←2014-01-20 2014-01-21 2014-01-22→ ↑2014 ↑all
00:00:51 <Sgeo> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/blob/master/doc/macro/macro.sgml looks like what the list comprehension thing uses, but I want something more readable
00:04:58 <ais523> (btw, I don't know the answer, I'm just guessing based on the conversation)
00:08:37 <kmc> shachaf: you should never click hacker news links even if i send them to you
00:12:12 <ais523> kmc: is that aimed at shachaf in particular or people in general?
00:12:16 <ais523> I hardly ever visit Hacker News
00:12:36 <ais523> also, I seem to have developed a weird ability to escape TV Tropes
00:13:04 <Bike> unimaginable ¬_¬
00:14:04 <ais523> like, I follow less than one link on average per page, and intentionally open pages I've already seen just to have something to read
00:15:39 <shachaf> didn't Bike invent tvtropes or something
00:16:37 <ais523> `? Bike
00:16:39 <HackEgo> Bike is from Luxembourg.
00:16:55 <ais523> HackEgo: that doesn't answer the question
00:17:19 <ais523> also, I don't think Luxembourg's in UTC-8, so he/she must have moved
00:17:36 <kmc> what is meant by "breaking the second wall"
00:17:36 <shachaf> `? Taneb
00:17:38 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
00:17:45 <shachaf> kmc: see the last frame
00:17:49 <shachaf> (in http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140120 )
00:18:15 <kmc> do i have to, like, know anything about this comic to get it
00:18:25 <shachaf> i don't know anything about it
00:18:32 <shachaf> it's just the person tearing through the back of the comic
00:18:33 <shachaf> i assume
00:19:30 <Bike> pretty sure the walls should be labeled like die faces
00:21:39 <Sgeo> `? Sgeo
00:21:41 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
00:22:04 <Sgeo> When was that last bit added?
00:22:30 <Bike> wasn't me!
00:22:36 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
00:22:38 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
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00:22:47 <shachaf> wow
00:22:49 <Bike> which remind sme, i really oughta get creatures now that i have a computer
00:22:53 <Sgeo> `? d-modules
00:22:55 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
00:23:01 <shachaf> `? go
00:23:03 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
00:23:09 <shachaf> hm
00:23:25 <shachaf> Bike: Broken Age has creatures
00:23:27 <shachaf> you should get that
00:23:38 <Sgeo> Bike: DS is free, if that helps
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00:24:29 <shachaf> `? the torus
00:24:30 <HackEgo> the torus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:24:47 <Bike> Sgeo: yeah, i know.
00:24:47 <shachaf> `run ln -s torus wisdom/'the torus'
00:24:51 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `wisdom/the torus': File exists
00:24:59 <Bike> shachaf: i've heard lots of good stuff. is there a linux version?
00:25:00 <shachaf> help
00:25:15 <shachaf> Bike: so i'm told
00:25:28 <shachaf> i think it's only available to non-kickstarter-people on the 28th
00:25:45 <shachaf> `run ls -l wisdom/'the torus'
00:25:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jan 21 00:24 wisdom/the torus -> torus
00:25:52 <shachaf> `? the toru
00:25:53 <HackEgo> the toru? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:25:56 <shachaf> `? the torus
00:25:58 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
00:26:08 <shachaf> did someone do that in /msg
00:26:10 <shachaf> `help
00:26:10 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
00:26:16 <ais523> `? tanebventions
00:26:18 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, and Go.
00:26:31 <Bike> what's tom schafer known for again
00:26:37 <Bike> did he do the skeleton game
00:26:48 <shachaf> p. sure it's tim
00:27:00 <Bike> whatever. that guy.
00:27:02 <shachaf> ~duck tim schafer
00:27:10 <shachaf> :'(
00:27:20 <shachaf> "Schafer is best known as the designer of critically acclaimed games Full Throttle, Grim Fandango, Psychonauts, and Brütal Legend, and co-designer of the early classics The Secret of Monkey Island, Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge and Day of the Tentacle."
00:27:42 <Bike> yeah, the skeleton game, right.
00:27:51 <Bike> maybe i should play day of the tentacle, scummvm should bef ine
00:27:58 <Bike> i should get a mouse that works for point and clicks, though.
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00:28:30 <shachaf> i used a touchpad for Broken Age
00:28:47 <Bike> well, i don't have a touchpad.
00:29:30 <shachaf> kmc: you should play Broken Age too
00:29:34 <shachaf> if you're "into that kind of thing"
00:35:37 <int-e> isn't it only half done though ...
00:37:08 <int-e> You can now access Act 1 on Steam, blah blah.
00:37:35 <int-e> "Please note that the DRM-free builds as well as Act 2 will be made available on your download page upon completion.", I intended to wait until then.
00:41:27 <shachaf> Act 1 seems fine on its own
00:45:30 <int-e> I suppose. My excuses are, in no particular order: Steam is a bit of a hassle for me, I have other things to do, and enough distractions as is.
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00:46:29 <int-e> For example, I'm reading "The Science of Discworld" which I learned is really about science, unlike many other "The Science of ..." books.
00:47:01 <Bike> the philosophy of the science of discworld for the soul
00:48:38 <int-e> (There are chapters that describe events at Unseen University - they're running a crazy experiment where they created a strange universe that runs on rules and bloodymindedness rather than narrative. There are no star turtles, and everything tends to be spherical. It's really odd.)
