2019-05-01: 00:03:37 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 00:03:59 -!- Frater_EST has left. 00:15:52 `? html5 00:15:53 html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex 00:16:07 `slwd html5//s,$,., 00:16:10 html5//html5 is something that should definitely not be parsed with regex. 00:32:01 [[Err]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61465 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+788) Created page with "'''Err''' is an esoteric programming language based on errors. ==Keywords== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Keyword !! Meaning |- | err || Catch an error. |- | throw || Throw an err..." 00:32:51 [[BrainCrash]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61466&oldid=61460 * Oerjan * (-15) Standard section name + template 00:33:47 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:46:01 [[Err]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61467&oldid=61465 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+382) 01:04:03 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 01:04:19 -!- Frater_EST has left. 01:55:48 [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61468&oldid=57263 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) 02:06:41 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61469&oldid=61462 * A * (+166) 02:08:54 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61470&oldid=61277 * A * (+1757) Add implementation by Helen 02:09:30 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61471&oldid=61469 * A * (-3493) Clear page 02:12:37 [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61472&oldid=61449 * A * (+2) /* Syntax */ 02:13:25 [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61473&oldid=61450 * A * (-10) Improved code representation 02:22:16 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61474&oldid=61470 * A * (-68) /* Number tricks */ 02:27:20 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61475&oldid=61474 * A * (-17) /* Number tricks */ 02:29:42 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61476&oldid=61475 * A * (-43) Improved algorithms 02:33:06 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61477&oldid=61476 * A * (+28) /* Number tricks */ 02:37:37 [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61478&oldid=61472 * A * (+165) /* Syntax */ 02:38:54 [[JCLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61479&oldid=61478 * A * (+61) 02:41:09 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61480&oldid=61477 * A * (-1) /* Number tricks */ 02:43:06 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61481&oldid=61471 * A * (+94) To clarify 02:47:14 [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61482&oldid=61481 * A * (+70) 02:56:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61483&oldid=61458 * A * (+19) Remind us that what we are doing is equivalency, not just compiling. 02:58:04 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61484&oldid=61483 * A * (+206) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 03:01:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61485&oldid=61484 * A * (+203) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 03:01:33 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:26:04 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 03:32:17 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 03:33:23 -!- Frater_EST has left. 03:39:37 [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61486&oldid=61468 * A * (+1) 03:58:49 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 04:48:33 [[Increment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61487&oldid=60458 * A * (+66) /* Partial Implementation */ 04:52:08 [[Increment]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61488&oldid=61487 * A * (+355) /* Partial Implementation */ 04:54:18 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61489&oldid=56728 * A * (-418) Blanked the page 04:54:56 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61490&oldid=61489 * A * (+298) Undo revision 61489 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 05:05:00 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61491&oldid=56749 * A * (+334) Add another 2 examples 05:05:57 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61492&oldid=61364 * A * (-224) /* Cheating Versions */ 05:08:39 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61493&oldid=61491 * A * (+230) /* Examples */ 05:13:52 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61494&oldid=61485 * A * (+1) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 05:48:31 https://i.redd.it/6qkjbtrf5iv21.jpg 05:48:34 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 05:50:25 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 06:13:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:47:38 AAAAAAAA? 06:47:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:51:21 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:53:43 ÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅ! 06:57:40 AAAAAAAAAAAAA! 07:33:53 HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ~Link 08:05:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:56:07 [[AT]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61495&oldid=61318 * IQBigBang * (+919) 09:33:26 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 09:43:25 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 610 seconds). 09:46:12 -!- mniip has joined. 09:56:07 [[C()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61496 * Rdococ * (+1773) error: called object C is not a function or function pointer 09:59:37 [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61497&oldid=61496 * Rdococ * (+0) 10:03:04 [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61498&oldid=55323 * Rdococ * (+81) /* Esolangs of mine that I consider decent, or are yet unevaluated */ Added C() 10:04:53 [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61499&oldid=61497 * Rdococ * (+60) Added pronunciation. 10:07:49 -!- b_jonas has joined. 10:10:58 [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61500&oldid=61499 * Rdococ * (-1815) rethinking this 10:12:39 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61501&oldid=61453 * YamTokTpaFa * (+187) 10:13:33 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61502&oldid=61501 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) 10:34:44 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:35:11 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:06:28 -!- TheWild has joined. 11:59:40 -!- TheWild has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:11:17 -!- Hooloovoo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:13:40 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 12:14:14 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61503&oldid=61492 * YamTokTpaFa * (+150) 12:20:14 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:20:40 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:29:46 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 14:10:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:46:03 `ftoc 67 14:46:04 67.00°F = 19.44°C 14:48:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:06 [[Oneline]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61504 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+843) Created page with "Oneline is an object-oriented esoteric programing language designed to be as compresed as posible. ==Instructions== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Character !! Function |- |..." 14:57:36 [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61505&oldid=61504 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Instructions */ 14:59:16 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61506&oldid=61505 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+22) 15:06:58 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61507&oldid=61506 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+78) /* Sintax */ 15:07:34 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61508&oldid=61507 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+6) /* Sintax */ 15:10:41 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61509&oldid=61508 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+115) /* Instructions */ 15:13:01 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61510&oldid=61509 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+95) /* Sintax */ 15:15:12 [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61511&oldid=61500 * Rdococ * (+1238) Readded page. 15:16:00 it's not "wall-clipping" it's "quantum tunnelling" lol 15:17:44 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61512&oldid=61510 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+175) /* Sintax */ 15:18:10 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61513&oldid=61512 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Sintax */ 15:19:01 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61514&oldid=61513 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Sintax */ 15:19:12 -!- tromp has joined. 15:19:59 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61515&oldid=61514 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+57) /* Sintax */ 15:20:11 [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61516&oldid=61515 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-3) /* Sintax */ 15:22:42 [[Oneline]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61517&oldid=61516 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+76) /* Instructions */ 15:51:53 [[C()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61518&oldid=61511 * Rdococ * (-6) 16:06:52 `? everyone 16:06:53 Everyone in here is mad. 16:08:17 `? metronome 16:08:19 A metronome is an ancient and highly sophisticated instrument typically used in the player variety in conjunction with another, simpler instrument. hppavilion[1] is learning to play one. Taneb invented parts of it at regular intervals. 16:08:20 `? tanebventions 16:08:21 Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 16:52:31 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:37:25 `smlist 17:37:26 smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 17:54:31 -!- Coates has joined. 18:14:43 -!- Coates has quit (Quit: Page closed). 18:18:34 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 18:47:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 18:49:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:49:41 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 19:22:09 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:40:31 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:46:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:50:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:46:16 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Structuresend * New user account 20:51:06 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61519&oldid=61464 * Structuresend * (+181) 20:59:21 -!- MDude has joined. 21:20:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:22:54 `? allosaurus 21:22:55 allosaurus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:34:45 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Blinry * New user account 21:35:06 [[Brainbot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61520 * Structuresend * (+2790) Created page with "'''Brainbot''' is a programming language based on Brainfuck created by structuresend (Alex Costea), meant to be an easy and powerful model of computation. It uses 6 characters..." 21:36:38 `cwlprits password 21:36:40 int-̈e fizzïe int-̈e int-̈e b_jonäs int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän 21:37:12 probably not my turn :) 21:38:01 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61521&oldid=61519 * Blinry * (+199) /* Introductions */ blinry 21:38:26 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovoo. 21:39:44 [[User:Blinry]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61522 * Blinry * (+57) Created page with "Hi, I'm blinry! My homepage is [https://morr.cc morr.cc]." 21:40:54 [[Err]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61523&oldid=61467 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1170) Blanked the page 21:41:52 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61524&oldid=61520 * Structuresend * (+114) 21:44:24 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Blinry * uploaded "[[File:Legit-hello.png]]": A "hello world" program writen in [[legit]]. 21:44:54 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Blinry * uploaded "[[File:Legit-brainfuck.png]]": A fully-functioning Brainfuck interpreter written in [[legit]]. 21:46:58 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61527&oldid=61361 * Structuresend * (+15) /* B */ 21:48:27 `learn The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats. 21:48:29 Relearned 'password': The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats. 21:49:09 `? security key 21:49:10 security key? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:49:55 where do I get the security key? 21:49:57 `? password 21:49:58 The password of the month has been replaced with a security key for protection against advanced persistent threats. 21:50:04 `? keyt 21:50:05 `? key 21:50:09 keyt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:50:10 key? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:50:10 `order key 21:50:12 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: order: not found 21:55:02 [[Legit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61528 * Blinry * (+925) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=legit |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:blinry]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |typesys= |memsys=stack-based, tape-based |dimensions= |class=:Cat..." 21:55:15 [[((?)?)?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61529 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+423) Created page with "'''((?)?)?''' is an esoteric programing language made by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]]. ==Memory Structure== In ((?)?)? there ar tree loctaions to store data: * The bit (a..." 21:55:31 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61530&oldid=61524 * Structuresend * (+3) 21:56:04 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61531&oldid=61529 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Memory Structure */ 21:58:10 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61532&oldid=61530 * Structuresend * (+21) 21:58:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:00:10 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61533&oldid=61532 * Structuresend * (+44) 22:06:50 -!- structuresend has joined. 22:08:48 hello! 22:17:11 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61534&oldid=61531 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+613) 22:17:42 `welcome structuresend 22:17:43 structuresend: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 22:18:01 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61535&oldid=61534 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Nor operator */ 22:18:04 I mean, I guess that's a little redundant, it's clear you came from the wiki. But still. 22:18:33 `? security key 22:18:35 security key? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:19:23 `learn The security key of the month is "suspicion mankind subdivision dial". 22:19:25 Learned 'security': The security key of the month is "suspicion mankind subdivision dial". 22:20:40 The security key of the month has been replaced with a PIN code for protection against advanced persistent threats. 22:20:55 or maybe with a security token 22:21:08 I've long thought about buying one of Yubico's YubiKeys, but it's just the littlest bit too expensive to get for no particular purpose. 22:22:04 fizzie: I have one of these security key generator hardware fobs for online banking, with an LCD display that shows a number 22:22:13 I have three of them. 22:22:13 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61536&oldid=61535 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+122) /* Concepts */ 22:22:18 (For three different banks.) 22:22:29 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61537&oldid=61533 * Structuresend * (+49) 22:22:38 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61538&oldid=61536 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+11) /* Concepts */ 22:22:57 Actually two of them are like that, the third has a slot for the bank's debit card and I think that's what actually runs the stuff. 22:23:08 The two that don't have a smartcard reader are much smaller. 22:23:53 Also, I have a proxy token that opens both the house door at home and three different doors in the office building at work. It still seems a bit futuristic to me that there's a single kind of token that's well-spread enough that I can use the same one at both places, independently installed. 22:24:36 Just imagine if someone had a car and could use the same proxy token in the car key for such doors. 22:24:56 I mean, car keys have had such a thing for a very long time, even before central locks. 22:25:13 Used just for an immobilizer with a reader at the engine start keyhole. 22:25:52 But these days they have like both a passive proxy token for that, and an active radio-frequency opener for the central locks of the car. 22:26:08 Plus there are garage door openers, also with active radio-frequency stuff. 22:26:39 And rf light switches 22:26:46 and remotes for TV and radio 22:28:10 Well, these days you can also have your always-listening smart speaker unlock your door with a voice command. 22:28:21 (Potentially shouted by someone from outside the door.) 22:29:24 I'd still prefer if they made building doors so that I can open them with a fucking ordinary metal key, because those are at least reliable, but apparently they don't want to do that, 22:29:45 instead they only have the proxy token and a keypad with password 22:29:55 both of which often have the hardware break down so they can't read 22:31:15 I don't like them 22:32:16 [[Brainbot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61539&oldid=61537 * Structuresend * (-54) 22:36:17 -!- structuresend has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:42:34 I think I remember reading about a lock manufacturer that made one of those combined mechanic/electronic locks (like ABLOY PROTEC CLIQ) except one where the electricity for the electronics is generated from the mechanical motion of inserting the key. 22:42:54 IIRC, it was very fiddly, you had to insert the key just right (speedwise and such) for it to work. 22:44:03 fizzie: yes, we used to have those 22:44:10 um no 22:44:12 not like that 22:44:20 the electricity wasn't generated by the key 22:44:46 the key just turned a switch that activated the same switch that you could also activate with the keypad password or the token, thus opening the magnetic lock 22:45:04 even that is better than just the keypad and token, because it's more reliable 22:45:21 http://www.futureaccess.co.uk/PDF/locks/iLoq_C10S.2_lock_cylinder.pdf "The iLOQ C10S.2 lock cylinder is powered by harvesting electricity from inserting of the iLOQ K10S.1 key." 22:45:23 but the best method is when the key opens the lock purely mechanically 22:45:27 Not sure if it was that one. 22:45:36 I don't know why we can't just keep using that 22:46:31 I think because it's expensive to revoke keys in that model. 22:46:37 At least that's been my impression. 22:46:59 so? these are low security locks where anyone can just watch people enter their code on the keypad, or tailgate 22:47:05 they only get in the corridor, not farther 22:47:27 and they almost never change the keypad code or revoke tokens 22:47:33 so it's not like it matters 22:47:33 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:47:49 they're not like the apartment doors, where I do change the lock core after two lost keys 22:51:14 I don't know, I'm not responsible for managing any system of locks. I think they do want to at least make a best-effort attempt to keep unauthorized people out. But it's true that it's trivial to tailgate in here. 22:51:29 fizzie: not even the one on your own home? 22:51:50 or your bicycle or a locker or anything? 22:51:50 I guess I didn't really count that as a "system of locks". 22:52:03 I meant something more ambitious. 22:52:05 well I have two locks on my apartment door, so that's a system 22:52:06 it depends on how many locks you have on your house too 22:52:30 and I partly managed the locks at my parent's house while I lived there 22:52:33 replaced one of the locks 22:52:39 since then both locks have been replaced 22:52:54 The downstairs bike rack cage has the same kind of token reader lock as the corridor doors, but it also has a regular 4-digit combination bike lock on the door as well. 22:53:06 like, the house I grew up with has three doors, each with two cylinders 22:53:06 I don't know what's the story there, the extra lock had just appeared one day. 22:53:14 I also manages some locks at the summer house of my grandmother, that our extended family uses 22:53:21 I replaced two of the locks there and distributed keys 22:53:25 I think that counts as a system 22:53:37 because I replaced two different locks by a pair of twin locks with shared key 22:54:36 here at this home so far all I had to do was distribute the existing keys of the existing locks 22:56:31 but there are like a ton of different keys 22:58:32 two for the apartment entrance, proxy token and keypad code for the house entrance, key for the postbox, a key for my storage space in the basement and two keys for the door to enter the basement itself (only one of them is usually locked), 22:59:23 plus the key for the lock at the summer house that I mentioned, the key for my grandmother's house, and four keys and a proxy token for my parent's house 23:01:28 I don't even have all keys. the summer house has like five keys and a code in total, even though I don't have copies of the other keys, and my parent's house have six keys. 23:02:11 or maybe more 23:03:07 yay keys 23:24:23 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Structuresend * moved [[Brainbot]] to [[Promo]]: renamed language 23:25:14 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61542&oldid=61540 * Structuresend * (-6) 23:26:10 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61543&oldid=61527 * Structuresend * (-3) 23:29:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:39:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:49:33 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61544&oldid=61538 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1362) /* Sintax */ 23:52:12 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61545&oldid=61544 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+72) /* Symbols */ 23:56:52 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61546&oldid=61545 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+35) /* Sintax */ 2019-05-02: 00:10:15 `ping 00:10:15 hmph 00:10:16 pong 00:16:28 pong 00:16:34 piong 00:18:09 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61547&oldid=61546 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+66) /* Hello, World! */ 00:27:34 @ping 00:27:35 pong 00:27:44 `ping 00:27:45 pong 00:27:50 seems to be ok now 00:31:12 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:33:07 [[C()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61548&oldid=61518 * Rdococ * (-1078) WIP 00:36:35 C() is a cool name for an esoteric language that tries to adapt first-class functions to C's way of doing things, although I'm not sure how I'd do it. 00:38:07 rdococ: isn't that C++ ? 00:38:19 Does C++ have first-class functions? 00:38:33 yes 00:38:46 I know there is a compiler extension for C that adds nested functions, but they can't exit their scope. 00:38:53 C also has first-class functions. 00:39:02 Or first-class function pointers, but that's all you need. 00:39:18 How can you create new functions using function pointers? 00:39:26 C does have function pointers; C++ also has closures 00:40:18 I'm officially a dumbass. I remember reading, very recently, that C++ has closures. Looks like it didn't originally, but it does now. 00:40:39 (That's not to say it was that recent, it was at least 8 years ago, perhaps more than that.) 00:40:59 rdococ: allocate executable memory, write macine code in it that runs function according to abi calling conventions (restore callee-saved registers if you modify them), cast pointer to first byte of instruction to the right king of function pointer 00:41:01 rdococ: the old way in C++ is to make a class which implements operator() and also has member variables for whatever free variables the closure needs to capture 00:41:23 b_jonas: but that's nasty and should never be necessary in well designed code 00:41:34 rdococ: this is very cumbersome so C++11 added lambdas 00:41:40 kmc: I wouldn't say that 00:41:50 b_jonas: writable executable memory -- I'm gonna stop you right there 00:41:51 I'd say that JIT is certainly overused 00:42:02 well ok 00:42:10 if you are talking about an actual JIT, fine 00:42:19 if you're just trying to use bare function pointers as closures, don't 00:42:33 and some people think it's a silver bullet and call for it as a kind of premature optimization or when it doesn't help at all 00:42:45 pass a (function pointer, void*) pair, or a pointer to an object with a virtual method, or any of a bunch of other essentially equivalent solutions 00:42:50 but it's not true that it's never necessary 00:43:12 well of course not 00:43:22 My original plan for C() supported first-class functions stored only on the stack. The idea was that functions that you send to other functions ("downward funargs") are easier to implement, but parts of the program that need to send functions upward would be converted to continuation passing style. 00:43:23 Did you know that if you link binary data into your program, with ld --format=binary, it'll automatically make the stack executable+writable? 00:43:27 you shouldn't usee them instead of just closures 00:43:37 C++ lambdas are pretty fancy. they can capture by copy, move, or reference, and (starting in C++14) they can be polymorphic 00:43:45 shachaf: no... why... 00:45:17 However, I think I want to apply the basic idea of "CPS for upward funargs" to a slightly higher level language instead. 00:45:35 Because every object you link has to have a special symbol or something to indicate it's OK with not having an executable stack. 00:45:49 If anything is missing that symbol, the linker automatically makes your stack executable. 00:46:05 :( 00:46:16 thanks linker. thinker 00:46:31 well sure, that's necessary for backwards compatibility 00:46:50 You can pass -z noexecstack if you want to (that's what I'm doing). 00:46:59 what are you making? 00:47:55 A program with a UI that embeds a font into the executable. 00:48:17 And maybe other things. I just wanted to see what it would take to make it standalone. 00:49:38 ok 00:50:32 rdococ: clang also adds yet another form of first class functions ("blocks") to C and ObjC and ObjC++ and maybe regular C++ 00:50:49 those have a fairly complicated ABI which is tied to the ObjC runtime 00:51:01 and I think they only have dynamic dispatch 00:51:25 whereas C++ lambdas are compatible with the "zero-overhead" static polymorphism style of modern C++ 00:51:46 so you can apply a bunch of high-er-order combinators like map, filter, etc. and get code that compiles down to a single flat loop 00:52:17 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61549&oldid=61542 * Structuresend * (+31) 00:52:34 every C++ lambda has its own, un-nameable type which subclasses an appropriate instantiation of std::function 00:52:49 for dynamic polymorphism you upcast a reference-to-lambda into a &std::function 00:53:37 for static polymorphism you call a function template, implicitly instantiating one of the template parameters at the specific lambda's type 00:53:52 this is also why 'auto' is an essential part of C++11 and not just a convenience 00:54:33 it allows you to have local variables whose types are these un-nameable things 00:55:15 C++ is scow 00:55:28 that's why my program is written in c 00:55:57 Rust works much the same way, and also in Rust, every non-lambda function has its own type as well, and that type has zero size (because it has no captures, and because you know which function to call from the type itself) 00:56:37 I don't recall how C++ handles that but anyway, it allows you to instantiate those same HOFs on a named, non-capturing function without creating a function pointer, which would actually cause more overhead than the lambda way 01:04:17 [[User:Blinry]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61550&oldid=61522 * Blinry * (+18) 01:06:00 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:11:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:11:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:12:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61551&oldid=61543 * Blinry * (+12) +legit 01:14:35 -!- sombrero has joined. 01:15:02 [[Legit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61552&oldid=61528 * Blinry * (+145) Added categories! 01:16:54 Pardon the interruption, what is the computational power of a markup language , adding only a conditional IF ? inthe spirit of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag 01:17:56 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:21:03 -!- ocharles has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:22:52 -!- mich181189 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:26:36 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 01:27:15 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:27:28 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:31:21 -!- dingwat has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:32:14 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:46:44 -!- ocharles has joined. 01:47:30 -!- mich181189 has joined. 01:47:53 -!- glowcoil has joined. 01:48:19 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 01:52:21 -!- dingwat has joined. 02:07:10 [[Teg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61553&oldid=60986 * A * (+64) 02:09:19 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:19:28 cheking... 02:22:31 :) 02:22:38 -!- sombrero has quit (Quit: Page closed). 02:37:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61554&oldid=59418 * A * (+12301) Copy the whole thing here for making my own golfing language 02:51:21 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61555&oldid=61554 * A * (-203) 03:02:34 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Err]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "'''Err''' is an esoteric programming language based on errors. ==Keywords== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Keyword !! Meaning |- | err || Catch an error. |- | throw || Throw an error. |- | inport || Inport a library. |} ==Sint..." 03:12:16 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61556&oldid=61555 * A * (-12098) Blanked the page 03:15:58 [[Brianfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61557&oldid=55758 * A * (-31) 03:16:20 [[Briefscript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61558&oldid=55991 * A * (-29) 03:16:35 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61559&oldid=56780 * A * (-25) 03:17:02 [[Golfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61560&oldid=59707 * A * (-30) /* Partial implementation in C++ */ 03:17:28 [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61561&oldid=55726 * A * (-30) 03:19:09 [[Losescript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61562&oldid=61561 * A * (+30) Sorry for accidentally editing this page 03:19:27 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61563&oldid=57041 * A * (-30) 03:19:31 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 03:20:44 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61564&oldid=61559 * A * (-30) 03:20:50 -!- Frater_EST has left. 03:24:15 -!- J_Arcane_ has joined. 03:24:59 -!- glowcoil_ has joined. 03:25:02 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:25:02 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane. 03:25:08 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:25:09 -!- glowcoil_ has changed nick to glowcoil. 03:51:29 -!- Hooloovoo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:54:10 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 04:37:35 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 05:15:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:10:52 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:18:30 The Shaders on ShaderToy are 4 dimensional (with time as a dimension). Wonder how difficult it would be to rotate some 06:49:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:50:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:01:58 -!- glowcoil has quit. 07:02:21 -!- glowcoil has joined. 07:07:02 -!- J_Arcane has quit. 07:07:19 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 07:52:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:10:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:02:17 -!- user24 has joined. 10:12:52 [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61565&oldid=61350 * A * (+1013) 10:17:05 [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61566&oldid=61565 * A * (+316) 10:18:03 [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61567&oldid=61566 * A * (+38) 10:19:10 [[Minic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61568&oldid=61567 * A * (+8) 10:19:17 -!- ProofTechnique_ has joined. 10:19:25 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 10:19:44 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:19:45 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 10:19:49 -!- ProofTechnique_ has changed nick to ProofTechnique. 10:22:20 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:22:34 [[Minic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61569&oldid=61568 * A * (+84) 10:38:17 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:35:47 -!- atslash has joined. 12:03:22 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:11:27 [[Talk:Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61570&oldid=54002 * A * (+199) /* txeT */ 12:16:47 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:18:08 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:21:02 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 13:14:19 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:14:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:15:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:15:46 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:17:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:23:07 -!- atslash has joined. 13:57:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:19:01 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:21:04 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 14:58:39 -!- moei has joined. 15:23:55 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:12:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:21:59 -!- JRT has joined. 16:22:04 sup my ppls 16:24:02 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:38:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:40:13 hello JRT 16:50:16 -!- JRT has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:07:06 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:07:53 -!- atslash has joined. 17:12:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:15:24 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:31:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:20 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:14:52 -!- MDude has joined. 18:18:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:18:28 -!- MDead has joined. 18:20:53 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:20:54 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 18:21:21 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:24:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:24:45 -!- tromp has joined. 18:28:39 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:29:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:32:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:35:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:47:21 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 18:50:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:50:29 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 19:17:15 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61571&oldid=61521 * Sollyucko * (+187) Added myself 19:20:16 [[BareMinimum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61572&oldid=60805 * Sollyucko * (-38) Fixed typo & formatting 19:24:58 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61573&oldid=61547 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-121) /* Nor operator */ 19:25:19 [[User:Sollyucko]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61574 * Sollyucko * (+67) Created page with "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sollyucko wp:en:User:Sollyucko]" 19:25:59 [[Folders]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61575&oldid=47151 * Rottytooth * (-149) removed dead link 19:27:50 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61576&oldid=61573 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+30) /* Symbols */ 19:30:36 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61577&oldid=61576 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+97) /* Groups */ 19:31:14 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 19:32:12 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61578&oldid=61577 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-139) /* Examples */ 19:34:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:41:42 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61579&oldid=61578 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+82) 19:49:59 ais523: have you got any new results on that letter rearrangement problem? 19:53:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:04:59 -!- tromp has joined. 20:09:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:10:03 [[Run On Off]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61580 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+301) Created page with "Run On Off is an [[meta-language]] and [[matrioshka language]] designed so it can be interpreted with just an interruptor that turn on/off a light, the human brain and a paper..." 20:13:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:33:52 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:34:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:34:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:03:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:09:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:14:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 21:45:33 -!- tromp has joined. 21:52:16 am I the only one to wonder why the ICFP contest for this year is not announced yet? 21:52:26 has nobody volunteered to organize it? 21:52:33 -!- atslash has joined. 22:01:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:01:59 -!- tromp has joined. 22:06:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds). 22:33:11 -!- tromp has joined. 22:37:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds). 22:54:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:57:08 . o O ( the contest is dysfunctional ) 23:01:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:04:11 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:12:47 `? icfp 23:12:48 I see functorial people. 23:24:19 [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61581&oldid=61580 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+184) /* Syntax */ 23:32:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:38:05 [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61582&oldid=61581 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+426) /* Syntax */ 23:39:49 [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61583&oldid=61582 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+20) /* Syntax */ 2019-05-03: 00:04:46 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:07:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:09:03 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61584&oldid=61551 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+14) /* Non-alphabetic */ 00:11:33 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61585&oldid=61579 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13) /* Sintax */ 00:13:15 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61586&oldid=61585 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Symbols */ 00:17:36 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61587&oldid=61586 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+94) /* Examples */ 00:40:40 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:19:47 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61588&oldid=61490 * A * (+169) 02:21:27 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61589&oldid=61493 * A * (-8) Fix invalid program descriptions 04:09:43 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:35:31 -!- tromp has joined. 05:13:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:16:23 -!- tromp has joined. 05:25:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:37:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:37:44 -!- tromp has joined. 05:42:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:06:44 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:07:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:27:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:28:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:49:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:52:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:53:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:02:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:22:41 [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61590&oldid=60952 * A * (+339) Made a partial proof 07:24:27 -!- tromp has joined. 07:28:14 [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61591&oldid=61590 * A * (+440) /* Computational class */ 07:28:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:29:31 [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61592&oldid=61591 * A * (+124) /* Computational class */ 07:32:31 [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61593&oldid=61592 * A * (+58) /* Computational class */ 07:34:35 [[Drive-In Window]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61594&oldid=61593 * A * (-54) Simplify proof (the menu is useless) 07:38:14 [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61595&oldid=61594 * A * (-38) /* Computational class */ 07:39:24 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:39:36 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:56:17 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:56:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:12:22 -!- tromp has joined. 09:16:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:47:10 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:00:33 -!- tromp has joined. 11:04:55 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:12:05 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:12:24 -!- tromp has joined. 11:14:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:49:11 -!- tromp has joined. 11:53:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:57:59 did https://morr.cc/legit/ already was discussed here? 12:00:12 apparently it was 12:00:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:01:21 I missed it, so thanks. 12:04:21 it does have a wiki entry, i assumed whoever wrote this also went by here 12:11:40 The edits went unnoticed, I guess. No discussion here so far. 12:12:10 -!- tromp has joined. 12:23:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:27:10 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:28:03 myname: interesting. so it doesn't just store the state under version control like hackeso or wikiplia do, but the version history actually matters in ways that it shouldn't, it's not used as just a history 12:28:12 the only thing I recall that's like that is `list 12:29:27 i like the argument of it being not being able to be version controlled via git 12:30:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:31:07 myname: it could be if we could just get http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions to work 12:31:50 we could also use pijul! 12:38:44 I was talking about it in another channel yesterday 12:40:31 i really want to use it, but i am stuck with git at work and way too lazy to learn two drastically different approaches 12:45:21 Hmm, I had a probably terrible idea for a VCS recently 12:47:17 elaborate 12:48:10 wDon't pretend there's any sort of linearity 12:48:24 Each commmit specifies a set of previous commits it depends on 12:48:47 . o O ( seems to me you're reinventing darcs ) 12:50:12 Though the darcs repository is still sequential, hence all the mess with commutation. 12:51:05 I think I'm trying to use Git in a weird way 12:51:44 -!- tromp has joined. 12:54:16 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:54:45 git is flexible enough to support being used in weird ways ;) 12:55:26 Though I guess making a soup of initial commits and a single merge commit is kind of difficult. 12:55:48 on the UI level 12:58:52 -!- Lykaina has joined. 12:59:59 hi 13:00:32 making an octal-based language 13:01:35 4 octal "digits" containing 16 commands and a 1-byte payload 13:01:47 any advice? 13:02:15 you need to be way more specific. so far it just sounds like you are creating assembly 13:03:26 16 commands is not assembly 13:03:54 i just started it 13:06:02 trying to figure out what the 16 commands should be 13:06:20 Taneb: welcome to the club. ais523 and me also have possibly terrible ideas for VCS 13:06:27 -!- Cale has joined. 13:07:44 ais523's idea is to write an entirely new one, and call it scapegoat rather than aivcs; my idea is to extend svn to turn it to a distributed version control system (with limitations) 13:09:49 Lykaina: 16 commands, 1 byte long operand? like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Viktor%27s_amazing_4-bit_processor ? 13:10:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:15:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:17:19 wob_jonas: thanks 13:17:37 -!- tromp has joined. 13:31:06 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TonyBrown148 * New user account 13:46:30 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:36:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:38:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:50:40 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61596&oldid=60951 * A * (+104) Add a "better" version of the one in the tutorial 14:54:33 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61597&oldid=61596 * A * (+17) /* Fizzbuzz Program */ 14:55:10 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61598&oldid=61597 * A * (+69) Add a spec 14:56:31 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61599&oldid=61598 * A * (+111) /* Fizzbuzz Program (loops up to 100) */ 14:56:59 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61600&oldid=61599 * A * (+19) /* Cat Program */ 15:03:51 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61601&oldid=61549 * Structuresend * (+26) 15:14:37 -!- tromp has joined. 15:15:16 [[Promo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61602&oldid=61601 * Structuresend * (+19) /* Busy Beaver lower bounds */ 15:19:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:54:09 -!- tromp has joined. 16:22:33 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61603&oldid=61380 * Void * (+40) 16:27:36 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:35:29 -!- Lykaina has left. 16:46:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:53:04 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JussefSwissen * New user account 16:55:43 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61604&oldid=61571 * JussefSwissen * (+238) 17:07:07 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:08:06 -!- quintopia has joined. 17:19:33 [[Pi(e)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61605 * Areallycoolusername * (+202) Created page with "Pi(e) is an esoteric programming language based on the product of the formula, pi(e) or pi times e. == Specifics == This language is based on the first 100 digits of pi, times..." 17:20:48 -!- tromp has joined. 17:25:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:31:06 -!- tromp has joined. 17:54:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:57:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:58:39 -!- tromp has joined. 18:51:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:52:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:20 -!- tromp has joined. 18:54:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:58:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:04:14 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:27:53 -!- atslash has joined. 19:29:41 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:45:31 -!- tromp has joined. 19:49:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:04:46 -!- tromp has joined. 20:10:28 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61606&oldid=61587 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Full adder */ 20:19:16 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61607&oldid=61606 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+142) /* Symbols */ 20:20:05 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61608&oldid=61607 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Cat */ 20:25:15 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61609&oldid=61608 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+61) /* Half adder */ 20:27:21 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61610&oldid=61609 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+19) /* Half adder */ 20:46:56 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61611&oldid=61610 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+255) /* Code snipets */ 20:47:43 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61612&oldid=61611 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Half adder */ 20:51:30 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61613&oldid=61612 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-4) /* Code snipets */ 20:52:35 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61614&oldid=61613 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Groups */ 20:53:18 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61615&oldid=61614 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Groups */ 20:53:45 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61616&oldid=61615 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Nor operator */ 20:55:33 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61617&oldid=61616 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Code snipets */ 20:57:35 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61618&oldid=61617 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Half adder */ 21:04:20 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61619&oldid=61618 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+93) /* Symbols */ 21:15:38 [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61620&oldid=61619 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+120) /* Code snipets */ 21:17:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:20:00 [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61621&oldid=61620 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+2) /* Memory Structure */ 21:43:53 -!- ocharles has quit (*.net *.split). 21:43:53 -!- Soni has quit (*.net *.split). 21:43:53 -!- Bowserinator has quit (*.net *.split). 21:43:53 -!- moony has quit (*.net *.split). 21:55:14 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:10:18 -!- Soni has joined. 22:10:18 -!- ocharles has joined. 22:10:19 -!- moony has joined. 22:10:19 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 22:29:00 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:42:55 -!- MilkyWay90 has joined. 22:43:01 Hai 22:43:22 Would anybody like to program in Turing Machine But Way Worse? 22:43:29 It's on the website tio.run 22:45:04 https://github.com/MilkyWay90/Turing-Machine-But-Way-Worse I guess? 22:45:13 yes 22:45:29 How did you know? 22:45:38 Did you see tio.run's link to TMBWW 22:45:51 tio.run is blank without javascript. 22:46:37 Oh 22:46:47 Then how did you get to the github page 22:47:17 by googling the language name 22:47:36 or duckduckgoing fwiw 22:47:48 Really? 22:47:59 My programming language shows up? 22:48:31 Anyways gtg make it print out "esoteric" 22:48:37 A program in TMBWW 22:48:41 -!- MilkyWay90 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:01:26 Not sure about the "way worse"... it's stuck with a binary alphabet, but that's fairly standard. From a programming language perspective the fact that I/O is not interactive may be awkward. 23:15:01 -!- MilkyWay90 has joined. 23:15:19 Hey I'm back 23:15:57 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 23:17:04 hi 23:24:17 MilkyWay90: you'll notice this is a slow channel at most times 23:25:03 Oh, okay 23:25:06 Anyway, I had one comment while you were gone: Not sure about the "way worse"... it's stuck with a binary alphabet, but that's fairly standard. From a programming language perspective the fact that I/O is not interactive may be awkward. 23:26:00 The I/O was made for codegolf.stackexchange.com 23:28:30 It's really more of an observation than a complaint... we have a few esoteric languages with no interactive I/O. 23:28:38 Yeah 23:28:43 Like BF sometimes does 23:29:12 The "way worse" basically means "I/O" 23:30:26 Oh, there are more trivial restrictions: if the input consists of many zero bytes a program won't be able to tell that apart from an empty tape. 23:30:50 (8-bit Brainfuck has similar problems.) 23:31:13 Yeah 23:31:15 -!- b_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:32 Anyways gtg I'll come back tomorrow 23:31:43 Have to eat dinner and practice piano 23:31:45 -!- MilkyWay90 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 23:46:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:54:25 -!- Frater_EST has left. 23:55:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 2019-05-04: 00:00:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:07:15 -!- cactus5 has joined. 00:11:31 Hello! Could someone hint me one what esolang is this code from? : 00:11:37 M73 P0 R2 M201 X9000 Y9000 Z500 E10000 M203 X500 Y500 Z12 E120 M204 P2000 R1500 T2000 M205 X10.00 Y10.00 Z0.20 E2.50 M205 S0 T0 M107 M115 U3.1.0 M83 M204 S2000 T1500 00:12:05 oh \n didn't paste ... sry 00:14:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:16:06 * oerjan doesn't recognize that 00:16:35 @metar ENVA 00:16:36 ENVA 032350Z 30010KT 9999 FEW047 OVC064 03/M02 Q1004 RMK WIND 670FT 31015KT 00:22:16 -!- cactus5 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:22:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:00:06 Looks very much like G-code except without any G commands. 01:00:31 yep 01:00:37 In particular, I think "M115 U3.1.0" is Prusa's "print firmware version" special. 01:00:59 I kind of think it is G code 01:01:04 in some form 01:01:18 :O 01:01:50 If it's not "real" Gcode, it's at least clearly inspired by. 01:01:55 Oh, they're not here any more. 01:02:10 Well, you win some, you lose some. 01:05:55 -!- dog_star has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:06:31 -!- dog_star has joined. 01:08:33 . o O ( dog star? you can't be sirius. ) 01:46:48 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61622&oldid=61600 * A * (+213) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */ 01:58:38 [[Drive-In Window]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61623&oldid=61595 * Oerjan * (-776) Sorry, but it's really not TC. 02:00:32 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61624&oldid=61622 * A * (+215) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */ 02:01:56 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61625&oldid=61624 * A * (+13) /* 99 Bottles of Beer Program */ 02:16:41 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61626&oldid=61604 * TonyBrown148 * (+219) 02:23:12 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61627&oldid=61625 * A * (-213) trivial 02:31:18 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61628&oldid=61627 * A * (+42) /* Fibonacci Numbers */ 02:37:32 I changed my NNTP server to return a 503 error instead of 500 for the NEWGROUPS command. 02:39:08 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61629&oldid=61503 * A * (+34) /* Karma */ 02:44:59 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61630&oldid=61628 * A * (+40) /* Truth-machine */ 02:48:44 (The RFC requires that the NEWGROUPS command is implemented if reader capabilities are available, but does not require that this command lists newsgroups that the server does not know the creation date of. Since I am not keeping track of creation dates for newsgroups, I just put 503 instead.) 02:55:24 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61631&oldid=61630 * A * (+109) /* Infinite loop(very trivial) */ 02:57:31 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61632&oldid=61631 * A * (-55) /* Ongoing code snippet to input an integer */ 03:03:25 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61633&oldid=61632 * A * (+107) /* One-line integer input */ 03:18:13 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61634&oldid=61633 * A * (+96) /* _ re-written in Keg */ 03:19:07 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61635&oldid=61436 * A * (+95) /* Julia */ 03:21:15 [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61636&oldid=61635 * A * (+4) /* Keg */ 03:21:29 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61637&oldid=61634 * A * (+4) /* Deadfish */ 03:25:43 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:27:29 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61638&oldid=61637 * A * (+247) Computational class 03:29:43 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61639&oldid=61638 * A * (-28) Wait a second, it is too complex to be a Turing tarpit. 03:31:15 [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61640&oldid=61280 * A * (+10) 03:35:22 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61641&oldid=61339 * A * (+6) It is boring, so I will comment it out. 03:35:34 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61642&oldid=61641 * A * (+1) 03:42:26 I also recently fixed a error where it would not work properly if a command included trailing spaces. 03:42:38 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61643&oldid=61639 * A * (+326) /* Non-cheating variation */ 03:43:09 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61644&oldid=61643 * A * (-1) /* Explanation */ 03:43:38 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61645&oldid=61644 * A * (-70) trivial 03:46:09 [[User:TonyBrown148]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61646 * TonyBrown148 * (+127) Created page with "I am TonyBrown148. The creator of TBF TBF BF --- -- < < > >+ ; , if current cell is 0 and . otherwise | [ || ]" 03:46:40 [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61647&oldid=61646 * TonyBrown148 * (-2) 03:56:56 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61648&oldid=61645 * JonoCode9374 * (-76) This version of Keg won't be rewritten... Instead, a new improved version of Keg is being worked on. 04:14:45 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61649&oldid=59422 * TonyBrown148 * (+623) Add TonyBrown148's Attempt 04:15:38 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61650&oldid=61649 * TonyBrown148 * (+18) add some information 04:16:31 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61651&oldid=61650 * TonyBrown148 * (+0) /* Step 3(Merge I/O) */ Delete a space 04:18:55 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61652&oldid=61651 * TonyBrown148 * (+12) /* Step 3(Merge I/O) */ Changed the phrase because ; makes the text bold. 05:30:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:32:41 `unidecode 〈 05:32:42 ​[U+2329 LEFT-POINTING ANGLE BRACKET] 05:33:34 WHY IS IT WIDE 05:33:44 AAAAAAAAAA 05:46:52 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61653&oldid=61648 * A * (-2) /* Deadfish */ 05:55:48 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61654&oldid=61653 * JonoCode9374 * (-2) /* Deadfish */ - - > Ascii code for B is 64. 05:56:50 -!- gerzytet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:56:53 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61655&oldid=61654 * JonoCode9374 * (+1) /* Deadfish */ realised I should have used @ 05:57:13 -!- gerzytet has joined. 06:03:59 my font now encodes lowercase digits! 𝟷𝟸𝟹𝟺𝟻𝟼𝟽𝟾𝟿 06:04:12 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61656&oldid=61655 * A * (+122) I had it 1 byte shorter 06:52:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:54:30 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61657&oldid=61656 * A * (+113) /* Deadfish */ 06:55:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:56:48 [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61658&oldid=60470 * A * (-2) grm 06:58:22 [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61659&oldid=61658 * A * (+13) Make the definition general 06:58:51 [[Bootstrap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61660&oldid=61659 * A * (+4) Another grm 07:00:57 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61661&oldid=61657 * A * (+15) Specify 07:05:20 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61662&oldid=61661 * A * (+62) /* Factorial */ 07:16:03 -!- wmww has joined. 07:21:20 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61663&oldid=61662 * A * (+76) /* User Defined Functions */ 07:29:18 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61664&oldid=61663 * A * (+108) Improved command glossary 07:30:15 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61665&oldid=61664 * A * (-11) Shorten 07:31:10 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61666&oldid=61665 * A * (-33) /* User Defined Functions */ 07:38:49 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61667&oldid=61666 * JonoCode9374 * (+216) /* User Defined Functions */ - - added a little note 07:40:31 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61668&oldid=61667 * JonoCode9374 * (+13) /* User Defined Functions */ formatting improval 07:44:14 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61669&oldid=61668 * JonoCode9374 * (+49) /* Example Programs */ Dice simulator 07:54:31 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61670&oldid=61669 * A * (-4) /* User Defined Functions */ 08:04:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:56:52 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:22:43 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61671&oldid=61670 * A * (+1) Wrong order 09:26:00 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61672&oldid=61671 * A * (+72) /* Dice simulator */ 09:32:26 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61673&oldid=61672 * A * (+96) /* Dice simulator */ 09:54:15 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:54:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:02:15 -!- glowcoil has quit. 10:02:39 -!- glowcoil has joined. 10:07:47 -!- J_Arcane has quit. 10:08:06 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 10:16:55 -!- b_jonas has joined. 10:33:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:46:49 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61674&oldid=61673 * A * (+5) /* Dice simulator */ 10:52:24 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61675&oldid=61674 * A * (+0) Whoops, the compilation specification is in the wrong order. 11:13:41 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61676&oldid=61675 * A * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ 11:13:52 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61677&oldid=61676 * A * (+0) /* One-line integer input */ 11:14:08 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61678&oldid=61677 * A * (+0) /* Factorial */ 11:14:23 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61679&oldid=61678 * A * (-1) /* Digital root calculator */ 11:17:58 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61680&oldid=61679 * A * (+0) /* Fizzbuzz Program (loops up to 100) */ 11:21:01 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61681&oldid=61680 * A * (+2) /* Deadfish */ 11:24:31 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61682&oldid=61681 * A * (+44) /* One-line integer input */ 11:26:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:26:33 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:27:37 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:33:39 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61683&oldid=61682 * A * (-4) /* Truth-machine */ 11:38:00 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61684&oldid=61629 * A * (-5) /* Keg */ 11:39:10 [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61685&oldid=61636 * A * (-3) /* Keg */ 11:40:17 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61686&oldid=61363 * A * (+29) /* ISCOM */ 11:51:59 [[Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61687&oldid=61683 * A * (+42) /* Dice simulator */ 11:52:46 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61688&oldid=61687 * A * (-2) /* Looping counter */ 12:07:26 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61689&oldid=61688 * A * (+23) /* Looping counter */ 12:09:07 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61690&oldid=61689 * A * (+0) Capitalize all ascii 's 12:14:05 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61691&oldid=61690 * A * (-327) /* Non-cheating variation */ 12:16:26 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61692&oldid=61691 * A * (-20) Shorten 12:26:11 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61693&oldid=61692 * A * (+420) /* Fibonacci Numbers */ 12:33:30 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61694&oldid=61693 * A * (+233) Trivial, and add how to implement logical operators. 12:35:25 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61695&oldid=61694 * A * (+98) /* Logical operators */ 12:53:44 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:10:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:24:03 -!- atslash has joined. 13:31:31 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61696&oldid=61652 * TonyBrown148 * (+167) /* TonyBrown148's attempt */ Change | 13:32:28 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:40:37 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61697&oldid=61448 * YamTokTpaFa * (+6) /* Other example */ 13:41:37 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61698&oldid=61697 * YamTokTpaFa * (-25) /* Examples */ 13:41:49 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:45:32 -!- syb has joined. 13:46:54 -!- syb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:47:20 -!- syb has joined. 13:48:14 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61699&oldid=61686 * YamTokTpaFa * (+388) 13:55:50 -!- syb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:01:14 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61700&oldid=61695 * A * (+2) /* Logical operators */ 14:04:36 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61701&oldid=61700 * A * (-83) /* Fibonacci Numbers */ 14:12:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:13:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:15:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:17:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:18:55 how is the Great Firefox Outage of 2019 getting on? 14:29:49 -!- moei has joined. 14:33:28 -!- atslash has joined. 14:34:52 [[History (programming language)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61702 * A * (+1026) Add an esoteric data structure AND a joke language. 14:34:56 hmm, they found an interesting way to do an emergency fix; there's an optional (enablable/disablable in preferences) feature that allows the mozilla devs to run studies, and they created a "study" that fixes the certificate issue (presumably with an explicit whitelisting)? 14:35:53 [[Esoteric data structure]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61703&oldid=59923 * A * (+50) Add my idea. 14:38:48 -!- yaewa has joined. 14:38:56 [[History (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61704&oldid=61702 * A * (+331) /* The History data structure */ 14:39:10 [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61705&oldid=61704 * A * (+13) /* An example session of History */ 14:39:12 -!- yaewa has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:40:11 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:41:13 [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61706&oldid=61705 * A * (-24) /* An example session of History */ 14:45:05 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61707&oldid=61135 * A * (+99) /* General languages */ 14:46:11 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:47:03 -!- b_jonas has joined. 14:53:04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsXpLx4soQY 15:09:46 -!- MilkyWay90 has joined. 15:09:56 I am back 15:11:58 -!- MilkyWay90 has quit (Client Quit). 15:23:23 -!- moei has joined. 15:25:47 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:40:15 ais523: Looking at the "study" XPI file, what it does is it injects a certificate to the browser's certificate store, and then triggers a re-verification of (extension?) signatures: http://ix.io/1I13/js 15:42:32 fizzie: that makes sense 15:42:55 ("doTheThing" is a good name for a function.) 15:43:10 although now I'm wondering how they ensured the extensions were signed by that certificate, maybe there's some sort of indirection involved 15:45:00 .t 16:00:55 rain1: cryptic! 16:01:04 (pun fully intended) 16:21:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:22:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:23:18 I am using a old enough version of Firefox that I am unaffected. 16:24:54 zzo38: well, it's about signing on extensions; if you don't use extensions or if you don't use Mozilla's mechanism for signing them, you won't be affected 16:26:32 (normally I wouldn't add the second part of that disjunction, but if there are people out there who use Firefox extensions but some unusual method of loading them, I'd consider zzo38 to have a fairly high probability of being one of them) 16:27:29 Hmm not sure how I'm escaping this. 16:28:24 Maybe because Firefox has been running for a while? 16:29:28 I do use many extensions, but do not have updates and signing checking of extensions enabled (I have some unsigned extensions, since sometimes I have to modify them) 16:31:55 "The fix will be automatically applied in the background within the next few hours." <-- not sure how I'm supposed to feel about this statement. 16:33:45 automatic updates are off here as well (which I hope invalidates that statement as well) 16:35:42 And it seems that the lack of automatic updates keeps the installed addons functioning as well. 16:35:47 int-e: the current fix is based on a run-arbitrary-code-via-telemetry feature that can be enabled and/or disabled 16:35:58 it's separate from the updates, but someone who disables updates would probably disable that to 16:35:59 *too 16:36:57 int-e: The setting should be under Privacy & Security / Firefox Data Collection and Use / Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla / Allow Firefox to install and run studies. 16:37:02 I think I went through everything with "telemetry" in the name recently and disabled that. 16:37:37 yeah that's disabled. thanks! 16:38:05 (I seem to recall that Debian disables that one by default anyway.) 16:39:29 Yes, apparently. 16:39:36 It's even greyed out. 16:39:43 "Data reporting is disabled for this build configuration" 16:42:20 Looks like my Firefox installation (which I don't really use) actually has one extension that's been deactivated due to "not meet[ing] current Firefox standards", which might even be from that bug. 16:43:05 (It's the "xul-ext-mozvoikko" package that contains a Finnish spell-checker, no idea why I've got that installed.) 16:53:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:54:33 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:57:21 as for firefox, (1) a few months ago the firefox on my windows work machine reverted to using hungarian messages in the UI, despite that I've switched it to english previously. apparently it listens to the _other_ about:config variable that tells the UI language since an update. 16:57:53 and (2) when I complained about something not working in the online banking, phone support just told me the generic response that I should try to use chrome as the browser 17:07:43 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:11:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:13:02 Heh, that reminds me -- I tried out LANGUAGE=en_GB:en:fi as a misguided attempt to say "speak English, but fall back to Finnish if available and English isn't". But of course most programs don't explicitly have message files for English (it's just the untranslated messages are in English), so the end result was everything started to speak Finnish. 17:13:34 So I undid that, but I had installed a kernel update in the meanwhile, and that involves updating grub, so the boot menu was in Finnish all the way until the next update. 17:13:40 fizzie: isn't it that most programs don't even care about the LANGUAGE var, and use only the LC_MESSAGE locale? 17:13:57 Anything using gettext will care about LANGUAGE. 17:14:50 https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/html_node/The-LANGUAGE-variable.html 17:14:56 Can you specify a "i-default" language? 17:15:26 "Not all programs have translations for all languages. By default, an English message is shown in place of a nonexistent translation. If you understand other languages, you can set up a priority list of languages. This is done through a different environment variable, called LANGUAGE. GNU gettext gives preference to LANGUAGE over LC_ALL and LANG for the purpose of message handling, but you still need to 17:15:32 have LANG (or LC_ALL) set to the primary language; this is required by other parts of the system libraries. For example, some Swedish users who would rather read translations in German than English for when Swedish is not available, set LANGUAGE to ‘sv:de’ while leaving LANG to ‘sv_SE’." 17:15:57 . o O ( am I alone in only setting LC_CTYPE and nothing else in the `locale` area? ) 17:16:27 int-e: I don't think that's too weird, I think I might have done that too? 17:16:49 fizzie: it's an honest question, I'm wondering. 17:17:19 I think now I do LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LANGUAGE=en_GB:en_US:en, and I don't know if that latter one really makes any difference anywhere. 17:18:02 IIRC I did something like that (only en_US probably) and didn't like the collation. 17:18:16 int-e: you're not. I did that, and glibc used to have a bug that that caused 17:18:54 int-e: technically it would be better to set LC_CTYPE, LC_MEASUREMENT, and LC_PAPER, but very few programs care about those locales 17:19:00 I just have LANG=C on my computer, and do not have the other stuff set 17:19:05 `` env | egrep 'LANG|LC' 17:19:06 LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` env | egrep 'LANG|LC' 17:19:23 `` locale # does it have this? 17:19:24 LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL= 17:19:49 though I guess that's misleading because it propagates LANG everywhere else 17:20:05 I don't know if it's intentional or not, but I think you can tell the fallbacky ones because they have quotes. 17:20:13 `` env LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 locale 17:20:15 LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ALL= 17:20:20 See, the quotes disappeared. 17:20:30 int-e: yes, LANG sets the default locale, and you can override separate facets with the individual LC_* variables 17:21:00 ``` locale 17:21:01 LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL= 17:21:21 fizzie: you're good: "Values for variables set in the environment are printed without double quotes, implied values are printed with double quotes." 17:21:53 Can you set some of them for stuff other than a language? Such as, for paper and telephone and so on you might want some format other than the specification of a language; will that work? 17:21:53 ``` export LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8 LC_MEASUREMENT=hu_HU.utf8 LC_PAPER=hu_HU.utf8; locale # I think we don't have that locale installed here 17:21:54 bash: warning: setlocale: LC_CTYPE: cannot change locale (hu_HU.utf8): No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE=hu_HU.utf8 \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER=hu_HU.utf8 \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMEN 17:22:18 (And also with date/time; you might want to specify your own date/time format, too) 17:22:39 zzo38: I think there are effectively only two different values for paper and measurement, so there's not much point complicating it 17:22:53 I don't much care about the TELEPHONE part 17:23:28 b_jonas: For measurement I suppose, but for paper isn't there many different paper sizes? 17:24:24 zzo38: only two _default_ paper sizes I believe, letter and A4 17:24:32 you can print on other sizes of paper, but those aren't the default 17:24:40 you just set them per printing job explicitly 17:24:44 I have en_GB.UTF-8, en_US.UTF-8 and en_NZ.UTF-8 uncommented in /etc/locale.gen on the HackEso system. 17:24:51 The last just because of the bot. 17:25:00 b_jonas: O, OK. 17:25:15 there could be more, maybe I just don't know them 17:25:54 similarly for LC_MEASUREMENT, you can tell programs to write distances in french leagues, it's just not the default from any french locale probably 18:27:17 programs should know what languages their fallbacks are in :-( 18:27:25 really, the fallback should be in C 18:28:49 Yes, if it uses languages at all, then it ought to know 18:42:14 LC_TELEPHONE seems almost unusable to me; the only plausible use case is to correctly format phone numbers given as user input, when the user doesn't format them clearly 18:43:03 (e.g. in the UK, you'd want to format 03001235000 as (0300) 123 5000; however, this is a very hard transformation to do automatically because the rules would depend on a prefix database) 18:45:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:45:57 ais523: I think that's for the modem dialer to know how to format international numbers on a fixed phone line, since those don't accept a plus 18:46:21 s/fixed/landline/ 18:47:00 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:48:00 What even is there to query the LC_TELEPHONE? 18:48:17 `` locale -k LC_TELEPHONE 18:48:18 tel_int_fmt="+%c %a %l" \ tel_dom_fmt="" \ int_select="" \ int_prefix="64" \ telephone-codeset="UTF-8" 18:48:26 Yes that would be helpful, but you should allow to define in the system configuration file what prefix to use; the driver can convert + to the proper prefix 18:48:56 fizzie: So, kinda, but what it tells you is pretty useless. 18:49:03 `` env LC_TELEPHONE=en_GB.UTF-8 locale -k LC_TELEPHONE 18:49:03 tel_int_fmt="+%c %a %l" \ tel_dom_fmt="%A %l" \ int_select="00" \ int_prefix="44" \ telephone-codeset="UTF-8" 18:49:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 18:49:55 How do you define the details of the locale anyways? You should need some file to do so, I think. 18:50:33 I think it's somewhat spread out. 18:50:44 But here those LC_TELEPHONE values come from /usr/share/i18n/locales/en_GB. 18:51:38 zzo38: you can't, it's gnu libc magic 18:53:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:53:11 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 18:53:37 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: system upgrade). 18:54:05 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:54:15 I found those locale files, but can you put any locales in your home directory in case you want to use one that the system administrator has not defined? 18:54:25 I don't think so. 18:55:01 I think it can only use the compiled-together binary things as well? Haven't really explored though. 18:55:31 (Which on this system is /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive.) 18:55:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:56:52 Although maybe there's some way to override the default path, in which case you could compile your own thing. 18:57:05 If it can only use the compiled files is OK, but you should be allowed to substitute your own file if you do not want to use the existing one. Furthermore, the C locale should not require any kind of file like that. 18:58:13 Yes, apparently there's a LOCPATH environment variable. 18:58:25 "The user can use custom locales by compiling them with localedef(1) and loading them from a directory pointed by LOCPATH; see the GNU C Library online manual at Locale Names, the locale(1) manual page, and the Testing Locales section below for details and examples." 18:58:31 Fair enough. 18:59:04 OK 19:07:32 -!- xkapastel has joined. 19:12:19 -!- Hoolootwo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:15:17 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 19:16:35 right, that's like the TERMINFO_DIRS env-var that I used to use to install urxvt terminfo under my home directory on old systems that didn't come with one 19:16:51 but if you want to use a custom terminfo or locale in a setuid program, you're out of lock 19:16:54 out of luck 19:17:33 fizzie: IIRC a custom locale is how we got false(1) to segfault, last time the "make false return true" discussion came up 19:18:01 it's not quite as good as making it return true, but it's a step on the way 19:22:23 heh. 19:23:00 making true return false is, of course, easy 19:23:20 The docs mentioned that setuid binaries ignore LOCPATH, which is probably good. 19:23:58 that seems like the sort of thing that setuid binaries need to ignore 19:25:16 the good old times when we did stuff like that, 19:25:51 as in that rules abuse in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=376362 where one task is to make something raise an exception, so I set up a debug single step callback, and raise an exception from inside 19:26:15 why is making true return false easy? 19:26:34 does it have to be /bin/true ? 19:27:16 b_jonas: yes, /bin/true 19:27:35 `` /bin/true > /dev/full; echo $? 19:27:35 0 19:27:44 `` /bin/true --help > /dev/full; echo $? 19:27:45 ​/bin/true: write error: No space left on device \ 1 19:27:48 there we go 19:28:29 yeah, ideally we just shouldn't use setuid binaries, so that things that have to run as root or something don't inherit any funny process state, but instead run as a demon or are spawned by a demon and other user's processes call into them without execve, but as long as setuid programs can exist, they need those restrictions 19:28:38 ah wow 19:28:40 let me test 19:28:55 indeed 19:28:58 that returns false 19:29:17 I didn't know about that 19:29:25 the reverse is much harder because /bin/false reports an error even if you successfully --help or --version it 19:29:29 `` /bin/true --help 19:29:29 Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation \ for details about the options it supports. \ \ GNU coreutils online help: < 19:29:44 I did know that /bin/true --help prints help message but returns true, and /bin/false --help prints help message but returns false 19:29:47 I was curious about what the help for /bin/true could possibly say :-D 19:29:52 there's not much to talk about 19:30:03 * APic just learned about /dev/full 19:30:06 Interesting 19:30:07 ais523: in gnu coreutils, the help message says where to report localization bugs 19:30:11 which is strang 19:30:14 /dev/full is a very useful tool for testing 19:30:51 *nod* 19:31:22 it's handy, but it's not really essential. there are other ways to get unwritable file handles. 19:31:23 because write errors are very rare in practice but it's a trivial way to cause a genuine write error 19:31:38 it's a convenience device like /dev/zero 19:32:01 b_jonas: closed-file-handle is the other easy thing to simulate but it often causes a much more complicated error due to things like fopen opening over it 19:32:11 `` /bin/true 1&>- 19:32:14 No output. 19:32:15 `` /bin/true --help 1&>- 19:32:16 No output. 19:32:22 `` /bin/true --help 1&>-; echo $? 19:32:23 0 19:32:33 `` /bin/true --help 1>&-; echo $? 19:32:34 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ 1 19:32:36 there we go 19:33:05 ais523: no no, don't use a closed filehandle 19:33:28 broken pipe, perhaps? 19:33:42 ais523: I was thinking more of either a AF_LOCAL socket that's been shutdown, or a type of file handle where write isn't valid, such as an open directory 19:33:55 or an epoll filehandle or whatever 19:34:07 it's not easy to open those in pure bash 19:34:27 `` mkfifo f; true < f & (sleep 1; /bin/true --help; echo $? 1>&2) > f 19:34:29 141 19:34:53 hmm, so /bin/true doesn't catch SIGPIPE 19:35:47 heck, or even a regular file open for read only 19:35:57 /dev/full is more useful when you need a filename 19:37:05 `` /bin/true 1 exit=0, 19:37:12 `` /bin/true --help 1 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1, 19:37:18 that latter 19:38:07 ``` perl -we 'sysopen STDOUT,"/",0x10000 or die; exec "/bin/true","--help"'; echo exit=$?, 19:38:08 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1, 19:38:19 heck, you don't even need the flag 19:38:23 ``` perl -we 'sysopen STDOUT,"/",0 or die; exec "/bin/true","--help"'; echo exit=$?, 19:38:24 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1, 19:38:49 `` /bin/true --help 1 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1, 19:38:53 even easier 19:39:03 you're right 19:39:24 although this might be a bug in /bin/true , it should probably still give exit code 0 if it can't print the help message 19:40:03 but I rarely use /bin/true, because in shell scripts the shell builtin is easier, and it doesn't try to write anything 19:40:50 "1 apparently 19:41:43 you'd need an explicit check to not allow it, like explicitly fstat the file to check if it's a directory or something 19:41:59 because open without O_WRITE will open directories just fine 19:42:30 it needs to, because that's how opendir+readdir is implemented under the hood, with open and getdents, and for all the *at functions like openat too 19:55:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:02:07 `` /bin/true --help 1<&2; echo exit=$? 20:02:08 Usage: /bin/true [ignored command line arguments] \ or: /bin/true OPTION \ Exit with a status code indicating success. \ \ --help display this help and exit \ --version output version information and exit \ \ NOTE: your shell may have its own version of true, which usually supersedes \ the version described here. Please refer to your shell's documentation \ for details about the options it supports. \ \ GNU coreutils online help: < 20:02:23 OK, so you can write to stdout even if it was opened only for reading 20:03:04 ais523: no 20:03:24 ais523: it's just that by default the terminal device is opened for read-write, and that same one file description is duped to stdin, stdout, stderr 20:03:48 oh right, dup doesn't mess with permissions 20:03:53 check with fcntl if you want 20:03:59 `` /bin/true --help 1 ​/bin/true: write error: Bad file descriptor \ exit=1 20:05:48 ``` perl -we 'use Fcntl; printf "fl=%04X,\n", fcntl(STDIN, F_GETFL(), 0);' 20:05:49 fl=8000, 20:06:15 ^ if the low two bits are 2, that means the file is open for read-write, which is what you'll normally see in a program in a terminal 20:06:33 but in that case the low two bits aren't 2 20:06:43 yes, because that's HackEso, not a termianl 20:06:55 it doesn't have anything to read things from 20:07:50 b_jonas: re your Perl problems: the official solution to one of them was to override the permissions on undef to make it read/write and assign to it, I'm surprised that didn't end up breaking something more important 20:08:38 ais523: it could end up breaking things, but these are standalone esoteric exercises, not good practices to use in a production program 20:09:04 6 is perfectly fine to do in production IMO 20:09:22 ais523: some could be as a special case 20:09:34 hmm… in pure Perl, is there any way to place arrays as array elements? 20:09:36 I know you can do that via XS 20:09:59 Perl's internals don't have any rule that array elements must be scalars (ditto for hash values), that's just a rule of the language itself 20:10:00 I don't know 20:10:15 note that these can depend on perl 5.8 20:11:38 `` --perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \$a[0]' 20:11:39 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: --perl: command not found 20:11:42 `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \$a[0]' 20:11:43 REF 20:12:07 `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref \ ($a[0])' 20:12:08 REF 20:12:47 hmm, I was expecting SCALAR, am I missing a level of indirection somewhere? 20:12:52 `` perl -e '@a=([1]); print ref ($a[0])' 20:12:52 ARRAY 20:13:05 I guess REF is more specific than SCALAR 20:13:19 (and technically you'd have to bit_and the file status flags with 0x01000003 to get the mode, and the possible modes are 0 for read only, 1 for write only, 2 for read-write, 3 for something Linux-specific, 0x10000000 for something else Linux-specific, except possibly on Hurd which uses different numeric values for O_READ and O_WRITE and O_RDWR just to be incompatible with everything) 20:13:22 but it's weird to see references being displayed with a different type from other scalars 20:14:43 ais523: ref can returns REF and a few other fancy things that still mean scalar 20:15:50 it might be best to just check for undef, ARRAH, HASH, IO, FORMAT, and interpret anything else to mean it's a scalar reference; 20:16:11 and call Scalar::Util::reftype instead of ref to handle blessed stuff 20:16:37 but even then these functions are crazy 20:16:53 ``` perl -e warn ref(qr/foo) # it's not a reference, so why does ref return true? 20:16:54 bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `perl -e warn ref(qr/foo) # it's not a reference, so why does ref return true?' 20:17:01 `perl -e warn ref(qr/foo/) 20:17:03 Regexp at -e line 1. 20:17:17 `perl -e warn use Scalar::Util; Scalar::Util::reftype(qr/foo/) 20:17:18 ​"use" not allowed in expression at -e line 1, near "warn " \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "warn use Scalar::Util" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. 20:17:25 `perl -e use Scalar::Util; warn Scalar::Util::reftype(qr/foo/) 20:17:26 REGEXP at -e line 1. 20:17:45 perl is a crazy alnguage 20:19:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:21:08 -!- irc_bird has joined. 20:21:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:22:04 -!- irc_bird has quit (Client Quit). 20:24:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:25:45 `perl -wuse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\substr($x,0,0)) 20:25:46 String found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "Scalar::Util "reftype"" \ (Do you need to predeclare Scalar::Util?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "Scalar::Util "reftype"" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors. 20:25:52 `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\substr($x,0,0)) 20:25:53 LVALUE at -e line 1. 20:26:00 `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(\vec($x,0,1)) 20:26:01 LVALUE at -e line 1. 20:28:22 `perl -euse Scalar::Util "reftype"; warn reftype(qr/foo/) 20:28:23 REGEXP at -e line 1. 20:29:01 but then, perl has all sorts of user-defined magical scalars, so a scalar can behave in almost any way 20:29:21 you can't really write a program that behaves properly for any input if you can't trust what scalars go into the input 20:45:01 there's probably a library to check whether a scalar is magical or not 20:45:18 there are only so many things you can do magic-wise to a scalar; there are a lot, but it's a finite number and it's enumerated within the Perl header files 20:46:35 How does that work? 20:47:47 Perl scalars are basically just a data structure with a large number of fields indicating all the possible special behaviours they could have 20:48:28 Perl programmers use the term "magic" for data that acts very unusually compared to most data, but all possible forms of magic have to be encoded in the scalar's data structure somehow 20:49:49 ais523: yes, with B for example 20:51:02 What kind of special behaviours are possible? 20:51:02 `perl -e use Devel::Peek; $x="foo"; Dump($x) # not too magical 20:51:03 SV = PV(0x552ae9bb20) at 0x552aeb8a60 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (POK,IsCOW,pPOK) \ PV = 0x552aebd960 "foo"\0 \ CUR = 3 \ LEN = 10 \ COW_REFCNT = 1 20:51:12 `perl -e use Devel::Peek; $x=qr"foo"; Dump($x) # quite magical 20:51:13 SV = IV(0x552aeb8a50) at 0x552aeb8a60 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (ROK) \ RV = 0x552aeb8268 \ SV = REGEXP(0x552aecd7e8) at 0x552aeb8268 \ REFCNT = 1 \ FLAGS = (OBJECT,FAKE) \ PV = 0x552aedc140 "(?^:foo)" \ CUR = 8 \ STASH = 0x552aeb8010"Regexp" \ COMPFLAGS = 0x0 () \ EXTFLAGS = 0x680000 (CHECK_ALL,USE_INTUIT_NOML,USE_INTUIT_ML) \ ENGINE = 0x552ae94560 (STANDARD) \ INTFLAGS = 0x0 () \ NPARENS = 0 \ LASTPAREN 20:51:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 20:51:24 you can use the B module to traverse the internal structures and read every bit 20:51:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:51:41 heck, you can probably use B for what ais523 asked, putting an array value into an array element 20:52:11 or maybe not, if it only has read-only functions 21:02:50 Do magic behaviours mean including such a thing similar to the "number and string" type in AWK? 21:04:58 zzo38: no, a perl scalar can be both a number and a string without being magical 21:05:14 magic can do more tricky stuff, like catch every read of the scalar 21:05:23 (also every write) 21:07:05 O, OK. 21:07:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:08:06 (In JavaScript properties can have a function to catch reading them, but variables don't.) 21:17:39 What if you had a high-level language, with high-level features, besides automatic memory management? 21:18:05 What kind of high-level features? 21:18:49 First-class functions, delimited and regular continuations, etc. 21:20:00 ah, here we go... firefox has disabled my addons as well, it was just delayed. 21:20:24 Basically, a programming language with a lot of abstraction, except for one specific thing that stands out like a sore thumb. 21:21:30 but xpinstall.signatures.required exists so they're back now :P 21:23:42 `forget security key 21:23:43 rm: cannot remove 'wisdom/security key': No such file or directory 21:24:31 who was it who asked about identifying processes on linux without race conditions from 15-bit pids being reused? because apparently the linux devs are now working on that, though they're not done yet 21:25:28 I think I did 21:26:00 found it 21:26:03 it was izabera 21:26:13 no 21:26:15 it was you zzo38 21:26:19 https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-11-28.html#lv 21:26:34 zzo38: https://lwn.net/Articles/784831/ 21:27:25 Yes, I remember I mentioned it. I thought of idea to perhaps use a file descriptor and then anything that can use a process ID number can also use the sum of the file descriptor with a constant that is larger than all valid process IDs but can fit in the variable without overflow. 21:27:32 `unidecode ، 21:27:32 ​[U+060C ARABIC COMMA] [U+0020 SPACE] 21:28:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:13 That idea is pidfd like what I mentioned, although then you will need to add pidfd_send_signal() and so on; my suggestion does not require that you make up new system calls like that 21:29:16 pids are not limited to 15 bits 21:29:21 i think it's 22? 21:29:43 izabera: they're not strictly limited, that's just the default limit 21:29:55 yeah and the limit is 2^22-1 21:30:29 i'm in so much pain and i can't think straight 21:31:20 Still 22 bits is less than the 31 bits that a positive number in a signed 32-bit variable can have, so, what I mentioned can work. 21:31:49 there's a really easy way to solve this problem entirely 21:32:01 make pids 64bits, incremental and never reused 21:33:28 pids are scow 21:33:35 izabera: that's not so simple, because there are lots of system calls and user library calls that store pids in 32-bit values 21:33:40 and they can break 21:33:50 let them break 21:33:58 b_jonas: Yes, that is why you have to do what I mentioned instead. 21:34:22 Define the constant in some C header file. 21:40:00 For example: #define PIDFD_OFFSET (1<<30) 21:41:13 So then you can do my suggestion without needing to add any new system calls at all. 21:46:09 zzo38: I don't really like that idea. it seems prone to bugs. 21:47:18 What bugs? 21:48:06 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 21:49:24 I'm not sure, I can't give a good argument, sorry 21:51:18 -!- sprocklem has joined. 21:51:25 However, one thing I also consider is that PIDFD_OFFSET-1 also should be not valid; that is why it must be higher than (1<<22) 21:57:09 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Falsaidi * New user account 22:10:16 -!- tromp has joined. 22:12:02 I like Schleckmercenary's take on the Fermi paradox. 22:14:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:21:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 22:30:59 oh? 22:40:24 Why is Scratchapixel 2.0 apparently missing chapters? 22:49:49 -!- MDude has joined. 23:03:45 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61708&oldid=61696 * Salpynx * (-34) Tidy one section for clarity and neater contents. 23:04:53 -!- tromp has joined. 23:09:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:11:42 -!