< 1553558570 13566 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1553558589 223797 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1553560111 346478 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1553560494 800202 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1553560677 87047 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1553560677 474134 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1553560958 777769 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1553562749 297100 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh i hate web pages that steal clicks such that you accidentally follow a link when trying to do something else < 1553562843 790011 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of porn sites do that < 1553562893 880103 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it was SE's chat archive, of all things < 1553562900 976579 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I generally disable scripts and alter CSS if necessary, so mostly is avoiding that; maybe there are other ways to make up the setting for events to control that < 1553562942 268341 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible i actually accidentally clicked twice. < 1553562971 179774 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One feature I would like is the ability to replace individual scripts on a webpage with my own versions.) < 1553562974 692902 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i was selecting a link with the right button to copy it, and ended up following it.) < 1553563001 761659 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading a site that used hot pink text on white background :( < 1553563007 481200 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Including such things as replacing jQuery with my own version on any webpages that use that) < 1553563012 903106 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are other times i _do_ want the script there, when following quoting links < 1553563013 177023 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the content was actually quite good and important < 1553563022 12623 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed it with element inspector < 1553563030 793633 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wonder the best way to link it to other people < 1553563047 29258 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: i use that a lot to get rid of annoyingly large horizontal bars < 1553563054 176035 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of a way to construct a link with a custom style sheet < 1553563083 713748 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than a javascript: url that you have to visit after < 1553563093 621708 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any way either, but I do often customize CSS of other webpages (although this is usually not needed if the webpage has no CSS at all) < 1553563096 826105 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1553563099 611415 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I could host a page which shows it in an iframe < 1553563122 17280 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just mirror the content and hope to not get in copyright trouble < 1553563136 958243 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or copy the entire text into my Facebook post when I share it < 1553563148 2399 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :another solution to bad color choices is print to pdf < 1553563184 652228 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I prefer to not set any colours in making webpages, instead using the user settings; unless it needs to have some colours to indicate different kind of stuff) < 1553563372 724303 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1553563860 359403 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ais523 has on some occasions on ppcg pointed out that (hindley-milner) typed SKI calculus isn't TC, and you need Y too. but i also seem to recall something about Y _not_ being enough if you don't have arithmetic... < 1553563874 293920 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Y=fix) < 1553563923 937787 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaguely recalling something about decidable halting problem... < 1553564107 958259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i cannot seem to google this. < 1553564930 42285 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should get something to eat before he starts banning people for not answering. < 1553569567 243426 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1553569855 250801 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1553570401 492034 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind, the thing i was trying to use it for won't work anyway < 1553570522 886378 :ATMunn!ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn QUIT :Quit: lol rip < 1553573524 381210 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1553574437 242235 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1553577666 70496 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-15-213.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I partially implemented a NNTP server software, mainly, because I could not find another one that seemed suitable to my use > 1553579996 361648 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ragaraja14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60653&oldid=60587 5* 03Mauriceling 5* (+307) 10/* Description of Commands / Instructions */ > 1553582700 389396 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ragaraja14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60654&oldid=60653 5* 03Mauriceling 5* (+9077) 10Added implementation flag < 1553586296 989104 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1553586648 554616 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-stcjkqkejuoyeqcw JOIN :#esoteric < 1553589872 597600 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfgz2ng38e2jxt.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1553593332 819993 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1553595127 240464 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1553596022 980303 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ragaraja14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60655&oldid=60654 5* 03Mauriceling 5* (+160) 10/* References to Biology */ > 1553598801 440367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Powder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60656&oldid=60638 5* 03A 5* (+219) 10Add purpose > 1553598855 152751 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Powder14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60657&oldid=60656 5* 03A 5* (+3) 10And sorry for making a small edit > 1553599616 308991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60658&oldid=59708 5* 03Tromp 5* (+106) 10add interpreter written in lambda calculus < 1553600665 96833 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1553600725 193346 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1553603729 820336 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1553603914 481 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1553603914 418636 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life > 1553606383 269099 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60659 5* 03Arcorann 5* (+1749) 10Created page with "'''A''' is a programming language that uses only the letter A in its source code. Its creation year is uncertain but no later than 2008. == Description == A program with les..." > 1553606584 472660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60660&oldid=60659 5* 03Arcorann 5* (+11) 10/* See also */ > 1553606808 975773 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07A14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60661&oldid=60660 5* 03Arcorann 5* (+28) 10 < 1553607625 93263 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-stcjkqkejuoyeqcw QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1553612473 639850 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dolwoxphxypnrioj JOIN :#esoteric < 1553612513 653635 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1553612645 595927 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfgz2ng38e2jxt.