00:00:12 <kwertii> ehird: really, I like it here. it's my country, after all.
00:00:19 <kwertii> ehird: not _everyone_ is a fat idiot
00:00:22 <ehird> that sentence reeks of patriotism
00:00:46 <ehird> I have never understood the fetishization of an accident of geography...
00:00:53 <kwertii> it's not just geography, it's the culture too
00:01:07 <ehird> I guess I find it very hard to comprehend the culture being good
00:01:17 <kwertii> have you ever been here for an extended period of time?
00:01:33 <kwertii> well.. then obviously you won't understand the culture :)
00:01:48 <ehird> I don't think that's true. I have a basic grasp on some other countries' culture.
00:01:56 <kwertii> watching Hollywood movies does not make one an expert on American culture, despite what 80% of Europeans seem to think
00:02:04 <ehird> "80% of Europeans"
00:02:11 <ehird> have you considered how hypocritical you just were there?
00:02:22 <ehird> I haven't met a single person who would claim that
00:02:27 <kwertii> no. I've been to Europe for an extended time, interacted with many Europeans, and learned the culture
00:02:44 <ehird> then you must have gone to bizarro europe
00:02:46 <kwertii> ok, fine, I was exaggerating for effect with the "80%" figure
00:03:23 <ehird> is that linked to euopean...ity? I'd say it's more idiocy.
00:03:26 <ehird> Many people, indeed, are idiots
00:03:35 <kwertii> well, many people are idiots everywhere, in any country
00:04:07 <kwertii> and European idiots tend to think that listening to a Nirvana album and seeing the entire "Die Hard" series makes them an expert on American culture
00:04:41 <ehird> Are you a farmer? Because you sure do have a lot of strawmen
00:05:01 <ehird> dayum that was good
00:05:38 <kwertii> good cultural point: Americans are generally much more egalitarian and less snotty than Europeans
00:05:51 <kwertii> (obviously making gross generalizations)
00:06:05 <ehird> pikhq: is this your impression?
00:06:08 <ehird> I've never heard that before
00:06:32 <ehird> I mean, for chrissakes, the predominant culture in the US is "Yay freedom, guns, liberty, fuck everyone else, capitalism!"
00:06:41 <pikhq> My impression is that Americans are generally much more antiïntellectual than Europeans.
00:06:50 <kwertii> ehird: that is emphatically *not* the "predominant culture" in the US. come visit sometime.
00:06:57 <ehird> (and you can dispute this, but unless there's some sort of global web filter distorting EVERYTHING coming from the US on the internet, you're wrong)
00:07:08 <pikhq> kwertii: Where did you live in the US?
00:07:24 <pikhq> Or, rather, do live.
00:07:27 <kwertii> pikhq: for extended times in Pennsylvania, Florida, and California, and I've visited many other places
00:07:49 <ehird> i don't deny that a lot of american people are fine
00:07:54 <ehird> that's true for every country
00:08:01 <ehird> i mean for people that actually have opinions on it
00:08:03 <pikhq> Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma, Kansas, with some time in Massachussets.
00:08:20 <kwertii> ehird: I think the anti-intellectualism is a broad Anglo-Saxon thing. English people are also markedly anti-intellectual relative to others.
00:08:31 <ehird> The English culture is self-loathing.
00:08:44 <ehird> It sucks, but what can you do.
00:08:51 <ehird> England doesn't really count as European, politically.
00:08:51 <pikhq> ehird: Exception, BNP.
00:09:00 <ehird> pikhq: That's self-loathing too.
00:09:05 <kwertii> ehird: the Engish perception of an average professor is (description quoted from an actual Englishman) "an awkward fellow with a stack of books and soup on his tie who can't carry on a normal conversation"
00:09:15 <pikhq> Seems more like general loathing.
00:09:25 <kwertii> ehird: so no fair calling out Americans as anti-intellectual :P
00:09:27 <ehird> When I talk about European culture, I don't really include the UK
00:09:32 <ehird> and I don't like this place
00:09:41 <ehird> pikhq: Loathing is not a simple emotion of rage and hate, oh no.
00:10:29 <pikhq> The UK seems less crazy than the US.
00:10:46 <pikhq> ... In much the same way that Mormons seem less crazy than Scientologists.
00:10:47 <ehird> The self-loathing is sort of like a seething, dripping putrid liquid from the crevices of our darkest points, gradually strangling and restricting the blood flow of our brain in its ignoramus hold, destroying our thoughts and gradually leading to complete hopelessness that can't face the impending total oblivion it faces.
00:10:55 <ehird> It truly is an amazing thing.
00:11:16 <ehird> (although, of course, you won't find it on the streets, etc; because there isn't really any general culture; but if we only include interpretations that lead there to be one, this would be it)
00:11:17 <kwertii> ehird: wow, you must love H. P. Lovecraft
00:11:34 <ehird> kwertii: haha, i haven't read much of his stuff but i do like what i've read a lot
00:11:55 <pikhq> "Rush Limbaugh, I got billed $6,000 just to have a broken arm set." "Well, you shouldn't have broken your arm, should you?"
00:12:23 <kwertii> I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Rush Limbaugh is considered a far-right wing extremist by the vast majority of the population of the US.
00:12:48 <ehird> This is some new definition of vast majority of which I was not previously aware.
00:12:53 <ehird> Are you sure you aren't just living in a nice area?
00:13:01 <pikhq> kwertii: I would like to take this opportunity to point out that about 20% of the US population is far-right wing extremists.
00:13:57 <kwertii> ehird: I live in San Francisco, which is far-left by US standards (which brings its own set of problems, such as the nauseating fetishization of identity politics), but I lived in the deep south (Florida) and the industrial northeast (Pennsylvania) for long periods of time too
00:14:08 <ehird> far right wing extremists... don't you guys call that the republican party :)
00:14:16 <kwertii> pikhq: 20% sounds about right. 80% counts as "vast majority".
00:14:33 <ehird> 80% is a large majority
00:14:38 <pikhq> ehird: About 24% of Americans identify as "Republican", and 30% as "independent".
00:14:43 <ehird> 90%/10% is a vast majority
00:15:11 <pikhq> This doesn't show up in *voting* because we have truly terrible voter turnout.
00:15:16 <kwertii> ehird: there are 2 broad factions in the Republican party, the "gun nut / religious right" and the "business elite Rudy Giuliani types". they don't like each other, but they worked together for a long time until recently.
00:15:21 <pikhq> Less than 50%, generally.
00:15:24 <ehird> kwertii: yeah but they both suck :)
00:15:30 <kwertii> ehird: the business ones are not nearly as crazy
00:15:40 <ehird> Right wing economics is scary.
00:15:46 <ehird> It has far-reaching social implications.
00:15:56 <kwertii> ehird: for example, the business types couldn't care less if you're gay or whether you go to church
00:16:16 <ehird> consider, though, health care
00:16:17 <pikhq> They just think Ayn Rand had the right idea.
00:16:24 <ehird> a "free market" position has a LOT of effects
00:16:30 <kwertii> ehird: agree, I think both of them have a bad take on healthcare
00:16:35 <ehird> Someone dying is irreversible
00:16:40 <ehird> Two people not being able to marry can happen later
00:16:50 <ehird> it's all a matter of perspective
00:17:27 <kwertii> ehird: the thing is.. most of them aren't bad people on a personal level. they just literally don't realize that not everyone is rich. they genuinely believe that if you go get a job and work hard, you'll wind up rich (because they did / their dad did / their grandfather did), so they assume that it will work out like that for everyone
00:17:53 <ehird> I've always wondered how people class others, if not by their political positions: that which literally defines how they view the world.
00:18:03 <ehird> Perhaps not bad, but stupid at least.
00:18:13 <oklokok> so people are only right-wing because they are stupid?
00:18:18 <kwertii> ehird: many are very intelligent, they were just raised in an insulated world and they lack perspective
00:18:24 <ehird> oklokok: sounds about right
00:18:36 <ehird> I've never heard a right-winger actually defend their position properly logically
00:18:48 <ehird> kwertii: but a rational person would not generalise from such a small sample.
00:18:51 <oklokok> if you're rich and only care about yourself, it's the most sensible way to go
00:19:03 <oklokok> i guess that's the "bad people" minority
00:19:10 <kwertii> ehird: I have met ones that can logically defend their position. those are the genuinely scary ones.
00:19:10 <ehird> oklokok: yes, and when the rest of society holding you up collapses, you fall to the curb
00:19:18 <ehird> right-wing politics are in nobody's interests
00:19:29 <ehird> kwertii: are you sure they didn't hypnotise you? :)
00:19:34 <kwertii> ehird: haha. yes, I'm sure
00:19:42 <pikhq> ehird: They're in plenty of people's interests.
00:19:50 <ehird> pikhq: not ultimately
00:20:03 <ehird> right-wing politics, at the end, lead to the collapse of the non-elite, and the elite RELIES on them to exist
00:20:07 <oklokok> ehird: if you had an eternal life, then probably not
00:20:11 <ehird> long-term, it's in nobody's interest
00:20:19 <pikhq> ehird: Short-term interests, I should say.
00:20:24 <oklokok> but if you're say 50, right is the way to go
00:20:31 <oklokok> ...assuming you only care about yourself and are rich
00:20:32 <pikhq> The long-term result is, of course, the dark ages.
00:20:33 <ehird> oklokok: unless you have any sort of sense of ethics, for instance
00:20:48 <ehird> plus, look at the meltdown!
00:20:53 <ehird> the people who caused this are still alive
00:20:57 <oklokok> ehird: right, i was assuming you don't
00:20:59 <ehird> although it hasn't hit the elite yet
00:21:05 <pikhq> ehird: I think it clear that they have no ethics.
00:21:32 <ehird> i wonder why nobody seems to like direct democracy
00:22:01 <kwertii> ehird: because most people are stupid. direct democracy is a HORRIBLE idea. just look at the state of California today for a case study.
00:22:16 <ehird> kwertii: People being stupid is a problem with democracy in general.
00:22:28 <kwertii> ehird: yes, and it's somewhat mitigated through the representation process
00:22:31 <ehird> But if most people want gay marriage to be illegal, the right thing to happen as far as the state is concerned is for it to be illegal.
00:22:39 <pikhq> ehird: I would support a benevolent dictatorship, if there were such a thing as a benevolent dictator.
00:22:48 <ehird> indirect democracy is partly a dictatorship
00:22:52 <kwertii> ehird: most people in California voted for no gay marriage. the pro-gay marriage side won't accept that
00:22:55 <ehird> the whole point of democracy is that the people decide what happens to them
00:23:12 <pikhq> kwertii: The Mormon church is to blame for that.
00:23:38 <ehird> (why are churches tax-free?)
00:24:04 <pikhq> And it's currently getting opposed as being against the US constitution.
00:24:40 <kwertii> ehird: CA has an extensive direct referendum system. we get at *least* 15 direct referendums for laws every year, often more. so the left proposes massive govt spending and everyone says "Yes!!! subsidies for this and that!!!" and then the right proposes massive tax cuts and everyone says "yes!! I want to pay less taxes!! who doesn't??" (because most people are stupid and inconsistent), and as a result California is bankrupt.
00:25:05 <ehird> kwertii: if you oppose the people being able to fuck themselves over, you oppose democracy
00:25:13 <kwertii> pikhq: I wish people would spend HALF as much time on Prop 13 as they are on Prop 8.
00:25:31 <kwertii> ehird: I oppose direct democracy. I am in favor of representative democracy.
00:25:42 <ehird> representative democracy isn't democracy, though
00:25:51 <kwertii> ehird: eh, semantics. call it whatever you want.
00:26:10 <ehird> am i insane for only wanting to call things democratic that are?
00:26:13 <kwertii> then I'm in favor of a republican (note small-r) system
00:26:24 <pikhq> Y'know what? All government sucks.
00:26:31 <ehird> pikhq: I'm an anarchist in theory. :P
00:26:33 <pikhq> Bring on the singularity.
00:26:48 <kwertii> anarchy would be great ... for about a week, until someone beats your head in with a brick over a loaf of bread
00:26:49 <ehird> You know, most singularity proponents favour the singularity being benevolent dictator of the universe.
00:26:50 <oklokok> the world is too complicated
00:26:59 <ehird> kwertii: people can do that with laws, too
00:27:13 <kwertii> ehird: but they stand a very good chance of being arrested and imprisoned, which deters it most of the time.
00:27:48 <pikhq> I think the bigger problem with anarchy is not individuals who would go out and do crazy shit, but with corporations doing so.
00:27:53 <ehird> i'm uncomfortable with the idea that most people are evil and only don't murder 16:28:00 <ehird> it's like religious people who say
00:28:10 <ehird> "atheists can't have any morals, because they don't have a bible to tell them"
00:28:17 <kwertii> pikhq: exactly.. any anarchy would quickly develop street gangs and mafias that would take over.. until one eliminated all the others and renamed itself "the government"
00:28:27 <pikhq> Because corporations actually are evil and only don't murder people because there's the threat of huge fines.
