00:00:09 <mycroftiv> someone has been doing this for 11 years? well, the amount of effort involved does look pretty minimal, i suppose a whole years worth of this material is producible in about an hour
00:00:38 <ehird> you may have seen the guy who made it's blog (http://www.randsinrepose.com/) around the interwebs
00:00:42 <ehird> it has some fairly popular posts
00:01:01 <pikhq> You only really need to dump IRC into comic.
00:01:03 <ehird> but yeah, I'm fairly sure they just sit in an irc channel 24/7.
00:01:14 <ehird> pikhq: facial expressions too i think, although that could just be good synchronicity
00:01:41 <ehird> oh, and perhaps grouping lines into panels
00:01:48 * pikhq notes that Parsec makes most parsers seem trivial
00:01:49 <ehird> and making sure that characters are in panels even when not talking
00:01:57 <ehird> but it could just be automatic
00:02:28 <ehird> it's obviously very hit and miss though, http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3931.html made me laugh
00:02:41 <ehird> but quantity beats quality for sufficiently large values of quantity!
00:02:59 <pikhq> Meanwhile, I cannot does HTTP.
00:03:01 <mycroftiv> i laugh pretty easily, but i didnt laugh.
00:03:27 <ehird> well i basically never laugh but i smirked
00:03:27 <pikhq> "Isn't, like, dropping connections at random a *good* thing?"
00:03:51 <ehird> i think it's spigot's expression in the last panel that did it
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00:08:22 <mycroftiv> does anyone know of any real organized effort to create an 'encyclopedia of the internet and internet history'? something that infuriated me about wikipedia a long time ago was the idea on the part of many editors that the internet was somehow low-status and unimportant and the culture of the internet itself was un-encyclopedic
00:09:37 <ehird> encyclopedia dramatica.
00:09:45 <ehird> and I'm absolutely serious. brb
00:09:47 <pikhq> Encyclopedia Dramatica.
00:09:53 <mycroftiv> ugg, i hate ED with extreme prejudice.
00:11:10 <mycroftiv> i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism.
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00:27:14 <Gracenotes> well, ED's primary goal to chronicle internet history, but with an extra obsession of internet drama
00:27:33 <Gracenotes> encouraging it, idolizing it and creating it
00:29:57 <mycroftiv> regardless, there's definitely a need for a more scholarly approach to the topic
00:31:06 <Gracenotes> "So, what is your hobby?" "I am an internet anthropologist." "lolololololol"
00:31:40 <pikhq> "Ah, the AOL lol repetition. I thought that everyone had forgotten that."
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00:37:33 <ehird> 16:11:10 <mycroftiv> i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism.
00:38:11 <pikhq> Uh. ... There was something to ruin about 4chan?
00:38:29 <ehird> nostalgia shines everything
00:38:53 <pikhq> I thought it had always been a desolate wasteland of memes of ill taste, weird porn, and the occasional Anonymous uprising.
00:39:51 <ehird> i read the start of the original 4chan thread once, was fun
00:40:08 <ehird> esp. when moot got all emo and said something along the lines of
00:40:18 <ehird> "you'll see in the news about the 11 year old that killed himself"
00:40:21 <ehird> "oh wait i'm 13 now"
00:40:25 <ehird> (seriously, he said that)
00:40:33 <ehird> then the forums exploded with "lol 13"
00:40:45 <ehird> original 4chan thread as in on Something Awful
00:40:58 <pikhq> ... moot was how old?
00:41:25 <ehird> in 2003 when 4chan started
00:41:41 <pikhq> That explains a lot.
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00:45:13 <ehird> try a non-gnu grep?
00:45:14 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, fgrep is a wrapper for grep on most GNU/Linux systems
00:45:18 <bsmntbombdood> grep should be doing boyer-moore on fixed strings no matter how you invoke it
00:45:22 <ehird> AnMaster: god you're an idiot
00:45:42 <ehird> <bsmntbombdood> grep, grep -i, fgrep
00:45:58 <ehird> wow, you're really fucking retarded, you're proving my point here
00:46:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: gnu grep is probably using a lameo exponential algo http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
00:46:10 <bsmntbombdood> AnMaster: right, but it obviously uses a different algorithm
00:46:22 <pikhq> Not even a symlink.
00:46:24 <ehird> CLEARLY bsmntbombdood WAS BENCHMARKING GREP -F VS FGREP
00:46:27 <pikhq> ls -l `which fgrep`
00:46:30 <ehird> even though he didn't mention grep -f!
00:46:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends on what GNU/Linux you use
00:46:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but slow always
00:46:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i know
00:46:58 <ehird> you didn't say anything stupid
00:47:02 <pikhq> With two different md5sums.
00:47:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed it seems so there. was checking on my arch system
00:47:11 <ehird> i was talking about grep -i time
00:47:27 * mycroftiv tries to grep the log to see what the grep everyone is grepping about
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00:51:16 <pikhq> I think I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill people there.
00:53:31 <ehird> i would be happy if the isp i'm eventually going to switch to has nice fibre optic
00:53:36 <ehird> so i can't complain about isps too much.
00:54:56 <pikhq> I would be happy if my ISP did not drop connections at random.
00:55:17 <ehird> pikhq: just forward everything through ssh
00:55:23 <pikhq> I need an execution squad.
00:55:30 <bsmntbombdood> 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.45.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=555 ms
00:55:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: the internet actually gets something like half of the maximum possible latency
00:55:34 <ehird> w/ the speed of light
00:55:38 <ehird> but with a good connection
00:55:56 <ehird> http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html
00:56:22 <bsmntbombdood> one super low latency, medium bandwidth one for web, irc, ssh, etc
00:56:40 <ehird> there's no need to separate them
00:56:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: also bittorrent is p2p
00:56:55 <ehird> so that latency will fuck you up
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00:58:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: actually, the best studies ive seen of modern day internet latency show that the effective latency at the application level tends to be a lot worse, because the problem is that at the application level, your total latency is determined by the *worst* latency of the group of packets involved in an application level operation
00:58:32 <ehird> I'm just saying that you can't make a CONNECTION massively less latencyful
00:58:47 <ehird> remember that page was last updated 2001
00:58:47 <mycroftiv> very true, speed of light is a lot more of a practical limit than people realize
00:58:49 <ehird> so we might be even closer
00:59:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: I realised that when I learned that in the worst case, the speed of light limits communications to mars at something like 22 minute latency
00:59:26 <ehird> best case like six minutes
00:59:34 <ehird> and i was just like... well fuck space colonisation
01:00:00 <pikhq_> ehird: Works quite a bit better with lunar colonisation.
01:00:05 <pikhq_> Couple seconds latency.
01:00:19 <GregorR-L> TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system :P
01:00:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: its funny you say that, i think reasoning along those lines is actually the best resolution to the fermi paradox of extraterrestrial life
01:00:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: why are you lolling
01:00:22 <ehird> pikhq_: is it fast enough for video chat?
01:00:31 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm... not talking about TCP/IP.
01:00:33 <pikhq_> Not going to be playing any FPSes, but should be doing fine.
01:00:36 <ehird> GregorR-L: I'm talking about the speed of light.
01:00:44 <ehird> Unless you have a magical protocol that goes faster than light.
01:00:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah, ditto
01:01:29 <ehird> if you mean "well just use slower things then"
01:01:30 <GregorR-L> TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system BECAUSE the speed of light is an issue. What I'm saying is we'll need a set of protocols that don't assume such low latency.
01:01:55 <ehird> space colonisation where each planet is an isolated bubble isn't an improvement
01:01:56 <pikhq_> GregorR-L: Go back a few decades, then.
01:02:20 <ehird> I wish I had hundreds of billions to blow on physicists so I could force them to figure out a loophole to the speed of light :P
01:02:21 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR-L: originally, the ttl field of a tcp packet was in seconds
01:02:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: back then we sent like, oh, 30 packets at a time :P
01:02:49 <pikhq_> bsmntbombdood: TCP can't do *half an hour* latency.
01:02:52 <mycroftiv> ehird: want to take a shot at making this a formally stated theory? "given the inherent relationship of intelligence to information processing and extrapolation from our current sample size of 1 (ourselves)..."
01:03:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm afraid we can't control its orbit
01:03:46 <ehird> 6 minutes is still bad
01:03:53 <ehird> 3 minutes is as bad as 22 minutes
01:04:05 <mycroftiv> "it seems likely that as technological civilizations advance, their needs for bandwidth and low latency connections mean that space travel is unlikely to be regarded as efficient or desirable, due to the inherent limitations of bandwidth and latency imposed on outward expansion"
01:04:06 <ehird> unless you have a lot of patience and email
01:04:11 <ehird> then 3 minutes is a bit less annoying
01:04:17 <bsmntbombdood> each planet can have a massive squid cache for web
01:04:58 <ehird> the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years
01:05:14 <bsmntbombdood> and sms seems to be quite popular these days, that will do fine with 3 minutes latency
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01:05:51 <ehird> unless you want to limit all communication to a short period.
01:06:05 <ehird> anyway, yes, we could do non-real time communication
01:06:10 <ehird> to repeat: the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years
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01:06:26 <GregorR-L> You act as if all realtime communication MUST be with people on Earth.
01:06:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: telephone
01:06:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: FUCK isolated bubbles
01:06:45 <ehird> that's not progress
01:06:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sms is not real time
01:07:09 <bsmntbombdood> my brother just got a cell phone...i think he's maybe spoken on it once
01:07:17 <GregorR-L> This conversation is too ehird-makes-amazingly-stupid-arguments for me to continue ... *vanish*
01:07:29 <ehird> jesus christ you're all fucking retarded.
01:07:37 <bsmntbombdood> what i'm saying is that high latency text communication is becoming popular
01:07:59 <ehird> yeah it's been popular for a while now gramps
01:08:02 <ehird> the kids in the hood call it email
01:08:17 <ehird> regardless, an isolated bubble of real-time communication isn't progress
01:08:27 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, but SMS is also used as a surrogate real-time communication
01:08:31 <ehird> and you couldn't do that
01:09:12 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder what kind of bandwidth you can get from mars
01:09:20 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: we're talking about mars.
