00:01:18 <FreeFull> I like question marks for predicates better
00:01:58 <FreeFull> Phantom__Hoover: So it determines if something is a fox?
00:08:10 <oerjan> google is trying hard not to translate that either backwards or forwards
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00:33:08 <Sgeo> "Target player loses the game"
00:33:20 <Sgeo> Seems like it could be fun to redirect that targetting, there are cards that can do that, right?
00:33:50 <Sgeo> "This card is both funny, stupid, lame and awesome all rolled into one!"
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01:12:59 <kmc> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/v3.12/arch/sparc/lib/checksum_32.S#L332-L335
01:14:49 <Bike> 8 byte aligned, kick ass
01:17:38 <Taneb> Would a 4-dimensional race discover the wire-crossing problem
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01:22:50 <zzo38> Taneb: Possibly, but not necessarily with the same kind of application.
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02:11:58 <ion> :-D http://www.theonion.com/articles/187-images-which-if-rapidly-clicked-through-will-c,34950/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
02:12:45 <kmc> utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
02:14:36 <Sgeo> I don't think that's The Onion's doing
02:14:50 <Sgeo> Maybe ion has some sort of anti-utm extension?
02:14:51 <ion> It had some more boring tracking data but i fixed it.
02:15:03 * Sgeo would be too lazy to fix the tracking data
02:15:20 <Sgeo> If I feel like removing it, I usually just delete it
02:15:32 <Sgeo> But linking the tracking data messes up the tracking anyway, doesn't it?
02:15:50 <shachaf> when i feel like removing it, i usually just remove it
02:16:20 <ion> sgeo: Well, it still tells them the source ended up spreading the link.
02:16:32 <ion> indirectly
02:20:28 <zzo38> ion: If they implemented that part.
02:20:58 <ion> I mean the source in utm_ parameters.
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02:22:19 <zzo38> Still, maybe the implementation is incomplete.
02:23:28 <zzo38> I don't like "Target player loses the game" but you can make up variants, such as "When any player has no cards in his hand he loses the game", or "Whoever's life total exceeds one million loses the game", etc.
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02:25:57 <shachaf> i don't think the phrase "his hand" would appear on any card
02:26:59 <zzo38> Probably you are correct it might say "his or her hand", or it will be reworded in an entirely different way instead.
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02:36:38 <kmc> yes I think singular "they" or rewording to avoid the pronoun is much better than "his or her", generally
02:36:44 <Sgeo> "her or his hand"
02:36:55 <Sgeo> "his hand" would then appear on a card
02:37:02 <kmc> part of why I like singular "they" is that it's good for trolling sphexish prescriptivists
02:37:16 <zzo38> I also use singular "they" sometimes
02:37:19 <kmc> sometimes you can even get them to accidentally use singular "they" while they're explaining why singular "they" is such an abomination
02:37:30 <Sgeo> I usually use Spivak pronouns
02:37:36 <Sgeo> Got the habit from Agora
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02:38:26 <kmc> I've met people who prefer Spivak pronouns and I've met people who prefer "it" but none of them actively object to singular "they"
02:39:05 <Sgeo> I object to "ey". I'm a traditionalist, "e" is much better.
02:39:16 <Sgeo> (Even though ey makes more sense)
02:39:23 <kmc> I don't know anyone who actively objects to singular "they", but they must exist
02:39:32 <kmc> probably the same people who get really upset if you say "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"
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02:40:53 <kmc> I mean, other than the grammar prescriptivists
02:42:12 <Sgeo> I've seen the term eval-quote somewhere. I think I like it
02:42:40 <Sgeo> To describe Tcl and Rebol and perhaps lisps where you'd write (if (> 2 1) '(print "a") '(print "b"))
02:42:46 <Sgeo> Or something conceptually similar
02:43:34 <kmc> would you also include Kernel in that category
02:43:39 <kmc> with the quotation syntactically implicit
02:43:57 <Sgeo> I think I wouldn't, I could have sworn I saw the term used to contrast against kernel
02:44:01 <zzo38> I tried some thing to figure out how UTF-8 is implemented in SQLite, and I think it is OK. It is generalized enough to not be specific to Unicode (as long as you don't try to convert to/from UTF-16), and functions that convert uppercase/lowercase/etc work on ASCII characters only, so it work OK. According to my experiment it treats any 0xC0...0xFF followed by any sequence of 0x80...0xBF as a single character, which is what I want.
02:44:34 <zzo38> (Although I would have simplified it a bit by just ignoring 0x80...0xBF in the count regardless, but the other way works too.)
02:45:35 <Sgeo> Oh, this is where I got it from
02:45:35 <Sgeo> http://fexpr.blogspot.com/2013/07/explicit-evaluation.html
02:46:05 <Sgeo> Wand credited Albert Meyer for noting the trivialization effect. Meyer, though, noted that quote-eval (as opposed to fexprs) need not cause trivialization. (Meyer made this supplementary observation at least as early as 1986; see here, puzzle 3.)
02:46:32 <Sgeo> But the fexprs mentioned might not be Kernel fexprs, I guess? I didn't read the whole thing thoroughly
02:49:56 <Sgeo> kmc: did you see my post?
