00:06:55 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 00:09:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 00:09:51 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 00:10:45 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:12:52 what kind of font are you making orin 00:15:22 kmc: I am working on a terminal/pixel font, 16 pixels tall and 9 or 18 pixels wide, supporting lots of unicode characters 00:15:50 kmc: http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm 00:17:10 kmc: currently supports european languages, korean, hebrew, arabic, and devanagari, as well as a lot of japanese but not all 00:17:20 that's a lot of characters 00:18:01 kmc: 21130 so far 00:18:17 and you drew each one? 00:18:34 kmc: I drew all of the non-hangul 00:18:51 kmc: which is 9958 in total 00:19:17 orin: imo why do you have yiddish text there 00:19:17 the hangul I drew the components and wrote a program to combine them 00:19:19 more ligatures? 00:20:24 shachaf: yes iirc. it's been a year since I worked on this 00:21:07 shachaf: ideally I need a sample text with the hebrew dots to demonstrate it supports them 00:21:19 nikkudots? 00:21:45 whoa, a cross-language portmanteau 00:37:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:39:34 -!- tromp has joined. 00:39:34 argh 00:40:00 . o O ( He can never remember the dontaskdonttelllist, so he put it here for convenience. ) 00:40:43 int-e: don't you run lambdabot? make your own dontaskdonttelllist hth 00:43:07 shachaf: It sometimes happens that people ask lambabot related questions via @ask/@tell, for example because they are from a channel that I'm not in. So blocking @tells to me on the lambdabot side is not really feasible. 00:43:21 @help auto-reply 00:43:21 auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message 00:44:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:45:01 It's funny that this help message spells lambdabot with a hyphen. 00:45:32 > git grep lambda-bot 00:45:32 lambdabot-social-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Social/Tell.hs: { help = say "auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message" 00:45:34 error: 00:45:34 • Variable not in scope: git :: t0 -> t1 -> a 00:45:34 • Perhaps you meant one of these: 00:45:41 @botsnack 00:45:41 :) 00:45:45 (oops0 00:45:46 ) 01:07:33 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 01:14:27 -!- digitalcold has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:14 -!- tromp has joined. 01:38:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:50:03 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Quit: Page closed). 02:32:06 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:12:40 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CNatcharian * New user account 03:15:07 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60023&oldid=59994 * CNatcharian * (+204) 03:22:35 -!- tromp has joined. 03:26:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:28:29 ok, save function is now working. need to optimize the BBX line tho 03:30:26 -!- imode has joined. 03:31:51 once that is done, I'll be ready to stop using the bloated fontforge to design my font 04:00:48 -!- arseniiv has joined. 04:17:16 -!- tromp has joined. 04:19:33 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adamthekiwi * New user account 04:23:15 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60024&oldid=60023 * Adamthekiwi * (+260) 04:23:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 04:24:45 -!- adamthekiwi has joined. 04:36:05 [[Letterbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60025 * CNatcharian * (+5476) Created the page 04:40:40 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:43:29 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60026&oldid=60017 * CNatcharian * (+16) /* L */ 04:50:22 * oerjan spots a flightless bird in the channel 05:03:25 -!- adamthekiwi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:08:01 -!- FreeFull has quit. 05:22:18 aha 05:22:32 revelation! 