00:00:31 weston: !ztest can be done in private (!zjoust always announces) 00:01:16 Gah, all those underscores. 00:02:32 i think it's at maximal length now... 00:03:24 maybe it's actually sending many more and those just get cut off :P 00:03:32 Probably. And despite a public holiday over here, I didn't make any progress at the reimplementation work. :/ 00:04:48 at some point it should get refused due to exceeding line length 00:09:48 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:11:05 oerjan: there are far worse ways to waste one's time :) 00:11:14 Yes, that's kind of concerning. Because I don't think it will actually restart properly. 00:11:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 00:20:23 Hey, sorry! I assumed it was private 00:21:19 New to IRC, how do I do private? 00:21:49 Usually "/query zemhill_______" opens a private window. 00:22:00 (I think it does in the webchat as well.) 00:22:17 seems to, thanks 00:29:29 [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61777&oldid=61660 * Oerjan * (-13) Partial revert to compiler: I don't think it makes sense to consider self-interpreters bootstrapping, because then you need to keep another implementation around to run it even after the "bootstrap". 00:30:57 fizzie: in other news, my change to the history page titles still doesn't seem to have taken effect. 00:32:42 oerjan: the dinosaurs aren't scary by themselves, it's what they may evolve into that is the stuff of nightmares :) 00:33:09 anyway, that was the idea that I liked and still like a lot. 00:33:34 [[Bootstrap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61778&oldid=61777 * Oerjan * (+68) Elaborate a bit more 00:34:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:35:03 . o O ( i take it int-e doesn't like birds ) 00:36:10 They are freaks of nature. :P 00:37:01 (Of course this is basically true of any species whatsoever.) 00:37:17 * int-e is off to bed. 00:40:44 [[(PTM)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61779&oldid=61712 * Oerjan * (-5) /* Links & Further reading */ Standard header 00:57:34 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:57:45 -!- imode has joined. 01:09:43 -!- tromp has joined. 01:10:27 -!- Melvar has joined. 01:13:28 -!- adu has joined. 01:14:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:54:30 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:57:21 -!- sprocklem has joined. 03:21:55 -!- FreeFull has quit. 03:25:24 -!- weston has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:25:53 -!- westonian has joined. 03:28:25 -!- westonian has quit (Client Quit). 03:29:02 -!- westonian has joined. 03:56:04 whoa, Windows is replacing WSL with actual Linux. 05:06:26 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 05:09:26 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:09:34 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:19:13 -!- adu has joined. 05:51:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:55:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:57:20 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:58:19 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:28:02 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:33:45 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 06:34:37 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:42:52 -!- yaewa has joined. 06:44:10 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:49:12 -!- moei has joined. 06:51:54 -!- yaewa has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:52:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:59:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:31:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:38:54 -!- tromp has joined. 08:18:05 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:20:52 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 08:21:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:54:49 -!- tromp has joined. 08:59:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:07:39 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:08:40 -!- hakatashi has joined. 09:35:09 -!- tromp has joined. 09:48:52 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 09:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:51:19 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 10:21:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:23:55 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:25:07 -!- nfd has joined. 10:25:38 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:27:35 [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61780&oldid=59205 * A * (+347) Put feature languages into this timeline (they are definitely important) 10:33:03 [[Keg/Golfing]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61781&oldid=61767 * A * (+42) /* Problem #2. Golf the Deadfish interpreter. */ 10:39:27 [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61782&oldid=61411 * A * (+145) Add an idea 10:50:32 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 10:54:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:47:18 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 11:49:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:49:46 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 11:51:00 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:24:37 https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) 12:25:03 also.. so cold. 12:25:21 @metar lowi 12:25:21 LOWI 071220Z 15006KT 100V210 CAVOK 12/M01 Q1016 NOSIG 12:26:24 (it's funny; the dewpoint estimates tend to differ by about one degree despite the measurements coming from the same place.) 