02:50:48 <kmc> "trivialization" refers to the equational theory?
02:53:03 <Sgeo> I meant my post on the klisp group
02:53:10 <kmc> yeah I saw it
02:57:43 <Sgeo> I wonder if there are any quote-eval languages as sanely designed as Kernel
02:57:52 <Sgeo> Don't really consider Rebol sanely designed
02:58:51 <zzo38> What is quote-eval languages?
03:01:38 <Sgeo> zzo38: no special forms, instead, you pass around blocks of code to functions that can then choose to interpret those blocks however they wish. Those blocks are not functions/closures, instead, they contain raw code
03:01:48 <Sgeo> Well, I guess there can be special forms
03:01:57 <Sgeo> And this is more my interpretation of the concept
03:02:12 <Sgeo> I don't know anything about dc to be able to say
03:05:00 <Sgeo> "Macros are then implemented by allowing registers and stack entries to be strings as well as numbers. A string can be printed, but it can also be executed (i.e. processed as a sequence of dc commands). So for instance we can store a macro to add one and then multiply by 2 into register m:"
03:05:19 <Sgeo> Is this the primary means of using conditionals and loops etc.?
03:05:23 <Sgeo> If so, I would say dc counts
03:05:46 <zzo38> And the meaning of the commands can even change if the input base changes.
03:07:17 <Sgeo> Anyways, I have another complaint about Kernel
03:09:57 <zzo38> What other complaint?
03:12:19 <Sgeo> Writing higher-order functions may be more difficult than it should be, due to a combination of factors, some of which are not fundamental to Kernel's central concept, some of which might be
03:12:56 <Sgeo> I'd say my other complaint is worse
03:17:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: does Underload count hth
03:18:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is the other one I thought of other than dc.
03:18:51 <zzo38> I would think it must count too
03:18:55 <oerjan> it seems to me that having both eval-quote and variable bindings would wreak havoc with lexical scoping, unless you reintroduce some way of capturing the environment of the caller, and isn't that what kernel does.
03:20:28 <oerjan> although dynamic binding would work. in fact i think Logo works this way, and may be quote-eval.
03:21:21 <Sgeo> oerjan: what Rebol does, which isn't perfect but is interesting, is have constructs that introduce a lexical scope go through all code it sees, and changes the words' scopes to a new object
03:21:31 <Sgeo> Each word has its own scope, basically
03:21:48 <Sgeo> Does make it harder to construct code from whole cloth if you're not given input though
03:22:05 <Sgeo> But in the normal case, I think it makes some sense
03:22:27 <Sgeo> http://blog.revolucent.net/2009/07/deep-rebol-bindology.html
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03:46:43 <Sgeo> A third criticism of Kernel, which I don't believe is significant enough to post (I think I saw it elsewhere): If you use applicatives to get an operative result, it's not necessarily immediately obvious that you're using an operative. And it feels like using operative results directly without naming them is part of the point
03:49:00 <shachaf> Underload [cost] (You may cast this spell for its underload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "each" with "target.")
03:55:54 <kmc> Sgeo: why are HoFs more difficult in Kernel?
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04:08:32 <Sgeo> kmc: look at how map and filter's rationales had to make a decision about whether to call their argument in the same dynamic environment or a clean one. This is a decision that needs to be made for each function that calls an argument function, and the choice isn't obvious (map makes one choice, filter makes another). I think filter's choice is mistaken, but if you go the other route, you may end up writing wrapped vaus instead of lambdas,
04:08:32 <Sgeo> if your HOF is itself returning a function
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04:08:56 <Sgeo> fwiw, I think map made the right choice and filter didn't, and that map's choice makes more sense in general
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04:09:16 <Sgeo> And apply should probably make the environment argument mandatory, it's something that always needs to be taken into consideration
04:09:29 <kmc> what's the "clean" environment?
04:09:58 <Sgeo> (make-environment)
04:10:10 <Sgeo> "using a fresh empty environment for each call." (in filter's definition)
04:11:32 <kmc> so in (filter (lambda (x) ...) xs) the lambda can't close over anything? or am I thinking of the wrong stage of evaluation?
04:12:26 <kmc> or is the question, if i write (filter (vau (x) env ...) xs), what's 'env'?
04:12:36 <Sgeo> kmc: that, I think
04:12:39 <Sgeo> the what's env
04:12:46 <Sgeo> filter has it be an empty environment, iiuc
04:12:59 <Sgeo> (Well, you forgot to wrap the vau)
04:15:43 <Bike> i think my main problem with kernel has been $define! introducing new variables, which possibly shadow above environments, since it makes static analysis fucking painful
04:15:58 <Sgeo> ". map calls its applicative argument using the dynamic environment of the call to map, because that behavior is followed by the code equivalence that map seeks to preserve; but filter has no comparable equivalence to preserve"
04:16:26 <Bike> i also think shutt's design principles are bizarre but w/e
04:16:27 <Sgeo> The way I interpret that rationale is "I can't find a nice equivalence to make the choice obvious, so I'll do whatever"
04:16:37 <kmc> Bike: which?
