00:00:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it does have a notion of "tasks".
00:00:12 <ehird> well yeah but those are uber-vague
00:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't know the difference between processes and threads though
00:00:47 <pikhq> And it doesn't have a fucking *clue* about doing that on multiple processors.
00:01:04 <AnMaster> they are the same on linux at least. just fork() but instead of COW it is shared on write
00:01:22 <AnMaster> the OS needs to handle scheduling across different CPUs
00:01:23 <pikhq> Of course, x86 is a series of hacks. So.
00:01:28 <ehird> processes are stupid
00:01:49 <ehird> they're the single worst example of the hardware/kernel details being exposed to the top-level
00:02:11 <AnMaster> short quotation from intel docs showing this:
00:02:33 <AnMaster> "Some bit fields in IA32_MISC_ENABLE MSR (MSR address 1A0H) may be shared between two logical processors sharing a processor core, or may be shared between different cores in a physical processor. See Appendix B, “Model-Specific Registers (MSRs)”."
00:02:51 <ehird> dual-core? don't you mean N-core
00:03:05 <ehird> i thought you meant some weird 2-core specificness
00:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to sync MTRRs between cpus btw
00:03:51 <coppro> ehird: I said "true pedants" not "pedants"
00:03:58 <ehird> AnMaster: please, can't you stop talking about this? it's making me want to get a heap of cash, buy a Symbolics and lock myself in a cave
00:03:59 <AnMaster> not properly syncing them caused some semi-(in)famous bug in linux years ago.
00:04:04 <ehird> coppro: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHetc
00:04:39 <ehird> WITHOUT EVEN AN ETHERNET CABLE
00:04:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so lets skip hyperthreading then ;P
00:05:00 <ehird> the cpu can handle hyperthreading.
00:05:05 <ehird> i doooooon't want to think about that
00:05:12 <ehird> can't i just pretend it's a core.
00:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, nop. Not on the basic level
00:05:28 <ehird> i mean hyperthreading worked in windows before the pentium 4 afaik
00:05:32 <ehird> like in the test samples.
00:05:47 <ehird> i guess it would bloat the silicon to handle the scheduling but urgh
00:05:56 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure the shipped some driver then that enabled it then
00:06:14 <ehird> so step one become the most-used OS in the world
00:06:15 <pikhq> Okay. I'm vomiting.
00:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, or maybe the interface was different back then
00:06:18 <ehird> step two make intel my bitch and do it for me
00:06:33 <pikhq> That is such an *awful* design.
00:06:34 <pikhq> AnMaster: All of x86.
00:06:45 <ehird> the result of hyperthreading is cool!
00:07:22 <pikhq> ehird: I do believe that CPUs themselves need to be more abstract. A Brainfuck machine with peripherals memory-mapped?
00:07:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want to know how debuggers work
00:07:33 <ehird> pikhq: graph reducer, bitch
00:07:34 <AnMaster> that bit makes me want to vomit
00:07:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, they hook in to the VM in question, of course.
00:07:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, traditional debuggers
00:07:59 <ehird> If you're running a legacy native code program, you hook into the emulator!
00:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
00:08:08 <pikhq> ehird: A graph reducer? That would be awesome.
00:08:10 <ehird> FLUFFY UNICORNS LA LA LA
00:08:23 <pikhq> ehird: A HASKELL MACHINE!
00:08:30 <ehird> pikhq: That's what a graph reducer is!
00:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you know about CPUID btw?
00:09:13 <ehird> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
00:09:16 <AnMaster> the think on x86 to check what the CPU supports
00:09:38 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not targeting anything below, say, core 2
00:09:49 <ehird> I'd support Atom if it did 64 bit
00:10:14 <AnMaster> however, first you must check CPUID exists. Since it didn't on 386. Thus you must first test if you can write to a specific register. If you can't bail out with "augh this is a 386. don't even try to run me"
00:10:18 <ehird> but I really have better things to do than cater to people with ancient CPUs
00:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, just showing how horrible x86 is ^
00:10:49 <ehird> that's why I'm not thinking about anything older than a few years
00:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, btw to run 64-bit you need to set up page table first
00:10:56 <pikhq> It's a bloody Haskell machine!
00:10:59 <ehird> at least modern x86_64 cpus are basically intercompatible
00:11:05 <ehird> pikhq: Yes, the Reduceron is.
00:11:07 <pikhq> ehird: Currently-produced Atom chips are 64-bit.
00:11:13 <ehird> I might support them.
00:11:17 <AnMaster> ehird, as in. you need paging enabled to enter long mode (long mode = official name for 64-bit mode)
00:11:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, I know.
00:11:34 <ehird> I'll probably set up a ridiculous paging scheme that lets me abuse it for nefarious purposes.
00:11:49 <ehird> But the first thing my OS will do is do what it needs to do to enter long mode and then do i.
00:11:53 <AnMaster> ehird, to begin with just creating a page for the entire memory might be sane
00:11:56 <ehird> Bye bye, legacy cruft.
00:12:03 <ehird> AnMaster: To begin with? Why, LoseThos never gives up that notion!
00:12:22 <AnMaster> ehird, the "enter long mode" bit is probably best coded in asm. For your own sanity I mean
00:12:34 <ehird> As well as the Forth implementation
00:12:46 <ehird> Writing my own bootloader.
00:12:52 <ehird> Why? Because GRUB's written in C. :P
00:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I would suggest forth begins directly/shortly after you entered long mode
00:13:13 <pikhq> All that using GRUB gets you is entering protected mode.
00:13:25 <pikhq> Which is *annoying*, but not too hard to write.
00:13:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is quite nice though
00:13:45 <AnMaster> entering long mode is worse than entering protected mode
00:14:00 <ehird> bootloader → long mode → forth → basic hardware setup → smalltalk vm → rest of hardware → full bootup procedure (unless it's the first time, this consists basically of restoring the last state) → done!
00:14:13 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, another issue. In long mode you need all drivers.
00:14:18 <pikhq> Protected mode is just a few frobs to the keyboard controller and a ocuple register.
00:14:21 <AnMaster> you can't enter the 16 bit mode thingy
00:14:26 <pikhq> Erm. Couple registers.
00:14:37 <ehird> AnMaster: What? You can't use the BIOS in long mode?
00:14:46 <ehird> Just making sure I'm understanding you right
00:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, basically you can't use the BIOS interrupts to handle stuff like basic hardware for you (PATA/SATA controller for example) before you written a driver
00:15:40 <ehird> Does the driver stay in 16-bit mode or something?
00:15:56 <ehird> If not, I suppose existing 64-bit OSs just DIY it?
00:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, do you know about vm86?
00:15:58 <ehird> If so, then I will.
00:16:33 <ehird> anyway, does the BIOS really do all that much for you?
00:16:47 <ehird> I imagine what with incompatibilities and the like, it wouldn't be too hard to avoid using it
00:16:56 <AnMaster> ehird, it provides slow access to hardware until you have your own drivers up and running
00:16:58 <ehird> (incompatibilities i.e. you can't rely on stuff that differs between BIOSes)
00:17:23 <ehird> that's useful for... accessing the harddrive, and not much else
00:17:25 <AnMaster> like, before you handle the VESA bit yourself you can use interrupts to make the BIOS do it.
00:17:29 <ehird> how hard can it be to use SATA?
00:17:34 <ehird> AnMaster: don't need VESA
00:17:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well VGA then. Before you have anything up however...
00:18:30 <pikhq> AnMaster, there's no sense in using BIOS interrupts for doing VGA.
00:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway my point is that until you developed your own drivers for stuff like harddrive, video, keyboard/mouse (usb emulation is provided by bios), going into long mode == bad idea
00:18:51 <ehird> There's no fancy bootup process; you turn it on, the screen sits there for a few seconds and then it turns graphical and your objects appear how you left them
00:18:58 <ehird> so I don't really need those things
00:19:07 <ehird> AnMaster: the drivers are written in forth and smalltalk
00:19:17 <pikhq> It takes less code to talk to the VGA card manually then it does to thunk to the BIOS...
00:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But I bet you won't have them ready right away
00:19:55 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that the entire number of times it interacts with the user until the smalltalk VM is up and running is zero
00:19:58 <ehird> no input, no output
00:20:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, well iirc the first few lines are traditionally done by thunk to BIOS. Like when grub is printing "Loading stage 1.5"
00:20:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still no point in it.
00:20:27 <ehird> when i was writing my os and printing out lines to the screen
00:20:31 <ehird> it's just B80000 or something
00:20:38 <ehird> and you just write to it at y*80+x or something
00:20:45 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the address of the framebuffer.
00:20:47 <ehird> line wrapping, a few lines
00:20:50 <ehird> scrolling, about ten
00:21:06 <pikhq> It's a tiny bit more complicated to actually have non-textual graphics, but even that's not hard.
00:21:14 <pikhq> Writing a couple of things to the VGA registers.
00:21:27 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, maybe I misremember that bit then. Still you need to do it for harddisk
00:21:49 <pikhq> ... Yeah, that's called "a bootloader".
00:21:55 <ehird> how hard can talking to sata be
00:22:10 <pikhq> ehird: Harder than an interrupt. :P
00:22:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that I have no clue about. But pretty hard I bet
00:22:39 <ehird> only the most simple HD access is needed until smalltalk is running and loads the full HD driver
00:22:42 <AnMaster> which is why you need memory management up
00:22:57 <AnMaster> really, every time a system managed to boot we show be overawed.
00:22:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: DMA is optional.
00:23:01 <ehird> i need to write memory management as part of the forth
00:23:15 <AnMaster> but it is quite a feat when you think about it
00:23:29 <ehird> careful! thinking like that turns you into thom yorke.
00:24:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thom_Yorke <-- wikipedia fails then
00:24:24 <ehird> never heard of that guy
00:24:29 <ehird> must be named after him or sth
00:24:48 <ehird> well he wasn't exactly famous i just like him
00:25:16 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. explain that reference though please
00:25:34 <AnMaster> that makes me similar to him when thinking that above
00:25:42 <ehird> it's a reference to his painting Rocks Crushed Over the Sky At Five O'Clock
00:26:19 <AnMaster> google doesn't turn up anything relevant
00:27:07 <AnMaster> ehird, btw your boot loader. It has to fit in a *tiny* space
00:27:37 <ehird> here's my bootloader
00:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to load something to jump to
00:28:26 <ehird> asking sata for a KB or so of code
00:28:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Boot loaders are trivial.
00:28:32 <ehird> sounds awfully hard!
00:28:35 <ehird> i could even use the bios.
00:28:37 <pikhq> Seriously, shaddup.
00:28:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't say they were hard
00:28:53 <AnMaster> was just trying to scare ehird :P
00:28:56 <pikhq> Especially since you've got a whole block to work with and BIOS interrupts.
00:29:01 <pikhq> And bootloaders don't do much.
00:29:12 <ehird> i wrote a hello world os in assembly including bootloader following a nice little tutorial thing once
00:29:14 <pikhq> It's a loop that reads a few blocks in and jumps.
00:29:18 <ehird> didn't understand a lot of the operations but
00:29:21 <Asztal> I've played tic-tac-toe in a bootloader
00:29:24 <ehird> it was rather trivial
00:29:26 <AnMaster> really I want a sane system like PPC+Open Firmware
00:29:27 <ehird> like a few hundred lines.
