00:05:40 <oerjan> ehird: check the talk page, i don't know more than what would be there...
00:05:50 <ehird> doesn't exist iirc
00:06:12 <oerjan> having some discussion on how to categorize things doesn't seem like a bad idea
00:06:49 <oerjan> Esolang talk:Authors certainly exists
00:07:16 <ehird> [on Lisp Machines] "Put everything else on a networked file server - for example using NFS. That's much faster than the local disk."
00:08:43 <oerjan> ehird: incidentally the current consensus was _not_ graue's initial preference
00:09:14 <ehird> I don't really like Graue's administration of the wiki
00:09:45 <oerjan> well currently it's "don't do anything unless someone emails me to tell the wiki's broken" ;D
00:12:10 <oerjan> heck from reading the talk page i'm not sure there _is_ a consensus
00:12:34 <ehird> wow, dmenu is fast
00:13:02 <ehird> it is showing the latest entries, asking for input, in less than a second, when given 57838 lines of items
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00:14:11 <oerjan> oh, it seems all real edits of the Authors page are by graue, indeed
00:14:50 <ehird> maybe we should just ignore his guidelines :)
00:15:22 <oerjan> he did claim to be summarizing the consensus
00:15:55 <oerjan> also, i see nothing wrong with the guidelines
00:16:09 <ehird> that's a technical detail of the wiki
00:16:41 <ais523> it's because links to userpages should be marked
00:16:53 <ais523> it's fine to mark it "ehird" if you link to an encyclopedic page about ehird
00:16:56 <ehird> ais523: "links to userpages should be marked because links to userpages should be marked"
00:17:06 <ehird> Your logic is interestingly circular.
00:17:22 <oerjan> no, your name is Elliott Hird. And if you had enough languages on the wiki we would have created that page.
00:17:22 <ais523> it's to do with things like neutrality
00:17:33 <ais523> people have more leeway in userspace
00:17:51 <ehird> oerjan: my name is not Elliott Hird as far as esolangs go.
00:18:05 <ehird> ais523: the esolang wiki is hardly neutral
00:18:15 <ehird> most pages are written subjectively by the author
00:18:23 <ais523> I know, but in theory other people could edit them, and sometimes do
00:18:28 <ais523> whereas editing other people's userpages is more discouraged
00:18:34 <ehird> so we're basing our policy around theory now?
00:18:58 <oklokok> what's that supposed to mean
00:19:18 <ehird> that we should make policy based on what actually happens
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00:20:18 <oklokok> that doesn't sound like a completely insane thing to want
00:20:49 <ehird> oklokok: whuzzit called
00:20:51 <ehird> also, K is better.
00:21:50 <oklokok> visualization, fractals and J, i took a 5 second glance at ToC, then ordered, i prefer surprise over usefulness
00:22:13 <oerjan> hm this _could_ be a problem. ais523 would be a prime suspect of getting his own article now, but he'd scream loudly if we used his real name in it...
00:22:46 <ehird> oerjan: his name is ais523.
00:23:01 <ehird> oerjan: why does a name have to be Blah Blah? who cares what's on the certificate?
00:23:06 <ehird> your definition of "name" is outdated
00:23:49 <oerjan> the thing is most of the older esolangers from before the wiki are referred to by real name, i think
00:24:05 <ehird> ehird is a real name
00:24:24 <oklokok> tradition is the key to happiness
00:24:43 <ehird> it's rude to call people something other than they consider themselves just because their government thinks so, oerjan.
00:25:48 <ehird> or should I say it like this, Ørjan Johansen?
00:26:07 <oerjan> you are perfectly allowed to.
00:26:27 <ehird> yes, because you only have one name, and consider oerjan an abbreviation for it
00:27:25 <oklokok> i would be terribly annoyed if people called me Ville, not because it's a secret, but because it's not who i am on the internet.
00:27:35 <oklokok> for instance, Ville is finnish
00:28:02 <oklokok> for all intents and purposes i'm nowhereish.
00:28:20 <ehird> oerjan: for consistency, I assume you refer to transgender people who haven't registered their change of gender with the government depending on whether they have a penis or not?
00:28:27 * oerjan has a strong "get off my lawn" feeling now :D
00:28:33 <ehird> after all, it's not their real gender; their government says so
00:28:40 <ehird> they just made it up
00:29:00 <oerjan> BORING DISCUSSION IS BORING
00:29:02 <ehird> that's one convincing counterargument
00:29:14 <ehird> oerjan: no, it's relevant to my position on the wiki policy
00:29:23 <pikhq> My name is Josiah "pikhq" Worcester, as far as the Internet's concerned.
00:30:59 <oerjan> whatever. however "ehird" and "User:ehird" would still be two different articles, one a user page and the other community-edited.
00:31:05 <GregorR> My name is Gregor "Gregor" Richards, as far as the Internet is concerned.
00:31:24 <ehird> oerjan: but user pages and article pages often have the exact same authors, subjectivity level, and non-neutrality
00:31:40 <ehird> so why the hell have such a pedantic policy leading to many little, useless pages that people just click on to their user page from?
00:31:44 <oklokok> GregorR would be just Gregor, but some bastard took that already
00:32:12 <oklokok> probably not true given there's not Gregor
00:32:23 -!- ehird has changed nick to Gregor.
00:32:36 <GregorR> Yeah, somebody has that nick.
00:32:44 <GregorR> I neglected to grab it when they first cleared 'em out.
00:32:49 <Gregor> [00:32] NickServ: Nick gregor is already registered to gregor
00:32:52 -!- Gregor has changed nick to ehird.
00:33:06 <oklokok> so maybe i remembered it and didn't guess it
00:33:32 <oklokok> hard to say, since it's rather obvious as you're such a proud user of your irl name
00:35:12 <oklokok> GregorR: you love your irl name
00:35:37 <oklokok> that's what *it* said, when you asked it to marry you
00:35:37 <ehird> Fun fact: The world population fits in about 33 bits.
00:35:44 <ehird> (July 2008 estimate 6,706,993,152)
00:35:56 <oklokok> by which i mean something like "you should marry it", but one step further
00:35:58 <ehird> So one of your CPU's registers, assuming a sufficiently modern CPU, can hold a unique identifier of any person in the world.
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00:36:47 <ehird> oklokok: 64-bit cpus
00:36:53 <ehird> so roughly two bist out
00:36:53 <pikhq> ehird: No, not "almost two".
00:37:13 <ehird> Prelude> logBase 2 6706993152
00:37:15 <ehird> pikhq: why not almost two
00:37:31 <pikhq> Unless you mean "could pack to IDs into a single register", which is the much more obvious definition than what I was going with.
00:38:01 <ehird> I was wondering if someone would mistake that, heh
00:38:26 <oklokok> wait what did pikhq go with
00:38:51 <ehird> oklokok: takes almost two registers
00:39:03 <ehird> oerjan: uh, it's trivial to order all human beings
00:39:09 <ehird> by birth time in planck times, say
00:39:30 <oerjan> ehird: erm, i'm saying you save a bit if you don't order them
00:39:36 <oklokok> oerjan: except it's still "almost two"
00:39:46 <ehird> you need a 1:1 correspondanc
00:40:35 <oklokok> ehird: basic information theory, you store every pair twice, so you need one less bit if you don't save order
00:40:35 <oerjan> logBase 2 (6706993152*6706993151/2)
00:40:56 <ehird> oklokok: I don't follow
00:41:05 <oklokok> ehird: then learn basic information theory
00:41:20 <ehird> oklokok: just explain why you can omit things from a unique identifier
00:41:24 <ehird> only give the bits that differ?
00:41:29 <ehird> could be all of them
00:41:36 <oerjan> ehird: it takes 1 less bit to store an unordered pair of two persons than it takes to store an ordered pair
00:42:10 <oerjan> because there are twice as many ordered pairs
00:42:15 <oklokok> then, take all pairs that are ascending
00:42:26 <oklokok> that's twice less than the amount of unordered pairs
00:42:28 <ehird> oklokok: that means we can't duplicate
00:42:44 <oerjan> ehird: that only adds a small extra though
00:42:46 <oklokok> ehird: we ignored that, complicates it a bit, but still it's about 64.something
00:43:14 <ehird> well (p1,p1) means that it must at least be as many bits as needed for one person
00:43:19 <ehird> I can't imagine storing all of them in one bit
00:43:28 <ehird> so it must be >=65...
00:43:34 <ehird> maybe I'm stupid :)
00:43:57 <oerjan> _one_ person requires 32.something bits
00:44:02 <oklokok> if we're talking unordered pairs, that is, sets, {p1, p1} isn't one
00:45:15 <ehird> oklokok: yeah, but what if the order doesn't matter but you still want duplication
00:45:20 <ehird> e.g. futuristic marriage!
00:45:40 <oklokok> then allow it, and you'll need slightly more bits than you need for ordered pairs that allow duplication.
00:45:51 <ehird> hmm yeah right of course
00:45:56 <ehird> sorry I misread everfksgljsdfjg blah I'ms tupid
00:46:24 <oklokok> don't worry, you wouldn't believe how garbledly i read your message just now.
00:46:33 <oerjan> oklokok: slightly _fewer_ bits
00:48:37 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
00:49:10 <HackEgo> /bin/grep \ /bin/gunzip \ /bin/gzexe \ /bin/gzip
00:52:18 <oklokok> oerjan: your mom had fewer bits before she duplicated. is my response.
00:53:05 <ehird> penis-growing mothers.
00:53:41 <oklokok> what, the only chapter whose content was mostly new to me isn't in the exam
00:54:22 <MizardX> Go and complain, "This is too easy!"
00:55:33 <oklokok> MizardX: i usually slip those complaints into my exam answers
00:56:03 <oklokok> that's my exam style, annoying piece of shit whose always right
00:56:12 <oklokok> well, probably neither, but anyway
00:56:20 <ehird> "(toöluvku haanen!)"
00:56:30 <ehird> what does it mean in finnish xD
00:56:53 <oklokok> you can't have or if you have u
00:57:40 <oklokok> a and can't coexist either
00:58:47 <ehird> Tuläk Universet Haanen
00:59:03 <ehird> hmm that ä should be just a
00:59:10 <oklokok> ehird: you can't end a word with k
00:59:15 <nooga> hyvää paivää i thought that means good day
00:59:21 <ehird> Tulaä Universet Haanen
00:59:50 <ehird> I think Universet is very finnish
00:59:50 <oklokok> also to me, "hyv piv" means "what the fuck" or something
00:59:54 <oklokok> i wouldn't use it as a greeting
01:00:24 <ehird> oklokok: you should
01:00:25 <oklokok> ehird: tula has a, universet sounds somewhat finnish
01:00:32 <ehird> <oklokok> ehird: what the fuck! \o/
01:00:43 <oklokok> it's only what the fuck if you use it right
01:01:03 <ehird> oklokok: Tulaä Universet Haanen
01:01:08 <ehird> I just repeated it
01:01:11 <ehird> ää just looks weird
01:01:27 <nooga> try to synthesize some polish
01:01:29 <oerjan> ehird: universet is actually norwegian
01:01:40 <ehird> nooga: voljka protczneiw
01:02:04 <ehird> oerjan: means university or universe?
01:02:07 <ehird> I'm trying to get university
01:02:23 <ehird> nooga: rusvert kamput
01:02:24 <oklokok> university is universitt or something in swedish
01:02:49 <ehird> nooga: for sweden, herj tumasen
01:02:50 <MizardX> university is "universitet" in swedish
01:03:04 <ehird> MizardX: how sweden is "herj tumasen"
01:03:19 <ehird> nooga: how polish is "voljka protoczniew"
01:03:23 <oerjan> tumasen sounds finnish ;D
01:03:24 <oklokok> MizardX: don't you use "t" for similar purposes as well though?
01:03:31 <oklokok> well, i mean for some purposes
01:03:35 <nooga> oerjan: norwegian is easy, you create words from english ones: centrum -> sentrum, electric -> elektrisk, universe -> universet
01:03:45 <oklokok> oerjan: "tumasen" is finnish
01:04:00 <oerjan> herj would be norwegian for pillage or so
01:04:06 <nooga> ehird: uhm, there lj is very not polish
01:04:35 <nooga> and protoczniew could be a russian surname
01:04:45 <ehird> i was going for like, zbigniew
01:04:58 <nooga> zbigniew is polish name
01:05:17 <oklokok> oerjan: "tumasen" is the genetive of the diminutive of nucleus
01:05:18 <nooga> hm, zbigniew is always an old guy without teeth
01:05:30 <ehird> nooga: how about gasperowicz
01:05:39 <nooga> oh that's actually my surname
01:05:45 <ehird> yeah, I was fucking with you.
01:06:22 <oklokok> MizardX: i'm sorry about never having acquired active knowledge of your language
01:06:30 <oerjan> nooga: those words are in the style of borrowing from latin/french, not english
01:06:46 <oerjan> english doesn't fit so nicely :(
01:07:09 <nooga> cholerni zjadacze majonezu
01:07:14 <oklokok> ehird: "i" doesn't sound very f
01:07:20 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=tääimen&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 / or, russian xD
01:08:05 <oklokok> means at least "of tmis", but "tmi" means nothing
01:08:38 <oerjan> but but it's positively tääming with meaning
01:08:55 <oklokok> could also be a form of the verb "tmi", meaning something like "by tmi'ing", but the verb means nothing
01:09:05 <ehird> oklokok: hahaha awesome
01:09:17 <ehird> all you finns in here should call themselves täämien
01:09:22 <ehird> "Oh yeah, I'm from täämis."
01:09:58 <ehird> "[How should I do it?]" "Täämien [it!]"
01:11:05 <ehird> okokokokokokotäämienokokokokoko
01:11:22 <ehird> wow it fits in so beautifully with the other letters
01:11:25 <oklokok> (this land of tmis tmied by pistils)
01:12:02 <oklokok> finnish is a pretty manglible language compared to english. i like that about it
01:12:15 <oerjan> okotäämien täämienoko okotä täämiö
01:12:36 <ehird> "In my small village of täämis we have a... sacred tradition, täämien[ing]; and I think before we get married, we should prove that we truly love each other by performing it."
01:12:43 <ehird> "Sure, what do we have to do?"
01:13:02 <ehird> "[explanation of bukkake]"
01:13:23 <ehird> It's oh so useful to be from täämis!
01:13:28 <oerjan> manglifyingly mangling
01:13:28 <ehird> In unrealistic fictional situations.
01:13:44 <oklokok> ehird: actually "sacred tradition, tmiminen"
01:14:10 <oklokok> oh you meant "tmien" as a verb? finnish verbs usually end in an "a" or an ""
01:14:22 <ehird> you said it could be a verb
01:14:28 <ehird> [01:08] oklokok: could also be a form of the verb "täämiä", meaning something like "by täämi'ing", but the verb means nothing incompatible encoding
01:14:35 <oklokok> ehird: do you like "omimia"?
01:14:52 <ehird> basically i think it should be used as a verb that means anything
01:15:05 <ehird> and the justification for that is that it's to do with the village of täämien
01:15:10 <ehird> no matter what the meaning is
01:15:19 <ehird> (where you grew up, naturally)
01:15:46 <oklokok> i think we've sidetracked a slight bit
01:15:54 <ehird> my proposal is excellent.
01:16:06 <oklokok> i mean from the original heated discussion
01:16:32 <ehird> penis growing mothers, then you complaining about university exams being easy
01:16:37 <ehird> then I faked some finnish and this
01:16:52 <ehird> before that, 2*person bits
01:17:53 <oklokok> i'm not sure any of those qualifies as a topic
01:18:25 <ehird> before that wiki polciy
01:19:26 <oklokok> that sounds official enough
01:19:41 <oklokok> oerjan: GET BACK HERE AND START FIGHTING
01:20:16 * oerjan swats oklokok -----###
01:20:24 * ais523 lobs a punch at (343, 89)
01:20:45 <oerjan> poor tuple, what did it do to you?
01:20:55 <ais523> no, it's the coordinates that I'm aiming the punch at
01:21:26 <oerjan> somewhere close to the north pole, i take
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01:48:23 <ehird> i want a bigger room
01:48:32 <ehird> hmm come to think of it i just want a one-room apartment
01:48:41 <ehird> mainly because it's hard to get stuff, because I can't put it anywhere
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02:06:37 <ehird> yes, but it didn't work.
02:19:16 <oklokok> one of the fox jokes is a suicide note, i guess the mystery is solved
02:21:24 <oklokok> f1:"have you noticed this book is basically written by a lunatic" f2:"yup" f1:"seriously, he's way too hyperactive, if he keeps up this frantic pace, he's gonna burn out real quick"
02:21:41 <ehird> he said something like before 30
02:21:47 <ehird> although i guess any age applies to that :P
02:21:49 <oklokok> f2:"burn out? he's gonna shoot himself in the head by the time he's 30"
02:22:01 <oklokok> alt says "out in the pickup truck" :P
02:22:08 <ehird> he doesn't look 30
02:22:26 <oklokok> so clearly he agrees with the fox
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02:43:59 <ehird> oklokok: http://i32.tinypic.com/5nq179.jpg
02:44:38 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
02:44:45 <ehird> from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c5on/where_is_why/c0c7ss1
02:44:50 <ehird> could all be false
02:47:28 -!- coppro has joined.
03:04:34 <ais523> wow, codegolf has posted a new challlenge
03:15:33 <ehird> moon looks blue to me
03:17:11 <oerjan> well i hear it tends to so, once in a *hit by falling anvil*
03:19:04 <oerjan> then why did *i* get hit by an anvil? it's not fair i tell you!
03:20:22 <oerjan> also, who the heck got the idea of adding omega-3 to _bread_? this slight fishy taste...
03:23:50 <oerjan> especially as the mackerel in tomato i've got on one of the slices is nowadays advertised in norway approximately as follows: "Question: how many slices with [our traditional mackerel in tomato sauce] do you need to eat in order to get your recommended daily dose of omega 3? Answer: 1"
03:27:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:27:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:28:24 <oerjan> (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing)
03:28:40 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:29:51 <oerjan> and thus, alas, #esoteric starts getting decimated by the swine flu
03:31:16 <oerjan> we will mourn you. even AnMaster, or else i'll swat him.