04:16:52 <Sgeo> I really, really like the design principles
04:17:05 <Sgeo> But I think they haven't been applied perfectly
04:26:32 <zzo38> When my brother plays Puzzle Strike he prefers to put all the gems on the bottom like in Puzzle Fighter (and the board resembles Puzzle Fighter, in fact), but I just arrange them in any order; it doesn't have any effect on the game.
04:29:09 <Sgeo> Most data in Kernel evaluates to itself
04:29:13 <Sgeo> Except symbols and lists
04:29:36 <Sgeo> I think there's a type problem with double-evalling, but the ability to double-eval some things is crucial to Kernel's hygiene approach
04:30:08 <Bike> you could reduce it a lot if you add a 'combine' applicative.
04:30:17 <Sgeo> But, lists don't play nice. They don't eval to themselves, simililarly to symbols. But Kernel goes out of its way to pretend that symbols are second-class citizens. It doesn't do the same with lists
04:30:21 <Bike> (combine foo bar baz) = (eval (cons foo bar) baz)
04:30:24 <Sgeo> I wonder if that's the root of some problems
04:33:57 <Sgeo> I definitely had some trouble inducing the problem I posted about when trying to make it with add instead of length
04:34:07 <Sgeo> Because double-eval on numbers is safe
04:53:14 <Sgeo> ) (/:{]) 3 1 2
04:53:32 <Sgeo> That isn't more line-noisey than Perl at all
04:53:57 <Sgeo> Also, /:{] is totally the best emoticon ever
04:59:06 <quintopia> oerjan: what would you call a 1 with a line over it for the purposes of unicode
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05:00:58 <quintopia> or maybe i have to use a combining overline
05:08:17 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not sure if Picolisp counts as eval-quote
05:08:41 <Sgeo> The distinction between reinterpretable data and actual functions goes away
05:09:08 <Sgeo> Oh, I should check what if looks like
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05:10:10 <deadnigstorage> mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction
05:10:23 <Sgeo> oerjan: you awake?
05:11:01 <Bike> `welcome deadnigstorage
05:11:04 <HackEgo> deadnigstorage: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:12:00 <oerjan> quintopia: why would i know about obscure unicode
05:13:35 <quintopia> oerjan: don't they call you "aejnor the great, master of cdeinou"
05:14:08 <oerjan> yes, but they are mistaken about the latter half.
05:17:05 -!- deadnigstorage has changed nick to musetteanddrums.
05:19:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
05:19:23 -!- elliott has kicked musetteanddrums musetteanddrums.
05:19:24 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
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05:19:53 <oerjan> what did e do (apart from being in the wrong place)
05:20:04 <musetteanddrums> YOU (musetteanddrums) have been booted from #esoteric by elliott (musetteanddrums) ¿???
05:20:26 <elliott> oerjan: racist nick combined with nonsense intiial message
05:22:14 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think mistaking the channel for the other kind of esoteric is a bannable offense
05:22:29 <elliott> oerjan: thankfully I didn't ban them :)
05:22:40 <elliott> I'm pretty sure "deadnigstorage" goes against freenode guidelines for names if it has any though.
05:23:30 <kmc> hey I like Pulp Fiction too but there are probably a lot of better choices for a nick based on that film
05:23:41 <zzo38> musetteanddrums: "mars in libra is now opposing my natal moon-mars aries conjunction" isn't useful here, even though it might be true, it has no use.
05:24:39 <zzo38> What exactly looked so empty, this channel?
05:25:08 <zzo38> Yes; there is logs, mentioned in the topic message.
05:27:00 <pikhq> Sometimes it's pretty quiet, other times it's pretty active.
05:27:06 <pikhq> Such is the flow of IRC.
05:27:43 <Bike> "what's with the racist nick" "uh hello i was just making conversation"
05:27:47 <zzo38> I don't really care myself about if you want to talk about Mars Aries conjunction and whatever but note that it isn't really the topic here. (However, it is also the case that we are not always being on-topic.) (The topic here is about computer programming)
05:29:09 -!- kmc has set topic: The Mars Aries conjunction and whatever | 22nd IOCCC results: http://ioccc.org/years.html#2013 | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
05:29:19 <musetteanddrums> hey guys, it's over. Why don't we just start talking about useful stuff relating Esoteric programming?
05:29:27 <kmc> musetteanddrums: ok you first
05:29:37 <zzo38> musetteanddrums: Did you see the esolang wiki?
05:29:58 <Bike> just ban them please
05:30:09 <oklopol> why should musetteanddrums start?
05:30:19 <oklopol> you are the ones being assholes
05:30:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Eir nick initially contained a racial slur.
05:31:10 <Bike> it's cool they were just joking chill out
05:31:20 <oklopol> i know, but he changed it, and it was a pulp fiction reference i hear, maybe he thought that's fine.
05:31:36 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/WKTL Anywho, anyone wanna figure out what this'd be like in C++?
05:31:58 <kmc> I'm not really hung up on the nick anymore, I just think it's weird to say "let's talk about topic X" without having anything to say about topic X
05:32:10 <kmc> i do it sometimes though
05:32:25 <zzo38> kmc: I think you are correct
05:32:41 <kmc> pikhq: what is this code
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05:34:02 <elliott> "LC_MESSAgES" is that intentional
05:34:12 <kmc> pikhq: which parts do you think would change for C++
05:34:19 <kmc> like, do you imagine doing the file stuff with iostreams?