12:34:05 @metar egsc 12:34:05 EGSC 071220Z 19007KT 9999 FEW040 BKN057CB 12/02 Q1014 12:35:39 Not too warm here either :( 12:59:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61783&oldid=61775 * A * (-1620) Thanks for the comments, I undo my edits of Bool Row. 13:00:03 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61784&oldid=61783 * A * (-520) And delete Bool Row. 13:00:38 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 13:03:55 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:09:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61785&oldid=61784 * A * (+283) Eliminate some computational models (as it is not clear whether it is Turing-complete) 13:11:22 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61786&oldid=61295 * A * (+35) Even though it is unclear whether bitch is Turing-complete, it is clear that it is at least a finite-state automata. 13:12:41 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61787&oldid=61785 * A * (+2) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:15:44 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61788&oldid=61787 * A * (+106) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:21:46 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61789&oldid=61788 * A * (+11) 13:24:18 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61790&oldid=61789 * A * (+67) Add a subtitle(I can't find where it is) 13:27:04 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61791&oldid=61790 * A * (+227) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push down automaton */ 13:42:48 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61792&oldid=61791 * A * (+544) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */ 13:43:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61793&oldid=61792 * A * (+15) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:44:42 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61794&oldid=61793 * A * (+90) /* What bitch surpasses */ 13:48:20 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61795&oldid=61794 * A * (+299) /* Proof that the Halting problem is trivial in bitch */ 13:49:11 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:50:06 [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61796&oldid=60518 * A * (-2) Reduce the complexity of Bucket 13:51:07 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:56:48 [[Bucket]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61797&oldid=61796 * A * (-25) 14:01:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:05:05 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61798&oldid=61795 * A * (+0) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:25:17 [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61799&oldid=49643 * A * (+2813) /* Hello, World! */ 14:25:38 [[EXCON]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61800&oldid=61799 * A * (-39) It is usable for computing 14:26:50 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61801&oldid=61798 * A * (-24) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:27:21 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:35 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61802&oldid=61801 * A * (+74) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:27:59 -!- Cale has joined. 14:30:13 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61803&oldid=61802 * A * (-83) /* Trivial proofs */ 14:31:56 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61804&oldid=61803 * A * (+91) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 14:39:33 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61805&oldid=61804 * A * (+809) We are going too far for proving the TC-ness of bitch. 14:41:27 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61806&oldid=61805 * A * (+10) minor edit 14:41:59 [[Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61807&oldid=61786 * A * (-35) Undo revision of A 14:42:33 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61808&oldid=61806 * A * (+10) /* Attempts on proving that bitch is a Push-down automaton */ 14:44:48 -!- imode has joined. 14:46:53 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61809&oldid=61808 * A * (+33) /* What bitch surpasses */ 14:47:15 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61810&oldid=61809 * A * (-849) Already irrelevant to proving TC-ness 14:55:38 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61811&oldid=61810 * A * (-446) /* [Ongoing] Equivalency between bitch and Home Row by User:Helen and User:A */ 14:58:12 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61812&oldid=61811 * A * (+12) /* Proof that bitch is a finite state automaton */ 15:05:01 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:07:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:27:20 -!- sleepnap has joined. 15:43:15 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:44:38 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:47:48 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 15:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:50:47 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:08:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:22:10 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 16:26:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:31:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:33:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:34:13 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:36:06 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 16:41:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:54 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:48:49 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 16:49:14 -!- sftp has joined. 17:48:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:51:12 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:01:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:13:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:16:32 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 18:16:43 -!