< 1546992393 939873 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1546992928 381362 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1546993520 558168 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha ha very funny, have they actually proven that that encoding is invertible?.. meh < 1546993567 605455 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost want to write a comment there < 1546994388 231652 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar KOAK < 1546994388 600604 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 082353Z 13005KT 10SM OVC033 14/11 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP140 60000 T01440111 10150 20128 56018 < 1546994599 170809 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: there isn't much to prove? < 1546994639 871284 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think it’s outright invalid but I’m lazy to investigate < 1546994656 102472 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is with replacing each 0 with 69 < 1546994707 78500 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe two numbers could map to the same thing in the end < 1546994713 72615 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed PART :#esoteric < 1546994722 773349 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I trusted the description that "the 0" is only one. < 1546994785 424193 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.html < 1546994822 958941 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite—right before the example they write “All zeros in the code is now a 69.” < 1546994836 388708 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ioccclist < 1546994837 506894 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ioccclist is update notification for when a new year of the International Obfuscated C Code Contest is announced, or the winners for a year is announced, or the source codes of winners are released. http://www.ioccc.org/#news < 1546994837 732576 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Since it's restricted in ASCII you won't find any collisions. < 1546994852 893751 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it’s a bit inaccurate in its own right… < 1546994864 829739 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hopefully! :D < 1546994884 501506 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :provably since 0x69 is not divisible by 69 (decimal) < 1546994934 68918 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway I won’t be the only one to dislike languages that are print-only or, for the other cases, ill-described :P < 1546994997 308944 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I dislike under-Turing-complete formalisms, but that these have been used in much more interesting esolangs than of this sort < 1546995071 404329 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don’t know policies of the wiki and anyway I hope this fellow would think up something interesting after all < 1546995135 203911 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope is all we have when luck is proven nonexistent :D < 1546995152 62251 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're right that as an encoding of natural numbers, this is not injective. For example, 1340 and 60 map to the same string: 69x1692C (omitting the /-/31169) (is this the smallest example?) < 1546995209 307369 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice! < 1546995341 311283 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, 69x1692d -- I forgot the final shift of letters and the preference for lower case < 1546995352 18750 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1546995646 48681 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 ~ 361, 32 ~ 617, 48 ~ 873 < 1546995665 545378 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :64 ~ 1129 < 1546995719 488156 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 ~ 4201 ~ 5776 < 1546995757 128090 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and many more in 1..10 000) < 1546995819 271626 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooops! < 1546995827 639528 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot to multiply by 69 < 1546995845 953023 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a shame < 1546996411 258802 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1546996616 106592 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems indeed 60 ~ 1340 is the smallest pair < 1546996630 433216 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1546996706 131823 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mpjtgfhubnedrqxj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1546996756 161769 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it’s quite impolite to use just ASCII output these days, so even larger pairs should really matter :P < 1546998985 665557 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1546999150 825709 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1546999665 356284 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1546999691 691238 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547004126 201417 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1547004857 650343 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1547006003 430315 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1547006151 15301 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547006385 399845 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1547006409 690305 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547007610 124081 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547007790 151346 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 You're right, with that assumption 1,0,0 (mod 4) works, and with a much simpler argument than I had for mod 5. < 1547007790 239990 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1547007893 30325 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Googling today's Freefall claim, it looks to me like future Winston is passing on currently debunked science. < 1547007970 334917 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Inert DNA simply does not last a million year unharmed, *and* the bacteria are suspiciously genetically close to modern ones.) < 1547008080 303485 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1547009604 865240 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1547009689 281563 :yaewa!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547010129 614247 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1547010129 790421 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split > 1547011403 721145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59020&oldid=58913 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+3) 10/* Examples */ < 1547011861 820027 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1547013420 559458 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION eats the last nutella ball < 1547015138 904512 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1547015561 823385 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1547016757 296745 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`owrjan < 1547016758 462945 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a punctual expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1547016773 136766 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it already says you're an evil grinch, I guess there's no upgrade from that. < 1547016802 715976 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1547016967 316485 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1547017877 259670 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1547019193 217402 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Graue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59021&oldid=30275 5* 03Qpliu 5* (+713) 10 < 1547021450 541900 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547022127 189264 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-plmrgkofxgrsacyg JOIN :#esoteric < 1547024690 968478 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547024791 663218 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-140.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190108.html < 1547024792 332525 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20190108.html: b_jonas < 1547024830 485142 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1547024844 834011 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1547024945 398208 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it looks clear that we can keep the cells non-negative in ais523's simplified two-loop BF construction < 1547025002 905447 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-140.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nice < 1547025349 461563 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-140.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and, just to be clear, it still uses only a bounded number of cells, right? < 1547025425 13334 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, the size is a function of the number of waterclocks converted < 1547025470 942643 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tape size < 1547025491 754752 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i don't know the minimum number of that < 1547025996 639172 :oerjan!bc715ce1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.113.92.225 QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1547027838 20096 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-140.