05:34:34 <pikhq> kmc: To compile as C++? Very little. For idiomatic C++? I've no idea.
05:34:37 <kmc> cause it's not using C stdio either
05:34:40 <zzo38> How common is a Moon-Mars conjunction near 19 degrees of ecliptic longitude anyways? Now I am curious to know how rare it is, to know how easily to guess a birth date or date of other event based on such a thing if it occurs simultaneously with the other event.
05:34:52 <pikhq> I... guess you could *do* iostreams? Though that'd be about as crazy-useless as C stdio.
05:34:53 <zzo38> pikhq: I am not very good at C++ really
05:35:04 <zzo38> But don't many C functions still working in C++?
05:35:14 <kmc> write RAII wrappers for everything with error handling
05:35:22 <pikhq> zzo38: Yes, C and C++ have a very large common subset.
05:35:34 <kmc> pikhq: I guess you would use std::string instead of strcpy and strcat
05:35:59 <pikhq> Most of that's going to be pretty identical though.
05:36:01 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know, but it isn't quite compatible (unlike Objective-C, which is a real superset of C).
05:36:02 <kmc> I love how essentially every UNIX program contains a function equivalent to that my_write(). great API ya got there
05:36:13 <kmc> `quote subset.*superset
05:36:20 <kmc> `quote superset.*subset
05:36:22 <HackEgo> 1157) <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
05:36:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is the way to describe C++.
05:36:39 <pikhq> Yes, it's a really dang stupid misdesign.
05:36:49 <pikhq> (the write system call, that is)
05:36:56 <Bike> what's my_write do
05:37:05 <kmc> writes until it cannot write no more
05:37:25 <pikhq> Bike: It's like write, except it actually is guaranteed to write the whole buffer or error out.
05:37:33 <kmc> pikhq: I think it's fair to say that's userspace's problem, but there should be a totally standard userspace library for it, then
05:37:37 <pikhq> Rather than write 0 or more bytes of the buffer.
05:37:44 <pikhq> kmc: That's stdio. :)
05:37:49 <kmc> yeah, except not
05:38:14 <pikhq> Yeah, stdio has way more in it than that, and fwrite might be permitted to do partial writes....
05:38:37 <kmc> "0 or more bytes" hey at least it can't write -1 bytes!
05:38:59 <pikhq> At least fwrite doesn't indicate "I wrote 0 bytes" by returning -1 and having errno = EINTR.
05:39:04 <shachaf> there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one"
05:39:17 <shachaf> usually people name three of them and leave the last one unnamed
05:39:29 <shachaf> right, or "linear" "affine" "relevant"
05:39:41 <shachaf> so many names for these things
05:40:13 <kmc> "*" "+" "?" ""
05:40:18 <kmc> the empty string is a name, right?
05:40:29 <kmc> i bet it's hard to give your child the empty string as a name
05:53:17 <Sgeo> "The ogre appealed the match loss and got it downgraded to a warning."
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05:57:53 <pikhq> "If a file is created, the file's permission bits shall be set to S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR." Sigh. That's not "as modified by umask".
06:02:32 <Sgeo> "The Unhinged land cards should be reprinted in other sets. My roommate is so impressed with my one Unhinged Plains that he almost offered to trade me a rare for it, before I stopped him."
06:36:07 <Sgeo> "I really want to naturalize one of these while my opponent has the infinite mana so they take infinity damage.
06:36:07 <Sgeo> With M2010, this won't be possible.:("
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07:14:17 <Sgeo> "Yes. The example merely stopped at four for space reasons. (We didn't have space to include examples for all natural numbers.)"
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07:28:29 <Jafet> Book your next convention at the Hilbert Hotel.
07:28:57 <Sgeo> "As of January 20, 2014, the World Community Grid (through ComputingForGood) gives away 1.5 million XRP per day to individuals who donate spare processor time to analyze aspects of the human genome, HIV, dengue fever, muscular dystrophy, cancer, influenza, rice crop yields and clean energy."
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07:46:04 <Sgeo> I think I have a solution
07:46:34 <Sgeo> ($define! list-quote (lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x)))
07:46:58 <Sgeo> ($define! list-quote ($lambda (x) (cons (unwrap list) x)))
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07:55:49 <Sgeo> What's a name for a one directional inverse?
07:57:28 <Sgeo> An operation f and inverse g such that f(g(x)) = x but g(f(x)) not necessarily = x
07:58:10 <shachaf> g is a right inverse of f, and f is a left inverse of g
07:58:48 <shachaf> g is a section of f, and f is a retraction of g
07:58:56 <oklopol> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(category_theory) )
07:58:57 <Sgeo> list-quote is a right inverse of eval
07:59:10 <Sgeo> (Well, not sure how exact that statement can be)
08:00:05 <shachaf> If a functor has a right inverse, is it also a right adjoint?