00:49:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> did someone do that in /msg <-- HackEgo is weird about symbolic links. just be happy they work at all.
00:51:04 <shachaf> ok
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00:51:27 <shachaf> `? chu space
00:51:29 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
00:51:38 <shachaf> Taneb: invent more things!
00:52:33 <Taneb> Nah
00:52:38 <Taneb> Maybe later
00:54:31 <oerjan> also possibly `? should strip articles since `learn does so
00:54:50 <shachaf> speaking of articles, what happened with that wsj thing
00:55:34 <Taneb> Now is time for sleeping, not inventing
00:55:52 <Taneb> Also, if you look at my reddit history, you'll see that I have invented weetoflakes
01:00:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/and Go/Go, and weetoflakes/' wisdom/tanebvention
01:00:58 <HackEgo> No output.
01:01:29 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented, we think they may be edible.
01:01:34 <HackEgo> I knew that.
01:02:20 <Taneb> oerjan, they taste sort of purple
01:02:40 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented, they taste sort of purple.
01:02:44 <HackEgo> I knew that.
01:02:48 <oerjan> THANKS
01:03:08 <shachaf> s/,/;/ or something
01:03:23 <oerjan> `learn Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
01:03:28 <HackEgo> I knew that.
01:04:04 <shachaf> Taneb: you should invent Neatoflakes
01:04:48 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe in the morning
01:04:51 <Taneb> Goodnight!
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01:09:16 <int-e> oh sleep. good idea. good night.
01:12:44 <oerjan> `? fnords
01:12:45 <HackEgo> fnords? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:15:55 <Sgeo> I have no idea whether I'm lactose-intolerant
01:16:05 <Sgeo> Is it something that can just... go away, come back, go away, etc.?
01:17:42 <Bike> i don't think you randomly start and stop lactase production
01:19:56 <kmc> i'm no doctor but probably there are a lot of factors that make the symptoms more or less severe and maybe that's what you're observing?
01:20:05 <kmc> you could try taking lactase pills and see if that changes things
01:20:29 <ais523> I don't think asking #esoteric for medical advice is a good idea
01:20:48 <kmc> that's never stopped Sgeo in the past
01:20:50 <ais523> except that you probably shouldn't inject your girlfriend with benzene
01:20:58 <kmc> what
01:23:13 <Bike> good advice
01:24:04 <ais523> I think we all agreed on that one, or well most of us, at least
01:24:48 <Sgeo> Inside joke. I think Phantom_Hoover was annoyed at a girl I was interested in
01:25:42 <kmc> #esoteric love triangle??
01:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> no
01:25:53 <Phantom_Hoover> hate triangle
01:26:12 <kmc> almost the same
01:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, could you not ask your father who is a doctor about your medical worries
01:26:54 <Sgeo> I'm trying to not depend on him so much. Although I have other more urgen worries that I haven't dealt with yet, maybe I should ask him about that soon
01:27:10 <Sgeo> Considering I still haven't gone to a doctor about those yet
01:27:54 <shachaf> kmc: triangles are p. boring for this channel
01:27:59 <shachaf> can we have directed hypergraphs or something
01:28:14 <ais523> what's the difference between a hypergraph and a regular graph?
01:28:35 <shachaf> An edge can have more than two vertices.
01:28:45 <shachaf> (Or fewer than two, I suppose?)
01:28:54 <ais523> right
01:30:27 <shachaf> I don't quite know what a directed hypergraph would be. Maybe an edge would be a sequence of vertices, but maybe that's not quite right.
01:31:10 <Phantom_Hoover> each edge has a partial order defined on it
01:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> generality bitches
01:33:40 <shachaf> maybe that would work with a preörder
01:36:08 <oerjan> eek
01:39:13 <Sgeo> Ok, was reading a page about magic, it started talking about spaying and neutering your pets...
01:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> what
01:39:31 <Sgeo> I think the author was being sarcastic, but at first I thought some spammer somehow broke the page
01:39:43 <Sgeo> http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/6699_18000_Words_The_100_Worst_Magic_Cards_of_All_Time_201.html
01:41:10 <ais523> wow that's a long time ago
01:41:26 <ais523> they've had new opportunities to make awful cards since
01:43:56 <Sgeo> "Ironically this card has become like a quasi collectors item because of its notoriety. A card that has such a bad reputation is paradoxically pretty cool." (from Gatherer comments on Wood Elemental)
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01:44:52 <ais523> Wood Elemental was the lowest-rated card for a while, IIRC
01:45:50 <Sgeo> Wonder if a Cube could be made with sucky cards (A Cube is just a format where the maker defines what cards are used, right?)
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01:47:32 <ais523> also, Pale Moon isn't anywhere near as bad as that article claims
01:47:51 <ais523> it's bad, but if you play it during the opponent's upkeep in Legacy, it's basically like you played Silence except for one more mana, against many decks
01:48:03 <ais523> compared to something like Sorrow's Path…
01:48:12 <ais523> Sgeo: the format exists, it's called "Gatherer Terrible"
01:48:24 <ais523> only cards allowed are those rated at less than one star on Gatherer
01:48:46 <ais523> also, a Cube is a /draft/ format where the maker selects which cards are drafted from
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02:05:38 <zzo38> I suppose you could also make a random Cube draft, possibly with the fixed proportion of common, uncommon, rare cards.
02:49:14 <shachaf> Hmm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_set#Necessary_and_sufficient_conditions_for_finiteness is interesting.