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1553612886 69357 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1553614409 36523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1553614644 305489 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realized an intuitive argument for why (simply/hindley-milner) typed SKIY isn't TC without infinite "basis" types: without them, the number of functions of every type you can construct is finite, so you can solve the halting problem by explicitly evaluating their CPO denotations. < 1553614700 971044 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still would like to remember the reference someone gave to this before, though. < 1553614738 182490 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/every/each/ < 1553614859 784521 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, it's not turing complete but it has programs that diverge? < 1553614924 265668 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, e.g. YI < 1553614937 371988 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is just f x=f x) < 1553614943 238555 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 JOIN :#esoteric < 1553614978 925469 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let f x=f x in f < 1553614980 60038 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :t1 -> t2 < 1553614984 761255 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: R. Statman, "The λY calculus" shows that the word problem is decidable for that calculus. < 1553615022 689303 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1553615038 834346 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that does seem like the same thing. < 1553615050 527327 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well no < 1553615066 947259 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i am looking for sounds wearker than that < 1553615083 728014 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, wait, I'm misrepresenting this < 1553615109 506884 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the halting problem is decidable; the word problem is decidable if Y is restricted to a single type (o -> o) -> o. < 1553615114 872074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in general. < 1553615154 339015 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1553615163 2262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I get the finiteness angle though; even the simply typed lamda calculus has infinitely many inhabitants of (o -> o) -> o -> o. < 1553615186 553684 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it doesn't for a specific o of finite size < 1553615228 102273 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yes it does: all church numerals have that type. < 1553615236 585448 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1553615242 465511 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I see. < 1553615252 929369 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan's talking about models. < 1553615254 907746 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the church numerals collapse < 1553615265 457837 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the "CPO" didn't fully register) < 1553615280 972336 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's, like, three or four functions of type (() -> ()) -> () -> () < 1553615287 349360 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a particular set, only finitely many of them are unequal. < 1553615292 61575 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*finite set < 1553615338 611406 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure whether this helps; the calculus operates on terms, and the main problem is distinguishing terms representing _|_ from everything else. < 1553615358 835057 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(id, const id, const (const _|_)) < 1553615389 692677 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: for solving the halting problem, though, all you need is to evaluate with all the free variables = () < 1553615395 699257 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*type variables < 1553615402 759114 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Bool if you like that better < 1553615430 209560 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm I need to think about this... it sounds too good to be true. < 1553615588 317034 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is your "basis type" terminology standard? < 1553615792 590607 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course my reference has the annoying problem that SKI and lambda calculus are not perfectly aligned.) < 1553616146 341999 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: not that i know of < 1553616204 248071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: denotationally they are, i should think < 1553616246 10632 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i got to thinking about because i had doubts about a proof on PPCG that haskell is TC with just ()=; < 1553616250 657124 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*about this < 1553616281 507093 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that fails for this reason < 1553616320 746791 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just the characters < 1553616500 702383 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that work at all? < 1553616602 296671 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use (======) as identifiers < 1553616610 628878 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see < 1553616709 339938 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cute < 1553616994 363399 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1553617427 128844 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(======)? nice! < 1553617450 937108 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good day everyone < 1553617473 342922 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1553617479 419452 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: could polymorphic recursion help out the proof in this case? And the fact that some terms have more than one type < 1553617895 712857 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on an unrelated subject: I have an idea to make something akin to Metamath but with more structured approach: there would still be metavariables of user-declared sorts, but formulas would be no simple strings, but terms of these sorts, and there would be language support for bound variables. Term constructors would be user-declared, and to declare binders, the language basically contains lambda-calculus, but terms of arbitrary sorts aren’t allowed, < 1553617895 832178 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I hope their unification will be decidable < 1553617983 741002 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you need a type signature for polymorphic recursion, although i'm not sure if that's enough for TC-ness < 1553618043 725130 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: i don't think more than one type helps, because you can always duplicated definition to avoid using that. < 1553618076 879802 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but eg. (===)(====)=(====) has an infinite number of types < 1553618112 889373 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but you'll only ever use a finite number when running a program < 1553618138 899075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ghc defaults types to Any as i recall) < 1553618157 48843 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without polymorphic recursion) < 1553618236 13181 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unrestricted types < 1553618244 584668 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1553618254 297540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1553618311 902281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be possible to make it TC by adding a few specific primitives, such as three list primitives and while < 1553618339 161381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, probably even arithmetic and while is enough, as you say < 1553618381 579097 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although while has a generic type < 1553618428 285372 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh hi, that reminds me, you remember the PPCG challenge for making several quines with no characters in common, and how you suggested 3 might be possible in perl? Jo King made such an answer in perl 6 https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/181246/ < 1553618439 881134 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whoa < 1553618442 401077 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIX? < 1553618449 229135 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, "perl 6" < 1553618452 328631 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1553618454 772249 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1553618454 811809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1553618475 532184 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1553618483 880592 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i believe ():;1- is TC < 1553618492 813837 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the haskell) < 1553618510 190236 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how does that work? how do you make functions? < 1553618517 186230 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1553618526 572202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo, ()=;1- < 1553618531 559415 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1553618543 728641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that works, but that's at least more believable < 1553618568 664107 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1553618570 421711 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1-(-1) < 1553618572 212745 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 < 1553618575 68724 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1553618577 369752 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just make recursive function definitions < 1553618592 941589 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :named functions, refering to themselves by name < 1553618597 238396 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you said above with (===) < 1553618603 582955 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best thing is, you can now comment your code < 1553618608 539099 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been trying to think of a version with 5 chars but i cannot make it work < 1553618611 14307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :only now you can use - too, so you get a slightly more conveient character set < 1553618611 907347 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: yeay < 1553618681 642118 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: could you use ()=;: and use lists terminated by some special value consed with