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1547028244 427898 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1547028271 213604 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1547028873 367764 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59022&oldid=59020 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+69) 10/* External resources */ WIP interpreter < 1547031648 822032 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1547031677 257651 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547038490 816665 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1547039213 464670 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1547039731 59744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59023&oldid=58997 5* 03B jonas 5* (+63) 10/* Computational class */ > 1547039767 750848 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59024&oldid=59023 5* 03B jonas 5* (-63) 10rv self < 1547041165 86564 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1547042488 350524 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547043402 532634 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1547045504 945357 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1547045985 111190 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1547046160 426285 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547046352 235939 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1547046509 438273 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1547047361 554340 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547047626 535958 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1547047782 270523 :yaewa!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1547048256 424002 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547048657 203241 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547048762 529131 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1547048811 668476 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547048875 935445 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: brb < 1547048924 703421 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547048932 931383 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1151 < 1547048933 620003 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1151: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1547048937 412118 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Client Quit < 1547049000 670068 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1547049041 170919 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1547049111 558777 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547049305 982943 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1547049306 524294 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1547050386 735683 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1547050932 152169 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1547051167 743067 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547051828 707558 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1547053161 826434 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547053534 804342 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1547054310 965229 :arseniiv_!~arseniiv@77.79.140.88.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1547054423 867008 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1547054447 994424 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.79.143.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1547056634 837718 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547056877 723891 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what memory topologies lead to automata that aren't TC? < 1547056914 841776 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1547056965 70151 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single one-way tape is one, off the top of my head. < 1547057001 527691 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1547057649 614919 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for cellular automaton, any graph that isn't infinite. < 1547057936 959128 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547059514 955424 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O (though, I guess anything that isn't infinite can't be TC...) < 1547059647 816079 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: a single stack? < 1547059715 916523 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, that'd be one. < 1547061206 346144 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what'd be nice is to find the "general rule", so that you could recognize, for example, patterns of access over a particular graph and say "yup, that can't possibly be turing complete". < 1547061381 426927 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what topologies can't be used as memory spaces for automata to be turing complete". < 1547061427 768841 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :another trivial one is the graph with finite vertices but infinite edges (unless you can change the edge labels). < 1547061478 616693 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1547062231 832085 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand < 1547062258 301421 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this like how regular languages are the finite automata? < 1547063178 936135 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's related to the memory spaces for various automata. turing machines, for example, use an unbounded tape that's able to contain symbols. a cellular automaton like the game of life, for example, relies on the idea of an unbounded 2D grid. < 1547063252 394124 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547063413 723142 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1547063413 811891 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1547063413 811934 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1547063482 310318 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are examples of spaces. they have some topology. their access patterns are "walks" along that topology. their topology is usually discrete/digital. < 1547063528 953675 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my question is, what spaces can't be used to simulate a turing machine. < 1547063586 185835 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of boils down to "what spaces can you not embed a tape". < 1547063892 729564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547063983 452565 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a4b8e1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1547064044 927103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: it seems hard to characterise, e.g. imagine a directed graph formed out of connected loops, O→O→O→O…, that's TC if and only if there's no maximum limit on how large the largest loop can be < 1547064045 38861 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1547064057 320131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1547064069 574056 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :are all the loops the same size? < 1547064088 462808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily; if they are it's sub-TC < 1547064097 275912 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I figured. < 1547064131 542528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, even more confusingly: suppose you have a root node that connects to a loop in one direction, and a copy of the same graph but with bigger loops in the other direction < 1547064147 801206 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you visualize that? < 1547064158 600294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is /also/ sub-TC even though, for any halting computation, you can find a tape on which it could be run < 1547064169 139945 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't have enough memory to reliably find the tape in question < 1547064182 682498 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course. < 1547064276 196644 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like ⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌⋌ except imagine that everything is directed (to the right), you kern it more tightly, and there's an increasingly large loop connected to each of the top connections < 1547064291 519648 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, my extended-ASCII art isn't very good due to a lack of appropriate characters in Unicode < 1547064296 814856 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're good. < 1547064320 707696 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible to even construct an algorithm to recognize graphs that we can't embed a tape in? < 1547064350 177860 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm. < 1547064363 971357 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that we're talking about infinite graphs, just defining the I/O format for that would be hard < 1547064379 989920 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be content with just LBAs. < 1547064397 220253 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infinite, but to a certain point". < 1547064413 888116 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's suceptible to induction. < 1547064425 386026 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think you can run an LBA on that graph (assuming the loop sizes increase faster than linear) so long as you get to read the input twice < 