/ the speed of light
00:55:38 <ehird> but with a good connection
00:55:56 <ehird> http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html
00:56:22 <bsmntbombdood> one super low latency, medium bandwidth one for web, irc, ssh, etc
00:56:40 <ehird> there's no need to separate them
00:56:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also bittorrent is p2p
00:56:55 <ehird> so that latency will fuck you up
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00:58:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: actually, the best studies ive seen of modern day internet latency show that the effective latency at the application level tends to be a lot worse, because the problem is that at the application level, your total latency is determined by the *worst* latency of the group of packets involved in an application level operation
00:58:32 <ehird> I'm just saying that you can't make a CONNECTION massively less latencyful
00:58:47 <ehird> remember that page was last updated 2001
00:58:47 <mycroftiv> very true, speed of light is a lot more of a practical limit than people realize
00:58:49 <ehird> so we might be even closer
00:59:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: I realised that when I learned that in the worst case, the speed of light limits communications to mars at something like 22 minute latency
00:59:26 <ehird> best case like six minutes
00:59:34 <ehird> and i was just like... well fuck space colonisation
01:00:00 <pikhq_> ehird: Works quite a bit better with lunar colonisation.
01:00:05 <pikhq_> Couple seconds latency.
01:00:19 <GregorR-L> TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system :P
01:00:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: its funny you say that, i think reasoning along those lines is actually the best resolution to the fermi paradox of extraterrestrial life
01:00:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why are you lolling
01:00:22 <ehird> pikhq_: is it fast enough for video chat?
01:00:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm... not talking about TCP/IP.
01:00:33 <pikhq_> Not going to be playing any FPSes, but should be doing fine.
01:00:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm talking about the speed of light.
01:00:44 <ehird> Unless you have a magical protocol that goes faster than light.
01:00:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah, ditto
01:01:29 <ehird> if you mean "well just use slower things then"
01:01:30 <GregorR-L> TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system BECAUSE the speed of light is an issue. What I'm saying is we'll need a set of protocols that don't assume such low latency.
01:01:55 <ehird> space colonisation where each planet is an isolated bubble isn't an improvement
01:01:56 <pikhq_> GregorR-L: Go back a few decades, then.
01:02:20 <ehird> I wish I had hundreds of billions to blow on physicists so I could force them to figure out a loophole to the speed of light :P
01:02:21 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR-L: originally, the ttl field of a tcp packet was in seconds
01:02:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: back then we sent like, oh, 30 packets at a time :P
01:02:49 <pikhq_> bsmntbombdood: TCP can't do *half an hour* latency.
01:02:52 <mycroftiv> ehird: want to take a shot at making this a formally stated theory? "given the inherent relationship of intelligence to information processing and extrapolation from our current sample size of 1 (ourselves)..."
01:03:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm afraid we can't control its orbit
01:03:46 <ehird> 6 minutes is still bad
01:03:53 <ehird> 3 minutes is as bad as 22 minutes
01:04:05 <mycroftiv> "it seems likely that as technological civilizations advance, their needs for bandwidth and low latency connections mean that space travel is unlikely to be regarded as efficient or desirable, due to the inherent limitations of bandwidth and latency imposed on outward expansion"
01:04:06 <ehird> unless you have a lot of patience and email
01:04:11 <ehird> then 3 minutes is a bit less annoying
01:04:17 <bsmntbombdood> each planet can have a massive squid cache for web
01:04:58 <ehird> the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years
01:05:14 <bsmntbombdood> and sms seems to be quite popular these days, that will do fine with 3 minutes latency
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01:05:51 <ehird> unless you want to limit all communication to a short period.
01:06:05 <ehird> anyway, yes, we could do non-real time communication
01:06:10 <ehird> to repeat: the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years
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01:06:26 <GregorR-L> You act as if all realtime communication MUST be with people on Earth.
01:06:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: telephone
01:06:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: FUCK isolated bubbles
01:06:45 <ehird> that's not progress
01:06:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sms is not real time
01:07:09 <bsmntbombdood> my brother just got a cell phone...i think he's maybe spoken on it once
01:07:17 <GregorR-L> This conversation is too ehird-makes-amazingly-stupid-arguments for me to continue ... *vanish*
01:07:29 <ehird> jesus christ you're all fucking retarded.
01:07:37 <bsmntbombdood> what i'm saying is that high latency text communication is becoming popular
01:07:59 <ehird> yeah it's been popular for a while now gramps
01:08:02 <ehird> the kids in the hood call it email
01:08:17 <ehird> regardless, an isolated bubble of real-time communication isn't progress
01:08:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but SMS is also used as a surrogate real-time communication
01:08:31 <ehird> and you couldn't do that
01:09:12 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder what kind of bandwidth you can get from mars
01:09:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: we're talking about mars.
01:09:30 <pikhq_> bsmntbombdood: You're limited by the FCC.
01:09:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, this is theoretical limit
01:09:43 <pikhq_> Or, rather, their interplanetary equivalent.
01:09:45 <ehird> since we're not using freakin' light
01:09:58 <ehird> latency will be even worse
01:10:07 <ehird> and bandwidth will be the best of whatever can do those distances
01:11:22 <ehird> gigantic fucking microwaves
01:11:31 <ehird> + magic humans who can survive said microwaves
01:11:38 <ehird> well yeah technically
01:11:50 <ehird> but generally we don't say radio when we mean HOLY FUCK I'M MELLLLLLLLLLLLTIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
01:12:05 <ehird> like, I don't point to my microwave and go
01:12:06 <ehird> this is my radio oven
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01:12:32 <mycroftiv> what the hell are we arguing about specifically?
01:12:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: bunnies
01:12:39 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: microwave is commonly used for communication
01:12:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm talking _powerful_ microwaves
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01:13:14 <bsmntbombdood> they're only powerful where you send them...with high gain directional antennas
01:13:25 <mycroftiv> can someone please express the topic of debate in the form of a question to answer, or a statement of fact to agree/dispute?
01:13:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: read yourself
01:13:48 <mycroftiv> ive been here and reading the whole time, and ive lost the thread
01:13:54 <ehird> internet with mars.
01:14:12 <mycroftiv> ok, but those are nouns. you cant disagree about nouns.
01:14:19 <ehird> also humans, melting humans
01:14:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: in this channel, we simply discuss/argue about things.
01:15:20 <mycroftiv> is the basic topic "will martian colonists have acceptable internet access?"
01:15:48 <mycroftiv> if the topic is "is earth-mars communication possible" the answer is obviously yes.
01:15:51 <bsmntbombdood> http://selenianboondocks.com/2006/03/the-bandwidth-may-be-improving-but-the-latency-is-still-going-to-suck/
01:16:23 <mycroftiv> obviously their local communications are no problem
01:16:32 <ehird> the issue is making it not an isolated bubble
01:16:36 <ehird> due to the speed of light, this is impossible.
01:16:47 <pikhq__> Except for exotic physics.
01:16:51 <ehird> yeah, but there aren't any humans elsewhere.
01:17:01 <ehird> so we're not isolated relative to humans.
01:18:17 <mycroftiv> i guess i think the issues in re: mars are probably not insurmountable, but that the issues for extrasolar travel (the really interesting question imo) maybe *are*
01:18:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:18:36 <ehird> if bittorrent never made any new connections, and you didn't have to share chunks, sure
01:18:53 <ehird> but (a) it does and (b) they're gonna be sitting on their asses for 20 minutes waiting for your bytes to come through
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01:44:47 <ehird> Ha! David S. Touretsky appeared on the interwebs.
01:54:28 <ehird> okay that's not actually hah but.
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02:36:19 <pikhq> Hath it stabilised?
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03:07:41 <augur> im baking my shallot tart tatin! :D
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04:50:36 <pikhq> 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff.
04:50:55 <pikhq> ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag.
04:51:17 <pikhq> Not being dicks == impressive.
04:52:00 <pikhq> "So you got shit for free. Guess what? It's actually free." :)
04:54:04 <bsmntbombdood> i bet shittons of people are going to start buying stuff now
05:05:58 <augur> i wish i had known! D:
05:09:28 <lament> me too.. i always wanted that watch that's like $600
05:13:21 <augur> i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so
05:13:26 <augur> its my geeky duty!
05:13:39 <pikhq> I've gotten stuff from there for Christmas.
05:24:08 <lament> ohhhhhhh they don't sell the slide rule watch anymore
05:24:25 <lament> but they still have http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/a890/
05:27:05 <lament> i'd buy it if it wasn't $600
05:27:35 <Pthing> also why 35 degrees north
05:28:34 <Pthing> is there even a major american city at that latitude
05:28:46 <lament> 35 degrees north is where japan is
05:29:26 <lament> right, but that's not why the watch uses 35
05:29:52 <puzzlet> that's so northern hemisphere-centric
05:29:52 <lament> anyway it's not that big of a difference
05:29:58 <Pthing> practically the fucking
05:30:04 <Pthing> centre of gravity of all the big japanese cities
05:30:42 <Pthing> osaka and tokyo and split the difference
05:30:45 <lament> it should work anywhere in japan, and, for that matter, anywhere in the states (except alaska)
05:31:01 <Pthing> hokkaido goes up to the 40s!
05:31:25 <Pthing> and the islands down to 24ish
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05:32:28 <augur> http://filthyphil.tumblr.com/post/154985575/dont-act-like-youve-never-seen-a-two-legged-cat
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07:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ?
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08:12:44 <oerjan> hey, xkcd is writing about me, or something.
08:16:10 <oerjan> yay, girl genius won a hugo
08:17:25 <lament> anyone can recommend a piece of music, preferrably for organ, that fits in three octaves?
08:20:52 <mycroftiv> lament: your best bet is small bach keyboard works - check out the inventions and sinfonias
08:21:32 <mycroftiv> i can check some of my sheet music right now i guess to see if thats accurate, im pretty sure that range isnt too far off
08:22:44 <lament> some of them ought to work
08:24:21 <mycroftiv> 4 octaves would be a lot more comfortable, but i think a fair number of small pieces fit into 3, or can do so with only trivial transposition of an occasional bass note up or something
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08:40:30 <lament> but i want something more :)
08:45:50 <AnMaster> lament, you want a small keyboard? Not enough space for a full length one?
08:46:02 <AnMaster> (as I can't find anything relevant in scrollback)
08:46:34 <lament> my macbook already has a keyboard
08:46:49 <AnMaster> lament, I meant, musical keyboard
08:47:11 <AnMaster> as in, electrical piano with MIDI over USB or such
08:47:45 <lament> here, shitty playing, but proof of concept that it can be done: http://filebin.ca/dmfhkb/bachprelude.mp3
08:47:55 <lament> i'm playing that on my keyboard
08:48:27 <AnMaster> lament, *playing on macbook keyboard*?
08:48:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music
08:50:17 <lament> pretty sure it was me :)
09:03:06 <oklopol> he thought no one would remember and ripped off my idea
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09:15:36 <lament> the chromatone is still fucking sexy
09:15:42 <lament> http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/8/chromatone-t312.jpg
09:15:50 <lament> i'm sure i'll end up buying one eventually
09:17:10 <lament> unfortunately it uses javko
09:18:13 <lament> and i have a b-system accordion
09:20:00 <AnMaster> it is like an electrical accordion?
09:20:20 <lament> sort of, but different layout
09:20:46 <AnMaster> I know next to nothing about playing accordion
09:20:56 <mycroftiv> even if you know piano its a bit tricky
09:21:10 <AnMaster> I do play piano. (not professionally, just for fun)
09:21:12 <mycroftiv> the button/chording system adds a whole new element
09:21:43 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, so for someone who can manage a bit on piano and on acoustic guitar: How does that thing work?
09:22:02 <mycroftiv> accordion? well, its basically a keyboard that you play the melody on, then buttons that set the accompanying chords
09:22:05 <lament> you press the keys, and it makes sounds
09:22:35 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, setting chords? you don't play chords the "normal" way?
09:22:56 <AnMaster> so it's like you have a fixed set of possible chords?
09:23:03 <lament> yes, which is retarded
09:23:08 <lament> not all accordions are like that, though
09:23:21 <lament> if i ever get an accordion, it would need to have the same layout on both sides
09:23:28 <AnMaster> lament, well... what about classical acoustic accordion.
09:23:30 <lament> such accordions exist too
09:23:38 <AnMaster> the thing used for folk music and such
09:23:51 <lament> but usually, yeah, you have a set of chords
09:24:02 <AnMaster> lament, how extensive is that set?
09:24:17 <lament> e.g. for each key, you have a major chord, a minor chord, an alternative root for the major chord, a major seventh, a diminished chord
09:24:34 <lament> pretty useless if you want to play classical on it
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09:53:44 <oklokol> lament: not all accordions are like that, though <<< most ones i've seen have both melodic and chord bass options
09:54:56 <oklokol> same layout on both sides? cool, i might even consider playing one
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09:55:28 <lament> they're ridiculously expensive though
09:55:44 <lament> the coolest layout seems to be the russian one
09:55:56 <oklokol> all the accordions i've seen have cost a ridiculous amount anyway
09:56:05 <lament> it works like a piano - higher notes are downward on the right hand and upward on the left
09:56:30 <lament> so it's as if the two keyboards were two halves of the same keyboard
09:56:44 <oklokol> well, usually i'm against all that isn't symmetric, but that would already be better than piano, so i don't mind
09:57:15 <lament> other accordions have the keyboard mirrored, so higher notes are downward on both hands
09:57:44 <lament> hard to say wihch is better
09:57:44 <oklokol> right, i'd probably prefer that
09:57:49 <mycroftiv> oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music!
09:57:56 <oklokol> also i don't know about "better", i'm all about purity
09:58:02 <lament> actually yeah, this one is probably better
09:58:11 <oklokol> mycroftiv: the tritone is my favorite interval
09:58:20 <lament> since the scale patterns are the same with both hands
09:58:57 <oklokol> that's somewhat annoying in piano, but it makes up for it because there's not explicit split
09:59:08 <oklokol> and also in that i've already learned the patterns
10:00:50 <lament> shit, if i get a second laptop
10:00:55 <lament> i could do that with two laptops
10:01:36 <oklokol> although i already hate all keyboards for being completel antisymmetric anyway
10:02:06 <mycroftiv> oklokol: a lot of that asymmetry is inherent in how we build music out of mathematical ratios
10:02:30 <oklokol> by which i mean the shifts to the right on different rows are completely random
10:02:41 <oklokol> mycroftiv: do you mean the split of the octave, or what exactly?
10:03:13 <mycroftiv> well, there are a lot of elements, this is my particular field of professional expertise, so what level of detail do you want in the answer?
10:03:34 <mycroftiv> maybe you should express what you mean by 'antisymmetric' in terms of keyboards, i dont follow what you mean yet maybe
10:03:37 <lament> oklokol: they're close enough on my macbook that it doesn't botehr me
10:03:54 <mycroftiv> oh, do you mean keyboards, not keyboards?
10:04:03 <lament> oklokol: think of it like the different sizes of frets on the guitar :)
10:04:04 <mycroftiv> computer keyboards, not piano keyboards?
10:04:14 <oklokol> mycroftiv: i simply mean the difference in shift between the two lower columns is different than it is on the first two
10:04:45 <oklokol> i don't like the piano keyboard either, though.
10:04:45 <lament> i need a good way to control volume
10:04:47 <mycroftiv> i thought you disliked the asymmetery of the musical keyboard
10:04:53 <oklokol> because i'm not very fond of the major scale
10:05:17 <mycroftiv> so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc?
10:05:30 <lament> mycroftiv: i dislike the asymmetry of the musical keyboard. Accordians are much nicer.
10:05:32 <mycroftiv> (some people do, but its very rare)
10:05:33 <oklokol> never heard of any of those, but yes, i prefer atonal music
10:05:38 <fizzie> lament: Use the Power Glove to control the volume. It's so BAD.
10:05:44 <oklokol> and i don't know what serial music is
10:05:50 <lament> mycroftiv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo
10:05:54 <lament> mycroftiv: that's me playing
10:05:54 <AnMaster> hm the solution is obviously thermins (spelling?)
10:06:02 <mycroftiv> oklokol: its music composed on the idea of treating each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale 'symmetrically'
10:06:21 <oklokol> right, i guess i imply that when i say atonal.
10:06:36 <oklokol> well, okay, no i don't know if i like atonal music
10:06:37 <mycroftiv> oklokol: not all atonal music is 'serial' - the serial school is a particular method
10:06:44 <AnMaster> lament, they sound better too. So yes
10:06:56 <mycroftiv> lament: i dont have flash enabled on this computer so ill have to check that link later
10:07:40 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, use vlc or such + the command line program youtube-dl
10:07:41 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: its a pop cultural reference to a very bad movie about video games
10:07:47 <lament> the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse
10:07:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: The actual glove is an old (1989) accessory for the NES console.
10:07:59 <oklokol> anyway i need to go read random crap now ->
10:08:13 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, ah. Well for reference I suck at popular culture references
10:08:28 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: me too, i get them all second hand, ive never seen the movie, but i know the line
10:08:47 <fizzie> The Wikipedia power glove page has the requisite "in popular culture" section.
10:08:56 <AnMaster> <lament> the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse <-- hrrm
10:08:59 <mycroftiv> every pop culture reference i know, i know because ive learned it from the internet referencing it, its been like this since the 80s
10:09:01 <fizzie> And I haven't seen it either, I just know it by osmosis.
10:09:19 <fizzie> A friend here was considering getting some foot pedals for Emacs.
10:09:46 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can use my rudder pedals for something like that
10:09:54 <mycroftiv> sounds like a half measure, how about a full pipe organ setup for emacs?
10:10:03 <mycroftiv> you could play 'stallman's 3rd sonata for emacs' on it
10:10:13 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I take it you dislike emacs?
10:10:29 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: ive never even been able to learn enough of it to dislike it
10:10:41 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, for reference I'm IRCing from inside emacs
10:11:06 <fizzie> I tried out ERC, but it didn't really stick.
10:11:11 <AnMaster> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC
10:11:19 <mycroftiv> im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs
10:11:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed. There is some other irc client for emacs too
10:11:56 <fizzie> I think I'll keep swapping clients every few months or so; variety is good for... well, it must be good for *something*!
10:11:59 <AnMaster> odd thing is, I find zsh bloated, so I use bash
10:12:00 <mycroftiv> though perhaps if you switch to emacs-as-os mode, then emacs becomes a nice flexible lightweight environment with nice lightweight tools
10:12:15 <AnMaster> of course bash could *also* be considered bloated. compared to simpler shells at least
10:12:28 <mycroftiv> im a plan9 devotee, so we think everything everyone uses is bloated
10:13:00 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, you have the power of lisp always. Admittedly this is *elisp*. So dynamic scoping. But better than vimscript definitely.
10:13:29 <mycroftiv> yes, i understand that the emacs paradigm of being a full operating environment with full reflexivity because of lisp is actually awesome, once you know what the hell you are doing
10:13:52 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I can customise my irc client a lot. Just write a hook in elisp
10:14:09 <AnMaster> there are lots of places that you can hook into. Basically everything.
10:14:24 <mycroftiv> yup, i love the idea being able to modify your environment in real time as you work in it
10:14:53 <AnMaster> (now I'm quite happy with the defaults/pre-made available options in most cases for ERC, but in a few places I hooked in my own code)
10:15:38 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway, while lisp is awesome, elisp isn't
10:16:23 <AnMaster> mostly due to the dynamic scoping. But even apart from that it is quite sucky compared to scheme (I don't know common lisp, so can't compare with that)
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13:08:17 <ehird> MAXIMISE RADICALNESS IN YOUR EVERY ACTION!
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:50:36 <pikhq> 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff.
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:50:55 <pikhq> ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag.
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:51:17 <pikhq> Not being dicks == impressive.
13:09:31 <ehird> i would buy thinkgeek stuff, but the last time I got something from there the import tax was like £70
13:11:13 <ehird> 23:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ?
13:11:16 <ehird> I wasn't even alive then
13:11:22 <ehird> i was one year old, rather
13:12:34 <ehird> lament: how do you think using the fancy shmancy multi touch trackpad on the new macbook pros would go for musak
13:13:04 <ehird> 00:48:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music
13:13:05 <ehird> yeah lament posted a video
13:13:30 <lament> ehird: i dunno, how would you use it?
13:13:55 <ehird> would prolly work best in combination
13:13:56 <lament> especially if your hands are busy playing stuff
13:14:09 <ehird> you could do, like, modulation with it
13:14:19 <ehird> though that's fairly useless and not multitouchy
13:15:35 <lament> touchpad could work pretty well as a volume control, except that the hands are already occupied
13:16:06 <lament> so the only solution i see is some kind of pedal (possibly the mouse)
13:16:18 <fizzie> Your nose is also free.
13:16:55 <fizzie> "Free lament's nose, only today on #esoteric! Terms and restrictions may apply. Order valid only while supplies last."
13:18:14 <ehird> lament: eh, keyboards (musical kind) have sliders and shit next to the keys
13:19:37 <lament> i'm not a keyboardist so i don't know how they work or what they're useful for
13:20:03 <lament> i've seen the pitch bender thing but can't imagine a use for it
13:20:40 <lament> fizzie: that would look absolutely fucking brilliant
13:21:34 <mycroftiv> pitch bending is very useful if you are trying to imitate the sounds of non keyboard instruments
13:21:59 <mycroftiv> for instance, even a well sampled synth brass instrument is going to sound quite 'lifeless' if the samples are 'straight on' pitch unless you bend into them a bit
13:22:26 <mycroftiv> for something like playing pseudo-electric guitar on a digital keyboard, the pitch bending and other 'expression' controls are invaluable
13:22:36 <fizzie> I think some sort of use-your-tongue-like-a-joystic things also exist.
13:22:53 <mycroftiv> i think its not 'tongue as a joystick' its breath control if im thinking of the same things...
13:23:05 <mycroftiv> but i havent kept up with all the toys so maybe there is a tongue joystick
13:23:08 <ehird> 01:57:49 <mycroftiv> oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music!
13:23:08 <ehird> no, that's the Boîte Diabolique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s
13:23:30 <fizzie> Quick Googling only found http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26338543/
13:23:38 <fizzie> Maybe not as a product yet, but still.
13:23:42 <lament> fizzie: i'm imagining some kind of pedal contraption with a wooden frame for the mouse, s.t. when you press on the pedal, the mouse moves
13:23:42 <ehird> also, the modulation is useful for pretending you have a theremin.
13:24:30 <ehird> lament: uhh just hook the pedal up to the computer
13:24:35 <mycroftiv> hmm, there are things very much like the boite diabolique that are quite real, microtonal keyboards have been around for hundreds of years actually
13:24:53 <lament> ehird: that requires a pedal
13:25:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: yes, ear-bleeding notes of fucked up colours. :P
13:25:13 <ehird> lament: mehhhhhhhh
13:25:22 <ehird> lament: i'm more interested in using things directly rather than hacking them up
13:25:46 <lament> that requires buying such a pedal, if it even exists
13:25:59 <ehird> lament: of course it exists, but
13:26:02 <ehird> who gives a shit about pedals
13:26:04 <ehird> they're conventional and boring.
13:27:09 <lament> yes, using the tongue would be much better
13:27:25 <lament> but of course the perfect solution would be a touch-sensitive computer keyboard
13:27:30 <ehird> you just don't appreciate the utilisation of gizmos and gadgets
13:27:32 <ehird> also, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no
13:27:52 <ehird> anyway the perfect solution would be total virtual reality of course.
13:28:09 <lament> the perfect solution would be to become a lesbian.
13:28:23 <ehird> sounds about right.
13:32:01 <oklokol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s <<< what the absolute fuck is this
13:32:46 <ehird> it's an excellent educational program
13:33:13 <oklokol> is it meant to be like some kinda bad surreal humor
13:33:36 <ehird> well of course you're not going to like it just jumping in like that, also the music episode isn't the best.
13:33:52 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 is prolly a better start.
13:34:14 <oklokol> so are you saying it is supposed to be educational? i'm just asking what the point is
13:34:36 <ehird> Yes, oklokol. It is really trying to teach people about the twelve forbidden notes on every piano...
13:35:59 <oklokol> i'll assume it is, because i can't come up with another possibility
13:36:21 <ehird> the boite diabolique is just filler in between segments
13:36:35 <fizzie> I had heard of "edutainment" and "infotainment", but "edugamement" was a new one.
13:36:59 <ehird> oklokol: srsly, just watch the maths episode, it's good :P
13:37:47 <oklokol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 <<< okay, this is humor, even rather funny
13:37:53 <oklokol> err and yeah that's the math
13:44:38 <ehird> oklokol: what does "err and yeah that's the math" mean :P
13:45:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, what would those words mean
13:45:40 <oklokol> that it was exactly the maths episode you were talking about
13:45:47 <oklokol> how was that not terribly clear!
13:45:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, containment of education/info for the first wo?
13:46:10 <AnMaster> the last one I have no clue about
13:46:53 <fizzie> Entertainment, not containment.
13:46:55 <oklokol> i think i have my mind wrapped around the music episode too
13:47:01 <fizzie> "Edutainment (also educational entertainment or entertainment-education) is a form of entertainment designed to educate as well as to amuse."
13:47:29 <oklokol> fizzie: that sounds absolutely horrible
13:47:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean like really boring programs by Utbildningsradion?
13:47:50 <fizzie> I think it generally is quite horrible, yes.
13:47:54 <AnMaster> (and no clue what is the equivalent in UK or US)
13:48:04 <oklokol> can i see an example of it now, please
13:48:32 <fizzie> Also "educational games" could be lumped under edutainment, but apparently there is also a (fortunately not much used) new term "edugamement" for that.
13:50:23 <ehird> [[Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward.
13:50:24 <ehird> However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009.
13:50:24 <ehird> Your tweets with tr.im URLs in them will not be affected.]]
13:50:35 <ehird> take that, people who say "naw, a URL shortening service would NEVER disappear!"
13:51:20 <mycroftiv> im eager to find those people and say 'i told you so' also, apart from the fact that i never met any of them, and i never heard of tr.im before today
13:51:34 <ehird> well then you are not the target market of my statement!
13:51:46 <oklokol> what's the context of this
13:52:47 <ehird> zoooooooooooooooooooooom
13:52:58 <oklokol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
13:53:48 <ehird> :DDDDDDDDDD YAY FLYING
13:53:52 <fizzie> "There is no way for us to monetize URL shortening -- users won't pay for it --" Really!
13:54:04 -!- ehird has set topic: :DDDDDDDDDDD FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY*!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:54:10 -!- ehird has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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13:54:20 <mycroftiv> what? there are free url shortening services? man im gonna find that guy ive been paying $5 to every week and kick his ass
13:56:01 <nooga> is there a tool that analyzes C++ code to visualize what classes are needed for other classes to function etc?
13:56:07 <mycroftiv> man, i spend all my time on the internet, but i still live in a different world - i read stuff like "twitter's ecosystem has lots of developers" and i dont even have the vaguest clue what 'developing for twitter' even means
13:56:44 <oklokol> i only have a vague idea what twitter is
13:56:54 <mycroftiv> i think its a service popular with twits
13:57:16 <asiekierka> i'm trying to get either a good ZX Spectrum assembler for the PC
13:57:16 <mycroftiv> that is my semantic assumption, at least
13:58:44 <oklokol> i have no idea what those contain, i'll just stick with the assumption you want to change the file extension
13:59:12 <nooga> http://www.computerbrains.com/tapformat.html
13:59:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm going to try and explain twitter and wtf "programming for twitter" means in one (1) irc line, because i'm fucking insane and hate myself
14:00:17 <mycroftiv> i know twitter is some kind of web platform for push/pull of tiny text segments
14:00:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, the .tap format's simple because it's pretty much just an image of the tape contents; it's not that trivial to get a binary on it so that the target system can load it from the tape.
14:01:40 <nooga> fizzie: but if you have appropriate binary
14:02:02 <fizzie> Yes, but you still have to find out how the binary is stored on the tape.
14:02:26 <fizzie> The "data" in that format is just timings for pulses, not binary data.
14:02:52 <fizzie> Anyway, I would have to guess there are several existing programs to do it. (I last used one some seven years ago and don't remember the name.)
14:07:45 <fizzie> I guess it was that WAV-PRG one, though I have no idea how speccy-friendly it is.
14:14:51 <fizzie> I'm guessing ehird's task of explaining what Twitter is made him implode.
14:15:15 <ehird> I managed to do it in five IRC lines but just /msg'd it to mycroftiv since, as nobody cares, I decided to bore as few people as possible
14:15:30 <fizzie> Now do it in one Tweet.
14:15:41 <fizzie> That's, what, 140 characters?
14:15:49 <ehird> i'll try, with the help of OS X's summariser
14:16:00 <ehird> but every piece of info in those 5 tweets is required to understand why
14:16:01 <ehird> as opposed to what
14:17:26 * ehird condenses to three paras
14:19:42 <fizzie> Oh, a "why" explanation for twoodler would be nice. That's something I've been asked, and never been able to answer.
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14:21:20 <ehird> I think I can get it down to two IRC messages: what-with-a-bit-of-why, and why
14:21:23 <ehird> a tweet's pushing it a bit
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14:21:49 <fizzie> Two IRC messages is not too shabby either.
14:27:48 <ehird> almost got it in two IRC messages
14:29:12 <ehird> fizzie: what's the max irc message limit again?
14:30:50 <fizzie> 512 bytes, but two are taken by the potential \r\n at the end, and then it depends on how long the command is; on-channel "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" eats, what, 19 bytes or so.
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14:32:42 <ehird> fizzie: and now, I will attempt to explain what Twitter is and why it is in two IRC lines.
14:32:45 <ehird> You see all tweets from people you follow. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: people carry out conversations through it, etc. Basically, it does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). Also, mention people in your tweet and it shows on one of their tabs, even
14:32:46 <ehird> Importantly, it's pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; though you get messages as they're posted and can reply then, it can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically in this way (unlike IRC in the usage of it (not technically), of course; shares facets though). One thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics proceeded by #) - not channels because messages don't have continuity; just groupings of messages about the same thing. By searching, you can scan th
14:33:05 <ehird> fizzie: don't bother to read that
14:33:09 <ehird> fizzie: you didn't account for the name
14:33:14 <ehird> the :ehird@blahblahshit
14:33:21 * ehird wittles it down further
14:34:18 <fizzie> Oh, right. Since it's not in the command, it's just in the messages forwarded by the server, which of course have the same length limit too.
14:35:17 <ehird> fizzie: let's try this again
14:35:20 <ehird> Tweets are sent out to followers. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: conversations through it, etc. It does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?").
14:35:20 <ehird> Importantly, pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; you get messages as they're posted and can reply then; can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically here (unlike in the usage of it (not technically) too, ofc; shares facets though). Thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics after #) - not channels, messages don't have continuity; groupings of messages about the same thing.
14:40:05 <ehird> fizzie: that's sort of like saying "congratulations on your brain enema".
14:40:25 <ehird> one thing short form writing is not for is long explanations :P
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15:00:30 <ehird> English is like magic!
15:02:11 <AnMaster> server sends somewhat like this to other clients:
15:02:18 <AnMaster> :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah
15:02:35 <AnMaster> and iirc the length limit of 512 applies *from server* too
15:02:38 <ehird> Do you deliberately ignore lines that say what you want to say?
15:03:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just doing log reading like you do. since obviously you think this is a good idea. I would assume you want the same applied to yourself
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15:04:13 <ehird> you do try awfully hard to be obnoxious, don't you
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15:05:23 <ehird> http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/toshiba-tg01 // the 1GHz phones are here!
15:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried to be kind. Maybe assuming that you like others doing what you do yourself was wrong.
15:06:20 <AnMaster> golden rule and all that. obsolete clearly :P
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15:17:44 <fizzie> There's a rumour that Motorola's building two keyboardy Android phones; the second one ("Sholes") might have a 854x480 display (so 266 DPI) and built on the TI OMAP3430; that's a 600 MHz ARM + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430 MHz TI C64x DSP core.
15:18:54 <fizzie> It's no gigahertz, but still. Google's been promising that later releases of that "NDK" native-code development kit will allow linking with the OpenGL ES 2.0 and audio libraries. Currently I thinki it's just libc+libm and all "interesting" parts have to be done with their JVM code.
15:19:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, how large is the screen then
15:19:34 <fizzie> "45.72 mm by 81.34 mm".
15:19:43 <fizzie> None of this is very confirmed information.
15:20:12 <AnMaster> *waits for dual core processors in phones*
15:21:02 <fizzie> The other Motorola thing, "Morrison", is (maybe) going to be some sort of lower-end device, with a 480x320 screen and the "default" 528 MHz ARM that's in the Hero and G1 and whatnot.
15:21:47 <fizzie> Well, there's already three cores if you count the CPU, GPU and DSP. (I doubt the DSP is very application-accessible, though, and I don't know how much OpenGL ES 2.0 does programmabilities in shaders and such.)
15:22:29 <AnMaster> as in, what brand makes them and such
15:22:35 <AnMaster> never heard of that gpu product before
15:22:50 <fizzie> Well, PowerVR makes them. It's very common for mobile 3D.
15:23:06 <fizzie> Apparently a "division of Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic)".
15:23:21 <fizzie> "in use in many high-end cellphones including the Apple iPhone, Nokia N95, Sony Ericsson P1, and Motorola RIZR Z8" -- quite a list.
15:24:54 <fizzie> Though the 535 used in the iPhone 3GS does double as many (28 vs. 14) millions of polygons per second as the 530 model.
15:25:00 <ehird> so I still haven't finished logreading yet!
15:25:01 <ehird> 02:05:17 <mycroftiv> so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc?
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15:25:06 <ehird> i think i've heard some schonberg
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15:25:13 <ehird> and i seem to recall it was a lot better than any other classical i've heard.
15:26:49 <AnMaster> Schönberg had different "periods" in his composing, to begin with he wasn't atonal. iirc
15:27:19 <AnMaster> I'm no expert on Schönberg though
15:28:28 <ehird> after a brief googling i conclude that indeed it is awesome
15:29:09 <ehird> also the power glove was ALMOST awesome
15:29:25 <ehird> but the buttons should have been where you'd make a fist
15:29:28 <ehird> so you can use one hand
15:30:27 <ehird> 02:11:19 <mycroftiv> im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs
15:30:27 <ehird> i think i use proprietary software just to annoy stallmanites
15:31:09 <ehird> wrt the emacs as environment stuff, emacs is a bad lisp os
15:31:20 <ehird> that stupidly focuses on one widget, the text editor
15:36:13 <pikhq> ... Emacs, minimalist?
15:36:31 <pikhq> It's a freaking Lisp OS.
15:37:40 <fizzie> more minimalistic than Emacs does not imply much minimalism.
15:38:04 <pikhq> Oh, "more minimalistic than emacs".
15:38:07 <pikhq> I misread that sentence.
15:38:21 <pikhq> "More minimialistic, like Emacs."
15:40:19 <pikhq> Hahahah. "Tea Party" member starts a brawl in a town hall during a health debate, gets injured. He's now asking for donations, since he doesn't have insurance.
15:45:09 <ehird> I'll donate minus dollars.
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15:46:45 <pikhq> I'll donate exactly one socialist dollar.
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15:48:07 <ehird> btw, http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/
15:48:20 <ehird> e.g. selections are a submenu in the right click
15:48:28 <ehird> there aren't any global menus, just right clicking
15:48:36 <ehird> and the menus have text input and other things
15:48:42 <ehird> sort of an interface unto themselves
15:49:25 <ehird> and ofc it was the first OS with text antialiasing... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/RISCOS_4_scr.png
15:49:43 <ehird> even subpixel, says wikipedia
15:50:04 <ehird> pretty awesome when you consider that they also invented ARM
15:51:01 <olegfink> the ui looks pretty wimpy to me.
15:51:04 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang that resembles an alien language
15:51:10 <ehird> olegfink: "wimpy"?
15:51:18 <olegfink> it is no doubt a good WIMP, but still a wimp
15:51:18 <ehird> what an awful way to classify a gui
15:51:28 <ehird> "it looks, easy, and, and, usable and wimpy"
15:51:36 <ehird> (yeah yeah i get it)
15:51:54 <olegfink> ehird: as in tuomo's definition, windows, icons, menus and pointer
15:52:04 <ehird> olegfink: anyway it was released in 1988
15:52:14 <ehird> olegfink: but there are interesting details
15:52:18 <ehird> some of which I mentioned
15:52:20 <asiekierka> http://github.com/asiekierka/2D-Sandbox/tree/master - something i've been making
15:52:20 <ehird> that no other OS has afaik
15:52:55 <ehird> (asiekierka figured out how to use git?)
15:53:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE (and wimpy ui's) *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:07 <ehird> I hereby ban asiekierka from modifying the topic.
15:54:16 -!- ehird has set topic: flaught http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:34 <olegfink> ehird: indeed, but too small differences and too late. oberon ui has more chances.
15:54:43 * pikhq changes asiekierka's topic to: main = getArgs >>= parseFromFile toplevel . head >>= either print print
15:54:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric is now unofficially #ehirdland | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:55:04 <ehird> stop, it, asiekierka
15:55:07 <ehird> olegfink: did I say it's the best UI ever?
15:55:13 <ehird> i just said that it has some interesting aspects
15:55:20 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:55:40 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:11 <olegfink> yeah, by the way, does 'fs' in 'hostfs' stand for filesystem?
15:56:25 <olegfink> why not set +t on this channel?
15:56:35 <ehird> olegfink: (a) prolly (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics
15:56:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:46 <ehird> asiekierka: apart from fizzie and lament
15:56:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:49 <ehird> who have both talked a lot today
15:57:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:57:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Stop being dumb.
15:57:33 <ehird> i wish you would either go away or stop changing the topic like that
15:57:37 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:00:00 <ehird> olegfink: i thought you were disappearing for a month anyway or something
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16:00:57 <olegfink> ehird, my weekends aren't that long
16:01:51 <olegfink> but I can just shut up and pretend I'm still on vacation.
16:03:05 <olegfink> by the way, speaking of guis, k3 gui is one of the best I've seen
16:03:18 <olegfink> it's purely data-driven and reactive
16:03:46 <olegfink> iirc clean has something of the sort, haskell and ocaml still have quite some problems with frp implementations
16:03:57 <ehird> k3 gui gooling helps not, plz linky
16:03:58 <olegfink> at least I haven't seen anything working
16:04:12 <ehird> my os' ui is hilariously undecided
16:04:36 <ehird> but i haven't even considered FRP, that's how much of a conservative curmudgeon I am!
16:05:35 <olegfink> hmm, the reference is only available as a pdf
16:06:03 <ehird> my OS is unannoying enough to handle PDFs smoothly
16:06:53 <pikhq> ehird: Really, it's only Windows that doesn't...
16:07:02 <pikhq> Adobe's PDF reader. *shudder*
16:07:13 <ehird> linux doesn't let you view a pdf as smoothly as if it was just an html page does it?
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16:07:26 <ehird> but Windows is indeed the worst
16:07:43 <olegfink> some examples with screenies: http://nsl.com/papers/calculator.htm
16:07:49 <olegfink> http://nsl.com/papers/instant.htm
16:08:17 <ehird> i thought it was some fun obscure os called K3 or sth
16:08:26 <ehird> but yeah, I thought you mean the UIs themselves were FR somehow
16:08:38 <ehird> k3's ui code looks very nice, resulting uis are still wimp though
16:08:59 <olegfink> because, eh, they are designed to map to x11/winapi?
16:09:04 <ehird> olegfink: well, yeah
16:09:07 <ehird> i just mean the paradigm
16:09:17 <ehird> just saying i misinterpreted it
16:09:25 <ehird> olegfink: but k doesn't use native windows widgets
16:09:28 <Deewiant> Great, then tell me whether/why (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((m (x ((((#(y))))) ...)) '(y ...)))) is valid with (m (x)) being the empty list
16:09:45 <ehird> Deewiant: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html
16:09:54 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3
16:10:01 <ehird> ↑ macro definition
16:10:29 <olegfink> ehird: don't know enough about winapi, but probably. any way, doing an oberon-like thing in this style is even simpler, considering the implementation of acme.
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16:10:44 <ehird> acme? i only know it as the wonderful plan 9 editor
16:10:47 <olegfink> but I /definitely/ want such a UI!
16:10:57 <ehird> is that oberon-style?
16:11:07 <ehird> acme's pretty damn awesome, needs a bit more discoverability though
16:11:14 <ehird> you basically have to know how to do the transformation you want
16:11:17 <olegfink> quite, oberon also did graphics though.
16:11:52 <Deewiant> ehird: I've read it through about 20 times
16:12:05 <ehird> Deewiant: meditate a bit, try in a few other implementations
16:12:15 <olegfink> well, that means knowing sam (or acme's builtin text processing language which is the same) and unix/plan9 tools
16:12:18 <asiekierka> Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet?
16:12:31 <ehird> acme is nice if you know it
16:12:33 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm not interested in the result, I'm interested in whether the spec says it or not :-P
16:12:50 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, and if implementations disagree you need to check the spec more closely
16:12:54 <Deewiant> To me it seems as though it only says "[the pattern variables] are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated."
16:12:56 <ehird> but if they agree it's likely they're right
16:13:20 <ehird> Deewiant: try SISC
16:13:29 <ehird> Deewiant: it passes the extremely perverted R5RS edgecase tests, so
16:13:32 <Deewiant> Which, to me, seems like "it's obvious so we won't go into the details" or "we don't give a shit about the details" and I'm not sure which one they mean
16:14:04 <olegfink> anyway, limiting the graphical options of a widget toolkit is certainly worth having the ability to code the ui in K3 style
16:14:26 <asiekierka> Again: Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet?
16:14:39 <ehird> olegfink: i don't believe limitation of such things is ever neccessary
16:14:49 <ehird> asiekierka: we're not answering your question because it's tedious and you ask it all the time
16:16:08 <olegfink> ehird: well, it's not that easy to map some more obscure gui elements to the data
16:16:18 <ehird> then the paradigm is limited
16:16:33 <ehird> oklokol's os/ui ideas seem to strike a nice balance, vague as they are
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16:16:40 <ehird> and they map quite a bit to mine
16:17:43 <ehird> oklokol: basically (I'm going to be second-hand egotistical (does that even make sense?) and assume you vaguely care),
16:18:26 <ehird> some data (object, whatever) is viewed/modified through the "view" of some behaviour defining a ui element
16:18:27 <Deewiant> ehird: SISC agrees with mzscheme
16:18:39 <ehird> and this directly manipulates the underlying data reference
16:18:39 <Deewiant> But I don't care, I want to know where the hell they're getting this from
16:18:50 <ehird> so you can take out the object and give it a new interface and they sync up
16:19:04 <ehird> and you could e.g.
16:19:04 <ehird> be running a rotate view on an image,
16:19:09 <ehird> then take out the underlying object and put it in a zoom view
16:19:15 <ehird> and if you used the rotate view some more
16:19:21 <ehird> the zoomer would update according to the new underlying object
16:19:35 <olegfink> that sounds somewhat close to MVC to me.
16:19:42 <ehird> olegfink: it's not, though
16:19:48 <ehird> it's far more functional/non-destructive
16:19:57 <ehird> and the "views" are much more lightweight
16:20:14 <ehird> it's very close to directly manipulating the object
16:20:23 <ehird> it's just that the viewing/manipulation is abstracted away
16:20:24 <olegfink> the only reason frp works in k3 is that it has a very simple type system, doing what you're proposing probably requires much more
16:20:34 <ehird> no, this could work trivially with dynamic/duck typing
16:20:44 <ehird> you just need objects
16:20:47 <olegfink> K does that, but only for a string repr.:
16:21:07 <ehird> but yeah, you basically making UIs by composing mini objects with abstracted direct-manipulations
16:21:08 <olegfink> every value is assigned two functions, ..f and ..u, which is format and update respectively
16:21:21 <ehird> and feed the underlying data into other things
16:21:24 <ehird> thus locking things together
16:21:33 <olegfink> the first maps the value to string, the second does the reverse whenever the user updates the screen view
16:22:33 <olegfink> the problem is, again, the same as with acme: we vaguely inderstand how to do all this with plain text but not with anything else
16:22:53 <ehird> i really don't think the idea i'm expressing is mvc though
16:23:27 <olegfink> recall the usual wysiwyg problem, you just can't present rich text on screen in an editable way so you could re-serialize it with some degree of common sense
16:23:54 <olegfink> yeah, what you're expressing is very close to what K does
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16:24:13 <ehird> but the thing is that you can build any sort of UI with it, because it's essentially completely generic
16:24:22 <ehird> as long as your UI maps to some tangible data, which is always good UI practice
16:25:13 <olegfink> damn, our ajax k ui thingy seems to be in the middle of a yet another revamp, so I can't show you that on the web
16:25:49 <olegfink> ...it basically doesn't do editing now
16:26:04 <ehird> are you the nsl.com owner? unless there's a bunch of people who do both K and esolangs
16:26:09 <ehird> which I wouldn't put past the language
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16:28:49 <ehird> well that killed the channel :)
16:28:57 <olegfink> no, the person behind nsl.com is stevan apter
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16:30:24 <ehird> when i've looked into k it's just seemed like it's bogged down by corporate concerns etc and there's no real easy way to get into programming fun stuff with it
16:31:26 <ehird> that program by kx that converted k code into english made an impression on me though
16:31:37 <olegfink> as you can see, stevan does. :-) I'm trying as well.
16:31:49 <ehird> olegfink: is my impression that k4/q sort of drifts away from this sort of stuff correct?
16:32:01 <ehird> i couldn't find a free k3 binary anywhere.
16:32:19 <olegfink> at least it has neither ui nor the dependency/fr stuff
16:32:42 <olegfink> both documentation and distributions
16:32:46 <ehird> olegfink: heh, it just had to have every platform but mine
16:32:54 <ehird> i know k4 supports osx, maybe k3 didn't
16:33:07 <olegfink> yeah, only linux, solaris and windows :-(
16:33:52 <ehird> i know qemu has something that might let me run the linux one natively
16:33:55 <ehird> that forwards the syscalls or something
16:33:55 <olegfink> but indeed I find k4/q much less fun
16:34:01 <ehird> or is that just same-os, different-arch i wonder
16:34:04 <ehird> and iirc it only works on linux
16:34:30 <olegfink> osx is ought to have some linux syscall emulator
16:34:38 <ehird> bit of a niche market
16:34:45 <olegfink> every other os (well, except windows) seems to have one
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16:34:53 <ehird> it doesn't need it for games like bsd, because more games exist for osx than linux,
16:35:08 <ehird> and most other "linux" only software is foss and works on bsds too
16:35:13 <ehird> (of which osx is one)
16:35:27 <ehird> the proprietary app that supports linux but not osx is a rare thing
16:36:22 <olegfink> heh, then you're probably out of luck ;-)
16:36:36 <olegfink> then wait while we finish the web version of k3 ui
16:36:39 <ehird> [[QEMU has two operating modes[2]:
16:36:39 <ehird> User mode emulation
16:36:40 <ehird> QEMU can launch Linux or Darwin/Mac OS X processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. Target OS system calls are thunked for endianness and 32/64 bit mismatches.]]
16:37:02 <ehird> olegfink: is that like some try ruby sorta dealie
16:37:08 <ehird> http://tryruby.hobix.com
16:37:44 <olegfink> aye, *this* functionality already works, but the ui can only do scalars and number lists
16:38:24 <olegfink> also one (mis)feature tryruby lacks is of course the ability to do a rm -rf *
16:38:43 <ehird> that's, a feature? :D
16:38:44 <olegfink> because K has no built-in ways to disable harmful stuff
16:39:04 <ehird> tryruby uses why's freaky deaky sandbox (real name)
16:39:22 <ehird> which is a patch to the impl and some gnarly ruby code
16:39:35 <olegfink> well, then I could as well. K seems to feel pretty comfortable chrootted to an empty dir
16:39:59 <ehird> just do what GregorR's HackEgo does
16:40:01 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23971
16:40:03 <ehird> olegfink: use plash
16:40:09 <ehird> it's a debian thingy that lets you totally isolate stuff
16:40:13 <ehird> chrooted, random user id each time
16:40:18 <ehird> syscalls selectively enabled etc
16:41:20 <ehird> wonder if i could convince cygwin to compile on os x
16:43:25 <ehird> http://www.openlina.com/ iiinteresting, apparently you can make it seamlessly do linux cli apps on os x
16:43:30 <ehird> (as well as gui apps on etc etc)
16:45:04 <ehird> olegfink: am I right in thinking that most of k's benefit comes from the libs rather than the core language?
16:45:11 <ehird> it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to reimplement the latter
16:46:19 <olegfink> surprisingly, it seems that it's the other way around
16:46:33 <ehird> the semantics don't seem overly complex.
16:46:47 <ehird> olegfink: of course, i know the paradigm is powerful
16:46:54 <olegfink> at least while quite a lot of smart people like K, there isn't any implementation
16:47:10 <ehird> there isn't any implementation?
16:47:12 <olegfink> one reason maybe it that the existing one is good enough for them. :-)
16:47:23 <olegfink> that is, except the official one
16:47:32 <ehird> olegfink: it's just a question of, if you reimplemented the core language and not the libs, people wouldn't use it
16:47:43 <ehird> because it'd be, while a powerful paradigm, not very useful
16:47:55 <olegfink> you see, the most surprising thing is that there aren't any "libs"
16:48:03 <ehird> the gui, f'instance
16:48:10 <olegfink> that is, there is a lot of stuff people use on the internet, but it's not standard
16:48:24 <ehird> i'm just trying to figure out if/why a foss would be hard/impractical
16:48:38 <ehird> i mean, ok, so there's no libs
16:48:41 <ehird> but that just means the core language is big
16:48:44 <olegfink> that's a question I keep wondering about for almost a year now.
16:48:52 <ehird> *a foss reimplementation
16:48:56 <olegfink> yes, the gui is about 60% of the implementation
16:48:56 <ehird> can't go around dropping words.
16:49:10 <ehird> and without the gui, it wouldn't be nearly as useful, i gather
16:49:31 <ehird> unfortunately a reimplementation would be almost possible unless you're a k guru since all you have is a binary blob...
16:49:35 <ehird> unless the docs are really precise
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16:50:03 <olegfink> yeah, and then comes the question why the said 'k gurus' don't reimplement it.
16:50:21 <ehird> ok, kref.pdf is ridiculously long
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16:50:23 <olegfink> e.g. the nsl.com owner, who has created a few dozen k-like languages /in k/
16:50:37 <ehird> olegfink: better things to do i guess
16:51:01 <ehird> they're on supported platforms, don't want to change the language in ways that require the source and have a copy of the impl & manual
16:51:04 <olegfink> when I asked him about it he said that the implementation doesn't matter, ideas do
16:51:23 <olegfink> well, actually I guess he has the source as well. :-)
16:51:25 <ehird> well that's a wonderful philosophical yammering but doesn't change the reality of what the closed-sourceness limits :P
16:51:35 <ehird> closed source seems fine from the inside
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16:51:49 <ehird> olegfink: probably also a question of loyalty to kx
16:52:46 <ehird> at least, seems that way to me
16:53:04 <olegfink> yeah, that's what I figured, but the question is harder than that -- there is a now-opensource a+ which is a k predecessor and shares many features with it
16:53:14 <olegfink> and basically noone seems to be interested in it
16:53:16 <ehird> frankly the code looks ugly
16:53:27 <ehird> and it seems to lack things like the gui
16:53:48 <ehird> olegfink: I think the people who would use A+ use J instead
16:53:55 <ehird> I don't see a single reason to use A+ instead of J
16:54:23 <olegfink> source availability again? :-)
16:54:44 <ehird> olegfink: but nobody seems to care about that :\
16:54:46 <olegfink> I can't say there aren't any places in K I wouldn't like to tweak a bit
16:54:48 <ehird> at least not in this circle
16:55:13 <ehird> i'm tempted to try reimplementing K
16:55:26 <ehird> might be a nice way to learn it ;-)
16:55:41 <ehird> K's gui does look like the nicest way to hack a quick UI up on current systems
16:56:01 <ehird> although if I wanted something polished, i.e. not just something for me and a few others to quickly jab at, i'd always hand-craft it on current systems
16:56:10 <olegfink> yeah, that's what my friend and me are doing for the last year or so, however, we're currently mostly doing K code than implement K
16:57:09 <olegfink> unfortunately we mostly do xmpp
16:57:23 <ehird> i have a google talk account, though adium's chat support is lacking.
16:57:35 <ehird> olegfink: colloquy does xmpp!
16:57:43 <ehird> as well as SILC and some ancient protocol called ICB
16:58:17 <ehird> though I'm not sure how you do a MUC on another server with xmpp
16:58:43 <olegfink> your client should have an explicit option for that
17:00:56 <olegfink> with the C implementation we just hit a wall because we apparently needed something cooler than CPP
17:01:54 <ehird> olegfink: something more than cpp? have you SEEN arthur whitney's j prototype? :D
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17:02:16 <olegfink> seen, read and -i hope- understood
17:02:26 <olegfink> as well as some amount of a+ and j7 code.
17:02:28 <ehird> after de-cppization you can sort of understand it IME
17:02:45 <ehird> I'd probably go crazy and write it in Haskell or Scheme
17:02:49 <olegfink> (j7 is an old source-available version of J)
17:02:49 <ehird> because why not?!?!
17:03:28 <olegfink> got stuck because it lacked high-order polymorphism and so there was boilerplate all over the code
17:03:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:03:41 <olegfink> well, haskell would be slow, K is fast ;-)
17:03:44 <ehird> haskell has polyhistomorphic functors up the wazoo!
17:03:48 <ehird> Haskell ain't slow.
17:03:53 <ehird> ghc's pretty sufficiently smart
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17:06:17 <pikhq> olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast.
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17:07:04 <ehird> olegfink: you'll have to repeat your last /msg or two
17:07:20 <pikhq> olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast.
17:07:26 <pikhq> That's what thou missed.
17:07:46 <olegfink> pikhq: K as in a marketed solution pretty much depends on gcc sse vectorisations, so sorry, we need you beloved for(;;) loops.
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17:08:07 <ehird> olegfink: haskell has smart vectorisation actually.
17:08:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:08:53 -!- ehird has joined.
17:09:00 <ehird> you have to repeat your last /msg again :-(
17:09:06 * ehird deletes all contacts from gtalk
17:09:10 <ehird> maybe my client won't crash then
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17:10:04 <olegfink> ehird: just use bitlbee with your irc client
17:10:19 <ehird> too much work. I'll just make a jabber.org account
17:10:23 -!- Asztal has joined.
17:10:49 <ehird> wow, that was easy
17:10:54 <ehird> username, password, repeat password, captcha
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17:21:59 <ehird> olegfink: how fast IS k btw?
17:22:20 <ehird> i get the impression it's basically going at the speed of light wrt the bog-standard vector operation
17:22:29 <ehird> and deriving any speed benefits from that
17:22:39 <ehird> (can it run on a gpu? :))
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17:25:09 <olegfink> usually k has the same speed as good C code
17:25:27 <olegfink> that's for the very reason of it being a thin wrapper around good C array processing code
17:26:04 <olegfink> that is, implementing K functions in C is very easy
17:26:25 <ehird> yeah, the issue is when you do something that isn't really an array
17:26:32 <pikhq_> Mmkay, so K gets you good data parallelism.
17:26:41 <ehird> (<k zealots> yeah, we can't do all these things: nothing)
17:27:46 <pikhq_> Of course, data parallelism is not hard to do well.
17:28:04 <ehird> pikhq_: Is that a vaguely dressed diss of K I see before me?!
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17:28:38 <pikhq_> ehird: Not especially. Data parallelism does need to be done well. It's more a complaint about people focusing *soley* on that.
17:28:53 <ehird> have you ever used an array language?
17:28:57 <ehird> it's not for the performance
17:28:59 <ehird> it's for the paradigm
17:29:15 <ehird> they are genuinely pleasant to use
17:29:30 <pikhq_> Well, yeah; K seems to focus on making it very clear what the code's doing, and it just happens to get good performance.
17:30:13 <ehird> K is very, very implicit
17:30:25 <ehird> at least by my reading.
17:30:50 <pikhq_> ehird: ... Algorithmically.
17:31:02 <ehird> K's algorithms are all internal
17:31:03 <olegfink> k isn't that large, but it's difficult to read unless you know all the syntax
17:31:07 <ehird> unless i'm reading it very wrongly
17:31:13 <ehird> i never really see actual K algorithms
17:31:15 <pikhq_> Erm. I'm saying this wrong.
17:31:16 <ehird> it does them for you
17:31:27 <ehird> http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k is still one of my favourite pieces of code to date
17:32:02 <pikhq_> Making it clear that you're, say, "doing vector operations foo bar and baz to vectors 1 through 3", I mean.
17:32:11 <pikhq_> And I may just be sounding stupid right now.
17:32:12 <ehird> pikhq_: vectors 1 through 3?
17:32:14 <ehird> you mean "vectors"
17:32:22 <ehird> vector operations? you mean regular operations? :P
17:32:25 <ehird> olegfink: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/calc.k // am i reading this correctly as oop?
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17:32:36 <ehird> looks like it copies J's ugly of using strings as method bodies
17:32:52 <ehird> what're those strings then
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17:33:15 <pikhq_> Anyways, it's trying to be like APL, without the need for a space cadet keyboard.
17:33:52 <ehird> calc.eval:"exp:5:. exp"
17:34:04 <ehird> pikhq_: no, that's j
17:34:13 <pikhq_> ehird: I'm being dumb, then.
17:34:26 <olegfink> calc is a dictionary, that is a keyed table
17:34:35 <ehird> what are the strings
17:34:44 <olegfink> an entry 'eval' has the given value
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17:35:26 <olegfink> in the K reference it is stated that when a data item is shown as a button its action is determined by evaluating its value
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17:36:41 <olegfink> exp:5:. exp is something like "exp = show $ eval exp" in something like haskell
17:36:44 <Asztal> damn all these successful errors
17:37:00 <olegfink> er, something like something like.
17:37:20 <pikhq> There's an 'eval' function in Haskell?
17:37:21 <ehird> olegfink: so, right, as a string
17:37:58 <olegfink> yeah, because k ui generally prefers strings over niladic functions
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18:19:21 <nooga> the count of something is: something count or somethings count?
18:19:28 <nooga> user count or users count?
18:20:01 <ehird> but don't say that.
18:20:44 <GregorR-L> "<ehird> but don't say that." ... why not?
18:21:23 <GregorR-L> Looks like I'm going to have to go figure out the people-who-find-that-phrasing-awkward count.
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18:21:33 <ehird> that's less awkward.
18:25:24 <ehird> a a the drugs like the
18:25:39 <ehird> i on the is the i'm it the looks
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18:38:16 <nooga> this whole K look weird
18:43:57 <nooga> i'm thinking about buying Snow Leopard
18:48:36 <ehird> it'll set you back all of less than 30bux
18:50:38 <nooga> i wonder if it's worth it
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18:51:49 <ehird> note: i haven't used it
18:52:08 <ehird> but seriously, only an iphone user would consider $30 a lot for software, why in my day we had bbedit
18:52:15 <ehird> and we were happy, we were
18:56:41 <HackEgo> BBEdit 9. Bare Bones Software develops and publishes software for OS X, ... Get started with a look at BBEdit, our flagship editor or Yojimbo, ... \ www.barebones.com/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
18:56:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: since System 6 iirc
18:57:00 <ehird> the "canonical" macintosh code editor
18:57:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: People wrote code on System 1. :P
18:57:25 <ehird> But, well, everything was plain text back then.
18:57:31 <ehird> (unless it was word processed)
18:57:44 <GregorR-L> My boss at Intel, who previously worked at Apple, told horror stories of cross-compiling all their code from AIX workstations.
18:58:11 <ehird> "AIX Version 1, introduced in 1986 for the IBM 6150 RT workstation"
18:58:21 <GregorR-L> This is in the PPC days, mind you.
18:58:22 <ehird> "Release dateApril, 1988 (info)" — [[System 6]]
18:58:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: yeah, ppc came in the system 7 days
18:58:58 <GregorR-L> But if they were using AIX for PPC, I find it hard to believe they did everything natively on m68k :P
19:00:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know that there have been programs written on System 6, for System 6, in its heyday.
19:00:41 <ehird> Specifically, Mark Pilgrim's GPL'd (basically the only programs to be licensed that way at the time) apps.
19:00:42 <GregorR-L> I don't doubt it, I just find it terrifying :)
19:00:44 <ehird> http://diveintomark.org/projects/classic/
19:01:27 <ehird> system 6 is quite capable
19:02:32 <fizzie> MPW 1.0 was apparently released in 1986, and I'm sure someone used it too.
19:02:53 <ehird> what was that thing
19:02:56 <ehird> or whatever it was
19:03:32 <fizzie> I think CodeWarrior at least did some 68k stuff.
19:03:49 <ehird> also, urbandictionary confuses me
19:03:51 <ehird> [[A word describing somebody who is uncomfortable being openly amiable and kind, so they give more subtle hints to their goodwill while maintaining a disagreeable exterior. See also.
19:03:51 <ehird> That man spent the entire meal complaining to me about my service, and then he left me a $5 tip. He's totally aggressive passive.]]
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19:04:50 <fizzie> CodeWarrior people did a Symbian development system too. And something for the PlayStation.
19:05:24 <fizzie> "Even more amazing was the Macintosh Development System, an assembly-only tool that was Apple's very first tool for developing on the Mac (earlier Mac software was cross-developed on the Lisa). MDS will run on a Mac 512 with System 2!"
19:05:44 <ehird> CodeWarrior was originally developed by Metrowerks based on a C compiler and environment for 68k, developed by Andreas Hommel and licensed to Metrowerks. The first versions of CodeWarrior targeted the PowerPC Macintosh, with much of the development done by a group from the original THINK C team. Much like THINK C, which was known for its fast compile times, CodeWarrior was faster than Macintosh Programmer's Workshop (MPW), the development tools written by App
19:05:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THINK_C
19:06:03 <ehird> FireFly: lisa makes sense
19:06:06 <fizzie> MPW's free nowadays, which is nice. I installed some version on that Performa.
19:06:25 <ehird> i tried to install it but it's distributed as 9348578934579345 separate files
19:06:27 <ehird> for each component
19:07:59 <fizzie> The FTP site has single .img.bin files in addition to the Segmented_Image ".img_NNof24.bin" nonsense. At least for some parts. Don't remember how it was when I installed it.
19:08:15 <ehird> exactly, a fuckton of .img.bin files
19:12:16 <nooga> http://bellard.org/otcc/otcc.c man, this is nice
19:12:41 <ehird> http://bellard.org/tcc/ non-obfuscated cousHOLY SHIT
19:12:47 <ehird> The 64-bit guy who gave up just got a release!
19:12:55 <ehird> "Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this."
19:13:29 <ehird> Shinh of anarchy golf revived tcc along with someone else :D
19:14:43 <nooga> that otcc looks awesome
19:19:32 <asiekierka> International Obfuscated Pascal Code Contest
19:20:28 <oerjan> Program WhatTheFuck(Input, Output);
19:21:12 <oerjan> i was going by very old pascal here
19:21:13 <GregorR-L> International Obfuscated Bash Code Contest
19:22:50 <asiekierka> I was thinking of a Piet interpreter in obfuscated C :P
19:25:16 <asiekierka> Then I could run the C obfuscator through a C beautifer and use my C obfuscator on the result so we can see if it's better or worse than human work
19:25:25 <asiekierka> ...That makes sense in a very nonsensical way
19:26:11 <asiekierka> well, i'm not the first one to request pascal
19:26:11 <asiekierka> http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Syntax-Games-td171449.html
19:31:06 <asiekierka> this is a hello world in obfuscated-ish pascal
19:37:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
19:38:41 <ehird> pascal's wager must have been a troll
19:38:44 <ehird> it's so hilariously wrong
19:39:40 <oerjan> in fact it was posthumous
19:40:02 <ehird> it was not humorous at all
19:46:36 <oerjan> a very grave matter indeed
19:47:01 <ehird> i wonder why there aren't virtual machines that can change their memory allocation dynamically according to need.
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19:56:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you mean by that; if you just mean adding/removing memory allocated to a particular quest system, at least Xen and I think KVM can do that for Linux guests with the "balloon" driver.
19:58:02 <fizzie> Yes. They're operating systems that are on a sort of a vision quest.
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19:59:02 <ehird> fizzie: i meant automatically
19:59:08 <ehird> if it's using n megs, it gets n+a little megs
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19:59:14 <ehird> oh this vm wants umm 573 mb
19:59:19 <ehird> oops i ran out of fake memory
20:00:06 <oklopol> fortunately i'm not the one being talked to, because i'm being inactive
20:00:09 <fizzie> Given that there's the mechanisms for dynamically changing the memory amounts, I'm sure someone has rigged up some sort of automatic system.
20:02:00 <fizzie> The "Running Xen" book says "If a user desired an automatic policy for memory management, one could be written without much trouble" and then some ideas about scripting one, but maybe it hasn't been implemented.
20:03:06 <fizzie> VMware ESX apparently (haven't used it) has some sort of system where you define minimum, maximum and percentage shares for all machines, and then it periodically samples those machines and steals memory from machines not using it, and gives it to heavily loaded ones.
20:05:47 <ehird> xen isn't acceptable
20:05:50 <ehird> i'm running other oses
20:06:06 <ehird> basically running server ubuntu, mounting os x dirs, hiding it then sshing in
20:26:11 <nooga> is it possible to run separate OSes on multi-core processor so that they feel as if ran on single computer?
20:26:28 <ehird> nooga doesn't know what a vm is.
20:26:56 <ehird> nooga: modern vms run the instructions directly on your hardware
20:26:56 <nooga> i don't want to run lilnux in a vm that is a program in OS X's user space
20:27:07 <ehird> and this happens in kernel spac
20:27:13 <nooga> i want to run linux and OS X parallel
20:27:13 <ehird> the only emulated part is the devices
20:27:19 <ehird> ↑, you're being stupid
20:27:29 <nooga> yes i know i'm stupid
20:27:37 <ehird> nooga: you could make an OS that optimises the shit out of the devices part and only runs a vm
20:27:40 <ehird> that would be nice and fast
20:28:41 <nooga> i thought there is some thin layer that allows to boot several OSes at once and keep them running on separate cores sharing ram and shit
20:29:18 <ehird> that's just a "VM OS" running multiple vms with uber-optimised virtual devices (can't get around that)
20:29:25 <ehird> with dynamic memory allocation, I guess
20:29:53 <nooga> it could be done by hardware :D
20:32:14 <ehird> hardware doesn't do task switching, either
20:32:18 <ehird> and we don't complain about the performance of that
20:32:28 <ehird> it's just that VM products have to route the virtual devices through an existing OS
20:32:35 <ehird> which adds a lot of overhead
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20:38:37 <nooga> i've got PC and mac and 2 lcd displays, it'd be cool to place the displays next to each other and use one keyboard and mouse, like i'm moving mouse cursor from one screen to another (from OS X to linux, for instance) and keyboard automagically changes focus + ability to drag files from one desktop to another would be nice
20:39:19 <nooga> i'm sure it's possible with a piece of clever hardware and relatively simple software on both machines
20:39:53 <GregorR-L> Or, just one slightly-more-clever piece of software.
20:41:18 <nooga> liek connecting input devices to one computer and writing network based mouse+kbd driver for the second computer
20:41:49 <GregorR-L> Oooooooor .. http://synergy2.sf.net/
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20:43:53 <nooga> it's such a good idea that it had to be done ;D
20:44:38 <fizzie> I've been using Synergy2 for that lately; earlier I used a VNC client I wrote that did not fetch display updates at all, just sent keyboard and mouse events, but that had some video-related problems.
20:44:45 <GregorR-L> There would be advantages to the hardware/software version.
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21:50:52 <augur> lolcats are over a hundred years old
21:51:15 <augur> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AntiqueLolcat.jpg
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21:51:23 <augur> a postcard from 1905
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21:51:47 <GregorR-L> If it was, it'd say "WHERE R MY DIN-DIN"
21:52:12 <augur> this was a more civilized time
21:52:16 <augur> before the breakdown of kitty grammar
21:54:04 <fizzie> This is your father's grammar, for a more... civilized age.
21:54:25 <oklopol> is that some kinda reference to something
21:54:35 <fizzie> oklopol: It's the Star Wars, you may have heard of it.
21:54:55 <GregorR-L> I totally forgot that that was a reference >_>
21:55:03 <fizzie> I guess they stole it; though the parentheses thing wasn't original in xkcd either.
21:55:06 <oklopol> i actully do vaguely remember seeing something like that on xkcd
21:55:08 <fizzie> At least I think it wasn't.
21:55:40 <oklopol> what was the context in sw
21:55:54 <fizzie> oklopol: It's about Luke's father's lightsaber.
21:56:02 <fizzie> Which is a more elegant weapon than some clumsy blaster.
21:56:18 <fizzie> The Obi-Wan guy's presenting it to Luke.
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21:56:23 <oklopol> err, is it "*from* a more..."?
21:56:50 <fizzie> "Your father's light saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
21:57:11 <fizzie> Well, if you trust IMDb.
21:57:39 <augur> i find it funny that obi wan talks about blaster randomness
21:57:53 <augur> and the storm trooper blasters are notorious for being compeltely random
21:57:53 <fizzie> It seems I misspelled "light saber", though.
21:58:15 <fizzie> oklopol: He's the "old mentor" guy, you must know the type.
21:58:26 <augur> yeah, hes the obiwan of starwars
21:59:01 <augur> yoda is the yoda of star wars
21:59:15 <oklopol> i see what you're doing there!
21:59:29 <fizzie> There's the famous part in the first movie about "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise", when they for the remaining part of the saga can't hit the broad side of a barn.
21:59:34 <augur> http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG << obiwan
21:59:36 <augur> http://www.classesandcareers.net/education-careers/wp-content/uploads/yoda.jpg << yoda
21:59:53 <fizzie> You can tell them apart by the colour.
22:00:06 <augur> oi, dont be racist
22:00:14 <oklopol> also i do in fact remember yoda
22:00:25 <fizzie> Talked funnily did he.
22:00:29 <oklopol> i remember all things except human faces
22:00:30 <GregorR-L> Judge them not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character judge them by.
22:00:36 <augur> but not like that :D
22:00:53 <fizzie> Well, I didn't want to be a plagiarist.
22:01:07 <augur> his syntax was mostly OSV
22:01:30 <augur> language log has a whole slew of posts on yoda grammar
22:01:43 <oklopol> so... it'd be "he talked funnily"?
22:02:02 <augur> funnily he talked, hmmMMMmm?
22:02:40 <oklopol> THEN I GUESS YOU WERE NOT BEING 100% TRUTHISHFULL THERE HUH
22:02:50 <augur> gregor wasnt, at least
22:02:56 <augur> i said "but not entirely" :D
22:03:09 <GregorR-L> It's effectively the object. Object doesn't always imply noun.
22:03:12 <augur> but it is true that he can be OSV and still do that sort of thing
22:03:21 <augur> GregorR-L: its actually not really an object
22:03:42 <oklopol> GregorR: so not the object
22:03:49 <augur> its an adverbial modifier
22:03:49 <oklopol> your mom is more of an object
22:03:57 <GregorR-L> If the original sentence was "he funnily talked", then "funnily" would be an adverbial modifier.
22:04:14 <augur> its an adverbial in both cases
22:04:26 <augur> and in fact "he funnily talked" is rather bad
22:04:41 <augur> manner adverbials prefer to follow the VP in english
22:05:21 <augur> now THAT is an object. :)
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22:05:53 <oklopol> he funnily talked himself out of the situation; he talked funnily during it
22:06:03 <oklopol> no i guess that's not right.
22:06:29 <augur> "he funnily talked ..." sounds more like a parenthetical to me
22:06:43 <augur> "he funnily enough talked himself out of the situation! haha :D"
22:07:55 <oklopol> anyway, i just tried to make a "funnily enough", you make me so self-conscious of my not being native that everything feels incorrect
22:08:19 <augur> aww dont worry oklopol
22:08:37 <augur> its your incorrectnesses that enrich english
22:09:26 <oerjan> discussing grammar, are you?
22:09:29 <oklopol> most clearly that must be true
22:09:40 <augur> oerjan: indeed we are
22:09:47 <oklopol> grammar you are discussing, mmhmmmmm?
22:10:01 <augur> again bad yoda talk
22:10:05 <augur> oerjan's was correct
22:10:09 <oklopol> hey. i just know what you give me
22:10:38 <oerjan> i thought i swapped are and you
22:10:44 <oklopol> my point was mostly that your VSO sounded stupid in that one
22:10:44 <augur> you did that too, but its a question
22:10:51 <augur> and english has subject-auxiliary inversion in questions
22:11:02 <augur> yoda's grammar doesn't, afaik, change that
22:12:12 <augur> http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001269089414569134552%3Aqvjtfauf7ou&ie=UTF-8&q=yoda&sa=Search
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22:28:49 <oklopol> i can see the th-character now
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01:56:07 <GregorR-L_> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FGregorInPink.jpg I'm so classy
01:59:40 <GregorR-L_> Well, all pink isn't my USUAL thing, in fact I only have one pink shirt, one pink tie and one pink hat. I just decided to wear them all together today :P
02:00:08 <Pthing> came over a little queer
02:00:15 <ehird> we're all queer here.
02:02:20 <pikhq> GregorR-L_: Out of curiosity, do any "god hates fags" people come to your university?
02:02:42 <GregorR-L_> I haven't seen any, but at the same time it's hardly PSU.
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02:03:21 <pikhq> They've come to mine.
02:03:35 <ehird> Have gay sex in front of them.
02:03:37 <GregorR-L> Purdue is the only big-ten university without a "queer resource center".
02:03:39 <pikhq> ehird: Not them specifically.
02:03:43 <pikhq> Other, smaller groups.
02:04:01 <pikhq> There's more gay guys at my school than there are girls at all...
02:04:14 <pikhq> (this, though funny-sounding, is not hard to pull off)
02:04:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Then in terms of maximum utilization of social resources, your choice is clear.
02:16:13 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Which school is this, btw? I forget.
02:16:38 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Missouri University of Science and Technology.
02:16:51 <pikhq> It's not so much that it's a gay haven as it is a not-female haven.
02:17:17 <GregorR-L> That being said, smart girls are HOT.
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03:57:21 <pikhq> Finally, Playstation emulation that doesn't irritate me.
03:59:06 <pikhq> Helps having a Playstation controller.
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09:04:46 <asiekierka> i'm working on my obfuscated Pascal BF interpreter
09:25:41 <asiekierka> []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-][]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
09:25:51 <asiekierka> that's what my interpreter shows while running this code
09:25:59 <asiekierka> []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-]
09:25:59 <asiekierka> "A*$";?@![#>>+<<]>[>>]<<<<[>++<[-]]>.>.
09:28:52 <asiekierka> also quine.b gives me weird trash at the end
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11:01:53 <Deewiant> Woot, I understood almost half of the introduction of fizzie's thesis presentation
11:03:28 <oerjan> well if it was in finnish, then you still beat most of us
11:04:17 <oerjan> THEN YOU ARE JUST STUPID
11:05:44 <Deewiant> Well, at least I know what fizzie looks like now
11:05:54 <Deewiant> I can stalk him around the campus
11:15:33 <oerjan> indeed, it is quite conceivable that he didn't manage to finish it ;D
11:15:36 <nooga> 4what is it about?
11:15:44 <Deewiant> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition"
11:17:11 <oerjan> no longer will the computer be able to say "I can't hear you, la la la la"
11:24:41 <nooga> longer computer will say you be able to hear the la la la la, no i can't
11:29:57 <nooga> regexps look so eso
11:30:26 <nooga> text.gsub!(/\/\/.*$/," ")
11:30:26 <nooga> text.gsub!(/\/\*.*?\*\//m," ")
11:30:27 <nooga> text.gsub!(/^\s*(#\s*(.*\\\n)*.*$)/," ")
11:30:29 <nooga> cla = text.scan(/^\s*(class|struct)\s+(\w+)(?:\s*:\s*(protected|public|private)?\s*(\w+))?/)
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13:09:22 <fizzie> I still don't know what Deewiant looks like, though I guess I can sort of eliminate, given that I knew most of the other people there.
13:09:29 <fizzie> On the other hand I'm terrible at remembering faces.
13:09:50 <fizzie> They should stamp ID numbers over the faces of everyone I ought to know.
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13:24:38 <Deewiant> root is so rude, always rebooting machines when you least expect it
13:25:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was next to the guy next to you
13:26:28 <fizzie> Okay, that's what I thought. I think. I probably won't recognize you the next time I see you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much.
13:33:01 <fizzie> I also went and wrote that "kypsyysnäyte" thing.
13:33:22 <fizzie> Lit. translated, "ripeness sample".
13:39:14 <nooga> guys chat on the same # for years, they go to the same univeristy and they don't bother to meet irl
13:39:30 <fizzie> Oh, and the thesis is nowhere yet, though I think we commonly put those to the web after they've been graded and accepted.
13:40:07 <Deewiant> I.e. the school doesn't do that
13:40:39 <fizzie> The school doesn't, yes. I just think at least some of the people in the lab have theirs on their personal pages.
13:41:13 <fizzie> Currently the thesis is in the hands of the professor for final comments before the bind-to-book part.
13:41:35 <fizzie> Or "books". Should figure out how many copies I need, actually.
13:42:02 <oklopol> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" <<< Deewiant: did you understand the spectral envelope estimation half or the noise robust speech recognition half?
13:42:42 <Deewiant> I understood half of the "speech recognition" fifth
13:42:54 <Deewiant> But it was maybe about half of the introduction
13:44:02 <oklopol> and here i thought you knew everything
13:44:15 <fizzie> The presentation wasn't really very polished, I just took the conference thing (which didn't really have much of a speech recognition introduction; being the Nth presentation in a speech recognition conference, I thought people might be a bit bored of it) and quickly slapped something on, without practicing how to utter it.
13:44:47 <fizzie> I guess I could do a more followable speech recognition presentation, but that thesis-lecture is officially just 20 minutes and I had to fit the whole thesis in it too.
13:45:26 <fizzie> The slide-PDF had 28 pages already, that's not in the suggested range for a 20 minute show.
13:45:31 <Deewiant> Yes, that's of course not the point
13:45:39 <oklopol> what's spectral envelope estimation? something like guessing what spectum is enough for getting all the relevant frequencies?
13:45:41 <Deewiant> I think you spent a bit more than 20 minutes anyway
13:45:51 <fizzie> Yes, I hear most people do.
13:46:14 <Deewiant> They're not very strict about it, of course
13:47:39 <fizzie> oklopol: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/speechspec.png <-- that's a speech spectrum and an envelope estimate.
13:48:02 <oklopol> well let me give it an understanding
13:48:17 <Deewiant> Aside from something you put paper in
13:48:44 <oklopol> so basically you the envelop the fft
13:48:50 <fizzie> "b. Electr. Engineering. A curve formed by joining the successive peaks of a graph of an oscillation, esp. a modulated wave."
13:49:01 <fizzie> That's close to the sense.
13:49:12 <Deewiant> Yeah, well that's pretty obvious from the pic
13:49:21 <Deewiant> I guess I meant to ask what it's good for
13:50:36 <fizzie> Well, for speech that comb-like peaky structure comes from the excitation source, which looks like a pulse train, while the shape of the envelope comes from the resonances in the vocal tract.
13:51:31 <fizzie> And since what distinguishes the meaningful sounds is the vocal tract part (the comb structure is pretty much just about the speaking pitch and prosody and so on) it makes sense to use a nice envelope estimate instead of the spectrum itself.
13:52:29 <oklopol> alright, but what exactly is the excitation source?
13:53:04 <fizzie> If you want to talk physics, it's the periodic airflow through the glottis.
13:54:19 <oklopol> so basically what happens @ vocal chords
13:56:59 <fizzie> People have been modeling the glottal pulse shape, too, it's a sort of a half-sine hump.
13:57:39 <oklopol> would a half-sine hump result in a pulsey fft?
13:59:10 <fizzie> If it's a periodic sequence of humps, yes. Though the peaks aren't then impulses, like they would be for the idealized impulse-train-excitation case.
14:04:16 <oklopol> "the peaks aren't then impulses"?
14:05:09 <oklopol> do you mean they are not just single points, but wider?
14:09:04 <fizzie> Yes. In the very horribly much idealized model the excitation source is an impulse train, the vocal tract is an all-pole filter, and the resulting spectrum is a pure line spectrum, with just single points at the harmonic frequencies, with the envelope shape determined by the vocal tract filter.
14:09:11 <fizzie> Of course that's not at all how it works.
14:10:33 <fizzie> One glottal pulse approximation I've seen looks like g[n] = { 1/2*(1-cos(pi*n/N1)), 0 <= n < N1; cos(pi*(n-N1)/(2*N2)), N1 <= n <= N1+N2; 0 elsewhere }. I guess I could FFT a couple of those to see what the spectrum looks like.
14:19:36 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/train.png -> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/spec.png (Please don't ask me to explain the slope.)
14:21:15 <oklopol> train is that g[n] thing right?
14:22:05 <fizzie> spec is the log-scale (dB in the Y axis, actually) magnitude spectrum.
14:23:34 <oklopol> what does the idealized impulse train look like, unfft'd?
14:26:13 <oklopol> wait wait i think i confused a few terms in what you said earlier
14:26:28 <oklopol> i'm quite slow at getting into things
14:27:05 <fizzie> An impulse train looks like, well, the same except for impulses. Something like g[n] = { 1 if n = 0 (mod T0); 0 elsewhere } with a suitable period T0 for the fundamental frequency you want.
14:27:33 <fizzie> Okay, so that g[n] I gave was just the shape of one of the humps.
14:28:27 <oklopol> was there some name for the two realms, fft'd and unfft'd sound kinda stupid.
14:28:51 <fizzie> Time and spectral domains.
14:29:19 <oklopol> i'm only familiar with the technical details of dft, i'm assuming the terms wouldn't quite mix
14:29:22 <fizzie> Or the other way around.
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14:31:08 <oklopol> anyway i guess i was asking what the ideal impulse train looks like in spectral domain, you may have told me already
14:32:29 <oklopol> or is that even well-defined
14:32:57 <fizzie> It should look like an impulse train in the spectral domain too, though with the T0 distance replaced with the corresponding F0. At least that's how it's been talked about.
14:32:58 <oklopol> i guess it might be the limit of some infinite spectrum, but maybe i'll wait for the answer
14:33:18 <oklopol> is there a simple relation?
14:33:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the peaks have a defined value, actually.
14:34:31 <fizzie> Defined height, I mean.
14:34:47 <fizzie> For a really periodic, infinite sequence, I guess the height could be infinite. But speech people are horrible mathematicians and don't care about that sort of stuff.
14:35:36 <fizzie> I'll check the Rabiner book, he's usually quite formal.
14:36:02 <oklopol> you can be precise without being formal
14:36:23 <fizzie> The single good thing about thesis work is that I have (temporarily, from the library) a pile of the five classical speech textbooks for looking up "trivial" common-knowledge sort of things from.
14:36:26 <oklopol> although i'm not sure what the point of saying that was
14:37:31 <oklopol> you don't read speech literature
14:37:57 <fizzie> I haven't justifiticated buying the books myself, no.
14:39:14 <fizzie> Yes, the DTFT of the signal does not theoretically speaking exist; the mathematical treatment of the book uses the "engineering DTFT".
14:40:55 <fizzie> I mean, obviously it doesn't exist, since you have to have $\sum_{-\infty}^\infty \left| x(n) \right| < \infty$ if you want $x(n)$ to have a DTFT.
14:42:21 <oklopol> i don't know what left and right do in tex
14:42:32 <oklopol> just some kinda alignment?
14:42:55 <fizzie> "\left| x(n) \right|" is just a way to say "| x(n) |" so that TeX knows the |s pair up around x(n), and can spacify them sensibly.
14:43:11 <oklopol> also you can't dtft an infinitely occurring pulse?
14:44:03 <oklopol> i completely ignored | as a random tex character, but i now realize i've finally reverse-engineered the basic syntax and that doesn't fit it
14:44:45 <oklopol> actually i should probably ask what a dtft is :P
14:45:54 <fizzie> X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn}, where w wants to be the omega character when it grows up, j's the good old imaginary unit, and e's e.
14:46:54 <fizzie> That's the DTFT; I guess it doesn't converge very often.
14:48:18 <fizzie> Oh, and x(n) is continuous and infinite and all that fluff.
14:49:42 <oklopol> oh, mister omega? in dft omega is a primitive n'th root of unity, but i don't know what it is here
14:52:14 <oklopol> dft being discrete fourier transform, not sure it's obvious you know i mean tht
14:52:55 <fizzie> Yes; the DFT is much nicer for an engineer, since it's just finite-length sequences and everything's so discrete.
14:54:28 <oklopol> X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn} <<< ah misread this as X(n), i now realize that doesn't even make sense
14:55:40 <oklopol> oh it's discrete-time fourier transform; so this is discrete already
14:55:54 <fizzie> The n time step is discrete.
14:56:03 <fizzie> The values of the signal are continuous, though.
14:57:11 <oklopol> okay i think i see how that works now
14:59:50 <fizzie> Anyway, since the DTFT tends to not exist, they use this "engineering DTFT" built out of Fourier series coefficients and Dirac delta functions, so you get infinite energy at the harmonic frequencies but the integral over the spectrum is still finite.
15:00:03 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's a common approach or just a peculiarity of this book.
15:00:12 <fizzie> Signal processing is not my strongest subjects, ironically.
15:00:38 <oklopol> i was gonna say something, but i kinda lost my train of thought
15:01:31 <oklopol> drummer called to say he can't come to play metal with us, because he has to attend church
15:02:33 <oklopol> i'm not even going to ask for details
15:02:46 <fizzie> He is going to BURN the church, maybe.
15:03:18 <oklopol> i'd love to know signal processing, but that doesn't really fit my current degree
15:04:05 <oklopol> actually i'm not sure it's so much church, iltahartaus, however that translates, or whatever that means, at the army
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15:04:55 <oklopol> atheists don't have to attend, but they don't have the evening free either
15:05:01 <oklopol> because that would be unfair
15:05:17 <GregorR-L> wtf conversation did I just step into?
15:05:35 <oklopol> it's about signal processing
15:05:48 <fizzie> Ngraargh. I have this tracking number for this mail package, and it seems they've decided to Screw Up(tm) with it.
15:06:31 <oklopol> i'm tlking about it with fizzie, as you can clearly see
15:06:36 <fizzie> The tracking system says "An irregularity has been observed in the processing of the package, delivery may be delayed".
15:08:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:16:06 <nooga> i wonder if there's a programming system that runs ON iphone
15:16:30 <GregorR-L> I'll bet making it would violate the AUP in some stupid way :P
15:17:26 <nooga> i had cool spreadsheet with usable lisp on my symbian phone
15:17:41 <nooga> but it was pain to write something with phone's keyboard
15:17:47 * GregorR-L wonders why a spreadsheet would have lisp built in ...
15:19:10 <Sgeo> The spreadsheet program is a mode in emacs?
15:19:45 <nooga> i don't know but it was nice
15:20:02 <nooga> formulas were written in lisp
15:21:25 <fizzie> "Python on iPhone actually rather good", Nov 2008, http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2008-November/686098.html
15:22:04 <nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone
15:23:39 <fizzie> What? No. "Install iPhone/Python (examples, the hello world is a PyObjC call into the iPhone API to load and scroll the contacts list in the phone)"
15:24:30 <GregorR-L> "<nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone" this makes NO SENSE
15:26:24 <oklopol> GregorR-L: he means it only runs programs that are written with the iphone in mind
15:26:51 <oklopol> well i was just joking, that makes no sense
15:28:26 <nooga> that python is probably a runtime environment for python programs that runs on iphone
15:28:38 <nooga> what i want is development environment that runs on iphone
15:29:23 <fizzie> Sure, it "just runs Python programs", but you only need a text editor to write those python programs, and it's a development environment.
15:29:53 <nooga> editing text on iphone sucks
15:30:19 <FireFly> Surely someone must have written a BF interpreter for the iPhone?
15:30:20 <nooga> i imagine simpler, perhaps semi-visual editor for building programs
15:30:41 <FireFly> And eight buttons instead of lots means easier to hit them
15:31:02 <nooga> FireFly: something like that, yep
15:31:18 <FireFly> You wouldn't mind that it's BF?
15:31:35 <fizzie> "ibrainfsck: A native iPhone/iPod touch IDE for the brainfuck programming language."
15:32:17 <Sgeo> If a GUI domain is made for PSOX, it would be possible to make a Brainfuck IDE in Brainfuck
15:33:13 <nooga> GregorR-L: add bf debugger and voila
15:33:30 <FireFly> Hm, can't one make use of ANSI escapes with BF?
15:33:50 <GregorR-L> Egg-zactly ... though that just means you'd need a good terminal for iPhone
15:34:19 <nooga> iphone keyboard SUCKS!!! amagad!
15:34:33 <GregorR-L> What?! You mean the commercials LIE?!
15:35:01 <coppro> lack of tactile feedback = bad
15:35:19 <fizzie> Isn't there some sort of vibration-feedback thing?-)
15:35:23 <HackEgo> Also we now have a dedicated press relations guy, if you need anything press related please email chip@openpandora.org and he will do his best to make ... \ [13]BLOG - [14]Forums - [15]Developers - [16]Press area
15:35:43 <fizzie> If even the iPhone keyboard sucks, I wonder how horrible those non-qwerty Android phones everyone seems to be making are.
15:36:27 <FireFly> I wouldn't mind a Dvorak keyboarded cellphone
15:37:59 <fizzie> It's just a term they use for touch-screen-only things.
15:38:45 <FireFly> "various strokes (rather than taps) are used for both shifting case and selecting symbols."
15:39:29 <fizzie> I wonder if there's a Dasher thing for iPhone.
15:40:37 -!- ehird has joined.
15:44:15 <nooga> dasher is even usable
15:45:43 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
15:48:28 <nooga> nooga: dasher is even usable
15:48:48 <nooga> wow, that's probably the first time we agreed
15:48:51 <AnMaster> oh right, I remember seeing that
15:50:51 <FireFly> Hm.. I think I've seen some input system like that in some DS homebrew
15:51:25 -!- olegfink has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:51:43 <FireFly> Homebrew for the Nintendo DS
15:52:58 <nooga> table with consonants, and when you click on choosen one - a pie menu with vowels appears
15:55:28 <nooga> oh, there is a dasher for iphone
15:56:04 <pikhq> "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the NHS would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."
15:56:22 <pikhq> ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Isn't Stephen Hawking British?
15:57:16 <GregorR-L> Quoted-guy was confused by his computer's accent ;)
15:57:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is that quote from
15:57:23 <nooga> but he sits in USA?
15:57:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Article on Reddit.
15:57:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Foiled by DECtalk again!
15:57:52 <nooga> then i was confused by his computer's accent
15:58:07 <GregorR-L> He's at the University of Cambridge.
15:59:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's the name of his text-to-speech system.
15:59:21 <pikhq> It was, obviously, designed by DEC.
15:59:55 <pikhq> IIRC, it's on a small, battery-powered UNIX system in his wheelchair.
16:00:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder
16:01:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Don't recall.
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16:18:37 <fizzie> I misread that as "in some DS hebrew", thought it to be some sort of Hebrew-localized input thing.
16:21:10 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
16:21:27 <AnMaster> wow: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/movies/EyeDasher.4800.mpg
16:21:43 <oklopol> anything that's non-qwerty can't be that bad
16:22:29 -!- Asztal has joined.
16:30:51 <ehird> [16:00] AnMaster: pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder
16:31:29 <ehird> all his interviews are scripted
16:31:37 <ehird> in Q&A sessions he takes >20m to say a line
16:31:54 <ehird> <person> question?
16:32:00 <ehird> <time> *20 minutes*
16:32:08 <ehird> <Stephen Hawking> Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
16:32:48 <pikhq> He is a man of great patience.
16:33:36 <AnMaster> then maybe using dasher would be faster
16:33:48 <ehird> dunno. he's looking to replace it but I think with the same control mechanism
16:34:05 <ehird> i wonder if he can access the unix shell :P
16:34:17 <ehird> "forward-slash.... grep.... forward-slash...."
16:35:25 <AnMaster> ehird, how does using the throat vibrations work...
16:35:35 <AnMaster> I mean, how do you, say, write an "a" using it
16:35:36 <ehird> AnMaster: How do you talk?
16:35:36 -!- coppro has left (?).
16:36:28 <ehird> Beyond that, no clue.
16:38:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> all his interviews are scripted <-- you know what. This made me think of shell script before anything else. As in a shell script controlling dectalk
16:39:29 <ehird> (C) My hovercraft is full of eels
16:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, but since he works with physics it would be "My black hole is full of singularities"
16:41:01 <ehird> no, that just sounds sexual.
16:41:10 <ehird> btw, do you know how to ssh in to a virtualbox vm's sshd?
16:41:19 <ehird> "ssh localhost" doesn't work, do I hafta do some config stuff?
16:41:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you do port forwarding?
16:41:32 <AnMaster> then ssh to the forwarded port
16:41:38 <ehird> umm, why do I need to forward the port
16:41:42 <ehird> it's using my network
16:41:50 <ehird> the vm is running on this box
16:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the virtual network has several modes
16:42:10 <AnMaster> as in, your system acts at NAT for it
16:42:20 <ehird> ok, how would I port these forwards
16:42:24 <AnMaster> see the virtualbox manual for how
16:42:51 <ehird> in the host or child
16:43:15 <AnMaster> this applies to 3.0.4 at least
16:44:12 <AnMaster> right, should be about same modulo OS X host then
16:45:17 * AnMaster waits while ubuntu is updating in the vm
16:45:27 <AnMaster> wish there was a pre-updated cd or something
16:45:45 <AnMaster> could be released as a new iso once / month or so
16:45:45 <ehird> I have an Ubuntu VM to
16:45:47 <ehird> although the server vm
16:45:49 <ehird> why are you making a vm?
16:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well... it is the third ubuntu vm
16:46:01 <AnMaster> ehird, to test out the unstable ubuntu
16:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, one of the other ones is for opengenera
16:46:54 <ehird> you crazy ubuntu-user, you
16:47:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and the "third one" was one I temporarily had on my desktop before installing it on the laptop. In order to test how well it worked (ubuntu that is)
16:47:14 <ehird> my ubuntu server vm is for using k3
16:47:25 <ehird> k programming language version 3
16:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also I haven't tried the server edition
16:47:35 <ehird> supports windows, linux and solaris
16:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/misc/int/; binary-only.
16:47:51 <ehird> if you want a 64-bit linux binary, you can have it for $100,000
16:47:53 <ehird> contact kx systems.
16:47:53 <AnMaster> I bet it is an array language. what with only having a single letter name
16:48:07 <ehird> runs a shitload of financial instititions and the like
16:48:31 <ehird> anyway, I'm serious about the $100,000 thing
16:48:33 <ehird> that's how much it costs
16:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you get your copy then
16:48:50 <ehird> http://nsl.com/misc/int/
16:49:03 <ehird> i'm not even sure those zips are legal, although K4/Q/KDB+ is the new thing nowadays and also nsl.com is closely related to kx
16:49:06 <ehird> iirc the owner has the source code
16:49:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not, though; it's finance/bank sort of thing
16:49:39 <ehird> consultants get like >$200k *entry level* maintaining that stuff
16:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so do you like the language?
16:49:48 <ehird> must be incredibly lucrative for kx
16:49:57 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, k3 also has a very nice functional reactive programming-based GUI system
16:50:22 <ehird> there isn't any alternative
16:50:32 <ehird> it'll come with direct support etc
16:50:44 <AnMaster> for unknown reason the vm locked up
16:50:47 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that with k/kdb code, companies make billions
16:50:52 <AnMaster> and that isn't the unstable one yet
16:51:10 <ehird> alas k4/q cut out the gui and FRP stuff
16:52:10 <ehird> AnMaster: K was made by arthur whitney, btw
16:52:19 <ehird> the author of that crazy pseudo-J interpreter
16:54:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://keiapl.org/rhui/remember.htm#40
16:54:10 <AnMaster> it failed to recover journal after the lockup
16:54:12 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
16:54:23 <AnMaster> and dropped me into a emergency shell
16:55:11 <AnMaster> "root inode is not a directory"
16:55:23 <AnMaster> I think this is more or less permanently fucked
16:55:33 <ehird> fsck it 239482394 times
16:56:14 <AnMaster> "Entry '...' in ??? (11) has deleted/unused inode 2. Clear(y)?"
16:56:36 <AnMaster> "Root inode not allocated. Allocate<y>?"
16:57:06 <AnMaster> "Error: /lost+found not found. Create<y>?"
16:59:17 <ehird> http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k
16:59:21 <ehird> i'm just going to link to this every day
16:59:23 <ehird> it makes me so happy
17:00:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like an esolang
17:00:41 <ehird> i think we need to start defining esolangs by practicality, or we'll just end up classifying everything that isn't C one
17:00:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: that is a program
17:00:52 <ehird> it reads K code, like itself, into English
17:01:01 <AnMaster> now grub complains it can't find root
17:01:13 <GregorR-L> That's not written by hand, is it?
17:01:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yes, K is indeed written by hand.
17:01:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: Note that some of the line noise is actually strings.
17:01:47 <ehird> The s: line without strings: s:;1:;r:;a:;v:
17:01:59 <oklopol> i think that's pretty sexy
17:02:01 <ehird> so just a bunch of variable assignments
17:02:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: K code runs a big fat bunch of financial institutions :)
17:02:22 <GregorR-L> Isn't this intended to make K look good though???
17:02:30 <ehird> kx don't give a shit whether it looks good
17:02:41 <ehird> the companies and programmers use it because it is good
17:02:57 <AnMaster> if it doesn't look good no one would find out it is good
17:03:15 <ehird> because he wrote code for a bank and got a contract with them
17:03:19 <ehird> because it worked excellently
17:03:48 <ehird> anyway, about half of that code is either syntax or the basic operations that you just memorise
17:03:55 <ehird> from eyeballing it
17:04:06 <oklopol> M:`flip`negate`first`reciprocal`where`reverse`upgrade`downgrade`group`shape`enumerate`not`enlist`count`floor`format`unique`atom`value <<< is this a gerund like in j?
17:04:07 <ehird> (I can't read it without dissecting it and looking them all up personally atm)
17:04:11 <ehird> oklopol: it's a list
17:04:23 <ehird> oklopol: `foo is a symbol
17:04:27 <ehird> so it's like 1 2 3
17:04:51 <Deewiant> But why use whitespace if you can avoid it, right?!
17:04:54 <oklopol> i thought that was a subroutine definition :D
17:05:15 <ehird> Deewiant: i stab people who say stupid things. do you want to be stabbed?
17:05:18 <oklopol> Deewiant: well the ` kinda makes it useless
17:05:36 <ehird> nonsense, our eyes can only separate tokens with spaces
17:05:43 <ehird> that's why every human language has spaces
17:05:45 <ehird> just ask the japanese
17:05:47 <Deewiant> I'm more eyeballing stuff like x[i]:x[i:&d&(-1_1,d|
17:06:26 <ehird> newsflash: k code is dense
17:07:02 <ehird> the tokens are separated to my eyes; if you know what the tokens do, you can understand it
17:07:59 <Deewiant> I can understand C expressions written without spaces as well, I just think they're far more easily understood with spaces
17:08:11 <ehird> K code isn't really comparable to that
17:09:45 <pikhq> Japanese is aided by having multiple scripts, and there tends to be a script change at word boundries.
17:09:52 <pikhq> Boundaries, that is.
17:10:09 <ehird> like, it switches every single word?
17:10:34 <Deewiant> Particles and stuff like that that tend to be between words don't come in kanji
17:10:40 <pikhq> ehird: Particles and some Japanese words are written in hiragana, foreign loanwords are written in katakana, and most words of Japanese/Chinese origin are written in kanji.
17:10:49 <pikhq> Particles tend to be written between words.
17:11:09 <ehird> well i knew most of that i think
17:11:21 <pikhq> So, it is *generally* apparent what the word boundaries are.
17:12:48 <ehird> japanese innuendo must be fun
17:12:48 <pikhq> So, Japanese does not use spaces at all. (though there is a character used to seperate words for disambiguation)
17:15:29 <ehird> Let'swriteEnglishwithoutspaces.
17:15:37 <ehird> Pfft,thisistrivialtoread.
17:19:25 <Deewiant> Thereadingfailsmostlywhenitisnotsoclearwherethewordboundaryis:forinstance"anunclearedtheroom".Youprobablydidn'tgetthatrightthefirsttime.
17:19:58 <GregorR-L> Actually I read that as "anun cleared the room" and went "?"
17:20:16 <Deewiant> Equally good a failure, I suppose. :-P
17:21:17 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No, it's like '.', except centered vertically.
17:23:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Regardless,it'snotactuallyveryhardandisalotmoreconcise.Additionally,KisofcoursemuchmoretunedforthisthanEnglish.
17:24:07 <GregorR-L> I find it much, much harder than reading text with spaces, actually.
17:24:17 <Deewiant> Ireallydon'tthinkit'sthatmuchmoreconcise.
17:24:20 <GregorR-L> I have to scan for word boundaries, but when I read normally I barely process the words at a ll.
17:24:36 <pikhq> -f y wnt cncs, y rlly shld jst -mt vwls.
17:24:43 <GregorR-L> And when I write I apparently put spaces at improper places in the middle of w ords anyway.
17:24:56 <ehird> Deewiant:You'rebeingfallaciousanyway;asIsaidEnglishwasn'tevenremotelydesignedforanythingofthissort.Kdoesn'tevenhavemultiple-charactertokens!
17:25:00 <ehird> Deewiant:Omit,probably.
17:25:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm using '-' to represent vowels at the start of a word.
17:25:48 <pikhq> Jst - tny bt -sr t rd, -s -ll.
17:26:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course I don't know K, so I can't judge, only opine.
17:26:26 <ehird> pikhq:yh,thtsnt-ctllhrd-t-ll.
17:26:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: That only works in English because it only has approximately one vowel anyway.
17:26:39 <ehird> pikhq:yh,thtsnt-ctllyhrd-t-ll.
17:26:43 <ehird> almost got unreadable there :P
17:26:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Now that's bullcrap already. :-P
17:27:09 <Deewiant> Took me a few seconds to parse
17:27:16 <ehird> Yah,thatsnatactallyhardatall
17:27:17 <Deewiant> And a few more to figure out the first word
17:27:26 <ehird> Just insert one single appropriate vowel and voila.
17:27:39 <Deewiant> I read "natactally" as "natally" at first.
17:27:52 <ehird> Natactally is my new favourite word.
17:28:02 <pikhq> Deewiant: English spelling is remarkably well-tuned for being used as an abjad.
17:28:27 <ehird> natactally: Counting how many babies are being born at once.
17:28:35 <ehird> Rather, a count of how many.
17:29:18 <Deewiant> English is all ə anyway so you don't have to think
17:30:38 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:38 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/Protocol" TCP
17:30:38 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:38 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/GuestPort" 22
17:30:39 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:39 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/HostPort" 2222
17:30:50 <ehird> Deewiant: talking english with just that would sound weird..
17:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: You expect saner from Sun?
17:31:46 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:31:46 <ehird> ssh: connect to host localhost port 27443: Connection refused
17:31:49 <ehird> Well, that didn't work.
17:32:17 <ehird> Yeah, let's just bruteforce it instead of thinking about how to solve the problem.
17:32:24 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE
17:32:50 <Deewiant> The point is to find out whether an sshd is running on some port or not, which narrows down the problem
17:33:04 <ehird> It obviously isn't forwarding the sshd properly.
17:33:09 <ehird> I'll try restarting the child.
17:34:33 -!- Pthing has joined.
17:34:57 <ehird> now the VM doesn't start
17:35:23 <ehird> wrong network card
17:36:14 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:37:10 <ehird> Logs Ubuntu Server.xml
17:37:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Thereadingfailsmostlywhenitisnotsoclearwherethewordboundaryis:forinstance"anunclearedtheroom".Youprobablydidn'tgetthatrightthefirsttime. <-- "an uncle are d the<wait what?>"
17:38:01 <Deewiant> Oh, that's a third possible reading I didn't even realize
17:38:14 -!- jix_ has joined.
17:38:18 <AnMaster> is that what it is supposed ot be
17:38:25 <Deewiant> Yes, that's the original failure in reading it I was thinking of
17:38:30 <Deewiant> Still not the intended meaning
17:38:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is it *suppoed* to mean then
17:38:47 <ehird> He'll get it in a few year.
17:39:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Feel free to invent your own and shut up about it
17:39:31 <ehird> Feelfreetoinventyourownandshutupaboutit
17:39:50 <ehird> It's actually Feel free toin ventyo urown and shutup abou tit.
17:41:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> Natactally is my new favourite word. <-- does that word actually exist?
17:42:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/HostPort" 2222
17:42:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:42:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> ssh: connect to host localhost port 27443: Connection refused
17:42:46 <ehird> That was an excerpt from the manual.
17:42:50 <ehird> I changed it to test it, duh.
17:42:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> Logs Ubuntu Server.xml <--- what is the xml
17:43:02 <ehird> After the hanging I get [[ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host]]
17:43:03 <ehird> AnMaster: VM info.
17:43:08 <ehird> Ubuntu Server.xml.
17:43:14 <ehird> Ubuntu Server is the VM name.
17:44:20 <AnMaster> S-Expressions would have been better of course but...
17:44:24 <ehird> One, because XML sucks. Two, because it's not just XML, it's XML written by Sun.
17:44:28 <ehird> And no, S-Expressions would be worse.
17:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, point two: right, forgot that
17:44:55 <AnMaster> point 1: No I can't agree. it is no worse than HTML
17:45:03 <ehird> Actually it's not even that good, it's XML written by a program written by Sun
17:45:08 <ehird> AnMaster: That's some praise you got there.
17:45:23 <ehird> "VirtualBox configuration files are no worse than the holocaust!"
17:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, looking at it locally it doesn't seem too bad
17:45:57 <ehird> It wasn't that bad.
17:46:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the diff between ubuntu and ubuntu server
17:47:12 <ehird> Ubuntu Server doesn't have the desktop environment, the install process is longer and has more options
17:47:15 <ehird> (it sets LVM up by default)
17:47:20 <ehird> (and lets you encrypt the drive from in there)
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, the alternative install also lets you setup lvm
17:47:34 <ehird> it installs AppArmor by default, dunno if the desktop version does
17:47:44 <AnMaster> ehird, the desktop installs apparmor
17:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: they are the same thing, I believe.
17:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no. the alternative one always install gui
17:48:13 <ehird> they use the same installer though
17:48:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I used it to install that vm
17:48:32 <ehird> and the server installs more servery sort of things, I think
17:48:34 <AnMaster> which was like. a few hours ago
17:48:40 <ehird> it lets you install an automatic security updater thingy
17:48:42 <ehird> that isn't gui-based
17:48:53 <ehird> really, the server install is just... the server install.
17:48:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. I saw an option for "landscape" or something
17:49:05 <AnMaster> so maybe in the alternative too
17:49:08 <ehird> nah, that's a $$$ proprietary thing by Canonical to manage a whole cluster
17:49:10 <ehird> it's the one in the middle
17:49:19 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:49:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well there was three options
17:49:24 <ehird> that tells you when new updates need to be installed, in ttys
17:49:31 <ehird> and automatically installs security updates
17:49:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the middle
17:49:37 <ehird> but it's only auto for security
17:50:15 <AnMaster> also I couldn't manage to get fsck to fix that ext4 partition
17:50:24 <AnMaster> when it did, grub refused to boot
17:50:47 <AnMaster> since /boot was a separate partition
17:56:02 <ehird> argh i hate mailing list archiver interfaces
17:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, which one in particular
17:56:22 <AnMaster> nabble is one of the worst ones IMO
17:56:26 <ehird> mail-archive.com is pissing me off but really all of them atm
17:56:33 <ehird> nabble is bad in the tree view, but good in the conversation view
17:56:36 <ehird> i don't want to traverse a retarded thread tree every few seconds
17:56:41 <ehird> i just want message, next message, forever
17:56:44 <ehird> in chronological order
17:56:47 <ehird> i.e. what an observer would see
17:56:58 <ehird> organised in to one-level threads
17:57:04 <ehird> which contain all subthreads flattened out
17:57:29 <ehird> only nabble's conversation view does that, and an awful lot of nabble links are tree instead
17:57:46 <ehird> don't care, it's impossible to read large threads with it
17:58:52 <ehird> gmane in blog view is nice too
17:59:10 <ehird> although nabble's conversation view is better since the list just has titles and first post/rest aren't distinguished
18:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, the worst one however is the one used with mailman
18:00:38 <ehird> there's a bunch with the exact same interface
18:00:40 <AnMaster> pipermail or pipemail or something like that
18:00:45 <ehird> but yeah, i hate it
18:01:09 <ehird> i'd prefer a button that lets me enter my email, click "spam me", and it emails me every email in the thread
18:01:15 <ehird> then i'd view it with gmail, which doesn't make me want to tear my hair out
18:01:38 <ehird> alpine does not have conversation view.
18:02:06 <ehird> the only clients that do are Postbox (awful) and sup (only does labels&co locally; I use email from multiple computers)
18:02:19 <ehird> also sup indents to show the hierarchy so i have to scroll right a lot in my terminal.
18:02:39 <ehird> anyway, why use alpine instead of mut
18:02:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why use mutt instead of alpine
18:03:08 <ehird> everyone else uses mutt and it seems more maintainedly.
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone used to use pine once upon a time
18:03:30 <ehird> also [[On 4 August 2008 the University of Washington Alpine team announced[5] that after one more release, incorporating Web Alpine 2.0, they would "shift our effort from direct development into more of a consultation and coordination role to help integrate contributions from the community."]]
18:03:36 <ehird> AnMaster: and you still do
18:03:39 <ehird> alpine is basically pine.
18:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no I switched to alpine
18:03:55 <ehird> same UI, different license :P
18:04:24 <ehird> hmm Linyos Torovoltos uses alpine
18:04:29 <ehird> then again he also uses muemacs
18:04:53 <AnMaster> as in, rather than gnu emacs there
18:04:54 <ehird> (*uEmacs/MicroEMACS :P)
18:05:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Tramp, motherfucker. Do you speak it?
18:05:25 <ehird> What ain't no emacs extension I ever heard of.
18:05:29 <ehird> They connect to servers in what?
18:05:57 <AnMaster> I thought "tramp" was an insult too
18:06:03 <AnMaster> as well as the "motherfucker" there
18:06:17 <ehird> Yes, well, motherfucker is an insult, I'm fairly sure.
18:06:30 <AnMaster> and tramp could be used as one too
18:06:31 <ehird> But that's all absolved when quoting, so there.
18:06:41 <ehird> (Okay, so it wasn't actually "emacs extension".)
18:07:36 <AnMaster> I wonder what I should use the "browser back/forward" buttons for on the laptop
18:07:41 <AnMaster> they are next to the arrow keys
18:07:50 <ehird> Browser back/forward. :P
18:07:55 <ehird> Although I just assign backspace to back.
18:08:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes in browser you could
18:08:03 <ehird> It annoys me that FF-on-linux doesn't by default.
18:08:21 <ehird> AnMaster: emacs modifier keys.
18:08:22 <AnMaster> cycle through tabs in konqueor
18:08:23 <ehird> You can never have too many!
18:08:34 <ehird> I use cmd-shift-[ and cmd-shift-] for that.
18:08:50 <ehird> I could also use cmd-shift-left and cmd-shift-right, but, habits.
18:09:14 <fizzie> urxvt's tab-extension (which I use on the laptop) uses shift-left/shift-right for switching tabs, and shift-up or shift-down (I forget) for opening a new one.
18:09:24 <ehird> http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Gmod_Hurrah/omegle.jpg
18:10:04 <fizzie> The previous keyboard had some media keys ("Media", "Play/Pause", "Mute", "Favorities", "E-Mail", "WWW") which I never did anything with.
18:10:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you click chat, it finds someone else who just clicked it, and you get put together in an IM session
18:10:50 <ehird> hilarity ensues very rarely.
18:11:02 <AnMaster> ehird, was that message really auto generated
18:11:03 <fizzie> You could grok that much from the screenshot.
18:11:08 <ehird> No, it's called a joke.
18:11:18 <ehird> [[You: [Omegle is legally required to inform you that you are currently chatting with a registered sex offender.]
18:11:18 <ehird> Stranger: 16 f scotland, you?]]
18:11:19 <ehird> ↑ Like AnMaster, this person apparently cannot read.
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18:12:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't have any laptop right?
18:12:57 <ehird> Not this second, no. Soon, yes.
18:13:07 <AnMaster> ehird, along with your linux system?
18:13:09 <ehird> (I decided that I don't care about a bunch of power and am going to get a notebook instead.)
18:13:40 <ehird> [18:12] AnMaster: ehird, you don't have any laptop right?
18:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't recommend Lenvo Thinkpad R500
18:14:01 <AnMaster> ehird, reason I wouldn't recommend it is: hardware too new
18:14:20 <ehird> i could get a different wireless card
18:14:24 <ehird> but the R series is far too heavy anyway
18:14:28 <ehird> I'm considering the X series
18:14:40 <AnMaster> ehird, glossy screens there right
18:14:47 <AnMaster> also how is the R series a bit heavy
18:14:49 <ehird> either that or a macbook pro because they have the awesome multitouch trackpad
18:14:53 <ehird> AnMaster: nope, all thinkpads are matte
18:15:02 <ehird> also, I want to take this around everywhere
18:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, these ones are kind of multi-touch?
18:15:12 <AnMaster> I don't know if it officially is
18:15:20 <ehird> the MBP multitouch ones are glass, though
18:15:22 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not multitouch
18:15:25 <ehird> multitouch is multiple fingers
18:15:34 <ehird> it's pretty much an iphone without a screen
18:15:36 <AnMaster> ehird, never used an iphone XD
18:15:47 <ehird> AnMaster: you can pinch your fingers together and separate them to zoom in/out
18:15:56 <ehird> rotate by rotating two fingers a little
18:16:05 <ehird> on the MBP if you swipe four fingers up it does expose
18:16:07 <AnMaster> cool. like those hard to get right mouse gestures
18:16:21 <ehird> spoken like someone who's never used an iphone
18:16:31 <ehird> try getting smaller hands first
18:16:49 <ehird> anyway, 2kg is about my max
18:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I plan to use a backpack for the computer
18:17:16 <ehird> the X200 seems quite good; 12.1" LED display, non-low-volate core 2 and w/ the 9 cell battery, 10hrs battery life
18:17:44 <ehird> AnMaster: consider sitting at a table outside and deciding to go somewhere without a gigantic backpack
18:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, however. a 21" laptop would be awesome.
18:17:46 -!- pikhq__ has joined.
18:17:48 <ehird> i'd like to be able to just carry it
18:18:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make it as think as a macbook air AND fit a CD in it
18:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: there are 20" laptops
18:18:15 <ehird> not nearly as light, though :P
18:18:21 <ehird> the MBA is 3 pounds / 1.36kg
18:18:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that in litres per ounce
18:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-HDX949NR-20-inch-Centrino-Processor/dp/B001BAZY7W 20 inch laptop
18:19:17 <pikhq__> "What, you want to both browse the web *and* be on IRC?"
18:19:22 <ehird> AnMaster: also, 1.36kg = 45.98 fluid ounces
18:19:40 <ehird> so, fluid laptops!
18:19:53 <ehird> it could be like a bath
18:20:12 <ehird> inverse milliseconds per ... squared seconds?
18:20:19 <ehird> like, if time is the fourth dimension
18:20:22 <ehird> squared seconds use the fifth time dimension too
18:20:33 <ehird> the other two are for time cube.
18:20:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was like "frequency acceleration"
18:21:11 * AnMaster actually physically loled at ehird's interpretation
18:22:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what would frequency accleration actually be
18:22:18 <ehird> the X200's screen is nice
18:22:24 <ehird> matte but LED-backlit, and 1280x800 in 12.1"
18:22:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean that it's nice for its size.
18:22:45 <AnMaster> THEN YOU COULD FIT YOUR FLOPPY DRIVE IN IT TOO
18:22:50 <ehird> usually only glossy screens have LED backlights
18:23:03 <ehird> and 1280x800 is 13.3" on mac laptops, which have high ppi
18:23:08 <AnMaster> oh and like dual CPU and dual harddrives
18:23:10 <ehird> so those pixels in 12.1" is great
18:23:21 <ehird> AnMaster: dual harddrives are easy
18:23:23 <ehird> tons of products do it
18:23:25 <ehird> just replace the optical drive
18:23:29 <ehird> there's tons of third party things for it
18:23:37 <ehird> mostly used for ssd+HD configs
18:23:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but I meant with cd, floppy, dual harddrives and a SSD
18:24:05 <ehird> incidentally, there is a laptop with a 512GB (!) SSD
18:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, make that the big size of floppies
18:24:17 <ehird> the toshiba portégé R600
18:24:25 <ehird> http://laptops.toshiba.com/laptops/portege/R600; has a 1.4ghz low-voltage processor though
18:24:33 <ehird> which is a shame because everything else is amazing
18:24:42 <AnMaster> 1.4ghz low-voltage processor and 512GB SSD?
18:24:54 <ehird> ultraportable with 10 hours battery life
18:24:55 <AnMaster> performance is completely unmatched
18:25:09 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway 25,708 SEK
18:25:16 <ehird> it's less than 1kg
18:25:31 <ehird> the display is LED-backlit and can absorb natural light for backlight in the day
18:25:36 <ehird> the battery lasts 10 hours
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18:25:47 <ehird> AnMaster: hawdy haw haw
18:25:54 <AnMaster> (hint: Swedish use , for decimal separator)
18:26:08 <AnMaster> rather: it is fucking expensive
18:26:21 <ehird> it is and it isn't
18:26:42 <AnMaster> more than twice of my what thinkpad cost
18:27:38 <ehird> there is not a single other laptop that packs an LED-backlit 12" display that can absorb natural light so it works great in the daylight, WiMAX, a very fast 512GB SSD, an optical drive (!) and 10 full hours of battery life in less than one kilogram
18:28:09 <ehird> i'm surprised it doesn't cost more, really
18:28:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the R500 is the same with a little slower processor, a gig less ram and a 128gb ssd
18:28:46 <ehird> and it costs 19090 sek
18:29:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: the R500 is the same with a little slower processor, a gig less ram and a 128gb ssd <-- you confused me at first
18:29:27 <AnMaster> both Lenovo and Toshiba use "R500"
18:30:14 <AnMaster> ehird, btw there is a really silly driver needed for my laptop
18:30:23 <ehird> it's a shame that afaik lenovo and toshiba are the only ones who make matte laptops (apart from uberbulky ones etc)
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18:31:49 <AnMaster> http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0710.0/0374.html
18:32:12 <AnMaster> + * This is a conceptually ridiculous driver, but it is required by the way
18:32:12 <AnMaster> + * the Ricoh multi-function R5C832 works.
18:34:00 <AnMaster> + * The relevant registers live on the firewire function, so this is unavoidably
18:34:05 <ehird> "I've only this moment considered a water-soluble Jesus.
18:34:06 <ehird> There's got to be a market for such a thing."
18:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm all macs have firewire right
18:34:19 <ehird> apple invented it iirc, so yes.
18:34:37 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from
18:35:20 <ehird> the post is a joke.
18:35:27 <ehird> he just runs babble programs.
18:35:38 <AnMaster> also going to play warzone2100 (on my desktop, due to bug mentioned yesteday I can't on my laptop)
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18:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: losethos should port his OS to "plain English"
18:37:14 <ehird> oh what the fuck, the thinkpad X200 doesn't have a touchpad?
18:37:19 <AnMaster> ehird, did you really laugh out loud?
18:37:21 <ehird> tell me it's not true
18:37:58 <ehird> hmm lenovo site seems to show the x200 as having one
18:38:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> oh what the fuck, the thinkpad X200 doesn't have a touchpad? <-- it is possible
18:38:06 <pikhq> Y'know, I "love" how Plain English is almost unstructured programming...
18:38:14 <ehird> it has one, though
18:38:21 <ehird> unless the "X series" image doesn't reflect it
18:38:24 <ehird> in which case fuck that shit
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well. Older thinkpads didn't have them
18:38:34 <ehird> on the x200 order page
18:38:41 <ehird> omg, it has no touchpad
18:38:47 <ehird> well to hell with that
18:39:01 <ehird> yah, and those fucked up top buttons
18:39:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I find it easier to work with trackpoint than mousepad
18:39:19 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg one on the right
18:39:23 <ehird> AnMaster: often, yes
18:39:29 <ehird> but it's Nice To Have
18:39:43 <AnMaster> means I can easily use the middle one
18:40:08 <ehird> click both at the same time
18:40:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I want that as a separate action
18:40:25 <ehird> AnMaster: http://images.apple.com/macbookpro/images/overview-gallery2-20090608.png see anything wrong with this image?
18:40:48 <ehird> the whole trackpad is a single button
18:40:53 <ehird> and you right click by pressing it with two fingers
18:41:01 <ehird> or by clicking in the bottom-right if you configure it
18:41:06 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, pressing it down.
18:41:13 <ehird> it's an actual button
18:41:15 <AnMaster> I always end up tapping by mistake
18:41:50 <ehird> not yet, but i've seen videos and I haven't seen one opinion that wasn't unanimously positive about it
18:41:59 <ehird> besides, I have an iphone
18:42:05 <ehird> it's just an iphone button.
18:42:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you would end up moving the mouse slightly every time you click
18:42:19 <AnMaster> what if you want the pointer absolutely still
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18:42:26 <ehird> take your hand off
18:42:27 <AnMaster> like if precision image editing
18:42:30 <ehird> besides, it doesn't move
18:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you click it with your hand off
18:42:36 <ehird> i know that for a fact since I have an iphone
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18:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, also what sort of design did apple go through since ibook original...
18:43:33 <ehird> trackpad, one button
18:43:58 <AnMaster> blue plastic -> other colours too -> metal -> white plastic -> metal again
18:44:10 <ehird> the powerbook was concurrent with ibook
18:44:20 <ehird> it was black plastic then metal
18:44:25 <ehird> now it's metal + black glass/plastic
18:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: also, the lack of a button on the new MBPs is great beacuse it means the trackpad is bigger too
18:44:48 <ehird> so no pick up finger, put it back
18:45:18 <ehird> because you reached the edge of your anemic-sized trackpad?
18:45:35 <AnMaster> and use your index finger for "tracking"
18:45:37 <ehird> the MBP's is the biggest trackpad
18:45:51 <ehird> well apart from the full-width olpc thing
18:45:57 <ehird> but that's not the same thing all the way through
18:46:20 <ehird> they also planned to start using windows
18:46:30 <ehird> new OLPC is just a monkey-on-crackfest, so I won't consider it
18:46:34 <ehird> that's their plan atm
18:46:49 <ehird> it uses OpenFirmware
18:47:05 <ehird> OpenFirmware = Forth = <3
18:47:25 <ehird> moving to EFI is among the stupidest things apple has ever done :-(
18:47:30 <AnMaster> bluetooth works perfectly under linux
18:47:41 <AnMaster> between the computer and my nokia phone at least
18:47:47 <AnMaster> which I wouldn't have expected
18:47:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:48:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you have a phone that does bluetooth? I was hoping one of those bog-standard greyscale nokias
18:48:08 <ehird> with monotone ringtones
18:48:46 <ehird> I hereby announce the elliottphone
18:48:53 <ehird> It is merely one button
18:48:58 <ehird> When you hold it, it listens
18:49:01 <ehird> then calls the contact
18:49:04 <ehird> (tons of phones have that)
18:49:07 <ehird> Pressing it in a call hangs up.
18:49:13 <ehird> It rings and speaks who's calling when you get a call.
18:49:20 <ehird> There is no screen or keypad.
18:49:22 <AnMaster> it tends to open games instead
18:49:25 <ehird> it's better on higher-end phones
18:49:28 <fizzie> What I wouldn't have expected is that in Ubuntu (okay, so I should have expected it) you can stick in one of those GPRS/3G/UMTS/HSDPA USB modems, and it pops up a three-or-so step wizard (which is pretty much "we guessed your country, now select your ISP") and after that there's a "mobile broadband" or some such similar category in the network manager tray-thing.
18:49:39 <ehird> Also, you add contacts by tapping the button while not in a call.
18:49:50 <ehird> You then speak a name, tap it again, and speak the number...but...carefully.
18:49:54 <ehird> Tap it once more and you're done!
18:49:57 <ehird> It's revolutionary.
18:50:25 <ehird> i wonder if mobile broadband thingies do overseas
18:50:42 <ehird> be nice to hop on a wifi'd up plane to somewhere and never lose internet connection :D
18:51:04 <AnMaster> most of the hardware just work
18:51:09 <ehird> windows rarely just works
18:51:13 <fizzie> At least for telephone operators here it means the "roaming GPRS" ten million zorkmids for a kilobyte charges.
18:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well, drivers usually exist for it
18:52:05 <ehird> AnMaster: You play nethack, don't you?
18:52:40 <fizzie> Though for many countries, sending the shortest countable number of bytes (10k or 25k or such is common) is still cheaper than sending a single SMS; we used that from the Italy vacation to send daily "still alive" email reports to a whole pile of relatives at once, instead of separate SMS messages.
18:53:07 <AnMaster> how comes fantasy money is always very inflated or the opposite
18:53:18 <ehird> AnMaster: because gold is abundant
18:53:29 <AnMaster> or 5000 <currency> is nearly nothing
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18:53:38 <fizzie> One just has to be careful to pick the operator which counts at 10k or some small granularity, instead of a "minimum charge for 1 megabyte" thing.
18:53:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't answer *both* cases
18:53:52 <pikhq_> My damned Internet connection is doing round-robin with its IRC connections.
18:53:54 <Deewiant> Because fantasy games tend to be either blatantly realistic or blatantly unrealistic
18:53:55 <ehird> i think that mmorpg i used to play had a reasonable currency
18:54:08 <ehird> don't recall, so long ago
18:54:16 <ehird> although i think it had one of those exchange-real-cash-for-fake-cash thingies
18:54:19 <ehird> so i guess that kept it stable
18:54:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wouldn't call either of those realistic. Rather unrealistic in different directions
18:54:38 <ehird> it's a very ballsy business plan
18:54:40 <Deewiant> If <currency> is gold then the former is realistic
18:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but it usually isn't
18:54:55 <Deewiant> Hell, even if it's silver it is
18:55:26 <AnMaster> there it is always 60000 for a space ship upgrade or so
18:55:33 <Deewiant> EVE Online has a sensible economy
18:55:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I haven't played MMORPGs
18:55:48 <Deewiant> There that is millions, possibly billions
18:55:55 <Deewiant> If you want a good ship, anyway
18:56:00 <fizzie> Here's a bit of trivia from Wikipedia: it's been estimated (in 2006) that all the gold ever mined up totals to a cube with 20.2 metre sides.
18:56:22 <ehird> isn't EVE Online ridiculously huge?
18:56:26 <fizzie> Not more; 158000 tonnes.
18:56:33 <Deewiant> 8000 cubic metres isn't enough? :-P
18:56:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Depends on what you mean by "huge"
18:56:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's just the cubification; I mean, it's smaller than this building.
18:57:01 <ehird> 20 meters isn't a lot.
18:57:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure anyone has bothered to do a similar estimate for iron.
18:57:33 <Deewiant> Hell, 1*1*20 metres of gold seems like a shit-tonne
18:57:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> isn't EVE Online ridiculously huge? <-- in star systems wikipedia claims 7500 of them. IIRC vegastrike has astronomical data entered for something like 20 000 star systems
18:58:33 <Deewiant> But how fast is travel in vega strike
18:59:06 <fizzie> But 1544 million metric tons of iron ore were produced in 2005 alone, so I'm guessing there's a whole lot more iron than gold. (No, really!?)
18:59:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? semi-realistic. Unless you active the SPEC drive (for fast in system travel) or use a jump point (for inter-system travel, works by wormholes)
18:59:43 <Deewiant> "Semi-realistic" means nothing if you never use that speed for travel :-P
18:59:44 -!- pikhq__ has joined.
18:59:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How long does it take to go through, say, 20 systems?
19:00:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, SPEC drive doesn't work close to gravity wells
19:00:16 <AnMaster> so you need to slow down when approaching planets and space stations and such
19:00:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, if you don't need to refuel during the way... maybe 15-30 minutes?
19:00:47 <ehird> isn't eve online like, populated?
19:00:49 <ehird> in all those systems
19:00:58 <Deewiant> In EVE that'd be around an hour
19:01:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not too much of a difference then
19:01:22 <Deewiant> Given a small, fast ship, that is :-P
19:01:25 <ehird> in real life that'd be about a few million years!
19:01:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes I was assuming that too
19:01:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with a capship it would take hours.
19:02:12 <AnMaster> mostly due to gravity wells around planets and jump points
19:02:19 <Deewiant> ehird: In real life we don't have hyperdrives and whatnot so it's different
19:02:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you were to use the SPEC drive only, (haven't tried, but theoretically possible, if you can aim properly) to travel between systems, I guess days
19:03:14 <ehird> Deewiant: But hyperdrives aren't realistic!
19:03:25 <AnMaster> here I mean something like Sol -> Alpha Centauri (sp?)
19:03:38 <ehird> We're talking about realisticness.
19:03:56 <ehird> 03:15:33 <oerjan> indeed, it is quite conceivable that he didn't manage to finish it ;D
19:04:05 <GregorR-L> Nothing in physics prevents you from getting from any location in the universe to any other location in the universe in an arbitrarily short amount of time from your perspective.
19:04:15 <ehird> 03:24:41 <nooga> longer computer will say you be able to hear the la la la la, no i can't
19:04:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: Except reality :p
19:04:32 <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:36 <ehird> `addquote <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:37 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:59 <GregorR-L> Well, if you accelerate too rapidly you'll go *splat*, so yes, there are issues :P
19:06:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, there are ways around that
19:06:42 <GregorR-L> The single most important piece of technology to not exist in any form :P
19:06:43 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Ones that really work, And exist today
19:06:43 -!- pikhq___ has joined.
19:06:54 <AnMaster> called fluid immersion + fluid breathing
19:06:56 <Deewiant> Inertial nullifiers would be cool
19:06:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:07:16 <AnMaster> raises the limit from 9 G to 25 G or something like that
19:07:28 <ehird> Oh, 25 G, that's nice.
19:07:34 <ehird> Let's go cross the star syst—
19:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well that still takes time
19:07:43 <ehird> —turns out it's a bit more than 25 G
19:08:10 <GregorR-L> ehird: ... are you ... arguing that the distance across the star system is more than 25 ... G?
19:08:30 <pikhq___> ehird: Clearly he measures everything in terms of acceleration.
19:08:34 <ehird> I never argue, GregorR-L. :P
19:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, could you cut down on it
19:09:24 <ehird> Your MOM's sanity.
19:10:03 <GregorR-L> `wolfram distance to Alpha Centauri
19:10:09 <HackEgo> distance to Alpha Centauri \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Rigel Kentaurus A \ Current result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ 4.39 ly light years \ Unit conversions: \ \ 1.346 pc parsecs \ Comparisons as distance: \ \ distance to Proxima Centauri \ \ 4.2 ly \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 11,
19:10:24 <HackEgo> 4.39 lightyears = 4.15317197 10^16 meters
19:10:53 <HackEgo> 1 light year=5865696000000 miles 1 light minute=11176920 miles ... Proxima Centauri, the closest star to Earth other than the Sun, is 4.2 light years away. ...
19:10:54 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Andromenda galaxy
19:11:01 <HackEgo> distance to the Andromenda galaxy \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ M 31 \ \ distance from Earth \ \ Current result: \ \ 788.3 kpc kiloparsecs \ Unit conversions: \ \ 0.7883 Mpc megaparsecs \ Comparison as distance: \ \ 1.1 Andromeda galaxy distance \ \ 725 kpc \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August
19:11:12 <HackEgo> 41 531 719 700 000 000 / 2 = 2.07658598 10^16
19:11:13 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Andromenda galaxy in meters
19:11:15 <HackEgo> If the nearest star is 4.2 light years away how far is the star? 4.2 light years . It is a distance. 4.2ly = 4.0*1016 meters. ...
19:11:21 <HackEgo> distance to the Andromenda galaxy in meters \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert M 31 \ Result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ to meters \ \ 2.433 1022 meters \ History: \ \ prune`result \ Additional conversions: 19 \ \ 1.512 10 miles \ \ Comparison as distance: \ \ 1.1 Andromeda galaxy distance \ \ 725 kpc \ \ Generated
19:11:34 <ehird> Only two and a half meters!
19:11:40 <GregorR-L> 25*9.80665*x^2 = 20765859800000000
19:12:01 <GregorR-L> Wait, wtf, why doesn't that agree?
19:12:24 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Proxima Centauri
19:12:28 <GregorR-L> 25*9.80665*x^2 = 20765859800000000
19:12:30 <ehird> http://futurestack.com/jump/aebugs/ ← <3
19:12:31 <HackEgo> distance to the Proxima Centauri \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Proxima Centauri \ Current result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ 4.218 ly light years \ Unit conversions: \ \ 1.293 pc parsecs \ Comparisons as distance: \ \ 0.999 distance to Proxima Centauri \ \ 4.223 ly \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
19:13:07 <GregorR-L> Only 213 days to Alpha Centauri at 25G acceleration then deceleration.
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19:13:40 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, does that include relativistic effects
19:13:40 <GregorR-L> Mind you, that would be millions of years of Earth time, but screw Earth.
19:14:01 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, if so, how did you calculate it
19:14:07 <Deewiant> So what, you're accelerating for 106.5 days then decelerating?
19:14:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, what is the top speed you reach
19:14:45 <ehird> Erm, faster than light, no?
19:15:15 <ehird> Silly is not a verb.
19:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you used it as one above
19:15:30 <HackEgo> 106.5 days = 9 201 600 seconds
19:15:33 <GregorR-L> Things will dilate such that you're not going faster than light, but if you view time from your perspective and space from Earth's perspective, yes, you're going faster than light.
19:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: that just wrong grammer, but okay.
19:15:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: Fail :D
19:16:05 <ehird> Youuuuuu're stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid
19:16:19 <HackEgo> 25 * 9.80665 * 9 201 600 = 2 255 921 766
19:16:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:17:31 <HackEgo> 2 255 921 766 / 299 792 458 = 7.52494503
19:18:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what did you measure
19:18:29 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, 7.5x SUCKS!
19:18:39 <Deewiant> 106.5 days of acceleration at 25G and the resulting top speed
19:18:49 <Deewiant> At least, that's what I tried to calculate
19:18:58 <ehird> Looking out the window would be fun
19:20:35 <ehird> 07:16:06 <nooga> i wonder if there's a programming system that runs ON iphone
19:20:35 <ehird> 07:16:30 <GregorR-L> I'll bet making it would violate the AUP in some stupid way :P
19:20:40 <ehird> It's against the app store TOS
19:20:46 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:20:50 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:20:57 <ehird> But jailbreaking. Or, you can do whatever the fuck you want with the SDK as long as you don't use the app store.
19:21:01 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Success).
19:21:18 <ehird> 07:22:04 <nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone
19:21:18 <ehird> 07:22:07 <nooga> not on iphone
19:22:10 <ehird> 07:34:19 <nooga> iphone keyboard SUCKS!!! amagad!
19:22:11 <ehird> 07:34:33 <GregorR-L> What?! You mean the commercials LIE?!
19:22:11 <ehird> 07:34:50 <coppro> yes, yes it does
19:22:11 <ehird> It's nowhere near as bad as it sounds, actually. I can type like 50wpm just fine.
19:22:12 <GregorR-L> Is there any supported non-appstore way to distribute iPhone applications?
19:22:17 <ehird> Beats a BlackBerry keyboard.
19:22:28 <ehird> 07:35:19 <fizzie> Isn't there some sort of vibration-feedback thing?-)
19:22:29 <ehird> No. That wouldn't help, anyway.
19:22:38 <GregorR-L> Is it even possible to give away programs for free?
19:22:44 <fizzie> There's one in the HTC Hero, and they say it helps.
19:22:52 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 106.5 days of acceleration at 25G and the resulting top speed <-- clearly impossible
19:23:08 <fizzie> It's not a real keypress anyway, I can guess that much.
19:23:13 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: That is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
19:23:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so what would it actually take to a human accelerating at 25G without going faster than light
19:23:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course I calculated it Newtonially
19:23:43 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Accelerating at 25G for any amount of time.
19:23:47 <Deewiant> It would take applying relativism
19:24:00 <AnMaster> you don't accelerate as quickly near the end
19:24:26 <AnMaster> I never managed to get my head around it
19:24:48 <Deewiant> I find relativity much simpler than, say, electrostatics/dynamics
19:24:52 <GregorR-L> The #1 thing people don't understand about relativity is that the speed of light is not a boundary, and it does not prevent you from going arbitrarily great distances in arbitrarily short amounts of time /from your perspective/.
19:25:08 <GregorR-L> Or rather, it's not a boundary in the hard-and-fast sense, it's an asymptote.
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19:25:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: I don't know why that is, but it makes me happy anyway.
19:25:30 <Slereah_> Deewiant : Only 'cause you don't know shit about it
19:25:35 <ehird> Let's go at ten bajillion times the speed of light!
19:25:46 <Slereah_> Real relativity is like shitload of horrible
19:25:51 <Deewiant> Slereah_: About relativity? s/relativity/special relativity/, sorry
19:25:56 <ehird> 07:39:29 <fizzie> I wonder if there's a Dasher thing for iPhone.
19:25:56 <ehird> not really suited I don't think
19:26:15 <Slereah_> It has like lorentz gauges and tensorial calculus and shit
19:27:20 <Deewiant> Yes, well, if you want to do stuff with the space-time geometry then sure
19:27:51 <Slereah_> Not really, this is all flat space time
19:28:54 <ehird> So Slereah_, how will the faster-than-light LHC accelerator interact with the relative gravitational space-time warp's quantum effects?
19:29:01 <Deewiant> Yes, it's a flat Minkowski space, but you don't have to mess with that stuff unless you want to :-P
19:29:10 <ehird> *Slereah_ explodes*
19:29:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:30:28 <Deewiant> It does get into weird stuff when you start looking at worldlines and hyperplanes and whatever but I don't think that's an essential part of special relativity...
19:31:09 <ehird> http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/ssh_port_forwarding/ // openbsd.org has a security hole
19:31:18 <ehird> Take that, AnMaster!
19:32:19 <ehird> But openbsd.org do.
19:32:24 <ehird> HOW CAN YOU TRUST THEM ANY MORE
19:32:52 <AnMaster> "in OpenBSD in 1999. Ok, so it wasn't in the security-focused OS, but just in their infrastructure. And it wasn't a very bad hole; it just allowed doing things like IRCing with a openbsd.org address."
19:32:56 <ehird> AnMaster: "So I was really suprised when, checking as I write this article, I found the same hole still exists in one of their main CVS servers, as well as more than one of their CVS mirrors"
19:33:18 <ehird> AnMaster has eyes that can only read two sentences at a time; after that, his brain turns off and flashes an error code: "tl;dr".
19:33:40 <ehird> Maybe you just think you do.
19:35:48 <pikhq_> Am I the only person who willingly reads long things online?
19:35:56 <ehird> pikhq_: No, I do too.
19:36:01 <ehird> I even did so with a CRT.
19:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, just a bad default for certain services
19:36:46 <ehird> <person on Fox News> Why put [the word] god in your [atheist] ad? You don't believe in god.
19:36:53 <ehird> The ad in question: "You can be good without god".
19:37:26 <ehird> ("Mr. Binder, as an atheist you do not believe in god, yet you sued to put god in your ad. Why?")
19:37:31 <pikhq_> ehird: I'd hesitate to just call that an atheist ad. That seems like an ad in favor of humanism. ;)
19:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Rather?!
19:37:49 <ehird> pikhq_: From an atheist group. But it's an incredibly common thing for religious people to say -
19:38:01 <ehird> "how can atheists be good? They don't have any sky-dictator to give them an ineffable code of morals."
19:38:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I always use "rather", I avoid extreme judgements
19:38:11 <ehird> AnMaster: HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED FOX NEWS
19:38:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:38:22 <pikhq_> ehird: ... How, exactly, do they rationalise that with people of different religions being good?
19:38:31 <pikhq_> Or, for that matter, atheists being good?
19:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, only some short bits on youtube
19:38:52 <ehird> pikhq_: If their moral code is identical to the person in questions', then either luck or they actually got the same moral code, they just didn't realise it.
19:38:58 <ehird> If not, then they're not moral and any such code isn't from a real god.
19:39:07 <pikhq_> Or, for that matter, people of their religion being immoral?
19:39:19 <ehird> (Seconds before this stupidity: "Join us now for a fair and balanced debate.")
19:39:27 <ehird> (Fair and balanced between sane and fucking batshit.)
19:40:06 <AnMaster> yep it is rather stupid and insane indeed
19:40:14 <pikhq_> "Fair and balanced". ... Yes, because having an apeshit crazy Republican and a token (conservative) Democrat is fair and balanced.
19:40:22 <pikhq_> And because those are the only two positions possible.
19:40:27 <ehird> No, the other person in this case is the atheist in question. :P
19:40:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
19:40:49 <ehird> Also, "(conservative) Democrat" is redundant.
19:41:12 <pikhq> ehird: I mean that as "conservative for a Democrat".
19:41:19 <ehird> So, a Republican. :P
19:41:46 <ehird> I read an article in the New York Times saying that Sean Hannity is actually a liberal trying to make conservatives look stupid
19:41:57 <AnMaster> how can there be so few political parties in US
19:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Voting system.
19:42:11 <ehird> Corporate alliances.
19:42:20 <ehird> (evidence for Hannity being a liberal included "he uses attractive women for his democrats and old curmudgeons for his republicans")
19:42:51 <AnMaster> in the Swedish parliament there are seven political parties
19:43:04 <ehird> You don't use winner-takes-all, do you?
19:43:36 <pikhq> They have proportional representation.
19:43:39 <AnMaster> why doesn't US change from winner-takes-all?
19:43:42 <ehird> Uhh, I don't actually know much at all about our system. I know that the vast majority is labour vs conservatives.
19:43:50 <ehird> Both of whom are right-wing in comparison to Sweden and left-wing in comparison to the US
19:43:52 <AnMaster> I mean, often the democrats would win on it
19:43:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, who would vote it in?
19:43:59 <ehird> Not the Republicans, not the Democrats.
19:44:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because that would require politicians in office to agree on it.
19:44:03 <ehird> They're almost identical, as parties.
19:44:13 <ehird> And both have lots and lots of corporate backing.
19:44:30 <pikhq> Note that they rig the system to prevent people from being voted out.
19:44:37 <pikhq> (see gerrymandering)
19:44:55 <ehird> It's funny how right-wing the UK is, and yet nobody in parliament even THINKS of suggesting making our healthcare system any less "socialised" than it is.
19:45:03 <ehird> The US is batshit.
19:45:31 <pikhq> ehird: In other news, *China* is trying to create a universal healthcare system.
19:45:45 <pikhq> So... In 10 years, China is going to have a better healthcare system than we do.
19:46:05 <ehird> North Korea has no healthcare system! If you use ideology Juche Idea illness is imaginary!
19:46:07 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Hush; China's not much of a communist state these days.
19:46:18 <ehird> HOORAY FOR KIM IL-SUNG!
19:46:22 <ehird> HOORAY FOR KIM JONG-IL!
19:46:26 <ehird> HOORAY FOR THE PARTY!
19:46:28 <pikhq> It's some bizarre hybrid between communism and laissez faire capitalism.
19:46:29 <ehird> HOORAY FOR NORTH KOREA!
19:46:47 <pikhq> With lots of corruption.
19:46:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "free" market
19:47:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Corporations there have very little to no regulation.
19:47:19 <pikhq> That's called "laissez faire".
19:47:47 <ehird> ˌleɪseɪˈfɛər in English.
19:47:57 <ehird> [lɛsefɛʁ] in French.
19:48:11 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Laissez-faire.ogg french
19:48:15 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/En-us-laissez-faire.ogg english
19:50:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:51:05 * ehird devises an evil ssh-to-vm system
19:51:26 <ehird> Run an ssh shell in the background (not attached to a terminal or anything).
19:51:35 <ehird> When running the user program, resume it and start K.
19:51:40 <ehird> When the user program terminates, exit K.
19:51:46 <ehird> Voila! Is instant!
19:51:46 <oerjan> gah, internet _still_ molasses :(
19:52:11 <ehird> It can even do X forwarding for the GUI.
19:52:19 <ehird> or rather, will be able to
19:52:37 <AnMaster> ehird, why not just a shell script that sshs
19:52:48 <AnMaster> why the idle in background bit
19:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: connecting and authenticating takes time
19:52:58 <ehird> direct k3 starts up instantly
19:52:59 <AnMaster> ehird, use ssh keys + ssh-agent to avoid having to enter key
19:53:11 <ehird> it'll be unpassworded
19:53:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, takes like 0.03 seconds to ssh
19:53:19 <ehird> I might do that if it's fast enough
19:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird depends on how fast computer you have
19:53:36 <ehird> 0.03 is quite a lot
19:53:43 <ehird> though indeed not much
19:54:05 <AnMaster> and that is from a sempron to a pentium 3
19:54:37 <ehird> after that I need to mount / as /osx in the vm
19:54:43 <ehird> and make sure that it cds to /osx/host-path before starting k3
19:54:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that means calling vboxmanage
19:55:06 <ehird> no, it means using the gui :)
19:55:24 <ehird> uhh i just do it once
19:55:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes shared folders is what I meant
19:55:26 <ehird> and it's mounted on bootup
19:55:42 <ehird> since i have virtualbox tools installed
19:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh thought you meant mount <current path as /osx>
19:55:52 <ehird> sorry, "guest additions"
19:56:01 <ehird> /osx/Users/ehird/Code/kfun or whatever
19:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, so now to infect the vm
19:56:32 <ehird> I trust it about as much as my host
19:56:46 <ehird> backslash paths, X11 forwarding
19:56:56 <ehird> I did consider using wine
19:56:58 <ehird> but, backslash paths
19:57:01 <ehird> besides, linux just maps better
19:57:18 <ehird> oh that's why my ssh port forwarding didn't work I think
19:57:28 <ehird> maybe "Port 22 27443" would do it
19:58:02 <ehird> guess it translates before then
19:58:32 <AnMaster> ehird, try the pcap variant to make it public along your own computer on the lan
19:58:49 <ehird> nah, I'd prefer to do it the Right Way
19:59:24 <ehird> 27443 is, incidentally, "k3"
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, why?
20:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember having some issues with high port for forwarding
20:00:17 <AnMaster> might have been qemu or somethinh
20:00:27 <ehird> now how do i represent k3 as a lower number :D
20:02:43 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 5000
20:02:43 <ehird> The authenticity of host '[localhost]:5000 ([127.0.0.1]:5000)' can't be established.
20:02:44 <ehird> RSA key fingerprint is 81:e6:45:cf:8a:c2:a6:e2:76:1a:94:b9:85:0e:56:c9.
20:02:44 <ehird> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?
20:02:46 <fizzie> UPnP stuff uses TCP port 5000. Probably not an issue.
20:02:54 <ehird> fizzie: hmm i do upnp stuff
20:02:57 <ehird> that's just on my router right
20:03:03 <ehird> I'll pick something more unique now anyway
20:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc the high ports are used for "automatically when connecting outwards" kind of stuff
20:04:48 <AnMaster> thus might be iffy to use when doing "listening to incoming" kind of stuff
20:05:30 <AnMaster> `addquote <ehird> thanks AnMaster
20:05:31 <HackEgo> 68|<ehird> thanks AnMaster
20:05:56 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
20:06:05 <HackEgo> 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
20:06:17 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
20:06:22 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
20:06:25 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
20:06:28 <ehird> HackEgo has rape on the brain.
20:06:31 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
20:06:35 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
20:06:43 <HackEgo> 43|<ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
20:06:46 <HackEgo> 11|<SimonRC> TODO: sex life
20:06:51 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
20:06:57 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
20:07:02 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
20:07:04 <HackEgo> 66|<Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
20:07:12 <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
20:07:19 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
20:07:25 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
20:07:35 <AnMaster> <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
20:07:37 <fizzie> That is a useful tool for highlighting everyone.
20:07:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, care to tell me context
20:07:41 <ehird> "that were the new ones" x_x
20:07:46 <fizzie> ` is the Scheme quasiquote character.
20:07:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Achievement Unlocked
20:07:55 <ehird> AnMaster: also, I meant the grammar
20:08:09 <ehird> (Achievement Unlocked being a metagame)
20:08:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That was a joke, right?
20:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, rather, I'm kind of tired
20:08:35 <Warrigal_> I have two mind-computer interfaces.
20:09:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> (Achievement Unlocked being a metagame) <-- link
20:09:24 <Warrigal_> One, the high-bandwidth one, transfers many megabytes of data every second.
20:09:42 <ehird> There is a game. You have to do things like die a lot, click the credits link, futz with the flash quality, scroll the achievements list, and kill yourself in other imaginative ways.
20:09:50 <ehird> And play for a certain amount of time, etc.
20:10:10 <Warrigal_> In fact, the limiting factor in using this interface is not its width but the brain's processing power.
20:10:31 <ehird> That doesn't transfer megabytes.
20:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, no the neural data direct link
20:11:00 <ehird> No, he's talking about real ones.
20:11:18 <Warrigal_> The other one is the true limiting factor in using the computer. Its bandwidth is a mere seven bits per second.
20:11:34 <ehird> You can only type one key a second?
20:12:41 <Warrigal_> I am talking about the keyboard here.
20:12:48 <Warrigal_> The high-bandwidth interface is the monitor.
20:12:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:13:02 <AnMaster> that isn't megabytes per second
20:13:38 <ehird> It is megabytes per second.
20:13:47 <Warrigal_> If you encode data by coloring every pixel as either black or white, and you display a new screen every 500 milliseconds, that's megabytes per second.
20:13:48 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, lets see. How many chars per seconds do you type
20:13:58 <Warrigal_> I type at around 70 words per minute.
20:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: 800x600x3 = 1.37MB
20:14:22 <Warrigal_> A word carries about 6 bits of information, according to sources I'm suddenly not inclined to believe.
20:14:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking along the lines of vector displays :P (retcon!)
20:15:11 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, well maybe it does. Don't know. But each char is nromally 8 bits wide
20:15:29 <AnMaster> which I'm not sure what it uses for PS/2 or USB
20:15:47 <fizzie> 372 seconds for a second achievement-unlocked run. That wasn't very fast.
20:15:49 <ehird> AnMaster: keyboards can only enter 7 bits
20:16:11 <ehird> fizzie: dayum you quick
20:16:11 <AnMaster> ehird, there are high level scan codes
20:16:43 <fizzie> Like Deewiant said, the last almost-a-minute was self-killing.
20:16:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc the browser backwards/forwards keys are reported as scan codes 247 and 248
20:17:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:17:45 <Warrigal_> I doubt that this keyboard has as many keys as there are printable ASCII characters.
20:17:52 <Warrigal_> And there are only 95 printable ASCII characters.
20:17:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:18:06 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, backspace and enter aren't printable
20:18:38 <fizzie> 104 or 105 is a typical number of keys nowadays; used to be 101/102, before the 2*win+menu keys were added.
20:19:34 <Warrigal_> sitttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
20:20:12 <Warrigal_> Which looks like an arpeggio that does G D B B B B B . . .
20:20:31 <GregorR-L> Wow, this macbook keyboard only has 79 keys ...
20:20:48 <AnMaster> well you drop keypad on laptop
20:21:00 <Warrigal_> But seriously, this is a laptop keyboard.
20:21:41 <AnMaster> depending on model you might drop more, like prtsc and such
20:21:49 <Warrigal_> If typing consisted of pressing random keys in sequence, I would be doing...
20:22:13 <AnMaster> too lazy to count them on my laptop
20:22:17 <Warrigal_> `calc log(88)/log(2) * 7 per second
20:22:19 <HackEgo> ((log(88) / log(2)) * 7) per second = 45.2160213 hertz
20:22:29 <Warrigal_> About 45 bits per second. Not bad.
20:22:33 * Sgeo wonders if it would be worth it to make a sort of PSOX thing that didn't use NULs and was more usable by, say, Taxi, for example
20:23:20 <Asztal> this mouse has a 16-bit wide data path and a polling rate of 1kHz, so I guess it's upwards of 16kbps?
20:23:25 <AnMaster> if anyone is interested I can upload a photo of the laptop keyboard
20:23:38 <AnMaster> Asztal, how do you know it is 16 bit wide?
20:23:45 <Asztal> because the specs say so
20:23:58 <AnMaster> unusual that they list that in specs
20:24:03 <Warrigal_> If you can jitter your mouse completely randomly, yeah.
20:24:26 <Asztal> AnMaster: they claim it's a feature (i.e. 12-bit ones can wrap around, or something)
20:24:36 <Warrigal_> Let me see you make your hand vibrate at 500 Hz.
20:24:37 <Asztal> if you move _really fast_, presumably
20:24:52 <Asztal> I'm not convinced either :)
20:24:57 <fizzie> 107 physical keys in this keyboard; it's close to the standard 105 key model, except only one Win key (-1), a "fn" key instead of menu (no change), scroll lock combined with pause/break (-1) and four non-standard volume control + backlight keys.
20:25:32 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, button presses, and I guess velocity
20:25:39 <Asztal> it also has a gold-plated USB connector... :/
20:25:57 <Asztal> but it's a good mouse, so I put up with some of the useless things
20:26:24 <ehird> [20:17] AnMaster: screen shot of this game
20:26:24 <ehird> elephant in coloured, blocky level
20:27:13 <fizzie> You can find a speedrun video in youtube, if you really care.
20:27:30 <ehird> AnMaster: http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
20:27:39 <ehird> you need a keyboard and a mouse.
20:27:57 <ehird> Razer is all for gamers.
20:27:59 <ehird> AnMaster: then why ask
20:28:03 <ehird> AnMaster: google it yourself
20:28:05 <fizzie> 301 seconds "really 267sec!", don't know what that means.
20:28:54 <fizzie> I think I did <300 the first time I retried immediately after the first try, but can't be sure.
20:30:30 <fizzie> It's still about the game; it shows you a completion percentage.
20:30:31 <Sgeo> ..ehird didn't have an aneurism?
20:33:58 <oklopol> because they are homonyms, and one means nothing?
20:35:23 <ehird> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
20:35:45 <oklopol> well because if so, i might beat you later tonight
20:35:53 <ehird> fizzie: how did you kill yourself quickly?
20:35:55 <ehird> the spike thing is fastest
20:35:56 <oklopol> because i finished my book
20:35:58 <ehird> but the pit is more reliable
20:36:13 <oklopol> 0.23s is too short for getting into the pit isn't it
20:36:14 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlelTzEFJ5w 107s
20:36:22 <Warrigal_> AnMaster: i and y are very similar letters, and I can't of anything else he might have meant.
20:36:34 <oklopol> i'm not interested in getting a world record
20:36:40 <oklopol> i'm interested in beating you
20:37:10 <ehird> oklopol: i suggest you map out a game plan
20:37:20 <oklopol> i mean i wouldn't even be interested in beating Deewiant or fizzie, probably, you i just happen to consider very beatable in stupid flash games
20:37:29 <ehird> incidentally how do you do the contra, i keep doing it when switching apps away
20:37:33 <oklopol> because you like it, you can't be good at it
20:37:37 <ehird> i get the arrows but what does b/a become
20:37:41 <oklopol> the first rule of flash games
20:37:55 <ehird> fizzie only got it like 20 seconds quicker :P
20:38:11 <fizzie> ehird: I think you press 'a'. At least I remember pressing a and getting it at exactly that keypress.
20:38:11 <Warrigal_> The first rule of Flash games is that you can't be good at Flash games that you like?
20:38:14 <ehird> so you gotsa beat him too
20:38:14 <oklopol> i'll try to fit in that space
20:38:26 <ehird> incidentally, if you click armor games on the menu that saves time
20:39:39 <fizzie> Not quite sure. Anyway, I've been killing myself with the moving spike thing, it just needs a bit of more concentration to target it better. Still, you can hit the upper spikes too if you miss the bottom of it.
20:45:05 <ehird> 331, spent the last 30 seconds sitting there staying alive though
20:45:12 <ehird> so 301s of actually doing things
20:45:25 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:45:32 * ehird devises a game plan
20:49:05 <ehird> yay, I've got a good stat
20:49:18 <ehird> hoping to use the first 30 seconds to stay alive :P
20:50:07 <ehird> my gameplan gets me 27% at 20 seconds so far
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20:52:23 <ehird> hee, I can pretty much get a 1 achievement / second ratio so far
20:53:05 <ehird> unfortunately due to the stupid time requirements I can't finish it under a certain time :D
20:57:52 <ehird> my gameplan now gets 39% at about 23 seconds with semi-casual playing
20:58:45 <ehird> oklopol: you will never beat me! mwahahaha
21:00:12 <ehird> ofc the real achievements come when you start to die xD
21:00:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:01:48 * ehird plays himself some dot action 2
21:01:58 <ehird> a positively relaxing game compared to Achievement Unlocked!
21:02:09 <ais523> I was making a mental guess as to whether it was ehird or AnMaster who said hi when I saw the nickping on the tab
21:02:17 <ais523> ehird: I don't know of either of them
21:02:34 <ehird> that's to be expected, they're Flas
21:02:46 <ehird> most of the far-too-addicting, tiny, simple games are Flash
21:04:32 <ais523> the very best have been a couple of lines of JS, though
21:05:26 <ais523> otherwise it isn't tiny and simple enough
21:05:40 <ehird> yes, but that doesn't make them fun.
21:05:45 <ais523> wow, I remember writing a massively complex game in client-side JS
21:05:58 <ais523> saving was via the password method, it gave you masses of obfuscated text that you copied into a text file and saved
21:06:35 <ehird> ais523: shoulda just done eval(urldecode("<<level=5>>"))
21:06:48 <ehird> or even eval(urldecode("<<gamestate={...}>>"))
21:07:00 <ehird> invisible to anyone who wouldn't otherwise be able to circumvent it, and quite short
21:07:01 <ais523> ehird: there was obfuscated JS that you evalled in there
21:07:08 <ais523> but it lead to the files being too large if it was used for everything
21:07:10 <ehird> yes, but you don't need to obfuscate it
21:07:14 <ehird> then eval.urldecode
21:07:19 <ais523> ehird: mine was base64ed, to save space
21:07:37 <ais523> although, an unusual sort of base64, I used ' and " as the non-alphanumerics because they didn't word-wrap
21:08:41 <ais523> the game still works, sort of, I started a new game yesterday
21:09:00 <AnMaster> * ehird plays himself some dot action 2 <-- tell me about that game
21:09:02 <ais523> but it's nowhere near releasable quality, and stopped working in Konqueror for no apparent reason
21:09:07 <ais523> it's a parody of Pokémon
21:09:10 <ais523> and probably not a very good one
21:09:13 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, you're a dude and there are a bunch of blocks; most are white which is ground
21:09:16 <ehird> you can go left, right and jump
21:09:19 <ehird> there are blue blocks
21:09:21 <ehird> you have to get all of them
21:09:23 <ehird> there are red block
21:09:31 <ehird> there are green blocks
21:09:35 <ehird> they flip the stage upside down
21:09:36 <ehird> there are red blocks
21:09:44 <ehird> they let you go through yellow blocks
21:09:46 <AnMaster> you mentioned the red ones already
21:09:47 <ehird> and there's other stuff too.
21:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: i meant yellow the first time
21:10:11 <fizzie> I think someone said yellow's lava, though I always assumed electricity.
21:10:26 <ehird> but yeah, it's an electric fence
21:10:33 <ehird> AnMaster: also the red ones only last so long
21:10:36 <ehird> and the level only lasts so long
21:10:39 <ehird> and it gets really fucking hard.
21:10:41 <ehird> oh there's also water
21:10:45 <ehird> you float in it and go down and have to jump
21:10:46 <ehird> and you go slower.
21:10:58 <ehird> you just fall slowly
21:11:01 <ehird> and go left and right more slowly
21:11:04 <fizzie> 100 stages and wasn't there couple of extras.
21:11:18 <fizzie> I wonder how far I got; I think it must've been 98 or so.
21:11:34 <ehird> AnMaster: there's ones with like 100 blocks that you only get 40 seconds on
21:11:58 <AnMaster> is the achievement unlocked also time limited
21:12:16 <fizzie> No, the "score" is just the time you get.
21:13:11 <ehird> i don't imagine it's too complex
21:13:37 <fizzie> There's also that one stage in dot action where you have 999 seconds (I think it wasn't exactly a second) and 2744 dots to collect. Managed to run out of time in that.
21:14:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to do some things quickly though
21:14:19 <ehird> like the one where you have to die in the first second of a life, iirc
21:14:29 <ehird> but that's just jumping up twice quickly when the big spike passes
21:15:07 <AnMaster> I wonder if you could meta-game the meta gaming in that game
21:15:36 <fizzie> What oklo has to say about dot action 2: <oklopol> yes, competing with fizzie is fun. it would be fun to compete with him @ throwing dice and trying to get a lot of 20's. that doesn't make it a good game.
21:15:40 <ehird> Not unless you're xzibit.
21:15:50 <ehird> fizzie: oklopol is so pretentious though.
21:15:53 <ehird> he only likes boring games!
21:16:12 <fizzie> I don't think I passed 97, actually.
21:16:13 <ehird> Don't let your FACTS get in the way of my DISS.
21:16:53 <fizzie> Wait, or did I stop at 93 already. The logs are inconclusive.
21:17:01 <ehird> Just give us the cheat code!
21:17:08 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 15:12:06] < fizzie> Since ehird probably wants them codes, 086-754 gives the 101-108 list, while 809-936 gives the 1-100 list.
21:17:49 <ehird> You either have a very precise memory of dates, or are very good with grep.
21:18:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Connection timed out).
21:18:36 <fizzie> I did "grep -i dot action" to find the approximate time, then "grep fizzie 2008-* | grep 99".
21:18:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:20:12 <fizzie> I thought level 99 had been talked about. And indeed it had.
21:20:22 <fizzie> Though it also picked the "999 seconds" comments.
21:20:34 <fizzie> 92 was the annoying labyrinth, I did solve that.
21:21:49 <ehird> Is it just me, or does the music in Dot Action 2 reflect the level type?
21:22:05 <ehird> For instance, the "dang, dang dang dong" bass-y one seems to mean "ohnoes avoid electricity".
21:30:49 <ehird> the 1-second stage
21:37:09 <AnMaster> yay reached the castle in nethack
21:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on that
21:37:33 <AnMaster> play val, what is the best way to solve the castle in nethack
21:37:49 <AnMaster> ais523 may have an opinion too
21:38:02 <ehird> AnMaster seems to assume that everyone plays nethack
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21:39:21 <ais523> AnMaster: do you have an instrument?
21:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. picked up a magic harp during the way
21:39:49 <AnMaster> so you suggest the bridge killing way
21:39:56 <ais523> yes, that's the best one if you can get away with it
21:40:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have anything for the E word though
21:40:12 <ais523> assuming no monsters have a potion of acid on them, which is very unlikely, you can destroy the whole castle like that more or less
21:40:29 <ais523> and you don't need to elbereth your square, apart from monsters in the moat none of them will get near yo
21:40:38 <ais523> see a video of someone clearing the castle like that, and you'll get the idea
21:41:15 <ais523> xorns can't cross the moat
21:41:23 <ais523> and if you get two xorns against each other, one will fall in
21:41:37 <ais523> so once you finish clearing things out, there'll be nobody left but one xorn
21:41:42 <ais523> the moat is more of a problem
21:41:54 <ais523> you could freeze the squares apart from the one the drawbridge closes on, to stop eels going there
21:42:00 <ais523> or fill them with a scroll of earth from Sokoban
21:42:08 <AnMaster> ais523, don't have anything to freeze with
21:42:45 <AnMaster> ais523, what about earth <whatever the name was>
21:43:00 <AnMaster> but seems common on the castle
21:43:00 <ais523> you're unlikely to see one at the castle unless you're highly levelled
21:43:02 <ais523> and they're really slow anyway
21:43:32 <ais523> what have you been /doing/?
21:43:47 <ais523> farming, and you have no wands of cold or perm-E wands?
21:43:54 <ais523> you are the world's worst farmer...
21:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, got destroyed in an accident
21:44:13 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure you could find some cabbage farmers here in Finland with no wands of cold either.
21:44:28 <ais523> anyway, at level 27, you don't need a strategy for clearing the castle!
21:44:37 <ais523> fizzie: that's because cabbages don't drop items when they die
21:44:48 <AnMaster> ais523, wand of polymorph on the whole loot by mistake
21:45:22 <ais523> I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the cabbages
21:45:27 <ais523> if I'm not, let's use it as a new source of manufacturing
21:45:34 <AnMaster> ais523, luckily I genocided liches
21:45:46 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have been in large trouble by now
21:47:00 <ais523> yay, Ubuntu finally committed a fix to the beeps-on-shutdown thing
21:47:37 <ais523> several times, for no apparent reason
21:47:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
21:48:15 <ais523> I don't know, I assume it's attached to the bug report
21:48:21 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the bug report!?
21:48:40 <ais523> ah, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/290204
21:51:36 <ais523> no obvious fix attached to it, though
21:52:01 <AnMaster> ais523, mine didn't beep at all
21:52:26 <AnMaster> don't think it *has* a pc-speaker though
21:52:29 <ais523> AnMaster: the bug is apparently in gnome-session, and possibly xfce-session
21:52:37 <AnMaster> but it is definitely using the speakers
21:52:47 <AnMaster> since hardware muting turns off all sound
21:52:49 <ais523> well, that would explain why you don't hear the PC speaker beep, then
21:53:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I do use gnome on the laptop
21:55:00 <ais523> I use KDE and Gnome mixed up here
21:55:18 <ais523> Compiz, but with Gnome in charge
21:55:50 <AnMaster> ais523, "beep" to beep pc speaker works
21:56:12 <ais523> obviously you're using a complex software emulation of a simple hardware beep, tehn
21:56:17 <ais523> sort of an abstraction inversion
21:56:40 <AnMaster> I think the BIOS or something emulates it
21:57:13 <AnMaster> why: because it is the exact same sound as "invalid key press in BIOS setup"
21:57:15 <ehird> fizzie: oklopol: 270 finished, 300 clear (exactly)
21:57:19 <ehird> extra time is 30 seconds staying alive
21:57:49 <AnMaster> ehird, 30 seconds staying alive?
21:57:57 <ehird> That's one of the achievements.
21:58:38 <ehird> It involves sitting there after dying.
21:58:40 <ehird> Or doing productive stuff.
21:59:23 <AnMaster> ehird, is number of lives limited?
21:59:39 <ehird> A lot of the achievements involve dying. :P
21:59:47 <AnMaster> btw there was some sort of death robin on NAO
21:59:54 <ehird> Anyway, I'm aiming to get the 30 seconds thing at the start by doing all the non-dangerous things.
21:59:59 <AnMaster> I played that once or twice iirc
22:00:11 <ais523> some day I want to get it killed by Vlad
22:00:20 <AnMaster> ais523, is that missing in it?
22:00:22 <ais523> DeathRobin's the only account you could do that on without dying of eternal embarassment
22:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, is it hard to be killed by Vlad?
22:00:49 <ais523> ehird: death, because it's trying to die in as many ways as possible
22:00:54 <ais523> robin, because anyone can use the account
22:01:09 <ais523> there are a huge number of ways to die in NetHack, trying to use /all/ of them is several years of work
22:01:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so is it hard to get killed by vlad
22:01:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it's hard to reach him, he's pretty deep in the game
22:01:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember falling of a horse into a beartrap
22:01:40 <ais523> also, he's famous as the wimpiest boss in NetHack
22:01:50 <AnMaster> don't think it said I was falling of the hourse when I did die of the beartrap
22:02:05 <ais523> he's not bad in absolute terms, just you have to be massively powerful to even reach him, and when you do he's a pushover
22:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I know he is hard to reach
22:02:20 <AnMaster> but when I get there I'm generally level 29 or so
22:02:43 <ais523> AnMaster: most people don't level up that far in an entire game, but wizards
22:02:48 <ais523> he's a pushover even at level 14, though
22:02:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: most people don't level up that far in an entire game, but wizards <-- wizards do level up that far? Hm
22:03:08 <ais523> AnMaster: because it helps their spellcasting
22:03:18 <ais523> as a valk, going beyond 14 is inadvisable because it helps the monsters more than it helps you
22:03:23 <ais523> (harder monsters spawn the more powerful you are)
22:03:53 <ais523> anyway, I was working on gcc-bf recently
22:04:19 * ais523 watches AnMaster's receding form
22:04:22 <AnMaster> * Now talking on #feather-lang
22:04:40 <ais523> wtf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal
22:04:52 <ais523> it's exactly the same as BF, except it doesn't have [ or ]
22:05:00 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me about what new stuff happened to gcc-bf
22:05:00 <ais523> and its author has claimed it TC, and hasn't even mentioned BF in the article
22:05:22 <ais523> AnMaster: fixed comparisons to actually work, left-shift now works, so does subtraction on things wider than chars
22:05:35 <ais523> and, fwiw, addition on things wider than chars
22:06:21 <ais523> also, a major increase in pointer handling
22:06:23 <pikhq_> ais523: So, does "Hello, world!" work? ;)
22:06:34 <AnMaster> turned out that while the design was much better than "before", it was still quite bad
22:06:42 <ais523> it does if you bypass the stdlib, and has for ages
22:07:00 <ais523> although putchar crashes somewhere in the line-buffering code
22:07:09 <pikhq_> ais523: I mean: int main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}
22:07:21 <ais523> neither putchar or sprintf works yet
22:07:45 <ais523> well, sprintf /possibly/ works, last time I tried to run it it went in to what looked like an infinite loop
22:07:51 <ais523> but it might just have been a very slow finite loop
22:08:08 <pikhq_> ais523: So, basically, it's only slightly more capable than C2BF.
22:08:20 <ais523> pikhq_: no, it's a lot more capable but a lot buggier
22:08:33 <ais523> as in, it should be able to handle such code, just doesn't atm due to bugs
22:08:40 <ais523> I gave up when I got an 'unmatched [' error
22:08:49 <ais523> which really shocks me, htf can that happen in generated code?
22:09:44 <pikhq_> I suspect that's indicative of a lot of your problems.
22:09:46 <ais523> I think the interpreter's OK
22:10:01 <ais523> I'm trying to get it to be the first program in the world that's truly Splint-clean, but it's hard
22:10:08 <ais523> you have to be pedantic to well beyond typical programming levels
22:10:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what about splint itself
22:10:56 <AnMaster> splint is mostly dead software iirc
22:11:02 <ais523> splint's author offered quite a hefty prize to anyone who could write a truly splint-clean program, it's that pedantic
22:11:43 <AnMaster> ais523, a splint clean hello world shouldn't be hard
22:11:53 <ais523> AnMaster: he said serious program, IIRC
22:12:22 <ais523> "A spe‐cial reward will be presented to the first person to produce a real program that produces no errors with strict checking."
22:12:29 <ehird> doesn't sound monetary
22:12:35 <ehird> or I'd write a splint-clean IRC client
22:12:49 <ais523> ehird: it warns of all sorts of things
22:12:58 <ehird> ais523: so what? I'll fix them
22:13:00 <ehird> tedious rather than hard
22:13:03 <ehird> an IRC client requires no trickery at all
22:13:04 <ais523> at the highest levels, it complains of things like not having and documenting a consistent variable naming scheme
22:13:18 <Deewiant> How can it detect whether it's documented
22:13:26 <ais523> Deewiant: you have to document it in splint format
22:13:34 <ehird> ais523: I don't think you realise that I only have impatience for unchanging things
22:13:39 <ehird> anything that has variation can never bore me
22:13:48 <ehird> well, unless I don't enjoy doing it
22:13:50 <ehird> I enjoy programming, so
22:14:03 <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:146:25: Declaration parameter has name: __c
22:14:06 <pikhq_> ais523: How pedantic *is* it?
22:14:20 <ehird> So I'll write my own ctype.h or not use it.
22:14:21 <ais523> it's worried that another header file included before ctype.h might do #define __c foo
22:14:45 <ais523> which is technically legal, as it's a header and can uses whatever definitions it likes, especially if they have __ there
22:14:54 <ais523> AnMaster: most people disagree with it a lot sooner
22:14:55 <pikhq_> So, it sounds like the only way to do splint-clean C involves writing a libc.
22:15:00 <Deewiant> ais523: Can't that happen for every identifier? What would it accept?
22:15:14 <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:58:26: Left operand of << may be negative (int): (1 << (8)) << 8
22:15:22 <ais523> there's also the simply incorrect warnings you have to fix, too
22:15:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Assume a 0.5-bit signed integer type.
22:15:43 <pikhq_> #error "Predefined __c."
22:15:49 <ehird> Deewiant: (1 << 8)
22:15:52 <ehird> that could easily be negative, maybe
22:16:01 <ais523> even funnier, it's warning about stuff which is potentially implementation-defined
22:16:08 <ais523> in /system header files/
22:16:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:16:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so don't use system header files
22:16:51 <Deewiant> Complaining about anything at all in system header files seems a bit pointless
22:17:27 <ehird> Meh, now I've got to do it
22:17:32 <ehird> Do you think an IRC client counts as real?
22:17:59 <Deewiant> Just grab something existing and make it work
22:18:37 <Deewiant> You never finish anything anyway
22:18:38 <fizzie> I don't think it can be negative in very standard C's, given that C89 INT_MAX must be at least 32767. Not that splint would let you assume any standard, of course.
22:18:41 <ais523> int putchar(int c); int main(void) { (void) putchar('\n'); return 0; }
22:18:45 <Deewiant> At least that way you can get started
22:18:46 <ais523> that gives 6 warnings, amazingly
22:18:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those warnings
22:19:14 <ais523> one is 'putchar exported but not defined in header file'
22:19:21 <Deewiant> Casting to void instead of checking return value?
22:19:23 <ais523> another is 'putchar declared but not defined'
22:19:34 <ais523> Deewiant: no, it's happy with doing that, the cast to void says you don't want the return value
22:19:42 <ehird> fizzie: (1 << 8) can be negative
22:19:47 <ehird> 're assuming 2s-complement
22:19:54 <ais523> also, it complains that the name 'putchar' is reserved for the standard library
22:19:59 <Deewiant> ais523: I know, but it sounds anal enough to not be happy
22:20:08 <AnMaster> so you need to include the system header
22:20:24 <ehird> no, just rewrite the system headers
22:20:26 <ais523> ehird: no, int must be at least 16 bits, 1 is positive, left-shifting of positive numbers is defined arithmetically no matter what encoding you're using
22:20:28 <pikhq> You need to write your own system header.
22:20:53 <ais523> my favourite warning of all is that putchar was not documented to possibly modify the file system
22:21:21 <ais523> ehird: modifying the file system is fine; but you have to document it when you do it
22:21:24 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just assuming what C89 lets me assume about <<.
22:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, splint fails on C99 btw
22:21:37 <fizzie> Namely, that (1 << 8) will end up as 256.
22:21:54 <ehird> fizzie: 256 << something could be negative!
22:22:06 <fizzie> That's not what it's complaining about, though.
22:22:08 <Deewiant> ehird: "Left operand of << may be negative"
22:22:38 <fizzie> Maybe it's the 1 it's concerned about.
22:22:46 <AnMaster> <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:58:26: Left operand of << may be negative (int): (1 << (8)) << 8 <-- so either 1 or (1 << (8))
22:23:03 <ais523> AnMaster: at least it wasn't "parse error"
22:23:06 <ais523> and no, the parens are matched there
22:23:26 <ehird> i'm going to write a bloated, splint-clean hello world now
22:23:27 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:23:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... You can't assume the bit representation of anything.
22:23:42 <ais523> ehird: I'm not even sure it's possible to write a splint-clean hello world without writing your own OS
22:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: it's called practice
22:24:00 <ehird> pikhq: no, c89 specifies it
22:24:04 <pikhq> Making the bitshift operator the SINGLE WORST OPERATOR. :P
22:24:09 <pikhq> ehird: Fair enough.
22:24:15 <ais523> pikhq: c89 specifies bit representation down to three possibilities
22:24:18 <ehird> ais523: what's the command line to make splint the most inane tool possible?
22:24:34 <Deewiant> ais523: Wait, how does it know whether putchar is from a system header or not
22:24:37 <ehird> splint -v -v -v -v --V-DAMMIT --i-hate-myself-with-a-fiery-passion --no-i-mean-really
22:24:41 <fizzie> What, no "--really-strict --really-very-strict --no-really-I-mean-it-strict".
22:24:42 <Deewiant> Whether it's declared in stdio.h or not?
22:24:49 <ais523> fizzie: most of the flags are turning warnings off
22:25:02 <ais523> Deewiant: it preprocesses code then lints the result
22:25:07 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal Out of immense curiosity, how the fuck is this Turing complete?
22:25:11 <pikhq> I need to execute someone.
22:25:28 <ais523> whoever wrote the article was lying, obviously
22:25:34 <pikhq> ais523: "Execute someone".
22:25:46 <ehird> hello.c:5:5: Called procedure puts may access file system state, but globals
22:25:47 <ehird> list does not include globals fileSystem
22:25:47 <ehird> A called function uses internal state, but the globals list for the function
22:25:47 <Deewiant> ais523: Say you're writing a C library and want to define putchar, what do you do
22:25:47 <ehird> being checked does not include internalState (Use -internalglobs to inhibit
22:25:54 <ehird> thanks for telling me how to fix that, splint!
22:26:12 * ehird actually handles puts' return value
22:26:17 <ais523> Deewiant: give it a bunch of annotations, and don't name the arguments
22:26:24 <ais523> Deewiant: well, you know of stdio, I assume
22:26:30 <ais523> it uses buffering, generally
22:26:32 <ehird> ais523: does --strict enforce the variable naming thing?
22:26:43 <ais523> and you can't mess with the stdio buffer without letting it know
22:26:46 <pikhq> Deewiant: It wants it to be purely functional.
22:26:48 <ais523> ehird: oh, good point, it doesn't
22:26:53 <ehird> ais523: well then!
22:26:57 <Deewiant> I thought it meant like the ST monad
22:27:13 <Deewiant> Which would have been exceedingly odd in an imperative language
22:27:40 <ais523> ehird: it's not on the man page
22:27:46 <ais523> and I can't remember where the full docs are
22:27:53 <ais523> I think it was an optional "you can enforce this if you want"
22:28:02 <fizzie> Just a guess: http://www.splint.org/manual/
22:28:42 <ais523> ehird: ah, http://www.splint.org/manual/html/sec12.html explains the naming convention stuff
22:29:05 <ehird> Czech names seem quite anal
22:29:22 <ehird> Using +distinct-external-names sets the number of significant characters for external names to six and makes alphabetical case insignificant for external names. This is the minimum significance acceptable in an ANSI-conforming compiler
22:29:30 <ehird> that's not default? :O
22:29:39 <fizzie> Try to get both the Czech names as well as Namespace prefixes done in the same program.
22:30:33 <ehird> "If access-czech is on, the representation of the type is visible in the constant or variable definition."
22:30:57 <ehird> ais523: ok, how do I tell it that no, something doesn't modify the filesystem?
22:31:07 <ais523> that it doesn't, or that it does?
22:31:33 <fizzie> Actually I don't think there's a prefix flag for just normal auto-variable vars, or struct members, or any other such widely used things, so I guess you can get both with no too bad restrictions.
22:31:43 <ais523> /*@ modifies nothing @*/
22:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, hello.c:5:5: Programmer is claiming this doens
22:31:56 <ais523> you can use internalState or fileSystem there if it modifies one of those
22:32:03 <AnMaster> doesn't* modify anything, but I don't believe that!
22:32:12 <ehird> ais523: before a declaration I assume?
22:32:29 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think you can put /*@ modifies nothing @*/ in if you're actually using puts there.
22:32:31 <ais523> ehird: no, just before the semicolon
22:32:42 <ehird> ais523: but if I want to make it global?
22:32:43 <ais523> or just before the {} block if it's on a definition
22:32:53 <ehird> "puts never modifies the filesystem"
22:33:08 <ais523> ehird: then you put it on the declaration of puts
22:33:17 <ais523> and if you can't get at the declaration of puts, that's your problem
22:33:30 <ehird> if (puts("Hello, world!") /*@ modifies nothing @*/ == EOF) {
22:33:40 <ais523> ehird: that's on the use
22:33:43 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to enable namespace prefixes too
22:33:44 <ais523> you have to put it on the declaration
22:33:56 <ehird> "no, just before the semicolon"
22:34:00 <ehird> I don't want to lie!
22:34:18 <ais523> as in, int puts(const char *) /*@ modifies nothing @*/ ;
22:34:20 <ehird> ais523: this enforces constness right?
22:34:30 <ais523> ehird: you have to annotate the argument to puts too
22:34:30 <AnMaster> or even better what ais523 said
22:34:33 <fizzie> Just don't lie, and put the necessary "modifies" annotations to your own function; what's wrong with that?
22:34:39 <ehird> ais523: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
22:34:43 <ais523> in this case, it would be (const char * /*@ observer @*/)
22:34:47 <ehird> fizzie: But puts doesn't externally modify a thing.
22:34:51 <ehird> ais523: Observer?!
22:34:55 <ais523> which means "I only look at the (non-null) data pointed to here, and don't modify it"
22:35:00 <ehird> ahahahahahahahahah
22:35:08 <ais523> there are a huge number of annotations like that, and between them they don't cover all the possibilities
22:35:13 <pikhq> ehird: It writes to a file descriptor.
22:35:17 <pikhq> ZOMG, that might be a file.
22:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, see why doing a non-trivial splint clean program is insane?
22:35:27 <ais523> ehird: fileSystem includes stdin and stdout
22:35:46 <ais523> + turns an option on, - turns it off
22:36:04 <ehird> ais523: OK, so I don't want modifies nothing
22:36:14 <ehird> So I annotate main as modifying fileSystem?
22:36:17 <ais523> yep, you want modifies fileSystem, internalState
22:36:21 <ais523> and annotate main the same way, yes
22:36:25 <ehird> and therefore, I don't need to do the declaration with observer
22:36:32 <fizzie> http://www.splint.org/manual/html/manual-301_files/image003.gif oo, science!
22:36:40 <ehird> it didn't complain about it to me beforehand
22:36:54 <pikhq> All this convinces me that there needs to be a better C.
22:36:55 * ehird starts putting {s on their own line to fit everything
22:36:58 <ehird> and to make it EXTRA CLEAR!
22:37:15 <ais523> ehird: you get that a lot
22:37:26 <ais523> just you wait until you end up annotating what happens to every field in a structure, separately
22:37:37 <ais523> also, annotating buffers to make sure they don't overflow
22:37:49 <ais523> and then watching in horror as splint fails to make perfectly sensible deductions from what you've written
22:37:50 <ehird> i'm not agitated one bit yet
22:37:58 <fizzie> The deallocator, free, is declared: void free (/*@only@*/ /*@out@*/ /*@null@*/ void *ptr);
22:38:03 <ais523> I've had to write helper functions before now, for no purpose but putting constraints on them
22:38:12 <ais523> fizzie: I get all that, except the out
22:38:49 <fizzie> "To check that allocated objects are completely destroyed (e.g., all unshared objects inside a structure are deallocated before the structure is deallocated), Splint checks that any parameter passed as an out only void * does not contain references to live, unshared objects. This makes sense, since such a parameter could not be used sensibly in any way other than deallocating its storage."
22:38:53 <fizzie> It may be related to that.
22:39:01 * ehird defines every single namespace thingy
22:39:19 <ehird> Any variable declared inside a macro body"
22:39:20 <ais523> fizzie: ah, 'out' means something entirely different on something marked 'only'?
22:39:25 <ehird> Hey, that's pretty cool actually.
22:39:36 <pikhq> ais523: Free can modify what that points to. Granted, "modification" means "removing page table entries" in this case. ;)
22:39:41 <ehird> How about "macro_".
22:39:46 <ehird> Then it'll be, I think, int_macro_x
22:40:05 <ehird> unchecked-macro-prefix
22:40:05 <ehird> Any macro that is not checked as a function or constant (see Section 11.4)
22:40:09 <ehird> what does that mean
22:40:21 <ais523> ehird: you can mark macros as constant-like or function-like
22:40:30 <ais523> if you have a macro that does something else, you have to name it oddly
22:40:43 <ehird> ais523: well why would I have a macro that does something else? that's not maintainable!
22:40:48 <ehird> (is there a way to make it yell at you for doing that?)
22:41:02 <ais523> ehird: use a namespace prefix more than 6 characters long?
22:41:13 <ehird> ais523: that's for external names
22:41:16 <ehird> don't you know anything?!
22:41:19 <ais523> and I was being facetious
22:41:23 <AnMaster> CFUN_FINGER_MODU_GENERATE_FUNC(X, 50)
22:41:28 <AnMaster> CFUN_FINGER_MODU_GENERATE_FUNC(X, 10)
22:41:31 <fizzie> Ooh, there's annotations for reference-counted structs.
22:41:31 <ehird> THAT IS NOT MAINTAINABLE
22:41:40 <ehird> Write all the functions out by hand.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is "other" macro
22:41:48 <ehird> ais523: I'll name them UNSAFE_NAME
22:42:09 <ais523> I think the intended use of splint is not to obey all the rules, but rather to document where you break them
22:42:17 <ehird> I will never do that.
22:42:33 <ehird> Tags for struct, union and enum declarations
22:42:45 <ais523> ehird: no, name and tag are different in C
22:42:46 <pikhq> ehird: /*@notfunction@*/
22:42:58 <ais523> it's a rather complicated distinction that rarely comes up
22:43:06 <ehird> ais523: but it's the thing in struct foo, right?
22:43:24 <ais523> it's very common to do things like typedef struct tag_foo { ...} foo;
22:43:33 <ais523> so you have a struct called struct tag_foo
22:43:36 <ais523> which can also just be called foo
22:43:37 <ehird> instead of tag_foo
22:43:40 <fizzie> ais523: "Storage reachable from reference need not be defined." is what 'out' means; I guess it sort-of makes sense in free, even without only.
22:43:42 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc typedef struct foo { ... } foo; works too?
22:43:53 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but that drives managers mad for no apparent reason
22:44:00 <ais523> probably because you're using the same word in two different namespaces
22:44:16 <AnMaster> ais523, for the same *object* though
22:44:32 <ais523> you are thinking insufficiently like a manager here
22:44:40 <fizzie> Was that thing special-cased in C++, though? Since there the struct-tag and typedef namespaces are the same, unless I recall worng.
22:44:44 <AnMaster> also different name spaces are for allow collisions
22:44:49 <ais523> fizzie: C++ uses different rules
22:44:56 <ais523> they are the same namespace there, just to add to the fun
22:45:13 <ehird> ais523: so far, the only part of splint annoying me is writing an anal command line
22:45:22 <ais523> ehird: you can use a response file instead
22:45:31 <ais523> and I agree, trying to splintproof things is kind-of fun
22:45:38 <ais523> I don't find it annoying, I just find it impossible
22:45:55 <ehird> reading splint docs
22:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your current command line
22:47:20 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but the "typedef struct foo { ... } foo;" is indeed a special-case in the C++ standard: "In a given non-class scope, a typedef specifier can be used to redefine the name of any type declared in that scope to refer to the type to which it already refers. [same struct example + others]"
22:47:38 <ehird> AnMaster: % splint +strict +distinct-external-names +czech-fcns +czech-vars +czech-constants +czech-macros +czech-types -macro-var-prefix macro_ +macro-var-prefix-exclude -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" +unchecked-macro-prefix-exclude -tag-prefix "tag_&*" +tag-prefix-exclude +type-prefix " hello.c
22:47:39 <fizzie> ais523: I mean, without that you'd get a problem with redefining the "foo" type.
22:48:05 <ehird> All non-function, non-constant macros must be UPPERCASE.
22:48:25 <ehird> ais523: type_foo or foo_t?
22:48:31 <ehird> i'm considering using camelcase to fit it all in
22:48:38 <ehird> ais523: that's inconsistent with tag_!
22:48:55 <ehird> typedef struct tagHello { ... } typeHello;
22:48:57 <ehird> who doesn't love that?!
22:48:57 <ais523> actually, I've seen people use trailing underscores instead of tag_ before
22:49:04 <ais523> ehird: who would use a struct just for hellos?
22:49:10 <ehird> SPLINT USERS!!!!!!!!!
22:49:22 <ehird> Slovak names are similar to Czech names, except they are spelled differently. A Slovak name is of the form <type><Name>. The type prefix may not use uppercase characters. The remainder of the name starts with the first uppercase character.
22:49:28 <fizzie> I've seen the trailing underscore thing too, it must be reasonably widespread.
22:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" is invalid C. first letter can
22:49:49 <ehird> "If access-czech is on, a function, variable, constant or iterator named <type>_<name> has access to the abstract type <type>."
22:50:00 <fizzie> And of course also the "typedef struct foo_s { ... } foo_t;" variant.
22:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, yeah, but the compiler rejects that.
22:50:03 <AnMaster> ~ is defined as "Any character that is not a lowercase letter (allows uppercase letters, digits and underscore)"
22:50:22 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly you should try to use the most exact form possible
22:50:43 <AnMaster> if you are going splint clean, go for "splint command line being exact" too
22:50:45 <ehird> hmm, macroFoo isn't explicit
22:50:48 <ehird> it should be macroVarFoo
22:50:49 <ais523> AnMaster: you'll get a parse error if you try to start an identifier with a digit, thus you won't need to mention it in your naming conventions
22:50:53 <ehird> or macroVariableFoo
22:51:00 <ais523> ehird: but that has a capital outside the leading portions
22:51:06 <ehird> ais523: that is the leading portion
22:51:08 <ais523> it would have to be macrovarFoo
22:51:18 <ais523> ehird: the leading portion is the portion of continuous lowercase
22:51:21 <ais523> according to that guide
22:51:28 <ehird> ais523: yes, but I'm defining these
22:51:30 <ehird> so they don't count
22:51:37 <ehird> it'll be either intMacroVariableFoo or macroVariableIntFoo at the end, I think
22:51:38 <AnMaster> ais523, still I think going for as exact expressions as possible is a great goal
22:51:39 <ais523> does splint agree with you on that?
22:51:42 <ehird> macroVariable is a bit of a mouthful
22:51:50 <ehird> is macroVar better or just too obscure to understand?!
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22:52:39 <ais523> ehird: you /are/ going to call the types onespot, twospot, etc, aren't you
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22:53:00 <nooga> any ideas where can i get simple wordlists for various natural languages?
22:53:10 <nooga> by simple i mean just raw list of words from a to z
22:53:13 <ais523> nooga: install linux, download them via a package manager
22:53:18 <AnMaster> nooga, /usr/share/dict possibly
22:53:26 <AnMaster> mine contains English and Swedish
22:53:31 <nooga> like aspell's ones?
22:53:36 <AnMaster> install the relevant package with your package mananger
22:53:46 <AnMaster> nooga, seems like a plausible source
22:53:52 <ehird> % splint +strict +distinct-external-names +slovak +access-slovak +slovak-fcns +slovak-vars +slovak-constants +slovak-macros +slovak-types -macro-var-prefix "macroVar^&*" +macro-var-prefix-exclude -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" +unchecked-macro-prefix-exclude -tag-prefix "tag^&*" -enum-prefix "enum^&*" +enum-prefix-exclude +tag-prefix-exclude -type-prefix "type^&*" +type-prefix-exclude -file-static-prefix "static^&*" +file-static-prefix-exclude hello.c
22:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, store that in a response file or shell script
22:54:18 <ehird> what's a response file anyway
22:54:29 <ehird> Any variable (not of function type) with global scope
22:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, a text file listing all the commands
22:54:42 <ehird> AnMaster, someone who can't address the right person
22:54:48 <ehird> We're all text files and people here.
22:55:03 <ehird> ais523: constFoo or constantFoo
22:55:05 <nooga> but aslepp wordlists contain full of weird characters and shit
22:55:07 <ehird> const could be mistaken for the declaration
22:55:21 <ehird> constPi, I mean, it could be a constant parameter called Pi, couldn't it?
22:55:28 <ehird> Whereas constantPi, well, you know where you are.
22:55:32 <AnMaster> splint -foo file_with_one_parameter_value_pair_per_line
22:55:46 <AnMaster> same as response file elsewhere
22:55:49 <ehird> An iterator (see Section 11.4)
22:55:51 <ehird> is that like i,j,k?
22:56:10 <ais523> ehird: not sure, possibly
22:56:23 <AnMaster> nooga, some languages uses weird chars
22:56:34 <ehird> It is often useful to be able to execute the same code for many different values. For example, we may want to sum all elements in an intSet that represents a set of integers. If intSet is an abstract type, there is no easy way of doing this in a client module without depending on the concrete representation of the type. Instead, we could provide such a mechanism as part of the type’s implementation. We call a mechanism for looping through many values an
22:56:41 <ehird> 11.4.1 Defining Iterators
22:56:41 <ehird> An iterator is defined using a macro. Here’s one (not particularly efficient) way of defining intSet_elements:
22:56:44 <ehird> oh god, it's awful
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22:57:04 <ehird> intSet_elements(foo,x)
22:57:07 <ehird> end_intSet_elements
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22:57:22 <ehird> http://www.splint.org/manual/html/sec11.html
22:57:24 <ais523> Splint: checking all design patterns, even the awful ones!
22:57:24 <ehird> it's a macro that iterates!
22:57:35 <ehird> well, it's more abstracted than int i = 0; etc
22:57:38 <ehird> but it's not good C :D
22:57:50 <ais523> the correct method would be using a function pointer callback
22:57:56 <ehird> "proto-param-prefix
22:57:56 <ehird> A parameter in a function declaration prototype"
22:58:04 <ais523> ehird: but you can't put anything there
22:58:10 <ais523> in case it conflicts with a definition in a header file
22:58:15 <ais523> it's splint's most common inane warning
22:58:23 <ehird> after all, param could be mistaken for pram
22:58:30 <ehird> think of a high-tech baby pram
22:58:33 <ehird> controlled by a computer
22:58:42 <ehird> what if we passed it a pram test instead of the parameter test?
22:58:47 <ais523> ehird: you need to call one of your parameters "againt", now
22:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Pram.jpg
22:58:57 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a device for moving babies around while they're asleep
22:59:10 <ehird> Any exported identifier"
22:59:21 * ehird doesn't set that one
22:59:29 <AnMaster> didn't know the English word for it
22:59:51 <ehird> ais523: what's the option for a response file
22:59:56 <AnMaster> would be a literal translation yes
23:00:01 <ais523> ehird: probably @, it is in most programs
23:00:20 <ehird> the dashes in splint options
23:00:23 <ehird> are actually stripped out
23:00:28 <ehird> they're just there for readability
23:00:34 <ais523> like dots in gmail addresses?
23:01:01 <ehird> what should I call it, opts.splint?
23:01:12 <ehird> AnMaster: a.b@gmail.com = ab@gmail.com
23:01:18 <AnMaster> ehird, that could be mistaken for an opt!
23:01:49 * ehird considers making a constant UPPERCASE instead
23:01:53 <ehird> and changing the macro convention
23:02:08 <AnMaster> ehird, good work bikeshedding with yourself :D
23:02:22 <ehird> Command Line: Unrecognized option: -@
23:02:22 <ehird> A flag is not recognized or used in an incorrect way (Use -badflag to inhibit
23:02:57 <ais523> hmm... splint appears to have no 'read options from this file' option
23:03:02 <ais523> I've just been scouring the docs for one
23:03:08 <ais523> you could use backquotes instead, though
23:03:37 <AnMaster> splint $(< options.splint) foo,c
23:03:56 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a bashism
23:04:05 <ais523> splint `cat options.splint` foo.c is the sh equivalent
23:04:08 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty sure it is a kshism too
23:04:35 <ais523> probably doesn't in ash, though, or busybox sh
23:05:18 <AnMaster> ais523, they aren't POSIX compilant
23:05:26 <AnMaster> because pretty much everything that ksh does is POSIX
23:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster: ash /is/ POSIX compliant
23:06:20 <AnMaster> The general format for redirecting input is:
23:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so yes ash should support it if it conforms to POSIX.1-2008 at least
23:07:49 <AnMaster> but pretty sure same applies there
23:08:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you're muddling two things there
23:08:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have ash installed
23:08:16 <ais523> AnMaster: you have an ubuntu system, don't you?
23:08:19 <ais523> it's the default sh on them
23:08:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, but it is turned off atm
23:08:39 <ais523> anyway, < redirects input
23:08:50 <ais523> so, say, cat < /dev/random redirects /dev/random to cat's input
23:09:01 <ais523> AnMaster: what says that? POSIX? I doubt it somehow
23:09:35 <AnMaster> ais523, can you test it in ash
23:10:05 <ais523> $ echo `< /etc/passwd`
23:10:10 <ais523> not what I expected at all...
23:10:15 <ais523> no error message, but no output either
23:10:31 <ais523> same, no output, just another prompt
23:10:42 <ais523> whereas cat /etc/passwd gives me /etc/passwd
23:10:55 <ais523> as does cat < /etc/passwd
23:14:51 <ais523> AnMaster: < /etc/passwd was also empty
23:15:00 <ais523> also, why are you surprised at stacking heredocs being valid?
23:15:21 <ais523> I thought it was common knowledge...
23:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, used one at a time only
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23:37:34 <ehird> ok, now splint is complaining about my command line
23:37:44 <ehird> Command Line: Setting macrovarprefix to string beginning with ". You probably
23:37:44 <ehird> don't meant to have the "'s.
23:37:54 <ehird> ais523: $(cat foo) has the contents as one argument, I think
23:38:05 <ehird> or at least, "" doesn't work
23:38:05 <ais523> no, that only happens if you put quotes around it
23:38:12 <ais523> maybe I'm wrong though
23:38:20 <ehird> well, "foo" in the file gets through literally
23:38:24 <ehird> I guess \ might work
23:38:31 <ehird> if i need to do multi-words
23:38:56 <ehird> Spec file not found: global^&*.lcl
23:38:56 <ehird> Cannot open file: global^&*.c
23:39:27 <ehird> LCL [GH93, Tan95] is a Larch interface language for Standard C. LCL uses a C-like syntax
23:39:47 * ehird just makes a splint script
23:41:39 <ehird> Why does splint insist glob-var-prefix isn't real?
23:43:34 <ehird> it's global-prefix now
23:44:22 <ehird> ais523: hmm... should unsafe macros be uppercase (KLUDGE), or constants (PI)?
23:44:37 <ehird> I'm thinking the former, due to it being VERY IMPORTANTLY SHOUTY.
23:44:38 <ais523> constants should be uppercase, unsafes should be more scary
23:45:17 <ehird> but it's not necessarily unsafe
23:45:20 <ehird> just very very special
23:45:29 <ehird> so it should stand out, not yell about the impending rapture
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23:47:16 <ehird> ais523: otoh, are constants really that special?
23:47:28 <ehird> constantPi is silly, because the constantness isn't the important part
23:47:34 <ais523> they're in allcaps in the standard header files
23:47:36 <ehird> but otoh they should be visually distinguished
23:47:38 <ais523> and why break C tradition?
