< 1567296273 997771 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567296911 807593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-10.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567297147 63950 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.176.42.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567297521 917812 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@160.176.42.172 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5 < 1567298450 936319 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving > 1567299144 525379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65851&oldid=65850 5* 03A 5* (+102) 10/* Julia */ > 1567299192 770523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65852&oldid=65851 5* 03A 5* (+257) 10/* R */ > 1567299242 527429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65853&oldid=65852 5* 03A 5* (+1422) 10/* A:; */ > 1567300390 49870 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65854&oldid=65635 5* 03A 5* (+45) 10/* Sandbox */ new section < 1567303580 766973 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep > 1567308089 483106 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Zzo3814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65855&oldid=52832 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+503) 10/* I'd like to learn about AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! more. */ new section < 1567308155 954721 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds > 1567308197 257916 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65856&oldid=63961 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+130) 10/* See Also */ > 1567308919 567237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ABCDXYZ14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65857 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+127) 10Created page with "== Link to implementation? == --~~~~" < 1567312169 476575 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bsuqvwxztnmayouu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1567312942 215487 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567314671 221889 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:5dbf:930:c3bc:bf4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567314984 980316 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c JOIN :#esoteric < 1567315259 975807 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:d8bf:cc89:a495:266c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567317848 812556 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567320173 980553 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7d22:cc86:5e3e:3cc0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567320227 599437 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7d22:cc86:5e3e:3cc0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567320239 949351 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7d22:cc86:5e3e:3cc0 JOIN :#esoteric > 1567321623 287707 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65858&oldid=65843 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-157) 10/* commands */ > 1567321677 769134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65859&oldid=65858 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-17) 10/* commands */ > 1567321709 573353 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65860&oldid=65859 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10/* commands */ > 1567321744 119266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65861&oldid=65860 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+0) 10/* Hello world! */ > 1567321884 118439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65862&oldid=65861 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+17) 10/* string types */ > 1567322986 159488 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65863&oldid=65862 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+39) 10/* commands */ < 1567325189 235390 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1567325239 229803 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567326762 835379 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1567326976 217641 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567327226 549957 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1567327371 269639 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567327841 137299 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric < 1567329152 162786 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567329985 468622 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567330239 230494 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567330475 801969 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric < 1567330485 419962 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :B00HAE00AB00eAE00AB00lAE00AB00lAE00AB00oAE00AB00,AE00AB00 AE00AB00wAE00AB00oAE00AB00rAE00AB00lAE00AB00dAE00AB00!AE00AG < 1567330519 539035 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like it? < 1567330648 921636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this it? < 1567330780 590673 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :current sample < 1567330840 375045 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :still working on the specifics < 1567330878 59521 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a "Hello, world!" program < 1567331012 42917 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :B00HAE00A = put 00 'H' act out 00 act < 1567331143 664050 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are still numerous bugs to be worked out < 1567331248 292022 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and figuring out how i will code this in c < 1567331336 788590 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, i think i'm typing in prefix notation when i should be using postfix < 1567331635 288856 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :B00HAE00A maybe should be 4800BA00EA < 1567331963 166307 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :480000BA00EA690000BA00EA210000BA00EAG < 1567331971 539410 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more like it < 1567332125 30111 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap, move the 'G' at the end to the beginning so we get the famous "!iH" message < 1567332244 109942 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll type more *after* i have these bugs worked out. < 1567332555 233667 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567334543 432213 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :this make more sense? < 1567334549 294035 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :000001@C000b00@K00GB00F000101@Q01@CL.Hello, world! < 1567336005 157976 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1567336738 650822 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1567336826 598179 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1567338417 392428 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1567338433 230368 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567341363 473011 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567344928 523221 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567345133 406147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recognize the language, which makes this rather boring. < 1567345188 527155 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I presume what’s considered esoteric in part depends on our history. By this day, there is many things which were novel in their days because of obfuscation of code. Now, obfuscation alone is usually not enough to be interesting < 1567345197 406336 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :L100010@Q10@B00@D00@Cb00000@J000010B.Hello, world! < 1567345276 600677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, you could be pasting random strings and I would be just as thrilled. < 1567345287 501629 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1567345298 981960 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several people don’t consider obfuscation alone esoteric from the start, even. Ideally, a good esolang is a whole from which you can’t subtract anything or add anything to it (ideally) < 1567345318 709379 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it could include several striking ideas < 1567345338 77110 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though sometimes there are too many. Though usually it’s pretty subjective < 1567345403 53912 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can’t advice, my esolangs are quite ordinary < 1567345416 556774 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though one time I had an obfuscation idea < 1567345474 900906 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was to represent various constructs of a simple functional language by fearful mathematical expressions like integrals < 1567345492 878522 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I might care if I knew how to decipher this, that is, what the underlying language is... then I could jump to the meta level and ponder questions like computational power, the ability to make quines, stuff like that, which I find interesting. < 1567345502 784581 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an anonymous function was expressed as ∫ body d var < 1567345533 525357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's not a promise though... a lot of the time I find something too similar to something else I already know and leave it at that.) < 1567345541 828132 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was quite fun for me, though I don’t think someone would like write in it more than ten or so programs < 1567345554 857021 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/p4BVc < 1567345560 338840 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, indefinite integrals have binders! :) < 1567345565 928808 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was glad how it looked in LaTeX < 1567345578 531919 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: indeed, that was why I used them < 1567345596 786696 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(definite ones as well, but they also have bounds, which are a bit odd in programming... especially since you get two of them) < 1567345611 839524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: thanks < 1567345616 43755 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I’d described that draft on the wiki for fun but it requires math support :P < 1567345679 746724 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Hosted by cloudflare: [email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected], world! ) < 1567345802 741104 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've seen such code in mailing list archives < 1567345914 489424 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :A - M leave nothing behind, N - Z leave a single value behind. forgot to type that. < 1567345923 649737 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh I was wrong, an integral is a function definition, ∫ anonymous-function-body d defined-name < 1567346017 457479 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like my named let syntax more: \prod_name arg1 ∧ value1 ∨ … ∨ argn ∧ valuen ∨ body < 1567346053 515663 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that's nasty :P < 1567346076 488382 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I guess you called that language "continuous integration" to make it easy to find on google < 1567346094 726521 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: (rofl) < 1567346162 851542 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/Orcqj < 1567346172 442363 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about that < 1567346210 15257 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: also there are string literals which can contain [A-Za-z] and are written in \mathfrak < 1567346333 903020 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: is the "jump counter" what would normally be a "program counter"? < 1567346357 716955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: stylish < 1567346363 640245 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no... < 1567346397 898296 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it counts jump recursion from while or if ops < 1567346425 118297 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :name is holdover from earlier draft < 1567346430 425925 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1567346434 246903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Hello world in TeX syntax will be \{\mathfrak{Hello}^\sigma\{p_{32}\ < 1567346436 798039 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1567346445 74834 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not finished < 1567346548 541900 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\{\mathfrak{Hello}^\sigma\{p_{32}\mid\mathrm{sg}\}^\sigma\mathfrak{world}^\sigma\{p_{33}\mid\mathrm{sg}\}\mid\mathscr E\} > 1567346571 555104 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:FAKE100714]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65864 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+9) 10Created page with "Hi there." < 1567346657 662138 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I don't think I can piece it together just yet. Btw, for stack manipulation, there's the notation (from Forth, I believe) i1 ... in -- o1 ... om, so for example addition could be specified as a b -- a+b. < 1567346728 797614 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of \{ arg \mid f \}, one should really write \varepsilon^{f}arg (or arg^{f}\varepsilon), but the former deprecated syntax is just imaginarily-deprecated; a1 ^{f} a2 ^{f} a3 is equivalent to \{ a1, a2, a3 \mid f \} and so on and \{ \mid f \} ≡ \varepsilon^{f} < 1567346781 260216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I'm not really following anymore btw. < 1567346863 853353 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s okay (for completeness, σ concatenates lists, sg(a) gives [a], p_n means n, strings are lists of integers, ℰ writes a string to output) < 1567347127 959621 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: thanks for looking < 1567347711 194005 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :making some minor fixes, no point in re-uploading < 1567349485 517775 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567349835 929940 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simplification: < 1567349836 118134 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack 1: B@100000K@000012C@00D@00LA < 1567349836 118175 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack 2: Hello, world! < 1567349861 619306 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1567349891 11611 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack 1: B@100000K@000021C@00D@00LA < 1567349942 201366 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is with stacks being read from left > 1567350003 841163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Random Malbolge14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65865 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+703) 10Created page with "Random Malbolge is esoteric programming language made by [[User:Palaiologos]] in 2019. Programs in Random Malbolge have following form: ``` nChars nOffset rSeed [... n times]..." > 1567350046 2689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Random Malbolge14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65866&oldid=65865 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+10) 10Fix the code formatting. > 1567350103 164592 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65867&oldid=65701 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+22) 10 < 1567352722 235955 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567352773 712056 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1567353816 62659 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :with current set of ops: JU00030U4S000AG ~= putchar(rand()%10 + 48) < 1567354051 664996 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i rearranged some things < 1567354135 102462 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that esoteric? < 1567354563 615873 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1567354592 381189 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PART :#esoteric < 1567354637 803370 :Guest24768!~G33kDude@c-174-53-70-27.hsd1.wv.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4 < 1567354724 859439 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1567355503 981330 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1567355507 913038 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1567355901 482675 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567356087 875343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1567356372 347636 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey kmc how are you doing < 1567356389 404958 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty good < 1567358765 513816 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1567358769 426109 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1567358814 8178 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567359001 389067 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1567360146 643363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rejji14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65868 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+4978) 10Created page with "'''Rejji''' is a programming language made by ~~~ in 2019. == Commands == ln('''text''') - Prints text to screen from new line. pr('''text''') - Prints text to screen on the..." > 1567360196 973388 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:FAKE100714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65869&oldid=65864 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+70) 10 < 1567360253 96295 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :Quit: boxmein's znc went down :( > 1567360308 382415 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rejji14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65870&oldid=65868 5* 03FAKE1007 5* (+2) 10 < 1567361629 986558 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs JOIN :#esoteric < 1567362157 754804 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-fjinypizbcisjbon QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1567362340 88780 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wmosjqvtvuafuwpb QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1567362409 313909 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Grid entities.png10]]" < 1567362420 319144 :glowcoil!sid3405@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pediusiqbonjavde JOIN :#esoteric < 1567362437 493728 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-nlsqmzuxxdekfpuw JOIN :#esoteric < 1567363407 451438 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Scrabble with Go stones and chess pieces also? < 1567363429 819823 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work? < 1567363633 443059 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought how to make Scrabble with Go stones, but there might be other way too possibly a better way than what I have. I haven't thought of how to do with Go and chess. < 1567363698 298331 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :After each turn if you played any letters, you may play a Go stone on a vacant cell, and then make captures. Keep track of who played each letter; they are like Go stones but will not be captured until the game ends. < 1567363778 720204 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can play letters where there are currently stones; this removes the stones and affects your score according to which stones have been removed in this way and which letters were played there, but you are not allowed to play if your total score for that turn would be zero or negative. < 1567363805 235880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also you cannot play two wild cards and nothing else on the first turn of the game, since, that would earn zero points.) < 1567364066 592691 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. do the stones go to the crossings of the lines, and the letters in the squares between them? < 1567364148 983949 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stones go in the same square where the letters would go, in how I have, so that they can interfere with each other. < 1567364223 273952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do the letter multipliers of the board apply to a stone, and does it apply to a letter tile if it's played on a stone? < 1567364261 839070 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what's the exchange rate for go points to scrabble points? < 1567364332 488178 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The multiplier still applies to a letter played on a stone, but if it is opponent's stone then that letter is worth nothing for that turn. If it is your own stone then it is one more than normal. Word multipliers do not apply to stones, but letter multipliers do. < 1567364387 982374 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Go points and Scrabble points at 1:1 (and you will add them when the game ends), but I don't know if a different exchange rate may be better. Also, if a letter is captured at the end of the game then whoever played that letter loses its base value (ignoring all multiplies). < 1567364476 882391 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do turns work? do you place one go stone and then one scrabble word or other scrabble move in your turn? < 1567364489 826669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you said go stone after the scrabble move < 1567364507 840041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and only if you actually played any letters. You cannot add a stone without also adding at least one letter. < 1567364541 362983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is, however, allowed to play one or more letters and then not play a stone.) < 1567364546 365515 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might work < 1567364756 269267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you play with reversi stones instead of go stones, and stones can convert other stones as in reversi, with tiles counting as empty space for the purpose of conversion? < 1567364783 669266 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that could be another game, I suppose; you can try that. < 1567364960 691749 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer > 1567365563 27293 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang Grid - cursor and lines.png10]]" < 1567365633 974261 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1567365773 667078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password < 1567365775 604903 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is surprising. < 1567365919 914085 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The password of the month is ninjaed. < 1567365922 303768 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'password': The password of the month is ninjaed. < 1567365929 694771 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1567365951 678245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly you didn't seem in much of a hurry. < 1567366012 390677 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't. < 1567366037 967968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was happy about the final surprise ;-) < 1567366107 863748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I feel I got more than my fair share of potms recently. < 1567366260 641013 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I strangely misread this as “potm points” and was about to ask if there are points < 1567366357 492595 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits password < 1567366359 633749 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjän int-̈e shachäf int-̈e fizzïe int-̈e fizzïe int-̈e int-̈e b_jonäs int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e < 1567366389 850247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's month again < 1567366414 898903 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just another September. < 1567366436 423437 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hurl wisdom/password < 1567366437 365063 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/password < 1567366530 143354 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :has it really been 11 months since i set it < 1567366607 418260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing, isn't it < 1567366887 964042 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tzmscblznoylkhnq JOIN :#esoteric < 1567367222 331677 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next password of the month could accidentally be not what it seems < 1567368304 232088 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-nlsqmzuxxdekfpuw QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567368422 214977 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kcmrbxzazslmdauo JOIN :#esoteric > 1567368623 75550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rejji14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65873&oldid=65870 5* 03Ais523 5* (-39) 10unpipe link to userspace < 1567369753 264760 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567370421 418469 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567370551 264249 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567370595 598589 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1567370709 907653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{date|shortdate}\n" wisdom/password < 1567370711 250916 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-01 \ 2019-08-01 \ 2019-07-01 \ 2019-06-02 \ 2019-05-01 \ 2019-04-09 \ 2019-03-30 \ 2019-02-04 \ 2019-02-03 \ 2019-01-01 \ 2018-12-01 \ 2018-11-01 \ 2018-10-02 \ 2018-09-05 \ 2018-08-03 \ 2018-07-20 \ 2018-06-03 \ 2018-05-05 \ 2018-04-14 \ 2018-04-14 \ 2018-03-07 \ 2018-02-15 \ 2017-12-31 \ 2017-12-01 \ 2017-12-01 \ 2017-11-04 \ 2017-10-01 \ 2017-09-02 \ 2017-08-22 \ 2017-08-16 \ 2017-07-11 \ 2017-06-02 \ 2017-06-02 \ 2017-06-02 \ 2017-05-14 \ 2017- < 1567371861 992738 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I’m dreaming about setting the password the next month. Of course I’ll forget and be too slow to matter < 1567371942 424377 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad immodest thoughts < 1567371992 343509 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, modest is related to modus < 1567372272 184068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you could ask a computer that has a clock and is good at remembering dates to set it in your name at the start of next month < 1567372424 642802 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmmmm though 0: UTC is 5: here so if I won’t repair my schedule I can be there in person and need only a reminder < 1567372526 488144 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( maybe it's time for a potmlist :-P ) < 1567372624 492450 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: announcing the time has come or announcing when the new is set? < 1567372643 141752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the phase of the moon list, announcing every new moon and every full moon < 1567372662 565260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the former :P (and generalizing the concept to a waiting list) < 1567372673 556162 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: :D oh that would be more useful < 1567372683 570409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, s/generalizing/adapting/ < 1567372718 248813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hope this sounds ridiculous.) < 1567372725 171348 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like moonphases more, yes < 1567372732 500542 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe warning a few days before new moon and a few days before full moon, to be able to prepare for werewolves and other magic < 1567372862 78160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it include updates for Phobos and Deimos? < 1567372925 16087 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had occurring something useful on full moon, but no, the most I get is that white-gray dish staring in the window. Though it adds some comfort < 1567373095 188317 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567373181 401402 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :today I reread domino examples in Concrete mathematics, they’re just too good < 1567373192 128495 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1567373329 144218 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also reminds me I have almost no clue about combinatory species and especially their computational aspects (like enumeration or counting) < 1567373384 523250 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn’t there something like a Baez page on them? < 1567373680 568963 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567373716 410825 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be cool to not only parse HTML using regex, but to combine them in some way < 1567373744 544742 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A markup language that operates using regex, called REML < 1567373796 762796 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, I don't believe it's possible to completely parse HTML with regex, but the idea is nice < 1567374391 533922 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a language that uses the REML concept would be befitting for the wiki < 1567374404 572903 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely not your everyday language > 1567375514 960680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang Grid - Fragments.png10]]" < 1567375515 568561 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1567376466 20006 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tzmscblznoylkhnq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1567378101 417680 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567378136 99120 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jajxgsvybiaxgeuz QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1567378230 469929 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1567378305 941114 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1567378410 682734 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vgbqdvujupbyfhqh JOIN :#esoteric > 1567379234 101365 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65875&oldid=63919 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+977) 10 < 1567380019 887888 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1567383195 162626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65876&oldid=46716 5* 03B jonas 5* (+8) 10 < 1567383638 308911 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am writing "pollcube" software for making a survey. What formats of questions might it be? So far I have "Select all that apply", "Select [number]", "Select up to [number]", "Select [number] to [number]", "Enter any text", "Enter a number up to [number]", "Enter numbers adding up to [number]", and "Enter numbers adding up to not more than [number]". < 1567383697 223015 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567384391 641216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: a table of multiple questions, one question per table row, where you select an option button with a fixed small number of buttons for each question, and short labels for the answers above, poll creator chooses the short labels eg. they could be (true, false) or (1,2,3,4,5,N/A) < 1567384428 696320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also option buttons to select exactly one answer, and a version where the last option is write-in with a text box < 1567384429 219614 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567384469 903981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also perhaps a field where you enter either a number or nothing < 1567384519 418186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for entering text, you probably want both short (one-line) answer input fields and longer answer textareas < 1567384607 388625 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1567384689 988091 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Beets14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65877 5* 03Qpliu 5* (+2703) 10Created page with "The Beets programming language enables expressing calculations on infinite binary trees of bits. ==Grammar== program = definition* definition = identifier identifier* '='..." > 1567384699 919550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65878&oldid=65867 5* 03Qpliu 5* (+12) 10/* B */ < 1567384708 141506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567384972 110022 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567385545 211726 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.232.242 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567389670 909476 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "Select one" would mean you have to select exactly one; it is a case of the "Select [number]" format. < 1567389725 989445 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, the system is designed to be UI-independent. Still, the table of questions is a suitable idea. < 1567389779 737466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A version where the last option is write-in with a text box, is one idea I did think of though; if it says "(please specify)" then you can add your own text. < 1567390001 409082 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567391055 468456 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:5dbf:930:c3bc:bf4 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567394947 606656 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:50dd:627b:a242:9770 JOIN :#esoteric > 1567395353 125019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65879&oldid=65222 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+0) 10/* Conditional looping */ > 1567401326 308846 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65880&oldid=64854 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+1284) 10 > 1567401692 279521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65881&oldid=65804 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+136) 10 > 1567401782 176231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox514]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65882 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+135) 10Created page with "'''Qyfn''' (official pronunciation: ku-you-fu-na) is a programming language designed by [[User:YamTokTpaFa]], a derivation of [[Pxem]]." < 1567403628 774859 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are you going to http://events.cs.bham.ac.uk/syco/strings3-syco5/ ? > 1567406050 79036 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang "Grid" - example of initial grid transformation.png10]]" > 1567409668 934588 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang "Grid" - example of connecting external shapes.png10]]" < 1567410315 27889 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567411593 899955 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1567411678 3036 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567411711 954734 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, multiple UIs can work for the same questionnaire, but you still need some hints in the questions so that the UI can present the forms reasonably < 1567411729 766650 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML already works sort of like that < 1567412330 970799 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567412535 951958 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7d22:cc86:5e3e:3cc0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1567412542 835732 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang "Grid" - Example of connecting internal shapes 1.png10]]" < 1567413739 475867 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567413752 290639 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1567413964 435812 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567417048 79520 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1567422472 777174 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jgrzgtnrhdlsolyn QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567422472 777239 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gyihruazwgiwmswh QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567422475 591200 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ncczfxvtukhbvxzj QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567422498 572188 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vgbqdvujupbyfhqh QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567422498 715734 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nyrluaouspeotanf QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1567422823 620807 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-biashtdjbgpiqweh JOIN :#esoteric < 1567424162 453220 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wwbrvavikfquqrdr JOIN :#esoteric < 1567424162 529674 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ygkrcyzmejclvgli JOIN :#esoteric < 1567424162 567778 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-dsnxactigjgjnnqm JOIN :#esoteric < 1567424170 597133 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xdxepdzvghfmmovu JOIN :#esoteric < 1567425000 431330 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1567427133 973161 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 JOIN :#esoteric > 1567427219 953773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Hakerh400 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Esolang "Grid" - loop.png10]]" < 1567428010 979050 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mgqnlfgmaugyuebp JOIN :#esoteric < 1567429685 225414 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric > 1567433139 478213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello++14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65887&oldid=58441 5* 03Gamer 5* (+426) 10/* Interpreter */ < 1567435340 241867 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567435527 131123 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds > 1567436031 919723 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Enigma-2D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65888&oldid=62056 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+41) 10Linking > 1567436359 309470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65889&oldid=65879 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+6) 10/* pxemi.7z and text2pxem.pl */ > 1567436676 711086 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65890&oldid=65762 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+302) 10/* Pxem */ < 1567438633 813554 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567438974 132759 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567439158 217901 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567439435 182113 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I learned enough QuickCheck to write some crude property tests for the Robin interpreter. To do it properly I'd probably want to make custom generators for particular kinds of expressions (particularly environments), and so forth. < 1567439464 13556 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will probably release Robin 0.4 tomorrow and then not think about it for a long time again. < 1567439503 971811 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's absolutely no reason you should care, I'm just typing this out as some sort of coping mechanism probably. < 1567439529 349606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine. < 1567439590 564208 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Future cpressey, who I assume log reads, are you OK? < 1567443722 293049 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1567444719 997533 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1567445219 436057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1567446488 279394 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567446587 902255 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1567446646 975393 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567446647 296527 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567448852 755453 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if you want to use bitmap fonts or other external fonts with PostScript, one possibility might be to define a Type 3 font which is programmed to determine the current position on the page and to write that together with the character code to a separate output file, and then afterward, they can be combined with the main output file. < 1567449069 822225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but postscript already supports bitmap fonts in some existing font formats < 1567449347 975114 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to work that? I also don't know if it is a feature that Ghostscript supports < 1567449628 952356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know, ask the converters that make postscript from TeX's dvi files and use TeX fonts < 1567449667 359114 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think ghostscript supports it < 1567449766 30923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.ghostscript.com/doc/9.27/Fonts.htm says something about BDF fonts < 1567449878 435335 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although that just converts a bitmap font into a Type 1 font, which will not be of a such good quality. < 1567449922 234898 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so maybe get the TeXlive sources and look at how they handle TeX fonts < 1567449948 145775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never tried to dive into those details < 1567450024 556563 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567450129 167388 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also other uses of external fonts other than bitmap fonts, such as if you want to convert PostScript or DVI. < 1567450170 209017 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure < 1567450200 914929 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, python doesn't seem to have an equivalent of the perl/sed tr operator that also gives you the count of characters it's replaced < 1567450204 737417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pity < 1567450278 428204 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess since it also doesn't have the bitwise operators for bytes objects, so you couldn't do that sort of thing so easily anyway < 1567451863 941399 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567451907 426209 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567451923 979454 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567453450 524176 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:50dd:627b:a242:9770 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567453648 24624 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:50dd:627b:a242:9770 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1567454926 188688 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567455073 411442 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567455131 198340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1567456819 211174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that's evil < 1567456982 257071 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567457023 465417 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1567457160 429364 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1567457240 60396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote a program in PostScript to write out JSON data to a file. For example, if the PostScript code is: << /hello true /world false /this [1 2 5 << /a (aaa) /b (ccc\\ddd\n123"!@#$) >> null] /that << /hello false /world true >> then it will write: {"that":{"world":true,"hello":false},"world":false,"hello":true,"this":[1,2,5,{"a":"aaa","b":"ccc\u005Cddd\u000A123\u0022!@#$"},null]} < 1567457283 619454 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The next thing to write is to parse the JSON data.) < 1567457323 958313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need a JSON parser? isn't it generally more convenient to make the other side write postscript code? or do you want to parse untrusted data? < 1567457349 586128 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case the other side is not meant to work with PostScript. < 1567457372 605852 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is rather a program designed to be used with stuff other than PostScript. < 1567457974 842054 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mgqnlfgmaugyuebp QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1567458463 245366 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65891&oldid=65863 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1065) 10I have another language in draft from my head, so i used [za hando] to replace it with another one in draft. > 1567458567 165168 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65892&oldid=65891 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+7) 10/* Beginning of the Sandbox line */ > 1567459060 153903 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65893&oldid=65892 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+0) 10/* instruction wheels */ > 1567459651 197863 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65894&oldid=65893 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+305) 10/* instruction wheels */ < 1567462251 973629 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1567462732 809904 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: 𝑽𝒆𝒍𝒐𝒄𝒊𝒓𝒂𝒑𝒕𝒐𝒓 < 1567462909 518046 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1567463359 663989 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : > 1567463851 732796 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65895&oldid=57502 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (+0) 10/* Numbers */ Alignment of 1 < 1567463956 879010 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1567466985 98991 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1567467054 501939 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65896&oldid=43690 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-14) 10optimize a few numbers < 1567470226 790572 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xdxepdzvghfmmovu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567470242 648957 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-biashtdjbgpiqweh QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567470251 720656 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-dsnxactigjgjnnqm QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567470256 252059 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ygkrcyzmejclvgli QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567470256 537598 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wwbrvavikfquqrdr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1567470721 695931 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jcbjzllunqebinmp JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471153 810748 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471208 881247 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this esoteric or just confusing? https://paste.ee/p/8JCjK < 1567471897 223924 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567471943 310100 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fgtdkxmnxqffajyg JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471943 916572 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-idmcbvpovfbwuywt JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471943 960498 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ucebfsfbbespuavj JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471949 274513 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567471951 7435 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kgbvsicjgmioiwgs JOIN :#esoteric < 1567472102 681546 :budonyc!~budonyc@c-24-62-204-147.hsd1.ma.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1567472374 338495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the ability for PostScript programs to have command-line arguments specific to Ghostscript? (Even if so, it would be possible to emulate it just as well with other implementations.) > 1567473158 162020 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65897 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+23410) 10New language: Grid < 1567473196 889203 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hi > 1567473274 937595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65898&oldid=65878 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+11) 10Add "Grid" to the language list > 1567473333 766594 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65899&oldid=64427 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+11) 10 < 1567473350 560878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1567473414 429111 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you take a look at the language specs i posted and give me your opinion? < 1567473440 274300 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at it, and currently do not have something to say about it. < 1567473458 113317 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally got it working < 1567473546 189574 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my first with loops < 1567473584 61640 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of jumps < 1567473789 180532 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my first that doesn't require an "assembler" < 1567474247 513853 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/m0sel better paste (has source) > 1567474697 543697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65900&oldid=65897 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1) 10 < 1567475111 77952 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1567475251 18926 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65901&oldid=65900 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10 > 1567475315 905421 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65902&oldid=65901 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+0) 10 < 1567475424 609654 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evenebqtoeflwoye JOIN :#esoteric > 1567475529 121967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65903&oldid=65902 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-5) 10 > 1567475649 935011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65904&oldid=65903 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+1) 10 < 1567481064 413356 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1567481092 319761 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1567483440 594668 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65905&oldid=65896 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-17) 10Run length encoding > 1567488051 740330 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65906&oldid=65905 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-17) 10removing old 36 > 1567488404 795613 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65907&oldid=65906 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-25) 10A few more changes > 1567492712 238566 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65908&oldid=65782 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+173) 10/* Stupid */ < 1567492808 227045 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evenebqtoeflwoye QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1567495556 138793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-14.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1567496511 494821 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567496857 337430 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pythagorus's Lesser Known Theorem: the square of one side of an equilateral triangle is equal to the average of the squares of the other two sides. < 1567497273 647808 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, Pythagorus, yeah, he was Pythagoras's cousin dontchaknow. < 1567499389 118416 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567499703 894248 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, that theorem is more general. it says that for a triangle with a pi/3 or 2*pi/3 angle (rather than a right angle), c = a**2 + b**2 \pm a*b, where a and b are the sides next to that angle, c is the side opposite of that, and you take the negative sign for the non-acute angle. what you say is the special case for a=b and acute angle. < 1567499719 20536 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no argh, I said that wront < 1567499726 13069 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that theorem is more general. it says that for a triangle with a pi/3 or 2*pi/3 angle (rather than a right angle), c = a**2 + b**2 \pm a*b, where a and b are the sides next to that angle, c is the side opposite of that, and you take the negative sign for the acute angle. what you say is the special case for a=b and acute angle. < 1567499745 242997 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: due to unique properties of equilateral triangles, it's also equal to the geometric mean of the squares of the other two sides < 1567499812 749260 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-12-17.2175.trigonometrie-triangle.html is a handy reference for triangle formulas on euclidean, hyperbolic and spheric triangles < 1567499817 613098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of those formulas count as lesser known too < 1567499994 262300 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567500142 259625 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1567500303 652336 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1567501054 959357 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1567501936 524996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65909 5* 03A 5* (+945) 10Created page with "[[Pth]] is a dedicated declarative path-finding language created in order to make path-finding challenges on CGCC very trivial. ==Example program==
 # Transition starts..."
< 1567502239 102954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: are you reading the whole madore website?
< 1567502488 343979 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: IIRC he said he’s not as familiar with older posts there when we were talking about card deck design
< 1567502818 860645 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, but most of the new posts. 
< 1567502836 435552 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I haven't read most of the older year's blog part, and probably won't
< 1567502840 666228 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :years'
> 1567504081 26160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65910&oldid=65909 5* 03A 5* (-181) 10
> 1567504119 766977 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65911&oldid=65910 5* 03A 5* (+56) 10
< 1567504159 601201 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1567504320 846256 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65912&oldid=65911 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10
> 1567504394 378879 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65913&oldid=65912 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10
> 1567504655 55723 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65914&oldid=65913 5* 03A 5* (+58) 10
< 1567505316 531975 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange... python 3.6 adds a subscripting operator to the re.Match object, but doesn't go the whole way to make it iterable so you can conveniently multipe-assign from it
> 1567506810 997966 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Kritixilithos 5*  10New user account
< 1567507161 117506 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)
> 1567507197 350500 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65915&oldid=65772 5* 03Kritixilithos 5* (+195) 10
> 1567507491 28617 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07AlphaBeta14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65916&oldid=60820 5* 03Kritixilithos 5* (+23) 10Fixed the cat program
< 1567509497 982151 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567509603 47505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot!
< 1567509603 572717 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: brought home a nice carpet from summer fnord garden shed a tear" as a verb when an existing verb works perfectly well for me
< 1567512312 880137 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was some internet trouble at home.
< 1567512321 828967 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like if they'd provide a little more information about these things.
< 1567512365 658680 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "dashboard", but it's just an orb that's either green with a hover-tip of "no problems" (paraphrasing), or red with a stock "we're sorry, our engineers are investigating, thank you for your patience" message.
< 1567512465 646311 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Welcome back online.
< 1567512465 891518 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: want an explanation of access either the path or the closure out of it
< 1567512473 550352 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :...scary...
< 1567512501 519974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Well, as I just said, the ISP isn't too forthcoming with information. Maybe you could contact their support yourself? 
< 1567512501 941714 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: e!bf http://kidsquid.com/ fnord translation for this. easy to translate to void fnord blah fnord " a deep dark secret". even though the guy was real idiot...
< 1567512521 998572 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect, maybe that's not such a great idea.
> 1567515220 958676 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ASCII @14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65917 5* 03A 5* (+3895) 10Created page with "[[ASCII @]] is a programming language created by [[User:A]], due to failing code-golf competitions because @ instructions sometimes take 2 characters. This transpiles to [[@]]..."
> 1567515565 933250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ASCII @14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65918&oldid=65917 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10
< 1567516371 339806 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567518257 605425 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567518537 598783 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567520235 981570 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567521003 503138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Dominic3203 5*  10New user account
< 1567522403 553870 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567522708 903442 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1567524641 600701 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1178
< 1567524642 974422 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1178: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1567525266 409878 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie: want an explanation of access either the path or the closure out of it => I think fungot mentions the free category of a graph! :o
< 1567525266 703950 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: any string containing neither nor is a symbol, whose hash value will itself have been updated with a new program, like bf dev??
< 1567525314 409588 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm stop no paths are already a “closure” of a graph’s edges
< 1567525469 696005 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: neither nor?
< 1567525470 151870 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: annnd my irssi runs over ssh on bistromath. hrm. that doesn't mean we have the long one, but the
< 1567529187 239845 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567530173 726779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567530624 521606 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqceplhwfwfmzbsu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567532138 84760 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a linear approximation to some f: A → B, to have a graph which is a subspace of A × B, A and B are sufficient to be affine spaces (and for graph of f itself to be such, linear spaces). What weakest kind of spaces may A, B be for f’s quadratic approximation to have a graph being a subspace of A × B?
< 1567532161 245031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly any differentiable manifold suffices but it’s too strong
< 1567532241 147726 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone had already developed what those spaces could be
< 1567532296 934414 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe I should restate the question in terms of no graphs and products of spaces, it seems superfluous
< 1567532312 442908 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don’t know how right now
< 1567532400 959064 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I seem to misplace linear spaces here
< 1567532467 98567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be something of a “constant space”
< 1567532707 185109 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i. e. all or some conic hypersurfaces should be subspaces in this “quadratic-affine space”
< 1567532748 699725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm isn’t it what affine varieties are about
< 1567532907 204584 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this question is weird, I don’t understand which way it could be restated to make sense of “constant spaces” where only graphs of constant functions are subspaces of dom f × cod f
< 1567534715 264150 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote election
< 1567534716 308892 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :528)  Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters. \ 943) * ais523 challenges the americans here to remember who lost in the most recent UK general election   ais523, the lib dems
> 1567535142 168103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Underload/Numbers14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65919&oldid=65907 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (-5) 10A few more improvements
< 1567540180 736653 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqceplhwfwfmzbsu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567543378 623427 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567543526 547180 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567545730 682053 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567545859 272678 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567548564 193874 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567549276 370988 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567550555 236725 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567550572 148875 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567553440 233643 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.210.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567553456 477586 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567554047 414495 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567554115 514698 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567554463 100846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I wrote the JSON parser as well as JSON writer in PostScript.
< 1567554480 860840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not PSON?
< 1567554577 16437 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one feature is not yet implemented, which is if JSON.utf8 is true then it will not support Unicode characters outside of the ASCII range yet; that option is supposed to enable that feature. (If JSON.utf8 is false, then it will work, but any \u escapes will use only the low 8-bits of the character code.)
< 1567554624 453631 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What is PSON?
< 1567555243 364336 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :PostScript Object Notation
< 1567555269 52348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to use PostScript Object Notation then you can use the built-in commands of PostScript.
< 1567555348 402487 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is good if the data is only written and read by PostScript programs, or if used with other programs that are designed to be used with PostScript, but some programs are not designed for use with PostScript and are using JSON, so, this way, if the external data is JSON then still you can use it with PostScript anyways.
< 1567560234 992756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usenet article <1567559086.bystand@zzo38computer.org> includes this program. It can also be downloaded from: https://arin.ga/yoZtdL
< 1567560796 234212 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567560889 982409 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:71fc:e507:99a9:16d0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567561346 424744 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a4b-4.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567561411 837437 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567561569 881508 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-bcee02-33.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567562672 918829 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:41b1:8877:c5f6:6e57 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567566882 837749 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567568211 243248 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567568406 470647 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567570900 970888 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567574545 323848 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567574863 847837 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567575068 476220 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a slide rule with roman numbers?
< 1567575092 954096 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567575175 69131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The numbers keep roamin' back and forth on a log scale.
> 1567575507 15186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65920&oldid=65904 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10
< 1567579272 184624 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-190.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567582151 923869 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567583286 151085 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567583808 798189 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. Other than Haskell, I can't think of any popular functional languages that actually forbid mutability. The vast majority provide some kind of destructive update, but frown on using it.
< 1567583849 954113 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567583871 610291 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in a way there is mutation in haskell, like stref 
< 1567583962 467738 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or curry
< 1567583966 435302 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love curry
< 1567583996 43173 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess minikanren doesn't have mutation
< 1567584080 578549 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curry's not exactly popular, and Minikanren isn't really a language :)
< 1567584092 213133 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah  because its not turing complete
< 1567584112 951531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it needs another language to be embedded in, and that language needs to have things like lambdas
< 1567584229 980963 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry is so unpopular, there isn't even an aur package for one of its implementations
< 1567584249 471006 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about LSON 
< 1567584254 759607 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp Object Notation
< 1567584370 53105 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are object notations really programming languages?
< 1567584401 563764 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object Notation
< 1567584431 153159 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~paige/Bon/bon.html
< 1567584459 460675 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://libujo.org/ UJO Data Object Notation is a binary data serialization format for the Internet of Things and machine to machine (M2M) applications. The name UJO is Esperanto and means container
< 1567584463 896209 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is epic cringe\
< 1567584584 496843 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the abbreviation UDON, though
< 1567584590 94179 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound delicious
< 1567584661 617343 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm, I don't think jq has mutability
< 1567584757 134504 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a streaming language, so it has things that might look like mutability but aren't (they're closer to record updates)
< 1567585073 954070 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567585082 246436 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567585106 247985 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567585157 417678 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/MakeNowJust/bf.jq
< 1567585221 309268 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Popular enough and Turing-complete enough for someone to have written a Brainfuck interpreter in it"
< 1567585280 790431 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear
< 1567585787 421888 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567585823 930320 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567586002 604336 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I wrote one of those a couple of months back, https://gist.github.com/Taneb/be9d6d5048ce6ca3c5563df223052c6b
< 1567586069 663420 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mine has partial support for , and is thus vastly superior)
< 1567586347 715386 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed!
< 1567586405 801360 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I like the lack of indentation in the nested ifs
< 1567586435 296576 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1567586686 583828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a bf interepreter for my editor once, whose scripting language lacks conditionals.
< 1567586696 503436 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567586697 748576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can express them in terms of try-catch, though.
< 1567586768 751683 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567587998 567926 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, just like javagony
< 1567588083 685941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, there's also no recursion.
< 1567588103 688520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So under normal circumstances infinite loops are impossible.
< 1567588121 794586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can set things to happen based on events, including "user is idle".
< 1567588143 930228 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567588216 238053 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567588498 696017 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Interfrac14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65921&oldid=60495 5* 03A 5* (+270) 10
< 1567588555 471403 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567588724 121912 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Interfrac14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65922&oldid=65921 5* 03A 5* (+360) 10/* Proof that your formula is invalid! */
< 1567588756 49577 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1567588806 633746 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Interfrac14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65923&oldid=65922 5* 03A 5* (+91) 10/* Proof that your formula is invalid! */
< 1567588835 416867 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
> 1567588880 836392 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Interfrac14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65924&oldid=60492 5* 03A 5* (+110) 10/* Introduction */ Your formula is wrong.
> 1567592240 359822 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65925&oldid=65853 5* 03Kritixilithos 5* (+214) 10added sed interpreter of deadfish
< 1567594646 533872 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567596758 317304 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567597961 797383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65926&oldid=65799 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1567597971 388025 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65927&oldid=65926 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10/* Countdown */
> 1567597980 213057 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Point14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65928&oldid=65927 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10/* Counting up */
> 1567598637 43653 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65929&oldid=65890 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+55) 10adding more lang because we need to give esolang maker a pleasure
> 1567598773 720778 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ASCII @14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65930&oldid=65918 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+2) 10dont lie, A, this is unimplemented.
> 1567598941 778201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PureStack14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65931&oldid=65549 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+6) 10FTFY, becuaz your example header has a problemsw
< 1567602103 518067 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567603201 103352 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567603315 338224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567608894 415072 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567609077 110260 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1567609104 118845 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65932&oldid=65889 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+2) 10/* Output */ sing->pl.
> 1567609146 325030 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65933&oldid=65932 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+6) 10/* Input */ an integer->a signed integer
> 1567609249 630837 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65934&oldid=65933 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-12) 10/* Output */
< 1567609329 399096 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally got around to officially releasing and announcing Wagon: https://catseye.tc/article/News.md#our-second-esolang-of-2019-wagon
> 1567609415 794184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65935&oldid=65934 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+64) 10/* Operating stack */
> 1567609440 621124 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65936&oldid=65935 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-1) 10/* Operating stack */ del'd s from bold word
> 1567609763 435293 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65937 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+5237) 10A language by trickbrain26
> 1567609935 831019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65938&oldid=65936 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+194) 10/* Operating content of file */
< 1567610027 142963 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1567610094 42577 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65939&oldid=65938 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+80) 10/* Random value */
< 1567610106 819409 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567610124 282170 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567610353 178258 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567610369 990237 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567610413 990310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65940&oldid=65939 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+332) 10/* Conditional looping */
> 1567610504 175904 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65941&oldid=65940 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+72) 10/* Termination */
> 1567610572 803180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65942&oldid=65941 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-25) 10/* Arithmetic operation */
> 1567610618 335783 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65943&oldid=65942 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+4) 10/* Hello, world! */
> 1567610667 716523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65944&oldid=65943 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+12) 10/* Operating content of file */ group
> 1567611725 403941 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65945&oldid=65894 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+13) 10/* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
< 1567614354 448658 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1567616286 966582 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.15.203.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567616511 987613 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.12.87.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1567616515 216921 :arseniiv__!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567616535 537878 :arseniiv__!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru NICK :arseniiv
> 1567616659 477183 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fusion Tag14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65946&oldid=65494 5* 03Kritixilithos 5* (+2) 10small fix in interpreter
< 1567616691 926484 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@94.41.15.203.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1567616923 494070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nuts14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65947 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+2125) 10Created page with "{{Stub}}  '''Nuts''' is a [[functional]] programming language designed by [https://qiita.com/hogefuga ''@hogefuga'' or '' '' in Qiita], [https://github.com/hoge-fu..."
> 1567617101 338498 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nuts14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65948&oldid=65947 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+29) 10
> 1567617374 979838 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65949&oldid=11550 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+262) 10
< 1567617662 314694 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567617919 5082 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grass14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65950&oldid=65949 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+74) 10
< 1567619481 245740 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567619994 472032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65951&oldid=65937 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+3) 10
< 1567623135 961952 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what can I do with yeast in Powder Toy?
< 1567623159 9839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except growing it and making it die)
> 1567623660 916776 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65952&oldid=65951 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+0) 10
> 1567623693 92416 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65953&oldid=65952 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+0) 10
< 1567624196 456314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567624368 775512 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65954&oldid=65953 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+101) 10
< 1567624754 970060 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567625068 330443 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oo list
< 1567625084 624978 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seem to skip most of the logs these days
< 1567625990 227488 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567627230 292339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what cream or filling do you like to eat spongecake with?
< 1567627230 475767 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: read the rest of the u.s.
> 1567628177 225205 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03DmilkaSTD 5*  10New user account
< 1567629774 655561 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you ride the horse?
< 1567629774 905860 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: looks like it ignores z too? :)
< 1567629825 486002 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567629953 610912 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567630002 459784 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1567630091 300463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it only ignores you
> 1567630274 882852 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65955 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+3860) 10New language
< 1567630322 902017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oo erjan
> 1567630353 457569 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65956&oldid=65899 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+56) 10
> 1567630420 712180 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65957&oldid=65898 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+56) 10Add new language
< 1567631130 98980 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf
< 1567631178 408088 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567631190 377034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w
< 1567631193 734421 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:01//01 is an abbreviation that 01 understands. \ newline//Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness. \  //  is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters. \ prography//Prography is the art of turning computational algorithms into something totally incomprehensible to anyone whose brain isn't made of silicon and arsenic. \ haskell'//Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \   arising from a use of implicit par
< 1567631195 425531 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1567631196 478504 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:ameter `?haskell'
> 1567631371 392348 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65958&oldid=65955 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-3) 10
< 1567633376 447289 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567634818 760541 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567634905 583045 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567635235 528971 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567636278 474736 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567636420 386236 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567637422 966359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567638276 167739 :stux-!stux@cosmo.lunarshells.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567638418 4767 :stux|away!stux@2a01:270:2050:1337::1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567638509 623731 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcfdvrkeopgiegyg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567638583 915518 :tramplefoot!~Tramplefo@78.184.171.141 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567638753 221479 :tramplefoot!~Tramplefo@78.184.171.141 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567638784 66670 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567639919 358907 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567639942 333623 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone like this: https://paste.ee/p/W69OZ ?
< 1567640185 478431 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need advice about totem, and i hate that i don't know about any other chat rooms
< 1567640317 641838 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1567640428 542671 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567640625 449974 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo__ 
< 1567640637 255209 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Lykaina 
< 1567640738 183197 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina, is the "loop nesting memory" a stack? Which instructions use it?
< 1567640738 846496 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you tell me how to find out if this languge i made is esoteric enough to be talked about here?
< 1567640760 254793 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a stack, i guess
< 1567640794 808172 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap...forgot to paste the interpreter's source code
< 1567640837 333981 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it allows loops to work
< 1567640855 181501 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how much interest it would gather, but I think this language qualifies.
< 1567640859 643908 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :by storing program file positions
< 1567641053 616934 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/OKVD1
< 1567641209 670235 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i get nudge and desparate at times
< 1567641328 140935 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just figured out subroutines
< 1567641407 504218 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: the nesting memory is used by codes N, O, P, and Q
< 1567641516 328536 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. I would suggest the spec stating that, I think?
< 1567641518 879960 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK soon
< 1567641622 691598 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :k
< 1567642137 790547 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1567642207 211892 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567643855 923558 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :any other comments about the specs before i re-paste?
< 1567644147 304666 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/tloTh updated repaste post Sgeo__'s suggestions...
< 1567644207 186285 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :replaces paste from 19:32:22 edt
< 1567646206 231518 :strangleloop!63cb90bb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.99.203.144.187 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567646491 212029 :strangleloop!63cb90bb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.99.203.144.187 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567646913 998630 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567647223 857922 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65959&oldid=65957 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (+15) 10/* T */
> 1567647293 69254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trickcode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65960&oldid=65954 5* 03Trickbrain26 5* (-54) 10
< 1567647403 12159 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/Qek9M replaces the source code paste
> 1567647613 735975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lazy evaluation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65961&oldid=49764 5* 03CatIsFluffy 5* (+14) 10
< 1567647654 241260 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/tloTh information and a sample program is here
< 1567648298 116020 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina, consider adding it to the Esolangs wiki? (If you're willing to put into public domain). I think people often discuss languages themselves on the talk pages
< 1567648340 509187 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you don't want to put into public domain, then making a page and linking should be fine)
< 1567648355 502807 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :not put the interpreter into public domain when i'm still improving the software
< 1567648386 377034 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I'm not
< 1567648399 406133 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I'm not putting
< 1567648445 131349 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language however...
< 1567648549 186301 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i'm ready
< 1567648598 349691 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to see what features i can squeeze in
< 1567649354 433802 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blah, just discovered that in 2018, my https://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-RLE was replaced with a more general discussion. I'm not sure how to feel about this, I felt like "BF-RLE" named a specific encoding
< 1567649511 583270 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This breaks zzo38's https://esolangs.org/wiki/GrainFimple spec unless GrainFimple's spec is updated to more precisely describe what is meant by BF-RLE
< 1567650165 848594 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1567650214 525033 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65962&oldid=65915 5* 03Toel F 5* (+215) 10/* Introductions */
> 1567650223 212982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Troll Online14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65963 5* 03Toel F 5* (+404) 10Created page with "Troll Online is a programming language builded in c#. It can connect to internet. Documentation, interpreter and the source are in this github repository: https://github.com/t..."
> 1567650387 17924 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65964&oldid=65959 5* 03Toel F 5* (+19) 10
> 1567650647 595670 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65965&oldid=65929 5* 03Toel F 5* (+55) 10
> 1567650737 811795 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65966&oldid=65965 5* 03Toel F 5* (+2) 10
< 1567652559 614212 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567653818 375058 :stux-!stux@cosmo.lunarshells.com QUIT :Quit: Aloha!
< 1567653832 598194 :stux|away!stux@2a01:270:2050:1337::1 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567655393 621968 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Troll Online14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65967&oldid=65963 5* 03Toel F 5* (+1) 10
< 1567656497 264123 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567657692 397615 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcfdvrkeopgiegyg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
> 1567663848 337335 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Euphoria 5*  10New user account
< 1567664695 711966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this?
< 1567664729 106536 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hi kmc
< 1567664735 982905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-interactive zero-knowledge proofs are tg
< 1567664777 82600 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567664790 524120 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-interactive non-zero-knowledge non-proofs
< 1567664850 587013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-interactive hugs
< 1567664953 308688 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer interactive hugs I think
< 1567665018 691160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too
< 1567665022 391787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want an interactive hug
< 1567665050 986563 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would like
< 1567667885 216933 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567669703 389617 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567671691 237995 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567671704 208729 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Client Quit
< 1567673127 247920 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567673308 794951 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567675807 203554 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567675893 953128 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://paste.ee/p/FTqsX fixed typos in license and added copyright notice for spec notes + samples
< 1567677925 374403 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: sort of an esoteric computer architecture plus assembler?  Do feel free to make an article on the wiki linking to it!
< 1567678019 328203 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tg?
< 1567681041 923033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tg
< 1567681043 456826 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
< 1567681053 170002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this entry may be less useful than you might expect
< 1567681065 414055 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that applies to most wisdom entries
< 1567681091 488433 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is way more useful than the monad one
< 1567681095 253255 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monad
< 1567681096 498081 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
< 1567681100 376843 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right
< 1567682355 213495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kittegory
< 1567682356 439151 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A kittegory is just a small category.
< 1567683308 234212 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567684091 993312 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lcjmjimeotzbksie JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567684121 928147 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567685216 567641 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1567685249 91898 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567690151 627908 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> mconcat [\n -> [n+1], \n -> [n-1,n*2]] 4
< 1567690154 233886 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [5,3,8]
< 1567690338 967670 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (\n -> mconcat [[n+1], [n-1,n*2]]) 4
< 1567690341 126962 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [5,3,8]
< 1567691471 541603 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \x -> foldl (.) id (reverse x) []
< 1567691471 840921 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (foldl (.) id . reverse) []
> 1567692167 7567 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Garbage14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65968&oldid=63882 5* 03A 5* (-16) 10/* Syntax */
> 1567692341 889693 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Binary to unary conversion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65969 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+398) 10Asking for a general Unary to Binary conversion algorithm.
< 1567692347 260027 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567692628 363520 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1567693100 618297 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trash14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65970 5* 03A 5* (+1921) 10Created page with "[[Trash]] is an even simpler [[esoteric programming language]] that is designed to fullfill the CGCC definition of a programming language. ==Syntax== It is very simple (even s..."
> 1567693182 480085 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trash14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65971&oldid=65970 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10Typo
< 1567694028 407196 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1567694824 391404 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lazy evaluation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65972&oldid=65961 5* 03A 5* (+85) 10Not yet.
> 1567695054 33552 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lazy evaluation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65973&oldid=65972 5* 03A 5* (+218) 10
> 1567695233 869745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lazy evaluation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65974&oldid=65973 5* 03A 5* (+123) 10
< 1567695363 786968 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently working on adding bitwise arithmatic
< 1567695483 297037 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1567695548 4747 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :vote for name: totem vs echidna
< 1567695575 121213 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echidna
> 1567695618 605427 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lazy evaluation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65975&oldid=65974 5* 03A 5* (+308) 10
< 1567695823 253187 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION votes for Echidna
< 1567696060 247215 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567696724 739480 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/spec_notes.pdf
< 1567696736 549809 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that good?
< 1567696990 201030 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which number does this Befunge code output: 9184611256>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
< 1567697024 61085 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know wtf the captcha is talking about as well as the answer
< 1567697084 469231 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: 9504611032>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
< 1567697114 890314 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: have you tried trying to find a befunge interpreter?
< 1567697128 293467 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567697132 421651 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know where to find one
< 1567697180 555691 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to register on the wiki
< 1567697287 774260 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you try using a search engine such as Google to find a befunge interpreter?
< 1567697386 935946 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's one on this channel as well? 
< 1567697449 311266 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! befunge "olleh">:#,_@
< 1567697450 367880 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1567697480 657884 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! befunge 9504611032>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
< 1567697481 352396 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :100512662
> 1567697500 523013 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Lykaina 5*  10New user account
< 1567697550 827191 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty fizzie
< 1567697553 839843 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge article's "External resources" section also has a lot of interpreters, including at least two online ones.
< 1567697582 619904 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the weirdist captcha i have ever seen
< 1567697595 216494 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've had issues with spammers.
< 1567697621 288910 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be in Brainfuck, which I guess was a little more approachable? 
< 1567697649 859846 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And before/after that it was a quiz on languages.
< 1567697697 308463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of those were defeated; I think we're maybe assuming by just using humans (to which the current one is vulnerable as well), since it seems unlikely anyone wrote custom code for solving the Brainfuck one, for a website this unpopular.
> 1567697735 927520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65976&oldid=65962 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+166) 10/* Introductions */
< 1567697756 580443 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That introduction requirement is another anti-spam barrier.)
> 1567697927 421336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65977 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+76) 10Adding a placeholder for my language.
> 1567698060 88261 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65978&oldid=65964 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+14) 10/* E */  adding Echidna to language list.
< 1567698087 689796 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :good?
> 1567698305 981255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65979&oldid=65977 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+90) 10adding a link for current information
< 1567698482 979298 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb shower
> 1567698988 781869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Binary to unary conversion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65980&oldid=65969 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+1055) 10Adding an example of bounded Unary to Binary converter
< 1567699266 122345 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1567699709 258395 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567700179 241087 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567700193 166656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the current captcha, and I could solve it without an interpreter
< 1567700218 842279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out what the loop does, it's like making a base 9 number from those digits but there was some little twist 
< 1567700237 696226 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a brainfuck one would be harder
< 1567700245 209962 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably need an actual interpreter for it
> 1567700519 234956 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Binary to unary conversion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65981&oldid=65980 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (-504) 10Improving the example of bounded Unary to Binary converter
> 1567700649 854523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Binary to unary conversion14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65982&oldid=65981 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+6) 10Adding boldface formatting
< 1567700653 648737 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg
< 1567700683 243623 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567701628 291707 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567703117 281873 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: FWIW, the brainfuck one wasn't that bad. I think it produced a random string of the alphabet {a, b, c, d} by first forming the constant `a`, then having a sequence of +s, -s and .s with no loops.
< 1567703275 197398 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's a base 9 number except with 9 as a sentinel value and the digits backwards because of the stack.
< 1567703290 412279 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` dc -e '9i 230116405p'
< 1567703291 836627 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :100512662
< 1567704136 264149 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok, that would work
< 1567704179 446808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but does it subtract 9 from each digit before interpreting it in base 9?
< 1567704223 55691 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Well, technically yes, but only for the 'if' condition on whether the digit was 9.
< 1567704309 238789 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flattened out, the relevant snippet is :9-_ aka dup-nine-minus-if; so the stack will have [x x-9] at the _ (where x is the original digit), the _ pops off the x-9 and the rest (\9*+) multiplies the accumulator by 9 and adds x to it.
< 1567704351 847068 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's reusing the 9 both for the 9-_ condition (when going left-to-right) and for the 9* of the accumulator (when going right-to-left).
< 1567704387 633324 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does the ending with the dollar sign do?
< 1567704408 101237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That just drops off the extra 9.
< 1567704450 31471 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The full stack at the if is [acc digit digit-9], the _ pops off digit-9 and the $ pops off digit (which in this case must've been 9, since digit-9 was zero) so that . prints the accumulator.
< 1567704461 496086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, let me look at the befunge rules, I don't remmeber them
< 1567704504 340530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, makes sense
< 1567704524 316352 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also uses one of the implicit infinite number of 0s under the bottom of the stack as the initial accumulator value.
< 1567704544 725920 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or does it. I guess it doesn't.
< 1567704560 966463 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no, I confused myself. Of course it doesn't, it would hit that sentinel.
< 1567704566 110582 :howlands!gilesgate@sdf-eu.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567704588 155781 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that the last digit (the 2 there) is considered the initial accumulator, not one of the base-9 digits, arguably.
< 1567704658 101587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that looks about right
< 1567704679 201276 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 9 #. 8 4 6 1 1 2 5 6
< 1567704680 65330 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 40751313
< 1567704693 47268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, backwards
< 1567704695 711173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 9 #. |. 8 4 6 1 1 2 5 6
< 1567704696 426251 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 31480937
< 1567704709 831091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 9 #. |. 5 0 4 6 1 1 0 3 2
< 1567704710 500661 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 100512662
< 1567704911 789995 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turns out the Brainfuck variant was mostly as I described, except with a bigger alphabet. It starts with a common initial prefix that loads 100 'd' (as 10*10), then generates a random sequence of X.X.X.X.X.X.X.X. where each of the Xs is uniformly randomly either "", "+" or "-", except the + or - is omitted if that would make the value less than 97 'a' or more than 122 'z'.
< 1567704934 262050 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still pretty prone to creating strings from the beginning of the alphabet, since it starts from 'd' and does a random walk with a maximum step size of 1.
< 1567704952 58761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567704956 639300 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in fact it can never reach 'z' because the longest sequence is 16.
< 1567707611 669842 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567708834 174850 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has Dr. Seuss ever been involved in any lawsuits?
< 1567708907 386003 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems at least his estate was https://boingboing.net/2019/03/14/fair-use-vs-seuss.html
< 1567709222 219594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh so some people got to say "Dr. Seuss sues [...]" :)
> 1567710045 629372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Troll Online14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65983&oldid=65967 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+3) 10Your page might suck,  but i converted the example text to headings.
> 1567710188 674836 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65984&oldid=65966 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+39) 10/* PUBERTY */
> 1567710540 510658 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Grid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65985&oldid=65920 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+122) 10Corrected the algorithm description
< 1567711074 659504 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lcjmjimeotzbksie QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567711868 481872 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567712009 803350 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unified HQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65986&oldid=59395 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+28) 10
> 1567712046 726850 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Unified HQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65987&oldid=65986 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+26) 10
< 1567714938 919557 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1567715106 990140 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567715253 954528 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567715300 12379 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkcjpdwjpkgizdmq JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567715403 146827 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must apoligize for misleading everybody into thinking ops L and M in Echidna were functioning. In reality, I haven't even designed the code for those, much less written them.
< 1567715460 498375 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm working on it
< 1567715635 522063 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the input. i know the intended output
< 1567716143 680451 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is done
< 1567716155 879018 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but untested
< 1567716421 277828 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567716543 763109 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567716933 681600 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for M now
< 1567717480 253526 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :M isn't working right...
< 1567717638 370095 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither is L
< 1567718136 356779 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when does 0xff6a == 0xffb5?
< 1567718143 53142 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr
< 1567718450 201631 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0xAAAA xor 0x5555 = 0xFFFE ?
< 1567718705 466438 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0xFFFF AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFE ?
< 1567718718 465939 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :something weird is going on
< 1567718849 981031 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567718978 117608 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :0xFFFF AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFE, 0xFFFE AND 0xFFFF = 0xFFFC ? where's the bug? I demand you show me, codeblocks
< 1567719022 693010 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan 
< 1567719248 775688 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed operation M
< 1567719425 140957 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and L
< 1567719574 231643 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's two letters down
< 1567719790 434146 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567719832 819676 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was shifting the output to the left by 1 too much
< 1567720037 245793 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :updated Echidna's documentation file
< 1567720164 946637 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a self-hosted pdf on the Echidna page. Not ready to be public domain.
< 1567720844 132933 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about morphism composition notations and about (more or less natural) notations for application of a linear operator or its adjoint to a (co)vector and found out I think a very funny thing
< 1567721019 927717 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose A: U → V, B: V → W, v ∈ U, f ∈ W*, then if we agree to write Av for the application of A to v, it’s for a couple of reasons (regarding left and right modules, and also matrix notation) natural to write fB* for the application of B* to f. Now,
< 1567721142 568130 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can end with * altogether (we have a type system to back us!) and write fB. Then we can write fBAv, for example. And now notice that BA here can denote both B <<< A and B* >>> A*
< 1567721165 199602 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this   is   fun
< 1567721338 742617 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not here, but standalone also. But invoking fBAv beforehand could appeal for this notation choice
< 1567721385 996694 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it reminds me of lenses now, and not without a reason)
< 1567721398 974482 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye I hope this was interesting
> 1567721518 897384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65988&oldid=65979 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+137) 10adding a link for an interpreter.
< 1567721612 481059 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone look at what i linked about echidna and help me figure out what kind of esolang it is?
< 1567721648 183271 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to have a description on there at least.
< 1567721692 910424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567721701 259442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like  an assembly language to me
< 1567721702 862085 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 
< 1567721709 903758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567721860 212391 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567721952 989602 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
> 1567722202 384183 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65989&oldid=65988 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+106) 10a little description
< 1567724468 72729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: so are the comparison, divide, modulus and shift right arithmetic instruction unsigned ones, and is there no signed less than instruction?
< 1567724507 877744 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: and are those bitwise instructions the only way to do an indirect load (as opposed to an indirect store, for which you have a specific instruction)? that will lead to a lot of use of those bitwise thingies with redundant arguments I think
< 1567724562 932878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bit odd that indirect load works that way, but you seem to allow immediate operands basically everywhere
< 1567724568 950229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a strange instruction set
< 1567724569 397899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you just reminded me of the "load data by rotating it ten times" trick that's sometimes used in Malbolge
< 1567724718 205844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: also I find the spec a bit hard to read and unclear, but it's not as bad as some of the things we see on the wiki
< 1567724718 457437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Did you go to the thing?
< 1567724737 67838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what thing?
< 1567724752 464206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://events.cs.bham.ac.uk/syco/strings3-syco5/
< 1567724762 908314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567724776 948971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not all that interested in string diagrams
< 1567724781 362680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567724785 109667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm fairly busy with other things at work
< 1567724795 962438 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what about compositional structures?
< 1567724798 709885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway that makes sense.
< 1567724801 919422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been known to go to locally hosted conferences that I'm only tangentially interested in, but not this time
< 1567724932 122966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only went to locally hosted conferences where I was actually at least somewhat interested in the topic at the time, but of course within conferences I listened to talks in which I'm not too interested, if there isn't a better talk available in another track, 
< 1567724960 627850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I definitely went to PhD dissertations where I wasn't interested in the topic, because those are social events for meeting friends and the thesis topic doesn't matter
< 1567725180 306012 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PhD defences/vivas aren't public in the UK (I know this differs between countries)
< 1567725185 747922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the candidate and the examiners
< 1567725190 311021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the...
< 1567725192 250956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's odd
< 1567725200 839078 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're always public here, they have to be
< 1567725210 362531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they'd be hard to watch because the examiners are supposed to have learned everything from the PhD thesis already
< 1567725219 893844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I think there may be closed ones if they're like connected to classified military stuff
< 1567725226 740075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they jump straight into asking technical questions about it, there'd basically be no context for anyone else
< 1567725290 55923 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is there a formal celebration open to public after, or do the graduates skip right to the pub run?
< 1567725295 797888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the argument in wanting the candidate to give a presentation on the topic of their PhD and defend that, I guess it comes down to whether it's more important to defend the principle or the details
< 1567725324 917004 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't get the verdict right away, it comes by post a few weeks later after the examiners have discussed, and is normally several pages full of things they're concerned about and want correcting
< 1567725345 589262 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you make the corrections and resubmit
< 1567725364 473463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, there is a closed part within the public defense, namely the part after all the questions when the committee discuss their decision, and for that part everyone else is ordered out of the room
< 1567725371 572798 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they're finally happy you get told you're accepted, and then there are mass graduation ceremonies you can go to if you want a big official celebration
< 1567725376 618121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I describe this in a comment, let me find the link
< 1567725392 628401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the UK method is pretty good at avoiding, say, fallacious proofs
< 1567725406 589178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if it's unclear how much effort they'll take to fiix
< 1567725461 711682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the UK still do snake fights?
< 1567725513 578493 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the UK, I'm a bit confusil about what's going on with parliament nowadays.
< 1567725520 291219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea; I have a suspicion they'd be illegal, which doesn't mean they wouldn't happen but does mean I'd be unlikely to be aware of them if they did
< 1567725520 552277 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2015-12.html%23d.2015-12-05.2340#comment-22088
< 1567725552 665397 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean mandatory snake fights after your thesis defense.
< 1567725561 678746 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't have one of those
< 1567725563 208825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not?
< 1567725577 295885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google snake fight thesis defense
< 1567725578 74770 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/faq-the-snake-fight-portion-of-your-thesis-defense
< 1567725609 626007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: members of the committee get the thesis well in advance, suppoedly read it and understand it, and even send questions to the candidate at least a few days before the defense,
< 1567725629 755003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for what's going on in parliament, right now nothing, Commons won't be back until Monday, Lords are asleep but will probably be approving the EUWA #6 tomorrow (they agreed to meet on Friday, which they normally don't, to get enough time to approve it)
< 1567725654 274485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's happened over the past couple of days is more interesting
< 1567725690 244561 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: about the parliament, I think because of conflicting promises, they have to sarifice two or three prime ministers every year, so that they can remain in the EU but have someone take the blame for the government not keeping their promise of exiting the EU
< 1567725690 628501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically there's a new prime minister (because the old prime minister resigned, the new prime minister is appointed by the same party that the old one came from)
< 1567725739 469052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the prime minister part, what I don't understand is in what way the queen was involved
< 1567725749 820477 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567725762 805825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567725766 14092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we don't have mandatory snake fights for PhD defenses here either
< 1567725780 408132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Odd. Maybe it's an American tradition.
< 1567725782 386692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is some concern among MPs that he will attempt to leave the EU with no agreements in place, which became much greater when he announced that parliament would be prorogued (basically shut down) until mid-October, when there might not be time to agree on a course of action
< 1567725842 527046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Finnish thesis defence has a /lectio præcursoria/ in the front, and IIRC it's typically the only part done in Finnish (because normally the opponents are from abroad, and the thesis is in English) and I think it's mostly there so that the candidate's family has something for them as well.
< 1567725843 705053 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that some people fight snakes, because the less formal part of the celebration afterwards usually involves heavy drinking, but I'm quite sure it's not mandatory
< 1567725861 602867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the snake fight is not mandatory that is, the heavy drinking is
< 1567725899 332393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while ago, because some of the Prime Minster's competitors in the (Conservative Party-internal) leadership debate had threatened to shut down parliament to prevent them interfering with Conservative plans for Brexit, a Northern Ireland-related bill got amended to force regular updates in Parliament on the situation in Northern Ireland, purely for the side effect of forcing Parliament to be open whilst not being offtopic
< 1567725909 667842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why Parliament can't be shut down until beyond mid-October
< 1567725958 671947 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to one thesis examination while in Leuven for a while, and all the questioning part was in Flemish, which made it a little hard to follow for me.
< 1567725964 804547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the prorogation doesn't start until next week, and there's a clear majority among Members of Parliament (and Members of the House of Lords) that we shouldn't leave the EU without an agreement in place as to how it's done
< 1567725973 864390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm, that FAQ says it can involve both venomous snakes and snakes with physical attacks
< 1567726023 886314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they've been trying to rush through an emergency law to prevent it happening (known the European Union (Withrdawal) Act No. 6), and the Government (i.e. the Prime Minister + allies) have been trying to stop them
< 1567726093 108562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that sufficiently many MPs in the Conservative Party, together with almost all the MPs outside, disagree with the Prime Minister; this lead to some (~20) Conservatives voting against party line in order to get the EUWA #6 through, despite the Prime Minister threatening to throw them out of the party
< 1567726100 334808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did the conservative party kick out all the people who voted against the act?
< 1567726118 441778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! and as a result they no longer have a majority, i.e. they have less than half of the MPs even if you count allies
< 1567726120 850834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: would this be a normal summer break of the parliament, or a special break?
< 1567726130 697232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We had a "Brexit info" email at work for all UK employees today. The email just said the situation is "fluid" and that there's nothing new to report.
< 1567726134 803881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: we just had our normal summer break (it ended on Tuesday)
< 1567726144 161812 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I understood they lost their majority but I wasn't sure whether they'd left themselves or were kicked out.
< 1567726150 987329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's normally a small break over October, this is theoretically that break but it's been made way longer
< 1567726163 353309 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they lost the majority even before the rebel alliance got kicked out? 
< 1567726166 265877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: one left of their own accord, the others were kcked out
< 1567726171 333348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know one person joined the liberal democrats but the rest (including the father of the house?) are now just independent?
< 1567726172 15642 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of that one defection, right.
< 1567726188 640805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest are independent unless or until they join a party or form a new party
< 1567726219 914993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think many of them are planning to be independent until the next election and then leave politics (some want to stay but may have problems being elected with the Conservatives running against them)
< 1567726227 639597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the party kicks out their members, then don't they get replaced by other people on the party's list?
< 1567726236 400438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, we elect MPs not parties
< 1567726239 542372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for parliament seats that is
< 1567726242 313808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567726254 143715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting rid of an MP is almost impossible, there are only two ways
< 1567726292 924703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange
< 1567726301 949367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) if the MP is convicted of a sufficiently serious crime, then a petition of 10% of their constituents can force a new election (but they can run for the election if they want to; so far this has proven to be a bad idea but it hasn't stopped some MPs trying)
< 1567726321 422077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) MPs automatically get fired if they accept money from the Queen
< 1567726342 803478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there also a new MP if the old one dies?
< 1567726354 745727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, yes, but I wouldn't recommend killing MPs
< 1567726370 466224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have to be killed
< 1567726371 319502 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :point b) here is mostly used as a loophole for MPs to voluntarily step down, because they aren't legally allowed to resign; the Queen maintains a couple of useless jobs purely for the purpose of hiring MPs that want to resign
< 1567726372 945780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can die otherwise
< 1567726414 109694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is a job hunting down outlaws in the Chiltern Hills, which became irrelevant ages ago because a) we have police and b) outlaws don't really exist as a concept any more
< 1567726420 372761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's vacant execept when an MP needs to resign
< 1567726431 84306 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not theoretical, because Antall József died while he was minister-president, and got replaced by a different minister-president because he died
< 1567726446 914206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. That's pretty good.
< 1567726456 94153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
< 1567726459 797942 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's indeed nice
< 1567726470 302116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the Commons passed through all the stages of the EUWA #6 in a single day, so now the Lords have to confirm it
< 1567726471 350622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, we have had positions just to pay people, without a real job
< 1567726507 658626 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an attempted filibuster but the Lords have a huge majority against the Prime Minister's position, so the filibusterers gave up at about 1:30am
< 1567726522 670000 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They submitted 100 amedments to the bill, right?
< 1567726537 727523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the opposition Lords were taking it seriously, though; they had a rota set up, and brought lots of food, sleeping bags, etc. to the House of Lords to make sure they could outlast their much smaller number of political opponents)
< 1567726539 76960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1567726542 942550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sl a
< 1567726545 850766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they give up on them?
< 1567726555 299835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*so an amendment can be dealt with in a few seconds if there's no real support or no real opposition to it
< 1567726572 24372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :show of hands or voice vote, move on
< 1567726587 904207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"opposition lords" means opposed to the majority in the house of lords, or opposed to the government?
< 1567726589 203846 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for a filibuster to work, you need sufficiently many Lords on your side that the verdict is unclear
< 1567726596 27934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: opposed to the government
< 1567726602 826238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you don't elect parties, then how are the members of the parliament chosen?
< 1567726626 18270 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the lower house at least
< 1567726639 311990 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, the Lords have a built in Conservative majority because they move so slowly, but (because they move slowly and the Conservatives have changed position rapidly recently) the Conservatives in the Lords are mostly opposed to the Prime Minister
< 1567726655 349975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of bizarre that filibusters are still a thing that nominally works, rather than being treated as bad faith.
< 1567726661 919113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: basically we get a list of candidates for each constituency; if you're standing for a party that's listed on the ballot for information
< 1567726710 214683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and delegates from constituencies fill all places in the lower chamber?
< 1567726723 271208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the UK version works fairly well I think? a) it only works in the Lords, not the Commons, and the Lords can't block a bill indefinitely, only delay it; b) it lets a really determined minority delay a bill for a while but you have to keep talking / keep voting / etc. so if the minority is too small you won't have the stamina, and if they aren't committed enough they won't bother
< 1567726745 898843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the smaller the minority filibustering, the less effort it'll take from the majority to break the filibuster, as their anti-filibuster rota will be easy to set up)
< 1567726752 986028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right
< 1567726776 434443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think the US has some such system too
< 1567726786 656094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they have states, so it makes more sense
< 1567726842 770533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the US senate it seems that people are slowly changing the rules to get rid of filibusters in various contexts.
< 1567726853 440073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the filibuster in this circumstance was pretty unique as the Lords need to get the EUWA #6 through before Parliament gets prorogued, which could happen on Monday (the prorogation order was vague as to the exact date, but it's some time next week)
< 1567726885 539985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the prorogation get delayed while people are actively filibustering?
< 1567726915 265422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect the US congress is more pathological than the UK system.
< 1567726920 943152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they can keep up for that long, that is, which isn't easy
< 1567726933 166332 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the pro-Government minority would only have to last a few days, but a) they were too small and b) they may have stopped due to optics (also, possibly there was a deal brokered between the two sides, but IIRC people are denying it)
< 1567726940 639540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, the date's absolute
< 1567726959 377347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567726965 492365 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's nominally done by the monarch anyway, right? 
< 1567726977 81899 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, but she has to follow the advice of the Prime Minister
< 1567727011 763684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, "has to"; it's unlikely that the monarchy would dare break that particular convention, but laws don't technically apply to them, so in theory the Queen could do pretty much any thing
< 1567727069 280461 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of funny how Borris (our local nickname) says the prorogation has nothing to do with Brexit, and how there's plenty of time to talk about Brexit when it's over.
< 1567727086 235328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"plenty of time" = about 2 weeks
< 1567727094 346718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't enough to implement most suggested solutions
< 1567727100 366121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. 2 weeks isn't enough time to hold an election
< 1567727173 506726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shachaf: on the subject of elections, the prime minister attempted to call one after losing the EUWA #6 vote, but didn't have the votes even to do that; the opposition want to get EUWA #6 through first before calling an election, due to potential issues like using the election to dissolve Parliament for the /rest/ of the time before October 31…)
< 1567727212 488602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is calling general elections common?
< 1567727246 946205 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's odd
< 1567727289 75747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be that the prime minister could call elections unilaterally, and would do so when they thought they had the best chance of their party being re-elected / gaining a larger majority
< 1567727327 899067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :electing a prime minister directly seems such an odd thing to do, exactly because it can get you into these strange situations where their government can't function because they don't have the support of the parliament
< 1567727329 505129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the Liberal Democrat / Conservative coalition government happened, and the Liberal Democrats were concerned that the Conservatives would just call an election as soon as they thought they could get rid of the Lib Dems
< 1567727370 811056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as part of the "price" for the coalition, the Lib Dems passed a law that made it almost impossible to call an election unless a) everyone agreed on it or b) the Prime Minister lost their majority
< 1567727414 198801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, b) has actually happened, but the opposition are delaying the official no-confidence vote (that tests if a majority exists) until after EUWA #6 goes through
< 1567727422 839256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1567727429 182240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it makes more sense that way
< 1567727453 832799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everyone knows that the Prime Minister has lost their majority but it hasn't officially been tested, so they're still notionally in charge for the time being
< 1567727469 463318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's also why they need the filibuster?
< 1567727493 918766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the filibuster was an attempt to prevent EUWA #6 passing, but it's already failed
< 1567727504 395861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so EUWA #6 is quite likely to pass some time tomorrow
< 1567727516 522616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also odd: this one/two/three-line whip thing, which apparently is the number of times the instruction is underlined.
< 1567727530 284744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1567727536 816797 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also zero, but that's equivalent to not whipping at all
< 1567727537 525553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got a charmingly quaint parliamentary system.
< 1567727574 709399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual numbers of lines aren't really defined
< 1567727576 547799 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably that's what happens when you've had one so long.)
< 1567727603 381181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conservative MPs ignored three-line whips under Theresa May quite frequently and nothing happened to them, probably because she'd lost control of the party (and ended up having to resign)
< 1567727649 313662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, in Boris Johnson's first vote, he threatened to expel anyone from the party who voted against it, and then actually did, but given the numbers he's probably /also/ lost control of (a different subset of) the party
< 1567727746 770895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so have the leaders of those who were expelled from the party started three new parties, each of them claiming to be the one true successor to the conservative party, which has lost its, uh, approval of the people or whatever fancy phrase they use
< 1567727761 170080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's how parties tend to die here
< 1567727800 362342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there was a party of breakaway MPs (and technically still is), who have changed their name at least twice since and have lost many MPs
< 1567727804 804384 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not doing too well
< 1567727821 747761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how Orbán got his continued rule basically, because every other significant party fell apart that way
< 1567727825 433529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the people expelled from the Conservatives recently are mostly still independents, but that's not surprising given how recent it was
< 1567727853 141007 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :might take some more months I guess
< 1567727874 408814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several MPs who have defected from Conservatives or Labour over Brexit have since joined the LIberal Democrats (traditional third party; the Scottish National Party are larger but don't get any real support outside Scotland)
< 1567727894 608039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1567727902 655453 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also calling back to the thesis discussion, in Finland actually the bit that keeps things free of errors and the quality bar high enough is the "preliminary examination", which is done offline, takes some weeks, and all but guarantees that everyone who gets to the public examination stage will pass it.
< 1567727924 456574 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is there a mandatory fight with a snake?
< 1567727938 55073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right, the preliminary examination stage is basically the entire thing for us
< 1567727976 406220 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that after it, the corrections period can be very long (the length depends on how many corrections there are and how large they are, but is normally 3 or 6 months if the thesis is well-received, more if it has major problems)
< 1567727981 491787 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No, Finland isn't that known for snakes. We've got just that one poisonous one.
< 1567728000 125964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: do they fight some other animal then?
< 1567728144 939212 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. For us, the preliminary examination result is a statement that either you can defend as-is (pretty rare), requires minor revisions (most common; something you can do in a few weeks and doesn't need a full recheck) or requires major revisions (expected to take months, needs to be resubmitted for a full re-examination).
< 1567728169 977770 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, pretty similar as how journal paper reviews go.
< 1567728183 273673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one is fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiyz1IYEFtI  marathon speedrun of a Game Boy Advance game, the problem being that the game requires motion controls, but on that console, recording the video output and motion controls are hard to do at the same time
< 1567728310 329300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: here it's anywhere from "no corrections" (never happens in practice), "minor corrections" (3 months, a very common result, it's what my PhD had), "major corrections" (6 months, situations where the corrections may require new maths), "resubmit" (1 year, it means serious problems with the original but they'll give you another chance), equivalents of all those for a lesser degree ("this isn't PhD-worthy but it is worth a Masters' degree"), and 
< 1567728311 800053 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :outright rejection
< 1567728424 579874 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :How commonly do PhD candidates not already have a Masters' degree?
< 1567728430 929113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there one for greater degrees too, where the thesis is so impressed they decided that the candidate is chosen to become dictator for life on the spot?
< 1567728448 945879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd guess ones who come from the US might not have one
< 1567728456 34216 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :their system is weird
< 1567728482 191382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well there's nothing preventing you getting /two/ Masters' degrees, although that might not be a preferred outcome
< 1567728517 892564 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but here too a master's degree is technically not a requirement for the thesis, you only need it in practice because that's the only way you can get a scholarship that lets you do research and study to be able to write a thesis
< 1567728532 933678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Transportation for life, and then to be fined forty pound.
< 1567728560 294609 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but they can't just award a master's degree, right? they can only award the thesis part, while the candidate would need to satisfy all the other requirements too
< 1567728578 347252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Masters by research" is a recognised qualification, that can be done off just a single thesis
< 1567728590 436031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, should I go to graduate school?
< 1567728596 504182 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PhD thesis would in theory qualify for it but normally you'd want the PhD instead
< 1567728609 787205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: where are you? the US? probably not, you're highly likely to be overcharged
< 1567728626 711374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://www.xkcd.com/498/
< 1567728664 730800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you have a masters?
< 1567728686 19040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd was pretty different back then
< 1567728697 128623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm in the US but presumably I could go anywhere.
< 1567728704 868818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't.
< 1567728712 498389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: would you like to get a job for which a PhD degree is a strong advantage, which are mostly jobs at a university or at state-sponsored research institutes?
< 1567728735 319984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know.
< 1567728759 340779 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. I recommend reading SMBC, which is still similar to what xkcd used to be like in its classic era
< 1567728763 232322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another fact is that I don't have a bachelor's degree.
< 1567728776 495871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only more colorful
< 1567728812 909372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that part is easier to fix
< 1567728818 441152 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1567728827 43361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it?
< 1567728837 989407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's easier to get a bachelors degree than a masters degree
< 1567728859 146881 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't really like old xkcd; I don't normally like new xkcd either but sometimes it's very good
< 1567728876 431124 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which of the new ones do you like?
< 1567728930 928275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one before the current one was fairly good
< 1567728938 506787 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one that's slightly older that was better but I can't remember which one
< 1567728959 690092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Game Show? dunno, I don't much like that one
< 1567728976 999146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, https://xkcd.com/2189/ is very good
< 1567728990 493257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd is mostly observational humour, so I mostly enjoy it when the observation is interesting / thought-provoking
< 1567729008 323545 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not my style either, but ok
< 1567729020 379575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2189 that is
< 1567729028 635425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :observational humor may be fine 
< 1567729035 315266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, the set of xkcds we like is possibly disjoint
< 1567729040 60368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that that's necessarily a problem
< 1567729060 278366 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't claim that all the new ones are bad, I just prefer the classic ones in average
< 1567729075 54224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still do look at every new xkcd, I haven't stopped looking
< 1567729087 200113 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but prefer other comics now
< 1567729098 831611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, part of that is other comics having become better
< 1567729142 262371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Dennis Skinner everyone's favorite MP?
< 1567729164 430937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's quite some variety in favourite MPs
< 1567729176 826893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people's favourite MP is the one representing their own constituency, of course
< 1567729188 569658 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are quite a lot of interesting personalities in the House of Commons
< 1567729195 80610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww no way
< 1567729205 409487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still vote for the part of the city that has ruined the city park
< 1567729223 836011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where I spent all my childhood, and now it pains me any time I go there
< 1567729250 547237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't feel patriotic to my election district
< 1567729266 617512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably Lord Buckethead is everyone's favowrite Lord.
< 1567729325 270269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternately, it wasn't them who ruined it, because local governments don't have any power anymore, everything is done centrally, in which case there's no point being patriotic to any district government
< 1567729387 394762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lord Buckethead isn't actually a Lord (if he were, he wouldn't be able to run for the Commons)
< 1567729397 622551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, he isn't the same Lord Buckethead that became famous, there was an IP dispute
< 1567729406 220227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's hard to tell that the person beneath the bucket has changed, though)
< 1567729434 769833 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's why only very few independents get into the parliament, people vote to support a party in the parliament rather than to support a person supposedly representing their district
< 1567729462 81216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we normally get maybe 1 or 2 independents elected per election cycle in the UK
< 1567729486 287837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's difficult to win as an independent because you don't have a party's advertising / canvassing might behind you
< 1567729502 736251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because FPTP discourages voting for people who have little chance of winning
< 1567729525 167247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if an independent is considered a serious candidate in a constituency, they may well end up winning if people dislike their main competitors
< 1567729635 802910 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until recently I thought most Lords in the House of Lords were hereditary.
< 1567729637 904736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? there's a member of the parliament with a bucket on their head? but isn't that impossible because of https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=622 ?
< 1567729660 496683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But apparently that's only a small fraction of them.
< 1567729673 41720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest are appointed, but it's not clear to me exactly how the appointment works.
< 1567729677 185352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, just one or two independets at any time
< 1567729677 272193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, Lord Buckethead is a persistent /candidate/ to be an MP but has never won
< 1567729683 387027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor come remotely close to winning
< 1567729694 591123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's only one right now
< 1567729699 686376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it's by the Prime Minister, but sometimes by a committee?
< 1567729714 984793 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And appointments are for life. Should I think of it like US Supreme Court appointments?
< 1567729735 156028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so they'd remove the bucket if they became an MP?
< 1567729744 866631 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like life appointments to a really big advisory body that parliament calls on, that's what the Lords basically are at this point
< 1567729753 592129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: either that, or immediately resign
< 1567729772 988697 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, that can work too
< 1567729790 763636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the normal life-cycle of a law has the Commons design it and the Lords work out the details (and/or say "are you sure?"); the Lords can't block a bill but can delay it
< 1567729827 520747 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the non-serious party here was once asked what they'd do if they gained majority in the parliament (they never had anything near the chance for that), and whoever they asked said that they'd resign and call for a new election
< 1567729840 905019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the House of Lords is much weaker than e.g. the US Senate nowadays.
< 1567729843 950219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the Lords are a combination of hereditary peers which are families that have been Lording for generations (advantage: people can be educated specifically for the position; disadvantage: somewhat undemocratic), former MPs, and business/scientific leaders
< 1567729847 840111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite being called an "upper house".
< 1567729854 889662 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that wasn't the case in the past.
< 1567729883 632791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Lords used to be equal to the Commons, but there was a constitutional crisis in the early 20th century which lead to the commons being given an override
< 1567729975 585656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently bishops have priority over other humans in the House of Lords? What a scam.
< 1567729989 986442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for budgets, the override triggers automatically after 1 month if agreement hasn't been reached; for anything else, the Commons need to attempt to pass the same law twice a year apart and then intentionally trigger it)
< 1567730021 812836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being able to delay bills by a year is fairly powerful and gives the Commons lots of tiime to reconsider, but means that the Lords have no final say on almost anything
< 1567730037 318514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think "upper" means it should be stronger. it means the same as "Lords", that is, representing the upper classes of society
< 1567730037 804654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, MP terms are normally 5 years?
< 1567730053 81423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the exception: any attempt to increase the length of time between elections to more than 5 years needs to be approved by both the Commons and Lords, no override available)
< 1567730055 964412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right
< 1567730110 848312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think "upper" means that it's stronger in any case.
< 1567730125 97354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does in cards
< 1567730144 912916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's representing a single person, not a whole house
< 1567730158 161688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as much as cards represent people
< 1567730166 597154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're abstract stuff decorated with people
< 1567730169 953532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, one of the only times the override was actually used was to change the time limit on using the override from two years to one year
< 1567730188 242286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567730197 34827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, not a time limit, it's the opposite of a limit
< 1567730230 955952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasonable, that's the sort of topic that they're definitely familiar with so qualified to make rules about
< 1567730883 905068 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xkcjpdwjpkgizdmq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567733183 260678 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1567738982 353913 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hi
< 1567739143 392972 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah, the spec was originally designed for my personal reference
< 1567739181 749531 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to clarify a lot of stuff before it is ready for the wiki
< 1567739341 941747 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ready for the wiki as in directly explaining it on the wiki page
< 1567739442 397686 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :current thing is modifying the subroutine code to make it easier to reuse them
< 1567739480 339205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's { N , & , -- }
< 1567739501 334302 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :those commands are affected
> 1567740505 145397 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Super Stack14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=65990 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+26) 10Redirected page to [[Super Stack!]]
< 1567743122 322122 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567743377 671178 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567746173 836799 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65991&oldid=65989 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-3) 10updating with newest interpreter link.
> 1567746623 426343 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65992&oldid=65991 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+22) 10doing a little formatting.
< 1567751264 176314 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://kickjava.com/src/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState.java.htm
< 1567751299 337881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this autogenerated code?
< 1567752011 115810 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows, man
< 1567752296 604390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: My friend is very irritated at everything about this post: https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/394399/managing-and-organizing-the-massively-increased-number-of-classes-after-switchin
< 1567752380 957567 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567754214 379354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Peti345 5*  10New user account
< 1567754461 572900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah great, another company that buys into design patterns and best practices instead of just writing reasonable code
< 1567754491 787312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though on the plus side, they are writing tests
< 1567754540 773891 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567755468 672572 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1567755586 511707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-184.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567757733 490990 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567757932 641343 :nfd!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:7892:d6f0:ebf2:9c81 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567758131 767381 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567759007 743031 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567759275 408391 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (foldl (flip (.)) id [\x -> x+1, \x -> x*2, \x -> x*x]) 4
< 1567759277 528356 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 100
< 1567759285 225991 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(appEndo $ getDual $ mconcat $ map (Dual . Endo) [\x -> x+1, \x -> x*2, \x -> x*x]) 4
< 1567759295 331426 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (appEndo $ getDual $ mconcat $ map (Dual . Endo) [\x -> x+1, \x -> x*2, \x -> x*x]) 4
< 1567759297 713080 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 100
< 1567759352 428027 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mumbles something about a monoid at an informal gathering of endofunctions
< 1567759429 613356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote appendo
< 1567759430 51367 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :quicksilver says: 'appEndo' sounds like a harry potter spell
< 1567759431 772381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote appendo
< 1567759432 130698 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :hpc says: appEndo sounds like a harry potter spell
< 1567759439 465372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567759443 129216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :suspicious
< 1567759479 713738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> foldr ($) 4 [\x -> x+1, \x -> x*2, \x -> x*x]
< 1567759482 360343 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 33
< 1567759497 780697 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567759499 562980 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :appendo sounds like it would be an introductory minikanren example
< 1567759501 283093 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> foldl (&) 4 [\x -> x+1, \x -> x*2, \x -> x*x]
< 1567759504 590009 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 100
< 1567759678 735334 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567759683 785828 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1567759690 126872 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because of the video game that has a "flippendo" spell, it doesn't sound like a book-canon spell name
< 1567759771 382906 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't the quote I was looking for anyway.
< 1567761183 95108 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle &
< 1567761183 572382 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function (&) :: a -> (a -> b) -> b
< 1567761183 572433 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Lens.Lens (&) :: () => a -> (a -> b) -> b
< 1567761183 609118 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Lens.Operators (&) :: () => a -> (a -> b) -> b
< 1567762043 575065 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently python regexes *almost* the same syntax as perl regexen. there's one important difference, but that one is among the most frequent things I write in a regex:
< 1567762055 229760 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl's /\z/ corresponds to python's r"\Z"
< 1567762070 420644 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no
< 1567762074 882807 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily if I mess it up, r"\z" gives an unconditional error
< 1567762086 428475 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think I ever want to write perl's \Z specifically
< 1567762094 449608 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least never without thinking a lot
< 1567762217 125495 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other incompatibility is making named capture groups
< 1567762245 922935 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that some of these differences come from ancient historical reasons of course, because python has old roots and evolved parallel to perl
< 1567762806 108171 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567762943 410979 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator QUIT :Quit: Blame iczero something happened
< 1567762962 994125 :Bowserinator!Bowserinat@hellomouse/dev/Bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567762972 509970 :nfd!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:2443:7892:d6f0:ebf2:9c81 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1567763674 64894 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, I almost forgot this one! in windows, you need to add an extra double quote at the start of the command for the libc system function to work
< 1567764620 98661 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567764627 909444 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any examples of using one language's package system to distribute packages for some other language?
< 1567764661 460111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, the idea of "a language's package system" is so bad in the first place.
< 1567764671 569500 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know right?
< 1567764704 182051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to give up on all software.
< 1567764752 199343 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567765702 238962 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567766298 878279 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: good. so when do we start the rebelion to destroy all thinking machines?
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< 1567769308 965231 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dizpfkunuzwlbkyq JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567769852 773469 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567773873 292418 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567774795 103799 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
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< 1567776465 569568 :jglewd2641!0e8b26af@14.139.38.175 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567776718 890219 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-003-156-154.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567780874 150206 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
> 1567784482 203869 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65993&oldid=65992 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10updating with newest interpreter link.
> 1567784847 361110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Binary to unary conversion14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65994&oldid=65982 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+399) 10Adding an Unary to binary (arbitrary precision) conversion algorithm
> 1567785046 217808 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65995&oldid=53052 5* 03Gamer 5* (+82) 10
> 1567785079 198433 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65996&oldid=65995 5* 03Gamer 5* (+0) 10
> 1567785465 8057 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65997&oldid=65996 5* 03Gamer 5* (+59) 10
> 1567785547 165535 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65998&oldid=65997 5* 03Gamer 5* (+20) 10
< 1567786398 682366 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html is making my brain hurt. Do you still have the solitaire game example? http://int-e.home.tlink.de/haskell/solitaire.tar.gz is broken.
< 1567786446 237399 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.lisp.org/display/53766 is also broken
> 1567786493 912400 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=65999&oldid=65998 5* 03Gamer 5* (+284) 10/* Examples */
> 1567786508 810326 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66000&oldid=65999 5* 03Gamer 5* (+6) 10/* drawkcaB 3 nohtyP */
> 1567786527 768437 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66001&oldid=66000 5* 03Gamer 5* (+8) 10/* drawkcaB ++C */
< 1567786534 749433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: good question
> 1567786570 169474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66002&oldid=66001 5* 03Gamer 5* (+0) 10/* Concept */
< 1567786640 684950 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No hurry, it will probably take me several weeks to wrap my head around this
< 1567786720 441639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/haskell/solitaire.tar.gz in full bit-rotted glory... (February 2008)
< 1567786748 368774 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: awesome, thank you very much
< 1567786857 904852 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jcbjzllunqebinmp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567786871 210596 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kgbvsicjgmioiwgs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567786871 384767 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ucebfsfbbespuavj QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567786881 584403 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fgtdkxmnxqffajyg QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567786882 826710 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-idmcbvpovfbwuywt QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567787203 861341 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1567787565 609211 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qumwdridzklutixt JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567787657 170176 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell cpressey that was actually pretty painless to fix: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/haskell/solitaire-0.0.0.tar.gz
< 1567787657 249579 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1567788845 247158 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jhmrgrszbwryhqcc JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567788845 336288 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uxmotyuejwwafljo JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567788845 377397 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tzmeikvoehlzdhss JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567788853 697671 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yczziazegdstpdyg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567789067 548026 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567789491 19767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567790804 828209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot, what color of raisins do you prefer?
< 1567790804 905725 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: pick me, pick me!
< 1567790818 841299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I pick you
< 1567790819 8980 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i'm a teenage male interested in programming who recently found out about it is hurting?
< 1567790827 709068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1567790893 869316 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dizpfkunuzwlbkyq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567791177 899178 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style
< 1567791177 985519 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1567791207 51976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so, but where did fungot pick up such language...
< 1567791207 432416 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i don't remember henna facepaint in wizard of earthsea.) define a macro in a standard latex command. well, the problem i'm having is at fnord
< 1567791253 622604 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: tbf you started with a trick question
< 1567791309 733039 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Oh, when you address fungot as "my hon. and learned friend", that means you and fungot are both MPs, and fungot is also a lawyer, but not a member of the Privy Council. Is that right?
< 1567791310 241643 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: catfive. better tack on the nationality and ethnicity in there as it is
< 1567792544 262110 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567792722 462882 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
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< 1567795430 425460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mothology
< 1567795431 794877 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mothology is the study of moths, myths, mouths, and mirths.
< 1567795455 825158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mythology
< 1567795457 263118 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mythology is the study of myths, moths and mirths.
< 1567795458 892371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? myth
< 1567795460 146345 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A myth is a female moth.
< 1567795479 131213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mother
< 1567795480 306190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? moth
< 1567795480 377578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mother is a person who practices mothology.
< 1567795481 613104 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
< 1567795487 586597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? method
< 1567795489 59440 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A method is a tweaked out mothod.
< 1567795514 883904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? month
< 1567795516 158170 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Month is a misspelled Moth.
< 1567795522 44207 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize there were so many of these
< 1567795598 564734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mouth
< 1567795599 699308 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mouth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567795608 210168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A British moth?
< 1567795620 219322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mirth
< 1567795621 446879 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mirths are juvenile moths. They giggle a lot.
< 1567795805 646487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://esolangs.org/logs/2007-07-03.html#lcl + #scheme  What about it is hurting?
< 1567795869 201466 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I think most likely some other sentence containing at least the fragment "-- out about it --"
< 1567797231 519782 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1943:d2a7:aeba:5324 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567798580 142875 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? math
< 1567798581 815208 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :math? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567798630 708731 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :that’s reassuring
< 1567798665 948352 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mint
< 1567798667 166777 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567798701 414777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567798774 347438 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you like lossy compression of music?
< 1567798774 618018 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: unless you need faster code. and given ironically ( or mockingly... i'm unsure) but thanks :)
< 1567798805 918525 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: and what about lossless one?
< 1567798806 78092 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: forces statement to be fnord
< 1567798810 82131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like lossy compression of music
< 1567798917 530881 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how much losses you can stand?
< 1567798934 888576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: five
< 1567799090 173803 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m suspicious some people who were or are encoding music in mp3 don’t know how to do it good or do have a bad codec (is it a thing at all?), as then resulting file has a reasonable bitrate over 128 kbps or even over ~200 kbps but I hear artifacts
< 1567799104 192155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I do know how to do it
< 1567799110 222663 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even have my notes about which switches to give
< 1567799137 783956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit complicated because the software changed over the years, plus these days I can finally encode music to ogg instead of mp3
< 1567799157 479608 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the five is real, it's an argument to a certain switch that tends to give the right amount of compression 
< 1567799158 926617 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone even takes a file about 64 kbps and then “upscales” it. Poor universe
< 1567799208 14991 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: wait, what does five mean?
< 1567799227 354436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to test how much you can compress until you notice problems if you specifically look for them, then encode to significantly better quality than that
< 1567799309 796444 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: seems a good strategy, yes
< 1567799313 295098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ffmpeg -i "$infile" "${metadata[@]}" -vn -c:a libvorbis -q 5.0
< 1567799322 645878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 5.0 is a quality parameter to that particular codec
< 1567799341 135836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need different parameters depending on the software and the compression method and the quality switch obviously
< 1567799341 390478 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, quality index, or how’s it called, I see
< 1567799379 279389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAME also has an indexed set of variable rate qualities
< 1567799417 793325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, but I don't use LAME anymore
< 1567799428 797419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just encode video and audio with ffmpeg
< 1567799740 918489 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :several times I encoded some music these days I took the quality associated with ~200 kbps, I think. Its index should be 1 or 2 perhaps. I read that even mp3 is sufficiently good on almost all sounds when at bitrates > 128 kbps, and formats like ogg you mentioned or some other new ones, fare even better, but my anecdotal evidence suggests that it’s not that simple (for mp3)
< 1567799940 604958 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, 128 kbps is usually enough
< 1567800124 818010 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also how do you think could sample rate mismatch between a file and the sound card, matter? I don’t see how it would but…
< 1567800147 131245 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/how/
< 1567800378 146313 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :resampling audio between two arbitrary sample rates is an interesting problem
< 1567800411 418544 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a tradeoff between the amount of computation needed and the quality of the result
< 1567800445 276772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably between different types of distortions too
< 1567800450 34808 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty is related to the least common multiple of the rates
< 1567800472 34447 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, the easiest case is when one rate is a multiple of the other
< 1567800487 476304 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general you want to interpolate to the LCM and then decimate to the output rate
< 1567800503 224988 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are ways to do this with FIR filters that provably introduce minimum distortion
< 1567800519 692914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1567800530 516498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if the least common multiple is infinite, because the ratio is irrational?
< 1567800532 208569 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there are cases where the LCM rate would be prohibitively high
< 1567800545 566857 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that
< 1567800570 133345 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your sample rate is not a rational number then you are doing something freaky
< 1567800576 965598 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the LCM will always be finite, but it might be huge
< 1567800577 314337 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :um
< 1567800580 952514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1567800588 137644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sample rates are not dimensionless
< 1567800596 838544 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, why would you design a system where it's not
< 1567800600 409386 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dimension doesn't really matter
< 1567800610 559324 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is a rational conversion factor between any two practical time units
< 1567800615 514415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're in hertzes or gertzes depending on whether you're writing it in english or russian letters
< 1567800626 357839 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you measure time in pi-seconds or something then you deserve what's coming to you
< 1567800643 868078 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't design such a system, people design two separate systems, each of them is reasonable, it's just conversion between them that isn't
< 1567800661 249048 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give me an example please
< 1567800661 310429 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they come around from spinning vinyl disks or whatever
< 1567800663 839924 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where this has happened
< 1567800673 272373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I don't do audio stuff, it's not my thing
< 1567800686 646406 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any two time units in common use which do not have a rational conversion factor
< 1567800688 741011 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eventually it doesn't matter of course
< 1567800704 503502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because rational with prohibitively high LCM is basically the same problem
< 1567800710 961865 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567800726 229168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get between the two with some approximation in the rate
< 1567800729 498341 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-integer rates in Hz are common, for example NTSC framerate is 29.97 Hz for Historical Reasons™
< 1567800733 673440 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and PAL is 25
< 1567800740 689338 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b_jonas: there’s no cyrillic letter g :P also in an old transliteration h was converted to г, like Helmholtz and Huygens are (still and hopefully forever) Гельмгольц and Гюйгенс)
< 1567800748 299532 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course 29.97/25 is still rational
< 1567800766 794722 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway
< 1567800780 997811 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the LCM is too big then you can do other things at the expense of introducing distortion
< 1567800797 637887 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget exactly how
< 1567800838 765895 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can interpolate to a smaller compromise value and then during decimation, interpolate that 'on the fly' using a small filter such as cubic interpolation, that only looks at a few sample points
< 1567800859 95405 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do it properly might require storing many millions of data points in your DSP filter state
< 1567800860 565275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from encoding music files to mp3 or ogg and chopping them timewise, all I did with audio is remove them from audio+video files when I re-encode the video
< 1567800901 322025 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a fun script once to batch-convert my master music library (a mix of mostly flac and high quality mp3) to ogg vorbis for my portable music player
< 1567800909 631463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would distribute the work across multiple machines
< 1567800934 170463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I rewrote it in C# because I wanted to get a taste of what C# is like
< 1567800935 324707 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it remains the only C# program I've written
< 1567800985 699753 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it makes some sense for southern dialects where г is frequently a fricative [ɣ], not a plosive [ɡ] like in the normed dialect, and we could also for example take Ukrainian where г means [ɦ] outright and there’s a separate letter for plosive, ґ, AFAIR it’s used in rare contexts, but the transliteration of Hertz would be probably the same and it would be read more like the original name)
< 1567801041 514152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: sure, it just becomes funny when you transliterate the russian names back to hungarian, and you get g instead of h and f instead of th
< 1567801219 324223 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: did you come to any conclusions about C#?
< 1567801415 145226 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it seems like a fine language, like Java but less crippled, it's not terribly exciting but I wouldn't hate using it either
< 1567801508 70584 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesterday I remembered that I don’t like C# left switch statement syntax almost as it was in C and C++ (and Java?..) I have seen a syntax like switch (e) case (…) b case (…) b … else b (where b are blocks), this looks more comfortable in a language where low-level control flow inside switch doesn’t exist
< 1567801551 36007 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: ah, I agree
< 1567801589 955462 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw something like that somewhere and it looks strange
< 1567801803 888128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm not actually an engineer, so I don't meet those unit of measure abbreviations
< 1567801878 815214 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess Hz does appear on end-user electronics like mobile phone chargers
< 1567801943 302345 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these days all those end-user electronics have magical solid state transformers that work with any of the voltage and frequency standards for mains electronics
< 1567801969 495910 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct
< 1567801976 264655 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :switch-mode power supplies
< 1567801982 95059 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them will even run on DC input
< 1567801991 476226 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though not to arbitrarily low voltage
< 1567801998 272022 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMPS are very interesting
< 1567802046 178228 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple and clever, but tricky to design well in practice
< 1567802067 804042 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"~ 110–240 V 50/60 Hz" they all say, so you can use them with passive converters if you travel to anywhere
< 1567802074 177156 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they basically do AC->DC->AC->DC
< 1567802093 246289 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sounds inefficient but if you do it right it's very efficient
< 1567802106 864018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that because they transform to AC with much higher frequency?
< 1567802130 433120 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still magic, I don't know how it can work
< 1567802134 225610 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the middle AC frequency is on the order of 100-1000 kHz so they can use cheaper / lighter / smaller transformers
< 1567802195 31705 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the very simple overview is that they alternately charge up an energy storage device (usually an inductor) and then discharge it into another storage device (usually a capacitor), which feeds the load
< 1567802206 113646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes sense, but then they have to create such a higher frequency AC too, and without too much energy loss
< 1567802209 185161 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that alternation is controlled by semiconductor switches
< 1567802231 969073 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though actually, very old devices called "vibrators" worked on a similar principle, but mechanically!)
< 1567802245 566326 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(used to transform 12V DC in a car into hundreds of V for vacuum tube radios)
< 1567802253 719590 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a feedback loop which controls the frequency and/or duty cycle of the switching
< 1567802268 144787 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :to maintain a certain output voltage regardless of the load
< 1567802298 199737 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can boost as well as reduce voltages
< 1567802321 800557 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you can build ones that can take any input voltage in a wide range, lower or higher or the same as the output
< 1567802326 875027 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's more complicated
< 1567802350 606369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then they do multiple possible output voltages, and negotiate them through USB
< 1567802352 377758 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I find really interesting are the similarities between a SMPS, a class-D amplifier, a delta-sigma DAC, and an active power factor correction circuit
< 1567802355 467472 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1567802396 270358 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can sort of think of a class-D (switching) amplifier as a SMPS whose output voltage varies over time, determined by the input signal
< 1567802400 978849 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the car charger ones take 12 V DC
< 1567802421 407942 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB-C-PD is neat. I have a single brick, not much bigger than a typical phone charging brick, that can charge both my phone and my laptop
< 1567802424 459839 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's handy for travel
< 1567802472 289303 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still use the larger dedicated laptop brick at home
< 1567802486 973193 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some strange esoteric things you can do with USB-C
< 1567802494 734937 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like plug two chargers into each other, or plug your laptop into itself
< 1567802500 228148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't charge laptop, but I can charge any of my low power devices (camera, mobile phone, spare mobile phone, music player, bluetooth headphone adapter) with the same charger 
< 1567802510 875029 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1567802534 611819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're all low power, unlike the laptop
< 1567802545 197503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :laptop chargers actually heat up, that's harder
< 1567802562 892058 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :two chargers into each other? what does that do?
< 1567802565 476463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this brick is capable of 60W (3A @ 20V)
< 1567802569 931895 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is enough for the laptop to charge
< 1567802570 77921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean with only one charger plugged into mains?
< 1567802585 377165 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it requires 20V which is why most of my bricks won't charge it
< 1567802591 956549 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the factory default charger is only 65W anyway
< 1567802599 555957 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it produces mains out of the other one, obviously /s
< 1567802611 117393 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that would be touch unsafe
< 1567802614 136028 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a USB-C inline power meter too
< 1567802615 489316 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is neat
< 1567802656 624207 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells the voltage, current, and direction of power
< 1567802771 769028 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1567802790 437093 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567802846 411705 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.153.190 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567804471 505560 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567804892 352323 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567804900 134998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello Lykaina
< 1567804917 899967 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :updated the documentation pdf (again)
< 1567804927 701950 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567804935 882149 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas 
< 1567804965 640483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: interesting stuff. Now I know I don’t kow anything about contemporary electronics :D
< 1567804977 210630 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/kow/know
< 1567804992 278961 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1567804996 654029 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's complicated shit
< 1567805021 944019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567805023 544201 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had that impression already, but not I’m aware I’m hopeless
< 1567805038 403155 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I knew very little until 2-3 years ago
< 1567805039 776243 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which explains why our company keeps hiring so many people who understand electronics enough to design and assemble it
< 1567805080 369456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and train engineer student interns in it too
< 1567805095 923112 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with SMPSes is that they (especially the cheap ones) tend to produce tons of radio frequency interference at frequencies which interfere with ham radio
< 1567805109 40867 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on this new, easier to read pdf, what is your opinion of Echidna? http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/spec_notes.pdf
< 1567805111 604182 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :making it harder and harder to operate HF from populated areas
< 1567805156 995832 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they also produce RF on the output itself so some hams still swear by the old, huge, expensive, inefficient linear power supplies
< 1567805160 533223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: but can't the power supplies shield that with some wires unless they're disassembled?
< 1567805192 74192 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: oh, unfortunate
< 1567805236 706482 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a linear supply is much simpler. a transformer to drop ac voltage down to a bit above the target, a diode rectifier, and a linear regular which acts as a variable resistor in series with the load
< 1567805242 27482 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some smoothing caps
< 1567805254 216791 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still a feedback system, but an analog continuous-time one
< 1567805257 796964 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no switching
< 1567805280 148879 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :most ham gear comes with a 13.8V DC power input and you provide your own power supply
< 1567805310 467613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of the cheaper ones are made so badly that they draw measurable current from the mains even when they're not loaded
< 1567805315 177005 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes but that would cost an extra $0.0002
< 1567805325 233060 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there shielding
< 1567805345 141580 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you need it for FCC certification but how many Chinese companies will actually care
< 1567805354 434847 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the shielding isn't necessarily good enough for hams
< 1567805362 481435 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants to pick up weak signals
< 1567805381 867380 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :much more stringent requirements than "don't interfere with my other consumer electronics"
< 1567805395 981742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567805425 622021 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you need it for FCC certification but how many Chinese companies will actually care> would they hopefully decades later?
< 1567805446 541382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops I forgot to copy all
< 1567805455 420493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like astronomers, who have to move their big telescopes to small research towns that have more stringent regulation for darkening curtains on houses than people had during world war II
< 1567805480 62685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how they don't just trip and fall on the street at new moon there
< 1567805489 659382 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqsmbnheqptssdyu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567805490 901638 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1567805510 280593 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the human eye can do well in very low light if properly adjusti
< 1567805515 886740 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: flashlights and wax candles
< 1567805517 669380 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :adjusted
< 1567805542 600827 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes, that's why it's fine at full moon
< 1567805550 862133 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even at half moon
< 1567805566 915505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sometimes there's new moon, and then it's new moon everywhere on Earth
< 1567805589 322839 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :including in those places
< 1567805594 398162 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat
< 1567805622 379389 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i asked my question at the wrong time...
< 1567805629 835482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no
< 1567805635 932411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry
< 1567805642 393710 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will look at that pdf eventually
< 1567805642 597143 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(don’t mind me, I’m stalling in going to sleep)
< 1567805672 489164 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already decided that it's not so weird to have 4 addressing modes for most instructions, because you have so few instructions that the total is still well under 256 different opcodes
< 1567805750 573865 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1567805790 314225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I complained a few days ago that it seemed strange that almost every operand to your instructions can be immediate, or so it seems from the pdf
< 1567805810 867356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have like a dozen two-operand instructions where that applies to both operands
< 1567805834 739286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: my previous question about indirect loads still stands though
< 1567805848 59349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1567805856 76974 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: maybe you don't logread? is that the problem?
< 1567805873 492578 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is logread?
< 1567805913 191245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :read channel logs for what people said while you're not joined to the channel
< 1567805925 726989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :has nothing to do with logarithms
< 1567806002 934429 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe @tell, then?
< 1567806137 321407 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I rely upon lambdabot usually, so if I should logread something, please remind me in that case too
< 1567806195 610097 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what is indirect load?
< 1567806240 521904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: load when the memory address of where you're loading from is not constant
< 1567806263 987614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although now with this later version of the pdf, it's getting unclear
< 1567806271 275523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this thing allow self-modifying code?
< 1567806284 108849 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so
< 1567806333 443652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why does it say that subroutines are at "Range 0100-EFFF" of the "Memory"? is that in a code memory separate from the data memory that the arithmetic instructions operate on?
< 1567806359 524900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should look at the interpreter. does it have readable code?
< 1567806375 990464 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo. subroutines uses that memory space
< 1567806407 953620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's your data stack?
< 1567806422 470190 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1567806432 82873 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have a stack, you don't have the right sort of instructions for them
< 1567806443 879793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be hard to manipulate a stack without an indirect load
< 1567806449 9052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's why it's such a large area?
< 1567806450 79152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well
< 1567806465 627462 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the interpreter
< 1567806468 256932 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can globally compile everything, find all the calls, and assign the local addresses that way
< 1567806831 370877 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i understand what you mean by indirect load correctly, i may be able to implement it by adding a third argument input type (as in other than @xxxx and =xxxx types)
< 1567806869 795308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so.. the control instructions, as in N & -- O P Q _ - are all structured ones, there are no arbitrary gotos
< 1567806872 814594 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting
< 1567806908 392537 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: as I read the spec right now, the L and M instructions are the only ones that can do an indirect load
< 1567806921 520435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except I don't understand what the S instruction does at all
< 1567806947 421410 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :reads the program
< 1567806958 30948 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :*from the
< 1567807066 577476 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if there's text in the program file
< 1567807080 226549 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reads it to memory
< 1567807113 101724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that makes sense
< 1567807257 335918 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i make, say, a $xxxx in addition to =xxxx and @xxxx, where, as @xxxx is mem[value], $xxxx would be mem[mem[value]], would that help?
< 1567807382 999478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which instructions would take which combinations of address modes? you'd have to tell that somewhere
< 1567807417 847494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to have indirect addresing modes sort of everywhere, then I don't understand why you have a specific instruction for an indirect store
< 1567807453 154205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is indirect store?
< 1567807458 528495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :H
< 1567807463 686073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also does ordinary store
< 1567807593 121347 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1943:d2a7:aeba:5324 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567807602 816692 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's not dedicated
< 1567807623 304424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's dedicated because the other instructions, the arithmetic ones, can only store to a fixed address
< 1567807628 609734 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but H can store indirectly
< 1567807637 687578 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?
< 1567807638 432654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the logic instructions can load indirect if I understand correctly
< 1567807651 537522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe I just misunderstand the spec
< 1567807761 844788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait
< 1567807778 382611 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567807786 853806 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an idea for rewriting memory addressing notation, would mean the samples would have to be rewritten too...
< 1567807809 134229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the implementation it doesn't look like the L and M instructions can read from indirect addresses
< 1567807813 662174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did I see in the spec then?
< 1567807843 123174 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1567807864 760500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't understand the descriptions of the L and M ops from the pdf because they're a bit unclear on what is their input and output
< 1567807876 528683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter makes it clear that they don't do indirect loads
< 1567807899 49186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also that all the arithmetic instructions can do indirect stores
< 1567807903 425194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was wrong about that too
< 1567807909 313491 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :=xxxx is currently used to represent mem[xxxx] instead of xxxx in certain places
< 1567807926 458727 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm seeing possible confusion
< 1567807967 699807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno then
< 1567807979 134059 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current combo with no indirect load but lots of indirect stores is ... strange
< 1567807993 555707 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall having seen such an instruction set
< 1567807996 57776 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like H =xxxx =yyyy stores yyyy to mem[xxxx]
< 1567808014 609017 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that confusing?
< 1567808033 89645 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no, it's not confusing about the H and the arithmetic instructions
< 1567808042 926339 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for your description of the logic instructions, it is confusing
< 1567808051 470954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pdf doesn't tell what they read and write
< 1567808057 686180 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike in the arithmetic instructions
< 1567808090 220284 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at page 1 for examples of L and M
< 1567808282 486894 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that help?
< 1567808285 711043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567808307 31051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implementation code does though
< 1567808342 973881 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you recommend i change it?
< 1567808392 428953 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pdf, i mean
< 1567808404 615407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1567808419 731773 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the pdf, where you describe the T operation, you see how there's an equals sign in it? mem[val0] is on the lhs of that, val1 and val2 are on the rhs. from that you can tell that the first operand is output only, the second and third are input only
< 1567808443 547866 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tells what that instruction does, what it stores to mem[val0]
< 1567808470 910244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :try something like that for the L and M instructions
< 1567808543 127526 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "L bitwise_1bit: mem[val0] = (~val1 & val2 | val1 & val3)"
< 1567808562 103911 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only of course swap around the stuff in it until it actually describes what the operation does
< 1567808674 646031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly like "M bitwise_2bit: mem[val0] = (val1 & val2 & -(0 != val & 8)) | val1 & ~val2 & -(0 != val & 4) | ~val1 & val2 & -(0 != val & 2) | ~val1 & ~val2 & -(0 != val &1)) but again swap around stuff until it matches your implementation
< 1567808732 729665 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it will help, i'm gonna change the {=,@} stuff to {=,@,$} where =xxxx is always literal value, @xxxx is always direct address, and $xxxx is always indirect address
< 1567808764 642878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't want long formulas there, you can also write something like "M bitwise_2bit: mem[val0] = bitwise_2bit(val1, val2, val3)" and you explain elsewhere what the pure arithmetic part "bitwise_2bit" does, to at least maek it clear what is read from memory and what is written
< 1567808807 480505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: might help, since that matches more how popular assembly syntax for cpus work
< 1567808830 380592 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that approach. it's what i attempted to do originally
< 1567808839 634202 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you should also have somewhere in the pdf that makes it clear which instructions work with what combinatinos of addressing modes
< 1567809001 859752 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you
< 1567809003 40257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needn't be in the same table as the one that summarizes the ops
< 1567809008 167012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be a separate table
< 1567809540 193595 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: oh, and I also asked
< 1567809553 603625 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd1d:c0d0:b2fd:9149 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567809602 751227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: for the arithmetic instructions that do less-than compare, division, right shift, can you make it clear whether these are unsigned integer comparison, unsigned divsion, unsigned right shift? and is there a separate signed less-than comparison instruction?
< 1567809815 596674 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd1d:c0d0:b2fd:9149 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567810011 83879 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... the interpreter stores each of the 65536 words of the memory, logically 2 bytes sized each, in 4 bytes each?
< 1567810014 103688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you doing that?
< 1567810028 115903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this something I misunderstood in the pdf too, and they're actually 4 byte long?
< 1567810048 2785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks from the interpreter as if they were 4 bytes long
< 1567810054 401644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1567810069 59846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wait
< 1567810069 986240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1567810078 463644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567810105 116073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is confusing
< 1567810119 728022 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to read the whole code to tell if you can store more than two bytes in a cell, thus breaking the abstraction
< 1567810122 966211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not willing to do that now
< 1567810444 347428 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's supposed to be 65536 cells, each 2 bytes in size.
< 1567810457 107152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why don't you represent them that way too?
< 1567810464 210894 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't?
< 1567810473 320492 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't look like from the source code
< 1567810511 758679 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are "unsigned int". in C, is that not 2 bytes?
< 1567810518 495096 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567810589 619972 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always thought an int was 2 bytes, a long was 4 bytes...
< 1567810616 307280 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567810631 249280 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want 2 bytes use uint16_t
< 1567810668 439775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: it's not that simple, you have to be careful with the arithmetic because it will promote to int and do a signed shift
< 1567810671 442432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is ugly
< 1567810687 992213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may need explicit casts or such things
< 1567810689 586036 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah arithmetic is tricky
< 1567810698 567549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic in *C* is tricky
< 1567810711 976150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a complication by C rules
< 1567810718 727271 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: the C standard doesn’t place many constraints on how big exactly int, long, etc are
< 1567810794 126698 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :often on modern computers short is 2, int is 4, long is 8 but that is NOT guaranteed
< 1567810808 677153 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: if I subtract an unsigned int from a signed long, what type is the result?
< 1567810841 731164 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll change it to a short
< 1567810851 339009 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of an int
< 1567810852 270216 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no
< 1567810873 950487 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want 2 bytes, write int16_t or uint16_t
< 1567810882 119000 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what's your take?
< 1567810902 190572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: again, it's not that simple, if you do that, you'll also have to change some of the code for the arithmetic instrs too
< 1567810909 710064 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I know the right answer is “read the spec” :P
< 1567810935 408551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the current version gets more of them right than if you just change all the types to a short
< 1567810997 795483 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :j4cbo: I'm still a bit shocked about how (a) 0<1 has a different type in C++ than in C, yet the difference in type is _almost_ never detectable in code that you can write in both C and C++
< 1567811055 45000 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a pity, because apart from that stupid change, the C++ rules are usually IMO better than the C rules
< 1567811107 190875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's possible that that change is for the better too, I'm just not quite convinced that it's worth
< 1567811207 129705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: anyway, I think first you should decide how you want the less-than, division and right-shift operations behave, then be careful that the code for those and for the subtraction implements them correctly
< 1567811266 853749 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned, integer division
< 1567811282 233170 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no floats
< 1567811439 734495 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :x-=-1
< 1567811469 723107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: ah yes, secret operators
< 1567811584 128493 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that even compile?
< 1567811591 367324 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :x-=-1 ?
< 1567811637 199747 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it has to be "x -= -1"
< 1567811660 467129 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what does that do?
< 1567811670 932429 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :don’t forget the “goes to” operator: while (x --> 0) { ... }
< 1567811701 978867 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=x - -1
< 1567811769 589535 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever invented lambda operations is a sadist
< 1567811769 699863 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the  -=- operator is the same as the += operator
< 1567811832 728199 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly
< 1567811838 222718 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the +=- operator is the same as the -= operator
< 1567811861 487849 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :why make them?
< 1567812119 676321 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: not quite, sadly
< 1567812129 729305 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in C that is
< 1567812132 305903 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :overflow rules
< 1567812215 579561 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :+= is better than -=-
< 1567812564 930616 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-35-175-217-128.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, when the right operand is MAX_INT?
< 1567812735 975466 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567812847 252750 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.zentut.com/c-tutorial/c-integer/
< 1567813010 10380 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567813263 295587 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.153.190 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1567813697 568797 :Saggytarius!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567814051 568634 :Saggytarius!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1567815030 969361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66003&oldid=65993 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10updating with newest interpreter link.
< 1567815141 13004 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :made changes to both interpreter and spec_notes file
< 1567815174 927728 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: too late today, but warn me later to look at them
< 1567815186 320992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/warn/remind/
< 1567815192 978378 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :k
< 1567815314 79048 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.201 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567815444 490099 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope page 3 of the pdf is helpful
< 1567815510 750239 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also known as "Never ask me do to documentation for something that matters."
< 1567815671 107850 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqsmbnheqptssdyu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567816325 493566 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The TUTOR language has 150 variables, named v1 through v150, which can be assigned names.
< 1567816332 604229 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just... *blink*
< 1567816363 324716 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo
< 1567816370 610119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like enough?
< 1567816381 212641 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only needs two anyway.
< 1567816401 773810 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Lykaina 
< 1567816588 155741 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls tmp
< 1567816589 232183 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :a.c \ a.out \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ input.brachylog \ jeval.whatis \ out \ OUT \ out.a \ out.a.hd \ out.a.xxd \ paste \ spline \ spout \ spout.raw \ tmp.txt
< 1567816592 990560 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` tmp/out.a
< 1567816593 839951 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally
< 1567816599 742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tg
< 1567816602 946497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file tmp/out.a
< 1567816603 891359 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmp/out.a: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, not stripped
< 1567818007 942688 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567818136 594004 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.201 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1567818327 945155 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1567819770 647710 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.201 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567822372 440876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/out.a.hd
< 1567822373 315233 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/out.a.hd
< 1567822533 715307 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone over at ##c wanted `a || b` on pointer-typed operands to yield the first non-null value, instead of 0 or 1.
< 1567822633 314382 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.201 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1567822651 600965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the amd64 System V ABI, I'm still kind of confused about %rdx.
< 1567822734 802393 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're supposed to register it with atexit, when you're using the ELF interpreter with dynamic linking.
< 1567822761 2117 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I seem to get 0 in that register even in that case?
< 1567822849 333019 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it might be that the system may or may not provide it? Though that's not what the spec says.
< 1567822860 19942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how are you supposed to know?
< 1567822874 940843 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it's null presumably you don't need to register it.
< 1567822877 155375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you just check for 0, but I don't like that. What if it's initialized to something else?
< 1567822913 863226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "may or may not provide" I meant it'd always set it to 0 if it doesn't need you to register anything.
< 1567822933 104030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it would be nice if any standard specified that.
< 1567822936 989115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just something that could make sense, I don't have any proof for that.
< 1567822942 277141 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does BA_OS mean anyway? 
< 1567822960 697470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good question.
< 1567822982 56118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Base System
< 1567823016 86031 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, apparently they are sections of the System V Interface Definition.
< 1567823019 139155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :See https://stackoverflow.com/questions/37419635/in-the-elf-spec-what-does-ba-os-and-ke-os-mean and the linked PDF.
< 1567823023 778940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which presumably you already found.
< 1567823203 468261 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should just look at what crt.o does.
< 1567823209 541762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately it's all such a mess.
< 1567823295 712022 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what all software is. I'm always surprised it works as often as it does.
< 1567823336 767664 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been writing Go recreationally lately.
< 1567823347 887302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.text; .globl _start; _start: mov $60, %rax; mov $123, %rdi; syscall'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -dynamic-linker /lib64/ld-linx-x86-64.so.2 -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o && /tmp/test; echo $?; file /tmp/test
< 1567823348 883690 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :123 \ /tmp/test: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
< 1567823374 848927 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the flag to give to ld to make that dynamically linked?
< 1567823433 91520 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember, ld is awkward to use directly. It's not -shared, because that's what creates shared objects.
< 1567823448 958439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :-Bdynamic? 
< 1567823458 576720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried that and it was still static.
< 1567823472 329758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess -lc works but that does rather a lot more than I want here.
< 1567823506 332491 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also this is pointless because I don't know how to output the value of %rdx in HackEso.
< 1567823514 815643 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd use gdb locally.
< 1567823558 41779 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you don't need all the bits just to see if it's zero or not.
< 1567823565 364487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did just output the value 123 there.
< 1567823565 956479 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true. That was my plan.
< 1567823574 902850 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'll be 0.
< 1567823598 65791 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it needs to have a some NEEDED entries to not count as "statically linked" for file.
< 1567823627 795231 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file /bin/ls
< 1567823628 616231 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin/ls: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=3c233e12c466a83aa9b2094b07dbfaa5bd10eccd, stripped
< 1567823641 297001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was dynamically linked I think it'd say "shared object" instead of "executable".
< 1567823686 134137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would at least name the interpreter.
< 1567823819 216398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, execve can tell you ENOENT when the interpreter isn't found.
< 1567823851 153240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.text; .globl _start; _start: mov $60, %rax; mov $123, %rdi; syscall'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -dynamic-linker /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o -lc && /tmp/test; echo $?; file /tmp/test
< 1567823852 378430 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :123 \ /tmp/test: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, not stripped
< 1567823919 311772 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I guess ld might just not be willing to make a dynamically linked thing without any libraries.
< 1567823979 500664 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably something unknowable to mortals involving linker scripts.
< 1567824023 746211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.text; .globl _start; _start: mov $100, %rdi; test %rdx, %rdx; jz e; mov $105, %rdi; e: mov $60, %rax; syscall'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -dynamic-linker /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o -lc && /tmp/test; echo $?
< 1567824025 135307 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :105
< 1567824048 373844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh. Is that saying that rdx is nonzero?
< 1567824056 236479 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it sounded like.
< 1567824061 560650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I'm starting to remember this. There was something complicated here.
< 1567824084 387371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.text; .globl _start; _start: call %rdx; mov $60, %rax; mov $123, %rdi; syscall'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -dynamic-linker /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o -lc && /tmp/test; echo $?
< 1567824085 398336 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/test.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/test.s:1: Warning: indirect call without `*' \ 123
< 1567824095 989423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.
< 1567824103 176177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now I'm not sure what issue I ran into.
< 1567824109 65597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there was definitely something.
< 1567824206 874246 :aloril_!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a4b-4.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567824300 991020 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.text; .globl _start; _start: push %rdx; mov $1, %edi; mov %rsp, %rsi; mov $8, %edx; mov $1, %eax; syscall; mov $60, %eax; syscall'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld -dynamic-linker /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o -lc && /tmp/test | hd
< 1567824302 731344 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :000000 a0 fb 00 40 00 00 00 00                          >...@....< \ 000008
< 1567824304 96339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I was testing this with musl libc where it doesn't work so well.
< 1567824306 182778 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks nonzero to me.
< 1567824345 799095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x4000fba0 might be a plausible pointer as well, maybe? 
< 1567824348 47574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat /proc/self/maps
< 1567824348 728282 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :00100000-00102000 r-xp 00000000 00:00 0  \ 40000000-40023000 r-xp 00000000 00:0f 1336451                            /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ld-2.24.so \ 40023000-40025000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0  \ 40025000-401c1000 r--p 00000000 00:0d 1440239                            /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive \ 401c1000-401e3000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0  \ 40223000-40224000 r--p 00023000 00:0f 1336451                            /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ld-2.24.so \ 40224000-
< 1567824393 937594 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I called it in the program above, so it's certainly a plausible function pointer.
< 1567824496 941964 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567824537 711148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this is interesting. I remember now.
< 1567824561 263019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :musl's ELF interpreter is passing _start's address in %rdx.
< 1567824654 958390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I see I had a comment saying this in my ELF generator program.
< 1567824736 665583 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.global _start; _start: mov $1, %eax'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld --oformat=binary -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o && wc -c /tmp/test
< 1567824738 124877 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 /tmp/test
< 1567824740 209380 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo >/tmp/test.s $'.global _start; _start: mov $1, %rax'; as -o /tmp/test.o /tmp/test.s && ld --oformat=binary -o /tmp/test /tmp/test.o && wc -c /tmp/test
< 1567824741 461752 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 /tmp/test
< 1567824751 633736 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as an aside.
< 1567824771 944500 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1567824852 33452 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're commenting on my "mov $60, %rax" and so on?
< 1567824890 960058 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not really "commenting on", but related to.
< 1567824891 449246 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that I almost ran up against HackEso's time and memory limits with those extra bytes.
< 1567824896 565647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's true.
< 1567824917 312490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to use cmp %rdx, $0 but I thought people would make fun of me.
< 1567824926 134766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I used test %rdx, %rdx instead.
< 1567824956 7461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly it was too late.
< 1567825172 523593 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a thing that does a thing every few hours or so. I'd like to know if it starts failing to do the thing. I added Prometheus counters for total things and failed things, but I'm a little afraid the natural timescale of Prometheus is not well suited to that. (I'm sure it *can* work, but still.)
< 1567825175 414033 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6a4b-4.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567825331 890645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't want to make it do the thing more often, because it does the thing to someone else's thing, and anyway it doesn't need to because usually it's just the same thing.)
< 1567825440 998522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what's the issue here?
< 1567825558 853155 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there should be made Magic: the Gathering card named "Leper Window", but am unsure what it should be.
< 1567825580 522183 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :either a M:tG card or a band
< 1567825599 57694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc
< 1567825618 843514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you in for scrapping all existing software
< 1567825622 438533 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it isn't really an issue, it just feels wrong to sample the thing every minute or every five minutes because it's almost never changing, and then there's a lot of samples. But from what I recall, Prometheus can't really do sparse sampling.
< 1567825664 685209 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: meh
< 1567825692 981197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for sdr of course
< 1567825788 719055 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: How do you feel about getting scrapped?
< 1567825789 126794 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: know of any
< 1567825818 399123 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Anyone who got scrapped? No, not really.
< 1567825818 656339 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: my favourite fractal is still cantor's dust :) i was just requesting a heap of muck. but some.
< 1567825922 766083 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: how do you feel about scrapping all non-kittens
< 1567825942 185798 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make up a band called that too, maybe.
< 1567825947 176983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was telling the miri folks about how i want to make a kitten maximizer
< 1567825961 416193 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them seem nervous about the idea
< 1567826086 870619 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed the Echidna documentation
< 1567826098 255933 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now
< 1567826122 557174 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :clarified pg 3
< 1567826476 442908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: how about an everything minimizer
< 1567826744 210814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no hth
< 1567826811 684231 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :only things beginning with the letter n
< 1567826826 333155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that a maximizer?
< 1567826869 902339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://english.lem.pl/works/novels/the-cyberiad/146-how-the-world-was-saved
< 1567828179 568272 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567828443 569056 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1567829025 298319 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "arrow" command in TUTOR is weirdly named. It doesn't just drawn an arrow
< 1567830568 116479 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the "arrow" command in TUTOR mean, then?
< 1567830989 787152 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567831013 602418 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567831265 600180 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5ded:1c76:ebea:a8b1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567832142 821670 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It prompts the student for input, and enters a judging mode for commands like answer or wrong to pattern match against the input. I think
< 1567832174 191717 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A judging block in TUTOR is a control structure that begins with an arrow command and ends with the next arrow, endarrow or unit command. The arrow command also prompts for input, with the special arrow character (resembling "▷") displayed as a prompt at the indicated screen coordinates. In effect, a judging block can be thought of as a backtracking control structure where the student may make multiple attempts to answer a question unti
< 1567832174 331681 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :l a correct answer allows forward progress."
< 1567832191 333873 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUTOR_(programming_language)
< 1567836642 611471 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd14:816e:6445:4bc JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567836742 941885 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e0df:8599:cf09:7e1a JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567836842 805647 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfJoke14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66004&oldid=54460 5* 03A 5* (+734) 10
< 1567836955 524784 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:dd14:816e:6445:4bc QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1567837011 951019 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e0df:8599:cf09:7e1a QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
> 1567837148 709823 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfJoke14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66005&oldid=66004 5* 03A 5* (-735) 10
> 1567837194 526019 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfJoke14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66006&oldid=66005 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10
< 1567837894 338303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So here's the entry point call in musl: https://github.com/ifduyue/musl/blob/master/ldso/dynlink.c#L1742
< 1567837919 573990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it just uses an automatically-selecte register, so with one version I was getting the entry point in rdx and in another version I was getting it in rax (and rdx was 0).
< 1567837941 639738 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I feel like something is wrong here because it's obviously not passing something in in rdx.
< 1567837961 29264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also I mean entry point jump, not call, of course.)
< 1567838357 602623 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e0df:8599:cf09:7e1a JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567839504 428419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should rodata be mapped -x?
< 1567839516 737365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how likely it is to contain ROP gadgets or that sort of thing.
< 1567839768 463326 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro ro ro your data
< 1567839779 383103 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good reason why it should be +x?
< 1567839780 574994 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides fun
< 1567839958 19457 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-0.2 rounds to 0 in TUTOR's conditional statements that compare an expression and have different branches for negative, zero, and individual positive numbers
< 1567839998 98055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so?
< 1567840013 186783 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can load it in one segment rather than two.
< 1567840033 260712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Go compiler generates three load segments, r, rx, rw
< 1567840042 989359 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas gcc/clang generate only rx and rw.
> 1567840698 81476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfSpace14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66007 5* 03A 5* (+361) 10Created page with "[[GolfSpace]] is a joke esolang inspired by [[Golf Cheat]] and [[GolfJoke]]. It is essentially [[GolfJoke]], except the question number is encoded as backspaces and Deletes as..."
< 1567841720 720405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa
< 1567841731 762945 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently they expanded on "Assembled a contraption".
< 1567841737 509825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I knew about that? I don't remember.
< 1567841805 264226 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567844383 714805 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
> 1567844627 239907 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slindow14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66008 5* 03A 5* (+174) 10Created page with "[[Slindow]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that makes it easy to solve sliding-window challenges. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
> 1567844781 952643 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66009&oldid=66008 5* 03A 5* (+386) 10
> 1567845024 992855 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66010&oldid=66009 5* 03A 5* (+350) 10
< 1567845070 465235 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thoughts on wget2?
< 1567845885 519790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that?
< 1567846103 619775 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567846215 114479 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567846716 544757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07$14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66011&oldid=58729 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+67) 10Turing
> 1567847500 650675 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66012&oldid=66010 5* 03A 5* (+656) 10
> 1567847849 673352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Slindow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66013&oldid=66012 5* 03A 5* (+14) 10/* Built-ins */
< 1567848917 656593 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :had a dream jessie and james finally captured pikachu, but james was sucked into the pokball as well
< 1567849195 439230 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :jessie wasn't sure whether to keep pikachu or free her boyfriend james.
< 1567849400 461418 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as pikachu would likely escape
< 1567850874 825929 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but only in silver-bordered land. it's one of MaRo's worse ideas to give meaning to it.
< 1567851661 400017 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas
< 1567851690 462810 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on an update to doc and code
< 1567851712 4925 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll let you know when finished
> 1567853822 454921 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66014&oldid=66003 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+0) 10updating with newest interpreter link.
< 1567853852 470196 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: updated
< 1567859770 568106 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567860927 772907 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567860932 695777 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1567866992 598548 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qgdfctcwfvubxhsg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567867215 53731 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the history of lenses (Haskell ones)?
< 1567867238 98252 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567867369 218711 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567867794 48610 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :updated documentation pdf for Echidna
> 1567868257 593266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66015&oldid=66014 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-8) 10fixing first line
< 1567868881 809578 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo_ 
< 1567869379 503517 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well move Echidna from Dropbox to Git
< 1567869491 26536 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567869516 845229 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-003-156-154.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567869766 8548 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do people wanna talk about lol
< 1567869819 575984 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echidna, mother of all monsters?
< 1567869833 654503 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk anything about echidna lol
< 1567869852 749346 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I check it out?
< 1567869871 59989 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echidna is my esolang
< 1567869882 682844 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well should I check it out lol
< 1567869931 739988 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. it's still a work in progress, though
< 1567869951 272383 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1567870071 948154 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm working on moving it to a bitbucket repo
< 1567870110 582023 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it easier for me
< 1567870128 699085 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently hosted on my webserver
< 1567870331 930110 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567870453 243108 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a neat language
< 1567870468 492884 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567870881 963826 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567872934 376514 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you active?
< 1567873198 435376 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we might as well be the only "kind of active" people here lol
< 1567873379 904768 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spexty: fungot is always active, it’s usually just not noticeable
< 1567873380 111356 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: and i don't think it's true that it turns 110 into 111 and vice versa?
< 1567873395 148489 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need help from someone i already know i can trust. I knew Sgeo_ in rl, nobody else here qualifies for that as far as I know.
< 1567873552 776517 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for Echidna...did i do this right? https://bitbucket.org/lykaina/echidna/
< 1567873587 860194 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567873796 946682 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone tell me if i did the repo properly?
< 1567874061 940708 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :great...
< 1567874078 372425 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk anything about bitbucket sry
< 1567874089 832285 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it look good
< 1567874109 701587 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean
< 1567874113 9915 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it missing anything on visual inspection
< 1567874124 295835 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think so
< 1567874156 313487 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitbucket is a competitor to github
< 1567874167 895155 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much it
< 1567874288 249730 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like using microsoft products when i don't have to
< 1567874561 288497 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bitbucket is owned by atlassian, so i have the free version of jira as well
< 1567874569 733153 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you need a version control, there is Fossil
< 1567874613 779640 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been using bitbucket for years
< 1567874614 955547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Atlassian is odd.
< 1567874625 135346 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so?
< 1567874673 20094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gone through the procedure of deleting my account once. Which is when I learned that I had *two* accounts, one bitbucket account and one general Atlassian account in the background that I was unaware of before...
< 1567874765 466455 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And IIRC the process meant that I had a third account in their issue tracker.
< 1567874781 200132 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This abundance of service specific accounts is what I found odd.
< 1567874790 206651 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567874799 679023 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's weird
< 1567874810 343775 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all linked via the atlassian account, of course)
< 1567874876 372760 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best part was the final email that said that my account was not deleted... and that I please not reply to the email because that would re-create an issue tracking account.
< 1567874908 889399 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the repo i linked to look okay?
< 1567874936 366230 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does Fossil have issue tracking?
< 1567874947 796555 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Fossil has issue tracking
< 1567874954 671742 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :link?
< 1567875054 998056 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a git host, right?
< 1567875081 234229 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it is a different system from git (and less confusing, in my opinion and some other people's opinion too)
< 1567875097 124691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: well it wants me to log in with Atlassian, so nothing to be seen there
< 1567875112 99284 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pulled it off
< 1567875127 843594 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll check out github in a minute
< 1567875190 792702 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: that may be a repo setting though
< 1567875208 301682 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs
< 1567875778 899344 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: BTW I’m always confused about my git repos so I can’t help, sorry
< 1567876099 846519 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1567876288 494936 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567876878 89405 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: like this one?
< 1567877034 287124 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a normal github repo to me
< 1567877058 504448 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: Martini. Gin, not vodka. Obviously. Stirred for 10 seconds while glancing at an unopened bottle of vermouth.
< 1567877060 27545 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that good?
< 1567877171 37968 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to be neutral. (I'm torn about github. I use it a lot, so I'm familiar with it. I dislike the fact that it was acquired by Microsoft, but not enough to actually switch to a different provider.)
< 1567877221 598699 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it good for hosting an esolang?
< 1567877250 975068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are quite a few esolang related github repos.
< 1567877294 736433 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's servicable.
< 1567877318 217519 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To use a less controversial categorization than good vs. bad.)
< 1567877348 907834 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, if an esolang isn't on the esolangs wiki, it's probably on github
< 1567877356 969417 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere
< 1567877357 905252 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567877362 3492 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they do not require you to change all of your accounts to Microsoft accounts, then I do not know why that would be the reason to avoid it. (I do not use GitHub for my own projects, although that has nothing to do with Microsoft, and is because I prefer Fossil and I think git is confusing)
< 1567877366 941032 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567877613 951937 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66016&oldid=66015 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-59) 10linking to my github instead of my webhost.
< 1567878663 291414 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I tried to figure out what you meant, since even in un-sets the lands aren't silver-bordered.
< 1567878672 154617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I reparsed it.
< 1567878686 609093 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic lands anyways aren't silver border
< 1567878990 398299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's true. Maybe there are unbasic lands.
< 1567879027 299907 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you make up some more Magic: the Gathering cards today?
< 1567879049 495968 :polomukuyu!~polomukuy@41.215.132.180 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567879073 506761 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1567879084 140503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1567879084 865210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to make up a different game but didn't get very far yet.
< 1567879170 94442 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What different game is that?
< 1567879209 682992 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh-gi-yu?
< 1567879257 353845 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(said it backwards as not to swear)\
< 1567879257 579841 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yu-gi-oh lol
< 1567879266 635937 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't wanna swear? damn
< 1567879325 858226 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone hates yu-gi-oh at my lgs
< 1567879343 73838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I was talking about assembling contraptions, not about basic lands
< 1567879348 714836 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567879352 947207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know.
< 1567879354 682804 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"silver-bordered land" right
< 1567879364 388255 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, M:tG is full of ambiguous words
< 1567879421 55073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, there are non-basic silver-bordered lands, including that one that makes one and a half mana of any color, which got way overpowered since mana burn got eliminated
< 1567879441 566629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's called City of Ass
< 1567879506 514254 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Contraptions do not have the same border as other cards
< 1567879544 662532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they're stupid borderless cards
< 1567879578 476546 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Germany has 16 states. The German name is "Land".
< 1567879602 763034 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're playing a limited game with 40-card decks, 16 is a natural number of lands to put in it (though 17 is probably better in practice).
< 1567879742 901103 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi b_jonas 
< 1567880041 313893 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical Study {2U} Enchantment ;; {1}, {T}: Chose a number and then reveal the top card of target player's library. If it is a nonland card with converted mana cost equal to the chosen number, add one mana of any color to your mana pool and then you may cast that card. This ability can be used only during your own main phase. ;; Echo {1}
< 1567880635 37831 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1567880658 802528 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you said to remind you
< 1567881015 996789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noon Mark {1} Artifact ;; {T}, Sacrifice ~: Add one mana of any color. Can't be used during combat phase. ;; {2}, {T}, Sacrifice ~: Draw a card
< 1567881026 874722 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your comment of these made up cards?
< 1567881285 679033 :polomukuyu!~polomukuy@41.215.132.180 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567882040 735350 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mind Stone
< 1567882041 695132 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind Stone \ 2 \ Artifact \ {T}: Add {C}. \ {1}, {T}, Sacrifice Mind Stone: Draw a card. \ WL-C, 10E-U, C14-U, C15-U, IMA-C, DD2-U, DDP-U
< 1567882055 244675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567882178 690899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Noon Mark => I can't judge that one, it needs an experienced M:tG developer to tell if it's overpowered, it's the so4rt that can be either broken or useless as far as I know
< 1567882265 205656 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical Study => at least make it "Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery." unless you have a good reason to want to allow it activated in the controller's main phase but with non-empty stack
< 1567882322 575565 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after that, I don't think I like the main function of allowing to cast a card from another player's library. it's something that probably has to exist but be so rare that I never meet them
< 1567882346 423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know if it's even right to have it as blue rather than red
< 1567882351 892733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be confusing if it's a creature
< 1567882369 397942 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other permanent
< 1567882396 81966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't think so. then you'll just control a creature owned by the opponent, which is normal as far as blue goes
< 1567882423 334813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normal in red too, and I don't know which color this one has to be
< 1567882437 375488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more confusing while it's on the stack
< 1567882471 916335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because owning a different player's spell on stack can happen, but it's very rare
< 1567882634 534911 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567882699 611043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure why black doesn't get any creature stealing
< 1567882706 686293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they get some?
< 1567882735 560823 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: may i pm you?
< 1567882738 907279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Enslave
< 1567882739 763633 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enslave \ 4BB \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ You control enchanted creature. \ At the beginning of your upkeep, enchanted creature deals 1 damage to its owner. \ PLC-U, NPH-U, DDD-U \  \ Enslaved Dwarf \ R \ Creature -- Dwarf \ 1/1 \ {R}, Sacrifice Enslaved Dwarf: Target black creature gets +1/+0 and gains first strike until end of turn. \ TOR-C \  \ Enslaved Horror \ 3B \ Creature -- Horror \ 4/4 \ When Enslaved Horror enters the battlefield, 
< 1567882751 830818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: you can pm, but it won't make me look at the interpreter faster
< 1567882760 232687 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567882764 539732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mark of the Oni
< 1567882765 502214 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mark of the Oni \ 2B \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ You control enchanted creature. \ At the beginning of the end step, if you control no Demons, sacrifice Mark of the Oni. \ BOK-U
< 1567882770 101638 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you weren't responding
< 1567882773 189362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1567882785 710680 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will look at the interpreter, I'm curious now
< 1567882811 848612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so black does get a few
< 1567883004 552248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the current OotS story arc, if Durkon was broken while petrified, how difficult would it have been to fix it? could they have found a cleric that can fix him with a Make Whole spell?
< 1567883027 118848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell if the Make Whole spell works for that, and if not, how else you repair a broken statue before reanimating
< 1567883209 536035 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1567883812 11544 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qgdfctcwfvubxhsg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567884586 407314 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567884979 632270 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xuyclhxtwdjynses JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567885433 409178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: how does the subroutine memory work? the documentation doesn't really explain it. 
< 1567885453 517831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: apparently the if/while blocks have labels. what happens when you don't nest them properly? is that allowed?
< 1567885951 578079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: it probably doesn't matter while you only have one source file, but why do you define the global variables in the .h header file?
< 1567886329 155335 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Land Competence {-} Conspiracy ;; At the beginning of your upkeep, you may change the text of target permanent you own by replacing all instances of one land type word with another until end of turn.
< 1567886799 546967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: also I find it strange how you keep seeking the program source code at every instruction
< 1567887012 957657 :LBPHacker!lbphacker@trigraph.net NICK :LBPHacker_
< 1567887594 654426 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567887877 153577 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: also, I think srand((unsigned ing)(clock()%65536)); is sort of a bad idea, but that only matters if you use the random state later
< 1567888050 344880 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: whoa, the findand function is even worse. it will search for the function all around the program, and seek five times for every byte of the program until the start of the subroutine
< 1567888059 784349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really seems excessive
< 1567888383 198797 :LBPHacker_!lbphacker@trigraph.net NICK :LBPHacker
< 1567888407 188379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you just read the whole program at the start, find all the subroutine labels, store them and their offsets in the program, sort them, and look up the label in the sorted table on subroutine calls?
< 1567888432 629878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then read instructions from the copy of the program that is loaded in memory, rather than fseek before every instruction
< 1567888678 360092 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I should think that would be better
< 1567889054 434212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, good idea. Lykaina: ask zzo38, he writes C programs in a style that's alien to me but may be closer to the style that you wrote here
< 1567889063 322845 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: look at the interpreteR?
< 1567889086 546776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the git repository at https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1567889145 471539 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I will look
< 1567889258 840667 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567889258 917736 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1567889322 903415 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567889353 321975 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably it would be better to instead read the file into memory and convert into a binary code while reading it, so that it can skip comments and so on. Many other things are also rather inefficient 
< 1567889359 685605 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567889360 618184 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
< 1567889393 288381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: perhaps, but the S instruction makes that a bit hard
< 1567889402 152642 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567889416 897542 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567889477 476209 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567889493 210696 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading it into memory without conversion would be another way.
< 1567889723 487061 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567889724 402249 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded
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< 1567890476 888999 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1567891513 838420 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you know (without testing) what -1 ** infinity is in IEEE floating point?
< 1567891614 968221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: my guess is that it's a NaN, inherited from log(-1)
< 1567891625 104653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you asked shachaf
< 1567891625 845714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1567891647 917819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait...
< 1567891652 736871 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's -(1 ** infinity) right?
< 1567891655 770633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's -1
< 1567891669 98554 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm guessing they mean (-1) ** infinity
< 1567891671 526465 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but idk
< 1567891797 260143 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i tested both on node.js but i'm not gonna spoil anything lol
< 1567891838 822786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Is there a ** to begin with? I'd think exp(log(-1)*infinity), which becomes NaN?
< 1567891854 613000 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i tested them on python and i got different results lol
< 1567891863 606025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C standard may have some odd ideas about this too
< 1567891876 96213 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they want things like pow(-1,3) = -1)
< 1567891935 877142 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf the python result is weird lol
< 1567891976 725647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -fno-math-errno -std=c11 -o tmp/a.out -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { double r = -pow(1.0, INFINITY); printf("r = %g,\n", r); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out
< 1567891978 62753 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :r = -1,
< 1567892017 749487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, -(1 ** infinity) is -1
< 1567892024 828061 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, js says NaN on that one lol
< 1567892027 923596 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: uhm we want the - inside the pow
< 1567892044 40258 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-1) ** (1/0)
< 1567892044 376199 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :js says NaN on 1**infinity for some reason
< 1567892045 975360 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.0
< 1567892046 642790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no we don't. if we had wanted it, kmc would have said that.
< 1567892051 576682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it was a trick question.
< 1567892068 436668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'd hope it wasn't
< 1567892075 333978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (-1) ** (-1/0)
< 1567892077 755540 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.0
< 1567892148 697503 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -fno-math-errno -std=c11 -o tmp/a.out -lm -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { double r = -pow(1.0, INFINITY); printf("-1**INFINITY = %e,\n", r); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out
< 1567892150 121100 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-1**INFINITY = -1.000000e+00,
< 1567892169 528108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, apparently, pow(1,x) is specified as 1.
< 1567892195 764771 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C, which will infect a ton of programming languages.
< 1567892248 155127 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567892257 350509 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fell asleep sorry
< 1567892334 873669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: np, I waited a day to reply too after all, so you're not late
< 1567892362 689558 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -(1 ** (1/0))
< 1567892365 209393 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1.0
< 1567892382 459016 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -fno-math-errno -std=c11 -o tmp/a.out -lm -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { double r0 = atan2(-1.0, 1.0/INFINITY), r1 = atan2(-1.0, -1.0/INFINITY); printf("atan2(-1.0,0.0) = %e, r = %e\n", r0, r1); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out
< 1567892383 841872 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atan2(-1.0,0.0) = -1.570796e+00, r = -1.570796e+00
< 1567892391 169799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -fno-math-errno -std=c11 -o tmp/a.out -lm -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { double r0 = atan2(-1.0, 1.0/INFINITY), r1 = atan2(-1.0, -1.0/INFINITY); printf("atan2(-1.0,0.0) = %e, atan2(-1.0,-0.0) = %e\n", r0, r1); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out
< 1567892392 562474 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atan2(-1.0,0.0) = -1.570796e+00, atan2(-1.0,-0.0) = -1.570796e+00
< 1567892408 334045 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567892472 92912 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that's not where the branch cut is
< 1567892509 386838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I don't.
< 1567892520 726579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -Wall -O -fno-math-errno -std=c11 -o tmp/a.out -lm -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { double r0 = atan2(1.0/INFINITY, -1.0), r1 = atan2(-1.0/INFINITY, -1.0); printf("atan2(0.0, -1.0) = %e, atan2(-0.0, -1.0) = %e\n", r0, r1); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out
< 1567892525 131174 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :atan2(0.0, -1.0) = 3.141593e+00, atan2(-0.0, -1.0) = -3.141593e+00
< 1567892525 881177 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where the branch cut is
< 1567892948 453649 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the main problems with my interpreter is that it only works when everything is formatted perfectly.
< 1567892997 302147 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :arranged, not formatted
< 1567893015 813807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: do you mean like the labels for the loops and conditionals?
< 1567893021 466409 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1567893302 450996 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :another problem is that i am limited by my programmimg skill
< 1567893425 490306 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason for main.h is that i reused a lot of code from an earlier attempt at this, one which foolishly used 4 .c files
< 1567893445 505434 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 4 .h files
< 1567893474 503135 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: it's not a problem to use multiple c files, I only said that you shouldn't define the global variables in the header, because if you include the header multiple times, you'll get multiple copies of those variables that way
< 1567893481 910799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that or an error
< 1567893494 878900 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1567893504 672038 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only declare the global variables in the header file if you want to use it in multiple c files, and define each of them in a single c files
< 1567893526 920641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :declare global variables by using the `extern` keyword, and without an initializer
< 1567893566 946299 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :define the global variable without the `extern` keyword or any other storage class modifier keyword
< 1567893661 98565 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouls i just move everything into main.c?
< 1567893672 482530 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1567893721 311356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can if you want in a small program like this, but you should probably know how multiple compilation units work in C in case you want to write more C programs in the future
< 1567893742 878258 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the `extern` keyword works differently on variable declarations and on functions declarations
< 1567893750 464967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on function declarations, it basically does nothing)
< 1567893774 38789 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit confusing, but it's way too late to change that part of C
< 1567894022 64711 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :that IEEE talk above reminds me about how many languages know that x mod 0 is x
< 1567894116 487734 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot which ones again, even
< 1567894286 616659 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567894377 161246 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1567894399 455758 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :check the repo again
< 1567894461 611094 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567894586 788790 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: now you have just one source file, no header, but no other changes. so no annoyance with the global variables now.
< 1567894613 998357 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1567894822 504629 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567894929 784049 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree that findiw and findand are pretty badly done
< 1567895127 694011 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap
< 1567895276 871202 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the S op, the one that allows the "Hello World" program i wrote to work...it may need to go. probably replace it with an external data file lookup
< 1567895338 74627 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :for readiw and readand to work, the program file can't contain extra data
< 1567895368 431562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: maybe change it so that instead of being able to read from anywhere in the source file, it can only read from sections that are specially marked for that, and have a label, and for reading you specify the label and an offset into the data block after that label?
< 1567895440 20735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or just allow to initialize parts of the memory with data in the program source code, and then just use ordinary memory reads
< 1567895460 272699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still asking how the subroutine memory thing works by the way
< 1567895503 202108 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what part do you want to know about? i lost the question
< 1567895527 213275 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I understand correctly, the top 4 kilobytes of the memory are for global variables, and mapped straigth to addresses
< 1567895537 814614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for the memory before that, there's some special magic address translation or something
< 1567895540 803100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work?
< 1567895585 664995 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :checking
< 1567895644 904870 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567895669 537151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it like a data stack, with the memory reference automatically offset by the stack pointer or something?
< 1567895832 551664 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567895851 848028 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@105.157.22.201 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567895893 519301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't understand that address translation and why you're doing it that way
< 1567895900 802193 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the ops '&','-','N'
< 1567895923 297466 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how they interact
< 1567895926 864615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks as if it allows you to look at only the current stack frame, not stack frames below it
< 1567895955 495449 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you supposed to pass arguments to function calls through globals then?
< 1567895956 311967 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stack?
< 1567895957 744020 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird
< 1567895973 334179 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's also no stack, but basically
< 1567895986 312125 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my first working attempt
< 1567895987 759212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like you can only use one fixed part of that memory within a subroutine
< 1567896008 854500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least directly
< 1567896014 266248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily indirect addressing lets you bypass it
< 1567896022 167218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still don't understand why you do this address translation at all
< 1567896064 754877 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you look at doc/examples/rand_0-99.txt
< 1567896066 649041 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1567896079 446787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567896106 109425 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an example of subroutine usage there
< 1567896266 231245 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an elaborate use of jumps
< 1567896277 938369 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and labels
< 1567896309 390374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: it looks like the RAND subroutine tries to make two formatted random digits, storing them to @F001 and @F000 or something
< 1567896339 768253 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, from the same number
< 1567896469 488477 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i wanted to use the &RAND sub in another location, i'd use a different mask number
< 1567896510 149186 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :each sub invocation has to have a unique mask number, from 01 to ef
< 1567896551 355086 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :main uses 00
< 1567896644 742933 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can only make a sub call 239 times max
< 1567896663 746926 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this making sense?
< 1567896683 402232 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to me
< 1567896704 319919 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that the subroutine call instruction sets a fixed base address,
< 1567896761 21437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the memory reads in the subroutine, except for indirect ones, will read only from the stack frame at that address or from the global memory area, and the 
< 1567896777 896343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack frames can't overlap because they're all 256 long and start at offsets that are multiples of 256-word pages
< 1567896792 222976 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567896795 45512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't get why this is useful
< 1567896800 38311 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567896817 474410 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567896818 498378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do also understand that the memory in those stack frames is preserved
< 1567896828 219504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you can call subroutines at the same stack frame
< 1567896834 544436 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the point of the whole thing? 
< 1567896871 833808 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it's probably not
< 1567896957 818138 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1567896967 607567 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567897007 878902 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to add the equivalent of a K op during a sub call, at the least
< 1567897086 840210 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(clearing the memory)
< 1567897123 497620 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1567897172 109347 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somehow have the ranges automatically assigned based on position on a stack
< 1567897228 83309 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of having the code define the ranges
< 1567897285 14352 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that sound better?
< 1567897343 270320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. would you be able to choose the size of the stack frame, like in the subroutine defintion, and access the stack frames below from the subroutine?
< 1567897381 489982 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "stack frame" mean?
< 1567897409 309130 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stack frame is the part of the memory that a subroutine uses for its own purposes
< 1567897417 619098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where it puts its local variables
< 1567897481 818239 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :always should be 512 bytes (256 addresses)
< 1567897496 399239 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may also contain a few other things that help for subroutine linkage, such as the size of the stack frame or a pointer to the previous stack frame to allow to reset the stack pointer when the subroutine exits, and a return address which points into the code for where the subroutine was called from, but you may store those separately in an interpreter like this
< 1567897532 183864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: hmm. but even if it's always 256 words, you should probably allow accessing the stack frames below, to make it easier to pass function call parameters
< 1567897539 513558 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other frames can only be accessed indirectly
< 1567897572 57115 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that a subroutine doesn't have to copy them from global memory area or access them with an indirect access (the latter would be hard unless you at least add a way to get the stack pointer) 
< 1567897603 922623 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have call parameters at the moment
< 1567897635 682176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I do understand
< 1567897658 273324 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you should consider to change them if you want to change how that memory accessworks
< 1567897739 456088 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try something tonight and push it if it works
< 1567898002 612440 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1567898135 253472 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i move the srand to set the seed whenever a random number is requested?
< 1567898152 701003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that would help much
< 1567898479 33801 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsigned char submask[SUBMASKSIZE]; // i think that's a proto-stack
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< 1567900963 938899 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: how about 239 subs, named 01,02...EE,EF ?
< 1567901015 741489 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, easier to make a stack with
< 1567901835 994652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf %s 11101001011110101100010111111100 | crc32 /dev/stdin
< 1567901837 197691 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :badc0c0a
< 1567902027 791741 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567902051 393624 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567902475 3558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was a fun little exercise: start with a desired CRC32 value, then compute that string of 0s and 1s)
< 1567902524 544498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't use brute force; that's feasible, but boring. :)
< 1567902590 864446 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why crc32 is not a cryptographic hash
< 1567902653 956236 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor CRC64, nor CRC128 if that exists.
< 1567902702 740053 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1567903064 485209 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, not yet in repo, but the subroutines are literally named 01 through EF now
< 1567903298 53532 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's in the repo
< 1567903828 12188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there's an IOCCC entry that modifies a file so that it contains its crc checksum formatted to text, I think
< 1567903842 593536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it's linear
< 1567903954 502364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I don't see why that would be better that just using absolute addresses inside those subroutines. the point of a stack would be that (a) it would let you use less memory than you need for all subs, (b) pass arguments so you can call the same subroutine from multiple call sites easily, (c) allow recursion. you might not care about all of that, in which case you just put the local variables of 
< 1567903960 507810 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :each of the subroutines to separate memory areas
< 1567904022 521057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even then my main complaint is that since your interpreter restricts memory access to the other parts of the memory, it's hard to pass arguments or return values to other subroutines, you have to use the global variables for it, in which case why do you not just put everything in global variables and get rid of the address translation instead?
< 1567904055 745572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: however, if you want to limit the names of the subroutines to make storing the table of their code addresses simpler, that I could understand, but it is sort of restrictive
< 1567904071 314116 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :would just force the bookkeeping on the programmer
< 1567904122 691454 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't know what you want to do with the interpreter, and you'll have to decide that
< 1567904129 9319 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll get rid of the address translation and make everything global
< 1567904140 235646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right, it's a linear checksum, so brute force is way overkill
< 1567904399 21340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear reminds me, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=940327
< 1567904645 245245 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is also a problem that's linear over the GF(2) field, you may try to solve it
< 1567904664 565761 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: better?
< 1567904677 44918 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb gotta eat
< 1567904799 441766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ^ puzzle thingy, you might be interested as well
< 1567904850 531551 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: what is better?
< 1567904951 974838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So according to the musl people, there's pretty much no cross-libc ABI.
< 1567904976 152228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you compile your program with musl's crt.o it'll work with musl's ld.so/libc, and the same for glibc.
< 1567904983 387168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems like a bizarro situation to me.
< 1567905008 80742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely there *is* a de facto ABI, which is whatever programs compiled with gcc and its crt.o do.
< 1567905027 460559 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1567905038 276324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are a lot of compatiblity issues across even versions of glibc, so who knows what that means.
< 1567905051 767132 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567905069 751202 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice I need to emulate what glibc's crt.o does, I guess. Which is calling __libc_start_main with rdx as an argument.
< 1567905100 555976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that Go *doesn't* call libc_start_main, so maybe Go programs only work by accident, since libc doesn't get to do its initialization in the usual way.
< 1567905338 78184 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's odd.
< 1567905368 277719 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's definitely a nonzero amount of things that go wrong if you write a program that just starts at _start but still links with (g)libc and calls into it.
< 1567905375 82577 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember specific examples, but there were some.
< 1567905412 124356 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xuyclhxtwdjynses QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567905434 20807 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"like exposing the list of TLS-providing modules, synchronizing changes to it, providing dl_iterate_phdr (access to unwind information for all libraries present), providing dlopen/dlsym/etc,"
< 1567905610 806957 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: git commit -a -m "Removed a broken local addressing scheme."
< 1567905769 63305 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1567906052 615232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go was in the top 10 (just barely, on spot 10) in the IEEE Spectrum's 2019 programming language popularity contest update.
< 1567906157 602374 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:103d:4f2b:fe34:4ae1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567906295 849408 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1d0b:a678:27f6:f1b4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds
< 1567906403 465155 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was happier about go when I didn't know that it resorted to reflection for elementary things like sorting.
< 1567906500 645178 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: You can also use code generation.
< 1567906534 868259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. C++ templates but without official language support.
< 1567906548 149799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp negativ
< 1567906549 176934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolute value:The absolute value of a number, also known as its cosign, is its distance from zero regardless of direction. It shouldn't be negative, but Sgeo is trying to break maths.
< 1567906554 5892 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is some official language support?
< 1567906606 691 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like Sgeo
< 1567906607 245186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there now? I thought not... I thought it was some kind of 3rd party preprocessor. Maybe I'm wrong.
< 1567906659 609266 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something called "go generate".
< 1567906666 669402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's official tool support, not language support.
< 1567906711 919520 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Generate runs commands described by directives within existing files.'
< 1567906782 13506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd use Go except I don't want garbage collection.
< 1567906841 511767 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is go an esolang?
< 1567906858 457199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh.
< 1567906880 139155 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you write it?
< 1567906884 478794 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: surprisingly we often end up discussing mainstream languages here as well.
< 1567906893 878038 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567906901 749204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Google's language called "Go".
< 1567907013 188760 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you learn programming in 6502 or in Glulx at all? Or some other one?
< 1567907045 839788 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, Sgeo and I used to play Go between classes at uni.
< 1567907077 785355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think assemblers should generate instructions like "mov $60, %eax" when you type "mov $60, %rax"?
< 1567907096 784395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bytes generated are already ambiguous and the assembler has to pick an encoding.
< 1567907147 687194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is there an observable difference between moving a 32-bit immediate into eax and rax?
< 1567907183 352591 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know a lot about modern x86 assembly
< 1567907198 396766 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I don't know what the encoding is.
< 1567907216 332218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'd be worried about operand size mismatches and resulting pipeline stalls, but I don't know whether that worry is justified.
< 1567907246 704290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, what do you mean?
< 1567907307 300442 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in 6502, the standard syntax does not have a difference for zero page or absolute, I think, and that affects the operand size and the speed too. But NESASM/MagicKit requires < to indicate zero page addressing, which I think is better than the standard syntax.
< 1567907327 106384 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If you load eax and then use rax, does that confuse the processor? Or doesn't it because it always deals with the whole 64 bit register anyway?
< 1567907386 585949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I recall that loading ax and then using eax caused pipeline stalls in earlier processors. Of course there the story was different; loading ax would preserve the top half of eax.
< 1567907388 641007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. You're thinking maybe something just looks at the instruction operand size and not the effect of the instruction.
< 1567907425 77412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think loading 32-bit immediates into 64-bit registers is such a common idiom that I'd be surprised. But maybe there are effects in other cases.
< 1567907436 804041 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think modern x86 is too confusing, and that MMIX is better.
< 1567907441 413276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, loading ax *still* preserves the top 3/4 of rax, I found out in here the other day.
< 1567907457 131888 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'd happily use a MMIX processor if you sent me one in the mail.
< 1567907502 699152 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah it's probably fine... the fact that loading a 32 bit register clears the upper half cures the reason for those stalls (namely, that outputs of two instructions would potentially have to be merged).
< 1567907513 801851 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Old x86 also is less messy than modern x86, I think.)
< 1567907528 713173 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` llvm-mc
< 1567907530 21170 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: llvm-mc: command not found
< 1567907621 888875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does HackEso have a convenient way to type instructions and see what they assemble to, or type machine code and see what it disassembles to?
< 1567907633 959910 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg
< 1567907664 950890 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :before i accidently say something someone doesn't want me to
< 1567907670 2211 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567907689 25476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Anyway. I don't know. For $60 I'd hope for a  mov imm8, r/m64  operation, I think, and then realize that that doesn't exist, then spend the rest of the day wondering why that is.
< 1567907772 93380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh boy. You're using Intel names with AT&T order.
< 1567907807 207328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :More productively, what do existing compilers/assemblers (llvm, gcc, as) do the processor software optimization manuals have anything to say on that?
< 1567907872 212989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nice contraction. s/do the/do, and what do/
< 1567907901 73223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I have no excuse, but the fact that an immediate was involved saves me :P
< 1567908046 940070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'int foo() { return 60; }' | gcc -O2 -c -x c -o /tmp/test.o - && objdump -d /tmp/test.o | grep -P '^ *\d+:'
< 1567908049 617959 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​   0:	b8 3c 00 00 00       	mov    $0x3c,%eax \    5:	c3                   	retq
< 1567908150 411027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at the Intel optimization guide.
< 1567908156 376370 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"12.2.2 Use Extra Registers to Reduce Register Pressure"
< 1567908158 410230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thintel.
< 1567908172 348678 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEEP
< 1567908220 831668 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't sparc attempt to solve register pressure by doing the opposite?
< 1567908247 152493 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I guess register windows give you extra registers, but they're windowed
< 1567908267 114096 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note that in Intel 64 architecture, an update to the lower 32 bits of a 64 bit integer register is architecturally defined to zero extend the upper 32 bits. While this action may be logically viewed as a 32 bit update, it is really a 64 bit update (and therefore does not cause a partial stall)."
< 1567908583 916996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Hmm, x86 has "ADD r/m64, imm8"
< 1567908589 986130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I probably knew but forgot about.
< 1567908599 379291 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes your complaint more justified.
< 1567908604 417896 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By complaint I mean wonder.
< 1567908656 266601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, it has that for all arithmetic operations, but not for loads.
< 1567908694 500330 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it has an  push imm8  as well.
< 1567908704 91664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/an/a/
< 1567908756 137826 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's an odd.
< 1567908776 421390 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often you can get by with the arithmetic ones, as long as you have a known starting point.
< 1567908782 785922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'mov $60, %eax' | as -o /tmp/test.o - && objdump -d /tmp/test.o | grep -P '^ *\d+:'
< 1567908783 939091 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​   0:	b8 3c 00 00 00       	mov    $0x3c,%eax
< 1567908786 626640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'xor %eax, %eax; or $60, %eax' | as -o /tmp/test.o - && objdump -d /tmp/test.o | grep -P '^ *\d+:'
< 1567908787 632654 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​   0:	31 c0                	xor    %eax,%eax \    2:	83 c8 3c             	or     $0x3c,%eax
< 1567908791 829111 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well.
< 1567908820 743280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so ironically, xor rax,rax; add rax,60 is 5 bytes, one byte shorter than the mov eax,60 you'd envision. ... right, just like that
< 1567908857 325729 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a 64bit target)
< 1567908906 550965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean the one with the rex prefix? Because it's the same size otherwise.
< 1567908922 764408 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As seen just above.)
< 1567908928 40168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo 'xor %rax, %rax; or $60, %eax' | as -o /tmp/test.o - && objdump -d /tmp/test.o | grep -P '^ *\d+:' | sed 's/^[^\t]*\t//; s/ *\t/: /g'
< 1567908929 180275 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 31 c0: xor    %rax,%rax \ 83 c8 3c: or     $0x3c,%eax
< 1567908937 2979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm.
< 1567908962 807766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, I made a wrong assumption about how 64 bit mode would work.
< 1567909034 880634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/as-encoding//echo "$1" | as -o /tmp/out.o - && objdump -d /tmp/out.o | grep -P '^ *\d+:' | sed 's/^[^\t]*\t//; s/ *\t/: /g'
< 1567909036 714496 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/as-encoding
< 1567909043 914097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`as-encoding mov %rax, %rbx
< 1567909044 824570 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 89 c3: mov    %rax,%rbx
< 1567909058 474836 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, \d is wrong, isn't it.
< 1567909079 869897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/as-encoding//echo "$1" | as -o /tmp/out.o - && objdump -d /tmp/out.o | grep -P '^ *[0-9a-f]+:' | sed 's/^[^\t]*\t//; s/ *\t/: /g'
< 1567909085 287623 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/as-encoding
< 1567909136 483742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`as-encoding mov (%rbp), %rdi
< 1567909137 388198 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 8b 7d 00: mov    0x0(%rbp),%rdi
< 1567909165 78098 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov eax, 60
< 1567909166 92212 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  b8 3c 00 00 00   mov eax,0x3c
< 1567909168 871654 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was that one already.
< 1567909176 542078 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an intel variant, though.
< 1567909177 456270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`as-encoding mov (%r13), %rdi
< 1567909178 444477 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :49 8b 7d 00: mov    0x0(%r13),%rdi
< 1567909185 158426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one's probably better.
< 1567909191 255492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did ask!
< 1567909192 80521 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/asm
< 1567909192 499736 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov rax, 60
< 1567909192 754691 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a  $b  ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err
< 1567909193 516794 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 c7 c0 3c 00 00 00   mov rax,0x3c
< 1567909217 377901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov rdi, [r13]; mov rdi, [r15]
< 1567909220 871066 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  49 8b 7d 00   mov rdi,QWORD PTR [r13+0x0] \ 4:  49 8b 3f   mov rdi,QWORD PTR [r15]
< 1567909250 169941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov rax, 6061626364656667h
< 1567909251 215962 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: too many memory references for `mov' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `h' after expression
< 1567909260 735994 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov rax, 0x6061626364656667
< 1567909261 865782 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 b8 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60   movabs rax,0x6061626364656667
< 1567909297 865977 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is `asm` based on `nasm`?
< 1567909307 103751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's still as.
< 1567909333 372647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov $60, %rax
< 1567909334 740630 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 c7 c0 3c 00 00 00   mov $0x3c,%rax
< 1567909335 409147 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, looks like it guesses.
< 1567909343 850492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh boy, it tries both syntaxes.
< 1567909353 924175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An assembler with a conditional? as if!
< 1567909369 887872 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tries as + objdump without options, and if that fails it tries "-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg" for as and "-M intel" for objdump.
< 1567909374 303873 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kind of clever.
< 1567909421 374920 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movb $60, 60
< 1567909422 260846 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  c6 04 25 3c 00 00 00 3c   movb $0x3c,0x3c
< 1567909443 488318 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now wth is that c7 c0 instruction.
< 1567909486 360751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :C7 /0  MOV r/m32, imm32
< 1567909492 233245 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOV r/m64, imm32?
< 1567909494 102419 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movd $60, (%rsi)
< 1567909495 101192 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `movd' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `movd'
< 1567909513 358821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq $60, (%rsi)
< 1567909514 308187 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 c7 06 3c 00 00 00   movq $0x3c,(%rsi)
< 1567909521 476039 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah.
< 1567909532 463274 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits bin/asm
< 1567909534 364030 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1567909537 701169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh
< 1567909540 370003 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`culprits bin/asm
< 1567909542 123485 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe shachäf shachäf ais52̈3 shachäf shachäf ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 Gregör Gregör
< 1567909556 225184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you add a feature where it prints the encoding in octal?
< 1567909597 753632 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that'd be handy for the ModR/M byte.
< 1567909611 865184 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not going to start doing that right now though.
< 1567909636 772203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's handy for a bunch of other things too.
< 1567909667 197125 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything that names a register, for instance.
< 1567909668 109762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq $0x6061626364656667, (%rsi)
< 1567909669 88610 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 89 34 25 00 00 00 00   mov QWORD PTR ds:0x0,rsi
< 1567909695 936669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq $6061626364656667, (%rsi)
< 1567909697 40966 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 89 34 25 00 00 00 00   mov QWORD PTR ds:0x0,rsi
< 1567909722 841715 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's confusing.
< 1567909732 366237 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's confusing because it's treating it as Intel syntax.
< 1567909760 314051 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And treating the $ as part of a symbol? 
< 1567909764 495254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it fails as AT&T syntax because the only instruction with a 64-bit immediate is mov r64, imm64
< 1567909764 685983 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq [rsi], 0x6061626364656667
< 1567909765 552318 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid char '[' beginning operand 1 `[rsi]' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `movq'
< 1567909769 341796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1567909782 170159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's unfortunate.
< 1567909792 236745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`as-encoding movq $6061626364656667, (%rsi)
< 1567909793 135692 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​{standard input}: Assembler messages: \ {standard input}:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `movq'
< 1567909808 17861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough
< 1567909824 123381 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's kind of an issue with all these "just try all the ways" things, there's a similar thing with the C one that tries with and without a main wrapper.
< 1567909827 587025 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov eax, 60; mov rax, 60
< 1567909829 871850 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  b8 3c 00 00 00   mov eax,0x3c \ 5:  48 c7 c0 3c 00 00 00   mov rax,0x3c
< 1567909831 865607 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, why *is* that second one REX.W + C7 /0, and not REX.W + B8+ rd? 
< 1567909849 330902 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, because that's the imm64.
< 1567909856 794880 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1567909858 789550 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's shorter this way
< 1567909876 373089 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a nice and orthogonal instruction set.
< 1567909894 263666 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've forgotten what /0 means.
< 1567909898 750369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's a thing of pure beauty.
< 1567909900 824805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the reg part of the modr/m byte?
< 1567909921 459546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1567909926 232854 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, /0 puts something in the mod r/m byte
< 1567909939 117964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also forgotten what rd means.
< 1567909978 392500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :destination register?
< 1567909983 333177 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno.
< 1567909986 43973 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "+rd", means adding a register code for a doubleword register to the byte on the left.
< 1567910005 956158 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pages just seem to format it with the + closer to the byte it gets added to.
< 1567910014 641926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But B8...BF are all mov rd, imm32 instructions
< 1567910049 54194 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do they say "REX.W +"?
< 1567910058 266281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm inc rax
< 1567910059 327430 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 ff c0   inc rax
< 1567910062 188588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and "B0+ rb" makes B0 .. B7 ones that are r8, imm8 ones.
< 1567910079 713217 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all way simpler in base 8, hth.
< 1567910081 620639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not strictly imm8. But the "d" is for size, not for "destination".
< 1567910106 133126 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say "REX.W +" because it was the 64-bit variant, which needs the REX prefix with the W bit set.
< 1567910109 176396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah I got that a moment too late
< 1567910120 151169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the + just means concatenation there?
< 1567910129 260196 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1567910135 674582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or does it mean you add (or) the other REX bits or something
< 1567910136 721342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1567910137 780943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1567910139 236931 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The + that means "add to the value" is typeset slightly differently.
< 1567910144 674182 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.
< 1567910148 360993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking at https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/mov
< 1567910179 222309 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, by "typeset" I really meant the whitespacing, which they've accurately reproduced.
< 1567910186 748956 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The symbol itself looks the same.
< 1567910223 669164 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the spacing looks like "REX.W + B8+ rd" so you can arguably tell what kind of + it is.
< 1567910257 7728 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space before the "rd" is a bit odd
< 1567910292 511206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But e.g. https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/jmp just says "REX.W FF"
< 1567910293 358755 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's odd especially because the interpretation guide says: "+rb, +rw, +rd, +ro".
< 1567910310 155176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And so does the Intel manual, which I've now opened.)
< 1567910322 726506 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: My version of the Intel manual says "REX.W + FF /5".
< 1567910327 663962 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For JMP m16:64, anyway.
< 1567910372 930314 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? Which version?
< 1567910375 695570 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :m16:64, hmm.
< 1567910379 567366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/managed/39/c5/325462-sdm-vol-1-2abcd-3abcd.pdf PDF page 1072 says REX.W FF
< 1567910396 150887 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure where the version number is in this thing.
< 1567910435 59186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what the REX.W means but I was confusil about the +.
< 1567910469 839366 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says "Order Number: 325462-041US" and "December 2011" on the first page.
< 1567910484 846943 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they have broken it somewhere between 2011 and 2019.
< 1567910533 904547 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although arguably the "+"-free version is more logical, because that's how concatenation works most of the time there.
< 1567910555 579902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm the version that I downloaded in June says REX.W FF /5
< 1567910556 921727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this manual still has +s for mov.
< 1567910615 32717 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect I downloaded the 2011 version in 2011, and have not updated it since then.
< 1567910624 99718 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intel manuals often use illogical notation elsewhere too, in the pseudocode that describes instruction semantics
< 1567910635 251655 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for the mov it has, REX.W + B8+ rd io
< 1567910637 499175 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a confusing manual
< 1567910766 760520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe a confusil manual
< 1567910771 488364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a confus manual
< 1567910773 665806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno
< 1567910890 682340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some specific overlong encoding which objdump represents using a pseudoregister eiz/riz to represent zero.
< 1567910898 562103 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x88, 0x04, 0xa0
< 1567910899 947467 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  88 04 a0   mov %al,(%rax,%riz,4)
< 1567910922 138862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ones with a SIB byte that specify the row that doesn't do any scaling.
< 1567910948 930296 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x88, 0x04, 0xe0
< 1567910949 876373 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  88 04 e0   mov %al,(%rax,%riz,8)
< 1567910980 467117 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gives it a way to disambiguate, but I'm not sure how useful that is because I'm pretty sure there still some ambiguous cases where different bytes give the same text.
< 1567910984 655916 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION blinks
< 1567910997 321848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a %riz?
< 1567911004 174073 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really.
< 1567911026 656270 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you explained it there.
< 1567911029 747377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's a SIB byte encoding for each of the scaling levels (1, 2, 4, 8) that doesn't actually add a scaled register.
< 1567911043 867387 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x88, 0x04, 0x20
< 1567911044 936845 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  88 04 20   mov %al,(%rax,%riz,1)
< 1567911065 195108 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x88, 0x00
< 1567911066 469783 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  88 00   mov %al,(%rax)
< 1567911070 408401 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567911111 282422 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: do they have that in 32 bit mode too?
< 1567911121 674007 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's just called %eiz.
< 1567911133 296701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun.
< 1567911169 233094 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ndisasm shows both 88 04 20 and 88 00 as just `mov [rax], al`.
< 1567911261 298773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's very convenient that x86 has a 3-operand add.
< 1567911300 740411 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand:
< 1567911301 788499 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x88, 0xc2, 0x8a, 0xd0
< 1567911304 864143 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  88 c2   mov %al,%dl \ 2:  8a d0   mov %al,%dl
< 1567911322 496890 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no disambiguating that thing.
< 1567911352 117965 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe there was some more specific way of showing it with eiz/riz than simply making it look different.
< 1567911357 197000 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/way/reason/
< 1567911397 533307 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, those encodings of mov dl, al have the same size
< 1567911438 785649 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as I understood it, the %riz actually makes a difference (since it adds a SIB).
< 1567911447 3379 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a service that lets you run short programs on lots of different x86 architectures/families?
< 1567911459 724749 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be interesting to see if either encoding is uniformly faster
< 1567911476 636547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, nitpick: "SIB = scaled index byte", so "SIB byte" is redundant.
< 1567911481 846416 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0xb0, 0xff, 0xc6, 0xc0, 0xff
< 1567911485 382641 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  b0 ff   mov $0xff,%al \ 2:  c6 c0 ff   mov $0xff,%al
< 1567911485 981926 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Those aren't the same size.
< 1567911503 690758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0110, 0146, 0213, 0364
< 1567911504 552547 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48   rex.W \ 1:  66 8b f4   mov %sp,%si
< 1567911512 124581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, good point.
< 1567911533 840918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does as even accept the riz stuff...
< 1567911540 969494 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %al,(%rax,%riz,1)
< 1567911542 252731 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: bad register name `%riz' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: missing ')' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: bad expression \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `riz' after expression
< 1567911550 518482 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's not accepted on the input side.
< 1567911570 488220 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may just be an objdump peculiarity.
< 1567911578 437851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should my assembler have different names for different register sizes?
< 1567911590 671179 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's another thing, why aren't these dump things ever round-trippable? 
< 1567911617 80135 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your assembler/disassembler pair should have the property that (assemble . disassemble) is identity.
< 1567911642 479532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't going to have a disassmller, which lets me sidestep this requirement.
< 1567911662 339303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the assembler should always use an unambiguous name for unusual encodings?
< 1567911673 895167 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should add a footnote.
< 1567911687 399285 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or possibly a hover-tip.
< 1567911698 591646 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was still in the disassembler mindset, sorry.
< 1567911717 289722 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that could apply to an assembler as well, if it reads in a footnote.
< 1567911734 656701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( mov dl, al )
< 1567911767 766818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0213, 0303; .byte 0211, 0330
< 1567911768 925092 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  8b c3   mov %ebx,%eax \ 2:  89 d8   mov %ebx,%eax
< 1567911788 89866 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, really I meant disassembler.
< 1567911802 260664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a tricky question what a /sane/ syntax for this would look like.
< 1567911806 406979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disassembling the above two the same way doesn't seem that bad to me.
< 1567911853 955030 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: `mov 𝔞𝔩, 𝕕𝕝` vs. `mov 𝕒𝕝, 𝔡𝔩`.
< 1567911856 506656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a very niche case where you want to distinguish them. And different versions of an assembler could switch between encodings, so you'd be breaking some backwards compatibility by writing one of them out as nonstandard.
< 1567911862 32763 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567911864 263208 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I see boxes :)
< 1567911878 855705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's not so bad, and it wouldn't actually break compatibility meaningfully to have a default.
< 1567911884 178436 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it'll work at http://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-08.html#lif
< 1567911917 976249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0211, 0303; .byte 0213, 0330
< 1567911918 910254 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  89 c3   mov %eax,%ebx \ 2:  8b d8   mov %eax,%ebx
< 1567911929 48027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %eax, %ebx
< 1567911929 988236 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  89 c3   mov %eax,%ebx
< 1567911933 299454 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov ebx, eax
< 1567911934 376480 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  89 c3   mov ebx,eax
< 1567911942 894127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah it works in logs (I had made my way to tunes)
< 1567911947 928513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should use the 0x89 encoding.
< 1567911979 762234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe just put appendices on the mnemonic... mov.mr and mov.rm
< 1567911984 737673 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I wonder if they settled on that just because 0x89 < 0x8b.
< 1567911987 421199 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567912014 485371 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, those are the same assembler so it's not surprising that both syntaxes used the same encoding.
< 1567912024 478461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I was thinking it was nasm because it was mentioned earlier.
< 1567912055 538626 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nasm does use 89 as well though.
< 1567912081 479159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :godbolt.org has a checkbox to show the instruction encoding rather than just assembly.
< 1567912087 607736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't work when you set the language to assembly!
< 1567912098 479099 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall that some people use variant instruction encodings for watermarking software.
< 1567912106 802392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: That suffix thing rings a bell, I think there was a university course that did that for an x86 variant.
< 1567912117 808871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I opened an issue: https://github.com/mattgodbolt/compiler-explorer/issues/1567
< 1567912119 418581 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That it used as the target, it was a course on compilers.
< 1567912135 910382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to fix it locally but then it needed a new version of node.js to build so I gave up on it.
< 1567912166 59094 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is Godbolt just their surname? 
< 1567912184 300762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1567912185 906797 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was reference to a thunder deity or something.
< 1567912189 941950 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, as much as I'd like a round-trippable disassembler/assembler, I also want a noiseless disassembler that just conveys the semantics.
< 1567912200 143489 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though their Twitter nick is now "Matt Compiler-Explorer".
< 1567912207 2612 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh.
< 1567912210 64173 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So round-trippability should be an option, probably not even enabled by default.
< 1567912236 787645 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567912275 12317 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must be odd to have your name forever associated with a thing that way.
< 1567912284 795618 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess it's more or less the same for mathematicians.
< 1567912332 681260 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's already weird when you're just cited in a paper. "As  showed, ..."
< 1567912345 647387 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I right I can simulate Haskell-like lazy evaluation in Scheme if I add "lazy" on every function's argument?
< 1567912359 875835 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be weirder to have your IRC nick cited in that way
< 1567912368 338596 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: yes.
< 1567912399 428778 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I wouldn't at all be surprised if someone cited this channel in a paper
< 1567912429 892275 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately "esoteric" is kind of unsearchable.
< 1567912484 45710 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric will remain esoteric, I guess
< 1567912512 616154 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/id/eprint/46869/ "cites" (well, refers in the text) to the wiki, though.
< 1567912579 313420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder, do compilers nowadays use the ah-style registers?
< 1567912613 96767 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, to generate FPU code
< 1567912615 742601 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mean? I'd expect them to just be subregisters of the big ones, right?
< 1567912630 272926 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: which are rare today... substituted by SIMD code
< 1567912697 924987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are subregisters, but you only get them for four registers.
< 1567912718 40314 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I wonder whether there's actually much use for them.
< 1567912739 900986 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in SIMD? yes, they are used. when you pack smaller values into a register...
< 1567912745 514761 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567912760 997691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does SIMD have to do with it? I'm confusil.
< 1567912827 840143 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can say SIMD registers have subregisters...
< 1567912834 775452 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: or you talk about x86 GPR?
< 1567912836 790586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, apparently it is used.
< 1567912844 95132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about ah/ch/dh/bh
< 1567912867 232698 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess things like "or $0x80,%ah" are justified.
< 1567912878 733030 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so I say, AH is used in the code working with 80-bit FPU STx registers
< 1567912902 967876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://godbolt.org/z/adJb7o used ah.
< 1567912905 596703 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:103d:4f2b:fe34:4ae1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567912959 19054 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't find anything in google scholar, but there were a couple that linked to the wiki
< 1567912970 432800 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite sure why it made it `xor ah, ah; or ah, 18` instead of `mov ah, 18` but maybe there's a reason.
< 1567912981 990858 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it just couldn't quite grasp the intent of the code.
< 1567912985 322338 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://github.com/DennisYurichev/RE-for-beginners/blob/master/patterns/12_FPU/3_comparison/x86/MSVC/MSVC_EN.asm
< 1567912988 946609 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :also one which talked about writing IRC bots in weird languages
< 1567912999 554171 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: test eax, ... would work here, but test AH,  is shorter ins
< 1567913027 297773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1567913030 609689 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: just a reason for shorter code
< 1567913045 473647 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ArthurStrong: `xor ah, ah; or ah, 18` is not shorter than `mov ah, 18`.
< 1567913051 741007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess "sub rsp, 8" is just to keep the stack aligned?
< 1567913052 709753 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK, maybe I wrong...
< 1567913080 263882 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm xor ah, ah; or ah, 18; mov ah, 18
< 1567913081 411758 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  30 e4   xor ah,ah \ 2:  80 cc 12   or ah,0x12 \ 5:  b4 12   mov ah,0x12
< 1567913100 392905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, that's bizarro
< 1567913142 779040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it might have something to do with the fact that the natural translation of `x &= ~0xff00u` is `xor ah, ah` while the one for `x |= 0x1200` is `or ah, 0x12`.
< 1567913157 91713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I couldn't think of a more obvious way to say "replace the second byte".
< 1567913168 810111 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempting to go via the pointer route just made it actually play around with memory.
< 1567913171 814908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the union trick.
< 1567913174 545045 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: compiler isn't good enough to optimize this out?
< 1567913193 212944 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567913229 898307 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, for https://godbolt.org/z/jUPnPk it creates the expected code.
< 1567913230 25359 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang has an entirely different encoding which doesn't use ah.
< 1567913271 923291 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The stack adjustments changed because I had -Os for the second but -O2 for the first.)
< 1567913291 874925 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The size-optimized `push rax` and `pop rdx` are kind of funny though.
< 1567913314 37874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :push rzi
< 1567913374 487275 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1567913440 584198 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet most of these optimizations don't matter that much.
< 1567913497 371853 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to have a thing try different subsets of optimizations on a program to measure their impact and see which ones matter.
< 1567914222 229617 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567914862 298880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think this implementation of robot find kitten is good enough now?  https://arin.ga/5wx9UE
< 1567915438 359794 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567915536 877654 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567915682 961830 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, et al: rewrote S to load 8 bytes directly into ram
< 1567915994 855498 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, first time i used what i believe to be an indirect load in a sample
< 1567916349 112569 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1567921252 129759 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567923904 423089 :emma!~em@unaffiliated/emma JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567924996 718204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions: math
< 1567924997 958331 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
< 1567925001 982315 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? locale
< 1567925003 309578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
< 1567925015 950904 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: What did you ask about lattices?
< 1567925038 51843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, do you know the answer to this question: Why do topologists like bases more than subbases?
< 1567927041 652789 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1567928152 737364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66017&oldid=65958 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+36) 10Updated computational class.
> 1567928197 615809 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66018&oldid=66017 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+12) 10
< 1567928222 765212 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567930790 953110 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567930817 702719 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1567932532 762655 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567932651 744798 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567932727 77420 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567935751 410506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: SIB encoding with no index register => there is a redundant encoding, sure, and it's useful for RIP-based addresses, but doesn't the x86 manual say that the scale must be 1 when there's no index register?
< 1567935920 416579 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: unambiguous name for unusual encodings => I don't think so, except for those unusual encodings that have some advantage why you want to use them, because normally you don't gain anything by using a longer encoding than the shortest one
< 1567935944 697023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few cases like nops of a specific length and two-byte ret where you may gain something
< 1567935986 769226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should assemblers encode "mov $60, %rax" the same way as "mov $60, %eax"?
> 1567936015 321199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Seed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66019&oldid=63558 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+4284) 10
< 1567936081 542562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though of course, that only works if the assembler knows about the latest version of x86, because there are instructions like the prefixed jumps that were overlong encodings on earlier cpus but have a meaning why you want to use them on later ones
< 1567936238 918444 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do compilers use the ah-style registers => I hope so, because xchg %al, %ah or similar is the recommended way to byteswap a 16-bit word, and that comes up sometimes eg. when loading a PPM
< 1567936269 588105 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.
< 1567936283 204041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably use SIMD instructions to do it better.
< 1567936517 85700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: hmm, that could work. it's strange that it (the S instruction) only loads single bytes into the words, but I guess you want to use this for hello world messages and such
< 1567936591 102951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: for more than one word, sure. you can even use general register instructions to do it faster on four words at a time. not for just one word though.
< 1567936626 8929 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you already gave better examples, for arithmetic with a constant in the second byte
< 1567936874 958472 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xzkcbkopdavulfdg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567936982 319244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, why does this instruction set have so many special cases?
< 1567937059 191895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because of historical reasons, plus there are optimizations that make it run on the hardware better at the time the instruction encoding is defined, even if it looks uglier
< 1567937080 512761 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly some of those optimizations become pessimizations a decade later
< 1567937119 754800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I use ARM instead?
< 1567937128 340019 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1567937136 370335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :use x86_64 because it has fast cpu implementations
< 1567937153 9535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to support at least both of those eventually.
< 1567937161 793954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can of course ignore some of the more esoteric features when generating code, such as the x87 instructions
< 1567937169 252684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the MMX instructions
< 1567937343 614320 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x48, 0x8b, 0x5d, 0x00
< 1567937344 645020 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 8b 5d 00   mov 0x0(%rbp),%rbx
< 1567937346 994572 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x48, 0x8b, 0x9d, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
< 1567937347 936950 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 8b 9d 00 00 00 00   mov 0x0(%rbp),%rbx
< 1567937355 633752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1567937392 131966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov (%rax,%rsp,1), %rbx
< 1567937393 13479 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: `(%rax,%rsp,1)' is not a valid base/index expression \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: missing ')' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `)' after expression
< 1567937396 211163 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov (%rax,%rbp,1), %rbx
< 1567937397 142049 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 8b 1c 28   mov (%rax,%rbp,1),%rbx
< 1567937415 244502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's not so bad.
< 1567937474 829334 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :try backwards, (%rsp,%rax,1)
< 1567937514 229811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that works with 1 but not with 2.
< 1567938186 888407 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is deliberate. the cpu is optimized for the case when %rsp points to the stack, in which case you don't want to multiply it with 2. this isn't required, you can use %rsp as a regular register, but you need more instructions to encode with it then, and a sigaltstack call to make sure whatever it points to won't get clobbered from a signal
< 1567938378 880794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1567938653 553774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :%r12 is a ca... unintended victim, you also can't use it as a scaled index
< 1567938718 235482 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` grep -E '\' share/dict/12dicts/Lemmatized/2+2+3frq.txt
< 1567938719 250454 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :casualty \ causality \ constitutionality
< 1567938722 407800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, one of those
< 1567938888 542918 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567941472 56475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? enrichment center
< 1567941472 779818 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? enrichment 
< 1567941473 328578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :enrichment center? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567941474 47189 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :enrichment ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1567941479 893619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1567942878 225967 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567943560 221380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nop14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66020&oldid=64701 5* 03A 5* (+18) 10
< 1567944972 909164 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION yawns
< 1567945611 477027 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1567945731 367314 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567945762 603844 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so
< 1567945766 686491 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567945850 583047 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :dreamed a got a legit call from microsoft about an account i hadn't used since high school
< 1567946023 112094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh no. if it's a call you got and they claim to be from microsoft, then it's a scam, and you shouldn't give them your personal details. even if they call you in your dreams. if this happens often, you'd better learn Occlumency to make sure you don't give away anything sensitive through a dream bridge.
< 1567946049 735284 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567946095 535612 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wasn't a real rl account)
< 1567946140 634807 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the dream sifters got garbage
< 1567946145 588619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call centers are in india, so they sometimes call you while you're asleep because of timezone differences
< 1567946342 6248 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you get such a call, just hang up. it's not rude.
< 1567946458 690165 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xzkcbkopdavulfdg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567946521 790061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't have those scams here yet, I only know about them from the internets, but we get our fair share of other creative scams
< 1567946570 470170 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't believe i used to play Go, don't even remember the rules, but i remember doing so with [a friend] in college in the coffee lounge at one of the tables.
< 1567946631 474166 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's normal. you sometimes have to try things like that before you realize they're not for you.
< 1567946695 693079 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only remember because i was trying to remember everything i could about [said friend].
< 1567946709 30159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, I tried chess and bridge while I was younger, and even bouldering once. none of them are my ideas of a good time, and I know that now.
< 1567946820 785135 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know who i'm talking about, right? It's someone here i don't feel like pinging atm.
< 1567946977 917047 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were like my best friend in college. they know who they are.
< 1567947060 274716 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the go board game got between the two of you
< 1567947082 370900 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1567947175 468829 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dropped out and moved away.
< 1567947271 941498 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :they graduated and got a job. the only "job" i've ever held was volunteering stuffing envelopes at a political office.
< 1567947392 315619 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i can't work now. technically disabled.)
< 1567947590 895115 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems my pandora station loves "imagine dragons"
< 1567951199 255460 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: have you seen the current "hello world" program, using the new S op?
< 1567951712 164760 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_01a6.pdf if this makes it any easier
> 1567951889 963922 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66021&oldid=65073 5* 03Gamer 5* (+0) 10/* Javascript */
> 1567952069 717512 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66022&oldid=66021 5* 03Gamer 5* (+263) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1567952148 186506 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66023&oldid=66022 5* 03Gamer 5* (+28) 10/* Examples */
< 1567952921 597667 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdjwpbotzdraoysl JOIN :#esoteric
> 1567952922 9360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66024&oldid=65875 5* 03Gamer 5* (+234) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1567952940 225501 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66025&oldid=66024 5* 03Gamer 5* (+5) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1567952989 493927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66026&oldid=66025 5* 03Gamer 5* (+245) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1567953033 425026 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66027&oldid=66026 5* 03Gamer 5* (+42) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1567953381 256942 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66028&oldid=66027 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1567953391 710487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66029&oldid=66028 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1567953439 700336 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66030&oldid=66029 5* 03Gamer 5* (+342) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1567953508 597265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66031&oldid=66030 5* 03Gamer 5* (+121) 10/* Interpreters */
> 1567953537 789171 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66032&oldid=66031 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Python 3 */
> 1567953551 772951 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07+-14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66033&oldid=66032 5* 03Gamer 5* (-2) 10/* Python 3 */
< 1567953917 477374 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:b14a:1f03:d8e3:d6d7 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567954089 601915 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:50dd:627b:a242:9770 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567954295 704865 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567955055 568858 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567955199 611857 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Spexty 
< 1567956817 255111 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1567956947 69365 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently working on v0.01a7. G is currently null, K is what G used to be [STOP].
< 1567956979 337685 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm why did you change that
< 1567956981 170026 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you need null?
< 1567956990 125570 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you just want it
< 1567956990 746400 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1567956993 88163 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a placeholder
< 1567956994 244411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm telegraphing changes
< 1567957008 146078 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :placeholder?
< 1567957009 279612 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what
< 1567957012 925636 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk if I follow
< 1567957015 239946 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsure
< 1567957024 466339 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need a placeholder
< 1567957042 245550 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have an opening now
< 1567957051 373588 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh at G lol
< 1567957077 853354 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the K op didn't even work
< 1567957083 614657 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :before
< 1567957087 904842 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was K
< 1567957101 163413 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_01a6.pdf if this makes it any easier
< 1567957110 940451 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably does lol
< 1567957211 96793 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :think i used the wrong git tag options for 0.01a6
< 1567957299 461633 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does J output a number
< 1567957314 252996 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :a char
< 1567957317 102397 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567957342 27270 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean maybe you could just make G output as number
< 1567957347 892899 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you already have that and I just didn't see it
< 1567957501 324930 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so G would output the value as a formatted number?
< 1567957528 767427 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of as a char?
< 1567957555 841242 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1567957567 668069 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try it
< 1567957567 704652 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if the value is 100, J would output 'd' but G would output 100
< 1567957823 427221 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea
< 1567957885 746447 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thx
< 1567957906 671775 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd make printing numbers a lot easier
< 1567958167 585448 :Spexty!2e3bf952@46.59.249.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1567958506 194404 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :done
< 1567958513 287025 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :pushed
< 1567958620 824147 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1567958654 965150 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make the compiled documentation in a moment
< 1567960317 997196 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_01a7.pdf
< 1567960330 843829 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning all
< 1567960337 388286 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc
< 1567960360 282146 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc
< 1567960457 434296 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's new?
< 1567960659 43453 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :was working on Echidna
< 1567960729 564705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: yeah, you have a flat memory space and indirect addressing, so you can easily write programs that use non-small arrays
< 1567960746 30314 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as a maze generator or minesweeper or suchlike
< 1567960764 830844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you could fit those into the 4 kiloword global address space of earlier versions too, to be frank)
< 1567960821 185919 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a stupid addressing system. now i leave it up to the programmer to determine one
< 1567960896 589064 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a case of the autumn sadness, already. Hopefully it’ll go away and won’t return ever
< 1567960907 215063 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything standing out?
< 1567960926 839578 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as bad, i mean, compared to the rest?
< 1567960941 246032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: are you also planning to reorganize the interpreter so it doesn't seek once for every instruction executed, and once per program byte at every jump?
< 1567960956 788576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, once per program byte at every subroutine call only
< 1567960972 124095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, it was five times per program byte at every subroutine call iirc
< 1567960976 124512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, 
< 1567960979 601778 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 now
< 1567960990 780378 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you planning to rearrange the code so it doesn't seek as much?
< 1567961007 435760 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i know what to do
< 1567961057 519966 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it works, it might become v0.02
< 1567961085 726995 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's v0.01a7 now
< 1567961102 431651 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there’s some vague magic in versions going up
< 1567961233 374725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do something but I don’t want to do any particular things coming to mind
< 1567961339 391604 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably means I underslept but I don’t feel other symptoms of that
< 1567961410 285463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :read a book
< 1567961663 148838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I read a few chapters of a web serial already but you’right maybe I’ll find solace in watching a series about Clifford algebras, I’m stuck at the introductory part which I basically know (but there would be an overal plan of the lectures ahead at the end of this episode)
< 1567961680 507834 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/you’right/you’re right
< 1567961697 203126 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :see I’m even sloppy at that extent
< 1567961772 669224 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m lazy to put earphones on :(((
< 1567962045 913741 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who needs neighbours anyway
< 1567962185 944494 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no speakers currently :)
< 1567962229 680299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either I put them on or I don’t listen to anything. And I’m still not done
< 1567962318 615905 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: long shot, but are you in Cambridge?
< 1567962324 655833 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have inferred all these things about planning with immediate rewards all the way to the goal of a plan but I just can’t
< 1567962336 359133 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: uh, no
< 1567962339 233524 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1567962372 256353 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My plan of using you as an excuse to socialise has been foiled
< 1567962378 727563 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I’d be there maybe I’d have a way better outlook on life :)
< 1567962382 18333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1567962389 860018 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: look now
< 1567962397 340757 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i got it
< 1567962608 480187 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I’ll try not to whine here, this is a good place and I’m not that depressed if I admit it to myself. And yesterday it wasn’t that bad so tomorrow shouldn’t be either. Though my planning issues wouldn’t go anywhere
< 1567962845 412053 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someome look at nextiw() and findand() in https://github.com/lykaina/echidna/blob/master/src/echidna.c and let me know if they make sense?
< 1567963215 841967 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know it works, i just want to make sure it does it in a more effecient way
< 1567963843 164709 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i getting a silent treatment?
< 1567964321 58543 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: please don’t think so
< 1567964352 582890 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet b_jonas or someone is just busy right now
< 1567964528 169950 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567964554 905747 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay. i'm a little impatient.
< 1567964576 915084 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a personality flaw
< 1567965962 572477 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was writing a survey software, and perhaps there should be some function to specify that a question does not apply according to some condition, such as the answer to a previous question.
< 1567966745 678268 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could start with a simple boolean tag system: some answer options are tagged and some questions are marked with prerequisite tags, maybe negations of tags and complex boolean formulas with tags
< 1567966745 787044 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example Question 1 has Answer 1 tagged with A and Answer 2 tagged with A, B; Question 2 has Answer 1 tagged with B; there are no other tagged answers, and Question 3 has prerequisites A, B. Then it’s only viable when (Q1 A1, Q2 A1) or (Q1 A2) were picked
< 1567966745 823200 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Question 4 has prerequisite !B, then it’s not viable when (Q1 A2) or (Q2 A1) were picked
< 1567966823 505985 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that could be one way to do it
< 1567966860 54408 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course the survey creator would name their tags in more sensible manner in the survey’s code)
< 1567966875 905836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: good luck!
< 1567967242 109389 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567969752 247365 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567970448 796621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: that's certainly better than what you had, because findand reads the file in one pass without seeking, and nextiw reads the instructions that you are skipping in one pass. 
< 1567970541 963259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: however, I think they don't keep the promise that whitespace is ignored, and in fact it looks as if nextiw tried to distinguish the __ from the _ statement by assuming that the __ doesn't have what looks like label right after it (it has whitespace) but the _ has the label immediately after
< 1567970554 806287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe you should skip whitespace when you're reading the file
< 1567970654 548335 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: hoever, (1) the main loop that's reading instructions in sequence is still seeking before every instruction, and I think you could improve on that because it's supposed to be reading instructions in sequence usually (when there's no jump or subroutine call executed),
< 1567970702 909837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: and I still don't like how nextand works, because it has to read the whole file for every subroutine call. ideally it would be nicer if you read the file just once, preferably store all to memory, but at least just store the addresses and names of all subroutines to memory
< 1567970712 94852 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I nominate zzo38 to look at the code
< 1567970764 286791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you want to be able to disable questions depending on answers to previous questions? that could work
< 1567970816 699462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: don't forget to add calendar time subtraction primitive then, to skip questions for users who claim to be under a certain age
< 1567970836 817712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want people to try to write those themselves
< 1567971704 863960 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why won't Bugzilla let me put in my own value for the "csv_colsepchar" setting? I get a error message:   The value "" is not in the list of legal values for the csv_colsepchar setting.
< 1567971730 76550 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The paste isn't working here; the value I put in is a tab, and this IRC client won't paste it.)
< 1567971821 844808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this for exporting?
< 1567971823 958224 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567972028 659345 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567972487 460802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
< 1567972520 213353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought the wrong non-refundable thing
< 1567972522 382844 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn
< 1567972536 55121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I noticed it too late
< 1567972548 177834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much wasted money
< 1567972924 201045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see... maybe they can refund it if I request it early enough, there's something like that in the rules
< 1567972952 169090 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wakes
< 1567972984 854567 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh whew, I think it can be changed (for a fee)
< 1567972998 457369 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a fee that doesn't cost nearly as much as throwing away the whole thing)
< 1567973054 531089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they allow changes within 12 hours, luckily
< 1567973305 722888 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jdjwpbotzdraoysl QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1567973361 877783 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb gotta eat lunch 4 hours late
< 1567973532 676362 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1567973556 274257 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567974120 843239 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1567974359 764256 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1567974740 683831 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :had a snack
< 1567975062 860616 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like some{one,thing} fell next door
< 1567975180 228376 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567975633 67396 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i agree with your suggestions, i just am unsure how to implement them.
< 1567975667 24055 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not the best programmer
< 1567975719 696523 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567975877 111683 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1567975877 546111 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1567976015 271831 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: should i load the program into the top 16k of memory, reserving it for that?
< 1567976061 865846 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :or top 32k?
< 1567976077 876687 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.230.227 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567976099 604239 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i *think* i can do that
< 1567976478 904048 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567976572 926260 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, my idea could allow for self-modifying code
< 1567977950 209967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no, load the program into an area separate from the data memory
< 1567978262 598787 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh...
< 1567978574 966009 :unlimiter!~unlimiter@41.141.230.227 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1567978733 137347 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I fixed my JSON in PostScript so that there is a option to convert \u escapes into UTF-8 (you can also tell it to just use the low 8-bits of each codepoint instead).
< 1567978868 112841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: can the JSON writer write such escapes from utf-8 strings?
< 1567978986 669512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: No; I have not implemented the ability to decode UTF-8. Any byte that is not a control character or " or \ will be written unescaped. (Maybe a later version could fix that)
< 1567979030 686265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. does that round-trip back to postscript with your JSON reader?
< 1567979073 127690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be better to decode though, to avoid writing invalid utf, since the JSON reader on the opposite end may reject it
< 1567979086 906020 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will still work with the reader; if it contains any bytes with the high bit set they will just be read in unchanged (regardless of the UTF-8 setting).
< 1567979095 455518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :evevn if you don't escape valid utf-8 that isn't special in JSO
< 1567980066 863267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh! fun weather prediction for tuesday
< 1567980392 339268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also nice weather now
< 1567980412 234071 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567980874 66219 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567981983 268861 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i loaded it to memory and now it doesn't work right...
< 1567983184 234357 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1567983239 587105 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66034&oldid=65471 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (-234) 10
> 1567983570 379123 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66035&oldid=66034 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+167) 10/* User Defined Functions */
< 1567983580 843675 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr...
< 1567983618 240014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1567983688 212112 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1567983837 773362 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made a version where i load the file into memory beforehand
< 1567983850 326931 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work
< 1567983873 598098 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yet)
< 1567983883 453979 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what's wrong
< 1567984081 49236 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/code/
< 1567984850 872993 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :not putting broken code on the repo
< 1567985748 359810 :sftp_!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567985861 601556 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1567985861 862208 :sftp_!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp NICK :sftp
< 1567987861 697158 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1567987920 48307 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have to change how N - Q work. i think the problem is in those and related code.
< 1567987943 837151 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(subs and if/while loops)
< 1567989134 277906 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1567991051 600029 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c0:6353:1822:bb91 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567991084 441043 :emma!~em@unaffiliated/emma PART :#esoteric
< 1567991321 594864 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c0:6353:1822:bb91 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
> 1567991803 742225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Encapsulation14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66036 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+6045) 10New language
> 1567991820 987590 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakerh40014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66037&oldid=65956 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+20) 10/* Programming languages we created */
> 1567991868 432812 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66038&oldid=65978 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+20) 10Add new language
> 1567992036 714526 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Encapsulation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66039&oldid=66036 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+62) 10/* Details */
< 1567993113 21111 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: got it!
< 1567993131 451043 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :except i had to change the lang a little
< 1567993152 250844 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and while loops aren't working perfect
< 1567993884 861023 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the repo as version 0.02
< 1567993977 981524 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:9140:c78e:93d2:1e3b JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567994245 978263 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:9140:c78e:93d2:1e3b QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567995568 990338 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :How clear is http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_02.pdf ?
< 1567995845 973563 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b0d7:9998:e733:77fe JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567996038 583459 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have to split if/while into if and loop
< 1567996069 7748 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :have 3 ifs, 1 loop
< 1567996094 596773 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problems with while are annoying me
< 1567996115 984577 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b0d7:9998:e733:77fe QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1567996179 718099 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to put a note in the doc saying that while loops don't work properly
< 1567996187 713180 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how bad
< 1567996413 357342 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reads: "while" loops do not work right (bug), use an extra "if" at end.
< 1567996740 924037 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone care?
< 1567996839 643667 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist
< 1567996840 582068 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
< 1567996896 348045 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1567996907 806913 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://pbfcomics.com/comics/cranky-baby/
< 1567996934 642972 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember when 192KiB was a lot?
< 1567997062 514237 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of RAM)
< 1567997285 177691 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vaguely, but I only really got started computing on a machine with 2MB of RAM.
< 1567998001 241162 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped.
< 1567998103 663528 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1567998115 987305 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb Taneb 
< 1568000701 85100 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568004471 600663 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4126:25b5:1613:2e34 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568004737 595484 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4126:25b5:1613:2e34 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1568006972 631511 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :new pbf?
< 1568007006 217602 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, is pbf updating regularly again?
< 1568007064 302453 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 <3 <3 https://pbfcomics.com/comics/command-respect/ <3 <3 <3
< 1568007090 165170 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been updating irregularly for a while
< 1568007169 385693 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's regular and I haven't noticed. I'm not sure the exact dates it's updated
< 1568007216 322676 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1568007662 356787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: pigeon appreciation day
< 1568007761 967921 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which day is that
< 1568007766 187554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :every day
< 1568007770 597216 :pikhq_!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, it's officially updating very irregularly.
< 1568007774 792201 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :june 13?
< 1568007776 453540 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568007821 29108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also june 13
< 1568007829 612565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the picture i sent you with all the pigeons
< 1568007852 766857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were so many and they were all flying toward the food-or-something on the road
< 1568007855 770243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was tg
< 1568007880 817517 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure
< 1568007929 271585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you sent me a heart so you probably saw it
< 1568007932 849052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :♥
< 1568007975 580904 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :k
< 1568007983 531704 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heavy black heart
< 1568008026 679146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote very heavy
< 1568008027 477061 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1333)  `unidecode ⧸🙼   ​[U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS] [U+1F67C VERY HEAVY SOLIDUS]   it is with a very heavy solidus that i write to inform you that unicode has too many code points
< 1568008047 419383 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that should just say heavy black heart
< 1568008059 41838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa
< 1568008066 121055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that solidus didn't show up in mosh
< 1568008069 542609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's really heavy
< 1568008288 950209 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heavier the solidus the greater the sense of dread
< 1568009003 250951 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you know that js console.log supports styling the log text?
< 1568009005 915256 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :console.log('%cscow', 'font-size: 80px; color: red');
< 1568009178 383301 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I heard about that.
< 1568009189 452263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I decided that the less I have to deal with JavaScript the better?
< 1568009310 236150 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in HTML it does. Node.js also has a console.log function but it works a bit differently. However, it is portable if you only pass a single argument, which is a string. Then it will work with both Node.js and HTML.
< 1568009657 265656 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: true
< 1568009824 410360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language should i program in
< 1568010075 39614 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depend what program you are going to write, I think.
< 1568010153 238883 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568010212 813104 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568010232 976044 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:60b5:b3a6:2c89:cdb2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568010503 977389 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:60b5:b3a6:2c89:cdb2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1568010805 2936 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can learn many different programming languages
< 1568010815 75841 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: pbf never stopped updating 
< 1568011857 603159 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:60b5:b3a6:2c89:cdb2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568013566 199212 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568013801 792415 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568013808 405318 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-75.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568016268 800956 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568016534 513020 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1568017419 925457 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568017623 992350 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568017624 290194 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568018388 213390 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568018515 217753 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568018584 615853 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I guess the Prompt monad's not so strange after all. Of course, I say this after only reading & thinking about it, not really playing with it.
< 1568018660 9196 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh.
< 1568018668 363655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know about Prompt monads but I also want to go to sleep.
< 1568018671 966203 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568018675 49708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll try sleep.
< 1568018710 297749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night shachaf !
< 1568018718 914931 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568019092 696975 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568019132 256412 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568019504 613908 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568019650 260880 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568021712 537892 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568022255 332304 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you thin about the prompt monad
> 1568022928 860619 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66040&oldid=57226 5* 03B jonas 5* (+158) 10Neumann's article
< 1568023140 76838 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Well, on the practical side of things, it looks like a good way to do "dependency injection" with monads.
< 1568023154 789905 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The term dependency injection scares me
< 1568023169 980416 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fear of needles?
< 1568024398 756739 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568024898 12673 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Lykaina
< 1568025232 713862 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568025427 72580 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568027455 963119 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568027676 765016 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568028622 113812 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568028814 854927 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568029082 808318 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1568029717 722102 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Spleeshmicannon 5*  10New user account
> 1568030237 838763 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66041&oldid=65976 5* 03Spleeshmicannon 5* (+276) 10Added myself to the list
< 1568031658 974132 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1568032069 41485 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forces herself awake.
> 1568034081 842502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66042&oldid=66016 5* 03B jonas 5* (+67) 10
< 1568035410 797196 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: thanks :)
< 1568035468 496205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on splitting source files to make it easier to track changes
< 1568035508 86043 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't pushed it yet
< 1568035639 410738 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: good. have you published the version of the interpreter that reads the program into memory yet?
< 1568035718 759494 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i pushed it
< 1568035806 286448 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gave it a max of 64KiB (not including whitespace)
< 1568036151 865654 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1179
< 1568036153 39124 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1179: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1568037549 584013 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: split version pushed
< 1568037853 355034 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568038789 716563 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568038992 133667 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi wob_jonas 
> 1568039774 34083 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66043&oldid=65945 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1) 10/* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
< 1568039942 968192 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndipxtjhmypptain JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568040777 136134 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568040878 195760 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Sgeo__ 
< 1568040952 151722 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568041175 98405 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "short"ened the mem[] in the interpreter.
< 1568041190 509797 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :to save memory
< 1568041333 393583 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to be 2-byte, why not force it?
< 1568041517 512805 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykania: good
< 1568041523 245185 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568041644 832806 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg wake up
< 1568041677 784248 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1568041852 407550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Espro14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66044&oldid=44540 5* 03Timwi 5* (+4) 10gramatiko?
< 1568042392 690224 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568042554 487336 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568042577 111584 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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> 1568042746 746993 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Espro14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66045&oldid=66044 5* 03Timwi 5* (+8) 10/* Examples / Ekzemploj */
> 1568043745 95380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Espro14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66046&oldid=66045 5* 03Timwi 5* (+7) 10/* Expressions / Esprimoj */
< 1568043831 755310 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a prompt monad? What is its definition? (If I knew before, and I don't know if I have, I have forgotten now anyways)
< 1568044142 740155 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html
< 1568044159 813845 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sort of a "configurable monad"
< 1568044223 522611 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The modern explanation would cast it as a flavour of the free monad.
< 1568044343 131792 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568044535 460524 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1568044630 357460 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It seems like a useful flavour, whereas "free monad" seems general enough to be (a) hard for me to fully appreciate and (b) not obviously a useful thing for me to employ in my code
< 1568044720 495042 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember noq exactly how I came across Prompt, anyway.
< 1568044725 58371 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*now
< 1568044850 244485 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568044976 637756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah the connection to free monads uses a fairly odd functor: http://paste.debian.net/1099707/
< 1568045002 214014 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568045002 698092 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Also, the explanation is ahistorical; the prompt monad predates the free monad fad by a year or so.
< 1568045204 540280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And personally I like the Prompt flabor a lot better than the free monad, because it expresses a familiar programming model: Define an interface for a DSL in terms of commands (with result types), and then handle each command in a handler (or several handlers).
< 1568045295 550974 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was all Ryan's work though. My contribution was the codensity transformation (that's an ahistorical explanation again).
< 1568045332 266004 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like my CodensityAsk monad? (I think the name isn't very good, but I couldn't think of a better name)
< 1568046462 143532 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I haven't seen it. Also, the Wikipedia entry on "codensity monad" is scary.
< 1568046532 375354 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Codensity f a = Codensity (forall r. (a -> f r) -> f r);
< 1568046602 760968 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, that is not it. CodensityAsk is: forall r. f r -> (a -> r) -> r
< 1568046612 275162 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it is a bit similar
< 1568046800 77367 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype CodensityAsk w x = CodensityAsk { runCodensityAsk :: forall z. w z -> (x -> z) -> z };  also  Monad (CodensityAsk w)  and  Comonad w => MonadPlus (CodensityAsk w)
< 1568047138 430591 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I might let you know, in a few days.
< 1568047232 63213 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I found Prompt via the operational package. I want to play with that a bit first.
< 1568047382 105640 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: btw, thanks for updating the solitaire game! You certainly didn't need to, but, I can confirm I'm able to build and run it now :)
< 1568047539 240405 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568048183 783629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1568048200 653362 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.
< 1568048284 334147 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568048397 684234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568049247 784528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :see? another match. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pocket https://xkcd.com/2130/
< 1568049314 624725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're totally copying each other often
< 1568049697 376762 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndipxtjhmypptain QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568050761 19497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` for x in 30 35 40; do ftoc $x; done
< 1568050762 240903 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :30.00°F = -1.11°C \ 35.00°F = 1.67°C \ 40.00°F = 4.44°C
< 1568052212 965092 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftoc 0
< 1568052218 503722 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ftoc 0
< 1568052219 263479 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.00°F = -17.78°C
< 1568052244 102635 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still can’t wrap my head over that scale
< 1568052313 967688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes no sense hth
< 1568052352 26777 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I like your CodensityAsk monad.
< 1568052556 960031 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither, which is why I use this calculator
< 1568052856 659453 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568056920 894745 :diverger!~div@92.119.176.20 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
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< 1568058134 319462 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.4
< 1568058506 670091 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568060481 242753 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568060947 801585 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykania: again, do not define global variables in a header file that you #include into multiple source files. especially not non-constant globals.
< 1568061432 230326 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568061783 494254 :orbitaldecay!~orby@c-68-33-93-133.hsd1.va.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568062080 387622 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568062180 780610 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568062322 228835 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aepoch14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66047 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1026) 10Created page with "'''Aepoch'''is a [[Bully Automation]] made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]]. It has some properties added to resemble the properties of a fractal.  == Spec..."
< 1568062333 262508 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568062355 580289 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1568062433 410098 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aepoch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66048&oldid=66047 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10
> 1568062451 30487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aepoch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66049&oldid=66048 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-1) 10
> 1568062657 767361 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aepoch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66050&oldid=66049 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+50) 10
> 1568062728 552627 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Aepoch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66051&oldid=66050 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10
> 1568062774 790301 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Areallycoolusername14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66052&oldid=65378 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+13) 10
> 1568062856 24708 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66053&oldid=66038 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+13) 10/* A */
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< 1568065139 682235 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568065504 278360 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568068377 733402 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568068645 570382 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568068682 111725 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Lrsomas 5*  10New user account
< 1568070108 116997 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568070162 866762 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568070521 977416 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568070638 177831 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-137.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
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< 1568071434 82285 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndakgrwgobuucgrz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568072027 958856 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568075218 414805 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568075241 772273 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568076933 237352 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568077140 374268 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i don't know any other way
< 1568077457 568246 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568077549 67919 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By definition, a bully automaton is just an extension of a cellular automata
< 1568077572 268144 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So would ALPACA still be viable to implement a bully automaton?
< 1568077629 610189 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:29:07  Lykania: again, do not define global variables in a header file that you #include into multiple source files. especially not non-constant globals.
< 1568077696 167925 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea where else i should declare global variables?
< 1568077712 583904 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and define
< 1568077754 937503 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's the difference (in C) between declaring and defining?
< 1568077856 29645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A /definition/ of an identifier is a declaration for that identifier that: for an object, causes storage to be reserved for that object; --
< 1568077889 117606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically you'll have a declaration that's not a definition (such as `extern int x;`) in a .h file, and a corresponding definition (`int x = 123;`) in exactly one .c file.
< 1568077914 753237 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :why shouldn't they go in headers?
< 1568077942 796986 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568077949 910871 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if you have it in a header file, chances are that header file is going to be included in more than one translation unit, and then you end up with more than one definition for the same object, which is generally illegal.
< 1568077953 914012 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With some subtlety.)
< 1568077969 956764 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas wasn't beclear enough
< 1568077980 293530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ix.io/1Mys (from the C99 rationale) explains it better than I could.
< 1568078038 451361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, "better" is subjective. But definitely in more detail.
< 1568078075 475078 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, it goes into the detail of what the standard model is, and what happens in practice on many implementations.
< 1568078143 356346 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C looks so simple from the outside, yet it's actually quite complex
< 1568078206 517877 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568078229 132608 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its subjective, but C++ just looks more natural to learn for me
< 1568078256 708176 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is weird, since my first language was C#
< 1568078258 472228 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it has at least the benefit of nobody accidentally thinking it's simple.
< 1568078310 980310 :pikhq_!~pikhq@97-118-196-215.hlrn.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
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< 1568078597 620580 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you look at the echidna repo and find the problem b_jonas is complaining about?
< 1568078622 934398 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, it's location
< 1568078623 840227 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, again, is ALPACA viable for the implementation of bully automaton?
< 1568078701 819017 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I assume they might've been talking about globals.h, and/or argnums.h.
< 1568078910 20884 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A declaration of the form of `unsigned long progindex;` is what's called a /tentative definition/, which (if a translation unit has no actual definition) is treated as if there was a definition like `unsigned long progindex = 0;` in the translation unit. So if globals.h is included in, say, cmds.c and main.c, both will have a definition for it, which is not strictly conforming C.
< 1568078973 699040 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming they end up in the same program, anyway.
< 1568079084 782109 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("If an identifier declared with external linkage is used in an expression (other than [unrelated exception]), somewhere in the entire program there shall be exactly one external definition for the identifier; otherwise, there shall be no more than one.")
< 1568079243 481798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many implementations are in practice more relaxed than that and allow multiple definitions esp. as long as they don't have an initializer, but that's just a common extension and not guaranteed by the standard.
< 1568079411 560531 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A strictly conforming program could, for example, have a globals.h with `extern unsigned long progindex;`, and then either in a dedicated globals.c, or in some other one .c file where it makes sense, include an `unsigned long progindex;` to provide the "exactly one" definition required for it.
< 1568079454 213637 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A lot of people would prefer to avoid global state entirely, but that's more of a design question than a correctness question.)
< 1568079489 249002 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :look now
< 1568079510 282975 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just pushed what i think is a fix
< 1568079557 520501 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any complaints about that one, at least on a quick glance.
< 1568079571 400238 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's better?
< 1568079585 832751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, assuming I've interpreted b_jonas's criticism right.
< 1568079592 647829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that it's exceedingly strange to put header guards *outside* the header files.
< 1568079638 377861 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1568079644 916061 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll fix that
< 1568079688 474353 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's safe to include standard headers like  multiple times. It doesn't hurt to guard against that, but you don't need to unless you want to.
< 1568079718 426867 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Standard headers may be included in any order; each may be included more than once in a given scope, with no effect different from being included only once, except [a niche thing].")
< 1568079877 981875 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :pushed
< 1568080020 160064 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean... normally you'd have   #ifndef H_DEFINES  #define H_DEFINES   as the first two lines of defines.h itself, and an   #endif   as the last line. That way all the different places where it's included won't need to (a) remember to wrap the #include in a #infdef-#define-#endif sequence, and (b) coordinate what the name used for the header guard is.
< 1568080095 510205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568080161 692686 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course from the compiler's perspective there's no difference whether those are inside the .h file or around the #include statement, it just treats the whole thing as a sequence of lines. It's just a convenience thing.
< 1568080167 691700 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :do i need to have the license in every file or just in the LICENSE file?
< 1568080249 95585 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :#pragma once
< 1568080249 420263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :!
< 1568080271 701521 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not qualified to give legal advice, and I've seen both done.
< 1568080271 864460 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that?
< 1568080279 53347 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's another nonstandard extension.
< 1568080332 383708 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what are you asking me to change?
< 1568080375 316560 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1568080378 662101 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just saying
< 1568080386 121247 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can use #pragma once instead of include guards
< 1568080396 296191 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if all the compilers you want to use support it
< 1568080402 190011 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568080402 269706 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's faster and less error-prone
< 1568080417 406109 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't. But it's true, you definitely can.
< 1568080428 410962 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :faster because, as soon as a header has been seen to have #pragma once, the compiler will not even bother reading it again
< 1568080446 463152 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think these days compilers also detect include guards and treat them similarly
< 1568080723 568038 :ARCUN!6cf5fc98@108-245-252-152.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1568080726 628727 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :aiui what kmc said
< 1568080754 684051 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main advantage of #pragma once is not having to pick an include guard format
< 1568080785 694735 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have actually had issues with include guard name collisions once or twice
< 1568080981 132745 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding the performance question, https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=58770
< 1568081112 494425 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for the correctness question, I understand a number of implementations have had issues determining what exactly is the same file, given symlinks and all that.
< 1568081243 862275 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you can very reasonably say that you've got bigger problems if, in a single build operation, the same header file is reached via two unrelated paths.
< 1568081294 378203 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably happens
< 1568081400 803422 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :pushed
< 1568081415 599077 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie's advice
< 1568081642 962254 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568081812 128951 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should probably have a look at what this language is all about in the first place. Does it have anything to do with the spiky mammals or is that just a name?
< 1568081822 219825 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :name
< 1568081962 947665 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. They're pretty cute.
< 1568081973 850503 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_02a2.pdf
> 1568082127 755993 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NotBrainFuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66054 5* 03Spleeshmicannon 5* (+1325) 10Created page with "'''NotBrainFuck''' (or not brainfuck) is an extension of brainfuck by Jack Benson ([[User:Spleeshmicannon|Spleeshmicannon]]). It adds 8 new symbols to make it easier for begin..."
< 1568082404 362806 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ndakgrwgobuucgrz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568082870 131304 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Echidna was originally designed to be run on an Arduino, but memory requirements eventually made this unfeasable, with the Arduino version being shelved.
< 1568082926 30486 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :I then modified the PC version to use far more memory.
< 1568083017 664375 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually, i figured out how to load the file into ram and run the program from there
< 1568083070 189444 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 20 Ops, from G - Z
< 1568083164 928975 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter has problems with the if/while loops on while mode that i am unsure how to debug
< 1568083351 467038 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the moment, i feel it's lacking in ops, and i think i can be willing to have ops 0-9 and A-F if needed (i wanted to not use those)
< 1568083455 172785 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :any questions?
< 1568083683 72280 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at this point, because I have to sleep instead. But I like the L operation, it kind of reminds me of INTERCAL's "select" operator.
< 1568083722 819714 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally! Someone who likes L!
< 1568084228 482375 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: even though it doesn't have "pragma", how do you feel about Echidna?
< 1568084261 663205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure if you are still active)
< 1568084332 517170 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about echidna
< 1568084361 134695 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what does arg1<=1 do in L?
< 1568084365 827269 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :read whan i told fuzzie
< 1568084384 463503 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna_v0_02a2.pdf took me a while to find it
< 1568084396 142088 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :might want to put that on the esolang wiki or the github
< 1568084431 889366 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(was just in scrollback but /me never reads that far
< 1568084499 193020 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh <<=
< 1568086813 868205 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568088678 18557 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
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< 1568088903 766434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : do i need to have the license in every file or just in the LICENSE file? ← I don't know whether or not it's legally necessary to put the license in every file, but a) it doesn't hurt and b) there are a lot of good practical reasons to do it that way
< 1568088927 210778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're using a license written professionally, it'll normally have an appendix giving approved wording to place in every file (which is shorter than the license itself)
< 1568090237 884921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
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< 1568101395 967700 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568102447 3328 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568104852 920932 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Ping timeout: 622 seconds
< 1568104925 516212 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568104996 222500 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykiana: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-07.html#lrh
< 1568105011 501361 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about global variables
< 1568105048 4005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w
< 1568105054 582446 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:mother//A mother is a person who practices mothology. \ dc//dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[') \ wat//ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው። \ atwp//According to Wikipedia, ATWP means "Air Transport White Paper". \ mussel//Mussels are boily's natural enemies. Fortunately he runs faster than them.
< 1568105074 715601 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: ^
< 1568105087 141999 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree on wat
< 1568105115 201397 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc globals.h was included to two C source files
< 1568105289 488762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should figure out a way to make global variables work across .so reloads.
< 1568105528 733264 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568105601 81206 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whether there's a separate long license and you only include a short text and reference to it, or whether there's a short license that you include in full, also seems to be a matter of taste between licenses. 
< 1568105692 561192 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568105698 939038 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:19c1:e4fc:a6e0:6ddd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568105751 859324 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The X11 license, most BSD-like licenses, and the boost license are short enough, and at least the FAQ https://www.boost.org/users/license.html considers this an advantage. I personally don't like the boost license though because it doesn't mention a time limit or geograhpical area (eg. "worldwide perpetual").
< 1568105897 633617 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas the apache license, which is pretty similar to the boost license, is too long to embed into every source file, so for that, they use just a short version with reference in source files.
< 1568105947 254324 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In effect, the short licenses don't tend to work, because many project derive parts from code with various other licenses, so they have to include a separate notice anyway to tell which part comes with what license.
< 1568105978 469040 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wtfpl works
< 1568106037 590489 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is especially typical for big amalgam projects like ffmpeg and mplayer, each of which embed like a hundred codecs and a large part of each other (it's a miracle that they haven't yet blown up exponentially by recursively embedding each other).
< 1568106178 852935 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly the creative commons licenses are also too long to embed.
< 1568106362 470461 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MIT license requires that you include it, so all the projects that have only a one-line statement to the effect of "License: MIT" aren't actually under the MIT license.
< 1568106380 572985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And y'know what? This matters almost not at all
< 1568106529 731677 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure, even the short disclaimers are always at least a few lines long, except for the ones that are equivalent to the WTFPL, such as the sqlite non-license.
< 1568106609 186174 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the irony though.
< 1568106611 171968 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The short form reference to the apache license is 15 lines long
< 1568106769 554891 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpresseyllo
< 1568106778 637622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the Prompt thing you were talking about the other day?
< 1568106830 288273 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's still shorter than the 24 long line boost license 
< 1568106855 446285 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/MonadPrompt-1.0.0.5/docs/Control-Monad-Prompt.html
< 1568106871 327051 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's not related to delimited continuations
< 1568106883 414750 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION frowns
< 1568106905 296031 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's not related to delimited continuations
< 1568106947 151533 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should say, it's not *obviously* related to delimited continuations
< 1568107080 234484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that thing.
< 1568107174 493370 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "just" the free monad, right?
< 1568107182 915556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the free monad of Coyoneda of f.
< 1568107235 46092 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf:  cpressey: yeah the connection to free monads uses a fairly odd functor: http://paste.debian.net/1099707/
< 1568107318 766054 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe you can make more sense of that than I can)
< 1568107521 507250 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that functor is sometimes called Coyoneda.
< 1568107530 752909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the free functor on a type constructor, if that means something to you.
< 1568107544 15228 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, sorry
< 1568107593 412384 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. It's not that useful a statement anyway.
< 1568107625 512820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If my computer wasn't presently so slow I could type a better explanation. One moment.
< 1568107628 262289 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary
< 1568107648 56698 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wakes
< 1568107651 647090 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568107719 465702 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'll just try anyway.
< 1568107772 235601 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568107790 3440 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykania: I haven't yet looked at how you're now reading the source code into memory and how you use it, or changing the data memory to 16-bit, so I can't comment on that yet
< 1568107842 461470 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am doing the global variable thing now
< 1568107851 563238 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't remember how much Haskell you know.
< 1568107884 470779 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type is this: data Coyoneda f a = forall x. Coyoneda (f x) (x -> a)
< 1568107903 725959 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and using the kind of header guards that go on top and bottom of every header file
< 1568108167 207453 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about fmap fusion, or something.
< 1568108187 606657 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns (fmap f . fmap g . fmap h) into fmap (f . g . h)
< 1568108218 1847 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568108347 958539 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant that, at the moment, Echidna uses the global variable suggestion and the kind of header guards that gow on top an bottom of each header file.
< 1568108962 299211 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :README.md pushed
> 1568109450 392450 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66055&oldid=66042 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+434) 10Updating the info to match the Github README.
< 1568110204 422193 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :README.md pushed again
< 1568110247 629302 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't really know Haskell, in the sense that I've never built up good intuitions about anything in its type system.
< 1568110332 710749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't really know what a monad is.
< 1568110348 704100 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monad
< 1568110350 40141 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
< 1568110350 359895 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? burrito
< 1568110351 521363 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Burritos are like Monads, according to Joe. See https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
< 1568110363 881203 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote burrito
< 1568110364 813786 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :875)  btw, I finally discovered what a burrito was, recently   they're kind of nice to eat   but don't really resemble monads \ 908)  well what is time   imo: an illusion [...]  elliott, I think it's more like a burrito   If you have too much of time you get ill   But damn it felt good   You only get out what you put in, unless your time was made by someone else, which isn't as fun   1568110814 818402 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NotBrainFuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66056&oldid=66054 5* 03A 5* (-110) 10Here you go
< 1568110828 863493 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1568110834 899529 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course some programs are easier to write if you do use the ST monad, to be able to prove that a function is pure even if it uses certain impure internals
< 1568110843 732200 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in mutable arrays)
< 1568110848 424473 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have a copy of Cakes, Custard and Category Theory but I haven't read it yet)
< 1568110858 434346 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: You don't *have* to use interactive IO to write, say, a compiler
< 1568110871 101491 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that deep a read
< 1568110896 999028 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sure you do, at least if it's a compiler for a language where files can include other files and you don't know which files in advance
< 1568110900 252989 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but I keep wanting to follow along with the exercises and that means going to the shop and buying ingredients
< 1568110926 283678 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that includes not only preprocessor includes, but indirect linker dependencies 
< 1568110989 992661 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: So your argument is that you have to understand a dozen common monad transformers in order to program in Haskell because the compilers you write in Haskell are necessarily ones with #include statements
< 1568111012 830809 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and if you have a compiler where you aren't sure that it can't be very slow (or infinitely slow) for some input files, then it may be better to write error/warning messages early, before you finish compiling everything
< 1568111046 40562 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, that's not my argument. my argument is that you don't always write compilers, so it's worth to understand at least how to use IO interactively;
< 1568111074 169302 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568111080 214992 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that I want to use mutable arrays for efficiently, for which it's worth to understand ST to be able to use them inside pure functions in a way that the compiler can prove safe.
< 1568111113 300073 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably aren't required to use the other monads or monad transformers directly.
< 1568111114 238001 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Right, well as I said, I *don't* understand them. It doesn't stick. Should I stop programming in Haskell?
< 1568111124 581310 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you'll use lists, but not specifically their monad instance.
< 1568111154 242125 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, because if you stop then you'll probably never understand them, unless you program something very similar to haskell instead
< 1568111181 222501 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's been 10 years. I don't have any reason to assume I'll ever understand them.
< 1568111205 223038 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you need to understand them to use them?
< 1568111241 68252 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how about the special case of IO where you glue a >>= onto every IO primitive (except the ones that terminate the program), but don't use >>= with a composed value on the left?
< 1568111262 591634 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like 12 years: I wrote this in 2007: https://github.com/catseye/Hev/blob/master/src/Hev.hs
< 1568111278 352094 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, apparently I started it in 2005, so: 14 years.
< 1568111325 673160 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't use a single monad, except in the driver code that reads cmdline arguments and the input file and outputs the result.
< 1568111414 689816 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you written code in non-haskell languages that does interactive IO in an event-driven continuation-passings style where you write explicit continuations to run when an event fires, instead of language support for threads with blocking IO?
< 1568111481 593454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because as far as I understand, if you do that style consistently so that you do it for every IO operation, even for ones that don't block or the ones that only count as IO in haskell (i.e. accessing mutable state), you get IO monad with >>= only on the right of primitives
< 1568111504 573885 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's how I understand IO, but it could be wrong, or it could be just one of the many food metaphors for IO
< 1568111524 908040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think Haskell people typically say "monoid in the category of endofunctors" as a joke to try to make things complicated?
< 1568111545 529447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very complicated but also not very helpful.
< 1568111547 462345 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone who understands haskell a bit more can tell me whether that's a reasonable way to think of it
< 1568111559 290833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this is irrelevant for Coyoneda, which is a pretty simple type.
< 1568111564 93828 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, I think that's intended as a joke
< 1568111568 985678 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1568111580 613073 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pretty simple type"
< 1568111588 641863 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, that's pretty reasonable.
< 1568111609 381276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once wrote this: https://stackoverflow.com/a/13538351
< 1568111759 819713 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh wow, that mentions that IO mechanism that I've only seen in that one crazy esolang
< 1568111782 830729 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: is that crazy esolang called Haskell?
< 1568111829 507214 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_K
< 1568111842 984795 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, Haskell has a different IO mechanism
< 1568111863 584577 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which that writeup also mentions
< 1568111872 422904 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what a surprise)
< 1568111955 616149 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ok, but that doesn't seem to explain how you can write IO as an abstraction of ContIO. is there an explanation for that somewhere?
< 1568111979 187772 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Lazy K has the same IO mechanism as Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
< 1568112031 633927 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ok, then it's two crazy esolangs
< 1568112034 959360 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568112040 626834 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough
< 1568112046 259007 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's fairly similar to Binary Lambda Calculus
< 1568112058 49707 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which uses strings of bits, I believe, rather than characters or codepoints)
< 1568112115 676546 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I think if I saw that esolang, it didn't stick in my head
< 1568112136 149173 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in my hair or whatever
< 1568112161 689183 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it has a hard to remember name
< 1568112211 469972 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not particularly original
< 1568112432 310092 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: explicit continuations on event handlers sounds like Javascript with Promises.
> 1568112475 150504 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66057 5* 03A 5* (+205) 10New unimplemented thought experiment
< 1568112744 266083 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a programming lanugage strictly following the actor model, how is input (e.g. command line input, key presses) handled?
< 1568112779 975179 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of special actor?
< 1568112781 783220 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the actor model is
< 1568112801 615618 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure, if it's foo-oriented then keypresses are probably a kind of foo
< 1568112805 772894 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actor_model
< 1568112830 797427 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: What do you mean?
< 1568112877 815994 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: is that like holywood actors who must look as beautiful as a fashion model all the time?
< 1568112900 499399 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I think it's more like models who gain popularity and want more money sometimes start acting too
< 1568112901 668135 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I can put it this way: if I were designing an actor language, I'd make the source of keystrokes an actor
< 1568112929 773479 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, in Erlang, iirc,it's not like that, you just call io:readln() like everyone else
< 1568113446 245597 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see having to look at all I/O like you're writing Promises in Javascript (I guess) but it escapes me why anyone would want to model *non*-I/O things like that.
< 1568113552 705401 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too long ago, I saw a unification algorithm written in Haskell, built with a state monad.
< 1568113555 42598 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whyyyyyyyyyyyy
< 1568113566 476694 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's actually two steps. firstly they model not just interactive blocking IO, but every IO, even the ones that can't block, as the same sort of IO action;
< 1568113575 945916 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they model access to mutable state the same way
< 1568113604 939466 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and inter-thread synchronization as well
< 1568113655 157426 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the reason is always that they want the language to be pure functional
< 1568113681 430181 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with every function being deterministic and side-effectless
< 1568113715 557537 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language that's pure functional, where every library has an interface that mocks an effectful language.  Again I ask: whyyyyyyy
< 1568113754 727124 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would just be a different language without. if you don't like it, use ocaml or rust or something.
< 1568113768 26192 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that applies to me, I don't use haskell for anything anymore
< 1568113780 438065 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, except some lambdabot one-liners or something)
< 1568113820 479602 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like it, though, because it's essentially the only popular language that actually is purely functional.
< 1568113857 214905 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you do want a purely functional language, then you need to have those abstractions over everything that isn't purely functional
< 1568113859 933185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If users of the only popular language that's purely functional write their algorithms in terms of state mutation, maybe that means those algorithms are best expressed as state mutation.
< 1568113904 426077 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: at least if you care about real-world efficiency
< 1568113941 720767 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or interaction with anything outside the program
< 1568114128 255512 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568114970 504298 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't, so, until a better language comes along, I'll just learn to live with the alienation, I suppose.
< 1568115268 373364 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just use a language that isn't pure functional, but use the pure functional subset for much of your code
< 1568115320 315035 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do that sometimes with Scheme.
< 1568115350 357194 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you do it with ocaml?
< 1568115371 298745 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't write OCaml.
< 1568115598 251078 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least I understand continuations. I think.
< 1568115605 135495 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes for a walk
< 1568115615 462413 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, more schema incompatibility
< 1568115625 65711 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only forwards, not backwards
< 1568115634 544617 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait
< 1568115644 959591 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is backwards compatibility and which one is forward compatibility?
< 1568115652 598371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's only backwards, not forwards
< 1568115788 996783 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568116229 733749 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no
> 1568117585 673372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66058&oldid=66057 5* 03A 5* (+659) 10
< 1568117784 899449 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a positive note, a nonstandard formulation of function composition that I came up with for an experimental concatenative language I'm working on, does appear to be associative and have an identity. So I'll be able to keep working on that.
< 1568117851 633688 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that sounds scary
< 1568117947 971507 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, I guess, any monoid operation can be thought of as function composition of the bound products with elements of the monoid
< 1568117968 344610 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also known as "every group is a permutation group"
> 1568118021 372244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66059&oldid=66058 5* 03A 5* (+1103) 10
> 1568118508 449967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66060&oldid=66059 5* 03A 5* (+1031) 10/* Execution scheme */ More of the execution
< 1568118526 510605 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568118855 175354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66061&oldid=66060 5* 03A 5* (+585) 10Complete odd process
< 1568119015 626061 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble NICK :\emph{grumble}
< 1568119077 6780 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568119103 740757 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
> 1568119225 271470 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66062&oldid=66061 5* 03A 5* (+564) 10
< 1568120230 545083 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found the unification algorithm I mentioned above, if anyone is interested: https://github.com/parsonsmatt/unification/blob/master/Unification.pdf
< 1568121410 981772 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568121414 106049 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66063&oldid=66062 5* 03A 5* (+370) 10/* Vafix in comparision with a normal infix */
< 1568122321 304738 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg wake
< 1568122400 213821 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568123574 905449 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568124428 539415 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568124979 972762 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568125571 873229 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Encapsulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66064&oldid=66039 5* 03A 5* (+100) 10/* Computational class */
< 1568125583 798270 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568125693 406218 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1568126127 485804 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1568126185 654077 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568127102 681163 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568127138 930377 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seet up email filters for the annoying github alerts i actually want
> 1568127374 876156 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66065&oldid=66063 5* 03A 5* (+32) 10/* Vafix in comparision with a normal infix */
> 1568127509 130175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66066&oldid=66065 5* 03A 5* (+358) 10/* Parentheses and rules */
> 1568127521 860244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66067&oldid=65944 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+96) 10/* Examples */
> 1568127609 562452 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66068&oldid=66066 5* 03A 5* (+165) 10
< 1568128016 564968 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568128327 925470 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568128357 486891 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
> 1568128873 396644 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66069&oldid=61433 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+535) 10/* About unclear conditional looping instructions. */ new section
< 1568129343 385886 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1568130367 165077 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568130402 1038 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568130499 796562 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568130810 567492 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568130817 631348 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :h
< 1568131209 980988 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi andrewg12 
< 1568131258 245080 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup
< 1568131370 471869 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so used to using linux with it's multiple desktops that when i use windows it gets harder
< 1568131406 296466 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :keep doing ctrl-alt-left
< 1568131427 590452 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is something different in windows
< 1568131452 597478 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno
< 1568131455 534946 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer windows
< 1568131477 8315 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer linux
< 1568131565 713035 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :o
< 1568131909 356560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh: https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/1052743/linux/what-is-nv_queue-and-why-is-it-the-top-process-on-my-system-/ (solution: don't look at top)
< 1568133403 7713 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568134080 360834 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another bad idea: watching open network connections while firefox is open with nothing but a blank page. Wtf are you doing, Firefox?
< 1568134227 79105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may be too much to expect, but why can't we make a browser that, when starting up on a blank page, makes zero network connections?
< 1568134265 455300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.
> 1568134412 162742 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66070&oldid=64661 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Pop */
> 1568134423 673219 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66071&oldid=66070 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Point */
> 1568134437 835427 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66072&oldid=66071 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+0) 10/* Cells & Split */
> 1568134492 375966 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Arch14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66073&oldid=66072 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (-1) 10/* Properties */
> 1568134730 531556 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07///14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66074&oldid=65775 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+1469) 10Adding the "Unary to binary conversion" example.
< 1568135167 212852 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568136077 245007 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I had a somewhat similar feeling as the nv_queue for kidle_inject.
< 1568136577 910116 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1568136585 753897 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi
< 1568136655 789962 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the language or
< 1568136748 52403 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Languages.
< 1568137028 543514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=842292
< 1568137062 419244 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway... the most suspicious looking connection was the captive portal detection
< 1568137190 822697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :From here I get  detectportal.firefox.com = CNAME detectportal.prod.mozaws.net = CNAME detectportal.firefox.com-v2.edgesuite.net = CNAME a1089.dscd.akamai.net = 46.125.232.9 or 46.125.232.24; these resolve back to 046125232009.public.t-mobile.at and 046125232024.public.t-mobile.at respectively.
< 1568137244 726993 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not the kind of host name I wanted to see my browser connect to unasked.
< 1568137278 887542 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568137922 878581 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568138065 78159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And wtf is push.services.mozilla.com good for, aside from giving Mozilla information on how long people keep their browsers open?
< 1568138103 348167 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing
< 1568138107 87424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It can be disabled. But this is the kind of thing I want to be opt-in, not opt-out. At which point it's clear that software developers shouldn't bother with it in the first place.)
< 1568138426 917966 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568138639 798698 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568139412 130028 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow, libnss is big... I guess I don't want to rebuild that myself just to see what's inside those https connections :/
< 1568139419 910105 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568140710 903582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Visual-mov 5*  10New user account
< 1568141062 556781 :andrewg12!5d565769@93-86-87-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568141177 902061 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Is that the thing the Web Push API on Firefox uses? 
< 1568141257 216314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Shouldn't that be up to the particular website?
< 1568141292 530957 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, that's why I asked.
< 1568141293 639874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'd think this is a particular push service just for firefox itself, for bs like studies.
< 1568141308 938410 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see.
< 1568141323 252517 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a guess; I have not done any research on it.
< 1568141323 318333 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably also for pushing updates to their tracking blacklists and that sort of stuff.
< 1568141344 30960 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.mozilla.org/CloudServices is "delightedly whimsical".
< 1568141381 338658 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tracking Protection" ... I almost laughed.
< 1568141422 281672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: What do you think of this Coyoneda type?
< 1568141434 135421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than "a fairly odd functor".
< 1568141468 942360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nothing
< 1568141496 162382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense.
< 1568141521 868942 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a neat trick that comes up in multiple contexts, not just this Prompt monad.
< 1568141563 379569 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to think of that stuff very concretely, in terms of continuations.
< 1568141631 730908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously it's not a useful trick because it's just Haskell nonsense.)
< 1568141656 103674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or maybe it is useful? I'm skeptical.)
< 1568141689 578322 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also wrote "Codensity transformation" the other day but when I did it, I did a CPS transformation with several continuations.
< 1568141858 744203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the Codensity transformation is the same as the CPS transformation.
< 1568141871 337797 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't even conscious of the fact that (a -> r, b -> r) is isomorphic to Either a b -> r (ignoring bottoms)
< 1568141887 936203 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yeah but the latter term makes sense!
< 1568141943 993374 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's meaningful, it can be decomposed into subconcepts. "Codensity" is just nonsense.
< 1568142088 180484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately the nonsense has taken over the Haskell community. :P
< 1568142485 824032 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568142611 457729 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568143348 403851 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568143488 571855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykania: I recommend https://virtuawin.sourceforge.io/ , a software that lets you use virtual desktops in windows and set up your favourite keyboard shortcuts
< 1568143654 906704 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: re browser and connections, https://twitter.com/jonathansampson/status/1166005813548396549 , also try the debian version, it does 20% less connections because debian patched it so that the favicons for the search websites in the search bar menu are installed with the browser rather than downloaded
< 1568143819 394398 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568144005 53555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you were right, this is connected to the service worker push api.
< 1568144039 224951 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm using the debian version already.
< 1568144112 256186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. Service workers are another thing that has no right of existing in the first place.
< 1568144167 797603 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could set up your own personal push service and use that to alleviate the tracking concerns.
< 1568144339 402460 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568144389 795033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok, then imagine that backwards. be glad you're not using the vanilla version, because that does 20% more connections.
< 1568144657 828993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tweet I linked to measures the windows version
< 1568145047 860590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: reading your thread. "[...] is a feature that allows Mozilla to change the default value of a preference for a targeted set of users [...]" is so ominous.
< 1568145162 162945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's not my thread
< 1568145262 490216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. okay, then the thread you linked to (the Firefox subthread in particular.)
< 1568145422 180991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the funny thing about the quote is that its' from Mozilla themselves
< 1568145438 125118 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's worrying rather than funny. Let's call it interesting.
< 1568145471 108159 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that means sometimes they say things about what their browser is doing. what a weird concept for software
< 1568145604 656206 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. "Normandy manages recipes of changes to make to Firefox, including temporary studies, user surveys and controlled rollout of new features."
< 1568145620 582061 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly another thing to disable.
< 1568145637 453679 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I miss Iceweasel.
< 1568145656 557900 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But maintaining the thing must've been a lot of work.)
> 1568145658 719264 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66075&oldid=66055 5* 03Lykaina 5* (-90) 10Updating documentation.
< 1568145661 907527 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: debian's firefox is iceweasel. it's the same thing, they just decided it's safe to use the firefox brand name
< 1568145671 436623 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they do disable some firefox features
< 1568145683 438005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough, apparently.
< 1568145695 572998 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, admittedly they do have a hard time keeping up with all the stuff that mozilla adds to firefox
< 1568145710 962884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a sw that anyone enjoys to package
< 1568145729 324192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even making it compile is basically impossible
< 1568145882 880197 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568145927 827722 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how many IDs does Firefox have for a single profile...
< 1568145935 675152 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :patched the If/While bug!
< 1568145947 86003 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: nice
< 1568145961 319726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykania: I recommend https://virtuawin.sourceforge.io/ , a software that lets you use virtual desktops in windows and set up your favourite keyboard shortcuts
< 1568145978 121407 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks
< 1568146095 492547 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normandy has one. The push service has one. The activity stream of the default new tab page as one. Telemetry has its own id as well, it seems (and why is that even set when Debian disabled the telemetry feature?!).
< 1568146102 743531 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like what I see.
< 1568146113 381084 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i rewarded myself by upping the version to 0.03a0
< 1568146386 637066 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568146854 555691 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the thing is, the *right* way to disable all these things is to rip out the code in question, which is a maintenance nightmare, and will upset users who have different ideas about usefulness.
< 1568146879 737172 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example I'd rip out the Gollum feature ("pocket"), but I imagine some people find it useful.)
< 1568146943 80093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This association is a bit unfair because the pocket in question was really Frodo's.)
< 1568146946 728428 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: like I said, the original codebase is already almost impossible to build. it may be harder to build than glibc, which is impressive. if they manage to successfully rip out the right pieces, it may become slightly less hard to build, so it may be less of a maintenance nightmare than you think.
< 1568146984 711863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: isn't the pocket at the mozilla servers (frodo) and you the user of pocket are on your computer (gollum)?
< 1568146992 790171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you want the thing in frodo's pocket?
< 1568146998 382664 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not you int-e, but the people who ise it
< 1568147036 543929 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568147100 127668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm, how about Han Solo then? https://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/145117/ 
< 1568147117 617928 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong franchise, never cared much about it
< 1568147522 871807 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568147760 302602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, Gollum is better
< 1568147864 155173 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know: what is my language missing?
< 1568147982 295200 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's something opvious, i'm just blanking out on it
< 1568148034 25702 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: nothing, I think it has all the operations you need. although I haven't checked the modified implementation yet.
< 1568148147 902522 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, it has arithmetic, flow control, interactive IO, and now array access too, that's enough for anything reasonable
< 1568148168 808963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the array access part is important, you can't really do without
< 1568148199 727593 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the interpreter works correctly, then it's a fine general purpose language
< 1568148223 728251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a low-level one that you want to compile to and use a generous library of useful functions, but still
< 1568148382 958075 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i implement functions?
< 1568148405 654256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: do you mean in the interpreter with the existing semantics?
< 1568148433 391810 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in the language
< 1568148442 855468 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it already have functions?
< 1568148453 256955 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right
< 1568148460 650159 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean external
< 1568148473 813736 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :libraries
< 1568148550 99340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean like calling other functions written in echidna? just concatenate the source codes, plus modify the addresses they use in the data space so they don't clash with each other
< 1568148627 780785 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking the difference between c and standard library
< 1568148643 590636 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :extensibility
< 1568148689 570411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but echidna already has built-ins for input and output. you can just build functions over that.
< 1568148732 438853 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about time?
< 1568148794 962150 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568148839 929172 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568149098 609498 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how neeeded is the current 'G'?
< 1568149193 583966 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's currently printf("%u",mem[addr])
< 1568149225 467951 :crash_n_burn!~master@fsf/member/crash-n-burn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568149983 878169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's convenient for debugging
< 1568150001 478582 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point
< 1568150009 619081 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though to make it even more convenient, you could make it output a space first if the previous output operation was also this numeral thing
< 1568150022 404808 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's magic, but probably acceptible magic
< 1568150026 311358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as it's documented
< 1568150082 2495 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568150119 566915 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :would ':' be good for time?
< 1568150172 83954 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause it's in the middle of every digital clock
< 1568150202 979338 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568150267 509603 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm thinking about changing M to be more like L
< 1568150273 121197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-243.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: dunno, if you want a lot of fancy io stuff like that, you could add some dispatch builtin where one argument decides what operation to do, or builtin functions that have the same interface as echidna functions so you call them with N or something, but are not implemented in echidna?
< 1568150432 735993 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could work
< 1568150540 392450 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :an m that operated like l would require a lot of arguments
< 1568150600 902501 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :30
< 1568150614 312683 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be done
< 1568150635 452557 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than that weird logic code
< 1568150679 269687 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, 6 5-char arguments
< 1568151043 876102 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568151489 563651 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
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< 1568154159 478665 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :implemented the new M
< 1568154333 216111 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :c = a AND b : M @c @a @b =0000 =0000 =0000 =FFFF  
< 1568154616 530031 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a language named SPL, which for control flow has the following primitives: [?;]. `[` is `while(1){`, `?` is `if(pop(&stack)==0){break;}`, `;` is `break;`, and `]` is `}`. this means you can write pretty clean control structures like `if`, `while` loops, etc.
< 1568154684 357041 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been wondering what kind of reduction you can make to eliminate `?` and `;`.
< 1568154794 724962 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/eqogofoqef some sample programs. if there was a clean way to integrate the conditional check into the `[` instruction, that'd be neat.
< 1568154811 625680 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter one is an iterative factorial algorithm.
< 1568154936 929211 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a stack based language, and all operations reference the top of the stack. similar to Mouse and stuff.
< 1568155008 613131 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :an `if` statement can be built using the following form: ` [?  ;]`. you can build if/else if/else chains via passing boolean flags around on the stack.
< 1568155055 689833 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :`.` is `drop`, `:` is `pick`, `\` is `roll`, `~` is negate, `=` is equality... etc.
< 1568155056 465365 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: .`: not found
< 1568155098 763047 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a `while` statement can be built as a similar form. trying to condense this into just `[` and `]` while preserving the same "structure" is what I'm struggling with.
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< 1568155428 976740 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ability to break arbitrarily is also incredibly useful.
< 1568155747 530255 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvtfothrelugbtvk JOIN :#esoteric
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> 1568156922 535075 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07///14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66076&oldid=66074 5* 03A 5* (+32) 10/* Examples */ Not in this wiki
< 1568156938 838981 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: why should you eliminate both `?` and `;`?
< 1568157016 296033 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :bringing it more in line with something like brainfuck.
< 1568157034 242599 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to see if it's possible, mainly.
< 1568157052 843027 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway [;?] are a find too, at least for me!
< 1568157123 453982 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah? I dunno. there's always this niggling doubt in the back of my mind in the form of "you can make the instruction set smaller".
< 1568157146 99149 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, could one set `]` to be the current `?]` ?
< 1568157190 692749 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting.
< 1568157218 565650 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could eliminate `;` by doing `,?`
< 1568157224 578741 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :`[? ... ,?]`
< 1568157225 317094 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: [?: not found
< 1568157249 420955 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, break seems inexpressible
< 1568157262 433047 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the `,` instruction pushes a zero to the stack. all other numerals like 1, 2, 3 ... A, B, C ... F shifts hexadecimal digits into the top of the stack.
< 1568157271 852629 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, lemme bring up the interpreter.
< 1568157291 447716 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/UnknownGenerousLifecycle
< 1568157305 784769 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :; as ? is pretty obvious, I agree :D
< 1568157316 369529 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe.
< 1568157360 513279 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :see instinctively, I wanna make `[` into `while(pop(&stack)){`
< 1568157396 930355 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's weird. your conditional check now has to be duplicated _prior_ to the loop, and _after_ the loop body.
< 1568157456 830475 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568157462 258752 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if statement is now ` [  ,]`
< 1568157490 147298 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but `while` is now ` [   ]`
< 1568157561 477484 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
< 1568157658 874697 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a sense to make this a post-condition loop do … while(cond)?
< 1568157702 969919 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now `if` would be a pain instead
< 1568157704 635326 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you still express a precondition loop with a postcondition loop?
< 1568157706 847404 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah..
< 1568157758 391768 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :why while is so universal hm. I never thought about that, ever
< 1568158077 856716 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to tutor CS concepts, and I used to blow my students' minds when I tell them that they can form every single control flow construct from `while`s.
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< 1568158293 91145 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'while' is universal in the same way that 'jmp' and 'jnz'/'jz' instructions are universal.
< 1568158938 323204 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, `[?;]` can be used to construct something like `begin   while  repeat
< 1568158944 22003 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow#Loop_with_test_in_the_middle
< 1568159045 329450 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :[   ?  ] would be the equivalent code.
< 1568159045 948527 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: |spelling error
< 1568159046 28458 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: |     ?  ] would be the equivalent code.
< 1568159046 64935 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: |                                                            ^
< 1568159053 484280 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, sorry. forget what triggers bots.
< 1568159717 224440 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow#Loop_with_test_in_the_middle => very interesting, thanks!
< 1568159733 750906 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/AjarFirmSystemresource an example of just using `while` and `break`.
< 1568159738 448435 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :np!
< 1568159754 527224 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while ago I did thought about named loops and breaks/continues but for some reason not of that loop type
< 1568159768 689768 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :that entire page will be useful to me, I think
< 1568159794 814901 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ]
< 1568159795 544864 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ]
< 1568159801 375141 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha it works
< 1568159805 93006 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah.
< 1568159811 238293 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ [ ] ]
< 1568159811 898272 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: [ ] ]
< 1568159851 275581 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+-]
< 1568159864 414567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pretends he knows what he’s doing
< 1568159879 566091 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I think there should be at least one space after [
< 1568159882 594684 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no clue either
< 1568159890 798737 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ] [ ]
< 1568159891 403167 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ] [ ]
< 1568159899 433991 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, looking at brainfuck algorithms.
< 1568159899 690958 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I’ll go sleep
< 1568159904 345189 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like I'm right.
< 1568159932 29237 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'while () {  }' results in you requiring to evalute the condition _again_ at the end of the loop if you just use [ and ].
< 1568159952 497191 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :independent rediscovery!
< 1568159959 773823 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568159997 692944 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :to send you off, here's a recursive factorial function: ,2{:,0=[:?..,1,;][?:,1-,2!*;]},10,2!
< 1568160053 328804 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568160055 797255 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :write in c, write in c, write in c, write in c, if you want it to make no sense, write in c
< 1568160092 978759 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's how the song goes
< 1568160098 904008 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol.
< 1568160196 449751 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :exitwhen from that article reminds me of algebraic effects: effect definition, a handler and its application to an effectful expression all bundled together. Or exceptions, but they already mention them and that’s not exotic enough
< 1568160304 823521 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though this exitwhen is weaker than exceptions (and moreso effects) and on the other hand is beautifully local, that’s a plus I think
< 1568160457 8571 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/dicapuzube.makefile
< 1568160527 952419 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :exitwhen looks frickin' awesome.
< 1568160788 821069 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://hastebin.com/dicapuzube.makefile => you made it readable! :o
< 1568160810 685531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay bye all :
< 1568160814 558358 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :night.
< 1568160839 622061 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cool part is it's just trivial substitutions.
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< 1568169570 610272 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568169728 287846 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568169959 975755 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1568170144 728279 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :made an echidna program to output the ecact formula when, if piped into bc, gives the unix time
< 1568170286 956243 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568170298 625635 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd output it using echidna, but it's 32-bit and echidna is 16-bit
< 1568170443 692000 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568170807 610379 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568170871 557543 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i do base conversion math on two 16-bit numbers as though they were one 32-bit number?
< 1568171408 889519 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568171854 534770 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568172164 520674 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568172212 354185 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: a*2^16 + b
< 1568172412 187280 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dvtfothrelugbtvk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568172810 385548 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568173954 361745 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568173960 74128 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568174110 748091 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568174129 80041 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568176206 616859 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/begaliyeju.py a half-functional SPL-to-C compiler. pretty trivial.
< 1568177053 411052 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
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< 1568177103 178149 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1568177149 893944 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1568177196 834755 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1568177243 406400 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1568177275 190592 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568177290 87969 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1568177809 375136 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568177826 516190 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568177836 256881 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568177858 885977 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568178500 539624 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568179590 8487 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck would be far more palettable if `[]` were substituted for `[?;]`. I imagine a command set of `[<>!?;]` would be turing-complete, with `!` acting as a bit-flip operator.
< 1568179714 820107 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if equipped with a circular tape, the program [!?>] would write 1's to every memory cell.
< 1568179741 502145 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that [!?>]!, need to swap the last bit back.
< 1568179865 506453 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the use of a sentinel cell, you can reduce the instruction set to `[<>!?]`
< 1568179940 285080 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: To be clear, what are `?` and `;`?
< 1568180006 249426 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. `[` and `]` are `while(1){` and `}`, while `?` and `;` are `if(cells[current]==0){break;}` and `break;` respectively.
< 1568180019 846505 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :was going off of an earlier discussion.
< 1568180022 312837 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah
< 1568180046 452814 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :been working on a language called SPL that uses those commands + a stack.
< 1568180085 54374 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/begaliyeju.py wrote a half-arsed C compiler for a subset of it.
< 1568180151 990999 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck's [ and ] require you to duplicate code in order to write a trivial while loop.
< 1568180480 238596 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568180570 873587 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568182139 544932 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568182747 727771 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5cfd:ddf:4d65:900c QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568183245 232914 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568183614 474437 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder what a generic while loop would look like in FRACTRAN.
< 1568184173 966477 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anybody made a brainfuck interpreter in FRACTRAN? that would be impressive. I imagine the construction would involve building a tape using a single register.
< 1568185151 973908 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4965:e28f:26fb:4852 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568185215 522594 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8945:58a1:35ea:43cb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568185291 980150 :tromp__!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568185402 121993 :tromp__!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568185403 975223 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4965:e28f:26fb:4852 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568185424 551930 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568185502 529050 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:8945:58a1:35ea:43cb QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568187338 870294 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568188680 562866 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568188781 234466 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some very advacned fractran coders
< 1568189478 353669 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568191364 86515 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard part would be program input and IO
< 1568191970 914854 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568192146 261725 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568192827 848888 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
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< 1568193692 544270 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1568193700 111390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66077&oldid=66068 5* 03A 5* (+649) 10/* Multiplication (idea; probably will be combined with Vafix in order to make reading source files harder) */
< 1568193723 609828 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568194018 948927 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mzqnhylcvanvpqhx JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568194435 374846 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66078&oldid=66077 5* 03A 5* (+1543) 10/* Matrix transposals */
< 1568194435 956142 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568194476 288157 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66079&oldid=66078 5* 03A 5* (+73) 10/* The Dyadic part */
> 1568194576 468545 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66080&oldid=66079 5* 03A 5* (+82) 10
< 1568194688 600488 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: that's only if the system can store 32-bit numbers
< 1568194779 804222 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :echidna uses 16-bit math
< 1568195168 390454 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can concatenate thrm into a 32-bit, but that won't help with base conversion
< 1568195903 245220 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568195985 515594 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568196207 112546 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66081 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+80) 10Initial one-liner bio.
> 1568196295 811057 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66082&oldid=66081 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (-4) 10
> 1568196361 73999 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66083&oldid=66082 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+9) 10
> 1568196512 726050 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66084&oldid=66083 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+45) 10
< 1568196514 236844 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568200377 522067 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568200611 890794 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66085&oldid=50795 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (+0) 10/* Storage spaces 1-3 */
> 1568200867 395257 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66086&oldid=66085 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-6) 10/* And */
> 1568201349 217500 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66087&oldid=66086 5* 03Unlimiter 5* (-4) 10/* eloop */
< 1568201747 965641 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568202904 820563 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I don't know if there are any handy shortcuts for base conversion specifically, but you can always "just" implement 32-bit operations in terms of 16-bit ones based on the mentioned decomposition.
< 1568202921 854616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example for 32x32->32 bit multiplication, x * y = (xh*2^16 + xl) * (yh*2^16 + yl) = (xh*yh)*2^32 + (xh*yl + yh*xl)*2^16 + xl*yl, and the *2^32 part doesn't matter, so you "only" need to compute 16x16->16-bit multiplications xh*yl and yh*xl, and one 16x16->32-bit multiplication xl*yl, and sum up the right parts of the results.
< 1568203102 543803 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Division is much more disagreeable. Though with a constant divisor you could turn it into an (even wider) multiplication.
< 1568203472 639639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's similar routines like this in, for example, SDCC; their 32-bit multiplication is at https://sourceforge.net/p/sdcc/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/sdcc/device/lib/_mullong.c (a pure C version, or actually two of them, at the bottom).
< 1568205614 516099 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568205844 13390 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568206070 259431 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568207233 227389 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
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< 1568207472 395693 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568208056 30189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66088&oldid=66080 5* 03A 5* (+22) 10/* Implementations */
> 1568208128 427989 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66089&oldid=66088 5* 03A 5* (-358) 10/* Multiplication (idea; probably will be combined with Vafix in order to make reading source files harder) */ Making this simple as well as hard to understand
> 1568208488 337469 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66090&oldid=66089 5* 03A 5* (+275) 10
> 1568208548 79633 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66091&oldid=66090 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10Fix some typos
> 1568208795 135429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66092&oldid=66091 5* 03A 5* (+130) 10/* Computational class */
> 1568208837 843740 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66093&oldid=66092 5* 03A 5* (-2265) 10/* Matrix transposals */ Nope, the core of Vafix is just 2 operators.
> 1568208875 705435 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66094&oldid=66093 5* 03A 5* (+25) 10/* Implementations */
> 1568208886 943420 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66095&oldid=66094 5* 03A 5* (+9) 10/* Implementations */
< 1568209605 660763 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not wholly esoteric, but I mentioned it on here weeks ago, finally got around to packaging it up: https://github.com/catseye/Cardboard-Prolog
< 1568209864 597160 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: omg you're catseye?
< 1568209909 55067 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is like so...
< 1568209919 311787 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just messing with you
< 1568210674 227605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curses! My entirely-non-secret identity has been revealed!
> 1568210682 385524 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66096&oldid=66095 5* 03A 5* (+19) 10/* Calculates 7+(-5) */
< 1568211094 647665 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/x86instructions/status/1171468931241934853
< 1568211404 700489 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mzqnhylcvanvpqhx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568211611 949178 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap, i have to sacrifice another command
< 1568211716 330065 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1568211789 746336 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need a second op like 'S'
< 1568211825 745976 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = special/secondary
< 1568212258 749373 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably move R to G and make the current G part of the new R as RD
< 1568212272 623175 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, RG
< 1568213082 399541 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1568215427 982869 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just heard about words like speako, writo, scanno, clicko, thinko. Just rofling now
< 1568215466 766366 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :a neat model but funny nonetheless
< 1568215614 661494 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: maybe you've just been called old ;-)
< 1568215747 63027 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard about cpressey but not once about catseye (before I saw some github links cpressey himself posted weeks ago), what did I do wrong
< 1568215909 680087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you've never encountered the now-dead link to Cat's Eye Technologies on http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/ :)
< 1568215930 754664 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe that's where I first found it.)
< 1568215945 658680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp box
< 1568215948 82530 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boxmodel:boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be. \ hackego:HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico! \ match:Can a match box? No, but a tin can. \ paste:"Paste" is a short story by Henry James. Its contents have been cut in
< 1568216251 731050 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this Cardboard Prolog challenges me to write something in another language but I’m lazy. I even hadn’t finished that metavariable proof checker yet, I’m not happy with a hacky β-reduction rule which would allow me to finish that thing and I don’t want to think how could I manage without that, and anyway no one wants that engine at all so what’s the use
< 1568216835 834767 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah. Yes maybe if I was more old and more appreciated INTERCAL…
< 1568216928 316188 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cut elimination
< 1568216929 660024 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
< 1568216939 479206 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa I didn’t expect
< 1568216952 726818 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and really funny
< 1568216963 600031 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? branch-cut elimination
< 1568216964 806971 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch-cut elimination? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568216969 766174 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? branch cut
< 1568216971 93691 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch cut? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568216973 638995 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cut
< 1568216974 893600 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cut? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568216979 198990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat
< 1568216980 521571 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
< 1568216992 855467 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I already knew that, it seems
< 1568216998 838212 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: is that true?
< 1568216999 41588 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: im coding enqueue to insert it into the kernel core, because well they are procedures no it's not.
< 1568217028 735037 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot are you in a self-contradictory mood today, huh?
< 1568217029 32178 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that sentence, either. :) difference is, dr. watson just sends an error report off to microsoft and objects, what would one gain from an idl separate from scheme code
< 1568217102 528899 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly didn’t know IDL could be made into scheme code
< 1568217116 509450 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? IDL
< 1568217117 807693 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :IDL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568217121 869344 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank gods
< 1568217174 985456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: INTERCAL was the first or second esolang I've encountered (I don't know whether Brainfuck came first or second). So it made a lasting impression.
< 1568217241 526875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there were also far fewer esolangs around to pick from.
< 1568217261 374360 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no esolangs.org :)
< 1568217277 157753 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: the first programming language I learnt was Piet
< 1568217302 703498 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which probably goes some way to explaining how I try and learn how a program works
< 1568217305 865594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook.
< 1568217312 643571 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was second
< 1568217314 525214 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there was a time when I thought about conlangs and esolangs almost entirely on a basis of (Russian) Wikipedia pages on them, which were few (and still are; I don’t understand what criteria are there to include precisely that selection but it seems unchanged over the years)
< 1568217333 764739 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first esolang I made, which I think might still exist as a word document on my parents' computer, is an extension to Ook)
< 1568217385 945409 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny that DMM basically inhabits two extremes in the originality spectrum for esolangs :)
< 1568217423 609229 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568217425 762839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :happily that wikipedia selection seemed to include FALSE, it gave me several ideas and that’s why each my concatenative language will have [...] lambda brackets
< 1568217451 710520 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also saw them in some forth variation but don’t know which first
< 1568217502 453543 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: Old like a FOX
< 1568217527 899157 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(DMM?)
< 1568217533 472567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Oh technically I guess I learned about BlooP and FlooP before the other two, but I didn't consider them as esoteric languages.
< 1568217533 546076 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568217549 893666 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, GEB
< 1568217555 159889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: The author of IWC. ;)
< 1568217559 120860 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: David Morgan-Mar, webcartoonist and esolang creator
< 1568217588 142903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a book like GEB, and also unlike it, so it should be more practical, but nonetheless eclectic and varied and crazy but I don’t have a chapter plan still
< 1568217622 688537 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a good place to start ;)
< 1568217622 725202 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: thanks! Didn’t heard about him before
< 1568217646 210504 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what’s IWC?
< 1568217648 299287 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1568217659 292528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Tsk, you fell for it :)
< 1568217665 245800 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/
< 1568217670 939809 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568217699 616899 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldn’t I fall for an unknown abbreviation, though
< 1568217715 248694 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only know AAAAA
< 1568217723 534266 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I don't know, but it was all according to plan.
< 1568217763 170930 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alliteration and abbreviation addicts anonymous
< 1568217774 942836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a chapter about steganograophy could be steganographed
< 1568217800 233602 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no it was a-something association against abusing abbreviations
< 1568217801 984537 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about stenography
< 1568217821 178483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I would write that book it may include a chapter on steganography
< 1568217847 294282 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it’s only logical to steganographize something in there
< 1568217855 235695 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( People can't memorize computer industry acronyms. )
< 1568217918 811667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("PCMCIA", if you remember that. Of course it really stands for "PC Memory Card Industry Association".)
< 1568217995 624779 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :alliterations help illiterate to alternate leaping hopefully and laterally
< 1568218043 559370 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn’t know about PCMCIA, clever
< 1568218223 998606 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg
< 1568218226 768600 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568218311 464444 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it seems I’m familiar with many of DMM’s esolangs
< 1568218613 821411 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Celestial Bureaucracy operates in the spiritual realm, unlike materialistic Western data structures.” => :D
> 1568218736 805372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66097 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+230) 10Created page with "The interpreter is good, but can you add file support so the extension you have provided for Vafix is useful? ~~~~"
> 1568218792 726266 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66098&oldid=66097 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+97) 10
< 1568219252 750337 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I hoped there would be examples of Haifu code
< 1568219274 835127 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc Haifu doesn't have a way of doing loops :(
> 1568219933 720260 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66099&oldid=66098 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+500) 10
> 1568219944 859901 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66100&oldid=66099 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1) 10
< 1568220128 488403 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1568220781 31744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66101&oldid=66043 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1998) 10Blanking because it now in maintenance.
< 1568222067 964220 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568223029 577567 :\emph{grumble}!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: \end{document}
< 1568223256 538573 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568223434 778054 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568224464 302575 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568225372 3009 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568225618 980713 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568225999 411630 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568226155 635919 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568226191 989377 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568226437 958096 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f8fd:1782:64f0:6a06 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568226921 603139 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-omuhytcfbacdbotu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568226998 552879 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568227362 76501 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568228208 969343 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229027 900275 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229233 730339 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568229261 560715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229316 964101 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:79d5:699:7146:b1b0 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229401 962455 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2576:5341:7571:929c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229566 972730 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:79d5:699:7146:b1b0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568229650 968527 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2576:5341:7571:929c QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568229959 536797 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2576:5341:7571:929c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568229981 956974 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568230981 230278 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568232198 231630 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? !
< 1568232199 388269 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​! is a syntax used in Haskell and Prolog for solving evaluation order problems.
< 1568232305 545631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: there's even a wiki page: https://esolangs.org/wiki/David_Morgan-Mar
< 1568232367 867244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/DMM redirecys there
< 1568232534 593476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :four of his esolangs are famous: HQ9++ (version of HQ9+ that also has an object-oriented abstraction but very different from Intercal classes), Chef (thematic language where programs look like cooking recipes), Piet (programs are paletted images), and Ook! (brainfuck dialect for apes)
< 1568232798 629431 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, didn't realize that he was the same person behind the webcomics
< 1568232883 622772 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:57b:36f5:cac2:ca8d QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568233230 939672 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yeah, I went to that precise article today :D
< 1568233612 996478 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:a4d7:5216:af18:b2c JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568233640 973415 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568233651 977978 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568233930 767662 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2855868/terribly-meaninful-information/
< 1568233932 68669 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2855868/terribly-meaninful-information/: b_jonas
> 1568234011 236265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fungot14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66102&oldid=38954 5* 03B jonas 5* (+21) 10
< 1568234071 869932 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a6.pdf
< 1568234087 828597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, we should probably have at least short articles about HackEso and lambdabot
< 1568234093 93200 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, i will actually try an program in this
< 1568234361 220070 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what do you think echidna, as it is now, would be good for?
< 1568234413 454793 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I was busy today and tomorrow, so I didn't look at it
< 1568234442 520304 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked the up-to-date compiled documentation
< 1568234467 175005 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :in chat
< 1568234506 558480 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you were busy tomorrow?
< 1568234518 650674 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet
< 1568234520 508364 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I will be
< 1568234603 515142 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568234686 333128 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you look at the pdf, or are you too busy?
< 1568234694 456666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too late in the evening
< 1568234699 434186 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think anymore
< 1568234708 98675 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I could but I'm tired
< 1568234717 392952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no
< 1568234741 242406 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to get up tomorrow
< 1568234854 310149 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone else wanna look at the pdf and see where the strengthes are?
< 1568235123 577709 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568235279 8717 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568235279 118032 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568236285 30282 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to go lie down. brb. (i'm on a screen session)
< 1568236565 449596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any mathematical foundation to dataflow programming?
< 1568236713 210674 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568236734 623179 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that?
< 1568236805 869024 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like flow-based programming.
< 1568236813 483359 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataflow_programming
< 1568237395 203205 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is mine dataflow programming?
< 1568237408 270974 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you referring to another?
< 1568237436 824867 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering in general, not directed towards you or your language.
< 1568237515 266211 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew
< 1568239146 978417 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made a clock
< 1568239186 699412 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, to be fair, i used 4 "special ops" to do it
< 1568239256 292162 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that i call the extended op set "special ops"?
< 1568239367 267956 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568239689 321057 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568239846 795665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568241079 100411 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I can replace my stack with a queue.
< 1568241824 99605 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference?
< 1568241851 980167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568242058 985332 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :several things are different. RPN no longer works as you'd think.
< 1568242598 20759 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 4 + - * -> (1+2)*(3-4) for example.
< 1568242637 600190 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:b14a:1f03:d8e3:d6d7 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1568242637 769261 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@68-113-127-142.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568242638 574826 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :control flow would be interesting.
< 1568242712 905460 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :evaluating conditions would be uh... hard?
< 1568242804 505532 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to make copius use of rolling the queue to seek to parameters.
> 1568243131 666176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66103&oldid=66100 5* 03A 5* (+10) 10Split into bullet points
< 1568243210 697230 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's A?
> 1568243224 54210 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66104&oldid=66096 5* 03A 5* (+2) 10/* Execution scheme */
> 1568243256 902873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66105&oldid=66103 5* 03A 5* (+166) 10
< 1568243407 835420 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs.
> 1568243599 257357 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66106&oldid=66105 5* 03A 5* (+196) 10
< 1568243923 359560 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh...have to be able to do 32-bit arithmetic in echidna, or add to it until i can
< 1568244002 878317 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1568244025 62822 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses unsigned 16-bit integers
< 1568244038 756891 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no carry
< 1568244045 280280 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no borrow
< 1568244113 943064 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need 32 bit arithmetic.
< 1568244124 143733 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't
< 1568244135 337029 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still detect carry and borrows.
< 1568244140 149256 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :by virtue of wraparound.
< 1568244171 830362 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :given two numbers, a and b, if a + b < a || a + b < b, a carry occurred.
> 1568244186 869870 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66107&oldid=66106 5* 03A 5* (+12) 10
> 1568244210 692981 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66108&oldid=66107 5* 03A 5* (-14) 10
< 1568244222 828949 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: can you add parentheses?/
< 1568244246 987024 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can discard the latter part of that 'or' condition, so it's just `if(a + b < a){/*carry occurred*/}`
< 1568244292 506797 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you add a to ( b < a )?
< 1568244305 199376 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? precedence, dude.
< 1568244312 174948 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a + b) < a
< 1568244324 406259 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must be reallyy out of it
< 1568244334 145143 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sum of two numbers will always be greater than or equal to either number.
> 1568244341 633680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Vafix14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66109&oldid=66108 5* 03A 5* (+189) 10
< 1568244346 27701 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :provided those numbers are positive integers.
< 1568244370 338214 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's really going on behind the scenes is ((a + b) % INT_MAX) < a
< 1568244566 320248 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :t @r =a =b p @r =a I0 t @s @s =1 -I0
< 1568244616 295158 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, that's pseudo-echidna
< 1568244724 4946 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :T @0003 =0000 =0001 P @0003 @0000 I0 T @0004 @0004 =0001 -I0
< 1568244733 549818 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's echidna
< 1568244905 681438 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :in other words: r=a+b; if(r hmm, we should probably have at least short articles about HackEso and lambdabot => seems reasonable!
< 1568246284 139222 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted.
< 1568246473 448433 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568246537 151407 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna set out out in in on both r and s
< 1568246560 28754 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasoning about arithmetic using queues is uh... confusing.
< 1568246607 282754 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 out 2 in
< 1568246657 310829 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/utigeyadaq.md
< 1568246698 2995 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean 2 out 3 in
< 1568246720 673278 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as max for the R- and S-ops
< 1568246740 509314 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta code this soon
< 1568246844 686289 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really hard to sequence queue operations in your head, compared to a stack.
< 1568246880 863749 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then I had to resort to a roll operation that rotates the queue.
< 1568246903 608053 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme see if I can write a factorial function.
< 1568246947 606220 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : is there any mathematical foundation to dataflow programming? => hm AFAIR there is a single framework in Haskell to express all of them (I don’t remember is it closer to comonads or ArrowFix, what it was called) so maybe there is something in category theory to base all of it too. Though I have read only a few introductory things and don’t remember them by now
< 1568247090 162789 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not, I seem to confuse that with stream processing or what it’s called, when each tick all the values are recomputed using a fixed set of rules, using only the previous available values or something like this, ultimately like a usual digital circuit
> 1568247168 665375 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07But Is It Art?14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66110&oldid=58846 5* 03Qpliu 5* (+0) 10/* External resources */
< 1568247183 295678 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last thing is of course more or less simple so the question is probably not about that
< 1568247647 957105 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1568247690 251107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Intramodular Transaction14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66111 5* 03Qpliu 5* (+383) 10Created page with "An alternative reverse bits:  main input = reverse input trailer input;  trailer input = ? input trailer ..input input;  reverse input output = ? input ? .input reverse ..inpu..."
< 1568251359 400446 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2576:5341:7571:929c QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568252150 445396 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even thought of how I'd translate that quadratic formula to an actual _function_... jesus.
< 1568253610 517102 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568253703 95751 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-omuhytcfbacdbotu QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568254103 534166 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568254937 596957 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a register machine requires indirect addressing to be conveniently turing complete, else you're going to be spending your time encoding your TM tape into one of the registers.
< 1568255616 513973 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so indecisive with what I want to devote my time doing. I've tried stack machines and queue machines with some fancy logic on top.
< 1568255633 337022 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't seem to find just the right model.
< 1568255976 584101 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a7.pdf
< 1568256112 958684 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568256137 106916 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it called echidna?
< 1568256255 547183 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Hooloovo0 
< 1568256261 998863 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568256313 964705 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's new?
< 1568256355 964663 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on my VCF midwest demo
< 1568256368 499217 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also thinking about a paper for my ethics class
< 1568256426 277465 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :demo is TI calculators + a vax, and 
< 1568256443 261717 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's VCF?
< 1568256450 212532 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vintage computer festival
< 1568256452 207690 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568256454 17812 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when is that?
< 1568256458 626617 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the thing @ the computer history museum?
< 1568256474 307764 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :VCF west is at the CHM, yeah
< 1568256484 302138 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a couple other ones scattered around the country
< 1568256503 820401 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have pretty boring names if you ask me
< 1568256506 521543 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, VCF west was last month
< 1568256524 247636 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHM is a cool place
< 1568256525 39474 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :vcfmw.org is the one I'm going to, this weekend
< 1568256525 998651 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to go back
< 1568256542 3586 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was kind of disappointed
< 1568256556 174832 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they definitely have a bunch of cool stuff... but only a couple things are turned on
< 1568256574 518585 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my wife works 5 min away from there
< 1568256575 478764 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you go, definitely make sure you get to see the IBM demo
< 1568256578 838463 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's true
< 1568256637 111287 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if you show up with your own punch cards, I wonder if they'd let you run them through the 1401...
< 1568256662 981836 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you up to?
< 1568256716 172865 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy day
< 1568256721 604922 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did some grocery shopping, that's about it
< 1568256783 723874 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:42:17 < Hooloovo0> why is it called echidna?
< 1568256794 290358 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer: i forgot
< 1568256808 179120 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a good reason, though
< 1568257601 981560 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5f3:6b02:28ce:7099 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568257680 539699 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5432:80b2:81b8:5a49 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568257854 5575 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c5f3:6b02:28ce:7099 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568257964 517962 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5432:80b2:81b8:5a49 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568258617 983634 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a7-fix.pdf
< 1568259346 121742 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Echidna not, it is hard to program in.
< 1568259404 525658 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568259680 519785 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568259682 495583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux stack growth behavior was changed apparently: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/1d8ca3be86ebc6a38dad8236f45c7a9c61681e78
< 1568259717 382127 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to check %rsp against the fault address on page faults, and grow the stack if %rsp was lower.
< 1568259827 13833 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i remember
< 1568259896 223278 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i picked echidna because the first echidna, which was very different, needed to start with the letter 'e'
< 1568259915 381210 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and be an animal, as that was my convention
< 1568259972 33765 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :this echidna was a lot closer to the first ecidna than to calamari or hydra
< 1568260010 393207 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are unusuable)
< 1568260048 40824 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :next one i make will probably be calamari
< 1568260059 864668 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, using that name
< 1568260062 870253 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568260130 337411 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :*my* hydra might not have been esoteric
< 1568260150 364974 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no relation to the hydra on the wiki
< 1568260228 293825 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568260357 560443 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the original Echidna was esoteric, but it was a pain in the ass. It shares some code with the current Echidna, which I believe to be esoteric.
< 1568260725 517689 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568260898 883212 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568262671 965581 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568262936 12346 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568263380 51677 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/elifuxehir.md spent the evening working out what the quadratic formula might look like in a queue-based Forth.
< 1568263505 850566 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :38 instructions vs. the 31 for Forth on rosetta code.
< 1568263519 149472 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :difficult. but interesting
< 1568264637 232203 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568264907 249931 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi.
< 1568265623 960856 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1568265748 221377 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:CarlosLuna14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66112&oldid=66084 5* 03CarlosLuna 5* (+14) 10
< 1568266055 671443 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :night
< 1568266156 953112 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568269149 526748 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568269430 519954 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:89d9:5b19:b3ce:e926 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568269496 524329 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568269579 577716 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568269859 517566 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568271542 193657 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568272836 315028 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmm.
< 1568272853 602360 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my factorial algorithm got shorter once I swapped to a queue.
< 1568273339 318318 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :designing an 'if' statement with a queue is a little tougher. the body of the if statement may do work that gets in the way of signalling the next block.
< 1568273391 646243 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good primitive might be "roll to the last element of the queue".
< 1568274792 425490 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568276099 534913 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1568276639 781792 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66113&oldid=65790 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+374) 10/* Command changing commands and operations */ new section
< 1568277146 973507 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568277686 592163 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568277756 866855 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568277846 960206 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568278517 561235 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568278585 344465 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568279362 537554 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Alisj14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66114&oldid=43587 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
< 1568279790 424286 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568279845 115107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Parent the Sizing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66115&oldid=55580 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10+WIP
< 1568279861 833166 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568280163 941802 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1568280184 713822 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. I just realized that both the Prompt monad and the Operational monad *require* you to define the insert with a GADT. I also suspect this is how they can guarantee the resulting monad adheres to the monad laws.
< 1568280220 777094 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think it's more that GADTs are the only way to get any use out of them
> 1568280283 786195 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chromos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66116&oldid=60901 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+51) 10
< 1568280314 31718 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ProgramT Identity m a isn't particularly unreasonable, although not very useful
> 1568280339 553055 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TwoFiftyFive14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66117&oldid=65725 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
< 1568280376 306378 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I don't know enough about this to ask a sensible follow-up question
< 1568280397 727437 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's OK, I don't know enough to answer one
> 1568280416 251758 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SLOBOL (2015 language)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66118&oldid=63937 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+34) 10
> 1568280454 86356 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WILSON14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66119&oldid=46781 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+23) 10
< 1568280459 541895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What's the distinction between Prompt and Operational? I thought people used those words to mean the same thing.
< 1568280510 830902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whichever one we were talking about the other way, it should be a monad regardless of the type constructor you give it.
< 1568280709 325676 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What kinds of type constructors are you allowed to give it? Is List a type constructor? Can you give it List?
< 1568280754 633979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what "it" is.
< 1568280797 926531 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "it" in my question was the final "it" in your sentence that started with "Whichever".
< 1568280814 17382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's a good point.
< 1568280816 852681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the answer is yes, and it'll give you a particular kind of n-ary trees.
< 1568280839 924356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one: data Tree a = Leaf a | Branch [Tree a]
< 1568280862 14966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With a pretty complicated encoding.)
< 1568280980 973769 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, to back up: yes, I think the distinction between Prompt and Operational is not very important, they're just two different APIs/libraries/implementations of the same basic idea.
< 1568280989 477212 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the definitions?
< 1568281071 219392 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taking Operational b/c it seems slightly simpler to understand, the definition is: type Program instr = ProgramT instr Identity
< 1568281078 656654 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The primitive instructions are given by the type constructor instr :: * -> *."
< 1568281083 224679 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that includes List.
< 1568281112 845847 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it includes anything that isn't a GADT?
< 1568281138 794460 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ProgramT's defintion is more fundamental
< 1568281157 277524 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but similar: data ProgramT instr m a  ... with "The primitive instructions are given by the type constructor instr :: * -> *."
< 1568281160 684154 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is the kind of types, so it certainly includes List.
< 1568281171 515242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, so * -> * certainly includes List.
< 1568281187 565696 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!?
< 1568281188 732714 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since List takes types (like Int : *) to types (like List Int : *)
< 1568281229 150721 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try putting List there but based on my futzing around with it yesterday I 100% expect ghc to complain.
< 1568281260 713592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it https://hackage.haskell.org/package/operational-0.2.3.5/docs/Control-Monad-Operational.html ?
< 1568281521 679290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised that it says "Bind :: ProgramT instr m b -> (b -> ProgramT instr m a) -> ProgramT instr m a".
< 1568281555 898705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't thought about how to make this a monad transformer, but in the non-transformer case I'd expect "Bind :: instr b -> (b -> Program instr a) -> Program instr a"?
< 1568281575 961753 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursing on both sides seems to make it non-canonical?
< 1568281690 652746 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is that module, yes
< 1568281695 450451 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're probably supposed to use ProgramViewT.
< 1568281770 184063 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this certainly "works" for instr=List, it's just a very roundabout way to express that type.
< 1568281898 501394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t []
< 1568281899 936287 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a]
< 1568281955 663727 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :import Control.Monad.Operational ; type MyListProgram s a = Program ([s]) a
< 1568281980 672092 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghc complains: The first argument of ‘Program’ should have kind ‘* -> *’, but ‘[s]’ has kind ‘*’
< 1568281987 646186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you mean Program [] a
< 1568281996 552622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is s?
< 1568282022 38274 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That works, for reasons I do not at all understand.
< 1568282037 945577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Haskell syntax is confusing?
< 1568282045 655135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try Maybe instead of []
< 1568282063 507067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, Maybe isn't a very good example except syntactically.
< 1568282084 848689 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe also works. Well, at least this establishes that it doesn't *have* to be a GADT, which was half of my question.
< 1568282099 323722 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether the result of doing this is useful for no, that's another matter.
< 1568282121 356908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think it's useful.
< 1568282123 292674 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like :t that shows the kind of a type constructor?
< 1568282129 494187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, :k
< 1568282141 763355 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was my first guess but I was being cautious.
< 1568282145 39123 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::k []
< 1568282146 694404 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> *
< 1568282150 21149 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then.
< 1568282151 686811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, I don't think any of this is actually that useful.
< 1568282184 661805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this is pretty paged out of my memory, but I can try to clarify things if it's helpful.
< 1568282194 22699 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not useful, but very fitting to #esoteric somehow.
< 1568282196 185999 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you feel about this type: data Free a = Pure a | Free (f (Free f a))
< 1568282265 35461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's an important underlying point about what monads are, or something, such that it makes the same amount of sense for any type constructor you pass to Program.
< 1568282384 884068 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no feelings about that type except perhaps bewilderment.
< 1568282415 98476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1568282437 56389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's think about ways to invent I/O in Haskell, assuming you don't know any of this nonsense.
< 1568282467 135218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one simple way to do it: main :: String
< 1568282476 234203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is really just O, not I/O.
< 1568282505 9243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simple enough?
< 1568282534 546236 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, where did I/O come from?
< 1568282546 765874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a useful concrete example.
< 1568282569 778569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you prefer another one we can probably make it work too?
< 1568282570 173175 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Go on.
< 1568282604 249948 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. The problem with this approach is that you can't do input.
< 1568282627 869126 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568282631 461749 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could define main :: String -> String, but then the problem is that (modulo laziness) you do all the input upfront, and then all the output, which is pretty limited.
< 1568282652 907965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what you want is a way to interleave input and output.
< 1568282685 303937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes sense?
< 1568282725 730605 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that the idea of all of these things is that you have some external runtime system/interpreter that can take a Haskell value like main and interpret it together with the outside world.
< 1568282785 710136 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On second thought maybe I/O isn't the best example.
< 1568282849 968294 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, why not?
< 1568282872 509481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually the question is only whether it's good enough.)
< 1568282935 636838 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not intuitive to me that interleaving input and output is desriable. In Javascript, as one example, it is not possible to interleave input and output. Events cause computations which enqueue more events.
< 1568282970 645694 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You end up writing promises and state machines.
< 1568283028 462459 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it gives the impression that the only reason Haskell has monads is so that it can do I/O despite the handicap of being a lazy, referentially transparent language, and that is of course unfair to say.
< 1568283083 294566 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. If you have another example I can probably use that one instead.
< 1568283117 502365 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think IO is kind of a special monad in Haskell in that it's maybe best understood as a free monad since we don't particularly have semantics for it.
< 1568283122 393545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Among other ways it's special.)
< 1568283144 188248 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, parsing. That's an actual use case. I want to produce an AST and consume some of the string (i.e. produce the remainder of the string) but I don't want to constantly write destructuring pattern matches.
< 1568283159 10591 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you know what I mean.
< 1568283170 313749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Writer monad" I am guessing.
< 1568283200 99234 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or State, I suppose, you could treat the string as the state.
< 1568283214 140392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsing sounds pretty complicated.
< 1568283234 644985 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What were you hoping to explain to me again?
< 1568283259 148612 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to give some motivation for free monads such that nothing is too mystifying at any point.
< 1568283293 468240 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program is a kind of free monad and free monads are especially relevant when you apply Program to functors.
< 1568283400 453027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think interleaved I/O makes sense in JavaScript. You need interleaved I/O to write programs like main() { print("what's your name?"); let name = get_line(); print("hi, " + name); }
< 1568283425 241497 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that it's often done with callbacks but that's true in Haskell too.
< 1568283469 604687 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Javascript you *have* to do it with callbacks (or promises, which are glorified callbacks).
< 1568283471 81548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also at most 3/4 coherent at this hour, probably less.
< 1568283501 428160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell you also have to do it with callbacks (even more than in JavaScript, where some systems have synchronous APIs).
< 1568283558 358614 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 'do' notation is just callbacks in disguise.
< 1568283567 894040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, it is.
< 1568283588 609640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about I finish the I/O example which is very simple, and then I'll think of another example.
< 1568283619 983197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a program operating on input bits and producing output bits, you can define a type like this:
< 1568283668 72833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data P = Done | Out Bit P | In (Bit -> P)
< 1568283761 260381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1568283862 497685 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an extra bonus we'll have our programs produce a value, as in
< 1568283877 925914 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data P a = Done a | Out Bit (P a) | In (Bit -> P a)
< 1568283944 265612 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course we could add more constructors to have more behaviors.
< 1568283954 390058 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :P is used to define interactions, but it's really just a kind of tree. Right?
< 1568283971 890617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, you could write "data P a = Out Bit (P a) | In (P a) (P a)"
< 1568284049 120855 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In (P a) (P a)"?
< 1568284072 648770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the previous version make sense?
< 1568284100 948541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bit -> x) has the same information as (x, x) specifying a value for the 0 and 1 cases.
< 1568284152 431389 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The previous version of P is a complicated kind of tree, okay.
< 1568284224 683503 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. It has one kind of leaf -- that's Done -- and a slightly unusual shape of branches, which is one of two things -- either an output "branch" (which has a bit and one child) or an input branch (which has two children).
< 1568284240 261733 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This tree is probably infinite but it describes our entire program.
< 1568284290 30730 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1568284313 959298 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568284316 715259 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The branch shape, in particular, is this: data F a = OutF Bit a | InF (Bit -> a)
< 1568284368 376787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you abstract the branch shape, you can get the type I mentioned above: data Tree f a = Leaf a | Branch (f (Tree f a))
< 1568284434 466875 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1568284485 809556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm not being that helpful here.
< 1568284620 368667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The general point is that this kind of tree describes an interaction with something, and you can have some external program interpret the tree in some way.
< 1568284660 720692 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, another example is making probabilistic choices.
< 1568284718 423634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have a probability tree where each branch is labeled with a probability and you pick the left side with that probability.
< 1568284754 649922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Tree a = Done a | FlipCoin Probability (Tree a) (Tree a)
< 1568284777 66926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An "interpreter" for this tree might sample a particular path through it, or evaluate all the possibilities exhaustively.
< 1568284904 670381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK.
< 1568284947 138372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can try to distill my question.
< 1568284954 481895 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You keep talking about "interpreters".
< 1568285026 862868 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For each of these trees you define, you need an "interpreter" to walk it and make sense of it.
< 1568285160 774429 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, in the first example at least, part of the tree also has a function in it.
< 1568285191 670332 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't "interpret" a function, you can only run it.
< 1568285248 343930 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's not a question I guess.
< 1568285270 458888 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my question is: why is it intuitive to anyone to mix these two modes?
< 1568285278 131785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, this is about "interpreting" the "effects".
< 1568285317 968792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Haskell program already knows how to do computation, but it doesn't know how to do probability, and it doesn't have a source of randomness and so on.
< 1568285353 887675 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we add the notion of random choice (which might be a function (Real -> a), or flipping a coin, or whatever), but we don't say how specifically it's implemented.
> 1568285360 104950 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Epsilo14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66120 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+153) 10/* Where is the source and detailed descriptions!? */ new section
< 1568285400 552080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we end up with this tree data structure which has all the computation built in, but yields to you whenever it needs to take one of these effect actions like flipping a coin.
< 1568285419 523052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your interpreter just adds these extra abilities.
< 1568285535 248085 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining a data structure to represent an external service, and then embedding function types in the data structure to represent the computation you're going to do with the data you get from the external service, gets you a data structure like this.
< 1568285568 97328 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep.
< 1568285573 349102 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people like this.
< 1568285636 649874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this?
< 1568285636 786896 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :People go out of their way to write unification algorithms like this.
< 1568285677 275340 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't really matter if I like it or not.
< 1568285730 791890 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't say "out of their way"; it probably becomes a learned habit after a while.
< 1568285751 560096 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing it the other way, would be going out of their way.
< 1568285785 728597 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Thanks for the explanation.
< 1568285855 158161 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this
< 1568285856 416511 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
< 1568285958 551928 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to sleep.
< 1568287036 641270 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568287146 992071 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568287209 935973 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1568287256 977831 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568287630 878228 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehm, OK. In Javascript the "interpreter" is the thing that waits to dequeue an event, finds the handler(s) for the event, runs the handlers (which may add more events to the queue), and repeats.
< 1568287716 849115 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably define a type that describes this if you had to.
< 1568288072 411935 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in some idealized model of Javascript running in a browser, where the handlers are pure functions, etc.
< 1568288410 860159 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word "trampoline" also comes to mind.
< 1568288622 379052 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568289186 112580 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568291404 631473 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a8.pdf
< 1568292821 372902 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olqmsifsjnflxcrj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568294200 420350 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a8-fix.pdf
< 1568294226 28846 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :clock example was outputting hours:minutes:minutes
< 1568294259 428332 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1568295987 307348 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no...not another bug in documentation
< 1568296830 371744 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: If it means anything, I also have a half-written proof-checker with some issues with beta-reduction and metavariables, sitting in my experiments repo, which I'd like to continue on, but I don't really know where it's going
< 1568296851 815254 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_03a8-fix2.pdf
< 1568297028 553690 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: thanks, I’ll look at it some time!
< 1568297093 540872 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll print out the compiled docs and go through them later.
< 1568297114 54809 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :those were just the key ones i noticed
< 1568298105 89001 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Oh, I haven't released the code publicly, it's still half-formed. You mentioned you had something similar I think.
< 1568298387 635837 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :acpressey: yeah. My code is in a Python notebook :D
< 1568298405 661402 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm why there was “a”
< 1568301434 877555 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568302261 512206 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw it. i'm going from 0.03a8 to 0.10a0
< 1568302318 347880 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all the documentation fixes, it deserved a new version
< 1568303748 750148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568304375 540019 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e80d:aaea:1787:a6a1 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568304593 440095 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:b94d:3094:8ec9:c140 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568305882 256069 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: You'll pry my programmable semicolons from my cold, dead hands
< 1568306405 531565 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1568307109 302491 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568307422 868838 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568307472 728240 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:39cf:ce08:94f8:bba4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568307589 269685 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568307650 552177 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@68-113-127-142.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568308100 503825 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally made an `if` statement. had to add a `last` operator, which rolls to the last element of the queue.
< 1568308358 92316 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/iwafudayes.rb
< 1568308954 440194 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568309688 859767 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a miserable communication failure
< 1568309694 51932 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm.
< 1568309719 835622 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes a good self-referential statement.
< 1568309846 888993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: did you call a shop on phone, they said they had a product or service, but when you went there in person to buy it, they claim they never had it, denied the phone conversation, and tried to upsell?
< 1568309890 224725 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no.
< 1568309989 303200 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: You might enjoy https://notalwaysright.com/all/ ;-) (maybe only some subcategories; your store may belong to "not always legal")
< 1568310000 319423 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*story
< 1568310025 258254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: eww no, that site is addictive and low-quality in the long run. I no longer read it.
< 1568310049 925452 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasted enough time on iy
< 1568310054 2490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1568310081 984919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's better than thedailywtf :P
< 1568311026 24769 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568311061 199475 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hhi
< 1568311153 993614 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: looks comlicated
< 1568311177 323804 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicated*
< 1568312168 479514 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568313371 577111 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yeah, took me a while. though you get good at queue juggling the more you do.
< 1568313401 597431 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you used a dequeue instead.
< 1568313476 141984 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: deque?
< 1568313489 274723 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, deque. :P
< 1568313552 574194 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether there is some natural occurence of deque, like of stack and queue in DFS and BFS
< 1568313587 981698 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: np, I secretly hoped there is a new data structure lurking nearby
< 1568313598 415132 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha.
< 1568313724 707238 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could make a rather usable language if you used a deque, but toggle between where enqueuing and dequeueing take place with operations.
< 1568313743 486669 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could use it like a stack and a regular queue.
< 1568313760 813943 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means RPN works, but deep stack access is possible.
< 1568313811 245554 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also here’s a bad joke I made just few minutes ago and was translating properly: “What do you prefer writing, Sp or tr?” — “I prefer to wipe my shoes”
< 1568313862 348310 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm well it’s even worse in English where trace ≠ track
< 1568313961 498802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you mean a full deque, as oppoed to a queue where you can push on either end but pop only from the start?
< 1568313991 53794 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wtf is Sp, if not span (which has nothing to do with trace...)?
< 1568313993 230756 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: either one suffices maybe
< 1568313995 629136 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh
< 1568313999 778855 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Spur IIRC
< 1568314001 325009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the german "Spur".
< 1568314036 246571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've recognized that immediately. But no... I forgot all the german linear algebra terms it seems.
< 1568314186 405513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn’t even have an idea of Sp vs. tr if not for encountering Sp yesterday by pure chance
< 1568314318 390973 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what do you all think is more natural for a “half-deque”, pushing from bith sides but popping from only one, or popping from both and pushing from one?
< 1568314369 478874 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t know how often these are needed in general
< 1568314374 134501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: pushing on both sides and popping from one, because (1) you can implement it with a singly linked list, and 
< 1568314414 252733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) you can use it to implement a priority queue with only two possible weights, if you don't care which element with the lowest weight is popped
< 1568314444 811757 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I still don't get the joke. It must be really bad ;-)
< 1568314506 318341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, aren't those the same, as in Spur vs trace?
< 1568314533 32147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: like, the second person doesn’t leave tracks so they have no need to call trace either way
< 1568314577 102999 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's trail or track...
< 1568314577 354933 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder in what languages trace and foot track are homonymous
< 1568314587 511471 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or trail!
< 1568314590 765367 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568314605 799285 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn’t remember that one
< 1568314622 354234 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. "Spur" is a curious word.
< 1568314683 557496 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I think of a trail as something long and linguistically uncountable and a track as something countable. Though there are tracks like paths or roads, these ones would be different
< 1568314699 967773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 'trace' covers a similar spectrum of meanings.
< 1568314715 190606 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: also thank you about deque
< 1568314744 527840 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I didn’t really thought on it before now
< 1568314806 253594 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :my fluency is not too high yet maybe, so these things don’t occur as idle thoughts, only when consciously playing
< 1568314925 147449 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :viscous thoughts
< 1568314937 252176 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I already start to make typos of the “to” instead of “too” kind. I hoped that wouldn’t come
< 1568314941 467719 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nah, I think that's a more normal word than the crazy English triplet trace, track, trail, all three of which can be noun or verb, and any two persons I ask explain the difference among them differently
< 1568315020 613537 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm tracking animals by tracing trails
< 1568315081 718490 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :road vehicles that go to places where there are no roads or even paths can be tracked, which means that there's a continuous strip on two of their wheels and that strip is what gives them traction
< 1568315138 233116 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a0.pdf
< 1568315203 100500 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there’s even a DAW called Tracktion. Though they’ve renamed it a while ago
< 1568315573 962538 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568315836 718980 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wutlang14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66121&oldid=50063 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10/* Commands */
< 1568315840 532298 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1568320781 522801 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1568321154 891837 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-14.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568321615 392633 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568321795 377034 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568321801 563159 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568321969 662904 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a factorial function with a queue is uh... irritating.
< 1568321985 680829 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I think.
< 1568322197 889843 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-olqmsifsjnflxcrj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568322258 597181 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Shouldn't be hard as long as you know the size of the queue at each step?
< 1568322287 276140 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect things to be fairly sane in queue-land until you want to do recursion.
< 1568322317 946243 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And no, the factorial function isn't recursive unless you want it to be.)
< 1568322344 127832 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I wrote an iterative version, now I'm trying to write a recursive version.
< 1568322377 556955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see.
< 1568322399 492414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, good luck, have fun!
< 1568322406 631367 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, thanks.
< 1568322412 224258 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got _one_ iteration down.
< 1568322455 388456 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess I'd do the irritating thing where there's a marker in the queue that indicates the end of a simulated stack.)
< 1568322480 669922 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's the sane part.
< 1568322493 750123 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the insane thing is queue juggling via rolling and a 'last' operator, that seeks to the last element in the queue.
< 1568322528 986600 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/jegujageqe.rb the iterative version.
< 1568322569 8549 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first segment is the shortcode, the middle segment is the "readable" version, the final segment is the line noise version of the first segment.
< 1568322786 269449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'roll' just dequeues and enqueues an item.
< 1568322815 334855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :  
< 1568322821 263159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs.
< 1568322859 100056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hatebin)
< 1568322899 83588 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it I should use hatebin then. :P
< 1568322918 604787 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hastebin was down for a non-insignificant amount of time when I last used it.
< 1568323110 582860 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Ugh, does that exist (of course it does, meh.)
< 1568323127 299600 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does. :D
< 1568323133 773429 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd like it. stripped down.
< 1568323138 659949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :        
< 1568323144 702785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see anything to like.
< 1568323157 490764 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I didn't know what you were complaining about. I assumed jquery and highlight.
< 1568323169 153331 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using the Debian pastebin for a reason :)
< 1568323177 449835 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Javascript.
< 1568323181 940901 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs.
< 1568323221 656719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mandatory... fetching the content with XHR. There's no *good* reason for doing that in a pastebin.
< 1568323224 175906 :ghost2501!~ghost2501@190.104.131.206 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568323226 458835 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :until someone does away with the idea of a web browser with arbitrarily executable code being delivered to you, javascript is here to stay. I say that through gritted teeth.
< 1568323326 76102 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a losing fight. But it's also a great filter.
< 1568323355 568670 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :90% of the time when a site demands JS I decide I wasn't *that* interested in the content in the first place.
< 1568323458 916041 :ghost2501!~ghost2501@190.104.131.206 PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1568323794 396063 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568324055 255502 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Anyway, pastebins are one niche where I see *some* prospect of getting people to use non-JS variants. So I keep bringing it up.
< 1568324342 465385 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see.
< 1568324872 461795 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568325148 985477 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568325243 420484 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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< 1568329705 150888 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568329820 854810 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1568329848 283492 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568330738 869374 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568331329 869566 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget factorial, generating a queue of descending integers is hard. :\
< 1568331355 730554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you need a queue of descending integers for?
< 1568331416 3279 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking the problem into two tasks to unblock myself. generate the numbers, then you can interleave the multiplications, etc. into them.
< 1568331438 297386 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 4 3 2 1 * * * * ...
< 1568331441 378355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiplying a queue of descending integers? What could that be for?
< 1568331466 606092 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on a queue-based language.
< 1568331476 312449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing if I can do some basic things in it.
< 1568331482 809203 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, for instance, a recursive factorial function.
< 1568331486 234232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh!
< 1568331489 375593 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot factorial.
< 1568331499 656925 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a product of a range.
< 1568331504 653889 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 * 4 * 3 * 2 * 1
< 1568331508 571592 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you said to forget it.
< 1568331509 256345 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :== 5!
< 1568331521 175679 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
> 1568331717 741859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Encapsulation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66122&oldid=66064 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+6) 10Update computational class
< 1568331933 990529 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: lol
> 1568332073 688047 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66123&oldid=66018 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (+244) 10Update computational class
< 1568332303 346342 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568334222 450781 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0xff, 0x35, 0xba, 0x0a, 0x20, 0x00
< 1568334223 594785 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  ff 35 ba 0a 20 00   pushq 0x200aba(%rip) # 0x200ac0
< 1568334230 984512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that's not right.
< 1568334270 618559 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0xff, 0x25, 0xba, 0x0a, 0x20, 0x00
< 1568334271 599848 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  ff 25 ba 0a 20 00   jmpq *0x200aba(%rip) # 0x200ac0
< 1568334273 857247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the one I meant.
< 1568334688 424767 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I misunderstood what was going on in the debugger somehow. That's actually reasonable.
< 1568335891 960871 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568335958 291538 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'know, I could cheat and just do `last` between every single operation and treat the queue as a stack...
< 1568337610 414905 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1.pdf
< 1568338010 371718 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like "seek to next last item" is a pretty powerful operation for queues. I wonder if it can be simulated using traditional queue ops and markers.
< 1568338574 232994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: when I considered a typed concatenative language I thought it would be useful to make something like “list environment”, as in usual code `f g h`, f should be composable with g with h, and if one wants to make other constraints instead of composability, one would need to treat space between words differently,
< 1568338574 352100 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there would be special brackets to tell that inside spaces have other meaning, and AFAIR I thought that to be expressible as a typeclass (I considered a haskellish type system)
< 1568338574 352153 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :class ListLike a e where { init :: e; add :: a -> e -> e }
< 1568338574 352191 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though this seems too restrictive and I don’t remember if I came up with something smarter that time; anyway the environment defined by an instance of that then desugars like `[1 2 3]` → `add 3 (add 2 (add 1 init))`
< 1568338574 352216 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe you could make an environment where each space means `last` :D
< 1568338574 957911 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it’s a heavy machinery of course, one needs to implement an elegant way to describe what brackets these defined environments use, etc., syntactic matters
< 1568338610 827985 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting... you'd need to have 
< 1568338621 367196 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :spaces evenly balanced, then. or one space between each token.
< 1568338654 214433 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ’s going to sleep
< 1568338661 962494 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet dreams, thanks for the advice.
< 1568338664 21995 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ah, I meant logical spaces
< 1568338699 254355 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, what there is between parsed tokens (nothing, but let’s pretend)
< 1568338715 254095 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you too!
< 1568338718 567373 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, gotcha.
< 1568338732 263936 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that ain't a bad idea.. hm.
< 1568338735 763134 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m late now, I should sleep 2x fast :D
< 1568338742 435923 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol.
< 1568338838 326954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i had general anaesthesia recently it felt like i was sleeping 8x as fast
< 1568338855 347471 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I had a whole night's worth of really deep good sleep in an hour of wallclock time
< 1568338868 415522 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the previous time it didn't feel like an instantaneous time jump
< 1568338874 623398 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have even dreamed
< 1568338926 580005 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a thing that happens, apparently
< 1568338933 736025 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wild.
< 1568338949 450296 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1568338954 734267 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as wild as the galantamine dreams though
< 1568338955 570995 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man
< 1568339018 992241 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568339029 216002 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a truly esoteric dream experience, wake up after 4 hours, take 8mg galantamine, then go back to sleep
< 1568339048 817318 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first time i did it, my dreams were intense and deeply-nested
< 1568339059 226206 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gave up trying to write anything down because every time I tried I realized I was still dreaming
< 1568339087 552736 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I finally woke up for real I exclaimed out loud "Wow! That was something."
< 1568339109 986667 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :next time I think I'll take it with a small amount of LSD
> 1568341072 701355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66124 5* 03A 5* (+239) 10Created page with "[[Kov]] ([K]olmon[o]gro[v]) is a simple language inspired by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/kolmogorov-complexity Kolmonogrov-complexity challenges]. C..."
> 1568341129 587490 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66125&oldid=66124 5* 03A 5* (+394) 10
> 1568341257 499550 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66126&oldid=66125 5* 03A 5* (+156) 10
> 1568341300 570675 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66127&oldid=66126 5* 03A 5* (+173) 10
> 1568341804 309860 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66128&oldid=66127 5* 03A 5* (+634) 10
< 1568341878 789856 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i get a randomly selected quote from HackEso?
< 1568341883 135085 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :matching some regex
< 1568341885 121668 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or list of all quotes
< 1568342047 326235 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i did what i wanted with  `` grep kmc quotes | paste
< 1568342057 604955 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i can bask in the wisdom and wit of many-years-ago me
> 1568342244 604680 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kov14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66129&oldid=66128 5* 03A 5* (+61) 10
< 1568342261 791040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quote kmc | paste" would be the canonical answer probably.
< 1568342270 378426 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear kmc has good quotes.
< 1568342468 34183 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION canonicalizes shachaf 
< 1568342470 923307 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a few good ones
< 1568342485 850314 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocks, truly cocks
< 1568342522 629434 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills'   oh, they mean for your health
< 1568342541 535160 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag
< 1568342542 869743 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11927:2019-09-08  mkx bin/as-encoding//echo "$1" | as -o /tmp/out.o - && objdump -d /tmp/out.o | grep -P \'^ *[0-9a-f]+:\' | sed \'s/^[^\\t]*\\t//; s/ *\\t/: /g\' \ 11926:2019-09-08  mkx bin/as-encoding//echo "$1" | as -o /tmp/out.o - && objdump -d /tmp/out.o | grep -P \'^ *\\d+:\' | sed \'s/^[^\\t]*\\t//; s/ *\\t/: /g\' \ 11925:2019-09-01  learn The password of the month is ninjaed. \ 11924:2019-08-29  `` perl -p
< 1568342547 971941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568342644 998949 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a doag
< 1568342692 999293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -lt tmp/paste
< 1568342694 78972 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :total 564 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000  11630 Sep 13 02:32 paste.2937 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000   1210 Aug  3 03:34 paste.31274 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 115029 Jul 21 10:19 paste.3516 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000    702 Jul 19 23:16 paste.11087 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000      0 Jul 16 12:40 paste.18219 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000   1031 Apr 21 17:05 paste.6806 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000   2146 Apr 14 00:08 paste.4591 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000   1715 Apr 13 23:53 paste.2226
< 1568342698 243857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`url tmp/paste/paste.2937
< 1568342699 94232 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.2937
< 1568342751 578889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're the mannow doag
< 1568342820 239012 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1a.pdf
< 1568342833 718649 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(messed up an example)
< 1568343219 373862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/hog
< 1568343220 179777 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlnp --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
< 1568343234 199960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/dog
< 1568343234 906435 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: bin/dog: No such file or directory
< 1568343262 358678 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not very much orthogonality there
< 1568343457 257210 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, "np" is for "no ping".
< 1568343530 76851 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a" is, presumably, for "all revisions" (including deleted ones). "d" is for "include date".
< 1568343568 725410 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and wtf was your reasoning behind "dogue"
< 1568343609 301590 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err hogue.
< 1568343885 839928 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1ac.pdf (Calibri test version)
< 1568343926 271761 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a good font for documentation?
< 1568345176 468377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dog presumably should exist but since no one ever uses hog it's kind of irrelevant.
< 1568345185 793908 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can trace the etymology.
< 1568345193 513895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original was hog = hg log
< 1568345198 380505 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/hog
< 1568345199 166455 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlnp --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
< 1568345203 411005 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/hoag
< 1568345204 207456 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
< 1568345233 323518 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm not mistaken, "hoag" is named after The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag.
< 1568345255 461886 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anyone cares about the version that doesn't show removed entries, though.
< 1568345267 396528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :doag is the version of hoag that shows dates. That's very useful so no one ever uses the h commands.
< 1568345281 502513 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/hogue
< 1568345283 848502 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: bin/hogue: No such file or directory
< 1568345289 498268 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/dogue
< 1568345290 626471 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: bin/dogue: No such file or directory
< 1568345340 211974 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag bin/hogue
< 1568345341 832014 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :8420:2016-06-09  ` mv bin/ho{gue,ag} \ 8329:2016-06-04  mkx bin/hogue//hg log --removed --template "{desc}\\n" "$@" \ 8328:2016-06-04  mkx bin/hogue//hg log --remvoed --template "{desc}
< 1568345343 693019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag bin/hoag
< 1568345345 473088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9214:2016-10-10  ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/hoag \ 8453:2016-06-12  sled bin/hoag//s/"\\$@"/-- "$@"/ \ 8420:2016-06-09  ` mv bin/ho{gue,ag}
< 1568345354 138650 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't remember that at all.
< 1568345520 22216 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think hog->hogue isn't much less plausible than hog->hoag
< 1568345525 915627 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably they're pronounced the same.
< 1568345604 981081 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: higan
< 1568345623 2677 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a good cat today
< 1568345682 383004 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568345688 645993 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see that
< 1568346094 899067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote kmc
< 1568346095 879006 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :834)  i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
< 1568346127 359975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote kmc
< 1568346129 59610 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :977)  prediction: kmc never comes back  * kmc has joined #esoteric
< 1568346136 776496 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote kmc
< 1568346137 684345 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1058)  are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_   Want to be
< 1568346151 409332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, forgot about that one
< 1568346157 799280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote kmc
< 1568346158 829223 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1004)  LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System
< 1568346164 11428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote kmc
< 1568346164 843352 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1054)  oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...]  i meant elephant   but you know what, ok.   Bike: ...   Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok   plz and thx
< 1568346445 72430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm probably wrongue about "hoag".
< 1568351992 431615 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote shachaf
< 1568351993 234789 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1169)  pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually   Does she have a ring of power?
< 1568351997 465490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote shachaf
< 1568351998 386433 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :737)  U+2205 [∅] NO LETTER O ALLOWED
< 1568352001 593632 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote shachaf
< 1568352005 629088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :915)  shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l   Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer   Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler   "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs"  i think that was in the Ring Cycle
< 1568352010 31412 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote shachaf
< 1568352012 708624 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :716)  elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England.   CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
< 1568352014 318709 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote shachaf
< 1568352016 702074 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1011)  i would visit elliott but i'm vegetarian
< 1568352023 351019 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how one of the shachaf-quotes was actually a kmc-quote
< 1568352026 343185 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm everywhere baby
< 1568352292 566123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like "everywhere continuous"
< 1568352579 364996 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1568352585 767487 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :/o/
< 1568353576 4115 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568353740 25661 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568353943 496505 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568354023 922324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote LC_
< 1568354024 703108 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :915)  shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l   Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer   Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler   "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs"  i think that was in the Ring Cycle
< 1568354117 980118 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568354518 445463 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568354708 4303 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568355404 553196 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh german.
< 1568355508 726275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Which is correct, "Eingabe" or "Eingebung"? )
> 1568356543 915372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Inc14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66130 5* 03A 5* (+411) 10Created page with "[[Inc]] is a joke language that can only add the top of the stack. == Instructions == There is initially a 0 in the stack. * . This increments the top of the stac..."
> 1568356624 381233 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Inc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66131&oldid=66130 5* 03A 5* (-39) 10
> 1568356677 840270 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Inc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66132&oldid=66131 5* 03A 5* (-17) 10
> 1568356694 547880 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Inc14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66133&oldid=66132 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10Golfed this into a one-liner!
< 1568357523 333591 :craigo!~craigo@144.136.206.168 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
> 1568357749 27628 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07GolfJoke14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66134&oldid=66006 5* 03A 5* (+25) 10
> 1568357952 728714 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66135&oldid=65908 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10Removing unnessecary newline in above Argh!
< 1568358269 522943 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5975:f187:1cac:e1ce JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568358277 356191 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568358467 572227 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:e80d:aaea:1787:a6a1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1568358656 294776 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Intramodular Transaction14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66136&oldid=66123 5* 03Hakerh400 5* (-1) 10
< 1568359990 870373 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568361127 1745 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood
< 1568361149 311436 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568361609 433467 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568361660 776350 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Client Quit
> 1568363007 812852 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66137&oldid=60915 5* 03A 5* (+235) 10
< 1568364271 913041 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568364308 873467 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66138&oldid=66137 5* 03A 5* (+3006) 10/* Descriptions */ Upload my notes in Chinese
< 1568364893 376667 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1568365061 243801 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66139&oldid=66138 5* 03A 5* (+189) 10
< 1568365150 371243 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568365428 645134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66140&oldid=66139 5* 03A 5* (+191) 10/* Push */
< 1568365516 23833 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :are games considered an esolang?
< 1568365565 790979 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "Eingebung" is more like an unexpected idea
< 1568365589 759353 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting understanding of something
> 1568365610 632145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66141&oldid=66140 5* 03A 5* (+56) 10/* Float */
< 1568365613 650552 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: It was a trick question. (German is my first language.)
< 1568365624 719606 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay!
> 1568365681 928134 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66142&oldid=66141 5* 03A 5* (+105) 10/* Words */
< 1568365741 486169 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: I should have written "which spelling is correct" to make the intent clearer. (Answer: both).
< 1568365744 522077 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568365800 654714 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66143&oldid=66142 5* 03A 5* (+242) 10
< 1568365935 364108 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Some games definitely come close to being esolangs, and vice versa
< 1568365978 138405 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc the classic example is that Transport Tycoon is Turing-complete
< 1568365978 632864 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: such as OpenTTD, Minecraft, Factorio?
< 1568366048 435800 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenTTD = opensource clone of Transport Tycoon Deluxe, so, yes
< 1568366070 599861 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` for x in quote \' \" q; whatis $x; done # kmc
< 1568366071 458586 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `whatis' \ bash: -c: line 0: `for x in quote \' \" q; whatis $x; done # kmc'
< 1568366077 934059 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` for x in quote \' \" q; do whatis $x; done # kmc
< 1568366079 618615 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote \ quote(8lambdabot) - no description \ '(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote \ "(1hackeso) - show two random quotes \ q(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote
< 1568366148 387141 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you can also just read the quotes from the file "quotes" in hackenv, or use the allquotes command to print them all with line numbering
< 1568366156 794683 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a text file, one quote per line
< 1568366161 804013 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: TC-ness of games are interesting, but I would not consider those an esolang in the sense of the wiki
< 1568366180 256483 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading the files directly without using the commands seems to annoy some people here
< 1568366184 124011 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd make a page for a list of TC games or something like that
< 1568366215 585597 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis quotes
< 1568366216 462794 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotes(1hackeso) - search quote database or print random quote
< 1568366261 78549 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see, you already found the file
< 1568366272 552552 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis doag
< 1568366273 551697 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :doag(1hackeso) - query hackenv version control log, with dates
< 1568366311 466637 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis hurl
< 1568366312 423130 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurl(1hackeso) - no description
< 1568366328 445697 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` type hwrl
< 1568366329 250447 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hwrl is /hackenv/bin/hwrl
< 1568366359 212070 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I don't think anyone cares about the version that doesn't show removed entries, though." => I am interested. I generally use hg log -T "{rev}:{date|shortdate}:{desc}\n" rather than any of your fancy wrappers.
< 1568366366 365151 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis url
< 1568366367 391684 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :url(7) - uniform resource identifier (URI), including a URL or URN \ url(1hackeso) - no description \ url(8lambdabot) - no description
< 1568366431 192793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis whatis
< 1568366432 77324 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions
< 1568366446 523024 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the whatis descriptions for hackeso all come from me, so for any command that I didn't know about, they just say "no description". but they're in a plain text file that you can edit if you want (just be careful because the web `edit form tends to mess up non-ascii files when you save them).
< 1568366485 80923 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whatis descriptions for unix commands and functions don't come from me, they're from the headers of manpages
< 1568366534 326769 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the wisdom database has longer help for some hackeso commands, but that's only occasional, doesn't even try to be exhaustive
< 1568366538 408238 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatis does try to be exhaustive
< 1568366612 268871 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis relcome
< 1568366613 248973 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReLcOmE(1hackeso) - no description \ relcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel, colorfully
< 1568367020 394252 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help fetch
< 1568367022 708007 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`fetch []  downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
< 1568367079 910955 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch share/whatis http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/whatis
< 1568367082 996255 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-13 09:31:22 URL:http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/whatis [752504/752504] -> "share/whatis" [1]
< 1568367116 350359 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis relcome
< 1568367117 313640 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReLcOmE(1hackeso) - CoLoRfUlLy wElCoMe nEw uSeR To iRc cHaNnEl \ relcome(1hackeso) - welcome new user to irc channel, colorfully
< 1568367151 382314 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sled share/whatis//s/^url(1hackeso) - .*/url(1hackeso) - print URL to view contents of a hackenv file/
< 1568367153 803644 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :share/whatis//aio.h(0p) - asynchronous input and output \ arpa_inet.h(0p) - definitions for internet operations \ assert.h(0p) - verify program assertion \ complex.h(0p) - complex arithmetic \ cpio.h(0p) - cpio archive values \ ctype.h(0p) - character types \ dirent.h(0p) - format of directory entries \ dlfcn.h(0p) - dynamic linking \ errno.h(0p) - system error numbers \ fcntl.h(0p) - file control options \ fenv.h(0p) - point environment \ float.h(0p) - fl
< 1568367177 127076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sled share/whatis//s/^hurl(1hackeso) - .*/hurl(1hackeso) - print URL to view version log of a hackenv file/
< 1568367179 487582 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :share/whatis//aio.h(0p) - asynchronous input and output \ arpa_inet.h(0p) - definitions for internet operations \ assert.h(0p) - verify program assertion \ complex.h(0p) - complex arithmetic \ cpio.h(0p) - cpio archive values \ ctype.h(0p) - character types \ dirent.h(0p) - format of directory entries \ dlfcn.h(0p) - dynamic linking \ errno.h(0p) - system error numbers \ fcntl.h(0p) - file control options \ fenv.h(0p) - point environment \ float.h(0p) - fl
< 1568367184 245686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I did those!
< 1568367218 23261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw new ConcurrentModificationException("sorry");
< 1568367242 558733 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm more annoyed at the duplicated work if anything else :)
< 1568367278 781817 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis hwrl
< 1568367279 639717 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hwrl(1hackeso) - link to wisdom entry history in hackenv version control
< 1568367285 458868 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course now this is inconsistent
< 1568367309 526881 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took my lead from
< 1568367311 502973 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis paste
< 1568367312 403818 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :paste(1) - merge lines of files \ paste(1p) - merge corresponding or subsequent lines of files \ paste(1hackeso) - print URL to read a file in hackenv through web \ paste(8lambdabot) - no description
< 1568367333 564064 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis howt
< 1568367334 604242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :howt(1hackeso) - query hackenv version control log for wisdoms, oldest first
< 1568367342 67667 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was inspired by one of these instead
< 1568367386 918111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sled share/whatis//s/^hwrl(1hackeso) - .*/hwrl(1hackeso) - print URL to view version log of a wisdom entry/
< 1568367389 339300 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :share/whatis//aio.h(0p) - asynchronous input and output \ arpa_inet.h(0p) - definitions for internet operations \ assert.h(0p) - verify program assertion \ complex.h(0p) - complex arithmetic \ cpio.h(0p) - cpio archive values \ ctype.h(0p) - character types \ dirent.h(0p) - format of directory entries \ dlfcn.h(0p) - dynamic linking \ errno.h(0p) - system error numbers \ fcntl.h(0p) - file control options \ fenv.h(0p) - point environment \ float.h(0p) - fl
< 1568367406 608647 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 'paste' one could be clarified, since it doesn't really hint that `... | paste` is also a thing.
< 1568367647 650091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the downside of `fetch is that it doesn't really say what is being changed.
< 1568367675 890120 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the sled output isn't that useful for large files either.
< 1568367679 156246 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: do you happen to know if the `edit web interface is supposed to be broken for files that contain non-ascii files?
< 1568367690 625198 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I used it recently, and it messed up the contents of a file
< 1568367698 497906 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed it in private message, but still
< 1568367779 133501 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I didn't know that was a thing. how does that work?
< 1568367792 548064 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's not supposed to be broken, but I'm not super-surprised it is, it's Python3 + Flask + strings. There's probably some way to make it use bytes instead.
< 1568367808 786907 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` seq 170 7 480 | paste
< 1568367809 902346 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6371
< 1568367817 500626 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow indeed
< 1568367821 182146 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool, I didn't know
< 1568367821 387662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just makes a new file in tmp/.
< 1568367905 463109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reaosn I thought `edit was written in Go.
< 1568367919 798188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I guess I wrote the first version of it in Go.
< 1568367940 892325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if I was writing it today, I might have written it in Go.
< 1568368010 812733 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a super-complicated web app, https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackedit/src/master/hackedit.py
< 1568368066 301872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go is kind of scow but Python is too.
< 1568368077 835222 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a small program like this the main thing is library availability.
< 1568368099 504745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should make my own language and give it a bunch of good libraries.
< 1568368309 772004 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Flask documentation doesn't seem to talk too much about whether form parameters are decoded strings or raw bytes. Although it does look like it's calling f.write on them on a file opened with just 'w', so I guess it's in text mode and that's a string.
< 1568368392 780079 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` python3 -c 'print("a" "b")'
< 1568368393 782449 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ab
< 1568368402 731532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of Python, someone told me about that the other day and I was, like, whoa, dude.
< 1568368410 958232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :How C.
< 1568368452 891270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I'd be fine writing a thing like that in C if there was a convenient C library for HTTP servers.
< 1568368460 631682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I saw that mentioned somewhere, in some style guide about how to write long strings.
< 1568368493 791395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs.org/logs/ uses civetweb.
< 1568368494 277254 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, there are C HTTP servers
< 1568368498 727205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The C++ bindings, but still.
< 1568368521 421585 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be wary of them, it's really easy to write bugs in
< 1568368529 401195 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if the label "convenient" is super-applicable either.
< 1568368542 788363 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1568368562 239258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a particular reason they shouldn't be convenient?
< 1568368570 576637 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, wonder if I could run an http server on my vax
< 1568368578 13490 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "they" in general, civetweb in particular.
< 1568368607 988925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, sure.
< 1568368615 624310 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be more convenient in C than in C++, the C++ interface feels a little bit like an afterthought.
< 1568368770 109247 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sep 13 10:10:00 techne.zem.fi esobot[20492]: [135B blob data]
< 1568368775 159863 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point I should fix that. I think it's from the debugging output of the wiki change notification, which includes the color codes, which makes systemd journal think it's binary data not fit for human eyes.
< 1568368953 675862 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's something I learned recently: if you make your thing print out syslog priority annotations at the start of your lines (as in, "<4>warning, warning"), the standard systemd stdout/stderr-to-journal pipe will use them as priority levels.
< 1568369369 933988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/beat//s=$(date +%s); echo @$(((s+3600) % 86400 * 10 / 864))
< 1568369371 686323 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/beat
< 1568369372 927640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`beat
< 1568369373 734228 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​@464
< 1568369386 789782 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :We didin't have a Swatch Internet Time clock yet, I don't think.
< 1568369437 437443 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no! that's not general enough. modify glibc to add a new format for that into strftime, rebuild the whole thing, then we can just use /bin/date for this
< 1568369602 591462 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough, but I'll save that for a rainy day.
< 1568369616 384963 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think it's always three digits, so let's fix that at least.
< 1568369620 871264 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/beat//s=$(date +%s); printf '@%03d' $(((s+3600) % 86400 * 10 / 864))
< 1568369622 582200 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/beat
< 1568369916 789201 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: shouldn't you add a -u switch to date, for future compatibility when the next generation of HackE?o will use new zealand timezone again?
< 1568370053 570109 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: also, I think that truncates to integer seconds prematurely, though that'll be harder to fix
< 1568370062 129624 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568370092 881822 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568370521 518798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568371125 712891 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1568371135 324808 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the +%s format is epoch time, so the -u wouldn't change anything
< 1568371136 43955 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568371406 264195 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo '#!/usr/bin/python3; import math,time; b = math.floor(100*((time.time()+3600) % 86400) / 86.4); print("%03d.%02d"%(b//100,b%100))' | tr \; \\n > bin/beat; chmod -v a+x bin/beat
< 1568371408 158906 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mode of 'bin/beat' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
< 1568371431 319343 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` datei; for x in {0..5}; do beat; done; datei
< 1568371432 938831 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​  File "/hackenv/bin/beat", line 2 \     import math,time \     ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent \   File "/hackenv/bin/beat", line 2 \     import math,time \     ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent \   File "/hackenv/bin/beat", line 2 \     import math,time \     ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent \   File "/hackenv/bin/beat", line 2 \     import math,time \     ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent \   File "/hackenv/bin/beat", line 
< 1568371439 904889 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtfo
< 1568371453 226974 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo '#!/usr/bin/python3;import math,time;b = math.floor(100*((time.time()+3600) % 86400) / 86.4);print("%03d.%02d"%(b//100,b%100))' | tr \; \\n > bin/beat; chmod -v a+x bin/beat
< 1568371455 158864 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mode of 'bin/beat' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
< 1568371459 550219 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` datei; for x in {0..5}; do beat; done; datei
< 1568371461 166630 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-13 10:44:20.077065689 +0000 UTC September 13 Friday 2019-W37-5 \ 489.12 \ 489.12 \ 489.12 \ 489.12 \ 489.12 \ 489.12 \ 2019-09-13 10:44:20.793925337 +0000 UTC September 13 Friday 2019-W37-5
< 1568371478 240890 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` datei; for x in {0..5}; do sleep 1; beat; done; datei
< 1568371485 924911 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-13 10:44:38.662409684 +0000 UTC September 13 Friday 2019-W37-5 \ 489.34 \ 489.36 \ 489.37 \ 489.38 \ 489.40 \ 489.41 \ 2019-09-13 10:44:45.582049236 +0000 UTC September 13 Friday 2019-W37-5
< 1568371519 445891 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ^ will that work? now it doesn't truncate to seconds before the computation
< 1568371591 627504 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should it display no decimal digits?
< 1568372209 536527 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568372241 746226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to be missing another bit of pop culture here
< 1568372331 528837 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it's not really pop culture, it's a stupid marketing gimmick
< 1568372462 431268 :ahrkl!~joes@134.102.173.93 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568372882 874320 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568373191 946683 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm I opened Metamath λ page and saw beta-reduction formalized as, roughly, A: β ⟹ (λx:α A)(x:α) = A, without any explicit substitution. Maybe my thing could avoid them either? I didn’t realize at all that the engine should be able to work with such “reflexive” definitions
< 1568373223 394188 :ahrkl!~joes@134.102.173.93 PART #esoteric :"Leaving"
< 1568373245 426313 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I don’t get how, yet. It should unify the right way but how)
< 1568373248 174571 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: The .xx part is not part of the official beat notation. :/
< 1568373265 974713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I was thinking it should be an option, but couldn't think of a flag for it.
< 1568373270 685429 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-v?)
< 1568373332 698676 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo '#!/usr/bin/python3;import math,time;b = math.floor(((time.time()+3600) % 86400) / 86.4);print("%03d"%(b,))' | tr \; \\n > bin/beat; chmod -v a+x bin/beat
< 1568373334 578495 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mode of 'bin/beat' retained as 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
< 1568373336 146929 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`beat
< 1568373336 927625 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`beat
< 1568373337 65430 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :510
< 1568373337 626074 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`beat
< 1568373337 963079 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :510
< 1568373338 458318 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :510
< 1568373353 558611 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? beat
< 1568373354 794088 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :beat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568373395 781664 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1568373426 145326 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that one alone isn’t sufficient, I would need to see what proofs are using
< 1568376825 835512 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch bin/beat https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/beat
< 1568376827 67029 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-13 12:13:46 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/bin/beat [616/616] -> "bin/beat" [1]
< 1568376833 61740 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` beat; beat -p
< 1568376833 972412 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: /hackenv/bin/beat: python3: bad interpreter: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/beat: python3: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
< 1568376868 148949 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` beat; beat -p
< 1568376869 430633 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[] \ 551 \ [('-p', '')] \ 551.72
< 1568376888 170348 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` beat; beat -p
< 1568376889 402367 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :551 \ 551.95
< 1568376890 997677 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :better
< 1568376897 678104 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ^ -p command-line option now
< 1568377448 981752 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1ac2.pdf does this look appealing to the human eye?
< 1568377731 716212 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1a.pdf compared to this?
< 1568379025 283557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Nice, although what's the -p short for? 
< 1568379038 82429 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Penny?)
< 1568379040 641375 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: precision
< 1568379044 440417 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see.
< 1568379072 28683 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess penny works too
< 1568379079 684256 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only
< 1568379102 222414 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` beat -P4 # it clearly means precision (in the sense that printf uses precision specifiers) here
< 1568379103 197857 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :577.5790
< 1568379114 128409 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` beat -P2; beat -P1; beat -P3; beat -P0
< 1568379115 810000 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :577.71 \ 577.7 \ 577.722 \ 577
< 1568379260 986115 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccbxlkdvmnjrwuyv JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568379598 854973 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :made another version of the documentation in Comic Sans as a joke for my dad. i know better than to put it on the web.
> 1568382453 36046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brank14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66144 5* 03A 5* (+384) 10Created page with "[https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/132385/what-makes-a-language-turing-complete?rq=1 In an answer for this question:] In general, for an imperative langu..."
> 1568382822 412990 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66145&oldid=60916 5* 03A 5* (+328) 10
> 1568383946 296063 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66146&oldid=66143 5* 03A 5* (+170) 10/* Shut */
> 1568384054 319023 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Baba Is You14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66147&oldid=66146 5* 03A 5* (+108) 10/* External Resources */
< 1568384960 419631 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568385134 993469 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568385421 297446 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1568385475 609678 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07EnilKode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66148&oldid=60887 5* 03EnilKoder 5* (+461) 10Mutable
< 1568385658 888048 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let both p1 p2 x = (p1 x) && (p2 x) in let inRange = both (\x -> x > 3) (\x -> x < 8) in inRange 5
< 1568385661 268327 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : True
< 1568385701 809364 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let inRange = (\x -> x > 3) && (\x -> x < 8) in inRange 5
< 1568385704 311704 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1568385704 426966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’
< 1568385704 541988 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :                   with actual type ‘Integer -> Bool’
< 1568385762 802232 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could detect that and coerce that upwards in a general fashion.  I'm not saying you should.  But I think you could.
< 1568386025 90681 :Soni!~quassel@unaffiliated/soniex2 PART #esoteric :"http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."
< 1568386037 414252 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { inRange = (&&) <$> (x > 3) <*> (\x < 8); } in inRange 5
< 1568386039 368966 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:42: error: parse error on input ‘<’
< 1568386045 4355 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1ac3p.pdf (hopefully this is saner to read)
< 1568386046 679171 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { inRange = (&&) <$> (x > 3) <*> (x < 8); } in inRange 5
< 1568386049 9580 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error:
< 1568386049 105882 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • Couldn't match expected type ‘f Bool’ with actual type ‘Bool’
< 1568386049 220747 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :     • In the second argument of ‘(<$>)’, namely ‘(x > 3)’
< 1568386060 901998 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { inRange = (&&) <$> (> 3) <*> (< 8); } in inRange 5
< 1568386063 659464 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : True
< 1568386074 785386 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { inRange = (&&) <$> (> 3) <*> (< 8); } in fmap inRange [0..10]
< 1568386076 715343 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [False,False,False,False,True,True,True,True,False,False,False]
< 1568386079 79186 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: something like that
< 1568386111 439657 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Something like that except the implementation figures it out for you.
< 1568386118 266125 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course it's much easier to write inRange x = 3 < x && x < 8
< 1568386173 798079 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: try that esolang of which I heared of only recently and I don't recall the name
< 1568386197 61826 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really crazy one
< 1568386214 268007 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean echidna?
< 1568386242 612238 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean Husk
< 1568386249 27190 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good try
< 1568386486 336827 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: i gave you yesterday and the day before to not look at echidna.
< 1568386535 880439 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I see, yes. https://github.com/barbuz/Husk/blob/master/Builtins.hs#L90 would handle my example I think?
< 1568386568 983526 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no clue, I don't know how that language works. I looked at the doc'ation and decided it was too crazy for me to try to understand
< 1568386593 614169 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I'm totally guessing anyway.
< 1568386595 171295 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at it because I mentioned some ideas of what an esolang could do, and Husk does do that, but it also does more
< 1568386791 435364 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1568387318 906257 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568387491 949913 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hi
< 1568387995 794683 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568388241 774185 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568388557 873255 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568388804 590403 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568390619 608877 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568390743 454799 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568390906 882323 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568392857 341411 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568393076 434605 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a2_p.pdf
< 1568394665 804291 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my `last` operation seems like something a traditional queue automaton wouldn't be able to do without some significant setup, because you have to know the length of the queue ahead of time.
< 1568394918 644025 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a2_p.pdf
< 1568394925 106166 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1568394930 95265 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :dead link now
< 1568394959 872229 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to get paste to behave
< 1568395379 75673 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a2_p2.pdf should work...
< 1568395452 895664 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568395525 18989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: the links you gave earlier, "http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1ac2.pdf" and "http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a1a.pdf", are broken. do you have an URL for the current rendered documentation?
< 1568395536 303390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait
< 1568395541 950127 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just missed it
< 1568395545 118062 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a2_p2.pdf should work...
< 1568395577 707786 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me know if i mistyped the fixed document
< 1568395579 410637 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one works
< 1568395660 654707 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an emergency fix for an emergency fix
< 1568395702 293558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eso question. Are there words that specifically mean a 12-bit or 24-bit integer, you know, the kind like (byte, char, short, int, long, halfword, word, doubleword, wyde, tetra) but specific enough that they can't apply to 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 bit values?
< 1568395733 270102 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can call them "halfword" and "word" if there aren't, but I'd prefer some specific terminology
< 1568395800 320627 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you asking me for clarification?
< 1568396134 441532 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no
< 1568396148 510767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not yet, at least
< 1568396201 652506 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1568396221 155051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (,+/@:_3{.)^:39] 0 0 1
< 1568396221 886569 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |domain error
< 1568396221 886615 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: |   (,    +/@:_3{.)^:39]0 0 1
< 1568396232 149828 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ (,+/@:(_3&{.))^:39] 0 0 1
< 1568396233 237192 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 0 0 1 1 2 4 7 13 24 44 81 149 274 504 927 1705 3136 5768 10609 19513 35890 66012 121415 223317 410744 755476 1389537 2555757 4700770 8646064 15902591 29249425 53798080 98950096 181997601 334745777 615693474 1132436852 2082876103 3831006429 7046319384 12960201916
< 1568396301 158925 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: like the new formatting?
< 1568396448 889115 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568396483 926885 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-bit apparently has 24-bit as 'sword'.
< 1568396517 502368 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i managed to get copies of calibri, cambria, and consolas onto my linux laptop
< 1568396521 522586 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just call 'em words.
< 1568396529 282075 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the appropriate bit prefix.
< 1568396545 397409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: hmm, interesting. although "thword" might work better.
< 1568396556 725081 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :thword lmao.
< 1568396571 748925 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the problem is, "halfsword" or "halfthword" sound too much like "halfword" unless you pronounce them very carefully
< 1568396586 943373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix(([0,0,1]++).ap(zipWith(flip(-)))(drop 3).scanl(+)0)
< 1568396589 38764 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,0,1,1,2,4,7,13,24,44,81,149,274,504,927,1705,3136,5768,10609,19513,35890,...
< 1568396623 802316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "thyte" for the 12-bit one then
< 1568396634 667631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, not good enoguh
< 1568396645 333615 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fix(([0,0,1]++).join(zipWith(-).drop 3).scanl(+)0)
< 1568396646 982622 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,0,1,1,2,4,7,13,24,44,81,149,274,504,927,1705,3136,5768,10609,19513,35890,...
< 1568396660 226523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@oeis A73
< 1568396661 304164 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : https://oeis.org/A000073 Tribonacci numbers: a(n) = a(n-1) + a(n-2) + a(n-3)...
< 1568396661 421357 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,0,1,1,2,4,7,13,24,44,81,149,274,504,927,1705,3136,5768,10609,19513,35890,...
< 1568396720 497641 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just like (ab)using scanl
< 1568397706 11011 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wrong, you can absolutely implement 'last' using only an end-of-queue marker.
< 1568398228 5511 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what language is that?
< 1568398285 286380 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: Haskell
< 1568398320 409879 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: though in a deliberately concise and incomprehensible style (if you can even call it that).
< 1568398362 950640 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is haskell oo?
< 1568398448 897608 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1568398485 429229 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a pure, lazy, functional programming language.
< 1568398518 437878 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568398572 792411 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let twice f x = f (f x) in twice succ 3 -- 'succ' adds 1 to a number; 'twice' takes a function and applies it two times to a given value... the ability to pass functions to other functions is what makes the language functional
< 1568398572 828944 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems i never learned any functional languages
< 1568398574 848776 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5
< 1568398595 150003 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :except pretty much every language allows you to pass functions to other functions
< 1568398615 888723 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic?
< 1568398615 972385 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :'functional language' like 'object-oriented language' is a fuzzy category
< 1568398629 33601 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :more useful for starting arguments than anything else
< 1568398635 248749 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: function pointers aren't the same. we're getting there, though.
< 1568398641 833401 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is javascript functional? is rust object oriented? whatever.
< 1568398647 781661 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought not having side effects is what makes a language functional
< 1568398654 134256 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fight me twh
< 1568398656 774571 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is c?
< 1568398657 978511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: even java has lambdas nowadays.
< 1568398665 333618 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC)
< 1568398669 49366 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, i told you it was good for starting arguments :)
< 1568398687 915720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fights are foughts exclusively with hugs
< 1568398696 77027 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs shachaf 
< 1568398710 127549 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is C procedural or imperitive? i forgot
< 1568398712 694025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :people sure love aruging about what definitions are
< 1568398724 7550 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not even what they should be, which is a sort of reasonable argument maybe)
< 1568398739 556915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( definitions are arbitrary )
< 1568398789 461084 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( arguing, v.: putting the "defy" into "definition". )
< 1568398798 408807 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? c
< 1568398799 630640 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
< 1568398825 745849 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: it's both I think
< 1568398960 756557 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's imperious.
< 1568398965 768297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And perilous.
< 1568398970 249416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: both. imperative because it's mostly based on mutable variables and assignment rather than immutable values; procedural because it's based mostly on structured control form, as in if/while/for and function calls, rather than goto and gosub.
< 1568399008 125390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the past I would accidentally say "imperial programming language".
< 1568399015 931714 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone actually use vb.net?
< 1568399016 565670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The imperative is mostly a default, you can still write code that is mostly functional, as in, assigning each variable only once at the declaration.
< 1568399028 750043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if/while/for make it "structured", and function calls "precedural"
< 1568399059 981264 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: no, but it's probably basically free to have once you have the compiler and other requirements for C# or some other dotnet language.
< 1568399071 408250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moreover, goto makes it unstructured and NULL makes it expensive
< 1568399095 863854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard it's the zero-terminated strings that make it an expensive mistake.
< 1568399096 417862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is great because it has features like writing f(g(x), h(y))
< 1568399108 153686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't even need to say what registers the intermediate results go into!
< 1568399116 385135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's such a high-level language.
< 1568399165 36279 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was refering to Hoare: 'Tony Hoare introduced Null references in ALGOL W back in 1965 "simply because it was so easy to implement", says Mr. Hoare. He talks about that decision considering it "my billion-dollar mistake".'
< 1568399166 587487 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and c--?
< 1568399187 817253 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I disagree. a language is functional if bindings and values are immutable by default, even if mutability is provided. so standard ML and rust are functional languages.
< 1568399192 200523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog too.
< 1568399199 602649 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and J too in fact
< 1568399205 295859 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :though for J it's more debatable
< 1568399216 693986 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But yes, zero-terminated strings are their own can of worms.
< 1568399220 166792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, J probably shouln't count as functional
< 1568399222 487084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree. A language is functional if it works, and dysfunctional if it doesn't work.
< 1568399235 660553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was referring to https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2010365
< 1568399255 827880 :j4cbo!sid186930@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rhlvmgrmtzwmpdca PRIVMSG #esoteric :is kotlin a functional language by that definition?
< 1568399295 357612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a kotlin?
< 1568399301 489199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kotlin makes me think of chickens, which makes me think of Scheme.
< 1568399319 191101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I've never koppled before.
< 1568399320 262438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1568399323 209428 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :H@0000=000FG@001048656c6c6f2c2057G@00186f726c64210a0000Q!0000=000AW0T@0000@0000=0001J!0000-W0K
< 1568399329 477965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Obviously if you wanted to save space you'd use ASCII and tag the last string element by setting the high bit. (Who needs non-ASCII or empty strings anyway...)
< 1568399329 572210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh
< 1568399334 266981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I've never kottled before.
< 1568399343 506239 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the crazy paste again
< 1568399376 850565 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: What sort of programming paradigm do you feel like you represent most?
< 1568399377 36817 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it refers to the real world is just one hygienic macro system based on closures.
< 1568399390 850576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if you wanted to save space, you'd use five-bit strings with shift codes
< 1568399393 374806 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deep truths day today.
< 1568399405 788808 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But you're right, if you want to pinpoint an expensive mistake that is specific to C, NUL-terminated strings are a good candidate.
< 1568399439 167089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm not sure that even started with C. didn't unix have nul-terminated strings for filenames before C came around?
< 1568399483 212969 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I'm confused about the history here.
< 1568399538 43244 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix and c were created for each other
< 1568399548 649016 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :they got married in 72
< 1568399580 327473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I thought the developments were intertwined.
< 1568399586 60977 :MDude!AdiIRC@c-174-55-101-236.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)
< 1568399586 607068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: UNIX v1 is an early unix (but not the earliest unix) of which we have the full set of manual pages. it precedes C, but is after the invention of pathnames (the earliest unix didn't have that). http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/2/sys-open says that open takes a nul-terminated string as filename.
< 1568399607 497453 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what did MULTICS do on that front?
< 1568399630 493989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX v1 was implemented in some machine language, and only later was a version of unix mostly implemented in C made.
< 1568399635 788870 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't know.
< 1568399660 287956 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be older than unix too, I'm just saying that nul-terminating definitely preceded C
< 1568399661 688189 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Anyway, I would say that since UNIX and C were basically created by the same people, shifting the blame from C to UNIX isn't all that meaningful.
< 1568399669 696080 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no no
< 1568399675 889435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely not the history
< 1568399689 766876 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :same three people
< 1568399748 662117 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix was created by ken and dmr; C was started to get invented by kernigham, then dmr joined by popularizing C by basing the already popular unix to it, so that both userspace programs could be written in C and the kernel was implemented in C
< 1568399777 146288 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dmr did further C by a lot, which is only to be expected when he was its main user,
< 1568399812 164864 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no
< 1568399815 975374 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got that history wrong
< 1568399820 181416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok, you're probably right
< 1568399831 564012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same people
< 1568399850 574004 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I sort of think that unix makes sense even without C
< 1568399861 992386 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix makes sense?
< 1568399913 790222 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568399926 602363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it, the rust people and a certain #esoteric regular both experiment with making a compiler that can make executables that run on unix and uses unix syscalls without depending on either C or libc
< 1568399951 728469 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? member
< 1568399953 69060 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, #esoteric has regulars, not members. Who told you about members? There are definitely no members here, and you wouldn't be allowed to know about them, anyway.
< 1568399953 218800 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think even today the abstractions are a bit separated, even if they are tightly wound together because a lot of basic libraries are implemented in C
< 1568399962 969766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's what I said
< 1568399975 907838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regular
< 1568399995 875524 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if there was such a thing as members, I would not be allowed to tell who is and isn't a member
< 1568400007 826191 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you knew
< 1568400032 131717 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for me, i lost my membership form
< 1568400048 993302 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't /join any channel that would have me as a member
< 1568400084 362889 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't last a minute in one
< 1568400100 159981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I also don't know who are members, and have no way to know, because the only reliable way to verify that someone is a member is the secret handshake, which I also don't know, and since I live in Hungary but no other regular does, I haven't met anyone from #esoteric irl, and so couldn't have shaken their hands
< 1568400129 857447 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know sgeo in rl, and no others.
< 1568400137 77201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh.
< 1568400138 246306 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not deny this
< 1568400166 212773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i'd like to "do the secret handshake" with you, if you know what i mean
< 1568400188 921873 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know
< 1568400191 476876 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sure, that's not a watertight argument, because at least two other #esoteric regulars have admitted to have visited Hungary; and I have been to the UK and Norway and like three other countries where #esoteric regulars work)
< 1568400194 35624 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: does it involve any dismemberment that would explain our lack of members?
< 1568400202 379081 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it involve taking my clothes off
< 1568400216 12522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, that's a more advanced handshake than the one i know
< 1568400216 789310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( let's not get crazy here )
< 1568400219 879529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? alice
< 1568400221 98723 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
< 1568400247 1896 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no. it's a zero-knowledge handshake to any party who doesn't know about the handshake, and dismembering people would be easily detectable so it would break that
< 1568400254 499881 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Have you considered being to California?
< 1568400259 29031 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as i know, sgeo and i were best friends in college. they introduced me to here.
< 1568400267 797930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, and I decided I don't want to be there
< 1568400324 199077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided I want to stay mostly in Europe during the foreseeable future
< 1568400332 513719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe you just have to hide it cleverly (think Kill Bill)
< 1568400357 134764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm, that would explain my messed up sleep schedule
< 1568400431 102066 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the line of "code" i accidentally pasted here was a distilled hello world.
< 1568400543 243725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: What about Hexham?
< 1568400583 767250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that is somewhat more reasonable, I may yet go there at some point
< 1568400639 705860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my next vacation, starting in a week, will be in North-Reine Wesphalia, with one night in München before
< 1568400923 359661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: although of course in the unlikely case that Brexit makes travel to England seriously inconvenient, I won't travel there
< 1568400980 569890 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hope that the current situation is stable: no Brexit, a promise of the intention to Brexit soon, and a sacrifice of two or three prime ministers per year
< 1568401041 162764 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like how Hungary has a contractual requirement to start using the Euro currency within like ten years, and have had so since like fifteen years ago, so we will permanently be planning to start the Euro ten years from the present
< 1568401045 263094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works fine
< 1568401079 978786 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just harder for Brexit because the promise is for a shorter term in the future 
< 1568402161 963167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568402576 708688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many different locations of Google have people working there that are also #esoteric regulars
< 1568402606 611893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whether they represent all the major super-secret branches of Google
< 1568402891 978469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that latter is probably unanswerable
< 1568403968 204833 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reported a bug in Ghostscript and it has now been fixed.
< 1568403977 882745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1568403988 129431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :when did you report?
< 1568404036 533246 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reported it on Sunday; it was fixed on Tuesday.
< 1568404075 140586 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The bug has to do with using the forall command with strings.)
< 1568404891 91444 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to implement 'swap' using only dup, roll and drop.
< 1568404920 552961 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :harder than I thought.
< 1568405131 887558 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :managed to implement 'over' using minimal primitives, which is something.
< 1568405698 8040 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccbxlkdvmnjrwuyv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568406243 597783 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'last' can also be done in constant time. really 'roll' and 'last' are basically just 'rotate queue left' and 'rotate queue right'.
< 1568406541 586035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: is this still the crazy queue-based thing?
< 1568406567 469928 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yessir.
< 1568406587 409470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: why don't you add named lexically local variables to this interpreter, and then implement swap as { /a /b b a }
< 1568406590 371702 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added an operation that lets you recall an item from the end of the queue to the front of the queue.
< 1568406613 498229 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that for an ordinary stack-based language like GML it would be { /a /b a b }
< 1568407249 172262 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568407312 526831 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qumwdridzklutixt QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568407325 211812 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uxmotyuejwwafljo QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568407328 177998 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yczziazegdstpdyg QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568407334 324050 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-tzmeikvoehlzdhss QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568407341 928029 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-jhmrgrszbwryhqcc QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568407436 333482 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexically scoped variables are too complex for the scope of this interpreter.
< 1568407451 332928 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's kinda funny how that's a little non-intuitive.
< 1568407492 575175 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"here's your parameters in order... and here they are again, but they're technically swapped because of the behavior of the stack."
< 1568407536 970956 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/equnosetok.txt
< 1568407570 637265 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops.
< 1568407586 877109 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/welojekoqu.txt
< 1568407590 101452 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there.
< 1568407796 935443 :Camto[m]!camtomatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hklaharioznmxtlq JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568407931 356921 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pretty literal translation of an iterative factorial algorithm that I wrote in forth.
< 1568408072 702339 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568408273 421063 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568408276 60586 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568409102 82436 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nkyoofedduofuadb JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568409102 751820 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-anexfrqatduauchm JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568409102 839199 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-eriviuiptixtscla JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568409110 43101 :ivzem[m]!ivzemmatri@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-kzhprbvndwmpaiaf JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568409306 60218 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, it didn't work. but it didn't work because of the way I do math.
< 1568409462 67825 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hastebin.com/gebucenehe.txt an updated version, plus a direct Python translation: https://repl.it/repls/LongtermBruisedDeals
< 1568409673 379764 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pretty neat, because by the virtue of 'roll' and 'last', you can skip over newer elements in favor of old ones. 'last' can be implemented in a reasonable manner in a typical queue automaton by using the current state as temporary storage, and in an implementation with a circular buffer, can be done in constant time.
< 1568409696 518390 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's effectively a tape that grows and moves to the right on insert.
< 1568414875 180262 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought a open source implementation of Magic: the Gathering should have a command line interface. At many prompts, you can enter a blank line to use the default action or to use a shortcut. The "priority prompt" might say something like "Mark:m1:0>" if the active player is Mark, the current phase is the precombat main phase, and the stack is empty.
< 1568415107 654032 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :u=upkeep, d=draw, m1=precombat main, bc=begin combat, da=declare attackers, db=declare blockers, fs=first strike combat damage, ns=normal strike combat damage, ec=end combat, m2=postcombat main, e=end, c=cleanup.
< 1568416277 379391 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568416718 278079 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: should my subs have return values?
< 1568416943 885824 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568417054 957271 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568418215 519731 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568421533 989070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, x86-64 has 64-bit push and 16-bit push, but not 32-bit push?
< 1568421539 816087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %rax
< 1568421540 914639 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  50   push %rax
< 1568421542 392184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %eax
< 1568421543 260750 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push'
< 1568421544 765101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %ax
< 1568421545 778341 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 50   push %ax
< 1568421550 434761 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %al
< 1568421551 522264 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push'
< 1568421661 883546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1568421702 745931 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back when we were doing the printable code thing here for a while, that was annoying, because on x86-32 you can just push values without leaving any gaps.
< 1568421742 539447 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I knew it didn't have 32-bit push, but I thought that also applied to 16-bit.
< 1568421757 790041 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a bizarro situation.
< 1568421768 463155 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shvuoyfipcwoqgkk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568421774 916590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was already surprised by 32-bit operations clearing the upper 32 bits and 16-bit operations not.
< 1568422199 861335 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to the manual, you can also push fs and gs in 64-bit mode, but not cs/ds/es/ss. Which I guess makes some sense, since there's the whole thing of cs/ds/es/ss always having a base of 0 while fs/gs are sort of usable in address calculations, but it's not like the registers didn't exist.
< 1568422206 525995 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %fs
< 1568422210 85646 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f a0   pushq %fs
< 1568422211 621112 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm push %ds
< 1568422213 841957 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `push'
< 1568422219 838025 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet...
< 1568422229 828406 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %fs, %ax; mov %ds, %ax
< 1568422230 745946 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 8c e0   mov %fs,%ax \ 3:  66 8c d8   mov %ds,%ax
< 1568422260 189523 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the manual mentions that 66h prefix is unnecessary, and that most assemblers will let you use...
< 1568422264 36854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %fs, %eax
< 1568422265 2098 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  8c e0   mov %fs,%eax
< 1568422271 868609 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid it.
< 1568422277 688920 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The effect is apparently the same.)
< 1568422305 210941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a bizarro world.
< 1568422313 422159 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %fs, %rax
< 1568422314 269265 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 8c e0   mov %fs,%rax
< 1568422318 57611 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we scrap x86 and switch to something reasonable?
< 1568422319 814719 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :beauty
< 1568422333 207525 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, once intel goes out of business
< 1568422663 63429 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect Intel could make pretty good processors for other instruction sets if they tried.
< 1568422712 924110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Intel is looking at their die area for high performance CPUs, sees they're spendin 1-2% of it on instruction decoding, shrugs, and moves on.
< 1568422745 528214 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel made strongarm i think
< 1568422750 756712 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, instruction decoding specifically isn't the only problem with x86, I think.
< 1568422760 467343 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe, but don't know, that the rest of the CPU would remain largely the same complexity anyway.)
< 1568422768 267839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I understand it they spend quite a bit of die area and power on things that a better instruction set wouldn't require.
< 1568422781 415100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again they made Itanium so who knows what better instruction set they would make.
< 1568422810 513872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Itanium was a spectacular failure though.
< 1568422815 943051 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :EPIC, even.
< 1568422834 109374 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :IA-64 was a disaster
< 1568422854 905402 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :took amd to do it
< 1568422881 375694 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make x86-64
< 1568422924 60537 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMIX is better, I think
< 1568422929 174859 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody's made a forward-compatible VLIW instruction set yet. So... you pay with huge bandwidth for a simpler processor, and the next generation will carry all the multiscalar baggage as the processor tries to identify parallel work dynamically, because they need to exploit parallelism simply can't be establish statically anyway.
< 1568422965 592073 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :IA-64 was Itanium, no?
< 1568422969 584516 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568423014 897002 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :EM64T is the best name.
< 1568423032 27482 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's intel's name
< 1568423043 321640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they gave up on it too.
< 1568423050 528217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just Intel 64 now.
< 1568423632 906453 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568423654 297382 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568423827 401871 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr...found a bug in my interpreter i thought i patched
< 1568424226 442113 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's a new bug
< 1568424331 217690 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :or newly-found
< 1568425146 746370 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it hits: while(a=='\n') a=putchar(); and acts strangely on the previous value of a
< 1568425179 211938 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568425205 896283 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't even remember the previous value
< 1568425322 937333 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a proof-of-concept of a switch in echidna
< 1568425396 821212 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent of: if(a=='\n') a=putchar(); // behaves normally
< 1568425422 135523 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent of: while(a=='\n') a=putchar(); // gives impossible output
< 1568425496 761196 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :trace it!
< 1568425608 561756 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? i'm blanking out on it
< 1568425614 37464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell whether that's supposed to be getchar() or not.
< 1568425652 119215 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit
< 1568425669 284909 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent of: if(a=='\n') a=getchar(); // behaves normally
< 1568425677 322021 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent of: while(a=='\n') a=getchar(); // gives impossible output
< 1568425701 434887 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's more plausible.
< 1568425742 718376 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, step the interpreter one instruction at a time.
< 1568425746 524407 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: what do you mean by "trace it!"
< 1568425755 281000 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how?
< 1568425757 751264 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :print out an instruction trace.
< 1568425767 219692 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how?
< 1568425770 854724 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e what instructions you're executing, along with the content of main memory.
< 1568425776 938524 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean how? presumably you have access to those things.
< 1568425807 215148 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :um...
< 1568425843 190488 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: i don't like being called an idiot for not knowing some things
< 1568425885 22667 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i print out an instruction trace?
< 1568425894 312445 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't an idiot, I just assume that you're writing an interpreter that you have access to things like which instruction you're executing, and what the contents of main memory is.
< 1568425916 995895 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's literally just a printout of what instructions you're executing when they're executing.
< 1568425927 275424 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1568425938 258157 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify the interpreter
< 1568425947 671297 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes.
< 1568425948 678308 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :to output that
< 1568426010 449349 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568426049 733582 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, by the way, main memory is 64KiB in size
< 1568426085 170591 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm only using the lower 4 words in this example
< 1568426096 966651 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: 128 KiB
< 1568426115 418137 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to afkland
< 1568426282 269213 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568426523 869334 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568426978 890915 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568427935 204025 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so for some reason it's skipping an earlier "I @0000"
< 1568427977 696949 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i thank imode?
< 1568428143 873833 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568428189 304188 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also misses an -W1
< 1568428231 255415 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird
< 1568428237 222858 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi adu
< 1568428276 748180 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568428306 404007 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up
< 1568428841 661460 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`thanks imode
< 1568428842 436569 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, imode. Thimode.
< 1568428845 307069 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure that sort of thanking is particularly useful, but it's the best we have.
< 1568428888 55359 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x48, 0x89, 0x04, 0x64
< 1568428889 90039 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  48 89 04 64   mov %rax,(%rsp,%riz,2)
< 1568428908 986989 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I'm doing the whole ModR/M and SIB byte thing properly, I see what you mean about %riz.
< 1568429543 108991 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed
< 1568430749 925041 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shvuoyfipcwoqgkk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568431167 271618 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568431174 841626 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the echidna-debug program for v0.10a2a outputs 256 bytes per cycle. (64 bytes of argument var and first 96 words of memory (total 65536 words))
< 1568431354 90208 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the key words are between 0000 and 005F anyway.
< 1568431994 270197 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568433482 874580 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568433533 873687 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568437142 309405 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1568438262 37306 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bug in Ghostscript that I reported existed since version 3.33. "9999 string {} forall" doesn't work, but "9999 string {0 add} forall" does work. Commit 8675b40266cbf9771a08f4178a6009cfd17e0ba corrects the bug.
< 1568438897 356175 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568441629 939826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://raw.githubusercontent.com/espressif/binutils-esp32ulp/master/opcodes/i386-opc.tbl
< 1568441635 218960 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why doesn't Intel publish a file like that?
< 1568442034 743504 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-56.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568445518 707193 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568446002 288186 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568447775 515733 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568450269 87327 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568451388 58873 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1568451650 946876 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568452379 518813 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1568454164 36220 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66149&oldid=65092 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+157) 10/* Bug: Why is HQ9F+ shown on no category pages? */ new section
> 1568454198 939139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HQ9F+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66150&oldid=64738 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+22) 10
> 1568454345 935511 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66151&oldid=66149 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+270) 10/* Bug: Why is HQ9F+ shown on no category pages? */
> 1568454553 956887 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07COBOL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66152&oldid=47135 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+1) 10I wanted an indent
> 1568454607 138274 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66153&oldid=66151 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+649) 10/* Bug: Why is HQ9F+ shown on no category pages? */ An answer of sorts.
< 1568455712 878491 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568456888 844493 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568456951 218467 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568457077 529918 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chafa14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66154&oldid=65347 5* 03A 5* (+526) 10So just a reference of Zalgo characters
< 1568457153 532993 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the PDP-8 cpu has an interesting instruction set. just like all old cpus, it's optimized to allow dense code while being implementable in very little electronics. but the way PDP-8 achieves this is very different from newer cpus that I'm somewhat familiar with, like the 6502.
< 1568457272 37169 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, PDP-8 is accumulator-based, but has no straight load instruction: instead it has an instruction that loads a value and adds it to the accumulator with carry, and an instruction that loads and does some bitwise op with it to the accumulator, plus there are multiplex operations that allow you to clear the accumulator, clear the carry flag, plus the store operation also automatically clears 
< 1568457278 31978 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the accumulator.
< 1568457316 689033 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the memory is made of 12-bit bytes, and each instruction takes exactly one 12-bit byte.
< 1568457347 681249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should look at other popular old cpus from the core memory era to see what other interesting methods they use.
< 1568457477 310068 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"how do i thank imode?" => we don't have a widely used system of imaginary internet points and badges for #esoteric yet
< 1568457661 605085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@thanks imode
< 1568457661 882346 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are welcome
< 1568457669 800021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that doesn't work
< 1568457688 4836 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-adytfhcdxephwocg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568457689 743983 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma+ imode
< 1568457690 89031 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode's karma raised to 1.
< 1568457694 708283 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ah yes, that's the command
< 1568457715 44604 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we have an equivalent implemented in HackEso, but the bot is very programmable, so you could implement something
< 1568457775 202716 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot also listens to all user++ messages and silently increments karma
< 1568457778 490360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma user
< 1568457778 882775 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :user has a karma of 0
< 1568457787 706533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. user++
< 1568457789 647750 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma user
< 1568457790 13330 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :user has a karma of 1
< 1568457798 177379 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess user had negative karma. That makes sense.
< 1568457836 144077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ah
< 1568457890 437929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but I didn't see the original question.
< 1568457905 815949 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can thank people by typing "thank you", for example.
< 1568457917 81036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a better system than incrementing a number related to their name.
< 1568457933 748698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "Now that I'm doing the whole ModR/M and SIB byte thing properly" => when tom7 made his ABC compiler, I was very surprised that the 386 cpu uses 32-bit modr/m format in 16-bit mode if you use the address-size override prefix, but in retrospect that makes sense
< 1568457977 901510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, that's a good way to thank someone. but it may still make sense to have a system of giving imaginary internet points and achievement badges
< 1568457988 626460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does lambdabot also listen to "thank you" messages?
< 1568458001 133352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean?
< 1568458011 465391 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but the recipient of the thank you down, which is more important.
< 1568458018 508137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@karma
< 1568458018 856438 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a karma of 99
< 1568458025 564296 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you say "thank you, imode" on the channel, does lambdabot increment the karma of imode?
< 1568458026 239233 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure most of that is fake oerjan karma.
< 1568458042 571086 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the 32-bit modr/m format?
< 1568458087 882838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` mov %ax, (%bx,si)
< 1568458089 390849 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: `mov %ax, (%bx,si)'
< 1568458092 422576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm mov %ax, (%bx,si)
< 1568458093 964022 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: bad or irreducible absolute expression \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: expecting scale factor of 1, 2, 4, or 8: got `si' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: missing ')' \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk `)' after expression
< 1568458113 49321 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that's normally used in x86_32 code in 32-bit protected mode
< 1568458182 376811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, this makes no sense of course.
< 1568458189 141405 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets you select a base register plus 0 or 1 or 4 byte long offset with just a mod/rm byte, or a base register and a scaled index register and a 0 or 1 or 4 byte offset with a modr/m plus sib bytes, and lets you use %ecx or %eax as base registers
< 1568458210 950214 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't imaginary Internet points and achievement badges a bad incentive?
< 1568458258 288147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to the 16-bit addressing mode where sib bytes are never used, you can't use %cx or %ax as base or index registers, but you can select %si+%bx or %di+%bx in a modr/m byte
< 1568458299 341956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure glad 64-bit mode is the only one that matters.
< 1568458319 377415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also both the 16-bit and the 32-bit modr/m format has some magical segment choice implications where if you use certain indexing modes, the address is relative to %ss rather than %ds by default, though you can override this in any case
< 1568458324 527168 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure
< 1568458344 169765 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only this is #esoteric so sometimes we talk about things that don't matter
< 1568458352 233874 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that you don't want to use in production
< 1568458363 262619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. But implementing 64-bit mode is enough of a headache for me right now.
< 1568458388 538528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1568458416 336857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I tell whether my addressing mode implementation is correct?
< 1568458870 542309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does x86 have a nop with immediate? I could use it to mark my output to recognize parts of it easily.
< 1568458975 989849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0x80, 0, 0, 0, 0
< 1568458976 975455 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f 1f 80 00 00 00 00   nopl 0x0(%rax)
< 1568458991 597992 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0x80, 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D'
< 1568458992 645636 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f 1f 80 41 42 43 44   nopl 0x44434241(%rax)
< 1568458995 121800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that works.
< 1568459319 271669 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0200, 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D'
< 1568459320 190124 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f 1f 80 41 42 43 44   nopl 0x44434241(%rax)
< 1568459323 607139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0210, 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D'
< 1568459324 677495 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f 1f 88 41 42 43 44   nopl 0x44434241(%rax)
< 1568459334 451624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x0f, 0x1f, 0270, 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D'
< 1568459335 449838 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  0f 1f b8 41 42 43 44   nopl 0x44434241(%rax)
< 1568459338 491987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many nops.
< 1568459370 526938 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/nop only says the /0 variant is a nop, though.
< 1568460290 924929 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568460338 898319 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568460984 300205 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568461167 537079 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Apple3.1414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66155&oldid=49628 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* How high will it go? */
> 1568461292 169878 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PFD14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66156 5* 03A 5* (+1478) 10Created page with "'''PFD''' is an esolang made by [[User:Cortex|Cortex]] designed to have very small code and many useful commands, but the only way to see what it actually did through the whol..."
> 1568461392 56905 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PFD14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66157&oldid=66156 5* 03A 5* (-1417) 10Redirected page to [[Https://esolangs.org/wiki/Print Function Deluxe]]
< 1568461418 874001 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
> 1568461421 149196 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PFD14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66158&oldid=66157 5* 03A 5* (-26) 10Redirected page to [[Print Function Deluxe]]
< 1568462162 874267 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568462202 625 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568462243 270500 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Print14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66159 5* 03A 5* (+1345) 10Created page with "'''Print''' is an esolang made by [[User:Cortex|Cortex]] designed to make [[Print Function Deluxe]] programs (slightly) shorter.  == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Char..."
< 1568462433 159724 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's this A that edits everything?
> 1568463187 566037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Print14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66160&oldid=66159 5* 03A 5* (-11) 10
> 1568463671 393033 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Print14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66161&oldid=66160 5* 03A 5* (+141) 10
< 1568463758 552820 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568463937 393461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the intel manual also says that only the /0 variant of the 0F 1F instruction is a nop
> 1568464028 197511 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Lesidhetree14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66162 5* 03Lykaina 5* (+156) 10Discovered an old account of mine from when I used a different name in rl.
< 1568464242 698394 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, i was crazy in 2015
< 1568464267 362869 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can also use the PREFETCHT2 instruction, whose opcode is 0F 18 /3, as a nop to mark your things. it's slightly less efficient than true nops, but still reasonably good.
< 1568464336 547041 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are possibly remnants of the "fourfuck" code in echidna's interpreter.
< 1568464348 380296 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, of course, you could put markings in parts of the code that are never executed, or an immediate load to a dead register, or a marking into a debug section or some other elf section that isn't loaded to memory
< 1568464502 797024 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know echidna's interpreter was originally based on hydra51's, a failed attempt of mine long ago to make an 8051 clone in C.
< 1568464543 553975 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i forgot if there was any connection between hydra51 and fourfuck
< 1568464608 152230 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hydra51 wasn't esoteric
< 1568464669 656223 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it began my trend of naming my language attempts after animals.
< 1568465049 221188 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/splash-down/
< 1568465050 418270 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/splash-down/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
< 1568465074 500149 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably ones with mythological connections
< 1568466341 755517 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568466570 958138 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568467812 432827 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to stop and learn to program in Echidna before i edit more.
< 1568467846 271458 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: what would echidna be best at?
> 1568467941 528045 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Espro14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66163&oldid=66046 5* 03Timwi 5* (+5) 10
< 1568469996 647505 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568470463 922661 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568470555 526344 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568473081 478491 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: are you ignoring me or just busy?
< 1568473158 487823 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i being passive-agressive again? i hate when i'm like that...
< 1568473233 202554 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a personality flaw i've really been working on.
< 1568473554 869818 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568473605 762849 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i am incapable of "getting the hint" (whatever that hint is).
< 1568473621 572986 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi imode 
< 1568473730 209807 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Lykaina.
< 1568473740 925324 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up?
< 1568473801 71316 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a little annoyed at self for possibly reverting to my old passive-aggressive state
< 1568473837 645791 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i really have to learn how to write in my Echidna language.
< 1568473950 501563 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one thing to make a language, it's another thing to learn to write in it, especially if it is esoteric.
< 1568474046 954873 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's why I'm putting my focus on figuring out different algorithms and control flow structures before I decide whether a full-on interpreter is a good idea or not.
< 1568474075 12350 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm developing the language and interpreter at the same time
< 1568474144 751653 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/WetViolentParallelcompiler
< 1568474159 490431 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 161 onward.
< 1568474183 983022 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your language is small, it should be easy to write and rewrite an interpreter for it.
< 1568474251 974741 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still changing and improving it
< 1568474264 483839 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you seen it?
< 1568474290 710588 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to force myself to stop at 0.10a2a
< 1568474309 323823 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most recent modification was a bug fix
< 1568474383 89250 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_10a2_p2.pdf
< 1568474409 789853 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you writing the intepreter in?
< 1568474420 835151 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :C
< 1568474556 750141 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe start with a higher level language for prototyping?
< 1568474575 322448 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :c isn't high level?
< 1568474771 522977 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the languages i have learned, c is the only one i remember well.
< 1568474774 501480 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not got a lot of useful constructs for prototyping.
< 1568474822 705278 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i program console mainly
< 1568474836 390914 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever I work in a project, I usually take two languages: a prototyping language and an implementation language.
< 1568474876 391086 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is prototyping? i'm a little confused
< 1568474925 642652 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you work in an environment that's easier to build things in to finalize a design, then you implement that final design in your actual environment.
< 1568475024 907884 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is easy for me
< 1568475038 920889 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i do a lot of command line
< 1568475080 229202 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :object-orienting gives me a headache
< 1568475098 946785 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's why i don't use c# much
< 1568475215 166911 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what am i doing wrong?
< 1568475352 513882 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I'm not writing your interpreter.
< 1568475392 581423 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i created choose.ech, a proof of concept for a switch in echidna 0.10a2, and encountered a bug i thought i patched a while ago
< 1568475419 138270 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed it in .10a2a
< 1568475503 717967 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :same command list, so the pdf still applies
< 1568475607 153948 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the things i do is use a bunch of c files. remnant from learning java/c#, where every class has it's own file.
< 1568475683 383243 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i split my interpreter amonst many .c and .h files for versioning reasons
< 1568475791 186510 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :C's default string manipulation functions suck
< 1568475800 707286 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1568475823 690592 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also strings with length stored are better than nul-terminated ones for a lot of stuff
< 1568475837 719725 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568475957 400383 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer getchar/putchar over scanf/printf
< 1568475986 875192 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568476190 48217 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do use fprintf for error messages, though.
< 1568476300 104160 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the book tcpl cover the standard library?
< 1568476518 526484 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind, can't afford it anyway
< 1568476596 450625 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :"strings" in c are just char arrays.
< 1568477254 563556 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568477294 271557 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568477570 906000 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568481121 271500 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568481255 519184 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568481600 689404 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1568481702 521968 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :got a hidden debug mode implemented!
< 1568481773 160057 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a backdoor?
< 1568481837 225601 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568481909 123163 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :just displays the cmd read and the first 96 words of internal ram on stderr whenever a cmd is read
< 1568481936 106398 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/internal ram/program memory/
< 1568482049 527004 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :addresses 0000 to 005F
< 1568482081 609846 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a "invisible" X server that does not have any input/output on the display and keyboard and so on, so is only usable to implement drawing functions and to allow programs to exchange data with window properties and selections?
< 1568482372 575502 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1568482432 19111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xvnc is invisible and still allows drawing.
< 1568483056 305627 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, two of them, and I think we talked about them on the channel
< 1568483073 111500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one vnc-related and one or two others
< 1568483184 508597 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall their names, but it's in the channel logs somewhere... sad
< 1568483209 328613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xvfb is one of htem
< 1568483312 980029 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i need to know: have you been ignoring me? Maybe i missed a hint...
< 1568483407 450778 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll assume you are just busy
< 1568483407 538134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568483429 659529 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry...
< 1568483525 106649 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap...
< 1568483539 81096 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i chased them away
< 1568483913 818394 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out you _can_ write recursive functions using a queue, provided you have operators that treat it as a stack. :P
< 1568484039 692514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568484060 989223 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I parted for an unrelated reason
< 1568484190 647917 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
> 1568484634 700194 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Enchant3d 5*  10New user account
< 1568484702 976549 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so scared
< 1568484754 198466 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why
< 1568484956 406198 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568485287 31106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fungot style provides gratuitious stock market tips?
< 1568485287 117453 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: be less specific. :) but no fnord.
< 1568485354 706568 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style
< 1568485354 785699 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1568485377 845915 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :less specific? which fungot style provides gratuitious tips on how to get rich quickly?
< 1568485377 892476 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if it matches
< 1568485381 648113 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style qwants
< 1568485381 693365 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found.
< 1568485388 144423 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style qwantz
< 1568485388 181729 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
< 1568485391 498193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568485403 525549 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style fisher
< 1568485403 571374 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
< 1568485414 575486 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: blah
< 1568485414 763222 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah so and
< 1568485417 827179 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568485422 618789 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: how's mom?
< 1568485422 770346 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: was just saying noise no because if they if the class if the students have access to computer twenty four seven
< 1568485446 525005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style enron
< 1568485446 604995 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
< 1568485453 349267 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fraud?
< 1568485453 576012 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you know of any " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " position" ( " 
< 1568485470 793012 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad we settled that...
< 1568485478 600668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: loop?
< 1568485478 831301 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the bonds. briarpark ln. from the electronic version of the construction of the california legislature. bass" eric.bassenron.com to: " it is the only two: a band of choctaw indians, unable to attend any or any combination of the plan.
< 1568485496 717354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc
< 1568485496 753746 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
< 1568485655 344441 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1568485669 863700 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λx:μX.X→A.(unfold x)x) (fold λx:μX.X→A.(unfold x)x)
< 1568485720 857035 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: lambda mu nu
< 1568485721 28300 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the is metaphorical, so it's the same thing :) i'd guess by alonzo church though
< 1568485785 3195 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I expecte mu X.X -> X
< 1568485811 964146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, do you understand indirect type recursion with the Mu type?
< 1568485812 30544 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but it's a slow daemon :(
< 1568485819 903492 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also shouldn’t I write νX.X→T or is μ okay for these kinds of functors)
< 1568485862 521142 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and neither mu nor nu make so much sense with contravariant functors?
< 1568485867 687142 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I like the version with A as we can inhabit any type we pick, like 0
< 1568485899 100244 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that term overall has type A)
< 1568485904 962424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh I don't know this stuff. Sure, you're somewhere in domain theory territory, but I don't know whether they can still support different kinds of fixed points nicely.
< 1568485929 803085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t fix id
< 1568485931 280435 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I read Pierce on significance of μX.X→X, yeah (exactly today, even)
< 1568485931 386955 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :a
< 1568486010 545787 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, fix id is simpler when we already have fix typed, but I think typing omega by itself is a bit less long
> 1568486033 905661 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66164&oldid=66041 5* 03Enchant3d 5* (+279) 10/* Introductions */
< 1568486219 15340 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I’m dabbling in deep waters here too, I heard about something which has sense only for covariant/contravariant functors but I don’t remember that
< 1568486235 938621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568486249 984412 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568486501 820182 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm now I realize X ↦ (A → X, X → A) is not a functor? Not can it be covariant nor contravariant
< 1568486550 699760 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :either I’m wrong or it looks strange
< 1568486622 483303 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I realize I don’t remember what the class of contravariant functors is called in Haskell if there is one name somewhere
< 1568486698 113164 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's -> is very different from -> in Set.
< 1568486967 497199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: must be "Cofunctor", everything in Haskell is called co-something
< 1568486968 293493 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? co
< 1568486969 509168 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :co? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568487006 419554 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocoa coated co-cones
< 1568487025 692870 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the breakfast cereal for category theorists
< 1568487115 369688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: hmm what do category theorists do when they can't sleep? (set theorists count to aleph_1)
< 1568487167 120229 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh poor set-theorists
< 1568487176 422564 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1568487241 863801 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe then they sleep for infinity
< 1568487317 169974 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` python -c 'import time; time.sleep(float("inf"))'
< 1568487318 190496 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "", line 1, in  \ IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
< 1568487364 804275 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-084-063-063-063.084.063.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568487543 742055 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so evidently Python is not a set theorist
< 1568487697 596037 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! let me try something
< 1568487703 773319 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` python -c 'import time; time.sleep(-1)'
< 1568487704 710595 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Traceback (most recent call last): \   File "", line 1, in  \ IOError: [Errno 22] Invalid argument
< 1568487745 889010 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can’t sleep backwards, too bad
< 1568487747 906535 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Negative numbers are a cardinal error. )
< 1568487780 690730 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a non-eso world, I think sleep(-1) should do the same as sleep(0), return very soon
< 1568487784 109139 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe I should go the whole mile and write "sin" there?
< 1568487786 806747 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: (rofl)
< 1568487798 267196 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an eso world, sleep(-1) should use a time machine to go back one second
< 1568487834 218543 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but sin is not a cardinal. At least I think in ZFC it shouldn’t be by any accident
< 1568487871 917885 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can do that by first noting the current time, then sleeping until a reliable software time machine implementation becomes available, installing and dynamically loading it, then using that time machine implementation to go back in time one second before the call
< 1568487897 489022 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : in a non-eso world, I think sleep(-1) should do the same as sleep(0), return very soon => IIRC often -1 means “no limit” in that case
< 1568487903 353476 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I suppose as long as you're reasonable about representing the function...
< 1568487926 835287 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write sleep infinity then perhaps it should call pause()
< 1568487936 31246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that's for the c function that takes an unsigned int
< 1568487938 499980 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah, that could be a loophole
< 1568487944 184951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: this one is a python function, which takes a python int
< 1568487949 614785 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: You could represent the computable functions using some Gödel numbering :P
< 1568487952 326946 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's clear that the -1 isn't just a very large integer
< 1568487968 528212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to sleep infinitely with the python interface, you can just write sleep(1<<31)
< 1568487977 323563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1568487979 849381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not good enough
< 1568487983 883624 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sleep(1<<62)
< 1568488000 113349 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1<<31 is only a few decades
< 1568488064 23939 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568488066 237025 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hm in a hypothetical case Python ints would be encoded in p’s complement, -1 ≡ …11111 > any finite positive value = practically infinite
< 1568488083 219060 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though then any negative value would behave the same)
< 1568488115 89725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbounded p’s complement*
< 1568488121 876819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: but time.sleep doesn't take an integer, it takes a floating point value for sub-second precision, that's documented clearly
< 1568488137 300591 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's uncommon for -1 to mean "no limit" for C functions that take an int as well. Although usually there's some other termination condition too. Like with `poll(struct pollfd *fds, nfds_t nfds, int timeout)`, where -1 (or any other negative value) means there's no timeout.
< 1568488141 863676 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you win :P
< 1568488145 943916 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568488152 57545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :JavaScript integers are unbounded two's complement; this affects how bitwise operation are work
< 1568488164 397257 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-003-156-045.178.003.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568488169 146992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` python3 -c'import time as t;print([(t.sleep(0.5),t.time()) for k in range(5)])'
< 1568488172 775657 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[(None, 1568488170.3078678), (None, 1568488170.8085804), (None, 1568488171.3093328), (None, 1568488171.8100646), (None, 1568488172.310767)]
< 1568488186 261802 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> -8 .|. 2
< 1568488188 215496 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -6
< 1568488191 844927 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sure, and so are python integers (except in ancient python) and GMP integers
< 1568488194 853516 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1568488199 751419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe GMP integers are different, I can't recall
< 1568488225 428048 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think GMP integers might be sign-and-magnitude.
< 1568488232 320528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's the representation
< 1568488240 675081 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: You could represent the computable functions using some Gödel numbering :P => ah I have just read the second one finally. You clearly win too. Or sin
< 1568488241 348469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do the GMP bitwise functions affect them?
< 1568488268 506899 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.computer-go.info/ "These functions behave as if twos complement arithmetic were used (although sign-magnitude is the actual implementation). The least significant bit is number 0. "
< 1568488276 511443 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1568488290 423095 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(JavaScript did not even have an integer type until somewhat recently, though)
< 1568488303 855006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gmplib.org/manual/Integer-Logic-and-Bit-Fiddling.html
< 1568488307 761933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the link
< 1568488321 616096 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I meant unbounded not in that sense, I wanted something p-adic maybe. For −1’s representation to be unbounded itself
< 1568488349 864320 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why can't software respect the X11 selection ownership protocol these days...)
< 1568488381 237217 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like languages that represent true and false as -1 and 0, respectively.
< 1568488385 147205 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forth true .
< 1568488385 692077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Java software is terrible at this.)
< 1568488385 966474 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-1
< 1568488394 407517 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can use bitwise operations with floating numbers, but then it converts them to 32-bit integers, and then converts it back to a floating point afterward. Optimizations may avoid having to perform the conversion every time, though.)
< 1568488418 772963 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzzie: Yes, Forth, and also BASIC, does.
< 1568488449 927676 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> complement 0
< 1568488452 349832 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1
< 1568488565 548009 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope they add a popcount function into JavaScript; implementing it using JavaScript code would be inefficient.
< 1568488569 336263 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> iterate complement 0
< 1568488571 500268 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,0,-1,...
< 1568488722 44328 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, and very often -1 for true is more convenient than 1 for true. ideally if you go for optimizations, you can choose between those representations, and of different sizes too
< 1568488767 977832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is true though that representing true with 1 also makes sense, and it wasn't even C that started that, APL already depends on representing true by 1
< 1568488770 289703 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m glad true integers were added to JS, I hadn’t heard about that earlier. Maybe some day I’ll write something in a future JS
< 1568488846 910758 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: is it connected with use of Iverson brackets?
< 1568488862 621134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes
< 1568488881 462967 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then they aren’t needed?
< 1568488887 182792 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, often the hybrid solution is the best:
< 1568488906 42601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :treat true as if it had the value 1 semantically when you use it as a number, but represent it as -1
< 1568488920 620750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again, that's not always the best either
< 1568488941 886142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily it's not that hard to convert between different representations 
< 1568489089 232218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the best depends both on how you're generating the integers, what you're doing with them, and even the cpu instruction set extensions
< 1568489136 892725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let { true = -1; x `and` y = negate ((negate x) * (negate y)) } in true `and` true
< 1568489139 64042 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : -1
< 1568489464 124990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm is there a module to convert an unbounded integer to Knuth’s myriad-myllion system (or another I don’t know of))
< 1568489508 381144 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though practical considerations make some complexity unnecessary)
< 1568489518 740846 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what "Knuth's myriad-myllion system" is. is that when you compute everything modulo various primes?
< 1568489607 953266 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it’s a textual representation suitable for unbounded integers, as traditional ones can’t handle values that are too big
< 1568489647 892112 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568489651 896681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't heared of that
< 1568489754 60916 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :first it declares its own myriad = 1e4, myllion = 1e8 and something for 1e16, 1e32 and so on for some time, and then it allows arbitrarily long names but I always forget in which manner. I’ll look up what the article was called
< 1568489774 298320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2010-09-03.1791.html as an alternate system to write large integers, but it's not for unbounded ones, it has a limit of something between 10**21 and 10**100 depending on version
< 1568489970 848270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? https://twitter.com/AlexKontorovich/status/1172715174786228224
< 1568489997 443209 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wow, is this an unpopular opinion that is actually unpopular?
< 1568490137 756579 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I didn’t found the original article but there is another: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-yllion
< 1568490187 125967 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Fortunately the Collatz conjecture has no practical implications at all. )
< 1568490249 870945 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: shocking
< 1568490313 14752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm disappointed that lea r64,r64 is encodable but just an illegal instruction.
< 1568490337 865193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, he's not wrong. There's no particular reason why a weird universal machine should not be lurking inside the Collatz sequence. We'll never know.
< 1568490404 189086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why? there are several other instructions that are invalid with a register argument
< 1568490413 578404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: wow, you're much less motivational than hilbert tdnh
< 1568490536 322302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel my power of negativity.
< 1568490541 848816 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wir müssen wissen. Wir werden wissen.
< 1568490589 638524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gödel put an end to that attitude.
< 1568490602 189484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear it was a huge blow to Hilbert.
< 1568490618 62065 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Almost typed "Dilbert" there, how's that?)
< 1568490689 467489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: This reminds me of the time my uncle Bilbert
< 1568490812 517194 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If you think about it a bit, by saying that we'll never know I'm also suggesting that no counterexample exists :)
< 1568490829 459809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure that was entirely intentional.
< 1568490853 157366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you actually?
< 1568490858 229785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not really suggesting that
< 1568490865 375691 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there could be counterexamples that are hopelessly hard to find
< 1568490868 238388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we'll never know BB(100) but I think it exists.
< 1568490871 449073 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well presumably if we can /find/ a counterexample that would resolve the question!
< 1568490901 836470 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you know, there's almost certainly a string whose SHA-512 sum is zero, but we probably won't find one soon, and for a well-designed 1024-bit checksum, we'll probably never find one
< 1568490907 157209 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that.
< 1568490908 391662 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: True. Hard to believe, but true.
< 1568490934 332914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in what sense can you "know" BB(100)? it's so large, surely you don't expect us to write down all digits
< 1568490962 317154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean, in what sense can you "know BB(100)"?
< 1568490977 626598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a more specific true-false statement about BB(100)?
< 1568490987 982439 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your example is better for that reason.
< 1568490994 66613 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh if https://www.treadwell-stanton.com/services/phaedra has any basis we'll have sha512 preimage attacks in no time ;-)
< 1568491003 947344 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think most interesting predicates about that number are similarly unknowable.
< 1568491015 341484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: Is it greater than 5? We just don't know.
< 1568491039 836976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it"?
< 1568491043 928104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :BB(100)
< 1568491048 554415 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: of course it is
< 1568491051 673654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's greater than 5, yes
< 1568491057 278012 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But is it greater than 8?
< 1568491059 291945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can give plenty of lower bounds, unimaginably large
< 1568491061 518772 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one's a real stumper.
< 1568491071 366920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you're mixing up something
< 1568491090 544031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke is that I said that predicates of this number are unknowable, and now I'm giving some knowable predicates.
< 1568491094 378054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a very good joke.
< 1568491131 473218 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number is closer to what you're saying
< 1568491145 372197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one's obviously less than BB(100)
< 1568491151 402600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(best lower bound: 13. best upper bound... too large to write down)
< 1568491154 59424 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't believe that. they'd be rich if they could break SHA-256 already. that said, I was careful and said SHA-512 deliberately.
< 1568491168 426119 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without special notation)
< 1568491181 899276 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're not talking about the number but the original problem.
< 1568491198 98855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, there's a lot that is wrong with that page :)
< 1568491217 670780 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we know that 100 is a lower bound for Collatz
< 1568491218 895530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: So that link claims "orders of magnitude faster" than brute force.
< 1568491222 639280 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: but, interestingly, the Digital Annealer Units are real technology.
< 1568491225 413222 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 13 can't be the best lower bound
< 1568491243 982850 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say 3 orders of magnitude, so 10 bits?
< 1568491257 954792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Uhm, the 13 is for that Ramsey theory problem that Graham's number is an upper bound for.
< 1568491263 93144 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. "overlapping into the quantum computing realm"
< 1568491278 959941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't believe any of the performance claims in that link.
< 1568491283 762068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sold.
< 1568491288 299242 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: blockchains, neural nets, and dozens of other trendy jargon words are also real technology, yet marketing people sell so much bullshit with them
< 1568491293 851520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also good to know that Google has a preimage attack on SHA-1.
< 1568491301 468930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah
< 1568491388 743540 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The Digital Annealer Units are used for things like TSP. As far as I understand them, they're basically accelerators for simulated annealing.
< 1568491390 780520 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what graham's number is all about, I think it's another famous hype that's abused for marketing or something
< 1568491441 358773 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I have not seen any claims for plain combinatorial search, in particular satisfiability, and I can't really see how that would work either... there's no locality to exploit at all.
< 1568491473 893354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs
< 1568491502 916723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice question for which 7 is the best known lower bound so far, and it was improved from 6 to 7 in 2008: https://mathoverflow.net/a/100449/5340
< 1568491526 295287 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I thought Google has a SHA 1 collision (shattered)... a proper preimage attack would be news to me.
< 1568491576 689601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's also the Hadwiger-Nelson problem
< 1568491600 782769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmm, how does this relate to addition chains?
< 1568491603 284606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm only saying the obviously false things your link is saying.
< 1568491607 730131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't think so
< 1568491608 392650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I found that article now, there Knuth uses parentheses “latin…yllion” to represent n ↦ 10^2^(n+2) where n is named as “…” using the same system
< 1568491612 910102 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's not even saying that. Whatever.
< 1568491631 994964 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I guess addition chains count the + signs rather than the 1s. Hrm.
< 1568491651 240484 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (and allow some additional sharing of subexpressions too... so not the same)
< 1568491652 111290 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then he discusses a series of prefix binary notations, couldn’t he make a prefix one here too)
< 1568491661 88293 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there are like ten thousand different interesting open questions in combinatorics that are easy to ask, I hear a lot about them from the guys at ELTE
< 1568491691 151598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Ah I'm looking at the wrong entry...
< 1568491795 814147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's a bit boring when you have an infinite family of problems, and are just nibbling at the low end (here: 1 point, 2 points, 3 points ... 6 points, now 7... even if you find 8 points, that still leaves 9?)
< 1568491848 74622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are a lot of them that, unlike these conjectures about eight points with pairwise rational distances or the Hadwiger-Nelson, sound like they should be easy to prove, but they really aren't
< 1568491868 40402 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, that's why I said the best lower bound is 7
< 1568491878 552348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be good to know the actual highest value
< 1568491959 464526 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Of course the picture is different if there's a known upper bound. And it becomes fascinating when the upper and lower bounds are close as for the Hadwiger-Nelson problem.
< 1568491989 740643 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568492015 159120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I wanted to see what "almost all" means in that Tao paper...
< 1568492055 592597 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Almost all orbits of the Collatz map attain almost bounded values, https://arxiv.org/abs/1909.03562)
< 1568492443 300694 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568492501 972585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long has it been the olisters got the five-week Sphinx virus?
< 1568492832 277128 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I think there's still plenty of room in "almost all" for a universal machine to hide in.
< 1568492861 720232 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the complement thereof, of course.
< 1568492956 858177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does "almost all" mean "all but elements of an implied ideal"?
< 1568493026 477062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it means the logarithmic density is 1.
< 1568493151 982022 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568493368 529608 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5975:f187:1cac:e1ce QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568494179 897816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not long. they still haven't reached the predicted date of Harry's death, and that Sphinx virus was within two weeks I think
< 1568494204 715061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, let me get more specific
< 1568494276 620755 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html is when Hel says everyone on the ship is infected with deadly Sphinx Pox, and they got it from Mr. Scruffy back in the desert
< 1568494299 509450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that it has an incubation period of five weeks
< 1568494440 236975 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html was still during the long day in the desert, and Haleo says that the ship will get them to past the Dwarven lands in eight days if the world is at stake, and the world is indeed at stake
< 1568494451 425603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fate of the world
< 1568494486 403951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now going to the location of the Godsmoot and attending it was probably a day of delay, and the two fights at the dwarven lands took two or three days
< 1568494502 745014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the long day was, I think, two days after they arrived to the Empire of Blood
< 1568494517 620274 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, how long they've been in the desert before they arrive to the Empire
< 1568494581 743431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's hard to tell, because they already spent an unknown amount of time in the desert between #672 and #673, 
< 1568494614 375564 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in #673 they're in a large town, though not as large as the one in the Empire of Blood, but probably still large enough for pox to spread
< 1568494657 72596 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Roy says in #673, "Here we are, gang. The town of Sandsedge, first stop on our journey."
< 1568494683 898049 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like they hadn't been to a town in the desert before that, so that's the earliest time that the cat could have gotted the virus
< 1568494707 587422 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now how much time did they spend from arriving to Sandsedge to arriving to the Empire of Blood? I've no idea
< 1568494807 421587 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline#The_Comics has some calculations
< 1568494906 348990 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, it points out to #692 which shows that they spend six days searching, but they don't spend twenty more pages
< 1568494980 235411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568494996 262086 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like they did actually pass more than half of those five weeks of incubation
< 1568495020 909023 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, people in the forums already pointed out that now they have clerics who can cure such illnesses easily, and in fact may have already cured them
< 1568495214 136972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's a good point.
< 1568495220 343392 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they may get separated again.
< 1568495338 224246 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, Mechane Crewman with Goatee in #951 seems to me like he's the resident cleric of the Mechane, and he may have already cured the mechane crew from the pox too
< 1568495355 641683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greg had time to cure them as well
< 1568495453 860321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who?
< 1568495516 486788 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cure the Mechane crew, before the dwarven lands
< 1568495518 925495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1568495521 998158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the godsmoot
< 1568495529 7347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :since Greg left the Mechane at the godsmoot
< 1568495538 890795 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the potion factory with advertising deal may have given the Mechan crew potions other than the cure potions
< 1568495551 781163 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of which may be good aginst illnesses
< 1568495869 497752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, have you ever got Sphix Pox?
< 1568495869 681390 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the answer seems pretty obviously ' no.' symbol is used as a normal atom?'.
< 1568495887 885234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: no, it's a virus
< 1568495887 950735 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if i am
< 1568496618 354985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's Greg?
< 1568496665 224028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the vampire that inhabited Durkon's body
< 1568496728 726042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.
< 1568496739 208019 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would the high priest of Hel sabotage Hel's plans?
< 1568496833 522759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: he was disguised as Durkon, so he did some things that Durkon would do to keep the disguise
< 1568496841 296285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did protect the Mechane in other ways
< 1568496954 429264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they didn't even know about the virus.
< 1568496975 650343 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think clerics have a way to detect illnesses
< 1568496983 797986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, maybe even Vaarsuvius or Elan has a way
< 1568497054 945890 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more likely that they don't know about the virus, some of them still carry it, but it will be detected and quickly cured when the symptoms become visible
< 1568497201 678965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily Remove Disease is available even in potion form (or "cleric in a can" as Tarquin calls it)
< 1568497309 553812 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568497348 242365 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568497570 67352 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it'll have some impact on the story.
< 1568497592 500822 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I already said that I'm sure it won't have an impact on the story
< 1568497595 79113 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :arf?
< 1568497599 189253 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may come back as a joke, but not as anything serious
< 1568497625 535020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, that's why I said it would.
< 1568497654 430327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm saying this mostly because in the Start of Darkness book, there's an entire story arch where a strange virus infection has a large impact on the story
< 1568497664 806735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think the Giant would repeat such an element in the later storyline
< 1568497844 447792 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, as i am a werewolf, i repeat my question. Arf?
< 1568497930 295738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that out of universe argument convinces me more than any in universe explanation
< 1568497968 642264 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? i was just being silly
< 1568498258 585659 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what did i miss?
< 1568498294 809444 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i actually say something profound by accident?
< 1568498367 845408 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: we were talking about o, a certain webcomic that's popular here
< 1568498445 140470 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568498622 236829 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :werewolf - english dictionary: arf? = huh?, grr... = oh shit..., still working on the rest.
< 1568498707 150954 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as Lykaina is greek for she-wolf, i sometimes speak canine due to my lupine nature.
< 1568498736 540393 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's what it means? so you're in the half of the channel whose nick means something?
< 1568498771 924581 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1568498785 404165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have some people whose nicks are entirely meaningless
< 1568498800 524590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least they deny any meaning
< 1568498804 111226 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't related to nick jonas?
< 1568498821 588411 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is "nick jonas"?
< 1568498829 409780 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1568498838 82638 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568498868 685429 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :2000's teen pop star
< 1568498871 279268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568498883 190233 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anyone asked me that yet
< 1568498895 589034 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :people asked about some musicians called the Jonas brothers instead
< 1568498922 290747 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :nick jonas was the front of the jonas brothers
< 1568498927 586423 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568498933 156409 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that makes more sense then
< 1568498967 861106 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's like a thousand different people out there who use the nick "jonas", and more who use the nick "Jonas"
< 1568498986 170530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder, because it's also a very popular real name, both as a first name and as a last name
< 1568499010 756934 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I too use the nick "jonas" on some places online
< 1568499019 732721 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :last name?
< 1568499024 283617 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in at least one place I'm called "jonas" and another commenter is called "Jonas"
< 1568499197 243064 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's the Jessicas and Jennifers, and the years where there were three in every class in school
< 1568499223 310074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, girls' names are fickle, the fashion changes every few years
< 1568499232 292705 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas boys' names are much more stable
< 1568499259 869593 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sara's been popular for a while.
< 1568499292 829541 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bence has been the single most popular boys' name for newborns in Hungary for two decades, and it was at least somewhat popular already more than a century ago
< 1568499347 141999 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also made up some Magic: the Gathering cards and wrote it on a paper, including:  Night Wolf {3G(G/B)} Creature - Wolf (2/2) ;; First strike ;; Bands with other creatures named Night Wolf ;; Menace   although maybe some thing should be altered a bit, I am not sure
< 1568499376 931864 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the years after twilight came out, Isabella was popular
< 1568499420 243253 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make up a name different from someone else's name, so that it is not confuse with other people with the same name.
< 1568499444 190547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, "b_jonas" is pretty unique, which is lucky given how short it is
< 1568499455 311923 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that is good, then.
< 1568499514 828233 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "lob_jonas" is even more unique
< 1568499553 47314 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i snatched SchrodingersCat in 2005 when i first used freenode.
< 1568499578 74003 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hated being asked if i was living or dead
< 1568499592 316802 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so that is why your hostname cloak says schrodingerscat
< 1568499602 76971 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was someone else then.
< 1568499605 726914 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568499697 288392 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i used SchrodingersCat when Sgeo first showed me this channel when i was in college.
< 1568499727 517751 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, different person
> 1568499736 739060 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B automaton14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66165 5* 03A 5* (+158) 10Created page with "[[B automaton]] is a [[Bully automaton]] designed with problem-solving usefulness in mind. [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
< 1568499762 636771 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this channel is old. we have logs going back to 2002
< 1568499785 899235 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's around when freenode formed, right?
< 1568499795 920165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue
< 1568499848 719952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I started using irc in 2005 or so
< 1568499866 368478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I started participating in internet communities in 2003
< 1568499870 961024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc came a bit later
< 1568499890 897494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came on it first for computer help, like many people do, then eventually got stuck because of communities
< 1568499906 289431 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode the most, but I've connected to like a dozen different irc networks at different times
< 1568499914 447364 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 2008, when i started activly using irc, i chatted like a noob.
< 1568499931 128152 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause i was one then
< 1568499952 327585 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me a few years to learn how to chat properly
< 1568500006 981975 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I even founded three successful channels: #cbstream was active from 2006 to 2017, with some breaks; #jsoftware was active from probably 2009 and still lives; 
< 1568500046 964600 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ##Droidikar was an event-related one-time thing that was active for like four days
< 1568500069 952770 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sometimes use other IRC servers too but always use the nickname and username "zzo38" on them. On ifMUD I am #20071. On Usenet/Unusenet I am "news@zzo38computer.org.invalid" (in some old articles, it didn't have ".invalid" at the end; I added it at someone else's suggestion). I am also User:Zzo38 on some wikis (including esolang wiki)
< 1568500133 166356 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the username i use depends on when i start using it
< 1568500140 745250 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1568500164 287657 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep the one when i was most embarrassing private
< 1568500170 459372 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1568500211 390347 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cool that on the internet you can start over.
< 1568500255 961854 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although if you have a static IP address then you would want to change it if you will start over.
< 1568500306 911971 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A static IP address is indeed most people's main barrier.
< 1568500328 924692 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh
< 1568500333 132208 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use IRC from a VPS
< 1568500340 997175 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568500344 328897 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I want a new IP i can just ask for one
< 1568500347 568648 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that works too
< 1568500358 658110 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if I'm on my phone wifi then it's a different IP every time
< 1568500384 23327 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a static IP address is the main barrier
< 1568500391 637215 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like all the personal information I give out
< 1568500417 539620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all my online identities are linked together with lots of links and more implicit statements, it's easy to find me from any of them
< 1568500441 748806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is deliberate, but it would be much harder to deliberately make one that's not connected to my other identities and still chat in a reasonable way 
> 1568500447 926108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66166&oldid=66165 5* 03A 5* (+576) 10
< 1568500457 602257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret identities come natural to some people, but it would be much harder for me
< 1568500470 796673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if I entered here under any other nick, you'd probably recognize me after a few lines
< 1568500492 739902 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you have a RDF file to link them together, for example. Not all such services allow linking to such a RDF profile, but I invented the way to do so with NNTP. (You can easily have multiple RDF profiles too, if you want to keep them separate)
< 1568500537 528927 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Maybe your hostname too, possibly
< 1568500543 849460 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the nickserv user cbstream has a nickserv property set to connect it to me, you can see it with `NICKSERV INFO cbstream` with the current software I think
< 1568500574 902692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hostname is easier to mask by using a proxy that you don't recognize
< 1568500596 180998 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if you deliberately do that, then of course it will be easier to mask
< 1568500598 530416 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, you have to do `NICKSERV TAXONOMY cbstream` still
< 1568500627 255345 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that as taxidermy
< 1568500627 405232 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also abbreviate the command "NICKSERV" as "NS"
< 1568500642 901092 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and got really confused
< 1568500642 938813 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?
< 1568500644 66268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try
< 1568500656 594303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you're right
> 1568500763 101467 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B automaton14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66167&oldid=66166 5* 03A 5* (+352) 10
< 1568500807 370236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know that for some reason
< 1568500838 589408 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is A on the wiki?
< 1568500848 893545 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that code for anonymous?
< 1568500858 748638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1568500911 847039 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep seeing updates by A and wonder if they are the wiki's #1 updater
< 1568500924 188419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are, they put a lot of nonsense there
< 1568500927 920749 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568500960 352494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is annoying, but admittedly it aligns with one of the goals of the wiki, which is to attract people's useless creative output away from more dangerous places they could mess up
< 1568501055 593022 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is also why I think we should allow languages on the wiki when they aren't technically esoteric, but they're obscure enough that they don't get documented anywhere else
< 1568501083 321144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if a programming language doesn't get an en.wikipedia entry, then I think it should be on topic here
< 1568501162 894273 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I documented https://esolangs.org/wiki/SIMPLE_(preprocessor) despite that it's technically not esoteric because david originally wrote it to do some preprocessing for html or tex or something and used it a little that way
< 1568501414 897840 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My way of using RDF user profiles on NNTP is to add a "From-RDF" header, which includes the URL of the RDF file (the "file:" scheme is not allowed). You still need a "From" header too, though.)
< 1568501636 45731 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The information provided for Baba Is You is not complete, although from the information provided, and some guesses, it would seem that the example is paradox since the first line allows the second line to be interpreted as denying that it can be interpreted in this way.
< 1568501669 404265 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? Unfortunately, I don't know.
< 1568501779 693748 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One nonstandard header I have seen in Usenet messages is "X-Clacks-Overhead". I looked it up, and seems that it was intended for HTTP, although it could also be used on NNTP (as in this case), and also email, and also ifMUD (although nobody can see it unless you set yourself examinable)
< 1568501850 635208 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and perhaps also it could be set as a NickServ property on Freenode, too)
> 1568502275 10727 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66168 5* 03A 5* (+436) 10Created page with "[[Trate]] is a tool for bitwise-translating the input. == Instructions == Nx,y Negates the position on (x,y), also affecting the nearby cells to negate. If on the edge, cells..."