08:00:32 <oklopol> Sgeo: in category theory, you say "i'm sure it's exact in some sense" and trust no one trusts their instincts enough to claim there's no such interpretation
08:00:38 <oklopol> i learned this from oerjan
08:07:59 <zzo38> The "Attribute Zone" Famicom game now you can see how much is made up already (which isn't enough to play the game, but the editor works): http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10913
08:08:20 <zzo38> Please try to make a comment/question/complain about it, if you are capable to do so.
08:08:48 <shachaf> Of course, inverses of functors aren't a very nice concept.
08:12:18 <quintopia> zzo38: when you have a working version can you make a video of you playing it
08:13:34 <zzo38> quintopia: No, I won't post any videos. Possibly a screenshot, though.
08:13:53 <quintopia> zzo38: you don't have a screen recorder?
08:15:48 <zzo38> I don't have any, but even if I do I don't want to post any videos.
08:16:11 <quintopia> why not? videos are cool. i like videos.
08:16:22 <quintopia> they show off gameplay much better than screenshots.
08:19:49 <zzo38> Then you can make a video if you want to, but I don't want to post any videos. Maybe it might work better anyways if different people who aren't knowing what to expect would make the report, then it is less biased.
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08:20:52 <zzo38> I am having the problem with program to record the level on a audio tape; the emulator just makes a file full of 0x70 instead of the proper data.
08:29:23 <Sgeo> When you say it's based on it, do you mean gameplay is a reference to it, or does its implementation utilize that fact somehow, or both?
08:29:34 <Sgeo> [the limitation thingy you mentioned]
08:33:10 <zzo38> The implementation uses such a fact in order to design the way objects work in the game.
08:38:44 <quintopia> do you have anything explaining the rules of the game
08:39:03 <quintopia> that i don't have to download and unpack a zip to read
08:39:05 <zzo38> Other than a prototype made in QBASIC, no.
08:40:25 <zzo38> But I can describe it a little bit: You can move your piece to push boxes and collect gems and so on, however with limitations, one being that it won't move if there is already something else of a different color in the same 2x2 area, and that no more than eight sprites are allowed per row.
08:40:41 <shachaf> is it like Potion of Confusing
08:40:51 <zzo38> Other than the two levels made in the QBASIC version, there are no other puzzles, and I don't know if it is easy or hard enough.
08:41:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Not really, although it shares that the pieces move on the grid, one of which you control directly.
08:42:09 <shachaf> maybe you should call it Potion of Makes Perfect Sense
08:45:24 <quintopia> how could it be called that if it's called Attribute Zone
08:45:48 <quintopia> maybe the name could be called Potion of Makes Perfect Sense
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10:06:25 <Bike> ed http://textfiles.com/100/balls.txt
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10:43:23 <myname> is there some connection between turing completeness and boolean logic? i.e. if i am able to calculate the result of arbitrary boolean expression, will i be turing complete?
10:46:52 <oklopol> no, you will be P complete
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15:47:59 <boily> good t\noops morning!
15:49:29 * FireFly hands myname a CNF formula to satisfy
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17:18:30 <quintopia> is there an "ideas" category that we can relegate Mahagugu's not-fully-fleshed-out language ideas to?
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17:32:10 <boily> “Category:Not Enough Food for a Zombie”
17:35:04 <boily> meanwhile, new item for my next Paranoia campaign: Bone Exploding Dyadic Functile Hyper-Arrows.
17:35:25 <boily> also, quinthellopia!
17:35:28 <metasepia> CYUL 201700Z 32004KT 15SM SCT055 OVC090 M13/M22 A2966 RMK SC3AC5 SLP047
17:36:54 <metasepia> EFHK 201720Z 05006KT 9000 -SN BKN026 M13/M15 Q1033 TEMPO 6000
17:39:17 * boily hi-fives fizzie. or minus-thirteens him, in that case...
17:44:19 * boily hands quintopia a bird stump. in a GM voice: “It is quite heavy, and ugly. It has... well... depictions of things engraved on its surface. Your mission is to transport it safely and activate it.”
17:45:16 <quintopia> YES SIR FRIEND COMPUTER SIR YOU CAN COUNT ON ME
17:46:27 <boily> you don't have the clearance to use capital letters. please excuse yourself in the [REDACTED] alphabet before you are to gladfully terminate yourself a the nearest Center.
17:47:27 <quintopia> excuse me computer. i would gladfully terminate myself if you asked me to. you know that don't you. of all of everyone i love and trust you the most.
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18:17:20 <int-e> hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120
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18:22:17 <boily> back from lunch, and I terminated a delicious soup.
18:23:12 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:23:16 <metasepia> LOWI 201750Z 06007KT 9999 -RA FEW025 SCT040 BKN055 05/02 Q1003 NOSIG
18:24:50 <metasepia> KATL 201752Z 28008KT 10SM FEW250 16/M04 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP153 T01611044 10161 20006 58021 $
18:25:55 <boily> +16? you... you little... AAAAAURGH!
18:26:03 <boily> (also, your station need maintenance.)
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18:33:00 <quintopia> hmm i think i'll go out and enjoy this beautiful day
18:36:02 <int-e> You keep reminding me that I have no working compose key.
18:36:18 <boily> I don't have any either.