01:09:30 <pikhq_> bsmntbombdood: You're limited by the FCC.
01:09:40 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: anyway, this is theoretical limit
01:09:43 <pikhq_> Or, rather, their interplanetary equivalent.
01:09:45 <ehird> since we're not using freakin' light
01:09:58 <ehird> latency will be even worse
01:10:07 <ehird> and bandwidth will be the best of whatever can do those distances
01:11:22 <ehird> gigantic fucking microwaves
01:11:31 <ehird> + magic humans who can survive said microwaves
01:11:38 <ehird> well yeah technically
01:11:50 <ehird> but generally we don't say radio when we mean HOLY FUCK I'M MELLLLLLLLLLLLTIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
01:12:05 <ehird> like, I don't point to my microwave and go
01:12:06 <ehird> this is my radio oven
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01:12:32 <mycroftiv> what the hell are we arguing about specifically?
01:12:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: bunnies
01:12:39 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: microwave is commonly used for communication
01:12:49 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: i'm talking _powerful_ microwaves
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01:13:14 <bsmntbombdood> they're only powerful where you send them...with high gain directional antennas
01:13:25 <mycroftiv> can someone please express the topic of debate in the form of a question to answer, or a statement of fact to agree/dispute?
01:13:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: read yourself
01:13:48 <mycroftiv> ive been here and reading the whole time, and ive lost the thread
01:13:54 <ehird> internet with mars.
01:14:12 <mycroftiv> ok, but those are nouns. you cant disagree about nouns.
01:14:19 <ehird> also humans, melting humans
01:14:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: in this channel, we simply discuss/argue about things.
01:15:20 <mycroftiv> is the basic topic "will martian colonists have acceptable internet access?"
01:15:48 <mycroftiv> if the topic is "is earth-mars communication possible" the answer is obviously yes.
01:15:51 <bsmntbombdood> http://selenianboondocks.com/2006/03/the-bandwidth-may-be-improving-but-the-latency-is-still-going-to-suck/
01:16:23 <mycroftiv> obviously their local communications are no problem
01:16:32 <ehird> the issue is making it not an isolated bubble
01:16:36 <ehird> due to the speed of light, this is impossible.
01:16:47 <pikhq__> Except for exotic physics.
01:16:51 <ehird> yeah, but there aren't any humans elsewhere.
01:17:01 <ehird> so we're not isolated relative to humans.
01:18:17 <mycroftiv> i guess i think the issues in re: mars are probably not insurmountable, but that the issues for extrasolar travel (the really interesting question imo) maybe *are*
01:18:21 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:18:36 <ehird> if bittorrent never made any new connections, and you didn't have to share chunks, sure
01:18:53 <ehird> but (a) it does and (b) they're gonna be sitting on their asses for 20 minutes waiting for your bytes to come through
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01:44:47 <ehird> Ha! David S. Touretsky appeared on the interwebs.
01:54:28 <ehird> okay that's not actually hah but.
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02:36:19 <pikhq> Hath it stabilised?
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03:07:41 <augur> im baking my shallot tart tatin! :D
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04:50:36 <pikhq> 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff.
04:50:55 <pikhq> ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag.
04:51:17 <pikhq> Not being dicks == impressive.
04:52:00 <pikhq> "So you got shit for free. Guess what? It's actually free." :)
04:54:04 <bsmntbombdood> i bet shittons of people are going to start buying stuff now
05:05:58 <augur> i wish i had known! D:
05:09:28 <lament> me too.. i always wanted that watch that's like $600
05:13:21 <augur> i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so
05:13:26 <augur> its my geeky duty!
05:13:39 <pikhq> I've gotten stuff from there for Christmas.
05:24:08 <lament> ohhhhhhh they don't sell the slide rule watch anymore
05:24:25 <lament> but they still have http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/a890/
05:27:05 <lament> i'd buy it if it wasn't $600
05:27:35 <Pthing> also why 35 degrees north
05:28:34 <Pthing> is there even a major american city at that latitude
05:28:46 <lament> 35 degrees north is where japan is
05:29:26 <lament> right, but that's not why the watch uses 35
05:29:52 <puzzlet> that's so northern hemisphere-centric
05:29:52 <lament> anyway it's not that big of a difference
05:29:58 <Pthing> practically the fucking
05:30:04 <Pthing> centre of gravity of all the big japanese cities
05:30:42 <Pthing> osaka and tokyo and split the difference
05:30:45 <lament> it should work anywhere in japan, and, for that matter, anywhere in the states (except alaska)
05:31:01 <Pthing> hokkaido goes up to the 40s!
05:31:25 <Pthing> and the islands down to 24ish
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05:32:28 <augur> http://filthyphil.tumblr.com/post/154985575/dont-act-like-youve-never-seen-a-two-legged-cat
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07:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ?
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08:12:44 <oerjan> hey, xkcd is writing about me, or something.
08:16:10 <oerjan> yay, girl genius won a hugo
08:17:25 <lament> anyone can recommend a piece of music, preferrably for organ, that fits in three octaves?
08:20:52 <mycroftiv> lament: your best bet is small bach keyboard works - check out the inventions and sinfonias
08:21:32 <mycroftiv> i can check some of my sheet music right now i guess to see if thats accurate, im pretty sure that range isnt too far off
08:22:44 <lament> some of them ought to work
08:24:21 <mycroftiv> 4 octaves would be a lot more comfortable, but i think a fair number of small pieces fit into 3, or can do so with only trivial transposition of an occasional bass note up or something
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08:40:30 <lament> but i want something more :)
08:45:50 <AnMaster> lament, you want a small keyboard? Not enough space for a full length one?
08:46:02 <AnMaster> (as I can't find anything relevant in scrollback)
08:46:34 <lament> my macbook already has a keyboard
08:46:49 <AnMaster> lament, I meant, musical keyboard
08:47:11 <AnMaster> as in, electrical piano with MIDI over USB or such
08:47:45 <lament> here, shitty playing, but proof of concept that it can be done: http://filebin.ca/dmfhkb/bachprelude.mp3
08:47:55 <lament> i'm playing that on my keyboard
08:48:27 <AnMaster> lament, *playing on macbook keyboard*?
08:48:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music
08:50:17 <lament> pretty sure it was me :)
09:03:06 <oklopol> he thought no one would remember and ripped off my idea
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09:15:36 <lament> the chromatone is still fucking sexy
09:15:42 <lament> http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/8/chromatone-t312.jpg
09:15:50 <lament> i'm sure i'll end up buying one eventually
09:17:10 <lament> unfortunately it uses javko
09:18:13 <lament> and i have a b-system accordion
09:20:00 <AnMaster> it is like an electrical accordion?
09:20:20 <lament> sort of, but different layout
09:20:46 <AnMaster> I know next to nothing about playing accordion
09:20:56 <mycroftiv> even if you know piano its a bit tricky
09:21:10 <AnMaster> I do play piano. (not professionally, just for fun)
09:21:12 <mycroftiv> the button/chording system adds a whole new element
09:21:43 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, so for someone who can manage a bit on piano and on acoustic guitar: How does that thing work?
09:22:02 <mycroftiv> accordion? well, its basically a keyboard that you play the melody on, then buttons that set the accompanying chords
09:22:05 <lament> you press the keys, and it makes sounds
09:22:35 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, setting chords? you don't play chords the "normal" way?
09:22:56 <AnMaster> so it's like you have a fixed set of possible chords?
09:23:03 <lament> yes, which is retarded
09:23:08 <lament> not all accordions are like that, though
09:23:21 <lament> if i ever get an accordion, it would need to have the same layout on both sides
09:23:28 <AnMaster> lament, well... what about classical acoustic accordion.
09:23:30 <lament> such accordions exist too
09:23:38 <AnMaster> the thing used for folk music and such
09:23:51 <lament> but usually, yeah, you have a set of chords
09:24:02 <AnMaster> lament, how extensive is that set?
09:24:17 <lament> e.g. for each key, you have a major chord, a minor chord, an alternative root for the major chord, a major seventh, a diminished chord
09:24:34 <lament> pretty useless if you want to play classical on it
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09:53:44 <oklokol> lament: not all accordions are like that, though <<< most ones i've seen have both melodic and chord bass options
09:54:56 <oklokol> same layout on both sides? cool, i might even consider playing one
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09:55:28 <lament> they're ridiculously expensive though
09:55:44 <lament> the coolest layout seems to be the russian one
09:55:56 <oklokol> all the accordions i've seen have cost a ridiculous amount anyway
09:56:05 <lament> it works like a piano - higher notes are downward on the right hand and upward on the left
09:56:30 <lament> so it's as if the two keyboards were two halves of the same keyboard
09:56:44 <oklokol> well, usually i'm against all that isn't symmetric, but that would already be better than piano, so i don't mind
09:57:15 <lament> other accordions have the keyboard mirrored, so higher notes are downward on both hands
09:57:44 <lament> hard to say wihch is better
09:57:44 <oklokol> right, i'd probably prefer that
09:57:49 <mycroftiv> oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music!
09:57:56 <oklokol> also i don't know about "better", i'm all about purity
09:58:02 <lament> actually yeah, this one is probably better
09:58:11 <oklokol> mycroftiv: the tritone is my favorite interval
09:58:20 <lament> since the scale patterns are the same with both hands
09:58:57 <oklokol> that's somewhat annoying in piano, but it makes up for it because there's not explicit split
09:59:08 <oklokol> and also in that i've already learned the patterns
10:00:50 <lament> shit, if i get a second laptop
10:00:55 <lament> i could do that with two laptops
10:01:36 <oklokol> although i already hate all keyboards for being completel antisymmetric anyway
10:02:06 <mycroftiv> oklokol: a lot of that asymmetry is inherent in how we build music out of mathematical ratios
10:02:30 <oklokol> by which i mean the shifts to the right on different rows are completely random
10:02:41 <oklokol> mycroftiv: do you mean the split of the octave, or what exactly?
