←2018-12-17 2018-12-18 2018-12-19→ ↑2018 ↑all
00:10:10 <b_jonas> no, my hon. and learned friend fungot, I expect you to die
00:10:10 <fungot> b_jonas: it is on that that the government have, the procedure is the same.
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01:24:23 <zzo38> Now I implemented the + and - requests of Netsubscribe at least, although it isn't so useful because notifications are not yet implemented. Do you like this?
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03:10:15 <imode> I'm totally sold on combinators. Curry's work, Backus' FP, Iverson's APL and J.. they're all tied together by algebra, each language forming an algebra of programs.
03:11:24 <zzo38> Does quantum entanglement that joins stuff being extending backward in time from the point of view of both experimenters? To me it would seem like that, rather than affecting the other one "instantly", like they say it is.
03:12:01 <imode> https://www.quora.com/Does-Bohmian-mechanics-explain-entanglement
03:17:49 <zzo38> It looks like difference to what I mentioned.
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08:39:56 <amokavarshan> hi
08:40:10 <amokavarshan> need help in a program
08:42:35 <amokavarshan> need help in a program
08:59:47 <zzo38> What help in what program?
09:01:11 <amokavarshan> zzo38, i solved it before you asked but anyway thanks for asking
09:02:48 <amokavarshan> zzo38, are you there
09:03:10 <zzo38> Am I where?
09:05:28 <amokavarshan> http://dpaste.com/1P7FNJT ; why a space is need before %c in scanf to get the program work
09:06:59 <zzo38> Perhaps because of a line break after each line that you have to consume.
09:07:34 <amokavarshan> oh
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09:14:22 <amokavarshan> zzo38,
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09:47:07 <esowiki> [[Analog Synth]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (+4671) information density joke language with multi-interpreter
09:48:18 <esowiki> [[Analog Synth]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58753&oldid=58752 * Salpynx * (-5)
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12:05:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:The Waterfall Model]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58754&oldid=58751 * Chris Pressey * (+1036) /* Waterclocks over the reals */
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19:44:18 <b_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/
19:44:19 <HackEso> ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/: b_jonas
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20:11:43 <oren> https://i.redd.it/nx4xu1y9r0521.jpg
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20:42:31 <imode> are there any resources out there on building cyclic graphs from collections of trees?
20:44:09 <imode> haskell might have something to say about that.
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21:05:29 <salpynx> Based on the recent Waterfall Model language activity, I have thought up a "serious" and hopefully interesting variant stemming from the silly title variation "Your Mince may Pong" (punning on "Your Pong May Minsky", clever n-dimensional bouncing ball equivalent).
21:05:46 <salpynx> It is a biological E-Coli style bacterial simulation of the Waterfall mechanics. Instead of Waterclocks, there are n bacterial strains that have a maximum population density in their environment. Once the maximum density is reached, a strain's growth rate halts due to passive competitive pressures.
21:06:01 <salpynx> The population becomes stressed, and this triggers a specialized antibiotic metabolites ("interference competition mode") which is a cocktail of antibiotic substances that different strains have differing weaknesses to. The populations of all strains reduce by differing amounts, and then further growth can occur.
21:06:43 <salpynx> I believe this is equivalent to the Waterfall Model mechanics.
21:07:32 <oren> how would one go about generating a maze with / and \ walls such that there is a start point at the top and an end at the bottom, no points are disconnected from the start and end points, and the route from the start to the end is not obvious
21:10:41 <salpynx> Initially I conceived the "interference competition mode" to reduce the populations being triggered suddenly, but I wonder if the antibiotic substances could be released continuously and change growth rates - would that be equivalent, or does the "water top up" need to be sudden and discreet?
21:17:48 <salpynx> oren: using whatever algorithm http://www.mazegenerator.net/ uses for a square maze, and rotate by 45°? Maybe I'm missing something, but the angled walls don't change the problem. You'll just end up with a diamond shaped maze, which I think is what you are specifying?
