←2009-08-30 2009-08-31 2009-09-01→ ↑2009 ↑all
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00:33:59 <mycroftiv> im so happy, i finally found my 'information theory and its engineering applications' book after it had been lost for months
00:34:22 <ehird> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
00:34:30 <mycroftiv> i ranted to this channel about how frustrated i was i couldnt find it months ago, and ive spent countless hours searching since then - i know youve all been up night crying on my behalf
00:34:41 <ehird> Yes :<
00:34:57 <mycroftiv> well, you may once again sleep happily in the knowledge that D.A. Bell's classic work is once again safe on my shelves
00:35:20 <oerjan> well i _have_ been up night a lot...
00:36:02 <oerjan> hm that name rings a *hit by falling anvil*
00:36:11 <mycroftiv> haha
00:37:26 <mycroftiv> so far as i can tell, its been established for a long time that informational entropy and physical entropy are in fact the exact same thing, but lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is unclear
00:39:13 <mycroftiv> whoa, the wikipedia entropy article has been massively rewritten, its much better now - so of course it has tags saying its worse
00:39:41 <oerjan> well that article can only get worse, naturally
00:39:45 * oerjan ducks
00:40:09 <mycroftiv> unless we attach a good heat sink to it!
00:40:24 <ehird> Oh, re: R6RS pairs being immutable - pairs are mutable, but set-car!/cdr! are in a separate library and there's a big honking fat "DO NOT USE" on 'em.
00:41:12 <mycroftiv> do it anyway just to be a rebel
00:41:47 <ehird> "You know one neato idea that Perl hasn't borrowed: not being a giant pile of half digested crap." — reddit troll
00:42:04 <ehird> (Immediately following, similarly hilarious sentence: "The language doesn't even have named arguments and it treats arrays as weird lumps of memory that aren't even first class.")
00:43:23 <mycroftiv> dammit, the wikipedia article still has this garbage in it: The question of the link between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy is a hotly debated topic. Some authors argue that there is a link between the two,[39][40][41] while others will argue that they have absolutely nothing to do with each other.[42]
00:43:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: would you prefer wikipedia denied that there's any controversy at all?
00:44:12 <ehird> You appear to have a problem of distinguishing "I strongly hold this to be true" with "Every material should treat this as true and never question it or even mention any questionings of it"
00:44:18 <ehird> s/with/from/
00:44:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: the article contradicts itself unfortunately...because earlier and later in the article it states their equivalence...so it should really be one way or another, shouldnt it?
00:45:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: "X and Y are equivalent" and then "Whether X and Y are equivalent is controversial" are not contradictory
00:45:35 <ehird> Although I suspect the former is more like "X and Y are generally accepted to be equivalent"
00:45:41 <ehird> Which makes them even less contradictory
00:45:50 <ehird> Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a list of facts
00:46:24 <mycroftiv> anyway, the point is that the article is disorganized and makes 'weasel worded' statements like that when it should just cover the material
00:47:05 <mycroftiv> the citation [42] is also being abused, it doesnt deny the equivalence, instead it makes the claim that they should be treated as *semantically* distinct
00:47:08 <ehird> See, "just covering the material" isn't the same as conveniently not mentioning any controversy
00:47:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: Fine, it may be a bad line
00:47:14 <ehird> Remove it then
00:47:19 <mycroftiv> i want it do *more* than just mention the controversy
00:47:26 <ehird> I'm just saying that the reasons you objected to are bad
00:48:13 <mycroftiv> i object to that line because it doesnt provide information and id say its basically misleading - there is other good information in the article, and that section should focus on it - i *agree* there is a huge controversy!
00:48:23 <ehird> right, then :P
00:48:27 <ehird> but that's not really what you said
00:49:01 <mycroftiv> i started out by saying 'lots of people are still scared to say so or seem to think the matter is still unclear'
00:49:41 <mycroftiv> i want the wikipedia article to act to clarify the confusion with good solid sourced information as vetted by a presumably expert community
00:50:22 <mycroftiv> im not expert enough personally to try to clean it up
00:50:56 <ehird> if only experts could edit wikipedia articles, well (a) it'd be citizendium and suck and (b) there'd be less drama but (c) a lot more cocksucking
00:51:05 <ehird> and (d) some more crappage
00:51:19 <ehird> did i mention it'd be rubbish./
00:51:24 <ehird> *without the /
00:51:49 <oerjan> no, only with the /
00:52:11 <FireFly> No, with OR without the /
00:52:13 <mycroftiv> i edit wikipedia frequently, but part of being a good editor is knowing when you arent quite good enough for a given topic
00:54:24 <mycroftiv> i read the wikipedia entropy related articles quite a bit and they are generally solid, but they are mostly written (i presume) by students and arent quite up to the standard of the treatment of the subject in books written by experts, it would be nice to get them there
00:57:02 <mycroftiv> the thing that makes me so angry about wikipedia is all the editors who totally ignore the examples of previous encyclopedias in making up tons of absurd rules
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00:57:25 <mycroftiv> for instance, the music theory essays in the encyclopedia britannica 1912 edition were by donald francis tovey, and are total masterpieces
00:57:46 <ehird> old britannicas suck so much. no ctrl-f!
00:57:49 <mycroftiv> but they would be angrily rejected by tons of current wikipedia editors as 'non-encyclopedic' and 'like a personal essay' etc
00:57:56 <ehird> if someone's HTMLed an old britannica that'd be neat
00:58:12 <mycroftiv> that 1912 britannica actually got folded into wikipedia several years ago
00:58:22 <mycroftiv> it formed the core of a lot of the 'generic info'
00:59:27 <mycroftiv> wait, it was 1911 edition, off by a year
01:00:06 <ehird> yes, but then modified and stufjkflgl;j
01:00:15 <mycroftiv> yeah
01:00:34 <mycroftiv> because the interesting thing is that the 1911 brittanica contradicts a lot of the wikipedia 'rules' that the rule-crazed people love
01:00:51 <mycroftiv> it has a ton of POV essays written by experts in their field, basically
01:01:01 <mycroftiv> such as the Donald Francis Tovey music theory essays i love so much
01:04:04 <mycroftiv> nothing stirs a conversation up like old D.F. Tovey, those emininent British musicologists are so beloved!