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03:36:30 * oerjan hopes ehird just went to bed, and didn't have a stroke or something
03:36:41 <ehird> i would have disconnected
03:36:54 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:37:42 <oerjan> right, you don't use a bouncer nowadays?
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03:38:11 <pikhq> My computer is just on in perpetuity.
03:39:28 <ehird> i might when i switch to a laptop so i don't miss things
03:40:23 <oerjan> also, if you usually drink coffee, forgetting it may give a headache. just in case.
03:40:31 <ehird> i don't drink coffee
03:41:39 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether caffeine relieves headache in itself, or if it's just the removal of withdrawal symptoms
03:41:43 <ehird> i'm addicted to pepsi
03:41:57 <oerjan> ah, then that might still apply
03:42:03 <ehird> but i think i'm just tired
03:42:29 <ehird> i drink like... double digit glasses of pepsi a day, i should really cut down :)
03:42:35 <ehird> (note: low double digits.)
03:42:51 <pikhq> Specifically, caffeine can be a good treatment for migraine headaches. It can also cause migraine headaches from withdrawal or excessive dose.
03:43:19 <ehird> hot chocolate made me feel alive after sleepdep yesterday; maybe I should drink it when it starts getting late
04:11:56 <oklokok> oerjan: (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing) <<< i bought those
04:12:21 <oklokok> i drink 2l coke a day on average
04:12:49 <oklokok> and half a liter of $energy_drink
04:14:33 <pikhq> ... Okay, *Americans* get portrayed as being crazy about their soda. You guys... Are freaking insane.
04:15:12 <GregorR> oklokok: Isn't that awfully expensive in $NOT_USA?
04:15:24 <pikhq> (though that portrayal makes some sense -- you can readily buy a ~1L *cup* of soda here...)
04:15:35 <oklokok> i usually drink the 2l in about 4-5 hours, would probably drink two of those if i had an infinite supply
04:15:51 <GregorR> oklokok: Gimme a price! :P
04:15:57 <ehird> well how much is a regular tall glass
04:16:33 <HackEgo> 0.60 Euros = 0.85446 U.S. dollars
04:16:50 <GregorR> So about $1.70 for a 2L. A bit less for a 2L here, but not WILDLY less.
04:17:04 <ehird> does anyone know what regular glasses are called
04:17:13 <oklokok> yeah but that's the insanely cheap coke
04:17:23 <oklokok> most cokes are 2-3 times more expensive
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04:18:39 <oklokok> this one is called "freeway cola"
04:18:57 <oklokok> i don't give a shit about brands
04:18:58 <ehird> in my opinion pepsi is the best
04:19:15 <pikhq> GregorR: I get 2L for ~$1.
04:19:15 <ehird> it has almost all the cold blammo of coke and tastes way better.
04:19:17 <oklokok> pepsi is a completely different drink
04:19:30 <oklokok> at least according to my tastebuddies.
04:19:47 <GregorR> pikhq: Yeah, that was my estimate.
04:19:58 <GregorR> pikhq: But everywhere I've been in Europe, a 2L of coke would be like 4USD, so $1.85 is pretty good :P
04:20:12 <pikhq> GregorR: Fair enough.
04:20:20 <ehird> oklokok: it may be
04:20:23 <ehird> if so, it's superior
04:21:25 <pikhq> Also, we have Mountain Dew.
04:21:33 <pikhq> Which is delicious and caffeinated.
04:21:44 <ehird> isn't it sort of like... citrus?
04:21:57 <oerjan> they tried to market mountain dew here a year or two ago
04:22:00 <ehird> i get the feeling it's an...immature drink
04:22:07 <oerjan> i don't think it took off
04:22:10 <ehird> like, cola, it's mature, one unifying flavour
04:22:12 <GregorR> Yeah, but my favorite soda I have to import, so it's like $1.85 for a 20oz bottle :P
04:22:17 <oklokok> do you mean you have (mountain dew), which is caffeinated, or that you have (mountain dew, which is caffeinated)
04:22:18 <HackEgo> 20 US fluid ounces = 0.591470591 liter
04:22:19 <ehird> mountain dew seems to be like an explosion of KAZAM flavours
04:22:22 <ehird> which is jutst lame
04:22:22 <oklokok> because we have mountain dew
04:22:33 <pikhq> oklokok: (Mountain Dew), which is caffeinated.
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04:22:56 <pikhq> It's a favored drink of many a programmer.
04:23:09 <GregorR> Mountain Dew is disgusting.
04:23:14 <ehird> ANSWER MY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT
04:23:20 <pikhq> ehird: It is *sorta* citrusy.
04:23:30 <ehird> pikhq: but is it mature and homely like cola
04:23:35 <oklokok> GregorR: your opinions on this stuff are kinda useless
04:23:38 <ehird> i mean i see cola as being on par with coffee and wine.
04:23:43 <ehird> it's very mature and distinct.
04:24:03 <ehird> dr pepper moreso, though it doesn't taste better than cola.
04:24:04 <pikhq> ehird: ... You sound like you've never had Dr. Pepper.
04:24:13 <oklokok> by which i mean you could be replaced by a regexp, since you only like two drinks
04:24:43 <oklokok> GregorR: i thought you only like water and soda
04:25:32 <ehird> pikhq: anyway dr pepper is very sophisticated but cola tastes better and is still sophisticated
04:25:42 <ehird> pikhq: maybe i should have the non-hfcs dublin dr pepper?
04:26:09 <oklokok> GregorR: well stop liking it, you used to be special, now you're just really picky.
04:26:26 <GregorR> oklokok: I'm only picky in drinks :P
04:26:39 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
04:26:46 <oklopol> right, sorry, i was being a dick
04:27:08 <ehird> i want to invent my own soft drink
04:27:17 <ehird> with lots of cinnamon
04:27:32 <pikhq> ehird: You need non-HFCS Dr. Pepper.
04:27:40 <ehird> pikhq: how about you buy it for me
04:27:57 <pikhq> Sorry, but if I drive down to Dublin, I'm filling up the car and ITS ALL FOR ME.
04:28:05 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
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04:28:12 <ehird> let's all drive there together
04:28:34 <pikhq> (I only have had the non-HFCS Dr. Pepper when it was shipped nation-wide for a couple of months...)
04:28:57 <GregorR> pikhq: They have it at Greyhouse, a coffee shop near Purdue :)
04:29:15 <GregorR> Along with delicious Puma Kola, made from real Puma blood.
04:29:21 <ehird> Let's all go to an Amsterdam coffee shop! And then an Amsterdam whorehouse.
04:29:25 <pikhq> GregorR: You make a compelling case for me to move.
04:30:35 <GregorR> I'll switch back to being a TA if you transfer and get into my class X-P
04:31:02 <ehird> hmm perfect soda: caffeine, water, sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla
04:31:41 <GregorR> Soooo, ginger ale mixed with cream soda :P
04:31:50 <oklopol> ehird: if it has bubbles and tastes a lot, i'll drink it.
04:31:53 <ehird> GregorR: ginger ale is like real ginger?
04:32:00 <GregorR> ehird: When it's made right.
04:32:05 <GregorR> ehird: When it's made right it IS real ginger.
04:32:16 <ehird> the good thing about my recipe is that it has no citrus
04:32:23 <GregorR> John Kemper's ginger ale will clear your sinuses if you smell it.
04:32:30 <ehird> hmm let's do brown sugar, not white sugar
04:32:36 <ehird> for extra yummy goodness
04:32:55 <ehird> molasses is liquid
04:32:57 <oklopol> what's good about not having citrus
04:33:08 <ehird> oklopol: tangy and unsophisticated
04:33:11 <ehird> not as smooth to drink
04:33:20 <GregorR> ehird: So is semen, but putting that in soda would only appeal to a very niche market.
04:33:58 <oklopol> i remember drinking half a liter of pure lemon juice in germany
04:33:58 <ehird> i mean the fluffy brown sugar
04:34:07 <oklopol> thinking it was some kinda soda
04:34:40 <oklopol> more like... what's the term
04:34:51 <ehird> GregorR: anyway doesn't my recipe sound yummu?
04:35:02 <ehird> caffeine, water, brown sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla
04:35:04 <GregorR> ehird: If you get rid of the brown sugar and lavendar.
04:35:13 <ehird> GregorR: why lavender, it's smooth and nice
04:36:00 <ehird> GregorR: anyway have you ever had fluffy brown sugar, just tasted it
04:36:24 <GregorR> Yes, I have, but I don't feel it would go with the rest of that.
04:36:39 <oklopol> anything goes with anything
04:36:56 <GregorR> Let's add Brussel's Sprouts.
04:37:12 <ehird> GregorR: why wouldn't it
04:37:26 <ehird> it's smooth, it's sweet, it's not tangy
04:37:30 <GregorR> I am not capable of describing food combinations.
04:37:33 <oklopol> i'd love a brussel's sprouts soda
04:37:44 <GregorR> oklopol: Jones makes one around thanksgiving.
04:37:53 <GregorR> oklopol: In the USA and Canada.
04:37:58 <GregorR> oklopol: You could probably get some online.
04:38:15 <GregorR> oklopol: It's enough to make you gag before you can even swallow any of it. It's quite vile.
04:38:19 <ehird> GregorR: well, do you think mine is tangy or spicy w/o the brown sugar? it has no carbonation in it, for instance
04:38:42 <GregorR> ehird: Wait, wtf, it's not carbonated? I thought we were talking about soda!
04:38:49 <ehird> GregorR: DELICIOUS soda.
04:38:58 <GregorR> ehird: SODA IS DEFINED BY CARBONATION YOU FUCKFACE
04:39:02 <ehird> Who says it has to be carbonated? Flat soda is awesome.
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04:39:32 <GregorR> oklopol: They make it as a joke, in case you couldn't guess. They also have turkey and gravy soda.
04:39:32 <oklopol> without bubbles, tastes need to be even more interesting to be entertaining.
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04:40:12 <ehird> caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, (maybe soda)
04:40:17 <ehird> it's (maybe) delicious
04:40:31 <ehird> it'll be safe, right? :P
04:40:51 <GregorR> I honestly think the only unsafe thing would be handling caffeine personally.
04:41:11 <ehird> http://www.colawp.com/colas/400/cola467_recipe.html opencola
04:41:17 <ehird> it has stuff about the caffeine
04:41:32 <ehird> GregorR: warning: cory doctorow involved
04:41:37 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink)
04:41:41 <GregorR> Sweet, /me dons his red cape and goggles
04:41:45 <ehird> opencola was a company unrelated to cola, it was promotional :)
04:42:06 <pikhq> ehird: Good promotion, though. :)
04:42:21 <ehird> it enveloped the company /shrug
04:43:10 <ehird> my mother was an "aromatherapist" in like the 80s and still uses oils a shit ton, so she'll prolly have everything i need
04:43:34 <ehird> (aromatherapy being basically entirely bullshit)
04:44:00 <ehird> they cost a shitload
04:44:41 <pikhq> Yes, and the recipe uses mililiters.
04:44:53 <ehird> the bottles are so tiny
04:45:25 <ehird> http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture98/islandspa/product4.jpg one of these bottles costs about £10
04:45:34 <GregorR> Neroli is a very expensive item, be prepared (US$48.52 for 5.00 ml) D-8
04:46:00 <ais523> opencola's been around for years
04:46:09 <ehird> my recipe is uber-cheap! No neroli!
04:46:12 <pikhq> Man, that recipe. You need eyedroppers.
04:46:22 <ehird> i'm accepting preorders now ;)
04:46:43 <ehird> it will be called Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption
04:46:51 <oklopol> i'll pay that 2x pounds you owe me
04:48:12 <oklopol> or, alternatively, 5 euros & delivery, and you still owe me the 2X pounds
04:48:13 -!- augur has joined.
04:48:19 <ehird> hehe, I'm totally gonna make this
04:48:47 <ehird> not like I'll make a profit.
04:49:12 <ehird> since it will go in a real glass bottle!
04:49:30 <oklopol> do you make the bottle around the soda?
04:49:38 <ehird> oklopol: wanna up the price for the klein bottle?
04:49:39 <ais523> ehird: how come you owe oxlopol 2x pounds?
04:49:45 <ehird> ais523: counter game
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04:49:51 <ehird> he got to #1 from far down insanely quickly
04:49:55 <ehird> ais523: the pointless website?
04:50:00 <oklopol> ehird: depends on the cost of klein bottles
04:50:17 <ais523> and what's the value of x?
04:50:28 <ehird> ais523: it's 20-something
04:50:36 <oklopol> i never remember what people owe me or what i owe them
04:50:53 <oklopol> for instance this one dude owes me something between 200 and 400
04:51:14 -!- augur_ has joined.
04:51:23 <ehird> $56 for http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm
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04:52:11 <pikhq> ehird: You are horribly unrealistic.
04:52:13 <ehird> oklopol: if you buy the bottle you can have the drink free :P
04:52:16 <oklopol> ehird: that's just the 3d projection of one
04:52:23 <pikhq> Don't you know, you can't *put* anything in a Klein bottle?
04:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: you can in these!
04:52:48 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. It's a zero-volume manifold.
04:53:02 <ehird> ...klein bottles = time cube
04:53:14 <pikhq> By a quirk of gravity, it manages to not leak.
04:53:21 <ais523> you can put something in a klein bottle the same way you can put something in a bowl
04:53:33 <ais523> you don't put things /inside/ the bowl, rather, you balance them on top
04:53:56 <ehird> http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm here, to drink, it goes through the handle
04:54:36 <ehird> Slereah: nice use of $80
04:54:42 <Slereah> They're expensive and you can't really use them
04:54:48 <Slereah> They're very hard to clean
04:55:00 <Slereah> It's easy for them to develop mold and shit
04:55:01 <ehird> who needs cleaning
04:55:08 <pikhq> And they're a zero-volume manifold!
04:55:49 <ehird> oklopol: anyway swig ingest drink (for human consumption) in regular bottle glass will be like, oh, 10 euros
04:55:53 <ehird> `calc 10 euros in £
04:56:55 <ehird> it's a specialist item!
04:57:02 <ehird> my cost-per-item is high!
04:57:24 <ehird> ok maybe like 5 euros
04:57:27 <ehird> `calc 5 euros in £
04:58:12 <ehird> includes, like, stuff
04:58:55 <ehird> includes sticker label that makes it look like what'd happen if you applied the chinese ripoff industry to real beer
04:59:00 <oklopol> less money talk, more sending me soda
04:59:12 <ehird> oklopol: i'll make it tomorrow and fridge it
05:00:08 <ehird> oklopol: then get enough shit to make about 5 bottles
05:00:29 <ehird> so hopefully in a few weeks, mail me some money and an address and it's yours :P
05:00:37 <ehird> i'll send you your owed along with it
05:01:11 <oklopol> that sounds really complicated, can't you just send it, and i'll pay you next time i see you
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05:01:37 -!- augur has joined.
05:02:00 <ehird> oklopol: i say "yo <address>", you put money in envelope with address on and send in post
05:02:09 <ehird> later, you get a drink and money in the mail.
05:02:33 <ais523> hmm... does oklopol ever see ehird in RL?
05:02:46 <ehird> no, although rectifying that would be fun
05:02:46 <oklopol> ehird: alright, which payment do you prefer?
05:03:06 <ehird> oklopol: well i won't tell you for a few weeks, so
05:03:07 <oklopol> ais523: last time i was in GB i was 5
05:03:10 <ehird> depends on how tasty it is
05:04:52 <oklopol> if it's tasty, i pay with the debt, if it sucks, i pay 5?
05:05:02 <ehird> something like that
05:05:51 <ehird> oklopol: if it makes me spit it out, you pay even mor since you like that shit
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05:06:14 <oerjan> Slereah: now really, klein bottles are _easy_ to clean, since you only need to clean the outside
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05:08:18 <ehird> oklopol: if you throw in a plane ticket you get an interview with me about it in person.
05:08:21 <ehird> also another bottle.
05:08:58 <GregorR> Lessons learned from Bear Grylls: If you're in the wild and you have to swim, always swim nude.
05:09:26 <GregorR> I have no doubt that he would, given the opportunity.
05:10:08 <oklopol> i've also learned to squeeze water out of elephant shit
05:10:33 <ehird> oklopol: will you be throwing in the plane ticket? :P
05:10:37 <pikhq> http://www.kleinbottle.com/Tantalus.html Also awesome.
05:11:04 <ehird> "suddenly the water drains out through the siphon. (In Canada, Australia, and Britain, the water drains through a syphon)."
05:11:08 <ehird> oklopol: the plane ticket?
05:11:22 <ehird> no idea, like, 80 euros??
05:12:13 <oklopol> i've been given a minimum estimate of 20e
05:12:57 <ehird> oklopol: so like 40 eur realistitcally
05:13:51 <ehird> i'm teaching my children lojban along with english
05:13:59 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:13:59 <ehird> they will be awesome warriors of logic.
05:14:07 -!- augur has joined.
05:15:32 <ehird> anyone else want to preorder swig ingest drink (for human consumption) liquid? augur?
05:15:57 <augur> ehird, you'll have to adopt.
05:16:12 <augur> or get some woman who have you and your partner's baby
05:16:24 <augur> unless they figure out how to let guys get pregnant by the time you're an adult
05:16:54 <augur> well, youre either gay or a girl
05:17:02 <augur> take your pick fag/woman
05:17:21 <augur> gregorr: i do my best
05:17:33 <ehird> augur: anyway it's caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, carbonation.
05:17:50 <oklopol> we heard! congrats out loud in case the silent ones weren't enough
05:17:51 <augur> unless thats a list of ingredients in order of amount
05:17:56 <augur> it sounds delicious
05:17:56 <ehird> augur: swig ingest drink. for human consumption.
05:18:22 <pikhq> Shame it's not Klein.
05:18:33 <ehird> pikhq: add cost of bottle and it is
05:18:53 <GregorR> Apparently you can make carbonated water with just a few 2L bottles, tubing, and yeast.
05:18:57 <pikhq> Klein bottles are, of course, expensive, due to the impracticality of a mold.
05:19:06 <pikhq> GregorR: And sugar.
05:19:13 <GregorR> Well yeah, but I'm considering that free.
05:19:30 <augur> gregor: thats not carbonated water
05:19:50 <ehird> augur: will you buy it, eh?
