00:00:07 exactly 00:00:56 memory RUSTfety 00:00:57 What's a managed heap? Garbage collection? 00:00:57 I also want to be able to reasonably say to someone "hey, don't do that or you'll be fired" 00:02:05 And I've certainly written Haskell code as a prototype and reimplemented it in C++ for speed after I figured out the right algorithm, for combinatorial enumerations. 00:02:19 shachaf: Yes, GC is usually implied. 00:02:32 That and memory safety. 00:03:03 Garbage collection seems pretty scow to me. 00:03:15 If you start with garbage collection you can't really remove it later, even locally. 00:03:21 It's fundamentally a global thing. 00:03:42 If you had local heaps with no external pointer, the argument for GC would be stronger. 00:04:50 Hmm, isn't that covered by regions? You don't have to give up the runtime-management for that, really. 00:05:35 I don't think I know languages that do local GC. Probably because global pointers are great. 00:05:39 (I'm talking in principle, not about GHC. GHC doesn't have this. It has nurseries which somewhat help, keeping scratch objects thread-local.) 00:05:44 I guess Erlang does. 00:06:31 -!- kmc has left. 00:08:49 AFAIUI GHC pays for thread-local nurseries by an expensive write barrier: If you update a pointer on the global heap (after evaluating a thunk) with a local object, that object will be promoted immediately. 00:11:41 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:11:46 Anyway. A partial answer for GHC is that you can allocate a pinned object for scratch space and play around with that all you like, even from foreign code. 00:20:30 That's not really an answer, though. 00:20:42 GHC still needs to stop the world for collecting the global heap, doesn't it? 00:34:45 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 00:35:03 -!- sombrero has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:39:54 U+1F391 MOON VIEWING CEREMONY [🎑] 00:54:48 -!- kmc has joined. 01:31:50 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Snidbert64 * New user account 01:34:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61338&oldid=61327 * Snidbert64 * (+176) /* Introductions */ 02:37:14 -!- sombrero has joined. 02:40:40 mmm, almost I forgot it, if some want a DSL instead of a PL to tackle pixels, https://bmao.tech/PixelPlusPlus/ is a good option 02:42:50 ...not in the sense of Piet, lol 02:59:18 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:23:48 -!- sombrero has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:35:35 I'm stuck on BIY 03:35:53 level fall-5: haunt 03:42:46 yaay solved it 04:06:41 -!- adu_ has joined. 04:06:46 -!- adu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:06:46 -!- adu_ has changed nick to adu. 05:20:55 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61339&oldid=61334 * A * (+98) /* A (quite weird) idea about programming GNU nano, the text editor */ 05:26:43 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 05:27:00 -!- Frater_EST has left. 06:15:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:21:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:45:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:54:32 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 06:54:42 -!- Frater_EST has left. 07:28:14 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 07:28:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 07:36:21 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 07:36:32 -!- Frater_EST has left. 08:49:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:56:12 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 09:15:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:16:57 @metar ENVA 09:16:58 ENVA 240850Z 15017G27KT CAVOK 17/M02 Q1019 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 18028KT 09:17:05 springy 09:19:28 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:21:09 -!- rain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:57:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:15:44 -!- DamZ has joined. 10:16:11 Hi 10:17:03 leave 10:17:07 -!- DamZ has left. 11:49:08 -!- Frater_EST has left. 12:27:42 I find the "bag of sentences" aspect of the baba is you language fascinating 12:28:12 the sentences are completely unordered, meaning that the same effect regardless of where they are 12:28:16 they have the same effect* 12:28:30 i think this would be difficult to implement 12:29:00 maybe a good way to implement it would be with something like a logic sat solver 12:29:18 that would ensure the effect of the rules respects the lack of ordering 12:45:12 -!- Frater_EST has joined. 12:45:21 -!- Frater_EST has left. 13:25:27 -!- MDude has joined. 15:21:50 So what happens to X's if in one move you construct both "X is Y" and "X is Z" rules? 