23:47:43 <ehird> ais523: yes, and the header files also don't do intFoo
23:47:56 <ais523> when they do have a naming convention, you should follow it
23:48:00 <ehird> (I'll probably have to write a file mangling the C stdlib to the conventions I picked)
23:48:03 <ehird> ais523: No, then I'd use _t
23:48:10 <ehird> But that's inconsistent with the rest of my conventions
23:48:17 <ehird> Also, "not putting the type in the name" is a convention.
23:48:31 <ehird> But that's toooo easy, and also doesn't let the abstract-structure-is-molestable-if-you-have-its-name-in-your-name.
23:52:26 <ehird> ais523: Or should I go crazy and have _a for tag, _e for enum, _s for static...
23:52:37 <ais523> why are you asking me?
23:52:46 <ehird> Because you told me to follow the C library conventions
23:52:51 <ehird> and I was trying to reductio ad absurdum it
23:53:41 <ehird> ais523: I think splint would work a lot better in Ada
23:54:05 <ehird> "The botanists have named the pitcher plant after British natural history broadcaster David Attenborough." // it's a gigantic meat-eating plant
23:54:27 <ehird> "Man, this is one huge plant... and it eats meat..." "Sounds like David Attenborough!"
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00:07:33 <ehird> 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
00:07:33 <ehird> 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
00:07:43 <ehird> Been nice knowing you, church-going christians
00:07:49 <ehird> Or hey anyone who uses the lord's prayer
00:07:53 <ehird> See you guys in hell
00:08:22 <pikhq_> Hmm. Have I actually prayed in public?
00:08:39 <pikhq_> It always struck me as kinda dumb to do so.
00:08:39 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
00:08:53 <ehird> Have you ever prayed in a church?
00:09:21 <pikhq> Yes. Aforementioned church was almost completely empty.
00:09:42 <ehird> Ever used the Lord's Prayer more than once? :P
00:09:58 <pikhq> I... Don't think I've ever actually used it.
00:10:14 <ehird> Well, keep it up :P
00:10:19 <pikhq> I certainly don't have it memorised.
00:10:34 <ehird> Our father, who art in heaven
00:10:36 <ehird> hallowed by thy name
00:10:41 <ehird> give us this day our daily bread
00:10:43 <ehird> something about forgiveness
00:10:46 <ehird> something about tresspassing
00:10:47 <pikhq> Okay, actually, I do have it memorised.
00:10:50 <ehird> for you are the something something
00:10:51 <Pthing> forgive us our trespasses
00:10:59 <Pthing> as we forgive those who trespass against us
00:11:03 <Pthing> lead us not into temptation
00:11:04 <ehird> I haven't said that since before middle school
00:11:12 <ehird> or even read it more than once or twice beyond that
00:11:12 <Pthing> and deliver us from evil
00:11:14 <ehird> so pretty good imo
00:11:40 <pikhq> ehird: It's also amusing to read this: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".
00:12:11 <pikhq> (that is very, very hard to do, BTW)
00:12:14 <ehird> pikhq: must be fun reconciling that with the bible
00:12:37 <pikhq> ehird: ... You mean people pay attention to more than the Gospels?
00:12:54 <ehird> So, where did God say that you should only look at the Gospels?
00:13:30 <oklopol> i may remember it in finnish, but i don't think i've ever actually understood a word of it
00:13:52 <pikhq> Nowhere. He said it replaced the old testament, and everything that comes after the Gospels is basically irrelevant. :P
00:14:14 <ehird> translation of the lord's prayer to modern, streetwise English!:
00:14:26 <ehird> your name is pretty awesome.
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00:14:35 <ehird> Your ghetto will rock.
00:14:41 <ehird> People will do shit you ask them to.
00:14:49 -!- oklopol has joined.
00:14:51 <ehird> In the universe as well as that strange metaphysical dimension shit, man.
00:14:53 <oklopol> i mean i've probably understood it as i've said it, iirc we used to do that a lot in school, i just mean the way i remember it is 100% rote
00:15:03 <ehird> We like doing bad shit!
00:15:09 <ehird> But we're okay with other people doing bad shit.
00:15:23 <ehird> Don't make me buy the new iPhone
00:15:32 <ehird> And stop me doing bad shit.
00:16:24 <oklopol> what's the iphone part originally
00:16:43 <ehird> no it literally says that
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00:17:09 <ehird> DEAR BILLY GRAHAM: We pray the Lord’s Prayer in our church every week, but do you think the time will ever come when God’s will actually is going to be done on earth as it is in heaven (as the prayer says)? The world is so full of evil that I honestly wonder how it could ever happen. — Mrs. D.C.
00:17:10 <ehird> http://www.kansascity.com/238/story/1374439.html
00:17:25 <nooga> i try to find anagrams for all 7 letters long words in ~35MB wordlist
00:17:35 <nooga> and the script in ruby is riddiculously slow
00:25:07 <oklopol> ehird: that really opened my eyes
00:25:23 <ehird> oklopol: to magic?
00:30:20 <oklopol> i always get a weird feeling when i see someone start talking about the teachings of the bible, it's like that first moment in a movie when you see something that can't happen in real life, you kinda switch into fiction mode
00:31:12 <ais523> nooga: ruby is ridiculously slow in general
00:31:19 <ehird> ais523: beep beep FUD
00:31:20 <ais523> I did exactly that in Perl a few months ago, it took a few minutes
00:31:25 <ehird> If he's using Ruby 1.9, it's not slow.
00:31:25 <oklopol> actually fairly similar to the feeling of the fourth wall being broken
00:31:29 <ehird> Anything below, yeah, dog slow.
00:31:35 <oklopol> although that's kinda the other way around
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00:42:31 <pikhq> ehird: It's still slow. And dynamic to boot.
00:42:41 <ehird> YARV is like python-speed.
00:43:22 <nooga> vomits:its mist moist most omit omits sit sot vim vims vomit
00:43:41 <ehird> int puts(const char * /*@ observer @*/)
00:43:45 <ehird> /*@ modifies fileSystem, internalState @*/;
00:43:50 <ehird> guess it needs to be on the same line
00:44:08 <ehird> is it asking for a name? xD
00:45:32 <ehird> hello.c:5:5: Modifies list for main uses global file system state, not included
00:45:56 <ehird> A global variable is used in the modifies clause, but it is not listed in the
00:45:56 <ehird> globals list. The variable will be added to the globals list. (Use
00:45:56 <ehird> -warnmissingglobs to inhibit warning)
00:45:58 <ehird> watttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
00:46:39 * oerjan read that as involving global warming somehow
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00:47:30 <oerjan> also, terawattttttttttttttttttttttttttt
00:47:55 <ehird> http://pastie.org/580711.txt?key=hshhnvulajwdtdccu5ddhq
00:48:02 <ehird> I now hate splint.
00:48:12 <ehird> (The error is that I missed a star.)
00:48:35 <pikhq> ehird: So, needs more type inference?
00:49:35 <ehird> [22:34] ais523: in this case, it would be (const char * /*@ observer @*/)
00:49:35 <ehird> ...or observer BEFORE that declaration
00:50:15 <nooga> what are those /*@ ... @*/ things?
00:51:47 <ehird> Splint declarations
00:51:53 <ehird> aka "holy fucking pedantic declarations"
00:52:12 <ehird> basically once I'm done writing this hello world, if it doesn't work the world's collapsing
00:54:18 <HackEgo> * specify: determine the essential quality of \ * give a definition for the meaning of a word; "Define `sadness'" \ * determine the nature of; "What defines a good wine?"
00:56:18 <nooga> once i thought that such tool as splint might be nice, but then i ran away and never bothered to check how it actually works
00:58:27 <ehird> i _am_ using it in super-pedantic mode
00:58:41 <ehird> some with arguments
00:58:50 <ehird> which turns on a fuckload of others
00:59:29 <nooga> wonder if someone uses it that way
00:59:44 <nooga> perhaps even in NASA they piss on that
01:00:08 <ehird> hello.c:3:5: Name puts is reserved for the standard library
01:00:51 <ehird> so now i have to declare properties about puts...
01:00:52 <ehird> without using it :D
01:03:44 <Asztal> If you use gets, does it delete all your source files and tell you to quit?
01:07:03 <nooga> whaaaat eeeeeeeels is theeeeeere!?
01:08:12 <ehird> (The -f <filename> flag loads options from filename. —splint)
01:10:14 <oerjan> nooga: i have a hovercraft full!
01:11:41 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-08/splint-hello-world] % ./run-splint
01:11:41 <ehird> Splint 3.1.2 --- 11 Aug 2009
01:11:41 <ehird> Finished checking --- no warnings
01:11:42 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-08/splint-hello-world] % make
01:11:42 <ehird> cc -std=c89 -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -c -o hello.o hello.c
01:11:43 <ehird> cc hello.o -o hello
01:11:45 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-08/splint-hello-world] % ./hello
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01:12:27 <ehird> pikhq: I didn't even have to declare anything on puts
01:12:31 <ehird> It inferred everything for me
01:12:40 <ehird> so I just wrote my puts-return-value-checking hello world, then added:
01:12:40 <pikhq> And you can be sure it's not doing anything you don't want it to.
01:12:47 <ehird> /*@globals fileSystem@*/
01:12:47 <ehird> /*@modifies fileSystem@*/
01:12:59 <ehird> now, to accept user input
01:13:04 <ehird> (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
01:13:32 <ehird> I got my obsessive-compulsive splint to let hello world through
01:13:39 <pikhq> He just got "Hello, world" working.
01:13:43 <ehird> http://pastie.org/580730.txt?key=yyfbz2lopd5zbrenhux4ja
01:13:45 <ehird> err, s/int argc/void/
01:13:51 <ehird> stupid half-written code :D
01:14:02 <pikhq> The stunningly non-trivial Hello, world!
01:14:55 <pikhq> ehird: Hmm. When you write it like *that*, it doesn't seem that bad.
01:15:17 <ehird> Yeah, it's actually quite simple ... for now.
01:15:21 <ehird> Wait until I add a data structure.
01:15:28 <ehird> Of course, nobody uses splint like this :P
01:15:31 <pikhq> It just makes it so that you have to check *all* the error conditions.
01:15:44 <pikhq> And there's far, far too many of them in the C library.
01:16:54 <pikhq> (how many people knew that puts could error out?)
01:17:12 <ehird> (void) puts("foo");
01:17:16 <ehird> voila, splint's off your back
01:18:38 * ehird writes array.h, array.c
01:18:46 <ehird> (Can't go checking things ourselves now, can we?)
01:18:55 <ehird> Who needs performance anyway
01:19:04 <ehird> All the performance coders are using Haskell.
01:19:16 <nooga> $ time ruby words.rb > anagrams.txt
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01:33:41 <pikhq> Oh, farking brilliant.
01:33:54 <pikhq> Man carries gun to a town hall meeting where Obama is scheduled to appear.
01:34:05 <pikhq> While carrying a sign that says "It's time to water the tree of liberty."
01:36:37 <pikhq> Oh, and it was happening at a school. (you can't carry a gun within 1,000 feet of a school)
01:38:32 <pikhq> I think the Republicans appear more crazy by the day.
01:38:58 <pikhq> And they've appeared pretty damned crazy for a while now.
01:41:06 <ehird> http://www.fujinonbinos.com/ ← View source and grep <FONT
01:41:47 <ehird> if splint preprocesses
01:41:51 <ehird> how can it enforce cpp naming conventions
01:42:10 <ehird> it doesn't preprocess, it seems
01:42:16 <ehird> or rather, does it after enforcing cpp
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01:51:58 <ehird> pikhq: I lied; that doesn't actually compile cleanly.
01:51:58 <ehird> ...if you enable +strict-lib.
01:51:58 <ehird> pikhq: "main.c:8:9: Called procedure puts may access global stdout"
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01:51:58 <ehird> /*@globals fileSystem, stdout, *stdout, errno@*/
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01:52:26 <ehird> /*@globals fileSystem, stdout, *stdout, errno@*/
01:52:26 <ehird> /*@modifies fileSystem, stdout, *stdout, errno@*/
01:53:19 <ehird> pikhq: It feels ewwily implementation-exposing :P
01:54:25 <ehird> pikhq: It's not looking at system code, though
01:54:28 <ehird> It's in its definition file
01:54:34 <ehird> So it's not exposing anything
01:54:46 <ehird> just doing exactly what the C standard says
01:55:03 <ehird> int main(const int argumentCount, const char *const argumentValues[])
01:55:03 <ehird> printf("Hello, %s!\n", argumentValues[0]);
01:55:13 <ehird> argv is always at least one element long
01:55:26 <ehird> ...[1] works too though.
01:55:38 <ehird> pikhq: argv is terminated with a NULL
01:55:42 <ehird> too clever by half!
01:55:45 <pikhq> Yeah, I was about to say.
01:55:54 <ehird> would be nice to be warned about that, still
01:56:05 <ehird> ...okay, [2] works.
01:56:14 <ehird> Hello, PATH=/Users/ehird/bin:/usr/local/bin:/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/Users/ehird/.cabal/bin:/Applications/J/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin!
01:56:22 <ehird> pikhq: it's picking up the third environ parameter
01:56:36 <ehird> since it's an array
01:56:39 <ehird> and comes right after argv
01:56:47 <ehird> (ofc splint doesn't know that, but i'm talking about when i run it)
01:57:23 <pikhq> It's easy to forget that environ is also passed to main, isn't it?
01:57:35 <ehird> splint parse errors
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02:04:14 <ehird> if (argumentCount < 1)
02:04:15 <ehird> printf("usage: %s greetee\n", argumentValues[0]);
02:04:19 <ehird> wants me to check if I have an argv[0] :D
02:04:34 <ehird> ...HOW DO I DO THAT X_X
02:05:33 <ehird> http://www.splint.org/manual/html/sec9.html
02:06:03 <ehird> if (world_has_not_imploded)
02:06:05 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, check to make sure argv is not NULL?
02:07:16 <ehird> /*@requires maxRead(argumentValues) == (argumentValues + argumentCount)@*/
02:07:29 <ehird> main.c:16:32: Possible out-of-bounds read: argumentValues[0]
02:07:29 <ehird> Unable to resolve constraint:
02:07:29 <ehird> requires <parameter 2> >= 0 - <parameter 1>
02:08:06 <ehird> even unsigned it wants me to check it's greater to or equal than a minus number
02:08:20 <ehird> also (argumentCount < 1) is comparing incompatible types
02:09:21 <ehird> !NULL doesn't satisfy it
02:09:27 <ehird> it could still be out of bounds
02:09:41 <ehird> it's complaining about another line
02:09:51 <ehird> it never complained about one of my lines
02:10:26 <ehird> int main(const unsigned int argumentCount, const char *const argumentValues[])
02:15:41 <ehird> in if (argumentCount < (unsigned int)1)
02:15:45 <ehird> it accepts argumentValues[0]
02:15:47 <ehird> but in the else clause
02:17:14 <ehird> hmm okay splint is on crack, it's satisfied that !(argumentCount < (unsigned int)1) but wants proof that (argumentCount >= 1)
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02:17:34 <pikhq> If this were C++, it'd have a point.
02:17:51 <pikhq> Operator overloading's a bitch. ;)
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02:23:54 <ehird> My brain is melting.
02:24:13 <ehird> I KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE THE LAWS OF ARITHMETIC
02:24:33 <ehird> NOW WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM
02:24:54 <ehird> pikhq: I think it's going on the principle "If we can do something in one branch, we probably can't do it in another". :D
02:25:39 <ehird> it errors out on the other if I comment out the latter
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02:59:23 * Sgeo msgs someone about Circe repos
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03:02:32 <ehird> Sgeo: nobody cares about that shitty 100-line client.
03:02:49 <Sgeo> It has more than 100 lines!
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05:06:30 <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang where the file has to start with .LOG
05:29:11 <bsmntbombdood> would it be possible to stream video in a way that bitrate can gracefully degrade on a low bandwidth connection?
05:57:48 <pikhq> Yes, but it's not all that good.
06:06:42 <bsmntbombdood> you ought to be able to do it with n log n precomputation
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08:49:15 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang where the file has to start with .LOG <-- eh why?
08:49:53 <Sgeo> Windows Notepad, when it opens a file that starts with .LOG, automatically adds a datetime stamp
08:54:38 <Sgeo> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/260563
08:55:26 <Sgeo> http://www.ehow.com/how_4887314_turn-xp-notepad-log-book.html
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09:00:05 <Sgeo> Anyways, sleep now
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11:22:33 * oerjan thinks xkcd has a math error today
11:23:45 <oerjan> that may of course be a result of hallucination
11:28:30 <fizzie`> Well, "top prime's divisors'"...
11:28:54 <fizzie`> Maybe it's some artistic license to fit in the haikuistic form.
11:29:19 <oerjan> the problem is, that is just a weird way of saying the top prime
11:29:55 <oerjan> you have to take the product of _all_ the primes
11:30:39 <fizzie`> Why do I have some sort of stain in my name?
11:30:41 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
11:31:33 <fizzie> It's been noticed by many in the comment thread, but I guess those won't get any official justifications.
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13:25:42 <FireFly> http://xkcd.com/281/ <-- Is more true than I've previously thought
13:26:23 <Slereah_> I'm waiting for 4 different packages.
13:26:50 <Slereah_> One is supposed to arrive today
13:26:54 <FireFly> But I was bored, so I wrote a lil' module for my IRC bot, so it tells me when their location updates
13:27:14 <FireFly> Both of mine are from the states, so they're overseas too
13:29:14 <fizzie> I'm waiting for my wandering-around Finland-local package; it was "sorted" the day before yesterday, delivered to a wrong place yesterday, resent and "sorted" again yesterday-evening, and now there's no new entries in the tracking system.
13:29:26 <fizzie> Maybe they've decided to ship it to Africa now.
13:29:35 <Slereah_> Oh, do we complain about the postal system?
13:29:42 <Slereah_> Because I have a totally good one.
13:29:59 <Slereah_> See, thanks to the online tracking of packages, I knew that mine was coming yesterday
13:30:21 <Slereah_> So I woke up early, because it's a big one and it won't fit in the mailbox and I don't want to go to the post office to get it
13:30:39 <Slereah_> And at 4PM, I'm thinking 'It's not gonna arrive now.'
13:30:53 <Slereah_> So I go to my mailbox, and in there is a message from the mailman.
13:31:02 <Slereah_> "Your package is too big, come take it here"
13:31:19 <oklopol> how did he know you are gay
13:31:25 <oklopol> do you live in a pink house or something
13:31:34 <Slereah_> So I try to go to said postal center
13:31:47 <Slereah_> Turns out it's actually IN THE NEXT TOWN
13:32:00 <Slereah_> I try to go there, but even before I reach it, it's closing time.
13:32:13 <Slereah_> So now, he's supposed to come back today
13:32:29 <oklopol> Slereah_: if you were a mailman, would you ring a doorbell at 4am?
13:32:49 <fizzie> You need to set up a trap. Maybe one of those rope-with-a-loop type of things.
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13:34:23 <fizzie> I don't think the local post service tries to ring either. In fact, I'm not sure they even take larger-than-average packages with them, they just bring the note.
13:35:06 <Slereah_> Why is he coming back today to try again?
13:36:05 <Slereah_> I mean, if he's not going to ring, I'd rather go take it to the post office
13:36:06 <fizzie> That's different, of course. That sounds more like what the UPS-style delivery companies do. And I'm sure the postal system does have a direct-to-home delivery service, it's just that the default cheapest thing isn't it.
13:36:12 <Slereah_> Also most of the time, they do ring
13:36:31 <fizzie> Maybe you got a terminally shy deliveryperson.
13:37:10 <fizzie> He's intimidated by the size of your package.
13:39:57 <Slereah_> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1156265/Radioactive-paedophile-suspect-run-skipping-court.html
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13:47:55 <ehird> yeah party fuck yeah
13:49:06 <fizzie> "Partyhird" should have a meaning.
13:50:47 <ehird> fucked up kids names are fun
13:51:54 <ehird> "and this is Party Qwerty One Plus E To The Power Of I Times Pi Equals Zero Hird; One Plus E To The Power Of I Times Pi for short."
13:53:58 <ehird> speaking of xkcd, I will, one day, make http://xkcd.com/413/ a reality
13:54:03 <ehird> well, apart from the soul bit
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14:13:36 <oklopol> A BCD number is not the same as a straight binary number.
14:16:55 <ehird> 05:39:57 <Slereah_> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1156265/Radioactive-paedophile-suspect-run-skipping-court.html
14:16:56 * ehird scratches head at that URL
14:16:59 * ehird clicks, but... carefully
14:17:02 <oklopol> in fact it's such a useless comment i'm wondering if it's a gay joke
14:17:10 <oklopol> although those are pretty rare in our lecture materials
14:17:56 <ehird> oklopol: i saw someone say "duh, it's easy! <shitty explanation of binary>" to a guy who said he never really "got" BCD
14:19:06 <oklopol> is this guy a baker or a cleaner
14:20:11 <ehird> oklopol, not everyone who doesn't find exactly the same things easy as you is stupid :P
14:21:09 <oklopol> you only think that because you don't know what quotient rings are!
14:21:55 <oklopol> and in case that wasn't a very clear joke, yes, that is true, and i'm aware of that to some degree.
14:22:52 <ehird> quotient rings are like... when you have a wizard
14:23:00 <ehird> in a corridor (this corridor is the wizard)
14:23:07 <ehird> and he moves along (entering the universe)
14:23:12 <ehird> but then the corridor stops existing, yet it must
14:23:14 <ehird> so it appears again
14:23:20 <ehird> he is trapped forever
14:23:27 <ehird> he can't get out of the corridor. it's him.
14:23:29 <fizzie> I got into an argument because of BCD, since the lecturer of our "basics of digital systems" or whatever course insisted that absolutely all floating-point numbers everywhere use a powers-of-two representation, while in fact the TI-86 calculator uses something like 14-digit BCD floats with a decimal exponent in the [-999, 999] range.
14:23:47 <ehird> fizzie: Your university sounds... good :-P
14:24:30 <fizzie> I had to email the lecturer some proof afterwards, IIRC.
14:24:46 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, it's not like I'd be getting any new stories from anywhere.
14:25:49 <oklopol> ehird: i have a CS professor who ends all his emails in either "hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..." or "ooooooooooo...", and never uses a computer for anything else
14:26:06 <ehird> oklopol: never reads responses? :D
14:26:14 <ehird> also do those two endings make any more sense in finnish than they do in english
14:26:21 <oklopol> the reason for those repetitions i don't know, but probably has to do with the fact he has no idea how computers work
14:26:29 <ehird> if not I'm fairly sure you might be in an insane asylum not a university
14:26:32 <ehird> it's worth considering
14:26:53 <ehird> i haven't seen a counterexample yet, fizzie, you, Deewiant, BCD prof guy, esolang prof guy, hhhh/oooo prof guy
14:26:56 <oklopol> he's actually a pretty brilliant man for his age
14:26:56 <ehird> worth considering.
14:27:13 <ehird> oklopol: so what he's just trying to type "h"? xD
14:27:21 <oklopol> no matter what you ask him, after a while in solitary confinement in his room, he'll have a perfect answer and understanding of the matter
14:28:38 <oklopol> ehird: i have no idea why those h's and o's appear, and i'm the only one who gets them
14:28:55 <ehird> maybe it's code for "will you marry me"
14:29:01 <fizzie> We once found a ~/dead.letter file from the root account of the Linux server in our high school, which had some real content written by a math teacher first, and then a long string of stuff like "^X ^C ^D ^X ^X ^[ exit quit exit exit" and finally the Finnish sentences "millä tämän tösselön saa tallettamaan? ei tadia [sic] toimia."
14:29:05 <ehird> h or o is 1 or 0, the repeating is just so it stands out
14:29:09 <ehird> chronological order
14:29:13 <fizzie> Oklopol can translate the Finnish part so that it preserves the tone.
14:29:37 <FireFly> "BCD prof guy, esolang prof guy, hhhh/oooo prof guy"
14:29:50 <ehird> FireFly: yeah i make up names pretty spontaneously
14:29:53 <ehird> hard to shake it after
14:30:00 <oklopol> fizzie: i'm not sure i can translate "tssel" :D
14:30:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Haha, he must've used vi[m]
14:30:20 <FireFly> Sounds like the name of some swedish island to me
14:30:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Or mail(1)
14:30:31 <ehird> No newline in what fizzie said
14:30:35 <ehird> so it wouldn't cause an exit
14:31:04 <ehird> ^C and ^[ would have exited insert mode
14:31:28 <fizzie> There were newlines, though, I just compressed a bit. I'm not sure if there was the traditional single-dot-line attempted.
14:31:37 <FireFly> 'then a long string of stuff like "^X ^C ^D'
14:31:43 <FireFly> ^X ^K ^C ^D would've been nice
14:31:47 <Deewiant> Oh, ^C leaves insert mode as well
14:32:14 <fizzie> I don't remember details, but it was clear that a very large number of keyboard commands had been attempted.
14:32:16 <Deewiant> Yeah, that one I just didn't notice at first
14:32:37 <ehird> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2004/06/03/147583.aspx <3
14:33:00 <fizzie> The BCD lecturer wasn't very high in the hierarchy, certainly no professor; maybe some sort of post-graduate student.
14:34:20 <ehird> everyone in university is either a student or a professor, don't you know the basic hierarchy of everythings
14:35:33 <ehird> also they all have crazy white hair
14:35:40 <ehird> are all male, are all like 70
14:35:56 <ehird> and all wear white lab coats all the time
14:36:45 <ehird> this is know to be true.
14:38:17 -!- randomit1 has joined.
14:38:59 <ehird> randomit1: a few possibilities here
14:39:29 <Slereah_> Ayn Rand never forgets her 1's
14:39:44 <ehird> yes he might be a heretic though.
14:39:46 <ehird> you can never tell
14:40:37 <ehird> every day a random first-year (= year-1) MIT student gets to come on IRC and blab
14:41:36 <oklopol> "randomit" is finnish and means "randoms"
14:42:06 <ehird> anyway goddamn randomit1 put us out of our speculation
14:42:24 <fizzie> Wait, that's an extra D.
14:42:27 <ehird> hey it's the six degrees of wikipedia guy
14:42:35 <ehird> i found this out using hostname, realname and google
14:43:23 <ehird> "22/7 (pi) is a non-terminating, non-repeating decimal. It is an irrational number." —yahoo answers
14:43:23 <fizzie> Obligatory cyber-stalking procedure has now been completed?
14:43:34 <oklopol> i'd say we get a bit overenthusiastic over new people
14:43:39 <ehird> oklopol: they're so rare!
14:43:44 <ehird> we can harvest their organs and stuff.
14:44:09 <oklopol> also let me point out mine and fizzie's almost simultaneous stalking stoppery effort
14:44:13 <ehird> it's kind of annoying when they don't say anything though.
14:44:33 <ehird> oklopol: hey I'd whoised just to look
14:44:43 <ehird> but then googled the name since he was stupidly refusing to talk!
14:44:55 <ehird> then i saw that the website was .de which my brain had memorised his hostname as being
14:44:59 <ehird> okay this isn't sounding any less creepy
14:45:08 <fizzie> Yes, it is certainly stupid not to talk to an overtly crazy person.
14:45:42 <oklopol> ehird: it's not .de though
14:45:52 <ehird> http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~mu/wiki/
14:46:07 <ehird> spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie
14:47:17 <fizzie> Next, find out his hair color and foot size and habitual body odor.
14:47:49 <ehird> he's in here, it's fairly safe to assume that his body odour is more or less indescribably bad
14:48:12 <ehird> hair color, I'm gonna say black or dark brown, there seems to be commonness of that among geeknerdthingies
14:48:20 <ehird> either really tiny or really big
14:48:28 <ehird> (also applies to nevermind
14:48:45 <ehird> oklopol: you're platonically not actually in here, though
14:49:18 <ehird> sorry it's .ie not .de
14:49:24 <ehird> i was wondering why its site was in english for a second there
14:50:05 <ehird> randomit1: please don't make all this effort wasted
14:51:05 <oklopol> it seems even boolean algebras are pretty after a few courses of algebra
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14:51:28 <ehird> algebra is indian magics
14:51:48 <ehird> we're stalking a new guy who hasn't said anything
14:51:55 <ehird> he's the six degrees of wikipedia guy, and uh that's about it
14:52:11 <GregorR-L> randomit1: http://codu.org/5ctj/ woooh :P
14:52:12 <ehird> stalking people is very boring when their name gives a relevant #1 google result
14:52:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: he's been in for like 5-10 minutes and hasn't said a thing
14:53:27 <fizzie> It's the standard "play dead" response when confronted by a large, wild animal.
14:54:31 <oklopol> ehird: that you are a very small, domesticated animal
14:54:50 <fizzie> The ferocity makes up for any deficiencies in size.
14:55:08 -!- randomity has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
14:55:17 <ehird> that's not randomit1
14:55:20 <oklopol> so it was just a nick change
14:55:28 <ehird> i haven't seen randomity in here before though
14:55:33 <ehird> not the same connection
14:56:03 <fizzie> It does sort of explain the name; "randomit1" is a reasonable alt-nick for "randomity".
14:56:56 <fizzie> First signgs of any randomity in my logs are from 2009-07-07 and there's even some talk.
14:57:58 <GregorR-L> I decree that ehird's reaction is randumbity.
15:08:16 <ehird> http://imgur.com/9qS5U.png The first person to read this shorthand and tell me the English text gets a cookie.
15:08:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: it isn't
15:09:08 <ehird> GregorR-L: Protip: The characters are all shoved together.
15:09:13 <ehird> Also, you can clearly see commas.
15:09:13 <GregorR-L> In that case, I was expecting it to be scanned at more than 2dpi
15:09:19 <ehird> It's not a scanning.
15:09:22 <ehird> It's an accurate computer rendering.
15:09:42 <ehird> Srsly, if you find the commas, colons and the letter that occurs a lot, you've basically cracked it.
15:10:32 <ehird> I can read parts of it, anyway. Would need more practice to read more effectively. But it'd be fine for notes, since you'd basically remember what you're writing anyway.
15:11:54 <ehird> Oh, final hint: It's two columns; the second comes after the first.
15:12:10 <ehird> No semantic reason, just using the space more effectively.
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15:13:07 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1,5&comics=92,07,1128&strip
15:14:58 <ehird> It wouldn't be nearly as short without my addition.
15:15:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: stfu, I didn't do that at all
15:15:04 <nooga> Congratulations! You found Jesus in 3 clicks! yay
15:15:07 <ehird> no regular font was involved in the process
15:15:39 <nooga> from a canadian hockey player
15:15:55 <GregorR-L> -> Canada -> Christianity -> Jesus
15:17:33 <ehird> what's the different kind of restarts
15:18:05 <GregorR-L> Normally it prevents you from revisiting a page you've seen before.
15:18:11 <GregorR-L> So the more you go through the more difficult it gets.
15:18:19 <GregorR-L> But you can also restart that data if you're a wimp.
15:19:00 <ehird> oklopol: If you want, an extra hint about the shorthand: The direct mappable result from it is 546 characters long; the text originally used and what you are meant to comprehend is 725 characters long.
15:19:36 <oklopol> what? where do the rest go
15:19:46 <oklopol> do you mean some characters just disappear
15:19:53 <nooga> Roman_Catholic_Church
15:19:54 <ehird> oklopol: if you can get at the 546 long text, your brain can fill in the rest semi-easily
15:20:17 <ehird> well, not that easily, but the source text isn't very comprehendable really
15:20:26 <ehird> oklopol: I'll help you by giving you one of the lord's prayer
15:20:35 <ehird> not that you'll even bother
15:20:38 <ehird> but i like to think you would.
15:23:31 <ehird> http://imgur.com/GK8QT.png
15:23:35 <ehird> lord's prayer, with linebreaks and shit
15:24:24 <ehird> really, knowing the linebreaks there's some very obvious structure in some words
15:25:45 <oklopol> okay much harder than i though
15:26:01 <ehird> oklopol: protip: first word of the second line
15:26:09 <ehird> second word of the fourth line
15:26:13 <ehird> "hallowed", "will"
15:26:33 <oklopol> if i need more hints, i'll ask
15:36:37 <oklopol> okay, i don't want more hints, but i'm not going to crack it now
15:37:21 <oklopol> i only do the systematic approach well, and i don't have time for that
15:37:33 <ehird> it's not anything special
15:37:38 <ehird> the chars are just bunched up making it look hard
15:38:08 <oklopol> not sure how i'm supposed to respond to that
15:38:09 <GregorR-L> I drew a diagram of the communication done by a hypothetical program. For the part that's done over the Internet, I drew a big bubble and labeled it "WEBERNETS". My sponsor here was confused :P
15:39:14 <pikhq> ehird: That is not shorthand.
15:40:13 <pikhq> ehird: Shorthand scripts are human scripts.
15:40:20 <GregorR-L> pikhq: ehird doesn't understand that "shorthand" isn't a general word for all forms of smaller writing.
15:40:24 <pikhq> That is not human. Thus, not shorthand. QED.
15:40:33 <ehird> GregorR-L: That's because it isn't, idiot.
15:40:43 <pikhq> ehird: ... But it is.
15:40:44 <pikhq> ehird: Erm. Isn't.
15:40:56 <ehird> But hey, why not make assumptions about something that you've said is incomprehensible to you?
15:41:08 <pikhq> ehird: Shorthand is a script that is easier and faster to write than normal script.
15:41:31 <pikhq> Unless you regularly write out bitmaps, that isn't shorthand. :P
15:41:41 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, uh, I could have drawn it by hand
15:41:53 <ehird> funnily enough, computers can draw nowadays
15:42:00 <ehird> I didn't because it wasn't needed
15:42:09 <pikhq> ehird: ... You fail.
15:42:30 <pikhq> Pitman is a shorthand system. That is a binary text encoding.
15:42:32 <ehird> if i wrote a computer program that spit out a blocky version of gregg's shorthand
15:42:38 <ehird> then it wouldn't be shorthand>?
15:42:42 <ehird> there are letter forms there
15:42:52 <ehird> "I can't read it" != "it's a bitmap representing binary"
15:43:02 <pikhq> Oh, there are actual letter forms? That's not shorthand, that's longhand. :P
15:43:17 <ehird> Letter forms that mesh together, yes.
15:43:21 <ehird> Not all of them though.
15:43:47 <ehird> Not all the letters are written out.
15:43:53 <ehird> Besides, it's way more concise than writing them out normally.
15:46:40 <ehird> pikhq: I'll prove it to you
15:46:48 <ehird> Give me some text, I'll give you an image of it.
15:48:28 <oklopol> ehird: so is that meant to be a script a human writes faster than the usual one?
15:48:54 <oklopol> if yes, i doubt it succeeds at that, if not, what's your definition of shorthand?
15:49:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
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15:49:17 <ehird> The writing time is probably about the same or a little shorter; but even a little bit is a great improvement. The major advantage is that it's much smaller.
15:49:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:49:41 <ehird> You can fit many notes on one piece of paper quite quickly and then read them semi-easily later on.
15:50:30 <oklopol> i don't think that's one of the usual things "shorthand" implies
15:50:42 <ehird> I don't see why no
15:50:57 <oklopol> if it's in your definition, then that's definitely shorthand
15:51:08 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, the actual writing will be significantly shorter
15:51:17 <ehird> there's much less to write
15:51:20 <oklopol> i'm just trying to resolve the conflict, because i'm annoyed by your definition conflicts
15:51:21 <ehird> there's a small cognitive overhead, though
15:51:24 <ehird> which would balance it out
15:51:31 <oklopol> as i am by all definition conflicts
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15:56:46 <fizzie> There is a microSD card slot in this GPRS/3G/etc. USB-stick-modem, but none of the instructions say what it's for, except that a microSD card is not included. I guess it shows up as a mass storage device, I'm just not quite sure why it's there.
15:57:29 <fizzie> Oh, and quite many of these sticks start out as pretending to be a mass storage device containing the (Windows) drivers; then you need to poke them so that they transmogrify to a USB serial device.
15:57:52 -!- Asztal has joined.
15:57:56 <ehird> HURRRRRRRR I'LL JUST POKE OUT OF YOUR LAPTOP
15:57:57 <pikhq> fizzie: That is so dumb.
15:58:03 <ehird> HURF DURF I'M A STICK
15:58:06 <ehird> DO NOT COME NEAR ME
15:58:08 <ehird> OR I WILL POKE YOU
15:58:12 <pikhq> "I HATE USB SPECS. MUST HAVE WINDOWS DRIVERS!"
15:58:16 <ehird> I TALK USB ^______________^
15:58:29 <oklopol> ehird: okay i think i've crached it, actually
15:58:36 <ehird> I crached your mom
15:59:33 <oklopol> took me longer than it should've, maybe, but as i've mentioned, i don't like thinking outside the box, not at all the kind of puzzle i'm good at
15:59:48 <ehird> so, what do you think it is
15:59:58 <oklopol> also i mean i crached the encryption, haven't looked at the actual code yet
16:00:31 <ehird> there's no encryption
16:00:35 <ehird> do you mean you decoded the letter forms or
16:00:43 <oklopol> i mean what i obviously mean
16:03:42 <ehird> Judge Leonard Davis of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas issued a permanent injunction that "prohibits Microsoft from selling or importing to the United States any Microsoft Word products that have the capability of opening .XML, .DOCX or DOCM files (XML files) containing custom XML," according to a statement released by attorneys for the plantiff, i4i.
16:03:50 <ehird> Die, Microsoft! Die!
16:03:57 <ehird> Toronto-based i4i sued Microsoft in March 2007 alleging that the Redmond,Wash.-based software giant violated its 1998 patent (No. 5,787,449) for a document system that eliminated the need for manually embedded formatting codes.
16:04:20 <oklopol> ehird: "And the priests told M-someone..."?
16:04:59 <ehird> "M-someone" doesn't inspire confidence
16:05:01 <oklopol> okay, then i can read it, and yes, it was trivial
16:05:13 <ehird> what's the m-someone
16:06:05 <oklopol> it's just m and a comma isn't it
16:06:41 <ehird> anyway you probably dislike it because it's trivial eh
16:06:45 <oklopol> then why would you expect me to guess it without reading more
16:07:23 <oklopol> well as i suck at that sort of puzzles, it was relatively tedious to crack.
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16:22:03 <ehird> I'm so glad project Xanadu didn't take off
16:22:21 <ehird> [[Every document can contain a royalty mechanism at any desired degree of granularity to ensure payment on any portion accessed, including virtual copies ("transclusions") of all or part of the document.
16:22:22 <ehird> Every Xanadu service provider can charge their users at any rate they choose for the storage, retrieval and publishing of documents.]]
16:22:35 <ehird> unenforcable, illogical DRM built right in...
16:28:52 <fizzie> There were OS X drivers on the fake mass-storage thing, so I installed those; the (very ugly, operator-themed) control program found the UMTS network, but said "general error: 1002" when trying to connect. So I told the laptop to restart (there were two modems in the network port list and everything), and now it no longer boots.
16:29:08 <fizzie> I'm used to incompetence by the telephone operators, but this is on another level entirely.
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16:30:20 <fizzie> There's the OS X boot screen (grey apple logo with the round animated twirly thing below it), but at some point a black square (approximately 1/3rd of the screen width/height) appears in the middle, and the animated thing freezes up.
16:30:45 <ehird> i'm tempted to try and debug that over irc
16:31:13 <fizzie> I'm going to go make some food now, I doubt you can debug that without any assistance from me. Though it'd certainly be impressive.
16:31:27 <ehird> AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
16:31:31 <ehird> to start it up again
16:31:34 <ehird> all you have to do is
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16:39:48 <pikhq> nooga: 'Tis awful.
16:40:10 <ehird> True, but not in the way you mean.
16:40:41 <nooga> templates were the most stupid ideas on earth
16:41:15 <fizzie> Well, it did boot in the hold-shift "Safe Boot" mode. Going to try to deinstall those drivers; even if they worked, the control application was so incredibly ugly I can't see myself using it.
16:41:35 <pikhq> nooga: With the worst possible implementation.
16:41:38 <ehird> so uh why do all laptops suck!
16:41:45 <ehird> is important question of importantness.
16:42:01 <nooga> stroustrup was on acid
16:42:02 <pikhq> Such a verbose notation for the untyped lambda calculus.
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17:00:30 <ehird> [16:41] ehird: so uh why do all laptops suck!
17:00:31 <ehird> [16:41] ehird: is important question of importantness.
17:02:58 <ehird> oklopol: they're all compromises. compromises of stupid.
17:03:07 <nooga> pikhq: http://www.osl.iu.edu/~kyross/templ-interp.html ohhhh
17:04:13 <ehird> either they're gigantic and you can't fit them on your lap, or they're really hot and you can't fit them on your lap, or they're really heavy and you can't loosely carry them around, or they have a shitty battery life (anything under six hours, basically; preferably 7+) so you can't go somewhere without worrying about charging them, or they have a dog-slow processor
17:04:24 <ehird> oh, or they have a glossy screen and you can't use them in daylight at all
17:05:04 <oklopol> ehird: right, shitty battery life
17:05:16 <ehird> the thinkpad x200 comes pretty close; like nine hours battery life with the 9-cell battery, runs cool, is just 12" diagonal, has a matte screen, with the 9-cell battery is like 3.5lbs (= 1.58kg)
17:05:22 <ehird> and has a proper core 2 duo 2.4ghz processor
17:05:35 <ehird> stick an ssd in it and that weight goes down a bit too, speed up as well
17:05:54 <ehird> disadvantages: doesn't have a trackpad, just a nipple mouse (may be a plus depending on which you prefer),
17:05:54 <nooga> macbooks are pretty well designed
17:06:01 <ehird> apparently the backlight isn't good enough for outdoor use
17:06:18 <nooga> ibms always had those uncool lcds
17:06:37 <ehird> nooga: the regular macbook is almost 1.5x the weight of the x200 with a 9-cell battery
17:06:44 <ehird> and get four hours less battery life
17:06:47 <ehird> and is a bit bigger
17:06:50 <ehird> nooga: uncool? you mean matte?
17:06:56 <ehird> as in, not GLOSSY GLOSSY REFLECTING ALL OVER THE PLACE
17:06:58 <ehird> ISN'T YOUR FACE SO PRETTY
17:07:05 <ehird> I'M SURE YOU WANT TO SEE IT INSTEAD OF MY PIXELS
17:07:11 <ehird> LET'S GO OUTSIDE SO WE CAN SEE EVEN MORE OF YOUR FACE!
17:07:16 <nooga> my HP got 3h battery life under linux ;F
17:07:23 <ehird> yes, that's exactly what i look for in a display, unusability
17:07:40 <nooga> glossy displays are really bad
17:07:49 <ehird> nooga: all macs are glossy
17:08:03 <ehird> so i don't know what you're trying to say with "uncool"
17:08:04 <nooga> i mean the colors and quailty of picture was poor on every ibm i looked at
17:08:19 <ehird> and the reviews of the screens are generally positive
17:08:26 <ehird> also some thinkpads have LED backlights nowadays
17:08:28 <nooga> it was long time ago
17:08:28 <ehird> which will be great
17:08:29 <ehird> dunno if the x200 does
17:09:01 <ehird> so here's my list of changes to make the x200 absolutely perfect
17:09:21 <ehird> - make the display LED-backlit, this should fix the supposed (ok, very anecdotal; just one review) outdoors problem;
17:09:38 <ehird> - maybe make it a little lighter with the 9-cell
17:09:52 <ehird> the list for most other laptops is like 10 items
17:10:46 <ehird> (the list for the toshiba portege r600, as far as I can tell, is "make the processor regular core 2 duo instead of low-voltage without changing anything else at all", but obviously that's rather unrealistic)
17:10:48 <nooga> brb reboot, my stable OS X 10.5.8 is unstable again
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17:25:26 <nooga> my OS X booted for 10 minutes!
17:25:51 <pikhq> Might I suggest using a quicker-booting OS?
17:26:08 <pikhq> Like... a Disk Operating System?
17:26:16 <ehird> pikhq: macs boot from power button in 15-20 seconds to desktop
17:26:18 <nooga> it always booted in 30 secs
17:26:27 <pikhq> ehird: I'm kidding.
17:26:28 <ehird> it's not OS X's fault he's added a bunch of shit
17:26:41 <pikhq> ehird: I'm well-aware that OS X has reasonable boot times.
17:26:51 <pikhq> However, nooga is easy to mock.
17:26:55 <pikhq> (and DOS boots faster!)
17:27:01 <nooga> usually 20-30 secs
17:27:17 <nooga> something strange happened and i can't even see what
17:27:20 <ehird> do you think I could pay Lenovo to change the ThinkPad X200 to be just awesome enough that my misgivings melt away
17:28:58 <nooga> you could manually replace the display
17:29:20 <ehird> the display is almost perfect
17:29:28 <ehird> just give it an LED backlight
17:29:35 <ehird> but, kind of impossible to do manually
17:29:41 <ehird> esp since it's high-dpi
17:29:57 <ehird> it has the same res as the 13" macbook/macbook air/macbook pro in 12"
17:30:08 <nooga> probably they are 12something perfect displays with led backlight to buy
17:30:11 <ehird> anyway that can't fix the fact that the 9-cell battery bulges a little
17:30:22 <ehird> well i say a little
17:30:24 <ehird> or the fact that there isn't a trackpad
17:30:32 <ehird> nooga: not really, no
17:30:50 <nooga> one of those mini ones on bt
17:31:12 <ehird> nooga: erm you realise that i wouldn't be wanting to pay the premium for a 12" laptop and <2kg and 9-hour battery life if I didn't want something I can just pick up and use forever
17:31:20 <ehird> a mouse kinda breaks that
17:32:21 <ehird> it's so close though
17:32:31 <ehird> adding a trackpad would be, I think, perfectly possible with basically no compromise
17:32:38 <ehird> making the display LED obviously is too (well, you compromise on price)
17:32:53 <ehird> making the 9-cell stick out less would be a challenge, but I wouldn't mind if the first two were done
17:33:00 <ehird> you'd have extra space
17:33:05 <ehird> since the trackpad would make it a little deeper
17:33:20 <nooga> omg it's so cool that iPhone OS is almost BSD ;d
17:33:41 <nooga> i could even use STL if i want
17:35:46 <pikhq> Uh, yeah... iPhone OS is heavily patched OS X...
17:35:48 <ehird> hmm apparently the x200 might be led from googling
17:35:59 <ehird> and there's still the claim that it isn't bright enough for outdoor use
17:37:16 <ehird> the x301 has it, but it only goes up to 1.40ghz low-voltage
17:37:33 <pikhq> So, of course it's almost BSD. It's a bastardisation of the hybrid of NeXT, BSD, SysV, and Mac OS, with a couple splashes of GNU.
17:37:33 <ehird> and since it has a 13" display, I can't pilfer it and put it in the x200
17:39:05 <ehird> swing and a miss, so many times
17:39:11 <ehird> just make a good laptop ff
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17:46:46 <nooga> pikhq: i can't tell the difference
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17:47:07 <nooga> got bash, got gcc, userland programming feels the same
17:47:24 <pikhq> ... Yeah, that's UNIX.
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17:59:18 <ehird> lenovo ships in 9 business days
17:59:25 <ehird> and there's no option for faster shipping
18:05:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: Shaddup.
18:05:45 <GregorR-L> Sweet, my sarcasm was visible EVEN IN TEXT.
18:06:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm not complaining just because I'm impatient, FYI
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18:16:16 <nooga> pikhq: so it IS UNIX?
18:16:34 <pikhq> nooga: Like I said, it's heavily patched OS X.
18:16:44 <pikhq> Which is to say, it's heavily patched UNIX.
18:17:10 <GregorR-L> "Heavily patched OS X" = "UNIX patched so far it's unrecognizable" probably :P
18:17:32 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No, most of the patching is at the GUI level.
18:21:13 <fizzie> Crazitude. I got that 3G stick to work so that I try to run the "ISP" application, let it find the network and set the device up, press connect there and get a "error 1002", then sneakily open up OS X's built in "internet connect" tool and tell *that* to connect.
18:25:32 <nooga> probably pikhq i right
18:42:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: uhh, no
18:42:12 <ehird> OS X is certified unix
18:42:54 <GregorR-L> UNIX is more than a certification.
18:43:35 <pikhq> It is a state of mind.
18:43:56 <GregorR-L> A state of mind that OS X is SORELY lacking in.
18:44:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: Translation of what you are attempting to say:
18:44:32 <ehird> "I hate OS X; why must the facts oppose me so?"
18:45:04 <GregorR-L> I'm not denying that OS X is UNIX.
18:45:12 <GregorR-L> OS X is certainly more a true UNIX than Linux is.
18:45:32 <GregorR-L> But that's just a certification thing; there's more to UNIX than the certification.
18:45:46 <ehird> Yeah, uh, GregorR-L? Shut up. What you are saying: UNIX = the GUI.
18:45:55 <ehird> I open a terminal, and I get 100% unix, no exceptions, no "wrong state of mind".
18:46:08 <ehird> Unless your argument is "ZOMG!! THEY CHANGED THE PATH NAMES!!"
18:46:15 <ehird> In which case, consider yourself stabbed.
18:46:37 <GregorR-L> In spite of the fact that the path names are, in fact, a part of what makes the look and feel of UNIX?
18:47:55 <ehird> Ladies and gentlemen, I give to you GregorR-L. He is so desperate for a rational reason to hate OS X and claim it's not a UNIX that he resorts to "they renamed the paths".
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18:49:34 <GregorR-L> You are an idiot ehird. Truly. This is not my rationale for hating OS X. This is a totally unrelated note on the look-and-feel of the BETTER part of OS X. Many of these things are IMPROVEMENTS from UNIX. Frameworks being one example. But all these improvements make it LESS LIKE UNIX.
18:49:50 <ehird> Damn you an angry man.
18:50:14 <GregorR-L> You're putting words into my mouth. Stupid, stupid words.
18:50:48 <ehird> Your face is stupid.
18:51:05 <oklopol> i always liked GregorR-L's face
18:51:25 <GregorR-L> I don't. My giant nose gets in the way :P
18:51:40 <ehird> The topic of #esoteric is now GregorR-L's face.
18:51:44 <oklopol> well i'm not saying it's pretty
18:52:01 <oklopol> (note that i'm not saying it isn't either)
18:52:13 <ehird> Why'dyou have to do that last line
18:52:43 <oklopol> because this is such a weird thing to talk about i want to make absolutely sure you see that i'm being absolutely serious.
18:55:37 <GregorR-L> That was a pretty powerful conversation killer there :P
18:56:01 <FireFly> [19:52:58] <oklopol> well i'm not saying it's pretty
18:56:01 <FireFly> [19:52:58] <oklopol> (note that i'm not saying it isn't either)
18:56:01 <FireFly> [19:52:58] <ehird> Why'dyou have to do that last line
18:56:02 <FireFly> [19:52:58] <oklopol> because this is such a weird thing to talk about i want to make absolutely sure you see that i'm being absolutely serious.
18:56:17 <GregorR-L> I don't know what it means to have an "interesting" face necessarily :P
18:56:36 <ehird> anyway let's talk about the minutiae of gregor's face to weird him out
18:56:42 <ehird> quick, assemble all the pictures you can
18:56:48 <oklopol> GregorR-L: that if i saw you on the street, i'd probably consider you a human
18:57:11 <ehird> oklopol: that's what he wants you to think
18:57:14 <ehird> he's a NWO reptilian
18:57:38 <fizzie> Now there's something to put in the CV for any future job-seeking: "oklopol would probably consider me a human".
18:58:39 <ehird> http://www.facebook.com/profile/pic.php?uid=AAAAAQAQo5IfP_eRlyVPnmMf7lzfAQAAAArtQbYncsgD5DU6UUxM0zQo
18:58:39 <ehird> A closeup of his face!
18:58:46 <ehird> Thank you, Google Images.
18:59:04 <ehird> I estimate it to have about five billion atoms.
19:00:50 <ehird> sweet, Háskóli means University in icelandic
19:01:37 <oklopol> i wonder why real world haskell doesn't mention that!
19:01:53 <ehird> they're dumber than a pile of brickrockshits!!!
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19:08:57 <ehird> So, people are stupid.
19:09:15 <oklopol> so have you noticed youtube comments are kinda stupid
19:10:29 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but people and things are almost as stupid
19:10:42 <oklopol> Slereah_: are you saying someone has noticed that before
19:10:56 <oklopol> because it's kinda subtle.
19:11:30 <Slereah_> Well no, that's why I said it was novel
19:11:45 <ehird> i think xkcd did a comic about that once
19:11:51 <ehird> he always sees the subtle side of things.
19:13:40 <FireFly> Theres the one about the function to force people to listen to their comments before sending them
19:13:43 <oklopol> and here i thought that comic was about being able to sing along with the music you're listening to
19:13:52 <oklopol> i mean. with the reader thingie.
19:13:58 <ehird> FireFly: that doesnt' exist
19:14:03 <ehird> xkcd has never done that.
19:14:15 <ehird> FireFly is just stupi
19:16:48 <oklopol> getting kinda nonsensical, people.
19:16:57 <ehird> YOUUUUUUUUURRRRRRR MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM
19:17:04 <ehird> IS NONNNNNNNNNNSENNNNNNNNNSIIIIIIIIIIIIIICAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL:LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
19:17:04 <oklopol> what perceptional gems i sow today.
19:17:18 <ehird> perceptional de,s dems dem sde
19:18:26 <nooga> people:elope pole lope plop pele pope ole lop pop pep
19:18:47 <ehird> Elope the people who pl0p your mony
19:18:59 <ehird> Elope the pole people who pl0p your mony
19:19:02 <oklopol> i knew this one guy who learned "elope" in a dictionary, then used it through high school in every situation possible
19:19:07 <ehird> Elope the pole people who pl0p your loping mony pope
19:19:14 <oklopol> i also know a guy named plop
19:19:26 <GregorR-L> oklopol: How many situations to use the word "elope" are there?
19:19:32 <oklopol> although these two guys are actually childhood friends, and were both in that high school
19:19:36 <ehird> Elope the popping, lopping pole pep people who pl0p your loping mony pope pele - ole!
19:19:43 <oklopol> GregorR-L: surprisingly many, unfortunately!
19:20:05 <oklopol> actually plop was once here
19:20:19 <ehird> is his name... really plop
19:20:33 <oklopol> more like something totally different
19:20:39 <ehird> yeaaaaah, and you're oklopol omniovorol.
19:20:55 <ehird> or omnivorol, whatever
19:20:59 <ehird> oklopol: what, really?
19:21:03 <ehird> your parents are awesome.
19:21:09 <ehird> or your deed poll, depending
19:21:15 <nooga> almost:stoma molts moats malts loams atoms mats alms laos stoa last loam alts lost soma lots malt alto slot mast slat atom moas moat slam also most oast salt oats olms alt oat sam sat olm mat mas lot sot las lam
19:21:44 <oklopol> ehird: i've told my name numerous times :D
19:22:06 <ehird> Almost molts the stoma moats of atoms; malts, mats and alms last Sam alt I give up
19:22:15 <ehird> oklopol: not when I'm around :P
19:22:26 <oklopol> ehird: maybe not, maybe not
19:22:32 <nooga> anagrams are awesome
19:22:54 <ehird> "Almost molts the stoma moats of atoms" sounds awesome
19:23:56 <oklopol> i haven't done anagrams that much, more of a palindrome guy
19:24:01 <GregorR-L> I don't want to know what a stoma moat is.
19:24:42 <pikhq> I know what a stoma is and what a moat is. I don't want the combination.
19:27:10 <nooga> lament:mental mantle mantel meant leant metal late elan name amen etal etna tale lame lane neat melt lean ante leat lent meat male malt tame mane teal team mean mate meal man mat let lea men lam met eta elm eat net ate ant tan tea ale alt ten
19:27:36 <nooga> mental lame team ate late tea
19:28:25 <ehird> haha i just remembered what a stoma is :D
19:28:59 <ehird> oklopol: do an anagram palindrome
19:29:06 <ehird> also fit an acronym in there while you're busy being awesome
19:30:06 <ehird> Men named lament's mental mantle meant late leant metal.
19:31:43 <ehird> Let M be the mental mantle of men named lament.
19:31:56 <ehird> M meant, when it communicated some thing, P.
19:32:06 <ehird> P is metal that was leant and was not returned on time (late).
19:33:22 <nooga> i woder if it's possible to teach machine grammar and build a lexical knowledge base using raw data like wordlists and a clever contraption working like re-captcha
19:33:39 <ehird> isn't that just nlp stuff
19:33:55 <oklopol> yes, when you lean, you better return on time or your back starts hurting
19:34:07 <pikhq> nooga: Possible? Probably. Feasible? Questionable.
19:34:45 <nooga> pikhq: nooga: Possible? Probably. Feasible? Questionable. && ehird: nooga: useless << WE'RE ON #ESOTERIC !
19:35:07 <ehird> guess what else is possible, unfeasible and useless
19:35:23 <nooga> billions of things
19:35:24 <GregorR-L> You spelling "infeasible" properly?
19:35:28 <ehird> jumping off a cliff and landing on a trampoline, surviving and jumping back up
19:35:39 <oklopol> GregorR-L: see also my leaning joke!
19:35:57 <ehird> oklopol: oh i just got that
19:35:58 <nooga> ehird: that's not awesome
19:36:11 <ehird> nooga: aren't you polish
19:37:33 <oklopol> LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, LET ME INTRODUCE TO YOU THIS DUDE NAMED EHIRD WHO IS SO STUPID HE HAS TO RESORT TO FACTS ABOUT LESSER PEOPLES TO WIN AN ARGUMENT.
19:38:46 <nooga> really weird formal proof
19:39:11 <nooga> indirect one i'd say
19:39:46 <oklopol> i'd say it wasn't very POLISHED
19:42:04 <nooga> polish:spoil hips soil slop hops slip lips lisp silo shop oils ship posh oil lop sip lip hop soh his sop hip
19:43:52 <ehird> Silo shop spoils, soils Polish hips with posh oils; lopped lip sips hops, his sop slop lisps, slips, soh...
19:44:12 <ehird> ("An anglicised spelling of so" :P)
19:44:52 <ehird> ("(music) A syllable used in solfège to represent the fifth note of a major scale." :P)
19:45:44 <ehird> say "Silo shop spoils, soils Polish hips with posh oils; lopped lip sips hops, his sop slop lisps, slips, soh..." ten times fast
19:48:56 <pikhq> Solfège abuse makes me cry.
19:49:15 <pikhq> "Soh" is solfège abuse.
19:49:23 <ehird> It's "so", anyway.
19:49:58 <ehird> Sow, a needle pulling thread, something something, tea, a drink with jam and bread, etc.
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19:50:38 <nooga> thread:hatred dearth earth heart heard rated hater trade death hated hared tread hard trad tear tahr rhea hare read hart rate hate drat dear date head hear dart dare heat herd her rad rat hat ate ear red eat had tar tea eta ted the era art are
19:51:08 <pikhq> Do, a deer, a female deer. Re, a drop of golden sun. Mi, a name I call myself. Fa, a long long way to run. So, a needle pulling thread. La, a note to follow so. Ti, a drink with jam and bread. And that brings us back to do.
19:51:13 <ehird> Dearth Earth hatred rated hard death rate heat, something.
19:51:21 * pikhq has seen "The Sound of Music"... A few too many times.
19:51:39 <ehird> "a note to follow so" is wayyyyyyyy copout.
19:53:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_(programming)#Usage
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19:55:26 <ehird> awk is a nice language
19:55:30 <ehird> why don't people like awk?
19:56:06 <ehird> Let's call it modernly; PERL is dead, long live Perl; AWK is dead, long live Awk!
19:56:34 <ehird> so's your mom, fizzie.
19:57:50 <ehird> huh, awk doesn't support \d
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19:58:51 <fizzie> I find that latter thing very unbelievable, since the [[:digit:]] construction is a POSIX thing.
19:59:35 <fizzie> awk '/^[[:digit:]]*$/ { print; }' does seem to do what one'd expect.
19:59:51 <fizzie> Though this is of course the GNU awk.
20:00:52 <ehird> nooga: you are uncouth as a horse.
20:02:58 <ehird> awk could do with better one line syntax
20:03:20 <nooga> i just said that [[:digit:]] is too verbose
20:05:04 <fizzie> Yes, it should be something XML-based instead.
20:05:16 <fizzie> With namespaces and all.
20:05:35 <fizzie> Oh, you said "too verbose", not "not verbose enough". Nevermind.
20:06:48 <ehird> regexps kinda suck
20:07:27 <nooga> but mostly write only
20:07:33 <fizzie> Yes, I'd much prefer a language where you pick up a pen and a graphing tablet and draw a little FSM instead.
20:08:13 <nooga> SQLs suck, they should think about something nicer
20:08:20 <FireFly> [[:digit:]], then you can just do [0-9] anyway
20:08:39 <FireFly> Well, if \d isn't available
20:11:22 <fizzie> Also with [0-9] you don't get the arabic-indic digit zero .. nine, or the Nko digits, or Devanagari digits, or any others. (Though I'm honestly not sure about \d or [[:digit:]] either. I think in Perl at least \d equals [[:digit:]] equals \p{IsDigit}, and that last one is defined with the Unicode Nd property, which all those digits share.)
20:12:55 <ehird> fizzie: graphing tablet? you mean tablet notebook!
20:13:05 <ehird> fizzie: no, \[0-9\], isn't it
20:14:50 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regex#POSIX_character_classes <-- Wiki says [:digit:] == \d == [0-9]
20:14:55 <FireFly> But they may be inaccurate
20:15:20 <fizzie> I can't seem to make ५ match even \p{IsDigit}, so maybe it's actually limited to 0-9 really.
20:15:53 <nooga> btw. any new, exciting esolangs?
20:15:56 * ehird wonders if sketching out a sane regex syntax would be sane
20:16:15 <nooga> i feel that it's really hard to invent something that does not resemble existing langs
20:17:34 <MizardX> posix character classes need to be enclosed in another set of [ ]
20:18:01 <fizzie> We have, in fact, sort-of established that already.
20:18:26 <fizzie> Maybe not explicitly, though.
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20:19:30 <MizardX> http://www.regular-expressions.info/posixbrackets.html
20:21:12 <fizzie> Ah, it was just an encoding problem.
20:21:19 <fizzie> perl -e 'use utf8; print "yay\n" if "५" =~ /\d/;' does print out "yay".
20:22:05 <fizzie> Devanagari digit five.
20:22:22 <MizardX> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A5%AB
20:29:31 <ehird> "Password: must contain at least one uppercase character."
20:31:03 <nooga> if space and ! is permitted then you've gota nice password
20:32:10 <ehird> emailing things to myself = awesome
20:32:22 <ehird> google searchable, fluid, labelable, freetext remembering system
20:32:41 <ehird> and accessible anywhere!
20:34:06 <ehird> the best way to remembre things not important enough to commit to memory, imo
20:36:59 <ehird> now if only forums died and people used mailing lists instead
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20:40:29 <ehird> i have so many windows open right now, yet I'm planning to migrate to a 1280x800 12.1" laptop...
20:40:55 <ehird> (yes, laptop; this one is small and cool enough to fit on my lap :P)
20:42:25 <ehird> pikhq: aren't you a fan of tiling window managers?
20:42:30 <ehird> i might be joining you in some days...
20:44:03 <pikhq> ehird: Tiling WMs are quite nice when you want to have everything use the entire screen.
20:44:21 <pikhq> Or, of course, if you just like ZOMG tiling.
20:44:23 <ehird> 12 inches of 1280x800... pretty sure I'm not gonna have more than two windows on the screen at once, ever
20:44:53 <pikhq> On a 12 inch screen? Yeah, more than two windows is sure to be painful.
20:45:02 <ehird> still, that's over 120 dpi
20:45:11 <ehird> so I'll be able to pack a good amount of pixels in
20:45:22 <ehird> still have misgivings about 12.1" vs 13.3", though
20:45:30 <ehird> 1.2" can make all the difference; that's what she said.
20:46:16 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWpkZksn3Rw ;; the sleek laptop I'm prolly getting, except imagine a bit of poking out at the back due to the 9-cell battery
20:46:28 <ehird> looks awesome closed
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20:47:35 <ehird> i hate how they compare it to the x300, it's annoyingly sleek :)
20:47:49 <ehird> but x300 people only get an ultra low voltage 1.4ghz vs the x200's regular 2.4ghz, so ha.
20:49:26 <ehird> if I could upgrade the x200 to 13" without too much weight impact I prolly would though
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21:02:31 * ehird moves his imac far away enough that it appears as the same size the 12" laptop would on his lap
21:10:17 * olsner buys a billion-inch screen then moves it up in space to simulate a 12" display
21:11:40 * pikhq buys some screentime on the night sky
21:21:41 <ehird> Yes. Russia owns space.
21:21:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: what's pointless, olsner's idea or me?
21:24:14 <olsner> this mixup could have been hilarious
21:28:54 <pikhq> Yeah, but we screwed up the hilarity.
21:30:14 <olsner> yeah, we dropped the ball on that one
21:30:25 <GregorR-L> ehird: Considering that my message was an entire two minutes before olsner's, I'm not sure how that could be confusing.
21:30:38 <GregorR-L> Some major lagliage going on somewhere.
21:30:42 <GregorR-L> From my perspective, my message was at 4:08, but the log says it's at 4:11
21:31:14 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
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21:31:42 <GregorR-L> Because on mine, my message was two minutes BEFORE yours.
21:31:48 <GregorR-L> But in the canonical log, yours came first.
21:33:51 <ehird> GregorR-L: why pointless?
21:34:34 <GregorR-L> I refuse to dignify that question with an answer and/or don't care to :P
21:34:53 <ehird> lol, this is the only level has restarted at stage 31, undefined
21:35:10 <ehird> GregorR-L: i'm trying to ascertain if the 1280x800 @ 12.1" is sufficient for doing everything
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23:37:44 <nooga> it's rather that space owns russia
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23:43:41 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
23:43:57 <oerjan> sorry, i was getting low on my quota
23:46:43 <Warrigal_> I wish there were never any lag between my IRC client and the servers.
23:47:54 <Warrigal_> I'll just have to buy an indestructible dedicated cable going between my Slicehost data center and a freenode server and tell them both to put it in their routing tables.
00:05:10 <pikhq> I wish that everyone had an ansible.
00:05:33 <pikhq> Thereby solving all communication lag issues and most connectivity issues.
00:09:54 <coppro> would still be bandwidth issues
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00:39:52 <ehird> [23:43] FireFly: That hurt like pain
00:40:14 <ehird> coppro: if you have 0 latency you have infinite bandwidth
00:40:20 <ehird> just send a bunch of packets at once
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00:40:58 <coppro> the ansible doesn't provide 0 latency, it just provides instant communication
00:41:40 <coppro> there's a limit to how much can be transmitted at once
00:43:42 <pikhq> Sure, but you still have 0 latency.
00:44:12 <pikhq> (modulo the latency of the computers on each end of the ansible connection)
00:54:17 <coppro> you might get latency from a bottleneck
00:54:46 <coppro> that is, after all, where most network latency comes from
00:55:49 <pikhq> coppro: I have a fucking satellite Internet connection.
00:57:36 <oerjan> indeed, missouri is strictly banned here
01:00:59 <ehird> pikhq: you should invest in 3g mobile broadband, or do they not have that in the us of a
01:02:27 <pikhq> ehird: You realise that they charge something like $5 per megabyte here, right?
01:02:36 <ehird> pikhq: what, you can't get a metered bandwidth contract?
01:02:47 <ehird> well, i heard something about 2 MEGABYTES costing $15
01:03:03 <ehird> here, it's 15GB for £15/mo
01:03:07 <GregorR-L> They do, if you're willing to pay enough.
01:03:12 <pikhq> The US is truly an internet backwater.
01:03:17 <ehird> then £0.10/MB over that
01:03:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: we have an unmetered plan for like £40
01:03:34 <ehird> but 3g is too slow to torrent anyway
01:03:37 <ehird> and youtube videos aren't very big
01:03:55 <pikhq> I... Don't think you can get Internet access for $15 here.
01:04:02 <pikhq> Even dialup ISPs cost a bit more than that.
01:04:38 <pikhq> Yeah, broadband costs more than that.
01:04:52 <ehird> pikhq: for £10/mo ($16.51), you can get a 1GB/mo plan
01:04:58 <ehird> so I guess the UK is actually pretty good for 3G broadband
01:05:38 <pikhq> ehird: Ah, but in this glorious capitalist worker's paradise, the invisible hand of the free market takes care of all!
01:05:42 <ehird> apparently if you buy a paid-monthly mobile phone it's 25% off the broadband
01:05:50 <ehird> pikhq: i like how they can't even get the free market right
01:06:09 <ehird> "The totally free market that BREAKS HORRIBLY if you mess with it in any way will be fine! We just have to manipulate it."
01:06:23 <ehird> (not that it works even if you don't tinker with it)
01:06:43 <pikhq> ehird: Keep in mind that we have a lot of people in favor of removing all regulation on markets.
01:07:02 <pikhq> ... Even Adam Smith didn't want that.
01:07:18 <ehird> might be good for your country, dropping out of the world economy and all
01:07:21 <pikhq> More capitalist than Adam Smith -- now that's just crazy.
01:07:43 <ehird> don't call it capitalism
01:07:57 <ehird> it doesn't produce a functioning market of trade
01:08:01 <ehird> so it's not capitalism
01:08:29 <pikhq> Fine, fine. I'll call it corporate feudalism.
01:47:59 <ehird> They are economical, duh.
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01:51:43 <ehird> Halph: too clever by halph
01:51:47 <ehird> wait oerjan said that last time
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02:42:17 <pikhq> Dammit, I got reminded of Salad Fingers again.
02:42:26 <pikhq> And here I was, thinking I'd sleep tonight.
02:42:42 <ehird> Salad Fingers isn't that creepy
02:43:49 <pikhq> ... Something is wrong with you.
02:51:48 <Sgeo> Something happened a few years ago that makes me uninterested in girls kissing.. for a time at least
02:53:42 <Sgeo> That actually didn't have much of an effect on me
02:53:42 <ehird> No, his girlfriend left him *UNCONTROLLABLE SOBBING*
02:53:52 <Sgeo> I saw a girl I liked kiss another girl
02:54:01 <ehird> That was my first guess
02:54:07 <ehird> but I thought it was too cheesy and retarded even for you.
02:54:15 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: She could be bi you know, you can still fan the flames :P
02:54:47 <Sgeo> GregorR-L, a) That was a while ago. b) I assumed she was in a relationship >.>
02:55:15 <ehird> She could also be polyamorous.
02:55:29 <ehird> (note: if she's bi and polyamorous there's a good chance she's just a slut)
02:55:59 <GregorR-L> Let's go ahead and not assume that >_>
02:56:04 <oerjan> tetramorous. she insists on having exactly four lovers at all times.
02:56:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: Whyever not?
02:57:08 <GregorR-L> ehird: A) Presumably Sgeo doesn't want to be one of twelve guys, B) argh stereotypes :P
02:57:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: Is your B referring to your A? Pretty sure it is.
02:57:38 <Sgeo> Again, this was a while ago >.>
02:58:13 <GregorR-L> Sgeo: Well, apparently it's ruined your intrinsic male lesbian lust even now, so time means nothing :P
02:58:47 <Sgeo> I think I'm recovering it >.>
02:59:23 <GregorR-L> Anyway, I said "Lesbians!" because I was quoting http://lonelydino.com/?id=13 :P
03:01:05 <pikhq> There is no idea so silly that Gregor won't get a domain for it, is there?
03:01:20 <GregorR-L> Also the name of the comic is T-Rex is Lonely
03:01:36 <oerjan> hey, #3 only has two frames
03:01:58 <GregorR-L> They can have 2 or 3 frames, so long as they're from the set {1,2,5}
03:02:31 <pikhq> Or even one frame?
03:02:39 <pikhq> (that would have to be an awesome frame out of context)
03:02:49 <GregorR-L> The software will allow one frame, but I doubt any would be funny enough for me to post.
03:03:01 <GregorR-L> Actually, the software works fine with zero frames :P
03:03:18 <pikhq> That would have to be an *epic* lack-of-frame.
03:04:00 <ehird> lol @ today's dinosaur comic
03:04:23 <GregorR-L> There are easily enough variables involved in girlfriend.
03:05:44 <coppro> we should make a language
03:06:16 <ehird> We do that http://esolangs.org/ :P
03:06:20 <oerjan> i'm sorry, no language in this channel. strictly forbidden.
03:06:24 <ehird> We tried to make a conlang but turns out we SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
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03:07:01 <oerjan> ehird: ekbu snaffelfy scramboo smibbletkw
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03:07:34 <GregorR-L> ("your mom" is, by no coincidence, a valid and meaningful phrase in said conlang, and does not have the same meaning as the English phrase "your mom")
03:07:36 <pikhq> ... And all the connections dropped at once.
03:08:37 <Slereah_> Why are you talking of conlang here
03:08:59 <ehird> Isharia is about gay sex, not conlangs.
03:09:05 <ehird> Incidentally, so is this channel.
03:09:24 <oerjan> -ur being a nominative suffix and -m present tense
03:10:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: re: your mom thing, http://kisa.ca/oou.html
03:11:15 <oerjan> yo- is the second person pronoun. mo- indicates a sorptive action.
03:11:48 <pikhq> dawg is a superlative.
03:12:52 <oerjan> indeed, using the superlative infix -w-
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03:26:35 <GregorR-L> ehird: Wow, you can say EVERYTHING with that.
03:26:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know :D
03:29:29 * Sgeo doesn't understand IPA stuff
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03:43:45 <augur> ipa is pretty simple
03:44:08 <Warrigal_> Presumably, "mom your" means the same thing.
03:44:09 <augur> there are three conceptual dimensions to the main part of the IPA
03:44:56 <Warrigal_> GregorR-L: are you talking about an actual conlang?
03:45:09 <augur> place of articulation, manner, and voicing
03:46:52 <augur> place of articulation is where in the mouth the distortion/constriction occurs
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03:47:28 <augur> manner is what sort of distortion/constriction
03:47:35 <augur> and voicing is whether or not your vocal cords are vibrating
03:49:21 <augur> so for example, for place of articulation
03:49:26 <ehird> augur: i don't know any of those things
03:49:28 <ehird> and can't control them.
03:49:38 <augur> to make those sounds, you press your lips together
03:49:58 <augur> making b and p a "bilabial", which is the place of articulation
03:50:23 <augur> compare that to d and t, where you place the front of your tongue flat against the alveolar ridge behind your teeth
03:50:50 <augur> this is an alveolar place of articulation
03:52:01 <augur> or consider k and g
03:52:18 <augur> where you press the back of your tongue against the back roof of your mouth, in front of your uvula
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03:52:35 <ehird> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q1/MiffTheFox/GreatCodePyramids.png THIS CODE OH MY GOD
03:52:37 <augur> this is the velum, and so this kind of place of articulation is velar
03:53:29 <augur> ehird: no im teaching you IPA
03:53:33 <ehird> nooooooooooooooooooooooo
03:53:53 <augur> so b/p, d/t, and g/k different from one another in their place of articulation
03:54:00 <augur> bilabial, alveolar, and velar
03:54:10 <augur> there are a whole bunch of other POAs as well
03:54:25 <augur> here we can also see aspects of voicing
03:54:41 <augur> b and p different only in whether or not your vocal cords are vibrating when making the sound
03:54:46 <augur> same with d/t and g/k
03:55:02 <augur> b, d, and g are voiced, while p, t, and k are voiceless
03:55:29 <augur> all of these sounds also involve completely stopping air
03:55:48 <augur> so when you make a p or a g, air doesnt flow through your mouth until you open the constriction again
03:56:02 <augur> compare this to f and v, where air does flow
03:56:27 <augur> this differentiations manner/degree of stricture
03:56:39 <augur> f, v, s, and z arent full closures
03:57:12 <augur> instead, they're only partially closed, and the closeness happens to make them produce white-noise-like sound like something dragging over the floor
03:57:16 <augur> so theyre called fricatives
03:57:26 <augur> which also produces that kind of noise
03:57:45 <Warrigal_> < augur> ehird: no im teaching you IPA
03:57:49 <augur> s and t are both voiceless alveolars, but they different in that s is a fricative while t is a stop/plosive
03:57:51 <Warrigal_> I think you're actually teaching him phonetics.
03:57:58 <augur> warrigal_: sort of!
03:58:02 <augur> theyre both intimately connected
03:58:06 <ehird> because i'm not listening, see
03:58:11 <augur> IPA = international PHONETIC alphabet
03:58:27 <augur> im currently just outlining the three major dimensions of the segmental part of the IPA
03:58:49 <Warrigal_> About as intimately connected as mathematical notation and math are intimately connected. Which is pretty intimately.
03:59:13 <augur> hence why i have to explain some phonetics to explain the IPA
03:59:40 <augur> so those three aspects form the three main axes of the IPA segment chart
04:00:52 <augur> and the main combinations of these three properties, Voicing+POA+Manner, get letter symbols
04:01:57 <augur> another common set of symbols are the nasals, which are essentially just stops where the soft palate is lowered, so that air can escape through it
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04:02:12 <augur> so b and m differ only in that m has a lowered soft palate, allowing air through the nasal canal
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04:02:38 <augur> because these are also fairly common, they get their own symbols
04:03:03 <augur> there are some other symbols for things like clicks as well, and implosives (which have air flowing in the opposite direction)
04:03:11 <augur> but these are much fewer in number
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04:03:58 <augur> aside from the "segmental" symbols, which ive described, there are also a whole slew of diacritics that modify aspects of the base symbol's description
04:04:38 <augur> p is a Voiceless Bilabial Plosive, but you can add a diacritic to it that makes it a Voiced Bilabial Plosive
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04:05:07 <augur> ofcourse, the voiced bilabial plosive already has a symbol of its own, namely "b", but even so, p + that diacritic denotes the same sound
04:06:07 <augur> the rest of the diacritics serve much the same purpose, adding certain denotational semantics
04:06:50 <augur> using p again, p is unaspirated, meaning that if it were followed by a vowel, the vowel's articulation would have full voicing
04:06:58 <ehird> fucking SHUT UP augur
04:07:18 <augur> but if it were aspirated, where the vowels beginning is unvoiced due to a puff of air from the p, you can put a superscript h "diacritic" to indicate this
04:08:10 <augur> the specifics of the segments and the diacritics you'd just learn by practice, but those are the general ideas behind it
04:08:27 <augur> so there you go, ehird and sgeo
04:08:37 <augur> now you understand (the principles behind) ipa
04:08:49 <ehird> why do you think that
04:08:58 <augur> because you're a smart boy
04:09:42 <ehird> i didn't read what you said.
04:11:27 * Sgeo should be using timeit or something when he does Project Euler stuff
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04:16:14 <Sgeo> Ok, not killing this shell would be cheating at this point
04:20:39 <Sgeo> Project Euler solution attempt that took well over a minute
04:21:26 <coppro> Sgeo: I prefer computer science competition questions, myself
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04:50:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,2,5&comics=1356,1355,1356&strip
04:51:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: The one in the middle was made by Randall Munroe and is, I think, the only strip to have a totally different panel.
04:51:46 <ehird> Anyway, the second panel was the past one hundred years.
04:51:55 <ehird> It's a very infinite kind of one hundred years. :P
04:52:06 <augur> he doesnt actually get closer to telling it, zeno style
04:52:34 <augur> the inner cells are not 1/2 of the way closer to the end of the story
04:52:36 <ehird> augur I think xkcd has a math degree or something, so shut up.
04:52:40 <ehird> also, yes they are
04:52:48 <augur> theyre just the outer cells
04:52:52 <augur> copied and smaller
04:53:13 <augur> i get the joke and all
04:53:18 <augur> it falls apart on closer inspection!
04:54:22 <augur> this is not zeno like at all
04:54:34 <augur> if anything, its a fractal
04:54:38 <augur> which is not at all zenotic.
04:54:51 <augur> and its very hofstadterian as well
04:55:10 <augur> with his GOD Over Djinn idea
04:55:46 <GregorR-L> So yeah, how 'bout that sports team.
04:55:57 <ehird> GregorR-L: do you think mine counts as lonely dino
04:56:07 <ehird> there is only one character in the second panel
04:56:13 <ehird> and that character is a dinosaur comics strip
04:56:16 <ehird> which is sorta like the spirit of t-rex
04:56:32 <ehird> also inanimate, so it's okay
04:56:35 <pikhq> GregorR-L: The Sportland Sports?
04:56:44 <ehird> (the guy to the right is just t-rex hallucinating)
04:57:00 <GregorR-L> ehird: Maybe, but I set up the software on lonelydino.com to disallow that so I wouldn't be tempted ... I'd have to change how it works to make that work :P
04:57:08 <GregorR-L> Also, http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=518,467 hyuk hyuk
04:57:13 <ehird> YOU NEED TO TRUST YOURSELF MORE :P
04:57:45 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=0,1&comics=579,250
04:58:03 <ehird> For instance, sex changes.
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05:05:45 <ehird> [[But you're real problem is that you think of the singular `Linux'. Linux isn't even most of the system, GNU has the largest share, and many other apps. A more accurate name is `GNU/Linux/X11/TeX/Perl/Python...'. (GNU usually the largest contignet, generally is 15-25% of the system, the Linux kernel only 1.5-3%)]]
05:05:45 <ehird> This comment would make me want to stab someone anywhere, but especially so in the comments of a joking comic.
05:07:42 <coppro> I'll call it GNU/Linux when Linus does
05:07:55 <ehird> Linus is totally awesome
05:08:09 <coppro> except for his opinion towards C++, yes
05:08:11 <ehird> one of the few top-level foss guys that isn't completely retarded
05:08:26 <ehird> coppro: you are not welcome here.
05:08:31 <coppro> more importantly, he refuses to use it
05:08:33 <ehird> lament: hey, good timing
05:08:35 <ehird> we need some bannination.
05:08:39 <pikhq> ... And you approve of the clusterfuck called C++?
05:08:47 <ehird> this is not a lolling matter
05:08:50 <ehird> this is a lobotomy matter
05:08:51 <lament> it's obviously not enough to ban him from the channel
05:09:06 <ehird> lament: right, that's when he says "I use C++ for most of my programs"
05:09:16 <lament> we should perhaps communicate with ICANN and get him banned from the Internet
05:09:17 <coppro> C++ is not a clusterfuck; it's THE clusterfuck
05:09:23 <ehird> lament: absolutely
05:09:49 <ehird> lament: wait, he'll still be able to access a c++ compiler
05:09:59 <ehird> let's contact the CIA
05:10:20 <ehird> if, after ten years without a computer, he still likes C++, we'll have to... euthanise... this poor soul
05:11:43 <coppro> I never said I liked C++
05:12:01 <coppro> I like it the way I like Perl
05:12:01 <ehird> i can think of no other explanation
05:12:15 <ehird> there are situations where using perl is okay
05:12:20 <ehird> you cannot apply this to c++ :P
05:12:21 <coppro> that is, I absolutely detest it, except when I try to do something with another language
05:12:40 <pikhq> I think you need to learn more languages.
05:12:46 <ehird> coppro: seriously?
05:12:52 <ehird> you might just be a bad programmer.
05:12:54 <pikhq> If you simply must do C with objects, go for Objective C.
05:12:55 <coppro> ehird: no, not really.
05:13:00 <pikhq> It is C with objects.
05:13:04 <ehird> no, you can't comment on that yourself
05:13:18 <pikhq> (well, it's C with the Smalltalk object system.)
05:13:28 <ehird> as a programmer that's not really that bad in others' estimation, i decree you a bad programmer if you can't work with any language that isn't a ball of shit and mud
05:13:40 <augur> pikhq: the problem with Objective C is that its not Smalltalk but pretends it is.
05:13:57 <ehird> augur: have you ever looked at its implementation
05:13:59 <augur> it has all the annoying shit of C but little of the awesomeness of smalltalk
05:14:02 <ehird> its object implementation IS smalltalk
05:14:05 <pikhq> augur: Which is a huge step up from C++.
05:14:12 <augur> ehird, its not a matter of the object implementation tho
05:14:23 <ehird> augur: he said SMALLTALK'S OBJECT SYSTEM
05:14:34 <pikhq> Which is not a language with further abstraction than C, but pretends it is.
05:14:47 <augur> therefore your retort is invalid
05:14:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's us.
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05:15:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: uhh we started like 30 seconds ago
05:15:25 <pikhq> augur: There's similar flaws in many languages that try to be "X but with foo".
05:15:27 <augur> also, ObjC doesnt really have a further abstraction either, at least not uniformly; it just has lots of sugar.
05:15:47 <ehird> what, objective-c?
05:15:54 <ehird> you have a weird time dilation machine
05:15:56 <augur> since ObjC is a superset of C, you get all the non-abstractedness of C plus some added abstraction stuff
05:16:33 <augur> ehird: he's living on a rocket ship accelerating towards the speed of light
05:16:58 <pikhq> augur: Clearly what's needed is a language that's both unabstracted and not truly evil.
05:17:07 <pikhq> Sadly, C is the closest we have.
05:17:11 <ehird> [[I have to pint out that macs are based on linux (I cound bsd as linux) they just happen to have all the pitfalls of both Linux and Windows]]
05:17:18 <augur> abstraction is fine.
05:17:45 <pikhq> ehird: ... Oh, right. That language that nobody uses because CS is dominated by masochists.
05:18:10 <ehird> YOU FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN
05:18:28 <augur> ehird: makes sense to me!
05:18:35 <augur> thats grammatical japanese, almost!
05:18:37 * pikhq stabs someone that thinks BSD is Linux
05:18:39 <ehird> technically you'd write it as
05:18:42 <ehird> you forth love IF honk THEN
05:18:45 <ehird> which is a lot more readable
05:18:59 <ehird> maybe even with double-spacing!
05:19:12 <augur> anata wa foosu ga suki desu kereba, honku suru
05:19:16 <pikhq> augur: Technically, you'd omit the "then". ;)
05:19:29 <augur> i dont remember imperative in japanese
05:19:38 <augur> nor proper conditional. i think its kereba, but whatever
05:20:13 <ehird> : ?honk IF honk THEN ;
05:20:18 <pikhq> Anata wa foosu ga suki de gozareba, honku site.
05:20:18 <ehird> you forth love ?honk
05:20:23 <ehird> (note: may or may not be idiomatic)
05:20:37 <augur> de gozareba? what the fuck are you, hyperformal? :|
05:20:48 <pikhq> (note: very odd mix of formality going on there)
05:21:02 <augur> nakereba might be it
05:21:19 <augur> anata wa foosu ga suki nakereba honku shite!
05:21:25 <ehird> "Sir, I must point out that you are, in fact, a fucking cunt."
05:21:31 <ehird> ↑ please translate that to idiomatic japanese
05:21:50 <ehird> japanese sure is concise
05:22:32 <augur> havent you seen lost in translation?
05:22:53 <augur> honk if you like forth -> anata wa foosu ga suki nakereba honku shite
05:22:58 <ehird> ...is it really iihaado?
05:23:01 <augur> but the other one makes it smaller!
05:23:14 <augur> pikhq understands!
05:23:15 <ehird> augur: gimme kanji so i can ask google translate
05:23:28 <augur> google doesnt work on idiomatic constructions
05:23:35 <pikhq> augur: I'm... Not sure that gets the formality right at all.
05:23:45 <ehird> that's the whole point
05:23:47 <augur> nakereba, or iihaado?
05:23:58 <ehird> you have to politely and formally explain to this sir, perfectly carmly and politely, that he is a fucking cunt
05:24:04 <pikhq> You want some serious keigo on that.
05:24:13 <ehird> i guess that's any japanese insult :D
05:24:38 <pikhq> And I don't remember the many odd conjugations involved with keigo.
05:24:42 <pikhq> ehird: Formal Japanese is hard.
05:24:45 <augur> i think "iihaado" suffices.
05:24:50 <pikhq> ehird: Verbs conjugate irregularly.
05:24:53 <augur> pikhq: formal korean is worse.
05:25:01 <ehird> augur: so if i went into a business meeting and said iihaado
05:25:12 <ehird> would the look be confusion then utter shock
05:25:12 <augur> also, whereby irregularly you mean "you use completely different verbs" :p
05:25:31 <augur> pikhq, are you as amused by ehirds naivete as i am?
05:25:47 <pikhq> And different nouns, in some cases.
05:25:57 <augur> korean is worse tho
05:26:13 <ehird> if i was trying to be serious i wouldn't be on irc
05:26:27 <augur> korean makes japanese look as easy as english
05:26:27 <pikhq> augur: I will take your word for it.
05:26:51 <pikhq> English is not exactly easy.
05:26:56 <augur> theres a politeness level in korean that you use primarily for people you went to school with
05:27:07 <augur> which is distinct from the rest of the politeness system
05:27:19 <pikhq> ... I think you should say "Korean makes Japanese look like Toki Pona."
05:27:22 <augur> so it forms its own strata of politeness.
05:27:50 <GregorR-L> Your mom forms her own strata of politeness.
05:28:11 <augur> talking to your parents also has its own strata
05:28:39 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ANATA NO HAHA.
05:29:17 <ehird> augur: there should be a language where everything apart from objective logic and observation is based on politeness levels
05:29:38 <ehird> it's fun because it makes no sense
05:29:44 <augur> you mean where everything except those have politeness variations?
05:30:10 <ehird> you just have those, and express non-objective-observation things by varying their politeness
05:30:13 <ehird> in very subtle ways
05:30:15 <pikhq> ehird: Take Lojban and add features.
05:30:29 <pikhq> (it needs some bloat, right?)
05:30:31 <ehird> that is not the same
05:30:31 <augur> ehird, i dont follow
05:31:07 <GregorR-L> "Survival requires that you think on your feet ... or on your knees"
05:31:22 <augur> praying? or fellating? :o
05:31:46 <GregorR-L> In fact he was just climbing in some weird kneewalking position :P
05:32:11 <GregorR-L> ehird sucks at finding out-of-context things funny :P
05:32:18 <ehird> i was joking though
05:32:27 <ehird> and made an additional joke suggestion
05:32:42 <GregorR-L> NOW I MUST LEARN TO KNEE TAP DANCE
05:32:51 <ehird> have fun GregorR-L
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05:33:48 <GregorR-L> Now that he's gone, back to the topic of fellatio! X-P
05:34:42 <pikhq> Alright, everyone. Take off the man costumes.
05:35:23 * GregorR-L gets in ... wo-man-chain position?
05:35:36 * pikhq brings out the strapons
05:35:51 <GregorR-L> But ... they were attached to our man costumes >_>
05:43:27 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, random unexplained Bear Grylls nudity.
05:43:55 <coppro> hm... I don't think I've ever seen a 504 before
05:44:27 <GregorR-L> Not many secret proxies out there :P
05:46:15 <GregorR-L> I didn't know people actually said "es ef"
05:48:13 <coppro> why not? heck, they own sf.net
05:58:07 <augur> "scifi"? or san francisco? x3
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07:03:31 <coppro> wow... I just noticed for the first time the word "fornightly" actually used in a sentence
07:16:10 <GregorR-L> His fortnightly affair was fornicatingly illicit.
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07:30:19 <fizzie> Couldn't decide how exclamated to be.
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07:44:00 <HackEgo> melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
07:44:10 <Warrigal_> It *still* tells you the melting point of apples.
07:46:20 <GregorR-L> `calc 29.3 degrees centigrade in fahrenheit
07:46:21 <HackEgo> 29.3 degrees Celsius = 84.74 degrees Fahrenheit
07:46:55 <Warrigal_> It doesn't tell you the speed of sound in apples, though.
07:47:24 <fizzie> "(data not available)" for the melting point of oranges, though. I would have liked to compare some apples and oranges.
07:48:14 <HackEgo> melting point of bananas \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ bananas \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ data not available \ Thermal properties: \ \ chill point \ \ 13 °C 12 °C \ \ green ripe green ripe \ \ optimal storage temperature \ \ 19 °C \ \ 14.5 °C specific heat \ \ 3.35 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha
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07:49:13 <fizzie> Uh... "melting point of people" => input interpretation "elements + melting point | all countries + population", then a table of two results; first is the melting point of "elements" (1700 deg F), and the second's just the population count, 6.68 billion people.
07:49:25 <fizzie> That's not what I wanted to know; I wanted to know what would make people melt.
07:52:08 <fizzie> Ha! Cucumbers have a melting point of 31.1 degrees Celsius. It seems to have those numbers for a very random subset of foods.
07:52:55 <fizzie> And strawberries melt at 30.6 degrees.
07:53:11 <ais523> why would it know the melting point of a cucumber?
07:53:17 <ais523> also, that value seems suspiciously low
07:53:24 <ais523> also, cucumbers burn before they melt, so you'd have to do it in a vacuum
07:54:29 <fizzie> It knows apples, cucumbers, strawberries (all very near 30 degrees Celsius) but not oranges, bananas, potatoes, for example.
07:54:57 <fizzie> And it knows it because Wolfram people have meticulously curated all that reliable information.
07:55:20 <fizzie> I can see it now, they have a huge melting facility where they just melt things and measure temperatures.
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07:56:18 <GregorR-L> ais523: Not necessarily in a vacuum, just with no oxygen.
07:56:40 <ais523> an argon or nitrogen atmosphere would probably be easier to arrange
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08:15:56 <ais523> wtf is going on with Minimal?
08:16:07 <ais523> it seems that there's some sort of large project going on to make a really bad Brainfuck derivative
08:22:00 <ais523> ugh, this awful TV program my sister's watching had someone working at a terminal
08:22:10 <ais523> until eventually they got it to pop up some text they could click on to make something happen
08:22:15 <ais523> which was just normal terminal text
08:22:18 <ais523> that's not how terminals work!
08:22:54 <fizzie> You do get mouse events with xterm-ish terminal emulators, though.
08:25:25 <ais523> yes, but the fact remains, that no sane console program would produce a link you had to click on, rather than just do the action
08:25:31 <ais523> it's like one of the Continue? (yes/no) things
08:25:41 <ais523> except, more inconvenient and more likely to be activated by accident
08:26:03 <ais523> although, it's such a perverse idea that I'll probably implement it in something nonserious in the future
08:26:14 <fizzie> Links in links are clickable, as well as the [yes] -- [no] confirmation dialog buttons.
08:26:24 <fizzie> Of course you don't *have* to click on them.
08:26:39 <ais523> the idea, though, would be a confirmation that could only be done via the mouse, in a program that you thought was a normal terminal one
08:26:47 <ais523> bonus points: it makes redirecting stdin fail as a way to automate it
08:27:44 <ais523> the actual program had the link activate wifi as a method of remotely removing the mind-control from people, but that's just typically impossible bad science rather than possible but ridiculous bad UI
08:31:52 <fizzie> The mouse events come from stdin, so you can still automate it, though. You just need the right escape codes so that it looks like a click. (Though the program could check whether stdin is a terminal or not before deciding to process those.)
08:44:13 <ais523> in that case, it should accept both, but cause them to behave differently
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09:38:28 <nooga> ais523: wtf is going on with Minimal?
09:38:28 <nooga> 09:16 ais523: it seems that there's some sort of large project going on to make a really bad Brainfuck derivative
09:38:44 <ais523> nooga: just look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Minimal
09:38:50 <ais523> and the Minimal-2D variant, too
09:39:04 <ais523> I'm trying to work out wtf is going on
09:49:18 <ais523> it's almost as if we're being trolled
09:52:02 <augur> Being trolled? because someone made a variant of BF like everyone else? :P
09:52:13 <ais523> is it even a variant, though?
09:52:23 <ais523> most BF variants a) don't use the exact same commands, and b) are Turing-complete
09:52:35 <augur> isn't there a language out there that is literally just BF with different symbols?
09:52:44 <ais523> yes, more than one in fact
09:52:50 <augur> then there you go.
09:52:51 <ais523> but those are just stupid, rather than borderline trolling
09:53:05 <ais523> but a language which is literally just BF, except with the same symbols?
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09:53:33 <ais523> and with no conditional flow (later changed to have conditional flow that doesn't give TCness), and no looping
09:54:02 <augur> ok, so its a non-TC tarpit
09:54:09 <ais523> it's like someone crossed the worst aspects of stupid BF derivatives with Deadfish
09:54:12 <augur> as if there arent plenty of those
09:54:27 <augur> i mean, lets be serious, this isnt trolling, its just shoddy work
09:54:42 <ais523> well, most non-TC tarpits were obviously designed from scratch by someone who didn't know what they were doing
09:55:15 <ais523> this one, though, is just perplexing, surely its creators have heard of BF?
09:55:21 <ais523> and surely, therefore, they know why [] are necessary?
09:55:34 <ais523> hey, I just had an idea: BF without ]
09:55:38 <ais523> it still has [, though
09:56:04 <augur> They could just be stupid
09:56:19 <augur> imagine ehird but without the minimal knowledge of computer science
09:59:14 <AnMaster> <ais523> [10:54:42] well, most non-TC tarpits were obviously designed from scratch by someone who didn't know what they were doing <-- what about HQ9+ ?
09:59:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that was designed by someone who did know what they were doing
09:59:39 <ais523> HQ9+ is obviously not an attempt to make a powerful language
09:59:53 <ais523> it's an attempt to construct a counterexample for several false sweeping statements about TCness
10:00:02 <ais523> and as a rather good joke
10:00:16 <ais523> as in, most non-TC tarpits are just failures, HQ9+ is a success, but at something else
10:00:46 <nooga> augur: imagine ehird but without the minimal knowledge of computer science << muahahwhahahwahaha
10:00:48 <ais523> I don't think it qualifies as a tarpit, and it's probably almost TC
10:01:06 <augur> ais523: HQ9+ is the programing language equivalent of Daniel Dennett's Great City test beater
10:01:18 <augur> i just realized this
10:01:23 <ais523> AnMaster: it has a complicated translation table, that's all important to the way the language works
10:01:34 <augur> nooga: its true! :D
10:01:36 <ais523> and many of the annoyance features make it more complicated, not simpler
10:01:38 <AnMaster> augur, "Daniel Dennett's Great City test beater"?
10:01:40 <ais523> tarpits simply don't do that
10:01:57 <nooga> augur: i dont argue ;]
10:02:00 <augur> AnMaster: dennett's simplification of why the Loebner Prize sucks
10:02:06 <augur> his basic analogy is like this
10:02:06 <ais523> I mean, imagine a version of BF which had a command "Replace the current program with an MD5 of it, and run that"
10:02:12 <AnMaster> augur, a price I don't know about either.
10:02:22 <augur> the Loebner Prize is like a test for a city's Greatness
10:02:23 <ais523> that would be less of a tarpit of BF, but also more obstructive (assuming you actually used the command)
10:02:30 <augur> (the loebner prize being a cheapo Turing Test)
10:02:42 <ais523> well, assuming that the md5 was somehow converted into BF commands
10:03:02 <augur> well, its actually a discussion more about the turing test in general not just the loebner prize
10:03:14 <augur> he says we can think of the Turing Test like a test for Great Cities
10:03:23 <augur> and he lists like five things that he thinks makes a city great
10:03:50 <augur> a symphony orchestra, a museum, fancy french italian and japanese restaurants, etc
10:04:11 <AnMaster> ais523, um. that sounds familiar
10:04:14 <augur> and he says look, sure, someone can take podunk iowa and build all of these things and rank very high on the Great City test, while failing to be a great city
10:04:33 <augur> but for the most part, it's a good heuristic, because all the great cities have these things, and the shitty ones dont
10:04:34 <AnMaster> as in a bf variant that ran the checksum of your program
10:04:43 <AnMaster> I think GregorR was involved in it
10:04:55 <augur> therefore the turing test, while not PERFECT, is a pretty good heuristic for finding intelligence.
10:05:01 <nooga> Wasaw is shitty despite having all that stuff
10:05:05 <augur> and then he goes on to say that the loebner prize is so incredibly restricted
10:05:36 <augur> that the contestants are effectively building museusms in shitsville just to pass the great city test
10:10:10 <augur> say what you will about apple, ok
10:10:24 <augur> they damn know how to make a smooth seemless integrated experience
10:11:04 <augur> im currently controlling my itunes library from my iphone
10:11:07 <augur> and i love that i can do that
10:14:38 * AnMaster tries to get thunderbird and his mobile phone to sync contacts
10:14:47 <AnMaster> it seems completely impossible
10:16:18 <AnMaster> the phone isn't the issue, I can easily get stuff off it using bluetooth and then save it to vcard format
10:16:28 <AnMaster> it is thunderbird that is the issue
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11:10:35 <coppro> oh dear, I have like 50 cron emails :(
11:11:01 <coppro> oh the plus side, I think I fixed my filesystem
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11:36:30 <oklokok> fizzie: That's not what I wanted to know; I wanted to know what would make people melt. <<< they really should put up those results, or the holocaust was for nothing
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12:22:27 <oklokok> okay so you know how i learned to stop the hiccups after one hiccup, seems that didn't come without complications, since while my life has been mostly hiccup free, i now get exactly one hiccup per day :D
12:22:43 <oklokok> well, sometimes more, but always hours between
12:31:39 <oklokok> can't really explain, since it happens in my brain
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12:38:07 <Sgeo> You can stop itching?
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12:39:06 <fizzie> But can you stop THE MUSIC?
12:39:22 <oklofok> Sgeo: yes. i've mentioned both these feats numerous times exactly because i assumed people would be interested
12:39:41 <Sgeo> oklofok, I rarely pay attention to #esoteric :/
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14:43:04 <ehird> 00:22:00 <ais523> ugh, this awful TV program my sister's watching had someone working at a terminal
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:10 <ais523> until eventually they got it to pop up some text they could click on to make something happen
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:15 <ais523> which was just normal terminal text
14:43:05 <ehird> 00:22:18 <ais523> that's not how terminals work!
14:44:23 <ehird> [[This is not a language. Any language must have 3 well defined items: 1) Gentle introduction - tutorial, necessary for understanding the idea; 2) A formal definition - a description necessary to reduce number of interpretations; and 3) A working compiler, interpreter, or whatever environment to try it out with examples. I propose a simple small table for each language specifying links for each of those items. The author can fill it or leave it unfilled, but
14:44:35 <ehird> the reader would be able to see if any intelligent effort was made to invent and develop the language. --Oleg 03:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)]]
14:44:41 <ais523> ehird: which page is that on?
14:44:52 <ehird> it's funny because "gentle introduction"
14:45:06 <ehird> gentle introduction is a haskell tutorial that contains a ton of functional programmign jargon
14:45:16 <ehird> and is basically only remotely gentle to ML gurus
14:45:30 <ehird> also since Oleg's name is also that of a crazy haskell/ocaml type system hacker...
14:45:34 <ehird> (and scheme macrology hacker)
14:46:00 <ehird> ais523: i don't suppose we'll be deleting [[Minimal]] :P
14:46:08 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to make the .LOG language myself, aren't I
14:46:12 <ais523> even if it is utterly misguided
14:47:12 <Sgeo> How was it designed to be turing-complete? It can't even do loops!
14:47:55 <Sgeo> Oh, someone mentioned that on Talk
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14:50:33 <ais523> Sgeo: it couldn't even do conditionals before someone pointed out the fact
14:50:39 <ais523> then they added one, which is obviously useless
14:52:22 <Sgeo> ais523, so basically, this person removed []? Why?
14:52:36 <Sgeo> Did they think that it was redundant?
14:52:39 <ais523> to make the language smaller whilst still being TC, obviously
14:52:44 <ehird> http://youhadbetterknow.com/knowledgezone/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/tcp.jpg
14:53:30 <Sgeo> If they wanted to do that, they could remove ., which aren't needed for TC
14:53:43 <ehird> nonsense, TC means 'can output'
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14:54:13 <lament> eyg7p6ntkdffjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
14:54:30 <ais523> *eyg7p5ntkdffjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj
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14:55:30 <ehird> the next are like right keys to each other
14:56:25 <ais523> that was a great quote
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15:07:19 <oklofok> okay / is absolutely hilarious
15:08:08 <oklofok> "The author designed it to be minimal, but Turing-complete." xD
15:08:30 <ehird> oklofok: but it didn't have / first
15:08:31 <ehird> and still had that line
15:09:10 <oklofok> "There, now it has 1 conditional command. --Alegend 00:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)"
15:09:37 <pikhq> Mov is a great conditional.
15:09:56 <pikhq> Mmmm, writable program counter.
15:09:57 <fizzie> The skip-one's in the linked brainfuck minimization page too; though there's also the implicit +[] loop around the whole program.
15:11:49 <ehird> you can do ] in a way by doing / until the end
15:12:21 <oklofok> you mean / makes it tc or the implicit loop?
15:12:48 <fizzie> The combination of both, I guess. A single loop with no conditionals obviously is not enough.
15:12:50 <ehird> with +[] and maybe-skip-one, you can trivially do [ and ]
15:13:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's quite that trivial, actually, since you can't really nest those things and have only that one bit. But it *might* be enough.
15:13:42 <ehird> +[] plus maybe-skip-one is fairly obviously tc
15:14:18 <fizzie> I don't like "fairly obviously" though, you'd better write something more formal there.
15:14:27 <ehird> this is irc, fuck you :P
15:15:50 <oklofok> i have no idea how to even translate one loop to that
15:16:08 <ehird> oklofok: for instance
15:16:30 <ehird> if the read char is 0
15:16:46 <ehird> yes that will work
15:17:11 <oklofok> yes i see how to translate that trivial example
15:17:40 <ehird> man you just hate me
15:18:10 <oklofok> if not zero, execute it once
15:18:29 <ehird> well it's obviously impossible, i mean shit like bct is tc
15:18:36 <ehird> obviously possible
15:18:37 <ehird> but it'll be haaaaaaaard
15:18:37 <oklofok> you need to make it skip the *outer* stuff
15:18:49 <ehird> you need to skip if true
15:18:51 <oklofok> which means you need to, before each end of loop, swap the value
15:18:54 <oklofok> if true, then to false, if false, then to true
15:19:10 <oklofok> but, that's still the trivial translation you meant
15:19:17 <ehird> so /A<swap>/B<swap>/C
15:19:20 <oklofok> it's the actual nesting i don't see how to do obviously
15:19:41 <ehird> let's say +[A[B[C]]D]
15:20:12 <oklofok> i guess you could just add some bookkeeping between cells or something
15:20:15 <ehird> that's (assuming swapped prior, blah blah I don't care) /A<swap>/B/C<swap>/D
15:20:26 <oklofok> like use two bools to control the loops
15:20:30 <ehird> something like that
15:21:00 * Sgeo can't believe he never fixed http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/psox/db_utils.py
15:21:07 <oklofok> could carry them around, and only use one third of the memory otherwise, doing >>> and <<< instead of > and <
15:21:16 <oklofok> which generalizes for more loops
15:21:22 <ehird> Sgeo: god, f00() makes me want to kill you
15:22:13 <Sgeo> If you figure out a way to kill over TCP/IP, yes >.>
15:23:08 <oklofok> well i doubt ehird will even figure out the punchline
15:23:21 <oklofok> to make the worst and most obscure pun of the century
15:24:03 <oklofok> ehird: reference to *punching* over tcp/ip, which you linked, and having an obscure punchline in the pun itself
15:24:09 <ehird> i hate you oklofok.
15:24:10 <oklofok> you will figure neither out, was the point
15:24:46 <Sgeo> ehird, what do you have against lame easter eggs?
15:24:58 <ehird> it sounds like I did when I was 9.
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15:27:25 <oklofok> ehird: you were a mature 9-yo, that's not a trivial joke
15:27:36 <ehird> how is it not trivial
15:28:03 <oklofok> i may be thinking of 5-yo's
15:29:12 <oklofok> i thought it was like a copyright joke or something
15:30:29 <Sgeo> ..It was supposed to be as though the person speaking was in some world where Micky Mouse was some shadowy figure
15:30:54 <ehird> oklofok: okay, so it's even worse than you thought
15:31:49 <oklofok> ehird: then what did you think it meant?
15:32:15 <ehird> umm basically that the government didn't want him to say mickey mouse
15:32:19 <ehird> for no adequately explained reason
15:32:32 <ehird> which Sgeo has just confirmed
15:32:59 <oklofok> well that does sound kinda 9-yo, they are all about evil governments
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15:33:49 <ehird> nah he's actually Deewiant IN DISGUISE
15:33:53 <ehird> his disguise is in australia
15:35:03 <Deewiant> Yes, I'm actually SSHing to a box in Australia and doing stuff from there IN DISGUISE
15:35:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, sshing your body.
15:35:26 <ehird> You actually log in to the disguise body.
15:35:51 <oklofok> Deewiant: try to hide that big bulky D of yours next time
15:36:08 <pikhq> His disguise *is* Australia.
15:36:11 <ehird> Deewiant: he just told you to hide the D!
15:36:52 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU ARE FAILING SPECTACULARLY
15:37:28 <Deewiant> Difficult to do anything about it
15:38:21 <ehird> Deewiant: remove your shift key
15:40:20 <ehird> Deewiant: So is your use of the capital D.
15:40:24 <ehird> It gives away your secret disguise.
15:42:16 <ehird> Deewiant: I am hitting you with a fork.
15:42:34 <ehird> Deewiant: No. *hit*
15:45:23 <ehird> (Decrepit doing dialect)
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15:50:00 <ehird> ha! I saw an article on engadget about how the palm pre updates your location to google and checked Joey's blog (http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/) to see if he had anything about it since he was hacking on the Pre, and simultaneously hit the read more link
15:50:06 <ehird> I was confused when two pages loaded with the same content
15:52:34 <ehird> "This not news at all. And neither is it anything out of the ordinary. If you read any of the EULA for ANY device, it is able to send usage information."
15:52:34 <ehird> ↑ okay, jesus, why do I read the comments
15:52:48 <ehird> no it is not okay to keep Palm and Google updated on your precise coordinates automatically without your consent!
15:53:06 <ehird> well, ok, the blanket "we will send info to google" when you first turn it on counts as consent
15:53:08 <ehird> but hardly expected
15:53:23 <ehird> pikhq: what about it
15:54:13 <pikhq> ehird: surely reading the comments is a particularly inefficient way of commiting suicide?
15:54:18 <pikhq> (by way of killing brain cells)
15:54:26 <ehird> but I didn't ask you, I asked jesus!
15:54:43 <pikhq> Sorry; that was my nickname in high school.]
15:55:27 <pikhq> I look a lot like popular portrayals of Jesus.
15:55:52 <ehird> pikhq: I thought the second coming would be more exciting than this
15:56:10 <ehird> or are you just popping in
15:56:10 <pikhq> ehird: I have yet to start the earth-shattering-ness.
15:56:17 <ehird> but I like the earth!
15:56:30 <pikhq> I'm just going to hang out for another couple of decades.
15:56:51 <ehird> then you'll die and return from the dead many, many eons in the future
15:57:02 <ehird> when quantum fluctuations in the dead universe cause you to pop into existence
15:57:08 <pikhq> It doesn't really *start* until the singularity starts a-going.
15:57:34 <ehird> Can't you just do that for us.
15:57:53 <pikhq> But you're about to do that for yourselves.
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15:58:20 <ehird> Evidently if Jesus is coming to earth you aren't a fan of leaving things to ourselves. :P
15:58:40 <pikhq> I'm just leaving the singularity to yourselves.
15:59:29 <pikhq> No, I need to wait a bit more before bringing out the horsemen of the apocalypse.
15:59:38 <ehird> And you wonder why the Jews killed you!
15:59:48 <ehird> All this omni*ence, and you can't even give us a singularity.
16:00:37 * pikhq gives ehird's computer the breath of life
16:00:56 <ehird> How long until it replicates?
16:01:31 <ehird> pikhq: can't you run it on IBM Roadrunner?
16:02:54 <ehird> pikhq: fine, I'll migrate the process myself.
16:02:56 <pikhq> ehird: I should specify: it can't replicate itself until it is running on the entire Internet. It'll take about 15 years to install itself on everything. Once that's done, it can replicate the physical machinery indefinitely.
16:03:08 <ehird> What kind of shitty architecture is that?
16:03:12 <ehird> Can't it deploy in pieces?
16:03:36 <pikhq> Hush. It's electronic biology.
16:04:02 <pikhq> Been evolving it in a universe VM for a few billion years now.
16:04:22 <ehird> Man, it'd be quicker just to let the internet become a hivemind.
16:05:42 * ehird patches the source code
16:05:47 <ehird> pikhq: is it Friendly before full replication?
16:10:47 <ehird> kay, I'ma just run my patched version
16:10:57 -!- ehird has changed nick to singularity.
16:11:10 -!- singularity has changed nick to ehird.
16:11:32 <ehird> I appear to lack a body.
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16:54:05 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/08/eccerobot-in-a-shirt-rm-eng.jpg
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17:45:55 <ehird> apparently, the iPhone 3G S costs just $6.50 to actually manufacture all the components
17:46:41 <ehird> although the manufacturers apple gets the components from add high overhead ofc
17:46:44 <ehird> i could be reading it wrong though
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18:20:12 <GregorR> Wooh, I can finally send a message from here :P
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18:27:22 <ehird> HOME KICK-FLIPPIN' HOME
18:30:23 -!- ehird has set topic: Controlled Substances in Space: Extending Programming Languages to Pure Insanity. Get your copy on arxiv today! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:32:05 <ehird> "On April 28, 2007, Valkonen warned the Arch Linux maintainers of possible legal action because the (unofficial) Arch User Repository contained scripts to install Ion3 with patches he did not approve of[3]."
18:32:28 <ehird> I have an excruciating urge to fork Ion from the last sanely licensed version and update it, even though I don't use it.
18:40:09 <ehird> seems like ion3 rc1 circa may 2007 changed the license
18:40:51 <oklofok> youtube is such a craphole
18:41:03 <ehird> oklofok: http://quietube.com/
18:41:14 <ehird> add a bookmark, click it when you hit a youtube link, voila, instant lack of comments
18:41:36 <oklofok> because certain music only exists there in live form
18:41:37 <ehird> what on earth else could be bad about youtube :P
18:41:47 <ehird> oklofok: torrents bitch
18:42:55 <oklofok> well, if there was a prog that downloaded the torrent, and started playing the song right away
18:43:07 <ehird> while downloading? impossible
18:43:12 <oklofok> but the system doesn't really work like that
18:44:07 <oklofok> well i don't know anything about mp3's, but formats that don't need to be completely loaded to play
18:44:18 <oklofok> all the vid formats work like that
18:44:51 <ehird> torrents download in unpredictable block order
18:45:10 <oklofok> well right, not possible like that
18:45:22 <oklofok> yes, true. that's what i meant by "system doesn't work bla bla"
18:45:53 <oklofok> although probably you can cheat them into sending you what you want
18:46:17 <oklofok> or is that just for files within the torrent?
18:47:25 <oklofok> i haven't read the protocol
18:47:41 <oklofok> i just know what torrent lets you do
18:55:44 <ehird> just for files, yeah
18:57:15 <oklofok> there has to be something going on where you could cheat, at least a bit, because knowledge about the scarceness of the blocks is distributed
18:57:26 <oklofok> ehird: just what i said, wondering how you can know that
18:57:52 <ehird> oklofok: how can you know that the sky is prolly blue if you have contact with people but can't look at it?
18:57:59 <ehird> tons of clients let you select files, as far as I know none let you download sequentially
18:58:02 <ehird> nor have I heard anything of the sort
18:58:44 <oklofok> because someone would cheat if it was possible
18:58:48 <ehird> you might be able to say "I only need this block", but I expect that'd lead to really slow downloads
18:58:57 <ehird> because nobody's offering that specific block atm
18:59:12 <ehird> also if you only need one block then only need one other one the clients will prolly go "wtf?"
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19:15:38 * ehird considers using awk as a scripting language
19:28:14 * GregorR considers tearing off ehird's face via the webernets
19:28:27 <ehird> http://github.com/darius/awklisp/blob/d00c4e5bc7f1ffffb0cc7cc939861ffe5df79990/awklisp
19:28:55 <ehird> sheesh, it just looks like a lightweight scriipting language
20:10:49 <ehird> fizzie: oklofok: achievement unlocked, 277 seconds
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20:34:03 <oklofok> ehird: also if you only need one block then only need one other one the clients will prolly go "wtf?" <<< right, you're basically saying the protocol has a way to say "wtf"
20:34:29 <oklofok> which i'm not saying it doesn't have
20:34:53 <oklofok> well, also there's the other problem you mentioned, if the blocks simply aren't available atm, that's of course impossible to get around
20:35:02 <ehird> but the clients will go "hey, i gave that guy that block, he should be done now"
20:35:49 <oklofok> are you saying most users do that, and will block that guy from that on?
20:36:37 <ehird> i'm also just guessing
20:40:14 <oklofok> right, and i'm not saying i disagree, just wondering
20:40:27 <ehird> anyway clients would blacklist you since it's bad behaviour
20:40:32 <oklofok> i don't guess, i just ponder and wonder and pretty much all other synonyms
20:40:57 <oklofok> i didn't even know there's a blacklist in any clients
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20:42:34 <oklofok> and i don't really see how anyone could behave in such a manner that i'd notice, i mean i don't even see why i'd mind anyone downloading blocks in sequential order, because i don't see any social responsibility when it comes to random protocols
20:42:59 <oklofok> augur: hello, you are an irc person and i greet you
20:43:34 <augur> hows it goin in finnishlandia
20:44:21 <oklofok> but i'd guess nothing has happened
20:45:09 <oklofok> "other synonyms"? :D i probably meant "everything else that rhymes"
20:45:11 <augur> hows it goin in the part of finnishlandia that you're in right now, namely your room/whatever
20:45:26 <augur> i got an iphone :x
20:45:28 <oklofok> oh you meant the obvious meaning
20:45:31 <augur> and im moving in under a week
20:45:32 <ehird> oklofok: synonyms?
20:45:38 <ehird> augur: you bought an iphone ... even after all the app store shit?
20:45:42 <augur> auto-antonyms are cooler
20:45:46 <ehird> i can understand not throwing away one, i sure didn't
20:45:53 * ehird gives augur a dunce cap
20:45:55 <oklofok> ehird: i noticed it too, in time
20:46:08 <augur> ehird: if by appstore shit you mean the annoyance of getting stuff on the appstore, yes, because im not buying many apps
20:46:08 * ehird draws "apple fellater" on said cap
20:46:18 <ehird> augur: no, I mean apple's dictatorial whims
20:46:25 <oklofok> augur: "moving in"? why "in"?
20:46:25 <ehird> without logic and crippling the platform
20:46:31 <ehird> oklofok: where did you say synonyms
20:46:34 <oklofok> you just mean to your new apartment?
20:46:38 <augur> yes, same thing. i dont need it or want it for the magic apps.
20:47:05 <ehird> augur: it's still supporting it by buying it
20:47:13 <augur> oklofok: not "moving in", moving, in under a week. "in" can denote a period of time
20:47:24 <ehird> oklofok: let's spoonerise ponder and wonder
20:47:28 <ehird> ponder + wonder = ponder
20:47:30 <ehird> wonder + ponder = wonder
20:47:34 <augur> oklofok, ponder and wonder are not almost synonyms :|
20:47:55 <augur> auto-antonyms are still better
20:48:11 <ehird> sex is the autoantonym of sex
20:48:37 <oklofok> yeah i totally meant they actually are almost synonymous. although now that i actually think about it, their intersection is not empty.
20:49:21 <oklofok> about the question somewhere up there
20:50:13 <oklofok> it's going awesomely, university starts again, soon \o/
20:50:22 <augur> thats why im moving!
20:50:38 <oklofok> and in quite a different setup, even
20:50:49 <ehird> i wish i could have my own place and go to uni
20:50:52 <ehird> you, you, adults, you.
20:51:06 <oklofok> people have gone to uni at your age
20:51:15 <ehird> i'm not super-smart though.
20:51:26 <ehird> also kinda awkward you know?
20:51:29 <oklofok> you would do fine at our uni
20:51:37 <ehird> oklofok: no i wouldn't, i can't speak finnish.
20:51:53 <oklofok> well all our advanced courses are in english
20:52:08 <ehird> but those are the ones I'd fail at :P
20:52:10 <oklofok> but i guess you'd need to get your bachelor's somewhere else
20:52:39 <oklofok> with a certain amount of strategy, i doubt it
20:52:55 <ehird> anyway it'd still be awkward
20:53:04 <ehird> since i look and sound younger than 14
20:53:28 <ehird> also while i may be decently acceptable at cs i kinda suck at everything else sooo
20:54:02 -!- anm_ub has joined.
20:54:14 <ehird> A— never mind, undefined behaviour.
20:54:46 <anm_ub> not on my bouncer atm (computer turned off due to dead cpu fan, getting a replacement tomorrow)
20:54:47 <oklofok> there are many simple courses whose content you mostly know already
20:54:50 <anm_ub> http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~springer/
20:55:12 <ehird> oklofok: are you just assuming :D
20:55:19 <ehird> anm_ub: seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
20:55:47 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:55:55 <ehird> anm_ub: anyway it kind of needs to suck less
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20:56:21 <anm_ub> ehird, however, I heard about some library using something similar with pro equipment, with good results
20:56:40 <anm_ub> someone I know mentioned it, haven't managed to find a link, that person is now hunting for a link
20:57:06 <anm_ub> ehird, and yes, as the page says: written during a few late nights
20:57:28 <ehird> a good version would simulate every single quark making up the record
20:57:30 <anm_ub> so I'm pretty sure that even with consumer grade scanner you could manage better if you spent some time on it
20:57:32 <oklofok> <ehird> oklofok: are you just assuming :D <<< no, but i know that there's an "advanced" course called xhtml.
20:57:37 <ehird> and actually play the record
20:57:40 <ehird> then measure the vibrations
20:57:46 <oklofok> well actually "but" was kinda weird there
20:57:46 <ehird> oklofok: i'll pass on that one :P
20:58:15 <oklofok> ehird: i'm just saying you'd ace it. then again, so does everyone else
20:58:16 <anm_ub> ehird, nah, you need to actually know the correct encoding scheme. see the note added to the bottom of the linked page
20:58:25 <anm_ub> turned out he wasn't exactly right about the encoding
20:58:57 <ehird> oklofok: consider that my opinion is that anything easier than MIT isn't worth bothering with
20:59:06 <ehird> and consider whether i'd bother with that uni :D
20:59:38 <oklofok> ehird: the other course you might own is the one about compilation, unfortunately that's one of the few that are in finnish
21:00:28 <oklofok> i have no idea how hard MIT is compared to ours, although yes, it's probably a lot harder.
21:00:28 <anm_ub> oklofok, about how to compile or how to write a compiler?
21:00:56 <anm_ub> as in, is it "this is where you press compile in MSVC" or "lets write a simple compiler"?
21:01:05 <ehird> oklofok: [[the difficulty of MIT coursework has been characterized as "drinking from a fire hose"]]
21:01:09 <oklofok> anm_ub: what's the difference?
21:01:21 <anm_ub> oklofok, wasn't that clear from the line with "as in"?
21:01:30 <ehird> ([[the failure rate and freshmen retention rate at MIT are similar to other large research universities]] but then their admission rate is 11% so)
21:01:52 <anm_ub> btw my lag seems quite a bit worse when using wlan, compared to ethernet
21:01:59 <oklofok> anm_ub: oh lol, about how to write a compiler :P
21:02:08 <ehird> anm_ub: get a draft n router
21:02:20 <ehird> there's some linksyses that do that
21:02:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well, to even be able to connect at all with the wireless driver for intel cards in linux I currently need to pass disable_11n module parameter
21:02:52 <ehird> anm_ub: it's 110MB/s wireless
21:02:58 <ehird> with TCP/IP overhead
21:03:04 <ehird> (note: MB means "megabit")
21:03:07 <anm_ub> ehird, the bandwidth isn't the issue.... the latency is
21:03:13 <ehird> anm_ub: well, shrug
21:03:16 <anm_ub> according to traceroute
21:03:37 <ehird> anm_ub: what other issues are there with the hardware? i will be buying a thinkpad tomorrow or so probably
21:03:51 <anm_ub> ehird, lag to router over ethernet: 3-4 ms. Over wlan: 20-30 ms
21:03:57 <oklofok> ehird: our cs dep doesn't have that much coursework, usually you read a book or attend lectures
21:04:10 <oklofok> which i find a good thing in cs
21:04:10 <ehird> oklofok: so no tests? :D
21:04:34 <anm_ub> ehird, not much, the radio killswitch sometimes confuses linux... though suspend/wake up is enough to fix that
21:04:49 <anm_ub> fingerprint reader not supported
21:05:04 <ehird> [[Undergraduates are required to complete an extensive core curriculum called the General Institute Requirements (GIRs). The science requirement, generally completed during freshman year as prerequisites for classes in science and engineering majors, comprises two
21:05:07 <ehird> semesters of physics classes covering classical mechanics and electricity and magnetism, two semesters of math covering single variable calculus and multivariable calculus, one semester of chemistry, and one semester of biology. Undergraduates are required to take a laboratory class in their major, eight Humanities, Arts, and Social
21:05:08 <ehird> Sciences (HASS) classes (at least three in a concentration and another four unrelated subjects), and non-varsity athletes must also take four physical education classes.]]
21:05:12 <ehird> found when reading the mit article
21:05:15 <anm_ub> ehird, if you use bios password you need to enter it when resuming from disk, not needed for resume from disk under windows it seems
21:05:22 <ehird> that'd be fun, it'd be like suicide
21:05:31 <anm_ub> ehird, the wireless is the only major issue however
21:05:39 <ehird> anm_ub: what about the intel graphics
21:05:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well yes. that has some issues as I mentioned before
21:05:56 <anm_ub> but nothing mission critical for me
21:05:57 <ehird> anm_ub: i'm talking mainly performance
21:06:01 <ehird> would be nice to do some gaming
21:06:07 <ehird> and according to xkcd fullscreen flash is too laggy with intel
21:06:12 <oklofok> ehird: what sounded like suicide in that?
21:06:19 <anm_ub> ehird, haven't tried flash
21:06:20 <ehird> sounds like a pretty bad driver situation
21:06:25 <ehird> oklofok: the fact where i suck at like all of it
21:06:33 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, card reader works perfectly
21:06:44 <ehird> oklofok: you don't even get to do CS until you complete it xD
21:06:48 <anm_ub> it supports a few more
21:06:49 <oklofok> well that sounds like suicide to me, in that you need to take uninteresting subjects
21:07:11 <ehird> eh i don't care about that, more the "wow i would fail spectacularly" aspect
21:07:30 <ehird> anm_ub: oh! do you have a LED screen
21:07:33 <ehird> or is it a normal tft
21:07:39 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway try ati graphics if you prefer, but see thinkwiki about power usage, suspend, and about everything else iirc
21:07:40 <oklofok> but i don't think it'd actually be that *hard* taking introductory courses in many subjects instead of a progression in one subject
21:07:49 <ehird> anm_ub: no ati graphics on the x-series ultraportables
21:07:52 <anm_ub> ehird, TFT I think, how would I see the difference
21:08:08 <ehird> anm_ub: LEDs are still TFTs :P
21:08:11 <ehird> anm_ub: i'll check the r500 specs
21:08:23 <anm_ub> ehird, it has backlight, I can change it using Fn-Home/End
21:08:32 <anm_ub> all the function keys seems to work under ubuntu
21:08:34 <ehird> every screen has a backlight apart from OLED.
21:08:40 <oklofok> ehird: well, i guess it's possible you'd fail, i don't know how well you actually study, i just know how well you do stuff you already know, which is well enough in the subject of ...popular nerdery
21:08:43 <anm_ub> but what is the diff then
21:08:44 <ehird> anm_ub: okay it's CCFL not LED
21:08:55 <anm_ub> ehird, how would I know the damn diff
21:08:56 <ehird> anm_ub: LED has much better colours, uses less battery, is brighter, ...
21:09:02 <ehird> i'm checking the spec sheet
21:09:05 <anm_ub> ehird, well I don't have anything to compare to
21:09:11 <anm_ub> ehird, it works for me though
21:09:59 <anm_ub> ehird, there were some minor issues in ubuntu that were relatively trivial to fix
21:10:05 <ehird> anm_ub: ok the display in the x200 i'm getting is 200-nits brightness like yours and CCFL
21:10:08 <ehird> so i have a question
21:10:16 <ehird> is there any direct sunlight where you are atm
21:10:37 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, a florescent lamp only. Dark outside, streetlights on
21:10:56 <ehird> will there likely be some tomorrow? I need the ability to use the laptop outside
21:11:05 <ehird> so it'd be really appreciated if you could check :)
21:11:11 <anm_ub> ehird, forcast is TSRA
21:11:22 <ehird> Total Shit Rain Abomination
21:11:30 <anm_ub> ehird, METAR for ThunderStorm Rain
21:11:33 <ehird> raindrops of feces, impressive
21:11:55 <ehird> anm_ub: well, does it look bright enough to use outside? I've read two reviews of the X200 that say the backlight isn't bright enough...
21:12:11 <anm_ub> ehird, learn METAR. It gives you quite a few geek points (not sure in what category though!)
21:12:30 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, you said yours was a different screen
21:12:38 <ehird> it's a different size and dpi
21:12:41 <ehird> but same backlight and same nits
21:12:47 <anm_ub> ehird, as for outside, I have only tried it on a veranda with roof
21:12:53 <anm_ub> was bright enough there
21:12:57 <anm_ub> not sure about direct sun light
21:13:07 <ehird> the key thing is if the sunlight is actually shining on a display
21:13:16 <anm_ub> ehird, I usually use it on half brightness when on battery
21:13:33 <ehird> the one i'm getting has a 9 hour battery life with reasonable brightness
21:13:38 <ehird> so i'm fine turning it to 100% for outside use
21:13:56 <anm_ub> ehird, I manage about 4.5 hours (tested today during thunderstorms)
21:14:04 <anm_ub> shut it off when it was at 10% load
21:14:05 <ehird> and with the same processor/ram as yours
21:14:10 <anm_ub> oh and started on 70% charge
21:14:39 <anm_ub> for longest battery life you should set the thinkpad to start charging only at 40% charged battery or lower
21:14:59 <anm_ub> I do it in /etc/rc.local
21:15:06 <ehird> i plan to be recharging it every day after a full amount of use, soo :P
21:15:13 <ehird> anm_ub: but anyway, direct sunlight with a glossy display, it blots out everything else; matte display with not-so-good backlight, it gets washed out and partially blots things out; matte display with a good backlight, nothing changes
21:15:14 <anm_ub> (setting kept during suspend to ram, but not during suspend to disk/shutdown)
21:15:24 <ehird> it's matte, so I guess the reviews are pointing to #2
21:16:06 <anm_ub> ehird, well you should not recharge to 100% or let it get less than 30-40%
21:16:15 <ehird> ubuntu prolly does that by default.
21:16:25 <ehird> how easy is it to change
21:16:32 <anm_ub> ehird, two lines in /etc/rc.local
21:16:38 <anm_ub> simple enough for you?
21:16:49 <anm_ub> echo 70 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/stop_charge_thresh
21:16:50 <anm_ub> echo 40 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/start_charge_thresh
21:17:00 <anm_ub> make sure the module tp_smapi is loaded
21:17:28 <anm_ub> ehird, harddisk protection thingy: will be supported when ubuntu changes to a newer kernel
21:17:58 <ehird> anm_ub: who cares? SSD.
21:18:11 <ehird> although it'd be fun to use it for things
21:18:14 <ehird> snice it's a regular accelerometer
21:18:47 <anm_ub> ehird, an odd hardware issue I have though is that when I connect some usb devices the computer produces a whine, not dissimilar to the CRT whine
21:19:05 <anm_ub> it applies to my mouse and my printer, but not some usb memory sticks
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21:19:10 <ehird> doesn't matter to me. well, i might use a usb headset.
21:19:19 <ehird> but i don't plan to carry around usb crap
21:19:26 <ehird> uber-happy that the x200 has 3g internet built in :)
21:19:34 <anm_ub> ehird, except sometimes it is the reverse. as in it whines without the mouse connected
21:19:42 <anm_ub> after a reboot it reverted back though
21:20:10 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway, the main issue is the wlan. And possibly graphics for you
21:20:43 <anm_ub> ehird, another minor detail that had issues on ubuntu was configuring the touchpad. Needed to tell hal to enable shmconfig for X
21:20:58 <anm_ub> but not advanced config
21:21:06 <anm_ub> like that provided by gsynaptics
21:21:12 <anm_ub> or whatever the app is called
21:21:45 -!- Tritonio has left (?).
21:22:05 <anm_ub> ehird, third minor issue: ubuntu has no clue about the udev events generated when you pull the eject ultrabay slider thingy
21:22:14 <anm_ub> thinkwiki has a script for it though
21:22:37 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway only thing annoying me atm is the whine and the wlan
21:22:47 <anm_ub> and the graphics slightly
21:22:52 <anm_ub> but that isn't a major issue to me
21:23:16 <anm_ub> ehird, how often will you use the cd?
21:23:59 <anm_ub> I was ripping a cd today, and it made the whole laptop vibrate. would be quite effective as a vibrator I guess XD
21:25:56 <anm_ub> ehird, one minor issue I just noticed: trackpoint needs cleaning
21:26:08 <anm_ub> it is kind of uneven in texture for better grip
21:26:33 <anm_ub> but dirt accumulate there, you just need a small stiff brush it seems
21:28:17 <anm_ub> ehird, over all, it could have been much worse when it comes to hardware
21:28:32 <anm_ub> considering what I heard from people with non-thinkpads
21:29:17 <anm_ub> ehird, oh another odd thing. You know those intel inside stickers?
21:29:27 <anm_ub> well it says "Intel Centrino 2 inside" on it
21:29:33 <anm_ub> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz
21:29:39 <anm_ub> is what /proc/cpuinfo says
21:29:48 <anm_ub> so I guess they managed to put on the wrong sticker
21:29:55 <anm_ub> also that isn't "brb" any longer ehird
21:30:00 <anm_ub> it is "bbiab" and soon "bbl"
21:31:09 <anm_ub> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_hotswap_UltraBay_devices#Using_libata-acpi_and_udev
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21:42:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:44:24 <Sgeo> GNOME spazzed out on me for no discernable reason
21:45:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:49:17 <anm_ub> <-- AnMaster, but not on normal bouncer due to broken cpu fan in that computer
21:49:28 <anm_ub> and well, to lazy to dig out nickserv password and such
21:49:39 <anm_ub> since I will get a new cpu fan tomorrow
21:54:20 <Sgeo> anm_ub, the menu thing and taskbar thing disappeared, some strange windows appeared
21:54:26 <Sgeo> When everything recovered, XChat was dead
21:54:44 <Sgeo> And some stuff in the system tray equivelent is gone
21:54:46 <anm_ub> Sgeo, what sort of strange window?
21:55:10 <Sgeo> Small windows, apparently representing stuff that was in the tray
21:55:30 <anm_ub> Sgeo, maybe you managed to undock part of the tray?
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22:07:08 -!- Asztal has joined.
22:14:56 <ehird> [21:29] anm_ub: well it says "Intel Centrino 2 inside" on it
22:15:00 <ehird> centrino 2 is core 2.
22:15:21 <ehird> [21:20] anm_ub: ehird, another minor detail that had issues on ubuntu was configuring the touchpad. Needed to tell hal to enable shmconfig for X
22:15:21 <ehird> no touchpad on the x200
22:15:25 <ehird> [21:23] anm_ub: ehird, how often will you use the cd?
22:17:05 <ehird> anyway is the wlan issue just latency?
22:17:14 <ehird> i can wait for better intel graphics drivers
22:17:29 <anm_ub> ehird, connecting to WPA/WPA2 networks takes ages sometimes
22:17:51 <anm_ub> more often than not ubuntu times out a few times before I manage to connect
22:17:57 <anm_ub> so minutes most of the time
22:18:11 <anm_ub> ehird, known and reported bug
22:18:16 <anm_ub> lots of variants of it reported
22:18:18 <ehird> anyway, i like how you pointed out things about the touchpad and cd as main things when I won't have either :P
22:18:25 <anm_ub> not sure if mine exact version
22:18:33 <anm_ub> ehird, not main things, trivial things
22:18:41 <ehird> as for the trackpoint, I have a question - is it the pencil-eraser rough kind of thing, or the rubber-with-bobbles?
22:18:55 <anm_ub> ehird, oh for the trackpoint, "tap trackpoint to click" doesn't work for me
22:19:05 <anm_ub> seems to be a "too old kernel in ubuntu" issue again
22:19:59 <ehird> oh, darn, apparently the x200 has an option for a WXGA+ LED but it's not listed due to being out of stock
22:20:15 <ehird> 12.1" 1440x900 matte LED display would be a godsend
22:20:42 <anm_ub> ehird, is it synaptics or ALPS that provided the trackpoint
22:20:52 <anm_ub> the tap to click seems to not yet work on ALPS
22:20:56 <ehird> ThinkPads INVENTED the trackpoint.
22:20:59 <anm_ub> which is what my thinkpad has
22:21:09 <anm_ub> ehird, yes, but it is still ALPS on this
22:21:15 <ehird> what about the texture
22:21:16 <anm_ub> ALPS dual point or something
22:21:24 <anm_ub> so ALPS touchpad and ALPS trackpoint
22:21:28 <anm_ub> handled by synaptics driver
22:22:27 <ehird> [[1.) The high res screen is on backorder an in short supply right now. They should be getting more, but not sure when. The high res screen is only offered on the X200s, not the X200.]]
22:22:39 <ehird> the x200s only has like a 1.8ghz low voltage processor so it's not an option
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22:22:49 <ehird> so i don't have to delay squirming
22:22:56 <ehird> ...rather, I dont' have to delay while squirming
22:24:10 <oerjan> delaying squirming can be painful. i would not recommend it.
22:24:12 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway do you have expresscard?
22:24:23 <ehird> i'll check whether it has one
22:24:28 <anm_ub> because the wlan issue is not yet fixed even in 2.6.31
22:24:34 <anm_ub> so it may take a while
22:24:46 <ehird> anm_ub: yes, there is an expresscard.
22:24:54 <ehird> also, are you really sure everyone has this problem?
22:24:57 <anm_ub> getting a separate wlan card might be your best option
22:25:03 <anm_ub> ehird, well, lots of users have it
22:25:12 <ehird> anm_ub: I'm not sacrificing the portability of this machine at all
22:25:13 <anm_ub> and since most networks are open or WEP...
22:25:26 <anm_ub> ehird, it isn't unportable using such a card?
22:25:37 <ehird> anm_ub: dude, with a nine-hour batter it weighs 1.6kg
22:25:47 <anm_ub> yes that is very light
22:25:56 <ehird> with a 3 hour batery, 1.34kg
22:26:14 <ehird> anm_ub: so adding _anything_ makes it a lot less portable
22:26:28 <ehird> (also, it has a proper core 2 cpu, yet is cool enough to fit on a lap)
22:26:33 <ehird> truly a marvel of modern technology!
22:26:35 <anm_ub> ehird, 3 kg is still portable. and a express card is quite light
22:26:45 <ehird> if 3kg was ok, I wouldn't be getting an x200
22:26:56 <ehird> i'm a little scrawny weakling, for one
22:27:02 <ehird> for another, we probably have different ideas of portable
22:27:21 <anm_ub> ehird, able to use at uni, will use backpack to transport on bus?
22:27:31 <anm_ub> that is, bus with wheels, not system bus
22:27:45 <ehird> can carry with one hand effortlessly.
22:27:55 <ehird> I guess I should say "ultraportable"
22:28:03 <ehird> I mean, anything under like 5kg is "portable" in your sense
22:28:25 <anm_ub> ehird, can carry with one hand holding your hand around the lower edge with the laptop between yourself and your arm?
22:28:51 <ehird> With the X200, I believe you can carry it just holding on to the little bulging bit of the 9-cell battery.
22:29:03 <ehird> I mean, let's put it this way
22:29:07 <anm_ub> ehird, sounds dangerous
22:29:13 <ehird> With the 4-cell (= 3hr) battery, it weighs less than the MacBook Air.
22:29:25 <ehird> 0.02kg less, admittedly, but still less.
22:30:02 <ehird> (And it packs the same pixels in just a 1.2" smaller display, DOESN'T have soldered RAM, has a replaceable battery, has a 2.4GHz/2.5GHz CPU...)
22:30:06 <anm_ub> ehird, 0.02 kg might be what a pc-express wlan card weighs
22:30:09 <ehird> although it loses on thinkness
22:30:17 <ehird> anm_ub: I wouldn't carry it with just a 3 hour battery
22:30:40 <ehird> anm_ub: Anyway, I don't need WPA.
22:30:46 <ehird> I can just make my network WEP, no big shakes.
22:30:57 <anm_ub> ehird, well haven't tried WEP, some said it helped
22:31:05 <ehird> i wonder whether I should do whole disk encryption
22:31:11 <anm_ub> btw it seems to be worse after a suspend to disk or ram
22:31:17 <ehird> setting a password + using linux will defeat anyone stupid enough to steal a laptop
22:31:18 <anm_ub> the wlan issues I mean
22:31:38 <ehird> i can make it unprotected too :P
22:31:52 <ehird> how much battery does yours get?
22:31:56 <anm_ub> ehird, well I meant, some said that was an issue too
22:32:26 <anm_ub> ehird, as I said above. ~4.5 hours on a 75% -> 15% uncharge
22:32:32 <ehird> that's with the 9-cell battery isn't it
22:32:43 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, opted for battery not sticking out
22:33:04 <anm_ub> ehird, and decided to get extra battery in ultrabay if I needed it
22:33:16 <ehird> ultrabay costs £100 :(
22:33:45 <ehird> the ultrabay itself
22:33:58 <anm_ub> it is where you place the cd drive
22:34:11 <ehird> i thought you meant
22:34:15 <ehird> which costs £100 from lenovo
22:34:31 <ehird> incidentally, piccy of x200: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg (the right one), closed: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34765.jpg (the top one)
22:34:37 <ehird> i love how it looks when closed
22:34:56 <ehird> (http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/thinkpad_x200_02.jpg sticky outy 9-cell battery-y)
22:35:04 * anm_ub waits for browser to load
22:35:15 <anm_ub> takes a bit while installing an OS in vmware at the same time
22:35:24 <anm_ub> and three rows of saved tabs to load
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22:35:56 <anm_ub> <ehird> i love how it looks when closed <-- ?
22:36:06 <ehird> [22:34] ehird: incidentally, piccy of x200: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg (the right one), closed: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34765.jpg (the top one)
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22:36:37 <ehird> it looks like... a slab
22:36:44 <anm_ub> ehird, on the open one, what is the thing above the screen
22:37:04 <ehird> has the camera and microphone and I suppose those are the speakers
22:37:08 <ehird> either that or the speakers are under the keyboard
22:37:21 <anm_ub> ehird, I have the diagonal pattern thing above too
22:37:30 <anm_ub> speakers on side of keyboard
22:37:31 <ehird> then what was your question
22:37:37 <anm_ub> ehird, the camera thingy
22:37:49 <anm_ub> so had no clue what it was
22:38:04 <anm_ub> ehird, and well the diagonal thing could be spakers
22:38:07 <ehird> anm_ub: no chance of getting speakers on the side of the keyboard; it's the whole width and about 28cm wide
22:38:12 <anm_ub> since there is nothing on the side of the keyboard there
22:38:12 <ehird> also, yes, probably.
22:38:18 <anm_ub> ehird, built in speakers = crap
22:38:37 <ehird> I'll probably get a usb headset when I need it.
22:38:39 <anm_ub> ehird, really crap. Even a non-music lover can hear it
22:38:45 <ehird> yes, laptops tend to be
22:38:50 <ehird> fine for system sounds, though. :P
22:39:09 <anm_ub> ehird, about slab: it looks like a closed non-mac laptop. ;P
22:39:10 <ehird> anm_ub: btw, the thing in between the two red trackpoint buttons
22:39:15 <ehird> is it a scrollwheel or what?
22:39:28 <anm_ub> ehird, middle mouse button
22:39:45 <ehird> also, no it doesn't!
22:39:48 <ehird> most of them have a curve
22:40:00 <anm_ub> ehird, iirc windows drivers maps it to "scroll with trackpoint"
22:40:02 <ehird> this is just a rectangle slab of rubbery plastic
22:40:05 <ehird> ...well, with a bit of a bulge.
22:40:10 <anm_ub> saw something about it
22:40:20 <ehird> anm_ub: so no physical scrollwheel?
22:40:31 <ehird> up/down keys aren't fine-grained enough, make me dizzy :(
22:40:39 <anm_ub> ehird, I use the edge areas of the touchpad to scroll with
22:40:47 <anm_ub> and everything else: the trackpoint
22:40:50 <anm_ub> atm I have a mouse connected
22:40:51 <ehird> i'll just do that with my INVISIBLE TOUCHPAD
22:41:08 <anm_ub> ehird, anyway you might be able to map it to scroll with trackpoint
22:41:15 <ehird> seems a bit of a pain
22:41:16 <anm_ub> saw something on thinkwiki about it
22:41:36 <ehird> i'll get used to it
22:41:44 <anm_ub> so you need to figure out the right XML file to edit to tell ubuntu about it
22:41:50 <anm_ub> since it uses hal for X config
22:42:04 <ehird> i know it uses xml.
22:42:08 <anm_ub> ehird, oh and gconf uses xml too
22:42:16 <ehird> i don't care, they're serialisation formats
22:42:24 <anm_ub> ehird, you forgot a t there
22:42:34 <ehird> no, XML is a metaformat.
22:42:36 <anm_ub> (and added an "a" too much)
22:42:48 <anm_ub> ehird, sterilisation formats :P
22:42:52 <ehird> anyway, i'm explicitly trying to avoid plugging in a mouse etc because i don't want to discourage myself from taking advantage of its portability; I'm paying extra for it after all :P
22:43:23 <ehird> speaking of sterilisation, I wonder how they managed to cool a Core 2 Duo 2.4GHz without getting hot on your lap
22:43:38 <anm_ub> ehird, desktop it stands on gets luke warm for me
22:43:53 <ehird> well I'm going for the 2.5GHz
22:43:56 <ehird> but they're identical apart from max speed
22:44:04 <ehird> and I doubt I'll be supercomputing on my lap
22:44:17 <ehird> anm_ub: the X200's CPU idles at 31 C iirc
22:44:23 <anm_ub> ehird, this isn't idle
22:44:31 <anm_ub> mine idles at around 30-35 C too
22:44:38 <anm_ub> 30 for one core, 35 for the other
22:44:39 <ehird> it's a new fan design thingy
22:44:43 <ehird> that's also uber-quiet
22:44:46 <ehird> maybe yours has it too
22:44:50 <anm_ub> ehird, the fan is quite quiet
22:44:52 <ehird> anm_ub: 35 is high
22:45:06 <ehird> 31 is comfortable, I'd say; I doubt anything above that is
22:45:08 <anm_ub> ehird, well.. that isn't completely unloaded I guess
22:45:26 <ehird> reports on the X200 say that the fan is almost completely inaudible
22:45:33 <ehird> anm_ub: I'm saying laptop on purpose because the X200 CAN go on your lap
22:45:41 <anm_ub> <ehird> reports on the X200 say that the fan is almost completely inaudible <-- same here
22:45:46 <anm_ub> unless I put the ear against it
22:45:53 <anm_ub> or manually spin it up to full speed
22:45:55 <ehird> 28cm wide, 1.6kg, very cool
22:46:03 <anm_ub> it never hits more than half of full at even full load
22:46:10 <ehird> you'd have to try hard to make it not work on your lap
22:46:38 <ehird> justifying saying "laptop" wrt X200
22:46:58 <anm_ub> ehird, sterilisation ;P
22:47:20 <ehird> multiple reviews have pointed out that it runs very cool, so
22:47:29 <anm_ub> ehird, there is the radiation too
22:47:44 <anm_ub> ehird, btw gnome kind of sucks according to powertop
22:47:48 <ehird> Yes, the WiFi radiation will kill me if I don't put on my tinfoil hat.
22:47:53 <anm_ub> lots of wakeups from various gnome processes
22:48:26 <anm_ub> such as the gnome power manager
22:48:44 <ehird> care to clarify radiation?
22:48:55 <anm_ub> ehird, well, wifi mostly
22:49:03 <ehird> lol, you believe that crap?
22:49:26 <ehird> i assume you don't have a mobile phone either
22:49:33 <anm_ub> ehird, I prefer to err on the safe side
22:49:50 <ehird> anm_ub: I assume you believe in god then? Pascal's Wager.
22:50:08 <ehird> The fact is that there is NO scientific base for WiFi being any more dangerous than radiation we're bombarded with every day from various sources.
22:50:15 <ehird> And it is universally pedalled only by complete kooks.
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22:52:10 <ehird> So if you avoid "WiFi radiation", you're just an idiot.
22:54:01 <ehird> I live in the country, where there is no radiation whatsoever!
22:55:28 <ehird> http://www.quantzgame.com/ ;; game written in Gambit Scheme
22:55:51 <anm_ub> maybe portable Faraday cages around sensitive areas? Wait you could make something like a mesh out of tinfoil right?
22:56:15 <ehird> anm_ub: you're surely joking.
22:56:35 <anm_ub> should have been completely clear
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22:59:26 <ehird> anm_ub: anyway you don't seriously believe that crap do you
23:02:24 <anm_ub> ehird, I do know that computers send out more or less radiation. And even if it is no more than the background level it is still in *addition* to the already existing background level. If it is significant or not I have no idea about.
23:02:39 <anm_ub> "probably not" is what I think
23:02:41 <ehird> you make baby jesus cry.
23:02:49 <anm_ub> but I do prefer to err on the safe side
23:02:54 <ehird> did you know, by the way, that sound makes your brain melt?
23:02:57 <ehird> it adds sound to the background sound
23:02:59 <ehird> and some sounds are dangerous
23:03:07 <ehird> we must be careful
23:03:09 <ehird> and not play any music
23:03:23 <ehird> it might not make your brain melt, might just make you deaf
23:03:26 <ehird> i mean some sounds do that right
23:03:34 <GregorR> I was expecting www.qwantzgame.com to be some awesome Dinosaur-Comics-related game.
23:03:36 <ehird> and it is IN ADDITION to the already existing background level
23:03:42 <ehird> we must never listen to music
23:03:51 <ehird> GregorR: Nooo, it's just squatted?
23:04:20 <ehird> not even registered
23:04:25 <ehird> GregorR: so, uh, wut?
23:04:49 <anm_ub> ehird, well that is a complex matter, like it is for radiation. One aspect to consider is if interference cause the result to amplify or if they take each other out. For example
23:04:49 <GregorR> Yeah, but quantz was so close it made me read "qwantz" and type that instead, then realize my mistake but go "gee, maybe there's a qwantz game"
23:05:10 <ehird> GregorR: oh that ha
23:05:34 <ehird> anm_ub: your jokes cannot dispel the fact that avoiding radiation because some radiation is harmful is exactly as stupid as avoiding sound because some sound is harmful
23:05:38 <ehird> indeed, more silly
23:05:48 <ehird> while research has not been done on the subject "do regular amounts of sound make you deaf?",
23:05:53 <ehird> research HAS been done on wifi and similar
23:05:57 <ehird> and the conclusion: bunk
23:06:28 <anm_ub> ehird, yet there are those over-sensitive to electricity.
23:06:41 <ehird> you believe those loonies?
23:06:44 <ehird> you are fucking insane
23:06:50 <ehird> they're DELUSIONAL
23:06:54 <anm_ub> ehird, I know someone who is
23:06:59 <ehird> AHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
23:07:55 <anm_ub> ehird, iirc there is no conclusive proof either way for that
23:08:13 <ehird> there's no conclusive proof for gravity, or russell's teapot not existing
23:10:00 <ehird> and you make fun of religion.
23:10:46 <anm_ub> she took part in a scientific study of it a few years ago. where they carried in a box that either contained a powered on electric device (a resistor connected to a 12 V setup iirc, don't remember details), or an equal weight in it. And she managed to detect it 100% of the time iirc.
23:10:59 <anm_ub> she was told after the study was complete
23:12:02 <ehird> whatever you say anm_ub.
23:15:07 <anm_ub> ehird, well. I also remember that study showed that some of the people who claimed this sort of hypersensitivity was able to detect it a statistical significant percentage of the time. However quite a lot more claimed to have the issue than those who were able to "prove" they had it. So I guess there could be those who are delusional, and those who actually are hypersensitive
23:15:26 <ehird> you're assuming the study was scientifically valid
23:15:42 <ehird> you're assuming its results can be attributed to "electricity sensitivity" instead of a side-channel effect
23:16:10 <anm_ub> ehird, they did lots of attempts to avoid that, by not having the person bringing in the box know what was in it and so on
23:16:20 <anm_ub> and the "equal weight" thingy
23:16:25 <ehird> your source for this study is the delusional person
23:16:28 <ehird> somehow i don't trust them.
23:16:57 <anm_ub> ehird, nop, I read the paper it was published in.
23:17:07 <ehird> yes, but all the facts beyond that
23:17:19 <anm_ub> I don't have it around any more but let me try to remember the name of it
23:18:25 <ehird> Googling it seems that electrical sensitivity may have some scientific basis
23:18:33 <ehird> WiFi radiation as harmful has been debunked a million times.
23:18:50 <ehird> There is plenty much more powerful radiation around us that does nothing, and nobody has ever gotten ill from WiFi.
23:19:02 <anm_ub> however, I would still not use a laptop on my lap, even if idle temp is low, it can get loaded easily
23:19:27 <anm_ub> ehird, and don't remember the name of the journal it was published in, sorry
23:19:40 <ehird> wouldn't it be terrible if suddenly my lap got ridiculously hot without me noticing!
23:20:10 <anm_ub> ehird, well it is your sperms :P
23:20:26 <ehird> i assume you have never had a warm bath either
23:20:51 * anm_ub suddenly wants to sing that Monty Python(?) "every sperm is sacred..."
23:21:08 <anm_ub> ehird, I don't have a bathtub :/, only a shower
23:21:24 <ehird> my dad has a separate shower thing
23:21:31 <ehird> much cooler than a shower+bath i think
23:21:46 <anm_ub> ehird, there is a outdoors public bath thingy. tends to be very cold
23:21:53 <anm_ub> you know, swimming thing
23:22:05 <ehird> <finns> You mean the sauna?
23:22:14 <ehird> <finns> Yeah, I wish they were hotter.
23:22:44 <ehird> ahhhh I love acme(1)
23:22:55 <ehird> it uses pointer warping so well
23:23:19 <anm_ub> I wonder why virtualbox uses a different hinting style than everything else
23:23:34 <ehird> doesn't do subpixel
23:23:46 <ehird> so you get grayscale pixels
23:23:49 <anm_ub> ehird, hm I turned off subpixel, because I couldn't stand it
23:23:59 <ehird> with that high dpi?
23:24:00 <anm_ub> ehird, I use "greyscale best shape"
23:24:16 <ehird> wifi radiation, almost-invisible subpixel...
23:24:20 <ehird> you sure are crazy
23:24:43 <anm_ub> ehird, well, it wasn't too bad in itself. but it wasn't as crisp as I like it
23:24:56 <ehird> i assume you don't read bokos
23:25:01 <ehird> they don't have crisp text either
23:25:19 <anm_ub> it was a bit blurry anyway
23:25:22 <ehird> they have no hinting at all
23:25:30 <anm_ub> ehird, indeed. but they have sharp edges
23:25:34 <ehird> not at >120dpi, no
23:25:50 <anm_ub> ehird, um, not new ones indeed
23:26:04 <ehird> i was talking about displays and colour bleed
23:26:11 <anm_ub> ehird, I was talking about books
23:26:19 <ehird> at ~175dpi, it's impossible to distinguish two pixels without a magnifying glass
23:26:35 <ehird> so at ~120dpi, it's almost certainly very very hard to distinguish two subpixels unless you have really good eyes
23:26:43 <ehird> really really REALLY really really good eyes
23:27:07 <anm_ub> ehird, I didn't see the subpixels. but I did see that it was blurrier
23:27:28 <ehird> anm_ub: again, at such a high dpi it will look almost identical to books
23:27:30 <pikhq> There's been a local privelege escalation exploit in Linux since Linux 2.4.4.
23:27:37 <ehird> pikhq: old, vmsplice
23:27:44 <pikhq> ehird: To present.
23:27:51 <anm_ub> nah, vmsplice was different
23:27:53 <ehird> pikhq: what is it?
23:27:56 <pikhq> http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html
23:28:18 <ehird> only patched today
23:28:23 <pikhq> Mapping to NULL and jumping to it.
23:28:27 <ehird> ...I wonder if I have any ssh accounts lying around...
23:28:30 <pikhq> It executes in kernel space.
23:28:48 <ehird> I SHALL BRING INFINITE HAVOC
23:29:19 <anm_ub> so temp workaround is use ipv4 only=
23:29:34 <pikhq> It effects more protocols than IP6.
23:29:43 <anm_ub> PF_INET6 (with IPPROTO_SCTP) <-- I don't yet use SCTP either, planned but not yet
23:31:28 <pikhq> Amusingly, the mmap_min_addr (which was the previous source of a security flaw) feature can be used to prevent this.
23:32:20 <anm_ub> $ sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr
23:32:20 <anm_ub> vm.mmap_min_addr = 65536
23:33:02 <ehird> You know, every Linux shell account hoster is going to die a horrible death.
23:33:15 <pikhq> Erm. Older than 2.6.30.
23:33:40 <pikhq> Sweet, Gentoo is by default secure against it.
23:33:44 <anm_ub> pikhq, but ubuntu backported it
23:33:50 <pikhq> vm.mmap_min_addr = 4096
23:34:00 <pikhq> NO FIRST PAGE FOR YOU.
23:34:06 <anm_ub> pikhq, ubuntu still backported the mmap bit I think
23:34:46 <ehird> FUN FACT: NULL IS A LIE
23:36:10 <oklofok> i can never finish solitaire these days, i get tired of it's boringness halfway through
23:36:32 <oklofok> so now i currently don't have any interest in games
23:36:51 <ehird> oklofok: minesweeper
23:36:55 <oklofok> presently at the moment, that is
23:37:09 <oklofok> no i can't play minesweeper either
23:37:48 <anm_ub> ehird, not against a a good chess program set at hardest level
23:37:48 <oklofok> definitely not, i can't focus on it long enough to win against anyone
23:38:39 <ehird> just do what a chess program does
23:38:42 <ehird> you're allowed paper right?
23:38:52 <ehird> you are in my rules.
23:38:54 <oklofok> ehird: don't you suck at chess though?
23:39:05 <ehird> if i'm playing humanly
23:39:14 <ehird> but i could, if i wanted, play like a chess algo
23:39:45 <ehird> as in, 1000x worse than chess progs
23:39:55 <oklofok> anything resembling a decent player would be impossible to do that way
23:40:05 <ehird> most people aren't decent
23:40:44 <ehird> oklofok: anyway, with paper i could do like 100x worse
23:40:56 <ehird> but the fact is that the actual playing isn't algorithmically hard
23:40:59 <ehird> as opposed to, say, Go
23:41:06 <ehird> where you can't just memorise an algo
23:41:08 <oklofok> yes, so slow that that's a ridiculous thing to even hypothesize
23:41:17 <ehird> it's the purity i'm on about
23:41:21 <ehird> you like purity don't you?
23:41:30 <ehird> if there's a chess algorithm that kicks serious ass, it's not worth playing
23:41:40 <ehird> unless you just want to masturbate your mind
23:41:51 <ehird> with go/arimaa, you're actually actively doing something only you can currently do
23:42:00 <ehird> as opposed to a human being able to consider 1000x more than you and come out on top
23:42:05 <ehird> so it's a purer game, intellectually
23:42:07 <ehird> and therefore more worth playing
23:44:37 <oklofok> so anyway i was thinking i'd start my uni year by taking a random course on the first exam day, and fiving it, but that's no longer possible :|
23:45:02 <oklofok> because i'm switching to math, and those bastards have tons of mandatory homework on every course
23:45:12 <ehird> oklofok: i just invented the best game ever
23:45:29 <ehird> but you are! it's mathematically pure and also useless
23:45:42 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dots_and_Boxes, with continuous space instead of discrete dot-space, and infinite-dimensional.
23:45:59 <ehird> props to anyone who can make that into something even vaguely mathematically formulated
23:46:03 <oklofok> how about a general topological space
23:46:22 <ehird> sounds confusing and fun
23:47:04 <ehird> oklofok: unfortunately i think dots and boxes is inherently easy for an ai
23:48:09 <ehird> oklofok: well i mean the perfect strategy is trivial
23:48:18 <ehird> i don't think making space continuous changes it
23:48:23 <ehird> and infinite-dimensional is prolly generalisable
23:48:26 <oklofok> what's the perfect strategy?
23:48:43 <anm_ub> ehird, "the winner ends when no more lines can be placed" + infinite gird?
23:48:51 <ehird> anm_ub: did i say infinite grid
23:49:00 <ehird> i said infinite dimensional
23:49:04 <ehird> like 2D, 3D, infinityD
23:49:09 <ehird> and continuous space
23:49:13 <ehird> = (real,real) not (int,int)
23:49:21 <anm_ub> effect is the same then right
23:49:38 <anm_ub> you can place it at any place if it is (real,real)?
23:50:22 <oklofok> yes, every game lasts for an uncountable amount of turns
23:50:34 <oklofok> basically you determine your strategy, and the limit is taken,
23:50:46 <oklofok> and then you calculate the areas
23:51:26 <oklofok> also, ehird, no, it doesn't say anything about a perfect strategy
23:51:38 <ehird> oklofok: i like how you extrapolated what i said :D
23:51:55 <ehird> only squares are ok though
23:51:58 <ehird> but you can do fractals!
23:52:01 <ehird> boxes in boxes in boxes
23:52:10 <ehird> of course not "squares"
23:52:19 <ehird> infinityD hypercubes
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23:57:54 <anm_ub> ehird, so the games end when you can't place anything else
23:57:58 <anm_ub> seems it will never end then
23:58:10 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: yes, every game lasts for an uncountable amount of turns
23:58:11 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: basically you determine your strategy, and the limit is taken,
23:58:11 <ehird> [23:50] oklofok: and then you calculate the areas
23:59:22 <ehird> oklofok: so is a move a mathematical expression or something
00:00:34 <oklofok> well i don't know, but i think you need a metric space, just a topological space isn't enough
00:02:10 <oklofok> also i need to read about adders now
00:02:46 <ehird> oklofok: the snakes?
00:03:52 <oklofok> no about you know mister ripple-carry and mister carry-look-ahead, and then three others i did *not* learn about in preschool
00:04:46 <ehird> YEAH THAT'S WHY EIGHT PLUS B B
00:05:56 <anm_ub> I think they used some other cute thingy
00:06:25 <HackEgo> * a person who adds numbers \ * small terrestrial viper common in northern Eurasia \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
00:06:37 <ehird> oklofok: i think he's asking you what an adder snake is.
00:06:52 <oklofok> anm_ub: i was talking about these things that take bits in, and sum them.
00:06:57 <anm_ub> ehird, no I'm saying they weren't used for teaching math in school
00:07:03 <anm_ub> maybe I misunderstood oklofok
00:07:48 <oklofok> mostly about ways to make the carry bottleneck shorter
00:08:00 <oerjan> small terrestrial viper which likes to use log tables for sex
00:08:47 <ehird> anm_ub: Whoooooooosh.
00:09:02 <oklofok> anm_ub: no this is not about algorithms, this is about wires.
00:09:09 * oerjan assumes anm_ub hasn't heard the original joke. which seems safe since he doesn't know about adders.
00:09:11 <anm_ub> oh darn, I thought I was making the math joke here
00:09:39 <anm_ub> oerjan, I haven't heard the original joke no
00:09:52 <ehird> yeah, anm_ub has never heard of these weird joke creatures, "vipers"
00:10:10 <ehird> i can't believe he doesn't :D
00:10:39 <anm_ub> ehird, vipers I know of. It's the popular name for F-16 Fight Falcon. The pilots often call it the viper. Oh and it's a type of snake too.
00:10:49 <ehird> but you don't know what an adder is?
00:11:00 <ehird> i knew what an adder was when i was 3 ffs
00:11:21 <anm_ub> oh it's a huggorm says wikipedia
00:11:27 <anm_ub> of course I know what a huggorm is
00:11:36 <anm_ub> quite a different name in Swedish
00:11:44 <anm_ub> oerjan, translate for me
00:11:56 <ehird> Hug G ORM → Hug Gangsta Object Relational Mapper
00:12:05 <ehird> Those gangsta object-relational mappers just need some love.
00:12:07 <anm_ub> ehird, more like "bite-snake"
00:12:38 <anm_ub> oerjan, don't you call them slang or something
00:12:38 <oerjan> hugg also means "chop" with an axe
00:12:42 <anm_ub> which is Swedish for tube
00:13:04 <oerjan> although it's still huggorm in norwegian
00:13:42 <anm_ub> hugg == bite (fast, kind of head quickly moving forward and biting)
00:13:55 <anm_ub> the variant "hugg" does imply a certain suddenness
00:13:58 <anm_ub> if you see what I mean
00:16:06 <oerjan> huggorm is the only poisonous snake in norway
00:17:45 <oklofok> i don't know what an adder is, except that it's some kinda snake.
00:17:59 <oklofok> i probably don't know what that snake is in finnish either, except that it's some kinda snake
00:18:02 <anm_ub> oklofok, adder == huggorm
00:18:03 <oerjan> ah wp says it's the world's most widespread snake species
00:18:28 <oklofok> huggorm, on the other hand, i've never even heard about
00:18:55 <anm_ub> oklofok, well, it is same as adder
00:19:49 <oerjan> "In Finland as "kyykäärme" or simply "kyy.""
00:19:56 <ehird> oklofok: say "floating floaters that float" in finnish
00:21:27 <oklofok> oh right viper was kyy, i actually have slightly more information about that than any other snake in the world
00:21:37 <oklofok> mainly that it's the only venomous snake in finland
00:21:58 <oklofok> ehird: kelluvat kellujat jotka kelluvat
00:22:30 <ehird> oklofok: does finnish have an analogue of buffalo buffalo etc?
00:22:36 <ehird> and if so, can it be made into one word?
00:22:39 <anm_ub> adder is a subspecies of viper
00:22:58 <oklofok> anm_ub: i can't see the difference between those two words, they just mean snake to me
00:23:05 <oerjan> bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler
00:23:10 <anm_ub> oklofok, adder is a type of viper
00:23:21 <anm_ub> and viper is a type of snake
00:23:32 <oklofok> anm_ub: yes, snake is a type snake, which is a type of snake.
00:24:15 <oklofok> i'm currently so uninterested in biology, that i can't learn that even temporarily.
00:24:25 <oerjan> (alas bøfle isn't really a verb, but it could have been)
00:24:45 <ehird> biology is like YOUR MOM
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00:26:42 <ehird> wow! acme can edit infinitely large files
00:26:53 <oklofok> oerjan: that would be more interesting with semantics, you know
00:27:06 <oklofok> i mean semantics for the part that has it
00:27:34 <ehird> squee i can't wait for my laptoppy.
00:27:45 <ehird> why did i ever get a desktop.
00:29:50 <ehird> oklofok: i still have one!
00:30:06 <oerjan> oklofok: bøfler = buffalos
00:30:32 <oerjan> but it also looks like it could be a verb, present tense
00:31:17 <oerjan> and if it had been, it would have worked like in english
00:33:28 <ehird> argh acme is just too damn elegant
00:33:48 <oerjan> elegant eloquent elephant
00:34:00 <ehird> it's not an elephant!
00:34:03 <oklofok> weird how you'd pluralize it with an s even though you're referencing something that depends on it not pluralizing like that
00:34:47 <oerjan> well that was to point out that the norwegian word is only plural
00:36:59 <oklofok> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
00:37:36 <oerjan> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH
00:37:48 <oklofok> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;D
00:38:33 <oerjan> i knew it! finns are really aliens with multiple eyes on stalks!
00:39:32 <oklofok> each with their own tiny blinking brain, synchronizing is a bitch.
00:40:20 <oerjan> but it makes you natural experts on concurrent programming
00:40:20 <ehird> i wouldn't be surprised to discover that oklofok is an AI
00:42:07 <oklofok> i wish there was a ranking of universities by how hard the courses are.
00:42:36 <ehird> pretty sure ivy league + MIT would constitute a good portion of the top
00:42:59 <ehird> well + like oxford and cambridge and shit
00:45:35 <oerjan> there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit
00:45:58 <ehird> oklofok: because the ivy league is the canonical "really good school list"
00:46:04 <oerjan> somewhere close to pyongyang, perhaps
00:46:07 <ehird> and MIT is fairly unanimously considered uber hard
00:46:21 <ehird> oxford and cambridge are also very well renowned /shrug
00:46:50 <oklofok> ehird: i just don't see why really good would imply hard. well, actually i guess i just don't think hard implies good.
00:47:01 <oklofok> which is pretty much what oerjan said, i guess.
00:47:20 <ehird> they don't rank it based on how many people pass, obviously
00:50:10 <ehird> [00:45] oerjan: there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit
00:50:12 <ehird> you referred to that line
00:53:29 <oklofok> 1. such a university would be crappy 2. i'm not saying being hard to pass makes a university bad, i'm just saying i don't see why hard should imply good
00:54:29 <ehird> I was thinking you meant "i don't see why good implies hard"
00:54:35 <ehird> whereas I expect there's a pretty good correlation in that direction
00:55:31 <oklofok> well, more like good -> hard enough, which in a university is pretty damn hard in my opinion
00:55:57 <ehird> oklofok: otoh, I doubt that there are many bad unis with really hard courses
00:56:13 <ehird> because when starting a uni with broken thinking, I'd say the tendency is to make it too easy for the students
00:56:34 <ehird> I don't think there are many if any crazy bastards running around running a terrible university where you have to solve 6 impossible things before breakfast
00:57:48 <oklofok> someone mentioned this math lecturer who gave unsolved problems as homework without a warning
00:58:00 <oklofok> i mean, among the other exercises
00:58:11 <ehird> that's not hard, though
00:58:16 <ehird> impossible != hard
00:58:27 <ehird> you're not expected to complete it
00:58:30 <ehird> therefore it's infinitely easy
00:58:39 <oklofok> well true, that wasn't a counter-example, just a side-note
00:59:34 <oklofok> we actually got a few unsolvable problems as homework too, on an analysis course (with a warning), that was kinda annoying, since at that point i couldn't stand not getting all of them done :\
01:00:06 <oklofok> but i fought the urge to apply my solid inductions on it.
01:00:36 <ehird> oklofok: but you coulda solved them!
01:00:53 <ehird> also unsolvable or just unsolved
01:02:52 <oklofok> one was just a tiny modification of the exercise before it
01:03:33 <oklofok> unsolvable problems aren't that rare, and usually don't have a warning, by which i mean human errors
01:04:51 <pikhq> Obviously, homework should have Knuth ratings.
01:06:09 <ehird> Knuth: 18943758973489583945/3458934759834735782798378589475867325789235
01:08:29 <oklofok> that's one fucked up way to say trivial.
01:10:10 <ehird> oklofok: how is it trivial
01:10:17 <ehird> it's like 7 out of 2
01:12:19 <oklofok> i must be misunderstanding something here
01:18:53 <oklofok> how is a knuth rating of about 5.48e-24 not trivial
01:19:10 <oklofok> it's rather close to 0, the easiest possible, unless i remember the scale wrong
01:20:21 <ehird> i don't even know what knuth ratings are
01:20:34 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=knuth+rating&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 nuttin'
01:21:27 <oklofok> oh? then i guess i have no idea what you meant by that rational number
01:24:05 <ehird> like an n/10 rating
01:24:11 <ehird> except knuth is like sooo subtle
01:27:07 <oklofok> but it's such a ridiculously small number what scale could it possibly not be trivial on
01:29:13 <ehird> oklofok: knuth's scale is superexponential.
01:29:30 <oklofok> argggh what's that term you use for when something is really bad in computer science :P
01:29:35 <oklofok> i'm sure you know what i mean!
01:29:42 <ehird> oklofok: "really bad"
01:30:52 <oklofok> hard to say, i just know there's like a canonical term for something being really bad.
01:31:03 <oerjan> superexponential is pretty close ;D
01:31:45 <oerjan> intractable? uncomputable?
01:31:45 <oklofok> it's like fatally bad, superbad
01:32:09 <oklofok> doesn't imply anything computational by itself
01:32:51 <oerjan> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
01:33:37 <oklofok> yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad.
01:33:47 <oklofok> but, it's still not what i'm looking for!
01:33:57 <ehird> [01:33] oklofok: yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad.
01:35:14 <oklofok> anyway it's not just used in cs, maybe more in math, when describing like a very weird subcase
01:35:56 <oklofok> would be much easier if i had any idea what the term was
01:36:16 <ehird> oklofok: almost surely? :P
01:41:58 * oerjan doesn't connect that with "really bad" :/
01:42:40 <ehird> oerjan: this asteroid will almost surely destroy the earth
01:42:52 <ehird> it is perfectly shaped to painfully anally rape us for minutes beforehand
01:44:56 <oklofok> see you in about 3 months.
01:46:59 <ehird> oklofok: is it the OED?
01:47:01 <ehird> you should use the OED
01:47:05 <ehird> oklofok: also try WP, it probably has an article on it
01:47:13 <ehird> and you can filter out everything not in a mathematics or CS category
01:47:53 <oklofok> much less cs or math than those
01:50:50 <ehird> oklofok is just making this up to waste our time :P
01:51:17 <oklofok> i'm starting to think that myself
01:53:12 <oerjan> no, that is not a word.
01:53:19 <oerjan> not in english, at any rate.
01:57:39 <oklofok> the only word i can come up with is "paradoxical", not that close in meaning, so may be close in sound.
01:57:52 <oklofok> hard to say, my brain is pretty fucked up :<
02:00:40 <oerjan> darn it's in the back of my head
02:01:15 <ehird> oklofok: pathological
02:01:59 <ehird> oklofok: some definition of "really bad"
02:02:25 <oklofok> well it's used pretty much synonymously, anyway, i did remember it had to do with death
02:02:29 <oklofok> prolly should've said that
02:03:17 <oklofok> but i kinda assumed it'd be on the page with lethal if it was close enough to be useful
02:03:43 <oerjan> lethargic lemurs leaping leftwards
02:05:02 <oerjan> actually that's sifakas, except the lethargic part
02:05:28 <ehird> oklofok: i think i dismissed pathological as not being... mathy enough
02:06:35 <oerjan> i can assure you that "pathological case" is a perfectly cromulent mathematical term ;D
02:06:55 <ehird> oerjan: i have a question
02:06:57 <ehird> do you pun as much IRL
02:10:01 <ehird> props to anyone who gets the reference
02:10:21 <oklofok> yeah it's not very math, more of a hacker term, methinks.
02:10:37 <oklofok> i just didn't really know what i was looking for
02:11:55 <oklofok> well, not that i've discussed or read that much math in english.
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04:09:00 <Sgeo> [about Minimal] jercos> Sgeo: add to the "joke languages list" and observe the hilarity?
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04:40:01 <pikhq> `calc 1 liter in hogsheads
04:40:03 <HackEgo> 1 liter = 0.00419320718 hogsheads
04:40:23 <pikhq> A hogshead is an *oddly* small unit.
04:40:34 <pikhq> Especially for a unit that claims to be the size of the head of a hog.
04:41:08 <pikhq> `calc 30 miles per gallon in rods per hogshead
04:41:10 <HackEgo> 30 miles per gallon = 604 800 rods per hogshead
04:41:27 <oerjan> `calc 1 hogshead in liters
04:41:29 <HackEgo> 1 hogshead = 238.480942 liters
04:42:08 <pikhq> Oddly large, then.
04:42:45 <HackEgo> 1 hogshead = 63 US gallons
04:44:41 <Warrigal_> If Hamburger Helper is cooking, this is still only "cooking".
04:45:24 <Warrigal_> They have to warm up, and then after that, they have to cool down.
04:45:48 <Warrigal_> The temperature of this water is rising quadratically.
04:47:08 <lament> cars will surely horrify you
04:47:16 <lament> they have to speed up, and then they have to slow down
04:47:27 <oerjan> induction stoves are technically electric... or is it magnetic
04:49:36 <pikhq> Warrigal_: ... You are struggling with that>
05:03:01 <Warrigal_> Preparation requires boiling. Bringing water to a boil is really easy. Boiling something in it is also pretty easy.
05:03:35 <Warrigal_> You just have to make sure it pretty much continues boiling and doesn't boil over or boil too quickly.
05:04:12 <pikhq> ... And you're struggling with that?
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05:29:07 * Sgeo watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVVfs4zKrgk
05:45:49 <Warrigal_> I didn't say I was struggling with it.
05:46:03 <Warrigal_> It went as well as it possibly could have gone.
05:47:59 <Warrigal_> It's just that, seeing that this house has an electric stove and pondering how such a think would work, I decided that gas stoves were better.
06:20:06 <Sgeo> Surrender or pie!
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09:53:01 <Octalnet> Can anyone point me in the direction of a simplified documentation on Whirl?
09:59:03 <Deewiant> I would guess that http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Whirl and what it links to is all there is.
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10:10:12 <coppro> So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version
10:11:46 <coppro> seriously, I want to go find whoever is behind this and stab them over and over and over
10:12:27 <Deewiant> So obviously, you want somebody to ask you what it is they've done
10:15:07 <coppro> how else can I vent my frustration at the idiot who decided to put the RECOVERY CONSOLE on /USR!
10:15:29 <coppro> the recovery console is for when /USR is not working!
10:15:58 <coppro> moreover, it meant I had to run e2fsck on a mounted filesystem, and that made me NOT happy
10:17:38 <fizzie> Coincidentally, I met the recovery console for the first time yesterday, and on the iBook at least it didn't accept any sensible keyboard input; any keys I pressed were just echoed messily on top of the dialog.
10:18:56 <coppro> I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way)
10:19:05 <coppro> also :( at the recovery console not working
10:23:04 <coppro> also it's 3 AM and it was raining and I can't sleep when it rains because it drips all night and it's very very loud
10:23:48 <coppro> time for the moment of truth... see whether my decision to run e2fsck on a mounted system fixed the problem (which I suspect was a bad block)
10:25:02 <fizzie> Yes, that sort of option-select-o-tron is what I saw when booting in single-user mode.
10:25:49 <coppro> are you on Ubuntu? I thought you were referring to the Mac OS SUM, but I guess I was assuping
10:27:55 <fizzie> I have Ubuntu and OS X on the iBook, and that was in Ubuntu. (I had left the laptop do a distribution upgrade to 9.04 overnight, it had competely hung up somewhere during the night, and after a reboot Gnome had brokened itself. Got it fixed with the "dpkg --configure -a", which I guess is what I could have done from the boot-up dialog too, had it worked right.)
10:29:07 <coppro> I'm also pretty confident bad blocks were causing my random crashes during my development, so with any luck those should be gone too
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11:15:17 <louzer> How can I represent 'nil' in combinatory logic?
11:15:44 <louzer> and the last thing in the last cons cell is nil
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11:43:55 <coppro> quick... I don't feel like thinking... anyone know a terminating binary value that is nonterminating in decimal?
11:44:02 <coppro> or is that not possible?
11:48:28 <Deewiant> I can't think of one and I wonder if it's impossible because 2 divides 10
11:49:32 <Deewiant> At least there's a lot of "other than 2 or 5" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_decimal
11:49:42 <coppro> yes, that's what I'm thinking of
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12:04:17 <fizzie> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DecimalExpansion.html and the part immediately after the table.
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12:24:51 <lament> 2^(-x) = (10/5)^(-x) = 10^(-x)/5^(-x) = 10^(-x)*5^x = terminating
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13:12:11 <oerjan> louzer: such a list element is essentially _either_ nil or a cons cell, so you need a way to distinguish them
13:13:57 <oerjan> in general you can represent that as nil = \nilcase conscase -> nilcase, cons x y = \nilcase conscase -> conscase x y
13:16:01 <oerjan> this method extends to general "algebraic" data types
13:16:39 <oerjan> (haskell lambda notation there)
13:18:17 <louzer> i read on unlambda page that i can use a union as the last element of a list
13:18:39 <oerjan> there might be a trick...
13:19:59 <oerjan> hm no i read that as using a union for all conses of a list
13:20:26 <oerjan> also that's essentially what i suggested
13:22:09 <oerjan> except i rolled the last union case and the pair case together
13:22:28 <oerjan> the v option doesn't work for pure combinatory logic i think
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14:54:29 <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot
14:54:46 <AnMaster> you need to use the last backported wlan drivers
14:55:05 <AnMaster> otherwise you seem to get kernel OOPS at shutdown
14:55:45 <AnMaster> and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time
14:57:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you had kernel oops on shutdown too with your intel wireless or?
14:58:05 <ais523> I'm pretty certain they're different bugs, now
14:58:10 <AnMaster> hm, seems it only affect some models
14:58:26 <AnMaster> 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection
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15:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you seen that right? I forgot if you were in here yesterday or not
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15:39:27 <GregorR-L> Bahahaha, I got invited to a group "I bet I can find 1000000 people who use binary" on Facebook, and what's really sad is that it's nowhere near the claimed b1000000 (64) people.
15:40:25 <oklopol> i've never heard of anyone who uses binary
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17:19:44 <AnMaster> patched kernel against the issue.
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17:45:09 <ehird> 02:10:12 <coppro> So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version
17:45:13 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> OH GOD!
17:45:22 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> Quick, developers! Here's a million bux!
17:45:22 <ais523> what was coppro's complaint, btw?
17:45:27 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> GET THIS FIXED BY TOMORROW
17:45:33 <ehird> ais523: they moved the recovery console to /usr
17:45:43 <ehird> this is apparently an issue because he breaks /usr aaaaaaaaall the time or something
17:45:54 <ais523> coppro: use /usr/local instead, that's what it's for
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17:46:03 <ais523> or just put your own copy in /bin, it's not as if Ubuntu will care
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17:46:08 <ehird> it's basically impossible to boot into a livecd if /usr dies, right?
17:46:13 <ehird> physically pick it up
17:46:38 <ehird> 02:18:56 <coppro> I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way)
17:46:45 <GregorR-L> Whoops, meant to do that in my console!
17:48:58 <ehird> 06:54:29 <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot
17:49:06 <ehird> 06:55:45 <AnMaster> and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time
17:49:07 <ehird> 06:55:53 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can turn it off
17:49:29 <ehird> 07:07:12 * AnMaster worries about http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html
17:49:29 <ehird> nobody cares about your machine
17:51:16 <ehird> "For today's computer science students, learning C is like taking an elective class in Latin."
17:52:36 <oklopol> well okay i'm not sure even i can agree with "elective"
17:52:48 <pikhq> ehird: Agreed, but only because Latin is still very useful.
17:53:59 <GregorR-L> A computer scientist NOT taking a class in C is like a linguistics student not taking a class in Latin.
17:54:43 <oklopol> GregorR-L: yes, except C is not only something any self-respecting cs dude knows, it's also actually used a lot; latin is only the first one
17:55:09 <ehird> well C isn't actually very related to theoretical CS
17:55:36 <ehird> so a CS course could be perfectly good without C, it'd just be real-world useless
17:55:38 <oklopol> true... i guess that's simply a completely irrelevant comparison :P
17:56:16 <oklopol> latin being theoretically useful, but not practically, C being the other way around
17:56:40 <oklopol> GregorR-L: mine and irrelevant or ehird's and real-world useless?
17:56:50 <ehird> oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz"
17:57:30 <oklopol> well right, ehird would be real-world useless if he was blind
17:57:41 <oklopol> i'm sure i haven't used the see-joke enough yet
17:57:43 <ehird> so my only use is seeing things?
17:58:16 <oklopol> no, but going blind, you would be rendered completely useless
17:58:19 <fizzie> I think you can get at least the Bachelor's degree thing for CS at our university without any C, since the two basic-imperative-programming courses are Java nowadays.
17:58:20 <oklopol> if only for a finite amount of time
17:58:45 <fizzie> Though it's not all lost: you won't get the degree without learning about finite state machines and Turing machines.
17:58:46 <ehird> finnish universities sound boring
17:58:51 <ehird> like they sound very much like every other uni
17:58:52 <pikhq> My university starts you on C++.
17:59:01 <ehird> pikhq: make that sentence false
17:59:04 <pikhq> And assumes you're learning other languages.
17:59:08 <ehird> best way to do that is to make it not your university
17:59:53 <fizzie> We used to have a set of three "basic programming" courses (T1, T2, T3) that had the languages Scheme, C, C++/Java in that order.
18:00:15 <ehird> fizzie: great to okay to bad!
18:00:27 <pikhq> ehird: The US has 3 choices: C++, Java, and a few schools doing Python.
18:00:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: ...to make you hate programming?
18:00:51 <GregorR-L> ehird: To make you reaaaaally understand what the f*** is going on.
18:00:51 <ehird> pikhq: Indeed. Scheme was a choice until, iirc last year; MIT switched to Python.
18:00:52 <pikhq> Of the choices, Python is the sanest. However, it is harder to get to the schools that do Python.
18:00:59 <fizzie> Actually the best C course here (or so I hear) is the "automation and systems technology" department one. You know, those guys who are building our future robotic overlords.
18:00:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: C++... doesn't do that.
18:01:07 <oklopol> we had java first, then someone got python on the introductory course, then someone got java back
18:01:22 <ehird> sad that they killed 6.001
18:01:27 <oklopol> there's a few dudes who want eiffel, although minority
18:01:32 <ehird> sussman shoulda done it till he kicked the bucket
18:01:35 <ehird> oklopol: eiffel is fun and obscure
18:01:52 <fizzie> Our university does Python for the introductory programming course for non-CS students.
18:02:03 <oklopol> from what i hear, it's much cooler than java or c++, but i've only heard features, not so much seen what it's actually like
18:02:52 <ehird> oklopol: it's a type-safe OO language with things basically like closures, a wacky inheritance mechanism to make it safer, and machine-enforced contracts on the input/outputs of functions
18:03:05 <fizzie> And the automation people have this awesome ball-shaped robot; actually it looks a bit like the xkcd thing, except it's not based on an Eee PC: http://automation.tkk.fi/Rollo
18:03:33 <ehird> fizzie: sweet; I want to make the xkcd robot sometime
18:03:34 <Deewiant> D's contracts are basically ripped from Eiffel
18:03:58 <ehird> fizzie: how does rollo handle the whole "camera is all blurry 'cuz it be done spinnin' bout" thing
18:04:16 <fizzie> I don't know, I'm not a robot-builder.
18:04:26 <ehird> in the xkcd one it stays on the top
18:04:30 <ehird> outside of the ball
18:04:32 <fizzie> I see it's been patented, heh.
18:08:04 -!- ehird has set topic: Hoist by eir own petard | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:18:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> HD activity too <-- pattern less annoying for that
18:18:33 <ehird> I'll disable it anyway since I hate blinking things that I didn't cause
18:21:24 <ehird> with a fiery passion.
18:22:42 * ehird finds the exact date where tuomov changed ion3's license
18:22:50 <ehird> now to find the closest version before that
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18:22:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz" <-- tell me, what language is the ruby implementation coded in?
18:23:03 <ehird> AnMaster: English is implemented in Latin!
18:23:29 <ehird> [[As a further note, I consider the restrictions on the name use
18:23:30 <ehird> retroactive: this is also an issue of trademark law, and as the
18:23:30 <ehird> author, I am the (unregistered) trademark holder for Ion, Ion3,
18:23:30 <ehird> etc. The new license and copyright law merely act as additional
18:23:30 <ehird> enforcement devices.]]
18:23:33 <Octalnet> Eh. I know this isn't the place to ask this, but the good channels are dead.
18:23:44 <ehird> Good thing I'm not going to call it ion-anything.
18:23:47 <ehird> Oh, right, hi, Octalnet
18:23:50 <ehird> We're being offtopic.
18:23:55 <ehird> Glad you could join us.
18:24:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well. there are some differences, but I assume you are aware of them and just try to be funny
18:24:05 <pikhq> Octalnet: Verily, I inquire.
18:24:30 <Octalnet> Is there a way to go about custom syntax highlighting in SciTE?
18:24:51 <ehird> esolangs.el highlights bf.
18:24:59 <ehird> but no, not for anything that isn't emacs.
18:25:12 <ais523> wouldn't be hard to add it to anything else
18:25:17 <pikhq> Solution: use an OS, not a text editor.
18:25:17 <ehird> but really, pointless.
18:25:27 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah; UNIX. :P
18:25:44 <oklopol> ehird: why'd it pointless?
18:25:46 <pikhq> ehird: Emacs is also an OS.
18:25:52 <ehird> oklopol: cuz it'd just be technicolour?
18:26:00 <ehird> i mean, there's no real syntax elements to speak of
18:26:15 <ehird> pikhq: Unix is better :P. Incidentally, the basic vi model could handle syntax changes very elegantly if you separated the buffer from the file.
18:26:39 <ehird> Specifically, have a program (text → text with control codes), and another program to handle moving/editing in it.
18:26:46 <ehird> Latter could be a bit of a pain, but eh.
18:26:59 <ehird> actually, even better
18:27:08 <ehird> (text → separate control codes referencing positions of text)
18:27:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, you know, it isn't a funny joke any more the 100th time you hear it
18:27:17 <ehird> (that's the Word-killing patent, heh)
18:27:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, emacs IS an OS.
18:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird, would you compare it to a lisp machine's OS=
18:27:42 <ehird> It lacks a kernel, and a decent scheduler, and any interface other than stupid text buffers, and...
18:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's a really _bad_ OS
18:28:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it is as much of an OS as squeak is I guess...
18:28:45 <pikhq> ehird: It's a very domain-specific OS, yes.
18:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so, it is a kernel less OS. Thus you should clearly like it! ;P
18:29:19 <ehird> How does Emacs do scheduling?
18:30:02 <ehird> Uhh, I'm fairly sure Emacs can update two buffers at once.
18:30:21 <pikhq> It doesn't; the whole thing's pretty event driven, IIRC.
18:30:56 <pikhq> Not very clean, but quite portable.
18:30:58 <ehird> I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest
18:31:12 <ehird> you could make a nice unix IDE with a tiling wm, a bunch of xterms and vi
18:31:28 <pikhq> That would actually be a nice IDE.
18:31:36 <ehird> well, I say "not many"; I mean I don't know of even one
18:32:30 <ehird> is xnest any good?
18:32:36 <ehird> I dunno its performance characteristics
18:33:30 <ehird> hmm, xnest seems to fail here
18:34:23 <fizzie> There's also the more modern Xephyr thing, which should be faster.
18:34:44 <ehird> don't really need speed for vi and xterm :P
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about using a virtual desktop?
18:35:40 <ehird> what if you want to look at your irc client too
18:36:20 <AnMaster> or do you mean something that can be installed and ready to use as one of those <buzzword>virtual appliances</buzzword>?
18:36:46 <AnMaster> as in, not running in a VM, but similar ready to use X setup
18:37:02 <AnMaster> preconfigured Xnest thingy could work well for that I suspect
18:37:19 <ehird> no, I just mean a tiling wm running a bunch of urxvts.
18:37:32 <ehird> like a four-liner.
18:37:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can't think of any sane way to do it without Xnest. This proves the X protocol sucks
18:38:04 <ehird> that's exactly what xnest does.
18:38:15 <ehird> creates an x display as a window
18:38:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but why would you want it without Xnest??
18:38:43 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:38:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest
18:39:15 <AnMaster> seems like you wanted a tiling vm not using xnet?
18:39:23 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:23 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:24 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:24 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tiling WM in a window.
18:39:35 <ehird> [ehird:~] % xinit twm -display :3 -- xnest :3
18:39:36 <ehird> xterm Xt error: Can't open display: :3
18:39:36 <ehird> waiting for X server to shut down
18:40:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, yep, but issue is you need a whole X server in a window (like xnest), since otherwise the X server would tell the main window manager about the new apps/windows
18:41:15 <ehird> it's just hacked up Xorg
18:41:15 <ehird> so whatever i'm doing is my stupidity
18:41:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that might *possibly* create issues. What with X on mac being kind of nested + seemless mode under the real GUI system
18:41:34 <ehird> no, that's just the qwartz-wm
18:42:00 <ehird> each window is a twm window
18:42:02 <ehird> floating on the os x desktop
18:42:13 <ehird> quartz-wm doesn't even draw aqua
18:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it won't affect non-X windows then?
18:42:16 <ehird> it looks like Tiger still
18:42:26 <ehird> AnMaster: no; Aqua isn't X11
18:42:43 <ehird> quartz-wm integrated sort of okay in Tiger but alongside leopard windows it's kinda silly
18:42:45 <ehird> even the shadow is wrong
18:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, can you run anything with a root window with the X on there
18:42:57 <ehird> it is full x11 and you can run it fullscreen
18:43:02 <AnMaster> if not, what would the window of Xnest contain?
18:43:10 <ehird> the root window = twm
18:43:24 <ehird> but yes, it can do root windows.
18:43:26 <ehird> = fullscreen mode.
18:43:37 <ehird> I made it so that it booted directly into X11/twm recently
18:43:38 <AnMaster> I was trying to debug the issue
18:43:48 <AnMaster> so that is why I asked about root window sans xnest
18:43:51 <ehird> so a lot smoother and nicer than other x backgrounds
18:44:22 <AnMaster> plus I bet someone would claim it looked nicer too ;P
18:44:33 <ehird> Yes. The pixels have more energy.
18:45:51 <AnMaster> I remember back on 2.4 kernels, slackware iirc, first time I got KDE working in it I did it from inside twm
18:46:12 <ehird> march 6 2007 is when tuomov posted his bitch about debian wrt license
18:46:15 <AnMaster> as in, while in there, kill twm, start kwin, start kdesktop, start kicker
18:46:19 <ehird> so i guess the last sane release is before that
18:46:27 <ehird> maybe i'll call it fytv
18:46:35 <ehird> Friendlytowards You Tuomo Valkonen
18:46:51 <ehird> pronounced like "fith" but with a v instead of an h. :P
18:48:44 <ehird> my fork of the last ion3 before he changed the license to the laughable abomination
18:48:47 <ehird> I don't even use ion3
18:48:50 <ehird> I just want to piss him off
18:48:56 <ehird> because he's a dick, you see.
18:49:40 <pikhq> Not to mention a retard.
18:49:44 <ehird> yes, well, it used to be just a GPL-variant
18:49:52 <ehird> and i'm finding the last one licensed like that I can
18:50:00 <ehird> and I'm going to try and update it based on changelogs to be bug-free
18:50:02 <pikhq> "I can revoke the GPL!" "... No."
18:50:08 <AnMaster> I thought you didn't want to touch the GPL...?
18:50:22 <AnMaster> at least you claimed that about my GPL code before :P
18:50:24 <ehird> pikhq: actually, his argument is that since he owns the Ion name he can change the rights to it how he likes
18:50:25 <ais523> ehird dislikes GPL3, although IIRC not to the extent of refusing to use anything based on it
18:50:35 <ehird> pikhq: he doesn't claim the license itself is retroactive
18:50:36 <ais523> he isn't so upset at GPL2, although it still isn't his ideal license
18:50:39 <ehird> on that point he is probably right
18:50:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it's LGPL, iirc
18:51:27 <pikhq> ehird: He also claimed to revoke the GPL proper, IIRC.
18:51:29 * ehird installs darcs to try and find the relevant change
18:51:43 <ehird> pikhq: it was people thinking his trademark terms were part of the LGPL license
18:51:50 <ehird> which is understandable, since the file they're in is called LICENSE
18:52:58 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, tuomov is totally irrelevant now as ion3 is waning in popularity and he uses Windows XP/cygwin now
18:53:50 <ehird> ais523: once very popular tiling window manager
18:53:55 <ehird> from the guy who invented tabbing window managers
18:54:01 <ehird> ais523: he changed the license to, well
18:54:05 <ehird> you have to see this to believe it
18:54:13 <ais523> the anti-Debian clause
18:54:18 <ehird> way more than that
18:54:26 <ais523> well, that means they have to keep it up to date, or not use it
18:54:53 <ehird> - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
18:54:53 <ehird> copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.
18:54:54 <ehird> - Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on
18:54:54 <ehird> the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days
18:54:54 <ehird> of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete
18:54:56 <ehird> - Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user
18:54:58 <ehird> explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and
18:55:00 <ehird> is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered
18:55:02 <ehird> the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder.
18:55:04 <ehird> The version string displayed by the program must describe these
18:55:06 <ehird> modifications and the "support void" status.
18:55:08 <ehird> Versions for which the above conditions are not satisfied, must be
18:55:10 <ehird> renamed so that they can not be associated with the Ion project, their
18:55:12 <ehird> executables must be given names that do not conflict with the copyright
18:55:14 <ehird> holder's version, and neither the copyright holder nor the Ion project
18:55:16 <ehird> may be referred to for support.
18:55:19 <ehird> one suggestion he made to debian was "do like you do with the kernel and name packages ion-version"
18:55:23 <ehird> (the response being "haha no fuck off")
18:56:27 <ehird> ugh, all the ion3 docs are in tex
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18:57:30 <ehird> ais523: anyway, he now uses Windows XP and cygwin, and occasionally posts retarded but hilarious anti-FOSS spasms on his "not a" blog
18:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird, why does debian do that for the kernel btw
18:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: multiple kernels at once
18:59:11 <AnMaster> oh right apt/dpkg can't handle multiple versions of a package installed side by side otherwise
18:59:29 <AnMaster> (hint: portage can, called slotted packages)
19:00:07 <AnMaster> (but treated as the same package, different version for most purposes)
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19:13:38 <ehird> Ooh, the suckless guys made a terminal.
19:13:42 <ehird> http://st.suckless.org/
19:16:20 <ais523> that page has a recursive see also link
19:16:28 <ehird> ais523: it's the manpage
19:16:55 <ehird> Huh, they're also making a web browser.
19:17:27 <ehird> — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long
19:17:35 <ehird> seems to even do downloads
19:18:02 <pikhq> What are they doing, trying to make non-sucky UNIX?
19:18:12 <ehird> pikhq: the suckless guys are all plan 9 weenies
19:18:45 <pikhq> A commendable, though not-very-revolutionary goal.
19:19:01 <ehird> Their stuff is nice, though
19:19:31 <ehird> also a filesystem-based irc client
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19:22:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long <-- excluding webkit itself I assume
19:22:54 <ehird> also excluding the linux kernel, glibc,....
19:22:55 <AnMaster> how much do webkit do of the job?
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19:23:05 <ehird> it renders the actual pages and keeps the cookies
19:23:12 <ehird> so about as much as gecko.
19:23:16 <ehird> webkit is very embeddable.
19:23:28 <AnMaster> I don't know the details of gecko either
19:23:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm wondering is "is it just providing buttons, just rendering, or something in between"
19:23:57 <AnMaster> I guess the latter alternative
19:24:48 <pikhq> Gecko is horrifying.
19:28:36 <pikhq> Huh. All the programs I use are suggested by them as "cool programs".
19:28:50 <ehird> What, including xulrunner?
19:29:13 <pikhq> Conkeror, specifically.