00:28:32 <kwertii> ehird: maybe not most people, but at least some people
00:28:32 <ehird> yeah, that's the thing; anarchy inevitably leads to government
00:28:45 <ehird> since there's no such thing as a de jure govt
00:28:47 <ehird> just a de facto one
00:29:09 <kwertii> a "government" is just a monopoly on the use of force
00:29:18 <kwertii> *the legitimate use of force
00:29:26 <pikhq> kwertii: That's a property, not a definition.
00:29:34 <kwertii> pikhq: that's my definition
00:29:50 <pikhq> A government is a *nomic* with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
00:29:57 <pikhq> There's a definition.
00:30:04 <kwertii> pikhq: the nomic part isn't necessary
00:30:17 <kwertii> nomic implies that every participant has, or at least once had, a means to influence the system
00:30:36 <pikhq> Nomic implies that there is a means to influence the system.
00:30:48 <kwertii> there isn't necessarily such a means
00:30:52 <pikhq> You must not be familiar with emperor nomic. ;)
00:31:20 <kwertii> it is possible to characterize a government as a nomic, sure, but I'd say that's a property and not a definition ;)
00:31:26 <pikhq> (nomic by benevolent dictator)
00:32:09 <kwertii> that's a rather trivial sense of the word "nomic" then
00:32:18 <oerjan> imperial nomic looked fun
00:32:50 <pikhq> A nomic is a system of rules that have rules for their modification.
00:33:40 <kwertii> pikhq: yeah, I know what it is. A govt does not necessarily meet that definition. and if it did, that would be incidental to its own definition
00:33:46 <oerjan> kwertii: i hear california has a balanced budget requirement - what if that was extended to _each_ popular referendum...
00:34:11 <kwertii> oerjan: that would be a step in the right direction.. I'd support it
00:34:16 <pikhq> kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition.
00:34:28 <oerjan> so you couldn't make a subsidy without also raising taxes simultaneously, or something like that
00:34:46 <kwertii> oerjan: another problem is that (unlike most states) budgets must be passed by a 2/3rds majority in the legislature (rather than a simple majority), which allows extremists from either party to halt the process
00:35:11 <oerjan> kwertii: oh, not just those which increase taxes?
00:35:17 <kwertii> pikhq: any authoritarian govt where changes are made arbitrarily without rules
00:35:33 <kwertii> oerjan: every single year the yearly budget must be passed by a 2/3rds majority
00:35:43 <pikhq> But there's rules governing how they may make rules. Said rules are, of course, trivial.
00:35:53 <pikhq> That is a very simple nomic.
00:35:54 <kwertii> pikhq: haha. that doesn't count as a rule
00:36:04 <kwertii> "The rule is: there are no rules"
00:36:18 <pikhq> That's anarchy, not nomic.
00:36:25 <kwertii> pikhq: and in any case, that would be a *description* of a government rather than a definition of it
00:36:31 <oerjan> kwertii: oh well. either california solves the problem, or it collapses and _then_ solves the problem.
00:36:43 <kwertii> oerjan: :( maybe I'll move to New York
00:36:50 <pikhq> kwertii: It's a formalism for defining a government, actually. ;)
00:37:07 <kwertii> pikhq: formalisms are just that, formalisms. models. they are not identical to the thing itself. they're models of it.
00:37:25 <pikhq> oerjan: Care to take this one?
00:37:40 * pikhq tags out, lets the mathematician have fun
00:37:41 <oerjan> <pikhq> kwertii: Name to me a government that does not meet that definition.
00:37:41 <oklokok> politics is such a useless subject
00:37:53 <kwertii> pikhq: /me philosopher > mathematician ;)
00:38:14 <oerjan> i recall the vatican state is still absolutist monarchist, so no rules the pope cannot change at least
00:38:31 <pikhq> kwertii: Not greater. Philosophy and math just have a common subset.
00:38:39 <kwertii> pikhq: mathematics is just applied philosophy
00:39:00 <oklokok> pikhq: i think he meant he's more a philosopher than he's a mathematician
00:39:03 <kwertii> pikhq: that being why you get a.... PhD (philosophiae doctor) degree
00:39:38 <pikhq> kwertii: Philosophy is just math with crappy axioms. :P
00:39:56 <oklokok> pikhq tags out, lets the mathematician have fun <<< ah i read mathematician*s*, thought pikhq thought kwertii was one, yeah nm me
00:40:06 <kwertii> pikhq: Math is a game with rules and no goal. Philosophy is a game with a goal and no rules.
00:40:31 <kwertii> Linguistics is a game with neither rules nor goal.
00:40:34 <pikhq> kwertii: Like I said, crappy axioms.
00:40:44 <kwertii> pikhq: axiomatic knowledge is by definition faith-based
00:40:58 <kwertii> pikhq: in other words... a religion! *zing*
00:41:02 <oklokok> kwertii: only the objects math handles are like that, i'd say the actual creative part of mathematics has neither rules nor a goal :)
00:41:29 <pikhq> No, no, no. Axioms are defined because they are useful.
00:41:35 <kwertii> oklokok: but the creative part just consists in inventing new rules..
00:41:43 <kwertii> pikhq: so says any religion
00:41:59 <oklokok> kwertii: well right, that's what i meant
00:42:05 <pikhq> ... No, religions state their axioms just *are*.
00:42:30 <pikhq> Math defines axioms just because they can do something with it. That's it.
00:42:41 <kwertii> pikhq: that's what math states about its axioms. granted, it's somewhat more open to modifying them, and more internally consistent, than most religions, but in the end it's still all faith-based propositions with no means of testing them
00:43:06 <kwertii> so I'll readily concede that math is a "better" religion in some sense than most..
00:43:52 <kwertii> but I don't buy into mathematical Platonism in any sense
00:44:00 <pikhq> Math is not at all internally consistent. It has been proven impossible for any nontrivial axiomatic system to be consistent. ;)
00:44:06 <pikhq> (... IIRC. I may have botched that.)
00:44:16 <pikhq> (incompleteness theorem, right?)
00:44:25 <kwertii> pikhq: it's *mostly* internally consistent. Yes, Goedel's Incompleteness theorem
00:44:35 <kwertii> which actually only applies to first order predicate calculus IIRC
00:45:03 <kwertii> ... which just proves my point that it's not a certain body of knowledge but a religion :)
00:45:10 <pikhq> And anyways, we don't take faith that our axioms are correct. We don't even say our axioms are anything but scribblings on a piece of paper.
00:45:26 <pikhq> We say that from these axioms, we can say certain things are true.
00:45:56 <kwertii> what the incompleteness theorem says is that a body of knowledge is EITHER internally inconsistent OR based on external axioms which are not provable within the system (i.e. faith-based..)
00:46:27 <kwertii> "body of knowledge" being defined narrowly as something expressable in 1st order predicate calculus
00:46:32 <pikhq> ... You haven't even demonstrated your assertion that axioms = faith.
00:47:02 <kwertii> pikhq: by definition of "axiom", they're just assertions. they're not testable. therefore faith based by definition. you can either accept that they're true or not. there's no scientific test that can be done
00:47:11 <oklokok> kwertii: but math isn't about believing in those axioms, it just says that for a system where they are true would have certain properties
00:47:25 <pikhq> kwertii: But faith implies belief.
00:47:38 <oerjan> <pikhq> (... IIRC. I may have botched that.) <-- you surely did
00:47:49 <kwertii> oklokok: sure, it's an interesting game.. I didn't say it was worthless to pursue math..
00:47:56 <oklokok> math isn't about beliving this universe is such a system, for any set of axioms
00:48:05 <oklokok> that's physics, and the rest
00:48:09 <pikhq> No mathematician *believes in* their axioms. Thus, there can be no faith involved in the game.
00:48:13 <oerjan> consistent _and complete_ is what's impossible
00:48:21 <pikhq> oerjan: Ah, right.
00:48:37 <Slereah> Consistent and complete is possible
00:48:40 <kwertii> oklokok: well.. the dominant theory of the philosophy of math in modern academia is the Platonic theory which says that mathematical truths are in some sense "real", reflections of inherent properties of the universe.. which is just magical thinking IMO
00:48:50 <Slereah> Propositional calculus is totally both
00:48:56 <pikhq> Anyways, we don't say "ZFC must be true!", we say "From ZFC, we can see that 1+1=2."
00:49:01 <oerjan> Slereah: this refers to pikhq's original statement, which included "non-trivial"
00:49:20 <Slereah> Hey, propositional calculus is not trivial!
00:49:24 <oklokok> kwertii: yes, that sounds religious, i'm not saying mathematicianism isn't a religion, just that mathematics isn't :P
00:49:32 <oerjan> well indeed that seems a bit strong
00:49:57 <kwertii> oklokok: in the sense that most mathematicians aren't aware of and don't care about the philosophical basis of their field, sure :)
00:50:24 <kwertii> pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:50:28 <oerjan> Slereah: well i was trying to interpret pikhq as close to right as possible there
00:50:28 <Slereah> There is a dude who did newtonian mechanics without any number or functions
00:50:32 <oklokok> kwertii: i mean for some mathematicians math might be a religion, but that's completely outside math as a field, imo
00:50:40 <Slereah> And he proposed methods to replace all such math
00:50:43 <pikhq> kwertii: And I know of no mathematicians that do.
00:50:47 <ehird> i hate philosophy.
00:50:58 <kwertii> pikhq: check out any modern work on the philosophy of mathematics..
00:51:01 <pikhq> Mathematicians just simply claim that ZFC is useful.
00:51:31 <kwertii> pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game
00:51:33 <pikhq> kwertii: Clearly, the philosophy of mathematics has flawed assertions.
00:52:05 <pikhq> When you start by saying that "mathematical truth is real", of course you start thinking math is a religion.
00:52:17 <pikhq> Of course, *that's not math*.
00:52:17 <oerjan> <pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:52:18 <kwertii> pikhq: that is the current mainstream view in phil of math
00:52:41 <oerjan> <kwertii> pikhq: point is we have absolutely no reason to believe that ZFC is correct
00:52:41 <pikhq> *Nothing in math is real*. (well, aside from the set of reals. :P)
00:52:42 <kwertii> pikhq: what you're describing is closer to physics.. physicists don't care about the equations except insofar as they model some real system
00:53:07 <kwertii> oerjan: insofar as it's based on axioms arrived at inductively , it is (by definition) without any basis except faith
00:53:31 <pikhq> kwertii: And mathematicians don't care about the equations except insofar as further interesting statements can be made.
00:53:44 <kwertii> pikhq: most mathematicians, yeah, but mathematical philosophers...
00:54:08 <oerjan> kwertii: we have reason to believer it is consistent, though, as good as for any other scientific theory, because it has kept on not being proven inconsistent
00:54:16 <kwertii> pikhq: It's an interesting game, sure, but it's not capital-T Truth in any sense.
00:54:27 <pikhq> Mathematical philosophers are not talking about math, but rather their own stupid thoughts on what math is.
00:54:31 <oklokok> kwertii: by "ZFC is correct", do you mean "ZFC is consistent"
00:54:43 <oklokok> or do you mean that it's correct
00:54:58 <pikhq> The very term "correct" does not even apply to axioms. ;)
00:55:01 <kwertii> oerjan: sure, it's a good working hypothesis insofar as it turns out useful results, but it's not metaphysical capital-T Truth. it's a set of asserted rules for a game
00:55:21 <oklokok> i mean is "correct" a mathematical philosophical term and what does it mean
00:55:31 <kwertii> oklokok: by "correct", I mean an accurate description of some aspect of reality
00:55:44 <kwertii> oklokok: everything is a philosophical term ;)
00:55:49 <oklokok> right, i have no idea what that means
00:56:05 <pikhq> kwertii: "ZFC is correct" has less meaning than "colorless green ideas dream furiously".
00:56:41 <oerjan> kwertii: its importance is because all other games we have so far invented can be imbedded into it in one way or another
00:56:42 <pikhq> ... But you've not been saying that at all.
00:56:52 <kwertii> oerjan: most.. but not all......
00:57:06 <kwertii> pikhq: perhaps I haven't been explaining myself very well
00:57:17 <kwertii> oerjan: which is cool. no question about it
00:57:30 <pikhq> You've been saying that "mathematical truths are real" and "'ZFC is correct' is a belief".
00:57:50 <kwertii> pikhq: yes. faith based assertions which are not testable
00:58:15 <pikhq> kwertii: No, they are contradictions in terms.
00:58:18 <kwertii> axioms are by definition assertions. they don't derive from anything
00:58:55 <pikhq> Mathematical anything is not real. And ZFC is neither correct nor incorrect.
00:59:09 <pikhq> Mathematics is the very opposite of reality.
00:59:15 <pikhq> It's all in our heads!