- Melvar has joined. 23:15:10 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 23:15:17 How useful is the EXCLUDE clause in SQL? It does not seem so useful to me. Allowing to specify numbers PRECEDING and FOLLOWING for a RANGE frame type look like useful, though. 23:50:51 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:59:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 2019-05-05: 00:02:13 oh nice! 00:02:27 finallyi 00:03:12 the rust standard library now documentedly defines std::cell::UnsafeCell and std::cell::Cell with the #[repr(transparent)] attribute 00:04:20 plus also std::mem::ManuallyDrop too 00:07:14 One problem with the game Rogue is that if there are objects on the ground and you can't carry it, it will not tell you what it is that you are unable to pick up. 00:09:59 but rogue doesn't have corpses, does it? how do you get objects that you can't carry? 00:10:22 In case you are already carrying too many items 00:16:32 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:22:19 `? nuff 00:22:20 Nuff is a substance extracted from fairies. Somehow no one really minds this. 00:22:56 i'd forgotten about that. 00:24:11 @seen hppavilion[1] 00:24:12 hPpa\/iLI0N[1] 00:24:16 um 00:24:39 @help seen 00:24:39 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 00:24:47 @help @seen 00:24:48 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 00:24:57 how do I tell what the spelling correction corrects it to? 00:27:21 In general or in this specific case? 00:27:41 @sean 00:27:42 Maybe you meant: slap learn keal 00:27:47 @leet foo 00:27:47 fOo 00:27:51 hm that did not work 00:28:16 shachaf: both 00:28:17 I located @leet by just doing @listmodules and a @list on any likely subjects. 00:28:32 shachaf: also where has hppavilion disappeared? 00:28:39 In this particular case it's @leet, which I already knew. 00:28:55 But I was being stubborn about the way you phrased your question or something and unhelpful for that reason. 00:29:12 So I made fizzie do unnecessary work. 00:29:14 he's the other regular besides boily who's disappeared recently 00:30:32 @leet Do you wish to make the mountains bare their head 00:30:32 dO joo \/\/I5H 7o MAk3 TH3 mOun+4iNz B4r3 +h3iR |-|eaD 00:30:45 @aeet 00:30:45 Say again? 00:30:50 @aeen 00:30:50 Say again? 00:30:58 @aeen Hm 00:30:58 h/\/\ 00:31:25 @saen Hm 00:31:26 Unknown command, try @list 00:31:40 @seea Hm 00:31:40 Maybe you meant: vera leet 00:31:43 there 00:32:52 there might be some command that's got just the wrong levenshtein neighbors to find it by such small adjustments... 00:32:52 @help leet 00:32:53 elite . Translate English to elitespeak 00:33:18 @help elite 00:33:18 elite . Translate English to elitespeak 00:33:46 @elite elite 00:33:46 31It3 00:36:39 The only call to levenshteinDistance is in closests, and the only call to closests is right there in doMsg where it gets triggered directly if there's just one match. So I don't think there's a straightforward way to ask what it got mapped to. 00:36:50 I see 00:37:31 in buubot, a call to a function macro can take the first one word or first two word as function name, and I'm not sure how to query which one it does 00:37:44 at least there you can just query the source of both of those possibilities 00:38:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:42:39 fizzie: Are you able to fix the program? 00:42:45 (or is that someone else's job?) 00:51:58 @run id "foo" 00:52:00 "foo" 00:52:08 I don't think it's anyone's actual job. But probably it's closer to being someone else's job. 00:52:21 I was just reading https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-core/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Core/Base.hs#L230 00:53:15 -!- tromp has joined. 00:53:27 OK, but who set up that instance? 00:56:48 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 00:58:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:01:04 b_jonas: @seen has been disabled for ages now, because it leaks memory somehow... possibly it's not even technically a leak but just the fact that there are too many users being tracked. 01:02:43 int-e: I see 01:04:34 zzo38: I'm running the thing, I do occasional maintenance but usually I don't go beyond fixing broken things... 01:06:31 int-e: I think spell is broken too, by the way. 01:06:33 @spell something 01:06:34 Plugin `spell' failed with: aspell: readCreateProcessWithExitCode: runInteractiveProcess: exec: does not exist (No such file or directory) 01:07:14 (I'm not even sure what it should do, just came across it when listing things.) 01:07:52 Hmm that looks simple enough... 01:08:02 @spell somethingg 01:08:02 something somethings something's 01:08:09 Oh, so that's what it does. 01:08:25 @all-dicts 01:08:25 all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org 01:08:32 mm 01:10:05 wtf: nazi True = lift on >> say "Spelling nazi engaged." 01:12:26 @vera radar 01:12:27 No match for "radar". 01:17:32 @run replicate "foo" 4 01:17:37 error: 01:17:39 • Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘[Char]’ 01:17:41 • In the first argument of ‘replicate’, namely ‘"foo"’ 01:17:44 @run replicate 4 "foo" 01:17:46 ["foo","foo","foo","foo"] 01:17:47 @ru replicate 4 "foo" 01:17:49 ["foo","foo","foo","foo"] 01:17:50 @r replicate 4 "foo" 01:17:50 Maybe you meant: rc reconnect remember repoint roll run v @ ? . 01:17:56 @u replicate 4 "foo" 01:17:57 Maybe you meant: undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless unshift-topic uptime url v @ ? . 01:18:00 @n replicate 4 "foo" 01:18:00 Maybe you meant: nazi-off nazi-on nixon wn v @ ? . 01:18:02 ... 01:18:16 @list 01:18:16 What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. 01:18:18 b_jonas: use privmsg 01:23:07 @thank 01:23:07 Maybe you meant: thank you thanks 01:23:11 @help thank 01:23:12 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 01:23:20 @list dummy 01:23:20 dummy provides: eval choose dummy bug id show wiki paste docs learn haskellers botsnack get-shapr shootout faq googleit hackage thanks thx thank you ping tic-tac-toe 01:26:30 at least half of these are memorials of a sillier time on #haskell. 01:27:01 `thank lambdabot 01:27:02 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thank: not found 01:27:06 `thanks lambdabot 01:27:06 Thanks, lambdabot. Thambdabot. 01:27:09 hmm 01:28:27 ^thanks lambdabot 01:28:27 Thanks, lambdabot. Thambdabot. 01:28:38 (I just like to verify that every now and then.) 01:28:54 @list quote 01:28:55 quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s pinky brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber 01:29:00 `quote 01:29:01 799) 499) What is miff-muffered moof? that's a tough question [...] miff-muffered moof sounds like a setup to something, but itidus screws it up. 01:31:07 ^thanks t0st 01:31:07 Thanks, t0st. T0st. 01:31:16 `thanks t0st 01:31:17 Thanks, t0st. Th0st. 01:31:47 shocking 01:31:56 Thocking? 01:33:28 ^thanks firefox 01:33:28 Thanks, firefox. Thirefox. 01:34:30 `thanks mozilla 01:34:31 Thanks, mozilla. Thozilla. 01:40:18 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:50:14 `unideco 5⁄2 01:50:15 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unideco: not found 01:50:19 `unidecode 5⁄2 01:50:20 ​[U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+2044 FRACTION SLASH] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] 02:41:11 -!- tromp has joined. 02:46:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:25:36 Are you able to tell them about my ideas about pidfd? They would still have CLONE_PIDFD too I forgot to mention, but even with what I mentioned you should have that too 03:25:39 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61709&oldid=61626 * Falsaidi * (+342) Added my own introduction 04:21:32 -!- Lykaina has joined. 04:48:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:05:11 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:16:53 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:26:59 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:32:38 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:33:26 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:53:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:56:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:57:41 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:58:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:05:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:42:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:54:33 -!- tromp has joined. 08:09:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:16:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:38:08 -!- tromp has joined. 08:46:54 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61710&oldid=61701 * A * (+61) Fix style and add a golfing tutorial 08:49:38 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61711&oldid=58350 * JonoCode9374 * (+264) Fixed a bit of spelling 08:50:42 [[(PTM)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61712&oldid=52664 * RealUndefined * (+12) improve format 08:51:29 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61713&oldid=61710 * JonoCode9374 * (-8) /* External Resources / Reference Implementation */ The interpreter isn't much of a WIP as i thought it was. 08:54:51 [[Keg/Golfing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61714 * A * (+695) Created page with "This page tries to teach the reader how to golf programs in [[Keg]]. The official tutorial did not even mention golfing techniques. == Problem #1. Golf the [[Hello, World!]] p..." 09:05:17 [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61715&oldid=61714 * A * (+1591) 09:07:48 [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61716&oldid=61715 * A * (+151) /* Tips that don't seem to fit anywhere */ 09:12:44 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61717&oldid=61713 * A * (+61) Add links 09:14:56 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61718&oldid=61716 * A * (+167) /* Tips that don't seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ 09:19:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:25:16 Hi :-) 09:25:23 -!- tromp has joined. 09:27:01 Has anyone played this C++Robots programming game? I'm looking for any robot code (or koth standings) http://www.gamerz.net/c++robots/ 09:37:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:05:12 -!- tromp has joined. 10:09:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:58:05 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61719&oldid=61718 * JonoCode9374 * (+16) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ just added a little extra detail 11:53:28 -!- tromp has joined. 11:55:45 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:56:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:57:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:58:48 free association: "Golf the Deadfish" -- "Sushi the Goldfish" 12:19:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:26:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 12:27:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:30:48 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61720&oldid=61719 * A * (+108) Small detail 12:36:17 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61721&oldid=61720 * A * (-1) grm 12:37:27 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61722&oldid=61721 * A * (-7) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 12:38:42 -!- b_jonas has joined. 12:38:50 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61723&oldid=61722 * A * (+10) Found another grm, and make the except look like normal talking 12:44:33 -!- Lykaina has left. 12:47:27 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61724&oldid=61723 * A * (+17) Fix the article that I made in a hurry 12:54:25 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61725&oldid=61724 * A * (+22) *sigh* 13:10:44 [[Talk:Keg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61726 * A * (+411) Write an incomplete message. TODO 13:16:12 [[Talk:Keg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61727&oldid=61726 * A * (+659) End my talk 13:16:59 [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61728&oldid=61727 * A * (+67) 13:18:04 [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61729&oldid=61728 * A * (-117) simplify my talk 13:34:34 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:41:32 -!- tromp has joined. 13:42:40 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61730&oldid=61711 * A * (+136) Post an answer (you can undo it if you dislike it.) 13:45:30 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61731&oldid=61730 * A * (+39) 13:46:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:55:34 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61732&oldid=61731 * A * (-175) Undo all of my edits 13:58:24 [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61733&oldid=61729 * A * (+4) 14:03:02 [[Talk:Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61734&oldid=61733 * A * (-1024) It does not matter, though. Iteration is enough. 14:36:13 -!- tromp has joined. 14:40:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:58:33 good morning all 15:02:19 [[History (programming language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61735&oldid=61706 * A * (-212) Simplify the commands 15:04:21 are there any esoteric DSP languages? 15:05:29 or esoteric frameworks for (possibly simulated) analog computing? 15:08:48 programming languages where the source code is an audio file? music? where you can take the FFT of your program to get another program? 15:09:52 Depending on where you draw the line, I think the answer is yes to a couple of those 15:10:54 ais's Checkout, Codegolf SE's Marbelous come to mind 15:15:36 fourier transforms are too good 15:16:05 "Are you saying I can convert between time and frequency domain?" "No, Neo. I'm saying that when you're ready, you won't have to." 15:16:17 Music as syntax does happen, but not generally encoded as audio -- https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fugue comes to mind. 15:17:30 Bitoven and Musical-X are in the same general area. 15:17:44 And Velato. 15:17:50 it would be cool if there were a language where you could play a program on an actual musical instrument, record it, and then execute it 15:18:00 (not counting stuff like MIDI keyboards) 15:18:14 I saw a guy playing a MIDI clarinet once. it was pretty cool 15:18:23 instead of a reed it has a breath sensor 15:18:56 my father in law has a huge MIDI pipe organ controller with 3 ranks of keys, a set of pedals, and stops 15:19:05 it is pretty much the centeripiece of their apartment 15:19:53 it's connected to some absurdly powerful computer, like a top of the line Core i7 with 128 GB of RAM, which runs Hauptwerk which is an extremely accurate pipe organ simulator 15:21:04 Heh. Is it a physics-based simulator or what? 15:22:54 I think some of my university coworkers were doing / had done work on simulating the physics of string instruments. 15:36:13 Today's example of context-unaware bad word filtering: "cons**cuous" & "sus**cuous". 15:38:05 scunthorpe 15:38:44 fizzie: I don't get it. 15:39:58 (except maybe that it won't catch "suspicious") 15:42:02 int-e: "spic" it's a bad word. And they used one of those filters that cares not of word boundaries. 15:42:53 lol scunthorpe 15:43:04 (Like the clbuttic "buttbuttinate" example. Except this one adds stars.) 15:44:14 fizzie: I still don't understand why Hungary can have settlements called Csabaszabadi, Rábaszentandrás, Rábaszentmihály, and Rábaszentmiklós 15:48:44 fizzie: oh. makes sense. 15:48:46 (Also it was "sus**cious", I just messed that one up.) 15:52:45 ah ok 15:56:36 -!- _zM has joined. 15:57:14 . o O ( ѕuѕрісіоuѕ ) 15:58:17 <_zM> I created a BytePusher peogram that generates the Mandelbrot set: https://gitlab.com/0-zM/mandelbrot-bytepusher 15:58:47 `unidecode ѕ 15:58:48 ​[U+0455 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DZE] 15:58:52 I didn't know of that one. 16:02:20 hah apparently that particular substitution has made it into various spam mails; google reports 1460 hits. 16:03:35 (for "ѕuѕрісіоuѕ") 16:18:29 -!- _zM has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:24:28 -!- tromp has joined. 16:28:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:34:15 fizzie: does it replace "spice" too? 17:18:43 -!- tromp has joined. 17:23:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:29:40 Are there lists of NNTP server software with comparisons? 17:30:54 There are many different ones, written in different programming languages, with different licenses, and with different capabilities. Some use SQLite or other SQL databases, and some do not use SQL. Some connect to other servers too and some don't. Some also interact with web forums or mailing lists. 17:42:33 -!- gerzytet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:57:39 -!- imode has joined. 18:47:50 -!- tromp has joined. 18:51:56 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 18:52:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:54:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:54:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 19:08:33 -!- rdococ has changed nick to spacekitten. 19:10:39 -!- spacekitten has changed nick to rdococ. 19:21:08 -!- tromp has joined. 19:33:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:49:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:50:30 Do you know if any NNTP server has a command to search for articles with a specified value in the "References" header? 20:07:45 (This would be useful if you want to find replies to a message, since all replies to a single message have the same value for the References header.) 20:09:43 -!- tromp has joined. 20:11:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:12:13 -!- tromp has joined. 20:45:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:45:51 kmc: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Analogia is basically an esolang that's a specification of how analog computers work 20:46:17 I'm not sure whether it's TC, I keep making mistakes trying to prove it TC because the set of things it can and can't do is so different from normal 20:46:38 as for the DSP side of things, C-INTERCAL can run on (some) microcontrollers, so you could probably adapt it to DSPs fairly easily 20:46:47 nice 20:46:59 I mean more like a language that has DSP type of stuff as primitives 20:47:00 oh, I should check if the CLC-intercal homepage is up 20:47:06 and is designed around making, like, filter pipelines 20:47:14 as mentioned, Fugue uses a MIDI file as source code, but it's still command-based 20:47:24 nope 20:47:27 probably lost forever 20:48:25 kmc: well, the fast fourier transform is pretty much the only DSP primitive that isn't found on more normal processors too 20:48:35 most of what you do are addition, multiplication, FFT 20:48:56 did you implement Analogia? 20:49:40 I suspect that, while computation on reals is Turing-uncomputable in general, that given sufficient continuity constraints on the equations, it becomes r.e. 20:49:43 no, and I'm not even sure it's computable 20:50:01 I think it probably is computuable, but guesses as to computational class are quite different from proofs 20:50:21 ais523: possibly stupid question: y = ∫y+y ∂x ... shouldn't the integrand be x+x? 20:50:25 ais523: have you figured out anything new about that letter permutation problem? 20:50:31 also you could just implement it numerically and accept that some pathological programs will not run properly 20:50:38 and may not run properly on an analog computer 20:50:45 int-e: they're both legal 20:50:50 but have different meanings 20:50:56 certainly you can make chaotic things using op amps that will produce wildly different results when disturbed by noise 20:51:08 there are some cool ones here, http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html 20:51:21 ais523: I'm wondering how you got x^2 out of that. 20:51:30 go to Circuits -> Op amp -> Chaotic circuits 20:51:44 kmc: real-life analog computers aren't TC because the integrators will quickly hit implementation limits if you try to use them to store bignums, and the only possible other place you could store arbitrary data is in using arbitrarily high accuracy for the fractional component of values 20:51:44 you have to be able to make chaotic things if it's Turing-complete 20:52:14 int-e: oh, I see 20:52:39 anyway, you can't expect real-life analog computers to be able to handle arbitrarily many decimal places of accuracy, they can't be built that accurate 20:52:43 so in practice they have finite storage 20:52:49 that's kind of my point 20:53:15 also, it would be fun to actually build these chaotic circuits and hook them to my scope in XY mode and use some variable resistors/capacitors so i can mess with them 20:53:48 IIRC, y = ∫y+y ∂x would resolve to something like y = A*e**2x for some constant A, wouldn't it? 20:54:07 variable resistors are way cheaper and more reliable than variable capacitors 20:54:23 although variable capacitors look more electronicsy 20:54:41 ais523: yes, that looks more plausible (A being the initial value, so 0 isn't a good one) 20:55:18 the lack of parenthesis there still bothers me 20:55:38 ais523: ah, that was assuming x0 = 0; A = y0 * e^(-2x0) 20:55:42 it should be y = ∫(y+y)∂x and y = A*e**(2x) 20:56:01 ais523: this is true 20:56:17 but the language source code format, as you defined it, doesn't allow the former 20:56:22 I want to build a magnetic loop antenna and by far the most expensive component is a varicap 20:56:45 and depending on how much power you want to transmit, it needs a really high breakdown voltage (so vacuum dielectric is often used) 20:56:53 [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61736&oldid=59717 * Ais523 * (+10) fix the comment in the example 20:57:30 ais523: the @0 in the expression if y@0 ;-) 20:57:35 *is 20:58:01 [[Analogia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61737&oldid=61736 * Ais523 * (-8) /* Syntax */ sigh 20:58:29 but thanks, I can follow that example now at least :) 20:58:50 I thought to do instruction set for audio output in a computer design I was thinking of, to have one instruction for events: If there is no pending event, wait until there is. If there is a pending event, cancel that event and jump to the event handler for that event. 20:59:10 int-e: my last few esolangs each have the property that they were thought of long in advance, and then written up just before a meeting when I was tired 20:59:23 so the write-up is often fairly nonsensical until someone else reads it and tells me what's wrong 20:59:44 Each channel has a current value, new value, current duration, new duration, and expiry flag. When it expires, it sets the expiry flag and copies the new value/duration to the current value/duration; the expiry flag is then a event flag, which is cleared once the event is acknowledged. 20:59:45 ais523: yeah, it's been almost two years since I thought up Consumer Society 21:00:18 What do you think of that? 21:01:09 (In addition to the expiry events, there is also the receive data events.) 21:01:20 zzo38: and then there are arithmetic connectors and SRAM registers to transform the channel values to sound? 21:01:48 zzo38: I'm not sure if piecewise-linear is enough to produce a good set of envelopes; also, are the "values" frequency or amplitude or both? 21:02:02 timbre is also probably relevant, unless you want to write chiptune 21:02:18 b_jonas: Yes. 21:02:24 that looks like a good way to define an analog piecewise-linear output, though 21:03:20 ais523: The values are amplitude only. 21:03:37 oh, and they aren't being interpolated, so you have step changes, not piecewise-linear 21:04:09 you will need some way to sweep the values, because a sudden change in amplitude produces a step pulse, which has a very distinctive sound and one that people normally dislike using in music 21:04:27 it's sort-of like a clicking noise but a bit more distinctive than that 21:05:17 ais523: no, you'd have arithmetic connection between them, as in add, subtract, multiply, min, max, and sram registers that read every odd cycle and store a new value every even cycle, and you can get linear or polynomial or sine wave from those 21:05:21 hmm… the exception may be if you change the amplitude at the moment the oscillating output crosses zero 21:06:38 The duration would ordinarily be small enough (if the instructions run at 8.82 MHz then you have 200 instruction cycles to change the value of a 44100 Hz signal; if it is faster then you will have more). Many older computers I think did not interpolate, but anyways a analog filter can also be added if needed (that is what Amiga does) 21:07:20 zzo38: fwiw, the way practical sound cards nowadays do audio output is for the channels to use a queue of samples, specifying the voltage to output for each sample; the sound card will take a sample 44100 times per second, and the software will fill the queue back up much less frequently than that 21:07:45 sometimes if a computer's lagging really badly, the sound card repeats the same sound over and over, which I think is because the queue is a circular buffer and if nothing refills it it therefore ends up repeating itself 21:07:55 ais523: that's what new sound cards do. old ones have analog components in them, connected in a fixed manner, with parameters adjustable 21:08:16 yes, old ones normally had frequency and amplitude envelope generators 21:08:37 and supposedly noise generators too, though I don't know what those do 21:08:39 which let you specify what function should be used for the frequency and/or amplitude over time 21:08:52 b_jonas: they're basically just random number generators, which use the random numbers directly as samples 21:09:09 the result is an approximation of white noise 21:09:15 I see 21:09:22 yeah, that could owrk 21:09:32 The audio program can store stuff in the sound card's memory and make their own queue if you want to; the "receive data" events can be used to receive the data from the CPU if you want to do. You could also instead define it as having period and waveforms and stuff and implement that in the audio program instead, if you want to do. 21:09:34 luckily you don't need a very good random number generator for that, just good enough that human ears can't spot the pattern; I think LFSRs were the common implementation 21:10:06 ais523: yeah, those would probably be the easiest 21:10:16 since they need fewer bits of state and not much electronics 21:10:31 only constant multiplication and addition 21:10:49 no, that's LCRNG 21:10:56 LFSR/LFSRNG is even simpler in hardware 21:11:01 it's just a shift register and a few xors 21:11:06 Some old computers do use LFSR for the noise channel 21:11:09 oh 21:11:15 but don't you need a longer shift register for that? 21:11:24 I somehow think that would require slightly bigger hardware 21:11:41 not really, the period's still the same as that of an LCRNG on the same register size 21:11:43 yeah, I guess it's not much of a difference 21:11:48 (With what I have, you would be able to program it to act more like old computers or newer ones, or something else that you want to do, too) 21:13:29 hmm, apparently the version on Wikipedia has no constant term and thus the period is 1 shorter (as you have to avoid the all-zeroes state) 21:19:28 rfk86 (the TI-86 port of robotfindskitten) uses a LFSR-based RNG for positioning the NKIs, for no particular reason. 21:19:40 what does it use to position the KIs? 21:20:27 ...well, there's just one (per round). But I guess the same thing, I just didn't think of that. 21:20:47 Also for picking the descriptions. 21:21:42 I think it's seeded by the time you spend on the splash screen, so in theory you can win every time if you can measure that accurately enough. But that'd kind of miss the point of the game. 21:22:08 calculators seem like a bad platform for running robotfindskitten, as the executable is mostly text and not much logic 21:22:26 fwiw, I've seen people speedrun robotfindskitten, which I suspect is also missing the point of the game 21:22:44 Yes, there isn't much code. I did a simple LZ77/Huffman compression for the text. 21:23:08 ais523: sure, but then speedrunning can be enjoyable on its own, even if it doesn't give the original experience of the first gameplay 21:23:18 a lot of more broken speedruns are like that 21:23:20 b_jonas: have you /played/ robotfindskitten? :-D 21:23:27 no 21:23:48 It calls itself a "zen simulation", FWIW. 21:24:03 there are lots of games where I'd argue that speedrunning can be enjoyable even if it misses the point of the game, most games in fact 21:24:06 rfk is a special case 21:24:12 ok 21:24:29 You could also try porting to Glulx or Z-machine, which have built-in features for text compression (I wrote a assembler for Glulx, and for Z-machine there is ZAPF) 21:25:19 the hardest part about making that work would be the screen-oriented/vi-keys controls 21:25:24 (However, I think the way that the Huffman tree is stored in Glulx is rather inefficient) 21:25:26 There's an Inform port of the game. 21:25:44 ais523: In Glulx you can use a text grid window, and it supports single key input. 21:26:12 (It won't run on CheapGlk, but it will still work on GlkTerm and most other implementations) 21:26:24 zzo38: do you have ideas for efficient ways to store Huffman trees? I need one of those for a project I'm working on, and I have my own ideas too, but yours might be better 21:27:28 ais523: I think I mentioned here something before. 21:27:51 Looking at the readme, the Inform port doesn't compile to Glulx "because of copious use of Z-machine assembly instructions": https://github.com/DavidGriffith/rfk-inform 21:27:52 Involving the Kraft/MacMillian inequality, I think. 21:29:59 fizzie: Inform even uses an entirely different syntax for Z-machine assembly instructions than ZAP does; the names of the instructions are also different. (With Glulx, the names of the instructions are same but the syntax for operands differs in different implementations.) 21:30:09 zzo38: my approach is sort-of the reverse of that, I store the number of codewords of each length, and that's all you need to work out the codeword themselves (assuming a canonical Huffman code; there's no reason to use a non-canonical code) 21:30:54 then you just need to store the meanings of the codewords in some arbitrary order (e.g. length order, tiebroken by lexicographical order), and there's even scope for optimisation there because if two codewords have the same length you can swap their meanings without any loss in efficiency 21:31:16 Yes, I was also assuming canonical. However, I was perhaps assuming a different kind of method for meanings of codewords. 21:33:40 (Which is better probably depends what kind of data you are compressing; what you do is probably better for what you were thinking of.) 21:34:31 There is a example Glulx program with glasm syntax in esolang wiki in the article about Deadfish. (I also wrote a Z-machine implementation on Glulx with glasm.) 21:36:58 ais523: have you figured out anything new about that letter permutation problem? ← it's NP-complete but I found an approximate solution that was good enough for my purposes 21:37:07 oh nice 21:37:13 how did you prove it's NP-complete? 21:37:21 clique cover problem 21:37:34 I don't know if do you want to write any programs in Glulx? 21:37:35 oh, that's not actually a proof I think, just a guess 21:37:45 because I'm not sure you can translate sufficiently arbitrary graphs 21:38:01 but the Wikipedia article implies that clique cover is NP-complete for most types of graph, except the ones where it obviously isn't 21:38:06 so I didn't car eto look further 21:38:10 ok, so we don't know yet if there's a polynomial solution 21:39:53 I thought about it only a little, and all I got was see why the simple polynomial solution doesn't actually work 21:40:30 but I don't really know whether there's a polynomial solution or not 21:48:10 -!- aloo_shu has joined. 21:48:44 b_jonas: well it's literally just the clique cover problem on the graph specified by "sequences are compatible with each other", assuming that pairwise compatbility in a group means that the whole group is compatible at once 21:48:58 so the question boils down to what sort of graph the sequences can generate 21:49:04 -!- aloo_shu has left ("WeeChat 2.4"). 21:49:26 ais523: hmm 21:49:37 I think I've been misunderstanding something here 21:49:48 I'll have to re-read what you wrote about this probably 22:20:14 maybe I should learn some python3 22:25:42 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:29:53 -!- rodgort has joined. 22:37:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:36 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:26:56 wow, robotfindskitten has an info file 23:27:28 also a man page, but that's less surprising 23:28:35 you can also move the robot using both vikeys and emacs-keys (emacs-keys are somewhat impractical for a roguelike…) 23:29:18 ais523: can you move them with wasd (or waxd)? numpad? 23:29:29 numpad yes, I think wasd no, but I'll try 23:30:11 Emacs keys are no more impractical for a roguelike than they are for emacs, are they? 23:30:37 WASD doesn't work 23:31:18 Do you think one-pass UI layout is practical? 23:31:21 shachaf: so vi has this insert mode / command mode split, in insert mode almost all keys just insert themselves literally and to leave it you press Escape to enter command mode 23:31:32 ais523: nor does wordstar keys, as in ^E ^S ^X ^D right? 23:31:54 in Emacs, instead of there being keys to toggle between the modes, you're effectively in insert mode except when holding a modifier key 23:32:04 Modal UIs are so good. 23:32:06 for basic things like movement, you hold ctrl to give the command and release to return to insert mode 23:32:12 I've been adding modal UIs all over the place. 23:32:20 I guess people normally call them menus. 23:32:29 yeah, control or alt in emacs 23:32:35 this is pretty much equally as fast as the vi method once you're used to it, and has the advantage that you can't be in the wrong mode by mistake, but it's kind-of silly if your game doesn't /have/ insert mode 23:32:48 For example, I press the printscreen key, and then I get a list of options: [w]indow, [r]oot, [s]election 23:33:15 So I don't have to remember to press alt-shift-printscreen or cmd-shift-5 or whatever people normally do. 23:33:19 (vi has, in general, faster cursor movement and basic editing commands than emacs, but it's not because it's modal, it's just because it has a better selection of them) 23:33:27 for this innovation i should get a nobel prize in ui design 23:33:34 ais523: I think back in the 8-bit era, there was a popular keyboard control scheme for top-view games where IIRC your left hand controls up-down movement, and the right hand left-right movement 23:33:53 shachaf: Yes, there are menus like that in many programs, although there are also programs having modes without menus (such as vi and ZZTQED) 23:33:56 emacs keys is sort of like that but with more contortion 23:34:21 b_jonas: Yes, I have played some game like that 23:34:30 shachaf: I don't use printscreen, I just use gimp to make screenshots 23:34:46 (I have found that some support the arrow keys as well, but some don't) 23:35:02 zzo38: Do you like Xlib? 23:35:04 I don't use printscreen for screenshots either; I use programs I wrote myself 23:35:33 this is because I almost always want to edit the screenshot once I take it, so I need gimp anyway 23:36:08 I once used the files in /dev that hold copies of the contents of the various virtual terminals to take screenshots 23:36:18 shachaf: Yes, I have used Xlib to write X client programs (including a screenshot program) 23:36:55 I don't think X was even running at the time, or I wouldn't have had to resort to that method 23:36:58 ais523: What files are those, and what format? 23:37:09 ais523: /dev/vcs1 and /dev/vcsa1 23:37:30 zzo38: see man 4 vcs 23:37:42 zzo38: I wanted to implement the X protocol myself, but unfortunately using Xlib is mandatory. 23:37:45 Do you like this? 23:37:47 vcs just has the bytes in it, vcsa has the attributes too 23:37:52 b_jonas: OK, I will look 23:37:56 zzo38: the format is basically the first line, followed by the second line, followed by the third line, etc., but they aren't separated with newlines, rather each line contains every character on it up to the edge of the screen, things "past the end of the line" are padded with NUL or space 23:38:05 shachaf: There is also xcb in case you don't like Xlib 23:38:28 But you have to use xcb if you want to use OpenGL. 23:38:36 Uh, you have to use xlib. 23:39:09 shachaf: how can it be mandatory? you can have a basic X client that connects to a remote X server through a tcp socket. how can the server know whether you're Xlib? 23:39:19 It's only mandatory for OpenGL. 23:39:38 But I think GPU rendering is mandatory for software nowadays. 23:39:42 sure 23:40:07 ais523: Is it like the PC text screen format? I read that man page, and so also, how to determine the font? 23:40:16 not necessarily GPU rendering, but at least client-side rendering, as opposed to having the X server draw graphics for you 23:40:32 zzo38: there are ioctls for that, see man console_ioctl 23:40:38 Speaking of liking this, do you like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19701275 ? 23:40:41 zzo38: wait, I have an example for that 23:40:55 I often just draw graphics by the X server; it works well enough for most stuff 23:41:27 shachaf: As you can see, I already answered that question. 23:41:36 zzo38: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=793690 reads the font with that ioctl 23:42:01 might not work on modern linux if it uses framebuffer console, that is, when console has the graphics card in graphics mode actually, not in VGA text mode 23:42:17 I was asking whether you liked the comment "Do you like this?". 23:42:24 Also I was asking int-e, I think. 23:42:37 I think there's also an ioctl to read the video mode and the palette 23:42:42 or something 23:43:16 I don't know how to read the cursor setting 23:44:35 stupid question. how does SNES Earthbound display text in a proportional width font? isn't that impossible in the SNES graphics hardware? 23:45:35 and it's not just a few instances of text. it has a lot of in-game text, and also allows you to enter a character name and displays that with the proportional pitch font too 23:45:48 I don't think so. I know some programs on NES/Famicom use proportional text, and it would be done by writing the text into CHR RAM 23:45:59 I don't know much how SNES works, but it might do something similar 23:46:11 hmm 23:47:09 how much RAM does that graphics chip have? can it store four separate character tables, each of 255 cells, for the four layers? 23:47:12 or three at least? 23:47:28 maybe it only uses two layers 23:47:31 teh game that is 23:47:34 there are various video moeds 23:47:47 probably switches too 23:48:12 seems like magic 23:48:14 b_jonas: IIRC the NES could use CHR RAM that was stored on the cartridge (rather than the console) 23:48:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:48:25 so there was no limit in the console, but the more you wanted, the more expensive the cartridge would have to be 23:48:34 ais523: yeah, that seems possible, if the rom is fast enough 23:49:08 it wouldn't surprise me if the SNES worked the same way 23:49:35 likely 23:49:59 In NES, the console has only 2K RAM for the PPU (usually used only for the name tables, not the pattern tables), and the cartridge contains ROM or RAM for the pattern tables. 23:50:34 ok, but this is the SNES, its hardware is a bit stronger 23:50:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:50:49 Yes, but I don't know how it is work on SNES 23:51:17 the N64 allowed you to add extra RAM in the controller 23:51:42 rendering proportional width text into RAM purely in CPU is quite a feat though 23:51:49 this seems like an implausible UX decision, so most likely it was a combination of backwards-compatibility decisions 23:52:05 ais523: in the *controller*? wtf 23:52:26 b_jonas: yes; out of all the places to put it, I might not have guessed that one at all 23:52:52 my guess as to what happened is that they allowed add-ons to be placed in the controller for, e.g., rumble units and tilt sensors 23:52:57 PCs had the joystick port on sound cards 23:53:12 then when they started making games that needed additional RAM, the controller add-on slot was the most convenient place to put it 23:53:13 I know you could have memory cards in there, but wait, was the protocol actually fast enough to use for something other than save games? 23:53:17 sure, but why would they have a controller connector that's fast enough to relay RAM? 23:53:35 a tilt sensor or vibrating motor wouldn't need much bandwidth 23:53:35 I thought the RAM goes in that port on the top of the N64 23:53:37 maybe both? 23:53:41 ais523: Uh, the N64 Expansion Pak was not a controller addon. 23:53:49 pikhq: oh, OK, that makes more sense 23:54:07 this one goes in the console itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_accessories#Expansion_Pak_(NUS-007) 23:54:21 in a way it's a pity I misremembered, because the mismemory was pretty eso 23:54:43 The N64 used RDRAM, and the Expansion Pak plugged into a custom RDRAM slot on the console. 23:54:55 ais523: some of the things those 8-bit consoles and games do are pretty eso, or seem like that to me anyway 23:55:07 kind of crazy to think that thing had only 4MB of RAM out of the box 23:55:08 Because it was RDRAM, you had to pull out the RDRAM bus terminator to put it in. 23:55:36 what's the deal with RDRAM 23:56:18 what's "RDRAM"? 23:56:29 Proprietary high bandwidth but high latency bus that DDR beat out. 23:56:35 I see 23:57:31 and now we have like DDR4 or something 23:57:32 yeah but what specifically makes it different from other DRAM 23:57:35 I'm not sure what the latest is 23:57:53 the N64 had 4 MB of RAM on a 500 MB/s bus 23:57:56 lol 23:58:46 that's nice 23:59:00 though of course it depends on what the latency is 23:59:04 and how the cpu can use it 23:59:09 RDRAM used a substantially more serial bus, clocked at a higher speed. 23:59:34 The N64 had a 9 bit bus to its RAM, clocked at 500 MHz. 23:59:53 but then, it needs the high speed because the N64 has a pretty powerful graphics chipset 2019-05-06: 00:00:06 I assume the graphics has to read from the RAM quickly 00:00:21 By way of comparison, DDR 1 has a 64-bit bus width. 00:00:31 9-bit bus? wow 00:01:36 And the latencies were kinda dumb. PC-800 RAM had a 45 ns latency. 00:02:07 RAM latencies are always high. they have to be because of the physical distances involved. the signal can't travel faster than light speed. 00:02:23 45 ns is 4 times higher than DDR. 00:02:42 Or more, if you aren't looking at the _slowest_ variety. 00:03:52 anyway, good night 00:04:08 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:04:37 fizzie: I still don't understand why Hungary can have settlements called Csabaszabadi, Rábaszentandrás, Rábaszentmihály, and Rábaszentmiklós <-- you do realize one has to know hungarian to get anything more than "given the prior discussion there's probably some bad words hidden in there, but i have no idea which ones", right? 00:05:40 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:06:59 -!- FreeFull has joined. 00:11:03 fantastic timing there 00:11:12 * oerjan was scrolled up 00:11:46 is it just me or is "you do realize ..., right?" a very rude idiom? 00:12:28 usually people say it when they think someone doesn't realize something, but also it's so obvious that they should realize it and feel bad for not having done so 00:13:08 or otherwise accusing them of saying something wrong despite realizing 00:15:20 i should perhaps have rephrased. i was annoyed, and then got _more_ annoyed because it's so awkward to edit long lines in irssi. 00:15:31 I mean, it's also a standard idiom. 00:15:40 I'm just confusil that it's so standard when it seems so rude. 00:15:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 00:16:01 that's because these days it's standard to be rude hth 00:16:11 `owrjan 00:16:12 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 00:16:42 heck, even "is it just me" has rude connotations. 00:16:55 (to play the ball back) 00:17:01 I agree. 00:17:08 fight rudeness with rudeness 00:20:21 yeah 00:20:37 "You do realize that starting a sentence with 'You do realize' makes you sound like a dick, right?" 00:20:45 but whatever 00:21:11 man 00:22:02 it's `c̀ool to be rudé´ on the internet, isn't it 00:22:47 you gotta do it ironically. but on the internet doing something ironically is the same as actually doing it. 00:22:59 shachaf: I believe the proper term is "condescending". 00:23:06 perhaps 00:23:45 * oerjan looks askance at int-e for sending him on a schlock mercenary binge 00:23:49 I think it helps to be clarified though 00:23:50 shachaf: You should appreciate the fact that I did not start that sentence with "You do realize that". :-P 00:23:59 I do! 00:24:14 (But I couldn't help myself.) 00:24:29 one of the reasons I stopped using Twitter is that rude / condescending seems to be the norm there 00:24:32 of course, it depends who you follow 00:24:40 but I found myself doing it too and that sucks 00:24:42 my twitterxperiences seem different from yours 00:25:02 sure 00:25:09 probably because of a superior unfollow policy 00:25:20 oerjan: The author's advice is to skip the first couple of years. (That said, I enjoyed those as well.) 00:25:28 where if people said things that made me sad and didn't produce a lot of other value i'd stop reading their things 00:25:33 but I think to the degree people talk about politics and stuff, the default is either sarcastic dismissal or condescending mini-lectures 00:25:41 which are meant more to get applause from the people who already agree 00:25:49 (But the writing and art has imrproved noticably since then.) 00:25:51 yep 00:25:53 shachaf: yeah well it helps if you aren't following people who are bad for you out of guilt 00:26:00 yes 00:26:00 anyway 00:26:02 a happier thing 00:26:09 there have been many cats on this trip 00:26:11 https://imgur.com/a/LzI4Rlb 00:26:44 They don't give me permission to access /dev/vcsa1 even though I am logged in to that one 00:26:46 cats are pretty reasonable creatures 00:26:53 more than humans 00:26:55 int-e: i didn't start at the beginning, i googled for "fermi paradox" and am currently in late 2016. 00:26:57 I was at another house which had 7 cats, but i didn't see any of them 00:27:07 they were hiding from the three dogs and many humans 00:27:49 I visited a place that had two cats but one of them was of the scaredy variety. 00:27:58 It took several days before he even came out of hiding. 00:28:11 But eventually he came and sat on me and purred! 00:28:22 Which is a thing few people can say, apparently. 00:28:55 awww <3 00:28:57 too good 00:29:19 That was a top-notch cat. 00:29:31 The other cat was of the same notch. 00:29:45 Come to think of it, I'm hard-pressed to think of any other notch of cat. 00:31:58 `? cat 00:31:59 Cats are cool, but should be illegal. 00:32:57 oerjan: have fun! 00:33:01 Did you know writing C is the best? 00:33:16 Cats are kind of unpredictable. When we got a cat and let it out of the carrying cage at home for the first time, we expected it to do the normal cat thing of finding a corner to hide in and then carefully exploring out, but it just went immediately around every room and in general just behaved as if it had always lived there. 00:33:26 I actually wrote some C today. Nothing useful. 00:33:49 They're unpredictable because they're mammals with a brain+personality. 00:33:55 Which is pretty great. I'm a fan of mammals. 00:33:58 I wrote more Coq today than that... nothing useful either ;-) 00:34:28 (I suppose technically the Coq stuff happened yesterday.) 00:34:47 seems my binge has covered only about a year, and it still ruined my sleep cycle. 00:34:47 Did you see the fancy C printf I did? 00:34:56 http://slbkbs.org/tmp/fmt.txt 00:34:59 No. Is it useful? 00:35:34 Hmm, it's made some kinds of debugging a bit faster. 00:35:51 I think it may be a little too hacky to actually use for real code, but I'm not sure. 00:39:21 the CUSTOM_FMT_TYPES probably doesn't scale just like that? 00:39:49 Every argument expands to something that includes _Generic(..., CUSTOM_FMT_TYPES) 00:40:49 So it's probably not a good idea to put any ol' type in it. 00:41:32 though I guess you could hack something slightly more robust with a central registry and some __attribute__((constructor)) magic. 00:41:34 But it's nice to put a few standard types in it. So you can outfmt("position is {}", v); rather than printf("position is %f,%f", v.x, v.y); 00:41:45 Can you? 00:41:50 How would you get the type information? 00:42:14 Oh. 00:42:29 It's invalid to have two associations that specify compatible types, so I guess that directly rules out custom formatting of anything that appears in the "...". 00:42:59 Sure. But the ... is just a few built-in types. 00:43:10 For structures you define yourself, you can use zero length arrays to determine a type identifier at compile time, at least in GNU C. 00:43:11 shachaf: Right, I wouldn't. I missed the point that the format specifiers don't actually describe the type. 00:43:32 If you really cared you could have a flag to take the built-in types out and make everything custom. 00:44:02 Also, some format specifiers just ignore the type. So you can use {:p} to print out a pointer regardless of the type. 00:44:11 Presumably I could make those customizable as well. 00:44:54 outfmt("{:your_thing}", your_thing_value);, where you have to take care to match up your_thing with the type. 00:45:48 But it's sure nice when it's automatic, and you don't have to remember to do %ld or %zu or %"PRIi64" or whatever! 00:46:33 The PR* macros do look messy. 00:47:05 I just wish C had a bit of runtime type information for this kind of thing. 00:47:23 guess what the surrounding code is doing: printf("%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"%08"PRIx32"\n", bswap_32(H.a), bswap_32(H.b), bswap_32(H.c), bswap_32(H.d)); 00:47:56 something terrible hth 00:48:12 I think that often you can use compile time type information and you do not need runtime type information. 00:48:18 (that line is printing an md5 hash) 00:48:24 zzo38: OK, then I wish C had that. 00:48:32 int-e: I guessed MD5 from the a, b, c, d names and the 128 bits. 00:48:47 Oh, I have a line that prints a sha1 hash. 00:48:49 fizzie: yeah, that was the idea. 00:49:02 "%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x%02x" 00:49:09 fizzie: that one could reasonably infer MD5 from precisely those bits. 00:49:21 shachaf: I mentioned a way in which you can sometimes do it, in GNU C. (GNU C also has some other built-ins which may be helpful for type information too) 00:49:27 It took me too long to look up the RFC to validate the guess, unfortunately. 00:49:33 (and maybe the H which is a common abbreviation for hashes) 00:49:54 I think SHA-1 adds an "E". 00:50:00 But why do you byte swap? 00:50:03 fizzie: I didn't think anyone would seriously take me up on this, so sorry for not waiting longer. :) 00:50:25 Hmm, is this a use of byte swap that doesn't depend on machine endianness? 00:50:39 shachaf: because that's the order in which the bytes of the word are usually printed, least significant byte first. 00:50:47 s/word/words/ 00:50:59 But the hash itself is defined by operating on 32 bit words. 00:51:15 (four of them at a time) 00:51:33 Oh man, MD5 is specified to be little-endian? 00:51:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:51:50 I implemented sha1 a few days ago and it's specified to be big-endian. 00:52:12 Of course nowadays you should use neither of these hashes. But sha1 is by far not the worst part of the thing I was implementing. 00:53:05 I know for sure I've implemented either MD5 or SHA-1 (or both) for *something*, but I have no recollection what it could've been for. 00:53:30 I've implemented sha1 at least twice. 00:53:45 The first time was in Ruby and operating on strings of the characters '0' and '1' 00:53:47 shachaf: "The message digest produced as output is A, B, C, D. That is, we begin with the low-order byte of A, and end with the high-order byte of D." 00:53:59 So yeah, little endian is specified. 00:53:59 It was for a length extension attack for a capture the flag context. I think kmc did it as well. 00:54:00 * pikhq has implemented a number of cryptographic primitives for shits and giggles 00:54:16 the funny thing is that the byte order in cryptohashes is completely arbitrary anyway 00:54:22 so it's not even little-endian, it's more like ABCD-endian 00:54:23 Chacha20 is one of the more pleasant ones. 00:54:45 Salsa20 is p. good. 00:54:47 (too dumb to fuck up that hard) 00:55:17 I like the thing Bernstein says about how if people keep not implementing your primitives correctly then you should fix the primitives rather than blame the implementors. 00:55:47 how about we do both 00:55:56 I can get behind that one. 00:56:17 Devs should be more rigorous with crypto code, but crypto primitives should tolerate worse programmers than they do currently. 00:56:20 If every single implementor does it wrong? 00:56:29 then you have Underload :-D 00:57:01 shachaf: you should have a reference implementation? (which may be wrong) 00:57:27 int-e: By "correctly" I include things like being constant time. 00:57:36 Not just the values computed. 00:57:36 the only cases which come to mind where a cryptoprimitive may be "too hard" to implement are to do with sidechannels 00:57:44 like the timing issues shachaf mentioned 00:57:47 Right. 00:57:55 I'm not sure constant-time operations are even possible on modern processors 00:58:11 given that they're effectively miniature JITs 00:58:19 "constant-time" means "distribution of times does not depend on inputs" ;-) 00:58:22 ais523: That is one thing I wanted to make the computer that does have constant-time operations. 00:58:28 They often aren't, but for cryptographic purposes you don't care about being constant-time per se. 00:58:39 You care about having execution time that is not a function of secret data. 00:58:50 zzo38: many older processors do, e.g. the 6502 has rigidly defined timing rules for every operation, which can be used to make delays that last a precise number of clock cycles 00:59:02 Yes, I want to do like that. 00:59:11 Constant time is a nice way to get there, but it is strictly more powerful than needed to avoid timing side-channels. 00:59:47 the hardware compilers I was working on used constant-time operations where possible in order to choreograph the pipelining 01:00:22 (instead of doing things like register forwarding, they used pipelining for parallelism, effectively running a large number of different threads through the implementations of the same instructions; I suspect modern GPUs do something similar) 01:01:02 Of course, if you're the NSA you have a vested interest in getting people to use ciphers that are _hard_ to avoid timing side-channels in. 01:01:04 even then, though, power draw would be an obvious alternative side-channel to use 01:01:07 e.g. AES. 01:01:35 I think secure smart-cards do things like storing every bit as a pair of a 0 and a 1 so that the power draw when processing it is approximately constant 01:01:42 Power draw seems much less concerning than timing. 01:02:10 It shouldn't be discounted, but whether or not it matters depends a lot on your threat model. 01:02:59 e.g. are you concerned about leaking secret data to someone in physical proximity to the device, or just someone with access to timing data in some fashion? 01:03:02 I mean that it's much less widely applicable. 01:03:22 You mean to tell me you can't measure power usage over the Internet? 01:04:32 Do you like https://sorting.cr.yp.to/ ? 01:05:22 pikhq: there are known side-channel attacks where people have measured power usage over the internet by using it to indirectly affect the room temperature, then determine /that/ from timing attacks 01:05:31 shachaf: Oh MD5 actually mixes endianness... 0x80 is the first bit of a byte. (This is visible in the specification because MD5 actually supports bit string messages whose length is not divisible by 8). 01:05:32 I think, at least, it's a vague memory from a while ago 01:05:40 somehow I doubt that that technique is very accurate :-D 01:05:47 int-e: Ah, right, the padding works by appending a 1 bit. 01:07:12 ais523: Wow. 01:07:25 ais523: This sounds hard to pull off except in some limited cases. 01:08:15 you'd probably have to concentrate on trying to magnify the effect of a single bit of the secret data as far as possible, running the same computation billions of times 01:13:07 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_analysis the attack's mainly used by people with physical access, I can see why 01:18:18 Firefox put out a blog post, which still doesn't adress the root of the problem 01:18:54 which is that they designed their system such that a single certificate caused all add-ons to be disabled, for everyone, everywhere 01:19:22 orin: actually, what worries me more is that they can somehow fix the issue without re-signing every add-on 01:22:56 the fact that they disabled everyone's adblock is a giant security risk. probably much bigger than allowing unsigned add ons 01:25:31 the way I see it, they should check the addons when they are installed. but never disable a previously installed add one 01:34:37 They should check them once they are installed, and then warn the user if it is not valid but allow installing it anyways if the user accepts it (the user must accept it even if the certificate is valid, because they might not want to install it), and then don't disable a previously installed add-on (the exception is if the user has enabled automatic updates for that add-on, the add-on has been revoked, and the user hasn't disabled revoking add-on 01:42:59 ais523: I think that's just x509 being a touch weird. You sign things with the secret key associated with a cert, but trust based on the cert itself. So if you get a renewed cert with the same secret key, all those signatures are magically valid when tested against the new cert. 01:56:23 apparently there's a remote power usage attack nowadays using FPGAs; presumably you have access to the FPGA on one user account, and are trying to attack data it doesn't have access to side-channel-wise 01:56:35 FPGAs are configurable enough that getting one of them to detect power drain seems viable 01:56:56 but of course, it's still fairly rare for computers to contain software-configurable FPGA coprocessors (not unheard of, though) 02:00:09 https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/f1/ 02:01:28 (cloud servers are a juicy target for side channel attacks) 02:01:57 the real problem with FPGA coprocessing is trying to find a task that FPGAs are good at but both CPUs and GPUS are bad at 02:02:08 (this is difficult because FPGAs are somewhere between CPUs and GPUs in terms of performance properties) 02:03:28 https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle may be such a thing - essentially: multiplying large but fixed size numbers (2048 bits in that case). 02:04:36 OK, so you use your entire FPGA space to create yourself a combinatorial multiplier, I guess, and use that? CPUs and GPUs will typically have combinatorial multipliers, but not ones 2048 bits wide 02:05:06 yes. 02:05:10 although I'm not sure if a typical FPGA even has that much logic space; I think some of the really expensive large ones would 02:05:32 essentially FPGAs have massive bandwidth 02:05:54 while memory bandwidth is limited on CPUs and on GPUs as well. 02:06:05 well the "square this number trillions of times" problem doesn't really need bandwidth, just a really fast squaring circuit 02:06:19 squaring is probably less space-intensive than multiplication due to symmetry 02:06:41 but I'd agree that it's hard to find tasks where using FPGAs pays off. 02:06:47 FPGAs are also fairly limited on memory bandwidth but they let you put special-purpose caches in random places, which makes up for it 02:07:51 Yeah but you *can* operate on many bits in parallel and also propagate that information to the next functional building block in a massively parallel fashion. 02:08:12 int-e: that's what a combinatorial circuit is 02:08:16 GPUs can do the former, but fail at the latter. 02:08:26 a function as complex as you like, running in just a single clock cycle 02:08:44 GPUs are actually fairly good at the propagation, the problem is just that they have to loop through their list of instructions to get there 02:09:03 so they're never going to be as fast as the combinatorial solution 02:09:27 that said, I hate to think how complex the circuit would have to be to run the clock at all fast when you're trying to multiply 2048 bits per cycle 02:12:24 Well from the data in the article, the CPU is taking over a microsecond per modular squaring, 4k clock cycles. You're trying to beat that, so it doesn't have to run in a single clock cycle at all. 02:13:12 "Cryptophage can do one 2048 bit modular squaring approximately every 70 nanoseconds. In comparison, a high-end desktop processor would take over 1000 nanoseconds to complete the same operation." 02:20:17 I wish they would say what FPGA they used for that... will have to wait. 02:20:41 But I should also sleep... 02:24:44 -!- tromp has joined. 02:24:50 looking up some statistics on large FPGA multipiers, I'd predict about 40ns per clock cycle for a 2048-bit karatsuba-ofman multiplier (which is combinatorial), space usage seems pretty frightening but should still be well under a million LUTs 02:25:20 that said, the FPGA would almost certainly run out of dedicated multiplication circuits unless it were very large, so you'd have to build them out of logic gates 02:29:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:34:17 I get a "Invalid argument" error when trying to use GIO_FONTX to read the font from the screen. Why doesn't it work? 02:35:26 Loading the palette works, and loading the contents of the screen also works, but the font doesn't work. 02:38:23 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:47:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:47:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 03:03:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:20:42 I found out by looking at other program source codes that KDFONTOP works, so now it works. 03:37:53 Now I made the ff-vccapture program, which works for me, but if it doesn't work on your computer then you should please report it (and if you know how to fix it, report that too). 03:55:19 Now they did something else in the Magic: the Gathering rules: Now there are no line feeds. 03:56:56 -!- weston has joined. 03:57:24 !ztest name [-][-]+[+]>+++++>>-[+]<[-]--[]>[++]+>>++<+++++++>+>>[+]<<+>++++++++<+[+]+++<+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+[+]+<+++[+]+>++++++++<+[+]+<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>+++>+<<+<+>++[+]+<+++++++>+[+]+<+++++++>+>++>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]+++<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>++>[+]<<+<+>+<+++++>+>++>[+]<++++>+++++++++++++[+]+<+++++++>+>++>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]+++<++++++++<+<+++++++++>+>++>[+]<<+<+>+<+++++>+>++>[+]<++++>++++++++<+[+]+++<+++++++<+[+]++++++ 03:57:25 weston.name: points -23.00, score 3.48, rank 47/47 03:58:11 !ztest name2 >>---- 03:58:11 weston.name2: points -33.05, score 3.08, rank 47/47 03:58:50 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 04:00:31 !ztest 46a1700 +++[]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]++>+++++++++++<+[+]+ 04:00:31 weston.46a1700: points -33.90, score 2.91, rank 47/47 04:01:13 !ztest z <-+>+++[++--]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]><+++->++++++++<>+++<+[+]+ 04:01:13 weston.z: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 04:01:22 !ztest z -+>+++[++--]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]><+++->++++++++<>+++<+[+]+ 04:01:23 weston.z: points -18.26, score 4.96, rank 47/47 04:01:48 !ztest z +++[]+++[+]+++++++[-[-]]++++++[[+]-]+++++[+]++++++++>>+>++>[+]++>+++++++++++<+[+]+ 04:01:48 weston.z: points -33.90, score 2.91, rank 47/47 04:02:31 !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++ 04:02:31 weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ] 04:02:43 !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++ 04:02:43 weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ] 04:03:34 !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++ 04:03:34 weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ] 04:03:45 !ztest z +>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++< 04:03:45 weston: error: parse error: terminating ] without a matching [ 04:03:57 !ztest z [+>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++<+[+]++>[+]+++>+++++++<+[+]+++++<++>+<[+]+++<[++]++++++>+>++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<+++++++<++>+<+]++++++++<+[+]+++++++>+>+>++++<++++++[++]<+++++++>-[+]++++++++<[+]+++>++++++++<+<[+]+++<+[+]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++++++[+]++>[+]++>+++++++<+[+]+<+[<]+++++++>+>+<++>+<+>[+]+++>++++>>++++++>+>+++++>+++++++<+[+]+++++++++>+>++>[+]<++<<<+>+<+++++++>[+]---->++++++>[+]---->-[-]+++++>[++<+++++++ 04:03:57 weston: error: parse error: starting [ without a matching ] 04:04:47 !ztest z > 04:04:47 weston.z: points -33.95, score 2.90, rank 47/47 04:04:52 !ztest z . 04:04:53 weston.z: points -33.95, score 2.90, rank 47/47 04:04:56 !ztest z < 04:04:56 weston.z: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 04:06:27 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:11:55 -!- weston has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:12:40 -!- tromp has joined. 04:17:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:19:48 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61738&oldid=61725 * JonoCode9374 * (+36) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ Is this what you meant? 04:20:28 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61739&oldid=61738 * JonoCode9374 * (+2) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ I cant format 04:24:15 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61740&oldid=61717 * JonoCode9374 * (-12) /* For Loops */ very minor editing 04:26:36 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61741&oldid=61739 * JonoCode9374 * (-36) /* Problem #1. Golf the Hello, World! program. */ Just some formatting 04:28:38 [[Keg/Golfing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61742&oldid=61741 * JonoCode9374 * (-42) Just some formatting things. 04:30:11 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61743&oldid=61732 * JonoCode9374 * (+43) very minor 04:32:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 04:33:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:34:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 05:28:22 My own method of posting NNTP articles is to prepare a "POSTQUIT file" and then to use "nc localhost 119 < article" to send it. 05:33:11 I have seen apparently some software that can display NNTP articles on a webpage will parse the text as markdown. I think that it should not do that unless the article contains a "Content-type: text/markdown" header; that indicates that it is in markdown format, so it is sensible to parse it as markdown in that case. 05:47:52 int-e: Do you think there's any solution for this fmt thing other than _Generic? 05:56:36 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:57:38 What does _Generic mean? 06:06:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:08:03 zzo38: It's a C99 feature. 06:08:46 _Generic(x, type1: value1, type2: value2: default: value3) will have the value value1 if x's type is type1, and so on. 06:08:57 It's how I made that fmt thing work. 06:10:08 OK 06:54:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:00:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:19:13 -!- tromp has joined. 07:40:02 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61744&oldid=61743 * JonoCode9374 * (-94) Very minor edit here folks. 07:48:13 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:00:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:07:06 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:07:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:14:47 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:20:42 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 08:27:38 -!- tromp has joined. 09:06:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:14:33 -!- tromp has joined. 09:15:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:18:16 -!- tromp has joined. 09:31:19 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:01:33 -!- tromp has joined. 10:25:55 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:26:19 " https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle may be such a thing - essentially: multiplying large but fixed size numbers (2048 bits in that case)." => that link is broken, or my firefox is broken 10:27:28 " you do realize one has to know hungarian to get anything more than "given the prior discussion there's probably some bad words hidden in there, but i have no idea which ones", right?" => nah, I've seen people know swearwords in dozens of languages. apparently it's a useful skill for driving a car. 10:27:44 so you can insult anyone on the road or something. 10:28:52 " "constant-time" means "distribution of times does not depend on inputs" ;-)" => I'm not sure that's enough. the distrib also shouldn't depend on process state that the CPU might know about other than the inputs for that one operation too 10:32:07 zzo38: reading the font => is it a tty device, on linux, in VGA text mode (as opposed to linux framebuffer text console, which uses graphics mode of the video card)? 10:32:33 " Now they did something else in the Magic: the Gathering rules: Now there are no line feeds." => who are they? 10:33:46 shachaf: um, you could try to use C++ if you want to dispatch among types. 10:34:01 it's usually not too difficult to convert real C programs to C++ 10:34:39 especially because there's a high amount of binary compatibility and header source compatibility, so you can convert only a subset of compilation units 10:37:24 C++ is scow, though. 10:37:46 Also, every real C program is undefined behavior in C++. 10:39:55 Most real C programs are undefined behaviour in C 10:40:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:41:42 wob_jonas: it comes down to defining "input" properly. 10:44:34 and it gets tricky, because not only does your special crypto algorithm have to be constant time, that would be easy, you also mustn't leak information in side channels in all the other non-crypto stuff that you run, unless they're definitely isolated from your secret data, 10:44:36 wob_jonas: and maybe I should stress that this should hold in the presence of adverserial workloads (that selectively flush cashes etc.) 10:44:39 and in the end it just all gets impossible 10:56:23 . o O ( please allow cookies from our site so that we know that you do not want us to track you. ) 11:07:23 -!- Frater_EST has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:08:02 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 11:10:53 -!- tromp has joined. 11:12:04 -!- Frater_EST has left. 11:27:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:34:00 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:09:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:33:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:50:05 -!- imode has joined. 13:08:08 -!- tromp has joined. 13:31:38 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61745&oldid=61742 * A * (+102) Combine the tips into 9 tips 13:34:30 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61746&oldid=61745 * A * (-145) Delete a trivial tip (add it when functions are implemented) 13:36:49 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61747&oldid=61746 * A * (+76) /* Problem #1. Golf the Hello, World! program. */ 13:37:32 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61748&oldid=61747 * A * (+2) grm: add subject that the pronoun refers to 13:42:11 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61749&oldid=61740 * A * (-1) Minor typo 13:46:53 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61750&oldid=61748 * A * (+269) Add a tip that I recently concluded 13:57:52 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61751&oldid=61749 * A * (-6) Tried my best to golf the Deadfish interpreter again 13:58:17 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61752&oldid=61751 * A * (+0) /* Deadfish */ 14:03:45 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61753&oldid=61750 * A * (+398) 14:04:52 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61754&oldid=61753 * A * (-4) Whoa, I used the same code snippet. 14:05:50 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61755&oldid=61754 * A * (-13) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 14:11:21 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61756&oldid=61752 * A * (+163) /* Deadfish */ 14:14:35 -!- user24 has joined. 14:14:40 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61757&oldid=61755 * A * (+399) Use my golfing idea(golfs down another byte) 14:16:19 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61758&oldid=61756 * A * (-163) /* Deadfish */ 14:17:40 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61759&oldid=61757 * A * (+77) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 14:30:44 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61760&oldid=61759 * A * (+238) 14:31:29 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61761&oldid=61758 * A * (-1) Golfed it even more 14:32:17 [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61762&oldid=61685 * A * (-7) Add my golfed program in Keg. 14:35:18 -!- moei has joined. 14:36:00 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:38:32 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61763&oldid=61761 * A * (-2) Slightly golfed it 14:42:57 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:46:11 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61764&oldid=61760 * A * (+1) /* Tips that do not seem to fit anywhere but still relate to golfing */ 14:46:45 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61765&oldid=61764 * A * (-15) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 14:47:41 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61766&oldid=61765 * A * (+4) grm 14:50:20 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61767&oldid=61766 * A * (-9) Combine the tips into 9 tips again 14:53:36 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61768&oldid=61744 * A * (+75) Add my joke post again 14:54:52 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61769&oldid=61768 * A * (+30) Improve my post 14:56:13 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61770&oldid=61769 * A * (+18) I am now sure on the subset. 14:58:54 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61771&oldid=61770 * A * (+56) Add details 14:59:59 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61772&oldid=61771 * A * (+11) More details 15:00:51 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61773&oldid=61772 * A * (-30) Sorry for making too many edits... 15:09:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:12:28 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:21:28 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:21:54 -!- MDude has joined. 15:33:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:24 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:06:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:30:28 -!- lynn_ has joined. 16:33:13 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:18:58 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:24:11 I really hope the firefox people learn form this that their system shouldn't be fail-deadly 17:28:33 shachaf: It's a C11 feature, not a C99 feature. 17:28:43 (_Generic, I mean.) 17:29:38 was a C99 feature, but there was no way to do similar things yourself. 17:30:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:22 orin: ah, hope. 17:31:43 orin: I wish they do that. But I have little hope :P 17:33:06 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:34:28 tg math 17:35:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:50:43 fizzie: actually, while you can't do something as general as _Generic, I think you can do something similar to the tgmath macros, by checking the sizeof of the arguments 17:54:02 fizzie: Ooops, right. 17:54:12 fizzie: I meant "the new one". 17:55:23 sizeof doesn't evaluate its arguments, so you don't get double evaluation 18:01:58 I guess, but of course there's no guarantee that sizeof (float) != sizeof (double). 18:03:48 I defined a numof() macro that only works on arrays by doing a static assert on __builtin_types_compatible_p 18:03:58 Is that possible in non-__GNUC__? 18:04:29 I remember that being discussed, but I don't remember if anyone had any solution. 18:04:32 fizzie: sure, it won't be exactly the same, because on systems where double and long double are both 8 byte long, you can't distinguish them, so you can't return the right type 18:04:41 but it would be something similar, and practically usable 18:08:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:10:16 fizzie: on platforms where double and long double are the same size, such as x86_64 windows, they also have the same representation 18:11:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:12:12 shachaf: Reviewing the logs, I don't think anyone came up with a non-__GNUC__ solution. The Linux kernel ARRAY_SIZE uses a GNU solution too. 18:12:16 (Basically __builtin_types_compatible_p(typeof(a), typeof(&a[0])).) 18:12:45 Logs where I asked that or someone else did? 18:13:41 I don't remember discussing this question. 18:14:06 I used typeof(a), typeof(&a[0]) at first, but now I'm using (__builtin_types_compatible_p(__typeof(*(a))[], __typeof(a))) 18:14:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:16:27 Man, my macros #define Case break; case and #define Default break; default are TG. 18:19:10 right up there with #define BEGIN { 18:20:43 No way, that one is terrible. 18:22:12 Another good macro is #define Struct(name) typedef struct name name; struct name 18:23:05 Speaking of C99, is it just me [non-rude version?] or does code like foo(&(Type){...}); look pretty sketchy? 18:23:54 shachaf: I think aggregate constructors look fine 18:24:45 in fact I think we should have used that syntax for anonymous inner functions, where Type is a function type with the argument names significant, and the braces contain a function body instead of a list of initializers 18:24:46 It's just the address-of thing. 18:30:04 [ 12.2*289.42 18:30:05 b_jonas: 3530.92 18:52:57 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 18:55:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:55:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 18:59:44 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61774&oldid=61494 * Helen * (+525) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ Problem with Bool Row proof? 19:00:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61775&oldid=61774 * Helen * (+521) /* Computational class */ Problem with Bool Row proof 19:17:16 shachaf: It was on ##c. 19:17:51 Also: #define ever (;;) 19:18:16 Those things are jokes. 19:18:26 Whereas the things I'm using are actually useful. 19:19:07 Did you know that Java's adding a new kind of switch, where the syntax is `case -> expression` which has an implicit break. 19:19:16 (And the whole switch can be used as an expression.) 19:20:35 String s = switch (x) { case 4 -> "yay"; default -> "sad :("; }; 19:21:21 I didn't. 19:21:50 It's still just a JEP, so maybe "is adding" is a bit of an exaggeration. 19:22:39 Man, garbage collection is kind of scow. 19:22:47 https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/354 19:23:07 (A slightly different form -- https://openjdk.java.net/jeps/325 -- was already available as a preview feature in Java... 12?) 19:23:18 The newest proposal uses "break-with" as a hyphenated keyword. 19:28:12 fizzie: I think C and C++ chose the right solution given that we're stuck with switch/break anyway: make compilers give a warning on fallthrough after a statement other than a case label, and define a standard attribute instead of magic comments to denote intentional fallthrough 19:28:23 or a standard attribute in addition to magic comments 19:34:08 -!- AnotherTest_ has joined. 19:38:29 -!- danieljabailey_ has joined. 19:39:24 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:39:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:39:25 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:39:26 -!- AnotherTest_ has changed nick to AnotherTest. 19:40:02 -!- imode has joined. 19:41:23 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:49:15 -!- joast has joined. 20:03:25 also, I'm going to western Netherlands for vacation the next week 20:15:16 b_jonas: what's this attribute? 20:15:58 magic comments are bad 20:17:32 __attribute__((fallthrough)); 20:17:50 But I just have #define OrCase case and #define OrDefault default 20:17:56 And then I ban "case" and "default" from the code. 20:18:10 what does that accomplish? 20:18:24 Well, it goes with #define Case break; case and #define Default break; default that I mentioned before. 20:18:35 oh lol 20:18:49 that's nasty 20:18:50 Then you can just write switch (x) { Case 1: foo(); Case 2: OrCase 3: bar(); Default: vaz(); } 20:18:50 I like it 20:21:08 heh 20:31:27 "description = Website https://esolangs.org/ security certificate expires soon (2.589470476999998e+06 seconds)." 20:31:30 I don't know if the formatting of these alerts is the best, readability-wise. 20:32:02 kmc: [[fallthrough]] 20:32:16 lol 20:33:39 I'm going to be 1,000,000,000 seconds old this Halloween 20:34:38 happy birthgigasecond then 20:34:43 unfortunately I don't remember exactly when I was born, I think about 2 AM central time? 20:35:09 tick tock 20:35:18 yep 20:35:37 and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you... 20:35:41 or a billion seconds as the case may be 20:35:47 yeah 20:35:51 I want to be younger 20:37:00 i've been married for about 115,000,000 seconds 20:37:03 b_jonas: how old are you? 20:37:57 33 20:38:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:38:04 ah 20:38:07 so you're a little older than me 20:38:10 yes 20:39:00 i guess I just said how old I am, but "31 years" may be a more useful measurement for most 20:40:12 why do you want to be younger? 20:40:25 Relatively soon I'll've been married for 400000000 seconds, is that something people usually celebrate? 20:40:33 my body was much healthier ten years ago 20:40:47 and lighter and stronger and more flexible 20:41:01 and had a better lung capacity 20:41:04 fizzie: no, but you could! and congratulations 20:41:07 b_jonas: yeah 20:41:11 getting old sucks physically 20:41:24 in the long run we're all falling apart 20:41:30 but I'm in much better health now than I was a year or two years ago 20:41:33 physically and mentally 20:41:46 yeah, but I want to fall apart a thousand times slower 20:41:51 I wish I had transitioned earlier, but that's life 20:42:13 it's never too late really, it's just that I have a lot of bad feelings to deal with from that period of putting it off :( 20:42:48 In Finland (and in the Netherlands, and probably a few other places) 12.5 years is one of the common celebration milestones, that's pretty close to 400 megaseconds. 20:43:03 hm, why's that 20:43:06 half of 25? 20:43:10 I guess. 20:43:13 how does one celebrate? 20:43:21 It's 12.5 years for copper, 25 for silver and 50 for gold. 20:43:25 ok 20:43:35 why celebrate the progress of time. 20:43:49 And then 1..15, 20, 25, ..., 70, 80 have their own associated labels that I can't possibly remember. 20:43:56 Except 1 is paper. 20:44:01 I know 1 is paper 20:44:09 I don't think I got my wife any paper, but maybe 20:44:30 I remember we went out for okonomiyaki 20:44:48 fizzie: I think 33 years is a good milestone 20:45:20 I got her a gift certificate for a bookstore, I guess that counts 20:45:49 apparently 4th is "Fruit & Flowers, or Linen & Silk" 20:45:52 fizzie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_anniversary 20:45:56 i like those things 20:46:32 There's regional variation in these. The Finnish list has ceramic on 4th. 20:46:49 . o O ( is 80 uranium because of the inevitable decay... ) 20:46:51 I don't think you should take those lists seriously 20:46:53 anyway perhaps these are silly 20:46:56 yes :P 20:47:01 unless of course your spouse takes them seriously 20:47:23 which year is ham radio equipment 20:47:48 which year is a new washing machine? 20:47:50 In the link b_jonas posted, the "modern list" has "Appliances (electrical)" on 4th too. 20:49:30 * kmc woke up at 02:30 (home timezone) today :( 20:49:42 I think i'll go home and nap 20:49:43 ttyl! <3 21:02:37 -!- aloril_ has joined. 21:05:23 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:10:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:54:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:15:53 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:27:11 -!- tromp has joined. 22:31:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:32:05 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:40:40 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61776&oldid=61773 * JonoCode9374 * (+162) hmmm 22:56:49 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:00:01 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:00:20 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 23:06:30 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:06:49 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 23:26:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:30:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:31:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:47:58 I got my voting material... 40 parties to choose from. Crazy. 23:48:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:48:18 (that's for the upcoming EU election) 23:53:28 -!- weston has joined. 23:54:31 * oerjan skipped ahead to the final mention of "fermi paradox" so now has read the end of SM's current arc. those must be some of the least fearsome dinosaurs ever! 23:55:10 now i just have to decide whether to read the rest of the archive O_o 23:55:15 !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust 23:55:16 weston.g9500: points 0.07, score 20.25, rank 19/47 23:55:56 !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust 23:55:57 weston.g9500: points 0.07, score 20.25, rank 19/47 23:56:05 !ztest g9501 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/27647ce73885331e31f23d967622c8bc50a3ab76/g9500.bfjoust 23:56:06 weston.g9501: points 0.07, score 20.25, rank 19/47 23:56:25 !ztest g9500 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/westonal/aac05cc336dfa2bf9a86660b8f9ae7cc/raw/8ea8bb440f350ab2fd5a54a7e76e91fd795eee56/g9500.bfjoust 23:56:25 weston.g9500: points 3.45, score 23.48, rank 14/47 23:58:20 oerjan.hm: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 2019-05-07: 00:00:31 weston: !ztest can be done in private (!zjoust always announces) 00:01:16 Gah, all those underscores. 00:02:32 i think it's at maximal length now... 00:03:24 maybe it's actually sending many more and those just get cut off :P 00:03:32 Probably. And despite a public holiday over here, I didn't make any progress at the reimplementation work. :/ 00:04:48 at some point it should get refused due to exceeding line length 00:09:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:11:05 oerjan: there are far worse ways to waste one's time :) 00:11:14 Yes, that's kind of concerning. Because I don't think it will actually restart properly. 00:11:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 00:20:23 Hey, sorry! I assumed it was private 00:21:19 New to IRC, how do I do private? 00:21:49 Usually "/query zemhill_______" opens a private window. 00:22:00 (I think it does in the webchat as well.) 00:22:17 seems to, thanks 00:29:29 [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61777&oldid=61660 * Oerjan * (-13) Partial revert to compiler: I don't think it makes sense to consider self-interpreters bootstrapping, because then you need to keep another implementation around to run it even after the "bootstrap". 00:30:57 fizzie: in other news, my change to the history page titles still doesn't seem to have taken effect. 00:32:42 oerjan: the dinosaurs aren't scary by themselves, it's what they may evolve into that is the stuff of nightmares :) 00:33:09 anyway, that was the idea that I liked and still like a lot. 00:33:34 [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61778&oldid=61777 * Oerjan * (+68) Elaborate a bit more 00:34:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:35:03 . o O ( i take it int-e doesn't like birds ) 00:36:10 They are freaks of nature. :P 00:37:01 (Of course this is basically true of any species whatsoever.) 00:37:17 * int-e is off to bed. 00:40:44 [[(PTM)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61779&oldid=61712 * Oerjan * (-5) /* Links & Further reading */ Standard header 00:57:34 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:57:45 -!- imode has joined. 01:09:43 -!- tromp has joined. 01:10:27 -!- Melvar has joined. 01:13:28 -!- adu has joined. 01:14:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:54:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:21 -!- sprocklem has joined. 03:21:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:25:24 -!- weston has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:25:53 -!- westonian has joined. 03:28:25 -!- westonian has quit (Client Quit). 03:29:02 -!- westonian has joined. 03:56:04 whoa, Windows is replacing WSL with actual Linux. 05:06:26 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 05:09:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:09:34 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:19:13 -!- adu has joined. 05:51:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:55:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:57:20 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:58:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:28:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:33:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:34:37 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:42:52 -!- yaewa has joined. 06:44:10 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:49:12 -!- moei has joined. 06:51:54 -!- yaewa has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:52:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:59:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:31:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:38:54 -!- tromp has joined. 08:18:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:20:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:21:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:54:49 -!- tromp has joined. 08:59:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:07:39 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:08:40 -!- hakatashi has joined. 09:35:09 -!- tromp has joined. 09:48:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:51:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:23:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:25:07 -!- nfd has joined. 10:25:38 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:27:35 [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61780&oldid=59205 * A * (+347) Put feature languages into this timeline (they are definitely important) 10:33:03 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61781&oldid=61767 * A * (+42) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 10:39:27 [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61782&oldid=61411 * A * (+145) Add an idea 10:50:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:54:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:47:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:49:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:49:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:51:00 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:24:37 https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) 12:25:03 also.. so cold. 12:25:21 @metar lowi 12:25:21 LOWI 071220Z 15006KT 100V210 CAVOK 12/M01 Q1016 NOSIG 12:26:24 (it's funny; the dewpoint estimates tend to differ by about one degree despite the measurements coming from the same place.) 12:34:05 @metar egsc 12:34:05 EGSC 071220Z 19007KT 9999 FEW040 BKN057CB 12/02 Q1014 12:35:39 Not too warm here either :( 12:59:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61783&oldid=61775 * A * (-1620) Thanks for the comments, I undo my edits of Bool Row. 13:00:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61784&oldid=61783 * A * (-520) And delete Bool Row. 13:00:38 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:03:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:09:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61785&oldid=61784 * A * (+283) Eliminate some computational models (as it is not clear whether it is Turing-complete) 13:11:22 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61786&oldid=61295 * A * (+35) Even though it is unclear whether bitch is Turing-complete, it is clear that it is at least a finite-state automata. 13:12:41 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61787&oldid=61785 * A * (+2) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:15:44 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61788&oldid=61787 * A * (+106) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:21:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61789&oldid=61788 * A * (+11) 13:24:18 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61790&oldid=61789 * A * (+67) Add a subtitle(I can't find where it is) 13:27:04 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61791&oldid=61790 * A * (+227) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push down automaton */ 13:42:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61792&oldid=61791 * A * (+544) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */ 13:43:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61793&oldid=61792 * A * (+15) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:44:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61794&oldid=61793 * A * (+90) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:48:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61795&oldid=61794 * A * (+299) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */ 13:49:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:50:06 [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61796&oldid=60518 * A * (-2) Reduce the complexity of Bucket 13:51:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:56:48 [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61797&oldid=61796 * A * (-25) 14:01:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:05:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61798&oldid=61795 * A * (+0) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:25:17 [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61799&oldid=49643 * A * (+2813) /* Hello, World! */ 14:25:38 [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61800&oldid=61799 * A * (-39) It is usable for computing 14:26:50 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61801&oldid=61798 * A * (-24) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:27:21 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61802&oldid=61801 * A * (+74) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:27:59 -!- Cale has joined. 14:30:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61803&oldid=61802 * A * (-83) /* Trivial proofs */ 14:31:56 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61804&oldid=61803 * A * (+91) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:39:33 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61805&oldid=61804 * A * (+809) We are going too far for proving the TC-ness of bitch. 14:41:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61806&oldid=61805 * A * (+10) minor edit 14:41:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61807&oldid=61786 * A * (-35) Undo revision of A 14:42:33 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61808&oldid=61806 * A * (+10) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */ 14:44:48 -!- imode has joined. 14:46:53 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61809&oldid=61808 * A * (+33) /* What bitch surpasses */ 14:47:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61810&oldid=61809 * A * (-849) Already irrelevant to proving TC-ness 14:55:38 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61811&oldid=61810 * A * (-446) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 14:58:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61812&oldid=61811 * A * (+12) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 15:05:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:07:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:27:20 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:43:15 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:44:38 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:47:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:50:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:08:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:22:10 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 16:26:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:31:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:33:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:34:13 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:36:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:41:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:54 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:48:49 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 16:49:14 -!