01:05:53 <ehird> green s 2 b + 5 o 4 2 9 0 10 one 2 7 9 0 4
01:16:11 <oerjan> blue 2 a m 4 - 6 t 3 1 19 x l
01:18:49 <ehird> you don't understand the ((((kkkkkkkkkk semantic
01:19:12 <oerjan> kkkkkould be
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02:06:44 <Sgeo> Would it be wrong for me to make an esolang based on a scripting language for something that exists?
02:09:52 <ehird> Would it kill you to stop asking stupid questions?
02:13:15 <oerjan> Would it be too much to ask for a bit of if the which is?
02:16:33 <ehird> Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
02:16:51 <oerjan> Yes, definitely.
02:17:14 <oerjan> Several times, in fact.
02:18:04 <oerjan> On the other hand, if that would have the requested before that then if the whole question very much.
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03:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: You know how you said file info dialogs use binary storage prefixes?
03:14:03 <ehird> OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard uses metric now
03:20:52 <bsmntbombdood_> laaaaaaaaaaame
03:29:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities.
03:29:29 <ehird> The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes.
03:29:48 <bsmntbombdood_> disk drive total capacities?
03:29:53 <ehird> "200GB" drive
03:29:55 <bsmntbombdood_> only by sleazy marketers
03:29:58 <ehird> no
03:30:00 <ehird> by all disk companies
03:30:08 <ehird> and how is it sleazy marketing? see all my other examples
03:30:36 <ehird> Besides, 2^30 is really arbitrary; the "binary thousand" is just the power of 2 closest to the decimal number 1000
03:30:43 <ehird> as well as all the other similar numbers
03:31:39 <bsmntbombdood_> how many bits does it take to address 4 gigabytes?
03:31:58 <ehird> [03:29] ehird: bsmntbombdood_: 10^9 is used for CPU frequencies, network speeds, wireless bands and disk drive total capacities.
03:31:58 <ehird> [03:29] ehird: The only things that it isn't used for is RAM and, now only for some OSs, individual file sizes.
03:32:18 <ehird> (As well as, you know, everything outside of computation)
03:32:31 <ehird> *computing; computation is a thing computers do
03:32:37 <bsmntbombdood_> you just said that
03:32:44 <ehird> Yes, Idid.
03:32:46 <ehird> *I did
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14:34:34 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right?
14:37:26 <oklopol> i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference
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15:21:04 <asiekierka> I should get to work on my Base 5 esolang
15:22:28 <oklopol> base 5 esolang?
15:23:00 <asiekierka> an esolang
15:23:05 <asiekierka> with numbers stored in base 5
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15:26:11 <asiekierka> 9 kinds of commands
15:26:19 <asiekierka> 15 commands total
15:27:24 <asiekierka> actually 16 now
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15:31:27 <asiekierka> This should output "Hello World!"
15:31:28 <asiekierka> @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O<<<223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O
15:32:32 <asiekierka> http://pastebin.com/d551db7b7
15:32:50 <asiekierka> yes, this is a dynamic cell memory
15:32:55 <asiekierka> that wraps around
15:32:59 <asiekierka> oh wait
15:33:02 <asiekierka> if it wraps around
15:33:05 <asiekierka> I can see an improvment
15:33:11 <asiekierka> @242O@>104O+++++++dOO+++O@>>211O>223O>O+++O>O--------O>+O
15:33:15 <asiekierka> 2 bytes smaller
15:33:24 <oklopol> what's dynamic cell memory
15:33:28 <asiekierka> basically
15:33:32 <asiekierka> a cell memory of a dynamic size
15:33:35 <asiekierka> :P
15:33:43 <oklopol> right
15:33:44 <asiekierka> you can add/remove number cells
15:33:55 <asiekierka> what do you think about it
15:34:02 <oklopol> so you extend it explicitly
15:34:14 <asiekierka> yes
15:34:19 <asiekierka> you can also duplicate numbers
15:34:21 <oklopol> infinitely extending + wraps around don't mix otherwise, so i was confused
15:34:34 <asiekierka> well it doesn't extend infinitely
15:34:39 <asiekierka> but allows for infinite memory in theory
15:34:42 <asiekierka> but not in practice
15:34:59 <asiekierka> it should be compatible with BF
15:35:07 <asiekierka> if you just do @ a whole load of times
15:35:12 <asiekierka> +,-,<,> work as normal
15:35:19 <asiekierka> . == O
15:35:19 <asiekierka> , == i
15:35:24 <oklopol> profound
15:35:26 <asiekierka> [...] == (...)
15:35:30 <asiekierka> so it is turing-complete
15:35:34 <asiekierka> yay
15:35:40 <asiekierka> I am calling it Bafie
15:35:56 <asiekierka> BAse FIve
15:35:57 <oklopol> "whole load of times"?