00:59:21 <kwertii> pikhq: ah, good, we agree after all :)
00:59:26 <oerjan> kwertii: if you are liberal with what you consider an embedding, i'm not sure about "but not all"
00:59:41 <kwertii> oerjan: well, it can't model "random" processes, by definition
00:59:44 <oerjan> there are kripke models for alternative logics, for example
00:59:47 <pikhq> kwertii: Which is hugely different from religion.
01:00:01 <pikhq> Religion states "X is real".
01:00:04 <oerjan> kwertii: huh, sure it can. have you never heard of probability theory
01:00:12 <pikhq> Math says "Shove reality, we're having fun!"
01:00:22 <kwertii> oerjan: "random" results are by definition those that do not follow any known probability distribution
01:00:37 <oerjan> kwertii: that's an unusual definition of random
01:00:53 <kwertii> oerjan: if you know a reliable way to model random phenomena, contact me and let's make a boatload of money in the stock market :)
01:01:10 <oerjan> kwertii: modeling does not imply being able to predict
01:01:43 <kwertii> oerjan: a theory that does not make testable predictions is (by definition) unscientific
01:01:50 <oerjan> the stock market problem is probably chaos
01:02:08 <pikhq> kwertii: Good thing math isn't science.
01:02:13 <kwertii> oerjan: or sunspots or earthquakes or weather phenomena or the emission of radiation from unstable elements or outer space radio noise, etc.
01:02:17 <oklokok> math has nothing to do with science
01:02:42 <kwertii> an unscientific theory is, by definition, magical thinking.. a religion
01:03:12 <kwertii> cf. critical rationalism of Karl Popper in phil of science
01:03:27 <oklokok> kwertii: those are still things that model the real world, only they don't follow any scientific method.
01:03:31 <oklokok> they are closer to science than math.
01:03:44 <oerjan> kwertii: being unable to predict exactly is not unscientific, and math _proves_ you cannot predict chaotic systems long-term other than statistically
01:04:04 <kwertii> oerjan: chaotic != truly random
01:04:04 <pikhq> I think that this conversation suffices as empirical evidence that philosophy has terrible axioms.
01:04:20 <pikhq> With that said, I'm going to go pack.
01:04:21 <kwertii> pikhq: we don't use axioms, they're just faith-based superstition ;)
01:04:26 <oerjan> kwertii: there is no proof any of those examples are more than chaotic
01:04:53 <kwertii> oerjan: that's part of the interesting part, "randomness" can only be defined negatively... as something like "the lack of any known ordering"
01:05:13 <kwertii> oerjan: many phenomena previously considered "random" were later found to simply have non-obvious order
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01:05:42 <oklokok> so you define random as a sequence a tm can't produce?
01:06:10 <kwertii> oklokok: I don't know if I'd use that particular definition, but it could be
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01:06:37 <kwertii> oklokok: you could just have a tm repeat some previously known "random" sequence, in which case that def reduces to "uncompressable information" or something like that
01:07:01 <kwertii> oklokok: but the problem is that any sufficiently long "random" sequence will eventually include some compressable data
01:07:32 <kwertii> oklokok: if you have an infinitely long "random" string, it will contain the complete works of Shakespeare somewhere
01:08:03 <oerjan> kwertii: that doesn't make the whole sequence compressible though
01:08:42 <kwertii> oerjan: ok, I can accept more readily "the sequence as a whole is uncompressible" as a good definition.. but then you could compress it insofar as you could replace large chunks of it with algorithms and make it smaller
01:08:55 <kwertii> I don't know exactly what "random" means. if I did, I'd be a billionaire.
01:09:25 <oerjan> kwertii: nope, doesn't work, the overhead to handle those "compressible" bits will make the _rest_ longer
01:09:26 <oklokok> we should have like a basic information theory exam for getting on this channel
01:10:00 <kwertii> oerjan: but you could have an overall "smaller" string still if your overhead is smaller than the sequence removed
01:10:26 <oerjan> kwertii: but if the whole string is incompressible, then you cannot achieve that, by definition
01:10:42 <oklokok> i'll follow ehird's lead and go to the shoppe, methinks ->
01:10:42 <kwertii> oerjan: ok, so "uncompressable" is not a good definition for "random" then :)
01:11:16 <oerjan> it's undecidable, for one thing...
01:12:15 <oerjan> but then so is stochastical randomness
01:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: Mmmm, home-made sparkling water!
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01:39:18 <ehird> GregorR: what about water
01:39:37 <ehird> [00:51] kwertii: pikhq: as I said to oklokok .... yea, most practicing mathematicians don't know or care about the philosophical basis of their work, they're just playing a game
01:39:41 <ehird> way to trivialise mathematics
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01:40:10 <kwertii> ehird: ?? like it's *my* fault
01:40:36 <ehird> gawd i hate philosophers
01:41:23 <pikhq> kwertii: Learn what math is before talking about it. ;)
01:41:32 <kwertii> pikhq: I've got a pretty good grasp of math, thanks
01:41:57 <kwertii> learn what philosophy is before making philosophical claims...
01:42:54 <ehird> learn what astrology is before making astrological claims
01:43:00 <pikhq> From what I've seen of this conversation, philosophy is redefining something and then making statements regarding that redefinition.
01:43:02 <ehird> don't just say it's pseudoscientific bullshit!
01:43:18 <Slereah> Philosophy is a rather vast field
01:43:37 <Slereah> Some is actually pretty tits
01:44:35 <kwertii> Slereah: yep, vast. most all other fields are subfields of philosophy (much to some peoples' consternation). that's why you get a PhD (philosophiae doctor) in most fields as the highest degree - it means you have a philosophical understanding of the field, which is held to be the highest level of knowledge.
01:45:16 <Slereah> Well, the meaning has changed a bit
01:45:19 <kwertii> you don't necessarily need to learn all about astrology yourself before concluding that it's pseudoscience (i.e. it makes untestable predictions); you can find someone that you trust who has done the analysis for you and trust them.
01:45:31 <ehird> philosophy is bullshit
01:45:33 <Slereah> Back then it was to contrast it with a theological doctorate
01:45:41 <ehird> it's another word for,
01:45:48 <kwertii> Slereah: and a law degree (JD) and a medical degree (MD)
01:45:49 <ehird> "I can't think of a way to formalise this"
01:45:52 <ehird> "so let's just make shit up"
01:45:55 <ehird> "and pretend it's reason"
01:45:56 <GregorR> Mmmm, more sparkling water.
01:45:58 <Slereah> ehird : Gödel's incompleteness theorem is philosophy :(
01:46:04 <ehird> Slereah: no, it's mathematics
01:46:07 <kwertii> ehird: hey, don't shoot the messenger.
01:46:15 <ehird> it's not philosophy
01:46:24 <Slereah> A lot of logic and set theory was based on mathematical philosophy
01:46:47 <ehird> it's formalised so it's notphilosophy
01:47:04 <Slereah> There is an important semantical part behind it
01:47:05 <kwertii> philosophy, particularly Anglo-American analytic philosophy, is extremely formal
01:47:19 <ehird> GregorR: sparkling water can't compare to swig ingest drink!
01:47:19 <pikhq> kwertii: Then it's math.
01:47:25 <kwertii> pikhq: there's a lot of verlap
01:47:26 <Slereah> I mean, you can't prove Gödel's theorem without some semantics
01:47:40 <GregorR> ehird: ... I'm swigging, ingesting and drinking sparkling water.
01:47:41 <pikhq> Since mathematics is formal reasoning.
01:47:57 <kwertii> one of the single most foundational figures of modern mathematics, Bertrand Russell, was (not coincidentally) also a philosopher
01:48:04 <ehird> GregorR: But is it a bottle of liquid, Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption?
01:48:14 <ehird> It's like a TASTE in your MOUTH! Soft drink!
01:48:16 <Slereah> ehird, are you still 13 years old
01:48:18 <GregorR> `google "swig ingest drink"
01:48:20 <HackEgo> Main Entry: swig. Part of Speech: verb. Definition: drink down ... gulp, imbibe, ingest, ingurgitate, inhale, put away, quaff, sip, slurp, swig, swill, ... \ thesaurus.reference.com/browse/swig - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
01:48:27 <ehird> Slereah: in less than 24 hours i'm 14
01:48:37 <ehird> GregorR: It's the soft drink I invented yesterday, remember? :P
01:48:44 <GregorR> Oh, I didn't know you named it :P
01:48:48 <ehird> Slereah: I'm probably legal somewhere!
01:48:59 <Slereah> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-azqXygCzO8
01:49:14 <GregorR> ehird: So long as you're having sex with <18yr olds, you're legal most everywhere in the US :P
01:49:28 <ehird> GregorR: uhh, you guys prosecute two minors fucking
01:49:38 <Slereah> I mean, most of the countries with low legal ages are rather religious
01:49:41 <ehird> at least if reddit isn't a pack of lies
01:49:46 <Slereah> And usually the age for homosexual sex isn't the same
01:49:52 <Slereah> So I'm not sure you're that legal
01:50:06 <ehird> What does ""age"" even mean anyway?!
01:50:14 <ehird> Maybe my CONCEPT has existed for 18 years.
01:50:29 <ehird> Anyway age of consent is 16 here in the UK, which seems about right
01:50:36 <ehird> Slereah: WHERE IS THIS SPECIFIED IN THE LAW
01:50:56 <ehird> The common people are NOT AWARE
01:51:33 <Slereah> Do you really want my dick this bad
01:51:52 <ehird> I am just fighting for truth, freedom and Chewbacca
01:53:09 <ehird> It's always bothered me how hard it is for a person to find out whether an action is legal or not
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01:53:16 <ehird> We're expected to just "use common sense", duh.
01:53:20 <ehird> Which is totally unhelpful.
01:53:29 <ehird> As clearly more than common sense is regulated.
01:54:28 <Slereah> ehird : Do you have an example
01:54:37 <ehird> An example of what
01:54:37 <oerjan> does anyone else see the logs strangely cut off?
01:54:54 <Slereah> Of such confusing laws for laymen
01:55:00 <ehird> they seem to be delayed
01:55:04 <ehird> Slereah: The point is that common sense isn't
01:55:21 <ehird> And there's literally no way to know if you're breaking the law apart from trawling through thousands upon thousands of pages of legalese
01:55:42 <Slereah> Yeah, but do you have like a real example
01:55:44 <ehird> We have this code to keep the peace, because if people think they'll be imprisoned for something, they won't do it
01:55:45 <kwertii> ehird: thus lawyers charge $200-500 an hour in the US
01:55:52 <ehird> Yet, nobody knows what these illegal things are
01:55:55 <ehird> so it doesn't work!
01:56:28 <kwertii> ehird: think it's a coincidence that so many politicians are lawyers?
01:58:47 <oerjan> ignorance of the law is no excuse - despite the fact a lot of people would be _unable_ to understand the law even if they tried :(
01:59:19 <oerjan> and the rest would be wasting a huge amount of resources on it
01:59:26 <ehird> I sure as fuck wouldn't; have you ever read any law?
01:59:31 <ehird> It's completely obfuscated and unorganised.
01:59:40 <ehird> Yeah, let's just say "This is repealed" 5 billion paragraphs later.
02:00:15 <pikhq> Despite the fact that it is undetermined what the law is.
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02:02:27 <Slereah> The worst thing is when the law changes and you don't notice
02:02:46 <ehird> I swear, officer, I didn't know sex with minors hadn't been legalised yet
02:10:39 <oklopol> not that i know how religious japan is
02:11:27 <Slereah> Japan is religious about rape
02:13:59 <kwertii> "pervert teacher tries to have sex with cute naive high school girls" seems to be a popular topic of light comedy on Japanese sitcoms
02:17:15 <ehird> age is a pretty silly cutoff
02:20:37 <oklopol> but it is, usually, nice and determinable
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02:21:14 <oklopol> well, really i don't see the need for a cutoff
02:22:11 <ehird> oklopol: do you think a seven year old can, intellectually, consent to sex with a manipulating 40 year old?
02:22:14 <oklopol> at least, again, morally, i guess it's useful as a law :P
02:22:40 <oklopol> so no cutoff is needed, because she'll never consent.
02:22:54 <ehird> oklopol: sure she will; she'll say "yes", then "I said yes"
02:23:08 <ehird> basically ou're just redefining consent
02:23:12 <ehird> which is kind of pointless
02:23:45 <GregorR> If a 14-year-old rapes a 25-year-old, is that statutory rape for the 25-year-old? :P
02:24:54 <oklopol> ehird: really i have nothing against a 7-yo consenting to sex with a 40-yo, i'd have loved that as a 7-yo, the actual damage is physical, that's what a 7-yo shouldn't be able to consent to.
02:24:56 <ehird> I have a new project
02:25:22 <ehird> oklopol: i think this falls under the same thing as your consensual killing thing
02:25:42 <ehird> (CAN A 7 YEAR OLD GIRL CONSENT TO A 40 YEAR OLD KILLING HER WITH HIS PENIS??????????????)
02:26:03 <ehird> ↑ i just ruined all prospects for my future employment
02:26:12 <oklopol> ehird: no, this is my craziness, the consensual killing was a valid point.