02:49:23 <shachaf> Without the axiom of choice, "P(P(S)) is Dedekind-finite" iff "S is finite", where "S is finite iff S is Dedekind-finite" requires the axiom of choice.
02:49:26 <shachaf> That looks a lot like an intuitionism thing.
02:54:53 <Gracenotes> whoops. http://paloalto.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/caltrain-hits-two-pedestrians-in-silicon-valley
02:56:34 <Gracenotes> it might be a long train ride.
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03:08:02 <Sgeo> I wonder if any kids were actually read that Homestar Runner book as a kid
03:20:03 <zzo38> I can think of a variant of SSA format, where there are no phi functions; instead, each branch has to forward any registers that the destination block needs (it might not do anything with them other than forward them again). What is this called?
03:22:11 <zzo38> Another variant of SSA format is the one used in JackCC, which also has no phi functions and instead has a "SAME instruction", which instructs the register allocator to place the two live ranges into the same physical register.
03:47:37 <ais523> oerjan: : is a regex metacharacter in vim?
03:48:56 <oerjan> ais523: probably not, i just put anything in [] that i'm not sure of :P
03:49:49 <oerjan> since there's no simple rule such as for perl
03:53:11 <kmc> what's the perl rule
03:53:57 <oerjan> everything alphabetic quotes itself, everything _non_-alphabetic quotes itself when escaped with \
03:54:02 <ais523> kmc: letters and numbers match literally without a backslash, all other characters match literally with one
03:54:10 <oerjan> oh right numbers too
03:54:33 <ais523> some characters match literally both ways, but if you follow that rule you'll never go wrong
03:57:23 <kmc> ah yeah
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04:54:58 <oklopol> hmm, should i referee the P != NP paper...
04:55:12 <Bike> the?
04:55:23 <ais523> there's another one?
04:55:24 <oklopol> there's one submitted in a conference i'm refereeing for
04:55:30 <ais523> and you were chosen as a referee?
04:55:30 <oklopol> there are a million of them
04:55:48 <ais523> it might be fun spotting the error
04:55:53 <oklopol> there's a huge list of papers and i can tell them what i want to read
04:56:18 <oklopol> or rather, my supervisor can
04:56:24 <ais523> the usual way to show P≠NP proofs incorrect is that they have a tendency to prove that 2SAT is not in P
04:56:54 <oklopol> my impression is that they usually show... what?
04:57:04 <oklopol> or nothing
04:57:36 <oklopol> ah
04:57:42 <oklopol> this is another common way:
04:57:44 <oklopol> Abstract. This paper demonstrates that P NP. The way was to generalize the
04:57:44 <oklopol> traditional definitions of the classes P and NP, to construct an artificial problem (a
04:57:44 <oklopol> generalization to SAT: The XG-SAT, much more difficult than the former) and then
04:57:45 <oklopol> ...
04:57:59 <oklopol> okay so the result might actually be correct
04:58:10 <ais523> just not what it claims to be/
04:58:11 <oklopol> but it has nothing to do with P vs NP
04:58:13 <oklopol> yeah
04:58:44 <oklopol> hmm, i probably shouldn't paste these on a publicly logged channel.
04:59:22 <kmc> #esoteric is the preëminent preprint service for CS papers
05:00:00 <Sgeo> Kind of surprised that GitHub correctly records dates from before it existed
05:00:06 <Sgeo> Did _GIT_ even exist 14 years ago?
05:00:07 <Sgeo> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/commits/master/doc/macro/macro.sgml
05:00:21 <elliott> that was imported from another vcs.
05:00:24 <oklopol> next paper: halting problem has not been proved uncomputable
05:00:27 <oklopol> what the hell :SDSA
05:00:29 <elliott> git is 8-9 years old
05:00:31 <kmc> Sgeo: no, but why would they go out of their way to block dates from before Git existed?
05:00:43 <ais523> Sgeo: we have Hack 1.0 in the NetHack 4 repo, as the initial commit, with its correct date of December 17 1984
05:00:51 <oklopol> this is worse than reading arxiv listings
05:00:53 <elliott> https://github.com/mozart/mozart/commit/50040db4714d38d30630a7a67836ec19da34e4d0 it's from svn. svn also postdates 1999, so it's probably from cvs or something originally
05:00:54 <kmc> I would guess they're stored as UNIX timestamps and can go back to 1970
05:01:01 <kmc> or else they're stored as email date headers because Git
05:01:16 <Sgeo> I may have been thinking in terms of git only recording dates as things are committed, rather than using timestamps
05:01:18 <elliott> this is some really SGMLy SGML
05:01:22 <elliott> + <title/Backquote Macro/
05:01:33 <elliott> <entry/<code/sequenceToList//
05:01:34 <ais523> Sgeo: the commit date and author date are different
05:01:37 <ais523> or can be
05:01:52 <kmc> and you can modify both of them if you're willing to drop down to lower level Git tools
05:02:04 <kmc> git commit objects are not a very complicated format
05:02:28 <Sgeo> Is there a render of this SGML page somewhere?
