< 1570839325 361933 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570839959 550260 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.166.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1570839988 623929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In GURPS, skills cost 4 points per level, and techniques cost 1 point per level. A technique improves your effective skill level for one use of the skill, but increasing the skill itself (for 4 points) improves your effective skill level for all uses of that skill. If you have many techniques, then it will cost too much points. < 1570840029 755630 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, I made up this variant rule: techniquePoints = dotProduct x . reverse . sort where x = 1 : 1 : (half <$> x) < 1570840050 390333 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that mathematically it is better. Do you think that it is better? < 1570840950 419431 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1570841776 568486 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c JOIN :#esoteric < 1570842065 522687 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1570842602 872936 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1570846610 918424 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1570848271 536504 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c JOIN :#esoteric < 1570848578 536697 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1570849014 630476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66633&oldid=66619 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+1177) 10Added a whole bunch of Reg commands added since the table was last changed > 1570849448 741836 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66634&oldid=66633 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+3812) 10 < 1570850144 982653 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the list for Charlie the Unicorn? < 1570850880 113568 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not aware. < 1570851923 384258 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570851960 687903 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1570852006 642419 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1570852493 819643 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color. < 1570852506 250332 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is a mana ability) < 1570852631 778257 :hakatashi2!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1570852907 868608 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570853055 524172 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does any Haskell core library have a dot product function? (It is easy enough to implement; I am just wondering if it has already.) < 1570855527 577545 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:101d:56fc:0:14:fa7d:fb01 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570855910 525149 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:101d:56fc:0:14:fa7d:fb01 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1570856465 888663 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently BBC BASIC has a built-in dot product function. < 1570857146 894667 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1570859115 164355 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1570859116 871033 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder why < 1570859215 972071 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-79.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1570859885 419608 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but I think dot product can be a useful function in many programs, even with lists having arbitrary number of elements if they are not used as a vector, such as the code I mentioned above. < 1570861027 640719 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, gah I have to think twice to realize why that isn't actually broken as far as I can tell < 1570861067 763273 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I just meant in terms of net mana. It being mana ability speed is probably really really interesting < 1570861518 447528 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1570864665 750052 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1570865133 449428 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570865133 529605 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Client Quit < 1570866010 2162 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c JOIN :#esoteric < 1570867018 598576 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zizgagfktlprkiqx JOIN :#esoteric > 1570869008 599415 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Kvikkalkul14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66635&oldid=8365 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+292) 10/* I think I shall add grammar and several descriptions but */ new section < 1570872870 911590 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1570875683 601798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570876337 584919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1570876803 359672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? log < 1570876804 371585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? logs < 1570876810 515395 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1570876811 321039 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ > 1570876978 838170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66636&oldid=65802 5* 03B jonas 5* (+109) 10/* #Esoteric */ < 1570877059 966991 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` sed -i '1s"$" https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/"' wisdom/log < 1570877061 792967 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/ < 1570877096 184408 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon we'll have so many webpages with logs that they won't fit in the topic < 1570877212 860020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(soon as in https://www.xkcd.com/605/ ) < 1570878884 822502 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570878913 300934 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter that the channel might be dead for half a day and only a few people reach it constantly < 1570878923 764682 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we have a dozen of log copies, this is what matters < 1570878942 236339 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any turing complete, interesting and not-so-hard to implement languages out therE? < 1570878954 195302 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kept mashing random page button for around 15 minutes, nothing interesting so fafr < 1570879004 98244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: are you familiar with all of the Big Five? < 1570879015 138642 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big Five? < 1570879016 825504 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this < 1570879022 970279 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably I know what it represents < 1570879027 431526 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't heard the name yet < 1570879053 616762 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes like, Intercal, Malbolge, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload < 1570879057 49093 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, additional points if the source looks gibberish < 1570879063 