05:19:53 <GregorR> augur: The tubing is to get the CO2 out of the yeast-sugar-water and into the plain water.
05:20:08 <augur> it sounds cheaper to buy carbonated water.
05:20:12 <pikhq> GregorR: Out of the brewery, actually. :P
05:20:19 <pikhq> augur: Yeast is cheap. Sugar, more-so.
05:20:21 <ehird> augur: like 10 eur or less + shipping!
05:20:34 <GregorR> Yeah, I can't imagine anything being cheaper than the above strategy ...
05:20:37 <ehird> sounds about right
05:20:48 <pikhq> And when you're done, you also have a solution of ethanol.
05:20:51 <ehird> (high unit price :p)
05:21:25 <GregorR> Also, it's extraordinarily difficult to by plain carbonated water without salt in the US. (And not even easy to buy it with salt)
05:21:47 <GregorR> Except for a few places e.g. New Yawk
05:21:50 <ehird> just buy literal soda
05:21:55 <ehird> and put it in water
05:22:12 <ehird> oklopol: btw my soda won't be caramel colour
05:22:14 <ehird> rather, transparent
05:22:20 <ehird> pretend it's water! vodka!
05:23:16 <oklopol> i want alcohol free vodka :\
05:23:55 <GregorR> oklopol: Here's how to make it:
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05:24:35 <augur_> sounds like youre making irish booze
05:24:55 <ehird> augur_: will you order it!
05:25:24 <ehird> why not, oklopol will
05:25:30 <ehird> don't you want to be him.
05:25:34 <augur_> plus, i thought you said =C=10?
05:25:36 <pikhq> augur_: Irish booze? If they didn't have beer, they would invent vodka, yeah.
05:25:51 <augur_> no i dont want to BE oklopol
05:25:58 <augur_> i want to be ON oklopol('s cock)
05:26:00 <oklopol> GregorR: i don't believe you
05:26:14 <ehird> augur_: $ costs more than euro, duh
05:26:22 <pikhq> augur_: How very homosexual of you.
05:26:37 <ehird> augur_: how about $5+shipping
05:26:39 <ehird> for an whole bottle!
05:26:42 <ehird> comes with autograph!
05:26:51 <augur_> thats an even better deal, surely
05:27:16 <ehird> i can't make a profit anyway since i'm not buying the ingredients in bulk
05:27:18 <GregorR> Oh Bear Grylls, covered in pig blood again?
05:27:54 <ehird> "I remember talking to this guy at a 2600 meet once and being turned on by the fact that he was running OpenBSD." —reddit
05:28:06 <augur_> did adrian lamo say that
05:28:14 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9bwy5/im_the_daughter_of_lesbians_ama/c0c73w1
05:28:39 <augur_> "Kif: "Captain, may I have a word with you?" Zapp: "No." Kif: "It's an emergency, sir." Zapp: "Come back when it's a catastrophe!""
05:28:46 <GregorR> Dude, Bear Grylls is eating better than me.
05:28:46 <augur_> <--- adrian lamo's autoreply
05:29:04 <ehird> augur is adrian lamo's autoreply :P
05:29:14 <augur_> god dont even say that
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05:29:30 <augur_> all i get from him is "come to defcon! come have sex with me! come to california!"
05:29:59 <augur_> defcon wouldve been fun
05:30:01 <GregorR> So get him to pay for your ticket!
05:30:05 <GregorR> Then you're just literally a manwhore.
05:30:12 <ehird> augur_: junkliquid
05:30:14 <augur_> do you even know who adrian lamo is?
05:30:25 <ehird> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Lamo)
05:30:32 <augur_> that should surely clear things up with the money issue
05:30:43 <Slereah> Run ehird, he wants your boy butt
05:30:45 <ehird> augur_: was this just an excuse for you to mention knowing a celebrity
05:31:17 <augur_> i mean, hes not really a celebrity
05:31:32 <augur_> unless you watched TSS religiously
05:32:46 <pikhq> "ending a three-year period during which the U.S. District Court's ruling prevented him from exercising certain freedoms, including the ability to employ any privacy protection software, travel outside certain established boundaries, or socialize with security researchers."
05:33:08 <pikhq> ... If that's not unconstitutional, it's certainly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
05:33:14 <ehird> btw i like drinking vanilla extract
05:33:16 <pikhq> Not to mention creepy.
05:33:59 <Pthing> restraining people to within a specific region isn't controversial at least
05:34:36 <pikhq> Pthing: It's explicitly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
05:34:45 <pikhq> And reaks of Soviet Russia.
05:34:59 <pikhq> Freedom of travel?
05:35:53 <Pthing> 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
05:35:53 <Pthing> 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country.
05:36:00 <Pthing> well i mean presumably
05:36:09 <GregorR> You just ate some freaking pork, why are you eating a cricket?
05:36:09 <Pthing> this cannot be in reference to imprisonment
05:36:35 <ehird> pikhq: you know that almost all of the government is unconstitutional?
05:36:46 <ehird> we'd be uber-libertarian if we followed the constitution to the letter
05:36:56 <pikhq> ehird: Or have a much larger constitution.
05:37:08 <ehird> pikhq: not without explicitly contradicting the founding statement.
05:37:17 <ehird> in which case, fuck the constitution, we're ignoring it anyway
05:37:34 <pikhq> And not uber-libertarian. Social programs are constitutional.
05:37:44 <pikhq> (Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare)
05:37:46 <ehird> in economics at least.
05:38:30 <ehird> sleep time at least, oklopol: tell me to make the drink tomorrow
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05:41:31 <oklopol> well maybe it actually was sarcasm, since the "totally" makes sarcasm explicit, working as a negation, whereas i actually am going to tell you
05:41:38 <oklopol> or maybe that's double sarcasm
05:41:44 <augur_> vending machines not working :(
05:42:11 <oklopol> augur_: that's what you get for moving
05:42:32 <GregorR> Apparently the "right to a nationality" is a human right???
05:42:56 <augur_> gregorr: makes sense in the term the UN is probably using it in
05:43:15 <GregorR> augur_: Ahhh, OK, yeah, that makes sense I guess. Context is everything.
05:43:40 <Pthing> stateless people are in a fucked up situation
05:43:53 <augur_> "nationality" in the governmental sense just means "belonging to some state or other"
05:44:11 <Slereah> What if you are born in international waters
05:44:14 <augur_> not "belonging to their own state
05:44:14 <GregorR> Poor people born and raised --- yeah!
05:44:26 <Pthing> citizenship from parents
05:44:28 <augur_> that doesnt make you not a national.
05:44:46 <augur_> as pthing said, citizenship in most firstworld countries comes from parents
05:44:54 <Slereah> Pthing : But what if that state is DROIT DU SOL
05:45:12 <augur_> also, gregorr: interestingly there are some people who end up having no country
05:45:27 <augur_> who got on a plane to some country
05:45:41 <augur_> and during the flight, his country was invaded and taken over and ceased to exist
05:45:46 <augur_> rendering his passport useless
05:45:57 <augur_> and no im not thinking of that movie with tom hanks
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05:47:12 <oklopol> augur_: did they kill him to avoid the paperwork
05:47:16 <augur_> A slightly tragicomic portrayal of this condition is the film The Terminal (2004), in which a man is forced to live in an airport due to his unrecognized citizenship status (his homeland had a military coup while he was in transit and the US government refused to recognize its new government). This story was inspired in part by the real-life story of Mehran Karimi Nasseri, who spent almost two decades in the Charles de Gau
05:47:18 <augur_> lle Airport, originally due to conflicts with French law (he refused to claim being an Iranian refugee) plus also the fact he was not welcome in his countries of origin (Iran and Belgium) nor his destination (the United Kingdom). He was eventually granted and served with French immigration documents, but subsequently refused to leave the building.
05:48:10 <augur_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri
05:48:17 <oklopol> i'd love to live in an airport
05:49:19 <oklopol> any big building would work for me
05:49:30 <oklopol> ...or insanely small, that's fun too
05:49:38 <augur_> now hes living in a homeless shelter
05:49:50 <augur_> he'd be awesome to have around
05:50:10 <augur_> go to posh clubs and be like "ever seen terminal? this guy is the real thing"
05:50:44 <GregorR> Reading the wikipedia page on him makes him just seem like a dick.
05:51:57 <GregorR> "Hey if you come back to Belgium we'll give you new papers, then you can go back to the UK." "I don't want to go to Belgium, I want to go to the UK." "OK, that's fine, just come back and get new papers, then you can go." "But I want to go to the UK." "Or maybe you just want to live in an airport as essentially an 18-year publicity stunt?" "Yeah, that's it."
05:52:04 <augur_> im sure he could escape the airport tho
05:52:08 <augur_> noone fucking notices that shit man
05:52:16 <oklopol> something funny about augur wanting to live with him and him being a dick cuz you know gay
05:52:18 <augur_> well, on domestic flights, anyway
05:52:43 <oklopol> i totally see which strings to pull
05:52:50 <GregorR> oklopol: You should do get-punched-in-the-face-up.
05:53:00 <augur_> you can pull my strings ;o
05:53:10 <oklopol> like, insult a random angry dude in the audience
05:53:32 * GregorR is now imagining an augur_ man-nequin
06:30:47 <oklopol> nothing good on your internets?
06:33:08 -!- ehird has joined.
06:33:32 <ais523> well, I'm still awake, too
06:34:23 <ehird> you validate my poor decisions
06:34:35 <ais523> I'm going to sleep in the daytime, like I did yesterday
06:35:05 <ehird> ais523: well, I've been up all day and haven't slept yet
06:35:14 -!- augur has joined.
06:35:30 <ehird> and the day before the day preceding this night, I hadn't slept the whole night prior
06:35:40 <ehird> so I know what, by having not slept yet, I'm getting myself into
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06:35:54 <oklopol> i've been trying to go to the bank all week, but i'm always asleep while it's open
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06:38:00 <ehird> maybe I should adopt Uberman's, right now
06:38:38 <oerjan> i was considering going to bed soon, but with this group pressure :D
06:39:20 <oklopol> it must be because this is an international channel and we live in different countries
06:39:31 <ehird> oklopol: yes, there's like, 3 hours difference.
06:41:13 <oklopol> ehird: just remember coming to finland will make christmas come sooner.
06:41:26 <ehird> oerjan: so you haven't slept all day?
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06:42:56 <oerjan> not during night time however
06:44:45 <ehird> oklopol: is finland really cold
06:46:27 <GregorR> `google weather in Finland
06:46:28 <HackEgo> Displays current conditions for all major cities on one page, with five-day forecast and more detailed information for each available. \ www.wunderground.com/global/FI.html - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
06:46:37 <GregorR> Cool, I use wunderground.com :P
06:47:05 <ehird> i wonder if they know what their name implies
06:47:27 <ehird> oklopol: dude that shit sounds kinda cold, it's like 18 C around here nowadays
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06:48:16 <oklopol> i don't know the temperature, could check if i wasn't so tired
06:48:49 <ehird> GregorR: btw http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1347/has-a-guy-been-stuck-in-the-paris-airport-since-1988-for-lack-of-the-right-papers, not as simple as you implied about belgium
06:49:08 <GregorR> ehird: All I know I got from Wikipedia.
06:49:20 <ehird> right, but it's more nuanced than that even on wikipedia GregorR
06:49:24 <ehird> he couldn't just have gone there
06:49:37 <oklopol> all i know is it's warm in a t-shirt
06:49:45 <ehird> oklopol: ... at 10 C?
06:49:49 <ehird> what kind of guy are you
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06:50:15 <oklopol> i occasionally wear a t-shirt in subzero
06:52:29 <ehird> apart from weather finland sounds amazing
06:52:36 <ehird> do you guys have a pirate party
06:52:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ipwp8ekbh9qwu2I_5mBIGQBCNZ9w
06:53:15 <ehird> oklopol: as of about 12 hours ago you guys have a pirate party
06:53:58 <oklopol> well what do you know, i thought we've had one for ages
06:54:03 <ehird> but not an official party
06:54:08 <ehird> they got registered
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07:02:30 <ehird> hi oklopol, ais523, oerjan
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07:06:45 <oklopol> because i am so tired everything is slomo
07:14:09 <ehird> oklopol: you are validating my decision to not sleep yet
07:15:41 <ehird> ais523: validate me.
07:16:04 <ais523> ehird: 88cf5ba3488a2e27d329a495f9413e86
07:16:25 <ehird> ais523: what is that
07:16:37 <ais523> it's an md5 hash of your nickname, for validation purposes
07:16:52 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: you're such an idiot
07:16:55 <ehird> that's usual ping time
07:17:17 <ehird> me to oklopol is 0.71
07:17:20 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: you're pinging slower than ehird
07:17:36 <ehird> ais523: hee, remember ec?
07:17:37 <ais523> [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-PING request from ehird.
07:17:43 <ais523> ehird: could you ping me in lowercase instead?
07:17:48 <ehird> ais523: ask my client
07:17:49 <ais523> there may be something weird about my client
07:18:18 <ehird> anyway, ec just "headdesks repeatedly until he bleeds from the forehead", which makes me happy and joy
07:18:19 <ais523> hmm... but if I ping you in capitals, I still get a time bac
07:18:30 <ais523> so, why does my client not like your pings?
07:18:41 <ais523> it accepts me pinging myself
07:18:51 <ais523> ehird: just got 11 unknown CTCP-PINGs in a row
07:18:55 <ais523> the last was in lowecase
07:18:58 <ehird> that was me hitting the button, then me doing /ctcp
07:19:07 <ais523> something weird is going on here
07:19:28 <ais523> ehird: try again, I've turned the raw log on
07:19:37 <Deewiant> Incidentally, if anybody wants to golf something: while(<STDIN>){if($l++){print substr $_,0,$r;print substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0];print substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}}
07:19:44 <ehird> Deewiant: ...in K?
07:20:03 <ehird> wow, such hard thinking for tiredness
07:20:17 <ehird> Deewiant: describe what it does
07:20:26 <ais523> >> :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk PRIVMSG ais523 :<CTCP>PING 1250749170<CTCP> || >> :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 PRIVMSG ais523 :<CTCP>ping<CTCP>
07:20:46 <ais523> also, when I do /ctcp ais523 ping, it adds an argument to the ping
07:20:53 <ais523> heh, it doesn't accept ping without an argument for some reason
07:21:08 <ais523> but it's fine with a silly argument
07:21:22 <ehird> Deewiant: so what's it do
07:21:35 <Deewiant> Shouldn't be too hard to figure out
07:21:47 <ehird> Deewiant: it's 7am, tell me :|
07:21:49 <Deewiant> I have to go to work now so I can't explain it for about an hour ->
07:21:52 <oerjan> Deewiant: we're all sleep-deprived here
07:21:53 <ehird> i can create, i can't comprefuck you
07:22:19 <ehird> i wonder if drugs make you this stupid
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07:23:58 <ehird> whereforth dost thou cometh
07:24:17 <kwertii> uhhhh.... in search of esotericism
07:24:36 * ehird glances at your channel list
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07:24:40 <ehird> seems a bit programming-biased to me.
07:24:53 <ehird> usually the people who come in here expecting esotericism have no other channels.
07:25:15 <ehird> kwertii: alas, the general consensus here is, I imagine, that esotericism is a load of bullshit. we play around with esoteric programming languages.
07:25:38 <ehird> so, swing and a miss
07:25:55 <kwertii> yeah, I know. I've been here before :)
07:26:06 <ehird> hmm perhaps, I haven't slept
07:26:21 <ehird> kwertii: was it a joke then, i really can't tell atm
07:26:40 <ehird> ...so why come to a channel that you know doesn't cater to what you want?
07:26:57 <kwertii> on the contrary; I came to a channel that I know does cater to what I want. esoteric programming language discussion.
07:27:31 <ehird> but you said the magic kind of esotericism
07:27:40 <ehird> ais523: we don't usually do esoteric magic rituals to create our languages, do we?
07:27:44 <kwertii> no.. I just said esotericism
07:27:56 <oerjan> 08:24 ehird> the magic kind?
07:27:57 <kwertii> which can easily apply to programming languages
07:28:03 <ais523> no, this is strictly the programming kind
07:28:13 <ehird> i have to make Druidcode now.
07:28:18 <ehird> WE WILL FOREVER CROSS BOUNDARIES
07:28:22 <kwertii> programming languages can be magic.
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07:28:31 <ehird> kwertii: you tricksy guy :)
07:28:35 <kwertii> I didn't see a firm distinction there
07:28:45 <ehird> kwertii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism FYI
07:28:57 <ehird> ais523: the compiler checks GPS to see if you're at stonehenge and errors out if you're not
07:29:15 <ais523> that could be kind-of tricky
07:29:29 <ais523> especially as I have reams of fake gpsd data, not from stonehenge though
07:29:44 <ehird> it buys an iphone 3g s for you, so no cheating
07:29:59 <oerjan> i think hexham should count, with that name
07:30:18 <ehird> we only use magic to make ham sandwiches
07:31:00 <oerjan> that sounds very ham-fisted
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07:39:14 <ehird> ais523: good pba solution
07:41:19 <kwertii> so.. what's going on in the esoteric programming world?
07:41:28 <ehird> AnMaster: haven't slept yet, like ais523
07:41:47 <ehird> yes, we could DIE.
07:41:57 * AnMaster watches ata exceptions during resume from disk
07:42:08 <ehird> they usually mean nothing ime
07:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there seems to be some reports about data loss on ext4 related to suspend to ram though
07:42:49 <AnMaster> like the chipset in this laptop
07:45:01 <ehird> mmh... I want a lisp machine...
07:45:43 <ehird> well, you can get one for $675
07:45:54 <kwertii> I thought of buying a Lisp machine back when I had money before I went back to school... till I realized it was the size and heat output of a small refrigerator and the CPU was slower than the one on my phone
07:46:11 <ehird> so... it's not like they're impossible to afford... but while spending a thousand bucks on a new computer seems fine, an old lisp machine...
07:46:21 <ehird> kwertii: 9 x 18 x 25 inches dimensions
07:46:23 <ehird> that's not too big
07:46:25 <ehird> (the old machines)
07:46:38 <ehird> 70 pounds though = 31 kg
07:46:40 <ehird> that's about as heavy as me
07:46:48 <kwertii> ehird: really? ok, I dunno what I was looking at. it seemed unreasonable in any case :) maybe it was the weight.