05:02:41 <Sgeo> I don't think I saw it in the Mozart docs
05:02:42 <ais523> Sgeo: it doesn't necessarily render without a stylesheet
05:02:57 <Sgeo> I assume there's a stylesheet somewhere
05:02:58 <ais523> kmc: you can modify them even with high-level tools, IIRC
05:03:25 <ais523> I know I've used git commit --author= when committing stuff on other people's computer
05:03:27 <ais523> *computers
05:03:38 <ais523> elliott: oh, I figured out a problem for the scapegoat naming clash
05:03:57 <ais523> we can't use "sg init", etc., because that's ambiguous
05:04:01 <ais523> but we can use "sg-init"
05:04:07 <kmc> ais523: I don't know if commit --amend can change the commit timestamp, though
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05:04:16 <zzo38> I want to know if you know anything about forwarding SSA format.
05:04:25 <ais523> kmc: it changes the commit timestamp to the current time and leaves the author timestamp alone
05:04:30 <ais523> zzo38: I don't
05:05:28 <Sgeo> Is AliceML supposed to be a modern version of Mozart/Oz?
05:05:36 <oklopol> ...okay the same guy also submitted a paper that proves there exist infinitely many sets smaller than aleph-0
05:05:40 <ais523> wow, I just accidentally got a 0 on the BF derivative game
05:05:44 <Sgeo> I really want to like Mozart/Oz but despite the new website, it seems dead
05:05:55 <ais523> probably because I wasn't actively intending to play it, just absent-mindedly hitting random
05:05:55 <Bike> oklopol: heh.
05:06:05 <ais523> and hit Underload really quickly
05:06:11 <oklopol> my guess is he redefines cardinality so that the even numbers are a smaller set than the set of natural numbers or something
05:06:28 <zzo38> ais523: What is a "BF derivative game"?
05:06:58 <Sgeo> oklopol: err... am I misreading, or are 0, 1, 2, 3, etc., plus other finite sets, all smaller than aleph-0?
05:07:06 <ais523> zzo38: you keep visiting Special:Random on Esolang, you score 1 point every time you reach a page about a BF derivative, you stop when you reach a language you created, lower scores are better
05:07:07 <Sgeo> So their claim makes perfect sense but is trivial?
05:07:17 <oklopol> oh
05:07:23 <oklopol> yeah sorry *infinite
05:07:39 <ais523> err, isn't aleph-0 the smallest infinity by definition?
05:07:47 <oklopol> okay infinitely many countably infinite sets, he says.
05:07:58 <oklopol> ais523: i think that's beth-0?
05:08:07 <ais523> err, yeah, probably
05:08:24 <zzo38> ais523: If it is a BF derivative that you created too, does it count as 1 point and stop at the same time?
05:08:54 <Sgeo> Good people don't make BF derivatives. I am not a good person.
05:09:03 <oerjan> oklopol: beth-0 is defined to be = aleph-0
05:09:26 <oklopol> oerjan: not in a world where they are not the same though, i would imagine
05:09:36 <oklopol> the context is that aleph-0 turned out not to be the smallest
05:09:37 <Sgeo> (Note: I do not seriously hold that good people don't make BF derivatives)
05:09:38 <oerjan> oklopol: they are always the same.
05:09:45 <ais523> zzo38: we've debated that
05:09:56 <oerjan> it's aleph-1 and beth-1 that are the continuum hypothesis.
05:09:57 <ais523> we didn't come to a particular decision, but that' reasonable
05:10:01 <ais523> *that's
05:10:04 <ais523> Sgeo: I make good BF derivatives!
05:10:10 <oklopol> oerjan: but say that theorem is false, and there exist countable sets smaller than that of natural numbers
05:10:15 <ais523> I was intending to make a really stupid one as a protest, though
05:10:27 <oklopol> wouldn't you define beth-0 as the smallest infinite set, then
05:10:52 <ais523> oerjan: one of the submitters to oklopol's conference claims to have proved that there are infinities smaller than aleph-0
05:10:56 <oklopol> isn't the idea that beth's are defined like that, and aleph's are where the "natural" sets fit in the hierarchy
05:11:32 <oerjan> ais523: aleph-0 is the smallest _well-orderable_ infinity by definition. without AoC there may be some that are not comparable to it.
05:11:48 <oklopol> oh.
05:11:53 <ais523> oerjan: huh, AoC is needed for infinities to be comparable? I guess that makes sense
05:12:15 <Sgeo> ais523: what happened to it?
05:12:38 <ais523> Sgeo: I mentioned it on IRC then didn't put it on the wiki
05:12:51 <ais523> it's called Brainfuck, with a capital B, also all the instructions are identical to brainfuck
05:13:40 <oklopol> oerjan: i still think that in a world where it turns out that the natural numbers are _not_ the smallest well-orderable infinite set, aleph-0 should be the natural numbers
05:14:00 <oerjan> ais523: AoC is actually _equivalent_ to all infinities being comparable.
05:14:15 <ais523> oerjan: that's less obvious but still believable
05:14:50 <oerjan> because you can always find an ordinal so big that it must either be larger than your set or incomparable to it.
05:15:07 <oklopol> like, maybe take the actual recursive definition of natural numbers and just say it's their cardinality
05:15:40 <oklopol> i mean, why do you define the first level as the smallest possible, and then the next ones by exponentiation? isn't that how you go up in the aleph hierarchy
05:15:44 <Sgeo> How would it get put on the wiki? Which I guess is the poinnt
05:15:54 <oerjan> oklopol: you _don't_ need AoC to prove there are no infinite sets smaller than the natural numbers btw, you cannot get better than incomparable.
05:16:20 <oklopol> and can you prove that to me?