- sftp has joined. 17:48:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:51:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:13:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:16:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:16:43 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:23:27 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:30:15 looks like I successfully lit a fircracker under someone's butt at firefox 18:31:11 and convinced them that no, having addons just suddenly stop working on un-updated computers, isn't valid behaviour 18:32:33 mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users 18:32:39 or about open source 18:34:00 A related issue is the potential censorship of add-ons; Mozilla Foundations could be legally or culturally inhibited from signing otherwise fine add-ons 18:34:17 Due to its location in California, USA 18:34:55 But I'm unaware of any extant examples of this problem 18:56:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:00:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:03:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:06:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:33:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:33 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:49:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:50:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:52:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:03:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:05:14 orin: I think even just "it stops working by accident" is a pretty valid complaint, and one that came up recently, so. :) 20:21:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:21:43 pikhq: the current date for the next addon mageddon is in 2025 20:47:06 re previous conversation, my wife reminded me of another way to choose an anniversary gift 20:47:42 which is, think of a situation that caused relationship friction in the past year, and buy an item to prevent that 20:47:53 and that's how I got an extension cord for my anniversary 20:49:44 kmc: nice. I am wary of that particular one, and have got extra extension cords and cables 20:49:51 but yeah, in general that should work well 20:50:01 I want a new electric toothbrush though 20:50:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:52:32 one can never have too many spare extension cables and phone chargers 20:53:14 yeah 20:53:35 especially since they break compatibility every five yeras 20:54:01 not for the extension cords, luckily 20:54:18 those just have their cables broken or the surge protector broken 21:01:22 I'm still using micro usb 21:01:53 the issue before is that we had some short cords. and a huge (50 foot) heavy duty cord that was thick and unwieldy 21:02:00 and nothing in between 21:02:08 kmc: yeah, there's that too 21:02:19 nothing between 0.3 m and 2 m 21:02:40 but I can deal with the 2m cables using cable ties 21:05:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:14:39 I feel appreciated: Brexit Party sent me a personal letter about how they're saving democracy. 21:14:59 "However you voted in 2016, we all care about democracy --" 21:18:33 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 21:20:08 how do you save democracy by removing accountability from the government? 21:21:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:34:48 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:37:40 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:37:47 -!- clog has joined. 21:41:05 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:44:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:50:55 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:54:43 lol 22:01:59 kmc: hm, that's not a bad gift idea 22:02:35 she went to the hardware store and browsed until something jogged her memory of a conflict 22:04:10 I should remember that one for later 22:04:29 I mean, the 'something to prevent some recent friction' scheme idea, not specifically extension cord :p 22:04:32 lol 22:05:18 hello 22:05:44 hi 22:07:51 how would you implement a language based on a list of sentences and the semantics is order independent? 22:08:08 needs more detail. what form do the sentences have? 22:08:17 unification is one way. a logic language like prolog 22:08:23 or alloy 22:08:31 im thinking like a generalized baba is you 22:08:39 or Lingua::Romana::Perligata 22:08:42 rain1: you can make each sentence a top-level function definition 22:08:50 the sentences represent logical facts and the interpter derives more facts from them 22:08:53 or, like, a definition for a top level function or variable 22:09:04 j4cbo: how is that order independent? 22:09:17 seems like this falls under the general umbrella declarative programming 22:09:33 syntactical order independent 22:09:49 though you could also have an imperative language which works this way, if you have some rule for which sentence 'executes' first, such as the shortest one, or most specific according to some metric 22:10:11 or you can use statements, with a line label and explicitly writing the labels of next states 22:10:16 thus linking them 22:10:22 yeah 22:10:34 Baba Is You seems to have a pretty clear evaluation order, at least. 22:10:35 old basics are like that... you can enter the lines in any order 22:10:39 shachaf: how's it defined? 22:10:54 I mean, it's kind of complicated, but it seems like it exists. 22:10:58 did anyone write an AI to play BiY yet? 22:11:06 seems like it might discover some really interesting weird solutions 22:11:13 by order doesn't matter i mean that you can shuffle the list of sentences and it has the same semantics 22:11:27 yeah, I got that 22:11:37 or like one of those string replacement languages, one of those that are nondeterministic in which replacement rule is ran, so you have to chain them by states 22:13:09 mm 22:16:31 the AND and OR operators in first order logic are order-independent 22:16:40 so a logic solver might be a way to do it 22:17:57 but maybe formal logic is too strict 22:19:41 yes, if your program is a list of logical equations then it's order independent 22:19:46 and can be 'executed' with a SAT solver or something 22:19:50 but that also has limited power 22:19:59 especially if you don't include NOT (then you only have monotonic circuits) 22:20:09 monotonic circuits are an interesting complexity class 22:20:15 how limiting is that? I mostly worry about it being 'fragile' and failing almost all th etime 22:20:18 for low-complexity things 22:20:21 fragilehow so 22:20:36 well most logical formula are unsatisfiable 22:20:37 for basic boolean SAT, if there is a solution a SAT solver will eventually find it, or say there isn't one 22:20:45 it will never give up. never surrender. 22:20:52 (unless you put a time bound on it of course) 22:20:56 but you probably want some characters to move even if one of the others is up against a wall (or inside a wall) and cant move 22:21:07 also if it's unsatisfiable it can find an 'unsat core' of equations that make it unsatisfiable 22:21:10 sure 22:21:18 wow the unsat core sounds perfect 22:21:56 there are lots of sat solvers, and competitions and such 22:22:00 but minisat is a good place to start 22:22:06 also if yo uhaven't seen it 22:22:11 you should really check out http://alloy.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/index.html 22:22:13 i have implemented a sat solver before 22:22:20 awesome 22:22:31 alloy is SAT based but adds a rich relational algebra on top of it 22:23:37 /* Defines what eats what and the farmer is not around. */ 22:23:39 fact { eats = Fox->Chicken + Chicken->Grain} 22:23:55 ah yes 22:24:00 this is cool 22:24:00 classic logic puzzle :) 22:29:05 SAT solvers are TG. 22:29:16 I want to write one so I understand all the fancy algorithms they use. 22:29:39 yeah 22:29:41 so did i 22:29:41 Like CDCL and 2-watched-literal. 22:29:43 but so many projects 22:31:06 Do you like dancing links? 22:31:11 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 22:31:18 i think so 22:31:21 but I forgot how it works 22:33:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:38:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:39:56 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:40:58 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:43:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:04:56 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:11:18 -!- brandonson has joined. 23:15:06 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 23:18:14 its just depth first search, but implemented really efficiently i think 23:18:46 for the specific problem of exact cover, cause of the double linked lists 23:19:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:30:28 -!- tromp has joined. 23:31:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:33:16 -!- olsner has joined. 23:33:48 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:35:04 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 23:35:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:36:28 https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) <-- i don't get it. 23:38:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:39:45 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:43:32 mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users <-- you know, i occasionally try to consider which browser i'll eventually switch to when i have to give up IE completely, and the main impression i seem to get about the major contenders is "they're all evil". 23:44:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:45:06 web browsers are scow 23:45:35 i'm giving up on the internet 23:45:38 ham radio for life 23:46:48 `` thanks Thunderbird # this was sort of anticlimactic 23:46:48 Thanks, Thunderbird. Thunderbird. 23:46:59 how is the web such a terrible platform imo 23:47:18 shachaf: because commercial companies were allowed to use it hth 23:47:21 same reason humans are so terrible 23:47:24 it evolved, it was not designed 23:47:34 mammals are p. great 23:47:41 and humans are way up there 23:47:49 not above cats obviously, but p. high 23:48:47 * kmc is a mammal 23:48:52 lucky 23:49:17 i particularly like the feature of mammals where they're conscious entities with brains and personalities and things 23:49:42 -!- kmc has left. 23:49:49 whoa 23:49:56 good scaring shachaf 23:49:59 i wonder why kmc left 23:50:21 i think we depressed her 23:50:27 oh, probably took it as a guilt-trip-for-eating-meat thing 23:50:34 which i wasn't even thinking of 23:50:40 sigh 23:51:00 that sounds like leaping to conclusions unless she's done that before 23:51:19 we have had interactions like that in the past 23:51:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61813&oldid=61812 * Salpynx * (+3412) Conjecture that bitch is NOT TC, and a specific, simpler, bit copy challenge 23:52:18 i wonder if they'll converge to some actual answer on Bitch's computational class. i'm avoiding getting involved. 23:52:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61814&oldid=61813 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ crucial typo fix! 23:53:10 anyway what i said goes for s/mammals/humans/ too 23:53:13 although it's a bit shame no one told them about ais523's idea. 23:53:29 i'm just marveling at the universe being so odd 23:55:04 it seems to me that the logical end point of vegetarianism is that we have to get our brains uploaded to computers so we can stop hurting living beings simply by existing. 23:55:18 including, in the extreme, our own body cells. 23:55:35 not hurting living beings simply by existing sounds p. good to me 23:55:59 but i don't care about hurting my own body cells very much 23:56:12 well the question is whether _they_ care. 23:56:41 it's a pretty despotic regime. 23:57:05 Whose question? 23:57:31 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:57:43 the moral question. 23:57:50 or ethical 23:58:42 it might eventually turn out elementary particles are conscious, in which case the ethics are pretty screwed. 23:58:50 Reminds me of Smullyan: «I must tell you that on another occasion, my mother wanted me to do something which I didn't want to do. When I told her that I wouldn't do it, and she told me that I was being selfish, I said, "Mother, whose sake do you want me to be unselfish?"» 23:59:53 poking my head in here to ask for feedback on whether I have made any obvious mistakes with my attempt on talk:bitch to settle the endless TC quest 2019-05-08: 00:00:20 argh 00:01:02 salpynx: i just said above that i way avoiding getting involved :P 00:01:05 *was 00:01:26 although ais523 had an idea that maybe it might work to simulate a 1d CA 00:02:46 that talk page is a mess 00:02:49 it doesn't feel like a bad language, but the debate is tiring. It shouldn't be that hard to put an end to, but I feel my ability to judge (or think straight) has been affected by trying to follow it 00:03:26 TuxCrafting had the most coherent arguments, but they are now struck through 00:04:44 I don't think the language can copy a single bit from one mem location to another, without destroying stored data, and that prevents any tc mechanism. 00:06:20 I tried to set out my thoughts in a way that any errors should be easy to spot 00:08:52 [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61815&oldid=61800 * Oerjan * (+39) Undo revision 61800 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (Usable for programming is a higher bar than just outputting fixed strings.) 00:10:08 TIL 'cat' is usable for programming 00:11:05 rdococ: um i'm saying the opposite 00:13:01 are there any programming languages that can detect sarcasm? 00:14:39 I got it, but I'm not a programming language. 00:14:58 i also got the sarcasm, but the target was ambiguous. 00:15:30 I suppose I'm occasionally usable for programming though 00:16:45 heh, in fact that's what I should be doing now, rather than worrying about bitch 00:18:59 salpynx: i don't think your argument holds, because you're assuming that to be TC, Bitch has to be able to do a _specific_ calculation on the accumulator. 00:19:28 interesting language name 00:20:25 for example, iirc it is a known theorem that a 2-register minsky machine cannot compute the square of one of its registers. 00:21:17 but this doesn't matter, because the TC proof uses a data encoding that never requires doing that. 00:21:36 oerjan: I didn't go into that detail, but I believe the copy is a stand in for _any_ operation which takes two operands (of any size) from memory and performs an operation without destroying other parts of the memory. An OR or AND would work equally to disprove what I claim 00:26:44 -!- tromp has joined. 00:31:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:35:08 In the argument, 'copy' was not meant to be a special operation, just a specific instance to represent the generic case of an operation with 2 operands. I think my argument applies to any operation that actually uses two bits from memory. Operations taking one bit from memory and the other from user input or code are fine, and all the other code examples I can follow only do that, which is what a PDA can do. 00:40:11 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:46:22 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:47:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 00:49:09 i cannot get from the spec how chaining in Bitch is actually supposed to work. and my brain refuses to try to read the implementation. 00:51:07 although the only _useful_ interpretation is that op1 op2 number will calculate acc op1 (acc op2 number) where acc is the original value in both cases, and then only store the final result. 00:51:28 oerjan: thanks for getting your hands this dirty anyway -- I feel like I can't get much further and was hoping A or some other expert in the language would take on the challenge and prove me wrong. 00:52:36 oerjan: Just knowing I haven't made any blindingly obvious errors is helpful 00:53:10 i don't understand Bitch either, is what i'm saying. 00:54:40 the spec is not stating some important assumptions, so i might be guessing wrong and that puts me off thinking more about it. 00:56:24 fair enough, I think my challenge is clear enough though. If someone invested in proving TC can show me an algorithm that can copy a bit, I'll understand it enough to help with that. If they can't, I'm calling it a PDA 00:57:47 My getting invested in proving not-TC was probably a mistake, so I appreciate you not wanting to get in further 01:04:17 [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61816&oldid=56544 * A * (+159) Add specification, as usability is more than printing a message. 01:17:02 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 01:18:35 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:31:24 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:34:09 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 01:45:44 -!- gerzytet has joined. 01:58:29 -!- kmc has joined. 02:14:53 -!- tromp has joined. 02:19:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:43:29 -!- sombrero has joined. 03:51:11 Pardon the interruption, but probably in the near future will be necessary a eso-AI (esoteric artifitial intelligence) to counteract the immense productivity of a typical AI, or also, to counteract AIs whose primary purpose is self-preservation rather exploration, What is your take on this? 03:53:21 I don't know what those words mean. 03:54:48 culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism? i like the way you think 03:56:12 fungot, how do you feel about culture jamming artificial superintelligence with postmodernism? 03:56:13 Hooloovo0: your professor wants the representation of a macro could do that if you need anything done, you have 04:18:09 what a direction has taken the incursion, a dada esoteric superintelligence LOL 04:22:46 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:34:14 -!- sombrero has quit (Quit: Page closed). 06:01:13 fungot: when the going gets weird, the weird turn what? 06:01:13 kmc: that was an actual command), is a " hyphen-minus" 06:24:50 -!- imode has joined. 07:05:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:30:59 -!- tromp has joined. 07:31:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:03:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:18:50 -!- tromp has joined. 08:33:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:27:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:56:10 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:38:38 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61817&oldid=61814 * A * (-11) This can be used as an argument against TC-ness. Remove the deletion line 10:39:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61818&oldid=61817 * A * (-42) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */ 10:42:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:44:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61819&oldid=61818 * A * (+229) Closed challenge (already done by Helen) 10:47:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61820&oldid=61819 * A * (+18) grm 10:49:29 -!- danieljabailey_ has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 10:51:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61821&oldid=61820 * A * (+228) Add description 11:03:58 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61822&oldid=61821 * A * (+119) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:04:06 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61823&oldid=61603 * Void * (+5) /* Jumping processes */ 11:08:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61824&oldid=61822 * A * (+205) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:14:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61825&oldid=61824 * A * (+459) Extend my counter-arguement 11:16:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61826&oldid=61825 * A * (+162) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:16:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:18:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61827&oldid=61826 * A * (-47) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:23:16 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61828&oldid=61823 * Void * (+230) /* Evolving programs */ 11:23:54 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61829&oldid=61827 * A * (+116) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:29:02 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61830&oldid=61829 * A * (+152) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:30:43 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61831&oldid=61830 * A * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:31:45 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61832&oldid=61828 * Void * (+128) /* Implementations */ 11:37:18 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61833&oldid=61831 * A * (+126) grm, and mixed up two conjectures 11:47:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61834&oldid=61833 * A * (+16) Make my argument harder to read 11:48:32 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61835&oldid=61834 * A * (-7) /* Counter-arguments */ 11:54:41 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61836&oldid=61835 * A * (+74) /* What bitch surpasses */ 11:56:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61837&oldid=61836 * A * (-12) /* Counter-arguments */ 12:04:08 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61838&oldid=61837 * A * (+114) /* Counter-arguments */ 12:09:11 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61839&oldid=61838 * Salpynx * (+1291) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 3rd attempt to save, but page keeps changing 12:25:02 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61840&oldid=61839 * A * (+8) /* Counter-arguments */ 12:38:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61841&oldid=61840 * A * (-1887) 12:58:00 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:11:10 [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61842&oldid=58702 * A * (+359) Ask a question that is quite hard to determine 13:25:00 [[User talk:Oerjan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61843&oldid=61842 * A * (+30) Tell where it is 13:34:29 [[Oneline]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61844&oldid=61517 * A * (+0) grm 13:36:19 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61845&oldid=61807 * Int-e * (+20) implementation: fix a bug (probably due to simplification of the github version). 13:37:21 the sad thing is I'm just looking at the code because the specification is so imprecise. 13:49:30 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:58:11 -!- moei has joined. 15:15:08 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61846&oldid=61845 * Int-e * (+370) add rot13 program 15:42:02 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:17:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:25:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 16:26:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:31:51 -!- user24 has joined. 16:33:32 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 17:10:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:10:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:19:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Alvarito056 * New user account 17:33:23 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61847&oldid=61709 * Alvarito056 * (+155) 17:36:39 -!- tromp has joined. 18:03:36 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61848&oldid=61847 * Simplemaker * (+272) 18:05:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:15:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:21:45 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: No route to host). 18:24:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:31:12 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Changing host). 18:31:12 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 18:31:12 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Changing host). 18:31:12 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 18:33:41 -!- tromp has joined. 18:37:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping 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First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:36:58 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:56:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:57:36 -!- rdococ has changed nick to dccoor. 23:02:35 -!- dccoor has changed nick to rdococ. 23:07:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:21:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61849&oldid=61841 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ fix another important typo, oops. 23:31:15 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:32:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:32:21 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:37:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:58:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2019-05-09: 00:14:51 -!- sleepnap has left. 00:16:52 https://reason.com/2019/05/08/denver-just-became-the-first-u-s-city-to-decriminalize-psychedelic-mushrooms 00:16:57 fungot: what do you think of that? 00:16:58 kmc: wtf are you doing programming?? :p) defining an api for graphics interfaces to c libraries ( yet) 00:31:13 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61850&oldid=61843 * Oerjan * (+1099) /* Turing completeness */ Answer 00:33:57 let's ask GPT-2 00:34:39 https://i.imgur.com/6wj8FB9.png 00:35:43 fungot: you're being replaced by robots 00:35:43 shachaf: is there on your cf if i may ask 00:43:54 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Odog8 * New user account 00:54:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:00:14 -!- adu has joined. 01:01:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 01:02:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:53:19 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:30:44 A's qn re human involvement has given me an idea for an appropriately joke TC variant of bitch: the User MUST act as an unbounded stack for the program. Output is PUSH, Input is POP. bitch handles one stack, and bitwise operations, the user is the other stack. 02:33:18 now I'm wondering if the entire language was a setup for this joke. bitch is TC when bitch is you. 02:33:37 (sorry baba) 02:34:27 hmm, that's the same computational class as Wiki Cyclic Tag I think 02:34:47 (TC if a human repeatedly gives enters the program's output back as input to the program, not otherwise) 02:35:22 Wiki Cyclic Tag's main issue is the lack of any sort of loop, so the human output→input copying is needed both to introduce a loop, and to retain state between loop iterations 03:09:22 interesting, I had heard of WIki Cyclic Tag but didn't realise it used that trick. I was thinking of the css + html "Turing completeness proof" that required user input to transition states, which I thought was controversial, but seems slightly different 03:10:43 hmm, maybe that is an equivalent trick, but more indirect 03:17:22 -!- tromp has joined. 03:21:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:01:12 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 04:02:39 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61851&oldid=61849 * A * (+293) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 04:03:06 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61852&oldid=61851 * A * (-26) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 04:03:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:04:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:27:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 04:46:03 NetHack is deprecating OS/2?! 05:05:21 -!- tromp has joined. 05:10:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:15:29 O_O 05:43:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61853&oldid=61852 * Int-e * (+1067) /* Not TC Conjecture [...] */ a solution 05:51:08 int-e: ok so chained instructions do _not_ modify the accumulator? that was the main thing i was confused about. 05:51:29 according to the Java interpreter, yes, they don't. 06:46:32 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:48:26 -!- user24 has joined. 06:53:37 -!- tromp has joined. 06:58:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:03:49 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 07:29:14 -!- tromp has joined. 07:42:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:49:15 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:07:01 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:07:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:31:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:36:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:37:06 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:46:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:05:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:11:22 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:13:20 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:21:39 -!- salpynx has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:36:37 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:49:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 10:53:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61854&oldid=61853 * A * (+218) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 10:54:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61855&oldid=61854 * A * (+38) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 10:55:17 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61856&oldid=61855 * A * (+66) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 10:55:56 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61857&oldid=61856 * A * (+5) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:00:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61858&oldid=61857 * A * (-521) /* What bitch surpasses */ 11:00:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61859&oldid=61858 * A * (-452) /* Proof that bitch is a non-looping finite state automaton */ 11:02:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:07:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:07:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61860&oldid=61859 * A * (-228) Make the talk page significantly shorter (leaving only the PDA proofs uncommented) 11:09:22 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61861&oldid=61860 * A * (-17270) *MWHAHAHA* delete the attempts of proving TC 11:09:41 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61862&oldid=61861 * A * (-492) /* Trivial proofs */ 11:10:45 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61863&oldid=61862 * A * (+4) /* Attempts at proving the computational class */ 11:11:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:15:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61864&oldid=61863 * A * (-372) 11:16:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61865&oldid=61864 * A * (-314) 11:17:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61866&oldid=61865 * A * (+2) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 11:18:42 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61867&oldid=61846 * A * (+548) Move the proof to the main page to delete another section in the talk page 11:19:11 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61868&oldid=61866 * A * (-637) Delete another section (it is definitely easy to follow now) 11:26:17 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61869&oldid=61868 * A * (-47) /* Some thoughts */ 11:31:20 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:32:48 [[Back]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61870 * A * (+429) Created page with "[[Back]] is a [[Fungeoid]] that can reflect back to the program when the program counter went out of bounds. ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" border="1" |- | \ | Reflect the di..." 11:33:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:33:47 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:37:18 [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61871&oldid=61870 * A * (+589) 11:38:56 [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61872&oldid=61871 * A * (+224) /* Syntax */ 11:40:10 [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61873&oldid=61872 * A * (+85) /* Reflection */ 11:44:02 [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61874&oldid=61873 * A * (+251) 11:44:26 [[Back]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61875&oldid=61874 * A * (-1) grm 11:56:47 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:57:49 ais523: you may have seen this article already: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 Alex Churchill, Stella Biderman, Austin Herrick "Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete" 12:00:48 [[Talk:StackFlow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61876&oldid=54283 * B jonas * (+139) 12:26:02 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:35:11 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61877&oldid=61848 * Odog8 * (+217) 12:36:56 [[User talk:Odog8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61878 * Odog8 * (+94) Created page with "Hey, I'm a dude learning Befunge & ><>. I'm working on a variety of dead community projects..." 12:47:03 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61879 * RealUndefined * (+455) Created page with "'''Turing Machine But Way Worse''' is a programming language made by a code golf user [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/83048/milkyway90 MilkyWay90]. It is based on Tu..." 12:47:22 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61880&oldid=61879 * RealUndefined * (+1) 12:48:32 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61881&oldid=61880 * RealUndefined * (+0) 12:48:41 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61882&oldid=61881 * RealUndefined * (-5) 12:49:12 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61883&oldid=61882 * RealUndefined * (+1) there 12:50:19 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61884&oldid=61883 * RealUndefined * (+54) add more categories 12:52:27 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61885&oldid=61584 * RealUndefined * (+35) /* T */ add TMBWW 12:59:58 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61886&oldid=61884 * RealUndefined * (+1727) 13:02:58 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 13:04:55 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61887&oldid=61886 * RealUndefined * (-29) 13:19:14 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 13:52:35 Sigh, A isn't very clever. 13:57:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:14:27 -!- imode has joined. 14:38:36 -!- xkapastel has joined. 15:21:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:45:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:00:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:24:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:39:04 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:56:47 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:07:50 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61888&oldid=61869 * Int-e * (+196) 17:28:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:35 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61889&oldid=61832 * Void * (+46) /* Implementations */ 17:41:59 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61890&oldid=61888 * Int-e * (+3033) Sketch: RAM 17:44:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61891&oldid=61890 * Int-e * (+637) Undo revision 61868 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) -- putting alleged proof back where it belongs 17:44:53 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61892&oldid=61867 * Int-e * (-548) Undo revision 61867 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) -- putting alleged proof back where it belongs 17:47:36 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61893&oldid=61891 * Int-e * (+301) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */ 17:54:48 ais523: hehe, their construction uses *both* Rotlung Reanimator and Xathrid Necromancer 17:59:21 wtf 18:03:18 they say they use Cleansing Beam to put +1/+1 counters, but that makes no sense, Cleansing Beam doesn't do that 18:04:54 their construction spans multiple turns, a few turns per each step of the simulated machine. we figured that wasn't practical. their trick for that is Wild Evocation 18:05:00 `card-by-name Wild Evocation 18:05:01 Wild Evocation \ 5R \ Enchantment \ At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player reveals a card at random from their hand. If it's a land card, the player puts it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, the player casts it without paying its mana cost if able. \ M11-R 18:05:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:07:34 `card-by-name Choke 18:07:35 Choke \ 2G \ Enchantment \ Islands don't untap during their controllers' untap steps. \ TE-U, 8ED-U, MPS_AKH-S \ \ Choked Estuary \ Land \ As Choked Estuary enters the battlefield, you may reveal an Island or Swamp card from your hand. If you don't, Choked Estuary enters the battlefield tapped. \ {T}: Add {U} or {B}. \ SOI-R 18:07:46 ^ what the heck kind of unbalanced card is that? 18:07:56 where's the cumulative upkeep? 18:13:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 18:18:42 ah no 18:18:46 Cleansing Beam is right 18:18:51 they explain how so later 18:20:02 the damage is replaced by Vigor, one of the incarnations from Lorwyn 19:24:22 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61894&oldid=61893 * Helen * (+1205) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ The conjecture is false 19:24:44 bitch is you 19:24:53 fungot is love 19:24:54 kmc: call by name/ call by value. ( you forgot what it was 19:25:22 love is empty, love is defeat, love is win 19:29:46 -!- imode has joined. 19:41:30 love is scow 19:42:06 love is love 19:48:40 rain1: I am coincidentally wearing a shirt which says exactly that! https://i.imgur.com/0M29zns.jpg 19:48:53 it is one of the gayer shirts I own 19:49:03 wow!! 19:49:10 nice one 19:49:28 ty 19:51:35 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:51:38 oh nice 19:52:28 ty 19:53:22 other rather gay shirts https://imgur.com/a/S3ZfJll 19:53:47 * kmc will take any excuse to post selfies, which is a bit of a departure from hating nearly every photo of her for the first ~30 years of life 20:18:10 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:30:14 ais523: anyway, if you haven't yet seen that article, I recommend that you take a look 20:50:25 Oh, A had deleted a lot of things from that talk page... not limited to their own contributions. :-( 20:53:59 also, it's time for a new o now. 20:56:29 oh hey, look at that 20:56:36 `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2789913/good-question/ 20:56:37 ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2789913/good-question/: b_jonas 20:56:54 . o O ( what's the point in singleton lists ) 20:58:30 int-e: (1) without such a list, two people who would want a list for the same thing each wouldn't be able to guess that there's another person who wants such a list, and (2) people can grep for it in the logs or have their irc client ping them even if their nickname isn't added 20:58:48 or they can, you know, just read the channel 20:59:25 also lets me advertise good comics, same as larger lists 21:00:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:10:09 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:10:34 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61895&oldid=61894 * Int-e * (+303) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ comment on deleted section... 22:33:33 -!- tromp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:34:09 -!- tromp has joined. 23:03:47 -!- b_jonas has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:30:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:34:19 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:34:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:50:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:51:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 2019-05-10: 00:04:18 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61896&oldid=61887 * Oerjan * (+5) wikify a little bit 00:05:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61897&oldid=61895 * Salpynx * (+589) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Int-e completed the challenge, thank you, and well done! 00:09:32 [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61898&oldid=39447 * Odog8 * (+64) /* Testing... 1221121? */ new section 00:09:52 [[Talk:ND]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61899&oldid=61898 * Odog8 * (-64) /* Testing... 1221121? */ 00:16:23 fizzie: as i give up trying to follow today's development on Talk:Bitch, i'd like to officially complain that mediawiki's default diff sucks supernova-sized balls hth 00:17:12 `owrjan 00:17:14 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 00:17:29 `swrjan s/Noah/mediawiki's default diff/ 00:17:31 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. 00:18:08 i think that ruins the pun hth 00:18:08 oerjan: Is there a better diff? 00:18:28 I think I've heard of WikEdDiff. 00:18:56 that's what i use on wikipedia (although it has problems which huge changes). 00:19:01 `swrjan s/ark/arkup/ 00:19:03 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it. 00:19:04 (in my browser at least. 00:19:16 `? owrjan 00:19:17 owrjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:21:12 `grWp twin 00:21:14 ​*:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☆:Twinkle, twinkle, little star! \ ☾_:☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ boorjan:boorjan is oerjan's uneducated twin. \ c#:C Pound is Java's good twin. \ myname:myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? He is Perl's evil twin brother. \ orin:orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the 00:21:30 `learn owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. 00:21:32 Learned 'owrjan': owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. 00:21:40 `2 grWp twin 00:21:41 2/3:other side of the international date line. \ örjan:Örjan is the diæresed twin. He will punctuate your vöẅëls, and maybe a few other unsuspecting letters. \ ørjan:Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. \ owrjan:owrjan is oerjan's wise twin. \ pico:pico is the useless twin of nano. \ sewerjan:sewerjan is oerjan's extremely poor twin. \ t 00:21:49 oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive... https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61860 and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bitch&oldid=61861 stood out to me (the latter reads: *MWHAHAHA* delete the attempts of proving TC) 00:22:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61900&oldid=61897 * Salpynx * (+1814) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ response to Helen, with my attempt and using cell load structure 00:22:27 `n 00:22:28 3/3:int-e:twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense. \ typoerjan:typoerjan is oerjan's clumsy twin. \ אrjan:אrjan is oerjan's first uncountable twin. He's inconsistent with the ZFC axioms. 00:22:35 What I don't know, though, is whether A and Helen are communicating by other channel. 00:23:09 Who needs another channel when you can edit the wiki for every message? 00:23:14 . o O ( prime twins and secondary twins ) 00:23:30 shachaf: well if you erase other people's contributions... 00:23:42 Is this a bug in the line breaking code, by the way? 00:23:52 Line 2 ended in t and line 3 started with i 00:23:54 `? twint-e 00:23:55 twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense. 00:23:57 Where's the w? 00:24:20 `` n 2 | tail -c 20 00:24:21 ely poor twin. \ tw 00:24:28 Aha, the line was cut off. 00:24:36 Did a hostname change or something? 00:24:47 `cbt spout 00:24:47 cat: bin/spout: No such file or directory 00:24:53 `cbt sport 00:24:53 cat "${2:-/dev/stdin}" >tmp/spout.raw; distort tmp/spout.raw | spore "${1-1}" 00:24:58 `cbt distort 00:24:59 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 460 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 01234566789; done 00:25:40 1/3:01234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123 00:25:42 `n 00:25:43 2/3:56678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667890123456678901234566789012345667 00:26:09 `sled bin/distort//s/460/459/ 00:26:11 bin/distort//#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N = 459 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ s = len(data) \ mw = len(str(2*s/N))-1 \ mw += s > ((N-2)*9-18*mw+1)*((10**mw-1)/9)-mw \ p=0 \ i=1 \ while (p heh... 66 00:26:17 `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done 00:26:18 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234 00:26:21 `n 00:26:21 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 00:26:33 lgtm 00:27:19 `` doag bin/distort 00:27:21 11817:2019-05-10 sled bin/distort//s/460/459/ \ 11510:2018-04-14 sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/ \ 10972:2017-05-29 sled bin/distort//8s,int,str, \ 10971:2017-05-29 revert \ 10970:2017-05-29 sled bin/distort//s,int,str, \ 10969:2017-05-29 sled bin/distort//2s:, math::;8cmw = len(int(2*s/N))-1 \ 10968:2017-05-29 fetch bin/distort https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/bin/distort 00:29:14 `? shaventions 00:29:15 Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, {s,p}led/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1/4/5, edit. Taneb did not invent them yet. 00:29:25 edit sure was a great shavention 00:31:36 `hurl bin/distort 00:31:37 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/distort 00:32:38 HackEso's own threshold is supposed to be strict enough to not change unpredictably. 00:32:50 Yeah but I know what changed. 00:33:14 It used to identify as user "h": :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi now it's :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi 00:33:41 And that happens to push it one character over the 512 byte limit for PRIVMSG. 00:33:54 as you noticed :) 00:34:05 I thought it had a larger margin of safety than that. 00:34:11 But maybe it's been optomilized. 00:34:40 April 14th, 2018: sled bin/distort//s/N = 350/N = 460/ 00:35:15 Guess so. 00:35:41 I think I'll try to shorten it back down again though. 00:35:57 I think it's good for N to match HackEso's bound exactly. 00:36:04 So `2 is reliable. 00:36:33 Hmm, except it also adds a header. 00:36:43 I'm not complaining, I find it satisfying to know what changed :) 00:37:11 HackEso's bound is kind of complex, because it's "460 rounded down to the previous full Unicode codepoint if the text decodes as valid UTF-8; otherwise 460". 00:37:52 Does distort handle that? 00:37:52 just put 444 there :) 00:38:05 I wonder where the ~h came from. 00:38:15 The stock multibot code always just puts the nick there. 00:38:24 Do you require the entire text to decode as valid UTF-8, or do you just step back up to 3 continuation bytes from the end? 00:38:38 No, the entire text needs to be valid UTF-8 for that rule to trigger. 00:38:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61901&oldid=61900 * Oerjan * (+902) /* Page content deletions */ new section 00:38:53 Right, because some IRC clients use that funny dual encoding. 00:39:01 fizzie: hmm did you ever use any irc proxy for hackeso? 00:39:21 https://bitbucket.org/fizzie/hackbot/src/2bc6f94/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd#lines-64 00:39:21 * int-e forgot the proper term. 00:39:27 Bouncer? 00:39:31 Not as far as I recall. 00:39:53 `5 w 00:39:55 1/2:erkin//An erkin is a variety of cucumber: the West Indian or burr erkin (Cucumis anguria), which produces a somewhat smaller fruit than the garden cucumber (Cucumis sativus). \ copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president. \ ant//Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways. \ doodad//Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors. \ bottom//Bottom is where you might end up with a catamorphism, 00:39:57 `n 00:39:58 2/2: if not careful. There be balrogs. 00:40:02 Maybe I just had a patched version of multibot or something. 00:40:32 irc bouncer was the term I forgot 00:40:59 Is that like a trampoline? 00:41:01 fizzie: thanks. (I googled... resulting in a race condition) 00:41:14 shachaf: less dangerous, I think 00:41:41 Race conditions on trampolines sound pretty dangerous. 00:41:55 shachaf: it's for people who want to appear constantly online and still use their own graphical irc client from home 00:42:23 I appreciate that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trampoline_(computing) has an entry for Befunge. 00:42:29 Or just want the flexibility of switching clients every now and then, without having to change logging formats and all that. 00:42:35 (That's why I use bip.) 00:42:43 IRC is such a scow. 00:42:45 (Except the logging format is unconfigurable and kind of sucky.) 00:43:04 -!- HackEso has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:16 -!- HackEso has joined. 00:43:16 oh no 00:43:20 Anyway. 00:43:20 if only HackEso used a trampoline 00:43:36 shachaf: it bounced right back! 00:44:05 Isn't it great how using nested functions in gcc will make your whole stack executable? 00:44:08 Went back to ~h. With an identd reply, it could be one character shorter. 00:44:33 `1 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done 00:44:34 1/3:01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234 00:44:35 `n 00:44:36 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 00:44:42 `` for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done 00:44:43 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 00:44:49 `2 for i in {1..100}; do echo -n 0123456789; done 00:44:50 2/3:56789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789 00:44:54 oh no 00:45:20 I'd test this in /msg but everything would be different there. 00:45:40 just /nick _esoteric ;-) 00:46:16 /nick eric_esot 00:46:59 "Ice_Store" is a good one. 00:47:04 https://new.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=esoteric&t=500&a=n 00:47:31 core_site 00:47:49 Does distort handle that? <-- that's the whole point of the fancy math 00:48:12 oerjan: ok but i didn't actually read the code hth 00:48:15 `url bin/distort 00:48:16 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/distort 00:51:00 . o O ( Is HackEso secretly a drug dealer? It rearranges to: Has Coke ) 00:52:48 shachaf: pretty sure you were around when i made it hth 00:53:28 unfortunately the fancy math doesn't work if it has to do unicode acrobatics as well. 00:53:57 (and i don't know how to.) 00:55:23 oerjan: Oh, my question was whether distort does unicode acrobatics. 00:55:31 What does the fancy math do? 00:56:45 -!- salpynx has joined. 00:57:54 int-e: well done on your solution to my challenge on that page, and the other contributions! I'm honestly surprised the solution looks so straightforward in the end, but I imagine it took quite a bit of work to get there, so thanks for taking the time to decipher the interpreter 00:58:52 I was trying to make progress by trying many different smaller programs through the interpreter and seeing what happend, black box style. 01:00:09 salpynx: if you look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitch#Addition you'll see that it's based on similar gymnastics 01:00:20 (though quite a bit more elaborate) 01:01:24 But my main starting point was the interpreter itself, observing that when instructions are chained, the entire state is copied and only the resulting accumulator is used. 01:01:56 I guess I still spent a couple of hours getting to the point where that insight was finally useful. 01:03:33 shachaf: it makes sure the lines have the requested total length even though the line number prefix changes 01:03:49 Oh, that. 01:03:59 Can you make it handle UTF-8 as well? twh 01:04:18 no hth 01:04:29 tdnifh 01:04:40 stby 01:04:45 int-e: after my response to Helen, where I mentioned the addition example, it occurred to me it probably had to be using a technique like that to work at all.. I thought it was working because the user provided at least the second operand, and wanted to take that out of the equation 01:05:16 `? stby 01:05:17 stby? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:06:54 it's easily googleable hth 01:07:09 I can't get Helen's structure to work, but I suspect there is way. The challenge was an invitation for Helen to show how it worked on a simple example. 01:07:24 https://www.bing.com/search?q=stby 01:07:27 oerjan: nah I got it 01:07:27 although i probably said because the very reverend over at schlock mercenary used it at one point. 01:07:32 «Meaning "Sorry to bother you"» 01:07:33 *said it 01:07:43 oerjan: I started out with "sorry ..." and now I've realized my mistake. 01:08:04 well that _is_ one option, although not the one i was thinking of. 01:08:14 oerjan: it's quite all right, old chap 01:08:24 Anyway, my technique of saying something wrong on the internet and then waiting to be corrected has worked as intended :) 01:08:56 hm was there an xkcd about that 01:09:19 imagine that 01:09:22 (not the "someone is wrong on the internet" one) 01:09:29 someone made a comic about a thing 01:09:37 I still don't know whether that language is TC though. (I'm certaint that it's close enough to make no practical difference.) 01:09:44 *certain 01:09:57 i think shachaf is having a sarcasm leak 01:10:43 actually i just remember someone mentioning that technique, it probably wasn't xkcd. 01:10:43 I don't think I was _that_ wrong, I hypothesised a "clever solution" would involve placing bounds, thus invalidating TC, which seems to be the case. 01:10:46 the fact that whatshisname made a comic strip about a thing that is much older than the comic strip is not relevant to anything 01:10:55 oerjan: perhaps you're thinking of http://bash.org/?152037 01:11:36 hm i don't think i've seen that before 01:11:55 maybe it was a different one 01:13:31 i don't get the "kindred spirit" thing, did they leave out something 01:13:54 whoa, it's ion 01:13:57 int-e: I will post some of my pre-disqualified solutions to the problem at some point, I implemented a lookup table version based on your ROT13 code, which I knew was possible but didn't figure out until I saw your technique. 01:14:01 salpynx: how about ]1^^]1^^[1[1 01:14:24 int-e: What language should I use instead of C? 01:14:58 shachaf: you? I imagine you'd enjoy machine code and dip switches. 01:15:12 Hmm, that doesn't sound that great. 01:15:18 To clarify, I want to use it to write software. 01:15:28 int-e: looks close, but seems to map 1 -> 3 ? 01:16:06 and 6 -> 4 01:16:23 salpynx: oh I dropped the wrong bit. ^^]1]1^^[1[1 01:17:04 does the storage thing also get copied when chaining, so that only an outermost bit shift has effect on it? 01:17:13 oerjan: yes 01:17:38 good, i might understand enough to think about stuff now. if i want. 01:17:46 that's the whole point of the ^^: it executes , but discards the effect on the storage 01:17:49 int-e: I came up with a strange joke version that works by using the user as a stack, but may be using an interpreter input bug: \&6|]1&1/#0\&6|\/ 01:17:55 aha 01:18:25 input has to be given twice, seperated by a space, then user must input the number given by the program to get the correct answer 01:18:39 and exploits that A^(A^A') = A' 01:18:45 -!- FreeFull has quit. 01:21:25 It made me think that any PDA with input and output could have the IO co-opted as a way to use the user as a second stack. ais523 mentioned that is how Wiki Cyclic Tag works, although the wiki page doesn't go into detail 01:24:05 Anyway, maybe more about this tomorrow. Or maybe not, I might have exhausted the low-hanging fruits :) 01:24:17 @time int-e 01:24:18 Local time for int-e is Fri May 10 03:24:17 2019 01:24:43 later today then :P 01:24:53 int-e: |[3&22]4|[4&7 is a version I came up with recently and independently of your solution, which seems to work to, presumably using the same principle, although I hadn't finished reviewing it 01:28:57 ^^]1]1^^[1[1 looks nice 02:41:23 -!- salpynx has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:08:10 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:27:49 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 05:39:09 -!- adu has joined. 06:45:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:31:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:14:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61902&oldid=61901 * A * (+2057) 08:19:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61903&oldid=61902 * A * (-938) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */ 08:20:04 wait, what 08:20:10 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61904&oldid=61892 * A * (-83) /* Impossible */ 08:22:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61905&oldid=61903 * A * (+16169) YEAH! Successfully made the page longer 08:26:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61906&oldid=61905 * A * (-871) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 08:27:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61907&oldid=61906 * A * (-328) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ 09:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:19:42 @tell oerjan Judging from the difference in capitalization, I think most of the lines were copy-pasted, and only the "brings a tear" and "kindred spirit" ones were written by the person speaking. 09:19:43 Consider it noted. 10:04:39 -!- TheWild has joined. 10:10:43 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61908&oldid=61907 * A * (+24) Add a trivial (but probably useful) operation 10:19:43 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61909&oldid=61908 * A * (+395) Add some operations that I find in Assembly language (not implemented, but might be possible in bitch) 10:20:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61910&oldid=61909 * A * (+5) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 10:28:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61911&oldid=61910 * A * (+37) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 11:12:34 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:16:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61912&oldid=61911 * A * (-128) Delete some commands that are definitely not possible or trivial 11:32:49 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:33:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61913&oldid=61912 * A * (+185) Explain why I removed some content 11:34:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:34:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:34:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61914&oldid=61913 * A * (-30) /* Attempts at proving Turing-completeness */ 11:40:20 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61915&oldid=61642 * A * (-1692) Blanked the page 11:43:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61916&oldid=61914 * A * (-20) /* Operations */ 11:53:29 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:55:41 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:56:18 http://www.omniglot.com/blog/?p=17470 Omniglot blog writes about the obsolete ]cyrillic letter multiocular o 12:01:17 one of my favorite letters with no use 12:03:53 I have a bad pun «серафимы многооконные» (many-windowed instead many-eyed) which completely isn’t going out of my head when I remember that letter 12:04:21 I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable. 12:05:01 Also lack of spaces. Stupid modern designers show their total lack of respect to our typographic traditions. 12:16:04 I think that only counts as a letter for historical reasons. These days advertisments and product packaging is full of title text with some letters replaced by images, making the text ugly and often unreadable. => agree 12:17:12 in Unicode terms, it’s more like a “letter-like form” 12:18:12 hm and how many alphabets had one time or another included an ampersand in them? I know this about English, but that’s all 12:36:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:52:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:04:51 I have concieved by any mean the weakest logic possible, of those containing implication and MP 13:05:02 it has a single axiom [schema] A → A 13:06:22 and it corresponds to the subset of combinatory calculus with terms containing only I and variables. Not saying “typed”, as any such term seems typable 13:08:14 it’s a nice counterpart to the “trivial logic” which has an axiom A, or which has a single truth value, which in this case is perfectly interchangeable 13:09:15 how expressive is it? 13:09:18 if I think right, classical logic is the strongest one weaker than this one 13:09:37 myname: both are fairly inexpressive, I’d say totally 13:10:17 they are interesting mainly as bounds, at least for me 13:10:17 how do you deduct anything with just A -> A 13:12:33 hm, now I think should there be no axioms at all 13:13:21 things that are true: true 13:13:35 things that are known to nor be true: 13:14:54 (cont.) if we have implication and MP, it should in some way mirror inference, as we want the deduction theorem present, at least I do, then this axiom A → A is unavoidable 13:15:32 anyway this is the rationale for this logic: it’s as weak as possible 13:15:50 but it has trivial deductions A ⊦ A 13:18:28 hm, now I think it’s in a sense incomplete, if we are to say about deduction theorem. It’s needed that axioms S and K be true 13:18:33 oh damn 13:19:04 and without that metatheorem, the weakest logic is indeed one without any axioms at all 13:22:19 though it still is fairly interesting: it corresponds to a subset of the combinator calculus with terms on variables only 13:23:27 what exactly is MP though... you may add a linearity constraint if you want to make things less interesting 13:24:44 (and drop the K) 13:29:05 MP is an one-sided manifestation of the deduction theorem, that wich we could state as a Hilbertian inference rule 13:29:12 I think more or less this 13:29:25 I have made it up right now 13:29:51 `grWp ꙮ 13:29:53 ​ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ mꙮnqy:mꙮnqy is watching you. 13:29:59 Wasn't there a poem or something? 13:30:14 int-e: and yeah, I haven’t thought of linearity 13:35:25 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 13:39:50 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61917&oldid=61916 * A * (+249) Ask 13:40:47 int-e: hm by the way do you know what the deduction theorem would necessitate in a first-order logic? Should it have ∃? should it have even ∀? (well, if no and no, then the situation would be too dire, so I presume, with some other intuitive feelings, ∀ should live) 13:42:11 at least I’m fairly set on that it could have = and the equality axioms if so needed 13:43:26 hi 13:47:17 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61918&oldid=61917 * A * (-119) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 13:53:17 -!- TheWild has quit (Quit: TheWild). 14:06:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61919&oldid=61918 * Int-e * (+288) /* Operations */ 14:09:14 arseniiv: I think it should have both to qualify as "first-order logic", but I don't know what other fragments people may have found interesting enough to study. 14:20:10 int-e: okay, thanks! 14:23:11 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61920&oldid=61904 * Int-e * (+815) /* Common Algorithms */ On ^^ 14:31:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:49:39 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61921&oldid=61919 * A * (+169) /* Operations */ 14:50:29 [[*W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61922&oldid=20457 * YamTokTpaFa * (+127) /* External resources */ Help! WTF the usage of [[Template:Wayback]] is?! 14:53:28 [[Excela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61923&oldid=30479 * YamTokTpaFa * (+71) /* External resources */ So wtf the template usage is? 15:18:51 -!- imode has joined. 15:38:40 -!- sleffy has joined. 15:38:40 -!- sleffy has quit (Client Quit). 15:51:29 -!- MDead has joined. 15:52:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:53:03 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 15:57:15 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:58:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:59:35 Is there a term for a language which is not Turing complete itself, but if you pipe its input into an interpreter it is? 16:00:16 so basically it just has to produce any fixed output that you desire? 16:00:45 int-e: I mean, an interpreter for the same language 16:01:09 So, I write a program in Language X, which outputs another Language X program, and so on 16:01:23 hmm 16:01:36 (also, is such a language possible?) 16:01:41 -!- MDude has joined. 16:02:59 Such a language is called "the language of text documents" 16:03:08 Taneb: bitch may be such a language if used in a streaming fashion (you can unroll an outer working loop in the first program, effectively giving you nesting level 2 for loops. The second program can still terminate by issuing a . instruction.) 16:03:12 any text document simply outputs itself 16:03:44 Cale: not in such a way that the system so formed is Turing complete when the original language isn't 16:03:46 Taneb: so it's a matter of a precise definition. (Also bitch may still turn out to be TC by itself. It's just unclear how.) 16:04:20 Well, and then you can just pick your favourite Turing complete language interpreter as the second bit 16:04:24 Taneb: Would you allow that? Using a finite program to produce an infinite (but very regular...) one? 16:04:38 Cale: no, it's the same interpreter 16:04:49 Yeah the twist is that the two languages are supposed to be the same. 16:04:50 int-e: I guess 16:05:06 Oh 16:05:09 In that case... 16:05:12 int-e: but also the output of the second program can be fed into a third interpreter instance 16:05:31 Taneb: how do you deal with inputs though? 16:05:46 I choose the language to be the lambda calculus, and I choose the interpreter to be something which performs a single beta reduction step 16:06:33 int-e: I haven't thought much about it 16:07:19 Doing one beta reduction isn't Turing complete, but finding a fixed point of that is. 16:07:44 Cale: OK, that makes sense 16:16:20 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:16:49 . o O ( A asked a question about how my decrement implementation works. I don't want to tackle that, I'm afraid it would be like jumping into an abyss... endless follow-up questions about increasingly trivial things. I have yet to see any sign of knowledge in A... ) 16:17:20 I wonder how unfair I'm being in that assessment. 16:17:51 let me be unfair with you 16:18:08 arseniiv: be my guest. 16:20:20 I think I may be somewhat biased about A but I embrace it with all my heart. Oh 16:21:19 -!- MDude has joined. 16:31:24 -!- atslash has joined. 16:40:42 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61924&oldid=61920 * Int-e * (-6) /* The ^^ Trick */ formatting 16:46:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:59:54 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61925&oldid=61924 * Int-e * (+140) /* Bitwise Instructions */ clarify what happens to the storage when instructions are chained 17:02:12 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61926&oldid=61925 * Int-e * (-21) /* Bitwise Instructions */ formatting 17:12:24 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:15:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:15:35 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61927&oldid=61926 * Int-e * (+19) more formatting plus minor clarifications 17:16:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:20:11 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61928&oldid=61921 * Int-e * (+167) /* Operations */ try to help to self-help. 17:21:04 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 17:28:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61929&oldid=61928 * Int-e * (+329) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ note on alternative bit copying code 17:37:34 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:01:57 -!- jinn has joined. 18:02:16 -!- jinn has left. 18:14:22 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:14:51 -!- MDude has joined. 18:20:50 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:26:41 [[Stackylogic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61930 * Prof Apex * (+1197) Created page with "Stackylogic is a stack-based programming language where every line is a stack of bits. It was created by [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/26997/calvins-hobbies Calvin..." 19:33:19 Hmm, Kaspall (a webcomic) is tough to get into: After 200 pages (4 years!) things are slowly making sense... 19:35:44 -!- b_jonas has joined. 19:44:03 [[*W]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61931&oldid=61922 * Salpynx * (-87) /* External resources */ wayback machine is a web archiver, see [[Template:deadlink]] for slightly more info 19:46:18 `? cromulent 19:46:19 cromulent? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:46:48 ``` set -e; cd wisdom; grep -REi cromulent . 19:46:49 No output. 20:02:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:03:08 Today is hot in here 20:03:12 ?metar CYVR 20:03:13 CYVR 101900Z 24007KT 30SM FEW040 18/13 A2994 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP139 DENSITY ALT 400FT 20:07:32 @mtear koak 20:07:32 KOAK 101953Z 29010KT 10SM FEW015 FEW200 19/11 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP097 T01890106 20:08:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61932&oldid=61929 * Salpynx * (+48) Indenting responses and signing helps make the page easier to follow. Fixed some 20:09:29 and the weather is predicted to get even warmer 20:17:19 `? cape 20:17:20 cape? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:38:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:48:35 I thought of storing a Huffman tree, has been mentioned on here before. It is mentioned store how many codes of each length. Yes, you can do, with first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned. 20:49:55 You can keep track of how many codes are available, as well as how many bits are needed for the highest possible number. Subtract the number of bits used from the maximum, and then store that number, skipping any bits of that number which are implied (for example, if it can be "00" or "01" or "10" (0 to 2) then you can abbreviate "10" as just "1"). 20:50:18 You can also add one more bit at the beginning to indicate whether the largest number of bits per code is odd or even. 20:55:09 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:55:53 zzo38: yes, ais523 asked about Huffman trees 20:56:04 -!- atslash has joined. 21:01:12 I'm traveling to the Netherlands for vacation starting tomorrow, so I won't be reachable through IRC or email until 2019-05-21. 21:02:19 Also I'm reading the airplane baggage regulations. So scissors have to go to the carry-on luggage; spare batteries for my camera have to go to the hand luggage. 21:03:16 s/carry-on/checked in/ 21:04:18 And I'm required to cover the terminals of the spare camera battery with insulating tape to reduce the risk of an accidental short circuit. 21:05:01 seems reasonable 21:05:14 if there's a lithium battery fire they want it in the cabin so it can be contained 21:05:23 if there's a fire in the cargo hold and it spreads then they're pretty much fucked 21:08:11 I'll take some spare insulation tape to be able to keep these regulations on the way back too 21:19:38 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:21:50 good 21:21:56 normal electrical tape? 21:21:59 yes 21:22:06 now I'll have to cheat a bit with the hand luggage 21:23:27 the size limit is 0.55 m max height, but I really want to bring my 40 l backpack, which is about 0.60 high, 21:24:00 so I have to fold the top down enough on request, and pack it not too full so I can do that without having to remove more items than I can keep on my person 21:24:50 http://leftoversalad.com/c/015_programmingpeople/ 21:46:48 hello 21:47:37 zzo38: you can also build a huffman tree adaptively while decoding a stream so that no huffman tree needs t obe serialized 21:52:05 rain1: OK, how do you build that then? 21:53:36 start with a standard tree and each time you see a symbol update your counters and improve the tree to match the probabilities 21:55:12 Don't you have to rebuild the tree each time then? 21:55:19 yeah 21:55:36 as long as compression and decompression uses the same algorithm you can do this 21:55:44 it could rebuild the tree after 64 symbols 21:56:11 it's good to reset the tree occasionally too, in case one part of the file is biased in a different way than another part 21:56:50 I don't know if that aligns with whatever esoteric needs ais523 had though 21:59:24 Yes, there may be a different use. 22:00:03 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:00:31 In the case of Glulx (the way the Huffman tree is stored in Glulx is rather inefficient), the text is not "streaming" and rather you give the address of the beginning of a huffed text. 22:28:15 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61933&oldid=61927 * Int-e * (+104) /* Implementation */ another implementation 22:31:29 -!- MDude has joined. 22:51:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:59:00 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 23:02:50 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:04:43 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 23:18:10 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 23:19:00 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 23:23:05 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 23:25:27 -!- tromp has joined. 23:30:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:32:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:34:24 [[Talk:Uyjhmn n]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61934 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+12) Created page with "I hate this." 23:35:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:35:39 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:43:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 2019-05-11: 00:11:46 Is it better for the values of the Huffman codes to be in the ordinary order or to use reversed interleaved order? 00:16:03 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:20:10 -!- tromp has joined. 00:24:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:26:45 @messages- 00:26:45 fizzie said 15h 7m 2s ago: Judging from the difference in capitalization, I think most of the lines were copy-pasted, and only the "brings a tear" and "kindred spirit" ones were written by the 00:26:45 person speaking. 00:26:53 aha 00:30:34 wtf was that last edit... 00:35:22 `quot ꙮ 00:35:23 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quot: not found 00:35:27 `quote ꙮ 00:35:28 1133) A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." 00:35:49 but ꙮ is alphanumeric! 00:35:53 it's Letter, Other or something 00:36:00 * kmc is the official sponsor of ꙮ 00:36:09 and my wife has a shirt with two of them on it 00:36:22 `quote itidus.*bested 00:36:23 452) well, you have bested me itidus20: Yes. 00:36:48 oh man, those were the days 00:39:52 (also, is such a language possible?) <-- istr CPP is one? 00:40:49 that is, there's a kind of TC proof for CPP where you have to iterate it on its output. 00:43:57 kmc: imo write your own limerick which is unicodely correct if you don't like this one 00:44:11 limericks are hard 00:44:17 ꙮ is only barely a letter 00:44:17 also that's not a real limerick 00:44:26 because it's not lewd 00:44:31 it's like those fancy letter glyphs they write at the beginnings of chapters 00:44:49 there's no requirement for limericks to be lewd 00:44:49 only barely counts here 00:44:53 I thought there was 00:45:29 no, it's even rarer than that, apparently... it only ever occurs in one phrase? 00:45:29 > Gershon Legman, who compiled the largest and most scholarly anthology, held that the true limerick as a folk form is always obscene, and cites similar opinions by Arnold Bennett and George Bernard Shaw,[6] describing the clean limerick as a "periodic fad and object of magazine contests, rarely rising above mediocrity". From a folkloric point of view, the form is essentially transgressive; violation of 00:45:52 :1:15: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 00:45:54 taboo is part of its function. 00:46:56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O 00:48:40 gershon legman held that, and i hold the negation of that 00:48:40 well... okay 00:48:40 @quote limerick 00:48:40 No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo? 00:48:40 @quote kmc 00:48:40 kmc says: it's great how laziness lets you ignore the order of evaluation except all the times when it doesn't 00:48:40 i used to be a snarky little shit 00:48:40 i still am, but I used to, too 00:48:40 I suppose it can still be the form of a limerick even if it is not a "true limerick" 00:48:40 Oh, right, it was a quote and not a wisdom. 00:48:40 `? ꙮ 00:48:40 ​ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. 00:48:40 `? haiku 00:48:40 ​🀨や⛄ 00:48:40 Yes, there were two wisdome, but I was looking for the poetry. 00:48:40 `grWp ꙮ 00:48:40 ​ꙮ:ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric. \ mꙮnqy:mꙮnqy is watching you. 00:49:09 how prosaic 00:49:10 Someone told me if you're using singular they, you'd also use the singular verb forms, as in "they is a journalist". 00:49:22 (I don't think that's necessarily how it works.) 00:49:48 fizzie: But "you" is also grammatically plural even if it is singular, I think, isn't it? 00:50:09 Yes, that too. 00:50:50 But I guess they were (they was?) reasoning by comparing to he/she. 00:51:16 I definitely don't do that 00:51:22 but I go back and forth on "themself" vs "themselves" 00:52:04 please phrase your answer in the form of a limerick twh 00:53:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:58:35 golly 00:59:03 imo poetry is tg 01:02:07 [[Excela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61935&oldid=61923 * Oerjan * (+4) Like this 01:03:12 I think it should be "themself" (like "yourself") if it is singular. 01:14:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61936&oldid=61932 * A * (+168) Add a subheading 01:15:24 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61937&oldid=61936 * A * (+62) Oh no, forgot to sign again 01:16:22 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61938&oldid=61933 * Oerjan * (+16) /* Bitwise Instructions */ Accumulator also discarded 01:17:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61939&oldid=61937 * A * (+36) Delete a useless talk 01:20:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61940&oldid=61939 * A * (+99) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:21:29 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61941&oldid=61940 * A * (-74) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:23:47 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61942&oldid=61941 * A * (+334) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:24:34 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61943&oldid=61942 * Oerjan * (-2) /* Page content deletions */ Make this not a subsection 01:28:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61944&oldid=61943 * A * (-71) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:28:41 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61945&oldid=61944 * A * (+2) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:29:58 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MadMax * New user account 01:32:21 Do you know how to do in SQLite to optimize a query by the assumptions that two orders are the same order without needing to add another index? I have one table ART which has AN as the alias of the rowid, but also TIME which has the same order as AN (although duplicates in TIME are possible). 01:33:43 The query does not have a ORDER BY clause (the order of the result doesn't matter), but it has WHERE TIME >= ?1 and it should be able to use the primary key to search even though it isn't the primary key, because the order is the same, but SQLite can't know that. 01:36:10 oerjan: not sure about your edit to the bitch page (the effect on the accumulator influences the final result) 01:37:25 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:47 -!- hakatashi has joined. 01:38:05 oerjan: it doesn't survive in the accumulator, of course. 01:38:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61946&oldid=61877 * MadMax * (+75) /* Introductions */ 01:38:32 [[User:MadMax]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61947 * MadMax * (+579) (?!) Language 01:38:35 >_< 01:38:55 [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61948&oldid=61947 * MadMax * (+11) 01:39:31 [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61949&oldid=61948 * MadMax * (+2) 01:39:48 [[User:MadMax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61950&oldid=61949 * MadMax * (+6) 01:40:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61951&oldid=61945 * A * (-81) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:40:40 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:03 -!- hakatashi has joined. 01:41:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61952&oldid=61951 * A * (+61) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:41:34 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61953&oldid=61885 * MadMax * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */ 01:42:08 [[(?!)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61954 * MadMax * (+590) Created page with " 3 Simple Commands: '''?''' - Increment tape '''!''' - Pop character corresponding to that ascii digit '''()''' - Loop to multiply numbers There is no way to decrement..." 01:43:22 hmm the introduction check doesn't check whether the user signed their edit 01:43:37 (probably hard to do) 01:43:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61955&oldid=61952 * A * (+62) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:45:02 You could check for a link to their own user page, maybe 01:52:41 int-e: it used to check for ~~~~, but so many people couldn't manage to it right that ais523 removed the check 01:52:50 *to get it 02:08:02 -!- tromp has joined. 02:12:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:13:14 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:33:47 Do you like my variant "bands with other" rules for Magic: the Gathering? 02:34:25 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61956&oldid=61955 * A * (+1) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 02:40:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61957&oldid=61956 * A * (+65) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 03:56:07 -!- tromp has joined. 04:00:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:07:39 Maybe I should implement a SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE command in my NNTP server? 05:13:24 -!- hakatashi1 has joined. 05:13:37 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:17:46 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:17:47 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:17:47 -!- hakatashi has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:17:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:17:47 -!- G33kDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:19:08 -!- Guest85266 has joined. 05:20:36 -!- lambdabot has joined. 05:21:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:44:17 -!- tromp has joined. 05:48:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:51:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:51:58 -!- Guest85266 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:51:59 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:52:34 -!- GeekDude has joined. 05:52:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 05:54:11 -!- rain1 has joined. 06:56:00 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61958&oldid=61938 * A * (+14) The Java implementation also supports bugnums. 06:59:17 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61959&oldid=61958 * A * (-14) Undo revision 61958 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 07:15:51 -!- b_jonas has joined. 07:16:53 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61960&oldid=61959 * A * (+31) 07:17:31 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61961&oldid=61960 * A * (+1) Oops 07:19:54 zzo38: it's missing the rule that creatues in any one attacking band must attack the same player or planeswalker; apart from that I don't see how they differ from the new bands with other rules 07:20:30 zzo38: also, https://media.wizards.com/2019/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020190503.txt is out, and the formatting is totally messed up: it uses cr as line separator, and it's utf-8 encoded again 07:30:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61962&oldid=61957 * A * (-27) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 07:32:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61963&oldid=61962 * A * (+26) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 07:33:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61964&oldid=61963 * A * (+28) Wonderful! It does not affect the storage. 07:38:37 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:38:58 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61965&oldid=61964 * A * (-13) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 08:02:03 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61966&oldid=61961 * Int-e * (+1916) /* The ^^ Trick */ -> systematic bitwise operations 08:09:57 -!- tromp has joined. 08:10:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:18:40 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61967&oldid=61966 * Int-e * (+166) /* Addition */ simplify and add subtraction as well 08:24:21 -!- desolator has joined. 08:24:28 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:25:04 -!- fmease has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:25:06 -!- wmww has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:25:14 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:26:08 -!- clog has joined. 08:36:57 -!- fmease has joined. 08:46:21 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61968&oldid=61967 * Int-e * (+46) /* I/O Instructions */ \ and # clear the storage 08:55:49 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61969&oldid=61968 * Int-e * (+114) /* More Bitwise Operations */ consistent naming of bitwise operations 08:56:28 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 08:56:28 -!- wmww has joined. 08:58:39 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:04:06 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61970&oldid=61965 * A * (+8) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 09:07:03 -!- desolator has left ("WeeChat 1.4"). 09:09:56 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61971&oldid=61970 * Helen * (+661) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Added working example of cell memory as a response to [[User:Salpynx|Salpynx]] 09:25:00 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61972&oldid=61971 * Helen * (+277) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Added a solution for the sake of proving it is possible with the cell structure but also for the sake of study 09:27:02 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61973&oldid=61972 * Helen * (+140) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Fixing bad formatting 09:32:44 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:32:44 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 09:32:44 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:35:43 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61974&oldid=61969 * Int-e * (+44) /* Bitwise Instructions */ explicit scope for "In the above" 09:48:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:59:03 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61975&oldid=61974 * Int-e * (+159) /* Bitwise Instructions */ effects of chained ., >, or < are also lost 10:11:54 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61976&oldid=61973 * Helen * (+1071) /* Cell-based tape */ Added bitwise operations on cells 10:17:59 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61977&oldid=61976 * Helen * (-16) /* Bitwise operations on two cells */ Fixed formatting 10:18:18 -!- moei has joined. 10:33:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61978&oldid=61977 * Helen * (-4) /* Bitwise operations on two cells */ Fixed minor problem with algorithm 10:39:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61979&oldid=61978 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 10:42:04 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61980&oldid=61975 * A * (+22) Specify # 10:52:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:36:24 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:40:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:40:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:53:27 b_jonas: Yes, I already downloaded it and I noticed that 12:00:41 (About creatures in a band having to attack the same player or planeswalker, that is just my mistake it is supposed to require that still) 12:18:09 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 12:31:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:33:44 -!- tromp has joined. 12:48:04 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61981&oldid=61980 * A * (+82) /* Cat program (limited to integers) */ 13:23:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:57:21 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61982&oldid=61981 * Helen * (-86) /* Cat program (limited to integers) */ No need to keep the old version 13:58:40 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61983&oldid=61982 * Helen * (+86) Undo revision 61982 by [[Special:Contributions/Helen|Helen]] ([[User talk:Helen|talk]]): We should keep the code for explanation's sake 13:59:24 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61984&oldid=61983 * Helen * (-22) /* Cat program */ Changed section title to fit with the others 14:14:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:17:29 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61985&oldid=61979 * A * (+201) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 14:38:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:38:21 -!- laerling has joined. 14:52:18 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61986&oldid=61985 * Int-e * (+46) /* Operations */ I think one variant of CLS is enough (personally I'd have used #|0) 14:56:23 [[Elevator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61987 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+390) Created page with "'''Elevator''' is an esoteric programming language made by ~~~~ to program elevators. ==Syntax== There are to types of syntax: commands and blocks. They syntax is the followin..." 14:57:40 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61988&oldid=61987 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-75) 14:58:01 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61989&oldid=61988 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-20) 14:58:30 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61990&oldid=61989 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) 14:59:10 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61991&oldid=61990 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15) 15:13:35 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:16:43 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:17:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:18:02 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:39:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:40:45 b_jonas: my initial aim for the Huffman trees was to use static Huffman trees calculated in advance, but the adaptive trees are also interesting and I'm considering using those for a differernt purpose 15:43:27 Taneb: it's entirely possible to have a language that's sub-TC but is made TC by repeatedly-forever running its output as a program in the same language; the easiest way to construct this is to write a language that's otherwise TC but has no way to do loops, and use the rerunning as a method of looping 15:44:49 finite chains of sub-TC languages are much more interesting; if all the intermediate outputs have to be finite the result is obviously sub-TC (you could just write the last program in the chain directly), but if you can produce infinite output and run that as a program, the whole situation becomes conceptually weird 15:48:19 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61992&oldid=61991 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1317) /* Commands */ 15:49:30 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61993&oldid=61992 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+7) /* Blocks */ 15:51:35 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61994&oldid=61993 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13) /* Syntax */ 15:57:11 -!- imode has joined. 16:02:48 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61995&oldid=61994 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+359) /* Concepts */ 16:03:16 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:03:35 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61996&oldid=61995 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+19) 16:16:07 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61997&oldid=61996 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+516) /* Implementation */ 16:18:48 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61998&oldid=61997 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+63) /* Implementation */ 16:20:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 16:20:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:21:31 What is a "A4 SDK"? 16:21:36 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61999&oldid=61998 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+81) /* Blocks */ 16:22:14 ais523: I mentioned now a way of storing a Huffman tree. Do you think that is good? 16:23:20 I think the "number of entries at each length" is probably shorter, isn't it? because then you don't have to store the codes at all 16:23:58 You will still need to specify the values of the codes, but not the codes themself 16:26:57 first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned. You can keep track of how many codes are available, as well as how many bits are needed for the highest possible number. Subtract the number of bits used from the maximum, and then store that number, skipping any bits of that number which are implied (for example, if it can be "00" or "01" or "10" (0 to 2) then you can abbreviate "10" as just "1"). 16:27:16 Is it understandable what I meant? 16:33:39 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62000&oldid=61999 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+211) /* Special syntaxes */ 16:42:14 first how many 1-bit codes, how many 2-bit codes, etc until all of the codes are assigned. ← once you have this, you can immediately calculate all the codes, you don't need any further information except that they're in canonical order 16:42:21 and there's no reason to not put your Huffman tree in canonical order 16:49:38 You will need to know which values have shorter codes though, I think. Even if they are in order. 16:50:27 yes, you need to list all the values in either case 16:51:05 Still if they are in order, the values can be abbreviated in a similar way to the number of codes 16:51:24 yes; my first Huffman compressor did that 16:51:40 but I've decided to not do that in the final version because the savings aren't that large and I'd prefer to improve access speed 16:52:03 OK 16:52:30 However, if you do abbreviate the values, which order is better, the ordinary order or the interleaved reversed order? 16:52:47 I tried ordinary, but I don't think it worked that well 16:52:58 how does interleaved-reversed work? is it just alphabetical order of the strings written backwards? 16:53:27 No. I mean for example instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 you have 1,7,2,6,3,5,4 16:53:49 I don't see how you abbreviate that 16:54:16 if you put the values in lexicographical order you can omit common prefixes as a form of compression 16:54:23 Yes, I know that 16:55:09 I suppose also it depend if the number of bits that makes up each value is fixed or varies, also matters; I was assuming fixed 16:59:51 (I have not actually tried any of the stuff I have mentioned; it is just ideas I have) 17:15:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:16:18 [[Compose]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62001 * Koyodyne * (+285) Created the page with a short summary of the idea of the language 17:22:57 [[Compose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62002&oldid=62001 * Koyodyne * (+242) Added sections 17:28:25 -!- OriginalOldMan has joined. 17:49:00 hmm catalan numbers 17:56:55 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 18:17:16 If I implement SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE commands in my NNTP server, will you use that? (I would implement you can specify either a email address or another NNTP server as the target to copy the articles to.) Also is there a email header to indicate not to auto-reply to a message? 18:23:34 apparently so. https://superuser.com/questions/481645/will-outlook-out-of-office-reply-go-to-mailing-lists 18:25:53 I suppose I can add all five headers. 18:27:23 Not only for mailing lists, but also so that it does not auto-reply to auto-replies. 