00:03:10 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:18:40 -!- nchambers has joined. 00:19:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:19:46 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58767&oldid=58766 * B jonas * (+8459) 00:27:20 @metar ENVA 00:27:21 ENVA 202350Z 11010KT 080V150 CAVOK 01/M05 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 14013KT 00:27:28 no drones today 00:29:12 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58768&oldid=58767 * B jonas * (+1029) 00:31:30 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58769&oldid=58768 * B jonas * (+117) 00:40:20 ais523: now let me read your TC construction for Blindfolded arithmetic 00:41:07 . o O ( shouldn't you be reading that blindfolded? ) 00:43:20 ah I see, it's not ais532's construction actually 00:43:52 [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58770&oldid=58769 * B jonas * (+17) /* External links */ 00:56:12 [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58771&oldid=53644 * Ais523 * (-143) /* External resources */ updated compiler, now handles all of printable ASCII! 01:17:51 I'll have to think about the four-register version. I think it's possible. 01:18:17 I just have to squash the state counter and the first stack into c. 01:18:21 -!- b_jonas has quit (Quit: leaving). 01:20:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yechar * New user account 01:24:26 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:35:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:14:48 -!- Essadon has quit (Quit: Qutting). 02:23:33 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3). 02:52:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 02:58:33 -!- FreeFull has quit. 02:59:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:07:52 -!- imode has joined. 03:32:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:34:23 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 04:08:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:43:20 -!- tromp has joined. 04:47:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:51:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:16:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:37:55 -!- tromp has joined. 05:42:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 05:45:40 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 05:48:58 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:22:18 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 06:22:18 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:20:01 -!- Xylochoron has joined. 07:24:35 -!- Xylochoron has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:55:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:02:10 -!- tromp has joined. 08:15:55 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:27:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:50:20 [[BuzzFizz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58772&oldid=58771 * Ais523 * (+77) /* External resources */ TIO link 09:01:23 [[Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58773&oldid=53609 * Ais523 * (+761) edit for accuracy, explaining why this doesn't work 10:07:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:18:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:32:32 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Blindfolded arithmetic]] to [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]]: caps 10:33:15 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58776&oldid=58774 * Ais523 * (+0) caps 10:33:54 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58777&oldid=58680 * Ais523 * (+28) one of my languages got added by someone else 10:34:48 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58778&oldid=58776 * Ais523 * (-29) /* Definition */ Blindfolded Arithmetic can actually /output/ negative and zero integers, but only /input/ positive integers 10:41:45 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58779&oldid=58778 * Ais523 * (-1) /* General structure of compilation */ fix mismatched tags 11:20:03 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:21:03 In the US, why did the media guys push for a longer copyright term, instead of just pushing for a fixed term after the death of the author, and then maintain Walt Disney's cryogenic chamber in a state where it's plausibly deniable that he's known to be dead? 11:23:11 ais523: I'll document the four registers construction later. It's not hard, but I have to do other stuff now. 11:23:42 Also, the extra registers are still useful, because you can put extra stacks on them, which speeds up reverse and sort operations a lot. 11:40:05 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58780&oldid=58779 * B jonas * (+611) /* Four variables */ +Spare registers 11:53:19 -!- Essadon has joined. 