05:17:00 <oklopol> or are we in a situation where you have a theorem from set theory you can't prove, and I HAVE A THEOREM THAT WAS RECENTLY SUBMITTED TO A CONFERENCE OF PRESTIGE
05:17:01 <oerjan> sure. if a set is smaller than the natural numbers, there is an injection from it to the natural numbers. do the obvious inductive definition to get a bijection.
05:17:10 <oklopol> hmm.
05:17:17 <oklopol> lessee
05:17:42 <ais523> Sgeo: [[Brainfuck (capital B)]]
05:17:46 <elliott> ais523: actually, that is on the wiki
05:17:52 <ais523> huh, really?
05:17:53 * ais523 checks
05:17:58 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
05:18:19 <ais523> no that's the original BF
05:18:23 <elliott> no it's not
05:18:26 <elliott> it just has capitalisation errors
05:18:30 <oklopol> oerjan: did you need some other axiom though?
05:19:09 <oerjan> <oklopol> i mean, why do you define the first level as the smallest possible, and then the next ones by exponentiation? isn't that how you go up in the aleph hierarchy <-- no, that's how you go up in beth
05:19:35 <oklopol> can you prove there is no axiomatization of set theory where there are infinities below natural numbers which are comparable to it?
05:19:40 <oklopol> ohh.
05:19:46 <oklopol> so i just mixed up the two
05:20:17 <zzo38> Forwarding SSA format is at least to look like the variant that could easily be converted into a Haskell do-block.
05:20:18 <oerjan> oklopol: of course not, anyone can make up their own crazy axioms. your guy maybe did.
05:20:30 <oklopol> (i cannot be blamed, for they are the same where i grew up: a subshift is either finite, beth-0 or beth-1)
05:20:56 <oerjan> aleph-1 is not beth-1 unless CH
05:21:06 <oklopol> oerjan: so then my claim is that beth-0 should be the cardinality of the natural numbers
05:21:16 <oerjan> also GHC is that aleph-alpha = beth-alpha for all ordinals alpha
05:21:20 <oerjan> oops
05:21:22 <oerjan> *GCH
05:21:28 <ais523> GHC is a Haskell compiler
05:21:29 <oklopol> :P
05:21:38 <oklopol> even i know that
05:21:48 * Sgeo wonders if he should try Crawl again
05:22:29 <oerjan> oklopol: beth-0 is defined as aleph-0, because you have to choose a starting point before you start going up.
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05:24:05 <oklopol> oerjan: but i mean the feeling i have is that the smallest infinite set is natural numbers, the next is 2^\N, etc., and beth gives you these cardinalities no matter what your axioms are
05:24:13 <oklopol> and aleph is the actual hierarchy of cardinalities
05:24:45 <oerjan> well okay
05:24:54 <oklopol> but i guess if beth-0 = aleph-0 in all sensible contexts...
05:25:00 <oerjan> assuming AoC, for the latter
05:25:15 <oerjan> (that aleph is all cardinalities)
05:25:20 <oklopol> right
05:25:35 <oklopol> does aleph give you all the well-orderable?
05:25:39 <oerjan> yes
05:26:15 <oklopol> so the well-orderable ones are themselves a well-orderable... err, class, even without AoC
05:26:22 <oerjan> yeah
05:26:33 <oklopol> this is pretty fun stuff
05:27:10 <ais523> I guess infinities form a category, too, with injections as morphisms
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05:28:27 <oerjan> ais523: any functions can be morphisms, really. this is the skeleton category of Set.
05:28:40 <oerjan> (ignoring the finite ones)
05:29:05 <ais523> I was thinking injections to make it easier to tell if they're well-ordered or not
05:29:19 <oerjan> although you probably need some AoC to actually construct it
05:29:31 <ais523> hmm… a recurring issue for me in category theory: there tend to be way too many options for what the morphisms are
05:29:55 <oerjan> ais523: well you would need the injections to be monotonic to witness well-ordering.
05:30:24 <oerjan> ais523: right, e.g. Rel has the same objects as Set, but different morphisms.
05:31:02 <elliott> {{}} is an object of Rel?
05:31:34 <oerjan> i'm not sufficiently into CT to know the notation for other examples.
05:31:38 <oerjan> elliott: um sure?
05:32:01 <oklopol> elliott: that makes no sense. the empty set is an element of it, but also a subset?? this sounds like the work of academic ignoramuses (who are probably jews)
05:32:05 <oklopol> hmm
05:32:15 <oklopol> altohugh perhaps you will not get that
05:32:22 <oklopol> *although
05:32:28 <oklopol> let's see
05:33:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i saw that quote yesterday, but i'm not sure where.
05:33:27 <oerjan> elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_of_relations
05:35:53 <oklopol> But what does { {{}} } mean? Wow!,
05:35:53 <oklopol> it seems that the number 1 must change back into an element when it
05:35:53 <oklopol> was first defined as a set ! No consistent method of comparison! No
05:35:53 <oklopol> consistent definition of the underlying mathematical objects! All you have
05:35:53 <oklopol> is sheer confusion. But this is not at all surprising considering that the
05:35:54 <oklopol> father of set theory was a bipolar Jew.
05:36:26 <oklopol> perhaps the best punchline in crackpot history
05:36:29 <oerjan> apparently there's a wikipedia bot BracketBot that thinks my edit to Malbolge may be a syntax error.
05:36:35 <oerjan> (it isn't.)
05:36:52 <oklopol> :D
05:38:13 <oerjan> just point the poor guy at HoTT, should solve all his issues.