18:32:22 . o O ( and use an inactive address as from: and list-reply-to: for the real reply address. ) 18:33:34 Since it is NNTP, you can't reply by email; if you want to reply to a message you must use NNTP. 18:33:47 But no, no more usenet for me. 18:36:16 This server is not Usenet; it is Unusenet. And, no account is needed. 18:36:41 regardless 18:37:16 For downloading the articles, in addition to NNTP also gopher is supported (if you know the article number). 18:43:18 I think this would be better than using mailing lists and web forums and stuff, in my opinion 18:45:39 perhaps but it's not going to happen 18:46:13 On my computer it does. 18:46:39 (Some people also like to set up multiple interfaces to the same messages, which can also be done if wanted.) 19:00:30 The man page for vacation(1) also says that "Precedence: bulk" will suppress replies from it. (Since not everyone will be using Outlook, this is good to have.) 19:02:44 reading Egan again, Luminous and Dark integers this time 19:14:41 -!- OriginalOldMan has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:34:40 -!- laerling has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:40 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Quittin'.). 20:03:44 -!- shikhin has joined. 20:18:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:31:40 those are fun 20:31:57 [[ArrowFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62003 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+781) Created page with "'''ArrowFuck''' is a programing language created by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]] 100% backwards compatible with [[Brainfuck]] beeing the only diference that ArrowFuck stor..." 20:50:51 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62004&oldid=62000 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+711) /* Examples */ 20:52:33 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62005&oldid=62004 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+18) /* Calculator elevator */ 20:54:17 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62006&oldid=62005 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+20) /* Calculator elevator */ 21:03:31 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62007&oldid=62006 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+450) /* Truth machine */ 21:04:53 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62008&oldid=62007 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Truth machine */ 21:06:27 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62009&oldid=62008 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+69) /* Cat and normal elevator */ 21:08:15 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62010&oldid=62009 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Truth elevator */ 21:08:50 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62011&oldid=62010 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Truth elevator */ 21:10:46 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62012&oldid=62011 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Calculator elevator */ 21:17:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:26:28 rain1: yeah, he did well 21:26:36 https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/459 21:31:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:39:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:43:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:44:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:45:02 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:52:42 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62013&oldid=62012 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1022) /* Cleaner */ 21:53:51 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62014&oldid=62013 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Cleaner Version */ 21:56:25 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62015&oldid=62014 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+21) /* Truth elevator */ 22:05:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:07:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:18:15 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:18:32 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62016&oldid=62015 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+406) /* Hello Elevator */ 22:24:11 [[Elevator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62017&oldid=62016 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-8) /* Commands */ 22:25:32 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62018&oldid=62017 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+4) 22:31:45 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62019&oldid=62018 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+155) /* Implementation */ 22:37:18 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Unlimiter * New user account 22:42:16 -!- unlimiter has joined. 22:42:27 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 22:54:18 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62020&oldid=62019 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+63) 22:55:21 [[Elevator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62021&oldid=62020 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) 22:58:34 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62022&oldid=61953 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15) /* E */ 23:08:29 -!- adu has joined. 23:34:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:36:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:36:53 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 2019-05-12: 00:01:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:04:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:09:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:19:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:27:52 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:28:36 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 00:32:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:46:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:47:06 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 00:58:20 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:04:11 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:04:34 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 01:13:27 -!- imode has joined. 01:18:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:20:15 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:20:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:22:11 -!- fmease has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:22:30 -!- wmww has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:22:30 -!- tswett[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:25:38 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:30:10 [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62023&oldid=61850 * YamTokTpaFa * (+255) /* Thanks for showing me correct usage of {{Wayback}}. */ new section 01:32:21 [[TroJavaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62024&oldid=60462 * YamTokTpaFa * (+34) Any specifications? 01:36:37 [[User:YamTokTpaFa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62025&oldid=61388 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22) 01:37:14 [[User:YamTokTpaFa/sandbox3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62026 * YamTokTpaFa * (+534) Created page with "[[POGAACK]] {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Brainfuck eqivalent |- | pogack! || > |- | pogaack! || < |- | Example ||..." 01:38:05 [[Run On Off]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62027&oldid=61583 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) 01:39:45 [[Wittgen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62028&oldid=32831 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) +CATS 01:40:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62029&oldid=61946 * Oerjan * (+39) unsigned 01:41:09 [[Image]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62030&oldid=51335 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +CAT 01:46:14 [[Talk:Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62031&oldid=47337 * YamTokTpaFa * (+41) 01:48:33 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 01:48:33 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split). 01:48:33 -!- bobby has quit (*.net *.split). 01:48:33 -!- myname has quit (*.net *.split). 01:48:33 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:49:02 [[Template:Unsigned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62032&oldid=8639 * YamTokTpaFa * (+473) 01:50:53 [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62033&oldid=49155 * YamTokTpaFa * (+67) +CATS 01:51:34 [[Stare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62034&oldid=44190 * YamTokTpaFa * (+50) +CATS 01:51:54 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:57:31 [[BitChanger--]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62035&oldid=43012 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 02:00:00 [[Treehugger/Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62036&oldid=41462 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) +CAT (TBH why not use code tags) 02:01:14 [[Container]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62037&oldid=40997 * YamTokTpaFa * (+51) +CATS 02:06:08 [[Template:Unsigned]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62038&oldid=62032 * Oerjan * (+194) grm, mention of history and UTC correction, remove unnecessary category 02:07:28 [[Template:Stub]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62039&oldid=60780 * Oerjan * (-22) I don't see the need for a category corresponding to a namespace 02:08:17 [[Template:Distinguish/Confusion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62040&oldid=60802 * Oerjan * (-24) Unnecessary category 02:14:45 -!- fmease has joined. 02:19:08 -!- wmww has joined. 02:23:12 -!- tswett[m] has joined. 02:24:08 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 02:27:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:27:59 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62041&oldid=58698 * YamTokTpaFa * (-32057) Archiving and New Topics 02:31:21 [[Compose]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62042&oldid=62002 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (pls....) 02:33:17 [[Template talk:Cn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62043 * YamTokTpaFa * (+192) /* Why does the template link to xkcd's comic Wikipedian Protester? */ new section 02:33:48 [[BANCStar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62044&oldid=61285 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) 02:34:48 [[Category:Data Types and Structures]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62045&oldid=44853 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +CAT (what do you think of this categorization?) 02:38:09 [[Madness]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62046&oldid=20027 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (WTF no section divisions?!) 02:38:56 [[CHR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62047&oldid=30930 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 02:39:34 [[Muddle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62048&oldid=54817 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) /* Interpreter */ +CAT (Pls add "Category:Languages"....) 02:44:55 [[Hsamsniarb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62049&oldid=39396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+77) +CATS (why not SyntaxHighlight) 02:45:15 -!- Vorpal has joined. 02:45:15 -!- HackEso has joined. 02:45:15 -!- bobby has joined. 02:45:15 -!- myname has joined. 02:47:28 `unidecode § 02:47:35 ​[U+00A7 SECTION SIGN] 02:48:58 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62050&oldid=62041 * YamTokTpaFa * (+401) /* (idea)Introducing SyntaxHighlight? */ new section 02:50:45 [[Fold]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62051&oldid=47063 * YamTokTpaFa * (+23) +WIP and Author Link 02:52:07 [[ ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62052&oldid=52844 * YamTokTpaFa * (+49) +CATS (Why one equal sign, also wtf pre-tags, not code-tags?) 02:53:48 [[Lisp2d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62053&oldid=42053 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 02:54:23 [[Tautologos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62054&oldid=46669 * YamTokTpaFa * (+65) +CATS 02:57:00 [[Talk:2D BF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62055&oldid=43406 * YamTokTpaFa * (+207) /* (suggestion)Shall we move the page into Category:2D BF? */ new section 02:58:01 [[Enigma-2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62056&oldid=36361 * YamTokTpaFa * (+36) +CAT 02:59:23 [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62057&oldid=46413 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 03:00:50 [[Poison]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62058&oldid=43732 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) Please, use Wiki syntax! 03:05:52 [[Point operator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62059&oldid=45584 * YamTokTpaFa * (+20) +CAT (was it good?) 03:08:26 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62060&oldid=61375 * A * (+1) /* List of candidates */ 03:08:47 [[JUSTIF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62061&oldid=38972 * YamTokTpaFa * (+483) Help, why can't I use pre and code together?! This is DEFINITELY WEIRD! 03:09:15 [[Alphuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62062&oldid=58589 * YamTokTpaFa * (+22) +CAT 03:12:55 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62063&oldid=62060 * A * (-9) /* List of candidates */ 03:15:25 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62064&oldid=61986 * A * (+61) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 03:21:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62065&oldid=62064 * A * (+102) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 03:22:07 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62066&oldid=62065 * A * (+0) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 03:30:12 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62067&oldid=61984 * A * (-22) /* I/O Instructions */ 03:45:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:46:11 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:47:55 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62068&oldid=62067 * A * (+58) /* Possible with adjustments */ 03:49:24 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:59:45 * oerjan looks at YamTokTpaFa's list of edits and runs away screaming 04:00:14 Does the wiki have a preview button? 04:00:25 yes 04:01:42 (that's not relevant to my screaming, though) 04:02:40 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62069&oldid=62063 * A * (+0) /* List of candidates */ 04:15:59 shachaf: Yes; use accesskey+P (on Firefox (at least the first I have), "accesskey" is ALT+SHIFT) 04:20:03 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:32:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62070&oldid=62066 * A * (+311) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 04:32:31 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62071&oldid=62070 * A * (-24) /* Operations */ 04:40:00 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62072&oldid=62071 * A * (+95) /* Operations */ 04:41:02 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62073&oldid=62072 * A * (+125) /* Operations */ 04:41:59 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62074&oldid=62073 * A * (-532) /* Operations */ 05:05:13 [[Meander/Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62075&oldid=40143 * YamTokTpaFa * (+30) +CAT 05:11:22 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:12:52 [[Hanoiing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62076&oldid=51749 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 05:13:27 [[Humo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62077&oldid=46481 * YamTokTpaFa * (+25) +CAT 05:39:58 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Quuxplusone * New user account 05:42:00 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62078&oldid=62029 * Quuxplusone * (+218) /* Introductions */ 06:42:29 I played GURPS game today, and managed to defeat the shape shifter, and made a covered pit trap which helped even though they didn't fall in the pit (they noticed and tried to fly over, but the anti-magic over the pit untransformed them and they can't fly so they are now falling, but they still continued in the same direction so ended up going over the pit anyways, but we were waiting in a nearby doorway and attacked them anyways) 06:44:32 (And then someone following them fell into the pit, and a spell that was on them was cancelled) 06:53:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62079&oldid=62074 * A * (+431) Add a discovery 06:55:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62080&oldid=62079 * A * (+41) /* An interesting discovery */ 06:57:53 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62081&oldid=62080 * A * (+82) /* An interesting discovery */ 07:18:16 And, I think a order like 1,7,2,6,3,5,4 for the values of Huffman codes can be abbreviated because each step makes the range narrow. 07:43:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:46:10 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:56:35 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62082&oldid=62068 * A * (+92) /* Common Algorithms */ 07:59:30 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62083&oldid=62082 * A * (+98) /* Swapping two values */ 08:03:00 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62084&oldid=62083 * A * (+59) /* Swapping two values */ 08:04:01 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62085&oldid=62081 * A * (+55) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 08:04:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62086&oldid=62085 * A * (-287) /* Operations */ 08:21:39 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62087&oldid=62086 * A * (+148) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 08:26:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:29:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62088&oldid=62087 * A * (+128) /* Operations */ 09:11:50 -!- atslash has joined. 09:13:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 09:44:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:44:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 09:56:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:00:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62089&oldid=62088 * Helen * (+439) /* An interesting discovery */ Nice discovery 10:00:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62090&oldid=62089 * A * (-418) Simplify instruction set 10:03:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:14:25 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62091&oldid=62090 * A * (+14) It is always better to let the users choose what they want. 10:19:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62092&oldid=62091 * A * (-80) Not language spec 10:20:03 -!- Sgeo has joined. 10:24:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:30:34 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Souvik Maji * New user account 10:37:26 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62093&oldid=62078 * Souvik Maji * (+206) introducing myself 10:39:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62094&oldid=62093 * Souvik Maji * (+6) 10:54:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:08:06 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:34:07 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:37:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:37:15 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:35:14 -!- FreeFull has joined. 12:53:38 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62095&oldid=62084 * A * (+7) /* Swapping two values */ 12:59:59 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 13:03:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 13:51:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:54:33 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:02:05 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 14:05:40 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:13:29 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62096&oldid=62092 * A * (+6) grm 14:14:35 [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62097&oldid=61010 * A * (+73) 14:15:52 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62098&oldid=60706 * A * (+149) 14:25:47 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62099&oldid=62095 * A * (+152) /* Possible */ 14:37:43 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62100&oldid=62099 * A * (+21) /* Unproven */ 14:38:08 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62101&oldid=62100 * A * (-21) /* Unproven */ 14:41:32 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62102&oldid=62101 * A * (+197) /* Looping counter */ 14:43:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:46:18 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 14:56:14 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62103&oldid=62102 * A * (-10) /* Possible */ 15:31:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:26:42 -!- lldd_ has joined. 16:47:03 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:51:06 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 16:54:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:00:19 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JacobHodgkins * New user account 17:05:34 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:09:48 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62104&oldid=62094 * JacobHodgkins * (+509) /* Introductions */ 17:20:14 -!- moei has joined. 17:30:30 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:32:47 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 17:35:40 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:49:59 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 17:52:17 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:55:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:00:41 -!- adu has joined. 18:14:26 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:26:51 -!- MilkyWay90 has joined. 18:27:00 Hello 18:27:50 #join nationstates 18:27:56 Whoops 18:39:32 -!- MilkyWay90 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:01:33 -!- lldd_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:02:03 `smlist 19:02:05 smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 19:35:52 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62105&oldid=62103 * Int-e * (+762) /* Possible with adjustments */ explain character-base I/O only once; add Quine 19:39:41 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62106&oldid=59680 * Int-e * (+560) add bitch quine 19:40:55 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62107&oldid=62105 * Int-e * (-486) /* Quine */ replace by link 19:47:42 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62108&oldid=62107 * Int-e * (+18) /* ROT13 */ steal formatting trick from Quine page 19:54:29 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62109&oldid=62108 * Int-e * (+15) /* Quine */ fix ugly-looking link 20:02:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62110&oldid=62096 * Int-e * (+286) /* An interesting discovery */ portability 20:11:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:33:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:51:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:11:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:11:49 [[Compose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62111&oldid=62042 * Koyodyne * (+549) 21:18:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:35:55 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:54:50 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:01:27 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 22:44:44 [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62112&oldid=59798 * Quuxplusone * (+100) 23:00:28 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:02:40 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:05:20 -!- aloril_ has joined. 23:10:11 [[Box]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62113 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+899) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=}} '''''' is an esoteric programming language based on box placement. ==Execution== The program is just the initial state of the interpreter. That sta..." 23:10:51 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62114&oldid=62113 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+2) /* Boxes */ 23:13:29 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62115&oldid=62114 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1) /* Boxes */ 23:14:21 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62116&oldid=62115 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-5) /* Boxes */ 23:17:20 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62117&oldid=62116 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+39) /* Boxes */ 23:18:09 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62118&oldid=62117 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+6) /* Boxes */ 23:18:48 [[Box]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62119&oldid=62118 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Boxes */ 23:20:31 [[Box]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62120&oldid=62119 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+15) /* Boxes */ 23:21:59 web.a: points 1.05, score 25.42, rank 12/47 23:34:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:38:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:38:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 2019-05-13: 00:03:07 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:09:08 Can you connect a Raspberry Pi computer to a PC by the use of a RS-232 port? 00:36:02 -!- unlimiter has joined. 00:36:51 IIRC, it has the usual low-voltage serial port thing, one that uses 0V/3.3V logic levels. 00:37:08 So you would need a little bit of electronics if you wanted to convert it to RS-232. 00:37:58 (I've used a USB serial cable to talk to a Raspberry Pi.) 00:42:58 (One of those that provide 3.3V level serial pins, like https://www.adafruit.com/product/954 ) 00:57:02 correct 00:57:17 or you could add a full voltage USB to RS-232 adapter to the RPi 00:59:55 this is my rpi project today https://imgur.com/a/HqtqGJd 01:00:08 ugly, but it will go in a box 01:00:38 it connects to a HF radio and can be used to send/receive digital messages 01:00:53 includes a GPS receiver for time synchronization 01:01:01 and a little eink status display 01:02:03 I broke the SD card slot in my RPi. :/ 01:02:43 F 01:02:44 how? 01:06:52 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 01:06:55 I don't quite remember what I was doing. It's probably broken in a fixable way, since it still works if I push down on the card. Just some of the plastic bits broke off. 01:08:24 (Haven't looked into it more since I don't actually have any specific use for the thing.) 01:39:44 Now I added a option into ffpng to try to optimize transparent pixels (add "t1" as a command-line argument). You may wish to use ff-transopt first, though. 01:41:52 fizzie: I got a Pi Zero W for $5 the other day 01:41:57 Microcenter has an ongoing deal for them 01:42:17 I have no use for it just yet, but I think I will come up with something soon 01:42:24 weird thing is, they were selling the non-wifi version for the same price 01:42:35 i don't know of any advantage of the non-wifi model 01:43:01 it is kind of silly to spend $5 on a computer and then rightaway more than that on a USB wifi adapter and an OTG cable 01:43:44 I was going to write a fancy synthesizer and run it on a Raspberry Pi. 01:44:03 But then the fancy synthesizer part turned out to be the main tricky part so I haven't gotten around to the second bit yet. 01:46:20 What's a good way to make APIs forward-compatible? 01:46:49 I hear Windows passes a struct whose first member is its sizeof, so they can grow it later. 01:46:54 Do you like this? 01:48:02 For some uses, that can help. SQLite instead puts a version number at first in a struct, rather than its size. 01:54:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:02:10 shachaf: protos for APIs twh hth hand 02:04:43 fizzie: dth 02:06:05 Maybe just make everything talk to everything else over gRPC. 02:06:59 should system calls take protos 02:07:07 that's the only reasonable thing to do 02:09:25 Oh no, template int foo(T) { return 5; } doesn't correctly specialize to int foo(void) { return 5; } 02:16:10 the thing of (void) meaning a 0-ary function is strictly C not C++ 02:18:40 I thought it was valid C++, just not required like in C? 02:18:59 Does it not work in C++? Whether or not it works, I suppose that still it can make sense it doesn't specialize, since it is a different kind of notation. 02:19:06 (Anyway obviously it would be terrible if that specialization actually happened. But, y'know.) 02:27:23 -!- unlimiter has joined. 02:35:50 -!- tromp has joined. 02:37:48 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 02:40:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:59:31 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:00:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 03:01:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 03:41:02 web.a: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-35) 04:04:40 -!- tromp has joined. 04:05:52 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62121&oldid=62110 * A * (+7) Remove a section that is completely useless 04:09:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 05:06:56 I wrote a document describing how I would want to improve the rules of Magic: the Gathering 05:07:11 Didn't you write one a long time ago? 05:08:17 I think I did write some things before, but now I put a lot of things together, and also request comments 05:08:29 (if there are any comments) 05:18:00 They should implement in some NNTP client software, options for use with Unusenet. (It still works without, but they may be options you want to enable or disable; if used with Usenet, those options would have no effect.) 05:52:39 -!- tromp has joined. 05:57:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:12:16 -!- MDude has joined. 06:34:31 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:39:30 Make up a Aura enchantment with four abilities (and no others): enchant permanent, persist, undying, and afterlife 2. How much mana cost would it be worth? 06:52:02 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:03:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:05:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:07:49 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:48:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:48:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:13:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:29:49 -!- tromp has joined. 10:13:33 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:14:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62122&oldid=62121 * A * (+352) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 10:15:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62123&oldid=62122 * A * (+37) 10:54:12 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:03:38 -!- RSPKT6637 has joined. 11:31:19 [[UnreadabIe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62124 * A * (+239) Created page with "[[UnreadabIe]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] made by [[User:A]]. It is a substitution of [[Unreadable]]. (" is substituted by .) Catego..." 11:33:50 [[UnreadabIe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62125&oldid=62124 * A * (+968) 11:38:01 -!- RSPKT6637 has quit. 11:38:10 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:38:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:40:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:42:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62126&oldid=62123 * A * (+267) /* Operations */ 11:44:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62127&oldid=62126 * A * (+322) /* Operations */ 11:47:20 -!- westonian has joined. 11:48:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62128&oldid=62127 * A * (+170) /* Operations */ 11:50:24 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62129&oldid=62128 * A * (+145) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */ 11:51:49 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62130&oldid=62129 * A * (+123) /* Operations */ 11:52:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62131&oldid=62130 * A * (+14) /* Operations */ 11:54:17 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62132&oldid=62131 * A * (+111) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */ 12:06:06 westonian.Sookie: points 7.90, score 47.20, rank 1/47 12:15:13 Hi all, Sookie is just 136 characters of pure BF, no shorthand. Don't know if anyone's sill interested in playing BFJoust, but if they are, game on. 12:34:17 westonian: I think you have a good chance of attracting some discussion if you stay around a bit 12:35:37 (the channel tends to be active in the evenings, european time, so maybe 4 hours from now.) 12:37:47 westonian: did you write this by hand or did you use any automatic approach like genetic programming or the like? 12:46:53 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:47:11 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.1 - http://znc.in). 12:50:17 I guess we'll never know 12:51:01 Hmm it's the best I could do. Maybe they'll be back. 12:51:44 [[Compose]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62133&oldid=62111 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT (this IS about the language: ADD INTO [[:Category:Languages]] please) 12:56:39 -!- gerzytet_ has joined. 12:56:39 -!- gerzytet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:13:49 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 13:14:20 -!- Frater_EST has left. 14:05:22 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62134&oldid=62132 * A * (+447) /* Sketch: A Stack Machine */ 14:08:59 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62135&oldid=62134 * A * (+5) Failed attempt again 14:22:14 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62136&oldid=62135 * A * (+380) Inform that there are still more computational models out there. 14:23:07 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62137&oldid=62136 * A * (+32) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */ 14:31:45 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62138&oldid=62109 * A * (-69) 14:34:25 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62139&oldid=62138 * A * (+197) 14:35:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62140&oldid=62139 * A * (+8) Specify syntax error instruction set 14:39:01 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62141&oldid=62140 * A * (+54) Copy your programs for you 14:40:49 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62142&oldid=62141 * A * (+25) /* Cat program */ 14:45:46 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62143&oldid=62142 * A * (+227) /* Possible */ 15:12:15 -!- unlimiter has joined. 15:16:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:27:12 -!- copumpkin has joined. 15:52:13 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 16:33:18 -!- moei has joined. 17:01:33 I hate c++ 17:02:13 did you know that the anonymous function [&](){/*...*/} is guaranteed nothrow? 17:02:24 no, why is that 17:10:09 hmm, apparently it isn't in the test case 17:15:33 int main () {std::thread foo([&](){throw std::runtime_error("argh!");}); foo.join();} 17:16:02 this ends with a segmentation fault, not with calling std::terminate 17:16:15 why? 17:16:19 whyyyyyyy 17:16:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62144&oldid=62137 * Helen * (-5) /* [Unsuccessful] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ I'm still working on it silently behind the scenes :) 17:18:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62145&oldid=62144 * Helen * (+168) /* The compilation probably failed */ 17:24:17 Not for me: http://ix.io/1IXs 17:24:38 (Sorry for the indentation though.) 17:27:07 `thanks fizzie 17:27:08 Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie. 17:27:39 That helps, I just have to avoid having any unhandled exceptions inside my threads 17:29:19 or convince people to get a more recent compiler? 17:29:36 g++ (GCC) 4.9.2 20150212 (Red Hat 4.9.2-6) 17:30:17 . o O ( I wonder at what point any sequence of the special characters []{}&^%$#*+-/<>= will be valid C++ ) 17:30:28 oh and () 17:42:22 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:47:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:52:23 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:52:24 -!- atslash has joined. 17:56:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:30:29 [[WebFuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62146 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+673) Created page with "'''WebFuck''' is a [[Brainfuck]] created by [[User:Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn]] extencion that can be used in frontend web development. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Com..." 18:38:44 [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62147&oldid=62146 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+432) 18:40:41 [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62148&oldid=62147 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Selectors */ 18:55:01 did you know that exceptions are scow 18:55:08 everyone knows that 18:55:13 that's why we need herbceptions 18:55:44 hey 19:03:43 `olist 1163 19:03:44 olist 1163: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 19:37:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:39:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: No route to host). 19:40:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:51:36 [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62149&oldid=62148 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+440) 19:55:07 [[Small]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62150&oldid=55704 * Get52 * (+8) my old website is down currently, putting a temporary link here 20:01:17 -!- unlimiter has joined. 20:25:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:31:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:53:27 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 21:07:27 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:07:38 -!- j-bot has joined. 21:35:04 -!- unlimiter has joined. 21:49:55 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:26:38 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 22:43:14 [[WebFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62151&oldid=62149 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1562) Blanked the page 22:47:26 What mechanism should I use for error handling? 22:47:34 denial 22:48:11 that sounds a lot like exceptions tdnh 22:48:33 Then maybe hope instead. 22:48:54 well, at least it's not errno 22:49:16 What do you think of the Zig error set type? https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Errors 22:49:22 I meant to say "Do you like this?". 22:51:11 I guess one question is, should errors be more than an integer? 22:51:42 If they have strings or some arbitrary-length data then you might need to worry about memory management for them which is scow. 23:01:36 What's scow about that? 23:01:55 Worrying about memory management? 23:02:16 It's pretty complicated, is all, compared to just returning an integer or something. 23:02:43 If memory management is annoying, isn't that memory management's fault? 23:03:22 I mean, my program is running on a computer with physical. That's a little bit annoying compared to an abstract Turing machine or whatever, but that's how it is. 23:03:47 physical hardware 23:03:52 kmc: <3 23:04:10 Oh, you're still using *physical* hardware 23:04:13 hi int-e 23:04:16 kmc: (for that reply) 23:04:21 :) 23:04:36 I mean, in practice I've mostly been using denial. 23:04:42 I think it's maybe not so bad. 23:04:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:22 . o O ( obligatory fun (but completely unoriginal) pun: denial is a big river in India. ) 23:05:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:05:50 Wait, which denial are *you* talking about? 23:06:25 I deny talking about denial. 23:19:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:36:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:39:10 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 23:39:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:39:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:45:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:52:22 You know how you type `reset` and the terminal gets reset but it takes a long time? 23:52:46 Did you know it's spending that time doing sleep(1);? 23:53:59 no 23:54:08 probably because some old terminal needs time to reset? 23:54:15 Probably. 23:54:23 And now we all suffer the consequences. 23:54:44 whatever 23:54:47 patch it if you don't like it 23:55:01 maybe i will 23:55:05 ok 23:55:06 just don't mess up your terminal in the first place ;-) 23:55:17 i rewrote /usr/bin/time because i didn't like it 23:55:20 oh? 23:55:21 and some other commands 23:55:38 i wish i could rewrite all the things i don't like in my life 23:55:41 now life is much better 23:55:42 like me 23:56:32 you could rewrite more cats into your life imo 23:57:15 `` cat cat cat 23:57:16 cat: cat: No such file or directory \ cat: cat: No such file or directory 23:57:20 aww. 23:57:33 `? cat 23:57:34 Cats are cool, but should be illegal. 23:58:27 http://slbkbs.org/tmp/tym.png 23:58:40 you can't get output like this out of a regular /usr/bin/time 23:58:47 you gotta get artisanal handcrafted software 23:58:56 i can't have a cat here 23:59:01 apartment is not cat proof 23:59:18 shachaf: did you write it from scratch or modify /usr/bin/time 23:59:23 cat-proof - didn't parse. 23:59:25 i wrote it from scratch 23:59:43 cats know everything about doing things "from scratch" 23:59:51 i like that you didn't have the patience to wait 1 second for the demo 2019-05-14: 00:00:06 well, i wanted to show off how it prints the signal when the program is killed 00:00:13 otherwise it prints the exit status 00:00:48 anyway why doesn't my shell save the time and rusage of every command i run and show it to me if i ask 00:00:51 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 00:01:03 ah 00:01:34 answer: because shells are scow and run inside a terminal for no great reason so they can't have a good ui 00:02:07 you might as well ask why my shell doesn't let me have multiple commands running at once without interleaving their output. same answer. 00:02:08 whatever 00:02:15 I need to find something to do to not feel awful :( 00:02:25 that's true 00:03:36 * int-e should go for a walk outside. 00:03:43 maybe get really mad at some people on the internet? 00:03:55 man, that's a completely unconstructive thing to say 00:04:01 not sure what the point was 00:05:24 idk 00:05:48 i've been an asshole to you enough times for no reason, you can have a turn 00:06:02 but i really haven't been getting really mad at people on the internet very much lately 00:07:09 i haven't left the house today, maybe i should change that 00:07:40 yes 00:09:44 I once had the idea of a shell that would make seperate onscreen "windows" for each comand you ran 00:10:01 Then I realized that's just called a terminal 00:10:26 I think it's more like, the terminal and the shell are integrate, and each command gets its own region of the terminal that you can scroll and search separately and so on. 00:10:32 And maybe its own pty. 00:10:37 integrated 00:11:18 this wireless keyboard I bought less than two weeks ago says it's tested on debian 3.1, redhat 9.0, ubuntu 8.10 and fedora 7.0 00:12:15 Debian Stable is already at 3.2! So out of date. 00:12:27 the danish word for week is pronounced like uwu 00:12:56 What's the Danish word for "fternooner"? 00:12:57 how is it spelled 00:13:27 "Step1: Keep your PC on, and be sure the keyboard is full of power." 00:14:09 uge, apparently 00:18:33 I feel like I should stop using libc as much as possible on Linux. 00:23:13 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:35:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:41:21 [[User:ZirconiumX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62152&oldid=26724 * ZirconiumX * (-29) 01:10:26 . o O ( int-e seems to be in denial about the difference between Egypt and India ) 01:10:37 oerjan: so I am 01:11:32 Pr maybe I mixed up Nile and Ganges. You pick. 01:11:59 (that is actually closer to the truth) 01:12:34 You mixed up Egypt and India, and you mixed up Nile and Ganges. And also you thought the Ganges was in Egypt. 01:13:49 no. 01:16:17 whoa, <2^70 chosen prefix collision on SHA1 01:16:31 `append_wisdom shachaf We don't like this. 01:16:32 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: append_wisdom: not found 01:16:35 oops 01:16:48 `learn_append shachaf We don't like this. 01:16:50 Learned 'shachaf': Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this. 01:17:01 Wait, I ask too many questions? 01:17:25 Uh, s/I/did I/ 01:18:25 shachamnesia 01:18:56 my addition isn't _really_ related to the previous sentence btw 01:19:18 `? zzo38 01:19:19 zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem. 01:19:38 except in so far as it implies you ask one _particular_ question too much. 01:21:40 hmm "The SHA1 hashes are large enough that the odds of accidental hash collision are negligible for projects that could be handled by the human race. The known weaknesses in SHA1 are currently still not practical to attack, and Mercurial will switch to SHA256 hashing before that becomes a realistic concern." 01:22:15 oerjan: Well, that's not too many questions, at least. 01:22:24 Bit late for that. 01:22:24 It may be too many instances of the same question. 01:22:53 `? hg 01:22:54 hg is dark alchemy used by oerjan to fix things. Like most alchemy, it involves drinking mercury. 01:23:23 hg + u = hug 01:24:36 hmm, did I miss this or forget? https://github.blog/2017-03-20-sha-1-collision-detection-on-github-com/ 01:26:05 Did you miss this? 01:29:54 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 01:30:24 the git folks are visibly working on it at least. 01:30:46 I wish people hadn't given up on version control as soon as git came out. 01:30:59 There are all sorts of things git isn't great at. 01:34:08 I have this strange feeling of deja vu right now. 01:39:07 Yep. 01:39:21 I keep saying these things and people keep using git anyway. How dare they? 01:39:52 (People including me.) 01:39:54 the good is the enemy of the perfect 01:41:20 or, using your favorite phrase: git is tg 01:42:55 Do you like io_uring? 01:42:58 I do! 02:03:48 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:24:50 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 02:25:08 -!- Frater_EST has left. 02:43:44 -!- westonian has joined. 02:44:17 -!- xkapastel has joined. 02:46:10 Just checked the logs, " westonian: did you write this by hand or did you use any automatic approach like genetic programming or the like?" 02:46:31 Yes it was a generic algorithm. 02:48:36 I first wrote it 5 years ago for this https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/37137/15982 02:52:46 -!- westonian_ has joined. 02:52:55 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:55:50 At the time I couldn't cope with the shorthand. I was attempting to expand which meant I couldn't train against NyurokiMagicalFantasy and a couple of others. 02:56:39 This time I did that and evolved against all bots and using mostly correct Markov scoring 02:59:44 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 03:01:20 -!- Frater_EST has left. 03:03:41 -!- westonian_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:57:55 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62153&oldid=62143 * A * (+27) /* Binary to unary conversion */ 03:59:49 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62154&oldid=62145 * A * (+7) /* The compilation probably failed */ 04:00:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62155&oldid=62154 * A * (+7) /* Bitch might be Turing-incomplete */ 04:03:05 well, they're bad at IRC, but they seem to lurk a lot on stack exchange 04:09:23 [[A:;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62156&oldid=58819 * A * (+195) 04:29:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:23:54 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:27:38 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:31:07 -!- MDude has joined. 05:31:30 -!- MDude has quit (Client Quit). 05:32:09 -!- MDude has joined. 06:27:56 [[Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62157&oldid=49810 * Total Vacuum * (+13) 06:28:08 [[Uf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62158&oldid=61151 * Total Vacuum * (+13) 07:08:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:14:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:56:39 -!- FraterEST has joined. 07:56:47 -!- FraterEST has left. 09:03:11 -!- atslash has joined. 09:04:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:12:19 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 09:18:29 -!- erdic has joined. 10:05:26 [[A:;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62159&oldid=62156 * A * (+5) 10:09:37 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62160&oldid=61915 * A * (+13) 10:09:52 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62161&oldid=61482 * A * (+14) 10:25:38 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 10:28:11 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:44:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 10:45:35 [[Talk:Bf core]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62162&oldid=57894 * A * (-166) Blanked the page 11:12:11 [[Owk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62163&oldid=43315 * YamTokTpaFa * (+24) +CAT 11:38:23 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:39:41 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:39:42 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:00:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:02:20 [[Talk:Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62164&oldid=62162 * Total Vacuum * (+310) 12:10:54 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:11:06 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62165&oldid=62155 * A * (+966) Impossible: Bootstrapping 12:11:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62166&oldid=62165 * A * (+1) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:17:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:19:29 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62167&oldid=62166 * A * (+1127) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:23:58 -!- Cale has joined. 12:25:15 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62168&oldid=62153 * A * (+235) /* Impossible */ 12:25:46 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62169&oldid=62168 * A * (+0) Bootstrapping is impossible 12:26:40 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62170&oldid=62169 * A * (-15) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */ 12:29:21 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62171&oldid=62170 * A * (+28) /* Impossible */ 12:31:34 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62172&oldid=62171 * A * (+129) A lot of programs are impossible 12:33:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62173&oldid=62167 * A * (+86) /* Possible with Adjustments */ 12:42:07 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62174&oldid=62173 * A * (+104) /* Possible with Adjustments */ 12:42:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62175&oldid=62174 * A * (-18) /* Possible with Adjustments */ 12:51:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:52:22 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:52:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:01:14 [[Talk:Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62176&oldid=62164 * Total Vacuum * (+4) 13:13:02 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:31:19 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:01:33 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62177&oldid=62172 * A * (+104) bitch only has unbounded integers supported, and is thus strong and static typed. 14:01:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:07:10 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62178&oldid=62177 * A * (-3) 14:07:30 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62179&oldid=62178 * A * (+9) 14:08:19 [[Keys]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62180 * A * (+123) Created page with "[[Keys]] is a joke language created by [[User:A]]. [[Category:Joke languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]" 14:10:00 [[Keys]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62181&oldid=62180 * A * (+267) 14:12:26 [[Keys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62182&oldid=62181 * A * (+329) 14:14:15 [[Keys]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62183&oldid=62182 * A * (+318) /* Example programs */ 14:17:08 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62184&oldid=61707 * A * (+24) /* General languages */ 14:21:27 [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62185&oldid=42996 * A * (+399) /* Sample programs */ 14:24:07 [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62186&oldid=62185 * A * (+8) /* Computational class */ 14:25:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yper * New user account 14:25:53 [[Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62187&oldid=62186 * A * (-154) Nope 14:30:50 [[Talk:Basilisk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62188 * A * (+277) Ask a question 14:31:01 [[Talk:Basilisk]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62189&oldid=62188 * A * (-77) /* Process of executing a program */ 14:41:14 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62190&oldid=62104 * Yper * (+418) /* Introductions */ 14:41:46 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62191&oldid=60731 * Yper * (+117) /* Interpreters in plain C */ 14:42:17 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62192&oldid=62191 * Yper * (+111) /* JIT Interpreters */ 14:45:18 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62193&oldid=62190 * Yper * (+0) /* Introductions */ 14:47:05 [[Talk:Bf core]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62194&oldid=62176 * Total Vacuum * (+89) 16:01:27 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:13:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:42:15 -!- moei has joined. 16:59:48 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:00:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:13:50 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:04 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 17:19:55 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyaqGDQXUAAwYQo.jpg 17:21:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:31:45 wtf is a zig 17:34:55 for great justice 17:36:15 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:40:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:52:32 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:56:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:02:00 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:57:40 -!- sleepnap has joined. 20:00:10 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:06:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:08:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:41:38 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:00:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:24 -!- tromp has joined. 21:16:17 -!- imode has joined. 21:36:37 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 21:39:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:54:56 -!- adu has joined. 21:59:46 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:13:11 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 22:16:47 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:18:17 -!- MDude has joined. 22:18:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:27:46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDeFb4Jc2VA 22:38:07 is that kpop 22:40:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:48:20 -!- tromp has joined. 22:58:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:27:09 -!- tromp has joined. 23:31:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:32:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:35:37 how bad of an idea is this, twh 23:35:48 #if THING; if (...) { ... }; #else; if (...) { ... }; #endif; else { ... } 23:37:37 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:40:28 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:40:34 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:51:20 bad 23:59:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2019-05-15: 00:17:43 -!- imode has joined. 00:29:37 -!- xvnvx has joined. 00:31:31 -!- westonian has joined. 00:40:47 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:41:03 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 00:57:45 -!- FreeFull has quit. 01:06:21 -!- tromp has joined. 01:11:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 01:38:40 So what's the word "scow" all about? 01:39:19 Is it autological or heterological? 01:39:57 @wn scow 01:39:58 *** "scow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 01:39:58 scow 01:39:58 n 1: any of various flat-bottomed boats with sloping ends 01:39:58 2: a barge carrying bulk materials in an open hold 01:40:00 tdnh 01:52:39 autological imo 01:52:54 it's some injoke from the gmail team at google that shachaf has made it his life's mission to propagate 01:53:01 it means "bad" 01:53:55 oh no 01:54:00 excessive information 01:54:06 It's from the Gmail team? 01:54:19 *thinking emoji* 01:54:54 emoji can think now? 01:55:02 are they turing complete twnh 02:13:12 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:14:43 adu: no, it's uh... enka i think? 02:15:20 jpop 02:15:28 may or may not be classified as enka, but definitely from japan yeah 02:17:45 name of song is "giant boobs song" 02:54:26 -!- tromp has joined. 02:58:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:42:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:46:17 -!- rodgort has joined. 04:02:37 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62195&oldid=62179 * A * (+133) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */ 04:02:52 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62196&oldid=62195 * A * (-2) /* Unproven */ 04:03:34 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62197&oldid=62196 * A * (-131) Undo revision 62196 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 04:42:28 -!- tromp has joined. 04:46:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:58:35 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:08:00 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:37:09 -!- tromp has joined. 05:41:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 06:55:16 -!- tromp has joined. 07:22:01 -!- iconmaster has joined. 07:23:25 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:26:21 -!- lambdabot has joined. 07:33:07 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 07:33:40 -!- adu has joined. 07:33:54 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 07:34:20 -!- adu has joined. 07:34:41 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 07:35:10 -!- adu has joined. 07:35:27 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 07:35:55 -!- adu has joined. 07:36:14 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 07:36:40 -!- adu has joined. 07:37:01 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit). 08:40:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:43:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:47:43 -!- iconmaster_ has joined. 08:51:07 -!- iconmaster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:51:46 -!- tromp has joined. 10:20:26 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 610 seconds). 10:25:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:49:05 [[Ephermal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62198 * A * (+162) Created page with "[[Ephermal]] is an [[esoteric programming language]] that has variables that do not last long. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]" 10:52:47 [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62199&oldid=62198 * A * (+405) 11:01:50 [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62200&oldid=62199 * A * (+1286) /* Syntax */ 11:05:16 [[Ephermal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62201&oldid=62200 * A * (-1) /* Computational class */ 11:06:45 [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62202&oldid=61640 * A * (-14) Definer is not a WIP; the author ignored it. 11:16:40 [[NIP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62203 * A * (+114) Created page with "[[NIP]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2019]][[Category:Unimplemented]]" 11:17:26 -!- mniip has joined. 11:22:50 [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62204&oldid=62203 * A * (+908) 11:23:01 [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62205&oldid=62204 * A * (+4) /* Simple looping adder */ 11:23:20 [[NIP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62206&oldid=62205 * A * (+5) /* Hello, world! program */ 11:28:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:41:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:42:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:43:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:21:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62207&oldid=62197 * A * (-130) Infobox seems too long 12:22:19 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62208&oldid=62207 * A * (+48) 12:39:16 -!- adu has joined. 12:43:04 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62209&oldid=62208 * A * (+87) Clarify 13:07:39 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62210&oldid=62209 * A * (+1541) /* Possible with adjustments */ 13:08:23 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62211&oldid=62210 * A * (+67) /* 99 bottles of beer */ 13:09:15 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62212&oldid=62211 * A * (-24) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */ 13:34:52 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62213&oldid=62212 * A * (+24) /* Unproven */ 13:38:45 -!- atslash has joined. 15:50:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:51:09 [[User:BradensEsolangs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62214&oldid=60451 * BradensEsolangs * (+68) 15:53:53 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: CHEAPIE! What did you do to the bouncer?! :P (jk)). 15:54:29 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:55:00 -!- iconmaster_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:55:28 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 15:55:28 -!- rdococ has joined. 15:58:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:03:41 hello folks 16:03:44 what's happening? 16:04:04 MECHANIC: SOMEBODY SET UP US THE BOMB. 16:04:10 Sorry, could not resist. 16:06:56 WE GET SIGNAL 16:07:43 lol 16:15:25 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 16:19:19 Does anyone know why a .php file I uploaded to a Windows server might give a http error 500? I'm assuming I need to put something in the web.config but I didn't find anything helpful with Google :-( 16:19:29 Trying to set up a wiki 16:20:10 im not sure 16:20:14 what web server is it? 16:20:28 did you try a very simple hello world .php first? 16:21:23 Not sure yet. I've looked but didn't find out which. I can only access it via Plesk at the moment. 16:22:40 I had a working wiki, but the server (on shared hosting) died. They've moved me to webspace on a new server, but I have to set everything up from scratch. 16:23:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:23:13 Not the world's greatest customer service from the host, but I just want to get the wiki up and running again. 16:24:02 Didn't try a hello world. I just went straight to uploading DokuWiki to the webspace. But I can't run install.php in the browser. 16:57:43 -!- moei has joined. 17:25:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:39:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:52:37 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 17:56:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:57:51 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:16:51 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:22:08 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:25:19 -!- fmease has left ("Kicked by @appservice-irc:matrix.org : Idle kick: User has been idle for 30 days."). 18:41:59 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 18:50:29 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:20:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:22:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:38:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:59:24 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:59:50 -!- arseniiv has joined. 21:11:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:12:10 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 21:24:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:27:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:27:45 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 21:39:02 -!- atslash has joined. 21:51:11 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 21:54:15 -!- MDude has joined. 22:53:45 -!- aloril_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:54:22 -!- aloril_ has joined. 23:01:30 -!- uplime has joined. 23:16:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62215&oldid=62193 * Unlimiter * (+525) 23:17:29 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62216&oldid=61556 * Unlimiter * (+118) 23:20:44 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 23:27:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:37:25 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62217&oldid=62216 * Unlimiter * (+295) 23:37:59 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:39:26 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:39:38 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62218&oldid=62217 * Unlimiter * (+16) 23:40:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:41:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:42:25 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:43:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2019-05-16: 00:18:31 -!- FreeFull has quit. 00:32:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:03:14 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62219&oldid=62218 * Unlimiter * (+173) 01:03:42 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62220&oldid=62219 * Unlimiter * (+6) 01:06:37 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62221&oldid=62220 * Unlimiter * (+37) 01:20:02 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62222&oldid=62221 * Unlimiter * (+1539) 01:23:14 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62223&oldid=62222 * Unlimiter * (+8) 01:26:08 [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62224&oldid=60228 * Unlimiter * (+238) 01:26:34 [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62225&oldid=62224 * Unlimiter * (-238) 01:26:58 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62226&oldid=62223 * Unlimiter * (+34) 01:28:15 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62227&oldid=62226 * Unlimiter * (-15) 01:39:34 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62228&oldid=62227 * Unlimiter * (+65) 01:42:49 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62229&oldid=62228 * Unlimiter * (+30) 01:51:38 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62230&oldid=62229 * Unlimiter * (+127) 01:52:05 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62231&oldid=62230 * Unlimiter * (-1) 01:52:21 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62232&oldid=62231 * Unlimiter * (+2) 01:52:32 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62233&oldid=62232 * Unlimiter * (-1) 01:52:39 [[Special:Log/move]] move * HereToAnnoy * moved [[Ephermal]] to [[Ephemeral]]: Fix typo by A 01:52:43 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62236&oldid=62233 * Unlimiter * (+1) 01:53:12 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62237&oldid=62236 * Unlimiter * (+14) 01:53:27 [[Ephemeral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62238&oldid=62234 * HereToAnnoy * (-67) Remove reference to fixed typo 01:53:59 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62239&oldid=62237 * Unlimiter * (-39) 01:54:34 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62240&oldid=62239 * Unlimiter * (+22) 01:54:47 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62241&oldid=62240 * Unlimiter * (-38) 01:56:02 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62242&oldid=62241 * Unlimiter * (+7) /* Overview */ 02:55:35 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62243&oldid=62242 * Unlimiter * (+52) 02:56:00 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62244&oldid=62243 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Instructions */ 04:02:36 -!- a__ has joined. 04:02:43 -!- tromp has joined. 04:03:16 -!- a__ has left. 04:04:11 -!- A__ has joined. 04:06:28 -!- A__ has quit (Client Quit). 04:07:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:11:00 -!- A__ has joined. 04:11:30 I have not been talking here, so I will post a message just to get used to IRC... please don't mind. 04:11:51 -!- A__ has quit (Client Quit). 06:39:30 https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.10193.pdf 06:39:38 spoilers for the witness hth 07:05:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:44:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:28:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:43:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:13:59 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:52:07 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: Well, would you look at the time. I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.). 09:58:29 -!- grumble has joined. 10:32:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:12:46 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62245&oldid=61896 * RealUndefined * (+475) /* Programs */ real cat program 11:14:02 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62246&oldid=62245 * RealUndefined * (+65) 11:36:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:40:11 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:42:53 i like that name 11:42:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:43:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:08:26 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:13:40 Well, I haven't magically learnt how to play NetHack 12:19:08 Hmm, isn't that the game that you start, and then after pressing a couple of keys you get an ASCII tombstone? Never saw the point in that ;-) 12:19:35 i really want to learn cataclysm dda 12:19:40 but i am way too lazy 12:22:18 Dance Dance Activism, a prequel to Dance Dance Revolution 12:23:12 haha 12:25:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 12:30:03 i mean, a roguelike where you can ride a bicycle. what more can you wish for 12:30:20 roguecycle 12:43:07 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 12:43:59 A few years ago for a Ludum Dare some uni friends made a roguelike with playable classes "Dog", "Miner", "Attorney", and playable races "Quarterling" and "Dutch" 12:46:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:47:24 I think they decided this by asking me while I was working on a submarine explorer game which I never really got anywhere with 12:47:30 i would totally play that 12:47:51 dutch attorney sounds like an op character 12:47:54 https://github.com/HackSoc/LudumDare29 12:48:13 a quarterling attorney has only half a leg to stand on? 12:48:55 A quarterling is like a halfling but more 12:49:28 There's also "clog maker", "chef", "huntsman", and "tourist" classes 12:49:59 Yeah I think I got "quarterling" just fine. But that wasn't remotely funny. 12:50:34 Tourists are scary (at least the Discworld kind. The plural may be a bit of a stretch though.) 12:51:12 @google Twoflower 12:51:13 https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Twoflower 13:03:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:18:01 i am interested in what people do with location or activity based games 13:25:24 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:28:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:30:29 What do you mean by that? 13:31:14 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62247&oldid=62244 * A * (+192) Draft a mystery language 13:32:10 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62248&oldid=62247 * A * (+139) Add an example... 13:33:21 pokemon go/ingress/delta t/jurassic park world/... 13:34:38 Ah, right 13:34:50 I stopped playing Pokemon Go because I couldn't decide a team and then my inventory got fulk 13:34:53 *full 13:35:32 i dislike it for being neither a good pokemon game nor a good location based game 13:36:14 games living solely on the underlying IP are not my cup of tea 13:37:18 niantic is pretty bad at making good games 13:40:15 i stumbled upon orna by accident. i like the idea, but it is lacking content imho 13:42:18 i'd love having a framework for something similar 13:43:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62249&oldid=62248 * A * (+894) /* Syntax */ 13:44:20 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62250&oldid=62249 * A * (+85) Add inspiration 13:47:05 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62251&oldid=62250 * A * (+95) /* Syntax */ 13:48:18 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62252&oldid=62251 * A * (-20) /* Syntax */ 13:53:12 [[Talk]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62253 * A * (+1411) Created page with "Believe it or not, it is inspired by part of [[User talk:Helen|Helen's user talk]]. {{infobox proglang |name=Talk |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:A]] |year=:Category:20..." 13:53:17 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62254&oldid=62252 * A * (-1385) 14:35:05 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 14:37:37 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62255&oldid=62254 * Unlimiter * (-43) 15:17:07 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:18:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:23:56 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:03:27 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:08:25 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:20:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:58:32 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:01:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:11 -!- sleepnap has joined. 17:09:09 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:20:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:45:31 `ls 17:45:33 ​- \ :#,_@ \ bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ f \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ izash.c \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quinor \ quotes \ share \ src \ test2 \ testfile \ tmflry \ tmp \ wisdom 17:45:53 `ls / 17:45:54 bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ sbin \ srv \ sys \ tmp \ usr 17:45:59 `cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/spec_store_bypass 17:46:00 cat: /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/spec_store_bypass: No such file or directory 17:58:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:59 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 18:04:53 meh, all those mitigations... 18:05:08 rain1: did you see https://make-linux-fast-again.com/ 18:06:05 ...instead of all these mitigations how about we don't run untrusted code... sure, it means disabling javascript in the browser but what possible harm can that do?!?! 18:06:30 Do you like this? 18:06:36 no 18:06:39 I wanna cry. 18:06:46 web.test: points -7.45, score 15.49, rank 35/47 18:07:08 do you yearn for the old days when everything was predictable 18:07:08 Because as far as I can see Javascript is the sole reason why I should care about these vulnerabilities at all... it's my desktop. 18:07:23 agreed 18:07:25 web.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-12) 18:07:48 I think computers being able to run general-purpose code is a pretty great feature 18:08:04 You might say it's the distinguishing feature of computers 18:08:20 Sure, if it's my code, or application code that I actually deliberately invoked myself. 18:08:27 It's a shame to require you to trust that code. 18:08:46 But that should be a privilege, not something given out nilly-willy to random foreign websites. 18:09:18 It's a bad world :/ 18:11:27 Why? 18:11:41 Because of the people, I think. 18:13:29 I think being able to run untrusted code is a pretty great feature. 18:20:32 Well at least let's shove it into some place where it doesn't share any resources (including bus) with any important stuff. 18:22:45 sgtm 18:22:50 write it all in FRACTRAN 18:22:55 that'll be safe for sure 18:23:48 Maybe they can put a smaller computer inside your computer for running untrusted code. 18:23:59 Computers are pretty cheap. 18:24:33 Chrome has a process per tab, but a computer per tab sounds like a much better plan. 18:24:56 The people who're really screwed are VPS providers (or their users, depending on how you look at it). 18:25:18 virtual private scow 18:25:25 @bot 18:25:26 :) 18:25:40 that's on a VPS (of course?) 18:25:44 Fortunately lambdabot holds no confidential information. 18:25:59 . o O ( who can @tell? ) 18:26:28 But mostly, yes, that's the attitude I'm taking with it as well. 18:26:53 Speaking of scow, I'm pretty surprised at how complicated it is to get a program that shows simple graphics and runs its loop at a predictable 1/60 s latency. 18:27:03 In X11 with OpenGL, at least. 18:27:06 Is it even possible? 18:28:01 -!- atslash has joined. 18:32:45 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:36:27 -!- unlimiter has joined. 18:43:55 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: thanks mawk). 18:47:12 -!- atslash has joined. 18:57:07 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:00:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:22:22 data is code anyway 19:23:23 that's why X11 ids are only 29 bits 19:54:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:58:10 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 20:01:46 The BF Joust hill opened 10 years ago (May 2009). Didn't realise it'd been so long! 20:07:45 web.test: points -2.31, score 18.10, rank 23/47 (+24) 20:09:01 web.test: points -4.90, score 15.98, rank 30/47 (-7) 20:16:19 web.test2: points -2.83, score 18.44, rank 22/47 20:17:23 web.test3: points -22.26, score 6.21, rank 47/47 20:17:49 web.test2: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-23) 20:18:04 web.test: points -45.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-12) 20:23:01 web.test: points 0.38, score 19.12, rank 23/47 (+24) 20:26:57 web.run: points -21.43, score 6.45, rank 46/47 20:28:28 web.vi: points -9.45, score 10.89, rank 46/47 20:34:32 ^bf ,[.,]!ABC 20:34:32 ABC 20:39:19 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:40:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:40:51 -!- nfd has joined. 20:44:24 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:46:55 -!- sleepnap has joined. 20:57:22 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:09:20 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 21:12:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:16:09 web.run: points -12.64, score 10.57, rank 47/47 (--) 21:17:11 web.run: points -12.64, score 10.57, rank 47/47 (--) 21:21:19 web.test: points -6.24, score 15.25, rank 35/47 (-30) 21:23:31 web.run: points -12.64, score 10.41, rank 47/47 (--) 21:24:25 web.run: points -16.24, score 8.43, rank 47/47 (--) 21:38:05 @tell oerjan We're hoping for your song to win. 21:38:06 Consider it noted. 22:23:45 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:28:19 -!- sleepnap has joined. 22:28:54 -!- sleepnap has quit (Client Quit). 22:31:06 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 22:40:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:40:16 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TriMill * New user account 22:40:43 yay I've made bitch programming managable. https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/examples/brainfuck.pp results in https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/examples/brainfuck 22:43:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:47:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62256&oldid=62175 * Int-e * (+351) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ Brainfuck! (but no closer to TC) 23:05:35 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62257&oldid=62215 * TriMill * (+399) /* Introductions */ 23:37:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:40:36 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:43:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:43:23 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 23:43:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:55:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 2019-05-17: 00:04:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:20:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:29:21 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:41:24 -!- tromp has joined. 00:45:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:45:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:10:09 -!- uplime has changed nick to Sherlime. 01:18:44 -!- Sherlime has changed nick to uplime. 01:40:42 -!- tromp has joined. 01:45:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:49:35 -!- FreeFull has quit. 01:49:37 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:05:15 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:06:31 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 02:08:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:20:58 -!- joast has joined. 03:25:55 -!- moei has joined. 03:28:35 -!- tromp has joined. 03:33:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:51:26 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:53:00 -!- hakatashi has joined. 04:53:06 -!- tromp has joined. 04:55:33 -!- hakatashi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:55:52 -!- hakatashi has joined. 04:57:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:41:06 -!- tromp has joined. 06:45:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:10:18 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:37:02 -!- tromp has joined. 08:30:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:11:58 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:18:09 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62258&oldid=62246 * RealUndefined * (-65) 10:19:59 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:20:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:33:12 -!- Frater_EST has left. 11:15:59 [[XO Mchne]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62259 * A * (+248) Tmp page 11:17:45 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62260&oldid=62259 * A * (+142) 11:20:20 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 11:22:38 -!- atslash has joined. 11:22:39 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62261&oldid=62260 * A * (+542) /* Exclusive-Or reference */ 11:23:24 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62262&oldid=62261 * A * (+6) /* Output whether a=b */ 11:24:09 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62263&oldid=62262 * A * (+67) /* Output whether a=b */ 11:24:46 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62264&oldid=62263 * A * (+84) /* The Program Execution Process */ 11:27:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:41:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:44:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:44:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:48:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:29:55 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:50:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:51:01 -!- tromp has joined. 12:52:10 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62265&oldid=62264 * A * (+35) 12:52:56 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 12:53:20 -!- Frater_EST has left. 12:54:21 [[Cut]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62266 * A * (+77) Created page with "[[Cut]] is a [[joke language]]. [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Joke languages]]" 12:58:15 [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62267&oldid=62266 * A * (+475) 13:00:23 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62268&oldid=62184 * A * (+44) /* General languages */ 13:03:14 [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62269&oldid=61473 * A * (+116) /* List of OISCs */ 13:04:08 [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62270&oldid=62269 * A * (+1) /* List of OISCs */ 13:45:45 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62271&oldid=62256 * A * (+146) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 13:47:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62272&oldid=62271 * A * (+195) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 13:47:25 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 13:51:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:53:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62273&oldid=62272 * A * (+46) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 14:03:57 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:15:55 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62274&oldid=62265 * A * (+633) /* Example programs */ 14:16:35 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62275&oldid=62274 * A * (-2) /* C Implementation */ 14:19:50 [[Cut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62276&oldid=62267 * A * (+326) /* Example programs */ 14:25:11 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62277&oldid=62255 * A * (+9) Type another name into the sandbox 14:26:52 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: rebooting). 14:29:40 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62278 * A * (+56) You see, esolangs.org supports creating a page with a blank name, which is quite astonishing!!! 14:32:12 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62279&oldid=62278 * A * (-7) See https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05-17.html#lib if you don't believe it... 14:36:11 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62280&oldid=62275 * A * (+0) Oops, fix a typo 14:37:10 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:43:33 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62281&oldid=62280 * A * (+18) /* Example programs */ 14:49:19 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62282&oldid=62281 * A * (+8) Oops 14:51:15 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62283&oldid=62282 * A * (+54) /* Example programs */ 14:56:02 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62284&oldid=62283 * A * (+57) /* a */ 14:56:22 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62285&oldid=62273 * Int-e * (+1411) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ some answers 14:57:06 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62286&oldid=62284 * A * (+10) /* NOT b */ 15:02:07 [[XO Mchne]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62287&oldid=62286 * A * (+59) /* Example programs */ 15:28:16 -!- gerzytet_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:28:49 -!- gerzytet has joined. 16:35:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:21:20 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:13:55 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Linneris * New user account 18:16:36 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62288&oldid=62257 * Linneris * (+266) 18:16:43 [[Halting problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62289&oldid=37159 * Linneris * (-8) 18:18:04 -!- nfd has joined. 18:21:18 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:42:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:44:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:52:00 -!- tromp has joined. 18:56:42 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:21:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:49:19 [[HARSH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62290&oldid=58563 * ShareMan * (-300) Fixed typos and misinformation 20:05:30 [[User:TuxCrafting]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62291&oldid=61311 * TuxCrafting * (+108) 21:05:02 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:07:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:07:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:49:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:00:44 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:05:07 -!- adu has joined. 22:44:03 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:45:50 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:28:59 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:40:10 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:45:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:46:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 2019-05-18: 00:34:44 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:55:59 I thought of a idea of esolang, which is there is some finite number of inputs each of which stores a natural number, and a finite number of registers in the program, each of which stores a queue with natural numbers and/or names of inputs, and each register also has a maximum amount of the sum of its contents, which is defined as a polynomial of the input variables with integer coefficients which must have a natural number result for all possible 00:58:03 And then there is operation, which is: make a register empty, check if a register is empty (and jump based on the result), append a element onto a queue (can only be a constant natural number or a constant name of a input) (if that would cause it to exceed the maximum, then it is unchanged), move as many elements from the beginning of one register to the end of another that will fit, output a register, and terminate. 01:02:29 Do you like this? 02:20:19 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:51:53 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:12:12 [[Talk:Echo Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62292 * Zzo38 * (+472) Created page with "Even if ''n'' is large, still the proof should be provided (if it is correct) (just to see if it can be Turing-complete at all); if someone else can prove it Turing-complete f..." 05:22:56 -!- iconmaster has joined. 05:36:24 -!- atslash has joined. 06:07:23 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62293&oldid=62285 * A * (+116) I cannot test it. 06:08:52 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62294&oldid=62293 * A * (+149) Add my test program 06:13:06 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62295&oldid=62294 * A * (+0) Another irritating micro-edit 06:18:43 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62296&oldid=62295 * A * (+416) Add a lot of info 06:19:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62297&oldid=62296 * A * (+0) Move signature 06:21:38 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62298&oldid=62297 * A * (-43) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 06:26:29 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 06:27:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62299&oldid=62298 * A * (-638) Sorry. I did not update implementation 06:38:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62300&oldid=62299 * A * (+213) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 06:51:59 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62301&oldid=62300 * A * (+126) Wonderful! 06:57:15 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62302&oldid=62160 * A * (+384) Interesting program form 06:59:47 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62303&oldid=62302 * A * (+70) Golfed program 07:01:45 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62304&oldid=62303 * A * (+49) 07:08:08 [[Golf/Feature golf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62305 * A * (+501) Created page with "Feature golf is a specific type of golf. Its goal is to to write the shortest program that uses up all of the features in a programming language without including dead code...." 07:08:30 [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62306&oldid=62305 * A * (+0) 07:39:08 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:51:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:56:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:59:56 [[Talk:Z]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62307 * TuxCrafting * (+759) Created page with "I am trying to implement (well, re-implement) Z, but I'm having trouble understanding what some instructions are supposed to do and running examples. * zz Z, [[Z]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62308&oldid=60768 * TuxCrafting * (-97) i'm trying to reimplement it but it's confusing 08:06:04 -!- Frater_EST has left. 08:18:29 [[Golf/Feature golf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62309&oldid=62306 * A * (-214) 08:46:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:46:58 -!- Sgeo has joined. 08:54:10 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 08:58:17 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62310&oldid=62301 * A * (+204) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 09:01:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62311&oldid=62310 * A * (-204) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 09:01:44 huey 10:21:24 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:24:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:39:45 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62312&oldid=62311 * A * (+182) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ 10:42:55 [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62313&oldid=60658 * A * (+138) /* Normal implementations */ 10:45:15 [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62314&oldid=53710 * A * (+453) /* Main table */ 10:56:29 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62315&oldid=62312 * A * (+332) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 11:03:18 -!- iconmaster has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:29:52 -!- atslash has joined. 11:30:28 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 11:33:15 -!- atslash has quit (Client Quit). 11:33:46 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:44:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:47:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 11:49:10 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 11:53:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:56:11 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:59:38 -!- Melvar has joined. 12:16:58 -!- FreeFull has joined. 12:32:05 [[M-code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62316&oldid=57368 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:32:38 [[Grin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62317&oldid=57369 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:33:15 [[Tri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62318&oldid=57370 * Madk * (+3) Update download link 12:33:46 [[Tri]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62319&oldid=62318 * Madk * (-1) Fix mistake in link update 12:33:58 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 12:35:19 [[Cardinal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62320&oldid=57371 * Madk * (+29) Update download link (original interpreter) 12:37:43 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:41:08 [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62321&oldid=57373 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:41:49 [[Staq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62322&oldid=57374 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:42:30 [[PoGo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62323&oldid=57375 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:43:20 [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62324&oldid=57376 * Madk * (-5) Update download link 12:43:44 [[D1ffe7e45e]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62325&oldid=62324 * Madk * (+7) Fix download link update mistake 12:44:13 [[Surface]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62326&oldid=57367 * Madk * (+5) Update download link 12:44:41 [[Minimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62327&oldid=57377 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:45:23 [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62328&oldid=58896 * Madk * (+2) Update interpreter download link 12:45:58 [[BrainCursion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62329&oldid=57380 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:46:23 [[Filth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62330&oldid=57381 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 12:47:07 [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62331&oldid=57383 * Madk * (+2) Update download link 13:00:06 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:03:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62332&oldid=62315 * Int-e * (+382) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ nested loops + cosmetics 13:27:13 -!- unlimiter has joined. 