02:26:20 <ehird> pikhq: oklopol has said that he finds people who are traumatised by rape weird
02:26:23 <ehird> because he likes sex
02:26:40 <ehird> and would like to be raped
02:26:59 <pikhq> I don't think he gets that it's the "nonconsensual" bit that's traumatising.
02:27:06 <oklopol> yes, i've said i'd like to see if i'd get traumatized
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02:27:12 <oklopol> i haven't said i'd want to be raped
02:27:22 <ehird> oklopol: you've also said that you think the idea of being traumatised by it is weidr
02:27:25 <ehird> and fine, so i misremembered
02:28:57 <oklopol> if i wanted to get raped, getting raped wouldn't serve the purpose of me then being able to tell people that at least i didn't get traumatized by it.
02:30:05 <oklopol> really i don't believe anyone shouldn't do anything except by a rational choice
02:30:48 <oklopol> this is definitely not something i do, but i think others should judge me for not doing it
02:30:55 <oklopol> tricky stuff, my brain hurts.
02:31:18 <ehird> oklopol: i suspect that you just believe this shit to be weird on the interwebs :P
02:32:18 * Sgeo wonders if it might be possible to design a 3d web that's somewhat sane. Of course, it would be much easier and saner to leave the 2d web and have embeddable 3d when needed, but still
02:32:28 <oklopol> ehird: well not exactly, but yes, i'm not nearly as open about this stuff irl :)
02:33:39 <oklopol> for instance if a girl tells me she's been raped, i usually try to empathize with her to some extent
02:34:04 <oklopol> and not, you know, tell her she's a sucker for complaining about it
02:36:20 <Sgeo> oklopol, the idea of an environment where you explore information and other typical web activities in 3d. It's a sucky idea that SL and other 3d things have been pushing for
02:36:31 <Sgeo> But I wonder if it's possible to make a not-so-sucky thing
02:36:54 <oklopol> do you mean the gui part, or the actual networking part
02:37:07 <oklopol> by "actual networking", which made no sense
02:37:24 <oklopol> of what you can reach from where
02:37:30 <oklopol> hyperlinks let you explore the graph directly
02:37:46 <Sgeo> I guess the graph.
02:38:05 <oklopol> embedding stuff in R^3 will only make exploration slower
02:38:30 <oklopol> the gui, on the other hand, can be made 3d without any loss of that, you could even have like walking avatars and shit, if you used portals for hyperlinks
02:38:45 <oklopol> my brain is kinda slow atm, probably not making much sense
02:38:52 <oklopol> i'll continue reading random shit ->
02:43:34 * ehird starts settin' up an opengenera vm
02:43:35 <Sgeo> GameTap is moving to a plugin model. In the process, they removed various features, and support for OS/X
02:43:52 <Sgeo> They wrote it as OS/X
02:43:56 <ehird> the lisp machine OS, ported to some weird 64 bit architecture on linux
02:44:19 <ehird> oh brother, 0 peers?
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04:52:23 <ehird> i'm installing opengenera in a vm
04:52:33 <ehird> i wanna found a $language machine company. you guys can join.
04:54:22 <pikhq> Where $language != C?
04:55:16 <ehird> we'll make a bunch of hardware. and an OS. :P
04:59:12 <ehird> Lisp, Haskell, Graphreducing, some array language, ...
05:00:35 <ehird> But it must have an awesome OS, orthogonal persistence, hardware GC, a high-level CPU in general (near 1:1 source:cpu mapping, modulo structure and optimisations), ...
05:03:19 <ehird> The business model: get a bunch of funding from, oh, Y Combinator or someone, then sell machines somehow. :P
05:04:34 <pikhq> Get a bunch of funding, and start the magic money siphon?
05:04:56 <ehird> Twitter's business model is "Get a bunch of funding and then, um, so, about this new feature we added!"
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05:06:47 <ehird> It's a shame that there isn't really a market for such machines, except ...
05:07:35 <ehird> Actually, I'm pretty sure there are a few niche markets where they'll pay a ton to get systems that aren't offered by anything else; I remember Lisp Machines getting in them, but I'm tired so can't remember.
05:42:00 <Sgeo> "Like many companies, Cyc has ambitions to use the Cyc natural language understanding tools to parse the entire internet to extract structured data.[3]"
05:42:06 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is that a BAD idea?
05:42:22 <ehird> (a) Cyc is bullshit.
05:42:33 <ehird> Sure, Friendly AI is an important consideration.
05:42:45 <ehird> But Luddite fearmongering "I saw it in a movie" anti-AI sentiment is evil.
05:43:35 <Sgeo> I meant, there's no trustworthy place on the Internet it can look.
05:43:53 <ehird> There is no other place it can look to in the world.
05:43:55 <Sgeo> Couldn't someone just say, write a page of absolute BS, and have that be included?
05:44:06 <ehird> Yes, because it will trust every web page totally!
05:44:16 <ehird> The internet is the most accurate portrayal of humanity that exists.
05:44:25 <ehird> Its sum can be trusted as much as we can.
05:45:02 <Sgeo> How is Cyc BS?
05:45:28 <ehird> "If we define some basic logical primitives, and a way to enter fact tuples, all we have to do is enter a few hundred thousand and BAM! Strong AI!"
05:45:41 <ehird> "Also, who cares about friendliness. I'm sure it'll like us."
05:46:20 <Sgeo> It's data may be used by AIs, but who said that it is an AI, or if it is, that it has any concept of actually taking actions itself?
05:46:33 <ehird> Also, its data is worthless.
05:47:12 <ehird> It's funny, because Eurisko, despite only working with prodding for humans, showed good promise.
05:47:22 <ehird> Cyc is a massive step back from that; stupid Lenat.
05:47:33 <ehird> Hey, it's been going since 1984, wonder how that's going.
05:48:18 <ehird> Anyway, Cyc is basically... Prolog.
05:48:20 <ehird> (#$capitalCity #$France #$Paris)
05:48:26 <ehird> capitalCity(france,paris)
05:48:31 <ehird> (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUBSET)
05:48:31 <ehird> (#$genls ?SUBSET ?SUPERSET))
05:48:32 <ehird> (#$isa ?OBJ ?SUPERSET))
05:49:12 <ehird> isa(Obj,Set) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Superset)
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05:49:46 <Sgeo> isa(Obj,Superset) :- subset(Set,Superset), isa(Obj,Set)
05:50:15 <ehird> point is, Cyc is prolog with a million facts and nowhere to go
05:50:37 <Sgeo> Is there something wrong with being Prolog-equivalent?
05:51:01 <Sgeo> Are there any Prolog fact...thingies with similar amounts of information?
05:51:09 <ehird> No. Is there something wrong with taking Prolog, giving it awkward syntax, rebranding it as an "AI inference engine", claiming it's the next big thing in AI, starting a company based upon it, and riding it since 1984?
05:52:57 <oklopol> in 1984, it was slightly less stupid to claim that would result in an AI.
05:53:12 <ehird> his previous system
05:53:20 <ehird> sure, it didn't work all that well, and he had to help it
05:53:24 <ehird> but it made useful deductions
05:53:28 <ehird> and competed in a tournament well
05:53:32 <ehird> more than cyc has ever done or ever will
05:56:53 <Sgeo> "Lenat envisions ultimately coupling the Cyc knowledgebase with the Eurisko discovery engine."
05:56:59 <Sgeo> That makes some sense, kind of
05:57:10 <ehird> Sgeo: I don't see why you're determined to defend Cyc
05:57:23 <Sgeo> Because I played with it once.
05:57:36 <ehird> Could have guessed as much.
05:58:57 <Sgeo> OpenCyc web access thingy is down right now :(
05:59:07 <ehird> What a terrible loss.
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06:23:59 <Sgeo> Are there alternatives to Cyc?
06:27:52 <ehird> Any decent AI project.
06:28:00 <ehird> Woohoo! OpenGenera runs in a VM!
06:31:05 <Sgeo> http://osdir.com/ml/ai.prolog.swi/2002-06/msg00039.html
06:31:22 <Sgeo> Prolog interface to Cyc
06:31:32 <Sgeo> ehird, does it need to be, in order to be cool?
06:32:31 <Sgeo> I remember adding myself as a cyclist
06:33:42 <ehird> Have fun supporting a business that's holding back AI.
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06:48:59 <ehird> AnMaster: I got opengenera booted
06:49:04 <ehird> just trying to get its nfs working
06:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird, oh also, how did you get save world after site definition to work
06:49:14 <AnMaster> because that is where I failed
06:49:15 <ehird> haven't got that far
06:49:27 <ehird> read things in the comments about it though
06:49:32 <AnMaster> ehird, basically it seemed to hang there
06:49:38 <ehird> the config interface for the site is better than any interface i've used so far
06:50:18 <ehird> discoverable command line
06:50:30 <ehird> nope, this is pre-nfs
06:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you manage to save the world after the site definition
06:50:53 <ehird> it's something to do with x11 i think
06:57:22 <ehird> ok, let's try this
06:57:46 <ehird> just getting things working
06:57:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so save world worked? if so tell me what you did
06:58:04 <ehird> shut up, I'll tell you when i get ther
06:59:54 <ehird> i wish i could middle click
07:03:15 <ehird> 7:03am... sleep soon
07:06:46 <ehird> woot, it talks to nfs
07:06:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why can't you middle click
07:06:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is this before you saved site right?
07:07:05 <ehird> about to save site
07:07:14 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, tell if you get THAT step working
07:07:22 <AnMaster> then is able to run opengenera after
07:07:34 <AnMaster> from the now saved site and world stuff
07:08:09 <ehird> It's frozen after "System Shutdown..."; methinks this is correct.
07:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, same issue as I hit iir
07:08:38 <AnMaster> and not able to load the saved world thingy
07:09:28 <ehird> Well, it it didn't save at lal
07:09:47 <ehird> The only way I was able to save worlds was to use an early version of Xorg. In my case, running a Xubuntu dapper (6.06) virtual machine did the trick. Thanks to the “painfully learned facts” section here: http://www.cliki.net/VLM_on_Linux?source
07:09:56 <ehird> I have got thing working, including save world.
07:09:56 <ehird> Install details; vmware, ubuntu 6.06 server (amd64)
07:09:56 <ehird> manually installed basic xwindows from the package repositories.
07:10:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. so you are saying it breaks under newer X?
07:10:27 <ehird> AnMaster: can you remind me to do it tomorrow
07:10:38 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, I'm going to uni soon
07:10:58 <ehird> AnMaster: you, you person
07:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know when tomorrow is in your private timezone :P
07:11:02 <ehird> and your real sleep schedules
07:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: like, when i next join.
07:11:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well likely I'm already asleep then ;P
07:11:36 <ehird> more like circa 16:00
07:11:52 <AnMaster> might not be home yet then. not sure
07:12:15 <AnMaster> well left uni, probably in car on my way home
07:14:25 <ehird> i want a button to make me sleep right now
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07:17:49 <AnMaster> Have a nice day everyone! Bye.
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07:25:54 * ehird sets up ubutnu server 6.06
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07:32:54 <ehird> lisp machines are funnnnnn
07:40:02 <ehird> i will have genera
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08:04:12 <ehird> "This will be the most confusing orgy I've ever had with myself."
08:09:34 <Sgeo> Who won't a modern Ubuntu work for OpenGenera?
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08:13:30 <Sgeo> Ah, someone reported that some "world" thing works in 6.06
08:13:35 <Sgeo> What's a "world"?
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11:57:13 <AnMaster> "Thunderbird is a lightweight mail/news/RSS client, based on the Mozilla suite. It supports different mail accounts (POP, IMAP, Gmail), has an integrated learning Spam filter, and offers easy organization of mails with tagging and virtual folders. Also, more features can be added by installing extensions."
11:57:20 <AnMaster> that is the ubuntu package description
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13:01:46 <AnMaster> I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips.
13:01:54 <AnMaster> almost no http traffic for example
13:02:00 <AnMaster> oh and it is an open network so XD
13:04:50 <AnMaster> oh and sometimes something called WLCCP which googling seems to suggest is something to make multiple Cisco access points show up as one...
13:06:04 <AnMaster> not odd my laptop wakes up so much on this wlan what will all broadcasts for mdns and such
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16:15:03 <AnMaster> another thing I found on the university wlan today was a CUPS printer server.
16:16:38 <AnMaster> which broadcast info about 7 printers
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16:35:57 <AnMaster> oh and the MAC indicates it is a Mac as well ;)
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16:43:27 <AnMaster> oh hm... that one broadcast some SMB discovery packages too... and those indicates it is a personal laptop. That is misconfigured to run a public cups server heh.
16:43:54 <AnMaster> (btw for nooga: I used tcpdump for about 30 minutes on the university wlan, now I'm analysing the results)
16:44:21 <AnMaster> and I found for example a misconfigured apple laptop that acts as a public cups server for seven printers
16:44:52 <AnMaster> nooga, oh and there are lots of clients using those "discovery protocols". Like MDNS, SSDP, and so on
16:45:17 <nooga> but no distributed renderers huh?