05:41:00 <oklopol> he goes on to define numbers by defining UNIT = magnitude (X) : magnitude (X) and saying the difference between two magnitudes is the number (?) of UNITs between them
05:41:44 <Sgeo> What article is this?
05:42:02 <ais523> Sgeo: an article that oklopol has been potentially asked to accept/reject for a conference
05:42:07 <ais523> "reject" seems likely, really
05:42:11 <oklopol> no no
05:42:15 <oklopol> this latter one is from earlier
05:42:25 <oklopol> i don't have access to the papers before i accept to review them
05:42:44 <oklopol> this is something someone pasted on the channel
05:42:57 <ais523> ah right
05:43:10 <oklopol> ...
05:43:11 <oklopol> holy
05:43:12 <oklopol> crap
05:43:14 <oklopol> Abstract. In this paper we give empirical estimations of the halting probability for the
05:43:14 <oklopol> well-known esoteric programming language BF and some of its variations. We
05:43:14 <oklopol> describe an explicit formula for counting BF programs of a given length which is also
05:43:14 <oklopol> used to efficiently generate random programs. ...
05:43:24 <oklopol> again, i probably shouldn't paste these here
05:43:40 <ais523> you need to review that one
05:43:46 <oklopol> i think i do
05:43:54 <ais523> you don't necessarily need to accept it, it depends on whether it's any good
05:44:01 <ais523> but you're probably in the best position to decie
05:44:17 <ais523> *decide
05:44:28 <ais523> also, is that paper trying to estimate an uncomputable number? I think it is
05:44:39 <ais523> that's always fun
05:45:15 <Bike> "probably about seven"
05:46:13 <oklopol> yeah i requested that one
05:46:18 <oklopol> i had no choice
05:47:01 <oklopol> i wonder why they wrote BF instead of brainfuck??
05:47:12 <ais523> because brainfuck contains "fuck"
05:47:19 <quintopia> i reviewed a paper once. they didn't let me do it again
05:47:54 <oklopol> did you do a bad job?
05:48:07 <ais523> it's unfortunate that there's an expletive in the name of such a fundamental language, because it make people unwilling to discussi t
05:48:07 * quintopia shrugs
05:48:08 <ais523> *it
05:49:11 <quintopia> ais523: do you know of a prebuilt data-structure that maintains compressed arrays? for instance, atvl, run-length encoding?
05:49:21 <Bike> could always wuss out and use p''
05:50:02 <ais523> quintopia: no, although it'd probably be possible to do something with RLE
05:50:20 <ais523> actually, some sort of binary tree with RLE would work
05:50:28 <ais523> or just linked list with RLE
05:50:46 <quintopia> linked RLE seems the most straightforward to implement
05:52:49 <quintopia> "when this element is changed, check to see if it matches the value of either of its neighbors, and roll them together if so" "when this element in the middle of a run is changed, split the run into two runs with the changed element between"
05:52:54 <quintopia> that about covers it yeah
05:53:15 <quintopia> too bad it can't compress repeating patterns on the fly too
05:54:24 <oklopol> quintopia: what topic was the paper on?
05:54:43 <oklopol> i was only given crappy papers my first year
05:54:59 <oklopol> now i get good papers _and_ crappy ones (because most papers are crappy)
05:56:41 <quintopia> oklopol: some learning theory thing. i forget.
06:02:41 <oklopol> the kind of stuff where you are given info of which words belong to a language L, and you need to keep a guess of the language L, eventually converging to the right one?
06:04:10 <oklopol> or what's learning theory
06:05:31 <quintopia> yeah stuff like that
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06:35:55 <Sgeo> "However, with devotion, a 1 ManaGreen ManaGreen Mana casting cost is often a benefit rather than a drawback compared to a card that costs 2 ManaGreen Mana. In a world of devotion, we have to balance the casting costs on cards differently. "
06:36:14 <Sgeo> So, since older cards weren't balanced with that as a consideration....
06:36:47 <zzo38> Why don't you write {1GG} and {2G} instead?
06:37:32 <zzo38> Of course depending on the cards, various things can be benefits or drawbacks depending on the situation, or perhaps both.
06:38:02 <shachaf> depending on the ham, we have ham and eggs, depending on the eggs, or perhaps both.
06:39:39 <kmc> spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, spam, spam and spam
06:39:50 <coppro> hmm
06:40:14 <coppro> so normally when we do parsing, we define lookahead by how many *tokens* the parser has to look ahead, not characters
06:40:16 <zzo38> kmc: And you forgot eggs
06:40:23 <Sgeo> zzo38: because I copy/pasted from a website, which has those symbols in the manner I pasted
06:40:28 <ais523> Sgeo: Monogreen Devotion's seeing some play in Modern
06:40:42 <coppro> but a single token is potentially unbounded in length
06:40:46 <ais523> but Devotion's much more popular in Standard because most of the devotion cards are legal there and there's less competition
06:41:07 <coppro> do we get any interesting changes in characteristics if we allow the lexer to look ahead and change a token based on a future token?
06:41:09 <ais523> also, apparently Return to Ravnica wasn't balanced with devotion in mind, that's why that card costing {U/B}{U/B}{U/B} is seeing so much play
06:41:11 <Bike> mondegreen devotion
06:41:20 <coppro> e.g. "identifier-followed-by-identifier"
06:41:29 <coppro> ais523: [citation] on that?