07:46:57 <ehird> kwertii: probably the newer models
07:47:08 <ehird> but they're just macs running the emulator
07:47:14 <ehird> AnMaster: yep, I'm like 35kg or something
07:47:21 <ehird> maybe 37 now, tops
07:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm slightly more than twice as heavy :P
07:47:42 <ehird> kwertii: but no doubt they're slow and noisy
07:47:49 <ehird> very noisy - the standard solution was to run loooooong cables
07:47:59 <ehird> kwertii: the gem is in the OS and the architecture
07:48:08 <kwertii> ehird: can't you emulate it?
07:48:18 <ehird> the OS, yes, the architecture, no
07:48:26 <ehird> symbolics machines were very much all-the-way-down
07:48:31 <ehird> everything was pervasive
07:50:02 <ehird> kwertii: http://sfxbros.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/_7c2/sfxbros/symbolics-3620-053.jpg a 3620
07:50:09 <ehird> including symbolics keyboard, mouse and screen
07:50:23 <kwertii> interesting.. about what year is that?
07:50:24 <ehird> (they actually made their own screens iirc)
07:50:31 <ehird> kwertii: 80something, of course
07:50:41 <ehird> kwertii: they use ESDI disks
07:50:44 <ehird> a precursor to SCSI
07:50:45 <kwertii> what does it do at the sub-OS level that's cool?
07:51:12 <ehird> kwertii: the architecture is lispy, it has built-in support for tagged pointers, helpers, iirc, for GC, ...
07:51:31 <ehird> kwertii: not hardware GC
07:51:33 <ehird> but support for it
07:51:40 <ehird> the actual gc was at OS level, using the hardware support
07:51:48 <ehird> kwertii: but it has instructions to do taggedp ointers
07:52:01 <ehird> it'd do the operation on the pointer, while simultaneously checking the tag
07:52:09 <ehird> kwertii: custom, of course!
07:52:14 <ehird> that's what made them lisp machines
07:52:35 <ehird> kwertii: in fact, they made everything themselves, apart from iirc the keyboard material
07:52:45 <ehird> despite making all their screen mechanics, they decided that was just too much
07:53:15 <ehird> apparently, they're really, really loud and power hungry the 36xx series
07:53:30 <ehird> but the macivory machines arne't lisp machines, so lame, and the XL machine is both loud and costs $3,500 and is huge
07:53:38 <ehird> kwertii: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt btw
07:53:49 <ehird> "If you really want a collector's item, we have a number of different 36xx" is the line about the machines i'm talking about
07:53:52 <ehird> weigh up to 400 pounds!
07:54:00 <kwertii> huh. you could emulate all that hardware...
07:54:15 <ehird> there are lisp machine emulators
07:54:31 <kwertii> ehird: I suggested this a minute ago and you said "the OS yes but not the rest"
07:54:40 <ehird> kwertii: you can emulate everything of course
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07:54:46 <ehird> but not the experience
07:54:56 <ehird> if there's a layer below, that's a limitation
07:55:01 <ehird> with a lisp machine, everything is there at every level
07:55:03 <kwertii> an emulator won't keep your coffee cup warm
07:55:22 <kwertii> or have the cops show up thinking you're growing marijuana in your closet from your power bill..
07:55:47 <ehird> kwertii: just get a bunch of them. the power bill software is written in c
07:59:56 <kwertii> .ehird so what do you think of Clojure?
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08:00:05 <ehird> it basically sucks.
08:00:36 <ehird> i could write a book about it, but i haven't slept yet so i'm not going to
08:01:26 <kwertii> it fixes my #1 problem with CL, the lack of libraries, and the #2 problem, the massive spec bloat deriving from design-by-committee
08:01:44 <kwertii> but I admit I haven't done any nontrivial projects with it yet, so I don't know how well it will hold up
08:01:58 <ehird> i guess, if you're a practicalist who can deal with the vomit-worthy pile of stench that is using java, then it's fine
08:02:00 <ehird> i'm an idealist who can't
08:02:11 <kwertii> Java runtime != Java the language
08:02:19 <ehird> well aware, thank you
08:02:32 <ehird> the runtime and associated baggage nontheless exists and i find it intolerable
08:02:33 <kwertii> don't get me wrong, I'd prefer something that compiled to machine code if it were available...
08:03:59 <ehird> i don't see lisp as the future
08:04:08 <ehird> it compromises the common usability for the less common usability of macros
08:04:20 <ehird> the macros should be slightly more awkward than coding; lisp gets this dead backwards
08:04:55 <ehird> right now (as others here can attest) I'm obsessed with the K language
08:05:06 <kwertii> CL is frozen in 1984 or so, which is part of the problem, and Scheme devs are more into writing cool recursive fractal algorithms than actually, say, interacting with a user
08:05:52 <kwertii> if you know of a job where you get paid to write fractals, pls let me know :)
08:06:06 <ehird> yay, a language that's good for getting jobs!
08:06:12 <ehird> i'm switching to C++.
08:06:21 <AnMaster> ehird, s/C++/Java/ these days :/
08:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: but we're discussing java
08:06:32 <kwertii> I hate having a job as much as the next guy, but I gotta pay the rent...
08:06:32 <ehird> kwertii: gets jobs
08:06:49 <ehird> job security especially from all the pointless unmaintainable code you'll inevitably write.
08:06:49 <kwertii> and ideally I'd rather not be stuck using a suck language for it
08:07:11 <ehird> i would never write software products anyway, only backend code
08:07:19 <ehird> so it doesn't bother me much
08:08:01 <ehird> (i have concluded that the selling of unscarce goods like software is at best pointless (as it can be, morally, made more or less impossible) or worst immoral)
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08:08:32 <kwertii> ehird: couldn't agree more. but alas, I'm not independently wealthy, so I am forced to vend my labor at the crass altar of capitalism.. :(
08:08:45 <ehird> i don't mind capitalism.
08:08:49 <ehird> but selling software contradicts capitalism.
08:08:54 <ehird> capitalism is about scarce goods
08:09:20 <kwertii> ehird: if someone would pay me to write GPL code, I'd be fine with that
08:09:27 <ehird> but i'm crazily principled and as of yet under the age of employment, so what do i know :)
08:09:44 <kwertii> s/gpl/<insert favorite license>/g
08:10:07 <ehird> ideally there'd be no copyright and I wouldn't have to license things... but, MIT
08:10:11 <kwertii> yeah, I remember that... under age of employment.. that was nice
08:10:28 <kwertii> nowadays if I don't get money, I starve. that would suck. a lot.
08:10:33 <ehird> starving is quite bad
08:10:46 <ehird> though it's easy to not starve
08:10:53 <ehird> harder to do the rest
08:10:58 <kwertii> I've also grown fond of sleeping indoors
08:11:09 <ehird> what country do you live in?
08:11:46 <ehird> in the uk at least it's perfectly possible to live in a house with food without working, although of course this is being a leech
08:12:30 <kwertii> it's a bit harder here. nobody gives a fuck if you don't have a place to live.
08:12:52 <kwertii> there are homeless shelters, but they're not exactly pleasant
08:13:01 <ehird> i always just assumed other places have a similar system
08:13:11 <ehird> it's perfectly possible to live in an ok house quite comfortably here without working
08:13:17 <ehird> well i say quite ok
08:13:19 <ehird> not that okay, but
08:13:45 <ehird> i guess in the us that'd fail due to people going "taxes! ohhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"
08:14:30 <kwertii> also, the concept of the role of govt is rather different here compared to Europe... there was a huge backlash against the welfare state model starting with Reagan in the 1980s to the present
08:14:54 <ehird> it's insane how far-right the us is
08:15:17 <ehird> yet i've seen someone not entirely off their rocker claim that they think most of the world would consider obama far-left
08:15:31 <ehird> then again they also think he wasn't born in the usa, so i guess he is off his rocker
08:15:40 <kwertii> *shrugs* 1) it's not as bad as foreigners think, and 2) the country is split about 50-50 between right and left. the right are just much better organized and more vocal, so their presence is overstated in the media
08:16:12 <ehird> (1) seriously, man, i follow your politics. the only way it could be fine is a reality distortion field when you enter
08:16:15 <ehird> (2) but your "left" is democrats
08:16:20 <ehird> democrats are right wing too
08:16:29 <kwertii> my city supervisor here in SF is from the Green Party
08:16:36 <ehird> i mean, i say this in the uk, and the UK is right-wing!
08:17:02 <kwertii> but SF is far-left by US standards..
08:17:04 <ehird> kwertii: the greens are okay from what i gather
08:17:15 <ehird> well, Cynthia McKinney is insane
08:18:08 <kwertii> the center here is definitely to the right of the center in Europe, incl the UK
08:18:38 <ehird> basically, i consider the only countries with an acceptable political climate to be the european social democracies
08:19:04 <kwertii> eh. I lived in Germany for a year, it wasn't that great politically
08:19:12 <ehird> i wouldn't class germany under that
08:19:19 <kwertii> it was run by Social Democrats at the time..
08:19:44 <ehird> err, that's just a name
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08:21:39 <ehird> "It consists of the kingdoms of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.[2] While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland"
08:21:46 <kwertii> they seem nice politically, but most Scandinavians I've met irl were *ahem* not very friendly
08:22:24 <kwertii> I wouldn't want to live there
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08:22:38 <ehird> as i was about to asy
08:22:53 * ehird glances at AnMaster, Deewiant, FireFly, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros, MizardX, olsner and oklopol
08:22:56 <ehird> oh, and possibly MigoMipo
08:23:07 <ehird> kwertii: want to revise your statement about scandinavians? :
08:23:16 <Deewiant> Hooray for highlighting everybody for no good reason
08:23:16 <kwertii> 50% of them were perfectly nice
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08:23:22 <ehird> Deewiant: uh, for very good reason
08:23:30 <kwertii> 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason
08:23:31 <ehird> you're all scandinavians
08:23:37 <ehird> kwertii: omg! people are dicks.
08:23:39 <olsner> obviously, you must've offended those scandinavians somehow
08:23:52 <kwertii> more than the usual "people being dicks" level
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08:24:14 <ehird> are you suggesting that scandinavia's weather makes people assholes :)
08:24:15 <Deewiant> ehird: But their input isn't needed: you could just say "about 25% of the people here are Scandinavian", or whatever
08:24:26 <ehird> Deewiant: that is much less directly convincing
08:24:33 <ehird> because it's vagguer
08:24:40 <kwertii> Berlin. I met a Norweigan girl in Berlin, asked her whether it was very different from Norway. She said, "oh yes, everyone is so *friendly* here! It's not like this in Norway..." my American friend and I looked at each other, jaws agape..
08:24:50 <AnMaster> gah, bad lag after reconnecting
08:25:06 <AnMaster> the context for "<AnMaster> kwertii, where was this?" thus was "<kwertii> 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason"
08:25:11 <AnMaster> in case it arrived much much later
08:25:50 <kwertii> AnMaster: I was going to a German language school in Berlin that had many Scandinavian students. half were perfectly nice and friendly, the other half were indifferent / openly hostile, even to the other Scandinavians."
08:26:24 <Deewiant> Most Finns are "indifferent" to each other
08:26:39 <Deewiant> I don't know about "openly hostile", maybe that's just what it looks like to an American :-P
08:26:50 <kwertii> Deewiant: yes, I suspect that is it.
08:26:59 <AnMaster> kwertii, not representative of the actual countries I think
08:27:14 <ehird> btw you should ignore AnMaster, he's stupid :)
08:28:05 <AnMaster> and you should ignore ehird for being silly :P
08:28:08 <Deewiant> But anyway, back to while(<STDIN>){if($l++){print join(substr $_,0,$r),substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0],substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}}
08:28:19 <kwertii> AnMaster: I dunno. the Norweigan girl described Berliners as "friendly".
08:29:01 <ehird> Deewiant: what does it do
08:29:35 <Deewiant> ehird: It finds the indices of * and an optional $ on the first line, then for each line after that prints the range up to where the * was, repeats the *-to-$ range argv[0] times, then prints the $-to-EOL range
08:30:06 <Deewiant> Because there's no good reason why not
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08:31:56 <Deewiant> It's essentially expanding a simple description of simple Befunge
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08:33:11 <Deewiant> My guess is that that can be stripped to half of that in Perl
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08:39:04 <kwertii> you guys have any intuitions on whether/how different human languages could be said to have different "complexities" (for some definition of "complexity")?
08:39:46 <kwertii> Deewiant: this is someone in here?
08:40:02 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil
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08:40:49 <kwertii> I'm studying linguistics now, and the general party line in the field is that it is horribly politically incorrect to suggest that one language is more "complex" than another
08:43:09 <kwertii> Deewiant: ... wow. awesome. I just have to show people this grammar, and they will be disabused of that idea
08:44:46 <Deewiant> IIRC Ilaksh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilaksh) has simpler phonology but more complex grammar
08:45:00 <kwertii> though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex
08:45:24 <kwertii> I can't think of a good way to formalize complexity in the context of human language
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12:09:33 <Sgeo> Hm, ehird's not in here :(
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15:08:14 <Sgeo> Installing VirtualBox, which requires disconnecting. BRB.
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15:28:50 <Deewiant> Hmph, I tried a regex variation but it only became longer; I fail at Perl golf
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15:56:22 * AnMaster goes and decreases cache misses in cfunge :P
15:56:28 <AnMaster> just to annoy ehird and Deewiant
15:57:02 <AnMaster> now, checking for if fingerprint is implemented will soon have a unit stride of a funge cell :D
15:59:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, currently my scheme for checking for fingerprints is simple, I have a struct with { fingerprint, pointer to loader function, implemented opcode list} basically
15:59:44 <AnMaster> I found that a linear scan was faster than a binary search
15:59:47 <Deewiant> Ah, and you just did an search through that
16:00:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, binary search is slower than a linear search with abort if we went too far
16:00:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because on 64-bit platforms you could fit about 1.5 such structs in a cache line before
16:01:06 <AnMaster> which is clearly suboptimal when searching through them
16:01:26 <AnMaster> better find the index you want, then look up the entire data thingy for that only
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16:14:57 <Deewiant> Is it possible to close an fd in /proc/$pid/fd/ from outside the program somehow
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16:18:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, inject things with gdb?
16:18:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but to me, doing so sounds like a seriously bad idea
16:19:33 <Deewiant> Starting a program with "foo &" and wanting to close its stdin
16:20:06 <AnMaster> okay, for some reason the unit stride access slowed it down according to profiling
16:20:13 <Deewiant> In this case I can just modify the program to exit if it gets a certain input line, but I'm wondering if that'd be possible
16:20:58 <AnMaster> possibly hardware prefetcher was smart enough to prefetch in the normal case, but now that we needed to find the matching entry in the other array as well that caused a cache miss?
16:21:23 <Deewiant> You can try allocating one contiguous block for both arrays
16:21:30 <Deewiant> But it might still fail if it gets too big
16:21:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean storing them both in a struct after each other?
16:22:21 <Deewiant> Actually I meant just "fingerprints = malloc(size of fingerprints + size of data); data = &fingerprints[size of fingerprints];"
16:22:37 <Deewiant> A struct might have some padding, after all ;-P
16:22:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep, on my old pentium 3 the unit stride version is faster
16:22:59 <AnMaster> and iirc that lacks hardware prefetch
16:23:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, since they are stored as static const
16:23:26 <Deewiant> So add a configuration entry to your CMake, asking the user if his processor can prefetch ;-)
16:23:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, the difference codewise between the different variants is too large
16:24:13 <Deewiant> If they're constants the struct way still works
16:24:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fun thing: even on my intel core 2 duo laptop, gcc generates a cfunge that is significantly faster
16:24:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. I was just saying the malloc way didn't
16:25:22 <AnMaster> since you basically are suggesting I should use unaligned access to it
16:25:28 <Deewiant> You might want to optimize for memory use instead of CPU time
16:25:45 <Deewiant> Although they're pointers so they're pretty much guaranteed to be aligned anyway
16:25:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought about an option for that.
16:26:33 <AnMaster> would be useful for "embedded cfunge" ;P
16:27:11 <AnMaster> but too much work for too little gain (currently at least)
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16:30:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really, concurrent funge is irritating, it isn't very useful (all IPs blocks on blocking IO...) and it prevents JITing, since you can't do stuff like constant folding the program or such
16:30:58 <AnMaster> or optimising idioms like >:#,_
16:31:58 <Deewiant> You can still optimize in the single-threaded case
16:32:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but that basically means two implementations
16:32:38 <Deewiant> Or do something like suspend an IP doing >:#,_, run the others until they would do something side-effecting, count how many characters could've been output in that time, output that many
16:33:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well yes, if you want to JIT the whole thing
16:33:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, optimising idioms would probably best be implemented as a part of a JIT
16:34:01 <AnMaster> because, looking for idioms would be quite expensive if you did it every time you hit > in an interpreter
16:34:13 <AnMaster> or tracking last few instructions executed
16:34:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just adding a tick counter makes a measurable difference in cfunge.
16:35:18 <AnMaster> (the fact that that difference is around 0.010 shows just how fast cfunge is at mycology :P)
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16:38:00 <AnMaster> $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null
16:38:13 <AnMaster> $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null
16:38:18 <Deewiant> No, it just shows how slow your computer is :-P
16:38:29 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:38:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just showing how much faster mylaptop is
16:39:26 <Deewiant> I guess that's without exact bounds
16:40:06 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened debug asserts p:64 c:32]
16:40:16 <AnMaster> cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened p:64 c:32]
16:40:40 <AnMaster> wait was wrong directory on desktop
16:40:57 <AnMaster> On desktop: cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:32]
16:41:16 <AnMaster> it seems like ubuntu modified stuff to always use the checking versions of some libc functions
16:41:23 <AnMaster> which is what the hardened switch normally does
16:41:35 <AnMaster> so I guess it could be even faster
16:42:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, let me check without exact bounds :P
16:42:20 <Deewiant> Interestingly low user time on that last one, then
16:42:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I was not in debug directory for that, I managed to change terminal tab between that and checking the version
16:45:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this may be because I had to turn off hpet on my laptop due to it being buggy
16:45:37 <AnMaster> regression in all kernels after 2.6.24 for this chipset. bug report exists
16:46:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so user timing may be inexact on there
16:46:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in fact, seems to be multiples of 0.008 unless at least 0.020
16:47:19 <AnMaster> or 0.004 so that theory didn't hold
16:47:44 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -Fb ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:47:58 <AnMaster> that is without exact bounds, without concurrent funge support, and without fingerprints
16:48:15 <AnMaster> with fingerprints that ends up at:
16:48:18 <AnMaster> $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null"
16:48:30 <AnMaster> oh yeah, I forgot, it also wasn't linked against ncurses
16:51:25 <Deewiant> Hrmph, how should I talk to a process started as a background job
16:51:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, there are several ways
16:51:43 <AnMaster> depending on how much you need to tell it
16:51:53 <AnMaster> signals, sockets, fifos for example
16:52:21 <AnMaster> watching a directory with gamin or similar to look for new request files in it? ;P
16:52:24 <Deewiant> I just want as simple a way as possible to give it textual input from a shell script
16:52:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok signals is a bad idea then
16:53:09 <AnMaster> I deigned a protocol for arbitrary data using just SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2
16:53:10 <Deewiant> So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately
16:53:30 <Deewiant> I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open
16:53:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mkfifo then keep that file open from inside your source?
