00:00:28 <Sgeo__> It's just weird because I thought a prototype would be like an example object, and it isn't.
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00:22:23 <int-e> Sgeo_: I agree that it's weird to focus on the delegates when calling JS prototype-based. Object.assign() is the function that actually clones objects...
00:25:08 <int-e> And I forgot how unusual the style of the ECMAscript specification is. (It's not bad! Just completely different from, say, the C standard.)
00:27:39 <int-e> Sgeo_: So... pure speculation: Originally, prototype-based programming was created around the idea of having prototypes that are being cloned. But this is inefficient; a clone will carry all the methods of the original. So in order to make it more efficient, delegation was introduced. And that is a really powerful mechanism, much more interesting than the original prototype idea. So the paradigm...
00:27:46 <int-e> ...shifted, but the original name was kept.
00:29:23 <Sgeo_> function Car(make) { this.make = make }; Car.prototype instanceof Car;
00:29:44 <int-e> Oh... completely different topic what's your favorite way to write Euclid's algorithm in C? There are some degrees of freedom. http://paste.debian.net/1087891/ is my favorite.
00:29:53 <Sgeo_> Was expecting that to give true. It's false
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00:31:11 <int-e> Yeah, the "prototype" field is a misnomer. It's just a delegate for each new instance.
00:31:37 <esowiki> [[W]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63534&oldid=58355 * Odog8 * (+193) 
00:32:35 <int-e> (hmm, I wrote C, but the code I copied was JavaScript ;-) )
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00:36:55 <int-e> In particular, Foo instanceof Bar  checks whether Bar is a function object ("callable") and looks up the prototype field of Bar...
00:37:40 <int-e> Sgeo__: so this kind of matches your expectations... it's the prototype field that really matters... but the fact is swept under the rug.
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00:52:32 <Sgeo__> Object.create(Car.prototype) instanceof Car;
00:52:33 <Sgeo__> true
00:53:44 <Sgeo__> A instanceof B looks at A's prototype chain excluding A itself?
00:54:59 <Sgeo__> https://www.ecma-international.org/ecma-262/9.0/index.html#sec-ordinaryhasinstance
01:03:16 <int-e> yes, that
01:04:26 <shachaf> Aren't objects and classes and instances and prototypes and so on kind of a scam?
01:16:01 <int-e> shachaf: could you please stop throwing out random claims like that
01:20:36 <shachaf> Hm.
01:25:36 <int-e> I think you're systematically starting discussions with statements that are easily offensive to anybody who cares about the topic at hand. It seems to be effective, but it's not nice at all.
01:26:49 <int-e> And if you think about it, saying that something is scow, or a scam, is very shallow; it does not contribute to a discussion at all.
01:27:12 <int-e> </rant>?
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02:38:25 <shachaf> Man, that's not how I mean it at all.
02:38:33 <shachaf> I'll have to think about what to do.
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04:22:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63535&oldid=63509 * Salpynx * (-261) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */ accepting A's improvements to my implementation
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05:59:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Keg]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63536&oldid=63175 * JonoCode9374 * (+595) /* Upcoming Features in Keg+ */ new section
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08:58:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pointless]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63537&oldid=63093 * Traveller * (+183) 
08:59:58 <esowiki> [[Pointless]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63538&oldid=63092 * Traveller * (+27) 
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13:25:46 <esowiki> [[Backshift]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63539&oldid=63465 * Salpynx * (+1840) /* Examples */ 99 bottles, stretching things considerably, but at least it loops.
13:30:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Backshift]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63540&oldid=63535 * Salpynx * (+49) /* Modified version of the removed code from the main page */ allow move_left to wrap, and radix greater than 36 for longer programs (unicode value hack)
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13:31:46 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63541&oldid=63539 * Salpynx * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ off-by-one error in description
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13:53:48 <esowiki> [[Backshift]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=63542&oldid=63541 * A * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ rectwrap
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15:53:45 <arseniiv> imagine there are only tuple constructors and match expressions (and something to make it TC)
15:55:37 <arseniiv> to make things less bearable, only (), id, (,) and (,,) (named 0, 1, 2, 3)
15:57:57 <arseniiv> hm no, not id but the genuine 1-tuple constructor; (x) ≢ x
15:58:16 <arseniiv> then it makes sense a bit to have it
16:03:42 <arseniiv> if x is matched constructor n, you can apply an i-tuple (full, bare constructors aren’t allowed as expressions) to x to extract its i-th component
16:06:11 <int-e> () (x) = x?
16:06:31 * int-e is confused.
16:06:38 <arseniiv> int-e: (x) () = x
16:06:47 <arseniiv> if the thing applied is to the right
16:07:06 <arseniiv> (x, y) () = x, (x, y) (…) = y
16:07:29 <int-e> oh, postfix. hmm.
