←2019-02-21 2019-02-22 2019-02-23→ ↑2019 ↑all
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00:12:52 <kmc> what kind of font are you making orin
00:15:22 <orin> kmc: I am working on a terminal/pixel font, 16 pixels tall and 9 or 18 pixels wide, supporting lots of unicode characters
00:15:50 <orin> kmc: http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
00:17:10 <orin> kmc: currently supports european languages, korean, hebrew, arabic, and devanagari, as well as a lot of japanese but not all
00:17:20 <kmc> that's a lot of characters
00:18:01 <orin> kmc: 21130 so far
00:18:17 <kmc> and you drew each one?
00:18:34 <orin> kmc: I drew all of the non-hangul
00:18:51 <orin> kmc: which is 9958 in total
00:19:17 <shachaf> orin: imo why do you have yiddish text there
00:19:17 <orin> the hangul I drew the components and wrote a program to combine them
00:19:19 <shachaf> more ligatures?
00:20:24 <orin> shachaf: yes iirc. it's been a year since I worked on this
00:21:07 <orin> shachaf: ideally I need a sample text with the hebrew dots to demonstrate it supports them
00:21:19 <orin> nikkudots?
00:21:45 <shachaf> whoa, a cross-language portmanteau
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00:39:34 <oerjan> argh
00:40:00 <oerjan> . o O ( He can never remember the dontaskdonttelllist, so he put it here for convenience. )
00:40:43 <shachaf> int-e: don't you run lambdabot? make your own dontaskdonttelllist hth
00:43:07 <int-e> shachaf: It sometimes happens that people ask lambabot related questions via @ask/@tell, for example because they are from a channel that I'm not in. So blocking @tells to me on the lambdabot side is not really feasible.
00:43:21 <int-e> @help auto-reply
00:43:21 <lambdabot> auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message
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00:45:01 <int-e> It's funny that this help message spells lambdabot with a hyphen.
00:45:32 <int-e> > git grep lambda-bot
00:45:32 <int-e> lambdabot-social-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Social/Tell.hs: { help = say "auto-reply. Lets lambda-bot auto-reply if someone sends you a message"
00:45:34 <lambdabot> error:
00:45:34 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: git :: t0 -> t1 -> a
00:45:34 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant one of these:
00:45:41 <int-e> @botsnack
00:45:41 <lambdabot> :)
00:45:45 <int-e> (oops0
00:45:46 <int-e> )
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03:12:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CNatcharian * New user account
03:15:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60023&oldid=59994 * CNatcharian * (+204)
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03:28:29 <orin> ok, save function is now working. need to optimize the BBX line tho
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03:31:51 <orin> once that is done, I'll be ready to stop using the bloated fontforge to design my font
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04:19:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adamthekiwi * New user account
04:23:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60024&oldid=60023 * Adamthekiwi * (+260)
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04:36:05 <esowiki> [[Letterbox]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60025 * CNatcharian * (+5476) Created the page
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04:43:29 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60026&oldid=60017 * CNatcharian * (+16) /* L */
04:50:22 * oerjan spots a flightless bird in the channel
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05:22:18 <orin> aha
05:22:32 <oerjan> revelation!
05:22:42 <oerjan> (of what?)
05:22:47 <orin> I have figured out how to correctly calculate the bounding box for a glyph in BDF format
05:23:00 <orin> and output the coreect hex codes
05:23:55 <orin> whcih means soon I can say o revwar to fontforge in favor of bdfedit.c
05:25:22 <shachaf> orin: but did you fix your build system yet twh
05:25:31 <orin> no
05:25:55 <orin> but none of my font revisions after this one will include fontforge's obnoxious
05:25:58 <orin> COMMENT "Generated by fontforge, http://fontforge.sourceforge.net"
05:26:05 <orin> in the font file
05:26:35 <orin> with reference to sourceforge, the notorious malware site
05:28:09 <orin> instead I will be editing my font with a glorious C terminal program
05:39:24 <orin> http://orenwatson.be/bdfedit.htm
05:39:32 <orin> still need to fully test it
05:42:41 <orin> `unicode 其
05:42:43 <HackEso> U+5176 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5176 \ UTF-8: e5 85 b6 UTF-16BE: 5176 Decimal: &#20854; \ 其 (其) \ Uppercase: U+5176 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
05:47:37 <orin> https://imgur.com/slDzqqc
05:47:50 <orin> ^ character now drawn using bdfedit.c
05:51:36 <orin> downloaded the bdf file to verify that it is valid and the character is in fact present
05:56:33 <orin> converted to TTF using my bdf2ttf.c and vwala! it shows up in my font!