16:54:09 <AnMaster> but of course, pipe() works if both programs will run all the time
16:54:13 <Deewiant> Ideally I could keep this as reading from stdin
16:54:26 <pikhq> I'd just like to note that, for all its flaws, Erlang makes for nice servers.
16:54:46 <pikhq> Erm. In spite of all its flaws.
16:54:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for any data over SIGUSR[12]: Let SIGUSR1 be equal to the bit 0, and SIGUSR2 be equal to the bit 1
16:55:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that's rather obvious.
16:55:07 <AnMaster> wait for a confirmation using SIGUSR1
16:55:15 <AnMaster> since otherwise signals might be merged
16:55:45 <AnMaster> if the other process want to send to you, use SIGUSR2 as kind of "Now it's my turn to talk"
16:56:18 <AnMaster> so for receiving process: SIGUSR1 is confirm, SIGUSR2 is "I want to send"
16:56:47 <AnMaster> there may be a race condition for confirming SIGUSR2
16:57:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, I suggest shared memory. It is the coolest.
16:58:06 <Deewiant> Speed is uninteresting, the data amount is minimal
16:58:23 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately
16:59:20 <AnMaster> use mkfifo to create a file on the file system
16:59:30 <AnMaster> make sure to open it in non-blocking mode if you need that
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16:59:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then echo stuff into that fifo
16:59:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems simple enough to me
17:00:09 <AnMaster> have done it a few times myself using mkfifo(1) in bash scripts
17:01:55 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open
17:02:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, select is simple if you use a high level language :P
17:02:36 <AnMaster> heck, even epoll is simple in something like erlang
17:02:39 <Deewiant> "mkfifo foo; cat foo &; echo a >> foo" -> cat hits EOF and dies
17:02:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't do it like that
17:02:55 <AnMaster> if you want to do it in a shell script
17:03:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in POSIX shells exec is stupidly overloaded
17:04:14 <AnMaster> exec foo is the normal variant
17:05:16 <AnMaster> to open it on fd 4 in the shell itself
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17:07:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, better tell me what language you are coding this in
17:07:26 <AnMaster> both for the controlling app and for the app that is supposed to get those messages
17:07:46 <Deewiant> A shell script on the other side, Python is the app getting the input
17:08:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tricky, that prevents using unix sockets I guess
17:08:33 <Deewiant> I guess the mkfifo is the easiest way to go on the shell script side
17:08:34 <AnMaster> since, I can't think of a way to do that in shell
17:09:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, and I would assume python abstracts away the horrible interface of select() and similar
17:09:17 <Deewiant> I'm sure it does, but I don't know anything about that so I'll use them directly
17:09:34 <Deewiant> The abstractions are what I was using before, and they close FIFOs :-P
17:09:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and yes, trying to read from a closed fifo won't work
17:10:05 <Deewiant> Surely it's not the "echo foo >> fifo" that kills it?
17:10:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the >> for there
17:10:50 <Deewiant> I mean, can I do "mkfifo fifo; proggy-that-does-clever-polling-or-whatever fifo; echo foo >> fifo; echo bar >> fifo"
17:10:54 <AnMaster> append to the end of the fifo?
17:11:10 <AnMaster> I think >> makes no sense for a fifo :P
17:11:14 <Deewiant> My intuition would be that >> doesn't close it
17:11:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, >> means "append to end of file, instead of truncate file and append to that"
17:11:38 <Deewiant> But if you say so, it's the same as > then
17:12:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, your python process will get an EOF message. so handle that then as "end of message"
17:12:18 <AnMaster> and wait for future stuff to be sent to the fifo
17:12:38 <Deewiant> So if I do select([fd], [], [])
17:12:50 <Deewiant> And then just read a line from the fd
17:13:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try it and see? I don't remember the exact results of that
17:13:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, possibly you will have to open it in non-blocking mode
17:13:31 <AnMaster> The kernel maintains exactly one pipe object for each FIFO special file that is opened by at least one process. The FIFO must be opened on both
17:13:32 <AnMaster> ends (reading and writing) before data can be passed. Normally, opening the FIFO blocks until the other end is opened also.
17:13:41 <AnMaster> A process can open a FIFO in non-blocking mode. In this case, opening for read only will succeed even if no-one has opened on the write side yet,
17:13:41 <AnMaster> opening for write only will fail with ENXIO (no such device or address) unless the other end has already been opened.
17:14:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but yes I think you will get an EOF every time the other end is closed. And?
17:14:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just don't open it read *and* write, because that is implementation defined
17:14:58 <AnMaster> but it isn't what you want to happen I think
17:21:48 <Deewiant> Alright, got it to work, thanks
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17:31:06 <ehird> slept from about 9am-4:30pm
17:32:14 <ehird> 00:45:00 <kwertii> though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex
17:32:41 <Deewiant> He's not been here for about 7 hours
17:35:47 <ehird> anyway, I just want to say that 09:00-16:30 is a wonderful sleep schedule, and everyone should adopt it
17:36:42 <Asztal> I slept from 3am to 5pm :(
17:37:02 <ehird> that can't work well
17:37:43 <Asztal> it didn't really help either
17:38:02 <ehird> i've never felt so good on seven and a half hours of sleep
17:38:05 <Asztal> I either forgot to set my alarm, or it failed to wake me
17:38:41 <Asztal> sometimes I go to bed really tired, and wake up fully refreshed after four hours of sleep... it's perplexing
17:38:43 <ehird> i woke up naturally
17:41:09 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1536576 My first bit of non-trivial Erlang. Whoo.
17:41:30 <ehird> why are you torturing yourself
17:41:41 <ehird> shit, wow, that's verbose
17:41:49 <ehird> that could be like 50 lines of haskell
17:42:07 <pikhq> It's a lot of process spawning.
17:42:24 <pikhq> And explicit recursion.
17:42:30 <ehird> step 1, spawn processes
17:42:34 <ehird> step 3, scalability!
17:43:56 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c0gf/clojure_the_zombiereanimated_corpse_of_lisp/c0c8irt / Yay lisp machines!
17:44:08 <ehird> the loper os guy is making an FPGA flash disk card for one :)
17:46:08 <ehird> gah, now I have to save up
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17:59:57 <ehird> http://www.asciilifeform.com/paralleleye/eye.html / this head mounted display looks awesome
18:00:11 <ehird> 720x280! although monochrom
18:01:29 <ehird> (GregorR: http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/lizzy/pe-hat.html)
18:01:34 <ehird> Hats + head mounted displays!
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18:02:34 <ehird> ("16 red scale, and supposedly looked like a 60″ screen at 5 feet." sweet)
18:06:54 <ehird> grr, current graphic interfaces suck so much
18:07:16 <ehird> i'm going to write a python thingy that lets me do "grid[x,y] = z" as a formula, with variables like frame
18:07:36 <ehird> grid[x,y] = pixels[x,y][frame%2]
18:07:53 <ehird> also, updating in real time, I hate pressing run
18:08:13 <ehird> now how do I embed pygame inside tk
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18:10:41 <pikhq> Always a good answer.
18:13:53 <ehird> ugh, tk is so slow
18:16:05 <ehird> pikhq: do you grok tk?
18:17:32 <pikhq> I may not grok foreign-language bindings thereof, though.
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18:18:56 <ehird> pikhq: first, how can I make typing into the text widget not feel like wading in molasses?
18:19:20 <pikhq> ehird: ... What the *fuck* did you do?
18:19:26 <ehird> Use OS X, probably.
18:19:36 <ehird> The platform that nobody in FOSS gives a royal shit about.
18:19:40 <pikhq> I repeat: what the *fuck* did you do?
18:19:40 <ehird> (But they certainly pander to Windows users.)
18:19:49 <ehird> root = Tkinter.Tk()
18:19:49 <ehird> w = Tkinter.Text(root)
18:20:07 <pikhq> The Tcl/Tk OS X port is written by Apple...
18:20:12 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, it would be quite nice if it recognised ANY of my bindings.
18:20:18 <ehird> Not originally, iirc.
18:20:20 <ehird> They just maintain it.
18:20:27 <ehird> (My bindings = My OS' keybindings.)
18:20:51 <pikhq> So... Tkinter is bad?
18:20:55 <ehird> No, Tkinter is fine.
18:21:02 <ehird> IDLE is fine on non-OS X platforms.
18:21:07 <ehird> On OS X, it's horrible to use
18:21:16 <ehird> In conclusion: Fuuuuuuck you Tk
18:21:24 <pikhq> package require Tk;pack [text .w]
18:21:55 <ehird> Better. Not perfect.
18:22:20 <pikhq> That... Is very weird.
18:22:51 <ehird> Is it so hard for you to comprehend that Tk sucks on OS X? :P
18:22:56 <ehird> I mean, it's horribly non-native, even if it was fast.
18:23:15 <pikhq> I can only conclude that it has gone massively downhill since I last used it.
18:23:24 <ehird> It uses a WHITE BACKGROUND. They fuckin' use the button widgets and couldn't even write one line to change the window background to be OS X's.
18:23:37 <ehird> Oh, and right clicking seems to be "paste" in the text widget.
18:23:46 <ehird> Hmm, only if you select something.
18:23:48 <ehird> It copies it next to it
18:23:49 <pikhq> That is... Quite implausible.
18:23:52 <ehird> Ooh, no, where you click.
18:24:12 <pikhq> Especially when you consider that it just uses Carbon.
18:24:19 <pikhq> (Tcl 8.6 uses Cocoa)
18:24:28 <ehird> pikhq: they implement their own text widget, obviously
18:24:54 <ehird> it's easy to get a decent OS X looking thing up, people just don't care, or think that they're doing us a favour by bringing their obviously superior platform conventions to us
18:25:40 <pikhq> Think you could tell me the version of Tk being used?
18:25:47 <pikhq> (return value of package require Tk)
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18:26:49 <ehird> % package require Tk
18:26:50 <ehird> % % [ehird:~] % which wish
18:26:55 <ehird> /opt/local/bin/wish
18:26:58 <ehird> Woah, that messed up.
18:27:03 <ehird> ok, so I'm using a macports tcl
18:27:12 <ehird> my system tcl is 8.4
18:27:30 <ehird> and is the same, except maybe a little faster
18:28:56 * ehird wonders what he can embed pygame in
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18:29:18 <pikhq> ehird: I strongly suspect Macports is doing something weird.
18:29:29 <ehird> pikhq! Shut up! I tested it with my system Tcl!
18:29:32 <ehird> Tk. Sucks. On. OS. X.
18:29:53 <pikhq> ehird: Except that it doesn't. Except for you.
18:30:26 <ehird> What's your sample?
18:30:50 <ehird> FYI, http://pastie.org/590048.txt?key=wmjzqz4idjslw2inbbh9rg and http://pastie.org/590050.txt?key=4ooj6eeey5vtvrlsy03aq are the portfiles.
18:30:59 <ehird> Protip: They just use the official sources.
18:31:41 <pikhq> Download ActiveTcl. If it still sucks, file a bug report and feel free to execute someone, because that's an epic regression.
18:31:54 <ehird> An epic regression, or I just notice these things more than you
18:32:14 <ehird> Most people who use OS X without actually switching to it... aren't very picky about it.
18:32:26 <ehird> fyi, I tried it in like 2006-2007 too
18:33:19 <ehird> "Make it not suck"
18:33:31 <ehird> ActiveTcl wants me to run an installer package, no doubt to pollute my system directories.
18:33:50 <ehird> It mangles /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework
18:34:00 <ehird> Admittedly, that doesn't exist, but.
18:34:05 <ehird> A lot of files I'd have to clean up
18:36:34 <ehird> Thanks, ActiveTcl; just open a documentation page in my browser without asking.
18:36:47 <ehird> pikhq: gimme the code
18:37:32 <pikhq> package require Tk;pack [text .w]
18:37:59 <ehird> Exactly the frikkin same
18:38:08 <ehird> now what files did this garbage install
18:38:32 <pikhq> Then feel free to say Tk on OS X sucks.
18:38:44 <ehird> now what can I embed pygame into...
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18:40:30 <ehird> there's no way to make them go faster
18:42:56 <ehird> yeah, trackpoints look quite cool though
18:43:03 <ehird> and mice can be good
18:43:52 <ehird> as a diversion, here are the lyrics to a popular song: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/daft%20punk/around%20the%20world_10076007.html
18:44:00 <pikhq> I'm, of course, referring to the common input paradigm that uses mice a lot, called WIMP. ;)
18:44:05 <ehird> kinda hard to figure them out
18:44:08 <ehird> helps to sing along, you know
18:44:33 <ehird> pikhq: "Of course, I meant something totally different."
18:44:48 <pikhq> ehird: Of course, by all that, I meant that your mother is fat.
18:45:11 <ehird> Yo momma so fat they put her in Vista and that's why it takes up over ten gigabytes.
18:46:27 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc :D <-- where is that quote from?
18:46:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, only reason you managed to say that before me was that I was away eating
18:47:39 <ehird> you should give up eating so you always win
18:48:11 <ehird> AnMaster: also, Star Wars.
18:48:29 <ehird> ...as I found when it rung a bell and so took three seconds to google.
18:49:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's almost a darths & droids crossover
18:50:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, nah, he had a star wars theme in IWC too
18:50:40 <AnMaster> was quite a long while ago last time
18:50:50 <oerjan> since the premise of darths & droids is that the roleplayers are in an alternative history where star wars doesn't exist
18:51:37 <oerjan> AnMaster: um this is not a crossover with star wars, this is a crossover with somewhere star wars (movie) doesn't exist
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18:51:56 <ehird> i like how AnMaster "got the joke" without actually getting the joke
18:52:15 <AnMaster> clearly oerjan's connection doesn't work in the shower
18:52:24 <AnMaster> or why else would he quit the computer?
18:52:42 <ehird> Because... he's not here?
18:52:46 <AnMaster> obviously he plans to take computer with him
18:52:54 <AnMaster> so he could just do /away and leave computer on
18:53:10 <AnMaster> but since he took the computer with him, and wlan doesn't work in shower
18:53:22 <AnMaster> ...he has a water proof computer!
18:53:43 <ehird> anyway, I want a lisp machine.
18:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you said that before. A. Few. Times!
18:54:03 <ehird> no, but i mean like
18:54:06 <ehird> not just "oh it'd be lovely to have"
18:54:13 <ehird> i actually want to take actions to direct myself to owning one
18:54:27 <ehird> to muffle the noise i will put a bunch of thick clothes on top of it and then put it in a wardrobe :P
18:54:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so you plan to get that instead of the laptop?
18:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: longer-term than that
18:54:43 <ehird> Who cares about heat?
18:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it will overheat
18:55:09 <ehird> they're so loud the fans must be working hard
18:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, if you block the fans with thick clothes the fan effect will be very low
18:55:40 <AnMaster> actually I suspect the fans are old
18:55:52 <ehird> well, i want a new machine of course, not used
18:55:56 <AnMaster> maybe replacing with modern fans that can shuffle as much air
18:55:57 <ehird> although it'll have been made in the 80s
18:56:10 <AnMaster> before they found out how to make quieter fans
18:56:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll just not cover the exhaust itself
18:56:31 <AnMaster> I assume it radiates some as well
18:57:07 <ehird> http://lh3.ggpht.com/_q3-C8UUljH4/Rj4HReBP2iI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/9bbBBB1kwXM/image5-1.jpg
18:57:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't seen non-metal pc towers in many years no. well, possibly the front is plastic, but the rest is usually metal it seems
18:57:22 <ehird> more appealing picture: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/Symbolics-4.JPG
18:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: well the inside sure
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18:57:59 <ehird> I need to lay off that key
18:58:18 <ehird> they *are* single-user machines
18:58:26 <ehird> the later models were even smaller: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/xl1201x2.jpg
18:58:52 <ehird> but I will never have $3,500 to spend on one of them
18:59:05 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, the 3620's dimensions are
18:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, make surface uneven, slap on an apple logo and you would basically have a ~1995 mac case!
18:59:31 <ehird> AnMaster: 22.86 x 45.72 x 63.5 cm
18:59:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, that is about 150% larger I think
18:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: and it weighs 31.75kg to 181.43kg depending on configuration
19:00:16 <ehird> cofiguration is 4 MWords with a 760 MB of ESDI disk and a 17" monochrome
19:00:16 <ehird> console with keyboard and 3-button mouse. You can add another 760 MB disk
19:00:16 <ehird> for an additional $150. You can add additional memory for $50 per MWord up
19:00:16 <ehird> to a total of 8 MWords. You can upgrade to the 19" premium monochrome
19:00:17 <ehird> monitor for an additional $300. The major problem with all of these
19:00:18 <ehird> machines is disks. They do not have a SCSI bus and use very old ESDI, SMD
19:00:20 <ehird> or ST506 disks. The most disk space you can get on one of them is 1.5 GB,
19:00:24 <ehird> they made the monitors, keyboards and mic
19:00:33 <ehird> (EVERY component of the monitors)
19:00:40 <ehird> but not the plastic used for the keycaps
19:00:46 <ehird> they decided that was just going too far
19:01:00 <ehird> AnMaster: and, I guess the disk for one
19:01:07 <ehird> power supply especially
19:01:21 <ehird> this is an 80s machine
19:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: it uses a royal fuckton
19:01:37 <ehird> (that's bigger than both a metric fuckton and an imperial fucktonne)
19:01:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so... what made the power supplies back then so heavy
19:02:14 <ehird> The C64 is like 100x less powerful
19:02:28 <ehird> but really, it's basically a mainframe innabox
19:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the disk predates SCSI
19:02:43 <ehird> of course it's heavy
19:02:51 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, keyboard and mouse:
19:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, SCSI is an interface standard though
19:03:06 <ehird> Not at the time, AnMaster
19:03:33 <ehird> The main processor had a 36 bit word (divided up as 4 or 8 bits of tags, and 32 bits of data or 28 bits of memory address). Memory words were 44 bits, the additional 8 bits being used for error-correcting code (ECC).