15:36:05 <asiekierka> however many cells the app needs
15:36:16 <asiekierka> you could just do a
15:36:23 <oklopol> hmm
15:36:23 <asiekierka> @444(@-)
15:36:29 <asiekierka> wait
15:36:33 <asiekierka> @444(@-)-
15:36:39 <oklopol> hehe
15:36:41 <asiekierka> to generate 125 empty cells
15:36:45 <asiekierka> er, no
15:36:49 <asiekierka> @444(@-)(-)
15:36:51 <asiekierka> er, wait
15:36:53 <asiekierka> you don't need the (-)
15:36:57 <asiekierka> so @444(@-)
15:36:59 <oklopol> so that proves it's tc, but the proof requires a superturing compiler
15:37:03 <asiekierka> yes
15:37:12 <asiekierka> well
15:37:17 <asiekierka> the proof requires infinite memory :P
15:37:22 <asiekierka> but it allows for it
15:37:26 <oklopol> err
15:37:26 <asiekierka> as long as the computer has infinite memory
15:37:46 <oklopol> proof don't require memory
15:38:04 <asiekierka> also
15:38:07 <asiekierka> what IS a superturing compiler
15:38:09 <oklopol> *proofs
15:38:18 <oklopol> the compiler needs to know when the program halts
15:38:28 <asiekierka> well for BF compatibility
15:38:33 <oklopol> but, if it can do that, then you can compile all halting programs to your language
15:38:40 <asiekierka> well
15:38:41 <asiekierka> it can
15:38:57 <asiekierka> well, yeah
15:39:03 <asiekierka> wait
15:39:16 <asiekierka> you mean the BF->Bafie compiler?
15:39:17 <oklopol> but, because all programs either halt or not, that does prove all bf programs that halt can be compiled to your language, there's just no algorithm to do it.
15:39:35 <oklopol> i mean... that doesn't prove such an algo exists, naturally one does
15:39:36 <asiekierka> well
15:39:42 <oklopol> because you can extend by need
15:39:46 <asiekierka> well
15:39:57 <asiekierka> thats the main problem
15:40:03 <asiekierka> counting how many cells did a program use
15:40:11 <asiekierka> That'd require to interpret the whole program
15:40:13 <asiekierka> :/
15:40:14 <oklopol> this is a very subtle and interesting issue, don't try to understand it
15:40:21 <asiekierka> yeah
15:40:28 <asiekierka> so i should just know what of it
15:40:33 <asiekierka> is my language TC? :P
15:40:45 <oklopol> i think it is, but you need to show how to actually extend the tape
15:40:51 <oklopol> because you need to do it every time you go out of tape
15:40:58 <asiekierka> If you go out of tape
15:40:59 <oklopol> otherwise there's no way to actually do the compilation
15:41:02 <asiekierka> you go back to the first entry
15:41:07 <oklopol> think about +[>+]
15:41:18 <asiekierka> well
15:41:21 <oklopol> non-halting programs can't be compiled the way you said
15:41:21 <asiekierka> I could add a new command
15:41:29 <oklopol> asiekierka: but how do you know you're out of the tape?
15:41:34 <asiekierka> to add a cell ONLY if it's the last cell
15:41:36 <oklopol> you just wrap around if you go out of it
15:41:55 <asiekierka> that's the problem
15:42:05 <asiekierka> the problem of Bafie
15:42:25 <asiekierka> well it was designed to wrap the tape around AND make it of definable size
15:42:31 <oklopol> that would be the boring way out of it
15:42:42 <asiekierka> well
15:42:55 <asiekierka> the design means that it can't create a new cell if you're out of the tape either
15:42:59 <asiekierka> It would need to alert you somehow
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15:43:05 <asiekierka> Also i don't want it to stop execution
15:43:16 <oklopol> the "more interesting" one (or maybe just more tedious) is to keep the index you're at, currently, and the size of memory allocated, always with you
15:43:28 <asiekierka> well
15:43:41 <asiekierka> The interpreter can by default only read values 000-444 (base 5)
15:43:44 <asiekierka> or 0-124 (base 10)
15:43:53 <oklopol> by having the tape contain actual data in every second cell, and in the other cells, carry around these indices
15:44:01 <asiekierka> hmm
15:44:16 <asiekierka> well
15:44:25 <asiekierka> I could add a command to output the index of the cell you're at into the current cell
15:44:28 <asiekierka> but that's useless :P
15:44:37 <asiekierka> also damages data
15:45:02 <oklopol> you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P
15:45:03 <FireFly> asiekierka, reminds me of my RinGy language
15:45:25 <asiekierka> actually no
15:45:29 <asiekierka> i will try to find it out
15:45:35 <oklopol> go ahead
15:45:37 <FireFly> Memory is originally finite, _ inserts a blank memory set to 0
15:45:38 <asiekierka> Well, BF doesn't tell you about it either
15:45:46 <asiekierka> where you are
15:45:52 <asiekierka> and the size is also undefined
15:45:56 <asiekierka> defined by the interpreter
15:46:03 <oklopol> i'm assuming bf with infinite memory
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15:46:18 <asiekierka> oh THAT
15:46:18 <oklopol> otherwise bf is a trivial language
15:46:24 <oklopol> i mean, mathematically
15:46:37 <oklopol> you can just list all programs and their outputs, and run them in constant time :)
15:46:38 <asiekierka> I could have an extra command
15:46:59 <oklopol> i've turned into a mathematician :<
15:47:04 <asiekierka> <...> - if the (index%125) doesnt match up with the current register's value, do ...
15:47:08 <oklopol> well, gotta go read number theory ->
15:47:15 <asiekierka> and not help me? :(
15:48:25 <asiekierka> also, firefly
15:48:28 <asiekierka> was RinGy TC?
15:49:15 <FireFly> I don't know yet
15:49:25 <FireFly> It has some other stuff making it harder to determine, though
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16:44:14 <Deewiant> http://apina.biz/19780.png
16:46:12 <oklofok> well, in two years, it'll be 2012, and i'll be living in the basement waiting for the end of the world
16:46:24 <oklofok> give or take a year
16:46:27 <Slereah> That dude is NEET
16:46:29 <oklofok> actually
16:46:43 <oklofok> i'll be 23 in *three years*, so don't give any years
16:46:49 <oklofok> so, second time i forget my age
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17:29:11 <Libertine> HIiiiii
17:29:17 <ais523> hi
17:29:30 <Libertine> Oh this is an esoteric programming channel
17:29:34 <ais523> yes
17:29:46 <Libertine> I was looking for other esoteric stuff
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17:30:10 <ais523> Libertine: sorry, I'm not entirely sure where to find it; freenode is probably the wrong network, though
17:30:56 <asiekierka> you mean like esoteric esoteric programming?