15:28:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:33:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:36:37 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:39:34 fizzie: oh geez I dunno. rules can be blocked by other rules. "BaBa is BaBa" blocks "BaBa is key" for example 16:39:53 I need to play that game more 16:45:50 fizzie: you're on to something 16:50:39 fizzie: I'm not sure either 16:51:15 the interesting one I learned yesterday is that 'box is text' will turn every box into the text 'box' 16:51:24 so it's like a quotation operator 16:51:43 admittedly not that useful because now you have no boxes left to refer to 16:56:28 useful here though: (spoiler) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pdFaCNrdhg 16:57:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:58:13 -!- adu has left. 17:32:12 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 17:45:08 kmc: have you discovered words yet? 17:48:19 what do you mean 17:48:35 that's a no then 17:48:43 :P 17:51:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:04 [[The Genius from Kiev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=61340 * Areallycoolusername * (+2425) Created page with "'''The Genius From Kiev''' is a series of esoteric programming languages made by [[User: Areallycoolusername|Areallycoolusername]] to be the exact opposite of The Amnesiac F..." 17:57:15 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61341&oldid=60982 * Areallycoolusername * (+27) 17:57:39 [[User:Areallycoolusername]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=61342&oldid=61341 * Areallycoolusername * (+0) /* Full List of languages I Made */ 17:58:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:22:17 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:25:56 -!- Melvar has joined. 18:39:37 fizzie: if you have X is Y is Z is W is X 18:39:50 the result is that X becomes Y in one turn, and then Y becomes Z 18:40:29 how about a #esoteric-baba 18:40:35 you're spoiling all the things 18:40:58 https://twitter.com/babaisyou_/status/1099862522075717632 18:47:10 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:59:35 -!- FreeFull has joined. 19:03:42 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lVAFcDX4eM 19:03:50 Raycasting engine in Factorio (vanilla 0.17) - Facto-RayO v1.0 19:04:28 -!- asie has quit (Quit: asie). 19:12:53 rain1: That's fine, but not what I was wondering about. 19:13:20 oh sorry i misread your question 19:14:00 did anyone have some ideas about how to implement game rules that don't care about the order? 19:15:02 Half the questions being asked here are spoilers. 19:15:37 I don't see how they're spoilers 19:15:49 none of them reference a specific level 19:16:06 I assume they're things you might not think of trying, that will be useful in a specific level. 19:16:08 The fun of the game is to figure out the rules. 19:16:22 Well, a fun of the game. 19:33:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:37:32 `? oerjan 19:37:34 Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty eldrazi grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 19:41:52 -!- oerjan has set topic: Spoiler is ban | Welcome to the international stock market for esoteric programming language invention, implementation, ignorance, innovation, and integration! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 19:42:59 . o O ( should that be capitalized ) 19:43:57 `? baba 19:43:59 baba? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:44:19 hmm that's case sensitive, isn't it... 19:45:02 no. 19:45:31 `learn BABA IS ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:45:34 Learned 'baba': BABA IS ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:00:26 -!- adu has joined. 20:04:11 rain1: I think a unification engine would do it? 20:04:24 i dont think so 20:06:08 isn't it basically just a set of x = y rules? 20:06:15 with no internal variables 20:06:45 shachaf: did you say there are some nondeterministic rules? 20:10:16 Yes. 20:11:50 how's that work? 20:14:36 One instance is zhygvcyr GRYR gnetrgf naq nabgure vafgnapr vf bevragngvba bs RZCGL VF K 20:43:30 -!- dingwat has joined. 21:10:05 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:12:18 I haven't encountered RZCGL VF K 21:12:30 sounds p. exciting 21:12:59 -!- sftp has joined. 21:14:10 shachaf: did you know that there are sprites for NAAVR walking? 21:17:10 I didn't. Sounds like the best. 21:17:28 Also I have to rot13 in my head now since I'm at my phone. 21:17:40 ouch. 21:17:53 Though I guess that one wasn't do bad. 21:18:34 I mean, this is my rot13 program: tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m... so a and n are easy :) 21:19:28 I played the demo a long time ago. I think ORFG was in there. 21:19:37 Though it may have been KEKE 21:19:39 just make sure you don't become so good at rot13 in your head you cannot avoid decoding it 21:20:36 sounds dangerous 21:20:48 we'll have to go to rot14 21:21:28 shachaf: yes, orfg was there. 