10:03:13 <mycroftiv> well, there are a lot of elements, this is my particular field of professional expertise, so what level of detail do you want in the answer?
10:03:34 <mycroftiv> maybe you should express what you mean by 'antisymmetric' in terms of keyboards, i dont follow what you mean yet maybe
10:03:37 <lament> oklokol: they're close enough on my macbook that it doesn't botehr me
10:03:54 <mycroftiv> oh, do you mean keyboards, not keyboards?
10:04:03 <lament> oklokol: think of it like the different sizes of frets on the guitar :)
10:04:04 <mycroftiv> computer keyboards, not piano keyboards?
10:04:14 <oklokol> mycroftiv: i simply mean the difference in shift between the two lower columns is different than it is on the first two
10:04:45 <oklokol> i don't like the piano keyboard either, though.
10:04:45 <lament> i need a good way to control volume
10:04:47 <mycroftiv> i thought you disliked the asymmetery of the musical keyboard
10:04:53 <oklokol> because i'm not very fond of the major scale
10:05:17 <mycroftiv> so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc?
10:05:30 <lament> mycroftiv: i dislike the asymmetry of the musical keyboard. Accordians are much nicer.
10:05:32 <mycroftiv> (some people do, but its very rare)
10:05:33 <oklokol> never heard of any of those, but yes, i prefer atonal music
10:05:38 <fizzie> lament: Use the Power Glove to control the volume. It's so BAD.
10:05:44 <oklokol> and i don't know what serial music is
10:05:50 <lament> mycroftiv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo
10:05:54 <lament> mycroftiv: that's me playing
10:05:54 <AnMaster> hm the solution is obviously thermins (spelling?)
10:06:02 <mycroftiv> oklokol: its music composed on the idea of treating each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale 'symmetrically'
10:06:21 <oklokol> right, i guess i imply that when i say atonal.
10:06:36 <oklokol> well, okay, no i don't know if i like atonal music
10:06:37 <mycroftiv> oklokol: not all atonal music is 'serial' - the serial school is a particular method
10:06:44 <AnMaster> lament, they sound better too. So yes
10:06:56 <mycroftiv> lament: i dont have flash enabled on this computer so ill have to check that link later
10:07:40 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, use vlc or such + the command line program youtube-dl
10:07:41 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: its a pop cultural reference to a very bad movie about video games
10:07:47 <lament> the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse
10:07:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: The actual glove is an old (1989) accessory for the NES console.
10:07:59 <oklokol> anyway i need to go read random crap now ->
10:08:13 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, ah. Well for reference I suck at popular culture references
10:08:28 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: me too, i get them all second hand, ive never seen the movie, but i know the line
10:08:47 <fizzie> The Wikipedia power glove page has the requisite "in popular culture" section.
10:08:56 <AnMaster> <lament> the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse <-- hrrm
10:08:59 <mycroftiv> every pop culture reference i know, i know because ive learned it from the internet referencing it, its been like this since the 80s
10:09:01 <fizzie> And I haven't seen it either, I just know it by osmosis.
10:09:19 <fizzie> A friend here was considering getting some foot pedals for Emacs.
10:09:46 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can use my rudder pedals for something like that
10:09:54 <mycroftiv> sounds like a half measure, how about a full pipe organ setup for emacs?
10:10:03 <mycroftiv> you could play 'stallman's 3rd sonata for emacs' on it
10:10:13 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I take it you dislike emacs?
10:10:29 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: ive never even been able to learn enough of it to dislike it
10:10:41 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, for reference I'm IRCing from inside emacs
10:11:06 <fizzie> I tried out ERC, but it didn't really stick.
10:11:11 <AnMaster> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC
10:11:19 <mycroftiv> im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs
10:11:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed. There is some other irc client for emacs too
10:11:56 <fizzie> I think I'll keep swapping clients every few months or so; variety is good for... well, it must be good for *something*!
10:11:59 <AnMaster> odd thing is, I find zsh bloated, so I use bash
10:12:00 <mycroftiv> though perhaps if you switch to emacs-as-os mode, then emacs becomes a nice flexible lightweight environment with nice lightweight tools
10:12:15 <AnMaster> of course bash could *also* be considered bloated. compared to simpler shells at least
10:12:28 <mycroftiv> im a plan9 devotee, so we think everything everyone uses is bloated
10:13:00 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, you have the power of lisp always. Admittedly this is *elisp*. So dynamic scoping. But better than vimscript definitely.
10:13:29 <mycroftiv> yes, i understand that the emacs paradigm of being a full operating environment with full reflexivity because of lisp is actually awesome, once you know what the hell you are doing
10:13:52 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I can customise my irc client a lot. Just write a hook in elisp
10:14:09 <AnMaster> there are lots of places that you can hook into. Basically everything.
10:14:24 <mycroftiv> yup, i love the idea being able to modify your environment in real time as you work in it
10:14:53 <AnMaster> (now I'm quite happy with the defaults/pre-made available options in most cases for ERC, but in a few places I hooked in my own code)
10:15:38 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway, while lisp is awesome, elisp isn't
10:16:23 <AnMaster> mostly due to the dynamic scoping. But even apart from that it is quite sucky compared to scheme (I don't know common lisp, so can't compare with that)
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13:08:17 <ehird> MAXIMISE RADICALNESS IN YOUR EVERY ACTION!
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:50:36 <pikhq> 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff.
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:50:55 <pikhq> ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag.
13:09:31 <ehird> 20:51:17 <pikhq> Not being dicks == impressive.
13:09:31 <ehird> i would buy thinkgeek stuff, but the last time I got something from there the import tax was like £70
13:11:13 <ehird> 23:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ?
13:11:16 <ehird> I wasn't even alive then
13:11:22 <ehird> i was one year old, rather
13:12:34 <ehird> lament: how do you think using the fancy shmancy multi touch trackpad on the new macbook pros would go for musak
13:13:04 <ehird> 00:48:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music
13:13:05 <ehird> yeah lament posted a video
13:13:30 <lament> ehird: i dunno, how would you use it?
13:13:55 <ehird> would prolly work best in combination
13:13:56 <lament> especially if your hands are busy playing stuff
13:14:09 <ehird> you could do, like, modulation with it
13:14:19 <ehird> though that's fairly useless and not multitouchy
13:15:35 <lament> touchpad could work pretty well as a volume control, except that the hands are already occupied
13:16:06 <lament> so the only solution i see is some kind of pedal (possibly the mouse)
13:16:18 <fizzie> Your nose is also free.
13:16:55 <fizzie> "Free lament's nose, only today on #esoteric! Terms and restrictions may apply. Order valid only while supplies last."
13:18:14 <ehird> lament: eh, keyboards (musical kind) have sliders and shit next to the keys
13:19:37 <lament> i'm not a keyboardist so i don't know how they work or what they're useful for
13:20:03 <lament> i've seen the pitch bender thing but can't imagine a use for it
13:20:40 <lament> fizzie: that would look absolutely fucking brilliant
13:21:34 <mycroftiv> pitch bending is very useful if you are trying to imitate the sounds of non keyboard instruments
13:21:59 <mycroftiv> for instance, even a well sampled synth brass instrument is going to sound quite 'lifeless' if the samples are 'straight on' pitch unless you bend into them a bit
13:22:26 <mycroftiv> for something like playing pseudo-electric guitar on a digital keyboard, the pitch bending and other 'expression' controls are invaluable
13:22:36 <fizzie> I think some sort of use-your-tongue-like-a-joystic things also exist.
13:22:53 <mycroftiv> i think its not 'tongue as a joystick' its breath control if im thinking of the same things...
13:23:05 <mycroftiv> but i havent kept up with all the toys so maybe there is a tongue joystick
13:23:08 <ehird> 01:57:49 <mycroftiv> oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music!
13:23:08 <ehird> no, that's the Boîte Diabolique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s
13:23:30 <fizzie> Quick Googling only found http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26338543/
13:23:38 <fizzie> Maybe not as a product yet, but still.
13:23:42 <lament> fizzie: i'm imagining some kind of pedal contraption with a wooden frame for the mouse, s.t. when you press on the pedal, the mouse moves
13:23:42 <ehird> also, the modulation is useful for pretending you have a theremin.
13:24:30 <ehird> lament: uhh just hook the pedal up to the computer
13:24:35 <mycroftiv> hmm, there are things very much like the boite diabolique that are quite real, microtonal keyboards have been around for hundreds of years actually
13:24:53 <lament> ehird: that requires a pedal
13:25:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: yes, ear-bleeding notes of fucked up colours. :P
13:25:13 <ehird> lament: mehhhhhhhh
13:25:22 <ehird> lament: i'm more interested in using things directly rather than hacking them up
13:25:46 <lament> that requires buying such a pedal, if it even exists
13:25:59 <ehird> lament: of course it exists, but
13:26:02 <ehird> who gives a shit about pedals
13:26:04 <ehird> they're conventional and boring.
13:27:09 <lament> yes, using the tongue would be much better
13:27:25 <lament> but of course the perfect solution would be a touch-sensitive computer keyboard
13:27:30 <ehird> you just don't appreciate the utilisation of gizmos and gadgets
13:27:32 <ehird> also, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no
13:27:52 <ehird> anyway the perfect solution would be total virtual reality of course.
13:28:09 <lament> the perfect solution would be to become a lesbian.
13:28:23 <ehird> sounds about right.
13:32:01 <oklokol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s <<< what the absolute fuck is this
13:32:46 <ehird> it's an excellent educational program
13:33:13 <oklokol> is it meant to be like some kinda bad surreal humor
13:33:36 <ehird> well of course you're not going to like it just jumping in like that, also the music episode isn't the best.
13:33:52 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 is prolly a better start.
13:34:14 <oklokol> so are you saying it is supposed to be educational? i'm just asking what the point is
13:34:36 <ehird> Yes, oklokol. It is really trying to teach people about the twelve forbidden notes on every piano...
13:35:59 <oklokol> i'll assume it is, because i can't come up with another possibility
13:36:21 <ehird> the boite diabolique is just filler in between segments
13:36:35 <fizzie> I had heard of "edutainment" and "infotainment", but "edugamement" was a new one.