18:39:14 <int-e> hmm. interesting, that would work.
18:39:45 <boily> kmc: the Power of AltGr all the way, with some Mod5 and Shift inbetween.
18:40:36 <boily> I can get ^, ¨, `, ̣, ̉ and ° over a single key!
18:40:38 <int-e> I'd need a reference card (Sure ... I could make my own.)
18:40:53 <boily> (weird... part of my PRIVMSG disappeared...)
18:41:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~àþ: not found
18:41:38 <boily> int-e: I forgot how to print one. there's this X utility that can get you a postscript of your keyboard layout, but I can't remember for the fungot of me how it's done.
18:41:39 <fungot> boily: how annoying :( :( :( :(
18:41:53 <boily> fungot: I know. and for once, I welcome your sentience.
18:41:54 <fungot> boily: alert. english dying. not that c++ is nice, btw. i probably would have shut me up for an hour. i'll have to
18:42:33 <int-e> "I'll have to" has become fungot's favourite closing statement.
18:42:33 <fungot> int-e: scheme is also useful in eval. ( it took a bit of overhead on the scheme flavor, i guess.
18:43:52 <int-e> it's still hit and miss.
18:44:00 <fungot> boily: clearly forcer's whole town is dangerously liberal. sure, they say that?
18:45:43 <kmc> fungot: fungot
18:45:43 <fungot> kmc: esobot wasn't responding in channel foo"
18:46:45 <kmc> boily: what's Mod5
18:46:58 <int-e> the 5th X11 modifier
18:47:29 <kmc> mm, but what do you use it for
18:47:30 <int-e> likely one of the windows keys
18:48:38 <boily> the windows keys are Mod4. on my keyboard it's the right control key.
18:51:06 <int-e> Oh does anybody here know how to make xmodmap settings apply to freshly plugged in keyboards?
18:52:55 <kmc> I don't; I just re-run xmodmap
18:52:59 <boily> int-e: setxkbmap if you have to, then «xmodmap .Xmodmap».
18:53:30 <boily> (also, «xset b off» is a lifesaver if you have headphones.)
18:56:25 <int-e> boily: I'm doing that. But my laptop keeps forgetting this setting when I move it around (there's a docking station involved, and possibly a suspend/wakeup cycle). I just have no clue why.
18:57:59 <int-e> (well that was a lie: I'm doing xset -b to disable the bell.)
18:59:22 <metasepia> ESSA 201850Z 10008KT 9999 BKN024 M03/M07 Q1028 R01L/710168 R08/710158 R01R/710175 NOSIG
19:00:03 <metasepia> ESKN 201850Z 10012KT 9999 FEW025 M03/M07 Q1025 R08/450195
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20:11:56 <metasepia> tensor definition: a muscle that stretches a part.
20:12:01 <boily> ~duck tensor product
20:12:01 <metasepia> In mathematics, the tensor product, denoted by , may be applied in different contexts to vectors, matrices, tensors, vector spaces, algebras, topological vector spaces, and modules, among many other structures or objects.
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20:16:42 <kmc> `unidecode —
20:54:06 <boily> speaking of the Yearly Things, I'm eager to try out 0.14. there's a new god in an experimental branch!
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21:14:46 <elliott> boily: oh no, which awful god idea did someone actually code?
21:23:47 <Bike> there's been decss news lately so my mind's scrambled i guess
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21:41:07 <Sgeo> So, the klisp person suggested I'm missing the point, and as far as I could tell by skimming, is saying that quotation isn't necessarily evil when necessary
21:41:24 <Sgeo> But I didn't read it thoroughly yet
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21:44:33 <boily> elliott: Dithmengos, god of shadows. kind of like an anti-TSO crossed with ninja stuff. sounds fun!
21:45:42 <elliott> at least it's not goldgod or randgod
21:47:13 <boily> meanwhile, I need to raffine my strategies when exploring pan. I had a nice game going on over the weekend, and once again I very stupidly screwed it up.
21:48:48 <nooodl> do more zigs. dont do tomb. skip tomb
21:52:03 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, the court case documents are being mass scanned
21:52:35 <boily> nooodl: I kinda stupidly die in zigs too. and I like Tomb. Tomb is plenty of intense and fun challenges!
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22:51:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> there should be a name for all four of "zero or more" "one or more" "zero or one" "exactly one" <-- you are missing "exactly zero", "more than one" and "zero, or more than one" hth
22:53:02 <oerjan> (that's 7, the 8th one would be "neither zero nor more", but i assume that's a contradiction in the context)
22:53:05 <shachaf> oerjan: let's call them "phantom", "superlinear", and "nonlinear"
22:53:21 <shachaf> hm, probably "nonlinear" isn't good
22:53:31 <ais523> oerjan: I think the 8th one is "neither zero, nor one, nor more than one"
22:54:02 <oerjan> ais523: shachaf didn't express "zero or more" that verbosely, so i don't see why the negation should be.
22:54:19 <ais523> oh, "less than zero", then
22:54:43 <shachaf> p. sure we're only talking about natural numbers
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22:55:05 <oerjan> if we include negative as a possibility, we immediately get 8 more options.