21:23:06 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:23:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 21:26:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:32:01 You played the demo? 21:32:34 . o O ( SHACHAF is YOU. ) 21:32:48 * int-e didn't play the demo. 21:34:14 But you have information regarding the existence of orfg 21:35:48 shachaf: it features in a level in the release, but is inaccessible as far as I can tell. 21:37:32 j 21:37:37 Oh. 21:37:59 I mean the demo has KEKE IS BEST or something like that 21:38:36 Lonely Flag is the level (rocket area) 21:39:09 <3 there's a walkthrough so I'm not tempted to reinstall the game. 21:41:50 BABA IS BEST 21:42:26 Oh, it's NAAV 21:44:12 yeah, my bad. 21:44:18 * int-e IS NOT BEST. 22:09:05 i'm writing a mitm inspection tool for mosh 22:09:31 nice thing about UDP is you can restart the MITM without restarting the client or the server! 22:09:35 mosh just interprets it as a bout of packet loss 22:14:16 hmm, if you index a python3 bytestring you get an int and not a 1-byte bytestring 22:14:21 i guess that's reasonable, but it was a bit surprising 22:17:44 * kmc is slowly but surely getting her programming mojo back 22:20:51 madness 22:21:34 kmc: Hmm does that do anything useful to an attacker without knowing the underlying key? I guess timing packets is of some interest... After a brief look, learning the key itself should be hard (unless you MITM the initial ssh connection as well, at least) 22:22:04 it could be useful for timing and packet-length analysis, although you can observe that passively 22:22:10 and it could also be useful for fuzzing 22:22:15 but i'm not making it for security purposes 22:22:22 okay, just wondering :) 22:22:37 one thing I can do with this is drop packets or add lag as desired 22:22:52 anyway it's the first step of my crazy scheme to run mosh over long distance shortwave radio 22:23:37 Oh you are making a proxy/tunnel in the end. :) 22:23:49 yes 22:24:14 also I will be removing the encryption to comply with ham radio rules 22:24:25 my interpretation of the rules is that it's okay to keep the authentication tag 22:24:30 but I expect to have people argue with me about this 22:24:38 since armchair rules lawyering is an important part of ham radio 22:26:14 https://i.imgur.com/ffKr7Xo.png 22:26:19 (this is still encrypted for the time being) 22:28:55 heh, now I'm pondering the meaning of TL9H1MPF 22:29:21 I *think* I've figured out the "LAPTOP" part of it though. :) 22:29:48 I think it's just some hash that is assigned when you set up windows 22:30:19 this thing is called moshmodem 22:31:11 because it will translate UDP packets into audio output from your sound card, and audio input from the sound card into UDP packets 22:31:30 I'm not sure what modulation scheme to use, probably something simple and dumb at first 22:31:37 8-tone FSK with a start tone, or something 22:32:29 fortunately mosh already has a checksum and handles dropped or corrupted packets 22:32:37 but I expect to get a lot of retransmits at that rate 22:32:42 which will reduce the already dismal data rate 22:32:57 so I think some FEC would be called for, and modulation with better processing gain 22:33:36 Also the first 8 bytes of the packets (sequence numbers) don't look encrypted... can you cause trouble there? But maybe not, if these numbers are part of the message authentication. 22:33:56 It still feels wrong to have them in plain sight like that, to me. 22:34:03 I think you can already run Mosh over AX.25, but that's a bunch of complexity and setup hassle that isn't really necessary 22:34:09 my scheme won't involve a network stack per se 22:34:21 int-e: it is a sequence number, which is also the nonce for AES-OCB 22:34:47 you can estimate the lifetime of a mosh session from there. 22:39:01 this is true 22:39:08 you could use random nonces instead 22:39:12 if the ocb nonce is long enough, i forget 22:39:19 you'd still need a sequence number, but could encrypt it 22:43:58 "a given key should be used to encrypt at most 2^48 blocks" <-- maybe not a concern for this particular use :) 22:44:20 there's actually code in there to abort the session if you hit that limit 22:44:48 Fun. 22:45:32 Oh well, off to bed. 22:45:43 ttyl int-e 22:46:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:12:10 "We deem it unlikely that a legitimate user will send 4 PB through a Mosh session. If it happens, we simply kill the session. The server and client use the same key, so we actually need to die after 2^47 blocks." 23:18:47 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:22:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:22:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:26:47 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).