05:22:42 (of what?) 05:22:47 I have figured out how to correctly calculate the bounding box for a glyph in BDF format 05:23:00 and output the coreect hex codes 05:23:55 whcih means soon I can say o revwar to fontforge in favor of bdfedit.c 05:25:22 orin: but did you fix your build system yet twh 05:25:31 no 05:25:55 but none of my font revisions after this one will include fontforge's obnoxious 05:25:58 COMMENT "Generated by fontforge, http://fontforge.sourceforge.net" 05:26:05 in the font file 05:26:35 with reference to sourceforge, the notorious malware site 05:28:09 instead I will be editing my font with a glorious C terminal program 05:39:24 http://orenwatson.be/bdfedit.htm 05:39:32 still need to fully test it 05:42:41 `unicode 其 05:42:43 U+5176 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5176 \ UTF-8: e5 85 b6 UTF-16BE: 5176 Decimal: 其 \ 其 (其) \ Uppercase: U+5176 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) 05:47:37 https://imgur.com/slDzqqc 05:47:50 ^ character now drawn using bdfedit.c 05:51:36 downloaded the bdf file to verify that it is valid and the character is in fact present 05:56:33 converted to TTF using my bdf2ttf.c and vwala! it shows up in my font! 05:57:37 end to end test is great success! 05:59:23 `unicode .. 05:59:24 U+002E FULL STOP \ UTF-8: 2e UTF-16BE: 002e Decimal: . \ . \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: CS (Common Number Separator) \ \ U+002E FULL STOP \ UTF-8: 2e UTF-16BE: 002e Decimal: . \ . \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: CS (Common Number Separator) 06:06:15 -!- tromp has joined. 06:11:16 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:16:13 `unicode 😍 06:16:14 U+1F60D SMILING FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 8d UTF-16BE: d83dde0d Decimal: 😍 \ 😍 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) 06:56:05 -!- adamthekiwi has joined. 06:56:14 howdy 07:03:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:12:37 -!- adamthekiwi has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:17:07 -!- tromp has joined. 08:31:52 kmc++ 08:47:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:48:52 -!- b_jonas has joined. 08:48:57 `? fonts 08:48:58 ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/ 08:49:05 kmc: ^ orin's is among there 08:57:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:31:26 -!- tromp has joined. 09:42:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:51:37 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:02:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:15:05 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:16:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:22:23 -!- rodgort has joined. 10:26:47 -!- xkapastel has joined. 10:29:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:47:47 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:08:11 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60027&oldid=59878 * Salpynx * (+114) /* 99 Bottles */ better output 11:10:54 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60028&oldid=60027 * Salpynx * (+22) /* External resources */ TC proof example link update and TC category 11:29:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 11:34:34 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60029&oldid=60004 * Salpynx * (+182) /* */ 11:45:38 `unicode א 11:45:39 U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF \ UTF-8: d7 90 UTF-16BE: 05d0 Decimal: א \ א \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: R (Right-to-Left) 11:45:46 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60030&oldid=60029 * Salpynx * (+587) /* The Waterfall Model */ 12:07:15 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined. 12:10:50 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:10:50 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life. 12:22:33 [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60031&oldid=58459 * Puzzlet Chung * (-85) /* External resources */ 12:43:15 -!- Essadon has joined. 12:43:41 -!- Essadon has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 12:44:05 -!- Essadon has joined. 13:24:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:26:29 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:49:30 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 14:58:06 -!- xkapastel has joined. 15:33:33 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:10:07 [[Talk:Onov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60032 * AIden * (+146) Created page with "This seems difficult to understand. Maybe you could add a picture? --~~~~" 16:19:03 shachaf: hichaf 16:50:25 -!- bobby has quit (Quit: bye bye). 17:10:30 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:20:26 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:23:13 -!- sleepnap has joined. 18:16:29 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:18:10 -!- CNatch has joined. 18:20:14 \HELP 18:23:03 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:23:08 `relcome CNatch 18:23:10 ​CNatch: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 18:24:41 -!