05:57:37 <orin> end to end test is great success!
05:59:23 <orin> `unicode ..
05:59:24 <HackEso> U+002E FULL STOP \ UTF-8: 2e UTF-16BE: 002e Decimal: &#46; \ . \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: CS (Common Number Separator) \ \ U+002E FULL STOP \ UTF-8: 2e UTF-16BE: 002e Decimal: &#46; \ . \ Category: Po (Punctuation, Other) \ Bidi: CS (Common Number Separator)
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06:16:13 <orin> `unicode 😍
06:16:14 <HackEso> U+1F60D SMILING FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES \ UTF-8: f0 9f 98 8d UTF-16BE: d83dde0d Decimal: &#128525; \ 😍 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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06:56:14 <adamthekiwi> howdy
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08:31:52 <shachaf> kmc++
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08:48:57 <b_jonas> `? fonts
08:48:58 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
08:49:05 <b_jonas> kmc: ^ orin's is among there
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11:08:11 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60027&oldid=59878 * Salpynx * (+114) /* 99 Bottles */ better output
11:10:54 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60028&oldid=60027 * Salpynx * (+22) /* External resources */ TC proof example link update and TC category
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11:34:34 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60029&oldid=60004 * Salpynx * (+182) /* */
11:45:38 <rain1> `unicode א
11:45:39 <HackEso> U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF \ UTF-8: d7 90 UTF-16BE: 05d0 Decimal: &#1488; \ א \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: R (Right-to-Left)
11:45:46 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60030&oldid=60029 * Salpynx * (+587) /* The Waterfall Model */
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12:22:33 <esowiki> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60031&oldid=58459 * Puzzlet Chung * (-85) /* External resources */
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16:10:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Onov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=60032 * AIden * (+146) Created page with "This seems difficult to understand. Maybe you could add a picture? --~~~~"
16:19:03 <kmc> shachaf: hichaf
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18:20:14 <CNatch> \HELP
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18:23:08 <int-e> `relcome CNatch
18:23:10 <HackEso> CNatch: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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18:26:31 <shachaf> kmc: higan
18:27:36 <kmc> hello
18:27:38 <kmc> wh'ts new
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18:28:14 <int-e> fungot: new?
18:28:14 <fungot> int-e: and hr definitely tells you something
18:28:42 <shachaf> int-e: since when do you relcome tdnh
18:29:43 <int-e> shachaf: I've done that on occasion, when I'm not in the mood for `wElCoMe or `WeLcOmE
18:29:52 <int-e> `welcom
18:29:52 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcom: not found
18:30:02 <int-e> that's clearly an oversight
18:30:04 <int-e> `elcome
18:30:09 <HackEso> elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttps://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
18:30:45 <shachaf> #soteric?
18:30:52 <shachaf> `cbt elcome
18:30:53 <HackEso> welcome "$@" | sed s/\\\<.//g
18:34:29 <int-e> @google "two time pad"
18:34:30 <lambdabot> https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/2249/how-does-one-attack-a-two-time-pad-i-e-one-time-pad-with-key-reuse
18:35:21 <shachaf> that sounds unhygienic
18:35:33 <int-e> :)
18:35:41 <int-e> and it's also bad crypto
18:36:32 <shachaf> Is there something like OTP but less malleable?
18:38:16 <int-e> Sure... add a message authentication code.
18:43:06 <shachaf> OK, but some ways of encrypting things are malleable even without MACs.
18:43:44 <int-e> +less?
18:44:15 <shachaf> Uh, yes.
18:44:33 <shachaf> I mean, xor is pretty much a worst-case scenario.