12:07:18 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:07:34 wob_jonas: I'm tantalizingly close to getting it done with /two/ (without I/O, obviously) 12:08:40 wob_jonas: look at this: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/18.txt 12:09:20 being able to divmod by a Mersenne prime seems like the sort of basic construct which will be useful, although I haven't found a way to get from there to TCness yet 12:09:31 ais523: I won't look yet because I don't want it spoiled. I'm trying to think about this still. I'm already sure about the four variable construction, I just haven't documented it yet, and want to give a bit more thought to it. 12:09:48 I'm sure about three-without-I/O 12:10:19 btw, at some point we're going to have to move all the Blindfolded Arithmetic proofs onto subpages, I think 12:10:32 I never did post mine (because you're meant to keep it secret until someone cracks the language) 12:10:48 ais523: on the other hand, if this was a real machine, I'd recommend its creator to get rid of all the mechanism for multiply and divide, and put in a more useful but easier to implement instruction, say v_0 = (v_1 < 0) * v_2, and 12:11:00 come to think of it, I may as well post my proof for 6 12:11:37 here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/blindfolded-arithmetic.md 12:11:51 then they can also have each instruction execute in constant time, which probably simplifies the control a bit (though probably not much because the instructions are on a rotating disk which is unpredictable anyway) 12:12:25 ais523: weren't you supposed to keep it secret until someone cracks the language OR one week passes, and the one week passed long ago? 12:12:48 yes, but if I mark it safe it'll be a winning entry, and the almost-crack that was posted is close enough that I don't want to win like that 12:13:03 disclosing my solution offsite seems like a reasonable workaround to that 12:14:07 ais523: two registers seems tricky, but I have an idea to get down to three registers, and I want to think about it before reading your spoilers 12:14:53 ais523: hmm, should I modify that solution to be entirely correct then so you can mark it as accepted? 12:15:27 I'm not sure, this is something of a grey area; I think that such an edit would be treated as equivalent to a golfing edit, thus disallowed 12:15:29 it's not hard, because his solution is similar to mine for five and four registers in general 12:15:39 you could post your own crack if it's substantially different from the existing one 12:15:53 but my solution wouldn't be substantially different 12:15:56 at least right now 12:15:59 actually, I had a second language in mind for that challenge 12:16:08 the problem is I never proved it I/O-complete (only Turing-complete) 12:16:25 I'm still using two stacks, and the details about how I store the state counter don't make much of a difference 12:16:47 in fact how I store the state counter is the main difference between the four register and five register solution 12:17:00 yes, that makes sense 12:17:46 while the fifth register helps me simplify my proof, the sixth doesn't, it only lets me write more efficient programs than is required for turing completeness 12:18:05 oh, and I also missed non-positive outputs at first, so I'll fix my description on the wiki for that 12:19:00 I already did 12:22:15 ais523: in the description, yes, but not in the compilation construction 12:22:43 ah right 12:22:58 that one needs special mention because me and the solver on golf SE both try to keep i always positive so that b = i / i; always works 12:23:29 which is convenient because at the start of the program, the other registers are zero, so we can't construct a nonzero number without i 12:24:36 this is not a problem of course, since we can do a conditional i = 1 - i then halt very quickly, but it still has to be mentioned 12:30:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:30:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:58:01 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58781&oldid=58780 * Ais523 * (+95) /* External links */ my own TCness proof 12:59:08 ais523: you can host that on the wiki 12:59:35 a proof for the wiki is definitely on topic there 12:59:38 um 12:59:43 a proof about an esolang's power 13:00:34 I know, but it's better to have it linked until someone gets around to translating it into MediaWiki syntax 13:00:51 (I've had bad experiences with automated Markdown → MediaWiki compilers) 13:01:07 ok. this one doesn't have much formatting so it should be easy. 13:21:39 -!- hogefuga has joined. 13:22:47 -!- hogefuga has left. 13:35:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:43:55 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58782&oldid=58781 * B jonas * (+5769) /* Proof of Turing-completeness */ Ais523's Turing-completeness proof 13:45:01 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:02:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:25:02 ais523: it seems that your six-register proof uses a control structure somewhat similar to mine, but you use three counters instead of two stacks, which simplifies the description 14:25:22 that is actually a good way to use six registers to get a simpler proof 14:25:46 even if it's not one I would prefer to give 14:27:23 and apparently you're using sequentially numbered states 14:35:01 yes, there was no real reason not to 14:35:19 three counters means that you can do the I/O encoding "inside" the system 14:35:29 sure, it may be more efficient than gotos all the time 14:35:31 which makes things much simpler 14:35:48 two or three or four stacks also mean that 14:35:58 then I can even do IO encoding bitwise 14:36:17 it gets a bit more complicated if I want nonpositive outputs, but not by much 14:36:39 anyway, I should go to bed really, or at least try 14:36:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 14:36:51 I'll document that part, and the four register construction, and try to think about the three registers 15:06:51 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:19:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:19:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 15:33:27 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:34:57 -!- Soni has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 16:32:14 -!- imode has joined. 