13:27:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:29:09 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:29:32 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:34:07 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:08:13 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 14:13:03 my earlier analysis was wrong 14:21:34 a) what analysis? b) surprise?! 14:33:11 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62333&oldid=62332 * A * (-96) Oh no, I mis-referred a page. 14:33:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:34:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:35:50 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62334&oldid=62333 * A * (+7) Page improvement 14:40:00 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62335&oldid=62334 * A * (+3) 14:47:16 -!- atslash has joined. 14:48:53 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62336&oldid=62335 * A * (+71) Argh! I had to make another minor edit. Sorry for the inconvenience. 14:52:37 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:53:02 -!- atslash has joined. 15:05:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:08:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:10:46 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:18:32 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62337&oldid=62336 * A * (+245) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 15:38:45 -!- jericho98 has joined. 15:51:46 -!- jericho98 has left ("Be back later..."). 16:01:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:14:55 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:35:23 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:36:15 -!- atslash has joined. 16:39:18 -!- weston has joined. 16:48:05 -!- tromp has joined. 16:52:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:55:51 -!- unlimiter has joined. 16:58:29 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:58:58 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 16:59:30 -!- atslash has joined. 17:04:35 -!- tromp has joined. 17:09:45 -!- unlimiter has joined. 17:16:20 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: thanks). 17:22:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:27:22 -!- tromp has joined. 17:40:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:12 web.a: points 8.31, score 47.40, rank 1/47 17:56:20 web.a: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 17:57:28 -!- tromp has joined. 18:53:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:07:41 [[Shark]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62338 * Madk * (+3519) Add Shark esolang 19:19:39 [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62339&oldid=57385 * Madk * (+12) /* Pages I've created */ 19:24:10 [[M?!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62340 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+666) Created page with " '''M+-'''is an [[esoteric programming language]] based on [[Brainfuck]] but with less comands: ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" |- ! Command !! Use |- | m || Goes to the nex..." 19:24:35 -!- tromp has joined. 19:24:59 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62341&oldid=62340 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Commands */ 19:25:27 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62342&oldid=62341 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Commands */ 19:27:18 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62343&oldid=62342 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+60) 19:27:34 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62344&oldid=62343 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1) 19:28:02 I am starting to implement the IHAVE command in sqlnetnews now. 19:28:51 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62345&oldid=62344 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) 19:29:05 [[M?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62346&oldid=62345 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) 19:29:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:31:08 And then I can add SUBSCRIBE and UNSUBSCRIBE commands, and a separate program "sqlsubnews" that, when run (probably by anacron), will send messages to the subscribers. 19:38:14 [[Shark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62347&oldid=62338 * Madk * (+76) Add cat example program 19:38:26 [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62348&oldid=62347 * Madk * (+1) Fix formatting 19:39:09 [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62349&oldid=62348 * Madk * (-3) Remove unneeded terminate instruction at the end of most examples 20:22:16 -!- tromp has joined. 20:52:26 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:58:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:59:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:22:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:26:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:27:25 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:27:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:40:44 Is there a way to create a total programming language so that the termination requirement is "written into the syntax", instead of requiring some sort of separate checker? 21:42:50 yes 21:42:56 for example you can require that loop bounds are always literals 21:43:08 or not have looping at all 21:43:29 what about when using recursion? 21:47:21 In Godel,Escher,Bach they describe a program language "BlooP" which requires the loop count to be specified at the top of the loop; it can be calculated but is set when the loop starts. Recursion is also prohibited. 21:47:57 yes 21:48:03 iirc one of their languages corresponds to primitive recursion 21:48:57 rdococ: languages like Coq and Agda the terminatio check is based on the algebraic data syntax 21:49:16 for data types it's a reqirement that you pattern match off at least one layer of constructor before you call recursively 21:49:24 so f (Foo x) = ... f x ... is fine 21:49:29 but f x = ... f x ... is not 21:49:39 for codata / coinductive functions it's the opposite 21:49:52 each recursive call must be buried inside at least one constructor 21:49:58 g x = ... Foo (g x) ... 21:50:16 this guarantees that a consumer of g can resolve any pattern match in finite time 21:50:33 case g x of Foo y => ... 21:50:38 will only have to call g once 21:51:11 this allows you to have infinite data structures (really codata structures) without infinite loops 21:51:24 hmmm 21:51:30 repeat x = Cons x (repeat x) 21:53:23 rdococ: note that the termination check for recursive functions allows you to get away with putting a numerical bound on general recursion 21:53:37 by way of peano arithmetic 21:54:25 f (Succ limit) x = ... f limit x ... 21:54:37 the implementation will see that 'limit' is decreasing, even if x isn't 21:55:04 what about f (Foo x) = ... f (Foo x) ...? 21:55:06 of course, it needs to know that the peano number type is data and not codata! 21:55:23 this distincti is very important in total langs 21:55:32 unlike, say, Haskell, where everything is codata 21:55:37 rdococ: not allowed 21:55:55 if you try to use regular recursion on codata then it would not terminate 21:56:01 (if the codata is infinite) 21:56:29 I think the rule is that the argument in the recursive call has to be a strict sub-expression of the parameter, for at least oe parameter 21:56:32 one* 21:56:34 yeah 21:56:43 so you're only allowed to do that if you return codata and comply with the codata rule 21:56:56 for example map on a codata list 21:57:00 in haskell everything is some bizarre mix of data/codata 21:57:10 non-strictness is kind of scow 21:57:16 map f Nil = Nil; map f (Cons x xs) = Cons (f x) (map f xs) 21:57:51 (in fact you could define a type for infinite lists *only* that has no Nil) 21:57:53 this is ok even though you are recursing on an infinite codata structure 21:58:00 because you are also producing constructors at every step 21:58:21 shachaf: I suppose so 21:58:24 in what sense is it data 21:58:36 i mean that the least and greatest fixed points are equal 21:58:43 hm 21:59:02 so you can "fold codata" which doesn't terminate, i guess? 22:04:12 but it still feels like rejecting f x = ... f x ... is arbitrary. is there a way to make it feel "non-arbitrary"? 22:04:36 I don't know what you mean by arbitrary 22:04:39 it proves termination 22:04:45 obviously, f x = f x would not terminate 22:04:57 x has to change at each step and it needs to change in a way that the implementation can verify 22:05:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:05:05 so the most straightforward rule is that it has to "shrink" in some sense 22:05:14 a number counting down to zero, or a tree shrinking 22:05:19 (which are actually the same if you use peano numbers) 22:05:32 is there a syntax that would enforce this rule without requiring explicit verification? 22:05:48 not sure 22:05:54 it already feels pretty syntactic to me 22:06:21 perhaps you could designate the recursive call at the site of the formal parameter 22:06:29 f (Cons @x) = ... recurse ... 22:06:47 meaning f (Cons x) = ... f x ... 22:06:54 'recurse' keyword means 'call self with arguments designated by @' 22:07:00 seems awkward and pointless though 22:07:01 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:07:09 you could also add an implicit counter to *every* function 22:07:31 I kind of wish recursion depth was bounded in a language like C. 22:07:42 there are verification tools which can enforce that 22:07:45 for embedded systems 22:07:45 So you could know the maximum stack size statically. 22:07:49 you can prove-- yeah, that 22:07:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:08:05 I also want to be able to use this value at compile-time to allocate "stacks" of the right size. 22:25:45 Golly. Instead of writing all this C code I should write a compiler for a language that's 50% better than C. 22:25:50 That can't be too hard. 22:30:23 Possibly can be a superset of C with some additonal commands so that it can be compiled into a C code, could be one possibility to do. 22:31:02 (However, such thing would presumably need to be inserted after the preprocessor; I am not sure how to insert extra steps after the preprocessor in GCC) 22:32:07 I don't see enough of a benefit to C compatibility. 22:33:30 Mainly it seem to me that it might be easier to write without missing stuff in such a case, but maybe not. If you are managing to make all of the stuff by yourself though, then a C compatibility is not needed; you can compile it directly to LLVM or whatever 22:34:05 Or maybe I should use Zig. I guess it's the best candidate right now. 22:44:54 what's zig like 22:45:14 https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/ 22:45:23 um 22:45:26 I don't need to read a document 22:45:26 they seem to have pretty reasonable taste? 22:45:29 i haven't used it 22:45:41 but often i look at some individual thing and it seems reasonable 22:45:43 how's it compare to rust 22:46:41 no borrow checking 22:48:25 ok 22:50:56 I thought before of making something too, which exposes all features of LLVM (including @llvm.compiler.used), some of which would be done in system-dependent include files, and also powerful macros. 22:56:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:08:35 Some things in LLVM is good such as, you can use the carry of an addition, and you can specify various kind of metadata for use with optimization and other stuff, and exception handling, and bit manipulation, and appending linkage (which unfortunately is only usable for some special variables), etc. 23:10:07 But also some things isn't very good, such as there is no version of @llvm.experimental.widenable.condition() for types other than i1. (Also, for use appending linkage and some other features, one thing to do could be to support a ".llvmo" file format, which you can combine into one ".o" file.) 23:13:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 23:18:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:19:58 kmc: what language should i use 23:20:16 don't know don't care 23:21:48 hatters gonna hat 23:27:14 -!- tromp has joined. 23:31:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:45:35 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 23:46:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:48:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 2019-05-19: 00:01:25 kmc: There is ways to force a maximum stack size, such as what I did in Free Hero Mesh (there is a user setting for the maximum stack size and the direction of the stack, and then any recursive functions will check that limit, and functions that are not recursive do not check the stack size). 00:10:19 gcc has a flag to give you stack size information 00:10:43 But I want to statically check the depth in every case. 00:10:54 Maybe I should just ban recursive functions. 00:11:02 What are they good for, anyway? 00:11:33 There is many thing that it is good for, I think, although also there is many cases where it is better to not use it. 00:11:35 I guess some code is much easier to write with recursion but it tends to be rare. 00:11:46 Parsers? Trees? 00:12:13 I suppose "trees" is pretty broad. 00:12:31 are trees scow 00:12:40 often it's easiest to write with recursion, but you end up doing it another way for some reason or another 00:12:46 of course in many cases that just means reifying the stack 00:12:50 and you will have the same issues 00:14:31 but more control over what to do 00:14:44 perhaps 00:14:55 but it won't magically give you a bound on space 00:15:14 I think the best way to design it is, you have enough ropes to hang yourself, and also a few more just in case 00:15:45 i want to add that to the quote db but I don't remember how 00:15:46 I mean, you can just check the bound instead of getting a stack overflow. 00:16:04 You can allocate your reified stack in a difference place from "the stack" 00:17:42 yes, that is one advantage 00:17:46 it can grow and move on its own 00:17:55 and it's easier to check, yes 00:18:01 stack overflow is usually one of the worst handled error conditions 00:20:08 Did you look how it is implemented in Free Hero Mesh, if you think the handling of stack overflow is reasonable? 00:21:03 (it is only implemented if __GNUC__ is defined, and if it is enabled at runtime; otherwise stack overflow is not checked) 00:22:16 Also you might have a very small stack because you're doing some (stack-switching) coroutine thing. 00:22:52 Or you could want to do a non-stack-switching coroutine thing where you effectively reify part of the stack. 00:22:57 Where you is the compiler. 00:23:08 I didn't look at Free Hero Mesh. 00:25:37 Currently, the stack protection is only checked in the execute_program() function (in exec.c); later if other recursive functions are added then those also might do, such as the function to move an object in a direction (due to objects pushing each other, this call is going to be recursive). The definition of execute_program() starts with: if(StackProtection()) Throw("Call stack overflow"); 00:26:27 where Throw is a macro defined in exec.c (which writes the address of the string literal to a global variable, and then calls longjmp()), and StackProtection is a macro defined in heromesh.h 00:39:17 [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62350 * Hakerh400 * (+3843) Examinable Invocation Vector 00:40:44 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62351&oldid=62022 * Hakerh400 * (+35) Added EIV to the language list 00:44:09 Man, trees are kind of scow for caches. 00:44:35 What's an ordered set/map data structure that's cache-friendly? 00:48:04 I don't know 00:49:06 Is there something like OpenID over SASL, that does not require a web browser or any other implementation other than SASL? 01:14:07 [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62352&oldid=60452 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+296) /* Sample programs */ 01:20:19 [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62353&oldid=62352 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+65) /* Sample programs */ 01:23:06 [[Thue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62354&oldid=62353 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (-1) /* Sample programs */ 01:24:14 [[Thue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62355&oldid=62354 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Sample programs */ 01:25:23 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62356&oldid=62337 * A * (-245) /* History or Etymology */ 01:27:50 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 01:30:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:37:35 !zjoust Sookie ->+>+[+][[---][+]]<+[+]+[-][+[-]]+++++>-[+][+[+][+[+][>]>>-]]<[->[->>>>>>>>>++[-]>++[-]>>++[<]>>[-]>++[-]>++[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[+]->[-]][]<[+++++<->>--<<+++.++>>-<++[>[.+][+[-.][--]->+++]++>--<]<[+]]>>]<[[+][+]>]+[>[>>>>>>>>>[-]>[+]>[++++]]>>>+] 01:37:36 weston.Sookie: points 8.52, score 49.04, rank 1/47 01:38:13 !zjoust Sookie < 01:38:13 weston.Sookie: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 01:38:56 -!- westonian has joined. 01:40:32 !zjoust Sookie ->+>+[+][[---][+]]<+[+]+[-][+[-]]+++++>-[+][+[+][+[+][>]>>-]]<[->[->>>>>>>>>++[-]>++[-]>>++[<]>>[-]>++[-]>++[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]>[+]->[-]][]<[+++++<->>--<<+++.++>>-<++[>[.+][+[-.][--]->+++]++>--<]<[+]]>>]<[[+][+]>]+[>[>>>>>>>>>[-]>[+]>[++++]]>>>+] 01:40:32 westonian.Sookie: points 9.60, score 53.37, rank 1/47 (+2) 01:42:43 -!- weston has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:47:15 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:48:03 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62357&oldid=62213 * A * (+51) /* Impossible */ 01:57:43 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62358&oldid=62356 * A * (+11) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 01:58:01 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62359&oldid=62358 * A * (+11) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 02:12:11 -!- iconmaster has joined. 02:12:18 -!- iconmaster has quit (Client Quit). 02:19:34 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62360&oldid=62359 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 03:00:08 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62361&oldid=62357 * A * (+177) /* Swapping two values */ 03:31:01 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:45:45 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62362&oldid=62258 * RealUndefined * (+155) turing-complete 03:47:14 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62363&oldid=62362 * RealUndefined * (+0) 03:51:50 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:18:26 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62364&oldid=62363 * RealUndefined * (+16) redirect in abbreviation added 04:18:35 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62365&oldid=62364 * RealUndefined * (+4) Redirected page to [[TMBWW]] 04:18:48 [[Turing Machine But Way Worse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62366&oldid=62365 * RealUndefined * (-20) nope. 04:21:36 [[TMBWW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62367 * RealUndefined * (+42) Add redirect 04:36:47 -!- tromp has joined. 04:40:39 [[Bit~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62368 * RealUndefined * (+969) Created page with "{{lowercase}} ''Note: This is still a work-in-progress.'' '''bit~''' is a language made by [[User:RealUndefined]], in May 2019. It is a cell-based language that uses bits to..." 04:41:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:42:07 [[Bit~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62369&oldid=62368 * RealUndefined * (+24) 04:54:53 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 05:06:22 -!- Frater_EST has left. 05:31:04 -!- tromp has joined. 05:35:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:54:03 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:33:10 [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62370&oldid=62349 * Madk * (+5) Use clearer terminoloy 06:38:45 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62371&oldid=62351 * Madk * (+12) /* S */ Add shark to list 07:14:16 Make some Magic: the Gathering cards that are world, and that in addition to continuous effects will also have a death trigger. In addition to global enchantments, other permanent types are also possible. 07:14:56 Isn't World deprecated? 07:19:01 -!- tromp has joined. 07:23:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:28:36 -!- tromp has joined. 07:47:14 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 07:51:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 08:05:25 -!- Ezarkei has joined. 08:21:24 -!- Ezarkei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:42:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:14:30 [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62372&oldid=60568 * Hakerh400 * (+35) /* Programming languages we created */ 09:21:10 -!- atslash has joined. 10:04:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:17:20 [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62373&oldid=62350 * Hakerh400 * (+703) /* Examples */ 10:18:15 [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62374&oldid=62373 * Hakerh400 * (+37) /* Reversing bits */ 10:31:14 [[Examinable Invocation Vector]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62375&oldid=62374 * Hakerh400 * (+3) /* Repeat the first character three times */ 10:48:42 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:49:58 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:53:54 -!- unlimiter has joined. 10:58:29 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 11:04:02 -!- gerzytet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:15:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:07:05 [[Shark]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62376&oldid=62370 * Madk * (-2) Fibonacci sequence starts with 0, 1 not 1, 1 12:27:23 [[Cd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62377 * A * (+115) Created page with "[[Cd]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]" 12:51:25 [[Cd]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62378&oldid=62377 * A * (+557) 13:05:23 [[User:TonyBrown148]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62379&oldid=61647 * TonyBrown148 * (+180) 14:24:06 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 15:40:46 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:12:12 shachaf: Wizards of the Coast no longer makes cards using it (same with banding and many other stuff), but still it can be done by unofficial cards 16:55:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 16:56:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:56:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:59:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62380&oldid=62360 * Helen * (+415) /* Impossible */ [[Bootstrap]] isn't impossible 17:05:26 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62381&oldid=62361 * Helen * (-889) /* Impossible */ Cleaned up; Removed bootstrapping comment; Removed some dumb stuff of mine; The pi comment is still valid; Unproven things go in [[bitch#Unproven|Unproven]] 17:05:54 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62382&oldid=62381 * Helen * (+116) /* Unproven */ Unproven things go in [[bitch#Unproven|Unproven]] #2 17:35:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 17:41:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:08:51 I would want some stack switching support in JavaScript. (It can help with some things combining synchronous and asynchronous code, and has a few other uses.) 19:17:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62383&oldid=62380 * Helen * (+240) Added a notice at the top to not to delete things 19:28:18 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62384&oldid=62382 * Helen * (-24) /* Unproven */ Removed [[99 bottles of beer]] as that has been done 20:06:39 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62385&oldid=62384 * Salpynx * (-3) Correct memory system 20:11:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:38:49 [[User talk:Sinthorion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62386 * Camto * (+60) Created page with "Hello it's me. ~~~~" 20:40:31 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:05:53 -!- unlimiter has joined. 21:11:36 [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62387&oldid=60822 * Cortex * (+0) /* Print "Hello, World!QHQQHQ" */ 21:17:54 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 21:40:00 Bands With Other deprecated cards 21:41:11 -!- john_metcalf has left. 21:49:23 Then you will define "deprecated cards" properly (or just make Un-cards and don't care) 21:59:13 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:59:29 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:05:58 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:08:07 -!- sleepnap has joined. 22:34:13 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:03:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:27:32 -!- sleepnap has joined. 23:33:48 -!- MDude has joined. 23:39:23 -!- tromp has joined. 23:44:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 2019-05-20: 00:06:33 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:14:00 [[1=0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62388 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1037) Created page with "'''1=0''' is a programming based on [[Forte]] made to mess up some of the peano axioms that [[Forte]] does not. ==Commands== In 1=0, the main action is to asign new values tu..." 00:15:10 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62389&oldid=62388 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Breaking the Peano Axioms */ 00:23:29 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62390&oldid=62389 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+152) /* Commands */ 00:25:30 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62391&oldid=62390 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+13) 00:48:03 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62392&oldid=62391 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+228) /* Examples */ 00:50:39 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62393&oldid=62392 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+92) /* Commands */ 00:51:04 [[1=0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62394&oldid=62393 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Calculator */ 00:51:25 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62395&oldid=62394 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+0) /* Calculator */ 00:51:51 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:54:00 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62396&oldid=62395 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+52) /* Commands */ 00:55:54 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62397&oldid=62396 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+5) /* Cat */ 00:56:43 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62398&oldid=62397 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+17) /* Examples */ 00:57:09 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62399&oldid=62398 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) /* Num Cat */ 01:00:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:18:00 -!- sleepnap has joined. 01:25:51 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:10:43 I am playing the "robots" game from the "bsdgames" package. Many similar games have been invented, with different features. This one has a "wait bonus". 02:11:24 Is it like robotfindskitten? 02:12:27 No, it is different. You can move and opponents will chase you but if opponents run into each other they are both destroyed, leaving a wall, and if they walk into a wall they are destroyed, and if they walk into you then you lose. You can also teleport at random. 02:15:30 O, now I see 02:16:06 I remember I once made something similar, with many new kind of objects that can appear on the screen, such as items that you can pick up and use later, items that must be used immediately when touched, extra lives, extra points, objects that give extra points only if opponents touch them, duplicators, etc. In my implementation you could not pass your turn. 02:16:11 How do you lose? 02:16:48 If opponent walks into you then you lose (or if you walk into an opponent; the BSD version prevents you from walking into an opponent though) 02:17:45 But how can that happen? 02:17:57 Is it only when you teleport at random and happen to land next to an opponent? 02:18:47 In the BSD version, yes. However, in many other implementations, it can also happen if you push the wrong direction by mistake. 02:19:53 I got 1440 points. 02:20:05 Do you like this? 02:20:11 I managed to get 3173 points 02:20:27 I managed to get 30 points 02:59:26 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 03:02:46 -!- sleepnap has left. 03:28:36 Huh. Zillions of Games uses S-expressions to define games 03:35:06 almost as good as ∫-expressions 03:59:39 Some time on I think Friday, I described a idea of esolang. Did you read that? 04:00:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 04:03:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62400&oldid=62383 * A * (+195) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 04:03:21 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:16:36 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62401&oldid=62400 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 04:19:41 http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds/cojazz1.zip 04:20:08 What is the cofunction of jazz? 04:22:17 -!- adu has joined. 04:54:28 -!- tromp has joined. 04:59:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:15:51 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:05:41 -!- tromp has joined. 06:10:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:24:03 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 06:47:15 -!- j4cbo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:47:15 -!- lynn_ has changed nick to lynn. 06:47:33 -!- j4cbo has joined. 06:47:38 -!- dog_star has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:47:50 -!- glowcoil has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:47:56 -!- dog_star has joined. 06:47:58 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 06:48:10 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 06:48:17 -!- glowcoil has joined. 06:59:52 -!- tromp has joined. 07:04:19 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:14:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:15:02 -!- tromp has joined. 09:17:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:21:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 09:32:50 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 10:02:08 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:03:39 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:43:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:16:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:20:15 [[RarVM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62402&oldid=61889 * Void * (+107) /* Language overview */ 11:42:31 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:42:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:50:43 -!- MDude has joined. 11:59:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:10:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62403&oldid=62401 * A * (+231) Clarify 12:21:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62404&oldid=62403 * A * (+2631) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:22:38 yo 12:22:38 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62405&oldid=62404 * A * (+71) /* Deadfish interpreter */ 12:25:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62406&oldid=62405 * A * (+63) /* Deadfish interpreter */ 12:41:01 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62407&oldid=62406 * A * (-595) /* Deadfish interpreter */ 12:41:47 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62408&oldid=62407 * A * (-199) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 12:43:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:50:53 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:00:14 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62409&oldid=62408 * A * (+704) /* Deadfish interpreter */ 13:00:42 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62410&oldid=62385 * A * (+589) /* Possible with adjustments */ 13:01:02 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62411&oldid=62409 * A * (-704) 13:01:22 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62412&oldid=62410 * A * (-16) I've implemented the Mandelbrot set. 13:02:06 [[Popular problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62413&oldid=62097 * A * (+4) I want to edit Mandelbrot set 13:03:20 [[Mandelbrot set]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62414 * A * (+255) Created page with "This [[popular problem]] requires outputting the Mandelbrot fractal, usually in ASCII pseudographics. ==External links== [http://people.sc.fsu.edu/~jburkardt/c_src/mandelbrot_..." 13:04:55 [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62415&oldid=62414 * A * (+213) /* External links */ 13:05:43 [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62416&oldid=62415 * A * (+3500) 13:06:38 [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62417&oldid=62416 * A * (+409) Modify example output to make it look a lot cleaner 13:08:41 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:10:23 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62418&oldid=62412 * A * (+4) Link 13:11:01 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62419&oldid=62418 * A * (+0) Oops 14:13:15 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62420&oldid=62419 * A * (+235) /* Mandelbrot set */ 14:15:49 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62421&oldid=62420 * A * (+1) /* Popular Problem solutions in bitch */ 14:16:25 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62422&oldid=62421 * A * (+0) What!? 14:19:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62423&oldid=62422 * A * (-60) /* Fibonacci sequence */ 14:25:07 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62424&oldid=62411 * A * (-766) They're trivial now, as they are already proven. 14:25:26 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62425&oldid=62424 * A * (-17) Move up a section 14:33:11 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62426&oldid=62425 * A * (-29) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 14:33:34 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62427&oldid=62426 * A * (-349) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 14:55:18 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62428&oldid=62423 * Int-e * (+408) /* ROT13 */ shorter version 15:52:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:11:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:49:41 -!- unlimiter has joined. 16:53:48 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 17:20:27 [[Y/N]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62429&oldid=58533 * HereToAnnoy * (+1) Fixed not-matching 17:25:12 -!- MDude has joined. 17:36:11 -!- unlimiter has joined. 17:37:30 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 17:49:11 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:11:01 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 18:14:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:29:43 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:31:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:32:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:46 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:46:34 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 19:07:53 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62430&oldid=62277 * Unlimiter * (-9) 19:15:33 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62431&oldid=62430 * Unlimiter * (+5) 19:21:46 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62432&oldid=62431 * Unlimiter * (+109) 19:51:11 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:05:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:13:40 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 20:14:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:17:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:26:46 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:22:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:35:12 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62433&oldid=62432 * Unlimiter * (+598) 21:36:25 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 21:38:50 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62434&oldid=62433 * Unlimiter * (+304) 21:39:49 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:42:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:50 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 21:49:01 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62435&oldid=62434 * Unlimiter * (+354) 21:49:50 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62436&oldid=62435 * Unlimiter * (-90) 21:53:39 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62437&oldid=62436 * Unlimiter * (+236) 21:53:55 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62438&oldid=62437 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Hello World */ 21:59:21 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62439&oldid=62438 * Unlimiter * (+31) 22:00:25 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62440&oldid=62439 * Unlimiter * (+18) 22:01:01 -!- Soni has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:01:13 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62441&oldid=62440 * Unlimiter * (-18) 22:01:19 [[Point]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62442 * Unlimiter * (+3956) Created page with "==Point== {{infobox proglang |name=Point |paradigms=imperative |author=[[Unlimiter]] |year=[[:Category:2019|2019]] |memsys=stack-based |class=:Category:Turing complete|Turin..." 22:01:51 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62443&oldid=62441 * Unlimiter * (-84) /* Overview */ 22:02:24 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62444&oldid=62442 * Unlimiter * (-84) 22:02:30 -!- Soni has joined. 22:03:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:04:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 22:04:39 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62445&oldid=62444 * Unlimiter * (-8) 22:05:47 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62446&oldid=62445 * Unlimiter * (+1) 22:07:22 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62447&oldid=62446 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* Hello World */ 22:14:10 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62448&oldid=62447 * Unlimiter * (+5) /* In-depth */ 22:14:55 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62449&oldid=62448 * Unlimiter * (+8) /* In-depth */ 22:15:17 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62450&oldid=62449 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* In-depth */ 22:16:22 -!- tromp has joined. 22:17:52 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62451&oldid=62450 * Unlimiter * (+60) /* In-depth */ 22:19:22 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62452&oldid=62451 * Unlimiter * (+78) /* Hello World */ 22:19:46 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62453&oldid=62452 * Unlimiter * (+13) /* Hello World */ 22:20:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:22:36 `smlist 500 22:22:38 smlist 500: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 22:53:04 SUPER MEGA COMICS 23:27:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62454&oldid=62427 * Salpynx * (+981) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ thank you reply to Helen's example. 23:39:33 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:44:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62455&oldid=62454 * Salpynx * (+440) /* Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ clarify that my overly-strong claim is very much disproven - happy outcome! 23:51:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:57:23 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:58:12 -!- tromp has joined. 2019-05-21: 00:02:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:03:11 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:20:03 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62456&oldid=62399 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+136) 00:20:23 [[1=0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62457&oldid=62456 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+1) 00:24:11 [[1=0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62458&oldid=62457 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+8) /* Calculator */ 00:26:01 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62459&oldid=62371 * Mipinggfxgbtftybfhfyhfn * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */ 00:32:17 -!- tromp has joined. 00:36:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:50:17 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * A stone arachnid * New user account 00:54:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62460&oldid=62288 * A stone arachnid * (+229) 01:19:08 -!- adu has joined. 01:24:33 [[Queue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62461&oldid=45263 * A stone arachnid * (+2) /* See Also */ Added bullets 01:58:51 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:17:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:20:45 -!- tromp has joined. 02:25:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:25:28 @messages-loud 02:25:29 fizzie said 4d 4h 47m 23s ago: We're hoping for your song to win. 02:25:47 i haven't been following eurovision at all, just barely noticed it was over 02:26:08 * oerjan is still busy archive binging schlock mercenary 02:28:45 excessive information <-- definitely scow 02:38:18 * oerjan hasn't been here for a week, and is probably going to ignore what's happened on the wiki unless there's something really interesting 02:38:26 of course i ignore a lot anyway 02:55:12 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62462&oldid=62428 * Salpynx * (+135) move bounded bf interpreter to popular problems section 02:57:39 `` allquotes | tail -2 02:57:40 1332) ugh, now my Fugue hello world has got stuck in my head again \ 1333) #define __NR_oldolduname 59 fungot: what's your old old name? olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness). 03:05:41 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62463&oldid=62462 * Salpynx * (+67) /* Possible with adjustments */ being picky, but [.+*#] != Mandelbrot Set 03:07:43 [[Mandelbrot set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62464&oldid=62417 * Salpynx * (+8) emphasise the value of the popular problem 03:31:40 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62465&oldid=62463 * Salpynx * (+667) /* Computational class */ summary as I see it. Don't know if this "simulating-arbitrary-sized BSMs" is a distinct class, but it seems interesting. 03:34:29 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62466&oldid=62465 * Salpynx * (-1691) being bold and removing inaccurate and unhelpful sections which enumerate 'impossible' solutions that have concrete implementations on the very same page 04:08:39 -!- tromp has joined. 04:13:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:14:50 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62467&oldid=62466 * A * (+243) 2 nested loops are sufficient for Turing-completeness. 04:15:10 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62468&oldid=62467 * A * (-2) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */ 04:16:34 oerjan: Excessive information? 04:20:37 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 04:31:36 Somewhere they mention you cannot use CAPTCHA with NNTP. Actually, if a SASL mechanism for CAPTCHA is implemented, then it is possible to use with NNTP and with any other protocol that supports SASL. The challenge consists of arbitrary ASCII text that explains what kind of response is needed. The response also must be ASCII text, and does not require the use of a web-browser or other protocols. 04:32:48 (It is OK if it asks a question to which a web-browser can be used to find the answer e.g. from Wikipedia, in case for example you do not know what year some famous person was born or whatever.) 04:46:59 shachaf: about scow 04:47:53 Oh, I remember the context 05:26:43 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62469&oldid=62468 * Salpynx * (-241) /* Bounded-storage machine: brainfuck interpreter */ undo: 63 loop limit refers to this specific bf implementation. This is a link description not a TC for/against 05:55:18 Now I wrote the document: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sasl-captcha Now you can use CAPTCHA with any protocol that supports SASL, and not be so terrible like reCAPTCHA. 05:56:39 -!- tromp has joined. 06:01:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:42:10 Someone told me the only program they need on Windows is a video editing software, and prefers Linux for everything else (although better video editing software is available on Macintosh, but the video editing software on Linux is no good). Do you have an advice? 07:26:31 -!- tromp has joined. 07:42:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:47:07 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:59:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:23:34 Someone's been working on some pretty neat-looking video editing software in Haskell, which I'd hope works on Linux, I think it's called Kompositor? 08:30:21 zzo38: Run the program inside WINE, or inside a virtual machine? 08:30:29 Or run Linux on top of Windows with WSL2. 08:30:54 Taneb: Haneb 08:31:39 video editing inside wine sounds like fun for every cpu 08:32:05 What do you mean? 09:01:12 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 09:02:09 -!- nfd has joined. 09:05:44 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:28:22 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 09:28:41 -!- Lymia has joined. 10:03:31 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:05:51 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:40:33 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62470&oldid=62453 * Unlimiter * (+61) 10:40:58 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62471&oldid=62470 * Unlimiter * (-1) 10:41:06 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62472&oldid=62471 * Unlimiter * (+1) /* Hello World */ 11:06:27 shachaf: C++ is so lovely: https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L108-L123 11:06:57 (Though maybe the underlying truth is that I have no shame.) 11:07:07 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62473&oldid=62472 * Unlimiter * (+59) 11:07:55 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62474&oldid=62473 * Unlimiter * (-1) /* Counting up */ 11:08:35 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62475&oldid=62474 * Unlimiter * (+67) /* Countdown */ 11:09:29 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62476&oldid=62475 * Unlimiter * (+54) /* Counting up */ 11:11:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62477&oldid=62469 * A * (+6) An accumulator is not a memory system. 11:13:20 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62478&oldid=62477 * A * (+0) Because an accumulator is a data structure. Remove the ugly underline in the link. 11:19:19 -!- moei has joined. 11:43:23 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 11:56:44 -!- Cale has joined. 12:10:51 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:14:20 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:19:17 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:35:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:44:51 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62479&oldid=62478 * A * (+0) BFI requires character I/O. 12:49:28 [[NullScript 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62480 * A stone arachnid * (+2544) Created page with "'''NullScript 2''' is a esolang written by [[User:a stone arachnid|]] inspired by [[Deadfish~]] and [[bf]]. It stores data in a 256-cell prison, and has an 8-item FIFO paramet..." 13:24:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62481&oldid=62455 * Int-e * (+197) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ mention another implementation 13:25:22 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62482&oldid=62481 * Int-e * (+0) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ layout 13:25:49 -!- unlimiter has joined. 13:30:30 [[NullScript 2]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62483&oldid=62480 * A * (+75) Nice. 13:35:58 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62484&oldid=62479 * Int-e * (+99) /* Computational class */ mention PDAs 13:51:37 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62485&oldid=62484 * Int-e * (+1903) /* Common Algorithms */ Sketch bounded storage (adapted from talk page) 13:53:26 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 13:57:15 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 13:57:15 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62486&oldid=62485 * Int-e * (+46) /* Bounded storage */ tweak 13:58:48 -!- diginet_ has joined. 13:59:06 -!- Hooloo42 has joined. 13:59:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:00:10 -!- xvnvx- has joined. 14:00:52 -!- heroux_ has joined. 14:01:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:06:09 -!- john_metcalf has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:09 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:09 -!- rain1 has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:09 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:09 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:10 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:10 -!- diginet has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:10 -!- heroux has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:12 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 14:06:13 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 14:06:30 -!- arseniiv has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:30 -!- xvnvx has quit (*.net *.split). 14:06:43 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:08:42 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62487&oldid=62486 * A * (+12) That extra section is too distinctive. 14:12:17 -!- APic has joined. 14:13:32 -!- rain1 has joined. 14:13:36 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62488&oldid=62487 * Int-e * (+377) /* Subtraction */ present one unrolled operation 14:15:20 -!- Hooloo42 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:19:34 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:19:34 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:22:16 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62489&oldid=62488 * Int-e * (+34) /* Implementation */ C++ 14:23:13 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62490&oldid=62489 * A * (+40) /* Computational class */ 14:27:27 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 14:29:34 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:29:34 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:33:10 Brian Kernighan interviews Ken Thompson 14:35:59 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:35:59 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:43:47 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:43:47 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:49:44 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:49:44 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:59:29 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 14:59:29 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https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62491&oldid=62476 * Unlimiter * (+0) 15:55:32 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 15:55:32 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 15:58:28 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 15:58:28 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:01:24 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:01:24 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:04:25 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:04:25 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:07:21 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:07:21 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:10:26 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:10:27 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:15:18 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:15:19 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:18:15 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:18:15 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:21:16 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:21:16 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:24:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:24:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:27:06 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:27:07 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:27:51 -!- 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joined. 16:48:23 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:49:09 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:49:09 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:49:54 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 16:49:54 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 16:51:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:48 -!- tromp has joined. 17:00:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:26:41 int-e: What's unreasonable about that? 17:26:44 The cast? 17:28:47 casts, yes. 17:29:18 that, and explicit destructor invocations. 17:29:39 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 17:29:56 but it seems to work 17:30:22 even valgrind (memcheck) likes it 17:31:11 I should try that google thing, what was it again... address sanitizer? 17:32:24 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:33:54 Right. Address sanitizers doesn't like that the final delete gets a different type than the initial new. Not unexpected :) 17:34:21 One good trick is to just use C and no destructors. 17:37:22 is asan a google thing? 17:37:32 destructors are tg 17:37:36 raii 4 lyfe 17:40:40 doesn't raii just make it easier to write c++y code full of random allocations and other nonsense and get it right 17:45:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:48:01 also if you have destructors they free your memory at program exit, which i hear is a squander 17:48:06 so it seems that there's some stupid magic by which the destructor communicates the object size to the global delete operator 17:48:33 oh boy 17:48:39 tddnh 17:50:06 ah, maybe not. 17:58:10 doesn't seem that magic? because delete is templated 17:58:13 or effectively so 17:58:19 it knows the static type 17:58:29 and also, objects with virtual stuff have the size in the vtable typically 17:58:36 virtual destructors are important 17:59:12 Presumably the goal here to avoid having a vtable. 17:59:26 yeah it's the operator delete() that needs tweaking to do the (shifty) thing I attempted. 18:00:45 https://github.com/int-e/bitch/blob/master/cc/shifty.cc#L126-L141 18:01:17 imo you should get on the #define Case break; case bandwagon 18:01:20 it's tg 18:02:22 This is at least borderline insane though because operator delete has too many variants. 18:03:21 shachaf: so how does that work with automatic indentation? 18:03:30 syntax highlighting too 18:03:38 It works fine with my syntax highlighting. 18:03:48 Not sure about automatic indentation. 18:04:48 and what's the story of operator delete and calling destructors, hmm. 18:06:38 Okay, in a delete expression, the destructor is called first, then the operator delete. 18:07:46 -!- adu has joined. 18:08:30 Yes. 18:09:19 Why do you need to delete anything in that code, though? 18:09:22 I guess because of mpz? 18:10:23 because I wanted an algebraic datatype. 18:11:06 lit links to an mpz integer; bop links to a nested operation that needs to be cleaned up. 18:11:27 uh oh, you're overloading main 18:11:40 in a namespace? 18:11:54 I guess that might be allowed. 18:17:26 oh clang++ doesn't like this at all, it seems not to know about the sized version of ::operator delete... 18:18:02 tbf that's a C++14 thing. 18:18:21 Is it an old version of clang? 18:18:28 Or maybe you need -std=c++14 or something. 18:18:47 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:19:17 hmm, yes, it's old. 18:26:44 Whatever, let's pay the price for a vtable instead. 18:27:32 vtables are such a scow imo 18:27:51 why does c++ gotta do it like that 18:27:58 -!- economicsbat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:27:58 Have you considered a union instead? 18:28:00 -!- economicsbat_ has joined. 18:28:15 I think it'd just be easier since you're already effectively emulating one. 18:28:36 well, not quite 18:29:03 What's the difference? 18:29:15 (with a union you typically allocate as much memory as required by the largest alternative) 18:30:13 Oh, I guess. 18:30:44 None of this is a huge deal... the code resulted from a desire to explore, not an actual requirement. 18:31:14 If I wanted to save memory I'd do the parsing on the fly rather than building an AST. 18:31:45 Presumably the thing you want to save is cache, not memory. 18:31:59 also, next time I go down this route I'll probably use the non-sized version of ::operator delete. 18:32:35 again, for better locality I should parse on the fly. bitch syntax is so simple. 18:33:23 whoa, you're mixing /8 and &7 18:33:25 v. confusing 18:33:57 Heh, I'm not really sure why. 18:34:29 I know why I used /8, but I don't know why I didn't use %8. 18:34:38 I guess it's not v. confusing, it's pretty straightforward. 18:35:14 (/8 is easier to relate to &7 than >>3 is) 18:35:47 Right, because 7=8-1 18:35:53 Whereas 8=1<<3 18:35:55 So it's not confusing. 18:39:40 Wait, so is this op thing just an AST? 18:39:45 yes 18:39:53 Golly. 18:39:59 well the "T" is very much an overstatement 18:40:08 ASA? 18:40:40 hmm, I don't know what the "A" stands for there. 18:40:55 Array? 18:41:13 Ah. I was thinking geometrically so I'd say "line", probably. 18:41:17 I guess mean I program, not op. 18:41:20 I lost the link. 18:42:01 program is a bunch of ops, so it's an abstract syntax comb. 18:42:15 Anyway you could allocate these things like cool people do, in an arena. 18:45:07 But I guess operating on the code directly like you said makes more sense. 18:45:17 maybe another time 18:46:06 (In principle I have some ideas for transforming the operations, but I won't explore that in C++. Also maybe I should stop spending time on bitch. :) ) 18:46:26 I don't even know what this language is. 18:46:30 TC-ness is still open, but that won't be solved by new interpreters :) 18:47:04 Did you ever say what int-e means? 18:47:09 Is it int $0xe? 18:47:14 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:47:17 https://esolangs.org/wiki/bitch ;-) 18:47:28 I've seen that link before. 18:47:31 No, I don't think I ever did. 18:47:35 But I find the name unappealing so I don't click it. 18:47:42 -!- Melvar has joined. 18:47:50 Yeah the name is needlessly offensive. 18:48:12 I think of it as bit-changer or something in that vicinity. 19:07:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:18:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:28:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:33:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:13:40 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 20:17:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:30:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:41:11 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:53:20 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:53:21 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:53:50 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:53:50 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:54:12 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:54:12 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:54:43 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:54:43 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:55:16 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 20:55:16 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:56:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:00:31 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 21:00:31 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 21:01:02 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 21:04:34 sorry about the join/part spam, not sure what znc did 21:05:40 Hooloovo0 has quit [Excess Flood] <-- some disagreement on the acceptable rate limits :) 21:06:06 I'm not sure what was flooding 21:06:43 Joining a million channels at once? I don't really have any good guess. 21:06:57 oh, I guess that's why it was only freenode 21:08:28 I guess it's never done that consistently enough that it mattered 21:21:37 -!- aloril__ has joined. 21:25:02 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:36:10 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 22:02:16 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:05:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:05:23 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:16:32 kmc: pg&e is telling me to be a prepper what do i do twh 22:16:47 prep 22:17:06 what did they say 22:17:16 "suggest customers prepare for outages that could last longer than 48 hours" 22:17:32 yeah 22:17:33 they don't give an upper bound so i assume they mean infinity 22:17:43 you should be ready to live w/o power 22:24:25 -!- b_jonas has joined. 22:24:44 hello, #esoteric. I'm back home from my vacation. it was great. 22:25:23 `welcome b_jonas 22:25:25 b_jonas: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 22:25:40 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:27:32 has anything important happened here? 22:29:51 hi all! Had somebody considered making a card deck based on a nontrivial combinatorial design? Like, relations between cards be inferred from the mathematical structure behind the deck design. Like, not some A × B (suits and ranks) or maybe A × B + C (Tarot) but something more intricate 22:30:10 b_jonas: hello! It seems a lucky coincedence 22:30:40 there’s an idea I have, but it’s not that bright 22:32:33 I take a R-algebra for some finite ring R and… and there are either too many authomorphisms or too many elements (cards) or there’s too few elements 22:32:41 and it looks too uniform 22:33:05 arseniiv: cards, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-15.2307.html and http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-07-22.2308.html and I think there's one more article by David Madore somewhere 22:33:43 arseniiv: talks about the card game Dobble, also mentioning Set, but also new possibilities not realized by previously known card games 22:34:21 `olist 1164 22:34:22 olist 1164: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 22:35:00 an olist? was there another one while I was away? 22:38:51 of course, authomorphisms aren’t necessary that bad: in chess, one faces 8 indistinguishable pawns and lives, and here it’s even more interesting. Let’s say we are in Z_3^3 acted by S_3 on coordinates, then there is of course an orbit (120, 102, 012, 210, 201, 021), but there are also smaller orbits, which could make us some semantic distinctions on cards of these orbits, and also we can in some cases act by A_3 only, *and* also th 22:38:51 ere is anyway a distinction if we draw 130 then 301, or if we draw 130 then 310. Though I’m not sure as to how exactly one could harness all that, and also I’d like a bit more interesting design than this R-module or R-algebra one 22:39:20 b_jonas: thanks, I’ll look at these! Hopefully they aren’t all in French :D 22:40:58 oh okay they both are. Guess I’ll bother some frankophone friend nearby 22:43:48 arseniiv: http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2004-07-26.0703.html is about Set, in English because it's old, but that's not the extra article I've mentioned 22:44:56 b_jonas: hm even without translation it definitely looks very to the point, thank you once more. Have you been somewhat interested in this topic too, or do you just really have most David’s posts memorized? :D 22:45:14 oh, I meant the previous about two former posts 22:46:04 also maybe Set was what in the end influenced this in me, who knows 22:46:20 arseniiv: also about dobble https://math.stackexchange.com/q/464932 and some other questions linked from there 22:46:51 arseniiv: I don't have all his posts memorized, especially not because his blog is quite old now, and I haven't read all the articles from before I started reading them 22:47:07 but in this case I just had to search for "Dobble" in the title index 22:47:29 I also have bookmarks for some of the more useful articles on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn 22:48:01 no new post in a month is unusual by the way, in two more weeks I'll start to worry 22:48:24 also I’d like, in a particular design, for each card to be related in some way differently to all others than any other one. I don’t think I understand how this should be formalized, for example it shouldn’t be a group action, that’s too strict 22:49:21 b_jonas: mmhm 22:50:48 anyway, it’s definitely a lucky coincidence. I even hadn’t thought to ask here initially 22:51:15 though it’s a perfect place, if one to think about that 22:51:50 and obviously you should look at all the traditional card sets that have cards in each combination of 8 or 13 or 14 ranks and 4 suits, plus perhaps a separate major arcana trump suit or jokers; there's also rare five-suit variants 22:52:10 the number or ranks varies a lot, there are games played with just 6 ranks too 22:53:18 what symmetry this has depends on the game played of course 22:55:16 wow, two updates to bobadventures 22:55:22 but usually there’s an ambient symmetry of suits, unbroken or almost unbroken 22:55:47 so I’d look for something wild 22:57:28 I wouldn't say that, because bridge is a popular game and it's very much not symmetric among suits 22:57:29 one of the goals is to have a divination deck :D I don’t think I’d use it even in any story ideas, but it could be interesting to try to devise sufficiently logical semantics for each card based at what it does to others 22:57:59 there are divination decks too, but you asked for ones with a nontrivial combinatorial design, and they don't have that 22:58:18 unfortunately 22:59:43 http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190514.html is that... a minifig of a warforged? 23:08:34 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 23:40:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:43:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 2019-05-22: 00:19:44 [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62492&oldid=62483 * A stone arachnid * (+55) 00:22:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:28:51 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:40:46 -!- CutestKitten has joined. 00:43:35 -!- CutestKitten has quit (Client Quit). 00:55:28 [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62493&oldid=62492 * A * (-45) Oops. 00:56:34 [[NullScript 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62494&oldid=62493 * A * (+71) 00:59:08 [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62495&oldid=62464 * A * (+5) 00:59:52 [[Mandelbrot set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62496&oldid=62495 * A * (-112) /* External links */ 01:00:11 -!- adu has joined. 01:08:36 [[History (programming language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62497&oldid=61735 * A * (+39) 01:13:01 -!- nfd has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:45:30 need hugs 01:45:31 will trade hugs for hugs 01:45:50 wow 01:45:53 that's a good deal 01:46:08 ikr 01:47:55 i have a headache and it's my fault too 02:05:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:59:18 kmc: what kind of prepping should i do 03:01:13 shachaf: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/EPO/Pages/PrepareanEmergencySupplyKit.aspx 03:02:51 golly 03:03:35 * adu hugs kmc 03:06:50 hugs 03:10:18 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 03:24:32 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:25:04 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62498&oldid=61684 * Truttle1 * (+72) Added Argh! 03:26:06 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62499&oldid=62498 * Truttle1 * (+3) Alphabetical Order... 03:58:45 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 03:59:02 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62500&oldid=62490 * A * (-20) The description seems very wordy. 03:59:39 Bitch-machine 04:06:27 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62501&oldid=62069 * A * (-25) Be objective 04:06:40 [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62502&oldid=58411 * Oerjan * (+58) People seem to still think Malbolge is only programmed by brute force search, so put something in the intro 05:28:14 -!- dog_star has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:33:54 -!- dog_star has joined. 06:17:51 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62503&oldid=62500 * A * (-14) int-e has made two infinite-precision interpreters. 06:24:46 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62504&oldid=62503 * A * (+2) /* Possible with adjustments */ 06:25:07 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62505&oldid=62504 * A * (-2) Oops, I typed Chinese 06:27:06 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62506&oldid=62505 * A * (-1) 06:38:41 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62507&oldid=62501 * A * (+17) /* List of candidates */ 06:39:00 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62508&oldid=62507 * A * (+0) /* List of candidates */ 06:48:37 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:58:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:05:27 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:08:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:31:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:35:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:38:07 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:38:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 08:15:16 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:30:06 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:32:40 -!- nfd has joined. 08:36:05 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:36:57 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 08:37:09 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:50:10 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 09:17:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:17:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:19:33 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:23:11 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:36:11 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:36:42 The ICFP contest 2019 is now announced. https://icfpcontest2019.github.io/ 09:36:47 `icfplist 09:36:48 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: icfplist: not found 09:37:34 ICFP contest starts on 2019-06-21T10:00Z. That's less than a month from now. 09:42:38 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:44:00 ok! 10:06:00 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:08:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:26:32 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62509&oldid=62482 * A * (+155) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 10:30:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62510&oldid=62509 * A * (+227) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 11:09:33 I'm missing good hungarian food though. I should eat something tomatoey with sweet spices 11:12:23 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62511&oldid=62506 * Int-e * (+0) /* Possible with adjustments */ \ is for input and / is for output... 11:17:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62512&oldid=62510 * Int-e * (+249) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ no 11:20:06 wob_jonas: who has time for that! 12:57:08 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62513&oldid=62512 * A * (+149) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:57:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62514&oldid=62513 * A * (+130) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 13:04:32 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62515&oldid=62514 * A * (+455) /*Sketch: A RAM Machine*/ : Wow, the macro replacements can act as variables! 13:04:52 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62516&oldid=62515 * A * (+4) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ : Indentation 13:05:04 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62517&oldid=62516 * A * (-2) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 13:13:04 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62518&oldid=62517 * A * (+118) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ 13:41:53 [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62519&oldid=62202 * A * (-9) Abandoned languages are not WIP's 13:43:45 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62520&oldid=61708 * A * (-2) /* News */ 13:44:26 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62521&oldid=62520 * A * (-1) /* A's attempts */ 13:45:37 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62522&oldid=62521 * A * (-6) /* A's attempts */ : I seemed to be overreacting throughout the proof... 13:45:54 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62523&oldid=62522 * A * (-353) /* News */ : I think that is trivial 13:49:40 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62524&oldid=62523 * A * (-1431) /* A's attempts */ 13:49:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 13:57:08 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62525&oldid=62524 * A * (+1431) Undo revision 62524 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 13:58:14 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62526&oldid=62525 * A * (-175) /* First */ 14:02:14 [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62527&oldid=62526 * A * (-1256) /* A's attempts */ A one-instruction minimalization seems trivial. 14:06:05 -!- unlimiter has joined. 14:07:45 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62528&oldid=62499 * A * (-33) /* Bit Stupid */ 14:09:43 https:esolangs.org/wiki/Point <- new esolang 14:09:52 oops 14:10:08 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Point 14:21:18 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: thanks guys.). 14:53:08 -!- unlimiter has joined. 15:00:55 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 15:36:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:41:56 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:44:53 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:45:20 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:12:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:07:27 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 17:09:37 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:13:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:31:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:19:09 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 18:19:22 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 19:51:00 -!- b_jonas has joined. 20:13:55 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 20:16:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:45:50 -!- sleepnap has joined. 20:53:50 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:07:44 -!- sleepnap has joined. 21:15:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:18:23 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:28:15 -!- sleepnap has joined. 21:37:36 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:39:46 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:50:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:56:50 `? hug 21:56:52 hug? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:56:56 -!- tromp has joined. 21:57:14 `? tanebvention 21:57:15 Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 21:57:59 `slwd tanebvention//s/sanity,/& the hug,/ 21:58:01 tanebvention//Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex. 21:59:04 `? grace period 21:59:06 The grace period was invented by Taneb to give him more time to invent the Oxford comma, but he ran out anyway. 22:04:09 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:06:57 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:06:58 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:15:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:27:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:59:56 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:21:03 -!- tromp has joined. 23:25:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:54:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 2019-05-23: 00:09:39 -!- tromp has joined. 00:13:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 257 seconds). 00:41:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 01:03:27 -!- tromp has joined. 01:07:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:14:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 01:23:01 -!- adu has joined. 01:38:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:39:56 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:29:13 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:31:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:32:09 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:34:33 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 02:35:00 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!). 02:37:31 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Client Quit). 02:48:46 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 02:50:34 -!- moony has joined. 02:51:27 -!- tromp has joined. 02:56:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:41:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 03:42:47 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 04:25:24 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 04:39:45 -!- tromp has joined. 04:44:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:02:08 -!- sleepnap has joined. 05:05:09 -!- tromp has joined. 05:09:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:28:32 -!- sleepnap has left. 05:41:03 -!- nfd has joined. 05:42:16 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:43:37 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:46:22 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:59:46 -!- tromp has joined. 06:04:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:12:11 -!- tromp has joined. 06:16:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:22:42 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 06:22:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:26:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:52:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:56:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:00:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:04:41 -!- tromp has joined. 07:04:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:27:41 -!- sftp_ has joined. 07:28:01 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 07:28:24 -!- sftp_ has changed nick to sftp. 07:40:48 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:44:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:01:13 Ah, I seem to have invented something new 08:01:48 `? hug 08:01:49 hug? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:01:56 Although no-one knows what it is 08:08:12 Or at least HackEso doesn't. 08:27:58 . o O ( hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ ) 08:28:36 do it 08:31:47 `learn hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ 08:31:49 Learned 'hug': hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ 08:51:29 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:40:41 -!- mniip has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:40:54 -!- mniip has joined. 11:22:27 -!- MDude has joined. 12:02:49 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:09:26 Are those tentacle arms? 12:11:10 I haven't made up my mind about that. 12:12:01 Guess such would be good for hugging, fair enough. 12:12:18 The arems are clearly floppy. But beyond that I wasn't sure :) 12:12:27 *arms 12:58:43 nice arms :D 13:03:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:07:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:09:01 `? hug 13:09:02 hug? ¯\_/¯\(°​_o)/¯\_/¯ 13:09:03 `? pug 13:09:04 pug? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:10:24 `? piréz 13:10:25 piréz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:15:10 -!- coffeeturtle1 has joined. 13:43:10 I can't see it 13:43:48 to me it looks like ¯\([ZERO_WIDTH_SPACE])/¯ 13:55:17 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62529&oldid=62161 * A * (+63) 13:55:42 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62530&oldid=62304 * A * (-503) Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}" 14:16:31 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:27:08 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:07:24 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:24:21 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:54:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:06:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:09 [[User:Odog8]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62531 * Odog8 * (+132) Created page with "I'm a coding PrOfEsSiOnAl learning Befunge, and making a Turing-complete two-command esolang. I also resuscitate dead esolang pages." 16:17:58 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:19:37 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:27:23 A’s strange nonetheless 16:28:27 Abd doesn't seem to believe in previewing edits 16:28:34 *And 16:53:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:05:58 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:10:07 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:14:07 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:08:45 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:14:54 Taneb: yesp 18:15:42 (I have trouble with previewing as well though... usually I try to get the content straight, and then find minor things to touch up afterwards. So more often than not I have 2 edits in a row.) 18:17:21 I often have more than two 18:18:42 . o O ( `learn "yesp" is a portmonteau of "yes" and "yep". -- too unoriginal but that typo confused me :) ) 18:28:52 `? setup 18:28:53 setup? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:29:01 `? set up 18:29:02 set up? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:37:30 `? set-up 18:37:31 set-up? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:51:45 -!- coffeeturtle1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:50 -!- adu has joined. 19:15:49 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Traveller * New user account 19:15:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 19:16:59 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:22:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62532&oldid=62460 * Traveller * (+106) 19:23:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62533&oldid=62532 * Traveller * (+80) 19:35:32 [ (2^4*8);(36-i.8)^9 19:35:33 b_jonas: ┌─────────┬────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ 19:35:33 b_jonas: │4.29497e9│1.0156e14 7.88156e13 6.0717e13 4.64115e13 3.51844e13 2.64396e13 1.9683e13 1.45071e13│ 19:35:33 b_jonas: └─────────┴────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ 19:35:46 [ (2^4*16);(36-i.8)^9 19:35:46 b_jonas: ┌──────────┬────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ 19:35:46 b_jonas: │1.84467e19│1.0156e14 7.88156e13 6.0717e13 4.64115e13 3.51844e13 2.64396e13 1.9683e13 1.45071e13│ 19:35:57 b_jonas: └──────────┴────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ 19:36:05 [ 2^4*11 19:36:05 b_jonas: 1.75922e13 19:36:09 ??? 19:36:13 sorry 19:36:20 just some powers and stuff 19:48:18 `? char 19:48:19 Char is a prominent component of charcoal. 19:48:20 `? charizard 19:48:21 charizard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:50:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:50:09 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 19:50:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 19:52:54 . o O ( `learn Charizard is a prominent component of charcoalizard. ) 19:58:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:01:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:02:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:08:11 [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62534&oldid=57780 * Traveller * (+813) 20:16:25 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:16:51 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:48:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 20:52:15 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:53:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62535&oldid=62518 * Int-e * (+3994) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ new section 20:54:22 Finally that's settled (for me, at least). No clue why it took so long, it's one of these things that are obvious in retrospect. 20:55:22 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:55:57 Cale: Is that from 1001 Nights? 20:57:40 (I have no clue how Scheherazade is pronounced, or spelled for that matter.) 20:59:02 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:01:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62536&oldid=62535 * Int-e * (+1) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ typo (there's always a typo) 21:14:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62537&oldid=62536 * Int-e * (+14) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ fix move of tape head 21:14:25 int-e: I think ti's just a reaction to wisdom/char 21:17:17 b_jonas: obviously 21:17:41 b_jonas: but why stop there? 21:35:25 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:54:32 https://twitter.com/Robinson_Nox/status/1131314949370851329 do you like this? 21:56:39 shachaf's the expert on dylt. 21:57:16 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 21:57:35 I am? 21:58:34 the lonely baba is cute 21:58:54 $ grep -i 'do you like this' * | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn 21:58:55 303 21:58:55 34 21:59:17 hmm you have a point 21:59:36 you're merely an apprentice by that standard :) 22:06:03 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:08:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:08:32 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:14:27 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:37:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:39:20 -!- arseniiv has joined. 22:56:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:17:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:28:27 -!- tromp has joined. 23:33:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:58:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 2019-05-24: 00:14:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:18:32 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:26:52 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 00:30:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:39:56 -!- FreeFull has quit. 01:16:42 -!- sleffy has joined. 01:16:45 -!- sleffy has quit (Client Quit). 01:59:33 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62538&oldid=61124 * DMC * (-335) 02:15:05 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62539&oldid=62443 * DMC * (-3872) Blanked the page 02:23:59 -!- adu has joined. 04:10:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spammer attacks * New user account 04:11:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62540&oldid=62533 * Spammer attacks * (+106) /* Introductions */ 04:27:58 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62541&oldid=62539 * Spammer attacks * (+104) You see, now I can edit the sandbox. This user detection process does not prevent spammer attacks. (Moderators: you can block me if you want to.) 04:28:09 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62542&oldid=62541 * Spammer attacks * (-104) Blanked the page 04:30:11 -!- Spammer has joined. 04:30:35 -!- Spammer has changed nick to Guest23246. 04:30:39 The esolangs.org wiki does not prevent spammer attacks. See what I just did! 04:31:00 (Note: You can block me if you want to.) 04:31:11 -!- Guest23246 has quit (Client Quit). 04:37:25 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 04:42:40 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 04:54:50 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:07:21 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:11:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:27:26 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 05:28:21 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 05:32:02 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:36:53 -!- tromp has joined. 05:37:46 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 05:38:07 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:41:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:11:18 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:11:39 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:13:12 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:18:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 06:18:09 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 06:18:09 -!- Vorpal has joined. 06:42:49 -!- J_Arcane has left. 06:59:04 -!- tromp has joined. 07:05:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 07:05:46 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:37:17 -!- ^[ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:39:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:43:56 -!- ^[ has joined. 07:44:31 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:02:46 -!- j4cbo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:06:18 -!- j4cbo has joined. 08:14:21 oh no!!!!! 08:15:36 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:35:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:43:53 huh? 08:53:58 -!- tromp has joined. 09:06:28 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:07:29 with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party? 09:07:29 wob_jonas: he's somebody else too 09:07:45 uh... that's not enough of a reason really 09:08:11 my hon. and learned friend fungot, do they have any specific promises besides not being the orange party? 09:08:11 wob_jonas: r2q2 annotated 2343 with " sum-of-squares" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? yes... unicode enabled? possibly... i'll do that 09:08:24 I think you're in the wrong style 09:08:26 ^style 09:08:26 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 09:08:34 ^style europarl 09:08:34 Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006) 09:08:38 let's start over 09:08:46 with the euparl elections coming up, can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize the campaign positions of the parties? why should I give my vote to the green-red party? 09:08:47 wob_jonas: mr president, in september, during the codecision procedure. 09:08:53 um... 09:09:25 my hon. and learned fungot, I understand that you find the codecision procedure is important, but what side will the red-green party represent there? 09:09:26 wob_jonas: mr president, before leaving for strasbourg from bergamo airport, i met a gmo who said to me: ' my dream is that all governments, we might also consider comitology. however that is not the commission's approach. so let us get some credit for our support and fully concur with what mr van den bos document is put to the vote. 09:10:10 ok, that's slightly more concrete. so you fully support mr van den bos's proposal 09:10:55 maybe you're more articulate when representing the other side. can my hon. and learned friend fungot summarize what the campaign of the orange party centers around? why should I give my votes to them? 10:07:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:10:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:19:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62543&oldid=62537 * A * (+132) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 10:51:03 what's the setsockopt option to modify the evil bit in outgoing messages for ip sockets? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html 11:09:33 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62544&oldid=62543 * A * (+94) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 11:10:07 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62545&oldid=62544 * A * (+1) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 11:48:17 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:48:22 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:48:47 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:49:32 -!- HackEso has joined. 11:50:36 -!- myname has joined. 12:00:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62546&oldid=62545 * Int-e * (+539) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ tweaks in reply to A 12:39:19 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62547&oldid=62546 * A * (-2171) /* Deadfish interpreter */ 12:39:40 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62548&oldid=62547 * A * (-613) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:39:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62549&oldid=62548 * A * (-122) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 12:42:38 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk). 12:46:42 [[Finite looping automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62550 * A * (+137) Created page with "[[Finite looping automaton]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]" 12:47:56 [[Finite looping automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62551&oldid=62550 * A * (+63) 12:49:48 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62552&oldid=62551 * A * (+278) 12:51:27 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62553&oldid=62552 * A * (+98) 12:58:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62554&oldid=62549 * Int-e * (+48) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ add user name (how did that happen...) 13:02:52 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62555&oldid=62553 * A * (+366) 13:05:38 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62556&oldid=62555 * A * (+95) 13:05:48 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62557&oldid=62556 * A * (+0) /* Infinte loop */ 13:05:55 [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Spammer attacks]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, autoblock disabled): "bad-hand" sockpuppeting, i.e. creating a new account to disrupt to make a point; please stick to your main account 13:06:41 -!- MDude has joined. 13:09:49 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62558&oldid=62529 * Ais523 * (+843) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */ new section 13:19:44 [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62559&oldid=57670 * A * (+502) Based on research, add an alternate account section. 13:22:49 [[Esolang:Help]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62560&oldid=62559 * A * (-503) Nope, it does not belong here. 13:23:08 [[Esolang:Policy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62561&oldid=46490 * A * (+357) 13:25:07 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62562&oldid=56960 * A * (+163) /* Looks like */ 13:26:08 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62563&oldid=62562 * A * (+85) /* BSM */ 13:36:31 that A guy is weird 13:39:03 [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62564&oldid=62561 * Ais523 * (-163) /* Policy summary */ if we're putting this here (although it's kind-of obvious), let's make this a bit more policy-like; it may be better off just deleted though 13:41:26 who remembers User:Spammer attacks 13:45:40 rain1: it was a short-lived account 13:46:36 06:10:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spammer attacks * New user account 13:46:39 15:05:55 [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Spammer attacks]] [...] 13:48:32 (And it was used to make the rather obvious point that a spammer can in principle easily overcome the new user introduction check, completely missing the point.) 13:49:08 (Which is that this actually does, for the time being, keep most spammers at bay.) 13:53:00 there is no protection against a directed attack 13:54:08 Yeah but wiki spam generally isn't targeted. You scan the internet for Mediawikis and go through a create-account-then-create-a-garbage-page procedure, and move on. 13:56:15 at least not on small wikis. large wikis like en.wikipedia are targeted specifically. 13:56:25 As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas. 13:56:59 Sure, wikipedia is attractive because search engines rank it highly. :) 13:57:14 (and users as well) 14:00:48 so we should just host unused mediawikis to encoyrage spammers to not hassle with small countermeasures 14:03:39 I suspect there's strategies here for using mediawiki spammers as free labour 14:05:34 myname: no, we have that outsourced to wikia.com 14:05:38 they host a lot of unused mediawikis 14:08:09 Taneb: you mean like that plan when you host a website with some useful service, but make it serve captchas that are stolen from another website where you want to create spam accounts, let the users of your good website solve the captchas (whether they're legitimate users or other spammers is irrelevant), and forwarding the solutions to the website 14:08:09 you're attacking? 