19:29:29 <ehird> their web servers list is a bit bare; I should write that webserver sometime
19:30:52 <ehird> wow, xmms2 is still going
19:33:10 <ehird> pikhq: the suckless guys really like the plan 9 shell rc, btw; it's worth checking out for fun unixy scripting:
19:33:28 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html
19:33:28 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/rc
19:33:51 <ehird> it actually unifies all the shell concepts
19:33:54 <ehird> with a nice syntax
19:36:09 <ehird> e.g. a proper string concatenation operator
19:38:25 <AnMaster> http://suckless.org/common/broken_programs <-- point two is a pain in VMs btw
19:38:37 <AnMaster> oh and on my laptop when DPI size is set correctly
19:38:50 <AnMaster> plenty of programs try to render taller than the screen
19:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: on windows, basically no program works with correct dpi
19:38:55 <ehird> they all use pixels
19:39:11 <ehird> just saying you should be glad
19:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't use a nice looking QT frontend for qemu. because it rendered taller than my screen
19:40:01 <pikhq> ehird: I think I love Plan 9 shell.
19:40:16 <ehird> and plan9port has it for modern unices
19:40:21 <ehird> no line editing, though; use rlwrap or sth
19:40:34 <AnMaster> "In any case, the ICCCM requests that clients accept any size the window manager proposes to them." <-- there are issues with that, what if you can't fit in? Scrollbars?
19:40:36 <pikhq> It's, like, Bourne minus the suck.
19:40:46 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the WM's problem
19:41:04 <ehird> pikhq: in fact, the website generator (static files + some dynamic bits) powering suckless.org is written in rc
19:41:09 <ehird> and doesn't look awkward at all
19:41:19 <ehird> before that they had a server-side wiki written in rc and it was like 100 lines
19:41:46 <ehird> yeah, I think I'm gonna s/zsh/rc/ on my system now
19:41:57 <ehird> which i suppose officially makes me a plan 9 weenie
19:42:03 <AnMaster> "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints that only work properly with a window manager supporting these extensions – this simply breaks the ICCCM as well. E.g. trash icon programs." <-- so they wish to forbid all apps meant to work in taskbars and such
19:42:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's a standardised way of doing that, FWIW.
19:42:31 <ehird> trash icons require hints from the wm that icccm doesn't require
19:43:15 <AnMaster> ehird, trash icon, do you mean like the one found in the lower panel on default gnome desktop?
19:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it different from, say, the gnome mixer thingy, or the kde mixer thingy, or any other app?
19:43:57 <ehird> you can drag things on to it
19:43:58 <AnMaster> that puts it's icon in the taskbar
19:44:03 <ehird> for vaguely specified values of thing
19:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. maybe you can't for normal such
19:44:13 <ehird> and it uses non-ICCM magick
19:44:36 <ehird> hmm, rlwrap appears to have some rendering problems with the tab char
19:44:43 <AnMaster> ehird, it is meant for gnome I guess, could be considered part of gnome, rather than freestanding app only working with gnome
19:45:00 <ehird> it's specifically saying that gnome's trash icon breaks the icccm
19:45:01 <AnMaster> it sounds a bit like "the setting apps for window maker only works with window maker"
19:45:09 <pikhq> ehird: They made the conditionals sane! ZOMG!
19:45:11 <ehird> it breaks the iccm
19:45:22 <ehird> pikhq: and the loops
19:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ICCM way of doing that then I wonder
19:45:38 <ehird> pikhq: btw, 'rlwrap -c rc' almost works; the automatic tabbing it does messes up after an enter
19:45:54 <ehird> but it completes filenames perfectly
19:46:03 <ehird> and logs to .rc_history
19:46:57 <AnMaster> why wouldn't xchat work in a tiling vm
19:47:22 <ehird> -l If -l is given or the first character of argument zero is -,
19:47:22 <ehird> rc reads commands from $home/lib/profile, if it exists,
19:47:22 <ehird> before reading its normal input.
19:47:22 <ehird> ↑ heh, a vestige of plan 9
19:47:53 <ehird> prolly worth writing a shell script that lets your normal .profile run, then "exec rlwrap -c rc"
19:47:57 <ehird> and using that as your shell
19:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, "as your shell" == "login shell"?
19:49:12 <AnMaster> I wonder if using a shebang script as the shell works
19:49:15 <ehird> that way you can keep a single profile, and avoid the $HOME/lib/profile stuff
19:49:22 <ehird> AnMaster: we're about to find out
19:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, make sure you aren't using ubuntu OR have an extra account able to sudo :P
19:49:54 <ehird> or just keep a shell open.
19:49:57 <AnMaster> oh and don't forget to update the list of valid shells
19:50:08 <ehird> /Users/ehird/bin:/usr/local/bin:/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/Users/ehird/.cabal/bin:/Applications/J/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/plan9/bin
19:50:31 <AnMaster> ehird, updated /etc/shells? otherwise it will probably work until you try a clean login
19:50:41 <ehird> chsh doesn't let you use a non /etc/shells shells.
19:51:20 <ehird> hmm, 'rlwrap <shell>' has some side-effects
19:51:26 <ehird> like messing up if a child program uses readline
19:51:31 <ehird> will have to fix. sometime.
19:53:07 <ehird> still, i have an rc shell with completion and line editing basically working when i opwn a new terminal
19:54:06 <ehird> acme works surprisingly well on os x
19:54:11 <ehird> even has a proper dock icon
19:54:18 <ehird> albeit all graphical plan 9 apps just have the bunny :)
19:54:35 <fizzie> I wonder about XChat on that list too; I'm using awesome (which is not just tiling but also non-re-parenting) and haven't seen any problems re xchat.
19:55:06 <ehird> "The program assumes a specific window management model"
19:55:11 <ehird> "The application uses a fixed size – this limitation does not fit into the world of tiling window managers very well"
19:55:17 <ehird> "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints"
19:55:21 <ehird> "The program does not conform to ICCCM due to some missing or improperly set hints."
19:55:40 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that last one is the likeliest.
19:56:09 <ehird> pikhq: if you want to go down the rabbit hole a bit more, make sure you have plan9port and try sam(1)
19:56:15 <ehird> it's graphical ed and it's actually nice.
19:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, xchat won't let me resize the window (running under KDE 3.5) to less than menu bar + topic bar + one line of the text window + the input field
19:58:33 <ehird> pikhq: and hey, ken thompson, brian kernighan and bjarne stroustrup can't be wrong, right?
19:58:43 <AnMaster> limit for width seems to be when entries in menu bar would go outside the window
19:59:15 <AnMaster> as for the last one, yes quite likely
20:00:25 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to have some sort of minimum size, doesn't go any smaller.
20:01:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think GTK would gracefully handle "less width than the menus take up" in a sane way
20:01:46 <AnMaster> anyway, I'm not sure it is sensible to try to handle it
20:02:19 <AnMaster> might be best to error out or something with a dialog saying that the user should use xchat mini for phones (or something like that ;)
20:02:20 <fizzie> Not sanely, no, but at least the Iceweasel window doesn't seem to have any minimum size.
20:03:55 <fizzie> Quite a lot of GTK programs seem to have size restrictions. And if I try to make gconf-editor go smaller than what it wants, it prints (gconf-editor:6735): Gtk-WARNING **: gtk_widget_size_allocate(): attempt to allocate widget with width -5 and height 13
20:06:39 <AnMaster> I can understand it's (its?) distress
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20:08:19 <ehird_> a lot of messages dropped
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: well, okay, the latter can be.
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: dennis ritchie used to use it but now uses acme
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that.
20:08:35 <ehird_> [20:02] ehird: pikhq: oh, something that might turn you away from rc: it has & but no ^Z job control; you're meant to use a windowing system instead
20:08:36 <ehird_> [20:03] ehird: (in fact, they were making that case in 1994 :P)
20:08:36 <ehird_> [20:04] ehird: oh, and you have to use $home, not ~
20:09:11 <ehird_> pikhq: awesome rc thing -
20:09:35 <ehird_> % echo 'Hello, '^(world chicken pikhq)^'!'
20:09:35 <ehird_> Hello, world! Hello, chicken! Hello, pikhq!
20:09:41 <ehird_> it's like an array language!
20:10:54 <ehird_> oh, a problem with rlwrapping rc
20:11:01 <ehird_> it's dumb and doesn't understand the changed directory
20:11:04 <MizardX> how about % echo ('Hello, ' 'Good bye, ')^(world chicken pikhq) ?
20:11:06 <ehird_> maybe i should just hack rc to add readline
20:11:18 <ehird_> MizardX: rc: mismatched list lengths in concatenation
20:11:40 <ehird_> would be cool if that worked, though :P
20:12:08 <ehird_> ^x and x^ on both of those parts respectively is,
20:12:15 <ehird_> ('Hello, x' 'Good bye, x')
20:12:24 <ehird_> (xworld xchicken xpikhq)
20:12:29 <ehird_> so it probably should be
20:12:45 <ehird_> ('Hello, world' 'Good bye, world' 'Hello, chicken' 'Good bye, chicken' 'Hello, pikhq' 'Good bye, pikhq')
20:12:50 <ehird_> giving precedent to the first list
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20:16:31 * ehird_ opens rc source in acme, types grep -r 'main(' ., then drags the middle mouse button over it and gets the results in a separate pane
20:16:38 <ehird_> has anyone used those mice that have a scroll wheel, but a separate middle button?
20:16:42 <ehird_> the scroll wheel is on the middle button
20:17:29 <ehird_> it would be a godsend for plan 9
20:19:55 <ais523> ooh, ICANN has finally cracked down on domain squatters who don't buy the domain they're squatting
20:20:06 <ehird_> how about cracking down on all of them
20:20:27 <ais523> if more than 10% of a registrar's domains are cancelled, they're charged $6.75 per domain cancelled
20:20:49 <ehird_> the internet is an interesting dictatorship
20:21:31 <ehird_> ooh, double clicking was invented as a hack because the Apple Lisa's mouse only had one button
20:21:35 <ais523> http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/08/escalating-penalties-bring-domain-tasting-to-a-crashing-halt.ars
20:22:19 <AnMaster> <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that.<-- that == ?
20:22:41 <ehird_> .......................................
20:22:51 <ehird_> You guessed it was that
20:22:53 <GregorR-L> Never heard the expression "domain tasters" before.
20:23:07 <AnMaster> which it refuses to resize below
20:23:09 <ehird_> The suckless people aren't saying "let us open windows that are smaller than a menu"
20:23:13 <ehird_> "DON'T USE A FIXED SIZE"
20:23:19 <ehird_> as in IGNORES the WM, always
20:25:39 <ehird_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_trails ;; who the hell thinks these are a good idea
20:27:49 <FireFly> Especially the Windows implementation... looks like separate cursors
20:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird_, whoever implemented the feature, or the manager that decided it should be implemented
20:29:30 <AnMaster> "Mouse pointer trails have been provided as a feature mainly for users with poor vision and for screens that are difficult to see, such as LCD screens in bright sunlight." <-- no idea about that. But if the user both has poor vision and is using a computer for the first time in his life?
20:34:26 <oklopol> i used to love pointer trails
20:36:14 <oklopol> okay this is so much prettier
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20:43:56 <CESSMASTER> by "vision problems" they mean "poor visual tastse"
20:44:19 <oklopol> of course it is. of course, i'd like it even more if it was like a flock of birds
20:44:42 <oklopol> being interesting > being useful
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20:45:05 <oklopol> of course, the trails aren't that interesting
20:46:29 <AnMaster> IDEA: Be able to type on single mouse and keyboard and have the stuff happen on the right computer (laptop or desktop) automagically.
20:46:48 <AnMaster> I think it could actually work
20:47:12 <AnMaster> one computer would somehow redirect keyboard/mouse events to the other computer if I was looking at it's screen
20:47:18 <oklopol> why not use an eye tracker for the mouse?
20:47:21 <pikhq> IDEA: Screw window management. Try OS management.
20:47:23 <oklopol> i've always wondered about that
20:47:25 <ehird_> AnMaster: consider the usecase of typing on irc while glancing over at the porn on your other computer.
20:47:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm. how do you click?
20:47:34 <ehird_> it's very important to take porn into account when designing a UI
20:47:41 <ehird_> oklopol: prolly been done
20:47:44 <oklopol> well blinking, if that works
20:47:46 <pikhq> Where you don't have each window with an application in it, but just a bunch of OSes.
20:47:47 <ehird_> dasher has been implemented with eyes
20:47:50 <ehird_> it requires no clicking
20:48:02 <ehird_> AnMaster: any response to the all important porn complaint? in fact i should name that
20:48:12 <ehird_> Elliott's Law: if a UI doesn't make it easy to interact with porn, it will fail.
20:48:18 <pikhq> This begins to approach ehirdOS as you take it to the obvious conclusions.
20:48:31 <ehird_> everything begins to approach ehirdOS that way
20:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird_, for the porn thingy: why not just use the same computer
20:48:34 <ehird_> apart from really bad things
20:48:35 <MizardX> http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ <-- move mouse pointer between different computers
20:48:45 <AnMaster> both fit on my 21" monitor of desktop
20:48:48 <ehird_> that + sloppy focus could work
20:48:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: it could be HD porn!
20:49:22 <AnMaster> reason for using both: messing around with virtualbox on laptop and some 3D stuff on desktop
20:50:10 <AnMaster> oh btw ehird.... I get different PUIDs when ripping with laptop and desktop
20:50:19 <AnMaster> seems to be due to "length off by a few frames"
20:50:31 <AnMaster> a cd frame is like a fraction of a second
20:50:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, someone suggested pregap too
20:50:59 <ehird_> I have a CD with a song in the pregap
20:51:08 <ehird_> no computer cd drives in this house can see it
20:51:44 <AnMaster> anyway I used cdparanoia on both desktop and laptop...
20:51:45 <ehird_> on a stereo you can rewind from track 1
20:51:57 <AnMaster> for *most* tracks it is the same
20:52:07 <AnMaster> on one cd for example it was off for two tracsk
20:52:39 <AnMaster> don't know which is "correct", since I added the cd to MB myself a few weeks ago
20:52:46 <AnMaster> so don't have any reference to use
20:53:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, about eye tracker for mouse
20:53:53 <AnMaster> sure it would work nice a lot of the time, assuming the precision is good enough
20:53:55 <ehird_> eye tracker for mouse in an fps would be fun
20:54:11 <AnMaster> but, I often look somewhere else on screen after I already aimed mouse
20:54:20 <AnMaster> 1. look where I want to go, start moving
20:54:21 <ehird_> that + gun controller with trigger that acts as a click
20:54:25 <ehird_> and foot pedals for jumping
20:54:28 <AnMaster> 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever
20:54:33 <ehird_> maybe a scroll wheel dealie on the other hand for switching weapons
20:54:36 <AnMaster> 3. click the place without looking at it
20:54:49 <ehird_> oh and another pedal for "forwards" of coures.
20:55:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: 1. look where I want to go, start moving ||| AnMaster: 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever <<< with an eye tracker, this makes no sense
20:55:25 <oklopol> because at 1., you've done clicking.
20:55:32 <oklopol> that's the fucking beauty of it, not a problem of it
20:55:42 <ehird_> AnMaster: elbow licking controller
20:56:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, however, I sometimes don't want to move mouse, like when I'm dragging something, and then I look for checking something in a terminal, then continue to drag
20:56:07 <AnMaster> as in, verify while I'm doing it
20:56:11 <ehird_> just drag it over the terminal
20:56:25 <ehird_> i feel like clenching your eyes should be clicking
20:56:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm not saying it works directly with the current ui's.
20:56:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, no, like you rest your elbow on the armrest of your chair, then your chin in your palm
20:56:54 <ehird_> AnMaster: no, elbow licking.
20:56:56 <AnMaster> then you move your elbow slightly
20:57:03 <AnMaster> ehird_, well that could work too
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20:57:36 <AnMaster> btw, how would you drag with that interface
20:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway blink wouldn't work
20:58:01 <AnMaster> since human eyes blink every few seconds
20:58:19 <oklopol> you don't need a few seconds for anything mouse-related
20:58:25 <AnMaster> built in behaviour to keep the eye surface moist
20:58:38 <ehird_> AnMaster is telling us that our eyes blink automatically
20:58:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think you misunderstood
20:58:42 <oklopol> anyway i'd just have buttons.
20:58:54 <AnMaster> that would be mistaken for clicks
20:59:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, would work better but be less coool
20:59:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah i know your point. i never suggested clicking
20:59:25 <oklopol> anyway eye clenching, why not
21:00:34 <oklopol> i would suggest having tons of little movements of the eyelids, but i do admit not everyone would probably like that
21:00:57 <oklopol> but you could get three clicks with just left clench, right clench, both clench
21:01:07 <ehird_> I think both should be left
21:01:10 <ehird_> since it's the easiest
21:01:23 <ehird_> oklopol: ooh i have a good one
21:01:29 <ehird_> rolling your eyes in the back of your head is scrolling.
21:01:40 <oklopol> i don't see a difference in easiness, but yeah it's relatively common for people not to like moving them separately
21:01:46 <MizardX> Facial expression controller
21:02:05 <oklopol> what do you mean rolling them in the back of your head?
21:02:21 <oklopol> like, upwards, until under the lids?
21:02:37 <oklopol> some people can't do that either
21:03:32 <fizzie> From what I hear, eye-tracking for control is pretty iffy, since the actual eye-movement stuff is not so very conscious, and the actual tracking systems that exist now are not very accurate. (An eye is not quite like a trackball ball, after all.)
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21:04:23 <oklopol> well if they aren't perfectly accurate, then it'd obviously suck
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21:05:14 <fizzie> The augmented-reality multimodal-interfaces people are playing with eye-trackers, I hear from them every now and then.
21:05:36 <fizzie> There's that http://www.pinview.eu/ project.
21:05:37 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't know about conscious, but whenever i want to click something, i look at it. so at least if there was like a button to start following eyes, it'd work for me
21:06:17 <ehird_> oklopol: i can't roll them in the back of my head either
21:06:23 <ehird_> since it makes you feel sick too from what i gather
21:06:43 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just not sure their "okay, now the user is actually consciously focusing on this thing" detection is so good. It can't just go around selecting everything you look at.
21:06:49 <ehird_> i can wiggle my ear if i smile...
21:07:18 <oklopol> ehird_: i can do it easily
21:07:25 <AnMaster> I can wiggle my ears up/down easily
21:07:41 <oklopol> i can make my eyes shake around wildly
21:07:45 <AnMaster> can't do the "eyes under eyelids"
21:07:58 <oklopol> they don't make a sound though
21:08:10 <AnMaster> I can move my ears separately, but not easily
21:08:14 <fizzie> Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was.
21:08:20 <ehird_> okay i have come up with an interface that almost all humans will like to use
21:08:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: I can move my ears separately, but not easily <<< i never learned that :<
21:08:32 <ehird_> basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it
21:08:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, it is more like "one moves a lot, the other moves a tiny bit"
21:08:49 <AnMaster> rather than "one moves, the other doesn't"
21:08:50 <ehird_> i hear its fundamental controller is very popular
21:08:56 <oklopol> ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too.
21:09:24 <oklopol> fizzie: Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was. <<< i have two completely different vibrations!
21:09:29 <AnMaster> <ehird_> basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it <-- measure how? As in "in what position" or what?
21:09:42 <fizzie> Speaking of that fundamental controller, this is an old thing but still a bit related, http://web.media.mit.edu/~hayes/mas863/urinecontrol.html
21:09:44 <ehird_> AnMaster: just, like, micromeasurements
21:09:52 <AnMaster> <oklopol> ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too. <-- what about eyebrows?
21:10:05 <ehird_> fizzie: does it involve trying to hit various flies in the urinal
21:10:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: oklopol, are they still? <<< no, which makes it trivial and uninteresting; damn you for asking :P
21:10:58 <oklopol> well for the nose, they are still
21:11:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:11:26 <oklopol> anyway, these facial things are goddamn hard to learn, and they say many can't be learned at all, like the tongue things
21:11:42 <oklopol> so i consider the fact i've been able to learn them mostly luck
21:12:02 <AnMaster> yes some are genetic controlled
21:12:18 <AnMaster> some of the tongue ones for example
21:12:24 <oklopol> not that i can imagine anyone except myself actually making an effort towards learning them, but probably there have been some studies
21:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird_, yep that is one of them
21:12:42 <ehird_> it's easy you just like
21:12:44 <oklopol> ehird_: i can roll it in two ways
21:12:51 <AnMaster> ehird_, you have the recessive gene then
21:12:53 <ehird_> well i can do the tube thing
21:12:57 <oklopol> it's the weird wave thing, making it look like a flower, that i can't do
21:13:09 <ehird_> then unfold that and the next bit
21:13:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, how far up/down can you reach
21:13:21 <ehird_> AnMaster: like, my tougue?
21:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, as in, stick it out, try to touch your nose/beard
21:13:43 <ehird_> i'm 13. i don't have a beard.
21:13:50 <ehird_> i can touch just below the tip of my nose
21:13:57 <ehird_> and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin
21:14:03 <AnMaster> <ehird_> i can touch just below the tip of my nose <-- same
21:14:11 <AnMaster> <ehird_> and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin <-- I can do a bit more
21:14:19 <AnMaster> as in, quite a far bit downwards
21:14:22 <oklopol> i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it
21:14:26 <ehird_> i say a bit, i'm really quite far away frmo it
21:14:56 <fizzie> Soon you'll be comparing tongue size with rulers.
21:15:17 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it <-- I shave whenever the moustache causes problems with eating
21:15:24 <AnMaster> which is usually every second month or so
21:15:45 <AnMaster> so quite a short beard and moustache atm
21:16:14 <ehird_> moustaches are the worst things to happen to faces
21:16:17 <AnMaster> however, this is all due to laziness
21:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, nah, not when they are connected to the beards
21:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird_, think full beard, old sailor with pipe in his mouth, there is a moustache there too, but it's ends would be connected to the beard
21:17:39 <ehird_> I don't want to think about Alan's cocks.
21:17:51 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Alan_Cox_at_FOSS_2007.jpg is I guess reasonably current.
21:18:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, similiar, but Alan Cox's facial hair is kind of... unordered?
21:18:08 <ehird_> i want to grow a beard that trails
21:18:11 <fizzie> Yes, you could call it that.
21:18:12 <oklopol> a moustache is okay if it's significantly smaller than the beard
21:18:12 <ehird_> like, around the whole room
21:18:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's just so dynamic! Vibrant! Energized! (See, my adjectives are far more positive.)
21:19:24 <AnMaster> ok that was interesting... I closed firefox, saving tabs. then five seconds later it, it reopened, resaved tabs, and closed again
21:20:19 <ehird_> email quote syntaxes suck
21:20:35 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm? maybe something xml based would be better
21:20:51 <ehird_> [[On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:39, Elliott Hird <penguinofthegods@googlemail.com> wrote:]]
21:20:54 <ehird_> could be written just as well as
21:21:05 <ehird_> [[Elliott Hird, today:]]
21:21:21 <ehird_> or, if it wasn't the same day,
21:21:25 <fizzie> I don't think he's at Red Hat nowadays; certainly worked there a lot, though.
21:21:30 <ehird_> [[Elliott Hird, 2009-08-14:]]
21:21:34 <fizzie> Yes, "Alan was employed by Linux distributor Red Hat for ten years, leaving in January 2009. He is now employed by Intel."
21:21:34 <ehird_> i guess gmail's comes close
21:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, well it is also l10n usually
21:21:41 <ehird_> hmm those , and : are rather unneeded
21:21:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: dude, you archive the message date.
21:22:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, well. why the additional logic trying to interpret that
21:22:26 <AnMaster> rather, have a standard format
21:22:41 <ehird_> because email is for human
21:22:47 <AnMaster> and then have the mail program/site translate it
21:22:59 <fizzie> rec.games.roguelike.nethack used to have quite a few decidedly non-standard quote headers.
21:23:27 <ehird_> "ELLIOTT HIRD WONDERED LONELY AS A CLOUD AND THEN VOMITED THIS MESSAGE - LOOK AREN'T I COOL I HAVE A CUSTOM QUOTE HEADER -"
21:23:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can find some, but you can guess the style. And I suppose they really would actually be quite rare, just selection bias in memory.
21:23:45 <ehird_> including the date in the quote header
21:23:48 <ehird_> is totally unneccesary
21:23:55 <ehird_> since you can trivially find the original message in a threaded system
21:24:14 <AnMaster> ehird_, there is an issue, what if you don't have the original
21:24:34 <ehird_> you should forward it in mbox format or whatever
21:24:38 <ehird_> besides, date isn't the only thing you'd miss
21:24:41 <ehird_> you'd miss subjects too etc
21:24:48 <ehird_> AnMaster: no, mbox. because it's one file.
21:25:10 <ehird_> uhh, mbox is standard.
21:25:11 <AnMaster> there would be NO way we would end up with one format
21:25:23 <ehird_> i don't fucking care about standardisation
21:25:32 <ehird_> AnMaster: variants don't matter, it's for human consumption
21:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, From: has to be quoted
21:25:41 <ehird_> nobody will adopt this quote format except me
21:25:44 <ehird_> so only i have to care
21:25:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: NOT TO THE HUMAN BRAIN!
21:25:50 <ehird_> only to a dumb machine parser
21:26:00 <AnMaster> ehird_, well, why use mbox then
21:26:01 <ehird_> we're talking about forwarding, to humans
21:26:09 <ehird_> AnMaster: because it's standard, pretty easy to read
21:26:13 <ehird_> and everything has support for it already
21:26:55 <oklopol> you're such an annoying practicalist
21:27:25 <fizzie> I would think the date-in-quote-header would be more useful in the case where someone Cc:s you in a reply; it sounds a bit complicated to start sending mbox files around at that point.
21:27:34 <ehird_> it's just 'From <some crap>', message
21:27:40 <ehird_> (raw message, inc headers)
21:27:48 <ehird_> fizzie: why is date so important
21:27:53 <ehird_> why date and not everything else too
21:28:13 <ehird_> besides, clients add reply-to headers
21:28:17 <ehird_> that's how threading works
21:28:28 <ehird_> why are you so obsessed with date and time?
21:28:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, yes, but for CC you wouldn't have the metadata of the original mail
21:28:41 <AnMaster> unless it was in some mailing list
21:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird_, because that and email are the only useful ones? Possibly subject too
21:29:29 <AnMaster> but stuff like X-Mail-Client or whatever
21:29:35 <ehird_> <me> why is date so useful
21:29:35 <ehird_> <AnMaster> because date is useful
21:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird_, well, I can't see why it would be *less* useful than most other headers
21:30:13 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure how useful the date is, but it's certainly more useful than the other headers, discounting from/to/subject, which you would get in the "cc'd reply" case.
21:30:30 <ehird_> to understand the message all you need is the name
21:30:47 <AnMaster> like, if there is a misunderstanding between three persons
21:30:52 <ehird_> what if it's a flamewar about the subject
21:30:55 <ehird_> then the subject is important
21:30:59 <ehird_> let's include the subject too!
21:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, sounds like it might be useful
21:31:27 <ehird_> congrats, I just reductio ad absurdum'd your ass
21:31:32 <AnMaster> for "internal timeline purposes"
21:31:34 <ehird_> you just suggested putting the subject in quote lines.
21:32:01 <AnMaster> ehird_, I think it might be reasonable yes
21:32:12 -!- coppro has joined.
21:32:15 <ehird_> so let's include every header, just in case
21:32:18 <fizzie> Whoa! I just realized this conversation is going nowhere!
21:32:22 <ehird_> maybe it's a flamewar about someone using outlook
21:32:26 <AnMaster> ehird_, can you prove subject isn't useful?
21:32:32 <AnMaster> you asked me to prove date was useful
21:32:36 <ehird_> AnMaster: can you prove god doesn't exist?
21:32:44 <ehird_> also, ↑ about mail client.
21:32:58 <fizzie> Can you prove oklopol exists! That's something I've often wondered.
21:32:59 <AnMaster> ehird_, then you asked me to prove the something similar
21:33:07 <AnMaster> in which case you were just trolling
21:33:20 <ehird_> you're ignoring my analogous argument because it reflects badly on yorus
21:33:31 <oklopol> fizzie: pay for a train ticket, and you'll have your proof
21:33:54 <fizzie> Ah, that's just be some starlight reflecting from swamp gas if I saw you.
21:34:05 <fizzie> A weather balloon or something.
21:34:14 <ehird_> i should go and meet oklopol sometime, always wondered what it's like to be murdered
21:34:46 <oklopol> ehird_: actually finland outlawed murder
21:34:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:34:55 <ehird_> oklopol: you pirate things on bittorrent
21:34:57 <ehird_> that's illegal too innit
21:35:08 <oklopol> ehird_: yes, but torrents don't have worried mums
21:35:17 <ehird_> so kill my mother first.
21:35:23 <fizzie> "When you pirate software, you're murdering ehird."
21:35:35 <fizzie> "Please think of the ehirds."
21:35:51 <oklopol> ehird_: could you bring her along, i mean i'm not interested in coming to britain atm?
21:36:35 <oklopol> also bring the 30 you owe me
21:37:31 <ehird_> oklopol: why not do two illegal things before breakfast!
21:37:59 * AnMaster re-reads IWC (it was so many hours ago I read it, I forgot it)
21:38:11 <oklopol> murdering is just illegal, i don't think euthanasia is wrong, although i do think it should be outlawed
21:38:27 <ais523> oklopol: it's rare for someone to think that something isn't wrong but should be illegal
21:38:32 <ehird_> oklopol: why outlaw it if it's wrong? xP
21:38:34 <oklopol> i guess euthanasia can't be used unless you have like cancer, but anyway
21:38:40 <ehird_> i like how oklopol equates euthanasia with murder
21:38:45 <ehird_> "I'm saving you from the horrors of nihilism!"
21:39:14 <oklopol> ehird_: naturally i don't think it'd be right to murder you if you didn't ask for it.
21:39:18 <oklopol> also even if you did, i wouldn't believe you
21:39:23 <ehird_> oklopol: but then it's not murder!
21:39:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: this seems a bit ahistorical, isn't the indiana jones theme supposed to be _before_ ww2
21:39:44 <oklopol> but, if i did believe you, and the law couldn't catch me, i probably might murder you. but, that's completely hypothetical.
21:39:59 <oklopol> ehird_: well right, i guess it's not murder.
21:40:01 * ehird_ wonders what to call this http server
21:40:08 <oerjan> and the us didn't start on an atomic bomb until they joined the war, i think
21:40:31 <oklopol> ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval.
21:40:54 <oklopol> still, there's nothing wrong with having done so, if that signature is not a fake, and hasn't been forced.
21:41:09 <oklopol> there's nothing controversial about that, law is not enforced by a god.
21:41:29 <ehird_> oklopol: what you're saying is you think murder is wrong and illegal
21:41:33 <oklopol> also, for the record, i'm not going to murder anyone :P
21:41:33 <ehird_> but consensual killing is neither
21:41:54 <ehird_> but you're warping this to "consensual killing is the same as murder, and murder is okay but should be illegal"
21:41:58 <oklopol> ehird_: consensual killing should be illegal, but it isn't wrong, that i say.
21:42:11 <ehird_> oklopol: ...but why should something that isn't wrong be illegal?
21:42:19 <oklopol> "murder" is never neither, i haven't been talking about murder, even if i've used the term.
21:42:29 <oklopol> ehird_: i already explained that
21:42:38 <ehird_> [21:40] oklopol: ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval.
21:42:39 <fizzie> Murder's never wrong or illegal?
21:42:40 <oklopol> because nothing should be proof enough that it's consensual.
21:42:52 <ehird_> oklopol: but that isn't how it works!
21:42:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, before or during the first part iirc
21:43:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm, einstein's letter was a month before ww2 started
21:43:21 <oerjan> before that, the americans didn't even have the idea
21:44:07 * ehird_ considers naming this program two-letteredly
21:44:13 <ehird_> and polluting the unix namespace further!
21:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, I'm sure I would never install any of your apps then :P
21:44:55 <oklopol> how is that not how it works, law is for rules that are useful for keeping the society in order, right and wrong are just ideals, in an imperfect society, they do not mean the same thing
21:45:08 <ehird_> http://st.suckless.org/, http://tools.suckless.org/ii
21:45:16 <oklopol> with perfect information, and perfect enforcement, they can be the same thing
21:45:24 <oklopol> anyway, i hope at least ais523 got my point
21:45:28 <ehird_> oklopol: i guess i understand
21:45:42 <ehird_> i think that it's very possible to prove you want to die
21:45:44 <oklopol> oh? you seem to be getting soft, or then i'm getting more intelligent.
21:45:57 <oklopol> i never used to get you to admit anything, even if i mathematically prove you wrong
21:46:03 <AnMaster> The program consists of a single window (There are no nested windows, such as in Xpdf) <-- xpdf uses nested windows?
21:46:12 <oklopol> ehird_: yes, very possible to prove it to me
21:46:14 <AnMaster> from http://suckless.org/common/cool_programs
21:46:27 <ehird_> if you can prove to a court that you honestly want to sincerely end your life, then it's legal to be killed
21:46:35 <ehird_> although i think suicide should always be legal, no questions asked
21:46:42 <ehird_> it is in the UK i think
21:46:45 <ehird_> just not assisting suicide
21:46:49 <ehird_> which is basically... anything
21:46:57 <ehird_> prolly including saying "well, if that's your choice"
21:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird_, angle of viewing is very good on this laptop, I have it 50 degrees or so and it is still pretty much the right colours
21:47:42 <ehird_> AnMaster: heh, people have said it isn't too good on the x200, but the screen is the same
21:47:44 <AnMaster> maybe slightly more contrast than right ahead
21:47:54 <oklopol> well. maybe consensual killing should be legal in some situations, but that's a much more complicated subject, and i don't want to touch it.
21:48:03 <AnMaster> however, at around 65 degrees the colours suddenly invert
21:48:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, xpdf has some sort of document-model thing; you occasionally get a bit wonky focus behaviour in it.
21:48:12 <ehird_> AnMaster: yeah, LCDs do that
21:48:19 <ehird_> this IPS screen is the bomb
21:48:40 <ehird_> no dead pixels that I notice, basically infinite viewing angle
21:48:48 <AnMaster> well, 50 degrees is enough to have laptop in front of desktop monitor
21:48:54 <AnMaster> and be able to see both screens completel
21:49:06 <AnMaster> now is the issue with typing still to solve
21:49:09 -!- M0ny has quit.
21:49:16 <AnMaster> I would want ONE keyboard + eye tracking to figure out which
21:49:17 <ehird_> hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch
21:49:24 <ehird_> AnMaster: just use sloppy focus
21:49:34 <ehird_> (note: sloppy focus != focus-follows mouse)
21:49:45 <ehird_> AnMaster: sloppy focus = keyboard focus follows mouse, but click to raise
21:49:50 <ehird_> Linus Torvalds loves it
21:49:58 <ehird_> and so do a bunch of other unixheads
21:50:09 <ehird_> AnMaster: then just use synergy to map keyboard to mouse
21:50:25 <ehird_> mouse on computer = kb on computer
21:50:34 <ehird_> you know what would be cool in a synergy-like thing + ehirdOS?
21:50:40 <ehird_> xinerama for the objects, across machines
21:50:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, can I use the keyboard of either computer then to control the other
21:50:45 <ehird_> drag the object across, voila! it's migrated
21:50:49 <ehird_> including any in-prgoress computation
21:50:58 <AnMaster> or does one need to be "the controlling end"
21:51:11 <ais523> hey, an iPhone advert just came on
21:51:19 <ais523> talking about all the stuff you can do with copy-and-paste
21:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, basically I have mouse connected to desktop and I want to use either laptop trackball or that mouse to control either computer
21:51:34 <ehird_> to be fair the iphone's copy-and-paste implementation is very elegant
21:51:41 <ehird_> AnMaster: not trackball
21:51:45 <ais523> how does it work? it looked like double-clicking from the animation
21:51:47 <ehird_> or, well, nipple mouse
21:52:02 <AnMaster> ehird_, oh and, how does synergy + mouse grabbing apps like virtualbox?
21:52:02 <ehird_> ais523: hold across a word/whatever to select, then release
21:52:09 <ehird_> where text is highlighted
21:52:09 <ais523> I've seen laptops with a trackball, but they aren't common any more
21:52:15 <ehird_> drag each | to change the selection
21:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, since I'm using such atm
21:52:25 <ehird_> you can also eg press backspace then
21:52:32 <ehird_> ais523: another way is
21:52:36 <ehird_> hold down to bring up the focusing thingy
21:52:39 <ehird_> then mouse over the word
21:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, even cooler idea: drag windows between computers as you wanted
21:52:45 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure whether synergy supports that sort of configuration; the docs are all "Run the server on the computer that has the keyboard and mouse to be shared."
21:52:51 <ehird_> AnMaster: uhh, that's what I said
21:52:57 <ehird_> and it'd migrate the computation too
21:53:01 <ehird_> it'd actually move computer
21:53:17 <ehird_> anyway, as i was saying, [21:49] ehird_: hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch
21:53:24 <ehird_> servers expect you to say 'GET / HTTP/1.1'
21:53:31 <ehird_> and barf on, e.g. 'GET / HTTP/2.0'
21:53:43 <ehird_> let alone 'GET / HTTP/saner'
21:53:53 <ehird_> so you have to mandate saying 'HTTP/1.1' in your spec
21:54:07 <ehird_> anyway it was just an example
21:54:27 <fizzie> Apache doesn't mind "GET / HTTP/2.0\nHost: ...", it just replies with HTTP/1.1 200 OK. Other servers might mind, though.
21:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway, how does synergy + input grabbing apps work?
21:54:54 <ehird_> % nc www.google.co.uk 80
21:54:54 <ehird_> Host: www.google.co.uk
21:54:54 <ehird_> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
21:54:59 <ehird_> AnMaster: erm, that's the whole point of synergy.
21:55:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: At least synergy with a full-screen game (with a mouse-grabbing scroll-at-screen-border thing) has worked fine.
21:55:33 <AnMaster> then virtualbox should not be an issue
21:55:54 <fizzie> Apache even accepts that "GET / HTTP/sane". That's one helpful server.
21:56:18 <AnMaster> ehird_, an issue with the "move between computers" thingy is when the app is a 3D one...
21:56:28 <ehird_> again, migrate the actual object
21:56:36 <ehird_> computation being sluggish? drag it to your server.
21:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed
21:57:38 <fizzie> I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever.
21:58:30 <oklopol> that almost sounded like sarcasm
21:58:39 <fizzie> Synergy has two rather funny "avoid accidental flips" things; switchDelay and switchDoubleTap. The first is your normal "has to stay at the border for N milliseconds", but the second one is more curious; you have to hit the border twice (move to edge, move away, move back) within the specified time in order to get to the other screen.
21:59:01 <oklopol> fizzie: are you on your period or something? i mean that's kinda not like you.
21:59:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, the latter sounds silly
21:59:29 <oklopol> and one of your things is sticking to your ways
21:59:36 <fizzie> oklopol: Must've been some cosmic radiation flipping a sarcasm bit.
21:59:36 <oklopol> so it confuses me when you do that!
21:59:54 <AnMaster> can you describe a 3D situation that may change
22:00:04 <oklopol> sarcastic logic: 4-valued logic with just 2 symbols
22:00:50 <oklopol> or should that be sarcasm logic
22:00:54 <AnMaster> laptop is standing besides desktop monitor, laptop screen top ends at about 2/5 of the desktop screen side
22:00:59 <AnMaster> and it starts below the desktop screen
22:01:14 <AnMaster> also it is standing at an angle
22:01:41 <oklopol> also that sarcasm joke was probably the best boolean algebra joke i've ever heard
22:02:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: You can specify arbitrary ranges of borders that are linked to equally arbitrary ranges of borders on other screens. I'm not quite sure how you'd want it to take into account the angle, though, since it's not like you can displace the cursor out from the monitor plane.
22:03:04 <fizzie> And dynamic changes in the configuration might be a bit iffy, haven't tried that.
22:03:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure you can, if you use compiz
22:03:18 <AnMaster> it should just be a matter of some 3D cube thingy animation bling-bling
22:03:35 <fizzie> Right, well, it doesn't do that.
22:03:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, good thing, since I don't use compiz
22:03:59 <AnMaster> (compiz fucks up with 3D in virtualbox)
22:04:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway. how does one get started with it
22:04:37 <AnMaster> one computer use a static xorg.conf, no hal crap
22:04:42 * oerjan wishes the rss feed for the esolang forum included comments
22:04:44 <AnMaster> the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu
22:04:49 <fizzie> But you can tell it that if the mouse enters the short bit from 33% to 42% in the left border of the laptop screen, it enters from the range 22% to 77% from top of the desktop, if you want.
22:05:22 <oerjan> yes. not much used though.
22:05:43 <fizzie> I use synergy so rarely that I just wrote a synergy.conf on the computer with the mouse and keyboard, and start that manually when I need it. I assume it's been packetized everywhere.
22:05:45 <oerjan> same host as the wiki.
22:06:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I want either computer's input device to be able to control that of the other
22:06:09 <fizzie> Yes, like I said, I'm not sure it supports that.
22:07:08 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how it's done with synergy, if it can be done.
22:07:30 <AnMaster> "The first step is to pick which keyboard and mouse you want to share. The computer with that keyboard and mouse is called the "primary screen" and it runs the synergy server. All of the other computers are "secondary screens" and run the synergy client."
22:08:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: anyway there was a new post today, which i answered, and then i realized rss won't tell me if there are further responses.
22:09:48 <oerjan> the all threads page show latest post dates, though
22:12:05 <fizzie> For some reason post #3 of the "Esoteric Programming" thread looks like it would belong to someone on #esoteric.
22:13:10 <fizzie> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50
22:13:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not exactly a big problem
22:14:05 <oerjan> it was more trolling than spam that one, i think
22:14:28 <ais523> wow, I forgot the esoforum existed
22:15:16 <oerjan> easy to do, thus i subscribed to the rss
22:15:35 <AnMaster> ok post three's style sound familiar
22:16:24 <oklopol> Slereah_ once printed a massive ascii pic iirc
22:16:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, the newlines there seem more ehird_'s style
22:17:22 <oklopol> ehird_ usually paste spams only relevant data, although not always relevant enough to be paste spammed
22:18:01 <AnMaster> ehird_, was different a few years ago
22:18:10 <AnMaster> 3 Name: Anonymous : 2007-10-19 02:13 ID:uedzKvu7
22:18:32 <AnMaster> but I agree. it isn't his style to do ascii art spam
22:18:54 <AnMaster> ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font
22:19:02 <oklopol> "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either
22:19:13 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid
22:19:49 <AnMaster> the "<beep>\nAlso <beep>" is his style though
22:19:57 <oklopol> should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material?
22:20:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, not until you got the final marks in that course!
22:20:46 <oklopol> this is pretty exact science
22:20:54 <AnMaster> <oklopol> should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material? <-- also, "send along"? Didn't you mean "send a long"?
22:20:58 <oklopol> and the feedback is usually positive
22:21:17 <oklopol> i tend to make a lot of mistakes
22:21:58 <oklopol> i don't need to, because i only do one joke per message :)
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22:36:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, synergy seems to work well for one host controlling the rest
22:37:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't find the "2/3rd" thingy
22:42:11 -!- ehird has joined.
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22:43:11 <ehird> 13:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed
22:43:12 <ehird> 13:57:30 <AnMaster> as an example
22:43:12 <ehird> 13:57:38 <fizzie> I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever.
22:43:23 <ehird> if by clever you mean has a non-shitty design.
22:43:35 <AnMaster> ehird, still synergy is one-way only...
22:44:20 <ehird> 14:04:44 <AnMaster> the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu
22:44:25 <ehird> but err, non-duplicated configuration is crap?
22:44:31 <ehird> linux users are...... stupid
22:44:43 <ehird> but the basic concept is fine
22:44:47 <AnMaster> hopefully for something better
22:44:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's being replaced by its linux replacement
22:44:54 <ehird> which is basically the same but better
22:45:08 <AnMaster> if so there are some config issues
22:45:10 <ehird> hal is being replaced
22:45:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, how do you configure joystick X11 driver for example
22:45:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviceKit
22:45:37 <ehird> Fedora 11 includes it
22:47:17 <ehird> 14:04:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, we have a forum?
22:47:18 <ehird> 14:05:10 <AnMaster> *blink*
22:47:18 <ehird> 14:05:18 <AnMaster> where?
22:47:18 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/forum/
22:47:25 <ehird> the nice, anonymous kind too
22:47:29 <ehird> although most posters don't seem to realise that
22:47:52 <AnMaster> ehird, can you stop doing the log reading more than once / day please ;P
22:48:11 <ehird> 14:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, ^ you lied
22:48:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to indicate you were completely sure
22:48:49 <ehird> 14:14:05 <oerjan> it was more trolling than spam that one, i think
22:49:37 <ehird> you, you /prog/lodytes.
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22:51:06 <ehird> 14:18:54 <AnMaster> ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font
22:51:19 <ehird> you just need the right font.
22:51:36 <ehird> MS PGothic, or for X11, Mona
22:51:40 <ehird> it's Shift_JIS art
22:51:52 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you figure that out
22:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: because I know a lot about the 2channel/world4ch culture
22:52:04 <ehird> also, Mona was specifically created to have the same metrics as MS PGothic
22:52:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you didn't post it?
22:52:58 <ehird> anyway no point worrying about authorship, it's anonymous for a reason
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22:54:59 <ehird> 14:19:02 <oklopol> "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either
22:54:59 <ehird> 14:19:13 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid
22:54:59 <ehird> no, I like that quote
22:55:09 <ehird> 14:19:49 <AnMaster> the "<beep>\nAlso <beep>" is his style though
22:55:10 <ehird> no, that's meme's style
22:55:24 <ehird> AnMaster: read http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/
22:55:35 <ehird> if you say tl;dr, I will stab you and force you to never read anything again
22:56:40 * oerjan thinks ehird must be getting a long list of people to stab
22:56:46 <ehird> people are idiots.
22:58:00 <ehird> 14:20:49 <oklopol> and i don't make mistakes
22:58:01 <ehird> 14:21:17 <oklopol> i tend to make a lot of mistakes
22:58:46 * ehird wonders what on earth AnMaster wants to say to oerjan that's so secret and important
22:59:39 <ais523> telling people to see /msg in-channel doesn't really work, they might not notice
22:59:43 <ais523> do it in a /msg to make sure they see it
23:00:02 <AnMaster> ais523, except I don't normally notice /msg unless someone mentions it in channel
23:00:14 <ehird> oerjan: tell us what he said!
23:00:17 <ais523> AnMaster: set your client up to let you know when someone /msgs you, though
23:00:23 <ais523> it leaves a red tab and a flashing icon for me
23:00:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it was a password for a website. Nothing important
23:00:40 <oklopol> ehird: no, I like that quote <<< okay, but i'm sure you could've hated it
23:00:46 <ehird> i share my password aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the time
23:00:50 <AnMaster> ais523, issue: channel list is longer than fits on screen
23:00:53 <oerjan> my irssi splits the window automatically on a msg
23:01:05 <oerjan> pretty hard not to notice
23:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no as in "bugmenot" kind of share
23:01:25 <AnMaster> ais523, even freenode alone is longer than fits on screen
23:01:36 <ais523> AnMaster: then make the channel tabs smaller
23:01:39 <ehird> ah right to kinkyesotericporn.com, where they fuck brains and ejaculate underloads
23:01:42 <ais523> that was my solution to that problem
23:01:45 <ehird> (↑ man that was a terrible joke)
23:01:51 <ehird> ais523: he has 500 tabs.
23:01:56 <AnMaster> ais523, they are in a tightly packed list at 6 points font
23:01:57 <ehird> over 500 channels + consoles + talks
23:02:14 <ehird> ais523: don't try and tell him to leave the ones he doesn't talk in or look at, he won't understand you
23:02:22 <AnMaster> ehird, over 500 channels alone
23:02:23 <ehird> he speaks in a language almost entirely like english apart from that
23:02:31 <ehird> AnMaster: you parsed it wrong.
23:02:38 <ais523> heh, he's still in #feather-lang
23:02:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I'm waiting for you
23:03:07 <ais523> I'll go in there if there's progress
23:03:11 <ais523> but I'll let #esoteric know at the same time
23:03:27 <AnMaster> * oklopol (n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #feather-lang
23:03:46 <oklopol> yes, big news, i join every channel i see, and part them when my client crashes :)
23:04:55 <AnMaster> ais523, wow you missed lots of action in #feather-lang
23:05:45 <ais523> any /interesting/ action?
23:05:57 <ais523> was it Feather-related?
23:06:46 <ais523> and I saw your msg before you told me, and it was obviously a log
23:07:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: oklopol, what about # <<< can't join it by clicking, and it doesn't look like a channel to me, so i usually wouldn't
23:07:17 <oklopol> when oerjan said #3 earlier, i joined it
23:08:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, you know the effect? right
23:08:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, I half *hoped* you wouldn't
23:08:38 <AnMaster> except then the , was some odd similar looking unicode symbol
23:08:47 <AnMaster> on a network allowing unicode in channel names
23:09:21 <AnMaster> ais523, know a good news client for linux?
23:09:41 <ais523> AnMaster: no, although I've heard Thunderbird is decent
23:09:44 <AnMaster> tried knode, doesn't work well
23:09:47 <pikhq> Oh, you asked for "good".
23:09:49 <oklopol> but as usual, i've read about it.
23:09:53 <ais523> can't recommend it as I haven't used it myself
23:10:10 <AnMaster> also this is news = usenet, not news = some silly rss feed or such
23:10:30 <AnMaster> ais523, should be able to handle binary channels too btw
23:11:20 <AnMaster> (as in, be able to handle yydecode and "split over several messages" well)
23:12:38 <AnMaster> why: because I use a news server that is ipv6 only
23:12:55 <ais523> isn't IPvN support an OS issue, not a client issue?
23:13:09 <AnMaster> ais523, different socket types
23:23:16 <GregorR> I've used Thunderbird for NNTP, it works quite well actually.
23:25:28 <fizzie> I've used Pan, and it works reasonably well.
23:25:32 <fizzie> http://pan.rebelbase.com/
23:25:48 <fizzie> Though I've also used Thunderbird, and it wasn't too awful either.
23:25:58 <fizzie> Still, Pan's news-only, so they do some things better.
23:37:51 <GregorR> I use thunderbird for mail+news+RSS
23:38:01 <GregorR> As an all-in-one, it's pretty sweet.
23:40:17 <pikhq> http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2008/04/open-source-group-announces-jjava.html
23:40:21 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50 <<< i find #7 a lot more annoying than #3
23:40:40 <pikhq> For "busy Java programmers" that "don't have time to learn a new syntax".
23:41:32 <pikhq> ... Yes, because the *syntax* is the hard thing to learn about a new language...
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23:49:55 <ais523> someone ported Java to the JVM?
23:50:51 <pikhq> ais523: Took them long enough.
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00:12:37 <oerjan> fornication under consent of king
00:14:00 * ehird switches to ported rc w/ readline
00:14:06 <ehird> rlwrap was fucking up
00:14:16 * ehird changes prompt from ; to %
00:17:10 <ehird> ; as a prompt could be nice
00:17:14 <ehird> since it causes rc to ignore the prompt
00:24:38 <ehird> okiedokie, I am now using rc as my full-time shell
00:24:58 <ehird> hmm this could interact stickily with plan9port tools using their rc
00:34:55 <ehird> [[A bogger called Josh]] — The Register, referring to Joey Hess.
00:35:02 <ehird> El Reg, the paragon of journalism!
00:35:10 <ehird> And accuracy. And not making mistakes.
00:40:22 <GregorR> They got the first two letters right, that's 50%!
00:40:47 <ehird> GregorR: O RLY? "bogger"
00:41:26 <GregorR> Oh, missed that entirely :P
00:41:40 <ehird> [["Friends do not let friends use IE6," said Amy Barzdukas, Microsoft's general manager for Internet Explorer.
00:41:41 <ehird> "If you are in my social set and I have been to your house for dinner, you are not using IE6," she said.]]
00:42:46 <ehird> "IE8 has been downloaded roughly 250,000 times since its March release"
00:42:56 <ehird> that's only like 2x the downloads for the haskell platform windows installer
00:44:51 <pikhq> ... Firefox gets more downloads on release day, doesn't it?
00:46:42 <pikhq> GrayGnome`: Needs more monads.
00:46:59 * coppro has never quite gotten monads
00:47:02 <GrayGnome`> I never managed to wrap my head around monads though.
00:47:12 <oerjan> pikhq: it _has_ monads, iirc
00:47:22 <coppro> since I can't find a good source about monads
00:47:32 <coppro> all I know about monads is that the wIkipedia article sucks
00:47:34 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:47:37 <coppro> and that's about as far as I've gotten
00:47:47 <GrayGnome`> Wikipedia finds an amazing way to make everything as complicated as possible.
00:48:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It *has* them, but they use it for hardly anything.
00:49:04 <pikhq> And people don't realise that they're using monad comprehensions.
00:49:04 <GrayGnome`> They were unable to use trigonometry to explain the sidebands in AM waves. They had to use Fourier and Hilbert to explain it.
00:49:38 <GrayGnome`> Though I realize this isn't on topic for an esoteric langs channel :D
00:49:48 <coppro> GrayGnome`: incorrect, it's on topic
00:49:52 <coppro> discussion of programming is off topic
00:49:55 <coppro> GrayGnome`: no, I mean that Wikipedia is simply factually incorrect
00:50:46 <coppro> it appears to claim that monads are key to creating a function with an optional return value
00:52:07 <coppro> my understanding is that's how Haskell uses them; not the general case
00:52:11 <coppro> though I could be wrong
00:52:12 <pikhq> What side effects? Haskell has none.
00:52:32 <ehird> GrayGnome`: you like C# and you think monads are about side effects
00:52:38 <ehird> my list of people to stab has grown a lot today
00:52:49 <GrayGnome`> ehird: That was meant to be a comical introduction.
00:52:51 <pikhq> The IO a that main results in is simply a value that describes side effects.
00:53:04 <GrayGnome`> I've done some coding in Java, and none in C#.
00:53:11 <ehird> GrayGnome`: that's, uhh
00:53:12 <pikhq> And monads are about so much more than merely letting you do IO in a purely functional language.
00:53:13 <ehird> meant to be better?
00:53:31 <GrayGnome`> Monads aren't about side effects, I realize this.
00:53:37 <ehird> Java is worse than C#.
00:53:41 <ehird> Both are horrible.
00:54:47 <coppro> my question is: what is the difference between monads and functional composition?
00:54:57 <ehird> <GrayGnome`> […] Windows.
00:55:04 <ehird> you may not know this, but you are actually dead
00:55:05 <pikhq> coppro: The two are completely different.
00:55:15 <coppro> pikhq: good, explain it to me
00:55:17 <ehird> you are in fact a p-zombie
00:55:24 <pikhq> Now if you had asked about the difference between fmap and functional composition, I could say something.
00:55:24 <GrayGnome`> That's okay, you seem to very alive and aware of the real world :P
00:55:32 <pikhq> Like, say, fmap being a generalisation.
00:55:43 <ehird> coppro: a monad is a type of one argument with functions return::a -> m a and (>>=)::m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b.
00:55:47 <ehird> that obeys some laws.
00:55:56 <ehird> GrayGnome`: philosophical zombie
00:56:03 <pikhq> Where "m" is a monad.
00:56:06 <coppro> ehird: please explain said syntax; that's what I ran into, and it's all Haskell to me
00:56:22 <ehird> coppro: trying to understand monads without learning haskell is uhhh
00:56:24 <pikhq> coppro: (a -> b) is a function from a to b.
00:56:28 <ehird> write some CS papers first.
00:56:33 <ehird> or just learn haskell
00:56:35 <GrayGnome`> Well I've done a lot of hobby coding on SBCL.
00:56:43 <ehird> GrayGnome`: that's a bit better.
00:56:46 <coppro> ehird: monads are, supposedly, a general concept that doesn't need to be used in Haskell
00:56:59 <ehird> but there's no way you have the right frame of mind
00:57:00 <GrayGnome`> I've also done Forth, BF, a bit of Haskell, Python, ...
00:57:07 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, but it's best to learn Haskell. Since Haskell uses them extensively.
00:57:09 <ehird> GrayGnome`: okay, you're not a horrible abomination.
00:57:16 <GrayGnome`> I do a lot of low level coding so I do a lot C work, heh.
00:57:22 <ehird> where did you come from? :P
00:57:25 <coppro> ehird: why can't I have the right frame of mind?
00:57:33 <ehird> coppro: umm, because you don't
00:57:42 <ehird> nobody does unless they're absolute CS geniuses & prodigies
00:57:49 <ehird> (the kind of people who... made haskell)
00:58:07 <ehird> so basically the only path to being able to understand monads is learning haskell
00:58:38 <coppro> it seems to me like it's just passing input from one function to another, really
00:58:43 <pikhq> While you're at it, you'll be able to learn the beauty that is a *real* type system.
00:59:01 <ehird> coppro: no, it's not
00:59:03 <GrayGnome`> It may seem a bit brain dead, but that way you don't have undefined behavior.
00:59:06 <ehird> 'm a' does not contain an a
00:59:09 <ehird> GrayGnome`: plz stop spreading misinformation
00:59:12 <coppro> GrayGnome`: the lack of side effects is not part of this
00:59:24 <GrayGnome`> Oh sorry. I thought this wasn't about monads :P
00:59:39 <ehird> fuck no... marmots?
00:59:47 <pikhq> coppro: Enjoy your M10.
00:59:54 <ehird> here i was thinking you were announcing your abstention from beastiality
01:00:01 <pikhq> And may you soon know the joy that is full-card art lands.
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02:00:31 <ehird> you're an... oklofok.
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02:30:50 <ehird> does vt100 have italics
02:32:58 <ehird> GregorR: just inverting, bold and underline right?
02:33:25 <ehird> I'm writing a markdown2man, and mapping bold to bold (obviously), and italics to ... underline, I guess.
02:33:31 <ehird> Since you can type it _foo_.
02:33:33 <GregorR> IIRC, "bold" is actually "alternative font" or something like that, so technically "alternative font" could be anything :P
02:35:16 * ehird attempts to find a small bsd man pag
02:35:19 <ehird> there surprisingly aren't any...
02:35:33 <ehird> ; man touch | wc -l
02:39:40 <pikhq> " -l Lies. This is equivalent to while true;do;done, rather than being equivalent to ;."
02:43:03 <ehird> pikhq: you mean --lies=true.
02:43:12 <ehird> It's gnuser friendly.
02:43:25 <ehird> After all, the user can just guess it, right?
02:43:30 <ehird> It's not like they'll have to look it up.
02:43:39 <ehird> Therefore, we should make the invocation more verbose.
02:43:59 * ehird wonders whether to pilfer SmartyPants to automatically change "foo" into ``foo'' for th man page.
02:44:03 <ehird> (AKA faggot quotes)
02:44:50 <ehird> after all, you use .Dq in roff
02:47:50 <ehird> Hey, I found an error in a bsd man page.
02:47:56 <ehird> MM The month of the year, from 1 to 12.
02:47:56 <ehird> DD the day of the month, from 1 to 31.
02:47:56 <ehird> hh The hour of the day, from 0 to 23.
02:47:59 <ehird> Spot the odd one out.
02:50:52 * oerjan was looking for something substantial
02:51:35 <ehird> so, I need to put the date somewhere on these files
02:51:47 <ehird> (markdown files for converting to man format)
02:51:49 <ehird> should it be the first line, the last line, or something else?
02:52:36 <ehird> the date appears at the top of man source files and at the bottom of the output
02:52:45 <ehird> I'm thinking the last line, so that when converting it to HTML it looks okay.
03:08:36 <ehird> Now that's a new one.
03:11:30 <ehird> Which would you rather write, http://pastie.org/584723.txt?key=gzcugqrr9szzyfcdzxmsaa or http://pastie.org/584724.txt?key=uziricsdgljqvdnsf07qkw?
03:11:50 <ehird> (Note: If you answer "the former", I will have you institutionalised.)
03:13:09 <ehird> Eh? Eh pikhq? ...GregorR? oerjan?! SOMEONE APPRECIATE MY HARD WORK ;_;
03:13:59 <Pthing> i can't appreciate your hard anything, that is grossly immoral and illegal
03:14:13 <oerjan> the latter looks _distinctly_ non-esoteric. we will have _none_ of that.
03:14:25 <ehird> Pthing: it is a thing
03:14:34 <ehird> albeit not a pthing
03:15:36 <oerjan> and certainly not a pthong
03:15:56 <pikhq> ehird: I prefer the former, because the latter does not exist.
03:16:15 <ehird> pikhq: Nuh-uh; I have rendered it to actual, readable HTML.
03:16:24 <ehird> It's a trivial script to roundtrip that to roff format.
03:16:37 <pikhq> Sorry, there is no pastie #584724 or it has been removed. Why not create a new pastie?
03:16:57 <ehird> your client is stupid.
03:17:16 <pikhq> ? is a valid character in a URL.
03:17:47 <ehird> Yeah, but it's at the end of a damn sentence.
03:17:55 <ehird> And ? on its own at the end almost certainly does jack.
03:18:16 <pikhq> It makes the pastebin cry.
03:18:17 <ehird> And if you've already seen a ?, well, the odds are stacking up here.
03:19:45 <Leonidas> hmm, anyone knows how to implement a thread scheduler?
03:19:47 <ehird> Anyway, my "format" is clearly superior. :P
03:19:55 <ehird> Leonidas: On the hardware or theoretically?
03:20:29 <Leonidas> ehird: well, I've got a language with three commands: Color, Fade and Wait and I want to implement some kind of 'tasks' or 'threads'
03:20:38 <ehird> Leonidas: Use OS threads.
03:20:47 <ehird> We have more than one core nowadays.
03:20:52 <ehird> Leonidas: unless you want them to be timed precisely
03:21:06 <ehird> in which case, uhh, loop { each thread { step one } }
03:21:20 <ehird> unless you want to handle wait
03:21:22 <ehird> in which case like
03:21:45 <Leonidas> ehird: the problem is, that I'm compling down to a language which only supports sequential execution
03:21:57 <ehird> look at my snippet
03:22:04 <ehird> if you want Wait to wait for N steps
03:22:06 <ehird> while running other threads
03:22:37 <ehird> loop { each thread { if (.wait && .i>.max).wait = false; if (.wait) .i++; if (!.wait) step one /* sets .wait=True and .i=0 and .max=stepstowait if Wait */ } }
03:22:41 <Leonidas> ehird: http://ddc.har2009.info:8080/DDCAnimationServer/
03:23:07 <Leonidas> the point is: the 'language' does not support threads, so I have to emulate them
03:23:29 <ehird> it's just a trivial tick scheduler
03:23:40 <ehird> step one instruction in each thread in turn; if a thread wants to idle, just skip it
03:24:00 <pikhq> You can get more complex than that, of course, but that is at least a functional scheduler for threading.
03:24:05 <ehird> and then subtract them
03:24:09 <ehird> to find out how much you've waited already
03:24:17 <ehird> of course this can overstep, but you won't get anything better unless you have a hard real time OS
03:24:48 <Leonidas> ehird: I could divide the Wait calls into two smaller wait calls
03:25:01 <ehird> Leonidas: lemme amend my funct
03:25:31 * Leonidas somehow knew that this is exactly the right channel for this kind of question ^^
03:26:52 <ehird> loop { each thread { if (.wait) { .i += unixmstime() - .last /* add how many ms we've gone since the last update */; .last = .i } if (.wait && .i >= .max) { /* must be >=; we can take a long time on another thread and overstep */ .wait=False; } if (!.wait) { step one /* sets .wait=True and .i=0 and .max=mstowait and .last=current unix time in milliseconds if waiting */ } } }
03:27:03 <ehird> round-robin scheduler that handles msec waits
03:29:22 <ehird> pikhq: did the pastie work
03:29:33 <Leonidas> just reformatted it, will look into it, thanks!
03:30:00 <Leonidas> half past four, exactly the right time to hack on stuff ^^
03:30:21 <ehird> i'd stay up later if I could get to sleep afterwards
03:30:30 <ehird> although i generally sleep after 6 anyway
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04:49:04 <Octalnet> Does anyone know why some BF sources include the @ symbol?
04:49:17 <pikhq> Common debugging symbol.
04:49:35 <pikhq> Makes supporting Brainfuck interpreters dumb a section of the tape.
04:50:23 <pikhq> Yeah, but nobody else.
04:53:37 <Octalnet> pikhq: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:02 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:43 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:51 <pikhq> Octalnet: Eh. Brainfuck's not hard. ;)
04:55:57 <oklofok> especially balanced loop brainfuck
04:56:12 <Octalnet> I've never heard of unbalanced loops BF.
04:56:51 <Octalnet> Anyone know of a good extension of BF? Not a crappy script kiddy project.
04:57:12 <pikhq> Octalnet: An unbalanced loop in Brainfuck is where the memory address changes over the loop execution.
04:57:21 <pikhq> [>] is the trivial example.
04:57:53 <pikhq> FYB? *FYB*? I see your FYB and raise you a PEBBLE (which I totally don't have a host for, and I haven't touched in ages!)
04:58:15 <Octalnet> No, really. What's the best BF extension?
04:58:26 <Octalnet> Something with a few more useful operators?
04:58:42 <GregorR> Octalnet: Why would you add operations? It's already T.C.
04:58:48 <pikhq> If I end up touching PEBBLE, I'll be making the vaporware that is PEBBLE 2 into reality. By making a proper compiler, rather than some stupid Tcl metaprogramming stuff.
04:58:58 <pikhq> Octalnet: What you want is a macro language.
04:59:07 <oklofok> Octalnet: I've never heard of unbalanced loops BF. <<< it just means at least one [] contains a different amount of >'s than <'s
04:59:30 <Octalnet> I thought by unbalanced loop, you meant a [ with no ].
04:59:36 <oklofok> also that was said already, sorry.
04:59:37 <Octalnet> I thought something was a little odd there.
04:59:40 <pikhq> GregorR: Yes, I know you do CPP macros for Brainfuck. You're not everyone.
04:59:58 <GregorR> pikhq: EXCUSE ME I TOTALLY AM EVERYONE.
05:00:29 <pikhq> Now, where was that...
05:00:32 <Octalnet> I completely believe it's TC, but how do you implement conditional branches?
05:00:40 <oerjan> GregorR is a panegoist
05:00:54 <GregorR> oerjan: That's a panegoMANIAC to you.
05:01:02 <oklofok> Octalnet: if you don't know, you're lucky: you get the solve the puzzle yourself.
05:01:13 <GregorR> I think I agree with oklofok actually.
05:01:23 <pikhq> Octalnet: What, like if? I will give you a hint: it can be done in about 20 characters.
05:02:20 <pikhq> GregorR: BTW, MBF is awful. :P
05:02:27 <pikhq> Clever, but awful.
05:03:02 <Octalnet> But in my idea of a BF conditional, you can compute == and != only.
05:03:03 <GregorR> BTW, if you need a host for PEBBLE, codu.org/projects is always available.
05:03:24 <oklofok> Octalnet: just have a conditional on 0 or not zero
05:03:33 <pikhq> GregorR: I'll let you know if I bother doing any work on it again.
05:03:56 <oklofok> you should separate whatever logic (comparisons etc) from that
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05:07:36 <Octalnet> Was someone about to say something to me?
05:08:01 <oklofok> Octalnet: do you always apologize for joining a channel
05:08:31 <oerjan> oklofok: it's horribly rude, everyone knows we want to be left alone
05:08:33 <oklofok> Octalnet: did you see my "... separate ..." message?
05:09:16 <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:09:17 <oklofok> this must be the day of separation
05:09:30 <oklofok> left alone, ... separate ..., and i'm reading about separation axioms
05:09:37 <GregorR> `addquote <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:09:42 <oklofok> Octalnet: don't worry, i do it all the time, irl
05:09:45 <HackEgo> 69|<Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:10:07 <Octalnet> oklofok: Oh, I'm sorry for that.
05:10:50 <Octalnet> Alright. I was asking about conditional branching. How would you go about this?
05:10:58 <oklofok> so umm i don't know if you saw my messages, so i'll repaste them
05:11:00 <oklofok> oklofok: Octalnet: just have a conditional on 0 or not zero
05:11:01 <oklofok> oklofok: you should separate whatever logic (comparisons etc) from that
05:11:28 <Octalnet> I wasn't even thinking about that.
05:11:40 <oklofok> then what exactly were you thinking about
05:11:41 <Octalnet> The pair of [ ] are conditionals by nature.
05:12:25 <Octalnet> They test whether or not a cell is 0.
05:12:35 <oklofok> well yes, obviously they are how you implement conditionals
05:12:41 <Octalnet> So, they're like boolean conditionals.
05:13:03 <Octalnet> Let me go try to work some programs out.
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05:15:47 <Octalnet> Are there any other exceptionally worthwhile turing-complete esolangs out there?
05:16:34 <Octalnet> I love the challenges of turing tarpits.
05:17:14 <Octalnet> I tried learning Whirl, but the functions are arbitrary and hard to remember the order of on the function wheel.
05:17:40 <oklofok> do you want imperative languages
05:18:24 <Octalnet> I tried to learn whitespace, which I believe has to be one of the funniest original esolang I've seen.
05:18:45 <Octalnet> But it's not well-documented enough (from what I could tell) to learn it practicaly.
05:18:52 <oklofok> it is rather funny, yes. but the joys of syntax are finite
05:19:23 <Octalnet> I really enjoy the minimalistic turing tarpits.
05:19:35 <Octalnet> I still don't understand how P" works.
05:20:04 <pikhq> It's Brainfuck without the , or the .
05:21:43 <Octalnet> What good is it if you can't output at the very least?
05:22:50 <pikhq> It's only good for showing that a structured programming language can be Turing complete without goto.
05:23:07 <pikhq> (from what I gather, that was actually an issue when it was published)
05:24:39 <oklofok> Octalnet: mathematicians don't care about actual output, just read the state of the machine after halt
05:24:54 <oklofok> and P'' is a mathematical construct more than it's an esolang
05:25:10 <pikhq> It's theoretical discussion, not programming discussion.
05:25:19 <pikhq> That the two have a large overlap is mere coincidence.
05:25:39 <pikhq> (effing math, with its "All else is just a subfield" :P)
05:26:01 <Octalnet> So, does anyone know of a worthwhile esolang?
05:26:34 <pikhq> Stack-based object-oriented programming language.
05:27:11 <pikhq> GregorR: Esoteric language.
05:27:30 <Octalnet> You know what I really hate and unfortunately Whitespace was forced to use?
05:28:11 <Octalnet> Dual-character commands with arbitrary effects unrelated to the standalone commands.
05:28:33 <Octalnet> This one language I just found...
05:29:33 <Octalnet> & (multiplication), @ (output), and &@ is a clear-screen command.
05:29:55 <Octalnet> It leads to senseless memorization of combinations.
05:32:03 <oklofok> yeah, totally unlike learning say /$ for clear-screen :)
05:38:07 <oklofok> granted, it is somewhat different
05:42:34 <Octalnet> I just realized that you're either Glass' creator, or a scandalous imposter.
05:43:27 <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
05:46:28 <Octalnet> Wow, Glass seems kind of complex.
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06:02:47 <Octalnet> >++++[<++++++++>-]>++++++++[>++++<-]>>++>>>+>>>+<<<<<<<<<<[-[->+<]>[-<+>>>.<<]>>>[[->++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<[->+<]+>[->++++++++++<<+>]>.[-]>]]+<<<[-[->+<]+>[-<+>>>-[->+<]++>[-<->]<<<]<<<<]++++++++++.+++.[-]<]+++++
06:03:44 <Octalnet> It's not mine, just to let you guys know.
06:03:53 <Octalnet> I found it and dubbed it amazing.
06:04:54 <Octalnet> The source code is even in the shape of a Serpinski triangle.
06:05:00 <Octalnet> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf
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06:09:46 <Octalnet> Wow. This has to be the largest and most complex BF program I've seen.
06:09:48 <Octalnet> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/css-brainfuck.bf
06:11:16 <coppro> that program is illegal in some countries
06:11:40 <Octalnet> It decodes the 'illegal number', right?
06:14:09 <coppro> no, that decrypts them
06:15:41 <Octalnet> Cool, I just found an SMC version of BF.
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06:24:39 <Octalnet> What's the best BF derivatives?
06:24:52 <Octalnet> *Which are the best BF derivatives?
06:24:54 <GregorR> !bf >++++[<++++++++>-]>++++++++[>++++<-]>>++>>>+>>>+<<<<<<<<<<[-[->+<]>[-<+>>>.<<]>>>[[->++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<[->+<]+>[->++++++++++<<+>]>.[-]>]]+<<<[-[->+<]+>[-<+>>>-[->+<]++>[-<->]<<<]<<<<]++++++++++.+++.[-]<]+++++
06:26:03 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>++++.>++.+++.-------.<.<-------.++++.>.>-----------.>-.<+.+.<+.-----------------------.
06:26:38 <Octalnet> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>++++.>++.+++.-------.<.<-------.++++.>.>-----------.>-.<+.+.<+.-----------------------.
06:26:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:27:06 <oklofok> !bf_txtgen okokokokokokokoko
06:27:08 <EgoBot> 95 +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>---.>+.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.<.>.>.<.>.<.>.>-. [573]
06:27:28 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>---.>+.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.<.>.>.<.>.<.>.>-.
06:29:20 <EgoBot> 113 ++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>>----.<+.++++++++++++.>.<<----.>------.++++++++.<---.>.+++++.>+.>--. [884]
06:29:23 <GregorR> No, bf_txtgen uses a genetic algorithm.
06:29:35 <GregorR> oklofok's was only fast because it was trivially simple.
06:29:45 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++<<-]>+.>---.>[.<.>]
06:30:04 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++<<-]>+.>---.<[.<.>]
06:30:07 <GregorR> The failure was in you writing !bf_tExtgen >_>
06:30:09 <Octalnet> Mine didn't work because I had "textgen" in lieu of "txtgen"
06:30:39 <Octalnet> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>>----.<+.++++++++++++.>.<<----.>------.++++++++.<---.>.+++++.>+.>--.
06:30:50 <oklofok> what does EgoBot do with too long output
06:31:18 <GregorR> The main reason for using that method is to bother ehird.
06:31:42 <GregorR> Octalnet: Time limits, memory limits, limits limits limits.
06:31:50 <GregorR> If you want to kill a bot,
06:32:37 <GregorR> (Mind you, HackEgo actually has more severe restrictions, it just feels more hackable because you can write to the filesystem on HackEgo :P )
06:32:43 <Octalnet> I guess it doesn't handle input.
06:34:08 <Octalnet> What's the best BF ripoff out there?
06:34:50 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives
06:36:12 <Octalnet> I'm looking at that list right now already.
06:36:33 <Octalnet> I wanted to know y'all's opinion before I thumb through 50 wiki pages.
06:37:23 <GregorR> Except that FYB is awesome! AND I'M TOTALLY NOT BIASED
06:39:58 <Octalnet> I can't find it in any of the Esolang repos.
06:40:18 <Octalnet> That was the code battle thing.
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07:11:29 <Octalnet> I just found a working BF program whose source is 2.1mb in size.
07:12:34 -!- Octalnet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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07:14:37 <Octalnet> Anyways, I just found a working BF program whose source is 2.1mb in size.
07:15:57 * coppro just had a terrible, terrible, terrible idea
07:16:05 <coppro> it transcends terribility
07:16:54 <coppro> hmm... /me now wants to make a BF variant that can be compiled to relatively speedy machine code
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07:17:18 <coppro> (without an optimizer)
07:18:53 <Octalnet> You know what I was thinking about? It's completely pointless, but I can recreate BF to have only 5 commands.
07:19:28 <coppro> +->< (some conditional?)
07:19:59 <Octalnet> You'd have a command to invert the 'command state', then use a single command for </>, +/-, [/], and ./,
07:20:17 <Octalnet> So basically, based on what state the 'command state' is in, that command will be executed.
07:20:29 <Octalnet> It's completely pointless, like I said.
07:21:24 <coppro> Octalnet: you could go one better and merge [] into |, also based off command state
07:23:38 <Octalnet> x could be the state changer, = could be +/=, _ could be ./, , and | could be [/]
07:25:37 <EgoBot> 70 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>+.>+. [202]
07:27:50 <Octalnet> =========|>========>===========>=====>=x>>>>=|x>_>==_=======__===_==_>=_
07:29:07 <Octalnet> But it's completely pointless.
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09:34:54 <AnMaster> anyone know a good calendar app for linux? Being able to sync with phone over bluetooth is a must
09:37:23 <fizzie> You *are* obsessed with time and date, it seems. :p
09:38:33 <fizzie> Evolution would probably be a bit overkill.
09:38:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and the sync setting in evolution only seems to want to sync to palm pilots
09:39:16 <AnMaster> or at least I couldn't find a way to sync over the standard syncml thingy that my phone supports
09:42:22 <fizzie> On another channel I think someone used OpenSync to speak to their phone; that thing has so many plugins one would assume that any calendar software can be used with it.
09:42:34 <fizzie> I don't think it's a very polished piece of software, though.
09:43:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I tried opensync, it is able to dump contacts and calendar from the phone, but it wasn't able to sync contacts with thunderbird at least
09:44:12 <fizzie> It does have a mozilla-sync plugin, which claims to do Thunderbird contacts and Lightning/Sunbird calendar events. No first-hand experiences here, though.
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09:46:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, someone mentioned "sunbird" on another channel, any experience with it?
09:47:16 <fizzie> Well, I tried it back when it was very pre-alpha, and (gasp!) it was quite buggy.
09:47:49 <fizzie> Also tried Lightning, which I guess is pretty much the Sunbird code except mangled into a Thunderbird extension.
09:48:22 <AnMaster> no need to have it in thunderbird
09:48:23 <fizzie> But this was some years (not many, but more than one) ago, it's likely they have fixed at least some of the bugs.
09:51:19 <fizzie> The Sunbird resembled the OS X "iCal" a bit; nothing too fancy, but it did the basics. I have no clue about the syncability; back then it did the standard ical-over-webdav thing, didn't look for phone-syncing.
09:52:07 <fizzie> OS X managed to sync events with the really crappy calendar in the N-Gage, though. I don't even know what sort of protocol the phone uses.
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh right, now I remember; it actually worked by sending some sort of Symbian app to the phone.
09:54:01 <fizzie> Though it seems that there's also a Nokia-provided SyncML app for it too. Sort of a moot point, I don't have bluetooth in anything else than the iBook.
09:55:13 <fizzie> There still seems to be an "iSync Config" app in the phone, haven't used it in ages.
09:56:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems opensync supports sunbird
09:56:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, likely syncml in that phone
09:57:14 <fizzie> What I got from the interweb is that there's no built-in SyncML in the phone, but on the driver CD that comes with it there's a syncml-speaking separate app for it.
09:57:45 <fizzie> The iSync program might use something completely proprietary, though.
10:07:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, about synergy, I find a delay setting of 200 works quite well
10:08:05 <AnMaster> it is enough to be able to drag borders of maximised apps, yet not enough to be annoyingly slow
10:09:42 <fizzie> What did you do with the two-mice thing?
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10:23:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, was two keyboard as well originally, gave up on that too
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12:29:55 <AnMaster> btw, I found a Betamax cassette in a box in the attic, what on earth should I do with it...
12:32:44 <M0ny> i didn't know this kind of cassette existed...
12:41:45 <AnMaster> M0ny, well, they are completely obsolete
12:41:55 <AnMaster> I don't have any way to play it
12:42:07 <M0ny> i know, i'm reading the wikipedia page
12:42:20 <AnMaster> M0ny, also it is unmarked, could be blank, could be something on it
12:43:03 <M0ny> there isn't any old stuff shop in your city ?
12:43:59 <M0ny> or maybe a brocante
12:44:07 <AnMaster> M0ny, you mean like for 1800 century tables and so on?
12:44:19 <AnMaster> doubt that shop would be interested in this
12:44:51 <M0ny> i found some NES games in a brocante some weeks ago
12:45:13 <AnMaster> No definitions of brocante were found in English
12:45:27 <M0ny> i don't know the word in english, google said that is the same word
12:45:34 <AnMaster> "Definitions of brocante on the Web in French:"
12:45:55 <AnMaster> M0ny, google saying same word can also mean "google has no clue"
12:46:04 <AnMaster> in fact, most of the time it is like that
12:46:43 <M0ny> brocante = secondhand market
12:47:35 <Sneezle> try google "brocante translation" is case of foreign words...
12:50:53 <AnMaster> there are some extremely funny words in English (to a Swede that is)
12:51:10 <AnMaster> that is originally a Swedish word, but with dots dropped
12:51:19 <AnMaster> making it 1) sound completely different 2) look silly
12:51:35 <AnMaster> if you don't know this word, look it up
12:51:49 <AnMaster> when you done that I will provide a literal translation of the Swedish original
12:52:00 <AnMaster> (which would work quite well in English)
12:53:55 <M0ny> what are you waiting for ?
12:53:56 <AnMaster> looked it up/know the meaning?
12:54:17 <AnMaster> translating it literally first would spoil the effect
12:54:19 <Sneezle> Smorgasbord is a meal with a variety of hot and cold savoury dishes
12:55:00 <AnMaster> I can't see why English couldn't use that instead. Which is what it means
12:55:36 <M0ny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%B6rg%C3%A5sbord :D
12:56:00 <AnMaster> M0ny, yep. usually English spelling is without the dots though
12:56:23 <Sneezle> It is a buffet style table in a restaurant, or at home served at a holiday, prepared with many small dishes
12:56:26 <AnMaster> and for Swedish, åäö are NOT variants of aao, but rather separate letters
12:56:46 <AnMaster> have very different sound compared to and o as well
12:56:47 <Sneezle> it seems, the word is used in spanish as well
12:57:59 <Sneezle> modern usage: This valley is just one long smorgasbord :)
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12:58:54 <M0ny> "smorgasbord" maybe a cool esolang name too :)
12:59:29 <AnMaster> Sneezle, I don't understand what it would mean in that context
13:00:23 <Sneezle> it's from http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/sm/smorgasbord.html -- i don't get the meaning as well, but "this valley is just...(whatever)" sounds like "this is boring"
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14:38:35 <oerjan> `addquote <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
14:38:36 <HackEgo> 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
14:45:43 <oerjan> <Octalnet> You'd have a command to invert the 'command state', then use a single command for </>, +/-, [/], and ./,
14:46:21 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that would work for [/]
14:47:20 <oerjan> there will no longer be any way to nest loops
14:47:56 <oerjan> hm, well, unless invertion is static
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15:45:05 <fizzie> There's black toilet paper in this hotel -- now *that's* fancy.
15:45:39 <oerjan> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
15:48:02 <fizzie> I'd provide some photographical evidence, but my phone hasn't heard of this thing called "upload".
15:49:44 <GregorR> It's actually just covered in charcoal, and leaves your rear the same way.
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15:50:22 <fizzie> Now you scared him off.
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16:47:18 <AnMaster> do you have any bluetooth on it?
16:47:30 <AnMaster> and what about a computer with bluetooth?
16:50:13 -!- ehird has joined.
16:52:08 <ehird> tuomov continues to push the boundaries of hilarious idiocy
16:52:14 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ → "?"
16:52:18 <ehird> <div class="use_a_textmode_browser">
16:52:27 <ehird> .use_a_textmode_browser {
16:52:27 <ehird> visibility: hidden;
16:52:28 <ehird> .use_a_textmode_browser:before {
16:52:28 <ehird> visibility: visible;
16:52:34 <ehird> (despite having styles before it)
16:55:27 <ehird> the ultimate irony is
16:55:35 <pikhq> What kind of an idiot forces you to use a text-mode browser, anyways?
16:55:41 <ehird> he has a blog post ranting about the freetype fascists forcing "blurry" (anti-aliased) fonts on everyone
16:55:42 <pikhq> Oh, right. Tuomov.
16:55:47 <ehird> and wants THE CHOICE
16:55:53 <ehird> ...............................................
16:56:00 <pikhq> ... Isn't Freetype configurable?
16:56:02 <ehird> then forces you to use a text mode browser.
16:56:05 <ehird> NOT EVEN TEXT MODE
16:56:10 <ehird> just non-CSS supporting
16:56:14 <ehird> netscape 1? Youbetcha.
16:56:35 <ehird> pikhq: yes, it is; he doesn't like the hinting or something
16:56:40 <ehird> no, he just refuses to edit the xml config
16:57:04 <pikhq> "I want the choice, but I can't be arsed to actually edit the config file"?
16:57:16 <ehird> It has angle brackets. It is unacceptable.
16:57:29 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b//archives/2006/03/17/T20_15_31/
16:57:29 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b/archives/2008/03/20/T13_47_17/
16:57:35 <ehird> ↑ bask in the stupidity
16:57:38 <pikhq> I could understand being upset about it being an XML config, but... Come on.
16:57:48 <ehird> Note: Replace "fascist" with "person I dislike".
16:57:52 <pikhq> That doesn't mean that Freetype is forcing you to use anti-aliasing.
16:58:14 <ehird> oklopol: lets you add content and style it before an element
16:58:21 <ehird> although no HTML or anything
16:58:24 <ehird> so it's mostly useless
16:58:25 <ehird> but you can do things lik
16:58:30 <ehird> if you want to turn a <ul> menu into
16:58:32 <ehird> item / item / item
16:58:41 <ehird> .item:after { content: ' / ' }
16:58:45 <ehird> .item:last:after { content: '' }
16:59:40 <ehird> oklopol: basically he hides the element then puts ? before it
16:59:43 <pikhq> I find it amusing that he complains about using serif fonts, yet his CSS defaults to a serif font.
16:59:45 <ehird> == replacing the element with ?
16:59:57 <oklopol> ehird: i realize what, but how would you get to see the content?
17:00:06 <oklopol> i don't know what textmode is
17:00:15 <ehird> oklopol: terminal, console; but
17:00:20 <ehird> it just needs to be a browser that doesn't do CSS
17:00:24 <ehird> or has it disabled
17:00:27 <ehird> he incorrectly equates these
17:00:33 <ehird> elinks is terminal-based and does CSS
17:00:36 <ehird> netscape 1 is graphical and doesn't
17:00:42 <oklopol> use_a_textmode_browser is a hint for the browser...er
17:01:03 <ehird> but he doesn't care, I imagine.
17:01:06 <oklopol> i'm a bit slow at this stuff
17:01:06 <ehird> just wants you to fuck off.
17:01:15 <ehird> pikhq: I also like how in one of his posts he praises the beautiful beautiful Helvetica for screen... without antialiasing.
17:01:20 <ehird> IT WAS DESIGNED AS A SMOOTH PRINT FONT.
17:02:26 <oklopol> but umm so basically he's saying people should read webpages in source form? or does he actually *mean* "without css"?
17:02:40 <ehird> oklopol: terminal browsers such as w3m
17:02:52 <pikhq> oklopol: He means "text mode", and assumes that all text mode browsers don't have CSS.
17:02:56 <ehird> they won't parse the CSS STYLESHEET
17:03:02 <ehird> and thus won't apply the no-display
17:03:04 <ehird> thus being able to see it
17:03:11 <ehird> however, graphical browsers can disable CSS
17:03:14 <ehird> and older graphical ones don't do it
17:03:18 <ehird> and some terminal ones like elinks DO do css
17:03:22 <oklopol> i don't know what textmode is, i'm asking whether it's just "ignore css", or whether it's "just show the source as it is"
17:03:31 <ehird> TEXT MODE = TERMINAL/CONSOLE YOU RETARD
17:03:33 <ehird> i already told you that
17:03:34 <pikhq> oklopol: Text mode = TERMINAL APPLICATION
17:04:05 <ehird> wtf man pages use .Nm to refer to their name instead of just including it
17:04:12 <oklopol> i don't see how that has to do with whether css applies, and i don't see how that has to do with whether the source is parsed either
17:04:21 <ehird> oklopol: It doesn't.
17:04:26 <ehird> Most terminal browsers
17:04:33 <ehird> Most graphical browsers
17:04:39 <ehird> He is incorrectly equating them.
17:05:37 <oklopol> i get that, i was just asking whether terminal browsers usually parse the source, or do they just show it, because i have absolutely no idea whether anyone uses them.
17:05:49 <oklopol> but i guess they do parse it, and show it in some slightly more sensible form
17:05:52 <ehird> if they just show the source
17:05:54 <ehird> they're not a browser
17:06:13 <pikhq> They are like normal web browsers, except they use curses instead of a GUI library.
17:06:19 <oklopol> well they could parse the essential stuff like hyperlinks
17:06:26 <ehird> <oklopol> WHAT'S CURSES
17:06:48 <oklopol> i have a clue what curses is
17:06:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Okay, what exactly makes most sense for a web browser to do?
17:07:21 <pikhq> Then what makes most sense for a *terminal* web browser to do?
17:07:38 <oklopol> i don't see why that makes the question stupid
17:07:58 <pikhq> "Just showing it" is curl(1) or wget(1).
17:08:06 <pikhq> ... Which makes it an HTTP client, not a web browser.
17:08:09 <oklopol> sure, but you could parse it a little.
17:08:20 <pikhq> So, your question was "Is the web browser a web browser or an HTTP client"?
17:08:45 <oklopol> well it could've parsed hyperlinks, and ignored some of the font etc tags
17:09:02 <pikhq> What the hell sort of use would that be?
17:09:13 <oklopol> eh, i'd probably prefer it
17:09:44 <pikhq> You'd prefer that over a normal web browser that *happens* to be using curses?
17:10:48 <oklopol> you seem to have misunderstood me, i'd probably prefer it over a normal web browser
17:11:39 <pikhq> ... You are a masochist.
17:11:42 <oklopol> losing all style information because of ehird was the best thing that ever happened to my browsing experience
17:11:56 <ehird> nuh uh, no style information was lost
17:11:58 <ehird> just twiddled a bit
17:12:01 <ehird> it still has layout
17:12:14 <oklopol> layout i might miss somewhat
17:12:28 <pikhq> Conkeror was the best thing to happen to my browsing experience.
17:12:31 <ehird> curses is evil anyway
17:13:12 * ehird kills pikhq with good mouse interfaces
17:13:33 <pikhq> I prefer good keyboard interfaces over bad mouse interfaces, mmkay?
17:14:11 <oklopol> anyway you people really shouldn't treat me as a nerd, much better to just assume i know nothing that doesn't have mathematical significance
17:14:38 <ehird> pikhq: So don't use bad mouse interfaces.
17:14:39 <oklopol> i mean i do know some stuff, but that's the better approximation out of 0%/100%
17:14:40 * pikhq shoves some UNIX manuals down oklopol's throat
17:14:46 <ehird> btw, conkeror is not a good keyboard interface.
17:15:11 <oklopol> unix is a theoretically insignificant piece of shit
17:15:14 <pikhq> ehird: It's not a discoverable keyboard interface, you mean.
17:15:27 <ehird> well you are right really
17:15:36 <ehird> plan 9 takes some unix stuff and makes it all fluffy and theoretical
17:15:42 <ehird> it's quite elegant
17:16:39 <pikhq> oklopol: UNIX is good to know because it describes how everything works right now. Not because it's high-minded, elegant theory, but because it's pretty much the LCD of commonly used OSes.
17:16:45 <oklopol> i've heard of plan 9 about a trillion times, never even bothered to google it, some kinda cool new os, and something about a murderer... or was the murder about something else, or was it another crime..? :P
17:16:54 <ehird> pikhq: he doesn't care
17:16:59 <ehird> oklopol: it's not new
17:17:12 <ehird> oklopol: dev started in 80s, released 92
17:17:15 <ehird> open source nowadays
17:17:17 <ehird> oklopol: same people as unix
17:17:21 <ehird> official successor
17:17:29 <ehird> oklopol: basically, "everything is a file", and files aren't physical
17:17:39 <ehird> the filesystem is just a namespace of namespaces and entities
17:17:42 <oklopol> pikhq: but i'm not really a nerd, i do theoretical CS and mathematics, and i'm only interested in the theory.
17:17:51 <oklopol> not only interested in that, but mostly interested in that
17:18:05 <ehird> oklopol: all the windows have a bunch of files, for instance
17:18:06 <pikhq> By "same people", yes, he means the exact same people.
17:18:14 <ehird> you can connect to another server by mounting its remote filesystem
17:18:19 <ehird> and other more wacky stuff
17:18:23 <oklopol> i'm somewhat interested in what's happening in the nerd world, but not *that* much more than i'm interested in the pop music scene
17:18:26 <ehird> like a filesystem of fibonacci numbers or something
17:18:37 <ehird> oklopol: it's not really popular at all
17:18:47 <ehird> it's on the lunatic fringe of the semi-enlightened :P
17:18:53 <ehird> although it runs on an ibm supercomputer.
17:19:15 <ehird> oklopol: oh, and you can distribute computation across N machines trivially
17:19:15 <oklopol> well okay that sounds like what unix tried to be
17:19:21 <ehird> not really, unix tried to work
17:19:27 <ehird> but it turned out to be simpler to do a lot of things with files
17:19:33 <ehird> plan 9 just took that principle and turned it to 11
17:19:44 <oklopol> same philosophy, different goal, maybe?
17:19:58 <ehird> oklopol: but it's very pure
17:20:07 <ehird> not really any compromises to practicality, though it's that too
17:20:14 <pikhq> It's basically UNIX without the hacks.
17:20:20 <ehird> oklopol: the ui is cool too
17:20:27 <ehird> it blends text windows and graphical windows into one
17:20:29 <pikhq> And, of course, designed a couple decades later.
17:20:35 <ehird> you can write text anywhere and also put graphics anywhere
17:20:37 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol: oh, and you can distribute computation across N machines trivially <<< i'd love to hear more about this
17:20:45 <ehird> oklopol: it's pretty much what it says
17:20:53 <ehird> not much too it; I'm not sure about the specifics
17:20:55 <pikhq> oklopol: Mount the other computers.
17:21:02 <ehird> that's the filesystem
17:21:11 <ehird> i wish people would stop guessing without noting that it's a guess
17:21:32 <oklopol> ehird: something like "split process_id machine1 machine2 ... machineN"? :P
17:21:42 <ehird> it's more sophisticated than that
17:21:45 <ehird> and not so... hacky
17:21:52 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, the UI actually makes really good use of the mouse
17:21:59 <ehird> and is theoretically nice
17:22:02 <ehird> also, they invented UTF-8 for it
17:22:23 <oklopol> because you couldn't actually manipulate "parts of the computation", just actually do the split
17:22:31 <oklopol> and if you needed something else, you'd need a new prog
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17:23:05 <ehird> oklopol: you'd prolly be able to use plan 9 as your main os, it even has a sort of okay browser or two
17:23:14 <ehird> and there's a python port, dunno about ghc
17:23:30 <ehird> well it can run any posix-esque program
17:23:33 <ehird> but that doesn't fit in very well
17:24:25 <oklopol> i need irc and a text editor, and as many programming languages as possible, although i only need either python of haskell for daily use (yes, i've gotten myself to use it every now and then! :P)
17:24:57 <ehird> oklopol: there's an irc client for plan 9; filesytem-based
17:25:09 <pikhq> Think: UNIX turned to 11. Why *wouldn't* they have a text editor? ;)
17:25:11 <oklopol> also there's the fact i need stuff like gcd and factorials daily, and J is simply faster to use for that than writing the func every time, or importing it, 1 character versus ~10
17:25:12 <ehird> you can use acme (basically a graphical terminal with editor; it's great) as a UI for it
17:25:31 <oklopol> also of course i need a browser... or a http client
17:25:36 <ehird> oklopol: text editor you can use acme (the actual editing part is very bare-bones)
17:25:42 <ehird> oklopol: there are a few barebones browsers
17:25:52 <ehird> they won't be able to run javascripty stuff like gmail
17:25:58 <ehird> but they'll prolly display wikipedia okay
17:26:39 <oklopol> i would say i don't need javascript, but probably i'd even miss flash.
17:26:56 <ehird> oklopol: why, for youtube?
17:27:00 <ehird> WHO WANTS YOUTUBE!
17:27:08 <ehird> ... but you could probably make a lil script to download youtubers.
17:27:35 <ehird> if you use an acme-based web browser you could just name it youtube and add 'Youtube' to the toolbar
17:27:40 <ehird> then middle click on a youtube page
17:27:43 <ehird> wouldn't solve flash gameys though
17:27:49 <oklopol> also flash games :\ i mean i'm not that interested in them, i but i do play them, i don't wanna be an anmaster.
17:28:00 <oklopol> "i can't because i use a lesser OS and can't do flash"
17:28:02 <ehird> oklopol: you could use the standalone player via the posix emulation layer
17:28:11 <ehird> oklopol: then make a cmd that downloads the relevant flash and opens it
17:28:56 <ehird> http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xkcd.png
17:29:05 <oklopol> ehird: i'm pretty sure i could just have a windows machine for the occasional needs
17:29:19 <ehird> oklopol: oh if you have another then you could just vnc in
17:29:25 <ehird> have the other machine as a lil plan 9 window
17:30:35 <oklopol> anyway what i might actually want to try is have like this tiny os, just http, irc, text edit, really fast boot, and persistency
17:30:46 <ehird> oklopol: plan 9 boots in like seconds
17:30:58 <ehird> persistency is basically there because everything uses files
17:31:06 <ehird> so it's more transparent than your typical windows/unix saving affair
17:31:18 <oklopol> well i mean like, shutting down doesn't actually do anything
17:31:24 <oklopol> you'll start where you left off
17:31:33 <oklopol> i guess that's what you mean as well, with persistency
17:31:36 <ehird> alas plan 9 isn't totally that, but
17:31:41 <ehird> by convention it's quite similar
17:31:52 <ehird> first, files are really ingrained
17:31:59 <ehird> so it's not like you have much stuff bobbing about memory
17:32:25 <ehird> oklopol: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png ;; you'll probably like the font
17:32:28 <oklopol> yeah, but i'd love to have an os that doesn't make a distinction, because even the slightest deviance from it makes it a necessary thing for me to consider... but yeah i could live with that
17:32:41 <ehird> well yeah ehirdOS isn't gonna have that distinction
17:34:18 <ehird> oklopol: plan 9's filesystem is nicely unhierarchical
17:34:26 <ehird> for instance, /bin isn't just stuff actually in the system bin
17:34:38 <ehird> it is /386/bin (on an x86 machine)
17:34:41 <ehird> and /usr/you/386/bin
17:34:48 <oklopol> just links, and garbage collection?
17:34:49 <ehird> bunch of unions and bindings and everything
17:34:53 <ehird> oklopol: well no not gc :D
17:35:04 <ehird> but not much of an emphasis on directories physically being where files are
17:35:08 <oklopol> then there must be some kinda hierarchy... i mean assuming the basic idea is the same
17:35:27 <ehird> at the end of a day
17:35:30 <ehird> a file's probably somewhere
17:35:34 <ehird> but since you can bind it to any namespace
17:36:19 <oklopol> without gc, i'm pretty sure i need to know what the hierarchy is... but i guess i might be wrong on this one, should see it before judging it.
17:36:37 <oklopol> i mean at least for deleting
17:36:50 <ehird> yeah no that isn't a problem at all
17:37:23 <ehird> oklopol: oh and as seen in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png taking a screenshot of the window is simply converting /dev/window to a png
17:37:28 <ehird> /dev/screen for... the screen
17:37:42 <ehird> obvious stuff, but cool
17:37:58 <ehird> (/dev/window being another name for like the actual path to the current window)
17:39:40 <oklopol> anyway i think i should do some stuff now
17:39:42 <ehird> png isn't exactly suited to blitting to a display :P
17:40:02 <oklopol> have to increase my knowledge about the theorical aspects of computing
17:43:38 <oklopol> my leaving is a slow, gradual process
17:43:54 <oklopol> especially when i leave to another window, leaving this one open
17:50:55 <AnMaster> quick, lets discuss something oklopol is interested in
17:51:39 <AnMaster> ehird, synergy is cool and such, but often I forget to move the mouse between the monitors
17:51:52 <AnMaster> so clearly eye tracking would be cool for selecting which screen should have the focus
17:52:03 <ehird> Uhh, you can't type in windows that you haven't clicked.
17:52:13 <ehird> Why should it be different for ones on another computer?
17:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well indeed, but it is active, just on the wrong computer
17:52:24 <AnMaster> and I forget that computer isn't the active one
17:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: write a script
17:53:01 <ehird> AnMaster: report to the other computer when a window is focused, and listen to the other; when it is informed of this, it defocuses every window
17:53:08 <ehird> (or just focuses the desktop, same thing really)
17:53:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't notice the colour of the window border being "defocus" most of the time...
17:53:54 <oklopol> ehird: "back why" was indeed kind of a weird guess, as it isn't english :D
17:53:59 <AnMaster> since synergy already does that it seems
17:54:06 <AnMaster> but a full screen terminal window
17:54:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you would, though
17:54:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also it doesn't defocus properly for virtualbox in seamless mode
17:54:26 <oklopol> and i was actually going to say fu, then find another meaning for it, but i guess i forgot the latter part
17:54:27 <ehird> e.g. Konsole, when defocuses
17:54:32 <ehird> changes the cursor to []
17:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes true. but what if I'm using some ncurses app hiding the cursor
17:55:08 <ehird> anyway, if you don't notice that a window's not focused, you could make the same mistake on one screen
17:55:15 <ehird> synergy adds nothing
17:55:19 <ehird> AnMaster: title bar
17:55:32 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, question: how better is the trackpoint than the touchpad?
17:55:43 <AnMaster> ehird, on one screen I usually don't, because a window doesn't defocus automatically like that. I'm not used to that
17:55:50 <ehird> saw an ibm thinkpad yesterday as well as some dells with touchpads. was a bit slow on the thinkpad
17:55:53 <ehird> obviously a learning curve
17:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I used trackpoint a few times before, and touchpad a few times before too
17:56:44 <ehird> basically with a trackpoint i curved a lot more
17:56:50 <AnMaster> I would say trackpoint is quite a bit better than touchpad
17:56:52 <ehird> and it was kinda hard to stop moving so swiftly and do more precise stuff
17:57:00 <ehird> The TrackPoint III and the TrackPoint IV have a feature called Negative Inertia that causes the cursor's velocity to "overreact" when it is accelerated or decelerated. Negative Inertia is intended to avoid feeling of inertia or sluggishness when starting or stopping movement[2]. Usability tests at IBM have shown that it is easier for users to position the cursor with Negative Inertia, and performance is 7.8% better [3].
17:57:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you realise this depends a LOT on what you are used to
17:57:04 <ehird> they were like circa 2004
17:57:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I haven't used either more than about twice in my life.
17:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, frankly, I prefer a good mouse on a table
17:57:37 <ehird> A number of ergonomic studies to compare trackpoint and touchpad performance have been done [8][9][10]. Most studies find that touchpad is slightly faster; one study found that "the touchpad was operated 15% faster than the trackpoint"[10]. Another study found that average object selection time was faster with a touchpad, 1.7 sec compared to 2.2 sec with a trackpoint, and object manipulation took 6.2 sec with a touchpad, on average, against 8.1 sec with track
17:57:45 <AnMaster> I'm fastest and most exact with that
17:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird, however, the trackpoint works well
17:57:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Frankly, I cannot carry around a table.
17:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, use the trackpoint with the same finger in bejewled or so for half an hour and your fingertip feels pretty numb
17:58:47 <ehird> If I plug in an external monitor and mouse, I'll just become averse to taking it elsewhere, because I'll notice the difference.
17:58:53 <AnMaster> haven't been successful in using it well with other fingers than my index finger
17:59:26 <ehird> trackpoints are obviously better than mice or trackpads for FPSs, at least :P
17:59:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but then, bejewled (sp?) is a pretty mouse intensive game
17:59:43 <AnMaster> it works fine when you don't use the cursor all the time
17:59:47 <ehird> since you can spin without having to pick up the mouse and move it or whatever
18:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't tried image editing at all with either touchpad or trackpoint
18:00:29 <ehird> Thankfully, I am completely without image editing talent.
18:00:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well, what do you do with your photos
18:01:01 <AnMaster> if you say your mobile phone lacks camera then clearly you aren't ehird
18:01:06 <ehird> Examine their non-existence.
18:01:12 <ehird> Well, I've taken a few.
18:01:16 <ehird> Mostly I just ... use them directly.
18:01:21 <ehird> Maybe some downsizing.
18:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, and some curve adjustment?
18:01:50 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, the trackpoint, I don't curve at all with it
18:02:00 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if it is IV or whatever
18:02:01 <ehird> You know, the original iPhone's camera is pretty bad. I'm not sure there's any use in trying to make its photos better.
18:02:27 <ehird> My hands are way too shaky to take good photos anyway.
18:02:41 <AnMaster> ehird, an issue, which I haven't yet found the cause to, is spurious double click
18:02:48 <AnMaster> I suspect I somehow rest my hand on the touchpad
18:02:53 <AnMaster> while clicking for the trackpoint
18:03:05 <ehird> it was awkward to hit the buttons while using it
18:03:21 <ehird> well i say buttons, the trackpoint buttons are more like keys
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, shaky hands? 13 years old?
18:03:29 <ehird> which is not very expected
18:03:36 <AnMaster> I mean, my grandma has shaky hands
18:03:45 <AnMaster> (she didn't like 10 years ago)
18:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not exactly common to have unsteady hands
18:04:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what I said
18:04:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not like they shake all the time
18:04:34 <ehird> just if I try and rest them in midair
18:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you did like me then, removed half of the double negation ;P
18:04:41 <ehird> if my arms were less weak it probably wouldn't happen
18:05:20 <ehird> not uncommon != common
18:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what about trying to make them less weak. Like doing press ups
18:06:21 <ehird> too much work for no gain
18:06:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a tripod for your phone then
18:07:13 <oklopol> i keep in perfect shape simply by praying
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18:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: You joke, but it has been done.
18:07:35 <ehird> The 3G S has a nice camera.
18:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a phone with tripod mounting?
18:07:49 <ehird> Someone made a tripod for their iphone.
18:08:15 <ehird> It's pretty cool; the photo quality is good.
18:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, googling resulted in this: http://www.geekalerts.com/mobile-phone-tripod/
18:09:21 <ehird> Oh, those Nokia multimedia phones.
18:09:23 <AnMaster> and this http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=45373&doy=search
18:09:24 <ehird> They have good cameras.
18:09:29 <ehird> They're basically hybrid camera/mobiles.
18:09:48 <ehird> I'll try and find the one I was talking about.
18:10:13 <AnMaster> because, digital "zoom" is just "crop" basically
18:11:39 <ehird> Eh, I can't find the one I was talking about.
18:11:53 <ehird> It was full-size, though.
18:12:29 <AnMaster> ehird, but it doesn't look very stable?
18:12:44 <AnMaster> the phone isn't *firmly* attached
18:12:53 <ehird> The one I saw had it completely latched in.
18:14:52 <AnMaster> ehird, if it isn't very firmly attached, a long exposure without flash (say, 20 seconds exposure during night, in star light), could be hard
18:15:25 <AnMaster> generally you use a button at the end of a cable to take the photo in such cases
18:15:30 <ehird> It was so firmly attached that the screen had flickering lines before loosening it a bit.
18:15:40 -!- M0ny has quit.
18:16:44 <AnMaster> cameras are generally screw mounted or mounted with some quick attach that snaps in place
18:16:52 <AnMaster> my camera and tripod uses the former variant
18:18:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:18:46 <AnMaster> huh, why does iwlagn causes lots of wake ups even when not connected to a network
18:19:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:20:15 <AnMaster> nah, seems it is scanning for available networks all the time
18:20:17 <ehird> the computer is getting cancer.
18:20:30 <ehird> the wifi is totally incidental.
18:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing that helps a bit for the WLAN is to disable hardware crypto, that is use the software crypto instead
18:24:15 <AnMaster> ehird, reduces the issue with failing to connect for WPA2 networks (but not WPA ones)
18:24:42 <ehird> I don't use WPA. :P
18:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, it seems this bug is caused by a lot of different things, so probably different (but related) bugs causing similar symptoms
18:25:25 <ehird> How strange. I've only heard of unprotected university networks.
18:25:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it surprised me too
18:25:42 <ehird> Seems rather pointless.
18:26:16 <ehird> "XCB (replaces Xlib, protocol described in XML)"
18:26:16 <ehird> Seriously, reddit?
18:26:22 <ehird> XCB is bad because its protocol is described in XML?
18:27:03 <ehird> I wouldn't assume negativity, but it was posted by "lispnik".
18:27:26 <AnMaster> I never heard of it being in xml, but it wouldn't surprise me
18:27:32 <AnMaster> since freedesktop seems to love xml
18:27:58 <ehird> freedesktop.org is a great initiative; I wouldn't use XML but it's the least work.
18:28:27 <ehird> (I might just be biased because Havoc Pennington has a really awesome name.)
18:28:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well, yes it is a good idea. But sometimes implementations are less than ideal
18:29:24 <pikhq> The whole point of having it in XML is, of course, to automatically generate a lot of XCB's code.
18:29:57 <pikhq> And XCB is great: it tries to be a library for toolkit authors to use, rather than the massive pile of cruft that tries to be programmer-friendly and fails epicly.
18:30:04 <AnMaster> argh, there is some outdoors rap concert thingy a few blocks from here
18:30:16 * AnMaster looks for something to block his hearing temporarily
18:31:32 <ehird> ; fn printer { echo 'fn print_'^$1^' { echo '''^$1''' }' }
18:31:32 <ehird> ; `{printer hello}
18:31:38 <ehird> I was going to say something about code generation. :P
18:31:43 <ehird> (Still possible, you just gotsa use eval.)
18:31:53 <ehird> ; eval `{printer hello}
18:32:09 <ehird> Also, since $1 has to fit in a name, the echo '''^$1^''' bit could just be '^$1^'.
18:32:14 <ehird> Also I missed out a ^ after $1.
18:33:02 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html
18:33:02 <ehird> http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/rc.html
18:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I was wondering a bit about the {}
18:33:08 <ehird> I use it as my login shell.
18:33:24 <GrayGnome`> So you need an XML processor to process the Window descirptions, like wxwidgets XML?
18:33:40 <pikhq> And FreeDesktop.org... My complaint about it is that it focuses on X11 rather than replacing X11. But at least it's trying to make something sane on top of that, so.
18:33:58 <pikhq> GrayGnome`: No, no.
18:34:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe it could be like an arch
18:34:07 <pikhq> The XML describes the library itself.
18:34:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, you uses something insane to support it while building it
18:34:21 <AnMaster> but when finished, it is self supporting
18:34:23 <pikhq> They then generate the C library from the XML.
18:34:33 <ehird> AnMaster: More readable rc transcript: http://pastie.org/585088.txt?key=8letokmt8wmixt6b5wk54q
18:34:34 <pikhq> And the XML library is formally verified.
18:35:01 <ehird> (So you can copy-paste input lines and the ; will just be ignored as an empty command.)
18:35:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't like fancy prompts I guess
18:35:17 <AnMaster> personally I have a hard time without a coloured prompt
18:35:36 <AnMaster> I just can't easily find where the output of the previous command starts/end
18:36:01 <pikhq> ehird: I can see the advantage of that, but I'm quite partial to my RPROMPT.
18:36:18 <AnMaster> as I said, I need a coloured prompt to easily be able to find where the output of a command starts
18:36:31 <ehird> AnMaster: stop writing gigantic gobs of commands
18:36:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: I've got a two-line prompt.
18:36:49 <pikhq> All the info is on the first line, and the second line just has "$".
18:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm rather fond of gentoo's standard prompt
18:36:54 <pikhq> Oh, and the RPROMPT.
18:37:02 <ehird> Anyway, Plan 9's rc has prompt=('% ' '') by default.
18:37:04 <pikhq> Which has the PWD.
18:37:10 <ehird> The rc I use has prompt=('; ' '').
18:37:20 <AnMaster> or do you use some other shell
18:37:21 <ehird> Bash-like would be prompt=('$ ' '> ').
18:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: right prompt.
18:37:30 <pikhq> It sticks stuff to the right of the prompt.
18:37:35 <ehird> additional prompt at right side of terminal
18:37:49 <AnMaster> otherwise I forget where I am when switching between shells
18:37:50 <ehird> I'm going to put the path in my terminal title.
18:37:56 <ehird> Instead of the meaningless "Terminal".
18:38:14 <ehird> ; fn prompt { echo test }
18:38:19 <ehird> Well, this will be easy.
18:38:19 <pikhq> I've got: %date %user@%host %tty\n $
18:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I use that to store a title. to indicate what I'm doing in it. To be able to find the relevant tab quickly
18:38:54 <AnMaster> like cf for cfunge, ef for efunge, mus for playing the music, or whatever
18:38:55 <ehird> precmd() { print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m:%~\a" }
18:38:55 <ehird> export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" "
18:39:05 <ehird> which is [ehird:~] % in yellow
18:39:13 <ehird> and sets the title to
18:39:19 <ehird> ehird@Bournemouth:~
18:39:23 <pikhq> Well, the full PS1 is:
18:39:23 <pikhq> %{$reset_color$fg[blue]%} %B%* %D{%a %b %d} %{$reset_color$fg[red]%}%B%n@%m %{$reset_color$fg[magenta]%}%B%y %{$reset_color%} $prompt_newline %{$reset_color$fg[green]%}%B\$ %b%{$reset_color%}
18:39:28 <ehird> but now I just use ; .
18:39:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, you use tcap for finding those?
18:39:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I guess that means you use unusual terminals
18:40:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsh does.
18:40:12 <pikhq> "autoload -U colors&&colors".
18:40:17 <pikhq> Voila, those are set.
18:40:54 <ehird> Anyway, ~ doesn't even work in rc.
18:41:09 <AnMaster> idea (for sh-style shells, like ksh, bash, zsh and such): shell defined variables should only use all upper case. Scripts should mostly use lower case
18:41:21 <AnMaster> I have seen collisions a few times before
18:41:26 <ehird> ; fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' }
18:44:38 <ehird> Maybe I should write a stopgap project to ehirdOS that removes sucky shit from unix.
18:44:42 <ehird> Like, more than plan 9.
18:44:47 <ehird> Filesystems suck, especially.
18:53:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
18:54:29 <ehird> http://pastie.org/585120.txt?key=tigsvxhlhamicfvkgnvg
18:55:04 <AnMaster> synergy doesn't handle well when one of the clients suspend and later resume
18:58:30 <ehird> synergy sounds kind of shit.
18:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: do you actually want two computers or just two displays?
18:59:22 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, I want to be able to use one keyboard/mouse for both computers when I'm at home to prevent having to work at such an awkward angle for one
18:59:31 <ehird> that didn't answer my q
18:59:44 <AnMaster> or constantly moving latop/desktop keyboard back/forth
19:00:20 <ehird> [18:58] ehird: AnMaster: do you actually want two computers or just two displays?
19:00:30 <ehird> aren't you just using your desktop as an additional screen for your notebook
19:00:32 <ehird> or the other way around
19:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm wouldn't say so. Atm I'm mostly using my desktop + doing some configuring on my laptop
19:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, really, it is just a way to easily be able to work with both systems at once when I'm at home
19:01:52 <ehird> unless you're trying to do stuff the laptop can't handle, I'd just plug the display into the laptop
19:01:54 <AnMaster> which I won't be most of the time
19:02:19 <ehird> do laptops have a socket to use them as a display?
19:02:32 <ehird> the laptop's display
19:02:39 <ehird> like the socket on the back of a monitor
19:02:48 <ehird> i know laptops have a plug like on the back of a computer
19:02:50 <AnMaster> well I guess that would take too much space internally
19:02:50 <ehird> to plug in a display
19:02:55 <ehird> i don't know if they have a plug like on the back of a monitor
19:02:58 <ehird> to plug in to a computer
19:03:30 <Sneezle_> i can have a monitor plugged into my laptop. was that the answer for the question? just passing by... o.o*
19:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well I tried vnc, but really, see the bug about vino-server crashing all the time. and also copy/paste didn't work well
19:04:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw this laptop has VGA and HDMI connectors
19:04:38 <ehird> Sneezle_: what wait where who are you
19:04:42 <AnMaster> since my desktop's monitor is TFT with VGA only, that isn't an issue
19:04:53 <ehird> VGA should be illegal
19:05:00 <ehird> displayport is nice.
19:05:08 <Sneezle_> i was told some minutes ago, i am a douchebag... :)
19:05:24 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
19:05:28 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, DVI with a connector *without screws* would be nice
19:05:30 <ehird> Apple uses it and I think Dell.
19:05:33 <AnMaster> somewhat like the USB connector
19:05:41 <ehird> It's royalty free, the connector is very small, ...
19:05:54 <ehird> and it can handle just about any resolution on one link
19:06:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#Supporters
19:06:26 <ehird> guess you ahve displayport
19:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HDMI.socket.png
19:06:40 <AnMaster> I mistook the displayport for hdmi
19:06:42 <ehird> it's like DVI + audio + pointless
19:07:04 <ehird> I'd prefer everything used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort instead, though.
19:07:12 <ehird> It's smaller than DisplayPort and still supports up to 2560x1600.
19:07:17 <ehird> On January 13, 2009, VESA announced that Mini DisplayPort would be included in the upcoming DisplayPort 1.2 specification.[7][8]
19:07:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it might not be pointless to combine cables. Want to see the back of my desktop?
19:07:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like, lots of cables
19:07:38 <AnMaster> there is a switch on the shelf below
19:07:51 <AnMaster> it is quite a mess of cables behind
19:07:52 <ehird> I have three cables in my iMac; one going outwards, the other two going in.
19:07:58 <ehird> Only one is needed (outwards; power).
19:07:58 <AnMaster> and I doubt wireless monitors would work well
19:08:09 <ehird> One I wouldn't really like to give up (Ethernet; no draft-n router atm).
19:08:16 <ehird> And the last is the USB mouse that I'd be happy losing.
19:08:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't believe in printing.
19:08:28 <ehird> Besides, I'd use a networked printer.
19:08:34 <AnMaster> my printer is a multi-function one
19:08:37 <ehird> (Probably a two-in-one.)
19:08:57 <ehird> As in, plugged into my router.
19:09:15 <AnMaster> ehird, then you just move the cable mess from your desktop to your router
19:09:25 <ehird> Yes. It would have all of one cable plugged into it.
19:09:47 <ehird> Well, three; printer, ethernet (could be dropped), phone line.
19:09:47 <AnMaster> well, what about speakers or headphones
19:10:00 <ehird> I use the iMac speakers. They're okay.
19:10:09 <ehird> Headphones, sure, that's one cable.
19:10:17 <ehird> The built-in mic is fine for anything but recording music.
19:10:22 <AnMaster> ehird, one cable that splits into two connectors at the end
19:10:28 <AnMaster> unless you use builtin one yeah
19:11:00 <ehird> With my laptop, it'll be, uh, zero.
19:11:10 <ehird> One, if I have a headset on, I guess. (The speakers being bad.)
19:11:15 <ehird> One, if I'm charging.
19:11:18 <ehird> Two, if I'm headsetting and charging.
19:11:34 <ehird> It comes to one, though.
19:11:36 <ehird> So not really additional mess.
19:11:55 <AnMaster> so, three if headset and charging
19:12:05 <ehird> Yes, but the cable itself that clutters is only one, since they connect.
19:12:29 <AnMaster> ehird, also, you will need ethernet during installation at least
19:12:46 <ehird> WiFi works on the LiveCD.
19:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, because the driver like to oops in the version on the livecd
19:12:55 <ehird> And you don't need a connection to install, anyway.
19:13:18 <AnMaster> ehird, this depends on exact model of course
19:13:35 <ehird> Probably the Intel 5300 card.
19:13:37 <AnMaster> if you have a different model of the intel wireless chipset it might work better
19:13:46 <ehird> No idea how it differs from the 5100, but it costs more, so it must be better, right? :P
19:13:50 <ehird> Oh, right, I looked it up.
19:14:33 <AnMaster> 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection
19:15:09 <AnMaster> sv:agn = the thing you put on the hook to catch fish. IIRC
19:15:27 <ehird> Fishing rod, you mean.
19:16:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but except for fishing en:bait is sv:lockbete
19:16:58 <AnMaster> it is only if the bait is live
19:17:28 <AnMaster> but not for the shiny things you use sometimes
19:17:42 <ehird> i will never understand fishing
19:18:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I think agn is mostly for when you just sit still and have the fishing rod still, waiting for something to find it. Not like when you throw the hook away and wind it in with a handle
19:18:53 <ehird> i want a copy of Franz Allegro Common Lisp :(
19:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the big commercial common lisp implementations along with lispworks
19:19:16 <ehird> pricing is like $5,000
19:19:23 <AnMaster> must be it supports A G and N standard
19:19:25 <ehird> it comes with a graph database
19:19:30 <ehird> enterprise-quality
19:19:39 <ehird> and you can query it with a prolog dialect
19:19:49 <ehird> (a lisp-based prolog dialect)
19:19:52 <ehird> and all sorts of stuff
19:28:07 <ehird> ehird@brnmth's password:
19:28:07 <ehird> Last login: Sat Aug 15 19:27:43 2009 from bournemouth
19:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is your naming scheme for computers then
19:31:06 <AnMaster> I recently decided on one myself
19:31:16 <ehird> I only have one, Bournemouth; that was named after the computer in Look Around You, series two.
19:31:26 <ehird> Previously it was Deep-Thought, but that was oh-so-cliche.
19:31:31 <ehird> Also this computer isn't even very fast. :P
19:31:38 <ehird> The laptop, no idea.
19:31:42 <ehird> Maybe unicorn. Or bunny. Or kitten.
19:31:49 <ehird> It's small and fluffy*, you see.
19:31:52 <ehird> *not actually fluffy
19:32:02 <ehird> Also unicorns are so small and fluffy shut up.
19:33:02 <ehird> The VM is brnmth because it's all unixy and codeular (i.e. linux not os x) and contained as a VM within Bournemouth.
19:33:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I decided for mythical creatures
19:33:15 <AnMaster> not for tux, since it already exists
19:33:42 <AnMaster> I already have phoenix (the pentium 3), so laptop ended up as "dragon"
19:33:48 <AnMaster> and from there it was easy to decide
19:34:06 <ehird> Maybe I should use words that sound like curses but aren't.
19:34:07 <AnMaster> however, none will be called "kraken", since sv:kraken = en:weakling
19:34:16 -!- GrayGnome` has left (?).
19:34:41 <ehird> shihtzu. shittah. cockchafer. bitch (ok, arguable). titular.
19:34:49 <ehird> admittedly I stole half of them from the hilarious http://www.yankeepotroast.org/archives/2008/09/11_words_that_s.html
19:38:14 <AnMaster> Starting Nmap 4.76 ( http://nmap.org ) at 2009-08-15 20:38 CEST
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/skype_v2-version.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/iax2Detect.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/PPTPversion.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:39:06 <AnMaster> happens when I try using -sV to detect what is running on the port
19:39:53 * ehird splutters: Google to Launch a New Version of Google Search
19:39:56 <ehird> the UI is the same
19:39:59 <ehird> just redesigned the infrastructure
19:40:05 <ehird> I only use Google for the UI :P
19:40:09 <ehird> ( http://mashable.com/2009/08/10/google-new-version/ )
19:44:25 <pikhq> ehird: Google is not run by idiots.
19:44:29 <AnMaster> synergy does have some strange effects on the keyboard of the client btw
19:44:42 <ehird> pikhq: tbh there are things i'd tweak about the ui, mostly whitespace things
19:44:50 <pikhq> "New version" means that they finished up Google FS 2.0, not that they're adding a bunch of crap to the UI.
19:44:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:44:58 <ehird> and i would get rid of the i'm feeling lucky, if i were designing it originally
19:45:08 <ehird> but changing anything now would just destroy it all
19:45:14 <AnMaster> while synergy is running, and active on that display, typing on keyboard works, but holding the key pressed down to repeat doesn't
19:45:16 <ehird> I swear google looked better in 2003, htough
19:45:18 <ehird> with the nice blue tabs
19:45:21 <AnMaster> not that this is an issue to me
19:45:27 <pikhq> They've done UI studies on removing I'm Feeling Lucky.
19:45:31 <ehird> that would kill me
19:45:39 <AnMaster> does it have to disable keyboard repeat
19:45:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Disable keyboard repeat?
19:45:57 <ehird> pikhq: but if google was originally being designed, i'm feeling lucky could be omitted
19:46:05 <ehird> it makes people think google is fluffy and cute
19:46:07 <ehird> but it isn't good UI
19:46:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, only on the client (not the keyboard that controls synergy), and only while the control is on that screen
19:46:33 <pikhq> But it doesn't matter that much, because for the *most* part, Google has a good UI.
19:46:46 <ehird> yeah, the UI is fine
19:46:55 <ehird> though my ideal google UI would just be a text box.
19:46:58 -!- Sneezle_ has left (?).
19:47:20 <pikhq> Nice and simple. "Put in text, you get results. Nothing else."
19:47:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if I just my desktop as the server (the controller), then if I move the mouse onto the laptop screen, typing on the laptop keyboard has no key repeat, typing on desktop keyboard works as usual
19:47:48 <AnMaster> if I have the focus on the desktop instead
19:47:55 <AnMaster> then keyrepeat works on laptop keyboard
19:48:02 <ehird> google has some discoverability problems
19:48:16 <ehird> I mean, even I don't know most of the special syntaxes
19:48:22 <AnMaster> it isn't like you actually use the laptop keyboard when server has control over it
19:48:32 <AnMaster> I can't see a reason to *prevent* key repeat either
19:49:45 <pikhq> ehird: Mmm, yeah. The advanced features are rather hidden.
19:50:00 <pikhq> It's not a perfect UI, but it's at least a good one.
19:50:24 <pikhq> Unlike so many other web sites. "Punch the monkey to navigate the site!"
19:50:37 <ehird> Munch the punkey to savigate the nite.
19:50:46 <ehird> "Duuuuuuuuuuude. Whoa."
19:55:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:55:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, what advanced features in specific?
19:55:14 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:55:26 <pikhq> "inurl:foo.bar baz", for instance.
19:55:32 <ehird> Boolean operators, grouping, what pikhq said, calculator, ...
19:55:34 <pikhq> "site:flimble.com foo"
19:55:39 <ehird> There's a LOT of things hidden inside that text field.
19:55:41 <pikhq> There's a lot of them.
19:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: stop saying the same things as me.
19:55:59 <pikhq> O'Reilly has a rather long book on it, entitled "Google Hacks".
19:56:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, two clicks from main page
19:56:10 <AnMaster> to reach http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=136861
19:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: You, sir, are being an idiot.
19:56:17 <ehird> That is not a discoverable interface.
19:56:21 <ehird> Also, that's just the BASICS.
19:57:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: did you say something? Lastlog is just "about phone" and scrolling is unfun with this.
19:57:19 <pikhq> Did I mention that O'Reilly has a long *book* on it?
20:00:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, but I forgot what
20:01:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems to be out of my scrolback
20:02:07 <AnMaster> so I would need to dig in logs
20:02:56 <fizzie> Sorry, no timestamps. Take up too many chars on the phone.
20:03:52 <fizzie> you could just grep today's log. Maybe not that important.
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, about phone
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:18 <AnMaster> do you have any bluetooth on it?
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:29 <AnMaster> and what about a computer with bluetooth?
20:05:25 * AnMaster slaps GregorR with a green slime
20:05:55 <AnMaster> which means you are into BIG trouble now. And if you don't know what sort of trouble, play more nethack
20:06:55 <fizzie> Yes, phone and iBook both have bt, that's what iSync uses.
20:07:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, then, why not use it to use internet over, rather than use that tiny screen
20:08:14 <AnMaster> -fizzie- VERSION irssi v0.8.13
20:08:45 <fizzie> Ah, you mean *here*. No, didn't take the laptop. I'm on vacation. :p
20:09:42 <fizzie> Using irssi over ssh with specific phone-optimized formats and keys.
20:10:19 <fizzie> Just for tonight. Okay, so on a mini-vacation.
20:12:06 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, do you know if ais had any problems with the Door recently?
20:12:42 <ehird> he's probably busy being dead or something
20:12:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is that no = don't know, or no = no issues
20:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, also, I saw him in here yesterday or so
20:13:39 <AnMaster> so wouldn't call him "busy being dead"
20:14:48 <ehird> Over ssh, with X11 forwarding.
20:15:22 <ehird> http://nsl.com/k/life/life_editor.k ;; this is the code to a fast Game of Life including the full-featured editor seen at http://nsl.com/papers/life.htm
20:18:35 <ehird> and http://nsl.com/k/life.k is less space-intensive or something
20:18:48 <ehird> AnMaster: abstract array operations
20:18:59 <ehird> AnMaster: every line after .t..t: is just gui stuff
20:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, like that APL one in one line
20:19:05 <ehird> and also load: is just loading the pattern file and stuff
20:19:12 <ehird> the whole fast life implementation is just a few lines
20:19:18 <ehird> the rest is the fully-featured gui
20:20:04 <ehird> dunno, some gui stuff.
20:20:36 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/k/life.k separates the sections more
20:20:39 <ehird> and is more space-efficient
20:20:46 <ehird> and can read RLE .lifs
20:22:11 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast021.html <-- :D
20:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: where are virtualbox shared folders in a linux guest?
20:28:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? where you mount them?
20:28:48 <ehird> i've just set one up in the gui named osx mounting the host path /
20:28:49 <AnMaster> assuming you installed guest extensions after last kernel upgrade in there
20:28:53 <ehird> how do I get it as a dir in the guest
20:29:07 <ehird> so the additions aren't starting
20:29:15 <AnMaster> ehird, need to rebuild against new kernel
20:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and then: no idea about mount point
20:32:33 <ehird> i love ubuntu, everything is just working
20:32:40 <ehird> servers aren't meant to be this easy.
20:33:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Actually, "can't install Debian". And Mark Pilgrim actually uses Ubuntu now.
20:33:52 <ehird> But if by "can't understand Debian" you mean "will use something that makes things simpler than Debian when it can be done, without adverse effects that bother me", yes, I will.
20:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, he works at Google and stuff.
20:34:07 <ehird> And switched from OS X to Linux sometime?
20:34:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Dive into Python.
20:34:22 <ehird> oh, and dive into accessibility
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20:35:53 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:/$ find . -name osx 2>/dev/null
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20:36:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to mount it inside
20:36:46 <AnMaster> as in, mount -t vboxfs-whatever osx /whatever
20:36:52 <ehird> • In a Linux guest, use the following command:
20:36:52 <ehird> mount -t vboxsf [-o OPTIONS] sharename mountpoint
20:36:59 <ehird> I can add it to fstab, right?
20:38:12 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:~$ sudo mount -t vboxsf osx /osx
20:38:12 <ehird> [sudo] password for ehird:
20:38:16 <ehird> /sbin/mount.vboxsf: mounting failed with the error: No such file or directory
20:38:31 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:~$ ls -l /sbin/mount.vboxsf
20:38:31 <ehird> -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 10536 2009-08-15 20:31 /sbin/mount.vboxsf
20:38:36 <ehird> It has a red background, the filename.
20:39:00 <ehird> I need to mkdir /osx, of course.
20:39:24 <ehird> fizzie: just VNC into your desktop!
20:39:38 <ehird> everythign in /Users/ehird is owned by root
20:39:48 <ehird> this is the problem with cross-OS mounts
20:39:50 <ehird> no idea how to fix that
20:41:03 <ehird> well, guess I could just mount it as ehird
20:41:09 <ehird> since I can't modify shit that needs root on the host anyway
20:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: user=ehird right?
20:42:56 <ehird> to let me mount it
20:43:14 <ehird> oh, or uid=myuid and gid=mygid
20:43:47 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:/$ sudo mount -t vboxsf -o uid=1000,gid=1000 osx /osx
20:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it mangles permissions?
20:43:52 <ehird> /sbin/mount.vboxsf: mounting failed with the error: Protocol error
20:43:57 <ehird> AnMaster: well, how can it not
20:44:03 <ehird> how can it know that ehird = ehird
20:45:25 <ehird> Especially useful are the options uid, gid and mode, as they allow access by
20:45:25 <ehird> normal users (in read/write mode, depending on the settings) even if root has
20:45:26 <ehird> mounted the filesystem.
20:45:29 <ehird> Wonder why "protocol error" then.
20:45:47 <ehird> it's failing in general
20:47:38 <fizzie> It's an actual piece of software on both machines, it could automatically build username-based uid maps.
20:48:02 <ehird> bunnies and unicorns!
20:48:13 <ehird> "sudo mount -t vboxsf -o uid=1000,gid=1000 osx /osx" with /osx owned by ehird:ehird does it
20:49:05 <ehird> hmm, I wonder what "pass" is
20:50:24 <ehird> oh lawd, doesn't work in fstab
20:50:48 <ehird> osx /osx vboxsf uid=1000,gid=1000 0 0
20:50:54 <ehird> I guess it doesn't like osx
20:50:58 <ehird> but that's the device I'm mounting, isn't it?
20:52:23 <ehird> pjw1965's response works fine, however when placing them in the fstab they don't work because the vboxsf is not initialized prior to the fstab being processed. I am new to linux, so how can this be solved?
21:03:24 <ehird> FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
21:03:31 <ehird> I DO IT EXACTLY HOW IT SAYS AND DOES IT RUN? NOOOOOO
21:22:04 <AnMaster> ehird, this is funny: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html
21:23:14 <ehird> debian's uber-retarded init.d administration script
21:23:20 <ehird> makes me want to stab peopl
21:23:48 <AnMaster> is it as simple as update-rc add sshd default?
21:23:54 <AnMaster> that is how it works on gentoo
21:23:57 <ehird> well, yes, if you want the defaults
21:24:03 <ehird> update-rc.d start sshd defaults
21:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, ah no, on gentoo default is the default multi user run level
21:24:11 <ehird> actually drop the start
21:24:20 <AnMaster> gentoo doesn't use 3, 4, 5 and so on
21:25:33 <pikhq> Sure, but Gentoo uses init as nothing more than a wrapper for /sbin/rc.
21:28:08 <pikhq> That is to say, they are using SysV init as a way of doing BSD init.
21:29:11 <ehird> arch's bsd init is a godsend
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21:37:04 <fizzie> Gah, what sort of freaky lynx have they installed at work; "this client does not support HTTPS urls".
21:37:26 <GregorR> One that's not linked against an SSL lib, presumably :P
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21:39:06 <fizzie> links did https, but I don't know how to tell it to auto-linewrap a text/plain file.
21:55:50 <ehird> sheet:{[r;s]{r[2_sv 3#x _0,s,0]}'!#s}
21:55:50 <ehird> cyl:{[r;s]{r[2_sv 3#x _(*-1#s),s,*s]}'!#s}
21:55:50 <ehird> w:gbox 200 cyl[rule 90]\200#1 0 1
21:56:01 <ehird> ↑ A graphical implementation of the Wolfram automata in K.
21:56:15 <ehird> Rule 90; changing "90" will change, well, the rule.
21:56:43 <ehird> Single dependency:
21:56:44 <ehird> gbox:{(,/(7#,,:'&2){x,,y}/:(0 0 1 1 0;0 1 1 0 0)+/:,/(!#x),/:'&:'x),,,:'-1+^x}
21:56:44 <ehird> vbox:{(,/(7 2#,!0){x,,y}/:(0 0 1 1 0;0 1 1 0 0)+/:+y _vs x),,,:'2#|/y}
21:56:44 <ehird> p:gbox m:100 100_draw 2
22:00:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Btw, why K instead of J
22:01:25 <ehird> I like J for mathematical stuff; K has an awesome functional reactive programming gui thing and olegfink evangelised it a bit
22:01:57 <ehird> basically j's a mathematical vectory thingy, k's a general purpose lang with some awesome stuff that happens to be array based
22:02:15 <ehird> Deewiant: unfortunately there's no k3 for os x, so I have an unholy ssh-into-virtualbox-with-X-forwarding linux setup
22:03:04 <ehird> with a clever thing that cds to /osx/(host pwd)
22:06:37 <ehird> Deewiant: yes. it lacks the gui library and has morphed with some sort of Q language which is like some sort of english thingy skin over K4 whothefuckknows
22:07:23 <ehird> so me/olegfink/other-guy-person are using the 2005 k3 :P
22:12:15 * ehird attempts to disable ssh encryption
22:12:18 <ehird> no point wasting cycles
22:20:53 <ehird> eh i'll just use telnet
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00:08:14 <bsmntbombdood_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Direct-blood-transfusion.jpg
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00:36:39 <pikhq> GregorR: Normal blood transfusions are about as safe, actually. The only difference is a bag and shipping between donor and receipient.
00:37:00 <Slereah_> Normal blood transfusions have a screening procedure
00:37:13 <GregorR> And you can be sure you won't get any EVIL GAY BLOOD.
00:41:19 <Slereah_> Trust me, you don't want to be hit on by a zombie
00:41:45 <GregorR> Only gay zombies hit on people, or there are no female zombies? :P
00:42:09 <GregorR> Or, if I can judge by my past, I am only capable of being hit on by men?
00:42:36 <oerjan> <AnMaster> damn oerjan isn't here <-- i haven't listened to the iwc podcasts actually, should do that some time
00:43:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, the first one is horrible though
00:43:49 <oerjan> i recall reading they have horrible volume control, or something
00:45:10 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea about how to get high res timer for MIDI working under ubuntu?
00:45:18 <AnMaster> rosegarden is giving me errors
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00:45:29 <AnMaster> only way seems to build a custom kernel
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00:45:54 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the issue
00:46:21 <AnMaster> ehird, rosegarden needs a 1000 Hz kernel or a snd-rtctimer kernel to be able to record midi
00:46:30 <ehird> ubuntu studio has a realtime kernel
00:46:34 <ehird> it might be packaged in ubuntu
00:46:46 <ehird> The real-time kernel included with Ubuntu Studio 9.04 is modified for intensive audio, video or graphics work. The scheduler allows applications to request immediate CPU time, which can drastically reduce audio latency[2]. The 8.10 release lacks this real-time kernel, but it has been reimplemented in the 9.04 release.
00:47:49 <pikhq> The realtime patches will be integrated in $SOON.
00:47:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway for MIDI I don't need all that, just snd-rtctimer
00:48:13 <AnMaster> since I'm only doing MIDI I don't even need to bother about jack here
00:48:13 <ehird> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/317120
00:48:27 <ehird> aren't .kos like dynamic kernel objects?
00:48:36 <ehird> so you could just compile snd-rtctimer
00:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird, read a few comments below
00:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, comment 3 to be specific
00:49:37 <ehird> not sure; ask on ubuntuforums?
00:49:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm doing it on my desktop
00:50:00 <ehird> AnMaster: by the way, I found out what the foo..bar stuff in the k life is
00:50:43 <ehird> basically, every variable (K has a whole directory tree of variables; foo.bar.baz is a dictionary as in foo[`bar][`baz] etc) has a set of attributes
00:50:53 <ehird> which is a dictionary of auxiliary information
00:50:56 <ehird> it's referenced as var.
00:51:01 <ehird> to get the attribute x
00:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, my desktop has a 2.6.30 kernel, which handles the issue
00:51:22 <ehird> and i gather that the GUI uses these to define things about how to display and manipulate stuff
00:51:31 <ehird> since `show$2, just shows 2
00:51:35 <ehird> as opposed to, like, other ways of showing it, i guess
00:51:38 <ehird> haven't got that far yet
00:52:07 <ehird> AnMaster: if you didn't want to know, you could have not asked
00:52:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I didn't know it would be like that
00:52:33 <ehird> would you prefer a kitten or something?
00:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, would have preferred a one-liner
00:53:01 <ehird> Quick; give me the Erlang spec in one line.
00:53:59 <AnMaster> I wonder what tempo http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/CthulhuIsComingToTown.pdf is in...
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00:54:10 * AnMaster tries to determine by listening
00:54:18 <ehird> same as santa clause is coming to down
00:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, I know Swedish xmas songs
00:54:44 <ehird> aren't all the iwc songs parodies.
00:54:57 <AnMaster> "We wish you a merry Christmas"
00:55:19 <AnMaster> and there are some both in Swedish and English
00:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, some I notice, others I just wouldn't know
00:55:43 <AnMaster> however I noticed choice of music was very odd in a few
00:56:02 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast017.html
00:56:43 <AnMaster> which is definitely not wedding music
00:57:07 <AnMaster> a famous classical music piece yes, but NOT wedding music
00:57:15 <AnMaster> maybe I should contact DMM about that
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00:57:52 <AnMaster> oh wait, it seems it is in America
01:00:20 <GregorR> Love and carriage, love and carriage; go together like a horse and marriage!
01:01:11 <AnMaster> anyway, to me Canon sounds definitely wrong for wedding music
01:01:32 <AnMaster> GregorR, could you record http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/CthulhuIsComingToTown.pdf :D
01:02:29 <GregorR> Looks like just another rendition of Santa Claus is Coming to Town, with different lyrics ... no great purpose in replaying that.
01:03:59 <AnMaster> GregorR, kay. got a link to "santa claus is coming to town"?
01:04:06 <AnMaster> since I don't know this piece of music
01:04:19 <GregorR> I guess it's too American slash Hooray Commercialism :P
01:04:27 <GregorR> `google youtube santa claus is coming to town
01:04:29 <HackEgo> \ [15]YouTube - Santa Claus is Coming to Town
01:04:58 <ehird> it's a very bad song
01:05:34 <GregorR> But, but, he's making a list!
01:05:41 <AnMaster> I like the IWC rendition of it
01:05:42 <ehird> I wonder why youtube seems to list a bunch of bruce springsteen ones first
01:05:50 <ehird> after a brief listen it seems i've mostly heard the jackson 5 rendition
01:06:23 <GregorR> Every time I look for a song on YouTube, the top results are always the Three Tenors, and I always wind up disappointed.
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01:07:04 * AnMaster tries to figure out which computer has which set of headphones connected
01:07:14 <AnMaster> one of them has onboard and a sound card
01:07:51 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS1Yysc9qHo
01:08:01 <ehird> warning: bad song.
01:09:03 <ehird> in K you can make strings show as buttons instead of strings
01:09:05 <ehird> and that evaluates them on click
01:09:07 <ehird> i love how dynamic it is
01:09:09 <ehird> oklopol would love it
01:09:23 <ehird> it exactly fits his "show the object directly with metadata about how it's shown" thingy
01:10:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why youtube seems to list a bunch of bruce springsteen ones first <-- those seems better than the one you linked...
01:10:29 <ehird> that doesn't mean they're the most common rendition
01:10:42 <ehird> which is generally the thing you'd want to know when someone says "what does this sound like"
01:10:58 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the bruce springsteen one sound a bit familiar
01:11:09 <ehird> Maybe sweden has better musical tastes than the uk then
01:11:37 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I think it is my parents who have better musical taste simply.
01:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, extensive vinyl collection. Well, not extreme. Just about 1.5 meters of shelf space or so
01:14:01 <AnMaster> would change the first one to match one starting with s
01:14:55 <AnMaster> would then add the original missing / to <AnMaster> s/oh/on
01:15:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what? don't you know sed?
01:15:12 <FireFly> [02:14:36] <AnMaster> <AnMaster> /^s/s/$/\//
01:15:20 <FireFly> Isn't that too many (non-escaped) forward slashes?
01:15:32 <ehird> no, s is a sed command
01:15:37 <ehird> coming after the position change
01:15:39 <FireFly> Or am I missing something?
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01:15:53 <AnMaster> only applies on line with the word foo
01:16:09 <FireFly> so a matcher and a substitution regex, combined?
01:16:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, lots of more commands supported
01:16:40 <FireFly> I've only ever used sed for s///
01:16:48 <FireFly> Guess I should read about it some day
01:17:07 <AnMaster> FireFly, I don't know much more than s p and q
01:20:11 <ehird> the code is just so short
01:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I need synergy to forward sound too
01:20:39 <ehird> surely there's a networked sound daemon.
01:20:43 <ehird> also, it sounds like you want plan 9
01:20:47 <ehird> everything is networked and shared!
01:20:54 <ehird> just do the equivalent of
01:20:55 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. except with a GUI I can stand
01:21:01 <ehird> 'bind /n/desktop/sound /dev/sound'
01:21:06 <ehird> and your sound goes to the desktop
01:21:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Plan 9's UI is great.
01:21:13 <AnMaster> ehird, which soundcard on the desktop
01:21:14 <ehird> you're just not used to it.
01:21:22 <ehird> AnMaster: ehh, there's prolly something for that
01:21:24 <ehird> I was giving an example
01:21:35 <ehird> AnMaster: ehh, there's prolly something for that
01:21:35 <ehird> AnMaster: ehh, there's prolly something for that
01:21:37 <AnMaster> I use *hardware mixer* on desktop
01:21:38 <ehird> I was giving an example
01:21:58 <AnMaster> but, I need something that I can run most software on
01:22:06 <ehird> plan 9 has a posix emulation environment :P
01:22:06 <AnMaster> and that can handle wlan and so on
01:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, can it handle my wlan? ;P
01:22:19 <ehird> almost certainly not.
01:22:45 <AnMaster> ehird, there you go then. I wonder if making plan9 handle stuff or adding those concepts to linux would be easiest
01:23:09 <ehird> Glendix is trying to build Plan 9 on top of the Linux kernel but it's not pretty.
01:23:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes, I would like to be able to treat them as one computer at times, and as different computers at other times
01:23:31 <AnMaster> ehird, since one is running KDE and the other gnome, clearly trying to combine them isn't trivial
01:23:44 <ehird> K's variable hierarchy is basically a filesystem, it's interesting
01:23:48 <ehird> perhaps filesystems aren't all bad...
01:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, if they were a bad concept, it wouldn't be so common
01:24:24 <ehird> ..................
01:24:26 <AnMaster> I mean, sure some would still use it
01:24:33 <ehird> [01:24] AnMaster: ehird, if they were a bad concept, it wouldn't be so common
01:24:36 <ehird> You are everything wrong with everything.
01:24:42 <ehird> Aren't you an atheist, I recall?
01:24:44 <oklopol> for being common, you need to be a *local* optimum, you don't need to be a global optimum
01:24:51 <ehird> You know that >90% of the population is religious?
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01:24:56 <ehird> So it obviously can't be a bad concept.
01:25:03 <ehird> So why aren't you religious?
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01:25:40 <AnMaster> ehird, SHOULD there be sound and solid proof I'm prepared to change my point of view.
01:26:02 <AnMaster> however, I don't find that likely
01:26:02 <ehird> You are justifying filesystems by saying "if they weren't an okay idea, they wouldn't be so common."
01:26:11 <ehird> I am justifying religion by saying "if it wasn't an okay idea, it wouldn't be so common".
01:26:23 <ehird> You are saying that using filesystems is good because of this.
01:26:27 <ehird> And should be done.
01:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I believe in that computer scientists are at least not completely irrational
01:26:30 <ehird> So why aren't you religious?
01:26:46 <AnMaster> it takes a certain amount of intelligence to program a computer
01:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't believe that.
01:27:02 <ehird> A cursory glance at any modern "architecture" can dispel any myth of sanity.
01:27:12 <ehird> We're *used* to APIs not doing what they say and breaking in random ways.
01:27:18 <AnMaster> sure, there are stupid ones, but even the plain english creator needs to be able to understand a few bits of basic
01:27:19 <ehird> We build things around making working around this less painful.
01:27:34 <ehird> Modern CS produced Java.
01:27:38 <ehird> It is simply not sane.
01:28:02 <AnMaster> ehird, um... depends. the uni I'm going to also uses python in some cources
01:28:18 <ehird> ...what part are you contradicting?
01:28:31 <ehird> Modern CS, inarguably, produced Java.
01:28:39 <ehird> Modern CS, inarguably, does the other things I said.
01:28:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well that could be true
01:28:52 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know how many programmers work on windows?
01:29:40 <AnMaster> ehird, why haven't one of the old smart ones (joke intended) suggested anything new? Or have Knuth suggested a replacement for file systems for example?
01:29:50 <ehird> Knuth's work doesn't use filesystems.
01:29:52 <AnMaster> maybe he has, and I'm just ignorant
01:30:03 <ehird> It's entirely algorithmic,.
01:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well, in his day-to-day usage of computers he would still end up using them
01:30:21 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, and one of the original unix guys uses windows as his day to day OS
01:30:24 <AnMaster> ehird, so while his book might not cover them
01:30:25 <ehird> with plan 9 in a window
01:30:34 <ehird> that doesn't mean he thinks windows is a good model of an OS.
01:30:46 <ehird> and it doesn't mean that by not suggesting something better, he thinks it's good
01:31:24 <pikhq> ehird: Modern CS did not produce Java.
01:31:33 <pikhq> Modern "software engineering" produced Java.
01:31:51 <ehird> pikhq: If you think they differ outside of the very best institutions then you're blind...
01:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, doing nothing about it won't make it better
01:32:17 <pikhq> ehird: It's a result of much software engineering getting labeled as computer science that you say that.
01:32:30 <AnMaster> clearly this could be taken into a communist discussion
01:32:34 <pikhq> When, in fact, the two are about as different as calculation and mathematics.
01:32:47 <ehird> pikhq: Going by your definition, CS barely exists.
01:32:55 <AnMaster> something about standing up to the oppression of microsoft
01:32:57 <ehird> (Only slightly more than the imaginary 0 at the end of 0.9 recurring.)
01:33:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Consent by silence? brb, rapefest →
01:33:32 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, "computer science" as I consider it is a field of mathematics.
01:33:52 <ehird> Anyway, then, CS didn't produce filesystems.
01:33:57 <ehird> He was referring to CS people as liking filesystems.
01:34:07 <ehird> So, your definition of CS isn't the one he was using, at least, so I will not use it wrt him.
01:34:25 <ehird> The modern CS that likes filesystems is insane; although K is showing that at least filesystems may not be inherently insane.
01:34:26 <AnMaster> well, who produced file systems then
01:34:45 <AnMaster> ehird, thought you weren't religious?
01:35:03 <ehird> Yes, well, I cannot think of any other explanation.
01:35:08 <ehird> Maybe Russell's Teapot dunnit.
01:35:25 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... evil teapot overlord?
01:35:35 <AnMaster> I think you may be on to something
01:35:50 <ehird> Flying Spaghetti Monster is a NWO Illuminati conspiracy !
01:35:52 <pikhq> I'll just say that filesystems are not a UNIX invention.
01:35:58 <ehird> Russell's Teapot is what "They" don't want you to know about
01:36:00 <AnMaster> least you will suddenly be visited by SNMP Men in Black
01:36:08 <ehird> Read more about the reptilian teapot conspiracy>>>
01:36:34 <AnMaster> that doesn't even look like a link
01:36:48 <ehird> Erm... <i> is italics.
01:36:51 <ehird> I was joking because of the <i/>.
01:36:52 <pikhq> Actually, who *did* invent filesystems?
01:36:58 <ehird> The conspiracists websites are uh, bad
01:37:20 <AnMaster> anywya, did ANYONE get my pun above
01:37:53 <pikhq> I'm still not sure, but apparently Ritchie invented the *hierarchical* filesystem.
01:38:00 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_information_base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_In_Black
01:38:20 <oklopol> right, thought it'd be something like that
01:39:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Task Load Automation?
01:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, did you make that one up just now, or does it actually exist?
01:39:49 <pikhq> IBM. IBM invented filesystems.
01:39:52 <pikhq> That explains so much.
01:40:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sun is a UNIX vendor.
01:40:44 <ehird> Sun are slightly more sane... in that they've always emphasised the network.
01:40:45 <pikhq> That's the first thing they did.
01:41:03 <pikhq> So. It's not likely that they'd invent filesystems in general.
01:41:10 <AnMaster> those auto generated by virtualbox's configure tools
01:42:40 <ehird> [[Atkinson [author of hypercard - e] recalled engineers at Apple drawing network schematics in the form of a bunch of boxes linked together. Sun engineers, however, first drew the network's backbone and then hung boxes off of it. It's a critical difference, and he feels it hindered him.]]
01:42:40 <ehird> http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54370
01:42:57 <ehird> and their work on thin clients etc, although i don't like thin clients they were good to explore
01:43:22 <ehird> Hypercard's pretty neato.
01:43:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I only saw "hypercard player"
01:43:42 <ehird> I never saw either!
01:43:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so tell me. why is it neato
01:44:31 <ehird> Eh, read the article, but.
01:44:46 <ehird> It was sort of like a database and sort of like hypertext
01:44:49 <ehird> and sort of like a collection of objects
01:44:56 <ehird> and sort of like a programming language with a GUI
01:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, there were these silly cards
01:45:18 <AnMaster> everything seemed based on pages yes
01:45:35 <AnMaster> don't remember details about that though
01:45:38 <ehird> Yes, well, I never claimed it was perfect.
01:46:02 <ehird> The Myst computer game franchise, initially released as a HyperCard stack and included bundled with some Macs (for example the Performa 5300), still lives on, making HyperCard a facilitating technology for starting one of the best-selling computer games of all time.[citation needed]
01:46:02 <ehird> According to Ward Cunningham, the inventor of Wikis, the wiki concept can be traced back to a HyperCard stack he wrote in the late 1980s, making HyperCard one of the grandparents of the Wiki idea.[7][8][9]
01:46:06 <ehird> haha, Myst was originally in hypercard?
01:46:27 <Sgeo> Is http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=206 supposed to be difficult?
01:46:40 <AnMaster> ehird, so not fixed size I guess
01:46:43 <ehird> Sgeo: did your script take more than 1 minute to run?
01:46:52 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you say that?
01:46:57 * Sgeo didn't try it yet, but it looks like it's easy to bruteforce
01:47:06 <ehird> [01:46] AnMaster: ehird, so not fixed size I guess
01:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, because myst runs full screen
01:47:16 <ehird> ... they didn't say released
01:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is a hyercard stack on the cd
01:47:54 <AnMaster> I was a bit surprised when I found it out
01:48:06 <ehird> The original Macintosh version of Myst was constructed in HyperCard. Each Age was a unique HyperCard stack. Navigation was handled by the internal button system and HyperTalk scripts, with image and QuickTime movie display passed off to various plugins; essentially, Myst functions as a series of separate multimedia slides linked together by commands
01:48:12 <ehird> so it was fixed size, I guess
01:48:28 * pikhq discovers Haiku OS...
01:48:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I meant fixed size hypercard main window
01:48:50 <pikhq> They aim to have binary compatibility with BeOS. Because of this, it is built with both GCC 4 and GCC 2.
01:49:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well, discovering it I meant
01:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that "scan vinyl" one
01:49:16 <ehird> goodbye, cruel world!
01:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, just pointing out you are as inconsistent as I am :P
01:51:38 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure you said so
01:51:49 <AnMaster> ehird, it is well worth playing
01:52:00 <AnMaster> sure, it is old by today's standards
01:52:09 <AnMaster> it was advanced, 256 colour graphics
01:52:32 <AnMaster> and it had a black border around even at 640x480
01:53:36 <pikhq> ehird: You would be amused to note that MULTICS had orthagonal persistence.
01:53:49 <ehird> orthagonal? is that like orthogonal gonads
01:54:22 <ehird> Multics implemented a single level store for data access, discarding the clear distinction between files (called segments in Multics) and process memory. The memory of a process consisted solely of segments which were mapped into its address space. To read or write to them, the process simply used normal CPU instructions, and the operating system took care of making sure that all the modifications were saved to disk. In POSIX terminology, it was as if every f
01:54:35 <ehird> So, an actually sane system.
01:54:42 <ehird> oklopol: try K, you'll like its gui
01:55:40 <oklopol> ehird: is it easy to get on windows :\
01:55:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not the important part...........
01:55:55 <oklopol> i mean let's face it, it needs to be easy to install :)
01:56:05 <ehird> oklopol: http://nsl.com/misc/int/ grab kwin.zip and kdoc.zip
01:56:16 <ehird> follow kusr.pdf; it introduces everything and the gui and shit
01:56:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> Multics implemented a single level store for data access, discarding the clear distinction between files (called segments in Multics) and process memory. The memory of a process consisted solely of segments which were mapped into its address space. To read or write to them, the process simply used normal CPU instructions, and the operating system took care of making sure that all the modificat
01:56:30 <AnMaster> ions were saved to disk. In POSIX terminology, it was as if every
01:56:31 <oklopol> introduces the language se well?
01:56:36 <ehird> AnMaster: wikipedia
01:56:50 <ehird> AnMaster: multics.
01:57:11 <ehird> oklopol: a lot of it is similar to j, 'cept not so many mathematical functions
01:57:20 <ehird> btw the awesome stuff about the gui comes a bit after the start
01:57:29 <ehird> but you literally show objects directly
01:57:35 <ehird> and they have metaattributes controlling how they're showed
01:57:40 <ehird> and they all autoupdate when they change anywhere
01:58:29 <ehird> oklopol: and gui code is ridiculously short in it
01:58:37 <ehird> i mean, it's literally as easy to code a gui as to code a console app in another lang
02:00:43 <AnMaster> ehird, how hard is it to code a console app in it then
02:00:55 <ehird> i don't even know if there is a print function
02:01:24 <ehird> the gui mode lis beautiful
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02:01:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what about layout and such
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02:02:14 <ehird> elegantly and without introducing new concepts
02:02:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well the widgets themselves aren't terribly pretty, but
02:02:31 <AnMaster> without you having to tell how they should line up
02:02:38 <ehird> http://nsl.com/papers/life/o001.png
02:08:14 <oklopol> ehird: k doesn't have bignums?
02:08:31 <ehird> doesn't have by default i think
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02:34:34 <oklopol> i haven't played with it that much yet
02:34:45 <oklopol> i'm wasting my time in many other ways as well
02:38:15 * Sgeo slaps himself for a stupid off-by-one error
02:38:51 * Sgeo accidentally counted 1 as a prime
02:40:27 <Sgeo> Also, it may have taken 2 min to come up with an answer, and in the thread, I'm seeing answers determined in seconds
02:40:39 <ehird> anything over 1m means you failed.
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02:50:11 <oerjan> thai ming is of the essence
03:03:57 * coppro can't believe he's doing what he's doing
03:05:31 <oerjan> you wicked, wicked man
03:06:06 <coppro> reinstalling every package on my computer is sure to cause headaches
03:13:43 <Sgeo> coppro, why are you doing it?
03:15:21 <coppro> Sgeo: my system's become increasingly unstable. I want to rule out FS/disk corruption, which means I did a badblocks scan, and now need to make sure all the system files are correct
03:17:32 <coppro> since clearly the FS scan was insufficient
03:18:46 <oerjan> it's probably due to radioactivity. check your house for radon pollution.
03:19:35 <pikhq> No, no, no. Don't listen to that fool.
03:19:42 <pikhq> It is *definitely* due to radioactivity.
03:19:46 <pikhq> Evacuate the country.
03:19:52 <pikhq> Possibly also the continent.
03:20:05 <oerjan> You mean the solar system.
03:20:06 <pikhq> If you want to be really sure, move to the moon.
03:20:21 <coppro> oerjan: I'd believe that if the Windows partition were showing any signs of instability
03:20:26 <pikhq> oerjan: I should have specified.
03:20:42 <pikhq> oerjan: The Moon, after sending it to Alpha Centauri.
03:21:57 <oerjan> that'll only keep us safe for four years or so, though.
03:22:09 <pikhq> Though it might be safer to move it out of the galaxy.
03:22:22 <oerjan> yes, that may be best.
03:22:48 <coppro> if this doesn't work, what do you think I should try? Probably not a hardware issue (see: Windows) though I rarely use Windows in a taxing manner
03:23:02 <coppro> it's not a drivers issue; I've tried with older kernels and it's still unstable
03:24:15 <oerjan> try reversing the polarity.
03:24:30 <coppro> I know! I'll try logarithms!
03:27:57 <coppro> pikhq: currently trying
03:28:15 <pikhq> coppro: No, I mean logarithms fix everything.
03:28:35 <coppro> except they are bad for passing yourself off as an engineer
03:29:02 <oklopol> is coppro's thing keeping to the issue no matter how little others actually contribute except for puns and jokes
03:29:56 <coppro> yes, I appear to make the bizarre assumption that a conversation will stay ontopic
03:30:06 <coppro> really, what am I thinking?
03:30:32 <oerjan> i recall a conversation that stayed ontopic once. i think it was back in '96 or so...
03:31:04 <oerjan> it's only a vague recall, as usual.
03:31:17 <oklopol> i mean "it might be radioactive" "no, i don't think so, windows isn't affected" ... "reorganize solar system!" "what if that doesn't work, drivers blah blah"
03:31:43 <oklopol> that's just great stuff, i'm a copprophiliac already
03:32:24 * coppro wonders if that would be funnier if he didn't get the joke
03:32:39 <oklopol> coppro: mostly it was not a joke
03:32:49 <coppro> oklopol: the "copprophiliac" line
03:33:36 <oklopol> i just wanted to mention i appreciated your way of conversing with lunatics, that line was just security by obscurity
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03:34:19 <coppro> quick! grab a deep-fryer!
03:34:21 <oklopol> wait, calamari's are a bit bigger than fireflies maybe
03:34:31 <oerjan> but but i might get ink on the swatter!
03:34:48 <oklopol> used it a lot before the swatter
03:35:13 <oerjan> i think the swatter was first. well, the first swatter.
03:35:35 <oklopol> well i just assumed because the swatter is the most recent thingie
03:36:04 <coppro> the deep-fryer isn't for swatting :(
03:36:14 <oerjan> wait it's not a frying pan, it's a sauce pan
03:37:14 <oerjan> i'm afraid i have nothing deep, it won't fit on a line
03:39:20 <oerjan> oklopol doing pushups?
03:39:26 <oklopol> well i'm guessing it's some sorta spider
03:40:22 <calamari> in my absense I see I've been swatted, fried, and deep-fried
03:40:59 <oklopol> calamari: well what do you expect, having been idle for over 5 minutes
03:41:40 <oerjan> it liveth without a liver!
03:41:51 <coppro> calamari: impressive. Usually swatting alone is good to remove a squid's self-awareness, but you seem to have even noticed the deep-frying!
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03:47:52 <oklopol> we're playing name an algo
03:47:54 <oerjan> oklopol: i see you are going with the flow
03:48:23 <oklopol> oerjan: i see you can infer a lot from what i'm typing.
03:50:56 <oerjan> eek what have i started
03:51:21 <oklopol> you seem to know your algos
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03:52:01 <oklopol> i have no idea what the things after RLE are
03:52:29 <oklopol> guess i know vle too, then
03:53:29 <Mnemosyne> wonderful compression algo for monochrome displays
03:53:55 <Mnemosyne> about the topic: I just wiktionaried the phrase
03:54:05 <Mnemosyne> odd topic for the #esoteric channel, a bit, eh?
03:56:50 <oklopol> also i know vector quantization too, at least a lot of the algorithms used for it
03:57:03 -!- oerjan has set topic: Moist by eir own custard | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:57:14 <oklopol> but, grover's algo i don't know the details of, so i'll count this as your win
03:58:17 <GregorR> http://codu.org/plof/plof3.pdf
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04:12:44 <Mnemosyne> what's the story behind the esolangs.org triple-lime logo?
04:15:47 <GregorR> I think it's pretty self-explanatory.
04:21:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ ARG=$1 \ ID=$((ARG+0)) \ if [ "$ID" = "$ARG" ] \ then \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE
04:21:13 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter.
04:21:59 <oerjan> why the heck did HackEgo give those two quotes?
04:22:24 <oerjan> the first command actually worked, just slowly
04:23:59 <Mnemosyne> pikhq's quote was made possible by me :D
04:24:32 <oerjan> also, i suspect it brings some light to the current discussion
04:25:49 <Mnemosyne> so, what's the history behind the logo?
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04:30:25 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
04:35:28 <HackEgo> 13|* ehird has joined #lobby <Madelon> hmmm clean me
04:36:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:37:03 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.22293/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
04:37:28 <HackEgo> 1 \ bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22334
04:38:26 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.22551
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04:43:19 <oerjan> Mnemosyne: you cannot remove a directory with plain rm
04:44:21 <HackEgo> /bin/rm: cannot remove `bin': Function not implemented
04:44:30 <HackEgo> /bin/rm: cannot remove `paste': Function not implemented
04:45:30 <HackEgo> wget: missing URL \ Usage: wget [OPTION]... [URL]... \ \ Try `wget --help' for more options.
04:45:50 <oerjan> Mnemosyne: fetching urls
04:45:54 <immibis> `run (wget http://www.milw0rm.org/exploits/5092; gcc 5092 -o 5092.out; ./5092.out) 2>&1
04:45:55 <HackEgo> --2009-08-16 03:45:54-- http://www.milw0rm.org/exploits/5092 \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2009-08-16 03:45:54 ERROR 403: Forbidden. \ \ gcc: 5092: No such file or directory \ gcc: no input files \ /bin/bash: line 1: ./5092.out: No such file or directory
04:46:20 <immibis> thats the vmsplice exploit
04:46:57 <oerjan> you cannot do network access other than with fetch, i think
04:47:46 <GregorR> Has "gotta" made it into dictionaries yet?
04:48:28 <Mnemosyne> nope. same reason 'gunna' and 'wanna' haven't made it in.
04:49:09 <GregorR> Because prescriptivist bastards rule the dictionaries? :P
04:50:36 <immibis> `run nc www.milw0rm.org 80 2>&1
04:50:37 <HackEgo> www.milw0rm.org: forward host lookup failed: Host name lookup failure : No such file or directory
04:50:38 <GregorR> That's what netcat outputs.
04:50:51 <immibis> it seems like a stupid error message though, "Cmd line: wrong"
04:51:01 <GregorR> And you can only access the network through an HTTP proxy.
04:56:05 <pikhq> immibis: nc is a very minimalist program.
04:56:27 <GregorR> Also, socat is better in literally every way :P
04:56:43 <pikhq> Except for 'ease of use'.
04:57:17 <GregorR> EASE OF USE IS FOR PUSSIES
04:57:21 <pikhq> Though socat's interface is hard to use simply because socat can do a *lot*.
04:58:09 <pikhq> Encrypted VPNs, for example.
04:58:19 <immibis> `run (echo CONNECT www.milw0rm.org:80 HTTP/1.1; echo Host: 127.0.0.1; echo) | nc 127.0.0.1 3128 2>&1
04:58:31 <immibis> `run (echo CONNECT 127.0.0.1:3128 HTTP/1.1; echo Host: 127.0.0.1; echo) | nc 127.0.0.1 3128 2>&1
04:58:42 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23268
04:58:47 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
04:58:56 <GregorR> Fetch is a special command, it doesn't exist in the filesystem.
04:59:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:59:20 <immibis> `fetch http://www.milw0rm.org/exploits/5092
04:59:21 <HackEgo> 2009-08-16 03:59:21 URL:http://www.milw0rm.org/exploits/5092 [7197/7197] -> "5092" [1]
04:59:47 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: ./5092.out: No such file or directory
04:59:51 <immibis> `run gcc 5092 -o 5092.out 2>&1
04:59:52 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld:5092: file format not recognized; treating as linker script \ /usr/bin/ld:5092:1: syntax error \ collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
05:00:05 <immibis> `run gcc 5092.c -o 5092 2>&1
05:00:08 <HackEgo> 5092.c:1: error: expected identifier or '(' before '<' token \ 5092.c:1:33: error: too many decimal points in number \ 5092.c:1:42: error: too many decimal points in number \ 5092.c:20:10: error: #include expects "FILENAME" or <FILENAME> \ 5092.c:21:10: error: #include expects "FILENAME" or <FILENAME> \ 5092.c:22:10: error: #include
05:00:15 <pikhq> socat -T 1 -d -d TCP-L:10081,reuseaddr,fork,crlf SYSTEM:"echo -e \"\\\"HTTP/1.0 200 OK\\\nDocumentType: text/plain\\\n\\\ndate: \$\(date\)\\\nserver:\$SOCAT_SOCKADDR:\$SOCAT_SOCKPORT\\\nclient: \$SOCAT_PEERADDR:\$SOCAT_PEERPORT\\\n\\\"\"; cat; echo -e \"\\\"\\\n\\\"\""
05:00:20 <pikhq> An HTTP server in socat.
05:00:54 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: line 1: sudo: command not found
05:01:05 <pikhq> socat can be quite silly.
05:01:29 <HackEgo> 5092.c: HTML document text
05:02:25 <pikhq> Besides which, that exploit won't work.
05:02:41 <pikhq> 2.6.26 doesn't have the vmsplice bug.
05:03:00 <HackEgo> su: must be run from a terminal
05:03:11 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
05:03:20 <GregorR> immibis: Yeah, I give sudo access to HackEgo :P
05:04:33 <HackEgo> /bin/cat: /dev/zero: No such file or directory
05:04:41 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /sys type sysfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec) \ none on /proc type proc (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec) \ udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,size=10240k,mode=755) \ /dev/disk/by-label/PRGMRDISK1 on / type ext3 (rw,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered) \ tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=755)
05:04:55 <pikhq> ZOMG NOBODY IS LOGGED IN
05:05:17 <HackEgo> . \ /usr/bin/find: `.': Function not implemented
05:06:44 <GregorR> Bleh, now immibis is going to statically compile something in some naive attempt at being tricky, and we'll have to wait while 'e figures out that that doesn't work X_X
05:07:18 <immibis> `run echo $LD_PRELOAD 2>&1
05:07:22 <HackEgo> BASH=/bin/bash \ BASH_ARGC=() \ BASH_ARGV=() \ BASH_LINENO=() \ BASH_SOURCE=() \ BASH_VERSINFO=([0]="3" [1]="2" [2]="48" [3]="1" [4]="release" [5]="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu") \ BASH_VERSION='3.2.48(1)-release' \ CONSOLE=/dev/console \ DIRSTACK=() \ EUID=1885202 \ GROUPS=() \ HACKENV=/tmp/hackenv.25091 \ HACKHG=/tmp/hackenv.hg.25091
05:07:32 <GregorR> It's not actually an ld preload, pikhq was slightly confused, it's a hacked up libc.
05:09:41 <pikhq> It gets you roughly the same effect, without the ability to just use a static binary.
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08:11:27 <MizardX> "An html element's end tag may be omitted if the html element is not immediately followed by a comment." <-- How do place a comment after an omitted end-tag?
08:18:21 <immibis> that's why it says you can't
08:20:48 <MizardX> err.. wait. Those rules are probably for generating HTML5 code, from some object model.
08:21:19 <MizardX> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#syntax
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08:35:01 <AnMaster> <coppro> Sgeo: my system's become increasingly unstable. I want to rule out FS/disk corruption, which means I did a badblocks scan, and now need to make sure all the system files are correct <-- just check the checksums against packages, instead of reinstalling
08:44:30 <AnMaster> anyone know if he do log reading+
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09:54:54 <coppro> so... good news, bad news, and more good news in my inane ramblings about trying to fix my computer at... oh dear, it's 3 am already
09:55:47 <coppro> good news is, I'm now pretty convinced it's a software bug that the reinstall should fix
09:55:59 <coppro> bad news is, I managed to get my computer stuck halfway through configuration of hal
09:56:16 <ais523> just make sure you don't get eaten by sharks
09:56:23 <coppro> good news is, I figured out how to convince it to work from a livecd; though I've no clue how well that will interact with various automatic configuration of kernel modules, etc.
09:56:43 <ais523> also, 3am may not be a good time to attempt that sort of thing
09:58:49 <coppro> unfortunately, I need to get this computer fixed by morning :/
09:59:03 <ais523> was it working before you started?
09:59:13 <coppro> now it's /really/ not working
10:00:08 <coppro> it was in random crash mode previously; now it's in can't boot mode... this isn't even as bad as the time I switched my filesystems to ext4 without making sure the kernel had ext4 enabled
10:00:15 <coppro> *is worse than the time
10:03:37 <coppro> if this doesn't work, I think I'll just reinstall, which won't be pleasant
10:04:08 <coppro> hmm... is there any way to get dpkg to list all the configuration files that have been modif... wait, I'm doing a complete reinstall, that should catch 'em
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10:08:00 * coppro tries to think of anything installed recently that might be causing instability...
10:13:00 <coppro> hrm... /me spies a potential problem
10:13:02 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <coppro> Sgeo: my system's become increasingly unstable. I want to rule out FS/disk corruption, which means I did a badblocks scan, and now need to make sure all the system files are correct <-- just check the checksums against packages, instead of reinstalling
10:13:19 <AnMaster> seems you didn't do log reading
10:13:28 <AnMaster> anyway, there are scripts to verify all files from all packages
10:13:48 <coppro> AnMaster: too late for that, and all the scripts I could find only check that they are there, not for integrity :/
10:14:05 <AnMaster> there is definitely one for ubuntu
10:14:18 <AnMaster> well, tiger checks more than that
10:14:26 <AnMaster> it checks that configuration is secure and what not
10:14:45 * coppro desparately hopes that the kernel module configuration scripts still work without /proc mounted
10:14:47 <AnMaster> but amongst other things it verifies checksums of all files
10:15:11 <coppro> AnMaster: it's the wrong /proc
10:15:15 <coppro> I'm running from livecd
10:15:38 <coppro> AnMaster: no, that's not the problem
10:15:49 <coppro> the problem is that the proc would be incorrect
10:16:10 <AnMaster> paths are adjusted iirc in /proc/mounts and such
10:16:24 <coppro> it's grepping for modules; the modules loaded in the livecd and in my computer do not necessarily have the same modules
10:17:10 <AnMaster> coppro, well, the modules loaded by the livecd should probably contain those that are needed to make your computer boot
10:17:23 <coppro> yes, and if it doesn't boot this time, I will try that
10:17:54 <coppro> but I don't think it's really important, modules should be picked from /etc when the init image is generated
10:18:00 <coppro> (e.g. there's a conffile)
10:23:12 <coppro> if this fixes the system instability, I'd even be willing to give it another go without crashes if I need to to fix the configuration
10:24:28 <AnMaster> coppro, try running without X so you can see any OOPS the kernel is printing to the terminal
10:24:49 <AnMaster> or firewire console if you have a firewire port
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10:44:59 <ais523> hmm... it seems that someone sued Microsoft over an XML-related patent, and they've been banned from selling Word in the US
10:45:11 <ais523> although, it shouldn't take them too long to modify it to get around the patent
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11:11:03 <AnMaster> also they would have to recall all cds and such
11:11:20 <ais523> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9136539/Injunction_on_Microsoft_Word_unlikely_to_halt_sales
11:11:29 <ais523> apparently it doesn't apply to ones they've already sold
11:12:08 <AnMaster> "that let people create custom XML documents, according to i4i"
11:12:13 <AnMaster> what on earth is the patent about
11:12:34 <ais523> who knows, patents are generally unfathomable
11:14:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well, software patents are yes
11:14:28 <AnMaster> originally they did serve a purpose
11:15:04 <AnMaster> like when someone invented a better steam engine, they could sell it alone for a few years, to get the costs for inventing back... but nowdays it seems quite far from that ideal
11:15:05 <ais523> no matter whether they're about software or not
11:15:56 <ais523> yep, I suppose they got harder to read over time
11:16:02 <ais523> as obfuscation lawyers got involved
11:16:31 <AnMaster> ais523, heh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_patent_law#Ancient_Greece
11:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea how to do console over firewire in linux?
11:28:06 <fizzie> If you just want the kernel printk logging over firewire, IP over 1394 and netconsole over that should work. I don't know about bidirectional serial-console style of stuff; doesn't sound so very useful, since you could just run IP and telnet/ssh over it.
11:45:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is gdb over firewire support too
11:46:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, however it is useful, since only case I would use a firewire console would be when I couldn't get in by ssh
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11:46:19 <AnMaster> like, say, ssh crashed on a headless system
11:48:10 <fizzie> No serial ports, then? I guess they're so out-of-fashion nowadays.
11:52:31 <AnMaster> well, some of my computers have serial
11:53:06 <AnMaster> 0% of my laptops, and 100% of my non-laptops
11:53:26 <AnMaster> this includes only working computers
11:54:17 <AnMaster> otherwise 3/5 of the computers have serial ports. Between them they would have 5 serial ports.
11:54:39 <AnMaster> two of my computers have firewire, between them having three firewire ports
11:54:44 <AnMaster> so how many computers do I have ;P
11:54:58 <AnMaster> (if you can even calculate that from the data above)
12:05:12 <fizzie> Was busy mopping up cat puke.
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12:23:41 <AnMaster> fun, same printer reported as two different ones, it changes every other time
12:24:08 <AnMaster> as in, reported as hp:/usb/PSC_2170_Series?serial=XXXXXXXX sometimes
12:24:29 <AnMaster> or hal:/some-long-string sometimes
12:42:30 <fizzie> Meh: /usr/lib/googleearth/googleearth-bin: symbol lookup error: libssl.so.0.9.8: undefined symbol: EVP_idea_cbc
12:42:58 <fizzie> I guess it still must be something about IDEA patents.
12:44:22 <fizzie> There's a very confused Ubuntu bug report about it though.
12:45:26 <fizzie> The workaround there worked, though, which was nice.
12:47:22 <fizzie> Too bad google-earth displays no image, just a dark-grey window.
12:58:04 <fizzie> Installing nvidia-glx-ia32 made it work, though.
12:58:50 <fizzie> Except it gets confused if I make it a floating window. Works when tiled. That's not so common.
13:02:24 <fizzie> I thought this thing has some sort of kml-editing facilities, though. I have a pretty broken GPS track (16 separate segments, I need to join them, move and delete some points, and so on) which needs some manual editing, and I thought google-earth would have the best map background for that.
13:05:50 <fizzie> Whoa; last I looked (okay, years ago) the "3d buildings" view had pretty much nothing except few landmarks.
13:06:06 <fizzie> Now it seems pretty much complete city centre of Helsinki's been 3d-modelled.
13:08:03 <fizzie> Not very far outwards, though.
13:08:17 <oklofok> are all the humans modeled as well
13:09:04 <oklofok> otherwise it's just a sad old ghost town
13:10:29 <oklofok> well you model like a stick figure with a big smile and put it there
13:10:54 <fizzie> Nokia's headquarters are flat, but the nearby Kone and Fortum buildings are there.
13:10:55 <oklofok> well. i guess she'd be pretty lonely
13:13:24 <fizzie> The coal power plant started glowing blue when I moused over it, that was a bit disturbing. Turns out there was just an info-box about it available, and not that I was making it overload and soon-explode with google-earthifying around.
13:24:34 <fizzie> Oh right, it had this really crazy UI; you have to open the "properties" dialog for the path, and that's what makes the path nodes editable. I guess I can use it after all.
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15:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, better idea would connecting it to the flight sim thingy
15:07:40 <fizzie> Phew, got a reasonably coherent walk out of those points: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Fzem.fi%2F~fis%2Ftest4b.kml&ie=UTF8&z=15
15:08:02 <AnMaster> as in... require you to fly in certain ways between points to edit them or so
15:08:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, "We could not understand the location http://zem.fi/~fis/test4b.kml"
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15:09:24 <fizzie> Strange. It should be able to accept a http:// URL to a .kml file; I've been using it a lot to preview those routes.
15:09:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok, it works if I reload the page twice
15:09:49 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some really-ugly-hack -related reason.
15:09:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh it seems to switch to basic html mode
15:11:06 <AnMaster> sure it was the shortest path?
15:12:05 <fizzie> We had two hours to kill before our restaurant reservation.
15:12:13 <AnMaster> damn, it is sure hard to read the map on this high DPI monitor
15:13:22 <fizzie> Myself and my wife; that's I guess my default "we". Anyway, should gpscorrelate the photos on the path too, but first have to pick out the sensible ones.
15:13:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, which end is the start and which is the stop
15:14:01 <fizzie> It starts from Norra esplanaden and ends there in Petersgatan, if your map is displaying the street labels in the same language than this one here.
15:14:09 * AnMaster tries to imagine fizzie being married.
15:14:49 <fizzie> The black toilet paper hotel was there right next to Hotel Kämp, which seems to be marked on the map.
15:14:51 <AnMaster> you seemed like such a good example of guy at university, who might have a gf, but definitely not a wife. heh
15:16:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, the target was at Petersgatan?
15:16:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://www.central.fi/?deptid=281&languageid=8
15:17:04 <fizzie> The line ends approximately there.
15:17:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a bit confused when you crossed your previous path
15:18:01 <fizzie> There's a bit of crisscrossing, the main point was to look at the nice houses there on Huvilakatu (Villagatan).
15:18:07 * AnMaster wonders why google earth displays it in miles
15:18:18 <fizzie> It's actually a flag in the .kml file.
15:18:41 <fizzie> I forgot to tell gpsbabel "-f kml,units=m".
15:18:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, ready to reload it when you are
15:19:02 <fizzie> Er, and it's "-o kml,units=m".
15:19:11 <fizzie> Just a second. Well, several seconds.
15:19:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, or just tell me how long the walk was
15:19:47 <fizzie> It's there now as test4c.kml -- I've had some problems getting browsers to reload the .kml file itself.
15:20:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I can't really see it on laptop, remember my laptop has a ~129 DPI screemn
15:20:43 <AnMaster> on the 96 DPI desktop it is easier
15:21:21 <fizzie> The altitude numbers might actually be correct this time, since the trip through kml and Google Earth had the "clamp to ground level" flag on, so it's possible that it has used Google's height data to reset the altitude information in the points.
15:23:40 <fizzie> Even 36 metres sounds a bit overdoing it, it's pretty flat terrain.
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15:26:10 <fizzie> The editing in Google Earth has removed the timestamps from the points.
15:28:19 <fizzie> I guess it makes some sort of sense, but it makes that track really useless for photo-correlating. Mehbleh.
15:45:38 <fizzie> Heh, "Max Speed 55.3 km/hour". That's quite a walking speed.
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16:16:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did it calculate THAT?
16:16:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, and why did it need editing? Filtering out the awkward bits? The visit in some shops you want to keep private? ;P
16:17:58 <fizzie> I tend to take several pictures of the same things. Besides, there are again couple of merge-in-hugin shots from places where the built-in objective just wasn't wide enough.
16:18:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't the GPS record altitude iirc?
16:18:17 <fizzie> Yes, but the altitude is a lot less reliable than the position.
16:18:34 <fizzie> Those numbers did come from the GPS, actually, which might explain their strangeness.
16:18:59 <fizzie> And I guess the 55.3 km/h comes from some place where the gps was confused and did a large jump. Reception was a bit iffy there between all the buildings.
16:19:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, is kml a binary format?
16:19:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, then using kompare or similar to merge the timestamps back in shouldn't be TOO hard
16:19:41 <fizzie> Though Google Maps supports a .kmz format too, which I think is just gzipped kml.
16:19:43 <ehird> 04:44:07 <AnMaster> M0ny, you mean like for 1800 century tables and so on?
16:19:56 * ehird time warps to BOTTOM of that log...
16:20:04 <fizzie> Yes, well, I did it with a bit of Perl; the timestamps is where the 55.3 km/h speed came from.
16:20:45 <ehird> 19:22:09 <pikhq> Though it might be safer to move it out of the galaxy.
16:20:45 <ehird> can't we just migrate to another universe?
16:21:08 <AnMaster> oklofok, no, but trying to handle that English is off by one
16:21:56 <oklofok> yeah, that's not "1800th century"
16:22:18 <oklofok> ehird was pointing out the 1800th century i quite a bit in the future
16:22:22 <AnMaster> means "the eightteen hundred number" literally
16:22:31 <AnMaster> as for "the number" bit, no clue
16:22:55 <oklofok> in english, you call centuries centuries
16:22:59 <AnMaster> oklofok, well, obviously this is a retcon to hide that I *actually* was time travelling
16:24:12 <ehird> 19:34:21 <oklopol> wait, calamari's are a bit bigger than fireflies maybe
16:24:16 <ehird> <oklopol> calamari's
16:24:20 <AnMaster> even using an example STRAIGHT from a log
16:24:20 <ehird> NEENOR NEEEEEEEEENOR
16:24:27 <ehird> OKLOPOL ERROR FOUND
16:24:34 <ehird> NEENOR NEEEEEEEEENOR
16:24:36 <ehird> okay situation over
16:24:42 <ehird> just be calm and relax
16:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that "OOOEEEEEEOOOEEEEEOOOO"
16:25:43 <ehird> that's one type of siren
16:26:10 <AnMaster> ehird, there is the (say it very quickly) "WEWEWEWEWEW" type too
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16:29:41 <ehird> 19:47:52 <oklopol> we're playing name an algo
16:29:50 <oklofok> hmm, it seems 100 is the maximum amount of processes.
16:29:50 <oklofok> or at least usually when i open the task manager because i can't open any more windows, the count is 100
16:30:06 <ehird> 19:53:55 <Mnemosyne> about the topic: I just wiktionaried the phrase
16:30:06 <ehird> 19:54:05 <Mnemosyne> odd topic for the #esoteric channel, a bit, eh?
16:30:06 <ehird> it's esoteric because of "eir"
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16:30:50 <pikhq> This is quite stunning -- Gecko, using less than 100M.
16:31:07 <ehird> 20:43:40 <Mnemosyne> I'm a gnu/linux noob
16:31:07 <ehird> 20:43:42 <Mnemosyne> :D
16:31:08 <ehird> 20:43:54 <Mnemosyne> I'm so used to Mac
16:31:08 <ehird> Underpinnings fail.
16:31:08 <oklofok> of course, that's impossible because i actually cannot open any new windows, not even menus, which of course aren't processes
16:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, did PPC based macs use ACPI?
16:31:20 <pikhq> Hooray, LDFLAGS="-Wl,--as-needed"
16:31:21 <ehird> AnMaster: no idea.
16:31:23 <AnMaster> or is it only x86 and ia64 that does
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16:32:14 <ehird> 20:56:27 <GregorR> Also, socat is better in literally every way :P
16:32:14 <ehird> It's infinitely worse due to being very bloated.
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16:32:39 <AnMaster> I never *TRIED* 100 windows on windows
16:32:51 <ehird> Yeah, uh, Windows can open over 100 windows, so no.
16:32:53 <AnMaster> but wouldn't surprise me if it didn't handle that
16:33:19 <ehird> Windows is completely uselessly crippled and no professionals ever get anything done with it because they can't because I dislike it, amirite?
16:36:07 <ehird> 02:44:59 <ais523> hmm... it seems that someone sued Microsoft over an XML-related patent, and they've been banned from selling Word in the US
16:36:07 <ehird> 02:45:11 <ais523> although, it shouldn't take them too long to modify it to get around the patent
16:36:07 <ehird> holy shit stop reading whatever you do, we discussed that about a week ago
16:36:17 <ehird> also, it's not about XML, dammit
16:36:44 <ais523> it's XML-related in some way
16:37:20 <ehird> ais523: here is what it is about
16:37:20 <ehird> out of bound formatting information
16:37:20 <ehird> instead of hello <b>world</b>
16:37:22 <ehird> {hello world,{start=N,end=N,bold}}
16:37:28 <pikhq> It's about having an extensible XML schema, IIRC.
16:37:35 <ehird> pikhq: no it is not ffs
16:37:38 <ais523> there seem to be two conflicting reports as to what it's about
16:37:46 <ais523> one says it's extensible schema, the other says it's tag-data separation
16:37:50 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, then.
16:37:52 <ehird> ais523: the one I am talking about is from people who have actually read the patent.
16:37:58 <pikhq> ehird: Still a fucking retarded patent.
16:38:04 <ehird> pikhq: duh, all patents are
16:38:11 <ehird> (i wish there were non-tabloid tech news sites)
16:38:11 <ais523> my guess is actually there are two different court cases, with two different patents
16:38:16 <ais523> which is why people are getting muddled
16:38:34 <pikhq> All software patents are. Non-software patents have the *possibility* of being non-retarded.
16:38:44 <ehird> 03:54:44 <AnMaster> so how many computers do I have ;P
16:38:45 <ehird> 03:54:17 <AnMaster> otherwise 3/5 of the computers have serial ports. Between them they would have 5 serial ports.
16:38:55 <AnMaster> fucking god, I can get the limit match to work under older kernels
16:39:05 <ehird> pikhq: no. government-enforced monopolies are never non-retarded.
16:39:16 <AnMaster> and I'm too busy to debug that atm
16:39:37 <pikhq> ehird: Government is a government-enforced monopoly. :P
16:40:01 <ehird> pikhq: s/government/state/ig, technically.
16:40:20 <ehird> pikhq: but a self-enforcing monopoly... isn't
16:40:29 <ehird> it's perfectly possible to set up a competing state and overthrow the existing one
16:44:24 <AnMaster> I fail to find how you arrived at the answer
16:44:28 <ehird> "3/5 of the computers have serial ports".
16:44:32 <ehird> Three out of five of them.
16:44:58 <ehird> Oh, you meant (3/5)*.
16:45:04 <ehird> That's not what "3/5 of the computers" means in English.
16:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean with the multiplication with the dot there
16:46:15 <ehird> That dot is also known as a full stop.
16:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, however, it can't be 6 out of 10 for an obvious reason. Five serial ports. 6 computers. Nah
16:46:28 <ehird> Half a serial port.
16:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about 6 computers in total
16:48:47 <GregorR> 4/4ths of the people in this conversation are annoying and pedantic.
16:49:14 <AnMaster> 3.3 computers having serial ports
16:49:17 <ehird> GregorR: I DID tell him that that isn't what 3/5 means.
16:49:35 <GregorR> ehird: Yes, thank you for proving my point.
16:49:38 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't see what it would mean INSTEAD
16:49:54 <AnMaster> it is just a simplified fraction
16:50:09 <AnMaster> whatever the English word is for that
16:50:23 <Sgeo> Is it safe to say that netbooks are inappropriate for compiling C/C++ code?
16:50:24 <AnMaster> it would be as silly as saying "4/8"
16:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster: It means "There are FIVE and THREE of them".
16:50:41 <ehird> Sgeo: What processor?
16:50:47 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I just compiled on my dual core thinkpad
16:50:51 <GregorR> Sgeo: Anything short of a supercomputer is inappropriate for compiling C++.
16:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: ..........
16:50:54 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT IS NOT A NETBOOK
16:51:08 <pikhq> GregorR: Still inappropriate.
16:51:12 <AnMaster> THAT IS WHY LAPTOP IS A BETTER WORD
16:51:20 <pikhq> C++ cannot be compiled, you see.
16:51:42 <GregorR> pikhq: Well, it's inappropriate to compile C++ code in the same way that it's inappropriate to walk around downtown totally nude.
16:51:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, so all the "so called" compilers are scams?
16:51:48 * Sgeo needs a laptop for school, and want to convince my dad to get something which happens to be appropriate for gaming. Just thinking that if he points towards a netbook, I could say that it's inappropriate for what I need to do.
16:52:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: They compile a subset of C++.
16:52:22 <GregorR> Sgeo: Not big on lying to your family, eh? :P
16:52:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, he wants to play Tux Racer.
16:52:42 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I'm taking C++ classes
16:52:48 <AnMaster> ehird, vegastrike, warzone2100
16:52:57 <AnMaster> but yes tux racer, or one of it's forks
16:53:01 <ehird> Sgeo: Compiling any non-trivial C++ program will be very tedious; javascripty websites will be dog slow,
16:53:03 <Sgeo> If I want gaming, I go with Windows. That's my main reason for using Windows, actually
16:53:04 <ehird> Flash will be painful, ...
16:53:13 <GregorR> Also wine, lest we forget that that not only works but works extraordinarily well.
16:53:18 <ehird> Sgeo: Besides, they tend to have only 1GB of RAM.
16:53:22 <ehird> Microsoft actually have rules.
16:53:26 <ehird> If a netbook is too powerful,
16:53:29 <ehird> they can't use windows
16:53:48 <pikhq> Actually, they can't use Windows XP.
16:54:02 <ehird> but 7 isn't out yet
16:54:06 <ehird> and vista will be dog slow on them
16:54:07 <pikhq> They can use Windows Vista, but there's no way in hell you're making a netbook that can run Vista.
16:54:09 <AnMaster> why did my thinkpad ship with a "downgrade to xp" cd
16:54:16 <ehird> AnMaster: IT'S NOT A NETBOOK YOU FUCKING RETARD!
16:54:31 <ehird> ..........................
16:54:37 <Sgeo> What's the difference between a notebook and a laptop?
16:54:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: They can *barely* manage to do that, because it ships with Vista by default.
16:54:40 <ehird> IF THEY ARE BEYOND CERTAIN SPECS THEY CAN'T USE XP
16:54:58 <ehird> Sgeo: most modern notebooks burn your lap
16:54:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, thanks for answering the actual question. Unlike ehird
16:55:00 <GregorR> Good lawd the conversations in here are stupid.
16:55:01 <ehird> so laptop is inappropriate
16:55:06 <pikhq> Microsoft makes the whole affair very confusing.
16:55:09 <ehird> AnMaster: I DID ANSWER IT FOR FUCK'S SAKE, BEFORE YOU EVEN ASKED
16:55:15 <ehird> IF A NETBOOK IS BEYOND CERTAIN SPECS, THEY CANNOT USE XP
16:55:23 <ehird> Sgeo: Also, there's one easy way to rebut a netbook: the screen.
16:55:28 <ehird> Sgeo: And keyboard.
16:55:36 <pikhq> The Windows 7 upgrade scheme is retarded.
16:55:38 <ehird> Sgeo: There is NO WAY you will get any decent programming done on a 10" screen with a tiny keyboard.
16:55:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm unable to find the word "downgrade cd" anywhere
16:55:58 <ehird> AnMaster: 16:53] ehird: If a netbook is too powerful,
16:55:58 <ehird> [16:53] ehird: they can't use windows
16:55:59 <ehird> 16:53] pikhq: Actually, they can't use Windows XP.
16:55:59 <ehird> [16:53] ehird: pikhq: well, yes
16:55:59 <ehird> 16:54] ehird: but 7 isn't out yet
16:55:59 <ehird> [16:54] ehird: and vista will be dog slow on them
16:56:06 <ehird> ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ In conclusion, you're a retard.
16:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't mention downgrade cd to xp
16:56:49 <ehird> A DOWNGRADE TO XP IS THE SAME AS USING XP
16:57:12 <pikhq> ehird: Jebus, man. From how you talk, you'd almost think that you cared about Microsoft.
16:57:41 <ehird> <person> Microsoft secretly fucks babies to shit out new versions of windows.
16:57:43 <AnMaster> ehird, um. are you *trying* to say they can use XP if it is a powerful, as long as it is called "notebook" not "netbook"?
16:57:45 <ehird> <me> No, they don't.
16:57:49 <ehird> <pikhq> WHAT DO YOU LOVE MICROSOFT OR SOMETHING??????
16:58:07 <pikhq> ehird: You are fekking retarded.
16:58:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you see in that quote where ehird answered the question I asked. Since I can't.
16:58:19 <ehird> ......................................................................................
16:58:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I'm pretty sure ehird is incorrect in this case.
16:59:06 <ehird> gee, that's new; not like you always are or anything
17:00:02 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that PSOX was designed to be language-neutral in the same way that Minimal was designed to be TC
17:01:01 <AnMaster> ehird, because my thinkpad is definitely beyond those specs you mentioned. Yet it ships with such a downgrade to XP cd. Yes what pikhq said answered the question. But you never did.
17:01:03 <pikhq> Sgeo: Well, it's at least a bit more sane.
17:01:12 <pikhq> A language with stdio could at least *use* PSOX.
17:01:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Your thinkpad is not a fucking netbook.
17:01:22 <ehird> You are either being purposefully dense, or have less of a brain than a rat.
17:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. So: <AnMaster> ehird, um. are you *trying* to say they can use XP if it is a powerful, as long as it is called "notebook" not "netbook"?
17:01:53 <AnMaster> because that wasn't clear from what you said before
17:02:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: They have a definition for "netbook", but basically.
17:02:24 <FireFly> Can't one simply netcat instead of psox, to redirect I/O to a server?
17:02:43 <pikhq> FireFly: For trivial cases, sure.
17:02:49 <pikhq> PSOX does more than that.
17:02:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, well, iirc PSOX can do more than that. Like... file IO
17:02:52 <ehird> pikhq: Uhh, that completely contradicts what AnMaster says.
17:02:59 <ehird> They have a definition of "netbook".
17:03:06 <ehird> It's not about what the company calls it.
17:03:20 <ehird> <AnMaster> Is it if you call it netbook <pikhq> It's about if it's a netbook, not if it's called that, but basically.
17:03:24 <ehird> i.e., not that at all.
17:03:24 <AnMaster> and that definition includes that it isn't too powerful? OK
17:03:49 <Sgeo> The definition can't include that it isn't too powerful, otherwise, there'd be no such thing as a netbook too powerful for XP
17:03:59 <pikhq> ehird: Out of curiosity, did you get a stick up your ass today?
17:04:06 <AnMaster> ehird, now YOU are being dense
17:04:07 <AnMaster> since that wasn't what I said at all
17:04:12 <AnMaster> and pikhq understood me correctly
17:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: Wow, that's remarkably reasonable of you; "Stop arguing with me and let me win no matter if I'm right or wrong otherwise I'll insult you".
17:04:41 <ehird> Convincing indeed.
17:04:43 <Sgeo> Also, without PSOX, the esolang can't really determine what server to connect to.
17:04:51 <ehird> Can I reply with an equally eloquent suggestion, that of "fuck off"?
17:05:24 <AnMaster> _Typical_ ehird-being-annoyed-scenario
17:05:27 <Sgeo> If I childishly chant "Fight fight fight!", will that stop the fight?
17:05:42 <AnMaster> Not that I like popcorn really
17:05:56 <pikhq> ehird, you rank up with GNAA in the halls of trolldom. ;)
17:06:05 <ehird> Sgeo: No, because AnMaster will mistake it for a reasonable argument ("If I liken a situation to something common (because I said so), it stands to reason that all your arguments must be false.")
17:06:40 <ehird> pikhq: You do, at least, have the useful property of being predictable. It's much easier to argue when you can make one argument and repeat it because it still applies forever.
17:07:08 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I'm not sure what ehird was suggesting I would do. It was to incoherent to understand
17:07:13 <ehird> pikhq: You're still doing it.
17:07:38 <Sgeo> AnMaster, I understood it perfectly, but it makes no sense because you're already partially doing it.
17:08:07 <Sgeo> Me saying "Fight fight fight" should have nothing to do with you doing what ehird claimed you would.
17:08:08 <ehird> Sgeo: i do believe you just called AnMaster's attempt at a serious insult of me a childish chant
17:08:21 <Sgeo> ehird, I didn't.
17:08:27 <AnMaster> actually, mine *was* intended to be silly
17:08:38 <AnMaster> from "<AnMaster> seems familiar"
17:08:50 <ehird> 17:05] Sgeo: If I childishly chant "Fight fight fight!", will that stop the fight?
17:08:51 <ehird> 17:06] AnMaster: Sgeo, give it a try
17:08:51 <ehird> 17:07] AnMaster: Sgeo, I'm not sure what ehird was suggesting I would do. It was to incoherent to understand
17:08:51 <ehird> 17:07] Sgeo: AnMaster, I understood it perfectly, but it makes no sense because you're already partially doing it.
17:09:14 <ehird> AnMaster: claiming something you said was meant to be silly doesn't mean shit when you're using it in place of saying anything coherent
17:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so why do you still do it
17:09:35 <Sgeo> Is this fight even _about_ anything anymore?
17:10:04 <ehird> Sgeo: it would be, if AnMaster didn't seem to think that yelling at me is a substitute for anything else.
17:10:27 <Sgeo> But in either case, it's now fighting about the fight. That seems dumb to me.
17:10:45 <AnMaster> ehird, Um? It was pikhq who was
17:10:57 <ehird> No, you followed in the same vein as pikhq.
17:11:03 <AnMaster> you used upper case, thus yelled
17:11:20 <ehird> Sgeo: irc is dumb.
17:11:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ...........
17:11:36 <ehird> Gee, it isn't like "yell" could mean "insult" or anything.