18:44:42 <int-e> you can also use your favourite cipher to mix the bits thoroughly before using the OTP
18:45:16 <shachaf> I guess that's true.
18:45:38 <shachaf> Also ciphers are passé. It's all about unkeyed permutations nowadays.
18:46:08 <int-e> Bascially any nonlinear map, or possibly even a secret linear map (GCM seems to be using such a beast)
18:48:13 <shachaf> https://gimli.cr.yp.to/
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18:53:32 <kmc> you attack it by adding them mod whatever
18:53:40 <kmc> which gives you the modular sum of two plaintexts
18:53:46 <kmc> which you can attack with frequency analysis or w/e
19:11:22 <kmc> shachaf: how does that work? is the key part of the plaintexT?
19:12:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: xor in itself isn't bad if you use it properly. and these days you don't have to carry long one-time pads either, because we have good methods to generate arbitrarily long crypto secure pseudo-random sequences and xor your things with it.
19:13:20 <b_jonas> You still have to make sure never to resuse the same part of the sequence, but that's still true even if you use something more complicated than xor, xor just might be slightly more trivial to attack if you do that than other schemes.
19:13:23 <kmc> that's just a stream cipher
19:13:25 <kmc> with a nonce
19:13:32 <b_jonas> kmc: yes, exactly
19:14:12 <b_jonas> You still have to be careful about following the protocols, and getting the key to the other party securely but never divulging it otherwise, and using proper secure random generators to get a key.
19:14:25 <kmc> yep
19:16:00 <shachaf> kmc: https://gimli.cr.yp.to/gimli-20170627.pdf
19:16:07 <b_jonas> Jules Verne's ''La Jangada'' is an example for what people did back when they didn't have such a nice crypto-secure key-extension scheme, so they just reused the same very short key repeated over and over in the same long message.
19:16:35 <kmc> shachaf: I don't have time to read a paper rn
19:16:36 <b_jonas> That is a bad way to do crypto, and in fact the outcome in the novel is that the crypto is eventually broken.
19:16:44 <kmc> yeah
19:16:54 <b_jonas> Mind you, it wasn't so easy to use good crypto before computers.
19:17:22 <kmc> b_jonas: I think an electromechanical device like Enigma could be made nearly as secure as modern computer-based ciphers
19:17:30 <kmc> but the theory to do so did not exist back then
19:17:39 <kmc> also it might have to be prohibitively expensive / large
19:17:40 <kmc> I'm not sure
19:17:57 * kmc ponders how to implement Salsa20 with gears and shit
19:17:58 <b_jonas> kmc: the Enigma wasn't secure, as history shows, and I don't think it was reasonably possible either back in the 19th century when Verne wrote those books
19:18:17 <kmc> I also want to try doing it by hand
19:18:36 <kmc> b_jonas: I know it wasn't secure, due to algorithmic design flaws
19:18:55 <kmc> but I don't think it's fundamentally impossible to implement a secure cipher that way
19:19:00 <kmc> I have also not thought about it in detail.
19:19:29 <b_jonas> kmc: I don't know if that'd be possible or not. I always think that crypto requires a bit more computation than you can do that way, but I'm not sure.
19:19:40 <kmc> I mean it wouldn't be particularly fast
19:19:44 <kmc> but the operations can be simple
19:19:53 <kmc> for Salsa20 you need 32-bit xor, 32-bit addition, and bitwise rotations
19:20:15 <kmc> mechanical calculators existed, xor is even easier, rotations are trivial
19:20:27 <kmc> you could at the very least make a mechanical or electromechanical device that helps working Salsa20 by hand
19:20:33 <kmc> by implementing the basic ops
19:21:08 <b_jonas> well, that book has an unusually long message ciphered, it might be more practical to do something like that for very short messages, and those are still helpful in a war, like the original intent of the Enigma machines was
19:21:19 <kmc> yeah
19:21:26 <kmc> they also made many operational mistakes with the enigma
19:22:28 <b_jonas> It's so long that I think the novel doesn't even quote the whole multi-page document, only the last paragraph.