17:30:59 <asiekierka> As in
17:31:07 <asiekierka> esoteric programming in esoteric programming languages
17:31:24 <ais523> asiekierka: no, it's someone who's come to the wrong channel by mistake; 'esoteric' has more than one meaning
17:31:25 <Slereah> Like an eso interpreter?
17:31:29 <asiekierka> yes
17:33:21 <Libertine> So I heard brainfuck is an esoteric language, anyone here use it?
17:33:26 <ais523> yes, lots of us
17:33:29 <ais523> some of the bots, too
17:33:34 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
17:33:34 <fungot> Hello, world!
17:33:51 <ais523> mostly, though, we aren't mad enough to try to use it for anything serious
17:33:55 <Libertine> It looks totally incomprehensible
17:34:00 <asiekierka> some people are
17:34:04 <asiekierka> see the decss decoder
17:34:16 <ais523> well, many esolangs are designed to look difficult
17:35:00 <Libertine> hmm.. I see
17:35:22 <ais523> and some actually are more difficult than others
17:35:47 <Libertine> I have tried to program in Java (my first programming language) but I find it difficult
17:35:51 <Libertine> Why might this be? Am I stupid?
17:36:05 <ais523> no, it's because Java is really obnoxious
17:36:37 <oklofok> for a beginner, java is a horrible choice, imo
17:36:40 <Libertine> I hear this from many experienced programmers; java is awful etc. Not a good first language.
17:36:59 <Libertine> Which languages are considered good for a beginner?
17:37:11 <oklofok> i would consider python
17:37:12 <ais523> oklofok: let's say, I know someone else whose first language was Java, and they ended up awful at programming
17:37:32 <ais523> and yes, I was thinking Python too; although there's lots I don't like about it, it's OK for a beginner
17:37:50 <ais523> BASIC's good if you don't want to be demoralized, although it's less good for actual learning
17:38:12 <oklofok> with java, you never start "thinking in programming", because you're first instinct when you see a problem isn't to quickly code it up, or at least quickly think of a solution in your head
17:38:16 <oklofok> because it's a verbose language
17:38:22 <pikhq> Python is a all-around good language. Flawed, but it doesn't do anything actually *horribly*.
17:38:41 <oklofok> *your first
17:38:44 <ais523> another advantage of Python is that it is at least easy to read
17:40:29 <Libertine> I enjoy programming in Java at times, but it seems like a lot of effort to to accomplish minor tasks. I have two large half-read Java books gathering dust, so should I start learning Python to get back some of my motivation? Thanks for answering my questions oklofok, ais523, pikhq
17:40:44 <AnMaster> hi
17:40:49 <ais523> hi
17:41:34 <pikhq> Definitely learn Python. One of the things it definitely gets right is that it's easy to do minor tasks in it.
17:41:44 <oklofok> lot of effort for minor tasks, and most of all lots of effort to build a good abstraction, although that's true for most OO, i guess.
17:41:55 <pikhq> (this feature makes any language much easier to learn)
17:45:49 <Libertine> Thank you! :)
17:47:21 <AnMaster> where does sudo store the needed info for the "don't have to enter password again if you recently used sudo in the same terminal" thingy
17:47:35 <AnMaster> (for some reason it doesn't work between different terminal tabs for me *shrug*)
17:47:58 <ais523> AnMaster: /var/run/sudo
17:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm empty but ok
17:48:42 <ais523> the GUI versions of sudo tend to use daemons, to avoid writing anything to disk
17:49:07 <AnMaster> ok that directory contains a directory with the user name, which contains three empty files: 0 1 unknown
17:49:08 <AnMaster> huh
17:50:15 <ais523> maybe the timestamps of the files are relevant?
17:51:14 <AnMaster> hm maybe
17:51:20 <AnMaster> seems like a weird way to store it
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18:02:35 <AnMaster> I don't understand screen dimming timeout on my laptop...
18:03:00 <AnMaster> sometimes it dims after about a minute inactive, sometimes it is about half a minute, sometimes closer to 5 minutes
18:03:09 <AnMaster> all during the same session... and on AC...
18:31:49 <asiekierka> I wish there was an esolang that can do 3d rendering
18:32:15 <ais523> asiekierka: Deltaplex
18:39:31 <asiekierka> Is there an esolang that never says/returns the truth?
18:39:50 <oklofok> what do you mean
18:40:54 <asiekierka> for example
18:40:55 <asiekierka> for 2+2
18:40:57 <asiekierka> it returns any value
18:40:58 <asiekierka> but not 4
18:41:10 <asiekierka> if you want it to print "Hello, world!"
18:41:15 <asiekierka> it saying anything EXCEPT "Hello, world!"
18:41:20 <asiekierka> prints*
18:41:27 <asiekierka> If you want it to lie
18:41:30 <asiekierka> the program ends
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19:42:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what about sadol
19:42:35 <AnMaster> iirc there is a raytracer in it?
19:42:48 <ais523> AnMaster: Deltaplex has primitives for 3D graphics, though
19:42:51 <ais523> so likely is better for it
19:42:55 <AnMaster> ais523, using opengl?
19:43:27 <ais523> AnMaster: I think so
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19:43:38 <AnMaster> asiekierka, anyway, all tc languages can render 3D graphics, for example I could imagine a bf render.bf < input > output
19:43:41 <AnMaster> or similar
19:43:46 <AnMaster> that outputs a ppm or even png
19:43:53 <AnMaster> though png seems overkill
19:44:10 <AnMaster> and iirc ppm is a trivially simple format
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20:01:23 <fizzie> It's just ascii-texty; Windows bitmaps aren't much more complicated. PNG would probably be a lot more boring to write, lots of header bytes there. (But you can put uncompressed blocks into a deflate/zlib stream.)
20:06:05 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
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20:56:55 <oerjan> 06:34:34 <oklopol> oerjan: you don't have a blog though, right?