06:41:33 <ais523> coppro: perhaps, because C-INTERCAL does that
06:41:44 <ais523> coppro: Mark Rosewater mentioned it somewhere
06:41:46 <ais523> but I'm not sure where
06:44:26 <Sgeo> " One of my favorite things about Erebos is that he turns off the lifelink from an opposing Whip of Erebos. Erebos doesn't like his weapons being used against him."
06:45:00 <Sgeo> Was about to ask if that's incorrect, but somehow misremembered lifelink. Was thinking that preventing you from gaining life doesn't stop me from losing it
06:49:50 <ais523> coppro: I just spent like 7 or 8 minutes trying to find the citation, and failed
06:57:45 <Sgeo> "Three, Evermind no longer turns the spells it's spliced onto blue. Really, how weird was that?"
07:00:56 <Sgeo> Pretty http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=282542&type=card
07:03:06 <ais523> <sarcasm>I thought the point of Evermind was to make spells blue, but that effect's pretty weak so they made it cantrip</sarcasm>
07:08:49 <Sgeo> I thought Super Haste was a joke. But Pact of Negation does a similar time travel thing
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08:04:37 <Sgeo> "its the onion g theres no such thing as drones its a joke"
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09:29:29 <b_jonas> hehe
09:30:51 <b_jonas> haven't they changed that now though? as in, Evermind no longer makes your spells blue
09:30:55 <b_jonas> you have a use a real Lace for that
09:31:31 <b_jonas> you could say they broke Evermind
10:25:49 <zzo38> A while ago, I had some dream where in this hotel, the floors were labeled not by numbers but by colors (and the lights in the elevator also then just had different colors), and the floor a room was on was whatever color the pokemon having the number of the room number had.
10:34:45 <zzo38> Have you ever dreamt about chess variants?
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11:05:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: could you change the color of rooms corresponding to nonexistent glitch pokemons by performing operations that changed the memory they accidentally pointed to?
11:06:02 <b_jonas> because then residing in such a room could be really annoying
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11:10:47 <zzo38> b_jonas: No.
11:12:01 <b_jonas> oh wait
11:12:08 <b_jonas> it's not the color of the room, but which floor it is on?
11:12:16 <b_jonas> that would be even more strange to just change by some memory write
11:13:39 <zzo38> Yes, the color that the floor it is on is labeled. And it isn't using the GameBoy game, so there is no memory write.
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11:50:40 <zzo38> http://play.chessvariants.org/pbm/play.php?game=123456+Chess&log=nwolff-cvgameroom-2011-95-172&orientation=fixed&submit=Print The white queen has just moved from e5 to e2; was that the best move or would there have been a better one? Moving to e1 removes the immediate threat to the queen, but maybe he wants to protect the king and this might not help to do so.
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13:28:12 <boily> good stupid-bus-network-it's-friggin'--22-outside-whyyyyy morning!
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13:30:56 <boily> ~metar CYUL
13:30:56 <metasepia> CYUL 211300Z 31007KT 30SM FEW015 FEW210 M23/M28 A3016 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR SLP218
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13:32:25 <boily> Taneb: could you brief me on what are weetoflakes?
13:33:22 <Taneb> boily, a mixture of Weetos and Cornflakes, to be served with milk
13:35:02 <boily> ~duck weetos
13:35:02 <metasepia> Weetos is a brand of chocolate-flavoured breakfast cereal produced by Weetabix Food Company.
13:35:49 <boily> oh, chocolate Cheerios.
13:36:57 <Taneb> To be authentic weetoflakes, it has to be Weetos and Tesco-brand Corn flakes
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13:38:48 <boily> corn flakes are Kellogg's, you ceretic.
13:39:16 <Taneb> No, cornflakes are Kellogg's
13:39:20 <Taneb> corn flakes are generic
13:40:04 <boily> my mistake. but I still like the term “ceretic” :D
13:40:24 <Taneb> I cannot account for the purpleness of any other similar combination
13:40:51 <boily> I think the American version would have High Fructose Magenta Syrup instead.
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14:49:12 <fizzie> ~metar EFHK
14:49:12 <metasepia> EFHK 211420Z VRB02KT 9999 BKN019 M12/M14 Q1029 NOSIG
14:49:31 <fizzie> There's something wrong with the heating here at work.
14:50:06 <fizzie> It's +16 inside, which is decidedly on the chilly side.
15:13:51 <FireFly> ~metar ESSA
15:13:52 <metasepia> ESSA 211450Z 03010KT 9999 BKN023 M04/M07 Q1027 R01L/710156 R08/710139 R01R/710167 NOSIG
15:14:15 <FireFly> temperature's rising again, it seems
15:19:00 <boily> ~metar CYUL
15:19:01 <metasepia> CYUL 211500Z 34003KT 30SM FEW020 BKN240 M22/M28 A3017 RMK CF1CI6 CF TR SLP221
15:19:07 <boily> nope. still frigid here.
15:20:27 <coppro> lol fahrenheit
15:21:03 * coppro is also annoyed at the temperature, mind
15:21:29 <coppro> asthmatic with a cold does not approve of -20 degree weather
15:25:36 <boily> there are no Fahrenheits in METARs strangely. well, most of the time.
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15:54:43 <boily> helooodl. Phellontom_Hoover. FreeFello.
15:59:56 <nooodl> boilyjour!
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16:12:22 <quintopia> boily: you'd think metar would use Rankin, what with its aviation popularity
16:16:14 <boily> quintopia: documentation describing the METAR specs is at its best arcane, otherwise inexistant and/or poorly formatted. it's not so much a standard as a half-hacked poorly structured subjective format.