- westonian has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:23:27 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:30:15 looks like I successfully lit a fircracker under someone's butt at firefox 18:31:11 and convinced them that no, having addons just suddenly stop working on un-updated computers, isn't valid behaviour 18:32:33 mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users 18:32:39 or about open source 18:34:00 A related issue is the potential censorship of add-ons; Mozilla Foundations could be legally or culturally inhibited from signing otherwise fine add-ons 18:34:17 Due to its location in California, USA 18:34:55 But I'm unaware of any extant examples of this problem 18:56:16 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:00:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 19:03:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:06:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:33:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:33 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:49:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:50:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 19:52:32 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:03:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:05:14 orin: I think even just "it stops working by accident" is a pretty valid complaint, and one that came up recently, so. :) 20:21:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:21:43 pikhq: the current date for the next addon mageddon is in 2025 20:47:06 re previous conversation, my wife reminded me of another way to choose an anniversary gift 20:47:42 which is, think of a situation that caused relationship friction in the past year, and buy an item to prevent that 20:47:53 and that's how I got an extension cord for my anniversary 20:49:44 kmc: nice. I am wary of that particular one, and have got extra extension cords and cables 20:49:51 but yeah, in general that should work well 20:50:01 I want a new electric toothbrush though 20:50:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:52:32 one can never have too many spare extension cables and phone chargers 20:53:14 yeah 20:53:35 especially since they break compatibility every five yeras 20:54:01 not for the extension cords, luckily 20:54:18 those just have their cables broken or the surge protector broken 21:01:22 I'm still using micro usb 21:01:53 the issue before is that we had some short cords. and a huge (50 foot) heavy duty cord that was thick and unwieldy 21:02:00 and nothing in between 21:02:08 kmc: yeah, there's that too 21:02:19 nothing between 0.3 m and 2 m 21:02:40 but I can deal with the 2m cables using cable ties 21:05:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:14:39 I feel appreciated: Brexit Party sent me a personal letter about how they're saving democracy. 21:14:59 "However you voted in 2016, we all care about democracy --" 21:18:33 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 21:20:08 how do you save democracy by removing accountability from the government? 21:21:39 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:34:48 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:37:40 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:37:47 -!- clog has joined. 21:41:05 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:44:08 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:49:15 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:50:55 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:54:43 lol 22:01:59 kmc: hm, that's not a bad gift idea 22:02:35 she went to the hardware store and browsed until something jogged her memory of a conflict 22:04:10 I should remember that one for later 22:04:29 I mean, the 'something to prevent some recent friction' scheme idea, not specifically extension cord :p 22:04:32 lol 22:05:18 hello 22:05:44 hi 22:07:51 how would you implement a language based on a list of sentences and the semantics is order independent? 22:08:08 needs more detail. what form do the sentences have? 22:08:17 unification is one way. a logic language like prolog 22:08:23 or alloy 22:08:31 im thinking like a generalized baba is you 22:08:39 or Lingua::Romana::Perligata 22:08:42 rain1: you can make each sentence a top-level function definition 22:08:50 the sentences represent logical facts and the interpter derives more facts from them 22:08:53 or, like, a definition for a top level function or variable 22:09:04 j4cbo: how is that order independent? 22:09:17 seems like this falls under the general umbrella declarative programming 22:09:33 syntactical order independent 22:09:49 though you could also have an imperative language which works this way, if you have some rule for which sentence 'executes' first, such as the shortest one, or most specific according to some metric 22:10:11 or you can use statements, with a line label and explicitly writing the labels of next states 22:10:16 thus linking them 22:10:22 yeah 22:10:34 Baba Is You seems to have a pretty clear evaluation order, at least. 22:10:35 old basics are like that... you can enter the lines in any order 22:10:39 shachaf: how's it defined? 22:10:54 I mean, it's kind of complicated, but it seems like it exists. 22:10:58 did anyone write an AI to play BiY yet? 22:11:06 seems like it might discover some really interesting weird solutions 22:11:13 by order doesn't matter i mean that you can shuffle the list of sentences and it has the same semantics 22:11:27 yeah, I got that 22:11:37 or like one of those string replacement languages, one of those that are nondeterministic in which replacement rule is ran, so you have to chain them by states 22:13:09 mm 22:16:31 the AND and OR operators in first order logic are order-independent 22:16:40 so a logic solver might be a way to do it 22:17:57 but maybe formal logic is too strict 22:19:41 yes, if your program is a list of logical equations then it's order independent 22:19:46 and can be 'executed' with a SAT solver or something 22:19:50 but that also has limited power 22:19:59 especially if you don't include NOT (then you only have monotonic circuits) 22:20:09 monotonic circuits are an interesting complexity class 22:20:15 how limiting is that? I mostly worry about it being 'fragile' and failing almost all th etime 22:20:18 for low-complexity things 22:20:21 fragilehow so 22:20:36 well most logical formula are unsatisfiable 22:20:37 for basic boolean SAT, if there is a solution a SAT solver will eventually find it, or say there isn't one 22:20:45 it will never give up. never surrender. 