undef? < 1553618686 166986 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of arithmetic that is < 1553618707 775949 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, lists of true and false, with the tail being undef < 1553618780 557617 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, ()=;:' should work < 1553618790 20443 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: apostrophe? < 1553618795 709451 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for char literals < 1553618805 204430 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you need char literals? < 1553618826 895654 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, just use two different well-typed functions to represent true and false < 1553618833 78578 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shortest way to get something to put in the lists that you can distinguish two values of < 1553618841 974481 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mytrue x y = x; myfalse x y = y; < 1553618843 415068 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1553618850 362328 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then just call them to distinguish them < 1553618853 467860 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: oh maybe that does work < 1553618863 910052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell rules again, so those will be polymorphic functions < 1553618888 991846 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that may give trouble with the original obstruction... < 1553618894 163434 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00bc52c3c502252404.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1553618908 760720 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they won't be polymorphic in a particular list < 1553618950 480471 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it's close enough... < 1553618957 24592 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm < 1553618974 263895 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ... < 1553618991 945524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1553618998 658641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1553619060 697123 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1553619079 175189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you may be able to help with this discussion < 1553619120 758681 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan was thinking of how he could choose a small set of characters so that Haskell with the source code containing just those characters is a turing-complete language < 1553619146 237509 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: see the top answer on the PPCG question about Turing-complete subsets of languages' character sets < 1553619147 571967 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :he threw in the idea that the four characters ()=; lets you define functions with names like (=====) and arguments with such names too < 1553619158 378010 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe (=); is the character set chosen, yes < 1553619159 750829 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I think that's what spawned this < 1553619166 59954 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan says that it's not clear if that works < 1553619169 957165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I agree with him < 1553619171 645748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm starting to have doubts about whether SKI+fix is enough < 1553619185 699898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a strongly typed language < 1553619187 510805 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oerjan is convinced that it isn't < 1553619214 128615 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, we have more than SKI+fix here; we have the entirety of typed lambda calculus + recursion < 1553619343 63305 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but that's just really syntactic sugar over SKIY < 1553619373 246421 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I guess you're right and ()=;:' or ()=;:1 should be enough < 1553619435 620035 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :typed church lists are a bit complicated aren't they < 1553619440 93016 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a weirder idea i had was x"|>=; < 1553619441 102518 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type of the list encodes the types of its elements? < 1553619456 897540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally without the |, so it was my best idea for getting 5 < 1553619458 651236 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably can't make a homogeneously-typed list without some kind of injection type :/ < 1553619475 388554 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how does that work? < 1553619493 744301 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "xxx">"xxxx" < 1553619495 777551 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : False < 1553619520 325649 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not entirely sure it works, but you have monadic operations >>= and >> and comparisons == > >= < 1553619535 778877 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to write fib with (=); for a while and gave up, but it's probably doable < 1553619539 846767 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but how do you define functions or call functions or something? you have no space or parens < 1553619542 14091 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :got into some occurs check hell < 1553619564 355549 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: x""xx=xxx>>=xxxx < 1553619570 323880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like that < 1553619572 935027 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1553619576 669918 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding type signatures to figure it out is tricky because a church numeral should be type Church = forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a, but that doesn't fly in vanilla Haskell < 1553619577 596478 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dummy string argument < 1553619579 996373 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1553619594 667484 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't thought that one all through though < 1553619599 877377 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about ()\-> < 1553619612 320230 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :write lambda calculus, with names like (>>>>) < 1553619614 453396 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no recursion < 1553619620 762141 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because types < 1553619621 939224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the types again? < 1553619622 847539 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1553619639 984694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the original version of another PPCG answer < 1553619729 205194 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on a previous occasion someone, i think here, said that fix without something like integers is not enough in a typed LC (simply or hindley/milner, i'm not sure) although i've forgot the reference. int-e gave another above. < 1553619752 938653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if we could use square brackets instead of parenthesis < 1553619771 191475 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :define functions that take each argument in a single-element list < 1553619781 265373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm wondering if you can do it using the (a->a)->(a->a) type for Church numerals < 1553619791 613769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: that doesn't let you create identifiers < 1553619796 174025 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we get empty lists and one element lists "for free" < 1553619806 381469 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, that is a problem < 1553619824 318698 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that would need 5 chars < 1553619829 903735 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 6 or what < 1553619830 928575 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1553619834 825570 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[]=;x < 1553619859 181255 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :woyld that work? < 1553619861 929213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could use : rather than []? < 1553619875 83557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that might run into type issues < 1553619888 151608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd definitely be enough in an untyped language, given that you have structure, destructure, recursion < 1553619904 674292 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you need an argument separator then < 1553619911 401583 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you mean ()=;: < 1553619935 335458 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ()=;:1 works, oerjan's suggestion was ()=;:' which should work too < 1553619975 382222 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about x=;:' < 1553620035 401782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : []=;x <-- i considered that one and the problem was no way to construct larger values < 1553620082 667950 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you can't pattern match with : then < 1553620108 358751 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or apply functions < 1553620113 176523 