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19:23:00 <b_jonas> kmc: well, there's the problem that you have to remember the secret key, but it's a war and you might be killed without having time to destroy physical evidence
19:23:06 <b_jonas> so that can be a bit tricky
19:23:34 <kmc> yeah
19:23:41 <b_jonas> it could be done if the soldiers using the machines were required to learn like a 160-bit secret key by heart, but it's not trivial
19:24:08 <kmc> for salsa32 you also need a 512 bit storage
19:24:10 <kmc> which is not trivial
19:24:33 <b_jonas> yeah, if they write temporary values on a sheet of paper, then they need to burn those sheets of papers properly
19:24:53 <kmc> yeah
19:25:10 * kmc ponders lunch
19:27:57 <b_jonas> That's not the only novel of Jules Verne that features cryptography. There are two more.
19:28:55 <b_jonas> ''Mahtias Sandorf'' is another: in that one the crypto is broken because someone steals the physical copy of the key by a social engineering attack.
19:31:01 <b_jonas> And yes, the first one is ''Voyage au centre de la Terre'', which uses even more insecure crypto than ''La Jangada''
19:31:48 <b_jonas> Though that was admittedly a feature: A. S. wanted the message to be found and read in the future.
19:32:27 <b_jonas> He just wanted to hide it a little because the inquisition was burning all his writings.
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20:03:18 <b_jonas> hmm
20:04:42 <b_jonas> ``` welcome | perl -pe's/[a-z]\b//g' # int-e: let me try that
20:04:43 <HackEso> Welcom t th internationa hu fo esoteri programmin languag desig an deploymen! Fo mor informatio, chec ou ou wik: <http://esolang.or/>. (Fo th othe kin o esoteric, tr #esoteri o EFne o DALne.)
20:05:06 <b_jonas> huh what... that doesn't seem right
20:05:11 <b_jonas> oh I see
20:05:17 <b_jonas> it's actually https and esolangs
20:05:27 <b_jonas> I was wondering why it didn't remove the p from the http and the g from the esolang
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20:24:17 <kmc> I'm working on this ChaCha20-by-hand
20:24:55 <kmc> so far I've made a table for 8 bit addition (with carry-out)
20:25:33 <kmc> the goal is to have a number of tables and worksheets so that you can do it fairly quickly w/o thinking very much
20:26:29 <kmc> working on 32 bit words as hex
20:26:32 <kmc> I think this is p. esoteric
20:26:54 <kmc> addition you can do with the grade school algorithm + a 4 or 8 bit addition table
20:27:05 <kmc> xor is easy to do nibble-wise
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20:31:22 <b_jonas> kmc: I know I can do addition and bitshift and all the other operations by hand, the question is more like how many of them you need for the crypto.
20:31:37 <b_jonas> because, you know, I can do an addition by hand, but the computer can do a billion of them
20:31:41 <kmc> rotation is a bit harder, might need to convert to binary and back. I haven't thought about a clever way to do that
20:31:52 <kmc> b_jonas: are you knowledgable about the ChaCha20 algorithm?
20:32:01 <b_jonas> no
20:32:45 <kmc> each quarter-round has four additions, four XORs, and four rotations
20:33:03 <kmc> (and two of the rotations are multiples of 8, which makes things easier)
20:33:20 <b_jonas> and sure, usually I do additions and multiplications to only one and a half digit precision, but I know how to do them more precisely if I have to
20:33:28 <kmc> and there are 20 rounds
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20:33:51 <b_jonas> kmc: four additions of what word length?
20:34:00 <kmc> 32 bits
20:34:07 <kmc> it's all 32 bit math
20:34:17 <b_jonas> kmc: ok
20:36:41 <kmc> so that's 960 32-bit operations per block, and each block gives you 512 bits
20:37:46 <kmc> optimistically it could take 3 hours of nonstop work, which... okay, it's a lot
20:38:13 <kmc> and i don't think it can really be parallelized, but you could have several people take turns
20:38:16 <b_jonas> kmc: that could be done, but there's not much point these days, because a small electronic device can do it too
20:38:26 <kmc> point? this is #esoteric
20:38:35 <b_jonas> sure
20:38:49 <b_jonas> so do it with a mechanical computer
20:38:54 <kmc> I might!