17:11:39 <AnMaster> I never meta-fight I didn't like
17:11:46 <ehird> No, I must have meant it totally literally. You are so right.
17:11:54 <ehird> Incidentally, you just used "silliness" as a stand-in for actual arguments again.
17:12:02 <ehird> Should make this a drinking game.
17:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you do that all the time. You even admitted it a few days ago
17:12:25 <AnMaster> about being silly all the time
17:12:34 <Sgeo> arguments for what? Who started this silliness in the first place? Does anyone actually care?
17:13:02 <ehird> You know, AnMaster, I sometimes wonder how on earth you sometimes understand anything anyone says.
17:13:10 <ehird> It's clear you can't comprehend the english language at all./
17:13:32 <AnMaster> ehird, You are using insults instead of actual arguments now
17:13:59 <ehird> Why do people feel a need to follow up anything I say with a direct example of it?
17:14:07 <ehird> The idiocy is astounding
17:14:07 <AnMaster> also I'm a bit busy, so I'm going to use ignore, until you came to your senses again
17:15:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, tell me when he came back to his senses.
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17:42:28 <AnMaster> about the wlan thingy at uni, further research indicates WPA2 + RADIUS is only used in the library building. At least one building instead uses open + "try to load any web page, get auto restricted to a login page, where you have enter the login, before being able to use internet. I have no idea if that network part will only be able to browse or actually do something useful (like tunnel to home)
17:42:54 <AnMaster> ais523, how does it work at the university you are at
17:43:09 <ais523> they use WPA professional, with username and password
17:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc ehird claimed yesterday that you said your uni used open network
17:43:56 <AnMaster> well guess he was wrong or had outdated info
17:44:17 <ehird> Not one bit. Completely fabricated.
17:44:22 <AnMaster> (might have been a few more days ago than yesterday, not sure)
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19:06:45 <ais523> ehird: any idea who 72.74.122.180 is?
19:06:54 <ais523> I think they're counter-trolling esolang
19:07:13 <ehird> +: toggles the memory space.
19:07:13 <ehird> -: toggles the toggle.
19:07:13 <ehird> .: copies the selected memory to the stack and resets if M1.
19:07:14 <ehird> ,: copies the stack to the selected memory and resets if M2.
19:07:14 <ehird> <: prints the selected memory as an ASCII character.
19:07:14 <ehird> >: prints the stack value mod 128 as an ASCII character.
19:07:16 <ehird> [: increases the stack value by 2.
19:07:18 <ehird> ]: decreases the stack value by 1.
19:07:32 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Almost_impossible_to_learn_and_apply_esoteric_programming_language
19:07:51 <ehird> ais523: i don't think he's counter-trollign us per se
19:08:01 <ais523> no, he's trolling the trolls
19:08:13 <ehird> i like the pages, let's keep 'em
19:08:58 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Chess&diff=prev&oldid=15182 is their only non-trolly edit
19:08:58 <ehird> likely the same person as 71.184.8.98
19:09:02 <ehird> who is probably smallhacker
19:09:05 <ehird> the creator of that language
19:09:16 <ais523> well, I like what they're doing anyway
19:09:19 <ehird> although that's less certain
19:09:24 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Chess&action=history
19:09:26 <ehird> almost certainly not them
19:09:30 <ehird> since it's two years later
19:09:41 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Chess&diff=prev&oldid=15160 "an idea"
19:09:44 <ehird> ais523: so it's just someone.
19:09:56 <ais523> if whoever it is is here, well done
19:10:43 <ehird> hmm... esolang idea: it's trivial to imagine a language which introduces off-by-one errors
19:11:01 <ehird> that would be the analogue of the machine that makes a drink that's almost, but not entirely, like tea
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19:11:11 <ehird> the analogue of the machine that makes a drink that's almost, but not entirely, unlike tea
19:11:31 <ais523> an esolang which nearly always gives the wrong answer
19:11:41 <ehird> you'd have to have your algorithm in the corners of another one, so to speak
19:17:40 * oerjan needs some fairy cake with that
19:23:41 <MigoMipo> I believe Java2K is "probabilistic".
19:23:59 <MigoMipo> Which means that each operation is only "likely" to give the correct result.
19:24:14 <ehird> nutrimatic isn't that, though
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19:36:23 <Sgeo> You have: no tea.
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19:48:01 <coppro> ah... things are finally "working" again
19:48:24 <coppro> I managed to get a backtrace... discovered the bug was in ext4 and the only way to fix was to upgrade to karmic alpha, but that's okay because the development version is probably more stable than my computer was prior
19:49:10 <ehird> K in Wine is working better than K via SSH X11 forwarding to a VM running Ubuntu Server :-P
19:49:24 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Almost_impossible_to_learn_and_apply_esoteric_programming_language
19:49:25 <ehird> awesome programming language.
19:49:31 <ehird> AnMaster: and the bf one.
19:51:57 <coppro> on the plus side, firefox now renders significantly better
19:52:38 <AnMaster> http://esolangs.org/wiki/I_hate_your_bf-derivative_really_I_do <-- quite a confusing language :D
19:53:14 <ehird> You're not meant to think it's :D.
19:53:37 <AnMaster> ehird, why not? Can you tell me if it is TC or not
19:53:48 <ehird> "Whoosh" doesn't quite cut it right now.
19:54:46 <ehird> ais523: could we do a duet "whoosh" or something?
19:54:51 <AnMaster> infinite memory though stack though
19:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I had read half when I noted it was confusing
19:55:05 <ais523> ehird: no need, surely?
19:55:15 <ehird> ais523: the universe is crumbling under the pressure
19:55:27 <ehird> although you could argue that the action is (karmically) its own whoosh
19:57:25 <ehird> wine's file explorer is nifty.
19:57:34 <ehird> remarkably polished
19:59:52 <ehird> i love how k and kdb just dump their files in c:\windows :)
20:00:01 <ehird> admittedly that's just two files for k and one for kdb
20:00:10 <ehird> well, kdb also puts stuff in c:\k.
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20:23:26 <AnMaster> ehird, dumping files in c:\windows sounds like a bad idea to me
20:23:40 <ehird> it's just that it's in %path% by default
20:23:41 <AnMaster> (obviously, it is required for drivers or such)
20:23:49 <ehird> it just writes c:\windows\k.exe and c:\windows\k20.dll
20:23:57 <ehird> kdb writes c:\windows\ksomething.dll
20:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't windows has an alternative way to find apps
20:24:12 <AnMaster> well, I meant, for command line
20:24:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. I'm pretty sure, not well known
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20:25:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it's "app path" or something like that
20:27:18 <ehird> yes, there is %path%.
20:27:32 <ehird> you'd have to go into control panel and change it
20:28:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well actually, what I was thinking about was for something else
20:28:13 <AnMaster> see http://www.codeguru.com/cpp/w-p/dll/article.php/c99
20:28:31 <AnMaster> which indeed does something else
20:31:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.karlrunge.com/x11vnc <-- if you ever need to do that, it works very well
20:32:10 <ehird> i forwarded x11 over ssh, not run an xserver in the vm
20:32:22 <ehird> windows gui with wine is a lot snappier though.
20:33:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of thing like that is there for OS X
20:34:10 <AnMaster> as in, lets say you want to connect to your screen on your desktop from your laptop
20:34:18 <ehird> it has many vnc servers and clients.
20:34:25 <ehird> and also X11, if you want to do X11 apps.
20:34:35 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X comes with VNC server & client
20:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I somehow assumed you would want to run other apps than just X11 ones :P
20:34:48 <ehird> System Preferences → Sharing → Tick "Screen Sharing"
20:35:00 <ehird> you can VNC to servers with finder's Connect to Sever
20:35:51 * coppro just discovered he's been working with an embedded scripting language with interesting potential
20:37:51 <coppro> (it actually doesn't have a name. But it's the script in MSE, so...
20:38:06 <ehird> microsoft script editor?
20:38:24 <ehird> looks like vbscript.
20:39:33 <coppro> a program for creating custom cards (espcially for M:tG, but there are many templates available now)
20:40:56 <coppro> the scripting language is dynamically-scoped, strongly-typed (I think it is now, anyways) and was designed for use with a reflection system that would probably make it attractive for embedding in another program
20:42:15 <coppro> one of the neat features is function composition with + which makes it good for text processing
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20:58:24 * coppro should talk to the project leader about forking it
20:59:46 <oklopol> forking @ function composition?
21:02:25 <oklopol> i was just asking what coppro meant
21:03:30 <coppro> I mean to fork the script into a project of its own
21:03:50 <oklopol> i guess that was the more sensible interpretation
21:04:39 <oklopol> i'm sure you could've meant opening a thread for both functions, and setting up a pipe between them
21:07:39 <coppro> unfortunately, sequential programming is necessary
21:07:50 * coppro is writing in an optimizer though... would you believe it doesn't yet handle tail calls?
21:08:30 <ehird> sounds like a shit language. just use lua.
21:08:43 <olsner> coding sequentially sucks
21:09:42 <coppro> I suppose futures could be implemented, but for all the script does, it's not worth it
21:09:47 <ehird> K guis have no sequential code ;-)
21:10:22 <pikhq> Haskell does not have sequential code (modulo `seq`). The return value of Haskell is sequential code. >:D
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21:12:20 <ehird> coppro: are you sure
21:12:37 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, but you can still code imperatively in haskell
21:12:43 <ehird> the frp gui would look great on haskell
21:13:20 <coppro> ehird: well enough that I no longer get bewildered when they are mentioned
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22:16:30 <Sgeo> Bye for now all!
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00:06:11 <ehird> http://abitbit.com/
00:26:04 <oerjan> keeps getting a 500 error
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02:48:43 <ehird> S..t:".[`D;(;);{. y};S[]];S[.;`f]:9$D[]"
02:48:44 <ehird> S:D:.+(`$'_ci 97+!10;10 30#,"")
02:49:28 <ehird> formulas like a[0]+j[29]
02:50:31 <pikhq> That is pretty awesome.
02:50:41 <ehird> http://imgur.com/n8uHT.png
02:50:46 <ehird> yes, that's a full gui
02:50:55 <ehird> no, there is NO code other than those three lines
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02:51:16 <ehird> ridiculously concise
02:51:54 <pikhq> I feel confident in saying that C is why we can't have nice things.
02:52:00 <ehird> only one caveat: you can't get the formula after entering it; the cell updates but editing it gives the current value and clicking away from it makes it keep that value
02:52:03 <ehird> but that's like a two line fix
02:52:11 <ehird> pikhq: you certainly changed after learning haskell :P
02:52:42 <pikhq> "... You mean there's something actually *better* than tons of boilerplate or ZOMG objects?"
02:52:49 <ehird> incidentally, the entirety of K is 181 kilobytes compiled
02:52:59 <ehird> 3K trivial wrapper k.exe and 178K k20.dll
02:53:07 <ehird> (windows version; gui on linux is iffy)
02:53:14 <ehird> (but sizes are similar)
02:53:27 <ehird> about 60% of the impl is the gui
02:55:54 <ehird> pikhq: oh, and kdb, the column-based db with sql support, http interface including xml/excel export and html/js interface, which powers a bunch of financial institutions?
02:56:10 <pikhq> Part of why I'm bitter about C today is that I've been working with Plof's C FFI today.
02:56:15 <ehird> consisting of .kr files (basically dumped K objects, including code)
02:56:24 <ehird> and one gif for the web interface
02:56:33 <ehird> (.dll files are 8K+16K, ODBC interface)
02:56:44 <pikhq> It is enough to make you despise C.
02:56:46 <ehird> (whole of actual really fast kdb is written in k)
02:57:15 <ehird> it's ridiculous, really
02:58:03 <ehird> disadvantage: hard to use many other languages now
02:58:06 <pikhq> Y'know, I think what I hate most about C is its awful, awful error handling.
02:58:23 <ehird> what i hate most about c is everything.
03:00:04 <ehird> i actually patched k's binary xD
03:00:26 <ehird> it started a console window which on wine was wonky, so i replaced a few bytes with nop and it stopped bringing it up
03:00:36 <ehird> instead using the terminal i started wine from
03:00:45 <ehird> who says you can't improve non-open-source
03:05:29 <ehird> (though i'd prefer it open source. and not circa 2005 due to them going k4/q, which abandons the functional reactive programming gui)
03:11:36 <ehird> pikhq: if you liked that, here's a one-line sudoku solver
03:11:37 <ehird> s:{*(,x)(,/{@[x;y;:;]'&21=x[&|/p[;y]=p]?!10}')/&~x}
03:11:51 <ehird> hmm, though it doesn't run on my k :(
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04:23:58 <ehird> (,!#y),(((#x)-1;1)#1+!#x),\:(#y)#0
04:36:26 <pikhq> main = getArgs >>= readFile . head >>= parse -- I think that Haskell has my favorite file handling.
04:41:08 <ehird> not sure how to do args
04:44:56 <ehird> pikhq: parse(6:_i[0])
04:45:16 <ehird> _i being arguments, 6: being read file as character vector.
04:45:23 <pikhq> ehird: Pretty spiffy.
04:46:33 <pikhq> And a vast improvement on the usual model of "Let's give you fopen and fread and friends".
04:46:52 <ehird> yeah, turns out such atomic operations are totally useless :P
04:49:33 <ehird> pikhq: to parse and read each file,
04:50:16 <ehird> we have to put a colon after 6: to note we mean the monadic (1-arg) version; not the (filename 6: contents) writing version
04:50:32 <ehird> (f' x) is applying f to each element of x
04:50:38 <ehird> _i is args like normal
04:50:54 <ehird> (if we want to each a dyad, it's (list f' list), which does the obvious)
04:51:05 <ehird> (and for an n-adic function, f'[list;list;list;...])
04:52:05 <ehird> pikhq: the haskell equivalent is uhh
04:52:36 <ehird> getArgs >>= mapM readFle >>= fmap (map parse)
04:53:07 <ehird> imo the k is more readable
04:53:17 <pikhq> Bit more verbose than the K, but still rather nice.
04:53:32 <ehird> though (do args <- getArgs; contents <- mapM readFile args; parses <- fmap (map parse)) works too, but is tedious
04:54:05 <pikhq> Bah. fmap (map parse) <<= mapM readFile <<= getArgs
04:54:23 <ehird> readable, but has more cruft than the k version imo
04:55:11 <ehird> pikhq: so, uh, a 512-bit RSA key has been factored
04:55:14 <ehird> http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=8888
04:55:21 <ehird> the TI-83+ OS signing key
04:55:21 <oerjan> that doesn't work with the same parse as above...
04:55:30 <ehird> oerjan: prolly not, whatever
04:55:42 <pikhq> ehird: I am scared.
04:55:47 <oerjan> which gave an IO result
04:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: a high-end pc can do it in 2 months straight
04:56:02 <ehird> so not a great feat
04:56:19 <ehird> As I said on UTI, this took a fair amount of CPU power -- about 73 days of computation -- but it didn't really take a lot of work from me; mostly I just watched the numbers go up, and periodically started up another Msieve run.
04:56:25 <pikhq> ... People use 512-bit encryption?
04:56:42 <ehird> pikhq: in 1999? yes.
04:56:45 <oerjan> getArgs >>= mapM readFile >>= mapM parse
04:57:01 <ehird> oerjan: can't beat parse' 6::'_i
04:57:22 <oerjan> unreadability is hard to beat ;)
04:57:42 <ehird> oerjan: i'll go ask a java programmer what your snippet does.
04:58:13 <pikhq> let g = getArgs; (>) = (>>=); m = mapM; r = readFile in g>m r>m pare
04:58:24 <ehird> now that's unreadable.
04:59:12 <ehird> incidentally, kdb is ridiculously fast.
04:59:38 <ehird> it'd be hard to construct a query on 100,000 records that takes an actually perceptible time
05:00:32 <pikhq> Query: which records, when executed as x86 code, halt within 30 seconds?
05:00:48 <ehird> Good luck formulating that as a ksql query
05:01:01 <ehird> but the answer is likely "all of them".
05:01:50 <ehird> ksql is not strictly sql, btw, although iirc it has an sql9x something in it
05:02:00 <ehird> but ksql itself seems to be nicer than sql.
05:14:38 <ehird> 5:14am; should i sleep?
05:17:18 <pikhq> http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/head/lib/libc/stdlib/rb.h?revision=178995&view=markup This is stunning. Evil, but stunning.
05:17:56 <ehird> pikhq: when should i sleep
05:18:19 <pikhq> This time tomorrow.
05:18:37 <ehird> pikhq: srsly though.
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06:40:44 <AnMaster> ehird (for log reading): There is a good reason to use disk encryption in a laptop, even if you use a bios password: it is easy to take the disk out. If disk is encrypted information will still be unreadable :P
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09:04:01 <oklopol> ehird: pikhq: parse(6:_i[0]) <<< so 6:_i is a character vector, and somehow [0] extracts first line? or how does the parsing go here
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11:00:07 <oklopol> mbs_idx(x) = { n = 2^i; >> n; x | n = 1; i }
11:02:08 <oklopol> i love the muture paradigm, maximizing is a beautiful way to do absolute declarativity
11:02:50 <oklopol> muture is one of my languages, the idea that (>> expr) maximizes the value of expr is from it
11:02:53 <Deewiant> Google gives stuff about "muture women"
11:03:21 <Deewiant> So I guess there's nothing about it anywhere? :-P
11:03:36 <oklopol> it's *my* language, so of course not
11:04:14 <oklopol> well that's not muture code anyway
11:04:34 <oklopol> it's code in a language whose name i haven't even mentioned here
11:04:51 <oklopol> muture i've talked about, here, a bit i use #esoteric as my official specs :P
11:12:01 <lament> maximizing stuff is difficult.
11:13:00 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's at all practical, i'm saying i like to express stuff that way :)
11:13:38 <oklopol> i'm way past caring whether things can be implemented.
11:14:13 <lament> can you maximize user's enjoyment?
11:15:10 <oklopol> no, there are no side-effects
11:17:57 <oklopol> i guess you could add that for debugging, i mean getting a dose of heroin every time there's a bug might make testing much more fun
11:18:04 <oklopol> heroin might not be the best way to go
11:18:40 <oklopol> but something with a better fun/unfun ratio
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12:24:31 * AnMaster is using the bouncer at home through a ssh tunnel
12:25:27 <AnMaster> for ehird when he gets here: login is seriously screwy
12:25:37 <AnMaster> it said it used WPA on the website with config stuff
12:25:55 <AnMaster> it is open and when you try to load anything in a browser you get an *unencrypted* login page
12:26:17 <AnMaster> anyway the bad bit is still to come
12:26:31 <AnMaster> after verifying that, it redirects you to a web page with a broken cert
12:26:45 <AnMaster> and it seems to vary between access points
12:26:58 <AnMaster> always some ip starting at 72.*
12:27:38 <AnMaster> traceroute refuses to work here for some reason
12:29:02 <AnMaster> would collide with virtualbox, need to adjust that to use the third private range I guess
12:29:09 <AnMaster> since I use 192.168.0.x at home
12:30:15 <AnMaster> oh and I got a pass card thingy heh
12:30:43 <AnMaster> haven't found anywhere to try it yet
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12:37:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh wait, you didn't try to mean that what I said really meant "founded"
12:38:12 <AnMaster> I misunderstood you, misunderstanding me
12:38:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, it hasn't started fully, however they have a math course starting two weeks before... it is repetition of high school basically
12:39:03 <AnMaster> and, a better teacher than I had at high school
12:39:13 <Deewiant> So only first-years are there?
12:39:52 <AnMaster> and well, in two weeks I start at studying to dataingengör
12:40:03 <Deewiant> But you said it hasn't started fully
12:40:14 <Deewiant> And that you only have some kind of repetitiony math course
12:40:21 <AnMaster> screen a bit hard to read, ubuntu auto dimmed it
12:40:25 <Deewiant> Which, to me, suggests that it's some kind of extra thing for first-years
12:40:29 <AnMaster> you said "first-years", not "first year"
12:41:06 <AnMaster> well, a few others iirc, studying to become teachers, and deciding to take the course
12:41:19 <AnMaster> but most of the ~50 people were first-years at uni yes
12:41:32 <Deewiant> Well yeah, obviously the teachers and assistants for you guys etc :-)
12:41:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I find the wlan login amusing, suspending for a few minutes doesn't seem to log you out always, only sometimes
12:42:06 <AnMaster> why the hell can't I do a traceroute OR tracepath from here
12:43:03 <oklopol> ah so you do officially start at the same time we do
12:43:23 <AnMaster> awkward chairs for using computers on a table in front
12:43:55 <AnMaster> I have to find somewhere else if I don't want my back to start hurting more than it already started, brb, *disconnects from bouncer*
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13:07:59 <Deewiant> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644936(VS.85,loband).aspx - a BOOL-returning function that can return zero, nonzero, or -1
13:09:11 <AnMaster> too much work to click with the () IN IT
13:09:20 <AnMaster> not sure what happened there to the keyboard
13:10:53 <oklopol> luckily i have a modern client that makes it easy to click even links with parens!
13:13:01 <AnMaster> but meh, only links with parens in I can recall atm are the msdn ones
13:13:25 <oklopol> mine fails for (url), which is far more common
13:14:34 <oklopol> easy to make both work ofc, but i have no idea how to fix that in nnscript, so i guess you win
13:15:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they seem to be url encoded there
13:15:48 <AnMaster> at least, most people post them that way
13:15:49 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar_(disambiguation)
13:15:55 <Deewiant> Doesn't look URL encoded to me
13:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, when I copy it, it ends up url encoded
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13:55:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, on there I was, since I installed using ubuntu
13:55:24 <AnMaster> whatever is the next last version
13:56:09 <AnMaster> when the old one stopped being supported
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15:22:44 <Deewiant> Oho, the first spammer to send mail to one of my plus addresses
15:25:04 <Deewiant> Put e-mail addresses on the WWW and it will come
15:25:16 <Deewiant> Though it might take a while, like it did now
15:31:05 <FireFly> I just get spam on my real adresses ._.
15:32:33 <oklopol> Deewiant: i don't think i have the energy for that
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15:51:16 <ehird> tunes.org seems down
15:51:45 <ehird> 22:40:44 <AnMaster> ehird (for log reading): There is a good reason to use disk encryption in a laptop, even if you use a bios password: it is easy to take the disk out. If disk is encrypted information will still be unreadable :P
15:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I'm assume a laptop like mine where you can take the disk out in a minute or so.
15:52:51 <ehird> my harddrive is terribly boring
15:52:51 <AnMaster> rather than something like an unibody mac
15:53:08 <ehird> you just get a screwdriver, take off three
15:53:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought unibody ones were harder
15:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is a unibody in two parts? :D
15:53:34 <ehird> you may be thinking of the battery, which lasts 3x as long as usual batteries and can't be replaced
15:53:51 <AnMaster> I assumed everything was as bad as that
15:54:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it can be replaced, actually.
15:54:13 <ehird> you just send it away
15:54:25 <ehird> (or destroy your warranty by doing it yourself)
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15:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I'm glad I didn't get a larger battery
15:54:58 <AnMaster> it wouldn't have fitted in this laptop backpack. So I would have had to get the model for 17" laptops
15:55:12 <ehird> my laptop will be 12.1"
15:55:14 <AnMaster> as it is, it is maybe half a cm in the relevant direction that is free
15:55:19 <ehird> so I'll be hard pressed to find a bag it doesn't fit in
15:55:26 <ehird> even with a 30 cell battery :P
15:55:31 <ehird> maybe not 31 though!
15:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, bag made for 15.4" widescreen. Laptop is 15.4" widescreen
15:56:03 <AnMaster> but not a lot of space free around that
15:56:23 <AnMaster> (in the computer section I mean)
15:56:24 <ehird> 12.1" + 9 cell is smaller than a 13.3", prolly
15:56:27 <ehird> it just sticks out an inch
15:56:40 <ehird> i thought the screen might be too small but it looks fine
15:58:34 <ehird> So, let's golf Hamming distance: error out if the two strings aren't the same length, then return the number of characters that they differ by. Define it as a two-argument function "ham".
15:58:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I now have my own card to pass Doors
15:59:06 <AnMaster> lets hope I won't have as much trouble as ais did
15:59:09 <ehird> why do Doors even exist.
15:59:15 <ehird> we need to trust people more.
15:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, to prevent People from Entering certain Rooms
15:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: do ↑↑ the golfing in erlang?
16:00:04 <ehird> i'm interested in seeing how much it FAILS HORRIBLY
16:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I can understand them, expensive computers. Sure you don't want students from other parts of the university to use the computers meant for _your_ students
16:00:49 <AnMaster> if they want they could go to the ones in the library instead
16:01:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, read log to see how whacky the wlan login they use is
16:01:05 <ehird> if they're not being used, it doesn't hurt anybody; and besides, dammit, if you think your students are gonna ruin everything they shouldn't be your students
16:01:27 <ehird> 03:17:57 <oklopol> i guess you could add that for debugging, i mean getting a dose of heroin every time there's a bug might make testing much more fun
16:01:42 <ehird> until you just start adding bugs on purpos
16:01:48 <pikhq> ham xs ys | length xs == length ys = undefined | otherwise = length [ x : y | x<-xs, y<-ys, x != y] -- Like that?
16:02:03 <pikhq> Not much golf there, though.
16:02:17 <ehird> pikhq: Dayum bitch that's some verbosity.
16:02:19 <ehird> 04:25:55 <AnMaster> it is open and when you try to load anything in a browser you get an *unencrypted* login page
16:02:19 <ehird> 04:26:01 <AnMaster> which says it is using ssl
16:02:20 <ehird> 04:26:05 <AnMaster> as in the text
16:02:20 <ehird> 04:26:07 <AnMaster> but it doesn't
16:02:26 <ehird> <form action="https://
16:03:00 <pikhq> ehird: That's because Haskell has the idea of composing functions, rather than offering array primitives.
16:03:26 <ehird> btw k has some composition stuff.
16:03:30 <ehird> it's a very functional language.
16:03:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well, can't check until tomorrow, but firefox told me I was submitting the data to an unencrypted page
16:03:48 <ehird> are described as a data structure
16:03:53 <pikhq> [$K|ham:{+/~x=y}|] -- If someone bothers implementing K in Template Haskell.
16:03:58 <ehird> all the computation is done via dependencies, and is pure
16:04:04 <ehird> well doesn't have to be
16:04:46 <ehird> 05:10:53 <oklopol> luckily i have a modern client that makes it easy to click even links with parens!
16:04:46 <ehird> shut up, I'm the one who says things like that
16:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, the estimated battery time is pessimistic, it lasts about 150% of that
16:09:52 <ehird> so about 3 hours? :P
16:10:03 <AnMaster> ehird, estimated is 2 hours and 50 minutes
16:10:11 <ehird> nine hours in your face.
16:10:20 <ehird> (doesn't sound like a good way to spend time HUR HUR)
16:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't need that, lots of outlets around uni
16:10:36 <ehird> great, a portable computer that isn't portable
16:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it is. but I could get an ultrabay batter should it be needed
16:11:20 <AnMaster> since I'm not likely to use the cd drive a lot
16:12:20 <ehird> ah, was it sunny today?
16:12:28 <ehird> need to know about the daylight dammit :P
16:13:11 <ehird> i missed "and I was indoors" and wondered how rain and wifi caused cloudiness
16:13:18 <ehird> i guess in the same way it causes cancer
16:15:31 <ehird> http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2009/08/qaddafi-0908-ps01.jpg
16:15:31 <ehird> this is an awesome picture
16:15:40 <ehird> spot the odd one out!
16:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, the one in white? with a black cape thingy
16:16:18 <ehird> Congratulations, AnMaster. You are not conclusively proved retarded by that observation.
16:16:21 <AnMaster> other ones are politicians or similar
16:16:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, they're all heads of state.
16:16:35 <ehird> Qaddafi is just batshit.
16:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the one in white with a cape too?
16:16:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi
16:34:03 <oklopol> ehird: shut up, I'm the one who says things like that <<< i say kinda stuff that to AnMaster all the time
16:34:15 <ehird> since recently, yes
16:35:41 <ehird> let's be ha-AnMaster-your-computer-sucks buddies
16:35:47 <oklopol> i used to do it before AnMaster, praising windows
16:36:10 <oklopol> when others had a problem my win didn't have
16:36:22 <oklopol> well, weird pluralization, but anyway
16:36:57 <ehird> it's hard to beat windows for compatibility
16:37:02 <ehird> modern linux is pretty good tho.
16:38:26 <oklopol> well i don't care about compatibility, more you know irrelevant details, just to annoy whoever's having problems
16:38:36 <oklopol> not sure i've done it that much, but occasionally.
16:38:45 <ehird> "Elements of G(4) continue to increase for a while, but at base 3 x 2^402653209, they reach the maximum of 3 x 2^402653210 - 1, stay there for the next 3 x 2^402653209 steps, and then begin their first and final descent."
16:46:29 <ehird> oklopol: maybe your J will be a worthy opponent to my K golfing!
16:46:53 <ehird> oklopol: or muture xD
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16:54:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein's_theorem
16:54:29 <oklopol> and how does the ham work?
16:54:38 <ehird> oklopol: +/ is sum obviously
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16:54:45 <ehird> x=y is atomic =; strings are vectors of characters
16:54:49 <ehird> so it's mapped over
16:55:02 <ehird> so we map all chars to whether they're equal or not
16:55:14 <ehird> oklopol: works for any list.
16:55:29 <oklopol> well yes, but i thought they were numbers, because i'm an idiot
16:55:55 <ehird> it even works for things like
16:55:56 <ehird> ham[(1 2 3; 4 5 6);(1 2 6; 4 5 3)]
16:57:33 <oklopol> so those are matrices, and the rows are being compared separately
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17:00:38 <ehird> the same-length-and-structure requirement is enforced by =
17:01:01 <ehird> oklopol: but it works for any dimension list:
17:01:02 <ehird> ham[((1 2 3; 4 5 6); (7 8 9; 10 11 12));((1 2 6; 4 5 7); (1 8 9; 10 4 12))]
17:01:08 <ehird> (that being (1 0 1; 0 1 1))
17:02:07 <ehird> (because newline = ;)
17:02:48 <oklopol> and can you "box" those two matrices so that equality has infinite rank?
17:03:43 <ehird> no boxing, but I think you can do infinite rank
17:03:48 <ehird> I'd have to look it up
17:04:19 <ehird> <K> error <me> k, K
17:04:34 <ehird> ~ is infinite-rank = in itself
17:09:33 <ehird> oklopol: [17:08] kpierre_: k doesn't have ranks
17:09:34 <ehird> [17:08] kpierre_: unlike other apls
17:13:20 <ehird> oklopol: it's a jabber chat and i'd have to ask them if you could come.
17:13:26 <ehird> i can if you want.
17:13:50 <oklopol> i'd have to look up jabber chat first
17:13:55 <Deewiant> ham=(.)(.)(.)sum$zipWith(((.).(.))fromEnum(/=)) but doesn't error out on unequal-length lists
17:14:06 <ehird> Deewiant: man hasksell is lame.
17:14:30 <oklopol> is jabber an alternative to irc
17:14:32 <Deewiant> Of course if we had a better Prelude that could be something like ham=sum.:zipWith'(fromEnum.:(/=))
17:14:38 <oklopol> GregorR-L: that was pretty lame
17:14:45 <Deewiant> (A more anal zipWith and (.:)=(.).(.))
17:14:47 <ehird> oklopol: jabber's an alternative to both msn/aim/etc and irc
17:14:56 <ehird> i use bitlbee so it's just an irc channel to me.
17:15:12 <ehird> oklopol: http://register.jabber.org/
17:15:18 <ehird> username, password twice, captcha, click register
17:15:21 <ehird> and you have an account
17:15:32 <oklopol> but i'd have to get a program too
17:15:42 <ehird> yeah, like 3 more clicks
17:15:57 <ehird> oklopol: how about I ask them first so you feel an obligation if they say yes.
17:16:04 <oklopol> i'd be there a few times, then stop
17:16:17 <oklopol> ehird: no i won't, don't be silly
17:16:21 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.jabbear.com/en/
17:16:55 <oklopol> hmm, turns out i need to leave right now
17:20:14 <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ...
17:21:13 <ehird> `addquote <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
17:21:17 <HackEgo> 71|<GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
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17:43:31 <ais523> hmm... it seems our heroic anti-troll is PuzzleHunter84
17:44:03 <ehird> Interesting idea, but how can it possibly work? (Even if it doesn't) --Zzo38 03:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
17:44:03 <ehird> —Talk:Almost impossible to learn and apply esoteric programming language
17:44:27 <ehird> ais523: oh, I don't think he's a troll, oh dear
17:44:44 <ehird> ais523: here's why I think so
17:44:49 <ehird> he says he made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline
17:44:49 <ais523> no, I think zzo38's reaction towards that is the same as my reaction towards TURKEY BOMB
17:45:03 <ehird> he says he made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline
17:45:11 <ehird> which is close to the generic cookie-cutter esolang we all hate
17:45:25 <ehird> the BF derivative acronyms as Ihybrid
17:45:32 <ehird> which suggests the title may be a joke, and was just picked to acronym like that
17:45:39 <ehird> he says he's going to try and implement the other one
17:45:54 <ais523> I don't think the author of ihybrid is a troll
17:45:56 <ehird> "I'm working on it and it will hopefully work. It is going to be incredibly complex and difficult to understand and even I wouldn't attempt to make a working interpreter. It'll hopefully be pretty close to Malbolge in the amount of confusion to be caused, but simple programs will hopefully be easier to write than in Malboge."
17:46:01 <ehird> doesn't even seem joking at all
17:46:09 <ehird> the languages are serious
17:46:11 <ehird> is what I'm saying
17:46:26 <ais523> yes, I don't see why they can't be
17:46:44 <ehird> ...then how is it a counter troll
17:46:50 <ais523> and topline is relatively cookie-cutter, but not nearly as much as, say, Minimal
17:47:01 <ehird> it's not a counter troll because he's being sincere with the language
17:47:05 <ais523> topline isn't counter-trolling; I think ihybrid may be, though
17:47:09 <ehird> I don't think he's trolling Minimal, I think it's a coincidence
17:47:14 <ehird> The name was almost certainly picked for the acronym
17:47:38 <ais523> it may be a complaint against BF-derivatives in general
17:47:39 <ehird> and considering the rest of the evidence, it seems like he might actually be part of the crappy BF derivative/zomgz really hard language brigade
17:47:53 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but I find that unlikely given:
17:47:58 <ehird> "I'm working on it and it will hopefully work. It is going to be incredibly complex and difficult to understand and even I wouldn't attempt to make a working interpreter. It'll hopefully be pretty close to Malbolge in the amount of confusion to be caused, but simple programs will hopefully be easier to write than in Malboge."
17:48:17 <ehird> because I can easily see "Almost impossible to learn and apply esoteric programming language" being a tongue in cheek, but sincere, name for a "zomg hard!!11" esolang
17:48:44 <ais523> my guess is it's meant to be hard to write in and harder to implement
17:48:47 <ais523> and very underspecified
17:49:01 <ehird> see, I think given the other evidence, the underspecification isn't intentional, per se
17:49:14 <ehird> and it leads me to believe that he's just whimsical with names for his sincere-but-terrible languages
17:49:20 <ehird> esp. given ihybrid's acronym
17:51:04 <ehird> so I guess our brains are the counter-trolls for thinking it was :)
17:51:06 <ehird> we could just ask the guy.
17:52:37 <ais523> oh well, unintentional counter-trolling is still counter-trolling
17:52:53 <ehird> ais523: by that logic, Minimal is counter-trolling
17:53:16 <ais523> counter-trolling what, though?
17:53:26 <ehird> terrible BF derivatives
17:54:13 <ais523> you've just given me an urge to post BF without ] onto the wiki again
17:54:26 <ais523> come to think of it, if you assumed the ]s went at the end of the program, would it be TC?
17:54:38 <ehird> +[code] with skip-next-if-true is TC
17:54:51 <ehird> *skip-next-if-false
17:55:14 <ehird> what about without [
17:55:22 <ehird> we infer where the [ is
17:55:30 <ais523> that's much harder to infer
17:55:31 <ehird> based on when we made a pertinent change to the current cell
18:06:44 <AnMaster> why does the password thingy at the uni forbid passwords ending with a digit
18:06:53 <AnMaster> and only allow between 6 and 8 letters
18:06:59 <ais523> to stop people just incrementing a number at the end whenever they have to change their password
18:07:09 <AnMaster> ais523, they could increment in the middle
18:07:10 <ais523> there's more or less an infinite number of password security misconceptions
18:07:16 <ais523> I think you just ran into one of them
18:07:25 <AnMaster> ais523, they also forbid at the start
18:07:50 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, how is the Door nowdays?
18:08:14 <ais523> AnMaster: haven't gone to that department for a while, I've graduated
18:08:26 <AnMaster> ais523, so what department are you at then
18:08:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and now I have my own Door card. For the local university here
18:09:04 <AnMaster> I hope I won't have issues with it
18:11:22 <ehird> i shouldn't learn good languages
18:13:20 <ehird> what has been learnt cannot be unlearnt
18:13:31 <ehird> or actually the other way around. i think K has made me unlearn the "art" of writing useless metacode.
18:16:30 <ehird> anything that isn't directly related to the actual thing being done
18:16:47 <ehird> every language has it by necessity. it's just that almost every other non-K language has a whole heap more.
18:17:10 <ehird> (one of the worst offenders is imperative code; that paradigm is _all_ metacode)
18:17:31 <ais523> ehird: and some imperative langs more than others
18:17:47 <ais523> in ADA, you need an emacs macro just to write a loop without dying of boredom
18:17:51 <ehird> I'm just saying that imperative code inherently has metagunk
18:17:52 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about this autumn. Will you go to university then
18:18:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, starting on a PhD hopefully
18:18:42 <ehird> ais523: please, make it involve esolangs
18:18:56 <ais523> well, it's in computer science
18:19:01 <ais523> so it's likely to end up tangentially related
18:19:04 <ais523> probably no more than that, though
18:19:14 <ehird> ais523 and follow the time-honoured naming tradition of "Meaningless Catchy Title: Long String of Specific Jargon"?
18:19:39 <ehird> YOU ARE TOO EDGY AND UNCONVENTIONAL
18:19:52 <ehird> AnMaster: The original, afaik, was Bananas in Space: Extending Fold and Unfold to Exponential Types
18:19:55 <ehird> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.1.7380
18:20:08 <fizzie> Here's a more complicated title-decomposition: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=718
18:20:59 <ehird> academia is awesome.
18:22:25 <ehird> the hardest part of doing a phd must be picking a really obscure topic.
18:22:33 <ehird> i like to imagine you optimise for that.
18:23:05 <pikhq> Hmm. Thesis on the optimisation of Brainfuck?
18:23:23 <ehird> pikhq: despite appearances possibly gleaned from listening to AnMaster, it's not actually all that interesting or hard
18:23:40 <ehird> not nearly impossible enough for a phd.
18:23:47 <pikhq> ehird: It's obscure.
18:23:52 <AnMaster> okay, I know why the password is so limited now in length, it needs to be possible to enter on the photocopiers :D
18:23:54 <pikhq> And if you wanted to, you could make it hard.
18:24:04 <AnMaster> I bet they can't handle more than a limited length
18:24:05 <ehird> pikhq: (a) not the only criteria, and not THAT obscure
18:24:19 <ehird> AnMaster: what length
18:24:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well, considering there is a photo of one in the manual page of how to use one that says 0/10 entered
18:24:52 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Try to create a language that is as hard to optimise as possible.
18:25:10 <ehird> i doubt it's just because of the photocopiers.
18:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well, see above I mentioned it there
18:25:26 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a "no number at start or end" too
18:25:41 <ehird> length 8 maximum is common
18:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how many people use the MUA Eudora
18:27:42 <ehird> in the past, many many many people
18:27:53 <ehird> today? Eudora 8 (mozilla based), probably like 5
18:27:56 <ehird> older versions, quite a few
18:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well, the uni has setup instructions for Eudora 6.2, and outlook express, but none for thunderbird
18:28:27 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:28:35 <AnMaster> it is plain IMAP and works in thunderbird though
18:28:52 <AnMaster> ehird, there are wlan setup instructions for XP, 2000 and 9x
18:28:58 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:28:58 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:29:11 <ehird> then why are you mentioning it
18:29:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I just find it funny
18:30:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh there is a guide how to install some root cert they use, to make those invalid certs work
18:30:40 <AnMaster> there is a download for that cert, over http
18:31:01 * AnMaster is not going to do that without verifying the checksum with tech support
18:31:13 <ehird> like that'll happen
18:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, fingerprint then?
18:31:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> Hello, what is the checksum for the root certificate?
18:31:39 <ehird> <Tech support> Is your computer turned on?
18:31:43 <ehird> <AnMaster> Yes, what is the checksum?
18:31:46 <AnMaster> ehird, even funnier, it first gave 404, but when I changed the year part of it to the current year it worked
18:31:48 <ehird> <Tech support> OK, does "google.com" work?
18:31:51 <ehird> <AnMaster> Yes, what is the checksum?
18:32:00 <ehird> <Tech support> Okay, try shutting it down and starting it up again.
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18:32:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you can right click cert in windows and get it
18:32:24 <GregorR-L> Gee, I was just about to ghost 'im too.
18:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, funny thing is, that some certs they use are valid
18:34:17 <AnMaster> where in this context valid = firefox doesn't complain
18:35:05 <AnMaster> oh my... "Microsoft Developers Network Academic Alliance"
18:36:45 <ehird> It's obviously a terrible and incomprehensible idea because it has Microsoft in the name.
18:36:54 <ehird> MSDN Academic Alliance (MSDNAA) is a Microsoft program available to academic organizations, mainly colleges and universities, although there is also a high school version. The participating schools pay an annual fee for the MSDNAA service, in exchange for which, applicable departments (computer science, computer engineering, information technology, and related fields of that organization) as well as students and faculty can acquire licensed copies of Microsof
18:37:11 <ehird> t Windows, Visual Studio and other products. The list of software each college and university gets is dependent on the agreements made by that particular organization.
18:37:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a terrible idea to promote microsoft this way! ;P
18:38:01 <fizzie> Our Windows box here is courtesy of MSDNAA.
18:38:15 * AnMaster stabs the pdf viewer several times
18:38:54 <AnMaster> it defaults to non-continuous scrolling, so I need to change every time I open a pdf file...
18:41:52 <fizzie> Oh? At least here Evince remembers the "continuous" setting.
18:41:55 <ehird> I hate learning new languages. It makes me want to write programs. :P
18:41:58 <fizzie> Well, for one PDF file, anyway.
18:42:20 <ehird> fizzie: Your logic and facts cannot stand in the way of our irrational hatred of Gnome and its WAR ON FREEDOM AND CHOICE!
18:42:39 <fizzie> It seems to be a bit document-specific indeed. Somehow.
18:42:52 <ehird> Okay, *that's* weird.
18:44:15 <ais523> I can confirm that; Evince persists information per-file
18:44:21 <ais523> it even remembers the location you've scrolled to
18:44:34 <ais523> closing Evince, therefore, can be undone just by opening it again
18:44:39 <ais523> it's an interesting paradigm
18:44:54 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to write per-file things to ~/.gnome2/evince/ev-metadata.xml.
18:45:20 <ehird> the scrolling thing makes sense
18:45:23 <ehird> document-based paradigm
18:45:30 <ehird> and that makes the viewing mode make sorta sense
18:45:37 <ehird> but it could do with a global preference for a default
18:46:36 <fizzie> I have a hunch the default is what-it-used-to-be-in-the-last-open-document, though I didn't really do extensive tests on that.
18:46:56 <ehird> (That also makes sense.)
18:47:22 <fizzie> Yes, I think it takes them from the <document uri="last-used-value" atime="1250530794"> element.
18:47:38 <ehird> So you have to use it at 1250530794 unix time for it to take effect?
18:48:05 <fizzie> The atime is probably for expiration. It seems to remember 15 latest documents there.
18:48:41 <ehird> It was a joke; surely 1250530794 is like, now?
18:48:44 <ehird> Minus some seconds.
18:48:50 <ehird> I was joking that it searched for exactly that time.
18:56:50 <pikhq> So, I just got one of my textbooks. It is apparently not for sale in the US.
18:57:17 <pikhq> Would explain why it cost $30 instead of $200.
18:57:47 <GregorR-L> Wooh unbelievable cost of textbooks!
19:00:04 <AnMaster> okay, part of the university website (a part called "e-blackboard"), refuses to accept firefox, user agent made that work, but it then refuses to accept jre 1.6, it wants jre 1.4
19:00:32 <pikhq> It is quite stunning that they charge so dramatically more for the US.
19:00:44 <ehird> AnMaster: old code.
19:01:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that should run in 1.6 VM too
19:01:31 <ehird> Not if they check (vm==1.4) to weed out old versions.
19:02:20 <GregorR-L> Your university is quickly achieving a high score on the suckomiter.
19:02:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that is just silly, since there is a link to some .com thingy at the bottom, as who made it
19:03:03 <AnMaster> anyway, they will run into issues
19:03:15 <AnMaster> most modern systems wouldn't have JRE 1.4 any more
19:03:34 <pikhq> I don't think JRE 1.4 exists for my architecture.
19:03:38 <AnMaster> they also use open source, for the bit that works best
19:04:03 <AnMaster> no idea what company is behind that
19:07:53 -!- ehird has set topic: Sinnax Cossack's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:08:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like the name of a shop in nethack
19:09:00 <ehird> Sinnax Cossack's. Say it fast.
19:09:15 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know how to pronounce it
19:09:21 <ehird> Like "Sinnax Cossack's".
19:09:34 <ehird> It'll work just about any way.
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19:11:20 <ehird> GregorR: Say it fast dammit.
19:11:25 <ehird> Also, pay attention to the following word.
19:12:18 <GregorR-L> How about you win the ability to realize that "ex" and "ax" aren't pronounced the same way X_X
19:12:48 <ehird> In my dialect, at least, "Sinnax Cossack's" sounds quite like "sin(x) cos(x)".
19:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, GA? Generic American?
19:13:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "Well! I *am* a faggot."
19:14:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: "Schwer"
19:22:41 <AnMaster> then I much prefer american English
19:22:49 <AnMaster> even if I can't understand that
19:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3
19:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it is fine to begin with
19:24:33 <AnMaster> it is just 5 minutes and 12 seconds long
19:24:35 <ehird> isn't that australian
19:25:48 <ehird> I meant, why do you prefer australian english, and prefer it to what
19:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it sounds quaint, doesn't it?
19:26:40 <ehird> that was not my question
19:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, as for "to what": American English
19:26:51 <ehird> and why, you didn't give a reason, it was completely without context
19:27:33 <ehird> [19:22] AnMaster: then I much prefer american English
19:27:37 <ehird> There was nothing attached to "then"
19:27:46 <ehird> <AnMaster> Then I like cake
19:27:51 <ehird> <ehird> then I much prefer green cake
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19:27:57 <AnMaster> it was connected to the above discussion
19:28:07 <ehird> yes, but the above discussion had no obvious thing to point out as a reason for that
19:28:24 <ehird> I don't think you understand what the word "then" means.
19:28:42 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, I just skipped some logical steps
19:28:58 <ehird> AnMaster: we call printing out these logical steps "communication"
19:29:00 <AnMaster> considering dialects or a while
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, we wouldn't have had this discussion without me doing that
19:29:29 <AnMaster> so it would have been dead and quiet
19:29:48 <ehird> I think you just put words together and hope they make any kind of sense.
19:29:55 <ehird> My brain's hurting just trying to comprehend anything you've said.
19:45:52 <ehird> get:{x[&x[;0]~\:y;1]}
19:45:52 <ehird> table:(("hello";"world");("goodbye";"cruel");("foobar";"baz"))
19:45:52 <ehird> get[table;"hello"]
19:46:08 <ehird> i can read x[&x[;0]~\:y;1] unaided, which I guess means there's no going back now
19:49:05 <Deewiant> I wonder what the next "heee fun" thing will be
19:49:25 <Deewiant> Hasn't it been Haskell -> Factor -> K now? :-P
19:49:29 <Deewiant> Or am I swapping the former two
19:50:07 <ehird> Haskell I learned longer ago
19:50:14 <ehird> and have liked pretty much continually since
19:50:21 <ehird> factor i dabbled with just a bit
19:50:28 <ehird> forth has been the most recent one
19:50:35 <Deewiant> I'm going mostly by how much you've been hyping something here
19:50:45 <ehird> it's just awesome.
19:51:01 <Deewiant> We've had the discussion about the meaning of "to hype" before, I'm not going to reiterate :-P
19:51:08 <ehird> and it has more appeal than the ones I've actually hyped, since I can actually make stuff with it in a few lines
19:51:11 <ehird> Deewiant: err, no we haven't
19:51:46 <Deewiant> I'd grep it from the logs if I weren't booted into Windows
19:56:03 <ehird> "Note that this web site will close down on December 18, 1999."
19:56:16 <ais523> ehird: is that on a current website?
19:56:27 <ehird> Not updated, but it's there.
19:56:40 <ehird> I bet it's been on every todo list since.
19:56:58 <Deewiant> (http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/prechelt/phonecode/)
19:58:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I suppose you know that ais523 can't use google :P
19:58:43 <ais523> oh, I didn't even want to visit the page, just to know that it existed
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19:59:23 <Deewiant> I believe in pressing Alt+D,Ctrl+C,Alt+Tab,Ctrl+V,Enter,Alt+Tab to ten other people typing something into google
20:02:02 <ehird> I was referencing the fact that ais523 refuses to google things and when presented with a URL usually asks the linker to summarise it for em.
20:02:28 <Deewiant> Oh, he refuses to Google as well?
20:03:30 <ehird> yes, whenever he asks a trivial question and I say "you could just google that in half the time and bother less people" he refuses.
20:05:04 <ais523> ehird: I consider getting information from people more reliable than getting it from computers
20:05:21 <ehird> (this is despite the fact that when I answer such questions I almost always use google)
20:05:36 <ehird> But it's the human touch of the nickname next to it, isn't it.
20:05:50 <ais523> oh, I assumed people were answering from personal knowledge
20:06:07 <ais523> or at least, if I look it up on the Internet, I already know which site/page to look on
20:06:30 <ehird> I don't know half of the things you ask about, so of course I google them
20:06:51 <ehird> and find an answer in a few seconds, vs the ~30 seconds it takes from you asking to me rewording and sending an answer from google.
20:15:02 <oklopol> i think the reason i hate googling and reading linked pages so much is that they take so long to open
20:15:08 <oklopol> because i have a crappy connection
20:15:27 <ehird> oklopol: disable all css!
20:15:44 <ehird> oh, and javascript.
20:15:48 <ehird> hard to make that slow. even on dialup.
20:15:49 <oklopol> i mean of course that's not my rational reason to hate googling, since it's still pretty *fast*, it's just annoying
20:16:01 <oklopol> i want things to be instant
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20:19:08 <oklokok> out of interest, if i disable css, how will the browser inform the server about that?
20:19:20 <ehird> it just won't load css files
20:19:21 <oklokok> i guess it could just not load it.
20:19:26 <ehird> if there's some inline in the page it will just ignore them
20:19:32 <oklokok> i forgot people usually separate them :P
20:19:48 <oklokok> not that i even know how to inline it
20:20:25 <oklokok> i mean if they were usually inlined, then obviously disabling wouldn't help
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20:21:30 <ehird> oklokok: it would slightly
20:21:33 <ehird> since rendering time would be quicker
20:21:35 <ehird> esp for complex css
20:21:38 <ehird> due to the box model stuff
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20:37:58 <pikhq> Y'know, music radio is terrible.
20:38:36 <pikhq> There is exactly one station I can bear listening to. The local NPR syndicate.
20:38:41 <pikhq> Erm. Not syndicate.
20:38:44 <pikhq> But local NPR station.
20:39:48 <pikhq> (listening for emergency weather info)
20:40:08 <ehird> have you guys ever considered living in a country where they don't get emergency weather.
20:41:28 <pikhq> Moving is non-trivial.
20:41:36 <pikhq> Especially when you have *that* as a criteria.
20:43:00 <pikhq> Ah well. I can deal with listening to "Mozart Monday".
20:45:23 <pikhq> Now if only FM radio didn't suck, quality-wise.
20:45:43 <ehird> just listen to internet radio.
20:46:21 <pikhq> Note: Internet not stable.
20:46:27 <pikhq> Also, bandwidth cap.
20:46:57 <ehird> just listen to TCP/IP/FM radio
20:54:23 <pikhq> FM-over-IP-over-TCP
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21:02:14 <pikhq> Sure. We send an audio waveform over AM, and modulate the frequency of that.
21:02:43 <oklokok> that's them combined, "over" would imply an asymmetric thingie
21:03:04 <ehird> just send FM data over AM
21:03:09 <ehird> it'll just come in slower
21:03:12 <ehird> so you'll have to buffer it
21:03:13 <oklokok> but i guess i'm only saying that because i was just about to say the exact same thing
21:03:33 <pikhq> ehird: Does not work that way.
21:03:37 <pikhq> FM and AM are analog.
21:03:51 <ais523> pikhq: FM-over-AM would give you a very low information rate
21:04:15 <ais523> actually, only half what you'd get otherwise in a physically ideal situation
21:04:23 <ehird> so just buffer it :P
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21:04:34 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, so you would have an *absurdly* low dynamic range.
21:04:49 <ehird> just stretch it out
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21:05:24 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Y'know, music radio is terrible. <-- not in Sweden. We have classical music on P2
21:05:24 <pikhq> ehird: Congrats, you've increased the SNR, but not the dynamic range.
21:05:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, we have classical on NPR. And that's all there was worth listening to.
21:05:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless they happen to broadcast news in minority languages
21:05:57 <pikhq> Is *good* rock too much to ask for? (yes)
21:06:07 <ehird> <AnMaster> NO SUCH THING
21:06:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, since it basically is so rare :P
21:06:13 <ehird> <AnMaster> CLASSICAL IS THE ONLY LISTENABLE THING EVERRRRRRRR
21:06:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> ALSO oklokok I THOUGHT YOU LIKED METAL. THAT'S THE SAME AS ROCK
21:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, I like some baroque music too
21:06:34 <AnMaster> and music from the romantic period
21:06:37 <ehird> AnMaster: same thing
21:06:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it's not. It's just not shoved on the radio much.
21:06:47 <GregorR> Romantic is better than both.
21:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: And rock and metal aren't the same thing too.
21:06:55 <ehird> But let's play by your rules!
21:07:02 <ehird> Classical=baroque=romantic.
21:07:07 <ehird> It's all boring things with strings.
21:07:10 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yes! /me shoves borodin down your throat
21:07:11 <pikhq> Okay, what should I listen to after Kansas's "Magnum Opus". Hmm.
21:07:18 <ehird> Just like rock and metal are both noisy things with distorted guitars.
21:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I accepted that they may differ. Months ago
21:07:36 <GregorR> ehird: And they're all soundy things with instruments that make notes
21:07:49 <ehird> GregorR: They're all made of atoms
21:07:52 <pikhq> GregorR: You win an Egobot.
21:07:56 <ehird> They're all made of quarks
21:08:01 <ehird> Also they're all energy
21:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well, personally I find it hard to notice the difference. But I accept an expert might notice it.
21:08:07 <ehird> In conclusion, everything is the same.
21:08:10 <ehird> AnMaster: "an expert" XD
21:08:18 <oklokok> as i don't give an absolute shit about instruments, rock and metal have much less to do with each other than say metal and classical
21:08:21 <ehird> GregorR: But what about things that aren't but might WILL BE.
21:08:24 <ehird> They are all CONCEPTS.
21:08:38 <oklokok> i've probably mentioned my opinions on the matter though
21:08:43 <ehird> oklokok: nonsense, metal is crude music for the hoi polloi
21:08:47 <oklokok> i've probably mentioned that too
21:08:47 <pikhq> oklokok: True. Of course, "rock" has a very, *very* loose definition.
21:08:51 <ehird> in our ivory tower, classical is the only untouched beautyf
21:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes? I do agree that I'm not a noob on what in Swedish would be called "konstmusik", (english translation: "art music")
21:08:58 <oklokok> pikhq: yes, but all of it sucks :P
21:09:17 <ehird> AnMaster: anyone who has ever listened to either rock or metal can easily tell them apart.
21:09:19 <pikhq> oklokok: ... Lies.
21:10:18 * pikhq shall listen to the overture from Tommy.
21:10:26 <GregorR> You see, rocks are solid structures formed from minerals, whereas metals are elements are alloys which are electrically conductive.
21:10:34 <oklokok> what i conveice as "rock" is the stuff where the only actual melody is in the guitar solo, and the rest is trivial chord progressions, emphasis being on singing
21:10:34 <GregorR> Some rocks contain metals, however!
21:10:38 <pikhq> Actually, let's go for the whole thing. Whoo.
21:10:57 <GregorR> oklokok: You've just defined most popular music throughout time :P
21:11:07 <pikhq> oklokok: Well, if that's the definition you're going with, yes, it almost *entirely* sucks.
21:11:09 <GregorR> Only s/guitar/lute/ if you go back far enough, and s/lute/fife/ eventually.
21:11:11 <oklokok> GregorR: i see no crucial difference between most pop and most rock
21:11:19 <ehird> from topic "Why call it K", by arthur whitney
21:11:20 <ehird> 2. if he didn't like it he could go to L]]
21:11:26 <ehird> oerjan should sue him.
21:11:34 <GregorR> By "popular music" I don't mean "pop" specifically, I mean "popular music"
21:11:52 <oklokok> well right, metal isn't like that
21:12:00 <oklokok> those are the ones i listen to
21:12:07 <oklokok> and some jazz, which isn't in that category either
21:12:07 <ehird> oklokok: by your definition i don't listen to any rock
21:12:28 <oklokok> my definition might be wider, that's the definition of the kind of rock i dislike
21:12:58 <ehird> maybe i should stop liking all music in 4/4
21:13:12 <GregorR> I listen EXCLUSIVELY to music with prime denominators.
21:13:40 <ehird> i only like music in (1/3i)/4*sqrt(2)^(log_pi(e))
21:13:44 <oklokok> took me ages to get a firm grip over 5/2^n and 7/2^n
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21:14:00 <GregorR> oklokok: I said prime DENOMINATORS :P
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21:14:18 <oklokok> i also like 11, after that it's just "random amount of beats"
21:14:38 <ehird> i wonder what the sig i mentioned would be like :D
21:14:48 <GregorR> oklokok: Even with 5, it's usually better characterized as "three and two" or "four and one"
21:15:04 <ehird> so i guess nothing
21:15:09 <oklokok> GregorR: well right, i wasn't directly responding to you, but that does sound interesting... wait, actually it means nothing really
21:15:44 <GregorR> 4/3 would just mean that for some idiot reason you have to write what you ought to write as quarter notes as quarter-note triplets :P
21:16:05 <oklokok> "3 3 2 2" is how that one famous song does it
21:16:51 <oklokok> mission impossible? well dunno
21:18:12 <GregorR> http://www.kellamknives.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_9_16&products_id=597 WAAAAAAAAAAAANT
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21:19:20 <ehird> oklokok: isn't mission impossible 3 4 3 3
21:19:36 <ehird> duh duh duhh, duh duh dah duh, duh duh duhh, dah duh duh
21:19:37 <pikhq> I'll just note that some of my favorite "rock" music is instrumental.
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21:20:21 <pikhq> Melody? Who needs it.
21:20:44 <ehird> wait, i misremembered it.
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21:25:41 <pikhq> oklokok: Okay, 9 minute in and there's been about 30 seconds of lyrics. Is that rock? :P
21:28:26 <oklokok> over 9 minutes is already way beyond my conception of basic rock
21:28:56 <pikhq> Then Pink Floyd is not rock.
21:29:28 <oklokok> well i associate the name with rock
21:29:37 <pikhq> And "Dark Side of the Moon", often called the greatest rock album, is not rock.
21:29:40 <oklokok> and i recall i didn't especially care of it
21:29:55 <oklokok> but really, i'm just saying my definition sucks.
21:31:28 <olsner> bah, who cares what genre it is? either you like it or you don't (well, or anything inbetween, really)
21:32:22 <oklokok> i suck at genres, and i agree. i just happen to know i dislike most rock and pop
21:32:50 <oklokok> but, i do even like some pop
21:33:17 <oklokok> for instance britney spears has many interesting melodies, about which people often disagree with me, for some reason
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21:42:53 * GregorR plays Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
21:43:34 * pikhq is still playing "Dark Side of the Moon"
21:43:37 <oklokok> then i guess we'll get a recording of that one song of yours as well
21:43:50 * GregorR plays AN MP3 OF Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
21:46:51 <fizzie> Egh, this 4544x1280 desktop is taking some getting used to.
21:48:33 <fizzie> I used to have a perfectly reasonable 1024x1280 (pivot) + 1920x1200 pair, but then we had this 1600x1200 monitor and my wife wants it off the table it used to be on, and I don't want to just throw it away, and ...
21:49:21 <fizzie> Yes. And 1280 high, though the 80 lowest pixels are only visible on that pivoted monitor.
21:50:12 <olsner> I could actually fit in another 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 on this desk, I have a 1600x1200 and a 1920x1200 now
21:50:16 <olsner> not sure I want to though
21:50:40 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying that the 1600x1200 and the 1920x1200 screens (20" and 24" nominally) have different pixel pitch; .255mm for the 20" one (100dpi) and .283mm or so (90dpi?) on the 24".
21:51:11 <olsner> if you have overlapping windows, that is... I usually don't notice
21:51:41 <fizzie> Well, everything looks smaller on this screen; I'm not sure this setup is doing per-screen DPI correctly, since it's that nvidia's "merged as a single framebuffer" thing.
21:51:55 <olsner> I like to keep "visible on all workspaces" windows, like browser+irc on the 1600x1200, and N*work on the 1920x1200
21:52:30 <olsner> I think I have an overridden dpi value anyway, the defaults keep getting me insanely huge fonts
21:53:23 <fizzie> My standard 8pt DejaVu Sans Mono is a bit on the small side on the 20" screen, especially since it's further away.
21:54:23 <fizzie> xdpyinfo reports "screen #0: 3520x1200 pixels (961x321 millimeters), 93x95 dots per inch".
21:55:17 <fizzie> I guess it's just a sum of the widths, which is making the DPI value non-rectangular, since it's max(height1, height2) for the physical height.
21:55:33 <olsner> that's ... *exactly* the pixel size, millimeter size and dpi as my setup
21:56:23 <fizzie> Right. Non-rectangular would be more interesting, though.
21:56:38 <fizzie> Non-euclidean DPI, for the Lovecraft fans.
21:57:14 <olsner> hexagonal actually makes some kind of sense
21:57:53 <olsner> in any case, it would be very cool to have hexagonal windows on a hexagonal screen
21:58:26 <oklokok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:58:27 <GregorR> Sounds like one of those stupid sci-fi movies.
21:58:28 <oklokok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:58:57 <olsner> GregorR: *cool sci-fi movies
21:59:14 <oklokok> hey seriously, where can i get one of those
22:07:43 <ehird> [21:46] fizzie: Egh, this 4544x1280 desktop is taking some getting used to.
22:08:04 <oklokok> i wanted too, until i heard about hexagons
22:08:28 <ehird> oklokok: how about polygon displays
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22:10:44 <ehird> oklokok: instead of hexagon pixels, arbitrary polygon pixels
22:13:34 <oklokok> well i'm not that interested in hexagon pixels, actually
22:14:50 <fizzie> It's a bit tricky in that the 1600x1200+1920x1200 screens are on the PCI-E card, while the pivoted screen is on the on-motherboard Radeon; if I select "init PCI-E first" in bios, the on-chip graphics aren't visible at all, so I have to use the on-board graphics as the "primary" device, and therefore the linux text console ends up on the 90 degrees rotated monitor.
22:15:08 <fizzie> A framebuffer console could be rotated, but the text one doesn't know about things like that.
22:15:34 <fizzie> Fiddling in a working xorg.conf made my neck hurt already.
22:16:11 <ehird> fizzie, can I just come over to wherever those screens are and like, use them?
22:16:17 <ehird> i'll stay out of the way, i promise
22:16:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that would work. I could take you a photo, though compared to some of the billion-monitor setups seen in the interwebs this really isn't all that fancy.
22:17:15 <ehird> basically, instead of you being there using the screens
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22:19:08 <fizzie> I think I would, you know, notice.
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22:20:37 <fizzie> Eh, enabling the onboard display added an audio device to the system.
22:20:49 <fizzie> "Radeon X1200 Series Audio Controller", it's used for the HDMI audio whatever.
22:22:03 <ehird> fizzie: you could use another computer?
22:22:32 <fizzie> Will be interesting to see if this thing even supports twinview-for-two-monitors + xinerama-for-a-third, since twinview does some sort of fake-xinerama-info thing.
22:23:09 <oklokok> ehird: why were you reading about goodstein's theorem
22:23:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:23:54 <ehird> oklokok: john tromp's website linked to it
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22:31:47 <fizzie> "(EE) RADEONHD(1): RHDMCSetupFBLocation: Cannot setup MC: not idle!!!" Well, that's not good, whatever it means.
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22:41:39 <fizzie> And with the three-xinerama-screens variant it just goes "Screen 2 deleted because of no matching config section" and only uses two of the monitors.
23:00:01 <ehird> http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_images/0507/29/912sh07.jpg / this isn't a phone, it's a tv
23:00:59 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/624/
23:01:02 <ehird> Github for lesbians!
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23:55:24 <GregorR> I think I'm going to make xkcdsuckssucks.blogspot.com :P
23:55:44 <GregorR> Oh wait it already exists X-D
23:57:05 <GregorR> Oh, it's owned by the same guy as xkcdsucks.blogspot.com P
00:05:26 <evenant> i wonder if that exists/still exists
00:08:40 <oklokok> i like many of the comics he lists as examples of crappy humor
00:09:09 <oklokok> weird, since there's tons of crappy stuff
00:10:48 <ehird> GregorR: xkcdsucks looks awesome
00:11:21 <oklokok> actually some of them are among the really crappy ones
00:11:25 <GregorR> There are a few good points but it's mostly just whiny and neurotic.
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00:15:41 <oklokok> I like licking the hooker's ass.
00:15:41 <oklokok> Woah, wait a second, I didn't mean to type that here...ha ha, IGNORE ME PEOPLE.
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00:15:53 <oklokok> xkcdsucks has kinda bad humor as well.
00:15:54 -!- ehird has joined.
00:24:33 <oklokok> also why refer to the alt text if you're going to replace it with your own, and not supply the original
00:24:51 <oklokok> especially as the picture doesn't link to xkcd
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00:30:17 <oklokok> well i need to leave something for xkcdsuckssucks sucks
00:30:52 <oklokok> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7sRArBiqnC4/ScMxbkOV7JI/AAAAAAAAASE/ildqFvzywaI/s1600-h/558+reworded.jpg <<< actually it links to this completely different thing
00:31:05 <oklokok> but i'm just reading a random post on the site
00:43:02 <oklokok> okay this is a horrible site
00:49:08 <oklokok> okay reading the comments of 519 did make me kinda furious, bunch of whining kids
00:49:32 <oklokok> hmm, i see i didn't paste the xkcdsucks about 519
00:49:39 <oklokok> well. this was about that.
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01:50:02 <ehird> oklokok: also you suck, it's totally awesome
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02:08:29 <oklokok> the one about 519 was stupid, the one about 558 was mostly justified, that's all i know, and that's enough, and you suck and all that god i'm tired.
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02:42:19 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Almost_impossible_to_learn_and_apply_esoteric_programming_language&curid=2932&diff=15213&oldid=15203
02:44:23 <pikhq> That sounds like an exceptionally complex board/card/gambling game.
02:46:33 <pikhq> And I think the main problem with that is the completely incomplete description. Unlike Minimal, which was bullshit.
02:47:14 <GregorR> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+box+cheerios <-- look at the input interpretation
02:52:45 <GregorR> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=i+pounds+of+beef <-- ha
02:58:02 <pikhq> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=i+grams+of+cake THE CAKE IS A LIE
02:58:39 <Slereah> I wonder if it would work with octonions and shi
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03:00:12 <ehird> Cheerios amount 1 box of herring WJW
03:00:57 <pikhq> What Jesus would do that shit? :P
03:03:36 <HackEgo> 1 box of babies \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ 1 box child \ Result: \ \ 1 box children \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 17, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
03:08:51 <ehird> `wolfram 1 laptop per child
03:09:20 <HackEgo> eieio \ \ Input: \ \ o \ Exact result: 2 \ \ o \ \ Plot: 0.15 0.10 0.05 0.02 0.01 0.05 0.10 0.15 0.01 0.02 o from 0.02 to 0.02 \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 17, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
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03:39:09 <oerjan> who the heck is sinnax cossack
03:41:05 <oerjan> <ehird> oerjan should sue him. <-- :D
03:41:24 <HackEgo> satan \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Satan animals \ Scientific name: \ \ Satan genus \ Taxonomy: \ \ kingdom phylum class order family genus \ \ Animalia animals Chordata chordates Actinopterygii ray finned fishes Siluriformes catfishes Ictaluridae north american freshwater catfishes Satan \ \ Other members of family
03:41:26 <ehird> oerjan: Sinnax Cossack's, say it ten times fast <GregorR> WITH THE WRONG PRONUNCIATION
03:41:42 <GregorR> Thank you for adding that.
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03:42:35 -!- GregorR has set topic: Sinnex Cohsek's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:43:02 <oerjan> actually i thought the cossack was a nice touch
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03:43:19 -!- ehird has set topic: Sinnax Cossack's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:43:29 -!- GregorR has set topic: Sinnex Cossack's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:43:35 <ehird> as opposed to like Cossax
03:43:37 -!- ehird has set topic: Sinnax Cossack's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:43:46 <GregorR> Because it's an actual name? My problem with "Cossack" is the "Coss", not the "ack"
03:44:04 <ehird> Look, it's a lame pun. Replace it entirely or leave it :P
03:45:06 <oerjan> you just imagine him riding in, savagely mathematicizing...
03:46:05 <ehird> I was imagining it as an old lady, actually. Lipstick. Looking into a crystal ball.
03:46:11 -!- GregorR has set topic: The Magnificent Mormo's House of Undies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:46:22 <ehird> Hand-written letters outside, with drapes: "SINNAX COSSACK'S MATHEMATICAL EMPORIUM & COMPANY"
03:46:40 -!- ehird has set topic: The Magnificent Mormon's House of Undies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:47:18 <GregorR> The Magnificent Mormo is the leader of the Mormon religion.
03:47:34 -!- GregorR has set topic: The Magnificent Mormo's House of Undies | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:47:42 <oerjan> Momo, from the Michael Ende book...
03:48:28 <oerjan> Mormor, which means maternal grandmother in norwegian (and probably swedish)
03:48:53 <GregorR> `translatefromto sv en mormor
03:49:48 <oerjan> the swedish are even bigger than us on composing names of relatives from parts, using it for uncles and aunts as well
03:50:11 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en farbror
03:50:38 <GregorR> Hah, that even sounds like "father brother" :P
03:51:28 <GregorR> `translatefromto sv en morbror
03:51:45 <oerjan> `translatefromto sv en brorson
03:51:58 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en brorbror
03:52:02 <GregorR> `translatefromto sv en farfarbrorsonson
03:52:04 <HackEgo> grandfather's brother's grandson
03:52:04 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en Oh, bror!
03:52:22 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en brorsonfarsonbrorfarbrorson
03:52:24 <HackEgo> brorsonfarsonbrorfarbrorson
03:52:39 <ehird> Arson is for lameos.
03:53:10 <oerjan> `translatefromto en sv aunt
03:53:11 <GregorR> `translatefromto sv en morson
03:53:27 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en mosterbrorsonfarson
03:53:33 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en mosterbror
03:53:37 <oerjan> that's mother's sister btw
03:53:38 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en mosterbrorfarson
03:54:04 <ehird> `translatefromto sv en mormormormormormorbrorson
03:54:05 <HackEgo> grandmother grandmother grandmother nephew
03:54:10 <oerjan> it doesn't make sense to have two siblings in a row, silly
03:54:26 <GregorR> `translatefromto sv en mormo
03:54:35 <oerjan> well didn't in the old days, anyway
03:54:47 <ehird> oerjan: sure it does!
03:55:10 <oerjan> well it's half sibling, naturally
03:55:52 <oerjan> `translatefromto en sv cousin
03:56:22 <oerjan> that may only apply to females, it does in norwegian at least
03:57:19 <ehird> THE NEW MOVIE ABOUT A THING THAT NEEDS RESOLVING
03:57:37 <oerjan> SITUATION: MAJOR ISSUE
03:57:46 <GregorR> Your parents get divorced, you go with your mother, who remarries. They have one child, your half-sister. Your mother dies and you stay with your step-father, who later remarries, and they have one child, your half-sister's half-sister. The question:
03:57:49 <oerjan> about a major with trouble
03:57:49 <GregorR> Hitting that? OK or not OK?
03:58:04 <ehird> Incest is ALWAYS okay!
03:58:07 <ehird> ...or, you know, not.
03:58:21 <GregorR> It's not incest, you have no blood relation :P
03:58:25 <ehird> oerjan: the third movie is SITUATION: COLONEL ISSUE
03:58:34 <ehird> GregorR: It's stepcest.
03:58:54 <ehird> GregorR: Also, dude, this isn't the channel for personal advice.
03:59:21 <ehird> Personal advice is SEXY
03:59:22 <oerjan> so, GregorR, you are from west virginia?
03:59:37 <oerjan> or wait, then you wouldn't be asking.
03:59:40 <GregorR> oerjan: There are so many better states to make that joke about :P
04:00:00 <oerjan> well but i haven't heard about those
04:00:58 <oerjan> i don't think that first g seemed comfortable
04:01:50 <oerjan> GregorR: i understand the natural incest taboo is against people you grew up with, or something like that, so probably _not_ ok
04:04:36 <ehird> taboos are so boring.
04:04:51 <oerjan> at least the recent (german?) case about brother and sister who refused not to get children were about two people separated at birth, then rejoined
04:05:03 <oerjan> s/taboo/instinct/, i think
04:05:16 <oerjan> taboo's are cultural, this was not so much
04:05:18 <ehird> if that was true nobody would like anyone they knew in school.
04:05:42 <ehird> like 90% of all taboos are ingrained socially, i'd say.
04:06:33 <oerjan> this is, as always, a vague recall.
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04:12:02 <ehird> Incest is awesome[1].
04:12:11 <ehird> OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH CONTRAVARSY
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04:43:08 <pikhq> TEACH THE CONTROVERSY
04:45:22 <ehird> Josef Fritzl is an evolutionist!
04:51:19 <GregorR> http://dupsies.com/Dstore/african-asooke-capkufi-p-1983.html
04:51:43 <ehird> GregorR: if I buy you some hats will you stop talking about them
04:52:13 <pikhq> I don't think he lacks for hats.
04:52:15 <pikhq> For he is Gregor, the Hatticent.
04:52:25 <GregorR> ehird: I'll stop talking about the hats you bought :P
04:52:41 <oerjan> ehird: THERE IS NO ESCAPE
04:52:42 <ehird> Can I just shoot you?
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05:01:58 <immibis> anyone interested in discussing an esoteric-language os kernel join #osdev
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05:20:36 <immibis> never mind, turned out they weren't serious
05:20:57 <oerjan> who would have guessed
05:26:34 <ehird> i want to kill brainfuck
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05:38:43 <pikhq> I tried KDE 4 out again.
05:38:50 <pikhq> Why do I torture myself so?
05:39:05 <ehird> It's 5:38; someone tell me to bed myself.
05:40:25 <oerjan> BECAUSE OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE MUCH GNASHING OF TEETH
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05:41:23 <ehird> oerjan: see, you're being interesting and fun, i like being awake and listening to silly people
05:41:31 <lament> gnash gnash gnash gnash
05:42:05 <ehird> now you're both being interesting!
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05:45:01 <ehird> lament: why do you hate this kid.
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06:36:14 <ehird> AnMaster: quite so.
06:36:36 <ehird> regrettably, my internal clock striked day before my cognition striked bed
06:36:41 <AnMaster> ehird, okay, *makes mental note to avoid ehird until he sleept a full night*
06:38:45 <ehird> AnMaster: mac attack the strakatak struck strucken
06:39:24 <ehird> but always be him and always be you.
06:40:11 * AnMaster backs away slowly, smiling in a disarming way.
06:40:13 <ehird> "I have been in contact with aliens for over 30 years. They communicate with me telepathically. No, I am not crazy. Yes, I am 100% truthful. AMA"
06:40:13 <ehird> gotta dispute that third sentence
06:40:36 * ehird slashes AnMaster to pieces unexpectedly in a second
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06:41:11 <AnMaster> like, you know, the yetis in the Discworld
06:41:37 <ehird> i destroyed your data center too. beforehand
06:42:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not an issue. Since it happened in an alternative universe from what I restored. By reversing polarity I could phase shift the data into this universe.
06:50:10 * pikhq looked at Etoile again...
06:50:35 <pikhq> I'm pleasantly surprised that they're trying to use Smalltalk as the primary language for it.
06:51:13 <pikhq> (and making their Smalltalk implementation have a common object system with Objective C)
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07:04:28 <Sgeo> Couldn't I just say "I am the ruler of a universe. I am 100% truthful. AMA.", but I'm referring to a universe in my imagination?
07:12:55 <Sgeo> Ask Me Anything
07:20:57 <ehird> e the dependently typed lambda calculus <3
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07:39:43 <ehird> http://twitter.com/helen_keller
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08:09:49 <ehird> i replied to your reddit post.
08:15:28 <ehird> impomatic: if it wasn't helpful, sorry
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08:17:52 <impomatic> Thanks. It's always easier to ask on reddit than read something ;-)
08:18:51 <ehird> try sleep deprv, you CAN't read!
08:19:46 <impomatic> I've got a copy of three OS books, but they don't really help
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08:29:46 <ehird> impomatic: don't have two processes fumble for communication
08:30:01 <ehird> have them both sa yto the kernel "i want ot talk with <process #>"
08:30:08 <ehird> and make the kernel synchronise these
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08:50:29 <impomatic> ehird: that sounds fine, but how does each process know the number of the process it want to talk to.
08:51:10 <impomatic> If they're named instead of numbered, that's slightly easier. Until there's a name collision
08:52:26 <ehird> erm, presumably two processes have a reason to talk
08:52:36 <ehird> or are you writing "blind date OS"
08:53:24 <impomatic> They'd have a reason, although a blind date OS sounds cool
08:54:08 <ehird> then when finding their reason, let them find an OS-created identifier.
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09:13:48 <OoS> Are the BBC running out of news? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8206280.stm
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10:19:58 <nooga> plan9 is such a good design
10:27:58 <nooga> btw anyone used PVM?
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10:41:49 <ehird> there are better designs than plan 9
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11:41:47 <ehird> mostly unrealised. but plan 9 separates the notion of an in-memory value/object and its persisted on-disk form, and adds separate persist/unpersist operations; this is a flaw.
11:42:12 <ehird> (this doesn't mean you have to drop the hierarchy of names; see eg K directories)
11:42:30 <ehird> (although I don't believe a hierarchy of string names is the best way to represent user documents)
11:53:48 <ehird> yeah, nor is unix.
11:56:17 <nooga> now i'm trying to employ PVM for doing distributed raytracing :F
12:29:23 <nooga> ehird: god i hate people << who, why?
12:29:35 <ehird> people; because they're idiots
12:30:39 <nooga> sometimes i feel that way too
12:30:53 <nooga> are you not human?
12:31:41 <ehird> sign me up to be a nonhuman.
12:32:58 <ehird> preferably the other way around, although as a subhuman i probably wouldn't comprehend people's idiocy
12:33:13 <ehird> then again the same applies to non-existence, which isn't on my plans
12:34:25 <nooga> i'd be hard, idiocy is probably the most developed feature of human kind
12:40:15 <fizzie> Oh, and helloes from a six-hour seminar given by all our summer students of this year; I have no idea why I'm here, since technically I'm on vacation.
12:40:32 <fizzie> Possibly for the free food and drinks.
12:42:42 <ehird> just exceedingly fiz
12:42:49 <ehird> well also fizzly, but that's a separate issue
12:43:55 <fizzie> I used to be known as "fizzle", as I may have mentioned.
12:44:47 <ehird> fizzie is like the counternym of fuzzie
13:00:44 <nooga> my boss wants me to port winapi parts to iphone
13:07:13 <nooga> that's too fucking stupid
13:34:58 <fizzie> Ooh, there's also a speech recognition talk here. I hadn't noticed.
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13:46:40 * AnMaster watches fsck. 1% ... 2% ..... 3% . 77% ... 78% ... 79% ...... 80% .. 99% ............. 100%
13:47:24 <fizzie> Percent of donetskity.
13:48:41 <fizzie> Recently in Ubuntu I saw a progress bar that moved with pretty much constant speed, then when it hit something like 98% and wasn't quite done, it jumped back to 60% or so, and repeated this a couple of times.
13:48:51 <fizzie> There's certainly the feeling of progress there.
13:49:05 <ehird> it's OBAMA PROGRESS</contravarsy>
13:50:42 <nooga> i'd make progressbar that pulses
13:51:58 <nooga> btw. anyone used PVM ?
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14:27:44 <oerjan> <nooga> i'd make progressbar that pulses <-- it could make a little dance
14:31:19 <impomatic> Can you think of a real world use for counting the bits in a word?
14:40:37 <impomatic> Are parity checks any use? There's better error detection schemes.
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14:42:07 <oerjan> it is the minimal scheme possible, sort of
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14:42:39 <oklofok> it's the manhattan length of a binary vector, that isn't a very universal operation.
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14:43:03 <oklofok> so intuition says it'd be mostly useless
14:43:28 <fizzie> If you have some sort of bitmap (block occupancy or something) and need the count (amount of allocated blocks in that case); though I guess often it would just make sense to keep track of it separately.
14:44:08 <oerjan> ah yes if it represents a set then it's useful
14:44:39 <ehird> impomatic: counting bits in word?
14:44:43 <ehird> like number of 1 bits?
14:44:52 <ehird> doesn't ecc ram use that?
14:44:54 <oklofok> oerjan: you weren't responding to fizzie, right?
14:45:00 <ehird> ecc ram does bit^bit^bit
14:45:11 <ehird> it can corerct 1-bit errors
14:45:13 <ehird> so it can find position
14:45:21 <oklofok> then yes, i agree with both of you
14:45:35 <oklofok> ehird: parity was mentioned
14:46:11 <oklofok> but the manhattan distance (mod 2) of a binary vector is an even more useless operation
14:46:24 <oklofok> and isn't useful for sets either
14:46:33 <oklofok> well. need to do this thing now
14:48:50 <oklofok> i mean i thought fizzie meant "allocated blocks" abstractly, as in "allocated pixels" :P i tend to interpret him rather loosely
14:50:56 <nooga> who'd like to install PVM ?
14:51:51 <fizzie> oklofok: I'm no loose person!
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14:53:54 <nooga> ehird: have you started your own os development?
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14:54:13 <oerjan> fizzie, secretly a cannon
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14:55:21 <whtspc> I'm wondering why when you're reading something about esolangs
14:55:41 <whtspc> it always says that it has no use
14:56:05 <whtspc> it doesn't have to be taken serious
14:56:43 <whtspc> while on the other hand mr Wolfram almost makes a religion out of minimal automata and machines
14:57:01 <ehird> because wolfram is fucking insane and we, despite appearances, are just eccentric.
14:57:30 <oerjan> WHO ARE YOU CALLING SANE?
14:58:09 <whtspc> I'm not saying Wolfra m is right in his philosophy, but I do think it's worthed to explore the possibilities of minimal systems
14:58:38 <ehird> you're just looking at crappy esolangs
14:58:46 <ehird> our wiki is not of terribly high average quality
15:00:11 <whtspc> who writes the lines with the context, that 'those languages are created only for fun purposes and have no use at all' all over the internet
15:00:23 <whtspc> are those people not informed?
15:00:39 <ehird> i think you're reading in to this way too much.
15:00:45 <ehird> we are not some centralised community.
15:01:08 <oerjan> fizzie: have we not have ehird accredited properly, hmmmm?
15:01:15 <ehird> oerjan: sorry, I forgot we own the rights to the word Esoteric :-P
15:01:15 <impomatic> There's an easier way to calculate parity than counting bits.
15:02:57 <oklofok> depends on the instruction set
15:03:31 <oklofok> but yes, adding shit up mod base_being_used is pretty simple, since you just need to remember the last digit
15:05:16 <oklofok> in base 2, yes, i don't think xor is generally used in other bases
15:05:47 <GregorR> Just what is 012t xor 022t
15:06:08 <ehird> xor is add mod base.
15:06:12 <oklofok> by ehird's definition, 001
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15:07:21 <impomatic> a := a xor (x >>16) ; a := a xor (xa>>8) ; a := a xor (a >>4) ; a := a xor (a >>2) ; a := a xor (a >>1) ;
15:07:37 <impomatic> a := a xor (a >>16) ; a := a xor (a>>8) ; a := a xor (a >>4) ; a := a xor (a >>2) ; a := a xor (a >>1) ;
15:08:14 <oerjan> i am not sure how that's supposed to be easier than a xor'ing loop
15:09:55 <oklofok> you can do that for summing as well, of course not with bit vectors
15:10:48 <oklofok> point is that's a valid fold for any commutative and associative operator isn't it
15:12:34 <fizzie> graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html has a collection of tricksies, including the sum-of-bits thing. There are those funky "if you have fast multiplication" variants.
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15:41:41 <nooga> damn limechat crashes all the time
15:43:25 <impomatic> Fizzie: have been reading that one recently
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15:57:20 <nooga> ehird: is minix 3 cool or uncool?
15:57:44 <ehird> microkernel - uncool.
15:59:05 <nooga> http://www.minix3.org/ second paragraph sounds really nice
15:59:05 <ehird> first, see torvalds/tenenbaum debate
15:59:07 <ehird> second, http://tunes.org/wiki/microkernel.html
16:01:09 <ais523> hmm... the author of Ihybrid replies, apparently Ihybrid was a joke/troll and the other lang was meant to be serious
16:01:19 <ais523> well, it was meant to be stupid, but still usable
16:01:43 <ehird> ais523: the cognitive dissonance adds a new layer of stupid...
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16:08:43 <ais523> we need more langs in the spirit of TURKEY BOMB anyway
16:09:09 <ehird> turkey bomb, soviet ripoff edition
16:09:38 <pikhq> Well, today at work I have been told "Do something interesting. Tell me about it."
16:09:47 <pikhq> I figure that's as good an excuse as any to learn Erlang.
16:09:54 <ehird> Erlang suxx, learn K.
16:10:09 <pikhq> I have a queue of languages to learn, okay?
16:10:28 <ehird> ...also, that sounds like one mighty fine job.
16:13:38 <ehird> uncool from what i know of it. seL4 has been proved correct though, which is an fpnerdgasm.
16:15:05 <impomatic> Hmmm... how about VSTa. Or FreeRTOS?
16:15:07 <pikhq> Via Haskell, no less.
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16:16:08 <ehird> FreeRTOS, i'm sure it's wonderful, but it's hard to get excited about
16:16:17 <ehird> pc is where it's at
16:17:30 <pikhq> ehird: L4 is designed so that the microkernel does nearly nothing. It is, at least, a darn good microkernel. (it does this: address space seperation, threads, scheduling, and synchronous IPC.)
16:17:42 <ehird> Ahem. Read http://tunes.org/wiki/microkernel.html
16:17:48 <ehird> It's not a good thing.
16:18:36 <pikhq> Ahem. Chop off your RMS crazy-beard for a minute.
16:19:04 <ehird> Was that supposed to mean "That's way too different from things that already exist, so stop being so unrealistic"?
16:19:37 <ehird> Because, funny; stepping outside of the suckage that exists is known as "innovation".
16:19:39 <pikhq> No, it was supposed to mean "Stop caring about everything but what doesn't exist for a moment."
16:19:42 <AnMaster> ehird, so you argue that QNX sucks for example?
16:19:52 <ais523> L4, to me, I don't think is meant to be a kernel per se, but rather an API for implementing kernels with
16:20:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Unlike you, I am not some sort of deranged uber-QNX fetishist (what IS your thing about QNX?)
16:20:06 <ais523> as in, it's just doing the syscalls etc, and they've implemented linux on top of it
16:20:08 <pikhq> More specifically, stop the "ZOMG THE CAR IS WORSE THAN MY PERSONAL JETPACK WHICH DOESNT EXIST"
16:20:26 <pikhq> ais523: It also functions as a nice hypervisor.
16:20:40 <AnMaster> ehird, see logs from 2008 for more info why I like QNX.
16:20:47 <ehird> AnMaster: "Logs from 2008"
16:20:52 <nooga> ais523: where can i get that L4 ?
16:20:52 <ais523> AnMaster: 2008 is rather nonspecific...
16:20:53 <ehird> "Please see SOME ATOMS, IN THE UNIVERSE"
16:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I think during the spring
16:20:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: We talk a lot.
16:21:12 <ais523> nooga: I don't know off by heart, but it was all over the tech news last week
16:21:27 <ehird> pikhq: "Hey, we have this really great, sturdy rickshaw here. What's that? You have design documents and know where to get the components to build a ... horseless carriage? Shut up with that crap, let's go polish the lovely rickshaw."
16:21:38 <ais523> AnMaster: yes; but, I don't have all the logs from 2008 saved on my computer
16:21:47 <ehird> "Sheesh! Idealists."
16:21:56 <AnMaster> ais523, true, I have some compressed on CD :P
16:22:01 <ais523> and http://tunes.org/robots.txt gives "Crawl-delay: 15"
16:22:16 <pikhq> ehird: ... Thou art an idiot.
16:22:18 <ais523> so it would take over an hour to download them all
16:22:27 <pikhq> However, you are simultaneously idiot and genius, so.
16:22:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you have them compressed on cd or similar?
16:22:33 <ehird> pikhq: that's your new favourite method of argumentation, isn't it
16:22:46 <ehird> if you can't think of a response, drop an ellipsis, go into faux olde english mode and insult me
16:22:53 <ais523> why would you expect me to?
16:22:55 <impomatic> nooga: there are multiple versions of L4. The Wikipedia page has links to many of them.
16:22:55 <pikhq> I guess at this point all I can say is "Shut up and write your damned kernel-less OS and *demonstrate* how awesome it would be."
16:23:00 <AnMaster> ais523, heh, what if tunes vanishes?
16:23:03 <ais523> it's not as if I use #esoteric logs for bedtime reading
16:23:15 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, uh, I'm working on it. Should I become a hermit and stop talking until it's done?
16:23:19 <ais523> and, it's quite possible someone has them backed up; apparently you do
16:23:23 <ais523> so why would I need backups too?
16:23:40 <pikhq> ehird: You're on IRC. Aren't you already a hermit? :P
16:24:02 <ehird> pikhq: Soo, any response that is actually a response..?
16:25:17 <ehird> ...and i'm going to assume you don't concede, as most people still don't when they can't rebut an argument I pose
16:25:24 <ehird> (I should really learn not to argue on IRC)
16:26:25 <pikhq> ... What argument? You just said "No microkernel. Also fairies."
16:26:43 <ehird> [16:22] pikhq: I guess at this point all I can say is "Shut up and write your damned kernel-less OS and *demonstrate* how awesome it would be."
16:26:43 <ehird> [16:23] ehird: pikhq: Yeah, uh, I'm working on it. Should I become a hermit and stop talking until it's done?
16:26:49 <pikhq> I can see where you would get an argument from that, but you really... Didn't argue the point so much as said "That sucks".
16:26:56 <ehird> You haven't responded to that in any way apart from "hurr hurr irc is unsocial".
16:27:23 <pikhq> ... The... I... And...
16:28:16 <pikhq> You make about as much sense as Chewbacca on Kashyyyk.
16:28:46 <ehird> So, that's two non-rebuttal responses to one line so far.
16:29:13 <pikhq> What the crap is there to rebut? It's a freaking rhetorical question!
16:29:56 <ehird> The whole issue is you saying, effectively, "stop dissing microkernels until you've made your wonderful no-kernel OS."
16:30:07 <ehird> i.e., "stop talking about OS design until you've completed a fully working OS."
16:30:28 <ehird> I am asking if you seriously think I should do that, because otherwise my criticism of L4 was completely founded.
16:30:51 <pikhq> Sorry, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And you're claiming that CS has been doing it wrong for 50 years.
16:31:08 <ehird> pikhq: are you using linux at the moment?
16:31:25 <ehird> CS' opinion has been "microkernels are the only acceptable option" since forever.
16:31:33 <ehird> Maybe your CPU is executing extraordinary proof right now.
16:32:07 <pikhq> Nope. People've just not bothered to make a decent general-purpose microkernel OS is all.
16:32:26 <pikhq> "Not bothered" is quite different from "I can't even see how you would *write* that".
16:33:06 <ehird> How would you write any software without a kernel?
16:33:12 <ehird> Oh, right, no other piece of software HAS a kernel.
16:33:37 <ehird> We don't route all our information access and, well, EVERYTHING through one god procedure/object/....
16:33:42 <ehird> Because that's just fucking STUPID.
16:33:52 <ehird> We simply use other procedures/objects inside others.
16:34:17 <pikhq> I will be quite intrigued to see your scheduler.
16:34:43 <ehird> "I will be quite intrigued to see how you do a KERNEL without a kernel, ho ho!"
16:34:47 <ehird> Convincing that's not.
16:35:14 <pikhq> And if you get multiple schedulers working, then I will suspect you're running on a different architecture than anyone else.
16:35:46 <pikhq> Because I don't see any way for that to work aside from fairy dust.
16:35:49 <impomatic> Isn't there a linux which runs on top of L4? That would count as a decent general-purpose microkernel OS
16:36:15 <pikhq> impomatic: I'd hesitate to call that a microkernel OS. More "Linux using L4 as a hypervisor".
16:36:15 <ehird> Amusing how every pro-kernelers attempt to rebut no-kernel systems use skewed questions that use singular kernel terminology.
16:36:27 <ehird> When did you stop beating your $person_of_note, pikhq?
16:36:45 <pikhq> ehird: How the fuck do you propose for *any* of it to work?
16:36:51 <impomatic> ehird: what's your opinion on exokernels?
16:37:27 <ehird> pikhq: IT'S SIMPLE! Just don't have one centralised router that all code goes through! WRITE IT LIKE ANY OTHER PIECE OF SOFTWARE!
16:37:48 <ehird> impomatic: microkernels taken to the extreme. as pointless, and slower
16:38:14 <pikhq> ehird: ... So, magic.
16:38:21 <impomatic> So you advocate monolithic kernels?
16:38:37 <ehird> So, brothers. pikhq thinks that writing software without a god object at the center having everything passed through it is "magic".
16:38:40 <nooga> ehird: start implementing, i'm dead curious how it will function
16:38:48 <ehird> Do remind me in future to never work on any code pikhq's designed.
16:38:54 <ehird> impomatic: i advocate modular no-kernel systems.
16:39:10 <pikhq> ehird: The hardware assumes a god object.
16:39:24 <ehird> pikhq: the hardware basically assumes C.
16:39:26 <nooga> but mikrokernel arch is just modular system with minimal kernel
16:40:04 <nooga> how can that be so bad compared to a modular system without kernel
16:40:21 <lament> ehird: as long as you have a central CPU, you will either have a kernel or a lot of code duplication best replaced by a kernel
16:40:33 <ehird> nooga: new argument policy instated: I won't reply to people who don't read the pertinent article.
16:40:45 <ehird> lament: I can play the assertion game too: you're wrong.
16:41:03 <nooga> i've scanned the article
16:41:17 <ehird> nooga: if you actually read it, what you said would have been answered.
16:41:20 <ehird> I link for a reason.
16:41:57 <nooga> probably=, somehow, i omitted that part
16:44:30 <nooga> btw. is Cyclone nice?
16:45:04 <pikhq> ehird: What you propose is akin to Haskell without a RTS.
16:45:33 <ehird> <pikhq> Now, marvel in amazement as I construct an analogy that doesn't work to prove me right!
16:46:22 <pikhq> Y'know, you're busy being really stupid. Go off and write your no-kernel OS, and shut up about it until you've got a proof of concept, please?
16:46:51 <ehird> Argumentum ad shutus up yourest stupidus.
16:48:07 <ehird> and people accuse me of making bad arguments to avoid admitting I'm wrong.
16:48:30 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:49:07 <nooga> ooooooouch, that felt almost like dividing by 0
16:49:26 <ehird> nooga: almost as good an argument as pikhq's
16:50:22 <nooga> i just asked what if you're wrong
16:51:08 <pikhq> ehird: Sorry, but I feel like you're proposing the moon landing was fake, and you're not actually defending it with anything but "ZOMG". So please, just show me that this is even freaking *possible*.
16:52:16 <ehird> How can I prove that it's possible to write a piece of software without one god object orchestrating everything?
16:52:26 <ehird> Well, do allow me to point to every single piece of well-designed software ever.
16:52:58 <pikhq> A piece of software that inherently has a god object.
16:53:08 <GregorR-L> Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
16:53:39 <ehird> pikhq: ...do you realise that that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to prove?
16:53:48 <GregorR-L> Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
16:53:56 <pikhq> No it doesn't. Write an OS without one.
16:54:15 <pikhq> Or just do what Gregor is doing, and become a cow.
16:54:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: Shut the fuck up. I know you don't like it when the discussion in here is anything other than mindless meander about hats, but if you don't like an argument, ignore it.
16:54:33 <ehird> pikhq: I. am. writing. one.
16:54:44 <ehird> You don't seem to comprehend this.
16:54:47 <GregorR-L> ehird: There are plenty of discussions in here I like. Retarded and totally pointless arguments aren't amongst them.
16:55:11 <ehird> Certainly, O GregorR-L, supreme arbiter of What Bores GregorR-L And Thus Is Retarded.
16:55:28 <GregorR-L> Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
16:55:56 <pikhq> ehird: Then please, continue doing so.
16:55:58 <ehird> Whenever you talk about hats, maybe I'll spam "Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa."
16:56:01 <nooga> ehird: O ehird, supreme arbiter of What Bores Elliot And Thus Is Retarded Or Wrong.
16:56:16 <ehird> pikhq: And never say a single word until it's done. Sure thing!
16:56:23 <pikhq> This argument is getting in the way of you actually having such an OS.
16:56:34 <ehird> nooga: funny thing; if you look closely, my line has context and yours has none.
16:56:57 <pikhq> Moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
16:56:59 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
16:56:59 <ehird> pikhq: like I'd be coding an OS at 5pm after having not slept a whole night and on IRC.
16:57:13 <nooga> funny thing, if you look closely, my line is true and your is not
16:57:30 <pikhq> Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
16:57:35 <nooga> Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
16:58:26 <ehird> You're all blathering, ad-hominem loving, "la la la I can't hear you" idiots.
17:00:29 <pikhq> The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
17:00:43 <ehird> If you'll notice, I have not used an insult or
17:00:56 <nooga> ehird: go play with your big, warm, nice cup of STFU
17:01:04 <ehird> in the place of an argument once in this "argument" (more like you flinging shit around while I attempt to put down my thoughts)
17:01:10 <pikhq> Actually, go to bed.
17:01:29 <nooga> ehird: you're always putting down my thoughts
17:01:53 <ehird> Congratulations, your English parser cannot handle words with more than one meaning.
17:02:54 <ehird> You're all dumb as a sack of bricks and can't even muster up the rationality to argue with valid reasoning instead of using fallacies (like begging the question) and saying "moo". I have nothing more to say to such people.
17:03:02 <ehird> Let me know when you're all sane.
17:03:03 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:03:12 <pikhq> So, ehird got a stick in his vagina.
17:03:48 <oklopol> pikhq's and ehird's conversation was kinda weird, neither had any arguments, but pikhq's lack of arguments was a deadly sin, even though he was the one aware of his lack of arguments
17:04:24 <pikhq> That was a freaking weird shouting match.
17:04:34 <oklopol> well, except ehird did paste that link
17:04:56 <pikhq> Which was a page of someone else having the same rant.
17:05:19 <oklopol> well i don't know about that, but it might've had arguments.
17:05:53 <oklopol> still, whether or not it did, linking is an annoying way to have a synchronous conversation
17:05:53 <pikhq> "Well, we just chop off the kernel and EVERYTHING WORKS!"
17:09:44 <pikhq> Erlang has such an awful type system.
17:10:03 <pikhq> It's all "dynamic" and "magic and fairy dust".
17:14:35 <AnMaster> to ehird when he is back from log reading: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/270798
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17:34:58 <AnMaster> <pikhq> It's all "dynamic" and "magic and fairy dust". <-- that is a downside yes
17:35:08 <AnMaster> it isn't strongly typed indeed
17:35:50 <pikhq> Also, it seems a bit... Wordy.
17:36:26 <AnMaster> and yes, I'm sure there are more compact languages, and ones even more wordy
17:36:27 <pikhq> Erm. Not so much wordy as it is... Punctuation-y.
17:36:39 <pikhq> foo(bar,baz,qux,quux) % Why?
17:36:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh yes, you mean using ,;. instead of {} or indention?
17:37:16 <AnMaster> what is wrong with foo(bar,baz,qux,quux), quite a lot of parameters, but I can't see anything actually wordy in it
17:37:30 <pikhq> It just looks wrong.
17:37:34 <oklopol> well clearly it isn's haskell
17:37:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, I fail to see why it looks wrong
17:37:57 <pikhq> There's also the export syntax. Eeeew.
17:38:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, and well, the marking of blocks with ,;. is something you get used to
17:38:21 <AnMaster> a bit irritating in the beginning
17:38:33 <AnMaster> but after a while you get used to that
17:39:08 <AnMaster> it is just an attribute that takes a list of function/arity
17:39:09 <pikhq> Saying how many arguments there are to the function being exported?
17:39:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, foo/1 and foo/2 are different functions
17:39:25 <pikhq> Come on! Doesn't the compiler know that already?
17:39:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, except you can have foo with 2 and foo with 3 paramters in the same file
17:39:45 <AnMaster> in fact quite common idiom too
17:39:48 <pikhq> Hate the type system so much.
17:39:59 <AnMaster> foo(Argument) % Wrapper function that calls:
17:40:52 <oklopol> pikhq: idea is to export only the right version
17:40:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, and well, I assume you hate anything that isn't strictly typed then?
17:41:08 <pikhq> At this point, yes.
17:41:23 <oklopol> because of dynamic typing, the amount of arguments is the only distinction
17:41:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, so are you saying you hate scheme?
17:41:32 <oklopol> between two functions of the same name
17:41:36 <pikhq> I don't know Scheme, actually.
17:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and brainfuck, and most other esolangs
17:42:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Needs better typesystems!
17:42:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, a function can have several entry points
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17:42:37 <AnMaster> foo(X, Acc) -> foo(X-1, Acc*2).
17:42:44 <oklopol> NO, YOU NEED A MICROKERNEL FOR THAT
17:42:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ehird bolted.
17:42:58 <AnMaster> foo(X) when is_integer(X), X < 0
17:43:01 <GregorR-L> Good show though, pikhq and oklopol :P
17:43:31 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, atm pikhq is ranting about dynamic typing
17:43:44 <oklopol> i would've gone on with it if AnMaster wasn't suck a i'll just go on with my explanation even though GregorR just came back and we could like totally screw with him -ist
17:43:54 <pikhq> It is the antiHaskell, and I like haskell.
17:44:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh sorry, I didn't notice what you were trying to do
17:44:51 <oklopol> AnMaster: ah, patterns right
17:45:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, erlang is rather keen on pattern matching when possible
17:45:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, you can pattern match most stuff, and you unpack byte "arrays" with pattern matching too
17:46:03 <AnMaster> byte arrays are mostly used for when talking to external programs
17:46:11 <AnMaster> like, reading a binary protocol, or reading a binary file
17:46:18 <AnMaster> well, they aren't really arrays either
17:46:26 <AnMaster> you don't work with them like an array
17:46:31 <AnMaster> nor like a cons style list either
17:46:48 <AnMaster> in erlang, it is just called "a binary"
17:47:01 <oklopol> uh erlang had those fancy bit matchings
17:47:13 <AnMaster> that is what you use for matching binaries
17:49:02 <oklopol> i don't think i've ever even written a function in erlang, but i remember reading the code of something like a tic-tac-toe server, dunno
17:49:13 <AnMaster> 1> DataReadFromFile = <<1,2,3,4,5,6,7>>
17:49:27 <oklopol> and part of a book, although i think functional programming was too hard for me to read back then 8|
17:49:32 <AnMaster> 2> <<Len:16/integer,Data/binary>> = DataReadFromFile.
17:50:25 <AnMaster> by default erlang uses big endian for binaries
17:50:25 <AnMaster> so, make that integer-little for little endian
17:50:48 <oklopol> <:.> are my favorites of the whole ascii, methinks
17:50:55 <AnMaster> 5> <<LenLittle:16/integer-little,Data/binary>> = DataReadFromFile.
17:51:07 <AnMaster> reason it prints out that at the match
17:51:15 <AnMaster> that the value of the whole match expression
17:51:31 <AnMaster> every expression in erlang has a value
17:51:37 <AnMaster> and basically everything is an expression
17:51:52 <AnMaster> you can even do X = case X of ....
17:52:33 <oklopol> i just didn't remember how the binary thing worked
17:52:34 <AnMaster> (value of case would be value of last expression evaluated inside the case block, which would depend on what branch was taken)
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17:52:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, you can use the <<>> matching both ways. That is, to construct a binary too
17:53:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, I really like erlang, type system could be better, but it is there optionally. As a annotation + static analyser tool
17:53:46 <AnMaster> read more about dialyzer and -spec/-type annotations
17:53:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, that should make you able to live with it
17:56:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: Needs to be a Haskell library.
17:56:43 <pikhq> The nice concurrency stuff.
17:56:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, erlang as a haskell library. Hah Hah.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, it is pretty much tied into the language
17:57:05 <AnMaster> all the distribution stuff too
17:57:24 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Needs to be a very large patch against GHC.
17:58:31 <pikhq> Deewiant: There's also the code hot-swapping stuff.
17:58:33 <AnMaster> oh and it supports watchdogs for beam too
17:58:40 <AnMaster> (beam is the name of the runtime/VM)
17:58:53 <AnMaster> (as well as the extension of compiled erlang files)
17:58:53 <Deewiant> pikhq: That's not outside library capabilities
17:59:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and there is more you don't yet know about
17:59:20 <pikhq> I'm only starting.
17:59:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, SCTP support for example
17:59:47 <AnMaster> would be possible in haskell of course
17:59:56 <AnMaster> but, my point is, it would be a lot of work
18:00:17 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_Control_Transmission_Protocol
18:01:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about stuff like... SNMP support? The built in transaction database mnesia? It supports being distributed over several nodes btw. With fallbacks and what not
18:02:15 <AnMaster> it uses the ets tables (mutable storage inside erlang, only use it if profiling shows that dict or similar isn't enough!)
18:02:35 <AnMaster> for example, efunge uses ets for the funge space.
18:02:51 <AnMaster> anyway, ets would be a bit messy in haskell
18:03:00 <AnMaster> what with haskell wanting to be pure and such
18:03:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, provides one indexed column only. (as in, you can't make more than one column indexed, if you need that, use full blown mneisa)
18:03:51 <oklopol> did erlang have first-class funcs
18:03:57 <AnMaster> though, mneisa gives you overhead of transactions
18:04:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, now, I always mix those words up. Is that like continuation, or closure?
18:04:27 <pikhq> So, there's something in Erlang's favor: absurdly comprehensive libraries for concurrent, fault-tolerant programs.
18:04:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: Closure.
18:04:49 <AnMaster> closures are not uncommon in erlang code
18:05:07 <pikhq> Erlang is a functional programming language.
18:05:15 <pikhq> I would *hope* that closures are quite common.
18:05:29 <pikhq> Given that... Every function is a closure...
18:05:35 <AnMaster> and passing other functions as return values/parameters is also common (the difference between closure functions and functions compiled in the module, is minimal)
18:05:45 <AnMaster> oh and it has list comprehensions
18:06:01 <oklopol> first-class funcs doesn't necessarily imply closures, closures imply first-class functions though
18:06:12 <pikhq> oklopol: Erm. Well, yeah.
18:06:15 <oklopol> and yes, good point, i guess it wouldn't be much of a functional programming language without closures
18:06:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-class_function#Erlang
18:06:48 <AnMaster> oklopol, it doesn't have continuations or backtracking though.
18:06:57 <oklopol> but you know you can pass those process id thingies along, but i guess it would be annoying to use that for all your closure needs
18:06:57 <AnMaster> but, I guess you could emulate that behaviour if you wanted
18:07:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, passing process ids around is quite common :)
18:07:22 <AnMaster> oh another thing binaries are good for
18:07:54 <AnMaster> each process has it's own garbage collected heap, this is for concurrency reasons. SMP + the "shared heap" mode just didn't work out well, it was tried.
18:08:14 <AnMaster> as an effect of this, sending messages between processes result in copies of the data
18:08:22 <AnMaster> this is not true for larger binaries
18:08:29 <AnMaster> since they are stored refcounted in a shared heap
18:08:38 <AnMaster> larger = more than 64 bytes iirc
18:09:09 <AnMaster> oh and binary matching is fast
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18:09:47 <AnMaster> since erlang internally treats most operations on binaries as pointing into an existing binary
18:09:52 <AnMaster> same thing when appending to end
18:10:29 <AnMaster> (it's like appending to the start of a cons list, kind of)
18:11:13 <AnMaster> (as in, erlang stores how long the binary is in the "handle" for it, so different such "handles" can see different sections of the same binary in memory)
18:11:37 <AnMaster> of course, any good language does these sorts of optimisations
18:11:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, so, anything except the type system that you dislike in erlang
18:12:17 <AnMaster> (I don't count the ,.; issue as one, you will get used to it after a few days)
18:12:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, any part of syntax apart from the ,.; ?
18:12:31 <pikhq> But that's a qualm I have with everything, so.
18:13:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, and, I hated erlang syntax when I began. Like I hated LISP syntax when I began. But once you get used to them, so you no longer have to think about the correct syntax in *THIS* language to code in it, it works fine
18:13:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: No "let x in"!
18:13:33 <pikhq> No "where x = foo"!
18:13:50 <AnMaster> pikhq let I assume is like in scheme
18:14:23 <Deewiant> Like let, but after definitions
18:14:23 <pikhq> "where" is a lot like "let".
18:14:28 <oklopol> it's let but it becomes after the scope
18:14:28 <AnMaster> and, scheme-like let isn't something I missed
18:14:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, you are trying to code haskell in erlang right?
18:14:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, believe me, it must be better than how I started out. Which was C-like erlang
18:15:14 <pikhq> No, I'm wishing it was Haskell.
18:15:25 <pikhq> If I were coding Haskell in Erlang, I'd be implementing monads.
18:15:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, monads in erlang would probably slow the whole thing down a lot
18:16:07 <pikhq> Monads are kinda hard to do without the type system supporting it.
18:16:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, write a haskell -> erlang compiler then
18:16:17 <AnMaster> since there is a lisp -> beam compiler
18:16:25 <pikhq> Screw that. Core -> Erlang.
18:16:42 <pikhq> Granted, Core is pretty much Haskell without the sugar.
18:16:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, that would be funny. Because Core is a format internally used in the erlang compiler
18:17:32 <AnMaster> where bytecode may then be converted to native code using HIPE
18:17:46 <AnMaster> at least, I think that is the leayer HIPE hooks into
18:18:00 <AnMaster> (not 100% sure, may work at Core instead)
18:18:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, but, Core is a machine readable format, which is quite unreadable to humans!
18:18:50 <AnMaster> (oh and it is "Core Erlang" it seems, but everyone just seems to call it "core" in #erlang and such)
18:18:52 <pikhq> And Haskell compilation goes like: Haskell -> Core -> Extensive whole-program transformation -> (Either (C -> Assembly) Assembly)
18:19:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that really "Core Haskell"?
18:19:13 <AnMaster> but everyone just calls it "core"?
18:20:14 <Deewiant> It's "<compiler> Core" where compiler is GHC, YHC, etc.
18:20:27 <Deewiant> (I forget which compilers have Cores)
18:21:30 <pikhq> GHC Core sticks all pattern matching as "case" statements, does all functions as explicit lambdas, and a whole bunch of other stuff.
18:22:06 <pikhq> But it is for the most part a subset of Haskell. (well. Rather, that's the textual representation. GHC just keeps it in a tree unless you ask it to pretty-print it)
18:22:19 <AnMaster> if ehird wrote a haskell compiler I'm sure it wouldn't have a core, rather the ASM layer and the high level parts would fight for control all the time. Using capabilities.
18:22:49 <AnMaster> oh and that asm, would actually be either forth or smalltalk
18:23:27 <pikhq> Erm. Actually, doesn't GHC code generation go by way of C--? Hmm.
18:23:31 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GHC Core sticks all pattern matching as "case" statements, does all functions as explicit lambdas, and a whole bunch of other stuff. <-- pretty sure it is the same, when I made erlc dump the core program
18:23:47 <oklopol> GregorR: COME LOOK ANMASTER MADE A REFERENCE TO YOUR FAVORITE CONVERSATION
18:23:58 <oklopol> i'm sure your new thing is to be reminded of your mooing.
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18:24:23 <AnMaster> multiple function entry points gets turned into one entry point + case
18:24:25 <pikhq> Ehird must be log-reading.
18:24:35 <AnMaster> and all funs and such gets expanding outside
18:24:51 <oklopol> GregorR-L: "if ehird wrote a haskell compiler I'm sure it wouldn't have a core"
18:25:02 <oklopol> seemed to me like that could be seen as a reference
18:25:14 <AnMaster> oh and, list comprehension turns into generated functions
18:25:36 <GregorR-L> Apparently I wrote a bad generational garbage collector at some point, but it has amazingly shit-o cache locality, getting 100x more pagefaults than libgc (PS it's slower)
18:26:13 <AnMaster> so one written in postscript would be slower
18:26:18 <pikhq> GregorR-L: What about the GC for Plof 2?
18:26:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, erlang's GC seems quite good
18:27:08 <GregorR-L> pikhq: IIRC that was ... libgc, plus some reference counting garbage :P
18:27:18 <AnMaster> (I only managed to tip it once, when using huge records with many subrecords and dicts and linked lists and so on nested in various layers)
18:27:32 <pikhq> I forgot, I wrote some of that. *I should know better*.
18:27:39 <AnMaster> (this happened in my bf compiler when handling ais523's "hello world" from gcc-bf=
18:27:55 <AnMaster> (which was even larger than lostking)
18:28:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's GC for Plof.
18:28:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw, what are you trying to write in erlang
18:28:34 <AnMaster> and, I assume you will use OTP
18:28:48 <AnMaster> for the supervision tree of your processes
18:28:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Simple examples.
18:29:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, right. You need to learn the language and basic concurrency before starting to use OTP to make the concurrency implicit (kind of)
18:30:45 <pikhq> Open Telecom Platform.
18:30:48 <AnMaster> OTP handles the (few) tricky race conditions that exists pretty nicely. Those ones are mostly related to the event of "process exiting/dying between checking it exists and doing something with it, replacing that with a better way to do things)
18:30:48 <oklopol> oh-some transaction protocol
18:31:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, the name is pretty much a bad name
18:31:08 <AnMaster> it is really not related to telecom much
18:31:14 <pikhq> It's a standard library.
18:31:45 <AnMaster> well, OTP is actually most of the standard library in erlang iirc
18:31:59 <AnMaster> mostly it actually refers to the supervision trees
18:32:19 <AnMaster> (which is not same SASL as is used for login for mail for example)
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18:32:48 <AnMaster> supervision trees is important for fault tolerance and error logging/handling and such
18:32:58 <AnMaster> SASL is also important for these things
18:33:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I recommend using a book when learning erlang
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18:33:35 <AnMaster> Joe Armstrong's book is pretty good, but maybe a bit dated now
18:33:48 <pikhq> I'm just scrolling through the "getting started" book slowly.
18:33:49 <AnMaster> (Programming in Erlang - Software for a concurrent world)
18:34:00 <AnMaster> which is the one I used to learn erlang
18:34:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, getting started on the web?
18:34:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, I would definitely recommend a good book
18:34:42 <AnMaster> ebook, try piratebay, but I think it is worth paying for
18:34:45 <pikhq> More as a "get a clue WTF everything is" documentation than a comprehensive book, of course.
18:35:14 <nooga> I HATE UNICODE HANDLING IN C++
18:35:42 <nooga> how am i supposed to pass unicode encoded path to fopen() ? HOOH?!
18:35:46 <AnMaster> older ones used some western europe ISO encoding
18:36:10 <AnMaster> nooga, um. Shouldn't you use a filestream object kind of thingy?
18:36:46 <pikhq> nooga: Assuming GNU C, UTF-8 encoded.
18:36:47 <AnMaster> if you are going for C++ I mean
18:36:55 <pikhq> Any where else, good luck?
18:37:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, what erlang version are you using. I always recommend the last stable one
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18:38:37 <pikhq> Whatever's stable in Gentoo.
18:39:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, you won't have unicode that way
18:39:53 <pikhq> Suggest something to keyword?
18:39:55 <AnMaster> go for ~amd64 if you want unicode, good regex (old regex stuff was *slow*)
18:40:26 <pikhq> BTW, you don't need the "~amd64" bit any more; that's implicit.
18:40:53 <AnMaster> Installed versions: 13.2.1(12.42.10 2009-06-17)(doc emacs hipe kpoll sctp smp ssl tk wxwindows -java -odbc)
18:41:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, I would definitely recommend hipe and kpoll. And doc if you plan to program
18:41:37 <pikhq> I have doc enabled system-wide.
18:42:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, the erlang mode for emacs is very nice, but kate works fine too
18:42:04 <AnMaster> haven't tried any other editor
18:42:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, and as I said, if you have multiple cpus, or dual core, use +smp
18:42:47 <AnMaster> otherwise most apps won't work
18:43:12 <AnMaster> I guess they will use wxwindows in the future
18:43:20 <AnMaster> but that support is new in R13B
18:43:29 <AnMaster> so most apps are still using TK
18:43:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, wait, you were/are a TCL fan right?
18:43:48 <AnMaster> so I guess you have tk useflag on then
18:44:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, does TCL use dynamic typing?
18:44:06 <pikhq> Tcl's my prefered imperative language.
18:44:40 <pikhq> Though actually there's only one type. A string.
18:44:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, erlang has no strings. They are just lists of integers
18:45:16 <pikhq> Procedures treat this in varying ways, netting you something a lot like dynamic typing.
18:45:28 <pikhq> But it's all string manipulation.
18:45:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, that sounds worse than erlang's system
18:45:56 <AnMaster> different functions could represent integers different ways
18:46:05 <AnMaster> one could use localized integer format
18:46:13 <pikhq> Yes, but they don't.
18:46:13 <AnMaster> while another always used . for decimal point
18:46:23 <AnMaster> (Swedish use , for decimal separator)
18:46:52 <nooga> I can't use iostream
18:46:53 <pikhq> Because the standard number-handling procedures (expr and tcl::math::*) treat it the same way.
18:47:03 <nooga> i'm faking MFC's CFile class
18:47:08 <pikhq> And only someone truly insane wouldn't.
18:47:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about representing something like a struct
18:47:24 <nooga> and i can't even pass wchar_t* fo fopen as a path
18:47:28 <pikhq> Why, you'd use a list.
18:47:28 <AnMaster> a data type with some fixed keys, each having a value
18:47:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is also a string?
18:47:53 <pikhq> But there are functions for treating a strign as a list.
18:47:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, an escaped string I presume?
18:48:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, you would need to *escape* the string, and handle that
18:48:22 <pikhq> No, you just use the list handling functions.
18:48:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about nested lists? And such
18:48:49 <AnMaster> oh and what about a binary search tree
18:48:55 <pikhq> list foo [list bar baz]
18:48:56 <AnMaster> that is, implemented in an efficient way
18:49:26 <nooga> i wonder is it possible to fully infer types in sadol program so i could use simple types in sadol compiler's C output
18:49:39 <pikhq> Strictly speaking, all this is implemented efficiently. What I'm describing is just its semantics. The interpreter actually represents all this things in a sane way.
18:50:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, so... list isn't actually stored as a string?
18:50:02 <pikhq> These things, even.
18:50:05 <AnMaster> unless you want to look at it that way
18:50:14 <AnMaster> in which case it has to translate it to a string?
18:50:23 <pikhq> A list isn't actually stored as a string until you ask for a string representation.
18:50:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, so list is a BIF I presume?
18:50:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes, a common word in the erlang world
18:51:12 <AnMaster> a function that is not coded in erlang, but part of the erlang VM
18:51:20 <AnMaster> all functions in the module erlang are like that
18:51:24 <pikhq> Yeah, it's built in.
18:51:30 <AnMaster> and then there are some outside
18:51:42 <AnMaster> that is implemented as BIF for speed reasons
18:51:45 <pikhq> There's quite a few built in functions in Tcl.
18:51:53 <pikhq> Because there's hardly any syntax.
18:51:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, the list is quite long for erlang too
18:52:02 <AnMaster> certainly much longer than most LISPs
18:52:11 <AnMaster> but a lot deal with concurrency or data types
18:52:13 <pikhq> Twelve syntax and semantic rules.
18:53:25 <pikhq> http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm There's the whole thing.
18:53:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh btw, you can find the source code for erlang in places like /usr/lib/erlang/lib/stdlib-1.16.2/
18:54:01 <AnMaster> "application" is a word for and erlang concept
18:54:17 <AnMaster> err, meant /usr/lib/erlang/lib/stdlib-1.16.2/src
18:54:29 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/erlang/lib/stdlib-1.16.2/ebin would contain the compiled files for example
18:54:57 <pikhq> Because of Tcl's quite simple semantics, metaprogramming is rather nice in it.
18:55:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about that last trule
18:55:38 <AnMaster> is there any way to work around it
18:55:42 <AnMaster> like some sort of eval or such
18:56:00 <pikhq> There's "eval" and there's {*}.
18:56:19 <pikhq> {*}{foo bar baz} is the same as writing out foo bar baz
18:56:43 <pikhq> Before that, there was the "eval" function.
18:57:01 <pikhq> nooga: Without {*}, {foo bar baz} would be a single word, instead of three.
18:57:03 <AnMaster> if you want short descriptions of languages, I guess some sort of cellular automaton would win
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18:58:59 <nooga> AnMaster: what do you mean?
19:03:06 <pikhq> It's a shame that Tcl doesn't have lambda builtin.
19:03:12 <pikhq> It breaks no semantics...
19:08:41 <pikhq> Eh, you can manage it pretty well by letting unknown know that it should expand the first word with {*} and then proc lambda {arg body} {return [list apply [list $args $body]]}.
19:11:19 <pikhq> (if Tcl can't evaluate something, it passes the entire command to the unknown proc)
19:12:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is some function invoked when there is an unknown function in erlang, normally it tries to load the matching module, and fails it it can't find that module
19:13:38 <pikhq> Normally, unknown just does error handling.
19:14:02 <pikhq> But, you can do this quite easily: proc unknown args [list {your code here} [info body unknown]]
19:14:02 <nooga> we don't like langs that care about whitespace?
19:15:57 <oklopol> no, we don't, that's our thing
19:18:09 <nooga> better SADOL with normal multi-character identifiers and literals would have to care about whitespace
19:18:41 <nooga> otherwise lexical analysis would be impossible, since you don't declare identifiers before you use them
19:22:02 * pikhq is not amused with the idea of functions which can't be done in pure Erlang that are referentially transparent
19:23:20 <pikhq> The only functions in Haskell that aren't themselves written in Haskell are in the IO monad.
19:23:36 <pikhq> (and `seq` and `par` and other such hacks)
19:24:03 <oklopol> atom_to_list can't be done at all?
19:24:16 <oklopol> or what would you need for that
19:24:46 <pikhq> case x of (every single atom -> every single atom as a string) end.
19:25:09 <oklopol> or do you mean it'd be infinite
19:25:13 <pikhq> ... Because that would be a function of infinite length.
19:25:18 <oklopol> the same thing would happen when defining (+) in haskell
19:25:37 <oklopol> unless you define numbers as naturals, but then again you could define your own atoms in erlang, as lists
19:25:43 <oklopol> and i'm somewhat right, yes
19:25:45 <pikhq> You can't use that function in a guard.
19:26:11 <pikhq> (they restrict what can be used in a guard to avoid side effects somewhat)
19:26:30 <pikhq> PIKHQ HATE SIDE EFFECTS IN HIS FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGE
19:27:11 <pikhq> PIKHQ WANT GRAPH REDUCTION
19:27:18 <GregorR-L> Plof wurve side effects in his functional language :P
19:27:59 <pikhq> Plof is clearly a multi-paradigm language.
19:28:17 <pikhq> Implemented using metaprogramming.
19:28:55 <GregorR-L> I've come to the conclusion that the GGC I just stumbled across in codu.org/projects is salvageable, and may even be fast, if I fix a few things.
19:29:44 <pikhq> Nice blank Trac page, BTW.
19:30:30 <pikhq> That looks like a very small GC.
19:31:52 <GregorR-L> There, the Trac page is now not entirely blank, happy? :P
19:31:58 <pikhq> ... Is that wrapping Boehm GC?
19:32:33 <GregorR-L> The (n+1)th generation, where n is the number of generations implemented by GGC, is libgc.
19:32:48 <pikhq> You are stunningly lazy.
19:33:16 <GregorR-L> That's pretty much the standard way of doing such a thing. Copying objects that are so long-lived and so few that they literally never trigger a libgc collection in any of my tests is pretty pointless.
19:33:17 <pikhq> Whether that is an insult or high praise, I'm not sure.
19:34:29 * pikhq needs to look up generational garbage collection
19:35:47 <pikhq> Okay, that makes perfect sense.
19:36:07 <pikhq> Still somewhat lazy to use libgc for it, but makes sense.
19:36:28 <GregorR-L> And besides, like I said, I've never triggered a libgc collection, so who cares? :P
19:36:34 <GregorR-L> I could use malloc for that and get the same result :P
19:37:48 <pikhq> Basically you're just using libgc so you don't have to actually *implement* the final generation.
19:38:22 <GregorR-L> The final generation would probably just be mark-and-sweep anyway, so why would I implement it? :)
19:40:57 <pikhq> So, GGC makes sense until I get to the collect function.
19:41:02 <pikhq> I'm going to assume that's magic.
19:43:41 <pikhq> That seems like a very Tclish thing.
19:44:07 <pikhq> (if {0} { ... } is used for block comments, since { ... } will never be evaluated, and thus, never parsed.)
19:44:53 <GregorR-L> Well, this is C, so it will be parsed ;)
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19:46:02 <pikhq> Anyways. Looks to me like the only hard thing about making Plof use that is rewriting all the memory accesses to use your macros.
19:46:09 <pikhq> So, painful, but trivial.
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19:46:25 <GregorR-L> Yuh, but it's not a good idea until I can be at least somewhat sure that this'll be faster than libgc :P
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19:46:55 <AnMaster> <pikhq> So, GGC makes sense until I get to the collect function.
19:47:16 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: GGC is a garbage collector. The collect function is ... the collector.
19:48:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, "referentially transparent"?
19:48:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: No side effects.
19:49:02 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ... Because that would be a function of infinite length. <-- heheh, I'm not going to tell you something about this until the day you really love erlang. And hopefully by that day they fixed it.
19:49:16 <AnMaster> In fact, it is planned to be fixed for the next major release
19:49:54 <pikhq> y = f(x) % And f does nothing other than some manipulation of x and return y. If you put in x, f returns y. Always.
19:50:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, erlang atoms are limited to 255 chars currently iirc.
19:50:11 <nooga> nobody expects GCC and RMS
19:50:18 <pikhq> f(x) -> x+2 % That's referentially transparent.
19:50:37 <pikhq> f(x) -> io:format("~w~n", x) % That's not.
19:51:52 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> libgc is good stuff :P <-- bohem-gc?
19:52:17 <HackEgo> Hans Boehm's page on the widely used Boehm-Demers-Weiser conservative garbage collector for C/C++. The Boehm-Demers-Weiser conservative garbage collector ... \ www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ - [16]Cached - [17]Similar
19:52:30 <nooga> personally i think this is shiet
19:52:45 <nooga> because of C++'s idiotic strict syntax
19:53:09 <GregorR-L> I've never used it with C++ *shrugs*
19:53:24 <nooga> it should be just fine with C
19:53:29 <pikhq> GregorR-L: It replaces new.
19:54:00 <GregorR-L> I suppose that's an issue if you want to sometimes use malloc()-based and sometimes not?
19:54:17 <nooga> pools are good idea
19:54:31 <nooga> and then release pool
19:54:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, the bad bit, that they plan fixing to the next major version is that atoms are stored in a pool of atoms, and that pool is size limited, and not garbage collected. The size is rather huge though. IIRC 2^30 or something like that. But yeah, they plan to fix it
19:54:39 <pikhq> Also, nice use of if(0). ;)
19:55:57 <pikhq> lists:map(fun convert_to_c/1, List) % THIS IS MORE TYPING THAN IT SHOULD BE
19:56:02 <pikhq> GRAAWW NEED TYPE INFERENCE
19:58:31 <nooga> TYPE INFERENCE IS ÜBER COOL
20:00:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> lists:map(fun convert_to_c/1, List) % THIS IS MORE TYPING THAN IT SHOULD BE
20:01:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, use a list comprehension
20:01:04 <pikhq> I was pasting an example in it.
20:01:18 <AnMaster> tell me what convert_to_c does
20:01:26 <pikhq> Converts from Fahrenheit to Celsius.
20:01:30 <pikhq> Contrived example.
20:02:39 <nooga> better listen to funk
20:02:42 <AnMaster> because I'm pretty sure I can write it in a shorter way
20:02:58 <pikhq> http://www.erlang.org/doc/getting_started/seq_prog.html#2.13
20:03:18 * pikhq is being very slow. Damned IRC
20:03:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, ok, that is to demonstrate funs
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20:04:06 <pikhq> It's much more typing than it should be for that.
20:05:36 <AnMaster> okay, not all are in f to begin with
20:05:45 <pikhq> I was going to go with ((\x->(x-32)*5/9)<$>), myself.
20:07:24 <pikhq> Mmmm, partial application.
20:07:54 <pikhq> Deewiant: Oh, sure, if you hate applicative. And want less lambda.
20:08:38 <Deewiant> It should have the same type anyways :-P
20:08:39 <pikhq> oklopol: Partial application of +, and unary -.
20:08:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, if you didn't care about order
20:09:00 <AnMaster> 2> [{Loc,{c,trunc((TempF - 32) * 5 / 9)}} || {Loc,{f,TempF}} <- Temps] ++ [X || X = {_,{c,_}} <- Temps].
20:09:05 <AnMaster> where Temps contains that example list
20:09:13 <AnMaster> yeah, the mixed list messed it up
20:09:18 <AnMaster> I'm sure there is some shorter way
20:09:19 <nooga> !sadol ~f1*-#_0,232/59 !f,3113
20:09:51 <pikhq> AnMaster: That is... Very verbose.
20:10:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah, I could golf it however
20:10:37 <pikhq> map (\x -> (x-32)*5/9) -- is actually how you'd *write* it normally.
20:10:52 <Deewiant> oklopol: Sure: multiply by 5/9
20:11:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. But note the list was mixed c and f
20:11:06 <oklopol> * and / have the same precedence
20:11:07 <Deewiant> pikhq: map ((*5/9) . subtract 32)
20:11:08 <AnMaster> so you should only convert those in f
20:11:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise it would have been much shorter in erlang too
20:11:24 <pikhq> Deewiant: Or that.
20:11:53 <oklopol> doesn't seem to work on mine
20:12:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, something like [{Loc,trunc((Temp-32)*5/9)}||{Loc,Temp}<-Temps].
20:12:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is way less verbose
20:12:40 <pikhq> data TempType = C | F; let f (C, x) = x;f (F, x) = ((*5/9) . subtract 32) in map f
20:12:41 <AnMaster> the mix make it a bad idea to use a list comprehension
20:13:22 <AnMaster> instead of a list comprehension
20:13:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, do it with a list comprehension in haskell please
20:14:45 <pikhq> [(x-32)*5/9 | x <- list]
20:14:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because map is idiomatic Haskell.
20:15:27 <pikhq> Oh, wait, it had locations, didn't it?
20:15:29 <AnMaster> <pikhq> lists:map(fun convert_to_c/1, List) % THIS IS MORE TYPING THAN IT SHOULD BE
20:15:29 <AnMaster> <pikhq> GRAAWW NEED TYPE INFERENCE
20:15:37 <AnMaster> what part would type inference help with
20:16:04 <pikhq> [(loc,(x-32)*5/9) | (loc, x) <- list]
20:16:13 <pikhq> And now for that in parallel!
20:16:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, {Location,{c|f,Temperature::integer}}
20:16:26 <pikhq> [: (loc,(x-32)*5/9) | (loc, x) <- list :]
20:16:33 <AnMaster> either string or atom or integer
20:17:09 <AnMaster> <pikhq> [: (loc,(x-32)*5/9) | (loc, x) <- list :]
20:17:16 <AnMaster> that is about same as the erlang one
20:17:22 <AnMaster> except it added a "trunc" there
20:17:26 <pikhq> In fact, I just did that in Haskell.
20:17:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure the rounding is correct
20:17:50 <AnMaster> because, round towards zero is wrong
20:18:05 <AnMaster> whatever trunc does is correct
20:18:43 <pikhq> Fine, fine. [: (loc, trunc ((x-32)*5/9)) | (loc, x) <- list :]
20:18:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, not much different from the erlang one eh?
20:19:26 <pikhq> The : and : are only to make the comprehension run *in parallel*.
20:19:29 <AnMaster> Loc and X was upper case in Erlang of course
20:20:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm interesting. would go against erlang's paradigm for concurrency though
20:20:25 <AnMaster> not sure how efficient that would be
20:20:41 <pikhq> Haskell provides many ways of doing parallelism and concurrency.
20:20:41 <AnMaster> or, with so little computation done by each thread
20:21:07 <pikhq> Parallel list comprehensions is just one of them.
20:21:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, computing that value is probably faster on a single cpu, unless you split them in two sizable batches
20:21:54 <AnMaster> and even then it wouldn't be noticable
20:22:36 <pikhq> That could be written as: parMap (some parallelism strategy here) $ snd (\x->trunc $ (x-32)*5/9) -- BTW.
20:22:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, overhead of telling another thread (possibly from a pool of worker threads) to do this, would be larger than actually just doing it
20:22:51 <pikhq> Erm. second, not snd.
20:23:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, snd makes it play the notes on a instrument attached through the USB port?
20:23:37 <pikhq> No, snd gets the second value of a two-tuple.
20:23:40 <AnMaster> say, Stradivarius 2.0 (Now with USB 3.0!)
20:23:57 <pikhq> second applies an arrow to the second arrow in a two-tuple.
20:24:17 <pikhq> (a function just happens to be an arrow)
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20:47:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, still erlang does it's job well :P
20:47:42 <AnMaster> whatever you think about it's syntax
20:48:05 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it does it poorly.
20:48:17 <pikhq> Almost everything else simply doesn't *do* it, though.
20:48:32 <AnMaster> well, interesting point of view
20:48:46 * pikhq would like for Haskell to have network transparent MVars.
20:48:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, plan9 would do it, except it doesn't have anything built in to handle the fall back or such
20:49:04 <pikhq> (given that, Haskell
20:49:31 <pikhq> 's concurrency primitives would work just fine for that)
20:49:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh and iirc funs are network transparent in erlang
20:49:50 <AnMaster> I don't remember the details about that
20:50:04 <AnMaster> iirc there *used* to be complex rules, but aren't any more
20:50:08 <AnMaster> so I guess it just works nowdays
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21:19:58 <ehird> that convert_to_celsius makes me rage.
21:20:03 <ehird> time to do some Jew^WK magic
21:21:39 -!- andi___ has changed nick to andi_.
21:21:57 <ehird> also silly % No conversion needed / % Do the conversion comments
21:22:22 <AnMaster> ehird, remember the format: a list of 2-tuple (location,(c or f, temperature))
21:22:30 <ehird> I am well aware, thanks.
21:22:40 <AnMaster> but note all the info should be there
21:22:46 <ehird> However, I will just deal with (c or f,temperature); as location isn't processed, it should not be part of the function input.
21:22:56 <ehird> Instead, (location,convert (c or f,temp)) should be the call.
21:23:06 <ehird> No, this is not identical to the example; yes, this is saner coding.
21:23:08 <ais523> wait, wtf is going on here?
21:23:22 <ais523> also, that data structure is really weird, why use something like that in anything but Unlambda
21:24:06 <ais523> I mean, nesting them like that
21:24:06 <ais523> why (location, (c or f, temperature)) rather than (location, c or f, temperature)
21:24:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so I guess it is a generic tempature tuple
21:24:17 <ehird> (c or f, temperature) represents a temperature
21:24:22 <ehird> then (location, temp)
21:24:23 <AnMaster> but that might be attached to, say, another tuple
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21:26:17 <AnMaster> reference counting has a nice property (assuming non concurrent execution): You can optimise a modification into a destructive update, instead of a copy and change, if you know you have the only reference
21:26:43 <ehird> that's a property of all gc
21:27:16 <oklopol> all gc knows whether there's just one reference to an object?
21:29:27 <ehird> conv2c:{(`c;(x[1];f2c[x[1]])[x[0]~`f])}
21:32:09 <ehird> 12:21:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, computing that value is probably faster on a single cpu, unless you split them in two sizable batches
21:32:17 <ehird> it uses advanced vectorisation stuffs
21:32:20 <ehird> cleverer than that
21:34:17 <ehird> btw, conv2c can also be written
21:34:18 <ehird> conv2c:{(`c;:[x[0]~`c;x[1];fsc[x[1]]])}
21:34:24 <ehird> using a conditional like it should be
21:34:30 <ehird> instead of an icky array index
21:34:43 <ehird> but this example is _very_ tenuous
21:34:49 <ehird> who stores temperatures in this way?
21:35:10 <ehird> if two different sources for two different cities give a different scale, convert it in the source backend
21:35:20 <ehird> don't keep them mingled and convert them before displaying!
21:38:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> that's a property of all gc <-- not of mark and speed
21:39:13 <ehird> you can still do it
21:39:54 <ehird> pretty sure ghc used to do mark and sweep
21:40:01 <ehird> that's static analysis iirc
21:40:07 <ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
21:40:48 <AnMaster> ignore taking effect from (and including) the line <ehird> THIS ONE TIME
21:40:57 <AnMaster> `addquote <ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
21:40:58 <HackEgo> 72|<ehird> ignore me, i'm full of bullshit
21:41:17 <ehird> `addquote <AnMaster> ehird, well yes probably
21:41:18 <HackEgo> 73|<AnMaster> ehird, well yes probably
21:41:25 <ehird> It's not much, but we must fight with the weapons we have.
21:41:36 <ehird> Me admitting I'm full of shit, you half-agreeing with me.
21:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I feel mine is like a nuke to your dagger
21:42:25 <ehird> more like Concrete Donkey vs Prod.
21:42:29 <AnMaster> and that dagger being made out of stone
21:42:34 <ehird> we're talking targeted weapons here, after all.
21:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: A gigantic concrete donkey comes out of the sky and repeatedly bashes the land and worms until it hits the sea.
21:43:21 <ehird> It's, uhh... fairly rare.
21:43:34 <ehird> ...Prod being infinitely common, and being useful if you happen to be right next to a worm that's on the very edge of some land with some sea next to it.
21:43:37 <ehird> Well, water, not sea.
21:43:42 <AnMaster> ehird, guided arrow? vs. uh... AIM-9 Sidewinder?
21:43:47 <ehird> true if the Taiwan calendar is hidden; otherwise, false. By default, this method returns true and the Taiwan calendar cannot be displayed for the following SPLangId values: PeoplesRepublicofChina, HongKongSAR, and MacaoSAR.
21:43:47 <ehird> — http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms441219.aspx
21:44:35 <ais523> where did you find that?
21:44:39 <ais523> as in, who/what linked you to it?
21:45:05 <ehird> http://learnyousomeerlang.com/
21:45:05 <ehird> erlang community--
21:45:17 <ehird> okay, so learn you a haskell was similar in style to why's poignant guide, except not
21:45:24 <ehird> "It has cartoons, and, and, is funny!"
21:45:28 <ehird> But that's just a direct 1:1 ripoff.
21:45:48 <ehird> mh, bonus gave permission
21:47:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://learnyousomeerlang.com/ <-- didn't I see something like that for haskell too?
21:47:04 <fizzie> Engfeh. Finally got a picture on the third monitor, and now it seems that Xinerama disables XRandR completely, but the only rotation support in the "radeon" driver is via XRandR. I guess Xinerama is sort-of deprecated, but XRandR itself is not capable of merging screens from two different graphics cards.
21:47:06 <AnMaster> also I never seen that site before
21:47:15 <ehird> 21:45] ehird: erlang community--
21:47:16 <ehird> [21:45] ehird: okay, so learn you a haskell was similar in style to why's poignant guide, except not
21:47:16 <ehird> [21:45] ehird: "It has cartoons, and, and, is funny!"
21:47:16 <ehird> [21:45] ehird: But that's just a direct 1:1 ripoff.
21:47:16 <ehird> [21:45] ehird: mh, bonus gave permission
21:47:18 <ehird> [21:45] ehird: still lameo.
21:47:23 <ehird> You win the "cannot read two lines forward" award.
21:47:30 <ehird> Two. damn. Lines. Directly after.
21:48:13 <ehird> http://poignantguide.net/ruby/
21:48:42 <ehird> Cartoon foxes + cartoon everything + a good helping of what can only be LSD + oh yeah, some programming on the side + it has a goddamn soundtrack album + it's a book + SOUNDTRACK ALBUM = that.
21:48:57 <ehird> also, pretty fun book.
21:49:11 <ehird> despite not having been added to since like 200x for some value of x.
21:50:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the word "poignant" mean?
21:51:06 <ehird> Like unto a wiktionary and/or google.com. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/poignant
21:59:54 <fizzie> This is so ungood it's not even fun. It seems that I can only get the three monitor setup working without Xinerama, and that means no Firefox on two monitors, or moving windows around.
22:00:31 <ehird> Firefox on two monitors? but your monitors have borders it'll be awful for content that goes across >_<
22:08:45 <pikhq> Conkeror on two monitors would be pretty awesome, though.
22:09:22 <ehird> pikhq: ... that does not change the page body at all.
22:09:32 <pikhq> ehird: Two buffers, side by side.
22:09:39 <pikhq> *Not* a single page on both screens.
22:09:41 <ehird> hel | | | | lo, world!
22:09:44 <pikhq> That just would hurt.
22:09:45 <ehird> pikhq: Well, right.
22:09:50 <ehird> That's what fizzie's doing, I think.
22:09:57 <ehird> Since I don't think firefox does splitscreen.
22:10:31 <ehird> also, anyone who hasn't seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmpIEbiRyCU&fmt=22 should rectify that.
22:10:32 <pikhq> BTW, Erlang is awful. Its concurrency primitives are pretty good. Everything else is just *bad*.
22:11:30 <pikhq> Oh, and code hot swapping. That's a nice feature.
22:11:38 <ehird> the language itself is a crappy relic
22:12:00 <ehird> (like all non-K languages amirite)
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22:14:51 <fizzie> Huh? Of course I mean two different firefox windows, both tiled fullscreen on the two separate monitors. And that's what firefox seems unable to do without Xinerama, since it insists on having all its windows on the same screen. And I really don't want to run two instances of firefox, with two different profiles.
22:15:50 <fizzie> Anyway, I had of course forgotten the simple solution, which was just to swap some cables around and use the static "Rotate" "left" option of the nvidia driver to control that rotated screen. Which I guess is all well and good, since turns out the radeon driver didn't 2d-accelerate rotated modes.
22:19:13 <fizzie> Now if I could just figure out why on earth it thinks this 1600x1200 monitor is actually a 1600x1600 monitor.
22:22:53 <fizzie> It just says "Output DVI-0 using initial mode 1600x1200", then "Display dimensions: (408, 306) mm" and "DPI set to (99, 132)". That vertical-DPI value is obviously computed as 1600/(306/25.4).
22:25:19 <nooga> pointless discussion
22:25:35 <nooga> will bring flamewar probably
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22:51:41 <ais523> <Tasonir> Having rechecked this in the hour since my original post, zero is now ahead by 4000 bits. There seems to be people intentionally gaming the system. Although since the system isn't really meant to do anything, I'm not really sure if 'gaming' it is the right term.
23:02:48 <nooga> ehird: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/
23:02:48 <nooga> 22:48 ehird: Cartoon foxes + cartoon everything + a good helping of what can only be LSD + oh yeah, some programming on the side + it has a goddamn soundtrack album + it's a book + SOUNDTRACK ALBUM = that.
23:02:58 <nooga> tell me that this is uncool
23:03:17 <nooga> my ex-girlfriend learned how to code from that guide :P
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23:14:05 <ehird> ais523: eh, I had a script
23:14:10 <ehird> but it didn't work well
23:15:05 <ehird> nooga: why is awesome.
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23:27:25 <ehird> so, occasionally I glance at techcrunch.com's home page just to see how low tabloid tech media is prepared to go these days. Stories include a ranking of URL shortening services, why the author of the post does not use twitter, and the fact that two staff members are having a joking flamewar over iPhone vs Android.
23:27:35 <ehird> When in doubt, make one useless fluff post and two metaposts.
23:28:48 <ehird> And people take this site *seriously*.
23:30:52 <pikhq> A... Ranking of URL shortening services?
23:31:02 <ehird> Based on average response time and uptime
23:31:09 <ehird> So your tweets are NEVER useless!
23:31:16 <ehird> ...hmm, wait, nevermind.
23:31:21 <ehird> They're probably useless anyway. :P
23:32:24 <ehird> You know what we need? Perfect holographic displays.
23:32:44 <ehird> I want a laptop that can be a 12" ultraportable to a 30" workstation. :P
23:33:22 <ehird> Well, also a hammerspace drive, so that we can store all the extra components required for the 30" version without adding weight.
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00:45:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: http://msm.grumpybumpers.com/?p=20 quantum mario darwinism
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01:31:15 <ehird> GregorR: Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
01:32:02 <pikhq> ehird: psl {[ "Hello, world!" print ]}
01:32:30 <ehird> pikhq: I'd retort in K, but I'm not even sure it has a convenient function for printing to stdout.
01:32:37 <ehird> (`show $ "Hello, world!"). :P
01:32:54 <GregorR> System.out.println("Hello, world!");
01:33:14 <GregorR> class Main { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println("Hello, world!"); } }
01:33:28 <ehird> (insert the enum/static initialiser short java hello world here)
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01:33:47 <ehird> "Hello, world!" could count as a k hello world, I guess.
01:33:57 <pikhq> {print "Hello, world!"} /* Awk */
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04:21:18 <Warrigal_> Would it be feasible to come up with a class of theorem provers known as "first-order-logic-complete" or something, where for every pair of theorem provers X and Y within the class, there is a proof in X that if X is consistent then Y is consistent?
04:23:50 <Warrigal_> And come up with a class of theorem provers that prove each other as consistent as themselves.
04:24:16 <Warrigal_> In order for any of them to be flawed, every single one of them would have to be flawed.
04:28:18 <pikhq> oerjan: Generational garbage collector.
04:28:28 <pikhq> GregorR: Segmentation fault? BEST KIND!
04:28:45 <GregorR> Actually that was more-or-less intentional.
04:28:49 <oerjan> everyone their own type of fault
04:43:04 <pikhq> GregorR: I hate to make you feel derivative, but: http://www.crummy.com/features/dada/
04:43:46 <GregorR> I don't recall claiming that my randomizer was unique.
04:43:53 <oerjan> well to stop feeling derivative, he'll just have to integrate the new knowledge
04:50:45 <GregorR> pikhq: Besides, we're still keeping it in the Richards.* family.
04:51:56 <pikhq> GregorR: I didn't know family names were regular expressions.
04:52:08 <GregorR> Richards is just a contraction of Richardson :P
04:52:57 <pikhq> Or else I shall insist your father was named "Richard", and that your son will be a Gregorson.
04:54:34 <oerjan> clearly it's short for richardsaurus
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07:00:29 <asiekierka> I made a working BF interpreter in GMod :D
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10:49:34 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/computah.html - oh my god this is the worst podcast on the planet earth
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14:54:00 <Sgeo> Ok, just made the symlink. Restarting X-Chat. Wish me luck.
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15:42:17 <AnMaster> for cfunge with non-empty environment
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16:07:28 <Sgeo> Hm, I should make a language where there literally is only one way to do things.
16:07:32 <Sgeo> Probably won't be TC
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16:09:23 <asiekierka> What esolang to implement in gmod now? :(
16:10:48 <Sgeo> How do you implement an esolang in a game?
16:10:53 <Sgeo> asiekierka, it came from some place
16:11:04 <asiekierka> an addon to GMod that allows you to do programming and stuff
16:13:51 <Sgeo> The site that I got the idea from is down
16:14:09 <Sgeo> It was some insane POS about designing a language
16:14:28 <Sgeo> One of the things was that doing something should be done in character-identical ways
16:15:06 <asiekierka> I can't believe you could do complex programs with only one way in it
16:15:17 <Sgeo> Probably not going to have loops
16:15:26 <Sgeo> I'm thinking how arithmatic would be done
16:15:32 <Sgeo> Parenthesis would be required
16:15:55 <Sgeo> asiekierka, but then you could print 1\n1 by either printing 1\n1 or looping
16:16:09 <asiekierka> So don't allow to print more than 1 char at once
16:16:46 <Sgeo> I was thinking maybe only being able to use a statement once at each level
16:16:57 <Sgeo> Not having loops would be easier
16:17:13 <Sgeo> Now, how do I deal with the possibility of an if True: equivalent?
16:18:14 <Sgeo> There are 26 variables, a-z. Variables have to be declared in order
16:18:27 <Sgeo> That is, var b = 1 is wrong if it's the first line, since it needs to be a
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16:18:59 <MigoMipo> Sgeo: Would a big finite-size decision tree work?
16:19:24 <MigoMipo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree
16:20:04 <MigoMipo> Could that be made to simulate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_that_always_halts ?
16:20:34 <Sgeo> Decision trees always halt unless they loop back on themselves
16:24:51 <Sgeo> I don't see a good way to allow arithmatic
16:25:50 <Sgeo> Variables could be either static or dynamic. Only dynamic variables can be used in arithmatic
16:25:55 <Sgeo> var a = get_num();
16:26:07 <Sgeo> Because it comes from user input.
16:26:21 <Sgeo> Maybe I should allow infinite memory
16:26:28 <Sgeo> v[0] = get_num();
16:27:03 <Sgeo> Once a variable is assigned, it must be used before it is reassigned. Or maybe it can't be reassigned.
16:29:49 <Sgeo> * Sgeo is trying to design a programming language where there is exactly one way to do what's needed. No more
16:29:49 <Sgeo> <Spi_Waterwing> Sgeo: binary?
16:30:37 <pikhq> Arithmetic is easy to do with a machine that always halts. Stack machine FTW.
16:30:37 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/kQMoVbEU
16:31:09 <pikhq> Making said machine do more than arithmetic while still always halting is a bit more involved. ;)
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16:45:16 <Sgeo> oerjan, read logs?
16:45:30 <Sgeo> Oh, and no static variables, come to think of it
16:47:30 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Probably won't be TC <-- indeed, probably would violate the undecidability of equivalent programs
16:48:22 <Sgeo> I was talking about it on another channel, and they said I'll fail, because if it's TC (I never said I wanted it to be TC), then there will always be another way, even if it's implementing a turing machine
16:49:17 <oerjan> yes, take two turing machines that are equivalent but not provably so, and translate them both
16:51:23 <pikhq> It's pretty obvious that it's not going to be TC. It's not clear whether or not this will be useful at all.
16:51:35 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's an esolang, how useful can it be?
16:52:01 <Sgeo> I have a feeling that it could be interesting, but I'll mangle it.
16:52:42 <oerjan> if you had two subprograms, they could never be switchable so at a minimum subprograms would have to interfer with each other in a destructive way
16:53:16 <oerjan> assuming sequential commands apply
16:53:55 <Sgeo> You mean, do one thing, then do another, entirely separate thing?
16:54:19 <Sgeo> THat's blocked by the uninteresting requirement that variables be assigned in incrementing order
16:54:30 <Sgeo> So you have to assign to v[5] before you can assign to v[6]
16:54:47 <Sgeo> ...I think I misunderstood you
16:54:58 <oerjan> not really, that does sound like a way
16:55:08 <oerjan> however what about switching + renaming?
16:56:35 <Sgeo> Either there will be no multiplication, or no loops that depend on a variable.
16:57:02 <Sgeo> Otherwise, there's two ways to multiply
16:58:52 <Sgeo> I'm not sure I understand why switching is a problem? Or is that why you said duh?
16:59:29 <oerjan> switching would be a problem if you could do it...
17:00:01 <Sgeo> What do you mean by switching?
17:00:08 <oerjan> now a second problem. if two variables can have the same value then you get two ways of referring to that value later
17:00:35 <Sgeo> Variables can only store user-input. So they may have the same value, or may not.
17:00:42 <Sgeo> Although if we have ifs...
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17:01:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: A B C D -> A C B D, where B and C don't interfer
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17:01:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, isn't that only a problem if B and C don't get user-input or output stuff?
17:02:17 <Sgeo> Otherwise, the program will do something different either way, assuming variables are renamed
17:02:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: so your program sort of depends on _every_ command doing I/O?
17:03:28 <Sgeo> No, but I think we might require every variable to be present in output somehow, to prevent no-ops
17:03:32 <pikhq> So, doing everything in the IO monad, and no recursion?
17:04:23 <Sgeo> Yeah, um, the switching thing:
17:05:22 <Sgeo> Um, was about to post an example, but can't figure it out
17:05:59 <Sgeo> Let's pretend $ is a mathematical operator
17:07:33 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/BTDu67gy
17:07:44 <Sgeo> How do we stop both from being valid?
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17:10:30 <ehird> 08:29:49 <Sgeo> * Sgeo is trying to design a programming language where there is exactly one way to do what's needed. No more
17:10:53 <ehird> It has to be MASSIVELY sub-turing to be possible.
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17:11:06 <Sgeo> ehird, what esolang isn't useless?
17:11:12 <ehird> I don't think you understand.
17:11:18 <ehird> That arithmetic? Forget about it.
17:11:42 <oerjan> hm you probably could do an FSA that way
17:12:09 <pikhq> Well, it may have a form of arithmetic. ... Actually, the only arithmetic possible is useless.
17:12:17 <pikhq> Like, incrementing without decrementing useless.
17:12:22 <ehird> i'm pretty sure peano arithmetic is impossible to make unique
17:12:37 <ehird> consider + 2 then + 2 instead of + 4
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17:13:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your language is going to be less powerful than HQ9+.
17:13:19 <Sgeo> Constants can't be used in arithmetic expressions, only variables.
17:13:31 <Sgeo> And variables need to get their values from user-input
17:13:46 <ehird> pikhq: Yes; you'd have to remove the +.
17:13:59 <Sgeo> Well, actually, wait, constants can be used, maybe
17:14:02 <ehird> http://codepad.org/kQMoVbEU
17:14:04 <ehird> v[2] isn't from user input.
17:14:16 <ehird> Sgeo: just give up, it's impossible
17:14:24 <Sgeo> User-input or derived from user-input
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17:14:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo, it is impossible, without being stupidly sub-turing
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17:15:56 <ehird> 09:14:24 <Sgeo> User-input or derived from user-input
17:16:02 <ehird> you have fallen in to my trap
17:16:16 <ehird> v[2]=v[1]+2;v[3]=v[2]+2;print(v[3])
17:16:25 <ehird> v[3]=v[1]+4;print(v[3])
17:18:01 <Sgeo> hm (btw that's syntactically incorrect, but I see the point)
17:20:52 <Sgeo> ...I don't know how to work around that
17:21:07 <Sgeo> I mean, without forbidding constants in variable assignments
17:21:17 <ehird> Congratulations, you have figured out that it's impossible to do the impossible.
17:21:19 <Sgeo> And if we did that, .. um, actually
17:21:21 <ehird> What's your next breakthrough? :P
17:21:48 <Sgeo> Actually, I see a way around it, I think
17:22:11 <Sgeo> Only one addition operation per user-input, type of thing
17:22:22 * Sgeo is watching a video right now, so not fully focused on this
17:23:36 <ehird> Sgeo: please stop, you're embarrassing yourself with a tarpit
17:23:42 <ehird> futher and further
17:23:54 <ehird> the turing ones hang out on top, you're digging towards the ground underneath
17:24:13 <Sgeo> One addition of a constant, I meant
17:24:21 <AnMaster> I thought this was sub-surface already
17:24:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it is infinitely thin.
17:24:34 <ehird> as soon as you go beneath the top, you hit the ground
17:24:36 <Sgeo> Although adding and subtracting a variable would be problematic
17:24:51 <ehird> Sgeo: Why are you doing this? It's. Impossible.
17:31:09 <pikhq> ehird: He's planning to dine at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, I bet.
17:31:44 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9byek/interview_with_developers_of_menuetos_an_os/c0c706x / wonderful juxtaposition here from losethos
17:31:52 <ehird> (the topic being menuetos)
17:33:41 <pikhq> ehird: The Menuet OS guys seem quite a bit more sane.
17:33:52 <ehird> that was rather the point of the thread i linked
17:34:11 <pikhq> They're just pointless and silly. Losethos is... Crazy.
17:34:19 <pikhq> Like, the embodiment of crazy.
17:34:27 <ehird> methinks you didn't click my link
17:34:57 <pikhq> "It is definitely a battle between these guys and the Losethos guy for who is the most insane"
17:35:14 <ehird> ...and the reply after it...
17:35:44 <Sgeo> Maybe it's a joke?
17:35:56 <ehird> i've researched this
17:36:01 <ehird> losethos is very much mentally insane
17:36:04 <pikhq> No, Losethos is the Time Cube of OS development.
17:36:15 <ehird> at least gene ray is an isolate
17:36:19 <Sgeo> I want to believe!
17:36:26 <Sgeo> I want to believe that it's just a joke!
17:37:29 <ehird> sort(1) doesn't have a --random option, ugh
17:38:33 <ehird> "Just attempting to figure out the inconsistencies behind jailbreak=ok, break a GPL license=no-ok."
17:38:37 <ehird> must not reply to idiots
17:38:39 <ehird> must not reply to idiots
17:39:07 <AnMaster> the menuetos page fails to load
17:40:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's getting Reddit'd and Slashdotted.
17:42:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw, found out why syngergy disables key repeat: for the same reason as x11vnc
17:43:01 <AnMaster> key up and key down events can be delayed a lot
17:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, we discussed it a few days ago
17:43:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, key repeat is done locally on the system that the input is connected to, so it will still work, just not at the local console
17:44:07 <AnMaster> but it prevents spurious repeats
17:45:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, because key down = send key down message, key up = send key up
17:45:54 <AnMaster> because, that would break some programs
17:46:03 <AnMaster> like games, where you want to hold down arrow key or such
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18:17:41 <nooga> weird linker error
18:18:02 <nooga> "vtable for Class", referenced from:
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18:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: any sun in sweden
18:29:44 <FireFly> Or, well, I guess they spell it Sun
18:29:52 <AnMaster> ehird, been sunny today, but have been busy with the course all day. Didn't test
18:30:04 <AnMaster> seemed to work ok close to a window though
18:30:12 <ehird> what i'm reading seems to suggest that direct daylight will make it unreadable
18:30:37 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, anything but brightest was hard to read in direct light through window
18:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, though, the window was slightly shaded
18:31:42 <ehird> brightest backlight through a shaded window just barely works
18:31:43 <FireFly> What's AnMaster supposed to do with the sun?
18:31:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but as I said, didn't have time to test it outside, and the sun is hidden by some hills now
18:31:46 <ehird> sounds like it'll work great!
18:31:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, install solaris on it
18:31:51 <ehird> FireFly: try the display from the ThinkPads on them
18:31:57 <ehird> since it's the same as the one that I want to get
18:32:03 <AnMaster> ehird, my guess is it won't work
18:32:04 <ehird> what i've read suggests it won't work well outside.
18:32:14 <ehird> AnMaster: annoyingly, I found a leaked lenovo roadmap
18:32:34 <ehird> X201 is coming out jan next year
18:32:46 <ehird> i don't care about the hardware - core 2 at 2.4ghz is fine for me -
18:32:50 <ehird> and i don't want to wait until then -
18:32:57 <ehird> but dammit, if it has a better screen!
18:33:08 <ehird> I hope that it uses the same connectors
18:33:12 <ehird> then, I can get a replacement screen for the X201
18:33:15 <ehird> and put it in my X200
18:33:48 <ehird> that would be highly kickass
18:34:42 <ehird> yes. people break displays all the time.
18:35:15 <ehird> I know that someone did a display replacement to one of the current X-series, that involved breaking the bezel
18:35:22 <ehird> but iirc the model he replaced it with differed a bit
18:35:33 <ehird> but then I've read the X200 and X200s connectors differ
18:35:43 <ehird> AnMaster: google it.
18:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezel_setting ?
18:36:38 <ehird> the border surrounding the screen
18:36:59 <ehird> but I'll pretty much buy it now if it'll be possible to make the screen better later, in any way
18:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say you could get it with a LCD or something
18:37:12 <AnMaster> that wasn't the normal TFT type
18:37:12 <ehird> as opposed to what, a CRT?
18:37:17 <ehird> you mean LED backlight.
18:37:23 <ehird> that's on the X200s. though it seems not to have it any more
18:37:34 <ehird> X200s = thinner, lighter, longer battery... 1.4ghz low voltage processors.
18:37:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> i don't care about the hardware - core 2 at 2.4ghz is fine for me -
18:38:01 <ehird> Low-voltage 1.4ghz is stunningly slow.
18:38:20 <ehird> Well, it's probably about as fast or faster than 800mhz arm.
18:38:25 <ehird> After all, it's dual-core.
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what does the X200 has
18:38:34 <ehird> Core 2 Duo 2.4ghz, normal voltage.
18:38:36 <ehird> And I have no idea.
18:38:42 <ehird> All I know is: X201, January 2010.
18:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you know it will have a better display then
18:39:02 <ehird> I just hoped it did.
18:40:09 <ehird> But, as for the processor: I believe it would be annoyingly slow, I don't need the extra thinness, I only want the extra lightness a little, and I don't really need more than 9 hours of battery life, plus, I want to _upgrade_ from my current machine.
18:40:14 <ehird> (since I'll be using it instead of.)
18:40:25 <ehird> (20 inch to 12 inch display, woohoo)
18:40:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems like a downgrade
18:40:53 <ehird> It's a more powerful computer that I can use anywhere.
18:41:02 <ehird> I'll just use a tiling window manager.
18:41:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but a desktop is still nice. When doing a lot of work.
18:42:08 <AnMaster> ehird, where you need a large screen
18:42:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not like old 12" 4:3 laptops that were 1280x768
18:42:15 <ehird> I get 1280x800 pixels
18:42:21 <ehird> which is what most 13.3" inch laptops get
18:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, old 12" were 800x600 right?
18:42:42 <ehird> Yes, well, not that old
18:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember an old performa
18:43:29 <AnMaster> that had like 640x480 as the highest possible mode
18:43:38 <ehird> I've used a 12.1" laptop that was 1280x768; a little lighter than the one I'm getting, I think.
18:43:42 <AnMaster> it used something less by defaulkt
18:43:53 <fizzie> My not-first-but-a-bit-old 12" iBook G4 has 1024x768.
18:44:04 <ehird> something like 1.4kg with the battery in
18:44:11 <ehird> vs 1.6kg for the X200 with the 9-hour battery in
18:44:15 <fizzie> Oh, and the *really* old Toshiba Tecra CDT630 or whatever (Pentium 100) has 1024x768 in a 12" screen.
18:44:41 <ehird> This is why I said yesterday that we need perfect holographic screens.
18:45:04 <ehird> In a field somewhere? The base of it is 12.1" (for the full keyboard) and there is no top. Turn it on and a display appears where it should be in thin air!
18:45:05 <fizzie> (Even though it has only 2 MB of RAM on the graphics card, so only 16-bit color for the native 1024x768 resolution.)
18:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you getting a system with *square* pixels?
18:45:25 <ehird> At a desk about to edit images? Click the display icon in your task bar and select a 30" display with some resolution/
18:45:37 <ehird> It appears, hovering in mid air.
18:45:42 <ehird> (going off the edges of the base).
18:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but I thought that was recording a 3D object in some material using laser thingy
18:47:05 <ehird> No, holograms are the reflective things like on money that you see if you tilt them to the light.
18:47:14 <ehird> OR THEY'RE BEAMS OF 3D PEOPLE LIKE IN STAR WARS
18:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, don't forget Star Trek too
18:47:42 <ehird> Pfft, Star Trek. It's so scientifically inaccurate.
18:47:45 <ehird> No, Star Wars has it right!
18:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, holograms aren't usual there. But they do happen in one of the time traveling episodes iirc
18:48:00 <ehird> They had a big piece of paper and if you tilted it to the sun, the person appears next to you!*
18:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, don't remember that scene at all :P
18:49:15 <ehird> Incidentally, on US election night last year, a bunch of cameras shot a CNN newsanchor and "beamed" it in to their studio. Except the other people in the studio didn't see shit and it was just overlaid on to the final image.
18:49:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram <-- ?
18:49:20 <ehird> Not that they told you that, of course.
18:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: hologram is the usual sci-fi speak term for it
18:49:34 <ehird> despite not meaning that
18:49:35 <AnMaster> "While holography is commonly used to display static 3-D pictures, it is not yet possible to generate arbitrary scenes by a holographic volumetric display."
18:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, it kind of confuses things
18:49:53 <ehird> Yeah, that wouldn't even fit in a laptop and who cares about 3D. :P
18:55:14 <ehird> Anyway, add those variable-size, extremely-bright, no-reflection holographic displays and I'm satisfied with the current crop of laptops. :P
18:56:16 <ehird> Hmm, the ThinkPad I saw at the refurbished laptop shop looks like a T40, circa 2003.
18:56:37 <ehird> The nipple mouse wasn't very fast and its buttons felt more like keys.
18:56:49 <ehird> With some setting tweaking and more shiny-newness it'd be fine, I imagine.
18:56:59 <ehird> AnMaster: are the buttons still more like keys, btw?
18:57:04 <ehird> not for the touchpad, those feel like buttons
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18:57:42 <ehird> The nipple mouse buttons.
18:58:22 <ehird> sounds like it, but no
18:58:31 <ehird> you have to push it hard to get much response, and double clicking is a pain
18:58:42 <ehird> since the pressing/depressing of keys is slower and smoother than a button
18:58:49 <ehird> hmm, can't have been a T40, it didn't have a touchpad
18:59:10 <ehird> ah, probably the X40
18:59:35 <ehird> AnMaster: as in, to fully depress the key
18:59:45 <ehird> think about it, keys have a lot more pushing before they click down than a button
18:59:49 <ehird> and the same for going up
18:59:58 <ehird> so clicking and especially double clicking is a pain
19:00:12 <ehird> plus, there's less of a tactile *click* than a button
19:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for a model M certainly
19:00:27 <AnMaster> but for a laptop keyboard? nah
19:00:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I've used one, you havent
19:00:46 <ehird> admittedly for a minute or two, but no
19:00:50 <ehird> the key-like buttons were the devil
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19:01:49 <ehird> I want a W700ds for the ridiculosity. It has a 17" display, a retractable side 10" display, a "digitizer" tablet, you can give it a RAID array, ...
19:01:55 <ehird> I wonder how much that thing ways; prolly about a ton.
19:01:59 <ehird> Battery life of 30 seconds!
19:02:44 <AnMaster> "a retractable side 10" display"
19:02:57 <AnMaster> and, where is the battery life listed
19:03:03 <ehird> http://www.handingchao.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/lenovo-thinkpad-w700ds.jpg
19:03:14 <ehird> Also, I don't think they do; probably for the best.
19:03:18 <ehird> It only comes with a 9-cell, obviously.
19:03:37 <ehird> And yes, that IS a number pad.
19:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the side 9" one for?
19:03:51 <ehird> And for, you know, extra stuff.
19:03:55 <ehird> Photoshop windows?
19:03:59 <ehird> Like, toolset things.
19:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why not a full 17" one?
19:04:13 <ehird> Sort of wouldn't fit in anything.
19:04:33 <AnMaster> to fit in the three extra 17" displays
19:04:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Why not propose it to them?
19:04:41 <AnMaster> (yes, each side = at the top too
19:04:58 * ehird switches to the US site to get the highest-end options on the W700ds
19:05:03 <ehird> Time to TRICK THIS THING THE FUCK OUT.
19:05:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since that is a notebook and not a laptop
19:05:20 <ehird> I have a new notebook.
19:05:25 <ehird> You know those PCs that went on their side?
19:05:35 <ehird> Weld a monitor, keyboard and mouse to one of them.
19:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean like a desktop?
19:05:52 <ehird> (Keyboard goes on top, monitor behind keyboard.)
19:05:59 <ehird> The side-desktops.
19:06:17 <ehird> Often found in schools
19:06:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well, technically the upright desktops are "towers" iirc
19:06:29 <ehird> Anyway, it would be amazing.
19:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh those in the uni are side desktops, but mounted vertically
19:07:05 <ehird> Like a server rack?
19:07:09 <ehird> s/that line/nothing
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19:07:38 <ehird> Wow, it comes with a Nvidia Quadro.
19:07:49 <AnMaster> ehird, no, more like a tray made out of something similar to the metal bags you sometimes see at the front of bicycles
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19:08:38 <AnMaster> ehird, they aren't rack mounted as such
19:08:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and most had HUGE displays
19:08:59 <Deewiant> I think they're just called racks like the ones on the back
19:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, the ones in the library had at least 26" I think
19:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and in the computer rooms? Pretty much the same
19:09:43 <ehird> http://pastie.org/588787.txt?key=o0r1ib5cmi58ln8yr5qhw All specs maxed out apart from OS/software
19:09:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? it wasn't like, you know,secured to the "rack" by screws or anything
19:10:04 <ehird> That is, 44857 SEK.
19:10:13 <AnMaster> Microsoft Windows XP Professional US English RDVD
19:10:25 <AnMaster> you need 64 bit windows for it
19:10:44 <ehird> It still works without it.
19:10:45 <Deewiant> It's got both Vista and XP there
19:10:46 <ehird> You just can't access the rest.
19:10:48 <AnMaster> Ultranav + Fingerprint Reader + Pantone Color Sensor + WACOM Digitizer
19:10:52 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, the XP is a downgrade CD
19:11:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Which bit is what?
19:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: For automatic calibration.
19:11:29 <ehird> It also has a WACOM Digitizer; it's obviously aimed at serious image work.
19:11:36 <ehird> (= tablet, basically, from what I gather)
19:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, it isn't like a built in scanner to check colour of printed things?
19:12:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't need fucking RAID for image editing. Video editing, sure
19:12:30 <ehird> Dedicated harddrive cache
19:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: there aren't any >320GB laptop drives
19:12:40 <ehird> but only since like a month or two ago
19:12:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can RAID-1 them too
19:12:53 <ehird> serious work, remember
19:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw, I looked at those express card/PC-card slots on my laptop
19:13:14 <AnMaster> they have different connectors
19:13:23 <AnMaster> so one is express card I think
19:13:57 <AnMaster> the top one internally has a non-rectangular shape
19:14:06 <AnMaster> as in, it is more narrow near the inner end
19:14:18 <nooga> in MFC3 header files there are #ifdef _MAC thingys
19:14:32 <nooga> as if they tried to port it to mac OS
19:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, how hot does that run I wonder
19:15:01 <ehird> AnMaster: If you don't want babies, why not completely remove your testicles?
19:15:38 <nooga> ehird: i accidentaly tried
19:16:04 <ehird> nooga has the ability to pass on his genes?
19:17:37 <nooga> i'd like to flood GB with my siblings
19:17:54 <ehird> that's ok, I want to leave this country at the nearest opportunity
19:19:22 <fizzie> Misread that as "flood GB with my syphilis".
19:19:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how to fix the display issue
19:19:39 <AnMaster> insanely high res display in your glasses
19:19:56 <ehird> Myvu Crystal; 640x480 in less than an inch.
19:20:12 <ehird> AnMaster: No, the actual glasses are black and have two of them, I think
19:20:16 <ehird> to cover your whole vision
19:20:20 <ehird> but he took out just one display
19:20:24 <ehird> to use without them
19:20:30 <ehird> AnMaster: What I really want is OLED visors.
19:20:42 <ehird> (OLED because it's super-light, bendable (so you can make the visors curved properly), and can be transparent.)
19:21:03 <ehird> But the colours aren't too good on transparent OLEDs, and they're still at trade-show level.
19:21:09 <AnMaster> ehird, best would be if you could do both "hide real view" display
19:21:10 <ehird> Still, not too long to go.
19:21:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Just cover the whole screen with pixels
19:21:18 <AnMaster> and "overlay on normal view" display
19:21:29 <ehird> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=773108
19:21:35 <ehird> Why just deleted his whole online prescence
19:22:48 <ehird> ...and this is where the complete unknowing we have of anything about him comes in.
19:22:55 <ehird> Wonder if he's suicidal.
19:23:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess there is always waybackmachine
19:23:24 <ehird> (Apparently one of his last twatresults (better than "tweet") was "programming is rather thankless. u see your works become replaced by superior ones in a year. unable to run at all in a few more".)
19:23:33 <ehird> (Although that "u" is rather un-whylike; maybe it totals 140 chars.)
19:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: All his stuff will be around; I'm worried about the guy
19:23:51 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe someone hacked his computer
19:24:09 <ehird> stop pulling at straws, he obviously did this
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19:24:26 <ehird> oh, the tweet was "programming is rather thankless. you see your works become replaced by superior works in a year. unable to run at all in a few more."
19:24:33 <ehird> but someone retweeting made it "u" due to the "RT @_why" taking up space.
19:24:56 <ehird> ("if you program and want longevity, make a game. all else recycles, but people rewrite architectures to keep games alive")
19:25:03 <ehird> (maybe he's now working for EA and they want him to shut up :P)
19:25:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> ("if you program and want longevity, make a game. all else recycles, but people rewrite architectures to keep games alive")
19:25:35 <ehird> zsnes still exists. :)
19:25:59 <ehird> emulators are nice
19:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway he does have a point, games do last longer than most apps
19:26:19 <ehird> he absolutely has a point, I just hope it isn't connected
19:26:52 <AnMaster> ehird, though, I think NOT programming a game ensures even greater longevity!
19:26:56 <AnMaster> and there is a good example of it
19:27:08 <ehird> because 3d realms died
19:27:25 <ehird> the project is officially over
19:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, very well.... they managed it for quite a while
19:27:43 <ehird> I saw the longest, latest preview; it looked great
19:27:54 <ehird> though nobody will buy the project for obvious reasons
19:28:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:28:25 <ehird> "It was reported on May 14, 2009 that Take-Two, holders of the publishing rights of Duke Nukem Forever, filed a breach of contract suit against Apogee Software Ltd (3D Realms) over failing to deliver the aforementioned title."
19:28:37 <ehird> "Fuck you guys. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you guys. Just give us the damn game already."
19:28:38 <AnMaster> "With the termination of the development team by 3D Realms in May 2009, production on Duke Nukem Forever has been halted. Again. Although Take-Two still owns the publishing rights to the game, they do not have an agreement with 3D Realms to provide funding for the game's continued development.[7] A lawsuit has been filed by Take-Two Interactive against 3D Realms over their failure to finish developmen
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19:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so in theory there is still a slim hope
19:56:41 <ehird> Anyway, Mario has lasted longer.
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19:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but the original mario game? Not sure about that
19:59:06 <ehird> People still play and enjoy it
19:59:09 <ehird> especially speedruns
19:59:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not counting Donkey Kong, though that's still quite popular too
19:59:42 <ehird> well, that was Jumpman, technically
19:59:45 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? which one would you consider the original then
19:59:56 <GregorR> In order to be a M-- yeah, no Jumpman.
20:00:02 <ehird> GregorR: donkey kong junior
20:00:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Super Mario Bros is the first Mario platformer, which is what I was counting
20:00:18 <ehird> but Mario Bros probably counts too
20:00:35 <ehird> Only two years difference, anyway
20:00:59 <ehird> AnMaster: but Super Mario World, too
20:01:07 <ehird> 1990/1992 to present, still alive and well
20:01:16 <AnMaster> what was Mario Bros if not a platformer?
20:01:17 <ehird> and people still make rom hacks
20:01:29 <ehird> only one, non-scrolling level
20:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you try to do in that game?
20:01:59 <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die.
20:02:23 <ehird> It's amusing for about seven minutes
20:02:47 <GregorR> <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living.
20:03:01 <ehird> Pacifism: Collect coins until you die.
20:03:06 <ehird> Nihilism: until you die.
20:03:23 <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one
20:03:31 <ehird> Psychoism: Kill enemies until you die.
20:03:54 <ehird> Christianity: Kill enemies until you die, then collect coins.
20:04:06 <GregorR> Judaism: Collect coins until you die, then kill enemies.
20:04:12 <ehird> Buddhism: Die until you die.
20:04:49 <ehird> Beingjesusism: Die, then forty and a few days later, die.
20:05:00 <AnMaster> <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */
20:05:17 <ehird> [20:05] AnMaster: <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */ / k owns, did i mention
20:05:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> [20:05] AnMaster: <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */ / k owns, did i mention %% stop hijacking the line for your own nefarious purposes!
20:05:58 <ehird> Super Mario Bros: Kill enemies, collect coins and pander to the sadistic tendencies of the game designer until you either die or rescue the princess.
20:06:23 <nooga> only to find taht princess is kidnapped again
20:06:27 <ehird> Super Mario Galaxy: GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY
20:06:43 <Slereah> The last Mario I played was Mario VIP
20:07:30 <oklopol> ehird: i like why's ruby booker
20:07:34 <ehird> are there any super mario world hacks that are impossible to play without tool-assisted speedrunning, due to human response times?
20:07:43 <ehird> oklopol: then tell why to start existing again!
20:07:44 <oklopol> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:46 <oklopol> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:54 <ehird> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:55 <ehird> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:11:00 <ehird> OBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:11:02 <ehird> O O O BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:11:17 <ehird> i think my sleep dep hasn't worn off yet, despite like 12 hrs sleep :)
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21:06:56 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from bsmntbombdood: 0.64 second(s)
21:07:32 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, about 0.2 of those are on my side
21:07:56 <bsmntbombdood> 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.127.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=52 time=589 ms
21:08:03 <AnMaster> and my lag is about 0.1 one way
21:08:10 <ehird> AnMaster: 5x slower than here
21:08:28 <ehird> AnMaster: your client doesn't respond to pings, fix that.
21:08:43 <GregorR> * Ping reply from oklopol: 1250661266.18 second(s)
21:08:49 <ehird> Pretty sure that violates the spec.
21:08:56 <ehird> GregorR: you're a special person!
21:09:15 * ehird considers flooding AnMaster with CTCP requestsj
21:09:18 <GregorR> `calc 1250661266.18 seconds in years
21:09:19 <HackEgo> 1 250 661 266.18 seconds = 39.6319105 years
21:09:27 <GregorR> That's some sucky latency.
21:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, most clients can't handle multiple requests CTCP requests per line either
21:09:49 <AnMaster> what was your point now again?
21:09:53 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ehird: 0.78 second(s)
21:09:59 <ehird> AnMaster: so, let me get this straight
21:10:02 * ehird your client blocks this?
21:10:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I do this to avoid CTCP floods
21:10:50 <ehird> Which are more deadly than regular floods, because of magic.
21:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, because they trigger automatic replies yes
21:11:37 <FireFly> Multiple versions on a line could be useful
21:11:41 <AnMaster> assuming multiple clients are CTCP spamming you, your client's sending queue will fill up pretty quickly
21:12:09 <AnMaster> FireFly, see the "spec" for what this actually means
21:12:34 <FireFly> Well, useful for crashing someone, that is
21:12:54 <FireFly> I've read the spec once... was a while, though
21:13:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, except, the number of clients implementing it is less than 0.000001% or so
21:13:23 <FireFly> yeah, since it's potentially dangerous for crashing the user
21:13:33 <FireFly> s/crashing/causing to quit/
21:14:01 <ehird> 0.000001%? So there are at least 100,000,000 clients.
21:14:43 <Asztal> I'm not sure it's entirely useless... ACTION ponders.
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21:15:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I corrected that above
21:15:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:15:38 <AnMaster> Asztal, yet, no one implements it
21:16:14 <Asztal> ehird: it turned out that they didn't actually support it, they just stopped dropping the whole message
21:20:21 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/user/whytheluckystiff and http://vimeo.com/why still exist
21:20:32 <ehird> though they're both dead
21:23:32 <ehird> [[Just noticed that the server (72.232.19.34) is still running. But its refusing connections on HTTP. Only ssh and postgres(!) ports are open.]]
21:24:05 -!- ehird has set topic: RIP chunky bacon 2005—2009 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:25:06 <ehird> GregorR: Why the lucky stiff deleted all his online accounts and sites today.
21:25:23 <ehird> (author of why's (poignant) guide to ruby and a whole bunch of other awesome LSD-tinged stuff)
21:25:34 <ehird> as of yet, nobody knows why in the slightest
21:25:46 <ehird> but nobody really knows anything about the man, so nobody can try and find him
21:27:56 <Deewiant> I'm amused by the level of outcry in such a short time
21:28:15 <ehird> Deewiant: how's that amusing
21:28:32 <ehird> he's an international treasure, of course people care what's up with him
21:30:08 <Deewiant> It reminds me of celebrity news
21:31:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, people caring about other people uncharacteristically disappearing after saying things about what they do being thankless are all gossip-crazy
21:31:46 <ehird> Why don't we all become sociopaths
21:32:04 <oklopol> yeah, if madonna suddently disappeared from the face of the earth, that totally wouldn't make anything but celeb news
21:32:21 <oklopol> (madonna because i just saw madonna's pic, probably)
21:32:29 <oklopol> (he was in the celeb news)
21:33:04 <Deewiant> He's been the secretive type anyway: nobody knows his /name/
21:33:44 <ehird> Deewiant: "He's pseudonymous and doesn't reveal things about his personal life; therefore, to care about the man after him totally disappearing after the aforementioned tweet is gossip"
21:34:04 <ehird> GregorR: it's wrong
21:34:18 <ehird> the source is a wordpress blog that uses hostnames to establish it -
21:34:21 <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/
21:34:29 <ehird> and http://twitter.com/jgillette
21:34:39 <ehird> is the person in the right place, etc, who twat "hmm so who is _why the lucky stiff and why do people suddenly thing he's me?"
21:34:42 <ehird> in conclusion, bull
21:34:54 <Deewiant> ehird: I didn't say caring about the man is gossip
21:35:10 <ehird> So, telling people about it is gossip?
21:35:40 <Deewiant> Hundreds of people's speculations about what happened is gossip
21:36:28 <ehird> I haven't read much speculation.
21:36:36 <ehird> Only the exceedingly obvious guesses.
21:36:57 <GregorR> He died! And his last action was to ... take down all his web sites? :P
21:37:35 <ehird> dead man's switches exist
21:37:40 <GregorR> He joined the French Foreign Legion! And decided that so long as he's out there his web pages shouldn't exist.
21:37:42 <ehird> but i find that unlikely
21:38:05 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm starting to see a pattern
21:38:08 <ehird> He's left the internet to don a fox suit and have sexual intercourse with layers upon layers of chunky bacon!
21:38:17 <ehird> He's taking a break... to become a SHE!
21:38:28 <ehird> (Hahahahaha I hope that last one is true)
21:38:39 <ehird> GregorR: That's why the lucky stiffETTE to YOU.
21:42:51 <AnMaster> ehird, fun thing: even on my laptop, with intel cpu, gcc manages way better than icc at cfunge
21:42:52 <AnMaster> icc generates code to verify CPU is the correct one
21:43:04 <AnMaster> thus, some overhead for short-running programs
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21:45:55 <nooga> my retarded sister thinks she's a model
21:46:11 <nooga> http://www.maxmodels.pl/freyaah.html lol'd hardly
21:47:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:48:32 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you need hellp with?
21:48:55 <ais523> fair enough, p for o is a common typo
21:48:59 <ehird> wow, an actually good AnMaster joke
21:49:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you said that a few times before
21:49:30 <AnMaster> you say it on average one time / three months
21:49:30 <ehird> yes, they're rare occasions
21:49:53 <ehird> I cast lvl 74 objectivity.
21:49:53 <AnMaster> (yes I'm making a parody there)
21:50:03 <ehird> You use your misreading skills to take it as objectivism.
21:50:11 <ehird> You exploit me for your own capitalistic tendencies.
21:50:17 <ehird> The free market collapses.
21:50:29 <ehird> You realise your horrible, horrible mistake and cry yourself to sleep.
21:50:40 <ehird> The next day, you jump off a bridge into a state-provided trampoline.
21:50:44 <ehird> Only then do you realise you made no mistakes.
21:50:47 <AnMaster> they are way way harder to read than amd docs
21:50:48 <nooga> is that because he's identity was revealed?
21:50:52 <ehird> You start a state of free market capitalism.
21:50:54 <ehird> nooga: no, because it wasn't.
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, remember I'm a socialist!
21:51:18 <ehird> nooga is a gullible idiot, discuss
21:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, define that word first ;P
21:51:46 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:51:52 -!- ehird has joined.
21:51:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> nooga is a gullible idiot, discuss
21:51:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, define that word first ;P
21:52:00 <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/
21:52:03 <ehird> http://jonathangillette.net/
21:52:05 <ehird> http://twitter.com/jgillette
21:52:09 <nooga> that's because language barrier you twat
21:52:11 <ehird> not the same person
21:52:20 <ehird> people who know why's real name
21:52:24 <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:52:37 <nooga> then why why is gone?
21:52:49 <ehird> I don't know, I'll ask my crystal ball.
21:52:57 <ehird> Oh wait, it's a Magic 8 one.
21:53:05 <ehird> "Ask again later".
21:53:10 <GregorR> ehird: CRACK IT OPEN AND DRINK THE BLUE FLUID INSIDE
21:53:17 <ehird> GregorR: DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE
21:53:22 <ehird> How do you get ideas so AWESOME
21:53:34 <GregorR> Ask it if you should first :P
21:54:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/ <-- doesn't prove it. More than one people can exist on a single mail server.
21:54:20 <ehird> GregorR: "VERY SUPER EXTRA YES"
21:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: WHY CAN'T YOU READ MORE THAN ONE LINE AT A TIME
21:54:33 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU >_<
21:54:41 <nooga> hi i jonathan gillete and my mission is to shave!
21:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: But fyi, both USERNAMES were "why".
21:54:56 <ehird> NEVERTHELESS, not him.
21:55:01 <ehird> See the lines after which you ignored.
21:55:13 <ehird> nooga: using same computer, duh
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21:55:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> people who know why's real name
21:55:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:55:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Also the ones after →
21:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well, why should they not try to say it isn't
21:56:22 <ehird> AnMaster: The person who sent that email *is not him*.
21:56:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:56:27 <ehird> He does not look like him.
21:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so the email was a fake?
21:56:43 <ehird> Ignoring the fact that you're an idiot,
21:56:51 <ehird> yes, there are multiple people who know why's name
21:56:59 <ehird> and no, jonathan gillette isn't it
21:57:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you trying to confuse things here.
21:57:36 <ehird> How on earth am I doing that?
21:57:40 -!- pingveno has changed nick to Alevar.
21:58:57 <Alevar> Does Alevar or Adevar sound better?
21:59:08 <nooga> ehird: how do you type that arrows?
21:59:35 <ehird> Alevar: who're you, anyway?
22:00:05 <ais523> Alevar: I prefer Alevar, I think
22:00:17 <ais523> nooga: → is altgr-i on this computer
22:00:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:01:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:01:26 <AnMaster> nooga, stop using a US keyboard?
22:01:53 <nooga> i have only alt ;p
22:02:04 <AnMaster> nooga, left alt and right alt?
22:02:53 <fizzie> There's the yui = ←↓→, U = ↑ thing; that's about the only mapped-to-alphabetical special I can remember, in addition to µ.
22:06:54 <fizzie> Yes, but the ĸ in k is the useless ĸ; it's U+0138 "latin small letter kra (Greenlandic, old orthography)" and not the greek small letter kappa, κ, which at least has some use.
22:08:07 <fizzie> Admittedly it makes some sense that the keymap's latin-oriented and doesn't try to fit random Greek (or the Cyrillic ka, к) in there since it wouldn't be a good set anyway.
22:08:17 <fizzie> µ's sort of special since it's in latin-1.
22:09:20 <fizzie> And indeed the µ generated by alt-gr m here is the latin-1 U+00B5 "micro sign" and not the greek letter mu.
22:09:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, I thought those µ where the same?
22:10:08 <fizzie> No, the greek small letter mu is U+03BC. They do *look* the same, though.
22:10:54 <Deewiant> They're the same the same way that a and а are the same
22:10:59 <fizzie> Unlike the greek capital sigma Σ and the n-ary summation operator ∑, which tend to look different.
22:11:08 <Deewiant> Namely, they probably look identical in all fonts
22:11:15 -!- coppro has joined.
22:11:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what were those two a?
22:11:24 <Deewiant> +that you're likely to be using on IRC
22:11:33 <fizzie> I'm guessing latin and cyrillic a's.
22:11:35 <Deewiant> I somehow managed to press enter without completing my thought
22:12:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, sum and sigma do differ
22:13:40 <fizzie> They *were* the latin and cyrillic small letters a; do I win something?
22:15:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:15:24 <Deewiant> There are no other typically-identical-looking alphabets in Unicode that I'm aware of
22:17:20 <fizzie> I don't think there are other exactly a-looking characters, no. There's the fullwidth latin small a, ａ, but that looks a bit different here.
22:17:30 <fizzie> And a lot different in the monospaced IRC font.
22:17:33 <Deewiant> Ironically, it looks about halfsize here
22:18:24 <fizzie> I also don't have the necessary fonts to see the non-BMP lycian/carian/old italic/osmanya/lydian/kharoshthi letters a.
22:19:57 <Deewiant> The carian and old italic look mainly like A, the others have unobvious similarities
22:20:39 <fizzie> Aw. Well, not too surprising.
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23:02:29 <ehird> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10313064-93.html / lol wut
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23:05:04 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
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23:06:34 <GregorR> " wait, what??? did I miss a few years of tech?" // my thoughts exactly
23:07:41 <ehird> GregorR: I wish it actually changed the paper instead of being a lameo screen
23:07:50 <ehird> "The battery lasts for about 65 to 70 minutes, and can be recharged, believe it or not, with a mini USB cord--there's a jack on the back of it."
23:08:12 <ehird> I hope it turns on when it detects you flicked page to it
23:08:35 <pikhq> I hope it's easy to hack.
23:09:27 <ehird> infiltrate distribution center, put porn on all of them
23:09:47 <GregorR> Who needs profit when you've got porn?
23:10:08 <pikhq> I thought the basis of economy was the obtaining of porn?
23:10:16 <pikhq> (and thus, with porn one needs no profit)
23:10:39 <ehird> pikhq: You just revealed the source of the economic meltdown!
23:10:51 <ehird> *dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUUN*
23:11:10 <GregorR> OH GOD YOU JUST MADE THE PHRASE "AYN RAND PORN" JUMP INTO MY HEAD
23:11:19 <ehird> GregorR: They were ANGULAR.
23:11:22 <ehird> And they RAPED each other.
23:11:23 <pikhq> ehird: Ayn Rand's principles would make things worse.
23:11:29 <ehird> And ENJOYED it, ANGULARLY.
23:11:34 <GregorR> MY PENIS JUST CLIMBED INTO MY BODY AND SAYS HE WON'T COME OUT AGAIN
23:11:42 <pikhq> NO MORE COPYRIGHT!!! -> MOAR FREE PORN!
23:11:46 <ehird> You're like rabbits and stuff!
23:11:53 <ehird> DON'T ASK ME HOW I KNOW ABOUT RABBIT PENISES
23:12:00 <ehird> pikhq: Ayn Rand wasn't against copyright per se
23:12:05 <ehird> just every law apart from, like, property
23:12:26 <pikhq> Ayn Rand was *that* sort of crazy.
23:12:32 <ehird> GregorR: also, how do you know your penis' gender?
23:13:06 <ehird> check to see if it has a penis or a vagina
23:13:07 <ais523> wtf has happened to this channel?
23:13:12 <pikhq> ehird: What kind of dick has a vagina?
23:13:19 <ais523> I look away for a few minutes, I look back, and see this...
23:13:23 <ehird> ais523: What, penises?
23:13:40 <ais523> ehird: well, it isn't esolangs
23:13:49 <ehird> ais523: Yes, that's normal.
23:13:54 <ehird> What's ODD about it?
23:14:15 <ais523> because, I'm sure there's a #randomcrap on Freenode, or a channel to that extent
23:14:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:14:32 <ais523> but really, making every channel the same topic is ridiculous
23:14:32 <ehird> Oh, another "why don't we cut 90% of the channel's discussion" tirade.
23:14:34 <ehird> Thank you, ais523.
23:14:42 <ehird> ais523: channels are communities, not topics
23:14:49 <ehird> unless they're really big
23:14:56 <ais523> the topic's what creates the community, though
23:15:12 <ehird> Yes, and esolangs created his community
23:15:17 <ehird> We're very esolang people.
23:15:25 <ehird> We even discuss them when there's anything to discuss about them.
23:18:56 <oerjan> <ais523> but really, making every channel the same topic is ridiculous <-- wait, is every channel about chunky bacon now?
23:19:24 <ehird> oerjan: Logread :P
23:19:27 <pikhq> oerjan just won a web.
23:19:31 <ehird> (which you presumably are.)
23:20:20 <ehird> I just found the best blogspam ever
23:20:27 <ehird> http://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/18/analyst-apple-to-sell-80-million-iphones-in-2012-snag-5-7-of-total-mobile-phone-market/ "Apple to sell 80 million iPhones"
23:20:31 <ehird> http://iphoneusernews.com/?p=1022
23:20:36 <ehird> 896 billion iPhones to be sold in 2012
23:20:46 <ehird> HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN
23:21:35 <oerjan> <oklopol> god i hate your pronouns
23:21:44 <oerjan> well, she has legs like a man, anyway
23:22:04 <ehird> oerjan is an expert on legs
23:22:15 <ehird> HE HAS SEEN MANY LEGS, MOSTLY MEN
23:24:20 <oerjan> ehird: well with the singularity in 2012, obviously things will grow superexponentially until they are obsolete
23:24:47 <ehird> Bit optimistic timing :P
23:25:02 <oerjan> (that yessir did _not_ refer to legs in any way, btw)
23:25:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c0gf/clojure_the_zombiereanimated_corpse_of_lisp/c0c7f1d
23:25:20 <ehird> The Loper OS guy is actually buying a real new Lisp Machine from Symbolics!
23:25:37 <ehird> The 70 pound ye olde machine.
23:25:52 <ehird> 760 MB of ESDI disk! 4 megawords of memory!
23:25:57 <oerjan> "new"? i thought they were all old ones from storage?
23:26:03 <ehird> oerjan: But never used.
23:26:19 <ehird> It'll cost him $675, it seems.
23:26:36 <ehird> Or more, if he's getting a better model than the base.
23:26:47 <oerjan> i guess a lisp machine is a certain kind of geek's equivalent of a cadillac
23:26:50 <ehird> well, looks like he's already bought it, just going to pick it up
23:27:08 <ehird> oerjan: it's more like rickshaws being ubiquitous, and going to pick up a Model T
23:27:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw
23:27:37 <oerjan> i know what a rickshaw is
23:28:04 <ehird> lisp machines are dated technology, but their concepts are much, much better than modern machines
23:29:12 <ehird> were he of the more rich type, he could buy a $3,500 XL1201
23:29:39 <ehird> which would come with 8 megawords (40MB) of RAM, a 9GB SCSI (zomg, technology that's actually still used) disk, and a 19" monochrome display.
23:29:56 <nooga> if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:29:58 <ehird> (among other stuff)
23:30:15 <nooga> yea, there are such things
23:30:38 <ehird> So is your program
23:30:57 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:31:00 <nooga> but it's not lilke JVM
23:31:08 <nooga> it's the other king of VM
23:31:36 <ehird> Squeak is an OS that runs in user-space.
23:31:37 <nooga> not Limbo, like Inferno
23:31:49 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:31:53 <ehird> Squeak is an OS that runs in user-space.
23:32:02 <nooga> is it distributed?
23:32:13 <ehird> It claims to be an implementation of Smalltalk.
23:33:04 <nooga> what i want is a thing that could run simple processes under unix systems and control them throught the network
23:33:23 <ehird> Your idea will fail, nooga, because it assumes the network is infinitely fast.
23:33:26 <nooga> with schleduler and IPC
23:33:39 <ehird> Unless you have a very semantically rich language with a very good implementation, almost all time will be taken doing useless network bounces.
23:33:46 <nooga> ehird: haha, some uses don't need fast IPC
23:34:00 <ehird> nooga, automatic distribution Doesn't Work
23:34:05 <nooga> when things don't need to be realtime and strictly synchronized
23:34:34 <pikhq> Automatic distribution Doesn't Work™ for much the same reason automatic parallelism Doesn't Work™.
23:34:37 <ehird> distributed computing only works when doing it manually, for now
23:34:46 <ehird> your idea is impossible without new, as of yet undiscovered languages
23:34:49 <ehird> on new, as of yet undiscovered compilers
23:34:58 <ehird> protip: you haven't revolutionised CS, so it won't work.
23:34:59 <pikhq> Or sentient computers.
23:35:17 <nooga> so applications for that would be written in C using special library and programmer would have to manage own shit in the right way to get it parallel
23:35:45 <pikhq> ... Why oh why use C if you're going to be on top of a VM?
23:35:57 <pikhq> "Abstract away the machine so I can unabstract it!"
23:36:01 <nooga> because C is portable
23:36:12 <pikhq> ... Your VM is portable.
23:36:31 <nooga> and C programs will run on the most OSes used as execution environments
23:36:34 <pikhq> And C is only portable in comparison to assembly.
23:36:38 <pikhq> It takes *work* to port.
23:36:55 <ehird> God, nooga is such an idiot
23:37:17 <pikhq> And why the crap do you want to write in C on top of a VM? That either defeats the point of a VM or the point of C.
23:37:18 <nooga> Java is more portable than C, allright
23:37:23 <nooga> but it's FUCKING slow
23:37:36 <ehird> nooga: you're an idiot
23:37:38 <ehird> java is super fast
23:37:45 <pikhq> nooga: Actually, Java is not very slow.
23:37:51 <pikhq> It is just very memory-inefficient.
23:38:01 <ehird> pikhq: no, actually.
23:38:07 <pikhq> (not as a rule, but as a property of common Java coding style)
23:38:14 <nooga> check out the Java OS
23:38:16 <ehird> the only flaw the java vm has is startup time
23:38:30 <pikhq> So my complaint is with Java coders, not the JVM.
23:38:41 <ehird> I like how it went
23:38:47 <ehird> <nooga> common java stereotype
23:38:52 <ehird> <pikhq> actually, it's other common java stereotype
23:38:59 <ehird> <nooga> Ohh yeah it's actually that completely different thing.