00:29:35 <ehird> AnMaster: whoa whoa don't call that sane, it's just better
00:29:39 <ehird> ARM + OpenFirmware, even closer
00:29:48 <ehird> but until we enter lisp machine territory, we're not sane
00:29:53 <ehird> we're just more creatively deranged
00:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster: ARM gives you a free shift in every instruction.
00:30:04 <ehird> EVERY INSTRUCTION.
00:30:07 <ehird> I rest my case. ARM is cool.
00:30:15 <ehird> Also, low heat and low poewr.
00:30:27 <ehird> power requirements, that is
00:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, shift? as in some flag to shift the value by n?
00:30:52 <ehird> you can append ; right/leftshift foo to every instruction
00:31:03 <ehird> without performance penalty
00:31:13 <AnMaster> how often is that useful I wonder
00:31:32 <ehird> in embedded work? tons!
00:31:59 <ehird> Anyway, everyone knows the only real sane platform is Itanium/EFI.
00:32:01 -!- ehird has changed nick to crickets.
00:32:06 -!- crickets has changed nick to ehird.
00:32:49 <ehird> It's a bloated OS that replaces your BIOS/OpenFirmware.
00:33:00 <ehird> lol, SGI's Altix 4000 server could have up to 2048 CPUs
00:33:12 <ehird> i guess someone hacked in one more and had to wait on xkcd's linux patch.
00:33:16 <AnMaster> ehird, linux supports up to 4096 iirc?
00:33:26 <ehird> i'm fairly sure xkcd just made that up
00:33:43 <AnMaster> ehird, fairly sure it does support 4096 ones (at least)
00:33:55 <ehird> cool how it's limited
00:33:59 <ehird> whereby cool i mean stupid
00:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, "at least" means "maybe not limited"
00:34:24 <ehird> in MYYYYYYYYY os, everything like that is a bignum
00:34:31 <ehird> INCLUDING THE DATETIME CLASS
00:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Everything?
00:41:12 * pikhq is curious how you write lambdas as a bignum
00:41:22 <ehird> EVERYTHING INTEGERIC
00:41:39 <ehird> (integeric, adj. When you start to write numeric but realise integral would be better, and want to have some fun.)
00:42:42 <pikhq> ehird: So, in other words: Integral a has one instance: Bignum.
00:42:53 <ehird> No, not in the low level Forth. :P
00:43:01 <ehird> ...and not when conversing with hardware.
00:43:26 <pikhq> That's because hardware's a bitch, and Forth's low-level.
00:44:09 <AnMaster> you just don't want to know how some structures are packed
00:44:18 <ehird> pikhq: Forth is so funly low-level.
00:44:32 <ehird> Have a string on the stack and want to shuffle it? HOPE YOU REMEMBER THEY'RE TWO SEPARATE ELEMENTS IN ONE
00:44:35 <pikhq> God, the pointer in the GDT.
00:45:01 <pikhq> Was that in 3 or 4 different parts?
00:45:24 <ehird> i gave up on my previous os because of the gdt
00:45:28 <ehird> it just triple faulted when i set it up
00:45:31 <ehird> NO MATTER WHAT ;_;
00:45:41 <ehird> even when i copied it verbatim from the bkdev tutorial
00:46:00 <pikhq> ehird: I was able to get it down to a single fault!
00:46:06 <ehird> pikhq: then you gave up? :D
00:46:09 <pikhq> (... By having an interrupt handler)
00:49:27 <AnMaster> I decided to never write an OS after seeing the GDT
00:50:29 <ehird> thankfully, in my OS I only need one segment
00:50:40 <ehird> set as completely free-for-all
00:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, Linux uses two segments iirc
00:51:48 <ehird> i know of no such thing!
00:52:08 <pikhq> The two segments more map to "ring 0" and "ring 3".
00:52:24 <pikhq> OpenBSD has twice as many segments.
00:52:32 <pikhq> Read xor execute. ;)
00:52:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: It lets them emulate the NX bit.
00:52:57 <pikhq> They split the memory space in half.
00:53:05 <ehird> pikhq: what a waste of memory!
00:53:06 <pikhq> One side has read/write stuff.
00:53:08 -!- morenel has left (?).
00:53:12 <pikhq> One side has executable stuff.
00:53:20 <ehird> anyway all RWX ftw!
00:53:21 <pikhq> ehird: That's only one systems without the NX bit.
00:53:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Totally unneeded in my OS!
00:53:52 <AnMaster> ehird, great for protecting against bugs though
00:54:05 <ehird> You can't read/write to memory directly.
00:54:30 <AnMaster> everything that helps detect bugs early == a good thing
00:54:43 <ehird> You know that the Forth layer is expected to be at its most bloated and fullest, say, 10,000 lines?
00:54:48 <ehird> That's after years.
00:55:03 <ehird> Anyway, using NX in Forth code would...
00:55:19 <ehird> Forth never executes machine code like that
00:55:24 <ehird> and you can still run anything as a forth word
00:55:31 <ehird> so it'd only help to catch bugs in the underlying Forth implementation
00:55:35 * AnMaster imagines a x86_128 where NX would be required
00:55:41 <ehird> and said implementation will be quite short and very low-level
00:55:46 <ehird> In conclusion, NX doesn't help me at all.
00:56:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: How many people need to address 302231454903657293676544 petabytes, anyways?
00:57:13 * ehird looks at his Dyson sphere as a holograph.
00:57:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, not yet indeed. I bet it will happen faster than we expect though
00:57:17 <pikhq> (128 is a *very* big number)
00:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, passing 2^64 faster
00:57:40 <AnMaster> 2^128 is probably quite safe due to number of atoms and so on
00:57:57 <AnMaster> but 96 bit adressing would be really quite awkward
00:58:10 <AnMaster> so I bet they will just jump to 2^128
00:58:17 <ehird> If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears.
00:58:43 <pikhq> Thereby letting you mmap the entirety of the Universe.
00:58:47 <AnMaster> <ehird> If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears. <-- amazing :D
00:59:36 <AnMaster> unless we discover multiverse or something
01:00:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you still want paging however. To handle swap and such
01:00:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: His entire design implies paging.
01:01:06 <pikhq> And having the entire hard drive mapped in memory. ;)
01:01:18 <AnMaster> I was fearing he would go for "single page"
01:01:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:01:39 <pikhq> But that would make it very hard to do object persistence.
01:02:17 <pikhq> Much, much easier to give objects their own pages that may or may not be on the disk.
01:02:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, quite a bit of waste of space there
01:02:50 <AnMaster> and there will be lots of small objects
01:03:22 <pikhq> There's a bit of waste for small processes on UNIX, and there's a *lot* of small processes.
01:03:36 <pikhq> It is, in fact, a defining aspect.
01:03:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, not quite as many as there would be objects
01:03:53 <AnMaster> assuming objects are as fine graded as I understood him
01:04:13 <pikhq> It's about the same waste involved in having a lot of small files on the disk.
01:04:24 <pikhq> ... Nobody even *talks* about that waste.
01:04:44 <AnMaster> I considered a pool system to solve it
01:04:52 <pikhq> You're a freak who still has a sub-1GB drive.
01:04:56 <AnMaster> having the disk split in two parts. "large" and "small"
01:05:19 <AnMaster> somewhat like the heap and stack grows from different ends
01:06:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, like having 4 KB blocks at one end, and 1 KB at the other end
01:09:04 -!- coppro has joined.
01:09:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Freak who has a sub-1MB drive, I meant.
01:09:59 <pikhq> Then WHY THE CRAP DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?
01:10:43 <pikhq> If you've lost more than 100MB from the waste involved in having a large amount of small files, I will buy a hat and then eat my hat!
01:12:03 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:12:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have. By having 16 GB of sub-1KB files.
01:12:28 <AnMaster> is stored in a horrible format.
01:12:44 <AnMaster> one file with altitudes per each 0.1 degrees lat/long iirc
01:12:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you know what?
01:12:56 <ehird> New drives are going to have BIGGER BLOCKS.
01:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on the file system
01:13:19 <ehird> I mean drive level
01:13:41 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. But FS can use less
01:13:50 <AnMaster> and that is what matters for space waste
01:14:00 <pikhq> Yes, but it is *absurdly* painful and inefficient to do so.
01:14:00 <ehird> anyway, I'm wasting space by never deleting anything and revisioning every single change
01:14:06 <ehird> and persisting generic objects
01:14:12 <ehird> instead of hand-tinkered formats
01:14:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and megabyte sized blocks is absurd too
01:14:24 <ehird> so a big fuck-you-and-buy-a-big-drive, AnMaster :P
01:14:44 <AnMaster> well not if you assume gnu userland :P
01:14:50 <ehird> pikhq: so, let's talk about how AnMaster is a dinosaur
01:15:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC.
01:15:29 <ehird> Fuck files. Fuuuuuuuuck files.
01:15:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, /bin/ls is 108 KB. 64-bit GNU userland
01:15:35 <ehird> Files are for bedwetters.
01:16:00 <ehird> AnMaster: please, tell me how many files you have in /bin, /usr/bin and /etc
01:16:18 <pikhq> For comparison, /bin/busybox is 976K.
01:16:22 <ehird> Fine, /usr/lib too.
01:16:37 <AnMaster> find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib | wc -l # *waits*
01:17:22 <AnMaster> but /usr/share contains lots of small files too
01:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: So, if we have 1MB blocks, then your files would take up 7.9GB total (ignoring the larger files which will be rare).
01:18:13 <ehird> AnMaster: So, a FORTIETH of a modern-sized drive.
01:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, waiting for /usr/share which mostly contain small files
01:18:27 <pikhq> Including share, I get: 195622
01:18:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, /usr/share still scanning here
01:18:41 <pikhq> (I install documentation for everything)
01:18:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember the inode thing.
01:18:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Clearly you need ext4.
01:18:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use that on my new laptop
01:19:08 <AnMaster> # find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib /usr/lib32 /usr/share | wc -l
01:19:26 <AnMaster> I don't install docs for everything
01:19:34 <ehird> [01:15] pikhq: AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC.
01:19:55 <ehird> Yeah. They're not laptops any more.
01:20:21 <ehird> Hmm, seems Lenovo actually still refers to ThinkPads as laptops.
01:20:23 <ehird> That's just asking for trouble.
01:20:41 <ehird> AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating
01:20:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is "bärbar" in Swedish. Translates to "carry-able"
01:20:55 <ehird> admittedly you might need a beefy lap and some hardcore computation to do that, but
01:21:01 <ehird> AnMaster: that's some low standard for a portable computer!
01:21:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well, literal translation...
01:22:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating <-- not yet. You will in the future I bet :P
01:22:27 <AnMaster> when you want to get children yourself
01:22:34 <ehird> so approximately never then
01:22:35 <AnMaster> sorry, it is some biological instinct
01:22:44 <ehird> so is killing animals for food
01:22:49 <ehird> with your bare hands and some crude tools
01:22:51 <ehird> have you done that lately?
01:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant, on the level or hormones
01:23:02 <pikhq> ehird: You mean that most people *don't* do that?
01:23:04 <ehird> the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level
01:23:25 <ehird> if you don't go out hunting every night armed with barely anything, then you are "denying" your instincts just as much as I do
01:23:29 <ehird> pikhq: they use guns
01:23:35 <ehird> you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock
01:23:54 <pikhq> ehird: Sure you can.