16:07:33 <arseniiv> (x, y, z) () = x, (x, y, z) (…) = y, (x, y, z) (…, …′) = z
16:07:41 <arseniiv> why postfix?
16:07:54 <arseniiv> ah, you can say that probably
16:08:25 <int-e> you said "apply an i-tuple to x" rather than "apply x to an i-tuple", which I think you meant?
16:08:25 <arseniiv> I think I heard about a language where you could apply an index to an array
16:08:42 <int-e> "apply" is a bit weird.
16:09:26 <arseniiv> maybe!
16:10:05 <arseniiv> anyway it would be like 2xy0 = x, 2xy10 = y
16:10:34 <arseniiv> it needs something fancy for recursion
16:10:42 <arseniiv> or while loops
16:11:24 <arseniiv> and also something fancy for store… stacks and tapes are now officially boring
16:13:19 <int-e> alphabet soup is the best data store
16:14:19 <arseniiv> it’s a real name? :o
16:16:21 <arseniiv> hm seems not
16:17:08 <arseniiv> hm let’s use a dictionary
16:17:40 <arseniiv> so we also will have a way to address relatively
16:18:19 <arseniiv> using e. g. x, (x), ((x)), …
16:19:51 <arseniiv> hm one can do something with chunks of code so if it tries to use a value at index x, it would be actually addressing (x)
16:46:02 <int-e> shachaf: you might enjoy Toonstruck... it's full of awful puns.
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16:46:56 <int-e> (gog has it for free today)
16:53:51 <arseniiv> hm guess I should in the end add a self-encoding (and write the source in it too) and eval (with context-deepening) and an unconditional rerun of what is at address () if there is something other than ()
16:54:51 <arseniiv> also 2 should be infix, 1 postfix and 3 prefix
16:54:59 <arseniiv> yay
16:59:31 <int-e> though shalt not parse?
16:59:43 <arseniiv> definitely yes
17:00:02 <arseniiv> also maybe those dots instead of parentheses to group
17:00:43 <int-e> it's the principled solution to grouping subexpressions
17:01:12 <int-e> as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica
17:04:34 <arseniiv> thanks, I was just going to search that notation specifics
17:08:05 <arseniiv> hm how to organize matching…
17:08:30 <arseniiv> ah
17:09:25 <arseniiv> hm better it’ll be a matching of mere constructor, without destructuring arguments into something
17:09:38 <arseniiv> or it would be a huge notational effort every time
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17:13:11 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-03-28.html#llb
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17:27:14 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah, I remember I talked about them and you showed me one of David Madore’s posts
17:53:21 <arseniiv> and an unconditional rerun of what is at address () if there is something other than () => no, I reconsider. Let there be that same eval, and if the user wants a rerun, let them write it themselves
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18:57:09 <arseniiv> hm I feel some satisfaction with this thing
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19:02:59 <arseniiv> if each parenthesis vanishes leaving a dot, is that enough to get unique reading?
19:06:03 <arseniiv> hm it makes asymmetric dots
19:08:58 <arseniiv> maybe I should take the outermost operation and recursively add dots to its operands and then add more dots to the operation than any operand now has
19:09:53 <arseniiv> also there should be a way to describe economy when the operation is left-/right-associative or when there is some presumed precedence between different operations
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19:16:53 <arseniiv> maybe if one first drops unnecessary parentheses and only 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓃 dotifies the result being concerned only with parenthesized operands’ dots…
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19:26:40 <b_jonas> yay! I just ordered from amazon.com, it's like I'm a mercun
19:27:05 <b_jonas> also substituted an ô for an ő because amazon.com doesn't understand things on top of letters, 
19:27:55 <b_jonas> and successfully found the option to pay in USD rather than let amazon.com rip me off with currency conversion by default like paypal does, because amazon.com doesn't hide that option nearly as well as paypal does
19:28:46 <b_jonas> well, actually it seems to understand one thing on top of letters, but not two things on top of the same letter
19:29:53 <b_jonas> that's better than the bbc
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19:44:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: is double acute really two things?
19:45:08 <arseniiv> (or it displays incorrectly on my side and it’s not the one)
19:45:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: a double acute is two acute accents next to each other. that's two things.
19:47:55 <kmc> I think as far as Unicode concerned it's one character / combiner
19:48:06 <kmc> i mean, is an umlaut also two things?
19:48:25 <kmc> I've never heard of ô as a substitute for ő
19:48:30 <kmc> but people do write ö
19:48:39 <kmc> do any languages have ő and ű besides hungarian?