14:25:47 . o O ( s/useful service/free porn/ ) 14:26:55 yeah, a non-useful service that people want to use might work better 14:53:52 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:54:19 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:00:15 but without spam, we wouldn't have real fast nora 15:00:44 Well, we would, it would just have a bad name 15:01:27 Also, *Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download 15:01:50 i fail to memorize that 15:02:14 `? nora 15:02:16 nora? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:02:22 `? real 15:02:23 The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. 15:15:11 should that wisdom entry refer to Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download? 15:29:07 `grWp nora 15:29:07 real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download:Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there. 15:29:21 Well, that's not very useful. 15:55:28 `learn The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. 15:55:30 Relearned 'real': The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. 15:55:38 `? real 15:55:39 The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. 15:55:40 `? earl 15:55:41 earl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:55:43 `? lear 15:55:44 lear? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:03:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:06:56 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:33:35 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:43:21 You can pay with them fast in Nora's Hair Salon. => omg :D 16:45:50 (I’ll try to be more constructive rather than post abbreviated reactions on random posts) 16:46:26 btw I have some reading on linear logic. Can’t say now I understand it, but nonetheless it’s better 16:53:07 s/have/had 17:20:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:31 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:06:19 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:07:49 arseniiv: don't feel bad about that, it seems that nobody understands linear logic in its full generality, people only understand various restricted cases which either forbid some expressions or add more axioms 18:10:17 arseniiv: https://twitter.com/gro_tsen/status/1084547915572568065 18:13:22 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:13:44 b_jonas: heh 18:13:51 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:14:32 I presume someone had tried to use the traditional tensor index notation to linear logic? As their categories are quite similar… 18:15:18 I don't understand that 18:15:31 though, meh, index notation can’t, as far as I know, represent ⊕ (vector one) 18:17:20 I mean, there’s that notation, liked especially by physicists, where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k f^k 18:17:23 oh 18:17:29 I’ll need to edit that 18:19:01 *where you write T_ij^k = f_i f_j A^k_k' v^k' for T = f ⊗ f ⊗ (Av), and which is often really helpful in trickier cases with many traces, (anti)symmetrizations and differentiations 18:19:56 but it doesn’t account for ⊕, so linear ⊕ and & wouldn’t be covered either 18:22:00 or maybe it does but I haven’t seen how it could be as visually simple and helpful as how ⊗ and various lifted tr’s and permutations are represented 18:23:13 covariant and contravariant indices do speak of negation, though 18:23:24 it’s tempting 18:26:14 and do one need pure ⊕ and & at all? Maybe one could work at representing ! and ? only… hm, no 18:33:30 though then I don’t understand how to represent even ⅋ 18:35:44 okay maybe there is a language akin to Martin-Löf-style type theory to write linear proofs. It should exist, as this logic is at least partially did find uses in programming, right? 18:36:06 sequent-style things are hard on my head 18:47:44 arseniiv: typically they look like "normal" languages but with an extra checking step which ensures liearity 18:48:08 e.g., Rust is an affine language, there is nothing syntactically preventing you from duplicating a value, but the compiler will complain 18:48:13 that may be an unsatisfying answer 18:48:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:50:30 That's only multiplicative linear logic or something, though. 18:50:55 arseniiv: Prolog, or maybe some linear variant of it, seems to me pretty similar to index notation. 18:51:24 I wrote about that in the past sometime. 18:56:07 kmc: I presume, an affine language has several additional term constructors, where can I read a more or less complete type system featuring them? To get some picture 18:56:51 there is a little bit about substructural types in ATaPL 18:57:36 oh, Pierce’s? 18:58:21 do you mean an advanced one or a simple one? (though I’ll take a look at both’s contents right away) 18:59:09 ah, I see, chapter 1 of advanced, thanks 18:59:31 hopefully this time I’ll make something of it, having more background now 19:00:09 shachaf: yeah, I seem to remember something about that 19:00:44 also sigfpe wrote something about tensory things in Haskell 19:01:02 which shared something with this idea 19:20:43 -!- TriMill has joined. 19:20:55 arseniiv: you probalby have to ask ais523 or read his thesis 19:21:38 whoa, the python standard library seems to have a function that lets you recognize a louse 19:22:00 b_jonas: wow, where can I find the thesis? 19:22:19 I mean, what’s it called 19:22:50 ``` python3 -c 'import itertools; help(itertools.islice)' 19:22:51 Help on class islice in module itertools: \ \ class islice(builtins.object) \ | islice(iterable, stop) --> islice object \ | islice(iterable, start, stop[, step]) --> islice object \ | \ | Return an iterator whose next() method returns selected values from an \ | iterable. If start is specified, will skip all preceding elements; \ | otherwise, start defaults to zero. Step defaults to one. If \ | specified as another value, step determine 19:23:01 arseniiv: I dunno, sorry 19:23:25 there's probably a link somewhere from the channel logs 19:25:59 b_jonas: hmm… then it’s more probable ais523 would instead come himself (noticing the mention) and link or hint to it 19:27:25 islice => (rofl) unexpected 19:50:17 -!- TriMill has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:05:15 -!- unlimiter has joined. 20:22:06 -!- moei has joined. 20:27:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:55 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: è-h"cré-'"ç564*/'(tv'(8t-+b'14). 20:42:23 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:46:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:51:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:09:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:09:55 suppose I have a dodecahedron; I place a fork on the middle of each edge, and a dining philosopher on each corner 21:10:17 the philosophers can eat if they can pick up two of the three adjacent forks 21:11:03 short of a global lock, is there any solution to this using the normal concurrency primitives, given that philosophers who want to eat need to start eating as soon as two forks are available, and shouldn't take any forks until two forks are available? 21:20:37 so, hmm. associate a condition variable to each philosopher that's signaled when a neighbouring fork is put back; then acquire forks in a predetermined global order? the global order is not nice in that it breaks the symmetry, but it's a standard way of avoiding deadlocks with many resources. 21:21:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:23:16 I have not thought this through yet. What exactly are the requirements wrt. fairness and starvation? 21:25:06 hey ais523! 21:25:41 ais523: have you seen the M:tG computation article I linked to? 21:26:20 ais523: I think there is a solution for it using mutexes, yes... let me think 21:26:33 hmm 21:26:48 any two of the three forks? that's tricky 21:27:40 maybe there isn't then... 21:28:27 a moment, I'm in the middle of solving a code golf problem 21:28:47 ais523: https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828 Alex Churchill, Stella Biderman, Austin Herrick "Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete" 21:29:18 also, arseniiv wanted to ask something about affine something or another and I pointed to you 21:31:38 ais523: hi, yeah 21:33:48 affine, linear, I’m not picky 21:37:56 I haven't seen it 21:38:22 ais523: do look at it 21:38:27 arseniiv: what's the question? that's "my field" (specifically affine logic, but linear's close enough that I picked a bit of that up too) 21:38:59 ais523: it's interesting enough, even if it's not strictly "better" than what you're doing. I even have a few comments about it from https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-05-09.html#l6b 21:39:19 b_jonas: I bet their deck can't actually win serious tournament games, but it might reach the other requirements I was aiming for 21:39:33 incidentally, I thought more about the wording of the rules for win conditions 21:39:35 but my comments don't tell everything, so it's better if you read the article 21:39:51 I'm reading it, but I can't read and talk on IRC at the same time 21:39:59 ais523: sure, but there are some techniques they use that you should know about 21:40:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:18 wrt the win conditions: I think you actually have three outcomes (not two): perfect loop, one player wins, and an infinite game that isn't a loop under M:tG's definition 21:41:45 ais523: for now, I’m only interested in basics. Say, some text on type theory for these logics. I think it’d clear many things for me, and I have no specific intentions above that yet 21:42:21 ais523: other outcomes are: the other player wins; the game is a draw for reasons other than a loop, such as losing life to get to zero life at the same time 21:42:38 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 21:42:41 kmc had already adviced me a chapter in Pierce’s advanced TaPL, I hadn’t yet read it 21:42:42 b_jonas: I meant from my construction 21:42:42 but as for an infinite game that's not a loop, I don't think I understand M:tG's loop rules enough to be able to tell what counts as such 21:43:03 it's clear that the judges use a fairly narrow definition of loops 21:43:28 arseniiv: full linear logic is ridiculously complex and few people use the whole thing, there are some pretty nice fragments of it though 21:44:47 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:45:06 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 21:46:36 ais523: mhm, a type theory for any its subsystem would be perfectly okay. Also do I get it right affine logic should be less complex, or is it more? 21:46:37 arseniiv: you might be interested in my PhD thesis , specifically chapter 5 21:47:04 an affine type system normally has exactly one more rule than the comparable linear type system 21:47:10 specifically, a weakening rule that lets you discard a variable from a context 21:47:39 thanks for the link! 21:47:44 but it rather depends on how you write the type system, there's more than one way to write them, with some of the more implicit methods the affine type system might be simpler I guess 21:48:32 ais523: when you say judges use a narrow definition of loop, does "loop" mean when they allow a player to shortcut a loop without explaining all its details, or instead for awarding a draw for an infinite loop that can't be broken? 21:48:39 there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand 21:48:49 b_jonas: both, I believe, although this is from memory so I'm not 100% sure 21:48:49 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:49:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:49:18 it wouldn't surprise me if the rules were poorly-defined in this case 21:49:37 I think the infinite loop rules are poorly defined in at least some other sense 21:50:11 but for all I know, they might be well defined enough for the loops that you have in your turing-machine construction 21:50:30 because they're ones where the players can't make any meaningful choices 21:51:34 b_jonas: well, if we're going from The Waterfall Model, I suspect a loop in the M:tG sense either leaves all the counters the same, or possibly increases counters that never zero 21:51:55 (come to think of it, this is pretty similar to what ratiofall optimizes at optimization level 2, except that ratiofall doesn't remember as much history) 21:52:08 I suspect that the rules are supposed to imply that if the players can make no meaningful choices (other than resigning) and the game continues that way infinitely, that shall result in a draw. 21:52:39 there's background earlier in the thesis in case there's anything there you don't understand > right :) 21:53:35 which means that if the waterfall machine doesn't terminate, and you correctly start its simulation in M:tG, then the game is a draw 21:53:40 chapter 5's good for learning about affine type systems because it starts with a type system for (a mathematically idealized version of) Algol, a practical language, and then a few pages later shows the affine version of the same langauge 21:54:12 (hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…) 21:54:46 (hm I’m still undecided how to quote better in line-based chats like IRC…) ← I like using left arrows 21:55:37 b_jonas: "104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop”of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw." ← I believe the current intention is to interpret "repeating" narrowly, not sure though 21:56:19 "720.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated indefinitely (thus creating a“loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how the loop is broken." 21:56:27 "720.1c Tournamentsuse a modified version of the rules governing shortcuts and loops. These rules are covered in the Magic: The GatheringTournament Rules (found at WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents).Whenever the Tournament Rules contradict these rulesduring a tournament, the Tournament Rules take precedence." 21:56:48 it didn’t occur to me until a week or so ago it’s way better to start a quote with its author’s name, though. In another, way smaller, channel of three it worked before I started to misread my own posts 21:57:09 ais523: right, 720.4 is also relevant 21:57:15 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 21:57:59 b_jonas: when not using the tournament rules, loops are clearly defined in 720.1c as being shortcuttable, and 720.2a disallows conditional actions in shortcuts 21:58:43 ais523: hmm, so you want to decide how this works per the tournament rules, not per just the comp rules? 21:58:45 this leads me to conclude that the loop must be a repeat of the exact same sequence of actions, so something as simple as the three-counter program where the time between counter switches grows exponentially is likely not a loop in the M:tG sense 21:58:46 that might be differnt 21:59:31 however, I think the three-counter program in question is simple enough to translate to a reasonable-looking M:tG gamestate 22:00:02 4.4 Loops A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".) 22:00:12 that's /very/ clear 22:00:30 so we may be able to find a pretty simple infinite game 22:00:45 (i.e. forced actions only, but without ever exactly repeating) 22:02:06 haha, here we go: each player has no permanents in play, and in their library has four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi, all the other cards they started with got exiled somehow 22:02:38 or, hmm, ideally their maximum hand size should be 0 so they don't have a choice of what to discard 22:03:20 ais523: oh wait wait, don’t you accidently remember a time I had asked about encoding different states of a life cycle of a value in its type, didn’t you by the way said something about substructural typing? I got to reading Pierce now and remembered about that poor idea 22:04:08 arseniiv: possibly; I don't remember that but it's not particularly out of character for me, it might have been someone else though 22:04:59 okay 22:06:01 b_jonas: OK, here's the situation: each player has two copies of Thought Devourer enchanted with Pacifisms on the battlefield, their library consists of four copies of each of the Eldrazi titans from Rise of the Eldrazi plus four copies of Evermind, graveyards are empty, rest of their deck is irrelevant cards in exile 22:06:29 nobody can possibly do anything other than draw for turn and discard to hand size, discarding an Eldrazi titan forces a shuffle, discarding Evermind doesn't 22:06:57 ir's clear that the game can't progress but it's also clearly not a loop under the tournament rules definitions and almost certainly not a loop under the comprehensive rules definitions either 22:07:01 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:07:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:08:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:08:48 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:09:03 ais523: I was thinking like the oppoenent has a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher of his under, and I have a Faceless Butcher with a Faceless Butcher under, and there are no other creatures on tb, and I cast a Faceless Butcher, 22:09:56 which according to the tournament rules isn't a loop, because for each trigger, the player has his choices restricted depending on what the opponent did before, so their actions will be conditional on the opponent's actions 22:10:01 but I might be misunderstanding this 22:10:29 but perhaps a better example would be some kind of power of two loop 22:14:45 say, each player is locked down with an empty hand and a Null Profusion, and I have a Chronozoa 22:15:07 no wait, that wouldn't be conditional 22:15:29 but the loop actions wouldn't be "identical in each iteration", no matter how long you choose an iteration 22:15:35 it's aperiodic 22:16:17 yes, aperiodic is probably sufficient 22:16:26 ah yes, what you said works to make it conditional depending on randomness 22:20:45 #magicjudges-rules just told me that this situation isn't actually covered by the rules at all 22:21:40 yeah... as for what the rules don't cover, at some point I should write a proper question about how linked abilities work, because I think the rules don't cover that either, but I'd like to know what the judges actually think 22:24:18 it was nice back when Wizards still had its own forum, and their rules manager read rules questions there and patched holes found 22:24:26 do they read the scryfall forum now? 22:24:44 um 22:24:47 the mtgsalvation forums 22:25:06 or do they communicate only through twitter? 22:25:23 their employees come on Reddit occasionally, but it's very sporadic 22:25:52 Mark Rosewater's Tumblr account also used to have a lot of discussion; it probably still does but I can't access it any more because it's doing something weird wrt browsers 22:26:01 also I still want to know why Hollow Dogs is not a skeleton, but that's not the rules manager's thing 22:34:20 hmm, I read the paper, that construction's way more complex than mine 22:34:36 although it's implementing a Turing machine directly rather than something simple like The Waterfall Model 22:34:59 that said, I think they're wrong about an infinite loop being a draw unless it's a perfect loop, but it doesn't really change the main result of their paper 22:35:00 ais523: yes it is, partly because they don't seem to know about StackFlow 22:36:03 but the construction has some interesting elements, such as useful (in such constructions) cards that I didn't know abt 22:36:20 TWM is basically StackFlow with only one type of symbol 22:36:54 do you suppose we should email the corresponding author with some of the stuff you've figured out? 22:37:58 TWM matches M:tG even better, sure, because popping each stack at the same time is natural in MTG 22:38:30 I've emailed Alex Churchill in the past; also spoken to someone on Reddit who is highly likely to be Stella Biderman, although I don't know that for certain 22:39:24 on the other hand their construction is small, in the sense that they know a TM that's much smaller than any universal waterfall program is likely to be 22:39:37 so they need less than 30 creature types 22:39:42 Discussing Turing-completeness and other stuff like that in Magic: the Gathering is also the point of news:un2.org.zzo38computer.magic.maths 22:39:55 I think 10 counters is likely to be more than enough in TWM 22:40:04 oh? 22:40:06 maybe I should get around to actually making a TCness proof rather than trying to optimise it 22:40:17 Creatues have a lot of subtypes. 22:40:30 Is there any construction that depends on exactly how many creature types are there? 22:40:47 I would be very surprised if it's possible with 4; 5 is unlikely but the lowest number that would seem vaguely plausible; the true number is probably 7 or 8, I'd guess 22:40:53 (new version of the rules that they add some, then, will ruin it) 22:40:53 but I might not be able to find the construction 22:41:11 zzo38: almost every construction has a minimum number of required creature types, but it's hard to see how a construction would have a maximum number 22:41:20 you'd need a card with rules text like "choose a creature type that hasn't been chosen" 22:42:03 zzo38: I don't know of one, but I imagine you could read the number of creature types, at least mod 2, with a construction that specifically tries to do that 22:42:53 b_jonas: Yes, something like that was my idea 22:43:25 ais523: no, you just need "choose a creature type, create a token", and another with "two creatures that share a creature type" 22:43:43 ooh, neat 22:43:54 maybe we can create a machine that can count how many creature types exist in Magic? 22:45:04 something like that 22:45:36 a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses 22:46:51 I wonder if you could also do that with card names using the un-card ____ 22:48:40 a game where two players alternately have to choose a new creature type, and whoever can't loses ← that sounds like it could be printable as an Un-card 22:48:41 oh hmm 22:48:57 but yes, it's probably possible to set it up with some combo or other 22:49:33 here's something simple you could do in a deck that's at least as viable as your potence deck after you go off: 22:51:44 have a Mistform Wall grown to 50/50, give your opponent 1000 clones of Riders of Gavony 22:52:14 they get to list any number of creature types, and after that, if you can choose a creature type that they forgot, you win 22:52:48 and in a tournament, I think they wouldn't be allowed to look at the rules that list all creature types 22:52:53 they'd have to do it off the top of their head 22:53:41 mind you, you also couldn't look at notes 22:53:50 you'd have to learn creature types in advance 22:54:16 obviously this too is one that's harder to pull off than to just win 22:58:59 The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop. 22:59:19 have fun :-) 23:07:20 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 23:10:58 Completely different thing. In Budapest, on air-conditioned trams, each door has a timeout so if nobody goes through the door, the door closes, even if the tram is still standing in the station, and passangers can reopen the door by pressing the exit button, either from the inside or the outsied 23:12:08 Now I was in the Netherlands for a holiday. In Amsterdam, the tram doors close on a timeout, but there's no sensor recognizing that passengers are passing through it, so they close on a timer even while people are actively getting off or on. 23:12:40 So like every third passenger has to press the button while passengers are getting off, or else the door agressively closes on them. 23:12:52 And since Amsterdam is full of tourists, passengers often don't know this. 23:13:03 Very annoying user interface decision for apparently no reason. 23:14:41 that's odd 23:14:57 the trams here sometimes open their doors automatically and sometimes don't and it confuses me 23:15:01 i'm not sure exactly what determines it 23:15:07 I know they always open underground 23:16:01 Mind you, in Budapest there's still one annoying case when a tram door can close on passengers. The "TW 6000" type trams have high stairs in the doors, with two intermediate steps, both of which are wobbly so people try to avoid stepping on them. There's a pressure sensor for at least one of the steps, and a photosensor a quite low height. 23:16:10 in the UK, many causes of train-related accidents have been reduced to a pretty low levle, leaving "people getting stuck in doors" as a fairly large proportion of train incidents 23:16:25 meaning that there's a lot of pressure to try to reduce the frequency with which they occur 23:16:32 a lady got her hair stuck in the ddors and got dragged by a train here :O 23:16:35 i think she was ok 23:16:36 so train doors can act quite bizarrely sometimes, especially when they're closing 23:16:37 When someone is getting on with a baby carriage (pram), they usually try lift the carriage straight up from the ground to the high tram floor, which bypasses both the photosensor and the weight sensor, 23:16:38 scary though 23:16:48 so the tram door can try to close on the baby carriage, which is pretty annoying. 23:16:49 b_jonas: tricky 23:17:03 But frankly, that type of tram is terrible anyway because of the two wobbly steps. 23:17:07 low floor trams w/o steps are much better 23:17:28 That type currently runs on tram line 24. 23:17:53 kmc: the UK does the reverse pretty much, instead of a low floor they have high platforms on the kerb that let you get up to the level of the tram before stepping onto it 23:18:13 and those are the only places the tram stops 23:18:19 -!- TriMill has joined. 23:18:27 (in Birmingham/Wolverhampton, at least, other cities' tram systems may be different) 23:18:30 ais523: we have high platforms on some lines, but they're not as high as proper high floors, only as high as the higher low floor trams. 23:19:45 The point is that a tram with high floor has more space for people and seats, because the wheel assemblies are below the floor, whereas in low floor trams they protrude so much above the floors that you can only put one-and-a-half wide seats on them, which is really a waste. 23:19:54 ais523: yeah 23:20:00 here there are mini high platforms for disabled people 23:20:07 but the train only stops there on request 23:20:08 This wasted space is the reason why high floor trams were used so much. 23:20:12 (and not every aboe ground stop has them) 23:20:16 the stairs are motorized 23:20:24 the provision for disabled people on the trains (as opposed to the trams) is weird 23:20:28 when it's at a mini high platform, or in the underground segments, the stairs go up for level boarding 23:20:41 there's normally a gap in both horizontal and vertical directions between train and platform 23:21:07 they are going to convert Caltrain (the commuter rail) to high platforms, and to do so they have ordered new trains (they have to anyway, because of electrification) which have two sets of doors at different heights 23:21:07 so if a wheelchair-bound person wants to board a staff member from the station has to arrive with a portable ramp to let them on and off 23:21:12 seems a bit silly but probably the best way to manage it 23:21:18 ais523: yeah that's how it works on Caltrain right now 23:21:43 there is a very silly regulatory difficulty with high platforms 23:21:49 "mind the gap" is a very common announcement at British rail stations and aboard trains, to the point that it became a meme several decade ago 23:21:50 which is that a few freight trains use the caltrain line 23:22:02 and it is still legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight trains 23:22:07 and they couldn't clear the high platforms 23:22:24 There's fancy automated ramps in buses here. 23:22:30 it's been mostly replaced with "please mind the gap between the train and the platform edge" which is less snappy, but still possibly memable 23:22:32 it's fun when you're on the platform and a freight train blows through 23:22:48 I noticed in Poland that there was often a large gap between the train and the platform 23:22:51 like almost a foot 23:22:54 Some of the tube stations with curved platforms have pretty substatial gaps, on some sets of doors. 23:22:54 seems dangerous 23:23:00 I guess the loading gauges are not very standardized 23:23:01 a foot is /small/ for the UK 23:23:13 although people falling into the gaps is fairly rare 23:23:22 ais523: in some parts of the Amsterdam Schiphol airport, some automatic speakers say "mind your step" very often. I think it's related to the walking strips (horizontal conveyor belts for humans, with fences like that of escalators). 23:23:22 Sometimes it's "avoid the step down from the train to the platform". 23:23:24 fizzie: the curved stations in the NYC subway, at least some of them, have motorized gap fillers that pop out when the train stops 23:23:45 (there was an incident a while back where someone fell into the gap and got stuck and they recruited pretty much the entire passenger list of the train to push the train a few millimetres sideways to let them escape) 23:24:01 The jump down from Southern's trains at Clapham Junction is sometimes ridiculously high. 23:24:34 kmc: it's legal for workers to hang off the sides of freight _trains_? wow 23:24:38 yes 23:24:40 I've never seen that here 23:24:52 it can be useful, if they are street running 23:24:55 or working in yards 23:24:59 i don't see why it would be necessary on a mainline 23:25:19 what does "street running" mean? 23:25:21 I assume they have some solution to this because high platforms are at least supposedly going forward 23:25:28 ais523: tracks down the middle of the street, like a tram, but with freight trains on them 23:25:34 it seems mad but this is actually common in the USA 23:25:44 in Oakland the Amtrak train runs in the street 23:25:50 that's how I initially parsed it but I discarded the meaning because it didn't make sense :-D 23:26:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-23cV1uZvYU&t=1m34s 23:26:25 also (this isn't a user-interface thing) in Rotterdam, the north metro line has trains that can take power from either third rail or overhead wire, because which one exists depends on which part of the line they are in 23:26:33 generally freight trains will go very slow 23:26:36 < 5 mph when street running 23:26:51 as a result, and because freight trains are quite long, they block people from crossing the street for an extended period 23:27:14 b_jonas: there are some trains like that in the UK, I think just because they manufacture them both ways so they can sell them to multiple train companies, it's hardly any extra components 23:27:35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06QcAIBcXfs 23:27:35 ais523: sure, 23:27:36 overhead is much more common in the UK but third rail is moderately common too 23:27:49 b_jonas: yeah 23:27:53 b_jonas: same on Boston's blue line 23:28:05 they switch from third rail to overhead (outbound, inbound the reverse) at Airport station 23:28:19 the reason I heard is that they were worried the third rail would corrode when the track is near the sea 23:28:26 or like it wouldn't be properly insulated from ground or something 23:28:37 on MUNI they just use overhead wires even in the tunnel segments 23:28:41 I think most european trams are the same? 23:29:08 Also speaking of confusing UIs, there's three kinds of door-opening buttons on South Western Railway trains: some are edge-triggered (so if you start holding them down before they're activated, the door won't open), some are level-triggered (so you *should* hold them down from the get-go, for optimal speed) and some are what I'm not sure there's a name for, pulse-triggered, integral-triggered, the kind 23:29:14 of things where (presumably because of hydraulics or pneumatics) you have to hold them long enough, if you just do a short press it makes a noise and maybe opens a cm or two but then closes again. 23:29:16 the Birmingham-to-Wolverhampton trams are overhead lines everywhere, although there aren't many tunnels on that route 23:29:32 Those last ones confuse the non-habitual passengers the most. 23:29:49 fizzie: debounced? low-pass filtered? 23:30:13 Something like that. Though it feels more like it's just physics and not really a feature. 23:30:21 ais523: yes: in Budapest on the M3 metro, I believe each carriage has four contact boots for the third rail on their left, and four on the right, and there are six carriages per train 23:30:38 Commuting by train is all about millisecond optimizations in door-opening strategies. 23:30:48 Well, that and positioning. 23:31:05 this way they can bridge short gaps in the third rail, such as you have at forks in the rail 23:31:38 fizzie: for me it's at least partly about organising my day so that I can go to as many of the places I want to go to on a single ticket 23:32:11 fizzie: I've talked about the open buttons in Budapest, they have some annoying properties too 23:32:13 For my previous commute there was a fixed relationship between the embarkation platform position and the disembarkation one, independent of the train, but from my current starting point you have to factor in the number of cars, because now that affects how it stops. :/ 23:33:04 you also have to allow for different stations having entrances in different places relative to the train 23:33:55 at Birmingham New Street it's much harder because you have to allow for the trains stopping in different places relative to the platform based on where they're going next (often they terminate there), on which platforms are available, and on whether other trains are using the same platform at the same time 23:34:17 Sure. But usually there's time on the starting station to walk around, so it's just all about choosing the spot which drops you off at the exit at where you're going. And I'm always going to the same place. 23:34:29 in both Amsterdam and Rotterdam, trams also have proxy sensors in each door, where you're required to touch your ticket or pass both when you get on and off, even if it's a kind of pass that's good for an unlimited amount of travels within a time limit 23:34:53 Our office lift doors are super-aggressive, and (hearsay) that's because we got a group of Kone engineers to come in and tweak them after everyone complained about the wait times. 23:35:01 Presumably there's a lot of knobs they can tweak. 23:35:07 ais523: yes, that's why many train doors have steps that are close to vertical, as in a ladder 23:36:01 fizzie: knobs? I thought they'd connect a laptop to the control panel and upload a new firmware or something 23:36:10 oh, you mean software knobs 23:36:11 right 23:36:13 Right. 23:36:24 although 23:36:25 I guess 23:36:30 elevators have a pretty long lifetime 23:36:40 so their still exist ones controlled by old electronics 23:37:17 Yes, there are some pretty old elevators around. But this is a new building. 23:37:39 almost anything that contains a timer, there's normally a pretty simple way to adjust the length of time it takes 23:38:04 even with hardwired electronics you'd probably just need to change a capacitor or resistor 23:38:15 and both of those components are available in a huge range of values 23:38:18 It's also got that thing where there's no buttons inside, you enter the destination floor number to call one, and the panel tells you which lift to take. 23:38:24 ok 23:38:27 Which I presume is more efficient at least on paper. 23:38:33 the really old relay based elevator controllers are so cool 23:38:33 what? 23:38:43 fizzie: you enter the destination floor outside? I have never seen that 23:38:48 Yes. 23:38:55 does that exist in real life? 23:38:58 I have heard of that before, but I have not seen it. 23:38:59 And then it'll say a letter from A to E. 23:39:05 Where those are the 5 shafts. 23:39:07 for, like elevators controlled by untrained people? 23:39:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4Dvg7DhCtg 23:39:18 that transport people 23:39:29 b_jonas: there's one of those in the University of Birmingham (although not in the building where I work0 23:39:35 I've seen those! you enter the number and it dynamically decides which elevator will serve which floors 23:39:40 rather than people getting in and then telling it 23:39:42 more efficient 23:39:56 it's for efficiency, it can allow some of the lifts to skip certain floors 23:40:02 I've never seen such a thing 23:40:10 so people going long-distance can get express journeys with few stops 23:40:38 We've got those in two of the London offices. 23:40:47 I've seen cases when there's a set of linked elevators with shared call buttons, and it decides which elevator you shall take, but they only have two call buttons on a storey (one up and one down), so you still enter the destination floor with buttons inside 23:41:00 ais523: about how many floors does that serve? 23:41:11 either 12 or 16, I forget which 23:41:15 it's a tall building 23:41:16 I see 23:41:37 maybe I'm just not paying attention, because I usually prefer to take stairs over elevators 23:41:40 as for your "set of linked elevators" case, I'm surprised that you consider that surprising or atypical, it's by far the most common arrangement when more than one is needed 23:41:41 Ours are 11 and... somewhere around 9, I forget, I don't go to CSG much. 23:42:05 ais523: sure, but it's sort of new too, old elevators didn't use to have those 23:42:13 I'm not considering it surprising or atypical 23:42:26 I'm just saying that's one of what we have, in the few buildings that have more than one elevators 23:42:28 I didn't know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-deck_elevator was a thing until recently. 23:42:40 It's not like you could necessarily tell if the shaft's not visible. 23:43:10 fizzie: wow. so that's like a cross between a traditional elevator and a paternoster 23:43:14 I've in fact been in two of the London ones (Shard and 20 Fenchurch Street aka the Walkie-Talkie) without knowing. 23:43:15 yeah it's clever 23:43:21 2x capacity without more shafts 23:43:25 I would love to try a paternoster 23:43:29 they seem terrifying 23:43:38 kmc: There's a paternoster in the Finnish parliament building. 23:43:44 I don't know if visitors get to use it though. 23:43:46 Maybe not. 23:43:47 the building I'm talking about used to have one but it was removed before I started working here 23:43:50 presumably for safety reasons 23:43:56 fizzie: that would be nice for building E of BME, since many people get in both on floor 0 and on floor 1 23:43:57 I do like the European elevators where there's no internal door 23:44:03 so the shaft going by is exposed 23:44:08 and each floor has a door you open manually 23:44:12 at least they have interlocks -- usually 23:44:20 kmc: paternosters aren't terrifying in reality 23:44:28 not more than normal elevators at least 23:44:50 Right, apparently it's only for people who work in the building. 23:45:15 https://www.flickr.com/photos/finnishparliament/36082539733 23:45:55 do the paternosters stop if someone gets stuck in them? 23:46:01 we have a hospital here with a paternoster. the labels say that only employees are allowed to use it, for liability reasons, but everyone ignores that rules, because the other elevators that patients or visitors can use don't have enough capacity 23:46:12 do they stop at every floor rather than just running continuously? 23:46:41 (that building also has an elevator or two that only employees can use and they use key locks to enforce that) 23:46:46 hmm, it crosses my mind that some sort of "quantized paternoster" could have internal and external doors, it'd be slow (due to stopping at every floor) but have enormous capacity 23:46:47 ais523: they run continuously 23:47:05 presumably they'd have to stop if someone was caught between the cab and floor outside it 23:47:09 and I don't know what happens if soneone gets stuck in between the carriage and the floor 23:47:18 if someone only got stuck in the carriage, it would continue to run 23:47:49 ais523: hmm yes, I guess that could exist, but might only be worth for pretty tall buildings 23:48:18 though it'd be better with only external doors 23:48:39 the problem with internal doors is that they and the mechanism to open and close it would add a lot of weight, which matters when you have lots of carriages 23:49:35 The thing about "you specify the destination floor outside" is that where I live *doesn't* have those, so sometimes I enter the lift here, go in, and just wait. 23:49:55 -!- TriMill has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:50:07 fizzie: um... that sounds like backwards 23:50:12 -!- sleepnap has joined. 23:50:28 "here" was at home, if that makes it less backwards. 23:50:33 sleepnap: wakey, wakey! 23:51:57 hmm 23:52:02 but aren't you used to the ones at home? 23:53:43 Not really. At work there's all these meetings, and the meeting room situation is a disaster, so there's a lot of going up and down around the building. 23:54:04 Here it's more just home -> street and back, and I take the stairs down anyway. 23:54:15 I see 23:55:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:56:36 Kone is a Finnish company, but I don't think everyone realizes that because it's got a short and not ostentatiously Finnish name. 23:57:16 modify the elevator control at your home so it goes to your floor by default when idl ethen 23:57:22 as a workaround 23:58:06 At least it's a reasonably benign issue, because once you realize, the control panel is right there. 23:58:07 it's simpler for me: there's no elevator in the house where I live, nor in the office where I work, nor in the house where my parents live 23:58:32 I just use the stairs instead, and then you don't have to worry about that 23:58:36 The opposite mistake, which is harder to make, has more serious consequences, because once you've entered the work elevators you just end up wherever they decide to take you. 23:59:07 (Although I think there's probably a "please open the doors" button inside?) 23:59:47 Another thing with the work elevators is that if you enter the floor you're already on, the lady that speaks you which one to take sounds very cross. 2019-05-25: 00:00:03 "Already on floor three! Review your floor!" 00:00:08 hehe 00:00:31 can you enter a number with no matching floor? 00:00:53 Yes, because it's got a 0-9 number pad and there are floors up to 11. 00:01:00 So it's possible to enter 12-19. 00:01:01 why is there even speech? 00:01:05 -!- sleepnap has left. 00:01:31 (For 2-9 and 9, it auto-terminates at the first digit. But for 1 it waits a little for a next digit.) 00:01:53 I think it just says something like "floor does not exist" or "invalid floor" if you do though. 00:02:14 so... there's one less buttons than floors? 00:02:19 one fewer buttons than floors 00:02:28 or two fewer? 00:02:32 is there a floor 0? 00:02:39 Yes, that's the ground floor here. 00:02:50 ok, so two fewer buttons 00:02:55 There's also some basement floors, which I'm actually not sure how you input. Maybe there's a minus sign button? 00:03:24 But they could've had the same amount of buttons as floors, I'm sure it's just a standardized part. 00:04:01 Also, there's a "group" button, which earlier you could use to say "we're 10 people and we're all going to floor 8", by typing in , 1, 0, wait, 8. 00:04:13 But they disabled the group button, rumour has it due to abuse. 00:04:15 I think maybe it should always require the same number of digits, or require to push enter afterward, is better than just trying to guess if you finish or not 00:04:29 I think that too. 00:05:18 (It would also be better for the group function, You can push 1 0 8 instead of 1 0 wait 8) 00:06:58 fizzie: I think most control panels for lifts consolidate multiple requests to go to the same floor, which would prevent that sort of abuse but also mean that specifying group size would be pointless 00:07:14 ais523: I think I have a solution. 00:07:34 Yes, you should not need a group size usually, I find it works without 00:09:12 ais523: I think the intent of the group thing was that the scheduler could know a priori you will need that amount of empty space, and can't pick up more than so many passengers along the way. 00:09:14 ais523: each philosopher shall have a mutex and a condvar. when a philosopher wants to eat, they lock their own mutex, they non-blockingly try to take a combination of two spoons, retries for all possible combination of two spoons they can reach. 00:10:32 if they succeed taking the spoons, then they unlock their own mutex. if they fail, then they wait on their own condvar unlocking the mutex. right after a philosopher puts a spoon down, they post the condvar of every other philosopher who can reach that spoon. 00:10:45 There seems to also be some odd/even floor bias in the current algorithm. 00:11:10 in addition to this, you also need a livelock-avoiding strategy, sort of like for the ordinary dining philosophers. 00:11:36 Unfortunately for some reason they have not seen fit to put the elevator scheduler in our source control system so that people could send patches. 00:12:02 b_jonas: the mutex is to prevent them being told that the spoons are now available until they've started their wait? 00:12:27 ais523: yes 00:12:29 I think that works if you have an atomic unlock-mutex-and-wait-on-condvar instruction 00:12:40 ais523: you always have that for a condvar 00:12:58 fizzie: they probably don't own it 00:12:59 there's not much sense to have a condvar without that, except if you only have cooperative threads without a scheduler or parallelism 00:13:49 fizzie: can you at least get a copy of the installed binary? 00:13:50 I think the main downside of this solution, although it's probably unavoidable, is that each philosopher has to be aware of which other philosophers might want the same spoons 00:14:24 I think you can have, the numbers 0 to 9, and also , , , , and , and then is good. (You can push for the basement.) (And on outside, add a car call button.) 00:14:25 ais523: yeah... that could be written on the spoons of course 00:14:28 They could ask the lift company to provide an API, at least. Though maybe there's some regulation in the industry? 00:15:18 We're building our own building next door, maybe it can have a proper Google lift. 00:15:19 fizzie: but if you could submit new versions, who would verify those? 00:16:08 who would verify that the control isn't malicious, such as making your boss get stuck in the elevator unless he agrees to give you a raise, or making the elevator come slowly when your boss calls it unless he gives you a raise? 00:16:26 Unless you are going to build your own lift, nobody will verify it, I think. 00:16:54 fizzie: could you just put a wrapper over the buttons it has, so that it is always called to only one stop, thus directly control all its movements? 00:17:09 (And then they will not use the code, but if you build your own then you can use it.) 00:17:13 always called to only one floor I mean 00:17:55 That might be a little hard to do effectively, since it's just one control panel but 5 lifts. 00:18:07 oh... right 00:18:10 yeah, that'd be tricky 00:19:02 Possibly it would be possible to enter the right sequence of inputs for any desired control outcome. 00:19:15 We'll put DeepMind on it. 00:19:26 ouch 00:20:28 They'll build a ML model that nobody understands, but which gets people to their destinations 40% faster. 00:20:42 although that would make it more easy to write control code that's plasibly deniably malicious 00:21:08 hehe 00:21:10 the only use for strong AI here would likely be in predicting which floors people will need when they haven't even arrived at the control panel yet 00:21:26 once you have the control panel inputs, you can likely just brute-force an optimal solution, the search space can't be that large 00:21:40 my thermometer says that the max outdoor temperature it has seen since the last reset is 64 °C 00:22:07 I find that hard to believe 00:22:45 ais523: oh yeah, HHGG has such elevators 00:22:54 prescient ones 00:24:15 oh and while we're at books 00:24:29 the lifts at my local train station appear to have some limited level of prescience based in; in particular, they seem to do uncommanded moves when a train is imminently about to arrive at the station 00:24:42 fizzie: Michael Ende describes a scene where a person forgets to get out of an elevator because they're reading an interesting book 00:24:49 so that's a different way how that can happen 00:26:28 ais523: I think in a place like Google, you could also have the software allow people to enter the floor number on their mobile phone, before they reach the control panel 00:27:03 and then fizzie would have that automated from people's calendars, so that when you go to the elevator, it assumes you're going to the floor where your next meeting is scheduled to 00:29:34 now I'm imagining putting desks and computers /inside/ the elevators so that people can work as they're going to meetings 00:29:48 and just automatically end up in the right place at the right time 00:29:53 I know it doesn't work logistically, though 00:30:28 How big is in the inside of the elevator? 00:31:06 ais523: or people sitting in cubicles that run on wheels that run on rails, and whenever a group people have to meet, their cubicles move close to each other 00:32:37 zzo38: usually between 4 to 18 square meters, usually smaller, larger if it's used to transport cargo or bed-ridden patients 00:32:37 apparently some warehouses nowadays have robots that move the shelves to the people who put items on or take items off; the robots aren't accurate at manipulating items on the shelves, but moving the entire structure is much easier, and it can be parallelised so it's faster than having the workers move to the shelves 00:33:04 heh 00:34:17 how would my hon. and learned friend fungot design elevators? 00:34:17 b_jonas: mr president, in this context, there are important issues at the same time they turned a blind eye to crimes committed on a daily basis means that they have when they board an aircraft and go from airports surrounded by the two committees and this is my third point is to persuade those responsible for these subjective descriptions and to ask them to amend it again during this plenary. 00:34:23 I read (/watched) something about a dock, which has a mixture of human-controlled mobile cranes for the slightly more complicated business, and fully autonomous ones that do the boring part of reshuffling containers in the yard. 00:35:21 I think they mentioned they had to program in a slowly cycling offset, because otherwise the robotic cranes were too accurate, always dropping the containers at exactly the same position, so the ground paving at the container corners/edges was wearing off much faster. 00:35:23 I should try to use python 00:35:36 (Previously there was always enough slop to spread the impact.) 00:35:43 hehe 00:36:20 this sounds believable 00:38:33 If you have your own NNTP server, will you use the SUBSCRIBE command in my NNTP server if I implement it to send copies to your server too (when it is scheduled to do so)? 00:42:03 ais523: wait, for what I said to work, if a philosopher locks a spoon but fails to lock the second spoon to it so unlocks the first spoon, then too they have to post the condvar of the other philosophers of that spoon 00:42:30 no wait 00:42:35 maybe the whole thing doesn't work 00:43:05 when there's exactly one spoon free, how do the two philosophers avoid livelocking by alternatingly taking it in rapid succession? 00:43:16 you'd need an atomic way to take two locks at once 00:43:29 I mean obviously there can't be exactly one spoon free 00:43:34 but something similar could happen 00:43:47 there can locally be exactly one spoon free 00:43:51 even if globally there are more 00:44:15 yep 00:44:16 that's not really a livelock, it's a failure mode that ends up degenerating to polling, which is a bit different 00:44:40 hmm 00:44:46 well, this is an interesting problem 00:45:02 I think there is probably a solution without a global lock 00:45:22 at least for large enough and sparse enough graphs; for just a dodecahedron it might not be worth 00:45:26 Is there a way to take two locks at once? 00:46:21 b_jonas: I'm interested in a case that's generalized in several directions and is probably unsolvable, this was a subproblem of that that's interesting in its own right and will probably need solving first 00:46:30 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:46:39 LLVM has a "atomicrmw" which can make some kind of atomic operations; would it do? 00:47:12 zzo38: I've seen languages with a primitive for taking two locks at once 00:47:27 a single atomicrmw can't do that, a double atomicrmw could but I don't know if LLVM has those 00:47:40 (the hardware instruction backing it would be double-compare-and-swap which some CPUs have but most don't) 00:47:41 I think it might not, since you can't compare at the same time as the other operation 00:48:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:51:39 As far as I can tell, LLVM does not have a double atomicrmw. It does have cmpxchg, though. 00:51:43 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:56:20 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:31:32 I think into the bit manipulation extension for RISC-V they should add the MOR operation from MMIX and the Muxcomp operation from the esolang wiki. 01:33:01 Do you like MXOR? 01:34:01 MXOR could also do maybe, in addition to MOR 01:35:18 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 01:39:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:39:17 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 01:39:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:39:21 MXOR = PCLMULQDQ, right? 01:40:14 I don't know what PCLMULQDQ means 01:40:59 packed carry-less multiplication (quad word to double quad word) 01:47:26 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 01:54:35 idea 01:56:02 @metar ENVA 01:56:03 ENVA 250150Z 34006KT 9999 SCT024 BKN038 08/04 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 32008KT 01:56:14 humid 01:56:34 use binary coded decimal as a basis for a character encoding 01:57:02 where two decimal digits are encoded per byte as in BCD 01:57:35 but then any pattern that is invalid is used for other characters 01:58:58 so basically that would be in hex, [0-F][A-F] and [A-F][0-9], or 6*16+6*10 01:59:24 int-e: Hmm, is it? 01:59:41 156 bit pattern are invalid in BCD 02:00:13 oh wait I could have just subtracted 100 from 256 02:00:25 Some patterns might be used in case there is only one digit in one cell, maybe 02:01:00 hmm, how did BCD handle that normally? 02:03:08 I think different implementations has done a few different things 02:04:47 Wikipedia says that telephone BCD uses a bit pattern 1 1 1 1 for padding 02:10:11 `? linear logic 02:10:14 linear logic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:43:00 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:57:30 -!- adu has joined. 03:21:40 int-e: no 03:47:58 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:48:05 -!- sprock1em has joined. 03:52:07 Would you be able to review my sqlnetnews code to see if anything you think is wrong with it? 04:36:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62565&oldid=62554 * A * (+110) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 05:19:18 [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62566&oldid=58334 * A * (+417) I believe that there are a shorter programs. 05:22:13 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 05:22:49 -!- rickbutton has joined. 05:24:16 [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62567&oldid=62566 * A * (+152) Bootstrap 05:25:09 [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62568&oldid=62567 * A * (+29) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ 05:26:21 [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62569&oldid=62568 * A * (-5) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ 05:31:24 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 05:34:29 [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62570&oldid=62314 * A * (+35) I almost forgot; bitch can simulate a UTM. 05:37:47 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62571&oldid=62565 * A * (+402) To make bootstrapping possible, you have to compile bitch first. 05:38:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62572&oldid=62571 * A * (+1) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 05:41:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62573&oldid=62572 * A * (+193) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular problems */ 05:44:51 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62574&oldid=62573 * A * (+228) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 05:48:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62575&oldid=62574 * A * (+163) I still don't know the answer. 05:50:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62576&oldid=62575 * A * (+59) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 05:55:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62577&oldid=62576 * A * (-4) Too much indentation 06:03:08 [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62578&oldid=62558 * A * (-843) 06:04:05 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62579&oldid=62530 * A * (+841) 06:04:25 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62580&oldid=62579 * A * (+13) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */ 06:14:36 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62581&oldid=62580 * A * (+302) 06:16:19 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62582&oldid=62581 * A * (-209) 06:22:20 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62583&oldid=62582 * A * (+57) 06:27:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:29:12 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62584&oldid=62583 * A * (+1507) Add another log with my username in it 06:47:45 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62585&oldid=62584 * A * (+756) 07:05:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:17:04 Wikipedia mentions such thing as synonym, homonym, heteronym, etc, but what is it called if a word has the same spelling and meaning and pronounce but the etymology is different? 07:17:55 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62586&oldid=62585 * A * (-815) 07:18:15 They even mention what it is called if the capitalization is different, too 07:21:15 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62587&oldid=62586 * A * (+649) 08:37:26 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:38:14 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62588&oldid=62577 * Salpynx * (+169) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ D'oh, oh dear.... 08:49:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:06:28 wait what? 09:06:46 http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced. 09:06:51 I totally missed this because of the vacation 09:06:55 has this been listed? let me check the logs 09:07:16 `ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced. 09:07:17 ioccclist http://www.ioccc.org/2019/whowon.html 2019-05-11 The winners of the 26th IOCCC have been announced.: b_jonas 09:08:56 wow, these sound interesting 09:10:03 it doesn't look like it's even been mentioned on the channel, wtf 09:10:24 there's no "best of show" for some reason 09:19:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:20:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:06:10 also, they say that "We plan to publish source and annotations close to June 2nd." 10:08:10 `? defenestration 10:08:11 `? decapitation 10:08:12 Defenestration is the traditional Czech system for voting out government officials. 10:08:13 decapitation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:08:25 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:08:25 Decapitation is the traditional French system for voting out government officials. 10:10:54 `? spoiler 10:10:55 spoiler? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:10:56 `? spoil 10:10:57 spoil? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:11:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:13:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:21:04 `? womb 10:21:05 womb? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:31:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:35:16 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62589&oldid=62588 * Salpynx * (+980) /* Incapability of bitch implementing Popular blah */ 10:41:43 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:47:25 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 10:47:50 I wonder, what is the lowest natural number such that no pokemon has exactly that many eyes 10:51:02 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:19:05 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:23:02 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:24:17 hmm, http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/simple/simple.html is a language that might not be esoteric, but is named of a joke esoteric language 11:31:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:32:16 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 11:51:15 [[Finite looping automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62590&oldid=62557 * Salpynx * (+74) Remove erroneous claims 11:57:11 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62591&oldid=62590 * A * (+52) Modify misleading comment. 11:57:24 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62592&oldid=62591 * A * (-28) /* Example programs */ 11:57:59 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62593&oldid=62592 * A * (+0) 12:00:21 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62594&oldid=62593 * A * (+212) 12:00:35 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62595&oldid=62594 * A * (+0) 12:03:37 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62596&oldid=62589 * A * (-434) Nobody answered; I will just leave that out. This is acceptible, right? 12:05:37 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62597&oldid=62595 * A * (+30) /* Looping counter */ 12:06:32 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62598&oldid=62597 * A * (-29) 12:09:28 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62599&oldid=62598 * A * (+7) /* Syntax */ 12:09:41 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62600&oldid=62599 * A * (+1) /* Syntax */ 12:10:11 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:10:22 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62601&oldid=62600 * A * (+5) /* Infinite loop */ 12:11:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62602&oldid=62596 * A * (+62) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 12:14:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62603&oldid=62602 * A * (+170) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 12:17:06 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62604&oldid=62603 * A * (+83) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 12:17:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62605&oldid=62604 * A * (+0) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ 12:21:47 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62606&oldid=62605 * A * (-606) int-e typed i instead of l. 12:26:09 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62607&oldid=62606 * A * (-2867) 12:33:44 whoa, this language has esoteric semantics 12:37:31 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62608&oldid=62587 * A * (+206) 12:47:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62609&oldid=62607 * Int-e * (+0) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ wtf, "I" is a pronoun! 12:47:57 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62610&oldid=62608 * A * (-842) /* Please do not create alternate accounts to make a point */ 12:49:07 . o O ( Just when I thought A was becoming more reasonable over time. ) 12:59:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62611&oldid=62609 * Int-e * (+93) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ add a clarification so that the discussion that A deleted (please don't do that, especially when other people were involved!) was not in vain. 13:02:10 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62612&oldid=62601 * A * (+37) /* Syntax */ 13:10:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:18:51 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:25:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 13:31:22 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:15:32 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:30:22 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62613&oldid=62578 * Salpynx * (+757) 14:39:05 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:16:20 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:23:36 [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62614&oldid=62613 * A * (-757) Great, I will use this message to make my user page ridiculous. 15:23:47 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62615&oldid=62610 * A * (+756) 15:32:38 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:33:09 -!- b_jonas has joined. 15:38:17 So A's reading the IRC logs. Great. 15:40:09 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 15:40:09 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:42:31 int-e: we’re famous, our names are forever on A’s page! Oh well, not forever, just until the next blanking, what a shame 15:42:37 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 15:54:48 -!- b_jonas has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:55:26 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:56:18 -!- b_jonas_ has joined. 16:00:31 -!- sftp has joined. 16:20:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:20:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:27:21 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:15:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:16:20 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:33:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:39:31 Why does the Telus television try to keep track of the current playback state in the remote control? 17:40:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:05:06 [[Talk:Volatile]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62616 * TuxCrafting * (+712) Created page with "== Possibly Turing-complete? == There is a way to push 1, ~:/ (well, a non-deterministic way, but the chance for it to fail is very low in practice), and so ther..." 18:14:18 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:17:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:20:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:30:01 Is there a creature (presumably an artifact creature) that has reverse wither, that is, damage dealt to it acts as wither damage, or perhaps damage dealt to it removes that many +1/+1 counters from it? 18:30:05 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas. 18:31:57 sort of 18:32:03 `card-by-name sekki, seasons 18:32:05 Sekki, Seasons' Guide \ 5GGG \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 0/0 \ Sekki, Seasons' Guide enters the battlefield with eight +1/+1 counters on it. \ If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and create that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature tokens. \ Sacrifice eight Spirits: Return Sekki from your graveyard to the battlefield. \ SOK-R 18:32:12 no wait 18:32:19 that's like a hydra too, adding +1/+1 counters 18:32:35 found it 18:32:40 it's Ugin's Conjurant 18:48:28 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:49:10 wtf 18:49:33 why is the text box of Goatnap slanted? 18:51:17 ah it's not 18:51:24 it's just a scanning error in scryfall 18:53:08 or not, who knows 19:05:44 If I write a NNTP client software, what do you suggest I will call it? 19:07:01 b_jonas: To your question about how many eyes a pokemon has, my brother suggested five but is unsure. 19:17:40 I see 19:21:08 One idea of Magic: the Gathering card: {?} Enchantment - Aura ;; Enchant damageable ;; At the beginning of each upkeep, ~ deals 1 damage to enchanted damageable. ;; Lifelink 19:32:52 zzo38: what's a damageable 19:33:40 also, they're reprinting Snow-covered Plains, though it's not clear to me in what number of copies 19:35:18 A damageable is a player, planeswalker, or creature, just as though instead of "any target" it says "target damageable" (I don't like "any target", and also, "damageable" is no longer limited to "target"; it means the same thing) 19:35:46 I see 19:36:25 well, that looks interesting, because it could be blue or black 19:36:28 wait 19:36:34 it has lifelink? then I'm not sure it can be blue 19:36:37 drat 19:36:49 it would be more interesting if it could somehow be done in blue 19:37:16 well, it could work well in black 19:38:19 It could be altered as needed, I suppose 19:46:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:09:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:07 -!- mniip has quit (Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.). 20:41:40 -!- mniip has joined. 20:43:41 `? 20:43:42 ​ ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:43:46 `wisdom 20:43:46 ​10//10 = 10 in every base. 20:43:47 `quote 20:43:47 566) (Of Minecraft:) So basically I didn't understand what it was at all, I thought maybe you were meant to be like a worm and just sort of wriggle about underground. 20:44:04 `wisdom 20:44:06 ​madness//madness lies thataway. 20:44:09 `quote 20:44:10 194) oerjan: also actually A(4, 4) is larger than any other integer, i learned this the other day when i was reading about this algo, it had complexity O(n a^-1(n)) = O(n a^-1(4)) 20:44:11 `recipe 20:44:11 ​ via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CHICKEN BEANS MUFFINS \ Categories: Salads, Chicken, Sauces \ Yield: 8 Servings \ \ 1 tb Fresh lemon juice \ 1/4 ts Pepper, or dough \ 1/4 ts Salt \ 2 ea Garlic cloves, peeled, cooked, thinly \ -- sliced \ 1 c Flour \ 1/2 c Margarine; melted \ Beer -- chopped \ Pepper, seeded and \ -- chopped \ \ Serve with whipped cream ends of honey. Nutrition of each, peaches \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Reci 21:09:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:31:41 Do you ave a suggestion of a name of a NNTP client software? (I can provide details if requested) 21:32:55 zzo38: "Nûwsreader", because it's a character name in http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1765.html ? 21:33:08 or is that too much of an in-joke? 21:34:31 or Bystander, who is the character in the bobadventures webcomic who reads newspaper the most often -- either him or Bob himself, I'm not sure 21:35:34 or Bob because he's the one who sells the newspapers to readers, analogously to how your software gives the news to its users -- except that's no good, there's already a software called Microsoft Bob 21:36:20 It isn't too much of an in-joke, but contains non-ASCII characters and may be too similar to "newsreader" 21:43:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:45:55 -!- Illfit_Rorq has joined. 21:46:44 -!- Illfit_Rorq has quit (Client Quit). 21:47:31 Maybe "bystand" will do; no program by that name can be found in any package on my computer 21:47:49 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:04:43 `? sound 22:04:44 sound? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:07:30 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 22:11:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:11:02 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 22:12:54 `? syrup 22:12:55 syrup? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:12:56 `? stirrup 22:12:57 stirrup? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:29:52 `? dog 22:29:53 dog? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:32:42 `? light 22:32:43 light? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:42:12 `? kmc 22:42:13 kmc did not run the International Devious Code Contest of 2013. 22:54:49 -!- unlimiter has joined. 22:55:46 -!- unlimiter has quit (Client Quit). 23:31:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:43:52 [[User:Timtomtoaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62617&oldid=60181 * Orangeyy * (+0) 23:45:21 What is the correct way to receive a line from a socket? Should MSG_PEEK be used? 23:58:51 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 2019-05-26: 00:02:14 -!- moony has changed nick to pushpoppeekbop. 01:08:03 -!- sprock1em has quit (Quit: brb). 01:09:18 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:35:28 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 01:37:23 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62618&oldid=62611 * A * (+725) Paste the discussion here due to "request". 01:38:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62619&oldid=62618 * A * (-222) Less wordier discussions 01:39:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:40:37 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62620&oldid=62615 * A * (+22) 01:45:26 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62621&oldid=62620 * A * (+59) 01:45:50 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62622&oldid=62621 * A * (-78) /* Julie Andrews */ 01:50:43 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62623&oldid=62622 * A * (+578) Add another negative comment 01:52:05 Using MSG_PEEK to find out where the line ends, and then receiving it again this time with MSG_WAITALL, seems to work fine as far as I can tell so far. 01:52:34 -!- mniip has quit (Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.). 01:54:31 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62624&oldid=62623 * A * (+616) Break my rule to add positive comments 02:03:34 -!- mniip has joined. 02:21:29 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62625&oldid=62624 * A * (+163) 02:22:12 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62626&oldid=62625 * A * (-719) Make the contest fairer 02:22:19 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62627&oldid=62626 * A * (-678) /* Julie Andrews */ 02:22:40 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62628&oldid=62627 * A * (-6) 02:25:04 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62629&oldid=61480 * A * (+153) 02:25:33 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62630&oldid=62629 * A * (+1) /* Computational Class */ 02:26:27 zzo38: I think most programs would buffer and separately take lines from that buffer 02:26:37 but your solution seems basically fine too 02:27:08 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62631&oldid=62630 * A * (+28) /* Java implementation */ 02:28:50 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62632&oldid=62631 * A * (+17) /* Computational Class */ 02:39:01 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62633&oldid=62628 * A * (+170) Add description 02:43:48 fungot: are you famous? 02:43:48 int-e: mr president, i would remind us all of what we have to deplore and condemn it at every election. the responsibility for not vetoing it. that is why mr pimenta invited me to do but which they feel " will create substantial pressure on social security for migrant workers. seventh: barriers to the internal market was a relatively easy measure to implement the internal market. 02:48:14 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62634&oldid=62633 * A * (-23) 02:49:17 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62635&oldid=62634 * A * (+39) 02:51:50 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62636&oldid=62635 * A * (+43) 02:52:12 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62637&oldid=62636 * A * (-71) 03:21:25 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62638&oldid=62632 * A * (+76) 03:22:11 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62639&oldid=62638 * A * (+21) 03:22:37 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62640&oldid=62639 * A * (+20) Specify 03:23:26 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62641&oldid=62640 * A * (-16) No, otherwise it will not compile to P''. 03:25:25 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62642&oldid=62616 * A * (+286) 03:25:45 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62643&oldid=62642 * A * (+1) I made a mess. 03:47:40 [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62644&oldid=59661 * Salpynx * (+130) /* Implementations */ add Clojure interpreter on github 03:48:31 -!- FreeFull has quit. 04:02:51 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62645&oldid=62637 * A * (-1) 04:03:42 [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62646&oldid=62644 * Salpynx * (+339) add "see also" and good blog post link 04:24:45 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62647&oldid=62643 * TuxCrafting * (+227) 04:29:35 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62648&oldid=62647 * TuxCrafting * (+261) 04:31:23 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62649&oldid=62641 * TuxCrafting * (-47) 04:42:12 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62650&oldid=62645 * A * (-400) 04:44:04 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62651&oldid=62648 * A * (+173) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 04:44:58 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62652&oldid=62649 * A * (-10) Partial undo revision 62649 by [[Special:Contributions/TuxCrafting|TuxCrafting]] ([[User talk:TuxCrafting|talk]]) 04:45:35 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62653&oldid=62651 * A * (+0) 04:47:54 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62654&oldid=62653 * A * (+174) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 04:53:14 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62655&oldid=62654 * TuxCrafting * (+162) 04:58:44 [[Eodermdrome]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62656&oldid=62646 * Salpynx * (+143) /* Example programs */ Add link to my +-= 'interpreter' / decimal counter, written in Eodermdrome 05:03:06 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62657&oldid=62655 * TuxCrafting * (+317) 05:04:28 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 05:04:50 -!- Frater_EST has left. 05:22:53 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62658&oldid=62657 * A * (+151) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 05:25:26 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62659&oldid=62658 * A * (+148) I got the algorithm wrong 05:26:06 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62660&oldid=62659 * A * (+11) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 05:26:51 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62661&oldid=62660 * A * (+6) 05:27:18 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62662&oldid=62661 * A * (-2) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 05:31:21 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62663&oldid=62662 * TuxCrafting * (+227) 05:35:35 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62664&oldid=62663 * TuxCrafting * (+244) 05:37:56 [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62665&oldid=62570 * A * (-35) Undo revision 62570 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): bitch cannot interpret the UTM, though. 05:38:36 [[Finite looping automaton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62666&oldid=62612 * TuxCrafting * (+3) grammar fix 05:42:28 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62667&oldid=62652 * A * (+96) /* Number tricks */ 05:42:56 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62668&oldid=62667 * A * (+6) /* Computational Class */ 05:43:33 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62669&oldid=62668 * A * (+5) /* Number tricks */ 05:44:13 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62670&oldid=62669 * A * (+20) /* Syntax */ 05:44:46 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62671&oldid=62670 * A * (-1) 05:49:28 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62672&oldid=62664 * A * (+179) /* Provided interpreter */ 05:50:44 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62673&oldid=62671 * A * (+78) Inspired by Keg 06:04:02 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62674&oldid=62673 * A * (+30) /* Examples */ 06:07:08 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62675&oldid=62672 * A * (+135) /* Possibly Turing-complete? */ 06:09:04 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62676&oldid=62674 * A * (-1) 06:10:26 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62677&oldid=62676 * A * (+6) /* Number tricks */ 06:13:51 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62678&oldid=62677 * A * (+2) The Java implementation does not count; it does not conform the spec 06:29:43 `qutoe 06:29:44 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: qutoe: not found 06:29:45 `quote 06:29:46 91) like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: that's great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 06:29:55 `quote 06:29:56 740) STOP CAPITALIZING It's making me feel weird the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer 06:30:00 `quote 06:30:02 539) did you know: gravity was inspired by apples 06:30:06 `quote 06:30:08 1087) I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD. 06:30:12 `quote 06:30:14 1076) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness 06:30:17 `quote 06:30:18 1136) OKAY 06:30:20 `quote 06:30:21 1279) Why does my computer support only one colormap? because it's meta-racist 06:30:25 `quote 06:30:26 1301) No, I'm not alive, stop imagining I'm alive. 06:30:28 `quote 06:30:29 639) pikhq: And of course Rick Perry, saying that there's something wrong with a country where gays can serve in the military but we don't elect a douchebag as president. 06:30:33 `quote 06:30:34 312) Felix's home page and Falcon's home page are actually the same page 06:37:45 `quote 06:37:45 829) Bike: Your client colours people? it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life 06:44:22 `quote 06:44:22 87) alise: why internet is like wtf 06:53:58 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62679&oldid=62534 * A * (-6) /* Interpreter */ 06:54:28 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62680&oldid=62679 * A * (+0) /* Interpreter */ 06:56:19 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62681&oldid=62680 * A * (-7) /* Interpreter */ 07:08:28 `quote 07:08:28 556) "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" 07:08:31 `quote 07:08:32 758) I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins. 07:08:34 `quote 07:08:35 590) Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge 07:08:38 `quote 07:08:38 209) ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least. 07:08:58 `quote 07:08:59 1206) Syntax highlighting is: sender in cyan, command in bright white, parameters in normal white, long parameters in bright blue (except for the preceding colon) wait, you read IRC raw? It isn't quite raw; it is in colors. 07:09:12 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62682&oldid=62681 * A * (+124) /* Interpreter */ 07:09:21 `quote 07:09:22 707) Free as in unregistered, not free as in lunch or speech. 07:09:26 `quote 07:09:27 704) I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time 07:09:32 `quote 07:09:33 923) but when she saw him fnord and fnord. and then there's the fnord, as well as fnord reading sauce with fish, or fnord, that alice quite fnord for it hadn't spoken before. 07:09:36 `quote 07:09:37 617) also who it a tome, a small one 07:10:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:10:53 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62683&oldid=62682 * A * (-73) /* Interpreter */ 07:11:10 the other day someone said "free as in use-after" 07:14:07 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62684&oldid=62683 * A * (+66) /* Interpreter */ 07:16:00 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62685&oldid=62684 * A * (-73) /* Interpreter */ 07:16:07 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:16:13 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:18:20 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62686&oldid=62685 * A * (-1) Deleted an extra character 07:33:12 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:40:53 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62687&oldid=62686 * A * (+84) /* Interpreter */ 07:49:45 [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62688&oldid=62687 * A * (-42) /* Interpreter */ 07:55:22 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62689&oldid=62678 * JonoCode9374 * (+862) Added a python interpreter 07:56:15 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62690&oldid=62689 * A * (+25) 08:01:19 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62691&oldid=62690 * A * (-8) A newline is fine. 08:14:00 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62692&oldid=62675 * JonoCode9374 * (+317) /* Output Methods */ new section 08:15:19 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62693&oldid=62691 * JonoCode9374 * (+198) /* Examples */ -> Print "Hi" 08:30:18 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62694&oldid=62693 * A * (+80) /* Syntax */ 08:36:23 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62695&oldid=62694 * A * (+47) Python interpreter counts 08:36:38 [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62696&oldid=62665 * JonoCode9374 * (+407) Added Keg as an implementing language 08:36:47 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:39:12 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62697&oldid=62692 * A * (+197) /* Output Methods */ 08:39:24 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62698&oldid=62697 * A * (+1) /* Output Methods */ 08:45:46 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62699&oldid=62698 * TuxCrafting * (+1130) 08:46:30 ``` recipe; starwars 5 08:46:31 ​ 1 c Sugar \ 1/4 c Shredded coconut \ 1/4 ts Cumin seeds \ \ Preheat oven to 350. In a medium bowl, combine milk, the sugar, vanilla and seasoned \ flour and water and then cornstarch. add tomatoes, oregano, and \ nutmeg; serve. \ \ MMMMM \ \ MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.05 \ \ Title: CHINESE MEAT OF 2 OR. SALAD \ Categories: Chinese, Candies, Fat \ Yield: 1 Servings \ \ Unsweetened chocolate canned \ 1 Medium potatoes \ 08:46:36 `starwars 5 08:46:36 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62700&oldid=62699 * TuxCrafting * (+7) 08:46:36 R2-D2 \ Admiral Crix Madine \ Lor San Tekka \ Rose Tico \ Jyn Erso 08:47:57 Has someone suggested to A to make more substantial edits rather than dozens and dozens of tiny ones? 08:48:47 `? level 08:48:48 level? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 08:48:51 hmm 08:48:59 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62701&oldid=62695 * A * (+2697) /* Display the word "Hi" */ 08:50:40 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62702&oldid=62701 * A * (+27) /* Hello, world! program */ 08:50:43 shachaf: they cite this on their user page: 00:21:49 oerjan: A's microedits are annoying. and sometimes disruptive... 08:51:34 Hmm. 08:51:48 That userpage seems pretty trolly. 08:52:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:52:07 Yeah it reminds me of how hard it was to be 13 years of age. 08:52:37 With all the world against me ;-) 08:53:24 I was that age in the past and I don't believe I did that kind of thing. 08:54:00 Well, I didn't have Internet access at that age. 08:54:11 int-e: and how hard it may be to be less than 13 years of age _now_, when all online services ban you from using it just because of your age. imagine living in an age when everything happens on the internet, but not being allowed to use it. you can't even register an email address, or an account practically required to use the operating system of your phone. 08:54:20 One thing I remember is being quite annoyed when people treated me differently for being that age. For example by making excuses for me, or being impressed by unimpressive things. 08:54:30 I'm also being facetious to some extend. At least I'd like to believe that I am. 08:54:32 [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62703&oldid=62696 * A * (+453) Hey! 08:54:48 extent? 08:54:53 spelling is hard. 08:55:59 we didn't have any of that back when I was 13 years of age. heck, when I was aged 16, the rules that people under age of 18 can't buy tobacco or alcoholic drinks in shops were pretty new and nobody took them seriously yet. I could drink, and I could have smoked, and nobody would find 18 years to be the magical threshold. 08:56:30 In retrospect maybe I should've taken advantage of people being impressed by unimpressive things and being unreasonably helpful. 08:56:34 mind you, even now people under 18 years of age can drink and smoke, they just aren't allowed to buy alcohol or tobacco anywhere, and that's more or less enforced. 08:57:13 The world is a cold uncaring place, y'know, you gotta get every advantage you can. 08:57:46 shachaf: you may be right. otoh there's a lot of value in being taken seriously, as a confidence boost. 08:57:49 shachaf: you don't realize how cold uncaring it is while you're a child if you're in a good family and reasonable school 08:58:34 (that remark was about taking advantage of the generosity of strangers) 08:59:29 I'm probably putting too cynical a spin on it. 09:00:00 And heck, it can be fun to teach somebody who's visibly learning and improving. 09:00:09 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 09:00:40 I agree. 09:00:42 [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62704&oldid=62703 * A * (-453) You should call it "bitch", despite the fact that it is insulting... it is the language name. 09:03:15 b_jonas: it's funny but I don't see what smoking and drinking have to do with being an adult, except legally. 09:03:16 int-e: sure, that's why we're all on irc 09:03:36 we come here to either learn something, or teach other people something back to give back all the help we've got on irc 09:03:38 I would certainly prefer respect over condescension or pity or whatever. 09:04:03 and if we're lucky, we also run into a good community 09:04:06 shachaf: . o O ( I also thought that when I was your age. ) 09:04:07 ;-) 09:04:25 At my age I get neither! 09:04:29 <-- half troll. 09:04:46 int-e: you're older than shachaf? 09:05:18 Yeah. 09:05:33 whoa, int-e knows when I was born? 09:05:40 That's supposed to be confidential information. 09:05:47 Though I haven't done a good job of keeping it that way. 09:05:50 shachaf: no, probably only a bound 09:05:52 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62705&oldid=62700 * TuxCrafting * (+4) what is english 09:06:08 Well, time is continuous, you can only ever measure it with a bound. 09:06:24 iirc you can find out how old I am from the channel logs 09:06:44 Hmm maybe I'm not 100% sure. :) 09:07:03 Time for the millionaire protocol. 09:07:09 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:08:10 -!- tromp has joined. 09:08:40 By the way, someone told me a protocol which was significantly simpler than the standard socialist millionaire protocol, and claimed it solved the problem of verifying that two people were thinking of the same number. 09:09:15 Let's say I was born before 1980 :) that should be good enough for this. 09:09:16 how does it work 09:10:29 You can do something analogous to DH? 09:10:39 It did a thing analogous to DH, yep. 09:10:49 as in diffie-hellman? 09:10:55 yes 09:11:09 I can't remember what it was called. 09:11:14 analogous? 09:11:33 `witchcraft 09:11:34 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: witchcraft: not found 09:12:06 I imagine something like this: Agree on a random modulus modulo m a large (safe) prime p, compute m^H(x) mod p where x is your number and H is a hash function, compare to m^H(y), where y is the other party's number. 09:12:39 Repeat with different hashes if you are unhappy with accidental matches. 09:12:46 I don't understand how some of these crazy protocols can work 09:13:04 (without the hash, you could afterwards check whether ax = by for given integers a and b) 09:13:40 [[Talk:Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62706&oldid=62705 * A * (+2) Group the operators 09:13:48 int-e: um, how does that exclude that the other party tries with all likely values of x and compares the result you tell? 09:13:57 b_jonas: p is too big 09:14:08 b_jonas: so that's infeasible. 09:14:16 int-e: huh what? 09:14:50 I don't understand this protocol 09:15:27 That's not quite the protocol my friend described. 09:15:30 Let me see if I can remember. 09:15:36 I mean, how does it exclude a replay where the other person tries to redo this for multiple different versions of y 09:15:38 b_jonas: oh I see what you mean, yes it needs some tweaking for that, hmm. 09:16:08 b_jonas: I was assuming that x and y are also large in themselves, which is silly... 09:16:11 I think there may be a fundamental obstraction to symmetry in these kinds of protocols 09:16:36 often one player gets perfect security and the other player gets n-bit security 09:17:33 Oh, it was called SPEKE 09:17:35 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEKE 09:19:56 Aha. That uses more DH. :) 09:20:13 I guess what i said is wrong for the Diffie-Hellman based ones 09:20:24 but it applied to the problem of intersecting two bitsets 09:20:30 shachaf: thanks 09:20:40 I think there's an extra step past what's described there where I give you H("A"++K) and you give me H("B"++k) or something. 09:20:56 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62707&oldid=62702 * A * (+6) /* Java implementation */ 09:21:01 Which is unfortunately asymmetric because one of us has to send it first? 09:21:04 (I'll console myself with the fact that I recognized the importance of hashing the numbers :-)) 09:21:33 Anyway, this protocol is quite simple, and the socialist millionaire protocol seems very complicated. 09:21:48 As I remember it, anyway. 09:21:55 So what's the advantage of the complicated one? 09:22:22 "A passive attacker doesn't lear whether x = y." 09:22:25 *learn 09:22:34 (paraphrased from wikipedia) 09:22:35 "tweaking" 09:23:08 b_jonas: this happens when you treat cryptographic protocols as a puzzle... you come up with flawed solutions :) 09:23:22 Do they learn it here? 09:23:27 (At least in my case. I'm *not* a cryptographer.) 09:23:29 int-e: sadly it also comes up when people try to use crypto seriously in production, not as a puzzle 09:23:41 shachaf: K is communicated by both parties. 09:23:55 shachaf: So an eavesdropper can do the comparison. 09:24:10 cryptography is dangerous, you have to pay someone competent to do it, or at least pay them to tell you that your design is wrong 09:24:15 Why is K communicated? 09:24:33 shachaf: how else are the parties comparing the two Ks? 09:25:00 shachaf: I still don't understand how that's supposed to work 09:25:00 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62708&oldid=62706 * JonoCode9374 * (+135) /* Output Methods */ 09:25:06 The way I described, by hashing them? 09:25:33 Doesn't sending K defeat the whole protocol? 09:26:11 Ah, what you described up there. Hmm. 09:26:43 `? Eurytion 09:26:44 Eurytion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:27:39 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62709&oldid=62707 * A * (+172) /* Examples */ 09:28:03 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62710&oldid=62709 * A * (+0) Oops 09:28:57 perhaps my hon. and learned friend fungot wants to add something to the campaign statements you told us yesterday, before I leave for the voting chambers? 09:28:58 b_jonas: i am, however, the globalisation of financial markets. in the case of joseph o'dell, and with us in doing battle for the new citizens of the european parliament and the council on the basis of democracy. 09:29:37 I think int-e's real contention is that my behavior is or has been too immature to have been born before 1980. 09:29:40 [[User:JonoCode9374]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62711&oldid=61776 * JonoCode9374 * (+170) Added something I've learnt 09:29:50 Which is reasonable. 09:29:54 the only champion of democracy, protecting us from the evil forces who threaten it, that's what you always want to paint yourself, don't you, my hon. and learned friend fungot 09:29:56 b_jonas: mr president, the question of the legitimacy in international trade, especially in the context of the internal market, which will take place, at community level. with this in mind and we should be ready to accept, and why we are now awaiting the commission's proposal for a new millennium round, which contradicted the very principle of preferential agreements that the council will support the latter view. it comes late 09:30:36 oh, now that is more informative 09:31:01 so you want to encourage international trade at the community level, such as individual people ordering small electronics from the far east through ebay? 09:31:47 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62712&oldid=62710 * TuxCrafting * (+41) 09:32:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:33:34 with its striped brown pattern, the building of the state archives in Amsterdam looks like it's made of wafers. it's so appetizing, perhaps more so than the gingerbread house of the witch 09:34:01 ^style 09:34:02 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube 09:34:34 ^style pa 09:34:34 Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics) 09:34:41 What? I wanted Peano Arithmetic. 09:34:55 ^style discworld 09:34:55 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 09:35:03 fungot: hit me 09:35:04 shachaf: ' a mixture of fnord and violence. but, well, when i worked for my brother-in-law, fnord. the silicon anti-defamation league had been going on for some time afterwards.' 09:36:02 fizzie: Shouldn't there be an Illuminatus! trilogy style? 