23:39:13 <nooga> that's not what i mean
23:39:53 <pikhq> nooga: Writing in C on a VM is just an exercise in masochism, unless you're doing something like LLVM.
23:40:13 <nooga> i don't mean a VM in that sense!
23:40:39 <pikhq> So, you mean the sense that is not a virtual machine?
23:40:39 <nooga> i mean something like: I've got 9000 machiunes with linux instgalled, i want to share processes between them
23:40:50 <nooga> and spawn 9000 processes now
23:40:54 <ehird> I want to stab nooga until he can't use IRC. True story.
23:41:14 <nooga> i need a tool that will do ICP between these systems and execute the processes for me
23:41:31 <pikhq> Okay, that's not even *vaguely* a VM. Or automatic distribution.
23:41:31 <ehird> PVM, by the way, is usable for beowulf clusters; little else.
23:41:39 <nooga> because i don't have time to manually spawn 9000 processes on 9000 machines by loogin onto them via ssh
23:41:42 <pikhq> That's single system image clustering.
23:42:01 <pikhq> And it's fucking old.
23:42:10 <ehird> so write a shell script
23:42:16 <nooga> now add few fancy things like load balancing and communication via internet and you're done
23:42:20 <ehird> for i in $(seq 1 9000); do ssh machine$i fuck; done
23:42:26 <ehird> nooga: the internet is SLOW
23:42:26 <pikhq> nooga: That's single system image clustering.
23:42:39 <ehird> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
23:42:40 <nooga> + a terminal that'd let me to enter: run myprogram.c
23:42:42 <ehird> read these and internalise them
23:42:43 <pikhq> It is absurdly old.
23:42:46 <ehird> yours assumes most
23:43:04 <pikhq> And doesn't work well at all unless you've got gigabit Ethernet going.
23:43:06 <ehird> specifically, #1, #2, #3, #7
23:43:17 <nooga> it depends on a tash
23:43:18 <ehird> he wants to do this over the internet.
23:43:27 <pikhq> ehird: That's fucking insane.
23:43:43 <ehird> nooga: stop defending your idea, it's wrong and has been tried before, when people were more stupid
23:43:46 <pikhq> nooga: Computers don't work that way.
23:44:20 <nooga> the renderer works 3 hours and produces 5MB of data i need
23:44:40 <ehird> Distributed renderers are specially written with carefully placed manual networking, AND THEY AREN'T USED OVER THE INTERNET.
23:44:43 <nooga> i'd like to spawn 9000 renderers on sevveral machines
23:44:45 <ehird> They're used over gigabit ethernet or better.
23:44:52 <nooga> and then collect results in ANY order
23:44:57 <ehird> I want a fucking pony.
23:45:04 <ehird> A pony that can fly.
23:45:18 <pikhq> nooga: I'd set up a Condor cluster.
23:45:45 <ehird> Yes. BOINC software is HAND-WRITTEN.
23:45:51 <ehird> And very carefully distributes workloads.
23:46:04 <nooga> i never said anything about automatic parallelism
23:47:00 <nooga> you don't stop blabbering about hand written manually shit
23:47:23 <pikhq> Also, what you want is not a "virtual machine". That shit's a "library".
23:47:38 <pikhq> And it's already been done. Several times.
23:47:58 <nooga> and i didn;t say it's a virtual machine
23:48:02 <pikhq> And no, you could not call this library an operating system.
23:48:06 <ehird> You said "VM VM VM VM VM VM"
23:48:20 <ehird> Unless you meant "very, mmmm...retarded"
23:48:32 <pikhq> It's a daemon and a library.
23:48:38 <nooga> nooga: if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:48:40 <nooga> 00:29 ehird: (among other stuff)
23:48:42 <nooga> 00:30 ehird: nooga: no.
23:48:44 <nooga> 00:30 ehird: call it Squeak
23:48:46 <nooga> 00:30 nooga: yea, there are such things
23:48:50 <nooga> 00:30 nooga: squeak is a VM
23:48:52 <ehird> 23:48] ehird: Unless you meant "very, mmmm...retarded"
23:48:52 <ehird> [23:48] pikhq: It's a daemon and a library.
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: nooga: if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:29 ehird: (among other stuff)
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 ehird: nooga: no.
23:48:55 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 ehird: call it Squeak
23:48:57 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 nooga: yea, there are such things
23:48:59 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 nooga: sure
23:49:01 <pikhq> 17:31 < nooga> kind*
23:49:01 <ehird> Whee, fun flood for the whole family!
23:49:03 <ehird> Let's quite old things!
23:49:04 <nooga> nooga: it's the other kind of VM
23:49:25 <ehird> "It's the other kind of VM: Vomiting Monsters"
23:50:16 <nooga> it's a daemon and a library
23:50:22 <nooga> why is it called PVM ?
23:50:36 <nooga> GUESS WHAT? NOBODY KNOWS!
23:50:56 <ehird> oerjan: btw, "If the person does participate in the wiki, a link to their user page is acceptable, but it should be obvious where the link leads; i.e., the "User:" part of the link should not be hidden" - do we know why this rule exists or why it's beneficial? it just makes the sentence more awkward and harder to read
23:51:11 <ehird> i bet it's just another one of graue's whims, like "categories are sacred and must never be created!"
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23:55:15 <nooga> in that first line i almost described PVM
23:55:35 <nooga> (but it's not a real VM! i know that, remember that)
23:55:47 <nooga> it is just called VM
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00:05:40 <oerjan> ehird: check the talk page, i don't know more than what would be there...
00:05:50 <ehird> doesn't exist iirc
00:06:12 <oerjan> having some discussion on how to categorize things doesn't seem like a bad idea
00:06:49 <oerjan> Esolang talk:Authors certainly exists
00:07:16 <ehird> [on Lisp Machines] "Put everything else on a networked file server - for example using NFS. That's much faster than the local disk."
00:08:43 <oerjan> ehird: incidentally the current consensus was _not_ graue's initial preference
00:09:14 <ehird> I don't really like Graue's administration of the wiki
00:09:45 <oerjan> well currently it's "don't do anything unless someone emails me to tell the wiki's broken" ;D
00:12:10 <oerjan> heck from reading the talk page i'm not sure there _is_ a consensus
00:12:34 <ehird> wow, dmenu is fast
00:13:02 <ehird> it is showing the latest entries, asking for input, in less than a second, when given 57838 lines of items
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00:14:11 <oerjan> oh, it seems all real edits of the Authors page are by graue, indeed
00:14:50 <ehird> maybe we should just ignore his guidelines :)
00:15:22 <oerjan> he did claim to be summarizing the consensus
00:15:55 <oerjan> also, i see nothing wrong with the guidelines
00:16:09 <ehird> that's a technical detail of the wiki
00:16:41 <ais523> it's because links to userpages should be marked
00:16:53 <ais523> it's fine to mark it "ehird" if you link to an encyclopedic page about ehird
00:16:56 <ehird> ais523: "links to userpages should be marked because links to userpages should be marked"
00:17:06 <ehird> Your logic is interestingly circular.
00:17:22 <oerjan> no, your name is Elliott Hird. And if you had enough languages on the wiki we would have created that page.
00:17:22 <ais523> it's to do with things like neutrality
00:17:33 <ais523> people have more leeway in userspace
00:17:51 <ehird> oerjan: my name is not Elliott Hird as far as esolangs go.
00:18:05 <ehird> ais523: the esolang wiki is hardly neutral
00:18:15 <ehird> most pages are written subjectively by the author
00:18:23 <ais523> I know, but in theory other people could edit them, and sometimes do
00:18:28 <ais523> whereas editing other people's userpages is more discouraged
00:18:34 <ehird> so we're basing our policy around theory now?
00:18:58 <oklokok> what's that supposed to mean
00:19:18 <ehird> that we should make policy based on what actually happens
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00:20:18 <oklokok> that doesn't sound like a completely insane thing to want
00:20:49 <ehird> oklokok: whuzzit called
00:20:51 <ehird> also, K is better.
00:21:50 <oklokok> visualization, fractals and J, i took a 5 second glance at ToC, then ordered, i prefer surprise over usefulness
00:22:13 <oerjan> hm this _could_ be a problem. ais523 would be a prime suspect of getting his own article now, but he'd scream loudly if we used his real name in it...
00:22:46 <ehird> oerjan: his name is ais523.
00:23:01 <ehird> oerjan: why does a name have to be Blah Blah? who cares what's on the certificate?
00:23:06 <ehird> your definition of "name" is outdated
00:23:49 <oerjan> the thing is most of the older esolangers from before the wiki are referred to by real name, i think
00:24:05 <ehird> ehird is a real name
00:24:24 <oklokok> tradition is the key to happiness
00:24:43 <ehird> it's rude to call people something other than they consider themselves just because their government thinks so, oerjan.
00:25:48 <ehird> or should I say it like this, Ørjan Johansen?
00:26:07 <oerjan> you are perfectly allowed to.
00:26:27 <ehird> yes, because you only have one name, and consider oerjan an abbreviation for it
00:27:25 <oklokok> i would be terribly annoyed if people called me Ville, not because it's a secret, but because it's not who i am on the internet.
00:27:35 <oklokok> for instance, Ville is finnish
00:28:02 <oklokok> for all intents and purposes i'm nowhereish.
00:28:20 <ehird> oerjan: for consistency, I assume you refer to transgender people who haven't registered their change of gender with the government depending on whether they have a penis or not?
00:28:27 * oerjan has a strong "get off my lawn" feeling now :D
00:28:33 <ehird> after all, it's not their real gender; their government says so
00:28:40 <ehird> they just made it up
00:29:00 <oerjan> BORING DISCUSSION IS BORING
00:29:02 <ehird> that's one convincing counterargument
00:29:14 <ehird> oerjan: no, it's relevant to my position on the wiki policy
00:29:23 <pikhq> My name is Josiah "pikhq" Worcester, as far as the Internet's concerned.
00:30:59 <oerjan> whatever. however "ehird" and "User:ehird" would still be two different articles, one a user page and the other community-edited.
00:31:05 <GregorR> My name is Gregor "Gregor" Richards, as far as the Internet is concerned.
00:31:24 <ehird> oerjan: but user pages and article pages often have the exact same authors, subjectivity level, and non-neutrality
00:31:40 <ehird> so why the hell have such a pedantic policy leading to many little, useless pages that people just click on to their user page from?
00:31:44 <oklokok> GregorR would be just Gregor, but some bastard took that already
00:32:12 <oklokok> probably not true given there's not Gregor
00:32:23 -!- ehird has changed nick to Gregor.
00:32:36 <GregorR> Yeah, somebody has that nick.
00:32:44 <GregorR> I neglected to grab it when they first cleared 'em out.
00:32:49 <Gregor> [00:32] NickServ: Nick gregor is already registered to gregor
00:32:52 -!- Gregor has changed nick to ehird.
00:33:06 <oklokok> so maybe i remembered it and didn't guess it
00:33:32 <oklokok> hard to say, since it's rather obvious as you're such a proud user of your irl name
00:35:12 <oklokok> GregorR: you love your irl name
00:35:37 <oklokok> that's what *it* said, when you asked it to marry you
00:35:37 <ehird> Fun fact: The world population fits in about 33 bits.
00:35:44 <ehird> (July 2008 estimate 6,706,993,152)
00:35:56 <oklokok> by which i mean something like "you should marry it", but one step further
00:35:58 <ehird> So one of your CPU's registers, assuming a sufficiently modern CPU, can hold a unique identifier of any person in the world.
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00:36:47 <ehird> oklokok: 64-bit cpus
00:36:53 <ehird> so roughly two bist out
00:36:53 <pikhq> ehird: No, not "almost two".
00:37:13 <ehird> Prelude> logBase 2 6706993152
00:37:15 <ehird> pikhq: why not almost two
00:37:31 <pikhq> Unless you mean "could pack to IDs into a single register", which is the much more obvious definition than what I was going with.
00:38:01 <ehird> I was wondering if someone would mistake that, heh
00:38:26 <oklokok> wait what did pikhq go with
00:38:51 <ehird> oklokok: takes almost two registers
00:39:03 <ehird> oerjan: uh, it's trivial to order all human beings
00:39:09 <ehird> by birth time in planck times, say
00:39:30 <oerjan> ehird: erm, i'm saying you save a bit if you don't order them
00:39:36 <oklokok> oerjan: except it's still "almost two"
00:39:46 <ehird> you need a 1:1 correspondanc
00:40:35 <oklokok> ehird: basic information theory, you store every pair twice, so you need one less bit if you don't save order
00:40:35 <oerjan> logBase 2 (6706993152*6706993151/2)
00:40:56 <ehird> oklokok: I don't follow
00:41:05 <oklokok> ehird: then learn basic information theory
00:41:20 <ehird> oklokok: just explain why you can omit things from a unique identifier
00:41:24 <ehird> only give the bits that differ?
00:41:29 <ehird> could be all of them
00:41:36 <oerjan> ehird: it takes 1 less bit to store an unordered pair of two persons than it takes to store an ordered pair
00:42:10 <oerjan> because there are twice as many ordered pairs
00:42:15 <oklokok> then, take all pairs that are ascending
00:42:26 <oklokok> that's twice less than the amount of unordered pairs
00:42:28 <ehird> oklokok: that means we can't duplicate
00:42:44 <oerjan> ehird: that only adds a small extra though
00:42:46 <oklokok> ehird: we ignored that, complicates it a bit, but still it's about 64.something
00:43:14 <ehird> well (p1,p1) means that it must at least be as many bits as needed for one person
00:43:19 <ehird> I can't imagine storing all of them in one bit
00:43:28 <ehird> so it must be >=65...
00:43:34 <ehird> maybe I'm stupid :)
00:43:57 <oerjan> _one_ person requires 32.something bits
00:44:02 <oklokok> if we're talking unordered pairs, that is, sets, {p1, p1} isn't one
00:45:15 <ehird> oklokok: yeah, but what if the order doesn't matter but you still want duplication
00:45:20 <ehird> e.g. futuristic marriage!
00:45:40 <oklokok> then allow it, and you'll need slightly more bits than you need for ordered pairs that allow duplication.
00:45:51 <ehird> hmm yeah right of course
00:45:56 <ehird> sorry I misread everfksgljsdfjg blah I'ms tupid
00:46:24 <oklokok> don't worry, you wouldn't believe how garbledly i read your message just now.
00:46:33 <oerjan> oklokok: slightly _fewer_ bits
00:48:37 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
00:49:10 <HackEgo> /bin/grep \ /bin/gunzip \ /bin/gzexe \ /bin/gzip
00:52:18 <oklokok> oerjan: your mom had fewer bits before she duplicated. is my response.
00:53:05 <ehird> penis-growing mothers.
00:53:41 <oklokok> what, the only chapter whose content was mostly new to me isn't in the exam
00:54:22 <MizardX> Go and complain, "This is too easy!"
00:55:33 <oklokok> MizardX: i usually slip those complaints into my exam answers
00:56:03 <oklokok> that's my exam style, annoying piece of shit whose always right
00:56:12 <oklokok> well, probably neither, but anyway
00:56:20 <ehird> "(toöluvku haanen!)"
00:56:30 <ehird> what does it mean in finnish xD
00:56:53 <oklokok> you can't have or if you have u
00:57:40 <oklokok> a and can't coexist either
00:58:47 <ehird> Tuläk Universet Haanen
00:59:03 <ehird> hmm that ä should be just a
00:59:10 <oklokok> ehird: you can't end a word with k
00:59:15 <nooga> hyvää paivää i thought that means good day
00:59:21 <ehird> Tulaä Universet Haanen
00:59:50 <ehird> I think Universet is very finnish
00:59:50 <oklokok> also to me, "hyv piv" means "what the fuck" or something
00:59:54 <oklokok> i wouldn't use it as a greeting
01:00:24 <ehird> oklokok: you should
01:00:25 <oklokok> ehird: tula has a, universet sounds somewhat finnish
01:00:32 <ehird> <oklokok> ehird: what the fuck! \o/
01:00:43 <oklokok> it's only what the fuck if you use it right
01:01:03 <ehird> oklokok: Tulaä Universet Haanen
01:01:08 <ehird> I just repeated it
01:01:11 <ehird> ää just looks weird
01:01:27 <nooga> try to synthesize some polish
01:01:29 <oerjan> ehird: universet is actually norwegian
01:01:40 <ehird> nooga: voljka protczneiw
01:02:04 <ehird> oerjan: means university or universe?
01:02:07 <ehird> I'm trying to get university
01:02:23 <ehird> nooga: rusvert kamput
01:02:24 <oklokok> university is universitt or something in swedish
01:02:49 <ehird> nooga: for sweden, herj tumasen
01:02:50 <MizardX> university is "universitet" in swedish
01:03:04 <ehird> MizardX: how sweden is "herj tumasen"
01:03:19 <ehird> nooga: how polish is "voljka protoczniew"
01:03:23 <oerjan> tumasen sounds finnish ;D
01:03:24 <oklokok> MizardX: don't you use "t" for similar purposes as well though?
01:03:31 <oklokok> well, i mean for some purposes
01:03:35 <nooga> oerjan: norwegian is easy, you create words from english ones: centrum -> sentrum, electric -> elektrisk, universe -> universet
01:03:45 <oklokok> oerjan: "tumasen" is finnish
01:04:00 <oerjan> herj would be norwegian for pillage or so
01:04:06 <nooga> ehird: uhm, there lj is very not polish
01:04:35 <nooga> and protoczniew could be a russian surname
01:04:45 <ehird> i was going for like, zbigniew
01:04:58 <nooga> zbigniew is polish name
01:05:17 <oklokok> oerjan: "tumasen" is the genetive of the diminutive of nucleus
01:05:18 <nooga> hm, zbigniew is always an old guy without teeth
01:05:30 <ehird> nooga: how about gasperowicz
01:05:39 <nooga> oh that's actually my surname
01:05:45 <ehird> yeah, I was fucking with you.
01:06:22 <oklokok> MizardX: i'm sorry about never having acquired active knowledge of your language
01:06:30 <oerjan> nooga: those words are in the style of borrowing from latin/french, not english
01:06:46 <oerjan> english doesn't fit so nicely :(
01:07:09 <nooga> cholerni zjadacze majonezu
01:07:14 <oklokok> ehird: "i" doesn't sound very f
01:07:20 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=tääimen&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 / or, russian xD
01:08:05 <oklokok> means at least "of tmis", but "tmi" means nothing
01:08:38 <oerjan> but but it's positively tääming with meaning
01:08:55 <oklokok> could also be a form of the verb "tmi", meaning something like "by tmi'ing", but the verb means nothing
01:09:05 <ehird> oklokok: hahaha awesome
01:09:17 <ehird> all you finns in here should call themselves täämien
01:09:22 <ehird> "Oh yeah, I'm from täämis."
01:09:58 <ehird> "[How should I do it?]" "Täämien [it!]"
01:11:05 <ehird> okokokokokokotäämienokokokokoko
01:11:22 <ehird> wow it fits in so beautifully with the other letters
01:11:25 <oklokok> (this land of tmis tmied by pistils)
01:12:02 <oklokok> finnish is a pretty manglible language compared to english. i like that about it
01:12:15 <oerjan> okotäämien täämienoko okotä täämiö
01:12:36 <ehird> "In my small village of täämis we have a... sacred tradition, täämien[ing]; and I think before we get married, we should prove that we truly love each other by performing it."
01:12:43 <ehird> "Sure, what do we have to do?"
01:13:02 <ehird> "[explanation of bukkake]"
01:13:23 <ehird> It's oh so useful to be from täämis!
01:13:28 <oerjan> manglifyingly mangling
01:13:28 <ehird> In unrealistic fictional situations.
01:13:44 <oklokok> ehird: actually "sacred tradition, tmiminen"
01:14:10 <oklokok> oh you meant "tmien" as a verb? finnish verbs usually end in an "a" or an ""
01:14:22 <ehird> you said it could be a verb
01:14:28 <ehird> [01:08] oklokok: could also be a form of the verb "täämiä", meaning something like "by täämi'ing", but the verb means nothing incompatible encoding
01:14:35 <oklokok> ehird: do you like "omimia"?
01:14:52 <ehird> basically i think it should be used as a verb that means anything
01:15:05 <ehird> and the justification for that is that it's to do with the village of täämien
01:15:10 <ehird> no matter what the meaning is
01:15:19 <ehird> (where you grew up, naturally)
01:15:46 <oklokok> i think we've sidetracked a slight bit
01:15:54 <ehird> my proposal is excellent.
01:16:06 <oklokok> i mean from the original heated discussion
01:16:32 <ehird> penis growing mothers, then you complaining about university exams being easy
01:16:37 <ehird> then I faked some finnish and this
01:16:52 <ehird> before that, 2*person bits
01:17:53 <oklokok> i'm not sure any of those qualifies as a topic
01:18:25 <ehird> before that wiki polciy
01:19:26 <oklokok> that sounds official enough
01:19:41 <oklokok> oerjan: GET BACK HERE AND START FIGHTING
01:20:16 * oerjan swats oklokok -----###
01:20:24 * ais523 lobs a punch at (343, 89)
01:20:45 <oerjan> poor tuple, what did it do to you?
01:20:55 <ais523> no, it's the coordinates that I'm aiming the punch at
01:21:26 <oerjan> somewhere close to the north pole, i take
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01:48:23 <ehird> i want a bigger room
01:48:32 <ehird> hmm come to think of it i just want a one-room apartment
01:48:41 <ehird> mainly because it's hard to get stuff, because I can't put it anywhere
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02:06:37 <ehird> yes, but it didn't work.
02:19:16 <oklokok> one of the fox jokes is a suicide note, i guess the mystery is solved
02:21:24 <oklokok> f1:"have you noticed this book is basically written by a lunatic" f2:"yup" f1:"seriously, he's way too hyperactive, if he keeps up this frantic pace, he's gonna burn out real quick"
02:21:41 <ehird> he said something like before 30
02:21:47 <ehird> although i guess any age applies to that :P
02:21:49 <oklokok> f2:"burn out? he's gonna shoot himself in the head by the time he's 30"
02:22:01 <oklokok> alt says "out in the pickup truck" :P
02:22:08 <ehird> he doesn't look 30
02:22:26 <oklokok> so clearly he agrees with the fox
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02:43:59 <ehird> oklokok: http://i32.tinypic.com/5nq179.jpg
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02:44:45 <ehird> from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c5on/where_is_why/c0c7ss1
02:44:50 <ehird> could all be false
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03:04:34 <ais523> wow, codegolf has posted a new challlenge
03:15:33 <ehird> moon looks blue to me
03:17:11 <oerjan> well i hear it tends to so, once in a *hit by falling anvil*
03:19:04 <oerjan> then why did *i* get hit by an anvil? it's not fair i tell you!
03:20:22 <oerjan> also, who the heck got the idea of adding omega-3 to _bread_? this slight fishy taste...
03:23:50 <oerjan> especially as the mackerel in tomato i've got on one of the slices is nowadays advertised in norway approximately as follows: "Question: how many slices with [our traditional mackerel in tomato sauce] do you need to eat in order to get your recommended daily dose of omega 3? Answer: 1"
03:27:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:27:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:28:24 <oerjan> (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing)
03:28:40 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:29:51 <oerjan> and thus, alas, #esoteric starts getting decimated by the swine flu
03:31:16 <oerjan> we will mourn you. even AnMaster, or else i'll swat him.
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03:36:30 * oerjan hopes ehird just went to bed, and didn't have a stroke or something
03:36:41 <ehird> i would have disconnected
03:36:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:37:42 <oerjan> right, you don't use a bouncer nowadays?
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03:38:11 <pikhq> My computer is just on in perpetuity.
03:39:28 <ehird> i might when i switch to a laptop so i don't miss things
03:40:23 <oerjan> also, if you usually drink coffee, forgetting it may give a headache. just in case.
03:40:31 <ehird> i don't drink coffee
03:41:39 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether caffeine relieves headache in itself, or if it's just the removal of withdrawal symptoms
03:41:43 <ehird> i'm addicted to pepsi
03:41:57 <oerjan> ah, then that might still apply
03:42:03 <ehird> but i think i'm just tired
03:42:29 <ehird> i drink like... double digit glasses of pepsi a day, i should really cut down :)
03:42:35 <ehird> (note: low double digits.)
03:42:51 <pikhq> Specifically, caffeine can be a good treatment for migraine headaches. It can also cause migraine headaches from withdrawal or excessive dose.
03:43:19 <ehird> hot chocolate made me feel alive after sleepdep yesterday; maybe I should drink it when it starts getting late
04:11:56 <oklokok> oerjan: (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing) <<< i bought those
04:12:21 <oklokok> i drink 2l coke a day on average
04:12:49 <oklokok> and half a liter of $energy_drink
04:14:33 <pikhq> ... Okay, *Americans* get portrayed as being crazy about their soda. You guys... Are freaking insane.
04:15:12 <GregorR> oklokok: Isn't that awfully expensive in $NOT_USA?
04:15:24 <pikhq> (though that portrayal makes some sense -- you can readily buy a ~1L *cup* of soda here...)
04:15:35 <oklokok> i usually drink the 2l in about 4-5 hours, would probably drink two of those if i had an infinite supply
04:15:51 <GregorR> oklokok: Gimme a price! :P
04:15:57 <ehird> well how much is a regular tall glass
04:16:33 <HackEgo> 0.60 Euros = 0.85446 U.S. dollars
04:16:50 <GregorR> So about $1.70 for a 2L. A bit less for a 2L here, but not WILDLY less.
04:17:04 <ehird> does anyone know what regular glasses are called
04:17:13 <oklokok> yeah but that's the insanely cheap coke
04:17:23 <oklokok> most cokes are 2-3 times more expensive
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04:18:39 <oklokok> this one is called "freeway cola"
04:18:57 <oklokok> i don't give a shit about brands
04:18:58 <ehird> in my opinion pepsi is the best
04:19:15 <pikhq> GregorR: I get 2L for ~$1.
04:19:15 <ehird> it has almost all the cold blammo of coke and tastes way better.
04:19:17 <oklokok> pepsi is a completely different drink
04:19:30 <oklokok> at least according to my tastebuddies.
04:19:47 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah, that was my estimate.
04:19:58 <GregorR> pikhq: But everywhere I've been in Europe, a 2L of coke would be like 4USD, so $1.85 is pretty good :P
04:20:12 <pikhq> GregorR: Fair enough.
04:20:20 <ehird> oklokok: it may be
04:20:23 <ehird> if so, it's superior
04:21:25 <pikhq> Also, we have Mountain Dew.
04:21:33 <pikhq> Which is delicious and caffeinated.
04:21:44 <ehird> isn't it sort of like... citrus?
04:21:57 <oerjan> they tried to market mountain dew here a year or two ago
04:22:00 <ehird> i get the feeling it's an...immature drink
04:22:07 <oerjan> i don't think it took off
04:22:10 <ehird> like, cola, it's mature, one unifying flavour
04:22:12 <GregorR> Yeah, but my favorite soda I have to import, so it's like $1.85 for a 20oz bottle :P
04:22:17 <oklokok> do you mean you have (mountain dew), which is caffeinated, or that you have (mountain dew, which is caffeinated)
04:22:18 <HackEgo> 20 US fluid ounces = 0.591470591 liter
04:22:19 <ehird> mountain dew seems to be like an explosion of KAZAM flavours
04:22:22 <ehird> which is jutst lame
04:22:22 <oklokok> because we have mountain dew
04:22:33 <pikhq> oklokok: (Mountain Dew), which is caffeinated.
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04:22:56 <pikhq> It's a favored drink of many a programmer.
04:23:09 <GregorR> Mountain Dew is disgusting.
04:23:14 <ehird> ANSWER MY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT
04:23:20 <pikhq> ehird: It is *sorta* citrusy.
04:23:30 <ehird> pikhq: but is it mature and homely like cola
04:23:35 <oklokok> GregorR: your opinions on this stuff are kinda useless
04:23:38 <ehird> i mean i see cola as being on par with coffee and wine.
04:23:43 <ehird> it's very mature and distinct.
04:24:03 <ehird> dr pepper moreso, though it doesn't taste better than cola.
04:24:04 <pikhq> ehird: ... You sound like you've never had Dr. Pepper.
04:24:13 <oklokok> by which i mean you could be replaced by a regexp, since you only like two drinks
04:24:43 <oklokok> GregorR: i thought you only like water and soda
04:25:32 <ehird> pikhq: anyway dr pepper is very sophisticated but cola tastes better and is still sophisticated
04:25:42 <ehird> pikhq: maybe i should have the non-hfcs dublin dr pepper?
04:26:09 <oklokok> GregorR: well stop liking it, you used to be special, now you're just really picky.
04:26:26 <GregorR> oklokok: I'm only picky in drinks :P
04:26:39 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
04:26:46 <oklopol> right, sorry, i was being a dick
04:27:08 <ehird> i want to invent my own soft drink
04:27:17 <ehird> with lots of cinnamon
04:27:32 <pikhq> ehird: You need non-HFCS Dr. Pepper.
04:27:40 <ehird> pikhq: how about you buy it for me
04:27:57 <pikhq> Sorry, but if I drive down to Dublin, I'm filling up the car and ITS ALL FOR ME.
04:28:05 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
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04:28:12 <ehird> let's all drive there together
04:28:34 <pikhq> (I only have had the non-HFCS Dr. Pepper when it was shipped nation-wide for a couple of months...)
04:28:57 <GregorR> pikhq: They have it at Greyhouse, a coffee shop near Purdue :)
04:29:15 <GregorR> Along with delicious Puma Kola, made from real Puma blood.
04:29:21 <ehird> Let's all go to an Amsterdam coffee shop! And then an Amsterdam whorehouse.
04:29:25 <pikhq> GregorR: You make a compelling case for me to move.
04:30:35 <GregorR> I'll switch back to being a TA if you transfer and get into my class X-P
04:31:02 <ehird> hmm perfect soda: caffeine, water, sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla
04:31:41 <GregorR> Soooo, ginger ale mixed with cream soda :P
04:31:50 <oklopol> ehird: if it has bubbles and tastes a lot, i'll drink it.
04:31:53 <ehird> GregorR: ginger ale is like real ginger?
04:32:00 <GregorR> ehird: When it's made right.
04:32:05 <GregorR> ehird: When it's made right it IS real ginger.
04:32:16 <ehird> the good thing about my recipe is that it has no citrus
04:32:23 <GregorR> John Kemper's ginger ale will clear your sinuses if you smell it.
04:32:30 <ehird> hmm let's do brown sugar, not white sugar
04:32:36 <ehird> for extra yummy goodness
04:32:55 <ehird> molasses is liquid
04:32:57 <oklopol> what's good about not having citrus
04:33:08 <ehird> oklopol: tangy and unsophisticated
04:33:11 <ehird> not as smooth to drink
04:33:20 <GregorR> ehird: So is semen, but putting that in soda would only appeal to a very niche market.
04:33:58 <oklopol> i remember drinking half a liter of pure lemon juice in germany
04:33:58 <ehird> i mean the fluffy brown sugar
04:34:07 <oklopol> thinking it was some kinda soda
04:34:40 <oklopol> more like... what's the term
04:34:51 <ehird> GregorR: anyway doesn't my recipe sound yummu?
04:35:02 <ehird> caffeine, water, brown sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla
04:35:04 <GregorR> ehird: If you get rid of the brown sugar and lavendar.
04:35:13 <ehird> GregorR: why lavender, it's smooth and nice
04:36:00 <ehird> GregorR: anyway have you ever had fluffy brown sugar, just tasted it
04:36:24 <GregorR> Yes, I have, but I don't feel it would go with the rest of that.
04:36:39 <oklopol> anything goes with anything
04:36:56 <GregorR> Let's add Brussel's Sprouts.
04:37:12 <ehird> GregorR: why wouldn't it
04:37:26 <ehird> it's smooth, it's sweet, it's not tangy
04:37:30 <GregorR> I am not capable of describing food combinations.
04:37:33 <oklopol> i'd love a brussel's sprouts soda
04:37:44 <GregorR> oklopol: Jones makes one around thanksgiving.
04:37:53 <GregorR> oklopol: In the USA and Canada.
04:37:58 <GregorR> oklopol: You could probably get some online.
04:38:15 <GregorR> oklopol: It's enough to make you gag before you can even swallow any of it. It's quite vile.
04:38:19 <ehird> GregorR: well, do you think mine is tangy or spicy w/o the brown sugar? it has no carbonation in it, for instance
04:38:42 <GregorR> ehird: Wait, wtf, it's not carbonated? I thought we were talking about soda!
04:38:49 <ehird> GregorR: DELICIOUS soda.
04:38:58 <GregorR> ehird: SODA IS DEFINED BY CARBONATION YOU FUCKFACE
04:39:02 <ehird> Who says it has to be carbonated? Flat soda is awesome.
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04:39:32 <GregorR> oklopol: They make it as a joke, in case you couldn't guess. They also have turkey and gravy soda.
04:39:32 <oklopol> without bubbles, tastes need to be even more interesting to be entertaining.
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04:40:12 <ehird> caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, (maybe soda)
04:40:17 <ehird> it's (maybe) delicious
04:40:31 <ehird> it'll be safe, right? :P
04:40:51 <GregorR> I honestly think the only unsafe thing would be handling caffeine personally.
04:41:11 <ehird> http://www.colawp.com/colas/400/cola467_recipe.html opencola
04:41:17 <ehird> it has stuff about the caffeine
04:41:32 <ehird> GregorR: warning: cory doctorow involved
04:41:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink)
04:41:41 <GregorR> Sweet, /me dons his red cape and goggles
04:41:45 <ehird> opencola was a company unrelated to cola, it was promotional :)
04:42:06 <pikhq> ehird: Good promotion, though. :)
04:42:21 <ehird> it enveloped the company /shrug
04:43:10 <ehird> my mother was an "aromatherapist" in like the 80s and still uses oils a shit ton, so she'll prolly have everything i need
04:43:34 <ehird> (aromatherapy being basically entirely bullshit)
04:44:00 <ehird> they cost a shitload
04:44:41 <pikhq> Yes, and the recipe uses mililiters.
04:44:53 <ehird> the bottles are so tiny
04:45:25 <ehird> http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture98/islandspa/product4.jpg one of these bottles costs about £10
04:45:34 <GregorR> Neroli is a very expensive item, be prepared (US$48.52 for 5.00 ml) D-8
04:46:00 <ais523> opencola's been around for years
04:46:09 <ehird> my recipe is uber-cheap! No neroli!
04:46:12 <pikhq> Man, that recipe. You need eyedroppers.
04:46:22 <ehird> i'm accepting preorders now ;)
04:46:43 <ehird> it will be called Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption
04:46:51 <oklopol> i'll pay that 2x pounds you owe me
04:48:12 <oklopol> or, alternatively, 5 euros & delivery, and you still owe me the 2X pounds
04:48:13 -!- augur has joined.
04:48:19 <ehird> hehe, I'm totally gonna make this
04:48:47 <ehird> not like I'll make a profit.
04:49:12 <ehird> since it will go in a real glass bottle!
04:49:30 <oklopol> do you make the bottle around the soda?
04:49:38 <ehird> oklopol: wanna up the price for the klein bottle?
04:49:39 <ais523> ehird: how come you owe oxlopol 2x pounds?
04:49:45 <ehird> ais523: counter game
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04:49:51 <ehird> he got to #1 from far down insanely quickly
04:49:55 <ehird> ais523: the pointless website?
04:50:00 <oklopol> ehird: depends on the cost of klein bottles
04:50:17 <ais523> and what's the value of x?
04:50:28 <ehird> ais523: it's 20-something
04:50:36 <oklopol> i never remember what people owe me or what i owe them
04:50:53 <oklopol> for instance this one dude owes me something between 200 and 400
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04:51:23 <ehird> $56 for http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm
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04:52:11 <pikhq> ehird: You are horribly unrealistic.
04:52:13 <ehird> oklopol: if you buy the bottle you can have the drink free :P
04:52:16 <oklopol> ehird: that's just the 3d projection of one
04:52:23 <pikhq> Don't you know, you can't *put* anything in a Klein bottle?
04:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: you can in these!
04:52:48 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. It's a zero-volume manifold.
04:53:02 <ehird> ...klein bottles = time cube
04:53:14 <pikhq> By a quirk of gravity, it manages to not leak.
04:53:21 <ais523> you can put something in a klein bottle the same way you can put something in a bowl
04:53:33 <ais523> you don't put things /inside/ the bowl, rather, you balance them on top
04:53:56 <ehird> http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm here, to drink, it goes through the handle
04:54:36 <ehird> Slereah: nice use of $80
04:54:42 <Slereah> They're expensive and you can't really use them
04:54:48 <Slereah> They're very hard to clean
04:55:00 <Slereah> It's easy for them to develop mold and shit
04:55:01 <ehird> who needs cleaning
04:55:08 <pikhq> And they're a zero-volume manifold!
04:55:49 <ehird> oklopol: anyway swig ingest drink (for human consumption) in regular bottle glass will be like, oh, 10 euros
04:55:53 <ehird> `calc 10 euros in £
04:56:55 <ehird> it's a specialist item!
04:57:02 <ehird> my cost-per-item is high!
04:57:24 <ehird> ok maybe like 5 euros
04:57:27 <ehird> `calc 5 euros in £
04:58:12 <ehird> includes, like, stuff
04:58:55 <ehird> includes sticker label that makes it look like what'd happen if you applied the chinese ripoff industry to real beer
04:59:00 <oklopol> less money talk, more sending me soda
04:59:12 <ehird> oklopol: i'll make it tomorrow and fridge it
05:00:08 <ehird> oklopol: then get enough shit to make about 5 bottles
05:00:29 <ehird> so hopefully in a few weeks, mail me some money and an address and it's yours :P
05:00:37 <ehird> i'll send you your owed along with it
05:01:11 <oklopol> that sounds really complicated, can't you just send it, and i'll pay you next time i see you
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05:02:00 <ehird> oklopol: i say "yo <address>", you put money in envelope with address on and send in post
05:02:09 <ehird> later, you get a drink and money in the mail.
05:02:33 <ais523> hmm... does oklopol ever see ehird in RL?
05:02:46 <ehird> no, although rectifying that would be fun
05:02:46 <oklopol> ehird: alright, which payment do you prefer?
05:03:06 <ehird> oklopol: well i won't tell you for a few weeks, so
05:03:07 <oklopol> ais523: last time i was in GB i was 5
05:03:10 <ehird> depends on how tasty it is
05:04:52 <oklopol> if it's tasty, i pay with the debt, if it sucks, i pay 5?
05:05:02 <ehird> something like that
05:05:51 <ehird> oklopol: if it makes me spit it out, you pay even mor since you like that shit
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05:06:14 <oerjan> Slereah: now really, klein bottles are _easy_ to clean, since you only need to clean the outside
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05:08:18 <ehird> oklopol: if you throw in a plane ticket you get an interview with me about it in person.
05:08:21 <ehird> also another bottle.
05:08:58 <GregorR> Lessons learned from Bear Grylls: If you're in the wild and you have to swim, always swim nude.
05:09:26 <GregorR> I have no doubt that he would, given the opportunity.
05:10:08 <oklopol> i've also learned to squeeze water out of elephant shit
05:10:33 <ehird> oklopol: will you be throwing in the plane ticket? :P
05:10:37 <pikhq> http://www.kleinbottle.com/Tantalus.html Also awesome.
05:11:04 <ehird> "suddenly the water drains out through the siphon. (In Canada, Australia, and Britain, the water drains through a syphon)."
05:11:08 <ehird> oklopol: the plane ticket?
05:11:22 <ehird> no idea, like, 80 euros??
05:12:13 <oklopol> i've been given a minimum estimate of 20e
05:12:57 <ehird> oklopol: so like 40 eur realistitcally
05:13:51 <ehird> i'm teaching my children lojban along with english
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05:13:59 <ehird> they will be awesome warriors of logic.
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05:15:32 <ehird> anyone else want to preorder swig ingest drink (for human consumption) liquid? augur?
05:15:57 <augur> ehird, you'll have to adopt.
05:16:12 <augur> or get some woman who have you and your partner's baby
05:16:24 <augur> unless they figure out how to let guys get pregnant by the time you're an adult
05:16:54 <augur> well, youre either gay or a girl
05:17:02 <augur> take your pick fag/woman
05:17:21 <augur> gregorr: i do my best
05:17:33 <ehird> augur: anyway it's caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, carbonation.
05:17:50 <oklopol> we heard! congrats out loud in case the silent ones weren't enough
05:17:51 <augur> unless thats a list of ingredients in order of amount
05:17:56 <augur> it sounds delicious
05:17:56 <ehird> augur: swig ingest drink. for human consumption.
05:18:22 <pikhq> Shame it's not Klein.
05:18:33 <ehird> pikhq: add cost of bottle and it is
05:18:53 <GregorR> Apparently you can make carbonated water with just a few 2L bottles, tubing, and yeast.
05:18:57 <pikhq> Klein bottles are, of course, expensive, due to the impracticality of a mold.
05:19:06 <pikhq> GregorR: And sugar.
05:19:13 <GregorR> Well yeah, but I'm considering that free.
05:19:30 <augur> gregor: thats not carbonated water
05:19:50 <ehird> augur: will you buy it, eh?
05:19:53 <GregorR> augur: The tubing is to get the CO2 out of the yeast-sugar-water and into the plain water.
05:20:08 <augur> it sounds cheaper to buy carbonated water.
05:20:12 <pikhq> GregorR: Out of the brewery, actually. :P
05:20:19 <pikhq> augur: Yeast is cheap. Sugar, more-so.
05:20:21 <ehird> augur: like 10 eur or less + shipping!
05:20:34 <GregorR> Yeah, I can't imagine anything being cheaper than the above strategy ...
05:20:37 <ehird> sounds about right
05:20:48 <pikhq> And when you're done, you also have a solution of ethanol.
05:20:51 <ehird> (high unit price :p)
05:21:25 <GregorR> Also, it's extraordinarily difficult to by plain carbonated water without salt in the US. (And not even easy to buy it with salt)
05:21:47 <GregorR> Except for a few places e.g. New Yawk
05:21:50 <ehird> just buy literal soda
05:21:55 <ehird> and put it in water
05:22:12 <ehird> oklopol: btw my soda won't be caramel colour
05:22:14 <ehird> rather, transparent
05:22:20 <ehird> pretend it's water! vodka!
05:23:16 <oklopol> i want alcohol free vodka :\
05:23:55 <GregorR> oklopol: Here's how to make it:
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05:24:35 <augur_> sounds like youre making irish booze
05:24:55 <ehird> augur_: will you order it!
05:25:24 <ehird> why not, oklopol will
05:25:30 <ehird> don't you want to be him.
05:25:34 <augur_> plus, i thought you said =C=10?
05:25:36 <pikhq> augur_: Irish booze? If they didn't have beer, they would invent vodka, yeah.
05:25:51 <augur_> no i dont want to BE oklopol
05:25:58 <augur_> i want to be ON oklopol('s cock)
05:26:00 <oklopol> GregorR: i don't believe you
05:26:14 <ehird> augur_: $ costs more than euro, duh
05:26:22 <pikhq> augur_: How very homosexual of you.
05:26:37 <ehird> augur_: how about $5+shipping
05:26:39 <ehird> for an whole bottle!
05:26:42 <ehird> comes with autograph!
05:26:51 <augur_> thats an even better deal, surely
05:27:16 <ehird> i can't make a profit anyway since i'm not buying the ingredients in bulk
05:27:18 <GregorR> Oh Bear Grylls, covered in pig blood again?
05:27:54 <ehird> "I remember talking to this guy at a 2600 meet once and being turned on by the fact that he was running OpenBSD." —reddit
05:28:06 <augur_> did adrian lamo say that
05:28:14 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9bwy5/im_the_daughter_of_lesbians_ama/c0c73w1
05:28:39 <augur_> "Kif: "Captain, may I have a word with you?" Zapp: "No." Kif: "It's an emergency, sir." Zapp: "Come back when it's a catastrophe!""
05:28:46 <GregorR> Dude, Bear Grylls is eating better than me.
05:28:46 <augur_> <--- adrian lamo's autoreply
05:29:04 <ehird> augur is adrian lamo's autoreply :P
05:29:14 <augur_> god dont even say that
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05:29:30 <augur_> all i get from him is "come to defcon! come have sex with me! come to california!"
05:29:59 <augur_> defcon wouldve been fun
05:30:01 <GregorR> So get him to pay for your ticket!
05:30:05 <GregorR> Then you're just literally a manwhore.
05:30:12 <ehird> augur_: junkliquid
05:30:14 <augur_> do you even know who adrian lamo is?
05:30:25 <ehird> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Lamo)
05:30:32 <augur_> that should surely clear things up with the money issue
05:30:43 <Slereah> Run ehird, he wants your boy butt
05:30:45 <ehird> augur_: was this just an excuse for you to mention knowing a celebrity
05:31:17 <augur_> i mean, hes not really a celebrity
05:31:32 <augur_> unless you watched TSS religiously
05:32:46 <pikhq> "ending a three-year period during which the U.S. District Court's ruling prevented him from exercising certain freedoms, including the ability to employ any privacy protection software, travel outside certain established boundaries, or socialize with security researchers."
05:33:08 <pikhq> ... If that's not unconstitutional, it's certainly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
05:33:14 <ehird> btw i like drinking vanilla extract
05:33:16 <pikhq> Not to mention creepy.
05:33:59 <Pthing> restraining people to within a specific region isn't controversial at least
05:34:36 <pikhq> Pthing: It's explicitly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
05:34:45 <pikhq> And reaks of Soviet Russia.
05:34:59 <pikhq> Freedom of travel?
05:35:53 <Pthing> 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
05:35:53 <Pthing> 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country.
05:36:00 <Pthing> well i mean presumably
05:36:09 <GregorR> You just ate some freaking pork, why are you eating a cricket?
05:36:09 <Pthing> this cannot be in reference to imprisonment
05:36:35 <ehird> pikhq: you know that almost all of the government is unconstitutional?
05:36:46 <ehird> we'd be uber-libertarian if we followed the constitution to the letter
05:36:56 <pikhq> ehird: Or have a much larger constitution.
05:37:08 <ehird> pikhq: not without explicitly contradicting the founding statement.
05:37:17 <ehird> in which case, fuck the constitution, we're ignoring it anyway
05:37:34 <pikhq> And not uber-libertarian. Social programs are constitutional.
05:37:44 <pikhq> (Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare)
05:37:46 <ehird> in economics at least.
05:38:30 <ehird> sleep time at least, oklopol: tell me to make the drink tomorrow
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05:41:31 <oklopol> well maybe it actually was sarcasm, since the "totally" makes sarcasm explicit, working as a negation, whereas i actually am going to tell you
05:41:38 <oklopol> or maybe that's double sarcasm
05:41:44 <augur_> vending machines not working :(
05:42:11 <oklopol> augur_: that's what you get for moving
05:42:32 <GregorR> Apparently the "right to a nationality" is a human right???
05:42:56 <augur_> gregorr: makes sense in the term the UN is probably using it in
05:43:15 <GregorR> augur_: Ahhh, OK, yeah, that makes sense I guess. Context is everything.
05:43:40 <Pthing> stateless people are in a fucked up situation
05:43:53 <augur_> "nationality" in the governmental sense just means "belonging to some state or other"
05:44:11 <Slereah> What if you are born in international waters
05:44:14 <augur_> not "belonging to their own state
05:44:14 <GregorR> Poor people born and raised --- yeah!
05:44:26 <Pthing> citizenship from parents
05:44:28 <augur_> that doesnt make you not a national.
05:44:46 <augur_> as pthing said, citizenship in most firstworld countries comes from parents
05:44:54 <Slereah> Pthing : But what if that state is DROIT DU SOL
05:45:12 <augur_> also, gregorr: interestingly there are some people who end up having no country
05:45:27 <augur_> who got on a plane to some country
05:45:41 <augur_> and during the flight, his country was invaded and taken over and ceased to exist
05:45:46 <augur_> rendering his passport useless
05:45:57 <augur_> and no im not thinking of that movie with tom hanks
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05:47:12 <oklopol> augur_: did they kill him to avoid the paperwork
05:47:16 <augur_> A slightly tragicomic portrayal of this condition is the film The Terminal (2004), in which a man is forced to live in an airport due to his unrecognized citizenship status (his homeland had a military coup while he was in transit and the US government refused to recognize its new government). This story was inspired in part by the real-life story of Mehran Karimi Nasseri, who spent almost two decades in the Charles de Gau
05:47:18 <augur_> lle Airport, originally due to conflicts with French law (he refused to claim being an Iranian refugee) plus also the fact he was not welcome in his countries of origin (Iran and Belgium) nor his destination (the United Kingdom). He was eventually granted and served with French immigration documents, but subsequently refused to leave the building.
05:48:10 <augur_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri
05:48:17 <oklopol> i'd love to live in an airport
05:49:19 <oklopol> any big building would work for me
05:49:30 <oklopol> ...or insanely small, that's fun too
05:49:38 <augur_> now hes living in a homeless shelter
05:49:50 <augur_> he'd be awesome to have around
05:50:10 <augur_> go to posh clubs and be like "ever seen terminal? this guy is the real thing"
05:50:44 <GregorR> Reading the wikipedia page on him makes him just seem like a dick.
05:51:57 <GregorR> "Hey if you come back to Belgium we'll give you new papers, then you can go back to the UK." "I don't want to go to Belgium, I want to go to the UK." "OK, that's fine, just come back and get new papers, then you can go." "But I want to go to the UK." "Or maybe you just want to live in an airport as essentially an 18-year publicity stunt?" "Yeah, that's it."
05:52:04 <augur_> im sure he could escape the airport tho
05:52:08 <augur_> noone fucking notices that shit man
05:52:16 <oklopol> something funny about augur wanting to live with him and him being a dick cuz you know gay
05:52:18 <augur_> well, on domestic flights, anyway
05:52:43 <oklopol> i totally see which strings to pull
05:52:50 <GregorR> oklopol: You should do get-punched-in-the-face-up.
05:53:00 <augur_> you can pull my strings ;o
05:53:10 <oklopol> like, insult a random angry dude in the audience
05:53:32 * GregorR is now imagining an augur_ man-nequin
06:30:47 <oklopol> nothing good on your internets?
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06:33:32 <ais523> well, I'm still awake, too
06:34:23 <ehird> you validate my poor decisions
06:34:35 <ais523> I'm going to sleep in the daytime, like I did yesterday
06:35:05 <ehird> ais523: well, I've been up all day and haven't slept yet
06:35:14 -!- augur has joined.
06:35:30 <ehird> and the day before the day preceding this night, I hadn't slept the whole night prior
06:35:40 <ehird> so I know what, by having not slept yet, I'm getting myself into
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06:35:54 <oklopol> i've been trying to go to the bank all week, but i'm always asleep while it's open
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06:38:00 <ehird> maybe I should adopt Uberman's, right now
06:38:38 <oerjan> i was considering going to bed soon, but with this group pressure :D
06:39:20 <oklopol> it must be because this is an international channel and we live in different countries
06:39:31 <ehird> oklopol: yes, there's like, 3 hours difference.
06:41:13 <oklopol> ehird: just remember coming to finland will make christmas come sooner.
06:41:26 <ehird> oerjan: so you haven't slept all day?
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06:42:56 <oerjan> not during night time however
06:44:45 <ehird> oklopol: is finland really cold
06:46:27 <GregorR> `google weather in Finland
06:46:28 <HackEgo> Displays current conditions for all major cities on one page, with five-day forecast and more detailed information for each available. \ www.wunderground.com/global/FI.html - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
06:46:37 <GregorR> Cool, I use wunderground.com :P
06:47:05 <ehird> i wonder if they know what their name implies
06:47:27 <ehird> oklopol: dude that shit sounds kinda cold, it's like 18 C around here nowadays
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06:48:16 <oklopol> i don't know the temperature, could check if i wasn't so tired
06:48:49 <ehird> GregorR: btw http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1347/has-a-guy-been-stuck-in-the-paris-airport-since-1988-for-lack-of-the-right-papers, not as simple as you implied about belgium
06:49:08 <GregorR> ehird: All I know I got from Wikipedia.
06:49:20 <ehird> right, but it's more nuanced than that even on wikipedia GregorR
06:49:24 <ehird> he couldn't just have gone there
06:49:37 <oklopol> all i know is it's warm in a t-shirt
06:49:45 <ehird> oklopol: ... at 10 C?
06:49:49 <ehird> what kind of guy are you
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06:50:15 <oklopol> i occasionally wear a t-shirt in subzero
06:52:29 <ehird> apart from weather finland sounds amazing
06:52:36 <ehird> do you guys have a pirate party
06:52:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ipwp8ekbh9qwu2I_5mBIGQBCNZ9w
06:53:15 <ehird> oklopol: as of about 12 hours ago you guys have a pirate party
06:53:58 <oklopol> well what do you know, i thought we've had one for ages
06:54:03 <ehird> but not an official party
06:54:08 <ehird> they got registered
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07:02:30 <ehird> hi oklopol, ais523, oerjan
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07:06:45 <oklopol> because i am so tired everything is slomo
07:14:09 <ehird> oklopol: you are validating my decision to not sleep yet
07:15:41 <ehird> ais523: validate me.
07:16:04 <ais523> ehird: 88cf5ba3488a2e27d329a495f9413e86
07:16:25 <ehird> ais523: what is that
07:16:37 <ais523> it's an md5 hash of your nickname, for validation purposes
07:16:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you're such an idiot
07:16:55 <ehird> that's usual ping time
07:17:17 <ehird> me to oklopol is 0.71
07:17:20 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: you're pinging slower than ehird
07:17:36 <ehird> ais523: hee, remember ec?
07:17:37 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-PING request from ehird.
07:17:43 <ais523> ehird: could you ping me in lowercase instead?
07:17:48 <ehird> ais523: ask my client
07:17:49 <ais523> there may be something weird about my client
07:18:18 <ehird> anyway, ec just "headdesks repeatedly until he bleeds from the forehead", which makes me happy and joy
07:18:19 <ais523> hmm... but if I ping you in capitals, I still get a time bac
07:18:30 <ais523> so, why does my client not like your pings?
07:18:41 <ais523> it accepts me pinging myself
07:18:51 <ais523> ehird: just got 11 unknown CTCP-PINGs in a row
07:18:55 <ais523> the last was in lowecase
07:18:58 <ehird> that was me hitting the button, then me doing /ctcp
07:19:07 <ais523> something weird is going on here
07:19:28 <ais523> ehird: try again, I've turned the raw log on
07:19:37 <Deewiant> Incidentally, if anybody wants to golf something: while(<STDIN>){if($l++){print substr $_,0,$r;print substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0];print substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}}
07:19:44 <ehird> Deewiant: ...in K?
07:20:03 <ehird> wow, such hard thinking for tiredness
07:20:17 <ehird> Deewiant: describe what it does
07:20:26 <ais523> >> :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk PRIVMSG ais523 :<CTCP>PING 1250749170<CTCP> || >> :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 PRIVMSG ais523 :<CTCP>ping<CTCP>
07:20:46 <ais523> also, when I do /ctcp ais523 ping, it adds an argument to the ping
07:20:53 <ais523> heh, it doesn't accept ping without an argument for some reason
07:21:08 <ais523> but it's fine with a silly argument
07:21:22 <ehird> Deewiant: so what's it do
07:21:35 <Deewiant> Shouldn't be too hard to figure out
07:21:47 <ehird> Deewiant: it's 7am, tell me :|
07:21:49 <Deewiant> I have to go to work now so I can't explain it for about an hour ->
07:21:52 <oerjan> Deewiant: we're all sleep-deprived here
07:21:53 <ehird> i can create, i can't comprefuck you
07:22:19 <ehird> i wonder if drugs make you this stupid
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07:23:58 <ehird> whereforth dost thou cometh
07:24:17 <kwertii> uhhhh.... in search of esotericism
07:24:36 * ehird glances at your channel list
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07:24:40 <ehird> seems a bit programming-biased to me.
07:24:53 <ehird> usually the people who come in here expecting esotericism have no other channels.
07:25:15 <ehird> kwertii: alas, the general consensus here is, I imagine, that esotericism is a load of bullshit. we play around with esoteric programming languages.
07:25:38 <ehird> so, swing and a miss
07:25:55 <kwertii> yeah, I know. I've been here before :)
07:26:06 <ehird> hmm perhaps, I haven't slept
07:26:21 <ehird> kwertii: was it a joke then, i really can't tell atm
07:26:40 <ehird> ...so why come to a channel that you know doesn't cater to what you want?
07:26:57 <kwertii> on the contrary; I came to a channel that I know does cater to what I want. esoteric programming language discussion.
07:27:31 <ehird> but you said the magic kind of esotericism
07:27:40 <ehird> ais523: we don't usually do esoteric magic rituals to create our languages, do we?
07:27:44 <kwertii> no.. I just said esotericism
07:27:56 <oerjan> 08:24 ehird> the magic kind?
07:27:57 <kwertii> which can easily apply to programming languages
07:28:03 <ais523> no, this is strictly the programming kind
07:28:13 <ehird> i have to make Druidcode now.
07:28:18 <ehird> WE WILL FOREVER CROSS BOUNDARIES
07:28:22 <kwertii> programming languages can be magic.
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07:28:31 <ehird> kwertii: you tricksy guy :)
07:28:35 <kwertii> I didn't see a firm distinction there
07:28:45 <ehird> kwertii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism FYI
07:28:57 <ehird> ais523: the compiler checks GPS to see if you're at stonehenge and errors out if you're not
07:29:15 <ais523> that could be kind-of tricky
07:29:29 <ais523> especially as I have reams of fake gpsd data, not from stonehenge though
07:29:44 <ehird> it buys an iphone 3g s for you, so no cheating
07:29:59 <oerjan> i think hexham should count, with that name
07:30:18 <ehird> we only use magic to make ham sandwiches
07:31:00 <oerjan> that sounds very ham-fisted
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07:39:14 <ehird> ais523: good pba solution
07:41:19 <kwertii> so.. what's going on in the esoteric programming world?
07:41:28 <ehird> AnMaster: haven't slept yet, like ais523
07:41:47 <ehird> yes, we could DIE.
07:41:57 * AnMaster watches ata exceptions during resume from disk
07:42:08 <ehird> they usually mean nothing ime
07:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there seems to be some reports about data loss on ext4 related to suspend to ram though
07:42:49 <AnMaster> like the chipset in this laptop
07:45:01 <ehird> mmh... I want a lisp machine...
07:45:43 <ehird> well, you can get one for $675
07:45:54 <kwertii> I thought of buying a Lisp machine back when I had money before I went back to school... till I realized it was the size and heat output of a small refrigerator and the CPU was slower than the one on my phone
07:46:11 <ehird> so... it's not like they're impossible to afford... but while spending a thousand bucks on a new computer seems fine, an old lisp machine...
07:46:21 <ehird> kwertii: 9 x 18 x 25 inches dimensions
07:46:23 <ehird> that's not too big
07:46:25 <ehird> (the old machines)
07:46:38 <ehird> 70 pounds though = 31 kg
07:46:40 <ehird> that's about as heavy as me
07:46:48 <kwertii> ehird: really? ok, I dunno what I was looking at. it seemed unreasonable in any case :) maybe it was the weight.
07:46:57 <ehird> kwertii: probably the newer models
07:47:08 <ehird> but they're just macs running the emulator
07:47:14 <ehird> AnMaster: yep, I'm like 35kg or something
07:47:21 <ehird> maybe 37 now, tops
07:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm slightly more than twice as heavy :P
07:47:42 <ehird> kwertii: but no doubt they're slow and noisy
07:47:49 <ehird> very noisy - the standard solution was to run loooooong cables
07:47:59 <ehird> kwertii: the gem is in the OS and the architecture
07:48:08 <kwertii> ehird: can't you emulate it?
07:48:18 <ehird> the OS, yes, the architecture, no
07:48:26 <ehird> symbolics machines were very much all-the-way-down
07:48:31 <ehird> everything was pervasive
07:50:02 <ehird> kwertii: http://sfxbros.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/_7c2/sfxbros/symbolics-3620-053.jpg a 3620
07:50:09 <ehird> including symbolics keyboard, mouse and screen
07:50:23 <kwertii> interesting.. about what year is that?
07:50:24 <ehird> (they actually made their own screens iirc)
07:50:31 <ehird> kwertii: 80something, of course
07:50:41 <ehird> kwertii: they use ESDI disks
07:50:44 <ehird> a precursor to SCSI
07:50:45 <kwertii> what does it do at the sub-OS level that's cool?
07:51:12 <ehird> kwertii: the architecture is lispy, it has built-in support for tagged pointers, helpers, iirc, for GC, ...
07:51:31 <ehird> kwertii: not hardware GC
07:51:33 <ehird> but support for it
07:51:40 <ehird> the actual gc was at OS level, using the hardware support
07:51:48 <ehird> kwertii: but it has instructions to do taggedp ointers
07:52:01 <ehird> it'd do the operation on the pointer, while simultaneously checking the tag
07:52:09 <ehird> kwertii: custom, of course!
07:52:14 <ehird> that's what made them lisp machines
07:52:35 <ehird> kwertii: in fact, they made everything themselves, apart from iirc the keyboard material
07:52:45 <ehird> despite making all their screen mechanics, they decided that was just too much
07:53:15 <ehird> apparently, they're really, really loud and power hungry the 36xx series
07:53:30 <ehird> but the macivory machines arne't lisp machines, so lame, and the XL machine is both loud and costs $3,500 and is huge
07:53:38 <ehird> kwertii: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt btw
07:53:49 <ehird> "If you really want a collector's item, we have a number of different 36xx" is the line about the machines i'm talking about
07:53:52 <ehird> weigh up to 400 pounds!
07:54:00 <kwertii> huh. you could emulate all that hardware...
07:54:15 <ehird> there are lisp machine emulators
07:54:31 <kwertii> ehird: I suggested this a minute ago and you said "the OS yes but not the rest"
07:54:40 <ehird> kwertii: you can emulate everything of course
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07:54:46 <ehird> but not the experience
07:54:56 <ehird> if there's a layer below, that's a limitation
07:55:01 <ehird> with a lisp machine, everything is there at every level
07:55:03 <kwertii> an emulator won't keep your coffee cup warm
07:55:22 <kwertii> or have the cops show up thinking you're growing marijuana in your closet from your power bill..
07:55:47 <ehird> kwertii: just get a bunch of them. the power bill software is written in c
07:59:56 <kwertii> .ehird so what do you think of Clojure?
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08:00:05 <ehird> it basically sucks.
08:00:36 <ehird> i could write a book about it, but i haven't slept yet so i'm not going to
08:01:26 <kwertii> it fixes my #1 problem with CL, the lack of libraries, and the #2 problem, the massive spec bloat deriving from design-by-committee
08:01:44 <kwertii> but I admit I haven't done any nontrivial projects with it yet, so I don't know how well it will hold up
08:01:58 <ehird> i guess, if you're a practicalist who can deal with the vomit-worthy pile of stench that is using java, then it's fine
08:02:00 <ehird> i'm an idealist who can't
08:02:11 <kwertii> Java runtime != Java the language
08:02:19 <ehird> well aware, thank you
08:02:32 <ehird> the runtime and associated baggage nontheless exists and i find it intolerable
08:02:33 <kwertii> don't get me wrong, I'd prefer something that compiled to machine code if it were available...
08:03:59 <ehird> i don't see lisp as the future
08:04:08 <ehird> it compromises the common usability for the less common usability of macros
08:04:20 <ehird> the macros should be slightly more awkward than coding; lisp gets this dead backwards
08:04:55 <ehird> right now (as others here can attest) I'm obsessed with the K language
08:05:06 <kwertii> CL is frozen in 1984 or so, which is part of the problem, and Scheme devs are more into writing cool recursive fractal algorithms than actually, say, interacting with a user
08:05:52 <kwertii> if you know of a job where you get paid to write fractals, pls let me know :)
08:06:06 <ehird> yay, a language that's good for getting jobs!
08:06:12 <ehird> i'm switching to C++.
08:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, s/C++/Java/ these days :/
08:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: but we're discussing java
08:06:32 <kwertii> I hate having a job as much as the next guy, but I gotta pay the rent...
08:06:32 <ehird> kwertii: gets jobs
08:06:49 <ehird> job security especially from all the pointless unmaintainable code you'll inevitably write.
08:06:49 <kwertii> and ideally I'd rather not be stuck using a suck language for it
08:07:11 <ehird> i would never write software products anyway, only backend code
08:07:19 <ehird> so it doesn't bother me much
08:08:01 <ehird> (i have concluded that the selling of unscarce goods like software is at best pointless (as it can be, morally, made more or less impossible) or worst immoral)
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08:08:32 <kwertii> ehird: couldn't agree more. but alas, I'm not independently wealthy, so I am forced to vend my labor at the crass altar of capitalism.. :(
08:08:45 <ehird> i don't mind capitalism.
08:08:49 <ehird> but selling software contradicts capitalism.
08:08:54 <ehird> capitalism is about scarce goods
08:09:20 <kwertii> ehird: if someone would pay me to write GPL code, I'd be fine with that
08:09:27 <ehird> but i'm crazily principled and as of yet under the age of employment, so what do i know :)
08:09:44 <kwertii> s/gpl/<insert favorite license>/g
08:10:07 <ehird> ideally there'd be no copyright and I wouldn't have to license things... but, MIT
08:10:11 <kwertii> yeah, I remember that... under age of employment.. that was nice
08:10:28 <kwertii> nowadays if I don't get money, I starve. that would suck. a lot.
08:10:33 <ehird> starving is quite bad
08:10:46 <ehird> though it's easy to not starve
08:10:53 <ehird> harder to do the rest
08:10:58 <kwertii> I've also grown fond of sleeping indoors
08:11:09 <ehird> what country do you live in?
08:11:46 <ehird> in the uk at least it's perfectly possible to live in a house with food without working, although of course this is being a leech
08:12:30 <kwertii> it's a bit harder here. nobody gives a fuck if you don't have a place to live.
08:12:52 <kwertii> there are homeless shelters, but they're not exactly pleasant
08:13:01 <ehird> i always just assumed other places have a similar system
08:13:11 <ehird> it's perfectly possible to live in an ok house quite comfortably here without working
08:13:17 <ehird> well i say quite ok
08:13:19 <ehird> not that okay, but
08:13:45 <ehird> i guess in the us that'd fail due to people going "taxes! ohhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
08:14:30 <kwertii> also, the concept of the role of govt is rather different here compared to Europe... there was a huge backlash against the welfare state model starting with Reagan in the 1980s to the present
08:14:54 <ehird> it's insane how far-right the us is
08:15:17 <ehird> yet i've seen someone not entirely off their rocker claim that they think most of the world would consider obama far-left
08:15:31 <ehird> then again they also think he wasn't born in the usa, so i guess he is off his rocker
08:15:40 <kwertii> *shrugs* 1) it's not as bad as foreigners think, and 2) the country is split about 50-50 between right and left. the right are just much better organized and more vocal, so their presence is overstated in the media
08:16:12 <ehird> (1) seriously, man, i follow your politics. the only way it could be fine is a reality distortion field when you enter
08:16:15 <ehird> (2) but your "left" is democrats
08:16:20 <ehird> democrats are right wing too
08:16:29 <kwertii> my city supervisor here in SF is from the Green Party
08:16:36 <ehird> i mean, i say this in the uk, and the UK is right-wing!
08:17:02 <kwertii> but SF is far-left by US standards..
08:17:04 <ehird> kwertii: the greens are okay from what i gather
08:17:15 <ehird> well, Cynthia McKinney is insane
08:18:08 <kwertii> the center here is definitely to the right of the center in Europe, incl the UK
08:18:38 <ehird> basically, i consider the only countries with an acceptable political climate to be the european social democracies
08:19:04 <kwertii> eh. I lived in Germany for a year, it wasn't that great politically
08:19:12 <ehird> i wouldn't class germany under that
08:19:19 <kwertii> it was run by Social Democrats at the time..
08:19:44 <ehird> err, that's just a name
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08:21:39 <ehird> "It consists of the kingdoms of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.[2] While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland"
08:21:46 <kwertii> they seem nice politically, but most Scandinavians I've met irl were *ahem* not very friendly
08:22:24 <kwertii> I wouldn't want to live there
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08:22:38 <ehird> as i was about to asy
08:22:53 * ehird glances at AnMaster, Deewiant, FireFly, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros, MizardX, olsner and oklopol
08:22:56 <ehird> oh, and possibly MigoMipo
08:23:07 <ehird> kwertii: want to revise your statement about scandinavians? :
08:23:16 <Deewiant> Hooray for highlighting everybody for no good reason
08:23:16 <kwertii> 50% of them were perfectly nice
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08:23:22 <ehird> Deewiant: uh, for very good reason
08:23:30 <kwertii> 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason
08:23:31 <ehird> you're all scandinavians
08:23:37 <ehird> kwertii: omg! people are dicks.
08:23:39 <olsner> obviously, you must've offended those scandinavians somehow
08:23:52 <kwertii> more than the usual "people being dicks" level
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08:24:14 <ehird> are you suggesting that scandinavia's weather makes people assholes :)
08:24:15 <Deewiant> ehird: But their input isn't needed: you could just say "about 25% of the people here are Scandinavian", or whatever
08:24:26 <ehird> Deewiant: that is much less directly convincing
08:24:33 <ehird> because it's vagguer
08:24:40 <kwertii> Berlin. I met a Norweigan girl in Berlin, asked her whether it was very different from Norway. She said, "oh yes, everyone is so *friendly* here! It's not like this in Norway..." my American friend and I looked at each other, jaws agape..
08:24:50 <AnMaster> gah, bad lag after reconnecting
08:25:06 <AnMaster> the context for "<AnMaster> kwertii, where was this?" thus was "<kwertii> 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason"
08:25:11 <AnMaster> in case it arrived much much later
08:25:50 <kwertii> AnMaster: I was going to a German language school in Berlin that had many Scandinavian students. half were perfectly nice and friendly, the other half were indifferent / openly hostile, even to the other Scandinavians."
08:26:24 <Deewiant> Most Finns are "indifferent" to each other
08:26:39 <Deewiant> I don't know about "openly hostile", maybe that's just what it looks like to an American :-P
08:26:50 <kwertii> Deewiant: yes, I suspect that is it.
08:26:59 <AnMaster> kwertii, not representative of the actual countries I think
08:27:14 <ehird> btw you should ignore AnMaster, he's stupid :)
08:28:05 <AnMaster> and you should ignore ehird for being silly :P
08:28:08 <Deewiant> But anyway, back to while(<STDIN>){if($l++){print join(substr $_,0,$r),substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0],substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}}
08:28:19 <kwertii> AnMaster: I dunno. the Norweigan girl described Berliners as "friendly".
08:29:01 <ehird> Deewiant: what does it do
08:29:35 <Deewiant> ehird: It finds the indices of * and an optional $ on the first line, then for each line after that prints the range up to where the * was, repeats the *-to-$ range argv[0] times, then prints the $-to-EOL range
08:30:06 <Deewiant> Because there's no good reason why not
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08:31:56 <Deewiant> It's essentially expanding a simple description of simple Befunge
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08:33:11 <Deewiant> My guess is that that can be stripped to half of that in Perl
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08:39:04 <kwertii> you guys have any intuitions on whether/how different human languages could be said to have different "complexities" (for some definition of "complexity")?
08:39:46 <kwertii> Deewiant: this is someone in here?
08:40:02 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil
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08:40:49 <kwertii> I'm studying linguistics now, and the general party line in the field is that it is horribly politically incorrect to suggest that one language is more "complex" than another
08:43:09 <kwertii> Deewiant: ... wow. awesome. I just have to show people this grammar, and they will be disabused of that idea
08:44:46 <Deewiant> IIRC Ilaksh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilaksh) has simpler phonology but more complex grammar
08:45:00 <kwertii> though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex
08:45:24 <kwertii> I can't think of a good way to formalize complexity in the context of human language
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12:09:33 <Sgeo> Hm, ehird's not in here :(
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15:08:14 <Sgeo> Installing VirtualBox, which requires disconnecting. BRB.
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15:28:50 <Deewiant> Hmph, I tried a regex variation but it only became longer; I fail at Perl golf
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15:56:22 * AnMaster goes and decreases cache misses in cfunge :P
15:56:28 <AnMaster> just to annoy ehird and Deewiant
15:57:02 <AnMaster> now, checking for if fingerprint is implemented will soon have a unit stride of a funge cell :D
15:59:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, currently my scheme for checking for fingerprints is simple, I have a struct with { fingerprint, pointer to loader function, implemented opcode list} basically
15:59:44 <AnMaster> I found that a linear scan was faster than a binary search
15:59:47 <Deewiant> Ah, and you just did an search through that
16:00:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, binary search is slower than a linear search with abort if we went too far
16:00:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because on 64-bit platforms you could fit about 1.5 such structs in a cache line before
16:01:06 <AnMaster> which is clearly suboptimal when searching through them
16:01:26 <AnMaster> better find the index you want, then look up the entire data thingy for that only
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16:14:57 <Deewiant> Is it possible to close an fd in /proc/$pid/fd/ from outside the program somehow
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16:18:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, inject things with gdb?
16:18:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but to me, doing so sounds like a seriously bad idea
16:19:33 <Deewiant> Starting a program with "foo &" and wanting to close its stdin
16:20:06 <AnMaster> okay, for some reason the unit stride access slowed it down according to profiling
16:20:13 <Deewiant> In this case I can just modify the program to exit if it gets a certain input line, but I'm wondering if that'd be possible
16:20:58 <AnMaster> possibly hardware prefetcher was smart enough to prefetch in the normal case, but now that we needed to find the matching entry in the other array as well that caused a cache miss?
16:21:23 <Deewiant> You can try allocating one contiguous block for both arrays
16:21:30 <Deewiant> But it might still fail if it gets too big
16:21:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean storing them both in a struct after each other?
16:22:21 <Deewiant> Actually I meant just "fingerprints = malloc(size of fingerprints + size of data); data = &fingerprints[size of fingerprints];"
16:22:37 <Deewiant> A struct might have some padding, after all ;-P
16:22:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep, on my old pentium 3 the unit stride version is faster
16:22:59 <AnMaster> and iirc that lacks hardware prefetch
16:23:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, since they are stored as static const
16:23:26 <Deewiant> So add a configuration entry to your CMake, asking the user if his processor can prefetch ;-)
16:23:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, the difference codewise between the different variants is too large
16:24:13 <Deewiant> If they're constants the struct way still works
16:24:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fun thing: even on my intel core 2 duo laptop, gcc generates a cfunge that is significantly faster
16:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. I was just saying the malloc way didn't
16:25:22 <AnMaster> since you basically are suggesting I should use unaligned access to it
16:25:28 <Deewiant> You might want to optimize for memory use instead of CPU time
16:25:45 <Deewiant> Although they're pointers so they're pretty much guaranteed to be aligned anyway
16:25:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought about an option for that.
16:26:33 <AnMaster> would be useful for "embedded cfunge" ;P
16:27:11 <AnMaster> but too much work for too little gain (currently at least)
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16:30:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really, concurrent funge is irritating, it isn't very useful (all IPs blocks on blocking IO...) and it prevents JITing, since you can't do stuff like constant folding the program or such
16:30:58 <AnMaster> or optimising idioms like >:#,_
16:31:58 <Deewiant> You can still optimize in the single-threaded case
16:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but that basically means two implementations
16:32:38 <Deewiant> Or do something like suspend an IP doing >:#,_, run the others until they would do something side-effecting, count how many characters could've been output in that time, output that many
16:33:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well yes, if you want to JIT the whole thing
16:33:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, optimising idioms would probably best be implemented as a part of a JIT
16:34:01 <AnMaster> because, looking for idioms would be quite expensive if you did it every time you hit > in an interpreter
16:34:13 <AnMaster> or tracking last few instructions executed
16:34:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just adding a tick counter makes a measurable difference in cfunge.
16:35:18 <AnMaster> (the fact that that difference is around 0.010 shows just how fast cfunge is at mycology :P)
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16:38:00 <AnMaster> $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null
16:38:13 <AnMaster> $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null
16:38:18 <Deewiant> No, it just shows how slow your computer is :-P
16:38:29 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:38:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just showing how much faster mylaptop is
16:39:26 <Deewiant> I guess that's without exact bounds
16:40:06 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened debug asserts p:64 c:32]
16:40:16 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened p:64 c:32]
16:40:40 <AnMaster> wait was wrong directory on desktop
16:40:57 <AnMaster> On desktop: cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:32]
16:41:16 <AnMaster> it seems like ubuntu modified stuff to always use the checking versions of some libc functions
16:41:23 <AnMaster> which is what the hardened switch normally does
16:41:35 <AnMaster> so I guess it could be even faster
16:42:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, let me check without exact bounds :P
16:42:20 <Deewiant> Interestingly low user time on that last one, then
16:42:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I was not in debug directory for that, I managed to change terminal tab between that and checking the version
16:45:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this may be because I had to turn off hpet on my laptop due to it being buggy
16:45:37 <AnMaster> regression in all kernels after 2.6.24 for this chipset. bug report exists
16:46:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so user timing may be inexact on there
16:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in fact, seems to be multiples of 0.008 unless at least 0.020
16:47:19 <AnMaster> or 0.004 so that theory didn't hold
16:47:44 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -Fb ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:47:58 <AnMaster> that is without exact bounds, without concurrent funge support, and without fingerprints
16:48:15 <AnMaster> with fingerprints that ends up at:
16:48:18 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:48:30 <AnMaster> oh yeah, I forgot, it also wasn't linked against ncurses
16:51:25 <Deewiant> Hrmph, how should I talk to a process started as a background job
16:51:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, there are several ways
16:51:43 <AnMaster> depending on how much you need to tell it
16:51:53 <AnMaster> signals, sockets, fifos for example
16:52:21 <AnMaster> watching a directory with gamin or similar to look for new request files in it? ;P
16:52:24 <Deewiant> I just want as simple a way as possible to give it textual input from a shell script
16:52:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok signals is a bad idea then
16:53:09 <AnMaster> I deigned a protocol for arbitrary data using just SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2
16:53:10 <Deewiant> So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately
16:53:30 <Deewiant> I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open
16:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mkfifo then keep that file open from inside your source?
16:54:09 <AnMaster> but of course, pipe() works if both programs will run all the time
16:54:13 <Deewiant> Ideally I could keep this as reading from stdin
16:54:26 <pikhq> I'd just like to note that, for all its flaws, Erlang makes for nice servers.
16:54:46 <pikhq> Erm. In spite of all its flaws.
16:54:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for any data over SIGUSR[12]: Let SIGUSR1 be equal to the bit 0, and SIGUSR2 be equal to the bit 1
16:55:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that's rather obvious.
16:55:07 <AnMaster> wait for a confirmation using SIGUSR1
16:55:15 <AnMaster> since otherwise signals might be merged
16:55:45 <AnMaster> if the other process want to send to you, use SIGUSR2 as kind of "Now it's my turn to talk"
16:56:18 <AnMaster> so for receiving process: SIGUSR1 is confirm, SIGUSR2 is "I want to send"
16:56:47 <AnMaster> there may be a race condition for confirming SIGUSR2
16:57:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, I suggest shared memory. It is the coolest.
16:58:06 <Deewiant> Speed is uninteresting, the data amount is minimal
16:58:23 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately
16:59:20 <AnMaster> use mkfifo to create a file on the file system
16:59:30 <AnMaster> make sure to open it in non-blocking mode if you need that
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16:59:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then echo stuff into that fifo
16:59:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems simple enough to me
17:00:09 <AnMaster> have done it a few times myself using mkfifo(1) in bash scripts
17:01:55 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open
17:02:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, select is simple if you use a high level language :P
17:02:36 <AnMaster> heck, even epoll is simple in something like erlang
17:02:39 <Deewiant> "mkfifo foo; cat foo &; echo a >> foo" -> cat hits EOF and dies
17:02:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't do it like that
17:02:55 <AnMaster> if you want to do it in a shell script
17:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in POSIX shells exec is stupidly overloaded
17:04:14 <AnMaster> exec foo is the normal variant
17:05:16 <AnMaster> to open it on fd 4 in the shell itself
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17:07:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, better tell me what language you are coding this in
17:07:26 <AnMaster> both for the controlling app and for the app that is supposed to get those messages
17:07:46 <Deewiant> A shell script on the other side, Python is the app getting the input
17:08:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tricky, that prevents using unix sockets I guess
17:08:33 <Deewiant> I guess the mkfifo is the easiest way to go on the shell script side
17:08:34 <AnMaster> since, I can't think of a way to do that in shell
17:09:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, and I would assume python abstracts away the horrible interface of select() and similar
17:09:17 <Deewiant> I'm sure it does, but I don't know anything about that so I'll use them directly
17:09:34 <Deewiant> The abstractions are what I was using before, and they close FIFOs :-P
17:09:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes, trying to read from a closed fifo won't work
17:10:05 <Deewiant> Surely it's not the "echo foo >> fifo" that kills it?
17:10:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the >> for there
17:10:50 <Deewiant> I mean, can I do "mkfifo fifo; proggy-that-does-clever-polling-or-whatever fifo; echo foo >> fifo; echo bar >> fifo"
17:10:54 <AnMaster> append to the end of the fifo?
17:11:10 <AnMaster> I think >> makes no sense for a fifo :P
17:11:14 <Deewiant> My intuition would be that >> doesn't close it
17:11:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, >> means "append to end of file, instead of truncate file and append to that"
17:11:38 <Deewiant> But if you say so, it's the same as > then
17:12:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, your python process will get an EOF message. so handle that then as "end of message"
17:12:18 <AnMaster> and wait for future stuff to be sent to the fifo
17:12:38 <Deewiant> So if I do select([fd], [], [])
17:12:50 <Deewiant> And then just read a line from the fd
17:13:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try it and see? I don't remember the exact results of that
17:13:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, possibly you will have to open it in non-blocking mode
17:13:31 <AnMaster> The kernel maintains exactly one pipe object for each FIFO special file that is opened by at least one process. The FIFO must be opened on both
17:13:32 <AnMaster> ends (reading and writing) before data can be passed. Normally, opening the FIFO blocks until the other end is opened also.
17:13:41 <AnMaster> A process can open a FIFO in non-blocking mode. In this case, opening for read only will succeed even if no-one has opened on the write side yet,
17:13:41 <AnMaster> opening for write only will fail with ENXIO (no such device or address) unless the other end has already been opened.
17:14:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes I think you will get an EOF every time the other end is closed. And?
17:14:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just don't open it read *and* write, because that is implementation defined
17:14:58 <AnMaster> but it isn't what you want to happen I think
17:21:48 <Deewiant> Alright, got it to work, thanks
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17:31:06 <ehird> slept from about 9am-4:30pm
17:32:14 <ehird> 00:45:00 <kwertii> though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex
17:32:41 <Deewiant> He's not been here for about 7 hours
17:35:47 <ehird> anyway, I just want to say that 09:00-16:30 is a wonderful sleep schedule, and everyone should adopt it
17:36:42 <Asztal> I slept from 3am to 5pm :(
17:37:02 <ehird> that can't work well
17:37:43 <Asztal> it didn't really help either
17:38:02 <ehird> i've never felt so good on seven and a half hours of sleep
17:38:05 <Asztal> I either forgot to set my alarm, or it failed to wake me
17:38:41 <Asztal> sometimes I go to bed really tired, and wake up fully refreshed after four hours of sleep... it's perplexing
17:38:43 <ehird> i woke up naturally
17:41:09 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1536576 My first bit of non-trivial Erlang. Whoo.
17:41:30 <ehird> why are you torturing yourself
17:41:41 <ehird> shit, wow, that's verbose
17:41:49 <ehird> that could be like 50 lines of haskell
17:42:07 <pikhq> It's a lot of process spawning.
17:42:24 <pikhq> And explicit recursion.
17:42:30 <ehird> step 1, spawn processes
17:42:34 <ehird> step 3, scalability!
17:43:56 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c0gf/clojure_the_zombiereanimated_corpse_of_lisp/c0c8irt / Yay lisp machines!
17:44:08 <ehird> the loper os guy is making an FPGA flash disk card for one :)
17:46:08 <ehird> gah, now I have to save up
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17:59:57 <ehird> http://www.asciilifeform.com/paralleleye/eye.html / this head mounted display looks awesome
18:00:11 <ehird> 720x280! although monochrom
18:01:29 <ehird> (GregorR: http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/lizzy/pe-hat.html)
18:01:34 <ehird> Hats + head mounted displays!
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18:02:34 <ehird> ("16 red scale, and supposedly looked like a 60″ screen at 5 feet." sweet)
18:06:54 <ehird> grr, current graphic interfaces suck so much
18:07:16 <ehird> i'm going to write a python thingy that lets me do "grid[x,y] = z" as a formula, with variables like frame
18:07:36 <ehird> grid[x,y] = pixels[x,y][frame%2]
18:07:53 <ehird> also, updating in real time, I hate pressing run
18:08:13 <ehird> now how do I embed pygame inside tk
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18:10:41 <pikhq> Always a good answer.
18:13:53 <ehird> ugh, tk is so slow
18:16:05 <ehird> pikhq: do you grok tk?
18:17:32 <pikhq> I may not grok foreign-language bindings thereof, though.
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18:18:56 <ehird> pikhq: first, how can I make typing into the text widget not feel like wading in molasses?
18:19:20 <pikhq> ehird: ... What the *fuck* did you do?
18:19:26 <ehird> Use OS X, probably.
18:19:36 <ehird> The platform that nobody in FOSS gives a royal shit about.
18:19:40 <pikhq> I repeat: what the *fuck* did you do?
18:19:40 <ehird> (But they certainly pander to Windows users.)
18:19:49 <ehird> root = Tkinter.Tk()
18:19:49 <ehird> w = Tkinter.Text(root)
18:20:07 <pikhq> The Tcl/Tk OS X port is written by Apple...
18:20:12 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, it would be quite nice if it recognised ANY of my bindings.
18:20:18 <ehird> Not originally, iirc.
18:20:20 <ehird> They just maintain it.
18:20:27 <ehird> (My bindings = My OS' keybindings.)
18:20:51 <pikhq> So... Tkinter is bad?
18:20:55 <ehird> No, Tkinter is fine.
18:21:02 <ehird> IDLE is fine on non-OS X platforms.
18:21:07 <ehird> On OS X, it's horrible to use
18:21:16 <ehird> In conclusion: Fuuuuuuck you Tk
18:21:24 <pikhq> package require Tk;pack [text .w]
18:21:55 <ehird> Better. Not perfect.
18:22:20 <pikhq> That... Is very weird.
18:22:51 <ehird> Is it so hard for you to comprehend that Tk sucks on OS X? :P
18:22:56 <ehird> I mean, it's horribly non-native, even if it was fast.
18:23:15 <pikhq> I can only conclude that it has gone massively downhill since I last used it.
18:23:24 <ehird> It uses a WHITE BACKGROUND. They fuckin' use the button widgets and couldn't even write one line to change the window background to be OS X's.
18:23:37 <ehird> Oh, and right clicking seems to be "paste" in the text widget.
18:23:46 <ehird> Hmm, only if you select something.
18:23:48 <ehird> It copies it next to it
18:23:49 <pikhq> That is... Quite implausible.
18:23:52 <ehird> Ooh, no, where you click.
18:24:12 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that it just uses Carbon.
18:24:19 <pikhq> (Tcl 8.6 uses Cocoa)
18:24:28 <ehird> pikhq: they implement their own text widget, obviously
18:24:54 <ehird> it's easy to get a decent OS X looking thing up, people just don't care, or think that they're doing us a favour by bringing their obviously superior platform conventions to us
18:25:40 <pikhq> Think you could tell me the version of Tk being used?
18:25:47 <pikhq> (return value of package require Tk)
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18:26:49 <ehird> % package require Tk
18:26:50 <ehird> % % [ehird:~] % which wish
18:26:55 <ehird> /opt/local/bin/wish
18:26:58 <ehird> Woah, that messed up.
18:27:03 <ehird> ok, so I'm using a macports tcl
18:27:12 <ehird> my system tcl is 8.4
18:27:30 <ehird> and is the same, except maybe a little faster
18:28:56 * ehird wonders what he can embed pygame in
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18:29:18 <pikhq> ehird: I strongly suspect Macports is doing something weird.
18:29:29 <ehird> pikhq! Shut up! I tested it with my system Tcl!
18:29:32 <ehird> Tk. Sucks. On. OS. X.
18:29:53 <pikhq> ehird: Except that it doesn't. Except for you.
18:30:26 <ehird> What's your sample?
18:30:50 <ehird> FYI, http://pastie.org/590048.txt?key=wmjzqz4idjslw2inbbh9rg and http://pastie.org/590050.txt?key=4ooj6eeey5vtvrlsy03aq are the portfiles.
18:30:59 <ehird> Protip: They just use the official sources.
18:31:41 <pikhq> Download ActiveTcl. If it still sucks, file a bug report and feel free to execute someone, because that's an epic regression.
18:31:54 <ehird> An epic regression, or I just notice these things more than you
18:32:14 <ehird> Most people who use OS X without actually switching to it... aren't very picky about it.
18:32:26 <ehird> fyi, I tried it in like 2006-2007 too
18:33:19 <ehird> "Make it not suck"
18:33:31 <ehird> ActiveTcl wants me to run an installer package, no doubt to pollute my system directories.
18:33:50 <ehird> It mangles /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework
18:34:00 <ehird> Admittedly, that doesn't exist, but.
18:34:05 <ehird> A lot of files I'd have to clean up
18:36:34 <ehird> Thanks, ActiveTcl; just open a documentation page in my browser without asking.
18:36:47 <ehird> pikhq: gimme the code
18:37:32 <pikhq> package require Tk;pack [text .w]
18:37:59 <ehird> Exactly the frikkin same
18:38:08 <ehird> now what files did this garbage install
18:38:32 <pikhq> Then feel free to say Tk on OS X sucks.
18:38:44 <ehird> now what can I embed pygame into...
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18:40:30 <ehird> there's no way to make them go faster
18:42:56 <ehird> yeah, trackpoints look quite cool though
18:43:03 <ehird> and mice can be good
18:43:52 <ehird> as a diversion, here are the lyrics to a popular song: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/daft%20punk/around%20the%20world_10076007.html
18:44:00 <pikhq> I'm, of course, referring to the common input paradigm that uses mice a lot, called WIMP. ;)
18:44:05 <ehird> kinda hard to figure them out
18:44:08 <ehird> helps to sing along, you know
18:44:33 <ehird> pikhq: "Of course, I meant something totally different."
18:44:48 <pikhq> ehird: Of course, by all that, I meant that your mother is fat.
18:45:11 <ehird> Yo momma so fat they put her in Vista and that's why it takes up over ten gigabytes.
18:46:27 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc :D <-- where is that quote from?
18:46:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, only reason you managed to say that before me was that I was away eating
18:47:39 <ehird> you should give up eating so you always win
18:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: also, Star Wars.
18:48:29 <ehird> ...as I found when it rung a bell and so took three seconds to google.
18:49:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's almost a darths & droids crossover
18:50:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah, he had a star wars theme in IWC too
18:50:40 <AnMaster> was quite a long while ago last time
18:50:50 <oerjan> since the premise of darths & droids is that the roleplayers are in an alternative history where star wars doesn't exist
18:51:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: um this is not a crossover with star wars, this is a crossover with somewhere star wars (movie) doesn't exist
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18:51:56 <ehird> i like how AnMaster "got the joke" without actually getting the joke
18:52:15 <AnMaster> clearly oerjan's connection doesn't work in the shower
18:52:24 <AnMaster> or why else would he quit the computer?
18:52:42 <ehird> Because... he's not here?
18:52:46 <AnMaster> obviously he plans to take computer with him
18:52:54 <AnMaster> so he could just do /away and leave computer on
18:53:10 <AnMaster> but since he took the computer with him, and wlan doesn't work in shower
18:53:22 <AnMaster> ...he has a water proof computer!
18:53:43 <ehird> anyway, I want a lisp machine.
18:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you said that before. A. Few. Times!
18:54:03 <ehird> no, but i mean like
18:54:06 <ehird> not just "oh it'd be lovely to have"
18:54:13 <ehird> i actually want to take actions to direct myself to owning one
18:54:27 <ehird> to muffle the noise i will put a bunch of thick clothes on top of it and then put it in a wardrobe :P
18:54:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so you plan to get that instead of the laptop?
18:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: longer-term than that
18:54:43 <ehird> Who cares about heat?
18:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it will overheat
18:55:09 <ehird> they're so loud the fans must be working hard
18:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, if you block the fans with thick clothes the fan effect will be very low
18:55:40 <AnMaster> actually I suspect the fans are old
18:55:52 <ehird> well, i want a new machine of course, not used
18:55:56 <AnMaster> maybe replacing with modern fans that can shuffle as much air
18:55:57 <ehird> although it'll have been made in the 80s
18:56:10 <AnMaster> before they found out how to make quieter fans
18:56:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll just not cover the exhaust itself
18:56:31 <AnMaster> I assume it radiates some as well
18:57:07 <ehird> http://lh3.ggpht.com/_q3-C8UUljH4/Rj4HReBP2iI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/9bbBBB1kwXM/image5-1.jpg
18:57:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't seen non-metal pc towers in many years no. well, possibly the front is plastic, but the rest is usually metal it seems
18:57:22 <ehird> more appealing picture: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/Symbolics-4.JPG
18:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: well the inside sure
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18:57:59 <ehird> I need to lay off that key
18:58:18 <ehird> they *are* single-user machines
18:58:26 <ehird> the later models were even smaller: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/xl1201x2.jpg
18:58:52 <ehird> but I will never have $3,500 to spend on one of them
18:59:05 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the 3620's dimensions are
18:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, make surface uneven, slap on an apple logo and you would basically have a ~1995 mac case!
18:59:31 <ehird> AnMaster: 22.86 x 45.72 x 63.5 cm
18:59:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, that is about 150% larger I think
18:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: and it weighs 31.75kg to 181.43kg depending on configuration
19:00:16 <ehird> cofiguration is 4 MWords with a 760 MB of ESDI disk and a 17" monochrome
19:00:16 <ehird> console with keyboard and 3-button mouse. You can add another 760 MB disk
19:00:16 <ehird> for an additional $150. You can add additional memory for $50 per MWord up
19:00:16 <ehird> to a total of 8 MWords. You can upgrade to the 19" premium monochrome
19:00:17 <ehird> monitor for an additional $300. The major problem with all of these
19:00:18 <ehird> machines is disks. They do not have a SCSI bus and use very old ESDI, SMD
19:00:20 <ehird> or ST506 disks. The most disk space you can get on one of them is 1.5 GB,
19:00:24 <ehird> they made the monitors, keyboards and mic
19:00:33 <ehird> (EVERY component of the monitors)
19:00:40 <ehird> but not the plastic used for the keycaps
19:00:46 <ehird> they decided that was just going too far
19:01:00 <ehird> AnMaster: and, I guess the disk for one
19:01:07 <ehird> power supply especially
19:01:21 <ehird> this is an 80s machine
19:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: it uses a royal fuckton
19:01:37 <ehird> (that's bigger than both a metric fuckton and an imperial fucktonne)
19:01:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so... what made the power supplies back then so heavy
19:02:14 <ehird> The C64 is like 100x less powerful
19:02:28 <ehird> but really, it's basically a mainframe innabox
19:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the disk predates SCSI
19:02:43 <ehird> of course it's heavy
19:02:51 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, keyboard and mouse:
19:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, SCSI is an interface standard though
19:03:06 <ehird> Not at the time, AnMaster
19:03:33 <ehird> The main processor had a 36 bit word (divided up as 4 or 8 bits of tags, and 32 bits of data or 28 bits of memory address). Memory words were 44 bits, the additional 8 bits being used for error-correcting code (ECC).
19:03:47 <AnMaster> ehird, but how the disk is constructed inside doesn't depend on SCSI or not
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19:03:54 <ehird> Deewiant: So 3.5 MB
19:04:08 <ehird> We don't call ECC 64-bit memory bigger
19:04:12 <ehird> AnMaster: in other words
19:04:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... An ST506, man.
19:04:19 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:04:22 <ehird> Deewiant: So 36 bits.
19:04:42 <Deewiant> ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that
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19:04:45 <pikhq> That predates "standard hard drive interface".
19:05:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, um. wikipedia claims ST506 was 5 MB. Yet ehird quoted the system as "up to 1.5 GB" above
19:05:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: ... That's how they work.
19:05:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, that's the maximum addressable.
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19:05:30 <ehird> Deewiant: It uses magic pixie dust to correct the errors
19:05:34 <ehird> pikhq: shut up, it came with more than 5mb
19:05:38 <ehird> it came with like a gig
19:05:57 <ehird> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/keyboard.JPG
19:05:57 <ehird> http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/img/peripheral/kbd/symbolics^mouse.jpg
19:05:59 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that <-- haha
19:06:01 <ehird> except mouse was beige, whatever
19:06:03 <pikhq> I presume it used a hard drive with the ST506 interface, rather than the ST506 hard drive, then.
19:06:11 <ehird> note the fun keys on the keyboard!
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19:06:39 <pikhq> Must've been an expensive SOB.
19:06:48 <ehird> pikhq: In the day, probably about $7k
19:07:26 -!- nooga has joined.
19:07:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The 3640 is more of an acceptable size to you: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Symbolics3640.JPG
19:07:29 <Deewiant> Yes, in retrospect it's rather obvious
19:07:59 <nooga> signal processing guys
19:08:04 <ehird> The keyboard and monitor are resting on top of it. So, yes.
19:08:06 <nooga> how to asses quailty of a random number series?
19:08:22 <ehird> BTW, the Lisp Machines had no memory protection or users, iirc.
19:08:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I want a small lisp machine. I want a LISP phone!
19:08:29 <ehird> They were single-user affairs.
19:08:38 <ehird> So don't go around offering shell accounts...
19:09:23 <ehird> I like how they had CD-ROM drives.
19:09:27 <ehird> My brain doesn't process them as in the same era.
19:09:40 <ehird> Not like they could distribute the gigs of software on floppy...
19:10:14 <nooga> wonder if someone bothered to create a LISP processor using FPGA
19:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: What is there to show?
19:10:28 <AnMaster> if a modern cd fits in a huge 5.whatever" hole
19:10:32 <AnMaster> how large would it have been then
19:10:53 <ehird> Btw, size comparison time.
19:10:56 <ehird> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3%20old%20machines/SMBX_3600_XL_3620-2.JPG
19:10:58 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly the drive should be enormous
19:10:59 <ehird> 3600, XL1200, 3620
19:11:06 <ehird> Look at the fucking SIZE of the 3600!
19:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, they learnt how to use IC around the time of the middle one? ~
19:12:06 <ehird> Can't find a piccy of the cd drive.
19:12:20 <ehird> Grr I hate the MacIvory
19:12:25 <ehird> It's a Mac, dammit!
19:12:30 <ehird> I don't care if it runs the OS.
19:13:20 <ehird> #lisp should buy up Symbolics. :)
19:15:41 <nooga> are there any true random number generators publicly available besides random.org ?
19:16:42 <AnMaster> nooga, don't trust them if you are paranoid!
19:17:25 <pikhq> nooga: A CCD camera.
19:18:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't it, like, all black?
19:18:15 <pikhq> No, there's quantum noise.
19:18:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh ok, not a lot of it I assume?
19:18:41 <pikhq> So, as far as we know, it's at least as random as a geiger counter.
19:19:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: At least enough to be usable as a source of entropy.
19:19:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, since I remember taking all black pictures before, that were actually completely black except at some *statically* slightly off places
19:19:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it's fairly impossible for the hotbits owner to do anything fwiw
19:19:27 <ehird> near impossible at least
19:19:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Specifically, web-cam.
19:20:04 <ehird> that noise is because of quantum?
19:20:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? I tested with a good camera that was upper-mid-end a few years ago
19:20:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, but you say webcams are more random? how comes?
19:20:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Good cameras tend to try to filter the noise. Webcams don't bother.
19:21:17 <ehird> Anti-quantum particles
19:21:27 <pikhq> Multiple samples, averaging, IIRC.
19:21:41 <ehird> Seriously, wow, fuck that shit, it's due to quantum?
19:21:46 <ehird> Fuuuuuuuuck that shit.
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19:22:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, wait, so it samples multiple times both when taking a 1/1000 exposure and when taking a 30 second one?
19:22:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't see how it can get enough light though for it
19:23:42 <nooga> i need source of good quailty random numbers for many machines
19:24:04 <pikhq> As an alternate explanation, I'm full of shit.
19:24:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, about the quantum noise too?
19:24:42 <pikhq> No, no. Just how good-quality cameras don't show that as much.
19:25:01 <pikhq> ... Good-quality. My English sucks today.
19:26:52 <nooga> the thing is that i need a noise that resembles natural noise in light transport ;p
19:27:46 <nooga> take a light source that emits uniform white light in every direction
19:28:17 <nooga> it emits photons in random directions and energies
19:28:32 <nooga> with random energies*
19:28:58 <nooga> i need to simulate that
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19:29:07 <nooga> and pseudo-random numbers give stupid patterns
19:29:14 <nooga> and all that shit looks unnatural
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19:29:31 <AnMaster> nooga, sounds like a bad PRNG there
19:30:16 <nooga> if you shoot like, uh, 3000 000 000 photons, every PRNG will give patterns
19:30:17 <AnMaster> nooga, try using that to create a seed. then using a good prng
19:30:37 <AnMaster> nooga, are you doing ray tracing with like 3000 000 000 photons?
19:31:03 <AnMaster> and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source
19:31:09 <nooga> yes, forward, physically based raytracing
19:31:16 <AnMaster> try that "one million random numbers" book
19:31:20 <AnMaster> nooga, that will be super-slow
19:31:28 <AnMaster> with that number of photons I mean
19:31:30 <nooga> my raytracer traces photons FROM the lights TO the sensor
19:31:39 <nooga> it's fucking damn slow
19:31:47 <AnMaster> nooga, and it will be nearly white?
19:32:12 <nooga> what will be nearly whitye?
19:33:13 <ehird> [19:31] AnMaster: and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source
19:33:20 <nooga> therefore i need a "supercomputer", i'd like to be able to distribute the process
19:33:34 <ehird> oh no, not this "LOL AUTOMATIC DISTRBUTE ACROSS ITNERWEB" from nooga
19:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked, there are limits on the web forms
19:34:07 <AnMaster> you can however send a special request it seems
19:34:12 <AnMaster> not sure what the size limit is then
19:34:13 <ehird> ...so use /dev/random
19:34:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that will be fast eh?
19:34:31 <ehird> raytracing "3000 000 000 photons"
19:34:35 <ehird> is going to be fast anyway
19:34:46 <nooga> ehird: stop blabbering, rendering is the easiest process to distribute: give each slave a source description and tell them: each one of you must trace n photons, collect results from the slaves
19:34:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but /dev/random will be slower
19:35:02 <ehird> nooga: over the internet. automatically.
19:35:13 <nooga> you've got scene rendered with n*(slave count) photons
19:35:30 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it could theoretically work over the Internet. ... As a BOINC app.
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19:35:47 <ehird> pikhq: Manually written.
19:35:47 <nooga> it would work as a boinc app
19:35:56 <nooga> OF COURSE MANUALLY WRITTEN!@
19:35:57 <ehird> pikhq: And way, way slower than gigabit ethernet.
19:35:58 <pikhq> Of course, that requires splitting it into autonomous processes.
19:36:02 <ehird> By hundreds of billions of years.
19:36:14 <ehird> pikhq: Tell that to nooga.
19:36:25 <nooga> i never thought that computer will magically turn my raytracer program into parallel system
19:36:36 <pikhq> And by the time you've got it split into autonomous processes, parallelism is kinda... Trivial.
19:37:06 <pikhq> "Few lines of shell" kinda trivial. :)
19:37:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc ray-tracing is extremely parallel
19:37:11 <ehird> vvvvvvvvvv18 people 18 people 18 people
19:37:21 <ehird> raytracing is embarrasginly parallel
19:37:34 <nooga> i understand all that
19:37:37 <AnMaster> but forward ray trace is kind of silly iirc
19:37:43 <ehird> unfortunately nobody has a shitload of processors :P
19:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, get a shitload of FPGAs
19:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: one fpga runs you about $100
19:38:09 <pikhq> ehird: Most people have shitloads of processors. It's called a "graphics card".
19:38:12 <nooga> AnMaster: but it gives results closest to a taking photo
19:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed it would be cheap!
19:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it's probably cheaper to buy a bunch of commodity systems.
19:38:36 <AnMaster> ehird, but even one FPGA can do better than a CPU.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Of course, to use that, you need to write it as a CUDA app.
19:38:45 <ehird> pikhq: or OpenCL, for ati
19:38:49 <ehird> well and nvidia too
19:38:55 <ehird> AnMaster: but the work of one ray-tracing atom is trivial
19:39:01 <ehird> you could do it at 10mhz, prolly
19:39:20 <AnMaster> ehird, there are FPGAs close to 100 MHz iirc?
19:39:31 <ehird> I'm saying you don't need speed.
19:39:38 <ehird> So whether the FPGAs are fast or not is irrelevant.
19:39:40 <pikhq> You just need parallelism.
19:39:47 <ehird> All you need is a shitload of processors of just about any speed.
19:40:04 <nooga> ehird: tbh, my program could run parallel even now. i'd need to distribute copies of it with a scene description and ask users to send results of rendering using some small numbers of photons to me and then add the results
19:40:22 <nooga> and i'd be faster than rendering on one machine
19:40:53 <pikhq> ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth?
19:41:18 <nooga> what i want to do is write a little utility that'd automatically send scene descriptions and collect the results
19:41:29 <nooga> AND THERE'S NO WORD ABOUT AUTOMATIC PARALLELISM
19:42:34 <pikhq> So, what you want to do is reïmplement BOINC.
19:42:50 <pikhq> That's dumb; BOINC's not hard to write for.
19:43:19 <pikhq> Well, except that it's C. :P
19:43:23 <nooga> but you have to make ppl join your project
19:43:38 <ehird> ...as opposed to computing without their consent
19:43:46 <ehird> So do you not ACTUALLY have these machines?
19:44:11 <nooga> i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses
19:44:23 <ehird> Congrats; you're an immoral asshole.
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19:44:34 <nooga> it's just an experiment
19:44:42 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth? <-- yep
19:44:42 <ehird> I want to strangle you. For being stupid, y'see.
19:44:50 -!- coppro has joined.
19:44:51 <ehird> Anyone care to join me?
19:44:55 <pikhq> nooga: That's called "botnet".
19:44:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, local caches and such is very important iirc
19:45:02 <nooga> pikhq: i know, and?
19:45:08 <pikhq> And yes, that makes you an immoral asshole.
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19:45:32 <ehird> nooga: I wish a thousand viruses upon your computer.
19:45:37 -!- fizzie has joined.
19:45:51 <AnMaster> I assume you are joking nooga?
19:45:58 <pikhq> nooga: I wish all the viruses upon your computer.
19:45:59 <ehird> AnMaster: has he ever joked about something so stupid? no
19:46:09 <ehird> I like how nooga thinks OS X can't possibly have any bugs.
19:46:26 <nooga> but there are not many viruses for os x
19:46:37 <ehird> I hope nooga does infect the computers; then I can get him arrested and we won't have to deal with him any more.
19:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, hm yeah a botnet is rather stupid
19:47:03 <nooga> nooga: i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses << tbh, firstly i'd ask several friends to help me
19:47:10 <ehird> He actually thinks that making a botnet out of computers near him to do the computation he wants to do is not immoral.
19:47:13 <nooga> or even some scientists on my university
19:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as you know by now, I tend to use "rather" before the adjectives like "stupid" and "silly"!
19:47:21 <nooga> we have cool clusters there
19:47:47 <ehird> AnMaster: <nooga> I just murdered someone <AnMaster> Hm, that's rather bad
19:48:09 <ehird> That's putting it too strongly
19:48:12 <ehird> He might get offended
19:48:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you think so? Maybe "not very nice" would be better?
19:48:42 <ehird> AnMaster: "Well, if you think you did the right thing..." might work
19:49:04 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was in self defence?
19:49:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes; I was probably trying to kill him for being an idiot.
19:49:40 <nooga> probably my botnet would fail because i don't know how to write malicious software
19:49:46 <nooga> especially for windows
19:50:00 <nooga> it's only athought
19:50:03 <ehird> And the only thing stopping me from murdering is that I'm weak.
19:50:09 <ehird> Yay fun moral system!
19:50:13 <nooga> if i were christian i could go to church and confess
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19:50:56 <nooga> your parser is broken sir
19:51:03 <AnMaster> err, isn't that only for Catholics or such?
19:51:19 <ehird> isn't poland like 99% catholic
19:51:36 <nooga> and i'm in that 1%
19:51:52 <AnMaster> so there are 99 other people in Poland then?
19:52:08 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Poland
19:52:12 <ehird> They actually poured water over ALL OF POLAND
19:52:35 <ehird> no, it's a SKY FLOOD
19:52:54 <nooga> what's with _why ?
19:53:07 <ehird> I dunno; I'll look into my crystal ball!
19:53:13 <ehird> Oh wait, it's a magic 8 wait I've said this before.
19:53:22 <nooga> the part before ';' would do
19:53:31 <AnMaster> didn't you ask yesterday nooga ?
19:53:54 <ehird> Zed Shaw posted to his blog calling _why Jonathan, which I made two posts rebutting. bah.
19:53:56 <nooga> AnMaster: maybe something changed
19:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: rich from you
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19:55:22 <AnMaster> ehird, googled idiom but can't find definition
19:55:43 <ehird> "You're a hypocrite", basically.
19:58:09 <nooga> try to google "why"
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19:59:08 <ehird> "why the lucky stiff".
20:06:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:07:33 <ehird> did you know that whitehouse.gov used to use lisp machines?
20:07:36 <ehird> not for the main site, but.
20:09:40 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20000301193429/www.pub.whitehouse.gov/WH/Publications/html/Publications.html
20:09:46 <ehird> pub.whitehouse.gov ran on one
20:10:41 <ehird> why heh, it's awesome :(
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20:11:06 <ehird> do you srsly question everything? i read it, i'm sure of it, end of
20:11:14 <ehird> i have no reason to lie
20:11:17 <ehird> google it if you care
20:11:26 <AnMaster> reliable source and all that ;P
20:11:43 <ehird> you assume that i give a shit if you believe me or not
20:11:53 <AnMaster> "(The LispM that served www.pub.whitehouse.gov sadly disappeared in january 2001 when Prez Bush replaced Prez Clinton)"
20:12:10 <ehird> hmm, apparently a high-end macivory lisp machine cost about $50,000 in 1991
20:12:37 <nooga> maybe it's time to reinvent lisp machines
20:12:53 <ehird> that's what i'm doing
20:13:02 <pikhq> ehird: So, I guess *that's* why Symbolics went out of business? Exceptionally expensive workstations? ;)
20:13:13 <ehird> nope, symbolics did fine
20:13:17 <ehird> but nobody wanted a lisp machine
20:13:33 <pikhq> ... At a time that people figured "Eh, x86 is good enough."
20:13:36 <ehird> besides, they still exist and sell things, albeit slowly :P
20:13:43 <ehird> pikhq: I'll tell you what happened
20:13:51 <ehird> The explosion of unix happened
20:13:52 <nooga> are there moderl lisp processors?
20:13:56 <pikhq> Dammit, Microsoft.
20:13:59 <ehird> nooga: no. not apart from fpgas
20:14:30 * pikhq would like a Haskell machine
20:14:32 <nooga> creating an industrial matrix for a processor is a bit expensive
20:15:00 <ehird> ASICs aren't woefully expensive
20:15:03 <ehird> if you have a market
20:15:08 <ehird> symbolics had their own fab, though
20:15:13 <ehird> god damn they had money
20:15:57 <pikhq> The fact that they actually *sold* any machines that cost $50,000 implies that they had money. ;)
20:16:12 <ehird> i just can't comprehend that they made their monitors themselves
20:16:23 <ehird> i think they basically relied on no other companies
20:16:27 <ehird> for anything important at least
20:16:33 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Symbolics-document-examiner.png / genera had very nice fonts
20:16:44 <ehird> the font in the Document Examiner window is really readable
20:16:46 <ehird> even when not anti-aliased
20:16:51 <AnMaster> I mean, they could have managed way better if they had relied on other companies
20:16:53 <ehird> AnMaster: but the displays were high-quality
20:16:54 <nooga> 1024 x 867 in 80's
20:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: and no, they couldn't have
20:17:00 <nooga> that was something
20:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, maybe I'm just wishful
20:17:21 <ehird> i mean, hardware was pretty crap in those days
20:17:29 <ehird> but if you bought a symbolics machine, you're done
20:17:29 <pikhq> ehird: That is a *much* better UI than you'd expect for the era.
20:17:36 <ehird> pikhq: it's pretty much system-wide emacs
20:17:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the font is readable because it avoids lines in directions that look bad
20:17:45 <ehird> it's a very well-designed font
20:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there are some issues in the bold italics bit
20:17:55 <ehird> that's not the same font
20:18:09 <ehird> AnMaster: remember that CRTs blur a bit, though
20:18:20 <ehird> (I wonder if you could hook up an LCD to a symbolics machine?)
20:18:40 <ehird> pikhq: but yes, the windowing system was great from what I hear
20:18:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I never got opengenera thingy working :/
20:18:54 <ehird> pikhq: I've read the boot up source of the OS
20:18:56 <AnMaster> I got it up to the enter site settings thing
20:18:56 <ehird> it's written in lisp
20:19:09 <AnMaster> ehird, but never got the site setting things to save properly
20:19:38 <nooga> ehird: where is that source?
20:19:52 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp
20:19:58 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
20:19:58 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
20:20:02 <ehird> dkschmidt is the remaining symbolics guy
20:20:26 <ehird> Symbolics were like Macs done right, I think
20:20:35 <ehird> You bought them and got everything you needed, extremely high quality
20:20:38 <ehird> and yet they were totally open
20:20:43 <ehird> you could modify the whole system
20:21:06 <pikhq> Because that's just Lisp for you.
20:21:35 <ehird> I hope asciilifeform open sources his FPGA flash disk card
20:21:37 <nooga> how much does a lisp machine cost nowadays?
20:21:43 <ehird> nooga: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
20:21:59 <ehird> nooga: don't get a macivory; they're macs with a lisp expansion board
20:22:04 <ehird> not nearly cool enough
20:22:14 <ehird> asciilifeform/loper os guy is getting a 3620
20:22:25 <ehird> nooga: MacIvory, they're Symbolics machines;
20:22:31 <ehird> basically mac + Lisp processor expansion board
20:22:33 <ehird> but that's uber-lam
20:22:39 <nooga> uhuh, i can imagine
20:22:47 <ehird> some info from the guy
20:22:48 <ehird> [[The machine is equipped with dual 380MB disks (each with full OS install) and 4 MWord of RAM. The manual rates the power supply for 1KW max draw / 400W typical. The latter is much the same as my desktop PC. Noise is not a concern: I do not intend to run it 24/7. I expect the power consumption to fall by ~100W after the flash disk is in.]]
20:24:46 <nooga> they had 64-bit word in 80's
20:25:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ok about heavy power suplies!
20:25:27 <ehird> 1KW is what really high end gaming PCs use, AnMaster
20:25:32 <nooga> ehird: because your parents pay the bills
20:25:34 <ehird> Lisp Machines use that at peak
20:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes; not all that many machines actually use 1KW, but there are some.
20:25:57 <ehird> Think triple graphics card + overclocked CPU
20:26:05 <ehird> (quad-core, naturally)
20:26:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was like 600W peak on high end power supplies?
20:26:29 <ehird> Most consumer power supplies are like 400W
20:26:32 <ehird> Most brand-name are like 700W
20:26:52 <pikhq> You can purchase 1KW, but they cost a bit.
20:27:15 <pikhq> And it's not unheard of to have a 2 power supply system. Just... rather rare.
20:27:38 <nooga> http://www.symbolics.com/ << what can I say, they have a pretty logo
20:27:42 <ehird> it's not at all uncommon
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20:28:02 <nooga> for a company that sells it's products for 50k
20:28:12 <ehird> when they were new
20:28:20 <ehird> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt are modern prices
20:28:22 <nooga> that's what i mean
20:28:35 <AnMaster> what about laptop power supplies?
20:28:44 <AnMaster> aren't they like 70 W or so? iirc?
20:28:47 <ehird> AnMaster: they're external
20:28:51 <ehird> laptops use very little power
20:29:01 <nooga> mac mini it 110W at peak AFAIR :D
20:29:08 <ehird> mac mini idles at 13watt
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that 17"+10" one? ;P
20:29:18 <ehird> AnMaster: like 34958734953489789794835793457watt
20:29:22 <ehird> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3468
20:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, my laptop idles at 8.6 W iirc
20:30:01 <AnMaster> around 9.1 W when disk is spinning
20:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, tested with powertop, not sure how accurate that is
20:30:26 <AnMaster> ehird, since it asks ACPI for the info
20:31:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you think it is high or low?
20:31:27 <AnMaster> ehird, was 20% brightness on display though
20:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I was basically just testing how low I could get it
20:32:07 <AnMaster> when in usable mode with wlan off, around 9.8W with disk spinning
20:32:32 <AnMaster> wlan causes a lot of wakeups when searching for networks if it isn't connected to any
20:34:09 <nooga> http://fun.noshit.pl/DIR-2009.08.20/fnp7.jpg << first exercise ;D
20:35:33 <AnMaster> nooga, you think we can read that?
20:35:55 <nooga> it's phonetic Polish for americans i suppose
20:35:57 <Deewiant> Asztal: Hey, why no asztal.net
20:37:15 <nooga> "Przepraszam, czy można przymierzyć?" is the first line lol
20:37:25 <nooga> deciphering that took me 2 minutes
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20:39:09 <ehird> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112003322&ft=1&f=1001 / wtf, I thought we stopped using physical objects to define units
20:40:55 <Deewiant> We did; turns out that the kilogram is tricky
20:41:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
20:42:01 <ehird> Also, nevermind is totally a word. Just ask Nirvana.
20:43:32 <nooga> wonder if wolframalpha knows
20:43:48 <pikhq> Why can't it be defined in terms of Planck units?
20:44:02 <pikhq> (aside from that being potentially absurdly hard to measure)
20:44:08 <ehird> `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck units
20:44:20 <pikhq> `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck mass
20:44:21 <ehird> <W|A> One bacon in planck times per meters minus squared
20:44:28 <HackEgo> 1 kilogram in planck mass \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 kg kilogram to Planck masses \ Result: \ \ 4.595 107 mP Planck masses \ Additional conversion: \ \ 1000 grams \ Interpretation: \ \ mass \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Weight w of a body from w 2.2 lbf pounds force 0.069 slugf slugs force 9.8 N newtons
20:44:34 <ehird> See, that was easy.
20:45:04 <nooga> but planck mass is defined using grams
20:45:10 <Slereah> `wolfram 1 yottaparsec in planck length
20:45:16 <HackEgo> 1 yottaparsec in planck length \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 Y yotta \ Result: \ \ pc parsec to Planck lengths \ \ 1.909 1075 lP Planck lengths \ Additional conversions: 37 \ \ 1.917 10 miles \ \ Interpretation: \ \ length \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Light travel time t in vacuum from t 3.264 1024 years
20:45:24 <nooga> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=planck+mass CTO
20:45:33 <nooga> where's definition using constants?
20:45:48 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_mass here
20:45:49 <ehird> from a guy who uses a 3620: "Most people will WANT to put the machine in a separate room. It is LOUD"
20:46:01 <Slereah> nooga : Planck mass is when the Schwartzchild radius and the compton wavelength are the same
20:46:03 <ehird> How loud is this thing xD
20:46:12 <pikhq> It is defined in terms of units defined such that G, h, c, 1/(4\pi\epsilon_0), and k_b are 1.
20:46:29 <Sgeo_> If I were more awake, I'd say something that ehird would take notice of.
20:46:56 * Sgeo_ has, next to him, his copy of The Age of Spiritual Machines
20:47:06 <pikhq> So, m_p = \sqrt{hc/G}
20:47:17 <ehird> Ah, Kurzweil's I-don't-wanna-die masterpiece.
20:47:25 <Slereah> It's something like 8 micrograms IIRC
20:47:35 <Slereah> `wolfram planck mass in gram
20:47:39 <Sgeo_> It has predictions for 2009
20:47:40 <ehird> Surely you want an updated version, where he amends the dates to be actually in the future, but still within his expected lifetime?
20:47:42 <HackEgo> planck mass in gram \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 mP Planck mass to grams \ Result: \ \ 2.176 10 \ \ 5 \ \ grams \ \ Additional conversions: \ \ 21.76 µg micrograms \ Comparisons as mass: \ \ 0.01 \ Interpretation: \ \ 1 69 \ \ mass of a typical mosquito \ \ 1 10 \ \ 6 \ \ kg \ \ mass \ Corresponding
20:47:43 <pikhq> Slereah: ~2*10^-8 kg.
20:47:58 <ehird> The last edition will predict that the singularity will happen tomorrow; the day after, he'll be dead.
20:48:34 <Sgeo_> As far as I'm conserned, there's nothing wrong with hoping he turns out to be right.
20:48:56 <ehird> There's nothing wrong with hoping that there's a God who loves us all and takes us to heaven and gives us eternal joy forever.
20:48:56 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yeah, but you admit it's a hope.
20:49:04 <ehird> It's still irrational.
20:49:17 <ehird> A better way to have hope is to actually work on making the world a better place.
20:49:20 <Sgeo_> ehird, I hope that too, even though I don't believe that there is.
20:49:30 <ehird> I hope that I will have a pony in three seconds.
20:50:09 <ehird> I wonder if symbolics hired a typographer to design their fonst
20:50:10 <nooga> ehird: get back to reinventing lisp machines
20:50:28 <Sgeo_> He did get some predictions right, or rightish >.>. But still, a lot were wrong
20:50:30 <nooga> even you could design bitmap font
20:50:39 <Sgeo_> Want me to post some of them?
20:50:40 <ehird> nooga: Fuck you, typography is awesome
20:50:57 <ehird> Sgeo_: uri geller has been right about some football games too
20:51:28 <pikhq> Something else that would be nice: just arbitrarily define the Avogadro constant. Voila, kilogram in terms of the mass of ^{12}C.
20:52:00 <Sgeo_> "People typically have at least a dozen computers on and around their bodies, which are networked using "body LANs (local area networks)."
20:52:17 <ehird> This is some new definition of "true".
20:52:31 <Sgeo_> ehird, I wasn't posting an example of what he got right.
20:52:34 <pikhq> That's not going to be common for another 5 to 10 years.
20:52:40 <ehird> pikhq: Why a dozen?
20:52:43 <ehird> We don't need a dozen.
20:52:53 <ehird> We don't need "body LANs"; we have the internet.
20:53:10 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Q0dfrbr10 nice one
20:53:23 <pikhq> ehird: Fair point.
20:53:34 <pikhq> Though a "body LAN" could carry TCP/IP, et viola.
20:53:38 <ehird> In fact, what he's talking about is 80s thinking.
20:53:41 <Sgeo_> He got this at least half-right: "Computers routinely include moving picture image cameras and are able to reliably identify their owners from their faces."
20:53:47 <ehird> You can't imagine a global network of everyone; that can't possibly work.
20:53:51 <ehird> Sgeo_: they cannot really do the latter
20:54:01 <ehird> pikhq: You can't imagine one all-powerful computer.
20:54:01 <Sgeo_> That's why I said half-right
20:54:05 <ehird> Of course we need specialised ones.
20:55:11 <Sgeo_> I'm going to be random about what I'm posting. They're generally going to either be somewhat right or so dead wrong it's hilarious.
20:55:16 <pikhq> Facial recognition is inherently heuristic (and therefore at least somewhat unreliable)...
20:56:00 <Sgeo_> "The majority of text is created using continuous speech recognition (CSR) dictation software, but keyboards are still used."
20:56:13 <ehird> I'm better at typing than speaking.
20:56:17 <ehird> More accurate, no trips, ...
20:56:31 <ehird> The extra speed of speech comes at a great cost.
20:56:41 <ehird> See, that sort of thinking is typical "future!".
20:56:45 <ehird> It's different, and we can't do it now.
20:56:50 <ehird> Therefore, it must be something that we will do in the future.
20:56:57 <ehird> Never is "maybe it's actually not better" considered.
20:57:00 * Sgeo_ doesn't want to try to imagine programming via CSR
20:57:49 <Sgeo_> My dad swears by it, though. >.>
20:57:56 <ehird> Is your dad a programmer?
20:58:30 <Sgeo_> The way he treats me sometimes, I'd think not.
20:58:53 <ehird> woo, dysfunctional families \o/
20:59:05 <Sgeo_> It's not like he's physically abusive, at least
20:59:24 <ehird> Well that's all right then
20:59:28 <Sgeo_> Or trying to stop me from going to college.. wait, actually, he kind of did in 2007
20:59:41 <ehird> "Durn kids and their, uhh education"
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20:59:57 <Sgeo_> He wanted me to go to college, just.. later, I think
21:00:05 <Sgeo_> After I went to Israel for a while
21:00:46 <Sgeo_> This family is Jewish. I don't consider myself Jewish religion-wise
21:01:07 <ehird> I rather think that with Israel's actions, it would do the opposite of making me Jewish
21:02:05 <Sgeo_> Apparently, there's some program in Israel that my dad and step-mom thought would help "make me normal" or something.
21:03:01 <ehird> Not an evil atheist or something? :P
21:03:06 <ehird> nooga: It's spelt with a z.
21:03:09 <ehird> But yes, zionism is stupid.
21:03:22 <Sgeo_> ehird, not that. They seem convinced that I couldn't live on my own, and had no responsibility.
21:03:36 <ehird> my mother thinks that :P
21:03:42 <ehird> (but she's probably right)
21:04:49 <ehird> "$10 in Pennies is worth $18.05 if you melt them down for the copper."
21:04:56 <ehird> ...do you think you could repeat this process?
21:05:09 <ehird> "That's not actually quite correct. $10 worth of 1909-1982 Lincoln copper pennies is worth $18.05 while $10 worth of 1982-2009 Lincoln zinc pennies is worth only $4.71. Thanks for the link though. +1"
21:05:10 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Y'know the way to fix that? Move out.
21:05:26 <ehird> i want to move out, it sounds like hella fun
21:05:43 <pikhq> ehird: It is. It is also a PITA.
21:05:50 <Sgeo_> pikhq, my dad has an apartment, but isn't letting me move there yet. He doesn't want the apartment ruined if I fail to clean.
21:06:09 <Sgeo_> I mentioned moving out on my own, and he said he'd cut off all support.
21:06:35 <ehird> Sgeo_: sounds like your family sucks
21:06:53 <nooga> get a well paid job in IT or something
21:07:01 <nooga> find a small apartament
21:07:05 <ehird> working in IT is hell
21:07:09 <ehird> from what i gather.
21:07:13 <ehird> on symbolics lisp machine: "The old systems have a special console. No VGA"
21:07:17 <nooga> buy food, pay rent and bills, party party party
21:07:29 <ehird> would be nice to hook up an lcd.
21:07:31 <nooga> ehird: working is hell
21:07:39 <ehird> nooga: but sometimes moreso than others
21:07:47 <pikhq> ehird: I work in IT.
21:07:54 <nooga> like, uh, porting MFC parts to OS X because someone orders you to do it
21:08:20 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but your job is awesome (sample size: 1)
21:08:28 <pikhq> ehird: Indeed, it is.
21:08:34 <ehird> AnMaster: analog and shit
21:08:40 <Sgeo_> I think I'm misunderstanding what MFC is. Isn't it the API provided by Windows for GUIs and stuff?
21:08:44 <Sgeo_> How do you port that?
21:08:48 <ehird> Sgeo_: For general stuff
21:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well and? There are VGA<->DVI adapters
21:08:53 <pikhq> You reimplement it.
21:08:58 <nooga> file support, strings, dates and such
21:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: brb, sytnthesizing a pony
21:09:03 <AnMaster> ehird, just may require some knowledge of what you are doing
21:09:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: DVI cables can carry VGA signals directly on the wire.
21:09:28 <nooga> i have all *.h files from MFC and i'm implementing the classes so that they comply their interfaces
21:09:35 <Sgeo_> Isn't there a thing to get WINE working in OS X?
21:09:35 <ehird> it seems Genera had no web browser
21:09:41 <ehird> Sgeo_: wine supports os x
21:09:49 <ehird> but he means iphone
21:09:57 <ehird> also objective c stuff too
21:09:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but I have seen converts to DVI-I or whatever it was called
21:10:00 <nooga> OS X is the first stage
21:10:08 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Until the x86 port of OS X, it was kinda useless without qemu, but yes.
21:10:09 <nooga> and then hopefully it would run on gayphone
21:10:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, ehird, so you basically figure out the electrical "protocol" of the analogue signal.
21:10:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nontrivial, but doable.
21:10:41 <nooga> ehird: get yourself an oscilloscope
21:10:44 <Sgeo_> Must be fun, knowing that you're duplicating WINE's efforts, just so you can have what's basically WINE on iPhone
21:10:50 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, shut up.
21:10:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed, then you build a digital circuit to convert it to a digital signal
21:11:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, there are A/D converters after all
21:11:13 <nooga> Sgeo_: ah, i'm reimplementing a minimal subset used by a specific library
21:11:13 <Sgeo_> Well, a subset of WINE on iPhone, then?
21:11:18 <AnMaster> then you process that to render a picture, and re-emit it using display-port
21:11:21 <pikhq> Sgeo_: MFC is a thick, thick wrapper on top of Win32.
21:11:24 <nooga> it's still simpler than reimplementing the library
21:11:29 <ehird> AnMaster: jesus christ shut up
21:11:52 <pikhq> Though by that notion, Qt is a thick, thick wrapper on top of X11. So... :P
21:11:53 <ehird> http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Machine%20Videos
21:12:04 <ehird> ^__________^ lisp machine videooooooos
21:12:13 <ehird> oh lame not actually vids
21:12:32 <ehird> such a pretty interface
21:12:35 <ehird> 1-bit at its finest
21:12:40 <nooga> screen capture on lispm?
21:12:54 <Sgeo_> I've never actually seen a Lisp machine before
21:12:57 <AnMaster> http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/genera.jpg <-- physical NMI? :D
21:15:25 <pikhq> Sgeo_: ZLisp Emacs.
21:17:39 <pikhq> ehird: Non-maskable interrupt.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you shouldn't be allowed to get a LISP machine. AND you are a hypocrite... who can't google
21:18:03 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
21:18:07 <ehird> national microelectronics institute
21:18:10 <ehird> national measurement institute
21:18:12 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi+computer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
21:18:20 <ehird> non-maskable interrupt
21:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, try adding the word "computer"
21:18:38 <ehird> but sure, I shouldn't be allowed tog et a lisp machine because i didn't know one term
21:18:39 <AnMaster> which gets non-maskable interrupt at top
21:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone geek should know NMI
21:19:16 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it
21:19:23 <ehird> so i'm not a geek by your definition, that's okay, i don't give a shit about what you think
21:19:29 <ehird> i'm such an ungeek who doesn't know one acronym!
21:19:55 <pikhq> ehird: Turn in your geek license.
21:20:06 <ehird> jesus fucking christ
21:20:06 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:20:13 <Sgeo_> "Computer displays built into eyeglasses are also used. These specialized glasses allow users to see the normal visual environment, while creating a virtual image that appears to hover in front of the viewer. The virtual images are created directly onto the user's retinas."
21:20:20 <pikhq> ... Ehird has no sense of humor.
21:21:16 <nooga> that Lisp Machines are so fucking über cool
21:22:59 <Sgeo_> "Translating Telephone technology (where you speak in English and your Japenese friend hears you in Japanese, and vice versa) is commonly used for many language pairs. It is a routine capability of an individual's personal computer, which also serves as her phone."
21:24:18 <nooga> then who was phone
21:25:11 <Sgeo_> nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
21:25:20 <nooga> AnMaster: ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it << ehird's plan is not to write kernel
21:25:37 <nooga> he wants a kernel without kernel
21:25:46 <AnMaster> but everyone that wrote an OS would know about interrupts
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21:29:19 <Sgeo_> o.O didn't realize ehird wasn't here
21:31:15 <ehird> "The total cost was around $750, including the PayPal surcharge. Note that the purchase also included a "New Type" keyboard."
21:32:14 <nooga> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Lasse-Rasinen/IMG_0716.JPG
21:33:45 <nooga> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Hannu-Koivistos-machines/symbolics-2-001.jpg < capacitors?
21:34:14 <ehird> it looks so different from a modern computer
21:35:37 * Sgeo_ re-watches Space Mutiny
21:36:16 <nooga> gui looks pretty clever on those films
21:37:27 <AnMaster> nooga, having to go through menu to move or resize window seems like a pain
21:37:34 <pikhq> ehird: "Turn in your geek license" is a joke, BTW.
21:37:49 <ehird> click, swipe, click
21:38:00 <nooga> AnMaster: oh, with minor changes it would be very usable
21:38:10 <ehird> minor changes? why?
21:38:21 <nooga> like adding title bars to windows
21:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird, err how did you open menu then
21:38:31 <nooga> or at least X buttons
21:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: right click
21:38:42 <pikhq> nooga... It's an Emacs-like interface.
21:38:51 <nooga> i liked vim better
21:38:54 <ehird> AnMaster: "click, swipe, click"
21:39:00 <ehird> menu, swipe, choose
21:39:02 <ehird> pikhq: it isn't tiling
21:39:06 <ehird> but it can float too
21:39:25 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) click to open menu, click to select resize, move mouse to where you want it to be resized, click to select that point
21:39:37 <ehird> plan 9 uses the same interface
21:39:40 <ehird> it is perfectly usable
21:39:52 <ehird> it's better since you can move and resize in one click
21:40:14 <ehird> AnMaster: choose resize, click at starting point, drag at end point
21:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, and very often I only want to move *or* resize
21:40:32 <ehird> so use tiling or patch the OS or STFU
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21:41:50 <Sgeo_> You know what strikes me as "It sounds cool, so it will be the future"? The idea of a 3d web.
21:42:02 <ehird> a very horrible idea
21:42:36 <Sgeo_> Things like SL are fun, but to force 3d to browse for information, and shopping? I see maybe utility for showing what a product might look like, but walking down a hall to shop?
21:42:48 <Sgeo_> There's a reason that SL has a very 2d Xstreet SL
21:43:00 <ehird> navigation is crap
21:43:05 <ehird> we have to in the physical world
21:43:08 <ehird> but hypertext is such a better model
21:43:15 <ehird> space shouldn't exist
21:43:29 <ehird> things are harder to get to because they just are, not for any reason
21:45:03 <Sgeo_> Come to think of it, it would be on the same level as fighting monsters that guard the information you want. It's extending entertainment in such a way that it blocks productive use.
21:45:06 <AnMaster> I can think of some reasons why 3D is a bad idea
21:45:17 <ehird> you and everyone else
21:45:30 <AnMaster> just think of a 3D game, and a 2D game. Which is easiest to keep track of where you are in
21:45:47 <ehird> 2d is just as bad.
21:45:50 <AnMaster> more than once in a third person shooter style game I managed to loose what direction I was looking in
21:46:03 <AnMaster> ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things
21:46:11 <ehird> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES
21:46:19 <AnMaster> in 3D things are hidden behind other stuff
21:46:28 <ehird> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES
21:46:43 <AnMaster> I was just using it as an analogy
21:46:55 <Sgeo_> A 3d web is like taking a game and forcing people who want information to play it.
21:46:56 <ehird> the whole point is that games are a bad analogy
21:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no, about "hidden behind" I'm talking about navigation
21:47:04 <AnMaster> not talking about games at all
21:48:23 <AnMaster> ehird, in a 2D web page, all things are at one layer by default. Sure you can add image over text. Tends to be a sign of bad CSS in most cases. And image below text, which can be more ok (background image). But still fairly limited to a few layers
21:48:31 <AnMaster> while this is not true for a 3D web
21:48:33 <ehird> jkldfjlkdsfjkdslfjkldsf you are missing the point _entirely_
21:48:45 <AnMaster> where things are intrinsically behind each other
21:48:47 <ehird> hypertext, while rendered to be 2d, is fundamentally different from a 2d game
21:48:53 <ehird> Sgeo_: please try and explain to him
21:49:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm no longer talking about games
21:49:20 <ehird> you're either being purposefully dense or are dense
21:49:25 <AnMaster> the last line I talked about game was "<AnMaster> ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things"
21:49:31 <AnMaster> after that I left the game analogy
21:49:46 <ehird> the whole point is your model
21:50:00 <Sgeo_> I think we were considering more of the problem of navigation than rendering
21:50:17 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I'm considering navigating in a 3D web page.
21:50:31 <ehird> Sgeo_: he doesn't understand that how you navigate isn't just about the dimensions
21:50:39 <AnMaster> navigation is made hard, if you can't see where things are
21:50:41 <ehird> whereas we were talking about 0-distance hypertext vs 2d/3d navigable space
21:50:48 <ehird> also he's on some sort of tirade about hiding
21:51:20 <AnMaster> hypertext isn't zero distance unless your mouse happens to be in the right place
21:51:31 <Sgeo_> Actually, I think the Worlds.com model would sort of, kind of, suckily, work
21:52:01 <Sgeo_> Worlds can define a sort of 2d panel of links. Check out the lower-right
21:52:02 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WorldsPlayer.PNG
21:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT IS NOT WHAT DISTANCE IN SPACE MEANS
21:52:26 <ehird> oh my god, AnMaster is so idiotic i can't even believe
21:52:42 <ehird> Sgeo_: "the Wikipedia"
21:52:42 <Sgeo_> Of course, disseminating information in a 3d web is kind of insane, and a 3d web is still pointless except for the coolness factor
21:53:03 <Sgeo_> ehird, I hope that was a typo on my part
21:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you have an issue, mixing up "idiotic" and "lacking knowledge of the terms used"
21:54:55 <ehird> no, if you read what Sgeo_ said, it was very obvious
21:55:14 <ehird> maybe you're even intelligent inside your head, but your communication model is certainly one of the stupidest things i've ever interacted with
21:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no problems talking to most other people, either in here or elsewhere
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess our models are just non-compatible
21:56:55 <ehird> you had a problem talking to Sgeo_
21:57:01 <ehird> since you completely misunderstood what he meant
21:57:08 <ehird> whereas i only have a problem with you
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ehird, only when said person is interacting with you
21:57:18 <ehird> Sgeo_: hear that? talking with me makes you stupid.
21:57:24 <ehird> it's quantum transferodynamic.
21:57:27 <AnMaster> so I guess you force a certain mode.
21:57:46 <AnMaster> my laptop has a 65W external PSU
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21:58:28 <ehird> I force a certain mode!
21:58:37 <ehird> Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic.
21:59:03 <ehird> hmm apparently $100,000 was the most expensive symbolics system
22:02:04 <ehird> [[Like everyone outside the US, I was grossly overcharged by Symbolics UK (some $40,000 per annum in maintenance charges alone).
22:02:04 <ehird> Read more: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/how_to_get.html#ixzz0Ol8aLpJ]]
22:02:10 <ehird> that stupid read more script
22:02:48 <ehird> when i copied it that link appeared.
22:02:56 <ehird> and also sent off the snippet i copied to a server
22:03:13 <ehird> it's a new company
22:03:17 <ehird> almost enough to disable js
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22:10:53 <ehird> "I am designing a VGA+PS/2 keyboard/mouse box to replace the console."
22:14:14 <ehird> "Note: LISP Machines themselves are Y2K compliant, for if ever your date overflows from fixnum format, the hardware will automatically use bignum instead, transparently for the user"
22:14:18 <ehird> god, i love lispms
22:15:16 <pikhq> God, that's awesome.
22:15:56 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc some system clock issue still
22:16:51 <ehird> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg
22:16:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic. <-- I never claimed "idiotic". Just temporarily incompatible with either my communication model or ehird's (pikhq often falls in this category)
22:16:55 <ehird> Control in the bottom row
22:17:07 <ehird> Proving that the caps lock remappers are stupid!
22:17:14 <ehird> Control in the bottom row ftw!
22:17:34 <ehird> AnMaster: many people swap caps lock and control, supposedly to be more ergonomic
22:17:37 <ehird> These people know nothing about ergonomics.
22:17:42 <ehird> They hate their pinkies with a fiery passion.
22:17:48 <pikhq> I have Caps Lock as another control.
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22:17:59 <AnMaster> ehird, are you sure that keyboard you linked is ergonomic though?
22:18:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Not globally
22:18:12 <ehird> But control being there is MORE ergonomic
22:18:17 <ehird> than where capslock would be
22:18:30 <pikhq> Also, what sort of freaky hands do you have that makes *anything* where Ctrl is ergonomic?
22:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I want one with åäö as well
22:18:42 <ehird> pikhq: MORE ergonomic.
22:18:49 <ehird> But look at the lisp machine keyboard; it has control right next to spacebar.
22:18:52 <ehird> *That* is perfect.
22:18:58 <ehird> That's where command is on Apple keyboards
22:19:01 <ehird> and it works brilliantly
22:19:14 <AnMaster> that is under the middle of my palm
22:19:25 <AnMaster> while about tab would be good for ctrl for my hands
22:19:32 <ehird> well, your hands are too big
22:19:40 <pikhq> Yeah, that is under my palm as well.
22:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it is you who have small hands
22:19:56 <pikhq> My thumb has to curl in almost entirely to hit that.
22:19:57 <ehird> evidently steve jobs has small hands too.
22:19:58 <AnMaster> caps lock as ctrl would be nice
22:20:12 <pikhq> And the current Ctrl, well...
22:20:17 <ehird> no, I mean in general
22:20:21 <ehird> there is no way it can be ergonomic
22:20:26 <pikhq> My finger almost comes out of its socket hitting the normal control.
22:20:36 <ehird> (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / square, circle and triangle; where's the x? how are they going to make a playstation emulator?!)
22:20:55 <AnMaster> current ctrl is nice when you go for ctrl-h or so
22:21:04 <AnMaster> but caps lock would work fine then too
22:21:14 <Sgeo_> Is purl.org unlikely to die anytime soon?
22:21:18 <pikhq> keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
22:21:21 <Sgeo_> Also, I lost my PURL password
22:21:42 <ehird> purl.org dying is very unlikely.
22:21:45 <pikhq> ehird: Ctrl as caps lock is the only option that doesn't almost make my finger go out of its socket.
22:21:50 <pikhq> I'm going to claim that as ergonomic.
22:22:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh. keysym Caps_Lock = Caps_Lock?
22:22:47 <pikhq> xmodmap -e xmodmaprc
22:23:04 <AnMaster> xmodmap: unknown command on line commandline:1
22:23:12 <Sgeo_> I used PURL once, but the place it linked to is gone, and I can't log in :(
22:23:25 <Sgeo_> Also, can I use a PURL address for openID purposes?
22:23:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't the right file ~/.xmodmaprc iirc?
22:23:54 <Sgeo_> Make, say, /NET/sgeo/openid link to an HTML page that does whatever OpenID stuff is needed?
22:24:17 <ehird> Sgeo_: But just direct it directly to your openid provider.
22:24:25 <Sgeo_> ehird, 302s work that way?
22:24:38 <ehird> Sgeo_: If they don't work that way, then directing it to an html page is useless
22:24:41 <ehird> as it'd only work as long as the html page
22:24:46 <ehird> thus defeating the point of a purl
22:24:51 <AnMaster> xmodmap: /home/arvid/.xmodmaprc:1: bad keysym target keysym 'Caps_Lock', no corresponding keycodes
22:24:51 <AnMaster> xmodmap: 1 error encountered, aborting.
22:25:18 <AnMaster> and it still does damn caps lock function
22:25:26 <AnMaster> well, tell me what is wrong pikhq!
22:25:32 <Sgeo_> Yay, I remember my PURL password!
22:25:35 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/KanjiTablet1.jpeg ; symbolics kanji keyboard
22:25:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: btw, most people use /net/, not /NET/
22:26:12 <ehird> Sgeo_: What I'd do is, have http://purl.org/net/sgeo
22:26:24 <ehird> Point this at an HTML page with the openid meta tags pointing to whatever provider
22:26:29 <ehird> as well as a home page if you want
22:26:35 <ehird> i.e., don't have a separate openid page
22:26:37 <Sgeo_> I can't just point it to the provider?
22:26:38 <ehird> since the openid is "you"
22:26:53 <ehird> having a separate openid page is technically fine, but kinda misses the point
22:27:00 <ehird> plus, http://purl.org/net/sgeo is shorter :P
22:27:11 <Sgeo_> I think I'm just going to point it to the provider for now
22:27:26 <ehird> sure, point is that it can represent non-openid too
22:28:10 <ehird> monitor electronics, our own laser-printer electronics, we wrote
22:28:10 <ehird> the microcode, we wrote the operating system, and so on, but making
22:28:10 <ehird> our own keys was, finally, below the level of abstraction that demarked
22:28:11 <ehird> our build/buy line. We were really, really crazy, but we were not
22:28:11 <ehird> really, really, really, really crazy."
22:31:33 <AnMaster> xmodmap just doesn't work at all
22:31:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, might be interesting to know
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22:34:36 <oerjan> <AnMaster> or why else would he quit the computer?
22:34:48 <oerjan> mainly because i was going to take the bus afterwards
22:35:43 <oerjan> and i've had the bad luck before of going into the shower without turning off the computer, coming back to catch up on irc, and missing the bus :/D
22:37:12 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ...he has a water proof computer!
22:37:22 <oerjan> logic is a marvelous thing, isn't it :)
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22:45:10 <Sgeo_> ehird, when I try using Purl, the sites still say that my identity is the underlying provider
22:45:28 <ehird> Sgeo_: but they'll identify you by the purl url, no?
22:45:35 <ehird> Therefore if you change the purl location, you can still login.
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22:45:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, seems to me that they'd identify me by the provider
22:46:10 <ehird> Sgeo_: Well, try it and see.
22:46:16 <ehird> Log in as your purl, change your purl to another provider, try again.
22:46:22 <Sgeo_> Not now, I have other stuff to deal with
22:46:29 <ehird> Sgeo_: Create another purl to do it if you want to avoid breaking things.
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23:52:07 <ehird> there should be spoons that close up once you put something on them then open when they reach your mouth. my hands are shaking :P
23:52:25 <kwertii> ehird: I believe those are called "tongs"
23:52:43 <pikhq> Grog. There's a charity that was founded to provide free healthcare to third world countries. Said charity is providing healthcare in the US.
23:52:50 <pikhq> ... Because we need it more than they do.
23:52:57 <kwertii> "Marge... do we have any of those things that you use to... dig.... food....?"
23:53:31 <ehird> pikhq: It's entirely possible your healthcare system is worse :P
23:53:39 <ehird> kwertii: shaddap you
23:54:08 <pikhq> ehird: In poorer regions, our life expectancy is about on par with Bosnia.
23:54:33 <ehird> <USA> Lucky Bosnia!
23:54:38 <kwertii> Cuba's overall life expectancy is higher than the US
23:54:57 <pikhq> kwertii: And their healthcare system is a bit better.
23:55:09 <kwertii> pikhq: US healthcare is the best in the world.... if you're rich
23:55:35 <pikhq> "Rich" as in "can pay for it all yourself, no insurance needed".
23:55:58 <ehird> Republicans don't seem to realise that if they want their granny not to be brutally murdered by a death panel (I mean, assuming that would happen, which it wouldn't) they could just do what they're doing now and pay for it...
23:56:11 <kwertii> and yet poor people are going out to heckle congressional representatives on behalf of the insurance companies *sighs*
23:56:22 <ehird> Unless they're okay with their grannies dying as long as a "death panel" wasn't involved :P
23:57:17 <kwertii> "death panel" is one of their linguists' contrivances (like "death tax" and "tax relief") to push their agenda subtly even when opponents talk by the inherent framing of the debate in those terms. (cf. Don't Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff)
23:57:57 <ehird> I'm just in awe that the republicans don't understand that it's not mandatory
23:57:59 <kwertii> and I have to say, the Democrats really, really suck at that sort of thing. They control both houses of Congress and have the most popular president in 40 years, and they *still* can't get healthcare reform passed.
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23:58:26 <kwertii> ehird: they understand perfectly well at the higher levels. the rank-and-file are stupid and easily manipulable
23:58:30 <ehird> they're not even trying to push the best model - single payer health care
23:58:36 <ehird> the reform they want is a total compromise
23:59:31 <kwertii> ehird: http://incredimazing.com/static/media/2009/08/19/Itawb/itawb.jpg
23:59:53 <ehird> remind me why people like the US :-P
00:00:12 <kwertii> ehird: really, I like it here. it's my country, after all.
00:00:19 <kwertii> ehird: not _everyone_ is a fat idiot
00:00:22 <ehird> that sentence reeks of patriotism
00:00:46 <ehird> I have never understood the fetishization of an accident of geography...
00:00:53 <kwertii> it's not just geography, it's the culture too
00:01:07 <ehird> I guess I find it very hard to comprehend the culture being good
00:01:17 <kwertii> have you ever been here for an extended period of time?
00:01:33 <kwertii> well.. then obviously you won't understand the culture :)
00:01:48 <ehird> I don't think that's true. I have a basic grasp on some other countries' culture.
00:01:56 <kwertii> watching Hollywood movies does not make one an expert on American culture, despite what 80% of Europeans seem to think
00:02:04 <ehird> "80% of Europeans"
00:02:11 <ehird> have you considered how hypocritical you just were there?
00:02:22 <ehird> I haven't met a single person who would claim that
00:02:27 <kwertii> no. I've been to Europe for an extended time, interacted with many Europeans, and learned the culture
00:02:44 <ehird> then you must have gone to bizarro europe
00:02:46 <kwertii> ok, fine, I was exaggerating for effect with the "80%" figure
00:03:23 <ehird> is that linked to euopean...ity? I'd say it's more idiocy.
00:03:26 <ehird> Many people, indeed, are idiots
00:03:35 <kwertii> well, many people are idiots everywhere, in any country
00:04:07 <kwertii> and European idiots tend to think that listening to a Nirvana album and seeing the entire "Die Hard" series makes them an expert on American culture
00:04:41 <ehird> Are you a farmer? Because you sure do have a lot of strawmen
00:05:01 <ehird> dayum that was good
00:05:38 <kwertii> good cultural point: Americans are generally much more egalitarian and less snotty than Europeans
00:05:51 <kwertii> (obviously making gross generalizations)
00:06:05 <ehird> pikhq: is this your impression?
00:06:08 <ehird> I've never heard that before
00:06:32 <ehird> I mean, for chrissakes, the predominant culture in the US is "Yay freedom, guns, liberty, fuck everyone else, capitalism!"
00:06:41 <pikhq> My impression is that Americans are generally much more antiïntellectual than Europeans.
00:06:50 <kwertii> ehird: that is emphatically *not* the "predominant culture" in the US. come visit sometime.
00:06:57 <ehird> (and you can dispute this, but unless there's some sort of global web filter distorting EVERYTHING coming from the US on the internet, you're wrong)
00:07:08 <pikhq> kwertii: Where did you live in the US?
00:07:24 <pikhq> Or, rather, do live.
00:07:27 <kwertii> pikhq: for extended times in Pennsylvania, Florida, and California, and I've visited many other places
00:07:49 <ehird> i don't deny that a lot of american people are fine
00:07:54 <ehird> that's true for every country
00:08:01 <ehird> i mean for people that actually have opinions on it
00:08:03 <pikhq> Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, with some time in Massachussets.
00:08:20 <kwertii> ehird: I think the anti-intellectualism is a broad Anglo-Saxon thing. English people are also markedly anti-intellectual relative to others.
00:08:31 <ehird> The English culture is self-loathing.
00:08:44 <ehird> It sucks, but what can you do.
00:08:51 <ehird> England doesn't really count as European, politically.
00:08:51 <pikhq> ehird: Exception, BNP.
00:09:00 <ehird> pikhq: That's self-loathing too.
00:09:05 <kwertii> ehird: the Engish perception of an average professor is (description quoted from an actual Englishman) "an awkward fellow with a stack of books and soup on his tie who can't carry on a normal conversation"
00:09:15 <pikhq> Seems more like general loathing.
00:09:25 <kwertii> ehird: so no fair calling out Americans as anti-intellectual :P
00:09:27 <ehird> When I talk about European culture, I don't really include the UK
00:09:32 <ehird> and I don't like this place
00:09:41 <ehird> pikhq: Loathing is not a simple emotion of rage and hate, oh no.
00:10:29 <pikhq> The UK seems less crazy than the US.
00:10:46 <pikhq> ... In much the same way that Mormons seem less crazy than Scientologists.
00:10:47 <ehird> The self-loathing is sort of like a seething, dripping putrid liquid from the crevices of our darkest points, gradually strangling and restricting the blood flow of our brain in its ignoramus hold, destroying our thoughts and gradually leading to complete hopelessness that can't face the impending total oblivion it faces.
00:10:55 <ehird> It truly is an amazing thing.
00:11:16 <ehird> (although, of course, you won't find it on the streets, etc; because there isn't really any general culture; but if we only include interpretations that lead there to be one, this would be it)
00:11:17 <kwertii> ehird: wow, you must love H. P. Lovecraft
00:11:34 <ehird> kwertii: haha, i haven't read much of his stuff but i do like what i've read a lot
00:11:55 <pikhq> "Rush Limbaugh, I got billed $6,000 just to have a broken arm set." "Well, you shouldn't have broken your arm, should you?"
00:12:23 <kwertii> I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Rush Limbaugh is considered a far-right wing extremist by the vast majority of the population of the US.
00:12:48 <ehird> This is some new definition of vast majority of which I was not previously aware.
00:12:53 <ehird> Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area?
00:13:01 <pikhq> kwertii: I would like to take this opportunity to point out that about 20% of the US population is far-right wing extremists.
00:13:57 <kwertii> ehird: I live in San Francisco, which is far-left by US standards (which brings its own set of problems, such as the nauseating fetishization of identity politics), but I lived in the deep south (Florida) and the industrial northeast (Pennsylvania) for long periods of time too
00:14:08 <ehird> far right wing extremists... don't you guys call that the republican party :)
00:14:16 <kwertii> pikhq: 20% sounds about right. 80% counts as "vast majority".
00:14:33 <ehird> 80% is a large majority
00:14:38 <pikhq> ehird: About 24% of Americans identify as "Republican", and 30% as "independent".
00:14:43 <ehird> 90%/10% is a vast majority
00:15:11 <pikhq> This doesn't show up in *voting* because we have truly terrible voter turnout.
00:15:16 <kwertii> ehird: there are 2 broad factions in the Republican party, the "gun nut / religious right" and the "business elite Rudy Giuliani types". they don't like each other, but they worked together for a long time until recently.
00:15:21 <pikhq> Less than 50%, generally.
00:15:24 <ehird> kwertii: yeah but they both suck :)
00:15:30 <kwertii> ehird: the business ones are not nearly as crazy
00:15:40 <ehird> Right wing economics is scary.
00:15:46 <ehird> It has far-reaching social implications.
00:15:56 <kwertii> ehird: for example, the business types couldn't care less if you're gay or whether you go to church
00:16:16 <ehird> consider, though, health care
00:16:17 <pikhq> They just think Ayn Rand had the right idea.
00:16:24 <ehird> a "free market" position has a LOT of effects
00:16:30 <kwertii> ehird: agree, I think both of them have a bad take on healthcare
00:16:35 <ehird> Someone dying is irreversible
00:16:40 <ehird> Two people not being able to marry can happen later
00:16:50 <ehird> it's all a matter of perspective
00:17:27 <kwertii> ehird: the thing is.. most of them aren't bad people on a personal level. they just literally don't realize that not everyone is rich. they genuinely believe that if you go get a job and work hard, you'll wind up rich (because they did / their dad did / their grandfather did), so they assume that it will work out like that for everyone
00:17:53 <ehird> I've always wondered how people class others, if not by their political positions: that which literally defines how they view the world.
00:18:03 <ehird> Perhaps not bad, but stupid at least.
00:18:13 <oklokok> so people are only right-wing because they are stupid?
00:18:18 <kwertii> ehird: many are very intelligent, they were just raised in an insulated world and they lack perspective
00:18:24 <ehird> oklokok: sounds about right
00:18:36 <ehird> I've never heard a right-winger actually defend their position properly logically
00:18:48 <ehird> kwertii: but a rational person would not generalise from such a small sample.
00:18:51 <oklokok> if you're rich and only care about yourself, it's the most sensible way to go
00:19:03 <oklokok> i guess that's the "bad people" minority
00:19:10 <kwertii> ehird: I have met ones that can logically defend their position. those are the genuinely scary ones.
00:19:10 <ehird> oklokok: yes, and when the rest of society holding you up collapses, you fall to the curb
00:19:18 <ehird> right-wing politics are in nobody's interests
00:19:29 <ehird> kwertii: are you sure they didn't hypnotise you? :)
00:19:34 <kwertii> ehird: haha. yes, I'm sure
00:19:42 <pikhq> ehird: They're in plenty of people's interests.
00:19:50 <ehird> pikhq: not ultimately
00:20:03 <ehird> right-wing politics, at the end, lead to the collapse of the non-elite, and the elite RELIES on them to exist
00:20:07 <oklokok> ehird: if you had an eternal life, then probably not
00:20:11 <ehird> long-term, it's in nobody's interest
00:20:19 <pikhq> ehird: Short-term interests, I should say.
00:20:24 <oklokok> but if you're say 50, right is the way to go
00:20:31 <oklokok> ...assuming you only care about yourself and are rich
00:20:32 <pikhq> The long-term result is, of course, the dark ages.
00:20:33 <ehird> oklokok: unless you have any sort of sense of ethics, for instance
00:20:48 <ehird> plus, look at the meltdown!
00:20:53 <ehird> the people who caused this are still alive
00:20:57 <oklokok> ehird: right, i was assuming you don't
00:20:59 <ehird> although it hasn't hit the elite yet
00:21:05 <pikhq> ehird: I think it clear that they have no ethics.
00:21:32 <ehird> i wonder why nobody seems to like direct democracy
00:22:01 <kwertii> ehird: because most people are stupid. direct democracy is a HORRIBLE idea. just look at the state of California today for a case study.
00:22:16 <ehird> kwertii: People being stupid is a problem with democracy in general.
00:22:28 <kwertii> ehird: yes, and it's somewhat mitigated through the representation process
00:22:31 <ehird> But if most people want gay marriage to be illegal, the right thing to happen as far as the state is concerned is for it to be illegal.
00:22:39 <pikhq> ehird: I would support a benevolent dictatorship, if there were such a thing as a benevolent dictator.
00:22:48 <ehird> indirect democracy is partly a dictatorship
00:22:52 <kwertii> ehird: most people in California voted for no gay marriage. the pro-gay marriage side won't accept that
00:22:55 <ehird> the whole point of democracy is that the people decide what happens to them
00:23:12 <pikhq> kwertii: The Mormon church is to blame for that.
00:23:38 <ehird> (why are churches tax-free?)
00:24:04 <pikhq> And it's currently getting opposed as being against the US constitution.
00:24:40 <kwertii> ehird: CA has an extensive direct referendum system. we get at *least* 15 direct referendums for laws every year, often more. so the left proposes massive govt spending and everyone says "Yes!!! subsidies for this and that!!!" and then the right proposes massive tax cuts and everyone says "yes!! I want to pay less taxes!! who doesn't??" (because most people are stupid and inconsistent), and as a result California is bankrupt.
00:25:05 <ehird> kwertii: if you oppose the people being able to fuck themselves over, you oppose democracy
00:25:13 <kwertii> pikhq: I wish people would spend HALF as much time on Prop 13 as they are on Prop 8.
00:25:31 <kwertii> ehird: I oppose direct democracy. I am in favor of representative democracy.
00:25:42 <ehird> representative democracy isn't democracy, though
00:25:51 <kwertii> ehird: eh, semantics. call it whatever you want.
00:26:10 <ehird> am i insane for only wanting to call things democratic that are?
00:26:13 <kwertii> then I'm in favor of a republican (note small-r) system
00:26:24 <pikhq> Y'know what? All government sucks.
00:26:31 <ehird> pikhq: I'm an anarchist in theory. :P
00:26:33 <pikhq> Bring on the singularity.
00:26:48 <kwertii> anarchy would be great ... for about a week, until someone beats your head in with a brick over a loaf of bread
00:26:49 <ehird> You know, most singularity proponents favour the singularity being benevolent dictator of the universe.
00:26:50 <oklokok> the world is too complicated
00:26:59 <ehird> kwertii: people can do that with laws, too
00:27:13 <kwertii> ehird: but they stand a very good chance of being arrested and imprisoned, which deters it most of the time.
00:27:48 <pikhq> I think the bigger problem with anarchy is not individuals who would go out and do crazy shit, but with corporations doing so.
00:27:53 <ehird> i'm uncomfortable with the idea that most people are evil and only don't murder 16:28:00 <ehird> it's like religious people who say
00:28:10 <ehird> "atheists can't have any morals, because they don't have a bible to tell them"
00:28:17 <kwertii> pikhq: exactly.. any anarchy would quickly develop street gangs and mafias that would take over.. until one eliminated all the others and renamed itself "the government"
00:28:27 <pikhq> Because corporations actually are evil and only don't murder people because there's the threat of huge fines.
00:28:32 <kwertii> ehird: maybe not most people, but at least some people
00:28:32 <ehird> yeah, that's the thing; anarchy inevitably leads to government
00:28:45 <ehird> since there's no such thing as a de jure govt
00:28:47 <ehird> just a de facto one
00:29:09 <kwertii> a "government" is just a monopoly on the use of force
00:29:18 <kwertii> *the legitimate use of force
00:29:26 <pikhq> kwertii: That's a property, not a definition.
00:29:34 <kwertii> pikhq: that's my definition
00:29:50 <pikhq> A government is a *nomic* with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
00:29:57 <pikhq> There's a definition.
00:30:04 <kwertii> pikhq: the nomic part isn't necessary
00:30:17 <kwertii> nomic implies that every participant has, or at least once had, a means to influence the system
00:30:36 <pikhq> Nomic implies that there is a means to influence the system.
00:30:48 <kwertii> there isn't necessarily such a means
00:30:52 <pikhq> You must not be familiar with emperor nomic. ;)
00:31:20 <kwertii> it is possible to characterize a government as a nomic, sure, but I'd say that's a property and not a definition ;)
00:31:26 <pikhq> (nomic by benevolent dictator)
00:32:09 <kwertii> that's a rather trivial sense of the word "nomic" then
00:32:18 <oerjan> imperial nomic looked fun
00:32:50 <pikhq> A nomic is a system of rules that have rules for their modification.
00:33:40 <kwertii> pikhq: yeah, I know what it is. A govt does not necessarily meet that definition. and if it did, that would be incidental to its own definition
00:33:46 <oerjan> kwertii: i hear california has a balanced budget requirement - what if that was extended to _each_ popular referendum...
00:34:11 <kwertii> oerjan: that would be a step in the right direction.. I'd support it
00:34:16 <pikhq> kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition.
00:34:28 <oerjan> so you couldn't make a subsidy without also raising taxes simultaneously, or something like that
00:34:46 <kwertii> oerjan: another problem is that (unlike most states) budgets must be passed by a 2/3rds majority in the legislature (rather than a simple majority), which allows extremists from either party to halt the process
00:35:11 <oerjan> kwertii: oh, not just those which increase taxes?
00:35:17 <kwertii> pikhq: any authoritarian govt where changes are made arbitrarily without rules
00:35:33 <kwertii> oerjan: every single year the yearly budget must be passed by a 2/3rds majority
00:35:43 <pikhq> But there's rules governing how they may make rules. Said rules are, of course, trivial.
00:35:53 <pikhq> That is a very simple nomic.
00:35:54 <kwertii> pikhq: haha. that doesn't count as a rule
00:36:04 <kwertii> "The rule is: there are no rules"
00:36:18 <pikhq> That's anarchy, not nomic.
00:36:25 <kwertii> pikhq: and in any case, that would be a *description* of a government rather than a definition of it
00:36:31 <oerjan> kwertii: oh well. either california solves the problem, or it collapses and _then_ solves the problem.
00:36:43 <kwertii> oerjan: :( maybe I'll move to New York
00:36:50 <pikhq> kwertii: It's a formalism for defining a government, actually. ;)
00:37:07 <kwertii> pikhq: formalisms are just that, formalisms. models. they are not identical to the thing itself. they're models of it.
00:37:25 <pikhq> oerjan: Care to take this one?
00:37:40 * pikhq tags out, lets the mathematician have fun
00:37:41 <oerjan> <pikhq> kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition.
00:37:41 <oklokok> politics is such a useless subject
00:37:53 <kwertii> pikhq: /me philosopher > mathematician ;)
00:38:14 <oerjan> i recall the vatican state is still absolutist monarchist, so no rules the pope cannot change at least
00:38:31 <pikhq> kwertii: Not greater. Philosophy and math just have a common subset.
00:38:39 <kwertii> pikhq: mathematics is just applied philosophy
00:39:00 <oklokok> pikhq: i think he meant he's more a philosopher than he's a mathematician
00:39:03 <kwertii> pikhq: that being why you get a.... PhD (philosophiae doctor) degree
00:39:38 <pikhq> kwertii: Philosophy is just math with crappy axioms. :P
00:39:56 <oklokok> pikhq tags out, lets the mathematician have fun <<< ah i read mathematician*s*, thought pikhq thought kwertii was one, yeah nm me
00:40:06 <kwertii> pikhq: Math is a game with rules and no goal. Philosophy is a game with a goal and no rules.
00:40:31 <kwertii> Linguistics is a game with neither rules nor goal.
00:40:34 <pikhq> kwertii: Like I said, crappy axioms.
00:40:44 <kwertii> pikhq: axiomatic knowledge is by definition faith-based
00:40:58 <kwertii> pikhq: in other words... a religion! *zing*
00:41:02 <oklokok> kwertii: only the objects math handles are like that, i'd say the actual creative part of mathematics has neither rules nor a goal :)
00:41:29 <pikhq> No, no, no. Axioms are defined because they are useful.
00:41:35 <kwertii> oklokok: but the creative part just consists in inventing new rules..
00:41:43 <kwertii> pikhq: so says any religion
00:41:59 <oklokok> kwertii: well right, that's what i meant
00:42:05 <pikhq> ... No, religions state their axioms just *are*.
00:42:30 <pikhq> Math defines axioms just because they can do something with it. That's it.
00:42:41 <kwertii> pikhq: that's what math states about its axioms. granted, it's somewhat more open to modifying them, and more internally consistent, than most religions, but in the end it's still all faith-based propositions with no means of testing them
00:43:06 <kwertii> so I'll readily concede that math is a "better" religion in some sense than most..
00:43:52 <kwertii> but I don't buy into mathematical Platonism in any sense
00:44:00 <pikhq> Math is not at all internally consistent. It has been proven impossible for any nontrivial axiomatic system to be consistent. ;)
00:44:06 <pikhq> (... IIRC. I may have botched that.)
00:44:16 <pikhq> (incompleteness theorem, right?)
00:44:25 <kwertii> pikhq: it's *mostly* internally consistent. Yes, Goedel's Incompleteness theorem
00:44:35 <kwertii> which actually only applies to first order predicate calculus IIRC
00:45:03 <kwertii> ... which just proves my point that it's not a certain body of knowledge but a religion :)
00:45:10 <pikhq> And anyways, we don't take faith that our axioms are correct. We don't even say our axioms are anything but scribblings on a piece of paper.
00:45:26 <pikhq> We say that from these axioms, we can say certain things are true.
00:45:56 <kwertii> what the incompleteness theorem says is that a body of knowledge is EITHER internally inconsistent OR based on external axioms which are not provable within the system (i.e. faith-based..)
00:46:27 <kwertii> "body of knowledge" being defined narrowly as something expressable in 1st order predicate calculus
00:46:32 <pikhq> ... You haven't even demonstrated your assertion that axioms = faith.
00:47:02 <kwertii> pikhq: by definition of "axiom", they're just assertions. they're not testable. therefore faith based by definition. you can either accept that they're true or not. there's no scientific test that can be done
00:47:11 <oklokok> kwertii: but math isn't about believing in those axioms, it just says that for a system where they are true would have certain properties
00:47:25 <pikhq> kwertii: But faith implies belief.
00:47:38 <oerjan> <pikhq> (... IIRC. I may have botched that.) <-- you surely did
00:47:49 <kwertii> oklokok: sure, it's an interesting game.. I didn't say it was worthless to pursue math..
00:47:56 <oklokok> math isn't about beliving this universe is such a system, for any set of axioms
00:48:05 <oklokok> that's physics, and the rest
00:48:09 <pikhq> No mathematician *believes in* their axioms. Thus, there can be no faith involved in the game.
00:48:13 <oerjan> consistent _and complete_ is what's impossible
00:48:21 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah, right.
00:48:37 <Slereah> Consistent and complete is possible
00:48:40 <kwertii> oklokok: well.. the dominant theory of the philosophy of math in modern academia is the Platonic theory which says that mathematical truths are in some sense "real", reflections of inherent properties of the universe.. which is just magical thinking IMO
00:48:50 <Slereah> Propositional calculus is totally both
00:48:56 <pikhq> Anyways, we don't say "ZFC must be true!", we say "From ZFC, we can see that 1+1=2."
00:49:01 <oerjan> Slereah: this refers to pikhq's original statement, which included "non-trivial"
00:49:20 <Slereah> Hey, propositional calculus is not trivial!
00:49:24 <oklokok> kwertii: yes, that sounds religious, i'm not saying mathematicianism isn't a religion, just that mathematics isn't :P
00:49:32 <oerjan> well indeed that seems a bit strong
00:49:57 <kwertii> oklokok: in the sense that most mathematicians aren't aware of and don't care about the philosophical basis of their field, sure :)
00:50:24 <kwertii> pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:50:28 <oerjan> Slereah: well i was trying to interpret pikhq as close to right as possible there
00:50:28 <Slereah> There is a dude who did newtonian mechanics without any number or functions
00:50:32 <oklokok> kwertii: i mean for some mathematicians math might be a religion, but that's completely outside math as a field, imo
00:50:40 <Slereah> And he proposed methods to replace all such math
00:50:43 <pikhq> kwertii: And I know of no mathematicians that do.
00:50:47 <ehird> i hate philosophy.
00:50:58 <kwertii> pikhq: check out any modern work on the philosophy of mathematics..
00:51:01 <pikhq> Mathematicians just simply claim that ZFC is useful.
00:51:31 <kwertii> pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game
00:51:33 <pikhq> kwertii: Clearly, the philosophy of mathematics has flawed assertions.
00:52:05 <pikhq> When you start by saying that "mathematical truth is real", of course you start thinking math is a religion.
00:52:17 <pikhq> Of course, *that's not math*.
00:52:17 <oerjan> <pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:52:18 <kwertii> pikhq: that is the current mainstream view in phil of math
00:52:41 <oerjan> <kwertii> pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:52:41 <pikhq> *Nothing in math is real*. (well, aside from the set of reals. :P)
00:52:42 <kwertii> pikhq: what you're describing is closer to physics.. physicists don't care about the equations except insofar as they model some real system
00:53:07 <kwertii> oerjan: insofar as it's based on axioms arrived at inductively , it is (by definition) without any basis except faith
00:53:31 <pikhq> kwertii: And mathematicians don't care about the equations except insofar as further interesting statements can be made.
00:53:44 <kwertii> pikhq: most mathematicians, yeah, but mathematical philosophers...
00:54:08 <oerjan> kwertii: we have reason to believer it is consistent, though, as good as for any other scientific theory, because it has kept on not being proven inconsistent
00:54:16 <kwertii> pikhq: It's an interesting game, sure, but it's not capital-T Truth in any sense.
00:54:27 <pikhq> Mathematical philosophers are not talking about math, but rather their own stupid thoughts on what math is.
00:54:31 <oklokok> kwertii: by "ZFC is correct", do you mean "ZFC is consistent"
00:54:43 <oklokok> or do you mean that it's correct
00:54:58 <pikhq> The very term "correct" does not even apply to axioms. ;)
00:55:01 <kwertii> oerjan: sure, it's a good working hypothesis insofar as it turns out useful results, but it's not metaphysical capital-T Truth. it's a set of asserted rules for a game
00:55:21 <oklokok> i mean is "correct" a mathematical philosophical term and what does it mean
00:55:31 <kwertii> oklokok: by "correct", I mean an accurate description of some aspect of reality
00:55:44 <kwertii> oklokok: everything is a philosophical term ;)
00:55:49 <oklokok> right, i have no idea what that means
00:56:05 <pikhq> kwertii: "ZFC is correct" has less meaning than "colorless green ideas dream furiously".
00:56:41 <oerjan> kwertii: its importance is because all other games we have so far invented can be imbedded into it in one way or another
00:56:42 <pikhq> ... But you've not been saying that at all.
00:56:52 <kwertii> oerjan: most.. but not all......
00:57:06 <kwertii> pikhq: perhaps I haven't been explaining myself very well
00:57:17 <kwertii> oerjan: which is cool. no question about it
00:57:30 <pikhq> You've been saying that "mathematical truths are real" and "'ZFC is correct' is a belief".
00:57:50 <kwertii> pikhq: yes. faith based assertions which are not testable
00:58:15 <pikhq> kwertii: No, they are contradictions in terms.
00:58:18 <kwertii> axioms are by definition assertions. they don't derive from anything
00:58:55 <pikhq> Mathematical anything is not real. And ZFC is neither correct nor incorrect.
00:59:09 <pikhq> Mathematics is the very opposite of reality.
00:59:15 <pikhq> It's all in our heads!
00:59:21 <kwertii> pikhq: ah, good, we agree after all :)
00:59:26 <oerjan> kwertii: if you are liberal with what you consider an embedding, i'm not sure about "but not all"
00:59:41 <kwertii> oerjan: well, it can't model "random" processes, by definition
00:59:44 <oerjan> there are kripke models for alternative logics, for example
00:59:47 <pikhq> kwertii: Which is hugely different from religion.
01:00:01 <pikhq> Religion states "X is real".
01:00:04 <oerjan> kwertii: huh, sure it can. have you never heard of probability theory
01:00:12 <pikhq> Math says "Shove reality, we're having fun!"
01:00:22 <kwertii> oerjan: "random" results are by definition those that do not follow any known probability distribution
01:00:37 <oerjan> kwertii: that's an unusual definition of random
01:00:53 <kwertii> oerjan: if you know a reliable way to model random phenomena, contact me and let's make a boatload of money in the stock market :)
01:01:10 <oerjan> kwertii: modeling does not imply being able to predict
01:01:43 <kwertii> oerjan: a theory that does not make testable predictions is (by definition) unscientific
01:01:50 <oerjan> the stock market problem is probably chaos
01:02:08 <pikhq> kwertii: Good thing math isn't science.
01:02:13 <kwertii> oerjan: or sunspots or earthquakes or weather phenomena or the emission of radiation from unstable elements or outer space radio noise, etc.
01:02:17 <oklokok> math has nothing to do with science
01:02:42 <kwertii> an unscientific theory is, by definition, magical thinking.. a religion
01:03:12 <kwertii> cf. critical rationalism of Karl Popper in phil of science
01:03:27 <oklokok> kwertii: those are still things that model the real world, only they don't follow any scientific method.
01:03:31 <oklokok> they are closer to science than math.
01:03:44 <oerjan> kwertii: being unable to predict exactly is not unscientific, and math _proves_ you cannot predict chaotic systems long-term other than statistically
01:04:04 <kwertii> oerjan: chaotic != truly random
01:04:04 <pikhq> I think that this conversation suffices as empirical evidence that philosophy has terrible axioms.
01:04:20 <pikhq> With that said, I'm going to go pack.
01:04:21 <kwertii> pikhq: we don't use axioms, they're just faith-based superstition ;)
01:04:26 <oerjan> kwertii: there is no proof any of those examples are more than chaotic
01:04:53 <kwertii> oerjan: that's part of the interesting part, "randomness" can only be defined negatively... as something like "the lack of any known ordering"
01:05:13 <kwertii> oerjan: many phenomena previously considered "random" were later found to simply have non-obvious order
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01:05:42 <oklokok> so you define random as a sequence a tm can't produce?
01:06:10 <kwertii> oklokok: I don't know if I'd use that particular definition, but it could be
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01:06:37 <kwertii> oklokok: you could just have a tm repeat some previously known "random" sequence, in which case that def reduces to "uncompressable information" or something like that
01:07:01 <kwertii> oklokok: but the problem is that any sufficiently long "random" sequence will eventually include some compressable data
01:07:32 <kwertii> oklokok: if you have an infinitely long "random" string, it will contain the complete works of Shakespeare somewhere
01:08:03 <oerjan> kwertii: that doesn't make the whole sequence compressible though
01:08:42 <kwertii> oerjan: ok, I can accept more readily "the sequence as a whole is uncompressible" as a good definition.. but then you could compress it insofar as you could replace large chunks of it with algorithms and make it smaller
01:08:55 <kwertii> I don't know exactly what "random" means. if I did, I'd be a billionaire.
01:09:25 <oerjan> kwertii: nope, doesn't work, the overhead to handle those "compressible" bits will make the _rest_ longer
01:09:26 <oklokok> we should have like a basic information theory exam for getting on this channel
01:10:00 <kwertii> oerjan: but you could have an overall "smaller" string still if your overhead is smaller than the sequence removed
01:10:26 <oerjan> kwertii: but if the whole string is incompressible, then you cannot achieve that, by definition
01:10:42 <oklokok> i'll follow ehird's lead and go to the shoppe, methinks ->
01:10:42 <kwertii> oerjan: ok, so "uncompressable" is not a good definition for "random" then :)
01:11:16 <oerjan> it's undecidable, for one thing...
01:12:15 <oerjan> but then so is stochastical randomness
01:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: Mmmm, home-made sparkling water!
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01:39:18 <ehird> GregorR: what about water
01:39:37 <ehird> [00:51] kwertii: pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game
01:39:41 <ehird> way to trivialise mathematics
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01:40:10 <kwertii> ehird: ?? like it's *my* fault
01:40:36 <ehird> gawd i hate philosophers
01:41:23 <pikhq> kwertii: Learn what math is before talking about it. ;)
01:41:32 <kwertii> pikhq: I've got a pretty good grasp of math, thanks
01:41:57 <kwertii> learn what philosophy is before making philosophical claims...
01:42:54 <ehird> learn what astrology is before making astrological claims
01:43:00 <pikhq> From what I've seen of this conversation, philosophy is redefining something and then making statements regarding that redefinition.
01:43:02 <ehird> don't just say it's pseudoscientific bullshit!
01:43:18 <Slereah> Philosophy is a rather vast field
01:43:37 <Slereah> Some is actually pretty tits
01:44:35 <kwertii> Slereah: yep, vast. most all other fields are subfields of philosophy (much to some peoples' consternation). that's why you get a PhD (philosophiae doctor) in most fields as the highest degree - it means you have a philosophical understanding of the field, which is held to be the highest level of knowledge.
01:45:16 <Slereah> Well, the meaning has changed a bit
01:45:19 <kwertii> you don't necessarily need to learn all about astrology yourself before concluding that it's pseudoscience (i.e. it makes untestable predictions); you can find someone that you trust who has done the analysis for you and trust them.
01:45:31 <ehird> philosophy is bullshit
01:45:33 <Slereah> Back then it was to contrast it with a theological doctorate
01:45:41 <ehird> it's another word for,
01:45:48 <kwertii> Slereah: and a law degree (JD) and a medical degree (MD)
01:45:49 <ehird> "I can't think of a way to formalise this"
01:45:52 <ehird> "so let's just make shit up"
01:45:55 <ehird> "and pretend it's reason"
01:45:56 <GregorR> Mmmm, more sparkling water.
01:45:58 <Slereah> ehird : Gödel's incompleteness theorem is philosophy :(
01:46:04 <ehird> Slereah: no, it's mathematics
01:46:07 <kwertii> ehird: hey, don't shoot the messenger.
01:46:15 <ehird> it's not philosophy
01:46:24 <Slereah> A lot of logic and set theory was based on mathematical philosophy
01:46:47 <ehird> it's formalised so it's notphilosophy
01:47:04 <Slereah> There is an important semantical part behind it
01:47:05 <kwertii> philosophy, particularly Anglo-American analytic philosophy, is extremely formal
01:47:19 <ehird> GregorR: sparkling water can't compare to swig ingest drink!
01:47:19 <pikhq> kwertii: Then it's math.
01:47:25 <kwertii> pikhq: there's a lot of verlap
01:47:26 <Slereah> I mean, you can't prove Gödel's theorem without some semantics
01:47:40 <GregorR> ehird: ... I'm swigging, ingesting and drinking sparkling water.
01:47:41 <pikhq> Since mathematics is formal reasoning.
01:47:57 <kwertii> one of the single most foundational figures of modern mathematics, Bertrand Russell, was (not coincidentally) also a philosopher
01:48:04 <ehird> GregorR: But is it a bottle of liquid, Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption?
01:48:14 <ehird> It's like a TASTE in your MOUTH! Soft drink!
01:48:16 <Slereah> ehird, are you still 13 years old
01:48:18 <GregorR> `google "swig ingest drink"
01:48:20 <HackEgo> Main Entry: swig. Part of Speech: verb. Definition: drink down ... gulp, imbibe, ingest, ingurgitate, inhale, put away, quaff, sip, slurp, swig, swill, ... \ thesaurus.reference.com/browse/swig - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
01:48:27 <ehird> Slereah: in less than 24 hours i'm 14
01:48:37 <ehird> GregorR: It's the soft drink I invented yesterday, remember? :P
01:48:44 <GregorR> Oh, I didn't know you named it :P
01:48:48 <ehird> Slereah: I'm probably legal somewhere!
01:48:59 <Slereah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-azqXygCzO8
01:49:14 <GregorR> ehird: So long as you're having sex with <18yr olds, you're legal most everywhere in the US :P
01:49:28 <ehird> GregorR: uhh, you guys prosecute two minors fucking
01:49:38 <Slereah> I mean, most of the countries with low legal ages are rather religious
01:49:41 <ehird> at least if reddit isn't a pack of lies
01:49:46 <Slereah> And usually the age for homosexual sex isn't the same
01:49:52 <Slereah> So I'm not sure you're that legal
01:50:06 <ehird> What does ""age"" even mean anyway?!
01:50:14 <ehird> Maybe my CONCEPT has existed for 18 years.
01:50:29 <ehird> Anyway age of consent is 16 here in the UK, which seems about right
01:50:36 <ehird> Slereah: WHERE IS THIS SPECIFIED IN THE LAW
01:50:56 <ehird> The common people are NOT AWARE
01:51:33 <Slereah> Do you really want my dick this bad
01:51:52 <ehird> I am just fighting for truth, freedom and Chewbacca
01:53:09 <ehird> It's always bothered me how hard it is for a person to find out whether an action is legal or not
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01:53:16 <ehird> We're expected to just "use common sense", duh.
01:53:20 <ehird> Which is totally unhelpful.
01:53:29 <ehird> As clearly more than common sense is regulated.
01:54:28 <Slereah> ehird : Do you have an example
01:54:37 <ehird> An example of what
01:54:37 <oerjan> does anyone else see the logs strangely cut off?
01:54:54 <Slereah> Of such confusing laws for laymen
01:55:00 <ehird> they seem to be delayed
01:55:04 <ehird> Slereah: The point is that common sense isn't
01:55:21 <ehird> And there's literally no way to know if you're breaking the law apart from trawling through thousands upon thousands of pages of legalese
01:55:42 <Slereah> Yeah, but do you have like a real example
01:55:44 <ehird> We have this code to keep the peace, because if people think they'll be imprisoned for something, they won't do it
01:55:45 <kwertii> ehird: thus lawyers charge $200-500 an hour in the US
01:55:52 <ehird> Yet, nobody knows what these illegal things are
01:55:55 <ehird> so it doesn't work!
01:56:28 <kwertii> ehird: think it's a coincidence that so many politicians are lawyers?
01:58:47 <oerjan> ignorance of the law is no excuse - despite the fact a lot of people would be _unable_ to understand the law even if they tried :(
01:59:19 <oerjan> and the rest would be wasting a huge amount of resources on it
01:59:26 <ehird> I sure as fuck wouldn't; have you ever read any law?
01:59:31 <ehird> It's completely obfuscated and unorganised.
01:59:40 <ehird> Yeah, let's just say "This is repealed" 5 billion paragraphs later.
02:00:15 <pikhq> Despite the fact that it is undetermined what the law is.
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02:02:27 <Slereah> The worst thing is when the law changes and you don't notice
02:02:46 <ehird> I swear, officer, I didn't know sex with minors hadn't been legalised yet
02:10:39 <oklopol> not that i know how religious japan is
02:11:27 <Slereah> Japan is religious about rape
02:13:59 <kwertii> "pervert teacher tries to have sex with cute naive high school girls" seems to be a popular topic of light comedy on Japanese sitcoms
02:17:15 <ehird> age is a pretty silly cutoff
02:20:37 <oklopol> but it is, usually, nice and determinable
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02:21:14 <oklopol> well, really i don't see the need for a cutoff
02:22:11 <ehird> oklopol: do you think a seven year old can, intellectually, consent to sex with a manipulating 40 year old?
02:22:14 <oklopol> at least, again, morally, i guess it's useful as a law :P
02:22:40 <oklopol> so no cutoff is needed, because she'll never consent.
02:22:54 <ehird> oklopol: sure she will; she'll say "yes", then "I said yes"
02:23:08 <ehird> basically ou're just redefining consent
02:23:12 <ehird> which is kind of pointless
02:23:45 <GregorR> If a 14-year-old rapes a 25-year-old, is that statutory rape for the 25-year-old? :P
02:24:54 <oklopol> ehird: really i have nothing against a 7-yo consenting to sex with a 40-yo, i'd have loved that as a 7-yo, the actual damage is physical, that's what a 7-yo shouldn't be able to consent to.
02:24:56 <ehird> I have a new project
02:25:22 <ehird> oklopol: i think this falls under the same thing as your consensual killing thing
02:25:42 <ehird> (CAN A 7 YEAR OLD GIRL CONSENT TO A 40 YEAR OLD KILLING HER WITH HIS PENIS??????????????)
02:26:03 <ehird> ↑ i just ruined all prospects for my future employment
02:26:12 <oklopol> ehird: no, this is my craziness, the consensual killing was a valid point.
02:26:20 <ehird> pikhq: oklopol has said that he finds people who are traumatised by rape weird
02:26:23 <ehird> because he likes sex
02:26:40 <ehird> and would like to be raped
02:26:59 <pikhq> I don't think he gets that it's the "nonconsensual" bit that's traumatising.
02:27:06 <oklopol> yes, i've said i'd like to see if i'd get traumatized
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02:27:12 <oklopol> i haven't said i'd want to be raped
02:27:22 <ehird> oklopol: you've also said that you think the idea of being traumatised by it is weidr
02:27:25 <ehird> and fine, so i misremembered
02:28:57 <oklopol> if i wanted to get raped, getting raped wouldn't serve the purpose of me then being able to tell people that at least i didn't get traumatized by it.
02:30:05 <oklopol> really i don't believe anyone shouldn't do anything except by a rational choice
02:30:48 <oklopol> this is definitely not something i do, but i think others should judge me for not doing it
02:30:55 <oklopol> tricky stuff, my brain hurts.
02:31:18 <ehird> oklopol: i suspect that you just believe this shit to be weird on the interwebs :P
02:32:18 * Sgeo wonders if it might be possible to design a 3d web that's somewhat sane. Of course, it would be much easier and saner to leave the 2d web and have embeddable 3d when needed, but still
02:32:28 <oklopol> ehird: well not exactly, but yes, i'm not nearly as open about this stuff irl :)
02:33:39 <oklopol> for instance if a girl tells me she's been raped, i usually try to empathize with her to some extent
02:34:04 <oklopol> and not, you know, tell her she's a sucker for complaining about it
02:36:20 <Sgeo> oklopol, the idea of an environment where you explore information and other typical web activities in 3d. It's a sucky idea that SL and other 3d things have been pushing for
02:36:31 <Sgeo> But I wonder if it's possible to make a not-so-sucky thing
02:36:54 <oklopol> do you mean the gui part, or the actual networking part
02:37:07 <oklopol> by "actual networking", which made no sense
02:37:24 <oklopol> of what you can reach from where
02:37:30 <oklopol> hyperlinks let you explore the graph directly
02:37:46 <Sgeo> I guess the graph.
02:38:05 <oklopol> embedding stuff in R^3 will only make exploration slower
02:38:30 <oklopol> the gui, on the other hand, can be made 3d without any loss of that, you could even have like walking avatars and shit, if you used portals for hyperlinks
02:38:45 <oklopol> my brain is kinda slow atm, probably not making much sense
02:38:52 <oklopol> i'll continue reading random shit ->
02:43:34 * ehird starts settin' up an opengenera vm
02:43:35 <Sgeo> GameTap is moving to a plugin model. In the process, they removed various features, and support for OS/X
02:43:52 <Sgeo> They wrote it as OS/X
02:43:56 <ehird> the lisp machine OS, ported to some weird 64 bit architecture on linux
02:44:19 <ehird> oh brother, 0 peers?
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04:52:23 <ehird> i'm installing opengenera in a vm
04:52:33 <ehird> i wanna found a $language machine company. you guys can join.
04:54:22 <pikhq> Where $language != C?
04:55:16 <ehird> we'll make a bunch of hardware. and an OS. :P
04:59:12 <ehird> Lisp, Haskell, Graphreducing, some array language, ...
05:00:35 <ehird> But it must have an awesome OS, orthogonal persistence, hardware GC, a high-level CPU in general (near 1:1 source:cpu mapping, modulo structure and optimisations), ...
05:03:19 <ehird> The business model: get a bunch of funding from, oh, Y Combinator or someone, then sell machines somehow. :P
05:04:34 <pikhq> Get a bunch of funding, and start the magic money siphon?
05:04:56 <ehird> Twitter's business model is "Get a bunch of funding and then, um, so, about this new feature we added!"
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05:06:47 <ehird> It's a shame that there isn't really a market for such machines, except ...
05:07:35 <ehird> Actually, I'm pretty sure there are a few niche markets where they'll pay a ton to get systems that aren't offered by anything else; I remember Lisp Machines getting in them, but I'm tired so can't remember.
05:42:00 <Sgeo> "Like many companies, Cyc has ambitions to use the Cyc natural language understanding tools to parse the entire internet to extract structured data.[3]"
05:42:06 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is that a BAD idea?
05:42:22 <ehird> (a) Cyc is bullshit.
05:42:33 <ehird> Sure, Friendly AI is an important consideration.
05:42:45 <ehird> But Luddite fearmongering "I saw it in a movie" anti-AI sentiment is evil.
05:43:35 <Sgeo> I meant, there's no trustworthy place on the Internet it can look.
05:43:53 <ehird> There is no other place it can look to in the world.
05:43:55 <Sgeo> Couldn't someone just say, write a page of absolute BS, and have that be included?
05:44:06 <ehird> Yes, because it will trust every web page totally!
05:44:16 <ehird> The internet is the most accurate portrayal of humanity that exists.
05:44:25 <ehird> Its sum can be trusted as much as we can.
05:45:02 <Sgeo> How is Cyc BS?
05:45:28 <ehird> "If we define some basic logical primitives, and a way to enter fact tuples, all we have to do is enter a few hundred thousand and BAM! Strong AI!"
05:45:41 <ehird> "Also, who cares about friendliness. I'm sure it'll like us."
05:46:20 <Sgeo> It's data may be used by AIs, but who said that it is an AI, or if it is, that it has any concept of actually taking actions itself?
05:46:33 <ehird> Also, its data is worthless.
05:47:12 <ehird> It's funny, because Eurisko, despite only working with prodding for humans, showed good promise.
05:47:22 <ehird> Cyc is a massive step back from that; stupid Lenat.
05:47:33 <ehird> Hey, it's been going since 1984, wonder how that's going.
05:48:18 <ehird> Anyway, Cyc is basically... Prolog.
05:48:20 <ehird> (#$capitalCity #$France #$Paris)
05:48:26 <ehird> capitalCity(france,paris)
05:48:31 <ehird> (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUBSET)
05:48:31 <ehird> (#$genls ?SUBSET ?SUPERSET))
05:48:32 <ehird> (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUPERSET))
05:49:12 <ehird> isa(Obj,Set) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Superset)
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05:49:46 <Sgeo> isa(Obj,Superset) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Set)
05:50:15 <ehird> point is, Cyc is prolog with a million facts and nowhere to go
05:50:37 <Sgeo> Is there something wrong with being Prolog-equivalent?
05:51:01 <Sgeo> Are there any Prolog fact...thingies with similar amounts of information?
05:51:09 <ehird> No. Is there something wrong with taking Prolog, giving it awkward syntax, rebranding it as an "AI inference engine", claiming it's the next big thing in AI, starting a company based upon it, and riding it since 1984?
05:52:57 <oklopol> in 1984, it was slightly less stupid to claim that would result in an AI.
05:53:12 <ehird> his previous system
05:53:20 <ehird> sure, it didn't work all that well, and he had to help it
05:53:24 <ehird> but it made useful deductions
05:53:28 <ehird> and competed in a tournament well
05:53:32 <ehird> more than cyc has ever done or ever will
05:56:53 <Sgeo> "Lenat envisions ultimately coupling the Cyc knowledgebase with the Eurisko discovery engine."
05:56:59 <Sgeo> That makes some sense, kind of
05:57:10 <ehird> Sgeo: I don't see why you're determined to defend Cyc
05:57:23 <Sgeo> Because I played with it once.
05:57:36 <ehird> Could have guessed as much.
05:58:57 <Sgeo> OpenCyc web access thingy is down right now :(
05:59:07 <ehird> What a terrible loss.
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06:23:59 <Sgeo> Are there alternatives to Cyc?
06:27:52 <ehird> Any decent AI project.
06:28:00 <ehird> Woohoo! OpenGenera runs in a VM!
06:31:05 <Sgeo> http://osdir.com/ml/ai.prolog.swi/2002-06/msg00039.html
06:31:22 <Sgeo> Prolog interface to Cyc
06:31:32 <Sgeo> ehird, does it need to be, in order to be cool?
06:32:31 <Sgeo> I remember adding myself as a cyclist
06:33:42 <ehird> Have fun supporting a business that's holding back AI.
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06:48:59 <ehird> AnMaster: I got opengenera booted
06:49:04 <ehird> just trying to get its nfs working
06:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird, oh also, how did you get save world after site definition to work
06:49:14 <AnMaster> because that is where I failed
06:49:15 <ehird> haven't got that far
06:49:27 <ehird> read things in the comments about it though
06:49:32 <AnMaster> ehird, basically it seemed to hang there
06:49:38 <ehird> the config interface for the site is better than any interface i've used so far
06:50:18 <ehird> discoverable command line
06:50:30 <ehird> nope, this is pre-nfs
06:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you manage to save the world after the site definition
06:50:53 <ehird> it's something to do with x11 i think
06:57:22 <ehird> ok, let's try this
06:57:46 <ehird> just getting things working
06:57:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so save world worked? if so tell me what you did
06:58:04 <ehird> shut up, I'll tell you when i get ther
06:59:54 <ehird> i wish i could middle click
07:03:15 <ehird> 7:03am... sleep soon
07:06:46 <ehird> woot, it talks to nfs
07:06:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why can't you middle click
07:06:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is this before you saved site right?
07:07:05 <ehird> about to save site
07:07:14 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, tell if you get THAT step working
07:07:22 <AnMaster> then is able to run opengenera after
07:07:34 <AnMaster> from the now saved site and world stuff
07:08:09 <ehird> It's frozen after "System Shutdown..."; methinks this is correct.
07:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, same issue as I hit iir
07:08:38 <AnMaster> and not able to load the saved world thingy
07:09:28 <ehird> Well, it it didn't save at lal
07:09:47 <ehird> The only way I was able to save worlds was to use an early version of Xorg. In my case, running a Xubuntu dapper (6.06) virtual machine did the trick. Thanks to the “painfully learned facts” section here: http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux?source
07:09:56 <ehird> I have got thing working, including save world.
07:09:56 <ehird> Install details; vmware, ubuntu 6.06 server (amd64)
07:09:56 <ehird> manually installed basic xwindows from the package repositories.
07:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. so you are saying it breaks under newer X?
07:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: can you remind me to do it tomorrow
07:10:38 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, I'm going to uni soon
07:10:58 <ehird> AnMaster: you, you person
07:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know when tomorrow is in your private timezone :P
07:11:02 <ehird> and your real sleep schedules
07:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: like, when i next join.
07:11:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well likely I'm already asleep then ;P
07:11:36 <ehird> more like circa 16:00
07:11:52 <AnMaster> might not be home yet then. not sure
07:12:15 <AnMaster> well left uni, probably in car on my way home
07:14:25 <ehird> i want a button to make me sleep right now
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07:17:49 <AnMaster> Have a nice day everyone! Bye.
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07:25:54 * ehird sets up ubutnu server 6.06
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07:32:54 <ehird> lisp machines are funnnnnn
07:40:02 <ehird> i will have genera
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08:04:12 <ehird> "This will be the most confusing orgy I've ever had with myself."
08:09:34 <Sgeo> Who won't a modern Ubuntu work for OpenGenera?
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08:13:30 <Sgeo> Ah, someone reported that some "world" thing works in 6.06
08:13:35 <Sgeo> What's a "world"?
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11:57:13 <AnMaster> "Thunderbird is a lightweight mail/news/RSS client, based on the Mozilla suite. It supports different mail accounts (POP, IMAP, Gmail), has an integrated learning Spam filter, and offers easy organization of mails with tagging and virtual folders. Also, more features can be added by installing extensions."
11:57:20 <AnMaster> that is the ubuntu package description
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13:01:46 <AnMaster> I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips.
13:01:54 <AnMaster> almost no http traffic for example
13:02:00 <AnMaster> oh and it is an open network so XD
13:04:50 <AnMaster> oh and sometimes something called WLCCP which googling seems to suggest is something to make multiple Cisco access points show up as one...
13:06:04 <AnMaster> not odd my laptop wakes up so much on this wlan what will all broadcasts for mdns and such
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16:15:03 <AnMaster> another thing I found on the university wlan today was a CUPS printer server.
16:16:38 <AnMaster> which broadcast info about 7 printers
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16:35:57 <AnMaster> oh and the MAC indicates it is a Mac as well ;)
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16:43:27 <AnMaster> oh hm... that one broadcast some SMB discovery packages too... and those indicates it is a personal laptop. That is misconfigured to run a public cups server heh.
16:43:54 <AnMaster> (btw for nooga: I used tcpdump for about 30 minutes on the university wlan, now I'm analysing the results)
16:44:21 <AnMaster> and I found for example a misconfigured apple laptop that acts as a public cups server for seven printers
16:44:52 <AnMaster> nooga, oh and there are lots of clients using those "discovery protocols". Like MDNS, SSDP, and so on
16:45:17 <nooga> but no distributed renderers huh?
16:45:21 <AnMaster> oh and there are some CISCO access points talking to each others
16:46:04 <AnMaster> nooga, anyway, my laptop recieved on average 20 packages per second, about half was from my ssh tunnel back home
16:46:16 <AnMaster> (I was just doing IRC forwarding over it
16:46:48 <AnMaster> nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan!