19:03:47 <AnMaster> ehird, but how the disk is constructed inside doesn't depend on SCSI or not
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19:03:54 <ehird> Deewiant: So 3.5 MB
19:04:08 <ehird> We don't call ECC 64-bit memory bigger
19:04:12 <ehird> AnMaster: in other words
19:04:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... An ST506, man.
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19:04:22 <ehird> Deewiant: So 36 bits.
19:04:42 <Deewiant> ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that
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19:04:45 <pikhq> That predates "standard hard drive interface".
19:05:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, um. wikipedia claims ST506 was 5 MB. Yet ehird quoted the system as "up to 1.5 GB" above
19:05:14 <pikhq> Deewiant: ... That's how they work.
19:05:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, that's the maximum addressable.
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19:05:30 <ehird> Deewiant: It uses magic pixie dust to correct the errors
19:05:34 <ehird> pikhq: shut up, it came with more than 5mb
19:05:38 <ehird> it came with like a gig
19:05:57 <ehird> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/keyboard.JPG
19:05:57 <ehird> http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/img/peripheral/kbd/symbolics^mouse.jpg
19:05:59 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that <-- haha
19:06:01 <ehird> except mouse was beige, whatever
19:06:03 <pikhq> I presume it used a hard drive with the ST506 interface, rather than the ST506 hard drive, then.
19:06:11 <ehird> note the fun keys on the keyboard!
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19:06:39 <pikhq> Must've been an expensive SOB.
19:06:48 <ehird> pikhq: In the day, probably about $7k
19:07:26 -!- nooga has joined.
19:07:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The 3640 is more of an acceptable size to you: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Symbolics3640.JPG
19:07:29 <Deewiant> Yes, in retrospect it's rather obvious
19:07:59 <nooga> signal processing guys
19:08:04 <ehird> The keyboard and monitor are resting on top of it. So, yes.
19:08:06 <nooga> how to asses quailty of a random number series?
19:08:22 <ehird> BTW, the Lisp Machines had no memory protection or users, iirc.
19:08:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I want a small lisp machine. I want a LISP phone!
19:08:29 <ehird> They were single-user affairs.
19:08:38 <ehird> So don't go around offering shell accounts...
19:09:23 <ehird> I like how they had CD-ROM drives.
19:09:27 <ehird> My brain doesn't process them as in the same era.
19:09:40 <ehird> Not like they could distribute the gigs of software on floppy...
19:10:14 <nooga> wonder if someone bothered to create a LISP processor using FPGA
19:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: What is there to show?
19:10:28 <AnMaster> if a modern cd fits in a huge 5.whatever" hole
19:10:32 <AnMaster> how large would it have been then
19:10:53 <ehird> Btw, size comparison time.
19:10:56 <ehird> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3%20old%20machines/SMBX_3600_XL_3620-2.JPG
19:10:58 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly the drive should be enormous
19:10:59 <ehird> 3600, XL1200, 3620
19:11:06 <ehird> Look at the fucking SIZE of the 3600!
19:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, they learnt how to use IC around the time of the middle one? ~
19:12:06 <ehird> Can't find a piccy of the cd drive.
19:12:20 <ehird> Grr I hate the MacIvory
19:12:25 <ehird> It's a Mac, dammit!
19:12:30 <ehird> I don't care if it runs the OS.
19:13:20 <ehird> #lisp should buy up Symbolics. :)
19:15:41 <nooga> are there any true random number generators publicly available besides random.org ?
19:16:42 <AnMaster> nooga, don't trust them if you are paranoid!
19:17:25 <pikhq> nooga: A CCD camera.
19:18:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't it, like, all black?
19:18:15 <pikhq> No, there's quantum noise.
19:18:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh ok, not a lot of it I assume?
19:18:41 <pikhq> So, as far as we know, it's at least as random as a geiger counter.
19:19:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: At least enough to be usable as a source of entropy.
19:19:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, since I remember taking all black pictures before, that were actually completely black except at some *statically* slightly off places
19:19:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it's fairly impossible for the hotbits owner to do anything fwiw
19:19:27 <ehird> near impossible at least
19:19:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Specifically, web-cam.
19:20:04 <ehird> that noise is because of quantum?
19:20:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh? I tested with a good camera that was upper-mid-end a few years ago
19:20:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, but you say webcams are more random? how comes?
19:20:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Good cameras tend to try to filter the noise. Webcams don't bother.
19:21:17 <ehird> Anti-quantum particles
19:21:27 <pikhq> Multiple samples, averaging, IIRC.
19:21:41 <ehird> Seriously, wow, fuck that shit, it's due to quantum?
19:21:46 <ehird> Fuuuuuuuuck that shit.
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19:22:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, wait, so it samples multiple times both when taking a 1/1000 exposure and when taking a 30 second one?
19:22:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, I can't see how it can get enough light though for it
19:23:42 <nooga> i need source of good quailty random numbers for many machines
19:24:04 <pikhq> As an alternate explanation, I'm full of shit.
19:24:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, about the quantum noise too?
19:24:42 <pikhq> No, no. Just how good-quality cameras don't show that as much.
19:25:01 <pikhq> ... Good-quality. My English sucks today.
19:26:52 <nooga> the thing is that i need a noise that resembles natural noise in light transport ;p
19:27:46 <nooga> take a light source that emits uniform white light in every direction
19:28:17 <nooga> it emits photons in random directions and energies
19:28:32 <nooga> with random energies*
19:28:58 <nooga> i need to simulate that
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19:29:07 <nooga> and pseudo-random numbers give stupid patterns
19:29:14 <nooga> and all that shit looks unnatural
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19:29:31 <AnMaster> nooga, sounds like a bad PRNG there
19:30:16 <nooga> if you shoot like, uh, 3000 000 000 photons, every PRNG will give patterns
19:30:17 <AnMaster> nooga, try using that to create a seed. then using a good prng
19:30:37 <AnMaster> nooga, are you doing ray tracing with like 3000 000 000 photons?
19:31:03 <AnMaster> and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source
19:31:09 <nooga> yes, forward, physically based raytracing
19:31:16 <AnMaster> try that "one million random numbers" book
19:31:20 <AnMaster> nooga, that will be super-slow
19:31:28 <AnMaster> with that number of photons I mean
19:31:30 <nooga> my raytracer traces photons FROM the lights TO the sensor
19:31:39 <nooga> it's fucking damn slow
19:31:47 <AnMaster> nooga, and it will be nearly white?
19:32:12 <nooga> what will be nearly whitye?
19:33:13 <ehird> [19:31] AnMaster: and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source
19:33:20 <nooga> therefore i need a "supercomputer", i'd like to be able to distribute the process
19:33:34 <ehird> oh no, not this "LOL AUTOMATIC DISTRBUTE ACROSS ITNERWEB" from nooga
19:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked, there are limits on the web forms
19:34:07 <AnMaster> you can however send a special request it seems
19:34:12 <AnMaster> not sure what the size limit is then
19:34:13 <ehird> ...so use /dev/random
19:34:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, that will be fast eh?
19:34:31 <ehird> raytracing "3000 000 000 photons"
19:34:35 <ehird> is going to be fast anyway
19:34:46 <nooga> ehird: stop blabbering, rendering is the easiest process to distribute: give each slave a source description and tell them: each one of you must trace n photons, collect results from the slaves
19:34:47 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but /dev/random will be slower
19:35:02 <ehird> nooga: over the internet. automatically.
19:35:13 <nooga> you've got scene rendered with n*(slave count) photons
19:35:30 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it could theoretically work over the Internet. ... As a BOINC app.
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19:35:47 <ehird> pikhq: Manually written.
19:35:47 <nooga> it would work as a boinc app
19:35:56 <nooga> OF COURSE MANUALLY WRITTEN!@
19:35:57 <ehird> pikhq: And way, way slower than gigabit ethernet.
19:35:58 <pikhq> Of course, that requires splitting it into autonomous processes.
19:36:02 <ehird> By hundreds of billions of years.
19:36:14 <ehird> pikhq: Tell that to nooga.
19:36:25 <nooga> i never thought that computer will magically turn my raytracer program into parallel system
19:36:36 <pikhq> And by the time you've got it split into autonomous processes, parallelism is kinda... Trivial.
19:37:06 <pikhq> "Few lines of shell" kinda trivial. :)
19:37:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc ray-tracing is extremely parallel
19:37:11 <ehird> vvvvvvvvvv18 people 18 people 18 people
19:37:21 <ehird> raytracing is embarrasginly parallel
19:37:34 <nooga> i understand all that
19:37:37 <AnMaster> but forward ray trace is kind of silly iirc
19:37:43 <ehird> unfortunately nobody has a shitload of processors :P
19:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, get a shitload of FPGAs
19:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: one fpga runs you about $100
19:38:09 <pikhq> ehird: Most people have shitloads of processors. It's called a "graphics card".
19:38:12 <nooga> AnMaster: but it gives results closest to a taking photo
19:38:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed it would be cheap!
19:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it's probably cheaper to buy a bunch of commodity systems.
19:38:36 <AnMaster> ehird, but even one FPGA can do better than a CPU.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Of course, to use that, you need to write it as a CUDA app.
19:38:45 <ehird> pikhq: or OpenCL, for ati
19:38:49 <ehird> well and nvidia too
19:38:55 <ehird> AnMaster: but the work of one ray-tracing atom is trivial
19:39:01 <ehird> you could do it at 10mhz, prolly
19:39:20 <AnMaster> ehird, there are FPGAs close to 100 MHz iirc?
19:39:31 <ehird> I'm saying you don't need speed.
19:39:38 <ehird> So whether the FPGAs are fast or not is irrelevant.
19:39:40 <pikhq> You just need parallelism.
19:39:47 <ehird> All you need is a shitload of processors of just about any speed.
19:40:04 <nooga> ehird: tbh, my program could run parallel even now. i'd need to distribute copies of it with a scene description and ask users to send results of rendering using some small numbers of photons to me and then add the results
19:40:22 <nooga> and i'd be faster than rendering on one machine
19:40:53 <pikhq> ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth?
19:41:18 <nooga> what i want to do is write a little utility that'd automatically send scene descriptions and collect the results
19:41:29 <nooga> AND THERE'S NO WORD ABOUT AUTOMATIC PARALLELISM
19:42:34 <pikhq> So, what you want to do is reïmplement BOINC.
19:42:50 <pikhq> That's dumb; BOINC's not hard to write for.
19:43:19 <pikhq> Well, except that it's C. :P
19:43:23 <nooga> but you have to make ppl join your project
19:43:38 <ehird> ...as opposed to computing without their consent
19:43:46 <ehird> So do you not ACTUALLY have these machines?
19:44:11 <nooga> i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses
19:44:23 <ehird> Congrats; you're an immoral asshole.
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19:44:34 <nooga> it's just an experiment
19:44:42 <AnMaster> <pikhq> ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth? <-- yep
19:44:42 <ehird> I want to strangle you. For being stupid, y'see.
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19:44:51 <ehird> Anyone care to join me?
19:44:55 <pikhq> nooga: That's called "botnet".
19:44:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, local caches and such is very important iirc
19:45:02 <nooga> pikhq: i know, and?
19:45:08 <pikhq> And yes, that makes you an immoral asshole.
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19:45:32 <ehird> nooga: I wish a thousand viruses upon your computer.
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19:45:51 <AnMaster> I assume you are joking nooga?
19:45:58 <pikhq> nooga: I wish all the viruses upon your computer.
19:45:59 <ehird> AnMaster: has he ever joked about something so stupid? no
19:46:09 <ehird> I like how nooga thinks OS X can't possibly have any bugs.
19:46:26 <nooga> but there are not many viruses for os x
19:46:37 <ehird> I hope nooga does infect the computers; then I can get him arrested and we won't have to deal with him any more.
19:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, hm yeah a botnet is rather stupid
19:47:03 <nooga> nooga: i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses << tbh, firstly i'd ask several friends to help me
19:47:10 <ehird> He actually thinks that making a botnet out of computers near him to do the computation he wants to do is not immoral.
19:47:13 <nooga> or even some scientists on my university
19:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as you know by now, I tend to use "rather" before the adjectives like "stupid" and "silly"!
19:47:21 <nooga> we have cool clusters there
19:47:47 <ehird> AnMaster: <nooga> I just murdered someone <AnMaster> Hm, that's rather bad
19:48:09 <ehird> That's putting it too strongly
19:48:12 <ehird> He might get offended
19:48:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you think so? Maybe "not very nice" would be better?
19:48:42 <ehird> AnMaster: "Well, if you think you did the right thing..." might work
19:49:04 <AnMaster> ehird, if it was in self defence?
19:49:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes; I was probably trying to kill him for being an idiot.
19:49:40 <nooga> probably my botnet would fail because i don't know how to write malicious software
19:49:46 <nooga> especially for windows
19:50:00 <nooga> it's only athought
19:50:03 <ehird> And the only thing stopping me from murdering is that I'm weak.
19:50:09 <ehird> Yay fun moral system!
19:50:13 <nooga> if i were christian i could go to church and confess
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19:50:56 <nooga> your parser is broken sir
19:51:03 <AnMaster> err, isn't that only for Catholics or such?
19:51:19 <ehird> isn't poland like 99% catholic
19:51:36 <nooga> and i'm in that 1%
19:51:52 <AnMaster> so there are 99 other people in Poland then?
19:52:08 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Poland
19:52:12 <ehird> They actually poured water over ALL OF POLAND
19:52:35 <ehird> no, it's a SKY FLOOD
19:52:54 <nooga> what's with _why ?
19:53:07 <ehird> I dunno; I'll look into my crystal ball!
19:53:13 <ehird> Oh wait, it's a magic 8 wait I've said this before.
19:53:22 <nooga> the part before ';' would do
19:53:31 <AnMaster> didn't you ask yesterday nooga ?
19:53:54 <ehird> Zed Shaw posted to his blog calling _why Jonathan, which I made two posts rebutting. bah.
19:53:56 <nooga> AnMaster: maybe something changed
19:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: rich from you
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19:55:22 <AnMaster> ehird, googled idiom but can't find definition
19:55:43 <ehird> "You're a hypocrite", basically.
19:58:09 <nooga> try to google "why"
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19:59:08 <ehird> "why the lucky stiff".
20:06:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
20:07:33 <ehird> did you know that whitehouse.gov used to use lisp machines?
20:07:36 <ehird> not for the main site, but.
20:09:40 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20000301193429/www.pub.whitehouse.gov/WH/Publications/html/Publications.html
20:09:46 <ehird> pub.whitehouse.gov ran on one
20:10:41 <ehird> why heh, it's awesome :(
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20:11:06 <ehird> do you srsly question everything? i read it, i'm sure of it, end of
20:11:14 <ehird> i have no reason to lie
20:11:17 <ehird> google it if you care
20:11:26 <AnMaster> reliable source and all that ;P
20:11:43 <ehird> you assume that i give a shit if you believe me or not
20:11:53 <AnMaster> "(The LispM that served www.pub.whitehouse.gov sadly disappeared in january 2001 when Prez Bush replaced Prez Clinton)"
20:12:10 <ehird> hmm, apparently a high-end macivory lisp machine cost about $50,000 in 1991
20:12:37 <nooga> maybe it's time to reinvent lisp machines
20:12:53 <ehird> that's what i'm doing
20:13:02 <pikhq> ehird: So, I guess *that's* why Symbolics went out of business? Exceptionally expensive workstations? ;)
20:13:13 <ehird> nope, symbolics did fine
20:13:17 <ehird> but nobody wanted a lisp machine
20:13:33 <pikhq> ... At a time that people figured "Eh, x86 is good enough."
20:13:36 <ehird> besides, they still exist and sell things, albeit slowly :P
20:13:43 <ehird> pikhq: I'll tell you what happened
20:13:51 <ehird> The explosion of unix happened
20:13:52 <nooga> are there moderl lisp processors?
20:13:56 <pikhq> Dammit, Microsoft.
20:13:59 <ehird> nooga: no. not apart from fpgas
20:14:30 * pikhq would like a Haskell machine
20:14:32 <nooga> creating an industrial matrix for a processor is a bit expensive
20:15:00 <ehird> ASICs aren't woefully expensive
20:15:03 <ehird> if you have a market
20:15:08 <ehird> symbolics had their own fab, though
20:15:13 <ehird> god damn they had money
20:15:57 <pikhq> The fact that they actually *sold* any machines that cost $50,000 implies that they had money. ;)
20:16:12 <ehird> i just can't comprehend that they made their monitors themselves
20:16:23 <ehird> i think they basically relied on no other companies
20:16:27 <ehird> for anything important at least
20:16:33 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Symbolics-document-examiner.png / genera had very nice fonts
20:16:44 <ehird> the font in the Document Examiner window is really readable
20:16:46 <ehird> even when not anti-aliased
20:16:51 <AnMaster> I mean, they could have managed way better if they had relied on other companies
20:16:53 <ehird> AnMaster: but the displays were high-quality
20:16:54 <nooga> 1024 x 867 in 80's
20:16:57 <ehird> AnMaster: and no, they couldn't have
20:17:00 <nooga> that was something
20:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, maybe I'm just wishful
20:17:21 <ehird> i mean, hardware was pretty crap in those days
20:17:29 <ehird> but if you bought a symbolics machine, you're done
20:17:29 <pikhq> ehird: That is a *much* better UI than you'd expect for the era.