13:36:59 <ehird> oklokol: srsly, just watch the maths episode, it's good :P
13:37:47 <oklokol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 <<< okay, this is humor, even rather funny
13:37:53 <oklokol> err and yeah that's the math
13:44:38 <ehird> oklokol: what does "err and yeah that's the math" mean :P
13:45:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, what would those words mean
13:45:40 <oklokol> that it was exactly the maths episode you were talking about
13:45:47 <oklokol> how was that not terribly clear!
13:45:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, containment of education/info for the first wo?
13:46:10 <AnMaster> the last one I have no clue about
13:46:53 <fizzie> Entertainment, not containment.
13:46:55 <oklokol> i think i have my mind wrapped around the music episode too
13:47:01 <fizzie> "Edutainment (also educational entertainment or entertainment-education) is a form of entertainment designed to educate as well as to amuse."
13:47:29 <oklokol> fizzie: that sounds absolutely horrible
13:47:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean like really boring programs by Utbildningsradion?
13:47:50 <fizzie> I think it generally is quite horrible, yes.
13:47:54 <AnMaster> (and no clue what is the equivalent in UK or US)
13:48:04 <oklokol> can i see an example of it now, please
13:48:32 <fizzie> Also "educational games" could be lumped under edutainment, but apparently there is also a (fortunately not much used) new term "edugamement" for that.
13:50:23 <ehird> [[Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward.
13:50:24 <ehird> However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009.
13:50:24 <ehird> Your tweets with tr.im URLs in them will not be affected.]]
13:50:35 <ehird> take that, people who say "naw, a URL shortening service would NEVER disappear!"
13:51:20 <mycroftiv> im eager to find those people and say 'i told you so' also, apart from the fact that i never met any of them, and i never heard of tr.im before today
13:51:34 <ehird> well then you are not the target market of my statement!
13:51:46 <oklokol> what's the context of this
13:52:47 <ehird> zoooooooooooooooooooooom
13:52:58 <oklokol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
13:53:48 <ehird> :DDDDDDDDDD YAY FLYING
13:53:52 <fizzie> "There is no way for us to monetize URL shortening -- users won't pay for it --" Really!
13:54:04 -!- ehird has set topic: :DDDDDDDDDDD FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY*!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
13:54:10 -!- ehird has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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13:54:20 <mycroftiv> what? there are free url shortening services? man im gonna find that guy ive been paying $5 to every week and kick his ass
13:56:01 <nooga> is there a tool that analyzes C++ code to visualize what classes are needed for other classes to function etc?
13:56:07 <mycroftiv> man, i spend all my time on the internet, but i still live in a different world - i read stuff like "twitter's ecosystem has lots of developers" and i dont even have the vaguest clue what 'developing for twitter' even means
13:56:44 <oklokol> i only have a vague idea what twitter is
13:56:54 <mycroftiv> i think its a service popular with twits
13:57:16 <asiekierka> i'm trying to get either a good ZX Spectrum assembler for the PC
13:57:16 <mycroftiv> that is my semantic assumption, at least
13:58:44 <oklokol> i have no idea what those contain, i'll just stick with the assumption you want to change the file extension
13:59:12 <nooga> http://www.computerbrains.com/tapformat.html
13:59:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm going to try and explain twitter and wtf "programming for twitter" means in one (1) irc line, because i'm fucking insane and hate myself
14:00:17 <mycroftiv> i know twitter is some kind of web platform for push/pull of tiny text segments
14:00:40 <fizzie> Yes, well, the .tap format's simple because it's pretty much just an image of the tape contents; it's not that trivial to get a binary on it so that the target system can load it from the tape.
14:01:40 <nooga> fizzie: but if you have appropriate binary
14:02:02 <fizzie> Yes, but you still have to find out how the binary is stored on the tape.
14:02:26 <fizzie> The "data" in that format is just timings for pulses, not binary data.
14:02:52 <fizzie> Anyway, I would have to guess there are several existing programs to do it. (I last used one some seven years ago and don't remember the name.)
14:07:45 <fizzie> I guess it was that WAV-PRG one, though I have no idea how speccy-friendly it is.
14:14:51 <fizzie> I'm guessing ehird's task of explaining what Twitter is made him implode.
14:15:15 <ehird> I managed to do it in five IRC lines but just /msg'd it to mycroftiv since, as nobody cares, I decided to bore as few people as possible
14:15:30 <fizzie> Now do it in one Tweet.
14:15:41 <fizzie> That's, what, 140 characters?
14:15:49 <ehird> i'll try, with the help of OS X's summariser
14:16:00 <ehird> but every piece of info in those 5 tweets is required to understand why
14:16:01 <ehird> as opposed to what
14:17:26 * ehird condenses to three paras
14:19:42 <fizzie> Oh, a "why" explanation for twoodler would be nice. That's something I've been asked, and never been able to answer.
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14:21:20 <ehird> I think I can get it down to two IRC messages: what-with-a-bit-of-why, and why
14:21:23 <ehird> a tweet's pushing it a bit
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14:21:49 <fizzie> Two IRC messages is not too shabby either.
14:27:48 <ehird> almost got it in two IRC messages
14:29:12 <ehird> fizzie: what's the max irc message limit again?
14:30:50 <fizzie> 512 bytes, but two are taken by the potential \r\n at the end, and then it depends on how long the command is; on-channel "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" eats, what, 19 bytes or so.
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14:32:42 <ehird> fizzie: and now, I will attempt to explain what Twitter is and why it is in two IRC lines.
14:32:45 <ehird> You see all tweets from people you follow. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: people carry out conversations through it, etc. Basically, it does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). Also, mention people in your tweet and it shows on one of their tabs, even
14:32:46 <ehird> Importantly, it's pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; though you get messages as they're posted and can reply then, it can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically in this way (unlike IRC in the usage of it (not technically), of course; shares facets though). One thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics proceeded by #) - not channels because messages don't have continuity; just groupings of messages about the same thing. By searching, you can scan th
14:33:05 <ehird> fizzie: don't bother to read that
14:33:09 <ehird> fizzie: you didn't account for the name
14:33:14 <ehird> the :ehird@blahblahshit
14:33:21 * ehird wittles it down further
14:34:18 <fizzie> Oh, right. Since it's not in the command, it's just in the messages forwarded by the server, which of course have the same length limit too.
14:35:17 <ehird> fizzie: let's try this again
14:35:20 <ehird> Tweets are sent out to followers. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: conversations through it, etc. It does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?").
14:35:20 <ehird> Importantly, pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; you get messages as they're posted and can reply then; can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically here (unlike in the usage of it (not technically) too, ofc; shares facets though). Thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics after #) - not channels, messages don't have continuity; groupings of messages about the same thing.
14:40:05 <ehird> fizzie: that's sort of like saying "congratulations on your brain enema".
14:40:25 <ehird> one thing short form writing is not for is long explanations :P
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15:00:30 <ehird> English is like magic!
15:02:11 <AnMaster> server sends somewhat like this to other clients:
15:02:18 <AnMaster> :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah
15:02:35 <AnMaster> and iirc the length limit of 512 applies *from server* too
15:02:38 <ehird> Do you deliberately ignore lines that say what you want to say?
15:03:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just doing log reading like you do. since obviously you think this is a good idea. I would assume you want the same applied to yourself
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15:04:13 <ehird> you do try awfully hard to be obnoxious, don't you
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15:05:23 <ehird> http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/toshiba-tg01 // the 1GHz phones are here!
15:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried to be kind. Maybe assuming that you like others doing what you do yourself was wrong.
15:06:20 <AnMaster> golden rule and all that. obsolete clearly :P
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15:17:44 <fizzie> There's a rumour that Motorola's building two keyboardy Android phones; the second one ("Sholes") might have a 854x480 display (so 266 DPI) and built on the TI OMAP3430; that's a 600 MHz ARM + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430 MHz TI C64x DSP core.
15:18:54 <fizzie> It's no gigahertz, but still. Google's been promising that later releases of that "NDK" native-code development kit will allow linking with the OpenGL ES 2.0 and audio libraries. Currently I thinki it's just libc+libm and all "interesting" parts have to be done with their JVM code.
15:19:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, how large is the screen then
15:19:34 <fizzie> "45.72 mm by 81.34 mm".
15:19:43 <fizzie> None of this is very confirmed information.
15:20:12 <AnMaster> *waits for dual core processors in phones*
15:21:02 <fizzie> The other Motorola thing, "Morrison", is (maybe) going to be some sort of lower-end device, with a 480x320 screen and the "default" 528 MHz ARM that's in the Hero and G1 and whatnot.
15:21:47 <fizzie> Well, there's already three cores if you count the CPU, GPU and DSP. (I doubt the DSP is very application-accessible, though, and I don't know how much OpenGL ES 2.0 does programmabilities in shaders and such.)
15:22:29 <AnMaster> as in, what brand makes them and such
15:22:35 <AnMaster> never heard of that gpu product before
15:22:50 <fizzie> Well, PowerVR makes them. It's very common for mobile 3D.
15:23:06 <fizzie> Apparently a "division of Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic)".
15:23:21 <fizzie> "in use in many high-end cellphones including the Apple iPhone, Nokia N95, Sony Ericsson P1, and Motorola RIZR Z8" -- quite a list.
15:24:54 <fizzie> Though the 535 used in the iPhone 3GS does double as many (28 vs. 14) millions of polygons per second as the 530 model.
15:25:00 <ehird> so I still haven't finished logreading yet!
15:25:01 <ehird> 02:05:17 <mycroftiv> so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc?
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15:25:06 <ehird> i think i've heard some schonberg
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15:25:13 <ehird> and i seem to recall it was a lot better than any other classical i've heard.
15:26:49 <AnMaster> Schönberg had different "periods" in his composing, to begin with he wasn't atonal. iirc
15:27:19 <AnMaster> I'm no expert on Schönberg though
15:28:28 <ehird> after a brief googling i conclude that indeed it is awesome
15:29:09 <ehird> also the power glove was ALMOST awesome
15:29:25 <ehird> but the buttons should have been where you'd make a fist
15:29:28 <ehird> so you can use one hand
15:30:27 <ehird> 02:11:19 <mycroftiv> im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs
15:30:27 <ehird> i think i use proprietary software just to annoy stallmanites
15:31:09 <ehird> wrt the emacs as environment stuff, emacs is a bad lisp os
15:31:20 <ehird> that stupidly focuses on one widget, the text editor
15:36:13 <pikhq> ... Emacs, minimalist?
15:36:31 <pikhq> It's a freaking Lisp OS.
15:37:40 <fizzie> more minimalistic than Emacs does not imply much minimalism.
15:38:04 <pikhq> Oh, "more minimalistic than emacs".
15:38:07 <pikhq> I misread that sentence.
15:38:21 <pikhq> "More minimialistic, like Emacs."
15:40:19 <pikhq> Hahahah. "Tea Party" member starts a brawl in a town hall during a health debate, gets injured. He's now asking for donations, since he doesn't have insurance.
15:45:09 <ehird> I'll donate minus dollars.
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15:46:45 <pikhq> I'll donate exactly one socialist dollar.
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15:48:07 <ehird> btw, http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/
15:48:20 <ehird> e.g. selections are a submenu in the right click
15:48:28 <ehird> there aren't any global menus, just right clicking
15:48:36 <ehird> and the menus have text input and other things
15:48:42 <ehird> sort of an interface unto themselves
15:49:25 <ehird> and ofc it was the first OS with text antialiasing... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/RISCOS_4_scr.png
15:49:43 <ehird> even subpixel, says wikipedia
15:50:04 <ehird> pretty awesome when you consider that they also invented ARM
15:51:01 <olegfink> the ui looks pretty wimpy to me.
15:51:04 <asiekierka> I want to make an esolang that resembles an alien language
15:51:10 <ehird> olegfink: "wimpy"?
15:51:18 <olegfink> it is no doubt a good WIMP, but still a wimp
15:51:18 <ehird> what an awful way to classify a gui
15:51:28 <ehird> "it looks, easy, and, and, usable and wimpy"
15:51:36 <ehird> (yeah yeah i get it)
15:51:54 <olegfink> ehird: as in tuomo's definition, windows, icons, menus and pointer
15:52:04 <ehird> olegfink: anyway it was released in 1988
15:52:14 <ehird> olegfink: but there are interesting details
15:52:18 <ehird> some of which I mentioned
15:52:20 <asiekierka> http://github.com/asiekierka/2D-Sandbox/tree/master - something i've been making
15:52:20 <ehird> that no other OS has afaik
15:52:55 <ehird> (asiekierka figured out how to use git?)
15:53:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE (and wimpy ui's) *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:07 <ehird> I hereby ban asiekierka from modifying the topic.
15:54:16 -!- ehird has set topic: flaught http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:34 <olegfink> ehird: indeed, but too small differences and too late. oberon ui has more chances.
15:54:43 * pikhq changes asiekierka's topic to: main = getArgs >>= parseFromFile toplevel . head >>= either print print
15:54:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric is now unofficially #ehirdland | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:55:04 <ehird> stop, it, asiekierka
15:55:07 <ehird> olegfink: did I say it's the best UI ever?
15:55:13 <ehird> i just said that it has some interesting aspects
15:55:20 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:55:40 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:11 <olegfink> yeah, by the way, does 'fs' in 'hostfs' stand for filesystem?
15:56:25 <olegfink> why not set +t on this channel?
15:56:35 <ehird> olegfink: (a) prolly (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics
15:56:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:46 <ehird> asiekierka: apart from fizzie and lament
15:56:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:49 <ehird> who have both talked a lot today
15:57:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:57:30 <pikhq> asiekierka: Stop being dumb.
15:57:33 <ehird> i wish you would either go away or stop changing the topic like that
15:57:37 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:00:00 <ehird> olegfink: i thought you were disappearing for a month anyway or something
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16:00:57 <olegfink> ehird, my weekends aren't that long
16:01:51 <olegfink> but I can just shut up and pretend I'm still on vacation.
16:03:05 <olegfink> by the way, speaking of guis, k3 gui is one of the best I've seen
16:03:18 <olegfink> it's purely data-driven and reactive
16:03:46 <olegfink> iirc clean has something of the sort, haskell and ocaml still have quite some problems with frp implementations
16:03:57 <ehird> k3 gui gooling helps not, plz linky
16:03:58 <olegfink> at least I haven't seen anything working
16:04:12 <ehird> my os' ui is hilariously undecided
16:04:36 <ehird> but i haven't even considered FRP, that's how much of a conservative curmudgeon I am!
16:05:35 <olegfink> hmm, the reference is only available as a pdf
16:06:03 <ehird> my OS is unannoying enough to handle PDFs smoothly
16:06:53 <pikhq> ehird: Really, it's only Windows that doesn't...
16:07:02 <pikhq> Adobe's PDF reader. *shudder*
16:07:13 <ehird> linux doesn't let you view a pdf as smoothly as if it was just an html page does it?
16:07:25 -!- Asztal has joined.
16:07:26 <ehird> but Windows is indeed the worst
16:07:43 <olegfink> some examples with screenies: http://nsl.com/papers/calculator.htm
16:07:49 <olegfink> http://nsl.com/papers/instant.htm
16:08:17 <ehird> i thought it was some fun obscure os called K3 or sth
16:08:26 <ehird> but yeah, I thought you mean the UIs themselves were FR somehow
16:08:38 <ehird> k3's ui code looks very nice, resulting uis are still wimp though
16:08:59 <olegfink> because, eh, they are designed to map to x11/winapi?
16:09:04 <ehird> olegfink: well, yeah
16:09:07 <ehird> i just mean the paradigm
16:09:17 <ehird> just saying i misinterpreted it
16:09:25 <ehird> olegfink: but k doesn't use native windows widgets
16:09:28 <Deewiant> Great, then tell me whether/why (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((m (x ((((#(y))))) ...)) '(y ...)))) is valid with (m (x)) being the empty list
16:09:45 <ehird> Deewiant: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html
16:09:54 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3
16:10:01 <ehird> ↑ macro definition
16:10:29 <olegfink> ehird: don't know enough about winapi, but probably. any way, doing an oberon-like thing in this style is even simpler, considering the implementation of acme.
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16:10:44 <ehird> acme? i only know it as the wonderful plan 9 editor
16:10:47 <olegfink> but I /definitely/ want such a UI!
16:10:57 <ehird> is that oberon-style?
16:11:07 <ehird> acme's pretty damn awesome, needs a bit more discoverability though
16:11:14 <ehird> you basically have to know how to do the transformation you want
16:11:17 <olegfink> quite, oberon also did graphics though.
16:11:52 <Deewiant> ehird: I've read it through about 20 times
16:12:05 <ehird> Deewiant: meditate a bit, try in a few other implementations
16:12:15 <olegfink> well, that means knowing sam (or acme's builtin text processing language which is the same) and unix/plan9 tools
16:12:18 <asiekierka> Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet?
16:12:31 <ehird> acme is nice if you know it
16:12:33 <Deewiant> ehird: I'm not interested in the result, I'm interested in whether the spec says it or not :-P
16:12:50 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, and if implementations disagree you need to check the spec more closely
16:12:54 <Deewiant> To me it seems as though it only says "[the pattern variables] are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated."
16:12:56 <ehird> but if they agree it's likely they're right
16:13:20 <ehird> Deewiant: try SISC
16:13:29 <ehird> Deewiant: it passes the extremely perverted R5RS edgecase tests, so
16:13:32 <Deewiant> Which, to me, seems like "it's obvious so we won't go into the details" or "we don't give a shit about the details" and I'm not sure which one they mean
16:14:04 <olegfink> anyway, limiting the graphical options of a widget toolkit is certainly worth having the ability to code the ui in K3 style
16:14:26 <asiekierka> Again: Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet?
16:14:39 <ehird> olegfink: i don't believe limitation of such things is ever neccessary
16:14:49 <ehird> asiekierka: we're not answering your question because it's tedious and you ask it all the time
16:16:08 <olegfink> ehird: well, it's not that easy to map some more obscure gui elements to the data
16:16:18 <ehird> then the paradigm is limited
16:16:33 <ehird> oklokol's os/ui ideas seem to strike a nice balance, vague as they are
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16:16:40 <ehird> and they map quite a bit to mine
16:17:43 <ehird> oklokol: basically (I'm going to be second-hand egotistical (does that even make sense?) and assume you vaguely care),
16:18:26 <ehird> some data (object, whatever) is viewed/modified through the "view" of some behaviour defining a ui element
16:18:27 <Deewiant> ehird: SISC agrees with mzscheme
16:18:39 <ehird> and this directly manipulates the underlying data reference
16:18:39 <Deewiant> But I don't care, I want to know where the hell they're getting this from
16:18:50 <ehird> so you can take out the object and give it a new interface and they sync up
16:19:04 <ehird> and you could e.g.
16:19:04 <ehird> be running a rotate view on an image,
16:19:09 <ehird> then take out the underlying object and put it in a zoom view
16:19:15 <ehird> and if you used the rotate view some more
16:19:21 <ehird> the zoomer would update according to the new underlying object
16:19:35 <olegfink> that sounds somewhat close to MVC to me.