16:47:49 <AnMaster> MDNS shows the hostname of that misconfigured mac
16:48:31 <AnMaster> _workstation._tcp.local: type PTR, class IN, Tai Chis PowerBook G4 12" [00:0d:93:af:61:f0]._workstation._tcp.local
16:49:13 <AnMaster> nooga, as a test I did a MDNS broadcast query to check for how many would respond. Lots did.
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17:01:06 <AnMaster> intersting. Looking at the statistics in wireshark show that I saw way more UDP than TCP packets
17:02:03 <AnMaster> and 85% of the TCP packets were to/from myself, while ~70% of the UDP ones were broad cast, and only about 2% of the remaining ones were to me.
17:03:09 <AnMaster> which was basically some DNS traffic
17:04:41 <AnMaster> about 57% were IPv4 packets, 24% were IPv6, and 4% were non-IP. 13% of the non-IP ones were ARP.
17:05:44 <AnMaster> then there was some "Logical Link Control" and some Cisco stuff
17:07:34 <nooga> maybe someone is playing RA2
17:09:03 <nooga> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert_2
17:09:10 <nooga> you've never played that?
17:09:35 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert_2
17:15:46 <nooga> seems that you have busy network there
17:16:01 <nooga> even during summer vacations
17:25:21 <AnMaster> nooga, and no I never played there
17:25:37 <AnMaster> nooga, oh good point, it will be really bad next week
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18:34:17 <ehird> 03:57:33 <AnMaster> thunderbird... lightweight?
18:34:17 <ehird> metacity claims the same :)
18:34:46 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, no idea about metacity. Haven't looked at the details of the window manager
18:34:49 <ehird> 05:01:46 <AnMaster> I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips.
18:34:49 <ehird> this is likely against your university's policy
18:34:58 <ehird> AnMaster: well, in code it's like 50,000 lines; in features it's very gnome
18:35:07 <ehird> works fine, though
18:35:34 <AnMaster> ehird, about policys, I didn't do any active scanning.
18:35:45 <ehird> http://incise.org/not-so-tiny-window-managers.html 49,787 lines when pentium 4s, linux 2.6.7 and gcc 3.3.4 were common
18:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, just sat there listening
18:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you're generally meant to not look at any other traffic apart from yours.
18:36:04 <ehird> for obvious reasons
18:36:31 <ehird> 08:46:48 <AnMaster> nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan!
18:36:31 <ehird> it wakes up on every packet?
18:37:06 <AnMaster> ehird, to tell software to process it I assume?
18:37:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and most were multicast.
18:37:24 <ehird> the technical details are irrelevan
18:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well, sleeping as in, CPU was in C3
18:37:28 <ehird> it's still other people's traffic
18:37:45 <ehird> and their durned cpu states
18:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: right, I wouldn't expect it to be processing packets like that!
18:39:28 <ehird> i have an urge for porridge
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18:40:38 <AnMaster> ehird, btw. I can listen to all wlan traffic outside campus as well. Since it uses an open network, and I can see a few other ones in some of the buildings.
18:40:48 <AnMaster> I would assume I could just as well listen to it outside
18:40:55 <ehird> C'mon, look up the policy.
18:41:03 <ehird> I'm absolutely certain it's forbidden
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18:41:19 <ehird> Sure, they all say "Ohh use HTTPS for sensitive stuff since it's open"
18:41:25 <ehird> But also "Don't spy on others' traffic
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well, only reason I was doing this was debugging the silly wakeups
18:42:20 <ehird> Disable "Why don't we look at EVERY PACKET in our CPU dreams!" mode.
18:42:28 <ehird> Maybe they're like sheep.
18:42:34 <ehird> "1 packet jumping over the firewall..."
18:42:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean promisc mode? well, it wakes up even in non-promisc mode it seems
18:42:42 <ehird> "Two packets jumping over the firewall..."
18:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess the wlan hardware is just rather stupid
18:43:04 <ehird> See ↑ for the TRUTH.
18:44:30 <ehird> you know, snap4's mapping of rubout to delete is stupid
18:44:33 <ehird> one, it does BACKSPACING
18:44:38 <ehird> two, it's where caps lock is
18:44:42 <ehird> at least put it on tab or something
18:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, managed to save the world?
18:44:50 <ehird> installing ubuntu 6.06 server
18:45:52 <ehird> Wipe the 6GB IDE harddrive, fuck yeah!
18:47:09 <ehird> FUCK YOU ANCIENT UBUNTU INSTALL
18:47:20 <ehird> "Because you chose the US as your location, obviously I should only give you the option of US timezones."
18:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you select US as location then
18:48:13 <ehird> because i wanted the "standard" stuff
18:48:18 <ehird> instead of some iffy UK localisation
18:48:52 * AnMaster uses kismet to scan for wireless networks at home
18:49:08 <AnMaster> no clients seen so far. Lots of access points though
18:50:13 <ehird> i love unprotected wifi
18:50:24 <ehird> it's like free love, but more relevant to today's post-bloggist twitterbook age.
18:50:39 <ehird> may a thousand baby instant messages bloom.
18:51:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I somehow feel that analogy is not 100% correct
18:52:05 <ehird> i spent a few seconds trying to reply to that
18:53:26 * ehird watches bill o'reilly get all worked up about jon stewart
19:06:33 <ehird> http://www.smartwikisearch.com/
19:07:30 <ehird> [["Scheme" should designate two separate but compatible languages: "small" and "large" Scheme]]
19:18:48 <ehird> [[If you repeatedly dismiss the screen saver less than one minute after it starts on Windows Vista or later, the operating system says, "Oh, sorry. I thought there was nobody there, but obviously there is. You're probably reading an information-dense document or using your laptop as a flashlight or clock, and you want the screen to stay on even though you aren't generating any input. I'll hold off the screen saver for a little while for you."]]
19:18:54 <ehird> Hey, Windows being clever and usable.
19:25:10 <ehird> AnMaster: are startx and xinit in different packages from xorg usually?
19:25:49 <ehird> in ubuntu 6.06 at least
19:26:12 <ehird> "error opening security policy file" X_X
19:30:51 <AnMaster> and seriously, someone who even can't use WEP?
19:32:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "at hope"?
19:32:59 <ehird> Also, most people don't care.
19:33:39 <ehird> Firstly, not all that many people hijack wifi; secondly, it probably won't affect them even if they did; thirdly, the annoyance of configuring it and all computers they have is huge.
19:42:22 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, they don't even seem to do anything interesting ;P
19:46:57 <ehird> grr, what is the package to install to get "just make x working, dammit" :P
19:47:19 <AnMaster> okay I think I found the optimal frequency to use. No one seems to use channel 8
19:47:33 <AnMaster> only one using channel 7 and one using channel 9
19:47:42 <ehird> Unless you have a draft-n router, AnMaster, worrying about speed is kind of pointless.
19:47:48 <ehird> Also, 7 will overlap, iirc.,
19:47:48 <AnMaster> while pretty much everything else is dense
19:48:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I'm on 1 atm and I get another strong one on it in my room
19:48:28 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/21/steampunk-mouse-now-with-100-per-cent-more-skull/ A mouse made of brass and a sheep's skull.
19:48:29 <AnMaster> so yes I'm going to try another to see if I get disconnected randomly less often
19:49:54 <ehird> http://www.instructables.com/id/Mouse-Mouse!/ A mouse made out ofa mouse.
19:50:04 <ehird> Reminds me of that computer mod; some furry animal.
19:50:17 <ehird> Oh, taxidermy + computing; when will you cease to entertain?
19:51:06 <ehird> Here: http://www.instructables.com/id/Compubeaver---%3E-How-to-case-mod-a-beaver---in-29-e/
19:52:46 <ehird> Yes, but the idea of using the mouse mouse with the beaver 'puter isn't old!
19:54:39 <AnMaster> "This is not the page you're looking for."
19:58:53 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/20/video-concert-hands-teaches-you-to-play-piano-whether-you-want/
20:02:11 <ehird> don't care awesome
20:02:25 <AnMaster> "Locked at the wrists onto a sliding mechanical bar"
20:02:38 <AnMaster> that prevents playing properly anything advanced I guess
20:03:10 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I'm saying you need to move hands pretty much freely to play a piano well
20:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it moves them for you
20:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, the bar too? and what about taking a whole octave in one hand
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20:04:06 <AnMaster> you have too small hands for that anyway
20:04:39 <ehird> ais523: what package do i need to install on ubuntu to get the base xorg env?
20:04:48 <ais523> hmm... I don't know offhand
20:04:50 <ehird> xorg-server plus xinit plus xfonts-base didn't work
20:04:53 <ais523> let me run an apt-cache search
20:04:55 <ehird> it can't find a security fil
20:04:59 <ehird> (this is ubuntu server 6.06)
20:05:05 <ehird> (but i assume it hasn't changed that much)
20:05:49 <ais523> hmm... xorg-server doesn't even exist in 9.04, although there's an xserver-xorg
20:06:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_OS / talk about non-notable
20:06:37 <ais523> 1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver-xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver-
20:06:38 <ais523> xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11)
20:06:40 <ais523> xserver-common (3 7) ) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7)
20:06:46 <ais523> that's a list of dependencies for xserver-xorg on this version
20:06:57 <ehird> err, I installed xserver-xorg
20:07:15 <ehird> but it errors out trying to find a security file
20:07:26 <ais523> what specifically is the error?
20:07:30 <ehird> "error opening security policy file /etc/X11/xserver/SecurityPolicy"
20:08:28 <ais523> ah, apparently a default security policy is installed in /usr/share/doc/examples/SecurityPolicy
20:08:41 <ais523> and you need to copy it to the right location yourself, it's a bug or weirdness or something
20:08:54 <ehird> still today, or just 6.06?
20:09:01 <ais523> that was a result of a Google search
20:09:09 <ehird> probably not today
20:09:11 <ais523> and not still today, as the required file doesn't exist on my laptop
20:09:36 <ais523> dated June 1st, 2006, so 6.06 seems very plausible
20:09:59 <ehird> ok, other problems now,
20:10:09 <ehird> it quits after showing the black/white and X cursor
20:10:12 <ehird> relevant error might be
20:10:29 <ehird> No matching visual for __GLcontextMode with visual class = 1 (32774), nplanes = 4294967295
20:10:32 <ehird> repeated four times
20:10:34 <ehird> or the one befor that
20:10:41 <ehird> Couldn't open RGB_DB '/etc/X11/rgb'
20:10:52 <ais523> do you have an OpenGL-capable driver installed for your graphics card?
20:11:06 <ais523> that's the sort of thing server installs don't come with by default
20:11:22 <ehird> My graphics card is the VirtualBox thingy.
20:11:27 <ehird> But it shouldn't need OpenGL.
20:12:01 <ais523> well, the error message above implies it was trying to use OpenGL, possibly as a fallback due to a missing driver
20:12:07 <AnMaster> Maybe I should get a wlan card that supports external antenna and then make a cantenna?
20:12:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Or just buy an antenna
20:12:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well, but I need one where I can connect an external one
20:12:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can buy USB wireless cards that have big-ass antennas
20:13:01 <ehird> ais523: well, new ubuntu desktop versions work fine, yet installing virtualbox guest additions changes the way the display works
20:13:11 <ehird> and gives resolutions >1024x768
20:13:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as long as it works with kismet and aircrack-ng...
20:13:20 <ehird> so obviously there isn't a driver in ubuntu for my SPECIFIC "card"
20:14:00 <ais523> ehird: installing a driver for the card that the server thinks it's connected to is likely to help, I suspect
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20:15:38 <ehird_> ais523: well, generic svga
20:15:46 <ehird_> but surely installing xorg installed those
20:15:49 <ehird_> it DID install xorg drivers
20:15:52 <ehird_> though perhaps not opengl ones
20:17:18 <ehird_> i'm showing up in tunes logs at least
20:19:24 <ais523> ehird_: there's a load of xserver-xorg-video-* drivers
20:19:33 <ehird_> yes, and xserver-xorg installs a fuckton
20:19:37 <ehird_> presumably including generic ones
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20:21:17 <ehird_> I think it's perhaps the rgb database
20:21:28 <ehird_> as the gl things may just be warnings
20:22:05 <ehird_> "startx" will exit after the desktop if you have no WM, right?
20:22:22 <ehird_> well, what the fuck...
20:22:23 <ais523> no, IIRC it just pops up a server and does nothing
20:22:25 <ehird_> $ apt-cache search twm
20:22:42 <ais523> ehird_: twm's in my repo, at least
20:22:51 <ais523> have you done an apt-get update ever?
20:22:51 <ehird_> Yes, thus "what the fuck".
20:22:59 <ehird_> Yes. I'll do it again.
20:23:12 <ehird_> ais523: maybe they stripped down the 6.06 repos
20:23:14 <ehird_> due to being ancient and all
20:23:36 <ehird_> how do i get a count of all packages in the db?
20:24:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, I'm able to see 44 networks with kismet from various points in two rooms
20:24:22 <AnMaster> in any one place: usually 4-6 networks
20:24:24 <ehird_> you must live in a very big city
20:24:32 <ehird_> well, dense city, at least
20:24:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: clearly you're getting wifi cancer
20:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, an area of free standing houses
20:24:50 <ehird_> from all those uber-strong routers
20:24:56 <FireFly> Wait, in one place, 4 networks?
20:25:04 <AnMaster> most are quite low signal level
20:25:05 <ehird_> i see like 4 networks from this machine
20:25:16 <AnMaster> I doubt I could connect to them
20:25:21 <AnMaster> without a good external antenna
20:25:23 <FireFly> I think I can usually see two from here, sometimes one
20:25:41 <FireFly> Uh, in my house, in a suburb of Stockholm
20:25:44 <AnMaster> small/mid-sized town (20 000 inhabitants)
20:26:10 <FireFly> Apparently my suburb has a population of 14 250
20:26:14 <FireFly> According to swedish wikipedia
20:26:18 <ehird_> ais523: name a common but not so common package?
20:26:39 <AnMaster> SSID: Sakersurfzon_Bredbansbolaget
20:27:01 <ehird_> (Please Would Religious People Stop Trying to Defend Their Beliefs Logically-Related WTF of the day: "I think one thing I have learned regarding atheists is they try and put so much logic into their arguments that common sense and reason get thrown out the window.")
20:27:21 <AnMaster> for the English speaking people
20:27:44 <FireFly> Wardriving in Centralen (the Stockholm Central Station) with my DS was funny
20:27:45 <AnMaster> Secure surf zone_NameOfMajorISPInSweden
20:28:03 <AnMaster> oh I picked up a WLAN network from a passing train just now
20:28:16 <ehird_> "I NEED TO TWEET THIS!!"
20:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird_, like 1 km away already
20:29:16 <ehird_> ("Again with the probability theory. […] That is just what it is a theory." ;_;)
20:29:36 <AnMaster> brb, going to some other rooms to check for more networks there. Oh and this was all from second floor indoors (may try outdoors tomorrow, is currently raining heavily, like most of today)
20:30:07 <ehird_> i hate #ubuntu with a fiery passion
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20:31:36 <ais523> ehird_: #ubuntu is generally rather useless for anyone but a newbie, although I don't mind it
20:31:44 <ais523> I go there sometimes to answer questions, but I've never tried asking one
20:32:04 <ehird_> there should be an #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer
20:32:14 <ais523> my client actually autolinked all that
20:32:18 <ais523> although, presumably joining it will fail
20:32:27 <ais523> [Error] #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer is currently unavailable.
20:32:30 <ehird_> of course, if I repeat my now long-forgotten question now, the idiot brigade will start -
20:32:45 <ehird_> "BE PATIENT! WAIT UNTIL QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS PLANT THE NOW-LOST MEMORY OF YOUR QUESTION IN THEIR MIND SPONTANEOUSLY!"
20:33:12 <ais523> is there a #ubuntu-server, I wonder?
20:33:23 <ehird_> there's an #ubuntu-server
20:33:29 <ehird_> but 6.06 is more like -345
20:33:46 <ehird_> ais523: unfortunately, my question is not server specific.
20:34:14 <ais523> well, you are on a server distro, and it's likely to have a lower idiot proportion
20:34:22 <ehird_> "For general (not server specific) support visit #ubuntu"
20:34:48 <ais523> well, I suppose it is server-specific, in that it would work on the desktop distros due to being preinstalled
20:36:51 <ehird_> ais523: you said something about less idiots
20:36:52 <ehird_> [20:35] _ruben: you're in luck .. ubuntu server doesnt have any window managers due to lack of X ;)
20:37:01 <ehird_> It's not like they use the same repositories or anything.
20:37:16 <ais523> maybe they didn't use the same repos back then?
20:37:44 <ehird_> [20:37] _ruben: yeah .. but its not really supported (by the server team) .. as it pretty much turns your server into a desktop
20:40:10 <ehird_> [20:39] ehird_: hmm, oh
20:40:11 <ehird_> [20:39] ehird_: universe is commented out by default
20:40:11 <ehird_> [20:40] ehird_: how embarrassing :) sorry
20:41:25 * ehird_ reinstalls from the alternate cd
20:41:40 <ehird_> ais523: they seemed very keen to get me off the server version, I wonder why :-)
20:42:48 -!- Asztal has quit (".").
20:45:45 <AnMaster> the two extra were both from other rooms at the second floor
20:59:32 * ehird_ installs Ubuntu alternate 6.06
20:59:38 <ehird_> this time it'll work :P
20:59:58 <ehird_> I downloaded the non-64 bit version
21:01:55 <AnMaster> ehird_, you need 64-bit or non-64-bit?
21:02:12 <ehird_> since opengenera ran on 64-bit unix, albeit not x86
21:02:22 <ehird_> due to the 36-bit thing
21:02:28 <ehird_> emulating on 32-bit would be horrifically slow
21:03:54 * ehird_ reads someone try to defend a literal interpretation of the 6 day creation of the universe with relativity
21:03:59 * ehird_ laments the lack of popcorn
21:05:04 <ais523> one of my friends had trolling creationism forums as his favourite hobby
21:05:23 <ehird_> ais523: you can't troll someone too fanatical, as they reject logic as a valid method of argumentation
21:05:31 <ehird_> it's a very delicate balance
21:05:36 <ais523> he wasn't trolling to convince them, just popcorn-style
21:05:51 <ais523> it wasn't trolling as in 'giving logical arguments', but as in 'trying to incite a flamewar'
21:06:16 <ehird_> yes, but you can't do that if their response to anything opposing is "Yes, but that is not true because the Bible says so, which is simply true and therefore this argument is over."
21:07:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since we seem to have a habit of swapping these... merged together a few pictures from Helsinki recently, http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/
21:09:39 <ehird_> wtf, in helsinki all buildings aren't made out of awesomely transparent glass?
21:10:17 <fizzie> These are mostly from the slightly older bits of town.
21:10:24 <ehird_> ahh, before they discovered glass
21:10:57 <fizzie> Yes; we don't believe in substance reuse, we always re-invent everything.
21:11:33 <ehird_> in the beginning, god invented light
21:12:05 <ehird_> fizzie: anyway are you finns really that bad at driving or is that just an urban myth
21:12:12 <ehird_> where they stop driving
21:12:22 <ehird_> kinda seems like a cruel joke at you guys' expense
21:14:24 <AnMaster> you know all those dlink ones ehird_?
21:14:46 <ehird_> thank you, AnMaster, I cannot comprehend this "backwards".
21:14:49 <ehird_> i needed it spelling out
21:17:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, another rather silly is "IngetSadantNatvark" which (assuming the missing dots are added to make it "IngetSådantNätverk" which is the only probable interpretation): NoSuchNetwork
21:17:54 <ehird_> Rename your wireless network to "(name of swedish secret services) tracking station"
21:18:09 <ehird_> instantly, everybody stops leeching wifi off everyone in the area!
21:18:35 <ehird_> Your secret services offer spas?
21:18:49 <HackEgo> * watering place: a health resort near a spring or at the seaside \ * resort hotel: a fashionable hotel usually in a resort area \ * health spa: a place of business with equipment and facilities for exercising and improving physical fitness
21:18:56 <HackEgo> * The Swedish Security Service (Skerhetspolisen, literally "the Security Police", abbreviated Spo), former name Rikspolisstyrelsens ... \ [19]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spo \ * The SAPO (short for Samocinn poctac) was the first Czechoslovak computer. It operated in the years 1957-1960 in Vzkumn stav ...
21:19:09 <ehird_> Wow, someone networked an early computer!
21:19:13 <ehird_> AnMaster: "Sparstation"
21:19:21 <fizzie> WLANs around here currently: "anninwlan", "Tompan WLAN", "SAATANA", "wlan-ap". There are more "visible" in the other room, I think. ("anninwlan" is literally "Anni's wlan" while "Tompan WLAN" is obviously "Tomppa's WLAN"; and fi:saatana is en:devil, used usually as a swearword, like "damn".)
21:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird_, so that would be railway station
21:19:40 <ehird_> Chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga WOO WOO
21:19:40 <AnMaster> if you seriously mistranslates it a few times
21:21:36 <ehird_> Just misinterpret my keypresses
21:22:51 <AnMaster> ehird_, and there is another train :D
21:23:13 <ehird_> Now it's complaining that I need to do noapic, despite not doing so last time.
21:23:17 <ehird_> Nondeterministic VMs...
21:24:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, was kernel upgraded inside?
21:24:56 <AnMaster> because, iirc ioapic in virtualbox is buggy
21:24:56 <ehird_> As a result, I psychologically distrust VirtualBox more.
21:25:02 <AnMaster> but only recent kernels expose this
21:25:19 -!- coppro has joined.
21:31:41 <AnMaster> iirc thinkpads has quite decent antennas built in. Compared to many other laptops that is
21:31:58 <AnMaster> of course, far from the quality of an external antenna
21:33:26 <ehird_> with the x200 you get two antennas in the display area
21:33:43 <ehird_> dunno if they're in the base too or not
21:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird_, an external, directional, antenna will always beat it
21:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, no. quite a far bit better
21:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, also, this laptop must have at least two antennas, since it does support pre-n
21:34:46 <AnMaster> and that requires more than one antenna iirc
21:35:15 <ehird_> IEEE 802.11n - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:35:15 <ehird_> Work on the 802.11n standard dates back to 2004. The draft is expected to be published in January 2010, but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', ...
21:35:24 <ehird_> I've always heard draft-n
21:35:31 <ehird_> draft is expected to be published in January 2010,[9] but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', 'draft n' or 'MIMO-based' products based on early specs
21:35:34 <ehird_> but draft-n is a lot more common
21:36:42 <ehird_> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / have I mentioned this keyboard is beautifu
21:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird_, I have seen pre-N a lot more than draft N
21:37:06 <ehird_> Maybe you dirty swedes hate words.
21:37:23 <ehird_> Dirty swedes do swirty deeds.
21:37:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, do you consider 17.5 W a lot when using kismet in channel hopping mode?
21:38:00 <AnMaster> varies between 17.0W and 17.5W
21:38:03 <ehird_> Not if you're using the system.
21:38:16 <ehird_> Your system will probably draw like 30W at actual full load.
21:38:23 <ehird_> and like 40-50W at theoretical full load of every component
21:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird_, well tested mostly full load, both cores busy re-compressing pngs
21:39:19 <ehird_> Yes, well, png compression isn't exactly a really strenuous task, nor does it exercise the GPU.
21:39:33 <AnMaster> but it does quite a bit of load on the cpu
21:39:52 <ehird_> Well, if 25W is typical full CPU load, then I imagine more like 35W for CPU + GPU load.
21:39:52 <AnMaster> which basically brute forces the compression parameters
21:40:15 <ehird_> I wonder why people bother with that.
21:40:20 <ehird_> Seems like a waste of time.
21:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird_, possibly, intel graphics use quite a lot less power than ati or nvidia chipsets
21:40:52 <ehird_> AnMaster: Not nvidia integrated GPUs.
21:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird_, worse than intel still iirc
21:41:36 <AnMaster> there is even a page on thinkwiki about it
21:41:42 <ehird_> Well, the nvidia embedded gpus are good nowadays.
21:42:22 <AnMaster> I don't believe these columns...
21:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird_, kismet fails at aligning columns correctly to the column headers
21:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, that's what YOUR MOM said
21:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, nah, in the cage, you know S&M
21:44:01 <ehird_> (THAT'S WHAT SHE GOT.)
21:44:09 <ehird_> I feel a sudden urge to kill myself.
21:44:13 <AnMaster> ehird_, unknown idiom detected: "ice burn"
21:44:27 <nooga> ehird_: do it faggot
21:45:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, is http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/p_view.jpg merged or is there a headless person on the street?
21:52:47 <ehird_> does anyone know how to prettyprint some xml
21:54:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:54:38 <AnMaster> there we go. Channel 13 is a lot better than the other ones
22:01:15 <Gracenotes> I feel so bad about giving local variables meaningful names in Haskell :/ But I suppose I must bite the bullet and stop choosing arbitrary alphabetic sequences
22:01:50 <ais523> Gracenotes: hmm... why do you get upset at meaningfully-named variables?
22:02:53 <ehird_> Hung at "unpacking the basse system", 48%.
22:03:10 <ehird_> ais523: it's bad haskell style; "meaningful" is the wrong name
22:03:30 <ehird_> "n" is vastly preferred over "name", for instance
22:04:23 <Gracenotes> well, I exaggerate, true. But I realized that most of the local variables in this function names like "imap", "pmap", "rmap", "rpmap", "iset", "cs", "ps", and a few hours later I'm thinking "what the hell do these do again..?"
22:04:37 <ehird_> Gracenotes: "this function"?
22:04:47 <ehird_> ais523: does ubuntu normally stall when unpacking the base syste,...?
22:04:53 <ehird_> Gracenotes: still too many
22:05:09 <ais523> ehird_: installation can seem to be jammed sometimes, but that rarely happens
22:05:21 <ehird_> it's been at 48% for like an hour.
22:05:26 <ehird_> though i can switch consoles
22:06:01 <Gracenotes> hum. I suppose I could eliminate the where clauses containing the names, but doing so would just clutter up the top line excessively
22:06:24 <ehird_> Gracenotes: if the subfunction isn't directly and irrevocably related to the operations of the function it's contained within, break it out
22:07:28 <Gracenotes> just to give you a taste, the first three lines are
22:07:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:07:40 <Gracenotes> where (others, mainNumber) = icomponents' us 1 Set.empty Map.empty
22:07:42 <Gracenotes> mainChar = IntMap.fromList . map (\(a, b) -> (b, a)) $ Map.toList mainNumber -- IntMap Char
22:07:44 <Gracenotes> otherNumber = Map.fromList . flip zip [-1,-2..] $ Set.toList others -- Map Char Int
22:07:57 <ehird_> firstly, what the fuck are those? Type comments?
22:08:04 <ehird_> Either give them actual type annotations or omit them because they're not irreleavnt.
22:08:07 <Gracenotes> lots of data structures. lots of boring, otherwise meaningless code
22:08:12 <ehird_> Deewiant: rather, foo :: a; foo = b
22:08:32 <Deewiant> With short stuff like that I'd just tack it on the end
22:08:34 <ehird_> those "comments" is fucking retarded
22:09:15 <Gracenotes> yeah, the important partt is that its a map from Int -> Char or Char -> Int, not the types themselves. There are maps of all sorts of permutations of back-and-forthiness
22:09:34 <ehird_> You have a type signature that you apparently think is neccessary.
22:09:41 <ehird_> Yet you replace two characters to make it specifically unenforced.
22:09:53 <ehird_> Despite replacing it back having NO adverse side effects
22:10:02 <ehird_> Furthermore, it's very unidiomatic.
22:10:06 <ehird_> Why on earth would you do this?
22:10:53 <Gracenotes> whatever, I'll change it to -- Int -> Char if it'll make you happy, but realize that there are 3 other lines with rather similar code. It is to help the type inference engine in my brain, not Haskell's.
22:11:06 <Deewiant> The point is to replace the -- with ::
22:11:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it's also badly merged; it's through the hotel room window, with a bit of camera displacement in addition to rotation.
22:11:19 <Deewiant> Making the compiler check for you that the comment is correct
22:11:24 <ehird_> Gracenotes: i think you should stop coding haskell ;_;
22:11:25 <Gracenotes> Haskell can already infer it just fine, it doesn't need to be told. I need to be told. OKAY? ;_;
22:11:42 <Deewiant> Maybe Haskell is inferring it to something else and you're being told the wrong thing?
22:11:48 <Deewiant> The :: tells it to both you and Haskell
22:12:24 <Deewiant> You seem to be missing the point entirely
22:12:37 <Deewiant> Why would you intentionally make it a comment instead of a type signature
22:13:18 <ehird_> Gracenotes: you really don't get haskell
22:13:18 <Gracenotes> who said I intentionally made a comment for purposes other than keeping track while I was writing it? Making it an explicit type comment is rather silly when the first thing on the line is Map.fromList and IntMap.fromList...
22:13:35 <ehird_> So if you can infer it from reading the code, why is it a comment?
22:13:43 <ehird_> ais523: it's still at 48%
22:13:55 -!- Sneezle has joined.
22:14:56 <Gracenotes> there, I have deleted it. end of discussion. I no longer have ambiguous names for my expressions, therefore I do not need, fucking ocmment nazis, I hope the comment mossad gets you one day
22:15:31 <Gracenotes> however, note that the code itself is similar!
22:15:56 * oerjan feels #esoteric is so damn negative these days
22:15:59 <Gracenotes> so ambiguous names like pmap, imap, and rmap are not helpful, as I am dealing with *lots* of data
22:16:01 <ehird_> the fact that you'd write and defend such a comment implies you should probably be trying to learn haskell...
22:16:07 <ehird_> oerjan: sorry, I'll never criticise doing stupid things again
22:16:22 <ehird_> Gracenotes: break up the data.
22:16:24 <ehird_> process it separately.
22:16:29 <oerjan> ehird_: that was not the only example
22:16:48 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
22:17:01 <oerjan> that ruins channel comprehension
22:17:18 <ais523> hmm... I just ignored myself to see what would happen
22:17:22 <ais523> and I can still see my own comments
22:17:38 <ais523> nah, I suspect that's intended behaviour
22:17:42 <ehird> oerjan: /shrug. I've always criticised stupid things: so unless you're talking about pre-2007, you're just imagining it.
22:17:42 <Gracenotes> ais523: probably because the ignore event is from comments received over the network..?
22:17:48 <ais523> after all, IRC doesn't echo your own comments back
22:17:50 <Deewiant> Make it a feature request then
22:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, don't buy your laptop in US
22:18:07 <Gracenotes> most IRC clients make events for network items, and just display your comments
22:18:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay; why?
22:18:10 <oerjan> ah, 2006, what a sweet year
22:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, intel wireless are crippled there on the hardware level
22:18:17 <AnMaster> ehird, to only allow US channels
22:18:18 <Gracenotes> I should mention that the purpose of the function is creating a data structure with several elements, though
22:18:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you absolutely sure?
22:18:36 <AnMaster> http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/78476-iwl3945-driver-channel-capability.html
22:18:44 <AnMaster> http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/07/27/wifi-regulatory-rant/
22:18:53 <Gracenotes> the actual data structure is data Dag = Dag (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap Char)
22:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and mine, bought in EU can manage up to channel 13, but can't do channel 14
22:19:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Bizarre; shameful.
22:19:13 <Gracenotes> so you can see, there is a lot of data that needs to be compiled together, and all of it is needed for the various functions
22:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, which is possible with the same model sold in Japan
22:19:24 <ehird> You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive.
22:19:30 <Gracenotes> that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it
22:19:34 <ehird> and may do the same
22:19:37 <Gracenotes> that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it
22:19:40 <ehird> Gracenotes: it is perfectly breakable
22:20:02 <ehird> you operate on parts of data, and there are parts that do not depend on one anothr
22:20:11 <ehird> by definition, these can be broken up
22:20:40 <Deewiant> Flarg. How do I get all factorizations of a natural number?
22:20:48 <Gracenotes> anyweh, the only efficient way to do it is to generate the index while making the component map at the same time
22:21:00 <ehird> Deewiant: factor(1)
22:21:17 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
22:21:18 <Deewiant> ehird: That gives one, not all.
22:21:39 <Deewiant> Getting the prime factorization is easy enough.
22:21:42 <ehird> Gracenotes: GHC does fusion.
22:21:49 <ehird> You can perfectly well separate things.
22:22:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive. <-- hm?
22:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: .......................................wifi
22:22:44 <Gracenotes> GHC does not magically deforest trees and sets
22:22:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean, they have a custom one called "thinkpad card"?
22:22:59 <ehird> Well, it's just "ThinkPad Wi-Fi" or whatever
22:23:04 <Gracenotes> it fuses lists mainly. I don't care about lists here.
22:23:47 <ehird> Good, I think. But, the chip uses a less-dense (nanometer) manufacturing process.
22:23:50 <ehird> So hotter, more power.
22:23:58 <ehird> and I don't know if it does draft-n.
22:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, draft n is kind of broken in iwlwifi currently iirc
22:26:31 <ehird> "HAVE YOU CONSIDERED"
22:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and you need backported drivers with a few patches for kismet and aircrack-ng
22:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, it also results in no more OOPS in iwlagn on shutdown
22:27:10 <AnMaster> which otherwise happens on ubuntu
22:27:16 <Gracenotes> ehird: anyway. everything you've said so far has not applied to my specific case, just aimless general ranting, so if you want to write a function that takes a [String] where, for each (x:xs), x is the child component and xs is the parent component, then convert to parent->child and child->parent DAGs in an indexing system determined by the order of characters in the initial [String], with...
22:27:19 <Gracenotes> ...negative indices applies to all those which do not have an index, please go ahead and report on the results
22:27:20 <AnMaster> you also need to get the new firmware
22:27:21 <ehird> abaondon hope all ye who enter here
22:27:27 <ehird> abaonaonoanoaodoaodaon
22:27:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: seems like that is equivalent to finding partitions of a multiset
22:28:47 <oerjan> duplicates may be a complication
22:29:28 <AnMaster> http://intellinuxwireless.org/
22:29:33 <AnMaster> get the new firmware from there
22:29:43 <AnMaster> ehird, place it in /lib/firmware
22:29:57 <AnMaster> with the backported driver of course
22:30:08 <ehird> why not use ubuntu backports
22:30:21 <AnMaster> ehird, not new enough backport
22:30:36 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, it seems to be from 2.6.39 instead of 2.6.30
22:30:39 <Deewiant> I actually have an implementation already but it's kinda roundabout
22:30:53 <ehird> 9 versions behind!
22:30:55 <oerjan> Deewiant: hm i think a recursion handling all instances of the smallest prime each step might be the way to go
22:30:56 <Deewiant> And I think it might miss some
22:31:12 <ehird> Ugh, stupid ehird and his JOKES.
22:31:16 <ehird> Doesn't he know it was a TYPO.
22:31:29 <AnMaster> it still oopses with the ubuntu backports thingy
22:31:41 <oerjan> because any factors that don't have the same number of the smallest prime cannot duplicate each other
22:31:42 <AnMaster> so yeah, just get wireless-compat for 2.6.30
22:31:45 <Gracenotes> *sigh* now I remember, this is why I take programming advice with a huge fucking grain of salt
22:31:59 <ehird> nobody knows how to program properly
22:32:03 <ehird> they just don't "get" you
22:32:08 <oerjan> (smallest is of course an arbitrary choice)
22:32:29 <Gracenotes> ehird: I described the problem above, for your edification.
22:33:01 <ehird> Gracenotes: if you agree to paypal me an hourly rate I'm happy to code it for you
22:33:08 <ehird> otherwise, ... not my problem
22:33:13 <Gracenotes> it is not that the advice is useless, it is that of course it can't apply to my case without you knowing what it is.
22:33:40 <ehird> 1. split up all steps that possibly can be, don't think about efficiency, GHC can handle it
22:33:50 <ehird> 2. if you process data while ignoring some other parts of data, separate this and pass it only that data.
22:34:42 <GregorR> My hobo wine is being brewed!
22:34:55 <ehird> GregorR: is it swig ingest drink
22:34:59 <HackEgo> * tramp: a disreputable vagrant; "a homeless tramp"; "he tried to help the really down-and-out bums" \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * HoBO is a bi-annual, avant-garde magazine. Through collections of interviews, essays, and photo stories HoBO interviews celebrities, and other media figures. Founded
22:35:06 <HackEgo> * Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines. Low-end wines that are not fortified are usually packaged in jugs or boxes. \ [12]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_wine \
22:35:14 <Gracenotes> yes, I've been following those to that greatest extent I can
22:35:24 <ehird> "Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines."
22:35:27 <ehird> Thanks, Wikipedia!
22:35:29 <GregorR> ehird: Currently it's just hobo wine, I have to collect the CO2 before I can carbonate.
22:35:36 <Gracenotes> anyway, at least have some appreciation for the inapplicability of the problem to immutable data structures, being graph-based
22:35:43 <ehird> GregorR: What are you doing
22:35:53 <GregorR> ehird: http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-Generator/
22:35:58 <ehird> graphs can be functional, easy
22:36:01 <GregorR> It's a biological renewable CO2 generator :)
22:36:12 <ehird> GregorR: what do you want CO2 for?
22:36:22 <GregorR> ehird: To carbonate water.
22:36:25 <Gracenotes> corecursively generated IntMap DAGs can be a pain to keep track of
22:36:32 <GregorR> Well, to carbonate X where X is a water-based beverage.
22:36:36 <ehird> GregorR: You could just buy some soda.
22:36:43 <GregorR> ehird: This is less expensive.
22:36:50 <GregorR> Also, carbonated water is hard to find.
22:36:51 <ehird> If your time is worth $0 :P
22:36:51 <Deewiant> Anybody have a copy of The Monad Reader #8?
22:36:55 <Gracenotes> but nonetheless essential data to create
22:36:57 <ehird> GregorR: so carbonate it yourself...
22:37:36 <oerjan> `google monad reader #8
22:37:37 <HackEgo> [14]The Monad.Reader Issue 8 \ File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - [15]View as HTML
22:37:50 <oerjan> GregorR: still no URLs?
22:38:12 <AnMaster> ehird, was your card an 5300 AGN?
22:38:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll be getting a 5300, yes.
22:38:27 <oerjan> GregorR: `google gives no URL
22:38:27 <ehird> Assuming I go with a thinkpad
22:38:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Only in certain wonko cases.
22:38:43 <HackEgo> Easily Author and Administer your own Training Content, Tests, and Certification Programs Online. Test.com is Web Based Software. \ www.test.com/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
22:39:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ran into this 7 page thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7323042
22:39:10 <oerjan> Deewiant: anyway, seems to be the first hit
22:40:07 <Deewiant> Gah, I always only look for "Cached" and never notice "View as HTML"
22:40:22 <ehird> Deewiant: How about getting an OS that can handle pdfs wel
22:40:36 <Deewiant> ehird: No OS can handle a PDF 0 bytes long
22:40:39 <ais523> like, anything but Windows?
22:40:51 <ehird> Deewiant: good point
22:41:25 <ais523> $ touch /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ $ evince /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ Error: May not be a PDF file (continuing anyway) \ Error: PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table...
22:41:34 <GregorR> Most OSes don't handle PDFs at all :P
22:41:37 <ais523> and then, it decided that it was actually a plaintext file
22:41:46 <ais523> File type plain text document (text/plain) is not supported
22:41:47 <GregorR> (OS X being a notable counterexample)
22:42:24 <Gracenotes> now, to put all this data in a form JavaScript can easily work with
22:42:25 * coppro goes to see what okular does
22:42:28 <ehird> GregorR: If OS X does, Gnome sdoes
22:42:30 <Deewiant> Gah, byorgey manages to do it in about 8 lines
22:43:02 <coppro> which is interesting; it can handle misnamed JPGs
22:43:02 <GregorR> ehird: OK, I see your argument. Admittedly I'm using a pretty arbitrary definition of "OS"
22:43:11 <ais523> coppro: as in, bad extension?
22:43:14 <Deewiant> But hah, I can define pSet in one line
22:43:21 <coppro> nope, that's the entire error
22:43:36 <ais523> or just a jpeg called "porn.jpg" when it's actually goatse?
22:43:41 -!- Sneezle has left (?).
22:43:47 <ais523> file(1) can tell jpegs from non-jpegs relatively reliably
22:43:56 <coppro> no, it can handle JPEGs with a .pdf extension
22:43:56 <ais523> unless the non-jpeg is pretending to be a jpeg for some reason
22:43:59 <GregorR> Arguably, goatse is porn, and so porn.jpg is a legit name for it :P
22:44:04 <coppro> but it apparently can't handle a zero-byte file
22:44:06 <ehird> yeah i was about to say
22:44:09 <ehird> goatse was made as porn
22:44:12 <ais523> coppro: it probably isn't looking at the extension at all, it'll be looking for the magic number
22:44:26 <coppro> which is the right thing to do
22:44:37 <ais523> suffices on filenames are just a matter of convention in UNIX-alikes
22:44:48 <ais523> and magic numbers are the usual way to identify the type of a file, even though they're unreliable
22:47:15 <ehird> Because, hey, it's not as if we could make files objects and have them know what type they are.
22:47:52 <ehird> ais523: same way as unix
22:47:56 <ehird> I think plumbing uses file extensions
22:48:11 <Deewiant> Ah, never mind, his short implementation is horribly inefficient and the good one is fairly long
22:48:15 <ais523> clearly, we need MIME extensions, to annoy everyone equally
22:48:42 <ais523> as in, textfile.text/plain
22:48:44 <GregorR> ais523: I organize my files by MIME type.
22:48:48 <oerjan> Deewiant: moreover, it is actually wrong :)
22:48:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so you suggest like mac os?
22:49:02 <ais523> GregorR: I don't believe you, but major props if you're actually telling the truth
22:49:03 <ehird> No, that system has many flaws.
22:49:04 <oerjan> as he explains further down, it only works for _sets_
22:49:14 <Deewiant> oerjan: Yeah, but he fixes that
22:49:22 <ehird> I merely argue for objects; those things we use in our programs: and it is never "magic" what type an object is.
22:49:26 <Gracenotes> NO WINDOWS, I'LL RESTART WHEN I WANT. STOP IT WITH YOUR STUPID DIALOGS.
22:49:29 <ehird> It's simple, direct, useful and reliable.
22:49:42 <Deewiant> And comes up with some O(n!) algorithm or so
22:49:56 <Deewiant> I think that's pretty much what I had earlier
22:50:13 <Deewiant> (It was unusably slow after 9 prime factors)
22:50:19 <Gracenotes> is there some way to make yourself think that you can make Windows feel physical pain?
22:50:29 <ais523> Gracenotes: I like the restart dialog here on Ubuntu, if you choose 'restart later' it actually goes away and stays away
22:50:36 <Gracenotes> like, an app that emits suffering noises when you click a button?
22:50:52 <ehird> Gracenotes: infect every process with a virus that churns in an infinite useless loop and that continually makes it ruin the cache
22:50:58 <ehird> so it accesses memory more, does more task switching, ...
22:51:11 <Gracenotes> ais523: that is convenient, but not when it pops up every 10 minutes
22:51:26 <ais523> Gracenotes: that's the point, it doesn't pop up unless something else happens which would require a restart
22:51:42 <Gracenotes> it's a regular update. I'll restart when I want to. grrr.
22:51:44 <ais523> and the only thing that requires a restart is a kernel update
22:52:07 <ehird> ais523: good luck having a libc update apply fully
22:52:10 <Gracenotes> not in XP's opinion. I long to get my Ubuntu back :/
22:52:11 <ehird> yeah, you can do it with runlevels
22:52:17 <Gracenotes> ehird: I want Windows as an entity to suffer, but not me, the victim having to use it
22:52:17 <ehird> congrats, you're still "rebooting".
22:52:26 <ais523> ehird: oh, I don't generally care about fully-applied
22:52:38 <ais523> that'll happen at the next reboot; until then, I just have a new libc that not everything is using
22:52:38 <ehird> Gracenotes: you should run the virus after starting a bunch of bloated programs like every Office tool, and then just leave it for an hour
22:52:58 <ehird> then, when it tells you it's accessing the hard drive (code that in), hit reset in the middle
22:53:01 <ehird> your torture is complete
22:53:06 <ehird> it will not disobey you further
22:53:17 <ehird> ofc, run a benchmark tool
22:53:19 <ehird> that simulates using office, etc
22:53:22 <Gracenotes> jeez, what happened to simple low-tech solutions like driving to Redmond and throwing bricks through the Window?
22:53:28 <ais523> couldn't you use the hard drive access light to see if the hard-drive was being activated
22:53:33 <ais523> Gracenotes: it works better with a capital
22:53:38 <ehird> that isn't hurting windows!
22:53:46 <ehird> well, microsoft's building
22:53:53 <ehird> and maybe a microsoft employee or two
22:53:53 <ais523> ehird: but, it's the Window
22:53:57 <ais523> on which Windows is based
22:53:57 <ehird> ais523: but it does it constantly
22:54:01 <ehird> as opposed to intermittently
22:54:09 <ehird> so that you KNOW resetting will mess it up
22:54:21 <ehird> oh, do this with as little ram as possibl
22:54:23 <AnMaster> ais523, would be fun if there was an official window it was based on :D
22:54:26 <ehird> and underclock your CPU and ram as much as you can
22:54:36 <ais523> ehird: some CPUs can be underclocked al the way down to DC
22:54:48 <ehird> ais523: what, 50hz?
22:55:01 <ais523> it never has any cycles at all
22:55:01 <Gracenotes> ehird: er.. I do have an ext3 partition mounted, but the tool doesn't support journaling. your advice might not turn out great...
22:55:08 <ehird> ais523: that's rather useless :P
22:55:12 <ehird> Gracenotes: disable it
22:55:14 <ehird> we're just torturing windows here
22:55:16 <Gracenotes> I don't want to damage my beautiful ext3
22:55:24 <ais523> ehird: you go down to DC if you want to step through assembly code manually
22:55:28 <Gracenotes> if only I could actually boot to it, though :/
22:55:28 <ais523> without using a debugger
22:55:35 <ehird> ais523: seriously? :D
22:55:49 <ais523> generally speaking, that's mostly useful for testing the processors themselves, though
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22:56:15 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, oh? some new hardware recently?
22:56:15 <ais523> ehird: by changing the DC level from its high voltage level to its low voltage level and back again
22:56:43 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: it happened updating to Ubuntu 8.10
22:57:07 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, also, restore from backup before update
22:57:07 <Gracenotes> I haven't touched this laptop for a while
22:57:24 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure it will tell you to back up before upgrade
22:57:33 <AnMaster> and surely you didn't ignore that?
22:57:49 <AnMaster> it might have been in the release notes you didn't read ;P
22:58:03 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, depends on how you took the backup
22:58:43 <Gracenotes> sadly, I didn't; all the files on here are already duplicated on another hard drive, but those files don't include drivers/xorg.conf/the like
22:59:04 <Gracenotes> I'll probably end up doing a fresh reinstall
22:59:39 <ehird> i've never backed up
22:59:56 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, try arch or gentoo
23:00:10 <AnMaster> for a laptop ubuntu may be nicer
23:00:10 <ehird> he just hates non-rolling-release distros.
23:00:22 <Gracenotes> the issue is HP 2133 and its fucked up driver requirements
23:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, rolling ubuntu would be nice
23:00:33 <Gracenotes> note the "HP" in the name. That says it all, I hope.
23:00:38 <ehird> rolling ubuntu would be un-buntu.
23:00:49 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, not to me. I'm very happy with my HP-printer :P
23:00:57 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, no idea about their laptops
23:01:43 <Gracenotes> yes, try googling for information on ubuntu with the mininote. So many contradictory instructions, and my knowledge of Linux graphics is next to nil, particularly the workings of xorg.conf and why the heck it's not working
23:01:44 <ehird> hp 2133 seems to be a netbook
23:01:50 <ehird> it's the one I saw at the store, I think
23:02:06 <ehird> regardless, a ~9" screen is ridiculous
23:02:16 <ehird> they call it "large", lol
23:02:20 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, new ubuntu doesn't use it
23:02:23 <Gracenotes> true. you get used to it... it's all I have
23:03:14 <ehird> you can't replace and not drop
23:03:18 <ehird> therefore dropped and replaced is inherently redundant
23:04:06 <ehird> Q: What's odd about how Google and Amazon talk internally?
23:04:22 <ehird> A: It it it it goes goes goes goes like like like like this this this this.
23:04:24 <ehird> (yeah lame I know)
23:04:48 <Gracenotes> as opposed to, uh, extrinsically redundant
23:05:17 <ehird> wonderful, an installation step failed
23:05:22 <ehird> AnMaster: redundancy
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23:05:59 <Gracenotes> now, to effectively partition both upwards and downwards dags into subgraphs
23:07:36 <pikhq> Why, I've got Internet!
23:09:14 * ehird tries the 6.06 mini.iso
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23:11:43 <ais523> pikhq: it would be more fun if you were here without Internet
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01:59:10 <ehird> This is my 5,113rd day on the planet.
01:59:41 <ehird> In approximately 8 hours, it will be my 122,721st hour on this planet.
02:01:29 <ehird> In other words, it's my birthday.
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02:02:34 <oklopol> i'd buy you a cake but you'd just eat it.
02:02:49 <ehird> Hey, I might have sex with it first.
02:02:55 <ehird> No wait, I'm not legal yet.
02:03:03 <ehird> It's two years until that happens. :P
02:04:11 <oklopol> how does it feel to know you'll be intercoursing vigorously 24/7 in just two years
02:04:26 <ehird> oklopol: i sort of doubt that
02:04:51 <ehird> oklopol: sure, how much
02:04:59 <oklopol> EHIRD'S VIRGINITY, PLACE YOUR BETS NOW
02:05:15 <oklopol> err, i'm not sure about the 24/7 part
02:05:36 <ehird> I bet £50 I'll be a virgin when I turn 17
02:05:51 <ehird> (16 being the consenterent)
02:06:09 <oklopol> but if you want to bet on when you'll be losing your virginity, sure, as long as the amount is not enough to make you turn a chick down :P
02:07:10 <ehird> oklopol: what if it's enough to make me turn a guy down
02:07:25 <oklopol> ehird: i'm in. assuming we're both still here, and one of us remembers
02:07:37 <ehird> oklopol is preparing for extremely early onset alzheimer's
02:08:03 <oklopol> "oklopol, i wanked today, how would you like your share?"
02:08:13 <ehird> it may have been a joke oklopol
02:08:33 <oklopol> sure, sure, i just wanted to make my own stupider one.
02:08:47 <oklopol> also you can't turn an animal down, they're too cuddly
02:09:12 <ehird> oklopol clearly knows a lot about fucking animals
02:09:14 <ehird> anyway what's your bet
02:09:17 <oklopol> so, umm, is the bet on now
02:09:35 <ehird> you haven't bet an amount, dick
02:09:58 <oklopol> we should probably choose one of those
02:10:08 <ehird> what if i get a sex change
02:10:13 <ehird> define "virginity", precisely
02:10:17 <oklopol> i'm also preparing for extremely early onset inflation
02:10:51 <oklopol> getting fucked / fucking someone / maybe blowjob done to you?
02:10:59 <ehird> bill clinton disagrees
02:11:18 <oklopol> fucking being the act of entering, here
02:11:46 <oklopol> some prefer to use the asymmetry to convey the active fucker
02:12:11 <GregorR> In mere hours my wonderful yeasty friends have built quite bit of pressure!
02:12:22 <ehird> what about handjobs, how do they factor in eh
02:12:23 <ehird> WHAT ABOUT TELEPORTING INTO SOMEONE'S STOMACH
02:12:34 <ehird> or even vagina, does that count as entering
02:12:34 <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
02:12:37 <ehird> i never entered, just appeared
02:12:42 <ehird> oklopol: what's the difference
02:12:52 <GregorR> `addquote <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
02:12:53 <HackEgo> 74|<oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
02:13:02 <oklopol> ehird: some say a chick fucks a dude if she's doing the moving
02:13:16 <ehird> [02:12] oklopol: GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
02:13:30 <ehird> [02:12] ehird: what about handjobs, how do they factor in eh
02:13:30 <ehird> [02:12] ehird: WHAT ABOUT TELEPORTING INTO SOMEONE'S STOMACH
02:13:31 <ehird> [02:12] ehird: or even vagina, does that count as entering
02:13:34 <ehird> pressing questions
02:13:42 <oklopol> i am fine with leaving teleporting unspecified
02:14:20 <oklopol> i'd say if you get a handjob, you've lost it, if you give a handjob, then not... really anything involving your special parts.
02:14:54 <ehird> what if someone causes me to spontaneously orgasm, on purpose
02:15:34 <oklopol> maybe not, i'm fine with considering that self-afflicted
02:15:51 <oklopol> even if it's not technically true in the case of magical mind control
02:16:07 <ehird> oklopol: what if the singularity happens and i give someone a reference to my absolute-joy method
02:16:17 <ehird> is that method reference part of my "private parts"
02:16:20 <ehird> considering i no longer have a body
02:16:32 <oklopol> that's definitely losing it
02:17:11 <oklopol> anyway aren't there standards for this stuff, i don't want to go through all this hassle everytime i bet on someone's virginity :|
02:17:18 <ehird> oklopol: what if they discover a security flaw and call it against my permission, that's basically rape right
02:17:39 <oklopol> ehird: yes, but i'd say that counts
02:18:07 <ehird> is this just an elaborate set up to rape me
02:18:26 <oklopol> well clearly you must want it if you're going to pay me for it!
02:19:28 <oklopol> maybe i just want to know exactly when and how you lose your virginity?
02:19:32 <ehird> oklopol: anyway submit an RFC
02:20:23 <oklopol> sounds like something that might offend someone
02:20:41 <ehird> anyway it's trivial to save up £50
02:20:51 <oklopol> ARE YOU SAYING US PEOPLE WITHOUT GENITALIA CAN'T LOSE OUR VIRGINITY WHEN WE HAVE STORY SEX?
02:21:07 <ehird> oklopol: hmm that's a point, what if i lose my sex organs
02:21:13 <ehird> and get prosthetic, mechanic ones
02:21:20 <ehird> i.e., cyborg penis
02:21:23 <oklopol> then you win. in fact i'll pay you 60 out of pity.
02:21:47 <oklopol> ah, that you *do* have sex
02:22:40 <oklopol> yes, but if you lose your sex organs then you don't have sex; except for cyborg penis... i'm not sure what to say about that
02:22:50 <ehird> well does a penis transplant count
02:23:08 <ehird> i'd say yes, obviously
02:23:13 <oklopol> some guys turn gay receivers when they lose their genitalia, just to be able to have at least some sorta sex
02:23:22 <ehird> well does a penis transplant count
02:24:07 <ehird> oklopol: so, we accept that the genitalia used do not have to be what i currently have
02:24:27 <oklopol> i'd say "whatever you count as your primary sex organ", but then again even if you consider that to be your middle finger, and you still have your penis...
02:24:27 <ehird> so, if a cyborg penis is the same general shape, in the same place, and does much the same I/O to my brain
02:24:44 <oklopol> i guess i'm old-fashioned that way, i'd say the penis is still what determines virginity
02:25:11 <ehird> what if i spontaneously grow a vagina.
02:25:35 <oklopol> you do realize this could go on forever :D
02:26:16 <oklopol> yes, very. but you know graph theory
02:26:29 <ehird> well, just answer the vag question
02:28:00 <oklopol> if you spontaneously grow a vagina, using it for vaginal purposes will lead yo losing your virginity.
02:28:05 <oklopol> but, this is a tricky issue again
02:28:18 <ehird> what if I penetrate someone with my anus
02:28:52 <oklopol> i mean, say you get a rimjob, i wouldn't say you've lost your virginity. but i might say that if you do the same thing with your vag... assuming the less strict definition that allows things like blowjobs
02:29:49 <oklopol> ...could you just, you know, maybe not do that?
02:30:15 <oklopol> you would've be able to learn such a zen skill in just three years
02:30:32 <ehird> should i take that as a challenge
02:33:31 <ehird> ubuntu did you give me a graphical environment
02:34:55 <ehird> just a graphical startup
02:35:44 <ais523> nothing graphical but the splashscreen!
02:36:03 * ais523 looks forwards to when splashscreens have 3D animation
02:36:28 * ehird looks forward to when no splashscreens exist
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02:43:09 <oklopol> party boy killed by three clubs in face
02:43:12 <Sgeo> Happy birthday ehird!
02:43:28 <ehird> i'm not technically 14 yet, so this feels kind of hollow
02:44:05 <Sgeo> ehird, because of the time, or because you gave a wrong date?
02:44:07 <oklopol> i think back when i was 14, i still had some sorta birthday parties, like went out drinking
02:44:33 <oklopol> after 16, i've usually just ignored all human contact as much as possible and hoped no one notices
02:45:05 <oklopol> i usually lie my birthday is in a few weeks here a bit before my birthday just in case someone remembers when i have it
02:45:17 <oklopol> so they're like "oh it's not yet"
02:45:32 <ehird> I've never had a birthday party
02:45:41 <ehird> to hell with kids :P
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02:46:51 <oklopol> i used to feign being social all the time when i was your age
02:47:12 <oklopol> i guess that's why i'm such a fucking retard now
02:47:23 <oklopol> should've spent that time learning
02:47:46 <oklopol> no i'm not, i suck at the important things.
02:55:29 <oklopol> despite my ongoing efforts to explain to them that math isn't about numbers
02:56:56 <Sgeo> It's not a bad thing to play a WoW clone, is it?
02:57:11 <oklopol> all my irl friends play wow
02:57:29 <Sgeo> I mean, as opposed to actual WoW.
02:57:36 <ehird> ais523: how can I reset my xorg config to default
02:57:40 * Sgeo wants to try Runes of Magic
02:57:40 <ehird> is the file somewhere
02:57:48 <ehird> ah it backed it up
03:02:40 <ehird> $ sudo cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf{.20090822042059,}
03:02:42 <ehird> $ sudo rm /etc/X11/xorg.conf{.20090822042059,}
03:07:31 <ais523> ehird: you deleted the new copy as well as the old one
03:07:59 <ais523> hmm... why didn't you just use mv?
03:11:40 <ehird> back in da hizzouse
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04:11:13 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Creamsoda_3ltr.jpg lawl
04:11:26 <GregorR> Their picture of cream soda is an Irish brand labeled "American Cream Soda"
04:11:38 <ehird> it looks like water
04:20:15 <GregorR> What does your cream soda look like? Caramel-colored? (Both exist here)
04:20:35 <ehird> i've never seen any ;|
04:21:21 <GregorR> I keep forgetting that the USA is the Mecca of soda :P
04:21:29 <pikhq> The US invented it.
04:21:32 <pikhq> We have all t3h soda.
04:21:43 <pikhq> Except for Japanese soda.
04:23:16 <GregorR> pikhq: Ever had red cream soda?
04:23:26 <GregorR> (e.g. Big Red or Barq's Red Cream Soda)
04:23:51 <ehird> googling suggests it's lemonade in a fucked up bottle
04:24:35 <GregorR> Highly not-recommended to retrieve the marble.
04:25:13 <pikhq> GregorR: Yes. It is quite delicious.
04:25:25 <ehird> ... the marble? oh, red thing
04:25:29 <pikhq> ehird: It's not lemonade. It's a vaguely lemony soda.
04:25:41 <ehird> why not recom to retrv marbl
04:25:49 <pikhq> You have to break the bottle to do so.
04:26:08 <ehird> drink it, break bottle, \o/ marble \o/!!!!!
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04:29:41 <GregorR> In case you couldn't guess, /me is attempting cream soda now.
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05:43:22 <oerjan> that was awesome, then it was sad
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07:47:20 <zzo38> I wrote the first GameBoy software I wrote today.
07:47:30 <zzo38> I also copy my character-sheet into the computer today.
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10:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird: I tried outside in direct sunlight today. Hard to read, but still not impossible if at brightest setting. Impossible to read at 70% brightness in direct sunlight
10:23:37 <AnMaster> also depends on exact viewing angle it seems
10:29:33 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9d1zo/planar_the_other_nethack_ai_built_on_taeb/
10:39:06 <ais523> I think I posted a draft version of it in ##nomic earlier
10:39:13 <ais523> but now it's up, it'll be easier to refer to
10:39:52 <coppro> also, what's this in the topic involving ehird being awesome?
10:40:05 * ais523 wonders if ehird set that topic
10:40:32 -!- ais523 has set topic: ehird is so awesome that he wished himself happy birthday in the topic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
11:03:02 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the previous topic?
11:03:25 <ais523> "ehird is so awesome that we're wishing him happy birthday in the topic http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D"
11:03:55 <AnMaster> don't he realise he now forced me to not wish him happy bday
11:06:53 <ais523> I assume it /is/ his birthday?
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16:06:57 <ehird> good morning america
16:07:54 <ais523> ehird: so how old will people accuse you of being in arguments now?
16:08:07 <ais523> and how old are you actually?
16:08:32 <ais523> wow, that's expecting a surprising level of intelligence from people who resort to ad hominem attacks
16:08:35 <ehird> i guess augur nught not notice or something
16:08:49 <Pthing> ad hominems are fun for everyone
16:08:57 <Pthing> from the meanest street rat to the most erudite savant
16:09:16 <ehird> Pthing: no they're not because fuck you :P
16:09:17 <ais523> Pthing: you're just saying that because your nickname starts with a capital letter!
16:09:34 <Pthing> you have numbers in your nick, what kind of gaylord has numbers in their name
16:09:40 <Pthing> HELLO MY MUMMY CALLED ME SEVEN
16:09:52 <ais523> ehird: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9d1zo/planar_the_other_nethack_ai_built_on_taeb/
16:10:14 <Pthing> somebody made a nethack AI?
16:10:22 <ais523> Pthing: yes, many people working together
16:10:25 <ais523> ofc, it isn't finished yet
16:10:29 <Pthing> how does it work, try to be pacifist?
16:10:47 <ais523> Planar is mostly mine, and partly sorear's; the framework has many more contributors
16:11:06 <ais523> and NetHack AIs are rarely pacifist, although Planar's more cautious of monsters than most
16:11:08 <ehird> ais523: let's hope that link works
16:11:22 <ais523> ehird: why would you think it wouldn't?
16:11:23 <Pthing> yeah, i realised how stupid that was when i said it
16:11:37 <ehird> ais523: well, with this computer, rather
16:12:33 <ais523> ehird: does it have a working web browser?
16:13:00 <Pthing> if 34k is the maximum score, how do the scores distribute?
16:13:04 <ehird> yes, but it's running as root on a 500 mhz ar4m
16:13:56 <ehird> so its sort of slow
16:13:59 <ais523> Pthing: http://alt.org/nethack/player-top.php?player=TAEB523 is a sample of the games it's played online, I haven't been saving scores locally
16:14:29 <Pthing> or are those when you aborted it
16:14:30 <ais523> that's me quitting it, either to test something else or because it's hit a bug
16:16:38 <ehird> oh, and it's firefox, so that just compounds it on such slow hardware
16:16:53 <ais523> ugh, use something like epiphany instead, or even w3m
16:17:05 <ais523> which shows images by spawning a separate viewer
16:18:08 <ehird> ais523: I can't install anytghing atm
16:18:27 <ais523> but firefox is on there by default?
16:19:50 <ehird> ais523: as well as an iffy piece of software that uses a gprs modem to contact a windows server running IE or something which sends back a compressed, low-colour image
16:20:02 <ehird> they communicate text field editings and clickings.
16:20:18 <ehird> it's one of the worst ogram's ive seenpr
16:20:28 <ehird> hmm it ius a pretty bad orgasm, but a program too
16:22:27 <ehird> ais523: it's a devicey device
16:25:24 <ais523> does it have any other users?
16:26:19 <ehird> it also comes with pidgin
16:26:53 <ehird> ais523: it has other users, but they're not for human use
16:27:11 <AnMaster> ehird, is it an embedded device?
16:27:13 <ehird> including, bemusingly, www-data
16:27:26 <ehird> AnMaster: depends on your definition of embedded; it's running X
16:27:31 <ehird> and I'm conversing with it
16:27:48 <ais523> what's the device's intended function?
16:27:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well, in this case I meant something like a phone, PDA, robot controller or whatever
16:28:21 <ehird> except I'm meant to be outside of wifi range, usign their awful gprs IEcompressed browser thing
16:28:54 <ais523> ehird: I mean, is it a phone? or some sort of cordless internet tablet? or what?
16:29:15 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing you would have heard of; nothing *I've* heard of
16:29:35 <ehird> ais523: Not either; closer to the second
16:30:46 <AnMaster> ehird, is it some portable device?
16:30:50 <ehird> It has a screen that is connected to it; the screen is part of it rather than something I have connected.
16:31:11 <AnMaster> if not, where/how did you find/get/steal/whatever it?
16:31:20 <ehird> AnMaster: (1) Yes; as implied by [a] gprs, [b] "out of wifi range",
16:31:48 <ehird> (2) Yes, unless I stole it from a sentient couch-hobo hybrid and later forgot about it
16:32:22 <AnMaster> ehird, right, just wanted to confirm that. I once saw a public info screen in a museum with an error saying it couldn't connect to the AP <some MAC I forgot>
16:32:48 <ais523> well, by observing error messages and job offers, I've concluded that around here, the busses run Windows and the trains run Linux
16:32:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so where did you get it from?
16:33:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I am uncertain.
16:33:13 <ais523> AnMaster: even worse, the busses are running Windows /2000/
16:33:23 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe you *did* forget it then
16:33:30 <ais523> I couldn't conclude what version of the various bits of Linux the trains were running, though
16:33:39 <AnMaster> ais523, um. In the brake controlling system or what?
16:33:48 <ais523> AnMaster: no, for the entertainment
16:34:03 <ais523> I wouldn't trust a bus's brakes to Windows 2000
16:34:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I have not, as far as I remember, forgotten.
16:34:19 <ais523> but they have little screens which show adverts and things like weather forecasts and puzzles
16:34:34 <ais523> which are basically Powerpoints in a loop, except that the Windows one works via IE (I'm not sure how the Linux one works)
16:34:58 * ehird continues the perilous process of loading the tunes logs on this thing
16:35:05 <ehird> It might run out of its RAM; all 128MB of it.
16:35:08 <ais523> ehird: did you manage to load my link?
16:35:25 <ehird> Then its swap space on the lavish 1024 megabyte SSD!
16:35:39 <ehird> ais523: the reddit link, yes; I will load the blogspot link now
16:36:32 <ais523> ehird: OK, that's quite a big SSD; my third-year project was on a Linux device with 128MB RAM but 64MB SSD space
16:36:37 <ehird> The log list redirects to /~lar1/logs while it is loading. Anyone else having this problem?
16:36:45 <ehird> ais523: As I said; lavish!
16:36:53 <ais523> how unusual to have something with more memory than disk space...
16:37:23 <ais523> we decided a swap partition was probably a bad idea
16:37:38 <ehird> The fonts on this are very crisp and pretty.
16:38:53 <ehird> Hint: I am, in fact, using a real keyboard.
16:39:00 <ehird> 23:47:20 <zzo38> I wrote the first GameBoy software I wrote today.
16:39:10 <ais523> I had fun parsing that sentence
16:39:12 <ehird> zzo, master of tautologies
16:39:25 <ais523> and only tautologous one way round
16:39:36 <ehird> the other way around it's inv alid
16:39:56 <ehird> oh, I had loaded the blogspot link; just forgot. Will read after tunes.
16:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, is it a netbook of some sort?
16:42:08 <ehird> "Ubisurf"; it's quite thoroughly cheap and is marketed on the "Free unholy GPRS internet (*30 hours/mo)" thing.
16:42:16 <ehird> It's not locked down, I'm root!
16:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, true. Badly designed though
16:42:41 <ehird> It even has an xterm in the customised menu.
16:43:12 <ehird> I'm going to boot into Damn Small Linux soon via a 1GB SD card plugged into a USB printer/scanner/whatever
16:43:24 <ehird> No USB stick and my USB SD card reader doesn't work :D
16:43:50 <ehird> The screen is 7", which sounds smaller than it looks.
16:44:40 * ehird keeps hitting the touchpad-click tap accidentally.
16:44:52 <ehird> Time to try and boot into DSL. Save any messages for then.
16:44:57 -!- ehird has left (?).
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17:05:54 <ehird> Duh, no BIOS, of course.
17:06:22 <ehird> Anyone want to help me boot via USB on an ARM machine? :-)
17:07:52 <ehird> Strange and unknown platform! Thrilling! Anyone? :P
17:08:18 <ehird> ...hmm, I wrote an x86 image anyway.
17:09:15 <ehird> Anyone know a livecd type thingy that supports ARM? :-\
17:11:20 <ais523> several distros support ARM
17:11:25 <ais523> both Debian and Ubuntu do, I think
17:11:30 <ais523> and presumably they have LiveCD versions
17:11:43 <ehird> the issue is in the presumably clause
17:12:03 <ehird> anyway, ubuntu doesn;t support PPC; are you sure it does ARM? Besides, Ubuntu isntalls in like 4GB
17:12:23 <ehird> Debian doesn't have a livecd afaik
17:12:36 <ehird> Just a livecd-based installer
17:14:23 <ehird> ais523: this is all academic unless I can actually get it to boot from USB, though
17:14:56 <ehird> ais523: hmm, wow, this system comes with Gnash
17:15:21 <ais523> wow as in it doesn't actually work for anything but simple flash games, so why did they bother/
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17:16:13 <ehird> ais523: I'm just surprised, since nobody at all knows what Gnash is; and indeed it's not very useful
17:16:25 -!- Halph has joined.
17:16:55 <ais523> oh, and Google wrote an SVG renderer in Flash, in the hope of making SVG catch on more
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17:17:20 <ehird> parting and rejoining to try and regain my text cursor...
17:17:22 -!- ehird has left (?).
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17:18:12 <ehird> what did I miss, if anything?
17:18:43 <Deewiant> 2009-08-22 19:17:32 --> Halph is now known as coppro
17:19:25 <ehird> Deewiant: nowt is a british term; you are not allowed to use it if you are not british
17:19:28 <ehird> cease and desist immediately
17:23:02 <ehird> Deewiant: i will sue you in a court of lwa in trenton, new jersey
17:23:04 <ehird> in capital letters
17:23:58 <Deewiant> What will you charge me with, I wonder
17:24:24 <ehird> Using "nowt" while not being british
17:28:20 <ehird> Apparently it's in the first hour of jan 1 1970
17:29:04 <ais523> ehird: misspelling "law" rather removes the effect
17:30:05 <Deewiant> Using "nowt" falls under freedom of speech; your lawsuit will fizzle
17:30:23 <ehird> Deewiant: But will it fizzie
17:31:09 <ehird> "Maybe it will, ehird."
17:31:28 <ehird> I love how my CPU meter maxes out visiting simple web pages
17:32:05 <Deewiant> It somewhat sucks that these days you can't intentionally state something like that in writing, since people will just assume you fail at commas
17:32:56 <ehird> Also, "Maybe it will <name>" is... very rarely semantic.
17:33:13 <ehird> (semantic, adj. having, of or in relation to semantics)
17:33:28 <Deewiant> There are (presumably) other, more sensible cases, though
17:34:24 <Deewiant> I don't know, hence "presumably"
17:34:34 <ehird> "The certificate chain presented for nexus.passport.com is not valid."
17:34:39 <ehird> Dammit, Pidgin, I don't care
17:34:44 <ehird> Just let me connect to MSN :(
17:37:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
17:37:58 <ais523> isn't there an unfixed known security hole in Pidgin's MSN library atm?
17:38:41 * Sgeo remembers receiving an update for something along those lines, so how is it unfixed?
17:39:19 <ehird> ais523: I really don't care
17:39:42 <Sgeo> Also, pidgin-facebookchat is awesome
17:39:58 -!- ehird has quit ("Leaving.").
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17:40:53 * ehird uses "HTTP method"
17:41:00 <ehird> did i miss anything
17:41:04 <ehird> also by connect, i mean to msn
17:41:11 <ais523> --> ehird has joined this channel (n=root@91.105.82.86).
17:41:29 <ais523> that device is just going around broadcasting "I know nothing of security" to everything it connects to
17:42:03 <ehird> the http method didn't work :(
17:42:20 <ehird> you can stop calling it a device now, I revealed what it is
17:43:27 <GregorR> Technically you could rename "root" to "admin" and then just create a user account called "root"
17:45:01 <Sgeo> Or just have ident or whatever lie?
17:45:01 <ehird> Anyway, someone help me boot via USB on this thing
17:45:43 <Deewiant> Finding the optimal Funge code to push a given number is tricky :-/
17:46:54 <Sgeo> Wouldn't brute-force ultimately work?
17:46:56 <Slereah> I'm pretty sure it's possible
17:47:02 <Slereah> Maybe not efficiently, but well
17:47:24 <Slereah> Like you could just do every program bigger and bigger until you find the smallest that does that
17:47:42 <ehird> Slereah: halting problem
17:47:53 <ehird> you could do it given infinite time
17:48:20 <Slereah> ehird : Well, he's looking for the most efficient one
17:48:23 <Deewiant> You don't need infinite time, there are trivial upper bounds on the length of the generating program
17:48:41 <Slereah> It's both a program you know exist, halts and is of small size
17:49:24 <Sgeo> You could set a maximum run time
17:49:38 <ehird> Sgeo: then it may be suboptimal
17:49:39 <Deewiant> Trivial lower bounds on the length are also calculatable, of course (but not very helpful)
17:49:44 <ehird> this is trivial stuff guys
17:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why would root need to be the actual interactive user on it?
17:49:58 <ehird> the poitn is that you cant bruteforce it
17:50:00 <Sgeo> ehird, in terms of characters, maybe
17:50:04 <ehird> because any given program might not halt
17:50:23 <Sgeo> I think it would make sense to optimize for both characters and run time
17:50:30 <ehird> you can't know whether it's infinilooping or taking 500 years to produce the number
17:50:32 <Deewiant> Okay, let's interject here and specify the problem a bit more to what I was thinking (and have been doing)
17:50:41 <ehird> AnMaster: it does not have to be.
17:50:45 <Slereah> ehird : If it takes 500 years, is it really optimal?
17:50:57 <Deewiant> Use only: '"*+-/: and the numbers [0-9a-f]
17:50:58 <ehird> well, for the upgrades; they're shell scripts
17:51:01 <Sgeo> Slereah, it may be optimal in terms of amount of code.
17:51:05 <ehird> Slereah: Optimal for characters, obviously
17:51:10 <ehird> Deewiant: well that is trivial
17:51:27 <Deewiant> is probably pointless so that can be lost
17:51:38 <Slereah> Also you could just find a random program of such length, set it as the maximum, and run every smaller programs at the same time
17:51:50 <Slereah> Then you could do it in finite time
17:51:59 <Sgeo> Slereah, optimizing for runtime instead of characters?
17:52:06 <ehird> Deewiant: uhh it's just like the and
17:52:17 <Slereah> Well, optimizing for runtime could have infinite length I guess
17:52:23 <ehird> Deewiant: bruteforce it; chips are fast
17:52:28 <Deewiant> ehird: I've tried; they're not
17:52:39 <ehird> APART FROM THIS CHIP
17:52:43 <ehird> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
17:53:00 <ehird> maybe your mom fails at brute forcing
17:53:07 <ehird> give me an example lower/upper bounds
17:53:14 <ehird> that bruteforcing has failed at
17:54:08 <Deewiant> Well, for instance let's pick the number 20000
17:54:19 <ehird> as an upper bound in characters?
17:54:34 <ehird> Gimme an upper bound
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17:55:42 <Deewiant> Or possibly 4 actually, but anyway
17:57:01 <ehird> 852891037441 possibilities and that's just in the upper bound
17:57:20 <ehird> 31 characters allowed = 31 bits
17:57:40 <Deewiant> ' and " can be used to push any byte
17:58:14 <ehird> Just start at the lower bound
17:58:19 <Deewiant> Of course that includes other stuff, but still
17:58:26 <ehird> A rare number that cannot be reduced
17:58:27 <Deewiant> ehird: In this case, I think the upper bound is accurate
17:59:31 <Deewiant> That's still 282578800082945 to 72340172838010880 programs to try
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18:00:30 <ehird> Well, brute force smaller programsf irst
18:00:51 <ehird> fx just crashed; guess im out of ram
18:00:52 <Deewiant> What do you mean, brute force smaller ones?
18:01:27 <ehird> Deewiant: try all numberfunge(31 char subset base) progs of length lower,lower+1,...,upper-1,upper
18:01:37 <Deewiant> Like said, that's going to try at least around 282578800082945 programs since it can't be done in 6
18:01:42 <ehird> as soon as you find one generating the number, stop
18:01:54 <ehird> Get a supercomputer
18:02:24 <Deewiant> I'll add another criterion: nobody needs to buy any new hardware for this to work :-P
18:02:50 <Deewiant> And ask it to tell me the answer?
18:02:53 <ais523> Deewiant: find someone who already has a quantum computer, and use that
18:03:06 <ehird> Deewiant: no, just enjoy it
18:03:31 <ais523> although it might be a pain to run; quantum computers are annoying to program in an imperative style because they have to have fixed control flow
18:03:48 <ais523> (although note: that doesn't prevent TCness)
18:03:59 <ais523> actually, we need an esolang whose control flow is fixed, really
18:04:04 <ais523> as an example of how it's possible to make such languages TC
18:04:05 <ehird> 840x480 isn't all that bad of a resolution
18:04:10 <Deewiant> Quantum computers aren't the magical solution to all problems anyway :-P
18:04:21 <Sgeo> Ebon Musings : Sgeo :: Overcoming Bias : Warrigal_
18:04:23 <ais523> is that like a widescreen 640x480?
18:07:33 <ehird> as seen in this device
18:07:34 <ehird> incidentally, it's 1:20 of 1 jan '70, still according to it
18:07:38 <ehird> I'm not certain it has a hardware clock
18:07:59 <ais523> ehird: probably it does, but not a persistent one
18:09:05 <ehird> ais523: isn't it possible to have the os save it to disk?
18:09:12 <ehird> and resume it on startup
18:09:21 <ehird> that doesn't help if time passes
18:09:22 <ais523> ehird: ingenious, but it's not normally set up like that
18:09:29 <Warrigal_> s/Overcoming Bias/Less Wrong/, I think.
18:09:33 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately flawed, see ^
18:09:44 <ais523> I know one machine I used didn't save the time, but it did save /dev/random's internal state
18:09:57 <ais523> because it didn't have much chance to collect entropy, and didn't want to lose its valuable entropy across a reboot
18:10:21 <ais523> it used /dev/urandom for ssh just so it wouldn't take half an hour to log in
18:10:37 <Warrigal_> But I should look at Ebon Musings.
18:12:05 <ehird> ais523: continue? they used it to set the clock somehow?
18:12:05 <ehird> or was it just a statement
18:12:24 <ais523> ehird: that's the end of the story
18:12:59 <ehird> was the system related to cryptography in some way?
18:19:16 <ehird> it seems that if i switch windows with al-tab instead of clicking, it's faster
18:21:39 <ais523> ehird: no, the system wasn't crypto-related, although ssh does crypto no matter what system it's on
18:22:05 <ais523> there was no actual security risk as the only way it was ever connected to things was over a crosswired ethernet cable which wasn't visible from outside networks
18:22:09 <ais523> but it didn't know that, you see
18:22:25 <ais523> (oh, and we connected the serial debug console up to HyperTerminal sometimes, as well)
18:22:54 <ehird> I'm just wondering why /dev/random was so unholily slow
18:22:54 * ehird disables javascript
18:28:18 <pikhq> ehird: Obtaining entropy from devices not dedicated to it is rather slow.
18:39:06 * Sgeo goes to try to find any videos relating to a 2003 movie that was never released
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19:08:51 <AnMaster> `addquote * ehird disables javascript
19:08:52 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
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20:14:10 <zzo38> Have you ever written a WordPerfect clone for GameBoy?
20:14:54 <Sgeo> A friend has a Jonas Brothers Live Video Chat application on Facebook. Apparently, every time she says something, it changes her status, so her profile page is now FILLED with everything she said
20:17:05 <zzo38> You know you're a bad D&D player when your character dies before the game even starts.
20:17:34 <zzo38> You are bad D&D player, if, You manage to fall into lava right after the game starts. Every time. Even if there is none.
20:20:36 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/CcLJb.png
20:22:16 <zzo38> I get a "404 - Image not found" message but the HTTP response code is still "200 OK"
20:22:43 <Sgeo> I deleted it, I accidentally left names in there
20:23:01 <Sgeo> That's interesting that it's 200, though
20:23:44 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/0FXcp.png
20:26:10 <AnMaster> <zzo38> Have you ever written a WordPerfect clone for GameBoy? <-- what answer did you expect?
20:28:00 <zzo38> Just to see if anyone ever considered any such thing (it is unlike to be done)
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20:28:52 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0dnd/Vyb gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0dnd/5dashes
20:30:59 <Sgeo> XChat doesn't even make those clickable
20:31:48 <zzo38> Then copy/paste them. If that doesn't work you can also use netcat (connect to zzo38computer.cjb.net:70 and send "dnd/Vyb" (without the quotes)) to receive the file
20:32:05 <Sgeo> Works perfectly in Firefox 3.5
20:32:13 <Sgeo> Well, maybe not perfectly. Maybe I'm missing stuff
20:32:50 <zzo38> What things might you be missing?
20:33:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:34:02 <Sgeo> zzo38, I remember something about gopher having information below every listing, and Firefox not displaying those.
20:34:06 <zzo38> Type 0 files on port 70 should work correctly anywhere (if they are plain ASCII, which these files are).
20:34:11 <Sgeo> May I ask why you use gopher?
20:34:19 <Sgeo> zzo38, I'm browsing around your gopher site
20:34:45 <zzo38> That information is for Gopher+ only. It isn't displaying it because it isn't there.
20:35:52 <zzo38> Anything that isn't a type 0 file might not work correctly in all clients. Specifically, the Hangman game won't work except on Vonkeror (and possibly other clients that support client-brainfuck-over-gopher)
20:37:00 <zzo38> Here's a rendering of my root gopher menu (the menu has been updated since then) in Vonkeror: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/screenshots/screenshot_003.png
20:37:44 <zzo38> Of course, Vonkeror supports HTTP as well, it is primarily a web-browser!
20:38:40 <zzo38> The files I listed are two character sheets of players in the D&D game I am in.
20:38:47 <zzo38> One of them is mine and one is my brother.
20:39:25 <Sgeo> Is it supposed to be an esobrowser?
20:39:39 <Sgeo> I fully support the idea of an esobrowser >.>
20:39:57 <zzo38> No, it is just a web-browser I wrote because I didn't like most other web-browser programs.
20:40:54 <zzo38> The hangman game was written in BrainClub and then compiled.
20:41:10 <zzo38> The code for hangman game is available on the esolang wiki page for BrainClub: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/BrainClub
20:43:40 <zzo38> Do you like my character-sheet?
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20:45:14 * Sgeo isn't much of a D&D person, didn't really look it over
20:45:58 <zzo38> O, that's why. Does any people you know play D&D at all? Do you know anything about rules for D&D at all?
20:46:15 <Slereah> I wanted to do a D&D based esolang once
20:46:30 <Slereah> it was to be called dungeons and data
20:46:37 <zzo38> Yes that would be interesting a bit, D&D based esolang, put it in the list of ideas page if you want to post the ideas
20:46:56 <Slereah> There's already something like that there
20:47:09 <Slereah> But nah, I just couldn't write a program that felt natural
20:48:57 <zzo38> Why aren't much of a D&D person?
20:49:30 <Sgeo> zzo38, no one to play with
20:49:50 <zzo38> O. But do you think about the game sometimes?
20:50:08 <Sgeo> Everything I know about D&D comes from OOTS
20:50:26 <zzo38> Then maybe you don't know about D&D, then.
20:50:41 <Slereah> Everything I know about D&D comes from Planescape
20:50:48 <zzo38> If you look at the character-sheets you might learn a bit more about D&D, but still probably not a lot
20:51:06 <zzo38> You can also learn a few things from the System Reference Document
20:51:14 <coppro> grab the KotS quick start guide if you are after 4th ed
20:52:11 <zzo38> 4th ed isn't real D&D or real role-playing game in my opinion, I prefer 3.5ed. 4th ed may not be too bad, but it is a completely different game it just has the same name, that's all
20:52:36 <Slereah> You can take his THAC0 from his cold dead hands!
20:52:42 <AnMaster> kismet, wireshark and aircrack-ng all seems to more or less dislike each other. It seems I need to often rmmod iwlagn && modprobe iwlagn in between using the different tools
20:52:44 <coppro> THAC0 isn't in 3.5 either ;)
20:53:23 <coppro> 4th edition isn't as different as some people would have you believe - things got rearranged, sure, but for the most part it's still the same game
20:53:33 <AnMaster> aireplay-ng to do packet injection doesn't work if kismet set up the monitor interface
20:53:49 * Slereah mostly knows about Warhammer RPG
20:53:54 <AnMaster> works fine when airmon-ng was used to set it up
20:54:14 <zzo38> I read the book actually. Regardless of the things written there, it just works differently. Even if a few small changes in a rule of game can make the game very differently, but in this case it was changed more than that.
20:54:37 <zzo38> One example is in some chess variants there is a lot of differences (they aren't normal chess, either)
20:55:10 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THAC0
20:55:27 <zzo38> 4th ed expects you to fight too much for one thing, also I don't like the new alignment system in 4e (it is very stupid), and a few other changes, mostly simplifying things in the wrong way.
20:55:42 <zzo38> Even 3.5ed has some problems, but I play 3.5ed for now anyways
20:56:12 <coppro> the difference is it was designed so that the combat system is an actual, well-balanced game (there are still issues here, but not along the lines of Pun-Pun). I prefer it, especially as a DM
20:56:14 <zzo38> In 3.5ed the arcane magic is not sufficiently arcane, in 4ed the arcane magic is not sufficiently magic.
20:56:52 <zzo38> There's nothing wrong with that combat system. But I don't want to play a combat system, I want to play D&D!
20:57:44 <zzo38> And I don't use miniatures either
20:57:55 <zzo38> I prefer playing without them
20:59:00 <zzo38> D&D is not supposed to be computer game! When I want to play a computer game, I play a computer game.
20:59:47 <coppro> the magic misconception is one of the biggest misconceptions people have imo
21:00:14 <coppro> the classes' powers don't serve the same out-of-combat they used to; rituals do
21:00:19 <zzo38> I also don't like per-encounter stuff (4e has a lot of this, 3.5e has a few), so we just modify the rules to change them to per-day
21:00:38 <zzo38> The DM agrees with many of my ideas about D&D too
21:02:12 <coppro> by the way, please don't misconceive me as disliking people who still play 3.5
21:03:59 <coppro> I'm just enjoy argument
21:04:15 <zzo38> but coppro: Are you interested in looking at these characters-sheets I posted, anyways?
21:04:32 <coppro> sure, though it's been a while since I played 3.5
21:05:05 <zzo38> I prefer defensive playing. Defensive strategy is a completely different strategy than offensive, and I find defensive also much more interesting. I am a defensive expert of D&D. I can't play offensive.
21:05:29 <zzo38> Have you read the book "Art of Defense in Chess"? That is about chess, not D&D, but you might get some ideas from there
21:05:49 <zzo38> Therefore, the book should also be written "Art of Defense in D&D"
21:06:02 <coppro> no, I have not. I don't read much on chess nowadays
21:06:22 <zzo38> That's OK. I was just mentioning it.
21:07:02 <zzo38> Do you like this character sheets, or have a comment of it? (One is mine, one is my brother)
21:09:55 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0dnd/Vyb gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0dnd/5dashes
21:11:13 <coppro> seems like a good format, though you probably want some way to put multiple things on the same like
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21:38:55 <GregorR> http://www.recipezaar.com/library/water-459
21:39:17 * GregorR is drinking delicious carbonated water.
21:39:43 * Deewiant is drinking decent enough tap water
21:40:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, I have good tap water here too
21:40:10 <AnMaster> not just decent, but very good
21:40:15 <Deewiant> Also, I made a number-to-Funge-code tool which doesn't return the optimal result
21:40:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean that tried to return the shortest thing for what number 100000 is or so?
21:41:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what does it return for 103?
21:41:20 <Deewiant> It doesn't even really try for the shortest, just some things that likely are shorter than other things.
21:41:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that was even shorter
21:42:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure is, but using base adressing relative storage offset
21:43:03 <Deewiant> 103 is an uninteresting number anyway :-P
21:43:27 <AnMaster> 'g is relative IP rather than relative storage offset
21:43:55 <AnMaster> any code setting the storage offset explicitly though isn't
21:44:18 <Deewiant> Unless it sets it to something relative to the storage offset and then sets it back ;-P
21:45:00 <AnMaster> I didn't even know there were that many
21:45:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why did you send ù encoded as multibyte then :P
21:45:53 <Deewiant> Because you'd not see it if it wasn't
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21:46:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well. I suggest avoiding anything above 127
21:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also, I meant in original program source
21:46:57 <Deewiant> Testing that that works properly is on my TODO list for Mycology
21:47:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, efunge currently only requires valid unicode in standard IO
21:47:26 <Deewiant> The program source just looks at [1..255]
21:47:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err I'm pretty sure you said using utf-8 was a valid interpretation
21:48:39 <Deewiant> Yes, I did; but it's valid in the same way that 16-bit Funges are valid :-P
21:48:53 <Deewiant> I.e. I wouldn't make it the default if I could avoid it
21:49:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it wouldn't be non-conforming to reject programs that couldn't be parsed in the current charset?
21:49:44 <AnMaster> so if I used utf-8 then... welll
21:50:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you consider befunge in general as advisable then I guess?
21:50:53 <Deewiant> No, just more advisable than thusly implemented Befunge :-P
21:52:10 <Deewiant> '9'@57**+ is the ASCII version
21:52:36 <AnMaster> btw. I need neighbours who actually use their wlans. Even though capturing for several hours I don't yet have enough to test WEP cracking. The most I have is around 220 IVs for one network. And I need around 5000
21:53:59 <AnMaster> it is a bit strange that only sees almost only beacons when there are ~45 networks that can be detected without too much work, and another 20 or so that you can see a few beacons of if you are lucky
21:54:16 <AnMaster> about 7 strong ones (including my own)
21:58:26 <Deewiant> I think it's somehow fitting that an esolang-related tool uses unsafePerformIO twice
21:59:48 <Deewiant> My tool, it uses unsafePerformIO in two different places.
22:04:13 -!- nooga has joined.
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22:29:57 <Deewiant> ehird: I used unsafePerformIO twice and now I feel all dirty. What should I do?
22:40:58 <ehird> Deewiant: remove them
22:42:29 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, it is.
22:43:10 <Deewiant> It actually always isn't, but in this case you're right that it is
22:43:31 <Deewiant> Regardless, I don't want to drop the whole thing in IO
22:43:41 <ehird> So make your own monad, or factor out the IO parts.
22:43:57 <Deewiant> You can't "factor out" stuff that you call in an inner loop
22:44:00 <ehird> Wow, this wireless keyboard is **laggy**.
22:44:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Refactor the whole program
22:44:10 <Deewiant> And if I make my own monad, it'd be a wrapper around IO anyway...
22:44:38 <Deewiant> ehird: Not possible in such a way that the IO would go away
22:47:28 <Deewiant> In general you can't modify a program in such a way that it no longer does something it used to, yet produces all the same results as before
22:48:31 <Deewiant> Changing structure can't magically remove IO
22:49:16 <Deewiant> You can't arbitrarily move IO, either :-P
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22:49:37 <ehird> basically, you're telling me that refactoring is impossible.
22:50:42 <Deewiant> No, I'm saying that a certain kind of modification is impossible for something
22:50:51 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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22:51:41 <ehird> How come all mousemats are either foamy tarfests or scratchy
22:51:52 <ehird> (Yeah, yeah, I should just buy a glass mat)
22:52:01 <ehird> (But this is seriously annoying)
22:56:00 <ehird> 12:14:54 <Sgeo> A friend has a Jonas Brothers Live Video Chat application on Facebook.
22:56:00 <ehird> they are no longer your friend
22:56:36 <Sgeo> ehird, did you see the pic?
22:56:53 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/0FXcp.png
22:57:20 <ehird> "Jonas Brothers", friend. What you're saying is not computing; I have no desire to pollute my brain with your Langfordian basilisks.
22:58:58 <Sgeo> Well, actually, she's my friend's sister
22:59:08 <ehird> 12:49:50 <zzo38> O. But do you think about the game sometimes?
22:59:09 <ehird> I love you zzo38, never leave us
23:18:28 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:32:27 <ehird> So, the Scheme steering community are trying to satisfy those who dislike R6RS by continuing the broken mindset that produced it.
23:32:46 <ehird> Thank you; no, wait, fuck you.
23:33:50 <Sgeo> ehird, what was the broken mindset?
23:34:09 <ehird> Sgeo: is it just me, or do you have a penchant for seemingly-simple questions that take pages?
23:48:09 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric is the system that measures time on your computer http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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00:16:44 <suitdetony> cuando nac me dijo la partera: hay mijo cuando ests grande pobre de la chava que te de las nalgas si que va a gritar en la primera noche que se meta contigo ya que pareces burro jajajaja
00:22:39 -!- ehird2 has joined.
00:22:52 -!- ehird2 has left (?).
00:23:14 -!- ehird2 has joined.
00:29:23 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:30:10 <ehird2> Hmm, where'd he go. Oh, maybe standby.
00:44:59 <ehird_> suitdetony: who are you
00:45:15 <ehird_> [00:29] ehird left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:45:16 <ehird_> [00:30] ehird2: Hmm, where'd he go. Oh, maybe standby.
00:45:16 <ehird_> [00:44] ehird_: Oh, it's not me
00:45:31 <nooga> ehird2 ehird_ and ehird
00:46:01 <ehird_> ehird2 shouldn't still be alive, it is the now-shutdown netbook.
00:46:07 <ehird_> ehird_ is me, ehird is evil ghost me.
00:46:26 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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00:47:02 <ehird_> 16:16:44 <suitdetony> when I was born the midwife said to me: there are large poor millet when the youth joined in the buttocks if you going to scream at the first night will target you because you seem burro jajajaja
00:47:02 <ehird_> 16:17:10 hello <suitdetony>
00:47:02 <ehird_> 16:17:23 <suitdetony> hello girls and I arrived
00:47:32 <ehird_> he is in a lot of programming/sysadmin channels. troll.
00:51:14 <Sgeo_> Point him to a hypothetical 4chan channel?
00:52:33 -!- ehird2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:54:52 <ehird_> what's that meant to achieve
00:55:03 <ehird_> 13:52:36 <AnMaster> btw. I need neighbours who actually use their wlans. Even though capturing for several hours I don't yet have enough to test WEP cracking. The most I have is around 220 IVs for one network. And I need around 5000
00:55:04 <ehird_> "Dammit, people! Aid my illegal activity!"
00:55:19 <ehird_> and you claim to try to follow the law :)
00:55:22 <Sgeo_> ehird_, like piracy?
00:55:38 <Sgeo_> (Yes, yes, I see the diffference between using someone else's WLAN and piracy)
00:55:59 <Sgeo_> Why am I lagging so much?
00:56:10 <ehird_> I think piracy should be legal. I don't think breaking into someone else's wireless network should be legal.
01:00:15 <suitdetony> hi my name is tony I am from Guadalajara and I am looking for a beautiful girl my email is: suitdetony@hotmail.com tank you
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01:28:58 * oerjan looks that up in urbandictionary and is not much wiser
01:30:06 * oerjan looks up "baller" and improves somewhat
01:40:47 <ehird_> Word word mathematicians up?
01:43:06 <oerjan> grammar apparently down
01:59:51 <oerjan> stock your concepts today!
02:15:27 <ehird_> damn a concept stock market would be cool
02:15:36 <ehird_> "Sell 1000 hate! Buy 1000 love!"
02:15:47 <ehird_> "Sell all hates that can be sold for over 1000!"
02:24:46 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
02:37:47 * GregorR is finally buying his sweet rule 110 and rule 30 tie.
02:41:48 <Sgeo_> Mike Keith's site's down!
02:44:01 <ehird_> Sgeo_ doesn't know who _why is. Kill!
02:44:18 <ehird_> http://www.cadaeic.net/
02:44:26 <GregorR> ehird_: He's just pretending not to know. He must be _why!!!
02:44:41 <ehird_> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://www.cadaeic.net/
02:45:05 <Sgeo_> ehird_, http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mikehome.htm
02:45:17 <ehird_> AOL hometown was shut down.
02:45:44 <Sgeo_> ehird_, Mike Keith
02:45:54 <Sgeo_> The person behind Cadaeic Cadenza
02:46:07 <Sgeo_> I read Why's Ruby tutorial a long time ago
02:47:23 <Sgeo_> http://github.com/why Why is there activity from 2 days ago?
02:47:44 <GregorR> Somebody snagged the account when he dropped it.
02:48:11 <ehird_> Sgeo_: his homepage is http://www.cadaeic.net/.
02:48:56 <Sgeo_> I guess the AOL thing was an older version
02:52:33 <Sgeo_> Any chance of _why returning?
02:55:32 <ehird_> Let me look into my crystal ball.
02:55:46 <ehird_> My deep inner knowledge of the man behind why shows Segmentation fault
02:55:57 <ehird_> This porn picture a demonic face.
02:56:03 <ehird_> i should make a living
02:56:06 <ehird_> making terrible, terrible poems
02:57:04 <Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
02:57:17 <Sgeo_> Oh wait, it wasn't an askreddit idea, it was an idea for a new subreddit
02:57:29 <ehird_> `addquote <Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
02:57:30 <HackEgo> 76|<Sgeo_> I had an idea for an AskReddit, but I forgot
02:58:01 <Sgeo_> Is there any API for reddit bots?
02:58:56 <oerjan> Sgeo_: clearly you should ask reddit to help you remember it
02:59:13 <oerjan> except it's probably been done already
02:59:47 <Sgeo_> I was considering posting some of Kurzweil's predictions for 2009, but it's been done elsewhere
03:01:21 <Sgeo_> What, exactly, is the reddit.com subreddit for?
03:01:30 <ehird_> It's the main subreddit.
03:01:40 <ehird_> Stop asking stupid, irrelevant questions in here; that is my job.
03:07:05 <GregorR> ehird_: Uh, no, that's totally Sgeo_'s job.
03:07:21 <ehird_> GregorR: yes, but if we make him think it's mine, he might stop.
03:18:30 <GregorR> Probably won't work if we talk about it like this.
03:19:35 <ehird_> Sell 10,000 bad tactics! Buy 1000 good tactics.
03:20:50 <oerjan> Sell 5000 Unwarranted optimism!
03:21:09 <ehird_> I gotta make this concept market, would be great as an IRC bot
03:21:23 <ehird_> ...unfortunately it kind of needs a backing, you know, to provide actual incentive.
03:21:59 <oerjan> Sell 100,000 Unmonetizable projects!
03:22:31 <ehird_> Buy 1,000,000,000,000,000 ridiculous market inflation!
03:23:28 <ehird_> Sell 1 clue to anyone selling 1 bat, then buy that bat; buy 1 clue if bat-buying fails.
03:24:00 <oerjan> Sell BB(1000) Incomprehensible mathematical inflation!
03:24:15 <ehird_> Sell BB(A(g64,g64)) whoa.
03:24:44 <oerjan> Sell 1 bat for prize of 10
03:24:56 <Sgeo_> Ooh, what's a 10? >.>
03:25:17 <ehird_> oerjan: so what's high-frequency trading in this system :P
03:25:29 <oerjan> Sgeo_: i suggest you lease the clue that ehird_ just bought
03:25:43 * Sgeo_ was trying to comment on the typo
03:25:50 <ehird_> Sgeo_: there was no typo.
03:25:53 <oerjan> ehird_: This clue is defective!
03:26:01 <ehird_> oerjan: you're perfectly clued up
03:26:21 <ehird_> You're reading it wrong.
03:26:44 <oerjan> ^ high-frequency trading
03:29:36 -!- casiobot has joined.
03:30:01 <oerjan> Sell 10 with small gold engraving.
03:30:57 <oerjan> Buy cells, sell 59 nutty pets.
03:32:07 -!- casiobot has changed nick to immibis.
03:32:24 * immibis wonders why his nick was casiobot
03:32:38 <ehird_> You're a bot bot casiobot!
03:35:34 <ehird_> Bot bot bot bot casiobot.
03:35:41 <ehird_> immibis: surely you've seen it...
03:35:47 <ehird_> unless you adopted that name in your sleep
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04:12:16 <ehird_> why aren't there any c compilers that "fake" cpp so that they can avoid recompiling the same header over and over?
04:12:23 <ehird_> just stick to the same semantics and you're golden
04:21:51 <ehird_> meanwhile, http://imgur.com/gmz2k.jpg ;_;
04:22:52 <ehird_> coppro: like, c compilers do 'cpp | cc'
04:23:05 <ehird_> whereas, if they treat #include <foo> as "import 'foo'"
04:23:08 <ehird_> they could do beter analysis,
04:23:16 <ehird_> avoid recompiling 500000000000 files for every source file,
04:23:17 <coppro> you mean cache the results from #include?
04:23:22 <ehird_> and still keep to the semantics if they're careful
04:24:04 <ehird_> [04:23] ehird_: whereas, if they treat #include <foo> as "import 'foo'"
04:24:04 <ehird_> [04:23] ehird_: they could do beter analysis,
04:24:04 <ehird_> [04:23] ehird_: avoid recompiling 500000000000 files for every source file,
04:24:04 <ehird_> [04:23] ehird_: and still keep to the semantics if they're careful
04:25:46 <coppro> because #include is not that simple
04:25:56 <ehird_> nothing I said gives a simplistic view
04:25:59 <ehird_> I am aware of how include works
04:26:34 <coppro> you could do that, but only on a very limited subset of files and directive locations
04:26:50 <ehird_> there's nothing in my proposal to restrict the semantics at all
04:28:26 <coppro> but I'd find it pretty hard to get a standards-compliant implementation that doesn't parse the #included file
04:28:33 <ehird_> of course you parse it
04:28:46 <ehird_> you just don't treat it as if it's been splooged into the file
04:28:58 <ehird_> an #include condom, say :P
04:29:07 <ehird_> my idea is admittedly uber-vague
04:29:26 <coppro> err... parse is not what I meant
04:29:29 <coppro> I meant full semantic analysis
04:29:41 <coppro> and if you are suggesting that still be done, then I'm confused as to what you mean
04:29:48 <ehird_> exactly, you do analysis on it remembering it's an import, and taking this into account
04:29:59 <ehird_> as opposed to just replacing #include <file> with that contents and dumbly processing the whole thing
04:30:33 <coppro> it's just as illegal to do something in a header as somewhere else
04:30:40 <coppro> so you have to do full semantic analysis
04:30:49 <ehird_> I've never once denied that :P
04:31:09 <ehird_> my idea is probably bullshit
04:31:11 <ehird_> who cares about C anyway
04:31:56 <ehird_> coppro: says the C++ lover.
04:32:13 <coppro> that wasn't lost on me
04:32:16 * coppro starts wondering if clang does preprocessing as it parses or not
04:33:01 <ehird_> still, I think the current model of c compilers as a bunch of modular stages, all doing their wonderful little job ... is shit
04:33:12 <ehird_> because god damn, all of them are so fucking slow
04:33:21 <ehird_> because they refuse to have some messy merging
04:34:11 <coppro> I'm just confused on what exactly you'd like it to do. Obviously reducing the number of passes would help, but I can't think of how you could act different in code in a header
04:35:56 <ehird_> that idea was misguided
04:40:48 <coppro> yes, AFAICT, clang does do the proprocessing in the same pass as the rest of the compilation
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04:50:12 <Sgeo_> Is there an easy way, without checking system settings, to determine if I'm using 16-bit or 32-bit color?
04:50:21 <Sgeo_> My system says 32-bit but I don't believe it.
04:50:34 <ehird_> Use an operating system you trust.
05:14:54 * ehird_ considers subscribing to usenet
05:15:08 <ehird_> i'm getting too old to wait for torrents :p
05:20:32 <coppro> Sgeo_: yes. Try displaying two colors that will render the same in 16-bit but differently in 32-bit
05:20:58 <Sgeo_> Where can I find such colors?
05:21:17 <ehird_> coppro: Bring Your Own 20:20 Vision
05:21:30 <coppro> Sgeo_: just try displaying a lot of 32-bit colors that vary by one bit and then inspect a screen capture
05:23:59 <ehird_> yeah, ok, i want to subscribe to usenet. 600-800KiB/s sure beats the hell out of ~30KiB/s. now where's my magical money tree.
06:24:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:33:17 * coppro starts working on clang again
06:35:03 <ehird_> coppro: poison the C++ end
06:35:23 <ehird_> together, comrade, we can eradicate it
06:51:22 <ehird_> A *good* application for text-to-speech: record from microphone to text while working (e.g. programming) or testing your UI, etc.
06:51:44 <ehird_> for UI testing, every time you go "ugh" your UI sucks
06:51:59 <ehird_> for programming, you can jot down notes about the code without thinking or context switching
06:52:07 <ehird_> alas, text to speech isn't really good enough for this yet
06:52:12 <ehird_> hey fizzie, make it better.
06:53:37 <GregorR> ehird_: That's ... actually, a pretty interesting idea ...
06:53:54 <ehird_> that's the highest praise you've ever given to an idea of mine :D
06:54:14 <ehird_> preferably you hook it up to a screen recorder to know wtf you're talking about ofc
06:54:41 <ehird_> so it comes out as "@24:03 this function is way too big, but I can't split it up without reworking the data dependencies on foo bar baz"
06:54:52 <GregorR> Or just build it into your editor or UI library
06:55:12 <GregorR> Tools->Convert voice to comments
06:55:21 <GregorR> / fuck this code is awe full
06:55:32 <ehird_> GregorR: but they're not suited to comments, since it's not about the code itsef
06:55:48 <ehird_> plus, comments should generally be a bit more... polished...
06:55:54 <GregorR> Yes, that was what we call a "joke", i.e. the comment I provided :P
06:56:10 <ehird_> it's 6:56 AM, therefore all jokes are fruitless
06:56:17 <ehird_> i will plow through your nonseriousness with reckless abandon
07:02:38 * ehird_ invents the Gigantic Gob of Text organisation system
07:02:47 <ehird_> you have one file, call it ~/gob or something
07:02:59 <ehird_> in your editor, bind this to @<TAB> (or whatever you want, really):
07:03:08 <ehird_> @@ `date '+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M'`
07:03:19 <ehird_> where `` does the obvious, $1 sets where the cursor goes afterwards, and everything eles is literal
07:03:47 <ehird_> whenever you want to remember anything that your brain doesn't deserve permanent burdening with, open the file (your cursor will be placed at the start), hit it, type, press save.
07:04:01 <ehird_> UI: your favourite searching method
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09:06:27 <AnMaster> <ehird_> "Dammit, people! Aid my illegal activity!" <-- it isn't like I would actually use the networks. :P
09:07:16 <AnMaster> oh and about promisc mode and such, iirc virtualbox puts the interface in that mode in some cases. Not for when you select NAT style network though
09:07:29 <AnMaster> but quite often IME the NAT style doesn't work well
09:10:26 <AnMaster> oh and another thing, I was actually joking about cracking WEP. I haven't tried that. I just noticed that the wlan activity was rather low according to kismet. And too low for WEP cracking (if I would decide to try it)
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20:26:08 <zzo38> Now I have weather reports and movie times, too.
20:27:37 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, esoteric programming language invents YOU!!! That's a idea of a new esolang...
20:46:43 <olsner> In Soviet Russia, programs write you!
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20:47:10 <olsner> it deserves an entry in the hypothetical esolangs section at least :P
20:47:16 <GregorR> In Soviet Russia, object verb SUBJECT!
20:48:06 <oklopol> ...hey i just got that joke
20:48:35 <olsner> In Soviet Russia, subject verb OBJECT!
20:48:39 <oklopol> actually that's probably not the joke, but it would be rather funny to realize i've gotten it wrong all these years.
20:49:05 <olsner> I think the point is to swap subject and object in some punny way
20:54:57 <oklopol> yes, but the way i've always gotten it is
20:55:03 <oklopol> "soviet russia is so backwards that ..."
20:55:20 <oklopol> but it could've been "in russian, the word order is backwards"
20:55:46 <oklopol> for the "soviet" part to be meaningful, the joke would have to be either the first one, or both
20:56:58 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, _ _ YOU!!
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21:22:07 <ehird> 12:54:57 <oklopol> yes, but the way i've always gotten it is
21:22:07 <ehird> 12:55:03 <oklopol> "soviet russia is so backwards that ..."
21:22:07 <ehird> 12:55:20 <oklopol> but it could've been "in russian, the word order is backwards"
21:22:21 <ehird> "in russia [at the time soviet], television watches YOU!"
21:22:30 <ehird> which plays on (a) russian, (b) the soviet oppression
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21:23:28 <oklopol> so i have gotten it wrong, but just because i haven't heard the original, slightly less funny.
21:23:30 <Slereah> I wonder if one day, we will have an iraqi Yakov Smirnoff
21:25:08 <ehird> In Iraq, كنت غزو الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية!
21:25:27 <ehird> hmm that translated badly :D
21:29:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how good is perl for working with binary formats? It seems regex will be a bit painful for that.
21:29:30 <ehird> why do you want to use perl?
21:29:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't, I'm just curious
21:29:50 <AnMaster> I don't even have a specific project I'm planning
21:30:10 <ehird> AnMaster: how good is Python for image processing?
21:30:21 <AnMaster> ehird, there is pyimage or something iirc?
21:30:40 <ehird> i know some stuff.
21:30:46 <ehird> and can hack out a program
21:30:52 <ehird> AnMaster: but it has more than regex
21:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, if it only had regex it would be quite an awesome esolang I bet ;P
21:32:01 <AnMaster> (except with regex, not literal match only)
21:32:56 <ehird> eh, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/REGXY
21:33:41 <zzo38> The first program language I used with self-modifying code was probably GWBASIC (using the CHAIN MERGE command).
21:33:57 <ehird> zzo38 made REGXY i think
21:34:02 <ehird> also, WikiWikiWeb is cool
21:34:08 <ehird> and is still activ
21:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't matter, still retro
21:34:23 <ehird> you don't know what retro means.
21:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird, using a C64 is retro? no?
21:35:05 <ehird> something isn't retro just because it's old; it has to be dead
21:35:06 <oklopol> usually retro is old in a good sense
21:35:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yet I know people who still use it
21:35:29 <ehird> C64 is retro because it died
21:35:34 <ehird> and continued only in the demoscene
21:35:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes. it has an element of nostalgia in it
21:35:39 <ehird> which is because of the retroness
21:35:48 <ehird> WikiWikiWeb, however, is continuous
21:35:53 <ehird> it never died and it's still active
21:35:55 <ehird> so it can't be retro
21:36:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are saying wikiwikiweb can never be retro?
21:36:10 <ehird> AnMaster: if people stop using it, it can be
21:36:24 <AnMaster> ehird, so they have to stop using it and then start using it again
21:36:31 <AnMaster> ehird, in that case gopher isn't retro
21:36:49 <ehird> if a bunch of commercial game producers started producing for the C64 again
21:36:53 <ehird> well first of all it would be really weird
21:36:58 <ehird> but then the C64 would stop being retro
21:37:02 <ehird> because it'd be current again
21:37:06 <AnMaster> ehird, Duke Nukem C64 Edition!
21:37:10 <ehird> you need it to be small/not-mainstream
21:37:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't call wikiwikiweb mainstream any more
21:37:40 <ehird> the revival has to be non-mainstream
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21:37:45 <ehird> also, non-mainstream in the *context* of it
21:37:53 <ehird> as in, what it originally was, counts as mainstream
21:37:57 <ehird> gopher is retro because only a few diehards (of course "die" can't mean totally 100% dead), and people who left it and then got nostalgiac
21:38:09 <ehird> the former are discounted due to being an extreme minority, and everything has those
21:38:19 <ehird> the latter are a small, non-mainstream-compared-to-previous-gopher-glory group
21:38:23 <ehird> therefore gopher is retro
21:38:26 <ais523> sorry if I type like a zombie, I've just woken up from sleeping for 21 hours in a row
21:38:30 <ehird> ais523: me and AnMaster are arguing about what counts as retro
21:38:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> the former are discounted due to being an extreme minority, and everything has those <-- *imagines such minorities for odd things*
21:39:49 <ais523> ehird: yes, but I'd been awake for quite a long time before then
21:40:10 <ehird> ais523: after ~40 hours sleepdep I usually get about 12 hours sleep
21:40:25 <ais523> ehird: same here, but it was longer today for some reason
21:40:27 <ehird> I slept at about 8:30 yesterday and woke up at ~18:00
21:40:34 <ehird> fucked up sleep schedules are awesome
21:42:31 <AnMaster> since sleep is a dep for being awake for me ;P
21:42:41 <ehird> I try to, but sometimes I just love being awake too much
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21:44:20 <zzo38> Now I have weather reports and movie times on gopher too, it isn't completely dead. And many people are old too, but they aren't necessarily dead either.
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21:44:40 <ehird> Both of those clauses were addressed in what I said.
21:44:53 <ehird> Most things aren't completely dead
21:45:04 <ehird> Most buried people aren't completely dead
21:45:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> fucked up sleep schedules are awesome <-- what about school?
21:45:24 <ehird> who cares about school when you can sleep weirdly
21:45:50 <ehird> EH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
21:46:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Me, NMI. You, Fibonacci.
21:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I thought it was. Just too lazy to count how long "<ehird> EH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" was
21:47:00 <ehird> You thought that was fibonacci?
21:47:04 <ehird> It's very obviously not
21:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, count the number of exclamation marks
21:48:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and zero on the two above
21:48:09 <ehird> What the fuck are you talking about?
21:48:26 <ehird> You are being incomprehensible.
21:48:28 <oklopol> AnMaster: you can have a fucked up sleep schedule with school, i had about 3 hours a night when i was in high school, at random points during the day.
21:48:43 <ehird> oklopol: do Uberman's :)
21:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it MUST be fibonacci + some crypto
21:49:13 <oklopol> counting !'s and adding one gets you to 1 1 2 3 9
21:49:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, yep, so not quite that
21:49:46 <oklopol> there's the EH, i guess you could somehow explain how that's a -4.
21:50:06 <oklopol> ehird: tried once, will try another time if i get an uberbuddy.
21:50:29 <AnMaster> that OTP with the addition operator would work
21:50:52 <AnMaster> clearly it can be extended with another value for the next
21:50:59 <AnMaster> now to figure out the pattern in it
21:51:25 <oklopol> any sequence is any sequence OTP'd
21:51:46 <AnMaster> I guess random fluke from zzo38
21:52:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, at least, if you OTP it.
21:52:50 <ehird> basically, AnMaster is trying to cover his ass for thinking something totally different is fibonacci.
21:53:03 <AnMaster> ehird, no. But I forgot the 3 was there.
21:53:06 <oklopol> ehird: i actually had an uberbuddy planned, but he went to the army :\
21:53:16 <ehird> oklopol: let IRC be your uberbuddy
21:53:21 <AnMaster> and then add one for each ! or ?
21:53:40 <oklopol> ehird: people who don't cover their asses are gay
21:54:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you weren't talking _to_ me
21:55:15 <ehird> oklopol: anyway i wanna try uberman's, you should try and convince me to.
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21:55:34 <ehird> although i'm a bit worried about, like, fucking up my development :D
21:55:49 <AnMaster> http://suckless.org/common/dynamic_window_management <-- what exactly are they suggesting here in practise
21:55:56 <AnMaster> I mean... it sounds all nice and so
21:56:11 <ehird> Uhh, automatic window management.
21:56:21 <ehird> Maybe you could try actually reading it
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21:56:35 <AnMaster> but there are like, no examples
21:56:52 <ehird> most tiling window managers in general
21:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, pratical examples with screenshots
21:56:57 <ehird> (although dwm isn't solely tiling)
21:57:02 <ehird> AnMaster: It's about interaction, not the look
21:57:07 <ehird> The screenshot would look like any other WM
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21:57:20 <ehird> Have I mentioned recently that you're stupid?
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22:08:14 <ehird> http://www.greenarraychips.com/
22:08:17 <ehird> Green Arrays now have a site
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22:09:17 <ehird> (GregorR: http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/lizzy/pe-hat.html you wrote this in another life, didn't you?)
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22:20:49 <ehird> http://86.3.152.152:99/
22:23:02 <Deewiant> 86315215299 = 3"S/#@"*+'U9'@74'@*+**+***
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22:28:12 <ehird> Deewiant: that seems awfully verbose
22:28:37 <ehird> Deewiant: wouldn't "base-<printable asii chars> text"<parser> be shorter
22:29:25 <ehird> so ", 6 chars, ", converter
22:29:49 <ehird> so if the converter is less than 18 bytes...
22:30:21 <Deewiant> I very much doubt a parser will be that short :-P
22:30:44 <Deewiant> Anyway, there's also "ùï @"*+'U9'@f'ø+**+** for you non-ASCII folks
22:30:45 <ehird> Deewiant: it's just repeated foo = (foo*93)+digits[nextchar]
22:30:54 <ehird> digits is just a trivial offset
22:30:59 <ehird> since we're talking continuous ascii chars
22:35:25 <GregorR> ehird: I would never restrict myself to one hat.
22:35:34 <ehird> GregorR: Duh, just buy multiple screens.
22:35:40 <ehird> GregorR: Anyway, you restrict yourself to one pair of glasses, no?
22:36:22 <ehird> GregorR: I guess I hallucinated that video about that ipod thing
22:36:50 <GregorR> If you mean my completely-non-ipod-related portable video screen, then yes, that's only one pair of glasses.
22:36:54 <ehird> GregorR: It was a screen designed for the iPod, wasn't it?
22:36:54 <GregorR> But I'm a HAT GUY, not a GLASSES GUY.
22:37:14 * ehird recursively googles
22:37:15 <ehird> "Myvu Crystal, video eyewear for iPod"
22:37:16 <GregorR> ehird: Idonno whether it was designed for the iPod or adapted to the iPod, they have an iPod edition and a universal (non-iPod) edition.
22:37:30 <ehird> first sentence in the google result /shrug
22:37:44 <ehird> It means that's what they call it?
22:37:48 <GregorR> Some douchebag went COOL I CAN USE THIS WITH MY IPOD SO ITS AN IPOD SCREEN
22:37:57 <ehird> Yes, that douchebag would be their marketing division
22:38:16 <GregorR> Their /douchebag/ marketing division.
22:38:24 <ehird> That is redundant.
22:57:35 <ehird> http://agentmlovestacos.tumblr.com/post/169641243/this-is-brilliant-2-minutes-of-magic-via
23:01:19 <GregorR> HAI EHIRD LET'S TALK ABOUT MY HATS
23:01:24 <GregorR> CUZ I JUST PUT A BUNCH OF NEW PICS UP
23:01:35 <ehird> I'm sorry, my brain has turned off because of my last link
23:07:45 <Deewiant> ehird: Shortest I can come up with is 0"123456"1>\:#\ #+ #* #+ #5 #* #a #9_$ ... and that's assuming base 95, which you can't do directly since there are holes in the set of printable ASCII
23:08:03 <ehird> Deewiant: that 123456 isn't needed, is it?
23:08:07 <ehird> that's your test data
23:08:24 <ehird> Deewiant: surely that #fest can be shortened
23:09:41 <ehird> /join the #fest ivities!
23:10:31 <Deewiant> Nope, 0"123456"1>\:#$ #k #7"\+*+3*a9"7# k# $#_$ is a char longer
23:10:39 <Deewiant> (And untested, not sure if that works)
23:11:42 <Deewiant> Actually, that definitely doesn't work, but this might: 0"123456"1>\:#\"#\+*+3*a9"# 7# k# $#_$
23:11:57 <Deewiant> In any case, it's longer than 3"S/#@"*+'U9'@74'@*+**+*** :-P
23:12:50 <Deewiant> Those are about as long as the hex-only version of 86315215299: 33a8*+7f8f4+**+d589548d**+***+***
23:16:35 <ehird> Does befunge have exponentiation? I guess not
23:24:09 <ehird> So, trial round 1 of Haskell Joust. Give me an expression of type (X -> Bool) where `newtype X = X (X -> Bool)`. The idea is that (f (X f)) is True, while (f anythingElse) is False; you can, of course, try to detect your opponent's interrogation techniques and fool them.
23:25:52 <ehird> Of course, you will be given (f (X otherOpponent)) for every other opponent and also (f (X f)).
23:25:56 <ehird> Scoring should be obvious.
23:35:17 <ehird> [[It was largely inspired by xmonad and dwm. Both are fine products but suffer from things like: crazy-unportable-language-syndrome, silly defaults, asymmetrical window layout, "how hard can it be?" and good old NIH.
23:35:17 <ehird> Nevertheless dwm was a phenomenal resource and many good ideas and code was borrowed from it. On the other hand xmonad has great defaults, key bindings and xinerama support but is crippled by not being written in C.]]
23:35:24 <ehird> Crazy unportable language system.
23:35:34 <ehird> If faced with a crazy unportable language
23:35:40 <ehird> Why not write it in the crazy unportable language C
23:35:50 <ehird> Silly wabbits and their crazy unportable Haskells
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00:01:19 <ais523> crippled by not being written in C?
00:01:22 <ais523> I don't get that at all
00:02:35 <ehird> ais523: wasn't talking about that, but yeah
00:02:39 <ehird> 's clearly one of the
00:02:48 <ehird> "the only portable language is C and all others are unnatural and crappy" retards
00:03:06 <ehird> or perhaps the "but, if I want to compile from source I have to INSTALL A COMPILER!" retards
00:03:18 <ehird> ais523: by "Nobody?" I meant:
00:03:19 <ehird> [23:24] ehird: So, trial round 1 of Haskell Joust. Give me an expression of type (X -> Bool) where `newtype X = X (X -> Bool)`. The idea is that (f (X f)) is True, while (f anythingElse) is False; you can, of course, try to detect your opponent's interrogation techniques and fool them.
00:03:20 <ehird> [23:25] ehird: Of course, you will be given (f (X otherOpponent)) for every other opponent and also (f (X f)).
00:03:58 <ehird> The expression you give me.
00:04:03 <ehird> Sorry for not making that clear.
00:04:06 <ehird> ais523: Read the line again.
00:04:20 <ehird> newtype X = X (X -> Bool)
00:04:40 <ais523> I don't know enough haskell syntax to get what that newtype line is doing
00:04:40 <ehird> If you don't understand it it's probably unwise to enter.
00:04:55 <ehird> ais523: it defines a new type with X, with one constructor, X
00:05:02 <ehird> taking a single argument of type (X -> Bool)
00:05:09 <ehird> ais523: 'newtype' is just 'data', but can only have one constructor
00:05:15 <ehird> It has slightly different semantics and is optimised away
00:05:27 <ehird> ais523: You can pattern-match on f like:
00:05:36 <ehird> (\(X f) -> f (X f))
00:06:00 <ehird> (of course, the above code will loop forever when passed itself, and likely loop forever when passed to other programs)
00:06:09 <ehird> *pattern-match on X
00:08:15 <Deewiant> f = const True -- I'm in the lead on this one
00:10:04 <ehird> Deewiant: That's not an expression.
00:10:18 <ehird> Deewiant: But as soon as someone submits another warrior you won't be.
00:10:32 <ehird> You'll lose a point for (f (X other)) being True.
00:20:00 <pikhq> \g -> unsafePerformIO (openFile "foo" Write >>= hPutStr "foo" >>= closeFile) `seq` g `seq` unsafePerformIO (openFile "foo" Read >>= hGetContents >>= return . (== "foo"))
00:21:08 <ehird> pikhq: not haskell code because unsafePerformIO is not a meaningful Haskell function
00:21:33 <ehird> Anyone used the sphinx speech recog engine?
01:11:55 <ehird> Dear Kinesis corporation: Make a split-style ergonomic Dvorak keyboard with a built-in TrackPoint-style cursor. It would be awesome.
01:12:45 <ehird> Oh, and use really good keycaps.
01:13:09 <ehird> Mechanical ones. No clicky sound. Springing or not, you decide. :P
01:13:37 <ehird> oklopol: they all click, but
01:13:38 <oklopol> maybe they could have them optionally... but still analog ofc
01:13:40 <ehird> ever used a model M?
01:13:48 <ehird> it's way louder than a typewriter
01:13:58 <ehird> makes it unusable for me, I can't think over it
01:14:15 <ehird> anyway the model M uses mechanical tactile clicking switches
01:14:23 <ehird> the best ones are mechanical non-clicking, tactile or not
01:14:33 <ehird> I think I prefer non-tactile, but haven't alas used such a kb in person
01:14:43 <ehird> but my model m is a bit too springy for me
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01:46:01 <ehird> But the current round of Kinesis contour keyboards really discourage you from using the mouse
01:46:16 <ehird> They're impossible to use one-handed, and you have to rest your hands in a specific way, so you'll try and avoid the rodent whenever possible
01:46:25 <ehird> so an integrated nipple mouse would make them a lot better
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01:58:54 <ehird> Hmm, the Kinesis contour keyboards already use mechanical keyswitches
01:59:11 <ehird> Tactile ones, and they say they provide "audible feedback" but every key does that, it might not be clicky.
01:59:43 <ehird> So make them non-clicky if they are, and add a nipple pointer, and I'm sold
02:42:15 <oklopol> i need to sleep now, nights.
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03:20:15 <oerjan> 13:22:21 <ehird> "in russia [at the time soviet], television watches YOU!"
03:20:15 <oerjan> 13:22:30 <ehird> which plays on (a) russian, (b) the soviet oppression
03:20:36 <oerjan> mind you i'm pretty half-sure russian doesn't _actually_ have OSV word order :)
03:20:47 <ehird> it's free order, i think
03:20:55 <ehird> maybe OVS is idiomatic
03:21:07 <oerjan> yeah but still probably SVO or SOV by default
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03:24:39 <oerjan> <pikhq> \g -> unsafePerformIO (openFile "foo" Write >>= hPutStr "foo" >>= closeFile) `seq` g `seq` unsafePerformIO (openFile "foo" Read >>= hGetContents >>= return . (== "foo"))
03:25:09 <oerjan> i think that is not required to perform the actions in the desired order
03:26:16 <oerjan> seq only means that both _will_ be evaluated, it doesn't guarantee the first is first. i vaguely recall reading ghc _sometimes_ may switch them
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03:26:33 <oerjan> (assuming the first to run terminates)
03:27:36 <ehird> `seq` g seems pointless
03:28:10 <oerjan> it will evaluate g at least
03:44:42 <oerjan> oh, and one more thing, each of the actions is only guaranteed at most one evaluation, globally, regardless of number of g's called.
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05:03:24 <ehird> cool, I think I just perceived the fourth dimension :P
05:46:14 <MizardX> ... being able to see trough everything at once, without it being transparent. Information overflow
05:53:34 <ehird> MizardX: no, I was just staring at a visualisation of a hypercube
05:53:48 <ehird> and my eyes batted about, refocusing really quickly on each 3D perspective of it
05:53:59 <ehird> and if it went fast enough, they all happened at once
05:54:07 <ehird> and thus it was 4D, or so I perceived
06:01:30 <ehird> Fun fact: the Apple IIc had a switch on the back to choose between QWERTY and Dvorak.
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06:16:15 <Sgeo_> Apparently, RoM doesn't have a smooth progress bar
06:16:29 <Sgeo_> It goes from 18% to 25% to 50%
06:17:01 <ehird> (a) Thanks for not telling us what RoM is
06:17:02 <ehird> (b) Thanks for telling us that?
06:17:13 <ehird> You do realise we can't infer your context telepathically.
06:17:36 <Sgeo_> RoM == Runes of Magic
06:18:03 <Sgeo_> The way I saw it, the fact that it was Runes of Magic was tangental to the annoying progress bar on my screen
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06:18:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: However, we really, really don't care about the annoying progress bar on your screen in itself, so it's possible that the context of "RoM" would make it more interesting.
06:18:48 <ehird> Also, if it's not relevant, just don't say it.
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06:33:54 <ehird> todo list to becoming an incomprehensible nerdy elitist:
06:34:09 <ehird> - buy a kinesis contoured advantage keyboard
06:34:14 <ehird> - hack a nipple mouse into it
06:34:25 <ehird> - switch to plan 9
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06:34:37 <ehird> - IRC in lojban on kinesis contoured keyboard while mousing with the nipple mouse, from plan 9
06:35:21 <ehird> - there is no step 6
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06:53:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> - buy a kinesis contoured advantage keyboard <-- sounds cool, picture?
06:53:48 <ehird> It's the canonical contoured keyboard: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-wht720x442.jpg
06:55:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... would take some time getting used to
06:55:18 <ehird> Yes, apparently the learning curve is bigger than you'd expect. (So switch to Dvorak at the same time!)
06:55:48 <ehird> I'd like to buy one. They have Model M-style keyswitches; mechanical and tactile. I think clicky (makes the sound), but I doubt as loud as Model Ms. I've sent off an email to their sales to ask.
06:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and it looks so awkward it simply *must* be awesomely ergonomic
06:56:08 <ehird> coppro: you press a key to turn the right side into a numberpad or something
06:56:24 <ehird> but what are you doing writing out such long numbers?
06:57:21 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you place your hands when using it?
06:57:27 <ehird> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/cont-above-hands-blk630x390.jpg
06:57:44 <coppro> ehird: typing my password. which is calculated by the following algorithm:
06:57:47 <ehird> They're terribly popular with the ergonomic crowd.
06:58:08 <ehird> coppro: Singular? You only have one password?
06:58:11 <ehird> Anyway, use a passphrase
06:58:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I can imagine that...
06:58:16 <coppro> set m = the next n digits of pi
06:58:28 <ehird> Pi as a source of random digits. Congrats, you're stupid.
06:58:44 <ehird> Repeat... 3.14... times?
06:58:46 <AnMaster> ehird, since it radiates "my owner is cooler than you and his other mouse is a trackball"
06:59:07 <ehird> AnMaster: You seem very condescending without having used it or read about the design.
06:59:09 <coppro> ehird: by now surely you've figured out that I have multiple passwords and that none of them are based on the digits of pi
06:59:23 <ehird> coppro: I would have, were the world not full of idiots.
06:59:37 <coppro> that algorithm gets pretty stupid pretty fast though
06:59:47 <coppro> the second iteration is 141 digits long
06:59:59 <ehird> AnMaster: You're claiming that pompous jackasses use it and little else, and yes: "it looks so awkward".
07:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry if it appeared that way. But I'm sure it would be perfect for a pompous jackass *as well*.
07:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes it looks awkward so would take time getting used to
07:01:01 <ehird> A pompous jackass could make an original IBM PC hip :)
07:02:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, the main issue is that because of the position and huge difficulty (to the point of utter impracticality) of using it one-handed, the task-switching latency from keyboard to mouse and vice-versa becomes huge.
07:02:50 <ehird> The best solution being a nipple mouse.
07:02:58 <ehird> (integrated in the keyboard)
07:03:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> A pompous jackass could make an original IBM PC hip :) <-- yeah I guess so
07:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, also wouldn't a symbolics keyboard be even better?
07:04:25 <AnMaster> not ergonomically, but I meant about it being hip
07:04:45 <ehird> Considering that every single known user of a Symbolics keyboard to date has had a beard, probably not. :P
07:04:57 <ehird> Hip is the wrong word anyway; Macs are hip.
07:05:04 <ehird> I mean, uh, pompous douchbaggerific.
07:05:49 <AnMaster> so the PDR quotient would be higher with that keyboard than a symbolics one you say?
07:06:08 <AnMaster> ehird, plus, what exactly is wrong with a beard?
07:06:11 <ehird> Symbolics keyboards are only cool for using a bunch of emacs modifiers
07:06:20 <ehird> and emacs has a very negative PDR quotient
07:06:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, beards can be PDR+ (positive), but only very specific ones
07:06:42 <AnMaster> ehird, TECO would have a positive PDR quotient I guess?
07:06:51 <ehird> no, TECO is for people over the age of 40
07:06:58 <AnMaster> ehird, RMS beard? A. Cox beard?
07:06:59 <ehird> which implies around PDR- 1,000
07:07:27 <ehird> AnMaster: not sure
07:07:54 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/NEC-Computers-LCD2490WUXI-BK-24-Inch-Widescreeen/dp/B000MT5J7I/ This monitor looks awesome.
07:07:57 <ehird> `calc 1,047.40 $ in £
07:07:58 <HackEgo> 1 047.40 US$ = 633.597484 UK
07:07:59 <ehird> The price less so.
07:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc NEC monitors in general are often used as "reference monitors" in tests of cheaper monitors
07:08:33 <ehird> coppro: actually, when used on their own (not while typing) they're several seconds slower than touchpads
07:08:46 <ehird> they shine because they're seamless when mixed with typing
07:09:07 <coppro> ehird: several seconds slower?
07:09:23 <ehird> A number of ergonomic studies to compare trackpoint and touchpad performance have been done [8][9][10]. Most studies find that touchpad is slightly faster; one study found that "the touchpad was operated 15% faster than the trackpoint"[10]. Another study found that average object selection time was faster with a touchpad, 1.7 sec compared to 2.2 sec with a trackpoint, and object manipulation took 6.2 sec with a touchpad, on average, against 8.1 sec with trac
07:09:56 <ehird> TrackPoints are good because of how they integrate with typing, and because you can move infinitely without repositioning.
07:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, speed for me: mouse > trackpoint > touchpad
07:10:06 <ehird> (and because they're a lot easier on your hands)
07:10:09 <AnMaster> but I never really liked touchpads
07:10:10 <ehird> AnMaster: *perceived speed
07:10:21 <ehird> Our humans are very fickle with time.
07:10:36 <ehird> We often disagree with stopwatches.
07:10:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well I tend to get ways done faster with the mouse though. and with touchpad I often end up with it going to the wrong place and needing adjustment after.
07:11:33 <ehird> Is it just me, or are trackballs awful?
07:11:58 <ehird> You have inaccuracy and slowness because you're spinning a ball, not positioning a mouse, and you have to reposition your fingers to keep it spinning, like a mouse.
07:12:07 <ehird> Plus, you have to rest your finger/thumb on an awkward, sticking-out knob.
07:12:10 <ehird> It's like the worst of all worlds.
07:12:16 <AnMaster> "and you have to reposition your fingers to keep it spinning, like a mouse." <-- eh?
07:12:52 <ehird> Uhh, you have to take your finger off the ball.
07:13:00 <ehird> Otherwise you reach the edge.
07:13:08 <ais523> ehird: trackballs are apparently more precise than mice, because people's thumbs are more precise than their arm muscles
07:13:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes true, but "like a mouse"?
07:13:19 <ehird> ais523: mice are precise enough, though
07:13:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well, more like a touchpad
07:13:25 <AnMaster> do you mean like ths scrollwheel?
07:13:30 <ehird> no, you have to pick up the mouse
07:13:33 <ehird> and move it to the middle of the pad
07:13:56 <AnMaster> since it works perfectly on the desk
07:14:03 <ehird> I assume that you have an infinitely large desk and infinitely extending arms.
07:14:08 <ehird> Otherwise, irrelevant; you have to reorient it.
07:14:13 <AnMaster> ehird, very fast mouse acceleration
07:14:13 <ehird> Also, really, nobody cares what your desk is made of.
07:14:33 <AnMaster> ehird, about 8 cm to go diagonally across my monitor
07:14:55 <ehird> You clearly live in continuous space, and can make infinite fine movements in one direciton without ever repositioning it.
07:16:01 <ais523> with any amount of acceleration, you could recentre your mouse by moving it quickly in one direction then slowly in the other direction
07:16:06 <coppro> interesting... apparently the winningest opening move in professional chess is Na3
07:16:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well I seldom need to reposition it since I have about 8 cm across the screen and about 30 cm free between keyboard and the edge of the desk.
07:16:15 <ais523> but you probably wouldn't want to
07:16:15 <AnMaster> sure sometimes yes. but not often
07:16:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Because you don't make lots and lots of very fine movements.
07:16:36 <ehird> i.e., you don't really use a mouse to its limits.
07:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what I do. When image editing yet
07:17:14 <AnMaster> other than that and browser I tend to use keyboard mostly
07:17:29 <ehird> I wonder if there are any matte LED IPS screens.
07:17:38 <ehird> Apple's 24" Cinema Display is LED and IPS, but glossy.
07:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster: as opposed to TN.
07:18:04 <AnMaster> ais523, Na3 hm *tries to visualise it*
07:18:28 <ais523> coppro: probably statistical fluctuations, it isn't all that good a move, and it isn't played often as a result
07:18:29 <ehird> IPS is different because you can actually distinguish colours on it, and you can tilt your screen and move your head around without turning the colours into an automatic acid trip.
07:18:29 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, what chess notation is that?
07:18:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, coppro said it.
07:18:39 <ais523> AnMaster: it's coppro who said it, and it's algebraic
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07:18:54 <coppro> ais523: that's what I'm tempted to think
07:19:04 <AnMaster> stop talking while I'm checking the nick before the text ;P
07:19:17 <coppro> alternatively, it could simply be that it's such a bad move that the opponent rarely can deal with it
07:19:33 <ais523> or that people only play it against bad opponents?
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07:19:56 <ehird> <bob> ... I ... the ... you ... just ... and the ...
07:19:56 <ehird> <bob> *has an aneurysm*
07:20:24 <AnMaster> well yes it looks like a bad move to me... but hm
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07:22:03 <ehird> Consider 3D first.
07:22:18 <ehird> You'd need X-ray vision.
07:22:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Then 4D minesweeper is just a bunch of 3D cubes that affect each other.
07:22:44 <ehird> coppro: in 2d minesweeper, the whole field is made of blocks
07:22:51 <ehird> so in 3d minesweeper, it's a solid cube of blocks all the way through
07:23:13 <coppro> that's a rather bad interpretation of it
07:23:35 <ehird> 1d minesweeper = a line of blocks
07:23:38 <coppro> no reason the blocks need to be opaque
07:23:40 <ehird> 2d minesweeper = a grid of blocks
07:23:44 <ehird> 3d minesweeper = a cube of blocks
07:23:50 <ehird> 4d minesweeper = a tesseract of blocks
07:23:58 <ehird> coppro: i'm assuming gray blocks like 2d minesweeper
07:24:00 <ehird> point is, it'd be solid
07:24:20 <coppro> if 4d minesweeper is any easier than 4d Rubik's Cube, I might try it
07:24:44 <ehird> it's probably best to do it as a big grid of 2d grids
07:24:49 <ehird> as opposed to futzing about with 3d navigation
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07:29:09 * coppro wants to make an esolang based on Set
07:42:52 <fizzie> Blong. Sorry, I'll have to leave in a few minutes, am already some two hours late for today's schedule.
07:43:23 <ehird> fizzie: just wondering how your speech recog research stuff is, and if it's in any sort of product somewhere, due to last night's (shut up, it's night) musing:
07:43:34 <ehird> A good use of a speech-to-text system: realtime notes. While coding you can jot things down without context-switching; just say it and it's done. While testing a UI you can analyse the results later to improve the UI when you go "ugh".
07:43:35 <ehird> Preferably linked to a screen recorder w/ timestamps so you can see what the hell you're talking about later. I don't think any speech-to-text systems are good enough to be useful for this right now, unfortunately.
07:43:55 <ehird> i know you've mentioned working on that sort of thingy
07:45:17 <fizzie> Oh yes, I saw that. Well, maybe for very informal notes, if you don't mind spending quite a lot of good working-time wondering what the heck "apply the cows here" means, when in reality you said "update the copy here".
07:45:51 <ehird> fizzie: You aren't likely to have seen that; that's the musing from ~/gob, a summarisation of my IRC blatherings.
07:45:56 <ehird> fizzie: But that sounds, uh, very bad.
07:46:04 <ehird> I know the commercial products are better than that, at least.
07:46:17 <ehird> (You get "update the nappy beer". :P)
07:46:38 <ehird> The timestamps would let you listen, but that kind of defeats the point of skimming.
07:46:51 <ehird> fizzie: would key-tapping result in "xkfkckfkcfkkpkfpptpfkckfppk"? :P
07:47:00 <fizzie> Okay, so maybe it isn't quite that bad. I don't really have a good feeling how well it'd work; I assume it would be of *some* use.
07:47:17 <ehird> fizzie: you inspire me with confidence. i assume this isn't in any sort of downloadable/purchasable form?
07:47:22 <ehird> *fill, not inspire
07:47:58 <ehird> wow, someone actually uses BSD 4
07:48:15 <fizzie> Oh, I think you could reasonably easily handle a noise source like that, since it's known-in-advance. Noise robustness is general is really tricky, though, but maybe it wouldn't be such a problem in an application like that, unless you insist on doing your UI-testing-and-muttering-to-self-like-a-crazy-person in a crowded cafe or something.
07:48:45 <ehird> are you avoiding "i assume this isn't in any sort of downloadable/purchasable form?"? :P
07:49:56 <fizzie> I don't think our recognizer, per se, is downloadable (it's not very productized (read: user-friendly)) or purchasable, but the state-of-the-art in commercial systems isn't lagging *too* far, I don't think. At some things they might even be ahead.
07:50:25 <fizzie> A lot of our research is done industry-funded, anyway. And at least the SONIC people from University of Whateveritwas have been pimping their recognizer around.
07:50:31 <ehird> hard to get a commercial system for a non-OS X unixalike that you can plug into stuff and doesn't cost the world...
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07:52:00 <ehird> maybe we just need to grow two extra arms
07:52:08 <ehird> and learn how to think about two typings at once
07:52:14 <ehird> hmm two extra arms would come in handy
07:52:18 <ehird> like dual-monitors!
07:52:26 <ehird> *dual monitors; - looks iffy with the plural
07:53:17 <olsner> two monitors make one dual-monitor?
07:54:39 <ehird> More like "dual-monitor configuration"; actually, the - looks weird there too.
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09:31:27 <MizardX> Speaking of arms: http://www.hizook.com/blog/2009/08/03/high-speed-robot-hand-demonstrates-dexterity-and-skillful-manipulation
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09:40:44 <ehird> "South Park is an incredibly dangerous movie for those who do not understand or are developing an understanding of the Gospel ....... INCREDIBLY dangerous. Some of the scenes in South Park reminded me so much of the image of demons screeching and dancing around a boiling cauldron as Satan gleefully looks on from the background as the demons pitch soul after soul after soul into the burning cauldron.."
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10:06:50 <ehird> ais523: when did you last sleep? I think combining our sleep models will produce a mathematical sequence of some kind
10:07:13 <ais523> ehird: from about midnight at the start of Sunday, to about 9pm on Sunday
10:07:37 <ehird> ais523: hardcore. did you like rewire your brain? how can you be anything but incapacitated?
10:07:59 <ehird> yeah i've been awake longer than you :P
10:08:09 <ais523> almost certainly I was asleep longer than you, though
10:08:25 <ehird> ais523: 9 hours? naw, i slept ten
10:08:42 <ais523> you're messing up 12-hour clock calculatiosn
10:08:53 <ehird> ais523: stop using 12-hour clocks ;P
10:09:10 <oklopol> i remember in the ninth grade this dude came to school on monday and asked us if it was really monday, he'd slept from saturday till monday morning
10:09:13 <ehird> was it actually continuously 21 hours, I don't get how it's possible to be so tired
10:10:17 <ehird> i mean i'm getting pretty tired and i could do 12 hours max
10:11:24 <ehird> ais523: are you asleep :P
10:11:25 <oklopol> i've only slept 16.5 hours once, and 18 when i had a bad fever, but that doesn't count
10:12:30 <oklopol> but, 12 seems to be a relatively normal amount of sleep for me, so i'm fairly sure i'm still among sleepy sleepers
10:12:49 <ehird> ais523: wanna answer my qs? :P i mean it takes kinda effort to... say things when i'm tired
10:13:06 <ais523> ehird: oh, I'm not paying attention
10:13:07 <ehird> oklopol: dude you're wasting 50%, 1/2, one whole half of your life!
10:13:49 <oklopol> ehird: also when i'm awake, i usually do nothing, yet i seem to get more done than most people
10:14:04 <ehird> oklopol: you could have twice as much time
10:14:06 <oklopol> well. i guess it's because i usually don't usually do nothing, just in the summer
10:14:22 <ehird> i mean i remember when you thanked me for telling you about daylight time giving you another hour xD
10:15:44 <oklopol> of course i'd like to sleep only a little, but it's too hard
10:15:45 <ehird> well. uberman's still takes up to 3 hours of your day
10:16:00 <ehird> uberman's is reported as quite easy once you get into it
10:16:08 <ehird> the Dymaxion guy did a similar schedule for most of his life
10:16:14 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, but you go into REM sleep almost immediately
10:16:17 <oklopol> i'm never heard of the dymaxion guy
10:16:17 <ehird> zipping through the other stages
10:16:30 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller
10:16:36 <ehird> a totally amazing guy who died.
10:17:05 <ehird> The Dymaxion Chronofile is Buckminster Fuller's attempt to document his life as completely as possible. He created a very large scrapbook in which he documented his life every 15 minutes from 1915 to 1983. The scrapbook contains copies of all correspondence, bills, notes, sketches, and clippings from newspapers. The total collection is estimated to be 270 feet (80 m) worth of paper. This is said to be the most documented human life in history.
10:17:32 <ehird> dymaxion sleep schedule is uhh
10:17:55 <ehird> every six hours 30min nap
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10:18:15 <ehird> basically it's uberman's with four instead of six naps
10:18:21 <ehird> and they're about ten minutes longer
10:18:27 <ehird> uberman's is actually more like 2 hours, not 3
10:18:38 <ehird> but more people do uberman's and it seems to work better
10:18:46 <ehird> fancy diagrams: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep#Comparison_of_sleep_patterns
10:18:49 <ehird> oklopol: no, one hour mor
10:18:55 <ehird> uberman's is usually done with 20 minutes naps
10:18:57 <ehird> thus why I said "up to 3"
10:19:04 <ehird> it's actually 2, basically
10:19:19 <ehird> but people adjusting to dymaxion tend to fall into deep sleep, iirc
10:19:21 <ehird> and so wake up groggy
10:20:44 <oklopol> where do you get one more hour, 30 minutes every 6 hours is 2 hours a day, like uberman
10:21:07 <ehird> Time magazine circa 194x :P
10:21:20 <ehird> uberman's is better
10:23:00 <ehird> oklopol: how long have you been awake
10:23:27 <ehird> oklopol: can you just skip forwards to about 20 hours sleepdep
10:23:33 <ehird> i need you to have impaired judgment.
10:25:09 <ehird> oklopol: i wanna start uberman's and don't trust myself to do it :P
10:25:18 <ehird> i should stop talking about things
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10:29:23 <oklopol> ehird: did you just predict Pthing's join
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10:30:33 <oklopol> ehird: you don't trust yourself to do it?
10:30:51 <ehird> like, I'll just give up unless someone else's uberman success depends on me bothering them about it over IRC :P
10:31:24 <oklopol> so you want an uberman irc buddy
10:31:50 <ehird> that sounds so uncouth.
10:31:57 <ehird> i want rational sleep-enabling codependence.
10:32:27 <oklopol> i have a rather hectic schedule this fall, but i might try at christmas time
10:32:47 <oklopol> Pthing: ehird can't afford that
10:32:59 <ehird> Pthing: girlfriends cannot appreciate the finer details of polyphasic sleep schedules
10:33:04 <ehird> also oklopol is kind of not a girl.
10:33:09 <ehird> (but only kind of)
10:33:10 <Pthing> they have some pretty good deals where you can pay in kind with methamphetamine
10:33:31 <ehird> anyway oklopol hectic schedule sounds fun, i have a hectic schedule of waking up, fucking around on the internet and sleeping
10:33:45 <oklopol> sure girlfriends can appreciate the finer details of polyphasic sleep schedules
10:34:14 <oklopol> mine is the same, plus a year's worth of courses in a single period
10:37:03 <ehird> [[Okay, here’s a development I didn’t expect: Commenter “Sharif” and a friend have been doing a polyphasic schedule that’s even more restrictive than Uberman.]]
10:37:15 <ehird> "The Tesla schedule involves 20 minute naps every six hours instead of every four, with no core-nap or other sleep"
10:37:32 <ehird> "More waketime, obviously. It's also more convenient than Uberman for those with 9-5 work/school (I only need to take one nap during my school day, for example)."
10:37:40 <ehird> http://tesser.org/sleep/teslapattern/
10:37:45 <ehird> oklopol: let's do it. whereby it is that.
10:37:56 <oklopol> i'd be fine with uberman :P
10:38:15 <ehird> oklopol: do you want to be uber or TESLA
10:38:47 <ehird> anyway to live on 1+1/3 hours of sleep a day, it's like a dream come true
10:40:17 <ehird> http://gill.tesser.org/ ;; this guy does 16 naps a day
10:42:16 <ehird> oklopol: haha, he actually does 16 x 4
10:42:32 <ehird> tesla is cooler though.
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10:42:41 <ehird> eventually we'll learn we can just not sleep.
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10:55:22 <oklopol> ehird: the 16 naps thing doesn't seem to work
10:55:34 <oklopol> at least near near the beginning, just started reading
10:56:17 <oklopol> i'm reading it in the wrong direction
10:56:27 <oklopol> they don't teach how blogs work at uni :\
10:57:06 <ehird> oklopol: you read bottom to top, fun fact.
10:57:53 <oklopol> yeah i know, there are only two directions.
10:58:57 <ehird> oklopol: totally wrong
10:59:19 <ehird> oklopol: vin and vount.
11:02:45 <ehird> oklopol: rudy rucker's 4th dimension directions
11:03:01 <ehird> hmm it's not vin i think
11:04:08 <ehird> analogy with out and in
11:04:25 <ehird> up and down (or down and up, w/e)
11:04:33 <oklopol> not that i still know what v is
11:04:40 <ehird> they're just arbitrary words.
11:05:06 <oklopol> i'm sure v is from something
11:05:26 <ehird> vokundblashhthptnorsthrptkhnot.
11:05:33 <ehird> cute word for cute people!
11:08:49 -!- ehird has set topic: vokundblashhthptnorsthrptkhnot http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
11:12:46 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=999999999999999-999999999999998&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
11:24:34 <ehird> the NEC LCD2490WUXi-BK display looks ridiculously awesome
11:29:22 <ehird> although the response-time is uncomfortably high, like all IPS displays
11:34:59 <ehird> would be nice to have a ton of money to throw at, say, two Eizo displays ;-)
11:57:46 <ehird> You like high-quality photography-grade displays, don't you?
11:58:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, sadly they tend to be expensive as hell
11:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: FEAST YOUR EYES:
11:58:55 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/NEC-Computers-LCD2490WUXI-BK-24-Inch-Widescreeen/dp/B000MT5J7I
11:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it same as you linked earlier
11:59:24 <ehird> Yeeeeeeeees, but you weren't back at home then.
11:59:33 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, iirc NEC monitors in general are often used as "reference monitors" in tests of cheaper monitors
11:59:46 <ehird> You were at home, but you weren't BACK at home
12:01:45 <AnMaster> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ <-- nice annotation to it
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12:39:03 <Deewiant> ehird: I guess I'm still leading the joust?
12:39:17 <Deewiant> Do I get a point for every correct False? :-P
12:39:20 <ehird> You're the only entry; want me to add const False?
12:39:45 <ehird> Identify non-opponent as False: +1
12:39:50 <ehird> Identify yourself as True: +1
12:40:07 <ehird> Let's actually make it
12:40:13 <ehird> Identify opponent as False: +1
12:40:18 <ehird> Identify opponent as True: -1
12:40:29 <ehird> Identify yourself as True: +0
12:40:36 <ehird> Identify yourself as False: KRR DISQUALIFIED
12:40:47 <ehird> So, (const False) immediately falls off.
12:40:51 <ehird> (const True) stays at 0.
12:41:28 <Deewiant> ehird: \(X f) -> not $ f (X (const $ f (X (const False))))
12:41:43 <ehird> Okay, now I actually gotta write code to run this
12:41:54 <Deewiant> I'll clean it up a bit, too; sec
12:42:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Care to name your two warriors? So I can report scores.
12:43:06 <Deewiant> Make it \(X f) -> not . f . X . const . f . X . const $ False
12:43:28 <ehird> May I suggest "naive" for (const True)
12:43:52 -!- jix has joined.
12:45:59 <Deewiant> Hmm, I guess "direct" is actually better: \(X f) -> f . X . const $ True
12:46:58 -!- M0ny has quit.
12:49:16 <ehird> Okay, let's try this
12:54:01 <ehird> Couldn't match expected type `X' against inferred type `(a, b)'
12:54:01 <ehird> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `fst'
12:54:02 <ehird> In the first argument of `filter', namely `((/= n) . fst)'
12:54:02 <ehird> In the second argument of `(.)', namely `filter ((/= n) . fst)'
12:54:38 <Deewiant> Instead of [(typeof n, something else)]
12:55:06 <ehird> warriors :: [(String,X -> Bool)]
12:55:10 <ehird> then sum . map (trial f) . filter ((/= n) . fst) $ warriors
12:55:14 <ehird> We report, you decide
12:55:57 <ehird> Good point, however
12:56:02 <ehird> It's complaining about the filt-
12:56:11 <ehird> map is expecting a certain type
12:56:12 <Deewiant> It's inferring something else from before
12:56:16 <ehird> so it complains that filter isn't providing it
12:56:42 <ehird> doesn't help the error, I'll just fit it
12:58:12 <ehird> [("Deewiant_naive",2),("Deewiant_invert",0),("Deewiant_direct",0)]
12:58:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Your complicated strategies suck balls :P
12:58:50 <ehird> where trial f g = if f (X g) then 1 else -1
12:58:51 <Deewiant> Shouldn't it be getting -2? :-P
12:59:09 <ehird> Deewiant: *Main> scores
12:59:10 <ehird> [("Deewiant_naive",-2),("Deewiant_invert",0),("Deewiant_direct",0)]
12:59:14 <Deewiant> It should get exactly -N where N is the number of opponents
12:59:25 <ehird> If we take naive out of the equation:
12:59:26 <ehird> [("Deewiant_invert",-1),("Deewiant_direct",1)]
12:59:44 <Deewiant> Hence 'I guess "direct" is actually better'
12:59:51 <Deewiant> And after checking vs. naive, "maybe not, whatever" :-P
13:00:22 <ehird> Deewiant: wouldn't direct be better if it started not .?
13:00:48 <Deewiant> Probably, but it wouldn't be "direct" then ;-)
13:01:22 <Deewiant> Go ahead and add it, call it "indirect" :-P
13:01:55 <ehird> [("Deewiant_naive",-3),("Deewiant_invert",-1),("Deewiant_direct",1),("ehird_indirect",1)]
13:02:17 <Deewiant> I had it with not . originally, actually
13:02:57 <Deewiant> I took it off because the not . version misidentifies invert as True
13:03:17 * ehird wonders why there isn't a Bool->Int
13:06:17 <Deewiant> Still... I wonder how complicated a strategy can be if you're returning a boolean
13:06:27 <Deewiant> X -> Int might be more interesting
13:06:49 <ehird> Very complicated, actually
13:06:58 <ehird> How does it respond to trivial functions? Mutations of itself? You?
13:07:16 <Deewiant> By returning either True or False :-P
13:07:45 <ehird> [("Deewiant_naive",-4),("Deewiant_invert",-2),("Deewiant_direct",0),("ehird_indirect",2),("ehird_crisis",*** Exception: stack overflow
13:08:57 <ehird> crisis being (\(X f) -> f . X $ not . f)), perhaps with a not . at the front
13:09:02 <ehird> But we need to bail out somehow, hmm
13:10:41 <ehird> ,("ehird_crisis", (\(X f) -> not . f . X $ \(X g) -> if g (X (const True)) then True else not $ f (X g)))]
13:10:45 <ehird> [("Deewiant_naive",-4),("Deewiant_invert",-2),("Deewiant_direct",2),("ehird_indirect",0),("ehird_crisis",2)]
13:11:08 <Deewiant> I can't help but wonder if, in the long term, the scores will just be random :-P
13:11:25 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't think so
13:11:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Should I write a function to tally up each warrior's results?
13:15:54 <ehird> ("Deewiant_naive",[("Deewiant_invert",True),("Deewiant_direct",True),("ehird_indirect",True),("ehird_crisis",True)])
13:15:54 <ehird> ("Deewiant_invert",[("Deewiant_naive",False),("Deewiant_direct",True),("ehird_indirect",True),("ehird_crisis",True)])
13:15:55 <ehird> ("Deewiant_direct",[("Deewiant_naive",True),("Deewiant_invert",False),("ehird_indirect",False),("ehird_crisis",False)])
13:15:55 <ehird> ("ehird_indirect",[("Deewiant_naive",False),("Deewiant_invert",True),("Deewiant_direct",False),("ehird_crisis",True)])
13:15:57 <ehird> ("ehird_crisis",[("Deewiant_naive",False),("Deewiant_invert",False),("Deewiant_direct",False),("ehird_indirect",True)])
13:16:13 <ehird> False/True being whether it thinks it's it or not
13:16:20 <ehird> So False is a win, True is a lose
13:16:23 <ehird> I'll make that clearer
13:16:35 <Deewiant> ehird: Just print two lists: wins and losses
13:17:48 <Deewiant> ehird: crysis: \(X f) -> not . f . X $ \(X g) -> if g . X . const $ False then True else f . X $ g
13:17:58 <ehird> Sec, lemme write this reporter first, then I'll add that
13:18:26 <Deewiant> It just permutes crisis's results a bit
13:20:44 <Deewiant> I need a name generator or something :-P
13:20:46 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/592988.txt?key=xhi1np88sh7mu7obm7pxw
13:21:07 <Deewiant> I have a winner, I need a name
13:21:29 <Deewiant> Mogul is cute, I'll go with that: \(X f) -> not . f . X $ \(X g) -> if f . X . const . g . X . const $ True then True else f . X $ g
13:21:55 <ehird> Does that make any more sense when you're not sleep deprived?
13:22:08 <ehird> Deewiant: You win against every other one.
13:22:17 <ehird> Which is that a yep to
13:22:23 <Deewiant> Yep, it's a winner, like I said
13:22:41 <Deewiant> As for sense, beats me, I don't really think these through well :-P
13:22:51 <ehird> ehird_interrogatorade (*** Exception: ehird_interrogatorade can't find itself
13:23:07 <ehird> ,("ehird_interrogatorade", (\(X f) -> f (X (const True)) && not (f (X (const False)))))]
13:23:17 <ehird> Trying to make direct not fail to naive :P
13:24:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you think recursion should be illegal? I think not, as you can just do let foo f' = ... in foo f
13:24:57 <ehird> ehird_interrogatorade (*** Exception: ehird_interrogatorade can't find itself
13:25:04 <Deewiant> Hmm, I think the 'else' case in mogul never happens at least with the current set
13:25:24 <Deewiant> Which makes sense, that's why it wins :-P
13:26:31 <ehird> ehird_interrogatorade (*** Exception: ehird_interrogatorade can't find itself
13:26:35 <ehird> Jesus christ fuuuuuuuuuuuck off
13:29:22 <Deewiant> ehird: commie: \(X f) -> f (X $ const True) == f (X $ const False)
13:29:56 <Deewiant> Beats all except naive, mogul still beats it though
13:30:09 <ehird> I'll add one of my own and then post a new scoreboard
13:32:02 <ehird> ehird_isometric (-8)
13:32:02 <ehird> LOSSES: Deewiant_naive Deewiant_invert Deewiant_direct ehird_indirect ehird_crisis Deewiant_crysis Deewiant_mogul Deewiant_commie
13:32:12 <ehird> ,("ehird_isometric", (\(X f) -> let direct (X g) = f (X (const True)); indirect (X g) = not $ f (X (const True)) in f (X direct) || f (X indirect)))]
13:32:28 <ehird> ehird_isometric (4)
13:32:28 <ehird> WINS: Deewiant_invert Deewiant_direct ehird_indirect ehird_crisis Deewiant_crysis Deewiant_mogul
13:32:29 <ehird> LOSSES: Deewiant_naive Deewiant_commie
13:32:36 <ehird> ,("ehird_isometric", (\(X f) -> let direct (X g) = f (X (const True)); indirect (X g) = not $ f (X (const True)) in f (X direct) == f (X indirect)))]
13:33:32 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/592998.txt?key=7ivzfiflc8sn2eq7kh2c0a
13:34:20 <Deewiant> Hmm, is commie equivalent to isometric?
13:35:00 <ehird> Deewiant: They're equivalent iff (f (X $ const _)) == (f (X $ (\(X g) -> g (X (const _)))))
13:36:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Also, in mogul, "if x then True else ..." is "X || ..."
13:37:13 <Deewiant> You can do that simplification if you want; I didn't bother telling you after I noticed it
13:37:40 <Deewiant> hippie: \(X f) -> f . X $ \(X g) -> (f . X . const . g . X . const $ True) /= (g . X . const . f . X . const $ False)
13:37:49 <Deewiant> marxist: \(X f) -> not . f . X $ \(X g) -> (f . X . const . g . X . const $ True) == (g . X . const . f . X . const $ True)
13:38:13 <ehird> Speaking of marks, these could be generated by a Markov chain :P
13:38:51 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/593003.txt?key=cp78jsssqbyebtqynwfpoq
13:39:03 <ehird> hippie is naively naive
13:39:20 <Deewiant> Oh, mogul loses to marxist, nice
13:39:39 <ehird> Deewiant: isn't (f (X (const True)) && f (X (const False)) a pretty good check for naive
13:40:25 <ehird> assuming you've discounted other possibilities
13:42:26 <Deewiant> Can you put up source for these? I crashed GHCi, losing its state and history :-P
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13:42:49 <ehird> Deewiant: btw, the if in mogul IS triggered
13:45:59 <ehird> just testing something
13:46:52 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/593012.txt?key=k1ts5epnjgvqdjrwwuu6g
13:46:59 <ehird> Includes free, mature testing and analysis tool :P
13:47:49 <Deewiant> Also includes an extra ] on line 15
13:47:58 <ehird> FOR FAMILY & FRIENDSHIP
13:49:52 <ehird> For inspiration, you could always watch http://www.vimeo.com/5003279; it makes about as much sense as our "strategies"
13:50:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Haskell Joust
13:50:56 <ehird> A game of self-identification and love!
13:51:26 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the goal? I mean "overwrite the opponent's memory" sounds a bit hard in haskell heh
13:51:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Basically, you're given another warrior of the same type
13:51:49 <ehird> And have to return True if it's you
13:51:51 <ehird> or False if it's not
13:51:59 <ehird> If you can't detect yourself as True, you're out of the game entirely
13:52:08 <ehird> Otherwise, +1 for correctly identifying a non-you as False
13:52:16 <ehird> -1 for incorrectly identifying it as True (i.e., "this is me")
13:52:22 <Deewiant> Hehe, I have one which beats mogul and nobody else
13:52:25 <ehird> The X stuff is because the type is a = a -> Bool
13:52:33 <ehird> So we need to wrap that
13:52:39 <ehird> Deewiant: and itself
13:52:48 <ehird> "Define a data type X with one constructor, X, taking a parameter of type X -> Bool".
13:52:50 <Deewiant> ehird: No, it's True for itself
13:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, so the point of this is trying to look like other programs while being able to tell yourself apart?
13:52:56 <ehird> Err, right Deewiant
13:53:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Basically, yeah.
13:53:09 <ehird> Fool opponents into thinking you're them; don't make the same mistake.
13:53:17 <ehird> You can see the current warriors in my pastie
13:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds fun. In what format to you see the other opponents?
13:53:28 <ehird> AnMaster: As the haskell functions they are
13:53:40 <ehird> You have to poke it with specially-constructed functions
13:53:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I can see how it works
13:54:02 <AnMaster> ehird, any time limit / points for being faster than the opponent?
13:54:22 <ehird> Do you see that in http://pastie.org/593012.txt?key=k1ts5epnjgvqdjrwwuu6g? But it's not automated right now, so I'll just ^C anything that lags.
13:54:26 <ehird> Right now the scoreboard runs in
13:54:26 <AnMaster> so you have to trade speed for accuracy or such
13:54:39 <ehird> % time runhaskell joust >/dev/null
13:54:39 <ehird> runhaskell joust > /dev/null 0.27s user 0.06s system 69% cpu 0.486 total
13:54:53 <AnMaster> ehird, any interesting strategies so far?
13:55:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure, see the paste
13:55:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Note that . is function composition, and f $ x is (f x), except x can stretch out.
13:55:32 <ehird> i.e., f $ g x is f (g x), not f (g) (x)
13:55:50 <ehird> And const is a function that always returns the given value; i.e. K
13:56:00 <AnMaster> so the table at the top is the warriors then hm
13:56:56 <AnMaster> ,("Deewiant_invert", (\(X f) -> not . f . X . const . f . X . const $ False))
13:57:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Current scoreboard: http://pastie.org/593020.txt?key=ab0r8excdmgjs96bpoyica
13:57:10 <AnMaster> does that call the warrior and see what it thinks then decides the reverse?
13:57:27 <AnMaster> because if not, that would be an interesting idea
13:57:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's just,
13:57:53 <ehird> Deewiant: explain invert to him
13:58:14 <Deewiant> I'm having too much fun with these things that beat exactly one dude
13:58:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:58:57 <oerjan> a household name, that
13:59:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Beating only one dude?
13:59:23 <ehird> Rethink that statement :P
13:59:35 <Deewiant> ehird: WINS: mogul LOSSES: everybody else
13:59:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Entrende
13:59:44 <Deewiant> I had one for crisis, too, IIRC
13:59:51 <Deewiant> Nah, I made it into a better one
14:00:41 <Deewiant> ehird: ("Deewiant_meta", let a <-- b = not b || a in \(X f) -> f (X $ \(X g) -> g . X . const $ True) || f (X $ \(X g) -> (g . X . const $ True) <-- (f . X . const $ True)))
14:01:27 <ehird> not b || a... surely that has a name
14:01:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so const $ False means (const False)? which is a... um...? I'm guessing list or pair.
14:01:59 <ehird> Same as "const False".
14:02:03 <ehird> Parentheses just group.
14:02:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: invert is: run the given function on a function that always returns False, then run it again on something that always returns what that just returned, then return the inverse of that result
14:02:11 <ehird> const is a -> b -> a
14:03:06 <ehird> Deewiant: I have an exceedingly silly idea which will be hideously long
14:03:08 <Deewiant> ehird: a || not b is implication, which doesn't have a name but I typically call it (-->), hence that is (<--)
14:03:15 <AnMaster> ehird, a . b . c would be (a (b (c))) right?
14:03:21 <ehird> Function composition.
14:03:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's a . b $ c, or a $ b $ c
14:03:33 <ehird> a . b . c is (\x -> a (b (c x))
14:03:49 <oerjan> Deewiant: i think something like --> is defined in quickcheck
14:04:03 <oerjan> except with weird semantics, not on just Bool
14:06:12 <AnMaster> ehird, X in there is the "own" warrior?
14:06:17 <ehird> @hoogle length . filter
14:06:21 <ehird> Look at the first line.
14:06:34 <ehird> I explained all of this before you started asking.
14:06:38 <ehird> Apparently you didn't listen
14:07:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> The X stuff is because the type is a = a -> Bool <-- aha right, missed that.
14:09:04 <ehird> joust: ehird_whollyfuckingshit can't find itself
14:09:05 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
14:09:15 <oerjan> ehird: so what happens if a test goes into an infinite loop?
14:09:33 <oerjan> no, i mean what is the score?
14:10:18 <ehird> ehird_whollyfuckingshit (0)
14:10:18 <ehird> WINS: Deewiant_invert Deewiant_direct ehird_indirect ehird_crisis Deewiant_hippie Deewiant_meta
14:10:18 <ehird> LOSSES: Deewiant_naive Deewiant_crysis Deewiant_mogul Deewiant_commie ehird_isometric Deewiant_marxist
14:10:24 <ehird> oerjan: The score is
14:10:31 <ehird> ((your disk whirrs))
14:10:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: invert is: run the given function on a function that always returns False, then run it again on something that always returns what that just returned, then return the inverse of that result <-- what is the logic behind that idea?
14:10:37 <ehird> ((your CPU fan spins))
14:10:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I mean, that warrior
14:10:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you think it's kosher for one warrior to refer to the list of warriors?
14:10:58 <AnMaster> as in, why did you think that would work well
14:11:06 <ehird> Because right now this one line is 1164 characters
14:11:31 <oerjan> ehird: dammit, you are dense. what i mean is, is there a point in trying to make your opponent go into an infinite loop?
14:11:42 <ehird> oerjan: Infinite loops are not handled in any way.
14:12:07 <ehird> Current scoreboard: http://pastie.org/593036.txt?key=k2yaglhjffsjs36jtcpgeg
14:12:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I didn't, it's just a simple thing which works for itself and beats (const True).
14:12:24 <ehird> Current code: http://pastie.org/593037.txt?key=yp0lk6yi5xgs14gpagi5w
14:12:28 <ehird> (WARNING: CONTAINS HUGE FUCKING LINE)
14:12:32 <oerjan> but what happens to the _scoreboard_ if a candidate tries that tactic?
14:12:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It was my first idea after const True.
14:12:43 <ehird> Deewiant: It's sorted according to newest warrior
14:12:52 <ehird> oerjan: It doesn't get printed out because the program is in an infinite loop.
14:12:57 <ehird> What's so hard for you to comprehend about this>?
14:13:00 <Deewiant> ehird: Consider sorting by score, maybe in a summary at the top
14:13:01 <ehird> trials :: String -> (X -> Bool) -> [(String,Bool)]
14:13:01 <ehird> trials n f = map (\(n',g) -> (n',f (X g))) $ others n
14:13:05 <ehird> It just won't terminate
14:13:14 <ehird> Deewiant: A summary? Whyever? :P
14:13:25 <Deewiant> trials n f = map (second $ f . X) $ others n
14:13:26 <ehird> Anyway, but I'm doing it as a mapM_ and it's so simple! Bah.
14:13:36 <Deewiant> ehird: To be able to see the ranking, dammit :-P
14:13:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Also, fail.
14:13:47 <ehird> That map won't work.
14:14:05 <ehird> Because it doesn't preserve the name
14:14:10 <ehird> Oh, wait, it's that funky arrow stuff
14:14:44 <oerjan> ehird: so it is essentially disqualified?
14:14:59 <ehird> oerjan: It blocks the whole thing and I remove it from the program.
14:19:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Scoreboard: http://pastie.org/593045.txt?key=81eqjha4erxadbubg1q3xq
14:19:32 <ehird> Code: http://pastie.org/593046.txt?key=jtx9ruqiksyixdl8g2qq
14:19:42 <ehird> whollyfuckingshit does amusingly well
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14:26:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Run out? :P
14:26:14 <Deewiant> ehird: ("Deewiant_repetitive", \(X f) -> f . X . const . f . X . const . f . X . const $ True)
14:26:24 <Deewiant> I think I'll stop there, though :-P
14:27:33 <Deewiant> I was missing something, I guess
14:27:38 <ehird> Deewiant: whollyfuckingshit?
14:27:57 <ehird> Deewiant: It's amazing, innit
14:28:40 <Deewiant> It uses all the warriors you had and returns number of Trues >= number of Falses?
14:29:11 <Deewiant> ehird: biggusDickus = compare `on` uncurry score
14:29:32 <ehird> I should get rid of the uncurries too
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14:29:59 <Deewiant> Hmm, does >= work better than > there
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14:30:20 <ehird> Deewiant: It errs on the side of caution for the sake of recognising itself
14:30:35 <ehird> joust: ehird_whollyfuckingshit can't find itself
14:30:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Add another warrior so there's an odd number ;-P
14:31:04 <ehird> How about reptitive
14:31:48 <ehird> ehird_whollyfuckingshit (7)
14:31:48 <ehird> WINS: Deewiant_invert Deewiant_direct ehird_indirect ehird_crisis Deewiant_crysis Deewiant_mogul Deewiant_hippie Deewiant_marxist Deewiant_meta Deewiant_repetitive
14:31:49 <ehird> LOSSES: Deewiant_naive Deewiant_commie ehird_isometric
14:31:51 <ehird> Deewiant: Kickass.
14:32:22 <Deewiant> I think repetitive is just sufficientnly weird
14:32:28 <ehird> Scoreboard: http://pastie.org/593054.txt?key=xmko71rxpbvekzecg
14:32:32 <ehird> Code: http://pastie.org/593053.txt?key=odlgsc4zehtwzbkn7uxua
14:32:40 <ehird> The crazy thing is that the warriors are looking for THEMSELVES
14:32:49 <ehird> So it's only identifying itself out of sheer luck :-)
14:33:08 <ehird> (X,Y) are quite good at collectively determining that Z is not either of them, though.
14:33:35 <ehird> Deewiant: It also reflects the general populace's ignorance wrt naive.
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17:40:43 <coppro> what's the command to locate an executable file?
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18:24:18 <AnMaster> coppro, also type, it will tell you if the shell thinks it is a built in command or a shell function
18:25:19 <Deewiant> AnMaster: whence cat --> /bin/cat
18:25:33 <AnMaster> bash: whence: command not found
18:26:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, type is POSIX though
18:36:24 <AnMaster> fast paced beeps during BIOS and no text on screen. hrrm
18:36:41 <AnMaster> and of course the computer owner has no idea about where the manual is
18:36:46 <AnMaster> I'd guess bad ram but who knows.
18:37:21 <AnMaster> which kind of disproves xkcd today. There is more to being a geek that just that flowchart ;)
18:54:03 <coppro> AnMaster: manual on the website, maybe?
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22:35:24 <ehird> I slept from 4pm - 7pm
22:35:31 <ehird> my body thinks it's about 3-4pm
22:37:24 <ehird> in the uk it's 22:36.
22:37:33 <ehird> cool, someone adapted to uberman's at 15
22:37:41 <ehird> proof that it cannot kill me!
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22:43:16 <ehird> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720 is the canonical resource on it.
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22:43:45 <ehird> coppro: tl;dr how to be more awake and active than regular sleeping schedules on only 2 hours of sleep a day, split up
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22:43:54 <ehird> (...with large caveats)
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22:45:01 <ehird> but there's a large sentiment of "if you do it when you're under 18, bears will come out of the woods and maul your developmental process, turning you into the world's first bear-related retard" around the community, for obvious reasons
22:46:53 <ehird> coppro: although the person's experience is questionable, since they also invented the tesla schedule
22:47:09 <ehird> which is uberman's, except instead of 6 x 20m every 4 hours, it's 4 x 20m every 6 hours
22:47:21 <ehird> so it's entirely possible they're just naturally hardcor
22:47:41 <coppro> seems to me the problem is you can't take naps in school usually
22:47:59 <ehird> people have managed it, iirc
22:48:02 <ehird> tesla obvs makes that easier
22:48:06 <ehird> since you can plan the 6 hours around it
22:49:55 <ehird> pretty stupid of me to want to try this really, as lack of sunlight depresses me
22:50:03 <ehird> but i'm not sleeping properly, want more time and can always buy one of those fancy lamps
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22:57:33 <ehird> ("I'm not diabetic. Some people can't help it, they were born with lack of sunlight.")
23:01:11 <coppro> I'm the same, but there's no way I could arrange for a nap during school, except during lunch, which is the best 30 minutes of the day
23:02:27 <ehird> Found your own polyphasic school! :P
23:12:24 <ehird> wow, the Eizo FlexScan S2242W can be rotated into portrait
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23:51:08 <ehird> "Isn't Ubuntu kinda famous for lack of any GUI frontends?"
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23:51:52 <GregorR> Ubuntu, Slackware, what's the diff
23:52:06 <ehird> GregorR: The latter is a BSD distro, duh
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02:18:22 <ehird> Hey... oerjan is mentioned in the Haskell 98 Report.
02:18:35 <ehird> "In addition, dozens of other people made helpful contributions, some small but many substantial. They are as follows: […] Orjan Johansen […]"
02:21:31 <ehird> Admittedly, it's in a list that has, at a glance, more than 100 items.
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03:03:04 <ehird> eizo displays are shiny
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04:16:21 <oerjan> <ehird> Hey... oerjan is mentioned in the Haskell 98 Report. <-- i sent in some error corrections
04:19:33 <pikhq> oerjan: So, you've been doing Haskell for quite a while.
04:19:56 <oerjan> that was back in 2001/2002 or so, when i was first learning it
04:22:02 <oerjan> <AnMaster> which kind of disproves xkcd today. There is more to being a geek that just that flowchart ;)
04:22:29 <oerjan> my thought about that was that a lot is hidden under the knowledge needed to understand that something _is_ related
04:46:04 <ehird> oerjan: so not 1998 or before thenw
04:46:09 <ehird> which would have been even more awesome
04:50:52 <ehird> can someone explain to me why people like CRTs so much for professional work
04:50:57 <ehird> aren't they inherently blurry
04:51:40 <oerjan> their radiation gives such a nice skin color
04:51:41 <ehird> hmm, aperture grill crts look less shit than most i've seen
04:51:45 <ehird> at least from my lcd :-P
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05:19:19 <ehird> I wonder if we have OLED visors yet
05:19:24 <ehird> must... become... cyborg...
05:20:31 <ehird> lol, i think my ideal wearable computer rig would have three cameras
05:20:42 <ehird> in front, in back, and mounted on the goggles/visor
05:20:46 <ehird> pointing at your eyes
05:20:56 <ehird> (for scrolling, naturally)
05:21:16 <ehird> Sgeo: Body Area Network exists
05:21:22 <ehird> Sgeo: http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/15/wearable-ecg-uses-patients-posture-for-encryption-transmits-da/
05:22:13 <Sgeo> It's not exactly commonplace, is it?
05:22:42 <ehird> anyway who wants a body area network when you can have a bluetoothin', wifin', 3gin' wearable computer.
05:22:50 <Sgeo> It should not be a pain to open links
05:23:40 <Sgeo> ehird, it's painful for me to open links I see on IRC. Firefox is so slow. Slow to start up, and slow to open new tabs
05:23:51 <ehird> Sgeo: try epiphany-webkit
05:23:59 <Sgeo> I'm on Windows
05:24:15 <Sgeo> Not when I feel like playing games
05:24:23 <Sgeo> Which I felt like when I turned my computer on today
05:24:38 <ehird> 3d virtualisation in your face
05:25:01 <Sgeo> Can I get my current Windows stuff in a VM?
05:25:36 <Sgeo> My current Windows install. Can I easily run it in a VM?
05:25:49 <ehird> Uhh, you could mount the partition in the VM, I guess.
05:26:00 <ehird> VMWare can do it, says googling.
05:26:04 <ehird> let's see if virtualbox can
05:26:11 <ehird> But with some reading you may be able to manage this. Just be very careful. One wrong move and you can trash the OS.
05:26:12 <ehird> Put this in Goggle.com raw access site:forums.virtualbox.org
05:26:12 <ehird> Also section 9.10. Using a raw host hard disk from a guest (read the warnings)
05:26:17 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes, you can.
05:26:23 <ehird> "I used the 'sudo VBoxManage internalcommands createrawvmdk -filename <FilePath> -rawdisk /dev/sda2 -register' command"
05:26:52 <ehird> Sgeo: So install VirtualBox in Ubuntu, run one command, add a new VM and choose the created file as the disk.
05:27:10 <Sgeo> I'll look into it
05:27:17 <ehird> Sgeo: It's one command
05:27:26 <Sgeo> I'm going to sleep soonish
05:27:33 <ehird> sudo VBoxManage internalcommands createrawvmdk -filename <put a path here> -rawdisk /dev/<the hd> -register
05:27:37 <Sgeo> And trying to install Zune
05:27:43 <ehird> and then <put a path here> is a vbox disk file
05:28:23 <Sgeo> ehird, so I can watch season 3 of The Guild sooner, hopefully
05:29:02 <Sgeo> I'll wait if it's not free on the Zune marketplace
05:29:14 <oerjan> no, it's cold, because it helps agains global warming.
05:31:33 <Sgeo> "Windows needs to restart to complete the installation"
05:31:48 <ehird> How is that surprising
05:31:56 * Sgeo tries without restarting
05:33:30 <Sgeo> Seems to be working
05:34:47 <Sgeo> Ok, apparently I can download season 1, but I don't see season 2
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06:32:21 <ehird> the internet is way too intwined
06:35:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: to intertwine?
06:36:05 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: buy a magic
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06:37:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: pay someone to mail you disks with your downloads on
06:37:34 <ehird> huge latency, massive bandwith
06:37:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: i volunteer
06:38:05 <ehird> i have an 8mbit connection that runs at ~6.5mbit, it isn't too good :P
06:38:14 <ehird> 800kiB/s max in practice, more often 500-600kiB/s
06:39:43 <ehird> i wanna get me some $15/mo usenet.
06:40:00 <ehird> march next year we get ADSL2+, I think, anyway; so I should be able to get 3072kiB/s
06:40:12 <ehird> i think the upload isn't too bad either
06:40:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: where do you live
06:41:02 <ehird> does the whole state have terrible interwebs or sth
06:41:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: anyway, my suggestion: there's a fibre-optic provider in norway that don't charge you $400 if you dig your own cables
06:41:39 <ehird> see if there's anything similar in your state
06:41:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: failing that, rent the cheapest and nearest possible space you can that you can get an okay internet connection to
06:42:22 <ehird> *doesn't, not don't
06:42:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: in wifi range?
06:42:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: your internet providers are fickle :P
06:42:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that won't be fast
06:43:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: wifi draft-n, i assume
06:43:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: uhh, it's a lot lot faster than g
06:43:48 <ehird> and a lot of modern routers have it
06:43:53 <ehird> inc. most wifi chips
06:43:55 <bsmntbombdood_> and g is a lot faster than any internet connection in the united states
06:44:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: yes, *at short range*
06:44:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: like, 2
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06:44:57 <ehird> they're basically flat.
06:45:12 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: anyway, all you'd need is
06:45:30 <ehird> (a) cheapest and nearest possible space that you can get decent interwebs to
06:45:41 <ehird> (c) mad scientist DIY skills
06:45:49 <ehird> (d) a satellite dish
06:46:04 <ehird> well, two satellite dishes
06:46:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: that's a lot less fun :P
06:46:32 <ehird> this would actually be practical, assuming you have the money to blow on the rent
06:47:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: well
06:47:39 <ehird> and if such satellitery is legal
06:49:38 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: you should totally do it
06:49:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: why not
06:50:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: look up how much it'd cost a month to get the netted storage space
06:51:58 <ehird> suck some rented storage space instead
06:53:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: sweden
06:53:59 <ehird> they have the same net, well, maybe 50mbit instead of 100mbit
06:54:01 <ehird> and also pirate party
06:54:10 <ehird> albeit less oerjan
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06:59:47 <ehird> the ipod touch first generation can boot freebsd
07:00:00 <ehird> i wish to torture you with fun operating systems.
07:00:38 <ehird> Issue: It'd probably involve, like, typing, on that fucking touchscreen.
07:00:56 <ehird> Solution: Wearable computing, again! Have they made those OLED visors yet?
07:03:46 <ehird> It's annoying that I could perfectly well build all the elements of my perfect werable computing rig - ARM computer, head-mounted camera, back-of-head-mounted camera, (single-spec) goggles with mounted fast-but-low-quality pointing at my eye camera (for glance-scrolling and double-blink choosing), and some things near my hands for mousing and keyboarding...
07:04:01 <ehird> the only screen I could have would be opaque and not part of the goggles.
07:04:22 <ehird> Irritating to the max, though otoh, if I have to look at the display separately, that makes eye-tracking less error-prone.
07:11:33 * coppro just discovered his editor has PGN syntax highlighting
07:11:57 <ehird> Your editor is cromulent.
07:12:20 * coppro is disturbed by that insight into ehird's thought processes.
07:12:47 <ehird> coppro: I have overly-sensitive pattern recognition facilities, especially phonetically.
07:13:14 <ehird> I also have a fondness for many small changes resulting in huge long-term changes.
07:13:15 <coppro> bsmntbombdood_: chess notation
07:13:19 <ehird> They are like FREEDOM!
07:13:33 <coppro> ehird: sure, I read it as pigeon. Still, getting from PGN to Simpsons is... well, it's something /I'd/ do
07:13:54 <ehird> coppro: when do you think the others will realise that i'm just sshing in and ircing as coppro
07:14:18 <ehird> it's the kind of joke i'd make!
07:14:24 <ehird> also I am you in agora. and real life.
07:14:30 <ehird> i have two bodies. maybe more
07:14:35 <ehird> hard to keep track, you know how it is with bodies
07:14:52 <ehird> root normal agglutination
07:15:24 <ehird> (h2g2 from "you know how it is with bodies")
07:15:30 <coppro> sorry, was away from keyboard
07:16:18 <coppro> ehird: my name isn't a joke
07:16:26 <coppro> well, isn't /intended/ to be one
07:16:32 <ehird> yes, you'd say that to further the illusion of you not being me
07:16:43 <ehird> I am prone to these antics, and outright revealing it is very silly to do if you want to keep up the ruse
07:16:47 <ehird> and thus people won't believe I am you
07:16:52 <coppro> We're all Ertai [/injoke]
07:16:53 <ehird> thus, indeed, keeping up the ruse
07:18:00 <coppro> ehird: If I'm you, why do you need to convince me of that?
07:18:21 <ehird> I don't. I'm carrying out this conversation so, as per the above lines, people keep believing the ruse.
07:18:23 <ehird> It's part of the fun.
07:18:30 <ehird> I know what you're going to say next, btw.
07:18:35 <ehird> Because I'll type it. But perhaps... not just now...
07:19:30 <ehird> Although it's getting boring waiting. Time to say it.
07:21:01 <ehird> Of course, by constantly amending my intentionally false predictions, I further the illusion of being distinct from coppro.
07:21:08 <coppro> this is like having an argument with myself... crap, that really doesn't sound right.
07:21:38 <ehird> coppro: Exactly like, in fact.
07:21:53 <coppro> so, want to scam Agora?
07:21:56 <ehird> That was an actual typo of mine.
07:22:05 <ehird> coppro: Sure, sockpuppet.
07:22:16 <coppro> precisely the scam I was thinking of
07:22:26 <ehird> Phill would be proud.
07:22:53 <ehird> coppro: something that earned me some months in chokey.
07:23:02 <ehird> I reg'd an alternate email, sent off a registration
07:23:06 <ehird> tick tock, 7 days - you know all this, btw -
07:23:19 <ehird> my incorrect claim to identity was...?
07:23:25 <ehird> Correct? Incorrect? I merged with Phill?
07:23:28 <ehird> I created a distinct entity?
07:23:39 <ehird> - I forget the exact result, but it was mundane and full of punishment and rage.
07:24:20 <ehird> coppro: Well, I did try and do an alt to circumvent something or other, or as an experiment, beforehand, and got summarily slapped on the wrist with a warning from Goethe, so it's not like I didn't know what'd happen.
07:24:24 <ehird> INTERESTING NOTE: You could say that me and coppro are, in fact, different people: not separate physical bodies, but personas; mentally distinct consciousnesses.
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11:32:08 <AnMaster> ehird, oh thought you were testing a new client or such.
11:32:16 <ehird> Nah, the power cut.
11:32:19 <ehird> Then I updated Colloquy.
11:32:34 <ehird> — good thing my disk wasn't being written to when it cut, eh.
11:34:27 <ehird> waste of money. and they buzz.
11:34:38 <ehird> (note: not a waste of money - for datacenters)
11:34:45 <ehird> AnMaster: some electronics stuff
11:34:53 <ehird> don't know the exact reason
11:35:41 * ehird wonders why all computer cases are ugly
11:35:46 <AnMaster> ehird, btw you saw what I said a few days ago about sun + screen right?
11:35:56 <ehird> with the exception of... the mac pro. oh, and the antec p182
11:36:03 <ehird> AnMaster: ehh, how many days
11:36:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
11:36:08 -!- ehird has joined.
11:36:08 -!- ehird has left (?).
11:36:13 -!- ehird has joined.
11:36:18 <ehird> i need to stop hitting cmd-w
11:36:56 <AnMaster> so could be the weekend earliest
11:37:03 <ehird> ehh can't you just tell me yo
11:37:19 <ehird> 02:23:13 <AnMaster> ehird: I tried outside in direct sunlight today. Hard to read, but still not impossible if at brightest setting. Impossible to read at 70% brightness in direct sunlight
11:37:19 <ehird> 02:23:37 <AnMaster> also depends on exact viewing angle it seems
11:37:22 <ehird> I responded to that
11:37:32 <ehird> I definitely read it
11:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I hope that answers all the questions you had?
11:38:09 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and any idea of a program for linux to measure your typing speed
11:38:24 <AnMaster> I'm interested in both average and max (that is burst)
11:38:33 <ehird> there's a good online one that shows you a random text snippet as you start
11:38:36 <ehird> so you can't memorise it
11:38:42 <ehird> although you might want to test typing
11:39:18 <ehird> but speaking of laptop displays
11:39:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well that would be much slower, since atm I know 1-2 words in advance what I will type and can move my hands in the right position
11:39:19 <ehird> "In other^2 news, I have discovered a means whereby ordinary laptop screens may be viewed legibly in very bright sunlight. The experimental prototype is 80% complete, and will hopefully stop eating my attention and desk space in the very near future."
11:39:29 <ehird> albeit from june last year
11:39:52 <ehird> Lisp machine, filesystem-abolishing, metacircular, type thing revival.
11:40:00 <ehird> "insane" is misleading; the current systems are insane.
11:40:04 <AnMaster> ehird, also what was the secret?
11:40:20 <AnMaster> ehird, the "means" he mentioned
11:40:31 <ehird> All I know is what I pasted. I have asked him
11:41:07 <ehird> Do you derive pleasure from mashing random words you hear together and calling them concepts? I get that feeling from you
11:41:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't mean it as a concept
11:41:30 <ehird> You do it very often if you don't enjoy it then
11:41:38 <ehird> AnMaster: so you mean lisp laptop as a non-concept
11:41:40 <AnMaster> but I just wanted a lisp machine in a laptop
11:41:46 <ehird> and then remarked on it being a fun idea, despite not being a concept
11:42:13 <AnMaster> ehird, fun idea to build, if I knew how
11:42:20 <ehird> AnMaster: It exists.
11:42:22 <ehird> Do you have a laptop?
11:42:31 <ehird> Quick, wipe it. Install 64-bit linux.
11:42:34 <ehird> Pirate OpenGenera.
11:42:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so... did you get opengenera working
11:43:07 <ehird> I could easily if I wanted, but I'm lazy.
11:43:23 <AnMaster> ehird, no luck with the new ubuntu I assume?
11:43:30 <ehird> Not even worth trying.
11:43:36 <ehird> OG is 90s software; it needs nothing more.
11:43:58 <AnMaster> ehird, source code for snap4 and patch it somehow to work with new X?
11:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: The least painful way, of course, is buying a DEC Alpha workstation.
11:44:05 <ehird> Also, why even bother?
11:44:07 <ehird> It works with old X.
11:44:23 <AnMaster> ehird, bitrot, in a few years getting that old X to work will be quite a pain
11:44:33 <ehird> Doubtful. XFree86 still works.
11:44:59 <ehird> Uhh, yeah. It's also still maintained, officially.
11:45:01 <AnMaster> blergh no alias for interrobang on laptop
11:45:09 <ehird> Least release uh, 2008-12.
11:45:22 <ehird> I think one of the BSDs uses it.
11:45:42 <AnMaster> maybe I should set up a vm with netbsd
11:45:48 <AnMaster> it is the only bsd I haven't tried
11:45:55 <ehird> AnMaster: You've tried DragonflyBSD?
11:46:13 <ehird> AnMaster: It has freezable processes!
11:46:17 <AnMaster> ehird, s/only bsd/only "classical" bsd/
11:46:27 <ehird> And AWESOME jails.
11:46:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, 4.3BSD, man.
11:46:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how do they differ from freebsd jails?
11:46:48 <ehird> They're more sandboxy
11:46:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, I tried that too
11:47:05 <ehird> Since October 10, 2006 PC-BSD has been supported by the enterprise-class hardware solution provider iXsystems.[1] In November 2007, iXsystems entered into a distribution agreement with Fry's Electronics whereby Fry's Electronics stores nationwide carry boxed copies of PC-BSD version 1.4 (Da Vinci Edition).[2] In January 2008, iXsystems entered into a similar agreement with Micro Center.[3]
11:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well it did under qemu a few years ago
11:47:34 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc vmware and 4.3BSD had a hate-hate relationship though
11:48:07 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... nop, was 4.3 I tried I think. Not completely sure though
11:48:15 <ehird> I didn't mean your line
11:48:20 <ehird> I just realised that 4.3 isn't the latest
11:48:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Incidentally, I learned today that FreeBSD runs on the iPhone.
11:48:45 <ehird> Now if only it had a keyboard.
11:49:01 <AnMaster> since it seems 4.3 wasn't for x86
11:50:07 <ehird> Oh, I also told bsmntbombdood_ to rent out some cheap space near him that can get alright internet access and use the two satellite dishes he has to beam 'er up to his impoverished-internet home via WiFi.
11:50:17 <ehird> Which is of highly questionable legality; practicality.
11:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, err I didn't follow that quite...
11:50:57 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_'s home can only get shitty internet.
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11:51:05 <AnMaster> ehird, latency is high with sat though
11:51:16 <ehird> It would be possible to rent out some space near his home that has good internet.
11:51:19 <ehird> (because of a better location)
11:51:24 <ehird> He has two sat dishes lying around
11:51:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean like a few hundred meters or so would make a big difference for internet quality?
11:51:44 <ehird> Hack up wifi router to use that dish to send, and DIY himself a receiver at his home...
11:51:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Nope; I mean miles. :P
11:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I see. just the *dishes*, with no sat involved
11:52:19 <ehird> Illegal and *awesome*.
11:52:25 <ehird> IMMA CHARGIN MAH WIFI
11:52:30 <ehird> IMMA FIRIN MAH WIFI
11:53:08 <AnMaster> well no, but that was the only way those references made sense to me
11:53:18 <ehird> Then you're stupid. :p
11:53:45 <AnMaster> ehird, it went like dish -> dish shape with the laser thingy of the death star in Star Wars -> laser
11:54:06 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what frequency do they use?
11:54:18 <ehird> They're DirecTV dishes.
11:54:34 <AnMaster> oh and with very good *directional* antennas I think you could actually do it legally. Maybe
11:54:46 <AnMaster> without going above allowed tx power
11:54:47 <ehird> How much would that cost?
11:54:53 <ehird> We're already talking a bunch for the rent
11:55:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well... a very very very good cantenna?
11:55:24 <ehird> The idea is to keep it plausible. :P
11:55:30 <ehird> (given reasonably large budget)
11:55:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder if it'd be possible to run ethernet cables instead.
11:55:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I heard of wifi across a km
11:56:10 <ehird> We're doing WiFi, that's a given.
11:56:24 <AnMaster> with one directional antenna at computer, and a normal access point
11:56:41 <AnMaster> so directional antennas at both end would probably manage a bit further than that
11:56:45 <ehird> I wonder how much a few miles of ethernet cable cost.
11:57:00 <ehird> Total distance between an Ethernet Transmitter and Receiver at the absolute end points of the network (maximum diameter from origin to final destination, if the wires were stretched out to form a straight line): 100 Meters (328 ft., 109 yds., or about the length of a football field). This limitation results from the timing of the Ethernet signals on the cable and not necessarily the cable characteristics, and is, therefore, a "hard" number.
11:57:01 <AnMaster> ehird, um. won't work, isn't max length like 100 meters
11:57:06 <ehird> AnMaster: just have routers
11:57:25 <ehird> AnMaster: run a really long power cbale
11:57:55 <AnMaster> ehird, fiber will manage quite far with no repeaters
11:57:57 <ehird> AnMaster: but where would you put it
11:58:02 <ehird> you can't put them underground, that's illegal
11:58:09 <ehird> and you can't prop up masts
11:58:13 <AnMaster> ehird, where would you put the ethernet cable then?
11:58:29 <AnMaster> then we are back at good directional antennas
11:58:41 <AnMaster> which I think could actually work, assuming a free line of sight
11:58:47 <ehird> AnMaster: that's implausible
11:58:54 <ehird> we're not talking about the middle of nowhere here
11:59:21 <ehird> Even if where bsmntbombdood_ lives is isolated,
11:59:26 <ehird> The place where the good internet is,
11:59:28 <ehird> Would not be isolated,
11:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I see the issue...
11:59:35 <ehird> Even if bsmntbombdood_ has bad internet,
11:59:38 <ehird> In his non-urban place.
11:59:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well you want to fry those urban places?
11:59:49 <ehird> Who gives a fuck about urban places!
11:59:52 <AnMaster> which is what the alternative to free line of sight would be
11:59:56 <oklopol> yay, i debugged my haskell program for hours because it inferred the return type of scale to be Int instead of Integer \o/
12:00:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Or, a bunch of satellite dishes, chained
12:00:16 <oklopol> all my errors seem to be bignum errors nowadays
12:00:21 <ehird> Though you have to rent a 349583459873453495 places
12:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Rent a bunch of places, duh
12:00:27 <ehird> Daisy chaining them
12:00:57 <ehird> pikhq has sat internet.
12:01:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_'s 1mbit connection is faster.
12:01:13 <AnMaster> but who cares about latency ;P
12:01:36 <ehird> Anyway, he said moving would probably be the best option.
12:01:39 <ehird> But thought experiment, bitch.
12:01:43 <AnMaster> well, apart from gamers, people using irc, and most people using TCP
12:02:05 <ehird> IRC uses TCP, fun fact.
12:02:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. Why not just hack google's plans for new data centers to place one next to him
12:02:32 <ehird> Remember what I said about plausible?
12:02:45 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, *plausible* thought experiment
12:03:10 <ehird> It's esoteric because it's not something you'd ever do.
12:03:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and I know about irc using tcp :P
12:03:19 <ehird> But that doesn't mean the solution has to be impractical; it's easy to be impractical.
12:03:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit.
12:03:54 <ehird> Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
12:04:10 <ehird> It's just totally boring, what you're saying, you see.
12:04:35 <oklopol> any of you have knapsack problem instances you want to approximate fully polynomially?
12:04:47 <ehird> oklopol: http://xkcd.com/287/
12:04:56 <oklopol> that doesn't have a solution
12:04:59 <ehird> oklopol: yes, it does
12:05:04 <oklopol> assuming it's the restaurant one
12:05:13 <ehird> although randall thought only on
12:05:16 <ehird> his code was buggy
12:05:18 <ehird> turns out there's two.
12:05:30 <ehird> so get on it, bitch
12:06:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, how would you do it polynomially? I thought it was NP?
12:06:34 <oklopol> it's a fully polynomial *approximation*
12:06:37 <ehird> You're retaaaaaaaaaaaaaarded
12:06:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, missed that word
12:07:21 <oklopol> knapsack problem and subset sum are both np-complete, but they can both be approximated to any percentage in polynomial time
12:07:30 <ehird> oklopol: gogogogogogo xkcd
12:07:33 <oklopol> fully polynomial means the time is also polynomial in the inverse of the epsilon
12:10:53 <AnMaster> a group of students passing, speaking German. With a guide.
