< 1545956565 537536 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have a language. it's called Modal. Modal is based off of term rewriting, and its reduction strategy is based around a queue automata. it features three data structures in its implementation: a dictionary of variable bindings (global), a pattern buffer for matching and construction of new patterns, and an expression buffer that holds the current expression under evaluation. < 1545956657 831904 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: go on, I'm listening < 1545956719 430300 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a subproject, called Mode, which is like Modal, only the model of computation under consideration is combinatory logic. < 1545956768 29220 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm intending on showing a reduction from Modal to Mode, and then show a reduction from Mode to some kind of queue automata or, barring that, a string rewriting system, then to a queue automata. < 1545956797 996993 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my goal at the moment is to show a reduction from Mode to a queue automata. < 1545956861 878226 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue I'm having is the idea of interpreting combintory logic via a queue automata. it's mainly just confronting the idea of partial application/currying. < 1545956904 854769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :by combinatory logic, you mean that thing that birds like the Mockingbird do? < 1545956910 708419 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :known birds at least < 1545956912 319463 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you're interested, the code for Modal's interpreter is at https://git.imode.tech ) < 1545956936 339120 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. the birds in that book represent predefined transformations on term trees. < 1545956977 609617 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://git.imode.tech/?p=python/modal;a=blob;f=prelude.modal;h=d2ac42077ebee97a46937e18ef493338c021394a;hb=refs/heads/master some example Modal code. < 1545957051 408626 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hope was to reduce Mode to just a bare queue automata with some special rules. i.e, cut away the pattern buffer. < 1545957070 582059 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, cut away the dictionary and leave the pattern buffer. < 1545957102 506452 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if modal is {Variable Bindings, Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, mode is {Pattern Buffer, Expression Buffer}, and string rewriting is just {Expression Buffer}. < 1545957145 342067 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think you'd mentioned this language before < 1545957162 631074 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modal, that is < 1545957172 281133 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've talked about it a bit in here. < 1545957313 813093 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue I'm encountering is the idea of partial application. normally, with queue-based evaluation, you check the head of the queue. depending on the combinator, dequeue its arguments in a special way into the pattern buffer, building up a new pattern. then, enqueue that pattern after you're done building it. < 1545957318 679540 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rinse and repeat. < 1545957463 774134 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with partial application, the rules change. "``SK" in unlambda notation, for example, means "((S)K)". if we were to take this as a kind of rewriting system, we'd do something like the following to "represent" partially applied combinators: < 1545957485 418639 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :``SK -> ` < 1545957486 514702 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `SK: not found < 1545957490 886680 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap, sorry. < 1545957530 518157 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that in order to implement partial application, you need to have a distinction between what's partially applied and not partially applied. < 1545957692 642061 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that by saying "`AB -> ". so "````skkk" -> "```kk" -> "``k" -> "`" -> "```kk`kk" -> "```kk" -> "``" -> "`>" -> "`" < 1545957712 645374 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you add delimiters to clarify that this part of the string of applications has been partially applied. < 1545957744 965426 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's irritating because, queue/string-wise, you now have two types of "spans". < 1545957779 540519 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be right back. gotta shower. highlight me and I'll read back. < 1545958642 569113 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-034-085.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: system upgrade < 1545958738 351513 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545958982 727444 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1545959047 420052 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1545959291 283372 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58870&oldid=55677 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+376) 10/* Category? */ > 1545959376 572374 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58871&oldid=58870 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+33) 10/* Category? */ < 1545959988 482193 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545960270 536400 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545961069 61357 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-196.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1545961564 409499 :Galaxymeow!~Galaxymeo@67.231.16.203 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545961573 821807 :Galaxymeow!~Galaxymeo@67.231.16.203 QUIT :Client Quit < 1545962094 384743 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545962347 341780 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1545963079 524049 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07PERPLEX14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58872 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+1023) 10Created page with "[[PERPLEX]] is an esolang created by [[Jussef Swissen]] (A pseudonym.) in 2014. It's basically a over-complicated version of BASIC. For example, PRINT is now INSCRIBE. Here's..." > 1545963180 654757 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Jussef Swissen14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58873 5* 03Areallycoolusername 5* (+86) 10Created page with "Jussef Swissen is a programmer that made [[PERPLEX]]. The name he uses is a pseudonym." > 1545963997 44792 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58874&oldid=58871 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+60) 10/* Category? */ No date in signature < 1545964291 997041 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1545964530 871174 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar ENVA < 1545964532 204545 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENVA 280150Z 26013KT 3300 RA SCT005 BKN009 OVC011 04/04 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 27018KT < 1545964545 385013 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's about how humid it feels < 1545964558 399252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@mtear KOAK < 1545964558 639568 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 280153Z 01007KT 10SM FEW200 12/M03 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP214 T01221033 < 1545964584 351439 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it california is pretty dry again < 1545964705 161337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :no smoke here at least < 1545964712 847323 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :my standards are low now hth < 1545964729 594021 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no smoke, no fire < 1545965394 982676 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1545965407 5420 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? descartes < 1545965410 86000 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :descartes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1545965412 865776 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? horse < 1545965414 156467 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse! < 1545965426 311036 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i guess we already have horses < 1545965427 553963 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545965603 284507 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1545966655 331632 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545966710 816776 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :blorgh. < 1545967036 307410 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545967036 395848 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1545967100 240459 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only flaw I can find in combinatory logic is that partial application and currying, at least from what I can see, requires you to to differentiate between partially applied sequences of combinators. < 1545967100 487643 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1545967120 281990 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545967532 973674 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545967561 226734 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545967645 723753 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545968132 689435 :MDead!