21:29:58 <salpynx> neat resource: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm#perfect via wiki page on " Maze generation algorithm"
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22:36:15 <b_jonas> wait what?
22:36:22 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/
22:36:23 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas
22:36:39 <b_jonas> no argh
22:36:47 <b_jonas> `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html
22:36:47 <b_jonas> darn
22:36:47 <HackEso> bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html: b_jonas
22:37:52 <b_jonas> imode: building cyclic graphs from collections of trees => um, I think there was some crazy conjecture, with special cases proved, about getting complete digraphs as disjoint unions of several trees or stuff like that
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22:38:05 <b_jonas> maybe it wasn't just tournaments, I'm not sure
22:38:14 <b_jonas> but definitely involving disjoint union of trees
22:38:46 <b_jonas> imode: is that the kind of thing you're looking for?
22:39:51 <imode> yes!
22:40:08 <imode> I'll log that down and look it up, thank you! :D
22:40:08 <b_jonas> salpynx: but there's already an esoteric language with "Your Minsky" in its name. do you really want another one?
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22:41:05 <b_jonas> imode: hmm, I'll have to look up the exact reference too then. I think I heared it on a conference, so I'll have to look it up in a conference volume that I have left in my parens' house.
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22:41:45 <b_jonas> but then you'll probably find some references to such things elsewhere
22:42:37 <imode> anything works, at your leisure of course. :)
22:42:40 <b_jonas> do you think the Bobadventures guy will be able to keep a regular update schedule for this short adventure by the way?
22:43:17 <b_jonas> imode: yeah, I'll have to write a note to myself, I'll be in their apartment in a few days but I'll probably forget to grab that conference volume.
22:43:39 <imode> that's alright, you've at least provided me some search terms. :)
22:44:17 <b_jonas> that reminds me, I shouldn't forget to take the exercise ball pump to the office tomorrow. I'll put it in my backpack now.
22:46:23 <b_jonas> salpynx: that's the random diagonals kind of maze. there's a more interesting maze that I have ported to an IRC-based interpreter that would print more than one line at some point.
22:47:36 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 this maze generator. I was thinking about that, um, recently, because if I ever make that esolang that I wanted, then I should port this maze generator to it as the main example program
22:48:10 <b_jonas> it's a nice full example, because it requires you to do nontrivial random accesses to an array, and nontrivial arithmetic
22:48:21 <b_jonas> well, multiple arrays, but still
22:48:52 <b_jonas> I mean Consumer society by "that esolang that I wanted"
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22:50:11 <b_jonas> oh hello ais523
22:51:53 <ais523> hi
22:53:48 <b_jonas> apparently salpynx mentioned something with Your ... Minsky, but I don't really understand what it has to do with Minsky
22:54:21 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a change-of-viewpoint of The Waterfall Model
22:57:38 <b_jonas> ah I see! so he wants a reinterpretation of Waterfall Model
22:57:43 <b_jonas> makes sense
22:59:14 <b_jonas> as in, a reflavoring of the same abstract model
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23:14:22 <salpynx> b_jonas: Yes, I have been following the Waterfall Model chat on the talk page of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Your_Pong_May_Minsky and playing with the Waterfall Model interactive tutorial recently, and wrote an interpreter for it, so I am steeped in Waterfall Model ATM. Forgot that maybe not everyone is following the same discussions :)
23:17:05 <salpynx> ais523: Thank you for that language, it is really neat and I think you have hit your goal of making it easy to implement in awkward langauges. I had been struggling for a while to proove universality of my language ΙΧΘΥΣ, and was able to come up with a conversion relatively easily
23:17:56 <ais523> the more I study The Waterall Model the more fundamental it seems, somehow
23:18:04 <salpynx> The interactive tutorial + documentation is very nice too, and fun to play with.