20:56:55 <oerjan> 06:37:26 <oklopol> i don't recall you explicitly pointing out that difference
20:56:59 <oerjan> no, and context?
20:57:57 <oklofok> as always, context is left as an exercise
20:58:35 <oklofok> except i've decided to try to do that less
20:58:39 <oklofok> so umm xkcd
21:11:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, I time travelled here from yesterday
21:13:14 <oerjan> oklofok: i can find nothing i said that provides context for those two lines
21:13:44 <oerjan> (in the last day or so)
21:13:45 <oklofok> the xkcd about your life
21:13:53 <oklofok> oh it was much further than that
21:14:01 <oklofok> my brain isn't all that linear
21:14:15 <oerjan> hm might be easier to look up the xkcd
21:14:36 <oklofok> not sure it was linked, you said they made an xkcd about your life
21:14:51 <oklofok> the one where the dude knows french
21:15:54 <oerjan> i vaguely recall making a joke about it, lessee...
21:16:27 -!- ehird has joined.
21:16:36 <oerjan> ah, http://xkcd.com/621/
21:17:09 <oerjan> i don't think we ever got past present and perfect tenses, anyway
21:17:45 <oerjan> (past present not a phrase, there)
21:17:49 <oklofok> also you don't share your dreams
21:19:56 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (past present not a phrase, there) <-- damn.. it sounded so logical
21:19:59 <AnMaster> for once
21:20:09 <oerjan> hm today i had this dream where i was in my childhood home (i think) and it suddenly dropped over a cliff
21:20:13 <AnMaster> in fact it sounded perfect
21:20:38 <AnMaster> (sorry for that oerjan. credit should go to you probably)
21:20:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: i didn't notice it until you pointed it out
21:20:58 <ehird> 07:45:02 <oklopol> you should probably just leave this issue for now, and say "it's probably TC" :P
21:21:03 <ehird> a fixed-size tape is obviously not TC
21:21:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, I think I copied a joke you made some years ago
21:21:12 <oklofok> you misunderstood the issue, ehird
21:21:12 <ehird> even if program-defined
21:21:29 <oklofok> any halting program is compilable to it
21:21:35 <ehird> i don't think I did, I think if you think I did you're reading too much intellectualism into asie's lang
21:21:39 <ehird> oklofok: ofc
21:21:56 <oklofok> that was all i said, the tc part was about indexing being possible, but hard to explain how to do it rigorously
21:21:59 <ehird> oklofok: ,[>] is trivially not
21:22:12 <oklofok> ,[>] ?
21:22:16 <ehird> BF
21:22:32 <oklofok> what about it, and do you mean ,[>,]
21:23:04 <oerjan> it was like the house was balancing on the edge, and just tipped. except i have to deduce that since i dreamed from the inside of the house
21:23:06 <ehird> you can't give ,[>] a fixed tape size, yet it sometimes halts
21:23:17 <ehird> well, i guess ,negate[>] would be more interesting
21:23:24 <oklofok> that's outside my scope
21:23:34 <oklofok> ,[>] always halts
21:24:00 <ehird> oklofok: um
21:24:04 <ehird> i think you will find it does not
21:24:22 <FireFly> It does?
21:24:22 <oklofok> oh
21:24:32 <FireFly> Why wouldn't it? :\
21:24:35 <oklofok> i must be dreaming then
21:25:26 <ehird> oh
21:25:26 <ehird> err
21:25:30 <ehird> i'm crazy :)
21:25:37 <oerjan> and then it continued moving, i think, but then i woke up so i don't know where it was moving to. not that i was dreaming the landscape clearly anyhow
21:25:39 <oklofok> ,[>+] is what you meant
21:25:43 <oklofok> ?
21:25:56 <ehird> no, I meant ,{go > input times} but that involves so much code and dkjdkflhggk
21:26:09 <oklofok> i... see
21:26:16 <oklofok> that always halts
21:26:25 <ehird> yes yes
21:26:26 <ehird> i dsfdfkgj
21:26:30 <ehird> look, I slept at 5:30am after getting severely tired at 8pm, then woke up, lay in bed for hours and finally got up at 8pm, absolutely tired
21:26:36 <ehird> i am hardly to be expected to be coherent
21:27:03 <oklofok> i'm not judging your incoherence, just stating facts and rubbing my nose
21:27:36 <ehird> i had to go check between was a real word just now
21:27:54 <oklofok> :)
21:28:13 <oerjan> also, last time i drank beer was after christmas, when the landlady came down with some leftovers from the party
21:28:21 <oerjan> or so i think
21:28:34 <ehird> 08:44:14 <Deewiant> http://apina.biz/19780.png
21:28:35 <ehird> i'm like a blend between 15/18 (my curtains darken a lot and cover the whole window), 10 (because those curtains are quite often, gasp, open) and 23 (because I have a modern computer)
21:28:37 <oerjan> now i only need to make a blog with apologies and i should be all set
21:28:54 <oklofok> oerjan: do it, i'd love to read your blog
21:29:11 <oerjan> oklofok: even if it _only_ contains apologies for not posting more?
21:29:15 <oklofok> i wish interesting people wrote blogs :\
21:30:03 <ehird> 09:29:46 <Libertine> I was looking for other esoteric stuff
21:30:04 <ehird> I wonder how anyone who can take such other esoteric stuff seriously knows what brainfuck is
21:30:08 <oklofok> oerjan: well naturally i'd read it
21:30:10 <ehird> well, rather, knows java more
21:30:20 <ehird> admittedly it doesn't require much intelligence to fail at coding java, but :)
21:31:13 <ehird> 10:02:35 <AnMaster> I don't understand screen dimming timeout on my laptop...
21:31:14 <ehird> 10:03:00 <AnMaster> sometimes it dims after about a minute inactive, sometimes it is about half a minute, sometimes closer to 5 minutes
21:31:14 <ehird> 10:03:09 <AnMaster> all during the same session... and on AC...