01:24:07 <pikhq> It just needs a lot of bootstrapping.
01:24:27 <ehird> AnMaster: care to answer me?
01:24:45 <ehird> all of the above ↑
01:24:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock <-- I agree with what pikhq said there
01:25:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> pikhq: they use guns <-- true
01:25:22 <ehird> the part where i wasn't talking to pikhq.
01:25:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level <-- hm. not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that the "food" instinct is "get food some way" not "that specific way"
01:25:55 <ehird> yeah I guess all those neanderthal hunters were just really inventive.
01:26:14 <AnMaster> ehird, um. heard about learning?
01:26:36 <GregorR-L> Animals such as these Sapiens in particular.
01:26:39 <ehird> that's totally not my point, but
01:26:47 <ehird> the fact is that there are plenty of people with no wish to breed at all
01:27:11 <ehird> just as we don't do just about every other instinct we have
01:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, elks for example. Children follow their mother to learn what is editable and what isn't
01:27:26 <AnMaster> saw this on some nature program on TV years ago
01:27:32 <coppro> AnMaster: if it has a read-only switch, it's not editable
01:27:36 <ehird> "When in doubt, try and steer the conversation to the previous topic."
01:28:11 <GregorR-L> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg Is this hat not the gaudiest thing you've ever seen?
01:28:12 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Not just Sapiens.
01:28:23 <AnMaster> eatable I meant except it isn't spelled that
01:28:29 <pikhq> Homo neanderthalensis, notably, was more intelligent that Homo sapiens. ;)
01:28:33 <ehird> AnMaster: so, are you seriously saying that every single human gets the overpowering urge to have children for the rest of their lives?
01:28:40 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Bigger brain != more intelligent
01:28:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm suggesting it is a strong instinct. Not one possible to overcome
01:29:03 <pikhq> GregorR-L: They were demonstrably intelligent, at least.
01:29:12 <AnMaster> but harder to overcome than "must hunt food myself"
01:29:12 <pikhq> (tool creation, graves, etc.)
01:29:22 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Sure. But not demonstrably intelligent enough to build fucking cities, so we kinda win on that one.
01:29:22 <AnMaster> just look at the population of the world
01:29:32 <AnMaster> before you suggest anything else :P
01:29:32 <ehird> Does anyone want to snap AnMaster back to reality
01:29:48 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Eh, that's a matter of failing at the ice age is all.
01:30:15 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Neanderthals were around for longer than we have been around.
01:30:43 <GregorR-L> pikhq: In all that time they never figured out anywhere near the level of technology we had in some 10K years.
01:30:44 <AnMaster> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg <-- wow. is it new?
01:30:45 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Touché.
01:30:48 <GregorR-L> pikhq: So no, they just f***ing lose.
01:30:55 <ehird> AnMaster: You're misplacing the urge.
01:31:03 <ehird> The urge is to have sex; the evolutionary intention is for reproduction.
01:31:17 <ehird> But the urge isn't "I really want some GOD DAMN BABIES".
01:31:22 <ehird> "GOD. DAMN. BABIES."
01:31:29 <AnMaster> ehird, actually there is more to it than that. Do you think a baby crying sounds horrible?
01:31:39 <AnMaster> Yet you see older people that seems to find it cute.
01:31:43 <ehird> AnMaster: That has nothing to do with actually having babies.
01:31:48 <ehird> That's to do with once you've got one.
01:31:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Do not put the baby on the plate?
01:31:52 <ehird> Of course there are childrearing instincts.
01:32:00 <GregorR-L> pikhq: DO put the baby on the plate! :P
01:32:00 <ehird> There are not fuck-to-make-a-kid instincts; there are fuck instincts.
01:32:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. But you are affected by people *around* you having babies
01:32:18 <AnMaster> I'm not yet at this age. Thank god for it.
01:32:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: I can conclude that you have a uterus from that statement.
01:32:24 <GregorR-L> I don't think the instinct to have sex is "make babies", I think it's "put my penis in that"
01:32:27 <ehird> "Is that the new Baby 3000?!?!?!?!?!?!"
01:32:31 <ehird> "Omigosh! I want one!"
01:32:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, no. You can conclude I read too much bilogy
01:32:46 <ehird> "Hey, wifey! Can I put my penis in you? I want to make a baby 3000."
01:32:57 <ehird> Bilogy: It's like biology but full of absolute bilge.
01:33:09 <pikhq> ehird: No, it's the study of bile.
01:34:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, apparently men feel some sort of "take care of babies" instincts too. Not as strongly though. At least that is what I have heard.
01:34:44 <ehird> Yes, take care of ALREADY EXISTING BABIES.
01:35:14 <AnMaster> but see what I said above when you joked about model 3000
01:35:24 <ehird> Once you've satisfied your "Let me vigourously move my penis inwards and outwards of this opening" urge, a little thing appears and you have to satisfy your "Let me stop this thing making that noise" urge.
01:35:39 <ehird> This helps reproduction, but at no stage is the urge "Let me create a thing that makes that noise".
01:37:04 <GregorR-L> How strong is the paternal instinct in humans? Arguably the two instincts you've presented are by two different people :P
01:37:32 <ehird> The point is that males, at least, don't get the urge to make a whiney pooping vomiting thing.
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01:38:02 <ehird> …and thus concluding the argument that I could have one from the start by pointing to a sales chart of condoms.
01:38:29 <GregorR-L> There were some people wandering about Manhattan giving away "Obama condoms"
01:39:07 <ehird> Sounds... awesome.
01:39:54 <GregorR-L> As far as I can tell they're PURELY a joke. There is actually no political message at all.
01:40:10 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That's awesome.
01:43:32 <ehird> http://www.obamacondoms.com/
01:43:42 <ehird> "Who says experience is necessary?" x_x
01:43:49 <ehird> "For the elitist penis"
01:44:04 <ehird> http://www.practicesafepolicy.com/
01:44:48 <ehird> http://www.thepalincondom.com/ When abortion is not an option!
01:44:52 <ehird> That's their actual slogan.
01:45:12 <pikhq> ehird: I presume they come with a hole in them?
01:45:27 <ehird> pikhq: No, those are Catholic Condoms.
01:45:57 <pikhq> Catholic condoms allow all the sperm to go through.
01:46:00 <pikhq> After all, every sperm is sacred.
01:46:08 <ehird> It is a very big hole.
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02:26:13 <ehird> Okay, "kilobit" is now pissing me off.
02:27:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with that
02:27:30 <ehird> A kilobit is used to mean 1000 bytes.
02:27:54 <ehird> Also, "kilobyte" is not 1024. Kilo means 1000.
02:28:00 <ehird> Therefore, I am switching to the following unit system:
02:28:10 <ehird> SI prefixes, including kilo- mean that. The resulting unit means that.
02:28:21 <ehird> Kibi is the retarded nearest-power-of-2 prefixes.
02:28:25 <ehird> as well as mebi, etc.
02:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, most people don't use the kibi and such
02:28:38 <AnMaster> rather they use the SI ones to mean 1024
02:28:50 <ehird> Kilo- is lowercase k, just like SI.
02:28:55 <ehird> 1 kB = 1000 bytes.
02:28:59 <pikhq> ehird: Congrats, you're using the *standard*.
02:29:07 <ehird> 1 KiB = 1024 bytes.
02:29:15 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, most people use 1000
02:29:19 <ehird> like HD manufacturers do
02:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well. last I looked windows didn't in the properties window
02:30:03 <ehird> Yeah, but most people don't look at that.
02:30:13 <ehird> Anyway, the difference usually doesn't matter, so those who don't know what it means won't suffer from this.
02:30:21 <ehird> But from now on, I-
02:30:26 <ehird> I think K is the SI prefix, not k.
02:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, if B is byte, what is bit then
02:30:42 <ehird> AnMaster: also, note that CPU cycles, ethernet, wireless bands, ... also use the 1000 system
02:31:10 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK, SI.
02:31:14 <ehird> It's k, but M and G and T.
02:31:18 <ehird> THAT MAKES SENSE?!
02:31:31 <pikhq> ehird: K is a unit.
02:31:43 <ehird> pikhq: I know but they do it for h, da, d, c, m, u, n, p, f, a, z and y too.
02:31:54 <ehird> And everything above k - M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y is uppercase.
02:31:57 <ehird> SO FUCK THAT SHIT.
02:33:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
02:33:41 <ehird> Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TB = 1024 GiB. PB = 1024 TiB.
02:33:57 <ehird> Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TiB = 1024 GiB. PiB = 1024 TiB.
02:34:07 <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-i versions.
02:34:24 <AnMaster> just to confuse things. this is not same as SNMP MIB
02:34:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-i versions. <-- nop, makes less sense for stuff like ram
02:35:11 <ehird> Things that aren't talking directly to silicon.
02:36:33 <ehird> Pebibyte sure is awkward to say.
02:37:25 <ehird> http://pastie.org/577068.txt?key=jap84dhxsagpjw0jgks8g
02:37:28 <ehird> Official standard.
02:37:37 <ehird> I will now make sure this survives pastie by repeating it in-channel.
02:37:45 <ehird> The SI-friendly information storage units
02:37:45 <ehird> 1 kB (kilobyte) = 1000 bytes
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 MB (megabyte) = 1000 kB
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 GB (gigabyte) = 1000 MB
02:37:46 <ehird> 1 TB (terabyte) = 1000 GB
02:37:47 <ehird> 1 PB (petabyte) = 1000 TB
02:37:51 <ehird> 1 kiB (kibibyte) = 1024 bytes
02:37:53 <ehird> 1 MiB (mebibyte) = 1024 kiB
02:37:55 <ehird> 1 GiB (gibibyte) = 1024 MiB
02:37:57 <ehird> 1 TiB (tebibyte) = 1024 GiB
02:37:59 <ehird> 1 PiB (pebibyte) = 1024 TiB
02:38:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> Pebibyte sure is awkward to say. <-- don't think so?
02:38:03 <ehird> When defining new measures, use the non-bi units whenever reasonable (just
02:38:05 <ehird> about everything that doesn't talk directly to silicon).
02:38:11 <ehird> Now it's done, and I can get on with my life.
02:38:40 <ehird> no, byte is a fundamental unit
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03:12:06 <TimMcD> I would like to run an esolang idea by you guys. You up for it? ;)
03:12:40 <pikhq> Would be the first time we've been on topic this week.
03:12:47 <TimMcD> http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
03:13:17 <TimMcD> That's the link to a doc describing the lang
03:13:30 <TimMcD> good idea? bad idea? The kind of idea that makes bile rise in your throat?
03:13:51 <pikhq> Fighting pitiful Internet ATM.
03:14:25 <TimMcD> mm I'll type some of it our here then.
03:15:21 <TimMcD> My idea is based around blocks made up of rows, which are made up of cells. A cell '[]' contains 4 characters, two for the identifier (like classes/types) and two for the method/block identifier. A basic hello world:
03:15:55 <TimMcD> so is standard output identifier, 0 being the identifier for the block that prints out the next cell
03:16:09 <TimMcD> Rr, sorry, its actually
03:16:19 <TimMcD> [so0][c0][Hello, world!]
03:16:24 <TimMcD> c0 is a generator for strings
03:17:29 <pikhq> Not awful, but quite interesting.