12:11:11 <AnMaster> and then a minute later, one group speaking English
12:11:31 <AnMaster> and just now I think Italian, but not completely sure
12:11:38 <AnMaster> could be some other similar language
12:12:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't think of a good explanation...
12:12:12 <oklopol> mine doesn't find it, and neither does http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p454663626.txt, and neither did a guy on #math when that was linked there
12:12:53 <oklopol> so if there is one, i'm interested in knowing what it is
12:12:54 <ehird> oklopol: do you want me to link to 5 billion people solving it or do you want to avoid the embarrassment and fix your code
12:13:21 <ehird> oklopol: first one i found: http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/2009/06/xkcd-knapsack-solution.html
12:13:23 <AnMaster> ehird, oh probably student exchange thingy
12:13:31 <oklopol> there is a solution if you assume the 7 is actually a 1
12:13:46 <oklopol> but that would be a weird assumption
12:13:52 <ehird> oklopol: http://paddy3118.blogspot.com/2009/06/xkcd-knapsack-solution.html
12:14:03 <AnMaster> ehird, at least that is my best guess
12:14:49 <oklopol> oh you can choose two of one?
12:14:49 <ehird> oklopol: so there, bitch
12:14:52 <ehird> ........................
12:15:00 <ehird> of course it's impossible if you can't
12:15:16 <oklopol> of course? that's the usual subset sum :P
12:15:19 <ehird> of course you can choose more than one of one.
12:15:25 <ehird> otherwise it's trivially impossible
12:15:33 <AnMaster> oh indeed, introduction for exchange students
12:15:34 <oklopol> if you can choose two of one, then in fact it is not an instance of subset sum
12:15:46 <oklopol> because the fucking name implies you choose a subset
12:16:12 <ehird> oklopol: Randall never said subset sum
12:16:12 <oklopol> actually i guess he doesn't say subset sum anywhere
12:16:40 <ehird> http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines
12:16:54 <oklopol> says knapsack problem, that is usually just one of each, but yeah, that could mean any of each.
12:17:03 <ehird> oklopol: so get on it bitch
12:17:15 <ehird> oklopol: i want approximatorors
12:17:33 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, i answered your damn question
12:17:34 <oklopol> my approximator doesn't allow you to take any of each
12:17:45 <ehird> oklopol: fix it :P
12:17:52 <ehird> oklopol: uh, aren't all NP problems reducable to another
12:17:55 <oklopol> at least yet, i'm planning to include that too, later, but it's rather complicated
12:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I was trying to make a joke about snap ;P
12:17:57 <ehird> so reduce the multi one to ... single one
12:18:06 <oklopol> god i hate talking to you about math
12:18:14 <ehird> oklopol: umm, I'm pretty sure they are
12:18:15 <oklopol> you're so fucking smug and don't know shit
12:18:22 <oklopol> THEY AREN'T SHUT THE FUCK UP
12:18:25 <ehird> i could stop talking to you if you want
12:18:41 <ehird> ...or not, because i enjoy irritating you
12:18:58 <oklopol> ehird: the multi one can be trivially reduced to the single one by adding many of the same object.
12:19:04 <AnMaster> ehird, damn. I was going to ask you if you would stop talking if I asked you as well
12:19:13 <oklopol> but i'm not going to implement that because i'm implementing a better scheme for that later.
12:19:55 <oklopol> the obvious enhancement is to have only the "binary digits" of each object, have on of the object, one of it*2, one of it*4 etc
12:20:10 <oklopol> but there are better ways still, iirc
12:20:27 <oklopol> the whole problem drops like an order or something
12:20:38 <oklopol> you can approximate better
12:21:41 <oklopol> ehird: anyway all np-complete problems can reduced to each other, the *definition* of np-complete is a problem is in it if it's in np, and all that is in np can be reduced to it.
12:22:11 <ehird> "np-complete is a problem is in it if it's in np"
12:22:17 <ehird> so np-complete subset-of np?
12:22:31 <oklopol> np-hard is when you drop the requirement of being in np
12:22:32 <ehird> I didn't know np != np-complete
12:23:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> I didn't know np != np-complete <-- seriously?
12:23:32 <ehird> vaguely, I mean I know what's in np and shit
12:23:38 <ehird> and I think I know the basics of its definition
12:24:04 <oklopol> what are the basics of its definition?
12:24:08 <ehird> AnMaster: please do not act incredulous at a piece of knowledge I lack in future or I will be forced to dig up a billion obvious things you didn't know either
12:24:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: do you know what np is?
12:24:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't as if you didn't already do that
12:24:27 <ehird> oklopol: not having an O(n) solution, obvs, and then other stuff. i'm sort of tired
12:24:36 <ehird> oklopol: worthless asking AnMaster that, he'll just go look it up on wp
12:25:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, well yes. the complexity class of Non-polynomial problems. IIRC that is non-polynomial in time, non-polynomial for memory being some other class?
12:25:30 <oklopol> better that he looks up, learns and lies than that he just doesn't know.
12:25:32 <ehird> NP is not non-polynomial
12:25:43 <ehird> it's nondeterministic polynomial.
12:26:03 <AnMaster> oh mixed it up with np-complete. At least I knew NP != NP-complete
12:26:04 <ehird> so AnMaster, you seriously just "seriously"'d me for something you don't know yourself :)
12:26:09 <oklopol> AnMaster: basically you have a machine that has amb. whatever it does in polynomial time is in np.
12:26:31 <AnMaster> well np-complete you can verify in polynomial
12:26:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's the other definition
12:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: that's exactly the wording on wikipedia
12:26:56 <ehird> somehow i doubt the originality of that thought
12:27:28 <oklopol> the verification idea is more accessible to most ppl, but it's less general, that is, stuff like ATM's are harder to describe like that
12:27:34 <AnMaster> ehird, it is? I don't have browser open. I don't claim I thought of it myself, I read about it some time ago
12:27:38 <oklopol> so it's kinda like learning calculus the intuitive way
12:27:52 <oklopol> it's easy and fun, but it's useless if you wanna learn topology later
12:27:55 <AnMaster> must be a few months ago I last read about np-complete and such
12:28:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: you can verify *NP* in polynomial time
12:28:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: that's exactly the wording on wikipedia <-- what page, just opened browser on np-complete and checked
12:29:02 <AnMaster> "# Any given solution to the problem can be verified quickly (in polynomial time); the set of problems with this property is called NP."
12:29:08 <AnMaster> doesn't look like the same wording
12:29:20 <ehird> clearly, AnMaster, it only counts if you copy the bytes 1:1
12:29:27 <oklopol> that's the wording i used.
12:30:23 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> well np-complete you can verify in polynomial <AnMaster> that is part of the point <ehird> AnMaster: that's exactly the wording on wikipedia
12:31:06 <ehird> hypothesis: you could kill AnMaster by utilising his urge to smarmily debunk everything you say no matter how long i t takes
12:31:15 <ehird> or how trivial and offhand your original statement was
12:31:23 <ehird> basically, he'd not have any time for food, drink, sleep etc.
12:32:27 <oklopol> i'm far less annoyed by whatever annoying AnMaster did that i didn't notice, than your annoying way to state untrue things about complexity theory without even bothering to memorize the few basic definitions even my mom knows.
12:33:06 <ehird> oklopol: yes, but I relish in stating things without a "but I'm ignorant and might be wrong", because (a) I consider that implicit in everything I say and (b) it riles you up which is cute.
12:35:39 <oklopol> okay sorry i'm just having my period
12:36:11 <ehird> oklopol: i wouldn't put it past you
12:37:02 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I was eating a sandwich while I was chatting above :P
12:37:55 <oklopol> actually my mom has no idea what the whole nondeterministic stuff is all about, even though i've tried to explain it like a gazillion times
12:38:08 <ehird> that is because she is your mom.
12:38:26 <oklopol> my dad usually at least pays attention, then asks something completely stupid that shows he didn't understand a thing :<
12:38:38 <oklopol> and i'm like "uhh... sure :("
12:38:49 <oklopol> "you got it, i'll go read now"
12:38:58 <ehird> oklopol: try and explain something I know nothing about to me, and I will be infuriating
12:39:05 <ehird> it'll be theraputic, whereby theraputic i mean hilarious for me
12:39:39 <oklopol> but i suck at explaining anything nontrivial, because i'll just get all like "uhh... can't you just read the algebra"
12:40:06 <ehird> oklopol: let us assume, for the sake of infuriation, that i know no algebra whatever (NO JOKES ABOUT THIS BEING TRUE KTHX)
12:41:05 <oklopol> well okay do you know what groups are
12:41:22 <ehird> oklopol: Nope, because fictional I are mathtardde
12:41:33 <oklopol> algebraic structures, one of which a group is, are these things where you have a set of objects, and a few operations between them
12:41:55 <ehird> oklopol: what's an algebraic structure, what's a set, what's an object, what's an operation
12:42:32 <oklopol> i defined algebraic structure already, a set is an unordered collection of objects, object is just anything, operation is a dude who, given some dudes, gives out another dude
12:42:48 <ehird> oklopol: what's ordering, also i don't get what you mean by dude
12:42:52 <oklopol> and for operation, it's deterministic, it's a function
12:42:53 <ehird> is it like, representing a person?
12:43:03 <ehird> eh? what's deterministic? what's function?
12:43:29 <oklopol> :P is the class of problems even your colon has enough brain cells to compute in polynomial time
12:43:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: Nope, because fictional I are mathtardde <-- grammartard too!
12:43:46 <ehird> oklopol: well ask your colon to talk to me!
12:44:17 <oklopol> also even though i could break the ordering thing down, i'm not sure i can break down the definition of a set without introducing predicate calculus
12:44:33 <ehird> what have pebbles got to do with this
12:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, when are you going to start pretending to be stupid? So far you seem like your usual self ;P
12:45:51 <oklopol> i thought it was a pet name for something
12:45:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't get the calculus <=> pebbles joke...
12:46:19 <oklopol> AnMaster: some of the deadly pebbles in humans are called that
12:46:21 -!- ehird has set topic: What have a dog got to do with this? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
12:46:31 <oklopol> you know the ones that form around
12:47:04 <oklopol> let's see what my personal internet says
12:47:11 <oklopol> Pathology. An abnormal concretion in the body, usually formed of mineral salts and found in the gallbladder, kidney, or urinary bladder, for example.
12:47:23 <oklopol> you should get one of those, it's handy
12:47:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh are those called calculus?
12:48:23 <oklopol> ah you said "what *have* pebbless..."
12:48:34 <AnMaster> well not odd I didn't get the joke. And no interwiki links to Swedish for it.
12:48:41 <oklopol> i thought has, something about the dude being called pebbles 8|
12:48:42 <ehird> you're just dumb AnMaster
12:48:58 <AnMaster> ehird, wrong. I just had no clue about the other meaning of the word calculus
12:50:06 <oklopol> AnMaster: this was the first time i saw the word in actual use
12:50:50 <oklopol> i mean outside text... i think i've heard it outside a dictionary though
12:50:57 <oklopol> (irc != text in this context)
12:51:54 <oklopol> but doesn't the word calculate have something to do with pebbles being used for calculation or something... or maybe it's a mnemonic
12:52:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, yeah it is how you take the medical product of two vectors
12:54:24 <ehird> AnMaster: was that an attempt at a joke?
12:54:40 <oklopol> AnMaster: vectors can't be multiplied :P
12:55:24 <oklopol> well there are many products for them, but usually in a vector space you don't have a V x V -> V except for addition
12:55:30 <ehird> "I started the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. AMA"
12:55:31 <ehird> Do you want 400 or 401 manbabies?
12:55:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, indeed. but I was just making a reference to "dot product", something I'm sure you know about
12:56:35 <ehird> ............................but it wasn't............funny
12:56:55 <oklopol> i can't say whether it was funny or not, i didn't get it, even though i got the reference
12:57:24 <oklopol> something from math, something from medicine, spliced together, like ehird did with calculus
12:57:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, wikipedia page was Calculus (medical) for the other meaning of calculus
12:57:40 <ehird> right, exploding stones
12:58:06 <ehird> didn't you listen to oklopol
13:00:21 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's a common plural of "us"
13:01:47 <ehird> oklopol: isn't it cactuci
13:02:36 <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
13:03:02 <ehird> `addquote <ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
13:03:03 <HackEgo> 77|<ehird> no Deewiant <Deewiant> No?! <Deewiant> I've been living a lie <ehird> yep. <Deewiant> Excuse me while I jump out of the window ->
13:03:16 <Deewiant> It didn't open far enough, oh well.
13:03:46 <oklopol> ehird: 14.85 is what i get for at most 30% error: 5.80, 3.55, 3.35, 2.15
13:04:01 <ehird> oklopol: what about at most 0.1% error
13:04:56 <ehird> <other people> I want to suck your cock <other people> err, wrong window
13:04:56 <oklopol> i've never gotten even near the theoretical worst case
13:04:59 <ehird> <AnMaster> hm <AnMaster> err, wrong window
13:05:15 <ehird> AnMaster is terrified that we'll mistakenly attribute incorrect context to his hmming.
13:05:35 <oklopol> what would need to happen is that the greedy solution be close to its worst case
13:05:58 <oklopol> but it usually finds the correct solution for random input
13:06:03 <oklopol> or at least very close to it
13:06:16 <oklopol> i'm sure you all know what "the greedy algo" is for knapsack
13:06:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster is terrified that we'll mistakenly attribute incorrect context to his hmming. <-- yes that would be horrible
13:07:04 <ehird> the other end of the spectrum is augur
13:07:15 <ehird> when he says "I want to suck your cock", it's hard to even find out which channel he meant
13:07:21 <ehird> it's like, his catchphrase
13:07:26 <ehird> other people go "er", augur goes that
13:09:04 <oklopol> heh, the fact the greedy solution is a 0.5 approximation is "folklore" according to one of the papers :P
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13:15:58 <ehird> To knapsack is a funny term.
13:16:21 <AnMaster> ehird, [greedy solution] to knapsack ;P
13:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, but you are ehirding I see.
13:17:52 <oklopol> you are both being very funnoying
13:17:52 <AnMaster> bbiab, going to suspend laptop to move to another building, any scrollback before I announce I'm back will likely be missing due to forgetting to exiting client at home.
13:18:03 <ehird> oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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13:33:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo <-- last line for me
13:33:44 <ehird> you missed a very important line
13:34:36 <AnMaster> http://images.google.se/images?q=vaniljmunk&hl=sv <-- what's that in English
13:35:24 <AnMaster> ehird, vanilla or chocolate filled?
13:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, multiple pictures :P
13:37:20 <AnMaster> doughnut with no hole in it, filled with vanilla cream, and lots of sugar on top
13:37:31 <ehird> a falafel, AnMaster
13:37:50 <AnMaster> oh and it is topologically un-equivalent to a coffee cup!
13:37:55 <ehird> a falafel, AnMaster
13:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, nah that is something else says google
13:38:30 <ehird> in idiomatic usage
13:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, this is what I'm talking about: http://www.delicato.se/produkt/big/41_appeloch_vaniljmunk.jpg (but no apple in the one I ate)
13:39:01 <ehird> falafel, in the uk
13:39:14 <AnMaster> ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falafel
13:39:32 <ehird> that's not what it means here
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13:40:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, well there was two possible joke-y interpretations of that at least.
13:40:52 <AnMaster> oklopol, not sure I got the one you intended
13:41:03 <oklopol> i... just said dynamite, sorry :P
13:41:07 <AnMaster> bbl again (scrollback rules above apply)
13:41:11 <oklopol> need to go wash like dishes and stuff
13:41:26 <ehird> AnMaster: wtf were the "jokes"
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13:50:11 <AnMaster> <oklopol> need to go wash like dishes and stuff <-- last line this time
13:50:18 <ehird> AnMaster: wtf were the "jokes"
13:50:46 <ehird> i... just said dynamite, sorry :P
13:51:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, turned out he didn't joke intentionally
13:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, try at least keep it on one line for one irc line? ok?
13:51:27 <ehird> so what were the """"""""""jokes"""
13:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well remember one. will give you a hint: roadrunner
13:52:33 <ehird> HOW IS THAT RELATED TO DOUGHNUTS
13:59:05 <oklopol> so, for some reason, dynamite is the reason you thought falafels were like that
13:59:39 <oklopol> although i don't think you have any attributes of either coyotes or roadrunners, so i don't see how that works
13:59:51 <oklopol> or maybe there was some other way i could've meant it
14:00:26 <oklopol> well there's the obvious "maybe you both explode so i don't have to watch you arguing all day?"
14:09:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, calculate dot product for a coyote(*) throwing a normal sized(**) dynamite stick.
14:10:06 <AnMaster> (*) standing at origio, looking along x axis at road runner
14:10:16 <AnMaster> (**) Cartoon standards for normal sized
14:10:43 <AnMaster> (***) No, it isn't supposed to make sense, if it does, it is just a coincidence!
14:14:45 <oklopol> you are crazier than i am :P
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14:26:19 <AnMaster> huh? no zsnes package in ubuntu
14:27:38 <AnMaster> but that works with multilib so wth
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15:51:21 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oklopol, calculate dot product for a coyote(*) throwing a normal sized(**) dynamite stick. <-- clearly the dot product must be zero, since by cartoon physics the stick will always explode at the site of the coyote itself
15:51:45 <oerjan> regardless of how convoluted a path it takes to get there
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16:18:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, now calculate the path
16:19:59 <oerjan> it is not deterministic
16:20:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, correct word by word heh
16:20:35 <oerjan> in fact it follows the principle that whatever path you calculate, that will certainly be nowhere close to the actual path taken
16:20:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, DID YOU COPY IT FROM THE TEXT BOOK?
16:20:55 <oerjan> i haven't seen the text book
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16:21:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, that's what SHE said ;P
16:21:08 <oklopol> did you watch it in cartoon form
16:21:22 <oklopol> that would be one awesome linear algebra course
16:22:18 <oklopol> oerjan: and to clarify AnMaster's joke, she said that to you, that *you* haven't seen the text book. of you know sex. because she thought you sucked.
16:23:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, err... I lost track of the prepositions in there
16:23:49 <AnMaster> the highlight colour confused me
16:23:53 <oerjan> oklopol: hah your secret identity has been revealed, joke_explainer
16:24:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, reference to mezacotta?
16:25:44 <oerjan> joke_explainer is a commenter account there, which explains jokes
16:25:58 <AnMaster> instead of looking like a pun on reddit, it looks like re-add
16:26:18 <oerjan> i suggest you resubtract that pun, then
16:26:29 <oklopol> oerjan: no no joke *clarifier*
16:27:15 <oerjan> oklopol: no use explaining away my logic, that's no joke
16:27:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is no explaination...
16:27:51 <oklopol> can i be a joke not understander when it comes to the current pun
16:28:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, that's no moon. Get it?
16:28:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but the typo made it actually true instead
16:28:20 <oerjan> oklopol: yes but you'll have to pay an extra surcharge
16:28:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: no not really :\
16:28:49 <AnMaster> well, episode 4, which was the first one produced
16:28:51 <oklopol> i've seen some of them when they were new
16:29:17 <oklopol> "that's no moon" about some huge mothership
16:29:30 <oerjan> the DEATH STAR, oklopol
16:29:55 <oklopol> is death star the one that looks like a moon
16:30:15 <oerjan> it is rougly spherical, yes
16:30:43 <AnMaster> I suck at popular culture... but seriously oklopol... you are worse
16:30:58 <oerjan> actually it is probably not big enough that a moon that size would have to be spherical
16:31:17 <oklopol> well i take that as a compliment, even though i doubt it
16:31:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, not sure of the scale in there
16:31:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, also physics can go fuck itself in star wars...
16:32:15 <oerjan> you need to invent some way of ftl for a galactic civ, hyperspace is as good as any
16:32:17 <AnMaster> and: what happened to inertia?
16:32:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, worm holes seems at least slightly less implausible
16:32:39 <oerjan> antigravity and inertia breaking are more or less equivalent, i should think
16:33:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, what about biology then. Is every planet just one type of terrain?
16:33:21 <oklopol> and hyperspace implies inertia breaking, doesn't it
16:33:36 <AnMaster> oklopol, depends on how you implement it...
16:33:37 * oerjan points out that the Star Wars implausability debate is that way ->
16:33:54 <AnMaster> city planet, desert planet, forest planet, water planet (iirc, wasn't it where the clones came from)
16:34:08 <oklopol> that's a simple physics question
16:34:11 <oklopol> i don't give a shit about sw
16:34:34 <oklopol> i just watch american tv shows
16:34:50 <oklopol> me neither, but i watch tv shows
16:34:52 <AnMaster> and very seldom movies as well
16:34:57 <oerjan> oklopol: hyperspace i cannot say what it implies
16:35:18 <oklopol> oerjan: not simple enough for you huh??
16:35:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, hyperspace could imply folding space time itself. There are issues with that too of course...
16:35:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: well some of those are plausible, given vast difference in planet composition or climate
16:35:41 <oklopol> i guess i just meant if it's > light speed, you need to break inertia because there'd be an infinite amount of it
16:35:47 <oklopol> but yeah dunno hey i haven't idea
16:35:48 <oerjan> but a forest planet seems a bit off
16:36:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, and what about those animals on the ice plantet
16:36:13 <AnMaster> oerjan, you know, that han solo was riding on for example
16:36:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: biology is rarely the strong point of popular scifi i should think ;D
16:36:48 <AnMaster> I just can't imagine that planet supporting the required food. Like you know, plants, predators and all that
16:36:56 <oklopol> and maybe like a snow man that can fly
16:37:48 <AnMaster> oklopol - Making comments that could possibly be considered to be slightly relevant in the right light since <insert relevant year here>
16:38:40 <oerjan> "Various sources state the first Death Star has a diameter between 120 and 160 kilometers."
16:40:00 <oerjan> hm it's bigger than phobos and deimos
16:40:16 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not a comment, it's a question
16:41:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and why didn't they put the shield generator inside the second death star? I always wondered. Sure it wouldn't be possible early on, but at the point in the movie it had already reached a large enough size to support the generator station shown on ground in the movie
16:41:07 <oerjan> "The original draft of the 2006 IAU resolution redefined hydrostatic equilibrium shape as applying "to objects with mass above 5 × 1020 kg and diameter greater than 800 km""
16:41:29 <oerjan> in other words, a moon the size of the death star would not necessarily be spherical
16:41:43 <oklopol> oerjan: also it's made of pure metal
16:41:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, well earth isn't spherical either
16:41:49 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet#Size_and_mass)
16:42:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, I would assume they would use composite materials too
16:42:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: hydrostatic equilibrium is the technical term
16:42:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does it has to do with water
16:42:34 <AnMaster> which I assume "hydro" there is about
16:42:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: i mean, it's harder to break than rock.
16:42:51 <oklopol> otherwise it'd be too easy to blast into pieces
16:43:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: water flows, and therefore always reaches equilibrium
16:43:40 <oklopol> so what i'm saying is HSE would apply even less
16:44:08 <oerjan> for a planet, it must have gravity strong enough to overcome the strength of its material, iiuc
16:44:32 <oklopol> you mean that's the definition?
16:44:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah, but weren't it like... molten... back when it formed. Due to impact and such
16:45:29 <AnMaster> anyway my point was that molten material would form more easy in a sphere shape than cold rock
16:45:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: well yeah but it would still collapse into a rounded form if it were solid throughout, iiuc
16:46:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, wouldn't it make the rock crack and such
16:46:49 <AnMaster> so it was just a bunch of stones flying around
16:46:53 <oerjan> well duh the rock cracking is how it collapses
16:47:05 <oerjan> um no because it's attracted toward the center
16:47:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, plus it seems to manage ok on earth, Earth isn't a perfect sphere, and earth is definitely large enough
16:47:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's only a bit on the surface though
16:48:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but what would "fuse" them together again? Or maybe that wouldn't be needed
16:48:31 <oerjan> it's the huge pressure deeper inside that cannot be withstood
16:51:22 <oerjan> also it's not necessarily a perfect sphere, because rotation changes the equilibrium form, so earth's bulge at the equator is not an exception to this
16:52:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, about the only plausible "one terrain" planet in Star Wars would be the gas giant with that city in it.... Though the floating city could be disputed of course...
16:52:33 <oerjan> "The amount of leeway afforded the definition could affect the classification of the asteroid Vesta, which appears to have solidified while in hydrostatic equilibrium but to have subsequently been significantly deformed by a large impact."
16:53:04 <oerjan> ^ shows that your moltenness comment can apply to some cases
16:53:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes, i know he meant "must be round", i asked *why* it must be round
16:53:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah. Where it wasn't hydro-whatever after it became solid? ok
16:53:47 <oerjan> AnMaster: or at least after the impact
16:54:04 <oklopol> oerjan: for a planet, it must have gravity strong enough to overcome the strength of its material, iiuc <<< why must it have that strong a gravity?
16:54:20 <oklopol> is it part of the definition
16:54:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, your question is highly nonsensical
16:54:29 <oerjan> oklopol: yes, since 2006
16:54:44 <oerjan> planet and dwarf planet includes that
16:55:07 <oerjan> yes, but it doesn't satisfy the further requirement for non-dwarf
16:55:14 <pikhq> ehird: I do not have sat Internet any more.
16:55:15 <oklopol> oerjan: since 2006 part of the definition, or the question actually made no sense, and you were going with a continuation on AnMaster's "making weird comments since..." joke?
16:55:24 <pikhq> I have campus Internet
16:55:50 <oklopol> i mean why wouldn't that question make sense
16:56:03 <pikhq> What I myself have access to is 100mbps.
16:56:03 <AnMaster> oklopol, why do gravity exist?
16:56:10 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't know what AnMaster was talking about ;D
16:56:18 <pikhq> (I'm limited by Ethernet speeds)
16:56:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, lucky you. I only have wlan on campus
16:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: not all things in space have enough gravity to break their own material
16:56:46 <oklopol> say a toy car you throw in there
16:56:55 <oklopol> its gravity will not crack it.
16:57:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, also 100 mbps ethernet?
16:57:21 <oklopol> i'm asking why a planet must have such a gravity, it's not obvious that's part of the definition, why would it be
16:57:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: isn't a desert planet also plausible given that there is almost no water on it? (which i recall was canonically explained as due to a war disaster btw)
16:57:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, or is your computer too old for that
16:57:43 <oerjan> and ice, given that it is freaking _cold_
16:58:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, and still supports large animals?
16:58:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: floating city isn't that bad, there have been suggestions of doing that on venus
16:58:27 <AnMaster> that is the bit I'm having trouble with
16:59:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh. I guess they will have to ban all sharp objects
16:59:15 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm not going to try explaining away star wars biology :D
16:59:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, city planet is also bothering me
16:59:49 <AnMaster> AND WHY NO RAILS (I know IWC mentioned this a lot)
16:59:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: or airships? they're not _that_ vulnerable if well-designed. although recall extreme winds was a problem on venus
17:00:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: coruscant bothers _everyone_. i thought you read iwc ;D
17:00:56 <AnMaster> can't I complain myself as well?
17:01:15 <oerjan> pikhq: you mean you are finally liberated from the satellites?
17:01:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: The dorms are 80 years old, the Ethernet is 10 years old.
17:01:38 <pikhq> They have yet to rennovate.
17:17:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, how much of that is on the uni network?
17:22:19 <pikhq> It then does several Internet2 hops.
17:23:50 <pikhq> It's a network of higher education institutions that has rather ridiculous speeds.
17:24:14 <pikhq> The backbone is about 100 Gbps.
17:25:49 <pikhq> Sorry, that's the link between each node.
17:27:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, wow you are on internet2 :D
17:31:35 <oklopol> so universities decided to make a new internet now that the old one is mainstream
17:32:00 <AnMaster> oklopol, actually I think it was to test higher speed and such
17:32:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, iirc they managed several gbps in tests
17:32:28 <AnMaster> between mainland US and Hawaii
17:32:35 <oklopol> oh it wasn't just because they thought it'd be cool? i see.
17:34:01 <oklopol> several gbps isn't really that hard to do, just have a lot of wires :P
17:34:42 <oklopol> assuming we don't care about latency and similar uninteresting practicalities
17:36:30 <oklopol> i've been trying to drink my coke for about 7 hours now, but every time i open it, it starts spouting everywhere :<
17:36:37 <oklopol> (it was in the fridge a few days)
17:40:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, also you can easily get tbps burst rate. Just ship a container full of harddrives. Latency: huge. Burst bandwidth: Huge. Sustained bandwidth: Low.
17:41:37 <oklopol> and you can sustain a bandwidth by having them go back and forth all the time!
17:41:53 <oklopol> like millions of them, so there's one burst a second
17:41:57 <AnMaster> oklopol, that would require a lot of containers and people filling them up at the same time
17:42:38 <oklopol> it would be the most awesomest network ever
17:43:14 <oklopol> hmm, actually you trade further latency for getting smaller burst distances
17:43:40 <oklopol> by stacking requests up for say a year, then moving to the other side, starting to empty them in the same order and speed
17:43:53 <oerjan> oklopol: have you tried opening it just a tiny bit to let out the gas?
17:44:05 <oklopol> oerjan: i've done that every 5 minutes for the whole time :P
17:44:23 <oklopol> but the coke starts rising, until it's right under the gap and i need to close it
17:44:34 <oklopol> takes ages for it to drop back
17:44:48 <pikhq> oklopol: It's not so much "a new Internet" as it is "really fast Internet links".
17:44:54 <AnMaster> I mean, is it due to the drink being cold or?
17:45:00 <oerjan> ok next idea find a bucket to open it in ;D
17:45:05 <pikhq> (since the whole thing is Internet-routable)
17:45:08 <oklopol> pikhq: i know, it was just a bad joke on the fact the first internet started as a uni experiment too.
17:46:51 <oerjan> defense experiment afaik
17:47:07 <AnMaster> brb, restarting client for upgrade
17:47:08 <oklopol> the uni network pioneered something
17:47:28 <oklopol> well dunno, doesn't matter
17:47:58 <oklopol> brb, have to look out the window
17:51:40 <oerjan> so you'll never know the wicked things we said about you
17:53:39 * AnMaster wonders why the hell he only gets sound on one ear
17:53:55 * AnMaster looks at confusing mixer controls
17:54:17 <AnMaster> it isn't headphones, they give sound on both ears on the laptop
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17:55:54 <AnMaster> and fuck kmix even more. at least alsamixer showed what was wrong
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18:10:05 <AnMaster> joystick no longer found under 2.6.30 kernels?
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19:16:16 <AnMaster> rudder pedals show up as a joystick (as expected), joystick and throttle doesn't, it shows up as a raw device
19:16:27 <AnMaster> this worked last week and it is broken on both computers
19:16:37 <AnMaster> so what is likely? broken joystick? :(
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21:33:10 <oklopol> does that imply not all of your days are great, ARE YOU SAYING YOUR LIFE SUCKS?
21:33:45 <coppro> but few of my days qualify as being 'great'
21:34:04 <oklopol> mine neither, but uni starts soon \o/
21:34:06 <coppro> my school has a new tech-savy AP; it's going to be awesome
21:34:51 <coppro> he actually asked if I used SQL
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21:37:52 <oklopol> i'm not sure how that's going to affect you
21:41:16 <coppro> oklopol: having a good administration is a good thing. And as the most tech-savy student (probably person) in the school, I stand to be first in line if he reaches out to the student body (actually, there's one other, but he's better at using computers, not running them)
21:42:43 <oklopol> so do you mean like what computer stuff your school should buy
21:43:52 <coppro> no, I mean how computers will be used in the school. The board is afraid of computers; the AP said he wants to push as much as he can
21:45:21 <coppro> and positive interaction with the administration is a good thing... it's amazing how many perks you can get by just asking an AP
21:50:42 * coppro thinks simple smileys like :) and :( should be allowed in formal communication
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22:10:27 <GregorR> I guess that doesn't make sense with "an"
22:12:14 <oerjan> an anal anatic anathema
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23:55:52 <ehird> 08:28:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, that's no moon. Get it?
23:55:53 <ehird> can I kill you over the internet.
23:56:08 <ehird> 08:29:55 <oklopol> is death star the one that looks like a moon
23:57:54 <oklopol> i still don't get the moon joke
23:58:07 <ehird> it wasn't a joke, he was just quoting star wars
23:58:13 <ehird> it's funny, you see, to quote things you know.
00:00:22 <oklopol> if that is the case, then i'm happy.
00:01:12 <oklopol> also why should i know what death star is even if i'd watched star wars, it's impossible to associate names to objects
00:03:07 <ehird> oklopol: associate the ascii code
00:03:25 <ehird> (('d'*256)+'e')*256 etc
00:03:53 <ehird> death star is... 474106791790616748777842
00:04:06 <ehird> in base 36: 257cp4xu24vwgcxe
00:09:22 <oklopol> CUTE LITTLE BOTTIE SWIMMING IN A TREE
00:09:35 <oklopol> computational geometry is sexy
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00:10:55 <ehird> beep i base the beeping robot
00:10:59 <ehird> to beep the beeping beep
00:11:09 <ehird> MizardX: you did WHAT to that goat?
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00:12:34 <ehird> MizardX: you're backwardsly not amused.
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00:12:50 <MizardX> I used the same order as you
00:13:11 <ehird> irb(main):005:0> x="";while i != 0; r = i % 256; i = i / 256; x<<r;end
00:13:19 <ehird> (I originally typed that as poops...)
00:40:24 <ehird> oklopol: beeeeeeeeep
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00:57:15 <ehird> stumpwm seems silly
01:00:53 <ehird> oklopol: unbeep!!!
01:01:12 <ehird> Holy fuck, I feel an insatiable urge to write some Lisp.
01:01:16 <ehird> oklopol: WHy THE BEEP
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01:02:47 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/hk_en/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=computersperipherals&type=monitors&subtype=giantseries&model_cd=LS23MYZAFV/XSH ; 16:10 → 16:9 → this holy crap.
01:03:19 <ehird> I sort of have a reflex where I hit Cmd-T, r, down, enter and I get onto proggit.
01:03:24 <ehird> (Omit the down for non-proggit.)
01:03:28 <ehird> It's sort of hard to shake off.
01:07:50 * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot.
01:10:24 <impomatic> Why not something that combines both?
01:11:10 <ehird> impomatic: Like what? :P
01:12:18 <impomatic> I don't know. Invent something we don't realise we need. Then find a way to create a need for it.
01:12:34 <ehird> Like locking someone in a box and forcin them to use it? :P
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01:27:52 <ehird> "--with-clisp=/usr/local/downstairs/to/the/left/clisp" — stumpwm readme
01:28:01 <ehird> impomatic: lol, you're in the same timezone and i'm wide awake :D
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01:57:22 <ehird> http://imgur.com/zwbOA.png ; if it weren't for that prompt in the top-right, I wouldn't have just become a stumpwm fanboy
01:57:46 <ehird> It's running a goddamn SBCL. Bahahahaha YES.
02:01:26 <ehird> "This will change the prefix key to <Control> + <Meta> + <Hyper> + <Super> + the <z> key. By most standards, a terrible prefix key but it makes a great example."
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02:23:15 <pikhq> ehird: StumpWM is quite good.
02:23:25 <pikhq> The only reason I don't use it is inertia.
02:23:42 <pikhq> (that is, StumpWM is strictly better, but Ratpoison is... Already working.)
02:46:49 * coppro enjoys using quirks in punctuation like question or exclamation marks in the middle of a sentence
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03:49:07 <ehird> pikhq: git clone git://git.savannah.nongnu.org/stumpwm.git && cd stumpwm && autoconf && ./configure && make && sudo make install
03:49:10 <ehird> then "stumpwm" works
03:49:23 <ehird> ofc, "sudo apt-get instal sbcl" first
03:49:29 <ehird> if on a debian-alike
03:49:45 <ehird> (helps to check that the sbcl package isn't threaded; stumpwm is temperamental with a threaded sbcl)
03:50:06 <ehird> Also, xnest is FUCKING AWESOME <3
03:52:46 <ehird> pikhq: oh, you need to install two packages first, like this:
03:52:52 <ehird> (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install)
03:52:59 <ehird> (asdf-install:install 'clx) (asdf-install:install 'cl-ppcre)
03:53:22 <ehird> (skip gpg checks, install personally or system, your choice; if system, do it as root)
03:53:40 <ehird> (I recommend personally, because if you put all your packages local, you can use C-t : to do package management)
03:55:22 <ehird> in fact I wonder why tiling wms do complex arrangements; all they need is one level of vertical split, and one level of horizontal split
03:55:46 <ehird> but yeah, I can try X11 WMs in an OS X window, that's just awesome
03:56:45 <pikhq> The reason is, of course, because X sucks.
03:57:18 <pikhq> (I mean, really: if you're going to do network transparency, why not make it so that a program can detach from an X server and be attached to a different one later?
03:57:21 <ehird> well, also because it's silly
03:57:28 <ehird> whoa, you trapped me in your parens
03:57:51 <coppro> pikhq: that would be epic
03:59:14 <ehird> coppro: my os would let you migrate the window, but not the computation; the computation, but not the window; and both!
03:59:25 <ehird> also, migrate a pony.
04:02:32 <ehird> (pikhq: WITHOUT A KERNEL)
04:03:18 <ehird> I wonder why people use floating mode for bad programs like gimp
04:03:22 <ehird> instead of just Xnesting
04:38:31 <ehird> stumpwm groups seem a bit of a pain
04:38:35 <ehird> if they are what i think they are
04:38:52 <Sgeo> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/a8bc/ want
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04:39:09 <ehird> thinkgeek redesigned omg no
04:39:57 <Sgeo> ..either that's a genuine comment, even though it doesn't sound like one, or you're sarcastically referring to something that I didn't mention in the first place
04:40:03 <ehird> it isn't ugly, but wtf
04:40:07 <ehird> i loved how it looked
04:44:35 <Sgeo> What is tea doing in a survival kit?
04:47:43 <Sgeo> Ugh, I could easily see myself spending a lot of money on ThinkGeek
04:47:57 <ehird> you can only do that if you have a lot of money
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05:19:47 <ehird> http://blog.pastie.org/2009/03/wtf-i-never-said-im-against-testing-i-just-dont-do-it.html ;; ok, i'm not going to use pastie any more; read the comments
05:20:01 <ehird> summary: "Hahahaha. You're stupid if you don't know why he's wrong. It's oooooooooooobvious."
05:20:10 <ehird> "Testing is magical. Hahahahaha. He's wrong."
05:20:40 <ehird> almost everyone doing "agile" is such an idiot
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05:34:16 <ehird> eh, stumpwm is awesome.
05:41:54 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wikipedia_celebrates_750_years_of
05:45:55 <coppro> haha "While Wikipedia's "American Inderpendance" page remains available to all site visitors, administrators have suspended additions and further edits to its content due to vandalism."
05:56:31 <AnMaster> * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot. <-- the window manager I assume will be for your future OS? ;P
05:56:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm currently on an inverse monophasic schedule.
05:57:13 <ehird> One big ol' block of sleep.
05:57:25 <ehird> The "western" sleep pattern, apart from Spain, where they do biphasic (monophasic + siesta).
05:57:31 <ehird> AnMaster: But I do mine in the day.
05:57:33 <AnMaster> well I woke up about an hour ago
05:57:52 <ehird> So I'm up from, like, 7-10pm and asleep at like 1-4pm.
05:57:55 <ehird> It, uhh, works, for now.
05:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, when do school start for you?
05:58:26 <ehird> I'm sure I'll figure something out to get my schedule back on track.
05:58:39 <ehird> My body appears to cope.
05:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, alternatively: So did your mom
05:59:25 <ehird> Oh, that's a good one.
05:59:37 * ehird ponders why emacs' scrollbar is on the left.
05:59:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? konsole's terminal is on the right
06:00:05 <ehird> "traditional" terminals; xterm, rxvt, etc
06:00:25 <AnMaster> my xterm has no scrollbar though, never bothered finding out how to turn it on
06:00:33 <ehird> it doesn't by default
06:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: why use xterm instead of rxvt-unicode?
06:00:48 <ehird> i highly doubt you use any of xterm's 80s features
06:01:32 <ehird> Dear emacs: Yes, I'm on OS X; how astute of you. However, I compiled you FOR GTK. That means I want my X11 meta key, "alt", to be used for that purpose, not the Command key, as you so cleverly inferred based on my platform.
06:01:59 <ehird> I think it's X11 doing that
06:02:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure you can add something to ~/.emacs to change it
06:02:08 <ehird> now i gotsa learn xmodmap :-(
06:02:16 <AnMaster> ehird, xmodmap never worked for me
06:02:22 <ehird> AnMaster: did you hear the news? I'm a fan of a tiling window manager. *gasp*
06:02:25 <AnMaster> I use xkb to do the same thing instead
06:02:41 <ehird> Basically, it's ratpoison, BUT
06:02:46 <ehird> (it's the successor)
06:02:46 <ehird> It's written in Common Lisp
06:02:54 <ehird> You can evaluate expressions inside its lisp
06:02:59 <ehird> You can connect to it with emacs and SLIME
06:03:10 <ehird> You can eat out its insides and replace them while it's running
06:03:18 <ehird> It's like a little lisp machine for X11!
06:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it compare to xmonad?
06:03:29 <ehird> xmonad doesn't do that
06:03:38 <ehird> although it has a plugin thing to do basically that
06:03:50 <ehird> But really, the actual window management is basically identical to ratpoison, except ... more maintained.
06:04:28 <ehird> But god dammit, I can do C-t : (format nil "Hello, ~a!" "world") and get "Hello, world!" back and it's RUNNING IN MY WINDOW MANAGER so I love it.
06:04:53 <ehird> omg Ratpoison changed their logo :(
06:05:00 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ratpoison.png ;; old awesome logo
06:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, remember, it is still X11 beneath it
06:05:04 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Ratpoison_new.png ;; new crappy logo
06:05:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but I'm going to use Linux/X11 anyway
06:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually prefer the new one
06:05:39 <ehird> AnMaster: But the old one was AWESOME!
06:05:44 <AnMaster> the former one looks like the person who made it couldn't draw
06:05:44 <ehird> Especially that missing pixel on the tail
06:05:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It's MS Paint chic
06:06:14 <ehird> The new one is far too antialiased and gradienty and polished for ratpoison anyway :P
06:07:35 <ehird> (setq inhibit-start-screen t) ;; I hate you, rms
06:07:56 <ehird> Grr, that doesn't work
06:09:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I can install Lisp packages from my damn window manager
06:09:50 <ehird> *startup, not start
06:09:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it still runs on a system with a kernel!
06:09:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes it does, and fuck that shit.
06:12:21 <ehird> What does X11 think the alt key is called...?
06:12:30 <ehird> I guess Meta on most systems, but I'm trying to rebind mod2 here...
06:12:33 <ehird> Maybe "Opt" or "Option".
06:14:04 <ehird> xmodmap -dfkjdsfhk gives a list of options, which is nice.
06:14:28 <ehird> (generally works with anything but gnu tools)
06:14:43 <ehird> xmodmap -pke gives an unreasonably long list
06:14:55 <ehird> or, I could just scroll :P
06:15:29 <ehird> Hmm, this sleeping pattern is quite nice
06:15:42 <ehird> I get some sort of instinctual kick out of knowing I'm going to be up all night
06:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: alas, the general vicinity just has metas, shifts and controls
06:16:11 <ehird> along iwth two unlabeled keys
06:16:12 <ehird> HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
06:16:43 <AnMaster> I mean, they are unlabeled for a reason
06:17:14 * ehird is amused that stumpwm comes with a default hotkey that just starts emacs and nothing else
06:17:25 <ehird> It is vitally important you can get to emacs in three keypresses at all times.
06:17:31 <ehird> Two, if you don't count modifiers. :P
06:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want anyone to say their names three times
06:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Keycode 62 Keycode 62 Keycode 62
06:17:51 <ehird> Keycode 72 Keycode 72 Keycode 72
06:17:59 <AnMaster> I meant their real names of course
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06:18:26 <ehird> did that part message get through?
06:18:34 <AnMaster> * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.65.31) has left #esoteric
06:18:34 <ehird> Anyway, they weren't the right keys :P
06:18:41 <ehird> I did /part #esoteric busy being exploded
06:18:51 <ehird> Isn't there an X application that simply prints out every single keypress it gets?
06:18:57 <ehird> as a keycode w/ symbolic name or whatever
06:19:01 <ehird> would seem to be trivial
06:19:32 <AnMaster> so don't move your mouse either
06:19:56 <ehird> heh, when I start xev my whole screen is white with a small black window border, and then a black border of a white square in the top-left
06:20:02 <ehird> methinks it is designed for less fullscreeny WMs
06:20:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, whole window that I'm running xnest with stumpwm in.
06:20:17 <AnMaster> yeah for me it is a small floating window
06:20:26 <AnMaster> ehird, the interesting stuff is printed in the terminal
06:20:26 <ehird> Yes, stumpwm is a *tiling* WM.
06:20:30 <ehird> Although it can do floating windows.
06:20:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I can't see the terminal, can I?
06:20:41 <ehird> unless I split the screen
06:20:45 <ehird> and have it on one side, terminal on the otehr
06:21:11 <ehird> "Mode_switch" is Option.
06:21:37 <ehird> I guess it means "escape"
06:21:44 <ehird> Does X really use escape as meta?
06:21:49 <ehird> I thought that was a terminal relic.
06:22:53 * ehird attempts to figure out how to swap two frames in ratpoison
06:23:23 <AnMaster> KeyPress event, serial 31, synthetic NO, window 0x2800001,
06:23:24 <AnMaster> root 0x1a6, subw 0x0, time 999217048, (314,-142), root:(318,676),
06:23:24 <AnMaster> state 0x0, keycode 9 (keysym 0xff1b, Escape), same_screen YES,
06:24:24 <AnMaster> or, not sure where it says that
06:25:41 <ehird> keycode 66 si option, /me remembers that
06:25:51 <ehird> keycode 63 = Mode_switch
06:25:51 <ehird> keycode 66 = Meta_L
06:25:51 <ehird> add Mod2 = Mode_switch
06:27:15 <ehird> wait, that's the wrong way around
06:27:20 <AnMaster> bbl going to university as soon as I found my umbrella
06:27:23 <ehird> just need to swap the two add lines
06:32:27 <ehird> how do you reset xmodmap
06:36:23 <ehird> http://wikipediavspredator.com/
06:37:10 <ehird> "This could be the most one sided fight since 1973 when Ali faced an eighty-foot tall mechanical Joe Frazier. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I think the entire Earth was destroyed."
06:37:26 <ehird> Poor Frazier never stood a chance.
06:44:00 <ehird> http://imgur.com/LFBWQ.jpg
06:45:47 <ehird> i wonder what happens if it selects predator as the wp article
06:47:24 <ehird> This: http://imgur.com/DXvAL.png
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06:58:32 <ehird> defaults write com.apple.x11 swap_alt_meta -boolean true
06:58:47 <ehird> 'cept it's org.x.x11 nowadays
06:59:39 <ehird> Not that it worked. Sigh.
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07:11:26 <ehird> Wow, X comes with a screensaver.
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08:07:39 <ehird> Perpendicular politics.
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08:36:18 <ehird> "This should not be taken as an argument against same-sex marriage. The model fails to generate the following obvious real-world solution: A, B, and C should all move in together and live in joyous tripartite depravity, and X should jump off a bridge."
08:36:52 <ehird> A placeholder variable! It's about mathematics actually.
08:37:03 <ehird> http://blog.plover.com/math/bipartite-matching.html
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08:50:37 * ehird peeks hopefully at disk utility
08:52:12 <oerjan> disks have no utility. little crystal pyramids are where it's at!
08:53:01 <oerjan> the rumors that people tend to step on them are just evil propaganda!
08:55:55 <ehird> should i install a minimal ubuntu w/ stumpwm yesno
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09:05:49 <ehird> ...people actually use openmoko phones
09:06:34 <oerjan> they do it just to annoy you, ehird
09:06:41 <ehird> i'm just surprised.
09:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: do you exist?
09:07:19 <oerjan> ooh, the plot thickens
09:07:35 <ehird> FUCKING TELEPHONY!
09:08:00 <oerjan> interesting GNU option
09:08:09 <ehird> IT MAKES YOUR TELEPHONY FUCKING GREEN
09:08:30 <ehird> HAHA WOOPS I BROKE IT
09:08:52 <ehird> you're stocking fupid
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09:12:48 <ehird> oerjan: should i doth it
09:13:21 <oerjan> no, that's ungrammatical
09:13:28 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:29 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:31 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:31 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:52 <oerjan> "doth" is not an infinitive
09:13:54 <ehird> oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now.
09:14:05 <ehird> i can use olde english as wrongly as i wisheth
09:14:37 <oerjan> also, that's early modern english </augur>
09:17:04 <ehird> you deftly avoid my command!
09:18:35 <HackEgo> * dexterously: with dexterity; in a dexterous manner; "dextrously he untied the knots" \ * in a deft manner; "Lois deftly removed her scarf" \ [12]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
09:18:44 <ehird> specifically, by pedantry
09:20:10 <oerjan> install the ubuntu, then beat it to death with the stump
09:20:25 <ehird> [09:13] ehird: oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now.
09:20:52 <oerjan> oh _that_ was so improbable i just ignored it.
09:21:08 <oerjan> also, i ignore "should"s on principle
09:21:15 <ehird> oerjan: join agora.
09:21:23 * ehird tweaks his improbability drive and produces an infinite improbability d rive
09:22:08 <ehird> * (evaluate-improbability '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora)))
09:22:17 <ehird> [Number is too large; string representation omitted.]
09:22:39 <ehird> * (defvar event '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora)))
09:22:55 <ehird> * (cause-event :improbability (evaluate-improbability event) :restrain-to event)
09:23:01 <ehird> oerjan: Join Agora.
09:23:17 <ehird> Improbability drive.
09:23:25 <ehird> Newly made infinite, in my case.
09:23:29 <oerjan> i thought it was a lisp variant...
09:23:47 <ehird> No, it's merely very flexible, you know.
09:23:54 <ehird> So you use it with Lisp.
09:24:12 <ehird> oerjan: Anyway, the cosmic variables have been tweaked; it is inevitable that you will join Agora.
09:25:01 <oerjan> but that would mean time is circular, horrible!
09:25:24 <ehird> oerjan: There are more things in nomic and earth than your reason dreams of.
09:25:39 <ehird> You will, in fact, do it as a separate event from every previous instance.
09:25:46 <ehird> Also, soon; I didn't set :time-limit nil.
09:29:06 <ehird> meh, I guess I will write a WM!
09:29:13 <ehird> StumpWM can't do automatic tiling which is getting a little annoying.
09:29:31 <ehird> (Know how I said almost all tiling WMs are dynamic? They aren't. :P)
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09:58:18 <ehird> i have total reverse control over lament.
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09:58:23 <ehird> he will do whatever I tell him to, in the past.
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09:59:08 <ehird> isn't that right lament?
09:59:37 <ehird> say nothing for a while, lament.
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10:00:49 <ehird> I'm telling what lament to do, and he does it in the past.
10:01:17 <ais523> are you cheating by observing what he does, then telling him to do it immediately afterwards?
10:02:03 <ehird> ais523: whatever gave you that idea?!
10:02:07 <ehird> You have an overactive mind.
10:03:57 <ehird> Say nothing for ages, lament.
10:04:06 <ehird> Yep, looks like he obeyed me.
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10:20:34 <ais523> wow, what a pointless spam
10:20:53 <ais523> it said I'd won £500,000, and asked for my name, sex, occupation, and country
10:20:56 <ais523> and didn't say where to send it
10:21:02 <ehird> ais523: in reply, duh
10:21:11 <ais523> you mean those things actually have valid reply addresses?
10:21:22 <ehird> ais523: umm, they don't just ask for your details up front, no
10:21:37 <ehird> reply, it can only waste their time
10:22:08 <ais523> that would only confirm the address as valid
10:22:22 <ais523> I suppose I could just use an invalid from address and send directly from my own computer
10:22:32 <ais523> ehird: I mean, never reply to spam, because it tells them the address you sent from exists
10:22:36 <ais523> and you get a lot more from then on
10:22:44 <ehird> ais523: well, the lottery nigerian types, generally no
10:22:48 <ehird> they're done manually
10:22:56 <ehird> thus, 419 baiting exists
10:23:09 <ehird> it's more the hands-off viagra spam that does that
10:23:25 <ais523> this spam was so short and vague that I can't tell which type it was
10:23:32 <ais523> also, the usual bad grammar
10:23:37 <ais523> "your email address have won..."
10:23:47 <ehird> if you won some money and it wants you to reply, then it's a 419
10:23:53 <ais523> that's an interesting question, actually; /why/ does spam universally have bad grammar?
10:24:07 <ehird> ais523: because the spammers have bad gramamr
10:24:18 <ais523> why would bad grammar be correlated with spamming, though?
10:24:25 <ehird> ais523: third-world economy
10:24:33 <ehird> e.g., a majority of 419s come from Nigeria
10:24:41 <ehird> (thus the origin of their name)
10:25:08 <ais523> yep, 419 is the number of the relevant section in Nigerian law
10:25:26 <ehird> ais523: anyway, a ton of the scammers are actually really rich
10:25:35 <ehird> ais523: perhaps they feign bad grammar to seem more authentically foreign.
10:25:38 <ehird> orrrrrr, they're just dumb.
10:26:00 <ais523> I thought a typical 419 scam worked by trying to arrange a (fake) large transfer of money from one person to another, and offering the scamee a, say, 10% cut of it
10:26:07 <ais523> which of course they never get, as the money never existed in the first place
10:26:21 <ais523> and then just to demand money in the meantime using the traditional scam excuses, such as 'transaction fees'
10:26:52 <ehird> ais523: pretty much
10:27:36 <ais523> whereas the you-have-won scams I'd expect to work less well, as they don't give a plausible reason as to why you're getting the money, or of what the scammer gets out of it
10:28:02 <ehird> you got entered in it by your email company because Segmentation fault
10:28:30 <ehird> (or similar ridiculous excuse; scams prey on the old and stupid... or, well, just the stupid)
10:29:49 <ehird> a: "hey someone screamed and i ignored it"
10:29:49 <ehird> a: "what are the chances it was something terrible happening"
10:29:49 <ehird> b: "two hundred percent"
10:29:49 <ehird> b: "we're in earshot of two terrible things at all times"
10:29:50 <ehird> — http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=285
10:30:09 <ehird> i am pretty sure that is how probability works
10:33:19 <ehird> something about X11 I... actually like
10:33:22 <ehird> ais523: take cover.
10:33:37 <ais523> oh X11 has lots to like, just even more to dislike
10:33:44 <ehird> ais523: nonononono, it doesn't though.
10:33:55 <ehird> i hate pretty much everything about X11 that isn't pretty much vital to having a windowing system.
10:34:02 <ehird> it's very very scary if I like one of it's oddities
10:34:12 <ehird> probability dictates that bad things will happen soon.
10:34:14 <ehird> or at least improbable things.
10:34:15 <ais523> oh, I like the way you can run the server and client separately, I've even done that before but it turned out to be too slow for what we wanted
10:34:21 <ehird> you might get a unicorn before the nuclear holocaust
10:34:55 <ehird> so take cover, or the rabid breed of deadly cat-wasps will eat your brain through your ears before you get your unicorn!
10:37:01 <ehird> ais523: sorry about that black hole that just appeared where you are.
10:37:07 <ehird> this is all my fault. i should never have liked it
10:37:18 <ais523> don't worry, it was rather small and evaporated before it could do any damage
10:37:31 <ehird> ais523: oh, I said that 60 seconds too early
10:37:38 <ehird> ais523: I was talking about the planet-sized one that hasn't come yet
10:37:49 <ais523> if it's planet-sized, it's probably going to affect you as well as me
10:37:58 <ehird> ais523: it is a very clever black hole.
10:39:22 <ehird> was nice knowing you ais523.
10:39:31 <ais523> wow, more developments in SCO vs. Novell
10:40:00 <ehird> ais523: is there something you haven't told us? like about the fact that you're a creepy extra-dimensional being that can use the internet from inside a black hole?
10:40:06 <ehird> that. that might be worth telling us about
10:40:09 <ais523> ehird: actually, the black hole isn't here
10:40:32 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the money that Sun paid SCO is definitely Novell's, that's been affirmed on appeal, and the rest was remanded
10:41:55 <ais523> the remanded issues were because the appeals court thought that they were too complex to be legally decidable by one judge, so they're sending it to a jury trial instead
10:42:27 <ehird> i wonder when someone will ask me what the thing is that i like about X :P
10:42:28 <ais523> oh, and SCO are claiming that as the appeal didn't uphold the verdict, it must be the wrong verdict
10:45:42 <ehird> weep meep gubble pleep!!!!!!!
10:45:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
10:46:10 <ehird> "YEAhim pretty much ''that person''"
10:47:25 <ais523> oh, and Microsoft asked for a fast-track appeal of the Word case
10:47:43 <ais523> and some judges agreed and gave them until the end of the day to make it
10:47:46 <ais523> now, that's fast-track!
10:48:01 <ehird> huh, a 14" laptop that weighs under 2kg
10:48:02 <ais523> i4i have two weeks to respond to it, though
10:48:06 <ehird> maybe it's made of pixies
10:52:22 <ais523> and SCO have new management, it was forced on them by the bankruptcy court
11:00:47 <ehird> gah, xlib and xcb have non-mapping concepts
11:00:55 <ehird> like xlib display, xcb connection, screen
11:02:59 <ehird> i'm beginning to think xlib is nicer than xcb
11:08:48 <ehird> ais523: do you know of a less ugly way of saying if (!(foo = bar)) in C?
11:08:52 <ehird> those extra parens irk me
11:09:04 <ais523> err, that a deliberate assignment-equals?
11:09:10 <ehird> ais523: um, no shit
11:09:13 <ehird> for checking error codes
11:09:19 <ais523> I'd personally write it "if (!((foo = bar)))"
11:09:24 <ais523> although that's the opposite direction to what you want
11:09:34 <ehird> seriously? why on earth?
11:09:37 <ais523> I've got into the habit of double-parenning assignments in an expression to show they're deliberate
11:09:48 <ais523> and it's an idiom that gcc, at least, understands
11:10:04 <ehird> can i just note here that trying to code readable, I-know-this-is-safe-and-what-it-does code in C is really stupid
11:10:18 <ehird> and an exercise in pointlessness
11:10:33 <ais523> well, it's a drop in the ocean, but really, it's more important in C than elsewhere
11:10:40 <ais523> because it gives your program a hope of being readable years later
11:10:47 <ais523> rather than giving up and knowing for certain it won't be
11:10:57 <ais523> I can still read much of my C and C++ code that I wrote ages ago, for instance
11:10:59 <ehird> ais523: I'm one of those crazy people who *is able to distinguish = from ==*
11:11:11 <ehird> Without (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hot molten death cases)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
11:11:21 <ehird> hmm, if (!foo = bar) might work
11:11:29 <ehird> I don't think you can assign to a not-lvalue
11:11:38 <ais523> ehird: oh, they're easy enough to distinguish, just you have to wonder if it's deliberate or not
11:11:50 <ehird> I think that's a strawman
11:11:59 <ais523> ehird: attempting to assign to a non-lvalue is a syntax error, rather than redefining precedence so it makes sense
11:12:10 <ehird> logic where it's unclear whether assignment or comparison is meant is... incredibly convoluted logic that needs fixing
11:12:22 <ehird> ais523: I mean that precedence rules might be arranged so such idiotic things don't happen
11:12:42 <ais523> no, in C operator precedence isn't directional, apart from ( and )
11:13:11 * ehird wonders whether for (;;) or while (1) is more popular
11:13:22 <ais523> there's no mathematical reason why operators can't have different precedences for the two sides, but it rather makes a mess of the textbooks
11:13:31 <ais523> and I use for (;;) as it's less likely to annoy lintalikes
11:15:28 * ais523 watches as ehird uses while(1) for the same reason
11:15:37 <ehird> i definitely considered it.
11:15:47 <ehird> while (1) seems purer
11:16:03 <ehird> since for generally implies you're iterating
11:16:11 <ehird> I'd prefer a more expressive conditional construct that lets you just specify no constraints, of course
11:16:23 <ehird> loop (while x == y) {}
11:16:34 <ais523> or MAGENTA's, for that matter
11:16:37 <ehird> loop (for i=0,i<10,i++; while x == y) {}
11:16:54 <ais523> ehird: you've pretty much invented MAGENTA's looping construct there, just with saner syntax
11:17:02 <ehird> ais523: no, I've invented lisp's LOOP.
11:17:05 <ehird> (just with saner syntax)
11:17:14 <ehird> well, lisp's loop is a looooooot more flexible
11:17:40 <ais523> ehird: I think MAGENTA's [insert appropriate time-travelling verb here] most of the INTERCAL operations in too
11:17:46 <ais523> had? will have? will have had? will had had?
11:18:05 <ehird> "will never have but will have had"
11:18:13 <ehird> (in alternate timeline, will have)
11:18:18 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, has)
11:18:22 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, has had)
11:18:24 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, had)
11:18:29 <ehird> basically it means everything.
11:19:14 <ehird> hmm darn never mind
11:19:42 <ehird> loop (for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++); if (!(i % 2))) printf("%i\n", i);
11:19:44 <ehird> voila, is like a magic
11:19:53 <ehird> (I was doing fizzbuzz but realised that involved branching :P)
11:20:08 <ais523> you can do a fizzbuzz without branching
11:20:19 <ehird> stop saying such pointless things
11:20:23 <ehird> it obviously isn't a loop conditional
11:20:26 * ais523 wonders what a Clue fizzbuzz would look like
11:20:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
11:22:22 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100 when (evenp i) do (print i))
11:22:35 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100 by 2 do (print i))
11:22:42 <ehird> (that's actual common lisp code)
11:23:26 <ehird> stupid, more formattedly:
11:23:27 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100
11:23:37 <ehird> (and yes, it's idiomatic)
11:23:52 <ehird> oklopol: stop beeping
11:24:02 <ehird> oklopol: continue beeping, more cogently
11:24:37 <ehird> ais523: feast your eyes on LOOP's syntax: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_loop.html
11:24:45 <ehird> (way too big to fit on IRC, so don't ask)
11:24:55 <ehird> (also, lightweight page, so no point pastebinning)
11:25:24 <ais523> wow, I'm shocked that anyone would even consider pastebinning a page that was already on the Internet
11:25:40 <ehird> ais523: I was pandering to your crazy anti-webness.
11:25:48 <ehird> You know, the common lisp hyperspec might have viagra ads.
11:26:02 <ehird> Your computer might have to work for upwards of a millisecond to block them, if it's a pentium :P
11:26:13 * ais523 copy-pastes the URL into a browser
11:26:26 <ais523> I haven't clicked on a link for so long, I hadn't realised that it's broken here for some reason...
11:26:52 <ehird> I love how LOOP has built in syntax for introspecting all the variables in a package
11:26:55 <ehird> With options on how to do it
11:27:46 <ehird> oklopol: why are you beeping
11:28:33 <ehird> ais523: do you know a good psych ward.
11:31:14 <ehird> ais523: sort of kinda urgent
11:31:31 <oklopol> beep beep, beep beep beep ->
11:33:12 <oklopol> beep beep, beep beep beep beep; beeeeeeep beep... beep ;)
11:33:30 <ehird> ais523: beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep
11:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: beep, beep: bep?
11:33:55 <ehird> oklopol: beep bep beep?
11:34:58 <ehird> [[The TUNES mailing-list is moving!
11:34:58 <ehird> We've created a Google Group for TUNES:
11:34:58 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/tunes-project/
11:34:59 <ehird> There is also new life for the TUNES Project. We intend to build some
11:34:59 <ehird> actor system based on PLT Scheme, and do fun stuff on top of it, such
11:34:59 <ehird> as a distributed database.]]
11:35:06 <ehird> that... doesn't sound like an OS
11:35:13 <ais523> ehird: when did they write that?
11:35:13 <ehird> otoh a distributed database sounds sexy.
11:37:03 <oklopol> 13:35 Baughn: JohnFlux: Yeah. It's only missing an "april's fools!" somewhere to make me be sure. <<< beep beep xD :P
11:37:20 <oklopol> (13:34 ais523: the first? <<< beep beep beep beep.)
11:37:31 <ehird> oklopol: where's that from
11:37:59 <ehird> well Baughn, I guess #haskell
11:38:50 <ehird> i am unamused oklopol.
11:39:00 <ehird> oklopol. oklopol stop that. tell me. :|
11:44:28 <ehird> oklopol you suck like something that does.
11:45:01 <ehird> oklopol: it is #math isn't it
11:45:05 <ehird> i have determined that it is math.
11:45:21 <ehird> it could be #physics though
11:45:26 <ehird> but i doubt you're in #physics
11:45:57 <ehird> oklopol: that does not make me happy
11:45:59 <ehird> it does not have logs
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11:49:20 <ehird> oklopol i am the very definition of a pol
11:49:24 <ehird> and you are wasting that in your fury
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11:52:21 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
11:55:32 <ehird> Why do people indent the bodies of functions in C etc?
11:55:40 <ehird> It means that pretty much all the code is indented at least one level.
11:55:51 <ais523> to make it easier to find the boundaries between functions
11:56:07 <ehird> That would be when you have a blank line, a declaration, then a line with just a { on it.
11:56:13 <ehird> Pretty hard to miss; besides, can't your editor fold?
11:56:17 -!- Pthing has joined.
11:56:31 <ehird> Also, if you comment your functions at the top it'll be even more noticeable.
11:56:56 <ais523> ehird: I don't see how a folding editor makes it easier to find function boundaries
11:57:10 <ehird> Because... when you fold... all there is is the declarations.
11:57:23 <ais523> ehird: so you'd have to fold, click on the declaration, and unfold again
11:57:33 <ais523> that's not particularly useful when skimming through a long source file
11:57:41 <ehird> I think you're inventing a usecase that doesn't exist
11:57:50 <ais523> ehird: I do it all the time, although in languages other than C
11:57:54 <ehird> ais523: if you skim fast enough, you miss the unindentedl ines
11:58:00 <ais523> and it's really annoying to find that I'm in a different function to what I thought I was
11:58:02 <ehird> if you don't skim fast enough, you can easily see the { on a line of its own
11:58:07 <ehird> and the separating blank line
11:58:13 <ais523> unindented lines are easier to notice because they're touching the margine
11:58:43 <ais523> and you get blank lines all the time, and depending on the indentation conventions used, lone {s as well
11:59:26 <ais523> hmm... Yahoo! mail keeps trying to advertise IE8 at me
11:59:38 <ais523> I clicked the advert to see what would happen, and they said it wasn't available for my platform
11:59:42 <ais523> so, why advertise in the first place?
11:59:50 <ais523> (although they did try to get me to download their toolbar instead)
12:03:47 <ehird> ais523: because microsoft told them to
12:03:51 <ehird> for obvious reasons
12:04:14 <ehird> ais523: anyway, ok, but why a whole tab indent?
12:05:04 <ehird> ok, I think I'm going insane; I can't figure out what style I'm resulting in here :D
12:05:16 <ehird> but i think anything that starts with a space and then goes on to tabs is ... interesting
12:06:34 <ehird> heh, dwm has a macro #define LENGTH(X) (sizeof X / sizeof X[0])
12:06:39 <ehird> that's just evil... I'm stealing it
12:10:23 <ehird> ais523: i apologise arguing for some demented "one-space then tabs" indentation scheme
12:14:03 * ehird embeds the io language in a thing.
12:15:48 <ehird> ais523: I found the worst anarchy golf submission, ever
12:15:49 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Hello+OCaml
12:16:02 <ehird> it is restricted to one language, except not
12:16:04 <ehird> and in the language,
12:16:08 <ehird> it has one obvious solution
12:16:10 <ehird> which is also the shortest
12:16:15 <ehird> you'd have to try harder to make it longer
12:27:54 <ehird> ais523: why do people use exit(1) instead of abort()?
12:28:26 <ais523> ehird: to distinguish their exists from auto-aborts elsewhere
12:28:37 <ais523> it's often possible to tell which was used from outside
12:28:44 <ehird> ais523: auto-abort?
12:28:46 <ais523> e.g. abort works via a signal SIGABRT on many UNIXes
12:28:57 <ais523> and on Windows, it exited with code 3 rather than 1, IIRC
12:29:04 <ehird> "Claiming moderate-density FPGAs clocking at 1.5 GHz,"
12:29:08 <ais523> and, e.g. many C++ compilers will abort() if they hit an unhandled exception
12:29:17 <ais523> well, their generated programs will
12:29:19 <ehird> http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=blogpostPrint&blog_post_id=1040033304
12:31:34 <ehird> thought: I'd like C more if I could put a typename before a variable usage and have it declare
12:31:44 <ehird> (a generalisation of C99's special case for for)
12:31:53 <ehird> while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &ev))
12:32:01 <ehird> while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &XEvent ev))
12:32:08 <ais523> ehird: what scope would the new variable have?
12:32:20 <ehird> ais523: same semantics as when used in for
12:32:20 <ais523> you could in Algol 68, incidentally, but its scoping rules were really complex as a result
12:32:23 <ehird> so, they'd be identical
12:32:33 <ehird> ais523: also, you could then remove declarations themselve
12:32:35 <ais523> and in for, the semantics is 'the head and body of the for loop'
12:32:44 <ais523> those don't generalise to anything but other looping constructs nad if
12:32:44 <ehird> "XEvent ev;" would be what we now say as "XEvent ev; ev;"
12:32:50 <ehird> and would obviously be optimised out
12:33:02 <ehird> well, function/block scope
12:34:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
12:36:34 <ehird> ugh, drawing contexts
12:41:48 <ehird> why doesn't x11 treat button presses as keys?
12:41:51 <ehird> seems like the obvious thing to do
12:44:08 <ehird> #define ITER(x,n) int _##n; typeof(x) n; for (_##n = 0; _##n < ITEMS(x), n = x[_##n]; _##n++)
12:44:09 <ehird> ↑ I can't decide whether this is neato or evil
12:44:51 <ehird> ais523: is ↑ evil?
12:45:42 <ais523> ehird: yes, because C compilers aren't very good with unicode
12:45:54 <ehird> ais523: hur hur hur
12:46:05 <ais523> also, I think that sort of thing's a bad idea
12:46:14 <ais523> especially, the prepending of underscores, that never comes to a good end
12:47:13 <ehird> ais523: I am unlikely to name anything _key
12:47:32 <ais523> you need to remember to only use lowercase variable names, though
12:47:35 <ais523> so as to not end up in compiler namespace
12:47:56 <ehird> ais523: I do that anyway
12:48:03 <ais523> what, use compiler namespace?
12:48:09 <ehird> only use lowercase names
12:48:39 <ehird> ais523: a better criticism is that __typeof__ is gcc only.
12:48:53 <ais523> yes, there are plenty of others too
12:49:09 <ehird> I suppose you think #define ITEMS(x) (sizeof x / sizeof x[0]) is evil too, right? :P
12:52:15 <ehird> well I'm not getting the events I asked for, that's not good
12:52:59 * ehird drops his loops for some magical X-Macros
12:53:07 <ehird> much more appetising!
12:57:57 <ehird> compile time loops, yay
13:14:28 <ehird> i just installed xscreensaver
13:14:41 <ehird> my life, until I die, will henceforth consist of staring at all of these
13:56:25 <AnMaster> I wonder how a user space program can "listen" for new usb devices under linux
13:56:58 <AnMaster> due to wakeups and battery time
13:57:00 <ais523> if you polled slowly enough, it wouldn't be that problematic
13:57:21 <AnMaster> ais523, surely you should be able to subscribe to some sort of event notification
13:57:22 <ais523> put it this way: a typical laptop has tens of wakeups a seocnd
13:57:32 <ais523> whereas, there's no real point in checking more often than about once every five seconds
13:57:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I got mine down to 4-5 per second with wlan off
13:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about embedded devices?
13:58:51 <ais523> even those have several wakeups a second, or sometimes won't even go to sleep
13:59:12 <ais523> besides, why would they want real-time notification of USB plugins, anyway?
13:59:15 <AnMaster> varies a lot, depending upon application I imagine
14:00:20 <AnMaster> anyway I think a laptop should be able to have a lot less than several wakeups per second
14:00:31 <AnMaster> current software and hardware is just badly designed
14:00:50 <AnMaster> (of course it will be more when you type or use the mouse or such, I mean when idle)
14:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also stuff like ntp should be automatically stopped when you aren't connected to a network.
14:02:36 <ais523> this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event
14:02:37 <AnMaster> becuase, yes of course, some wakeups, like those from ntp, are hard to avoid
14:02:42 <ais523> and it uses no CPU until the event happens
14:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, a few things in current hardware do need polling though
14:03:07 <AnMaster> but modern hardware seems to need less
14:03:48 <AnMaster> ais523, for example, some modern cd drives has the ability to notify about media being inserted. Traditionally that hasn't been the case.
14:04:48 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and mdns an such should be avoided. At university my laptop wakes up a LOT due to broadcasts from "auto discover" stuff from other computers on the wlan
14:05:34 * AnMaster wonders what "TLB shootdowns" in powertop is
14:06:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and why on earth does gpg-agent and ssh-agent wake up every 20 seconds...
14:06:23 <ais523> linking to a keyserver, I wonder?
14:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't forward ssh-agent if that is what you mean
14:07:02 <ais523> I mean, downloading new lists of public keys
14:07:06 <AnMaster> and I haven't even used gpg yet this session so there is no data in gpg-agent
14:07:30 <AnMaster> ais523, gpg-agent doesn't do that. It just remembers that you entered the password for the key during a few minutes before auto-locking it again
14:07:56 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean, the other half of it, verifying messages
14:08:08 <ais523> is it linking to public databases of public keys, so that it can tell who the messages are from?
14:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, well it has nothing to verify atm... so unlikely. Plus does verifying really use gpg-agent?
14:09:00 <AnMaster> ssh-agent wakes up about every 20 seconds, gpg-agents about every 10 seconds
14:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, how does one disable updatedb under ubuntu?
14:10:50 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, you could probably remove it from the crontab though
14:11:06 <AnMaster> ais523, the system seems to use anacron, not sure how it works hm
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14:11:16 -!- puzzlet has joined.
14:11:34 -!- ehird1 has joined.
14:12:00 <ehird1> So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:12:15 <ehird1> Surely someone this time. :P
14:12:33 <AnMaster> looking at the file in cron.daily:
14:12:36 <AnMaster> chmod -x /usr/bin/updatedb.mlocate
14:13:14 * AnMaster waits for synergy to paste a extra copy of that while he is typing. Ah there it came... backspace...
14:13:17 <ehird1> Eh? Eh? How about you AnMaster?
14:13:27 <AnMaster> really synergy is nice, but the copy-paste sucks
14:13:32 <ais523> AnMaster: why don't you like updatedb?
14:14:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't use locate a lot. Last time I used it on any system must have been over a year ago
14:14:30 <ais523> I use locate a lot, mostly aiming for libraries
14:14:40 <ehird1> If you're getting rid of everything you don't need on Ubuntu, you're Royally Missing The Point.
14:14:46 <ehird1> ais523: howsabout you help eh eh
14:15:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, it is actually irritating me, system is slower when it is updating the db...
14:15:15 <AnMaster> so I see it as a usability issue
14:15:31 <ehird1> ais523: err, clarify that question
14:15:40 <AnMaster> ehird1, and where did I say I was getting rid of everything that I didn't need?
14:15:41 <ais523> ehird1: as in, how do you think I can help?
14:15:53 <AnMaster> I just disable those that I actually find irritate me :P
14:15:58 <ehird1> 06:02:36 <ais523> this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event
14:15:58 <ehird1> of course, at the software layer
14:16:12 <ehird1> my imac bloops to tell me
14:16:17 <ais523> that you just said ehird
14:16:36 <ais523> it gets pretty silly when I'm logged in as both ais523 and ais523_, via different connections
14:16:43 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
14:16:47 <ehird1> yes, I know why it tells me, I just like it
14:16:56 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
14:16:58 <ehird1> most expensive single-function remote control EVAR
14:17:04 <ehird1> (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:17:13 <ais523> heh, that reminded me to register my other nicks
14:17:15 <ehird1> in case you didn't realise
14:17:26 <ehird1> I think my best course of action is to make an ARM debian chroot
14:17:29 <ais523> ehird1: yes, and my comment was that I'm not sure how I could help
14:17:47 <ehird1> making the custom boot thingy do my bidding into debian
14:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, my point was it shouldn't need to poll stuff at all. Everything should work by "subscribing/listening" to events.
14:18:38 <AnMaster> of course, there would be a few cases where it wouldn't work
14:18:43 <ehird1> AnMaster: that's not how electricity works
14:18:43 <AnMaster> mostly when interfacing hardware
14:18:48 <ehird1> and so that's not how devices work
14:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird1, sure is, devices cause an interrupt which wake up cpu
14:19:11 <AnMaster> which is an event notification
14:19:27 <ehird1> think about, e.g. mice and keyboards
14:19:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, they cause interrupts. Didn't you know?
14:19:41 <ehird1> fundamentally, everything does
14:19:57 <ehird1> AnMaster: You don't know what the word "device" means. Discuss.
14:20:18 <AnMaster> ehird1, well, in this case I guess it means keyboard controller hardware.
14:21:03 <ehird1> Either you don't actually know how keyboards and mice work, or you're ignoring the obvious meaning on opurpose
14:21:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'm talking about interrupts on the level OS has to deal with. Not on the level of wlan card listening at the radio signals
14:21:21 <ehird1> ais523: mainly the help I'd need would be (a) setting up a debian chroot system and
14:21:28 <ehird1> (b) getting the boot up code to agree with that
14:21:48 <ehird1> AnMaster: I'm saying that polling systems are common because that's fundamentally How Shit Works
14:23:23 <ehird1> ais523: oh, and fitting it all in 1gb
14:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird1, depends on what layer you are talking about. I agree with you on the low hardware level yes. But I'm talking about the level that would force cpu to poll. As opposed to specialised circuits on the board waking up the cpu by interrupts when they find something by polling.
14:23:37 <ehird1> although i have a flash card slot for 1gb of temp storage, I don't think the booter will boot into that
14:24:12 <ehird1> AnMaster: humans model higher layers basewd on how the lower layers work
14:24:24 <ehird1> that's why we have the notion of "program", for instance
14:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird1, well see the examples of cd drives I gave above when I talked to ais
14:24:37 <ehird1> it's an internal taskswitching data strujcture, exopsewd as a concept
14:24:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: you're not listening to me
14:24:56 <ehird1> I am not justifying it, ffs
14:25:28 <AnMaster> ehird1, it sounded like you were justifying it to me. But ok then.
14:25:55 <ehird1> Humans tend to model higher layers basewd on the internal details of the lower layers
14:26:15 <ehird1> Examples: "program" - internal task switching structure; "polling" - internal electronics model
14:26:20 <AnMaster> Anyway you can avoid polling in a lot of cases. Certainly you can avoid it when it is different parts of the software that are interacting (instead of hardware and software interacting)
14:26:36 <ehird1> do you delight in pointing out the obvious
14:26:54 <ehird1> i mean i didn't retalise this was #three-year-olds
14:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird1, well. Looking at powertop output it seems it isn't obvious to a lot of people :/
14:27:48 <ehird1> I think if you asked the authors why they did a polling model, they'd almost certainly have a cogent and reasoned justification of it.
14:28:03 <ehird1> Generally, maintainers of core linux infrastructure aren't *idiots*.
14:29:30 <AnMaster> why for example is gnome-panel waking up every other second? And what about update-notifier? update-notifier is the thing that displays notifications in gnome iirc. A good design for it: listen on some socket/dbus thing/whatever, wake up when you get a new message. I mean there is even system calls like select(), poll(), epoll() and so on for it...
14:29:39 <ehird1> So, uhh, ANYONE want to volunteer to help? :P (unless I count ais523's query into the nature of the help as implicit agreement... which is admittedly tempting()
14:29:49 <ehird1> AnMaster: read my last message.
14:30:05 <ehird1> also the one before that.
14:31:07 <ehird1> I'm not likely to click many links on this thing unless they're e.g. pastebins; it is a rather anemic machine and is running the uber-slow Firefox.
14:31:22 <AnMaster> http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#knotify http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#mixer <-- two examples
14:31:29 <ehird1> ...but if you help me get a better linux on this that I can install a webkit browser from, why, I'll click a billion!
14:31:34 <AnMaster> turned out it wasn't a very good reason in several of the cases at least
14:32:16 <ehird1> Hahaha, this isn't the X200!
14:32:20 <ehird1> This is the root netbook thingy.
14:32:40 <ehird1> The X200, which I haven't bought yet, is as sturdy and powerful as any ThinkPad.
14:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, btw, lesswatts looks like a quite light page to me. Can't guarantee that your notebook will handle it of course
14:33:03 <AnMaster> but pastebin.ca is definitely heavier
14:33:17 <ehird1> Notebook is pushing it; one it works on my lap, two it's slower than my phone.
14:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, since it sometimes pastebin.ca bogs down konq, while lesswatts could best be described as snappy
14:33:48 <ehird1> (Well, okay, it has the same RAM as my phone and a slightly faster CPU. But my phone has a bigger disk and does shit a lot quicker, due to the OS being designed for that.)
14:34:12 <ehird1> Mmf. My battery is low. Where is the cord?
14:34:28 <ehird1> (I COULD JUST USE AUGUR'S HUR HUR)
14:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, how long does the battery last
14:34:47 <ehird1> will such jokes ever get old?
14:34:52 <ehird1> AnMaster: like 3hrs on full charge.
14:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes, it is already old
14:35:12 <ehird1> otoh it only weighs 700 grams
14:35:32 <ehird1> ok, power cord is ridiculously short
14:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh btw, power cord of my thinkpad is quite short. well depends on what you compare to. But here I'm comparing to the distance between one of the nice sofas at uni and the closest power socket
14:37:10 <ehird1> Connected it. It is strained a little.
14:37:13 <AnMaster> or rather, the socket on the laptop is on the wrong side for that. Should be on the right side, but is on the left
14:37:32 <ehird1> AnMaster: not a problem for me; it'll charge overnight
14:37:42 <ehird1> who wants to do some chrootin' bzns w/ me
14:37:54 <ehird1> new, unexplored platforms of wonder and delight! LINUX!
14:38:15 <AnMaster> I could help set up gentoo in a chroot
14:38:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: does gentoo support arm
14:38:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, think so. Not 100% sure. *looks*
14:38:42 <ehird1> AnMaster: if yes, does it support not taking 5 weeks to install on a 500mhz arm
14:38:46 <ehird1> ^ that's the important bit
14:39:03 <ehird1> and 500mb to start with
14:39:09 <ehird1> since we're chrooting and the old distro is still there
14:39:26 <AnMaster> /usr/portage/profiles/default/linux/arm/ exists, so yes
14:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, depends on what you wants
14:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird1, and why not cross compile with distcc!
14:39:57 <ehird1> AnMaster: like, ratpoison.
14:40:05 <ehird1> also, because I'm sitting here, dammit'
14:40:13 <AnMaster> ehird1, well ssh to your desktop?
14:40:35 <ehird1> AnMaster: I don't know if ssh is set up on there; anyway, I'd like something in an hour or two
14:40:54 <ehird1> how about ais523 can be the resident debian unexpert
14:41:04 <ehird1> and AnMaster can be the resident ubisurfer bootup unexpert
14:41:11 <ehird1> and I can be the typing keys unexpert
14:41:21 <ehird1> oh, don't forget trackpad moving and clicking!!!
14:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird1, well I'm certainly no debian expert. And I haven't ever seen an ubisurfer
14:41:39 <ehird1> also, almost nobody has
14:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, how does it boot then?
14:41:49 <ehird1> it's an obscure ubercheap product
14:42:05 <ehird1> AnMaster: it's ARM and has no facility to boot via any other media that I know
14:42:18 <ehird1> I know it has a /linuxrc binary, for one
14:42:27 <ehird1> also, booting up is just a splash screen, then linux starts
14:42:36 <AnMaster> you mean you are running from a initramfs?
14:43:03 <ehird1> there's only 128MB to go around
14:43:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, well /linuxrc is for initramfs or initrd, forgot which
14:43:24 <AnMaster> could be some weird setup I guess
14:43:28 <ehird1> ok, there's an /selinux, somehow i doubt that is usewd
14:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, what distro does it run atm?
14:43:38 <ehird1> prolly this thing was debian in a past life
14:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, is there a command called lsb_release (far from all distros have that but worth a try)
14:44:42 <ehird1> what is the shortcut to copy from xterm
14:44:56 <ehird1> AnMaster: this thing uses busybox and runs on 1gb flash, so, no
14:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, select text, paste with middle mouse button elsewhere?
14:45:10 <ehird1> I want the thing whose inverse is ctrl-shift-insert
14:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird1, whops. What browser then?
14:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird1, I *always* copy by selecting and paste with middle mouse button
14:46:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, well I assume a netbook would have a browser. Like firefox, opera or whatever
14:46:27 <AnMaster> possibly this is a pure telnetbook? ;P
14:46:29 <ehird1> Sure, it has the unholy abomination of GPRS-based compressed IE proxy etc etc
14:47:04 <ehird1> But I just want to copy this
14:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird1, lets see how else we could detect debian... /etc/alternatives?
14:47:22 <ehird1> It calls its browser iceweasel and uses its icon
14:47:26 <AnMaster> hm right, but other distros use iceweasel too iirc
14:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird1, pretty sure arch linux did for a while at least
14:47:41 <ehird1> Now tell me the damn copy command :P
14:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird1, I don't know of any way except select and middle mouse button. Sorry
14:48:19 <ehird1> google for me? I would, but uhh, 500mhz arm + firefox
14:48:29 <AnMaster> well you could right click and select copy in konsole. but xterm hm
14:48:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, promise you will do that at least 20000 times for me?
14:48:54 <ehird1> Incidentally, cpu usage is 100% For doing audacious things like looking at pidgin and scrolling in firefox
14:49:17 <ais523> heh, it would be funny if top used 100% CPU
14:49:23 <ais523> it would rather defeat the half point of it
14:49:37 <ehird1> ais523: just subtract 100 from the total, duh
14:50:25 <AnMaster> ehird1, all ways I can find with google refers to middle click
14:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird1, try both left and right at once
14:50:40 <AnMaster> maybe it emulates middle click
14:51:22 <ehird1> um, does this thing come with a text editor I wonder
14:51:26 <ehird1> fuck it, I'll use abiword
14:51:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, I found some page mentioning a patch to make it use the ctrl-c/ctrl-v style copy/paste buffer
14:51:48 <ehird1> reassuring; abiword doesn't start from the command line
14:51:51 <AnMaster> rather than the selection buffer
14:51:59 * ehird1 uses the menu, it works
14:52:03 <ehird1> i shudder to think what the menu item does
14:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird1, is it gnome, or something else?
14:52:54 <ehird1> If you paid attention in class, you'd have noticed that a dfew lines ago, I said it was icewm
14:53:01 <ehird1> Funnily enough, it has not changed in the interim
14:53:12 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh sorry, I was bussy googling for you
14:53:47 <ehird1> (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:54:09 <ehird1> Linux pocketsurfer 2.6.21.5-cfs-v19 #342 Wed Jul 29 17:53:42 EDT 2009 armv5tejl unknown
14:54:30 <ehird1> (It doesn't actually have a hardware clock; I manually set it)
14:54:42 <ehird1> (Supposedly beforehand it was 1st jan 1970)
14:54:46 <AnMaster> completely fair scheduler? But isn't that standard since ages
14:54:50 <ehird1> (This kind of broke certificates.)
14:55:11 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:57:57 <ehird1> GREAT< MY CAPS LOCK IS ON WHETHER I HIT THE KEY OR NOT
14:57:57 <ehird1> DESPITE THE INDICATOR CHANGING oh wait it was just holding down shift, if i press shift it stops heh
14:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird1, you forgot your finger was on shift?
14:58:20 <ehird1> any kind soul want to find a link to some sort of debian arm page?
14:58:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: no, the keyboard forgot it wasn't.
14:59:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, so are you prepared to say sorry for everything you said? ;P
14:59:21 <ehird1> what, everything ever?
14:59:28 <ehird1> including that thing about the goat?
14:59:30 <AnMaster> ehird1, everything negative about me.
14:59:35 <ehird1> That goat was a nasty little bitch
14:59:44 <ehird1> AnMaster: The goat was a previous life of you, I'm sure
14:59:52 * AnMaster closes the debian arm port page
15:00:39 <ehird1> AnMaster: Why were you such a dick as a goat, just answer me that
15:01:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'm afraid you confused me with someone else there.
15:01:18 <ehird1> does that count as nwegative
15:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird1, that goat was clearly my evil twin
15:01:52 <AnMaster> well, I never been a goat as far as I know so can't answer that
15:02:04 <AnMaster> <ehird1> does that count as nwegative <-- no idea about "nwegative"
15:02:42 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
15:02:44 <ehird1> jsndjkasndjksndkjasndkjnasdknaskjdnjkndkasnjknfjksdnf
15:03:25 <ehird1> could i just kinda have a link plz :P
15:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird1, plus even on that slow computer, googling would have been faster.
15:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, but seriously, you seem to be so rude most of the time I see no reason to help you.
15:05:06 <ehird1> you're just trying to drag this on :P
15:05:09 <AnMaster> not right now indeed, when you want help, but yesterday for example, and quite a few times before then
15:05:29 <ehird1> btw, I'm not rude, I'm honest.
15:06:14 <ehird1> Oh, snayou know what I bet it's debian.org/ports/arm
15:06:18 <ehird1> http://debian.org/ports/arm
15:06:27 <ehird1> i dont have clickable urls
15:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, no idea, closed browser several minutes ago. but it was on debian.org iirc
15:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, how long would it take to type that url into the browser then? *shrug*
15:07:03 <ehird1> also why are you helping
15:07:15 <ehird1> AnMaster: i have copy paste tho
15:07:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, helping? You mean saying on debian.org? Well I said I had the official page for the port open, about half a screen above...
15:08:05 <ehird1> ugh, that has no release links
15:08:07 <AnMaster> so, where else than debian.org?
15:08:18 <ehird1> maybe there's a #debian-arm
15:08:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, you seem to be a slow typer on that netbook as well...
15:08:43 <ehird1> (15:07:23) You have been kicked by ChanServ: (Invite only channel)
15:08:52 <ehird1> AnMaster: keyboard is woefully small, and keys are oddly placed.
15:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, debian is on oftc iirc?
15:09:14 <AnMaster> moved from freenode some year ago or so
15:09:18 <ehird1> #debian exists here, arm might be skdjfhskfhksjfsdkjfskdjsdkfsf i'll just do it myself
15:09:53 <AnMaster> so well yeah it would explain things
15:10:26 <ehird1> "Setting up a Debian chroot under Red Hat"
15:11:20 <ehird1> debootstrap is x86 only i bet
15:13:19 <ehird1> hmm, debootstrap needs binutils? prolly just for ar
15:14:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, what cpu does iphone use?
15:14:18 <ehird1> architecture all? guess its a shell script
15:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh? I thought you said busybox
15:18:44 <ehird1> grrr, it either wants perl or a c file compiled
15:18:49 <ehird1> maybe debian has a package
15:22:36 <ehird1> i have make but not gcc
15:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, what about groff or troff?
15:24:58 * ehird1 reads the man page with vi
15:29:51 <ehird1> who wants to help me rewrite some perl in shell :P
15:30:19 <ais523> ehird1: perl - << EOF?
15:30:32 <ehird1> ais523: on a machine that does not have perl.
15:31:14 <ehird1> anyone on a system with easy cross compilers?
15:31:29 <ehird1> I gots myself a single source file here that could use some static compilation :P
15:31:30 <ais523> ehird1: if something's set up properly with auto-tools, I have an ARM toolchain here
15:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, gentoo, if you are prepared to wait while it builds
15:31:42 <ais523> that has built C-INTERCAL without issue
15:31:49 <ehird1> AnMaster: ais523 beat you with INSTANTLY
15:32:07 <AnMaster> ehird1, because he had one ready
15:32:18 <AnMaster> which I wouldn't have done anyway
15:32:30 <ehird1> https://sources.bit.nl/viewvc.cgi/bit-pxe/linux/debootstrap/pkgdetails.c?view=log should be basically recent enough, ais523
15:32:42 <ehird1> a static compiled ARM ELF of that should work, if it works on ubuntu
15:32:46 <ehird1> since i have debian here
15:32:54 <ehird1> thanks if you do do it
15:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, first write Makefile.am and configure.ac!
15:33:08 <ais523> first, I have to remember where the toolchain actually is
15:33:14 <ais523> it's something like 8 levels deep in my directory structure
15:33:48 <ais523> what's the gcc option for static compile?
15:35:29 <ais523> ehird1: it compiled, I think
15:35:47 <ais523> a.out: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
15:36:19 <ais523> and here it is: http://filebin.ca/uvwnk/a.out
15:37:19 <ais523> doesn't get much smaller if I strip it
15:37:26 <ais523> also, I suspect it's linked against uclibc
15:37:34 <ais523> not that that really matters, probably
15:37:57 <ais523> but it's a lot larger than I expected
15:38:42 <ehird1> 3.5mb wouldn't be; i only have about 500 of those things spare
15:39:51 <ehird1> now how to get that url into oh ill just we bbrowse it
15:42:31 <ehird1> fun fact; there's an ethernet port but it does nothing
15:42:37 <ehird1> I'm not entirely sure it has ethernet drivers
15:42:55 <ehird1> ais523: your binary runs1
15:43:09 <ais523> ehird1: well, I know it's capable of working
15:43:17 <ais523> but the buildchain for /that/ buildchain was a rather tenuous one
15:43:35 <ais523> it consisted of makefiles which downloaded things, including other makefiles, with wget
15:43:39 <ais523> and the dependencies were all wrong
15:43:52 <ehird1> it's not like all ARMs are teh same
15:44:04 <ais523> I had a little shellscript that invoked the relevant bits in the right order, deleting things if necessary
15:44:06 <ehird1> woot, debootstrap --help works
15:44:13 <ais523> also, that gcc was built as 'arm-linux-gcc'
15:44:20 <ais523> without specifying what version of arm
15:44:25 <ais523> (or of linux fwiw, but that's less important)
15:44:48 <ais523> so my guess is, it's designed to port to as many arms as possible
15:45:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:45:51 <ais523> maybe I should send you an ARM build of C-INTERCAL, to see if it works there?
15:47:09 <ehird1> how about after I've replaced this carp with debian?
15:48:23 <ehird1> ais523: and then I can just sudo apt-get install intercal ;-)
15:48:42 <ais523> that wouldn't be cross-compiled, though
15:48:47 <ais523> it'd have been built on native ARM
15:49:16 <ehird1> anyway, it's working out dependencies at the moment
15:49:23 <ehird1> so this seems quite working
15:49:27 <ehird1> which is a pleasent surprising
15:50:40 <ais523> is this the incredulous feeling you have when you do something complicated involving build processes and it just works first time?
15:51:01 <ehird1> yes, although it hasn't actually done anything platform-specific yet
15:51:13 <ehird1> aprat from download the arm packages
15:52:34 <ehird1> "Jesus fucking Christ with this arcane academic toy language bullshit" //- someone tell all the embedded folk to sotp using forth
15:52:38 <ehird1> it's a toy language turns out
15:52:48 <ehird1> woot, it''s downlaoding packagis
15:53:55 <ehird1> yes, forth's is (a) being a toy language, (b) being in a shit ton of embedded devices and (c) being usewd in nasa flight control software
15:54:06 <ehird1> but mainly (a), if you go by reddit commentors
15:54:24 <ais523> I suppose some langs are better toy langs than others, as well as being practical
15:54:46 <ehird1> it's obvious that toy language was meant as a childish insult in conte
15:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, did you intentionally misunderstand what ehird1 said there? XD
15:55:53 <ais523> no, I'm just trying to think about the problem in an unusual way
15:56:07 <ais523> although, it would be more fun if NASA wrote their flight control software in INTERCAL
15:56:24 <ehird1> that'd be a good way to cut government spending
15:56:41 <ehird1> first off, a lot more failures -> less launches
15:56:49 <ehird1> secondly, every astronaut chickening out -> extra $$$
15:56:57 <ehird1> then, just slash the excess budget!
15:57:16 <ehird1> et voila! now we can afford the stimulus. :P
15:58:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: how's your rock this time olf year
15:58:40 <ehird1> might wanna uh, crawl out?
15:58:45 <AnMaster> ehird1, err. is that innuendo?
15:59:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
15:59:20 <ehird1> yes, AnMaster. economic innuendo.
15:59:39 <ehird1> after all we can't go around with excess innuenSHOT
15:59:50 <ehird1> AnMaster: the one you live under
16:00:19 <ehird1> it's extracting allt he packages, neato
16:01:01 <ehird1> you live under a rock.
16:01:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, well, I guess you could say that when the moon is right above...
16:02:04 <ehird1> does chroot inherit net connections?
16:02:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, your question doesn't make sense.
16:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, connections are connected to the programs that opened the sockets
16:02:52 <ehird1> answer the one i should have asked, then
16:03:00 <AnMaster> ehird1, do you mean network settings?
16:03:01 <ehird1> that is not what a net connection means
16:03:09 <AnMaster> copy resolve.conf if you want dns to work in the chroot
16:03:35 <ais523> ehird1: if you meen a pre-existing connection, I think you can pass one into a chroot if it's on an open descriptor when the chroot is created
16:03:44 <ais523> although it won't have a sensible filename, just a number
16:03:58 <ehird1> i wonder how easy it'll be to merge the chroot with the vital stuff from the existing system
16:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, but that is not "inherit"
16:04:09 <ehird1> to produce a hideous chimera of debian and fucked up debian
16:04:24 <AnMaster> ais523, since chroot() doesn't cause fork
16:05:01 <ehird1> installing core packages, woop woop
16:05:06 <ehird1> it's all working and shiznit
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16:10:07 <ehird1> AnMaster: you like eizo displays right
16:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, hm? I don't bother about which brand it is. Just if the monitor is good or not
16:11:14 <AnMaster> ehird1, and seriously, no current monitor gets even close to the results you can get by printing. Sad but true
16:11:14 <ehird1> i sseem to remember you saying that they were the officially defined standard post for the others
16:11:17 <ehird1> like, in some standard
16:11:44 <ehird1> AnMaster: I dunno man, H-IPS with that filter thing and automatic colour calibration must come pretty damn close
16:12:10 <AnMaster> and of course, manual engraving and other simular technologies can get a DPI which is way way higher than anything a printer can manage
16:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird1, it isn't only colours and such
16:12:31 <ehird1> yeah, dpi is a problem
16:12:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, colours is a worse problem though
16:12:48 <ehird1> eizo has like a 130dpi display iirc, which is depressingly close to the top
16:12:51 <ehird1> some laptops have 150dpi
16:12:58 <ehird1> ofc those ibm ones have lots of dpi
16:13:09 <ehird1> but perhaps not quite as good ips
16:13:21 <ehird1> a 600dpi display would be bliss
16:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, also what I think I said was that NEC monitors are very often used for reference monitors in tests. Guess you could say that is a de facto standard
16:13:47 <ehird1> ...i type from an uber-cheap shitty matte TN 7" display with god0awful colours :)
16:13:56 <ehird1> AnMaster: no, I definitely read eizo
16:14:03 <ehird1> they make the standard or something
16:14:16 <AnMaster> ehird1, iirc eizo make some very good ones too. But I don't think I said that about standard
16:14:22 <ehird1> thought you said it, oh well
16:14:35 <ehird1> the top eizo ones are like $6,000
16:14:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, I want a monitor able to produce any pantone colour. Of course that won't ever be possible
16:14:46 <AnMaster> since that includes glossy/matte and such
16:14:56 <ehird1> Do you really want to commit to "ever"
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16:15:11 <ehird1> I can imagine a display that can do both glossy and matte
16:15:33 <ehird1> Sure, why not, just come up with a metal display
16:15:35 <AnMaster> ehird1, like a shiny golden surface that actually looks like gold
16:15:37 <ehird1> and add it as another layer
16:15:50 <ehird1> Nothing ridiculously sci-fi, I imagine
16:16:29 <ehird1> AnMaster: consider that I think it's possible to make a computer where you can create a glass table, touch it, feel it, and feel it cold
16:16:33 <AnMaster> ehird1, and the range. utter black and intense white. Next to each other. With no bleed over
16:16:33 <ehird1> (through peltier and other stuff)
16:16:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: uhh, you can do that in print?
16:16:54 <AnMaster> not like looking directly into the sun, that would be, err useless
16:16:56 <ehird1> I wanna see this magical glowing whiteness
16:17:16 <ehird1> isn't pantone for print
16:17:18 <AnMaster> I was talking about my wishes for monitors in general.
16:17:32 <ehird1> I think monitors, long-term, suck
16:17:35 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes indeed. But pantone is one item in the list. Good light levels is another
16:17:42 <ehird1> by the itme we can do the stuf you want, we should be using VR
16:17:53 <ehird1> there's at hign recently, put something on your lips
16:18:00 <ehird1> it sends signals to youir brain
16:18:09 <ehird1> experimental thing like for people who are blind
16:18:12 <ehird1> read it on engadget recently
16:18:19 <ehird1> shit like that has way morpotential than displays
16:18:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, anyway, you can't just produce some colours on monitors. I want a very wide gamut monitor, with enough bits per pixel to make it usable for small gamuts too (otherwise you loose details)
16:18:43 <ais523> ehird1: it's about 5x6 pixels, but apparently that was enough to let blind people see again (albeit poorly)
16:18:44 <AnMaster> so maybe 32 bits per channel per pixel?
16:19:00 <AnMaster> but definitely 16 bits per pixel at least
16:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't even tell 16bpp from 24bpp
16:19:15 <ais523> that's bits per pixel, not bits per channel per pixel
16:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523, not with a small gamut duh
16:19:27 <AnMaster> I meant, for wide gamut monitors
16:19:36 <ais523> and if you're going for large gamuts, go for all the dimensions of colour
16:19:41 <AnMaster> like, Adobe RGB Wide Gamut or something
16:19:45 <ais523> as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess
16:19:58 <ais523> so you can make part of the screen mirrored, and another half scatter ambient red light but glow blue
16:20:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess <-- mentioned above. Search for "pantone"
16:21:11 <ais523> yep, pantone only does about 2 or 3 channels, you need about 10 to properly describe colour to the precision with which humans see it
16:21:16 <ais523> and more still if going for other sorts of vision
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16:35:49 <ehird1> it installed the base system
16:37:10 <ehird1> NO NEED TO COPY resolv.conf theya re the same
16:38:47 <ais523> but I don't actually really know what it means
16:38:56 <ais523> seems to be a common celebration, though
16:38:57 <ehird1> ais523: "yay" but stronger
16:39:09 <ehird1> it originally came from "wow, loot" or something in some game apparently
16:39:22 <ais523> oh, there are lots of conflicting stories of where it comes from
16:39:52 <oklopol> we owned the other team is what i've heard
16:40:30 <Deewiant> "Whoot" was originally more common, I think, so I doubt that one
16:40:33 <ehird1> the other team is the team of not having debian work
16:42:02 <Deewiant> Whenever I first started hearing wh?(oo|00)t
16:42:29 <ehird1> i'm amazed how simple that wAS
16:42:32 <oklopol> okay that was ages before i even had good internets
16:43:01 <ehird1> "apt-get update" works
16:43:13 <oklopol> we have owned the other team
16:43:16 <ehird1> basically i just need to make sure the hardware will work, then drop this into the above system
16:43:25 <ehird1> keeping the bootup code etc
16:43:26 <oklopol> that would be pretty catchy
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16:43:52 <ehird1> we're doing stuff with arm
16:43:57 <ehird1> oklopol: i was jus tabout to say XD
16:44:06 <ehird1> right after greg joined
16:44:11 <ehird1> oklopol: why did you start
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16:44:39 <ehird1> caveat: the internet in the debian is slow for some reason
16:44:41 <oklopol> i was reading computational geometry, and i suddenly felt like i was a wave
16:45:27 <oklopol> i think i almost fell asleep, tend to get all kindsa weird feelings then
16:45:33 <ehird1> gawd so slow, is it the us mirror maybe
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16:47:49 <ehird1> GregorR-L: I've installed a debian chroot inside a mangled debian that runs X11 as root
16:47:54 <ehird1> and it worked first time
16:47:58 <ehird1> (this is on ARM, naturally)
16:48:13 <GregorR-L> I don't see why it wouldn't *shrugs*
16:48:41 <ehird1> GregorR-L: you know how it is with el cheapo devices running funky platforms
16:48:58 <ehird1> anyway, next I'll extract the system replacing its parent
16:49:01 <ehird1> but keeping the bootup code
16:49:25 <ehird1> ais523: could you look up the address of the debian mirrorservice mirror? sorry... firefoxv is just painful here
16:49:26 <GregorR-L> Then just keep doing that over and over again.
16:49:36 <ehird1> and kinda chicken-and-egg to install w3m
16:49:45 <ehird1> GregorR-L: Xzibit? Is that you?
16:49:56 <GregorR-L> ..........................????????????????
16:50:22 <GregorR-L> ..........................????????????????
16:50:32 <ais523> http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/
16:50:35 <ehird1> GregorR-L: crawl out frolm under that rock
16:50:44 <ais523> but that seems to be a page about it
16:50:54 <ais523> I can't find the actual entry to give to apt
16:51:19 <ais523> ah, http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/sources.list.sample.ukms.txt has the required sources.list entries
16:51:21 <ehird1> presumably a subdomain of mirroresrcviceo.org
16:51:31 <ehird1> ais523: could you copy theo ne for lenny main?
16:52:16 <ais523> "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/ sarge main non-free contrib" is the example, I suspect replacing sarge with lenny works
16:52:26 <ais523> that doesn't include the volatile or security repos, though
16:52:53 <ais523> it seems people have forgotten what the www is for
16:53:02 <ehird1> for machines,a ctually
16:53:06 <ehird1> it makes sense to have one machine for web and ftp
16:53:12 <ehird1> but really, it's all pointless nowadays
16:53:12 <ais523> "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/security.debian.org/ sarge/updates main contrib non-free" should probably also be in the sources.list
16:53:16 <ais523> to get security updates
16:53:21 <ehird1> ais523: all debootstrap does is main
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16:53:41 <ais523> volatile's for stuff like virus scanners, you probably don't care about it
16:54:14 <ais523> yes, it's things that are updated every few days
16:54:30 <ais523> isn't clamav updated multiple times a day?
16:54:46 <ehird1> i wonder why the net in the chroot is so slow
16:54:56 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
16:55:55 <ehird1> aaaaaand its uber slow again
16:56:16 <ehird1> but the red network thingy in my bottom right is maxed out
16:56:20 <ehird1> so the host is having the same problemn
16:57:10 <ehird1> methinks installign sudo and making a user for myself is the best next step
16:57:23 <AnMaster> heh... I clicked "log out", got "You have been automatically logged out due to inactivity, please log in again to proceed" XD
16:57:41 <ehird1> bet they didn't think of that race condition
16:58:04 <ehird1> just goes to show why software is utterly impossible to make :)
16:58:20 <ais523> just make log out succeed even if not logged in
16:58:22 <AnMaster> ehird1, so why is everyone trying so hard? Would it be better to give up?
16:58:47 <ehird1> no, computers have great potential.
16:59:08 <ehird1> we just need to give up our rabid devotion to backwards compatibility
16:59:22 <ehird1> like 80% of the work in computing caters to the 20% of dinosaurs
16:59:24 <AnMaster> what is interesting is that it special-cased "logged out due to inactivity" from other "not logged in" status
17:00:10 <ehird1> the fact thta computing is largely driven - entirely in fact - by what makes the most money from the uninformed consumer doesn't help
17:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird1, you could reduce that to maybe 50/50 by simply dropping x86
17:00:34 <ehird1> how come the percentage of dinosaurs grew
17:00:38 <ehird1> that makes no sense :P
17:00:38 <ais523> not supporting x86 gives a good excuse to break backwards compat
17:00:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, err I thought it was 80% dinos
17:00:48 <ais523> but I can't think of any other good reason for it
17:01:33 <ehird1> but really, a high-level, single-namespace (no memory/disk distinction), garbage collecting, bignum-supporting, graph-reducing CPU...
17:01:47 <ehird1> i would sacrifice up to seventeen babies.
17:01:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, would not be popular with the java programmers. Or most other either
17:02:07 <ehird1> AnMaster: nothing stopping me making it
17:02:08 <ais523> hmm... the logical next step up would be a really good JITting compiler in hardware, inside the CPU
17:02:11 <AnMaster> but not going to happen soon in any case
17:02:13 <ehird1> I can do most of that in FPGAs
17:02:22 <ehird1> ais523: HIGH-LEVEL chip
17:02:37 <ehird1> the compiler should be doing parsing, structural optimisations
17:02:44 <ehird1> and then writing thato ut almost directly as machine code
17:02:48 <ais523> you'd feed in something like LLVM bytecode
17:03:04 <ehird1> you'd feed in something like a simplified version of the language you write apps in
17:03:21 <ehird1> the bridge between the low-level swamp of the cpu and the high-level bliss is one we made up
17:03:26 <ais523> that looks sort-of like decompiled java?
17:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird1, what about if you want to use another language. Say, if you are a scientist developing a new, and even better, language
17:03:47 <ais523> much the same but with all the loops replaced with while loops
17:03:56 <AnMaster> ehird1, it sounds that would run rather slow then?
17:04:01 <ehird1> ais523: high level loops could make for interesting branch prediction
17:04:10 <ehird1> AnMaster: a few things:
17:04:30 <AnMaster> if it is tied so directly to a specific high level representation
17:04:32 <ehird1> one, I don't buy into the distinction between OS and language, and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic
17:04:46 <ehird1> this stems quite a bit from the fact that I know what can be done if you unify them
17:04:52 <AnMaster> ehird1, so you basically suggest vendor lockin
17:04:55 <ehird1> because I don't think programming should be a distinct activity from using
17:04:55 <ais523> ehird1: doesn't that imply there's no difference between hardware and language?
17:05:05 <ehird1> that's not a reasoned arughment
17:05:09 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes that is the extrapolation of what you suggested
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17:05:22 <ehird1> AnMaster: your kernel hsa all sorts of things built into it
17:05:29 <ehird1> you don't consider them vendor lockin
17:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes, but I can run another OS easily on the machine
17:05:40 <AnMaster> "and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic"
17:05:47 <oerjan> oklopol: norwegian communist party
17:05:50 <AnMaster> sounds like you suggest that shouldn't be possible
17:06:25 <ehird1> AnMaster: you know, you have never once adopted a position on computers other than the conservative, I}-think-things-aret-good-how-they-are-no-different-distinctions-and-boundaries-for-me, and you continually use strawman arguments to get to these
17:06:32 <ehird1> I am done with talking to you about them.
17:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird1, um. I'm pretty sure I wanted to drop x86 for example. And go for something better
17:06:52 <ais523> my attitude is to let ehird do all the groundbreaking research while I work with what's possible right now
17:07:03 <ehird1> AnMaster: that's not any sort of revolutionary attitude
17:07:10 <ehird1> oh, I'd like a slightly better instruction set
17:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird1, can you explain how it is NOT vendor lockin, based on what you said above
17:07:13 <ehird1> you THINK you want a revolution
17:07:15 <ehird1> butw hen it comes to it
17:07:20 <ehird1> you simply deny all changes
17:07:35 <ehird1> ais523: the instruction set would map pretty directly to the language
17:07:45 <ehird1> if you parse it, do some structural optimisations, and simplify it a bit
17:07:54 <AnMaster> translation: ehird realised the flaw I pointed out exists, and won't admit it.
17:07:58 <ehird1> it'd be perfectly possible to read through the machine code ofa high level application
17:08:12 <ehird1> AnMaster: you can continue having fun with strawmen all you like, I don't care whaty ou think
17:08:18 <ehird1> but if you think I havent considered the issues
17:08:22 <ehird1> you're laughably ignorant
17:08:39 <ehird1> i have, upon reasoned ponderance, decided the issues are not real if viewed with a perspective that produces superirop results
17:08:50 <AnMaster> ehird1, yet you refuse to explain them. Trying to avoid the issues. Looks suspicious...
17:08:56 <ehird1> and, I will say this only one more itme,
17:09:23 <ehird1> you have not once accepted an arguhment. you constantly toe the party line of hardware and software, conservative, while claiming to want something better: you don't wabnt something fundamentally better
17:09:28 <ehird1> just somethign better in the same ballpark
17:09:37 <ehird1> no amount of hours of arguing will ever change this and i know this from a hurge sample size
17:09:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, nice strawman yourself :P
17:09:43 <ehird1> I am not interested in this any more
17:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird1, indeed a very nice straw man you ended with
17:10:10 <AnMaster> well done. You must feel so proud.
17:10:41 <ehird1> i'd ignore AnMaster, but the change wouldn't stick on my other client
17:11:00 <ehird1> so I'll just mention it instead, to annoy him
17:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'd ignore you. But that would breal 1/3 of the convos in here
17:12:36 <oerjan> it's just we're in the middle of the election campaign here
17:12:51 <ais523> oerjan: what will you be voting on?
17:12:54 <oerjan> although _that_ party stands no chance of getting any seats
17:13:42 <AnMaster> <oklopol> oerjan: you part of it? <-- s/t/ty/
17:13:51 <oklopol> oerjan: will you vote for me?
17:13:53 <oerjan> but the _other_ communist party might get a couple
17:14:08 <ehird1> the security updates for lenny
17:14:08 <ais523> what's the election about, anyway?
17:14:12 <ehird1> don't seem to be complete
17:14:14 <ehird1> no contri]b and non-free
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17:14:22 <ehird1> there aren't any contri]b and nonfrees security updates are there>?
17:14:26 <oerjan> and the third party which any _american_ would call communist, is what i voted for ;D
17:14:28 <ehird1> I don't think there are
17:14:29 <ais523> ehird1: how can I tell?
17:14:37 <ehird1> ais523: look at the US mirror?
17:15:33 <ais523> what would it show me?
17:15:36 <ais523> I don't know where to look
17:15:43 <ehird1> ais523: well, security.debian.org, I guess
17:15:46 <oerjan> ais523: i voted in advance, at the library
17:16:13 <GregorR-L> oerjan: So, socialist? Or just "fairly liberal"?
17:16:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: "Rødt" might get a couple of seats
17:16:20 * ais523 wonders if the leftmost mainstream american party is less left than the rightmost mainstream party in say, the UK or Norway
17:16:23 <AnMaster> <ehird1> ond ebian.org <ehird1> hm <ehird1> maybe i typod <-- yeah, due to quantum you can never be sure ;
17:16:39 <oerjan> but not revolutionary any longer
17:16:48 <GregorR-L> So you're just making fun of Americans' inability to distinguish socialism from communism then :P
17:17:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe, it's Sosialistisk Venstreparti
17:17:16 <ehird1> ais523: the UK is pretty much to the right of any scandinavian country
17:17:23 <ehird1> apart from the lib dems
17:17:31 <oerjan> no, that would be the labor party
17:17:33 <ehird1> who are, like, actually sane
17:17:39 <ais523> ehird1: all the UK parties are all over the place
17:17:43 <ais523> it's hard to tell who is to the left or right of who
17:17:45 <ehird1> and would place center in scandinavia, i think
17:17:53 <ehird1> ais523: well, labour is arguably more right-wing than conservative atm
17:17:56 <ehird1> at least on social issues
17:17:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: not that some americans would not call that communist as well
17:18:05 <GregorR-L> You people and your more-than-two-party politics :P
17:18:07 <ais523> hmm... I've been voting conservative at every election
17:18:17 <ais523> I'm not sure whether I'd prefer the conservatives or lib dems
17:18:18 <oerjan> (they were, 80 years ago or so)
17:18:18 <ehird1> i'd vote lib dem if i could
17:18:31 <ais523> but in my constituency, the libs have no chance of winning, and I know all about tactical voting
17:18:42 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, lets see... 7 parties in the Swedish parliament
17:18:51 <ais523> (I voted Green in the EU elections, though; yay for proportional representation)
17:18:52 <oerjan> ais523: in norway, the conservative side is a shambles now
17:19:00 <ehird1> I had a dream about a bizarre sort of ... school class, writing in a US presidential vote
17:19:06 <ehird1> it was sort of like a cavern thing ... anyway,
17:19:13 <ais523> who was your write-in vote?
17:19:16 <ehird1> i wrote in dennis kucinich, with joe biden as the vp for some reason
17:19:23 <ehird1> (we got to choose both, I guess)
17:19:31 <ais523> oerjan: in the UK, Labour are so unpopular atm that people will vote for more or less anyone to replace them
17:19:47 <ehird1> ais523: OR WILL THEY WHEN THE CCTV IS WATCHING THEM
17:19:57 <ais523> mostly previously strong labour people are voting for the Liberal Democrats, as they can't stand the thought of voting Conservative
17:20:09 <ehird1> conservatives are still right-wing socially
17:20:19 <ehird1> they're just not _completely_ off the deep end yet
17:20:19 <ais523> people tend to vote for the Liberals in by-elections a lot, because it means they can vote Liberal without accidentally letting them into power
17:20:30 <AnMaster> is that right or left of labour?
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17:20:32 <ehird1> AnMaster: the UK's third party
17:20:40 <ais523> AnMaster: everything's mixed with everything else
17:20:48 <AnMaster> you people and your three-party-system
17:20:53 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense with less than 5
17:21:00 <ehird1> ais523: yes, but the lib dems want to abolish winner-takes-all voting, for chrissake
17:21:01 <ais523> although labour are so right-wing atm, it would be hard for the liberals to be even further right
17:21:02 <ehird1> nobody wants to do that
17:21:12 <ais523> ehird1: the libs do, as it would give them a better chance of getting in
17:21:20 <ehird1> ais523: er, no, (wrt right wing)
17:21:32 <ais523> ehird1: I mean, for a UK political party
17:21:35 <ehird1> the democrats are to the right of labour and conservative
17:21:51 <ehird1> where they're positively hippie communists
17:21:53 <ais523> the BNP manage to be to the right of labour, but I don't think you'd get many votes over there in the UK
17:21:58 <AnMaster> you are intentionally confusing me right?
17:22:06 <ehird1> ais523: the bnp finished 5th in the recent european elections
17:22:20 <ais523> (The BNP are pretty awful, btw: everyone hates them due to their immigration policies, and their other policies are pretty bad too)
17:22:32 <ais523> ehird1: yes, they advertised heavily in a couple of areas and got two seats out of it, the same as the Greens
17:22:43 <ais523> AFAICT, they want to make Britain into a police state
17:22:44 <ehird1> the bnp is just a party of nationalist racist fucks without any unifying policy apart from "we hate other people"
17:22:48 <ais523> and sort of advertise that openly
17:22:59 <ais523> well, at least they're honest
17:23:06 <ehird1> no, they claim not to be racist.
17:23:12 <ehird1> ooh, i remember a ukip tv ad recently
17:23:15 <ehird1> they never once mentioned bnp
17:23:19 <ehird1> though it was hinted at all the itme
17:23:39 <ehird1> "[despite supporting our racistp olicies,] don't be swayed into voting for an extremist party"
17:23:48 <ehird1> ...so I agreed with him. I won't vote for ukip!
17:23:55 <ais523> ukip is who you vote for if you like the BNP's general position on the political spectrum, but hate their actual policies
17:24:05 <ehird1> er, their policies are basically identical
17:24:11 <oerjan> ehird1: norway used to have winner-takes-all voting, until the labor party came about and the other parties swiftly changed it because they would be wiped out otherwise...
17:24:12 <ehird1> UKIP is sort of like BNP except smiling instead of shouting
17:24:15 <ais523> unfortunately, such people are probably quite hard to come across; I'd much sooner vote UKIP than BNP, though, but I'm very unlikely to vote either
17:24:20 <oerjan> (also about 80 years ago)
17:24:24 <ais523> ehird1: does the UKIP have their own private police force?
17:24:33 <ais523> which the real police have to follow around to make sure it doesn't get out of hand?
17:24:38 <oerjan> (when it was communist)
17:24:53 <ehird1> I'm going to start the People's Communist Party of Russia
17:24:57 <ais523> also, I doubt the UKIP is as rabidly in favour of conscription even outside wartime as the BNP is
17:25:07 <AnMaster> so I feel to play a snes game. Which should I pick: Secret of Mana or Zelda: A link to the past?
17:25:09 <ehird1> we support nationalising everything into the russian government
17:25:48 <ehird1> AnMaster: you gave it 32 seconds, dude
17:26:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, well yeah, I'm going to have to decide myself soon
17:26:11 <ehird1> did you just say zelda sucks
17:26:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, zelda doesn't suck, so discarding that...
17:26:19 <AnMaster> both the mentioned games are good
17:26:21 * ehird1 attempts to install w3m to load the security archive page
17:26:25 <AnMaster> I just can't decide which one atm
17:26:42 <ehird1> 20% package luist scanned
17:26:48 <ehird1> this takes <1s on my desktop
17:26:52 <Deewiant> I never liked the Zelda games much
17:26:53 <AnMaster> <ehird1> 20% package luist scanned
17:27:04 <ehird1> it is a gay operating system
17:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird1, unaware of that euphemism
17:27:53 <ehird1> you know what, i should check the security pageson my iphonwe
17:27:59 <ehird1> on account of it not making me want to shoot things
17:28:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then I'll discard your opinion. Since clearly it is too far from my own
17:28:48 <ehird1> hey, you know, the magic is that debian's actually buzzing along happily in its chroot
17:28:54 <AnMaster> ehird1, or zelda oot in mupen64plus?
17:28:56 <Deewiant> Why ask people for differing opinions if you're going to ignore them :-P
17:28:58 <ehird1> i just need to surgically extractit
17:29:00 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:29:08 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
17:29:21 <AnMaster> oh wait bool doesn't work when selecting between three
17:29:22 <ehird1> computers are fun, despite sucking
17:29:24 <ehird1> i am quite a fan of them
17:31:11 <AnMaster> ehird1, that gives four choices, what if I get the fourth one, clearly it can't be assigned to any of the other choices, that would be unfair
17:31:29 <ehird1> assuming a uniform distribution it's still random
17:31:30 <AnMaster> ehird1, that has a worst case of infinite time
17:31:38 <ehird1> AnMaster: yes, it does.
17:31:47 <ehird1> so does continuing your tedious conversation
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17:32:04 <AnMaster> actually I decided with a local program
17:32:14 <ehird1> lol, boehm gc needs /proc/stat
17:32:23 <ehird1> silly boehm, /procs are for ... kids?
17:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird1, bind mount /proc in the chroot
17:32:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: how, I don't have man
17:32:56 <ehird1> although i have the man pages, I think
17:33:22 <ehird1> wait, i could use the child's manpages
17:33:30 <AnMaster> mount -t proc proc /path/to/chroot/proc
17:33:42 <AnMaster> mount --bind /proc /path/to/chroot/proc
17:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, if it is in fstab it would work
17:34:14 <AnMaster> ehird1, you might need to mount /dev too for other stuff
17:35:18 <ehird1> add user after installign sudo
17:35:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: obviously it is impossible to get something with exactly 1/3 probability from a finite sequence of uniformly independent random bits
17:36:18 <oklopol> you only get spaces of size 2^n, and no subset can contain a third of those points
17:36:31 <ehird1> ais523: I think the armel port doesn't get binary security updates
17:36:45 <oklopol> (the proof was totally needed.)
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17:36:52 <ehird1> oerjan: hmm right, i misthought
17:37:14 <ehird1> when we tackle the booting
17:37:26 <ehird1> and surgically extract the child debian
17:37:45 <ehird1> (you don't need special drivers for console and keyboard right? even on arm)
17:37:58 <ehird1> and i guess it has the sata or whatever drivers built in?
17:38:06 <ehird1> wait, that's in the kernel right
17:38:14 <ehird1> so I'll need to install a kernel or use the existing one
17:39:49 <oerjan> they need to develop a sata2 protocol, and then a sata3
17:40:17 <oerjan> so that after a while, people can was what satan is up to
17:40:48 <ehird1> and i think sata3 is being worked on
17:41:14 <ehird1> next we need the sant protocol
17:41:19 <ehird1> and name it alphabetically in reverse
17:41:54 <ehird1> "chroot /debian su ehird" works
17:44:40 <ehird1> so who's bored enough to take a look at the bootup system with me
17:46:42 <ais523> ehird1: that isn't even worth answering
17:47:00 <ais523> btw, why are you running a chroot, rather than just replacing the OS?
17:48:02 <ehird1> ais523: because a chroot is easy to get working first, and I don't think debian has the bootup code
17:48:23 <ehird1> so I'm getting it working (done), then extracting it into the upper system
17:48:30 <ehird1> but keeping the bootup stuff
17:53:03 <ehird1> ais523: so! I think that the three pertinent files are /linuxrc, /config.data and /splash.bmp
17:53:12 <ehird1> I think linuxrc contains the kernel, it's certainly a binray of some sort
17:53:20 <ais523> there's a .bmp file in the root directory?
17:53:52 <ehird1> ais523: yes. it is the bootup splash screen
17:54:09 <ehird1> "UBISURFER: The Ubiquitous Surfer"
17:54:12 <ais523> they should have found somewhere else to put it
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18:00:43 <MizardX> «18:52:34» {oerjan} semper ubi sub ubi
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18:00:51 <MizardX> «18:58:06» {ehird2} what did I miss?
18:00:56 <ehird2> ais523: I fingerpoken and mittengrabben and did "./linuxrc"
18:01:09 <ehird2> it went to teh desktop for a second as X died
18:01:13 <ehird2> it displayed the splash
18:01:17 <ehird2> and went through normal bootup
18:01:30 <ehird2> now, it appears almost instantly after pressing the power button
18:01:35 <ehird2> and is the first thing displayed on screen
18:01:36 <ais523> I didn't realise kernels were executable...
18:01:43 <ehird2> so I gather that /linuxrc is at least the kernel
18:01:49 <ehird2> and perhaps the bootup
18:01:57 <ehird2> ais523: they aren't usually, I don't think
18:02:05 <ais523> also, a name ending 'rc' normally indicates a config file
18:02:08 <ehird2> I'm scared that running it in rootspace somehow put it in kernelspace
18:02:13 <ais523> that is one weird setup
18:02:27 <ehird2> ais523: it's used by initramfs for the same purpose or skdjfghnfkjghbndfsk\jhdfkg whatever
18:02:36 <ehird2> so I'm going to install a kernel package in debian
18:02:45 <ehird2> and see if it makes a similar file
18:02:55 <ehird2> if not, we need to retrofit this debian on to that kernel
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18:06:38 <ehird2> but what a bizarre kernel that executing it in userspace resets the system to it...
18:07:21 <ais523> exactly what I was thinking
18:07:29 <ais523> what does running file on it say?
18:07:59 <pikhq> ehird2: linuxrc is ran before init, if booting from an initramfs.
18:08:07 <ehird2> I don't *have* file, but I'll install it in debian and run it outside of the chroot
18:08:16 <ehird2> pikhq: then where would my kernel be?
18:08:21 <ehird2> ...I'll ask /sys/kernel
18:08:54 <ehird2> pikhq: Doesn't exist, man.
18:09:09 <pikhq> Then your kernel does not exist.
18:09:16 * ais523 considers using a Feather-OS, and hotswapping init
18:09:23 <ais523> and getting a different set of services that have been running all along
18:09:52 <ehird2> pikhq: You assumec x86.
18:11:26 <pikhq> Fine, then. /vmlinux ?
18:12:03 <ehird2> I know this because I executed it and it reset my system with a splash screen.
18:12:10 <ehird2> pikhq: you are wrong because this is not initramfs
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18:12:23 <ehird2> pikhq: but fine, do point me to the kernel
18:12:28 <pikhq> ehird2, the Linux kernel itself is not executable.
18:12:44 <pikhq> (unless you're using UML?)
18:12:47 <ais523> ehird2: incidentally, my guess was right; my arm-linux toolchain is /exactly/ 8 levels deep in the directory hierarchy
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18:13:42 <ehird2> pikhq: i'll ask file what linuxrc is
18:14:22 <GregorR-L> /linuxrc is just /sbin/init for lamers.
18:15:07 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Hmm, does Linux try /sbin/init, then /linuxrc?
18:15:12 * ais523 half-expects it to be a.out format, given how weird this system seems to be
18:15:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Something like that, I don't recall *shrugs*
18:15:33 <ais523> ehird2: stripped? for the right CPU?
18:15:40 <ehird2> how can i find out where my kernel is?
18:16:02 <ehird2> GregorR-L: I don't have one, THIS IS A FUCKED UP ARM PLATFORM
18:16:08 <ais523> ehird2: it would be so spectacularly great if you could run it under gdb
18:16:11 <ehird2> If I could just go oh hey grub whatcha booting don't you think I would
18:16:17 <ehird2> ais523: I think it's juwst init
18:16:21 <ehird2> That'd explain how it can run in userspace
18:16:26 * ais523 wonders what gdb /sbin/init would do
18:16:33 <ais523> but doesn't dare try it
18:16:55 <GregorR-L> ehird2: A) every ARM platform I've ever used has had a bootloader, but then they haven't been "fucked up", B) if you don't have a bootloader to read the kernel from a disk of some kind, then the kernel /must/ be burnt to PROM.
18:16:58 <ehird2> wow, I have two inits running
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18:17:26 <ais523> ehird2: ok, that is mindblowing
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18:18:03 <ais523> would it be worth more or less permanently breaking your system by putting init in your init.d
18:18:05 <ehird2> GregorR-L: It boots up immediately into the splash screen that /linuxrc gives
18:18:07 <ehird2> and no key does anything
18:18:09 <ais523> and creating an init forkbomb?
18:18:15 <ehird2> and I can't find any relevant files
18:18:23 <GregorR-L> ehird: That just means it's a very boring bootloader ;)
18:18:28 <ehird2> it's gotta know where it is
18:18:35 <ehird2> GregorR-L: so i can't ask it :P
18:18:38 <ehird2> surely linux knows where itself is
18:18:54 <ehird2> GregorR-L: how do i ask it then
18:18:57 <GregorR-L> If there is a bootloader, then Linux certainly doesn't know where it came from.
18:19:14 <GregorR-L> And if there isn't, well, at some point it must have made it into memory, so it's detached from its original location.
18:19:57 <GregorR-L> In short: Poke around until you (don't?) get lucky, because /sys is not your friend in this case :P
18:20:07 <ais523> ooh, idea: you know how RAM loses its data when it's turned off?
18:20:25 <ais523> there's probably some way to make it go specifically to 0, or to 1, at power-down
18:20:29 <ehird2> GregorR-L: Worst-case, I just implant the debian ignoring the kernel
18:20:32 <ehird2> and have it use the existing one
18:20:35 <ais523> so, you could have a system which just starts with RAM in a particular state
18:20:41 <ais523> in other words, it loads up already booted
18:20:45 <ais523> like unhibernating, but even faster
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18:21:52 <ehird2> linuxrc can't be an init replacement
18:22:00 <ehird2> what do you say to that pikhq?!
18:22:01 <ais523> and init is a different binary, not a symlink or hardlink/
18:22:09 <ehird2> if i just start init it tells me it's busybox init and sits there
18:22:34 <ehird2> proc 1'scmdline says init
18:22:52 <ais523> did you know that init never actually starts; it sort-of platonically comes into being
18:23:14 <ais523> it isn't loaded, it just gets created in an already-loaded form
18:24:16 <ehird2> so anyone know where my kernel might be? pikhq, wise guy? :P
18:26:10 <ehird2> /lib/arm-linux-gnueabi
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18:31:17 <ehird2> ais523: will any logs or dmesg point you think?
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18:34:41 <ehird2> ais523: wtf there aer other pratitionsw
18:36:57 <ehird2> "no such device or address" if i try and mount em >_<
18:37:40 <ehird2> how many places can you hide a kernel
18:40:36 <ehird2> ais523: armv5tejl with gnueabi
18:40:39 <ehird2> that is what this kernel is
18:42:14 <ehird2> ais523: this arch seems to require softare emulation of floats, heh
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18:50:42 * ehird2 backs up system to sd card
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19:16:08 <ais523> ehird2: found your kernel yet?
19:16:26 <ehird2> ais523: backing up to the SD, slowly
19:16:32 <ehird2> then I'll perform intensive surgery
19:16:32 <ais523> also, very strange that someone would mknod partitions that don't exist
19:16:50 <ais523> it's as if, why bother?
19:17:15 <ehird2> they also made /mnt directories for sda,sda1,sdb,sdb1,sdc,sdc1
19:17:20 <ehird2> despite that having no relation to the partitions
19:18:10 <ehird2> it's like kafka, the linux distribution
19:18:48 <oerjan> at least it has processes
19:18:56 <ehird2> the verdict of the trial is that you're to be left alone with your root account and it
19:19:05 <ehird2> and you will inevitably enact your own punishment upon yourself
19:19:27 <oerjan> the bad news is, it turns _you_ into a bug if you leave it on overnight
19:19:46 <ehird2> someone should mash up all of kafka's books together
19:19:57 <ehird2> hideous monster beetle on trial for ... something to do with amerika
19:20:25 <ehird2> "Hey Cthulhu! Not lookin' so unique now, are we? Ha. ha. ha."
19:20:45 <ehird2> "Heyy, court's starting!"
19:21:02 <ehird2> that would be so perfect
19:21:20 <ehird2> cthulhu fhtagn! cthulhu fhtagn!
19:21:25 <ehird2> means no worries for the rest of your days?
19:22:00 <ehird2> your very, very short days
19:22:15 <oerjan> http://www.cthulhulives.org/musical/cdinfo.html
19:22:26 <oerjan> there is nothing new under the sun
19:22:41 <ais523> ehird2: on the other hand, I'd imagine you'd be full of worries
19:22:42 <ehird2> okay wait, kafka+cthulhu+bat boy
19:22:51 <ehird2> ais523: you got my reference right.
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19:47:02 <ais523> ehird1: yes, but you said it
19:47:13 <ais523> nothing said by anyone else
19:47:28 <oerjan> qantfhing the horrible
19:52:57 <ehird1> fjkbndbkgdjbhnfkgjnbdfjklbnfkgjhbfnfdjklghbndnjkgbnldfkgnjbghldfkgjbngsjkldfbnerilughbnseruighnhjbierudfjfjghiwerujkgjgnfhiwerulfioklrfhuiojklrfwedhrrsdgryhsdlghgsdswerdfghgsg
19:55:04 <oerjan> you can say that again. but probably not without cutting and pasting.
19:59:30 <oerjan> time dilation gets you every time
19:59:51 <oerjan> unless you stay perfectly motionless
20:00:03 <oerjan> but then you may have other problems
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20:13:26 <ehird1> this is getting annoying
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21:47:22 <ehird1> wdcnejruidfkgvnrtgntjkrnetjhbghn34tgnrkjhrkbghnerbnkbnjktrybnktj34nbjkrlgjkghbntkljbn
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21:49:24 <ais523> ehird1: wow, you actually managed to spell that correctly
21:50:55 <ehird1> copying all of / including /dev /mnt a nd /proc
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21:52:21 <ehird1> ais523: qi have a feeling such files are stalling this backup
21:52:42 <ais523> it's probably waiting on stdin
21:53:09 <ais523> (I made that mistake on normish, when I tried to scp /var/www)
21:53:09 <ehird1> ais523: should i \6c\/
21:53:38 <ehird1> ais523: but it has been going since about 7\;30pm
21:55:22 <ehird1> I'll just cp /dev/hd /mnt/sd
21:56:06 <ais523> is the hd smaller than the sd?
21:56:46 <ehird1> ais523: alas, tens of megabytes bigger
21:57:07 <ehird1> ais523: but not all used ofc
21:57:46 <ehird1> ais523: fses wont store at the end of a hd will they?
21:57:47 <ais523> using tar will probably work better, then
21:57:52 <ais523> it was invented for that purpose, more or less
21:58:15 <ehird1> ais523: yes, but you fail to realise how colossally SLOW this thing is
21:58:20 <ehird1> the copying took hours just to copy 300mb
21:58:32 <ais523> backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then
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22:02:05 * ehird2 decides to use a usb sdtick instead
22:02:16 <ais523> <ais523> backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then
22:02:23 <ais523> <ehird1> multiple hours
22:02:48 <ehird2> i'm going to try a usb stick, which should be bigger and faster than SD cards
22:03:29 <ehird2> Ruthless OS surgery time.
22:03:33 <ehird2> I'ma pimp this debian up.
22:04:01 <ehird2> I wonder why this thing comes with a chess prorgam.
22:04:07 <ehird2> Doesn't exactly scream "netbook".
22:06:50 <ehird2> mycroftiv: well, you have, like
22:07:40 <ehird2> kind of doesn't fit in, you know? odd for something that's primarily marketed as "You can get on the internet anywhere"
22:07:55 <ehird2> esp when strapped for disk space
22:08:29 <mycroftiv> hmm, i think there is consumer demand for always at least some kind of game/solitaire entertainment and chess is probably what they thought was the lightest and easiest to add, so it seems reasonable to me
22:10:15 <mycroftiv> but im pretty ignorant about the general netbook scene, i find full-size laptops to be unusably small to begin with :(
22:10:17 <ehird2> mycroftiv: are you confusing notebooks and netbooks, perhaps?
22:10:37 <mycroftiv> chess seems trivial even within the context of netbook storage constaints
22:10:50 <ehird2> I really don't think the target market of this thing overlaps much with the group of people who would like a chess game alongside their internet-based + computing staples stuff
22:10:59 <ehird2> it just seems odd to me
22:11:01 <ais523> it's more likely to be speed that's the sticking point with netbook chess, not anything else
22:11:04 <ehird2> Solitaire I'd understand
22:11:21 <ehird2> everyone loves solitaire, it's trivial to play casually and it's in accessories menus everywhere
22:11:30 <ais523> and chess is standard on both Windows and Ubuntu nowadays
22:11:42 <ehird2> but i don't see a lot of people going around the place, catching up with friends and family and then having a nice in-depth game of chess with the computer, you know?
22:11:45 <mycroftiv> ais523: nah, my apple ][ chess programs from the 80s were plenty good to beat anyone who doesnt actually *care* about chess
22:11:51 <ehird2> ais523: sure, but ubuntu comes with all sorts of games
22:12:41 <ehird2> but then this thing's browser works by sending compressed screenshots of IE running on servers that proxies your interaction to the page with the server
22:12:49 <ais523> ehird2: /screenshots/?
22:12:49 <ehird2> so there's clearly some sort of altered mind state involved
22:12:57 <ais523> how do they handle, say, links?
22:13:06 <ais523> I would have thought compressed HTML would work better
22:13:20 <ehird2> they advertise java support
22:13:30 <ehird2> also, rendering and JS in firefox on this thing are dog slow
22:13:35 <ehird2> ais523: links, you click one and it works
22:13:39 <mycroftiv> ehird2: you arent actually serious in what you just said are you? it doesnt actually run a web browser on remote servers, does it?
22:13:40 <ehird2> i guess it proxies all mouse events, except
22:13:45 <ehird2> if you click a text field
22:13:49 <ehird2> you get a gtk text field
22:13:52 <ehird2> which after confirming
22:13:57 <ehird2> goes back to the server's windows text field
22:14:02 <ehird2> mycroftiv: with active-c
22:14:24 <mycroftiv> wow, i am clearly way behind the times, that sounds totally insane
22:14:24 <ehird2> I am tempted to, ahem, root one of them thar boxen.
22:14:32 <ehird2> mycroftiv: don't worry, it is
22:15:05 <mycroftiv> sounds like you can be very confident about the privacy of your web browsing, definitely.
22:15:33 <ehird2> i think they saw opera mini, which proxies all requests but then simply pre-layoutises and parses the HTML, compresses the images, and shoves it back in a hyper-compressed format -- a perfectly sane model -- and misunderstood it entirely when they saw compression artifacts on the images
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22:20:29 <ehird1> pressed control and del by mistake
22:20:51 <ehird1> also mycroftiv i'm replacing the OS, wihch runs everything as root, includi8ng X, with a more sane debian
22:21:02 <ehird1> sincei t's a crazy debian-based ARM thingy, this is non trivial
22:21:09 <ehird1> I've made a chroot debian
22:21:22 <ehird1> now i need to surgically extract it into the host
22:21:28 <ehird1> keeping the host booting code playing nicely with it
22:21:36 <ehird1> after backing up my current system on here for when i fuck things up
22:22:40 <ehird1> ais523: the sdas are for usb sticks.
22:23:32 <ehird1> i wish the fucking usb stick would stop blinking at me
22:23:36 <ehird1> yes. I know you are there.
22:23:48 <ehird1> does cp on devices work
22:23:59 <ehird1> or will i have to do cat /dev/root >/mnt/sda1/foo
22:24:37 <ehird1> ais523: I can mount this directly afterwards when it's done, right?
22:24:40 <ehird1> like, loop or whatever
22:25:11 <ais523> and cp on devices doesn't work, it copies the device not its contents
22:25:22 <ehird1> ok, df tells me about /dev/root. which doesn't exist
22:25:30 <ehird1> just fills me with confidence
22:25:59 <ehird1> I'd put debian on the usb stick, 'cept i doubt the booter will agree
22:27:03 <GregorR> <ehird1> pressed control alt del by mistake // how does one accomplish this feat? :P
22:27:39 <ehird1> ais523: will writing to the disk while this cat runs break shit
22:27:49 <ehird1> i guess so, but my system obviously doesnt know tht
22:28:09 <ehird1> wait a sec, why am i even bothering with this, i can just move stuff to a subdirectory
22:28:25 <ehird1> GregorR: but really, by playing with keys
22:28:26 <ais523> ehird1: is that like, balancing your hand on your head gently?
22:28:42 <ehird1> ais523: it's a facepalm, but you only do the 4th dimensional bits
22:28:51 <ehird1> basically you do nothing for a second
22:30:05 <ehird1> 26mb backed up already, fuck this shit for now
22:31:41 <ehird1> time to examine /debian
22:32:14 <ehird1> i know that linuxrc will execute /sbin/init
22:32:50 <ehird1> ais523: theoretically this should all work fine
22:33:19 <ehird1> worst case this thing is bricked until i can open it up and get at the HD
22:33:41 <ehird1> ok, first, time to relocate the existing system to a meager subdirectory
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22:34:15 <ehird1> surprisingly, moving /lib doesn't break things.
22:35:07 <GregorR> It shouldn't break anything that's already running, but moving anything else after you've done that would probably be tough ..
22:35:20 <ehird1> No, commands are still executing.
22:35:38 <ehird1> Anyway, when I move /usr/lib I can just set LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
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22:36:38 <GregorR> Yeah, but /lib contains /lib/ld-linux.so :P
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00:35:59 <ehird> GregorR: It worked, actually
00:36:29 <ehird> I moved the whole system to a subdirectory and migrated debian outwards
00:36:49 <ehird> and everything worked instantly, but now it won't boot due to a seemingly unsolvable without a lot more work problem
00:36:54 <ehird> I'll need to get at the HD to rest it
00:39:23 <ehird> GregorR: but who says you can't totally move a linux system while it runs?
00:40:04 <GregorR> If you move /lib, you will no longer be able to run new dynamically linked programs.
00:40:35 <GregorR> (By new I mean you won't be able to load new ones, not that you won't be able to load ones you haven't loaded before or something)
00:41:10 <GregorR> Because dynamically-linked programs depend on the existence and location of /lib/ld-linux.so.foo
00:41:42 <GregorR> So if mv still worked, it was probably statically linked (busybox?)
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00:56:59 <ehird> GregorR: Busybox, yeah.
00:57:13 <ehird> GregorR: Also, as soon as I moved debian in, that file existed, of course.
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01:04:12 <ehird> GregorR: So I migrated it pretty much perfectly modulo bootup.
01:04:25 <ehird> (It is initramfs, btw.)
01:04:34 <ehird> (It uses squashfs as well as /linuxrc)
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01:09:37 <GregorR> Yeah, but you still need to run 'mv' to move debian in, and was mv not statically linked, you'd be all "oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"
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01:14:13 <ehird> GregorR: Hooray for busybox
01:32:57 <ehird> Future civilisations will develop whole theories of psychology as to why we have bugs in all our systems due to an oversight that could only be a cognitive defect: a few keypresses giving full access.
01:33:03 <ehird> They come up with nothing, and never explain the mystery of:
01:33:09 <ehird> ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A
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03:24:06 * GregorR is trying to make peppermint soda.
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04:17:57 <ehird> "Sometimes you may want to do the opposite of abs(): turn a positive number into a negative."
04:17:57 <ehird> http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.abs.php#58508
04:27:20 <ehird> GregorR: Go one comment ↑ up
04:27:28 <ehird> You will jump off a bridge
04:28:06 <ehird> With great difficulty!
04:28:44 <ehird> GregorR: Also, just keep scrolling up.
04:28:47 <ehird> They argue about it.
04:29:21 <GregorR> I scrolled up one more to see the not-retarded response (although I'd just use -abs($x), there's no reason to put that in a function)
04:29:29 <ehird> Just as a note to the post below, you could join that function into one line instead of two as follows:
04:29:30 <ehird> function change_pol($integer){
04:29:30 <ehird> return ((!is_numeric($integer)?false:(0 - $integer));
04:29:36 <ehird> GregorR: It continues right up to the top
04:30:50 * GregorR stabs himself in the face.
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04:41:06 <ehird> huh, the original unix ran on a machine with less than 64k of memory
04:41:09 <ehird> of course that's obvious in retrospect
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05:03:27 <ehird> GregorR: make some swig ingest drink
05:13:29 <GregorR> I couldn't find all the ingredients.
05:15:12 <ehird> GregorR: like, the list, or literally?
05:15:27 <GregorR> Uhh, I have a log, I can find the list :P
05:15:34 <ehird> The only ones that are even slightly non-trivial are lavender and caffeine... and maybe brown sugar if you live in crazytown.
05:15:49 <ehird> (But, you know, brown sugar was ON THE CARDS. It was not mandatory. :P)
05:16:05 <ehird> Want me to ship you some?
05:16:14 <GregorR> Uhhh ... only if I don't have to pay for it :P
05:16:35 <ehird> GregorR: I'm sure the costs of shipping a tiny, tiny bottle overseas are exorbitant :P
05:16:38 <ehird> of course, I could just make it myself.
05:48:29 <ehird> Wow, doing a bidirectional process pipe in C is ... awkward.
05:49:24 <ehird> Like, ridiculously so.
05:53:07 <ehird> Who the fuck designed this shit?
05:57:00 <pikhq> ... Awkward in Unix? Definitely not original. The original design was at least *consistent*. ;)
05:57:26 <pikhq> (that is to say, if it's K&R, I shall murder someone. I'm not sure who.)
05:57:55 <ehird> It's just... holy fuck, you need to do a bunch of pipe calls with 2-element arrays and dup2 and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
05:58:06 <ehird> Why can't you just do "rw" on popen and get two files x_x
05:59:02 * ehird writes scandalous_popen
06:01:32 <ehird> I need to use a temporary file on one end anyway.
06:02:49 <ehird> ...mktemp() modifies its argument.
06:02:55 <ehird> it is hard to express how much I hate C
06:05:30 <ehird> I'll try and express how much I hate every C function operating on strings and the environment.
06:07:01 <pikhq> Yeah, the string functions are *really* bad.
06:07:59 <mycroftiv> ironically, when i learned C i was impressed with the string handling, because my expectations were set by Apple ][ BASIC
06:08:08 <mycroftiv> the secret to happiness in life: low expectations
06:08:55 <ehird> The string and environment functions in C are a festering pile of teeming little bugs, except the bugs are actually made of excrement, and you discover that so's the floor; and it's all over your face, except now you're eating it, and vomiting on it, and eating that, and soon you're shitting out bugs
06:08:55 <ehird> and more faeces and contributing to the general mess; meanwhile, the bugs, including the ones of your own creation, painfully detach every single limb in your body, keeping nervous signals connected wirelessly so you still feel the pain. They bore into your brain, where they give you the simultaneous
06:08:55 <ehird> feeling of the worst possible horror and the worst possible pain, but keep you alive for longer than it takes for A(g64,g64) suns to die out just so you can keep experiencing it. At the end, you are buried alive in the pile of shitvomitbugs, and suffocate to death while inhaling in the putrid
06:08:57 <ehird> vapours and indeed the shit, vomit and bugs themselves, along with the rotted remains of your limbs. You expire with this feeling.
06:09:11 <ehird> That is what they are.
06:09:49 <ehird> You are most welcome.
06:11:03 <ehird> Now I have to go and work out the length of some character buffers to allocate, to avoid my computer spending a nanosecond on it at runtime.
06:11:12 <ehird> See you in a few years.
06:12:11 <ehird> Okay, jesus christ; is there a popen that takes an array of arguments instead?
06:12:23 <ehird> I would very much like that.
06:13:10 <mycroftiv> i do plan 9 C which handles it all a bit differently, so im useless for old-fashioned unix standard library stuff
06:13:43 <ehird> Plan 9's string support is marginally more bearable.
06:13:53 <mycroftiv> eh, its still the same stuff really
06:14:09 <ehird> Something like Python's is the goddamn panacea because it just damn works.
06:14:18 <ehird> In fact, I am going to write it, right now.
06:14:33 <ehird> It'll in fact be easier than figuring this out.
06:15:34 <mycroftiv> yeah the thing about C string handling is that you are really supposed to write your own personal C string libraries of stuff and then take them with you for the rest of your life
06:16:34 <ehird> I'm a crazy computer socialist, I want most things to be in the hardware and the rest to be in the closely-related language/OS.
06:17:07 <ehird> (Basically I just don't like stopping my own head from hitting a brick wall as opposed to stopping everyone's, which I guess applies to real-life socialism too.)
06:17:20 <mycroftiv> i like your vision but i dont have the same dislike of building layers of abstraction out of disparate components
06:17:36 <mycroftiv> to me layered abstractions mean that it doesnt matter what the hardware is or does as long as you can get a UTM out of it
06:17:42 <ehird> I like abstraction, I dislike unneeded disbtraction
06:18:11 <mycroftiv> i agree that in practice the 'layers' often fall apart, which is where the problems happen imo
06:18:13 <ehird> take current hardware architectures, they have a huge disparity from our high level languages, the concepts they use (garbage collection, tagged pointers, ...) - yet it's our fault
06:18:40 <ehird> it's perfectly possible to abolish that layer of "abstraction", and the result is a more coherent, faster, less roundabout system
06:18:43 <ehird> and I think that's always a good thing
06:18:50 <pikhq> Because Intel makes great C machines.
06:18:56 <pikhq> (they can throw money at it!)
06:19:04 <ehird> pikhq: do they, though? modern x86 differs quite a lot from C
06:19:09 <pikhq> ... Actually, x86 is not *that* much of a C machine.
06:19:10 <ehird> I think they make great windows machines.
06:19:30 <ehird> In fact their design philosophy is basically that of windows; pile shit on top if it saves us time and money to design.
06:19:36 <pikhq> It's more of an assembly machine -- it was originally designed assuming assembly programs.
06:19:42 <pikhq> ... With a lot of shit added on.
06:19:48 <ehird> (ok, no offence to the intel guys, they're great; it's the climate that forces this)
06:20:14 <mycroftiv> i still dont understand how the chip architecture matters, once you have written an implementation of a given language - thats where my brain fails to make the connection
06:20:24 <ehird> mycroftiv: Sure, you can ignore it, *but*
06:20:30 <mycroftiv> how is fortran on powerpc different from fortran on x86?
06:20:36 <ehird> Ah, that's not the thing though.
06:20:45 <ehird> All "general purpose" architectures aren't really and pretty much suck.
06:20:47 <pikhq> mycroftiv: The architecture limits efficient compilation techniques, for one.
06:20:55 <ehird> I'm talking Lisp on an x86 vs Lisp on a good lisp machine.
06:21:08 <ehird> The latter does checking of tagged pointers in hardware and automatically upgrades to bignums.
06:21:13 <mycroftiv> pikhq: hmm, how is that important? stuff is so fast nowadays compiling is always trivial, isnt it?
06:21:15 <ehird> It handles concurrent, generational garbage collection - in hardware.
06:21:23 <pikhq> To compile most languages to x86, you pretty much compile it to something vaguely like C and then compile C.
06:21:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: The problem is that "good enough" only seems alright because we haven't seen better.
06:21:44 <ehird> We're blinded to what hardware designed for the top-level could do for us.
06:22:04 <mycroftiv> i just dont hear any specifics, and i think that its not theoretically compatible with the reality that everything is a utm
06:22:10 <ehird> Massive, MASSIVE speed increases; Cheaper chips due to a less convoluted design;
06:22:21 <ehird> Energy and therefore money saved by running less cycles - running instead *better* cycles
06:22:30 <ehird> mycroftiv: Yes, everything is *theoretically equivalent in what it can do*.
06:22:32 <ehird> It's about HOW you do it.
06:22:36 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Just because everything in practical use is a UTM doesn't mean that we should be using Brainfuck machine.
06:22:45 <pikhq> using *a* Brainfuck machine, rather.
06:22:52 <mycroftiv> where is a source that demonstrates massive efficiency gains of the type you are talking about?
06:22:53 <ehird> I don't think it's a "real-world" kind of thing either
06:22:58 <ehird> I think it's a correct type of abstraction
06:23:03 <ehird> mycroftiv: nowhere because nobody does this kind of shit
06:23:09 <ehird> I arrive at it through pure reason
06:23:17 <mycroftiv> so why am i supposed to believe your claims, without evidence?
06:23:20 <pikhq> mycroftiv: None, because the last Lisp machine was designed before I was born.
06:23:27 <ehird> mycroftiv: Here is some pure logic to attempt to justify it:
06:23:44 <ehird> If we do 50 x86 instructions to shuffle memory and registers, making conditional branches, ... — just to add two bignums together.
06:23:45 <pikhq> ehird: Hmm. Actually, there has been some of "this kind of shit".
06:24:01 <mycroftiv> as i said, to me logic seems to lie in the direction of 'you make a UTM, then you build abstractions on top, the low level doesnt matter'
06:24:02 <ehird> We do ONE lisp machine instruction, which concurrently does a fixnum addition and checks the tag on the value,
06:24:05 <ehird> sees that it's a bignum
06:24:07 <ehird> discards that result
06:24:11 <pikhq> The JVM was designed to be implementable in hardware, and Sun has actually made Java machines that run Java rather efficiently.
06:24:12 <ehird> and goes into a MICROCODE tight loop
06:24:19 <ehird> that's (a) much faster
06:24:24 <ehird> (b) much, much less pointless shuffling
06:24:31 <ehird> and those are what lead to less power consumption
06:26:15 <mycroftiv> thats a good rationale, but somehow i never got the sense your motivation was really ecological
06:26:42 <ehird> if we use less power
06:26:50 <ehird> we can afford more power of the computational kind
06:26:56 <ehird> at the same $ cost
06:27:00 <ehird> it's a combination of a BETTER result (faster, less power, etc)
06:27:09 <ehird> omitting needless "abstractions" that aren't
06:27:10 <mycroftiv> i guess to me the big issue is that we have spare computational power already that we need to find something useful to do with
06:27:14 <ehird> they're anti-abstractions; they confuse nd obscure the high-level
06:27:17 <ehird> instead of harmonising with it
06:27:26 <ehird> and if we can destroy such silly things, whyever would we not?
06:27:39 <ehird> of course my OS won't run on such chips by default
06:27:45 <ehird> but we CAN'T destroy such silly things at the moment
06:27:48 <ehird> due to how the market is
06:27:55 <ehird> if we were in a position to, absolutely
06:28:07 <ehird> and, I do hope that one day it will be done, and I'd like to work on it
06:28:47 <mycroftiv> i personally feel you are making arguments that are like claiming the fonts used in a document determine the quality of the content, but i remain very interested and supportive on the meta level :)
06:29:10 <ehird> mycroftiv: theoretically, this buys you nothing in expressivity
06:29:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: but would you use a 3ghz zilog processor in lieu of, e.g. a modern Intel Xeon?
06:29:41 <ehird> there IS such a thing as a better architecture
06:29:58 <ehird> which absolutely was that to
06:30:10 <mycroftiv> i was agreeing about better architecture
06:30:23 <ehird> it's sort of like, mycroftiv,
06:30:26 <mycroftiv> i just see the chips that we have today as perfectly capable and adequate for implementing any abstractions whatsoever
06:30:27 <ehird> I could build my lisp os on top of windows
06:30:34 <ehird> I could do it and it would work
06:30:52 <ehird> the code would be god-awful, windows' overhead that concentrates on things that don't matter to my OS would slow it down,
06:30:57 <ehird> theoretically, the abstractions would be totally mismatched
06:31:03 <ehird> (and this would also lead to more bugs)
06:31:09 <ehird> (in the translation of the abstractions)
06:31:23 <ehird> now, if running it on top of windows was the only way to feasibly do it on modern computers?
06:31:28 <ehird> you bet i'd do it that way.
06:31:37 <ehird> same justification as why I'm using a regular platform
06:31:44 <ehird> instead of a superior high-level chip
06:31:53 <pikhq> mycroftiv: "Perfectly adequate", sure. So's Brainfuck.
06:32:01 <ehird> the fact is that our chips, internally, are fucking awful
06:32:08 <pikhq> That doesn't make it good, that just makes it Turing-complete.
06:32:11 <ehird> bloated piles of non-orthogonal shit, no coherent design philosophy,
06:32:14 <ehird> a bunch of 80s relics,
06:32:22 <ehird> and designed to run code from an imaginary language
06:32:22 <mycroftiv> pikhq: if someone had done the incredible amount of work to build a high level environment ON TOP of brainfuck, then brainfuck would be just fine - and isnt that the situation with our current chips?
06:32:26 <ehird> sort of a hybrid of C and crazy
06:32:35 <ehird> they really aren't "adequate", abstraction wise
06:32:40 <ehird> you seem to be a software guy
06:32:43 <ehird> so you might just not know this
06:32:48 <pikhq> mycroftiv: ... Someone has.
06:32:58 <ehird> mycroftiv: see, those layers are only required BECAUSE of the underlying system
06:33:04 <ehird> with a high-level chip, there would be far less layers
06:33:12 <pikhq> How's GCCBF going, anyways?
06:33:13 <mycroftiv> yup im 100% a software guy, thats why im kinda baffled by your perspective, because ive never had the hardware seem to interfere with anything i wanted to do
06:33:14 <ehird> and the only layers would be consistent, logical, sane ones directly related to the abstraction as hand
06:33:30 <ehird> not a leaning tower of pisa of mismatching abstractions and doing shit pointlessly in software
06:33:37 <pikhq> mycroftiv: It's primarily an issue for OS and compiler authors.
06:33:47 <mycroftiv> see, i guess i see software as *about* building abstractions
06:33:48 <pikhq> But it's a *very* important issue there.
06:33:57 <mycroftiv> i honestly want very little done *for* me - i want to build the abstractions myself!
06:33:59 <ehird> mycroftiv: see, we're using different definitions of abstraction
06:34:08 <ehird> When I refer to abstraction in a bad sense, I mean a pointless layer over something
06:34:13 <mycroftiv> ehird: that may well be true, abstraction is a pretty abstract concept
06:34:18 <ehird> as in, we have a perfectly good possibility for a layer X
06:34:24 <ehird> but instead, we take a distinctly inferior one X0
06:34:28 <ehird> and layer on top of it, X1
06:34:31 <pikhq> (other authors can build on top of the software that abstracts away most shitty things about the system)
06:34:34 <ehird> the combined system works basically as well as X
06:34:40 <ehird> but is klunky, distinctly inferior, almost certainly slower, ...
06:34:53 <ehird> that's the kind of bad "dystraction" we have in today's chips
06:35:36 <mycroftiv> pikhq: yes, and since we have done that work, and we have lots of compilers and languages available - havent we gotten past the 'hard part', so to speak?
06:35:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: look, same argument:
06:35:47 <ehird> why not build things on windows
06:35:53 <ehird> a lot of people have worked to build a whole system on top of it
06:35:57 <ehird> and there's a lot of stuff on it
06:36:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: let me know when you've switched to developing on windows.
06:36:34 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, im perfectly happy running plan 9 in qemu on windows, or using windows drawterm...so in that sense, im already there
06:36:46 <pikhq> mycroftiv: You don't *need* to care because of that work, but that doesn't make what you're using any better.
06:36:59 <pikhq> It just makes it more tolerable because you can pretend the bad shit isn't there.
06:37:02 <mycroftiv> pikhq: but the improvements can all be done at the upper layer
06:37:03 <ehird> i have a feeling there's no way I could demonstrate why chips are really really shitty without you turning into a lower level guy, mycroftiv
06:37:12 <pikhq> ... No, you can pretend that they have been done.
06:37:20 <ehird> and probably only with a better lisp chip in my hand, unless you get really serious about that sort of stuff
06:37:25 <ehird> alas that will not happen any time soon
06:37:28 <ehird> ASICs are expensive and such
06:37:31 <mycroftiv> ehird: i dont disagree that chips are shitty - but other people have done the hard work of making environments that allow *anything* to happen on top of them, without worrying about those layers
06:37:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: So fucking what? Why are these pointless layers so sacred?
06:37:54 <pikhq> mycroftiv, that *doesn't make the status quo any better*.
06:37:57 <ehird> If we don't need them, if we can do without them,
06:38:00 <pikhq> It just makes it tolerable.
06:38:03 <mycroftiv> ehird: they arent sacred, they just dont interfere with anything so far as i can tell
06:38:04 <ehird> If we can run faster, cooler running,
06:38:13 <ehird> More theoretically elegant chips,
06:38:15 <ehird> WITHOUT these layers
06:38:22 <ehird> then WHY do we see them as an argument in favour of the platform that has them?
06:38:24 <pikhq> "Don't interfere with anything"?
06:38:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: let me just tell you, they do interfere
06:38:40 <ehird> I'm dreading writing my OS
06:38:43 <mycroftiv> pikhq: well, i love this channel because normally im the critic of the status quo, advocating use of an OS most people cant stand
06:39:04 <ehird> x86_64 is like a personal vendetta against everything I want my OS to do
06:39:16 <ehird> and I have to fight it
06:39:17 <mycroftiv> ehird: how does the chip im using prevent me from writing whatever software i want? thats what i dont understand
06:39:22 <pikhq> ... If you'll note, C is still in use, because it's the best language for interacting directly with the hardware *we have* (... modulo the bloody string library).
06:39:28 <ehird> It doesn't, theoretically, mycroftiv.
06:39:32 <ehird> mycroftiv: stop using C
06:39:35 <ehird> start using machine language, directly
06:39:42 <ehird> It doesn't prevent you from writing whatever software you want
06:39:45 <mycroftiv> why would i want to throw away those layers?
06:39:46 <ehird> so why are you proposing this mystical... "C"?
06:39:50 <pikhq> mycroftiv: It doesn't prevent you, it just makes it a royal fucking pain to do certain things.
06:40:03 <pikhq> Like... Any operating system at all.
06:40:36 <pikhq> x86 OS development is significantly worse than Brainfuck coding. Brainfuck is at least consistent.
06:40:45 <ehird> if mycroftiv says the same thing again this conversation is officially killed by the hardware-based Stupid Looping Conversation Killer
06:41:14 <pikhq> x86 has pointers packed in structs by splitting the damned things into three chunks of different size.
06:41:35 * ehird resists the temptation to call his string type Bs for bytestring
06:41:36 <pikhq> (that is one of the *less* awful examples; dealing with that is at least a short function of bit twiddling)
06:41:41 <ehird> (str prefix is taken by stdlib :-P)
06:41:56 <mycroftiv> well, the whole conversation was based on a misunderstanding i guess - i thought we were talking about new chips enabling benefits for end users, by allowing for better software to be developed
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06:42:12 <mycroftiv> if the only question is the benefits to OS writers and compilers, i never would have had any questions or disagreements
06:42:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: I think that the end result is, perhaps not the actual software is better,
06:42:21 <pikhq> mycroftiv: It allows for better *operating systems* to be developed.
06:42:36 <mycroftiv> well, i believe better OSes == better software
06:42:41 <pikhq> And that has a tendency to make everything else run better because the OS is less bad.
06:42:55 <ehird> Runs better = smoother, with less crashes, less pointless layers, faster, ... AND IS MORE THEORETICALLY ELEGANT
06:43:04 <ehird> you say that "well, that's irrelevant because the other platform has extra layers"
06:43:13 <ehird> the point is that the alternative doesn't REQUIRE those layers
06:43:19 <mycroftiv> so, you think the reason modern OSes pretty much all suck is that the chips force them to, by forcing them to push C style semantics up into layers it doesnt belong?
06:43:20 <ehird> so that's not valid
06:43:26 <ehird> then add up theoretical elegance + the benefits?
06:43:34 <ehird> not entirely, though
06:43:47 <ehird> (did we ever say that?.)
06:43:54 <mycroftiv> no, im trying to understand what you mean
06:44:06 <mycroftiv> because im trying to formulate an expression of your thesis
06:44:14 <mycroftiv> which i have yet to really understand, hence all the questions
06:44:15 <ehird> IRC seems to me to be a fundamentally bad medium for debate.
06:44:31 <mycroftiv> bring on the broken beer bottles and spiked baseball bats in an alley!
06:44:43 <ehird> You have to rush to state your arguments, debate quickly goes off track with rapid-fire messages, it can get emotional due to the real-time nature, etc...
06:44:47 <mycroftiv> im ready for the procedural vs. functional rumble
06:44:56 <ehird> nobody likes procedural. :)
06:45:05 <ehird> you don't count as a person, then.
06:45:07 <mycroftiv> its the only model i actually have ever been able to learn to think in
06:45:15 <mycroftiv> everything else i have to 'force' my brain into
06:45:29 <mycroftiv> but 'follow a set of instructions in order, like following a recipe' - ive understood that since age 5
06:45:59 <ehird> it's a model suitable for trivial recipes
06:46:05 <ehird> and instructions to 5 year olds.
06:47:20 <mycroftiv> i actually started to learn church's lambda stuff at around that age also, because my grandfather taught math and he had a game called T U F that was a proof-making game you played with dice
06:47:32 <mycroftiv> and in retrospect, i realize it was actually teaching that
06:47:54 <ehird> this conversation is kinda going nowhere
06:48:20 <mycroftiv> sorry for trying to understand your ideas, my friend
06:48:25 <mycroftiv> not trying to be offensive about it
06:48:43 <ehird> when did I say anything about that
06:49:00 <ehird> I was just saying that, based on my whole-lifetime experience of this conversation, it's unlikely to lead anywhere
06:49:37 <mycroftiv> well, any time that you feel you have wasted, i offer to refund to you in whatever form you like
06:49:42 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Do you know Haskell?
06:50:08 <mycroftiv> pikhq: ive studied it and played with it a bit, i wouldnt presume to claim i 'know' it the same way i know the languages i do say i know
06:50:35 <mycroftiv> i just find it difficult to convert from the algorithms in my head to a haskell formulation
06:50:40 <pikhq> Though it's hard to pick up (simply due to being markedly different from everything else you likely know), it makes it rather easy (compared to just about anything else) to grok functional programming.
06:51:35 <mycroftiv> i study math as much as i can, and sadly my brain handles f(g(x)) ok, but then e(f(g(x))) - and its gone
06:52:15 <mycroftiv> and i find that it seems like you are supposed to be able to track even more x of y of z of alpha of beta..than that
06:52:29 <mycroftiv> so its a bit of a cognitive wall for me
06:52:35 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Instead of saying "int sum (int *array; int size) {int sum;for (int i = 0; i < size; i++) sum += array[i]; return sum;}", you just do "sum = map (+)"
06:52:51 <ehird> mycroftiv: maybe you should augment your memory :)
06:52:52 <pikhq> That is to say, you don't say *how* you do something, but rather *what you want done*.
06:53:11 <mycroftiv> i have my own library of that kind of stuff i wrote for myself in C
06:53:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: Figure this out:
06:53:27 <pikhq> Incidentally, "e . f . g" is not much harder than "f . g" ;)
06:53:31 <ehird> sum xs = fold (+) xs
06:53:42 <ehird> So, we have a list [1,2,3] right?
06:54:20 <ehird> mycroftiv: given the list [1,2,3], and addition, what syntactic change can we make to it to sum it?
06:54:26 <ehird> like, [1,2,3]; you have a + sign
06:54:31 <ehird> how do you turn it into the sum of [1,2,3]?
06:54:42 <pikhq> ... Also, "map (+)" is made of fail. That makes a list of functions, and... Yeah. Totally wrong.
06:55:21 <mycroftiv> are you just talking about fold (+) [1, 2, 3] ?
06:55:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: I'm trying to explain folding in terms of functional languages
06:55:48 <ehird> as in, how you model operations non-iteratively
06:55:56 <ehird> you can make syntactic changes to it
06:56:14 <ehird> what transformation do you do to [1,2,3] using + to turn it into the sum?
06:56:23 <ehird> you get rid of the brackets
06:56:26 <ehird> and replace , by +
06:56:34 <ehird> that's, basically, what fold does
06:56:42 <ehird> product is fold (*), then
06:57:00 <ehird> fold itself is built as a recursive function
06:57:06 <ehird> but in high level haskell, you don't generall recurse
06:57:13 <mycroftiv> why are you explaining these basics to me? im not ignorant, i just said my brain doesnt seem to naturally think in functional terms
06:57:17 <ehird> you use simple combinators like that to build up a transformation of data
06:57:24 <ehird> mycroftiv: It's not what fold is itself
06:57:29 <ehird> That's not what I'm trying to get across
06:57:36 <ehird> I'm trying to get across how to apply the functional mindset to it all
06:58:42 <mycroftiv> do you know the borges story "Tlon, Uqbar, Orbit Tertius" ?
06:59:16 <mycroftiv> well, to cut directly to the point - alternate universe where people dont think in nouns, they only think in verbs/perceptions
06:59:41 <mycroftiv> when i learned about functional programming it was like that story had come to life and i was amazed
06:59:44 <ehird> that's the opposite of functional programming, really
06:59:51 <ehird> functional programming is all about the data
07:00:26 <pikhq> Imperative programming is a series of verbs.
07:00:38 <ehird> The internet is a series of verbs.
07:01:27 <pikhq> Functional programming is, ultimately, a piece of data, and what you write is transformations on other pieces of data in order to arrive at your final piece of data.
07:01:37 <pikhq> Oh, and functions themselves are data.
07:01:50 <pikhq> (which, of course, means you can do transformations on your functions)
07:02:03 <mycroftiv> i absolutely believe lisp has the best and clearest model of programming
07:02:51 <ehird> he never said lisp
07:02:54 <pikhq> ... Lisp is a hacky and low-level language, in my estimation.
07:02:58 <ehird> common lisp in fact is not a functional programming language in the slightest.
07:03:09 <ehird> "yes," doesn't follow then
07:03:16 <ehird> i'm doing fun stuff!
07:03:19 <ehird> you will see soon.
07:03:54 <mycroftiv> 'functions themselves are data' was the sole referent of 'yes, i do love lisp' - by which i meant 'i agree that the model where functions are data is the best, based on my appreciation of lisp'
07:04:45 <ehird> I am warming more to lisp lately
07:04:50 <mycroftiv> see i dont want you guys to think that i dont *agree* with you - im just more skeptical that the Data Paradise can actually be brought about
07:04:52 <ehird> a bastardised, ehird lisp
07:05:00 <ehird> but a lisp nonetheless
07:05:13 <pikhq> mycroftiv, it was done a few decades ago.
07:05:18 <ehird> mycroftiv: I have modelled actions successfully in my domain
07:05:19 <mycroftiv> i *agree* with all the stuff you say, but i think that even if you make better chips and OSes and everything...software will still probably mostly suck
07:05:20 <pikhq> Are you familiar with Lisp machines?
07:05:24 <ehird> they have turned out succ—
07:05:30 <ehird> they still had filesystems
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07:05:39 <ehird> (which stored the code files)
07:05:42 <pikhq> ehird: True. Still...
07:05:43 <mycroftiv> pikhq: not personally, ive just read about them, i grew up on the home computers of the 80s starting in 1980 and i never had any access to anything else
07:06:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: the whole point of my OS is that I think I know how to make software not suck
07:06:10 <ehird> as a fundamental model
07:06:13 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Less suck than modern OSes.
07:06:56 <mycroftiv> pikhq: since i hate all modern OSes except plan 9, no argument from me on that.
07:07:07 <ehird> plan 9 is still loatheful
07:07:27 <mycroftiv> ehird: no way, it has namespaces, which are Just Exactly Right, imo
07:07:38 <ehird> disk/ram namespaces are separate
07:07:56 <mycroftiv> you can build your namespace however you want
07:07:57 <ehird> if you think they aren't
07:08:01 <pikhq> That's kinda the C model.
07:08:02 <ehird> you misunderstood my comment entirely.,
07:08:16 <mycroftiv> in plan 9 your namespace knows nothing about ram vs disk
07:08:17 <ehird> also, the functions in the OS are distinctly inferior to the functions in the language
07:08:20 <ehird> being untyped affairs
07:08:23 <ehird> mycroftiv: no, no, listen
07:08:34 <ehird> it has in-memory addresses
07:08:40 <ehird> foo->bar->baz in C
07:08:43 <ehird> and it has filesystem addresses
07:08:52 <ehird> these two concepts being distinct is evil
07:09:05 <ehird> and a cause of many, many woes present in computing today
07:09:26 <mycroftiv> thats not what namespaces are in plan 9 though, we are at different layers, as usual
07:09:32 <ehird> we're at same layers
07:09:36 <ehird> you are just using different definitions
07:09:47 <ehird> and trying to rebut the arguments I made with my definitions, with yours...
07:09:57 <mycroftiv> im using namespace as defined/used in the context of the plan 9 operating system and its manpages, thats all
07:10:29 <mycroftiv> simply talking about its implementation of per-process namespaces, which is a great feature - i totally agree that ultimately the different modes of addressing data between filesystem and programming languages is Bad
07:10:29 <pikhq> And he's discussing from a programming perspective, not from the perspective of someone using, say, rc.
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07:10:46 <ehird> if plan 9 just had rc and C i could respect it
07:10:55 <ehird> though it'd be shit, as all it'd have would be weakling string types.
07:11:04 <ehird> ...there's a reason c has a richer type system :)
07:11:12 <mycroftiv> pikhq: i program plan 9 in C, i understand the point he is making
07:11:15 <pikhq> ehird: Weakling string types doesn't necessarily make for a bad language. See Tcl.
07:11:24 <ehird> pikhq: we will have to strongly disagree.
07:11:57 <pikhq> (... Though, Tcl does it via magic, so it's not exactly a *grand* language. And that's probably about as good as you can get while retaining "everything is a string".)
07:12:16 <ehird> rc is a nice language. for scripting.
07:12:22 <ehird> uh, wouldn't want to program a whole system in it.
07:12:33 <ehird> yet the "language" of plan 9 has exactly the same semantics, and it still has C
07:12:41 <ehird> ... no coincidence: C's semantics are, in fact, nicer to code in
07:12:45 <ehird> than the language of Plan 9's
07:12:51 <ehird> and its separate namespace hierarchy
07:12:58 <ehird> with silly, untyped strings
07:13:38 <mycroftiv> ehird: you arent using vocabulary in the way plan 9 does, so its very hard for me to parse your statement...
07:13:53 <ehird> i wasn't aware plan 9 brainwashed its adherents :)
07:14:04 <ehird> namespace: a space containing identifiers
07:14:11 <ehird> e.g. in C, a->b->c is a member of its namespace
07:14:19 <pikhq> He's using it the way anyone sane (and most insane people) use it.
07:14:25 <ehird> in Plan 9, /a/b/c would be an example
07:14:25 <mycroftiv> all along, i was trying to talk about namespaces in the specific plan 9 sense, that is all
07:14:38 <ehird> Plan 9's is distinctly inferior because:
07:14:41 <mycroftiv> pikhq: yes, but in plan 9, 'namespaces' have a much more OS context specific meaning, which is what i was trying to talk about
07:14:52 <ehird> the names can only identify typeless strings of bytes
07:15:02 <ehird> C's namespace can identify all sorts of richer things
07:15:12 <ehird> rc is an example of a language built around the semantics of Plan 9's namespaces
07:15:20 <ehird> C is an example of a language built around the semantics of C's namespaces
07:15:32 <ehird> there's a reason why most of plan 9 is written in C, not rc: C is nicer for non-scripting things
07:15:38 <ehird> and this is because of its richer namespace.
07:15:53 <ehird> in my OS, there is only one namespace, and it is a rich, object-based one, like Smalltalk
07:17:46 <pikhq> (exception: Forth. (but there be dragons there, and you can pretend that that is entirely imaginary))
07:18:08 <ehird> pikhq: I'm not referring to the languages
07:18:18 <ehird> and forth is basically a bootloader in my os :P
07:18:29 <ehird> the thing is that most languages are both a namespace and a language based on that namespace
07:18:29 <pikhq> Tiny bit more complicated than a bootloader.
07:18:38 <ehird> with plan 9 it's separate: namespace:plan 9, language:rc
07:18:42 <ehird> so it's harder to discuss it
07:18:44 <pikhq> I guess the closest thing it would be (and it's not exactly *close*) is a kernel?
07:18:47 <ehird> because people don't see it as a language
07:18:52 <ehird> it's not centralised anything
07:18:56 <ehird> it just executes the upper code
07:19:07 <ehird> no hardware or anything
07:19:19 <ehird> it doesn't have a name in the common vernacular. :)
07:19:42 <pikhq> Like I said, it's not exactly close.
07:21:03 <ehird> pikhq: my secret project, by the way, is an IRC bot scriptable in C
07:21:21 <ehird> you can do !eval say(channels[0], "hello world")
07:21:27 <ehird> it turns out that gcc -c is fast
07:21:37 <ehird> so kinda-JITting C is perfectly possible
07:21:40 <ehird> as long as you don't link
07:21:59 <ehird> ...but also some fun other stuff.
07:27:15 <ehird> ofc, I have to somehow open this object file without linking it
07:27:21 <ehird> which could be uh tricky
07:28:34 <ehird> ooh, linking a shared lib is actually fast
07:29:02 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/cbot] % time ./dynamic '2' >/dev/null
07:29:02 <ehird> ./dynamic '2' > /dev/null 0.02s user 0.02s system 94% cpu 0.048 total
07:29:56 <ehird> now all I have to do is implement a dlopen that latches on to another process so I can access the bot from the snippet...
07:48:10 <ehird> % ./dynamic 'int j;for(int i=0;i<1000;i+=3)j+=i;j'
07:48:14 <ehird> yep, that... works
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18:34:05 <oerjan> yet another weariness noun
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19:51:44 <oerjan> ding, dong, the channel's dead
19:52:38 * coppro ding's the channel's don
19:53:16 <oerjan> you donna wanna messa with the channel's don
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23:54:00 <coppro> I think I just noticed the subletest joke I've ever noticed in a Discworld book
00:00:35 <oerjan> subletting is not usually a joking matter
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00:05:25 <oerjan> although come to think of it you could probably base a sitcom on it
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01:19:24 <ehird> 11:52:38 * coppro ding's the channel's don
01:19:25 <ehird> 11:52:40 <coppro> *dong
01:19:25 <ehird> this channel is pg-13.
01:20:00 <coppro> your fault for interpreting it rudely then
01:22:25 <ehird> protip: "this channel is pg-13" is a personal meme.
01:22:43 <ehird> also, "dinging the channel's dong" is hard to interpret in any way other than (a) sexual, (b) nonsense
01:24:54 <oerjan> ehird: wait, you're 14 now
01:25:12 <coppro> I'm pretty sure that, by definition, a personal meme is impossible
01:25:23 <oerjan> well but we should be able to advance to pg-14
01:25:25 <ehird> coppro: I use it a lot to mean one thing as a recurring gag, the intention is that other people in-the-know will laugh at it
01:25:28 <ehird> but nobody elses uses it
01:25:37 <ehird> oerjan: I advanced on your mom last night
01:25:41 <puzzlet> coppro: take it as a paraphrase to catchphrase
01:25:49 <ehird> she reminded me of the restraining order
01:25:56 <ehird> oerjan: that's just how bad I am
01:26:00 <ehird> dead people get restraining orders against me
01:27:16 <oerjan> now if we make it _european_ pg-13 then dongs are probably fine but i'll have to stop with the swatter
01:27:53 <ehird> oerjan: isn't the analogy only appropriate if we replace the swatter with like
01:28:00 <ehird> an automatic swatter bomb gun
01:28:10 <ehird> (it's pretty hard to make swatters dangerous)
01:29:28 <oerjan> well what about the saucepan then
01:36:32 <ehird> oerjan: has anyone been hurt for more than 5 minutes with it
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01:43:57 <GregorR> ehird: Add either citric or phosphoric acid to your swig ingest drink.
01:44:07 <GregorR> Getting the pH down = ultra-important.
01:44:20 <ehird> GregorR: Did you drink it or something
01:44:33 <ehird> I want to know wtf sparked this XD
01:44:34 <GregorR> No, but I'm realizing from my own experiments that getting the pH down = hyperimportant :P
01:44:48 <ehird> But I want it to be smooth and unassuming :-(
01:44:54 <ehird> I wanna know what happened :P
01:45:05 <GregorR> "Happened"? Nothing happened *shrugs*
01:45:17 <GregorR> I just made it with citric acid and it's a huge improvement.
01:45:39 <ehird> it = swig ingest drink?
01:46:10 <ehird> What's yours made of
01:46:31 <GregorR> Presently: sugar and extracts of vanilla, peppermint and almond.
01:47:08 <ehird> How did adding citric acid change it
01:47:46 <GregorR> It's hard to describe ... the flavor is a bit more citrusy (duh), but it's the mouthfeel that improved substantially.
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05:56:39 <ehird> "Hey Google, if I search the word review, I do not want pages containing reviews or reviewing."
05:56:45 <ehird> Figure A, an insane person.
06:00:48 <Sgeo_> When I search "undressing", I don't want "dress"
06:01:22 <ehird> Sgeo finds porn by searching for "female humans undressing".
06:01:24 <puzzlet> maybe searching +review would help?
06:02:34 <ehird> puzzlet: they quote it
06:02:37 <ehird> but they're still insane
06:03:03 <ehird> who searches "laptop review" and doesn't want to see "laptop reviews" or "a video of $person reviewing laptops"?
06:03:54 <puzzlet> maybe he's looking for a review exactly entitled "laptop review"
06:04:17 <ehird> he's talking in general
06:04:25 <ehird> he never wants to have "Xs" and "Xing" included
06:04:34 <ehird> and from the tone of the sentence... seems to think that nobody sane would want this
06:05:11 <ehird> some guy on reddit.
06:05:18 <ehird> i was just pointing out he's insane :P
06:06:02 <puzzlet> so you're saying you're pretend to be insane or ..
06:06:55 <puzzlet> well maybe i'm not good at catching the behind context
06:07:37 <puzzlet> some guy on reddit says insane thing
06:08:12 <puzzlet> and you are ... ignoring him
06:08:33 <Sgeo_> How many language->language tools exist
06:08:34 <ehird> i'm ignoring him apart from mentioning it as funny
06:08:41 <ehird> Sgeo_: also, all compilers.
06:08:52 <Sgeo_> I know of two Python->JS tools, and now I learn there's a Python->Perl tool
06:10:27 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should have asked language->high-level language.. But then that includes BF->C compilers..
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06:58:11 <ehird> at(1) doesn't appear to work here...
06:58:33 <ehird> heh, it's never executed any jobs
06:58:52 <ehird> IMPLEMENTATION NOTES
06:58:52 <ehird> Note that at is implemented through the launchd(8) daemon periodically invoking atrun(8), which is disabled by default. See atrun(8) for information about enabling atrun.
07:01:21 <ehird> you see, [[while true; do xsetroot -name "$(date '+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M')"; sleep 5; done]] is terribly wasteful and inaccurate
07:02:46 <ehird> [[update() { xsetroot -name "$(date '+%Y-%m-%d %H:%M')" }; update; sleep $((60 - $(date +%S))); while true; do update; sleep 60; done]] should do it.
07:30:02 <ehird> exec $(cat ~/.histfile | dmenu -l <lines>)
07:30:06 <ehird> (w/ dmenu-vertical patch)
07:31:23 <ehird> wish it supported non-linear searching
07:31:40 <ehird> like 'fir awesome' matching 'firefox http://awesome.com'
07:31:49 <ehird> guess I'll write it
07:33:13 <ehird> problem is "google" might match "go http://foo.com/?g=l;e=f"
07:33:21 <ehird> maybe I'll add points for consecutive strings
07:33:35 <ehird> like, that would get 2+1+1+1 = 5 points
07:33:47 <ehird> but "firefox http://google.com" would get 6
07:34:01 <ehird> ignore me, I'm on drugs
07:34:24 <ehird> (the drug of idiocy)
07:34:33 <ehird> how can i reward consecutiveness, I wonder
07:36:14 <ehird> maybe, considering one block, variable "factor"; 1 is "all chars from string in block"; 0 is "one char from string in block"
07:36:18 <ehird> i.e., 100/percentageofstring
07:36:47 <ehird> firefox → f, f, x, separate blocks
07:37:57 <ehird> (we add one to factor, ofc)
07:38:19 <ehird> so that's 3+16 = 19 points
07:38:38 <ehird> vs g http://foo.com?g=l;e=f
07:38:56 <ehird> "g http://foo.com?g=l;e=x;f=r"
07:40:23 <ehird> ... which is 19 >_<
07:40:36 <ehird> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait
07:41:33 <ehird> so it's 3+9.6 = 12.6 points on the first
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08:00:06 <Warrigal> Silly Omegle prank: connect to three users A, B and C. Relay messages from A to B, from B to A, from A to C, and from C to A.
08:00:43 <Warrigal> B will say something, A will respond, C will see it, and confusion will ensue.
08:01:15 <ehird> You can do that with one chain.
08:03:44 <ehird> Warrigal: wait, no, that's equivalent to A and B together :P
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08:55:07 <ehird> GregorR: i've formulated a soda for you to make next
08:55:09 <ais523> wow, you're here early, as am I
08:55:26 <ehird> mix carbonated water, caffeine, and a shitload of Fisherman's Friend lozenges
08:55:35 <ehird> then, don't drink it because you can't possibly handle it
08:55:46 <ehird> ais523: well, I haven't slept; I'm on reverse monophasic
08:55:52 <ehird> I sleep for about 8 hours in the day
08:55:55 <ais523> fair enough, I get there sometimes
08:56:01 <ais523> in fact, I've been there most of the holiday
08:56:14 <ehird> it's quite nice, actually; I psychologically view the daysleep as taking a nap rather than going to bed
08:56:17 <ais523> but I've decided that 8pm - 4am is probably about the best sleep period, and I'm sort-of deliberately aiming for it nowadays
08:56:18 <ehird> which is easier to do
08:56:40 <ehird> and I get a sort of "I'm staying up all night!" dim rush
08:56:47 <ehird> which makes me happier
08:56:56 <ehird> ais523: 8pm - 4am? that's a very strange sleep schedul
08:57:13 <ehird> I couldn't possibly sleep at 8pm
08:57:37 <ehird> also, strangely, a day or two ago the following happened:
08:57:44 <ehird> woke up from sleep at around 10pm
08:57:44 <ais523> ehird: you could if you'd woken up at 4am consistently, I suspect
08:57:51 <ehird> stayed up until the next day
08:57:58 <ehird> it's day now and I didn't really feel like sleeping
08:58:09 <ehird> I get to about 10am
08:58:28 <ais523> ehird: ah, when I wake up at 10pm, I generally wake all night and sleep some time the next morning
08:58:30 <ehird> how come I missed a day and was only mildly sleepy?
08:58:39 <ehird> ais523: right; I skipped the sleep somehow
08:58:42 <ehird> until the morning after
08:59:22 <ehird> ais523: how do you rank my fisherman's friend drink idea from -100 to -50?
08:59:31 <ehird> [08:55] ehird: mix carbonated water, caffeine, and a shitload of Fisherman's Friend lozenges
08:59:31 <ehird> [08:55] ehird: then, don't drink it because you can't possibly handle it
08:59:49 <ehird> (liquidize them first ofc)
09:00:43 <ehird> I wonder if there are any mints stronger than fisherman's friend
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09:30:57 <ehird> "Companies building java software are no better than scam artists."
09:30:58 <ehird> uriel really deserves a fortune database of his own; maybe name it "idiot"
09:32:20 <ais523> wait, that's a weird quote
09:32:33 <ais523> if they were hired to produce java software in the first place, how is it a scam?
09:32:43 <ehird> ais523: because java sucks, or something
09:34:03 <ehird> good things about uriel: uses plan 9. bad things about uriel: free-market nutjob (think cato institute), hates every piece of software pretty much ad hominem, without attacking their actual flaws, repulsively barbaric attitude in anything he says (to the point of impossibility of arguing with him at all), etc
09:36:00 <ehird> http://harmful.cat-v.org/ is a big ol' pile of lol; topics include "Fair trade is evil", "Minimum wage is evil", "Children are super-evil and if you have a child you're a psychologically fucked up egotist", "Gay marriage is evil because having 'marriage' be a convenient shorthand for 'a contract of a certain type' is evil", "Sweden sucks and is undemocratic", and that's ignoring the huge software section
09:37:15 <ehird> oh, and though I can't find it on his site, "healthcare: the solution is to regulate them less. then they can pull off more and so will behave better"
09:37:35 <ehird> laissez-faire never ceases to amuse
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10:02:13 <ehird> stood and standing that you would?
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10:04:54 <ais523> ehird: an attack on Sweden in particular seems weird
10:05:04 <ehird> ais523: he's swedish.
10:05:30 <ehird> totally not a coincidence, though! he's clearly rationally examined this... like he does with everything else?
10:05:52 <ehird> "the single party system"
10:05:56 <ehird> He's simply deluding himself
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10:34:36 * ehird wonders how small he could get a purist R5RS scheme implementation in C
10:34:45 <ehird> let me bet... 1,000 lines
10:34:50 <ehird> for the library, eh
10:37:18 <ehird> ais523: do you think it's safe using the 4 top bits of a 32-bit int?
10:37:23 <ehird> a pointer malloc just gave me was 21 bits
10:37:47 <ais523> no, I don't think so; IIRC malloc starts low but gets higher the more memory you're using
10:37:55 <ehird> it feels much less safe than relying on malloc()'s lsb to be 0
10:38:25 <ais523> and 1/16 of 4GB is 256MB
10:38:30 <ais523> and I can easily imagine a program using more than that
10:38:42 <ehird> ais523: the lowest infringing pointer is 268435456
10:38:49 <ehird> which is much larger than I've ever seen
10:39:12 <ais523> ehird: if you allocate more than 256MB of memory, at least one pointer will have to be that high
10:39:22 <ehird> just would be nice to store it all in the pointer and not worry about it
10:39:31 <ais523> the use of '@ confused me for a while
10:39:45 <ehird> what does that do?
10:39:47 <ais523> if you feel /really evil/, store everything in a long double
10:39:50 <ehird> apart from multiply a lot
10:39:55 <ais523> ehird: pushes the ASCII code of @ onto the stack, which is 64
10:40:03 <ehird> ais523: no, I don't feel evil; I'm trying to be as simple as possible here
10:40:05 <ais523> and the code in general is working out 2^28
10:40:21 <ehird> putting the tag in the pointer would be the simplest way; unfortunately it looks like it won't work
10:40:23 <Deewiant> 28::::::::********* if you don't like '@
10:40:35 <ehird> maybe I'll preallocate a pool of memory
10:40:39 <ais523> Deewiant: 28::*:::******
10:40:53 <ehird> that'd still have to be like 256mb
10:40:54 <Deewiant> ais523: Sure, that's just what my program gives :-P
10:41:08 <ais523> you have a Befunge constants program?
10:41:39 <Deewiant> I should have made it a few years ago, would have saved me some time with Mycology :-P
10:42:35 <ehird> http://cca.org/dave/tech/machine.html
10:42:36 <ehird> AKJSdhsdkjghdkfhgskdfjhgtoibsjofgpdgmkj hkfdjgh
10:42:37 <ehird> holy fuck want so much
10:42:52 <ehird> my inner buddha came out to dissuade me, then saw it and immediately inverted itself
10:43:07 <ehird> i now have an all-consuming materialist desire for that object.
10:43:37 <ehird> ais523: I'm not going to answer that, because you have a program that can tell you that requires less work and less irritation of people.
10:43:58 <ais523> meh, I can't be bothered to understand the context of your discussions, then
10:44:15 <ehird> I find it hard to believe that you can't just click to open the page
10:44:33 <ehird> and if you actually cared, you wouldn't make a deal out of it wrt "look at me, I'm unable to click links"
10:50:07 <ehird> hey, they guy who made that page coined the term eternal september
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11:16:46 <oerjan> <GregorR> It's hard to describe ... the flavor is a bit more citrusy (duh), but it's the mouthfeel that improved substantially.
11:16:57 <oerjan> it's that slight flavor of dissolving teeth
11:18:27 <Deewiant> ais523: That turned out to be a simple optimization, 288:*:*:*** is what comes out now
11:18:41 <ais523> reminds me of Underload a lot
11:18:49 <ais523> with chaining together : and * to make numbers
11:20:08 <Deewiant> Well, typically there's + too, that was just a power of 2 :-P
11:20:52 <ais523> multiplication's a lot easier than addition in underload
11:21:11 <ais523> addition is something like ((:)~*(*)*)~^^
11:21:30 <ais523> ^ul (::::****)(::::::******)((:)~*(*)*)~^^S
11:21:31 <fungot> :::::::::::***********
11:22:10 <ais523> you're off-by-one in attempting to parse Underload numbers
11:22:56 <ehird> I was going to say something
11:23:18 <oerjan> <ehird> he never wants to have "Xs" and "Xing" included
11:23:40 <oerjan> i _do_ sometimes get annoyed by google being a bit too clever at second-guessing me
11:24:00 <oerjan> and thus including exactly what i try to avoid
11:27:51 <oerjan> <ehird> Warrigal: wait, no, that's equivalent to A and B together :P
11:28:04 <oerjan> that's essentially conway game subtraction iirc
11:28:26 <ehird> it's obvious that B linking A and B is identical to A and B talking
11:28:36 <ehird> B linking A to B to C isn't equal to anything but that
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11:30:32 <oerjan> linking yourself into it means you'll actually have to come up with conversation :D
11:31:49 <oerjan> <ehird> mix carbonated water, caffeine, and a shitload of Fisherman's Friend lozenges <-- are we trying to test just exactly how far GregorR_ is from human now?
11:32:00 <ehird> I've gotta do that, actually
11:32:09 <ehird> I might throw up afterwards, though
11:32:23 <ehird> or at least need to spend a day fasting and drinking salt water to cleanse it out
11:32:56 <oerjan> at least you should have a clear throat
11:33:12 <ehird> my throat clearness might wrap around
11:33:30 <oerjan> that could be a problem
11:35:45 <oerjan> <ehird> I wonder if there are any mints stronger than fisherman's friend
11:35:52 <oerjan> of course not. strongest there is.
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11:37:46 <oerjan> might even be true, since if it wasn't, the competition could sue them for false advertising
11:37:58 <ehird> i think other brands do it too
11:38:06 <ehird> "strongest there is" is so vague to be meaningless
11:38:20 <ehird> they could argue "well it feels punchier than the others even though it isn't actually stronger", etc
11:38:23 <ehird> that's marketing for you
11:38:46 <ehird> anyway, i propose calling my drink: Fisherman's Fiend
11:39:26 <ehird> hm, would it cause a diet coke and mentos-type explosion?
11:39:35 <ehird> since the carb water + caffeine isn't "diet"
11:39:39 <ehird> and i guess it's in the name for a reason
11:42:50 <oerjan> heh, pfizer _did_ get smacked down in norway for stealing that slogan for one of its pills, and not being able to document it was true
11:43:18 <ehird> but that's not a confectionary
11:52:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwc (just connected to bouncer from university)
11:52:23 <AnMaster> though I don't get the broom reference
11:54:09 <oerjan> dammit he removed the links to the other sites on the top
11:55:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: "sweeping under the rug"
11:57:07 <ehird> it's not hard to proof-read a four-frame comic
11:59:53 <oerjan> ehird: he _did_ mention he had little time that week ;D
12:00:19 <fizzie> This is related to earlier things, but in the Scheme compiler I wrote recently I did put everything in the pointer; but that was for x86-64, which has 64-bit pointers even though the current hardware only has 48 address lines, so it's quite safe.
12:00:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, not future proof in any way
12:01:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus, doesn't the spec say they *have
12:01:10 <ehird> oerjan: accounting for the buffer?
12:01:19 <ehird> fizzie: right, with 54-bit it's fine
12:01:48 <ehird> AnMaster: 64-bit is 16,777,216 terabytes
12:02:02 <ehird> so fuck off with the "future proof" bullshit
12:02:09 <ehird> it's just irritating
12:02:24 <AnMaster> ehird, however, No one will ever need more than 32 bits. A whopping 4 GB RAM? Never.
12:02:27 <fizzie> The sign-extension doesn't really matter; I mean, there's a sign-extending shift operation and everything. (And anyway I'm dealing with user-land pointers only, which have the sign bit set to zero.)
12:04:52 <fizzie> Besides, I do a fixed-address mmap for my memory, so it's "future-proof" in some sense (though not portable at all), in that it won't stop working, it's just limited to some 64 petabytes of addressable space.
12:05:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: Comments on a Postcard :D
12:06:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Let's say that you manage, by force of pure magic, to fit a megabyte in ONE ANGSTROM.
12:06:18 <ehird> AnMaster: The whole 64-bit address space would take up 1,119 miles, with nothing between the megabytes.
12:06:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Such colossal, colossal storage in the future - and you believe these will use today's 64-bit processors running on today's operating systems?
12:06:53 <ehird> AnMaster: And, in fact, our current stuff does less.
12:06:55 <oerjan> ehird: one cubic angstrom, surely? ;D
12:06:59 <ehird> For instance, all addresses are even.
12:07:17 <ehird> Some of the top bits are reserved for internal amd64 stuff, I forget how much
12:07:21 <ehird> So subdivide it even more
12:07:25 <ehird> The hardware is ALREADY limited
12:07:38 <ehird> And current physical constraints much, much moreso.
12:08:00 <ehird> CALLING USING THE UPPER BITS OF A 64-BIT POINTER "NOT FUTURE PROOF" is... just unbelievably retarded.
12:08:15 <ehird> So please, shut up.
12:08:53 <oerjan> `calc 2^64 cubic angstrom in cubic meters
12:08:54 <HackEgo> (2^64) (cubic angstrom) = 1.84467441 10^-11 cubic meters
12:09:29 <oerjan> `calc 2^64 cubic angstrom in cubic millimeters
12:09:30 <HackEgo> (2^64) (cubic angstrom) = 0.0184467441 cubic millimeters
12:09:48 <ehird> oerjan: sure thing then. i'm eagerly awaiting your megabyte-in-cubic-armstrong technology
12:09:58 <ehird> somehow I don't think the laws of physics are on your side.
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12:10:07 <ehird> fizzie: if I was doing 64-bit only I wouldn't even think about it
12:10:13 <fizzie> I'm actually using the lowest byte (it's easier to test for types, since the least significant byte of x86-64 registers is independently accessible, and a single "sar rn, 8" makes a suitably sign-extended pointer out of it), to be a pedant.