- CNatch has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:26:31 kmc: higan 18:27:36 hello 18:27:38 wh'ts new 18:28:11 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:28:14 fungot: new? 18:28:14 int-e: and hr definitely tells you something 18:28:42 int-e: since when do you relcome tdnh 18:29:43 shachaf: I've done that on occasion, when I'm not in the mood for `wElCoMe or `WeLcOmE 18:29:52 `welcom 18:29:52 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcom: not found 18:30:02 that's clearly an oversight 18:30:04 `elcome 18:30:09 elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: . (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.) 18:30:45 #soteric? 18:30:52 `cbt elcome 18:30:53 welcome "$@" | sed s/\\\<.//g 18:34:29 @google "two time pad" 18:34:30 https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/2249/how-does-one-attack-a-two-time-pad-i-e-one-time-pad-with-key-reuse 18:35:21 that sounds unhygienic 18:35:33 :) 18:35:41 and it's also bad crypto 18:36:32 Is there something like OTP but less malleable? 18:38:16 Sure... add a message authentication code. 18:43:06 OK, but some ways of encrypting things are malleable even without MACs. 18:43:44 +less? 18:44:15 Uh, yes. 18:44:33 I mean, xor is pretty much a worst-case scenario. 18:44:42 you can also use your favourite cipher to mix the bits thoroughly before using the OTP 18:45:16 I guess that's true. 18:45:38 Also ciphers are passé. It's all about unkeyed permutations nowadays. 18:46:08 Bascially any nonlinear map, or possibly even a secret linear map (GCM seems to be using such a beast) 18:48:13 https://gimli.cr.yp.to/ 18:49:53 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:53:32 you attack it by adding them mod whatever 18:53:40 which gives you the modular sum of two plaintexts 18:53:46 which you can attack with frequency analysis or w/e 19:11:22 shachaf: how does that work? is the key part of the plaintexT? 19:12:45 shachaf: xor in itself isn't bad if you use it properly. and these days you don't have to carry long one-time pads either, because we have good methods to generate arbitrarily long crypto secure pseudo-random sequences and xor your things with it. 19:13:20 You still have to make sure never to resuse the same part of the sequence, but that's still true even if you use something more complicated than xor, xor just might be slightly more trivial to attack if you do that than other schemes. 19:13:23 that's just a stream cipher 19:13:25 with a nonce 19:13:32 kmc: yes, exactly 19:14:12 You still have to be careful about following the protocols, and getting the key to the other party securely but never divulging it otherwise, and using proper secure random generators to get a key. 19:14:25 yep 19:16:00 kmc: https://gimli.cr.yp.to/gimli-20170627.pdf 19:16:07 Jules Verne's ''La Jangada'' is an example for what people did back when they didn't have such a nice crypto-secure key-extension scheme, so they just reused the same very short key repeated over and over in the same long message. 19:16:35 shachaf: I don't have time to read a paper rn 19:16:36 That is a bad way to do crypto, and in fact the outcome in the novel is that the crypto is eventually broken. 19:16:44 yeah 19:16:54 Mind you, it wasn't so easy to use good crypto before computers. 19:17:22 b_jonas: I think an electromechanical device like Enigma could be made nearly as secure as modern computer-based ciphers 19:17:30 but the theory to do so did not exist back then 19:17:39 also it might have to be prohibitively expensive / large 19:17:40 I'm not sure 19:17:57 * kmc ponders how to implement Salsa20 with gears and shit 19:17:58 kmc: the Enigma wasn't secure, as history shows, and I don't think it was reasonably possible either back in the 19th century when Verne wrote those books 19:18:17 I also want to try doing it by hand 19:18:36 b_jonas: I know it wasn't secure, due to algorithmic design flaws 19:18:55 but I don't think it's fundamentally impossible to implement a secure cipher that way 19:19:00 I have also not thought about it in detail. 19:19:29 kmc: I don't know if that'd be possible or not. I always think that crypto requires a bit more computation than you can do that way, but I'm not sure. 19:19:40 I mean it wouldn't be particularly fast 19:19:44 but the operations can be simple 19:19:53 for Salsa20 you need 32-bit xor, 32-bit addition, and bitwise rotations 19:20:15 mechanical calculators existed, xor is even easier, rotations are trivial 19:20:27 you could at the very least make a mechanical or electromechanical device that helps working Salsa20 by hand 19:20:33 by implementing the basic ops 19:21:08 well, that book has an unusually long message ciphered, it might be more practical to do something like that for very short messages, and those are still helpful in a war, like the original intent of the Enigma machines was 19:21:19 yeah 19:21:26 they also made many operational mistakes with the enigma 19:22:28 It's so long that I think the novel doesn't even quote the whole multi-page document, only the last paragraph. 