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what do you mean by "larger values"? < 1553620139 321646 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can construct [[[[[[[]]]]]]] < 1553620154 966504 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that has no fixed type < 1553620158 745711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1553620161 73404 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1553620165 328784 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't have numbers < 1553620170 34638 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then that won't work < 1553620246 722019 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really quite awkward how 5 just seems to slip away for several different reasons < 1553620281 763313 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let x'x'xx=xx; xxx='x' in x'x'xxx < 1553620283 787066 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : error: < 1553620283 872709 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : • Variable not in scope: xx < 1553620283 912377 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : • Perhaps you meant one of these: < 1553620289 587946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there language options you can give to infer the type of Church numerals correctly? < 1553620304 582920 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1553620305 955642 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: alas ' is an identifier char too < 1553620306 292861 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's PPCG? < 1553620310 523261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f x->f (f (f (f x))) < 1553620311 606430 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :(t -> t) -> t -> t < 1553620316 737108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: codegolf.stackexchange.com < 1553620327 925832 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: isn'tr x'x'xx a single variable? < 1553620328 93630 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres pp from < 1553620332 614281 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ...so why not x=;:" < 1553620333 304372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly the world's largest users of esolangs? < 1553620342 291000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: ppcg = programming puzzles and code golf < 1553620342 447603 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::i x'x'xx < 1553620353 104805 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type x'x'xx < 1553620353 683778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they basically gave up on the programming puzzles quite early on, the name didn't change < 1553620354 264544 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :error: Variable not in scope: x'x'xx < 1553620369 805492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oddly, puzzling.stackexchange.com are typically quite willing to do programming puzzles) < 1553620422 941366 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: inferring the type of Church numerals would be ImpredicativeTypes, a ghc extension which probably never quite worked for that and has languished so long it's now essentially unsupported and broken for nearly everything. < 1553620440 940507 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and puzzling.stackexchange.com has very few questions about creating puzzles, it's almost all questions that are puzzle < 1553620459 6551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: questions about creating and solving puzzles are ontopic but rarely asked < 1553620466 899742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yep < 1553620484 133054 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> let add a b f x = a f (b f x); zero f x = x; one f x = f x; fibs n a b = n b (add a b); fibz a b = a; fib n = n fibs fibz zero one in let church n f x = iterate f x !! n; int n = n succ 0 in map (int . fib . church) [0..10] < 1553620486 122339 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55] < 1553620492 130987 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: ...so why not x=;:" <-- no pattern matching of : in function arguments < 1553620501 972861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I discovered recently, even Stack Overflow has a similar issue; it was intended to be a collaborative build-an-FAQ site for programming but turned into a help-me-debug-this site < 1553620532 871218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesn't it still have lots of FAQ though? < 1553620542 664012 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check < 1553620545 594713 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: nah, they just get closed for duplicaiton ;P < 1553620551 616533 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: aargh < 1553620554 7167 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't visit SO much, it's just too large for me < 1553620554 380333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, there are still plenty of those around, mostly from earlier in the site's history < 1553620607 395937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they added a new ask-a-question wizard recently which insists that you post code samples < 1553620616 216461 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's optional, but it excludes basically any FAQ from being asked when used < 1553620648 82098 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, you seem to be right < 1553620701 455961 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :such a nice type: fib::(((((a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->(a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->(a->a)->a->a)->(((a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->(a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->((a->a)->a->a)->(a->a)->a->a)->(a->a)->a->a < 1553620804 329340 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1553620816 352362 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so fib exists. < 1553620820 648630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: does that example show that SKIY is in fact TC in a typed lazy language? < 1553620829 93231 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose primitive recursion is probably possible, then. < 1553620886 131705 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if a is a finite type, you can only distinguish finitely many fib types. < 1553620889 865999 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no. fib is primitive recursive. note that Y is not even used. < 1553620889 959221 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: um, but can you get rid of the iterate and (!!) things? < 1553620897 411377 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: they're just for testing < 1553620902 167087 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, values < 1553620939 389615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so you're saying that even without them you can at least get primitive recursion, even deeper than the single exponential that fib does? < 1553620949 696874 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: The first let defines a fibonacci function (of sorts); The second let defines conversions between Church numerals and Int. < 1553620988 894049 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yes, if you're willing to use sufficiently big types for the church numerals. < 1553621003 902035 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1553621032 374461 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren’t Church numerals basically unfolders? (so, primitive recursion) < 1553621033 492261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so the technique int-e used above is limited to primitive recursion, because its only control flow structure is the while loop < 1553621043 491711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, the for loop < 1553621061 103815 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or I remember it wrong, and some other numerals are unfolders) < 1553621080 712688 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe Church—Scott if it means a different thing) < 1553621109 60755 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a result that Church numerals at type (o -> o) -> o -> o gives you something called extended polynomials only (in simply typed lambda calculus; no Y). < 1553621136 969629 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zfgz2ng38e2jxt.