09:36:34 don't change it! the europarl elevtion is not over yet 09:36:51 other people may want to ask questions to the candidates 09:36:54 Which means you can get plenty of the real thing. 09:46:28 yes, I'll go cast a real vote in a few hours. with good old paper trail, no fancy cryptographical protocols. 09:53:45 although there is sort of a cryptographical element 09:54:44 to cast the vote, I use the pen provided, which feels wrong, because I prefer to use a nice fancy pen for important stuff like this, but the vote is supposed to be anonymous, so it's preferable to have my ballot be as unrecognizable and generic as possible 09:56:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:58:06 bring enough nice fancy pens for everyone 10:01:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:02:23 shachaf: I'd have had to arrive there six hours before for that, and even then I don't know if it's allowed for me to do that 10:02:27 shachaf: Maybe. I'd need an electronic copy of the text though. 10:03:28 kmc gave me a printed copy of the text 10:03:32 it contains many electrons 10:03:54 I've got a printed copy as well. 10:04:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:04:42 You can have all the electrons out of mine if you want. 10:04:45 And the positrons. 10:04:59 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:06:17 I should get mosh set up, this train wifi disconnects TCP connections every time it either stops at a station or starts moving again. 10:10:53 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:11:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:24:41 shachaf: AFAICS that socialist millionaire's protocol relies solely on discrete logs/computational Diffie-Hellman... in particular the description in the OTR protocol remarks that the quantity h^{\alpha\beta a b} cannot be computed by either party using the information transmitted in the protocol, making it effectively a random element modulo p, so no information about (x-y) beyond equality is... 10:24:47 ...revealed. 10:26:47 "solely" 10:27:33 b_jonas: hmm, you think otherwise? 10:28:38 You mean it doesn't rely on a hash? 10:28:47 SPEKE has stronger, less well researched, assumptions. 10:28:50 shachaf: yes 10:29:17 I feel like a cryptography hash isn't that strong an assumption? 10:30:06 (Of DH's x |-> x^a (mod p) has a lot of the relevant properties of a hash function, being a random permutation.) 10:30:18 err pseudo-random. 10:30:56 shachaf: Oh but SPEKE is also murky on the discrete log side... it's not a clearcut instance of DH. 10:30:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:31:12 int-e: no, it's just that it's funny to say that a protocol relies "solely" on something as strong as a public key cryptography primitive. 10:31:49 DH is a stronger assumption than a one-way function 10:32:04 possibly still weaker than a full public-key crypto, but still 10:32:25 b_jonas: No, it's not odd at all. "solely" means that there's nothing else, not that the thing referred to is insignifcant. 10:32:30 to me the distinction goes between whether you use only symmetric crypto, and when you need public key crypto too 10:32:57 i,i what kind of coin is that? 10:33:48 even if RSA or DH is a funnier thing to explain as a popular mathematics bling than any symmetric crypto stuff 10:34:01 Do you like this, where this is Lamport signatures? 10:34:13 `hello darkness, my old friend 10:34:13 hello, World 10:34:36 `? s&g 10:34:37 s&g? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:34:38 `hi darkness, my old friend 10:34:39 Hi darkness, my old friend. Harkness, my old friend. 10:35:06 Playing 08 The Sounds Of Silence.ogg. 10:35:38 `? hi 10:35:38 that song is from way before 08 hth 10:35:39 hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:35:46 `? `hi 10:35:46 ​`hi? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:35:51 hmm 10:35:55 shachaf: it's number 08 on that particular best of album. 10:36:25 Hmm. 10:37:44 Oh, you're playing The Sounds of Silence. 10:37:48 Maybe that song is from 08. 10:39:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:39:12 as opposed to the movie? 10:39:49 Probably not, but I've never noticed that extra 's' before. (Especially since the lyrics mix singular and plural? Or is it this version...) 10:41:22 shachaf: It's more complicated: '"The Sound of Silence", originally "The Sounds of Silence", is a song by the American music duo Simon & Garfunkel.' 10:42:25 `quote sound 10:42:25 263) Of course, "b" is clearly just "pv". Say "pvottle". It will sound... similar to exactly the same as "bottle". \ 290) boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer \ 298) [on Sgeo's karaoke] Sgeo: awesome sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 385) No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 432) Well, I'm now ex 10:42:33 oh wait, the film is called "The Sound of Music", not "The Sound of Silence" 10:42:58 `2 quote sound 10:42:59 2/4:ow experimenting with clients It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud. \ 605) also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 734) i saw Godspeed You! Black Emperor live it is hard to tell when the soundcheck ends and the set begins \ 789) this sounds sort of like @ kmc well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science \ 799) 499) What i 10:43:22 I wonder why, when I run a program with posix_spawn instead of fork/exec, it wraps somewhat differently in the terminal. 10:43:34 Unfortunately I don't care quite enough to find out. 10:45:28 . o O ( wrap? ) 10:46:04 Well, the formatting is somehow different, when I run ls. 10:47:35 Different number of columns. 10:49:19 shachaf: you can use ls -1 to force one column, ls -C to force multiple columns, and the COLUMNS variable will probably tell how many cells wide ls will format the multi-column output 10:49:43 shachaf: perhaps a silly question, but what are you passing for envp? 10:49:54 so eg. run (COLUMNS=132 ls -C) if you want to print the output to a 132-column printer 10:49:56 Aha. I just worked it out. 10:50:04 posix_spawn is indeed running with an empty environment. 10:50:10 I'm surprised anything worked. 10:50:28 shachaf: yeah, we often feel that way in modern computing 10:51:12 heck, in my job my current task is to try to get some stupid third-party mess of a software working, and I don't think I'll succeed 10:51:26 all I can do is run installers at random and get uninformative error messages 10:51:38 So what are you supposed to do? 10:51:53 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 10:51:53 I see some examples that do "char **environ;". 10:51:58 That seems a bit sketchy. 10:52:04 that seems to be the task: run installers at random and hope it works 10:53:09 I'm getting three "connection failed" error message popups at bootup now, with no detail on what connection to what failed 10:53:49 Is using a magic global variable the standard way to do this? 10:53:54 shachaf: hmm. `man environ` agrees with that... but doesn't have a "CONFORMING TO" section :-( 10:55:15 (defining _GNU_SOURCE and using would look better) 10:55:50 the archæological museum in Leiden was awesome by the way. it's the archæological museum with the second largest exhibition I've ever seen (this may change when I go to London). it has _three_ egyptian sanctums rebuilt inside the building 10:56:21 int-e: the gnu libc info documentation may tell some details 10:56:27 shachaf: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap08.html#tag_08 10:56:35 But I don't want _GNU_SOURCE! 10:56:36 so it's posix, by all appearances. 10:56:42 deal with it. 10:56:42 I mean, maybe I do. 10:56:59 So does setenv actually modify that array? 10:57:01 I guess it must. 10:57:25 Maybe I'll show them by not using libc at all. 10:57:25 int-e: https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Environment-Access.html#index-environ 10:57:48 I'll write my own entry point that just gets the environment right from the place ELF or whatever specifies. 10:57:53 it says "This variable is declared in the header file unistd.h", and also about the third parameter to main 10:58:26 b_jonas: that is not in agreement with the manpage. 10:58:52 "([The environ] variable must be declared in the user program, but is declared in the header file if the _GNU_SOURCE feature test macro is defined.)" 10:59:40 OK, now ls is well-behaved. 11:00:31 I guess I'll go back to posix_spawnp. 11:01:07 posix_swamp? 11:01:47 I feel like the posix_spawn interface is way too complicated, though. 11:02:38 b_jonas: and experimentally, the manpage is right. 11:02:47 It consists of... 21 functions. 11:02:52 Isn't that ridiculous? 11:02:57 why are you even spawning ls? 11:03:06 or is that just to test the swamp? 11:03:16 I mean, I'm usually spawning other commands, but I was testing with ls and even that behaved badly. 11:03:44 posix_spawn_file_actions_adddup2 <-- no further questions, your honor. 11:04:02 When did people start writing all their APIs like api_thing_t *x = api_malloc_my_thing(); api_set_thing_blah(x, 1); api_set_thing_blam(x, 2); ? 11:04:24 Instead of just using s a struct and maybe a version number or sizeof or something for ABI compatibility? 11:04:38 (I understand it... everything that you might want to do between fork and exec has to be supported.) 11:04:51 shachaf: since you want a C interface with binary compatibility decades into the future 11:05:05 struct with version number... could work, sure 11:05:09 shachaf: OO is good for you! Embrace it! 11:05:11 Look at this nonsense: https://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/group___p_c_m___h_w___params.html 11:05:17 And in C, that's what OO looks like. 11:05:26 I was writing ALSA code and it's just such a mess. 11:06:00 seriously, three sanctums 11:06:02 What happened to writing functions that accept data as argument? 11:06:07 s 11:06:13 datas as argument 11:06:37 Also this way you can write hundreds of lines of code without thinking too much. It's, a huge productivity boost. 11:06:56 shachaf: just be happy it's not one of those setter functions that take an argument with variable type, using C ... prototype, like setsockopt or the curl functions 11:07:11 those are great ways to get silent type errors 11:07:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:07:30 Also what's the deal with APIs that malloc things just because their size might change in the future? 11:07:45 shachaf: example? 11:08:12 https://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/ICC/client-to-window-manager/XAllocSizeHints.html 11:08:17 (and make sure it doesn't malloc things to get an aligned data storage on old C) 11:08:39 Instead of just telling you the size, they give you a function to malloc it and that's it. 11:08:47 What if there was a rule that APIs aren't allowed to call malloc? 11:08:50 imo good rule 11:09:07 meh 11:09:46 You'd end up having to pre-allocate everything yourself, with high buffer overflow potential. 11:10:03 (especially because programmers are smart) 11:11:06 You can still include the malloc API if you want, I guess. 11:11:07 int-e: and you'll end up with MS-style functions that take the size of the buffer in two arguments 11:11:22 Static allocation seems safer to me than malloc/free anyway. 11:11:25 No lifetime issues. 11:11:53 you know, safe_memcpy(void *src, size_t srclen, void *dest, size_t destlen, size_t numbytes); 11:12:00 Another thing ALSA could have done was put a reasonable number of padding bytes in the struct, and require them to be 0. 11:12:08 That would let them do extensibility just fine. 11:13:29 You don't even need that many because you can put a pointer there in the future if you really need a lot of space. 11:14:10 I bet I shouldn't be using libasound anyway because it's LGPL. 11:14:33 shachaf: I'm not opposed to providing a low-level API that leaves allocation to the user, but I would treat it like that, as a low-level API for special case use. 11:14:59 For most uses, having to think about allocation will just lead to more bugs. 11:15:13 But you have to think about allocation anyway even if someone else does it for you. 11:15:39 (It's bad enough that you will end up having to check for errors all the time, though there are tricks using NULL or static error objects to alleviate that need.) 11:15:45 pulseaudio's API is even worse, of course. They insist on doing reference counting. 11:15:50 harfbuzz too. 11:16:14 glib :-P 11:16:20 APIs that do reference counting for no reason should just be illegal. 11:16:39 and what makes you say that they do it for no reason? 11:17:06 They claim the reason is my convenience. 11:17:16 (I'm not a huge fan of reference counting but that's because I'd prefer proper GC.) 11:17:24 But what's convenient for me is to clearly know the lifetime of every object. 11:17:48 Well, you're special. 11:18:00 I don't think I'm that special? 11:18:16 s/clearly/be able to/ 11:18:17 or you can just have multiple apis, of different level, for the same underlying library. which already happens sometimes, with C and C++ and python apis. 11:18:36 and sometimes even with multiple C apis or multiple C++ apis of different levels 11:18:40 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62713&oldid=62712 * TuxCrafting * (+1908) 11:18:52 Sure, put whatever nonsense you want on top of the basic API. 11:19:12 shachaf: the standard attitude today is not to care unless the object holds resources other than memory :P 11:19:41 (Aka scarce resources. ;-) ) 11:19:49 *AKA 11:19:55 "memory is cheap, allocations are expensive" 11:21:08 make inner loops fast. 11:21:17 * int-e shrugs. 11:22:02 shachaf: It's not even that I don't care about these things. They just don't matter 99% of the time. 11:22:17 anyway here's my fancy program that uses posix_spawnp: http://slbkbs.org/tmp/tym.c 11:22:43 In the remaining 1% of the cases I do want the low-level interfaces, I will complain about reference counting... and pretty much agree with all the other things you're saying. 11:23:09 My claim isn't merely that the reference counting is easier but less efficient. 11:23:21 it's less efficient than doing GC properly, yes. 11:23:23 The claim is that it's both less convenient and less efficient. 11:24:21 GC is just not practical for anything that wants to be even moderately real-time as far as I can tell. 11:24:59 real-time and fast are often at odds anyway. 11:25:31 GCs seem to be neither. 11:25:35 (Real-time GC is a thing. And last I looked it was a trade-off between maximal response time and performance.) 11:26:11 Yes, GC trades throughput for latency. 11:26:17 GC trades memory for speed. You want to do it as infrequently as possible, and you want to do it in a way where you don't pay for the garbage (that's the main attraction of copying GC). 11:26:20 And even in the best case the latency requirements are pretty high. 11:26:23 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62714&oldid=62713 * A * (-57) 11:26:46 But often you can do better than sophisticated GC in both latency and throughput, using much less sohisticated code. 11:27:20 * int-e shrugs 11:27:26 (Because GCs have to do everything dynamically and you can do it statically.) 11:27:51 Are any real-time GCs even available to me? 11:27:53 The reference counting (poor person's GC) comes up in libraries for a reason... you can't predict how things are going to be shared at that level. 11:28:09 The library can't predict it, but I sure can. 11:29:01 https://docs.oracle.com/javase/realtime/doc_2.2/release/JavaRTSQuickStart.html <-- really just soft real time, last I checked. But they tried. 11:30:17 What's the maximum pause time? 11:31:08 In https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main which I think is a newer project, they give a maximum pause time of 10ms which is just ridiculously long. 11:33:14 Ah, hmm, that page seems to be claiming 100µs? I'm suspicious. 11:33:27 lol 11:34:33 I tried to recreate a directory structure inside a subdirectory, like (find -type d -exec mkdir -v foo/{} \;) 11:34:37 guess why that's a bad idea 11:35:55 I've stopped following this a decade ago... back then the status was that a) academic work on real-time GC exists -- basically, if you have an upper bound on the allocation rate in addition to the execution times of your jobs, you can make things work out, given enough memory b) there are real-time Java efforts with somewhat murkier guarantees, making them soft real time. apparently in the... 11:36:01 ...meantime they promise hard real time... under suitable conditions (which you have to check as a programmer). 11:37:03 What about Erlang, I wonder... 11:37:20 Erlang has per-thread GC with no shared memory. 11:37:32 So no long global pauses, I assume. 11:37:58 (In Haskell the state of the art seems to be to limit allocations *and* the working set size dramatically, and possibly do eager GC (like once per frame for real-time graphics)) 11:38:37 IOW, there's no designed-to-be real-time GC for Haskell that I'm aware of. 11:41:25 One good "GC" you can do once-per-frame is to allocate everything in an arena and then clear it at the end of the frame. 11:41:45 * int-e wouldn't use Haskell beyond small, best-effort, soft real time tasks. 11:42:01 This is very simple and cheaper than the fanciest GC. 11:42:28 no, it's exactly as cheap as a copying GC when you've lost all the references to everything you've allocated during the frame :-P. 11:42:49 How? 11:43:01 but... don't you sometimes want to keep data from one frame to another? 11:43:10 because you have no references to follow. and then you discard the semispace and use the other one. 11:43:12 A copying GC takes time proportional to your roots or live set or whatever. 11:43:25 It needs to at least look at all of those. 11:43:35 shachaf: a sufficiently fancy GC would know that those roots haven't been touched ;-) 11:43:48 b_jonas: Yes, so you don't allocate those things in the per-frame arena. 11:44:23 * int-e is being contrary. 11:44:47 But this isn't even information you can specify to the typical GC because the idea of a GC is that you can be all "idk my bff jill" about it. 11:44:54 shachaf: I mean, you're assuming that the programmer can outsmart the GC. You're probably right. 11:44:57 So it has to figure out everything dynamically. 11:45:11 shachaf: But there's no fundamental reason for this ;-) 11:45:33 The fundamental reason is that the GC is dynamic. 11:45:44 but yes, I do agree that in many situations, allocating stuff in a pool that you free at once is a useful strategy 11:45:56 If your language lets you do things more statically, with regions or whatever, then your GC isn't really a GC anymore. 11:46:38 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62715&oldid=62650 * A * (+336) 11:46:42 It doesn't have to be. You can do static life-time analysis to improve the GC. I'm sure there's research on that... 11:47:04 shachaf: I disagree quite strongly with that premise. 11:47:38 shachaf: congratulations, you made the wiki! 11:47:46 I'm pretty mad about that. 11:47:53 int-e: the problem is that it's a bit hard to mix static and gc, because your gc often has to traverse the data you allocated, even such data that you will deallocate precisely at the right moment because of static considerations 11:48:18 My suggestion to the wiki adminstrators: Edit my name out of the wiki; purge my name out of the wiki history; ban A. 11:48:39 They are obviously acting in bad faith. 11:48:47 and I do think that in most cases, static lifetimes works well, and refcounting works in the rest of the cases 11:49:26 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62716&oldid=62715 * A * (+406) 11:49:39 it's just that the static lifetimes are sometimes hard to prove, so you use refcounting or gc to work around programmer mistakes, even if it's technically slower at runtime 11:50:00 I'm feeling pretty distressed about being quoted on the wiki like that. 11:50:09 yeah I suspect a ban will happen sooner or later. 11:50:19 you take the runtime speed penalty because it's better than the potential use after free from a bug 11:50:43 or many A ban. 11:50:46 *maybe 11:51:06 A is back? hello 11:51:07 `hi A 11:51:08 Hi A. HA. 11:51:21 int-e: Well, maybe a static lifetime manager exists that's as good as handwritten code and as easy as never thinking about allocations. But it sounds like even a rough approximation is an open research problem. 11:51:29 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:51:42 Approximately all existing GCs rely on doing most everything at runtime. 11:52:20 and then there's python 11:53:59 oerjan or whoever: I would appreciate not being mentioned in the wiki in any way, not even in the history, if that can be arranged. 11:54:01 just a random find: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.219.1650 11:56:27 shachaf: I think the main problem here is this: GC is /good enough/ for so many purposes... except when you have hard memory or time constraints, and then nobody's would be willing to trust any amount of static analysis to get things right; they want to see exactly what happens in the code. So there's no real market for better static analysis in this area. 11:56:50 Hmm, by "not research" I meant "an implementation I can use for something", rather than a paper with a sentence like "we formulate an operational semantics". 11:57:06 heh 11:57:09 shachaf: I was following my own "there's research" remark. 11:57:22 Ah, sure. 11:57:32 int-e: I suspect GC isn't actually good enough for any interactive program. 11:57:47 oh nice, this command line is almost completed 11:58:00 Today consumer screens run at 120Hz or 144Hz refresh rate. 11:58:13 144Hz is <7ms update time. 11:58:19 shachaf: I think you're proving wrong in practice, by tons of interactive software written in Java and Javascript. 11:58:40 60Hz is still mostly standard, 120Hz is for gamers ;-) 11:58:41 Oh, sorry, I meant "good software". 11:58:42 my TFT screen runs at 60Hz, but I'm not sure it counts as "today's". 11:58:53 (especially since we have this silly UHD trend) 11:59:30 The iPad Pro runs at 120Hz. 11:59:56 `? resolution 11:59:57 * int-e ionders about that 144Hz figure.. 11:59:57 As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other. 12:00:08 int-e: good point, I think this wisdom has to be updated 12:00:32 My laptop is 3840x2160. 12:00:38 I think there are now monitors with larger resolution 12:00:39 * int-e should try finding a HD IPS display whiler there's still time... 12:01:25 um, what does "HD IPS" mean? I'm lost in all these marketing abbreviations 12:01:45 "HD" is some sort of resolution that they use so we don't know the actual numbers, right? 12:01:55 but what resolution? I can't follow all these abbreviations 12:01:56 HD = 2K = 1920x1080; IPS = in plane switching, which is the TFT technology that gives high angular color invariance. 12:02:24 ok 12:02:26 (and which my current display doesn't have) 12:02:43 Wow, you can even get a 240Hz laptop. 12:02:46 > 1000/240 12:02:48 4.166666666666667 12:02:53 why?! 12:03:01 why waste all that precious memory bandwidth? 12:03:09 To match the responsiveness of an Apple II? 12:03:17 https://danluu.com/input-lag/ 12:03:52 can humans even distinguish 240 Hz and 120 Hz progressive updates? 12:04:31 I'll have to try out the hardware sometime. 12:04:42 People say 60->120 is a big improvement. 12:04:43 though tbh I'd be more willing to spend that bandwidth on higher refresh rates than on higher resolution 12:04:51 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62717&oldid=62716 * A * (+135) 12:05:08 yeah that 8ms improvement should be noticable. 12:05:09 int-e: for 120 Hz versus 60 Hz, sure, that makes sense 12:05:43 If you're at 1920x1080 at 60 fps, you can quadruple the bandwidth to go to 4K or 240Hz. 12:05:52 int-e: not when you run windows software that sometimes makes you wait for seconds before they react 12:06:07 > 1/120 -- this is how much ealier you may get to see an update when using 120 instead of 60Hz refresh rate 12:06:09 8.333333333333333e-3 12:06:34 > 1000/120 12:06:37 8.333333333333334 12:06:40 hth 12:06:56 I can add -3 and 3 ;-) 12:06:59 8ms is a long time. 12:07:17 int-e: but 120 Hz referesh rate can be better than 60 Hz for reasons other than latency too 12:07:26 For 240Hz that can give you another 4ms... that really should be barely noticable. 12:07:56 I am actually confusil about why people went with 144Hz rather than 120Hz. 12:08:03 Yeah, 120Hz is a multiple of 24. 12:08:18 (24 being a standard movie frame rate) 12:08:35 Maybe there are 48Hz movies? That could explain the 144. 12:09:14 or just 24fps with interleaving... 12:14:27 I still think a lot of this is just the marketing attitude that bigger numbers are better. 12:17:19 what I'd like is cheap cameras where the sensor has six or seven different color channels, rather than just three. they'd see differences in color that we can't percieve. yes, I do understand that we have almost no software support for such images, and also that it would come at the expense of resolution, but still. 12:17:35 I'm not saying that all cameras should have that, sure, we can keep the 3 and 1 channel cameras too 12:17:39 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62718&oldid=62717 * A * (+254) 12:18:31 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62719&oldid=62718 * A * (+47) 12:19:00 . o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) ) 12:19:03 int-e: yeah. and in a sense that's better when they use words where it's not even clear which one is better, like "full HD" and "QVGA" and "widescreen" and "ultra widescreen" so they can toggle between two options every few years and sell the new option as better than the old option every time 12:19:17 I think we went from iodized salt to iodine-less salt and back twice each already 12:19:29 each time they sold it as an advantage over the previous kind of salt 12:19:48 so now the fancy salt costs 200 forints a kilogram rather than 12 forint per kilogram 12:20:09 int-e: please don't use such a low limit 12:20:28 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62720&oldid=62619 * A * (+378) Is this the etymology? 12:20:32 b_jonas: I know :P 12:20:42 int-e: or do you mean announcements of the edits on the irc channel? because that could work 12:21:20 b_jonas: It's a very flawed idea... rate limits don't model the intent (what matters is the significance of the edits) 12:21:48 int-e: so just limit to 5 bad edits per day, and an unlimited number of good edits 12:22:04 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62721&oldid=62719 * A * (-301) 12:22:07 yeah, let me repeat my question from a few days ago 12:23:13 in linux, for an ip socket, what setsockopt do I use to change whether the evil bit shall be set in outgoing packets for that socket? I can't find it in http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/ip.7.html 12:23:23 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:24:47 @google IP "evil bit" 12:24:49 https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3514.txt 12:25:21 Ah, 1 April 2003 ... maybe you don't. 12:26:48 -!- GeekDude has joined. 12:33:20 [[Jungle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62722 * Madk * (+22095) Add Jungle esolang 12:38:34 ok, I have to leave now, both for the election and for real-life stuff involving family. see you later. 12:38:36 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:46:20 -!- oklopol has joined. 12:56:05 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62723&oldid=61699 * A * (+2527) /* VerboseFuck */ 12:59:43 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62724&oldid=62708 * TuxCrafting * (+2490) 13:04:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:16:16 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62725&oldid=62724 * TuxCrafting * (+1478) 13:18:14 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62726&oldid=62459 * Madk * (+13) /* J */ Add Jungle to language list 13:20:37 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62727&oldid=62725 * TuxCrafting * (+72) 13:23:25 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62728&oldid=62714 * TuxCrafting * (-369) 13:42:20 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:04:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 14:09:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:14:23 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:14:47 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 14:19:14 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:19:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:20:12 -!- Soni has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."). 14:34:39 -!- adu has joined. 14:38:06 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62729&oldid=62728 * A * (+74) 14:38:15 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62730&oldid=62729 * A * (-1766) /* Buggy Java implementation */ 14:41:22 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:44:39 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:07:47 /ignore -channel #esoteric -regex -pattern " .5\\*. .03A. .5\\*. " esowiki <--- I finally found a pattern that works with irssi... have to include the color codes... silly. 15:31:44 [[Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62731&oldid=62730 * TuxCrafting * (-4) optimize examples 15:41:20 beautiful: VPMADD52HUQ — Packed Multiply of Unsigned 52-bit Unsigned Integers and Add High 52-bit Products to 64-bit Accumulators 15:41:46 [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62732&oldid=62339 * Madk * (+13) /* Implemented */ Add Jungle to implemented language list 15:42:04 (s/H/L/;s/High/Low/ exists as well) 15:45:14 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:49:03 [[Jungle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62733&oldid=62722 * Madk * (-50) /* Reference implementation */ Fix inaccurate info about ///BEGIN/// and ///END/// 16:13:03 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62734&oldid=62491 * Unlimiter * (+6) 16:14:09 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62735&oldid=62734 * Unlimiter * (-284) 17:20:21 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 17:48:30 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:52:07 -!- MDude has joined. 18:10:03 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:10:42 `? may 18:10:43 may? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:10:45 `? can 18:10:46 Can cans can cans? 18:11:03 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 18:12:12 * int-e can scan canned cans. 18:13:15 May is an auxiliary verb, a month, and a prime minister. 18:14:25 *was* a prime minister! 18:14:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:14:52 still is, I think, but not for very long 18:15:27 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:18:02 /topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | 18:18:07 https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf 18:18:09 that's too long 18:19:04 /topic IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf 18:19:17 better, but still slightly too long I think... what's the max length? 18:19:23 390 18:19:41 [ # 'IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf' 18:19:42 b_jonas: 335 18:19:46 should work 18:19:53 -!- b_jonas has set topic: IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming languages! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 18:20:45 can we remove the old wisdom pdf? 18:21:13 -!- b_jonas has set topic: IOCCC winners are announced; source code release planned for 2019-06-02 | Welcome to the international center for esoteric programming language design, development, and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 18:21:23 `? wisdom.pdf 18:21:24 Nicely formatted wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf 18:22:35 `slwd wisdom.pdf//s=wis=classical wis= 18:22:37 wisdom.pdf//Nicely formatted classical wisdoms and quotes book at https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf 18:22:48 ;-) 18:23:12 yeah 18:42:30 `? x 18:42:31 x? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:42:57 I should think only the https://esolangs.org/logs/ is needed for the logs and others isn't (although maybe that web page should link to other one in case you want to look at older logs), and if it is still too long by one byte, change it to "http:" instead of "https:" 18:43:54 zzo38: I think fizzie or someone suggested that it's better to have all three in the topic, because there have been times when the esolangs.org logs server was down but one of the others were working 18:44:04 `? logs 18:44:07 Logs: see channel topic. 18:44:15 seriously? 18:44:18 `? log 18:44:19 Logs: see channel topic. 18:45:29 `slashlearn log//#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:45:31 Relearned 'log': #esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:45:32 `? logs 18:45:34 ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:45:47 could also say something about logarithme 18:45:56 `? logarithm 18:45:57 logarithm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:46:12 Anyways, the codu.org server does not have recent logs (although tunes.org does, so perhaps should be kept in case esolangs.org is down). 18:47:36 I'd err in favor of advertising the channel logs well, because one of the network-wide policies on freenode is that if a channel has public logs, then those should be advertised 18:47:43 (The wisdom file should still list all of them though) 18:48:07 ``` grep -ERiw codu wisdom 18:48:10 wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:48:12 ``` grep -ERiw tunes wisdom 18:48:13 wisdom/log:#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:48:16 hmm 18:48:18 Yes, but the codu.org does not have recent logs. 18:48:19 `log 18:48:19 ​/hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ shuf: '????-??-??.txt': No such file or directory \ ????-??-??.txt: 18:48:19 `logs 18:48:20 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found 18:48:35 huh 18:49:22 oh, I think `log tries to look up logfiles from back when there was a copy of them in hackeso's filesystem 19:14:10 I tried to advertize #esoteric logs in my circles but it did no discernible effect 19:14:14 :P 19:15:27 int-e: So they kept posting my name? What's that about? 19:17:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:20:04 . o O ( can we rate limit edits per user to bursts of 5, 5 per hour? ;-) (I might regret thios...) ) ← there are rate limiting settings that can be used, but I don't think any do that precisely; also, it'd be a problem if people were creating articles via repeated edits 19:20:32 I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck but it'd likely do too much harm to stop it (besides, it /is/ an interesting language…) 19:24:33 hi ais523 19:25:44 hi 19:26:06 Is my request (not to be mentioned in the wiki, even in the history) feasible? 19:26:43 it's possible to replace history entries with markers showing that something was deleted from them 19:26:46 This person is obviously doing it on purpose, because they're quoting people talking about how annoying they are on the wiki. 19:26:57 we do that in cases where people post personal information to the wiki 19:27:09 when someone's just copying public information to the wiki, there's no obvious privacy issue 19:27:20 however, if someone is intentionally doing it to annoy someone else that'd be a reason to remove it of its own accord 19:27:26 It's only a strong preference. 19:27:35 But this person is clearly acting in bad faith here. 19:28:04 I think A thinks that the wiki works like a nomic, i.e. any rule that isn't explicitly stated doesn't exist 19:28:22 I don't care how they think. 19:29:04 in this case I think A's userpage counts as an attack page, because I can't really see a legitimate reason for the way it's being used atm 19:29:44 actually doing a revision delete on it is going to be painful, though, because of the way he edits it, with repeated small changes 19:30:21 But not doing it because of that reason is rewarding bad behavior. 19:31:18 I'm trying to find the last good revision to revert to now 19:31:18 If repeated small changes are a problem then something should be done about it because they're going to keep doing it. 19:32:08 they're not normally a problem, they just make revision deletes slower 19:32:17 if the whole thing had been done in one change it'd have been gone by now 19:32:32 I'm trying to do the delete at the moment, it just takes a while to do it correctly in this case 19:33:02 OK. Thanks. 19:33:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:33:32 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62736&oldid=62721 * Ais523 * (-3812) set top revision for revision delete; this is the most recent version of this page that isn't disruptive / an attack on other people 19:34:34 shachaf: could you check the history to make sure that there's nothing in the history metadata that you object to? (i.e. not the content of the page, just things like the edit summary, i.e. things directly visible on the "history" page) 19:36:04 It seems fine. 19:36:17 [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 34 revisions on page [[User:A]]: content hidden: attack page / intentional disruption / intentionally antagonizing other people; also off-topic 19:36:18 My direct objection was only to the last few edits, that mention me by name. 19:37:24 well, it's been attacking people (both me and others) for a while 19:37:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:37:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:37:44 I should have looked at the history earlier, the most recent revision was toned down a little but some of the earlier ones were obviously unacceptable, it showed intent to antagonise people 19:37:50 (even the most recent revision was pretty bad though) 19:38:56 I agree. 19:39:24 quoting someone because you intend to annoy them is one of the worst reasons to quote… 19:39:40 anyway, I think the revision delete worked (although I can't easily check because I'm an admin and can see the deleted text regardless) 19:40:13 it's much easier than it used to be, the old method was both confusing to anyone watching and easy to screw up, also it was harder to audit 19:40:37 wow, esowiki drama? 19:40:39 the newer version lets us mark the history as having been deleted, which is much better for transparency, also the process is a little easier 19:40:55 Phantom_Hoover: this happens every now and then 19:41:05 i remember when you deleted revisions by deleting the entire page and then only undeleting certain revisions 19:41:09 yes, that's the old method 19:41:30 it still works but it's easy to screw up and if the page ever gets deleted a second time, all the revisions get mixed up with each other 19:41:45 the new method was added a while back because the old method kind-of sucked :-) 19:43:12 The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along. 19:44:22 and by 'a while back' you mean over ten years ago, right 19:44:35 i remember fucking around with revisiondelete when i was a bureaucrat on rationalwiki lol 19:45:06 shachaf: https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61108698_10100593041263622_7774938434182840320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_eui2=AeGvh5fMnqlQ5N0kDXYiXyOUPLFa4QyuR-JWDj2l8sT6urnUDguFAQFLgUKB4mbDweYPObW8r3uqRlhR1yyKhjc928FnroVdeQTQl_wnvoNGzA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=2840eb864facd95f2d14a142d5989774&oe=5D5FE019 19:45:15 Phantom_Hoover: it's more recent on Esolang because it was a long time before we upgraded and gained the feature 19:45:20 it was added to MediaWiki ages ago, though, yes 19:45:22 cat 19:45:37 Do all y'all like cats? 19:46:10 people who don't like cats are deeply suspicious 19:46:30 The real drama is when it'll turn out A was secretly me all along. ← do you really think A's a sockpuppet of an established #esoteric user? it's technically possible to check, and it would be a major problem if true, but I think it's unlikely on behavioural grounds 19:46:36 I agree. 19:46:56 No, I don't think that, it was a joke. 19:47:07 AlsoI don't know how you'd check whether it actually is me. 19:47:31 i feel it was unsporting to delete the drama before giving me a chance to rubberneck :p 19:48:04 Phantom_Hoover: The drama was just a page full of verbatim quotes from IRC of people talking about how annoying A's editing behavior is. 19:48:04 well, you could make it very hard to check by consistently using different VPNs, browsers, etc. for different personas 19:48:09 but most people who try that screw up at one point 19:48:14 lol 19:48:30 ais523: I tried to get some revisions deleted from hu.wikipedia and wikidata earlier this year. It was about the birthdate of a famous actor who asked to get that removed from the article about her. That actor asked wikipedia to delete it, but 19:48:45 I mean, I don't have a wiki account, and I don't think my IP address is even visible to anyone here. 19:48:48 b_jonas: oh, Wikipedia birthday wars are ridiculous 19:49:01 i shouldn't be surprised but i am 19:49:09 I guess you could trick me by posting an interesting link in the channel or /msg and hoping that I cilck on it. 19:49:26 was initially refused, because the birthday was mentioned in some cvs online that were apparently published with her agreement. She got two of those deleted, so the birthday was available only from wikipedia and some archive.org pages. 19:49:53 shachaf: I've done that before now, although not to you 19:50:07 and not in this channel 19:50:25 There was some stupid long policy debate where some people tried to defend the idiotic policy that we can list the birthday because it can still be sourced from archive.org. That's obvious nonsense, because then any webpage could refuse to delete the birthday _first_ because it's still on other public webpages. 19:50:26 was trying to catch someone who was being disruptive in ##nomic 19:50:36 i vaguely remember reading about tactics like that being used on eve online to catch moles 19:51:03 Eventually after some edit war, the birthday was removed from the article (the month stayed). But it still remained in revision history on hu.wikipedia and wikidata. So I tried to get it deleted. 19:52:33 That's complicated, because by policy hiding revisions would be the job of oversighters (a privilaged user group), but hu.wikipedia doesn't have any of them, so the fallback is to ask wikimedia stewards. 19:53:00 there's two levels of hiding 19:53:03 I asked wikimedia stewards, they said it's not their job, ask wikimedia legal. I asked wikimedia legal, they told me that they'll delete if the actor asks them directly. At that point I gave that up. 19:53:11 I don't think this would warrant oversight, revision delete is surely enough for something like this? 19:54:00 maybe he means revisiondelete was lumped into the oversighters in their permissions structure? 19:54:07 the only difference is that an oversighting can't be undone by a normal admin, so it's secure against more people 19:54:27 ais523: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Oversight_policy suggests that this should be oversighted, but the details of the policy are not clear to me: 19:54:41 that global policy mentions deleting private data from userpages, not from articles 19:55:45 but this is also a legal issue, because the laws require that we scrub the personal data if the relevant person asks, and https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use says that we have to follow the laws 19:55:54 which is why the legal dept is relevant 19:56:08 aha, was wondering if laws applied to this 19:56:13 they certainly do 19:56:20 because this is in europe 19:56:22 I guess exact birthdays do count as private personal information 19:57:15 I can send a link about the discussion in private if you want, but I don't want to have that in the channel logs 19:57:32 no, I don't want it 19:57:54 it also turned out that hu.wikipedia has a local policy saying that we shouldn't list the birthdate if it's not publicly known 19:57:56 I've seen enough birthday wars already 19:57:57 but I found this rather late 19:59:12 and of course OTRS was involved too, because they're the ones who got the request from the actor, with a claim that she's really that actor 20:00:14 As long as that works for a large enough proportion of the wikis you find... you won't spend any more effort than that. If it stops working you'll start looking for common countermeasures, like easy captchas. ← there are spamming frameworks that use humans to break captchas, I know this because I've seen the same spam framework hit multiple wikis I admin where user signup worked in totally different ways 20:00:43 the whole "introduce yourself" thing was set up because the spam frameworks think "oh, I created an account, I can take over myself rather than using up the human captcha-breaker's time" 20:00:49 ais523: right, forwarding attacks for captchas 20:01:01 Wait, what? I just discovered Unicode has two code points with the same name. 20:01:08 I always thought code point names were unique. 20:01:16 b_jonas: at least one I don't think it was a forwarding attack, because the account creation process was to create an account on a different (related) site 20:01:17 shachaf: which ones? it's not "BELL" is it? 20:01:21 It's BELL. 20:01:24 I don't see how you can do that with a forwarding attack 20:01:50 ais523: yes, the forwarding is for the generic captchas 20:01:57 Oh, maybe BELL is just labeled "" and the name BELL is an alias? 20:02:26 shachaf: I think the name of the control character isn't BELL, but I don't know what it is 20:02:28 b_jonas: this is the same spammer framework that attacked esowiki 20:02:45 IMO the name of the control character is BEL with one L, but I think Unicode disagrees 20:03:03 isn't the name of the control character something like ALERT ? 20:03:30 http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2B0007 says "Name not known" 20:03:38 um no, it says "(name not known)" 20:03:47 maybe it doesn't have a name then? 20:04:04 b_jonas: I think my script extracting data from the official Unicode file took some shortcuts. 20:04:08 strange 20:04:14 ais523: They also call U+0 "NULL"! 20:05:00 ugh, now how are we going to teach people the difference between "\0" and "" and Segmentation fault (core dumped) 20:05:01 shachaf: yeah, for the full thing you have to use libicu or something, which also dynamically generates the data for the regular korean characters, because there's so many that they didn't want to list it in the source table 20:05:34 My table is also missing a bunch of CJK code points, I'm pretty sure. 20:06:09 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Components_for_Unicode says it's "an open-source project of mature C/C++ and Java libraries for Unicode support" 20:06:16 shachaf: common ones or rare ones? 20:06:34 I don't remember but I believe some common ones are missing. 20:06:38 What's that supposed to mean? Is it C or C++? 20:06:50 I'd like to have a policy of not using C++ libraries. 20:06:52 I think they're talking about what languages it binds to 20:06:58 it is probably written in the common subset of C and C++, though 20:07:03 given that description 20:07:03 shachaf: yes, and I like it because when I reported a doc feature request, they actually replied to the ticket and fixed it. 20:07:14 that's normally a ridiculous language choice but it can make sense for libraries 20:07:19 i,i the common subset of C, C++, and Java 20:07:20 developers who fix things I report always makes me much more confident about the quality of a library 20:08:10 shachaf: it has a complete interface for C++, a partial interface for C (some functionality isn't available from the C API, but the most important ones are), and something something Java, I don't follow that 20:08:12 ais523: Apparently it's written in C++ but exposes a C API. 20:08:59 harfbuzz is also written in C++, among other reasons not to use it. 20:09:25 Unfortunately there's a big reason to use it, which is that it's the only cross-platform library that exists that does the thing it does. 20:09:41 And the thing it does is poorly documented so it's quite hard to reimplement. 20:11:32 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:12:14 Maybe that's also true of ICU? 20:12:29 Golly, handling text correctly is so hard. 20:12:41 shachaf: most of the times, you don't need the parts of ICU that you can't get easier from smaller libraries 20:12:49 but for some unicode-related stuff, you do 20:12:58 there are other libraries handling some of that too, I believe 20:13:19 because eg. pango somehow knows how to break text into lines at work boundaries, and it doesn't depend on ICU 20:15:50 ais523: I know that what's going on on [[Bitch]] is a trainwreck [...] <-- I think the train has moved on to [[Volatile]]. 20:16:38 (I’m slow at puns, but do they call the DEL character DELL also?) 20:18:25 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 20:19:06 arseniiv: DEL is a weird character, its original purpose was so that you could delete characters from punched tape by punching out all the remaining holes in that column 20:19:13 (the convention being that programs would ignore DEL in their input) 20:19:33 likewise, NUL was a no-op so that you could pre-place blocks of NULs in your tape and later punch on them to insert characters 20:19:49 but then DEL started to be used as an actual character, e.g. as a representation of the Delete key on the keyboard 20:20:07 even though its original purpose means that it has no actual meaning as a terminal control code, and it should logically be treated as a NOP 20:20:30 yeah, they ignore both NUL (all bits clear) and DEL (all bits set), the latter useful to fix errors (can be done even through a teletype with tape puncher by backspacing and then punching a DEL), the former to leave empty space at the edge of paper tapes so they can be spliced more easily 20:20:31 didn’t know about Delete representation :o 20:20:41 fwiw, most terminals ignore it, which is probably the correct option 20:20:48 that DEL exists is a main advantage of 7-bit paper tape over 5-bit one 20:20:56 5-bit paper tape only has NUL 20:21:12 what coding does 5-bit tape use? the main 5-bit code is Baudot but I think it needs 00 for something else 20:21:14 (to be clear, a bit set means the hole is punched open, a bit cleared means the paper is intact) 20:21:24 ais523: baudot, yes 20:21:29 it was used for telex for a long time 20:21:46 and I don't think it needs code 0 for something else 20:21:55 it uses code 0 for NUL 20:22:19 huh, it doesn't use 0 for something else, I just checked 20:22:31 -!- adu has joined. 20:22:50 well, some versions do 20:22:53 C<00> encodes NUL, 20:22:55 there are tons of variants of baudot 20:22:59 some use it as a space 20:23:06 space is 04 20:23:20 but most don't, exactly so that you can leave empty space at the edge of paper tape 20:23:25 (sorry about the leading zeroes, I tend to write Baudot in base 6 out of habit) 20:24:09 telex machines can transmit and receive much faster than a single operator can type on the keyboard, so for stations that send lots of messages, people punch paper tapes on separate keyboards, and just feed it to the fast tape reader of the telex machine 20:24:10 hm also it seems a pun about DEL was more of a punch 20:24:50 a machine with keyboard and paper punch but without the modem is a significantly cheaper than the full telex machine 20:25:02 arseniiv: (groan) 20:25:31 ais523: base SIX? 20:25:33 what 20:26:10 base 8 I could understand 20:26:13 b_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/7 has twelve commands, but only eight of them have names, and only six of them are easy to put in a literal 20:26:35 it uses Baudot as its main encoding for "string constants" but it's a variant that only uses the digits 0-5 because 6 and 7 and the four unnamed commands are a pain to use 20:26:47 so most of the actual Baudot writing I do nowadays is done in base 6 20:28:00 b_jonas: (groan) => hehe thanks I knew it would be a quality content 20:29:01 or, I should say: 6, 7, and the four unnamed commands aren't bad to use, it's just mixing them with 0-5 that's awkward 20:29:06 so literals tend to use one set or the other 20:29:26 * ais523 vaguely wonders why they didn't name the unnamed commands as 8, 9, 10, and 11, there's an obvious order for them 20:30:32 ais523: I see 20:31:49 I guess I forgot about the baudot encoding part of that esolang 20:32:16 with my current codegolf.stackexchange account, my two highest-scoring posts are both posts in 7 that just print string literals 20:33:13 both had [tag:restricted-source] restrictions related to digits, which was part of the insipiration for using 7 in the first place 20:38:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:58:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:03:23 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:03:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:17:10 I suppose an implementation can use numbers 8 9 10 11 for the unnamed commands, which is not exposed to the program. 21:17:32 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:17:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:25:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:42:29 consider placing N points on a sphere such that the sum of all pairwise (Euclidean) distances between them is maximal; for N = 7 numerical optimization gives a somewhat strange arrangement: two opposite points and a “wobbly pentagon” orthogonal to that diameter 21:43:48 also either it’s a flaw of Mathematica 8 or the solution for N = 20 is not an icosahedron (two quadruplets of points are close to being squares) 21:44:45 also it’s obvious in retrospect but I was surprised N = 8 gives no cube, but a square antiprism 21:45:51 arseniiv: you'll have to ask chemistry people about that problem for small N 21:45:57 these results may be suboptimal, I’ve used standard NMaximize function for that 21:46:24 it's perhaps not quite equivalent to the natural problem in chemistry, but similar enough 21:48:04 b_jonas: yeah, I heard about it, there should be an equivalent “a potential field and some charges” formulation 21:48:47 also I’ve seen a link today regarding IIRC N = 5 21:49:12 an article which I didn’t read, but they say it’s nontrivial 21:50:22 with a proof of optimality of the triangle bipyramid arrangement 21:51:16 found it: https://arxiv.org/abs/0906.0937 21:52:00 You can find the JSON of a c2 wiki page by appending the page name to http://c2.com/wiki/remodel/pages/ in case you want to write your own parser for it and do not want to use theirs. 21:52:12 ( chemical N = 5 also: https://arxiv.org/abs/1001.3702 ) 22:12:55 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:14:53 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 22:18:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:37:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:38:12 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62737&oldid=62731 * JonoCode9374 * (+49) /* Python Interpreter */ Added ability to output as characters 22:54:51 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:07:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:09:26 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:12:51 -!- tromp has joined. 23:17:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:32:16 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62738&oldid=62735 * Unlimiter * (+30) /* In-depth */ 23:33:09 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62739&oldid=62738 * Unlimiter * (+3) /* In-depth */ 23:34:11 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62740&oldid=62739 * Unlimiter * (+3) 23:36:53 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62741&oldid=62740 * Unlimiter * (+13) /* In-depth */ 23:39:24 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62742&oldid=62741 * Unlimiter * (+0) /* Countdown */ 23:39:42 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62743&oldid=62742 * Unlimiter * (+17) /* Counting up */ 23:50:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2019-05-27: 00:28:07 -!- unlimiter has joined. 00:28:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:28:41 Hello 00:30:19 [[Point]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62744&oldid=62743 * Unlimiter * (+9) 00:31:46 Hello 00:32:18 I hope the esolang community grows in the future 00:32:27 and more people create esolangs 00:32:47 Yes, and if you have a idea of esolangs then you can do it too 00:33:11 Did you make any esolangs 00:33:19 or just designed one 00:34:16 I had a idea I mentioned on this IRC perhaps a week ago I don't remember exactly when, and I should put it into the esolang wiki too 00:34:30 good luck 00:35:34 Are you A? 00:35:45 A? 00:35:48 A? 00:36:02 I'm U 00:36:19 I'm making a meta lang 00:36:25 is that esoteric enough? 00:37:01 wait until i understand what a meta lang is... 00:37:07 Well, let's see what you make, anyways 00:37:14 alright 00:37:20 did you post it on the wiki? 00:38:48 me? 00:39:42 yes 00:40:02 oh, you didn't finish it yet 00:40:37 wanna see the AST? 00:40:38 https://ghostbin.com/paste/hm4k4 00:40:49 funny enough, I don't actually have a syntax yet 00:41:38 interesting... you could make the syntax quickly 00:41:43 I could never decide between (@var x 2) and var $ x = 2 00:42:05 haha, creation clusters 00:42:27 (@var x 2) looks unfamiliar 00:42:40 @defn f(x) = x + 1 00:42:42 Defined. 00:42:52 holy shit my language already exists 00:42:58 f(5) 00:43:04 hahahaha 00:43:20 lambdabot? 00:43:25 defn $f(x) = x + 1 00:43:45 +1 to the first one 00:44:14 but both of them distinguish between names and keywords, whihc is a good style 00:44:23 anyways a fundamental goal was to make elseif really easy 00:44:34 how? 00:44:51 I spent a lot of time trying to combine trinary and if-elif-else 00:45:02 I wrote it all down somewhere 00:45:19 I think lambdabot will run Haskell codes, not yours 00:45:32 @defn g(x) = x + 1 00:45:34 Defined. 00:45:37 wth 00:45:48 basically, there are bindings, declarations, and applications 00:45:51 (Although what you wrote, I think happens to be valid in Haskell too) 00:45:56 wait, haskell doesn't have @ðefn 00:46:06 the scope of bindings's variables is within the body 00:46:18 the scope of declarations' variables is unlimited 00:46:25 like lua 00:46:34 and applications can't introduce any variables 00:46:41 like every language 00:46:55 it started as a compilation target for every language 00:46:58 in lua, every undeclared variable returns nil 00:47:30 Here's my esolang btw, it's very sensitive, don't touch it hardly: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Point 00:47:45 I think I finally came to the conclusion that there really isn't any difference between statements and applications unless you start thinking Haskellish 00:48:15 people who work the haskell way are rare 00:48:44 i mean think 00:49:46 also, I started creating an instruction set 00:49:59 do i smell assembly? 00:50:02 that would fill in the places after decls/ bindings/funcs 00:50:17 so in MathML there are only bindings and functions, no declarations 00:50:24 I sometimes use assembly language, for a few different kind of computers/VMs 00:50:25 my language is essentially MathML + declarations 00:50:33 alright 00:51:08 the "instruction set" of MathML is stuff like plus, times, differentiald, binomial, and amillion other things that MathML3 people thought should be in there 00:51:25 Here is my instruction set: 00:51:27 http://andydude.github.io/drosera-cdbase/dscdbase/cd/prog2.xhtml 00:52:12 pretty rich 00:52:40 for reference, this is the MathML related standard: https://www.openmath.org/cd/prog1.html 00:53:05 it basically does a terrible job of representing computation 00:53:14 if you want to make your interpreter/compiler code-golfed, i suggest that you leave just the fundamental instructions 00:53:40 what's code golf 00:53:57 making code as short as possible 00:54:03 oh, like J? 00:54:56 yes 00:55:06 Brainfuck is on the list too 00:55:27 people also put an eye on RAM usage 00:55:38 the lower usage, the better 00:56:13 the lower the* usage 00:56:24 [[User:Zzo38/Untitled 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62745 * Zzo38 * (+1247) Created page with "This programming language consists of: * Zero or more inputs, which are natural numbers * Zero or more registers, each of which has a fixed maximum (defined by the program), a..." 00:57:49 Now you can see what I wrote: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Untitled_2 00:58:12 zzo38: what do you mean by input? 00:58:28 do MMIX and EBC constitute esolangs? 00:59:04 I've never heard of them 00:59:19 adu: Maybe it constitutes "quasi-esolangs". (I know MMIX, but not EBC) 00:59:24 they're technically assembly languages 00:59:47 unlimiter: It is an input to the program. 00:59:48 EBC is EFI ByteCode 00:59:57 O, that is what it is. 01:00:15 zzo38: you mean like, from stdin? 01:00:39 supposedly to increase the chances of portable, universal drivers for everything so you never have to port a driver or write a driver more than once, and so far as I know, it has been used... never 01:00:52 unlimiter: It depends on the implementation, because my specification does not specify where the input comes from, but yes it can, if the inputs have an order you could put one number on each line for example. 01:01:06 alright 01:01:11 -!- tromp has joined. 01:01:17 (It could also be considered like a function, rather than standard I/O, could be another way) 01:04:15 adu: Have you used MMIX or EBC? I used MMIX. 01:04:35 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: chocolate!). 01:04:35 I have written a ton of MMIX, I have only heard of EBC 01:05:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:07:26 I don't think an opensource EBC assembler exists 01:07:36 pretty sure the only implementation is intel-cc 01:08:19 Have you used 6502 assembly language and Glulx assembly language? 01:38:00 no 02:28:48 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 02:28:53 -!- Frater_EST has left. 02:37:07 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:39:03 Do you know why in the All The Tropes, the anti-heroes goes from I to V but the anti-villains goes only from I to IV and not V? 02:42:25 what's an anti-villain 02:49:15 -!- tromp has joined. 02:53:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:30:26 what's an anti-hero 03:32:25 what's an anti-histamine 03:55:44 It is described in the All The Tropes, I think, what is anti-villain and anti-hero. 03:56:47 [[Keg]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62746&oldid=61763 * A * (+230) /* Computational class */ 03:59:11 -!- A__ has joined. 04:00:44 Poking my head in here-is Volatile's instruction set minimal, or can it be minimized? 04:00:46 -!- A__ has quit (Client Quit). 04:01:49 A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well. 04:03:37 (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.) 04:08:31 -!- A__ has joined. 04:08:54 A__ isn't happy with just spamming the channel through wiki edits, they have to spam it with text as well. 04:09:04 (The message isn't off-topic but joining the channel, posting one thing, and immediately quitting is spamming behavior.) 04:09:16 wat 04:09:17 I agree on both counts. 04:11:04 shachaf: fortunately I have time to post messages here. Sorry for immediately quitting... 04:16:00 [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62747&oldid=62737 * A * (+255) /* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */ 04:17:15 -!- A__ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 04:18:42 int-e: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate. 04:21:59 -!- A__ has joined. 04:22:10 shachaf: Now you can even get a phone with a 90Hz refresh rate. 04:22:41 A__: Please stop pasting what people say into the channel like that. It's quite rude. 04:27:19 -!- A__ has left. 04:34:33 [[Talk:Along and Across]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62748&oldid=55361 * Zzo38 * (+338) 04:37:43 -!- tromp has joined. 04:42:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:35:14 . o O ( A__ntagonize ) 05:42:48 -!- tromp has joined. 05:47:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:02:18 [[Sticks and Stones]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+4754) low-level physical computation model idea, probably incomplete 06:04:47 [[Talk:Volatile]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62750&oldid=62727 * JonoCode9374 * (+579) /* Reducing the Command Set */ new section 06:07:12 -!- Usera has joined. 06:07:35 -!- Usera has quit (Client Quit). 06:16:59 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 06:27:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 06:35:19 -!- esowiki_ has joined. 06:36:06 . o O ( O__ntaganize ) 06:36:41 -!- tromp has joined. 06:36:42 -!- esowiki_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:41:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:41:35 -!- A__ntagonize has joined. 06:41:44 -!- A__ntagonize has left. 06:45:00 A__dapt, I__mprovide, O__vercome 06:45:02 *s 06:45:39 -!- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa has joined. 06:45:42 -!- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa has quit (Client Quit). 06:47:04 Oh you can try to impersonate people and bots on IRC, who'd have thought! 06:47:27 -!- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa has joined. 06:47:27 -!- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa has quit (Client Quit). 06:48:04 Still, there is the address can be seen; the last octet seems to be changing a bit but the rest of the address is same as before 06:48:19 -!- A__ has joined. 06:48:32 The maximum nickname length is 16 characters. 06:48:35 -!- A__ has left. 06:48:36 zzo38: Ah but I filter those, too noisy in general. 06:48:59 A__nswering all the important questions. 06:58:31 -!- tromp has joined. 06:59:35 olsner: whoalsner 06:59:54 I'd prefer to be able to execve my C programs. 07:00:24 make a binfmt module that looks for C code 07:00:29 Hmm. Maybe I could define a magic number on my system. 07:00:30 Right, that. 07:01:03 Which is kind of funny, but actually not too bad. 07:01:28 I'd have a binfmt like "//BUILDFLAGS" and include all the cc flags to pass when building a program. 07:01:31 Which is useful anyway. 07:02:43 The first line of my C programs have "#if 0" (and then the second line is gcc), so if you do that too, then you can use that, perhaps. 07:02:48 whoa, I have all sorts of weird binfmts already. 07:03:02 Like 330d0d0a for python3 07:05:32 Oh, this already exists: https://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/software/binfmtc.html.en 07:08:13 Hmm. Maybe I should just use binfmt to replace #! entirely with something more reasonable. 07:08:53 Is there the possibility to emulate other operating systems and instruction sets if executing a ELF program that specifies those systems (if you have a emulator installed)? 07:10:58 WINE has a binfmt_misc format for executing Windows .exe files. 07:12:00 Does Mono also have one? 07:13:02 Yes. 07:13:07 I don't know what you do if you want both. 07:18:06 This is great. 07:18:17 `ls /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc 07:18:18 ls: cannot access '/proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc': No such file or directory 07:18:22 `ls /proc 07:18:23 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 18 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 5 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cmdline \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpagecount \ kpageflags \ loadavg \ locks \ meminfo \ misc \ mounts \ net \ pagetypeinfo \ partitions \ self \ slabinfo \ softirqs \ stat \ swaps \ 07:32:59 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 07:39:11 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 07:39:11 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62751&oldid=62511 * Int-e * (+5377) /* A Turing machine */ New section. 07:40:02 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62752&oldid=62751 * Int-e * (-947) /* Computational class */ update and shorten section 07:43:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62753&oldid=62720 * Int-e * (-3684) /* Sketch: A Turing Machine */ replace contents by reference 07:45:05 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62754&oldid=62752 * Int-e * (+0) /* Computational class */ cosmetics 08:09:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62755&oldid=62753 * Int-e * (+314) /* Sketch: A RAM Machine */ this has moved partially... 08:16:20 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:25:32 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 08:44:35 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 08:45:46 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62756&oldid=62754 * Salpynx * (-16) Update category for TC (I miss the BSM with limited unbounded ability) 09:09:51 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:10:18 int-e: I still don't know how broken Typeable is right now. 09:10:39 As far as I an tell MD5 is not known to be broken enough to construct Typeable collisions. 09:10:46 But that's mostly an accident. 09:11:15 Yeah, same here. A generic 2^64 attack is feasible in principle, of course. 09:11:53 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:11:58 That's true. 09:12:03 I wonder how expensive it would be. 09:12:17 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 09:12:34 too expensive for me :) 09:14:51 https://gist.github.com/epixoip/a83d38f412b4737e99bbef804a270c40 claims 200e9 MD5/s onn 8 GPUs 09:14:54 s/nn/n/ 09:15:16 Presumably fairly recent GPUs because it's a recent paste. 09:15:27 > logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60 09:15:29 49.35499023497802 09:15:53 18e18 is a *lot*. 09:16:22 It is. 09:16:36 > logBase 2 $ 200e9*60*60*24*1000 09:16:39 63.90573702036127 09:16:50 So if you ran 1000 of those systems for day that would be pretty close. 09:16:59 OTOH, BTC is doing 50e18 SHA1 hashes per second. 09:17:29 SHA2? 09:18:09 And that's currently worth about $100k per 10 minutes. 09:18:40 Oh, but we only need 1 second. 09:18:48 So if one could harness that kind of power for MD5 at a similar price that would come to about $50 :) 09:19:01 That's pretty cheap. 09:19:12 But presumably that's amortizing the cost of ASICs and so on. 09:19:20 That's ASIC, cheap electricity, and a huge fixed cost. 09:20:46 hmm, right, which hash... 09:21:03 Yeah SHA-256. My bad. 09:21:19 Also are those single or double hashes? 09:21:31 Not that it makes a big difference, really. 09:22:18 Single I suppose because hash rate is how people sell devices? I don't know. 09:22:26 BTC is an annoying curiosity to me, mostly. 09:22:35 Of course. 09:22:47 My hash function is so powerful that it's not only preimage-resistant but also image-resistant. 09:22:59 (More than annoying because all that electricity is being wasted.) 09:23:10 shachaf: see argon2 ;-) 09:23:31 I was just thinking maybe key derivation functions qualify. 09:23:50 Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that the whole cryptocurrency currency thing is a net negative. 09:24:46 One thing that's good about it is that it reminds me that even if a lot of people are really into something and think it'll change the world and so on, it might still be nonsense. 09:27:15 Anyway brute-force of 2^64 hashes is clearly feasible for any entity that's really serious about it. 09:27:27 But it seems a little too expensive to say "I told you so". 09:33:20 I've been trying to understand differential paths for MD5 for that reason. But progress is slow, and it's not a priority. 09:35:18 2^50 hashes would be quite feasible. 09:35:43 But I don't know how realistic that is, with all those fixed zero bits. 09:36:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:36:23 I looked at some papers about MD5 collisions and some algorithms and they all seem very complicated. 09:37:33 what annoys me is how so many papers start with "we use the following differential path" and never explain where that ingredient comes from. 09:38:55 (They hardly explain what a differential path is.) 09:39:16 Golly. So many things to learn. 09:40:10 But once you have that out of the way, the methods rely on computing a huge part of the message from "necessary conditions" before the "point of verification". So that fails when most of the message bits are fixed. 09:41:24 I remember something like that. You figure out some intermediate state and then see what bits of the hashed text must be to produce it. 09:41:48 Er, the text that is to be hashed, not the hash. 09:51:02 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:55:14 -!- Vorpal has joined. 09:58:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:10:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:14:19 Do you like SAT solvers? 10:14:20 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:17:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:25:57 not always 10:26:23 Do you like SAT solver algorithms? 10:28:37 There must be a "conflicted" pun in here. 10:29:11 (from *C*DCL) 10:29:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62757&oldid=62755 * A * (-379) 10:29:40 Do you like "2-watched literal"? 10:30:14 One fancy thing about it is that when you backtrack you don't need to undo any state. 10:30:52 I know. 10:31:06 Do you know other backtracking algorithms like that? 10:32:39 hmm? this is part of the unit (generally constraint) propagation, not of the backtracking/backjumping. 10:33:10 I mean: Other backtracking algorithms that keep track of state that explicitly doesn't need to be rewound. 10:36:40 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.92.705 is worth a look... it just drops constraints during backtrack/backjump, but keeps all other changes to the tableux. 10:36:45 tableau 10:38:32 Do you know how well fancy SAT solvers do at exact cover compared to dancing links? 10:39:15 no 10:39:50 Hmm, that paper looks interesting, I should read it. 10:46:08 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62758&oldid=62508 * A * (+12) bitch is TC 10:47:13 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:47:29 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:47:29 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 10:47:29 -!- Vorpal has joined. 10:48:15 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:50:03 -!- aloril__ has joined. 10:50:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:50:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 10:50:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:52:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:54:12 adu: unclear, but I argue on the wiki that MMIX is an esolang 11:01:15 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62759&oldid=62736 * A * (+46) 11:02:32 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62760&oldid=62759 * A * (+68) 11:13:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:14:42 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62761&oldid=62760 * A * (-114) 11:16:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:20:23 -!- FraterEST has joined. 11:20:33 -!- FraterEST has left. 11:27:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 11:38:44 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62762&oldid=62761 * A * (+79) I will undo this edit later. 11:38:55 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62763&oldid=62762 * A * (-79) Undo revision 62762 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 11:51:38 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 11:56:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:57:24 -!- MDead has joined. 11:59:36 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:59:39 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 12:09:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 12:10:47 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Salpynx * uploaded "[[File:Truth-machine.svg.png]]" 12:28:08 [[Sticks and Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62765&oldid=62749 * Salpynx * (+1341) Add example Truth-machine using provisional notation 12:30:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine). 12:31:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 12:49:11 [[Steps]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62766 * A * (+143) Created page with "[[Steps]] is an [[esoteric programming language]]. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2019]] [[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Category:Non-textual]]" 12:52:35 [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62767&oldid=62766 * A * (+455) 12:57:41 [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62768&oldid=62767 * A * (+450) 12:57:55 [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62769&oldid=62768 * A * (+17) /* Commands demonstrations */ 12:59:54 [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62770&oldid=62769 * A * (+229) /* Commands demonstrations */ : Go on and fix another section of the page. 13:04:28 [[Steps]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62771&oldid=62770 * A * (+212) 13:17:04 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62772&oldid=62763 * A * (+7172) 13:17:48 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62773&oldid=62772 * A * (-7172) Replaced content with "{{lowercase}}" 13:21:36 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62774&oldid=62773 * A * (+6953) 13:25:36 -!- salpynx has joined. 13:31:48 here's hoping https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User:A&oldid=62772 is enough for a troll-ban. Mocking my recent non-textual lang with the troll-page Steps probably isn't enough by itself, but fingers crossed, I'm looking fwd to a quieter wiki tomorrow! 13:32:42 -!- unlimiter has joined. 13:36:33 I don't even ... latest talk page has the removal request discussion. 13:43:47 * salpynx fumes silently.... breath deeply and don't feed the troll 13:45:32 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: ...). 13:45:42 salpynx: Sticks and Stones looks pretty neat 13:47:07 Taneb: thanks! I've been trying to think of something physical as computation for some time, and this just occurred to me today. 13:48:13 It's a really cool idea! I'm at work right now so I can't look at it too closely but I'm going to go into more detail when I'm free 13:48:49 I keep wavering as to whether I think it is TC as is or not, I'll need play with it a bit and get a feel for what it can do. 13:52:01 Taneb: I look forward to hearing your thoughts! 13:52:07 :) 13:54:49 I need to get to some sleep, and I'll leave on a good note, thanks :) 13:55:10 -!- salpynx has quit. 14:00:07 [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User:A]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa 14:00:07 [[Special:Log/move]] move * A * moved [[User talk:A]] to [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]: ahahahahhahahhahaa 14:00:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:00:26 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62779&oldid=62776 * A * (-274) Blanked the page 14:05:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:08:00 -!- singingbanana has joined. 14:12:26 [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62780&oldid=62778 * A * (-279) Blanked the page 14:13:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:18:20 [[Sticks and Stones]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62781&oldid=62765 * A * (+8) /* IO */ : Interesting. Though "No I/O" does not apply to "many" Turing tarpits; I think it applies to most of them. 14:20:46 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62782&oldid=62780 * Arseniiv * (+223) meh 14:22:31 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62783&oldid=62782 * A * (-223) Blanked the page 14:22:43 [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62784&oldid=62779 * A * (+141) 14:24:04 okay, *this* is either some psychiatric phenomenon or a clear sign of toxicity 14:24:23 yeah A dump this one on your dumb too :P 14:24:49 ah! I deleted the wrong word! it’s a dramaa 14:25:10 what a foolish time investment 14:25:35 [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62785&oldid=62519 * A * (+24) Add Sticks and Stones (Note that I made Steps independently of Sticks and Stones.) 14:25:36 Please don't feed the animals or knock on the glass. 14:28:09 okay 14:29:13 should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523? 14:30:18 this situation with A is a total shame :( 14:30:19 -!- singingbanana has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:34:48 Well it should be one of the wiki admins who can properly delete pages and/or revisions. Everything else is pointless. 14:35:14 and ban users 14:35:47 yeah, maybe at this stage usual revertion mechanism is useless 14:36:11 This is a pity. I feel like there's half a sensible person in A, but it's being dominated by a troll. 14:36:18 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:36:25 maybe 14:37:13 And I really really hope they're 13 and will grow out of this. 14:37:55 I even considered to add a thing about definition of `mod` in the discussion of some lang yesterday, where they were testing (or ❝testing❞) how to write it in terms of arithmetic ops and floored division 14:38:00 int-e: totally 14:39:14 (that’s why I tried to ask a honest question earlier. But here we are, in the land of denial) 14:39:39 (on their page, I mean) 14:42:23 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62786&oldid=62757 * Helen * (+325) /* [Disproven] Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ Yes you can edit it [[User:Salpynx|@Salpynx]]. Have fun! 14:42:23 arseniiv: I saw that actually, and I thought that it's hard to ask such a question in a way that cannot be construed as offensive :) 14:43:45 int-e: agree. Some topics are really tricky when talking to a stranger 14:53:21 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62787&oldid=62756 * Helen * (+0) Case fix: Accumulator-based -> accumulator-based (Sorry it was really bothering me) 14:56:41 typical developer machine: svn: command not found 14:57:18 That's true on any machine I have access to that I know of 14:58:21 oh well it's easy enough to install :) 14:58:53 but I have had this computer for 19 months now and never needed subversion. 14:59:36 . o O ( what a weird SCM. They call 'clone' 'checkout' ;-) ) 15:02:01 Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ 15:03:06 (it's the \if (foo) \ {\ code;\ } style where braces get their own indentation level) 15:04:04 I've always thought that it's incredibly ugly. 15:11:40 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:11:46 oh wow 15:11:55 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62788&oldid=62786 * Helen * (+148) . 15:12:41 Oh does anybody actually like the GNU indentation style? :-/ => nice question! I was wondering when read about it too 15:13:15 is it known how it appeared? 15:14:14 just seen on Gil Kalai's blog: Hedetniemi's conjecture about the chromatic number of direct product of graphs is disproved: https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2019/05/10/sansation-in-the-morning-news-yaroslav-shitov-counterexamples-to-hedetniemis-conjecture/ 15:14:58 result is from this month 15:15:57 before reading: . o O ( Is this another tera-byte sized SAT-based proof? ) 15:16:38 int-e: no. short proof by Yaroslav Shitov. 15:17:59 which means I'll have to read it 15:18:19 Yeah I see. There's a reason why I wrote "before reading" there. This is the kind of thing that sometimes happens these days but I'm not unhappy to be wrong :) 15:19:11 BTW is there a nontrivial esolang on musical themes? Maybe something about classical harmony (which I don’t understand but it seems a definite enough system to base things on) 15:19:20 (and chromatic numbers are the right flavor of combinatorial property for SAT solving to be applicable in principle, of course) 15:22:26 Can someone briefly explain a chromatic number to a distracted Taneb? 15:23:41 Taneb: do you want the elementary version or the category theory version? 15:23:57 wob_jonas: whichever 15:24:08 Both in succession, maybe? 15:24:12 Yeah, it's worth to understand both. 15:24:21 elementary = graph theoretic? 15:24:50 wow I’m in for category theory version too 15:25:05 So we consider simple graphs, which are objects made of a finite set of vertices and a finite set of edges, where each edge must be a set of two vertices. 15:25:37 We say that two vertices are neighbors in a graph if one of the edges of the graph is the set of those two vertices. 15:26:00 Sometimes vertices are drawn as funny pictures with the vertices as dots, and the edges as lines connecting the two dots containing them. 15:26:08 s/times vertices/sometimes graphs/ 15:27:33 Now a coloring (or sometimes proper coloring) of a graph is a function from the vertices to a set (set of colors) such that for each edge, the two vertices in that edge (called the endpoints of that edge) are mapped to different values (colors) by this function. 15:28:26 The chromatic number of a graph is the minimal number such that there's a coloring of that graph with that many colors, that is, a coloring whose range has that many elements. 15:29:19 And this is always 1 <= chromatic number <= |vertices| ? 15:29:26 Any graph has a coloring with as many coloring as it has vertices, because the identity function works. But usually we're interested in colorings with smaller set of colors. 15:29:37 ...unless there's zero vertices I guess 15:29:45 Taneb: yes, the chromatic number of a graph with no vertices is 0 15:30:32 Finding the chromatic number is considered an interesting problem, and there are tons of more fancy theorems about it, such as the famous or infamous four color theorem which says that the chromatic number of a planar graph is at most 4, 15:30:35 (zero, hm) 15:31:19 there's a quick algorithm to tell if a graph can be colored by 1 or 2 colors, but it's NP-complete to tell whether it can be colored by 3 colors (or any other number larger than 2), 15:31:59 A graph can be 1-coloured if and only if there's no edges? 15:32:55 Taneb: yes 15:33:04 anyway, there are a lot of theorems and conjectures about this stuff 15:33:21 And one of them is Hedetniemi's conjecture, recently disproved 15:33:25 I guess for two colours you can just... give it a go, because once you've assigned a vertex a colour your hand is forced 15:33:52 For that one, you have to know what the categorical product (or tensor product or direct product) of two graphs is, which is another graph. 15:34:04 ah bipartite graphs :) 15:34:37 wob_jonas: how do you tell "chromatic number" and "chormatic index" apart? 15:34:50 int-e: they're totally different things 15:35:04 I know but how do you remember which one is which? 15:35:23 int-e: dunno, I'm a mathematician and researched graph theory, I just know 15:37:14 I don't have a mnemonic 15:38:25 If you have a graph with vertex set V_0 and edge set E_0, and a secnd graph with vertex set V_1 and edge set E_1, then their categorical product is defined as a graph whose vertex set is the cartesian product V_0 × V_1, and the edge set is the set of {(u_0,u_1),(v_0,v_1)} such that {u_0,v_0} in E_0 and {u_1,v_1} in E_1. 15:39:44 Now an interesting thing about the categorical product is that if you have a coloring p of the first graph, then it's trivial to find a coloring p' of the product graph with the same set of colors: just make p'((v_0,v_1)) := p(v_0) 15:40:15 This means that the chromatic number of a categorical product graph is at most the min of the chromatic number of its two factors. 15:40:53 The Hedetniemi conjecture stated that there's always an equality here, you can't find a better coloring for a categorical product graph than you get from this. 15:41:04 And this conjecture is now apparently disproved. 15:41:19 (also sorry about that zero remark, it’s perfectly consistent with the definition, I had a misplaced association with degree of a polynomial that time) 15:42:07 A graph is called complete if all possible edges are in it, that is, if {u,v} is in the edge set of every two different vertices u and v. 15:42:42 The chromatic number of a complete graph is equal to its number of vertices, because you must color any two vertexes a different color, so any coloring needs at least as many colors as vertices. 15:42:55 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:47:00 Taneb: makes sense so far? If so, I'll tell the category theoretical view. 15:47:21 Yeah, I understand so far 15:48:59 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:48:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 15:48:59 -!- Vorpal has joined. 15:49:43 Now if we have two graphs (V_0,E_0) and (V_1,E_1), then we say that a function p is a homomorphism from the first graph to the second if it's a function from V_0 to V_1 and for every {u,v} in E_0, {p(u),p(v)} is in E_1. 15:50:50 We can use this to define what we call the category of graphs, in which the objects are each graph, and the morphisms are a graph homomorphism considered together with the two graphs it goes between. 15:52:33 An injective graph homomorphism is called a graph isomorphism, which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms. 15:52:40 no wait, that's wrong 15:53:02 An injective graph homomorphism whose inverse function is also a graph homomorpism is called a graph isomorpism, 15:53:06 which is important in the sense that questions of graph theory usually care about graphs only up to isomorphisms. 15:53:16 But that's not too important here. 15:53:51 Does that work out to be an isomorphism in the usual category theory sense? 15:53:54 What is important is that a graph coloring with a set of colors is exactly a homomorpism from the graph to the complete graph on the set of colors (that is, the set of colors is the set of vertices of the graph). 15:54:24 Taneb: I'm not sure, I don't really know category theory, so I don't know what counts as an isomorpihsm in the usual category theory sense... let me look that up. 15:55:02 Taneb: yes, it does 15:55:32 Right 15:56:01 Now the categorical product of graphs is called that because it turns out that it's exactly the product in the category theory sense in the category of graphs. 15:57:10 This means that for any two graphs G_0 and G_1, there's a homomorphism f: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_0, and a homomorphism g: (G_0 x G_1) -> G_1, plus one other property 15:58:14 If you have a coloring p: G_0 -> K_n where K_n is a complete graph on n colors, then you can compose the above morphism f with p, and you get a coloring of the product graph with n colors. 15:58:58 So we get the weak Hetedniemi statement for free 15:59:12 Yes, that part is trivial either way. 15:59:31 ...yes 15:59:46 (I see it clearer in the category theory notation because I've got more practice with that, I gues) 16:00:10 Right, this is #esoteric, which is why I thought it was worth to know the category theoretic view. 16:00:31 I've got Categories for the Working Mathematician sat on my desk ;P 16:00:48 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:00:59 Now there are other graph coloring questions in the broader sense that ask when there is a homomorphism from one graph to another. 16:01:55 For this, only the homomorphism type of a graph matters, where the homomorphism type of a graph G is the set of graphs H such that there's both a G -> H homomorphism and a H -> G homomorpism. 16:02:29 The homomorphism types form a sort of equivalence classes broader than the isomorphism types. 16:02:53 There are graphs that have homomorphisms to each other but aren't isomorphic, because one of them has more vertices than the other. 16:03:08 Can you give an example? 16:03:30 Oh, like the graph of a single vertex and the graph of two disconnected vertices? 16:03:31 The smallest example is an empty graph on one vertices and an empty graph on two vertices. 16:04:05 A more interesting example is a graph with two vertices and an edge between them, and a graph with four vertices and four edges going around them in a cycle (a cycle graph on four vertices). 16:04:18 Oh, and the vertices are sometimes called "nodes" too. 16:04:52 But it's worth to know (and not too hard to prove) that any isomorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism, we can consider that graph the representative of that homomorphism class. 16:05:22 In the above cases, the graph with two vertices and no edge, and the graph with two vertices and one edge are such smallest representatives. 16:05:31 Do you mean any homomorphism class? 16:05:42 Yes, darn it 16:05:50 Any homorphism class has a smallest graph in it up to isomorphism 16:06:35 It's also worth to know that there are three special homomorphism classes in some sense: that of the graph with no vertices, that of the graphs with no edges, and that of 2-colorable graphs (including the one with only one edge). 16:06:58 These three homomorphism classes sit on the bottom of the partially ordered set of homomorphism classes, 16:07:34 in the sense that if a graph has a homomorphism from it to one of these classes, then that graph definitely falls into one of those homomorphism classes. 16:07:47 But these are the only simple ones, because there's no one next bigger class. 16:08:03 Above that the partial ordered set of homomorphism classes gets sort of dense. 16:08:48 In particular, you can take odd cycle graphs, which are graphs on an odd number of vertexes, with as many edges as they have vertexes, the edges connecting them cyclically. 16:09:26 There's a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 3-cycle but not backwards, a homomorphism from the 5-cycle to the 7-cycle but not backwards, one from the 7-cycle to the 9-cycle but not backwards, etc. 16:09:58 And there's a homomorphism from any of those cycles to the homomorphism class of 2-colorable graphs, which by the way includes any cycle graph on an _even_ number of points. 16:11:04 So there's a chain that goes 2-colorable < 3-cycle < 5-cycle < 7-cycle... 16:11:10 yes 16:11:14 no 16:11:16 that's backwards 16:11:20 You're right 16:11:51 no vertexes < empty (no edges) < 2-colorable < ... < 7-cycle < 5-cycle < 3-cycle = 3-complete < 4-complete < 5-complete < ... 16:12:03 but those are just a few classes, there are much more, and they're not completely ordered 16:12:51 Can you give an example of two incomparable homomorphism types? 16:14:18 that's a good question, I'm not sure what a small example is, and it probably needs over a dozen vertices or something 16:14:32 I'm not sure what's the simplest example 16:14:51 I'll have to leave for an hour or two now, but I can answer later I think 16:15:04 a reference book about this topic is Pavol Hell, Jaroslav Nesetril, ''Graphs and Homomorphisms'' 16:15:39 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:16:19 Don't worry about the example 16:16:53 wob_jonas: an interesting introduction btw 16:17:05 That was an enjoyable explanation! Thank you wob_jonas 16:17:25 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:24:25 -!- unlimiter has joined. 16:32:01 -!- unlimiter has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.4). 16:43:45 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62789&oldid=62788 * Helen * (+7232) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Proof completed. Feel free to review! 16:44:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62790&oldid=62789 * Helen * (+16) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ Fixed timestamp 17:07:36 -!- b_jonas has joined. 17:07:41 Taneb: I thought about your question. 17:08:27 The simplest examples for two grpahs with no homomorphism among them in either direction is the K_3 complete graph on three vertices (3-cycle, triangle) with the M_4 Micielsky graph, which has 11 vertices and 20 edges. 17:09:58 The vertex set of the latter is {0,1,2,3,4,0',1',2',3',4',I} and the edge set is {{0,1},{0,1'},{0',1}, {1,2},{1,2'},{1',2}, {2,3},{2,3'},{2',3}, {3,4},{3,4'},{3',4}, {4,0},{4,0'},{4',0}, {0',I},{1',I},{2',I},{3',I},{4',I}}. 17:10:29 The smallest example is probably K_3 with the KG_{2/5} Kneser graph, the latter has 10 vertices and 15 edges, but it's likely harder to understand why that works. 17:10:40 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:28 -!- adu has joined. 17:20:00 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 17:33:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:59:49 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62791&oldid=62787 * Int-e * (+291) /* ROT13 */ 18:01:45 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62792&oldid=62791 * Int-e * (+0) /* ROT13 */ fix link 18:05:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:05:49 (No big deal, but I managed to save rather than preview there... hmpf.) 18:11:32 s/Micielsky graph/Mycielsky graph/ 18:11:59 https://www.redbubble.com/de/people/arunsundibob/works/12126978-stress-reduction-kit?p=kids-clothes i don't think this is an apropriate potive for clothing 18:13:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:27:10 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62793&oldid=62792 * Helen * (+2118) Added the [[bitch#Unclear|Unclear]] section to help with clarifying the article; Fixed general formatting and grammar. 18:28:15 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62794&oldid=62793 * Int-e * (-4) /* ROT13 */ golfing 18:43:03 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62795&oldid=62794 * Int-e * (-29) /* More Bitwise Operations */ fix typo; clarify 18:44:12 [[Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62796&oldid=62795 * Int-e * (-136) /* Unclear */ that was a typo. I'll leave the section for now in case something else turns up 18:59:13 -!- Hooloovo0 has joined. 19:03:18 -!- pushpoppeekbop has quit (Quit: Bye!). 19:03:42 -!- moony has joined. 19:05:08 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:05:40 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 19:10:18 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62797&oldid=62796 * Int-e * (-9) /* Finishing touches */ 
 disables the '' markup.
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20:25:51  b_jonas: thank you for graph example from me too
20:32:14  b_jonas: am I intuit right that homomorphisms (and h. classes) of directed graph are way more disciplined?
20:32:40  s/graph/graphs
20:33:26  there at least would be no morphisms from a cycle to nonisomorphic cycle, except corner cases
20:35:08  C_(2n+1) → C_(2n−1) for undirected graphs slightly surprised me even after I sat and thought how it worked
20:47:17  arseniiv: I don't know what "more disciplined" means, but you can get graphs and graph homomorphisms as a special case of digraphs and digraph homomorphisms, because if you only consider symmetric digraphs (ones that have the reverse of every arc as an arc) then they behave like a grpah, and any graph can be represented as such a digraph
20:56:55  hey
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20:58:47  b_jonas: ah I forgot about symmetric digraph
20:59:49  rain1: hello
21:01:12  what about permutive programming languages?
21:01:25  a language where shuffling the source code effects no change
21:01:51  and dont just put the line number before each line
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21:23:38  rain1: BTW I thought about a language where you specify a figure (something amorphous, not like in Piet or fungeoids) and its geometry, or topology, should somewhat give a program. Hadn’t came up with anything concrete, though :(
21:25:48  though TC cellular automata may be considered as a realization of this idea. Maybe one should require that the source figure be connected
21:27:02  (hm yes, I think it definitely should be connected. But it can have holes if it’s more than 2D)
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21:30:09  if it’s more than 2D => hm, why, it can have holes in this case too
21:31:14  rain1: re. shuffling source, string and graph rewriting langs like Thue and Eodermdrome have rules that don't have to be listed in order.
21:32:43   I was trying to write an Eodermdrome program to generate random numbers, but all the existing interpreters chose the first listed rule when there are multiple choices. My solution was to run my code through linux's shuf to mix up the non-deterministic parts
21:33:18  if we have a 2D figure, its boundary is a curve, and I did see an esolang there that interprets turns of a curve, though IIRC, not a closed one, but it shouldn’t be an issue, though then it would be simply a reformulation of that esolang’s idea
21:33:39 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
21:36:15  oh, but Thue has two sections which must be kept in order. Re-writing rules in general give you a way to shuffle without needing line numbers
21:43:15  mhm, about specifically a shuffle-proof *esoteric* language, one can encode the normal code string using counts of different characters or words. E. g. from a final code, take list of all (space-delimited) words in it, sort them lexicographically, and take occurence count of each one to be the code of a character (in some encoding), resulting in a code in a certain other language. But this idea looks sort of too plain-remixy
21:44:03  s/resulting in a code/resulting in a source
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21:58:23  rain1: re programs where you're allowed to shuffle the source code, recent discussion about that at https://esolangs.org/logs/2019-04-01.html#lrb
22:21:37  heh, I've talked about that Eodermdrome idea here before. I should just finish writing it
22:26:15  hm one could try to make a language where each line describes a “molecule” (and in notation maybe akin to SMILES) and these molecules can “react”, resulting in new ones, according to set rules. I see indeterministic (in general) reactions between pairs of these molecules, some having side effects. Again this idea is too vague in this form
22:30:01  I think for this idea there would be no point to stick to usual matter conservation, so the number of “atoms” of specific sort could well change in a reaction, and it would be great if the only state of the program is the pool of those molecular graphs, but it could be unsuitable
22:32:15  something like this was quite possibly already described
22:54:13  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62798&oldid=62790 * Helen * (+16) /* Random access cell-based memory */ Changed name to be more descriptive and less wrong
22:57:42  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62799&oldid=62798 * Helen * (+28) Fixed other incorrect, relevant mentions of tape
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23:24:46  *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos
23:25:04  [[Sticks and Stones]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62800&oldid=62781 * Salpynx * (+629) /* Examples */ Hello World, and basic interpreter to see it work, in case you don't live near a suitable wood and prefer computation to be done for you by computers
23:38:23  orin: is it in ProtoIE?

2019-05-28:

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00:33:38  orin: *gʷíh₃womos seems to be "we live"? 1st thematic pl. of gʷih₃wós , and the first word is .... something about stealing juice? He steals juice that we might live? Sounds Biblical.
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03:53:37  [[Special:Log/newusers]] create  * ZachAttrax *  New user account
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04:01:27  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62801&oldid=62799 * A * (+7) 
04:09:22  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62802&oldid=62797 * A * (+115) Another significant proof was ignored
04:18:42  [[User:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62803&oldid=62784 * A * (+77) 
05:27:33  [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62804&oldid=62747 * JonoCode9374 * (+18) /* Infinite loop */
05:32:48  [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62805&oldid=62804 * JonoCode9374 * (-3) /* (Another) Python 3 interpreter */ Fixed the bug where it would always come up saying 'empty stack'
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08:35:16  [[Volatile]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62806&oldid=62805 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Undo revision 62805 by [[Special:Contributions/JonoCode9374|JonoCode9374]] ([[User talk:JonoCode9374|talk]]) dup'ing an empty stack is supposed to error. not a bug.
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11:59:01  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62807&oldid=62802 * Int-e * (+29) update links to new repo name
12:00:36  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62808&oldid=62801 * Int-e * (-2) update links
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12:11:29  Ah, Leela (Chess Zero) is now officially the one-eyed leading the blind... it convincingly beat Stockfish in the TCEC final with a +7 score in 100 games.
12:13:16  (Though the zero is no longer quite accurate; as I understand it, Leela is incorporating tablebase endgame knowledge somehow. The keyword is "tablebase rescoring".)
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12:22:27  whoa, python's struct.pack puts endianness modifiers before the type marker in the pack template, whereas perl puts it after.
12:26:05  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62809&oldid=62726 * Unlimiter * (+12) /* P */
12:26:57  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62810&oldid=62809 * Unlimiter * (-12) /* P */
12:27:32  [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[User:A]]": using user page history to disrupt the wiki and attack people
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12:27:38  [[Language list]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62811&oldid=62810 * Unlimiter * (+12) /* P */
12:28:35  [[Special:Log/protect]] protect  * Ais523 *  protected "[[User:A [create=sysop] (indefinite)]]": this userpage was being used for disruption / as an attack page rather than for any beneficial purposes, thus salting
12:29:15  [[Special:Log/delete]] delete  * Ais523 *  deleted "[[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]]": now being used primarily as an attack page
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12:37:50  [[Point]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62812&oldid=62744 * Unlimiter * (-4) 
12:38:27   should we leave revertion of that edit to salpynx’s page to ais523? ← a) don't revert edits just because of who makes them, b) feel free to revert edits because of their content or because you disagree with them, c) if someone is persistently acting in an obnoxious way (making attack pages, etc.) it will probably need admin involvement to stop them, but for things that don't need admin involvement you can fix them yourself
12:38:38  [[Point]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62813&oldid=62812 * Unlimiter * (+31) 
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12:41:14  if User:A has been attacking pages in a widespread or systematic way, I can do a total or partial block, but short of that, any edits to pages created by other users should be treated on a case-by-case basis (the creator of a page doesn't have /control/ of it; but if you disagree with the meaning or style of someone else's edit, you can revert it regardless of who made the page, unless it causes a revert war)
12:41:54  or, I guess the policy is "for small-scale problems, you can try to fix them yourself, if it becomes a large-scale problem or there's a disagreement with two people reverting back and forth, ask for admin help"
12:42:33  [[Bit**]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=62814 * A * (+19) Redirect bit** to bitch to prevent people from offensing others
12:43:39  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62815&oldid=62807 * A * (+15) I don't want the redirect to be forgotten...
12:45:04  [[Bitch]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62816&oldid=62815 * Ais523 * (-15) Undo revision 62815 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): in the vast majority of circumstances, there is no point on linking a redirect back to the page you're currently on, and this is not an exception
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12:47:29  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62817&oldid=62816 * A * (+92) Okay. Clarify
12:58:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
12:59:09  [[Talk:Bitch]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62818&oldid=62808 * Int-e * (+1418) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ revive a comment, and add a few more
12:59:45  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62819&oldid=62818 * Int-e * (+0) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */ (probably) correct indices
13:03:27  [[Volatile]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62820&oldid=62806 * A * (-47) /* Infinite loop */
13:05:15  `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(8))
13:05:16  62
13:05:24  `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))
13:05:25  443
13:05:55  those numbers don't match what my python says. does that mean I have a fake python?
13:07:11  "The count returned is generally one higher than you might expect" ;-)
13:07:35  clearly by induction the function should return infinity.
13:08:42  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62821&oldid=62817 * A * (+7) /* Computational class */ : Uh huh, so that was currently invalid. I will uncomment it if [[User:Helen|@Helen]] successfully proved that.
13:09:02  admittedly it's a different version of python
13:09:19  `python3 -cimport sys; print(sys.version)
13:09:20  3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39)  \ [GCC 6.3.0 20170516]
13:09:25  [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62822&oldid=62821 * A * (+0) /* Computational class */ : Sorry, I covered a matching bracket
13:09:32  but anyway, no. openat(AT_FDCWD, "/usr/lib/python3.7/__pycache__/sitecustomize.cpython-37.pyc", O_RDONLY|O_CLOEXEC) = 3
13:09:50  so I bet it depends on the python packages that are installed.
13:10:47  python2 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 394; python3 '-cimport sys; print(sys.getrefcount(0))' => 246 is what I have here atm.
13:13:40  [[Talk:Bitch]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62823&oldid=62819 * A * (+7) /* Memory equivalence */ : Wow, it is really cool putting the signature into code snippets! (I will remove that though)
13:21:56  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62824&oldid=62823 * Int-e * (+0) /* Memory equivalence */ move  to intended place (sorry for missing that in the first place!)
13:25:07  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62825&oldid=62824 * A * (+212) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
13:27:00  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62826&oldid=62825 * A * (-46) /* [Complete] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen */
13:27:56  [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62827&oldid=62826 * A * (-167) Undo revision 62826 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]): No, that was wrong!
13:41:15  That Bytemark link at the bottle of the esolang wiki leads to a dead page
13:43:27  bottle :)
13:44:19  Hmm, fizzie's Bytemark's esolang contact?
14:11:26  I had an impression N ⋊_ϕ H ≅ (N ⋊_id im ϕ) × ker ϕ (group theory) but now I think it’s wrong
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14:19:06  [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62828&oldid=62783 * A * (+1727) 
14:19:19  [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62829&oldid=62828 * A * (+17) 
14:19:31  [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=62830&oldid=62829 * A * (-1744) Blanked the page
14:21:54  tada
14:26:04  [[Special:Log/move]] move  * A *  moved [[User talk:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]] to [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfa
14:46:22  `? ninja
14:46:24  ninja? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:46:25  `? samurai
14:46:26  samurai? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:46:32  `? pirate
14:46:33  Pirates are humourously nautical persons. Their grammar is friendly and plural.
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15:34:37  [[Special:Log/move]] move  * Ais523 *  moved [[User:A/asdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfadsfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdfa]] to [[User talk:A]]: user talk pages shouldn't be move
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15:35:40  err, esowiki, are you OK?
15:37:01  this clearly is too much drama for the bots.
15:37:24  it's not even drama really, that'd require multiple people on each side of the argument
15:37:48  it's just someone being disruptive and me gradually turning their permissions lower and lower in response to them demonstrating that they can't be trusted to use them correctly
15:38:06  . o O ( Shakespeare made a lot of drama all by himself. )
15:39:10  Now they overflowed the bot's buffer.
15:40:18  it's annoying because I normally use the bot to monitor esowiki's recent changes (often via the logs), now I have to check them directly
15:40:56  like at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges ?
15:41:06  the funny thing is that I actually missed that A's user talk page had gotten renamed (as I was concentrating on the userpage rename), then A's further screwing about made it obvious what had happened and so I could fix it
15:41:07  wob_jonas: yes
15:41:29  being able to read #esoteric and the recent changes at the same time saves on pages to open, also the stalker-mode logs update automatically
15:42:15  Did you see the bit where they joined the channel, pasted criticisms of themselves from the logs into it, and then quit?
15:42:43  imo what's the deal
15:43:04  they're trying to be passive-agressive but aren't very good at it
15:44:34  hm
15:44:37  they could be a good user if they stopped trying to test the boundaries of what's allowed and stopped intentionally antagonising people…
15:44:51  (and stopped jumping to conclusions about computational class0
15:44:53  s/0/)/
15:45:02  if you're going to be a complete jerk you could at least be witty about it or something
15:45:24  that would be a fair deal
15:45:36  . o O ( and we all know how that goes )
15:45:57  Do we?
15:52:07  ... and counts too
15:52:35  python's struct.unpack takes the count and endianness modifier before the type letter in the pattern
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16:50:25  We're in HEXHAM. So exotic. One could even say, esoteric.
16:50:53  `? hexham
16:50:54  Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico.
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16:52:44  fizzie: help
16:52:47  what are you doing
16:53:18  you're breaking everything
16:53:36  fizzie: esowiki the bot is down
16:54:05  also the bytemark link in the footer is a 404
16:54:37  also, did you go to hexham because #esoteric or did you somehow go there for an unrelated reason?
16:56:08  A bit from column A, a bit from column B. We're mostly driving around Northumberland, but staying a night in Hexham was #esoteric-motivated.
16:56:26  Not sure what's wrong with the bot though.
16:56:35  OK, because if it were coincidence, I'm not sure I could deal with it :-D
16:56:59  the bot may have had a buffer overflow? User:A created a page with a ridiculously long name and the bot crashed when I tried to clean up after it
16:58:09  Is fizzie the only person in this channel in Hexham?
16:58:42  we used to have multiple channel regulars in Hexham, which was an absurd coincidence beause it has a population of ~12000
16:59:26  It's supposed to just cut long messages. But there could be an bug.
16:59:46  i cant believe IOCCC is done
16:59:50  it feels too soon
17:00:05  has it really been a year since last IOCCC
17:00:37  even taking the birthday paradox into account, you wouldn't a channel of 85 people to have two unrelated regulars living in the same small town
17:04:13  The bot had indeed died of SIGSEGV. Sounds buggy.
17:05:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:05:56  Trying to restart it makes it die of the same thing.
17:06:17  I don't think I'll get this fixed before dinner. Will have a look later.
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18:13:33  fizzie: is the channel log collecting process down?
18:14:31  for the logs at esolang.org 
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18:16:44  *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
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18:18:52  b_jonas: apparently, it must be esowiki who's collecting the logs because they stopped when it segfaulted
18:26:22  ais523: oh, there could be a connection
18:31:01  ah I see, fizzie already knows about the problem
18:31:08  (jsut checked the logs at tunes)
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18:47:15  the advancement of solid state is amazing. when I was a child, little girls had shoes with red leds built into the side of their soles, flashing red at every step they took. now little girls have shoes with multi-colored leds built into them, which can flash in various colors including blue. 
18:48:22  if one of those were transported back in time, the little girl who wore them would be an envy of all their classmates
18:48:37  s/an envy/the envy/
18:49:02  b_jonas: :D
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18:53:09  blue leds and blue lasers, totally magical
18:53:52  yeah
18:54:08  I remember when blue LEDs were expensive and so they were a mark of high quality equipment
18:54:18  then they became cheap and now every cheap shit from china is covered in unreasonably bright blue LEDs
18:54:34  perhaps "high quality" is the wrong word but "expensive" anyway. think early 00s Sony
18:55:04  in the past I had a computer case with a blue LED and I had to put a resistor in series to dim it
18:55:52  b_jonas: what's also pretty cool is that you can buy RGB (or RGBW) leds like WS2812 in a standard 5050 package that have a controller chip on-board, so you can build a whole string of them and control them all individually with one data line
18:56:39  this has made projects with many LEDs tremendously less of a pain in the ass and has lead to a boom in the amount of Burning Man style blinky LED art (we have some of that in public areas in SF, it's pretty cool)
18:56:48  in Seoul it seemed every skyscraper was covered in RGB LEDs
18:57:12  soles and seoul
18:57:36  kmc: what's the protocol like? two power, one data? two power, one data, one clock? one power, one data?
18:58:08  jade plate, six eight
18:58:18  `? cheese
18:58:19  ais523: power, ground and async serial (meaning it has precise timing requirements)
18:58:19  cheese? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:58:43  IIRC even RS-232 can be driven without a clock
18:58:53  I can't remember offhand how many pins are actually necessary, but it isn't very many
18:58:54  https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/datasheets/WS2812.pdf
18:59:03  ais523: RS-232 is *always* async
18:59:07  the way it works is to send small bursts of clock signals in between the data so that the receiver can resync
18:59:11  well, ok
18:59:27  that's still async in my book, but with a method for one side to derive the clock
18:59:39  but you can't arbitrarily change the timing between any two bits like you can with SPI
18:59:47  might be called pleisiosynchronous
18:59:59  another way to do that is Manchester encoding
19:00:06  I have used that for a project with a single unidirectional data line
19:00:14  kmc: I have a sheet of paper over the blue led of my voltage spike filtering electric socket thingy that is always on because the computer and the router are plugged into it
19:00:29  the WS2812 has built in PWM control with 8 bits x 3 or 4 channels of dimming
19:00:49  this means a full framebuffer is actually outside the RAM capacity of many microcontrollers, depending of course on how many LEDs you have
19:01:16  I need to do something with the WS2812 rolls I bought last year..
19:01:22  wow, the protocol given there is bizarre
19:01:29  hold times are different for 0 bits and 1 bits
19:01:38  yeah, it seems a bit funky
19:01:38  yeah *shrug*
19:01:43  it's wacky
19:01:46  but you can get libraries for most platforms
19:01:56  you can even drive it from Raspberry Pi, taking advantage of the built in PWM and DMA hardware
19:02:44  1-Wire seems to also have fixed timing
19:03:25  a few cool things about 1-wire: a) each device has a unique 64-bit ID  b) you can have arbitrarily many on the same bus, limited only by electrical characteristics
19:03:31  my guess is that the protocol simplifies the circuitry in the decoder somehow
19:03:36  c) you can multiplex power and data onto the same line if desired
19:03:39  yes, RS-232 uses a data line where a byte can be delayed by any amount of time, but within the byte, the bits are placed at fixed time offsets after the leading edge of the byte
19:03:59  yes
19:04:04  same with RS-485 and RS-422
19:04:10  but you need hardware that can interpret data with flexible timing anyway to read disks or casettes
19:04:18  and they've had those ages ago
19:04:23  which are pretty much the same "link layer" on top of a different hardware layer (full or half duplex differential signalling)
19:04:34  so it's not too surprising that it's done on communication lines like ethernet in modern hardware
19:05:16  yeah
19:05:22  you can expect an ethernet device to have a precise clock
19:05:25  RS-232 is simpler because it uses fixed times for the bits rather than flexible times
19:05:31  not so much for a tiny cheap micro running off an internal RC oscillator
19:05:45  I mean, obviously there's some tolerance because the sending side holds each bit for a short time,
19:05:52  but it's not adaptive to different speeds 
19:06:00  whereas the casette and disk need to be
19:07:12  I have also seen designs for combining RS-232/485 and power on the same wires
19:08:02  by applying a DC offset, and AC-coupling the data at the other end, while drawing power through a series inductor
19:08:12  what surprises me is the "power over ethernet" protocol. the power goes through two separate wires that are in addition to the four for normal ethernet. that's not the surprising part. the surprising part is that they send an immense amount of power through thin wires and tiny connectors.
19:08:46  b_jonas: that's why it uses 48 volts
19:09:05  so that it's only about an amp per conductor
19:09:12  but still seems like a lot, yeah
19:09:18  most telecom stuff uses 48V
19:09:27  as well as server racks that do DC power with in the rack
19:09:32  some people have claimed to demonstrate devices doing impossible things, e.g. producing more output than the power they're given as input, it's suspected that the results were faked via putting a DC offset on the live wire (which an AC-measuring voltmeter wouldn't see)
19:09:45  mm
19:09:54  a lot of RF amplifiers are powered through a DC offset on either the input or the output
19:09:56  but sure, in general there's an obvious trend for connectors to use fewer and fewer wires 
19:10:50  you see it in USB, SD cards, SIM cards
19:12:08  fuck the WS2812 though
19:12:22  it has obnoxiously slow pwm and I can see the pwm artifacts
19:12:55  b_jonas: PoE uses the center taps of the transformer
19:13:24  it *can* use the spare pairs if it’s a 10/100 device... but there are no spare pairs with gigabit Ethernet
19:13:30  HDMI and Displayport have fewer wires than DVI too
19:14:41  j4cbo: from the side of your eyes, or even when looking directly at it?
19:14:48  s/eyes/vision/
19:15:04  only when moving my eyes
19:15:09  ah yes
19:15:44  apa102 are much better, and have an easier protocol (basically just regular spi) too
19:16:59  Blargh. It just immediately segfaults in std::thread::detach by jumping to 0. I think this isn't going to be something I can feasibly fix over the phone.
19:17:23  Won't be back home until next weekend though.
19:17:52  ouch
19:18:07  I'll backfill the logs later, but it's going to stay down for now. :/
19:18:24  thanks for trying though
19:18:27  PoE is so good
19:19:09  https://goo.gl/photos/vT8E1EMwJc16TFfHA
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20:32:49  I would prefer having more wires if it reduces latency
20:33:00  specifically for video connectors
20:33:57  more wires normally improves throughput rather than latency
20:34:08  although it depends on the protocl
20:34:09  *protocol
20:34:19  there will be a small latency improvement but typically only one words' worth
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20:34:54  ais523: I was thinking the improvement would be by having less muxing
20:35:48  hmm, I guess it depends on how much of the throughput is actually used in common circumstances
20:36:00  I'm assuming that all of it would be, but you'd get an improvement if the throughput is mostly not used
20:36:25  as it allows you to use your additional throughput to save latency if you've been idle for a while and suddenly have to send messages to a lot of sources at once
20:36:31  err, destinations, not sources
20:37:25  also, at a practical level, these thinner wires and smaller connecters are flimsy
20:38:16  micro-displayport or whatever it's called
20:39:23  I never had a video connector fray before
21:13:55  `? bruce lee
21:13:56  bruce lee? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:13:58  `? bruce Lee
21:13:59  bruce Lee? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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22:48:14  In my understanding, a delimited continuation could be stored as two continuations - the point where the delimited continuation starts, and the point where it returns to its invoker.
22:48:45  Can a delimited continuation be delimited, then, by two continuations that are themselves delimited? Does this make sense? (I'm not asking anyone, I'm just putting an idea forward.)
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23:16:48  Can you do constant-time sorts better than a sorting network with some kind of non-comparison sort?
23:17:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
23:19:15  what is there, besides radix sort (which is obviously not an option) and comparison-based sorts (or min/max sort, if you want to have fixed control flow)?
23:20:30  I don't know!
23:20:53  You can implement constant-time min/max using clever bitwise tricks if you don't have an instruction for them.
23:21:05  Maybe something like that can extend to more than two elements?
23:21:45  I guess bogosort can be implemented in a side-channel free fashion ;-).
23:22:59  Is there any instruction set that has a min+max instruction?
23:29:25  I don't know.
23:30:26  intel has vectorized min and max (separately) at least.
23:31:51  Yes.
23:31:56  And I guess having a combined instruction would be hard for them... because otherwise, the architecture never has more than a single output register.
23:32:24  So it's likely that even if there was a combined min/max instruction it would become 2 microops.
23:32:52  (for all I know, which is not too much)
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23:57:00  fungot: I have a suspicion that the esolangs.org/logs are not updating, what are your thoughts?
23:57:00  salpynx: " fnord department for, well, one of nature's born fnord. why, hadn't he? to bes pelargic the empire's only proper seaport.
23:58:29  It's true. The bot crashed on that long wiki page rename.

2019-05-29:

00:02:06  right, I thought it may have been a natural pause in the drama, but clearly not.
00:02:35  Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying.
00:02:42  `owrjan
00:02:43  Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His arkup-nemesis is mediawiki's default diff. He twice punned without noticing it.
00:06:59  I'm mainly interested is there was any more info on the cryptic Proto IE quote from Orin. Anything else that happened around that time is probably better lost
00:07:23  s/is there/if there/
00:08:35  fungot: do you like PIE?
00:08:35  salpynx: ' but he looks the spit and fnord' people makin' cracks about bananas.' they'll say: the least we can do for him?'
00:09:01  PIE is fine but dynamic linking is not so good.
00:12:20  PIE is overloaded (I had to look that one up). 
00:12:39  pooch-independent executable
00:17:05  salpynx: *sokʷh₂yóteh₂ti *gʷíh₃womos : We live in a society in PIE
00:20:34  orin: nice, I got "we live". Couldn't find the roots of the first word, and was pretty sure my best guess of "Juice-thief" was incorrect (unless "society" = juice-sapping in PIE?)
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00:34:27  Found it: *sokʷ-yo- companion vs. *sokʷos juice/resin. I won't make that mistake again!
00:34:37  Hi
00:35:44  (I have nothing to say here, so I will quit now.)
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00:45:57  is something wrong with the logs?
00:46:37  oerjan: yes, they have not been updating since the long page move msg
00:48:28  sheesh
00:53:49 * oerjan merges with tunes logs
00:55:39  curiously, tunes doesn't have the very last line in the other logs, i guess the bot logged it but crashed before actually saying it.
00:58:05   Oh, that means oerjan can't read what we're saying. <-- DON'T BET ON IT
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02:32:21  oerjan: tunes?
02:32:29  like the operating system?
02:42:11  adu: yes, although just because it's on the same site, see topic
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03:51:04  I have devised an idea of a sorting algorithm - I decided to call it "Got a match?", but there could be better names for this.
03:51:20  Here is a glance of the algorithm of that algorithm:
03:52:39  (in natural language) : While the modified state does not equal to the current state: \
03:53:16      Put the leftmost element in the unsorted list of elements after the rightmost matching number
03:53:34      Delete the leftmost unborted element
03:53:59  If the end of the list of elements is less than the beginning of that list:
03:54:13      Reverse-cat the whole list of elements
03:55:10  And that is it. This algorithm has certain limitations (i.e. it does not support sorting a list of elements where all elements are unique.)
03:55:43  I will put a working demonstration of this algorithm here:
03:56:26  Task: Sort 123123 -> 231123 -> 311223 -> 112233
03:56:51  The end of the list is larger than the beginning of the list, so the algorithm ends.
03:58:01  (This algorithm is inspired by the desire to not comparing elements of the list every time and to not waste too much space for that algorithm.)
03:58:37  You may be confused of the last part of the algorithm: why do we need to reverse-cat the list of elements sometimes?
03:58:53  Well, an example clears up the confusion:
04:00:03  (This example is complex; please don't mind) 32321321321 -> 23213213321 -> 32132133221 ->
04:00:53  21321333221 -> 13213332221 -> 32133322211 -> 21333322211 ->
04:01:19  13333222211 ->  33332222111
04:01:53  13333222211 ->  33332222111 (And see, it is in reversed order. Then you would have to reverse cat that string in order to sort correctly.)
04:02:41  I am done; any questions? (And I apoligize for using up too much space for it.)
04:06:14  I have nothing to do here. fungot
04:06:14  A__: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
04:06:26  Fungot
04:06:45  fungot: " the deacon is far away. i am a stranger in a familiar script:
04:06:46  A__: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
04:07:00  fungot: " just as you go along to the study of time so wholeheartedly that, for the appropriate moment to descend, and thought about cigar smoke and flowing drink and fnord voices never ever gave cushy numbers to the likes of us any more... it chokes us to death with her own umbrella.
04:07:00  A__: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
04:07:15  fungot: " er. what's bodacious mean?" asked granny. " gytha meant well, i, fnord' the faces of many of the things that had been tossed aside on to the roof of the city's kings, all haughty stance and imperious haircut. in fact, since the pyramids took up so much, is...
04:07:15  A__: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
04:07:26  fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
04:07:44  Hey, fungot: ' intended to be a blob of swallow's vomit?' said
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04:08:58  You need to stop doing the thing where you paste the text other people write.
04:09:40  Did you see what I just wrote(presenting an algorithm)?
04:10:21  I saw it but I didn't read it.
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09:39:23  @tell oerjan oh no, now things may be going horribly right in the long term
09:39:23  Consider it noted.
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09:41:08  `5
09:41:10  1/2:1178)  kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions. \ 787)  and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns \ 558)  Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 498)  now that we've cleared that u
09:41:14  `n
09:41:15  2/2:p let us hug fungot =   elliott_: let's not start that again." \ 608)  ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
09:41:37  fungot: hug?
09:41:38  shachaf: ' he wath my only friend!' she snapped, " never mind about my son," said carrot doggedly, " i thought that's what we always used to say the verruca gnome.
09:41:50  ^style
09:41:50  Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
09:42:00  ^style speeches
09:42:00  Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
09:42:07  fungot is upon us
09:42:08  shachaf: " a refutation of his whole argument? paley says, indeed, will appear beneath their dignity. the temerity of adventurers was much justified by the ill order of every state, which is always very near to it in display of gaiety, splendour, and which the disastrous events of the war against jacobinism, louis the fourteenth brittany had its states; burgundy had its states; and yet there is no such criterion, it must be raw
09:42:18  `5
09:42:20  1/2:1087)  I prefer goat memory. I feel it's more reliable, like a vinyl over a CD. \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures]  I need to learn more Haskell...   ..I need to get op privs. \ 1222)  when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap?   yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore?   apparently
09:42:23  `n
09:42:23  2/2:not santa claus   Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 695)  elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world \ 722)  is tswett Warrigal?
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09:52:30  Oh does that mean that we have our own global warming theory... namely, Santa Claus died?
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09:52:49  that's not really the same language, is it?
09:54:51  wob_jonas: are you talking about the obfuscated tiny C dialects?
09:55:15  I haven't looked at it in detail, but if it's a different language (and not an obvious derivative of the original) it should be discussed on a different page
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10:01:28  ais523: yes
10:01:58  they're two somewhat unrelated implementations
10:02:47  the older one is a bytecode interpreter that has some builtin functions; the newer one is bellard's compiler which "cheats" by linking symbols in from libc
10:03:24  The older one calls itself OC = obfuscated C. Not sure where I stand on this.
10:05:12  also the older one uses the trick where the interpreter is written in C, but the compiler from C to the bytecode that that interpreter understands is written in the bytecode, though not in a cheating way, because both are contained in the size limit
10:05:47 * int-e idly wonders about the copyright status of that BNF, and the licensing situation of IOCCC (especially early years).
10:06:12  ah no, I'm wrong
10:06:15  the compiler is written in C too
10:06:43  int-e: the licensing situation is quite clear: whoever submits the entry keeps all the rights
10:06:51  wob_jonas: it's written in C but the bytecode optimizer and compressor required to make everything fit isn't included
10:07:31  int-e: hmm,ok
10:11:40  I should probably make some kind of toy compiler, though not a tiny golfed one, at some point, just for the heck of learning
10:11:58  and potentially teaching, if I document it properly
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10:15:07  can you recommend a good text teaching how to make a register allocator for a compiler to a real-world ugly CISC architecture?
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10:41:14  `? 299792458
10:41:15  299792458? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:47:45  What's that, another C variant?
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15:59:18  anyone have thoughts on this?: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Quadratic_sync_problem
15:59:58  it's one of the simplest problems I've found that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete (another example of a simple problem that isn't obviously Turing-incomplete is "does this recurrence relation ever reach 0?", but I think that one's less likely to be, not that either are particularly likely to be)
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16:30:35  ais523: relevant keyword: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell%27s_equation
16:31:10  hmm, that's not exactly the same, but it's pretty similar
16:32:31  even something simple like the negative Pell equation doesn't have a known solution technique
16:37:50  https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/conwaysens.pdf
16:37:57  can this be applied in any way? I dont know
16:46:33  oh these are 2 single variable quadratic forms
16:46:40  but that is f or binary quadratic form
16:47:44  since the constants are non-negative I think you can bound x andy 
16:47:48  and then check finitely many values
16:48:10  Pquadratic residuosity problem has no known efficient solutions
16:48:12  >
16:48:27  wel it's efficient to know if a solution exists (using legendre symbol), but not to find it?
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17:36:19  rain1: the symbol doesn't always tell you if a solution exists
17:36:55  it can tell you that it doesn't exist, but the legendre symbol's only defined for prime modulus, and the jacoby symbol is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient condition
17:37:33  oh shit i didn't know that
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18:32:49  `olist 1165
18:32:50  olist 1165: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:23:01  ais523: not a direct answer, but see https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/14124/8067 , especially the second paragraph of the question
19:25:18  "The problem can be equivalently stated as follows: given b,c∈N, determine whether the quadratic x²+by−c=0 has a solution x,y∈N." …but isn't that literally quadratic residuosity?
19:26:24  ais523: you asked for Turing-complete or at least possibly so, I don't think that gives any such problem
19:26:25  ah no: x²+by-c=0 <=> x²=-by+c, quadratic residuosity is x²=by+c
19:26:45  this question is about NP problems
19:26:47  and given that b and y are both constrained to be be non-negative the sign flip actually makes a difference
19:27:00  b_jonas: yes, but quadratic residuosity being NP-complete would be a major result
19:30:43  or, hmm, /does/ the sign flip make a difference?
19:31:27  if c>b² it doesn't
19:31:42  I won't help you thinking about this now, that's just a question I had come across earlier today
19:32:02  s/tion/tion post/
19:32:19  if it's lower then it's a reduction of the "find the root" part of quadratic residuosity to a decision problem, but a different reduction from the normal one
19:36:09  if I'm not misunderstanding something, this seems like it might be major news for the crypto community (although possibly not; they care about average-case complexity, NP-completeness results normally focus on the worst case)
19:41:54  is factoring expected to be NP-complete?
19:41:56  i don't think it si
19:42:18  which makes this quadratic thing being NP-complete strange, because square roots mod N is usually seen as equivalent in difficulty to factoring N
19:42:20  it's expected to be NP-incomplete, although nobody actually knows what class it's in atm
19:42:55  rain1: decision-problem quadratic residuosity can be solved in P-time via a factoring oracle, yes
19:43:21  going the other way, a find-a-square-root algorithm can factor in P-time if you have a random number generator
19:43:40  err, randomized P-time, there's always a chance your RNG doesn't cooperate
19:45:39  https://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2019/04/x-3-y-3-z-3-33-has-solution-in-z-and.html
19:45:45  this is unrelated but fun
19:52:02  https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1396122/please-help-understand-how-ax2by-c-0-is-np-complete
19:52:12  subset sum encoded into 2 variable quadratic diophantine
19:53:49  the use of subset sum makes me think that the signs are significant
19:54:38  yeah
19:54:42  > the NP-complete SUBSET-SUM problem can be considered as a LINEAR DIOPHANTNE EQUATION, when you restrict your solution over positive integers. If you allow also negative solutions then it is solvable in polynomial time
19:54:44   :1:85: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:59:25  I think it's very likely that the problem you posted is NP-complete
19:59:37  maybe it's a superset of another problem already shown NP-complete
19:59:43  /only/ NP-complete?
19:59:54  oh...
19:59:58  I think it's likely to be NP-hard but am not convinced it's solvable in NP
20:00:48  it can express "sign-flipped quadratic residuosity", thus must by the discussion above be at least NP-hard
20:01:27  i see
20:04:30  I had no idea that such a simple diophantine equation was NP complete
20:04:41  i read about the hilbert 10 stuff and they need lots of variables
20:06:15  or, hmm, no, I'm not sure it /can/ express the sign flip
20:06:54  because now one side is increasing and the other decreasing, which prevents the simple implementation method I was hoping for working
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22:55:32  @ask zzo38 Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
22:55:32  Consider it noted.
22:56:23  is that an x86 instruction
22:57:08  AVX-512
22:58:12  I just came across this post. Is it written by zzo38? https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010
23:01:00  it's a fused multiply and add, what's not to like ;-)
23:01:33  It's easy to like GF2P8AFFINEQB, but what about GF2P8AFFINEINVQB?
23:03:00  Hmm I guess what's not to like is that b is an immediate.
23:05:14  WTFISTHATQM
23:06:36  And  for that other one, the hard-coded GF(2^8).
23:09:41  vbroadcastf128 [ds:esi+ecx*2+0x12345678]
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23:12:42  median a b c = atMost (max a b) . atLeast (min a b) $ c
23:12:50  Do you like this?
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23:30:30  AVX512
23:30:40  aka "let's make the decoder even more of a disaster"
23:32:19  i like the idea
23:32:25  but they extended the ISA a bit *too* much
23:33:35  I guess median of 5 is a sort of important function because you need it for the linear-time median algorithm.
23:33:50  But not actually important because that algorithm isn't actually useful?
23:34:06  Apparently you can do it with 6 comparisons.
23:35:00  i imagine that with the amount of transistors they put toward AVX512's sheer number of instructions, they probably could've, say, added more op-fusion possibilities instead
23:35:30  oplax monoidal fusion
23:36:21  Moony's wishlist: add each individual lane of SIMD registers to the scoreboard as it's own register
23:38:15  dont ask why
23:38:35  because my reasoning is on the "how the hell would that be viable" end of things
23:42:45  Also, the fact that a particular AVX2 only CPU (You know which one) completely plastered the i9-9920X lately, i think AVX512 may have been a bad move on intel's part
23:45:17  shachaf: wait what's the difference between atMost and min?
23:46:53  int-e: atMost = min
23:47:18  clamp lo hi = atLeast lo . atMost hi
23:48:03  synonyms are confusing
23:48:16  Are they?
23:48:21  I like the name atMost for min.
23:48:29  seems v. clear
23:48:52  they suggest that there's a difference
23:49:04  to me at least, in programming
23:49:18  atMost (atLeast a b) . atLeast (atMost a b)
23:49:26  That's confusing.
23:49:34  But so is min (max a b) . max (min a b)
23:49:45  nah, that one is just fine.
23:49:57  I think it's confusing that if you want to bound something below, you write max.
23:50:04  I always have to think about which way to do it.
23:50:10  ah but I'm used to that
23:50:12  Whereas with a name like atLeast it's obvious.
23:54:02  what's confusing is that (a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) should be symmetric in a, b, c.
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2019-05-30:

00:05:35  (a \/ b) /\ ((a /\ b) \/ c) = (a \/ b) /\ ((a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a \/ b) /\ (c \/ b)) = (a \/ c) /\ ((a /\ c) \/ b) <-- not immediately obvious :)
00:06:54  Is there a way to write median such that it is obvious?
00:08:00  hmm. almost. (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) is at least obviously symmetric.
00:08:21  but it's still unclear that it's equal to its dual.
00:09:32  It also uses five comparisons in the obvious implementation, rather than three.
00:09:55  Well, the way I wrote it has four comparisons, but it does both min and max for a and b.
00:10:23  sure it has more comparisons.
00:11:07  and if you have it in that form the fact that you can use distributivity once is fairly obvious.
00:11:22  Fair enough.
00:12:42  "the smaller of the three pairwise maxima" is pretty clear, at least.
00:13:14  What does it do in a poset?
00:13:46  (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ((a /\ (a \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a \/ (b /\ (a \/ c))) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (b \/ c) /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ (b \/ c)) \/ (b /\ (a \/ c)) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ a) \/ (b /\ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)
00:14:31  if you just have a poset, you won't have /\ or \/...
00:14:38  I mean lattice.
00:15:01  If you have a non-distributive lattice I think the duality breaks down.
00:15:23  (I mean the equation I just derived.)
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00:26:03  lattices, yum
00:27:37  does somebody know how to mend the sleeping schedule?
00:28:35  go traveling to another time zone for a while hth
00:29:02  try melatonin
00:29:02  shachaf: hmm… too costly :D
00:29:19  mm thanks
00:29:28  read the excessively long slatestarcodex post about it
00:29:54  thanks for narrowing down the set of slatestarcodex posts
00:30:08  shachaf: did I tell you about my adventures with galantamine
00:30:21  no
00:30:32  okay I think I’ll go then, it’s morning here
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00:30:42  i,i goofusamine and galantamine
00:31:27  mhm
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00:32:29  kmc: i saw a good video that had kittens in it on the internet
00:32:35  but unfortunately i lost it
00:32:40  so you're just going to have to imagine some kittens
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00:36:20  shachaf: and it's actually trivial to produce an example of a lattice where that operation is not self-dual, namely the one with 3 incomparable elements, plus top and bottom elements.
00:37:01  ("trivial" in the sense that starting with three incomparable elements is very natural for this property.)
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08:57:58  yo
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15:10:22  at most is the nsame thing as maximum, not minimum
15:12:00  oh I see... "x is at most y" is the same thing as "x = min(x,y);"
15:12:20  so it's like a 'min=' operator
15:14:17  I am not sure how that would work in a functional language tho
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19:47:12  shachaf: you may be interested to know, that Ted Chiang is reading "Exhalation" on Thursday June 13 at 7:30 PM at Green Apple Books (my favorite bookstore) on 9th Ave in San Francisco
19:47:19  or maybe second favorite... it doesn't have a cat unfortunately
19:48:28  kmc: fancy
19:48:31  are you going
19:48:33  not sure
19:48:50  cat
19:48:55  `? cat
19:48:57  Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:49:06  legalize cats
19:49:24  Puns are fun, but should be illegal.
19:51:06  I should get a couple of cats and name them This and That.
19:51:19  Do you like This?
19:51:29 -!- FreeFull has joined.
19:51:34  yes
19:51:37  and I like That
19:52:47  kmc: https://i.imgur.com/LOiSViu.gifv
19:53:21  awww
19:53:29  so was the cat climbing her while she tried to keep her cool?
19:54:28  I think That is possible
19:54:56  Who's on first?
19:54:58  though my cat is completely impossible sometimes… to bear
20:00:54  bear eats cat
20:01:31  http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1313
20:05:31  that's the wrong kind of esoterics for me.
20:08:20  shachaf: isn’t it tagged as joke? It seems too bad for a serious one
20:08:54  Serious one?
20:09:23  or pretending to be non-joke
20:09:51  I'm confusil.
20:10:13  some of them are definitely creepy, and joke ones, I think, are never creepy, and this one is a bear^W^W unbearable
20:29:42  I guess the whole wiki is a work of fiction. I'm not in the right mood for that.
20:37:45 -!- telnet has changed nick to uplime.
20:45:00  int-e: yeah, it is, of course
20:47:00  but there are things in which one immerses way better than this unbelievable page IMO
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21:04:23  shachaf: So This is This and That is That: / and there's how you ad-dress a cat.
21:20:46  adjointly dress?
21:22:54  . o O ( so This is That and That is This, and nothing will be what it seems )
21:23:23  b_jonas’s one is better
21:25:39  I think it's also Eliot's.
21:26:45  oh
21:26:55  a reverse allusion, was it?
21:29:11  What's the difference between that and a regular allusion?
21:29:41  in this context, a regular allusion is not a cat.
21:32:06  shachaf: if b_jonas cited the original, and you alluded to it earlier than that (via retcon, possilbly?), that may be called a reverse allusion, I think. If
21:32:55  a complicated hypothesis
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21:51:32  you mean like I randomly quoted it, and then shachaf used his crystal ball earlier to foresee that and allude to it?
21:51:45  yeah, that's not a bad hypothesis. it matches my personality at least.
22:02:54  though it’s not why I came with “reverse allusion” name in the first place—I just thought it’s funny that situation is in some sense reversed compared to usual allusions somehow, it was a vague feeling, but latter came the rationalization
22:08:10  ``` set -e; cd wisdom; print "%s/ " vi*
22:08:12  Error: no such file "%s/ " \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain" \ Error: no "print" mailcap rules found for type "text/plain"
22:08:18  ``` set -e; cd wisdom; printf "%s/ " vi*
22:08:18  vi/ victoria/ vim/ violation/ virgil/
22:08:30  virgil? is that one of mine?
22:08:32  `? virgil
22:08:34  Virgil is a prayer at dawn, as well as an ancient Italian poet who led Dante to hell so they can ask the blind transgendered seer Anchises stupid politics questions concerning contemporary noble families.
22:08:38  must be
22:08:46  `? vi
22:08:46  `? vim
22:08:47  vi is in a relationship with emacs.
22:08:48  vim equals to cmxciv or cmxcvi, depending on which part of Roman Empire you are.
22:08:53  `? victoria
22:08:54  Queen Victoria is the most victorious queen the world has ever known, even having won at the not dying contest.
22:08:55  `? violation
22:08:57  Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family.
22:13:28  right.. sex and violins.
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22:17:25  b_jonas: what one was you looking for?
22:18:52  arseniiv: vicuna
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22:19:44  oh, didn’t hear about these before
22:22:23  no wonder, because they don't have a wisdom entry
22:28:03  hm sounds right
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22:46:32  an improved Disfigure? nice
22:46:50  (a card in the upcoming M:tG set, called Defile)
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2019-05-31:

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01:02:58  hello
01:03:21  `welcome Xylochoron
01:03:22  Xylochoron: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:03:35  how's it going
01:03:48  ask fungot
01:03:48  shachaf: shortly after the war, the strength of the interests of your hearers, there to shine forever, while the world lasts, a warning to protect their own buildings ( which were without any fnord or fnord anything. will you let in a mussulman? will you hazard so desperate a step while there is any mistake about it," said clodius.
01:05:07  hey, i'm a regular on the esolangs Discord server. working on a thing to compile turing machines into cyclic tag these days....
01:05:13  i gather you guys are not big fans of discord.
01:06:20 * kmc definitely isn't
01:06:42  uhm, anyway, i know i'm just like, showing up in ur server all of a sudden, but, well, some of us discorders are like, not so happy about discord ourselves, and there's this open source thing like discord called Matrix,
01:06:47  hail eris
01:06:49  so i'm 4 sure not asking you guys to join that or anything
01:06:51  i'm just like, 
01:06:56  wondering if we can make a bridge?
01:07:13  i know someone asked about that for discord before and i heard u guys said no, but maybe matrix would be ok?
01:07:15  all hail discordia
01:07:39  Don't people already use Matrix with IRC?
01:07:42  just though i'd ask, there's a lot of us who are curious to know what you guys are all talking about but are kinda stuck on some of the features of discord :-/ riot has pretty much the same features and is open source and stuff so,
01:07:48  ummm
01:07:54  ok sorry i'm actually just new to matrix today X-D
01:08:00  Looks like tswett[m] here is doing that.
01:08:05  so i might not be completely understanding how it works haha
01:08:31  i made my own esolang room there, but if there's a way to just connect with you guys more directly that'd be great to
01:08:35  *o
01:08:35  Anyway I'm not the person to ask about these things but I usually don't like these bridges.
01:09:12  Xylochoron: There already is a bridge. I'm using it right now.
01:09:19  ok, i gotcha. let me actually just look into if there's a more direct way to
01:09:20  oh ok!
01:09:32  IRC has plenty of problems but at least it's relatively simple and a protocol you can make your own clients for.
01:10:25  simple isn't necesarily a huge benefit for me but like, i'm sure it is for others, to each their own i dunno?
01:10:36  how do i get on your side of the bridge tswett[m]
01:10:37  lol
01:10:47  i'm new to matrix just today haha
01:11:12  I think you just join #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org.
01:11:21  would love to know what u guys have been talking about. have some good friends on discord too though i hope i can convince evryone to merge or something.......
01:11:30  ok. let me try that again hang on
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01:12:12  man, web software is scow
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01:12:20  oops
01:13:46  did you know that the Matrix standard specifies RESTful HTTP APIs for securely transmitting and replicating JSON data between Matrix-capable clients
01:14:05  are all things that describe themselves as RESTful bad
01:14:08  I also use Discord, by the way, so I'd be interested in knowing about the esolang Discord. :D
01:14:08  imo probably
01:16:23  lol i guess i can tell you about the esolang discord, but really over there we've been talking about switching to matrix
01:16:39  so it'd be a little weird to have some people moving that way and others this way lol
01:17:24  That's fair. :D
01:17:32  sorry could you tell me that address to add on matrix again
01:17:57  nevermind found it lol
01:18:54  sorry for being dumb but i'm actually having some trouble figuring out how to join from matrix
01:19:00  where do i plug in "#freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org" :-/
01:19:36  i'm trying to "create a new room" and typing that address into the search bar
01:19:53  nothing comes up, searching for esoteric doesn't come up with anything either
01:20:02  You're on riot.im?
01:20:32  oh right
01:20:38  i'm using the desktop riot client thing,
01:20:42  Click on the join-a-room button, type in #freenode_#esoteric:matrix.org, and hit enter.
01:20:55  You won't see any search results, but that doesn't matter.
01:21:02  oh ok let me try again
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01:21:55  ok right wow, all i had to do was hit "join" and not worry about it being in the search results duh
01:21:55  Looks like you did it. :D
01:22:03  thanks cool
01:22:06  Welcome to the Dark Side.
01:22:16  u has cookies?
01:22:58  this should be cool, i'm always worried that on discord we're talking about stuff you guys have already figured out the answer to over here haha
01:23:54  Like how to write a loop in ///. :D
01:24:01  ofc everyone wants to know that
01:24:07  slashes is best esolang
01:24:18  Holy cow, I invented /// half my life ago.
01:24:28  srusly? cool
01:24:50  I was 13 at the time, now I'm 26.
01:25:27  nice
01:26:11  nice
01:26:26  i'm so sad i didn't get into programming when i was younger than i did, but i hope i'm making up for it in time. i'm 35 and only really started coding around 22 or so D-:
01:26:40  i guess i messed around with calculator basic in middle school a little bit lol
01:26:44  yeah you don't have to start early to be great at it
01:26:54  but its pretty cool to hear about people making that kind of stuff at like 13
01:27:12  well i've made some stuff so,
01:27:21  i'm like, the oldest person by far on the discord server haha
01:27:29  at least of people who've admitted their ages,
01:27:55  so, random point though lol
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03:57:02       03:27  User talk:Groowy‎ (diff | hist) . . (+760)‎ . . Ais523 (talk | contribs) (Creative Commons licenses make it legal to do certain things with the work, but there are restrictions; Esolang doesn't meet those restrictions, so you can't post Creative Commons work (other than the unrestricted CC0) here)
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04:24:45  `? A
04:24:46  A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
04:24:55  `? User:A
04:24:56  User:A? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:25:14  `? User:A
04:25:15  User:A? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:25:24  `? A
04:25:25  A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters.
04:25:42  `? adu
04:25:43  Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
04:25:49  yes?
04:25:55  `? aloril
04:25:56  aloril? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:26:06  what's happening
04:26:23 -!- a_ has left.
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04:27:19  a_ is pretending to be the esowiki bot now.
04:28:14  `? Å
04:28:15  ​Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
04:28:28  `grWp things on top
04:28:29  a:A is one of seven villages in Norway. The BBC invented them by not understanding things on top of letters. \ å:Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters. \ cocoa:A is a village in Norway. The BBC invented it by not understanding things on top of letters.
04:38:22 -!- a_ has joined.
04:38:41  `? Apic
04:38:42  Apic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:38:52  `? b_jonas
04:38:53  b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
04:39:02  `? bobby
04:39:03  bobby? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:39:17  a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
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04:57:14  shachaf: thanks
05:04:02 -!- Zsdf has joined.
05:04:07  `? shachaf
05:04:08  Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. We don't like this.
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05:09:07  a_: You are being obnoxious and repeatedly engaging in behaviors that people have asked you to stop.
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05:14:46  what is the deal with this person's random harassment
05:14:49  leave me alone, a_
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06:02:00  shachaf,int-e : hm, i've pondered that median thing, before
06:04:00  Which thing?
06:04:43  orin : "`x' is at most `y'" is written `x =< y'
06:05:08  the `(a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = ... = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c)' one
06:10:47  i was pondering "matching" on bags
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06:35:59  Ah, right.
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07:36:59  tswett[m]: in that case look at the other string-rewriting esolanguages at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm
07:37:39  tswett[m]: 13 years ago, that was around 2006, right? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA is from 2007
07:38:24  xylochoron[m]: basic of what calculator specifically? it's hard to guess because I don't know when you were in middle school
07:38:38  oh, "oldest person"
07:38:43  hmm
07:39:40  nah, if you were that old, you wouldn't have had a calculator with basic in middle school
08:03:00  wow, thunderstorm warning for today, sunday and monday
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11:53:02  oh nice, I hadn't seen this one before. website registration form, with javascript that checks whether the password you want to set satisfies their password complexity criterion. it lists each condition in a separate line, and checks immediately during typing the password, so when you type the first capital letter, it marks "At least 1 capitalized 
11:53:02  letter" checked.
11:53:43  ugh
11:53:55  and yeah, "Avoid using '," , & ,< , >,/ special character" because they apparently aren't sure they can write working javascript or sql placeholders or something
11:54:19  let me try to remove that javascript and register with a password that fails some of those criterions
11:54:34  little bobby tables
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13:11:16  ski: fun fact: (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c) implies distributivity (assuming a lattice). Fairly difficult...
13:26:24  that sounds interesting
13:26:26  why is that
13:27:00  I don't know why. I've just proved it ;-)
13:27:54  the shape vaguely resembles distributivity in that it swaps inner and outer \/ and /\.
13:28:34  But beyond that I have little intuition.
13:29:31  how did you prove that
13:42:30  int-e: neat! And you don’t need bounds or negation, only lattice axioms?
13:43:06  yes
13:43:33  It's funny because my paper proof is incorrect... but I convinced Isabelle ;-)
13:46:45  int-e: did you give any hints to Isabelle, or did it just derive the result automatically?
13:47:07  let’s see… if c ↦ b, that median thing implies (a ∨ b) ∧ b = (a ∧ b) ∨ b. Hm, that’s in axioms already, wrong turn
13:47:13  I proved an intermediate lemma.
13:48:34  but then I used sledgehammer so there's a proof step I don't understand at all :)
13:53:09  arseniiv: I think you used distributivity in that thought.
13:53:58  (assuming that c |-> b means c = c \/ b)
13:55:42  oh, wrong way, that should be b \/ c = b.
13:56:43  (do you mean, assuming that `c =< b' ?)
13:57:33  I would rather not involve the order at all at this point.
13:58:23  (i don't see what "if c ↦ b" or "assuming that c |-> b" even means)
13:59:00  read it as an implication, then rewrite it as \supset ;-)
14:01:27  int-e: why, I simply substituted b for c and used some associativity and idempotency
14:01:42  ooh.
14:02:02  I am cryptic :D
14:02:04  okay then
14:02:16  I read something else, so I gave away a bit of a hint :)
14:02:42  but in retrospect reading it as a substitution would've made perfect sense.
14:04:42  I had a TI-89 graphing calculator with basic on it. They were introduced in 1998, when I was in 7th grade.
14:04:54  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-89_series
14:05:13  Cost about the same as it does today too, yay for monopoly?
14:05:34  See also: https://xkcd.com/768/
14:06:29  How do I @ that guy...
14:07:05  @freenode_b_jonas:matrix.org:
14:07:06  Unknown command, try @list
14:07:41  ha, you were in middle school when the TI-89 was already available. I don't think you're the oldest
14:08:59  ⌜↦⌝ is not an implication arrow, to me
14:10:28  ski: I read something that I wanted to see.
14:10:56  ? I’m the oldest amonth those who’ve admitted their ages on the Discord server, which is most. I think the second oldest is like 23. If there’s older people here yeah that’s great
14:10:58  i see
14:10:59  xylochoron[m] : fwiw, it's not IRC custom to prefix people's nicknames with sigils like `@', when messaging or referring to them. simply mention their nickname, e.g. at the beginning of the message, followed e.g. by a comma or a colon, and the message
14:11:27  Ok sorry!
14:12:16  (many IRC clients hilight a message / alert a user, if their nickname is mentioned, first thing in a message. i think not as many do that, in case the nickname is mentioned somewhere else in a message. though i think most also highlight/alert, on private message ?)
14:12:38  (oh .. and `@' already means something else on IRC (namely that the person in question is an operator on the channel))
14:12:53  xylochoron[m] : just fyi :)
14:13:50  Ok thanks :-D I am a little embarrassingly new to this so just let me know thanks :-D
14:13:53  (perhaps the other old people are ashamed to admit how old they are, on Discord  ?)
14:14:11  Yes it could be
14:14:33  The 13 year olds are happy to speak up though...
14:14:45  (that was partly in jest)
14:15:02  Ok!
14:15:26  what discord channel?
14:17:24  https://discordapp.com/invite/say2ERQ?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app
14:18:01  oh I can’t believe I’m within several years of 30. It feels so old :\
14:18:05  am I old
14:18:14  I was actually trying to convince some of those guys to switch to matrix with me but not sure how much success I’m having
14:18:24  please tell me here are someone over 80
14:19:07  i've chatted with people on IRC who're at least 70, i think
14:19:23  Yeah can I please talk to an actual old person lol
14:19:25  at least some of them behave like it
14:19:26  I've chatted people in real life who're at least 70
14:19:37  Cool
14:19:37  heh
14:19:48  Weird
14:19:59  hm I’m chatted with my grandmother :o :o
14:20:16  perhaps you could chat to two people, whose combined age is at least seventy )
14:20:18  it’s unbelievable^W^W
14:20:24  ?
14:20:32  ski: oh, that could work too
14:20:46  have my hon. and learned friend fungot chatted with people who're at least 70?
14:20:47  wob_jonas: " had the reviewer's object, in whatever hands, whether high or low prices, whether he chooses to call one two, and eight grinders. its body is covered with an obscurity not to be begged. they must at length have a retreat from the malice of his adversary, by fnord cringing to the public peace. if our liberty has enfeebled the executive power, rendering government in all undertakings for the public necessities, and c
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14:21:31  ski: hm, combined ages should indeed make things more bearable… I hope!
14:21:54  My grandparents once were talking about how when you’re 60, 50 is so young, when 70 60 is young, 80 70
14:21:54  Or smthng like that
14:22:19  anyway did int-e say that there was a hint? should I presume b ≤ c and try to make something of that?..
14:22:37  xylochoron[m]: makes sense, too, yeah
14:22:38  perhaps sum is not the appropriate arithmetical (geometrical ?) operation ?
14:24:03  as we’ve seen, max is pretty boring, so maybe arithmetic-geometric mean or something
14:24:05  > logBase 2 (2 ** 30 + 2 ** 40)
14:24:07   40.00140819439281
14:24:34  ski: hm I think base 2 is unnatural
14:24:35  too close to `max', i suppose
14:24:55  > log (exp 30 + exp 40)
14:24:57   40.00004539889922
14:25:13  haha it’s even less useful
14:25:17  not that much difference
14:25:19  > logBase 1 (1 ** 30 + 1 ** 40)
14:25:22   Infinity
14:26:37  yesterday I learned P(Z) = Q ∪ {∞}, acted on with usual fractional-linear transformations
14:27:10  > [30 ** log 40,40 ** log 30]  -- and this is greater than sum
14:27:13   [281139.7457691163,281139.74576911645]
14:27:31  "fractional-linear" ?
14:27:52  it should be that different because Z has so many non-unit elements
14:29:08  ski: I mean, x ↦ (ax + b) / (cx + d) where a, b, c, d ∈ Z
14:30:57  hm, reminds be of Möbius transformations
14:31:23  yeah, they are precisely these transformations of P(C)
14:31:35  i wonder whether that's related to "linear relations"
14:31:44  `P' being powerset ?
14:31:44  ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: P': not found
14:32:07  no, P just stands for projectivization
14:32:16  oh. ok
14:32:33  though usually I’ve seen it come after something, like in RP^n
14:32:38  that was confusing me for a bit
14:33:02  (RP^n is P(R^(n+1)) IIRC)
14:33:12  ah, I should have foreseen :)
14:33:16  aye
14:34:04 * ski is reminded of musical intervals
14:34:36  anyway
14:37:43  wait, so the "[m]" is something that the bridge of this "matrix" chat appends?
14:38:14  presumably
14:38:19  that explains a lot, because earlier I've seen a different channel with a lot of users with that in the nick
14:38:32  though i think not all people connected via Matrix has that nickname suffix
14:39:07  it could be just a default
14:41:12  btw `\(x,y) -> x ** logBase b y' is commutative
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14:43:07  hm
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14:43:34  ski: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/diary/february_2019.html#february_16
14:43:57  Baez has a diary now ?
14:44:04  my favourite funfact in that regard was how gdc(fib(x), fib(y)) is supposedly fib(gdc(x, y))
14:44:29  i never proofed it, though
14:45:14  fwiw, i was mostly thinking of it, in the context of modular arithmetic (so `logBase b' is the "index", the discrete logarithm, wrt the primitive root `b')
14:46:58  myname: that one is true,
14:47:43  wob_jonas: but why
14:48:44  but there's a more general statement that you could conjecture but that's false: namely that for any second order linear recurrence of the form s_0 = 0; s_1 = 1; s_{k+1} = A*s_{k-2}+B*s_{k-1}; you'd get gcd(s_x,s_y)=s_{gcd(x,y)}
14:48:52  and it's interesting to find a counterexample to that
14:49:30  myname: prove at first that if k divides n then fib(k) divides fib(n), then the converse of that
14:49:45  use the recurrence relation directly
14:50:05  and look at the sequence modulo fib(k)
14:50:54  fib is weird
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14:51:42  no it's not
14:51:54  this is typical for such second order linear recurrences, 
14:56:12  including the important case of s_k = 2**k - 1, which is what you get for A=-2, B=3
14:56:36  you might already know that if k divides n, then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1)
14:56:42  myname: ^
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15:01:55  or maybe it's not true in that case?
15:01:57  I don't remember
15:02:18  I think the direction that if k divides n then (2**k - 1) divides (2**n - 1) is true, 
15:02:23  just perhaps not the converse
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15:05:54  I think both are true for that sequence
15:12:07  wob_jonas: for my part, I consider number theory an obscure discipline of magic
15:19:06  yay, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_lattice#Characteristic_properties
15:19:36  (Also my lemma is to show that the lattice is modular.)
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15:48:56  arseniiv: for my part, I consider lattices an obscure discipline of magic. I'm fine with some special cases of course.
15:49:11  arseniiv: but the statement I made isn't too deep in number theory of course
15:49:16  some parts of number theory are magic, sure
15:49:20  I don't know those
15:49:36  well, that applies to more or less any branch of mathematics
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15:50:27  wob_jonas: mhm of course I’m not too deep in lattices, but I don’t consider them magic, it’s just something partially unknown to me, without strange feelings
15:52:08  int-e: the second one there looks like it seems practical for some subtyping typechecking/inference algorithms
15:52:45  In any case, I still don't have a complete paper proof for this. It's kind of annoying. :)
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16:22:08  hey esofolks
16:22:20  are these lattice formulas decidable?
16:24:38  > The classical papers Ph. M. Whitman [1941] and [1942] solved the word problem
16:24:40  for free lattices: Whitman gave an algorithm for determining if two lattice terms
16:24:41   error:
16:24:41       Data constructor not in scope: The :: t0 -> t1 -> t2 -> b0 -> cerror: Va...
16:24:41       • Variable not in scope: papers
16:24:42  (polynomials) were equal in all lattices.
16:24:57  this sounds like a Knuth-Bendix type thing, but for lattices?
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16:28:25  Impossible to say without having a closer look.
16:29:24  (Knuth&Bendix' approach can fail even for equationaly theories with a decidable word problem)
16:29:31  *equational
16:30:10  And Wikipedia is wrong on this... sigh.
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16:33:12  (It claims that Knuth-Bendix completion is a semi-decision procedure, but that's only true for ordered completion, aka unfailing completion, which came quite a bit later... due to Bachmair and Dershowitz I guess?)
16:35:56  rain1: it's also worth noting that the decidable word problem has little bearing on the question whether a given equation implies another in the theory of lattices; adding the first equation changes the equational theory, after all.
16:36:29  yeah
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18:32:18  xylochoron[m]: if you like the /// esolang, then among the other string-replacement languages https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:String-rewriting_paradigm , you may want to check out https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_DNA , which is another one where the only way to loop is to copy your source code
18:32:36  only in that one, it's much easier to copy, because it can match more freely than just literals
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19:00:35  ok interesting
19:01:06  one thing i like about slashes is that it's TC with only two symbols, but ofc there's esolangs i like that have more than two symbols also :-P
19:03:41  one symbol is all you need hth
19:07:55  hmm, actually
19:08:07  there's another set of such languages, though they also make copying easy:
19:08:58  https://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch%27s_second_machine counts as string-rewriting, right?
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20:31:45  has anyone built a brainfuck interpreter that can execute /dev/urandom?
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20:46:35  Everything inside the outer brackets has to be saved until that loop is finished, and if you find ] before [ then it won't be valid (but you could use ] to separate the program from the input, perhaps)
20:46:42  ?messages-loud
20:46:42  shachaf asked 1d 21h 51m 10s ago: Do you like GF2P8AFFINEQB?
20:46:49  shachaf: I don't know
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21:05:01  Soni: I'm not sure; you'd have to make the execution start running the program as it read it
21:05:34  that's basically what Easy interpreters do, but they read input and program from the same stream so it isn't the same language as brainfuck (that's why it has a different name)
21:05:53  it'd be easy enough to adapt an Easy interpreter to read input and program from different files…
21:07:05  Are there any interesting quines that don't look like the classic quine?
21:07:25  shachaf: what counts as looking like the classic quine?
21:07:28  there are lots of quines
21:07:29  I mean that they don't have two copies of almost the same string, one quoted and one not, or something, but use some other mechanism.
21:08:00  shachaf: in some languages you can have just one copy of most of your code and recover it
21:08:15  you know, like e = '... code here ...'; eval(e)
21:08:36  Well, using the language's mechanism for it (or reading the input file) seems a bit uninteresting.
21:08:45  and then there are quines where there are two copies, but the data one is encoded so much that it doesn't look anything like the code
21:08:52  not just a few backspaces, but completely encrypted
21:09:11  and of course the code and data can intermix
21:09:55  I suspect the answer to my question is no, this is more or less the only way quines can work.
21:10:17  and there's all sorts of strange language-dependent stuff like error quines
21:10:49  shachaf: there are two common classes of non-degenerate quines which don't have a large repeated section: eval quines and topological quines
21:11:12  ^ul (a(:^)*S):^
21:11:12  (a(:^)*S):^
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21:11:56  that's an eval quine
21:11:59  What are topological quines?
21:12:19  ais523: ah nice
21:12:23  shachaf: they're quines in languages like Befunge which make use of parts of the language world which wrap around
21:12:33  so that the "repeated section" only actually appears once in the program
21:13:05  ais523: oh, so like the seek DATA,0,0 quines in perl?
21:13:13  which read their own source code
21:13:19  or do those count as eval quines?
21:13:32  that's either a topological quine or just plain cheating, depending on your point of view
21:14:11  toplogical quines in Befunge normally start with an unmatched "
21:14:22  yeah, there are plain cheating ones, such as ones that access a copy of the source code that's outside the source code, such as downloading them from the internet, or reading it from a different file
21:14:32  which puts the whole program inside the string (because the playfield wraps around, so the " matches itself), but it's /also/ outside the string so it runs after the entire thing has been placed into a string literal
21:15:11  nice
21:16:03  there may be other quine patterns too, but classic/topological/eval are the three main categories I'm aware of
21:16:34  there's also double-literal quines but those probably count as cheating, they abuse a bug in codegolf.stackexchange's definition of a quine
21:16:52  what does double-literal quines mean?
21:17:05  they ban literal-only quines, but in languages where programs run right to left and literals just echo themselves, you can write the same literal twice
21:17:24  then each of the literals prints the other, rather than each literal printing itself, so it doesn't count as literal-only
21:17:32  hehe
21:17:38  btw, a literal-only quine is this sort of thing:
21:17:40  > 123
21:17:42   123
21:17:46  not very interesting
21:19:03  so classic means the quine has some data and some code that prints the data twice, and one of the time it prints it it matches the data, right? and it counts even if the code and data are intermixed, or if the data is encoded in some unrecognizable way?
21:19:59  what makes it classic is that the code and data parts are mostly disjoint?
21:20:03  a classic quine is a program as code, + an encoding of that code as data
21:20:30  the encoding might be weird or whatever but it's still just a separate part of the program
21:20:37  then from that encoding, you generate both the code and the encoding itself
21:21:33  incidentally, I tried to come up with a precise definition of a classic quine, but oerjan came up with a silly counterexample where you have /two/ identical data sections, each of which is used to generate the other (so that data is never used to regenerate itself)
21:21:50  hehe
21:22:21  most of my quines are classic quines then, though I have some eval quines and even cheating quines
21:24:10  `perl -e print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:11  print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,"print unpack a35X35a34xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:55  `perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:24:55  ​`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,"`perl -eprint unpack a43X43a42xaXXaaXaXXa,\"\\"
21:26:28  `perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
21:26:28  ​`perl -eprint+("`perl -eprint+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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22:04:45  b_jonas: I just made up the term "classic quine", I don't know what it's called.
22:04:46  hmm
22:05:04  oh, cross-talk
22:05:05  I mean a quine which is generated by Lawvere's theorem or something.
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22:05:21  shachaf: well, ais523 also used "classic", so that sounds good 
22:08:16  There isn't even a Wikipedia page for Lawvere's theorem.
22:14:00  The Y combinator is also arguably a quine.
22:14:14  At least it's a special case of diagonalization.
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22:16:11  (Y print) is a quine
22:16:28  or, hmm, no
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22:16:36  because it doesn't print its own source code, but its own /output/
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22:21:08  Lawvere's theorem is: In a CCC, if there's a surjective phi : A -> B^A, then every arrow f : B -> B has a fixed point
22:22:00  shachaf: what's the quantifier on A, \exists or \forall?
22:22:57  exists
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22:24:12  I guess I shouldn't say surjective in a CCC.
22:25:13  I find CCCs really unintuitive because there are two different vaguely function-like things (categorical arrows, and exponentials)
22:25:42  and I find it hard to keep them apart in my head
22:25:43  But you have an evaluation map.
22:26:04  I think the idea is that they're similar enough that you don't need to.
22:27:33  oh, there are functors as well, those are also vaguely function-like
22:27:57  And natural transformations!
22:28:02  indeed
22:28:13  I'm one of the few people who always specifies everything involved in a natural transformation, rather than eliding
22:28:28  because a) people get really sloppy when discussing them, and b) I find myself hopelessly confused without doing that
22:28:35  Do you like whiskering notation for natural transformations?
22:28:49  I used to think it was a bad shorthand but after a while I decided it was brilliant.
22:29:13  page 49 of my thesis shows the notation that I use
22:29:18  I don't know what the whiskering notation is
22:29:21  Whiskering is composing natural transformations and functors, as in Fε or εF
22:30:07  Which means respectively: (Fε)_x = F(ε_x) and (εF)_x = ε_{Fx}
22:30:28  that makes sense for /natural/ transformations, doesn't it?
22:30:45  it's much the same thing as omitting parens when you have a string of associative operatoins
22:31:24  `smlist 501
22:31:25  smlist 501: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
22:31:26  I agree that it makes sense.
22:31:39  it seems like a disaster on unnatural transformations, but people don't study those much
22:31:46  I'm looking for your thesis now to find page 49.
22:31:57  What are the things people normally elide?
22:32:15  the functors, normally
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22:32:36  Do you like the definition of a natural transformation as a functor : CxI -> D?
22:32:46  also the source category, but I can forgive eliding that
22:32:49  Where I the the category with two objects and three arrows, one between the two objects.
22:33:06  that definition seems horrible :-D
22:33:11  that doens't necessarily mean I don't like it
22:33:24  Do you like the one-sorted definition of a category?
22:33:28  It's nice from the perspective that it looks a whole lot like the traditional definition of a homotopy
22:33:44  That's where you only define the arrows, and leave the objects implicit.
22:33:54  You can also define one-sorted functors and one-sorted natural transformations.
22:34:05  presumably an object is somehow identified with its identity arrow?
22:34:27  Right.
22:34:41  I think the objects are good for the sake of understanding
22:34:46  In this definition, a natural transformation : F -> G : C -> D gives an arrow in D for every arrow in C.
22:34:52  Rather than merely for objects in C.
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22:35:18  The identity arrows correpond to the usual components of a natural transformation. The non-identity arrows correspond to diagonals of the naturality square.
22:37:02  Anyway, Lawvere's theorem says that the fixed point of f is, in pseudo-lambda calculus notation: (\x. f(phi(x)(x))) (\x. f(phi(x)(x)))
22:37:31  This is obviously just Y.
22:38:11  But you get Cantor's theorem and other diagonalization arguments from this as well.
22:39:04  phi is the isomorphism between B and B^B that you use to talk about the untyped lambda calculus as a CCC.
22:39:36  (You can also define it in Haskell, newtype Rec a = Rec (Rec a -> a), which lets you define Y.)
22:50:48  ais523: I see your notation now. It's very explicit.
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23:24:25  Do you like my variation of Along and Across? Now there is output (a single number), and you can use numbers as inputs of the along program rather than bits.
23:26:57  zzo38: well, Along and Across was designed for a very specific purpose (to attempt to work out if a specific definition of Turing-completeness was reasonable), your version doesn't achieve the same goals I had but might achiieve different goals
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23:28:05  that said, the difference in the along program inputs might not be relevant, although it isn't obvious
23:28:43  It depends what along language is in use
23:29:06  Also, I should think the output doesn't change the Turing-completeness.
23:31:37  yes, the output is irrelevant for TCness
23:35:56  can you make a program that just does whatever it wants
23:36:15  https://esolangs.org/wiki/Baby_Language ?
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23:38:01  zzo38: Did you write https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=150494&curpostid=169010 ?
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23:55:25  shachaf: I think so.
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23:57:23  ais523: not really. more like, glue random things together and see what happens
23:58:14  if we ever figure out how life started, that'll probably help us figure out how to bring it to computers
23:58:35  but we have no idea how life works
23:58:49  we can simulate all the chemistry and physics involved and it's all very expensive
23:59:03  but understanding how it actually works is something else entirely