961685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :five famous esoteric programming languages < 1570879066 581049 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've heard bout them < 1570879074 814586 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Brainfuck though, have you missed something? < 1570879082 995793 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've programmed in every single one except Underload < 1570879085 609154 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what's this < 1570879092 602651 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, must be brainfuck instead of Malbolge < 1570879104 490654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intercal, Brainfuck, Befunge, Unlambda, Underload < 1570879107 203917 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes way more sense < 1570879149 964571 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge is quite hard one < 1570879153 629109 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is too popular < 1570879160 178898 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercal is very verbose < 1570879172 580060 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda is functonal < 1570879178 9996 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I haven't heard about Underload < 1570879183 279555 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think about rolling my own esolang < 1570879192 860798 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really have an idea how to do that < 1570879217 85015 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emmental seems like a really cool language though < 1570880666 349657 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1570881063 549894 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized. Not only can we no longer refer to printed phonebooks when explaining algorithms on sorted arrays, we now also can't refer to electromechanical washing machines to explain multiple entry points to a subroutine. < 1570883435 864541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight? < 1570883487 867392 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :will we have difficulty explaining Eucliean coordinates because they haven't seen the index of a map refering to map grid squares? > 1570883582 961207 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BrainCrash14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66637&oldid=64733 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+19) 10/* Features */ < 1570887507 987372 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2514:b596:5fe5:64ce JOIN :#esoteric < 1570887683 965768 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:bdf3:f23c:64c2:561c QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1570890994 380169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the previous OotS strip was published over 18 days ago. please upload the next one, fungot < 1570890994 545011 :fungot!~fungot@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1/(sqrt(2)-1) ( fnord) as modulus, 216 as fnord, fnord, fnord < 1570891066 915413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we usually write that as sqrt(2)+1, but sure < 1570891607 28526 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon they'll take as long to upload as they take to read < 1570893908 274345 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1570894996 965350 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570895197 340899 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1570895202 526370 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1570897470 255316 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570897899 745745 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.146 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Unlambda is functonal => why does it look like a bad thing? < 1570898074 353158 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.146 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW there is another side to “functional languages”, going from combinators and no variables (and composition) to defining equations and variables (and composition), on that way you could have reinvented https://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%B2 < 1570898157 88108 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.146 PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing definitions makes writing nontrivial code a bit less hard > 1570898621 42527 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Arseniiv14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66638&oldid=63723 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+176) 10I think in the end we should have this draft linked to from my userpage < 1570900537 269516 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:100f:9b53:0:14:fb3b:b101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570901579 575472 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:100f:9b53:0:14:fb3b:b101 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1570901679 921598 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570901865 595447 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.146 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1570903992 48266 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:100f:9b53:0:14:fb3b:b101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570904157 978178 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1570904231 533472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv_: hmm, that article should mention "lazy" somewhere < 1570904256 430516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in evaluation order < 1570904554 841147 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 NICK :arseniiv < 1570904594 827957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or strict, as it may be, for it makes a difference < 1570904627 313447 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hm doesn’t it? I’ll look at it < 1570904755 664674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "currying" too, because without currying, you need some extra builtins for conditionals and for data storage < 1570904774 850772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in an if-else, cons, (), null, car, cdr < 1570904785 690098 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Overall evalution strategy is call-by-need, unless a modification (for example, to allow full IO) has something like Haskell’s `seq` or `$!`. < 1570904787 566782 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:43: error: parse error on input ‘,’ < 1570904791 976155 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specified! < 1570904805 200222 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I never learn < 1570904809 293906 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@botsnack < 1570904809 389396 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1570904869 776055 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric : and "currying" too => hm I did thought it’s obvious these definitions result in functions that can be partially applicated > 1570904941 653663 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Falsebrain9Q+Fishload14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66639&oldid=58343 5* 03AnimaLibera 5* (+3) 10 > 1570904970 425707 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Falsebrain9Q+Fishload14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66640&oldid=66639 5* 03AnimaLibera 5* (+1) 10 < 1570904975 629110 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll add some explanations, how better to name the section with them? < 1570904990 927417 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elaborations, I’d say < 1570905074 376915 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: "data storage" I think, for you need currying to be able to data other than from a limited alphabet of function names on the call stack < 1570905122 774661 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode Ⅎ < 1570905125 253595 :HackEso!