23:18:08 <ais523> I've been using it for TCness proofs too
23:18:32 <ais523> I need to write more of the tutorial at some point; I got held up by my own lack of skill (I can't teach something I don't know myself)
23:18:49 <oren> lol "Improvement: Move the left context to be displayed on the left"
23:19:30 <oren> "current behaviour: left context is displayed ot the right"
23:19:39 <imode> ais523: how does it seem fundamental?
23:20:21 <ais523> imode: most systems at a similar level of abstraction compile into it easily
23:20:31 <ais523> that is, low-powered counter machines
23:20:46 <salpynx> I had been working on (again starting from a silly joke) analog computing versions of esolangs, and had a version of `+` and '+-` outputting voltages to an oscilloscope... I had a capacitor discharging and realised if I could trigger tops ups to other caps, that would be Waterfall Model
23:21:32 <salpynx> I need to find some existing oscillator circuits to borrow some ideas from, but I think it should be possible, and that give you the continuous model
23:22:42 <imode> ais523: what's the semantics of the model? I can't parse the wiki page so well right now.
23:23:14 <ais523> imode: you have X counters, they all decrease at a steady rate (discretely or continuously), when one of them hits 0 then every counter is increased by a specified amount depending on which counter hit 0
23:23:25 <salpynx> imode: following the external resource link gives a good description
23:23:38 <ais523> so a program could say, say, "when counter 1 hits 0, increase it by 3, and counter 2 by 5"
23:24:22 <imode> wow, that solves the problem of checking a particular counter for zero. you have it built-in..
23:24:41 <b_jonas> salpynx: "wasy to implement in awkward languages" => but you don't mean that you'll actually want to implement bignum precision in bacterial colonies, that's just flavor, right?
23:24:46 <imode> so 1 -> 1:3, 2:5, etc.
23:25:02 <ais523> right
23:25:19 <ais523> programs are typically written as a matrix, the cell at (x, y) shows how much counter y increases when counter x zeroes
23:25:33 <imode> that is.. wild.
23:25:58 <ais523> (there's also a column 0 showing the initial values, and a row 0 to make it easier to parse)
23:26:19 <b_jonas> ais523: right, low-powered counter machines with no size limit on their integers. it won't help much with machines where I want to manipulate symbols and don't want an exponential slowdown
23:26:42 <salpynx> I still find it difficult to process how it is Turing complete, but it does seem surprisingly powerful.
23:26:57 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simpler_Subskin?
23:27:03 <b_jonas> for machines where you have to use counters, and don't mind one level of exponential slowdown, there I can understand that you want to use it for turing completeness proof
23:27:14 <imode> iirc any 2 counter machine is TC if you allow unbounded space for integers.
23:27:19 <imode> or really natural numbers.
23:27:20 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, have you given some reasonable upper bound for how many clocks you need for TC?
23:27:28 <ais523> imode: not quite, you need to handle the control flow somehow
23:27:37 <ais523> 2 counters + arbitrary control flow is TC, the control flow can sometimes be complex though
23:27:38 <b_jonas> with integer numbers only in the program
23:27:39 <imode> ais523: true, but that can be a single operation.
23:27:57 <ais523> b_jonas: I've spent weeks trying to figure it out, including recently
23:28:07 <salpynx> regarding my biological simulation idea, I'd love it if there were bacteria that behave that way (I'm no biologist, but I tried to use real bacterial concepts), that would make a possibly real biological computer
23:28:11 <ais523> my current guess is somewhere in the 9/10 range
23:28:22 <b_jonas> imode: for Minsky machines, 2 counter is enough for double-exponential slowdown, 3 counters for single-exponential slowdown turing completeness, and you don't get better than that with a larger number of counters
23:28:31 <b_jonas> well, at least not better than exponential
23:28:38 <b_jonas> but Waterfall model is much more restricted
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23:28:50 <imode> I'll stick with combinatory logic lol.