~MDude@71.50.218.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545968199 73423 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: hmm, what is the task precisely? make a queue automaton that can reduce CL terms represented by strings generated by the grammar T ::= 'S' | 'K' | '`' T T? < 1545968279 48141 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmm, you had lower case s and k, but that hardly makes a difference) < 1545968292 880215 :MDude!~MDude@71.50.218.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1545968297 620001 :MDead!~MDude@71.50.218.48 NICK :MDude < 1545968306 352176 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially yeah. that's unlambda notation. < 1545968390 73639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the Unlambda notation for application. I used it in https://www.isa-afp.org/browser_info/current/AFP/Rewriting_Z/CL_Z.html ;) < 1545968445 755960 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, something that resembles it... it needed extra spaces and occarional parentheses to really work) < 1545968461 720533 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545968473 653600 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dig it as well. it solidifies that you always need at least two combinators, so to speak. "apply" is actually an operation in that notation, and that's actually derived from schonfinkel's paper. < 1545968626 703728 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545968817 488801 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how one mistypes 'r' for 's'...
< 1545968871 358824 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I do that? :o < 1545968878 439841 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I did :P < 1545968879 685493 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no. < 1545968883 85781 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lmao. < 1545968888 173319 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keys are like right there man. < 1545968928 79376 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not adjacent. So clumsiness is an unlikely reason :) < 1545968930 472535 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'r eary to do < 1545969175 163827 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruse, if you do it insentionally < 1545969623 826780 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint-e < 1545969633 812355 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like ZDDs? < 1545969923 907525 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1545971021 900080 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1545971694 237647 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1545971960 531767 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I made the program to use Glk with JavaScript. < 1545973763 903964 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545974050 732613 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545974946 25982 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1545975159 849619 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-070-034-085.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1545976120 52757 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see the people in girl genius are trying to raise a racket < 1545976228 339598 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1545976994 494521 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545977247 489496 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1545979635 90299 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: /quit and /part are in a boat. /part jumps out of the boat. who is left in the boat? < 1545980210 256607 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545980476 238859 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545980796 178712 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: ooph. http://paste.debian.net/1057746/ < 1545981858 461852 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: interesting. unlambda interpreter? < 1545981886 689143 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... < 1545981902 870944 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a string rewriting system?! < 1545982013 477133 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit. < 1545982539 106047 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: that's a queue automaton < 1545982559 795897 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> < 1545982568 203659 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the syntax I'm using < 1545982731 262471 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545982741 622939 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. so you only examine a single symbol at the head of the queue, then enqueue some string. < 1545982839 449638 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wow < 1545982942 398072 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545984052 52249 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really fascinating. how'd you whip that up so fast? < 1545984058 393614 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545984275 260461 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ < 1545984341 720862 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: hmm, having an interpreter is crucial; and I had an inspiration how skipping over a subterm could work (that logic uses the # and % symbols, and involves the first four states) < 1545984384 419802 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting... I've been trying to get subterm extraction working with the unlambda notation. < 1545984545 677848 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that logic, a % preceding a # somewhere has the effect of pushing the # one whole subterm further ahead. < 1545984614 7799 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having % makes skipping over `XY easy: we've read the `, so we put it back, put a % that will eventually push the # over the Y, then skip X. That's the logic of the # state. < 1545984633 677635 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :thaaaat... makes sense. < 1545984634 927640 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if # encounters an s, it'll just skip over that and drop the # marker; same for k) < 1545984815 950329 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question I have is can this be made combinator-agnostic. like it looks like you have specific interactions between specific combinators. if we had a larger basis, the state count would blow up. < 1545985152 997009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you'll have to add logic for all those combinators anyway, which will already blow things up. That said, you /can/ make the copying agnostic by some counting scheme (assign numbers to each symbol; decrement the symbol to 0 while copying; then you don't have to remember a whole symbol in a state) < 1545985184 277822 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also do some binary encoding, at the cost of a logarithmic number of states in the %/# handling. < 1545985223 611838 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. still is a little unweildy though. ideally we'd have some kind of "schema" that generates these state tables from equational definitions of combinators. < 1545985267 774318 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, you just add one pass over the whole string that replaces each combinator by the corresponding SK expression. < 1545985284 625897 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1545985300 345540 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might get