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1553621139 412525 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, EU copyright thing thing, just have to mention it on the channel, would be strange if nobody did < 1553621187 282396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the article 11 / article 13 thing? < 1553621200 392776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, or the whole vote and stuff < 1553621212 974244 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the article 13 thing that got renumbered < 1553621216 445427 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not 100% convinced those are bad ideas; at least, most of the examples that people have brought up as to why they're bad, I disagree with, however they may be bad for other reasons < 1553621248 324228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer a comprehensive reform to copyright law rather than just enforcing it < 1553621252 424066 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the renumbering was a normal part of the process. < 1553621266 151912 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure < 1553621307 197353 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the renumbering is so they can publish the text of the law without the content filters kicking them off because it mentions "article 13" < 1553621320 852274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what content filters? < 1553621357 689622 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the ones that people say article 13 requires in the sense that it makes content hosters more responsible for the content of third-party materials that they host < 1553621389 548496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which hosters can only enforce by automatic real-time content filters to accept or reject third-party content < 1553621424 445402 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't like article 13 mainly because I expect that youtubers will regularly run into their own videos being blocked by an automatic filter, without any reasonable course of remedy... those videos cost time and effort, and often money, to produce, so it will discourage that particular way of producing content. It may not actually happen but I believe that's a true risk. < 1553621440 430237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: this is already the case on YouTube nowadays < 1553621449 643887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has an automatic filter, and it does cause problems < 1553621461 668751 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think it's relevant for youtube, because youtube is the site that already wants automated content filters, and would do it anyway regardless of that law < 1553621477 753840 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and that will become worse. So this is another step in the wrong direction. < 1553621478 598712 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more relevant for other sites < 1553621521 862121 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, other sites will be forced to implement filters at the "industry standard" which will be defined by the likes of Google and Facebook. Yay. < 1553621541 636012 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((( < 1553621549 431561 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, one of the main problems with YouTube's filters at the moment is people falsely claiming to have copyright on things and fooling the input to the filter < 1553621562 163411 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it will turn someday < 1553621562 634957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the people making the false claims end up getting all the ad revenue < 1553621586 810830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a reform made that sort of claim illegal, then it would improve the current situation for youtube-like sites < 1553621608 47850 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1553621651 517265 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw someone interested in that Metamath-like thing?) < 1553621653 314056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, but what happens to sites that aren't as large as youtube, but also aren't too tiny, and have third-party content? < 1553621672 295791 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1553621699 838989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, isn't that sort of claim already illegal? < 1553621717 822790 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main beneficiants of the directive will be publishers and right holder's organization; to some extend Google and Facebook... creators will largely lose out slightly (more if the optional Article 16 (previously 12) is implemented), and creators who currently rely on youtube and other content sharing platforms to distribute their material. < 1553621719 164842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no, it would be if it were a DMCA claim, but YouTube's filters allow non-DMCA claim < 1553621727 750977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, DMCA claims have huge loopholes in them < 1553621758 475512 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm < 1553621786 45979 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll see in a couple of years how bad it'll actually be. < 1553621871 894851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my point of view, there surely has to be a better situation then a) ridiculously strict copyright rules existing and b) those same rules rarely being enforced < 1553621881 985135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that leaves law-abiding people at a major disadvantage < 1553621883 299438 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What really irks me is that instead of a healthy debate we got stuck on the level of name-calling... both sides accusing the other of having no clue (which, to some extent, is true, because this is a clash of different cultures.) < 1553621906 455829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the EU's sugested fix probably isn't a very good one, but the situation needs fixing, so I'm at least happy that it's being discussed < 1553621909 350848 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for finding a small set of characters that induce a TC subset of a language, that's somewhat similar to finding the smallest set of controller buttons with which you can complete a video game, as in, super mario speedwalks and the like < 1553621914 206500 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the right word actually... "beneficiaries"? < 1553621945 559998 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I agree... and in fact it was quite funny how the #Yes2Copyright hashtag was adopted by both sides of this campaign. < 1553621961 17306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it seems the latter, yes < 1553621971 722033 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(beneficiaries) < 1553621981 559340 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not really a good enough argument for any particular new law though < 1553622048 360115 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :laws seem to look as a sort of code, usually of very bad maintainability, suspicious correctness and the like < 1553622060 540120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: well, any potential change in the law, other than outright removing copyright (which seems very unlikely to help), will have to come with better enforcement < 1553622074 427160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this may be a first step that leads to wider reform < 1553622144 633685 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if “better code is less code”, yeah, one shouldn’t make new laws on every occasion, even if there’s some demand for a code solving/enabling a particular thing (because rarely there are no demand) < 1553622275 907961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I still don't think that really addresses the debate. sure something has to be done, but nobody really said that nothing should be done, they just had complaints about the specific law < 1553622358 989378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: most of the attacks I've seen have been against the basic idea of the articles in question; it is entirely possible that the idea is good but the details are bad < 1553622396 494127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But look at how people dealt with the advent of photocopiers, floppies, recordable CDs, big USB devices... AFAIK there's no enforcement there. In Germany, instead a part of the sales price goes to right holders' organizations. It's not ideal (in particular those organizations hold quite a lot of power as a result) but it's *very* unintrusive. Content sharing platforms are a different... < 1553622402 505437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...beast, of course, but some trade-off between enforcement and a collective pool of money (with various options for sources... consumer end (ISPs) or content sharing provider end...) should be possible. < 1553622444 692483 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sending part of a sales price to right holders' organizations should imply that copying data owned by those right holders is not copyright infringement < 1553622462 884671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then it makes sense < 1553622483 223408 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'd like to see data. How much of the content on Youtube is there illegally? I would like to know that from both sides... uploads and views. < 1553622531 18629 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that would be hard to tell, because the content that is known to be illegal is taken down so wouldn't be in the statistics, and the ones that aren't known to be illegal are hard to count < 1553622622 315989 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can also imagine tweaks to Article 17 (13) that would make it much nicer to youtubers: rather than blocking an upload directly, what if the platform has the option to tell the user why it would be blocked, and let them override that decision, in which case liability reverts back to the user? This probably requires that the user be properly identified, but anyone who monetizes their channel... < 1553622625 590294 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dolwoxphxypnrioj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1553622628 552437 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...probably has shared their address with the provider anyway. < 1553622715 575550 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The directive has provisions for disputing infringement claims; it even mandates that a human be involved in that