03:17:36 <pikhq> Refreshingly unique semantics.
03:18:26 <TimMcD> I feel like there needs to be a betterway to generate strings
03:18:44 <TimMcD> I was thinking of somethign like:
03:18:45 <TimMcD> [c0][H][e][l][l][o]...
03:18:57 <TimMcD> But that would make it even harder to read
03:19:01 <TimMcD> and be a pain to type out
03:20:39 <pikhq> Bit distracted ATM.
03:31:37 <TimMcD> Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
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03:45:40 <GregorR-L> So anyway, rule 90 tie: http://www.zazzle.com/rule_90_tie-151155765045023221
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04:39:50 <pikhq> Collapse the probability wave.
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04:42:18 <TimMcD> pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see.
04:42:32 <TimMcD> http://etherpad.com/esolangideas , any thoughts? I understand that string handling could be/should be better...
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08:03:16 <AnMaster> <TimMcD> Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas <-- if only it loaded
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08:38:39 <coppro> it's pretty neat, actually
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09:50:45 <MizardX> http://etherpad.com/ep/pad/export/esolangideas/latest?format=txt
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13:49:49 <oklopol> Pthing: i had a dream about you
13:50:00 <oklopol> i think i was angry at you for some reason
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14:10:16 <ais523> ehird: obviously there aren't any here, you didn't get a reply
14:10:26 <ehird> vagabonds are very humble/secretive, pick one
14:12:08 <ehird> 20:42:18 <TimMcD> pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see.
14:12:17 <ehird> how I sarcastically read this:
14:12:22 <ehird> brainfuck AND esoteric languages I see.
14:12:58 <ais523> haskell has many of the good points of an esolang, whilst actually being practical
14:13:07 <ehird> 00:03:29 <AnMaster> maybe it needs javascript
14:13:07 <ehird> i look forward to the day where every web page requires javascript, just to see you demand all links start with gopher://
14:13:24 <ehird> replying to AnMaster
14:13:40 <ais523> well, I think people should use gopher to serve up the Javascript for HTML pages
14:13:47 <ehird> it's funny because etherpad is actually a neat and useful thingy
14:13:57 <ehird> (it's gobby, but online so you can just throw someone a link)
14:16:43 <ehird> (although it wasn't too good until recently due to being slow; it got better when the makers decided to focus on it instead of the web application backend thinamagic they built it on)
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14:22:09 <ais523> ehird: it's a chemistry pun
14:22:46 <ehird> how likely is it that anyone would get that?
14:23:40 <ais523> but I've been waiting months to make that pun
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14:28:41 <ehird> "this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric
14:28:44 <ehird> administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration."
14:28:49 <ehird> — http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/98rob/seriously_rnc_oh_its_on_now/c0btuoq
14:29:09 <ehird> <libertarian> Pfft, the free market can do that.
14:29:19 <ehird> <libertarian> With magic.
14:30:31 <ehird> (Funny how such a good comment is followed in two steps by: "tl;dr, but upvoted and made this comment so that I can come back tomorrow after I've had a good night's sleep.")
14:31:04 <ehird> (Six paragraphs, one is very short (being the title), two are short.)
14:31:17 <ehird> (Maybe we should just start prescribing ritalin to *everyone*.)
14:40:48 <pikhq> ehird: You've got to give libertarians *some* credit. ... I can't come up with any reason why.
14:41:50 <ehird> They are advancing stupidity research!
14:42:46 <Pthing> they made snow crash possible?
14:42:52 <pikhq> There we go. That's what I was looking for.
14:43:01 <ehird> Snow Crash - some definition of possible
14:43:15 <Pthing> i meant the writing of it
14:43:34 <ehird> What, did they take away all of his state-given resources or something?
14:43:36 <ehird> And this gave him superpowers?
14:44:00 <Pthing> he wouldn't have had the anarchocapitalist setting
14:44:06 <pikhq> ehird: Hmm. Well, *one* actual thing about libertarians: they take what the Republicans *claim* to be in support of and actually *support* it.
14:44:07 <ehird> good! then we wouldn't have as many shitty books
14:44:19 <pikhq> That is, they're at least *honest* about what they believe.
14:44:38 <pikhq> Ain't much, but it's something.
14:50:00 * ehird lols that yourworldoftext.com uses repeated ajax requests instead of comet
14:50:07 <ehird> Didn't people learn from the counter?
14:51:29 <pikhq> Y'know the major problem that "ZOMG FREE MARKET" people have? An ideal free market is like an ideal gas: it doesn't *exist*. It's just a useful model.
14:52:05 <ehird> It's made of magic and fluffiness.
14:52:13 <ehird> That's why, if you try and touch it to make it better, it turns into rage itself.
14:52:16 <ehird> And kills everyone.
14:52:23 <ehird> No matter how small the change.
14:52:30 <pikhq> ehird: So, what you're saying is that, if you get rid of all governments, it all magically works?
14:52:40 <ehird> No, you need a government to guard the free market, duh.
14:52:48 <ehird> Also to enforce property!
14:52:54 <ais523> a completely free market would fail because people dislike immigrants
14:53:04 <ehird> ais523: ok, *that's* ... a new one
14:53:07 <ais523> without free migration you can't have a free market
14:53:08 <pikhq> So, the government would do... Half of what the retards dislike.
14:53:15 <ehird> have i missed several steps of logical deduction or are you on crack
14:53:23 <pikhq> (antitrust regulation)
14:53:24 <ais523> because otherwise you don't have a free market in labour
14:53:29 <ehird> pikhq: nooo who said antitrust
14:53:33 <ehird> pikhq: they just stop other people interfering
14:53:43 <pikhq> ehird: Right, antitrust.
14:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: that's far too indirect for the libtards to understand!
14:53:56 <ais523> ehird: there's only about half a step of logical deduction there
14:54:25 <ehird> speaking of idiotic economics, I am going to carefully consider any PBA suggestion that doesn't come from BobTHJ :-P
14:54:48 <ehird> "My goal is to slowly continue to add information to my database until
14:54:48 <ehird> the full state of Agora is tracked."
14:54:52 <ehird> Kill him! Kill him with FIRE!
15:21:06 <AnMaster> sigh https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/359578
15:21:17 <AnMaster> ehird, guess what chipset I have? :D
15:21:34 <ehird> Gee, I was going to guess "not that one".
15:22:01 <AnMaster> it seems like an interesting game though
15:30:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I found a rather odd software. A train driving simulator.
15:30:52 <ehird> sounds... riveting
15:31:00 <ehird> drive from both ends at once and rip it in two!
15:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, there was only one supported train in the version in ubuntu at least.
15:31:32 <AnMaster> http://openbve.trainsimcentral.co.uk/
15:31:57 <AnMaster> btw, 3D graphics ran smooth of the laptop, but cpu fan ended up working at highest speed.
15:33:28 * AnMaster builds warzone2100 using gentoo portage. better gpu on there :P
15:33:41 <ehird> AnMaster: not better gpu
15:33:56 <ehird> the gpus should be somewhat equal
15:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I wonder how much video memory the intel one has...
15:34:13 <AnMaster> as in. dedicated. Not shared main memory
15:34:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what model is it?
15:34:42 <AnMaster> well. the gerforce 7600 has 512 MB RAM
15:35:50 <AnMaster> Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07) is all lspci says
15:38:08 <AnMaster> closest I can find is "host bridge"... hm
15:38:35 <AnMaster> which is "Mobile 4 Series Chipset Memory Controller Hub". Lots of details in that... NOT
15:38:52 <ehird> Oh, just tell me what laptop you bought.
15:39:00 <ehird> oops, *notebook <_< >_>
15:39:11 <AnMaster> R500 yes. *looks for specific model number*
15:39:24 <ehird> they only offer one integrated gpu
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15:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: GMA 4500MHD. It can use over 512MB of your RAM if you want.
15:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, main memory has to compete bandwidth with CPU though
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15:40:57 <AnMaster> as in, both graphics and programs running on CPU will use the same memory
15:44:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, the joke in IWC was quite awful today, don't you agree?
15:44:54 <AnMaster> darth and droids more than made up for it though :D
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15:55:06 <ehird> http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level this is great
15:56:03 <oerjan> i tried it a bit yesterday
15:56:33 <oerjan> i think i got to the dreaded pink strip level
15:57:01 <oklopol> don't tell me that's a game
15:57:01 <oerjan> no wait that wasn't it
15:57:07 <ehird> oklopol: it's one level
15:57:09 <ehird> over and over again
15:57:34 <ehird> oklopol: try it and see.
15:57:52 <oerjan> i gave up at that level "arrows" that treated the mouse (trackpad in my case) as arrow keys or something
15:58:13 <ehird> stage 15 has me stumped
15:58:40 <oerjan> i expect it would be easier with a genuine mouse
15:58:50 <ehird> you just have to go left and right
16:00:51 <Deewiant> My time was around 7:40 IIRC (did it yesterday)
16:01:01 <ehird> what, for all of it?
16:01:08 <ehird> I'm on stage 15 and 8 minutes in...
16:01:13 <ehird> how do you do stage 15
16:01:18 <ehird> it's the time to refresh one
16:01:23 <ehird> the button does nothing and there's a green plank
16:01:44 <ehird> JAVA GAMES ARE AN UNTRESSPASSABLE SANDBOX
16:01:48 <ehird> THIS IS MY MENTAL MODEL
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16:02:25 <ehird> hey it reset to 5 minutes
16:02:57 <oklopol> does it get hard at some poine?
16:02:59 <Deewiant> Heh, I guess it can't count the time you spent on level 15 :-)
16:03:32 <ehird> and it's not hard per se
16:03:34 <oklopol> how many levels are there?
16:03:35 <ehird> but you have to think a little
16:03:37 <Deewiant> It's an amusing design but not /really/ interesting
16:03:42 <ehird> but each one takes like 10 seconds
16:04:18 <ehird> how does stage 18 work...
16:04:20 <ehird> the collapsing one
16:04:23 <ehird> you go on top of right
16:05:58 <oklopol> okay, i managed to do something very clever on "time to refresh"
16:06:40 <ehird> that's what you're meant to.
16:06:52 <ehird> yeah confused me too
16:07:09 <oklopol> i just assumed it wasn't the correct thing to do
16:07:19 <fizzie> Thank the foo it was that short.
16:07:31 <fizzie> I have to finish my thesis today, and there are still 42 TODO comments in it.
16:07:58 <ehird> anyway stage 24 is the odd
16:08:18 <fizzie> Which one was 24 again?
16:08:46 <fizzie> Ah. Well, it wasn't that odd.
16:08:58 <fizzie> Though I did try shift first.
16:09:31 <oklopol> what's the idea of "mime's folly"?
16:09:40 <ehird> you know when they like
16:09:45 <ehird> and they look real
16:09:56 <ehird> (basically there's an invisible wall.)
16:10:08 <fizzie> It's pretty possible not to notice the wall, though.
16:10:20 <Deewiant> One level was annoying without QWERTY, I forget which one it was
16:10:33 <ehird> Deewiant: center keyboard
16:10:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "middle keyboarder" or some such.