21:31:14 <ehird> similar to http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/08/20/9876113.aspx?
21:33:18 <oerjan> oklofok: the basic problem is my life is boring so nothing to write about, i have no strong opinions (except that it's horribly wrong to have strong opinions), and i don't particularly care to write about things that people can read elsewhere
21:33:31 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... maybe.
21:33:50 <oklofok> oerjan: you could write about the little things, record your movements
21:33:57 <ehird> seems like a good feature to me
21:34:01 <oklofok> i'd love that, maybe you could set up like a video camera?
21:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, definitely wasn't a media player or such though
21:34:09 <ehird> oerjan: write about how much you hate strong opinions
21:34:14 <ehird> AnMaster: err, read the post properly
21:34:15 <AnMaster> ehird, but possibly something like the other alternative
21:34:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ... please wait for me to finish my comment first ;P
21:34:53 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, read the post
21:34:54 <ehird> the OS does it
21:34:57 <oerjan> ehird: hm a comedy blog... maybe
21:34:57 <ehird> regardless of program
21:34:58 <ehird> in WIndows
21:35:01 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> ehird, but possibly something like the other alternative
21:35:03 <AnMaster> yes
21:35:05 <AnMaster> the OS
21:35:06 <AnMaster> duh
21:35:10 <AnMaster> read what I said properly
21:35:11 <AnMaster> as well
21:35:15 <ehird> but then the former wasn't even mentioned
21:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it was
21:35:21 <ehird> so talking about it to me is fucking stupid
21:35:24 <AnMaster> read the post properly
21:35:33 <AnMaster> "First of all, there are ways for programs to block the screen saver entirely. Calling SetThreadExecutionState(ES_DISPLAY_REQUIRED), is how a program says, "Even though there is no mouse or keyboard input, the screen is indeed in use, so don't blank it or start the screen saver." Media playback programs use this so the screen saver doesn't kick in while you're watching a movie on your DVD, and present
21:35:33 <AnMaster> ation programs use it so the screen saver doesn't start in the middle of your multi-million-dollar proposal. "
21:35:34 <AnMaster> well
21:35:38 <AnMaster> not mentioned I guess
21:35:52 <AnMaster> clearly a figment of imagination that quote
21:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well?
21:36:34 <ehird> that
21:36:36 <ehird> is to disable it
21:36:37 <ehird> not delay it
21:36:39 <ehird> so not applicable
21:37:02 <FireFly> Comment says it's to delay it
21:37:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, it wasn't temp disabled due to some such app later exiting
21:37:12 <ehird> k
21:41:22 <ehird> meow
21:41:26 <oerjan> <oklopol> so that proves it's tc, but the proof requires a superturing compiler
21:41:52 <oerjan> the definition of tc requires that the reduction is done by something subturing, halting.
21:43:04 <ehird> OH SNAPPETH
21:43:10 <ehird> MATHEMATICS IN YOUR FACE OKLOPOL
21:43:13 <ehird> :P
21:44:10 <oerjan> snappethicious
21:45:06 <oklofok> right
21:47:11 <oklofok> really i just tried to get asiekierka to understand the whole indexing issue, compilation vs interpretation time extending
21:47:17 <oklofok> "indexing issue"
21:47:34 <oklofok> whatever
21:49:10 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure i've seen that elsewhere, having to extend dynamically, carrying a bignum on the bf tape
21:49:37 <oklofok> i guess you have to solve it even in the basic infinite tape with bignums problem
21:49:52 <oklofok> or a similar problem at least
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21:55:53 <ehird> doo dooo dooo doo dooooooooooooooooooo
21:56:07 <oklofok> never
21:56:08 <ehird> DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:56:21 <ehird> do the doo doo do, do the do the do the do the doo doo
21:56:37 <ehird> do doo doo do the do doo doo, do doo doo doo doo dooooooo!!!!!!!!
21:57:22 <Deewiant> ??
21:57:35 <ehird> yeah!
21:57:37 <ehird> 'sa song
21:57:39 <ehird> of songness
21:57:41 <ehird> songolisity
21:57:50 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:58:36 <ehird> vulgar #esoteric, of vulgarities hitherto, giving vulgarities within
22:01:02 <ehird> "Assets"
22:01:35 <ehird> vagrant vagabonds are vulgar in #esoteric
22:02:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:03:35 <ehird> hi Sgeo
22:03:38 <ehird> oegS ih
22:03:50 <Sgeo> Hi
22:04:10 <oerjan> variously vagrant vagabonds
22:05:11 <ehird> variously vagrant vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:05:20 -!- puzzlet__ has joined.
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22:08:08 <ehird> Vanguard! Variously vagrant vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:08:43 <ehird> Variously vagrant vanguard vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:08:51 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:12:10 <oerjan> vampire vagabonds!
22:13:23 <ehird> Vanguard! Variously vagrant vampire vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:13:26 <ehird> oops
22:13:37 <ehird> Variously vagrant vanguard vampire vagabonds' vocation vulgar
22:14:43 <oerjan> vulgarly vomiting voracious vampire vagabonds
22:14:44 <ehird> Oh my god
22:14:45 <ehird> http://perl6.org/
22:14:49 <ehird> The colours... the
22:14:51 <ehird> What the fuck
22:14:53 <ehird> A butterfly on LSD
22:14:56 <ehird> Is talking to me
22:15:00 <ehird> WHY IS THIS THE PERL 6 SITE
22:15:14 <ehird> Ooh, nice "download" link, didya make that with johnny's first glossy button maker?
22:15:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAGH MY EYES
22:15:51 <oerjan> "I think there's a tendency to
22:15:51 <oerjan> go way too abstract in most of these proposals. I want something
22:15:52 <oerjan> with gut appeal on the order of Tux."
22:16:07 <ehird> I think penguins are tastier than butterflies
22:16:11 <ehird> Just guessing though
22:16:23 <oerjan> so larry wall confused gut appeal with gut wrenching?