22:55:57 <shachaf> anyway i don't care about any of these v. much
22:56:13 <shachaf> i think the four i specified should have names
22:56:40 <ais523> well, for integers, "one or more" is "positive", isn't it?
22:57:36 <oerjan> many, many1, optional and id
22:57:52 <shachaf> The sort of situation I'm talking about is + ? *
22:57:59 <shachaf> Or "relevant" "affine" "linear"
22:58:08 <oerjan> shachaf: well the last one is the empty modifier
22:58:09 <shachaf> Or "exists" "unique" "exists unique"
22:58:38 <shachaf> oerjan: OK, but you have to pick which one is the default.
22:58:41 <oerjan> i think "unique" usually implies "exists" when unqualified.
22:59:28 <shachaf> how about "inverses are unique"
23:00:07 <oerjan> "relevant", "affine", "linear" i would say the remaining one there is "classical"
23:00:35 <shachaf> the same thing also comes up with linear/affine/relevant transformations
23:00:45 <shachaf> (not that i've ever heard of anyone talking about a relevant transformation)
23:01:27 <oerjan> i'm sure something's getting mixed here.
23:01:32 <Bike> "The code associated with this article is provided as graphical screenshots embedded in a Word document."
23:02:13 <oerjan> Bike: please tell me that's a reviewer's reason for rejecting it.
23:02:31 <shachaf> what's getting mixed up here
23:02:46 <Bike> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0085047
23:03:29 <oerjan> shachaf: first, "classical" should probably be "intuitionistic", secondly i have no idea how "relevant" would apply to algebra.
23:04:02 <shachaf> i thought you meant "classical" in a different sense
23:04:25 <shachaf> as an example, f(x) = ax^1 is a linear map; g(x) = ax^1 + bx^0 is an affine map
23:04:48 <shachaf> so perhaps h(x) = ax^n + bx^(n-1) + ... + yx^1 would be a relevant map
23:05:02 <shachaf> (between one-dimensional vector spaces)
23:05:28 <oerjan> Bike: your text does not appear within the page you linked
23:06:15 <Bike> i quote a comment.
23:06:33 <Bike> you can look at the appendix dot doc yourself if you want
23:06:48 <shachaf> oh, the interpretation was that the authors of this thing wrote that in their own thing
23:07:05 <oerjan> Bike: oh the comments are not on the same page.
23:07:25 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway what would that mean more generally
23:08:23 <Bike> oerjan: yeah, it's a bit weird, until you remember commments sections are terrible
23:09:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i do not find your relevant definition intuitively related to the others
23:09:57 <shachaf> uh, y is a coefficient here, by the way, just an oddly named one
23:11:00 <oerjan> the definition of linear and affine.
23:11:40 <shachaf> well, one has an x^1 term, and one has x^1 and x^0 terms
23:12:19 <oerjan> yes but higher powered terms are meaningless for general vector spaces.
23:12:50 <shachaf> ok this is what i'm paying you for, to make it make sense
23:14:27 <oerjan> i know this nice nigerian prince who can do that for you.
23:17:49 * Sgeo considers buying some Unhinged lands for the art
23:20:10 <zzo38> The better basic lands art for Un-set would be the one with picture of an airplane for a "Plains" card.
23:21:58 <Sgeo> Is there one like that, or is that something you want?
23:22:22 <zzo38> Something I once put into the computer; there is no such thing like that for actual as far as I know though.
23:22:31 <ais523> Sgeo: there isn't, basic lands are tournament legal no matter what set they come fro
23:22:42 <ais523> so they have to look like islands, etc., so that they can be recognised by the art
23:23:02 <shachaf> what is the point of the art anyway
23:23:05 <pikhq> The art doesn't matter even remotely.
23:23:14 <pikhq> The only thing that matters is the card name.
23:23:19 <Sgeo> Except in un- games
23:23:50 <pikhq> Well, the expansion symbol can also matter outside of Un-.
23:23:55 <pikhq> (very, very rarely)
23:24:20 <ais523> apparently the art is what tournament players most commonly use to recognise cards
23:24:26 <ais523> because it's the largest part of the card
23:24:31 <ais523> pikhq: not any more, they erratad it
23:24:39 <ais523> to "cards first released in Homelands", etc.
23:24:49 <pikhq> Oh for fuck's sake!
23:25:09 <Sgeo> ais523: ... I could never memorize cards like that
23:25:13 <Sgeo> Except for the basic lands
23:25:16 <Sgeo> And even then...
23:25:25 <zzo38> You need to make a list of what cards have been first released in Homelands, then.
23:25:29 <Sgeo> Can easily imagine myself confusing a basic and nonbasic land
23:25:43 <Sgeo> zzo38: or have one handy. Which seems annoying for casual play
23:26:31 <zzo38> Sgeo: It seems fine to me. If using such a card in a preconstructed deck or if you are drafting Homelands, then have such a list.
23:27:06 <pikhq> The one thing I hate most is errata that changes functionality for no good reason.
23:27:31 <fizzie> kmc: ISO_Level3_Shift is often mod5, I think. It certainly is that here.
23:28:04 <Sgeo> pikhq: what about not having errata and that changes how powerful a card is?