process. I don't see how platforms can implement this in an affordable way so I expect those processes to be very slow and convoluted.) < 1553622758 396686 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So the point of my idea above is that it can easily be fully automated.) < 1553623165 20094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "what proportion of YouTube" is a hard question, because there are probably huge numbers of videos that are hardly ever viewed < 1553623173 503369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people using it as a backup for family photos, or whatever < 1553623199 301098 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's why I want the statistics for views as well < 1553623205 188490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe asking about the proportion of YouTube /views/ is more interesting, in which case I expect the vast majority to be of copyrighted content, but often with the implicit permission of the content's owner < 1553623229 218571 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are probably the more relevant ones anyway, but both uploads and views are interesting) < 1553623237 839956 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of record labels post their music officially < 1553623245 89757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even explicit-but-global permission (e.g. many computer games give permission to upload videos of the game on YouTube) < 1553623249 67296 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get royalties < 1553623267 481928 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, views are the more relevant, because the uploads just scale with how quickly youtube recognizes and removes the illegal content, at which point the uploader reuploads a modified version of it < 1553623276 701202 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yes. and it's also good advertisement, especially for lesser known artists. < 1553623290 807115 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah < 1553623298 599030 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found quite a bit of music there that I listen to all the time now < 1553623345 841006 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a tangential note, this is some amazing guitar work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISS2SrHxKI4 < 1553623359 714943 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't have thought it possible to do an acoustic guitar cover of a drum&bass song, but not only is it possible it's amazing < 1553623399 901134 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION listens again > 1553624403 145930 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60662&oldid=46854 5* 03Koyodyne 5* (+25) 10Fixed some information about identity morphisms > 1553624441 407480 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60663&oldid=60662 5* 03Koyodyne 5* (+0) 10replaced a typo > 1553624526 645668 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60664&oldid=60663 5* 03Koyodyne 5* (+2) 10replaced auspicious "set" with "class" < 1553624623 147019 :ZM!4db798bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.183.152.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1553624679 657875 :ZM!4db798bb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.183.152.187 QUIT :Client Quit < 1553627363 84072 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1553627534 946758 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1553631020 245454 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60665&oldid=60664 5* 03Koyodyne 5* (+534) 10Added a section on higher categories > 1553631124 841848 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60666&oldid=60665 5* 03Koyodyne 5* (+20) 10Added a section on higher categories > 1553632113 821982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Category theory14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60667&oldid=60666 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+23) 10Add category so this is linked from somewhere < 1553632301 968498 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1553632372 480696 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1553632423 693356 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is actually very nice. If I’d known that article needs some attention… < 1553632463 791129 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone be prepared, this weekend we'll have the timezone offset change in most of Europe, then on Monday we'll have SIGBOVIK < 1553632477 150106 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(should I add about semicategories, the ones without identity morphisms?) < 1553632574 588225 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, a link to nLab should be really sufficient < 1553633184 107450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: categories are general enough as it is, why would you need to make them more general? :-D < 1553633213 393824 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm not convinced category theory is an esolang; it's fairly eso but not very lang < 1553633365 960778 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it’s a bit hard to use them for me because of that. Though there are so-called internal languages, but e. g. for arbitrary category there isn’t really anything interesting to have in that language, and I even don’t know if it’s a thing < 1553633645 733903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ and also about the first I’d say “because of Haskell”, but there seemed to be a more specific answer I’ve forgot < 1553633670 229694 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Haskell is in no relation to that AFAIR < 1553633686 573831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Haskell is fairly close to category theory as a programming language < 1553633688 246094 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it’s a universal argument, I should admit < 1553633693 295717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not at all the same thing, but the same ideas get used in both < 1553633693 831968 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1553633700 340619 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree < 1553633808 779182 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@136.169.211.107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only I’d get more of Edward Kmett’s packages... hm no forget it < 1553637084 681542 :kmc!~beehive@li521-214.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the point of category that the same ideas get used in /everything/ < 1553637589 647722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it lets you translate theorems from one context to another < 1553637647 958684 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my PhD used a categorical result to prove that the compiler I'd defined from the syntax of a language to its semantics was consistent, in the sense that sometimes it would match the same program in multiple different ways, but it'd produce the same result in each case < 1553637660 168511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is known as a "coherence" result, in category theory) < 1553637677 166265 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1553638285 547442 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :!card-by-name Soulcatchers' Aerie < 1553638299 489720 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Soulcatchers' Aerie < 1553638300 929250 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soulcatchers' Aerie \ 1W \ Enchantment \ Whenever a Bird is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, put a feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ Bird creatures get +1/+1 for each feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ JUD-U < 1553638590 223257 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ could that work instead of Noxious Ghoul in an M:tG implementation of Waterfall Model? < 1553638605 168995 :fractal!~fractal@unaffiliated/scounder JOIN :#esoteric < 1553638630 421149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you need a -/- effect somewhere; Noxious Ghoul is only used as an easily triggerable -/- effect in the The Waterfall Model impl < 1553638635 235155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Noxious Ghoul < 1553638636 110139 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noxious Ghoul \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie \ 3/3 \ Whenever Noxious Ghoul or another Zombie enters the battlefield, all non-Zombie creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. \ LGN-U, HOP-U < 1553638648 347723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could use a damage effect instead < 1553638668 66206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, what's that effect which pings everything when a creature ETBs called? < 1553638672 4651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name pandemonium < 1553638672 766803 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pandemonium \ 3R \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, that creature's controller may have it deal damage equal to its power to any target of their choice. \ EX-R, TSP-S < 1553638685 231073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, would need to be global, so not that < 1553638772 68560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forerunner of the Empire almost works but it's a "may" ability < 1553638779 10643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name forerunner of the empire < 1553638779 934168 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forerunner of the Empire \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/3 \ When Forerunner of the Empire enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a Dinosaur card, reveal it, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it. \ Whenever a Dinosaur enters the battlefield under your control, you may have Forerunner of the Empire deal 1 damage to each creature. \ RIX-U < 1553638791 872442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can use a protection-from-color effect to make it selective) < 1553638797 662689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a reason you wanted to replace noxious ghoul, anyway? < 1553638863 762150 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no reason really. I was looking for cards for a different construction, but found this one and got curious < 1553638905 275444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :soulcatcher's aerie seems like the sort of building block that might be helpful for a TCness construction, but it doesn't fit into the TWM construction directly < 1553638955 988547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could almost use it to replace Hungry Lynx but the two creature types are the same < 1553638991 945564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, because it affects newly created tokens proactively, it'd do weird things to the language semantics, it might still be TC but it wouldn't be TWM) < 1553639018 812173 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering on a construction where you have just one creature for each Waterfall counter; you somehow decrease the toughness of each creature by a constant each turn, I don't know how to do that; the opponent has a Fleet-Footed Monk with Lure to deal damage to the creature with 1 toughness each turn; < 1553639032 651763 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somehow you trigger off blocking or damage, but I also don't see how to do that < 1553639081 314459 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the advantage would be that since your creatures never die or get born, they can be complicated enchanted creatures < 1553639096 138092 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can have rules text on them, or on enchantments on them < 1553639113 621464 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which allows a larger selection of cards, but I don't find the right card needed here < 1553639124 840758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the existing construction has one creature per counter, though < 1553639145 9587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses a lot of other creatures for triggered abilities but the fact that they're creatures is irrelevant, it'd work almost as well with them as enchantments < 1553639156 988611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not quite as well because the existing setup has no way to wish for enchantments, so they'd have to be maindecked) < 1553639159 734816 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but don't those creatures die and get recreated as tokens? < 1553639167 944048 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, what I'd like here is that those creatures never die < 1553639171 679614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1553639173 399145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead they linger at toughness 1 or 3 < 1553639178 845596 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want to use tokens anyway because of deck size limits < 1553639188 13693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :above that, and get triggered when they are lowered to toughness 1 or toughness 3 < 1553639216 979505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :triggering on a specific toughness is hard < 1553639218 35146 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, they could be token copies, but you copy and enchant them once at the start < 1553639236 883358 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's what the Fleet-Footed Monk is for, and there's another card that works for toughness 3 < 1553639262 352054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name fleet-footed monk < 1553639263 209237 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fleet-Footed Monk \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Monk \ 1/1 \ Fleet-Footed Monk can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or greater. \ P1-C < 1553639271 874817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that checks power < 1553639277 451981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Goldmeadow Dodger < 1553639278 249673 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goldmeadow Dodger \ W \ Creature -- Kithkin Rogue \ 1/1 \ Goldmeadow Dodger can't be blocked by creatures with power 4 or greater. \ LRW-C < 1553639299 688730 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of creatures that trigger on dealing combat damage < 1553639316 324615 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but we're using -1/-1 or +1/+1 effects anyway, either counters or something crazy like that Soulcatcher's Aerie, because it has to survive turn changes < 1553639324 217940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we could trigger on that, rather than on /not/ dealing combat damage < 1553639341 131379 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that could work. is there an enchantment that gives a creature protection versus a creature type? < 1553639357 373770 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to give the opponent's Goldmeadow Dodger protection against everything but the one creature type < 1553639363 773772 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have one Dodger per counter < 1553639397 329619 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be easier with colors, but there's only 5 and that's not known to be enough with Waterfall < 1553639443 281139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the tunable protection cards I can see are color-based, not creature-type-based; runed halo is an exception, triggering on name, but it enchants players, not creatures < 1553639452 900152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also true-name nemesis but it's hard to count that < 1553639501 142616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there may be specific creature type protections, rather than tunable, that we can hack < 1553639507 669693 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't need tunable, they can be Evolvable < 1553639523 601650 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I'm stupid [3~ < 1553639528 658489 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Coward thing < 1553639542 275218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Boldwyr Imitator < 1553639543 165445 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1553639552 735037 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Boldwyr I < 1553639553 510948 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boldwyr Intimidator \ 5RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ Cowards can't block Warriors. \ {R}: Target creature becomes a Coward until end of turn. \ {2}{R}: Target creature becomes a Warrior until end of turn. \ FUT-U, MOR-U, CNS-U, DDS-U < 1553639568 579440 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, and a large amount of Evolution < 1553639571 352307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say, boldwyr intimidator has a different effect, but does it work for what you're looking for? < 1553639584 20987 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that should work < 1553639588 556158 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's still at least two problems < 1553639614 299216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind-of like the way my existing setup works at split-second speed; something that involves combat can't < 1553639619 373689 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is what exactly to trigger from it attacking < 1553639629 159957 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that certainly makes it easier < 1553639660 708811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know the other one. the other problem is how to damage the creatures every turn, but that's easy. there's a blue aura for it < 1553639673 544018 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Unstable Mutation < 1553639674 387009 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unstable Mutation \ U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +3/+3. \ At the beginning of the upkeep of enchanted creature's controller, put a -1/-1 counter on that creature. \ AN-C, RV-C, 4E-C, 5E-C, TSP-S < 1553639686 545094 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so now what to trigger from the Dodgers dealing damage? < 1553639694 297087 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name crackling perimeter < 1553639695 151996 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crackling Perimeter \ 1R \ Enchantment \ Tap an untapped Gate you control: Crackling Perimeter deals 1 damage to each opponent. \ GTC-U < 1553639700 443437 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or combat damage < 1553639703 43944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't remember the trigger on that one < 1553639706 864400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought it hit creatures < 1553639716 804726 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a card that hits every creature once-per-turn, but I guess copied auras could also work? < 1553639779 36417 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I expect most of those would deal damage, not -1/-1, although you could perhaps animate something and give it infest < 1553639782 39111 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :infect < 1553639784 515291 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in... < 1553639786 940085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, which one is it? < 1553639796 555843 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :infect < 1553639808 444017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wither also works < 1553639810 511088 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infest is an instant < 1553639838 92971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I'm used to toughness being the only relevant stat, but your construction triggers on power < 1553639859 520498 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will probably go hand in hand < 1553639913 569511 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was also wondering if we can somehow make our creatures actually die from dropped toughness, but respawn < 1553639948 902307 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't seem easy to make that scale < 1553639958 704608 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's basically what the existing construction does < 1553640009 723101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it recreates a token < 1553640019 59084 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas I wanted to reanimate the same creature < 1553640022 827825 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't work < 1553640026 179089 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bad idea < 1553640039 604494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't work with many creatures, it needs actual cards, and possibly even then it won't work < 1553640098 21131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects lose their identity when changing zones, that's one of the most fundamental rules of magic < 1553640109 975179 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one creature which keeps counters when changing zones, I think, but it's definitely a special case < 1553640116 432061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name skullbriar < 1553640117 281371 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skullbriar, the Walking Grave \ BG \ Legendary Creature -- Zombie Elemental \ 1/1 \ Haste \ Whenever Skullbriar, the Walking Grave deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it. \ Counters remain on Skullbriar as it moves to any zone other than a player's hand or library. \ CMD-R < 1553640132 484336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, I didn't expect to successfully remember which one it was first try < 1553640156 81559 :LKoen_!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00b15f6d55912a31f5.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1553640185 73014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but there are ways to make a card respawn < 1553640219 771617 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't have to keep their identity if they're printed with the right creature type and the opponent has all the Evolved stuff < 1553640235 169533 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you still need as many creature cards in your deck as there are Waterfall counters, which isn't too good < 1553640243 627665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, doesn't work well < 1553640266 812482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's not keeping its identity, why do you care about whether it's a token respawning or a token being created? is the difference even observable? < 1553640279 484189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1553640287 730051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, I shouldn't care about it < 1553640296 191652 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1553640303 800620 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with tokens is that you can't bring them back from the gy < 1553640306 604643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I need cards < 1553640310 990127 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I respawn from the gy < 1553640340 98346 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00bc52c3c502252404.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1553640352 80024 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, this doesn't work well < 1553640415 525261 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing I was wondering about is < 1553640419 593558 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Ensnaring Bridge < 1553640420 639537 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ensnaring Bridge \ 3 \ Artifact \ Creatures with power greater than the number of cards in your hand can't attack. \ ST-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MPS_KLD-S, A25-M < 1553640426 396711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name gift of immortality < 1553640427 239498 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gift of Immortality \ 2W \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ When enchanted creature dies, return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control. Return Gift of Immortality to the battlefield attached to that creature at the beginning of the next end step. \ THS-R < 1553640430 36252 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus a luring creature by the opponent < 1553640442 721759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it's your creature that attacks, but only if it has low toughness < 1553640444 165266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Gift of Immortality works on tokens? but it probably works for anything else you might be doing with this < 1553640446 826101 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opponent has the Bridge < 1553640471 952320 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think that works. once the token goes to the gy, it can't move to a new zone from there < 1553640519 760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, doesn't work on tokens, but would work on creature cards < 1553640524 853359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we'd need something like Edgar Markov, but that has an attack trigger that puts a +1/+1 counter on each creature of some _other_ type than itself < 1553640541 582882 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the playtest version just said "enchanted creature can't die", but it got altered for rules and balance reasons < 1553640630 132043 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Rage Forger < 1553640631 10392 :HackEso!~HackEso@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rage Forger \ 2R \ Creature -- Elemental Shaman \ 2/2 \ When Rage Forger enters the battlefield, put a +1/+1 counter on each other Shaman creature you control. \ Whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it attacks, you may have that creature deal 1 damage to target player or planeswalker. \ MOR-U < 1553640639 831626 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, not that either < 1553640770 931434 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, my ideas don't seem to work < 1553640915 93997 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game designers aren't stupid, they don't make too many cards that form easy infinite loops < 1553640979 259801 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially not mandatory ones < 1553641082 864014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I do have a playset of Faceless Butchers in my box of blacks < 1553641161 234221 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSV (a famous magic player) once pulled off the oblivion ring infinite loop on MTGO on stream, against a real opponent, on a spur-of-the-moment decision to set it up < 1553641171 860772 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because he was curious as to what would happen (the deck wasn't built around setting it up) < 1553641217 946913 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1553641315 313271 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGO didn't handle it well, it replayed the entire game to try to figure out what had gone wrong, and then restarted it when it couldn't figure it out < 1553641377 54900 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it call a judge then? < 1553641382 897883 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did the players call one? < 1553641448 288533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTGO doesn't have judges < 1553641455 472328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it breaks you can apply for a refund, but that's abotu it < 1553641470 601494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even for tournaments with rewards? < 1553641584 625932 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01cb0407597a00080df769e349b8e1.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1553641602 204523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope; quite a few people are upset about this < 1553641609 551930 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, also, is it possible to golf this to one IRC line? < 1553641610 776653 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-24-213.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
< 1553641639 517769 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if they reach the late stages of tournament and lose out to an MTGO malfunction, getting the entry fee refunded isn't really what they were looking for < 1553641672 933083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how repeated are the colors? I was wondering if a