~h@unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/hackeso PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2132 TURNED CAPITAL F] > 1570905137 518381 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66641&oldid=66618 5* 03AnimaLibera 5* (+28) 10Adding Falsebrain9Q+Fishload < 1570905175 327558 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I wanted one section to explain about call-by-need meaning the same as lazy < 1570905285 610975 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep thinking of the strict non-curried version of this language < 1570905407 804806 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be something akin to the original Backus article? < 1570905412 685668 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ^ < 1570905461 785614 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where he makes the first functional language, albet somewhat a clumsy one, given that it’s the first one < 1570905570 376100 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC that’s 1977, “Can Programming Be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? A Functional Style and Its Algebra of Programs”. Hm pretty modern times. I thought from the time Lisp was invented it should have been earlier?.. < 1570905636 581163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: do you mean Backus's FP? because then no < 1570905650 161536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I'm talking about still has named function arguments < 1570905798 117950 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Pointfree_programming has a link to that one, we don't have a separate page apparently < 1570905880 397352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also, the language I'm thinking of not only doesn't have currying, it doesn't even have functions as first class objects either. you can only use function names if you immediately call them. mind you, you can still program Backus's FP that way. < 1570905889 636989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sort of. < 1570905903 718909 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not exactly the same as Backus's FP < 1570905928 407658 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the style you program in translates to that well, only you lose named function arguments then < 1570906273 38551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also translate it to a subset of Olvashato where you don't use lambdas < 1570906317 690773 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in all these cases you have named global functions that can be mutually recursive, which is sort of the distinctive feature < 1570906343 239211 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe I shouldn’t elaborate on call-by-need there, it looks too long or too incomprehensible < 1570906388 104559 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zizgagfktlprkiqx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1570906459 765651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: interesting, and there also is no partial application, yes? < 1570906560 455426 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don’t think “currying” is a name for a well-defined language feature, it always confused me what it should mean, and I only see it viable as a name for the natural isomorphism from A×B→R to A→B→R < 1570906648 6525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, let me check how Backus's FP worked again? < 1570906651 861633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got confused < 1570906657 406128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it doesn't have named global functions < 1570906693 143627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you can call it "partial application then, it doesn't matter too much that it's implemented by currying < 1570906694 424728 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe it means that we could write λxyz.A for λx.λy.λz.A and correspondingly f x y z = … for f x = let g y = let h z = … in h in g < 1570906753 825623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, Backus's FP is weirder < 1570906755 406081 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: then I more or less understand what language you are describing < 1570906761 969726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't have named global functions < 1570906799 195456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: for the language I'm talking about, you still have a sequence of global function definitions, each one has a function name followed by named arguments on the left, and parenthisized function calls on the right < 1570906833 340322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the right, each time you refer to a function, it must be called by all arguments, you can't pass around function pointers, whether partially applied or not < 1570906834 626879 :LKoen!~LKoen@81.255.219.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1570906840 230368 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the distinctive feature could be described thus: no partially applied function is an expression, this would formalize what it means that functions aren’t first class < 1570906867 445218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get new builtins, namely if-else, which is the only way to not strictly evaluate all arguments, < 1570906910 276284 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe case-of and pattern matching is better? < 1570906910 542831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some builtins for creating data, namely at least nil and cons as data constructors, null and car and cdr as deconstructors, < 1570906918 918676 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ideally also some basic numeric stuff < 1570906929 591418 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: no, that's not enough < 1570906941 583351 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you also can't use bare function names (without any argument applied) as an expression < 1570906978 715789 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I understand, a bare name is partially applied too < 1570906996 753359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the base of olvashato and common lisp already work like that; they also have explicit way to manipulate first-class functions, but you can't do it as easily as mentioning a function name or partially applying anything < 1570907038 969075 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyliaftefvtfausi JOIN :#esoteric < 1570907100 892921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olvashato isn't quite like this even without the first-class functions, because olvashato has let and case which lets you create local bindings other than the parameters of the global function, and I don't want that < 1570907111 