19:48:56 <kmc> iirc ő is an o that's both an ó and an ö
19:49:05 <kmc> p. esoteric letter
19:50:08 <arseniiv> kmc: yeah, an interesting diacritic use
19:50:28 <b_jonas> kmc: ô was the common substitute when all you had was cp437; later õ became the more common substitute when all you had was iso8859-1 or cp1252 or cp850, and iso8859-1 and cp1252 has õ at the same encoding where iso8859-2 and cp1250 has ő so we got it all the time from incorrect encodings of fonts; but I still prefer ô
19:51:34 <b_jonas> kmc: the umlaut is a good argument of course, because I think amazon.com does understand ö
19:51:47 <kmc> b_jonas: ah, interesting
19:51:50 <kmc> character encodings are such a mess
19:51:52 <b_jonas> obviously the number of things on top of the letter isn't really what counts for them
19:52:20 <kmc> yeah who knows
19:52:54 <b_jonas> and of course ö became a common substitute when all we had was the 7-bit SMS encoding
19:53:34 <b_jonas> that or Ö
19:53:47 <b_jonas> or ø
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19:53:57 <andrew65> here i am
19:54:00 <andrew65> sam i am
19:54:11 <b_jonas> anything really, SMS is just random, not really standardized 
19:54:26 <andrew65> what is this discussion
19:54:31 <arseniiv> a number theory question: if we have three functions: nullary a, unary b, binary c and ternary d, what polynomials could they be to minimize their count in writing not very large nonnegative integer values
19:54:36 <arseniiv> andrew65: hello
19:54:47 <andrew65> when my tear ducts give issue
19:54:50 <arseniiv> there are many simultaneous discussions here
19:54:52 <andrew65> i can't use just any tissue
19:55:06 <andrew65> i need 4 ply 4 ply when i cry
19:55:09 <arseniiv> is that a kind of elaborated spam?
19:55:20 <andrew65> no
19:55:23 <andrew65> it's a spongebob reference
19:56:40 <arseniiv> sorry :)
19:56:43 <andrew65> esolang idea: two programs that interact with each other
19:56:49 <andrew65> one's tape is another's source code
19:56:55 <andrew65> one's IP is another's tape head
19:57:00 <andrew65> and they work off each other
19:57:12 <kmc> b_jonas: do you speak hungarian?
19:57:40 <b_jonas> kmc: yes
19:58:12 <b_jonas> kmc: more importantly, delivery persons here do, which is why I can use hungarian words with ő in the delivery instructions
19:58:39 <andrew65> would my eso idea be cool
19:59:25 <arseniiv> the time will decide
19:59:33 <kmc> b_jonas: oh!
19:59:37 <kmc> wait do you live in hungary?
19:59:41 <kmc> i thought you lived in finland
19:59:45 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, I live in Hungary
19:59:47 <kmc> maybe that's just because you're on IRC
19:59:48 <kmc> ohhh
19:59:48 <kmc> cool
19:59:51 <kmc> <3
20:00:15 <arseniiv> I knew it!
20:00:17 <b_jonas> but I think this channel has more people who live in Finland than people who live in Hungary
20:00:23 <b_jonas> so statistically you were right
20:00:34 <kmc> there are a lot of finns on irc for some reason
20:00:36 <andrew65> i live in serbia
20:00:38 <andrew65> HAHA
20:00:47 <kmc> the IRC encoding is based on 646-fi
20:01:00 <andrew65> i am an eastern european too
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20:02:10 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, freenode changed to that several years ago
20:02:26 <b_jonas> before that they used the one where [ and { were different characters in nicks and channel names
20:02:40 <b_jonas> I still have no idea what they did with nickserv registrations that suddenly started to clash
20:13:29 <fizzie> IRC's inventor is (now) a Googler, right? 
20:13:38 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarkko_Oikarinen "-- has been working for Google since 2011 --"
20:26:16 <b_jonas> `? google
20:26:18 <HackEso> Google is where people are working on [NAME WITHHELD] and [REDACTED], without being evil at all.
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20:58:08 <andrew_> meal
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21:06:11 <andrew_> hello orjan
21:06:29 <andrew_> it's cool how one man created a language based entirely around string replacements
21:06:33 <andrew_> and it's turing complete
21:06:45 <andrew_> mad props
21:08:35 <oerjan> <andrew65> one's IP is another's tape head <-- i vaguely think there is one already
21:09:04 <oerjan> andrew_: tswett[m] made it, i proved it.
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21:09:26 <oerjan> well dependent on which language.
21:09:38 <oerjan> i guess thue might also fit the description.
21:10:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: which string replacement language is that?
21:10:51 <b_jonas> I don't know which one tswett made
21:11:00 <oerjan> that would be ///
21:11:02 <b_jonas> oh, slashes
21:11:05 <b_jonas> nice
21:11:32 <oerjan> oh and brian & chuck is the one i thought of for the first comment
21:11:54 <arseniiv> I can’t make myself to write a truth-machine for my new eso, it’s too hard. I don’t even want to write a code which tells if outer constructors of two terms are the same
21:12:56 <arseniiv> which is needed to test equality, which is needed to tell 0 from 1
21:13:19 <tswett[m]> Lemme see if I can send a message starting with /.
21:13:31 <b_jonas> /// no you can't
21:14:09 <tswett[m]> ///
21:14:12 <tswett[m]> Well, look at that.
21:14:24 <arseniiv> //
21:14:27 <b_jonas> but that makes a commenbt
21:14:34 <arseniiv> one / is no go :(
21:14:44 <oerjan> / no it's not
21:14:53 <arseniiv> in my client, it is :P
21:14:57 <b_jonas> /* you need a star or else it's division */
21:15:11 <b_jonas> a = b \
21:15:13 <b_jonas> / 2
21:15:15 <tswett[m]> // blah
21:15:24 <tswett[m]> I can do two, I don't know how to do one.
21:15:33 <arseniiv> /
21:15:37 <arseniiv> wow!
21:15:48 <arseniiv> in my case, \/ worked
21:16:11 <b_jonas> now start a message with \/ then
21:16:29 <arseniiv> if I can’t write in my eso, is it a sign it should be published? B)
21:16:36 <arseniiv> \\/
21:16:53 <b_jonas> not quite
21:16:57 <arseniiv> this line is less or equal than that one
21:16:59 <b_jonas> \/ one backslash and one slash
21:17:04 <pikhq_> Either a terrible or fantastic sign, and it's hard to say which without knowing specifics.
21:17:25 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah I see :D
21:17:37 <arseniiv> / another est
21:17:44 <arseniiv> \\\/
21:17:49 <arseniiv> okay I quit
21:17:54 <tswett[m]> So like,
21:17:57 <tswett[m]> /
21:18:04 <tswett[m]> Look at that.
21:18:18 <tswett[m]> \/
21:18:20 <tswett[m]> Fancy schmancy.
21:18:33 <tswett[m]> Anyway. Where was I.
21:18:37 <arseniiv> tswett[m]: in your case, how did you do \/?
21:18:46 <b_jonas> ok, now put an unpaired \x01 at the start of your message
21:18:47 <tswett[m]> /// is the best esolang I'll ever create.
21:18:51 <tswett[m]> Two backslahes and a forward slash.
21:19:00 <tswett[m]> \/
21:19:12 <arseniiv> yeah in my case it doesn’t work
21:19:14 <arseniiv> \\/
21:19:33 <b_jonas> (you can't, because the C channel mode forbids it)
21:19:38 <arseniiv> my client is bad! very pessimistic and something something
21:19:50 <b_jonas> arseniiv: try typing / \/
21:20:43 <fizzie> /say \/ and /msg #esoteric \/ are other common workarounds.
21:21:07 <arseniiv> /
21:21:11 <arseniiv> \/
21:21:15 <arseniiv> yay
21:21:29 <arseniiv> let’s return to what was discussed
21:21:46 <b_jonas> what was discussed? string-rewriting languages?
21:22:25 <arseniiv> or maybe specifically ///, IDK
21:24:14 <b_jonas> but what language was andrew_ thinking of?
21:24:41 <arseniiv> a random quote from wiki> Due to IRP's nature, any quine is potentially a severe DDOS worm. 
21:25:30 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I bet something underspecified and mysteriously concise
21:53:25 <Cale> An activated Mutavault is a mutant ninja turtle.
22:10:18 <esowiki> [[User:Arseniiv/0123 (draft)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=63543 * Arseniiv * (+3881) Created page with "0123 is a foolish language, being so far in a draft state and primarily assembled at 2019-06-15, by [[User:Arseniiv]]. Hopefully its not a word for word copy of some other..."
22:10:34 <shachaf> Cale: Hale
22:10:38 <shachaf> Is Prismata dead?
22:12:50 <Cale> Not completely dead, but it's not doing as well as anyone would have hoped
22:14:16 <Cale> There are still people logging in and playing every day, but whatever they're doing as far as marketing the game hasn't really been working so well.
22:41:43 <b_jonas> Cale: it's also a Pirate Ship, but it's not a Hero or a Lord or an Anteater these days
22:43:52 <b_jonas> and as of recently, it's also an Army in itself
22:51:39 <b_jonas> it's also a Deserter because of a certain interesting old card, a Vehicle Pilot, a Carrier Processor. creature types are Weird.
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