20:17:36 <ehird> pikhq: it's pretty much system-wide emacs
20:17:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the font is readable because it avoids lines in directions that look bad
20:17:45 <ehird> it's a very well-designed font
20:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there are some issues in the bold italics bit
20:17:55 <ehird> that's not the same font
20:18:09 <ehird> AnMaster: remember that CRTs blur a bit, though
20:18:20 <ehird> (I wonder if you could hook up an LCD to a symbolics machine?)
20:18:40 <ehird> pikhq: but yes, the windowing system was great from what I hear
20:18:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I never got opengenera thingy working :/
20:18:54 <ehird> pikhq: I've read the boot up source of the OS
20:18:56 <AnMaster> I got it up to the enter site settings thing
20:18:56 <ehird> it's written in lisp
20:19:09 <AnMaster> ehird, but never got the site setting things to save properly
20:19:38 <nooga> ehird: where is that source?
20:19:52 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp
20:19:58 <ehird> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
20:19:58 <ehird> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
20:20:02 <ehird> dkschmidt is the remaining symbolics guy
20:20:26 <ehird> Symbolics were like Macs done right, I think
20:20:35 <ehird> You bought them and got everything you needed, extremely high quality
20:20:38 <ehird> and yet they were totally open
20:20:43 <ehird> you could modify the whole system
20:21:06 <pikhq> Because that's just Lisp for you.
20:21:35 <ehird> I hope asciilifeform open sources his FPGA flash disk card
20:21:37 <nooga> how much does a lisp machine cost nowadays?
20:21:43 <ehird> nooga: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
20:21:59 <ehird> nooga: don't get a macivory; they're macs with a lisp expansion board
20:22:04 <ehird> not nearly cool enough
20:22:14 <ehird> asciilifeform/loper os guy is getting a 3620
20:22:25 <ehird> nooga: MacIvory, they're Symbolics machines;
20:22:31 <ehird> basically mac + Lisp processor expansion board
20:22:33 <ehird> but that's uber-lam
20:22:39 <nooga> uhuh, i can imagine
20:22:47 <ehird> some info from the guy
20:22:48 <ehird> [[The machine is equipped with dual 380MB disks (each with full OS install) and 4 MWord of RAM. The manual rates the power supply for 1KW max draw / 400W typical. The latter is much the same as my desktop PC. Noise is not a concern: I do not intend to run it 24/7. I expect the power consumption to fall by ~100W after the flash disk is in.]]
20:24:46 <nooga> they had 64-bit word in 80's
20:25:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ok about heavy power suplies!
20:25:27 <ehird> 1KW is what really high end gaming PCs use, AnMaster
20:25:32 <nooga> ehird: because your parents pay the bills
20:25:34 <ehird> Lisp Machines use that at peak
20:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes; not all that many machines actually use 1KW, but there are some.
20:25:57 <ehird> Think triple graphics card + overclocked CPU
20:26:05 <ehird> (quad-core, naturally)
20:26:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was like 600W peak on high end power supplies?
20:26:29 <ehird> Most consumer power supplies are like 400W
20:26:32 <ehird> Most brand-name are like 700W
20:26:52 <pikhq> You can purchase 1KW, but they cost a bit.
20:27:15 <pikhq> And it's not unheard of to have a 2 power supply system. Just... rather rare.
20:27:38 <nooga> http://www.symbolics.com/ << what can I say, they have a pretty logo
20:27:42 <ehird> it's not at all uncommon
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20:28:02 <nooga> for a company that sells it's products for 50k
20:28:12 <ehird> when they were new
20:28:20 <ehird> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt are modern prices
20:28:22 <nooga> that's what i mean
20:28:35 <AnMaster> what about laptop power supplies?
20:28:44 <AnMaster> aren't they like 70 W or so? iirc?
20:28:47 <ehird> AnMaster: they're external
20:28:51 <ehird> laptops use very little power
20:29:01 <nooga> mac mini it 110W at peak AFAIR :D
20:29:08 <ehird> mac mini idles at 13watt
20:29:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what about that 17"+10" one? ;P
20:29:18 <ehird> AnMaster: like 34958734953489789794835793457watt
20:29:22 <ehird> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3468
20:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, my laptop idles at 8.6 W iirc
20:30:01 <AnMaster> around 9.1 W when disk is spinning
20:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, tested with powertop, not sure how accurate that is
20:30:26 <AnMaster> ehird, since it asks ACPI for the info
20:31:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you think it is high or low?
20:31:27 <AnMaster> ehird, was 20% brightness on display though
20:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I was basically just testing how low I could get it
20:32:07 <AnMaster> when in usable mode with wlan off, around 9.8W with disk spinning
20:32:32 <AnMaster> wlan causes a lot of wakeups when searching for networks if it isn't connected to any
20:34:09 <nooga> http://fun.noshit.pl/DIR-2009.08.20/fnp7.jpg << first exercise ;D
20:35:33 <AnMaster> nooga, you think we can read that?
20:35:55 <nooga> it's phonetic Polish for americans i suppose
20:35:57 <Deewiant> Asztal: Hey, why no asztal.net
20:37:15 <nooga> "Przepraszam, czy można przymierzyć?" is the first line lol
20:37:25 <nooga> deciphering that took me 2 minutes
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20:39:09 <ehird> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112003322&ft=1&f=1001 / wtf, I thought we stopped using physical objects to define units
20:40:55 <Deewiant> We did; turns out that the kilogram is tricky
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20:42:01 <ehird> Also, nevermind is totally a word. Just ask Nirvana.
20:43:32 <nooga> wonder if wolframalpha knows
20:43:48 <pikhq> Why can't it be defined in terms of Planck units?
20:44:02 <pikhq> (aside from that being potentially absurdly hard to measure)
20:44:08 <ehird> `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck units
20:44:20 <pikhq> `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck mass
20:44:21 <ehird> <W|A> One bacon in planck times per meters minus squared
20:44:28 <HackEgo> 1 kilogram in planck mass \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 kg kilogram to Planck masses \ Result: \ \ 4.595 107 mP Planck masses \ Additional conversion: \ \ 1000 grams \ Interpretation: \ \ mass \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Weight w of a body from w 2.2 lbf pounds force 0.069 slugf slugs force 9.8 N newtons
20:44:34 <ehird> See, that was easy.
20:45:04 <nooga> but planck mass is defined using grams
20:45:10 <Slereah> `wolfram 1 yottaparsec in planck length
20:45:16 <HackEgo> 1 yottaparsec in planck length \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 Y yotta \ Result: \ \ pc parsec to Planck lengths \ \ 1.909 1075 lP Planck lengths \ Additional conversions: 37 \ \ 1.917 10 miles \ \ Interpretation: \ \ length \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Light travel time t in vacuum from t 3.264 1024 years
20:45:24 <nooga> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=planck+mass CTO
20:45:33 <nooga> where's definition using constants?
20:45:48 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_mass here
20:45:49 <ehird> from a guy who uses a 3620: "Most people will WANT to put the machine in a separate room. It is LOUD"
20:46:01 <Slereah> nooga : Planck mass is when the Schwartzchild radius and the compton wavelength are the same
20:46:03 <ehird> How loud is this thing xD
20:46:12 <pikhq> It is defined in terms of units defined such that G, h, c, 1/(4\pi\epsilon_0), and k_b are 1.
20:46:29 <Sgeo_> If I were more awake, I'd say something that ehird would take notice of.
20:46:56 * Sgeo_ has, next to him, his copy of The Age of Spiritual Machines
20:47:06 <pikhq> So, m_p = \sqrt{hc/G}
20:47:17 <ehird> Ah, Kurzweil's I-don't-wanna-die masterpiece.
20:47:25 <Slereah> It's something like 8 micrograms IIRC
20:47:35 <Slereah> `wolfram planck mass in gram
20:47:39 <Sgeo_> It has predictions for 2009
20:47:40 <ehird> Surely you want an updated version, where he amends the dates to be actually in the future, but still within his expected lifetime?
20:47:42 <HackEgo> planck mass in gram \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 mP Planck mass to grams \ Result: \ \ 2.176 10 \ \ 5 \ \ grams \ \ Additional conversions: \ \ 21.76 µg micrograms \ Comparisons as mass: \ \ 0.01 \ Interpretation: \ \ 1 69 \ \ mass of a typical mosquito \ \ 1 10 \ \ 6 \ \ kg \ \ mass \ Corresponding
20:47:43 <pikhq> Slereah: ~2*10^-8 kg.
20:47:58 <ehird> The last edition will predict that the singularity will happen tomorrow; the day after, he'll be dead.
20:48:34 <Sgeo_> As far as I'm conserned, there's nothing wrong with hoping he turns out to be right.
20:48:56 <ehird> There's nothing wrong with hoping that there's a God who loves us all and takes us to heaven and gives us eternal joy forever.
20:48:56 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Yeah, but you admit it's a hope.
20:49:04 <ehird> It's still irrational.
20:49:17 <ehird> A better way to have hope is to actually work on making the world a better place.
20:49:20 <Sgeo_> ehird, I hope that too, even though I don't believe that there is.
20:49:30 <ehird> I hope that I will have a pony in three seconds.
20:50:09 <ehird> I wonder if symbolics hired a typographer to design their fonst
20:50:10 <nooga> ehird: get back to reinventing lisp machines
20:50:28 <Sgeo_> He did get some predictions right, or rightish >.>. But still, a lot were wrong
20:50:30 <nooga> even you could design bitmap font
20:50:39 <Sgeo_> Want me to post some of them?
20:50:40 <ehird> nooga: Fuck you, typography is awesome
20:50:57 <ehird> Sgeo_: uri geller has been right about some football games too
20:51:28 <pikhq> Something else that would be nice: just arbitrarily define the Avogadro constant. Voila, kilogram in terms of the mass of ^{12}C.
20:52:00 <Sgeo_> "People typically have at least a dozen computers on and around their bodies, which are networked using "body LANs (local area networks)."
20:52:17 <ehird> This is some new definition of "true".
20:52:31 <Sgeo_> ehird, I wasn't posting an example of what he got right.
20:52:34 <pikhq> That's not going to be common for another 5 to 10 years.
20:52:40 <ehird> pikhq: Why a dozen?
20:52:43 <ehird> We don't need a dozen.
20:52:53 <ehird> We don't need "body LANs"; we have the internet.
20:53:10 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Q0dfrbr10 nice one
20:53:23 <pikhq> ehird: Fair point.
20:53:34 <pikhq> Though a "body LAN" could carry TCP/IP, et viola.
20:53:38 <ehird> In fact, what he's talking about is 80s thinking.
20:53:41 <Sgeo_> He got this at least half-right: "Computers routinely include moving picture image cameras and are able to reliably identify their owners from their faces."
20:53:47 <ehird> You can't imagine a global network of everyone; that can't possibly work.
20:53:51 <ehird> Sgeo_: they cannot really do the latter
20:54:01 <ehird> pikhq: You can't imagine one all-powerful computer.
20:54:01 <Sgeo_> That's why I said half-right
20:54:05 <ehird> Of course we need specialised ones.
20:55:11 <Sgeo_> I'm going to be random about what I'm posting. They're generally going to either be somewhat right or so dead wrong it's hilarious.
20:55:16 <pikhq> Facial recognition is inherently heuristic (and therefore at least somewhat unreliable)...
20:56:00 <Sgeo_> "The majority of text is created using continuous speech recognition (CSR) dictation software, but keyboards are still used."
20:56:13 <ehird> I'm better at typing than speaking.
20:56:17 <ehird> More accurate, no trips, ...
20:56:31 <ehird> The extra speed of speech comes at a great cost.
20:56:41 <ehird> See, that sort of thinking is typical "future!".
20:56:45 <ehird> It's different, and we can't do it now.
20:56:50 <ehird> Therefore, it must be something that we will do in the future.
20:56:57 <ehird> Never is "maybe it's actually not better" considered.
20:57:00 * Sgeo_ doesn't want to try to imagine programming via CSR
20:57:49 <Sgeo_> My dad swears by it, though. >.>
20:57:56 <ehird> Is your dad a programmer?
20:58:30 <Sgeo_> The way he treats me sometimes, I'd think not.
20:58:53 <ehird> woo, dysfunctional families \o/
20:59:05 <Sgeo_> It's not like he's physically abusive, at least
20:59:24 <ehird> Well that's all right then
20:59:28 <Sgeo_> Or trying to stop me from going to college.. wait, actually, he kind of did in 2007
20:59:41 <ehird> "Durn kids and their, uhh education"
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20:59:57 <Sgeo_> He wanted me to go to college, just.. later, I think
21:00:05 <Sgeo_> After I went to Israel for a while
21:00:46 <Sgeo_> This family is Jewish. I don't consider myself Jewish religion-wise
21:01:07 <ehird> I rather think that with Israel's actions, it would do the opposite of making me Jewish
21:02:05 <Sgeo_> Apparently, there's some program in Israel that my dad and step-mom thought would help "make me normal" or something.
21:03:01 <ehird> Not an evil atheist or something? :P
21:03:06 <ehird> nooga: It's spelt with a z.
21:03:09 <ehird> But yes, zionism is stupid.
21:03:22 <Sgeo_> ehird, not that. They seem convinced that I couldn't live on my own, and had no responsibility.
21:03:36 <ehird> my mother thinks that :P
21:03:42 <ehird> (but she's probably right)
21:04:49 <ehird> "$10 in Pennies is worth $18.05 if you melt them down for the copper."
21:04:56 <ehird> ...do you think you could repeat this process?
21:05:09 <ehird> "That's not actually quite correct. $10 worth of 1909-1982 Lincoln copper pennies is worth $18.05 while $10 worth of 1982-2009 Lincoln zinc pennies is worth only $4.71. Thanks for the link though. +1"
21:05:10 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Y'know the way to fix that? Move out.
21:05:26 <ehird> i want to move out, it sounds like hella fun
21:05:43 <pikhq> ehird: It is. It is also a PITA.
21:05:50 <Sgeo_> pikhq, my dad has an apartment, but isn't letting me move there yet. He doesn't want the apartment ruined if I fail to clean.
21:06:09 <Sgeo_> I mentioned moving out on my own, and he said he'd cut off all support.
21:06:35 <ehird> Sgeo_: sounds like your family sucks
21:06:53 <nooga> get a well paid job in IT or something
21:07:01 <nooga> find a small apartament
21:07:05 <ehird> working in IT is hell
21:07:09 <ehird> from what i gather.
21:07:13 <ehird> on symbolics lisp machine: "The old systems have a special console. No VGA"
21:07:17 <nooga> buy food, pay rent and bills, party party party
21:07:29 <ehird> would be nice to hook up an lcd.
21:07:31 <nooga> ehird: working is hell
21:07:39 <ehird> nooga: but sometimes moreso than others
21:07:47 <pikhq> ehird: I work in IT.
21:07:54 <nooga> like, uh, porting MFC parts to OS X because someone orders you to do it
21:08:20 <ehird> pikhq: yeah but your job is awesome (sample size: 1)
21:08:28 <pikhq> ehird: Indeed, it is.
21:08:34 <ehird> AnMaster: analog and shit
21:08:40 <Sgeo_> I think I'm misunderstanding what MFC is. Isn't it the API provided by Windows for GUIs and stuff?
21:08:44 <Sgeo_> How do you port that?
21:08:48 <ehird> Sgeo_: For general stuff
21:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well and? There are VGA<->DVI adapters
21:08:53 <pikhq> You reimplement it.
21:08:58 <nooga> file support, strings, dates and such
21:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: brb, sytnthesizing a pony
21:09:03 <AnMaster> ehird, just may require some knowledge of what you are doing
21:09:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: DVI cables can carry VGA signals directly on the wire.
21:09:28 <nooga> i have all *.h files from MFC and i'm implementing the classes so that they comply their interfaces
21:09:35 <Sgeo_> Isn't there a thing to get WINE working in OS X?
21:09:35 <ehird> it seems Genera had no web browser
21:09:41 <ehird> Sgeo_: wine supports os x
21:09:49 <ehird> but he means iphone
21:09:57 <ehird> also objective c stuff too
21:09:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, but I have seen converts to DVI-I or whatever it was called
21:10:00 <nooga> OS X is the first stage
21:10:08 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Until the x86 port of OS X, it was kinda useless without qemu, but yes.
21:10:09 <nooga> and then hopefully it would run on gayphone
21:10:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, ehird, so you basically figure out the electrical "protocol" of the analogue signal.
21:10:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Nontrivial, but doable.
21:10:41 <nooga> ehird: get yourself an oscilloscope
21:10:44 <Sgeo_> Must be fun, knowing that you're duplicating WINE's efforts, just so you can have what's basically WINE on iPhone
21:10:50 <ehird> AnMaster: dude, shut up.
21:10:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed, then you build a digital circuit to convert it to a digital signal
21:11:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, there are A/D converters after all
21:11:13 <nooga> Sgeo_: ah, i'm reimplementing a minimal subset used by a specific library
21:11:13 <Sgeo_> Well, a subset of WINE on iPhone, then?
21:11:18 <AnMaster> then you process that to render a picture, and re-emit it using display-port
21:11:21 <pikhq> Sgeo_: MFC is a thick, thick wrapper on top of Win32.
21:11:24 <nooga> it's still simpler than reimplementing the library
21:11:29 <ehird> AnMaster: jesus christ shut up
21:11:52 <pikhq> Though by that notion, Qt is a thick, thick wrapper on top of X11. So... :P
21:11:53 <ehird> http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Machine%20Videos
21:12:04 <ehird> ^__________^ lisp machine videooooooos
21:12:13 <ehird> oh lame not actually vids
21:12:32 <ehird> such a pretty interface
21:12:35 <ehird> 1-bit at its finest
21:12:40 <nooga> screen capture on lispm?
21:12:54 <Sgeo_> I've never actually seen a Lisp machine before
21:12:57 <AnMaster> http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/genera.jpg <-- physical NMI? :D
21:15:25 <pikhq> Sgeo_: ZLisp Emacs.