22:17:11 <Sgeo> The only part of that site that's annoying to me is "spokesbug"
22:17:29 <Sgeo> Honestly, it might not be an entirely professional looking site, but does it need to be?
22:17:39 <ehird> Sgeo
22:17:41 <ehird> please
22:17:43 <ehird> please
22:17:45 <ehird> stop talking
22:18:13 <ehird> or I'll have to conclude you're both colourblind and a three year year old who wants to be addressed as such
22:18:56 <oerjan> oh well it's certainly cheerful at least
22:19:13 <ehird> cheerful like vomit that makes the shape of a smile
22:20:06 <oerjan> "WARNING: Image may be offensive to cynics and other people who think they have taste"
22:20:16 <ehird> who said that
22:20:20 <oerjan> i did
22:20:23 <Sgeo> It's not as bad as http://www.reddit.com/r/hurts_my_eyes
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22:20:28 <ehird> you're being sarcastic right oerjan
22:20:32 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:20:44 <oerjan> yes, except i'm not quite sure against who
22:21:05 <oerjan> probably both sides
22:21:44 <oerjan> consider it part of my recently declared jihad against strong opinions
22:22:51 <ehird> i think strong opinions are quite alright
22:23:16 <FireFly> "submitted 8 månader ago by"
22:23:18 <FireFly> Nice english
22:23:32 <ehird> FireFly: incomplete translation
22:23:40 <ehird> change to english
22:23:52 <FireFly> Not with that eye-bleading version
22:24:01 <ehird> wait, you can read the text? :P
22:24:10 <FireFly> Part of it
22:24:12 <FireFly> :p
22:24:48 <ehird> i'm made of seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:24:52 <ehird> seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:24:54 <ehird> beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepets
22:24:56 <ehird> seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecrets
22:25:15 <ehird> BUUUUUUT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND
22:25:20 <ehird> fltop
22:25:22 <ehird> ftlop
22:27:22 <oklofok> the perl site is nice
22:27:34 <ehird> oklofok: yes, but you have that IE stylesheeter
22:28:11 <ehird> oklofok: there's an awful LSD bug to the right, and the boxes are in colours alternately 3-year-oldesque and puke-looking
22:28:24 <ehird> and they have shadows.
22:28:30 <ehird> and borders.
22:29:06 <oklofok> hmm, right, i mostly liked the color scheme
22:29:08 <oklofok> ;D
22:29:34 <oklofok> the bug isn't that bad when the rest is black and white imo, although it could be a little less gay
22:29:35 <ehird> oklofok: the white on black colour scheme? :P
22:29:41 <ehird> don't forget the font!
22:29:50 <ehird> the wonderfully monospaced font.
22:34:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Your opinion on strong opinions seems to be ... rather strong.
22:35:11 <ehird> GregorR: YOU GOT THE JOKE!
22:35:25 <GregorR> AND THEN I ANNOUNCED IT.
22:35:28 * ehird hands GregorR a Certificate of Having Got the Joke
22:35:35 <ehird> You're special.
22:35:39 <GregorR> Can I have a certificate of having announced the joke?
22:35:59 * ehird hands GregorR a Forged Certificate of Having Announced the Joke
22:36:28 * GregorR looks at it carefully through a monocle.
22:36:47 <ehird> GregorR: It has a EURion constellation on it.
22:36:51 <ehird> I thought they were for certificates.
22:36:54 <ehird> Turns out they're for money.
22:36:59 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's illegal.
22:39:05 <fizzie> Someone at work suggested embedding that thing in a figure in some published scientific paper. Would be a nice surprise for someone trying to run it through a copier.
22:39:12 <ehird> :D
22:39:24 <ehird> "Notes on the EURion Constellation"
22:39:28 <AnMaster> <FireFly> "submitted 8 månader ago by" <ehird> wait, you can read the text? :P <-- that? yes
22:39:31 <ehird> "right, I'll give this to the prof"
22:39:37 <AnMaster> ;P
22:39:38 <ehird> "put it in and..."
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22:39:40 <ehird> BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
22:39:43 <ehird> "fuck :("
22:39:49 <ehird> hmm wait, how did he print it in the first place
22:39:59 <ehird> damn, that would have been a more realistic joke
22:40:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Someone at work suggested embedding that thing in a figure in some published scientific paper. Would be a nice surprise for someone trying to run it through a copier. <-- what are you talking about?
22:41:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurion_constellation
22:44:35 <AnMaster> hm
22:45:19 <fizzie> From what I've read, it's mainly really only color photocopiers that use it, and the image-processing-software currency-detect-o-tron does something else.
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22:45:50 <ehird> I scanned and printed out a £5 note with the scanner/printer here
22:45:53 <ehird> I GUESS IT'S TOO DUMB
22:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that note has the pattern?
22:46:24 <ehird> British pound (sterling)Bank of England £5 (2002), £10 (2000), £20 (1999 & 2007)£50 (not yet upgraded)
22:46:28 <ehird> Yes
22:46:31 <AnMaster> mhm
22:46:46 <ehird> Incidentally, one side of our coins have a new design: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a8/New_British_Coinage_2008.jpg
22:46:52 <ehird> I think it's pretty.
22:47:09 <ehird> I mean, it looks like they're all misprinted!
22:47:13 <ehird> That's cool.
22:47:25 <AnMaster> XD
22:47:40 <ehird> It totally does look like their printer was misaligned. :)
22:47:49 <AnMaster> except the text though
22:47:51 <AnMaster> but yeah
22:48:12 <AnMaster> ehird, 7 sided coins?
22:48:13 <AnMaster> wth
22:48:20 <ehird> Eh?