smaller reduction times, though, with different bases. < 1545985374 771656 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was semi-golfing. I wanted a small number of extra symbols (3 right now, #, %, $) and a reasonably small number of states (20 now, not counting the halting state) < 1545985421 460252 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :translating this to an SRS would be trivial. < 1545985442 507024 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost trivial... you have to take care of the cyclic nature of the queue. < 1545985473 435642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you rewrite cycles ala https://www.win.tue.nl/~hzantema/cycrew.pdf < 1545985500 328 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it is trivial, just need to keep the states separate from the other symbols. < 1545985523 788391 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that I dreamt of (was napping earlier) was a reduction from combinatory logic to wang tilings and something like a counter machine. < 1545985564 877275 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the only thing I might want to add is 'i' and that's almost trivial... needs one extra state, I think. < 1545985594 379762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that extra state is for copying) < 1545985741 459601 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have states for Sk and SK, and these denote an explicit interaction between S and K, right? < 1545985753 640306 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF29B527148548DEE6AFF319.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1545985776 433957 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice you don't have any for K applied to S. < 1545985792 429847 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do have them for S applied to S. < 1545985816 870487 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: those are copying states. I got rid of SK, SS and S' in the latest paste. < 1545985822 449711 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:04:35 golfing... saving 3 states: http://paste.debian.net/1057754/ < 1545985830 119109 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh. < 1545985872 207442 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. so if I were to add for example C, I'd need to show how C interacts with S and K. < 1545986192 30786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :C would be similar to S. < 1545986214 665307 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(moving a string over another one, or copying it, is basically the same amount of work) < 1545986342 474300 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://paste.debian.net/1057755/ is what would be needed to implement `i`. So... basically all existing states get a new transition, and there's an Si state. This is atypical in that reducing `iX just removes the "`i" so that no marking of arguments or I* states are needed. < 1545986479 468746 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. Extensibility was not a goal. I wanted the default SK(optionally I) combinatory logic, nothing more. < 1545986530 429468 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awesome. :D < 1545986551 567702 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've at least shown me a compact implementation. thank you! < 1545987387 257503 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545987730 381314 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.. has anybody ever done wang tiling over arbitrary graphs, I wonder. < 1545987828 605079 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-assembling graphs.. < 1545988506 208514 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if there's a "background-agnostic" version of wang tiling, i.e "self-assembly" systems that don't rely on the idea of a planar backdrop to expand into. < 1545989939 638642 :user24!~user24@p200300C3AF29B527148548DEE6AFF319.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545991875 657078 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop. < 1545991946 974300 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, a CA that, initially, has a confined area of space for rules to be applicable in, but by way of local interactions, that space can grow. < 1545992622 331884 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1545995429 574552 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had an epiphany. any system of combinators can be encoded as a set of wang tiles. any set of wang tiles is essentially a "crystalline" CA, where one axis is time. combinatory logic thus may be able to be encoded pretty cleanly into something like a cellular automaton, and that just broke my brain. < 1545995471 272735 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am all the hype. < 1545996070 437790 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think any of that is true < 1545996074 332170 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried this out in practice < 1545996222 387808 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :justification for 1: a wang tiling is essentially a historical graph for any arbitrary cellular automaton or turing machine. along the Y axis is your history, along the X axis is your "tape", or your space. if you just keep a copy of the "most recent" piece of history, you can restrict yourself to one dimension. < 1545996284 648175 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :justification for 2: there exist encodings of combinatory logic within the context of wang tiles, such that the tilings formed by those tiles encode transformations of CL terms. it's a proposed method to write useful programs for self-assembling DNA tiles. < 1545996454 561999 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :result (and hypothesis): any system of combinators can be simulated as a 1D cellular automaton by encoding it as a set of wang tiles and discarding the history of the tiling formed by those tiles. < 1545996647 375954 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm right and all those pieces fit together (I don't see why they wouldn't), then this kind of paves the way for a massively parallel reduction machine for combinatory logic, and thus may give a solid foundation in hardware for incredibly fast high level languages based on CL. < 1545996844 595326 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, imagine you had a processor that just had a giant 1D array of parallel computing elements, each of which is just a glorified state machine. pre-load each element with the right FSM, provide the initial input (the CL expression you want to evaluate), and watch it run. < 1545997756 90047 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fgteczphktxfsvdd JOIN :#esoteric < 1545997768 838255 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok I see what you mean < 1545998500 912034 :shikhin!shikhin@lambdaos.org QUIT :Changing host < 1545998500 912087 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1545999084 540833 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1545999335 131915 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1545999407 291845 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1545999784 132064 :rain2!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545999853 369746 :rain1!~My_user_n@unaffiliated/rain1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1546002469 631736 :laerling_!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1546002472 933333 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1546003165 641630 :laerling_!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1546003213 236875 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yawns