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23:29:04 <b_jonas> 9..10 range? I'll be interested to see that
23:29:27 <b_jonas> yeah, 9/10 if you don't mind using the slash there... I'd prefer the slash only for datetime ranges
23:29:31 <b_jonas> it's confusing with numbers
23:29:53 <ais523> for some reason I was thinking about it as "9 or 10" not "9 to 10"
23:30:02 <b_jonas> oh
23:30:04 <b_jonas> still
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23:30:36 <salpynx> b_jonas: Well, I don't think I'll be playing with real bacteria just yet, but I found this pre-existing tool https://github.com/HaseloffLab/CellModeller that does most of the hard simulation work for cell behaviour. I only thought this up yesterday, so give me some time :)
23:30:43 <b_jonas> anyway, 10 counters would be amazing, I'll be interested to hear about what you getr
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23:30:56 <b_jonas> hmm wait
23:31:00 <imode> computing is beautiful.
23:31:28 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean that you're hoping for a TC *proof* for something like 10 counters, or only that the truth is around 10 counters but we can't hope to prove that?
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23:31:37 <b_jonas> the latter is more believable to me
23:31:48 <ais523> b_jonas: explicit construction
23:32:02 <ais523> I think the truth is probably actually in the 5 to 7 range but that I don't expect to optimise things that far
23:32:31 <salpynx> ais523: I think you have hit on something pretty special with it, I'm kinda new to esolangs but it jumped out as something pretty accessible yet bizarrely powerful
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23:33:27 <b_jonas> ais523: good
23:33:33 <b_jonas> I'll definitely be interested
23:33:49 <ais523> are the logs down? I've been trying to figure out what if anything I missed during connection trouble, but I can't load the logs either
23:34:05 <b_jonas> logs were up today, let me check
23:34:26 <b_jonas> and yes, examining a small but powerful model is interesting, that's also why I should document Consumer Society
23:34:52 <b_jonas> while it's much more powerful and harder to implement than anything using counter machines, it still seems minimalistic but powerful in some sense
23:36:00 <b_jonas> in that it can efficiently simulate not only turing machines, but also turing machines with only polynomial slowdown, and more, I think I can prove it can simulate even pointer machines or arbitrary indexed RAM accesses with slowdown of a factor that's a polynomial of the length of address accessed
23:36:24 <b_jonas> but it's minimalistic in the sense that it has a version that has as few features as you can hope, if you remove anything from that version, it will no longer be able to do anything
23:36:46 <b_jonas> and that version has very few primitves
23:37:15 <b_jonas> basically just two, one for reading and one for writing, but obviously you can count these things differently
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23:38:10 <imode> cheers. o/
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23:38:41 <b_jonas> although... hmm, I wonder
23:38:46 <oerjan> eep
23:39:03 <oerjan> `quote
23:39:03 <HackEso> 1148) <Taneb> Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting
23:39:49 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, logs on https://esolangs.org/logs seem to be down now
23:40:05 <b_jonas> I get an 504 Gateway Time-out
23:40:28 <oerjan> . o O ( why is b_jonas pinging ais523 instead of me )
23:40:52 <oerjan> i guess he may have been talking about the same thing. _i may never know_
23:41:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: ais523 asked if the logs were down
23:41:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: you would know that if you could access the logs
23:41:59 <oerjan> i guess i didn't ask, i just tested all the other fizzie bots
23:42:07 <oerjan> indeed
23:42:21 <b_jonas> `echo Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:22 <HackEso> Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:26 <b_jonas> that bot is up
23:42:38 <b_jonas> [ 'Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc='
23:42:38 <j-bot> b_jonas: Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=
23:42:42 <oerjan> hm tunes is no longer in my url history
23:42:42 <b_jonas> that bot is also up
23:43:07 <b_jonas> I think the other logs don't have fresh input these days
23:43:08 <ais523> oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/18.12.18
23:43:10 <b_jonas> they're only older logs
23:43:17 <ais523> clog is still here, and still logging, although it loses connection sometimes
23:43:29 <b_jonas> wtf
23:43:37 <ais523> hi clog btw
23:43:38 <b_jonas> yeah, you're right, that is running
23:44:00 <oerjan> ais523: i've been gone for more days than that.