16:33:29 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:36:22 -!- b_jonas has joined. 18:14:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:19:30 [[Blindfolded Arithmetic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58783&oldid=58782 * B jonas * (-7) /* Compiling individual steps */ 18:31:45 `? manowar 18:31:46 manowar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:31:47 `? samovar 18:31:48 samovar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:32:43 `? scorpan 18:32:44 scorpan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:32:47 `? sub-zero 18:32:48 sub-zero? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:34:10 `? scorpion 18:34:11 scorpion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:18:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:19:39 -!- Soni has joined. 19:19:44 `? berenstein 19:19:45 berenstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:47 `? beranstein 19:19:48 beranstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:51 `? bearenstein 19:19:52 bearenstein? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:19:57 `? berenstain 19:19:58 berenstain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:20:00 `? beranstain 19:20:02 beranstain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:20:11 -!- Soni has quit (Client Quit). 19:20:20 ``` echo wisdom/b*r*st*n* 19:20:21 wisdom/b*r*st*n* 19:22:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:05:39 `? economy 20:05:40 economy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:06:59 economy explains why the goods and services you buy are low quality and overpriced, and removes all your hope that you'll ever be able to buy high quality goods or services for cheap 20:09:40 Do you think there may come a time when microSD cards become so cheap that nobody will bother printing manuals or labels to anything, they'll just tape on a microSD card? 20:13:05 -!- Soni has joined. 20:24:18 It won't help, since then you will need a computer that can read the file, and the electricity to run the computer (it won't work during a power outage, even if you do have a suitable computer). 20:24:20 I'm not sure it'd be EU regulation compliant 20:24:27 (also, I hope not) 20:25:40 zzo38: we'll have mobile phones that can read the file. 20:26:00 perhaps it won't exactly be microSD, but some other form of digital data storage. 20:26:05 Luciole: not yet. 20:26:13 No, you might not. And even if you do the battery might run out. 20:27:00 why distribute a microSD card if you can just print a QR code that leads to a website with relevant manuals etc 20:27:03 zzo38: for those cases, the store might have some devices fixed on the wall, just like how some big supermarkets today have self-serving barcode readers connected to the shop inventory computers to tell the price of any item from a barcode 20:27:13 and then you can just scan it with your phone in the supermarket 20:27:18 kinda surprised that isn't a thing already 20:27:21 maybe it is.. 20:28:24 b_jonas: Yes, that could work. It may help if you want to read the manual before opening the box, but it should not substitute for manuals and visible price tags, I should think 20:29:14 zzo38: sure, if there needs to be information printed outside the box, that can happen too. or that can be replaced by a microSD card too. 20:29:46 of course it gets hairy when every leaf of ten pills in a pharmaeutical must have the exact type and expiry date printed on it 20:29:56 presumably it won't replace everything 20:30:00 just some of the larger manuals 20:30:14 the largest ones are already distributed on CDs, mind you 20:30:44 a CD is still cheaper than an SD card, but only by a factor of 2 or 4 20:30:51 no wait 20:30:57 more like a factor of 5 or 10 20:31:53 Not all of the information can fit on the outside of the box. Some information can be printed there, but perhaps can help to use this microSD so that you can access information that is not printed on the box because it does not fit. Although probably there should still be some manual, unless it is needing for a computer program that has the built-in manual that is suitable 20:32:00 but a CD, even a small size CD, is too large 20:36:09 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 20:50:09 `? one ring 20:50:11 One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them 21:13:24 ? ballpeen 21:13:26 ? ballpen 21:13:30 `? ballpoint pen 21:13:32 ballpoint pen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:37 `? ballpen 21:13:38 ballpen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:13:38 `? ballpeen 21:13:39 ballpeen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:35:56 `? ground water 21:35:57 ground water? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:36:07 how fine is it ground? 21:37:54 ground water is water ground to a fine powder 21:42:03 `? spring 21:42:04 `? string 21:42:06 spring? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:42:07 string? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:16:56 ais523: another question is whether Blindfolded Arithmetic is still TC without multiplication, if you allow a large enough number of registers 22:49:56 b_jonas: it seems so; division is really powerful. For example, one can multiply x by a in {1,2} using the expression (x+x)/(3-a), which covers the translations of push. 22:55:42 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:09:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:11:34 int-e: the hard part is how to do conditionals 23:32:53 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:52:42 -!- oerjan has joined.