< 1546003416 652861 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect I should've gone to bed instead of playing with queue automata :) < 1546004664 422056 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1546004666 240989 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1546004669 455234 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? very exponential < 1546004670 545676 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :very exponential? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1546007473 860831 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1546007884 755996 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this something like (10^100)^n ? < 1546008081 375672 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say n^n < 1546008249 642864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, the two uses of "exponential"... < 1546008273 873391 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1546008301 150095 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :n^n = O(2^n^2) is EXP, but grows faster than any exponential function. < 1546008399 128495 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1546009127 440424 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that so? < 1546009165 352493 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it just e^(n log n)? i can name a few exponential funktions that grow faster < 1546009204 33365 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's what I mean by "exponential function": f(n) = a * b^n for constants a, b. < 1546009217 981716 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1546009263 658480 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... a very exponential function is an exponential function that grows faster than exponential functions? < 1546009319 570204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complexity theorists mess this up because they close most their classes under polynomial time (or at least logspace) reductions. < 1546009415 168988 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1546010106 472004 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1546010846 856854 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1546011111 847598 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcjpltykrbgmmx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1546011516 509313 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1546011714 705428 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1546011714 832746 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1546013059 630866 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1546014536 269390 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fgteczphktxfsvdd QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1546016995 437252 :nchambers!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1546017410 735884 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1546017411 484797 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :76) I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... < 1546017547 318538 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1546017548 65147 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :459) I gave her the Noblesse Oblige rooms. She was happy with them even when they were behind 2 locked doors and a floodgate and full of water. < 1546018065 296912 :derpy_!~quassel@ppp-62-216-204-119.dynamic.mnet-online.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1546018198 812275 :derpy!~quassel@ppp-62-216-204-110.dynamic.mnet-online.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1546019482 644521 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1546019483 327188 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :958) i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives < 1546019839 15654 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good one < 1546019870 150069 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's an unexplored area of fiction < 1546019946 111643 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: maybe it's unexplored, maybe you just don't read far enough into the longer pornographic Hitler fanfiction pieces < 1546019960 737581 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1546019962 509114 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch. < 1546019967 992720 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: help! < 1546019968 477886 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: we have in fnord relationships, that co-operation, the committee recognised that the proposals also included the albert kennedy trust from the 1990s, and the time to be the one to which i can attest, is still part of the governments considerations, and the then secretary of state. < 1546019984 727936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: thanks. < 1546019985 30171 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: the eu and, for too many, and the care of fnord peers, and the home secretary that the government would conduct a form, people end up in the same as the one the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i, and, < 1546020017 757963 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hon. and learned friend fungot is still in Brexit mode? < 1546020018 9490 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the country is the second biggest in the uk. when i will be available. i have been a minister in the house, which is saving it some of those regulations, but when the government have < 1546020188 58224 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :second biggest in UK? that must be Scotland < 1546020246 835497 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what are the other news? < 1546020247 88742 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: on the important question of constitutional and economic implications. it was the right hon. and hon. and right hon. < 1546020307 89849 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: all economy these days. Aren’t there something new in the field of prepromorphisms? < 1546020307 424168 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: what i have said, that the government introduced the new, tougher system under the education act 1996, the government actuarys report and john stevenson be members, including 150,000 acres, the entire way of thinking, the type that the hon. member the leave of the house, < 1546020339 859306 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, < 1546020401 871154 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? albert kennedy trust < 1546020402 937860 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :albert kennedy trust? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1546020439 771889 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be surprised if prepromorphisms was even in fungot's vocabulary for this style. (Not sure about the irc style... it seems unlikely, but might just be there.) < 1546020439 892786 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: i do. we are to be fnord. i am right, that being speaker of the fnord < 1546020457 206010 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every style has expert knowledge on fnords though. < 1546020547 750848 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they have a category-theoretic style? < 1546020615 742591 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least Oleg Kiselyov style maybe (hm but why him) < 1546020687 615477 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: finally tagless eh? < 1546020687 883090 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: to be as we all anticipate following a very few exceptional circumstances, i have to have some of the highest at 25,800. local government, local government, and working-age people, can be considerable, and the only people to have suffered fnord under the eu arrangements < 1546020716 422389 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least there is another fnord < 1546020875 550713 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :if somebody’s interested, the last OpenMPT version, 1.28, now supports all (printable, I think) ASCII chars in custom tunings’ note names, when using a custom font for the pattern editor < 1546020988 677373 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though there’s possibly a bug when rendering &, for me it displays as a color-inverted pipe currently) < 1546021038 485483 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it seems it should be fixable easily if it’s really OpenMPT’s bug and not something with my font) < 1546021110 215961 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that's appropriate. & is just a | with the inputs and output negated < 1546021192 466955 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol :D didn’t think about it < 1546021300 824774 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1546021301 496349 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :235) actually the first joke i thought elliott was making was that he's so small masturbation is gay pedophilia < 1546022320 544198 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1546022405 933372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm beautiful documentation: http://bach.istc.kobe-u.ac.jp/iSATLib/doc/iSATLibrary/ISatLibrary.html < 1546022475 811936 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think this is just meta information, perhaps "list of classes", "list of interfaces"... the actual documentation (where present) seems to be in English... but still... < 1546022547 399261 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pity that it's written in Java though. < 1546022581 219491 :nchambers!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers NICK :uplime < 1546022812 774155 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :no encoding specified in html code :( < 1546022903 546181 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason the only cases a wrong encoding is detected the last decade or so is for Japanese webpages only < 1546022910 96903 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1546022938 684954 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :suspicious < 1546022992 611336 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: hmm, nor in the HTTP headers < 1546023082 662799 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: are you sure it's wrong encoding detected, as opposed to text snippets in multiple encodings mixed into the same HTML? < 1546023216 796256 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :because mixed or corrupt encoded text is annoyingly common < 1546023274 201324 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don’t want to overgeneralize but these Japanese encodings are… I mean, why do they seem to not care to indicate them each time, it should just be a bad luck < 1546023274 354236 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: maybe, but if I select “Japanese” in autodetect encoding menu in Firefox, it goes normal, Japanese + English. Originally this time it was detected as a Cyrillic mess (+ English) < 1546023306 449192 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, it is worse in japanese < 1546023348 55638 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe this is one encoding all the way, just as it’s not specified the browser thinks it should better parse all text with settings for my default languages < 1546023527 878702 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually... my browser does misidentify the encoding as well < 1546023574 143427 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: a pity, really. I mean, there’s possible a ton of pages in Win-1251 with no encoding maybe even in headers, and there should also even be that DOS encoding 866 or something somewhere, but I can’t easily see and usually don’t visit those kinds of pages — but what did they do to Javadoc to strip the encoding data, is it trivial at all, and if it’s not, why?.. (rhetoric) < 1546023659 725039 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Win-1251 and that DOS one are Cyrillic encodings, they should probably be preferred when autodetecting with my lang settings) < 1546024194 106418 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1546024226 956429 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1546024484 959750 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1546025161 426140 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1546026055 29670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1546026055 146315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1546026063 131389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick < 1546026099 631694 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1546026102 724993 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a C code will 'xy' equal ('x'*'\1\0'+'y'*'\0\1') even though 'xy' may be different by different computers? < 1546026104 404843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1546026127 279089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1546026149 984062 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't think that's promised. it's impl'n-defined behavior, so read the manual of your architecture or compiler. < 1546026198 947445 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, that's a GCC extension anyways. < 1546026222 418060 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(multi-character char literals are not ISO C in the slightest) < 1546026268 158619 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "implementation-defined"... < 1546026281 898882 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all bets are off since compiler writers can't be trusted to be reasonable ;) < 1546027028 931299 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the program I made to use Glk with JavaScript? Later I had found a implementation of Glk in JavaScript (mine uses an implementation in C), although the API does not match, although I think that my API is look like better, in my opinion. < 1546027279 985576 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "vm" mechanism in Node.js does not have a function to execute a code with a separate call stack. < 1546028230 234033 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.6.191.dynamic.ufanet.ru QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1546028590 419086 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1546028693 865176 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1546028727 935268 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a "Glk"? < 1546028730 643745 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Glk < 1546028731 679572 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glk? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1546028811 228510 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.eblong.com/zarf/glk/glk-spec-075.html ... fits one of zzo38's many interests (IF) < 1546029298 50744 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqhpriryttfsrnrm JOIN :#esoteric < 1546029617 286039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: re: implementing combinatory logic, most methods I've seen have the concepts of an S1 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 1 argument), an S2 closure (i.e. S partially applied to 2 arguments), and a K1 closure (i.e. K partially applied to 1 argument) < 1546029634 554842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't really need a general system, just those three types of closure specifically < 1546029667 646008 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1546029785 749902 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's the method http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ describes < 1546029796 153367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the simplest general system I know is the Underload-style system where things /start out/ as closures and just get escaped and unescaped < 1546029846 379223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and composed < 1546029884 656622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(…) a * ^ are the important operations for an Underload-alike to behave like a combinator calculus < 1546029895 687096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :: is sort-of irrelevant except that you need it for TCness < 1546029916 78018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could replace it with some other operation (S serves this purpose in SK combinator calculus) < 1546029952 697202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously, ~ ! S are hardly necessary (and were some of the first operations to be minimized out) < 1546029955 775635 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I figured as much. I've recently discovered a method of encoding CL terms and applications in wang tiles, and they appear to use a similar encoding to underload. < 1546029975 157020 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: What method is that? < 1546029996 467581 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I permitted to post sci-hub links here? < 1546030022 801887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd come under Freenode rules, and I'm guessing no < 1546030024 513838 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but you could post the doi perhaps < 1546030052 297866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can post the name or a unique identifier of the paper and people would be able to find it their own way (e.g. many people here may have legitimate access to it) < 1546030086 938988 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a publically available PDF version: http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1032/paper-01.pdf < 1546030185 549419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glk does not seems to have a style that is matching TAVERN's "Reverse" style. However, it is possible to determine if the story requires it or not, without trying to execute it. < 1546030337 813344 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :by way of discarding all but the current bottom-most row in a tiling, CL reduction can look like a cellular automaton. < 1546030368 364360 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something akin to a smart shift register can reclaim the "dead space" used by applications. < 1546030439 310930 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1546030581 141155 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hm. now I'm curious... a CA/tiling that can generate its own backdrop. ← that reminds me of the 0E0P metacell in the Game of Life, although it isn't exactly the same thing < 1546030770 744061 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :massively parallel reduction algorithms for things like lambda calculus, combinatory logic, and Underload-alikes are pretty easy to express, the problem is "internal" infinite loops < 1546030816 636307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you have something like "if (0) { } else { while(1); }" (except written functionally rather than imperatively), these parallel algorithms will be sending some of their threads to try to normalize the loop body < 1546030830 567014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need some way to kill computations from outside when they're no longer needed < 1546030896 800922 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but ! being unncessary is kind of a surprise, because you know how the Mockingbird book has a whole chapter on how discarding is necessary < 1546030938 640632 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still looking for that thing which is somewhere between a macro and an inline function. I don't know if it makes sense or if any language has it. < 1546030959 718133 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't think the wiki has an article on bitbuckets yet < 1546030969 4829 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not normally too hard to maintain one < 1546030972 754258 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :back. ais523: an implementation of CL in terms of a cellular automaton would still enable you to do that, but there's no "threading" going on. < 1546031022 940801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiw, this is one of the many problems underlying Feather, and probably the one I've put the most effort into < 1546031032 628260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this one is solvable, although some of the others aren't < 1546031172 493064 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1546031224 657997 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, the trick is probably that Mockingbird doesn't claim that you can't get Turing-completeness without discard. all it claims is that you can't get discarding combinators from non-discarding ones, so you can't get all combinators without one. < 1546031247 471556 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what you found in Underload too: you can't get discard from the other primitives, instead you simulate it < 1546031294 517325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1546031297 113359 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, they're not really equivalent < 1546031301 646266 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underload is a bit more powerful < 1546031414 188589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering what an Underload→combinators compilation looks like < 1546031429 225264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other way is fairly easy) < 1546031443 422274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you might have to write a full interpreter including a Church-encoded stack < 1546031444 864488 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll probably have a linked list stack for that, plus optimize the top elements whenever you can resolve them at compile time < 1546031447 867165 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that < 1546031469 437355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Underload freely lets you write unbalanced loops < 1546031800 127772 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1546032157 660407 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :are wang tiles generalizable to arbitrary graphs with a color requirement and out degree? < 1546032211 11783 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would just be degree. < 1546032997 445498 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1546033138 604100 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1546034463 962397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect it to have to be infinite graphs (although finite Wang tiles could potentially be interesting for things like SAT-solving), but apart from that they generalise pretty simply < 1546034503 328257 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one issue is that the square grid that's normally used isn't quite a graph, because the edges at each point have identities (you can't permute them arbitrarily, e.g. you can't connect the N, E, S, W sides of the tile to the N, S, E, W adjacent squares respectively) < 1546034843 390528 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know anything about #SAT? I'm wondering whether https://github.com/marcthurley/sharpSAT is still state of the art. < 1546034908 444571 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm not very up to date with SAT solvers < 1546034918 991179 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://beyondnp.org/pages/solvers/model-counters-exact/ had an overview. < 1546034943 950033 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's comparatively easy for SAT, because of the SAT competitions. < 1546034967 434434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the name #SAT reminds me of complexity classes like #P < 1546034971 834684 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But #SAT is not quite the same, the tradeoffs are quite different. < 1546034990 345303 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One thing I've learned is that #SAT is often called "model counting" in the literature) < 1546034991 214375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, it /is/ in fact the defining problem of #P < 1546035013 894915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I'm confused, maybe this is what you were talking about in the first place < 1546035025 489704 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But never mind then, it's just something that could have been in your area of interest. :) < 1546035066 935264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the sort of thing that I'm broadly interested in despite not knowing much about < 1546035156 909162 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, count or parity? < 1546035171 858791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wafer grid means exact count, right? < 1546035180 619781 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, # is exact count < 1546035190 919251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so #SAT is "how many ways are there to solve this boolean satisfaction problem?" < 1546035196 662005 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a screwdriver head with a plus-shaped groove for parity < 1546035225 879089 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmpf < 1546035232 911033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oplus, as they say in LaTeX < 1546035239 557891 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1546035240 250346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ⊕ in Unicode < 1546035245 59717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ⊕ < 1546035246 829794 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+2295 CIRCLED PLUS] < 1546035281 627714 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd *expect* that finding the parity of the number of solutions is essentially as hard as counting them, but how would one go about proving or refuting such a claim? < 1546035307 280817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you refute it by making determinant-signed counting easier < 1546035319 687156 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: for #P at lesat < 1546035347 232757 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :create matrix whose permanent is the count, then observe that the determinant has the same parity as the permanent, < 1546035352 352272 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that you can solve the determinant fast < 1546035377 324414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I know about permanents, but that just means that this is not a hard problem for parity-#SAT. < 1546035396 986128 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that's for #P versus (+)P < 1546035407 730365 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no clue about #SAT versus (+)SAT < 1546035419 765263 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some problems which obviously have an even number of solutions, but you can't easily determine how many there are < 1546035438 616792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. via exploiting a symmetry of the problem < 1546035455 221496 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or just adding a 2-valued variable that takes place in no constraint < 1546035462 964644 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does that help? < 1546035469 551738 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're concerned about the hardest problems < 1546035501 242199 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter if one specific input behaves differently < 1546035580 600918 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, permanent is #P-complete. Hmm hmm. I should find a proof. < 1546035661 454837 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1546035708 370756 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1979. Let's see. < 1546035822 973194 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, it's so long after Euler, because for a very long time, nobody rediscovered complexity theory and SAT and Cook-Levin < 1546035918 44053 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's not clear, a priori, that such a reduction has to preserve the parity.) < 1546036272 588849 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: interesting, what would a generalization of wang tiles be then? < 1546036342 483225 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: But Is It Art?? < 1546036384 360364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most direct would be generalizations to arbitrary tilings < 1546036393 38422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BIIA? is more of a special case than a generalization < 1546036412 145817 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, it works either way < 1546036448 63965 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can simulate BIIA with Wang tiles, one tile per character cell, or backwards, Wang tiles with BIIA, each BIIA tile roughly same sized square shaped with different edges < 1546036454 372664 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's both < 1546036462 106014 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think of it the latter way < 1546036465 206546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, they can each implement the other fairly directly < 1546036534 819041 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something _like_ wang tilings over general topologies are what I'm kind of wondering about. I think something like port graphs have something to say about this... < 1546036555 561104 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :tilings rely on a background "plane" to do their thing. what happens if you get rid of that. < 1546036572 878642 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you've got me thinking about Wang Penrose tiles < 1546036617 117109 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so different grid, only it's not quite a "grid"? < 1546036638 893794 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda yeah. < 1546036660 417650 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wang tiles but the arity requirements can vary per tile. < 1546037150 888740 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also tile the hyperbolic plane < 1546037168 185981 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, tilings do generalize to non-Euclidean topologies < 1546037188 735358 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the elliptic plane have infinite tilings? I'd expect them to all be finite < 1546037204 952838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, uniform tilings, that is < 1546037216 114349 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you can create a non-uniform infinite tiling just by drawing lines at random < 1546037232 255268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it wouldn't be well-defined < 1546037243 332165 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius.html - spot the heptagons :) < 1546037318 950461 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1546037326 243413 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I could make a version that has 4 regular pentagons meet at every vertex, hmm. Maybe some other time.) < 1546037451 278174 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1546037601 825425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Order-4_pentagonal_tiling ? < 1546037629 933477 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non-Euclidean geometries are awkward though in that translations generate rotations. < 1546037655 543290 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: yep < 1546037735 988413 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make a better drawing of what I'm trying to show on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/randvoronoi.html ? < 1546037878 277106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I happen to be listening to the soundtrack to HyperRogue at the moment, and that + the font in the title + the hyperbolic geometry in the link left me somewhat confused for a moment < 1546038002 94741 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1546038029 676455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruxor also has a web javascript thingy for showing a kind of Penrose aperiodic tiling too somewhere < 1546038056 699552 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'm lost... font in the title? < 1546038076 152714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the font my browser uses to render the title on the page is the same font HyperRogue happens to use for all its in-game text, including titles < 1546038098 766598 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-04-24.2512.html < 1546038131 948948 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: title on which page? my page? my page doesn't set the font, it leaves it as the client default < 1546038153 236302 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my page doesn't set a font either. http://roguetemple.com/z/hyper/ has an image in the headline. < 1546038161 77047 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: the page int-e linked < 1546038178 693651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my browser is probably set to use the same font as HyperRogue for titles if no font is specified by coincidence < 1546038194 441189 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, let me check. I usually have font overrides disabled, so I don't see original fonts on webpages < 1546038203 650313 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :font changes on webpages are abused more often than they're used well < 1546038210 93971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is, specifically, DejaVu Sans < 1546038215 938212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when they're used well, that's because of limitations of web infrastructure < 1546038273 560200 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, default font < 1546038275 303357 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :DejaVu Serif here (I may have selecte "serif" as a standard somewhere) < 1546038289 372277 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be interesting to see what the Web would look like if sites had no method of forcing layout at all < 1546038294 592171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just semantic tags and the browser chooses layout < 1546038294 956726 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, int-e.eu ? is this a new domain? < 1546038305 156991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :new? < 1546038312 721512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not possible, people will always try to find a way to force layout < 1546038314 732850 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I don't recall seeing it < 1546038363 328808 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's not all that much there. But it should appear in the logs. I've had it for some years. < 1546038389 31824 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. you can't have fancy scripting and images and canvases but no fonts. that'd just lead to webpages emulating fonts the slow way. < 1546038405 366666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people used to force layout back before CSS was widespread… < 1546038421 20584 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and table is still very useful, because CSS gets complicated < 1546038427 777907 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost 6 years by now. < 1546038439 347729 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :before flex were supported, we definitely needed tables to do some sorts of layout on the web < 1546038443 364709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not for layout, please don't do that as it makes it very hard for end users to make styling tweaks < 1546038443 536494 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what the CSS guys said < 1546038451 973151 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think even now with flex supported, tables might still be useful < 1546038456 686148 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for screen readers and the like to understand the page < 1546038459 887471 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I could be wrong in that, I don't yet understand how the heck flex works < 1546038473 277578 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but some layouts are just impossible to write without tables < 1546038475 719002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSS flex is missing lots of features I'd like to use, but those features generally aren't possible with tables either < 1546038477 298425 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or very hard at least < 1546038573 689339 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that not only fonts, but also fancy images, scripts, canvas, and layout are also abused much. Forcing layout (and perhaps also fonts) are probably more useful for paged media than continuous anyways, I should think (but even for paged media the user may wish to override them). < 1546038585 915174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason the bottom-right corner of The Waterfall Model Online isn't used for anything, for example < 1546038602 222431 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have font overrides disabled on my web browser, although I would want to enable font overrides for SVG and PDF but disabled for HTML; but, it doesn't seems to do that. < 1546038623 625998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it has a few abuses of CSS Flex to automatically adapt to small screens, but the effects that that has on z-order makes that area unusable in a large-screen layout without making it show up on top of other text in a small-screen layout) < 1546038645 879341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also overlapping stuff, truncating stuff, and line-height. seriously, line-height! have you EVER seen an actually good use of line-height in a webpage, as opposed to in a non-HTML printed document? < 1546038683 407505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing I dislike is the way that styles are seen as something for the site to provide, rather than something for the user to provide < 1546038693 397049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sites are forced into adding at least minimal styling because most default stylesheets are terrible < 1546038699 234703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, and CSS conditionals just aren't powerful enough yet to handle all the things you want for adapting to different heigths < 1546038706 786448 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, although with suitable extensions the user can provide. < 1546038734 36951 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also many webpages abuse adapting to different screen sizes by changing their webpage on small sizes to hide important interface elements < 1546038737 837540 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have ranted about that, right? < 1546038761 950108 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :about that webpage that hides the password change option unless you view it in a wide browser window < 1546038786 348874 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, that is true, too. When I design webpages there usually is no or minimal CSS, and rarely any images, but I use the accesskey attribute more often. Scripts are rare except for stuff which is used optionally (such as the MD5 calculation on my database of Magic: the Gathering cards; you can just as well use a different MD5 implementation if you want an account, too). < 1546038819 152246 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely use CSS except to override the CSS to webpages that already have CSS. For webpages that do not have CSS it is rare to need to add any. < 1546038867 949146 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think so? < 1546038930 791756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tables are useful for making a table or grid of data. < 1546038942 939659 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'd still like to find out is how to add both mathml and legacy html for non-mathml-capable browsers in a sane way < 1546038955 138759 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't mathml has a built-in way to add fallbacks, like img and script do? < 1546038980 219769 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate whoever designed them without a fallback < 1546038987 683746 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes the whole thing worthless < 1546038988 209524 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Not sure whether those images can be improved. One thing that might be interesting to exhibit difference is to choose the color based on the area of each polyhedron... and perhaps the number of vertices. < 1546039018 276733 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they could be improved by rendering them more precisely and at a larger area. only my code is very simple and too slow to do that. < 1546039025 693947 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't be hard to compute it properly < 1546039037 597642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh are you brutally computing nearest neighbours? < 1546039048 877736 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, choosing color well in some way is also a hard problem < 1546039052 635536 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah :-( < 1546039055 974285 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a quick experiment < 1546039085 207262 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Sorry that may have come across as far more judgemental than it should be... I'd probably do the same. < 1546039096 144269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a good first pass to check how it works < 1546039106 497878 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then I could optimize it if I spent some time on it < 1546039128 459947 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1546039150 743239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't really into computational geometry.
< 1546039231 721578 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But actually... you can estimate the area based on pixels. Counting corners is harder :) < 1546039271 781972 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you should color just according to number of corners or area. You could compute it, but I don't think that's the output I want. < 1546039431 845864 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that in 2D you tend to have clusters of several small polygons, while in higher dimensions you actually get isolated small polygons much more frequently. < 1546039459 740314 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's something that may become visible when coloring by area. I may also be completely wrong. < 1546039498 805518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, but I'd prefer not to have adjacent areas with a similar color < 1546039510 598867 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my random coloring fails that < 1546039674 971204 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally it should be a vector graphic and then one could actually draw edges... < 1546039699 518976 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'd be too lazy to actually do it. < 1546039962 669811 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-104.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you coudl do it, but you needn't. you can just optimize the pixel graphics properly. < 1546040867 920072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1546041439 621245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: So the 1979 paper (Valiant, "The complexity of computing the permanent") is inconclusive about the relation between (+)SAT and #SAT. The reduction to permanent multiplies the number of solutions by some 4^e where e = Theta(|F|), F being the input which is a formula in CNF with no unit clauses.