16:45:21 <AnMaster> oh and there are some CISCO access points talking to each others
16:46:04 <AnMaster> nooga, anyway, my laptop recieved on average 20 packages per second, about half was from my ssh tunnel back home
16:46:16 <AnMaster> (I was just doing IRC forwarding over it
16:46:48 <AnMaster> nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan!
16:47:49 <AnMaster> MDNS shows the hostname of that misconfigured mac
16:48:31 <AnMaster> _workstation._tcp.local: type PTR, class IN, Tai Chis PowerBook G4 12" [00:0d:93:af:61:f0]._workstation._tcp.local
16:49:13 <AnMaster> nooga, as a test I did a MDNS broadcast query to check for how many would respond. Lots did.
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17:01:06 <AnMaster> intersting. Looking at the statistics in wireshark show that I saw way more UDP than TCP packets
17:02:03 <AnMaster> and 85% of the TCP packets were to/from myself, while ~70% of the UDP ones were broad cast, and only about 2% of the remaining ones were to me.
17:03:09 <AnMaster> which was basically some DNS traffic
17:04:41 <AnMaster> about 57% were IPv4 packets, 24% were IPv6, and 4% were non-IP. 13% of the non-IP ones were ARP.
17:05:44 <AnMaster> then there was some "Logical Link Control" and some Cisco stuff
17:07:34 <nooga> maybe someone is playing RA2
17:09:03 <nooga> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert_2
17:09:10 <nooga> you've never played that?
17:09:35 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Red_Alert_2
17:15:46 <nooga> seems that you have busy network there
17:16:01 <nooga> even during summer vacations
17:25:21 <AnMaster> nooga, and no I never played there
17:25:37 <AnMaster> nooga, oh good point, it will be really bad next week
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18:34:17 <ehird> 03:57:33 <AnMaster> thunderbird... lightweight?
18:34:17 <ehird> metacity claims the same :)
18:34:46 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, no idea about metacity. Haven't looked at the details of the window manager
18:34:49 <ehird> 05:01:46 <AnMaster> I decided to try wireshark on the university lan. Just checking what went past me. Conclusion: Lots of clients asking what went on (MDNS, SMB browser election, SSDP, ...). Every now and then some DHCP server shouts "who has ip x.x.x.x" for about 50 ips.
18:34:49 <ehird> this is likely against your university's policy
18:34:58 <ehird> AnMaster: well, in code it's like 50,000 lines; in features it's very gnome
18:35:07 <ehird> works fine, though
18:35:34 <AnMaster> ehird, about policys, I didn't do any active scanning.
18:35:45 <ehird> http://incise.org/not-so-tiny-window-managers.html 49,787 lines when pentium 4s, linux 2.6.7 and gcc 3.3.4 were common
18:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, just sat there listening
18:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you're generally meant to not look at any other traffic apart from yours.
18:36:04 <ehird> for obvious reasons
18:36:31 <ehird> 08:46:48 <AnMaster> nooga, that means about 10 pointless wakeups from sleep state per second when connected to that wlan!
18:36:31 <ehird> it wakes up on every packet?
18:37:06 <AnMaster> ehird, to tell software to process it I assume?
18:37:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and most were multicast.
18:37:24 <ehird> the technical details are irrelevan
18:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well, sleeping as in, CPU was in C3
18:37:28 <ehird> it's still other people's traffic
18:37:45 <ehird> and their durned cpu states
18:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: right, I wouldn't expect it to be processing packets like that!
18:39:28 <ehird> i have an urge for porridge
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18:40:38 <AnMaster> ehird, btw. I can listen to all wlan traffic outside campus as well. Since it uses an open network, and I can see a few other ones in some of the buildings.
18:40:48 <AnMaster> I would assume I could just as well listen to it outside
18:40:55 <ehird> C'mon, look up the policy.
18:41:03 <ehird> I'm absolutely certain it's forbidden
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18:41:19 <ehird> Sure, they all say "Ohh use HTTPS for sensitive stuff since it's open"
18:41:25 <ehird> But also "Don't spy on others' traffic
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well, only reason I was doing this was debugging the silly wakeups
18:42:20 <ehird> Disable "Why don't we look at EVERY PACKET in our CPU dreams!" mode.
18:42:28 <ehird> Maybe they're like sheep.
18:42:34 <ehird> "1 packet jumping over the firewall..."
18:42:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean promisc mode? well, it wakes up even in non-promisc mode it seems
18:42:42 <ehird> "Two packets jumping over the firewall..."
18:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess the wlan hardware is just rather stupid
18:43:04 <ehird> See ↑ for the TRUTH.
18:44:30 <ehird> you know, snap4's mapping of rubout to delete is stupid
18:44:33 <ehird> one, it does BACKSPACING
18:44:38 <ehird> two, it's where caps lock is
18:44:42 <ehird> at least put it on tab or something
18:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, managed to save the world?
18:44:50 <ehird> installing ubuntu 6.06 server
18:45:52 <ehird> Wipe the 6GB IDE harddrive, fuck yeah!
18:47:09 <ehird> FUCK YOU ANCIENT UBUNTU INSTALL
18:47:20 <ehird> "Because you chose the US as your location, obviously I should only give you the option of US timezones."
18:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you select US as location then
18:48:13 <ehird> because i wanted the "standard" stuff
18:48:18 <ehird> instead of some iffy UK localisation
18:48:52 * AnMaster uses kismet to scan for wireless networks at home
18:49:08 <AnMaster> no clients seen so far. Lots of access points though
18:50:13 <ehird> i love unprotected wifi
18:50:24 <ehird> it's like free love, but more relevant to today's post-bloggist twitterbook age.
18:50:39 <ehird> may a thousand baby instant messages bloom.
18:51:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I somehow feel that analogy is not 100% correct
18:52:05 <ehird> i spent a few seconds trying to reply to that
18:53:26 * ehird watches bill o'reilly get all worked up about jon stewart
19:06:33 <ehird> http://www.smartwikisearch.com/
19:07:30 <ehird> [["Scheme" should designate two separate but compatible languages: "small" and "large" Scheme]]
19:18:48 <ehird> [[If you repeatedly dismiss the screen saver less than one minute after it starts on Windows Vista or later, the operating system says, "Oh, sorry. I thought there was nobody there, but obviously there is. You're probably reading an information-dense document or using your laptop as a flashlight or clock, and you want the screen to stay on even though you aren't generating any input. I'll hold off the screen saver for a little while for you."]]
19:18:54 <ehird> Hey, Windows being clever and usable.
19:25:10 <ehird> AnMaster: are startx and xinit in different packages from xorg usually?
19:25:49 <ehird> in ubuntu 6.06 at least
19:26:12 <ehird> "error opening security policy file" X_X
19:30:51 <AnMaster> and seriously, someone who even can't use WEP?
19:32:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "at hope"?
19:32:59 <ehird> Also, most people don't care.
19:33:39 <ehird> Firstly, not all that many people hijack wifi; secondly, it probably won't affect them even if they did; thirdly, the annoyance of configuring it and all computers they have is huge.
19:42:22 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, they don't even seem to do anything interesting ;P
19:46:57 <ehird> grr, what is the package to install to get "just make x working, dammit" :P
19:47:19 <AnMaster> okay I think I found the optimal frequency to use. No one seems to use channel 8
19:47:33 <AnMaster> only one using channel 7 and one using channel 9
19:47:42 <ehird> Unless you have a draft-n router, AnMaster, worrying about speed is kind of pointless.
19:47:48 <ehird> Also, 7 will overlap, iirc.,
19:47:48 <AnMaster> while pretty much everything else is dense
19:48:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I'm on 1 atm and I get another strong one on it in my room
19:48:28 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/21/steampunk-mouse-now-with-100-per-cent-more-skull/ A mouse made of brass and a sheep's skull.
19:48:29 <AnMaster> so yes I'm going to try another to see if I get disconnected randomly less often
19:49:54 <ehird> http://www.instructables.com/id/Mouse-Mouse!/ A mouse made out ofa mouse.
19:50:04 <ehird> Reminds me of that computer mod; some furry animal.
19:50:17 <ehird> Oh, taxidermy + computing; when will you cease to entertain?
19:51:06 <ehird> Here: http://www.instructables.com/id/Compubeaver---%3E-How-to-case-mod-a-beaver---in-29-e/
19:52:46 <ehird> Yes, but the idea of using the mouse mouse with the beaver 'puter isn't old!
19:54:39 <AnMaster> "This is not the page you're looking for."
19:58:53 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/20/video-concert-hands-teaches-you-to-play-piano-whether-you-want/
20:02:11 <ehird> don't care awesome
20:02:25 <AnMaster> "Locked at the wrists onto a sliding mechanical bar"
20:02:38 <AnMaster> that prevents playing properly anything advanced I guess
20:03:10 <AnMaster> ehird, basically I'm saying you need to move hands pretty much freely to play a piano well
20:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: it moves them for you
20:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, the bar too? and what about taking a whole octave in one hand
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20:04:06 <AnMaster> you have too small hands for that anyway
20:04:39 <ehird> ais523: what package do i need to install on ubuntu to get the base xorg env?
20:04:48 <ais523> hmm... I don't know offhand
20:04:50 <ehird> xorg-server plus xinit plus xfonts-base didn't work
20:04:53 <ais523> let me run an apt-cache search
20:04:55 <ehird> it can't find a security fil
20:04:59 <ehird> (this is ubuntu server 6.06)
20:05:05 <ehird> (but i assume it hasn't changed that much)
20:05:49 <ais523> hmm... xorg-server doesn't even exist in 9.04, although there's an xserver-xorg
20:06:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_OS / talk about non-notable
20:06:37 <ais523> 1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver-xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)1:7.4~5ubuntu18 - xserver-xorg-core (2 2:1.5.99.901) xserver-
20:06:38 <ais523> xorg-video-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-video-5 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-all (16 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-4 (0 (null)) xserver-xorg-input-evdev (0 (null)) hal (0 (null)) libc6 (2 2.3.4) debconf (18 0.5) debconf-2.0 (0 (null)) xkb-data (2 1.4) x11-xkb-utils (0 (null)) libgl1-mesa-dri (0 (null)) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11)
20:06:40 <ais523> xserver-common (3 7) ) udev (0 (null)) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7) xserver-xfree86 (3 6.8.2.dfsg.1-1) x11-common (3 1:7.3+11) xserver-common (3 7)
20:06:46 <ais523> that's a list of dependencies for xserver-xorg on this version
20:06:57 <ehird> err, I installed xserver-xorg
20:07:15 <ehird> but it errors out trying to find a security file
20:07:26 <ais523> what specifically is the error?
20:07:30 <ehird> "error opening security policy file /etc/X11/xserver/SecurityPolicy"
20:08:28 <ais523> ah, apparently a default security policy is installed in /usr/share/doc/examples/SecurityPolicy
20:08:41 <ais523> and you need to copy it to the right location yourself, it's a bug or weirdness or something
20:08:54 <ehird> still today, or just 6.06?
20:09:01 <ais523> that was a result of a Google search
20:09:09 <ehird> probably not today
20:09:11 <ais523> and not still today, as the required file doesn't exist on my laptop
20:09:36 <ais523> dated June 1st, 2006, so 6.06 seems very plausible
20:09:59 <ehird> ok, other problems now,
20:10:09 <ehird> it quits after showing the black/white and X cursor
20:10:12 <ehird> relevant error might be
20:10:29 <ehird> No matching visual for __GLcontextMode with visual class = 1 (32774), nplanes = 4294967295
20:10:32 <ehird> repeated four times
20:10:34 <ehird> or the one befor that
20:10:41 <ehird> Couldn't open RGB_DB '/etc/X11/rgb'
20:10:52 <ais523> do you have an OpenGL-capable driver installed for your graphics card?
20:11:06 <ais523> that's the sort of thing server installs don't come with by default
20:11:22 <ehird> My graphics card is the VirtualBox thingy.
20:11:27 <ehird> But it shouldn't need OpenGL.
20:12:01 <ais523> well, the error message above implies it was trying to use OpenGL, possibly as a fallback due to a missing driver
20:12:07 <AnMaster> Maybe I should get a wlan card that supports external antenna and then make a cantenna?
20:12:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Or just buy an antenna
20:12:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well, but I need one where I can connect an external one
20:12:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can buy USB wireless cards that have big-ass antennas
20:13:01 <ehird> ais523: well, new ubuntu desktop versions work fine, yet installing virtualbox guest additions changes the way the display works
20:13:11 <ehird> and gives resolutions >1024x768
20:13:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as long as it works with kismet and aircrack-ng...