1547064464 884591 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be done with linearly-increasing loop sizes too if the constant factor is sufficiently large < 1547064479 755414 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1547064485 241997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, actually, no, even if the constant factor is small, you just need to increase the number of states < 1547064570 425732 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm thinking of another interesting graph: it's a directed graph with infinitely many connections, and each vertex has a (directed) path to every other, but the connections are chosen randomly < 1547064591 552258 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :subset of the infinite complete directed graph? < 1547064605 733378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but not just any subset < 1547064622 642244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be a single connected component and infinitely large < 1547064630 708986 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could actually simulate this with an infinite bitvector. < 1547064634 957833 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a suspicion that this is TC with probability 1, but not absolutely TC < 1547064647 948004 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :starting with the complete graph, enumerate all edges. < 1547064660 333885 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there exists an edge, put a 0. if there doesn't, put a 1. < 1547064672 498836 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can "carve" the particular graph out of the complete graph. < 1547064683 903118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you can define formats that describe a specific graph of this nature < 1547064705 625135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming in this would be weird, the main issue would be trying to find the tape again whenever you expanded memory < 1547064735 275415 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming a deterministic or probabilistic language, a true-nondeterministic language would have no trouble) < 1547064750 131268 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason I ask is that I'm probing the possible space of physically realizable computations. universes with different topologies admit different tape embeddings of TMs. < 1547064774 241099 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :under different physical laws, how would computation be affected. < 1547064795 890761 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a good general "model". < 1547064803 764969 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that can be ported from space to space. < 1547065023 667874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything that's usable like a TM tape needs to contain a sufficiently large loop somewhere < 1547065030 540130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(necessary condition, not sufficient) < 1547065044 100366 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1547065060 504584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you only have finite memory < 1547065062 637535 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :TM tapes aren't looped. < 1547065073 47948 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are, the loop goes out to the right then back to the left < 1547065078 694045 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1547065080 12981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming you can visit the same cell multiple times < 1547065084 953417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as part of the loop < 1547065106 130891 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the traditional definition of a TM, unless I'm mistaken, involves a tape that extends infinitely to the right. < 1547065121 201876 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1547065125 129436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but the reason it's TC is that you can send the tape head to the right, then back to the left to reread data it's previously written < 1547065127 675684 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: the cells are connected in a directed graph which has cycles < 1547065132 969764 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh right right right. < 1547065136 522003 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, got mixed up. < 1547065165 760098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I don't think my O→O→O→O thing is IO-complete unless it can read data infinitely many times < 1547065165 994376 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, so something like "tileable loops of sufficient size" would probably be a good generalization of the topology of a tape. < 1547065193 586322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if you discover you don't have enough memory, you have to follow a → and lose everything but the TM's current state (which has finitely many possibilities) < 1547065206 921978 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't take input it's fine, just restart from scratch, if you do you have nowhere to store it though < 1547065287 398413 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually interesting. "bubbles" of state. < 1547065316 117958 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: brb - please send all requests, no matter how silly they are, to blkshp asap > 1547065342 592660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Nellephant14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59025&oldid=58994 5* 03Ais523 5* (+359) 10/* The preprocessor */ macro arguments < 1547065447 431085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: something that I've noticed in several languages is connections that the TM can only cross in one state < 1547065480 247873 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you have a loop of tape, but one particular point on the tape causes the TM to forget what it's doing as it crosses it < 1547065537 243612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An Odd Rewriting System is like that, the "tape head" forgets what it's doing when it goes from the rightmost end of the tape back to the leftmost end, it made the TCness proof somewhat difficult (although AORS lets you add extra elements "inside" the loop to get its infinite memory, and that operation seems to help in other ways too) < 1547065622 416522 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1547065821 458409 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting! I'll brb. < 1547066076 204393 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze7mm4q737w3j4.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1547066466 728967 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1547071710 275225 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547071930 45082 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1547072011 157612 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "suppose you have a root node that connects to a loop in one direction, and a copy of the same graph but with bigger loops in the other direction" => < 1547072031 43372 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why that wouldn't be Turing-complete. can't you just copy the tape to the next tape when you run out of it? < 1547072043 160029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, this is unidirectional < 1547072050 224688 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so once you've gone to a loop you can't go back < 1547072083 498338 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1547072088 471820 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only move in one direction < 1547072090 634 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sorry < 1547072296 431281 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unrelated: anyone wants to recommend speedruns on AGDQ2019 that are worth to watch? < 1547072319 463530 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! There's an "Another world" run. I must watch that. < 1547072343 644943 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sonic run was fun < 1547072479 119914 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sonic? I'm guessing there's more than one sonic run on a GDQ < 1547072487 905940 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a whole block. < 1547072621 429051 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sonic 1 < 1547072625 997537 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :original game < 1547073541 576928 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1547073587 921056 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an _original_ sonic game? wow < 1547073595 250003 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1547073632 183826 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Client Quit < 1547074101 100047 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why you're insulting me like that < 1547074451 827030 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1547075782 314061 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1547075983 621798 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-177.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving > 1547077729 860658 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07NEGATOR14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=59026&oldid=59016 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+639) 10