20:39:01 <kmc> if you use baudot code then 512 bits gives you about 100 characters, which is a pretty good size message
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20:39:37 <b_jonas> that always reminds me of Mojo Jojo's speech, when he says "not with mechanical machines" and "with my own two hands"
20:39:46 <kmc> b_jonas: I'm interested in secure communications after an EMP or other catastrophic event which renders most electronics unusable or difficult to find
20:39:52 <kmc> it's a proof o concept
20:39:56 <kmc> i'm sure it could be done more efficiently
20:40:11 <kmc> you could also simply use fewer rounds, if you don't expect a high capability attacker
20:40:39 <b_jonas> kmc: but I said *small* electronic device. even after an EMP some of those would survive. an older electronic calculator from the eighties.
20:40:49 <kmc> sure
20:41:02 <b_jonas> or from the nineties
20:41:07 <kmc> ultimately it is an arbitrary constrained problem for fun
20:41:11 <b_jonas> sure
20:41:33 <b_jonas> hmm, now I have to rewatch that speech
20:41:47 <kmc> which?
20:42:36 <b_jonas> the one in the Powerpuff Girls episode "Mr. Mojo's Rising", where Mojo Jojo does a strange victory speech on the particular way he's defeated the Powerpuff Girls
20:43:17 <kmc> heh
20:43:17 <b_jonas> https://powerpuffgirls.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Mojo%27s_Rising/Transcript has a transcript of the episode, the speech starts at "YES!! I have defeated the Powerpuff Girls!"
20:43:28 <kmc> episode title's a reference to a The Doors song :)
20:43:31 <b_jonas> but it's better with the actual audio and video
20:43:37 <b_jonas> which you can also find on the internet
20:44:27 <kmc> RC4 takes only 6ish byte operations per output byte
20:44:31 <kmc> but RC4 is pretty well broken
20:47:03 <b_jonas> and then there's a second, shorter monologue at the end of the episode. Mojo Jojo is good in those.
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20:48:06 <b_jonas> and he actually says "bare hands" rather than "two hands"
20:48:13 <b_jonas> ironic because he always wears gloves
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21:14:56 <kmc> did you ever see this wooden adder? https://hackaday.com/2009/10/13/binary-adder-will-give-you-slivers/
21:17:24 <b_jonas> kmc: that's just a third-part article about Matthias Wandel's adder
21:17:57 <b_jonas> http://woodgears.ca/marbleadd/
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21:19:16 <b_jonas> kmc: I've also seen a water adder with no moving parts other than water and air in the pipes, but I'm not sure if it actually worked. it was exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien, in a way that it didn't work, and it may have worked but the setup was a suspiciously plausibly deniable one
21:19:31 <b_jonas> which really looked like they rigged up to save face after they promised a water adder but couldn't get it work.
21:19:37 <kmc> I saw water based gates as an old MIT project
21:20:16 <b_jonas> I think it's possible to make such a thing work in principle, but they would have needed several more iterations of debugging and glassblowing, and just ran out of time.
21:21:11 <b_jonas> It could add zero plus zero reliably though.
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21:41:51 <fizzie> There's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC but that's quite different.
21:42:11 <fizzie> The first photo looks really familiar, but they say it's in New Zealand, and I haven't been there.
21:43:02 <fizzie> (I guess they could've had it do a tour in some other museum, though it doesn't look that portable.)
21:43:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, I don't think it's related
21:44:18 <fizzie> Oh, they've built several.
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21:44:28 <fizzie> http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/co64127/phillips-economic-computer-analog-computer is in the Science Museum here.
21:44:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/adder
21:45:05 <b_jonas> sorry, it's not a very good picture
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23:20:13 <zzo38> I have a idea of esolang that you can move a cursor and put black and white Go stones onto a infinite grid; if a stone is already there nothing happens, but otherwise you can attach a event code to the stone added and it is executed when that stone is captured. (I think you can make a tape out of this)
23:20:36 <kmc> that's cool
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23:27:54 <esowiki> [[Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=60033&oldid=60031 * Puzzlet Chung * (+13) /* External resources */
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