21:17:39 <pikhq> ehird: Non-maskable interrupt.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you shouldn't be allowed to get a LISP machine. AND you are a hypocrite... who can't google
21:18:03 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
21:18:07 <ehird> national microelectronics institute
21:18:10 <ehird> national measurement institute
21:18:12 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi+computer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
21:18:20 <ehird> non-maskable interrupt
21:18:30 <AnMaster> ehird, try adding the word "computer"
21:18:38 <ehird> but sure, I shouldn't be allowed tog et a lisp machine because i didn't know one term
21:18:39 <AnMaster> which gets non-maskable interrupt at top
21:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone geek should know NMI
21:19:16 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it
21:19:23 <ehird> so i'm not a geek by your definition, that's okay, i don't give a shit about what you think
21:19:29 <ehird> i'm such an ungeek who doesn't know one acronym!
21:19:55 <pikhq> ehird: Turn in your geek license.
21:20:06 <ehird> jesus fucking christ
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21:20:13 <Sgeo_> "Computer displays built into eyeglasses are also used. These specialized glasses allow users to see the normal visual environment, while creating a virtual image that appears to hover in front of the viewer. The virtual images are created directly onto the user's retinas."
21:20:20 <pikhq> ... Ehird has no sense of humor.
21:21:16 <nooga> that Lisp Machines are so fucking über cool
21:22:59 <Sgeo_> "Translating Telephone technology (where you speak in English and your Japenese friend hears you in Japanese, and vice versa) is commonly used for many language pairs. It is a routine capability of an individual's personal computer, which also serves as her phone."
21:24:18 <nooga> then who was phone
21:25:11 <Sgeo_> nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
21:25:20 <nooga> AnMaster: ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it << ehird's plan is not to write kernel
21:25:37 <nooga> he wants a kernel without kernel
21:25:46 <AnMaster> but everyone that wrote an OS would know about interrupts
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21:29:19 <Sgeo_> o.O didn't realize ehird wasn't here
21:31:15 <ehird> "The total cost was around $750, including the PayPal surcharge. Note that the purchase also included a "New Type" keyboard."
21:32:14 <nooga> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Lasse-Rasinen/IMG_0716.JPG
21:33:45 <nooga> http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Hannu-Koivistos-machines/symbolics-2-001.jpg < capacitors?
21:34:14 <ehird> it looks so different from a modern computer
21:35:37 * Sgeo_ re-watches Space Mutiny
21:36:16 <nooga> gui looks pretty clever on those films
21:37:27 <AnMaster> nooga, having to go through menu to move or resize window seems like a pain
21:37:34 <pikhq> ehird: "Turn in your geek license" is a joke, BTW.
21:37:49 <ehird> click, swipe, click
21:38:00 <nooga> AnMaster: oh, with minor changes it would be very usable
21:38:10 <ehird> minor changes? why?
21:38:21 <nooga> like adding title bars to windows
21:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird, err how did you open menu then
21:38:31 <nooga> or at least X buttons
21:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: right click
21:38:42 <pikhq> nooga... It's an Emacs-like interface.
21:38:51 <nooga> i liked vim better
21:38:54 <ehird> AnMaster: "click, swipe, click"
21:39:00 <ehird> menu, swipe, choose
21:39:02 <ehird> pikhq: it isn't tiling
21:39:06 <ehird> but it can float too
21:39:25 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) click to open menu, click to select resize, move mouse to where you want it to be resized, click to select that point
21:39:37 <ehird> plan 9 uses the same interface
21:39:40 <ehird> it is perfectly usable
21:39:52 <ehird> it's better since you can move and resize in one click
21:40:14 <ehird> AnMaster: choose resize, click at starting point, drag at end point
21:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, and very often I only want to move *or* resize
21:40:32 <ehird> so use tiling or patch the OS or STFU
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21:41:50 <Sgeo_> You know what strikes me as "It sounds cool, so it will be the future"? The idea of a 3d web.
21:42:02 <ehird> a very horrible idea
21:42:36 <Sgeo_> Things like SL are fun, but to force 3d to browse for information, and shopping? I see maybe utility for showing what a product might look like, but walking down a hall to shop?
21:42:48 <Sgeo_> There's a reason that SL has a very 2d Xstreet SL
21:43:00 <ehird> navigation is crap
21:43:05 <ehird> we have to in the physical world
21:43:08 <ehird> but hypertext is such a better model
21:43:15 <ehird> space shouldn't exist
21:43:29 <ehird> things are harder to get to because they just are, not for any reason
21:45:03 <Sgeo_> Come to think of it, it would be on the same level as fighting monsters that guard the information you want. It's extending entertainment in such a way that it blocks productive use.
21:45:06 <AnMaster> I can think of some reasons why 3D is a bad idea
21:45:17 <ehird> you and everyone else
21:45:30 <AnMaster> just think of a 3D game, and a 2D game. Which is easiest to keep track of where you are in
21:45:47 <ehird> 2d is just as bad.
21:45:50 <AnMaster> more than once in a third person shooter style game I managed to loose what direction I was looking in
21:46:03 <AnMaster> ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things
21:46:11 <ehird> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES
21:46:19 <AnMaster> in 3D things are hidden behind other stuff
21:46:28 <ehird> WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES
21:46:43 <AnMaster> I was just using it as an analogy
21:46:55 <Sgeo_> A 3d web is like taking a game and forcing people who want information to play it.
21:46:56 <ehird> the whole point is that games are a bad analogy
21:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no, about "hidden behind" I'm talking about navigation
21:47:04 <AnMaster> not talking about games at all
21:48:23 <AnMaster> ehird, in a 2D web page, all things are at one layer by default. Sure you can add image over text. Tends to be a sign of bad CSS in most cases. And image below text, which can be more ok (background image). But still fairly limited to a few layers
21:48:31 <AnMaster> while this is not true for a 3D web
21:48:33 <ehird> jkldfjlkdsfjkdslfjkldsf you are missing the point _entirely_
21:48:45 <AnMaster> where things are intrinsically behind each other
21:48:47 <ehird> hypertext, while rendered to be 2d, is fundamentally different from a 2d game
21:48:53 <ehird> Sgeo_: please try and explain to him
21:49:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm no longer talking about games
21:49:20 <ehird> you're either being purposefully dense or are dense
21:49:25 <AnMaster> the last line I talked about game was "<AnMaster> ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things"
21:49:31 <AnMaster> after that I left the game analogy
21:49:46 <ehird> the whole point is your model
21:50:00 <Sgeo_> I think we were considering more of the problem of navigation than rendering
21:50:17 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, I'm considering navigating in a 3D web page.
21:50:31 <ehird> Sgeo_: he doesn't understand that how you navigate isn't just about the dimensions
21:50:39 <AnMaster> navigation is made hard, if you can't see where things are
21:50:41 <ehird> whereas we were talking about 0-distance hypertext vs 2d/3d navigable space
21:50:48 <ehird> also he's on some sort of tirade about hiding
21:51:20 <AnMaster> hypertext isn't zero distance unless your mouse happens to be in the right place
21:51:31 <Sgeo_> Actually, I think the Worlds.com model would sort of, kind of, suckily, work
21:52:01 <Sgeo_> Worlds can define a sort of 2d panel of links. Check out the lower-right
21:52:02 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WorldsPlayer.PNG
21:52:11 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT IS NOT WHAT DISTANCE IN SPACE MEANS
21:52:26 <ehird> oh my god, AnMaster is so idiotic i can't even believe
21:52:42 <ehird> Sgeo_: "the Wikipedia"
21:52:42 <Sgeo_> Of course, disseminating information in a 3d web is kind of insane, and a 3d web is still pointless except for the coolness factor
21:53:03 <Sgeo_> ehird, I hope that was a typo on my part
21:54:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you have an issue, mixing up "idiotic" and "lacking knowledge of the terms used"
21:54:55 <ehird> no, if you read what Sgeo_ said, it was very obvious
21:55:14 <ehird> maybe you're even intelligent inside your head, but your communication model is certainly one of the stupidest things i've ever interacted with
21:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no problems talking to most other people, either in here or elsewhere
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess our models are just non-compatible
21:56:55 <ehird> you had a problem talking to Sgeo_
21:57:01 <ehird> since you completely misunderstood what he meant
21:57:08 <ehird> whereas i only have a problem with you
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ehird, only when said person is interacting with you
21:57:18 <ehird> Sgeo_: hear that? talking with me makes you stupid.
21:57:24 <ehird> it's quantum transferodynamic.
21:57:27 <AnMaster> so I guess you force a certain mode.
21:57:46 <AnMaster> my laptop has a 65W external PSU
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21:58:28 <ehird> I force a certain mode!
21:58:37 <ehird> Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic.
21:59:03 <ehird> hmm apparently $100,000 was the most expensive symbolics system
22:02:04 <ehird> [[Like everyone outside the US, I was grossly overcharged by Symbolics UK (some $40,000 per annum in maintenance charges alone).
22:02:04 <ehird> Read more: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/how_to_get.html#ixzz0Ol8aLpJ]]
22:02:10 <ehird> that stupid read more script
22:02:48 <ehird> when i copied it that link appeared.
22:02:56 <ehird> and also sent off the snippet i copied to a server
22:03:13 <ehird> it's a new company
22:03:17 <ehird> almost enough to disable js
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22:10:53 <ehird> "I am designing a VGA+PS/2 keyboard/mouse box to replace the console."
22:14:14 <ehird> "Note: LISP Machines themselves are Y2K compliant, for if ever your date overflows from fixnum format, the hardware will automatically use bignum instead, transparently for the user"
22:14:18 <ehird> god, i love lispms
22:15:16 <pikhq> God, that's awesome.
22:15:56 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc some system clock issue still
22:16:51 <ehird> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg
22:16:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic. <-- I never claimed "idiotic". Just temporarily incompatible with either my communication model or ehird's (pikhq often falls in this category)
22:16:55 <ehird> Control in the bottom row
22:17:07 <ehird> Proving that the caps lock remappers are stupid!
22:17:14 <ehird> Control in the bottom row ftw!
22:17:34 <ehird> AnMaster: many people swap caps lock and control, supposedly to be more ergonomic
22:17:37 <ehird> These people know nothing about ergonomics.
22:17:42 <ehird> They hate their pinkies with a fiery passion.
22:17:48 <pikhq> I have Caps Lock as another control.
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22:17:59 <AnMaster> ehird, are you sure that keyboard you linked is ergonomic though?
22:18:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Not globally
22:18:12 <ehird> But control being there is MORE ergonomic
22:18:17 <ehird> than where capslock would be
22:18:30 <pikhq> Also, what sort of freaky hands do you have that makes *anything* where Ctrl is ergonomic?
22:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I want one with åäö as well
22:18:42 <ehird> pikhq: MORE ergonomic.
22:18:49 <ehird> But look at the lisp machine keyboard; it has control right next to spacebar.
22:18:52 <ehird> *That* is perfect.
22:18:58 <ehird> That's where command is on Apple keyboards
22:19:01 <ehird> and it works brilliantly
22:19:14 <AnMaster> that is under the middle of my palm
22:19:25 <AnMaster> while about tab would be good for ctrl for my hands
22:19:32 <ehird> well, your hands are too big
22:19:40 <pikhq> Yeah, that is under my palm as well.
22:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it is you who have small hands
22:19:56 <pikhq> My thumb has to curl in almost entirely to hit that.
22:19:57 <ehird> evidently steve jobs has small hands too.
22:19:58 <AnMaster> caps lock as ctrl would be nice
22:20:12 <pikhq> And the current Ctrl, well...
22:20:17 <ehird> no, I mean in general
22:20:21 <ehird> there is no way it can be ergonomic
22:20:26 <pikhq> My finger almost comes out of its socket hitting the normal control.
22:20:36 <ehird> (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / square, circle and triangle; where's the x? how are they going to make a playstation emulator?!)
22:20:55 <AnMaster> current ctrl is nice when you go for ctrl-h or so
22:21:04 <AnMaster> but caps lock would work fine then too
22:21:14 <Sgeo_> Is purl.org unlikely to die anytime soon?
22:21:18 <pikhq> keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L
22:21:21 <Sgeo_> Also, I lost my PURL password
22:21:42 <ehird> purl.org dying is very unlikely.
22:21:45 <pikhq> ehird: Ctrl as caps lock is the only option that doesn't almost make my finger go out of its socket.
22:21:50 <pikhq> I'm going to claim that as ergonomic.
22:22:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh. keysym Caps_Lock = Caps_Lock?
22:22:47 <pikhq> xmodmap -e xmodmaprc
22:23:04 <AnMaster> xmodmap: unknown command on line commandline:1
22:23:12 <Sgeo_> I used PURL once, but the place it linked to is gone, and I can't log in :(
22:23:25 <Sgeo_> Also, can I use a PURL address for openID purposes?
22:23:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, isn't the right file ~/.xmodmaprc iirc?
22:23:54 <Sgeo_> Make, say, /NET/sgeo/openid link to an HTML page that does whatever OpenID stuff is needed?
22:24:17 <ehird> Sgeo_: But just direct it directly to your openid provider.
22:24:25 <Sgeo_> ehird, 302s work that way?
22:24:38 <ehird> Sgeo_: If they don't work that way, then directing it to an html page is useless
22:24:41 <ehird> as it'd only work as long as the html page
22:24:46 <ehird> thus defeating the point of a purl
22:24:51 <AnMaster> xmodmap: /home/arvid/.xmodmaprc:1: bad keysym target keysym 'Caps_Lock', no corresponding keycodes
22:24:51 <AnMaster> xmodmap: 1 error encountered, aborting.
22:25:18 <AnMaster> and it still does damn caps lock function
22:25:26 <AnMaster> well, tell me what is wrong pikhq!
22:25:32 <Sgeo_> Yay, I remember my PURL password!
22:25:35 <ehird> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/KanjiTablet1.jpeg ; symbolics kanji keyboard
22:25:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: btw, most people use /net/, not /NET/
22:26:12 <ehird> Sgeo_: What I'd do is, have http://purl.org/net/sgeo
22:26:24 <ehird> Point this at an HTML page with the openid meta tags pointing to whatever provider
22:26:29 <ehird> as well as a home page if you want
22:26:35 <ehird> i.e., don't have a separate openid page
22:26:37 <Sgeo_> I can't just point it to the provider?
22:26:38 <ehird> since the openid is "you"
22:26:53 <ehird> having a separate openid page is technically fine, but kinda misses the point
22:27:00 <ehird> plus, http://purl.org/net/sgeo is shorter :P
22:27:11 <Sgeo_> I think I'm just going to point it to the provider for now
22:27:26 <ehird> sure, point is that it can represent non-openid too
22:28:10 <ehird> monitor electronics, our own laser-printer electronics, we wrote
22:28:10 <ehird> the microcode, we wrote the operating system, and so on, but making
22:28:10 <ehird> our own keys was, finally, below the level of abstraction that demarked
22:28:11 <ehird> our build/buy line. We were really, really crazy, but we were not
22:28:11 <ehird> really, really, really, really crazy."
22:31:33 <AnMaster> xmodmap just doesn't work at all
22:31:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, might be interesting to know
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22:34:36 <oerjan> <AnMaster> or why else would he quit the computer?
22:34:48 <oerjan> mainly because i was going to take the bus afterwards
22:35:43 <oerjan> and i've had the bad luck before of going into the shower without turning off the computer, coming back to catch up on irc, and missing the bus :/D
22:37:12 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ...he has a water proof computer!
22:37:22 <oerjan> logic is a marvelous thing, isn't it :)
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22:45:10 <Sgeo_> ehird, when I try using Purl, the sites still say that my identity is the underlying provider
22:45:28 <ehird> Sgeo_: but they'll identify you by the purl url, no?
22:45:35 <ehird> Therefore if you change the purl location, you can still login.
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22:45:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, seems to me that they'd identify me by the provider
22:46:10 <ehird> Sgeo_: Well, try it and see.
22:46:16 <ehird> Log in as your purl, change your purl to another provider, try again.
22:46:22 <Sgeo_> Not now, I have other stuff to deal with
22:46:29 <ehird> Sgeo_: Create another purl to do it if you want to avoid breaking things.
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23:52:07 <ehird> there should be spoons that close up once you put something on them then open when they reach your mouth. my hands are shaking :P
23:52:25 <kwertii> ehird: I believe those are called "tongs"
23:52:43 <pikhq> Grog. There's a charity that was founded to provide free healthcare to third world countries. Said charity is providing healthcare in the US.
23:52:50 <pikhq> ... Because we need it more than they do.
23:52:57 <kwertii> "Marge... do we have any of those things that you use to... dig.... food....?"
23:53:31 <ehird> pikhq: It's entirely possible your healthcare system is worse :P
23:53:39 <ehird> kwertii: shaddap you
23:54:08 <pikhq> ehird: In poorer regions, our life expectancy is about on par with Bosnia.
23:54:33 <ehird> <USA> Lucky Bosnia!
23:54:38 <kwertii> Cuba's overall life expectancy is higher than the US
23:54:57 <pikhq> kwertii: And their healthcare system is a bit better.
23:55:09 <kwertii> pikhq: US healthcare is the best in the world.... if you're rich
23:55:35 <pikhq> "Rich" as in "can pay for it all yourself, no insurance needed".
23:55:58 <ehird> Republicans don't seem to realise that if they want their granny not to be brutally murdered by a death panel (I mean, assuming that would happen, which it wouldn't) they could just do what they're doing now and pay for it...
23:56:11 <kwertii> and yet poor people are going out to heckle congressional representatives on behalf of the insurance companies *sighs*
23:56:22 <ehird> Unless they're okay with their grannies dying as long as a "death panel" wasn't involved :P
23:57:17 <kwertii> "death panel" is one of their linguists' contrivances (like "death tax" and "tax relief") to push their agenda subtly even when opponents talk by the inherent framing of the debate in those terms. (cf. Don't Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff)
23:57:57 <ehird> I'm just in awe that the republicans don't understand that it's not mandatory
23:57:59 <kwertii> and I have to say, the Democrats really, really suck at that sort of thing. They control both houses of Congress and have the most popular president in 40 years, and they *still* can't get healthcare reform passed.
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23:58:26 <kwertii> ehird: they understand perfectly well at the higher levels. the rank-and-file are stupid and easily manipulable
23:58:30 <ehird> they're not even trying to push the best model - single payer health care
23:58:36 <ehird> the reform they want is a total compromise
23:59:31 <kwertii> ehird: http://incredimazing.com/static/media/2009/08/19/Itawb/itawb.jpg
23:59:53 <ehird> remind me why people like the US :-P