16:19:42 <ehird> olegfink: it's not, though
16:19:48 <ehird> it's far more functional/non-destructive
16:19:57 <ehird> and the "views" are much more lightweight
16:20:14 <ehird> it's very close to directly manipulating the object
16:20:23 <ehird> it's just that the viewing/manipulation is abstracted away
16:20:24 <olegfink> the only reason frp works in k3 is that it has a very simple type system, doing what you're proposing probably requires much more
16:20:34 <ehird> no, this could work trivially with dynamic/duck typing
16:20:44 <ehird> you just need objects
16:20:47 <olegfink> K does that, but only for a string repr.:
16:21:07 <ehird> but yeah, you basically making UIs by composing mini objects with abstracted direct-manipulations
16:21:08 <olegfink> every value is assigned two functions, ..f and ..u, which is format and update respectively
16:21:21 <ehird> and feed the underlying data into other things
16:21:24 <ehird> thus locking things together
16:21:33 <olegfink> the first maps the value to string, the second does the reverse whenever the user updates the screen view
16:22:33 <olegfink> the problem is, again, the same as with acme: we vaguely inderstand how to do all this with plain text but not with anything else
16:22:53 <ehird> i really don't think the idea i'm expressing is mvc though
16:23:27 <olegfink> recall the usual wysiwyg problem, you just can't present rich text on screen in an editable way so you could re-serialize it with some degree of common sense
16:23:54 <olegfink> yeah, what you're expressing is very close to what K does
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16:24:13 <ehird> but the thing is that you can build any sort of UI with it, because it's essentially completely generic
16:24:22 <ehird> as long as your UI maps to some tangible data, which is always good UI practice
16:25:13 <olegfink> damn, our ajax k ui thingy seems to be in the middle of a yet another revamp, so I can't show you that on the web
16:25:49 <olegfink> ...it basically doesn't do editing now
16:26:04 <ehird> are you the nsl.com owner? unless there's a bunch of people who do both K and esolangs
16:26:09 <ehird> which I wouldn't put past the language
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16:28:49 <ehird> well that killed the channel :)
16:28:57 <olegfink> no, the person behind nsl.com is stevan apter
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16:30:24 <ehird> when i've looked into k it's just seemed like it's bogged down by corporate concerns etc and there's no real easy way to get into programming fun stuff with it
16:31:26 <ehird> that program by kx that converted k code into english made an impression on me though
16:31:37 <olegfink> as you can see, stevan does. :-) I'm trying as well.
16:31:49 <ehird> olegfink: is my impression that k4/q sort of drifts away from this sort of stuff correct?
16:32:01 <ehird> i couldn't find a free k3 binary anywhere.
16:32:19 <olegfink> at least it has neither ui nor the dependency/fr stuff
16:32:42 <olegfink> both documentation and distributions
16:32:46 <ehird> olegfink: heh, it just had to have every platform but mine
16:32:54 <ehird> i know k4 supports osx, maybe k3 didn't
16:33:07 <olegfink> yeah, only linux, solaris and windows :-(
16:33:52 <ehird> i know qemu has something that might let me run the linux one natively
16:33:55 <ehird> that forwards the syscalls or something
16:33:55 <olegfink> but indeed I find k4/q much less fun
16:34:01 <ehird> or is that just same-os, different-arch i wonder
16:34:04 <ehird> and iirc it only works on linux
16:34:30 <olegfink> osx is ought to have some linux syscall emulator
16:34:38 <ehird> bit of a niche market
16:34:45 <olegfink> every other os (well, except windows) seems to have one
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16:34:53 <ehird> it doesn't need it for games like bsd, because more games exist for osx than linux,
16:35:08 <ehird> and most other "linux" only software is foss and works on bsds too
16:35:13 <ehird> (of which osx is one)
16:35:27 <ehird> the proprietary app that supports linux but not osx is a rare thing
16:36:22 <olegfink> heh, then you're probably out of luck ;-)
16:36:36 <olegfink> then wait while we finish the web version of k3 ui
16:36:39 <ehird> [[QEMU has two operating modes[2]:
16:36:39 <ehird> User mode emulation
16:36:40 <ehird> QEMU can launch Linux or Darwin/Mac OS X processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. Target OS system calls are thunked for endianness and 32/64 bit mismatches.]]
16:37:02 <ehird> olegfink: is that like some try ruby sorta dealie
16:37:08 <ehird> http://tryruby.hobix.com
16:37:44 <olegfink> aye, *this* functionality already works, but the ui can only do scalars and number lists
16:38:24 <olegfink> also one (mis)feature tryruby lacks is of course the ability to do a rm -rf *
16:38:43 <ehird> that's, a feature? :D
16:38:44 <olegfink> because K has no built-in ways to disable harmful stuff
16:39:04 <ehird> tryruby uses why's freaky deaky sandbox (real name)
16:39:22 <ehird> which is a patch to the impl and some gnarly ruby code
16:39:35 <olegfink> well, then I could as well. K seems to feel pretty comfortable chrootted to an empty dir
16:39:59 <ehird> just do what GregorR's HackEgo does
16:40:01 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23971
16:40:03 <ehird> olegfink: use plash
16:40:09 <ehird> it's a debian thingy that lets you totally isolate stuff
16:40:13 <ehird> chrooted, random user id each time
16:40:18 <ehird> syscalls selectively enabled etc
16:41:20 <ehird> wonder if i could convince cygwin to compile on os x
16:43:25 <ehird> http://www.openlina.com/ iiinteresting, apparently you can make it seamlessly do linux cli apps on os x
16:43:30 <ehird> (as well as gui apps on etc etc)
16:45:04 <ehird> olegfink: am I right in thinking that most of k's benefit comes from the libs rather than the core language?
16:45:11 <ehird> it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to reimplement the latter
16:46:19 <olegfink> surprisingly, it seems that it's the other way around
16:46:33 <ehird> the semantics don't seem overly complex.
16:46:47 <ehird> olegfink: of course, i know the paradigm is powerful
16:46:54 <olegfink> at least while quite a lot of smart people like K, there isn't any implementation
16:47:10 <ehird> there isn't any implementation?
16:47:12 <olegfink> one reason maybe it that the existing one is good enough for them. :-)
16:47:23 <olegfink> that is, except the official one
16:47:32 <ehird> olegfink: it's just a question of, if you reimplemented the core language and not the libs, people wouldn't use it
16:47:43 <ehird> because it'd be, while a powerful paradigm, not very useful
16:47:55 <olegfink> you see, the most surprising thing is that there aren't any "libs"
16:48:03 <ehird> the gui, f'instance
16:48:10 <olegfink> that is, there is a lot of stuff people use on the internet, but it's not standard
16:48:24 <ehird> i'm just trying to figure out if/why a foss would be hard/impractical
16:48:38 <ehird> i mean, ok, so there's no libs
16:48:41 <ehird> but that just means the core language is big
16:48:44 <olegfink> that's a question I keep wondering about for almost a year now.
16:48:52 <ehird> *a foss reimplementation
16:48:56 <olegfink> yes, the gui is about 60% of the implementation
16:48:56 <ehird> can't go around dropping words.
16:49:10 <ehird> and without the gui, it wouldn't be nearly as useful, i gather
16:49:31 <ehird> unfortunately a reimplementation would be almost possible unless you're a k guru since all you have is a binary blob...
16:49:35 <ehird> unless the docs are really precise
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16:50:03 <olegfink> yeah, and then comes the question why the said 'k gurus' don't reimplement it.
16:50:21 <ehird> ok, kref.pdf is ridiculously long
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16:50:23 <olegfink> e.g. the nsl.com owner, who has created a few dozen k-like languages /in k/
16:50:37 <ehird> olegfink: better things to do i guess
16:51:01 <ehird> they're on supported platforms, don't want to change the language in ways that require the source and have a copy of the impl & manual
16:51:04 <olegfink> when I asked him about it he said that the implementation doesn't matter, ideas do
16:51:23 <olegfink> well, actually I guess he has the source as well. :-)
16:51:25 <ehird> well that's a wonderful philosophical yammering but doesn't change the reality of what the closed-sourceness limits :P
16:51:35 <ehird> closed source seems fine from the inside
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16:51:49 <ehird> olegfink: probably also a question of loyalty to kx
16:52:46 <ehird> at least, seems that way to me
16:53:04 <olegfink> yeah, that's what I figured, but the question is harder than that -- there is a now-opensource a+ which is a k predecessor and shares many features with it
16:53:14 <olegfink> and basically noone seems to be interested in it
16:53:16 <ehird> frankly the code looks ugly
16:53:27 <ehird> and it seems to lack things like the gui
16:53:48 <ehird> olegfink: I think the people who would use A+ use J instead
16:53:55 <ehird> I don't see a single reason to use A+ instead of J
16:54:23 <olegfink> source availability again? :-)
16:54:44 <ehird> olegfink: but nobody seems to care about that :\
16:54:46 <olegfink> I can't say there aren't any places in K I wouldn't like to tweak a bit
16:54:48 <ehird> at least not in this circle
16:55:13 <ehird> i'm tempted to try reimplementing K
16:55:26 <ehird> might be a nice way to learn it ;-)
16:55:41 <ehird> K's gui does look like the nicest way to hack a quick UI up on current systems
16:56:01 <ehird> although if I wanted something polished, i.e. not just something for me and a few others to quickly jab at, i'd always hand-craft it on current systems
16:56:10 <olegfink> yeah, that's what my friend and me are doing for the last year or so, however, we're currently mostly doing K code than implement K
16:57:09 <olegfink> unfortunately we mostly do xmpp
16:57:23 <ehird> i have a google talk account, though adium's chat support is lacking.
16:57:35 <ehird> olegfink: colloquy does xmpp!
16:57:43 <ehird> as well as SILC and some ancient protocol called ICB
16:58:17 <ehird> though I'm not sure how you do a MUC on another server with xmpp
16:58:43 <olegfink> your client should have an explicit option for that
17:00:56 <olegfink> with the C implementation we just hit a wall because we apparently needed something cooler than CPP
17:01:54 <ehird> olegfink: something more than cpp? have you SEEN arthur whitney's j prototype? :D
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17:02:16 <olegfink> seen, read and -i hope- understood
17:02:26 <olegfink> as well as some amount of a+ and j7 code.
17:02:28 <ehird> after de-cppization you can sort of understand it IME
17:02:45 <ehird> I'd probably go crazy and write it in Haskell or Scheme
17:02:49 <olegfink> (j7 is an old source-available version of J)
17:02:49 <ehird> because why not?!?!
17:03:28 <olegfink> got stuck because it lacked high-order polymorphism and so there was boilerplate all over the code
17:03:37 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:03:41 <olegfink> well, haskell would be slow, K is fast ;-)
17:03:44 <ehird> haskell has polyhistomorphic functors up the wazoo!