19:22:38 -!- grumble has changed nick to `-_-`grumble. 19:23:00 kmc: well, there's the problem that you have to remember the secret key, but it's a war and you might be killed without having time to destroy physical evidence 19:23:06 so that can be a bit tricky 19:23:34 yeah 19:23:41 it could be done if the soldiers using the machines were required to learn like a 160-bit secret key by heart, but it's not trivial 19:24:08 for salsa32 you also need a 512 bit storage 19:24:10 which is not trivial 19:24:33 yeah, if they write temporary values on a sheet of paper, then they need to burn those sheets of papers properly 19:24:53 yeah 19:25:10 * kmc ponders lunch 19:27:57 That's not the only novel of Jules Verne that features cryptography. There are two more. 19:28:55 ''Mahtias Sandorf'' is another: in that one the crypto is broken because someone steals the physical copy of the key by a social engineering attack. 19:31:01 And yes, the first one is ''Voyage au centre de la Terre'', which uses even more insecure crypto than ''La Jangada'' 19:31:48 Though that was admittedly a feature: A. S. wanted the message to be found and read in the future. 19:32:27 He just wanted to hide it a little because the inquisition was burning all his writings. 19:36:10 -!- `-_-`grumble has changed nick to grumble. 20:03:18 hmm 20:04:42 ``` welcome | perl -pe's/[a-z]\b//g' # int-e: let me try that 20:04:43 Welcom t th internationa hu fo esoteri programmin languag desig an deploymen! Fo mor informatio, chec ou ou wik: . (Fo th othe kin o esoteric, tr #esoteri o EFne o DALne.) 20:05:06 huh what... that doesn't seem right 20:05:11 oh I see 20:05:17 it's actually https and esolangs 20:05:27 I was wondering why it didn't remove the p from the http and the g from the esolang 20:12:48 -!- imode has joined. 20:24:17 I'm working on this ChaCha20-by-hand 20:24:55 so far I've made a table for 8 bit addition (with carry-out) 20:25:33 the goal is to have a number of tables and worksheets so that you can do it fairly quickly w/o thinking very much 20:26:29 working on 32 bit words as hex 20:26:32 I think this is p. esoteric 20:26:54 addition you can do with the grade school algorithm + a 4 or 8 bit addition table 20:27:05 xor is easy to do nibble-wise 20:29:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:31:22 kmc: I know I can do addition and bitshift and all the other operations by hand, the question is more like how many of them you need for the crypto. 20:31:37 because, you know, I can do an addition by hand, but the computer can do a billion of them 20:31:41 rotation is a bit harder, might need to convert to binary and back. I haven't thought about a clever way to do that 20:31:52 b_jonas: are you knowledgable about the ChaCha20 algorithm? 20:32:01 no 20:32:45 each quarter-round has four additions, four XORs, and four rotations 20:33:03 (and two of the rotations are multiples of 8, which makes things easier) 20:33:20 and sure, usually I do additions and multiplications to only one and a half digit precision, but I know how to do them more precisely if I have to 20:33:28 and there are 20 rounds 20:33:46 -!- tromp has joined. 20:33:51 kmc: four additions of what word length? 20:34:00 32 bits 20:34:07 it's all 32 bit math 20:34:17 kmc: ok 20:36:41 so that's 960 32-bit operations per block, and each block gives you 512 bits 20:37:46 optimistically it could take 3 hours of nonstop work, which... okay, it's a lot 20:38:13 and i don't think it can really be parallelized, but you could have several people take turns 20:38:16 kmc: that could be done, but there's not much point these days, because a small electronic device can do it too 20:38:26 point? this is #esoteric 20:38:35 sure 20:38:49 so do it with a mechanical computer 20:38:54 I might! 20:39:01 if you use baudot code then 512 bits gives you about 100 characters, which is a pretty good size message 20:39:26 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:39:37 that always reminds me of Mojo Jojo's speech, when he says "not with mechanical machines" and "with my own two hands" 20:39:46 b_jonas: I'm interested in secure communications after an EMP or other catastrophic event which renders most electronics unusable or difficult to find 20:39:52 it's a proof o concept 20:39:56 i'm sure it could be done more efficiently 20:40:11 you could also simply use fewer rounds, if you don't expect a high capability attacker 20:40:39 kmc: but I said *small* electronic device. even after an EMP some of those would survive. an older electronic calculator from the eighties. 