16:12:04 <ehird> 11:57:62.5, 63 deaths
16:12:15 <Deewiant> With my layout those are FETH... could have been worse, but still
16:12:50 <Deewiant> (I.e. those are in the respective places of FETH on a QWERTY)
16:13:53 <Deewiant> Anyway, just in case you aren't aware there are other games featuring the elephant
16:13:55 <ehird> meh now I've addicted myself to flash games again
16:13:58 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave
16:13:58 <ehird> Deewiant: there ARE?
16:14:01 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
16:14:02 <ehird> i love that guy already!
16:14:11 <ehird> i mean i loved how it was just... an elephant
16:14:15 <Deewiant> http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run
16:14:40 <Deewiant> Achievement Unlocked was somewhat amusing
16:15:00 <ehird> wow elephant rave is x_x
16:15:28 <oklopol> okay god that was pointless
16:15:56 <ehird> try achievement unlocked
16:16:41 <fizzie> Incidentally, there was one elephant-themed 4k intro. It wasn't in the "serious 4k" category, but people still voted for it: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=53606
16:16:42 <oklopol> that was like completely the opposite of what kind of games i like, i want to think inside the box, and have complex puzzles
16:16:57 <ehird> achievement unlocked is like this is the only level + 34785345873485478583745
16:16:59 <oklopol> and this was the other way around
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16:23:56 <oerjan> so there are only 34785345873485478583746 levels? how frugal.
16:24:00 <Deewiant> Welp, managed that in 501 seconds and only had to check one hint
16:24:34 <Deewiant> I've done it before though, so it doesn't quite count
16:25:17 <fizzie> 80% done in 400 seconds, but I'm not going to try any time-trialings.
16:25:24 <fizzie> And my thesis! You bastards!
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16:26:04 <ehird> hee, i jumped top-right and killed myself like 5 times on the spike
16:26:47 <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
16:27:30 <ehird> `addquote <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
16:27:31 <fizzie> Based on the horizontal and vertical confusions, I hope total confusion is not "all direction keys at once", since I don't think I can get it with this keyboard. It's not, right?
16:27:31 <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
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16:29:28 * oerjan was going to suggest someone ban fizzie, but then...
16:29:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
16:29:58 <ehird> is liftoff 3-2-1-fly up?
16:30:39 <oerjan> lament: please kickban fizzie. it's for his own good, he has a thesis to finish.
16:32:37 <ehird> Deewiant: how come 0-1-2-3-4-5 doesn't get that
16:33:02 <ehird> "I can count to 5!"
16:33:19 <Deewiant> Maybe you messed up and hit something twice
16:34:44 <fizzie> 890 seconds. Please stop with the elephants.
16:35:21 <ehird> I wonder why all those squares hide you
16:35:50 <ehird> you still have http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave and http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run to play, anyway!
16:36:12 <fizzie> I tried, but they seemed to be more skill-based.
16:36:20 <fizzie> Can you even "finish" them?
16:36:25 <ehird> That does not EXCUSE YOU
16:39:26 <ehird> what's programmer's credit
16:39:50 <ehird> that turned my elephant pink. maybe i mistyped.
16:40:02 <ehird> oh, must have been a different number
16:40:54 <ehird> what's speedy downfall :P
16:41:33 <ehird> oh, lol, the numbers change elephant colour
16:41:41 <ehird> so i must have done jmt02 or something at first
16:42:30 <ehird> yay i did speedy downfall
16:43:10 <ehird> must be something with that orange starting point
16:45:15 <ehird> Deewiant: what's the seat thing
16:45:54 <ehird> get off your seats
16:46:17 <Deewiant> Oh, that's the one I had to lookup
16:46:27 <Deewiant> There /is/ a hint button, you know
16:46:37 <ehird> I know, but I might see other ones.
16:46:50 <Deewiant> #32: Get Off Your Seats = Jump for 10 seconds nonstop
16:48:27 <ehird> Uhh, it told me I entered the contra code
16:48:46 <Deewiant> I think it just needs UUDDLRLR
16:48:58 <ehird> i did that in another app i think maybe
16:49:08 <ehird> so konami code right
16:49:10 <ehird> contra confused me
16:49:24 <ehird> Deewiant: too much free tiem is completion right
16:49:36 <ehird> so I just have to liftoff
16:51:00 <ehird> so i was on the right track
16:51:02 <ehird> you could have told me
16:53:47 <pikhq> Palin makes me ashamed of my species.
16:54:31 <pikhq> No. I intend to convince biologists that there are two extant subspecies of Homo sapiens.
16:54:42 <pikhq> Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens stultus.
16:54:45 <ehird> haha run elephant run is fun
16:54:52 <ehird> pikhq: no, homo sapiens sapiens and homo spaiens palin
16:55:08 <pikhq> ehird: Stultus covers more than Palin.
16:58:52 <ehird> run elephant run on easy was uh
17:01:02 * oerjan discovers to his surprise that pikhq is _not_ mangling latin there
17:01:29 * oerjan then swats ehird for doing exactly that -----###
17:01:42 <ehird> you're so horrible to me.
17:02:18 <pikhq> oerjan: My roommate studied Latin for 4 years in high school.
17:02:35 <pikhq> Mangled Latin makes him wince, and it's starting to make *me* wince.
17:03:39 * oerjan expects to be hit by Lex Muphriensis on the matter soon
17:03:43 <ehird> yesterday (well, today) i walked around town barefoot at 3am :D
17:04:53 <oerjan> in the weekend? i'd be worried about broken beer bottles...
17:05:09 <ehird> actually, the streets were all smooth
17:05:20 <ehird> a few little pieces of glass here and there but perfectly walkable
17:05:34 <ehird> also warm and very quiet
17:06:08 <ehird> clear sky, too; I swear if I looked above in just the right way I could see the earth's curvature :P
17:12:46 <ehird> huh, i just realised there's no "random video" button on youtube
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17:14:02 <ehird> hmm, you could simulate it
17:14:15 <ehird> go to all the videos linked easily from youtube pages, go to every one of the related and same person ones in random order
17:14:19 <ehird> for like half an hour
17:14:25 <ehird> then just use your now fucked up recommendations
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17:26:09 <ehird> 3d glasses are amazing
17:27:06 <pikhq> US military expenditures: $623 billion. Rest of the world combined: $500 billion.
17:27:09 <pikhq> I'm going to go be sad now.
17:27:23 <ehird> i didn't know it was that bad
17:27:56 <pikhq> This... Is sheer madness.
17:28:10 <pikhq> And no, it is not Sparta.
17:28:46 <oerjan> look on the bright side of it. even with _that_ expenditure, they got trouble with Iraq + Afghanistan.
17:29:29 <pikhq> That's because guerilla warfare > organised warfare.
17:29:39 <ehird> discovery: drinking while wearing 3d glasses is hard
17:29:41 <pikhq> (see: most revolutions)
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17:43:54 <ehird> why does Wikipedia's preference page want to know my gender :\
17:44:12 <ais523> ehird: it's for languages other than English
17:44:18 <ais523> so they can use the right form of words like 'the'
17:44:23 <ehird> Optional: used for gender-correct addressing by the software. This information will be public.
17:44:35 <ehird> ais523: are you sure it isn't "he/her" or something?
17:44:48 <ehird> ais523: anyway, that's monumentally stupid; why does it need to be PUBLIC?
17:44:54 <ais523> that's how it could be relevant in English, but IIRC it comes up a lot more elsewhere
17:45:00 <ais523> and it's public because it's shown to other people
17:45:13 <ais523> as in, even something as simple as "user contributions" could change depending on the gender of the user
17:45:18 <ais523> in various foreign languages
17:45:25 <ais523> and that's in the sidebar, for everyone
17:45:35 <ehird> and I thought English was genderist
17:46:12 <ehird> ais523: what does it do if you leave it unspecified?
17:46:16 <ehird> and why can't it do that for everyone?
17:47:09 <ehird> I bet it does something stupid, like assume the user is male or something
17:47:20 <ais523> given what I know of MediaWiki, that wouldn't surprise me in the least
17:48:00 <ehird> wait till they find out that some people consider themselves neither! we'll get two sliders
17:48:04 <ehird> maleness and femaleness
17:48:07 <ehird> and they have to add up to 100
17:48:13 <ehird> from that, it randomly weights which to use
17:48:24 <ehird> isn't engineering wonderful
17:50:06 <ais523> one slider, obviously; the bit to one side is maleness, to the other side is femaleness
17:50:18 <ais523> that way, the shape of the UI enforces the add up to 100
17:51:02 <ehird> ais523: that's an interaction designer solution!
17:51:15 <ehird> actually the engineers would probably expose the two as text boxes
17:51:28 <ais523> nah, as query-string parameters
17:51:30 <ehird> ais523: I'm joking as to how the engineering mindset would solve the problem of "but what about people who aren't either?"
17:51:46 <oerjan> and you haven't even considered furries yet...
17:52:01 <ais523> oerjan: don't furries have a gender?
17:52:02 <ehird> no, furries don't think they're spiritually animals; that's otherkin
17:52:09 <ehird> and they still, presumably, have a gender
17:52:11 <oerjan> surely that depends on species
17:52:21 <ehird> I don't think there are ameoba otherkin
17:52:21 <ais523> anyway, I know that the Guild (which is responsible for the Guild Council I mention sometimes) recognises at least 7 genders
17:52:31 <ehird> ais523: err... which ones?
17:52:35 <ais523> they're rather strong on equal opportunities and political correctness
17:52:42 <ehird> please don't tell me they think transgender is a gender in itself
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17:53:12 <ais523> ehird: male, female, transsexual male, transsexual female, transgendered male, transgendered female, and indeterminate
17:53:28 <oerjan> we would not want to engender a transgression here
17:53:34 <ehird> Transgendered male; also known as "female". (Or "male", depending on which way aroudn it is).
17:54:10 <ehird> And transsexual male/female, also known as female/male (or, again, male/female).
17:54:27 <ehird> In conclusion, that list is identical to "male, female, indeterminate".
17:54:46 <ais523> ehird: they installed gender-neutral toilets, so as to be able to give a set of toilets that people in the five less common genders could go into without arguments
17:55:01 <ehird> BUT FOUR OF THE "LESS COMMON GENDERS" AREN'T GENDERS!
17:56:07 * oerjan just has to mention the gender neutral pronoun h'orsh'it he recently saw somewhere
17:58:07 <ehird> ais523: just to confirm, if someone is a transgendered male-to-female and then has a sex change operation, even though their legal documents say female your university still glasses them as transsexual male/female?
17:58:17 <ehird> weird definition of politically correct
17:58:30 <ais523> ehird: the distinction between transsexual and transgendered is whether there's been a sex-change operation or not, IIRC
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17:58:46 <ehird> ais523: I know that; read my line again
17:58:49 <ehird> that isn't what I asked
17:59:11 <ehird> someone who was a transgender male-to-female and then had a sex change operation is a transsexual, but their gender isn't "transsexual female", it's "female"
17:59:14 <ais523> ehird: well, there are biological differences...
17:59:26 <ehird> ais523: it's a list of genders
17:59:28 <ehird> not a list of sexes
17:59:36 <ais523> anyway, you don't want to go into how many sexual orientations they recognise, I don't actually know myself but it's a lot
17:59:59 <ehird> heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual? :P
18:00:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:00:11 <ehird> unless it's non-sex/gender orientations too
18:03:19 <Asztal> don't forget pansexual
18:03:49 <ehird> Asztal: but pansexuality is just a kind of bisexual imo
18:04:06 <ehird> also on wp, polysexual: "Polysexuality refers to people who are attracted to more than one gender or sex but do not wish to identify as bisexual because it implies that there are only two binary genders or sexes."