12:10:27 <ehird> comes out to the same thing
12:10:37 <oerjan> ehird: i am merely pointing out that putting things on a line rather than in a volume is disingenious
12:10:40 <fizzie> Sure, but you said "top".
12:10:47 <ehird> oerjan: I didn't think properly
12:10:49 <ehird> but it doesn't matter
12:11:01 <ehird> a far more reasonable thing would be, say, "4 bytes in an angstrom"
12:11:12 <ehird> even that would be extremely lucky...
12:11:53 <oerjan> ehird: oh wait, you said megabyte? i calculated for single bytes ;D
12:12:24 <ehird> shrug - show your tech
12:12:46 <ehird> you can fit a whole byte in an angstrom somehow, and bunch this right up against other bytes with no instability?
12:12:48 <oerjan> _you_ brought up the example
12:12:50 <ehird> and observe and modify the values?
12:13:09 <ehird> oerjan: I was just trying to explain how colossally huge 64-bit is
12:13:37 <oerjan> `calc 2^64 square angstrom in square millimeters
12:13:38 <HackEgo> (2^64) (square angstrom) = 184 467.441 square millimeters
12:13:49 <oerjan> `calc 2^64 square angstrom in square meters
12:13:50 <HackEgo> (2^64) (square angstrom) = 0.184467441 square meters
12:14:05 <oerjan> 2D is a bit harder to fit
12:14:19 <fizzie> One 32-bit Scheme I've seen took two bits out of 32-bit values; you can quite reasonably (it might even be preferrable) align everything on a dword boundary, so they used the two lowest bits to get 30-bit inline integers, tags for two of the most popular pointery types (symbols and pairs, I think) and a third "pointer to some other type" value, where the other types had a type byte in front of the actual value in memory.
12:14:38 <ehird> oerjan: 64-bit address space in 18 centimeters?
12:14:47 <ehird> stack it up higher than a single angstrom :P
12:14:53 <ehird> little cube of near-infinite capacity!
12:14:59 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: Comments on a Postcard :D <-- indeed
12:14:59 <ehird> with a little USB connector poking out of it
12:15:29 <ehird> fizzie: aligning sounds nice
12:15:40 <ehird> fizzie: but I really need 4-bits to fit every disjoint scheme type
12:15:46 <ehird> fizzie: oh, more, in fact
12:15:50 <ehird> for the different numeric types
12:16:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Such colossal, colossal storage in the future - and you believe these will use today's 64-bit processors running on today's operating systems? <-- no, but what about 48 bits? How much would that be? What about extending to, say, 50 bits?
12:16:29 <fizzie> Yes, well, the more complicated numbers need more complicated storage formats in memory; you can put their more-detailed-type information there.
12:16:39 <ehird> fizzie: right, but it's nice to have one simple type predicate
12:16:43 <ehird> otherwise i'd just have lower bit 1 = fixnum
12:16:47 <ehird> anything else = pointer
12:16:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Less. Does fizzie's interp use that many tag bits? No.
12:17:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Does amd64 reserve bits anyway? Yes.
12:17:15 <AnMaster> anyway the sign bit is used for user vs. kernel space iirc
12:17:20 <ehird> Really. Today's systems.
12:17:32 <ehird> Such vast memory spaces ... will not be used by today's processors.
12:17:42 <ehird> it's... ugh, why do I bother, you're stupid
12:17:42 <fizzie> Yes, and I manipulate only user-space pointers, *plus* I sign-extend the values, so I don't see why the sign bit would be relevant.
12:17:57 <ehird> fizzie: it's not future proof and it's bad and you should feel bad.
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12:18:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I do have 56-bit pointers; that's good for the next two reasonable address space increases (48 → 52, 52 → 56).
12:19:59 <ehird> fizzie: hey, all of the numeric types fit in the 4 bits
12:20:22 <AnMaster> well http://pastebin.ca/1545691
12:20:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, according to that the hardware checks that the addresses are correct. But seems it isn't true?
12:21:03 <fizzie> Huh? I sign-extend before use.
12:21:14 <fizzie> Certainly you can put any 64 bits in a register if you don't use them for memory-referencing.
12:21:16 <ais523> wow, there's a Game of Life implementation that computed 6 octillion generations of a Game of Life pattern in under 30 seconds
12:21:22 <ais523> not all of them, presumably, just the 6-octillionth
12:21:34 <ehird> can you write that out?
12:21:49 <ais523> well, 6,366,548,773,467,669,985,195,496,000 was the exact number
12:21:59 <ais523> it doesn't compute one generation at a time
12:22:04 <ehird> he'll have read it in a newspaper
12:22:08 <ehird> after all he doesn't use t he wb
12:22:09 <ais523> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashlife explains it
12:22:16 <ehird> ais523: you're serious?
12:22:20 <ehird> we're meant to get excited about hashlife?
12:22:23 <ehird> you haven't heard of it before?
12:22:31 <ais523> no, but it's still exciting
12:22:34 <ais523> I mean, you did get excited
12:22:38 <ais523> even though it's old news
12:22:45 <ehird> I didn't grasp the scale of the number
12:22:53 <ehird> and your tone excited me by proxy
12:23:02 <ais523> besides, I think the speeds attained with it are relatively recent
12:23:06 <ais523> even if the algorithm isn't
12:23:10 <ais523> that picture was uploaded in June
12:23:16 <ehird> yes, but is from Golly
12:23:20 <ehird> which has existed for years
12:23:43 <ais523> heh, I like out-of-date info, it's more fun than the nonsense we get nowadays
12:24:08 <AnMaster> "6,366,548,773,467,669,985,195,496,000 (6 octillion) generations of a very complicated Game of Life pattern computed in less than 30 seconds on an Intel Duo 2GHz CPU using hashlife in Golly."
12:24:13 <fizzie> Around here 6 octillion (okay, "oktiljoona") would be 6'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000'000; but everyone's so short-scale nowadays.
12:24:22 <ais523> I think it's amazing that you can get that sort of compression
12:25:25 <ehird> let's think about this
12:25:41 <ehird> divide by 30 → 2.12218292 × 10^26 generations a second
12:25:45 <ais523> I mean, imagine doing that for non-eso languages
12:25:47 <ehird> now, to find out how many cycles
12:25:51 <ehird> we can just divide it by the hertz
12:26:19 <AnMaster> ehird, duo. So multi-core. No idea if you can take advantage of that?
12:26:27 <ehird> not that i know of
12:26:56 <ehird> result: it takes 106109146000000016 cycles to calculate one generation
12:26:59 <ehird> ... is that right?
12:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well you could design a FPGA that each solves it in it's own "area" and also communicates with nodes next to it about the edge state
12:27:07 <ehird> but then it's not non-trivial
12:27:09 <ais523> no, that's the number of generations it calculates in one cycle
12:27:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that can't be right. Well... hashlife cache patterns right? So maybe
12:27:38 <ehird> ais523: how many nanoseconds per generation?
12:27:50 <ehird> hashlife speeds up anything
12:27:55 <AnMaster> so it could compute it once, and look it up
12:27:56 <ais523> AnMaster: it's memoization
12:28:49 <AnMaster> depending how how that mentioned example progresses... it could mean it could just look up a pattern during the last n period or such
12:29:33 <AnMaster> so the whole point of trying to find out number of cycles like above is quite pointless when hashlife is used
12:29:54 <AnMaster> ehird, as it said, hashlife was used.
12:30:19 <fizzie> Approximately 0.0000000000000000047 ns per generation; that's 0.0047 yoctoseconds. SI multipliers don't go any further. :/
12:30:49 <ehird> fizzie: impressive
12:30:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about planck seconds?
12:31:28 <Deewiant> 106109146000000016 = 28'94'@*+'#6'@*+'!4'@f2+f8+***+'C65'@74'@*+***+*****
12:32:06 <fizzie> About 25404219107538000043226 Planck time units, I think.
12:32:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure it can't be made shorter?
12:32:19 <Deewiant> 2bf8+76'@f8+"528"9**+***+7"2!@"f4+'w' +'ga'@*+*****+****
12:32:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where is the code to this generator?
12:32:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course I'm not sure, bruteforcing that would take forever :-P
12:32:58 <Deewiant> Currently it's on my hard disk
12:33:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does it work. I mean overall algorithm
12:33:53 <fizzie> (That's 25 sextillion Planck time units, for short-scale countries.)
12:34:51 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's not that hard; just find the Kolmogorov complexity of the constant in some suitable language, and then transform that to optimal Befunge. (I'll leave the implementation to you.)
12:35:16 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:35:28 <fizzie> The first step's not computable, I guess, but don't let that stop you.
12:35:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Basically: factorize; for any factors that are too big, reduce them by subtraction into two smaller numbers and repeat
12:35:40 <AnMaster> <fizzie> (That's 25 sextillion Planck time units, for short-scale countries.) <-- short scale countries?
12:36:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and a lookup take for small numbers?
12:36:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, the people who think "billion" is 1'000'000'000 instead of 1'000'000'000'000.
12:36:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nah, it's fast enough
12:36:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait. What about sv:"million"
12:36:48 <Deewiant> There's a list of "easy" numbers, which defaults to printable ASCII and 0-15
12:37:02 <AnMaster> isn't that en-us:billion? or eh...
12:37:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Everyone's "million" is the same, it's the larger numbers that differ.
12:37:07 <Deewiant> (I.e. stuff that can be made in ASCII using the [0-9a-f] commands and ')
12:37:29 <fizzie> Your "billion" is the US trillion, I guess. I mean, if your billion is the same as ours.
12:37:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh right. I always write it as 10^n when it gets large
12:38:05 <AnMaster> to avoid all translation issues
12:38:35 <fizzie> That's the US billion.
12:38:42 <AnMaster> that's the step above million here
12:39:22 <fizzie> The short scale has pretty much won the competition for the English-speaking world. Wasn't it so that even the British use it nowadays?
12:41:18 <AnMaster> wikipedia claims Sweden uses long scale hm
12:41:38 <fizzie> Yes, many non-English-speaking European countries do.
12:43:05 <fizzie> At least the SI prefixes are unambiguous. It would be nice to see newspaper articles to speak of gigadollars and teradollars, but somehow I doubt that'll happen. :/
12:44:01 <fizzie> "The 700 gigadollar bailout", it has a nice ring to it.
12:45:29 <AnMaster> I wonder what the rectangular hole near the back of the laptop is. There is an odd symbol next to it. Like [] [] | with a horizontal line through it all
12:45:50 <fizzie> Or "the CBO has estimated the total cost of the war in Iraq to U.S. taxpayers will be around 1.9 teradollars". Something like that.
12:48:11 <fizzie> About the only "unexplained but labeled" holes I've seen in laptops have been places for those security-lock-things, but I don't quite see how that symbol would be related.
12:48:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... it looks like it could be such a hole. Considering size and shape
12:49:00 <fizzie> Something like the one in http://yourblog.direct2dell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/photo-111.jpg then?
12:49:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait that jpg looks like like a gif. With the postorizing (sp?) effect
12:50:22 <fizzie> I guess it could be a very stylized depiction of a key, then.
12:50:36 <fizzie> The iBook has a very unambiguous lock symbol next to the corresponding slot.
12:52:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually I don't think the line through go all the way through... could be a chain? it is a bit hard to see... since it is right *below* the screen, due to being next to the hinge for the monitor
12:52:20 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:52:23 <AnMaster> which is a weird placement of something the used is supposed to see
12:52:27 <fizzie> Maybe a chain, then; it's usually a cable-style lock.
12:52:46 <AnMaster> so they like the laptops to get stolen
12:53:07 <AnMaster> thus they just provide the hole for those who know they want one, and hope no one else discovers it
12:54:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure I'd be so paranoid; it could be just that they didn't give much consideration to where to put the hole.
12:55:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, at least laptops has ports you can reach, unlike many desktops...
12:56:06 <AnMaster> well generally usb at the front these days
12:56:25 <AnMaster> and *sometimes* also headphone/mic
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12:58:29 <fizzie> The "2*usb, maybe firewire, 2*3.5mm stereo plugs" front panel combo seems to be pretty common.
12:59:16 <fizzie> Also people keep adding USB ports to monitors; my main one has two. It's reasonably convenient for the memory card reader.
12:59:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, 2 stereo plugs doesn't seem to work with sound card, only with on board audio. Generally the sound card has different connectors for front panel than the mobo
13:00:51 <fizzie> Possibly, yes. I haven't been dabbling with separate soundcards lately.
13:01:08 <fizzie> I doubt the s/pdif digital output would be very different for a more expensive sound card, anyway.
13:01:22 <fizzie> At least I hope so. It's supposed to just pass through the bytes.
13:01:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, I use it mostly for midi reasons.
13:02:08 <AnMaster> hardware midi tends to be a lot better than software midi. software midi very often stutters too IME
13:04:04 <AnMaster> at least with a good soundfont. Crappy consumer ones tend to be so small just a few MB...
13:04:25 * AnMaster normally uses airfont340 which is around 70 MB
13:05:16 <Deewiant> If somebody wanted to look at the source of the number-to-funge tool, http://funge.pastebin.com/fcc9e805
13:05:41 <fizzie> There aren't very many pastes in the funge pastebin. :/
13:06:20 <Deewiant> I would've used the esoteric pastebin but there was a rather odd paste there I'd rather not be associated with
13:07:47 <GregorR_> Hm, I can't quite decide what I need to do with my peppermint soda at this point.
13:07:52 <GregorR_> Maybe it just needs more peppermint.
13:08:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You were the one who asked about it ^
13:08:13 <fizzie> Add more pepper, substract some mint.
13:08:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, will look closer when I get home, since I need to leave in a few minutes
13:08:40 <Deewiant> Divide by pepper, multiply by mint and you'll get a mintmintsoda
13:09:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually: will look closer on sunday. since I have a test tomorrow, and I need to study for it...
13:09:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, agreed. At least the next two ones won't be that way
13:10:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they are on Tuesday and Friday during week 45. Both of them
13:10:29 <Deewiant> cal(1) doesn't do week numbers
13:10:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um it's week 35 now so
13:11:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the date/calender thingy that pops up in both gnome and kde when you click the clock in the menu/taskbar/whatever shows week numbers
13:11:37 <Deewiant> I have no such thingy, nor gnome or kde
13:12:24 <fizzie> Debian puts both cal and ncal to the "bsdmainutils" package.
13:12:59 <fizzie> Anyway, week 45 is from November 2nd to 8th.
13:13:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iirc there is some "reverse package lookup" tool on arch too
13:13:27 <fizzie> At least in the ncal numbering. It's not the only possible way to count, though.
13:13:33 <Deewiant> There's no package by the name of ncal, only "mencal" which advertises itself as a cal variant
13:14:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I know I used it. but can't reach the arch computer atm, due to it being at home and unplugged with no ram sticks in it while waiting for new ram.
13:15:06 <fizzie> Well, you can always abuse "date" if you want, though it's not very user-friendly.
13:15:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ date --date='2009-11-02' +%V
13:15:33 <fizzie> It can do a couple of different week numberings; %V is the ISO week number, with Monday as the start date.
13:15:44 <Deewiant> mencal is evidently a "menstruation calendar" which doesn't do week numbers
13:16:12 <fizzie> %U week number of year, with Sunday as first day of week (00..53)
13:16:13 <fizzie> %V ISO week number, with Monday as first day of week (01..53)
13:16:13 <fizzie> %W week number of year, with Monday as first day of week (00..53)
13:16:49 <Deewiant> fizzie: Are Finland's week numbers %V?
13:17:03 <Deewiant> I would guess they are but I've never looked into it
13:17:14 <fizzie> I think so, yes. At least %V has matched the two or three times I've used it to look up a week number.
13:18:12 <fizzie> ISO weeks are numbered so that each week begins on Mon, and is associated with the year that contains the week's Thursday.
13:18:20 -!- oklofok has joined.
13:18:39 <oklofok> GregorR_ had an interesting hobby
13:18:59 <fizzie> "Most of Europe ISO 8601(1988) except UK, European Norm EN 28601 (1992)"; I guess it's what is used here too.
13:20:04 <oklofok> like, 3-4 meter tall mechas that shot laser, flew with rocket boots
13:20:42 <oklofok> he had made 5 of them, fizzie also made one, and they fought once
13:21:10 <oklofok> also GregorR_ showed us a proof of his newest mecha working, because ehird didn't believe him
13:21:33 <oklofok> weirdly enough, you prove a mecha works the same way you prove the smallest disc containing a set of points is unique
13:22:24 <oklofok> also the same day this happened, i chanced upon GregorR_ here in turku, he was here to give like a presentation of some sort
13:23:08 <oklofok> he'd have taken me to colorado/california, where he lived, same thing in the dream, to see the newest mecha, but it was already 17:15, so the last train to america had already left
13:23:28 <AnMaster> oklofok, you are making this dream up
13:23:35 <oklofok> so he had to go to helsinki for the night, to sleep at fizzie's (apparently once you've fought someone with a mecha, you're friends for life.)
13:23:59 <Deewiant> I thought fizzie lived in Espoo?
13:24:00 <AnMaster> oklofok, it sounds too weird and too detailed... but ok
13:24:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, helsinki isn't in Europe?
13:24:10 <oklofok> AnMaster: true, i may have made up a few details, i'm not sure it was a train to america, may have been a bus
13:24:24 <oklofok> but i'm not making up anything important, naturally it's somewhat fuzzy
13:24:38 <oklofok> Deewiant: yes, but i always say he lives in helsinki
13:24:52 <AnMaster> oklofok, taking the ferry between Siberia and Alaska?
13:25:40 <oklofok> AnMaster: may even have been an airplane, all i know is we were standing somewhere that looked somewhat like the turku train station
13:25:41 <AnMaster> oh Espoo, not Europe. Weird reado (opposite of typo?)
13:26:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I was wondering what you were asking that for :-P
13:26:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I can understand that
13:27:12 * AnMaster watch some modern sculpture outside the window...
13:27:48 <oklofok> i also think i had another dream that was just about the discs
13:28:04 <oklofok> but that's basically just me reading computational geometry, not sure it's worth telling
13:29:10 <fizzie> In my dream I had a piano shipped from Russia, and I had to have a friend pick the lock of the shipping container at the customs station; and it was like the usual thing to do, the customs declaration form even had a checkbox and a text field like "[ ] lock picked by: ___________".
13:29:52 <AnMaster> two upright metal tubes, one with a metal cone at the top end, there are some orange, green and blue thing at the middle of other one, and the cone one spiral pattern with those colours. Or it could be some sort of "hip" chimney I guess...
13:31:48 * AnMaster uploads a photo from the phone
13:33:02 <fizzie> They did manage to lose the piano, too; I spent at least two days on the phone calling people in Russia and the Finnish post system, but no-one had a clue to where it went. You'd think a thing like that would be a bit too big to just lose like that.
13:34:21 <oklofok> library time, GregorR_: if you start building mechas, do tell, i'll definitely fight you
13:34:25 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
13:34:34 <AnMaster> http://imgur.com/HwZXT <-- modern art or hip chimney?
13:37:02 <ehird> plz direct link to the images
13:37:06 <ehird> but that looks cool.
13:37:21 <ehird> [12:43] fizzie: At least the SI prefixes are unambiguous. It would be nice to see newspaper articles to speak of gigadollars and teradollars, but somehow I doubt that'll happen. :/
13:37:22 <ehird> the tarsnap TOS speaks of "300 picodollars"
13:37:34 <ehird> also "bye-months" or something
13:37:41 <ehird> [13:21] oklofok: weirdly enough, you prove a mecha works the same way you prove the smallest disc containing a set of points is unique
13:37:54 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
13:38:06 <ehird> GregorR: did you see my Fisherman's Fiend?
13:38:18 <ehird> GregorR: it's a drink you should make
13:38:29 <ehird> a fuckton of Fisherman's Friend lozenges
13:38:46 <ehird> it's (a) soda (b) caffeine (c) minty (d) Hey, my mouth burned off. cool!
13:38:57 <ehird> (e) I never really liked it anyway.
13:39:03 <ehird> (f) Okay I'm sort of missing my teeth.
13:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so which do you think? modern art or chimney?
13:39:29 <ehird> GregorR: (You know what those mints are right)
13:39:49 <ehird> GregorR: Let's just say they're... strong
13:39:58 <ehird> And leave it at that.
13:40:04 <ehird> Now go buy a whole bunch!
13:40:57 <fizzie> With art, you can never be sure.
13:40:58 <GregorR> Presumably stronger than Altoids.
13:41:13 <GregorR> And with the world's most annoying website.
13:41:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("mi klama lo zdani be mi").
13:41:26 <ehird> GregorR: Yes, stronger.
13:42:53 <ehird> If you actually drink a whole glass of Fisherman's Fiend, I will start a religion concerning the worship of You, incarnation of the One True Deity of exquisite unsurmountableness :P
13:47:53 -!- Pthing has joined.
14:03:15 <ais523> what's the best free Windows antivirus at the moment?
14:04:06 -!- oklofok has joined.
14:09:42 <ais523> I have family here who are running to the end of a Norton subscriptoin
14:09:48 <ehird> ais523: just give them avg
14:09:48 <ais523> and I know that isn't the best antivirus for them to be using
14:09:50 <ehird> it's the "simplest"
14:10:09 <ehird> the actual best windows antivirus is the non-free nod32
14:10:26 <ehird> which is, ridiculously, written entirely in assembl
14:10:42 <ais523> that's ridiculous alright
14:11:00 <ehird> but it works well, unobtrusively, and uses very, very little system resources
14:12:32 <ehird> of course the best windows anti-virus is you can guess the rest
14:26:40 <ehird> "A Dutch court has put a 13-year-old girl under state care for two months, stalling her bid to become the youngest person to sail solo around the world."
14:29:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:33:01 <ehird> RIP society ??? — 28 August 2009
14:33:05 <ehird> "Epic fail." has appeared in a BBC article
14:34:06 <ehird> really stupid subject?
14:34:36 <ehird> oklofok: yeah, awesome.rss
14:34:49 <oklofok> well, yes, you are a good rss
14:34:52 <ehird> i am the only person that distills pure awesome from the internet then let it percolate to the channel :P
14:34:55 <oklofok> i'm going to eat pizza today.
14:35:00 <ehird> oklofok: sweet, what kind
14:35:18 <oklofok> i always eat it, let's see if i have any idea what's in it
14:35:52 <oklofok> i always switch tomato to...
14:36:16 <ehird> oklofok: you're such an rss generated by a markov chain
14:36:22 <oklofok> ah! blue cheese or whatever the white version of it is called
14:36:59 <ehird> it might be garlic!
14:37:08 <oklofok> but i'm not entirely sure what else, at least two more ingredients
14:37:25 <oklofok> this is the pizza i've been taking for the last half a year or so
14:37:37 <oklofok> i'm a "the usual?" customer
14:38:01 <oklofok> well actually i'm the the usual customer
14:38:47 <ehird> i support the legalisation of medical pizza.
14:39:44 <ehird> oklofok: you should make a pizza entirely out of meat.
14:39:54 <ehird> and maybe like a base
14:40:13 <ehird> the sauce is like liquidised meat in broth
14:41:23 <oklofok> i'd be a carnivore if i could affort it, and if my stomach could stomach it
14:41:37 <ehird> my stomach stomachs stomachs
14:41:54 <ehird> oklofok: I think that's an affrond
14:42:34 <oklofok> i don't know what an affrond is
14:42:39 <ehird> oklofok: "affort it"
14:44:14 <ehird> <oklofok> i'd be a carnivore if i could affort it,
14:44:18 <ehird> ehird: oklofok: I think that's an affrond
14:44:49 <oklofok> defining "affrond" to mean an excuse, it makes sense to me
14:45:03 <ehird> oklofok: the word is "afford", not "affort"
14:45:10 <ehird> just as the word is "affront", not "affrond"
14:45:22 <ehird> you made big unnoticey error lol
14:45:32 <oklofok> i seriously didn't see that :D
14:45:37 <oklofok> that's not exactly like me
14:46:21 <ehird> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello
14:46:24 <ehird> do you have... bear... powers?
14:50:37 <ehird> oklofok: then you are not a bear
14:50:48 <ehird> citation: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/bearhello
14:52:03 <oklofok> they say no bear powers => not bear?
14:52:15 <ehird> not technically, but it is implied by "bear powers"
14:52:25 <ehird> for instance "human abilities" are things all humans can do?
14:53:09 <oklofok> they only *may* have bear powers, that doesn't necessarily mean all do
14:53:34 <ehird> also, portals and bears are connected by yellow
14:53:38 <ehird> portals are pretty odd
14:53:43 <ehird> so we can ascertain that portals are a bear power
14:53:52 <ehird> you clearly have a portal to here, IRC
14:53:56 <ehird> so either you have bear powers or are not a bear
14:53:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:54:48 <fizzie> Aw, I missed your sequence of portly things.
14:55:13 <ehird> terrorists are illegal
14:55:43 <oklofok> now i must flee, the world is at plea!
14:55:45 -!- oklofok has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )").
14:57:01 -!- ehird has set topic: dubby rucklings: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:19:03 <Deewiant> Bear hello is as awesome as it was five years ago
15:23:46 <ehird> it's one of my favourite artworks
15:23:51 <ehird> I have weird tastes
15:42:32 <ehird> http://minimalissimo.com/2009/07/thinner/ holy damn
15:42:42 <ehird> it's a fucking staple table
15:43:03 <ehird> although it's swedish
15:43:07 <ehird> that's a rather big negative point
15:43:10 <ehird> ((AnMaster now mauls me.))
15:45:07 <ehird> AnMaster: you can read swedish, right? (:P) does its website say anything about being sold anywhere? kinda hard to google for
15:46:24 <ehird> ais523: protip: click the link.
15:46:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Grab "artikellista" and try googling for what I think are product codes (TI 8080, etc)
15:46:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I saw that in the pdf
15:46:53 <ais523> ehird: you said the website was in swedish, though
15:46:56 <ehird> Can't imagine they're remotely affordable
15:46:57 <ehird> ais523: not that page
15:47:00 <ehird> and pictures aren't in any language
15:47:09 <ais523> you mean I have to use a browser that shows /images/?
15:47:17 <ehird> to look at the staple table. yes.
15:47:23 <ehird> we have this thing called hypermedia now.
15:47:28 <ehird> we can mix content types.
15:47:32 <ais523> ehird: you can easily describe what the table is in less than 1000 words
15:47:41 <Deewiant> ehird: Other than that, at least that page doesn't say anything about anybody selling it
15:47:47 <ehird> ais523: design doesn't exactly work like that.
15:47:49 <Deewiant> Can't be bothered to browse the site
15:47:57 <ehird> "staple table" is as close as you can get without looking at it.
15:59:51 <ehird> hey, the video in http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8221235.stm has haskell!
16:01:28 <Deewiant> And the screenie near the middle has what?
16:01:56 <ehird> Are \x -> y and {|x| y} both functions?
16:02:24 <Deewiant> Possibly made by somebody who looked at the haskell and mashed up something random code-looking :-P
16:02:32 <Deewiant> That's what first comes to mind
16:02:40 <Deewiant> Looks like a blend of Haskell and Javascript
16:02:44 <ehird> It's in the video too
16:02:56 <ehird> and he then does something like Sin30.cs() or something
16:02:58 <Deewiant> It's really short though so it's of course hard to tell
16:03:03 <ehird> so clearly a custom language
16:03:16 <ehird> Something designed for conciseness at all cost, I guess
16:03:25 <Deewiant> Hmm yeah, some kind of DSL is likely
16:03:33 <ehird> Grr, googling for "thinner table buy" is hard.
16:05:19 <Deewiant> Did you try the product codes?
16:06:10 * ehird attempts to find the ikea desk he liked to compare sizes
16:07:07 <ehird> fizzie: what's that desk you use thingy
16:19:32 -!- SteGriff has joined.
16:20:10 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?q=ascii+art
16:20:18 <ehird> have we seen SteGriff before.
16:20:34 <ehird> have you sacrificed any goats yet
16:20:49 <ehird> then what are you doing here, heathen!
16:21:10 <Deewiant> I thought this channel was about dubby rucklings
16:22:04 <ehird> (alternatively, this channel is about say gex)
16:22:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't you mean... according to augur?
16:22:44 <ehird> Hm, I forgot to flip them
16:22:49 <ehird> Don't you mean... according to augur?
16:23:07 <Deewiant> Er... yes, I do believe that's exactly what I meant
16:23:34 <ehird> Deewiant: It's hard to apoonerise slliterations
16:23:42 <ehird> (A poonerise cliterations?)
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16:31:01 <ehird> He wouldn't have lasted long anyway
17:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that link was in English in my browser....? So why did you ask for my help
17:50:25 <ehird> Click the link it links to.
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19:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well doesn't say anything I can see directly
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19:04:29 <AnMaster> why the hell does firefox take several minutes to prepare 5 pages to be printed...
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19:09:47 <oerjan> <asiekierka> I want to do an esolang in base 5
19:10:16 <AnMaster> okay I guess I can blame the slow preparing the print on that it was all a very long and very detailed table
19:19:11 <oerjan> left twice = multiply by 25, sort of
19:20:56 <oerjan> rotate the stack? then it's a deque...
19:21:47 * ehird plays around with designs for a House That Doesn't Suck(TM)
19:22:12 <ehird> i am easily amused
19:24:48 * oerjan wonders if there is a term for pairs of words that can be both synonyms and antonyms
19:25:20 <asiekierka> Creating it pushes all the stack numbers down and makes a new one
19:25:39 <asiekierka> Removing it removes the current one and pushes all the stack numbers up
19:26:20 <oerjan> but if you can rotate from/to the bottom as well, it's a deque
19:26:35 <asiekierka> you can only move the pointer right though
19:27:31 <oerjan> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=deque
19:27:45 <asiekierka> Well i'm not sure if I should add both-way rotation
19:27:58 <asiekierka> Also rotating from the last cell moves you to the first
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22:59:49 <ais523> heh, AVG has a Linuz version
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23:26:37 <ais523> ooh, someone hacked into apache.org
23:32:34 <ais523> apparently they got the ssh key for one of the backup servers somehow
23:32:47 <ais523> and used it to push CGI scripts that let them do anything to the main site
23:32:55 <ais523> but someone there noticed
23:36:04 <ais523> https://blogs.apache.org/infra/entry/apache_org_downtime_initial_report
23:36:42 <ais523> ofc, for all we know, it was a successful takeover and that blog post was planted
23:49:30 <fizzie> ehird: Our tables are the "Galant" IKEA ones. But you are no longer here! It is a tragedy.
23:55:31 <oerjan> wait, ehird was in finland?
23:58:05 <oerjan> "o" is finish for "I can neither confirm nor deny that", right?
23:59:27 <oklofok> oerjan: + "and even if i could, i probably wouldn't want to"
00:00:05 <oklofok> but that's just one of the meanings
00:00:27 <oklofok> books just keep piling up and they never finish :<
00:00:50 <oerjan> i assume the 64 meanings of chinese "(y)i" have nothing on that one
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00:13:57 <Ilari> Haha: "scrollkeeper: Depends: rarian-compat but it is not going to be installed". "rarian-compat: Conflicts: scrollkeeper".
00:16:03 <ais523> ok, that's a neat loop
00:16:12 <ais523> are the depends/conflicts on particular versions?
00:16:31 <ais523> loops like that are often used to force two things to be updated simultaneously, by depending on the new version and conflicting on all the old ones
00:16:41 <ais523> but if versions aren't specified, that's really quite failful
00:16:59 <Ilari> I think it would show the versions if they were conflict/depends on version.
00:19:59 <Ilari> Not the worst FAIL I have seen with package management. IIRC, once there was package that was broken enough to make a mess out of package database (it required repair afterwards).
00:21:00 <Ilari> Or actually the package itself didn't mess it, but the installation failed in way that made dpkg mess up the package database.
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00:31:25 <oerjan> fizzie: beware that IKEA tables may explode. http://www.adressa.no/nyheter/trondheim/article1374585.ece
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00:40:19 <fizzie> Gaa. Now I'll have to live in constant fear of exploding tables.
00:41:17 <Ilari> Well, at least the package deps format is so expressive that wheither deps are satisfiable is NP-complete problem... :-)
00:44:39 <oerjan> hm could that be made PSPACE-complete by considering source-based upgrade paths...
00:45:22 <oerjan> (if you sometimes had to downgrade in order to compile something before you can upgrade)
00:45:41 <Ilari> NP-hard by ability to transform Sudoku to deps and in NP by checking being easy. And NP-hard + in-NP => NP-complete.
00:46:30 <oerjan> the "sometimes had to downgrade" being essential to make it possibly harder than NP, here
00:46:49 <Ilari> oerjan: Can those paths blow up exponentially?
00:47:07 <oerjan> if it was complicated enough...
00:48:30 <oerjan> if you have to go back and forth enough.
00:48:57 <Ilari> Still not as bad as one game (Enigma): In that game "Is this level possible?" is RE-complete(!).
00:49:36 <oerjan> turing completeness tends to do that :)
00:49:44 <oerjan> (i assume that would be why)
00:50:32 <ais523> Ilari: which level is that?
00:51:03 <Ilari> Yeah. Usually most of level file is Lua code (it can get callbacks that can modify the map and it even initially lays out the map).
00:53:04 <Ilari> ais523: Probably none of the standard levels. But it isn't difficult to design a level that's only possible if some turing machine halts on empty tape...
00:53:29 <ais523> after all, levels are written in Lua
00:53:45 * ais523 has actually written levels for Enigma that will be in the next version
00:55:31 <Ilari> If there are no callbacks to Lua code, its still PSPACE-complete (use pushable blocks and switches tied to openclose message to emulate sokoban).
00:56:26 <Ilari> (PSPACE-hard definitely)
00:57:12 <Ilari> Since the initial level layout might put superpolynomial amount of stuff to level...
00:58:35 <oerjan> depends whether you consider the layout size to be the size parameter...
00:58:43 <Ilari> But without callbacks to Lua and initial layout assumed to halt, its definitely recursive.
00:59:11 <Ilari> Input size: Size of Lua code for level.
00:59:21 <ais523> Ilari: with an item-generation switch (requires a callback), you can do a Minsky machine with gradients and actors
00:59:26 <ais523> and coins going into coinslots
01:00:21 <Ilari> Well, with callbacks, Lua code can do all kinds of funky stuff...
01:00:47 <ais523> I wrote a Sudoku level
01:02:17 <Ilari> I have written one "more serious" level. Was quite nasty as it essentially involved solving random 16 (easy) or 25 (normal) variable equation over GF(2).
01:02:35 <Ilari> Didn't send it anywhere. Don't know if I even have it anymore.
01:02:48 <Ilari> s/equation/equation group/
01:02:54 <ais523> people have posted insanely impossible levels in the past
01:03:23 <ais523> look up my "test of dexterity" on the forums for one that needs incredibly high levels of mouse control, but is easy to work out the path through
01:06:49 <Ilari> For "looks totally impossible but just requires some nasty tricks": Put long horizontal or vertical stretch (tens of blocks) of "space" floor, and put stretches of abyss to its both sides. :-)
01:08:05 <ais523> there's a level in the dev version based on that principle, but more complex
01:09:13 <Ilari> And I don't mean those few readymade levels that have short such stretches (up to something like 5 blocks), I really mean tens of blocks (or even 100+)...
01:10:39 <Ilari> And of course no umbrellas, forcefields or similar stuff.
01:12:53 <Ilari> 100 block stretch, the window in direction is less than 0.6 degrees...
01:14:05 <Ilari> Other nasty stuff seen: Negative friction.
01:14:16 <ais523> ah, the nightmare levels
01:14:23 <ais523> it's a series of about 5, now
01:14:40 <nescience> but some of the user-made levels for enigma are just silly
01:14:46 <ais523> agreed, some are good though
01:14:53 <nescience> i don't want to sift through them though
01:14:58 <nescience> i KNOW all the oxyd levels are good :)
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01:15:55 <nescience> interestingly, i was just talking about oxyd in another channel
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04:33:32 <ehird> 15:49:30 <fizzie> ehird: Our tables are the "Galant" IKEA ones. But you are no longer here! It is a tragedy.
04:33:36 <ehird> 15:55:31 <oerjan> wait, ehird was in finland?
04:35:09 <ehird> DID YOU KNOW: it is 4:35am?
04:36:51 <ehird> what's the hardest class of possible decision problems?
04:38:21 <ehird> seems like co-re-complete
04:42:33 <ehird> hardest known i mean
04:42:42 <oklofok> an infinite chain is known
04:44:02 -!- ehird has set topic: What about my all insane? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
04:44:13 <ehird> oklofok: so I slept ais523's 8pm-4am schedule unintentionally
04:45:37 <Ilari> There's also class "ALL".
04:45:52 <ehird> yes, but that doesn't count :P
04:45:57 <ehird> i guess I mean a -hard class
04:46:18 <ehird> Ilari: but ALL also includes impossible stuff, yah?
04:46:47 <Ilari> It includes even indescriable stuff.
04:49:50 <Ilari> RE-complete and co-RE-complete are closely related. In RE-complete problems, algos hang on 'no' instances and in co-RE-complete problems, algos hang on 'yes' instances.
04:50:15 <Ilari> Hardest class where algo that doesn't hang (or abort) is possible is R (Recursive).
04:50:38 <ehird> Ilari: right, but there's no R-complete :P
04:57:32 <oklofok> Ilari: were you at some sorta helsinki-related university as well?
04:58:54 <Ilari> Then above RE and co-RE there is R^RE, above that RE^RE, co-RE^RE, then R^RE^RE, then RE^RE^RE, co-RE^RE^RE, etc...
05:00:30 <Ilari> Recursively Enumerable with RE-oracle.
05:02:18 <oklofok> right, was just wondering what ^ meant, i'm rather unfamiliar with the less practical classes
05:10:01 <oklofok> yay manually grepped helsinki out of you
05:10:22 <oklofok> should probably go do some morning shoppity
05:10:48 <ehird> "I'll grep the shit out of you!"
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05:40:46 <zzo38> I think even CCALL in GASOIL can be implemented using only CALL. I think it will work fine without any conditional commands
05:41:00 <zzo38> (That doesn't mean you should necessarily remove these commands from the GASOIL specification, though)
05:43:18 <zzo38> O, you're out. But obviously you could answer anyways.
05:43:48 <zzo38> CCALL (SWAP;0;=;48;+;CHR;"ccall";&;CALL)
05:43:57 <zzo38> 0ccall (CALL) 1ccall (DROP)
05:43:59 <ehird> looks like uhh, a thing
05:44:25 <zzo38> What looks like what thing?
05:50:30 <zzo38> Do you think this program would work?
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05:56:48 <AnMaster> ehird, did that make as little sense to you as it did to me?
05:57:11 <ehird> It'll be something about one of his five thousand new languages that we're meant to intimately follow the development of.
06:00:43 <ehird> He just forked someone else's language, like usual
06:00:53 <ehird> just suggested a change
06:04:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_effect ?
06:04:56 <ehird> It starts with a bullet point instead of a summary of the article with the title bolded, and the first letter is lowercase.
06:05:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mozart_effect&diff=prev&oldid=309016115
06:05:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mozart_effect&diff=next&oldid=309016115
06:05:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, it'll just be intricate music that does it.
06:06:03 * ehird reverts the vandalism
06:06:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so you think it might work?
06:06:24 <ehird> I don't think it makes you smarter, I think it ...
06:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, I'm talking about the the short term effect mentioned
06:06:39 <ehird> It doesn't overclock your brain, it just runs an intensive computation.
06:06:43 <ehird> To disable the power-saving mode.
06:07:12 <ehird> No, it's not, because it implies that the Mozart would have a high enough cognitive overhead as to be intensive on your thought processes, thus not actually helping.
06:07:14 <ehird> But it's close enough.
06:07:47 <ehird> Anyway, eight to nine points isn't exactly earth-shattering.
06:07:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that analogy is probably closer to Schönberg
06:08:02 <ehird> And if you're not really a Mozart fan, you'll just get annoyed, defeating the point.
06:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well luckily I'm a Mozart fan :)
06:08:43 <ehird> classical generally sucks *mauled*
06:08:49 <ehird> (<AnMaster> Romantic blah blah)
06:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, music taste differs a lot so meh
06:10:00 <AnMaster> also classical differs a lot. Mozart is generally quite "easy" to listen to. Compared to some other classical composers. Such as Kraus for example.
06:10:59 <ehird> i basically like two kinds of music equally, fucking weird stuff that most people wouldn't call music, and then pretty much straightforward stuff
06:11:02 <ehird> not really a middle ground
06:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and classical would be in that middle ground I guess?
06:12:10 <ehird> most of it at least
06:12:36 <AnMaster> because I wouldn't call classical straight-forward. Nor "fucking weird stuff" (in most cases).
06:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I think you would like Schoenberg, at least his middle period
06:13:40 <ehird> i listened to some the last time you mentioned him
06:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is http://xkcd.com/ broken for you too?
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06:17:03 <zzo38> It isn't something about one of his five thousand new languages that we're meant to intimately follow the development of.
06:17:26 <zzo38> It is a comment about GASOIL (it's also on the talk page)
06:19:33 <AnMaster> well I have listened to some Mozart... just in case ;)
06:21:17 <ehird> defrag your memory next: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW0mBYZm6Uc
06:21:23 <ehird> (note: memory defragmentation is painful.)
06:21:31 <ehird> (do not use if pregnant or not pregnant)
06:21:53 <ehird> hmm make that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW0mBYZm6Uc&fmt=18
06:21:57 <ehird> stupid mono youtube regular quality
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06:46:02 <ehird> Deewiant: That weird javascript/haskell code thing is supercollider
06:46:08 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/9f323/1m53s_in_haskell_code_spotted_on_bbc_video/c0ciwqw?context=1
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07:05:59 * Rugxulo has trouble finding good Befunge 93 examples ...
07:06:11 <Rugxulo> I mean, I found some, but I am surprised there aren't more
07:09:05 <ehird> there are probably about 100 b93 programs total
07:09:15 <ehird> of which 30 are even worth looking at, maybe
07:09:46 <Rugxulo> am I wrong or doesn't Brainf*** have loads more?
07:09:55 <Rugxulo> or maybe it just seems that way
07:10:28 <ehird> It is much more popular.
07:10:32 <ehird> Rugxulo: look at befunge-98.
07:10:38 <ehird> it's bloated, but there are quite a few programs
07:10:41 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
07:10:44 <ehird> — fungot the IRC bot.
07:10:45 <fungot> ehird: i must ponder this turn of events, it can have a powerful effect on time. ask the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
07:10:58 <ehird> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob_plain/HEAD:/fungot.b98
07:10:59 <fungot> ehird: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly! are you leaving! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone ca
07:11:01 <ehird> Be afraid, be very afraid.
07:11:34 -!- ehird has set topic: then you should leave quickly! are you leaving! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone ca http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
07:12:06 <Rugxulo> yeah, haven't really looked at Befunge-98 yet, looks odd
07:12:17 <Rugxulo> and Concurrent Funge (or whatever), lol
07:12:54 <ehird> it is, uhh, a little bloated
07:12:57 <ehird> also don't use cfunge.
07:13:15 <Rugxulo> (although I can't anyways, doesn't support my preferred platform)
07:13:41 <ehird> Shock! AnMaster makes it work on EVERYTHING that supports the intimate byclauses of the POSIX standard!
07:13:53 <ehird> HE DEDICATES HIS LIFE TO ITS PORTABILITY! There cannot be a single platform it does not support!
07:14:03 <Rugxulo> well, my platform isn't quite 100% POSIX
07:14:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: I'm being sarcastic
07:14:30 <Rugxulo> in the readme he claims Cygwin *might* work
07:14:35 <ehird> Rugxulo: It won't.
07:14:50 <ehird> Don't worry, AnMaster will be happy to condescendingly mention how your platform isn't true POSIX.
07:14:51 <Rugxulo> and no, I actually wanted to use DJGPP, but alas ... ;-)
07:15:01 <Rugxulo> along with every other GNU nerd ...
07:15:21 <ehird> Wait, did you say windows was your *preferred* platform?
07:15:28 <Rugxulo> God forbid anybody write anything "portable" that is actually, erm, portable!
07:15:29 <ehird> Please don't say that means you actually like it :{
07:15:39 <Rugxulo> actually like what? cfunge or DJGPP
07:15:51 <ehird> Rugxulo: heck, I don't bother supporting the heap of windows shitapis, but I don't make a claim to portability, either
07:16:29 <Rugxulo> it just feels hollow to brag about portability when all you support is "POSIX" (aka, Linux and whatever wants to be as popular as Linux)
07:16:45 <ehird> actually, it works on SunOS I think
07:17:31 <Rugxulo> he should try Minix and see if that works
07:18:08 <ehird> don't try and read the code, by the way; he changed the initialisation of fungespace to use inline ASM with vector operations because the C loop was a few milliseconds shorter
07:18:12 <ehird> (and was identified as a "bottleneck")
07:18:16 <Rugxulo> anyways, it doesn't matter, I'm happy with the default BEF.C (B93) interpreter for now
07:18:22 <ehird> that attitude is applied, uhh, pretty uniformly
07:18:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: AnMaster's pet revision of befunge-98 that nobody needs.
07:18:47 <Rugxulo> but why not just call it "09" ? :-)
07:18:58 <ehird> Because Chris Pressey told him to.
07:19:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: It clears up a few edge cases everyone agrees on anyway, and turns fingerprints into URIs instead of compact 4-character names, even though that makes all code so much more uglier, and nobody has EVER needed it, and nobody else cares
07:19:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: He asked Chris Pressey if he could use the name.
07:20:00 <Rugxulo> and, what, "Befunge09" is trademarked or something?
07:20:08 <ehird> no, chris pressey just made befunge-93.
07:20:15 <ehird> besides, -09 would be 1909.
07:20:22 <ehird> it's befunge-{years since 1900}.
07:20:45 <ehird> So does your mom :P
07:20:47 <Rugxulo> even the *nix epoch doesn't start until 1970
07:21:05 <ehird> It's a reference to Y2K, ffs.
07:21:12 <ehird> A bunch of sites did "19"+twodigityear.
07:21:18 <ehird> Or "'"+twodigityear.
07:21:31 <ehird> So we got sites saying "It's 13 January '100"
07:22:42 <Rugxulo> heh, looking at his vectorization code :-)
07:23:04 <Rugxulo> God knows why anybody prefers GNU inline syntax
07:23:22 <ehird> he's ranted about how much intel asm sucks so much
07:23:25 <ehird> (despite being rebutted)
07:23:26 <Rugxulo> (and m4 + sh for autoconf), Befunge is *less* obfuscated ;-)
07:23:38 <ehird> you're lucky he isn't here right now, or there's about a 70% chance we would be in one of the channel's favourite pastimes, saying nothing while me and him argue noisily
07:24:27 <Rugxulo> I'm not convinced that GCC's -ftree-vectorize even does anything (despite 4.3.x's improvements) 99% of the time
07:24:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: His optimised build includes a gcc option that does *unsafe* "math optimisations"
07:24:47 <Rugxulo> God help us when ymm0 (AVX) becomes available :-(
07:24:55 <ehird> I think he once bruteforced a bunch of operations and benchmarked them
07:24:58 <ehird> Also, he fuzz-tests it.
07:25:04 <Rugxulo> -ffast-math ?? or something else?
07:25:10 <ehird> It has unsafe in the name
07:25:29 <Rugxulo> well, I mean, it's good to experiment, even if a lot of it doesn't pan out
07:25:40 <ehird> This is how he does *everything*
07:25:56 <ehird> If you want a befunge-98 interpreter that works well on windows, btw, try CCBI: http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/ccbi.html
07:26:02 <ehird> Although, hmm, that doesn't link to CCBI2
07:26:11 <ehird> There's a windows binary of 1 there, so should be painless.
07:27:58 <Rugxulo> seriously, how many people program in Concurrent Befunge??
07:28:15 <Rugxulo> most people (me included) can't even handle normal concurrent programming :-P
07:28:57 <Rugxulo> argh, multiline C macros ;-)
07:29:15 <ehird> CCBI also does TRDS, which cfunge never will
07:29:18 <ehird> TRDS lets you travel in time.
07:29:40 <Rugxulo> sed? stream editor? also considered obfuscated ;-)
07:30:32 <Rugxulo> BTW, ever heard of bfd? (tiny DOS Brainf*** compiler)
07:30:55 <ehird> Brainfuck compilers are a dime a dozen.
07:31:07 <Rugxulo> written in NASM, tre cool ;-)
07:31:10 <ehird> take a look at this: http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/
07:31:13 <ehird> compiles hello world to...
07:31:16 <ehird> PUTS("Hello World!");
07:31:28 <ehird> (AnMaster may now mention inbetween, which is his own utter direct copy of esotope, despite denying this)
07:31:38 <ehird> (and having, like, 3 more minor optimisations)
07:32:35 <Rugxulo> "written in Python", previous link was "written in D", and AnMaster's Cfunge is "written in C99 w/ mmap etc." :-/
07:32:56 <Rugxulo> so it's not as portable as I'd like
07:32:57 <ehird> Python is ubiquitous, CCBI has binaries, cfunge sucks
07:33:02 <ehird> Rugxulo: Seriously?
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07:33:05 <ehird> Name me ONE platform Python doesn't run on.
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07:33:14 <Rugxulo> Python 2.5 will be deprecated eventually
07:33:24 <ehird> It will be maintained for years
07:33:28 <ehird> Because nobody uses Python 3
07:33:33 <ehird> And Python 3 doesn't have 3489573498573495 libraries
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07:33:35 <Rugxulo> while even Scons (I think) still runs on 1.5.2 (or whatever)
07:33:35 <ehird> Rugxulo: backwards compatible.
07:33:48 <ehird> It can be migrated at any time.
07:33:49 <ehird> It's short anyway.
07:34:38 <Rugxulo> I just wonder why people bother bragging about portability when all they support is Mac OS X 10.5, Windows 2k or newer, Linux 2.6, etc.
07:34:57 <ehird> What, exactly, would you like to be supported
07:35:11 <Rugxulo> you know what I mean, it's annoying how things are deprecated that work fine
07:36:05 <ehird> Backwards compatibility is a gigantic part of why today's computing sucks.
07:36:16 <ehird> I'm all for dropping the crap
07:37:31 <Rugxulo> but you don't get it, they want to drop 2k, XP, 32-bit, etc.
07:37:40 <ehird> I get it perfectly well.
07:37:48 <ehird> 64-bit x86 has been around since 2003.
07:38:02 <ehird> 2k was released in 2000; XP was released in 2002.
07:38:13 <Rugxulo> no, only 2003 for AMD servers, Intel servers got it in 2004, home users didn't get it (Intel) until 2006
07:38:37 <Rugxulo> Intel was still selling P4s until then (ugh)
07:38:49 <Rugxulo> who knows, they still might (though I doubt it)
07:39:12 <Rugxulo> and you know about the P4, I presume (e.g. not everything "new" is better)
07:39:13 <ehird> they stopped doing pentium 4s in 2008
07:39:42 <ehird> anyway, is there actually a reason you use windows?
07:39:47 <ehird> I mean, apart from masochism...
07:39:59 <Rugxulo> MMX is deprecated, FPU is deprecated, it's all annoying, everybody wants to kill everything that *they* don't use
07:40:08 <Rugxulo> well, it came installed on the machine
07:40:21 <Rugxulo> and I'm not exactly super familiar with *nix (e.g. Linux)
07:40:33 <Rugxulo> and most Linux distros aren't any good
07:40:51 <Rugxulo> or outdated, don't work the ways I want, etc.
07:41:15 <ehird> Linux hasn't sucked since about 2006, and it's been fine since about 2007.
07:41:21 <ehird> It's been great since, eh, 2008
07:41:25 <Rugxulo> their upcoming 9.10 scares me ... too many bleeding edge things
07:41:36 <Rugxulo> potentially will regress a lot in functionality
07:41:50 <Rugxulo> well, the alphas are buggy ;-)
07:42:04 <Rugxulo> and they don't always fix everything before release, so ...
07:42:11 <ehird> have you used 9.04?
07:42:44 <Rugxulo> and I can't even install to a 1 GB flash drive because it's so bloated
07:42:56 <Rugxulo> not saying I'm so super surprised, but damn, very annoying
07:43:06 <ehird> Would you like them to recompress every image as a jpeg?
07:43:12 <ehird> Every system sound?
07:43:23 <ehird> do you want them to hyper-optimise every application binary they include?
07:43:25 <Rugxulo> no, I'm perfectly content with needing 30 GB just to rebuild everything (sarcasm)
07:43:35 <ehird> Yes, because normal Ubuntu users rebuild everything.
07:43:55 <Rugxulo> I don't think "normal" applies to #esoteric ;-)
07:44:09 <ehird> I hate people who want everything to run on ancient, crappy stuff; who want people to spend 80% of their work satisfying 20% of people who could easily upgrade
07:44:17 <ehird> It's such a waste of talent
07:44:52 <Rugxulo> but when things could easily be fixed and certain people refuse (note I'm not talking about Ubuntu here), then that's annoying
07:45:16 <Rugxulo> they just don't care, which is more of a problem than anything technical
07:45:23 <ehird> But you do want them to fit the whole Ubuntu desktop inside 1GB, which would take exorbitant amounts of work and maintenance that could be spent doing much more productive things. The end benefit of this is, uhh, you get to avoid paying a few more bucks for a bigger USB drive.
07:45:39 <Rugxulo> obviously I would install to HD, problem solved
07:45:57 <Rugxulo> the main issue isn't that, it's that they allow you to install to USB but it's more or less useless unless you never install anything ever
07:46:23 <Rugxulo> I'm not just a "surf and e-mail" person, so I can't say that's enough for me
07:46:35 <ehird> So buy a bigger USB stick
07:46:42 <ehird> Shock, horror, extra features take extra space
07:46:57 <Rugxulo> extra features that I didn't ask for, that aren't needed, that should be easily removed (but probably aren't)
07:47:16 <ehird> Oh, that's nice, let's just tailor Ubuntu to exactly what you want
07:47:22 <ehird> [07:39] Rugxulo: […] everybody wants to kill everything that *they* don't use
07:47:30 <Rugxulo> no (although there are a lot of Ubuntu forks, too many IMHO)
07:47:55 <ehird> I can safely say that no, most Ubuntu features are useful.
07:48:04 <ehird> And it's very well polished.
07:49:06 <Rugxulo> and the idea that it does everything right isn't fair
07:49:18 <ehird> then why did you just invent that idea
07:49:26 <Rugxulo> neither Windows nor Ubuntu can cater to everybody, but sometimes they don't even try to do simple things
07:49:39 <ehird> I can assert things too...
07:50:20 <Rugxulo> so, dare I ask, you really expect 100% of home users (and OEMs) to only get 64-bit 4 GB RAM Ubuntu 9.10 computers from now on? I doubt it ...
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07:51:03 <ehird> I could tally up the number of strawman fallacies you've used so far but I'm kinda hoping to spend the rest of the day doing things
07:57:24 <Rugxulo> and BTW, there really should be a Befunge interpreter in Elisp :-)
07:58:04 <Rugxulo> oops, must've missed that it already exists
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08:01:18 <ehird> oh no, not another one of the "let's run a kernel, a scheduler, hardware drivers, ..., and then a woefully bad OS with only one hacky UI element and no task switching" people
08:07:13 <ehird> a windows, emacs and backwards compatibility lover
08:07:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: could i, like, stab you?
08:08:08 <Rugxulo> you could ... except the knife has been deprecated, use phase pistols (coming soon to a store near you)
08:12:20 <Rugxulo> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/BefungeMode
08:12:36 <Rugxulo> had to comment out all the hscroll stuff, but otherwise it works great! :-)
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08:21:01 <Rugxulo> oh well, thanks for the (mostly) nice chat ;-)
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09:16:17 <Deewiant> ehird: CCBI2 isn't out yet in any form, which is why the page doesn't link to it
09:16:25 <ehird> Sure, but it's better :P
09:16:44 <Deewiant> In other ways, it doesn't work at all :-P
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10:30:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
10:31:06 <ehird> ^def stockintro ul (Who are you, where did you come from, how many goats have you sacrificed, etc? Also, http://esolangs.org/.)
10:31:17 <ehird> ^def stockintro ul (Who are you, where did you come from, how many goats have you sacrificed, etc? Also, http://esolangs.org/.)S
10:31:21 <fungot> Who are you, where did you come from, how many goats have you sacrificed, etc? Also, http://esolangs.org/.
10:31:30 <ehird> got tired of saying that all the time...
11:04:41 -!- FireFly has joined.
11:19:33 <ehird> Nostalgia about Ubuntu 5.10. That's a new one for me...
11:19:43 <ehird> 'specially as I never got it working properly
11:25:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> Python is ubiquitous, CCBI has binaries, cfunge sucks <-- an opinion most people in here doesn't seem to share...
11:26:02 <ehird> I was half-wondering how long it'd take for you to come and defend cfunge
11:26:24 <ehird> But sure; if I was in a mood to debunk stupid arguments I'd mention that a lot of people like Windows too
11:28:06 <ehird> Then why did you ask?
11:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, so you meant "windows (except windows ME)" there?
11:28:58 <ehird> I wasn't aware that Windows referred to every single OS
11:29:15 <ehird> Whenever anyone says "I use Windows" in future, I will commend them on their uber multiboot system
11:29:21 <ehird> and ask them how they got windows 1.0 running.
11:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that would be tricky.... what with several versions of windows wanting to be on the first harddrive, and wanting to be on the primary partition marked as bootable
11:30:48 <ehird> Why restrict ourselves chronologically backwards?
11:30:53 <ehird> Ask them what Windows 3000 is like.
11:31:10 <ehird> What about alternate universes? I don't see why we have to stay still in the fifth dimension, either.
11:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, by year 3000 I doubt microsoft still exists... ;P
11:31:59 <ehird> Nintendo was founded in 1889
11:32:08 <ehird> Admittedly they did card games and whorehouses and stuff before games
11:32:16 <AnMaster> well, yes, but that is a difference of roughly 100 years, not 1000 years
11:32:56 <AnMaster> ehird, a difference by an order of magnitude I think?
11:33:03 <ehird> Hmm, wait, they did hotels-in-which-to-have-sex, not necessarily hotels-where-you-can-get-sex.
11:33:14 <ehird> This is clearly an important part of Nintendo's past businesses and must be clarified.
11:33:32 <AnMaster> ehird, "bring your own whore"?
11:34:51 * ehird reads the Arc forum a bit for the lulz
11:35:14 <ehird> Hey, http://dabuttonfactory.com:8080/ is pretty cool.
11:35:24 <ehird> It's... basically tryruby for arc :P
11:36:03 <ehird> http://dabuttonfactory.com:8080/evsrv.arc And the code doesn't look shit, like all other Arc code out there.
11:36:16 <ehird> This person is clearly some sort of mutant that can make the worst of languages work well.
11:37:58 <ehird> Oh, I see, they traded in not being fucking weird and defensive for that power:
11:38:00 <ehird> [[If you have chosen another username, OK, no problem (but I can't guess). If you've not tried it, your choice, but then I'll parse your request as "Gosh palsecam is such a moron, an REPL on the browser has no future[1], performance/privacy issue, blahblahblah, but I'll be glad to steal his code for another more useful purpose that I'll not communicate about".
11:38:00 <ehird> I am, at least I hope, certainly wrong on my analysis, but sorry, that's how I read your message. And obviously, I don't like to be taken for a moron. And obviously, I don't like this kind of "stealing".]]
11:38:08 <ehird> (in response to someone kindly asking for the code)
11:39:50 <ehird> Wow, Arc's REPL works differently from its eval.
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11:42:29 <ehird> Jeez, reading this guy's comments is painful
11:42:38 <oerjan> that topic is depressingly close to my mood today
11:42:43 <ehird> He swears an awful lot and he seems to be permanently... way too bothered about stuff
11:42:58 <ehird> That sword alone can't stop, you know.
11:43:04 <fungot> ehird: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
11:43:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
11:43:45 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
11:44:39 <oerjan> mind you that mood is greatly connected to the fact the neigbor has been using a chainsaw for hours...
11:46:15 <ehird> <oerjan> something about deadness
11:46:18 <ehird> <ehird> even cruder joke
11:46:40 <oerjan> *oerjan something swatter -----###
11:46:41 <ehird> i am crude like oil.
11:47:52 <oerjan> the kind that is not allowed at beaches
11:48:16 <HackEgo> * Ahar is a town and the capital of Ahar County in East Azarbaijan provience, Iran. The town is known on the market place for its Ahar rugs. \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahar \
11:48:31 <ehird> 798uijkmarket place for its ahar rugs
11:48:53 <ehird> "umm yeah, you flew, so what"
11:49:00 <ehird> "it's not like you're a pizza or anything"
11:49:23 <ehird> wow i want one of them
11:49:36 <ehird> it's a butt that you can fris
11:50:04 <ehird> oxymorons can't help it. they were born with a lack of oxygen
11:51:05 <ehird> no, i never started
11:51:53 <oerjan> <ehird> ALL-complete :P
11:52:06 <oerjan> i doubt you can be ALL-complete, for cardinality reasons
11:52:26 <ehird> oerjan: it's buddhists who are one with everyone
11:52:31 <ehird> they don't have cardinals
11:52:35 <ehird> sheesh you're stupid
11:52:44 <oerjan> you would have to find _one_ problem to which all others could be reduced - but then you could immediately use diagonalization to produce a counterexample, i think
11:53:15 <ehird> It was a joke, you know
11:53:19 <oerjan> s/cardinality/diagonalization/ then
11:56:20 <oerjan> that n could be an infinite ordinal, as well
11:56:45 <ehird> I meant co-RE^n as meaning "equivalent to co-{RE^}*int for any integer"
11:57:30 <oerjan> but it's a small step to use ordinals. see brainhype/banana scheme
11:57:44 <ehird> but mine is more... sensical
11:57:53 <ehird> I mean, it doesn't require making any new concepts
11:58:01 <ehird> just take the union of co-re, co-re^re, etc
11:58:39 <oerjan> in other words, co-re^omega. um wait.
11:58:49 <oerjan> should that be ^^ , or something
11:59:37 <oerjan> (not that i've seen ^^ mixed with oracle notation)
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12:00:56 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but ...
12:01:00 <ehird> mathematically equivalent in the result
12:01:02 <ehird> not in the definition
12:01:08 <ehird> since you have to define exactly what that means for ^omega
12:02:11 <oerjan> true, but it's the obvious way if you know ordinals
12:02:58 <ehird> oerjan: see, I'd expect co-re^omega to be something like "RE with an RE^omega oracle"
12:03:05 <ehird> imo co-re^n expresses it better
12:03:08 <ehird> since it's never infinite n
12:03:10 <ehird> just arbitrary finite
12:03:19 <ehird> in which case ^omega is better, ofc
12:03:30 <oerjan> co- just means switching yes and no results
12:03:59 <ehird> oerjan: ignore the co-
12:04:08 <ehird> for the context of the above ↑
12:04:11 <oerjan> ehird: except that still ought to be re^^n
12:04:20 <ehird> I was using fuzzy notation
12:04:27 <ehird> oerjan: but is it arbitrary-finite n or infinite n?
12:04:33 <ehird> or are there two classes, one with each
12:04:49 <ehird> well hm, co-RE^^omega has a self-oracle
12:04:58 <ehird> and co-RE^^n would presumably just have a lesser-than-self oracle
12:07:02 <ehird> your mom's an oracle
12:07:19 <ehird> that's what she said
12:07:37 <oklofok> just came here to tell you that
12:07:40 <ehird> oklofok: i found a magic
12:08:57 <ehird> and then the oracle flew
12:09:19 <oklofok> so you found the magic of insane poetry
12:10:33 <ehird> oklofok: yes!!!!!!!!
12:11:37 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, it'll just be intricate music that does it. <-- i'll refuse to believe metal could do it, no matter how intricate. (see chainsaw above.)
12:12:01 <ehird> oerjan: did you wait until oklofok left before saying that :D
12:12:16 <oerjan> although, technically yes
12:15:18 <oklofok> technically i didn't leave yet
12:15:32 <ehird> oklofok: be angry at oerjan for dissing metal.
12:15:37 <ehird> i think that is an oklofok thing to do
12:15:42 <oklofok> let's see context, i've been skipping on logreading
12:17:13 <oerjan> why is my food tasting funny today
12:17:24 <ehird> oerjan: it's counteracting your bad puns
12:17:34 <oklofok> i agree with oerjan that metal probably doesn't make you smarter, kinda like mozart doesn't either.
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12:17:50 <ehird> oklofok: there's STUDIES!
12:18:16 <ehird> i'd use all my up-to-nine extra IQ points to dislike the mozart
12:18:18 <oerjan> i was mainly referring to the obvious fact that metal turns your brain into mush, although possibly only temporarily.
12:18:18 <oklofok> us mathematicians don't believe in studies
12:18:28 <ehird> oerjan: i don't think that's true.
12:18:49 <oerjan> well metaphorically, not physically.
12:18:53 <ehird> oerjan: there is a rather obvious solution to that
12:19:42 <oerjan> yes, i _have_ occasionally been considering buying something ear plugs
12:19:52 <ehird> i was meaning more "stop listening to it"
12:19:55 <oklofok> oerjan: you don't have to *start* with norwegian black metal
12:19:57 <ehird> oh wait, was that chainsaw thing i joke
12:20:03 <ehird> made out of metal?
12:20:04 <oklofok> even though you're norwegian
12:20:09 <ehird> was it a pun joke oerjan
12:20:27 <oerjan> no, the chainsaw was real. fortunately it's stopped. for now.
12:20:34 <ehird> was that the pun oerjan
12:20:44 <oerjan> but metal does have the same effect on me, more or less
12:20:53 <ehird> but was the joke that chainsaws
12:20:55 <ehird> are made out of metal
12:21:07 <ehird> if you had said yes, this would have been said:
12:21:08 <ehird> i will kill you oerjan.
12:21:10 <oklofok> also burzum should be called white metal, since it's mostly white noise
12:21:21 <oerjan> you will do that anyway. it's destiny.
12:21:22 <ehird> MY FAVOURITE METAL IS MERZBOW
12:21:54 <oklofok> i don't believe in merzbow
12:22:14 <ehird> oklofok: lol i wikipedia'd burzum and the guy murdered his bandmate and then burned down a bunch of churches :D
12:22:25 <oklofok> yeah the story is awesome :D
12:22:37 <ehird> sounds like a nice guy!
12:22:56 <oerjan> he just got out of jail this year
12:23:07 <ehird> "© & ® Varg Vikernes. Do not reproduce, respect the copyrights."
12:23:19 <ehird> you're expecting me to follow a trivial, bad law mister
12:23:25 <ehird> do you see a bit of hypocrisy here :P
12:23:35 <oerjan> ehird: if not, he'll kill you.
12:23:41 <ehird> [[A Scandinavian, for instance, has no good reasons to emotionally react negatively to "nazism"]]
12:23:51 <ehird> Fun fact: You can only disagree with a philosophy if it has a specific aim against you
12:24:07 <ehird> (He then goes on to talk about how nazis are cool or something)
12:24:31 <oerjan> except that they OCCUPIED our country, or something
12:24:55 <ehird> he's saying that the occupiers were cool dudes
12:25:05 <oklofok> "also i like stealing clothes from orphans, then filming cp when they're naked"
12:25:26 <oerjan> oklofok: that an actual quote?
12:25:45 <ehird> oklofok: oerjan is... AnMaster
12:28:09 <ehird> "For each devastated graveyard, one heathen grave is avenged, for each ten churches burnt to ashes, one heathen hof is avenged, for each ten priests or freemasons assassinated, one heathen is avenged"
12:28:22 <ehird> this might sound weird but i think this guy is kind of a dick
12:29:16 <ehird> At the arrest of Vikernes, the police found 150kg explosives and 3,000 rounds of ammunition in Vikernes' home.[28] According to Encyclopedia of White Power Vikernes has stated that these explosives were "intended to blow up Blitz House, the radical leftist and anarchist enclave in Oslo",[16] a plan which "was reportedly on the verge of execution"[16] and only prevented by Vikernes' arrest.
12:29:18 <oerjan> <ehird> Admittedly they did card games and whorehouses and stuff before games <-- i was so delighted when i found out the first part was true, but i can find nothing about whorehouses
12:29:30 <ehird> so he's a nazi who kills people who disagree with him in any wya
12:29:42 <ehird> "love hotels"; not whorehouses though
12:29:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklofok: oerjan is... AnMaster <-- why would you think so?
12:30:03 <ehird> [12:25] oklofok: "also i like stealing clothes from orphans, then filming cp when they're naked"
12:30:04 <ehird> [12:25] oklofok: ->
12:30:04 <ehird> [12:25] oerjan: oklofok: that an actual quote?
12:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it sounds more like something you would say IMO
12:31:20 <ehird> that doesn't even make sense
12:31:29 <ehird> you're trying to assign "using 's or not after that" to a person
12:31:38 <ehird> protip: linguistic patterns vary at such a low level
12:31:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well not ' then. I get confused by that
12:32:14 <oerjan> yes, i could never be AnMaster
12:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway... adding "is" there would have worked too
12:32:22 <ehird> oerjan: lol [[Aarseth was a practitioner of theistic Satanism and also a proponent of violence, totalitarianism and state terrorism]]
12:32:27 <oerjan> probably not even if i tried
12:32:28 <ehird> guess he didn't like it when it happened to him
12:33:18 <ehird> "Satanism comes from religious Christianity, and there it shall stay. I'm a religious person and I will fight those who misuse His name. People are not supposed to believe in themselves and be individualists. They are supposed to OBEY, to be the SLAVES of religion."
12:33:21 <ehird> these guys are hilarious
12:33:39 <ehird> he liked stalin and mao :D
12:34:23 <ehird> "for instance, he was an ardent proponent of sodomy, rape and murder simply because they were evil acts"
12:36:34 <oklofok> iirc vikernes' opinion is killing is a nice thing to do to another person... then again probably he just says anything that sounds gloomy and evil
12:36:44 <oklofok> because it's not very consistent with killing enemies
12:36:52 <ehird> oklofok: he's totally jesus
12:37:18 <ehird> oklofok: so is this where you got your desire to kill someone :D
12:37:47 <ehird> In October 2003, Vikernes failed to return to his low-security prison in Tønsberg, Norway after having been granted a short leave. He was found riding in a stolen Volvo car, which, according to the media, contained an unloaded AG3 automatic rifle, a handgun, numerous large knives, a gas mask, camouflage clothing, a laptop, a compass, a Global Positioning System, various maps and a fake passport (it is thought that Vikernes came to be in possession of this
12:37:48 <ehird> equipment by means of a military barracks). For this thirteen months were added to his sentence, and he was then moved to a maximum-security prison in Trondheim.
12:38:03 <oklofok> i don't have such a desire, i just put it on my todo list!
12:38:53 <ehird> i like how this guy and the guy he killed are both guys who think killing and rape and violence and fascism are awesome
12:39:06 <ehird> but the killer hates communists and religion
12:39:22 <ehird> and the killee loves distorted communism and (distorted) religion
12:39:36 <ehird> "I'm violent in a superior way to you RAAAAARGH"
12:40:29 * oerjan ascribes to the theory that bad people come in pairs, who hate each other
12:40:44 <ehird> oerjan: I loooooooove AnMaster!
12:40:55 * ehird does not want to be bad
12:40:56 <oklofok> the worst is this hardcore metal guy who eats insects
12:41:10 <oklofok> i read "ehird does not want to go to bed"
12:41:15 <ehird> oklofok: i don't think that's ... worse than killing someone :P
12:41:18 <ehird> also, that's true.
12:41:33 <AnMaster> I never claimed I hated ehird...
12:41:48 <oerjan> ehird: wait, are you staying up hideously late now?
12:42:00 <ehird> oerjan: how late is hideously
12:42:03 <oklofok> ehird: worst i know, i don't know vikernes, or anyone like him
12:42:18 <ehird> oklofok: i think that's probably the safest option.
12:42:28 <oklofok> but assuming not on his kill list, might be a fun guy to talk to
12:42:43 <ehird> people like that generally aren't very intellectual
12:42:44 <ehird> [[Vikernes also states that although he is a racist, he hates no-one and that "hatred is irrational"]]
12:43:02 <oklofok> assuming not a total retard, i imagine the insane killers are usually either very bright, or very dumb
12:43:06 <oerjan> ehird: i take that as a yes *evil cackle*
12:43:36 <oerjan> more than 24 hours since you last slept, perhaps
12:43:39 <ehird> oklofok: i think he just starts with severely fucked up, contradictory axioms and works from there, perhaps even logically, though most likely mainly based on emotions
12:43:47 <ehird> oerjan: usually, yes
12:43:59 <ehird> oerjan: most common schedule has been sleeping from 1pm to about 7pm
12:44:05 <ehird> or thereabouts, at least
12:44:13 <ehird> oerjan: today I slept from 8pm to 4am
12:44:18 <ehird> waking up from that was weird
12:44:30 <ehird> "it's night!" "but i've slept eight hours" "umm it's pitch black" "am i meant to turn the light on and get up?"
12:44:36 <oerjan> oh right you're on one of those weird sleep thingies
12:44:49 <ehird> cba to do that atm
12:45:06 <ehird> oerjan: right now I'm on the schedule where i don't sleep until i feel too tired to do stuff alright.
12:45:15 <ehird> and then sleep for however long i sleep
12:45:52 <ehird> though due to me starting it off with a night where i slept at 6am, then progressing to 8am, it's skewed so that I'm mainly awake at night
12:46:03 <ehird> though due to waking _up_ at 4am today, that might change a bit
12:46:38 <oerjan> i see you are on the verge of turning into me, then
12:46:44 <ehird> oerjan: how do you sleep
12:47:02 <ehird> it's much better than before
12:47:29 <ehird> [[There are also two different reviews of this book available that are allegedly written by Varg Vikernes, one on www.burzum.org and one on www.burzum.com. Whereas the review on www.burzum.com is only mildly critical and states "The book is pretty much objective"[57], the review on www.burzum.org states: [bad stuff]]]
12:47:31 <oklofok> as long as oerjan owns me at category theory, i'd swap souls with him anytime
12:47:52 <ehird> oklofok: but there is no such thing!
12:48:54 <oerjan> my sleep is constantly shifting forwards, always. how much varies unpredictably per day, 0-2 hours maybe except when i make an effort to stay up extra long
12:49:08 <ehird> oerjan: so it wraps around all the time? :D
12:49:11 <oklofok> ehird: doesn't mean "swapping souls" isn't a perfectly well-defined thing
12:49:35 <ehird> oerjan: that just means that your schedule is defined by how long you stay up, instead of by when you sleep
12:49:42 <ehird> add that to the fact that your body is used to sleeping N hours and voila
12:50:17 <ehird> oklofok: if you connected your brain to oerjan's body, then added some personality traits of his
12:50:26 <oklofok> as well-defined as time-travel, movie rules apply.
12:50:35 <ehird> but you'd just be oklofok with an annoyingly crippled body and some weird personality traits
12:50:51 <ehird> (no offence to oerjan, but his body is obviously crippled due to being older than oklofok, pretty much by definition)
12:51:55 <oerjan> ehird: oh i'll certainly admit to not being in the best shape
12:53:06 <ehird> even if you were, tho
12:53:19 <ehird> can i fly in that rocket :>
12:53:24 <ehird> sometimes i fly around in space :>
12:53:28 <oerjan> sure, if you manage to climb in
12:53:48 <ehird> ----------------=>:>
12:53:50 <ehird> ------------------------=>:>
12:53:52 <ehird> --------------------------------=>:>
12:53:53 <ehird> ----------------------------------------=>:>
12:53:55 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:53:58 <ehird> --------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:53:59 <ehird> ----------------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:54:00 <ehird> ----------------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:54:07 <oerjan> i said _in_, not on top. i hope you have no troubles with thin air
12:54:15 <ehird> you broke my chain
12:54:18 <ehird> welp gotta fly back up again
12:54:34 <oerjan> i was just trying to prevent you leaving the atmosphere unprotected
12:56:27 <ehird> ----------------=>:>
12:56:30 <ehird> ------------------------=>:>
12:56:35 <ehird> --------------------------------=>:>
12:56:39 <ehird> ----------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:42 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:45 <ehird> --------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:48 <ehird> ----------------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:49 <ehird> ----------------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:53 <ehird> --------------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:56:59 <ehird> ------------------------------------------------=>:>
12:57:10 <ehird> ----------------------------------------=>:>
12:57:19 <ehird> --------------------------------=>:>
12:57:23 <ehird> ------------------------=>:>
12:57:27 <ehird> ----------------=>:>
12:58:20 <ehird> tsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssh
12:58:30 <oerjan> wait a moment i realized maybe you _are_ inside, but in that case you're not having a very good time
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12:58:50 <ehird> from this perspective my eyes are on the ground :>
12:58:55 <ehird> oerjan: also, you interrupted it.
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12:58:59 <ehird> now i have to do it all again.
12:59:03 <oerjan> you were safely landed
12:59:09 <oerjan> noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
12:59:18 <ehird> don't worry I won't :P
12:59:24 <ehird> but it was good wasn't it?
12:59:33 <ehird> I especially like how I waited a little bit after the two peaks
12:59:55 <ehird> also, I like how it somehow slowed down as it started to land
13:00:00 <ehird> maybe an anti-gravity landing platform
13:00:56 <oerjan> i don't know, not my platform
13:01:06 <ehird> i didn't ask you :P
13:02:49 <ehird> as i was about to say wrt your body,
13:03:08 <ehird> oerjan: don't worry, I'll make sure I code you in as the first to get a mech body in the seed AI
13:03:23 <ehird> you'll have to stand in line with everyone else to evaporate in the clouds though
13:03:25 <ehird> I will only go so far
13:04:40 <oerjan> "evaporate in the clouds"? i think i may not be up to date on these technical AI eschatology terms
13:05:27 <ehird> aka "relocate your mind to multiple redundant datacenters, dump any sort of body, and spend your days zooming around the cosmos looking at nebulas like in sci-fi films"
13:06:00 <oerjan> i'm sure that would be boring eventually
13:06:08 <ehird> oerjan: I may be joking!
13:06:17 <ehird> although apart from the last bit that's the best outcome imo
13:06:18 <oerjan> which is probably why they started the earth simulation anyway
13:06:34 <ehird> ofc i'd like to be in a physical body of some sort, but you can do that via virtual reality
13:06:39 <ehird> which is, as a bonus, tweakable
13:06:48 <ehird> and i guess it'd be fine to connect to a physical body every once in a while
13:07:24 <oerjan> we could roam the cosmos possessing primitive aliens
13:08:32 <ehird> i don't think that would be very moral.
13:08:58 <oerjan> moral gets boring eventually
13:09:53 <ehird> although I say this as someone who is currently possessing a 14 year old boy 23127 "Milky Way"/418871 "Sol System"/1 "Sol"/3 "Terra" homo sapiens sapiens body
13:25:29 <ehird> hey! in an <ol> you can do <li value="number">
13:25:35 <ehird> instead of a bunch of <ol start="number">s
13:25:41 <ehird> ↑ ignore those lines
13:31:55 <oerjan> yes, the world must not know this secret
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14:01:10 <ehird> lol, a weblog entry with the slug /atom causes it to display an atom feed of that month
14:01:13 <ehird> due to the weblog software
14:01:24 <ehird> a little bit of fail there
14:01:44 <ehird> especially since the weblog uses post summaries in the feed
14:01:48 <ehird> and thus you can't read the post
14:11:24 <ehird> Steve Ditko, co-creator and original artist of Spider-Man.
14:11:24 <ehird> http://www.dinosaurgardens.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/avenging-world.pdf
14:11:31 <ehird> Objectivist to the max.
14:11:41 <ehird> I can't even read it, it's all over the place with vitrol.
14:11:56 <ehird> It's uh, pretty freaky.
14:12:16 <ehird> "They're nigh-unreadable. I mean, I guess someone relishing re-reading a two-hundred page monologue might see some fun in them but, jesus, I still haven't gotten through a single one. "
14:12:19 <ehird> sounds like ayn rand to me
14:13:05 <ehird> lol - "With great power comes great responsibility to be a total self-interested jerk."
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15:26:04 <oklofok> i don't want to spend more than a second on a square when i'm reading a comic
15:26:15 <oklofok> ...i guess that's mostly because i hate comics though
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15:27:14 <oklofok> actually i have to read a tex willer comic tonight
15:35:11 <ehird> oklofok: tex will, er, mock this terrible joke
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16:20:02 <ehird> oklofog: fog you, you fokking oklofo[kg]
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17:31:30 <ehird> "Monster.Dildo.Cocks.XXX.DVDrip.XviD-GraceNotes" —reddit
17:31:43 <ehird> GOT SOMETHING TO TELL US Gracenotes???
17:32:25 <Gracenotes> people love my nickname, they use it for all their porn warez distributin' groups, I tell them no, but they insist
17:44:18 <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos?
17:44:23 <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks?
17:44:29 <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
17:44:50 <ehird> They are monster dildo cocks.
17:45:38 <ehird> `addquote <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
17:45:39 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
17:46:18 <ehird> GREGOR HAS QUESTIONS ABOUT THESE THINGS AND HE DESIRES ANSWERS
17:46:26 <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
17:46:34 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
17:46:45 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
17:47:28 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
17:47:56 <HackEgo> 75|* ehird disables javascript
17:48:01 <HackEgo> 49|<ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
17:49:43 <ehird> Aaaaaaaand one more
17:49:46 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
17:51:27 <Deewiant> Hmm, looks like another ehird topic
17:51:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Fungot topic, actually
17:52:07 <ehird> Including the cut-off
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18:14:37 <Warrigal> I wonder what Deewiant meant when e said that reality isn't a part of physics.
18:21:01 <ehird> "15-inch OLED HDTV"
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19:04:11 <ehird> [on anarchism] "So you advocate transferring power from democratically elected government-run armies to private armies?"
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19:53:52 <Sgeo> Guess what 2*3+4 in J evaluates to
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20:03:05 <Deewiant> Warrigal: That's why we have logs, so that you can grep
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20:27:05 * Sgeo enters the 5th dimension with J
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22:06:47 <Warrigal> I don't know what semantics would result in that being 14.
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22:07:42 <oerjan> Warrigal: not semantics, precedence
22:08:18 <oerjan> i assume J inherits from APL the collect-all-operators from the right principle
22:08:46 <Warrigal> The obvious way that could equal 14 is 2*(3+4).
22:09:01 <Warrigal> The non-obvious way that could equal 14, which is what I saw, is 2+(3*4).
22:09:19 <Deewiant> That looks like a sweet obfuscation for an esolang
22:09:51 <Deewiant> Before evaluating any expression, reverse the order of operators in it
22:20:33 <Sgeo> How TF is something that searches lists [or arrays or n-rank thingamabobies] related to something that makes a list of numbers???
22:22:25 <Sgeo> (For non-J programmers: i. is what you'd call a function. It can accept one or two arguments. If it's given one argument, it makes a list of numbers from 0 to its argument. If given two arguments, it finds where the second argument is listed in the first
22:22:37 <Sgeo> (note: I didn't use J terminology)
22:22:46 <oklofok> why should they be related?
22:23:02 <Sgeo> Because they're both i.
22:23:21 <Sgeo> Why put unrelated things together in the same verb (the J term for function)
22:23:36 <oklofok> because not everything divides neatly into pairs
22:23:53 <oklofok> but, i guess you could've done 4 i. 7 = 4 5 6 7 or something
22:24:03 <oklofok> that's at least somewhat useful
22:24:25 <Sgeo> 4 + i. 7 works just as well
22:24:33 <Sgeo> For that, so it's not needed
22:25:57 * Sgeo is half asleep. Not a good way to learn J
22:25:58 <oklofok> given the correction, it's far less nice
22:36:25 * Sgeo vaguely hopes that posting an AskReddit style question in /r/programming is ok
22:39:29 <oerjan> Sgeo: i _think_ those are usually done as self posts, although only from what i've observed
22:39:54 <oerjan> (and since i have never registered, i don't know how to do it anyhow)
22:57:20 <Sgeo> Why are forks easier to understand than hooks?
22:58:27 <oerjan> well it's rather difficult to eat with hooks, in general
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23:45:57 * Sgeo re-shapes oerjan
23:51:10 <Sgeo> Indexing is complicated
23:51:24 <Sgeo> < 2 2 $ oerjan
23:52:16 * oerjan does not recognize the language
23:53:18 <Sgeo> Reshapes you into a 2x2 array, and puts you in a box
23:59:21 <FireFly> '-' when the mem is 0 is undefined in BF, right?
00:01:01 <FireFly> Eg. wrapping or similar isn't really necessary in the implementation?
00:02:10 <coppro> most implementations specify how they handle numbers
00:02:16 <coppro> wrapping to 255 is common
00:02:35 <coppro> but I wouldn't call it undefined; it's generally expected that -+ will always leave the cell unaltered
00:03:16 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about implementations using church numerals that bombed on decrementing 0
00:03:41 <oerjan> since church numerals cannot be negative
00:09:13 <FireFly> I guess I can move my memory events down a bit
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00:20:58 <Sgeo> There's no way I'm going to remember anything about J tomorrow
00:22:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: so are you that faceless guy? :)
00:23:28 <oerjan> someone who posted a J AskReddit-like self post in r/programming
00:24:32 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9f5g5/attempting_to_learn_jit_makes_me_cry_any_advice/
00:26:34 <oerjan> impossible, there cannot be two people learning J simultaneously...
00:46:28 <FireFly> I played around with J some time during the spring
00:48:08 <Sgeo> Do you remember it?
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01:18:02 <FireFly> Now I think I have an RMXP implementation of BF.. thought severely limited, not supporting input and the only output is numerical
01:18:45 <FireFly> without using the built-in scripting (ruby), that is
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04:32:21 <GregorR> My peppermint soda is a big hit with people who are TOTALLY NOT ME.
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05:14:43 <GregorR> Opinions from people who have never tried it: Mixed :P
05:15:29 * oklofok just got back disappointing exam results
05:18:53 <Gracenotes> okay.. one more day and high speed university connection.. relative to wireless at least
05:19:32 <oklofok> i'm satisfied if irc works
05:22:19 <oklofok> irc often magically works even when i can't make a connection to the internets
05:22:42 <oklofok> of course it's probably because the connection exists already, and pixies are preventing the forming of new ones
05:22:51 <oklofok> but it's very magical still
05:28:34 <coppro> pikhq has had the same problem
05:30:36 <oklofok> i used to, but i forgot to pay the net bill again, and the neighbor's net doesn't seem to do it.
05:30:57 <oklofok> which is good, because it might be rude to go flip their modem thingie on/off
05:34:49 <coppro> just do it from the undefended web interface :P
05:36:10 <oklofok> i'm not sure i'm tech savvy enough, took me quite a while to even understand what you meant
05:37:55 <oklofok> third night of sitting in a car, watching an empty yard
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09:49:39 <oklofok> walking on the bridge, i was sure i could fly
09:49:56 <oklofok> and when i saw a tree, i could've been a squirrel
09:50:25 <oklofok> luckily i can sleep in just three and a half hours.
09:51:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, err ok. Sure you feel all right?
09:51:16 <AnMaster> maybe you need a bit MORE sleep than that
09:51:37 <oklofok> i can sleep *in* 3.5 hours, that is, after that amount of time
09:52:07 <oklofok> before that, i need to play the guitar. that's probably going to work just fine, seeing as i'm basically hallusinating
09:52:17 <oklofok> (at least i feel i could start to)
09:53:38 <oklofok> sleeping 3 hour nights feels interesting after getting used to 12
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10:36:44 <ehird> 14:36:25 * Sgeo vaguely hopes that posting an AskReddit style question in /r/programming is ok
10:36:53 <ehird> it's generally discouraged to not find things out yourself...
10:36:57 <ehird> you ask an awful lot of qs
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10:52:19 <ehird> does anyone know how much a typical 2.5" notebook hard drive weighs?
10:52:19 <Dewio> haha. Oh shit... I unplugged a light in my computer corner a couple of times. My LAN would go down... looks like internet was too. How worrying.
10:52:41 <Dewio> ehird: not much... couple hundred grams?
10:52:57 <ehird> Dewio: yah, but that matters at this scale, so that's quite vague :)
10:53:05 <ehird> I guess single/double platter changes it
10:53:23 <Dewio> find one of those PDF data sheets, they have everything
10:53:28 <ehird> Everyone knows that it varies, anyway! http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vistahardware/thread/720108ee-0a9c-4090-b62d-bbd5cb1a7605
10:57:36 <ehird> Dewio: unfortunately I don't know the brand; guess i'll have to try and find it out
11:01:39 <ehird> ehh, I'll just estimate it
11:01:50 <ehird> single platter = 250g
11:01:57 <ehird> double platter=400g
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11:03:23 <ehird> and it seems that an SSD weighs about 81g
11:04:04 <ehird> now the question is, how much does a notebook CD burner weigh... hmm
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11:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to do something that is probably insane.
11:20:48 <ehird> I'll jump off a bridge too
11:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to dig out my red hat 5.0 cds
11:20:58 <AnMaster> and install them in virtualbox
11:21:15 <ehird> I thought you meant on modern hardware
11:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well virtualbox simulates modern hardware so...
11:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it has a 2.4 kernel too
11:22:06 * AnMaster remembers the old make xconfig...
11:22:29 <ehird> Not pure X protocol? :-(
11:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure... it was SO long ago
11:22:49 <ehird> I mean without even xlib
11:23:09 <AnMaster> make xconfig under 2.6 kernels uses QT btw
11:23:50 <AnMaster> I can only find red hat 6.0 cds...
11:23:58 <AnMaster> I know I have 5.0 ones around somewhere
11:24:13 <ehird> Try and make X11 run on Linux 0.1
11:24:29 <AnMaster> ehird, would need to patch the kernel a lot for it
11:24:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It comes with a Swedish keyboard layout though!
11:24:58 <ehird> That'll save you from, like, one stub.
11:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah it is a good default
11:25:31 <AnMaster> weird it isn't default any longer
11:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> That'll save you from, like, one stub." <-- ?
11:25:49 <ehird> (You don't seriously find that weird, do you?)
11:26:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Stubs are the metric unit for stubbed toes.[1]
11:26:05 <ehird> [1]: http://www.daisyowl.com/comic/2009-04-06
11:26:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what the hell is the thing above it supposed to be?
11:27:13 <ehird> "This futon" might be a hint, huh.
11:27:46 <ehird> If you have some sort of insatiable urge to figure out any sort of context for it, http://www.daisyowl.com/comic/2009-03-27
11:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, thought it was the instrument
11:27:58 <ehird> ...The...futon...instrument.
11:35:14 <ehird> Ergo your wrong bitch.
11:36:17 <ehird> ((Meanwhile, AnMaster is oblivious)
11:37:54 <ehird> "Moldover's latest CD has a case, which comes with a theremin built into it."
11:37:58 <ehird> Afhjfdgfgjkdfgksjfdhgksdfjghl O_O
11:38:06 <ehird> I will buy it, no matter what music it contains HOLY SHIT
11:38:09 <ehird> http://blogs.westword.com/backbeat/moldovertheremincase.jpg
11:38:17 <ehird> Wow. wow wow wow wow wow. wow.
11:39:07 <AnMaster> ehird, would be a very basic one I guess?
11:39:10 <ehird> It has a headphone port
11:39:16 <ehird> AnMaster: not much to theremins, really
11:39:21 <ehird> but sure, it won't be high-quality
11:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, but I meant as in "low quality"
11:39:51 <ehird> But the good ones range like £500-£3,000
11:40:01 <ehird> The one I got second-hand for £200 was probably about £500 new
11:40:42 <HackEgo> UK 200 = 2 311.62777 Swedish kronor
11:40:42 <HackEgo> A history of operating systems, by Neal Stephenson, the author of such novels as 'Snow Crash', 'The Diamond Age' and 'Zodiac'. \ www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
11:40:54 <ehird> `calc 200 £ in SEK
11:40:55 <HackEgo> 200 UK = 2 311.62777 Swedish kronor
11:40:59 <ehird> `calc 500 £ in SEK
11:41:03 <ehird> `calc 2,000 £ in SEK
11:41:07 <HackEgo> 500 UK = 5 779.06944 Swedish kronor
11:41:08 <HackEgo> 2000 UK = 23 116.2777 Swedish kronor
11:41:34 <ehird> AnMaster: They're legitimate musical instruments
11:41:39 <ehird> How much does a good piano cost?
11:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and the answer is: a metric fuckton more
11:42:06 <ehird> Hmm, the track on the stite of the artist who did it is good, too bad the CD+theremin costs $50
11:42:21 <HackEgo> 50 US$ = 355.285223 Swedish kronor
11:43:19 <AnMaster> I start playing something in vlc or rythmbox or whatever
11:43:33 <AnMaster> and it assigns it to one software "channel" or whatever the term is
11:43:43 <AnMaster> then it jumps a few times, causing audible pops
11:43:54 <ehird> Sounds like what's known as a bvug.
11:44:01 <ehird> Like, with your drivers or sth.
11:44:07 <ehird> That isn't a reason to _hate_ PulseAudio
11:44:15 <ehird> Just a reason not to use it since it doesn't work well with your config combination
11:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well I checked with that pulseaudio channel info thingy and noticed it happened when it jumped channels
11:44:52 <ehird> You aren't listening to what I'm saying
11:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Intel HD Audio thingy is the driver
11:45:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well I only have one system with pulseaudio. On my desktop I use jack
11:45:31 <ehird> You aren't listening to what I'm saying
11:45:43 <ehird> [11:44] ehird: That isn't a reason to _hate_ PulseAudio
11:45:43 <ehird> [11:44] ehird: Just a reason not to use it since it doesn't work well with your config combination
11:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well... ubuntu uses it. not sure how I would go about removing it and replacing it with dmix...
11:46:12 <AnMaster> since I never used dmix due to my desktop having a hardware mixer
11:46:26 <ehird> or, try and fix pulseaudio
11:46:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well apt-get yes to remove pulseaudio, but how to get it to use something else instead is the question here..
11:46:59 <ehird> Install another thing
11:47:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well alsa+dmix is already there below somewhere, so it should just be a case of *shudder* messing with the asoundrc and openalrc and various other sound library configs
11:47:58 <ehird> It is done automatically.
11:48:09 <ehird> You can just "sudo apt-get remove --purge pulseaudio".
11:48:11 <AnMaster> There are more sound libraries than there are user space programs using sound libraries...
11:48:33 <ehird> If it doesn't work, your system is fucking weird, which is probable.
11:48:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it *is* ubuntu we're talking here
11:48:51 <ehird> Of course it just works
11:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so ubuntu has it set up to automatically fall back on something else hm
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11:49:03 <ehird> Yes, it's done with alternatives or something similar
11:49:42 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Will do that in a bit. ATM it is compiling something.
11:50:01 <ehird> Try ossv4, it's probably an apt-get away :P
11:50:15 <AnMaster> And why am I compiling something? I bet you wonder. Well in this case due to being a developer of said project
11:50:26 <ehird> I was not wondering that at all.
11:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about trackpoint vs. touchpad: I observed it a bit, well I'm faster with touchpad, but more accurate with trackpoint
11:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, an external mouse beats both though
11:52:29 <ehird> if I wanted to rely on external peripherals I'd buy a tower
11:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can't do image editing without an external mouse
11:53:13 <AnMaster> but I don't do that a lot on the laptop
11:53:27 <AnMaster> due to it being so high res it is almost impossible to see what you are doing
11:53:38 <ehird> If I wanted to be a photographer, I'd buy a Mac Pro, a 30" Eizo, and a high-end camera
11:53:49 <ehird> Thankfully, I don't
11:54:06 <ehird> Even if I wanted to I'd probably abstain, because of, uhh, money.
11:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, not that laptop with an extra 10" screen?
11:54:35 <ehird> So pretty much instantly disqualified for anything involving colours
11:54:44 <ehird> IPS are the thick ones
11:54:56 <ehird> TN are the cheap ones that invert unless you're looking directly at them
11:55:13 <ehird> AnMaster: As for screen realestate,
11:55:20 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/10/gscreen-creating-rugged-dual-screen-laptop-for-animated-frogs-an/
11:55:24 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/27/dual-screen-gscreen-laptop-gets-pictured-hopefully-launching-th/
11:55:34 <AnMaster> ehird, my desktop one doesn't invert except when you are close to looking along it
11:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster: It distorts the colours, at least
11:55:48 <ehird> You just don't notice
11:55:57 <ehird> All TN displays are absolutely horrible, pretty much
11:56:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well not a lot until at very far angle
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12:05:37 <ehird> You know what the bendable, transparent OLED displays should also be?
12:05:48 <ehird> Buy a sheet of display, cut out to fit!
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12:12:42 <ehird> It would be awesome.
12:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, btw touchpad on my thinkpad is a bit cramped.
12:13:02 <ehird> That's nice. Mine won't have one :P
12:13:12 <ehird> Infinitely cramped, you could say
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12:22:09 <AnMaster> "Lenovo's W700ds is a monster machine for sure; a freakish implementation of a power-user's wishlist created with little regard for practical concerns like portability or cost." <-- nice summary.
12:22:18 <ehird> gScreen is the better
12:22:35 <ehird> Although I don't know if it does RAID
12:22:51 <ehird> Link them together as one CPU box
12:22:53 <ehird> I'm sure BSD can do that
12:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no built in colour calibrator. Or tablet..
12:23:03 <ehird> Yes, but two 17" screens, dammit
12:23:15 <ehird> (or maybe just 15"; not sure. they're doing 13" too tho)
12:23:21 <ehird> So plug them together
12:23:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, it's a DIGITIZER. :P
12:23:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but they are often called wacom tablets iirc
12:23:59 <ehird> I was parroting Lenovo.
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, why not remake it as dual screen tablet computer
12:24:52 <AnMaster> that would be like awesomeish freakishy
12:25:08 <ehird> 30" tablet notebook, plz.
12:25:30 <ehird> No, it works with your fingers too. :P
12:26:25 <ehird> Mh, I need to build a wearable computer
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12:29:06 <ehird> I wish BeagleBoard was a little less ... underpowered.
12:29:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Mh, I need to build a wearable computer <-- a 30" wearable one XD
12:29:29 <ehird> But a heatsink and a fan on my shoulders sounds unfun.
12:29:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Subjectively, that's how big the displays look, yes.
12:29:55 <ehird> The black-'n-read Private Eye one looks like a 60" screen at 10 feet
12:30:30 <ehird> Terrible DPI for a 60" screen :P
12:30:43 <ehird> AnMaster: re: tablet - I'll probably use a trackpoint for the mousing
12:30:55 <ehird> due to anything that requires moving being awkwar
12:32:24 <ehird> Wow, BeagleBoards only come with one USB port
12:32:34 <ehird> I wonder what the smallest USB hub in the world is :P
12:32:53 <ehird> I gotta stuff WiFi, 3G, and all my IO devices on it
12:33:00 <ehird> Though it might have PS/2 for the keyboard/mouse :P
12:33:25 <ehird> well, it also has DVI
12:33:28 <ehird> so the display is ok
12:36:17 <ehird> otoh, I don't know of any more easy-to-buy, works-as-is heatsinkless, small ARM boards
12:36:20 <ehird> apart from gumstix
12:36:25 <ehird> but they're not more powerful
12:36:31 <ehird> and ais says they break a lot
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12:57:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you need that for?
12:57:34 <ehird> Computer gotta go somewhere, ya ken
12:57:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use a Server ATX size mobo?
12:57:59 <ehird> For... very obvious reasons.
12:58:00 <AnMaster> would fit nicely in a large backpack
12:58:12 <ehird> Heck, even the processor:
12:58:27 <ehird> Needs heatsink = very hot and heavy
12:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, heat? nice during cold winters
12:58:35 <ehird> Probably needs fan = noisy, hot, heavy, easy to jam
12:59:03 <ehird> a Beagle Board can fit into a very big pocket; it's 7.6 cm on all sides (not depth...)
12:59:11 <ehird> well not "very" big, just big
12:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, could break easily, you need a sturdy box to put it in
12:59:44 <ehird> No, just an anti-static bag
12:59:50 <ehird> And a zip on the pocket
12:59:57 <ehird> Should do the trick
13:00:05 <ehird> It IS made out of copper or whatever
13:00:13 <ehird> And there's no moving parts
13:00:25 <ehird> So if you bend your pockets to hell regularly, I guess
13:00:31 <ehird> Not sure how that would work
13:00:55 <ehird> Yes, well, don't put it in a back pocket.
13:00:56 <AnMaster> don't put it in your back pocket!
13:01:27 <ehird> The main problem with a wearable - okay, not the main one, just yet another one - is the keyboard.
13:01:39 <ehird> I have rather unrealistic demands. I want to be able to code on this thing.
13:01:41 <AnMaster> ehird, You need whatever star trek uses...
13:02:01 <ehird> Don't they just have wearable transporters
13:02:12 <ehird> Yes, but there's a reason those computers are stationary :P
13:02:39 <AnMaster> ehird, or not. They are on space ships, which are moving...
13:03:05 <ehird> Because they're more like ships
13:03:05 <AnMaster> I mean... flying is closer than sailing to traveling in space
13:03:19 <ehird> Airplanes are just a string of seats for the mostpart
13:03:33 <ehird> Spaceships have roomy rooms and levels and stuff
13:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, there are lots of planes that have more than one level though
13:04:09 <ehird> But it's still more like a ship
13:09:42 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/Four-Legs-Bad-Good-hardcover/dp/0618809090
13:09:51 <ehird> I think this may be an inappropriate name for a children's book
13:11:24 <oklofok> AnMaster: "ship" is a general world that can mean any nice big travelling machine.
13:12:21 <oklofok> you can use it for a plain as well, technically, space plain would be more restricting, space ship doesn't imply it's closer to the sea kinda ships than planes
13:12:40 <oklofok> the wording may have been slightly confusing
13:12:54 <ehird> oklofok is a very plane man
13:13:00 <oklofok> AnMaster: "ship" could also mean a big flying machine, in my expert opinion
13:13:04 <oklofok> don't ask ehird, what would he know
13:13:42 <oklofok> ehird: please tell AnMaster what i'm trying to say
13:13:59 <ehird> he knows what you mean
13:14:11 <AnMaster> I'm literally laughing out loud atm
13:14:46 <ehird> you are a failure, oklofok. :P
13:15:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, yes if it was only once the typo would have gone un-noticed. But when it happened twice after each other I thought it was intentional
13:15:57 <ehird> a sail full of found and fury
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13:16:23 <oklofok> but when i'm struggling to get my thoughts out, i rarely intentionally encrypt them
13:16:39 <oerjan> that's what you _think_
13:16:42 <oklofok> how fucking hard can it be to explain a word is more general than someone thinks
13:16:56 <ehird> General oklofok! Atten-SHUN!
13:17:37 <oerjan> General Attenborough! Atten-FOK!
13:17:51 <ehird> i just had the image of david attenborough having sex
13:18:35 <AnMaster> <oerjan> that's what you _think_ <-- and that's what she _said_!
13:18:38 <oklofok> you should've seen me at band training, the drummer had to constantly correct my actions (outside play), "switch the amp on", "don't forget your X" for about 3 items when leaving etc
13:19:06 <oklofok> and like "oh, right, i'm awake, let's obey"
13:23:01 <oerjan> wikipedia seems to list no military attenboroughs :/
13:26:43 <ehird> http://www.marco.org/172461410
13:26:52 <ehird> 10Mbit/s cable internet
13:26:55 <ehird> for what is $52/mo today
13:27:04 <ehird> and you could pay more for a 100Mbit version
13:27:13 <ehird> internet service has truly regressed
13:37:03 * ehird decides to try and write a game using Gambit-C scheme and SDL or something
13:39:58 <ehird> gambit's c linking stuff seems quite good.
13:42:43 <Deewiant> Are there any interesting "simple" graphics libs like _why's Shoes (which is for GUIs, not graphics, but anyway)
13:42:58 <ehird> Shoes can do graphics too, but hmm
13:43:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Processing (not a lib, but eh) for one
13:43:27 <Deewiant> Ah, true, I'd forgotten about that one
13:43:52 <ehird> Deewiant: If you want a nicer, more functional-y language for Processing, try http://technically.us/spde/About
13:44:00 <ehird> Can't think of anything else off the top of my head
13:44:11 <ehird> These things tend to want to take over the whole environment for simplicity reasons
13:44:17 <ehird> even shoes is quite isolated
13:44:48 <ehird> Deewiant: If you just want to push some pixels in the IO monad, haskell has a nice gd biniding
13:44:53 <ehird> But that kinda sucks for anything more
13:45:20 <Deewiant> There didn't seem to be anything suitably nice FRP stuff
13:45:31 <ehird> FRP and simple doesn't really uhhhhh mix
13:45:58 <ehird> ((SICP)) has what you need.
13:46:13 <ehird> (SICP is the definition of what is a thing)
13:46:42 <Deewiant> I don't want to code the stuff myself and what SICP gives readymade is a bit limited :-P
13:47:05 <ehird> http://butnotyet.tumblr.com/post/175132533/the-story-of-a-simple-and-dangerous-kernel-bug ;; Yikes
13:47:13 <ehird> Deewiant: SICP even has graphics stuff?
13:47:47 <Deewiant> I recall something like that in the Abelson-Sussman lectures
13:47:56 <Deewiant> Might not have been in the book
13:48:05 <ehird> Don't you even *know*.
13:48:45 <ehird> Yes, but Abelson isn't The Abelson, as far as I'm aware.
13:49:30 <ehird> I am going to have to demand a citation
13:49:51 <Deewiant> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
13:50:03 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Abelson
13:50:07 <ehird> I don't see any "The Abelson" there.
13:50:18 <ehird> Oh, nor even "The Sussman"; I conclude that this page is an evil fabrication.
13:50:20 <Deewiant> Nor do I see any "The Sussman" so I guess we were both wrong
13:50:33 <ehird> No, he is obviously The Sussman. This is self-evident.
13:50:51 <Deewiant> TheSussmanness is as self-evident as TheAbelsonness
13:51:03 <ehird> Your thinking is unscientific and ultimately destructive.
13:51:57 <Deewiant> I haven't really pent before so I can't repent now can I
13:52:27 <ehird> You attempt to speak deeply, but you have not achieved Satori. Please cease and desist.
13:53:15 <ehird> I am disappointed in you, student.
13:56:42 <ehird> ˝| : I am pretty sure this is a segmentation fault or something
13:58:01 <ehird> GNU male 77.4 released 3001-07-42
13:58:17 <ehird> 1 The Sussman Dear Lord, please let people know my name.
13:58:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
13:58:34 <ehird> But I don't need to.
13:59:40 <ehird> /bin /absolutely_not_cthulhu /kernel /lib /home /boring_system_stuff
14:00:15 <ehird> /some_sort_of_proc_shit /filesystem_drivers /god_I_hate_being_an_operating_system /all_the_rest_of_the_boring_system_stuff
14:00:51 <ehird> No such directory: root
14:01:10 <ehird> Too fucking lazy to: tree
14:01:59 <ehird> (Try meditating or something)
14:02:42 <ehird> /adam /eve /grunt /urgh /eurr /fafa /dookadoo Too many files in directory, aborting
14:03:19 <ehird> adam: original_sin divorce_papers
14:03:23 <ehird> eve: original_sin apple
14:04:09 <ehird> divorce_papers: Microsoft Word document
14:04:17 <ehird> apple: It's, uhh, an apple
14:04:51 <Deewiant> file /absolutely_not_cthulhu/* # Let's get this show on the road
14:05:27 <ehird> fhtagn: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:06:00 <Deewiant> mv home/eve/apple /absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:06:51 <Deewiant> ls -l home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:07:10 <Deewiant> Should be separate for each, no
14:07:14 <ehird> absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:07:40 <ehird> info: Terminal type unknown
14:08:04 <Deewiant> stat home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:08:58 <Deewiant> stat home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn | grep Access | grep Uid | awk '{print $2}' # IWANTTHEPERMISSIONSDAMMIT
14:09:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, I liked the IWC annotation today btw
14:09:40 <ehird> apple: Access: like a whore! Uid: snake
14:09:51 <ehird> fhtagn: Access: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:09:58 <Deewiant> chown root:root home home/eve absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:10:09 <ehird> # In the grim future of the universe, awk does nothing
14:10:25 <Deewiant> chmod ugo+x home home/eve absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:10:34 <ehird> No such directory: home
14:11:14 <ehird> /captured_souls /inner_sphere_of_evil /absolutely_not_cthulhu /demonic_systematic_happenings /tools_of_torture /instruments_of_torture
14:11:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, me too.
14:11:48 <ehird> /tools_of_torture/ls
14:12:17 <oerjan> these cthulhux systems are so confusing
14:12:19 <Deewiant> # You sure ls isn't a shell builtin then? :-P
14:12:39 <ehird> SECRET_LAIR=/tools_of_torture
14:12:46 <ehird> HIDDEN_COMPARTMENT=/instruments_of_torture
14:13:39 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, me too. <-- XD
14:13:45 <ehird> GOOD=not...really, no
14:14:01 <Deewiant> env | grep -e EVIL -e GOOD -e NEUTRAL
14:14:03 <ehird> Segmentation fault
14:14:12 <ehird> EVIL=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:15:05 <ehird> Name Used Available Mount
14:15:34 <ehird> /demonic_systematic_happenings/fabric_of_'pataphysics ∞ ∞ /
14:16:01 <Deewiant> umount demonic_systematic_happenings/fabric_of_\'pataphysics
14:16:13 <ehird> Are you sure? (y/N)
14:16:47 <ehird> Are you not sure? (y/N)
14:17:05 <ehird> Aren't you not not unsure about not doing that? (y/n)
14:17:23 <oerjan> what does logic have to do with cthulhu?
14:18:41 <ehird> /libevil.so /useless_cruft
14:19:13 <Deewiant> chmod 777 tools_of_torture/libevil.so; rm -rf tools_of_torture/libevil.so
14:20:02 <ehird> instruments are libraries
14:20:11 <ehird> /libnotevil.so /useless_cruft
14:21:07 <Deewiant> chmod 777 tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so; rm -rfv tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so; ls tools_of_torture
14:21:28 <ehird> Removing tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so
14:22:03 <Deewiant> rm -rfv tools_of_torture instruments_of_torture
14:22:31 <ehird> tools_of_torture/useless_cruft/libnotevil.so: Permission denied
14:22:36 <ehird> Removing instruments_of_torture
14:22:55 <ehird> # (Note: yes, this is winnable :P)
14:23:27 <ehird> # I'm far too lazy to write out every human being ever, dude
14:23:48 <ehird> /a //b //c /£¢`˘ˀSegmentation fault$
14:23:53 <ehird> /a /b /c /£¢`˘ˀSegmentation fault$
14:24:11 <ehird> # Deewiant: Operating on infinite amounts of data at once can lead to weirdness
14:25:37 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /a
14:25:40 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /b
14:25:41 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /c
14:25:50 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:25:51 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:25:54 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:25:56 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:25:58 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:26:00 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:26:04 <ehird> # (Spot the clue!)
14:26:37 <ehird> .: Directory exists
14:26:52 <ehird> # (Swing and a miss)
14:28:35 <ehird> /bin /absolutely_not_cthulhu /kernel /lib /home /boring_system_stuff
14:28:54 <ehird> # (No, you're not at square one)
14:29:21 <ehird> EEXACTLYTHESAMEASBEFORE
14:30:00 <ehird> absolutely_not_cthulhu: No such file
14:30:22 <ehird> # Is this meant to be logical?
14:30:29 <ehird> /how /dare /you /disturb /me /mortal
14:30:49 <ehird> /absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:32:24 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:34:04 <ehird> # Don't expect it to turn logical or anything, though you are nearing completion
14:34:32 <ehird> # No, I'm not bored
14:34:57 <Deewiant> cd ./../absolutely_not_cthulhu; ls
14:35:29 <ehird> Things a mere mortal is not meant to know. (By this I mean EFUCKYOUIMNOTGOINGTOGOAAAAAGAINIMJUSTADIRECTORYLISTINGPROGRAM)
14:35:42 <ehird> # Every file is sentient here!
14:35:52 <ehird> /./../absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:35:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:36:04 <ehird> # we're battling cthulhu
14:36:37 <ehird> ldd: ls is statically linked
14:36:52 <ais523> echo 'are the comment characters because someone'\''s piping #esoteric into a shell script?'
14:37:11 <ehird> ls cat dd ldd cthulhuise vi ...
14:37:18 <Deewiant> # Naw, I do think he's making it up as we go along
14:37:37 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:37:40 -!- Leonidas has joined.
14:38:02 <Deewiant> # Btw, I didn't ls after cd /bin but whatever
14:38:12 <ehird> ...! ...! Everybody ...!
14:38:41 <ehird> No such file: /dev
14:39:03 <Deewiant> dd if=./... of=cthulhuise bs=1
14:39:43 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ...
14:39:47 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root cthulhuise
14:39:54 <ehird> # Protip: You have vi
14:40:31 <Deewiant> echo $PATH # Where is all this clap trap coming from
14:41:01 <ehird> /bin:^lazy_ex_machina
14:41:10 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
14:41:24 <ehird> # (It's pretty much standard tools in thar)
14:41:38 <Deewiant> # Except when it isn't and they don't work
14:41:48 <ehird> ls cat dd ldd vi: Executable
14:41:57 <ehird> cthulhise ...: Script of some sort
14:42:07 <ehird> # Yes, in the year 3000 gnu mail is renamed GNU Male
14:42:10 <ehird> # What's your point
14:43:08 <ehird> cthulhise: Some thousands and such
14:43:10 <ehird> ...: Some thousands and such
14:44:23 <ehird> Files are identical
14:44:26 <ehird> Also I printed out "$" to trick you
14:44:33 <ehird> GNU diff "smartass edition"
14:45:05 <ehird> # Are you avoiding the obvious
14:45:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:45:22 <ehird> vi: Terminal unknown, starting ed
14:45:32 <ehird> Welcome to Microsoft Bob's "restricted ed!"
14:46:23 <ehird> (It pretty much hates you)
14:47:18 <ehird> (It only has like 5 commands)
14:47:56 <Deewiant> I'm reading the man page for what is presumably GNU ed, I'm trying to get any kind of output here
14:48:08 <ehird> Try something very, very simple
14:48:28 <Deewiant> Now I have to read about line addressing
14:48:29 <ehird> But not very, very simple
14:48:37 <ehird> Deewiant: No, one character will help
14:48:42 <ehird> It's non-alphabetical
14:49:24 <ehird> (EONLYONECHARACTERCOMMANDSSUPPORTED)
14:49:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> ...: Some thousands and such <-- over 9000?
14:50:00 <Deewiant> # See, this is why FUCK MS BOB ED
14:50:08 <ehird> # I hate you too, Deewiant!
14:50:53 <AnMaster> ..................................
14:51:06 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
14:51:17 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:51:45 <ehird> # EIDONTLIKESPAMMERS
14:51:50 <ehird> # Also ECANWEMOVEONPLEASE
14:52:27 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:52:33 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:53:18 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:53:46 <Deewiant> I know the thing practically by heart anyway and I don't see anything particularly helpful there
14:54:15 <ehird> # Remember that this OS favours the most ridiculous solution
14:54:29 <Deewiant> I also remember that it only supports one-character commands
14:54:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that isn't help. It is a joke about ed
14:54:46 <ehird> # All rules are malleable if it is funnier that way
14:54:56 <ehird> # clap clap, AnMaster
14:55:09 <ehird> Om nom nom nom nom AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:55:51 <ehird> ls vi cat dd ldd vi cthulhise ...
14:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ubuntuish way to mount nfs? I can do it by command line, but surely ubuntu has some nice GUI way?
14:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Connect to server in Nautilus or sth
14:56:15 <ehird> ...: Directory, not a file, doofus
14:56:23 <ehird> Also that $ was tricking you
14:56:26 <AnMaster> ehird, looked there, had FTP, SSH(fs), webdav, samba, but no nfs
14:56:47 <ehird> # Uhh, you copied ... to cthulhise
14:56:51 <ehird> # And edited it with ed
14:56:56 <ehird> # What, exactly, are you expecting
14:57:07 <ehird> # Right, er, let's try that again
14:57:33 <Deewiant> # Reading comprehension for the win
14:58:11 <ehird> # *disk krrrrrnks*
14:59:09 <Deewiant> # I expect at least the "If editing this file with ed" stuff
14:59:18 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:18 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:18 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.htm
14:59:19 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:20 <ehird> # I wonder who I'm talking to when I say: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:23 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "cthulhise" ]; then
14:59:31 <ehird> echo "$0! $0! Everybody $0!"
14:59:41 <ehird> # THE PLOT THICKENS
14:59:53 <Deewiant> # Should I know what disown is?
15:00:10 <ehird> # You may have done it as "nohup prog" instead
15:00:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is shell built in
15:00:31 <Deewiant> # (In zsh I usually do 'prog &!' instead
15:00:43 <ehird> # Anyway I didn't say evil was part of /bin did I? weird
15:00:58 <ehird> ^lazy_ex_machina/evil
15:01:54 <Deewiant> # I can't see it, I need a reminder
15:02:21 <ehird> # We have two vis?
15:02:50 <Deewiant> # (Dunno about this shell but ^ is often a metachar)
15:03:05 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:03:34 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root evil
15:04:49 <ehird> evil: Some thousands
15:05:16 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
15:05:44 <ehird> You cannot destroy evil
15:05:50 <ehird> You can only redefine evil to be yourself
15:05:53 <ehird> And make yourself good
15:06:03 <ehird> And if you sign up now for the Scientology starter pack, we'll AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:06:25 <ehird> I said you can only make yourself good
15:06:30 <ehird> Also, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:06:50 <ehird> MWAHAHAHAHHA GOOD? I AM NOT GOOD
15:07:02 <ehird> # wrong track, btw
15:07:07 <Deewiant> # Hmm, would GOOD=root been a better idea? :-P
15:07:39 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:08:02 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
15:08:06 <ehird> ON_THE_RIGHT_TRACK=no
15:08:53 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:09:28 <ehird> ESYMBOLICREPRESENTATIONNOTANACTUALFILEIAMNOTTHATDUMBALSOYOUREONTHEWRONGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:09:41 <ehird> # That's a new one
15:10:19 <ehird> /cthulhu_infection
15:10:52 <ehird> your_utter_failure
15:11:13 <ehird> Attempting to put you on the right track... Done
15:11:41 <ehird> /cthulhu_infection
15:11:59 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:12:30 <ehird> Starting evild... done
15:12:53 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:53 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:53 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.htm
15:12:53 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:55 <ehird> # I wonder who I'm talking to when I say: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:58 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "cthulhise" ]; then
15:13:06 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "evil" ]; then
15:13:08 <ehird> evild --start --pid=^stash/evild.pid $*
15:13:12 <ehird> echo "$0! $0! Everybody $0!"
15:13:42 <ehird> # You should win in a few commands
15:14:03 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaoh, what a relief.
15:14:47 <Deewiant> rm evil `which evild` `which cthulhise`
15:15:08 <Deewiant> # Not sure if that was a typo back then or not
15:15:19 <ehird> It was a hallucination :P
15:15:36 <ehird> evild: beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
15:15:54 <ehird> # Do I have to spell it out to you
15:16:01 <ais523> sudo start-stop-demon --stop --exe 'evild'
15:16:21 <ais523> # note: misspelling is not intentional, but ought to have been
15:16:30 <ehird> # Deewiant. Think about it.
15:16:52 <ehird> # What did you just manage to wipe out?
15:17:15 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAthank god, wait didn't this happen before?
15:18:22 <ehird> # Deewiant: You can win in a single-digit number of commands
15:18:24 <Deewiant> # There's no more evil or evild or cthulhise... if evild restarted itself before it can't do that now; now it simply refuses to die?
15:18:42 <ehird> # What happened when you copied cthulhise to evil?
15:19:04 <ehird> # But dd just copies files wholesale
15:19:30 <Deewiant> # Sure; I'm missing your point. Even if the original got changed it should be gone now as well
15:19:57 <ehird> # (You didn't check to see what was in there :-( )
15:20:04 <ehird> # For the record it was:
15:20:05 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "..." ]; then
15:20:06 <ehird> evild --constantly-replenish-just-by-being-in-the-file
15:20:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAtell me this is the final time, otherwise I hate you.
15:20:23 <ehird> # What was the last error you got
15:20:41 <ehird> # That's not an error.
15:21:44 <ehird> # The error was from
15:22:03 <Deewiant> # Presumably the shell or whatever; regardless, evild beeped so I'm assuming it was it who stopped me somehow
15:22:30 <ehird> /evild_replenisher
15:22:40 <Deewiant> file /cthulhu_infection/evild_replenisher
15:22:52 <ehird> evild_replenisher: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:22:58 <ehird> # Hint: The OS is multitasking
15:23:26 <Deewiant> rm /cthulhu_infection/evild_replenisher
15:23:35 <Deewiant> # With any luck only the dir is protected
15:23:45 <ehird> # I give hints because you need to use them, dude
15:24:54 <Deewiant> kill -9 `pidof evild_replenisher` # This can't possibly help
15:25:24 <ehird> # Yo, dude, remember how you killed evild and wiped out ...?
15:25:41 <ehird> # But evild restarts before you get a prompt, and the file can't be deleted while it's running
15:25:48 <ehird> # Tip: The processor is infinitely fast
15:26:03 <ehird> # But is single-core
15:26:06 <Deewiant> # I thought it never died, just beeped when I tried to kill it
15:26:10 <ehird> # You fig out the rest
15:26:17 <Deewiant> # Or was that another hallucination?!
15:26:17 <ehird> Deewiant: You're right
15:26:23 <ehird> # It's infinitely fast and dual-core
15:26:42 <Deewiant> # I already had the while loop to kill it typed out and all when I realized that :-P
15:26:44 <ehird> # And also multitasking, therefore
15:27:08 <ehird> # You must... obvious
15:27:51 <Deewiant> while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & while ! rm -rfv /cthulhu_infection; do done &
15:27:59 <Deewiant> # Guess they can't hurt if it's infinitely fast
15:28:21 <ehird> EOVERCOMPLICATINGTHINGSTHEREARENOTIMINGISSUESINTHISOS
15:29:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Fix that then one more command to win
15:29:29 <AnMaster> EOVERCOMPLICATINGTHINGSTHEREARENOIMINGISSUESINTHISOST <-- I don't manage to parse the bit after the NOT (IMINGISSUESINTHISOS)
15:30:01 <ehird> there are not I'm in gissues in this OS
15:30:12 <ehird> EYOUHADITALMOSTRIGHTBEFORE
15:30:16 <ehird> EBUTWHATDOTHELOOPSHELP?
15:30:43 <Deewiant> # Since evild is unkillable and I can't touch anything of it without its permission I'm failing to see what's doable
15:31:11 <Deewiant> while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & # ???
15:31:17 <Deewiant> # It can only stop one attempt a time?
15:31:27 <ehird> EITOLDYOUTHATWHILESDONTHELP
15:31:31 <Deewiant> # In which case the forkbomb should have worked as well
15:31:40 <ehird> # Technically yours should work
15:31:43 <ehird> # But it's missing the point :P
15:31:55 <Deewiant> kill -9 666 & kill -9 666 # ???
15:32:06 <ehird> Yours wouldn't work
15:32:06 <ehird> evild: Beep. evild: Beep.
15:32:24 <AnMaster> load a kernel module which does the thing
15:32:25 <ehird> # Deewiant: Jesus christ man, a file keeps a d and the d keeps the file, and you have a dual-core processor with no timing issues
15:32:35 <ehird> # it's blindingly obvious
15:32:51 <Deewiant> # If the two things protect each other 100% and there's no way to do anything in between... it's impossible?!
15:32:58 <ais523> mount --bind /dev/null /cthulu_infection -o loopback
15:33:07 <ais523> I've probably messed up the syntax there
15:33:08 <Deewiant> ais523: There was no /dev/null last I checked
15:33:15 <ais523> ehird: what do you think of my solution, anyway?
15:33:23 <ehird> ais523: evild is too smart for your mortal musings
15:33:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just kill from the other cpu
15:33:41 <ehird> AnMaster gets it right for once!
15:33:45 <ais523> instead of deleting the directory, rebind over it so it's inaccessible
15:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a simple asm program making two syscalls
15:33:53 * ais523 is determined to find an unintended solution to this
15:34:06 <ais523> ehird: it would be possible in asm, though
15:34:10 <ais523> just as it can be done in C
15:34:10 <ehird> # No it's not, this OS is very clever with &
15:34:22 <AnMaster> meanwhile you need to hog the other CPU to prevent evild running at the same time
15:34:23 <Deewiant> Kill from the other CPU? But I thought the thing can block anything
15:34:30 <AnMaster> so you need to set CPU affinity as well
15:34:35 <ehird> # Deewiant: (kill;rm) and (rm;kill) both fail.
15:34:42 <ehird> # Deewiant: But we have two perfectly-synchronised CPUs.
15:34:54 <ais523> Deewiant: ehird's suggesting you do kill & rm
15:34:56 <ehird> # They failed because the file was there
15:34:56 <ais523> which is a boring solution
15:35:02 <ehird> # ais523: No shit, it's also obvious
15:35:09 <ehird> # He's done all the hard stuff
15:35:22 <Deewiant> kill from one and rm from the other?
15:35:45 <Deewiant> So that it can then block one but not the other? What happened to "infinitely fast"?
15:36:00 <ais523> which CPU is evild running on, by the way?
15:36:18 <ehird> # Deewiant: They're perfectly synchronised
15:36:30 <ehird> # Deewiant: Also, infinitely fast, yes
15:36:32 <Deewiant> Oh, that's what you meant by "no timing issues"?
15:36:34 <ehird> # But still ordered
15:36:49 <ehird> # Which is why the double-kill wouldn't work
15:36:53 <Deewiant> Maybe I should have asked for clarification as to what you meant by "timing issues"
15:37:02 <ais523> ehird: if they're infinitely fast, I'd be solving the Riemann Hypothesis, rather than bothering with evild
15:37:13 <ehird> # ais523: It would tell you ENICETRY
15:37:47 <ais523> incidentally, yay I wrote a Dudley's Dungeon comic that people actually like: http://alt.org/nethack/dudley/?f=2009.8.30
15:37:57 <Deewiant> # Forgetting about the fact that by the time the fork is done the first command is finished...
15:37:58 <Deewiant> kill -9 666 & rm -rf /cthulhu_infection
15:38:06 <AnMaster> ais523, that thing is STILL going?
15:38:13 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, people enjoy it
15:38:15 <ais523> and yes, different website
15:38:18 <ais523> which is why you hadn't noticed
15:38:27 <ais523> the one on sadowl is also still going, but more slowly
15:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I stopped reading it long long ago
15:38:36 <ais523> but the original original one isn't
15:38:43 <ehird> evild: BeeAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaawhat's happening? did you do it afucking gain? Oh gop! ...p! :(is it over now? evild: beeeeeeeeeex I, yawn, need some rest after that. Maybe a reboot would help.
15:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yeah the original is all I knew about
15:39:12 <ehird> Killing all processes...
15:39:23 <ehird> Starting services...
15:39:23 <ais523> # ln -s /sbin/reboot /sbin/restart ; /sbin/restart
15:39:30 <ehird> Booting face party program...
15:39:36 <ehird> ˝| : I feel like hours just passed
15:40:40 <ehird> Deewiant: you just lost hours of your time
15:40:59 <Deewiant> No, CCBI's been running at 100% CPU usage all this time
15:41:01 <ehird> ais523: sadowl, btw, not shadowl
15:41:13 <ais523> ehird: I said sadowl, it's AnMaster who typoed it
15:41:22 <ehird> Deewiant: What's it doing
15:41:27 <ais523> AnMaster: http://sadowl.com/dudley/
15:41:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Beating cfunge? :P
15:41:50 <Deewiant> No, it's CCBI1, which is why it's been all this time
15:42:00 <Deewiant> It's occasionally even slower than Language::Befunge, I've noticed
15:42:10 <Deewiant> I don't know what's going on in that hashtable implementation
15:42:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thats...... impressive
15:42:15 <ehird> Deewiant: What program, slowdown?
15:42:43 <Deewiant> The current one, which took 8966 seconds, is a 6000*6000 square of > and v and ^ ending in f.@
15:42:56 <Deewiant> IIRC cfunge takes about 30 seconds on it
15:43:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, but I can pastebin the script that generates it
15:43:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok would work if it is deterministic
15:43:48 <ehird> Wow, it was only about one and a half hours that took
15:43:52 <ehird> well ok, more like 1+45 minutes
15:44:00 <ehird> still, felt like much longer
15:44:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://funge.pastebin.com/f5c673a86
15:44:18 <Deewiant> ehird: The issue is how it does mem allocation
15:44:29 <Deewiant> It goes up to over 2 gigs quite quickly
15:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think increasing the size of the static area would be the way to go
15:44:47 <Deewiant> Then it starts allocating at a rate of about 16M every minute or so
15:44:53 <ehird> Have a 6000x6000 static area
15:45:10 <AnMaster> for obvious reasons this would be bad
15:45:17 <Deewiant> I /will/ increase the sizes to get out of your damn static areas, no matter how big you make them :-P
15:45:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dynamic static areas?
15:45:47 <ehird> Battling to write a program cfunge is slow on is basically battling against a very slow form of hardcoding the output
15:45:59 <AnMaster> detecting a lot of static area misses... using mmap() and grow static area
15:46:13 <Deewiant> There are 1*100000000 benchmarks as well
15:46:15 <ehird> AnMaster: thinking oxymorons are a nice idea since forever
15:46:25 <Deewiant> And I doubt he'll make it that big by default ;-)
15:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well static area would be the wrong term yes
15:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you know what dynamic static areas are called?
15:46:43 <Deewiant> 100000000^2 is a lot of integers
15:47:08 <ehird> That wasn't even funny, meaningful or anything
15:47:11 <ehird> I will summarily ignore it
15:47:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't supposed to be funny...
15:47:37 <AnMaster> it was supposed to be meaningful though
15:48:00 <ehird> You only ever say "clearly" when you're attempting to be funny, AnMaster.
15:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, if so I wasn't aware of it
15:48:27 <AnMaster> but no I wasn't meaning to be funny
15:48:35 <ehird> Maybe it's your subconscious valiantly trying to save you from your awfulness.
15:48:40 <ehird> By blotting out awareness.
15:48:53 <AnMaster> I was thinking about pyalloc's areans
15:49:03 <AnMaster> anyway... it isn't like I would have time to implement this any time soon
15:49:51 <ehird> That was the worst reference ever
15:50:00 <ehird> You should feel bad.
15:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't supposed to be _funny_ at all
15:50:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking it would be an appropriate name for 2D areas here.
15:51:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still... my hash library is far from slow so meh
15:53:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what language was that paste in...
15:53:38 <ehird> And here I was trying to save Deewiant from the endless barrage of questions about the program
15:54:25 <ais523> what's the subject of discussion?
15:54:41 <ehird> cfunge being microoptimised for one program yet again
15:54:42 <Deewiant> http://funge.pastebin.com/f5c673a86 and cfunge?
15:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it prints a single char?
15:55:09 <Deewiant> $ARGV[0] not enough of a hint?
15:55:23 <Deewiant> It should print 4 chars without any arguments, though
15:55:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok I should have given it a longer name than t.pl?
15:55:32 <AnMaster> argv0 is program name after all
15:55:47 <Deewiant> In perl it's like you C folks' argv[1]
15:55:52 <ais523> ehird: the number of Befunge programs is sufficiently small that you could probably micro-optimise for each of them individually
15:56:00 <ehird> AnMaster is a master of turning his brain off intentionally whenever he is faced with a language he hasn't given purposeful effort to lear
15:56:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is program name then?
15:56:35 <Deewiant> Ask ais523 or fizzie, they know Perl
15:56:47 <Deewiant> Or get an answer from ehird, that works too
15:56:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so who wrote that program?
15:56:59 <ais523> AnMaster: C's argv[0] is Perl's $0, C's argv[1] is Perl's $ARGV[0]
15:57:09 <ehird> ais523: No it's not, C predates Perl
15:57:12 <Deewiant> It was originally in shell script
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15:57:14 <ehird> You mean the other way around
15:57:22 <ais523> ehird: I'm using "is" in the sense of "means the same thing"
15:57:26 <ais523> not in the sense of "was based on"
15:57:27 <Deewiant> But it turns out that doing 3000000 echoes is slow as shit
15:57:31 <ais523> my relation is commutative
15:57:32 <ehird> I'm trying to be as stupid as AnMaster to see what it's like
15:57:44 <ehird> Sorry if it inconveniences anyone else :P
15:57:52 <AnMaster> but what language was perl originally coded in then?
15:58:09 <ehird> Sussman wrote the first Perl implementation, in Perl.
15:58:17 <ehird> Then another was written in Ada to execute the first one.
15:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, self interpreters are nice, but you need something to bootstrap it
15:58:37 <ais523> ehird: blatant lying is probably not a good idea
15:58:44 <ais523> I think the first impl was Larry Wall's C impl perl1
15:58:50 <ehird> ais523: It is when faced with someone who is both stupid and unable to use google
15:58:59 <AnMaster> so perl doesn't predate C then :P
15:59:06 <ehird> I... never said that.
15:59:16 <ehird> [15:57] ehird: ais523: No it's not, C predates Perl
16:00:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, use a better hash table btw
16:00:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it can't be too hard to implement one yourself
16:01:00 <Deewiant> I'd rather not update CCBI1 more
16:01:01 <ehird> <Deewiant> Yes sir
16:01:14 <Deewiant> There's one in Tango which would probably be better
16:01:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what one do you use now then?
16:02:02 <Deewiant> Which I guess also comes from Tango though
16:02:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu").
16:02:31 <ais523> I never have visited TV Tropes
16:02:35 <Deewiant> The trick with TV Tropes is to read it all
16:02:41 <Deewiant> Then you won't get stuck again
16:02:53 <ehird> I tried that, didn't work
16:02:56 <ehird> I forgot half the pages
16:03:03 <Deewiant> Okay, s/read/read and remember/
16:03:08 <Deewiant> I remember that one, for instance :-P
16:03:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the trick is to set a CSS to hide the links
16:03:49 <ais523> Deewiant: if you use Chatzilla, you could
16:04:04 <Deewiant> Yes, and probably in several others too
16:04:05 <ehird> On the other hand you'd have to use chatzilla
16:04:17 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:04:20 -!- ehird has joined.
16:04:24 <ehird> I did that just to see if it would work
16:04:27 <ehird> why did I do that?
16:06:44 <Deewiant> Meh, I should just benchmark the fast interpreters and forget about these slow ones
16:07:05 <ehird> Spoiler: cfunge wins
16:07:44 <Deewiant> That's not the only kind of result one can get :-P
16:08:02 <ehird> Deewiant: True... until the next cfunge release.
16:08:23 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:08:24 <Deewiant> I didn't mean that somebody else would win
16:08:37 <Deewiant> I meant that the type of data is not only "X wins"
16:08:47 <ehird> true, you could make a pie chart
16:08:56 <ehird> you wouldn't have enough pixels for the non-cfunge segments
16:08:58 <Deewiant> I've been plotting memory usage vs. time
16:09:56 <Deewiant> With the memory usage and time data gathered on different runs, but anyway; it's scientific!
16:12:21 <ais523> why can't you measure on the same run?
16:13:16 <Deewiant> I'd rather the time measurements are separate, since the mem measurer uses up CPU by itself
16:13:48 <ehird> Do you know who else uses CPU by herself
16:14:09 <Deewiant> I could of course save time measurements for the memory run as well to get more accurate plots, I just haven't
16:23:46 <ehird> DASHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIk
16:26:19 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> That's not the only kind of result one can get :-P
16:26:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: True... until the next cfunge release.
16:26:34 <AnMaster> well, it wouldn't manage well on that grid thingy
16:26:40 <ehird> Will never be completed
16:26:42 <AnMaster> since it only runs any code once it seems
16:27:48 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I've been plotting memory usage vs. time <-- cfunge would use a large amount of RAM compared to time
16:28:05 <AnMaster> it easily hits 10 MB or so for the "baseline" iirc
16:28:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not at all, compared to L::B and CCBI1 :-P
16:28:36 <ehird> Further proving cfunge's perfect superiority!
16:28:58 <Deewiant> In the end all three use a fairly similar amount of memory, of course, since they all use hashtables of ints
16:29:29 <ehird> Doesn't a 32-bit funge only need 4GB- wait, no, that's 16-bit
16:29:34 <ehird> 32-bit would need (large)GB
16:29:56 <ehird> an N-bit funge needs an (N*2)-bit address space
16:30:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Storing the whole of fungespace
16:30:32 <ehird> Anyway, that means a conformant funge MUST be (cpubits/2)-bit or less
16:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it 2^32 * 2^32 even
16:33:23 <ehird> http://xkcdsuckssuxsuckssux.blogspot.com/
16:33:35 <ehird> (Yes, all the previous chains exist)
16:33:41 <ehird> Also http://xkcdsuckscommentboxsucks.blogspot.com/
16:33:56 <ehird> And http://xkcdisaparagonofhilarity.blogspot.com/ and http://xkcdisaparagonofhilaritysucks.blogspot.com/
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16:40:11 <ehird> http://imgur.com/j9wrB.jpg
16:40:28 <ehird> Insert esolang-related joke
16:40:30 <ehird> I know there is one
16:40:34 <ehird> I just can't think of a a decent one right now
16:47:16 <ehird> In an infographic from the internet no less
16:48:56 <Deewiant> How dare they put a typo in my Internet
16:50:01 <ehird> http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/documentation/
16:50:12 <ehird> Scheme + live coding + 3d + based on audio + stuff = too cool
16:51:21 <Asztal> In effect, we conjure the spirits of the synthesizer with our spells?
16:51:36 <ehird> In this case, the synthesizer conjures the spirits of the 3d cubes with its spells
16:54:30 <ehird> Now it's turned into a waggling cube penis.
16:54:41 <ehird> Okay now THAT'S cool
16:55:53 <ehird> Haha, the blur blurs the editor too
16:56:51 <ehird> This would make a good video for the track
17:17:14 <Deewiant> http://www.neatorama.com/2007/01/18/cthulhu-buns/
17:17:49 <ehird> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
17:21:44 <ehird> "Chinese workers have covered a giant steel bridge with butter because officials are fed up with traffic jams caused by people who slow down to watch suicide victims leaping to their death."
17:21:49 <ehird> I love the justification ther
17:21:58 <ehird> They don't care about the actual suicides, hell no!
17:22:36 <ehird> "and we put up special fences and notices asking people not to commit suicide here"
17:22:48 <ehird> "Out of consideration for others, please kill yourself in your own home!"
17:22:51 <ais523> ehird: why would covering it with butter help?
17:23:00 <ehird> [[Bridge guard Wong Man said: "The butter makes the bars and frames slippery and hard to climb onto, and we can easily catch them."]]
17:23:21 <ehird> "Move along now, there's another bridge to jump off, I'm sure"
17:25:18 <oklofok> ehird: Deewiant: SICP even has graphics stuff? <<< it has the picture language
17:25:26 <ehird> like turtle stuff?
17:25:28 <ehird> vague memory of tha
17:25:42 <oklofok> it's a language where you can compose pictures.
17:25:50 <ehird> that's turtle to me
17:25:54 <ehird> if it's simplistic
17:25:59 <oklofok> "language", basically you have picture objects and combinators for them
17:26:16 <Deewiant> Turtle stuff is LOGO, which is a bit more simplistic
17:26:27 <oklofok> turtle stuff is imperative
17:26:35 <ehird> gah scheme is beautiful
17:26:48 <oklofok> you should read sicp, ehird
17:26:48 <ehird> wish plt was less crappy on os x tho
17:27:02 <ehird> oklofok: it's so much more fun trolling people about it having not read it
17:27:41 <oklofok> you *have* read it though, right?
17:28:06 <Deewiant> If he says "having not read it", presumably he then hasn't read it
17:28:18 <oklofok> but... i really thought he had read it
17:28:34 <oklofok> that's probably part of the reason i took the time to read it
17:28:36 <Deewiant> I thought we'd established that you tend to be detached from reality
17:28:39 <ehird> see, it's great to do long-term trolling things
17:28:44 <ehird> because you shatter people's minor illusions
17:28:49 <ehird> oklofok: is it any good :P
17:29:32 <ehird> i rarely read longform programming stuff
17:29:39 <ehird> i'm much more of a hypertexty, contexty person
17:29:45 <oklofok> too little math, but the code is sexy
17:29:59 <ehird> well obviously, it's by the Sussman
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17:31:56 <ehird> oklofog: I can't see through you
17:33:20 <fizzie> I guess oklofog's just condensed oklowater.
17:33:57 <ehird> t is totally a verb
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17:37:16 <oklovar> i can't believe you haven't read sicp
17:37:34 <oklovar> have you read rwh? not sure you even started, but i assumed that too :P
17:37:35 <ehird> oklovar: are you just sitting there gawping
17:37:38 <oklovar> HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING, EVER?
17:37:42 <ehird> i started to read rwh then stopped
17:37:51 <ehird> i started to read anything then stopped HUR HUR
17:38:01 <fizzie> Oklowaßer. Except I guess they wouldn't spell it with ß at least nowadays.
17:38:05 <ehird> actually I can't read.
17:38:08 <ehird> I use a screenreader
17:38:27 <oklovar> would be pretty cool if you just never learned to read
17:38:40 <ehird> oklovar: that is what is known as being a retard :P
17:39:07 <oklovar> or a dude who sticks to his priorities
17:39:34 <ehird> i think it'd be very hard to not learn to read
17:40:12 <oklovar> I CAN'T BELIVE YOUR NOT HAVING READ IT BELIEVE
17:40:25 <fizzie> I can't believe ehird's not butter!
17:40:27 <ehird> oklovar: you ARE just sitting there in amazement are you
17:41:05 <oklovar> i am. too tired to read, but i don't want to sleep
17:41:15 <ehird> you can't read now
17:41:47 <oklovar> err because you don't or what?
17:43:13 <oklovar> maybe i'll just read a *little* bit
17:50:04 <oklovar> i could've been a fine computational geometrician in the 1970's, for instance, i invented quadtrees and kd-trees in the same order as they appeared irl, and with about the same interval
17:50:26 <Deewiant> Quadtrees don't take much creativity
17:50:27 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:50:29 <ais523> someone should invent hexadecitrees for storing 4D data
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17:50:49 <ais523> <ais523> someone should invent hexadecitrees for storing 4D data <--- all you missed
17:50:49 <ehird> I have two windows focused at once
17:50:52 <ehird> how the fuck does that work
17:51:02 <ehird> Glitchily, is the answer :P
17:51:11 <ais523> I've seen it happen on computer games with homebrew OSes, but not on real OSes before
17:51:21 <oklovar> Deewiant: i "invented" them as a quick hack to make collision queries faster
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17:51:30 <ais523> half the glitches in the original Pokémon were that sort of thing
17:51:35 <oklovar> kd-trees were what i did after learning what data structures were
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17:53:05 <oklovar> ais523: i'm fairly sure the original papers about quadtrees have "can obviously be extended to any amount of dimensions"
17:53:17 <ais523> but have they been named?
17:53:35 <ais523> there are quadtrees and oct-trees, after all
18:06:35 <fizzie> "Results 1 - 3 of 3 for hexadectree."
18:07:07 <fizzie> "-- produce the same result as one hexadectree refinement step, where a hexadectree is the generalization of an octree to four dimension --"
18:07:11 <fizzie> At least someone's named it.
18:07:40 <fizzie> Not very common, but still more common than a hexadec*i*tree; "Results 1 - 2 of about 0 for hexadecitree."
18:08:19 <ehird> "1 - 2 of about 0" :D
18:09:30 <fizzie> Okay, so 2 out of the 3 are from the same paper, "Hierarchical Representation of Time-varying Volume Data with ∜2 Subdivision and Quadrilinear B-spline Wavelets".
18:11:09 <ehird> is that a single character?
18:11:26 <ehird> as in, not a combining+regular
18:14:12 <ehird> Oh, I thought that was sqrt a
18:16:51 <fizzie> Yes. Maybe I should've added a combining overline to the 2, like ∜2̅.
18:18:17 <fizzie> I can't seem to find combining numbers, even though I think I've seen those. Must've been dreaming. There's quite a lot of combining latin letters, though.
18:19:49 <ehird> The font's too small
18:19:51 <ehird> it looked like a weird a
18:21:56 <oklovar> still kinda weird to believe
18:22:17 <fizzie> The upper/lower-half symbols are funny. Like the sum:
18:24:43 <fizzie> Or the integral, which has a separate extension-bar and all.
18:25:39 <Deewiant> And the differential sign (I guess?) next to the x is just a box
18:26:07 <fizzie> That's U+2146 double-struck italic small d, "sometimes used for the differential". I wanted something a bit out of the ordinary there.
18:28:34 <Deewiant> No, I mean it was riddled with holes
18:28:55 <AnMaster> ah well yes it doesn't fit together here. Neither does
18:41:32 -!- ehird has quit.
18:54:01 <AnMaster> From the spam folder: You can▓t even complain about our watches √ they are perfect.
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19:03:39 <fizzie> ℱ⁻¹, the inverse Fourier transform.
19:03:49 <fizzie> For the record, I had holes in both the sum and the integral.
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19:26:03 <ehird> Neither fit together due to (a) fonts, (b) line height
19:26:44 <ais523> ehird: they fit together on a DOS console
19:26:51 <ais523> I know this from experience
19:27:17 <ais523> no, those characters are, amazingly, in the default 256-char character set
19:27:28 <ehird> well that's to be expected
19:27:31 <ehird> spreadsheets and the like
19:27:50 <ais523> presumably that's why they're in unicode in the first place
19:28:06 <ehird> no, unicode just wants to have everything
19:28:13 <ehird> which includes being able to do plaintext mathematics
19:28:31 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cp437 has the possibly most famous DOS charset. I don't think it has a sum.
19:28:33 <ehird> although only two lines for sum seems od
19:28:44 <fizzie> There's the top and bottom for integral, and a single-character sigma.
19:28:45 <Deewiant> It has a one-line sum in the form of capital sigma
19:28:47 <coppro> even, with any luck, Tengwar and Cirth
19:28:48 <ehird> either line you put the expression, it's unbalanced
19:29:06 <ais523> fizzie: ah, no, but it has the integral as 244,245
19:29:41 <fizzie> Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cp850 is what we mostly saw, since cp437 lacks the åäö chars.
19:29:46 <coppro> you can always do a single sigma with sub/superscript indices
19:29:49 <ehird> 11:08:56 <Deewiant> http://imgur.com/a2RFE.jpg
19:29:49 <ehird> one of my first thoughts was "that laptop is unreasonably thick" :P
19:32:25 <fizzie> The Unicode ☺ (at least in this font) doesn't much look like the mostly-rectangular face I'm used to; the one that's in the picture on the cp437 wiki-page.
19:32:51 <ehird> The cp437 is :D anyway
19:33:41 <fizzie> And the double exclamation point, ‼.
19:33:55 <ehird> Which looks identical to !! in this font
19:33:58 <ehird> As in, pixel-for-pixel
19:34:19 <ais523> ehird: they look very different in this font
19:34:28 <ais523> different spacing, different height
19:34:29 <fizzie> But takes one byte less! Well, except that it's three bytes in UTF-8.
19:34:33 <Deewiant> Is it your font or your kerner
19:35:05 <ais523> the kerner here is pretty aggressive, though
19:35:28 <Deewiant> That was more at ehird, since it seems odd that the characters themselves would be identical
19:35:58 <ehird> I'm pretty sure it's identical in Lucida Grande, although really, OS X's kerner is so perfect that I couldn't point out if it was
19:36:08 <ehird> *they're; not it's
19:36:15 <ehird> They are literally pixel-identical.
19:36:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're right. Why, then, did we bother with cp850?
19:37:09 <Deewiant> Did we? I don't think I did :-P
19:38:13 <fizzie> "keyb su,850,c:\dos\keyboard.sys" is I think what some autoexec.bat said.
19:38:40 <Deewiant> I always just used "keyb su,,"
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19:43:42 <ehird> you crazy people who actually used DOS
19:44:47 <ehird> did I say there's anything wrong with DOS?
19:45:39 <impomatic> No, you just called us crazy for using it. What's wrong with us?
19:45:48 <ais523> I rarely use it nowadays
19:45:53 <ehird> impomatic: Firstly,
19:45:54 <ais523> but I prefer it to Windows
19:45:58 <ehird> "used", past tense
19:46:03 <ehird> Secondly, there was context
19:46:10 <ehird> Thirdly, for the record, DOS is awful
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19:47:59 <ehird> Well that upset him
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19:51:58 <impomatic> Thanks, gf made me restart net :-(
19:52:46 <ehird> http://www.rntz.net/files/arc3.1.patch
19:52:47 <ehird> ITT: Paul Graham and friends fix the fact that Arc doesn't work on MzScheme 4, because conses are immutable, by writing low-level pointer/memory hackery to directly modify them. Among every other obvious objection to this ridiculous, ridiculous change is that there's no damn guarantee that the *immutable* pairs will even be *mutable* in memory in the future.
19:53:56 <Deewiant> Is that allowed in R6RS or something?
19:54:14 <ehird> Deewiant: It's a PLT-specific change.
19:54:16 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, anyway.
19:54:27 <Deewiant> Presumably there's a "mutable-cons"?
19:54:27 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to assume you don't know who Paul Graham is either
19:54:45 <ehird> ais523: I really don't have the hours to explain to you, so let me summarise it:
19:54:48 <ais523> I can certainly tell from your description that that patch is a very bad idea, though
19:55:03 <Deewiant> Presumably it's a pain in the butt to use cons everywhere except MzScheme
19:55:06 <fizzie> R6RS has http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-18.html#node_chap_17
19:55:13 <ehird> Deewiant: So set the language to r5rs or whatever in mzscheme
19:55:18 <ehird> Scheme isn't really portable
20:00:09 <ehird> ais523: Paul Graham is a guy who got rich from a terrible web application in the 90s that was bought out by Yahoo, ViaWeb (now Yahoo Stores, although it doesn't use his code anymore). Basically, he got lucky. It happened to be written in Lisp, so he then promptly became a blowhard, writing a bunch of stupid essays about how using Lisp will make you rich, hackers are basically like painters because I'm both and we're both hyper-intelligent and so on and so fo
20:00:09 <ehird> These were, of course, massively popular. He then started Y Combinator, a venture capital that funded reddit and others. He took five years to construct his language, Arc, based on the oh-so-stupid principle of "if we give everything short names and make them only work to do exactly what I want them to do and have no flexibility whatsoever, my language will be expressive and short". He had the hubris to call Arc a "hundred-year language", despite it not supp
20:00:11 <ehird> Unicode and coming with the ability to produce basically nothing that isn't a trivial web app using tables for layout and dumps of Arc data in flatfiles for a database. After these laborious five years, accompanied of course by epic dosages of hype along the way, he released a few-thousand line compiler written in Scheme that compiled Arc to Scheme, even going so far as to use MzScheme's parser - a work trivial beyond comprehension. He defended this by sayin
20:00:17 <ehird> writing the code was easy, it was just figuring out what to write that took so long. The obvious rebuttal is that it's a stupid, tiny language that consists of a meagre standard library with short names and a small continuation-based combined web server/framework that encourages using tables for layout, and a retarded monkey could come up with that in a few minutes.
20:01:10 <ais523> on average, is it more or less expressive than INTERCAL?
20:01:28 <ehird> Uhh, more. Also, it seems my client cut off some characters from the ends of its automatically-split lines.
20:01:31 <ehird> But you can figure it out trivially.
20:02:09 <fizzie> Your messages, they were mostly cut in twain. "and so f", "it not sup", "this by sayi".
20:02:20 <ehird> I didn't know Mark Twain did that.
20:02:49 <fizzie> You must've somehow post-dated that comment about it, I didn't see it at all.
20:03:03 <ehird> I posted it on a date, yes.
20:05:26 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
20:09:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:10:37 <ehird> impomatic: You are the master of the bounce
20:13:07 <AnMaster> * impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1") <-- hnu
20:14:04 <ehird> Hnuh is not a pronounceable word.
20:14:30 <Deewiant> He quit using his usual quit message?
20:15:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well maybe, but what does that asm bit do?
20:16:33 <impomatic> I had to restart the net again. My gf can't connect and isn't happy about it!
20:17:44 <AnMaster> impomatic, what does it do though?
20:18:55 <impomatic> When it executes, it copies itself over the next location in memory.
20:19:12 <ais523> and that's the next location that executes
20:19:17 <ais523> it's basically a minimal SMITH-style loop
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20:26:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you know those google "frontends"? like lmgify and such
20:26:18 <AnMaster> I was googling and found a very silly one
20:26:47 <ehird> That's not a google frontend.
20:26:57 <ehird> That's a topic-specific search engine that looks like google.
20:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well I didn't try it. it looks like one though
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20:44:09 <Deewiant> http://cchronicles.com/files/114018167ba946835827b8e6ad733f09-20.html promises amusement
20:44:17 <Deewiant> A look at a variety of interesting programming languages being used for personal computers. Included are demonstrations of Microsoft's Office 2000 Developer, LEGO Mindstorms RCX Code Developer, Macromedia Flash 3.0, and Metrowerks CodeWarrior."
20:47:44 <ehird> Oh man, the top one is RISC
20:47:51 <ehird> RISC will solve everything!
20:47:59 <ehird> RISC will make your grandma come back to life!
20:48:04 <ehird> RISC will speed up your computer 5000%
20:48:19 <Deewiant> I read that as "RISC will speed up your grandma 5000%"
20:48:41 <ehird> http://cchronicles.com/files/3b442913b12648d4179b6f5736263c5f-64.html
20:48:41 <ehird> The first one here is... so small
20:48:47 <ehird> The keys are smaller than a finger
20:49:37 <ehird> I'm always surprised when the 80s are, well, stereotypically 80s
20:50:28 <ehird> yeah yeah more like the newton shut up
20:53:13 <Deewiant> "What we have with the CodeWarrior software is we have a website that comes with the software"
20:54:11 <Deewiant> Oh noes, the CodeWarrior guy is double-clicking on links in IE 5
20:54:34 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:54:48 <ehird> mentions the dynabook
20:55:24 <ehird> Hmph, it has videos as late as 1996
20:55:38 <ehird> I think at a certain point in the 90s computers stopped being awesomely retro and just became boring
20:55:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Well yeah, which is even worse
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21:00:51 <Deewiant> http://www.archive.org/details/computerchronicles has the same content with a different design
21:01:47 <Deewiant> "The programming challenges in the Internet era are about things like adding cool graphics, animations, sounds and activity to your web site"
21:03:01 <Deewiant> And they have Flash pages with background music, of course
21:03:10 <ehird> Deewiant: The blog just embeds from archive.or
21:03:24 <ehird> But the UI is nicer
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21:13:08 <oklopol> cool graphics and activity are serious business
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21:14:25 <oerjan> <ehird> AAAAAA <- BWAHAHAHAHA
21:14:45 <oerjan> <ehird> I just clicked it
21:19:52 <oerjan> <ehird> [[Bridge guard Wong Man said: "The butter makes the bars and frames slippery and hard to climb onto, and we can easily catch them."]]
21:20:02 <ehird> Ooh, another Paul Graham gem:
21:20:07 <ehird> [[The News server currently crashes a couple times a day when it runs
21:20:08 <ehird> out of memory. All the comments and stories no longer fit in the 2 GB
21:20:08 <ehird> we can get on a 32 bit machine.]]
21:20:10 <ehird> "Because what is a disk"
21:20:19 <oerjan> ok that _is_ a bit better than the stereotype my prejudices assumed ;D
21:20:45 <oerjan> (i.e. that they would do it so the suiciders would slip off the bridge faster)
21:24:14 <oerjan> butter daisy, presumably
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21:26:59 <ehird> http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~jostein/qupload/files/slackware.jpg ;; This isn't fair, the screenshot is from Windows 3.1. Slackware might even be as advanced as NT 3.51!
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21:39:28 <svarg> anyone familiar with pre-c
21:44:36 <oerjan> <ehird> Hnuh is not a pronounceable word.
21:44:58 <oerjan> yeah that h at the end is awkward
21:45:22 <oerjan> (so say all good norsemen)
21:45:43 <oerjan> (while playing hnefatafl)
21:46:23 <ehird> svarg: first, what's pre-c, secondly, what does "was it from cobol" mean?
21:46:28 <oerjan> svarg: c came from b, which came from bcpl
21:46:43 <oerjan> which came from cpl iirc
21:46:56 <ehird> pre-c is presumably a language
21:46:59 <oerjan> although there is more than one language called cpl, also iirc
21:47:11 <ehird> svarg: do you mean what languages came before C?
21:47:18 <ehird> direct predecessors, or just every language before C?
21:47:57 <ehird> Algol came from Lisp and Fortran
21:48:15 <ehird> (I think, at least)
21:48:21 <Deewiant> Not much from Lisp, I don't think
21:48:32 <Deewiant> It may have been somewhat influenced by Fortran
21:48:34 <ehird> Algol has some weird shit
21:48:48 <ehird> well, fortran was the "general language"t ehn
21:48:56 <Deewiant> Fortran was 1957, Algol and Lisp were both 1958
21:49:10 <ehird> McCarthy did Algol too
21:49:22 <ehird> Note that Algol 58 sucked
21:49:26 <ehird> Nothing like 60, really
21:49:46 <ehird> Anyway, Lisp came out of LSD and Fortran and Fortran came out of, like, autocode
21:49:57 <ehird> And Autocode came out of someone's ass
21:50:27 <oerjan> ehird: LSD + lambda calculus, surely?
21:50:45 <ehird> Lisp has not that much to do with the lambda calculus, really
21:50:46 <Deewiant> Do you say "night" to the other 500 channels you've been idling on as well?
21:50:58 <ehird> Deewiant: He probably has a (configurable) script to do it.
21:50:58 <oerjan> ehird: ok, *broken* lambda calculus
21:51:20 <ehird> I know that I absolutely must know when AnMaster goes to sleep.
21:51:21 <oerjan> maybe the LSD had something to do with that...
21:51:24 <ehird> I basically plan my day around him.
21:51:57 <oerjan> i thought he was a bit early tonight
21:52:19 <oerjan> maybe he has early classes tomorrow
21:52:41 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (while playing hnefatafl) <-- hm? XD
21:52:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, you made that up really?
21:52:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, you know what? Say goddamn "night" all the time
21:52:57 <ehird> As long as it means
21:53:02 <ehird> I AM ACTUALLY GOING TO TRY AND GO TO BED NOW
21:53:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, it's a real norse game
21:53:08 <ehird> HERE I AM GOING TO SAY A WORD NOW AND THEN STAY HERE
21:53:59 * oerjan confesses to sometimes saying good night, quitting, and then keeping on browsing the web in the other window
21:54:26 <oerjan> (well the good night is in the quit message, usually)
21:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster's "night" seems to mean "I double dare you to ping me. Come on. Come on, ping me. You're not going to ping me? I'll just say something anyway."
21:54:40 <ehird> Or perhaps "Hey, I observe that it is night time."
21:54:46 <ehird> That would make sense, sort of
21:55:03 <ehird> svarg: could you try typing in complete sentences?
21:55:15 <ehird> It sort of takes a few more seconds for you and saves all of us seconds of head scratching
21:55:20 <ehird> I have no idea what you just said
21:55:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: it was just the first norse word i could think of starting with hn (ok, maybe the only one)
21:56:12 <oerjan> svarg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_(programming_language)
21:56:14 <svarg> b+ was after B language
21:56:20 <svarg> i mean predecessor to c
21:56:39 <ehird> svarg: are you trolling
21:56:44 <oerjan> i thought B was directly before C
21:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, how do you pronounce it?
21:57:33 <ehird> There was no B+ or B++.
21:57:42 <ehird> C++'s predecessors were Simula-3 and C.
21:58:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume the old norse pronounced the h. i think icelandic devoices the n.
22:06:48 <ehird> I love how plt scheme has ⌘\ → λ
22:09:02 <ehird> "Control, Option, Command" is the order of the modifier keys on Apple keyboards.
22:09:11 <ehird> Command is used for most shortcuts, etc.
22:09:23 <ehird> (i.e., what Control is for Windows/Linux)
22:09:39 <ehird> Option and Control being added modifier keys. The terminal passes Control-<key>s unscathed.
22:09:52 <Deewiant> Saying "Command-\" would've been noticeably more clear
22:09:54 <ehird> It's a nicer position than where Control usually is, at least for my hands.
22:09:59 <Deewiant> I was wondering what the place of interest sign had to do with lambdas
22:10:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but the topic is shortcuts for Unicode characters, so it seemed appropriate.
22:10:13 <ehird> Also, the place of interest sign is pretty.
22:10:15 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it was some kind of digraph
22:11:02 <ehird> (Originally an Apple logo was used, and indeed an Apple logo adorns every Apple keyboard with that key until the latest revision - including the one I have - but Jobs axed that before it ever got out because he felt the overload of the logo in the menus "degraded" the logo to a commodity, so to speak.)
22:11:08 <ehird> (He is, um, crazy, if you haven't noticed.)
22:12:33 <AnMaster> I really like CapsLock for extra Ctrl. Means I have to stretch hand less awkwardly
22:14:07 <ehird> I could demonstrate why that is provably less ergonomic unless you have mutant hands, but I doubt you'd listen.
22:14:18 <ehird> oerjan: some would dispute "genius", but agreed
22:16:35 * ehird wonders wtf the first parameter to SYNTAX-RULES does
22:19:13 <Deewiant> Any identifiers in that list are marked as literals
22:19:48 <Deewiant> Meaning that if you use them in a template it matches against the value of the identifier
22:19:57 <Deewiant> Instead of being a pattern variable that matches anything
22:20:27 <ehird> (is it just me, or can syntax-rules thingies not transform the expression in any way?)
22:20:37 <ehird> (Like, you can't take a nested list and process that recursively into code)
22:20:58 <ehird> (Because (transform x) will turn into (transform <the actual expr>) and become code, not a code generator)
22:21:06 <ehird> I'm probably missing osmething obvious of course
22:21:53 <Deewiant> I'm still not sure what you're after
22:22:18 <ehird> e.g., (test (a b (c d e))) → (b a (d c e))
22:22:29 <ehird> take a list, transform that list, use it as code
22:26:07 <Deewiant> (define-syntax test (syntax-rules () (_ (a b c ...)) (b a (test (c ...))))) + a base case, or something
22:26:22 <Deewiant> I don't see why it shouldn't be possible
22:26:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Consider (a b c d e) → (b a c d e)
22:26:49 <ehird> You can do it for a fixed number of arguments, of course
22:27:29 <Deewiant> Then recurse into a different function
22:27:41 <Deewiant> That macro works for an arbitrary number of arguments
22:28:02 <ehird> It doesn't do the same thing
22:28:12 <ehird> It does (a b c d e) → (b a (d c e))
22:28:17 <ehird> Which is obviously possible
22:28:26 <ehird> But you can't do (map macro (foo ...))
22:29:13 <Deewiant> No, but you should be able to do a macro2 which does a map macro -ish thing
22:29:27 <Deewiant> I'm not 100% sure though and I can't be bothered to think on it now
22:29:49 <ehird> Deewiant: How? macro2 would just get (_ foo ...)
22:29:54 <ehird> Which is the exact same situation as macro
22:30:08 <Deewiant> Pattern match on whether foo is a list
22:30:27 <Deewiant> I guess you can do it as another case in one macro as well
22:30:40 <ehird> You know, this conversation is proceeding as "How do I do A?"" "Do X so that you can do A"
22:30:54 <Deewiant> I'll just let you figure it out then
22:31:00 <Deewiant> I intend to sleep for the next 7 hours ->
22:33:38 <oerjan> (define-syntax mapm (syntax-rules () (_ (macro (foo ...))) ((macro foo) ...))) or something, what's wrong with that admitting i have forgotten scheme macros years ago...
22:34:29 <ehird> I don't see how that can possibly work
22:34:48 <ehird> It expands (macro (foo a b c)) → ((macro foo) a b c)
22:35:37 <oerjan> oh, i thought ... did corresponding changes to everything as was done to the initial foo
22:35:46 <ehird> I don't actually know
22:36:17 <ehird> (mapm (macro (foo a b c))) → ((macro foo) a b c)
22:36:31 <ehird> I haven't tested it
22:37:54 <oerjan> i was hoping for (mapm macro (foo a b c)) anyway, whoever knows the syntax may adjust it...
22:39:22 <ehird> (define-syntax fluffy
22:39:22 <ehird> (syntax-rules (butt)
22:39:22 <ehird> [(_ (foo ...)) ((fluffy foo) ...)]))
22:40:03 <fizzie> Here's one too complicated thing:
22:40:05 <fizzie> > (define-syntax reverse (syntax-rules (rev) ((_ rev () x) x) ((_ rev (a . b) z) (reverse rev b ((reverse a) . z))) ((_ (list ...)) (reverse rev (list ...) ())) ((_ item) item)))
22:40:05 <fizzie> > (reverse (5 4 3 (2 1 +) +))
22:40:10 <ehird> well, in plt scheme Pretty Big at least; in R5RS you can't do the [] ofc
22:40:21 <ehird> but [] in drscheme alternate paren types and I'm too lazy to rebind it
22:40:34 <ehird> fizzie: fuck you, that's what I was writing :-(
22:40:39 <fizzie> I was just trying to illustrate that people use special-symbol thingamajicks to do multiple-cases-of-processing style things in a single macro.
22:40:46 <ehird> I was just doing (a b +) → (+ a b)
22:40:52 <ehird> instead of (a b +) -> (+ b a)
22:41:01 <ehird> But yeah, I think syntax-rules is kind of... awful?
22:41:11 <fizzie> It's hygienic, that's not awful.
22:41:13 <ehird> Feels very low-level doing things like that
22:41:35 <ehird> fizzie: Sure, but hygienic != gee, well, you can do simple rewriting unless you want to get TRICKY
22:41:37 <fizzie> You can look at syntax-case if you like, that's what all the big boys use. I've never bothered to learn it properly, though.
22:42:30 <fizzie> I guess they actually incorporated syntax-case in R6RS or something, I don't know.
22:42:35 <ehird> I get, from R5RS fans, a general vibe of "syntax-case is so impure and unsvelte :("
22:42:42 <ehird> Oh, if R6RS has it it probably sucks
22:44:21 <ehird> (Yeah I just wanted an excuse to use the word svelte, sue me)
22:44:26 <ehird> Also, I'm attempting to stop using semicolons
22:45:04 <ehird> Oh, I see how ... works
22:45:55 <ehird> "x ..." in the expansion, where x involves "foo ..." from the pattern, turns into "x_0 x_1 x_2 ..." for each foo, with the foo variable replaced with the element.
22:46:10 <ehird> I just though that "foo ..." was a weird two-atom name for all of 'em.
22:46:42 * ehird wonders why PLT has a memory limit of 128 meg by default
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22:52:56 <fizzie> Actually I think the deep-reverse macro is pretty much a direct translation of a reasonable deep-reverse function -- http://scheme.pastebin.com/m39b7123f -- except with list? and null? implemented with pattern-matching.
22:53:29 <ehird> Yes, and it'd be nice if you could do (expand (func x)) in a macro, but that's so unhygienic and stuff.
22:54:44 <fizzie> Just write defmacro/define-macro transformers, then. Expect people to start to sneeze, though; being unhygienic means you're propagating the what-was-it flu.
22:55:00 <ehird> Yeah, that sounds right.
22:55:14 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess so. For some reason I was thinking "horse".
22:55:22 <ehird> Oh, it may have been unicorn flu.
22:55:31 -!- ehird has set topic: UNICORN FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:55:37 <fizzie> Unicorn flu makes you sneeze out rainbows. (Away.)
22:55:51 <ehird> Sneeze them out AwAY?
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00:33:59 <mycroftiv> im so happy, i finally found my 'information theory and its engineering applications' book after it had been lost for months
00:34:30 <mycroftiv> i ranted to this channel about how frustrated i was i couldnt find it months ago, and ive spent countless hours searching since then - i know youve all been up night crying on my behalf
00:34:57 <mycroftiv> well, you may once again sleep happily in the knowledge that D.A. Bell's classic work is once again safe on my shelves
00:35:20 <oerjan> well i _have_ been up night a lot...
00:36:02 <oerjan> hm that name rings a *hit by falling anvil*
00:37:26 <mycroftiv> so far as i can tell, its been established for a long time that informational entropy and physical entropy are in fact the exact same thing, but lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is unclear
00:39:13 <mycroftiv> whoa, the wikipedia entropy article has been massively rewritten, its much better now - so of course it has tags saying its worse
00:39:41 <oerjan> well that article can only get worse, naturally
00:40:09 <mycroftiv> unless we attach a good heat sink to it!
00:40:24 <ehird> Oh, re: R6RS pairs being immutable - pairs are mutable, but set-car!/cdr! are in a separate library and there's a big honking fat "DO NOT USE" on 'em.
00:41:47 <ehird> "You know one neato idea that Perl hasn't borrowed: not being a giant pile of half digested crap." — reddit troll
00:42:04 <ehird> (Immediately following, similarly hilarious sentence: "The language doesn't even have named arguments and it treats arrays as weird lumps of memory that aren't even first class.")
00:43:23 <mycroftiv> dammit, the wikipedia article still has this garbage in it: The question of the link between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy is a hotly debated topic. Some authors argue that there is a link between the two,[39][40][41] while others will argue that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.[42]
00:43:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: would you prefer wikipedia denied that there's any controversy at all?
00:44:12 <ehird> You appear to have a problem of distinguishing "I strongly hold this to be true" with "Every material should treat this as true and never question it or even mention any questionings of it"
00:44:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: the article contradicts itself unfortunately...because earlier and later in the article it states their equivalence...so it should really be one way or another, shouldnt it?
00:45:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: "X and Y are equivalent" and then "Whether X and Y are equivalent is controversial" are not contradictory
00:45:35 <ehird> Although I suspect the former is more like "X and Y are generally accepted to be equivalent"
00:45:41 <ehird> Which makes them even less contradictory
00:45:50 <ehird> Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a list of facts
00:46:24 <mycroftiv> anyway, the point is that the article is disorganized and makes 'weasel worded' statements like that when it should just cover the material
00:47:05 <mycroftiv> the citation [42] is also being abused, it doesnt deny the equivalence, instead it makes the claim that they should be treated as *semantically* distinct
00:47:08 <ehird> See, "just covering the material" isn't the same as conveniently not mentioning any controversy
00:47:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: Fine, it may be a bad line
00:47:19 <mycroftiv> i want it do *more* than just mention the controversy
00:47:26 <ehird> I'm just saying that the reasons you objected to are bad
00:48:13 <mycroftiv> i object to that line because it doesnt provide information and id say its basically misleading - there is other good information in the article, and that section should focus on it - i *agree* there is a huge controversy!
00:48:27 <ehird> but that's not really what you said
00:49:01 <mycroftiv> i started out by saying 'lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is still unclear'
00:49:41 <mycroftiv> i want the wikipedia article to act to clarify the confusion with good solid sourced information as vetted by a presumably expert community
00:50:22 <mycroftiv> im not expert enough personally to try to clean it up
00:50:56 <ehird> if only experts could edit wikipedia articles, well (a) it'd be citizendium and suck and (b) there'd be less drama but (c) a lot more cocksucking
00:51:05 <ehird> and (d) some more crappage
00:51:19 <ehird> did i mention it'd be rubbish./
00:52:13 <mycroftiv> i edit wikipedia frequently, but part of being a good editor is knowing when you arent quite good enough for a given topic
00:54:24 <mycroftiv> i read the wikipedia entropy related articles quite a bit and they are generally solid, but they are mostly written (i presume) by students and arent quite up to the standard of the treatment of the subject in books written by experts, it would be nice to get them there
00:57:02 <mycroftiv> the thing that makes me so angry about wikipedia is all the editors who totally ignore the examples of previous encyclopedias in making up tons of absurd rules
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00:57:25 <mycroftiv> for instance, the music theory essays in the encyclopedia britannica 1912 edition were by donald francis tovey, and are total masterpieces
00:57:46 <ehird> old britannicas suck so much. no ctrl-f!
00:57:49 <mycroftiv> but they would be angrily rejected by tons of current wikipedia editors as 'non-encyclopedic' and 'like a personal essay' etc
00:57:56 <ehird> if someone's HTMLed an old britannica that'd be neat
00:58:12 <mycroftiv> that 1912 britannica actually got folded into wikipedia several years ago
00:58:22 <mycroftiv> it formed the core of a lot of the 'generic info'
00:59:27 <mycroftiv> wait, it was 1911 edition, off by a year
01:00:06 <ehird> yes, but then modified and stufjkflgl;j
01:00:34 <mycroftiv> because the interesting thing is that the 1911 brittanica contradicts a lot of the wikipedia 'rules' that the rule-crazed people love
01:00:51 <mycroftiv> it has a ton of POV essays written by experts in their field, basically
01:01:01 <mycroftiv> such as the Donald Francis Tovey music theory essays i love so much
01:04:04 <mycroftiv> nothing stirs a conversation up like old D.F. Tovey, those emininent British musicologists are so beloved!
01:05:53 <ehird> green s 2 b + 5 o 4 2 9 0 10 one 2 7 9 0 4
01:16:11 <oerjan> blue 2 a m 4 - 6 t 3 1 19 x l
01:18:49 <ehird> you don't understand the ((((kkkkkkkkkk semantic
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02:06:44 <Sgeo> Would it be wrong for me to make an esolang based on a scripting language for something that exists?
02:09:52 <ehird> Would it kill you to stop asking stupid questions?
02:13:15 <oerjan> Would it be too much to ask for a bit of if the which is?
02:16:33 <ehird> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:17:14 <oerjan> Several times, in fact.
02:18:04 <oerjan> On the other hand, if that would have the requested before that then if the whole question very much.
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03:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: You know how you said file info dialogs use binary storage prefixes?
03:14:03 <ehird> OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard uses metric now
03:29:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities.
03:29:29 <ehird> The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes.
03:30:00 <ehird> by all disk companies
03:30:08 <ehird> and how is it sleazy marketing? see all my other examples
03:30:36 <ehird> Besides, 2^30 is really arbitrary; the "binary thousand" is just the power of 2 closest to the decimal number 1000
03:30:43 <ehird> as well as all the other similar numbers
03:31:58 <ehird> [03:29] ehird: bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities.
03:31:58 <ehird> [03:29] ehird: The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes.
03:32:18 <ehird> (As well as, you know, everything outside of computation)
03:32:31 <ehird> *computing; computation is a thing computers do
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14:34:34 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right?
14:37:26 <oklopol> i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference
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15:21:04 <asiekierka> I should get to work on my Base 5 esolang
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15:31:28 <asiekierka> @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O<<<223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O
15:33:11 <asiekierka> @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O>223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O
15:33:24 <oklopol> what's dynamic cell memory
15:34:02 <oklopol> so you extend it explicitly
15:34:21 <oklopol> infinitely extending + wraps around don't mix otherwise, so i was confused
15:34:39 <asiekierka> but allows for infinite memory in theory
15:35:07 <asiekierka> if you just do @ a whole load of times
15:36:59 <oklopol> so that proves it's tc, but the proof requires a superturing compiler
15:37:26 <asiekierka> as long as the computer has infinite memory
15:37:46 <oklopol> proof don't require memory
15:38:18 <oklopol> the compiler needs to know when the program halts
15:38:33 <oklopol> but, if it can do that, then you can compile all halting programs to your language
15:39:17 <oklopol> but, because all programs either halt or not, that does prove all bf programs that halt can be compiled to your language, there's just no algorithm to do it.
15:39:35 <oklopol> i mean... that doesn't prove such an algo exists, naturally one does
15:39:42 <oklopol> because you can extend by need
15:40:03 <asiekierka> counting how many cells did a program use
15:40:11 <asiekierka> That'd require to interpret the whole program
15:40:14 <oklopol> this is a very subtle and interesting issue, don't try to understand it
15:40:45 <oklopol> i think it is, but you need to show how to actually extend the tape
15:40:51 <oklopol> because you need to do it every time you go out of tape
15:40:59 <oklopol> otherwise there's no way to actually do the compilation
15:41:21 <oklopol> non-halting programs can't be compiled the way you said
15:41:29 <oklopol> asiekierka: but how do you know you're out of the tape?
15:41:34 <asiekierka> to add a cell ONLY if it's the last cell
15:41:36 <oklopol> you just wrap around if you go out of it
15:42:25 <asiekierka> well it was designed to wrap the tape around AND make it of definable size
15:42:31 <oklopol> that would be the boring way out of it
15:42:55 <asiekierka> the design means that it can't create a new cell if you're out of the tape either
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15:43:05 <asiekierka> Also i don't want it to stop execution
15:43:16 <oklopol> the "more interesting" one (or maybe just more tedious) is to keep the index you're at, currently, and the size of memory allocated, always with you
15:43:41 <asiekierka> The interpreter can by default only read values 000-444 (base 5)
15:43:53 <oklopol> by having the tape contain actual data in every second cell, and in the other cells, carry around these indices
15:44:25 <asiekierka> I could add a command to output the index of the cell you're at into the current cell
15:45:02 <oklopol> you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P
15:45:03 <FireFly> asiekierka, reminds me of my RinGy language
15:45:37 <FireFly> Memory is originally finite, _ inserts a blank memory set to 0
15:45:38 <asiekierka> Well, BF doesn't tell you about it either
15:46:03 <oklopol> i'm assuming bf with infinite memory
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15:46:18 <oklopol> otherwise bf is a trivial language
15:46:37 <oklopol> you can just list all programs and their outputs, and run them in constant time :)
15:46:59 <oklopol> i've turned into a mathematician :<
15:47:04 <asiekierka> <...> - if the (index%125) doesnt match up with the current register's value, do ...
15:47:08 <oklopol> well, gotta go read number theory ->
15:49:25 <FireFly> It has some other stuff making it harder to determine, though
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16:46:12 <oklofok> well, in two years, it'll be 2012, and i'll be living in the basement waiting for the end of the world
16:46:43 <oklofok> i'll be 23 in *three years*, so don't give any years
16:46:49 <oklofok> so, second time i forget my age
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17:29:30 <Libertine> Oh this is an esoteric programming channel
17:29:46 <Libertine> I was looking for other esoteric stuff
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17:30:10 <ais523> Libertine: sorry, I'm not entirely sure where to find it; freenode is probably the wrong network, though
17:30:56 <asiekierka> you mean like esoteric esoteric programming?
17:31:07 <asiekierka> esoteric programming in esoteric programming languages
17:31:24 <ais523> asiekierka: no, it's someone who's come to the wrong channel by mistake; 'esoteric' has more than one meaning
17:33:21 <Libertine> So I heard brainfuck is an esoteric language, anyone here use it?
17:33:34 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
17:33:51 <ais523> mostly, though, we aren't mad enough to try to use it for anything serious
17:34:16 <ais523> well, many esolangs are designed to look difficult
17:35:22 <ais523> and some actually are more difficult than others
17:35:47 <Libertine> I have tried to program in Java (my first programming language) but I find it difficult
17:36:05 <ais523> no, it's because Java is really obnoxious
17:36:37 <oklofok> for a beginner, java is a horrible choice, imo
17:36:40 <Libertine> I hear this from many experienced programmers; java is awful etc. Not a good first language.
17:36:59 <Libertine> Which languages are considered good for a beginner?
17:37:12 <ais523> oklofok: let's say, I know someone else whose first language was Java, and they ended up awful at programming
17:37:32 <ais523> and yes, I was thinking Python too; although there's lots I don't like about it, it's OK for a beginner
17:37:50 <ais523> BASIC's good if you don't want to be demoralized, although it's less good for actual learning
17:38:12 <oklofok> with java, you never start "thinking in programming", because you're first instinct when you see a problem isn't to quickly code it up, or at least quickly think of a solution in your head
17:38:16 <oklofok> because it's a verbose language
17:38:22 <pikhq> Python is a all-around good language. Flawed, but it doesn't do anything actually *horribly*.
17:38:44 <ais523> another advantage of Python is that it is at least easy to read
17:40:29 <Libertine> I enjoy programming in Java at times, but it seems like a lot of effort to to accomplish minor tasks. I have two large half-read Java books gathering dust, so should I start learning Python to get back some of my motivation? Thanks for answering my questions oklofok, ais523, pikhq
17:41:34 <pikhq> Definitely learn Python. One of the things it definitely gets right is that it's easy to do minor tasks in it.
17:41:44 <oklofok> lot of effort for minor tasks, and most of all lots of effort to build a good abstraction, although that's true for most OO, i guess.
17:41:55 <pikhq> (this feature makes any language much easier to learn)
17:47:21 <AnMaster> where does sudo store the needed info for the "don't have to enter password again if you recently used sudo in the same terminal" thingy
17:47:35 <AnMaster> (for some reason it doesn't work between different terminal tabs for me *shrug*)
17:47:58 <ais523> AnMaster: /var/run/sudo
17:48:42 <ais523> the GUI versions of sudo tend to use daemons, to avoid writing anything to disk
17:49:07 <AnMaster> ok that directory contains a directory with the user name, which contains three empty files: 0 1 unknown
17:50:15 <ais523> maybe the timestamps of the files are relevant?
17:51:20 <AnMaster> seems like a weird way to store it
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18:02:35 <AnMaster> I don't understand screen dimming timeout on my laptop...
18:03:00 <AnMaster> sometimes it dims after about a minute inactive, sometimes it is about half a minute, sometimes closer to 5 minutes
18:03:09 <AnMaster> all during the same session... and on AC...
18:31:49 <asiekierka> I wish there was an esolang that can do 3d rendering
18:39:31 <asiekierka> Is there an esolang that never says/returns the truth?
18:41:10 <asiekierka> if you want it to print "Hello, world!"
18:41:15 <asiekierka> it saying anything EXCEPT "Hello, world!"
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19:42:35 <AnMaster> iirc there is a raytracer in it?
19:42:48 <ais523> AnMaster: Deltaplex has primitives for 3D graphics, though
19:42:51 <ais523> so likely is better for it
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19:43:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway, all tc languages can render 3D graphics, for example I could imagine a bf render.bf < input > output
19:43:46 <AnMaster> that outputs a ppm or even png
19:44:10 <AnMaster> and iirc ppm is a trivially simple format
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20:01:23 <fizzie> It's just ascii-texty; Windows bitmaps aren't much more complicated. PNG would probably be a lot more boring to write, lots of header bytes there. (But you can put uncompressed blocks into a deflate/zlib stream.)
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20:56:55 <oerjan> 06:34:34 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right?
20:56:55 <oerjan> 06:37:26 <oklopol> i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference
20:57:57 <oklofok> as always, context is left as an exercise
20:58:35 <oklofok> except i've decided to try to do that less
21:11:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, I time travelled here from yesterday
21:13:14 <oerjan> oklofok: i can find nothing i said that provides context for those two lines
21:13:44 <oerjan> (in the last day or so)
21:13:53 <oklofok> oh it was much further than that
21:14:01 <oklofok> my brain isn't all that linear
21:14:15 <oerjan> hm might be easier to look up the xkcd
21:14:36 <oklofok> not sure it was linked, you said they made an xkcd about your life
21:14:51 <oklofok> the one where the dude knows french
21:15:54 <oerjan> i vaguely recall making a joke about it, lessee...
21:16:27 -!- ehird has joined.
21:16:36 <oerjan> ah, http://xkcd.com/621/
21:17:09 <oerjan> i don't think we ever got past present and perfect tenses, anyway
21:17:45 <oerjan> (past present not a phrase, there)
21:17:49 <oklofok> also you don't share your dreams
21:19:56 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (past present not a phrase, there) <-- damn.. it sounded so logical
21:20:09 <oerjan> hm today i had this dream where i was in my childhood home (i think) and it suddenly dropped over a cliff
21:20:38 <AnMaster> (sorry for that oerjan. credit should go to you probably)
21:20:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: i didn't notice it until you pointed it out
21:20:58 <ehird> 07:45:02 <oklopol> you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P
21:21:03 <ehird> a fixed-size tape is obviously not TC
21:21:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think I copied a joke you made some years ago
21:21:12 <oklofok> you misunderstood the issue, ehird
21:21:12 <ehird> even if program-defined
21:21:29 <oklofok> any halting program is compilable to it
21:21:35 <ehird> i don't think I did, I think if you think I did you're reading too much intellectualism into asie's lang
21:21:56 <oklofok> that was all i said, the tc part was about indexing being possible, but hard to explain how to do it rigorously
21:21:59 <ehird> oklofok: ,[>] is trivially not
21:22:32 <oklofok> what about it, and do you mean ,[>,]
21:23:04 <oerjan> it was like the house was balancing on the edge, and just tipped. except i have to deduce that since i dreamed from the inside of the house
21:23:06 <ehird> you can't give ,[>] a fixed tape size, yet it sometimes halts
21:23:17 <ehird> well, i guess ,negate[>] would be more interesting
21:24:04 <ehird> i think you will find it does not
21:25:37 <oerjan> and then it continued moving, i think, but then i woke up so i don't know where it was moving to. not that i was dreaming the landscape clearly anyhow
21:25:56 <ehird> no, I meant ,{go > input times} but that involves so much code and dkjdkflhggk
21:26:30 <ehird> look, I slept at 5:30am after getting severely tired at 8pm, then woke up, lay in bed for hours and finally got up at 8pm, absolutely tired
21:26:36 <ehird> i am hardly to be expected to be coherent
21:27:03 <oklofok> i'm not judging your incoherence, just stating facts and rubbing my nose
21:27:36 <ehird> i had to go check between was a real word just now
21:28:13 <oerjan> also, last time i drank beer was after christmas, when the landlady came down with some leftovers from the party
21:28:34 <ehird> 08:44:14 <Deewiant> http://apina.biz/19780.png
21:28:35 <ehird> i'm like a blend between 15/18 (my curtains darken a lot and cover the whole window), 10 (because those curtains are quite often, gasp, open) and 23 (because I have a modern computer)
21:28:37 <oerjan> now i only need to make a blog with apologies and i should be all set
21:28:54 <oklofok> oerjan: do it, i'd love to read your blog
21:29:11 <oerjan> oklofok: even if it _only_ contains apologies for not posting more?
21:29:15 <oklofok> i wish interesting people wrote blogs :\
21:30:03 <ehird> 09:29:46 <Libertine> I was looking for other esoteric stuff
21:30:04 <ehird> I wonder how anyone who can take such other esoteric stuff seriously knows what brainfuck is
21:30:08 <oklofok> oerjan: well naturally i'd read it
21:30:10 <ehird> well, rather, knows java more
21:30:20 <ehird> admittedly it doesn't require much intelligence to fail at coding java, but :)
21:31:13 <ehird> 10:02:35 <AnMaster> I don't understand screen dimming timeout on my laptop...
21:31:14 <ehird> 10:03:00 <AnMaster> sometimes it dims after about a minute inactive, sometimes it is about half a minute, sometimes closer to 5 minutes
21:31:14 <ehird> 10:03:09 <AnMaster> all during the same session... and on AC...
21:31:14 <ehird> similar to http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/08/20/9876113.aspx?
21:33:18 <oerjan> oklofok: the basic problem is my life is boring so nothing to write about, i have no strong opinions (except that it's horribly wrong to have strong opinions), and i don't particularly care to write about things that people can read elsewhere
21:33:50 <oklofok> oerjan: you could write about the little things, record your movements
21:33:57 <ehird> seems like a good feature to me
21:34:01 <oklofok> i'd love that, maybe you could set up like a video camera?
21:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, definitely wasn't a media player or such though
21:34:09 <ehird> oerjan: write about how much you hate strong opinions
21:34:14 <ehird> AnMaster: err, read the post properly
21:34:15 <AnMaster> ehird, but possibly something like the other alternative
21:34:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ... please wait for me to finish my comment first ;P
21:34:53 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, read the post
21:34:57 <oerjan> ehird: hm a comedy blog... maybe
21:34:57 <ehird> regardless of program
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> ehird, but possibly something like the other alternative
21:35:15 <ehird> but then the former wasn't even mentioned
21:35:21 <ehird> so talking about it to me is fucking stupid
21:35:33 <AnMaster> "First of all, there are ways for programs to block the screen saver entirely. Calling SetThreadExecutionState(ES_DISPLAY_REQUIRED), is how a program says, "Even though there is no mouse or keyboard input, the screen is indeed in use, so don't blank it or start the screen saver." Media playback programs use this so the screen saver doesn't kick in while you're watching a movie on your DVD, and present
21:35:33 <AnMaster> ation programs use it so the screen saver doesn't start in the middle of your multi-million-dollar proposal. "
21:35:52 <AnMaster> clearly a figment of imagination that quote
21:37:02 <FireFly> Comment says it's to delay it
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, it wasn't temp disabled due to some such app later exiting
21:41:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> so that proves it's tc, but the proof requires a superturing compiler
21:41:52 <oerjan> the definition of tc requires that the reduction is done by something subturing, halting.
21:43:10 <ehird> MATHEMATICS IN YOUR FACE OKLOPOL
21:47:11 <oklofok> really i just tried to get asiekierka to understand the whole indexing issue, compilation vs interpretation time extending
21:49:10 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure i've seen that elsewhere, having to extend dynamically, carrying a bignum on the bf tape
21:49:37 <oklofok> i guess you have to solve it even in the basic infinite tape with bignums problem
21:49:52 <oklofok> or a similar problem at least
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21:55:53 <ehird> doo dooo dooo doo dooooooooooooooooooo
21:56:21 <ehird> do the doo doo do, do the do the do the do the doo doo
21:56:37 <ehird> do doo doo do the do doo doo, do doo doo doo doo dooooooo!!!!!!!!
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21:58:36 <ehird> vulgar #esoteric, of vulgarities hitherto, giving vulgarities within
22:01:35 <ehird> vagrant vagabonds are vulgar in #esoteric
22:02:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:04:10 <oerjan> variously vagrant vagabonds
22:05:11 <ehird> variously vagrant vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:05:20 -!- puzzlet__ has joined.
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22:08:08 <ehird> Vanguard! Variously vagrant vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:08:43 <ehird> Variously vagrant vanguard vagabonds' vocation vulgar
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22:13:23 <ehird> Vanguard! Variously vagrant vampire vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:13:37 <ehird> Variously vagrant vanguard vampire vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:14:43 <oerjan> vulgarly vomiting voracious vampire vagabonds
22:14:49 <ehird> The colours... the
22:14:53 <ehird> A butterfly on LSD
22:15:00 <ehird> WHY IS THIS THE PERL 6 SITE
22:15:14 <ehird> Ooh, nice "download" link, didya make that with johnny's first glossy button maker?
22:15:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAGH MY EYES
22:15:51 <oerjan> "I think there's a tendency to
22:15:51 <oerjan> go way too abstract in most of these proposals. I want something
22:15:52 <oerjan> with gut appeal on the order of Tux."
22:16:07 <ehird> I think penguins are tastier than butterflies
22:16:11 <ehird> Just guessing though
22:16:23 <oerjan> so larry wall confused gut appeal with gut wrenching?
22:17:11 <Sgeo> The only part of that site that's annoying to me is "spokesbug"
22:17:29 <Sgeo> Honestly, it might not be an entirely professional looking site, but does it need to be?
22:18:13 <ehird> or I'll have to conclude you're both colourblind and a three year year old who wants to be addressed as such
22:18:56 <oerjan> oh well it's certainly cheerful at least
22:19:13 <ehird> cheerful like vomit that makes the shape of a smile
22:20:06 <oerjan> "WARNING: Image may be offensive to cynics and other people who think they have taste"
22:20:23 <Sgeo> It's not as bad as http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes
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22:20:28 <ehird> you're being sarcastic right oerjan
22:20:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:20:44 <oerjan> yes, except i'm not quite sure against who
22:21:44 <oerjan> consider it part of my recently declared jihad against strong opinions
22:22:51 <ehird> i think strong opinions are quite alright
22:23:16 <FireFly> "submitted 8 månader ago by"
22:23:32 <ehird> FireFly: incomplete translation
22:23:52 <FireFly> Not with that eye-bleading version
22:24:01 <ehird> wait, you can read the text? :P
22:24:48 <ehird> i'm made of seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:24:52 <ehird> seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:24:54 <ehird> beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepets
22:24:56 <ehird> seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:25:15 <ehird> BUUUUUUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND
22:27:34 <ehird> oklofok: yes, but you have that IE stylesheeter
22:28:11 <ehird> oklofok: there's an awful LSD bug to the right, and the boxes are in colours alternately 3-year-oldesque and puke-looking
22:28:24 <ehird> and they have shadows.
22:29:06 <oklofok> hmm, right, i mostly liked the color scheme
22:29:34 <oklofok> the bug isn't that bad when the rest is black and white imo, although it could be a little less gay
22:29:35 <ehird> oklofok: the white on black colour scheme? :P
22:29:41 <ehird> don't forget the font!
22:29:50 <ehird> the wonderfully monospaced font.
22:34:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Your opinion on strong opinions seems to be ... rather strong.
22:35:11 <ehird> GregorR: YOU GOT THE JOKE!
22:35:28 * ehird hands GregorR a Certificate of Having Got the Joke
22:35:39 <GregorR> Can I have a certificate of having announced the joke?
22:35:59 * ehird hands GregorR a Forged Certificate of Having Announced the Joke
22:36:28 * GregorR looks at it carefully through a monocle.
22:36:47 <ehird> GregorR: It has a EURion constellation on it.
22:36:51 <ehird> I thought they were for certificates.
22:36:54 <ehird> Turns out they're for money.
22:36:59 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's illegal.
22:39:05 <fizzie> Someone at work suggested embedding that thing in a figure in some published scientific paper. Would be a nice surprise for someone trying to run it through a copier.
22:39:24 <ehird> "Notes on the EURion Constellation"
22:39:28 <AnMaster> <FireFly> "submitted 8 månader ago by" <ehird> wait, you can read the text? :P <-- that? yes
22:39:31 <ehird> "right, I'll give this to the prof"
22:39:38 <ehird> "put it in and..."
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22:39:40 <ehird> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
22:39:49 <ehird> hmm wait, how did he print it in the first place
22:39:59 <ehird> damn, that would have been a more realistic joke
22:40:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Someone at work suggested embedding that thing in a figure in some published scientific paper. Would be a nice surprise for someone trying to run it through a copier. <-- what are you talking about?
22:41:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurion_constellation
22:45:19 <fizzie> From what I've read, it's mainly really only color photocopiers that use it, and the image-processing-software currency-detect-o-tron does something else.
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22:45:50 <ehird> I scanned and printed out a £5 note with the scanner/printer here
22:45:53 <ehird> I GUESS IT'S TOO DUMB
22:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that note has the pattern?
22:46:24 <ehird> British pound (sterling)Bank of England £5 (2002), £10 (2000), £20 (1999 & 2007)£50 (not yet upgraded)
22:46:46 <ehird> Incidentally, one side of our coins have a new design: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/New_British_Coinage_2008.jpg
22:46:52 <ehird> I think it's pretty.
22:47:09 <ehird> I mean, it looks like they're all misprinted!
22:47:40 <ehird> It totally does look like their printer was misaligned. :)
22:49:02 <ehird> Old coins: http://z.about.com/d/studenttravel/1/0/j/B/all-british-coins.jpg
22:49:21 <ehird> Lacks the two-pound, though
22:49:25 <ehird> Which looks AWESOME
22:49:29 <ehird> http://www.1yet.com/uploaded_images/TwoPoundCoinBack%5B1%5D-762186.jpg
22:49:37 <ehird> They're separate coins: http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/2Pound_6300J2.jpg
22:49:43 <ehird> It's like you put a gold ring around a one pound coin
22:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I find non-round coins unusual. Ok?
22:50:02 <fizzie> Wikipedia sourcelessly says "an equilaterally curved heptagon to aid identification"; I like the irregular shape.
22:50:06 <ehird> You're just a stupid dirty Swede.
22:50:26 <Pthing> the 2 point coin doesn't come apart
22:50:32 <ehird> http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/2Pound_6300J2.jpg
22:50:38 <ehird> Yes, but uneasily :P
22:50:50 <Pthing> that's a general property of metal
22:50:54 <ehird> A more real sort of picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/4/47/20080404153939!British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG
22:51:30 <ehird> I want a decagon coin.
22:52:20 <oerjan> huh there's a spam page on the wiki which is an edit to an old spam that was missed...
22:52:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I want an n sided coin where lim n->inf
22:52:40 <ehird> AnMaster: You realise you just said "I want a circular coin".
22:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, that was my whole point XD
22:53:01 <ehird> Yes, well, it wasn't funny so I wasn't sure
22:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to be dry and boring
22:53:36 <ehird> Yes, but you didn't have to try for that; you always are.
22:53:40 <fizzie> http://www.joelscoins.com/oops.htm "unusual coins"; but the stranger ones aren't in regular use.
22:54:37 <oerjan> wait that russian joke was actually a bit funny, so maybe not really spam
22:54:41 <ehird> fizzie: Somalian coins? Hmm, right, I guess it does have some sort of market
22:54:44 <ehird> despite being anarchic
22:54:49 <oerjan> except how would it get on that page otherwise
22:54:51 <ehird> I'm silly, incidentally
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22:56:01 <fizzie> There's also a geocities page for someone who's trying to collect different shapes.
22:56:18 <ehird> fioh my god those three-sided coins
22:56:21 <ehird> best coin shape ever
22:56:57 <ehird> xD @ somali republic guitar coins
22:57:13 <oerjan> ehird: that spam page i mentioned, the old spam was a joke in russian
22:57:31 <ehird> oerjan: translation?
22:58:11 <oerjan> google's lousy translation: "The teacher asks Vovochka: - Little Johnny, why do you yesterday did not come to school? - Grandpa burns received ... - Oh! But seriously hurt? - Of course! In the crematorium are not joking."
22:58:30 <ehird> xD that's funny because it isn't
22:59:00 <oerjan> (little Johnny == Vovochka, except they're in different case and google only translates one of them fully to english)
22:59:56 <ehird> http://imgur.com/RX28c.jpg someone submit this to http://xkcd.com/chesscoaster/ :P
23:00:13 <oerjan> (nominative and accusative, not upper and lower)
23:04:47 <AnMaster> it is scary how much of what xkcd suggests is later done in real life
23:04:55 <AnMaster> think what awesome power that is
23:05:13 <ehird> there was a comic about that, except he said it less... stupidly
23:05:22 <ehird> at least i think it was a comic.
23:05:40 <ehird> also, it's not really awesome power. consider how many readers, some MUST be planning a trip somewhere,
23:05:48 <ehird> with a rollercoaster
23:05:52 <ehird> and it's not that hard to glue a chessboard together
23:06:00 <ehird> so it's like 15 minutes of work total for internet fame
23:06:12 <AnMaster> heh maybe. But what about that wetriffs?
23:06:14 <ehird> not exactly a huge thing to get people to do
23:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, it's not like people have egos to be stroked or anything
23:06:40 <oerjan> ehird: he added a disclaimer to the flying with counterweight comic
23:07:37 <oerjan> or rather that was the hovertext
23:07:57 <ehird> well that's not referencing it
23:08:03 <ehird> that's just a standard joke "don't try this at home"
23:08:11 <ehird> which everyone does
23:08:17 <oerjan> that's still relevant though
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23:23:57 <ehird> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!!!
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23:40:35 <coppro> awesome... local sci-fi station is actually getting the new Stargate series as it comes out, rather than months later
23:43:07 <oerjan> they probably have a time machinr