20:40:49 sure 20:41:02 or from the nineties 20:41:07 ultimately it is an arbitrary constrained problem for fun 20:41:11 sure 20:41:33 hmm, now I have to rewatch that speech 20:41:47 which? 20:42:36 the one in the Powerpuff Girls episode "Mr. Mojo's Rising", where Mojo Jojo does a strange victory speech on the particular way he's defeated the Powerpuff Girls 20:43:17 heh 20:43:17 https://powerpuffgirls.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Mojo%27s_Rising/Transcript has a transcript of the episode, the speech starts at "YES!! I have defeated the Powerpuff Girls!" 20:43:28 episode title's a reference to a The Doors song :) 20:43:31 but it's better with the actual audio and video 20:43:37 which you can also find on the internet 20:44:27 RC4 takes only 6ish byte operations per output byte 20:44:31 but RC4 is pretty well broken 20:47:03 and then there's a second, shorter monologue at the end of the episode. Mojo Jojo is good in those. 20:47:56 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 20:48:06 and he actually says "bare hands" rather than "two hands" 20:48:13 ironic because he always wears gloves 20:49:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:51:12 -!- aeyxa has joined. 21:05:06 -!- Camto has joined. 21:09:02 -!- aeyxa has quit (Quit: Page closed). 21:14:56 did you ever see this wooden adder? https://hackaday.com/2009/10/13/binary-adder-will-give-you-slivers/ 21:17:24 kmc: that's just a third-part article about Matthias Wandel's adder 21:17:57 http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/ 21:19:05 -!- S_Gautam has quit. 21:19:16 kmc: I've also seen a water adder with no moving parts other than water and air in the pipes, but I'm not sure if it actually worked. it was exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien, in a way that it didn't work, and it may have worked but the setup was a suspiciously plausibly deniable one 21:19:31 which really looked like they rigged up to save face after they promised a water adder but couldn't get it work. 21:19:37 I saw water based gates as an old MIT project 21:20:16 I think it's possible to make such a thing work in principle, but they would have needed several more iterations of debugging and glassblowing, and just ran out of time. 21:21:11 It could add zero plus zero reliably though. 21:29:25 -!- tromp has joined. 21:32:15 -!- Camto has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:33:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:41:51 There's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC but that's quite different. 21:42:11 The first photo looks really familiar, but they say it's in New Zealand, and I haven't been there. 21:43:02 (I guess they could've had it do a tour in some other museum, though it doesn't look that portable.) 21:43:48 fizzie: no, I don't think it's related 21:44:18 Oh, they've built several. 21:44:18 -!- tromp has joined. 21:44:28 http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co64127/phillips-economic-computer-analog-computer is in the Science Museum here. 21:44:42 fizzie: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/adder 21:45:05 sorry, it's not a very good picture 21:57:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:03:40 -!- tromp has joined. 22:33:45 -!- Remavas has joined. 22:34:07 -!- Remavas has changed nick to Remavas[AFK]. 22:35:05 -!- Remavas[AFK] has quit (Client Quit). 22:40:24 -!- Remavas has joined. 22:44:35 -!- Remavas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:00 -!- Remavas has joined. 23:13:18 -!- Remavas has changed nick to Remavas[AFK]. 23:15:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:18:48 -!- Remavas[AFK] has changed nick to Remavas. 23:20:13 I have a idea of esolang that you can move a cursor and put black and white Go stones onto a infinite grid; if a stone is already there nothing happens, but otherwise you can attach a event code to the stone added and it is executed when that stone is captured. (I think you can make a tape out of this) 23:20:36 that's cool 23:24:47 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 23:27:54 [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60033&oldid=60031 * Puzzlet Chung * (+13) /* External resources */ 23:28:01 -!- Camto has joined. 23:35:37 -!- Remavas has changed nick to Remavas[AFK]. 23:39:11 -!- Camto has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).