17:03:48 <ehird> Haskell ain't slow.
17:03:53 <ehird> ghc's pretty sufficiently smart
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17:06:17 <pikhq> olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast.
17:06:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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17:07:04 <ehird> olegfink: you'll have to repeat your last /msg or two
17:07:20 <pikhq> olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast.
17:07:26 <pikhq> That's what thou missed.
17:07:46 <olegfink> pikhq: K as in a marketed solution pretty much depends on gcc sse vectorisations, so sorry, we need you beloved for(;;) loops.
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17:08:07 <ehird> olegfink: haskell has smart vectorisation actually.
17:08:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:08:53 -!- ehird has joined.
17:09:00 <ehird> you have to repeat your last /msg again :-(
17:09:06 * ehird deletes all contacts from gtalk
17:09:10 <ehird> maybe my client won't crash then
17:09:46 -!- lament has joined.
17:10:04 <olegfink> ehird: just use bitlbee with your irc client
17:10:19 <ehird> too much work. I'll just make a jabber.org account
17:10:23 -!- Asztal has joined.
17:10:49 <ehird> wow, that was easy
17:10:54 <ehird> username, password, repeat password, captcha
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17:21:59 <ehird> olegfink: how fast IS k btw?
17:22:20 <ehird> i get the impression it's basically going at the speed of light wrt the bog-standard vector operation
17:22:29 <ehird> and deriving any speed benefits from that
17:22:39 <ehird> (can it run on a gpu? :))
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17:25:09 <olegfink> usually k has the same speed as good C code
17:25:27 <olegfink> that's for the very reason of it being a thin wrapper around good C array processing code
17:26:04 <olegfink> that is, implementing K functions in C is very easy
17:26:25 <ehird> yeah, the issue is when you do something that isn't really an array
17:26:32 <pikhq_> Mmkay, so K gets you good data parallelism.
17:26:41 <ehird> (<k zealots> yeah, we can't do all these things: nothing)
17:27:46 <pikhq_> Of course, data parallelism is not hard to do well.
17:28:04 <ehird> pikhq_: Is that a vaguely dressed diss of K I see before me?!
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17:28:38 <pikhq_> ehird: Not especially. Data parallelism does need to be done well. It's more a complaint about people focusing *soley* on that.
17:28:53 <ehird> have you ever used an array language?
17:28:57 <ehird> it's not for the performance
17:28:59 <ehird> it's for the paradigm
17:29:15 <ehird> they are genuinely pleasant to use
17:29:30 <pikhq_> Well, yeah; K seems to focus on making it very clear what the code's doing, and it just happens to get good performance.
17:30:13 <ehird> K is very, very implicit
17:30:25 <ehird> at least by my reading.
17:30:50 <pikhq_> ehird: ... Algorithmically.
17:31:02 <ehird> K's algorithms are all internal
17:31:03 <olegfink> k isn't that large, but it's difficult to read unless you know all the syntax
17:31:07 <ehird> unless i'm reading it very wrongly
17:31:13 <ehird> i never really see actual K algorithms
17:31:15 <pikhq_> Erm. I'm saying this wrong.
17:31:16 <ehird> it does them for you
17:31:27 <ehird> http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k is still one of my favourite pieces of code to date
17:32:02 <pikhq_> Making it clear that you're, say, "doing vector operations foo bar and baz to vectors 1 through 3", I mean.
17:32:11 <pikhq_> And I may just be sounding stupid right now.
17:32:12 <ehird> pikhq_: vectors 1 through 3?
17:32:14 <ehird> you mean "vectors"
17:32:22 <ehird> vector operations? you mean regular operations? :P
17:32:25 <ehird> olegfink: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/calc.k // am i reading this correctly as oop?
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17:32:36 <ehird> looks like it copies J's ugly of using strings as method bodies
17:32:52 <ehird> what're those strings then
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17:33:15 <pikhq_> Anyways, it's trying to be like APL, without the need for a space cadet keyboard.
17:33:52 <ehird> calc.eval:"exp:5:. exp"
17:34:04 <ehird> pikhq_: no, that's j
17:34:13 <pikhq_> ehird: I'm being dumb, then.
17:34:26 <olegfink> calc is a dictionary, that is a keyed table
17:34:35 <ehird> what are the strings
17:34:44 <olegfink> an entry 'eval' has the given value
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17:35:26 <olegfink> in the K reference it is stated that when a data item is shown as a button its action is determined by evaluating its value
17:36:39 <Asztal> > 08:49:47 --- quit: Asztal (Success)
17:36:41 <olegfink> exp:5:. exp is something like "exp = show $ eval exp" in something like haskell
17:36:44 <Asztal> damn all these successful errors
17:37:00 <olegfink> er, something like something like.
17:37:20 <pikhq> There's an 'eval' function in Haskell?
17:37:21 <ehird> olegfink: so, right, as a string
17:37:58 <olegfink> yeah, because k ui generally prefers strings over niladic functions
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18:19:21 <nooga> the count of something is: something count or somethings count?
18:19:28 <nooga> user count or users count?
18:20:01 <ehird> but don't say that.
18:20:44 <GregorR-L> "<ehird> but don't say that." ... why not?
18:21:23 <GregorR-L> Looks like I'm going to have to go figure out the people-who-find-that-phrasing-awkward count.
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18:21:33 <ehird> that's less awkward.
18:25:24 <ehird> a a the drugs like the
18:25:39 <ehird> i on the is the i'm it the looks
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18:38:16 <nooga> this whole K look weird
18:43:57 <nooga> i'm thinking about buying Snow Leopard
18:48:36 <ehird> it'll set you back all of less than 30bux
18:50:38 <nooga> i wonder if it's worth it
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18:51:49 <ehird> note: i haven't used it
18:52:08 <ehird> but seriously, only an iphone user would consider $30 a lot for software, why in my day we had bbedit
18:52:15 <ehird> and we were happy, we were
18:56:41 <HackEgo> BBEdit 9. Bare Bones Software develops and publishes software for OS X, ... Get started with a look at BBEdit, our flagship editor or Yojimbo, ... \ www.barebones.com/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar
18:56:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: since System 6 iirc
18:57:00 <ehird> the "canonical" macintosh code editor
18:57:17 <ehird> GregorR-L: People wrote code on System 1. :P
18:57:25 <ehird> But, well, everything was plain text back then.
18:57:31 <ehird> (unless it was word processed)
18:57:44 <GregorR-L> My boss at Intel, who previously worked at Apple, told horror stories of cross-compiling all their code from AIX workstations.
18:58:11 <ehird> "AIX Version 1, introduced in 1986 for the IBM 6150 RT workstation"
18:58:21 <GregorR-L> This is in the PPC days, mind you.
18:58:22 <ehird> "Release dateApril, 1988 (info)" — [[System 6]]
18:58:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: yeah, ppc came in the system 7 days
18:58:58 <GregorR-L> But if they were using AIX for PPC, I find it hard to believe they did everything natively on m68k :P
19:00:18 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know that there have been programs written on System 6, for System 6, in its heyday.
19:00:41 <ehird> Specifically, Mark Pilgrim's GPL'd (basically the only programs to be licensed that way at the time) apps.
19:00:42 <GregorR-L> I don't doubt it, I just find it terrifying :)
19:00:44 <ehird> http://diveintomark.org/projects/classic/
19:01:27 <ehird> system 6 is quite capable
19:02:32 <fizzie> MPW 1.0 was apparently released in 1986, and I'm sure someone used it too.
19:02:53 <ehird> what was that thing
19:02:56 <ehird> or whatever it was
19:03:32 <fizzie> I think CodeWarrior at least did some 68k stuff.
19:03:49 <ehird> also, urbandictionary confuses me
19:03:51 <ehird> [[A word describing somebody who is uncomfortable being openly amiable and kind, so they give more subtle hints to their goodwill while maintaining a disagreeable exterior. See also.
19:03:51 <ehird> That man spent the entire meal complaining to me about my service, and then he left me a $5 tip. He's totally aggressive passive.]]
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19:04:50 <fizzie> CodeWarrior people did a Symbian development system too. And something for the PlayStation.
19:05:24 <fizzie> "Even more amazing was the Macintosh Development System, an assembly-only tool that was Apple's very first tool for developing on the Mac (earlier Mac software was cross-developed on the Lisa). MDS will run on a Mac 512 with System 2!"
19:05:44 <ehird> CodeWarrior was originally developed by Metrowerks based on a C compiler and environment for 68k, developed by Andreas Hommel and licensed to Metrowerks. The first versions of CodeWarrior targeted the PowerPC Macintosh, with much of the development done by a group from the original THINK C team. Much like THINK C, which was known for its fast compile times, CodeWarrior was faster than Macintosh Programmer's Workshop (MPW), the development tools written by App
19:05:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THINK_C
19:06:03 <ehird> FireFly: lisa makes sense
19:06:06 <fizzie> MPW's free nowadays, which is nice. I installed some version on that Performa.
19:06:25 <ehird> i tried to install it but it's distributed as 9348578934579345 separate files
19:06:27 <ehird> for each component
19:07:59 <fizzie> The FTP site has single .img.bin files in addition to the Segmented_Image ".img_NNof24.bin" nonsense. At least for some parts. Don't remember how it was when I installed it.
19:08:15 <ehird> exactly, a fuckton of .img.bin files
19:12:16 <nooga> http://bellard.org/otcc/otcc.c man, this is nice
19:12:41 <ehird> http://bellard.org/tcc/ non-obfuscated cousHOLY SHIT
19:12:47 <ehird> The 64-bit guy who gave up just got a release!
19:12:55 <ehird> "Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this."
19:13:29 <ehird> Shinh of anarchy golf revived tcc along with someone else :D
19:14:43 <nooga> that otcc looks awesome
19:19:32 <asiekierka> International Obfuscated Pascal Code Contest
19:20:28 <oerjan> Program WhatTheFuck(Input, Output);
19:21:12 <oerjan> i was going by very old pascal here
19:21:13 <GregorR-L> International Obfuscated Bash Code Contest
19:22:50 <asiekierka> I was thinking of a Piet interpreter in obfuscated C :P
19:25:16 <asiekierka> Then I could run the C obfuscator through a C beautifer and use my C obfuscator on the result so we can see if it's better or worse than human work
19:25:25 <asiekierka> ...That makes sense in a very nonsensical way
19:26:11 <asiekierka> well, i'm not the first one to request pascal
19:26:11 <asiekierka> http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Syntax-Games-td171449.html
19:31:06 <asiekierka> this is a hello world in obfuscated-ish pascal
19:37:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
19:38:41 <ehird> pascal's wager must have been a troll
19:38:44 <ehird> it's so hilariously wrong
19:39:40 <oerjan> in fact it was posthumous
19:40:02 <ehird> it was not humorous at all
19:46:36 <oerjan> a very grave matter indeed
19:47:01 <ehird> i wonder why there aren't virtual machines that can change their memory allocation dynamically according to need.
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19:56:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you mean by that; if you just mean adding/removing memory allocated to a particular quest system, at least Xen and I think KVM can do that for Linux guests with the "balloon" driver.
19:58:02 <fizzie> Yes. They're operating systems that are on a sort of a vision quest.
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19:59:02 <ehird> fizzie: i meant automatically
19:59:08 <ehird> if it's using n megs, it gets n+a little megs
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19:59:14 <ehird> oh this vm wants umm 573 mb
19:59:19 <ehird> oops i ran out of fake memory
20:00:06 <oklopol> fortunately i'm not the one being talked to, because i'm being inactive
20:00:09 <fizzie> Given that there's the mechanisms for dynamically changing the memory amounts, I'm sure someone has rigged up some sort of automatic system.
20:02:00 <fizzie> The "Running Xen" book says "If a user desired an automatic policy for memory management, one could be written without much trouble" and then some ideas about scripting one, but maybe it hasn't been implemented.
20:03:06 <fizzie> VMware ESX apparently (haven't used it) has some sort of system where you define minimum, maximum and percentage shares for all machines, and then it periodically samples those machines and steals memory from machines not using it, and gives it to heavily loaded ones.
20:05:47 <ehird> xen isn't acceptable
20:05:50 <ehird> i'm running other oses
20:06:06 <ehird> basically running server ubuntu, mounting os x dirs, hiding it then sshing in
20:26:11 <nooga> is it possible to run separate OSes on multi-core processor so that they feel as if ran on single computer?
20:26:28 <ehird> nooga doesn't know what a vm is.
20:26:56 <ehird> nooga: modern vms run the instructions directly on your hardware
20:26:56 <nooga> i don't want to run lilnux in a vm that is a program in OS X's user space
20:27:07 <ehird> and this happens in kernel spac
20:27:13 <nooga> i want to run linux and OS X parallel
20:27:13 <ehird> the only emulated part is the devices
20:27:19 <ehird> ↑, you're being stupid
20:27:29 <nooga> yes i know i'm stupid
20:27:37 <ehird> nooga: you could make an OS that optimises the shit out of the devices part and only runs a vm
20:27:40 <ehird> that would be nice and fast
20:28:41 <nooga> i thought there is some thin layer that allows to boot several OSes at once and keep them running on separate cores sharing ram and shit
20:29:18 <ehird> that's just a "VM OS" running multiple vms with uber-optimised virtual devices (can't get around that)
20:29:25 <ehird> with dynamic memory allocation, I guess
20:29:53 <nooga> it could be done by hardware :D
20:32:14 <ehird> hardware doesn't do task switching, either
20:32:18 <ehird> and we don't complain about the performance of that
20:32:28 <ehird> it's just that VM products have to route the virtual devices through an existing OS
20:32:35 <ehird> which adds a lot of overhead
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20:38:37 <nooga> i've got PC and mac and 2 lcd displays, it'd be cool to place the displays next to each other and use one keyboard and mouse, like i'm moving mouse cursor from one screen to another (from OS X to linux, for instance) and keyboard automagically changes focus + ability to drag files from one desktop to another would be nice
20:39:19 <nooga> i'm sure it's possible with a piece of clever hardware and relatively simple software on both machines
20:39:53 <GregorR-L> Or, just one slightly-more-clever piece of software.
20:41:18 <nooga> liek connecting input devices to one computer and writing network based mouse+kbd driver for the second computer
20:41:49 <GregorR-L> Oooooooor .. http://synergy2.sf.net/
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20:43:53 <nooga> it's such a good idea that it had to be done ;D
20:44:38 <fizzie> I've been using Synergy2 for that lately; earlier I used a VNC client I wrote that did not fetch display updates at all, just sent keyboard and mouse events, but that had some video-related problems.
20:44:45 <GregorR-L> There would be advantages to the hardware/software version.
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21:50:52 <augur> lolcats are over a hundred years old
21:51:15 <augur> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AntiqueLolcat.jpg
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21:51:23 <augur> a postcard from 1905
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21:51:47 <GregorR-L> If it was, it'd say "WHERE R MY DIN-DIN"
21:52:12 <augur> this was a more civilized time
21:52:16 <augur> before the breakdown of kitty grammar
21:54:04 <fizzie> This is your father's grammar, for a more... civilized age.
21:54:25 <oklopol> is that some kinda reference to something
21:54:35 <fizzie> oklopol: It's the Star Wars, you may have heard of it.
21:54:55 <GregorR-L> I totally forgot that that was a reference >_>
21:55:03 <fizzie> I guess they stole it; though the parentheses thing wasn't original in xkcd either.
21:55:06 <oklopol> i actully do vaguely remember seeing something like that on xkcd
21:55:08 <fizzie> At least I think it wasn't.
21:55:40 <oklopol> what was the context in sw
21:55:54 <fizzie> oklopol: It's about Luke's father's lightsaber.
21:56:02 <fizzie> Which is a more elegant weapon than some clumsy blaster.
21:56:18 <fizzie> The Obi-Wan guy's presenting it to Luke.
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21:56:23 <oklopol> err, is it "*from* a more..."?
21:56:50 <fizzie> "Your father's light saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age."
21:57:11 <fizzie> Well, if you trust IMDb.
21:57:39 <augur> i find it funny that obi wan talks about blaster randomness
21:57:53 <augur> and the storm trooper blasters are notorious for being compeltely random
21:57:53 <fizzie> It seems I misspelled "light saber", though.
21:58:15 <fizzie> oklopol: He's the "old mentor" guy, you must know the type.
21:58:26 <augur> yeah, hes the obiwan of starwars
21:59:01 <augur> yoda is the yoda of star wars
21:59:15 <oklopol> i see what you're doing there!
21:59:29 <fizzie> There's the famous part in the first movie about "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise", when they for the remaining part of the saga can't hit the broad side of a barn.
21:59:34 <augur> http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG << obiwan
21:59:36 <augur> http://www.classesandcareers.net/education-careers/wp-content/uploads/yoda.jpg << yoda
21:59:53 <fizzie> You can tell them apart by the colour.
22:00:06 <augur> oi, dont be racist
22:00:14 <oklopol> also i do in fact remember yoda
22:00:25 <fizzie> Talked funnily did he.
22:00:29 <oklopol> i remember all things except human faces
22:00:30 <GregorR-L> Judge them not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character judge them by.
22:00:36 <augur> but not like that :D
22:00:53 <fizzie> Well, I didn't want to be a plagiarist.
22:01:07 <augur> his syntax was mostly OSV
22:01:30 <augur> language log has a whole slew of posts on yoda grammar
22:01:43 <oklopol> so... it'd be "he talked funnily"?
22:02:02 <augur> funnily he talked, hmmMMMmm?
22:02:40 <oklopol> THEN I GUESS YOU WERE NOT BEING 100% TRUTHISHFULL THERE HUH
22:02:50 <augur> gregor wasnt, at least
22:02:56 <augur> i said "but not entirely" :D
22:03:09 <GregorR-L> It's effectively the object. Object doesn't always imply noun.
22:03:12 <augur> but it is true that he can be OSV and still do that sort of thing
22:03:21 <augur> GregorR-L: its actually not really an object
22:03:42 <oklopol> GregorR: so not the object
22:03:49 <augur> its an adverbial modifier
22:03:49 <oklopol> your mom is more of an object
22:03:57 <GregorR-L> If the original sentence was "he funnily talked", then "funnily" would be an adverbial modifier.
22:04:14 <augur> its an adverbial in both cases
22:04:26 <augur> and in fact "he funnily talked" is rather bad
22:04:41 <augur> manner adverbials prefer to follow the VP in english
22:05:21 <augur> now THAT is an object. :)
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22:05:53 <oklopol> he funnily talked himself out of the situation; he talked funnily during it
22:06:03 <oklopol> no i guess that's not right.
22:06:29 <augur> "he funnily talked ..." sounds more like a parenthetical to me
22:06:43 <augur> "he funnily enough talked himself out of the situation! haha :D"
22:07:55 <oklopol> anyway, i just tried to make a "funnily enough", you make me so self-conscious of my not being native that everything feels incorrect
22:08:19 <augur> aww dont worry oklopol
22:08:37 <augur> its your incorrectnesses that enrich english
22:09:26 <oerjan> discussing grammar, are you?
22:09:29 <oklopol> most clearly that must be true
22:09:40 <augur> oerjan: indeed we are
22:09:47 <oklopol> grammar you are discussing, mmhmmmmm?
22:10:01 <augur> again bad yoda talk
22:10:05 <augur> oerjan's was correct
22:10:09 <oklopol> hey. i just know what you give me
22:10:38 <oerjan> i thought i swapped are and you
22:10:44 <oklopol> my point was mostly that your VSO sounded stupid in that one
22:10:44 <augur> you did that too, but its a question
22:10:51 <augur> and english has subject-auxiliary inversion in questions
22:11:02 <augur> yoda's grammar doesn't, afaik, change that
22:12:12 <augur> http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001269089414569134552%3Aqvjtfauf7ou&ie=UTF-8&q=yoda&sa=Search
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22:28:49 <oklopol> i can see the th-character now
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