701766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also the syntax is different) < 1570907511 174381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, as for what I said earlier < 1570907529 180374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"will we have difficulties to explain multiplication to the next generation because they will be buying everything pre-packaged and nothing of which you can freely choose a quantity and has a price per unit weight?" => < 1570907533 515005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this requires electric cars, < 1570907560 356149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think we're officially in the electric car future now, because this year's Nobel Prize is for electric cars < 1570908121 225717 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so; some people will buy and sell stuff that you will have to freely choose a quantity, even if it is rare. < 1570908221 334060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, it will exist, I'm just positing that it won't be such an everyday thing that every eleven year old in school sees it and finds multiplication of real numbers a natural and commonly used operation because of that < 1570908413 297274 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, multiplication would still be used with stuff other than buying and selling stuff.) < 1570908415 635002 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I go to the market today, I need to know a bit of cultural context to know which price tags are per kilogram and which ones are per unit, because it's hard to guess < 1570908512 157943 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think they ought to label if it is per kilogram or per unit. If it is prepackaged then it can be assumed as per unit if it doesn't say; if they are not pricing it per unit then they should not prepackage it. < 1570908524 76581 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most fruits and vegetables are sold by kilogram, but the ones that come with lots of leaves are sold by bunch or single root < 1570908569 109605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, but consider fruits: kohlrabi is per single root, but canteloupes and lemons and cabbage are per kilogram < 1570908593 798151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemons and canteloupes and kohlrabi have a strong rind so they don't need pre-packaging < 1570908607 671511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they aren't packaged, yet you could sell them either way < 1570908621 434042 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is OK, but they should label them as "per unit" or "per package". I did not say that per unit stuff should be prepackaged; only that prepackaged stuff should be priced per unit. < 1570908672 176221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/per package/per kilogram/ < 1570908684 305913 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemons of linear logistics < 1570908702 194336 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are even roots that are sold per bunch, which could count as pre-packaged, but it's sometimes not obvious to notice the strings that tie a few roots into bunches < 1570908720 794072 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this happens with carrots and radishes < 1570908751 35831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, prepackaged stuff is sold by unit except in very rare cases that are clearly labeled < 1570908775 172326 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two sorts of exceptions: < 1570908804 941434 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is for pre-packaged cheese and the like that is sold by weight and the weight is measured in advance when packaging and written on a printed label and encoded in the bar code < 1570908840 569041 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is pre-packaged stuff sold in twos or threes, where you can still buy in single units but it becomes more expensive, and you can buy two or three of different kinds mixed and matched of the same price group < 1570908841 463598 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; in that case, you would print the price and weight on the label of the individual package. < 1570908855 348512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the price is both per unit and per weight. < 1570908856 350841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no problem with packaged stuff < 1570908866 967738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty is more with the non-packaged stuff < 1570908890 121096 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it is OK that it is like that, since the label mentions the price. < 1570908912 941158 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With non-packaged stuff the label still should make it clear about the price. < 1570908935 246697 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If they don't specify, then, I think, it isn't very good.) < 1570909161 522000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly many of the vendors do specify < 1570909797 125671 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they make the AD year numbering the way that it is for reasons having to do with leap years since it is not precise according to when Jesus is born? > 1570910381 592920 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66642&oldid=63105 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+2582) 10elaborations for somebody < 1570910456 515164 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel warm < 1570911469 294047 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1570912061 518168 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have implemented turned F myself but I don’t remember in what language and where the project is, and also I’m pretty certain its code shouldn’t see the daylight. I probably will someday just write it from scratch in Python like with Punctree. I don’t like I write Python in a usual text editor without IDE hints but this language is pretty popular and you can easily run single files without any special manoeurs so that drives my hand < 1570912071 954661 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or forces, or delays < 1570912122 297239 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1570912142 903581 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made a chess engine in Malbolge < 1570912153 518084 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory it's decent < 1570912157 705127 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has two drawbacks < 1570912169 993556 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) It requires 31 and a half gigabytes of memory < 1570912175 218091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1570912182 578323 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) it's quicker to count atoms in universe than to run it < 1570912189 772106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1570912193 537327 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm certainly sure it works < 1570912209 22923 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^cont.) and of course I have implemented something like YE…A, even with some optimizations for functions constructed with simple recursion operator, in Ceylon but I didn’t make that human-readable and it wasn’t YE…A strictly speaking, but an interpreter for a DSL < 1570912211 