18:04:12 <ehird> that, for instance, is just a qualm with the name
18:04:15 <ehird> not a different position
18:04:19 <oerjan> i do not recommend sex with hot pans
18:04:21 <ehird> i think pansexuality is pretty similar
18:06:09 <ehird> When I said "use MathML when possible", I meant that.
18:06:23 <ehird> We clearly have very, very different definitions of "possible".
18:06:33 <ais523> ehird: it's probably to do with what's possible for MediaWiki
18:06:36 <ais523> which is probably not a lot
18:06:38 <ehird> ais523: "6 ! = 1 \times 2 \times 3 \times 4 \times 5 \times 6 = 720. \ "
18:06:54 <ehird> Yeah, totally impossible.
18:07:00 <ais523> oh, and there are actually semi-official guides telling you how to force things to render as images not HTML
18:07:06 <ais523> so that all the equations in an article look the same
18:07:17 <ehird> err, how do you purge again?
18:07:19 <ehird> ?action=purge does nothing
18:07:31 <pikhq> ais523: ... MediaWiki's math rendering is... TeX...
18:07:35 <ais523> it's ?action=purge, which if you're logged in appears to do nothing
18:07:44 <ais523> pikhq: no, it's some custom format that thinks it's TeX, IIRC
18:07:54 <ehird> I think they use real LaTeX nowadays
18:07:56 <ehird> ais523: OK, it must be a bug of some sort; "0! = 1 \ " renders as an image
18:08:00 <pikhq> ais523: ... They don't actually use TeX? MURDER.
18:08:10 <ehird> pikhq: TeX doesn't do pngs.
18:08:20 <ais523> it looks very like TeX, but it's less powerful, presumably to prevent people writing infinite loops into the code of the document
18:08:28 <ehird> pikhq: Do you, incidentally, use pdftex?
18:08:30 <ehird> That's not TeX, either.
18:09:07 <ehird> maybe MediaWiki knows that Safari doesn't do MathML
18:09:10 <pikhq> ehird: There's the TeX program, and there's the TeX language.
18:09:13 <ehird> an overly clever definition of "possible"
18:09:20 <oerjan> ehird: adding spacing commands like "\ " is the recommended way of forcing non-html iirc
18:09:36 <ais523> oerjan: IIRC, you use negative-width spaces, to really force non-HTML
18:09:43 <ais523> and people put that in the articles
18:09:49 <ais523> so all the equations look the same
18:09:53 <ais523> thus defeating the point of the preference
18:11:11 * ehird removes \ in a user space copy
18:12:21 <ehird> The page "User:Ehird/sandbox" (links | delete) has been moved to "User:Ehird/Sandbox" (edit | links | revert | log)
18:12:58 <ehird> ais523: indeed, removing "\ " fixes it
18:13:26 <ais523> does MathML have a code for "space added specifically to stop this rendering as anything but an image", I wonder?
18:14:14 <ehird> grr, there should be a way to delete your own user subpages
18:14:30 <ehird> I now have a useless vector.css link being added to every page
18:14:36 <ais523> ehird: put {{db-user}} on them
18:14:46 <ais523> and an admin will delete it pretty quickly, those are really noncontroversial
18:14:54 <pikhq> Fuck violations of the law of least surprise.
18:14:57 <ehird> should be automatic, grumble
18:15:02 <ais523> ehird: that would be abusable
18:15:05 <ehird> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ehird/vector.css
18:15:10 <ais523> rename a popular article into your userspace, then delete it...
18:15:25 <ehird> also, so don't allow renaming a popular article into your userspace
18:15:34 <oerjan> pikhq: i bet that'll surprise them
18:15:35 <ehird> the work required to put it back is the same as undeleting
18:15:48 <ais523> what if you created it in the first place, and it came from your userspace?
18:15:51 <ehird> oerjan: actually, I find I still gullibly trust computers to work as I expect
18:16:08 <ehird> ais523: ugh, i don't care; but templates aren't being expanded
18:16:09 <ais523> ehird: it's in CAT:SD anyway
18:16:10 <ehird> could you delete it?
18:16:14 <oerjan> it's the fluoride in the water
18:16:22 <ais523> just the category doesn't render on the page
18:17:00 * ehird considers redesigning vector in userspace and then hax0ring wikipedia to set it for everyone
18:20:56 <pikhq> I find it somewhat perverse that water flouridisation is not common in Colorado Springs...
18:21:09 <ehird> Don'tcha now they can control your mind through that stuff.
18:21:15 <pikhq> (... water flouridisation was discovered there, because natural water sources there have flouride.)
18:21:41 <ehird> pikhq: Dude, do you know what that means?
18:21:45 <ehird> GOD is controlling our minds.
18:21:52 <oerjan> well, why would they add it if it occurs naturally, duh
18:22:00 <ehird> oerjan: he was joking
18:22:02 <pikhq> oerjan: They take it *out*.
18:22:44 <pikhq> ehird: They have to take some of it out, though; the amount of flouride in the water supply mottles the teeth.
18:22:54 <pikhq> ... They just take *all* of it out.
18:23:14 <ais523> I thought it was pregnant women who were hurt most by overflouridation
18:23:39 <ais523> I know because there was a row about it here in the UK a couple of weeks ago, a water company was putting far too much flouride in and ignoring their own warning mechanisms
18:25:10 <pikhq> ais523: It deforms the bones of babies.
18:25:19 <pikhq> And mottles the teeth of all.
18:25:27 <ehird> right, that's it; I'm mocking up a design of Wikipedia that doesn't involve information clutter, showing things you don't need, unexcellent typo… you know, negating this list made it awkward.
18:25:33 <ehird> pikhq: sounds awesome
18:26:00 <pikhq> Overflouridisation is t3h suck.
18:26:14 <ais523> ehird: you'll find that more or less every link on a typical Wikipedia page is either needed by someone, or the WMF insist on it
18:26:26 <ehird> ais523: not the pages, the chrome
18:26:34 <ehird> and besides, I can hide the ones not needed at the moment
18:26:38 <ais523> I'm talking about things like the links around the edges
18:26:40 <ehird> and nobody can stop me using it as a user CSS
18:26:55 <ehird> ais523: right, there's absolutely no need to have them like that at all, I can assure you
18:27:08 <ehird> (wow the pdf version thing is slow)
18:27:16 <ehird> (it's at 1% for a tiny article)
18:27:22 <ais523> well, certainly as an admin, being able to hit things like user contribs, block, etc, in 1 click is highly useful
18:27:33 <ehird> oh, it went from 1% to 100%
18:27:38 <ehird> ais523: oh, absolutely
18:27:42 <ais523> number of clicks is important in case you're doing it in something like 50 tabs in parallel, a ribbon wouldn't really work for that
18:27:47 <ehird> i'm not a very good designer but i'm not an idiot
18:28:00 <ehird> besides, admins do obviously have different needs than users
18:28:35 <ais523> nah, because non-admins do adminny work too
18:28:42 <ais523> at least, they're supposed to
18:28:50 <ehird> they don't block people
18:29:05 <ais523> mass reports to AIV have happened in the past
18:29:18 <ais523> although if it gets too over-the-top, ANI is generally a better choice
18:30:05 <ehird> I'm mainly interested in something I can read without wanting to gnaw my eyes out, and secondarily something I can do brief editing and administrivia to quite easily
18:30:31 <ehird> maybe there could be a "I'm going to stay in the house for a few months editing" button :P
18:30:36 <ehird> that enables monobook
18:31:04 <ehird> "I hate it when errors on the main page got reported in the wrong place and they got fixed pretty quickly, then my properly placed error reports on WP:ERRORS get ignored."
18:31:09 <ehird> do you think they realise?
18:31:41 <ehird> realise that people have used the main page since the stone age and will do so forever? and that thus they have to check both places, thus slowing them down?
18:31:53 <ehird> it's almost enough to make a man nominate WP:ERRORS for deletion
18:32:03 <Pthing> user contributions is a useful function
18:32:10 <ais523> ehird: it's to do with watchlisting
18:32:18 <ais523> Talk:Main Page tends to be rather fastmoving
18:32:20 <Pthing> if somebody makes one stupid error, if you see their user contributions, they usually make lots of them
18:32:23 <Pthing> and you can laugh at them
18:32:27 <ais523> so if you report an error there, an innocuous change might be next there
18:32:28 <ehird> ais523: but they check it anyway to complain at them!
18:32:31 <ais523> and hide the watchlist entry
18:32:40 <ehird> so they're already doing that hard work
18:32:53 <ais523> ehird: it'll be slower, manually checking as opposed to just having a watchlist entry
18:33:09 <ehird> ais523: I'd be fine if Talk:Main Page had a subsection called Errors, with a link "add one" that edits the included template page
18:33:20 <ehird> oh no, my fans just spinned up
18:33:25 <ais523> or have people changed their minds again?
18:33:28 <ehird> ais523: it does, but it's in the header
18:33:31 <ehird> and it doesn't include the error page
18:33:48 <ehird> people who would report it in talk:main page don't know about the + button, but they DO ignore headers and warnings like everyone else
18:33:57 <ehird> if it looked like a subsection with a big "Add one" link, it'd be used
18:34:53 <ehird> "Wikipedia is a free content encyclopedia written by a global community of volunteers. Sometimes, false information is added to Wikipedia. Do not trust information in Wikipedia - use additional references"
18:34:54 <ehird> — Mobile Wikipedia
18:34:59 <ehird> they should replace Wikipedia's disclaimer with that
18:35:41 <ais523> the WMF would go crazy
18:35:47 <ais523> but then, they do anyway
18:36:20 <ehird> it's funny that encyclopedia dramatica is run more smoothly and with less drama than wikipedia
18:37:54 <ehird> hmm, [[Wikipedia]] isn't an FA
18:40:21 * ehird redesigns around [[Barack Obama]]
18:40:38 <ehird> under the assumption that it's a relatively normal article and is obviously well-maintained
18:40:44 <ehird> although it's unusually long...
18:41:38 <pikhq> ehird: The whole cult-of-personality thing.
18:41:50 <ehird> pikhq: what in particular?
18:42:24 <pikhq> ehird: ... There's quite a few people who seem to think that Obama is the second coming or something.
18:42:28 <ehird> Half of that article is probably devoted to rebutting the birthers
18:42:51 <ehird> for a more objective source
18:42:52 <ehird> http://conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama
18:42:55 <Pthing> where are thse people, pikhq
18:43:06 <Pthing> it seems like a good republican talking point
18:43:07 <ehird> "allegedly[1][2][3][4][5] born in Honolulu"
18:43:22 <ehird> haha wow Obamunism xD
18:43:30 <Pthing> but the only people i saw get really knicker-wetting joyful over Obama was during the election
18:43:42 <Pthing> and huge parts of that were "hooray bush is gone forever"
18:44:59 <ehird> see, what if Palin is actually Bush
18:44:59 <pikhq> Pthing: It has at least cooled off, yes.
18:45:17 <pikhq> It was horrid during the election. Now, it's at least a few silly people.
18:45:32 <Pthing> whereas whole scads of the Right must have had a terrible buttock rash for all eight years
18:45:36 <pikhq> What scares the shit out of me is the Palin followers.