23:28:16 <zzo38> I think Magic: the Gathering rules are way too klugy and have various stupid things.
23:28:20 <pikhq> That's what bans are for.
23:28:21 <Sgeo> mana burn goes away, cards that interacted with mana burn receive no errata, some become more or less powerful
23:28:37 <pikhq> Incidentally, I hate the loss of mana burn.
23:28:49 <fizzie> (Also called "the AltGr key".)
23:28:59 <Sgeo> I'm kind of sad that Interrupts no longer exist
23:29:02 <zzo38> I also hate the loss of mana burn, although I like the change of "remove from game zone" to "Exile".
23:29:17 <pikhq> Sgeo: They do, they're calling "Instant" now.
23:29:25 <zzo38> But a lot of the rules even ones that were much older I don't like it much either.
23:29:28 <pikhq> The pre-6th rules were nasty.
23:30:10 <zzo38> I think rule of +1/+1 and -1/-1 removing each other is klugy and stupid, and the rule about Auras that are also creatures to be discarded is really stupid, and various other things too.
23:30:21 <Sgeo> removing each other?
23:30:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: As a state-based effect, a pair of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on a permanent cease to exist.
23:30:52 <pikhq> Introduced in Shadowmoor.
23:31:18 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes; it doesn't apply to -1/-0 vs +1/+0 or two -1/-1 against a single +2/+2 or whatever; only to +1/+1 and -1/-1; and I think is stupid anyways. Better to just you have to keep track by yourself.
23:31:23 <Sgeo> Seems pointless, but I bet there are actual gameplay effects
23:31:58 <Sgeo> I think I like the flavor of having both instants and interrupts
23:32:01 <zzo38> The rules are really klugy anyways.
23:32:01 <Sgeo> Faster than instantly
23:32:41 <zzo38> I think having instants and no interrupts is fine though
23:33:17 <pikhq> Note that "interrupt" existed for the sole purpose of letting you counter spells.
23:33:28 <pikhq> Because timing was weird.
23:33:48 <shachaf> kmc/copumpkin: wow, that hacker news thread you linked to is the worst thing, why did i read it
23:36:16 <Sgeo> I believe I was introduced to Magic during Tempest... except I don't remember a Mana Source card type
23:36:31 <Sgeo> But the Dark Ritual art from Tempest is the one that seems most familiar to me
23:36:45 <Sgeo> (A girl gave me that card and asked me to explain it to her)
23:42:16 <oerjan> <int-e> hey, is breaking the second wall allowed? http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 <-- you expect _othar_ to ask for permission?
23:43:48 <int-e> oerjan: No, of course not. He *is* a hero and a spark.
23:44:07 <int-e> shachaf: I considered that, but don't we usually count clockwise or counterclockwise?
23:44:26 <oerjan> shachaf: it's either second or fourth, the walls are numbered ... what int-e said.
23:44:30 <int-e> And we do know which the fourth wall is.
23:44:50 <shachaf> i thought they were numbered back to front
23:44:59 <shachaf> that's how i would number walls
23:45:35 <shachaf> i thought you meant breaking from one frame to another one
23:45:44 <shachaf> until i saw the picture :'(
23:45:54 <int-e> idl-e, hmm. I'm preparing slides for wednesday, and I should sleep.
23:46:42 <shachaf> wednesday, the middle of the week
23:48:47 <oerjan> in int-e's native language, that's _literally_ true.
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23:50:31 <oerjan> shachaf: how dare you cry at the great Othar Tryggvassen (Gentleman Adventurer!)
23:50:44 <ais523> I came up with the concept of "breaking the fifth wall", it's where the medium via which the show is being communicated become relevant, as in not just "the characters are aware of the audience", but "the characters are aware of the properties of the screen that's being used to show them"
23:50:50 <ion> Sure, let’s run some Python code for every packet on a 10 Gbit/s link and do a string comparison, too. http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4686941&cid=46012021
23:51:07 * oerjan sometimes is annoyed at how the foglio's decided to spell his last name
23:51:19 <shachaf> ais523: i think that's part of the same wall
23:51:35 <shachaf> anyway i think that's much more interesting in the context of a play than in the context of something on a screen
23:51:42 <ais523> shachaf: well it's a different one because the audience are aware of themselves, but aren't necessarily aware of that
23:52:13 <shachaf> i would like to see a play in which the characters eventually discover that they are characters in a play
23:52:33 <shachaf> except it's serious rather than some sort of gag
23:52:48 <ais523> I guess the fifth wall in the play would be when the characters became aware of what actors were playing them
23:53:12 <shachaf> well, that's what i mean, anyway
23:53:17 <ais523> normally when the fourth wall is broken in a play, that doesn't matter, you can swap out the actors and it still work
23:54:16 <shachaf> i'm not sure it makes sense to call it a wall
23:55:16 <ais523> I'm not sure it makes sense to call the fourth wall a wall either
23:56:30 <Sgeo> "Keep in mind that macros are not an officially supported feature of Oz."
23:56:38 <Sgeo> So... how does this macro stuff work then
23:57:08 <ais523> it works, it's just not officially supported
23:59:23 <Sgeo> :/ I want officially supported macros