23:44:13 <ais523> oerjan: you can get to the others via URL editing
23:44:17 <ais523> or just removing the date at the end for a list
23:45:49 <b_jonas> hmm, there's actually an even more serious restriction of Consumer society possible that I believe is still TC, and I'll have to think about whether that one also allows to simulate RAM machines efficiently
23:46:07 <b_jonas> I have been thinking of other similar restrictions, but not that particular one, so I'm not sure if it works
23:46:13 <oerjan> ais523: i started with the latter
23:46:21 <b_jonas> I'll have to add that to my TODO
23:46:28 <ais523> b_jonas: did you miss my comment earlier about Simpler Subskin, btw?
23:46:46 <b_jonas> ais523: no, but I haven't read what that does yet
23:46:56 <b_jonas> ah, that's very new
23:47:02 <b_jonas> last week
23:47:10 <ais523> it was designed "for" you, in the sense that it is (or should be) a counter machine with only a linear slowdown over Turing machines (i.e. if a Turing machine runs a program in time t, Simpler Subskin takes time kt for some k)
23:49:00 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, I know something similar to that. I have an OISC where the basic operation is a double indirection subtract, and program and data is in the same array, so the loop is like m[2] = (m[m[m[0]++]]-=m[m[m[0]++]]) < 0; or something close to that
23:49:07 <ais523> it's likely you can compile it into The Waterfall Model in a way that optimising implementations can decompile, too; I'd expect to see the results running with a log-slowdown compared to Turing machines on ratiofall (you'd need a "sparse bigint" to get log-log slowdown, which I think is the best you can do on a practical computer)
23:49:42 <b_jonas> so m[0] is the IP and m[2] is the comparison indicator that has a value of 0 or 1, and you can use that to conditional jump in the next statement by using a 0 address
23:50:20 <ais523> b_jonas: right, there are lots of OISCs
23:50:25 <b_jonas> the same thing works without the double indirection, like m[2] = (m[m[0]++]-=m[m[0]++]) < 0; but then you need self-modifying code
23:50:31 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure which version I had, let me check
23:50:32 <ais523> this was my aim to go as simple as possible (i.e. no memory-mapping, no indirection)
23:51:19 <b_jonas> the only problem is that I only wrote one program for it, and that one program sucks because it depends on 32-bit word size, so subtraction is modulo 2**32, and that dependence is totally unncessary, I should have written the program better
23:51:44 <b_jonas> let me check what rule I used exactly, it might not be exactly the same, just something simlar
23:52:24 <b_jonas> it's possible that I had the souce before the destination in the memory, not after
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23:56:09 <b_jonas> the loop says, in perl for(my@a=(0,42,0,0,...);$a[1];$a[3]&&print chr$a[4]){$a[2]=-(($a[$a[$a[1]++]]-=$a[$a[$a[1]++]])<0)}
23:56:46 <ais523> that $a[$a[$a[1]++]] bit is pretty reminiscent of Three Star Programmer
23:56:49 <ais523> but the brackets aren't quite in the right place
23:57:18 <b_jonas> so actually IP is in cell 1, and the comparison indicator has values 0 and -1, probably because there's a subtraction involved somewhere
23:57:21 <b_jonas> hmm
23:57:31 <b_jonas> and the comparison indicator is in cell 2
23:57:49 <b_jonas> darn, don't I have the assembler sourcecode for this program somewhere? let me check my archives
23:57:55 <b_jonas> https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=483243 by the way
23:58:00 <b_jonas> I want to figure out how conditionals work
23:58:50 <fizzie> I wrote "ctx->ctx->ctx" the other day.
23:58:57 <fizzie> It's just such a good name for any sort of context.
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