22:48:29 <AnMaster> "fifty pence"
22:48:33 <AnMaster> is seven-sided
22:48:36 <AnMaster> not round
22:48:39 <AnMaster> that's unusual
22:48:46 <ehird> Nor is ten pence
22:48:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed
22:49:02 <ehird> Old coins: http://z.about.com/d/studenttravel/1/0/j/B/all-british-coins.jpg
22:49:05 <AnMaster> err
22:49:06 <AnMaster> wait
22:49:09 <AnMaster> ten pence is
22:49:14 <AnMaster> twenty pence isn't
22:49:15 <ehird> Erm, right
22:49:21 <ehird> Lacks the two-pound, though
22:49:25 <ehird> Which looks AWESOME
22:49:29 <ehird> http://www.1yet.com/uploaded_images/TwoPoundCoinBack%5B1%5D-762186.jpg
22:49:37 <ehird> They're separate coins: http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/2Pound_6300J2.jpg
22:49:43 <ehird> It's like you put a gold ring around a one pound coin
22:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I find non-round coins unusual. Ok?
22:50:02 <fizzie> Wikipedia sourcelessly says "an equilaterally curved heptagon to aid identification"; I like the irregular shape.
22:50:06 <ehird> You're just a stupid dirty Swede.
22:50:14 <AnMaster> wait what
22:50:20 <Pthing> eh
22:50:21 <AnMaster> you can take the coin apart?
22:50:24 <ehird> Yes
22:50:26 <Pthing> the 2 point coin doesn't come apart
22:50:32 <ehird> http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/2Pound_6300J2.jpg
22:50:33 <Pthing> not easily
22:50:38 <ehird> Yes, but uneasily :P
22:50:42 <Pthing> well yeah sure
22:50:50 <Pthing> that's a general property of metal
22:50:53 <AnMaster> right
22:50:54 <ehird> A more real sort of picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/4/47/20080404153939!British_2_pound_coin_regular_obverse.JPG
22:51:30 <ehird> I want a decagon coin.
22:51:33 <ehird> (Or more)
22:51:36 <AnMaster> observe the obverse!
22:52:20 <oerjan> huh there's a spam page on the wiki which is an edit to an old spam that was missed...
22:52:25 <ehird> :D
22:52:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I want an n sided coin where lim n->inf
22:52:40 <ehird> AnMaster: You realise you just said "I want a circular coin".
22:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, of course
22:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, that was my whole point XD
22:53:01 <ehird> Yes, well, it wasn't funny so I wasn't sure
22:53:19 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't meant to be funny, was meant to be dry and boring
22:53:21 <AnMaster> hope it was
22:53:36 <ehird> Yes, but you didn't have to try for that; you always are.
22:53:40 <fizzie> http://www.joelscoins.com/oops.htm "unusual coins"; but the stranger ones aren't in regular use.
22:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, thanks
22:54:37 <oerjan> wait that russian joke was actually a bit funny, so maybe not really spam
22:54:41 <ehird> fizzie: Somalian coins? Hmm, right, I guess it does have some sort of market
22:54:44 <ehird> despite being anarchic
22:54:49 <oerjan> except how would it get on that page otherwise
22:54:51 <ehird> I'm silly, incidentally
22:55:09 <ehird> which joke
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22:56:01 <fizzie> There's also a geocities page for someone who's trying to collect different shapes.
22:56:07 <ehird> oerjan: wuzzajoke
22:56:18 <ehird> fioh my god those three-sided coins
22:56:21 <ehird> best coin shape ever
22:56:24 <ehird> er
22:56:25 <ehird> fizzie:
22:56:57 <ehird> xD @ somali republic guitar coins
22:57:13 <oerjan> ehird: that spam page i mentioned, the old spam was a joke in russian
22:57:31 <ehird> oerjan: translation?
22:58:11 <oerjan> google's lousy translation: "The teacher asks Vovochka: - Little Johnny, why do you yesterday did not come to school? - Grandpa burns received ... - Oh! But seriously hurt? - Of course! In the crematorium are not joking."
22:58:30 <ehird> xD that's funny because it isn't
22:59:00 <oerjan> (little Johnny == Vovochka, except they're in different case and google only translates one of them fully to english)
22:59:56 <ehird> http://imgur.com/RX28c.jpg someone submit this to http://xkcd.com/chesscoaster/ :P
23:00:13 <oerjan> (nominative and accusative, not upper and lower)
23:04:47 <AnMaster> it is scary how much of what xkcd suggests is later done in real life
23:04:55 <AnMaster> think what awesome power that is
23:05:13 <ehird> there was a comic about that, except he said it less... stupidly
23:05:22 <ehird> at least i think it was a comic.
23:05:34 <AnMaster> ehird, link
23:05:40 <ehird> also, it's not really awesome power. consider how many readers, some MUST be planning a trip somewhere,
23:05:48 <ehird> with a rollercoaster
23:05:52 <ehird> and it's not that hard to glue a chessboard together
23:06:00 <ehird> so it's like 15 minutes of work total for internet fame
23:06:12 <AnMaster> heh maybe. But what about that wetriffs?
23:06:14 <ehird> not exactly a huge thing to get people to do
23:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, it's not like people have egos to be stroked or anything
23:06:38 <AnMaster> XD
23:06:40 <oerjan> ehird: he added a disclaimer to the flying with counterweight comic
23:06:50 <ehird> oerjan: :D
23:06:54 <ehird> (link?)
23:07:19 <oerjan> http://xkcd.com/620/
23:07:37 <oerjan> or rather that was the hovertext
23:07:57 <ehird> well that's not referencing it
23:08:03 <ehird> that's just a standard joke "don't try this at home"
23:08:11 <ehird> which everyone does
23:08:17 <oerjan> that's still relevant though
23:08:23 <ehird> so's your mom
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23:23:57 <ehird> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!!!
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23:39:36 <AnMaster> night
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23:40:35 <coppro> awesome... local sci-fi station is actually getting the new Stargate series as it comes out, rather than months later
23:43:07 <oerjan> they probably have a time machinr
23:43:15 <ehird> tim machina
23:43:17 <oerjan> *e
23:43:23 <ehird> e machinr?
23:43:53 <oerjan> sjut op yoo
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