20:13:20 <ehird> so obviously there isn't a driver in ubuntu for my SPECIFIC "card"
20:14:00 <ais523> ehird: installing a driver for the card that the server thinks it's connected to is likely to help, I suspect
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20:15:38 <ehird_> ais523: well, generic svga
20:15:46 <ehird_> but surely installing xorg installed those
20:15:49 <ehird_> it DID install xorg drivers
20:15:52 <ehird_> though perhaps not opengl ones
20:17:18 <ehird_> i'm showing up in tunes logs at least
20:19:24 <ais523> ehird_: there's a load of xserver-xorg-video-* drivers
20:19:33 <ehird_> yes, and xserver-xorg installs a fuckton
20:19:37 <ehird_> presumably including generic ones
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20:21:17 <ehird_> I think it's perhaps the rgb database
20:21:28 <ehird_> as the gl things may just be warnings
20:22:05 <ehird_> "startx" will exit after the desktop if you have no WM, right?
20:22:22 <ehird_> well, what the fuck...
20:22:23 <ais523> no, IIRC it just pops up a server and does nothing
20:22:25 <ehird_> $ apt-cache search twm
20:22:42 <ais523> ehird_: twm's in my repo, at least
20:22:51 <ais523> have you done an apt-get update ever?
20:22:51 <ehird_> Yes, thus "what the fuck".
20:22:59 <ehird_> Yes. I'll do it again.
20:23:12 <ehird_> ais523: maybe they stripped down the 6.06 repos
20:23:14 <ehird_> due to being ancient and all
20:23:36 <ehird_> how do i get a count of all packages in the db?
20:24:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, I'm able to see 44 networks with kismet from various points in two rooms
20:24:22 <AnMaster> in any one place: usually 4-6 networks
20:24:24 <ehird_> you must live in a very big city
20:24:32 <ehird_> well, dense city, at least
20:24:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: clearly you're getting wifi cancer
20:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, an area of free standing houses
20:24:50 <ehird_> from all those uber-strong routers
20:24:56 <FireFly> Wait, in one place, 4 networks?
20:25:04 <AnMaster> most are quite low signal level
20:25:05 <ehird_> i see like 4 networks from this machine
20:25:16 <AnMaster> I doubt I could connect to them
20:25:21 <AnMaster> without a good external antenna
20:25:23 <FireFly> I think I can usually see two from here, sometimes one
20:25:41 <FireFly> Uh, in my house, in a suburb of Stockholm
20:25:44 <AnMaster> small/mid-sized town (20 000 inhabitants)
20:26:10 <FireFly> Apparently my suburb has a population of 14 250
20:26:14 <FireFly> According to swedish wikipedia
20:26:18 <ehird_> ais523: name a common but not so common package?
20:26:39 <AnMaster> SSID: Sakersurfzon_Bredbansbolaget
20:27:01 <ehird_> (Please Would Religious People Stop Trying to Defend Their Beliefs Logically-Related WTF of the day: "I think one thing I have learned regarding atheists is they try and put so much logic into their arguments that common sense and reason get thrown out the window.")
20:27:21 <AnMaster> for the English speaking people
20:27:44 <FireFly> Wardriving in Centralen (the Stockholm Central Station) with my DS was funny
20:27:45 <AnMaster> Secure surf zone_NameOfMajorISPInSweden
20:28:03 <AnMaster> oh I picked up a WLAN network from a passing train just now
20:28:16 <ehird_> "I NEED TO TWEET THIS!!"
20:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird_, like 1 km away already
20:29:16 <ehird_> ("Again with the probability theory. […] That is just what it is a theory." ;_;)
20:29:36 <AnMaster> brb, going to some other rooms to check for more networks there. Oh and this was all from second floor indoors (may try outdoors tomorrow, is currently raining heavily, like most of today)
20:30:07 <ehird_> i hate #ubuntu with a fiery passion
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20:31:36 <ais523> ehird_: #ubuntu is generally rather useless for anyone but a newbie, although I don't mind it
20:31:44 <ais523> I go there sometimes to answer questions, but I've never tried asking one
20:32:04 <ehird_> there should be an #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer
20:32:14 <ais523> my client actually autolinked all that
20:32:18 <ais523> although, presumably joining it will fail
20:32:27 <ais523> [Error] #ubuntu-no-i-am-not-a-retard-and-would-prefer-being-in-a-channel-without-retarded-questions-dammit-i-just-want-a-simple-answer is currently unavailable.
20:32:30 <ehird_> of course, if I repeat my now long-forgotten question now, the idiot brigade will start -
20:32:45 <ehird_> "BE PATIENT! WAIT UNTIL QUANTUM FLUCTUATIONS PLANT THE NOW-LOST MEMORY OF YOUR QUESTION IN THEIR MIND SPONTANEOUSLY!"
20:33:12 <ais523> is there a #ubuntu-server, I wonder?
20:33:23 <ehird_> there's an #ubuntu-server
20:33:29 <ehird_> but 6.06 is more like -345
20:33:46 <ehird_> ais523: unfortunately, my question is not server specific.
20:34:14 <ais523> well, you are on a server distro, and it's likely to have a lower idiot proportion
20:34:22 <ehird_> "For general (not server specific) support visit #ubuntu"
20:34:48 <ais523> well, I suppose it is server-specific, in that it would work on the desktop distros due to being preinstalled
20:36:51 <ehird_> ais523: you said something about less idiots
20:36:52 <ehird_> [20:35] _ruben: you're in luck .. ubuntu server doesnt have any window managers due to lack of X ;)
20:37:01 <ehird_> It's not like they use the same repositories or anything.
20:37:16 <ais523> maybe they didn't use the same repos back then?
20:37:44 <ehird_> [20:37] _ruben: yeah .. but its not really supported (by the server team) .. as it pretty much turns your server into a desktop
20:40:10 <ehird_> [20:39] ehird_: hmm, oh
20:40:11 <ehird_> [20:39] ehird_: universe is commented out by default
20:40:11 <ehird_> [20:40] ehird_: how embarrassing :) sorry
20:41:25 * ehird_ reinstalls from the alternate cd
20:41:40 <ehird_> ais523: they seemed very keen to get me off the server version, I wonder why :-)
20:42:48 -!- Asztal has quit (".").
20:45:45 <AnMaster> the two extra were both from other rooms at the second floor
20:59:32 * ehird_ installs Ubuntu alternate 6.06
20:59:38 <ehird_> this time it'll work :P
20:59:58 <ehird_> I downloaded the non-64 bit version
21:01:55 <AnMaster> ehird_, you need 64-bit or non-64-bit?
21:02:12 <ehird_> since opengenera ran on 64-bit unix, albeit not x86
21:02:22 <ehird_> due to the 36-bit thing
21:02:28 <ehird_> emulating on 32-bit would be horrifically slow
21:03:54 * ehird_ reads someone try to defend a literal interpretation of the 6 day creation of the universe with relativity
21:03:59 * ehird_ laments the lack of popcorn
21:05:04 <ais523> one of my friends had trolling creationism forums as his favourite hobby
21:05:23 <ehird_> ais523: you can't troll someone too fanatical, as they reject logic as a valid method of argumentation
21:05:31 <ehird_> it's a very delicate balance
21:05:36 <ais523> he wasn't trolling to convince them, just popcorn-style
21:05:51 <ais523> it wasn't trolling as in 'giving logical arguments', but as in 'trying to incite a flamewar'
21:06:16 <ehird_> yes, but you can't do that if their response to anything opposing is "Yes, but that is not true because the Bible says so, which is simply true and therefore this argument is over."
21:07:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since we seem to have a habit of swapping these... merged together a few pictures from Helsinki recently, http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/
21:09:39 <ehird_> wtf, in helsinki all buildings aren't made out of awesomely transparent glass?
21:10:17 <fizzie> These are mostly from the slightly older bits of town.
21:10:24 <ehird_> ahh, before they discovered glass
21:10:57 <fizzie> Yes; we don't believe in substance reuse, we always re-invent everything.
21:11:33 <ehird_> in the beginning, god invented light
21:12:05 <ehird_> fizzie: anyway are you finns really that bad at driving or is that just an urban myth
21:12:12 <ehird_> where they stop driving
21:12:22 <ehird_> kinda seems like a cruel joke at you guys' expense
21:14:24 <AnMaster> you know all those dlink ones ehird_?
21:14:46 <ehird_> thank you, AnMaster, I cannot comprehend this "backwards".
21:14:49 <ehird_> i needed it spelling out
21:17:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, another rather silly is "IngetSadantNatvark" which (assuming the missing dots are added to make it "IngetSådantNätverk" which is the only probable interpretation): NoSuchNetwork
21:17:54 <ehird_> Rename your wireless network to "(name of swedish secret services) tracking station"
21:18:09 <ehird_> instantly, everybody stops leeching wifi off everyone in the area!
21:18:35 <ehird_> Your secret services offer spas?
21:18:49 <HackEgo> * watering place: a health resort near a spring or at the seaside \ * resort hotel: a fashionable hotel usually in a resort area \ * health spa: a place of business with equipment and facilities for exercising and improving physical fitness
21:18:56 <HackEgo> * The Swedish Security Service (Skerhetspolisen, literally "the Security Police", abbreviated Spo), former name Rikspolisstyrelsens ... \ [19]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spo \ * The SAPO (short for Samocinn poctac) was the first Czechoslovak computer. It operated in the years 1957-1960 in Vzkumn stav ...
21:19:09 <ehird_> Wow, someone networked an early computer!
21:19:13 <ehird_> AnMaster: "Sparstation"
21:19:21 <fizzie> WLANs around here currently: "anninwlan", "Tompan WLAN", "SAATANA", "wlan-ap". There are more "visible" in the other room, I think. ("anninwlan" is literally "Anni's wlan" while "Tompan WLAN" is obviously "Tomppa's WLAN"; and fi:saatana is en:devil, used usually as a swearword, like "damn".)
21:19:30 <AnMaster> ehird_, so that would be railway station
21:19:40 <ehird_> Chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga WOO WOO
21:19:40 <AnMaster> if you seriously mistranslates it a few times
21:21:36 <ehird_> Just misinterpret my keypresses
21:22:51 <AnMaster> ehird_, and there is another train :D
21:23:13 <ehird_> Now it's complaining that I need to do noapic, despite not doing so last time.
21:23:17 <ehird_> Nondeterministic VMs...
21:24:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, was kernel upgraded inside?
21:24:56 <AnMaster> because, iirc ioapic in virtualbox is buggy
21:24:56 <ehird_> As a result, I psychologically distrust VirtualBox more.
21:25:02 <AnMaster> but only recent kernels expose this
21:25:19 -!- coppro has joined.
21:31:41 <AnMaster> iirc thinkpads has quite decent antennas built in. Compared to many other laptops that is
21:31:58 <AnMaster> of course, far from the quality of an external antenna
21:33:26 <ehird_> with the x200 you get two antennas in the display area
21:33:43 <ehird_> dunno if they're in the base too or not
21:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird_, an external, directional, antenna will always beat it
21:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, no. quite a far bit better
21:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, also, this laptop must have at least two antennas, since it does support pre-n
21:34:46 <AnMaster> and that requires more than one antenna iirc
21:35:15 <ehird_> IEEE 802.11n - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
21:35:15 <ehird_> Work on the 802.11n standard dates back to 2004. The draft is expected to be published in January 2010, but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', ...
21:35:24 <ehird_> I've always heard draft-n
21:35:31 <ehird_> draft is expected to be published in January 2010,[9] but major manufacturers are now releasing 'pre-N', 'draft n' or 'MIMO-based' products based on early specs
21:35:34 <ehird_> but draft-n is a lot more common
21:36:42 <ehird_> http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / have I mentioned this keyboard is beautifu
21:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird_, I have seen pre-N a lot more than draft N
21:37:06 <ehird_> Maybe you dirty swedes hate words.
21:37:23 <ehird_> Dirty swedes do swirty deeds.
21:37:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, do you consider 17.5 W a lot when using kismet in channel hopping mode?
21:38:00 <AnMaster> varies between 17.0W and 17.5W
21:38:03 <ehird_> Not if you're using the system.
21:38:16 <ehird_> Your system will probably draw like 30W at actual full load.
21:38:23 <ehird_> and like 40-50W at theoretical full load of every component
21:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird_, well tested mostly full load, both cores busy re-compressing pngs
21:39:19 <ehird_> Yes, well, png compression isn't exactly a really strenuous task, nor does it exercise the GPU.
21:39:33 <AnMaster> but it does quite a bit of load on the cpu
21:39:52 <ehird_> Well, if 25W is typical full CPU load, then I imagine more like 35W for CPU + GPU load.
21:39:52 <AnMaster> which basically brute forces the compression parameters
21:40:15 <ehird_> I wonder why people bother with that.
21:40:20 <ehird_> Seems like a waste of time.
21:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird_, possibly, intel graphics use quite a lot less power than ati or nvidia chipsets
21:40:52 <ehird_> AnMaster: Not nvidia integrated GPUs.
21:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird_, worse than intel still iirc
21:41:36 <AnMaster> there is even a page on thinkwiki about it
21:41:42 <ehird_> Well, the nvidia embedded gpus are good nowadays.
21:42:22 <AnMaster> I don't believe these columns...
21:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird_, kismet fails at aligning columns correctly to the column headers
21:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, that's what YOUR MOM said
21:43:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, nah, in the cage, you know S&M
21:44:01 <ehird_> (THAT'S WHAT SHE GOT.)
21:44:09 <ehird_> I feel a sudden urge to kill myself.
21:44:13 <AnMaster> ehird_, unknown idiom detected: "ice burn"
21:44:27 <nooga> ehird_: do it faggot
21:45:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, is http://zem.fi/~fis/pcity/p_view.jpg merged or is there a headless person on the street?
21:52:47 <ehird_> does anyone know how to prettyprint some xml
21:54:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:54:38 <AnMaster> there we go. Channel 13 is a lot better than the other ones
22:01:15 <Gracenotes> I feel so bad about giving local variables meaningful names in Haskell :/ But I suppose I must bite the bullet and stop choosing arbitrary alphabetic sequences
22:01:50 <ais523> Gracenotes: hmm... why do you get upset at meaningfully-named variables?
22:02:53 <ehird_> Hung at "unpacking the basse system", 48%.
22:03:10 <ehird_> ais523: it's bad haskell style; "meaningful" is the wrong name
22:03:30 <ehird_> "n" is vastly preferred over "name", for instance
22:04:23 <Gracenotes> well, I exaggerate, true. But I realized that most of the local variables in this function names like "imap", "pmap", "rmap", "rpmap", "iset", "cs", "ps", and a few hours later I'm thinking "what the hell do these do again..?"
22:04:37 <ehird_> Gracenotes: "this function"?
22:04:47 <ehird_> ais523: does ubuntu normally stall when unpacking the base syste,...?
22:04:53 <ehird_> Gracenotes: still too many
22:05:09 <ais523> ehird_: installation can seem to be jammed sometimes, but that rarely happens
22:05:21 <ehird_> it's been at 48% for like an hour.
22:05:26 <ehird_> though i can switch consoles
22:06:01 <Gracenotes> hum. I suppose I could eliminate the where clauses containing the names, but doing so would just clutter up the top line excessively
22:06:24 <ehird_> Gracenotes: if the subfunction isn't directly and irrevocably related to the operations of the function it's contained within, break it out
22:07:28 <Gracenotes> just to give you a taste, the first three lines are
22:07:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:07:40 <Gracenotes> where (others, mainNumber) = icomponents' us 1 Set.empty Map.empty
22:07:42 <Gracenotes> mainChar = IntMap.fromList . map (\(a, b) -> (b, a)) $ Map.toList mainNumber -- IntMap Char
22:07:44 <Gracenotes> otherNumber = Map.fromList . flip zip [-1,-2..] $ Set.toList others -- Map Char Int
22:07:57 <ehird_> firstly, what the fuck are those? Type comments?
22:08:04 <ehird_> Either give them actual type annotations or omit them because they're not irreleavnt.
22:08:07 <Gracenotes> lots of data structures. lots of boring, otherwise meaningless code
22:08:12 <ehird_> Deewiant: rather, foo :: a; foo = b
22:08:32 <Deewiant> With short stuff like that I'd just tack it on the end
22:08:34 <ehird_> those "comments" is fucking retarded
22:09:15 <Gracenotes> yeah, the important partt is that its a map from Int -> Char or Char -> Int, not the types themselves. There are maps of all sorts of permutations of back-and-forthiness
22:09:34 <ehird_> You have a type signature that you apparently think is neccessary.
22:09:41 <ehird_> Yet you replace two characters to make it specifically unenforced.
22:09:53 <ehird_> Despite replacing it back having NO adverse side effects
22:10:02 <ehird_> Furthermore, it's very unidiomatic.
22:10:06 <ehird_> Why on earth would you do this?
22:10:53 <Gracenotes> whatever, I'll change it to -- Int -> Char if it'll make you happy, but realize that there are 3 other lines with rather similar code. It is to help the type inference engine in my brain, not Haskell's.
22:11:06 <Deewiant> The point is to replace the -- with ::
22:11:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it's also badly merged; it's through the hotel room window, with a bit of camera displacement in addition to rotation.
22:11:19 <Deewiant> Making the compiler check for you that the comment is correct
22:11:24 <ehird_> Gracenotes: i think you should stop coding haskell ;_;
22:11:25 <Gracenotes> Haskell can already infer it just fine, it doesn't need to be told. I need to be told. OKAY? ;_;
22:11:42 <Deewiant> Maybe Haskell is inferring it to something else and you're being told the wrong thing?
22:11:48 <Deewiant> The :: tells it to both you and Haskell
22:12:24 <Deewiant> You seem to be missing the point entirely
22:12:37 <Deewiant> Why would you intentionally make it a comment instead of a type signature
22:13:18 <ehird_> Gracenotes: you really don't get haskell
22:13:18 <Gracenotes> who said I intentionally made a comment for purposes other than keeping track while I was writing it? Making it an explicit type comment is rather silly when the first thing on the line is Map.fromList and IntMap.fromList...
22:13:35 <ehird_> So if you can infer it from reading the code, why is it a comment?
22:13:43 <ehird_> ais523: it's still at 48%
22:13:55 -!- Sneezle has joined.
22:14:56 <Gracenotes> there, I have deleted it. end of discussion. I no longer have ambiguous names for my expressions, therefore I do not need, fucking ocmment nazis, I hope the comment mossad gets you one day
22:15:31 <Gracenotes> however, note that the code itself is similar!
22:15:56 * oerjan feels #esoteric is so damn negative these days
22:15:59 <Gracenotes> so ambiguous names like pmap, imap, and rmap are not helpful, as I am dealing with *lots* of data
22:16:01 <ehird_> the fact that you'd write and defend such a comment implies you should probably be trying to learn haskell...
22:16:07 <ehird_> oerjan: sorry, I'll never criticise doing stupid things again
22:16:22 <ehird_> Gracenotes: break up the data.
22:16:24 <ehird_> process it separately.
22:16:29 <oerjan> ehird_: that was not the only example
22:16:48 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
22:17:01 <oerjan> that ruins channel comprehension
22:17:18 <ais523> hmm... I just ignored myself to see what would happen
22:17:22 <ais523> and I can still see my own comments
22:17:38 <ais523> nah, I suspect that's intended behaviour
22:17:42 <ehird> oerjan: /shrug. I've always criticised stupid things: so unless you're talking about pre-2007, you're just imagining it.
22:17:42 <Gracenotes> ais523: probably because the ignore event is from comments received over the network..?
22:17:48 <ais523> after all, IRC doesn't echo your own comments back
22:17:50 <Deewiant> Make it a feature request then
22:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, don't buy your laptop in US
22:18:07 <Gracenotes> most IRC clients make events for network items, and just display your comments
22:18:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay; why?
22:18:10 <oerjan> ah, 2006, what a sweet year
22:18:11 <AnMaster> ehird, intel wireless are crippled there on the hardware level
22:18:17 <AnMaster> ehird, to only allow US channels
22:18:18 <Gracenotes> I should mention that the purpose of the function is creating a data structure with several elements, though
22:18:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you absolutely sure?
22:18:36 <AnMaster> http://www.linux-archive.org/fedora-development/78476-iwl3945-driver-channel-capability.html
22:18:44 <AnMaster> http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/07/27/wifi-regulatory-rant/
22:18:53 <Gracenotes> the actual data structure is data Dag = Dag (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap [Int]) (IntMap Char)
22:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and mine, bought in EU can manage up to channel 13, but can't do channel 14
22:19:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Bizarre; shameful.
22:19:13 <Gracenotes> so you can see, there is a lot of data that needs to be compiled together, and all of it is needed for the various functions
22:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, which is possible with the same model sold in Japan
22:19:24 <ehird> You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive.
22:19:30 <Gracenotes> that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it
22:19:34 <ehird> and may do the same
22:19:37 <Gracenotes> that is why they are bunched in one place, in the function creating it
22:19:40 <ehird> Gracenotes: it is perfectly breakable
22:20:02 <ehird> you operate on parts of data, and there are parts that do not depend on one anothr
22:20:11 <ehird> by definition, these can be broken up
22:20:40 <Deewiant> Flarg. How do I get all factorizations of a natural number?
22:20:48 <Gracenotes> anyweh, the only efficient way to do it is to generate the index while making the component map at the same time
22:21:00 <ehird> Deewiant: factor(1)
22:21:17 -!- nooga has quit ("Leaving...").
22:21:18 <Deewiant> ehird: That gives one, not all.
22:21:39 <Deewiant> Getting the prime factorization is easy enough.
22:21:42 <ehird> Gracenotes: GHC does fusion.
22:21:49 <ehird> You can perfectly well separate things.
22:22:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> You can get the custom ThinkPad card in the US. But that's less dense and thus hotter and more power-intensive. <-- hm?
22:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: .......................................wifi
22:22:44 <Gracenotes> GHC does not magically deforest trees and sets
22:22:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean, they have a custom one called "thinkpad card"?
22:22:59 <ehird> Well, it's just "ThinkPad Wi-Fi" or whatever
22:23:04 <Gracenotes> it fuses lists mainly. I don't care about lists here.
22:23:47 <ehird> Good, I think. But, the chip uses a less-dense (nanometer) manufacturing process.
22:23:50 <ehird> So hotter, more power.
22:23:58 <ehird> and I don't know if it does draft-n.
22:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, draft n is kind of broken in iwlwifi currently iirc
22:26:31 <ehird> "HAVE YOU CONSIDERED"
22:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and you need backported drivers with a few patches for kismet and aircrack-ng
22:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, it also results in no more OOPS in iwlagn on shutdown
22:27:10 <AnMaster> which otherwise happens on ubuntu
22:27:16 <Gracenotes> ehird: anyway. everything you've said so far has not applied to my specific case, just aimless general ranting, so if you want to write a function that takes a [String] where, for each (x:xs), x is the child component and xs is the parent component, then convert to parent->child and child->parent DAGs in an indexing system determined by the order of characters in the initial [String], with...
22:27:19 <Gracenotes> ...negative indices applies to all those which do not have an index, please go ahead and report on the results
22:27:20 <AnMaster> you also need to get the new firmware
22:27:21 <ehird> abaondon hope all ye who enter here
22:27:27 <ehird> abaonaonoanoaodoaodaon
22:27:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: seems like that is equivalent to finding partitions of a multiset
22:28:47 <oerjan> duplicates may be a complication
22:29:28 <AnMaster> http://intellinuxwireless.org/
22:29:33 <AnMaster> get the new firmware from there
22:29:43 <AnMaster> ehird, place it in /lib/firmware
22:29:57 <AnMaster> with the backported driver of course
22:30:08 <ehird> why not use ubuntu backports
22:30:21 <AnMaster> ehird, not new enough backport
22:30:36 <AnMaster> ehird, as in, it seems to be from 2.6.39 instead of 2.6.30
22:30:39 <Deewiant> I actually have an implementation already but it's kinda roundabout
22:30:53 <ehird> 9 versions behind!
22:30:55 <oerjan> Deewiant: hm i think a recursion handling all instances of the smallest prime each step might be the way to go
22:30:56 <Deewiant> And I think it might miss some
22:31:12 <ehird> Ugh, stupid ehird and his JOKES.
22:31:16 <ehird> Doesn't he know it was a TYPO.
22:31:29 <AnMaster> it still oopses with the ubuntu backports thingy
22:31:41 <oerjan> because any factors that don't have the same number of the smallest prime cannot duplicate each other
22:31:42 <AnMaster> so yeah, just get wireless-compat for 2.6.30
22:31:45 <Gracenotes> *sigh* now I remember, this is why I take programming advice with a huge fucking grain of salt
22:31:59 <ehird> nobody knows how to program properly
22:32:03 <ehird> they just don't "get" you
22:32:08 <oerjan> (smallest is of course an arbitrary choice)
22:32:29 <Gracenotes> ehird: I described the problem above, for your edification.
22:33:01 <ehird> Gracenotes: if you agree to paypal me an hourly rate I'm happy to code it for you
22:33:08 <ehird> otherwise, ... not my problem
22:33:13 <Gracenotes> it is not that the advice is useless, it is that of course it can't apply to my case without you knowing what it is.
22:33:40 <ehird> 1. split up all steps that possibly can be, don't think about efficiency, GHC can handle it
22:33:50 <ehird> 2. if you process data while ignoring some other parts of data, separate this and pass it only that data.
22:34:42 <GregorR> My hobo wine is being brewed!
22:34:55 <ehird> GregorR: is it swig ingest drink
22:34:59 <HackEgo> * tramp: a disreputable vagrant; "a homeless tramp"; "he tried to help the really down-and-out bums" \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * HoBO is a bi-annual, avant-garde magazine. Through collections of interviews, essays, and photo stories HoBO interviews celebrities, and other media figures. Founded
22:35:06 <HackEgo> * Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines. Low-end wines that are not fortified are usually packaged in jugs or boxes. \ [12]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_wine \
22:35:14 <Gracenotes> yes, I've been following those to that greatest extent I can
22:35:24 <ehird> "Low-end fortified wines are cheap, low-quality fortified wines."