> 1568502286 712108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Trate14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66169&oldid=66168 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10
< 1568502291 689596 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :not another bug...
> 1568502585 741401 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66170&oldid=65854 5* 03A 5* (+527) 10
< 1568502694 283182 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, which one is the better pop song about a hopeless love between "I will love again" and "White flag"?
< 1568502694 391689 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i was working on a toy interpreter or two. i really want to
< 1568502707 347079 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: oh nice, tell me more. what kind of interpreter?
< 1568502821 842166 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568503087 504622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, so not only are ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 two-letter country codes sometimes reassigned to an unrelated country, but IATA two-letter airline codes are sometimes reassigned too? these standards are crazy
< 1568503260 519622 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568503993 259599 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am glad that PostScript allows integer literals in base four.
< 1568504404 559316 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? linker
< 1568504409 915746 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The linker (from German "links") is a part of a Turing machine that's responsible for moving all output data to the left of the tape before terminating.
< 1568504467 561206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how the protagonist of the Metroid series is not called Metroid, she's called Samus, and the protagonist of the Zelda series is not called Zelda, she's called Link, right?
< 1568504484 698009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, now that's made more confusing, because there's a Zelda game where Zelda is the best playable character
< 1568504587 301018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like one of the 3D games where Zelda is a huge glowing white elf princess who tells you the plot while Link is an elf child wearing a green hood and a sword and never speaks, no. it's a 2d game where Zelda is a tiny sprite 
< 1568504684 551101 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568504785 144945 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly there's also been a few Mario games where Princess Peach was a playable character
< 1568504791 939154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/was/is/
< 1568504852 49404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even apart from Smash and Mario Kart games)
< 1568504897 918910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the baby metroid a playable character in any game?
< 1568504912 867759 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the only Mario's I've played are gameboy and nintendo64
< 1568505010 798325 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: consider playing others, there are many good Mario games
< 1568505124 944638 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to play original mario
< 1568505322 983186 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568505339 867084 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568505673 84823 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-adytfhcdxephwocg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568506293 269821 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568506466 865600 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568506667 648016 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568506757 446296 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a flow operation?
< 1568506783 355951 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568506793 944591 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that if, while, switch type?
< 1568506831 183340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are usually called "control flow". I don't know what "flow operation" means.
< 1568506865 837250 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i meant
< 1568506918 995738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "control" is the important word because a lot of Haskell libraries are named "Control" something in this sense, without mentioning flow
< 1568506937 646716 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568507007 558734 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :in debugging, i found problems at the very core of the echidna language.
< 1568507032 75207 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, i've never tried breaking out of a loop before
< 1568507052 520459 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not immediately ending
< 1568507095 304986 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to be precise, the implementation of the core
< 1568507119 197410 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568507133 956770 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1568507140 350539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: ah, I never really looked at that part of the interpreter code
< 1568507160 275121 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cared more about the arithmetic stuff
< 1568507166 487651 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if/while loops
< 1568507203 956803 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, Samus got bitten by a radioactive baby metroid in the ending of Super Metroid, and since then she has super metroid powers and metroid sense and metroid DNA in his body?
< 1568507214 740347 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do they invent such a story?
< 1568507233 488533 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexx
< 1568507245 409132 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: xev's origin
< 1568507255 442395 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how
< 1568507338 287077 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, no, that's not it
< 1568507345 183344 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's spiderman
< 1568507360 100707 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about astral travel?
< 1568507367 295059 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you choose such name
< 1568507376 253596 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can code be astral?
< 1568507391 606113 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1568507398 404343 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name
< 1568507403 466663 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :for?
< 1568507406 831169 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric
< 1568507438 366954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: just look at regular expressions; they're full of stars
< 1568507440 502694 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric programming languages
< 1568507468 113075 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both gays and esoteric code is a fail :)
< 1568507474 321230 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for not been able to use own name
< 1568507503 471216 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also worth noting that "esoteric" has nothing to do with stars.
< 1568507543 751170 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric, 'from Greek esoterikos "belonging to an inner circle" (Lucian), from esotero "more within,"'
< 1568507544 748573 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not call it language nr 23 :D
< 1568507581 407955 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like stars.
< 1568507628 23245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like shooting stars? Nah, that's a lie, I don't like shooting at all.
< 1568507641 972012 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: Unicode characters can be astral if it is more than 0xFFFF
< 1568507661 70110 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :while not obviously related, how come shifting awareness outside body is tricky/ 
< 1568507685 495807 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well programming is fun also 
< 1568507689 183801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? *
< 1568507690 408711 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
< 1568507704 459979 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :star rats
< 1568507705 460493 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1568507733 611131 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about shifting awareness outside body, and I doubt anyone else on here does. I am not even sure if it is possible
< 1568507752 906318 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible
< 1568507753 826970 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My awareness is not inside my body in the first place, so it's impossible to shift it out.
< 1568507798 868040 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when u carry bottle of vodka and your are alcoholic and all shops are closed...
< 1568507810 447854 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is your awareness? D:
< 1568507826 60473 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with body we are bodyholics :)
< 1568507834 228142 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "where is your awareness" is not so clear what it is, to me
< 1568507849 896436 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bodyholics anon :)
< 1568507851 347090 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally, I'm a utilityholic.
< 1568507858 155161 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm addicted to utility. I just can't get enough.
< 1568507900 400507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Does that make you a tool...
< 1568507977 764649 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 well when you code you are a code :)
< 1568508007 707311 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that you are can be some physical object but we are not accustomed and perhaps scared of such intimate encounters 
< 1568508027 768335 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gotta go afk for a bit.
< 1568508050 688755 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to bodyholicm :)  if I am a laptop i cant be 6`1 green eyes human perhaps, i wont be able to come back :P
< 1568508135 441109 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm capable of being both of those things at once.
< 1568508210 229313 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.5
< 1568508241 130910 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf so as a laptop what do you feel when humans type on you? :)
< 1568508305 327925 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think sometimes you might be unaware
< 1568508325 474513 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the time
< 1568508341 749841 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or only partially aware
< 1568508376 383791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only fungot is constantly aware
< 1568508376 628285 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: fnord/ doc/ fnord/ dp/ 0262681374/ fnord/ fnord ( the red dot is where the final return value is a list
< 1568508377 468948 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say 100% unaware
< 1568508420 285585 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :0262681374 unlocks the gate to the gold mine
< 1568508443 206213 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :midas did try
< 1568508465 490357 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although midas myth is so fake
< 1568508480 296678 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was touching Earth while walking
< 1568508487 328796 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so entire planet would be gold :P
< 1568508508 980361 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose, nobody can ever be fully aware, because that seems to be a violation of law of physics
< 1568508523 680261 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: Yes, of course, but that is how stories are written.
< 1568508559 849177 :cocof!9f94ba19@159.148.186.25 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep and physics is a story 
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< 1568510601 549786 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that did not just work.
< 1568510613 853322 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one didn't work?
< 1568510617 785555 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no freakin' way.
< 1568510653 27355 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just implemented the common 'pick' operation..
< 1568510851 789595 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hatebin.com/jgkozrchae
< 1568510894 676559 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it allows you to reach back into the stack to "pick" out an item.
< 1568510946 872210 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e clone it.
> 1568511031 124558 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66171&oldid=66170 5* 03Ais523 5* (-527) 10Undo revision 66170 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): please stop provoking people, or you may end up blocked again
< 1568512342 905953 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :talk to you later
< 1568512402 677575 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1568515313 841253 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Subtyping Machine14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66172 5* 03Ais523 5* (+11621) 10document a language (although, this time, it wasn't me who created it)
< 1568515765 109728 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like PostScript Z-machine?
< 1568517114 550846 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do rather enjoy PostScript, haven't written anything in Z-machine assembly though.
< 1568517158 816004 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you ever write a implementation of Z-machine, though?
< 1568517178 840272 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I did so, in C, JavaScript, Glulx, and now also PostScript.)
< 1568517251 211606 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not. never had a desire to.
< 1568517481 578488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, mine are some of the only few that implement small-endian (as well as big-endian) (except the one with Glulx, which implements only big-endian Z-machine). Some implementations at least check the endianness and refuse to run small-endian story files, which is OK. But some fail to even check such thing.
< 1568517597 904279 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, one of them I wrote, includes a debugger, too.
< 1568517628 123539 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode2: What programs have you written in PostScript, then?
< 1568517631 494801 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm impressed you did it in postscript..
< 1568517653 634664 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually haven't written any usable programs, just small snippets.
< 1568517656 802288 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode NICK :imode
< 1568517667 567552 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kinda funny, I guess.
< 1568517710 890108 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. What small snippets?
< 1568517749 500063 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stuff you write when you're initially learning postscript and other concatenative languages. factorial and fibonacci and such.
< 1568517783 390057 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
< 1568517857 722505 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a JSON parser in PostScript also, and then after I posted it to comp.lang.postscript, someone else also made another JSON parser in PostScript.
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< 1568517941 520306 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat.
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< 1568517984 114826 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I just realized is that I can actually store _arrays_ in the queue in a linear format..
< 1568518015 602238 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you elaborate on that?
< 1568518052 135767 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm building a little queue-based language, i.e a language who's primary work area is a cyclical queue.
< 1568518074 144813 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to make it reasonably close to something like Forth.
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< 1568518173 920460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Once you have enough of it written, you can mention the document and then we can read
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< 1568518464 263011 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: https://repl.it/repls/WrongJauntyRectangle
< 1568518505 756803 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 169 is the actual program you're running when you hit "run".
< 1568518765 547658 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :using things like 'pick' as an "indexing" operator, along with length-prefixed sections of the queue, you could implement arrays.
> 1568519097 734303 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66173 5* 03A 5* (+274) 10Created page with "[[Deklare]] is a language where variables are initialized before they are declared. ==Example== 
 a=b=c # a, b, and c are the same value. d=e=f # d, e, and f are the same..."
> 1568519144 72730 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66174&oldid=66173 5* 03A 5* (+102) 10
> 1568519367 949458 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66175&oldid=66174 5* 03A 5* (+119) 10
> 1568519430 529167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deklare14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66176&oldid=66175 5* 03A 5* (+138) 10
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< 1568519682 650374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my latest bit of esolanging ridiculousness: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/192843
< 1568519703 69588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, a non-referral link! So convenient.
< 1568519882 917325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for me, it's a pain to edit the referral out
< 1568519914 416688 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you only need to do it once, and you save n other people the work.
< 1568519917 442079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, the SE devs don't seem to appreciate that a referral link might be viewed negatively
< 1568520022 341412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the referral link mostly impacts the person who posted it (your most popular referral links are shown on your profile)
< 1568520051 290932 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try not to click on referral links as some sort of principle.
< 1568520092 416601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
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< 1568520171 639875 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've switched from compiling my thing with gcc to tcc by default, because it's so much faster.
< 1568520180 417315 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do people put up with slow compilers?
< 1568520325 255344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on how much time the compiler saves me in a) debugging code and/or b) executing the program
< 1568520356 834513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to the time cost of the compile
< 1568520388 169572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in my case, I get really upset if the output asm is obviously suboptimal, which makes it hard to use any compiler atm, but I think most people aren't the same way
< 1568520412 129279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean -O0 compilation, of course.
< 1568520467 210621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you compile your program many times and run it briefly, you should count the total time spent on optimizing against the time saved by generating better code.
< 1568520509 450409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need quite a lot of optimization to offset 500ms extra of compilation time.
< 1568520706 558692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this depends on what sort of programs you run?
< 1568520730 162578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically if I'm using a compiled language, I expect the program to run for several minutes
< 1568520747 866438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I'd have written it in a different language
< 1568520799 721362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or it might be a library, but in that case I'm going to be running tests on it, and my best use of time wrt testing is normally to write an exhaustive test or a fuzzer, both of which benefit hugely from speed)
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> 1568525145 157051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category:Deque-based14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66177&oldid=14068 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
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> 1568525423 165963 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66178&oldid=66069 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+348) 10/* This language should be one of deque languages */ new section
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> 1568527666 761403 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Yqloss 5*  10New user account
< 1568530815 943746 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :really getting used to working in a queue-based language. with some primitive operations, it's as natural as working in a stack-based language.
< 1568530909 262748 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the added benefit that "impure" operations like `pick` and `roll` can be implemented in the language itself. still trying to figure out how to do things like swapping.
< 1568531100 80500 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'swap' is unique in that it changes the order of the first two queue elements... hm.
< 1568531146 163230 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing that only with `dup`, `roll`, `last` and `drop` is my goal.
< 1568531255 895695 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, is this related to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Call_Queue ?
< 1568531262 808705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted a language with a call queue once.
< 1568531264 363873 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, my own language.
< 1568531270 466974 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no call queue, but a data queue.
< 1568531308 559686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa
< 1568531318 39524 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I never thought about the fact that Forth has a separate call stack.
< 1568531321 681263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it's obvious.
< 1568531336 96425 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, only reason it's TC.
< 1568531350 13161 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that and the fact that it has access to main memory. but strip that away, that's the only way.
< 1568531359 626309 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/PoorUnevenDeskscan
< 1568531373 335061 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 163 onward.
< 1568531425 252316 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter has a few bugs (conditional, mainly, because I'm too lazy to implement an 'if' macro.)
< 1568531652 306687 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to experiment with a call queue, though. I had something like it with Modal, but that's because it was based on term rewriting, i.e the whole program was stored in a queue and rewrote itself.
< 1568531729 352528 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine if you allow manipulation of the call queue via words (like Forth does with the return stack), you can use it as a stack.
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< 1568532193 281920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I don't think so, because forth can also pick the data stack
< 1568532270 373948 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is true. can also roll it.
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< 1568532792 853039 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: factorial and fibonacci => I prefer catalan numbers, see http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/catalan.ps
< 1568532811 72139 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't consider `pick` and `roll` to be pure, though.
< 1568532836 723488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it even does the calculations in postscript
< 1568532849 698350 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, neat
< 1568532855 639441 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why, that must have been inconvenient, I wouldn't have made it that way if I had to today
< 1568533062 413178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof => no, you're forgetting that Midas was a rich king, so he didn't walk anywhere, he was carried by his servants in a hand-lifted palanquin, and had carpets everywhere, presumably even in the toilet
< 1568533195 86307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, even if coding in postscript is stupid, the lesson that it shows of how handshakes correspond to triangulations, is a useful one
< 1568533207 624353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a nontrivial bijection
< 1568533226 240726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-17.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's worth to try to prove it without looking at the code, by looking at the output only
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> 1568535031 487788 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66179&oldid=66153 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+254) 10/* Any features to insert mathematical formulas like TeX style? */ new section
< 1568535299 847121 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568535754 566623 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07()14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66180&oldid=44645 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+235) 10added some descriptions, though not done yet
< 1568537823 45142 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568538659 552646 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568546950 975737 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568550096 951161 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hmupgrrlqafnaqgh JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568550295 222391 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66181&oldid=66178 5* 03A 5* (+111) 10/* This language should be one of deque languages */
> 1568550310 44795 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Pxem14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66182&oldid=66181 5* 03A 5* (+151) 10
< 1568550620 519504 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1568553641 890902 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568553670 530209 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh...bugs are so annoying
< 1568554705 663195 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568555425 961937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568556411 841457 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568557704 542773 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568558465 117602 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568558973 451751 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!
< 1568559024 635590 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold on...how long have i been debugging?
< 1568559570 56735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: do you have an updated version of the formatted docs?
< 1568559587 546679 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why does echidna have so many instructions now? 
< 1568559816 612236 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568559977 480190 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: 1) About to make it. 2) Everything not under "S" is added to avoid bugs.
< 1568560052 517203 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :3) i gotta make sure of something...
< 1568560115 132725 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :good.
< 1568560151 808461 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna make the formatted docs for 0.11a0 in a moment
< 1568560279 676589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: this is strange, haven't you changed how addressing modes work so that you write `@0000` to either read from the first word of memory or write to it? the instruction docs seem to suggest it's still the older way, where you say `@0000` to read from the first word and `=0000` to write into it
< 1568560419 850088 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 10a2?
< 1568560436 872920 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so the previous M operation is gone
< 1568560456 986381 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try to fix it in the 11a0 doc
< 1568560469 152363 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need all these many-argument bitwise thingies? can't you just have four simple ones that take two input arguments and one output like the rest of the arithmetic does?
< 1568560501 697358 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun
< 1568560624 56305 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody else does it, but maybe someone should
< 1568560714 315352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :erk, these control instructions are getting more complicated
< 1568560720 431557 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked while they were simple
< 1568560730 800119 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568560803 807281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially given that the language doesn't seem to have any easy way to avoid the if-block statements
< 1568560809 769244 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568560833 24858 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean?
< 1568560860 858148 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should i add next time around?
< 1568560867 101372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, you now  have 32-bit arithmetic builtins? but they work in a somewhat strange way
< 1568560894 303809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you really need them to take separate addresses for the low and high bytes, as opposed to always reading from two adjacent addresses?
< 1568560946 521057 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no 32-bit move... interesting
< 1568561042 155389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor any signed compare or 32-bit compare, so you'll use three or four comparisons for that, fun
< 1568561061 363986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't even use the bitwise instructions to help anymore, because they're so long
< 1568561089 100357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can still use subtract, then it only takes two subtractions and one compare to do a 16-bit signed comparison
< 1568561153 720298 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can always recode afteer i'm done with the documentation
< 1568561657 364702 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i no longer need to rely on L and M, but I like them. I plan on making AND, OR, XOR, and NOT instructions for both 16-bit and 32-bit in the next version. I'll also take your advice into consideration.
< 1568561838 988347 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568561990 607840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568562011 162355 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd recommend AND, OR, XOR, ANDC instead
< 1568562027 209348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the traditional AND, OR, XOR, NOT also works
< 1568562062 692844 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's andc?
< 1568562085 918570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: AND with the right input argument complemented
< 1568562090 430692 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :notted
< 1568562101 979952 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568562125 382758 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1568562136 382620 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know that one
< 1568562146 221339 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568562239 549031 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568562984 44281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: it would have been easy if you just kept the previous version of M (or was it L?) that takes only one extra argument and that one can only be one of 16 possibilities
< 1568563006 498768 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just think of that as 16 instructions with a two-character opcode in the source code
< 1568563048 615948 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568563132 720984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe not, because that would give too many instructions total, but you could fix that by restricting the addressing modes in all instructions in general
< 1568563253 896066 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do it the opposite way: add post-increment and pre-decrement addressing modes, allow all 100 combinations to each arithmetic and bitwise instruction :-)
< 1568563960 969266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what is your favorite flavor of ice cream, and what is your favourite flavour of ice cream?
< 1568563961 99539 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: postgresql for database.
< 1568563968 653155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a bad favorite, yes
< 1568564204 434907 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the end goal behind echidna?
< 1568564286 600168 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create a programmable console-based language
< 1568564294 493960 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean...
< 1568564313 867345 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :a console-based language i can program in
< 1568564352 347456 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun
< 1568564361 908549 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I think it's for learning or something
< 1568564470 451628 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"console-based language"?
< 1568564538 140098 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i don't want a gui
< 1568564880 771465 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a0.pdf
< 1568564896 349352 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568565023 201101 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568565115 8616 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks
< 1568565123 594756 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, now you changed the comparison conditionals?
< 1568565139 88522 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had to
< 1568565158 7109 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were bugs with the original system
< 1568565221 382614 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568565228 578298 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568565739 315303 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have one more change planned for that. I want to be able to call subs indirectly
< 1568565866 96921 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the language looks a lot different than it used to
< 1568566066 96259 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you were saying something about possibly having too many instructions?
< 1568566078 589755 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand
< 1568566113 150729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I'd still recommend you to find all subroutine starts once, when loading the program, make a table of their names and addresses in source code, ideally sort it too, 
< 1568566147 70982 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make the subroutine calls just look up sub names there, rather than reading the whole source
< 1568566172 743534 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree, just not sure how to do that
< 1568566216 215807 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: first do it without the sorting
< 1568566226 677734 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :still
< 1568566246 174199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that helps because there are much fewer subs than source code characters
< 1568566324 812255 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :read through the source code, find all the sub heading statements, as you find them, put them in successive entries of a table that stores the name of the sub and its offset in the source code array
< 1568566413 983853 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does this benefit?
< 1568566425 207026 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a subroutine call, read through the names in that table until you find a matching name,
< 1568566442 896502 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then go to the offset in the source code given in that table
< 1568566479 362560 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you're only reading through a smaller table rather than the source code which has lots of instructions that aren't sub headings
< 1568566585 987734 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a good idea to have the name of the sub, when called, be in memory as a possible option, as in indirectly?
< 1568566645 172119 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568566650 789537 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh...the table would have to be 128 KiB for that to work...
< 1568566666 565997 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to 512 bytes
< 1568566729 543772 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568566745 182705 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what do you recommend?
< 1568567030 980671 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 256 subs too few?
< 1568567100 630259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, too few
< 1568567186 807513 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :65536?
< 1568567504 503266 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna have to move some letters around again
< 1568567985 385452 :hermez!~hermes30@31.221.147.202 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568570686 495327 :hermez!~hermes30@31.221.147.202 QUIT :
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< 1568572263 772494 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprised that there's very little literature on queue machines vs. stack machines.
< 1568572304 64997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: well there are tag systems :)
< 1568572334 394596 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :queues are awkward, except when used as pipes between various stages of a process.
< 1568572344 211405 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, yeah, but I mean actual, y'know, processors.
< 1568572353 544136 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find them pretty natural actually. it's weird.
< 1568572429 49303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Oh have you found the Mill architecture? Its "belt" is a sort of queue.
< 1568572459 545907 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568572460 618085 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of it, isn't that the one with the rolling register file?
< 1568572480 844702 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e a few spots down from the head of the queue are directly addressible?
< 1568572527 15483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Disclaimer: I do not know much about that architecture; I'm not convinced it's practical; and I have no clue whether they will ever produce real hardware. I'm really rather skeptical about it.)
< 1568572539 336450 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I'd think the whole (finite) queue is addressable.
< 1568572546 892522 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was my gist as well when I saw it... also, ech.
< 1568572596 969696 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The belt is a cute idea. But one cute idea doesn't make a processor. :)
< 1568572655 118752 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some literature on using queue machines to evaluate expressions in parallel via partitioning the dependency graph between expressions. it looks like a lot of the literature around queue machines is locked up in datalow architectures.
< 1568572658 695584 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Mill has a whole bunch of cute ideas!
< 1568572660 689852 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Real CPUs probably end up doing something similar... via register renaming.)
< 1568572669 237136 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there are register windows and stuff.
< 1568572675 748179 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never really see that though.
< 1568572719 814495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp datalow
< 1568572722 36654 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568572735 118952 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, dataflow. missed an f.
< 1568572775 931769 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Yeah, but that didn't stop me from wondering what a datalow could be... I mean, given the channel and all.
< 1568572793 323087 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha, good point.
< 1568573073 699682 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: if you're curious, https://repl.it/repls/SparklingHealthyArraylist
< 1568573077 48005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There's a huge hole in my knowledge about modern processors when it comes to assessing the viability of that Mill architecture... namely, I don't know how much of the parallelism that superscalar CPUs discover dynamically can actually be determined statically.
< 1568573098 184411 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a queue-based Forth-like.
< 1568573114 438694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yes, I'd also like to know the answer to that question.
< 1568573152 778996 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that 'pick' actually works, by the by. `5 range 3 $ pick` yields you `4 1 2 3 4 5 0`
< 1568573180 729523 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably eliminate `roll`, too.
< 1568573230 493272 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think they had a claimed number which was pretty high and maybe cited some paper for it?
< 1568573236 445634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But who actually knows.
< 1568573317 223929 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a bug in `range` (and subsequently, `factorial-recursive`) that causes it to clobber the queue when generating the range and then performing the multiplications.
< 1568573334 365496 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it with a bare queue and it's fine, but do it with some work already done and it breaks. I was lazy.
< 1568573364 571698 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: sub table works
< 1568573515 897091 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm rather skeptical mainly because I imagine that it involves predicting the level of the memory hierarchy that data resides in. that may work for some inner loops... but oftentimes it will just not be possible.
< 1568573534 875957 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :indirect sub calls should work, though i haven't tested them
< 1568573569 661511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: that's not really what I said, but sure, if you want a dense array indexed by name, you can do that, it just gets uglier to write programs because you can't give more descriptive names to the subs
< 1568573582 338299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe they (the Mill people) expect that some prefetching instructions will work for that?
< 1568573604 848642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: have you at least made sure that it gives some sort of error if you try to call a nonexistant sub?
< 1568573623 337028 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :starts at the beginning
< 1568573651 755910 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll add one
< 1568574042 963488 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i change the bitwise to just ADD, ADDC, OR, XOR?
< 1568574123 245472 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: that's what I suggest, but it's your choice really, you're the one who's going to use this language
< 1568574258 147145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was looking for a reference but all the information is in multi-hour videos so it's hopeless.
< 1568575047 641525 :adu!~ajr@pool-173-73-86-191.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1568576056 899792 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think they should write a text rather than trying to make most stuff as videos instead.
< 1568576091 684870 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :done
< 1568576114 795213 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're gonna love the new M? command
< 1568576168 978108 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's sarcasm
< 1568577086 84925 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I agree.
< 1568578790 387842 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1.pdf
< 1568579165 202727 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap
< 1568579181 364223 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i messed something up
< 1568579852 743112 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568579854 866561 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1a.pdf
< 1568579892 236577 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone hacked EOS 
< 1568579898 302547 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gained 110,000 usd :)
< 1568579923 104640 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cointelegraph.com/news/hacker-spends-1k-to-win-over-110k-in-eos-betting-game-using-rex
< 1568579977 223442 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568580308 731984 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568580421 3392 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1a.pdf fixed
< 1568580560 957211 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568581174 652379 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hmupgrrlqafnaqgh QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568581898 695115 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Quit: Hugs~ <3
< 1568583909 980507 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568585343 780811 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi lymia
< 1568586022 173548 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so quiet...
< 1568586031 144631 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568586040 729369 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is life good
< 1568586041 290092 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kmc
< 1568586058 605546 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm depressed
< 1568586077 281263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry
< 1568586080 829609 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm feeling down as well
< 1568586082 815084 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION offers hugs
< 1568586122 73353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :higan
< 1568586143 65145 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568586191 770265 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone want to look at the hopefully fixed version of Echidna? i'm not in the mood to make changes right now
< 1568586297 699772 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what defines an esoteric language?
< 1568586314 563871 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1568586317 399454 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its simple
< 1568586330 590209 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric is a veil
< 1568586351 761090 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1568586353 290446 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do u need it?
< 1568586380 568844 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a bunch of symbols
< 1568586397 577428 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic 
< 1568586531 608273 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a language?
< 1568586565 767317 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :native tongue
< 1568586641 698266 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I'd say it's a language whose primary design goal is to be fun, interesting, weird, and/or frustrating, rather than anything "practical"
< 1568586658 697181 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I would exclude "serious" research languages even though "interesting" is arguably the goal there
< 1568586678 122105 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit hard to say
< 1568586682 791467 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is my Qoppa an esolang
< 1568586696 944656 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :'twas made as a demonstration of how tiny you can make a scheme-like language using fexprs
< 1568586720 918560 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no special forms, only 3 eval cases, only a handful of built-ins)
< 1568586727 451955 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it got cited in a couple of papers
< 1568586733 177196 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1568586739 652167 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's kind of based on someone's PhD thesis
< 1568586807 188497 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I sometimes say that C++ (and especially C++ template metaprogramming) is an esolang because it has that same bizarre mind-twisting nature, but by accident
< 1568586832 774757 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in exploit programming you frequently encounter "found esolangs" as well
< 1568586841 547364 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as alphanumeric-only x86 code
< 1568586884 997169 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Echidna is just for fun and to releive boredom. I tend not to care about consistancy between pushes to the repo.
< 1568586900 780612 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or programs stitched together from an arbitrary collection of ROP gadgets
< 1568586919 921529 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, cool
< 1568586969 656188 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might use what i learn from making it to make something more usable
< 1568586981 750567 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :and consistant
< 1568587015 717054 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568587116 238889 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got annoyed with only having 20 ops, so i made subops.
< 1568587125 329638 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(G-Z)
< 1568587168 458954 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the found esolangs are sometimes called "weird machines" in infosec
< 1568587183 480713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kmc
< 1568587184 781580 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013.
< 1568587192 122 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ this wisdom entry is somewhat underwhelming
< 1568587193 57904 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF unwinding info could be considered another example
< 1568587253 220972 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when people design file formats to have a certain type of flexibility
< 1568587258 267367 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: or https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Subtyping_Machine as a found esolang
< 1568587271 723190 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they often don't consider whether it allows nontrivial computation
< 1568587277 509908 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :within the format parser
< 1568587349 173073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF has unwinding info?
< 1568587350 423212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I like to do obfuscated code in non-esoteric languages, to point out interesting features of those languages, like https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1008395
< 1568587390 543238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it has to have unwinding info so that you can throw and catch exceptions through multiple compilation units
< 1568587524 991122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is pretty esoteric.
< 1568587541 230076 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's why this sort of thing is easier in perl
< 1568587884 529792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is DWARF?
< 1568587990 888892 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of... http://wiki.dwarfstd.org/index.php?title=Exception_Handling#Relationship_with_DWARF
< 1568588010 894825 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's DWARF-like but not DWARF.
< 1568588016 196673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Golly.
< 1568588028 507695 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I don't use C++ this is irrelevant, right?
< 1568588081 105949 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be used by other languages?
< 1568588087 481725 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows.
< 1568588134 785425 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all algorithms should be named after the Unicode code point that looks most visually similar to their execution graph.
< 1568588219 579392 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that there might not be such a code point. Sometimes there might be one in another character set, but, there might not be a suitable character in another character set either. And, sometimes two algorithm will have a similar execution graph, and then it is same name and that is no good, either. So, I think it won't work
< 1568588310 334124 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Rust uses it
< 1568588313 340653 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably other things
< 1568588321 219858 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's even exception support for C as a GNU extension?
< 1568588326 349396 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though generally unwinding thru C code is UB
< 1568588397 932327 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, for panic!, I guess.
< 1568588462 80546 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like panic should maybe just be longjmp.
< 1568588463 997786 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568588484 169032 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Rust is all about resource cleanups, though.
< 1568588642 889350 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568588729 974606 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568589460 792879 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568589680 675631 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1a_1.pdf very minor formatting change
< 1568589834 361348 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568590069 584690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-94.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568590667 341811 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1a_2.pdf a different change
< 1568590729 112013 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope that one's correct
< 1568590768 54643 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a typo in the previous one
< 1568590883 471196 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, a thread is supposed to be able to clean up as it panics
< 1568590953 76843 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :longlongjmp
< 1568590998 131291 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :another typo
< 1568591001 729812 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed
< 1568591036 192210 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just overwrote the pdf with the new one
< 1568591103 491213 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqxrsxntviojkihj JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568591333 665586 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed the source typo
< 1568592581 45119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it's still less complicated than the situation in Windows with SEH.
< 1568592603 514331 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though to be fair SEH is more like a replacement for signal handlers, which are definitely a bunch of complexity.
< 1568593343 966632 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568594044 540089 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568594339 522588 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568596880 596918 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I rewrite TeXnicard (or maybe, can use a different name; I don't know), I might use a SQLite database as the card set file. Now that SQLite has window functions, maybe the ROW_NUMBER function can be used for assigning collector numbers. I also should make it workable with both RGB and CMYK. Separation colours might also be good to have, but that might be more difficult.
< 1568596916 409333 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably I would avoid to implement hyphenation, but the TFM font metrics, PK font glyphs, and the line breaking like that of TeX, would be implemented.
> 1568596957 245032 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Echidna14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66183&oldid=66075 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+21) 10formatting, +WIP
< 1568596990 879118 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568597051 717509 :JimScope!~lucia.77@152.207.146.202 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568597120 763785 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:WIP14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66184&oldid=51711 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+83) 10
> 1568597237 832475 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category:Works-in-Progress14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66185&oldid=64246 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+100) 10
< 1568597353 289012 :JimScope!~lucia.77@152.207.146.202 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1568597394 351283 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Erinius14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66186 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+232) 10/* Prompting to complete Screwtape */ new section
< 1568597472 599022 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's YamTokTpaFa?
< 1568597643 192061 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :One user in esolang wiki, I think; seem to be an alternative account for YamTokWae but they lost the password for that account, as far as I can tell.
< 1568597667 142479 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like me and lesidhetree, sorta?
< 1568597768 61956 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know.
< 1568597807 980109 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in my case, i forgot i had the lesidhetree account.
> 1568597839 297555 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Higgledy Piggledy Processor14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66187&oldid=44416 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+25) 10
< 1568597848 452564 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK
> 1568598085 822859 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Blacktime14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66188&oldid=40276 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+42) 10
> 1568598153 968509 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Logical/Interpreter14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66189&oldid=65402 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+4) 10linking
> 1568598331 618988 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Malbolge2014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66190&oldid=51693 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
> 1568598697 299657 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Treeng14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66191&oldid=45439 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10
> 1568599333 483643 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NICE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66192&oldid=30326 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+146) 10
< 1568599537 967418 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568599559 27289 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1b.pdf
< 1568599796 964118 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:1ca:86a1:17f6:f647 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568600103 28888 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone look at the pdf and see if it has enough ops?
< 1568600191 657741 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is a mistake in the description of the "Ln" command
< 1568600266 855347 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap
< 1568600297 642826 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bqxrsxntviojkihj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568600363 467313 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that wassupposed to be "NOT"
< 1568600578 990690 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed the pdf and the source
< 1568600658 541965 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like the language?
< 1568600673 947116 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know
< 1568600696 178229 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are five samples at the bottom
< 1568600752 501820 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/lykaina/echidna
< 1568600766 317312 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I saw the examples
< 1568600786 354543 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if, for some reason, you want to try it out
< 1568600963 381195 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are interested, let me know
< 1568601042 908237 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's key that no cmd name can contain numbers or the letters a-f
< 1568601059 809569 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :limits of implentation
< 1568601069 736860 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is what I thought
< 1568601145 90465 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Lg instead of La, Oq instead of Oe...
< 1568601628 356642 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and if you named the compiled file "Echdebug" (you may have to put it in your path) you get a lot of debug info on stderr.
< 1568601650 359320 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean "echdebug"
< 1568605084 183343 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed the problems in range generation.
< 1568605093 959278 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if I can do this recursively.
< 1568605516 664368 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeeeeeah boi.
< 1568605729 776180 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568606053 802558 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://repl.it/repls/AptNoisyEnvironments
< 1568607067 574047 :cocof!b9e41393@185.228.19.147 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1568608345 999148 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568608660 368227 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568612227 182025 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1568614510 870930 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568614887 573817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w
< 1568614890 124744 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:nano//nano is vi's sister. \ the five wisdoms//The first of the five wisdoms is that there is only one wisdom. \ kulør//Kulør er rett stavemåte. \ structsubural type//Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction. \ almond bread//Almond bread is a delicacy made from fractal dough.
< 1568616135 570088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Did you see http://slbkbs.org/tmp/2019-08-21-test-cases.txt ? I can't remember.
< 1568616145 393433 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's like a special kind of delimited continuations.
< 1568619380 386991 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't
< 1568619383 981798 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's ⌜{ E; { ⋯ } }⌝ ?
< 1568619484 755360 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in terms of some base semicolon behavior, I guess.
< 1568619498 492376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that blocks nest right-associatively.
< 1568619535 798636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Like in C++ when you write { A a; B b; ... }, B's constructor and destructor run inside a scope.)
< 1568620025 514554 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1568620256 977857 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ⌜@⌝ and ⌜defer⌝ uses syntactical dynamic scoping (like ⌜return⌝,⌜break⌝,⌜continue⌝ in C, ⌜!⌝ in Prolog,&c.) ?
< 1568620280 497312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They refer to the current block.
< 1568620300 965408 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The goal of @ is to convert a dynamically scoped thing to a lexically scoped thing.
< 1568620328 875183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So f() { return := @`; ... { return(5); } ... } would exit from the outer scope.
< 1568620340 15161 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you abstract out ⌜@⌝ into another operation, and call that, and get the same effect ?
< 1568620363 760281 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you can't construct/define such an operation, without using the ⌜{ ⋯ }⌝ brackets ..
< 1568620432 342007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure about @. The origin of the name is that I had a syntax to name blocks earlier (similar to goto labels).
< 1568620453 373565 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ @foo; ...exitfrom foo... } would exit from the block labeled foo, and so on.
< 1568620757 545047 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :,
< 1568620859 872873 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568620879 386011 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm also wondering whether this ⌜`⌝ (which would also, maybe, not be abstractable ?) behaves more like ⌜shift⌝ or more like ⌜control⌝ (or neither)
< 1568620921 174838 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : is something you were fiddling with ? someone else ?
< 1568620924 356057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should figure out the difference between "shift" and "forall".
< 1568620941 371911 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, now i also see there was a
< 1568620943 479223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/forall/control/ -- mixed up channels
< 1568620946 411108 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :  2019-08-24  b_jonas: hello ski :) ( actually i don't think you could like rephrase it? do you normally see?
< 1568620946 674659 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: how so? it's not improved at all: how often is it really necessary to shorten a 4-letter word to 3 letters?
< 1568620951 351332 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i forgot about
< 1568620972 449305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is a bot that generates text by randomly
< 1568620972 580703 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: psox wtf? haha where can i find gambit scheme to be
< 1568620982 162366 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(scrollback doesn't go that far back)
< 1568620994 196622 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that file was me trying to write up the operators I was trying to figure out.
< 1568621020 328446 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea. but was that message triggered by something related to something i said ? or just a random thing ?
< 1568621031 597915 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok
< 1568621039 629466 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's trained on IRC logs.
< 1568621041 821835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc
< 1568621041 901736 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
< 1568621080 98323 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should add an additional fact, before I read your links, that the context I was trying to figure this out in was a low-level language where all of these things get resolved to control flow known at compiletime, with no indirect jumps or anything like that.
< 1568621101 965606 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which makes them maybe more macro-like than delimited-continuation-like, though probably both.
< 1568621307 261456 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the ⌜{ ⋯(E)`⋯; ⋯ }  ⟿  (E)(λx ↦ { ⋯x⋯; ⋯ }⌝ rule suggests it's not like ⌜shift⌝, anyway; since in that case there'd been an extra ⌜reset⌝/⌜prompt⌝ wrapping the whole thing, in the output
< 1568621352 396907 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to recall how ⌜control⌝ differed, exactly
< 1568621507 386448 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :( ? what's that ?)
< 1568621629 193381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know.
< 1568622063 444158 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my links above are just about (selective) dynamic scoping at the syntax level. being able to introduce a construct which is only valid, lexically/syntactically, inside the scope of another construct. well, in general, one could also allow a macro (or a TH splice) to expand to such a construct, inside the scoping construct)
< 1568622087 695980 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think there may've been some nice blag about it, too, but i can't find it atm)
< 1568622211 959501 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O (  )
> 1568623387 458345 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Toi14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66193&oldid=17413 5* 03Kritixilithos 5* (-26) 10/* Useful algorithms */ Removed redundant code in addition
< 1568624252 914457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Hmm, this syntax parameter thing is interesting.
< 1568624350 835020 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568624373 111593 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's related to the other question which is kind of implicit in this thing that I've discussed before, about compiletime values.
< 1568624392 772124 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the "parameter" part is just one way to render the dynamic scope thing. which is more or less what "implicit parameters" do, too)
< 1568624413 871540 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568624487 63790 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you ever wonder about all the connections that are always joined to #esoteric but never speak, and, in particular, which one is read by your boss?
< 1568624495 96087 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a semi-first-class (first-class at compiletime) object called a "block", which is somewhere between an AST and an inline function.
< 1568624525 916908 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's not like it's hard to figure out that I'm often on this channel
< 1568624549 982285 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, boss. yes, I'm totally working
< 1568624655 751725 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf : elaborate on what "somewhere between an AST and an inline function" means ? (in particular what does "an AST" mean, and what does "an inline function" mean, in this context ?)
< 1568624696 551515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean: Macros operate on AST nodes. They're entirely syntactic things, with random name shadowing and everything. An inline function has the same semantics as a regular function, and is just compiled differently.
< 1568624748 579102 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a thing which is like a function -- can be called with parameters, has its own scope without accidental shadowing -- but is guaranteed to be inlined at compiletime, and as such can do things that a regular function can't.
< 1568624767 829184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, it can do early exit from a block (without something extremely dynamic like setjmp or continuations or exceptions).
< 1568624785 219902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hygienic macro is probably kind of close to this.
< 1568624801 985379 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(By AST I meant AST node.)
< 1568624827 945658 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also perhaps possible for you to take this semi-function thing and explicitly do some operation on it, like evaluate it with a different scope, or check what free variables it has, at compiletime.
> 1568624842 315527 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66194&oldid=62879 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-23) 10Undo revision 62879 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) I don't think it a language description page, seeing the history summary.
< 1568625088 341682 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568625150 247927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Bytemap14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66195&oldid=33278 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-40) 10+WIP
> 1568625233 748714 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mbius14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66196&oldid=45359 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+51) 10
< 1568625587 413647 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"with random name shadowing and everything" -- depends on whether you're talking about (at least, by default) hygienic macros, or not
< 1568625606 534123 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1568625640 988774 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with hygienic macros, I think inserting an AST node hygienically is a kind of different thing. But it's possible it isn't.
< 1568625675 732363 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :different thing, from what ?
< 1568625708 160187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :From this "in-between" thing I'm trying to figure out.
< 1568625755 609488 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, from your description, it sounds like you want hygienic macros, possibly ?
< 1568625782 999882 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( "Compiling without Continuations" by Luke Maurer,Paul Downen,Simon Peyton Jones in 2017 at  )
< 1568625872 734377 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :names in the definiens of a hygienic macro definition refer to what those names lexically mean at the definition site (even if those names aren't exported, but the macro is)
< 1568625916 889069 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, of course, if the name is a parameter of the macro, it'll be expanded with the AST you pass in as parameter, when calling it)
< 1568625988 51619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can think of examples of why this feels different.
< 1568625998 25599 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, with something like syntax parameters, you can still have a (by-default) hygienic macro invokation expand to something involving a `return' or `break loop_lab' or similar)
< 1568626022 527302 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignoring the whole ` thing above, say you want to define something like a loop.
< 1568626070 461449 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a for-in loop is used like "for(xs, {\x; ... })"
< 1568626124 360307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here "for" is a lot like a regular function, and {\x; ... } is a lot like a lambda. The difference is that it all must be expanded at compiletime.
< 1568626136 971250 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568626158 69984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :for can't be "nonstrict" in xs, because it takes its arguments just like a regular strict function does.
< 1568626168 799388 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Scheme, it could be `(for (x xs) ...)'
< 1568626190 106512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but that's special syntax, right? The idea is that there's no special syntax here.
< 1568626207 423172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could also write something like: { body := {\x; ... }; for(xs, body); }
< 1568626251 711924 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what you mean by "special syntax", i suppose
< 1568626266 92588 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could certainly define such a `for' macro, yourself
< 1568626301 887009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that the "(x xs)" is "parsed" by the macro.
< 1568626323 287665 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course it's still an S-expression, but the meaning of the S-expression is determined entirely by the macro.)
< 1568626400 366156 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :  (define-syntax-rule for ()
< 1568626406 862070 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :    (for (?id ?expr) ?body ...)
< 1568626411 299998 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :    (foo* ?expr (slambda (?id) ?body ...)))
< 1568626439 39246 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where `slambda' is an imagined macro abstraction thing)
< 1568626458 975619 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. I'd call that syntax.
< 1568626463 119621 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :  (let-syntax ((?body (slambda (x) blah)))
< 1568626464 6405 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :    (foo* xs ?body))
< 1568626485 442474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's effectively doing parsing. Not from characters to AST, but from S-expressions to something meaningful.
< 1568626496 486404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty different from e.g. "forM_ xs (\x -> ...)"
< 1568626520 891179 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is macro-expansion-time, not run-time
< 1568626535 359689 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean that the "(x xs)" is "parsed" by the macro.
< 1568626536 120288 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568626551 25258 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pattern-matching)
< 1568626641 754503 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Stupid question maybe: what's to stop "for" actually being (instead of just "a lot like") a function, and {\x...} from actually being a lambda, and this being a compile-time optimization akin to constant folding?
< 1568626643 986541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but I want a thing that happens at compiletime, but doesn't do parsing.
< 1568626677 193192 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you can identify how it is different from that, something might become more obvious
< 1568626683 97727 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The name of the optimization is inlining in this case. It's a very common one. :-)
< 1568626708 293484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence "inline function".
< 1568626713 643820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing is that it might be permitted to do things that regular functions can't.
< 1568626763 915251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, maybe "..." contains a "return" statement. If you did that with general functions, you'd need something complicated like continuations or exceptions.
< 1568626779 132070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas with this "guaranteed-to-be-inlined" thing, implementing it is very simple.
< 1568626819 916409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might also have other compiletime-only value. For example, maybe early-exit labels are a first-class thing that you can pass as an argument to these "always-inlined functions". You don't want to pass those as an argument to real functions.
< 1568626849 428862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you can evaluate a block but with a different scope. For example, "import(module, { ... })"
> 1568626986 732969 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Symbolic Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66197&oldid=61331 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+31) 10
< 1568627054 920031 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but doesn't do parsing" -- including parsing in the above macro pattern-matching sense ?
> 1568627084 938141 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Symbolic Python14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66198&oldid=66197 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-1) 10/* Example Implementation */
< 1568627087 623676 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is taking multiple parameters to a macro (or whatever you want to think of this thing as) "pattern-matching" ?)
< 1568627133 384310 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, if you want to guarantee it's happening at compile-time, then it's not an optimization anymore)
< 1568627146 209102 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, idk. There are language semantics, and then there are compiler optimizations. I find tackling one or the other is easier than tackling both at once.
< 1568627178 72838 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and what you were saying there is, also, i think, why i was reminded of "Compiling without Continuations")
< 1568627225 468759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a compiler optimization for the reason ski said.
< 1568627246 588817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: The reason I'm calling it "parsing" is that (x xs) isn't a meaningful expression by itself, but only in the context of being the first "argument" to the macro.
< 1568627281 4102 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568627296 274548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also x is an identifier, which makes "for" a binder on top of everything else. If it was more function-like, something like for(xs, x, { ... }) would be an error because x is unbound.
< 1568627300 379415 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, perhaps it can be a meaningful phrase, on its own ?
< 1568627302 493154 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything you can do at compiletime, you can also do at runtime, so, ok, if you don't want to use the word "optimization", that's cool.
< 1568627316 383064 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming we know which "syntactic type" to assign to it)
< 1568627318 476465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That seems like a bad approach to language design?
< 1568627332 169206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do type checking at runtime but I want to do it at compiletime.
< 1568627342 829037 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I said "can", not "should"
< 1568627359 137746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other reason I don't want to call it an optimization is that it's mandatory.
< 1568627390 847368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a language specification requires tail-recursive functions to use constant space, that's not an optimization.
< 1568627414 196972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think tail call optimization isn't a good optimization, either. It should either be required or not happen at all.)
< 1568627429 100510 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find, pretend I said "technique" instead of "optimizaion"
< 1568627434 632630 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, sure.
< 1568627446 845409 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point is, the semantics of a language doesn't usually prescribe this
< 1568627454 92636 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing is that I want something simple, and supporting these things at runtime is many times more complicated than supporting them at compiletime.
< 1568627459 91444 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program has the same meaning whether you expand these things early or later
< 1568627473 727267 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in theory for a low-level language that doesn't even have closures.
< 1568627475 260952 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568627492 815895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it'll have closures later. But it certainly won't have arbitrary continuations.
> 1568627496 767324 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Triangular14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66199&oldid=53953 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
< 1568627651 825315 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Scheme prescribes "proper tail recursion" (which is a bit of a misnomer, because it doesn't have anything, per se, to do with recursion). may be implemented with TCO, may be implemented in other ways. the spec only cares about the asymptotic space complexity property of the operational semantics, allowing an unbounded number of active tail calls, in bounded space)
< 1568627688 987002 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems fine.
< 1568627712 752512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've said before that I think optimizations that change asymptotic behavior are probably a bad idea.
< 1568627726 128938 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey : well, but "One thing is that it might be permitted to do things that regular functions can't.","For example, maybe \"...\" contains a \"return\" statement. If you did that with general functions, you'd need something complicated like continuations or exceptions."
< 1568627764 286210 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568627833 180786 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 QUIT :Changing host
< 1568627833 180844 :ais523_!93bc07d5@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568627833 180857 :ais523_!93bc07d5@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Changing host
< 1568627833 180870 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568627856 507554 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it was a pain to get KiwiIRC working, but I'm here now
< 1568627880 385808 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, ais523_
< 1568627891 944849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you a Kiwi now?
< 1568627897 779950 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so?
< 1568628010 777779 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, I'm not really convinced I understand The Subtyping Machine
< 1568628020 939292 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :found esolangs are elegant in a way, but less elegant in other ways
< 1568628111 252478 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_ : cloaks don't work with Kiwi ?
< 1568628130 880501 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently not
< 1568628207 638850 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, is this the Kiwi thing on the Freenode page, or running from elsewhere ?
< 1568628251 732188 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsewhere, I can't get the one on the Freenode page to work
> 1568628316 792261 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Ais52314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66200&oldid=66179 5* 03Ais523 non-admin 5* (+379) 10/* Any features to insert mathematical formulas like TeX style? */ reply
< 1568628394 870737 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568628397 788791 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I hear KiwiIRC?
< 1568628423 57794 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you weren't in channel at the time, but maybe?
< 1568628434 970510 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to be using it too
< 1568628446 819203 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what does the "l" mean?)
< 1568628458 847891 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :new zeaLand
< 1568628482 523531 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: kiwi irc is a different web irc client. freenode runs a thing called qwebirc at http://webchat.freenode.net/ , whereas kiwiirc is a client at https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net that lets you connect to any irc network if you know the hostname of the server
< 1568628532 925904 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, webchat.freenode.net is a kiwiirc instance nowadays
< 1568628538 401376 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I couldn't get it to work
< 1568628543 618055 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why ais523_ disappeared for ages
< 1568628599 821769 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "l" was originally trying to make the esolangs.org formatter color the nick the same sort of green as it uses for "b_jonas", but apparently it's not working that way now. either I messed up something, or the coloring hash changed. hmm.
< 1568628620 161077 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait really?
< 1568628626 589234 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
> 1568628640 935552 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Policy Policy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66201 5* 03A 5* (+229) 10Created page with "[[Policy Policy]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] inspired by [[Baba Is You]] that allows modifying the rules. This is a set of rules for defining rules. Category:La..."
< 1568628643 756910 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freenode used to run qwebirc, yes, but they switched to Kiwi, recently
< 1568628756 686978 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :
< 1568628837 102772 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :("it supports ... usage of emoji" is a minus, of course)
< 1568628863 808664 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Along with this change, we will no longer apply gateway cloaks to users of our webchat, treating them the same as any other client. While channel operators will still be able to recognize them via the realname field, we strongly suggest that you carefully consider the impact on legitimate users and hope that you decide not to ban webchat users as a whole."
< 1568628907 424208 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to indicate to me that cloaks should now work, just as if you connected with a non webchat client (unlike before)
< 1568628917 232248 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: does it support usage of emoji in the same way as mibbit does, so that when I mention std::default::Default, you see the colon-D replaced by a smiley?
< 1568628930 551091 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it support usage of emoji like twitter?
< 1568628942 400167 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"does it support usage of emoji in the same way as mibbit does .." : i hope not
< 1568628952 862499 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe just "support usage of emoji" in a sane way, where it just passes emoji through unmodified when you enter them into the input bar?
< 1568628959 292746 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this computer is running Windows, so I have no easy ability to type a smiley face or whatever
< 1568628975 433863 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however kiwiirc has an onscreen keyboard with an :]  on it
< 1568628981 344189 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when i tried Discord a little, turning off all emoji stuff was the first thing i did)
< 1568628983 283305 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that render correctly for people using a different client?
< 1568628992 734550 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: which version of windows? the one that brings up an emoji popup if you press win+dot?
< 1568628996 432193 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: it renders as colon close square bracket for me
< 1568629012 678999 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, why not just send the Unicode? :-(
< 1568629031 748493 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where if you press win+dot then colon then parenthesis then it searches for smiling emoji characters from some database/
< 1568629037 400152 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks like it is just replacing sequences of ASCII characters (that was a manually typed emoticon, not an emoji)
< 1568629051 963428 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (:) 1 []
< 1568629054 242367 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1]
< 1568629063 382649 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you can turn that off in the settings menu of kiwiirc
< 1568629063 419090 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (:[]) 1
< 1568629065 657212 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1]
< 1568629076 713660 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I initially misinterpreted int-e's Haskell as an attempt to emoji
< 1568629095 18600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: There's no misinterpretation
> 1568629099 18650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Policy Policy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66202&oldid=66201 5* 03A 5* (+471) 10
< 1568629103 154055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote eat.a.comment
< 1568629103 514405 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :SamB_XP says: I once saw it eat a comment (:[{- Help! -}])
< 1568629104 787646 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it rendered literally for me
< 1568629112 92006 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I was wondering what that feature would do to more or less ordinary code
< 1568629125 397944 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to have a decent protection against false positives
< 1568629137 570226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (🐱)
< 1568629140 773168 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it'd probably struggle with emoticon-based esolangs (there's at least one of those, possibly more?)
< 1568629150 611771 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, that one did render as an emoji
< 1568629165 329259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (1 :) [] -- more delibrarate attempt
< 1568629165 933108 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no way to see what the underlying ASCII characters were
< 1568629167 93195 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :@slap lambdabot
< 1568629167 207926 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [1]
< 1568629167 421015 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decomposes lambdabot into several parts using the Banach-Tarski theorem and reassembles them to get two copies of lambdabot!
< 1568629181 730307 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (�)
< 1568629184 47 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: Variable not in scope: �
< 1568629184 165880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were no underlying ASCII characters.
< 1568629203 701370 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: try the settings icon on the top left, then unset "Show emoticons"
< 1568629203 916070 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was wondering why lambdabot didn't evaluate it :-D
< 1568629207 209567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The underlying character was U+1F431 CAT FACE
< 1568629221 136692 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@unidecode 🐱
< 1568629221 293482 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list
< 1568629225 135302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 🐱
< 1568629228 819022 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F431 CAT FACE]
< 1568629245 388156 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe a Weebl's Stuff character got into Unicode
< 1568629251 413404 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't realise there were /two/ settings menus
< 1568629253 507043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately the version of mosh-server I'm using doesn't display this correctly.
< 1568629256 858979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let 🐱 = 9 in 🐱
< 1568629258 808802 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:5: error: parse error on input ‘🐱’
< 1568629261 815832 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is also a settings menu in the top right, with the same icon)
< 1568629264 560405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's annoying because everything except mosh works fine.
< 1568629275 965849 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think emoji are operators for some reason
< 1568629279 499105 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let (🐱) = 9 in (🐱)
< 1568629280 500909 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you find the settings menu you don't normally look for another one
< 1568629281 952940 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9
< 1568629283 740512 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'a '{~?80$2 NB. I think they even fixed the html style so it doesn't collapse multiple spaces in messages
< 1568629284 336625 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas:  aaa aa a   a   aa a aa aaaaa   aa aaa   a aaaaa  aa   aa a aaaa  aa  a a  a  aa
< 1568629291 938575 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: apparently so
< 1568629303 262076 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I assume because they're not alphanumeric?
< 1568629308 979390 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yeah, I'm not saying it's a particularly good client
< 1568629311 260553 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what's everyone's favourite emojo
< 1568629315 337969 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote alphanumeric
< 1568629316 440569 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1132)  A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
< 1568629321 673396 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying it's still better than mibbit or the old qwebirc
< 1568629328 333305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is ꙮ an emojo?
< 1568629332 203567 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> generalCategory '🐱'
< 1568629333 909364 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : OtherSymbol
< 1568629341 733868 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: "emoji" is also the singular (it has a Japanese root, and Japanese doesn't inflect plurals)
< 1568629367 44859 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: yes but I like to facetiously decline words such as that as if they were Italian
< 1568629367 121887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ꙮ.ꙮ
< 1568629380 249515 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because one susho is never enough, you know?
< 1568629398 619515 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> generalCategory 'ꙮ'
< 1568629400 870533 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : OtherLetter
< 1568629405 795122 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I appreciated Taneb's usage and I might pick it up now.
< 1568629416 19189 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let ꙮ = 3 in ꙮ
< 1568629418 381352 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3
< 1568629425 520477 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we can conclude that ꙮ is not an emoji
< 1568629427 93215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though maybe I should go back to the older hyphenated form, e-moji
< 1568629437 747802 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the printed version is just called "moji".
< 1568629455 962431 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think it's cognate to "mojo"
< 1568629461 724984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: In fact it's alphanumeric, the above limerick notwithstanding.
< 1568629474 54368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote SNOWMAN
< 1568629474 968450 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1256)  MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
< 1568629482 862249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it's time for more Unicode poetry.
< 1568629504 684797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any double dactyl code points?
< 1568629605 643385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet you can write a nice poem with rhyme, metre, and meaning where every line is the name of a Unicode code point.
< 1568629631 694905 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But automated search is difficult because code point names aren't English words.
< 1568629654 265181 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O (  )
< 1568629662 17639 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, false negatives aren't a huge issue, and false positives can easily be excluded by hand if they end up in the finished poem
< 1568629667 590532 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an inaccurate syllable counter might be good enough
< 1568629693 418878 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/fis/esolangs/blob/master/esologs/format.cc#L406 this was where it was done
< 1568629703 556385 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode '😚'
< 1568629705 30973 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+0027 APOSTROPHE] [U+1F61A KISSING FACE WITH CLOSED EYES] [U+0027 APOSTROPHE]
< 1568629723 645967 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once downloaded an English pronunciation dictionary and used it to search for rhymes fitting a particular metre.
< 1568629751 302094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it wasn't rhymes that time, it was just the metre.
< 1568629779 337651 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can fit 😚 to a double dactyl meter., I think
< 1568629785 161754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying dactylic hexameter, and I wanted words that cross foot boundaries in particular ways.
< 1568629805 253186 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( Emojo bag )
< 1568629811 49021 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :KISSing face WITH closed eyes?
< 1568629819 509817 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds kind of unnatural.
< 1568629854 43132 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I was subconsciously forcing myself to say it that way
< 1568629868 90443 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I relax I say "kissing FACE with closed EYES"
< 1568629890 112979 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I recommend http://wyrdplay.org/AlanBeale/CAAPR-ref.html by Alan Beale, the maintainer of 12-dict, over worse pronunciation dictionaries like http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict
< 1568629897 834857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode ⚯
< 1568629899 488354 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+26AF UNMARRIED PARTNERSHIP SYMBOL \ UTF-8: e2 9a af  UTF-16BE: 26af  Decimal: ⚯ \ ⚯ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
< 1568629911 999399 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, no, even ignoring SYMBOL it doesn't work either.
< 1568629925 389525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: Oh, I was using cmudict.
< 1568629949 31831 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I didn't know about CAAPR until earlier this year either
< 1568629950 128587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also used cmudict for http://slbkbs.org/major/
< 1568629951 890818 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems really well done
< 1568629976 345300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which lets you search for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_major_system words.
< 1568629989 61304 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the minus side, you're screwed anyway if you're trying to work with unicode character names, since they have a lot of words that aren't common english words
< 1568630028 675732 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, they name every hangul syllable and all, and you won't get the pronunciation of those from an english pronunciation dictionary
< 1568630044 662969 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any Unicode character names that contain "words" that aren't actually a word in *any* language?
< 1568630074 614741 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, there's at least one obviously typoed english word
< 1568630101 73007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higgledy-piggledy / Down-pointing Triangle
< 1568630127 587120 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Arabic ligatures in Unicode are kind of ridiculous. I was looking at them the other day.
< 1568630131 48878 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I agree that "down-pointing triangle" is a double dactyl
< 1568630135 832060 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode down-pointing triangle
< 1568630137 141364 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+23F7 BLACK MEDIUM DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 8f b7  UTF-16BE: 23f7  Decimal: ⏷ \ ⏷ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \  \ U+25BC BLACK DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 bc  UTF-16BE: 25bc  Decimal: ▼ \ ▼ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \  \ U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 96 bd  UTF-16BE: 25bd  Decimal: ▽ \ ▽ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (
< 1568630142 97437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately it's not a code point.
< 1568630149 943714 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, but apparently it isn't a code point
< 1568630164 260935 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"down pointing" is more of an antibacchius
< 1568630193 313136 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's some liberty if a reader would naturally read it as a dactyl if they're in the groove.
< 1568630245 993901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⊎
< 1568630246 762984 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+228E MULTISET UNION]
< 1568630253 690284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higgledy piggledy / Multiset Union
< 1568630273 301906 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used ⊎ a lot in my thesis
< 1568630274 625023 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't multiset an anapest?
< 1568630295 229418 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://www.unicode.org/notes/tn27/tn27-4.html , especially near "BRAKCET"
< 1568630301 910062 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly think of it as "disjoint union" (which doesn't scan), or even "\uplus"
< 1568630335 881082 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "multiset" sounds a little unnatural as an anapest, but the stress is first and third
< 1568630337 135586 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: really? I thought people used u-with-plus-inside to mean a multiset union
< 1568630345 201678 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568630348 906165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha!
< 1568630351 609623 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in American English where it's second
< 1568630359 126590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⏘
< 1568630359 962528 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+23D8 METRICAL TETRASEME]
< 1568630367 19507 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higgledy piggledy / Metrical tetraseme
< 1568630386 426399 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the last vowel in "multi" has an entirely different pronunciation in American English and British English, I expect that extends to "multiset")
< 1568630410 249863 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, isn't "metrical" stressed second?
< 1568630423 705707 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :metRIcal?
< 1568630426 529523 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard that.
< 1568630429 785707 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I try to pronounce it stressed first, the third syllable more or less completely disappears
< 1568630433 719605 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a schwa is too long
< 1568630443 583615 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I definitely pronounce it stressed first
< 1568630450 903316 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :METric'l
< 1568630456 709929 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit it sounds more like "metricle" but it's still three syllables in my mouth.
< 1568630486 9942 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MET-tric-" and then about the softest possible "l" is what it ends up like for me
< 1568630488 976207 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that just sounds weird
< 1568630495 4227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only ⏔ worked.
< 1568630527 986078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also when I say "in my mouth" I mean in my mental model of my mouth, because I didn't actually pronounce it.
< 1568630536 925870 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"met-RIC-əl" is a lot more natural
< 1568630549 333354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode ⏝
< 1568630550 599952 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+23DD BOTTOM PARENTHESIS \ UTF-8: e2 8f 9d  UTF-16BE: 23dd  Decimal: ⏝ \ ⏝ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
< 1568630558 316873 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⏔
< 1568630559 284714 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+23D4 METRICAL LONG OVER TWO SHORTS]
< 1568630607 563475 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I find stressed second very unnatural
< 1568630622 281845 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe it's an accent difference
< 1568630628 132684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agreeneb.
< 1568630629 276194 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't stress second that much, just more than first
< 1568630635 414429 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I never met treacle I didn't like.
< 1568630652 42172 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's definitely less of a stress than "treacle"
< 1568630662 366683 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think I've ever met treacle, though. I only vaguely know it as a candyish or sugary thing.)
< 1568630675 227029 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think treacle is the same thing as molasses, if that helps
< 1568630680 58698 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, I've not had either
< 1568630693 213469 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no. #esoteric is trying to make English poetry. we're doomed.
< 1568630707 544057 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I once ate a cake for which treacle was an ingredient? not sure though
< 1568630713 4385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It helps a bit.
< 1568630719 708263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear molasses is pretty dangerous.
< 1568630758 308667 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bottom parenthesis" is surely a double dactyl, though.
< 1568630774 825691 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( "Trapped in treaps of treacle." -- some paper, i forgot which )
< 1568630782 260163 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fungot style writes poetry?
< 1568630782 397651 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: if one day somebody visits a store, and any patches you send will be dropped
< 1568630785 767894 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^styles
< 1568630786 244788 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word break is in the wrong place, but otherewise yes
< 1568630787 432311 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a triple iamb, for me?
< 1568630795 865220 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm wrong
< 1568630810 305646 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOTtom parENtheSIS for me
< 1568630828 362449 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOTtom paRENthebro
< 1568630837 586766 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the same way that other people are pronouncing it, except you stressed "SIS"
< 1568630840 944297 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's really not that stressed
< 1568630849 877981 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`icode ⨹
< 1568630850 849144 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2A39 PLUS SIGN IN TRIANGLE]
< 1568630857 214609 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's as stressed as the EN for me
< 1568630867 541443 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe more than "the", but secondary stress doesn't normally factor into this sort of poetry discussion
< 1568630892 721789 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently the original motivation of Arabic ligatures wasn't actually to be used in Arabic.
< 1568630898 685931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was to be used in Urdu?
< 1568630907 851988 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ⨹ is cheating slightly because the first meter unit is made out of three different words, and it's hard to leave two whole words unstressed like that
< 1568630964 660699 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus sign is a spondee for me?
< 1568630993 511118 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`icode ⸒
< 1568630994 355065 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2E12 HYPODIASTOLE]
< 1568630999 492386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one is even one word.
< 1568631020 488628 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this explains why I wasn't very good at the poetry sections in my Latin A-level
< 1568631039 180078 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to unirc for a bit
< 1568631078 894490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode ⸻
< 1568631080 186451 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :U+2E3B THREE-EM DASH \ UTF-8: e2 b8 bb  UTF-16BE: 2e3b  Decimal: ⸻ \ ⸻ \ Category: Pd (Punctuation, Dash) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
< 1568631083 394808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is ridiculous.
< 1568631083 616096 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, after thinking about it a bit more, ⊎ is fundamentally a multiset union operation
< 1568631093 304158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :THREE-EM dash?
< 1568631100 543023 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how wide is U+2E3B in the typical monospace character set?
< 1568631107 762585 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so many ems. I can't believe I was limiting myself to single em-dashes.
< 1568631116 902847 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My terminal displays it triple-width.
< 1568631134 257470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⸻
< 1568631135 972290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :xxx
< 1568631138 480874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, no.
< 1568631141 561067 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⸻
< 1568631142 680169 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :xxxx
< 1568631143 461322 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was working on a wcwidth implementation based on the official Unicode documentation, but that doesn't leave any situation in which a single character can be drawn wider than fullwidth (= wcwidth 2)
< 1568631149 37249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadruple-width.
< 1568631156 824625 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :⸻
< 1568631157 641451 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm
< 1568631168 620033 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it renders wider than three "m"s for me
< 1568631168 945346 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I suppose m is more appropriate there.
< 1568631171 969039 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :check oren's font maybe
< 1568631174 410546 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? font
< 1568631175 731864 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
< 1568631185 562101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⸺
< 1568631186 387823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1568631189 142891 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's single-width in oren's font
< 1568631189 440770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :⸺
< 1568631190 541923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm
< 1568631314 77943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way: If you're talking about English, is there any use to names like "dactyl", "iamb", "spondee", etc.?
< 1568631331 641642 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem like words that are bad for communicating.
< 1568631340 577696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of "iamb", I'll write xX
< 1568631347 810042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Xxx for dactyl, and so on.
< 1568631395 717882 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sounds like names of towns in Wales and Scotland
< 1568631425 681343 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i spondeeneous combustion
< 1568631425 841860 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( Upper and lower case  )
< 1568631432 953218 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPACE, COMMA, COLON, TILDE, MACRON, CARON, BREVE, OGONEK, HYPHEN, DAGGER, BULLET, PRIME, CARET, NABLA, ANGLE, UNION, RATIO, EXCESS, MODELS, TRUE, FORCES, XOR, NAND, NOR, BOWTIE, HOUSE, ARC, SECTOR, WATCH, FROWN, SMILE, SLOPE, FUSE, CLOUD, COMET, SUN, ANKH, EARTH, SATURN, URANUS, PLUTO, ARIES, TAURUS, GEMINI, CANCER, LEO, VIRGO, LIBRA, PISCES,
< 1568631433 472059 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANCHOR, SCALES, FLOWER, GEAR, COFFIN, NEUTER, CERES, PALLAS, JUNO, VESTA, CHIRON, RAIN, PICK, CHAINS, CHURCH, CASTLE, FERRY, SKIER, TENT, PENCIL, TINY, MINY, JOIN, HYGIEA, PHOLUS, NESSUS, CUPIDO, HADES, ZEUS, KRONOS, SEDNA, FOGGY, FOG, TACO, CACTUS, TULIP, ROSE, HERB, TOMATO, GRAPES, MELON, LEMON, BANANA, PEAR, PEACH, BREAD, DANGO, ODEN, SUSHI,
< 1568631433 994993 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :COOKIE, CANDY, RIBBON, CINEMA, TICKET, GUITAR, VIOLIN, RUNNER, SURFER, TROPHY, GOLFER, DESERT, BANK, HOTEL, SCHOOL, LABEL, RAT, MOUSE, OX, COW, TIGER, RABBIT, CAT, DRAGON, WHALE, SNAIL, SNAKE, HORSE, RAM, GOAT, SHEEP, MONKEY, DOG, PIG, BOAR, BUG, ANT, FISH, TURTLE, BIRD, KOALA, POODLE, EYES, EYE, EAR, NOSE, MOUTH, TONGUE, CROWN, JEANS, DRESS,
< 1568631434 454373 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :KIMONO, BIKINI, PURSE, POUCH, BOY, GIRL, MAN, WOMAN, FAMILY, BABY, GHOST, IMP, SKULL, DANCER, PILL, RING, KISS, BOMB, SEAT, DVD, LEDGER, BOOKS, SCROLL, MEMO, PAGER, CAMERA, RADIO, KEY, LOCK, BELL, FIRE, WRENCH, HAMMER, HOCHO, PISTOL, KAABA, MOSQUE, BOOK, CANDLE, HOLE, SPIDER, SCREEN, FOLDER, NOTE, PAGE, PAGES, LIPS, MOYAI, ROCKET, TRAIN, METRO,
< 1568631434 970982 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRAM, BUS, TAXI, SHIP, DOOR, TOILET, SHOWER, BATH, BED, STUPA, PAGODA, SHIELD, CANOE, SLED, SELFIE, PRINCE, SHRUG, FENCER, SPOON, RIFLE, BACON, POTATO, CARROT, EGG, PIE, MANGO, BAGEL, CRAB, TURKEY, EAGLE, DUCK, BAT, SHARK, OWL, DEER, LIZARD, SHRIMP, SQUID, T-REX, LLAMA, PARROT, BADGER, SWAN, BONE, LEG, FOOT, TOOTH, ADULT, CHILD, MAGE, FAIRY, ELF,
< 1568631435 461852 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GENIE, ZOMBIE, BRAIN, SCARF, GLOVES, COAT, SOCKS, ABACUS, BRICK, MAGNET, BROOM, BASKET, SPONGE,
< 1568631438 579932 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so according to glibc, 1 is the correct wcwidth for U+2E3B: https://tio.run/##VYzBCoJAFEX3fsVDEUdQaRlYbcRWklIKtRJ5M@aAjaFjBtF/Bf1NP2Jjrdyee85F94w4jgZlJRcM8mOchLv8EGf7INQMLrDuKYNVJylvvGozRyqaswGrop2jusGiZhPTuJBwKbggt4ZTGx4aQMfkXyBRkAfpKQkd0AMvS7fuUrd9ZfwucwkIa4isz@ttTfTaqrOS6CYF8647yho4lRVB2wGiJht/cctk3wpY@NpzHL8
< 1568631452 86330 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ these are single-word unicode character names, just write a poem from them
< 1568631457 89243 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stares blankly
< 1568631458 222785 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to work with the long names
< 1568631474 79936 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my browser renders it at 5 monospace units wide, though
< 1568631492 797886 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. time to go
< 1568631495 588637 :ais523_!93bc07d5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.147.188.7.213 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1568631544 200596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please group them into equivalence classes by rhyme.
< 1568631556 251057 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also just as many longer single-word character names, starting from AMPERSAND, including such things as DUMPLING and BLOSSOM and POPCORN
< 1568631680 334880 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/edit/tmp/single-word-character-names
< 1568631786 242465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this list of words is good for poetry.
< 1568631809 295958 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, there are too many verbs. hard to make complete sentences from them. let me try to find them.
< 1568631811 785533 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better to use some multi-word code points that contain other grammatical ingredients.
< 1568631883 932413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, new one for me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koomey%27s_law
< 1568631917 929428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is MUSHROOM missing?
< 1568631931 275239 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a poem with Unicode code points:
< 1568631943 831018 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BADGER, BALLOON, BANK, BAT, BLOSSOM, BOMB, BRICK, BUG, CHICKEN, COAT, COMPLEMENT, DESERT, 
< 1568631949 793853 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: MUSHROOM is in the longer list
< 1568631952 68408 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I tried to paste
< 1568631958 775225 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch tmp/single-word-character-names https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/single-word-character-names
< 1568631960 159161 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-16 11:05:59 URL:https://hack.esolangs.org/get/tmp/single-word-character-names [4459/4459] -> "tmp/single-word-character-names" [1]
< 1568631960 196421 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Moore's law is much more well-publicized
< 1568631978 296544 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, BADGER, MUSHROOM, MUSHROOM
< 1568632030 168055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Fancy.
< 1568632032 426841 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIVIDES (the first one that's primarily a verb), DOCUMENT, DRESS, DUCK, ENVELOPE, ESTIMATES, 
< 1568632033 460241 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and less relevant, somehow.
< 1568632128 197178 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FORCES, FROWN, FUSE, GHOST, HAMMER, HOUSE, INCREMENT (second), INTERCALATE (third), JOIN (fourth, this is getting better),
< 1568632224 128348 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :KISS (fifth), LABEL, LOCK (sixth), MAN, MAXIMIZE (seventh), MINIMIZE (eighth; though I wonder if I should have counted BLOSSOM), 
< 1568632295 553698 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbf BADGER BALLOON BANK BAT BLOSSOM and BOMB are all verbs too
< 1568632316 960681 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DIVIDES can easily be a plural noun
< 1568632324 354145 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEUTER, NOTE, OVERLAP (ninth), OVERLINE, PACKAGE, PAGE, PAGES, PARROT, 
< 1568632338 626729 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, I did list BADGER BALLOON BANK BAT BLOSSOM as the first ones that can be verbs
< 1568632387 572306 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: sorry, I wasn't paying attention
< 1568632414 944517 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote alphanumeric
< 1568632415 904472 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1132)  A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
< 1568632518 706766 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PENCIL, PICK (tenth primarily verb), PRECEDES, RING, ROSE (eleventh), SCALES, SCHOOL, SCREEN, SCROLL (12th), SEAT, SEGMENT, SHILED, SHIP, SHOWER, SHRUG (13th), SMILE (14th), SNAKE, SPACE, SPARKLE (15th), SPARKLES (16th), 
< 1568632632 669611 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: I was very confused by this CAAPR file.
< 1568632636 377729 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :STATION, SUCCEEDS (17th), TICKET, TONGUE, TRAIN, TRUMPET, WATCH (18th).
< 1568632647 92100 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: read its documentation, it becomes more clear from that
< 1568632648 982307 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it turns out my editor was misrendering it.
< 1568632659 126722 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So most characters weren't showing up.
< 1568632664 17029 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's iso-8859-1 encoded
< 1568632685 936732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I just figured that out.
< 1568632708 93897 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's like fifty verbs usable, and if I count BLOSSOM as primarily a verb, then 19 of them are primarily a verb
< 1568632725 589151 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are probably a few more that I just don't know
< 1568632788 854310 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568632818 2404 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Moore's law say that the number of emojis double every two years, if you include the ones that are encoded as a combination of more than one unicode code point?
< 1568632959 732703 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: This is a notable open problem in Emoji Science, we need to find an eminent Emoji Scientist to answer it
< 1568632963 499684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp moore
< 1568632965 195063 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568633062 97272 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anybody garbage collecting the emojis that nobody ever uses?
< 1568633079 256034 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, maybe, we won't run out of unicode points for them ;)
< 1568633091 911987 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone proposed a capybara emojo, I was happy to hear.
< 1568633096 769693 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to do it myself otherwise.
< 1568633115 835797 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's currently pending review as part of a larger group of emoji.
< 1568633156 405805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: What's the benefit of this over cmudict?
< 1568633160 202607 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can at least make some of those ambiguously parsing news headlines from these. FORCES DESERT, JOIN OPPOSITION.
< 1568633164 478725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmudict was much easier for me to read.
< 1568633209 467793 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but alan-pron is more informative if you actually want to use it, and doesn't lack as many common words
< 1568633255 166500 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPACE SUPERHERO 
< 1568633370 623951 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This American dictionary clearly doesn't match some American pronunciations.
< 1568633384 397356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, it says: comfortable : ku'mf°rtøb°L
< 1568633451 253362 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: some words have more than one possible pronunciation, and it doesn't generally list all possibilities
< 1568633484 659803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Sometimes it lists multiple pronunciations, but maybe only for words with different meanings.
< 1568633501 134804 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmudict has it wrong too: COMFORTABLE  K AH1 M F ER0 T AH0 B AH0 L
< 1568633514 127016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, maybe I'm wrong.
< 1568633525 953898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people pronounce it a completely bizarro way, which I thought was standard.
< 1568633528 468666 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, multiple pronunciations only when they can make a difference within one speaker, or implicitly in a few symbols that mean vowels that can be pronounced in multiple ways
< 1568633631 700050 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in any case, the docs of alan-pron describes which dictionaries it's derived from, so you can always check those sources and see what they say, and complain to Alan in email about mistakes. I know he reads emails, he fixed one doc-bug on my request.
< 1568633654 822349 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how when a maintainer replies meaningfully to bug reports, that really increases my confidence in how much I can trust something like this, right/
< 1568633687 936354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time
< 1568633691 459793 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for shachaf is Mon Sep 16 04:34:48 2019
< 1568633693 78517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to sleep.
< 1568633724 734985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmudict has about 4 times as many entries
< 1568633760 720536 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and yet misses lots of common words;
< 1568633774 813340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuvoald710-0.2.scm:( "comfortable"  j ( k uh1 m f t @ b l ) ((pos "OA%" ) ))
< 1568633799 89336 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas Alan compiled those small english dictionaries in 12dicts, and used reputable printed dictionaries to compile this, including Wells's, so it should miss fewer common words
< 1568633800 640637 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an impressive constant cluster there, I didn't realize!
< 1568633824 579672 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*consonant
< 1568633860 69968 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all those consonants comfortably clustered together like that
< 1568633892 445948 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't find where I stashed a bunch of pronunciation dictionaries I was playing with, but 'locate' found the above as part of Festival.
< 1568634943 63598 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 👥🕏🥩🕊😂🥛🍃⨔🕴🙌🧻🤣🥘🗾🗽
< 1568634944 774052 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F465 BUSTS IN SILHOUETTE] [U+1F54F BOWL OF HYGIEIA] [U+1F969 CUT OF MEAT] [U+1F54A DOVE OF PEACE] [U+1F602 FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY] [U+1F95B GLASS OF MILK] [U+1F343 LEAF FLUTTERING IN WIND] [U+2A14 LINE INTEGRATION NOT INCLUDING THE POLE] [U+1F574 MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING] [U+1F64C PERSON RAISING BOTH HANDS IN CELEBRATION]
< 1568634952 882011 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 🙌🧻🤣🥘🗾🗽
< 1568634954 218956 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F64C PERSON RAISING BOTH HANDS IN CELEBRATION] [U+1F9FB ROLL OF PAPER] [U+1F923 ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING] [U+1F958 SHALLOW PAN OF FOOD] [U+1F5FE SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN] [U+1F5FD STATUE OF LIBERTY]
< 1568635044 909137 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a cohesive storyline that I'm just not following, or are those characters releated to each other in some other way? 
< 1568635065 175191 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: other  way
< 1568635081 999268 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of what a poem would need other than verbs that is rare in character names
< 1568635093 847520 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is common words: "the", "of", "in", "to"
< 1568635101 979804 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all of these character names have one of those common words
< 1568635120 490703 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are much more such character names, this is just a small selection
< 1568635146 448040 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them, like "LEAF FLUTTERING IN WIND", are poetic
< 1568635156 739819 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some, like "LINE INTEGRATION NOT INCLUDING THE POLE", aren't quite
< 1568635191 131788 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the character names are mostly in alphabetic order
< 1568635269 621640 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SHALLOW PAN OF FOOD" could also work in a poem
< 1568635291 35568 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN" I just found that one strange because of what we said about flag emojis earlier
< 1568635581 372976 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DID YOU KNOW THAT NAMES OF UNICODE CHARACTERS MUST BE UPPERCASE SO THAT THEY CAN BE TRANSMITTED CORRECTLY IN BAUDOT
< 1568635586 778218 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite that I think theflag situation is stupid
< 1568635681 165343 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: baudot is still used?
< 1568635785 916112 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here? sure
< 1568635858 533651 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is baudot ITA-1?
< 1568635959 876434 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ITA1
< 1568635992 775672 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently there's a difference
< 1568636279 201484 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ITA2 is still used in telecommunications devices for the deaf (TDD), telex, and some amateur radio applications, such as radioteletype ("RTTY"). 
< 1568636308 782858 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code
< 1568636362 441197 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: by baudot I just vaguely mean any of the similar codes
< 1568636374 152358 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of locally used variations
< 1568636399 169128 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :5-bit codes
< 1568636404 863813 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they form a huge family, just like how there are a lot of codes similar to ascii and lots of codes similar to ebcdic
< 1568636430 560579 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they come from five-bit telexes and five-hole tape
< 1568636441 395204 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ebcdic was an encryption standandard
< 1568636460 626325 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how ascii is related to seven-bit bytes and ebcdic from 12 line punch cards
< 1568636528 561404 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell the difference because in ascii-related codes, most letters are arranged in alphabetic order; in ebcdic-like codes, they're still in alphabetic order but grouped to nines; in baudot they're in a different order where the most frequent characters have few holes
< 1568636543 695252 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or few bits set
< 1568636553 945164 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568636556 159203 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly that's true to ebcdic too, but in a different way
< 1568636595 666869 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ebcdic, usually there's zero or one bits set from among the 2..9 holes, and ideally as few as possible from the shift holes 12, 11, 10, 1
< 1568636612 588883 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the holes are numbered 12, 11, 10, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 iirc
< 1568636624 83084 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which admittedly isn't that much worse than 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, J, Q, K, 1
< 1568636647 316974 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 7, 8, 9, u, o, K, 10, A
< 1568636653 419306 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any of the other ridiculous numberings
< 1568636729 540483 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones with C, B, A, S, M, MM, MK, MV, GM; the ones with C, B, A, A+, A++, A+++; the ones with D, C, B, A, AA, AAA
< 1568636757 676383 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even the ones with 000, 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4
< 1568636848 179822 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely no battery will be smaller than the "mini" A battery, so let's name that from the _first_ letter of the alphabet. there could be larger batteries than the goliath D battery, so let's reserve all the letters E..Z for them.
< 1568636943 936716 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never actually seen an A battery
< 1568636970 771753 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :N is smaller than AAA
< 1568636973 896147 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: yes, those aren't used anymore
< 1568636978 855619 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes lists a lot
< 1568636983 413563 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :history is complicated
< 1568637049 862572 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cr2016/2025/2032 are named after their size
< 1568637089 500738 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and note from the table that most battery sizes have lots of aliases, because every brand calls them different
< 1568637102 861092 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used like a dozen different battery sizes, and got confused among them several times
< 1568637135 271059 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that that article doesn't even have a photo of an A battery
< 1568637205 103506 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which basically means that it doesn't exist anymore
< 1568637676 538939 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had a dream that i got a series of comic books that looked and worked like 2-way frs/gmrs radios.
< 1568637722 958789 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :dreams are weird
> 1568638072 970112 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[072/9 of an esolang14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66203&oldid=65104 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10+WIP
< 1568638112 990869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568638241 782656 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 
< 1568638264 897540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1568638275 377533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baudot is used in a few esolangs
< 1568638278 918334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly the US-TTY variation
< 1568638291 964218 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both CLC-INTERCAL and 7 use it as part of their character encoding
< 1568638331 18743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 does it because it's normally more efficient than ASCII at storing common strings (in terms of the number of bits required to represent the input), especially when workinig in base 6
< 1568638342 143229 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas I think CLC-INTERCAL just does it to be perverse
< 1568638361 269880 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why INTERCAL does most things that it does
< 1568638384 417720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes
< 1568638394 206274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the aim of INTERCAL is to do things differently from other languages
< 1568638421 992900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll do things better if it can, but normally it does things worse because all the better options have already been taken
< 1568638443 804322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, there is a POSIX standard for tarballs that basically nobody cares about or follows
< 1568638482 814116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's backwards compatible with basically any `tar` implementation (and more modern `tar` implementations actually know how to read it, just in case someone decides to produce a tarball in that format)
< 1568638487 864632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I've been using it for C-INTERCAL's tarballs
< 1568638536 648108 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :pax?
< 1568638557 232828 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568638743 467763 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm relearning how to play go
< 1568638787 480820 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i say relearning because i have a vague memory of me and Sgeo playing.
< 1568638798 581205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, now I'm looking at the specification of the original tar format, without the modern improvements
< 1568638806 840432 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty insane
< 1568638814 444804 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the header is 257 bytes long, padded out to 512 bytes
< 1568638843 622830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(512-byte alignment was likely considered necessary at the time, so technically there's no wasted space, but that 257 really hurts)
< 1568638912 90045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number encoding is ASCII-encoded octal, with a fixed length, but the last character of the fixed-length field has to be either NUL or a space
< 1568639022 516624 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, tar supports like a hundred historical formats. but zip is even more complicated, with all sorts of new compression methods and extensions to store more file information.
< 1568639077 620938 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: gnu should have just renamed the format, rather than pretend that it's a new version of tar. they did it right when they created zlib and gzip, and zlib has grown to become the single most installed software library ever, as far as we can tell.
< 1568639122 895995 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to know whether it became the most installed one before or after they fixed the stupid security bugs in it.
< 1568639141 501607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: aimake actually assumes the presence of zlib's header files
< 1568639164 769665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because some operating systems use a different location for nonstandard header files, and aimake needs to be able to find them too
< 1568639181 229494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I needed at least one nonstandard header file that I could assume to be installed, zlib.h seemed like the best option
< 1568639223 220945 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gotta wake up now
< 1568639345 567782 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these days it has dozens of alternate implementations of zlib compression and decompression, both production and esoteric
< 1568639487 843647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I think I released at least one version of C-INTERCAL as .shar, for old times' sake
< 1568639491 341152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to Usenet, obviously)
< 1568639589 629795 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` tar --help | sed -n '/Archive format se/,$p'
< 1568639590 638868 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ Archive format selection: \  \   -H, --format=FORMAT        create archive of the given format \  \  FORMAT is one of the following: \  \     gnu                      GNU tar 1.13.x format \     oldgnu                   GNU format as per tar <= 1.12 \     pax                      POSIX 1003.1-2001 (pax) format \     posix                    same as pax \     ustar                    POSIX 1003.1-1988 (ustar) format \     v7                       old V7
< 1568639738 64485 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's just the ones it can write. 
< 1568640240 210341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing I learned today: ar is a plaintext format (other than the data of the files it contains, which is stored literally)
< 1568640272 760289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ironic given that nowadays it's basically only used for storing object files (also, IIRC, .deb's outermost wrapper is in ar format)
< 1568640318 128393 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: weren't you in agora?
< 1568640328 154759 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recognize the name
< 1568640389 917231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
> 1568640397 257149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kleinfunge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66204&oldid=45154 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+53) 10
< 1568640402 50519 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i was SCat then.
< 1568640413 961300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still sort-of am in spirit, but mostly just post in a-d and am not a player
< 1568640429 670240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I made an ambiguous registration attempt a while back but it was ruled to have failed)
< 1568640430 342527 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the chunked transfer encoding on HTTP is also a text format, even when the contents aren't text. the chunk lengths are written in ascii-encoded hexadecimal. PPM header is text too, even when the body is binary. 
< 1568640485 877781 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIME multipart can also contain binary data with ascii text headings.
< 1568640531 737712 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, even HTTP headers are text, when the bodies can be any binary content, and you can have a new header after the end of a body for a persistent connection, if either the Content-Length or the Transfer-Encoding tells where the previous body ends.
< 1568640546 548828 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this applies both for HTTP requests and responses, they're basically the same format)
< 1568640557 266567 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't much find text header formats too strange
< 1568640592 377739 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568640595 737768 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are also some binary formats like PNG and sqlite where the magic numbers in the header contain some ascii text, just to make it easier to identify the file type at a glance
< 1568640630 886304 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even bmp and exe and elf are like that, but there the text is only two or three bytes, and for elf it starts at offset 1
< 1568640640 219173 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc
< 1568640721 15683 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, did i actually store live quarantined virii on a hard drive? i must have been really crazy then
< 1568640751 434910 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i was just too lazy to clean out the antivirus
< 1568640824 983053 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hedpvaylxfmgmdwt JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568641126 230054 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have fragmented memories of my past
> 1568641141 219811 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Policy Policy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66205&oldid=66202 5* 03A 5* (+964) 10
< 1568641237 137658 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i didn't know i ever played Go till i started trying to remember my interactions with Sgeo in college.
< 1568641255 786865 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1568641377 93800 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have played go on at least one occasion!
< 1568641398 617970 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :I met them at the Green Chair Club.
< 1568641407 349048 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand enough of it to know that I am really bad at the game
< 1568641423 3653 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm equally bad at the programming language, probably
< 1568641425 106365 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :1000 kyu here too
< 1568641452 101853 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that means "i suck at the game"
< 1568641477 601507 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if we ever run into each other we should have a game
< 1568641491 805466 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember the rules
< 1568641500 961375 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we are equally disadvantaged
< 1568641516 332227 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, are there any esolangs based on Go (the board game)?
< 1568641528 544775 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to my knowlege
< 1568641537 408735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are, they were most likely created by zzo38
< 1568641539 867161 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about chess?
< 1568641542 376911 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr seeing a paper showing that (infinite) Go is PSPACE-complete
< 1568641567 97566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that paper is basically an esolang definition in its own right
< 1568641586 649726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, PSPACE-completeness would imply generalized, not infinite, wouldn't it?
< 1568641608 877957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infinite version is likely to be TC with a plausible definition of how to arrange the initial board and what the win conditions are
< 1568641614 381361 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, I misspoke when I said "infinite". I'm very sorry.
< 1568641635 686328 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have seen someone else who tried to teach Go to young people to popularize it. does that count?
< 1568641653 644175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make it work by marking some of the stones of each player, and you win by capturing a marked stone
< 1568641680 44237 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my sanity level got improved after i realized I was misgendered at birth.
< 1568641688 244828 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? go
< 1568641691 868259 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
< 1568641693 167314 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: often the way
< 1568641780 489274 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :win by capturing a marked stone => there's a variant rule for Risk the board game like that, where every player names a territory as their capital, and if it's continuously not controlled by that player for three turns, then they lose
< 1568641799 866039 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the capitals are publci
< 1568641813 747869 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :pubic?
< 1568641823 938818 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :public
< 1568641827 524696 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568641829 813709 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568641999 476458 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know it costs over $200 to change your name in the state i live in?
< 1568642013 194169 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a whole bunch
< 1568642020 468664 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the UK it's free if you know what you're doing
< 1568642047 793932 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: is that for an adult to change their name?
< 1568642056 465520 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568642101 251800 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you just get named differently in a different state where that's simpler, then come back with the identifying documents from that state to prove that you've changed your name, to get the change accepted by this state easiliy?
< 1568642183 294635 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use my chosen name so much that i kinda have to change it to it. Hell, i type copyright notices for essolangs with my chosen name, not my deadname.
< 1568642234 450124 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC in the UK the main requirement to have your name legally changed is that you convince sufficiently many people to interact with you using it
< 1568642256 353163 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1C58758123BC4A13642160.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568642268 666395 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there's a thingy with a standard wording that you have to fill in in the presence of witnesses
< 1568642294 742616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes, that's a fairly easily complied-with requirement though
< 1568642307 436986 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only requirement
< 1568642322 742267 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in England and Wales)
< 1568642337 774416 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's the officially recommended way, but isn't it easier everywhere to just get id documents in another country that doesn't insist that you use exactly the same name as on your previous identification documents, and then migrate that name back?
< 1568642339 29629 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will have to publish my name change in the local newspaper
< 1568642370 526531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think many newspapers have columns for legal notices, that nobody actually reads
< 1568642383 898363 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :except my dad...
< 1568642443 112256 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are these printed newspapers or digital newspapers or both?
< 1568642451 73502 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ho he found out the neighbors were doing something asshole-ish
< 1568642458 116538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deed_of_change_of_name
< 1568642472 706002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: at the time the laws were created, it was printed newspapers
< 1568642563 375160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, so apparently if you change your name by deed poll, you don't even need to tell anyone you've changed it; all you need is the deed poll itself, which has to be notarized but doesn't have to be officially registered
< 1568642608 974542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is an official process if you want, e.g., your passport changed
< 1568642632 717519 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, because very few institutions are allowed to issue passports
< 1568642711 287051 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly some government office for permanent passports, consulates for temporary passports, and a few more for special purpose stuff, but the biggest are government offices that issue thousands of passports so they need procedures and forms
< 1568643219 464904 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently Wob_jonas would work to get the same green as b_jonas
< 1568643239 265787 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :you not same person?
< 1568643281 108353 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am the same person
< 1568643291 550342 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i thought
< 1568643365 672670 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so would wib_jonas or bb_jonas
< 1568643377 411162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement
< 1568643380 742273 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1568643382 613407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement
< 1568643395 441933 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523
< 1568643420 918723 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat NICK :SchrodingersCat
< 1568643427 984319 :SchrodingersCat!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat NICK :Lykaina
< 1568643548 477452 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather be a she-wolf than a semi-dead cat
< 1568643776 176507 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the internet, nobody knows if you are a werewolf.
< 1568643974 703928 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On that note, I saw a very nice full moon a few days ago. Close to the horizon, sort of amber in colour.
< 1568643999 652889 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :howoo!
< 1568644012 427088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and due to a fairly well-known optical illusion, appearing larger than normal?
< 1568644079 776064 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that seems possible, because the moon was full two days ago
< 1568644160 762470 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd ..
< 1568644163 43440 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1568644165 577841 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568644172 932941 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cd ..
< 1568644173 895858 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568644214 319374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like writing (cd ..) in a shellscript
< 1568644225 79261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :running it in a subshell makes it pretty pointless
< 1568644354 770358 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure. except in DOS, or to check that you have permissions to chdir there.
< 1568644410 185806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm curious about whether there's any circumstance in which cd .. might fail due to a lack of permission
< 1568644441 849964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it can fail if you're cd'ing to a filename (lack of permission, nonexistent, not a directory, probably other things I haven't thought of)
< 1568644533 508489 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it sure can change
< 1568644535 622781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to remember what .. is internally; I think it's a hardlink, right?
< 1568644536 723373 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure can fail
< 1568644549 716610 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, .. is just handled by the file system code magicallyi
< 1568644563 46736 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be represented by a hardlink on some file systems, but that barely matters now
< 1568644589 61800 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel parses .. to mean the parent directory even if it's not stored as an explicit name in the file system
< 1568644591 11013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link count of a directory still reflects .. as though it were a hardlink
< 1568644604 510212 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think its hardlinkness is being simulated even though it's obsolete
< 1568644630 19347 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I read through the possible failure modes of chdir(1) and none of them seem to apply to a chdir to .. apart from possibly ENOMEM and EIO
< 1568644661 561051 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568644695 708977 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that too is only on most filesystems; on some filesystems the link count of directories doesn't show anything useful
< 1568644719 282581 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568644735 239672 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568644760 747797 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cd .. rarely fails to permissions because you can't read the .. directory entry if you don't have effective execute permissio to the parent directory?
< 1568644766 96675 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know
< 1568644785 289887 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd .. would fail on the root dir, right?
< 1568644794 151 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: not on unix, no
< 1568644808 496263 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on unix, /.. is just the same as /
< 1568644871 770578 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I managed to make cd .. fail to permissions
< 1568644882 634183 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by chmodding the .. in question to 000
< 1568644896 665485 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1568644925 598103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oddly, I could chmod it back without issues
< 1568644930 800807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even by naming it as ..
< 1568644990 150565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, I can chmod .. if I have write+search permission to the current directory, even if I have neither permission to either .. or ../..
< 1568644991 934779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that feels like a bug
< 1568645011 507271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and may be part of the reason why hardlinking directories is banned
< 1568645173 50713 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: chmod by using its absolute pass. you can't look up .. because you don't have search permissions for .. so you can't check if . exists and .. should fail if . doesn't exist
< 1568645179 841848 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/pass/path/
< 1568645217 625014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: the situation is that I'm currently in directory /a/b/c/, I have no permissions to a or b (because I removed them while chdir'd into c) but I do have permissions to c
< 1568645243 436120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can chmod b by naming it as ".." even though I can't chmod it by naming it with its name
< 1568645274 490109 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that makes sense
< 1568645300 932310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? I just changed the metadata of a directory I have no permissions to, with no permissions to its parent directory either
< 1568645301 606575 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the permissions to c won't be re-checked if you access it through cd or a file handle, so what I said above makes no sense
< 1568645316 265836 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also don't forget that the shell does some magic for cd
< 1568645318 643082 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` help cd
< 1568645320 399733 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd: cd [-L|[-P [-e]] [-@]] [dir] \     Change the shell working directory. \      \     Change the current directory to DIR.  The default DIR is the value of the \     HOME shell variable. \      \     The variable CDPATH defines the search path for the directory containing \     DIR.  Alternative directory names in CDPATH are separated by a colon (:). \     A null directory name is the same as the current directory.  If DIR begins \     with a slash (/), 
< 1568645321 741973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the permissions to c that matter, it's the permissions to b
< 1568645325 370507 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which involves interpreting .. specially
< 1568645335 184206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although magic is involved in cd, this is not a cd command, it's a chmod command
< 1568645351 36173 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if you cd to a symlink, .. goes back to where the symlink were, because the shell pretends that that's how it works, even if that's not the kernel's idea
< 1568645394 640618 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have no permission to . either, then I can't chmod either . or ..
< 1568645436 518093 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` help cd | tail -n+16
< 1568645438 656048 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​    Options: \       -L	force symbolic links to be followed: resolve symbolic \     		links in DIR after processing instances of `..' \       -P	use the physical directory structure without following \     		symbolic links: resolve symbolic links in DIR before \     		processing instances of `..' \       -e	if the -P option is supplied, and the current working \     		directory cannot be determined successfully, exit with \     		a non-zero status \    
< 1568645439 963367 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try cd -P
< 1568645450 979717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my problem is with the apparent situation that .. is treated as being contained in the current directory and thus I can edit its metadata if I have write permission to the current directory
< 1568645464 889006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lob_jonas: this is nothing to do with cd
< 1568645474 986391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cd doesn't change into directories where you're missing search permission
< 1568645485 309358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the situation can arise without using cd at all
< 1568645509 209646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than the fact that your current directory needs to somehow be a few directories away from the root)
< 1568645539 626751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is that chmod, and presumably other metadata-changing commands, are allowed on .. as long as you have write permission to the current directory, even if you don't have write permission to it or its parent directory
< 1568645623 346542 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm
< 1568645635 33944 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but isn't that because you own .. ?
< 1568645667 152735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me set up a test for this
< 1568645737 611063 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/chmod.2.html suggests that to be able to chmod a file, when the set?id bits are not involved, what you need is to either own the file or be root
< 1568645748 939795 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, you own the directory, so that permission check succeeds
< 1568645757 357362 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, chmod is specified to allow chmodding if a) you own the file, and b) you have +x permission to all components in the path you use other than the last
< 1568645776 157760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the weirdness in this case is that I can specify the directory's name despite it being in a -x directory
< 1568645780 135251 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the latter is needed for the path lookup to succeed
< 1568645822 866779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the permission is related to the lookup, rather than the directory itself, so if I'm already inside the directory I don't need the lookup and chmod lets me change the directory permissions because I own it
< 1568645841 554213 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started to do some tests on hackeso, but the way it runs my commands twice complicates that
< 1568645957 985453 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and if you have a deep hierarchy of directories, you can traverse them with either pwd or file descriptors pointing to the directories and *at functions, and the kernel doesn't need to do any checks on the whole deep path from the root to your file
< 1568645988 436880 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how read/write doesn't try to do permission checks once you have a file open
< 1568645993 690651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the *at API works so much better than the cwd API
< 1568646009 530545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the "let's just use absolute paths everywhere" API, which is massively subject to race conditions
< 1568646051 788909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad that WASM decided to use the *at API as the only filesystem API (this is both for allowing the program to secure itself against races, and for allowing the surrounding environment to secure itself against the program)
< 1568646087 206515 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: isn't that because pwd doesn't work well with multithreading, and people want multithreaded programs with WASM in a threaD?
< 1568646101 150505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pwd is basically a global variable API
< 1568646120 255491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those always seem to turn out to be a bad idea in retrospect (often when written, too!)
< 1568646155 408318 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's sort of like an implicit file descriptor that you usually can't access as a normal file descriptor, except in specific *at calls
< 1568646243 22487 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even go between the two, open(".",O_PATH,0) to get a file descriptor from the pwd, fchdir to get the pwd from a file descriptor 
< 1568646397 285949 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1180
< 1568646399 156346 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1180: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1568646430 402841 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? password
< 1568646433 154846 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The password of the month is ninjaed.
< 1568646454 39497 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :`open the pod bay door
< 1568646455 749394 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: open: not found
< 1568646479 86232 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the o comic is on a separate server, you can access the published strips without the password. in fact, we ring the o-bell when one of the strips becomes accessible without a password.
< 1568646486 416941 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: I'm afraid I can't let you do that, [single-syllable version of Lykaina].
< 1568646487 852817 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`whatis open
< 1568646492 212444 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :open(2) - open and possibly create a file \ open(3p) - open file relative to directory file descriptor \ open(3glibc) - Opening and Closing Files
< 1568646590 340744 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Lyka, but it's two syllables
< 1568646752 241481 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lyka = lee-kah
< 1568646774 386105 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina = Lee-keh-nah
< 1568646881 721442 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's how i pronounce them
< 1568648424 366529 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interesting name :)
< 1568648758 796519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1568649157 19480 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1568649190 442924 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hedpvaylxfmgmdwt QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568649734 300233 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all have a nice day or night
< 1568649745 968124 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we get to choose?
< 1568649777 396422 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it’s ⅋
< 1568649877 921787 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568649887 26046 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww :(
< 1568649896 897588 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we refuse to have a day or night at all?
< 1568649902 173073 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:50ab:e163:13f1:e19f JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568649951 905704 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no; though there is a speciall offer for the first to use it to replace their copy of ⅋ with ⊕
< 1568649975 734331 :lob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568649982 632531 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decline
< 1568649995 690916 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I didn’t know linear logic jokes are that fun
< 1568650343 771157 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg
< 1568650368 118296 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568650448 436263 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello arseniiv 
< 1568650479 136088 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmcello!
< 1568650630 84149 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I have a stupid question. I see several people and bots have something like “unaffiliated” in theirs /WHOIS info (that “is connecting from” part of output). I don’t know the proper terminology so I don’t even know what to google to know if I can change that thing myself
< 1568650667 167384 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's called a cloak
< 1568650705 495930 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/cloaks
< 1568650742 93073 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: fizzie: oh, thank you!
< 1568650766 122407 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Do you think we should apply for an "unaffiliated/fizzie/bot/fungot" cloak for you? 
< 1568650766 428055 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: who uses it apart from graphics primitives. if built correctly it actually takes less typing for bigger stuff. :) hehe... to task switch, it just the hw you're intrested in motorola fnord :)
< 1568650781 825829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell if that's yes or no.
< 1568650789 930818 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a no
< 1568650798 870344 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who uses cloaks, apart from graphics primitives?
< 1568650803 521480 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it wasn't a very enthusiastic yes.
< 1568650821 971269 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wizards? or is that more of a robe than a cloak
< 1568650830 620585 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: We will respect your right to self-determination and not do that, then.
< 1568650830 729809 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what unholy magic is this :o fnord hours left
< 1568650863 363048 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard assassins and spies have both a cloak and a dagger.
< 1568650891 64022 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think these days those are more ceremonial, awarded at the graduation ceremony
< 1568650891 966745 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm are there cloak categories
< 1568651030 138616 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( on a graduation ceremony, a party of people threw their ceremonial daggers skywards. What is the probability of each dagger striking the wrong person )
< 1568651048 970594 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, landing on
< 1568651068 380307 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :striking is a striking typo
< 1568651119 476680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs more information
< 1568651167 261568 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/n I think, assuming all the unreasonable assumptions I am making
< 1568651401 888666 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Is there a God? Will there be a God after They've been struck by n knives? Are they a person, and if so, are they right or wrong?
< 1568651441 816926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm thinking about this too realistically, I think... in which case most knives will land between people rather than on them.
< 1568651467 204361 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And at least one person will die in a freak accident unrelated to the knives.
< 1568651550 433353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Making some unreasonable assumptions myself I get (1-1/n)^n ~ 1/e, or 1/0! - 1/1! + 1/2! - + ... +/- 1/n! ~= 1/e.
< 1568651607 782737 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/n would be the probability of getting a permutation with a single cycle of length n, but there are many more derangements than that.
< 1568651699 449201 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568651873 29793 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568652108 78279 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmmm
< 1568652129 494642 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they is a personal pronoun, not a person
< 1568652136 359057 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I’ll show myself out)
< 1568652216 939764 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah now I understand why are there God-related questions
< 1568652265 346115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :let’s assume They are insubstantial if existent so can’t be striken by anything but cosmic grief
< 1568652304 814574 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : But I'm thinking about this too realistically, I think... in which case most knives will land between people rather than on them. => even if people are packed tight?
< 1568652341 189495 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if considering asymptotic behavior, this should be the case)
< 1568652391 688795 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568652399 197345 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :≈ 1/e is the classic and right answer in the limit, yes
< 1568652431 775899 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/e is the answer to everpthing
< 1568652457 174883 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a classic problem with many names and formulations so I made my own)
< 1568652465 668343 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: not e?
< 1568652477 244035 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends whether the answer should be less than or greater than one
< 1568652490 88078 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and what about 42, certainly 42 ≠ e)
< 1568652493 755157 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ah!
< 1568652564 427997 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :e makes a lousy probability
< 1568652586 94122 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Presumably 42 = e in base 1/4(e-2).
< 1568652634 165038 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :one cen find e positive enswer to enything with eny nonzero precision by summing powers of e
< 1568652643 335945 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But of course -80538738812075974^3 + 80435758145817515^3 + 12602123297335631^3 isn't a good probability either.
< 1568652668 451111 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I heard that!
< 1568652795 751717 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Note that cloaks are a privilege, and staff have the right to deny that privilege to users if they deem necessary.
< 1568652797 826982 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:33: error: parse error on input ‘,’
< 1568652800 81848 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm
< 1568652807 818296 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry lambdabot
< 1568652812 325571 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :@botsnack
< 1568652812 572214 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1568652826 89731 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@lambdabot is used to abuse.
< 1568652826 205751 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list
< 1568653363 607112 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m bit afraid to write them. Now I don’t know if it’s feasible
< 1568655343 977048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568655381 129696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what. I just got dead-tree spam about scientology. this may be a first, but of course I'm not really sure because I don't read or forget spam really quickly.
< 1568655415 847303 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they even succeeded to make it look different enough from normal spam that I payed attention for enough time to read that it's about scientology
< 1568655469 507782 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1568655476 301073 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a scientology office just up the street from me
< 1568655486 377944 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I see them in public areas (subway stations and plazas) pretty offten
< 1568655504 459652 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I see the Jehova's Witnesses more
< 1568655525 849855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know they have some presence here, but I don't follow the details
< 1568655527 488112 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also on Sundays there will be a guy down in the hispanic neighborhood wearing a suit yelling into a megaphone about Jesus in spanish
< 1568655804 72845 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of religious evangelist groups on the street here, both polite ones and annoying ones
< 1568655855 389661 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a big group of polite ones who stand in underpasses with some booklets, they never bother anyone and don't try to talk to people on their own initiative, their signs are attention-catching enough
< 1568655940 711443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a really annoying group shouting and singing about how Jesus is the only way to salvation every Wednesday evening when I return from the swimming pool, they're standing in such a huge circle in the Barross tér underpass that you can't avoid them if you have to go from the Thököly side to the Kerepesi side, you have to pass between them twice as you intersect the circle twice
< 1568655946 770621 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're very loud too
< 1568656010 956916 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a big circle is quite a feat, because that underpass is huge and partly open, and the circle is sparse enough that they're clearly doing it deliberately 
< 1568656049 997700 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no Spanish ones of course, but I have met a polite guy in the Blaha underpass many years ago who was explaining to me about the grace of God in English
< 1568656485 960074 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568659735 720129 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1C58758123BC4A13642160.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568659756 662885 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1C58758123BC4A13642160.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568659907 836982 :user24_!~user24@p2E50C4B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568660079 969660 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF1C58758123BC4A13642160.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1568661727 230816 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568662725 596659 :user24_!~user24@p2E50C4B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568663019 892238 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh!
< 1568663039 260688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` date "+%^08%"
< 1568663041 64228 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000000%
< 1568663066 341854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu libc's strftime accepts width and modifiers to the %% format specifier
< 1568663121 861282 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to find the start of format specifiers in a strftime format. I thought at first it would be as easy as finding all percent signs that are preceded by exactly an event number of percent signs. no. you have to parse the modifiers in full.
< 1568663170 516456 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` date "+(%08i)" # it even accepts width for invalid format specifiers, seriously
< 1568663173 103710 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(0000%08i)
< 1568663201 102144 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"%i" would be passed through, but "%08i" pads "%08i" to 8 wide with zeroes
< 1568663211 543304 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` date "+%^i"
< 1568663213 602424 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​%^I
< 1568663224 456805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that one uppercases the passed through invalid sequence
< 1568663431 966528 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seem to me that it would be sensible for invalid format specifiers to be an error. Width and modifiers for %% format specifier look like OK, though, even though it seems strange and not so useful, it still makes sense that it will work.
< 1568663513 470259 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what kind of error?
< 1568663559 530211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that it makes sense for strftime to allow untrusted format strings as input, so that eg. a web form can let the user type any locale name and format string that they want to see timestamps formatted in
< 1568663577 674151 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what kind of error.
< 1568663596 590613 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make sense to not apply the modifiers to the passed through invalid format escapes I think
< 1568663608 396137 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to consider double percent with anything between invalid
< 1568663630 158244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no, even then it wouldn't be so simple
< 1568663698 732573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally make the double precent invalid, but in a way where the second percent string starts a new format specifier, so even "%0%B" is turned to "%0" followed by the month name
< 1568663842 237708 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll just make a half-solution that works on sane format strings, and gives garbage but doesn't segfault on general format strings
< 1568663981 580908 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it should return 0 if an invalid format specifier is included, because that is what the man page says it otherwise does in case of an error. (But, it can also return 0 if it is empty. Still, it shouldn't be a problem, since it is easy to see if it is empty, and it is unlikely that you want %p by itself anyways; if you do, then you probably don't care why it is zero.)
< 1568664120 831517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` date "+(%:z)(%8:z)(%:8z)" # oh, that's even funnier
< 1568664126 686956 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​(+00:00)(+0000:00)(%:8z)
< 1568664139 277243 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If it is entered by a user and the program wants to check for an error but does not check that it is empty, then, depending on the application, the user might put in a space, or a Unicode zero width space (on a web form), etc)
< 1568664143 19475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in case of an error"? what error? strftime can't give an error, can it?
< 1568664197 454307 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose one error might be that it is too long and won't fit in the provided buffer; maybe there are other errors too I don't know
< 1568664286 103450 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you'er right, it returns 0 if the string is too long for the buffer
< 1568664317 749390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose %5Y is good for the Long Now Foundation
< 1568664454 311148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just parse by assuming each format escape is valid, in which case I can match them by /(%[-#0-9:EO^_]*[^-#0-9:EO^_])/
< 1568664471 990032 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, actually 
< 1568664487 447208 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that /(%[-#0-9:EO^_]*[^-#0-9:EO^_]?)/ so it matches truncated ones at the end 
< 1568664726 505312 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should check what gnu coreutils date does, because it does add _one_ new format to strftime's repertoire, %N, which doesn't make sense for strftime
< 1568669349 200682 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(LC_ALL=hu_HU.utf8 date -d "2019-10-05" "+%^B") prints "OKTóBER" with a lower case ó on my machine where that locale is installed. I think that's a bug.
< 1568669371 445893 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I trust the date formats of the hu_HU.utf8 locale anyway
< 1568669377 231152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still
< 1568669392 702008 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` locale -a # can't test it on HackEso, locales aren't installed
< 1568669394 716282 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :C \ C.UTF-8 \ POSIX \ en_GB.utf8 \ en_NZ.utf8 \ en_US.utf8
< 1568669445 221809 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a C.UTF-8 locale? that's nice
< 1568669577 652748 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: (LC_ALL=fi_FI.utf8 date -d "2019-06-05" "+%^B") prints "KESäKUU" with a lowercase ä on my machine, which is likely the same bug.
< 1568669593 305148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: good to know
< 1568669601 627921 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's on linux, right?
< 1568669620 723620 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, on a conventional glibc Debian system.
< 1568669673 900261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, "kesäkuu" translates literally to "summer month", which is I guess evidence that whoever named the Finnish months wasn't too creative.
< 1568669684 522727 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568669684 559060 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568669699 667360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also syyskuu (September) translates to "autumn month".
< 1568669708 832819 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason there's no "spring month" or "winter month" though.
< 1568669731 520044 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungarian has at least two series of alternate month names, one where all of them are named of the four seasons, and one where they're named of saints
< 1568669748 782487 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides the normal latin-based month names
< 1568669755 400401 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and roman numerals
< 1568669762 829996 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still say we should just use %m to name the months
< 1568669770 589031 :hppavilion[2]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1568669805 802354 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and %Y-%m-%d for dates
< 1568669848 637495 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Finnish %b abbreviations are up to 6 letters, which I'm sure causes some formatting problems somewhere.
< 1568669851 578979 :andrewtheircer!b2de11e6@178-222-17-230.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568669878 839716 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: like buffer overflows on particular dates, depending on the phase of the moon?
< 1568669890 116919 :andrewtheircer!b2de11e6@178-222-17-230.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568669891 588262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, "%B" is always the same as "%bkuu".
< 1568669912 965637 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("kuu" being the Moon.)
< 1568669945 391260 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, tests misteriously failing on saturdays between 10 september and 31 september on full moon if the wind speed is over 100 km/h 
< 1568670012 7943 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once submitted some code at work that got automagically blamed as a build-breaking change because it was the first change submitted after the time when a time-based unit test stopped working.
< 1568670034 55313 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, is "misterious" a foggy version of "mysterious"?
< 1568670054 177183 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow
< 1568670072 356301 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B3nap#Magyar_h%C3%B3napnevek lists _four_ series of alternate months names
< 1568670084 339546 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :many of those names don't even make sense
< 1568670120 959247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it sayss that columns 5 and 6 don't count, so only three series
< 1568670146 261634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one with the saints, one with the seasons, and a weird one
< 1568670187 784201 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lot more month names than we've got.
< 1568670516 864006 :andrewtheircer!b2de11e6@178-222-17-230.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568670536 434131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I barely know the normal latin-based month names anyway. I always keep forgetting which names are for month 08, 09, and 10.
< 1568670607 385240 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :calendars are supposed to track this, but half of them don't show both the month number and month name together
< 1568670726 894611 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` for m in 08 09 10; do date "+%m %B" -d "2019-$m"; done
< 1568670730 887387 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :date: invalid date '2019-08' \ date: invalid date '2019-09' \ date: invalid date '2019-10'
< 1568670735 681529 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid
< 1568670739 915528 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` for m in 08 09 10; do date "+%m %B" -d "2019-$m-01"; done
< 1568670741 769635 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :08 August \ 09 September \ 10 October
< 1568671373 682579 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is that.
< 1568671404 620598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`locale
< 1568671406 330860 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
< 1568671407 754028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` locale
< 1568671409 481522 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
< 1568671416 576061 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: C 
< 1568671425 164272 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat.
< 1568671436 784606 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` locale
< 1568671438 627670 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL=
< 1568671452 633356 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :two backticks gives New Zealand english locale, three backticks gives C locale
< 1568671463 774216 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no I mean the `for m in 08 09 10; do date "+%m %B" -d "2019-$m-01"; done`
< 1568671470 340304 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that just bash?
< 1568671472 648091 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` locale; for m in 08 09 10; do date "+%m %B" -d "2019-$m-01"; done
< 1568671474 740919 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL= \ 08 August \ 09 September \ 10 October
< 1568671475 295967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's bash
< 1568671477 53013 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, shellscrip- yup, that is.
< 1568671505 134209 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` echo $BASH $BASH_VERSION
< 1568671508 32513 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin/bash 4.4.12(1)-release
< 1568671898 960852 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568672930 388249 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568672955 148340 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skill Bite {XUR} Instant ;; Target creature you control deals X damage to another target creature; X can't be more than the first creature's power. If any damage is dealt in tihs way, the first creature gains copies of all of the second creature's activated abilities until end of turn. ;; Cycling {3} ;; Flashback {X2UR}
< 1568673010 190181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :South Sunrise {2W} Instant ;; Skip the next main phase.
< 1568673098 874640 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568673107 540983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you can write your comment/complaint of this please.
< 1568673115 643850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that latter is sort of like a Silence, right?
< 1568673163 364892 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a little bit, but it is different.
< 1568673181 765890 :rickbutton!~rickbutto@134.209.72.59 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb1+bionic0 - https://znc.in
< 1568673194 213736 :rickbutton!~rickbutto@134.209.72.59 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568673258 339336 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, now I thought of what feature should be adding in TeXnicard, which is, something to help with the collaboration, maybe.
< 1568673336 393495 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm not sure that first one works. what happens if you choose a too high value of X? you choose X before the targets. it should be phrased to restrict the first target I think.
< 1568673362 408077 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568673366 784995 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it does restrict the valid targets, even though the wording is like that.
< 1568673379 354148 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the cannibal abaility, that's ... weird, but might work, I dunno
< 1568673400 470566 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/abai/abi/
< 1568673451 829434 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's especially funny when the damage is redirected
< 1568673561 743736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or when it steals loyalty abilities, and yes, I know that happens with other quicksilver abilities too
< 1568674298 598514 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568674310 685966 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I ask a php related question?
< 1568674326 940866 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my nick registration is pending
< 1568674439 540450 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2d15:65a8:c6dd:6c2d JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568674612 603044 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you can try
< 1568674640 964915 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:50ab:e163:13f1:e19f QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568674963 127451 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? php
< 1568674969 392088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? php
< 1568674972 54903 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :php is the PigeonHole Principle
< 1568674991 601069 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568675017 168626 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568675630 754797 :rickbutton!~rickbutto@134.209.72.59 QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb1+bionic0 - https://znc.in
< 1568676379 911971 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568676727 595766 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-144.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568677216 359087 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568677296 226511 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568678231 357243 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye... (feeling too sick to stay connected)
< 1568678244 438852 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568679035 715414 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here messed with WebAssembly much?
< 1568679078 934425 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out a clean way for WASM to generate and load WASM, and then load references to the generated functions/tables/data so that it can be used.
< 1568679144 487764 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is for a embedded impl of WASM, not the kind you'd see in a browser
< 1568679160 268226 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so spec changes are possible
< 1568679194 887982 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568679517 186589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does amd64 have both "Move imm32 to r32." and "Move imm32 to r/m32."?
< 1568679536 50922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably look up the 32-bit encodings.
< 1568679563 149880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://c9x.me/x86/html/file_module_x86_id_176.html has it too.
< 1568679594 182418 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568679620 489494 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's one byte shorter for the imm32-to-r32 case?
< 1568680058 96939 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been assuming they've dedicated 8 one-byte opcodes for "MOV r32, imm32" because it's so common.
< 1568680076 863143 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And 8 more for "MOV r8, imm8".)
< 1568680097 980377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1568680274 956567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x64; lea (%rax), %rax
< 1568680277 218073 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  64 48 8d 00   lea %fs:(%rax),%rax
< 1568680349 185707 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 mov eax, 0x7f7f7f7f
< 1568680354 208714 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=ping
< 1568680359 387612 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568680362 562032 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 mov eax, 0x7f7f7f7f
< 1568680364 51089 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :b87f7f7f7f
< 1568680372 903684 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 mov [ecx], 0x7f7f7f7f
< 1568680372 939952 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :c7017f7f7f7f
< 1568680380 352503 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ^ 1 byte shorter, so yes
< 1568680396 604343 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :=rasm2 mov [eax], 0x7f7f7f7f
< 1568680396 641787 :asdfbot!potato@hellomouse/bin/notJeffbot PRIVMSG #esoteric :c7007f7f7f7f
< 1568680443 473842 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know.
< 1568680487 304292 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, assumed you were unsure due to saying `i guess`
< 1568680506 551207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough.
< 1568680587 966922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the way VEX flips some of the REX bits so that the 32-bit encoding happens to turn into an invalid register r/m operand.
< 1568680850 753254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0xa1
< 1568680852 774166 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  a1   .byte 0xa1
< 1568680854 571251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is this used?
< 1568680867 895498 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :oo. uh let's see
< 1568680874 305725 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/asm
< 1568680876 8556 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" > /tmp/asm.s; for o in ',' '-msyntax=intel -mnaked-reg,-M intel'; do if as ${o%,*} /tmp/asm.s -o /tmp/asm.o 2>>/tmp/asm.err; then objdump ${o#*,} -d --insn-width=20 /tmp/asm.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d" | perl -pe 'if (/^\s*(\w+:)\s*((?:\w\w )+)\s*(\S.*)$/) { ($a,$b,$c) = ($1,$2,$3); $_ = "$a  $b  ".($c =~ s/\s+/ /rg)."\n"; }'; exit; fi; done; cat /tmp/asm.err
< 1568680889 835149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reference: https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/mov
< 1568680896 933844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOV EAX,moffs32
< 1568680959 50277 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :..what assembler is being used? I can't tell
< 1568680970 503998 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's using GNU as.
< 1568680978 772467 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568680979 11387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tries both Intel and AT&T syntax.
< 1568682955 710353 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo '__thread long x; long foo(void) { return x; }' > /tmp/test.c && gcc -shared -fPIC -O2 -shared /tmp/test.c -o /tmp/test.so && objdump -d /tmp/test.so | grep -A5 'foo'
< 1568682958 462961 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000000000000740 : \  740:	48 83 ec 08          	sub    $0x8,%rsp \  744:	66 48 8d 3d 84 08 20 	data16 lea 0x200884(%rip),%rdi        # 200fd0  \  74b:	00  \  74c:	66 66 48 e8 cc fe ff 	data16 data16 callq 620 <__tls_get_addr@plt> \  753:	ff
< 1568682974 329586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's all this? What are those data16s doing?
< 1568683012 498796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, I just needed -fPIC to get this behavior, not -shared.
< 1568683077 714552 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this just some kind of padding?
< 1568683470 713445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or space for patching something? (Don't know, just a guess.)
< 1568683506 504945 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't quite get bwhy it needs a call.
< 1568683574 557420 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a time when GCC defaulted to using "rep ret" when it needed to emit a return instruction that was also the target of a branch, because of a branch predictor bug on AMD processors.
< 1568683614 531718 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably faster than "nop; ret".
< 1568683617 716252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 echo '__thread long x; long foo(void) { return x; }' > /tmp/test.c && gcc -shared -fPIC -O2 /tmp/test.c -S -o /dev/stdout
< 1568683620 413278 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:	.file	"test.c" \ 	.text \ 	.p2align 4,,15 \ 	.globl	foo \ 	.type	foo, @function \ foo: \ .LFB0: \ 	.cfi_startproc \ 	subq	$8, %rsp \ 	.cfi_def_cfa_offset 16 \ 	.byte	0x66 \ 	leaq	x@tlsgd(%rip), %rdi \ 	.value	0x6666 \ 	rex64 \ 	call	__tls_get_addr@PLT \ 	movq	(%rax), %rax \ 	addq	$8, %rsp \ 	.cfi_def_cfa_offset 8 \ 	ret \ 	.cfi_endproc \ .LFE0: \ 	.size	foo, .-foo \ 	.globl	x \ 	.section	.tbss,"awT",@nobits \ 	.align 8 \ 	.type	x, @object \ 	.size	x,
< 1568683639 581660 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even -S explicitly generates ".value 0x6666".
< 1568683748 232493 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the call, I think a bunch of the @PLT stuff involves calls that get patched out on first call, so maybe it's space for that. Don't remember any of the details though.
> 1568683786 440777 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07SIG14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66206&oldid=19939 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+42) 10
< 1568683806 200174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the same deal with -fno-plt
< 1568683819 79148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Good gcc flags I found out about recently. I think I'll compile all my program with -fno-plt now.)
< 1568683838 541369 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's it do
< 1568683896 704051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compiles dynamic linker calls to "callq *offset(%rip)"
< 1568683905 701376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where offset is an offset into the GOT.
< 1568683918 470548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means you can't do lazy loading, but lazy loading doesn't seem great to me anyway.
< 1568683922 351177 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1568683935 457561 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it means you always have an indirect call
< 1568683937 865068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually you probably could do lazy loading if you really wanted to.)
< 1568683939 540671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well, maybe TLS involves some of the same kind of shenanigans, it's a TLA as well.
< 1568683940 448777 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a direct call and a direct jump?
< 1568683943 796670 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the PLT has an indirect call anyway!
< 1568683947 311615 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it?
< 1568683953 358926 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It has the same call.
< 1568683956 712231 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't it self-modify to remove it
< 1568683958 507922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you get a direct call *and* an indirect call.
< 1568683966 730869 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's scow.
< 1568683981 444736 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... Hmm, does it?
< 1568683992 509399 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it involved self-modification *somewhere*.
< 1568683999 617445 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I should double-check.
< 1568684015 45444 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the PLT doesn't turn +w at runtime, though.
< 1568684054 308238 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it used to self-modify, but then security happened.
< 1568684063 909038 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stacks used to be executable too.
< 1568684067 841258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is the amd64 ABI. It's all different for 86 anyway.
< 1568684069 243033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :x
< 1568684071 76655 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use ld -z now, or whatever
< 1568684077 188302 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should do the self modification before main()
< 1568684078 118723 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe?
< 1568684088 475585 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION execute fizzie's stack
< 1568684119 958645 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You're all about stacks and stack stacks, right? Are they executable?
< 1568684120 177280 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the problematic part is that no annotations are produced/ maintained for expanded syntax form of f, and y
< 1568684163 225515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It doesn't look that way.
< 1568684167 428113 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568684174 429100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even on the second call, even with -z now.
< 1568684178 641022 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fat stacks of cache
< 1568684181 659879 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568684183 261127 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :welp
< 1568684183 978610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least based on gdbing it up.
< 1568684208 270512 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably fine and no one should expect dynamically linked calls to be extremely efficient.
< 1568684220 156072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, they should stop dynamic linking, and only use it where necessary.
< 1568684240 955490 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :God Damn these Bampires
< 1568684301 49893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is reasonable, because no one expects Programming Language Theory types to generate efficient code.
< 1568684626 909646 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568684681 914613 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's definitely never writable, then I don't know what those extra prefix bytes could be for. Something something alignment performance?
< 1568684727 663129 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly I'd expect that explanation only between functions and branches, not in bytes that are actually executed.
< 1568684734 174322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be that the linker could want that extra space at link time, in some cases?
< 1568684779 26909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know how that would work.
< 1568684786 932726 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568684876 781109 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2d15:65a8:c6dd:6c2d QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568684900 211135 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is __tls_get_addr a function call, anyway?
< 1568685051 404956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1 echo '__thread long x; long foo(void) { return x; }' > /tmp/test.c && gcc -shared -fPIC -Os /tmp/test.c -S -o /dev/stdout
< 1568685053 975884 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:	.file	"test.c" \ 	.text \ 	.globl	foo \ 	.type	foo, @function \ foo: \ .LFB0: \ 	.cfi_startproc \ 	subq	$8, %rsp \ 	.cfi_def_cfa_offset 16 \ 	.byte	0x66 \ 	leaq	x@tlsgd(%rip), %rdi \ 	.value	0x6666 \ 	rex64 \ 	call	__tls_get_addr@PLT \ 	movq	(%rax), %rax \ 	popq	%rdx \ 	.cfi_def_cfa_offset 8 \ 	ret \ 	.cfi_endproc \ .LFE0: \ 	.size	foo, .-foo \ 	.globl	x \ 	.section	.tbss,"awT",@nobits \ 	.align 8 \ 	.type	x, @object \ 	.size	x, 8 \ x: \ 	.zero	8 \
< 1568685072 525948 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates that even with -Os so I doubt it's an instruction alignment thing.
< 1568685709 192791 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.fsfla.org/~lxoliva/writeups/TLS/RFC-TLSDESC-x86.txt might explain it. AFAICT it describes a proposal that looks different, but it also talks about the "existing ABI" which looks like that.
< 1568685790 987723 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, https://akkadia.org/drepper/tls.pdf
< 1568685797 842815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Page 22.
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< 1568686166 497445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, was just reading that.
< 1568686192 968795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The call instruction has to be preceeded by two data16 prefixes and one rex64 prefix to increase the total size of the whole sequence to 16 bytes."
< 1568686239 671648 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, Intel specifically says that sort of thing is not allowed.
< 1568686250 76985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of thing?
< 1568686313 447953 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, prefix abuse. Or it definitely says that about some classes of that sort of thing, not necessarily all of it.
< 1568686323 994260 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: pretty sure the reason is because old nephelem CPUs would fall to a decoding stall if you mucked with prefixes like that. (Source: using a nephelem CPU right now)
< 1568686382 499321 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Other use of the 66H prefix is reserved; such use may cause unpredictable behavior."
< 1568686416 600745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something about the REX prefix specifies that 0x66 is ignored when used with REX, though.
< 1568686582 999939 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568686585 352519 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568686597 550369 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code they show may actually play nice on nephalem
< 1568686600 230137 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :which suprises me
< 1568686623 11922 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's under 6 instrs in 16 bytes, perfect size for the nephalem decoder
< 1568686634 472140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, this "large code model" where your text segment is bigger than 2GB sounds like a nightmare.
< 1568686645 395190 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course..
< 1568686647 949629 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea
< 1568686653 222124 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :that code also does trigger the length changing prefix penalty
< 1568686653 800770 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you should be banned from using computers if that ever happens.
< 1568686685 194461 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably twice
< 1568686694 858519 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasting 12 cycles because of the two 66h prefixes
< 1568686724 187830 :tswett[m]!tswettmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-anexfrqatduauchm QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1568686752 414389 :xylochoron[m]!xylochoron@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wxljixnyxikikxjo QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568686752 789176 :wmww!wmwwmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nloldejaskuswpbg QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1568686757 537813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the reason for making that sequence 16 bytes?
< 1568686757 573956 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's a bit that says "if a 66H prefix is used with prefix (REX.W = 1), 66H is ignored". Although I think you could reasonably argue that's not meant to say you could put 66H in wherever.
< 1568686790 881312 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The document was too hard to read, I was thinking it has something to do with those special relocation types under specific circumstances needing that space.
< 1568686798 831215 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think I'll sleep instead, though.
< 1568686878 387552 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: seems to be the decoder width for a lot of modern CPUs
< 1568686910 66048 :moony!moony@hellomouse/dev/moony PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it helps with some decoding stalls to make it fit
< 1568687048 666241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure why this is a function call at all.
< 1568687085 848110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at the implementation in musl, it seems to claim this function uses things that are part of the public ABI?
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< 1568698302 661084 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( Upper and lower case  )
< 1568698854 959180 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: oh wow
< 1568699027 731312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think I've ever questioned the etymology of those phrases.)
< 1568699128 952600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: Now does that mean that shift-o (for example) can produce any of A, B, H or I?
< 1568701927 686115 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568702190 586995 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the etymology of shifting is separate.. :p
< 1568702218 483247 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, AFAIK at least
< 1568702751 462160 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: Yeah different (and more advanced) technology :)
< 1568702800 561813 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that was easy for me because I did play with a mechanical type writer as a kid.
< 1568703674 432105 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods
< 1568704213 776752 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I accidentally read about that a couple of months ago I can smugly pretend I always knew about upper and lower case
< 1568704431 893329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: please do
< 1568704464 619322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi olsner
< 1568704470 914054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :long time nolsner
< 1568704481 933332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? olsner
< 1568704484 517974 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines. His poetry's alphanumeric.
< 1568704579 711739 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, amend to "alphanumeric, both lower and upper case"
< 1568704586 753478 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not?
< 1568704702 233500 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568704719 968283 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2cbf:617e:9cf0:4f35 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568705310 237373 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568708024 532860 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568708567 665504 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568708920 649033 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568709709 205828 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568709791 921644 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'm getting old. apparently there are now people who haven't played with mechanical typewriters while they were young.
< 1568709819 314533 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I didn't get to play with a mechanical typewriter until I was 18
< 1568709958 763914 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I bet some of them have never even properly dialed a phone number
< 1568709976 472648 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's more complicated than that. the intel docs hides some quite complicated rules for what prefix you can use for what instructions, when it doesn't change the meaning, when it means what the prefix normally means, when it changes to a different instruction, and when the combination is reserved in which case the cpu can either raise an
< 1568709976 972666 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined instr exception or ignore the prefix,
< 1568709984 283438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and by "some" I mean "most")
< 1568710003 788809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or tuned a radio.
< 1568710037 387965 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they sometimes use reserved ignored combos to add new meanings to the prefixes, like how the rep prefixes can now mean a probably or improbably branch or a transactional memory prefix,
< 1568710066 901618 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the optimization manuals also say some things about what's slow and fast to decode, and this specifically differs between intel and amd a lot.
< 1568710073 965434 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, this conversation is making me feel young
< 1568710113 445501 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what? you can still tune radios, you just usually issue the commands digitally via buttons or fake dials that work all digital
< 1568710171 328496 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: it's just not the same without fading, and temperature/moisture sensitive capacitors.
< 1568710176 151767 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dialing a phone number is sort of a better example, but that's also a discriminator for younglings. I have made a phone call from a phone where the only option was to ask the number from an operator, because there was no dial.
< 1568710229 484954 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a few times during my life, because at home and basically everywhere in town we had dialer phones and automated phone switch stations, so I only had to call through an operator if I wanted a reverse cost call
< 1568710247 949354 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tbf I really grew up with frequency modulation which did away with most of the fading issues already)
< 1568710307 79180 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, but even on FM we get a lot of artifacts from it being analog, especially noticable if you are in a place with poor reception and the amount of noise changes depending on which direction you're holding the wire of the headphones that function as an antenna
< 1568710472 255025 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But mostly I'm interested in this because of outdated phrases that are still in use as idioms. Dialing a phone number, hanging up on somebody, tuning into a radio station (at least in the form of "tune in again tomorrow")...
< 1568710541 699893 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, now I'm not sure what the origin of "tune" is.
< 1568710556 735792 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, these days there are even messed up android phones where, after typing your PIN code on a touchscreen, if you touch the # button on the touchscreen, instead of accepting your entry, it erases the last digit from it. 
< 1568710565 127195 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand interfaces
< 1568710571 718302 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: adjusting a frequency is called tuning in music as well
< 1568710592 536020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that the origin?
< 1568710593 869842 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568710598 936091 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Variant of "tone"
< 1568710602 848496 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're two different kinds of frequencies.
< 1568710619 764205 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're tuning a resonance circuit to the right frequency.
< 1568710657 23741 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was used as "adjusting for optimum perfomance" as an extension of the music term
< 1568710675 905414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically using a variable capacitor (which stand out when you take apart an old radio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_capacitor )
< 1568710761 171757 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kids these days tune machine-learning algorithms instead of radios
< 1568710764 478635 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh the diagram on that page totally ignores the spiral nature of the blades in the rotor...
< 1568710914 70329 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It almost feels like I grew up in the previous century ;-)
< 1568711020 925461 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I couldn't sleep last night and I wrote a page trying to explain what I was talking about yesterday re semantics.
< 1568711027 886138 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think I can summarize it.
< 1568711036 340930 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how the radio hardware actually works, I only know it from a user's perspective
< 1568711105 193330 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :radios were reliable enough in my childhood that we no longer needed to service them, like replace vacuum tubes and capacitors (they didn't have vacuum tubes anymore), so I didn't have to know the details
< 1568711116 480047 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, maybe I can't summarize it
< 1568711161 561026 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: there was a reason why I wrote "take apart" rather than "repair" ;-)
< 1568711187 40903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantics?
< 1568711192 972126 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Never mind
< 1568711202 760605 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Good luck on your language.
< 1568711225 801858 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh.
< 1568711230 149186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: There was a mechanical side to this as well of course... tuning knobs were liable to break.
< 1568711238 351704 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell whether I said something mega-rude just now.
< 1568711317 492037 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, you didn't.
< 1568711346 233911 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just feel like there's something I'd like to communicate to you, but also feel like Sisyphus
< 1568711365 967745 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2cbf:617e:9cf0:4f35 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568711380 635547 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not quite Sisyphus.
< 1568711386 206429 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting my metaphors mixed up.
< 1568711398 134262 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feels like pushing water uphill, maybe that's it.
< 1568711427 634014 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm eating a yoghurt
< 1568711448 180589 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Are you eating a yoghurt?
< 1568711451 497344 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes
< 1568711457 73177 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did you know?
< 1568711457 563372 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I have to solve a horrible problem with time zones, and it's burning a hold in my head
< 1568711464 193539 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Then that seems to be no reason for concern.
< 1568711473 304132 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a horrible problem with time zones.
< 1568711478 672952 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: thank goodness
< 1568711484 30168 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that you're always here when I should be asleep?
< 1568711497 49813 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the thing to remember with time zones, is that there's four simultaneous days in a single rotation of the time cube
< 1568711501 897364 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Of course you shouldn't take my word for it. I'm just a stranger on the Internet.
< 1568711563 39901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're just a stranger on the Internet? Says who?
< 1568711579 516325 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A stranger on the Internet. Duh!
< 1568711602 935458 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I have met someone in person who claimed to be you
< 1568711626 501003 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Heh, that did happen.
< 1568711654 977446 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2cbf:617e:9cf0:4f35 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568711717 378473 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know int-e had so many impostors.
< 1568711737 43701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Oh did you meet one of those?
< 1568711747 495905 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what is it burning? a _hold_ or a _hole_?
< 1568711785 541723 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't, no.
< 1568711805 408810 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e has impostors? are they like evil twins?
< 1568711816 744040 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all.
< 1568711833 483978 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impostors don't have goatees to tell them apart from the original.
< 1568711849 422873 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impostors might also have different birthdays
< 1568711879 482153 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although not necessarily)
< 1568711881 260722 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can't tell them apart from the original because the original is evil too
< 1568711963 723186 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: twins can be born on different days (close to midnight)
< 1568712004 853093 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: correct. I told about how I want to make another similar language similar to Consumer Society, so that in one programs have properly nested braces and in the other they have properly matched brackets, and if you want to parse both, choosing according to which one is properly nested, the resulting union language has a syntax that is an
< 1568712005 363560 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :intrinsically ambiguous context-free language,
< 1568712019 671646 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If twins are born on different days they're called siblings.
< 1568712030 205821 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these too languages are mutually evil sibling languages of each other, but in fact Consumer Society is significantly younger than its sibling.
< 1568712058 462021 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, they're still twins if they were conceived close to each other but happen to be born across a day change
< 1568712091 269971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :""
< 1568712091 378894 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twins can be born in different decades, as happened as 2009 changed to 2010 and a pair of Florida twins came into the world on each side of the dividing line.
< 1568712106 283977 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if one twin is born during daylight savings and the other isn't
< 1568712120 866430 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, Firefox, do you put extra newlines at the beginning of a paste...
< 1568712122 625944 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Yes, they're still twins
< 1568712138 256083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/paste/selection/
< 1568712149 432832 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one delivered second is younger than the other one by an hour
< 1568712233 997002 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hmm it could be more interesting when switching back from DST... old twin born 2:59am, young twin 2:01am, same day.
< 1568712266 808052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whenever the switch happens exactly)
< 1568712300 728308 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes. and if you travel from america to europe, you become six hours older, but you count as three year older for drinking age purposes
< 1568712457 468218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: You could also cross a time zone border presumably.
< 1568712491 394810 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly temporal time zone borders are much sketchier than spacial ones.
< 1568712505 151470 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, with time zone borders it's possible for the older twin to have the later birthday
< 1568712569 941554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp twin
< 1568712571 983803 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the o
< 1568712572 671820 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's not practical though, because there are few places convenient for births that are split among multiple timezones
< 1568712617 868319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 grWp twin
< 1568712626 462377 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3: other side of the international date line. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ owrjan:owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. \ pico:pico is the useless twin of nano. \ sewerjan:sewerjan is oerjan's extremely poor twin. \
< 1568712677 533692 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568712691 808380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I think births en route to hospitals happen sometimes.
< 1568712692 635224 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: hmm, certain places in the US I think
< 1568712695 90368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.theepochtimes.com/supermom-delivers-her-own-twins-in-moving-car-while-giving-husband-directions-to-the-hospital_2817854.html
< 1568712713 974889 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you could cross a border while hurrying to a hospital.
< 1568712784 164819 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yeah, they have weird timezones, especially near semi-autonomous native american territories
< 1568712817 607987 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying that it's impossible, it's just usually inconvenient for the pregnant mother
< 1568712833 282031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birth in general is quite an inconvenient process, I hear.
< 1568712869 452232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1568712871 399922 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3:*:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the
< 1568712879 75342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm?
< 1568712889 355191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did that happen?
< 1568712894 663643 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 grWp twin
< 1568712897 542582 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3: other side of the international date line. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ owrjan:owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. \ pico:pico is the useless twin of nano. \ sewerjan:sewerjan is oerjan's extremely poor twin. \
< 1568712898 492530 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, because it usually comes with a tight deadline that's not announced early enough, so the mother and all the helpers don't get an early enough warning for when they have to prepare for birth. it's really rude I think. 
< 1568712899 516157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1568712901 313682 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3:*:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the
< 1568712904 997900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1568712908 404027 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3/3:twint-e:twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense. \ typoerjan:typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin. \ אrjan:אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms.
< 1568712916 395898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a bug.
< 1568712927 310680 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bug
< 1568712931 58310 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bug? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568712938 367078 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp feature
< 1568712940 653748 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ä:Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ degenerate:Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard. \ eyebrow:Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. \ intercal:INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ java:Java is a programming-language shaped collec
< 1568712981 116023 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/n
< 1568712982 862956 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :line="${1-$(cat /hackenv/tmp/spline)}"; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' /hackenv/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; sed -n "${line}{p;q}" /hackenv/tmp/spout; echo "$((line /hackenv/tmp/spline
< 1568712984 313232 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in normal jobs, when you have to stand by day and night to react quickly to emergencies, either they pay you lots of money for that, or at least people of the profession occasionally complain loudly why the government cheats them out of the money they are awed. but mothers usually don't get that sort of wage even if they have to stand by all the
< 1568712984 837963 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :time just in case there's an urgent birth.
< 1568713188 699341 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it.
< 1568713221 511119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` line=1; len="$(awk 'END{print NR}' /hackenv/tmp/spout)"; echo -n "$line/$len:"; echo "$((line It's a bit like a regular monowheel, except when you brake too hard, instead of you going around and around inside the wheel, the (1100lb) wheel rolls over you. \ 488)  "Do a sea monster while whatever." \ 223)  $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/'     Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE  <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. \ 215)  !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000   probably will suck   Scor
< 1568714089 156636 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/2
< 1568714090 782203 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\` "$@" |& sport 2
< 1568714092 738616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n
< 1568714094 601557 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:561)  It's a bit like a regular monowheel, except when you brake too hard, instead of you going around and around inside the wheel, the (1100lb) wheel rolls over you. \ 488)  "Do a sea monster while whatever." \ 223)  $ perl -e '/? <-- HERE/'     Quantifier follows nothing in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/? <-- HERE  <-- HERE/ at -e line 1. \ 215)  !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000   probably will suck   Scor
< 1568714101 66057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, it doesn't even go to the second page.
< 1568714115 241956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or rather it wraps around.)
< 1568714116 766421 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/5
< 1568714118 497477 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmd="${1-quote}"; \`^ 5 "$cmd"
< 1568714128 842133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/`^
< 1568714130 511661 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[[ $# == 2 ]] || { echo "Usage: $0 n cmd" >&2; exit 2; }; for ((i=0; i < $1; i++)); do \` "$2"; done | sport
< 1568714140 819038 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, that may be a thing.
< 1568714149 274247 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writes to tmp/ should normally not be executed twice.
< 1568714163 764143 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way the logic goes, if the repository is clean after the command ran once, that's it.
< 1568714169 529820 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, it only executes twice if it detects a write.
< 1568714203 610220 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, there's actually a race condition there, in that a concurrent command may make a non-write operation also run twice. Normally that's benign, but with tmp/ it might cause issues. It's going to be pretty rare though.
< 1568714217 289726 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Err, sorry. I didn't think that through.
< 1568714224 459405 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess is there's something in the working directory that it can't commit for whatever reason, so it permanently thinks the repository is dirty.
< 1568714230 37869 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have a look.
< 1568714246 224089 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` hg status
< 1568714263 217971 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGYj6LpQgFKM: Permission denied \ o6M9ot4UJDYs: Permission denied
< 1568714268 860167 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you make it give you logs so you can exclude concurrent commands in private message?
< 1568714292 977211 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny file names
< 1568714300 97149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -l EGYj6LpQgFKM
< 1568714302 14496 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access 'EGYj6LpQgFKM/s': Permission denied \ total 0 \ d????????? ? ? ? ?            ? s
< 1568714303 773732 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :althoguh we should see something in the hg log if that happens usually, but perhaps not if the command is particularly sneaky and gives no changes to the versioned part the second time or smoething
< 1568714311 544572 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sorry, part of that was me
< 1568714315 555187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls
< 1568714316 182710 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` ls -aF
< 1568714318 161324 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​./ \ ../ \ .hg/ \ .hg_archival.txt \ .hgignore \ EGYj6LpQgFKM/ \ bin/ \ canary \ emoticons/ \ esobible/ \ etc/ \ evil/ \ f| \ factor/ \ good/ \ hw/ \ ibin/ \ interps/ \ izash.c \ karma \ le/ \ lib/ \ misle/ \ o6M9ot4UJDYs/ \ paste/ \ ply-3.8/ \ quines/ \ quinor/ \ quotes \ share/ \ src/ \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry/ \ tmp/ \ wisdom/
< 1568714319 187644 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ canary \ EGYj6LpQgFKM \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ o6M9ot4UJDYs \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom
< 1568714325 919917 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mistakenl created some files to hackenv rather than tmp
< 1568714334 835172 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` rmdir -v EGYj6* o6M9o
< 1568714336 346818 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rmdir: failed to remove 'EGYj6LpQgFKM': Directory not empty \ rmdir: failed to remove 'o6M9o': No such file or directory \ rmdir: removing directory, 'EGYj6LpQgFKM' \ rmdir: removing directory, 'o6M9o'
< 1568714343 590766 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls -ld EGYj6LpQgFKM
< 1568714344 810513 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` rmdir -vp EGYj6*/s o6M9o*/s
< 1568714345 447621 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'ls --help' for more information.
< 1568714346 802927 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rmdir: failed to remove 'EGYj6*/s': No such file or directory \ rmdir: failed to remove 'o6M9o*/s': No such file or directory \ rmdir: removing directory, 'EGYj6*/s' \ rmdir: removing directory, 'o6M9o*/s'
< 1568714349 218442 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -ld EGYj6LpQgFKM
< 1568714351 346328 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :drw-r-xr-x 3 1000 1000 4096 Sep 16 14:43 EGYj6LpQgFKM
< 1568714359 870498 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no x for user, great
< 1568714366 712595 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` find EGYj6* o6M9o*
< 1568714367 560076 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :find: 'EGYj6*': No such file or directory \ find: 'o6M9o*': No such file or directory
< 1568714367 837320 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cleaned them up from the outside.
< 1568714384 536212 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, I was trying to test something about permissions when ais523 talked about them
< 1568714386 29926 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568714391 254825 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have done it in tmp but I messed up
< 1568714398 484833 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then didn't notice that I didn't revert them properly
< 1568714405 151592 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check the hg log if there's any other remain
< 1568714512 730792 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the...
< 1568714517 518086 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I don't think it's a huge deal really... it only seems that way because it manifested in this terribly obscure way.
< 1568714520 422875 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you just rewrite version history?
< 1568714533 508487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, those never got committed.
< 1568714537 753835 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the no-x thing.
< 1568714543 916985 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just stuck around in the work directory.
< 1568714551 942654 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, but I did know that I messed up and apparently didn't pay enough attention to clean them up
< 1568714562 352131 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: who, hackeso does that? interesting
< 1568714583 223110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :REX has WRXB bits
< 1568714597 514070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly WRX should stand for write read execute, but what should B stand for?
< 1568714615 131209 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bullying rights?
< 1568714616 57278 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568714711 132863 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-08.html#lbV
< 1568714734 701536 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "base" since it extends the base register for modr/m or sib?
< 1568714751 982402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Yes, I know what they actually stand for.
< 1568714758 79961 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cleanup logic is to run "hg status -rumad", remove anything mentioned in the output, then run "hg up -C" to get back to a clean state. But apparently hg will just print warnings into stderr about files/directories it can't access and ignore them otherwise, so they never get either committed or cleaned.
< 1568714765 81377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm guessing from "This 1-bit value is an 'inverted' extension to the MODRM.rm field or the SIB.base field.")
< 1568714766 983398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You told me the other day, and also it became clear once I implemented addressing modes.)
< 1568714803 709848 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568714805 217834 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I guess that sort of makes sense for normal version control
< 1568714812 444269 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just strange in hackeso's context
< 1568714816 993247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, R extends the "reg" register (or the register in the opcode), X extends the index registers, and B extends the base register.
< 1568714824 608551 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: can you remind me why there are two phases in the first place?
< 1568714837 439319 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: To allow commands that don't write run concurrently.
< 1568714847 737627 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568714860 471352 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It obtains an exclusive lock only for the second phase.)
< 1568714882 505535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` hg status -rumad
< 1568714891 889730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH, it's probably more trouble than it's worth, but that's the way it was written and anyway it's kind of an #esoteric thing.
< 1568714896 753980 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568714906 242973 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it handle the newline-in-filename thing I was talking about a while ago?
< 1568714906 483637 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. it's much better than in jevabot, where if you run two commands in the same context simultaneously, then the changes of one that finishes first will be ignored, even if the second one doesn't write anything
< 1568714908 965519 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: makes me wonder whether it would be worthwhile to detect whether there was an intervening command at all
< 1568714922 643848 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and jevalbot doesn't currently offer any way to override this
< 1568714933 635806 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what newline-in-filename thing?
< 1568714953 836401 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it does normally try to detect that
< 1568714959 816555 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so I think
< 1568714972 578646 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: apparently not
< 1568715044 668802 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: something seems wrong in the logic or the environment, because like fizzie said, it shouldn't rerun a command that edits tmp only
< 1568715068 927801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: But of course that's not entirely trivial either, to say the least.
< 1568715070 192772 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: That was the effect of those non-accessible directories, it likely isn't doing that any more.
< 1568715122 205889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: well, the detection uses  hg status, and assumes that this can recognize its own pristine state.
< 1568715138 337577 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: http://esolangs.org/logs/2014-11.html#lX6d
< 1568715146 878093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably the real problem here is that resetting to a pristine state results in a working directory that doesn't match the repo contents.
< 1568715166 995624 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shaventions
< 1568715168 255281 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet.
< 1568715176 6185 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :tmp/ was such a good shavention
< 1568715187 775411 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think newlines are probably a problem. I don't think there's an equivalent for -0 for the status output.
< 1568715189 593407 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have funventions?
< 1568715209 636184 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine: Without tmp we wouldn't `1 or any of that.
< 1568715219 648919 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"funiragvbaf"
< 1568715229 905240 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Yeah, I'd really like a hg option to just "restore the working directory exactly as it was, including the removal of untracked files". There's a way to do that in git, I couldn't discover a way to do it in hg.
< 1568715235 551232 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` rot13 tanebvention
< 1568715236 748961 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnaroiragvba
< 1568715255 696816 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, maybe the no-permission files were the ones that made hackeso think that there were changes in the versioneed part
< 1568715259 466185 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Anyway, it would probably still fail for things like "no permission for the user" even if it did exist.)
< 1568715263 939714 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: Yes, that's not a "maybe".
< 1568715274 311751 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: they were
< 1568715277 569434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You could require write commands to run without tmp/
< 1568715281 443277 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` mkdir /hackenv/tmp/-BE8SJn_Dnja
< 1568715282 2793 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568715283 40475 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(By moving tmp/ out temporarily.)
< 1568715292 683491 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` mkdir -v /hackenv/tmp/X81G5u_N85_r
< 1568715293 290585 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkdir: created directory '/hackenv/tmp/X81G5u_N85_r'
< 1568715296 732213 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that was the problem
< 1568715299 393595 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it behaves sane
< 1568715329 545322 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like the `mv tmp/foo . bug, though.
< 1568715354 395241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice to keep that one to trip up unsuspecting people who think computers don't hate them for some reason.
< 1568715367 384470 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hg status accepts a template too, with the -T argument
< 1568715367 986312 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they don't
< 1568715388 46529 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we're just making software too complex for our own good
< 1568715396 160860 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with that!
< 1568715400 632742 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So complexity is the real enemy, not computers.
< 1568715417 381829 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Huh, there *is* a -0 option for 'hg status'.
< 1568715440 987961 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can make it use that and split on '\0' instead of '\n', and then it'll work on files with newlines in them.
< 1568715448 634153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The logs I linked to point it out.
< 1568715463 725446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that change never happened?
< 1568715494 893115 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I couldn't find the relevant bit in there, you linked to the gigantic monthly logs and the "scroll to anchor" isn't working somehow.
< 1568715500 837094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.
< 1568715519 77003 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T '{rev}:{join(files,"\0,")}\0;' | tr \\0 % # joins files within a revision with "\0," and revisions with "\0;"
< 1568715520 424530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I download the monthly logs to grep through, so I didn't have the file name for the daily logs.
< 1568715521 527795 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11941:bin/beat%;11940:bin/beat%;11939:bin/beat%;11938:share/whatis%;11937:bin/beat%;11936:bin/beat%;11935:bin/beat%;11934:bin/beat%;11933:bin/beat%;11932:bin/beat%;11931:share/whatis%;11930:share/whatis%;11929:share/whatis%;11928:share/whatis%;11927:bin/as-encoding%;11926:bin/as-encoding%;11925:wisdom/password%;11924:wisdom/can't%;11923:wisdom/can't%;11922:wisdom/can't%;11921:wisdom/can't%;11920:wisdom/can't%;11919:wisdom/can't%;11918:wisdom/can't%;11917:w
< 1568715563 864521 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why do you care about the specific output of hg status anyway?
< 1568715643 948837 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I couldn't figure out a command to restore the working directory to a state matching the repository without manually removing files.
< 1568715653 20368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hg up -C" definitely doesn't do it.
< 1568715657 316555 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: crazy thought... would switching to git storage + hg-git do the trick?
< 1568715667 684959 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: eww
< 1568715684 717043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could just migrate the repository to git altogether. Even Bitbucket has stopped supporting Mercurial.
< 1568715687 432794 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and using git for cleanup)
< 1568715691 565695 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look at the hg manual
< 1568715700 562366 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that would be worse
< 1568715723 734708 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the point of hg-git would be to keep all the existing hg magic working)
< 1568715749 420226 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I don't know whether it's up to the task)
< 1568715750 989187 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it'd be a nice exercise to update all the tooling.
< 1568715770 293226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the 'h's in the names would become obsolete then.
< 1568715780 414908 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, but... the git part would be harder to use
< 1568715799 937465 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :git is much easier to use than hg
< 1568715816 756326 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg might be better in some technical ways
< 1568715818 917923 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: not for when you have strange untrusted data like filenames with newlines
< 1568715825 97081 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wait didn't you advocate mercurial not too long ago?
< 1568715828 454741 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably not in the normal case either
< 1568715838 884790 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, I think that was ais523
< 1568715861 121077 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think it's likely to be better?
< 1568715874 954798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the UI is much more confusing than git's.
< 1568715890 526601 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree
< 1568715899 839716 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's a matter of first exposure, largely
< 1568715914 243072 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I'm just making a baseless assertion here, like people always make about hg.
< 1568715925 471434 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket "Git adoption has grown over the years to become the default system" "almost 90% of developers use Git, while Mercurial is the least popular version control system with only about 3% developer adoption" "the percentage of new Bitbucket users choosing Mercurial has fallen to less than 1%"
< 1568715929 689476 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568715943 69458 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got to follow the trends here.
< 1568715966 779767 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The git model is very simple and I can always use a few commands to get it to do what I want.
< 1568715992 158398 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you don't want interesting enough things then
< 1568716060 500800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you recommend wanting?
< 1568716061 585262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mercurial is better... a) for hosting over dumb http and b) if you're confused about having a staging area between the working directory and the repo.
< 1568716099 7958 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: try manipulating git repositories that pull data from a server repository into which other people commit and tag and history-edit in stupid ways
< 1568716099 603885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any of these systems are that great.
< 1568716101 375448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I've been told Mercurial is also better for extensibility.
< 1568716140 148927 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: maybe. it's mostly python with some bits of C rather than mostly C with some bits of Perl
< 1568716145 190260 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including bad filenames, inconsistent line endings, changing whitespace in existing source files extensively even when they don't modify the file, 
< 1568716150 379209 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568716152 449334 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: In particular, Google's DVCS of choice is Mercurial with a lot of extra oddness, and AIUI the decision was primarily motivated by Git not having any sort of API to do the odd parts.
< 1568716225 368418 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shchaf: also, do you happen to know how to ask git to remove directories from the working copy that it couldn't commit because of lack of permissions?
< 1568716236 284855 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :extensibility doesn't come up so much in day to day usage :P
< 1568716254 835220 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and how to make git use a .git outside hackenv so that hackenv commands can't directly write it?
< 1568716267 131958 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: GIT_DIR
< 1568716289 34454 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: where is that documented?
< 1568716293 970495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think Facebook made the same decision for the same reason.
< 1568716308 130201 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: but it's a non-issue, I think? the umlbox can mount subdirectories read-only.
< 1568716314 217697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I'm talking about non-esoteric uses so this is all irrelevant.
< 1568716320 284467 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hmm, that might make sense
< 1568716327 967293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -ld .hg
< 1568716330 852154 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :drwxr-xr-x 5 1000 1000 4096 Sep 17 09:59 .hg
< 1568716333 216825 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I don't currently have .hg outside hackenv either.
< 1568716335 89879 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: it's documented in the git-init man
< 1568716338 849645 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but... wasn't the whole point the esoteric uses in hackeso?
< 1568716365 863353 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` touch .hg/doesnotwork
< 1568716366 754561 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch: cannot touch '.hg/doesnotwork': Read-only file system
< 1568716368 862880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm making a general claim.
< 1568716380 628562 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One big advantage of git is that it's written in C.
< 1568716389 915440 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...But a big disadvantage is that big parts of it are written in sh.
< 1568716437 473087 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, Taneb: thanks
< 1568716472 846774 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: I actually use GIT_DIR quite a bit because I can never remember --bare ;-)
< 1568716492 578514 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: all of subversion is written in C
< 1568716508 550429 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Subversion is a pretty good version control system.
< 1568716519 923602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I meant git over hg above, though.)
< 1568716545 366390 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main drawback of subversion is that it's a very bad distributed vcs right now, and that's hard to fix, but that problem doesn't come up too much for HackEso
< 1568716565 611113 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, keeping the existing mercurial solution for HackE*o is probably for the best
< 1568716644 310036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to sleep.
< 1568716681 999180 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these spams that advertise services to send bulk spam are sort of the most honest spam there is, because they at least prove that they can offer such services
< 1568716707 717350 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the other spam, which are usually about outright scams and state or promise something that they can't provide
< 1568716739 453473 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that the bulk mailers have to be totally honest of course, they can still scam you and underperform and overcharge you
< 1568716749 460030 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just steal the money
< 1568716756 21940 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they at least offer a service that they can do
< 1568716835 951701 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of this mess would be solved by sanitizing permissions of directories (making sure they're u+rx)?
< 1568716880 747233 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: eh, next you'll want to disallow symlinks and pipes and socket files from hackenv?
< 1568716889 370644 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even force regular files to readable?
< 1568716937 99920 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? pipe
< 1568716938 318416 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not a pipe.
< 1568717457 625189 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you'll even suggest that we shouldn't have a symlink to /proc/self/args in wisdom?
< 1568717614 797121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care. fifos are annoying because they break grep
< 1568717624 623053 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; cd wisdom; find -type l -printf "%p > %l\n"
< 1568717625 324444 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​./СССР > ссср \ ./the usual suspect > usual suspect \ ./perpetuum mobile > perpetual motion machine \ ./r.i.p. > rip \ ./☆ > * \ ./h4gb4rd > hagb4rd \ ./issue > .doorstop \ ./the reals > real \ ./off by two error > off by two \ ./wolfram > stephen wolfram
< 1568717628 525269 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that symlink doesn't do that
< 1568717632 964473 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp grep
< 1568717634 84876 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568717638 463230 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp wisdom
< 1568717639 490602 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​?:? is wisdom \ america:This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice. \ bimonthly:The word "bimonthly" has at least two meanings, although this wisdom only gives about half of one. No matter which expert you follow, you're 50% likely to misinterpret it, or doubly so, depending on the phase of the moon. \ busy beaver growth:No one can compute the length of a wisdom entry sufficient to explain busy beaver growth. \ claustrophobia:Clau
< 1568718314 16749 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It might help. Currently I sanitize only the .hg and .hgignore permissions.
< 1568718530 892885 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I thought about using the purge extension instead of the status parsing + remove approach, but I suspect it would not work any better w.r.t. bizarre permissions. Presumably it would be inherently robust against odd file names though.
< 1568719275 701362 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there operators + and * on rings such that the set of rings forms a ring
< 1568719329 735287 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so
< 1568719387 653203 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such that *some* set of rings forms a ring, maybe?
< 1568719436 21232 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every ring in such a set would need to have an inverse
< 1568719437 588677 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1568719457 917722 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is very difficult for me to think about, but it is entertaining.
< 1568719613 835987 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other week I tried to think about ZF¬C and the properties of a vector that lacks a basis
< 1568719657 305723 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: this is not what you want... but technically all you need is a ring of the right cardinality
< 1568719786 90980 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ring
< 1568719787 152533 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
< 1568719874 164109 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was thinking maybe you could do something trivialish with two boolean rings
< 1568719883 941095 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well anywan
< 1568719894 634989 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back to timezones, brain!
< 1568720163 519293 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568720288 770989 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I once saw a stackexchange answer listing the bizarre implications of having Axiom of Choice next to the bizarre implications of *not* having Axiom of Choice... but I can't find it again now :/
< 1568720544 741713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might've been this one, but I thought it was longer: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1771052/soft-question-why-does-the-axiom-of-choice-lead-to-the-weirdest-constructions
> 1568725160 154579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66207&oldid=59504 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+3) 10
> 1568725309 747245 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66208&oldid=66207 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+76) 10
> 1568725391 220697 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66209&oldid=66208 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+37) 10
< 1568726663 382698 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? banach-tarski # https://www.xkcd.com/804/
< 1568726664 414373 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :banach-tarski # https://www.xkcd.com/804/? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568726669 940215 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568726926 214457 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think they understand comments
< 1568727016 579942 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; d=$(date +@%s); export TZ; for TZ in UTC Europe/Paris Europe/London America/New_York America/Los_Angeles; do date -d "$d" +"%Y-%m-%d %H:%M %z %Z"; done # timezones like this?
< 1568727019 134314 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-17 13:30 +0000 UTC \ 2019-09-17 15:30 +0200 CEST \ 2019-09-17 14:30 +0100 BST \ 2019-09-17 09:30 -0400 EDT \ 2019-09-17 06:30 -0700 PDT
< 1568727021 111832 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` \? banach-tarski # https://www.xkcd.com/804/
< 1568727024 152426 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
< 1568727031 596510 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that
< 1568727097 543058 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the timezone database (or part of it) is installed, even if very few locales are
< 1568728535 250657 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-forbidden-cave/
< 1568728535 726662 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-forbidden-cave/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
< 1568728772 555052 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568729246 465138 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My head hurts.+00:00
< 1568729560 731055 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Quit: Quittin'.
< 1568729632 950344 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568729908 675347 :ArthurStrong!~ArthurStr@slow.wreckage.volia.net QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568730100 979740 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out
< 1568730121 597182 :shikhin!~shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568730250 243572 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robin should probably be split into an esolang and a non-esolang, but it's not entirely clear where I should draw the line.
< 1568730273 636996 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macros as fundamental + strange environment tricks based on that -> esolang.
< 1568730345 522756 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: wait, if you remove that, then what remains that's interesting and unique as a non-esolang?
< 1568730540 388875 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Referentially transparent homoiconic language with a reactive framework.  Is that not interesting and unique enough?
< 1568730571 619623 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. couldn't you just use a reactive frameword in scheme or something?
< 1568730589 352506 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what does the referentially transparent part mean?
< 1568730612 904490 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1568730765 81317 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I felt like I could successfully submit a SRFI for "immutable scheme" I'd probably do that instead.
< 1568730813 985868 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever
< 1568731984 561465 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/wolfgangj/bone-lisp#readme <-- That is virtually the only other language with immutable data and homoiconic syntax that I've found.
< 1568732019 462270 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could port the reactive framework to it; in some ways it would be a good fit
< 1568733417 461823 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds
< 1568733620 53281 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568733914 428367 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568734681 455988 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Screen
< 1568734687 978456 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Screen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568734823 221965 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568735960 177413 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1568737989 359312 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568738152 99263 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568738161 422193 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568739348 819460 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568739646 794723 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Alalalize 5*  10New user account
< 1568740064 969957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568740369 869847 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568741172 420699 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568741185 891784 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568741192 75197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like the time format bug that I mentioned yesterday is not in libc's strftime function. it's in coreutils's reimplementation of strftime.
< 1568741203 580865 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's good to know.
< 1568741813 781222 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568742422 569116 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568742448 518567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568743321 49385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.
< 1568743351 249006 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :These seem both equally broken to me: http://ix.io/1VAl
< 1568743375 515662 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm sure the latter is using the libc's strftime.
< 1568743395 845790 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless this was a different bug you were talking about.)
< 1568743411 205860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568743826 590301 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568743888 895684 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(set -e; export LC_ALL=hu_HU.utf8; gcc -Wall -O -o a.out -x c - <<<$'#include\n#include\n#include\n''int main(void) { char o[100] = {0}; setlocale(LC_ALL, ""); struct tm b = {0}; time_t t = 1570230000; gmtime_r(&t, &b); strftime(o, 100, "%^B", &b); printf("%s\n", o); return 0; }'; ./a.out )
< 1568743893 905197 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKTóBER
< 1568743901 881024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me install the fi_FI.utf-8 locale
< 1568743930 705992 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right this seems broken, so there's something wrong in my tests
< 1568743979 554213 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I misread my previous tests
< 1568743984 969511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :those printed OKTóBER too
< 1568743986 192683 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn
< 1568743994 209157 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I can't reproduce them or something
< 1568743995 985819 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused
< 1568744022 325021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1568744025 938713 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for checking then
< 1568744055 895523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see what the libc documentation actually says about this, and check their bug tracker where there's probably a ticket for that and they argue that this is completely correct behavior
< 1568744240 490576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey look
< 1568744254 471036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does uppercase correctly for the hu_HU.iso88592 locale
< 1568744326 230556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case it prints OKTÓBER only the Ó is encoded in iso-8859-2 as a \xD3 as you'd expect
< 1568744335 659559 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can uppercase single-byte stuff
< 1568744360 324769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't locales fun? this is why we don't use them these days, and just use libraries that do stuff like this without relying on locales
< 1568745757 900143 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It's also correct for fi_FI.ISO-8859-1.
< 1568745772 340799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good
< 1568745787 533605 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` locale -a
< 1568745788 498744 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :C \ C.UTF-8 \ POSIX \ en_GB.utf8 \ en_NZ.utf8 \ en_US.utf8
< 1568745901 180976 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I probably added en_GB in addition to en_NZ and en_US when migrating to HackEso, to honor the fact that it's physically in the UK.
< 1568746541 529846 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ouuychlmeucopvpv JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568747181 267523 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568747481 123198 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568747497 206859 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people in usa complain that college is experensive
< 1568747517 818331 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't they study online or in mexico?
> 1568747557 891304 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66210&oldid=65984 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+106) 10/* Codd */
< 1568747566 710358 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*expensive
< 1568747590 518790 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who says they don't?
< 1568747607 707013 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :their complain
< 1568747611 606515 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :complains
< 1568747616 961572 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that a php question?
< 1568747619 432223 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( "why did you study online or in mexico?" )
< 1568747654 19661 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they complain, and then go online to Mexico to study.
< 1568747654 527723 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am watching a program about some free uni that started to charge fees and students claim their are entitled to free edu
< 1568747663 786043 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect the former may be a real issue, if you study full time.
< 1568747684 670465 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e as far as person is smart he is more likely to be hired if he saved money on collegde
< 1568747689 938694 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :colledge
< 1568747697 947450 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it shows he she is smart
< 1568747700 37634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :college
< 1568747709 986336 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet many spend 100K on gender study ? :D
< 1568747738 533246 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been in USA for some time and I suspect IQ drop is real
< 1568747765 906673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the impression you don't care about what anyone says here, and you just want to complain.
< 1568747776 906546 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a solution
< 1568747778 519764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recommend complaining online, or in Mexico.
< 1568747793 611203 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems some standord professors made their own online unis
< 1568747795 104171 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're mostly programming people, but let's ask the one foremost expert of politics in our channel
< 1568747811 505108 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun	!
< 1568747811 881237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what do you think about the higher education system in the USA?
< 1568747811 948553 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i see,
< 1568747827 181074 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style
< 1568747827 257667 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1568747828 747956 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, how did that... ah I won't even ask.
< 1568747840 238324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches
< 1568747840 283858 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
< 1568747854 877576 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming requires logic and paying 100K for a college indicated IQ drop
< 1568747859 116960 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1568747868 859092 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you have kids?
< 1568747879 798449 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you beat them up when they mention college loan?
< 1568747906 266971 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, fungot, fungot
< 1568747907 306667 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: claiming only that they have been since, much employed by that political school, is an ancient story of a speech made in one parliament has been growing to by a progressive increase of improvement, brought in a bill to prevent judges from entering those lists in which lord ellenborough is a perfect man, if able, will take from the rest of mankind in all ages a chief cause of the house, that, in losing her american coloni
< 1568747922 448730 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so talking about college loan is why fungot is beating his children?
< 1568747923 91140 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: prior, matthew, his intimacy with bishop atterbury. appears as a witness in favour of wit; he tolerated even tameness for the sake of example they should be deluded, and should occasionally fnord to the institution to learn and to know that a man has not received such an education as enables him to understand that it was not merely a great writer, will, for a long time without pay, or at least a tinge of toryism. he li
< 1568747930 232179 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot IQ drop usa
< 1568747930 448969 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: " when will rulers learn that, where we used to play it in this house, in the county. what is to be observed, or whether it shall be the vicegerent and with what portion of the american slave, the pride of man?
< 1568747934 370254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome fungot
< 1568747934 674089 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: by fnord cleveland was not a very material difference in the main but three, which i consider excellent advice: and you give us to- night again, so amiable is our nature, and in some of its members is large, than cyrus, in the meantime, in spite of the opposition met for the purpose of greatness, which it is designed for the great honour which you have presented me, shall never break the tie of consanguinity between us a
< 1568747935 862380 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​13fungot: 04Welcome 07to 08the 09international 02hub 06for 13esoteric 04programming 07language 08design 09and 02deployment! 06For 13more 04information, 07check 08out 09our 02wiki: 06. 13(For 04the 07other 08kind 09of 02esoterica, 06try 13#esoteric 04on 07EFnet 08or 09DALnet.)
< 1568747961 53363 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot cocof
< 1568747961 170544 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: first i thought i'd go and see. then i will proceed in my account of the great tory prelate were, as they are now taking the surest way to prevent a total rupture."
< 1568747967 870560 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :see
< 1568747980 846921 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am surest way to prevent a total rupture
< 1568747984 857576 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: our expert says that "the institution to learn and to know that a man has not received such an education as enables him to understand that it was not merely a great writer, will, for a long time without pay"
< 1568747985 522677 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :first kids must be beaten
< 1568748031 6406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is garfield without garfield still ongoing?
< 1568748039 989902 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm s/without/minus/
< 1568748045 732096 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commonsense.com
< 1568748046 531414 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
> 1568748046 692209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fishing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66211&oldid=52777 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+66) 10/* Programs */
< 1568748092 588383 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what do you make of the present situation?
< 1568748092 680999 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: but the fact is, that malignant disposition to which this building is devoted, of its brilliant and inspiring history, of which it is designed. a man, he seemed to be united with each other, but the influence was very broad in effect.
< 1568748148 470087 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes malignant
< 1568748152 226383 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :snowflakes
< 1568748164 427233 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need physical work forced
< 1568748167 483515 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to collect oranges
> 1568748197 781998 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66212&oldid=65925 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+1004) 10Yare yare daze
< 1568748261 473248 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pelts cocof with oranges
< 1568748284 595973 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` \? "gene ray" | sed s/.*god..//
< 1568748285 887860 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Academians are teaching - pseudocience. Worshipping a Word God will destroy the USA.
< 1568748310 498473 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to quote our other expert
< 1568748323 275726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked another expert: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/talk_to_transformer.png
< 1568748376 563369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://66.media.tumblr.com/2b8b62a7f4390548136987acf3943a5f/tumblr_nzs9xeDR3r1qz8z2ro1_500.png is every garfield strip, in a nutshell.
< 1568748410 931123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: has to refer to Prime, because he's the most popular transformer so that's what sells everything
< 1568748423 550496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though he's totally irrelevant to this question
< 1568748585 981993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about transformers.
< 1568748593 94952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Megatron is also one?
< 1568748617 519371 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? transformer
< 1568748620 210357 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
< 1568748648 638725 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. I think a Megatron is either an angel or a unit of measure
< 1568748752 85996 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
> 1568749070 110761 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ZOWIE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66213&oldid=43704 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+237) 10My bad
< 1568749559 630884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w
< 1568749565 655957 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:violation//Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family. \ nilfisk//Nilfisk is the fish of choice for the connoiseuring spämmer. \ pikachu//Pikachu is a universal quantifier for Chu spaces. \ clever//Being clever is different from being wise, but they are indistinguishable in sufficiently large quantities. \ forth//Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
< 1568750028 974191 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a mandatory IQ test before applying for a 
< 1568750035 670211 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who here have kids?
< 1568750098 704881 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody here has kids, but some of us have evil twins or reincarnations
< 1568750130 304498 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm my own grandpa
< 1568750135 26679 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fungot is my grandma
< 1568750135 296368 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: but, low as was the polished orator or writer, but as to me, and one day when we felt that we must not be understood as saying that there are two kinds of objects of desire; those which give mere bodily pleasure, and pain, without fnord passionate fnord furious fnord really proofs of the public.
< 1568750157 680768 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot is so literary
< 1568750157 879245 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: bible, the fnord, which, fnord as i should speak as i now try to prevent others from oppressing them, as a means of ensuring fnord the consequence of triennial corruption, triennial drunkenness, triennial idleness, triennial law-suits, litigations, prosecutions, triennial phrensy, of society dissolved, industry interrupted, ruined; of those personal hatreds that will never be able to say to our friend and guest 
< 1568750187 204447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kmc
< 1568750188 579458 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013.
< 1568750264 526703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kmc
< 1568750265 846656 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. She is her own grandpa.
< 1568750273 747366 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1568750285 299496 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa
< 1568750290 513089 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Editing in /msg?
< 1568750290 890479 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that entry was too bare. now it has something informative and specific in it.
< 1568750295 522353 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty b_jonas 
< 1568750308 682708 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'?usa education now
< 1568750315 646811 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :'? usa education now
< 1568750326 497 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? usa education now
< 1568750327 265418 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :usa education now? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568750334 31198 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1568750346 566182 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? usa needs kids beating
< 1568750347 855927 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :usa needs kids beating? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568750351 693866 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes
< 1568750364 657990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe lay it off with the kids beating thing?
< 1568750374 293904 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i https://twitter.com/capsule_169/status/993963705791545344
< 1568750385 795459 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION beats cocof with the ugly stick
< 1568750402 481131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: didn't heinlein write that story
< 1568750403 934633 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called a mapole
< 1568750405 411947 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is a fail student?
< 1568750410 1831 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha
< 1568750416 893194 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon professors can kick students
< 1568750422 482174 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah and like a billion people reply with that in the comments
< 1568750425 319425 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ask security to drag them out
< 1568750425 909300 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't read it, though
< 1568750436 999480 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i'm the bazillionth and one
< 1568750438 365953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: he rewrote it, but it's an ancient Sumerian tale originally
< 1568750439 195418 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cocof: no, I was a success in college, I'm a failure at everything *subsequent*
< 1568750449 332586 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably i get a prize for being the bazillionth and one visitor to your website
< 1568750469 825730 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what prize would you like?
< 1568750478 397796 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently in stock: hugs, coffee cake
< 1568750491 930294 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no imaginary internet points?
< 1568750496 862813 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1568750513 361030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: are you suggesting that there's a life after college
< 1568750520 29347 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no internet points for me
< 1568750530 136263 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'll sign up for one hugs and one coffee cake
< 1568750555 854753 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hooray
< 1568750555 961821 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you win a MASSIVE YACHT.
< 1568750558 366224 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hugs*
< 1568750561 271497 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*coffee cake*
< 1568750593 969668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.xkcd.com/570/
< 1568750628 6016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :those look a lot like internet points
< 1568750642 686793 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdi6E-qzS1c
< 1568750769 836277 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can make 100 cups of coffee\
< 1568750775 11407 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :got 2 jars :D
< 1568750783 967956 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2lts of milk
< 1568751069 180642 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants an e cup?
< 1568751111 474547 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHcr6R8nbZA
> 1568751126 272773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mailman14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66214 5* 03Xanman12321 5* (+1451) 10Created page with " This language is about mail; the program runs until all houses have been delivered to. It was created by User:Xanman12321 and User:Andrew3335 in 2019, based on a Google Docs..."
> 1568751402 77662 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mailman14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66215&oldid=66214 5* 03Xanman12321 5* (+109) 10
> 1568751809 339071 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mailman14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66216&oldid=66215 5* 03Xanman12321 5* (+230) 10
< 1568751966 460558 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568752548 210279 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :strict symmetric monoidal categories are nice. We can talk about composition of things with several colored inputs and as well as outputs, if we constrain Obj(C) to be generated from some S via ⊗, hence getting a colored PROP
< 1568754275 660717 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :mo noids mo problems
< 1568754528 898779 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : nobody here has kids, but some of us have evil twins or reincarnations => I want to have a twin :′(
< 1568754862 790544 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw is IQ even a feasible measure of normal people’s intellect. I heard initially it was made to determine if a person is medically, sufficiently unsmart. These are very rare in any times
< 1568754970 871379 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568755124 868204 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t trust people who talk about IQ this IQ that
< 1568755192 732307 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also about BMI
< 1568755476 379489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`forget vampire
< 1568755478 328200 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forget what?
< 1568755481 986539 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :should we call semicatefory a polyid?
< 1568755492 625907 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :semicategory*
< 1568756230 11978 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
> 1568757683 684662 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Moose moose moose moose moose 5*  10New user account
> 1568757814 21867 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66217&oldid=66164 5* 03Moose moose moose moose moose 5* (+354) 10
< 1568759434 988064 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568759667 685776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` datei # I edited this to show only three digits after the decimal point for seconds
< 1568759668 686379 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2019-09-17 22:34:28.192 +0000 UTC September 17 Tuesday 2019-W38-2
> 1568761045 58128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03MiroslavRD 5*  10New user account
< 1568761833 618057 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
> 1568761933 8532 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66218&oldid=66217 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+61) 10
> 1568761996 534341 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66219&oldid=66218 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+600) 10
> 1568762148 845394 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MiroslavRD/vector.css14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66220 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+1) 10Created page with "k"
> 1568762170 360853 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MiroslavRD/vector.css14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66221&oldid=66220 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+22) 10
< 1568762598 980012 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568762601 396 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kpDA8wgOrU
< 1568762606 196474 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1568762954 287038 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the less people need to work the more watch youtube and IQ drops
< 1568763071 709769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-25-53.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
> 1568763353 130799 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sashleyfuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66222 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+969) 10Created page with "Sashleyfuck is just like [[Brainfuck]], but it uses the letters S, A, H, L, E, and Y. It was made after [[User:MiroslavRD]] being the biggest Sashley hater.  == Commands == S..."
> 1568763394 490878 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66223&oldid=66053 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+18) 10Add my new page
> 1568763470 84774 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sashleyfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66224&oldid=66222 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+11) 10
> 1568763641 507465 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sashleyfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66225&oldid=66224 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+4) 10Link to Hello World
> 1568763710 12385 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Sashleyfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66226&oldid=66225 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+16) 10Use "Hello, world!" instead of "Hello World!" (link)
> 1568764016 448270 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainoof14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66227 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+23) 10Redirect from the Roblox-cleaned Brainfuck
> 1568764050 128479 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66228&oldid=65758 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+10) 10Added a new clean alternative
> 1568764147 332981 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MiroslavRD14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66229 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+14) 10Created page with "A rush editor."
> 1568764220 660987 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:MiroslavRD14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66230&oldid=66229 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+25) 10Rushed my last edit (i'll be editing more later)
< 1568764278 177686 :cocof!402ab343@64.42.179.67 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568764675 878068 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568767346 877219 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568768311 541149 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568769464 962409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: do you know about intel's thing where you're required to mark valid branch targets with an otherwise-nop instruction
< 1568769471 200079 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1568769519 767657 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :though apparently returns don't count as indirect branches for this purpose
< 1568769526 671292 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have some other thing for that
< 1568769878 530895 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568769958 330126 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"required"?
< 1568769975 410532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if whatever this feature is is enabled.
< 1568770015 845626 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently ARM has this too, with bti ("branch target indicator").
< 1568770537 679976 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568771077 226312 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1568771079 52254 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point?
< 1568771099 260338 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's intel's version called?
< 1568771101 861770 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you enable it?
< 1568771128 582088 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ouuychlmeucopvpv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1568771131 609225 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's for security?
< 1568771137 513502 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of clever
< 1568771152 998431 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568771250 641678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes, for security.
< 1568771270 557872 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Intel version is called CET (Control-flow Enforcement Technology).
< 1568772519 855429 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568774060 891090 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568774930 881006 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568775291 577053 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568776765 632644 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a self-deleting shell script
< 1568776777 685805 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's generated by another script, intended to be edited once and then deleted
< 1568776786 98225 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :edited, run once*
< 1568776985 667453 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/slist
< 1568776986 762884 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ Taneb \ atriq \ Ngevd \ nvd \ Fiora \ Sgeo \ ThatOtherPerson \ alot
< 1568776991 749366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1568777002 721484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, all pinged
< 1568777009 563333 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for sale: shell script, never run
< 1568777015 359706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` doag bin/slist | rot13
< 1568777017 545138 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :5366:2015-05-12  frq -v "5vaiq" ova/fyvfg \ 5075:2014-10-18  frq -v \'/abeggv/q\' ova/fyvfg \ 5073:2014-10-18  erireg \ 5072:2014-10-18  erireg 5069 \ 5070:2014-10-18  frq -v \'f|ez ova/fyvfg; ||\' ova/fyvfg \ 5069:2014-10-18  erireg \ 5068:2014-10-16  fyvfg \ 3924:2013-10-18  erireg \ 3923:2013-10-18  fyvfg Arjf: Tvtncnhfr \ 3920:2013-10-18  frq -v \'f/rkvg/ez 
< 1568777031 84303 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I learned that bash printf has a %q format specifier which escapes the parameter for use in further bash commands
< 1568777035 488623 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag bin/slist
< 1568777037 220381 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :5366:2015-05-12  sed -i "5invd" bin/slist \ 5075:2014-10-18  sed -i \'/nortti/d\' bin/slist \ 5073:2014-10-18  revert \ 5072:2014-10-18  revert 5069 \ 5070:2014-10-18  sed -i \'s|rm bin/slist; ||\' bin/slist \ 5069:2014-10-18  revert \ 5068:2014-10-16  slist \ 3924:2013-10-18  revert \ 3923:2013-10-18  slist News: Gigapause \ 3920:2013-10-18  sed -i \'s/exit/rm 
< 1568777038 401122 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo "foo ' bar" | printf "%q\n"
< 1568777039 307768 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​''
< 1568777050 607635 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :er
< 1568777059 540055 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf "%q\n" "foo ' bar"
< 1568777060 490406 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo\ \'\ bar
< 1568777062 539223 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go
< 1568777064 631834 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Oh, that's pretty fancy.
< 1568777068 85949 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tis
< 1568777081 412802 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're writing bash commands something has gone wrong, though. :-(
< 1568777086 911270 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also do ${X|@Q} in more recent bashes
< 1568777087 794795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean scripts.
< 1568777091 885005 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps
< 1568777105 437277 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :life involves lots of things going wrong
< 1568777111 799190 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet we muddle through
< 1568777171 360673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a small amd64 assembler
< 1568777183 476984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports movs and jumps so maybe it's turing-complete?
< 1568777198 414381 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for the finite-state bit
< 1568777311 311356 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat
< 1568777314 138455 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why'd you do it?
< 1568777483 635517 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to generate some code and I was tired of handwriting it.
< 1568777646 986953 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568777651 300871 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not use nasm or something?
< 1568777867 129130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems silly to go through a whole program that has to parse text and everything?
< 1568777877 641729 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe nasm is available as a library.
< 1568777995 667444 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1568778001 391960 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i support your efforts anyway
< 1568778004 951371 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing an assembler is fun
< 1568778009 481740 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be
< 1568778015 189073 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a 2 pass thing
< 1568778043 30375 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it generate relocatable files?
< 1568778136 417155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a v. simple 1-pass assembler that always uses 4-byte jump offsets and so on, right now
< 1568778150 445916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :smart assemblers presumably use more than two passes for edge cases
< 1568778222 951328 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It generates ELF executables right now.
< 1568778228 493345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're dynamically relocatable?
< 1568778247 936648 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't support non-internal linkage or anything.
< 1568778682 292055 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568778848 876605 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1568778852 663437 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you use a library to output ELF
< 1568778963 607055 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i wrote out all the bytes
< 1568778995 882662 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568779238 733841 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Client Quit
> 1568779858 306919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:ZOWIE14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66231&oldid=66213 5* 03Ais523 5* (-23) 10/* Turing completeness */ use the correct link syntax for an internal link
< 1568781416 331392 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568781505 117315 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568781799 799037 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568785078 732713 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568785268 963312 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568792237 308305 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, when you write code in continuation-passing style, you should name the continuation "return".
< 1568794552 20447 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568794569 241482 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net PART :#esoteric
< 1568797458 680892 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you should name it "k".
< 1568797471 992813 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only if you're reasonable.
< 1568799050 530409 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568799796 839619 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568799800 973025 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568801326 578666 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the k stand for "kontinuation"?
< 1568801826 30725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so.
< 1568805580 569914 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568805666 264235 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello
< 1568805685 833789 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi PaniniTheDevelop 
< 1568805736 824658 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you develop stickers?
< 1568805755 232806 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: κ is very traditional, if your chosen notation supports it.
< 1568806095 601049 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been reduced to translating some code of mine from Haskell to Javascript so that I can debug it.
< 1568806128 20480 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's a depth of hell I've never visited
< 1568806337 825784 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that sounds scary
< 1568806345 36852 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it isn't the best idea
< 1568806348 926280 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you put printfs in the Haskell code?
< 1568806371 769617 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uneval(function(x) { return x; }) === "(function(x) { return x; })"
< 1568806396 90461 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can I say "deriving (Show)" for a function value in Haskell?  Not as far as I'm aware.
< 1568806472 896148 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. you could ask #haskell but you already said they're too abstract and category theorist for you
< 1568806798 847000 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js uneval(function(x) { return x; });
< 1568806799 861334 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[eval]:1 \ uneval(function(x) { return x; }); \ ^ \  \ ReferenceError: uneval is not defined \     at [eval]:1:1 \     at Object.exports.runInThisContext (vm.js:54:17) \     at Object. ([eval]-wrapper:6:22) \     at Module._compile (module.js:409:26) \     at node.js:648:27 \     at nextTickCallbackWith0Args (node.js:489:9) \     at process._tickCallback (node.js:418:13)
< 1568806812 22582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently you can't say that in "JavaScript" either.
< 1568806876 161513 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1568806908 929465 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's apparently unique to Firefox.)
< 1568806931 715230 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that in lisp, though
< 1568806956 231296 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js (function(x) { return x; }).toString();
< 1568806957 293726 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :function (x) { return x; }
< 1568806961 21523 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like you can do that on nodejs.
< 1568807289 198736 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it give you only the body, or also the identity of the closed variables?
< 1568807432 98050 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's only the source text.
< 1568807509 19336 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js function f(x) { return function(){return x+1} } f(1).toString() + f(2).toString();
< 1568807510 112987 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :function (){return x+1}function (){return x+1}
< 1568807537 381501 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what engine does this `js run?
< 1568807538 966197 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `js
< 1568807540 202136 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`js? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
< 1568807543 607339 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's nodejs.
< 1568807562 816281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just added it to replace the broken previous `js, so it doesn't have an entry anywhere.
< 1568807568 115426 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/js
< 1568807569 40347 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/usr/bin/js -p "$*"
< 1568807608 126200 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The previous one was I think Rhino. But it got broken in the migration because there's no JRE installed on the system.
< 1568807707 924313 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js process.versions.v8
< 1568807709 123962 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.5.103.46
< 1568807716 646487 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess strictly speaking that's the "engine".
< 1568807762 79138 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`js JSON.stringify(process.versions)
< 1568807766 43984 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​{"http_parser":"2.7.0","node":"4.8.2","v8":"4.5.103.46","uv":"1.9.1","zlib":"1.2.8","ares":"1.10.1-DEV","icu":"57.1","modules":"46","openssl":"1.0.2k"}
< 1568808223 474239 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it wasn't the best idea. But I don't know where y'all're getting this "depth of hell" stuff from, Javascript's a lovely language!
< 1568808258 917729 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568808262 321609 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries hard to keep a straight face
< 1568808505 761109 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: of course it seems enticing at first.
< 1568808530 14939 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only reveals its true face once you've invested enough to no longer be able to change your existing code to a different language easily.
< 1568808583 970210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568808830 588052 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568808899 872583 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow what a weather. September onwards until snow falls, here are usually rains only. Now I heard thunder two times, and tiny ice chunks fall. Didn’t think convection is still good enough, given there weren’t thunderstorms for weeks
< 1568808920 650327 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o
< 1568809143 567569 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568809150 708306 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rip
< 1568809555 515270 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568809571 495040 :PaniniTheDevelop!b03b35d5@176.59.53.213 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568810951 442651 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fishing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66232&oldid=66211 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+24) 10
> 1568811879 367626 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66233&oldid=66135 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+73) 10/* > */
> 1568811976 383033 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hello world program in esoteric languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66234&oldid=66210 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+57) 10/* FiM++ */
> 1568812018 245157 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fishing14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66235&oldid=66232 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-12) 10/* Hello, World! */ why adding 
 when there a space before it.
> 1568812099 518444 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Turth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66236&oldid=65569 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+22) 10
> 1568812251 945871 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:MSM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66237&oldid=65203 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-41) 10Nani!? This must be the work of a enemy stand! they blanked the page and removed the redirect!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111 this is awfullll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!
< 1568812272 992960 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear
> 1568812474 999131 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66238&oldid=66101 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+2696) 10
> 1568812500 612885 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66239&oldid=66238 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (-1) 10/* commands */
> 1568813227 375609 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66240&oldid=66239 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+66) 10/* commands */
< 1568816522 524167 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568816665 516897 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568816775 687823 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568817044 486947 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568820014 216290 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Flop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66241&oldid=65750 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-239) 10
> 1568821266 962852 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5*  10moved [[02Flop10]] to [[Brainflop]]: Name changed
> 1568821280 616474 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainflop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66244&oldid=66242 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+5) 10
< 1568821489 520959 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4488:d02a:6f94:a883 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568821643 974470 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:2cbf:617e:9cf0:4f35 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1568822069 276146 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568822379 702886 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: I got BLISTERS on my FINGERS *thwannggg*
< 1568823308 541121 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568824105 521809 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568824280 882580 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568824433 441390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hexar14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66245 5* 03Enchant3d 5* (+6052) 10Created page with "'''Hexar''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] which uses almost only hexadecimal numbers. ==Language overview== Hexar runs on an array that can contain only positive num..."
< 1568824504 595113 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568824506 987079 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66246&oldid=66223 5* 03Enchant3d 5* (+12) 10/* H */
< 1568824627 122803 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568824627 262089 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
> 1568825216 892502 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ABC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66247&oldid=65492 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+59) 10
> 1568831352 516009 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07@NUM14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66248&oldid=66209 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (-4261) 10
< 1568833074 912803 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568833386 527615 :dingwat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-spcuoorqjqvimidn JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568834563 268847 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:39cf:ce08:94f8:bba4 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568834635 179379 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:4479:369a:ec9a:4eb8 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568835291 744906 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568836022 562525 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568836273 981320 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:a4d7:5216:af18:b2c QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1568836565 876146 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Tetratrary 5*  10New user account
< 1568837059 600300 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:9518:1517:596c:356f JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568837626 936923 :APic!~apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568837902 121917 :APic!~apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1568838530 891899 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568839785 335031 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568840126 526131 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568840708 179289 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any interesting esolangs based on the idea of jumping into the middle of an instruction?
< 1568840762 211254 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. you can do that in a lot of low-level languages, but I don't know any that really require it
< 1568840781 695021 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can do it but usually it's only in special cases.
< 1568840803 195280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of a language where doing things like that is required to do computation.
< 1568840842 645737 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could advance the instruction pointer by one byte instead of the size of an instruction (and have all instructions be at least 2 bytes large to make it interesting)
< 1568840857 952147 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there might be something like bytepusher, but that modifies an instruction as it executes it. I might have even seen one but I don't recall which esolang
< 1568840912 938829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess more broadly you could ask for something that interprets the same instructions multiple different ways.
< 1568841011 955247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a bit easier. Piet can interpret the same instruction in different ways
< 1568841051 769280 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, even in befunge we have instructions that we use in multiple ways depending on the direction of execution
< 1568841061 837165 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so.
< 1568841063 868936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should count as similar to jumping into the middle of an instruction
< 1568841071 245145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's funny that these disassemble differently:
< 1568841076 330057 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp 0
< 1568841077 378392 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  e9 00 00 00 00   jmpq 0x5
< 1568841078 586848 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp $0
< 1568841079 693104 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  e9 00 00 00 00   jmp 0x5
< 1568841259 576097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think that's because the `asm command guesses different assembly syntaxes from your input
< 1568841297 55139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's why.
< 1568841498 26329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forte, SMETANA, ///, Fuun DNA are all self-modifying, and in an interesting way where the self-modifying entails more than just modifying plain memory offset or immediate operands of instructions, but I don't think you could say that you usually jump into the middle of an instruction in them
< 1568841517 609463 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though in /// and Fuun DNA, you could overlap instructions in interesting ways if you wanted to
< 1568841529 563155 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's impractical just like in x86
< 1568841545 419462 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all that you normally do is to put instructions as arguments into other instructions
< 1568841555 810668 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or put parts of instructions as arguments into other instructions if you wish
< 1568841576 793750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes
< 1568841580 26922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was MiniMAX
< 1568841594 203534 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm no
< 1568841605 381250 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can't overlap instructions in MiniMAX
< 1568841630 227417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1568841632 373723 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you CAN overlap them
< 1568841651 225045 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact iiuc, MiniMAX does essentially require you to overlap instructions if you want to write useful programs
< 1568841656 861055 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's your answer, you want MiniMAX
< 1568841752 891300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1568844905 664582 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568846196 773492 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today's possible GCC bug: with `#define b +` as the context, the expression `0b10` is either treated as a binary literal (-std=c11) or an error (-std=c11 -pedantic), while in a strictly conforming implementation I believe it should be treated as `0+10`.
< 1568846348 538086 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568846388 320442 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568846396 287095 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rationale: In translation phase 3 the input is decomposed into preprocessing tokens. C11 6.4p4 says "the next preprocessing token is the longest sequence of characters that could constitute a preprocessing token", which should at the start be "0" (as a pp-number), next "b" (as an identifier) and then finally "10" (again a pp-number). That sequence of tokens would then in translation phase 4 have the "b" 
< 1568846402 295342 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :token undergo macro invocation to expand to "+".
< 1568846480 283476 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :made a tiny version of echidna (unfortunately with all different letters) for my arduino
< 1568846588 614887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so b10 is not an identifier?
< 1568846593 859721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "#define b +" should just crash the compiler.
< 1568846621 533046 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh, I guess it is. Good point.
< 1568846629 39346 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Well, you can modify the example appropriately.
< 1568846655 235142 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say `#define b10 +10` then.
< 1568846742 59396 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although maybe `#define b1 -1` and `0b1` is better, it's pleasantly symmetrically either +1 or -1. Or would be if it didn't get treated as a binary literal in all cases.
< 1568847770 877804 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568848355 942089 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lets out an f-bomb
< 1568848382 305203 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just saved over something i was working on for a while
< 1568848493 789704 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way to effing restore the douments
< 1568848596 240062 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sucks... the only condolence I can offer is that it'll likely be better the second time
< 1568848652 695698 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grWp backup
< 1568848654 327490 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :taneb:Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
< 1568848660 711032 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote backup
< 1568848661 563299 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :791)  Backups are so like one of those circus guys walking on a wire except with a safety rope. \ 1082)  Possible business plan: data storage on the moon?   Getting at it after the collapse of civilization here might be an issue.   who cares about civilization? you have backups!
< 1568848714 786538 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel is populated by smart people. Sometimes it shows.
< 1568848747 438551 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure this was one of those times.
< 1568848802 291986 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Huh. Somehow I read your 16:16 comment as starting with the word "life", several times.
< 1568848811 584528 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word doesn't seem to be present now. Very odd.
< 1568848953 169799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I went back in time and erased it, mwahahaha.
< 1568848970 803878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was life better the second time?
< 1568848985 863356 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it was gone
< 1568849174 232191 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :video game universe, everyone gets 3
< 1568849189 852495 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems unfair to cats
< 1568849222 152993 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat
< 1568849223 397970 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
< 1568849234 773270 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where do I express my membership in the cat fan club?
< 1568849330 575242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the sole purpose of Instagram I believe.
< 1568849401 644259 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :always these extrapolation problems... 0m0.175s / 0m1.565s / 0m13.975s / 2m5.592s / 18m58.191s / ???
< 1568849429 465972 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was estimating 3 hours and it's at 164m)
< 1568849438 685927 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/Echidna%20v0_11a1b_1.pdf
< 1568849461 66199 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc.pdf
< 1568849525 386713 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish C varargs were better.
< 1568849544 43199 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: fwiw, the statement "life sucks" would not face much opposition from my side.
< 1568849565 543137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? life
< 1568849566 831059 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​‘Life,’ said Marvin, ‘don't talk to me about life.’
< 1568849567 192523 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably limit myself to pointing out that it's better than the alternative.
< 1568849576 849628 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it?
< 1568849603 372652 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, s/pointing out/claiming/ if you like.
< 1568849631 499248 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's potential in life. There's no potential in death.
< 1568849634 249645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice, I think, if C had some kind of runtime-accessible type info.
< 1568849644 286226 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then varargs included information about it.
< 1568849669 865321 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fake that for http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt
< 1568849711 911030 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing i had to redo and was swearing about the original: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/dec%20sixbit.pdf
< 1568849764 696007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but would it still be C then?
< 1568849770 392566 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: The ??? is 1h16m7.135s hth
< 1568849789 413090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: we're way past that point :P
< 1568849798 782332 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: No, but I guess that's OK.
< 1568849816 707895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should use this language: https://github.com/pervognsen/bitwise/blob/master/notes/ion_motivation.md
< 1568849878 15561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: https://gist.github.com/int-e/21f328a88bfd96146a5df0937b9b743d is the context... it *is* hard to predict these kind of searvhes.
< 1568849917 747338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you searching for?
< 1568849924 919836 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but I'd fit an exponential function
< 1568849940 538759 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My extrapolation advice is: If f(1) = 1 and f(2) = 3, f is probably TREE.
< 1568849952 387574 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the current run is powers of two such that all but 13 of the last k digits are 9... maximizing k.
< 1568849993 852083 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the file has results for 13 replaced with 8..12
< 1568850017 917564 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I always fit a polynomial of degree n if given n+1 points to work with.
< 1568850027 270383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's done.
< 1568850030 642706 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :user    173m33.476s
< 1568850047 263402 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you compiling?
< 1568850057 883804 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :or running?
< 1568850073 918202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lykaina: see the above link... it's a C++ program
< 1568850298 552284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: That reminds me, my "time" program only shows seconds, not minutes.
< 1568850303 148271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that worth fixing?
< 1568850332 203879 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "time" should be built in to my shell. It should time every command it runs automatically, and give me the information if I request it.
< 1568850336 130250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: entirely up to you
< 1568850351 161820 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably minutes are more human readable
< 1568850362 462792 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much
< 1568850412 576094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but not by much" is more proper I guess
< 1568850436 913410 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The few times I ran it on time scales where minutes were useful, I divided by 60 manually.
< 1568850503 4823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, my time program is so good. It's the best.
< 1568850713 273104 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i pick the right subset of echidna for the arduino?
< 1568850767 298394 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's great to hear that you're happy with *something*.
< 1568850772 756709 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`which time
< 1568850773 673529 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1568850776 319389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Oh no. :-(
< 1568850782 980912 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, there's no time program on HackEso at all.
< 1568850783 17340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Have I been complaining too much?
< 1568850794 898367 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a shell builtin. Or maybe several of them.
< 1568850801 999420 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` type -a time
< 1568850802 841416 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :time is a shell keyword
< 1568850808 300271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even a builtin!
< 1568850834 385439 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :`time
< 1568850835 170650 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
< 1568850847 540082 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date
< 1568850849 346066 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wed Sep 18 23:54:08 UTC 2019
< 1568851213 692287 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568851416 4856 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not sure about whether it's *too* much. :P
< 1568851446 968295 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568851536 930125 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :just backed up echidna-uno
< 1568851578 951809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` date && time;
< 1568851579 829816 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :real: 0m0.000s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s \ Thu Sep 19 00:06:19 UTC 2019
< 1568851595 831957 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The empty command: it's fast.
< 1568851607 808348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running commands isn't that fast.
< 1568851633 619107 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes several seconds to compile echidna
< 1568851816 895217 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll go time it
< 1568851889 588908 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datereal	0m0.901s
< 1568851889 805425 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :user	0m0.512s
< 1568851889 805459 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys	0m0.264s
< 1568851890 342608 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: datereal	0m0.901s: not found
< 1568851897 406806 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops
< 1568851938 21080 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid scrollwheel
< 1568852014 291568 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION scrolls a bit in the logs and notices someone called PaniniTheDevelop
< 1568852034 866937 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm now hoping for a sanskrit-grammar-based esolang
< 1568852051 891147 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION won't read all the logs these days, alas
< 1568852057 849706 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :real	0m2.296s
< 1568852058 22178 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :user	0m1.595s
< 1568852058 58310 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys	0m0.674s
< 1568852067 707782 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's another machine
< 1568852111 877190 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one i do most my coding on
< 1568852143 215077 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan 
< 1568852150 722408 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Lykaina 
< 1568852162 367362 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's agora?
< 1568852181 300432 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, i'm about a month backlogged, although it's still alive
< 1568852187 228507 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1568852193 620898 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :make that 1 month 11 days
< 1568852224 134370 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :where i'm at they were doing a Birthday Tournament based on the Fantasy Rules Committee
< 1568852256 963189 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking of rejoining
< 1568852269 647077 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trying to clear up bugs for a broken space minigame
< 1568852279 843318 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in Agor itself)
< 1568852282 770160 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Agora
< 1568852342 505409 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need to find out if any of my email addresses are still receiving stuff
< 1568852346 653229 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is actually trying to read _that_ log, but has about 450 messages left
< 1568852398 826901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is there a nomic-style thing based on something computer-interpretable which is good?
< 1568852416 362560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: are you adding messages to the log faster than you read them?
< 1568852453 337020 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i don't know but i had some fun in schemenomic way back
< 1568852500 946594 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not on average but i go several days between binges
< 1568852510 987168 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's about the same days i'm on irc
< 1568852517 85159 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit fewer
< 1568852861 700661 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :once again schlock mercenary (from yesterday) triggers my fridge logic: what's to prevent the pa'anuri from obliterating the station with their long gun the moment they notice it's been retaken?
< 1568852898 205892 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the ship, it's unlikely to be able to do massive evasion maneuvers
< 1568853082 50136 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:9518:1517:596c:356f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568853110 730327 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nothing? it is a great risk :P
< 1568853168 668730 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know where Howard Taylor is going with this atm. My thought was that if you want to kill off a nigh-indestructible amorph, this is one way to do it.)
< 1568853182 523565 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568853202 891609 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's been killed off before, restored from backup
< 1568853210 485729 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these days everyone has backups
< 1568853216 46193 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah that's the hole in my idea.
< 1568853229 405967 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the backup servers... but those have never been talked about.
< 1568853263 622985 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope they do multiple redundancy.
< 1568853335 557865 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the last book... will he bring up old, forgotten lore? Gate keepers, attorney drones (too bad about that contract)...
< 1568853375 63445 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not clear how distributed they are.  many people might not want Petey / the Oafans to have that complete control so maybe they have their own servers.
< 1568853388 749965 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. I like the characters, I've always liked the grand scheme of things so far... I forgive the details :)
< 1568853406 694594 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I
< 1568853414 786396 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll wait to see where this is going.
< 1568853420 151416 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :another fridge logic: _if_ petey controls all the backups then he could essentially do the Gatekeeper scheme without killing people
< 1568853465 880087 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But he's benevolent... right?! :P
< 1568853491 432932 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm hoping to see Pa'anuri talk at some point.  for other enemy races, tayler has pretty much always shown that not everyone is evil, but not for the pa'anuri.
< 1568853551 979163 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, I'm happy to wait and see.
< 1568853555 191899 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe not always.  but often.
< 1568853581 452638 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( attorney drones are another exception :P )
< 1568853586 998988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking there are so many loose ends, how can they possibly fit in one book.
< 1568853591 63242 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :true
< 1568853597 481788 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:9518:1517:596c:356f JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568853622 771612 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect some loose ends will be left behind for good.
< 1568853628 930994 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially from the early books.
< 1568853831 328521 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1568853915 151593 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the meantime I'm wondering who exactly the attacker in GG is. (Is it Lucrezia? Is it a van Rijn clank?)
< 1568853935 173057 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was pretty clearly lucrezia
< 1568853948 524410 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :she admits to having killed Queens before, after all
< 1568853961 121842 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just... time travel is so weird.
< 1568853998 791182 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and she can hop bodies too
< 1568854001 555710 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah maybe for this particular question I'm just stupid.
< 1568854029 555022 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm also wondering whether she's organic or a clank, though, the color is a bit ambiguous
< 1568854338 223055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lucrezia's time travel appears to be of the novikov self consistency principle kind, which is still mind bending but a bit saner than rewriting timelines
< 1568854472 219868 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, that purple extradimensional gentleman apparently has a name that is only visible in the chapter selection menu
< 1568854493 874595 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although people on the girl genius wiki have picked it up)
< 1568855181 649860 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568855610 980247 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is the last book..." => ah yes. and it's the last book of OotS too. it's crazy how far we've gone. we've been reading it for a while.
< 1568859063 270229 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568861554 307988 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568863022 360873 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568863055 687024 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: does this have enough from echidna? http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc.pdf
< 1568863105 492144 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, 256 1-byte memory on this one
< 1568864460 419675 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc_1.pdf
< 1568867183 435418 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4488:d02a:6f94:a883 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568867242 202925 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1568867846 594275 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568867916 931906 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568869750 540327 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5b3:382d:64ed:7ec JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568870030 519359 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5b3:382d:64ed:7ec QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568873713 347871 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc_0002.pdf
< 1568873747 900552 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568874000 38482 :rodgort!~rodgort@static.38.6.217.95.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568874097 953577 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :night
< 1568874106 879882 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568875662 527715 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5b3:382d:64ed:7ec JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568875775 962679 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:755b:ea9c:ac9f:4afe JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568876036 521162 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:5b3:382d:64ed:7ec QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568876737 485039 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568877035 913979 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568878795 2287 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-53.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568880255 704085 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66249 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+365) 10/* Requesting to install Extension:Math to this wiki */ new section
> 1568880312 677705 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Totally Accurate Malbolge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66250&oldid=55343 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+29) 10
> 1568880341 95753 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cubestate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66251&oldid=53053 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+24) 10
< 1568880567 362209 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
> 1568880622 71704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:Disambig14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66252&oldid=30340 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+160) 10
> 1568880638 499673 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:Disambig14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66253&oldid=66252 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-1) 10
> 1568880830 884703 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Introduce yourself14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66254 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+255) 10/* Shall we archive this project page regularly? */ new section
> 1568880896 128175 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mindcrush14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66255&oldid=40559 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+60) 10
> 1568880924 724295 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Codesine/implementation14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66256&oldid=44357 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+30) 10
< 1568881686 870642 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568881715 958206 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568882555 804544 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07FISHQ9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66257&oldid=53379 5* 03Dtuser1337 5* (+4) 10/* C */
< 1568883163 360391 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:755b:ea9c:ac9f:4afe QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568883253 565364 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:cc8a:2e46:2301:50de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568883386 975222 :tromp_!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c490:6708:de31:2ddc JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568883553 569773 :tromp__!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:94f6:a8b7:5dd5:cb6a JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568883563 542222 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:cc8a:2e46:2301:50de QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
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< 1568884367 990344 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:94f6:a8b7:5dd5:cb6a JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568884709 13347 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Fizzie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66258&oldid=66249 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+901) 10/* Requesting to install Extension:Math to this wiki */ Thoughts.
< 1568884856 951610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568885110 878391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "0b10" is a pp-number (n1570 6.4.8p1), thus by 6.4p4 parsing it as "0 b 10" is not allowed; so this is a syntax error as there's no valid parses
< 1568885138 314084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a nice example in 6.4p5 that specifically talks about this case, and it's compared to the example of x+++++y (which is also a syntax error)
< 1568885158 689221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess this is more about lexing than parsing
< 1568885243 257810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, you can certainly make a reasonable argument that pp-numbers shouldn't allow random letters embedded in them, but they dod
< 1568885244 940802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*do
< 1568885311 241400 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, I didn't notice it has got /identifier-nondigit/ in it.
< 1568885317 214452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, re the discussion of time(1): how does that command actually work? what's the API for timing commands?
< 1568885317 912265 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit funky.
< 1568885341 125172 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just saw it's got special formats for e, E, p, P and thought it'd be an exhaustive list.
< 1568885356 923989 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e, E, p, P are the only letters that bridge a sign to their right
< 1568885369 255252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :other letters are allowed but don't incorporate a + or - to their right as part of the number
< 1568885374 530102 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568885415 953837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this reminds me of a huge annoyance I have with languages that allow - in identifiers
< 1568885433 995232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that identifiers then end up with a random mix of hyphens and underscores in and it's hard to remember which to use
< 1568885435 399562 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that is at least more consistent with C++'s relaxed rules, which allow most combinations of numbers and letters as a token lexed to a user-defined literal
< 1568885442 784981 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, the context for this was whether GNU C (with -fno-gnu-keywords, otherwise it's clear) is a superset of C in the sense that all strictly conforming programs behave the same.
< 1568885448 133337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a language allows hyphens in identifiers, it should probably ban underscores, and vice versa
< 1568885449 110913 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and their more relaxed rules for string literals and character literals)
< 1568885459 753963 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way we can have one preprocessor that works for all language variants
< 1568885484 294049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, the preprocessor is meant to be the same between C and C++, isn't it?
< 1568885484 381263 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading through the extensions and landed on binary literals in the hopes of making those valid, but looks like the pp-number thing precludes that.
< 1568885531 864118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C89/GNU89, you can use // comments to tell the two languages apart using the //*…*/ trick
< 1568885558 764637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there's also the extern inline thing
< 1568885559 238134 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the opposite way, a language should allow hyphens, underscores, and one or two more characters in identifiers, because that way you can conveniently put base64-encoded stuff into generated identifiers, and still have a delimiter 
< 1568885581 866653 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course printable ascii characters are sparse, so this may not be practical in some languages
< 1568885582 229267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe -fno-gnu-keywords would disable that? logically it should
< 1568885613 798905 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hyphens are already used for other meanings in C and many languages, so we shouldn't allow hyphens in particular
< 1568885618 935023 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think it disables 'inline' in C90 mode.
< 1568885622 485651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just an argument for allowing two punctuation marks as part of an identifier?
< 1568885631 980665 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, GNU90 mode.
< 1568885636 405670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many languages have that, the most common choices being $ and _
< 1568885637 899532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think languages should allow spaces in identifiers, like ALGOL 68?
< 1568885661 889393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oddly the use of _ within identifiers may have indirectly come from ALGOL 68
< 1568885667 531813 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it doesn't need to be hyphen specifically, though there's some precedent for hyphens
< 1568885685 700069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ambiguous situations you used a leading . to mark something a keyword and leading or trailing _ to mark something as an identifier
< 1568885691 372556 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also precedent for not allowing hyphens, but allowing _ @ $ . and I think one more in assembly syntax
< 1568885694 643908 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check 
< 1568885697 661422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with two-word identifiers it was usual to put the _ between the words to mark them both as identifiers
< 1568885716 732008 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though this is used more on windows
< 1568885727 615293 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: it makes a lot of sense for asm to allow at least one character the source language doesn't
< 1568885731 397614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can generate temporary identifiers
< 1568885740 300997 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, or mangled identifiers
< 1568885763 702389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages allow arbitrary strings as identifiers, but you can't write them literally in source code
< 1568885771 579058 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other hand, it also makes sense to allow that character in the source language, possibly with some escaping, but heavily discourage using it in production, because it may clash with temporary or mangled identifiers,
< 1568885784 268624 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some escape syntax, normally similar to that for strings but with a different delimeter
< 1568885796 554582 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: afaik php does that
< 1568885807 331041 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that if you _really_ want to, you can write C code that directly refers to C++ identifiers, even if they're mangled the windows way with @ signs, rather than the unix way with ZZ prefix
< 1568885821 514474 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you can happily define $GLOBALS[""] but you cannot access it via $
< 1568885823 468748 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have this working as the de facto way to access fortran identifiers from C
< 1568885831 241681 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just append an underscore
< 1568885866 894076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL actually disallows two consecutive underscores from appearing anywhere in an identifier
< 1568885868 308348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Was this on plaforms that didn't support bold keywords?
< 1568885871 29079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably for this sort of reason
< 1568885874 621189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i.e. all of them
< 1568885878 168911 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"arbitrary strings as identifiers, but you can't write them literally in source code" => yeah. perl allows arbitrary or almost arbitrary strings, definitely much more freely than the ordinary identifier syntax
< 1568885892 701914 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in fact this is used for some internal hidden stuff, although somewhat inconsistently
< 1568885893 817499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"keywords in bold, identifiers in italic" is the "official" definition of the language but nobody actually stores programs like that
< 1568885898 167758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I support spaces in identifiers?
< 1568885911 548726 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, why not?
< 1568885920 122406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works for colorForth.
< 1568885991 660365 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://sourceware.org/binutils/docs-2.32/as/Symbol-Intro.html#Symbol-Intro says that gas allows $ _ . as punctuation
< 1568886007 138708 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :details depend on the architecture conventions
< 1568886063 914213 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that too depends on the language. in some languages it makes sense, in others it doesn't. it can also make sense to allow but _ignore_ spaces in identifiers.
< 1568886102 641453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: :: and ' are treated as synonymous inside an identifier
< 1568886123 743786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Perl
< 1568886130 562979 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: IIRC only if you use symbolic references, not if you access the symbol table directly
< 1568886132 715958 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check
< 1568886146 167234 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also :: is special because it delimits packages
< 1568886213 9606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're accessing the symbol table directly, is it even an identifier any more?
< 1568886288 252253 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, ${":'::"} and ${"::':"} turn out to be different variables (the latter is the same variable as ${":::::"})
< 1568886301 353882 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also :: is special because it delimits packages
< 1568886310 427143 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`perl -e $f::g = 3; $t = 4; $u = 5; $::{"f::g"} = *t; $::{"f'g"} = *u; print join(",", ${"f::g"}, ${"f'g"}, ${$::{"f::g"}}, ${$::{"f'g"}});
< 1568886311 278942 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3,3,4,5
< 1568886329 194627 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ right. though I think a few of the rules have changed at some point after perl 5.12
< 1568886340 832392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know, ' is special for the same reason
< 1568886357 929546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is mostly useless in modern Perl, but it has lead to some interesting modules like ACME::Don't
< 1568886364 311449 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM token.
< 1568886397 804070 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they at least changed the error message to no longer say that in PHP, and added T_DOUBLE_COLON as an alias for the token.
< 1568886416 326197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an explanation for why it was in Hebrew in the first place? IIRC the other tokens weren't
< 1568886418 810202 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, maybe it doesn't count as an identifier then, I don't know. the symbol table still doesn't behave like an ordinary hash, but its keys mostly do, only its values don't
< 1568886427 524390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…did PHP's parser use strlen for hashing too? :-D
< 1568886460 268773 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was in Hebrew just as a little easter egg about the developers.
< 1568886627 272928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reason PHP's built-in functions are named so inconsistently is that they used to be hashed using strlen, and thus needed a wide distribution among the possible names)
< 1568886684 107409 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew
< 1568886698 593249 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One odd thing is that "nekudatayim" would be a more correct transliteration.
< 1568886776 882775 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my favorite php bugs was that matching for class names or interfaces is made on lowercase of the name. this results in class Foo implement BarInterface not working on turkish locales because lowercase will result in a small i without a dot which does not match the small i with the dot that it's matched against
< 1568886885 902877 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: right. which is why compilers shouldn't care about the locale, not even as much as javac does, to decide what encoding to decode string literals from
< 1568886929 459145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a program uses locale-sensitive operations (e.g. is written case-insensitively), it should have an explicit locale declaration, just like programs typically have an explicit encoding declaration
< 1568886977 471953 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also excel cares about the number and date formats that are set globally to the user, so some more obscure things that you can do with macros (that effectively eval a formula) will break if you use the spreadsheet on a machine with different settings,
< 1568887042 605275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a very common mistake to use an IO routine intended for human-readable numbers on machine-readable numbers or vice versa
< 1568887047 758710 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because on locales with dot as the decimal separator, dot is parsed as decimal point, comma as argument separator, and semicolon as magic; on machines with comma as the decimal point, comma is parsed as decimal point, semicolon as function argument separator, and backslash as magic.
< 1568887073 475288 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these stupid industry systems that we use at work are even worse in this respect, depending on the global locale, as well
< 1568887095 930396 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though not quite in the way that excel is, they depend on the locale in different ways
< 1568887117 194039 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the end result is also that you sometimes have to set global locale settings to be able to run a program
< 1568887332 970608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the locale settings for a program should in theory tell it how to interact with the user and the user's files, terminals, etc.
< 1568887345 4021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means you need two different APIs, one for the user's files, one for the program's own files
< 1568887352 241425 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is a distinction that not enough languages draw
< 1568887365 4647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most that do, don't draw in a useful manner
< 1568887389 653100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Java, for example, has a concept of a "program's own files" when working out the security implications of opening a file, but this doesn't extend to encoding/locale as far as I know)
< 1568887520 853426 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the strange but tolerable results that you get on windows when a program uses a stock message box and the message in it is in a different language than the captions of the "Yes" and "No" buttons, because the latter come from windows's message language, the former from the program's
< 1568887640 158891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the Windows library has an API for "show me a dialog box with yes/no buttons" that's orders of magnitude easier to use than a custom dialog box would be
< 1568887650 717961 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that helps to get the dialog boxes standardised
< 1568887671 918518 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(arguably it'd make sense to have an API for "show me a dialog box with n buttons, here's the text to show on them" but last time I checked, it didn't)
< 1568887688 206582 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish platform APIs were much simpler, with things like that moved into a standard library that you can link if you want.
< 1568887690 390474 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily I finally managed to get a configuration of windows at work where the message language of every program is english, even that of office and firefox. Though firefox breaks that config once every few years.
< 1568887739 311671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume your workplace normally uses Hungarian?
< 1568887753 508522 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I only get mixed language stuff on machines other than my main one, though I do have to touch other machines (by remote access) often.
< 1568887771 710086 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, or at least mixed hungarian and english, because many programs aren't localized to hungarian
< 1568887825 404530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely the appropriate fallback for programs with no hungarian localisation would be Finnish? ;-)
< 1568887835 189312 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, windows 10 sort of requires you to install the message localization of windows in order to be able to use hungarian keyboard layout, even when that's not the primary keyboard layout. so I do have a full copy of hungarian messages on windows on the hard disk. 
< 1568887887 91013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oóőö
< 1568887905 445557 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they don't have localization in finnish too. they're Siemens programs, they sometimes have parts that are accidentally localized only in german, not in english, or that can be switched to english but default to german, or where a list in the english help file is sorted by the german order.
< 1568887906 481775 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`òh nó´
< 1568887907 130703 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: òh: not found
< 1568887909 439014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Hungarian isn't /that/ hard to type on a UK keyboard (at least under X/Gnome)
< 1568887910 802607 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops.
< 1568887911 299414 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :double accents?
< 1568887933 889188 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use the keyboard layout US International (AltGr deadkeys)
< 1568887945 60171 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's great. Everyone should have an AltGr key.
< 1568887947 74085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: Hungarian has a double acute, which is basically an acute and umlaut at the same timee
< 1568887949 191104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time
< 1568887972 179388 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea on how to pronounce that, but i like it
< 1568887974 562870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the "acute" is more of a length mark, the macron is more standard for that
< 1568888000 561338 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does that include uppercase letters like ÁÉŐ, and common punctuation like „a” b – c … d?
< 1568888005 25686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what does altgr-` produce on that?
< 1568888031 285381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ÁÉÓ are easy enough
< 1568888038 89819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It behaves like a deadkey, so altgr-` a produces à
< 1568888044 82125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as are “”, but I don't know where the inverted ” is
< 1568888045 435424 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ` by itself produces `
< 1568888065 383038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see, so it's different from the UK layout but mostly just a rearrangement of keys it has
< 1568888073 352756 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which UK layout?
< 1568888080 822858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a UK layout, dead grave is AltGr-#
< 1568888087 208828 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha.
< 1568888101 864874 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The default US English layout has no deadkeys and no way to type à
< 1568888138 42037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is the standard UK English layout
< 1568888149 161833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are variants but they're mostly things like Dvorak that make really major changes
< 1568888166 942785 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, the altgr-combinations work differently on Linux and Windows, and kind-of suck on Windows
< 1568888168 685419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably make my own layout or at least my own compose key file at one point.
< 1568888177 562690 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in theory yes, but I can be the devil's advocate and argue against. The letters á and é are overwhelmingly more common than any other accented letter in Hungarian, and "é" changes openness compared to "e" and "á" changes every vowel quality compared to "a". 
< 1568888177 801471 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I often don't know how to type the things I want.
< 1568888181 126575 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The length of vowels is hard to perceive in some context, you find situations where the length is uncertain in writing or can be changed deliberately for meter, and this is the most common for words ending in "ú", but very rarely happens for "e" vs "é". 
< 1568888181 282045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has a really complete set of them
< 1568888193 247672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately I have a good Unicode searcher and selector.
< 1568888207 50516 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only real change I made to the layout was to move Compose to Caps Lock (and Caps Lock to Shift-Shift), because Compose is used often enough that the default binding of Shift-AltGr is awkward
< 1568888293 679048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might also have re-enabled Ctrl-Alt-Backspace? but I don't want to try pressing it to find out
< 1568888329 457396 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't usually bother with the altgr combinations on windows. I mostly just switch back to the US-english layout for typing fancy puntuation. There are even some ascii characters for which I really can't remember which key is it on with altgr on the Hungarian layout. The ampersand is somewhere in the z-m row, but I don't know where.
< 1568888345 749608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know I re-enabled a lot of Alt-SysRq sequences but those don't have much to do with the keyboard layout, and in fact are IIRC typed in QWERTY regardless of what the layout is)
< 1568888349 918940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I use Caps Lock for Esc. Maybe I should map Esc to compose.
< 1568888361 314188 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for typing non-ascii stuff on windows, I mostly just open either Wordpad or Word, type the unicode character code in hex, press alt-x, and copy-paste.
< 1568888389 955067 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a dedicated key for Esc that means something on its own is an antipattern :-(
< 1568888452 927605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's convenient but it's ambiguous with a lot of things that use Esc as a prefix
< 1568888463 754036 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What uses Esc as a prefix?
< 1568888468 465873 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do type some hungarian text occasionally in mails, and for that I sometimes use the hungarian layout for words.
< 1568888470 224683 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric : on a UK layout, dead grave is AltGr-#     Oooh, this is helpful
< 1568888499 472190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently in my layout, AltGr-Shift-3 a produces ā
< 1568888531 592782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ā is altgr-shift-] a for me
< 1568888558 324373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dead accents are basically all AltGr + punctuation on the right side of the keyboard
< 1568888580 21093 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I type that one by character code, 0x101
< 1568888587 767428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a sort-of logic to it, with AltGr-; AltGr-' AltGr-# acute, circumflex, grave
< 1568888610 32222 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :äåãāáâǎàă
< 1568888621 724189 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dead grave" sounds a lot scarier than it actually is
< 1568888623 739369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :AltGr-' AltGr-6 AltGr-` seems much more logical.
< 1568888658 138949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, but sequences like altgr-6 are risky to use for forward compatibility reasons
< 1568888664 765737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that's where newly discovered punctuation marks go
< 1568888677 728783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most notably, altgr-4 for €)
< 1568888695 440991 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :AltGr-Shift-4 produces £ here
< 1568888705 342397 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a logic to the character codes in the iso-8859-1 and latin-extended-A regions too. the order is always the same: grave, acute, circumflex, tilde, umlaut, macron, brevis for vowels.
< 1568888722 630599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ugh, I'd expect £ variants to be tied to 3
< 1568888824 175552 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It gets uglier for consonants.)
< 1568888857 925044 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the x86-64 extension do?
< 1568888859 579484 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have lots of fun on international shippings
< 1568888880 551404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it gives you access to a second set of punctuation marks.
< 1568888890 266290 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1568888924 821848 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use the REX prefix on ISO-8859-1, I mean.
< 1568888938 976661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't the REX prefixes capital letters?
< 1568888948 24328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the null REX prefix, which is @
< 1568888981 766177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true.
< 1568888985 568965 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether rex.b or rex.x would be more appropriate for the second set of punctuation marks
< 1568889013 176531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x41, 0x90, 0x42, 0x90, 0x44, 0x90, 0x48, 0x90
< 1568889013 771815 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rex.r? I don't think puncutation marks even use memory addressing.
< 1568889015 405274 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  41 90   xchg %eax,%r8d \ 2:  42 90   rex.X xchg %eax,%eax \ 4:  44 90   rex.R xchg %eax,%eax \ 6:  48 90   rex.W nop
< 1568889069 613646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, yes, rex.r is the only one that makes sense in almost every context
< 1568889080 922864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm, no
< 1568889099 330954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the examples above show, rex.b is the relevant bit when you have only the one non-fixed argument
< 1568889112 803123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably because most commands can take either register or memory
< 1568889132 413922 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hmm.
< 1568889148 575227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm guessing we use a prefix of capital A to switch to the other set of punctuation marks
< 1568889177 964014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm xchg %al, %sil
< 1568889179 54167 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  40 86 c6   xchg %al,%sil
< 1568889186 388166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/xchg says 90+rd is XCHG EAX,r32
< 1568889201 748048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would that use REX.B instead of REX.R?
< 1568889229 815292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more to the point, why doesn't one affect the EAX and the other affect the r32?
< 1568889231 319385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was mixed up.
< 1568889249 972042 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :REX.R specifically affects the "reg" field of the ModR/M byte.
< 1568889270 344141 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, no, this is still kind of odd.
< 1568889315 974745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x87, 0324
< 1568889317 36158 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  87 d4   xchg %edx,%esp
< 1568889331 910732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x44, 0x87, 0324
< 1568889332 822349 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  44 87 d4   xchg %r10d,%esp
< 1568889345 692384 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x41, 0x87, 0324
< 1568889346 777965 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  41 87 d4   xchg %edx,%r12d
< 1568889347 849131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : REX.B: 1-bit (msb) extension of the ModRM r/m field 1 , SIB base field 1 , or opcode reg field, permitting access to 16 registers.
< 1568889360 516804 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's better than the source I read.
< 1568889362 606346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's very clear
< 1568889373 650543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :AMD invented this instruction set, so I use their documentation to learn about it
< 1568889394 807153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the " 1 " should be "¹", there was a character encoding mishap
< 1568889401 486278 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a reference to a footnote
< 1568889413 461206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why it's not REX.R, though.
< 1568889431 534385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me the opcode reg field seems a lot like the modr/m reg field.
< 1568889447 279475 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a prefix of capital A to switch to the other set of punctuation marks" => actually it's more like a prefix  in utf-8
< 1568889479 581401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unicode U+00C2
< 1568889480 541704 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Â
< 1568889526 864540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: your statement is really confusing, not because I don't understand it, but because trying to make sense of it means mixing character encodings in a really weird way
< 1568889544 855335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you assuming that the encoding is UTF-8-as-Latin-1 mojibake?
< 1568889563 846760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although mojibake isn't really a character encoding, it's something else
< 1568889576 966499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/encoded/ mojibake is a character encoding
< 1568889594 326817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to set the locale to, say, "UTF-8 misinterpreted as Latin-1 and then encoded in UTF-8"
< 1568890171 908424 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually Latin-2 would be the appropriate set to mojibake into in Hungary
< 1568890192 320372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but C2 is still  there
< 1568891111 142725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason to target 32-bit x86 nowadays?
< 1568891150 966684 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1568891223 559903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current attitude towards 32-bit x86 is to not worry about performance at all on it
< 1568891233 315005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll write programs that are only efficient on 64-bit systems
< 1568891246 441588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will they still work on 32-bit systems? 
< 1568891261 888476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the source code level, yes
< 1568891270 997461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't normally write raw asm, but when I do it's processsor-specific
< 1568891450 489986 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there such a thing as processor-indipendent asm?
< 1568891522 218891 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "UTF-8 misinterpreted as Latin-1 and then encoded in UTF-8" is called double-utf, but yes
< 1568891540 91802 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: WebAssembly is created as that
< 1568891545 848308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were a few attempts before then that didn't catch on
< 1568891552 341411 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the more common version is à before a letter to turn it to an accented letter
< 1568891554 453136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, C gets described at that sometimes, but I don't think it's an accurate description
< 1568891667 766764 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it might not make more sense, but using a REX prefix to switch punctuation marks also doesn't make much sense
< 1568891704 486441 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's certainly various degrees of processor-dependedness, in the sense that you can target the lowest common denominator of a specific instruction set.
> 1568892088 721329 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salary program14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66259 5* 03A 5* (+410) 10Created page with "The [[Salary program]] is a well-known [[Golf]]-oriented [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Program_forms program form] on [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ CGCC] [https:/..."
< 1568892272 756063 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: There's also LLVM.  The idea is quite old (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-code_machine)
< 1568892381 200917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC LLVM isn't portable, in the sense that different targeted platforms will have slightly differently looking LLVM
< 1568892533 454184 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, LLVM is lower level in the sense that if you want to generate good optimized machine code through LLVM, then you already optimize the LLVM code you write to the particular cpu and instr set and other circumstances. In particular, you tell LLVM where to use 32-bit integers and where 64-bit ones, and that's a decision that depends on your cpu.
< 1568892577 571511 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems like a rather ungenerous definition of "portable" to me
< 1568892586 11615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's portable in the sense of being able to transpile any LLVM IR onto any CPU
< 1568892606 773659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, more, compile/assemble, I guess
< 1568892611 205202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the right verb for this is
< 1568892663 195020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurred me recently that "compiler", "assembler", and "linker" all have roughly the same meaning.
< 1568892665 801664 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, it bills itself as portable, and it's fairly widely used, so one should at least be aware of it.
< 1568892704 29621 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also billed itself as low-level, and as a virtual machine.
< 1568892735 111697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think of LLVM as a universal asm because I didn't think of it as an asm
< 1568892999 175695 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk but the first line of the manual is "This document is a reference manual for the LLVM assembly language."
< 1568893062 840837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568894103 884448 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The LLVM modules generated by clang aren't portable in the sense that they contain datalayout -- https://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#data-layout -- and target triple -- https://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#target-triple -- specifications that identify the target processor. But I think those are optional, and it's probably possible to write LLVM modules that are applicable to more than one target.
< 1568894241 373024 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: when LLVM bills itself portable, doesn't that mean that it can produce output machine code to multiple architecutres, but not necessarily from the same input? just like how gas and the rest of binutils are portable, they can assemble ARM assembly code to ARM machine code or x86_64 assembly code to x86_64 machine code, but not ARM assembly
< 1568894241 877540 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :code to x86_64 machine code.
< 1568894264 764735 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, that's what ais hints about the word "portable" I guess
< 1568894336 65367 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIUI, the LLVM IR also encodes assumptions about the platform's ABI if you call anything external to the program, so it's not portable in that sense.
< 1568894359 422360 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://llvm.org/docs/FAQ.html#can-i-compile-c-or-c-code-to-platform-independent-llvm-bitcode "Also, since many platforms define their ABIs in terms of C, and since LLVM is lower-level than C, front-ends currently must emit platform-specific IR in order to have the result conform to the platform ABI."
< 1568894424 270045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a self-contained program written in the LLVM IR might be "portable" to some degree.
> 1568894685 518487 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Greentext14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66260&oldid=55935 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+9) 10
> 1568894743 527963 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Template:WIP14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66261&oldid=66184 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (-2) 10
> 1568895034 822262 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Salary program14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66262&oldid=66259 5* 03A 5* (+209) 10
< 1568895061 873673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568895209 391084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so LLVM is portable as a language in its own right, but can't be portable when used as a backend for something else because the "something else" may need to vary things based on the details of the platform and LLVM can't vary them the same way
< 1568895412 782993 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I think it's more like that most of LLVM is portable, so it's portable enough that you can write working programs that LLVM can compile on multiple systems, but that's not typically what you do, because you use LLVM to make optimized programs, and you can't write good optimized program that LLVM compiles from the same source on multiple
< 1568895413 261527 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :platforms
< 1568895425 830675 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is even true to a lesser extent for C or C++ actually
< 1568895439 428215 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more true for LLCM
< 1568895444 12631 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for LLVM
< 1568895514 713993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: well, you could write the program in "high-level" LLVM and optimise it for the target platform
< 1568895524 402843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like LLVM translates directly into asm anyway, e.g. you need to do register allocation
< 1568895609 262905 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and LLVM knows a lot about the platform-specific stuff, it abstracts away most of the unportability, but not all of it
< 1568895645 31503 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't really know much about this, because luckily I don't write programs in LLCM
< 1568895651 484802 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in LLVM -- darn, I can't type this
< 1568895665 358865 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for serious compiler maintainers to know about
< 1568896082 335428 :APic!apic@apic.name QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1568897228 47630 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol... I'm reading the intel x86 architecture reference manual. it has some statements that are necessary but still funny.
< 1568897257 948597 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568897319 436296 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, it has a note about when you execute from memory that is also used as paging table entries, and how when the cpu updates the dirty and accessed bits of those page table entries because of paging, it has less guarantees than usual about self-modifying code
< 1568897379 538088 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they need this statement because, for legacy 386 compatibility reasons, x86 provides very strong guarantees about the semantics of self-modifying code (even though the performance of such is abysmal)
< 1568897447 858439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :executing a page table is admittedly not something I had thought of
< 1568897479 827808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are similarly silly cases, like executing an interrupt vector, which are at least likely to be easy to implement
< 1568897520 388460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although I imagine that in some architectures, interrupt vectors are actually executable code rather than a list of addresses)
< 1568897657 97816 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, 6502 has executable interrupt vectors, as in, the interrupts jump to a fixed address rather than load the jump address from a fixed address
< 1568897977 870703 :APic!apic@apic.name JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568899335 188622 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also has the ridiculous statement "Processors need not implement any TLBs." about caching page translation info
< 1568899415 764339 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568899435 773217 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc_0002_1.pdf
< 1568899608 514790 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, hi
< 1568899722 864490 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: hi
< 1568899781 353783 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thought I've been having: currently, assemblers do two jobs, one is converting asm to machine code, the other is resolving things like jump destinations and .align directives and the like
< 1568899789 145506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the latter job duplicates what the linker does
< 1568899827 765014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it would make sense for assemblers to /only/ do the first job, and the linker is the only thing that does the second
< 1568899847 483686 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for performance, this means that you would probably want to link individual object files as they were created, and then link those object files together later in the build)
< 1568899871 625702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :current linkers support incremental link, I think, even though it isn't the normal way to do things; this would be an extreme version of that
< 1568899970 707820 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the advantage of doing things this way is that the exact layout of an object file in memory could be deferred to later in the build if necessary
< 1568899986 391952 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that would be rather inefficient in the common case, when and a lot of references are quickly resolved by the assembler, and would be inefficient to emit symbolically to the linker, since the linker would have to do all the tasks of the second pass of the assembler, plus the assembler is usually not run separately but is built into
< 1568899986 849734 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler in such a way that it doesn't go through actual assembly syntax.
< 1568900034 263721 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the assembler resolves all the local references, so the linker only moves larger sections around
< 1568900091 738411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the advantage of leaving the local references unresolved is that you can move small parts of the code around, e.g. to substitute a short jump for a long jump in the case where the target happens to be nearby
< 1568900105 8129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :present compilers have to leave enough space for the longest possibile jump
< 1568900113 483292 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much this matters may depend on the cpu architecture of course, in some older cpus you'd have a lot of local references because there are few ways to avoid jumps and you have to load large constants as memory accesses rather than immediates.
< 1568900146 107844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your large constants are memory accesses you'd often be loading from rodata anyway (= you need the linker)
< 1568900154 382740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess there's an argument for putting them in text
< 1568900200 631333 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think that will often happen, because each function (in the low-level sense) will be assembled to the same section, and you use calls and returns rather than jumps between functions, and those can't be short even if the functions are close to each other.
< 1568900221 803571 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's an opportunity for a short jump, then the functions will be compiled together at the optimizer and inliner state already.
< 1568900224 324245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail calls are jumps, in some calling conventions
< 1568900276 325234 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, you can't load all the constants from rodata, because then you have to load their _address_ somehow, and you'd have to load those from rodata too etc
< 1568900290 731055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have relocations
< 1568900299 315005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see, assuming PIC
< 1568900316 603904 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then rodata probably isn't in a constant space relative to text due to ASLR, and you don't want to do the relocation at runtime
< 1568900321 360249 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on those older cpus, you load the long immediates from the text with IP-relative or similar accesses. you can still do that on modern cpus like x86_64, it's just usually not worth because they have more convenient immediates.
< 1568900327 597209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, hmm
< 1568900336 289031 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for old cpus which don't have a way to load a full immediate
< 1568900340 390157 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe rodata is in a constant location relative to text, because rodata is constants too
< 1568900342 123369 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a full sized immediate
< 1568900344 266628 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a small one
< 1568900354 755193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: modern CPUs can't load full sized immediates either
< 1568900368 345862 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but they're closer to it
< 1568900386 841715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86-64 largest possible immediate is 64 bits for movabs, largest register is typically 256 bits wide
< 1568900421 91621 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but the 64 bit load is enough to give the address into anywhere else at least
< 1568900486 515001 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you're right, you could load such constants (or even index small tables) from the code section and place them close to the function
< 1568900494 81061 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that still usually works on x86_64
< 1568900797 177064 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, by putting the read-only data and the code into the same section (but not in the same cache line), you guarantee that they're no farther than 2**31 bytes, so you can access them with a simple and efficient RIP-relative access, and the linker doesn't have to translate the addresses
< 1568900830 263977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering if it's bad to have executing code and read-only data on the same cache line
< 1568900858 43283 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviously bad to have executing code and writable data on the same cache line, but there's no obvious reason why in the former case you couldn't just load it into both L1 caches
< 1568900966 2901 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, the thing that inspired the "let's do the linking outside the assembler" idea was that I was reading about how TLS is implemented
< 1568900986 559061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are four different ways to implement TLS, some of which are faster but less general, and the optimisation is done by the linker
< 1568901001 439948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means it has to delete code sequences from the executable and replace them by sequences of different length, sometimes
< 1568901018 397443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently this is implemented by leaving padding in the code so that the linker can overwrite it, but that seems ridiculous
< 1568901024 723426 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, if the linker moved around code in small parts, then the assembler would have to be able to tell it not only how to move the code, but also how to adjust the detailed debugging information and the unrolling info. that would make the linker even more complicated than it already is.
< 1568901090 836886 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: same cache line => only bad in the sense that it can waste the L1 cache, because the L1 cache is separated to an L1D cache that is used for data access only and an L1C cache that is used for code access only, and both are small, so you'd have a half-used entry for the same cache line in both; 
< 1568901120 173730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it depends on whether you can fit other useful data into the same cache line
< 1568901128 883444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not there's no actual loss
< 1568901145 61043 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus to some amount the same thing for decode caches and branch prediction and branch target caches, but those usually work at 16-bit sized units rather than 64-bit ones currently
< 1568901152 908587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, depending on where the code ends
< 1568901174 186289 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have 1½ cache lines of code and ½ a cache line of data, you want to merge them into 2 cache lines, not separate them into 3
< 1568901197 88984 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as either way you end up with 3 cache lines between the two L1 caches
< 1568901201 617593 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, if you can fit read-only data without losing space, then it's not bad, but separating data and code to separate cache lines is a good enough general rule and you rarely lose from following it
< 1568901230 436015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not have rodata in a fixed location relative to text, and put the constants in rodata?
< 1568901275 377830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"rodata in a fixed location relative to text" is probably required anyway (especially if you don't have a PIC base register), otherwise the references to data from rodata will be too expensive
< 1568901275 752717 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in fact it may make sense to separate them to separate pages, at least on some cpus... I don't recommend the recommendations taht the optimization manual says
< 1568901297 296778 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even if they're in separate pages, they can be within 2**31 bytes from each other, which is still useful
< 1568901304 568524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, many compilers seem to prefer using multiple movabs instructions
< 1568901382 499515 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sort of, but putting them to fixed location can be done in the linker, which places those two segments and resolves references between them at link time. I think it could even place them within 2**31 from enough (unless they're very large of course)
< 1568901447 238019 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple movabs instructions => sure, if you can use them, use them
< 1568901477 37755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, AMD doesn't use the term "movabs"
< 1568901480 682604 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that point it's a tricky call, can depend on what's tight in that part of the code, L1 cache accesses or decoding
< 1568901480 929843 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to them it's just a variant of the mov instruction
< 1568901495 840852 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does intel use it? I think they don't either\
< 1568901512 848336 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think movabs is just an AT&T assembly syntax thing
< 1568901521 176734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have thought movabs would decode quickly; it's easy to find the end of it, for example
< 1568901722 654766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x48, call 0x12345678
< 1568901726 342005 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `0'
< 1568901729 208701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x48; call 0x12345678
< 1568901731 226466 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 66 48 e8 00 00 00 00   data16 data16 callq 0x8
< 1568901743 631043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x48; call $0x12345678
< 1568901744 838156 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 66 48 e8 00 00 00 00   data16 data16 call 0x8
< 1568901745 998675 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not just about the speed of decoding, it's also that if you use, say, four movabses to load a 32 byte constant rather than a single 32-byte memory load, then you get longer code, which uses up more of the decoded cache
< 1568901767 656852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x48; callq $0x12345678
< 1568901768 819277 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 66 48 e8 00 00 00 00   data16 data16 call 0x8
< 1568901774 137013 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could also decode slowly, but that's less of a problem
< 1568901785 977256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder what's happening to the argument to call
< 1568901799 786607 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess most of the time the decoding won't be the problem
< 1568901804 389561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the µop cache
< 1568901823 670666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind-of crazy that something like that is beneficial
< 1568901829 661100 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that, and the other cache that runs very short loops, but you don't put constant loads in those
< 1568901905 41401 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the branch predictors on modern processors predict loop counts for loops with a small fixed loop count
< 1568901923 994279 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's beneficial only in intel cpus, not on amds, because intel has a broken decoder that only decodes one aligned 16-bit block of code per cycle, and if you write floating point machine learning code that never hits an L1 cache miss, then it will execute four floating-point add-multiplies in a clock cycle, and those four instructions are
< 1568901924 493058 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :longer than 16 bytes
< 1568901929 937630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably it'd make more sense just to have a processor instruction for a loop with a small fixed count, then the prediction could be perfect
< 1568901933 575202 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/16-bit/16-byte/
< 1568901997 357835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in AMD processors there are three decode units and an instruction can take up one, two, or all three of them (the three-unit instructions also cause a pipeline stall in the decode, so they're recommended against)
< 1568902028 556303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's how it worked last time I checked, it might have changed since
< 1568902100 569137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
< 1568902101 570759 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  2e 66 0f 1f 04 00   nopw %cs:(%rax,%rax,1)
< 1568902114 944376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not as long as I thought it would be
< 1568902159 627336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps there should be a VEX version of a NOP?
< 1568902173 924978 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"2E" for segment override, "66" for data size override, "0F 1F" for the opcode, "04" for mod/rm byte, "00" for SIB byte
< 1568902212 482258 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can add a displacement if you want a longer one
< 1568902221 956230 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and drop the segment override, that never helps
< 1568902274 918132 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the intel manual and the amd manual both describe what nops you should use, and the intel gives a 9-byte nop as the longest, but all the nops that are longer than one byte have an input dependency on a general register that you can choose
< 1568902290 847060 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amd version is easier
< 1568902342 228137 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, when writing or compiling actual code, you can use instructions that are technically not nops, but are fast and don't do anything that matters in the context of the particular code, such as zero a register
< 1568902381 898906 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works for shorter nops only I think, but there it may sometimes be easier than following intel's recommendations
< 1568902390 547887 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for longer nops I think you're out of luck
< 1568902426 24233 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0xc4, 0xe1, 0x79, 0x1f, 0x04, 0x00
< 1568902427 67201 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  c4 e1 79 1f   (bad)  \ 4:  04 00   add $0x0,%al
< 1568902441 864863 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no
< 1568902446 185526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an attempt to encode a NOP using VEX, just for fun
< 1568902459 436123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know you can't actually use VEX on non-SSE instructions)
< 1568902473 377118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it's in an opcode map that means the syntax exists, at least, the processors just reject it)
< 1568902475 419401 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like sub %r8w, %r8w
< 1568902493 81571 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1568902497 18675 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm sub %r8w, %r8w
< 1568902498 42524 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  66 45 29 c0   sub %r8w,%r8w
< 1568902501 546218 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shouldn't be word-sized
< 1568902506 292985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that isn't a no-op, of course
< 1568902510 393323 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be dword or qword size
< 1568902517 615871 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sub %r8d, %r8d
< 1568902521 765197 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is only three bytes
< 1568902529 947178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x67; and %r8, %r8
< 1568902530 864592 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  67 4d 21 c0   addr32 and %r8,%r8
< 1568902534 750760 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think you can do this only for two or three byte long nops
< 1568902555 12352 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe more if you zero an SSE register, but on newer cpus only
< 1568902556 846916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no reason you /can't/ stick an 0x67 prefix on there
< 1568902563 730015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if 0x66 would cause trouble
< 1568902572 572130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, both sub and and change flags
< 1568902579 137134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and is better because at least it doesn't change the register)
< 1568902598 868176 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't the 0x67 prefix cause a decoding slowdown?
< 1568902615 210523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure; it's used so rarely that maybe it does
< 1568902637 334501 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it doesn't _read_ the flags, and doesn't _read_ the registers, it only writes them
< 1568902651 737439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely lea is the best instruction, anyway?
< 1568902686 137852 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm leaq 0(%r8), %r8
< 1568902688 574293 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4d 8d 00   lea (%r8),%r8
< 1568902697 66685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use a 4-byte displacement there
< 1568902706 216733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm leaq 0(%r12), %r12
< 1568902707 190193 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4d 8d 24 24   lea (%r12),%r12
< 1568902710 296455 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on newer cpus, you can get four and five byte instructions to zero an xmm register
< 1568902732 208973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be terrible for performance in some cases, initializing the FPU takes ages
< 1568902740 700385 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's switched off for power-saving purposes
< 1568902745 219633 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably bad for power drain, too)
< 1568902754 168659 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, lots of things use vector registers nowadays
< 1568902769 609366 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm leaq 0x12345678(%r12), %r12
< 1568902770 631185 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4d 8d a4 24 78 56 34 12   lea 0x12345678(%r12),%r12
< 1568902780 689332 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more likely, if you're using 32-byte ymm registers and you suddenly zero a 16-byte one
< 1568902799 128498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm .byte 0x4d, 0x8d, 0xa4, 0x24, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
< 1568902800 240384 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4d 8d a4 24 00 00 00 00   lea 0x0(%r12),%r12
< 1568902806 201028 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lea is the best instruction" => again, that depends on what for and where
< 1568902806 499214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be a true NOP, I think
< 1568902814 627422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and might be pretty fast to both decode and run
< 1568902826 249037 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't play well with 0x66 prefixes, though
< 1568902940 657190 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think on intel it's strictly worse than nopw 0(%rax,%rax,1)
< 1568902970 657639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to AMD, an lea runs in one cycle if it only has one register and no scale on the LHS
< 1568902983 843991 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean worse than nopw 0(%r12,%r12,1)
< 1568902992 195374 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry
< 1568902997 311754 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :worse or equal, obviously
< 1568902998 80583 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, on AMD (and probably also Intel), a nop runs in zero cycles (the only time it spends is the time spent in decode)
< 1568903043 622953 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that only applies to 0x90 nop, though
< 1568903056 943040 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why the recommended pattern on AMD is 0x66 0x66 0x66 0x90
< 1568903062 252865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeated to fill space
< 1568903077 968742 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the eight-byte nop doesn't execute, the only cost it has is that it has a false _read_ dependency on %r12, so it won't be scheduled until the value of %r12 is available
< 1568903105 369766 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't actually compute the address or attempt access the memory if I understand correctly
< 1568903123 71518 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it doesn't even tie up any execution core, but that doesn't typically matter
< 1568903128 93798 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/core/unit/
< 1568903139 217239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x90 NOP has the benefit that it isn't scheduled at all, though
< 1568903186 122928 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas an instruction like sub %r12d,%r12d is three bytes long, doesn't depend on any input register, and only writes flags, not any register in execution
< 1568903204 447280 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x90 nop is very magical
< 1568903205 16933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does, it writes 0 in %r12d
< 1568903222 649364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean sub $0, %r12d
< 1568903224 27352 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the effect writes the register, but the execution units and the register file don't know that
< 1568903238 337675 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's handled in decoding/scheduling by renaming the register
< 1568903256 54314 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that %r12 will refer to a zero register rather than whatever entry contained the value before the instruction
< 1568903264 898072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see, in that case you should be using xor I think
< 1568903272 201871 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xor vs sub doesn't matter
< 1568903284 961596 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does also write the register for the purpose of dependencies (but doesn't read)
< 1568903298 854888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't the processors that special case sub-of-itself also special case mov 0?
< 1568903314 496175 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, but I'm not sure
< 1568903325 538074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mov $0 seems to be superior in two ways: a) it doesn't change flags (thus removing potential false dependencies on flags), b) the encoding is longer
< 1568903349 732860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq 0x00000000, %r12d
< 1568903350 729491 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `movq' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `movq'
< 1568903352 660958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq 0x00000000, %r12
< 1568903353 666200 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4c 8b 24 25 00 00 00 00   mov 0x0,%r12
< 1568903363 596555 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno
< 1568903384 617091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it depends on how the 0 is encodedd
< 1568903388 656264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq 0x00, %r12
< 1568903389 723063 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4c 8b 24 25 00 00 00 00   mov 0x0,%r12
< 1568903398 192652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I don't think there is an 8-bit mov into a non-8-bit register
< 1568903404 576306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movzxq 0x00, %r12
< 1568903409 920617 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: unsupported syntax for `movzx' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: invalid instruction suffix for `movzx'
< 1568903413 783779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movzx 0x00, %r12
< 1568903416 157532 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  4c 0f b6 24 25 00 00 00 00   movzbq 0x0,%r12
< 1568903428 838991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one probably isn't optimized, to be fair
< 1568903440 209348 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I forgot the $
< 1568903442 33168 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a long nop, I'd also suggest prefetcht2 0, which is 8 bytes long
< 1568903443 933996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it segfaults :-)
< 1568903448 689007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movq $0x00, %r12
< 1568903449 802676 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  49 c7 c4 00 00 00 00   mov $0x0,%r12
< 1568903452 572407 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can be 9 byte if you add a redundant REX prefix
< 1568903461 768928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movzxbq $0x00, %r12
< 1568903462 745933 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `movzxbq $0x00,%r12' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: no such instruction: `movzxbq $0x00,%r12'
< 1568903473 974851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :movzx doesn't allow an immediate, right
< 1568903484 778363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm movzbq $0x00, %r12
< 1568903485 949272 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `movzb' \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: operand size mismatch for `movzb'
< 1568903489 893626 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Lykaina 
< 1568903493 640840 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: r12 is callee-saved, that's why it segfaults
< 1568903497 870044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it helps if you get the instruction name right, but not enough ;-)
< 1568903505 217106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: no, I dereferenced NULL, that's why it segfaults
< 1568903509 534741 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1568903534 915645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find the "numbers are memory addresses by default" pattern pretty unintuitive
< 1568903569 391859 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could also use a two-byte short jump as a nop of between 2 and 120something bytes long
< 1568903611 495771 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that's also not always applicable, it works best if you have no other jump in the 16-byte block
< 1568903632 154906 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that, I'm not sure how all that works
< 1568903729 354305 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an unconditional two-byte jump?
< 1568903747 623964 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp 0x8
< 1568903749 77934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  e9 00 00 00 00   jmpq 0x5
< 1568903755 237554 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp $0x8
< 1568903756 411667 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  e9 00 00 00 00   jmp 0x5
< 1568903768 528044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp a; .align 8; a: nop
< 1568903770 379578 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  eb 06   jmp 8  \ 2:  66 0f 1f 44 00 00   nopw 0x0(%rax,%rax,1) \  \ 0000000000000008 : \ 8:  90   nop
< 1568903774 339902 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there is
< 1568903904 603184 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1568903990 913852 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you search the web for static deadlock detection you get papers on statically detecting deadlock in Go, Java, C with pthreads, C#, Erlang, the Linux kernel, and a language called "SHIM"
< 1568904046 945384 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd way to do that.
< 1568904050 537322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… Rust doesn't guarantee deadlock-freedom, so that would be an obvious language to try
< 1568904051 770627 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no unconditional jump with 16-bit offset by the way, despite that there are conditional jumps with 16-bit offset, all for historical reasons
< 1568904052 667885 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm jmp .+8
< 1568904053 582341 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  eb 06   jmp 0x8
< 1568904066 745193 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the basic idea is simple - every place you acquire a resource, check what resources you already could've acquired. Form a graph. If it's got a cycle, you've got a problem.
< 1568904077 957192 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like that anyway
< 1568904083 205841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wib_jonas: conditional and unconditional jumps normally have different rules on what offset sizes they allow, not just on x86
< 1568904125 559058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that boils down to the well-known algorithm of "always take locks in a specific order"
< 1568904142 183171 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 8-bit unconditional jump comes from the original 8086, or perhaps before, yet it's still actually useful on x86_64
< 1568904152 553079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a Valgrind plugin that looks for locks being taken in an inconsistent order at any point during the program lifetime, even if no actual deadlock happens
< 1568904171 821117 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure
< 1568904179 97111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an 8-bit unconditional jump is frequently used to implement "else", so it makes sense that it'd still be around
< 1568904231 587740 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it comes from before: the z80 already had an unconditional jump with 8-bit offset
< 1568904282 434294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the 6502, I think unconditional jumps are 16 bits (absolute, not offset), conditional jumps are 8-bit (offset)
< 1568904317 617600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 16-bit-address processor so you don't need any more bits than that
< 1568904508 457827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the LLVM spec: there's a lot of behaviour that's target-specific in subtle ways, but so far I haven't seen anything that forces you to use it
< 1568905812 299429 :wib_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
> 1568907147 573103 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Seed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66263&oldid=66019 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+117) 10
> 1568907192 248138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Palaiologos14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66264&oldid=63560 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+69) 10
< 1568908159 144732 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o
< 1568908408 452394 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
> 1568908844 606323 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hexar14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66265&oldid=66245 5* 03Enchant3d 5* (+41) 10
> 1568908915 216943 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hexar14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66266&oldid=66265 5* 03Enchant3d 5* (-20) 10
< 1568909656 870045 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :effing fire drill in my building. couldn't find my keys and got locked out
< 1568909686 876216 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since then, found keys after being let back in)
< 1568909740 9039 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fun fun
< 1568910131 533305 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568911046 373812 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568911140 912472 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568911141 184619 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568911215 340937 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568911265 620438 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568912754 87644 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568913318 271004 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568913441 378602 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568913496 63748 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, shachaf asked for one of your esolangs in https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-09-18.html#lgd
< 1568913587 715055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, in MiniMAX commands have a read word and a write word so overlapping them is the only way to produce a memory location that can be both read and written
< 1568914297 703403 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1568914305 747843 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/volatile_void/status/1174015227924570119 "Little-known fact “NaN” is a recursive acronym, it stands for “Not a NaN”"
< 1568914353 199811 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say "how can an x be a not-x" but then realised that NaN isn't comparable with itself
< 1568914353 637903 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's cleverer than it seems
< 1568914410 969840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly
< 1568914420 867578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like those numbers used in bistromathic drives
< 1568914474 828144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is it the case that NaN != NaN? or just that !(NaN == NaN)?
< 1568914480 513125 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :both of those
< 1568914608 467228 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh
< 1568914614 146390 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one you ais might be qualified to answer
< 1568914618 858979 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1174039625347846144
< 1568914628 373329 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Serious question: what plausible use cases exists for a “char ****p” (or more indirections)? I only once used a “char ***p” and that already seemed very contrived (and I was confused every time I re-read this code)."
< 1568914812 145983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure there is one
< 1568914823 954637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the void ***** referenced in Three Star Programmer's documentation is a joke
< 1568914884 565784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a page table is sort-of like a void ****** or so with a constant but large number of *s
< 1568915046 580236 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/boostorg/mpl/blob/develop/include/boost/mpl/assert.hpp#L222 uses a 13-star type
< 1568915087 102455 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard use for char *** is when you want to pass &argv to a function that wants to muck with it.
< 1568915122 172485 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: lol
< 1568915157 137912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: is that testing for compiler brokenness of some sort?
< 1568915205 295048 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, and the line above that is a typedef with 12-star pointer to pointer-to-member of the 13-star type, so that's effectively a 26-star type or something
< 1568915206 158370 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, no, it looks more like it's trying to come up with a type that isn't in use elsewhere in the program
< 1568915217 539256 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that's what they're doing
< 1568915303 509254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I write "int const x;" instead of "const int x;"?
< 1568915326 561601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it doesn't matter
< 1568915336 917379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're the same thing
< 1568915336 962377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "int const *x;", I suppose that's more relevant.
< 1568915357 499798 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they have the same meaning.
< 1568915379 186381 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always use "const int" for those, even though it requires you to change const placement when making fancier types
< 1568915379 669304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a code formatter taught me how to do it, I started always using *const (no whitespace) for situations where the pointer itself is const
< 1568915384 851393 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A program without whitespace is also "the same thing" as a program with whitespace, but you can still ask questions about it.
< 1568915387 153681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are writing code for an existing project, or your supervisor asks you to follow a certain coding style, write it in a way to match the style of that code or follow those recommedations. otherwise, write whatever.
< 1568915400 44906 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same is true for int *x; versus int* x;
< 1568915407 325824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I prefer "const int x;", "const int *x;", etc., because that makes it clearer that it's the pointer referent that's const, not the pointer itself
< 1568915435 290530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The idea of "int const x;" is that it's consistent with "int *const x;"
< 1568915472 359860 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, but these are points of coding style where even people who write good C/C++ programs don't agree, and they mostly came to the agreement that either is fine
< 1568915484 809529 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: What if I don't have a supervisor and I just want things to be good instead of bad?
< 1568915493 969651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but when you move up to "int const *const x;" the pattern doesn't feel like it holds any more
< 1568915495 217203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try not to write C/C++ polyglots.
< 1568915498 185673 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for some stupid whitespacing or style, people might complain if it's code that they'll read, but for this one, nobody will complain unless you have to match an existing coding style
< 1568915514 652323 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't "C/C++" undefined behaviour?
< 1568915533 392123 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1568915542 361601 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let's say C++ programs
< 1568915551 977708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! c float C = 4.0; printf("%f", C/C++);
< 1568915554 242421 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.250000
< 1568915557 718711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if shachaf asks about this in C programs, then I can't help much
< 1568915560 377348 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand C
< 1568915565 635177 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was expecting a warning
< 1568915593 20946 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :does `! c build with all the warnings on?
< 1568915624 389412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand C++.
< 1568915632 402180 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mostly understand C.
< 1568915646 313379 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think very few people understand C++.
< 1568915675 983711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: probably not; I actually wasn't expecting it to work at all
< 1568915729 202585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf '#include \nint main(void) { float C = 4.0; printf("%f", C/C++); }' | gcc -Wall -Wextra -x c /dev/stdin
< 1568915731 971344 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:40: warning: too many arguments for format [-Wformat-extra-args] \ /dev/stdin:2:55: warning: operation on ‘C’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]
< 1568915753 767462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf '#include \nint main(void) { float C = 4.0; printf("%f", C/C++); }' | gcc -fno-diagnostics-color -Wall -Wextra -x c /dev/stdin
< 1568915755 218272 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:40: warning: too many arguments for format [-Wformat-extra-args] \ /dev/stdin:2:55: warning: operation on ‘C’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]
< 1568915766 412545 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do it in C++ constexpr you might get useful information about UB.
< 1568915777 726352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` set -e; gcc -fdiagnostics-color=never -Wall -O -o tmp/a.out -x c - <<< $'#include\n''int main(void) { float C = 4.0; printf("%f", C/C++); return 0; }'; tmp/a.out # there is a warning
< 1568915779 103076 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​: In function 'main': \ :2:49: warning: operation on 'C' may be undefined [-Wsequence-point] \ 1.250000
< 1568915785 595562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you've been faster
< 1568915786 609690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf '#include \nint main(void) { float C = 4.0; printf("%f", C/C++); }' | gcc -fno-diagnostics-color -Wall -Wextra -x c /dev/stdin
< 1568915787 903007 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:40: warning: too many arguments for format [-Wformat-extra-args] \ /dev/stdin:2:55: warning: operation on ‘C’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]
< 1568915793 728097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` printf '#include \nint main(void) { float C = 4.0; printf("%%f", C/C++); }' | gcc -fno-diagnostics-color -Wall -Wextra -x c /dev/stdin
< 1568915796 514626 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/dev/stdin: In function ‘main’: \ /dev/stdin:2:49: warning: operation on ‘C’ may be undefined [-Wsequence-point]
< 1568915798 253642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go
< 1568915809 971021 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to look up -fdiagnostics-color=never , I didn't remember the option syntax
< 1568915811 545645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both printf(1) and my IRC client use % as an escape symbol
< 1568915820 742097 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: so did I, I just looked it up faster
< 1568915853 950160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :info is such a good documentation format in terms of the user experience (some of its internals are ridiculous, though)
< 1568915869 204492 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a filter that translates color escape sequences to IRC colors
< 1568915903 346983 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? I hate using info.
< 1568915944 55732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't use printf for this. I just use the $'foo' literals.
< 1568915973 816778 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: info as in the program, or info as in the format?
< 1568916020 294256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I think what gives the good user experience is when the docs are written in texinfo format well, which is hard to write, but when it's written that way, it compiles to multiple different formats including info, html, pdf, each of which you can read with multiple clients.
< 1568916026 346311 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"including"
< 1568916036 879400 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it compiles to info, html, pdf, but not much else.
< 1568916053 399491 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the program.
< 1568916088 453553 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that I can understand. read one of the outputs with a different client
< 1568916102 10414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very few other formats allow both index search (often in multiple indexes by subject) /and/ free text search /and/ have a hierarchical table of contents
< 1568916113 245688 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the html output produced is decent, not the one overloaded with client-side scripts that you see on the web these days
< 1568916126 575795 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found the appropriate gcc option by typing "idiagnostics-" and a newline
< 1568916133 806676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in about 5 seconds
< 1568916136 728372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ahem* chm
< 1568916139 661312 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can info produce man pages?
< 1568916161 283614 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I don't think so, at least not in a sane way
< 1568916163 468755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: in chm's predecessor, .hlp, the free text search took several minutes
< 1568916172 877325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that was likely related to the computers at the time
< 1568916216 775447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, AFAIK neither .chm nor .hlp allow the whole thing to be easily read in depth-first order (whereas info does)
< 1568916218 88170 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is chm basically just restricted html wrapped up in a compressed file with some extra info about the table of contents?
< 1568916222 412342 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568916250 801538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I don't know is how you can sanely export the extra info in some easily usable format
< 1568916262 973798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can export the html
< 1568916395 964105 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, there's a certain documentation format that I find somewhat annoying
< 1568916440 249193 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Documentation in UHS format, so that you don't accidentally reveal too much to the user.
< 1568916441 521501 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely when the help is embedded in the program, and you can print it by invoking it with like programname help topic, but you have to do it one node at a time, and it can be hard to find out what all the nodes are, plus you may have to iterate over multiple programs
< 1568916447 864669 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason, version control software uses this
< 1568916464 859393 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the most annoying for subversion, which has really good user reference documentation, but tucked away this way
< 1568916486 844787 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to iterate over all svn* programs, run them with help, then with help topic, then with help topic again for topics that are two levels deep
< 1568916508 536899 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg technically does it too, but it also comes with all that documentation installed as a single manpage, which negates all the drawbackzs
< 1568916510 956819 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: "man git-commit", etc.
< 1568916524 380647 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I'm not talking about git, only svn, hg, and fossil
< 1568916529 752729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK
< 1568916543 631573 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't understand why it's only version control software that do this
< 1568916562 100940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're copying svn
< 1568916575 216505 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only they had a command like programname help all, that would also fix the problem
< 1568916593 678438 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point I started to write a script to export all the docs from svn, but I haven't finished it
< 1568916599 295203 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"helpfull" is a flag with a good name.
< 1568916600 476510 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should do that so I can do full text searches
< 1568916607 7237 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yeah, that could work too
< 1568916607 681377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, a likely reason is that VCS is particularly likely to want to bundle a large number of commands with separate behaviour into one executable
< 1568916620 234887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: as long as (programname help) tells that that command exists
< 1568916622 600093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, busybox does this correctly
< 1568916670 421966 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not too familiar with busybox. I only use it when running the debian installer.
< 1568916697 536609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically one executable that implements cut-down versions of a lot of different commands
< 1568916709 249376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to benefit from being able to share code between them
< 1568916725 835826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it's a size-optimized minimal userland
< 1568916744 57547 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but for svn it's not even one executable, it's twenty, with zero or one or two levels deep help depending on which program it is
< 1568916773 481835 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow my system supports "man git commit", with a space.
< 1568916776 706802 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, you only need five of those twenty programs, but how would you know which five unless you can read their help?
< 1568916791 194603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, that's a little magic built into man
< 1568916808 362419 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Built in? That's scow.
< 1568916821 48681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anticompetitive.
< 1568916856 808594 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, busybox's documentation is comparable to the program itself
< 1568916857 328903 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be forced to show a dialog on first use listing possible alternatives.
< 1568916881 112735 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clear is documented by busybox as "Clear screen", not even a full stop
< 1568916885 159095 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: try (man apt get)
< 1568916894 449313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the manual page for clear(1) is one and a half pages
< 1568916918 590715 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the manual is shorter because the busybox programs usually have fewer options or features than the programs that they mimic though
< 1568916929 448644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1568916933 196126 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :busybox clear doesn't have any
< 1568916940 711855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, clear(1) only has three
< 1568916965 429060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of it is a discussion of the history of clearing screens
< 1568917038 258209 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, busybox actually is a complete userland, it has things like init and crond
< 1568917065 603220 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's its point, you put it on a disk with a libc plus a few device files and directories, you get a full tiny userland
< 1568917094 52322 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used in debian's generated initrd so you get a small rescue system if it can't mount root for some reason
< 1568917099 327294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also dpkg, which I guess makes sense if you're using it as a rescue system for Debian
< 1568917109 270001 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, busybox is configurable at compile time, so which programs it has may depend on which system
< 1568917114 692854 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably compile it to not have init
< 1568917176 391056 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:94f6:a8b7:5dd5:cb6a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568917187 558714 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :init isn't really big anyway, all the complicated parts are off-loaded to getty and login
< 1568917269 41952 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :complicated parts like setting up the serial terminal for logins when you don't know in advance what sort of modem and terminal the remote party has
< 1568917302 596571 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :setting environment variables from key=value entries that the user writes after their username
< 1568917331 214937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has mke2fs, which is a bit of a surprise and seems out of place
< 1568917341 946944 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :printing /etc/issue and interpreting all the possible escape sequences in ity
< 1568917352 566561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't want a cut-down simplified program to be making my filesystems
< 1568917352 602936 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why?
< 1568917361 136724 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mke2fs is exactly what you want on a rescue system
< 1568917370 492172 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be able to set up a real system, or repair a half-working one
< 1568917374 519566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as ext2 is pretty old by now and it doesn't to ext3/ext4
< 1568917386 567273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: why would you want to reformat a disk when repairing a half-working system?
< 1568917397 485178 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not a whole disk, just a partition, like a boot partition
< 1568917402 168483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as you're only going to have to rereformat it later using mkfs.ext4
< 1568917424 559081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and generally if I'm trying to solve a problem, I'd expect reformatting things to make it worse, not better
< 1568917428 12176 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a temporary fs to which you copy files from some cds or network 
< 1568917443 153467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fsck (which it doesn't have) would be a much more useful program to include
< 1568917447 323582 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has a getty as well.
< 1568917462 933352 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: obviously you don't want to reformat a part of the disk from which you want to save the data
< 1568917468 4113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of the OpenWRT userland is in busybox.
< 1568917476 86590 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and mkfs is a much simpler smaller program than fsck
< 1568917494 345670 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: fsck has to know a lot of things about the file system, including handling all the invalid states that it shouldn't be in
< 1568917507 816892 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mkfs only has to know about valid and empty states, the rest is handled by the kernel afterwards
< 1568917555 48497 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as for ext2 vs ext3, you can add an ext3 journal to an existing ext2 partition afterwards with tune2fs
< 1568917560 98666 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the -j option
< 1568917581 220914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ext4 would be nice, but I think the mkfs required for that would be bigger
< 1568917608 231825 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Android uses toybox, which also has a bunch of programs: http://landley.net/toybox/status.html
< 1568917615 173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ext2 is a good enough common denominator for when you need a scratch filesystem to store things on but don't need it to be maximally efficient, just readable and writable by most software
< 1568917672 791478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even my custom dos bootfloppy has the format program to format a partition, both for this sort of temporary thing, or to bootstrap a bootable dos onto a hard disk
< 1568917747 609984 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that boot floppy is highly obsolete now
< 1568918133 155853 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, at some point I ran a system with the grub-l boot loader on a different disk from the root file system. in that case, if the hard disk with the boot loader breaks down, I can repair it by creating a boot partition on the other disk, format it to either ext[23] or vfat, and installing the grub-l boot loader and config files for it there. nowadays the simpler option would be to install grub2 
< 1568918139 149967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, but imagine the same thing before grub2 was stable.
< 1568918168 994889 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually my system is still configured that way, but there is a boot file system already on the other disk, so I don't have to create it)
< 1568918254 11937 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to stop using grub-l when I use a hard disk larger than 2 terabyte as root disk, but not before
< 1568918282 876705 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568918574 818718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568919399 952046 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568919673 846008 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
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< 1568920067 547728 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7999:3fd9:de7e:cd3e QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568920597 699110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568923281 363342 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what
< 1568923318 575855 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you recall what I said a few days ago about Sonic and Zelda?
< 1568923369 220863 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns out that in the Banjo-Kazooie video games, the name of the player characters are Banjo and Kazooie, Kazooie being the bird and Banjo the big creature. I never suspected that. Just what kind of Nintendo game is that to have such a title?
< 1568923566 844927 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:4479:369a:ec9a:4eb8 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1568923722 135999 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568925136 374909 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:50d3:2974:4353:5b98 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568926383 889590 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568927672 537769 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568927890 539300 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7999:3fd9:de7e:cd3e JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568929087 521073 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1568930413 909265 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568930455 852950 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the now-working arduino subset: http://sif.lesidhetree.com/sara/echidna/echidna-uno-doc_0003.pdf
< 1568931288 990201 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
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< 1568931770 881219 :atslash!~atslash@46.188.0.82 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1568932296 162461 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh by the way
< 1568932328 789241 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said earlier that at work, I finally have a windows installation where none of the software messages are localized to hungarian. 
< 1568932332 291775 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including office.
< 1568932367 192432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this almost bit me back. The result is that MS Word defaults to letter paper size, and I have to change that explicitly.
< 1568932930 659310 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1568933156 902593 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much time and money is wasted annually by the fact that letter and A4 are slightly different
< 1568933670 60415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: probably not much money, it just bothers the sense of aesthetic of geeks like us when people zoom documents down to fit the paper
< 1568933825 420959 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the form that I have to fill for sending registered mail on snailmail post is half a centimeter higher than the envelopes that you usually use as the outer layer of such mail, so if I put them together in a folder to be able to find the pair easily at the post office, the top and bottom of the form likely gets crumpled
< 1568933900 145642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the post office has been using the same form for decades, they probably have a huge warehouse filled with them because they were printed in a high quantity when they didn't yet know how unpopular the internet would make snail mail
< 1568933961 265712 :imode2!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568934029 519548 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1568934094 324960 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no! it's not the same warehouse full, because I have two different versions, and one of them refers to a government law dated to 2012
< 1568934100 687629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a web address
< 1568934137 649051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they still all have the checkbox saying package, despite that you need the other red form for packages, not this green form
< 1568934146 653100 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand 
< 1568934236 969418 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: too much
< 1568934265 134152 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have one of the versions on two different colored paper sheets, so they probably weren't all printed together
< 1568934297 618279 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, I think I have at least three different versions, even ignoring the paper color
< 1568934698 895038 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1568936306 870017 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568937794 448313 :olsner!~salparot@c80-217-180-83.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568938418 82662 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1568939467 667779 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1568940114 104738 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb
< 1568940121 16032 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568940859 966947 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568940873 771719 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :back
< 1568941031 100535 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the arduino mega version of echidna, it doesn't have an lcd attached, but it does have ethernet...
< 1568941065 874220 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i connected an ethernet/sd shield to it
< 1568941109 866896 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-kcmrbxzazslmdauo QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1568941168 64913 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568941168 850871 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-bkwicewywfvogshg JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568941178 872625 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1568941569 965744 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568944813 425821 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have everything in the arduino mega2560 version of echidna that is unrelated to the ethernet. now i have to find out how ethernet works on it.
< 1568944869 881566 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the arduino uno pdf for more information
< 1568945210 318915 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's identical to uno 0003 from L - Z i think
< 1568945226 760860 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :G - J are different
< 1568945877 783620 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, G,I,J,K are different
< 1568945954 892354 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1568947918 702112 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
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< 1568949123 925564 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did i come back on?
< 1568949341 724419 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Client Quit
< 1568954314 337204 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
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< 1568955742 40442 :hppavilion[1]!~omegasome@172.98.86.92 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568959345 598178 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1568960829 154719 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7999:3fd9:de7e:cd3e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568962891 523484 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568964057 250335 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way to implement 'swap' in terms of dup, drop, roll and last.
< 1568964078 903961 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(
< 1568964302 341836 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there _is_ a way to implement `roll` in terms of dup, swap, drop and last, though!
< 1568964364 931089 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568964775 426066 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:7999:3fd9:de7e:cd3e QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1568964848 835351 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup, drop, swap, last, begin, end, while, 1, 0, +, -, =
< 1568964861 959362 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could even drop `=`.
< 1568965053 430877 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-251.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1568965599 24748 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f839:dee4:8d79:2d51 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568965828 929874 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also probably drop dup.
< 1568965853 971058 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f839:dee4:8d79:2d51 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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< 1568966789 525829 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1568966959 598153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Spoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66267&oldid=56538 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+615) 10Took a couple of minutes to copy-paste an interpreter and link to trivial BF subst
< 1568967345 964349 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568968307 954154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-RLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66268&oldid=57764 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+141) 10Crosslinking
< 1568968381 731717 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning.
< 1568968785 361629 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Associativity and confluence are related: (a),(b),(c) => [ (a,b),c | a,(b,c) ] => (a,b,c)
< 1568970097 436652 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f839:dee4:8d79:2d51 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1568975155 426759 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 610 seconds
< 1568980432 441079 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/catseye/Nested-Modal-Transducers  <-- a reactive theory thing I've been working on
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< 1568980750 868749 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568980896 720080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :reactionary theory, hmm
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< 1568984201 2614 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568984971 928531 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568985190 752868 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1568986091 142035 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Lykaina 
> 1568986970 390979 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:InfiniteDonuts14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66269&oldid=65654 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+5) 10
> 1568987498 399951 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Raito9 5*  10New user account
< 1568988233 825519 :jakobrs!~jakob@180.92-220-13.customer.lyse.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1568988945 291630 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric
> 1568990638 661495 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66270&oldid=66219 5* 03Raito9 5* (+146) 10Added myself
> 1568990730 141526 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Advanced Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66271&oldid=65342 5* 03Raito9 5* (+5) 10Made some minor grammatical changes to sentences
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> 1568992212 269681 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66272&oldid=65844 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+71) 10
< 1568992667 692368 :jakobrs!~jakob@180.92-220-13.customer.lyse.net PART :#esoteric
> 1568994704 434939 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainflop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66273&oldid=66244 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+775) 10
> 1568994742 701748 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66274&oldid=66246 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (-11) 10/* F */
> 1568994780 341561 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66275&oldid=66274 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+16) 10/* B */
< 1568995156 641768 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
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< 1568997627 420487 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1568999589 308011 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569003823 39570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569003830 552297 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!
< 1569003854 400964 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my vacation! I'm traveling to N-R W starting tomorrow morning. I still have a lot of packing and stuff to do.
< 1569004125 318778 :iczero!iczero@hellomouse/dev/iczero QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569004125 318834 :BWBellairs!~bwbellair@hellomouse/dev/bwbellairs QUIT :Quit: boxmein's znc went down :(
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< 1569006572 586990 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi all! What do you use to make djvu files, if any?
< 1569006588 209458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: nice weather to you
< 1569006608 643838 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't make djvu files
< 1569006616 633730 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :today I made my first djvu ever
< 1569006637 250490 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also the second, the third, and the fourth is on its way
< 1569006668 937830 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what do the files depict?
< 1569006682 834098 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they’re using different modes)
< 1569006734 608308 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they depict a school textbook on a second foreign language
< 1569006787 972111 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, usual school, not university, I don’t remember what it’s called specifically)
< 1569006809 732687 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make a pdf of the Zichy Arany book. I almost have it too, I prepaired all the layout and all, I just got annoyed by the fact that either pdf wants to contain only baseline jpegs, not progressive ones, which would make the high-res pdf twice the size it should have, or this pdf writer software believes that.
< 1569006852 249371 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: :( unfortunate
< 1569006853 716884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "second foreign language"?
< 1569006887 845308 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a problem only for the high resolution scans, but I want a pdf that has the high resolution scans
< 1569006916 527642 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might also make a more compressed pdf with lower quality images, but only as an alternative
< 1569006984 657353 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: today in some places they study two languages, but one of them apparently more fiercely, and the other less, so this book is under 100 pages
< 1569007053 253699 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-25.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so it's a textbook that is beginner level at the foreign language, but for older students?
< 1569007102 976324 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I presume something like that (it’s on Deutch so I can’t say)
< 1569007405 894828 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :don’t know if it’s useful. My school English was not bad but I wouldn’t be able to chat here with only that, I think. The university course gave me something essential, as well as reading fiction
< 1569007531 630886 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I wouldn’t be lazy to deal completely with proper tense and article usage, I could even write well now
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< 1569023350 831647 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
> 1569024260 937358 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mobius14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66276&oldid=32348 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+244) 10/* Instructions */  Show sample instruction colours (RGB / CYMK)
> 1569024567 361179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Mobius14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66277&oldid=66276 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+0) 10correct Hz symbol
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> 1569048513 856310 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 214]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66278&oldid=63016 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+536) 10
< 1569048667 989192 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f839:dee4:8d79:2d51 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569049136 205339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66279 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+1465) 10Created page with "There is a set of scheduled subroutine calls, each on a given turn number, counting from 0 being the current turn and positive numbers are in future. On each turn, all subrout..."
> 1569049344 142497 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66280&oldid=66279 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+774) 10
< 1569049538 859026 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there should be a category on esolang wiki for non-interactive I/O.
< 1569049888 444469 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see my [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 2]] and [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 3]] esolang and also what can it be called?
> 1569050033 521079 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Sandbox14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66281&oldid=66272 5* 03A 5* (+30) 10
> 1569051714 883666 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07String14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66282&oldid=51803 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+48) 10
> 1569052077 68367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66283&oldid=66280 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+96) 10
> 1569052113 881820 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Zzo38/Untitled 314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66284&oldid=66283 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+65) 10
< 1569052455 585537 :Star651!44309158@c-68-48-145-88.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569053140 261775 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569053208 467420 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66285&oldid=35260 5* 03Star651 5* (+484) 10/* suggestion */
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< 1569058264 673452 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569062815 393379 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Imperative14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66286 5* 03A 5* (+650) 10Created page with "[[Imperative]] is a minimalist language designed to fit into the definition of an imperative language. == Definition == 1.Imperative programming  Most imperative languages sup..."
> 1569063172 108702 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Imperative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66287&oldid=66286 5* 03A 5* (+332) 10
> 1569063205 602243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Imperative14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66288&oldid=66287 5* 03A 5* (+68) 10
> 1569069924 679451 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07UsableSeed14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66289 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+1142) 10Created page with "UsableSeed is a language based Seed. Programs only contain two instructions - length and random seed, separated by a space. To execute a Seed program, the seed is fed into a [..."
> 1569069992 121117 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07UsableSeed14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66290&oldid=66289 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+55) 10
< 1569071009 571831 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569072332 642537 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07B****f***14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66291 5* 03MiroslavRD 5* (+23) 10Redirected page to [[Brainfuck]]
< 1569074086 698552 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :precious pseudo-PG-13 redirects
< 1569074159 611294 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if people aren’t satisfied with the various obfuscations and abbreviations that do already exist
< 1569074204 75250 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :who in their sane mind would want to write B****f*** instead of BF if they need a censored name
< 1569074228 982036 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : /rant off
< 1569075711 367579 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569075908 973038 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:f839:dee4:8d79:2d51 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1569079199 960055 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-akvnlikcrjiqwswe JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569079400 697208 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07UsableSeed14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66292&oldid=66290 5* 03Ais523 5* (+4) 10many readers won't know what 05AB1E is; redlink it so that if a page about it is written, it'll provide that informatioin
< 1569084112 881534 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569084147 417728 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569084286 280653 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1569084576 788920 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: The people who like to write it in long form
< 1569084663 7262 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I agree this is not completely without merit, but still they could write it explicitly :P
< 1569084731 902869 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should not need to be censored, but some people like to do anyways.
< 1569085993 142243 :ocharles_!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086141 765551 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086171 716009 :mynery!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086421 260394 :Effilry!znc@freenode/staff/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086442 507909 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086442 775808 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086442 975240 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086443 99405 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086443 205897 :haavard!root@haavard.me QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086443 498854 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :*.net *.split
< 1569086452 621627 :ocharles_!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles NICK :ocharles
< 1569086464 548992 :mynery!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com NICK :myname
< 1569086723 597010 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086831 588525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569086890 810376 :haavard!root@haavard.me JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569089323 118767 :Effilry!znc@freenode/staff/firefly NICK :FireFly
< 1569089608 455110 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569089757 867388 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569092854 513002 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which error number from sysexits.h should be used in case of a memory allocation error?
< 1569093277 68426 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1569094098 567426 :andrewtheircer!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569094133 154367 :andrewtheircer!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1569094292 150105 :andrewtheircer!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs NICK :andrewtheircer_
< 1569094467 985540 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :w
< 1569094702 730793 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569094740 572237 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569096416 168505 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569096659 573716 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569096828 773043 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1569096854 664914 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569097581 734716 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569097772 755301 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi imod
< 1569099165 336860 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569099334 531701 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569100487 871313 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569101160 767142 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :ewelp
< 1569101383 284905 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569101453 894926 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@botsnack
< 1569101453 931444 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1569101726 602532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a less appropriate channel, but only slightly, so I may as well ask here too: does anyone here know of a way to do a string eval in moderl Perl without using the letter 'e'
< 1569101739 17056 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one nice thing about asking in #esoteric rather than #perl is that you don't have to attempt to justify what you're doing)
< 1569101837 381094 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm, b_jonas is the most likely person to know, and they are not here.
< 1569101859 736077 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :good afternoon
< 1569101862 525299 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it doesn't hurt to ask, of course)
< 1569101864 572332 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a nigerian programmer
< 1569101873 594737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that b_jonas would be a good person to ask
< 1569102025 431609 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I only know of eval and s///e, so I can't really help.
< 1569102087 662249 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect everything I just wrote was redundant.)
< 1569102303 560498 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :is lemonlimeskull here
< 1569103065 582028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! perl print qx<$^X -E $_ $_>for q<'print q[print qx<$^X -E $_ $_>for q<],chr 39,$ARGV[0],chr 39,">"'>
< 1569103066 490675 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :print qx<$^X -E $_ $_>for q<'print q[print qx<$^X -E $_ $_>for q<],chr 39,$ARGV[0],chr 39,">"'>
< 1569103074 893537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no lowercase e :-)
< 1569103098 90544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#perl have come up with ideas for removing the capital E too
< 1569103106 875410 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569103564 255552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569103636 963656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569103712 49105 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm
< 1569104445 414277 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569104800 618602 :andrewtheircer_!5d56fbd5@93-86-251-213.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569108563 957932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1569108621 115745 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66293&oldid=66270 5* 03Tetratrary 5* (+231) 10/* Introductions */
< 1569109061 516506 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1569109293 439063 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:9518:1517:596c:356f QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1569110188 968352 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569110436 892032 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of a idea of a new conspiracy for Magic: the Gathering, which could be:  Nonbasic objects with the chosen name are legendary.  (You could also do this with other supertypes, such as snow and world. Which are good depends on the rest of the set, I think.)
< 1569110479 360210 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569110665 715886 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or make it all three.)
< 1569110969 258538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And maybe also ongoing. The official rules currently do not do anything with ongoing except for schemes, but I think it should also suppress the similar state-based actions for Sagas and for phenomena, too.
< 1569110974 478926 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:dc65:7cdb:621d:23a6 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569112611 270863 :Hooloo42!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.
< 1569112789 717656 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569115050 359223 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569115783 131544 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-akvnlikcrjiqwswe QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1569116743 381160 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569117853 283501 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :void setDirection() {
< 1569117854 83401 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :  (Clockwise == true) ? (Step++) : (Step--);
< 1569117865 114499 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is using ?: for side effects like that scow? i'm pretty sure it's scow
< 1569117903 848339 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems kind of scow.
< 1569117908 559433 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit. I'd prefer `Step += Clockwise ? 1 : -1;`
< 1569117916 529187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was about to say that.
< 1569117925 844264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I was wodnering whether Clockwise could have other values
< 1569117948 893308 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Clockwise == true` implies it's of type `bool`, so it better not
< 1569117949 559545 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Clockwise: not found
< 1569117956 838309 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1569117958 171276 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's C++ actually
< 1569117962 519815 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anything could be anything or do anything
< 1569117979 231238 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but there are things that only a jerk would do.
< 1569118007 751511 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is arduino code
< 1569118022 620943 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of arduino code is written by non-programmers and is awful
< 1569118029 263258 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah.
< 1569118033 352394 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this particular code doesn't seem awful, just a little weird
< 1569118049 584838 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, arduino libs recklessly abuse overloading
< 1569118067 365568 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, a driver will have Foo(int, int) and Foo(int, int, int)
< 1569118075 928893 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, the first means to use the I2C bus and the second to use SPI
< 1569118083 25590 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I2C has 2 wires and SPI has 3 (or four)
< 1569118085 298334 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1569118092 428692 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you fucking kidding me
< 1569118103 9605 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly, no
< 1569118107 575811 :pikhq!~pikhq@70-59-9-101.hlrn.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck
< 1569118109 723257 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is far from universal but I've seen it
< 1569118118 340052 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was even an AdaFruit example lib :/
< 1569118143 341133 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :o well
< 1569118194 212530 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote  (one nice thing about asking in #esoteric rather than #perl is that you don't have to attempt to justify what you're doing)
< 1569118195 992158 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1334)  (one nice thing about asking in #esoteric rather than #perl is that you don't have to attempt to justify what you're doing)
< 1569118397 518323 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "< kmc> `addquote" == length "< HackEso> 1334)"
< 1569118399 942080 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : True
< 1569121081 966303 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569122123 28024 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07*14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66294&oldid=66023 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+2) 10minor grammatical changes
> 1569123185 357646 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66295&oldid=64912 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+64) 10/* General languages */
> 1569123374 126311 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66296&oldid=61028 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+77) 10/* Example programs */
> 1569123567 639390 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07APLWSI14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66297&oldid=66296 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (-78) 10Made a mistake.
< 1569127346 938310 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569127609 973352 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569128398 872731 :msippel415!~morgan@76-209-241-229.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569128401 356436 :msippel415!~morgan@76-209-241-229.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Client Quit
< 1569129709 702980 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569129858 16820 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569132503 439032 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
> 1569132620 440108 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5*  10New user account
> 1569132967 718288 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66298&oldid=66293 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+235) 10
> 1569133191 912991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66299&oldid=39718 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+20) 10
> 1569133414 427339 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66300&oldid=66299 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+36) 10
> 1569133429 403287 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66301&oldid=66300 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (-7) 10
< 1569134615 661314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A startling view of life in 1984! Forbidden love! Fear! Betrayal!" - blurb for Orwell's 1984
> 1569134868 49646 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66302&oldid=66301 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+47) 10/* Examples */
< 1569135931 511769 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1569136234 979195 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569136514 753916 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66303 5* 03A 5* (+1929) 10Created page with "[[4004]] is a simpllified Intel 4004 microprocessor architecture that does not involve ROM manipulation. == Reference == 
 Register groups  NameSize ( Bits ) Accumulat..."
> 1569136607 342473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66304&oldid=66303 5* 03A 5* (-300) 10Simplified a bit
> 1569137508 691856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66305&oldid=66304 5* 03A 5* (-320) 10
> 1569137651 316688 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66306&oldid=66305 5* 03A 5* (-85) 10
> 1569137767 554159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66307&oldid=66306 5* 03A 5* (-280) 10
> 1569137828 120968 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07400414]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66308&oldid=66307 5* 03A 5* (-35) 10
> 1569138374 72996 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66309&oldid=66302 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+2) 10
< 1569138719 956336 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1569145322 113107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66310&oldid=66309 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+1) 10
< 1569146133 539809 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ueqvrbdtvraktxac JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569152192 871232 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569152624 941360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66311&oldid=66310 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+42) 10
> 1569157902 14657 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66312&oldid=66311 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+0) 10
< 1569158536 927280 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@68.15.198.210 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569158647 800549 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66313&oldid=66312 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+40) 10/* Examples */
< 1569161296 261203 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569163285 476073 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@68.15.198.210 PART :#esoteric
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> 1569168283 494529 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66314&oldid=66228 5* 03Palaiologos 5* (+79) 10Add asm2bf
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< 1569177558 299732 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I figured out in Ghostscript it is possible with the "display" device for the C code to read and write the page raster, even before the page is finished. This can be advantageous with what I intend to do with TeXnicard (the ability to use PostScript for page layout but using TeX related stuff for text rendering; of course PostScript text rendering still works too)
< 1569183008 653775 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have subtraction, equality to zero and AND, is it possible to construct less than and greater than.
< 1569183018 941477 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanna say yes..
< 1569183034 329370 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can actually search for that.
< 1569183160 389949 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean a bitwise AND? You have not given all of the information I think
< 1569183563 595397 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a logical AND.
< 1569183580 691778 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry.
< 1569183648 671533 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume unsigned integers as well.
< 1569183657 447508 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't try to exploit overflow.
< 1569183675 761794 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but then what happen if you try to subtract a bigger number from a small number?
< 1569183705 789460 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :saturation, I suppose?
< 1569183727 27896 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + MAX == MAX in that scenario.
< 1569183766 70222 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the result is zero when it would otherwise be negative, then I think so.
< 1569183784 709172 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting.
< 1569183798 140182 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmm.
< 1569183924 843143 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, some time before, I thought of similar thing but I used only unindexable variables, counted loops (without early exit), and successor.
< 1569183956 861357 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'know what, assume you have the full pos/neg range.
< 1569183961 84418 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :-inf to +inf.
< 1569183967 888175 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually a lot harder.
< 1569184001 580888 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, then it is difficult, if you do not have saturation. I expect it won't be done with what you have, but, I don't know.
< 1569184126 600019 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling you could do it... the first target is less than another number.
< 1569184190 887935 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can construct multiplication and division with == 0.
< 1569186064 451390 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569187556 538811 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am concerned about my choice between symbolic/numeric instruction places and notation like state machines.
< 1569187589 793856 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter seems like a more general/unopinionated equivalent to the former.
< 1569187618 277171 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the concept of state machines are also much older than that of "atomized" variants of different machines.
< 1569187714 663360 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is one of combining them and specifying them linearly.
< 1569187731 324430 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :state machines have a convenient graphical notation, nonlinear.
< 1569187744 268282 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they don't have a _linear_ notation that makes things like composing machines from smaller machines convenient.
< 1569188017 610110 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this would be an equivalent linear notation for graphs.
< 1569189373 966977 :FraterEST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
> 1569189964 351623 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MineFriff14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66315&oldid=58059 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+29) 10
< 1569192180 177640 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Medieval Barber {1W} Creature - Human (1/1) ;; Haste ;; {1}, {T}: Create a 1/1 Leech creature token. ;; {2}: Prevent the next 1 damage to target damageable other than ~ this turn. Any player can use this ability.
< 1569193922 77364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sysexits.h does not explain EX_CONFIG very well; it just says "configuration error".
> 1569195747 26284 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Deadfish14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66316&oldid=66212 5* 03Voltage2007 5* (+573) 10/* Java */ Added an interpreter
< 1569196750 946693 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1569198343 288701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569198377 13468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I use EX_CONFIG in cases where the program couldn't meaningfully start because a configuration file it depends on was malformed or missing required informatoin
< 1569198452 259839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a more detailed explanation of sysexits.h in the BSD man page, https://man.openbsd.org/sysexits
< 1569198478 142873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not much more detailed
< 1569198598 733922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1569203662 576153 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : y'know what, assume you have the full pos/neg range. <-- not possible in a bounded number of instructions, i think.
< 1569203743 79846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you didn't say you had looping instructions, so not possible at all.
< 1569203823 547926 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, subtraction commutes with negating all numbers involved.  so the only thing to distinguish things if you negate everything is that AND gives 1 and not -1 (i assume)
< 1569203856 496531 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*only way
< 1569203965 403975 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if the numbers you start with are multiples of a googolplex
< 1569204216 973941 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will take you more than a googol operations to magnify a 1 into something of similar size - and only then do you have any chance of a distinguishing test result.
< 1569204462 207743 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if you start with numbers x, y, then every number you can construct will be of the form i*x + j*y + k (where the k comes from AND results)
< 1569204485 309188 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nnwermchbvrvpoiw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1569204525 853630 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this will be zero exactly when i*(-x) + j*(-y) + k is, _unless_ k is divisible by gcd(x,y).
< 1569204545 879443 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and nonzero
< 1569204559 266005 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it _might_ not be, if you're lucky.
< 1569204623 420614 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it will take you on the order of log (gcd(x,y)) operations to get a k that large.
< 1569205961 84011 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569206457 681656 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume I have looping instructions.
< 1569206473 172300 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :including "break if == 0"
< 1569206764 514684 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1569206835 777214 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hard to get certain people's attention in irc. (i refer to another channel on another network)
< 1569207120 103448 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ok then you can basically do something like: construct 1 using AND, then use it to increment/decrement counters to search for x and y among all numbers.
< 1569207173 239959 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and keeping track of which you find first and whether they're >0 or <0
< 1569207216 512602 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes. there's no way to speed that process up? I have access to constants and everything...
< 1569207255 414161 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really think so
< 1569207279 367596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting... you seem so limited. :\
< 1569207288 960832 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have <0 or >0.
< 1569208412 362720 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
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> 1569212469 122074 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66317&oldid=66313 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+2) 10/* Fibonacci sequence */
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> 1569213935 932687 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66318&oldid=66317 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+53) 10
> 1569214784 988051 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66319&oldid=66318 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+45) 10
< 1569215257 288362 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
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> 1569216001 753481 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66320&oldid=66319 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+39) 10/* Examples */
< 1569217711 152765 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569218672 708573 :tromp!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out
> 1569218756 959962 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66321&oldid=66035 5* 03JonoCode9374 5* (+81) 10/* See also */
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< 1569224651 516902 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569225183 823884 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning. There was something very important I needed to tell you about all your base, but I've forgotten what it was.
< 1569228344 35285 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made Robin's ref impl able to run on Hugs, even the random numbers and I/O parts.  I'm running the test suite on it now.  It's taking... a while to finish.
< 1569228824 777202 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :26 minutes, to be precise.  (compared to about 1 minute 8 seconds when it's compiled by ghc.)
> 1569232009 435501 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07An Odd Rewriting System/Odd.hs14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66322 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+1791) 10Add Haskell implementation of An Odd Rewriting System.
> 1569232127 405425 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07An Odd Rewriting System14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66323&oldid=58485 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+71) 10Link to Haskell implementation.
> 1569232464 675643 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Deque14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66324 5* 03YamTokTpaFa 5* (+186) 10/* Isn't this article's expression unified? */ new section
< 1569233415 355606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider a language where programs automatically loop after N steps, and on each step, N grows.  Programs can modify themselves, so that they can grow on each loop.
< 1569233481 133756 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: consider me considering
< 1569233506 354892 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If this is the only way to loop, and if N grows by a constant additive amount, this could be TC.  But if N grows by a multiplicative factor, is it?
< 1569233516 260568 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is it could be TC?)
< 1569233538 853565 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need an inner loop to make it grow enough to get to the next loop.
< 1569233582 934215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk, not terribly interesting by itself, but maybe it could be developed
< 1569233612 79884 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have to have enough instructions to make it to N to loop?
< 1569233619 526479 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can it autopad with no-ops
< 1569233651 477486 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(noöps)
< 1569233657 407004 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of having some fairly generic instruction set which could include no-ops.
< 1569233748 64051 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like N could start out "too small" as well
< 1569233822 912997 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could also try to make an "evil" version where N grows, but not in a way that is easy to predict
< 1569235666 104624 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or otherwise make it difficult to construct a no-op.  In a lot of languages it's easy, in some it might be impossible, but ideally you'd want to strike some middle ground
< 1569235887 401312 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569236033 961591 :tromp!~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:c32:e5d9:5da2:4f0d QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
> 1569236153 63576 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Keg14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66325&oldid=66321 5* 03A 5* (+24) 10/* See also */ This link also includes irrelevant questions.
< 1569236415 303514 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Turing-complete language that admits a quine also admits a way to build a no-op" -- I wonder if that's true?
< 1569236437 131077 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My gut feeling is that it's probably true
< 1569236579 937301 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats a tough one
< 1569236641 372987 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that from
< 1569237157 264599 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really from anywhere, just from me thinking about how one might make a language where it's not possible to write a program that does nothing
< 1569237368 596503 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569240518 874048 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a no-op?
< 1569240540 448434 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's a whole discussion above.
< 1569240671 876206 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does no-op mean a program of length n+k that computes the same thing as a program of length n?
< 1569240937 296311 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was using the word to mean the identity function, more or less.  A program that does nothing.  If you tack it on to some other program, it doesn't change the meaning of that program.
< 1569240973 500357 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are sort of a lot of assumptions about programs in there.
< 1569241033 426403 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a whole program, not an instruction.
< 1569241039 953068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems easier.
< 1569241068 499318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a language could easily be Turing-complete and still require programs to always print something?
< 1569241078 799606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that came from, if you don't have a no-op instruction, can you build one out of the other instructions.
< 1569241205 142677 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. If you force the program to always output something, then you say that's Turing complete because you can reduce every program to a TM, you're kind of pushing the "no-op-ness" into the TC reduction.
< 1569241272 557485 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OK.
< 1569241298 314620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure the TC reduction is such a useful way to talk about programs for other purposes.
< 1569241488 769848 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's why I started thinking about quines.
< 1569241982 729637 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to think of it another way: say you have an algebra, and it doesn't have an identity element (perhaps it's a semigroup). It's claimed that one can express any computation they like in this algebra. Could this claim be true?
< 1569242452 279395 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it be said that an algebra can express a computation?
< 1569242832 10467 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtttcmpmswdapswk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569242949 587000 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, itself, is an interesting question.
< 1569243215 938979 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once saw a paper that showed that the Hercules-Hydra battle could be expressed in braid theory.
< 1569243219 752551 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good proof of rice theorem
< 1569243315 423616 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain2: My rough version of Rice's theorem is: It's undeciable to show that a Turing machine does X, because you can take that Turing machine and replace "X" with "halt" and you get the Halting Problem, which you already know is undecidable.
< 1569243336 310272 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that's not the same thing as a good proof.
< 1569243377 542268 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1569243429 665198 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A rock solid proof
< 1569243764 692231 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there's been a machine-checked proof of it in something like Lean or Coq but I have been unable to find anything with a quick web search.
< 1569243958 677267 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/leanprover-community/mathlib/blob/master/src/computability/halting.lean#L165
< 1569244007 362299 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569244015 232623 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently they prove the undecidability of HP based *on* Rice's theorem in that
< 1569244097 334057 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1569244128 535659 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try to understand these theorem statements
< 1569244169 177375 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like "Rice's theorem for the computable reals"?
< 1569244252 99341 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569244254 149439 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you?
< 1569244624 825097 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I like it.
< 1569244866 385175 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be useful for thinking about infinite programs.
< 1569244877 529141 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are infinite programs superturing
< 1569244893 106776 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1569244945 868836 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say uncountably infinite programs have to count as "superturing" in some sense.  Countable ones, probably not.
< 1569245044 362366 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/77487/decidable-properties-of-computable-reals
< 1569245050 468652 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem for reals holds in every reasonable version of computable reals
< 1569245192 199262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain2: Yes, I like it.
< 1569245218 205441 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's interesting that it's a version of Rice's theorem that holds for programs that are guaranteed to halt.
< 1569245293 795645 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are other things you can say about programs that you know some things about?
< 1569245348 521211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example what properties of a total function are decidable given a guaranteed-to-halt program that computes it?
< 1569245402 813037 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh interesting
< 1569245463 387876 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: The computable reals are countable, but they're not computably countable.
< 1569245505 796909 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why aren't they computably countabl?
< 1569245581 759814 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit confused: The program that generates a computable real isn't guaranteed to halt. Quite the opposite, it has to be able to run indefinitely to compute some computable numbers, such as square roots.
< 1569245784 539713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guaranteed to halt = "total" = "recursive" = R; Computable real = "computably enumerable" = "recursively enumerable" = RE; R < RE.
< 1569245868 88949 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :R ⊊ RE
< 1569245896 336788 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, well, if you define it that way it's productive.
< 1569245911 928689 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you give the program a required precision and it gives you an approximation within that precision.
< 1569245920 40520 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case it halts on every input.
< 1569245955 820129 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but you can write an analogous program for uncomputable reals too.
< 1569245969 892913 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It halts because it's a finite approximation.
< 1569246001 989928 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not because of some property that the real it's approximating, has.
< 1569246015 628294 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grammars
< 1569246049 616377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean?
< 1569246057 58009 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't compute uncomputable reals.
< 1569246099 442288 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write a program that asks for a precision and computes an approximation of Chaitin's omega to that precision.
< 1569246133 498003 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You certainly can't.
< 1569246145 984067 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can.  It has in fact been done.
< 1569246190 969750 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe you, cpressey
< 1569246198 894974 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me find the paper.
< 1569246198 979855 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I believe you are mistaken here
< 1569246223 481954 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With N bits of that constant you can solve the halting problem of programs of a size proportional to N
< 1569246258 962657 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569246284 670374 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are Ns known to have programs of that size where it's undecidable whether they halt or not
< 1569246313 64542 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean for it to be undecidable whether a particular program halts?
< 1569246368 933857 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Obviously I Agreeneb.)
< 1569246432 598072 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: the key word is "approximation".  Perhaps there is a limit to the amount of precision you can ask for.
< 1569246441 290815 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A proof of whether it halts or not is outside ZFC (or some other axiom scheme of your choice, but that might requre a different N)
< 1569246475 51266 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think the limit might be about 5
< 1569246475 87676 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or rather, expect to get, when you ask for it.)
< 1569246495 104046 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'd call that "unprovable", not "undecidable".
< 1569246524 625153 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, hmm, that still doesn't make sense to me.
< 1569246541 759035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely if the program halts, you can prove that much in ZFC.
< 1569246559 831446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you're not naming a particular program but only saying (metatheoretically?) that one exists.
< 1569246589 157019 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are theorems outside ZFC. We can construct a turing machine that it halts iff one such theorem is true.
< 1569246675 17431 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm having trouble finding the paper but I wouldn't be surprised if 5 bits was all you could get so, OK, I withdraw any implication I might have made that you can get an arbitrary precision that you ask for in that case.
< 1569246689 295572 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wasn't exactly what I was trying to drive at in any case.
< 1569246741 457393 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any function that produces a finite approximation of anything will of course terminate always.  That's not what we're talking about when we talk about computable reals.  We're distinguishing them from uncomputable reals, ones that no TM can produce.
< 1569246799 161996 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The point is that it can produce approximations to any precision you ask.
< 1569246814 612148 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An infinite stream of bits can be represented as a function : N -> 2 that always halts in the same way.
< 1569246898 955491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569246904 345659 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. I see it differently, in a way that has nothing to do with approximations.
< 1569246946 84200 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the way you see it really matters because however you construct the computable reals they come out the same.
< 1569246949 205363 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you like representing them?
< 1569246950 652132 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: assuming you can't append to the program faster than 1 instruction per instruction, your multiplicatively growing language would probably want lots of imps to work
< 1569246971 864588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an imp is an instruction that adds a copy of itself to the running program; this is Core Wars terminology but could generalise to other languages)
< 1569246986 894672 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the imps are more useful than no-ops because they tend to multiply, whereas no-ops just sit there
< 1569247058 565503 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: How do I like representing a computable real? With the Turing machine that writes it to its tape, I suppose.
< 1569247078 582088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writes what?
< 1569247112 833844 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a TM that writes pi to its tape, there's a TM that writes 1 to its tape, there's a TM that writes e to its tape, and so forth, for any computable real you can pick. Would you agree?
< 1569247116 493958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "A Turing-complete language that admits a quine also admits a way to build a no-op" -- I wonder if that's true? ← what about a language where all commands echo when run? quining is trivial, no-ops don't exist
< 1569247131 193840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean by writing a number to its tape, so maybe I agree.
< 1569247166 341571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit
< 1569247178 896778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569247208 953164 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing machines write symbols on their tapes.  Suppose the alphabet of symbols is "0123456789.".  Then there's a TM that writes "3.14159..." on its tape, where "..." is standing in for the rest of pi.
< 1569247238 958241 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a decimal expansion.
< 1569247241 296651 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't agree.
< 1569247244 953540 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decimal is of course not necessary, but it's the base I tend to use the most in my daily like.
< 1569247252 136740 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No base works.
< 1569247252 172921 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*life
< 1569247274 449244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you want addition to be computable.
< 1569247289 864745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe you can use bases which have redundant representations
< 1569247293 937576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. binary with digits 0, 1, 2
< 1569247318 700526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with using a traditional base (say decimal) is that you might end up with a computable number that happens to be a terminating decimal but you can't prove it
< 1569247323 521880 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about the base. I'm trying to communicate the general definition.
< 1569247346 738532 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No base works.
< 1569247364 515101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson%27s_theorem is the relevant theorem
< 1569247366 998388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe the thing ais523 said works, I'm not sure.
< 1569247395 241331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: basically, the thing you can't do with computable reals is determine for certain whether two things that are actually equal happen to be <= or >= each other
< 1569247401 652875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if two things are actually not equal, you can tell them apart
< 1569247411 210994 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You can't determine for certain *anything* about computable reals.
< 1569247417 911458 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the "Rice's theorem for computable reals" above.
< 1569247439 132197 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean determine for certain in the weaker sense of semidecidability, never mind.
< 1569247442 37417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: with the definitions I'm aware of, a < b is semi-decidable: it's always decidable if it happens to be true
< 1569247449 508893 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but might not be decidable if it happens to be false
< 1569247453 166358 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1569247466 914130 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You certainly want addition to be computable. Say I add "0.666..." and "0.333...". What should the answer be?
< 1569247490 36875 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means that a general "base" representation of a computable real you use has to be one with semi-decidable equality, e.g. in hyperbinary, 022222… and 10000… might or might not be equal
< 1569247491 308763 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Did I claim computable reals can be compared to each other, or added to each other?
< 1569247512 996640 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not, but then you're wildly deviating from anything anyone calls the computable reals.
< 1569247518 169983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the ability to produce a base-N expansion (for any N) implies the abilty to compare
< 1569247536 961903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *can* compare decimal expansions, that's exacty the problem.
< 1569247559 288020 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. in the case of pi, you need to compare to 3.1415 and 3.1416 to determine that the fourth digit after the decimal point is a 5
< 1569247622 510672 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should ask what you mean by the reals in the first place.
< 1569247642 553361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you don't construct the reals in maths as decimal expansions but as Cauchy sequences or Dedekind cuts or something.
< 1569247761 691298 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can presumbly construct the reals as equivalence classes of decimal expansions.
< 1569247772 312469 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How do you figure that implication? It's not so much that the TM "does produce" the expansion, as, if the TM were to run forever somehow, it "would produce" it.
< 1569247811 576217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: suppose you have a number for which it's undecidable how it compares to 3.1415; the Turing machine won't get past three digits past the decimal point no matter how long you run it
< 1569247847 801917 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Where did the undecidable number come from?
< 1569247864 617217 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were talking about computable numbers
< 1569247874 526476 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I thought we were discussing the computable reals; for any rational number there's a computable real number that's equal to it, but undecidably so
< 1569247882 432874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by Richardson's Theorem, which I linked above
< 1569247923 811154 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, as usual, my brain is too small to follow everything that is going on in one of these conversations.
< 1569247956 679387 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, I surrender.  I only thought this was how computable reals were defined, because it's how I recall them being defined in Turing's original paper.
< 1569247963 550462 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I might be mis-remembering how he defined them.
< 1569248008 700639 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If decimal (etc) expansions don't work, pick some expansion that does work.  Does any expansion work?
< 1569248026 600413 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is one, make a TM that writes all the parts of it onto its tape, "forever".
< 1569248079 231837 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point about 0.666... + 0.333... is that when you see the trillionth digit you might have to change your mind about the first digit.
< 1569248086 713872 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperbinary is the most common expansion that works
< 1569248091 980862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the answer might be either 0.999...8 or 1.000...1
< 1569248105 52991 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sure, the TM might have to revise its tape, all the way back to the beginning.
< 1569248110 81561 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIR there are several computable real definitions: weaker ones, stronger ones
< 1569248114 781616 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any representation of the computable reals might have to change its mind arbitrarily far in.
< 1569248125 344329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that doesn't surprise me
< 1569248129 421499 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I talked about finite approximations.
< 1569248164 600226 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in approximations and I don't think you need to invoke them to talk about the objects themselves.
< 1569248171 8597 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some phenomena may exist only for those sufficiently weak/strong
< 1569248178 187791 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But Cauchy sequences are sequences of approximations.
< 1569248198 59218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I'm talking about here is a particular kind of Cauchy sequence.
< 1569248220 869865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, Wikipedia seems to agree with cpressey's definition of computable reals
< 1569248243 5436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the original definition by Minsky
< 1569248261 345368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but says that that definition was since found to be flawed
< 1569248288 566558 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a section discussing the difference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounding#Table-maker's_dilemma
< 1569248357 921251 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all somewhat related to something I thought of recently: Consider the computable, infinite initial GoL configurations. Some, like "infinite barberpole" or "empty space" can be simulated by a TM; others can't even though they are computable.
< 1569248373 687498 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter relates to "Rice's theorem for computable reals".
< 1569248377 965230 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no approximation going on here.
< 1569248423 11077 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er well, I should say, you could probably try to "approximately evolve" a GoL form.
< 1569248424 199637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it's not obvious that a TM can't simulate all computable GoL configurations: can't it compute the value of any given cell after n steps via computing the initial state of the (2n+1)×(2n+1) neighbourhood around it and simulating that?
< 1569248431 732739 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure on this, though
< 1569248437 947237 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might be even be able to get more than 5 bits of precision out of it, who knows.
< 1569248471 393167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: re the 5 bits thing: do you know what the smallest/simplest program is for which it isn't known whether or not it halts?
< 1569248482 192854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in some mathematical formalization
< 1569248492 723901 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: BB(5) is unknown, right?
< 1569248495 632645 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we ran that competition at CGCC and I'm currently winning with a 3-byte Brachylog program
< 1569248499 219909 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a few candidates.
< 1569248501 687888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that sounds about right
< 1569248503 12425 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Every column of the GoL playfield could be a different irrational number.  Every cell needs to be evolved to the next state.  The effects of all the cells propogate at the speed of light.  I don't think a TM can do all that.
< 1569248530 5715 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"different irrational number" = infinitely tall binary expansion of such, in dead/alive cells, of course
< 1569248539 72763 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it can compute the value of any specific cell after any specific number of steps
< 1569248544 192597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_Beaver_game#Exact_values_and_lower_bounds
< 1569248545 784585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you're using a different definition?
< 1569248575 799920 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
< 1569248624 7442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think thinking of the reals as infinite sequences of digits is a very common computer scientist thing to do.
< 1569248631 131939 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's really pretty wrong.
< 1569248632 369894 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's interesting… a TM seems incapable of holding "the whole thing" in its memory at any given time, but for any concrete question you have about a particular cell and a particular time, the TM can answer it
< 1569248654 952888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply by computing only the relevant parts and discarding all the data it doesn't need
< 1569248676 433134 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is due to the speed-of-light issues: in a language like RUBE you couldn't do it because data transmission can be arbitrarily fast there
< 1569248701 357271 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what sense is that not holding "the whole thing" in memory?
< 1569248701 591350 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because you depend on the oracle?
< 1569248758 193422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :much of the information about the state of the GoL automation is never computed
< 1569248817 275040 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but so what? If a program computes an infinite sequence of bits, it doesn't hold "the whole thing" in memory, but it can answer questions about any particular bit.
< 1569248842 593934 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the speed of light thing makes it slightly different.
< 1569248851 285179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the same trick that Hashlife uses.
< 1569248880 206625 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: There does seem to be an inherent slowdown at least; every time you need some information about a cell you haven't computed yet, you need to simulate its entire history so that you know for sure what it is
< 1569248906 64930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569248940 193240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this is one of the main reasons I don't like Turing machines as the standard basis of computation
< 1569248950 112489 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have inherent slowdowns in a weird and artificial-feeling way
< 1569248979 314573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer counter machines because they are at least consistently slow, which feels more natural than Turing machines being slow at some things and fast at others
< 1569249089 852902 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :counter machines ftw!
< 1569249101 903849 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about queue automata?
< 1569249109 221634 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a hard time believing simulating such a GoL playfield on a counter machine would not also have the same slowdown
< 1569249130 776937 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs but without the need for data shifting.
< 1569249136 477217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it does, probably worse
< 1569249150 643003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my complaints about TMs aren't that the slowdown exists, but that it's applied inconsistently
< 1569249156 524578 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay
< 1569249382 386737 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, say there is some expansion of a real that a TM can write to a tape. A real is computable if some TM writes its expansion to its tape "eventually". Then: if A and B are computable reals, then why is A + B not a computable real?
< 1569249401 70366 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A + B will also be written "eventually"
< 1569249416 492340 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your answer to my 0.666... + 0.333... question?
< 1569249455 213609 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That if you have a TM computing 0.666... and a TM computing 0.333... you can make a TM that computes 0.666... + 0.333 ?
< 1569249462 7937 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, you said something I didn't expect, which is that a program can change its mind and erase digits after it writes them.
< 1569249471 685197 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed the final ellipsis there
< 1569249479 654818 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the output was append-only.
< 1569249493 986689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm, I think that works
< 1569249494 73945 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not then these things don't seem useful.
< 1569249516 940316 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does?
< 1569249518 970207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it raises some interesting philosophical problems, though
< 1569249530 841959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: being able to rewrite your output so far, when outputting a computable real as decimal
< 1569249540 910606 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"other GoL configurations can't be computed by a TM" <-- why is this.
< 1569249558 596393 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like a halting tester that outputs "doesn't halt", runs the program it's testing, and if it halts, erases the "doesn't halt" and outputs "halts" instead
< 1569249578 896205 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: it's apparently not true, I was wrong
< 1569249595 816277 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :was gonna say.
< 1569249600 872708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Right.
< 1569249615 693110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hmm, this is a lot like call/cc.
< 1569249626 504839 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which makes sense becuase using call/cc you can decide anything.
< 1569249631 725269 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are counter machines > TMs.
< 1569249691 794306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs effectively give you access to two stacks, where pushing on one pops the other and vice versa
< 1569249696 162605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some problems map neatly onto that model, some don't
< 1569249707 543884 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ones don't.
< 1569249731 994721 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also not sure how to reconcile the infinite GoL playfield thing with shachaf's "Rice's theorem for the computable reals" though.
< 1569249742 198643 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't see the connection?
< 1569249749 738983 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: assume you only have to consider sparse cells.
< 1569249750 130966 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good example is string find-and-replace: on a TM that operation is fast if the replacement string is no longer than the search string, slow if it's longer
< 1569249755 852715 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well the playfield is literally filled with computable reals
< 1569249756 354854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: To be clear, "Rice's theorem for infinite sequences of bits" doesn't hold.
< 1569249767 844931 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plenty of things about infinite sequences of bits are decidable, like "is the first bit 0?".
< 1569249767 897361 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that makes sense, also why I like queue automata vs. TMs.
< 1569249771 315692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think it might be slow if the replacement string is shorter, too
< 1569249781 988138 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah because you need to shift data left and right.
< 1569249792 895938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with most models, the search-and-replace is the same speed regardless of the relation in length between the search and replacement strings
< 1569249807 660473 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with counter machines? how is that possible?
< 1569249849 393463 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with counter machines the computational complexity is pretty horrible but it's the same in both cases
< 1569249850 520730 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: even if I define my infinite sequences of bits as being binary expansions of irrational numbers?
< 1569249859 158068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember whether it's O(n²) or O(n³)
< 1569249892 580442 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You mean real numbers?
< 1569249903 765277 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually understand what you mean.
< 1569249919 479086 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.111... = 1.000..., as binary expansions.
< 1569249925 132555 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're different as sequences of bits.
< 1569249932 305587 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Well I said "irrational numbers", I'll let you figure out if that means "real numbers"
< 1569249948 936381 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I was talking about the irrational integers.
< 1569249957 486760 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I assumed you'd treat "000..." as a rational number, but now I'm not sure what you mean.
< 1569249972 210202 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rice's theorem for the irrational numbers [only, not including the rationals]" also doesn't hold.
< 1569250015 564316 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: beause the undecidable cases are actually rational, you just don't know it?
< 1569250060 680692 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: There is a number we call pi.  You can write out a binary expansion of pi.
< 1569250074 523934 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not *you* you, but you know what I mean.
< 1569250094 342494 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was meant to say “register machines ftw”, not counter machines
< 1569250105 682126 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what bothers me about counter machines is that at a glance, they seem actually practical. you don't have to construct numbers out of symbols, you just _have_ them and can do arithmetic. but in order to do anything useful, you need to construct data structures using compounding arithmetic ops and... ugh.
< 1569250130 22653 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that one can extend register machine definition so that registers hold values of any simple inductive type
< 1569250143 958187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I'm not automatically opposed to register machines but think they can be awkward to define
< 1569250154 740676 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :like binary strings instead of naturals
< 1569250180 567762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure that's what I mean?
< 1569250188 207835 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: nor am I
< 1569250191 304354 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I would say it's because the Baire space is totally disconnected.
< 1569250208 29449 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, I agree that I can write out a binary expansion of pi.
< 1569250239 193531 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any way to perform general computation on counter machines outside of constructing some kind of linear tape.
< 1569250248 141579 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I should read on counter machines vs. register ones, I seem to forget what the difference was)
< 1569250398 500397 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well, I think I see the reconciliation now.  The TM simulating the infinite GoL form, is at every step working on a finite segment of the thing.
< 1569250402 772898 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe I didn’t want to say “register machines…” after all. I meant a machine with type constructors and “conditional-jump destructor” as operations
< 1569250490 505134 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if there were infinitely active cells in some kind of pattern, the GoL wouldn't even update.
< 1569250496 123242 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so my flavor of Minsky machine would have an additional CLR op, corresponding to Z constructor. We can omit it because it’s the only nullary constructor, for a type with more than one nullary constructor we can’t
< 1569250512 92001 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/, for a type/; for a type
< 1569250631 599367 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
< 1569250640 507325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I take it these are recursive types? (otherwise it's hard to see how it ends up TC)
< 1569250645 535295 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : is there any way to perform general computation on counter machines outside of constructing some kind of linear tape. => for my kind of machine for type Str = Empty | O Str | I Str, we can effectively have as many stacks of bits as we wish, I think it’s better than a tape
< 1569250649 885808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that formalization
< 1569250656 707509 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, recursive
< 1569250674 325935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically what I used to prove the subset of JavaScript which uses only the characters +[]=` as Turing-complete
< 1569250691 618683 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thanks, I like it too, it seems pretty neat and concise)
< 1569250707 133046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it has a name
< 1569250709 769701 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, as many stacks of bits... 1's and 0's, or just unary.
< 1569250729 726810 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what machine are we talking about here. INC/JZDEC?
< 1569250737 993392 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though it’s only concise when we have recursive types defined already; I don’t know how to define them quickly)
< 1569250810 19709 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what I mean by "general computation" is more about convenience than anything. you can build up to random access memory with a TM.
< 1569250837 333114 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're just using a counter machine as a TM or a 2-stack PDA... what's the point.
< 1569250843 805522 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think that's where th confusion is.
< 1569250844 478494 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from knowing you can/speed concerns.
< 1569250857 330692 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no, this machine would have ops [CLR, redundant], APPEND0, APPEND1, “JEMPTYCASE” which jumps to three different places in case of "", in case of s + "0" and in case of s + "1" and truncates the value to s in the last two cases
< 1569250885 835610 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But it's not quite clear to me. The main point I was making was to distinguish bit streams from real numbers.
< 1569250910 633434 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there is an accompanying recursive function formalism which also can be extended to work with values of an arbitrary recursive type
< 1569250928 529707 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What properties does a real number have that a bitstream derived from that real number does not have?
< 1569250940 175374 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, I guess I can say that I want this property: The real number is the limit of a sequence, and the sequence is what you write down.
< 1569250949 721065 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, I somewhat object to "stream"
< 1569250954 242556 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means you can't arbitrarily change the sequence.
< 1569250976 154275 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/YEOOIIOOIOA is based on the rec. fun. formalism corresponding to the machine defined above
< 1569250985 547858 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm a bit confused by that question. A real number is a completely different thing from an encoding of that number.
< 1569250997 813563 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: then you're not talking about the same machine I am.
< 1569251001 722694 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What property does a partial function have that a Turing machine that computes that function does not have?
< 1569251087 273885 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've never seen a real number, and I've never seen an infinite sequence of bits either, so really, I can't say.
< 1569251103 384932 :sleepnap!~thomas@d14-69-163-248.try.wideopenwest.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569251123 823373 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fair!
< 1569251127 555595 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always thought there was a certain amount of irony in the word "real" being applied to them, tbh
< 1569251128 20279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are two levels of encoding here.
< 1569251192 150503 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: a counter machine on the order of INC and JZDEC.
< 1569251196 330756 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I'm talking about.
< 1569251369 12020 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you're just using a counter machine as a TM or a 2-stack PDA... what's the point. => oh but we can use a more complicated type, like lists of lists, and index into those lists in a linear time, or maybe binary trees, and index them even more efficiently
< 1569251404 57192 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: then you're not talking about the same machine I am. => yes
< 1569251468 627311 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: though IDK the usual machine you meant seems nice to me too
< 1569251548 406514 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because it implements things in a simple manner, but e. g. because these machines compose nicer than TMs
< 1569251593 306005 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569251608 526094 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I still don't understand your statement.
< 1569251630 538521 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely understand anything
< 1569251665 147352 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtttcmpmswdapswk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1569251800 479124 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like thinking of a kind of computable reals where they are r: N → Q × Q where fst r(i) < snd r(i) and fst r(i) < fst r(i+1) and snd r(i) > snd r(i+1), though IIRC it’s not the strongest definition
< 1569251974 95669 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you need something to constrain the rate of convergence?
< 1569251978 931114 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the interval lengths should also decrease geometrically
< 1569251996 799822 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I opened the page ais523 mentioned
< 1569251997 100972 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that works.
< 1569252012 539652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which page?
< 1569252016 495102 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh.
< 1569252145 422393 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a fun fact:
< 1569252163 116397 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know you can sort a list of computable reals (or infinite sequences of bits)?
< 1569252221 331743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you sort an infinite sequence that starts with 1s forever, but might have a 0 somewhere down the line?
< 1569252234 811878 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, finite list, each element is infinite
< 1569252243 487224 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a finite list.
< 1569252259 916508 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort-of a trick question because you can output the sorted finite list, but you can't identify which element of the sorted list corresponds to which element of the original
< 1569252267 448558 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1569252276 919627 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I did know that! I think because you told me at some point (maybe you tweeted about it)
< 1569252296 854407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until I heard of this, I thought of sorting algorithms as extracting a permutation from their input and applying it.
< 1569252331 915407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But here you can't extract a single bit of order information from the input and you can still sort it (extensionally, not intensionally).
< 1569252348 905862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gravity sort is a good example of a sorting algorithm that doesn't feel like extracting a permutation
< 1569252386 128461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean comparison sorts.
< 1569252408 374208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't a comparison sort though, you need to ine
< 1569252414 348120 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess strictly speaking this isn't a comparison sort. But until I heard about this I thought of sorting networks as comparison sorts.
< 1569252415 620403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interleave the comparisons for it to work
< 1569252704 887128 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569252952 25466 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569252970 313043 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you mentioned that counter machines 1. compose well and 2. give you access to lists, etc.
< 1569252975 491676 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We shall avoid confusion by speaking more often of computable sequences than of computable numbers." - Turing 1936
< 1569252978 859013 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that possible with only counters? some kind of arithmetic encoding?
< 1569253088 112234 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it requires a large amount of memory.
< 1569253115 898048 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :large numbers, rather.
< 1569253143 911460 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at the paper again, I don't think I was misremembering it. He argues that some infinite sequences of 0's and 1's cannot come from any Turing machine. You can go further and put a "." in front of that and call it a "real number" if you like.
< 1569253226 884714 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-67-183-33-240.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569253254 765449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I take it you're a finitist, or an ultra-finitist.
< 1569253302 675460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean, certainly if you write "0." followed by any infinite sequence of bits, that names a real number.
< 1569253318 161304 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I find the concept of completed infinity rather suspect, while I find the concept of potential infinity invaluable. If you know a good label for that, please do let me know.
< 1569253342 280176 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably somewhere around finitist.
< 1569253490 911013 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd call myself a formalist before I'd call myself a finitist. Clearly, you can manipulate strings of symbols representing propositions about large cardinals, if you like...
< 1569253589 432276 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of another reason why I don't like counter machines: they require giant numbers to get anything done.
< 1569253664 414382 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: they compose well in any case, but give access to lists only when we use a sufficiently complex recursive type for their values, unfortunately
< 1569253664 507042 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :about composing: if we have machines A1, …, An, B that implement functions f1, …, fn, g, we can implement g ∘ (f1, …, fn) by a big machine which has all the counters of A1, …, An, B, and sequentially executes commands for A1, …, An, B with minor modifications (when Ai halts, we start A(i+1), and we copy from output registers of all Ai to input registers of B before starting it)
< 1569253664 507100 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it’s clearer than TMs as the tape corresponds to inputs and outputs not in that a straight way
< 1569253773 570274 :andrewtheircer_!4f658090@79-101-128-144.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569253785 461156 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean "sufficiently complex recursive type".
< 1569253791 4065 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're just talking about positive integers here, yeah.
< 1569253797 806785 :andrewtheircer_!4f658090@79-101-128-144.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi imode
< 1569253915 670239 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: for Minsky machine, yes, but when I talked about lists and indexing, I meant the extension :D
< 1569253941 971604 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't there a way to encode pairs arithmetically?
< 1569253952 798956 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, of course
< 1569253978 897067 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :pairing function.
< 1569253984 429134 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it.
< 1569254002 441321 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it requires absurdly large numbers for any suitably sized pairs.
< 1569254013 629994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as we want to not make huge numbers and long computations, the more complex type seems more natural
< 1569254024 712669 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly
< 1569254038 423695 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the by, you can do that composition easily with TMs as well.
< 1569254062 259284 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you can compose wang B-machines in the same manner because of the way you execute instructions.
< 1569254074 745441 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but TMs are literally just wiring state machines up correctly.
< 1569254091 405428 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so say you have a type Tree = Leaf | Branch Tree Tree, you can encode with them a nice data store as well as indexes to that store, and work with all that more or less easy
< 1569254164 781517 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : by the by, you can do that composition easily with TMs as well. => when I last thought about that, it seemed there should be much of gluing needed, isn’t that so?
< 1569254178 6753 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really. you can concatenate machines to do arbitrary things.
< 1569254202 219658 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :one machine's halt state feeds into another machine's start state, and you can build small atomic machines that move the tape left or right unconditionally.
< 1569254211 887341 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do stuff like add numbers, etc.
< 1569254212 214389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with multiple inputs and outputs on a tape?
< 1569254219 392672 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. that's not really a problem.
< 1569254241 804262 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :say we need to shuffle them
< 1569254242 273400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit
< 1569254262 613689 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not that much of a problem, you can build shuffling machines.
< 1569254267 410060 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1569254270 779518 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then compose them together. it's literally just wiring.
< 1569254305 156107 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: and with counter machines, you don’t need any shuffling at all :P
< 1569254315 156430 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :define shuffling.
< 1569254341 515392 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're transforming input into output, you can segment the tape into two, the former being your "read" space, the latter being your "write" space.
< 1569254357 876851 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former segment can store your input, the latter segment can store your output.
< 1569254367 605796 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build machines to read/copy input elements to the work tape.
< 1569254412 398271 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :IDK, they are more transparent to me
< 1569254412 488221 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : define shuffling. => moving substrings not containing an empty symbol from one place of the tape to the other place so that order of these substrings changes, I think that’ll do
< 1569254431 127824 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a problem once you have a machine built that does just that.
< 1569254465 639121 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically "read all symbols until end of 'token' marker, copy them to the place the cursor was previously.
< 1569254480 257725 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, but we need to discover that machine first
< 1569254504 387196 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not hard to create one...
< 1569254508 308128 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems quite tedious to write that machine out
< 1569254519 430736 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean tedious.
< 1569254527 479489 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build it from things like search machines.
< 1569254531 649711 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(write out explicitly)
< 1569254552 790650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it’ll take me a while, I’ll need to write search machines out too
< 1569254555 424730 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"seek to read segment, seek to Nth symbol in read segment"
< 1569254560 302929 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, I have some literature for you.
< 1569254571 733447 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: thanks :D
< 1569254589 230495 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :np! :)
< 1569254603 223596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see if I can find it..
< 1569254604 267319 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’m sure it’s possible and I’m almost sure it would seem natural when you saw all that, but…
< 1569254627 948016 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also do you think composing Markov algorithms is easy too?
< 1569254667 821004 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I experimented with. it was a little more flexible because you could always do things like define separate symbol spaces via rule prefixes.
< 1569254669 523665 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://web.stanford.edu/class/archive/cs/cs103/cs103.1132/lectures/19/Small19.pdf
< 1569254674 114087 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :great set of slides.
< 1569254687 417839 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1569254718 46076 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :goes all the way up to a reasonably usable programming language.
< 1569254725 333415 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which eventually gets reduced down to a native state form.
< 1569254746 864836 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :…eventually… ;)
< 1569254751 588492 :andrewtheircer_!4f658090@79-101-128-144.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this
< 1569254817 397047 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd do this with a counter machine anyway.
< 1569254848 362306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( even these slides say “Turing machines are hard” almost at the start )
< 1569254880 276634 :andrewtheircer_!4f658090@79-101-128-144.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569254936 117436 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ah, a language compiling into them, yeah, I did that with something C-like, with constructs like `local  {  }` to declare fresh registers
< 1569254940 319289 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs are hard because of the unweildy nature (at a glance) of state machines. it's an unstructured control graph, with cycles and everything. but as with everything, you break it down into small re-usable chunks.
< 1569254940 979577 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to lambda calculus, which is squishy
< 1569254963 511029 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete opposite end of the Moh scale
< 1569254982 427528 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, apparently it's Mohs, not Moh's
< 1569254999 743091 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mo's scale.
< 1569255153 551090 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: wang's B-machines are pretty much a prelude to things like brainfuck.
< 1569255161 984906 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"atomization" was the first step.
< 1569255717 368494 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do this in counter machines as well. really in any machine model..
< 1569255732 800390 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to get to something halfway usable.
< 1569256020 274203 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :im back\
< 1569256291 368164 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569256913 407538 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569257074 356454 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569257087 904927 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1569257472 318457 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569257952 328077 :sleepnap!~thomas@d14-69-163-248.try.wideopenwest.com PART :#esoteric
< 1569257956 65195 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :machines that manipulate nonlinear media are difficult to internalize.
< 1569258029 558440 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume a TM's tape was suddenly replaced with an undirected, unlabeled graph. how would it navigate?
< 1569258184 902545 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: is there hope at all? I don’t see
< 1569258252 63346 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. you can highlight the current vertex, but there's little else you can do off the top of my head, unless you have a method of storing the path.
< 1569258261 789838 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite unlabeled at the start, can we label vertices and edges as we go?
< 1569258293 996273 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it would be in a sense equivalent to store several paths
< 1569258338 509891 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would your condition even be.
< 1569258359 540449 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though as we don’t know where to go, it’s still not obvious what we could do except maybe traverse one of the connected components
< 1569258671 665534 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say "in state X, if you're not at a vertex you've previously visited, do Y and go to state Z, otherwise go to state W."
< 1569258699 147265 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could use different labels
< 1569258709 736710 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use loops of vertices as labels.
< 1569258719 733926 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the length of those loops as differentiating labels.
< 1569258743 194518 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm how would it label us any particular vertex?
< 1569258776 858698 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can construct "macro-vertices".
< 1569258794 616467 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we able to tweak the graph?
< 1569258799 455470 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I think I did twit it. But I also learned about it from a twit.
< 1569258860 921599 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :tweak?
< 1569258961 993295 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: add/remove vertices or edges, for example
< 1569259013 358046 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could, yeah.
< 1569259059 727800 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make loops in place of a vertex, then
< 1569259103 191998 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I’m not sure at all it’s possible with only several simple operations
< 1569259110 526034 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is kind of why I think linear media is better than nonlinear media.
< 1569259132 834095 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's more universal and basic than linear tape.
< 1569259175 151538 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe unordered collections of objects... but there's not much there.
< 1569259267 367348 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the linear tape is as good as N or Z, for respective kinds of unboundedness
< 1569259282 446464 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, is good for precisely same reasons
< 1569259323 213243 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably, yeah.
< 1569259337 693956 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is bad too…
< 1569259365 977251 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm imagine a data store indexed by hereditarily finite sets
< 1569259425 259394 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569259447 870071 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they can be canonically ordered, it’s quite tempting
< 1569259530 4633 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can go to the least element, the greatest element, or we can go to powerset or s ↦ {s}
< 1569259551 64847 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :first two. of course, not for ∅
< 1569259614 266429 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :could we traverse all the elements of some known set, though?..
< 1569259647 381309 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we stand at that set, then we go to the least element, then we have forgotten what we were to traverse
< 1569259657 155925 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569259709 151904 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, we could go to the set not containing the least/greatest element. Then we could eat all them away sequentially
< 1569259726 588147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though we won’t be able to extract what we’ve eaten
> 1569259992 42715 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Semantic Brain14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66326&oldid=51670 5* 03SilverWingedSeraph 5* (+8) 10Fix my name.
< 1569260728 190063 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yesterday I recalled values with statically checked states because of the following problem: you want to write a thing that computes some value or a more elaborate value without recomputing what was already computed and without computing what isn’t needed for the level of elaboration asked for by a callee. What syntax would be appropriate to write such a thing and not to have a headache
< 1569260728 307937 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :the part about not computing what’s not needed can be dealt with using a lazy data structure, but the first part seems unwieldy: imagine it’s less expensive to compute f(a) from g(a) and vice versa than f and g themselves. Then if I want my premature optimization, I need to write something complex, maybe like this for an OOP language:
< 1569260728 307984 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :class GetFG { A a;   FA? fa := null;   GA? ga := null;   ctor(a) { this.a := a; }   fun get_g() { if (ga) return ga; elif (fa) return ga := g_from_f(fa); else return ga := g(a); }   /* get_f is likewise */ }
< 1569260728 344105 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see this is very clumsy
< 1569260728 344147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought about extending coroutines with a public API like classes but it seems going nowhere too
< 1569260743 862167 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is too general a question too, though
< 1569260796 741781 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it, or some specification of it, has a name?
> 1569262788 893363 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Quiney14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66327&oldid=46265 5* 03KrystosTheOverlord 5* (+150) 10
< 1569265952 191368 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de QUIT :Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.
< 1569266090 788236 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@sorunome.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569270647 869869 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569270799 870628 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :some guy just tried to sell me on his concatenative language and "hard won ideas of programming language design tried over decades".
< 1569270835 322504 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with egos.
< 1569271366 60974 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: what language, is it well-known?
< 1569271383 577670 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not. it is not even released. one doubts that it ever will.
< 1569271402 271015 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it statically typed?
< 1569271405 622970 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope.
< 1569271415 412946 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I approve of your decision
< 1569271475 28269 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just having a discussion with him about what I'm trying to look for in a language, and I posted some work in progress examples of mine (one I actually have a C compiler for), and he just kept calling it a tarpit and told me to "readjust my position" or something.
< 1569271496 999693 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are too many dynamically typed concatenative languages, too many stacks they bear with them on us
< 1569271511 502894 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh could I have a look?
< 1569271538 393148 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it's a previous version (prior to me moving to a queue instead of a stack for the work area).
< 1569271581 310570 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :readjust your position, don’t use unit tests 
< 1569271588 618248 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that one! :D
< 1569271605 625805 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :he also said "You had everything to gain and you lost it."
< 1569271613 350416 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1569271614 590155 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"now you're on the losing side" or whatever.
< 1569271623 982541 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like whaaaaaat the fuuuuuck.
< 1569271638 671140 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says things like that.
< 1569271660 900872 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are seven sides but some people think in binary
< 1569271679 96995 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gene ray save me now.
< 1569271729 621769 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hatebin.com/dsijqhwkec the C compiler for the old version, the newest version (using expanded keywords and definitions) is here https://hatebin.com/imhzdlmjba
< 1569271777 455601 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna be writing a C compiler for the new version in C. it's honestly really trivial and like, nothing to even get into.
< 1569271845 520034 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the longer keywords get reduced to single symbols.
< 1569271899 668614 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the conversation was interesting in and of itself before everything turned violent. I was trying to figure out how to make a language like this into something like a pointfree prolog.
< 1569272049 839931 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1569272088 531231 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: pointfree in the usual sense, no explicit arguments? Didn’t see that prolog
< 1569272107 895814 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no explicit arguments, no variables.
< 1569272121 88862 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, prolog requires variables.
< 1569272128 419028 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes, no variables too. How does it look?
< 1569272136 135667 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea, to be honest.
< 1569272169 971796 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it could be done by pushing symbolic variable names on to the queue/stack.
< 1569272187 545887 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then just passing those around until you hit rock bottom assertions.
< 1569272201 409327 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :orrrr you don't, and you error out.
< 1569272312 674657 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also in light of my remark about static typing now I think about if your language is typable. At least whether one can reason about stack safety / length. I don’t immediately see if `[`, `]` and control things like these can be reasoned about in a simple way
< 1569272346 383634 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ah, I meant how its syntax should look like
< 1569272357 743785 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, I honestly don't know, that's what we were brainstorming about. :)
< 1569272398 475521 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for things like stack/queue effects, you can annotate your source properly, and each annotation specifies part of the larger "compile-time program".
< 1569272410 810210 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :: factorial ( num -- ) ... ;
< 1569272425 476048 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :: dup ( any -- any any ) ... ;
< 1569272426 889946 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe one should draw these programs as tree pictures or like de Brujin indices, but these seem point-bound
< 1569272459 570940 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: yeah, these simple operations are typable easy, I agree
< 1569272473 160301 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you can guard against over/underflow, as well as typing.
< 1569272523 153394 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did something like that and even encoded it as Haskell heterogeneous lists with type vars instead of Nil, that is the rest of the stack we conserve
< 1569272539 974850 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry's basis for getting into combinators, IIRC, was to build logical sentences without variables.
< 1569272720 759429 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, also can I ask lambdabot or someone else to remind me a thing after some time?
< 1569272760 328488 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I need to write a note so I don’t forget to think about `[` and `]`
< 1569272789 170148 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're on your own
< 1569272842 27049 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha. cron job is usually good. :)
< 1569272862 748561 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sure. `at` exists for such purposes.
< 1569272869 579082 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fyi, `[` and `]` are 'begin an infinite loop' and 'end an infinite loop'.
< 1569272887 400197 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delivery may be tricky unless you have local mail set up.
< 1569272931 978788 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( at midnight kill -9 - 1 )
< 1569272962 23634 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, there should be no space between - and 1.
< 1569272987 418077 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah I didn't know that `at` had a `teatime` timespec :)
< 1569273017 619459 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously?
< 1569273030 315187 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You may also specify midnight, noon, or teatime (4pm)"
< 1569273041 277361 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful.
< 1569273131 482120 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real problem with writing notes as reminders is where to put the note that reminds you to read your notes.
< 1569273676 965240 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569273717 762412 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put them on my precious desk and move them from place to place there
< 1569273745 897153 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there are some notes in a phone app
< 1569273838 671299 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
< 1569273991 128250 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: do you have categories? "not important" "not right now" "let's do this later"?
< 1569274041 503442 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I desire to have them but still don’t
< 1569274066 673783 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :"not important" "not right now" "let's do this later"? => these are default
< 1569274087 234659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Bitcoin is a very expensive religion. )
< 1569274542 644765 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :analyst and catalyst walk into a bar
< 1569275306 593573 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: Whose thought XML was a good idea in the first place?
< 1569275395 367083 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a scientology shop in town yesterday.
< 1569275402 43378 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569275408 627091 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason the phrase "expensive religion" brought it to mind.
< 1569275431 743290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would've had a free video on Dianetics to view.
< 1569276567 211005 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah "free".
< 1569276620 208322 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wrote a shell script that generates markdown
< 1569276628 426991 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there's one just up the street from me
< 1569276648 526901 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the main one in SF is rather fancy https://www.scientology-sanfrancisco.org/inside-our-church/
< 1569276650 598347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We waste NN minutes of your time but we also make you feel like it was a gift so now you a) owe us and b) have to justify spending NN minutes of your time on our ideas"
< 1569276656 505834 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see them in the subway sometimes marketing their "free stress test"
< 1569276665 482008 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitch I don't need a stress test I already know I'm stressed
< 1569276673 688730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC sources have .md files, but they're actually "machine description" files rather than markdown files, but GitHub still attempts to render them as markdown.
< 1569276680 871324 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Seeing scientology called a church is so unreal :)
< 1569276682 377592 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see a lot more jehova's witnesses though
< 1569276689 563621 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: eh...
< 1569276699 441814 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume the London one was a much less fancy, although obviously I only saw the front.
< 1569276705 572848 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :many churches are a bit nutty
< 1569276712 579190 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only difference between a religion and a cult is popularity
< 1569276715 442438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: They tried that in Germany too. The courts looked at them and said, no, you're not a church. And that was it. :)
< 1569276728 667114 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, cults tend to be abusive, but a lot of things generally recognized as religions are also abusive
< 1569276743 394070 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: It's just another difference between the US and here.
< 1569276752 536708 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, your government is more willing to draw the line
< 1569276755 508920 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still an arbitrary line
< 1569276767 148411 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :freedom of religion is strong in the USA
< 1569276770 99628 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for good or for ill
< 1569276782 614417 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like the satanists, because they troll the fundamentalist christians
< 1569276812 944526 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a public school has a christian club they'll try to set up a satanism club
< 1569276821 239113 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://goo.gl/maps/xUPRwEjfkpdei2v69 I guess that's pretty fancy.
< 1569276823 717368 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when some fundies put a 10 commandments sculpture on the courthouse lawn, the satanists responded with a huge statue of Baphomet
< 1569276849 958133 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: have you watched the British sitcom "Peep Show"?
< 1569276859 694821 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've got a different fancier place that's the actual church, that's just a "life improvement center".
< 1569276876 24089 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be the funniest tv show i've ever seen. certainly in the top few
< 1569276887 755464 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywhere, there's a whole episode where one of the characters joins the "New Wellness Center"
< 1569276887 892603 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1569276997 125474 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's based on the seven sacred truths from the golden tablets found in the asteroid which crashed in Siberia in 1911. It's a really great book. You'd love the chapter on orgones. Orgones are the invisible molecules of universal life energy which govern our moods and our actions. Negatives orgones are the source of all the problems in the world."
< 1569277002 176574 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And you believe that?"
< 1569277004 641160 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Well, how do you explain all the problems in the world?"
< 1569277007 197944 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I mean, I couldn't just There are so many historical and economic factors—"
< 1569277009 653695 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Exactly! You haven't got a clue."
< 1569277084 470784 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Bay Area is still a leading exporter of cults
< 1569277090 688366 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :People's Temple being the most famous one
< 1569277105 371854 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more recently we have the Berkeley Rationalists
< 1569277122 229620 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and OneTaste which is a sort of startup sex cult / yuppie lifestyle brand
< 1569277265 443695 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun fact: People's Temple ran a ham radio station at Jonestown, which they used to communicate with the organization back in SF, and they would also acknowledge contacts with whoever was on the airwaves
< 1569277299 911301 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a prized contact because people collect countries and there were not many stations in Guyana at that time (probably still the case)
< 1569277307 567636 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1569277316 625831 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hamgallery.com/qsl/country/Guyana/wb6mid3_b.jpg https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/fccDieckman.jpg
< 1569277410 717261 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :1978 was a crazy year for San Francisco
< 1569277459 614043 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :918 people died in Jonestown, many of whom had family and friends in San Francisco, including our congressional representative (who also just happened to be a vocal critic of the CIA)
< 1569277514 272265 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 9 days later, the mayor and a city supervisor (the first openly gay elected official in california history) were assassinated by another city supervisor
< 1569277536 412382 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: The original motivation was for RAII-like things.
< 1569277550 151630 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only assassination of a major US city mayor ever, i believe
< 1569277553 198684 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Python's "with" takes effect for a nested scope, but often you'd want it to take effect for a scope instead.
< 1569277560 682617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean for the rest of the scope.
< 1569277567 40884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ with(lock)`; ... }
< 1569277568 68704 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then riots over the verdict of that trial
< 1569277621 232422 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure
< 1569277623 381925 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense
< 1569277628 107533 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kind of like defer
< 1569277629 338964 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it
< 1569277767 996614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, defer is for the second part.
< 1569277785 95787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's reasonable to acquire a lock and release it at the end of a scope.
< 1569277801 477265 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think the RAII approach where you need an object for it is kind of silly.
< 1569277910 406215 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps
< 1569277924 655297 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a case of getting a feature for free from another feature (destructors for types with actual content)
< 1569278170 970677 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you intentionally swap channels, or unintentionally? 
< 1569278192 78032 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent a while going up the backscroll looking for where that was coming from.
< 1569278437 301131 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569278776 426007 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other channels?
< 1569278790 326458 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what shall we do about this blasphemy?
< 1569278790 793973 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: still many evils remained: and, if this were done, my whole duty in this respect he sometimes reminds us of the violent ebbs and flows of public feeling, it seems, however, is what nobody will dispute. the king performs a sacrifice: but the entrails are fnord and from the necessity of watchful preparation and powerful establishment." but still, as far as i am concerned in the public service. he never can show that even u
< 1569278802 603583 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It seemed more ontopic here?
< 1569278818 557432 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style
< 1569278818 593682 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp ukparl youtube
< 1569278824 540653 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches
< 1569278824 576966 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
< 1569278825 476933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably was.
< 1569278830 345591 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1569278846 85214 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I have a list of those speeches anymore.
< 1569278848 410281 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: how do we squash the nonbelievers.
< 1569278848 640810 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ladies and gentlemen,--you receive me with so much good has not been refuted by my honourable friend. he calls upon us to raise that united cry which has so excellent a writer would not cease to write. in the next parliament. but, if the country has to pay two millions, it will never apply itself sufficiently to works of that kind deserves our fullest recognition. i recognise to the full the responsibility for it.
< 1569278880 831316 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds complicated and expensive.
< 1569279398 865978 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1569279549 189915 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna conquer the world, give all the idiots a brand new religion
< 1569279652 52704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: will that limit climate change?
< 1569279667 251214 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I almost wrote "avert" but it's too late for that)
< 1569279724 917535 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows
< 1569280834 646390 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s like pendulum
< 1569280872 281401 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a cat
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< 1569281947 842378 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :still have no idea why dup, drop, swap and last are "universal" for queue automata.
< 1569281974 882863 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it makes sense.
< 1569282005 743719 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup creates information, drop removes information, swap reorders information, last shifts information around.
< 1569282017 143570 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's last?
< 1569282031 111637 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :take an element from the rear of the queue and bring it to the front.
< 1569282043 269530 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I missed the word "queue".
< 1569282043 585905 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 last -> 3 1 2
< 1569282080 793143 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's "universal" for stack automata?
< 1569282104 60251 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I am unsure of. probably pick and roll, I guess?
< 1569282112 392157 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really stack ops..
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< 1569282151 732752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how this compares to S and K, which also duplicate and delete.
< 1569282165 666200 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I'm trying to figure out.
< 1569282170 728880 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :B C K W is more directly a duplicate/delete, thing, I guess.
< 1569282174 537900 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :S is kind of a compound operation.
< 1569282187 22601 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is like swap, K is like drop, W, is like dup
< 1569282205 474953 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :..._interesting_.
< 1569282295 564130 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may only need dup, drop and swap, now that I think about it. `last` is for convenience.
< 1569282310 872007 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rolling the queue can just be : roll dup drop ;
< 1569282334 261493 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :_provided_ you don't dequeue the top symbol.
< 1569282361 91465 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do, then you need to do... : roll swap last last swap last ;
< 1569282403 818056 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 2 1 -> 1 2 3 -> 3 1 2 -> 2 3 1 -> 1 3 2 -> 2 1 3
< 1569282442 588595 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :roll puff puff swap
< 1569282567 609888 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'last' is kind of a hack, though. I can build a queue machine that will do it in linear time.
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< 1569290841 301187 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://pressron.wordpress.com/2016/08/30/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-computation/
< 1569290910 180266 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this post is interesting, because it presents a dichotomy that I've been struggling with.
< 1569290920 269698 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that of models of programming vs. models of computation.
< 1569291247 577300 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569291253 497011 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modal the language is a model of programming, while the underlying machine model is a model of computation. 
< 1569291310 637258 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the split between the two is pretty clear; a model of programming requires a validator, compiler or other machinery to function properly prior to performing computations, while a model of computation doesn't.
< 1569291380 263703 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like models of programming because there's always something to be simplified. some underlying detail that can be exposed, judged and eliminated if found redundant.
< 1569291393 795504 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can _build_ models of programming on top of models of computation.
< 1569291440 500482 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a matter of finding just the right match.
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> 1569297985 907314 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66328&oldid=66320 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+87) 10
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> 1569302983 887243 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66329&oldid=66328 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+147) 10
> 1569303820 990110 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66330&oldid=66329 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+102) 10/* Turing-Completeness */
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< 1569312204 65274 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569312537 10358 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning.  Interesting conversation here yesterday, but largely a tangent and I never returned to the thing that started it, which was:
< 1569312545 394335 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's interesting that it's a version of Rice's theorem that holds for programs that are guaranteed to halt.
< 1569312589 626156 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem states that all nontrivial properties of the RE sets are undeciable.  There are gobs and gobs of nontrivial properties of recursive functions that are decidable.
< 1569312779 687554 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem doesn't say anything about sets other than SE sets, and neither, as far as I can tell, does "Rice's theorem for the computable reals".
< 1569312787 672716 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/SE/RE/
< 1569312817 317885 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor would I expect "Rice's theorem for the computable reals" to say anything about sets other than the RE sets, because the computable reals are an RE set.
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< 1569323323 104923 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, I certainly wasn't suggesting that it's a direct consequence of Rice's theorem.
< 1569323405 732227 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem is a connectness theorem, and so is "Rice's theorem for the computable reals".
< 1569323685 788723 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I'm not sure what you're saying here.
< 1569323723 132337 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying "Rice's theorem for the computable reals" is not " a version of Rice's theorem that holds for programs that are guaranteed to halt."
< 1569323762 861130 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem is a statement about the RE sets. So is "Rice's theorem for the computable reals".
< 1569323855 535124 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't say anything useful when you apply them to a more specific set, like R.
< 1569323932 946833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "a version of", I mean "it makes the same statement about a different thing".
< 1569323959 692410 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computable reals are an RE set.
< 1569323972 264452 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not an essentially different thing.
< 1569323995 234151 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what do you mean? Of course it is.
< 1569324001 813508 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explain how.
< 1569324009 988180 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait.
< 1569324012 365975 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the tangent.
< 1569324026 621784 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has nothing to do with machines that always halt.
< 1569324043 39514 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have a version of Rice's theorem that says something about machines that always halt.
< 1569324063 50985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A version of Rice's theorem that holds for [a special set of] programs that are guaranteed to halt.
< 1569324076 115117 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or equivalence classes thereof.
< 1569324092 32682 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In brief, what does this theorem say?
< 1569324100 778303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one?
< 1569324108 534215 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A version of Rice's theorem that holds for [a special set of] programs that are guaranteed to halt."
< 1569324127 447748 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I was just talking about Rice's theorem for the computable reals at that time.
< 1569324138 745113 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does this theorem you refer to, say?
< 1569324143 194761 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A computable real is a program : Q+ -> Q
< 1569324173 190157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such that two computable reals that converge to the same value are considered equivalent.
< 1569324205 318287 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rice's theorem for the computable reals" says that, given a computable real, no nontrivial property of the real number it represents is decidable.
< 1569324240 896080 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The real number it represents" is not a guaranteed-to-halt function.
< 1569324260 767783 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? Functions don't halt.
< 1569324263 156313 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that statement doesn't feel quite right
< 1569324272 779210 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And real numbers aren't functions.
< 1569324283 872309 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The real number it represents" is not a guaranteed-to-halt program.  <--- better?
< 1569324291 796236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, real numbers aren't programs either.
< 1569324309 58715 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You literally just said they were.
< 1569324313 985713 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf | A computable real is a program : Q+ -> Q
< 1569324335 587183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that's probably the thing Taneb was objecting to.
< 1569324342 578837 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on the cusp of concluding you're arguing in bad faith.
< 1569324355 427676 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yikes. Let me try to be more precise.
< 1569324372 386873 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense is a program from Q+ to Q a real?
< 1569324400 318661 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a series of approximations, find a closer approximation?
< 1569324405 167159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A computable real is a special kind of real number.
< 1569324443 123490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "program representing a computable real" -- which I should have a shorter name for -- is a program that can approximate it to any precision you ask for.
< 1569324490 640386 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is the Q+ ?
< 1569324498 212902 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Positive rationals.
< 1569324509 988547 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can know a lot more about that program, that we can know about the computable real that it approximates finite approximations of. You seem to be conflating these two objects.
< 1569324517 561606 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that/than/
< 1569324551 736682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the theorem is definitely about properties of the real represented by the program, not the program itself.
< 1569324559 684335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also the case with the regular Rice's theorem.
< 1569324639 127219 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If r is a computable real, it has a bunch of programs representing it. Say f is one. For any positive rational error bound e, |f(e) - r| < e
< 1569324658 730905 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If P is a function from the computable reals to booleans, then P is either trivial or undecidable", is this a correct statement of the theorem?
< 1569324695 182298 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure.
< 1569324703 299063 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Where I guess "undecidable" means "uncomputable".)
< 1569324726 75916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I should be more careful since I'm trying to be precise.
< 1569324730 104385 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: For "This is also the case with the regular Rice's theorem", could i ask you to actually restate "the theorem is definitely about properties of the real represented by the program, not the program itself" in terms of regular Rice's theorem.
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< 1569324787 732515 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: A function takes an argument which is a computer program. It can decide plenty of those things about those programs. If we insist that it returns the same value for the same computabler real, whatever program we use to represent it, then it's uncomputable.
< 1569324806 561806 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wld agree with that
< 1569324814 157517 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I agree with that too
< 1569324816 5121 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we cannot decide if a computable real is positive
< 1569324858 91832 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We cannot decide programatically in general, certainly
< 1569324887 813448 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We can fairly easily decide whether 4, which is a computable real, is positive or not
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< 1569325003 280244 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The regular Rice's theorem says the same thing.
< 1569325017 972811 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem calls it "semantic properties"
< 1569325096 25168 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So what does any of this have to do with always-halting programs?
< 1569325121 386524 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only that representatives of computable reals always halt.
< 1569325148 45075 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I phrased it in that particular way as a leadup to something else which maybe I didn't say.
< 1569325150 848404 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does Rice's theorem tell you about these representatives?
< 1569325160 400517 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely nothing
< 1569325167 470307 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I agree.
< 1569325193 448457 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I find "It's interesting that it's a version of Rice's theorem that holds for programs that are guaranteed to halt." so misleading.
< 1569325284 774612 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The programs representing computable reals must halt by any reasonable definition
< 1569325296 249446 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or be productive, but that doesn't really work with TMs)
< 1569325298 803431 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it's a version of" doesn't mean "it's a consequence of"
< 1569325328 825081 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's a version of" means it can be stated as a seperate theorem. Can you state it?
< 1569325358 595213 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love to hear this version of Rice's theorem that says interesting things about programs that are guaranteed to halt.
< 1569325363 189073 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem for computable reals?
< 1569325370 368365 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been stated multiple times in the past half hour
< 1569325386 97995 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rice's theorem for the representatives of computable reals.
< 1569325400 466069 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No such thing, just like there's no Rice's theorem for Turing machines
< 1569325419 568012 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I suppose it's too much to hope to hear shachaf agree that there's no such thing?
< 1569325460 158516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like Taneb is mostly in completely agreement with me here.
< 1569325484 33230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I feel like I'm in complete agreement with Taneb.
< 1569325488 39750 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: certainly in the broad strokes
< 1569325503 764548 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Every last detail, no exceptions!
< 1569325531 500635 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, well.  Is the nature of my objection still unclear?
< 1569325543 2800 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If we call the regular one "Rice's theorem for partial functions", then we can call this one "Rice's theorem for the computable reals".
< 1569325573 108116 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case, sure, "Rice's theorem for Turing machines" and "Rice's theorem for representatives of computable reals" don't exist?
< 1569325578 517375 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't care what you call it, I don't care about connectedness, I'm trying to say it has no bearing on always-halting programs.
< 1569325593 846696 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This seems like a silly distinction to make, because Rice's theorem is about both Turing machines and partial functions.
< 1569325632 910312 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I really don't understand what you're saying. Representatives of computable reals are a special set of programs that always halt.
< 1569325645 364446 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know.
< 1569325675 808398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This theorem says, given one of these programs, what can you decide about the thing it represents?
< 1569325682 206134 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather it says you can't decide anything.
< 1569325725 203037 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like you must be reading something more into what I said before but I'm not sure what.
< 1569325752 373169 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm pretty bad at explaining what I'm objecting to.
< 1569325759 744146 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Representatives of computable reals are programs that always halt, and this theorem has a bearing on them. That seems clear and uninteresting so it's probably not what you mean.
< 1569325825 872660 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it must not be.
< 1569325908 538534 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I have a program, call it P.
< 1569325916 646855 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a separate question that I had the other day, which is: Given a Turing machine that's guaranteed to halt, what properties are decidable about the function it represents?
< 1569325928 244075 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose P is known to always halt.  But suppose that I don't know what P is supposed to do.
< 1569325937 410317 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that question had nothing to do with the reals.
< 1569325976 746642 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also nothing to do with Rice's theorem.
< 1569326009 408014 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots and lots of nontrivial properties are decidable for a machine that's guaranteed to halt.
< 1569326027 549148 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Does it accept '123'?"  Well, just run it and see?
< 1569326053 558152 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly didn't have the impression you thought of this as a "separate question".
< 1569326079 662260 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's interesting that it's a version of Rice's theorem that holds for programs that are guaranteed to halt.
< 1569326085 361100 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric : What are other things you can say about programs that you know some things about?
< 1569326091 806269 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric : For example what properties of a total function are decidable given a guaranteed-to-halt program that computes it?
< 1569326235 578361 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, those are separate questions.
< 1569326266 725141 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I was thinking when I said that was: We know Rice's theorem, which is about Turing machines we don't know anything about. But what about the large universe of possible theorems about what's decidable if we know some things?
< 1569326285 230095 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :properties to that can decided by finite support
< 1569326303 493017 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-213-127-58-74.ip.prioritytelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(remove "to")
< 1569326331 622162 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that sounds right.
< 1569326432 44871 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1181
< 1569326433 622980 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1181: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
< 1569326437 518781 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, my confusion was regarding how closely-related you were proposing those statements to be.
< 1569326526 115540 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or questions, rather
< 1569326542 57915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This computable real theorem is certainly not about all Turing machines that always halt. And it's not about them representing the same kind of thing, either.
< 1569326577 470437 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a few offhands sentences 24 hours ago were written confusingly.
< 1569326583 403838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think that's bad faith.
< 1569326867 536492 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you and Taneb both used the word "productive", and I suspect that's how I think of computable reals -- and definitely not as being represented by halting approximation functions -- which probably attributes to some of the confusion too.
< 1569326892 504331 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you'll object to "halting function" again now won't you
< 1569326936 562802 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't going to, but if you're being precise, I don't think a function can halt or not halt (though a partial function can be defined or not defined at a point).
< 1569326957 422492 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can't call them "total functions" because the total functional programming people decided that includes things that map things to bottom
< 1569326977 310007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? No they haven't.
< 1569327072 809694 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was kind of supposed to be a joke.
< 1569327082 983504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah.
< 1569327094 858752 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I don't think there's a big distinction between the "productive" representation and the one I used, except Turing machines aren't usually very good at expressing productivity.
< 1569327127 387252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to add one important distinction, which is that a "productive" machine can't go back and change its mind an unbounded time after it's outputted something.
< 1569327172 629249 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was at no point considering an unretractable output tape - just the regular tape of a TM.  That's how I learned the definition of computable number, that's all.
< 1569327178 887541 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you permitted that with your decimal expansion representation the other day, and it doesn't work.
< 1569327201 57849 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your tape is completely retractable, then you can't get any information at all about the real number in any finite amount of time.
< 1569327207 528833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems pretty bad.
< 1569327256 169802 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what they call "uncomputable", yes.  But at the same time, you don't have to have a strong guarantee about when and where a cell of the tape will never be overwritten.
< 1569327276 543455 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that it will eventually not be overwritten again.
< 1569327296 634259 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Revised" might be a better word even.
< 1569327350 932649 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want the computable real to give me definite information about the real in finite time. I think that's a pretty reasonable request of a program.
< 1569327351 290238 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said yesterday: this is basically Turing's original formulation; apparently it's subtly wrong?
< 1569327374 641541 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finite, but not necessarily known beforehand how much.
< 1569327382 654303 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's wrong in the sense that it doesn't agree with the modern definition, and it's not very useful.
< 1569327632 331101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy enough to fix it to work: You just insist that you can't rewrite the number "too much".
< 1569327659 809715 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, when you write the nth bit, you can't change the number you've already written by more than 2^-n.
< 1569327765 37704 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't disagree with this.
< 1569327772 462663 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like this.
< 1569327823 575411 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you could say, Every finite prefix of a computable real is computable in finite time.
< 1569327850 830828 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That leads into having a halting approximation program.
< 1569327933 24725 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, reals don't have a unique prefix, is what I'm trying to say in the first place.
< 1569327999 331954 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't eventually nail down the first digit of a computable real, then it's not computable.
< 1569328012 937350 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the first digit of 0.333... + 0.666...?
< 1569328050 929017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, "eventually". That doesn't sound very computable to me, if it's not bounded.
< 1569328102 52959 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're okay with "productive".
< 1569328116 595987 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me they're not different?
< 1569328150 86211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm OK with "productive" but not "a productive stream of digits".
< 1569328203 485342 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly because you can't always nail down even the first digit.
< 1569328310 871064 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sum of 0.333... + 0.666... is 0.(3,6)(3,6)(3,6)..., so the first digit to the right of the decimal point is (3,6).
< 1569328362 293220 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that?
< 1569328516 941645 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wouldn't like it.  It's got  something to do with a productive stream of digits.
< 1569328577 118098 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is 0.333... if not a productive stream of digits?  And you're asking me to *add* these objects which you apparently do not accept.
< 1569328604 113078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm bringing up this object to show the problem with the stream of digits representation.
< 1569328619 676004 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe you're still talking about the version that supports rewrites, in which case it works fine.
< 1569328715 124858 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any problem with 0.333... + 0.666... = 0.999..., for what it's worth.
> 1569328765 873825 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66331&oldid=66330 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+2) 10
< 1569328810 417233 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the fact that 1.000... and 0.9999... represent the same number, an actual problem?
< 1569328838 856832 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.(3,6)(3,6)(3,6)... can represent that number too, as far as I can see?
< 1569328909 957933 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 1.111... - 0.111... I might nail down the first few digits as 1.000... but regardless of my choice of which to nail down, it's the same number?
< 1569328991 446721 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand your notation.
< 1569329019 253728 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that if the trillionth digit is a 7, you might have to go back and change the 0. to a 1..
< 1569329890 545733 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, so maybe you can't nail it down until you've passed the trillionth digit.  But there is some point at which you can nail it down.  That's what I mean by "eventually".  If there is no such point, then it's not computable.
< 1569329968 561248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't know what that point is.
< 1569329977 965139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I want out of "computable".
< 1569329989 266029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And also the standard definition.)
< 1569330016 232514 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I should be more careful with saying things like that parenthetical.)
< 1569330038 124449 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it's a computable real, you know that the point exists, at some finite time after you start.  Thus: Every finite prefix of a computable real is computable in finite time.
< 1569330100 773792 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is 0.9 a prefix of 1.001?
< 1569330109 317916 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I misread.
< 1569330638 207144 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway that's why I don't have a problem with writing digits to a TM's tape.  You get the 1st one in finite time, you get the 2nd one in finite time, and so forth.  Maybe this isn't the best way, maybe it's what you and/or Taneb mean by "TMs are bad at that", but I don't see how it's invalid.
< 1569330668 418077 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't report when you have a digit
< 1569330952 876837 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569330975 394963 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fine with that, and also I'm fine with, if you do want such a report, you can use some other representation.
< 1569332458 13338 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: re. models of computation vs. models of programming: an interesting thing though I’m not sure this is how it is?
< 1569333116 818402 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: why do you think that?
< 1569333139 273889 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is a clear distinction, and if we were to program in assembly, our model of programming directly maps to the model of computation
< 1569333241 856029 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: I haven’t read to the end yet
< 1569333545 131808 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: This is the distinction between "Cauchy sequences" (normally used for the reals) and "quickly-converging Cauchy sequences" (normally used for the computable reals).
< 1569333594 72201 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think by "TMs are bad at that" Taneb just meant that there's no standard mechanism for TMs to produce intermediate output. But you can make one up easily enough.
< 1569333613 988516 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway quickly-converging Cauchy sequences have a guaranteed rate of convergence, which makes them useful for computation.
< 1569333765 25829 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :re. that post: hm clearly Minsky machines compute (partial) functions N^m → N^n. These functions of course aren’t that sophisticated but… I don’t see a clear border
< 1569333962 886884 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :still that distinction has some merit
< 1569334356 210561 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :> All those representations  pass Bauer’s first condition — they are directly useful for simulating computations — but they differ widely with respect to the second test, namely the complexity of deciding the language of the representation. => aah
< 1569334357 818852 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:38: error: lexical error at character 's'
< 1569334372 50710 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops I did it again
< 1569335085 683739 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569335287 381677 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569335368 360781 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1569335627 593609 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569335762 928899 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.2.110.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569336984 583611 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pzzxbdkpnwzcmnbk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1569338229 888800 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569339095 52900 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv_: re: that classification, yeah it's incredibly useful. it allows us to actually classify different formal systems.
< 1569339116 100754 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a more productive way than just feeling around.
< 1569339212 860402 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: could you modify modal so I can pipe content to it
< 1569339225 155042 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to write my modal code in vim, and then pipe this content to modal
< 1569339244 598220 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can just call it...
< 1569339251 384644 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: sure, I can do that.
< 1569339265 766277 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't think the clear command works
< 1569339278 24328 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO clear command is very important actually.
< 1569339290 458395 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can dynamically re-arrange statements to your benefit
< 1569339297 100685 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, clear command should be a fundamental importance)
< 1569339310 64344 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the clear command works. it just resets everything to defaults.
< 1569339324 734846 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :line 407.
< 1569339324 864432 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it the other day ... maybe it was on your telnet interpreter...
< 1569339331 470749 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok :)
< 1569339361 840596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll add a command switch to just evaluate a file.
< 1569339498 106936 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just give you an alternative interpreter.
< 1569339520 448682 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should add a switch for interpreter mode
< 1569339526 9977 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, pipe mode
< 1569339527 470765 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1569339547 346023 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :bear in mind, this language/interpreter is not being worked on.
< 1569339720 707301 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need to be :)
< 1569339750 202656 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is very exploratory for me
< 1569339905 353974 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hatebin.com/wljbtaonwn here you are.
< 1569339922 964794 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just run it the same as normal. it'll evaluate your file and exit.
< 1569339933 417687 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :along with printing out the time taken.
< 1569339958 88616 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :to test, just run it with a file containing 1 + 2
< 1569339959 673024 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something.
< 1569340255 4800 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :modal is a bad language because it's unpredictable and masks the underlying model of computation while relying heavily on it for its reduction semantics.
< 1569340483 697326 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: what I was working on _after_ modal is a combinatory interpreter using some of the same evaluation tactics as modal, i.e using a queue.
< 1569340515 616185 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :combinatory logic is confusing even to me, though. not because the underlying model is confusing, but after a certain point, things just look like a mess.
< 1569340528 172708 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was about the time I swapped to more machine models.
< 1569340643 996080 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1569341006 284923 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it's unpredictable"
< 1569341025 609774 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, that was a misspeaking. its evaluation method is unconventional.
< 1569341029 472671 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it can be made predictable
< 1569341041 456114 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using certain patterns or maybe modifying the interpreter behavior a tad
< 1569341136 606260 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better method imho is to keep the _concept_ of term rewriting around, but look at the base model of computation a little more closely.
< 1569341179 890454 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this interpreter is juggling two associative arrays, one of which is totally cleared every time a reduction takes place and is only needed for the internal mechanics of reduction. it is also juggling a queue that holds the entire expression.
< 1569341234 496324 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :dropping the reduction semantics just gives you a queue automaton that behaves a lot like a traditional Forth if you add the right operators other than dup, swap, drop, namely 'last'.
< 1569341329 483278 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the next question is.. is this the right level of abstraction. we've traded something reasonably elegant for a machine model, with instructions executing sequentially, etc.
< 1569341389 376882 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and better yet, is this the right machine model.
< 1569341539 555069 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking maybe assembly with a more modern macro system would be the best.
< 1569341586 680060 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :performant and maintainable code
< 1569341605 418252 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can write a simple interpreter if you keep to a subset of a popular ISA
< 1569341633 661702 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can write in this assembly language forever
< 1569341662 10496 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can build more powerful tools on top of this
< 1569341892 771842 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. if you telnet into imode.tech on port 1024, you can see something I've been working on.
< 1569341923 128015 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a forth-like concatenative language based around queue automata.
< 1569343380 477585 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569343544 781384 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1569343552 169625 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1569344105 682796 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569344711 455784 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 NICK :arseniiv
< 1569348219 108666 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00886e242b7a9a8f83.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569350097 82251 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: read that article you sent me yesterday. very interestign.
< 1569350128 740100 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only further makes me think, why are we not working from machine models
< 1569350194 572618 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it really _does_ prevent us from higher order thinking
< 1569350228 595394 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a register move: ld a, b is /similar/ to a = b; but it's also vastly different
< 1569350244 88630 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = b, a and b are very abstract, whereas ld a, b; these are concrete
< 1569350371 306720 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569350476 868194 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is why stack based languages are appealing
< 1569350758 798557 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the stack provides a way to have arbitrary variables)
< 1569351286 36687 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm seeing that you can write a forth interpreter/compiler in such a way that it can re-arrange the postfix to become prefix
< 1569351289 577820 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ 1 2 vs 1 2 +
< 1569351808 285104 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah one needs to read RTL instead of LTR and reverse arguments of all ops
< 1569351870 372662 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though we can read LTR and use a stack of incomplete applications
< 1569352296 315883 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just saying we can have a forth where we read LTR
< 1569353705 567344 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569353741 630192 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1569353836 753079 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: of course
< 1569353854 817111 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer_: hi
< 1569353860 524755 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup
< 1569353866 395813 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :new eso projects?
< 1569354719 295176 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lf94: a more pure form imo of forth-like langs is ones where a queue is used. because of the universal nature of queue automata (they're turing complete), you can theoretically pack everything from main memory to a call stack onto a single work area.
< 1569354734 327958 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569354802 915734 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's a suitable machine model is something I'm investigating.
< 1569354873 858892 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why wouldnt it be
< 1569354891 735013 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a sucker for minimalism.
< 1569354934 183999 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, the only queue manipulation primitives required for a model like mine are duplicate, swap, drop and an operator I'm calling 'last'.
< 1569354954 184898 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this plus control flow structures and comparisons.
< 1569355007 286339 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569355011 106824 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'last' seems to be a dirty hack as well. it takes something from the end of the queue and pushes it to the start.
< 1569355023 65975 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode call it peek
< 1569355029 135564 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1569355037 360897 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 2 1 last -> 1 3 2
< 1569355041 959441 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: if your queue is circular...
< 1569355046 320955 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it rotate
< 1569355056 575431 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or shift
< 1569355059 665335 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's less of a naming thing and more of an issue with semantics.
< 1569355089 500218 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just like a bitwise shift though
< 1569355096 24934 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a right-shift
< 1569355112 804205 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :left-shift would go the other way
< 1569355116 488842 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 1 3
< 1569355134 726406 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'last' can be implemented in a traditional queue automaton pretty easily: all you have to do is roll through the queue, keeping track of the last logical symbol you encountered.
< 1569355135 944318 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think shifting should be a primitive and is definitely not a hack
< 1569355158 536626 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes linear time and uses the state of the automata's FSM to hold that last logical symbol.
< 1569355172 650555 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about
< 1569355177 243760 :lf94!~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not use a linked list
< 1569355200 504362 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why use one, the interface is the same.
< 1569355856 374210 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW is there a page with computational automata hierarchy? It could be useful for someone
< 1569355900 694016 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’d call imode’s one a half-deque automaton
< 1569355970 168892 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :automata
< 1569355983 53443 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have pop/push at the front and pop from the back, though one can factor dup, drop, swap and last through different set of operations
< 1569356005 869042 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :andrewtheircer_: plural of “automaton” :)
< 1569356015 168253 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was saying
< 1569356018 347518 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :automata is the topic
< 1569356019 746061 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice
< 1569356023 319163 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope we can get to CAs
< 1569356034 145015 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cos i have made a metaphor out of them
< 1569356081 485036 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a discussion of CAs a day earlier
< 1569356109 117162 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though there wasn’t much and it wasn’t the topic itself
< 1569356372 944824 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I'd call it a queue automaton with a built-in.
< 1569356401 4722 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to construct a machine that performs 'last'. it just takes N*M time.
< 1569358117 876120 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569358297 594113 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.202.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds
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< 1569358760 277600 :andrewtheircer_!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs NICK :andrewthediscord
< 1569358765 520430 :andrewthediscord!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs NICK :andrewtheircer
< 1569359412 85519 :andrewtheircer!b2df302d@178-223-48-45.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569360309 207487 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569360527 657658 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1569360732 285763 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569360926 543127 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: in your pythonic C compiler, I saw both s.d and s->d, though you probably saw that already
< 1569360943 986753 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiler-to-C, I mean
< 1569360983 834404 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, never mind
< 1569361002 1838 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, the stack is a local.
< 1569361018 922102 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed that there are *s in functions where s->... etc.
< 1569361020 788205 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bad
< 1569361046 282595 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :`:` is hard to type
< 1569361046 696917 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :`: not found
< 1569361057 459374 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh
< 1569361084 163025 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :today I’m dancing on bots’ legs
< 1569361173 825826 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and `?` and `;` are too even if we take `[…]` as primitive instead of `[` and `]` separately
< 1569361220 233898 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it’s obvious it’s me alone who wanted to type this language :D
< 1569361359 168684 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, for what I know, there’s no sense to encode the fact that `[` and `]` have to be balanced and `?` and `;` should only occur inside `[…]`, in their types
< 1569361409 514454 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t know if it’s even possible, and as a theoretical interest I’d be glad to see how if it is
< 1569361475 928763 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and disregarding these syntactic constraints and `:` all of it is of course typable easily
< 1569361530 618775 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if conservatively
< 1569361598 96085 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569361600 932117 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I have been mulling about in the back of my mind is a graph rewriting language.
< 1569361603 751420 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :e. g. we could allow inside `[…]` a code that grows the stack, but we better disallow that
< 1569361617 283821 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1569361631 110994 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: not like Eoderdrome or what it’s called?
< 1569361646 998506 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
< 1569361683 487068 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah′, it has a fixed initial state
< 1569361703 384830 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not what you think
< 1569361750 191918 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, more flexible.
< 1569361759 717605 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so
< 1569361777 196390 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1569361794 536147 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: also am I right this compiler generates a code for `:` without bound checking?
< 1569361805 389823 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are correct.
< 1569361909 119043 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren’t you afraid somebody will write an OS in this language and make an error using `:`? ::D
< 1569361932 722402 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if someone chooses this language to write an OS in, I'll be too shocked to consider the security issues. :P
< 1569361954 669273 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I personally am afraid of C programs maybe now
< 1569361967 949085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION segfaulted
< 1569361976 279449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gg.
< 1569362000 247295 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graph rewriting language would rewrite undirected, unlabeled graphs.
< 1569362099 68899 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules are of the form a1 a2, a3 a4, ..., aN aM -> b1 b2, b3 b4, ... bN bM;
< 1569362099 925070 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it’s occurred to me now someone could do something with hypergraphs too
< 1569362104 92143 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like Eodermdrome.
< 1569362112 167677 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't.
< 1569362160 432928 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you essentially try to match the graph bit by bit on the left hand side, remove all matched items, and then construct a new subgraph on the right hand side.
< 1569362181 179531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :how should it connect to the old parts?
< 1569362183 807140 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's an explosion: A B -> A B A
< 1569362189 654479 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :err.
< 1569362196 904243 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :A B -> A B, B A
< 1569362226 678376 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd just be an infinite loop because the graphs are undirected.
< 1569362247 514650 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do A B -> A B, B C, C A, you'll generate an ever-expanding loop of vertices.
< 1569362257 642541 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any variables on the RHS are autogenerated vertices.
< 1569362270 520805 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any variables that are unused, rather. sorry, cooking dinner.
< 1569362274 972240 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's an unlabeled multigraph?
< 1569362292 422874 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just an unlabeled graph. multiple edges aren't allowed.
< 1569362322 219870 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I didn't read the adjustment to "explosion".
< 1569362348 787642 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you do A B -> A B, B C, C A, you'll generate an ever-expanding loop of vertices. => not a simple loop though. It would look like some foam
< 1569362364 5092 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would, because it'd match nondeterministically.
< 1569362397 543110 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be a bunch of loops. small ones to large ones.
< 1569362433 742717 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to make anything actually useful, you need to build two things: labels and directed edges.
< 1569362443 638650 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it almost tempts me to analyze how their lengths would be distributed but I don’t know asymptotic methods
< 1569362495 211170 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can abstract high enough until you can build things like lists and sequential statements. you can construct finite state machines.
< 1569362498 309700 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a tape.
< 1569362519 133620 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sky's the limit after that, tbh.
< 1569362534 748643 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : and a tape. => it was obvious in hindsight :D
< 1569362549 610568 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it *still* sounds quite Eodermdrome-y, disregarding the input/output aspects. But maybe the devil's in the details then.
< 1569362556 605070 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build, for example, a lot of RDF stuff.
< 1569362573 858663 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's pretty far from eodermdrome because I can construct arbitrary graphs.
< 1569362617 208596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can reconstruct SPARQL using the language.
< 1569362690 143799 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I dislike about this approach is 1. there's no clear method on storing a graph (many approaches, not all of them ideal), and 2. the rewrite mechanism involves some behind-the-scenes work.
< 1569362840 426513 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no machinery that directly correlates to a graph rewrite language. string rewriting and turing machines/queue machines are pretty much hot swappable.
< 1569362898 640329 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :labeled metavertices and oriented metaedges are an interesting problem, it’s not immediately obvious how to construct them for abstraction not to break when matching them
< 1569363005 463271 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also for the sake of fun I’d consider hyperedges. They don’t seem to make things much easier nor much harder)
< 1569363018 319681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, as a primitive)
< 1569363121 311317 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see a metavertex as a core which encodes its label and has e. g. a special vertex to which “edge hubs” are connected
< 1569363125 214573 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no
< 1569363178 974282 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should delineate parts encoding different things by several graphs not occuring in any other place
< 1569363290 165742 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :like K_n are not hard to match but K_n ⊂ K_(n+1)
< 1569363342 789389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :K_m,n promise more, K_(m+1),n seems not to be a subgraph of K_m,(n+1) if m ≠ n?
< 1569363494 527090 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm what if you allow n = 0
< 1569363528 37373 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has the odd property that K_(m+1),n doesn't have any vertice with degree m+1)
< 1569363544 142231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertex
< 1569363777 802422 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes we should pick m, n large enough
< 1569364187 806148 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569364247 800175 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of issues imo with this kind of rewriting scheme, which is why I've strayed away from it.
< 1569364261 585083 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of times in rewrite languages it's hard to get your code to _not_ do something.
< 1569364269 236399 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569364283 753327 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first let’s encode a vertex labeled n ∈ N as A—(B—)^n where A, B are nice graphs and A has one special vertex and B has two, to link them; and encode an edge → as —C—D—, with former conventions
< 1569364284 630599 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :enter conditional or constrained rewriting
< 1569364316 217404 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we need to enforce constraints on A, B, C, D to not allow accidental matches
< 1569364375 944704 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we need to add “buffer vertices” connecting to a vertex and all the edges incident to it
< 1569364414 934729 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they could connect closely
< 1569364452 142327 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1569364470 730542 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a good idea?
< 1569364602 544245 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the whole thing is a bad idea. I keep coming back to it to see if it's a good one, but every addition is just compensating for something.
< 1569364623 30186 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we need to add “buffer vertices” connecting to a vertex and all the edges incident to it => I mean “connecting to a metavertex and all metaedges…”
< 1569364749 101395 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it certainly seems to not be too effective regarding its implementation nor implementation of something in it
< 1569364772 266925 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be not too*
< 1569364795 381368 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear media is always gonna win out vs. any kind of graph or tree structure.
< 1569364832 346357 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I wonder now how about undirected trees
< 1569364880 330110 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe with a fixed finite set of labels
< 1569364948 896354 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh we could simulate a tape of directed trees
< 1569364976 428195 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode*
< 1569365024 371683 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn’t simulate if subtree patterns aren’t allowed
> 1569365048 704215 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Byter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66332&oldid=49879 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+1) 10
< 1569365234 138259 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569365400 221638 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569366580 90167 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just use a tape instead of a queue.
< 1569366632 957203 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1569366676 178561 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'last' is just "move the tape to the left" anyway.
< 1569366693 587558 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
< 1569366771 478962 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :
< 1569366838 4990 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :use two stacks (a rubber tape)
< 1569366847 577981 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rubber tape?
< 1569366859 986263 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, stretchable
< 1569366866 666558 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :flexible
< 1569366885 532052 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that you can just arbitrarily insert under the cursor vs. moving everything over?
< 1569366891 247130 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569366896 592803 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I was thinking about that...
< 1569367590 192486 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00886e242b7a9a8f83.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1569367645 524959 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm you can use ror and rol (one of them is last) and banish pick, as you can decrement the index and shift it further until it’s zero
< 1569367687 484083 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you’ll need to shift an additional copy of the unchanged index to return back
< 1569367758 713949 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ^ if that’s of any use
< 1569367796 854106 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is last => s/is/formerly known as
< 1569367811 959275 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, it's funny.
< 1569367852 40539 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hatebin.com/ysmcogarab
< 1569367860 949399 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty  much what I did. lol.
< 1569367925 450823 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm seems pretty long
< 1569367976 490820 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I don’t remember all the primitives, what they are this time?
< 1569368010 783125 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup, drop, swap, last, begin ([), repeat (]), if/while (?)...
< 1569368052 958786 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I mis-eyed or something, then
< 1569368061 17552 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are definitions at the top
< 1569368077 44836 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup!
< 1569368217 664992 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm is sswap really swapping two top values and then getting two from the bottom? why is it useful?)
< 1569368304 512682 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I greatly misunderstand now, but maybe I’ll get it soon
< 1569368382 304888 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sswap behaves like forth's swap.
< 1569368408 222932 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :swap grabs the top two values, then enqueues both of them but swapped.
< 1569368415 879788 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaah
< 1569368420 994590 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so grabbing the last two values means they're pushed to the front of the queue again.
< 1569368430 129235 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 3 sswap -> 2 1 3
< 1569368442 688689 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs. 1 2 3 swap -> 3 2 1
< 1569368449 701843 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1 2 dup -> 2 2 1?
< 1569368507 761069 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking today why you call it a queue automaton and didn’t even consider I should reinterpret what swap and dup are doing here
< 1569368569 464486 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 dup -> 1 2 1
< 1569368578 113651 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also interpret it as 1 2 dup -> 2 1 1
< 1569368588 349401 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what how
< 1569368602 150597 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1569368606 123336 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :examine the top of the queue (leftmost item)
< 1569368615 838695 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :enqueue a copy of it.
< 1569368617 513638 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn’t read “1 2 3 sswap -> 2 1 3” properly
< 1569368632 614602 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you take from the right end
< 1569368636 816754 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, sorry.
< 1569368642 362602 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my convention is always from the left.
< 1569368656 70740 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have declare mine too
< 1569368664 554548 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :declared*
< 1569368691 262228 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I think it would go smoothly
< 1569368825 537279 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :telnet into imode.tech, port 1024 to access a REPL.
< 1569368871 541391 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a004c5ea2d18927ccbe.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569368885 713608 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's interesting is that you can define `factorial` as `: factorial range product ;`
< 1569369103 965873 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569369382 157201 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a004c5ea2d18927ccbe.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”
< 1569369904 255491 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I tried to abuse PuTTY for telnet to no result
< 1569370687 25340 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my REPL hung up on you?
< 1569370751 669731 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a terminal window which closes almost instantly
< 1569370781 107177 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... weird.
< 1569370790 67159 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe try netcat instead.
< 1569370862 516874 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh now I get ::> but then a dialog box tells me “connection closed by remote host”
< 1569370882 573093 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1569370885 587553 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :bizzare.
< 1569370910 114743 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no errors on my end.
< 1569371197 480555 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually I'd see "broken pipe" or something.
< 1569371651 613210 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a tape with an insertion feature that can be implemented as a constant time operation is starting to look better than a queue.
< 1569371669 283728 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :can be implemented internally as a circular buffer that can expand on either end.
< 1569371770 332918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway maybe later I’ll run your old interpreter code if it’s not too old yet
< 1569371844 231001 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: https://hatebin.com/usnmammjft in case you want to run the REPL locally, sorry it's not working remotely.
< 1569371934 555265 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: thanks once more!
< 1569371994 801452 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :np.
< 1569372847 742081 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: roll won’t work for a singleton queue but last presumably will, so…
< 1569372848 962477 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I take issue with as well is the concept of "atomization" in the style of bohm. structured languages need validation (matching beginning/ending loops, etc.) while unstructured needs minimal validation (checking that all jumps are within memory bounds).
< 1569372856 581985 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: singleton queue?
< 1569372863 45264 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a queue with a single element?
< 1569372868 109700 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely
< 1569372876 924017 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah...
< 1569372887 33181 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do : roll dup drop ;
< 1569372903 525678 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wouldn’t you make roll a primitive?
< 1569372917 581179 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering that circular buffer thing
< 1569372918 897766 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not, when you can define it?
< 1569372927 14478 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah if I was using a tape, I'd just have left and right.
< 1569372981 174200 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :roll would be 'right' and last would be 'left'.
< 1569372998 671498 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :operands would just look left or right.
< 1569373050 932525 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :argwards and reswards :D
< 1569373063 804385 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were to add two numbers together, for example, it'd "consume" them and insert the result under the cursor. internally, if you wanted to compile this down to something that didn't have insertion/deletion capabilities, you could implement shifting the tape left or right.
< 1569373150 196507 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can do : roll dup drop ; => neat! I haven’t checked immediately
< 1569373186 909661 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I implemented 'dup' to just examine the head of the queue.
< 1569373215 861918 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e 1 2 dup -> 1 2 1, vs. 1 2 dup -> 2 1 1
< 1569373240 243765 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you implemented it to be destructive, you'd do something like : roll dup last drop ;
< 1569373240 541616 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense as you take arguments from the left… or right, I take from the right
< 1569373261 235064 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you mean that distinction
< 1569373289 385359 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. it's either "look at the head of the queue, see what its value is, enqueue a copy of it without dequeueing it."
< 1569373298 790977 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "dequeue an element, enqueue two of that element".
< 1569373308 460139 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use the former, it's just : roll dup drop ;
< 1569373322 585860 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's the latter, it's : roll dup last drop ;
< 1569373326 172092 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I had realized queue programming is so much more fun that stack one some time ago
< 1569373359 223270 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly this is more like tape-based programming with insertion and deletion under the cursor.
< 1569373363 659513 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas I remember writing two or three half-finished stack concatenative language implementations
< 1569373365 671263 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it _is_ hella fun.
< 1569373377 763350 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :same... I used to be a stack evangelist.
< 1569373387 834885 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't justify the juggling and arbitrary stack primitives.
< 1569373398 75066 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: now the tape, yes, it’s still fun and it even acquires additional charm
< 1569373414 667362 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a sketch of a language that was essentially built in two parts.
< 1569373442 398700 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the underlying state machine description of an operation/machine, and the macro language for stitching together machines.
< 1569373463 726080 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never got to a place where I was happy with it.
< 1569373485 166189 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the macro language looked a lot like forth.
< 1569373526 499468 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you placed down a machine, and it was identified to have "anchor points", any machines you placed after that would be "glued" to those anchor points in sequence.
< 1569373586 454628 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1 2 + if 4 5 + ; 6 7 + would reduce to an actual state graph.
< 1569373648 187474 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I just had a non-minimalistic idea: if one is to go with a circular tape to the end, for every operation F there could be a dual operation F* taking each of its arguments from the other end and placing its results likewise, and if you define F, F* is defined automatically as the elementwise * of its body
< 1569373658 478738 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 2 -> + -> if/1 -> 4 -> 5 -> + -> ;       if/2 -> 6 -> 7 -> + -> halt
< 1569373670 795371 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: _exactly_.
< 1569373711 25349 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I still haven’t read the last posts
< 1569373712 64628 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :would definitely want a circular tape. for no other reason than it's confusing when considering boundary conditions.
< 1569373743 498041 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bounded tape is just a circular tape with markers.
< 1569373838 323809 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you _could_ implement a two or one-way infinite tape, though.
< 1569373859 772458 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just insert a blank.
< 1569373919 65160 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did we need an infinite tape yet?
< 1569373932 812161 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs traditionally have an infinite tape.
< 1569373944 119775 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e you can keep going in a direction and you have the memory you need.
< 1569373972 867293 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if your goal is to reach the end of the universe and put a bit there, you can build a machine that does that... but it won't halt.
< 1569373975 655677 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, there is a plan to fit a TM in this setting?
< 1569373988 832832 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what you're slowly drilling down to _is_ a turing machine.
< 1569373996 201067 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/if/ you want to be Turing-complete, you need an infinite number of states (configurations)... the unbounded tape is how TMs achieve that.
< 1569374078 742377 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference here is we're just talking about things built as extensions to TMs.
< 1569374085 102531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I don’t want to end up with TM! :P I’m happy with a circular tape with a thing between two cells working on it, it’s better than a marked cell
< 1569374135 564485 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what's a circular tape but a bounded/unbounded tape that has markers signifying where to seek when you wrap around.
< 1569374180 449844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there is an isomorphism
< 1569374189 97708 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your tape looks like [ 1 2 3 4 >5< ], and you move right, you can seek all the way back to [ and move right once.
< 1569374205 430335 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or how is it called when one bounded tape corresponds to a class of unbounded tapes
< 1569374229 630458 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, of course
< 1569374244 547069 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :point is there's always a way to "drill down".
< 1569374260 329485 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any operation can be reduced to its appropriate state graph.
< 1569374276 518246 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I like the circular presentation, it implies left/right are O(1)
< 1569374293 370070 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. you can "stop" at a certain set of operations and present them as constant time.
< 1569374297 398041 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :on TM they are linear on our tape length
< 1569374298 97063 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and impement them as primitives.
< 1569374360 5449 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what could I say :)
< 1569374432 774422 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only issue I have is the command representation as it stands. this queue language is really just some macros that could reduce to a state graph.
< 1569374466 841083 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ll go sleep of circular tapes of nonstandard lengths flying through ℵ₁ parallel universes
< 1569374478 963524 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha, dream well man.
< 1569374528 522869 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Quit: gone completely :o
< 1569374810 923151 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569375247 120336 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`icode ℵ₁
< 1569375248 407370 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2135 ALEF SYMBOL] [U+2081 SUBSCRIPT ONE]
< 1569377408 868806 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569377620 942022 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569383463 565163 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1569384586 870866 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569386675 387394 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569386860 700681 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
> 1569387275 458141 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66333&oldid=66331 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+6) 10/* Examples */ Hash index starts from 0!!
> 1569388251 407238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66334&oldid=66333 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+149) 10/* Turing-Completeness */
> 1569388324 705143 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66335&oldid=66334 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+53) 10/* Turing-Completeness */
< 1569388769 529708 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
> 1569388828 903655 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[071+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66336&oldid=66335 5* 03TwilightSparkle 5* (+34) 10/* Turing-Completeness */
< 1569389153 153277 :Lykaina!~lyka@unaffiliated/schrodingerscat QUIT :Quit: leaving
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< 1569391225 775658 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
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< 1569395123 197748 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1569397322 609269 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
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< 1569399481 588076 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569400067 102499 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2600:6c58:4200:ad9:158d:b91:c7e6:7b29 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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< 1569403539 681202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah: "As long as theoretical computer scientists can’t even prove basic conjectures like P≠NP or P≠PSPACE [...]"
< 1569403562 327314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from Q8 at https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4317)
< 1569403661 969675 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once witnessed someone trying to explain to somebody who really didn't get it why P is a subset of PSPACE
< 1569403666 338874 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite hillarious
< 1569403723 986056 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuitively this is easy... a P algorithm can only touch a polynomial amount of memory (tape, whatever).
< 1569403742 650822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making it formal is probably quite tedious.
< 1569403743 4829 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it is easy
< 1569403794 504255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Especially if your model of computation is *not* Turing Machines but something closer to reality like RAM machines)
< 1569403920 356289 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whose name is attached to NSPACE(f(x)) = DSPACE(f(x)^2)?
< 1569403934 282094 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk, I've always seen RAM machines as just hiding (a polynomial number of) head movements
< 1569403989 961052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well personally I find P too coarse; exponents matter in practice.
< 1569404027 513379 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the old joke that theory is more important than practice, except in practice
< 1569404128 646256 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Savitch (I meant \subseteq instead of =... I kind of forgot to go back and change it.)
< 1569404292 608132 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's all this about quantum supremacy now. Oh gosh. Scott Aaronson. I'm not sure I want to read this.
< 1569404349 506539 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i once was told a piece of conversation like "so, how are your studies different from mine" "well, we are doing more theorie: runtime analysis, proofs, ..." "if you proove something, it isn't theory anymore"
< 1569404425 563333 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose debunking quantum hype is a noble calling, but so is not caring about it.
< 1569404442 557309 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But he does care now.
< 1569404442 823349 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that article is neither
< 1569404481 266579 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> I should stop trying to make jokes.
< 1569404528 960497 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I didn't observe any joke when I collapsed your sentence.
< 1569404845 930482 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ☰𝌁𝌃
< 1569404846 469226 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2630 TRIGRAM FOR HEAVEN] [U+1D301 DIGRAM FOR HEAVENLY EARTH] [U+1D303 DIGRAM FOR EARTHLY HEAVEN]
< 1569405306 318651 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there also a trigram for just plain earth?
< 1569405500 481880 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: ^^ question for you ;-)
< 1569406227 23248 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ☷
< 1569406227 745153 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2637 TRIGRAM FOR EARTH]
< 1569406821 937016 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw those at home, but at work they're just boxes. :/
< 1569406826 951437 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must be missing some fonts.
< 1569408077 239914 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
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> 1569410471 178831 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Byter14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66337&oldid=66332 5* 03PaniniTheDeveloper 5* (+0) 10
< 1569411963 314614 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1569415117 824784 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e : also ⌜𝌅⌝ (and apparently also ⌜𝌀⌝ ?)
< 1569415134 487192 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 𝌅𝌀
< 1569415135 256812 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1D305 DIGRAM FOR EARTH] [U+1D300 MONOGRAM FOR EARTH]
< 1569415179 951723 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"usually associated with human (Chinese ren), rather than earth" (the latter one)
< 1569415316 419985 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e : i was pondering the other day, using these (mono|di|tri|tetra|hexa)-grams as pixels (sortof), wondering why the internal ordering was inconsistent among them, and trying to make some sense of the associations of different meanings to the bits/trits
< 1569415361 620805 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perhaps the I Ching would explain some of it ?)
< 1569415415 812209 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in particular the internal ordering of the hexagrams is strange)
< 1569415468 531716 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION glances at fizzie
< 1569415780 91715 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Quit: reboot
< 1569415846 13352 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: hmm it embeds a fancy complementation operation (mirror image, except when the symbol is vertically symmetric; in that case, the boolean complement is taken instead)
< 1569415847 338068 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just realized what int-e meant by
< 1569415853 642046 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric : ski: Now does that mean that shift-o (for example) can produce any of A, B, H or I?
> 1569417339 241362 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pie14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=66338 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+327) 10Created page with "==Introduction== Pie is an 2-dimensional esoteric programming language created by [[User:InfiniteDonuts]] that is sort of a [[Befunge]]/[[PATH]] hybrid. Like Befunge, i..."
> 1569417408 470689 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:InfiniteDonuts14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66339&oldid=66269 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+68) 10
> 1569417688 237582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66340&oldid=66338 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+176) 10
< 1569417830 656882 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the github link results in a 404
< 1569417962 332300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :InfiniteDonuts doesn’t have any public repositories yet.
< 1569417970 945514 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may be why
< 1569418090 9511 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
> 1569418415 637574 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66341&oldid=66340 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+5) 10
< 1569418899 705368 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Wen_sequence somewhat explains the duality (but there's also a lot of mystification surrounding all this)
< 1569419247 802820 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder about compiling Scheme to Javascript using CPS. JS has poor TCO support so you'd want to make a trampoline. But would you construct a custom trampoline for each program? It sounds like a neat approach regardless of the practical benefits it may or may not have.
< 1569419476 435418 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember borrowing "Compiling with Continuations" from the library years & years ago. I remember liking it but I never got too deep and I don't remember any of the content specifically.
< 1569419608 65130 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569419664 130241 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's usually an assumption there that you'll be compiling to a machine language that has conventional jumps, though. Compiling to another high-level language with functions (and closures, even), but not TCO, would be putting a different twist on it.
< 1569419706 676605 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's always for (;;) { switch (foo) { ... } }
< 1569419720 684988 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's what I meant by "trampoline".
< 1569419744 628238 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or stuff like  while (next != NULL) {  next = (*next)(); }
< 1569419870 480625 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. I now want to write a Scheme compiler that compiles to trampolined code, as if I don't already have enough on my todo list.
< 1569419888 985762 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1569419895 230755 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, personal interests! You're really helpful sometimes.
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> 1569420404 95512 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66342&oldid=66275 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+10) 10/* P */
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< 1569421906 907773 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569421983 406277 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi hi
< 1569422068 221680 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi arseniiv 
< 1569422223 486639 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought up a monoid thinking about types for stack operations. Though I already knew how to encode them with heterogeneous lists, I think a monoid looks more operationally usable. Or at least it looks neat in case we’re concerned only with stack under/overflow and not types of its elements;
> 1569422325 225916 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07L14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66343&oldid=53989 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+100) 10/* Hello World */
> 1569422397 965698 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07L14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66344&oldid=66343 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+77) 10
< 1569422469 926786 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in generic case, it’s a free monoid on t⁺, t⁻ for all types t, factored by t⁺t⁻ = e; in the simplest it’s a free monoid on +, − factored by +− = e. Now the last one looks almost like integers but with a quirk, so I thought maybe we need to name these things numbers too. Here, all balanced strings of + and − equal to e and we end up with a unique presentation of each element as −^m +^n
< 1569422496 833366 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :in stack op terms it means m elements are popped and then n are pushed
< 1569422513 745621 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can’t pop from empty stack so −+ is not e
< 1569422547 82585 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise with the general version, and we even may generalize to deques
< 1569422635 283074 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :as two ends of a deque are basically independent from this perspective if we don’t know its length
> 1569422636 730451 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pie14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=66345&oldid=66341 5* 03InfiniteDonuts 5* (+87) 10
< 1569422693 363009 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569422705 364037 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, we could do something like this with checking well-placedness of [ and ] but ? and ; would get in the way
< 1569422711 439050 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :himode
< 1569422833 207777 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( now I propose calling those +−-things plumbers as the stack may be viewed as a tube )
< 1569422916 148281 :Frater_EST!~adrianbib@wsip-68-15-198-210.ok.ok.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569422947 653677 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :allo arseniiv.
< 1569423069 983050 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, if you link with -fno-plt, ld will turn statically linked calls from indirect jumps to direct jumps.
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> 1569423342 116264 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Lewis 5*  10New user account
< 1569423486 1273 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, ty
< 1569423516 617630 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv : hm, reminds me of some kind of bra-ket description of something with regexen ?
< 1569423532 252709 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BTW how old is trampoline idea)
< 1569423558 937527 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you could find some mention in some Scheme paper
< 1569423571 42075 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: it reminded me about something QM too, creation and annihilation operators should work that way too IIRC
< 1569423713 890995 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv :  might have some relevant paper about it
< 1569423742 115373 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, sorry
< 1569423751 544669 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey : that ^ was for you
< 1569423901 409233 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you still working with that C compiler?
< 1569423981 243980 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: thanks!
< 1569424031 778209 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: the thing I don't like about my current language is [ and ]. it kind of fails the model of computation check because [ and ] have to be balanced for the underlying logic to work.
< 1569424113 654102 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that a PDA or counter machine is required to validate the language.
< 1569424168 474521 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION supposes it was possibly both for arseniiv and cpressey ..
< 1569424350 152073 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see how pie is notably different from befunge except it being underspecified
< 1569424511 985872 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/dfried/ts.ps talks a bit about the history. As I understand it, the idea is old but appears in slightly different forms and doesn't get the name "trampoline" until about 1995.
< 1569424650 113201 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION supposes cpressey got that link off  :)
< 1569424679 572303 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indirectly, yes (The paper was listed there but wasn't archived; I had to search to find a copy of it)
< 1569424689 31530 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods
< 1569424694 374068 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad the domain expired
< 1569424785 414056 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : arseniiv: the thing I don't like about my current language is [ and ]. it kind of fails the model of computation check because [ and ] have to be balanced for the underlying logic to work. => right. That they stand in the way of typing the program is almost the same thing here
< 1569424832 422076 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: thanks! (hmm I need a postscript viewer…)
< 1569424862 529756 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv : perhaps `gv' ?
< 1569424905 953862 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(someone mentioned `zathura' and `okular' too. and i think `evince' can do it ?)
< 1569424922 527806 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( `xpdf' )
< 1569424990 468187 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a real solution to that problem. apart from manual jumps. I still think there needs to be a linear notation for state machines.
< 1569425032 702494 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on Ubuntu; `evince` can view .ps directly, and there is also `ps2pdf`
< 1569425129 472230 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apparently `ps2pdf` is part of `ghostscript`)
< 1569425264 724610 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv, imode: fwiw, the last few concatenative languages I've designed have not had nesting or names, sort-of for the same reasons you mention. I've been calling them "purely concatenative" for that reason. They're not very nice to program in though.
< 1569425299 378630 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: mine doesn't have nesting. [ and ] form an infinite loop.
< 1569425311 114302 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a control flow construct more than anything.
< 1569425522 924785 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1569425781 976071 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION usually uses `gv'
< 1569425858 639927 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly ponders mapping concatenative to categorical
< 1569425908 328798 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay I converted that ps
< 1569425933 657961 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly ponders how to convert PDF to PS
< 1569425942 681712 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I can uninstall ghostscript mwahaha
< 1569425978 156160 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any structured control flow requires an external validator, so I guess it fits under a model of programming rather one of computation. unstructured, state-driven or pattern-based control flow are the only candidates for a model of computation.
< 1569426133 176183 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are array languages classified under "unstructured", I wonder.
< 1569426169 34498 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :where ?
< 1569426188 524157 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia
< 1569426207 63179 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-structured_programming <-- right-hand sidebar, right under "Non-structured".
< 1569426225 112892 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I guess APL has a goto statement, doesn't it?
< 1569426235 844783 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe they mean "structured" in the sense of the "structured programming" paradigm ?
< 1569426245 372565 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than likely, yeah.
< 1569426254 348033 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which APL fits under.
< 1569426264 516737 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, looks that way
< 1569426270 229262 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :never liked array languages. they're complicated to implement.
< 1569426278 148410 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :NESL ?
< 1569426286 258100 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :NESL?
< 1569426288 629030 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1569426295 962357 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :whazzat.
< 1569426300 197557 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :
< 1569426313 551028 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nested data parallelism"
< 1569426350 237277 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying this isn't complicated to implement?
< 1569426397 532432 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that this fits the definition of an array language.
< 1569426436 337764 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569426960 398677 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, perhaps rather that it is complicated to implement
< 1569426976 61371 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and mayeb fits the definition, not sure ?)
< 1569427072 329108 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well TIL there's a very close correspondence between CPS and A-Normal Form.  (I knew of ANF previously but didn't see the connection to CPS at all.)
< 1569427080 719742 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. I've seen people touting APL and K, etc. as "languages with the smallest implementations", but when your implementations are obfuscated and optimized for size rather than simplicity, it's a moot damn point.
< 1569427102 751293 :cpressey!~cpressey@5.133.242.4 QUIT :Quit: A la prochaine.
< 1569427288 54593 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :array languages _are_ interesting, though. while they do have control flow operations, a lot of code I see doesn't even have any of them.
< 1569427301 402175 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all operations on data.
< 1569427393 263646 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're hella messy, though..
< 1569427550 55351 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O (  )
< 1569427838 70441 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :unstructured control flow is hard to compose without sophisticated tooling, though. for example, creating a state machine that enters either a 'true' or 'false' state upon some comparison operation is fine, but composing two machines means identifying where the "anchor" points are for that given machine and attaching two subsequent machines accordingly.
< 1569428050 757875 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :stitching together state machines is also complex because you need names for duplicate/intermediary states as well...
< 1569428432 802967 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you used a line numbering approach, it could work. you still need some machinery to stitch together arbitrary code snippets, though.
< 1569428587 582776 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( ⌜10 PRINT "VOOB ";␤20 GOTO 10⌝ )
< 1569428711 31346 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: And this chaos, it defies imagination
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< 1569429824 390205 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569429877 26066 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98995.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
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< 1569429998 430319 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life
< 1569431452 406711 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: you could probably get away with not validating [ and ] if you mean [ to be "push a symbol to the tape representing the current instruction pointer" and ] to be "jump to the instruction pointer represented on the tape".
< 1569431542 965317 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :though "conditional/unconditional break" would be difficult at that point, because you have to jump to an unspecified address..
< 1569431703 415360 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I didn't think of, though. relative addressing.
< 1569432197 709915 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1569432336 775172 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: `[ ] ? ;` are not so hard to validate as to represent as something typeful
< 1569432389 711134 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't hard to validate, no. but because they require validation, they don't meet my requirement anymore.
< 1569432433 986908 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also it occurred to me as I drifted off that your new implementation of `pick` now can take any nonnegative integer index. Even if it’s too big, we’ll just wrap around several times and that’s it
< 1569432455 66860 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. :)
< 1569432492 143831 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric : but because they require validation, they don't meet my requirement anymore. => yeah. I meant from my typing perspective
< 1569432498 461355 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh.
< 1569432615 593374 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that’s why compilers don’t use typing as the only kind of static information, but still I’ll be glad to unify them for cases as simple as this
< 1569432735 686835 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it looks too philosophical. There is a constructive approach: program a validator which takes word at a time and then try to encode that as types; this is how I ended up with that +− monoid
< 1569432754 513164 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole thing is largely philosophical lol
< 1569432755 12333 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :previously I thought of those types as m → n where m, n : N
< 1569432807 743329 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in this form they have no easy law of composing (f: m → n, g: m′ → n′, f ∘ g: ???); and the monoid representation has, it’s just a concatenation
< 1569432848 565935 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vertical composition" ?
< 1569432857 659548 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or is it "horizontal" ?)
< 1569432862 475581 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can never recall ..
< 1569432889 371058 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :−+ ∘ −−+ = −(+−)−+ = −−+
< 1569432931 430914 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: don’t remember either
< 1569432972 417049 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though maybe the notation is too cryptic, here f: m → n means f pops m values and then pushes n values
< 1569432979 507170 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or dequeues and enqueues)
< 1569433001 368090 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1569433056 420538 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly wonders whether there's a name for monoids with left- and right- inverses like that
< 1569433126 775790 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :FTR I was going to ask about that too
< 1569433139 552771 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe someone knows
< 1569433185 837688 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem to be in a sense halfway to a free group
< 1569433456 367193 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, first i was going to suggest free group, to you :)
< 1569433479 491098 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(until i saw "we can’t pop from empty stack so −+ is not e")
< 1569433497 107541 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION idly recalls talking to someone doing random walks in groups
< 1569434646 287606 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :also we can define “multiplication” as can be done on (N, +) and (Z, +), by considering all [anti]endomorphisms. Here, they seem to form a group ≅ Z, so this “multiplication” is not that good; anyway “multiplying” by n would mean replacing each ± by ±^n if n ≥ 0, or by ∓^n if n ≤ 0. This makes not a lot of sense for applications of that monoid here, though
< 1569434894 895531 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that be a group action ?
< 1569434898 612449 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that I'm thinking of it, I don't think there's any model of computation that _doesn't_ require some validation of the code prior to execution other than perhaps cellular automata.
< 1569435135 984907 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends how you set things up
< 1569435153 306658 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CA source code is binary strings and CA valid source code is binary strings
< 1569435165 915161 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp source code is ascii text and valid lisp source code is well balanced brackets
< 1569435188 180264 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could say, CA source code is ascii text and the only valid CA inputs are ones only using the 0 and 1 symbols
< 1569435228 919495 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really the case, here. state machines need to be stored in some format in some place, and that format needs to be some form of a state table.
< 1569435255 685194 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck and my language are stored as linear text sequences, but only valid sequences contain matched brackets.
< 1569435303 876483 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAs are literally just "here's some data, with some regions linked together in some topological fashion, and data exists in those regions, and depending on what data is next to what, data in certain regions changes".
< 1569435356 131878 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree completely
< 1569435371 925596 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to, I guess.
< 1569435455 681075 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: if I’m correct it would be a monoid action as (Z, ⋅) is what acts in this case, not (Z, +): m×(n×a) = (mn)a
< 1569435544 140525 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@95.105.11.76.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not (m+n)a)
< 1569435869 989498 :MDude!~MDude@76.5.108.106 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1569435914 491283 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm
< 1569437389 242966 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asm label: nop; nop; addr32; jmp label
< 1569437389 845116 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:  90   nop \ 1:  90   nop \ 2:  67 eb fb   addr32 jmp 0