22:20:52 (unless you put a time bound on it of course) 22:20:56 but you probably want some characters to move even if one of the others is up against a wall (or inside a wall) and cant move 22:21:07 also if it's unsatisfiable it can find an 'unsat core' of equations that make it unsatisfiable 22:21:10 sure 22:21:18 wow the unsat core sounds perfect 22:21:56 there are lots of sat solvers, and competitions and such 22:22:00 but minisat is a good place to start 22:22:06 also if yo uhaven't seen it 22:22:11 you should really check out http://alloy.lcs.mit.edu/alloy/index.html 22:22:13 i have implemented a sat solver before 22:22:20 awesome 22:22:31 alloy is SAT based but adds a rich relational algebra on top of it 22:23:37 /* Defines what eats what and the farmer is not around. */ 22:23:39 fact { eats = Fox->Chicken + Chicken->Grain} 22:23:55 ah yes 22:24:00 this is cool 22:24:00 classic logic puzzle :) 22:29:05 SAT solvers are TG. 22:29:16 I want to write one so I understand all the fancy algorithms they use. 22:29:39 yeah 22:29:41 so did i 22:29:41 Like CDCL and 2-watched-literal. 22:29:43 but so many projects 22:31:06 Do you like dancing links? 22:31:11 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 22:31:18 i think so 22:31:21 but I forgot how it works 22:33:58 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:38:12 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:39:56 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:40:58 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:43:39 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:04:56 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:11:18 -!- brandonson has joined. 23:15:06 -!- brandonson has quit (Client Quit). 23:18:14 its just depth first search, but implemented really efficiently i think 23:18:46 for the specific problem of exact cover, cause of the double linked lists 23:19:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:30:28 -!- tromp has joined. 23:31:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:33:16 -!- olsner has joined. 23:33:48 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:35:04 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 23:35:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:36:28 https://www.bergfex.com/tirol/wetter/stationen/innsbruck-flughafen/ looks like somebody fixed an HTML injection problem. :-) <-- i don't get it. 23:38:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:39:45 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:43:32 mozilla has stopped giving a shit about their users <-- you know, i occasionally try to consider which browser i'll eventually switch to when i have to give up IE completely, and the main impression i seem to get about the major contenders is "they're all evil". 23:44:27 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:45:06 web browsers are scow 23:45:35 i'm giving up on the internet 23:45:38 ham radio for life 23:46:48 `` thanks Thunderbird # this was sort of anticlimactic 23:46:48 Thanks, Thunderbird. Thunderbird. 23:46:59 how is the web such a terrible platform imo 23:47:18 shachaf: because commercial companies were allowed to use it hth 23:47:21 same reason humans are so terrible 23:47:24 it evolved, it was not designed 23:47:34 mammals are p. great 23:47:41 and humans are way up there 23:47:49 not above cats obviously, but p. high 23:48:47 * kmc is a mammal 23:48:52 lucky 23:49:17 i particularly like the feature of mammals where they're conscious entities with brains and personalities and things 23:49:42 -!- kmc has left. 23:49:49 whoa 23:49:56 good scaring shachaf 23:49:59 i wonder why kmc left 23:50:21 i think we depressed her 23:50:27 oh, probably took it as a guilt-trip-for-eating-meat thing 23:50:34 which i wasn't even thinking of 23:50:40 sigh 23:51:00 that sounds like leaping to conclusions unless she's done that before 23:51:19 we have had interactions like that in the past 23:51:21 [[Talk:Bitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61813&oldid=61812 * Salpynx * (+3412) Conjecture that bitch is NOT TC, and a specific, simpler, bit copy challenge 23:52:18 i wonder if they'll converge to some actual answer on Bitch's computational class. i'm avoiding getting involved. 23:52:30 [[Talk:Bitch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61814&oldid=61813 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Not TC Conjecture: bitch cannot copy one bit from memory to another part of memory while retaining existing data */ crucial typo fix! 23:53:10 anyway what i said goes for s/mammals/humans/ too 23:53:13 although it's a bit shame no one told them about ais523's idea. 23:53:29 i'm just marveling at the universe being so odd 23:55:04 it seems to me that the logical end point of vegetarianism is that we have to get our brains uploaded to computers so we can stop hurting living beings simply by existing. 23:55:18 including, in the extreme, our own body cells. 23:55:35 not hurting living beings simply by existing sounds p. good to me 23:55:59 but i don't care about hurting my own body cells very much 23:56:12 well the question is whether _they_ care. 23:56:41 it's a pretty despotic regime. 23:57:05 Whose question? 23:57:31 -!- salpynx has joined. 23:57:43 the moral question. 23:57:50 or ethical 23:58:42 it might eventually turn out elementary particles are conscious, in which case the ethics are pretty screwed. 23:58:50 Reminds me of Smullyan: «I must tell you that on another occasion, my mother wanted me to do something which I didn't want to do. When I told her that I wouldn't do it, and she told me that I was being selfish, I said, "Mother, whose sake do you want me to be unselfish?"» 23:59:53 poking my head in here to ask for feedback on whether I have made any obvious mistakes with my attempt on talk:bitch to settle the endless TC quest