22:35:27 <ehird> Thanks, Wikipedia!
22:35:29 <GregorR> ehird: Currently it's just hobo wine, I have to collect the CO2 before I can carbonate.
22:35:36 <Gracenotes> anyway, at least have some appreciation for the inapplicability of the problem to immutable data structures, being graph-based
22:35:43 <ehird> GregorR: What are you doing
22:35:53 <GregorR> ehird: http://www.instructables.com/id/CO2-Generator/
22:35:58 <ehird> graphs can be functional, easy
22:36:01 <GregorR> It's a biological renewable CO2 generator :)
22:36:12 <ehird> GregorR: what do you want CO2 for?
22:36:22 <GregorR> ehird: To carbonate water.
22:36:25 <Gracenotes> corecursively generated IntMap DAGs can be a pain to keep track of
22:36:32 <GregorR> Well, to carbonate X where X is a water-based beverage.
22:36:36 <ehird> GregorR: You could just buy some soda.
22:36:43 <GregorR> ehird: This is less expensive.
22:36:50 <GregorR> Also, carbonated water is hard to find.
22:36:51 <ehird> If your time is worth $0 :P
22:36:51 <Deewiant> Anybody have a copy of The Monad Reader #8?
22:36:55 <Gracenotes> but nonetheless essential data to create
22:36:57 <ehird> GregorR: so carbonate it yourself...
22:37:36 <oerjan> `google monad reader #8
22:37:37 <HackEgo> [14]The Monad.Reader Issue 8 \ File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - [15]View as HTML
22:37:50 <oerjan> GregorR: still no URLs?
22:38:12 <AnMaster> ehird, was your card an 5300 AGN?
22:38:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll be getting a 5300, yes.
22:38:27 <oerjan> GregorR: `google gives no URL
22:38:27 <ehird> Assuming I go with a thinkpad
22:38:38 <GregorR> oerjan: Only in certain wonko cases.
22:38:43 <HackEgo> Easily Author and Administer your own Training Content, Tests, and Certification Programs Online. Test.com is Web Based Software. \ www.test.com/ - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
22:39:05 <AnMaster> ehird, ran into this 7 page thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7323042
22:39:10 <oerjan> Deewiant: anyway, seems to be the first hit
22:40:07 <Deewiant> Gah, I always only look for "Cached" and never notice "View as HTML"
22:40:22 <ehird> Deewiant: How about getting an OS that can handle pdfs wel
22:40:36 <Deewiant> ehird: No OS can handle a PDF 0 bytes long
22:40:39 <ais523> like, anything but Windows?
22:40:51 <ehird> Deewiant: good point
22:41:25 <ais523> $ touch /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ $ evince /tmp/zerobyte.pdf \ Error: May not be a PDF file (continuing anyway) \ Error: PDF file is damaged - attempting to reconstruct xref table...
22:41:34 <GregorR> Most OSes don't handle PDFs at all :P
22:41:37 <ais523> and then, it decided that it was actually a plaintext file
22:41:46 <ais523> File type plain text document (text/plain) is not supported
22:41:47 <GregorR> (OS X being a notable counterexample)
22:42:24 <Gracenotes> now, to put all this data in a form JavaScript can easily work with
22:42:25 * coppro goes to see what okular does
22:42:28 <ehird> GregorR: If OS X does, Gnome sdoes
22:42:30 <Deewiant> Gah, byorgey manages to do it in about 8 lines
22:43:02 <coppro> which is interesting; it can handle misnamed JPGs
22:43:02 <GregorR> ehird: OK, I see your argument. Admittedly I'm using a pretty arbitrary definition of "OS"
22:43:11 <ais523> coppro: as in, bad extension?
22:43:14 <Deewiant> But hah, I can define pSet in one line
22:43:21 <coppro> nope, that's the entire error
22:43:36 <ais523> or just a jpeg called "porn.jpg" when it's actually goatse?
22:43:41 -!- Sneezle has left (?).
22:43:47 <ais523> file(1) can tell jpegs from non-jpegs relatively reliably
22:43:56 <coppro> no, it can handle JPEGs with a .pdf extension
22:43:56 <ais523> unless the non-jpeg is pretending to be a jpeg for some reason
22:43:59 <GregorR> Arguably, goatse is porn, and so porn.jpg is a legit name for it :P
22:44:04 <coppro> but it apparently can't handle a zero-byte file
22:44:06 <ehird> yeah i was about to say
22:44:09 <ehird> goatse was made as porn
22:44:12 <ais523> coppro: it probably isn't looking at the extension at all, it'll be looking for the magic number
22:44:26 <coppro> which is the right thing to do
22:44:37 <ais523> suffices on filenames are just a matter of convention in UNIX-alikes
22:44:48 <ais523> and magic numbers are the usual way to identify the type of a file, even though they're unreliable
22:47:15 <ehird> Because, hey, it's not as if we could make files objects and have them know what type they are.
22:47:52 <ehird> ais523: same way as unix
22:47:56 <ehird> I think plumbing uses file extensions
22:48:11 <Deewiant> Ah, never mind, his short implementation is horribly inefficient and the good one is fairly long
22:48:15 <ais523> clearly, we need MIME extensions, to annoy everyone equally
22:48:42 <ais523> as in, textfile.text/plain
22:48:44 <GregorR> ais523: I organize my files by MIME type.
22:48:48 <oerjan> Deewiant: moreover, it is actually wrong :)
22:48:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so you suggest like mac os?
22:49:02 <ais523> GregorR: I don't believe you, but major props if you're actually telling the truth
22:49:03 <ehird> No, that system has many flaws.
22:49:04 <oerjan> as he explains further down, it only works for _sets_
22:49:14 <Deewiant> oerjan: Yeah, but he fixes that
22:49:22 <ehird> I merely argue for objects; those things we use in our programs: and it is never "magic" what type an object is.
22:49:26 <Gracenotes> NO WINDOWS, I'LL RESTART WHEN I WANT. STOP IT WITH YOUR STUPID DIALOGS.
22:49:29 <ehird> It's simple, direct, useful and reliable.
22:49:42 <Deewiant> And comes up with some O(n!) algorithm or so
22:49:56 <Deewiant> I think that's pretty much what I had earlier
22:50:13 <Deewiant> (It was unusably slow after 9 prime factors)
22:50:19 <Gracenotes> is there some way to make yourself think that you can make Windows feel physical pain?
22:50:29 <ais523> Gracenotes: I like the restart dialog here on Ubuntu, if you choose 'restart later' it actually goes away and stays away
22:50:36 <Gracenotes> like, an app that emits suffering noises when you click a button?
22:50:52 <ehird> Gracenotes: infect every process with a virus that churns in an infinite useless loop and that continually makes it ruin the cache
22:50:58 <ehird> so it accesses memory more, does more task switching, ...
22:51:11 <Gracenotes> ais523: that is convenient, but not when it pops up every 10 minutes
22:51:26 <ais523> Gracenotes: that's the point, it doesn't pop up unless something else happens which would require a restart
22:51:42 <Gracenotes> it's a regular update. I'll restart when I want to. grrr.
22:51:44 <ais523> and the only thing that requires a restart is a kernel update
22:52:07 <ehird> ais523: good luck having a libc update apply fully
22:52:10 <Gracenotes> not in XP's opinion. I long to get my Ubuntu back :/
22:52:11 <ehird> yeah, you can do it with runlevels
22:52:17 <Gracenotes> ehird: I want Windows as an entity to suffer, but not me, the victim having to use it
22:52:17 <ehird> congrats, you're still "rebooting".
22:52:26 <ais523> ehird: oh, I don't generally care about fully-applied
22:52:38 <ais523> that'll happen at the next reboot; until then, I just have a new libc that not everything is using
22:52:38 <ehird> Gracenotes: you should run the virus after starting a bunch of bloated programs like every Office tool, and then just leave it for an hour
22:52:58 <ehird> then, when it tells you it's accessing the hard drive (code that in), hit reset in the middle
22:53:01 <ehird> your torture is complete
22:53:06 <ehird> it will not disobey you further
22:53:17 <ehird> ofc, run a benchmark tool
22:53:19 <ehird> that simulates using office, etc
22:53:22 <Gracenotes> jeez, what happened to simple low-tech solutions like driving to Redmond and throwing bricks through the Window?
22:53:28 <ais523> couldn't you use the hard drive access light to see if the hard-drive was being activated
22:53:33 <ais523> Gracenotes: it works better with a capital
22:53:38 <ehird> that isn't hurting windows!
22:53:46 <ehird> well, microsoft's building
22:53:53 <ehird> and maybe a microsoft employee or two
22:53:53 <ais523> ehird: but, it's the Window
22:53:57 <ais523> on which Windows is based
22:53:57 <ehird> ais523: but it does it constantly
22:54:01 <ehird> as opposed to intermittently
22:54:09 <ehird> so that you KNOW resetting will mess it up
22:54:21 <ehird> oh, do this with as little ram as possibl
22:54:23 <AnMaster> ais523, would be fun if there was an official window it was based on :D
22:54:26 <ehird> and underclock your CPU and ram as much as you can
22:54:36 <ais523> ehird: some CPUs can be underclocked al the way down to DC
22:54:48 <ehird> ais523: what, 50hz?
22:55:01 <ais523> it never has any cycles at all
22:55:01 <Gracenotes> ehird: er.. I do have an ext3 partition mounted, but the tool doesn't support journaling. your advice might not turn out great...
22:55:08 <ehird> ais523: that's rather useless :P
22:55:12 <ehird> Gracenotes: disable it
22:55:14 <ehird> we're just torturing windows here
22:55:16 <Gracenotes> I don't want to damage my beautiful ext3
22:55:24 <ais523> ehird: you go down to DC if you want to step through assembly code manually
22:55:28 <Gracenotes> if only I could actually boot to it, though :/
22:55:28 <ais523> without using a debugger
22:55:35 <ehird> ais523: seriously? :D
22:55:49 <ais523> generally speaking, that's mostly useful for testing the processors themselves, though
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22:56:15 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, oh? some new hardware recently?
22:56:15 <ais523> ehird: by changing the DC level from its high voltage level to its low voltage level and back again
22:56:43 <Gracenotes> AnMaster: it happened updating to Ubuntu 8.10
22:57:07 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, also, restore from backup before update
22:57:07 <Gracenotes> I haven't touched this laptop for a while
22:57:24 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure it will tell you to back up before upgrade
22:57:33 <AnMaster> and surely you didn't ignore that?
22:57:49 <AnMaster> it might have been in the release notes you didn't read ;P
22:58:03 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, depends on how you took the backup
22:58:43 <Gracenotes> sadly, I didn't; all the files on here are already duplicated on another hard drive, but those files don't include drivers/xorg.conf/the like
22:59:04 <Gracenotes> I'll probably end up doing a fresh reinstall
22:59:39 <ehird> i've never backed up
22:59:56 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, try arch or gentoo
23:00:10 <AnMaster> for a laptop ubuntu may be nicer
23:00:10 <ehird> he just hates non-rolling-release distros.
23:00:22 <Gracenotes> the issue is HP 2133 and its fucked up driver requirements
23:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, rolling ubuntu would be nice
23:00:33 <Gracenotes> note the "HP" in the name. That says it all, I hope.
23:00:38 <ehird> rolling ubuntu would be un-buntu.
23:00:49 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, not to me. I'm very happy with my HP-printer :P
23:00:57 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, no idea about their laptops
23:01:43 <Gracenotes> yes, try googling for information on ubuntu with the mininote. So many contradictory instructions, and my knowledge of Linux graphics is next to nil, particularly the workings of xorg.conf and why the heck it's not working
23:01:44 <ehird> hp 2133 seems to be a netbook
23:01:50 <ehird> it's the one I saw at the store, I think
23:02:06 <ehird> regardless, a ~9" screen is ridiculous
23:02:16 <ehird> they call it "large", lol
23:02:20 <AnMaster> Gracenotes, new ubuntu doesn't use it
23:02:23 <Gracenotes> true. you get used to it... it's all I have
23:03:14 <ehird> you can't replace and not drop
23:03:18 <ehird> therefore dropped and replaced is inherently redundant
23:04:06 <ehird> Q: What's odd about how Google and Amazon talk internally?
23:04:22 <ehird> A: It it it it goes goes goes goes like like like like this this this this.
23:04:24 <ehird> (yeah lame I know)
23:04:48 <Gracenotes> as opposed to, uh, extrinsically redundant
23:05:17 <ehird> wonderful, an installation step failed
23:05:22 <ehird> AnMaster: redundancy
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23:05:59 <Gracenotes> now, to effectively partition both upwards and downwards dags into subgraphs
23:07:36 <pikhq> Why, I've got Internet!
23:09:14 * ehird tries the 6.06 mini.iso
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23:11:43 <ais523> pikhq: it would be more fun if you were here without Internet
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