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16:16:29 <boily> Rankine is too straightforward for METARs.
16:17:06 <boily> (also, Times New Roman with bold and underline and misaligned hand-drawn brackets... *blertchgle*)
16:18:05 <quintopia> what an amusing sound effect
16:18:15 <quintopia> boily you have to read this game idea
16:19:16 <quintopia> https://plus.google.com/118365124365067663191/posts/GTMGW7rhf3X
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16:22:42 <Bike> but can te cleric heal wounds... of the heart
16:22:50 <boily> can you roll a dice while reattaching limbs? like, he has multiple limbs chopped off, and if you fail your roll, a leg can get stuck to a shoulder socket?
16:23:39 <boily> Bike: of course! want to pimp out your aorta and chrome it? add upholstery to your ventricles? go ahead!
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16:24:39 <Bike> yes. upholstered ventricles is a thing i want
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16:31:45 <quintopia> boily: more likely a failed limb reattachment roll results on the limb not getting reattached. and probably you'd just assume each encounter occurs after a full 8 hours of rest, which means limbs should automatically reattach between encounters
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17:08:30 <zzo38> Someone else has said my "register forwarding format" is resembling SSA where every block ends with a tail call; yes I can see that looks to be the case.
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17:11:18 <zzo38> It looks a few people have dreamt of chess variant games: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/listcomments.php?subjectid=057f01eaab9e2f4b Are you ever doing so?
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17:13:39 <quintopia> zzo38: Milo's Wizard Chess! :P
17:15:00 <zzo38> quintopia: What is Milo's Wizard Chess?
17:16:25 <quintopia> zzo38: chess played according to D&D rules. bishops are clerics, rooks are actual fortified positions, pawns are archers, queen is the tank, etc.
17:20:21 <zzo38> OK
17:21:29 <zzo38> Is it still the goal to be the first to destroy the opposing king?
17:22:45 <zzo38> Does such a game occur in a dream?
17:25:49 <int-e_> PAH. https://www.archlinux.org/todo/remove-static-libraries/
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17:35:25 <int-e> But at least that was an easy problem to solve.
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17:45:06 <boily> pah?
17:45:42 <kmc> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/alpanumeric_decrement
17:48:03 <boily> int-e: why? where is the gain by removing static libs?
17:48:07 <boily> kmc: ow.
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17:49:07 <int-e> boily: I don't know. Well, apparently people think that people don't use them anymore, and want to save some diskspace and computation on the build bots.
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18:15:12 <pikhq> Gregor: You alright?
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18:17:35 <kmc> <boily> … it's not so much a standard as a half-hacked poorly structured subjective format ← I just love knowing things like this about aviation
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18:20:00 <kmc> hi FreeFull
18:20:08 <kmc> what's the story with your "sausage-lover" cloak?
18:22:10 <shachaf> i'm told i used to love nakki, back before i was vegetarian
18:22:43 <boily> ~duck nakki
18:22:44 <metasepia> In Finnish mythology, a Nkki is a Neck, a shapeshifting water spirit who usually appears in human form, that resides in murky pools, wells, docks, piers and under bridges that cross rivers.
18:22:50 <shachaf> not that one
18:22:56 <shachaf> nakki, not näkki
18:22:57 <boily> sounds delicious.
18:29:39 <shachaf> ask ion or fizzie
18:29:48 <shachaf> or one of those people
18:30:34 <boily> fizzie: are you one of those people?
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18:50:37 <kmc> wb Bike
18:51:55 <Bike> hell hell
18:52:33 <kmc> is that where you go if you're bad even by the standards of regular hell?
18:53:26 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=582#comic
18:55:03 <kmc> haha
19:10:03 <int-e> somehow I like 853 best so far.
19:19:51 <fizzie> boily: Guess so.
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21:01:49 <shachaf> did you read _My Family and Other Animals_
21:08:08 * kmc didn't
21:14:14 <FreeFull> kmc: I wanted a different cloak, requested sausage-lover, got it
21:14:27 <kmc> okay
21:14:32 <kmc> sausage is pretty good
21:14:37 <kmc> i was going to eat sausage for lunch today but then i forgot
21:14:39 <FreeFull> Before that, my cloak was something to do with Christel, don't remember what
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21:46:43 <Gregor> pikhq: My building is on the opposite end of campus.
21:47:07 <Gregor> Apparently it was targeted. A TA shot by (presumably) a disgruntled student.
21:47:37 <Gregor> Boy I love living in a country where it's nearly trivial for anyone to gain access to devices which serve no purpose but to murder.
21:47:40 <Gregor> Yaaaaay.
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22:05:41 <pikhq> Gregor: Yaaay.
22:05:56 <kmc> Gregor: glad you're okay
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22:48:32 <Bike> something to meditate on: "Canadian football is a form of gridiron football played in Canada in which two teams of 12 players each compete for territorial control of a field of play 110 yards (101 m) long and 65 yards (59 m) wide[1] attempting to advance a pointed prolate spheroid ball into the opposing team's scoring area."
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22:50:08 <pikhq> Until it got to the ball, that was mostly sensible.
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22:50:25 <Bike> i'll advance your pointed prolate, baby
22:51:34 <kmc> nerrrrrrds
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23:20:51 <kmc> https://twitter.com/gazoombo/status/425767066910470144/photo/1
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