18:46:14 <Pthing> It surprised me just how rapidly those people went from EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU'VE GOT TO RESPECT THE PRESIDENT to HE'S NOT A REAL PRESIDENT, ALL AMERICANS DISSENT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
18:46:25 <Pthing> I wasn't politically aware when Clinton was in
18:46:36 <Pthing> so all along I thought they actually *believed* that
18:46:38 <pikhq> Are you familiar with doublethink?
18:46:47 <Pthing> sure, I felt stupid when it happened
18:47:07 <Pthing> but really it was amazing how rapid the turnabout was
18:47:23 <pikhq> Republicans have a very simple belief system: the corporations are right.
18:47:34 <ehird> one day was "Well if the President wants to wiretap and uh and kill some terrists and stuff then you have to accept it because WE THE PEOPLE ELECTED HIM"
18:47:35 <pikhq> What's good for the people screwing us is good for us.
18:47:40 <Pthing> It's entirely accurate, but it's unfair.
18:47:45 <ehird> "Maybe if someone uh ASSASSINATED him that'd be okayyyy?"
18:47:48 <Pthing> It's accurate because that's how it's been set up
18:47:55 <ehird> pikhq: ais523 came up with a wonderful way to understand republicans
18:47:56 <Pthing> but the manifestation is more complicated than that
18:48:12 <ehird> if you take it as axiomatic that bad things happen to people because they deserve it, the republican platform makes perfect sense
18:48:12 <pikhq> Pthing: Obviously. Even simple things are complex.
18:48:15 <ehird> and the democrats are insane
18:48:43 <pikhq> ehird: Except that they claim that that axiom is from the Bible.
18:49:03 <ehird> and as we all know, the bible is axiomatic because it says so!
18:49:08 <pikhq> There's very few things that are axiomatic in the Bible. ;)
18:49:25 <ehird> i like the part where jesus pretty much revokes everything
18:49:39 <ehird> "Hmm... don't you think these rules are a bit stringent on the masses? Will they BUY this stuff?"
18:49:44 <ehird> "...you're right."
18:49:51 <ehird> "But we can't just GET RID of it all! That's our BACKSTORY!"
18:49:55 <pikhq> "Fuck that shit. Be good to each other.
18:50:00 <ehird> "Well... just put some sort of note about all the stuff before it being false, kay?"
18:50:05 <ehird> *THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER*
18:50:13 <oerjan> ehird: and there is also the part where he claims he isn't changing a single letter of anything
18:50:17 <ehird> "Fags will burn in hell!"
18:50:29 <ehird> oerjan: the part about clams was allegory, man
18:50:46 <pikhq> oerjan: He claims rather that the law was in fact intended to end. He's not changing it, he's the succcessor to it.
18:51:01 <ehird> pikhq: couldn't god just have made humans not stupid fuckers at the start and given them the perfect law?
18:51:17 <Pthing> he could, but we didn't want it
18:51:36 <Pthing> to within certain tolerances
18:51:48 <ehird> he's fuckin' omnipotent, what's his problem
18:51:54 <Pthing> his problem is he was lonely
18:51:55 <ehird> he did fine with the rest of the universe
18:52:04 <Pthing> and wanted to create something that could love him back
18:52:12 <ehird> Pthing: but he could just change metareality so he wasn't lonely!
18:52:20 <Pthing> he'd have known the difference
18:52:28 <oerjan> but he never metareality he liked!
18:52:34 <ehird> he wouldn't simulate having someone who loves him
18:52:43 <ehird> he'd just make it so that the concept of "god is lonely" is objectively false
18:52:54 <Pthing> god can't trick himself like that
18:52:55 <ehird> the man's smart enough to create a universe.
18:53:02 <Pthing> that kind of logic is for created things
18:53:14 <ehird> Pthing: congrats, you just reminded me why I hate arguing with religious people
18:53:21 <ehird> i'm going to go put my head in a blender now
18:53:35 <Pthing> well man it's not a hard idea, and it even works here
18:54:05 <ehird> but that was just the pre-starter argument!
18:54:05 <Pthing> you can put it this way, he's omniscient, so he'll know he fucked with his own mind
18:54:18 <ehird> it'd be about five years until i got to the main course
18:54:36 <ehird> Pthing: the universe is just fucking with his own reality.
18:55:30 <pikhq> ... THEY ACTUALLY THINK WEATHER UNDERGROUND IS A TERRORIST GROUP.
18:55:35 <pikhq> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
18:55:40 <Pthing> "universe" and "reality" are both words to describe Creation
18:56:25 <ehird> pikhq: I wouldn't say terrorist, but "the group conducted a campaign of bombings through the mid-1970s, including aiding the jailbreak and escape of Timothy Leary"
18:56:43 <ehird> In 1970 the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, under the name "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO). The bombing attacks mostly targeted government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by evacuation warnings, along with communiqués identifying the particular matter that the attack was intended to protest. For the bombing of the United States Capitol on March 1, 1971, they issued a commun
18:56:57 <ehird> iqué saying it was "in protest of the US invasion of Laos." For the bombing of The Pentagon on May 19, 1972, they stated it was "in retaliation for the US bombing raid in Hanoi." For the January 29, 1975 bombing of the United States Department of State Building, they stated it was "in response to escalation in Vietnam."[5]
18:57:12 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so they actually have justification for the term.
18:57:23 <ehird> Yeah; that, at least, is not one of their crazier statements.
18:57:24 <pikhq> In other words, not complete craziness, just hyperbole.
18:58:11 <pikhq> I find it amusing that they think is a radical, communist liberal.
18:58:27 <pikhq> ... How many communists do corporate welfare, exactly?
18:59:19 <ehird> You missed a wordy word
19:00:21 <pikhq> And they think that his policies will lead to a second Great Depression.
19:00:32 <pikhq> What, like... Now?
19:00:37 <pikhq> Before he got in office?
19:01:05 <pikhq> And... They think he's muslim.
19:01:13 <pikhq> Good Lord, people.
19:01:58 <pikhq> And they think he's actually mind controlling people.
19:02:10 <pikhq> WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MOTHERFUCKING CRAZY.
19:02:17 <pikhq> THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS.
19:02:22 <ehird> and BobTHJ believes a good portion of all this!
19:03:07 <ehird> "Obama tries to downplay his Islamic background by claiming that his Kenyan Muslim father was a "confirmed atheist" before Obama was born, but in fact less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, agnostics, or non-religious."
19:03:11 <ehird> As we all know, 1%s don't exist.
19:03:23 <pikhq> It is significantly more plausible to claim that there are aliens coming down to earth on a regular basis.
19:03:32 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:03:37 <ais523> there are aliens coming into the country on a regular basis, at least
19:03:43 <ais523> why does everyone forget what "alien" actually means...
19:03:45 <pikhq> ais523: From outer space.
19:04:05 <ehird> ais523: Die, prescriptivist!
19:04:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription
19:04:30 <oerjan> Mexico is also a space
19:04:32 <ehird> Alien doesn't mean that,
19:04:37 <ehird> because people don't use alien to mean that, in general.
19:04:39 <oerjan> and it's outside the US
19:04:42 <ehird> (unless the context is obviously immigration)
19:05:00 <pikhq> Anyways. At least claims regarding aliens sometimes are regarding unexplained situations.
19:05:04 <oerjan> oklopol: no you're not
19:05:21 <pikhq> It's at least possible to say "We don't know WTF that is, it might be aliens."
19:05:46 <pikhq> But... Obama being Muslim, and from Kenya? There is a huge amount of evidence against it.
19:06:12 <ehird> they're just scared racist shits
19:06:14 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, right. They hates logic.
19:06:24 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm totally a prescriptivist
19:06:26 <ehird> they can't attack his policies convincingly, so they attack him
19:06:28 <pikhq> They refuse to believe that they are wrong.
19:07:03 <ehird> [[Obama alleged Saddam "has developed chemical and biological weapons" but was willing to condone the most hideous use of torture[124] from a man who "butchers his own people."]]
19:07:15 <ehird> Of course, if Saddam wants to waterboard, that's just fine, now, isn't it?
19:07:22 <pikhq> Because bullshit is easier to argue against than reality.
19:08:10 <oklopol> oerjan: this is where you say "incredibly not"
19:08:51 <pikhq> ehird: Anyways. If these idiots were European, they would be voting for the Nazis.
19:09:02 <pikhq> The crazies are everywhere.
19:09:08 <ehird> It's called the BNP.
19:09:18 <pikhq> ehird: ... Yes, that was my point.
19:09:20 <oklopol> and i'm leaving now, so i win
19:09:51 <oerjan> oklopol: that's just what you are saying
19:10:04 <ehird> You know what's funny? Britain is not that much more left-wing than the US, and yet even our right-wing party fully supports universal healthcare and even a lot of privacy.
19:10:10 <ehird> The US is just insane.
19:10:44 <ehird> Anyway, Conservapedia's Atheism article used to start with a picture of Hitler.
19:10:50 <ehird> There's no point even trying to understand or rebut them.
19:11:38 <pikhq> ehird: ... Wasn't Hitler nominally Christian?
19:11:46 <ehird> More than nominally.
19:11:54 <oerjan> yay, now it has Marquis de Sade
19:11:57 <ehird> Unless you ask "conservatives".
19:12:51 <oerjan> pikhq: "hitler was not an atheist / was a christian" articles kept showing up on reddit all the time
19:13:24 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
19:13:25 <oerjan> probably still there in /atheism which is no longer on the main page (last i looked)
19:13:28 <ehird> the fun part of /r/atheism is that it only makes any sense if you believe conservative christians are reading it
19:14:08 <oerjan> ehird: ah so you think it's mostly crap too?
19:14:39 <GregorR-L> I don't even remember what site this /r/foo stuff refers to :P
19:15:00 <ehird> the top two links in /r/atheism right now,
19:15:04 <ais523> interesting fact: Hitler was commonly believed to be male
19:15:07 <oerjan> GregorR-L: was mentioned the line before you entered
19:15:09 <ehird> "My new hobby. Leaving atheism themed books on display model ebook readers. This one is at Target." // real productive! have you got a life yet?
19:15:17 <ehird> "To all those who post the repetitive "This is a circle jerk..." to /a/atheism. Getting in the middle of a circle jerk and opening your mouth actually makes it "Bukkake"."
19:15:23 <ehird> ZINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
19:15:34 <ehird> you totally rebutted that guy, now get back to jerking everyone else off.
19:15:39 <ehird> in conclusion, something
19:15:40 <pikhq> ehird: That... Is a truely dumb sub-reddit.
19:15:47 <ehird> Your spelling is truely dumb.
19:15:50 <oerjan> ehird: ah yes there was a great comment quote yesterday, let me see if i can find it
19:16:08 <ehird> Anyway, a subreddit for atheism isn't an inherently bad idea; it's just that this incarnation is worthless.
19:16:27 <ehird> ais523: i'm pretty sure hitler was male :P
19:16:36 <ais523> ehird: see what I mean?
19:16:46 <ehird> ais523: are you metatrolling :D
19:16:52 <pikhq> GregorR-L: We got here from discussing Conservapedia's article on Obama.
19:16:52 <ehird> I never metatroll I didn't like/
19:17:12 <pikhq> SECRET MUSLIM COMMUNIST KENYAN ZOMG KILLING AMERICA!