519727 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you be sure? if it's so slow, how do you debug it? < 1570912220 494211 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same generator that made this program < 1570912225 496289 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has been tested to 100% coverage < 1570912233 835998 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chess engine is just higher scale of the same thing < 1570912238 525145 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: lol :D < 1570912240 688248 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has to work, eventually < 1570912248 957274 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for anyone interested < 1570912249 817220 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/malbolge-chess < 1570912258 408232 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 7z file unzips to 113 megabytes of malbolge < 1570912267 298998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 gigabytes is solvable these days < 1570912278 524850 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm equipped with just eight < 1570912295 714177 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone willing to borrow 24G and a quantum computer? < 1570912315 452350 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a quantum computer? what for? < 1570912339 833554 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would hopefully speed up the process < 1570912357 894241 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what... chess? how? < 1570912360 947097 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the quantum computer is able to solve "puzzles" that conventional computers aren't able to < 1570912376 856672 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :puzzles maybe, but I don't think it helps for chess < 1570912377 198019 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, it can break RSA encryption quite eaisly from what I've heard < 1570912384 893477 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sure < 1570912397 292307 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't malbolge just a fancy encryption? < 1570912422 188830 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've spent my entire day on writing a proof of concept in C, then translating it to assembly, and then stepping down to something 4004-like to finally produce the output < 1570912438 111584 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a quite fun process < 1570912448 136285 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonetheless < 1570912461 4693 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kspalaiologos: hm but your code should use its “features”, like a program can’t just start using SSE or what there is these times, without the programmer writing those instructions beforehand < 1570912483 798497 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1570912488 314213 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter can be tweaked < 1570912493 649372 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it runs smoother on quantum computers < 1570912501 909698 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have made once a SSE brainfuck interpreter, nothing is scary now < 1570912510 747237 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1570912516 157353 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a tape, but of type __m64 < 1570912576 946959 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or __m512i < 1570912596 634400 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimizing malbolge is quite hard process tho < 1570912605 907158 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do it correctly you'd have to know the assembler structure < 1570912619 45515 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as you can reverse it, is there any sense in simplifying the assembly down to malbolge? < 1570913086 169909 :kspalaiologos!~kspalaiol@176.221.122.71 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1570913275 837668 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trick NSA to make the computation for you, by using encryption. < 1570913445 232167 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Did you see the Magic: the Gathering card I mentioned and that Sgeo__ wrote a comment? < 1570913766 396856 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no, what card? < 1570913770 677112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have "Frore" in its name < 1570913788 735911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1570913810 616661 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stone of Lizard Men < 1570913823 902706 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: Yes. < 1570913826 606356 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stone of Lizard Men {2} Artifact ;; {X}, {T}: You may put a Lizard or Viashino card with converted mana cost less than X from your hand into the battlefield. If you do, add one mana of any color. < 1570914069 430863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there are fewer lizards now, because cards like Imperiosaur have been patched to Dinosaurs < 1570914124 612316 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there still are some, including cards with changeling < 1570914134 396035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-44.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1570914163 734096 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And you can also use Artificial Evolution to alter which creature types this can be used with.) < 1570914957 55296 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1570916587 365090 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vyliaftefvtfausi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1570918102 117780 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the "backward" variant of scope (an Italian card game)? Someone showed me that variant, but I don't know if anyone else has written about it. < 1570918469 424693 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b982ad.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, any ideas about what fun can be had by effectively summoning a creature at mana ability speed? < 1570918626 295715 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, then you can do it during a mana step, I suppose, which might sometimes allow you to play triggered abilities in a different order. < 1570919162 838742 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are also ways to play replacement effects during a mana step, even with only Vintage-legal cards. See http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.4 for one example.) < 1570920167 297496 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, that one doesn't have a replacement effect during the mana step, but with other cards it can be easy to see that it can still be done.) < 1570921673 559406 :anima!~androirc@2a04:cec0:100f:9b53:0:14:fb3b:b101 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1570923151 410974 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I added a "Frequently Asked Questions" section in story I wrote (from the GURPS game), so, if you have a question, then I can add it, please. < 1570923756 748432 :imode!~linear@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1570923770 910547 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.201.225 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds