00:31:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:35:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:37:15 -!- FreeFull has joined.
02:00:09 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting).
02:14:58 -!- nfd9001 has joined.
03:33:44 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
03:36:35 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
03:57:38 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
03:59:08 -!- FreeFull has quit.
04:02:05 -!- Camto has joined.
04:08:02 -!- Camto has quit (Quit: Page closed).
04:24:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
04:25:16 <b_jonas> or a hellhound that breathes fire?
04:27:57 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving).
04:28:40 <imode> I've got this weird idea for a fusion of a programming language, editor and database. the premise is that it's based on combinatory logic, but instead of you typing in expressions and evaluating them, combinators are "unevaluated" until you navigate to the branch you want to evaluate and hit "eval".
04:29:06 <imode> and you traverse/construct the expression tree like you were navigating a filesystem.
04:49:33 <zzo38> b_jonas: Those are some examples
05:09:37 -!- nfd has joined.
05:10:00 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
05:13:05 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:21:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
05:34:10 -!- hexfive has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2).
05:56:40 -!- moony has quit (Killed (Sigyn (BANG!))).
05:56:59 -!- moony has joined.
06:35:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
07:10:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
07:34:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pop MAXXXIM * New user account
08:03:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
09:25:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
09:30:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58793&oldid=58760 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+168) /* Introductions */
09:30:30 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+1427) Created page with "LolKek - . ..."
09:35:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58795&oldid=58789 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+13) /* L */
09:35:56 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58796&oldid=58794 * Pop MAXXXIM * (-3)
09:44:29 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58797&oldid=58796 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+783)
09:48:10 <esowiki> [[LolKek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58798&oldid=58797 * Pop MAXXXIM * (+78)
10:03:11 -!- b_jonas has joined.
10:07:39 <esowiki> [[Andromeda]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58799&oldid=56198 * ZM * (+47) Related languages
10:17:02 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
11:08:42 -!- FreeFull has joined.
11:34:36 -!- LKoen has joined.
12:04:51 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
12:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58800&oldid=58792 * Ais523 * (+125) /* Boolean circuits? */ sig
12:43:16 -!- Hoolootwo has joined.
13:02:05 -!- arseniiv has joined.
13:08:55 -!- imode has joined.
14:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:15:41 -!- Essadon has joined.
14:20:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:29:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:30:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”).
15:01:45 -!- arseniiv has joined.
15:10:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dirkdev98 * New user account
15:13:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58801&oldid=58793 * Dirkdev98 * (+124) /* Introductions */
15:25:03 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:28:40 <oerjan> too we seriously need a policy that articles must be in english...
15:29:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: I disagree. we should accept articles in other languages too.
15:33:24 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has joined.
15:36:01 <oerjan> i take it you understand LolKek perfectly, then.
15:36:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:36:13 -!- Lord_of_Life_ has changed nick to Lord_of_Life.
15:36:34 <oerjan> i suspect it has limited byte size...
15:38:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: i mean, the language doesn't even look russian-themed, the command themselves are english-based
15:38:26 <oerjan> it's just the specification.
15:38:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: "english-based"? no, those are just assembly mnemonics, the actual commands are single bytes with the bits shown on the right
15:39:43 <b_jonas> but even if they were named, so what? have you seen localized Excel or Logo? they're horrible
15:40:24 <b_jonas> it makes sense to have command mnemonics in English. I mean, think about it, there's not even any sane Hungarian words for "stack", "hash", "deque", and those are just the basics, it gets worse after that when you want loops or something
15:41:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's a good reason why that one too has docs that calls a stack "стек"
15:41:27 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice the bits, they were almost beyond the scrollbar
15:41:46 <b_jonas> mind you, I hate languages like this, stack-based and have arithmetic operations but no comparison
15:41:59 <b_jonas> you know, like Blindfolded arithmetics
15:48:37 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58802&oldid=58791 * Oerjan * (+5) fix link
15:49:47 -!- MDude has joined.
16:07:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58803&oldid=58801 * Oerjan * (+0) *beglmru*
16:09:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58804&oldid=58803 * Oerjan * (-30) Oops
16:21:46 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58805&oldid=58802 * Oerjan * (-5) typo
16:28:12 -!- nchambers has joined.
16:30:13 -!- nchambers has changed nick to Rudolph.
17:23:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
17:29:08 -!- xkapastel has joined.
17:34:07 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:22:59 -!- Rudolph has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2).
18:50:46 <zzo38> If you know their meaning in English then you should write the article in English too
18:51:16 -!- rodgort has joined.
18:58:49 <zzo38> Also, the categories will still need to be English even if the article itself isn't.
19:02:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not worth for such stupid articles. am I supposed to write good articles on all the brainfuck substitutions too?
19:03:22 <b_jonas> if it was something worthwhile, I might document it. I did so with some languages that weren't yet summarized in the esowiki.
19:10:08 <arseniiv> hi, if my language expertise is of any use, I’m here
19:13:50 <arseniiv> yeah seems it isn’t Russian-based, but the description is too terse but it doesn’t seem anything special, just stacks, variables, arithmetic, (bitwise?) logic, delay (what for? but ok) and two strange things named “increment/decrement of the stack by k4” — IDK what it means
19:15:22 <b_jonas> arseniiv: stacks of limited capacity too
19:15:36 <b_jonas> so limited it's basically pointless
19:15:45 <arseniiv> oh, so it’s even Turing-incomplete
19:16:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm not claiming that. it may have some stuff other than the stack that stores data
19:16:11 <b_jonas> I don't quite understand what it says
19:16:50 <arseniiv> BTW have you someone know about algebraic effects? I read about them several months ago and they seemed very beautiful to me
19:17:50 <arseniiv> yeah you guess right, let me translate, it definitely states the following at the start of the description:
19:21:55 <zzo38> OK, you don't have to do, the
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > Stack — the main stack, 64 levels [I think it’s not a usual word here, but it should mean the maximal length is 64], with 32-bit value [each level has a 32-bit value, it probably means]
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > Stack2 — the additional stack, 32 levels, 32-bit values
19:22:11 <arseniiv> > variables — 14 in total, with 32-bit values
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: error: parse error on input ‘,’
19:22:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:16: error: parse error on input ‘in’
19:22:33 <arseniiv> oh sorry lambdabot, I didn’t mean that
19:23:06 <int-e> fungot: do you have a <hint> as well?
19:23:06 <fungot> int-e: for the hon. and learned friend the minister for that, and i have is sharing the community of fnord, the home of the other channel 4 creative and fnord industries, most fnord junction and areas to be police blind. the 19%, the state, leaving the people with the expertise.
19:23:31 <b_jonas> arseniiv: a stack of depth 64. seems normal, given that stacks are supposedly illustrated by stacks of plates in elegant buffets moved by a spring so that the top plate is always at the same heigth
19:23:46 <arseniiv> I couldn’t quite place where the author means to take non-zero values for variables (are Incr/Decr for that), though
19:24:07 <b_jonas> I don't think any buffet actually uses such spring mechanism these days, but it's a nice image nevertheless.
19:25:27 <arseniiv> yeah, I think “levels” there mean stack cells, there is no sane alternatives, but the author could word it more normally as “стек глубины 64”, literally “of depth 64”
19:25:49 <arseniiv> a buffet image is interesting, I haven’t heard of it :)
19:26:29 <arseniiv> though I don’t remember what image was supposed to illustrate stacks when I first read about them
19:26:48 <int-e> Is "стек" an authentic transcription?
19:27:38 <arseniiv> yeah, there is an alternative стэк, but it is worse and it’s not normative I think
19:27:38 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, it's a pity there's no good Hungarian translation for "stack", especially not one that doesn't just sound like a "heap", not even counting the ambiguity where "heap" means two completely different things in algorithms
19:27:47 <b_jonas> the state of art is "verem". :-(
19:28:17 <b_jonas> and that's typical for all the mathematics terminology. it works well in English and even better in French, but very few people care about making it work in Hungarian.
19:28:52 <int-e> IOW, nobody likes Hungarian notation.
19:29:03 <arseniiv> there’s an inconvenience with Russian е that usually it makes the preceding consonant palatalized, but in loanwords it usually doesn’t. There’s э for that, but a small set of loanwords uses it for that
19:29:35 <arseniiv> so стек is easier on the eyes, however irregular it really is
19:30:21 <int-e> I did expect 'э'. But I guess 'styek' is close enough. I agree it's easier on the eyes.
19:30:42 <int-e> And closer to actual russian words.
19:31:12 <int-e> In the end it is what it is.
19:31:35 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, you remind me of поток, which could mean stream or thread. So some people used to translate the latter literally as нить. These days I think people got accustomed to homonymy
19:31:44 <int-e> My New Year's resolution is my New Year's resolution. https://xkcd.com/703/
19:32:01 <b_jonas> maybe it's a steak. though how you can push and pull 32-bit values on a steak, I don't know
19:32:50 <b_jonas> int-e: meh, once you get used to the crazy English homonyms, all the others seem tame
19:33:15 <b_jonas> especially of fields. English maths terminology does borrow from german occasionally, so why didn't they just say "corpse" or "corps" or something?
19:33:15 <int-e> A steak is plenty enough for more than 8 nibbles.
19:33:18 <arseniiv> int-e: do note however that it’s read as /stek/, without palatalization (I may have worded that unclearly)
19:34:06 <b_jonas> www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html#d.2015-03-20.2284 surely I have linked to this piece of writing about English used for maths articles, right?
19:34:12 <int-e> arseniiv: it didn't get across but I think that's my fault, not yours.
19:35:34 <b_jonas> arseniiv: meh, since I do read some Hungarian texts, I'm totally used to english loanwords being spelled with random english spellings, that NEVER GET CHANGED OVER TO SANE PHONETIC SPELLINGS, ever, not even when the word is obviously nativized and everyone knows it,
19:35:51 <b_jonas> like how people still spell "ímél" as "e-mail",
19:36:14 <b_jonas> and the fucking Academy is such a pushover that they even officially allow the latter as a valid alternative in their spelling rules,
19:36:46 <b_jonas> probably because they're afraid that if they didn't do so, sysadmins would get angry at them, and sysadmins being angry with you is the right kind of thing to fear. those guys hold lots of power.
19:36:49 <int-e> we should stick to tradition and say "electronic mail" and "idiotic phone" as we used to.
19:45:45 <arseniiv> I don’t like typical Russian attitude to language norm, it’s too strict, people untaught in linguistics proper often believe there can/should be only one correct word spelling or punctuation in a sentence, or that a normative language should be used not only in special places but everywhere, sometimes it gets horrible. I hope the future attitude to Russian language would be more free, and also less commas in the punctuation rules. Cu
19:45:45 <arseniiv> rrently there is a plethora of purely syntactic commas which do not clarify the meaning, and in several cases they even obscure it as there is a comma after every word (meh). Then on the internets people often write without punctuation at all, as its rules are too complex, and get incoherent
19:48:11 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah, prescriptionists
19:48:29 <b_jonas> wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those?
19:48:49 <int-e> "I will say, that a man must be a d—d fool, who can’t spell a word more than one way." -- https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/06/25/spelling/ tracking down a quote often attributed to Mark Twain.
19:48:53 <b_jonas> the Hungarian rules for commas make much more sense than the English ones. I don't understand how you could get anything worse than the random "rules" people use for English
19:50:08 <int-e> In English, most commas are a matter of style, not rules.
19:50:54 <int-e> @google "Oxford comma"
19:50:55 <lambdabot> https://www.grammarly.com/blog/what-is-the-oxford-comma-and-why-do-people-care-so-much-about-it/
19:52:18 <b_jonas> yeah, I may be exaggerating a bit about the Hungarian rules
19:52:39 <int-e> . o O ( People have, said that there is no way a comma, can ever be, wrong in English. But people are often wr,ong. )
19:53:35 <arseniiv> wait, "purely syntactic commas"? what are those? => I meant here those that surround a syntagm or something sufficietly syntagm-like, for several syntagm types these commas are almost obligatory, for example for postpositive participle phrases (if I mean it right) consisting of not a participle only
19:54:37 <arseniiv> also there are many idiosyncratic exceptions almost to every rule, spelling and punctuation alike
19:55:21 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah. like the rule about the comma with certain common conjunctions in Hungarian. those things are crazy.
19:55:27 <b_jonas> it's only the inter-clause commas that have sane rules.
19:55:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas> what? => I mean, prescriptionists
19:56:36 <arseniiv> I myself don’t like some ways to (ab)use language, sometimes even hate, but I don’t want to prescribe my feelings to anyone. At least for now
19:57:10 <int-e> arseniiv: You have to underatand: How can we have our lives governed by computers if there are no strict rules to follow?
19:58:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh, you mean the people who think spell checkers are always right? both the ones with the american dictionary and the british dictionary?
19:58:28 <b_jonas> or the Hungarian dictionaries that try to tell you that Hungarian inflection is deterministic?
19:59:23 <arseniiv> b_jonas: oh, about conjunctions I can give an interesting example: да when it used as a synonym to и, is written without a comma (as и (and) does, in default case), but with a comma preceding when it’s synonymous to но (but), as does the latter
20:00:50 <b_jonas> I mean, I thought people would just figure out from just listening to native speakers inflecting nouns just how random it is and how different people inflect the same uncommon or rare or mythic rare words entirely differently,
20:02:00 <b_jonas> there's certainly some crazy logic to how inflections are formed, because it's one of the main cues how anyone can easily recognize a non-native speaker in Hungarian, even if he's been living here for ten years and has the perfect accent and a large vocabulary
20:02:32 <b_jonas> normal people's minds are just not made to imitate the crazy contrievances that native Hungarian speakers use to accept some inflected forms and reject others
20:04:08 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hehe yes. Also we are taught in schools about three noun declensions, then latter there are several (unnumbered) declension types, but the truth that there are much more than these (albeit they are encountered rarely, I presume) remains uncovered
20:05:25 <b_jonas> I think you could make a multiple choice test of just inflecting nouns in hungarian that detects native speakers
20:06:29 -!- rain2 has joined.
20:07:17 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:08:46 <HackEso> boily:“Sane Mapoleon” boily is monetizing a brotherhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He is also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Groan Man Eating Chicken, a METARologist, seriously lacking in the f-word department, a thwack doctor, a Quintopial antipodist, and a renowned Capitalist who helps keep the world kafkaesque. \ dwfo:DWFO is the Doctor Who Fan Orchestra, <http://thedwfo.org>. \ semmelweis:Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousa
20:09:56 <int-e> (my mind found "doctor" in the vicinity of "prescriptionist")
20:13:52 <arseniiv> also there is a phenomenon of orthoepy, prescriptions about word stress. Russian stress is very wild (and certainly is a problem to non-native learners) for historic reasons, and stress of many word forms is for a long time is in state of flux, but there are people saying that these words should be accented this way and no other, it’s even worse than written-language prescriptionism. They aren’t even consciously aware of what rules s
20:13:52 <arseniiv> tress does actually follow (and it isn’t taught in schools, because for what reason? natives accentuate almost all words the same way, there’s nothing to teach), and they don’t like something, psh
20:16:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yeah, it's one of those historical raisins thing where the stress rules make sense until a lot of signals that determined stress, like a four times larger vowel inventory than today, was still there in the words to give you a clue about where the stress should fall
20:16:22 <b_jonas> typical linguistic evolution
20:17:39 <b_jonas> ah yes, exceptional words like "kisebb", "lesz", "köpeny", "szőlő", which many people pronounce differently from how they're written, so the spelling has to be specifically taught in school
20:18:20 <arseniiv> hope there aren’t so many of them
20:19:39 <b_jonas> arseniiv: there didn't use to be, until people started spelling every word borrowed from English, like ímél and fájl, the English way
20:19:44 <b_jonas> and there's just more and more of those words
20:20:12 <arseniiv> oh so there’s a certain blessing in having non-latin script
20:29:58 <b_jonas> just like you said about the stack
20:32:48 <arseniiv> I have thought that 'full and 'null rhyme, poor me
20:57:17 <arseniiv> oh, um, have someone added a language to Try it online?
21:12:57 <zzo38> I had idea of this kind of parsing: The parsing table is an array of cells, each is either blank or a pair of a symbol (a terminal or nonterminal) and action (either a return value or another address). If the symbol is a terminal and it matches, do the action and advance the input; if the symbol is a nonterminal, push the current address to call stack and jump to the address of the nonterminal.
21:14:12 <zzo38> If the action is a return value, add that value to the output and then pop from call stack and do the action specified there. If the action is another address, you jump to that address. If a blank is reached, then you must back track.
21:14:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what the question is, but ask ais523
21:15:13 <zzo38> My question is how to optimize the grammar and generate an optimized parser table from it?
21:16:33 -!- derpy has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
21:16:53 -!- derpy has joined.
21:28:32 <zzo38> One thing to do is that it will be a context-free grammar and must be made proper.
21:34:50 <zzo38> Some kind of optimizations that would be possible includes that subtables can be merged if they are same or if one is a suffix of the other one (so that some possible symbols are not possible in one of the cases). Also to consider merging meaning codes of terminal symbols, to reduce the size of the parse table.
21:34:55 <rain2> zzo38: is this different to LALR parsing?
21:35:04 <rain2> it sounds very similar
21:35:12 <rain2> maybe you can just use the LALR algorithm
21:35:45 <zzo38> Is it? LALR doesn't have back tracking, isn't it?
21:41:28 <zzo38> LALR parsing tables also are working differently than what I mentioned, I think.
22:11:59 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting).
22:14:04 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:25:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:56:13 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58806&oldid=58805 * Ais523 * (+96) /* Hello world program */ switch to Esolang, not TIO, capitalisation
22:57:26 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58807&oldid=58806 * Ais523 * (+83) /* External resources */ TIO link
22:58:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58808&oldid=58785 * Ais523 * (+196) /* Truth-machine */ OK, this is correct then
23:00:56 <esowiki> [[Re:direction]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58809&oldid=58807 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Computational class */ typo fix
23:02:54 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:03:19 <ais523> zzo38: real parsers use something quite similar to your mechanism, but it has to be more complex because the way that a terminal is translated to a value often depends on context
23:04:50 <ais523> I'm not sure how you'd determine which cell of the table to use in your mechanism; after backtracking you'd have to somehow reach a different cell the next time
23:05:00 <ais523> so in that case, the choice of cell has to depend on context
23:05:25 <ais523> I think the result once you do that will end up fairly close to either LR(1), LALR, or GLR; I'm not sure if it will be exactly the same
23:15:06 <zzo38> After backtracking you try the cell immediately after the one you have used before (it may be blank, in which case you have to backtrack again).
23:17:12 <b_jonas> oh hey! I successfully summoned ais523 from wherever he's hiding behind the logs. that's so rare!@
23:19:03 <ais523> is that just recursive descent?
23:21:18 <zzo38> I suppose it is similar, although includes the possibility to undo tokens that have already been accepted.
23:23:03 <ais523> I think you can do that in recursive descent too if the language naturally has backtracking
23:23:11 <ais523> e.g. parsers in Prolog commonly use recursive descent
23:28:46 <ais523> on another subject: <http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic-2var.txt> is a TCness proof (without I/O) for Blindfolded Arithmetic on two variables total, X starting at 1, Y starting at 0; I linked it so that people can avoid spoilers if they want to
23:29:19 <ais523> although it is, probably unsurprisingly, ridiculously inefficient
23:29:35 <ais523> I was a little surprised by which language I ended up implementing
23:35:25 <b_jonas> ais523: does ghc use it to parse the contradictory fixity statements that affect where the invisible braces are earlier in the code? or is that using a sat solver?
23:35:45 <b_jonas> ais523: whoa, two variables proved? wow
23:35:54 <b_jonas> I'll definitely not look at it yet
23:36:03 <b_jonas> I want to figure out how three variables are possible.
23:36:40 <ais523> three was so much easier because you had a temporary
23:36:54 <ais523> with two you have to go the really long way round to get anywhere :-(
23:36:58 <b_jonas> ais523: well yes, that's sort of the point. with enough temporaries, it becomes trivial
23:37:15 <b_jonas> I mean, for just storing data, obviously just one bigint is more than enough
23:37:47 <b_jonas> my current idea is to use a base 4 deque that we try to access from both sides, but I'm not sure it really works with just three variables
23:42:16 <ais523> that base 4 deque example reminds me a lot of High Rise
23:42:58 <b_jonas> I mean, if four variables can emulate two stacks, then maybe one variable can emulate one stack that's not really a stack
23:44:53 <b_jonas> but it gets ugly, because you need to preserve a power of two variable around the loop an arbitrary number of times
23:45:34 <b_jonas> unless you want something limited to like 2**32 stack elements, because you could totally do that because Blindfolded can square powers of two in one operation, so surely it can generate any power of two up to 2**32 in O(32) operations
23:46:02 <b_jonas> but you wouldn't call that Turing-complete, right? it would be sufficient for me to claim the language can practically do anything, but you keep me straight about those things
23:46:13 <ais523> yes, I would call that a bounded-storage machine
23:46:26 <ais523> which is one of those computational classes which is practically very useful but theoretically not very interesting (other than the issues with defining it)
23:46:52 <b_jonas> that's what led to me thinking deeper about Consumer society (it didn't have that name yet) to figure out if it can actually emulate a RAM machine that can theoretically grow arbitrarily big,
23:47:19 <b_jonas> as opposed to just emulate one that can grow to a limit in a few consecutive up arrows from the code size
23:47:40 <b_jonas> and yes it can, but it's harder than just the up arrow construction, and that's what makes it an interesting language
23:48:22 <b_jonas> just a turing machine or just a fixed size RAM is easy, but you can put them together, which is why Consumer society is so magical that I have to document it before someone figures out what the language is from all the hints I've been dropping
23:49:09 <ais523> I got the idea that Consumer society is obviously TC but not obviously efficiently TC
23:49:39 <b_jonas> it's sort of the reverse, at least to my way of thinking
23:50:20 <b_jonas> it can obviously emulate a 32-bit memory, or even a 64-bit memory (I mean, you just double the code size or something), but the TC was a surprise to me
23:50:45 <b_jonas> it's that thing where if you make something powerful enough, it automatically becomes TC. you have to do difficult stuff to STOP it from being TC.
23:51:04 <ais523> also, seeing a partially uncapitalised proper noun bothers me, I guess this is why so many people miscapitalise brainfuck
23:51:59 <b_jonas> I don't buy the british concept of capitalizing everything
23:52:20 <b_jonas> why would real wizards write "Quidditch" with a capital? it's an ordinary proper noun. and "Apparition" too?
23:52:25 <ais523> well, "proper nouns use capital letters" is a grammar rule of English in much the same way as "plurals normally end in s" is
23:52:49 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:52:51 <b_jonas> that screams of it being narrated from an outside perspective where they're not ordinary common words, but practically HP trademarks in our worls
23:53:07 <b_jonas> and it's not like HP started that, Winnie the Pooh is full of that stuff too
23:53:24 <b_jonas> the original version has way more capitalized words than Karinthy's translation
23:54:52 <ais523> one reason to capitalise a term in English is that it's a technical term that has been introduced for a specific context, as a clue that you've redefined the word away from its normal meaning
23:55:23 <ais523> e.g. when we play Mafia, "day" refers to a 24-hour real-life period, "Day" to a simulated day within the game's internal timescale (which doesn't normally run in realtime)
23:55:32 <b_jonas> yeah, because quidditch wouldn't stand out as an obviously made up word otherwise
23:56:26 <ais523> sports tend to only get a lowercase name once they become really popular
23:56:54 <ais523> I think chess may be close to the borderline, the initial C tends to hover between uppercase and lowercase depending on who you ask
23:57:04 <b_jonas> hmm, that's a better example
23:57:23 <ais523> extreme ironing is a descriptive name, rather than an organised activity
23:57:31 <ais523> if you capitalised it I'd expect there to be a formal ruleset written down somewhere
23:58:11 <b_jonas> the truth of the matter is simply that Hungarian has totally different and weird rules for capitalization, and I'm used to them
23:58:21 <ais523> e.g. the Extreme Ironing World Championships has capital letters, unsurprisingly
23:59:07 <b_jonas> and even though some of them are really stupid, I prefer it over capitalizing every instance of "Monday" as if it wasn't a common name for the day of week concept that existed for OVER FOUR THOUSAND YEARS but got its name later
23:59:25 <b_jonas> I mean, "August" I can get behind, if the legends about a certain roman emperor are true
23:59:44 <b_jonas> he's in like the top few most successful historical figures of Europe