19:17:13 <GregorR-L> But he's not an atheist, he's a muslim! :P
19:17:39 <GregorR-L> Have they added any new "Muslim" "evidence" since last I checked?
19:18:09 <ehird> Hey, maybe Conservapedia is part of Obama's socialist eugenics program.
19:18:16 <ais523> anyway, I retroactively invoke Godwin's Law on someone or other, I don't particularly care who
19:18:21 <ais523> all the conversation since then never happened
19:18:29 <ehird> Anyone who makes a non-satiric edit to Conservapedia won't be allowed to breed when the program comes into place.
19:18:36 <ehird> And their existing babies will be harvested for food.
19:18:46 <pikhq> ais523: Probably about when we claimed that they would be voting for Nazis if they were in Europe.
19:18:55 <ais523> don't Conservapedia claim that they'll sue vandals?
19:19:02 <ehird> ais523: also, anyone who swears
19:19:06 <ehird> http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Commandments
19:19:12 <ehird> "Everything you post must be true"
19:19:17 <ais523> I don't even want to visit that link, the URL is scary enough
19:19:19 <ehird> "must be family-friendly, clean, concise, and without gossip or foul language"
19:19:22 <oerjan> found it: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/98sg3/please_stop_spamming_the_main_reddit_with_your/c0bu3p4
19:19:24 <ehird> "When referencing dates based on the approximate birth of Jesus, give appropriate credit for the basis of the date (B.C. or A.D.). "BCE" and "CE" are unacceptable substitutes because they deny the historical basis. See CE."
19:19:26 <pikhq> ... A plausible claim, when you look at the nationalist parties (that are also ZOMG SOCIALISTS, if US opinions are to be believed)
19:19:33 <ehird> Minors under 16 years old use this site. Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor.
19:19:46 <ehird> the rest are rather boring apart from
19:19:51 <ehird> "Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry."
19:19:52 <ais523> wait, how do they know who your employer is?
19:20:04 <pikhq> ehird: Without gossip? I'm afraid to make an edit following that, I would have to replace the articles with Wikipedia.
19:20:05 <ehird> ais523: Professional stalkers!
19:20:16 <ais523> also, haven't they just made an unfulfilable promise if you vandalise it when unemployed?
19:20:22 <ehird> pikhq: also true, also without personal opinion
19:20:32 <ehird> ais523: Unemployed people have no money.
19:20:36 <ehird> Their parents kick them out as soon as they can get a job.
19:20:40 <ehird> So, they don't have internet.
19:20:40 <pikhq> ehird: Like I said, Wikipedia.
19:20:46 <pikhq> Or maybe selections of Uncyclopedia.
19:20:48 <ehird> Only True Americans who work can access Conservapedia, and they have jobs.
19:21:34 <ehird> wikipedia needs a level above featured articles
19:21:39 <ehird> like Super Featured Articles, there's only 10 at once
19:25:15 <ais523> there's the main page featured article
19:26:30 <ehird> ais523: that's not a particularly good featured article, though
19:26:55 <ais523> not random, there's a featured article director who plans the featured articles on each day ages in advance
19:27:21 <ehird> ais523: Raul has said he just picks them randomly iirc
19:27:38 <ais523> not always, they tend to be on appropriate days
19:27:45 <ais523> and some are left out due to being inappropriate for the main page
19:27:46 <ehird> that's just sometimes, though
19:28:01 <ehird> anyway, point is, they're not picked for being really good FAs
19:29:22 * oerjan checks on a hunch whether "pornography" is a featured article. but alas.
19:36:55 <ehird> "I have over $100,000 of software in my saddlebags. We’re sending a release to about twelve customers. […] I reach the counter with a few minutes to spare, and off the packages go. Declared worth, about ten bucks each; it’s just duplicated disks and photocopied manuals after all."
19:37:05 <ehird> Never before has someone so succinctly make a point they weren't trying to.
19:37:16 <ehird> *made a point, maybe.
19:38:39 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃").
19:39:09 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/98zwt/hypothetical_situation_if_someone_were_walking/ ← $0 due to the inevitable legal results being something in the vicinity of $infinity
19:40:19 <ehird> http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/ amazing
19:42:50 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:42:58 <ehird> pikhq_: http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/
19:43:23 <pikhq_> *Thank* you, oh glorious Internet, for dropping connections at the drop of a hat.
19:43:54 <ehird> omg, it has videos too
19:43:58 <ehird> I will never sleep again
19:45:55 * ehird tries to make a rotating checkerboard
19:46:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out).
19:47:27 <bsmntbombdood> how would you transmit text to a human at 1000 7-bit characters per minute?
19:47:53 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ethernet cable :P
19:48:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well let's say a word is five letters
19:48:31 <ehird> i'm sure you could learn to hear at 200wpm
19:49:03 <ehird> make up a language, obviously
19:49:24 <bsmntbombdood> do you think you could understand chorded electrical shocks?
19:49:33 <ehird> no, I'd be too busy screaming
19:51:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:51:19 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:53:44 <ehird> human's the bottleneck there
19:54:03 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: well my knowledge has a bit of a blind spot there
20:01:05 <oklopol> so 116 b/s, might be close to human peak listening speed
20:02:38 <ehird> oklopol: 116 bytes a second?
20:02:42 <ehird> how can we possibly listen that fast
20:02:54 <ehird> oklopol: so 116 b/s,
20:03:15 <oklopol> well yes, that's the one place where you need to care about caps
20:04:29 <oerjan> actually there are others, such as m vs. M prefix
20:05:00 <oklopol> oerjan: much less confusing though, also for bits, not at all so
20:06:22 <oklopol> anyway i'd say the actual used information content per english character is about two bits, by that random estimate you'd need about 20 words per second
20:06:38 <oklopol> which contains another random estimate of 5 characters per wordds
20:07:08 <ehird> a letter is 5 bits isn't it
20:07:25 <oklopol> that doesn't really mean much
20:07:44 <oklopol> sdhgjhaerw takes about an hour to explain, abababababa takes about a second to say
20:08:02 <oerjan> ehird: compressed size
20:08:25 <Deewiant> sdhgjhaerw is only about two syllables, much quicker to say than abababababa
20:08:35 <ehird> Deewiant: crazy finns
20:09:02 <Deewiant> Not really, I just think "sdhgjh" is quite compressible
20:09:16 <oerjan> ehird: that would be crazy georgians, i don't think finns could pronounce that
20:09:16 <oklopol> yeah the estimate is based on current best compression
20:09:40 <oklopol> but i've heard 1 bit per character is how much a human needs, no idea what that's based on
20:10:55 <oerjan> oklopol: i've heard that too.
20:12:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:12:25 <ehird> ummmmmm so actually everything sucks, did you heard
20:12:57 <oerjan> ah there are unit differences too
20:13:05 <oerjan> s = second, S = siemens
20:15:07 <oerjan> ehird: that is a matter of some gravity
20:15:18 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuck youuuuuuuuuu oerjan
20:15:45 <oerjan> what, did i cause an accident?
20:16:58 <ehird> http://fragsworth.com/video_functions/781/
20:35:07 -!- pikhq has joined.
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20:53:15 <Warrigal_> bsmntbombdood: attach things to their fingers that move them as if they were typing the text.
20:53:31 <ehird> that only gets you 100wpm
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21:13:56 <bsmntbombdood> it would be nice if it was passive and hard to see
21:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> you know, like electrodes across your belly or something
21:14:43 <ehird> what exactly are you doing
21:15:25 <ehird> cool, you can print a book on the fly from an arbitrary set of wikipedia pages; with greyscale images
21:15:28 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/PediaPress_Books_-_interior_2.jpg
21:27:56 <Warrigal_> So, what's the purpose of this, again?
21:29:20 <Warrigal_> oklopol: I think that's based on people's ability to predict the next letter of a sentence, given a dictionary.
21:30:06 <GregorR-L> ehird: That's pretty cool actually ...
21:40:42 -!- ehird has quit.
21:41:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("The purpose of a purple porpoise").
22:08:40 -!- ehird has joined.
22:08:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: it is cool!
22:09:29 <ehird> I wonder how many books it'd take to get all of articlespace
22:09:49 <ehird> How are book prices calculated?
22:09:49 <ehird> The cost of a book depends on the number of pages contained in addition to a base fee.
22:09:57 <ehird> A single book has a maximum size of approximately 800 pages. If a larger book is ordered, it is automatically split up into multiple volumes.
22:10:29 <ehird> so about 2500 books
22:10:32 <ehird> assuming 1 page/article
22:10:40 <ehird> which knowing how large some articles are and how short others are, seems fair
22:11:26 <ehird> still, less than $55 for 800 pages
22:11:49 <ehird> much less it seems, 819 = $37.76
22:12:00 <ehird> lol http://pediapress.com/books/show/bdsm/
22:16:16 <ehird> http://pediapress.com/books/show/nothing/
22:16:23 <ehird> A good use of $21.92 + shipping
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22:26:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
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22:31:07 <ehird> Who brought you from #haskell? :-P
22:31:12 <ehird> pikhq, I suspect you.
22:31:38 <timmcd> Just filtered the freenode.net channels for one pertaining to esoteric languages.
22:31:41 <ehird> There are too many combined Haskell/esolang lovers :P
22:31:49 <ehird> timmcd: I'm surprised you could tell we're about esolangs with the topic
22:32:01 <ehird> We're http://esolangs.org/
22:34:04 -!- pikhq__ has joined.
22:34:08 <timmcd> ehird / anyone else: http://etherpad.com/esolangideas
22:34:12 <ehird> pikhq__: fix your damn net
22:34:13 <timmcd> Think that looks allright?
22:34:16 <ehird> timmcd: Ooooh you're that guy
22:34:24 <ehird> I don't associate new names for a few days
22:34:27 <timmcd> Idk if that's good or bad, ehird...
22:34:34 <ehird> I just saw you in the logs :P
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22:34:53 <timmcd> I want as much feedback as I can get ;)
22:37:40 <ehird> timmcd: It looks basically like assembly with an odd syntax and convenient types/IO, which is better than most people's first language :)
22:39:32 <ehird> Hey, we can't go praising people's first languages, what with how many we get on the wiki.
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22:40:31 <ehird> pikhq: I'll buy you an internet pipe.
22:41:04 <pikhq> ehird: No point. I'll have real Internets in a couple weeks.
22:41:14 <ehird> I can't wait that long.
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23:43:43 <ehird> so let's try to not try for three lines after this
23:48:54 <ehird> ok let's try a little more than that
23:51:35 <ehird> i'm very pleased with this moderate amount of trying
23:52:51 <ehird> [X] Find out if we're marginally funny in any way
23:52:51 <ehird> [ ] Make a bot that lets us turn this into comics in a line
23:52:51 <ehird> [ ] Attain internet infamy
23:52:59 <ehird> it worked for jerkcity
23:58:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: as i said, it worked for jerkcity. among the various things that jerkcity lacks lies "jokes"
23:58:21 <mycroftiv> i dont know what jerkcity is, i need that part of the joke explained
23:58:44 <ehird> http://www.jerkcity.com/
23:58:57 <ehird> the only microsoft comic chat-created IRC comic that's been running since 1998.
23:59:02 <ehird> and that features dongs.
23:59:10 <ehird> (at least I hope there aren't others)