< 1545091810 397650 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-170.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, my hon. and learned friend fungot, I expect you to die < 1545091810 583957 :fungot!~fungot@2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::2 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it is on that that the government have, the procedure is the same. < 1545092317 400259 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1545092364 961344 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545093329 677166 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545093851 574706 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1545093890 787003 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545093943 977231 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-13-170.catv.broadband.hu QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1545095219 207749 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545096263 846452 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I implemented the + and - requests of Netsubscribe at least, although it isn't so useful because notifications are not yet implemented. Do you like this? < 1545096576 421570 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545096930 446606 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1545098268 183590 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545098692 687340 :user24!~user24@p200300ECD3C69100616CC2B332DBAB75.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1545098805 353997 :user24!~user24@p200300ECD3C69100616CC2B332DBAB75.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Client Quit < 1545099867 435245 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1545100507 787038 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: sprocklem < 1545100554 658311 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545100879 160932 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545101490 804108 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1545101540 658623 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545101639 659089 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@2601:602:8500:d0d1:f1a8:91f1:bd07:8de5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545102615 193613 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm totally sold on combinators. Curry's work, Backus' FP, Iverson's APL and J.. they're all tied together by algebra, each language forming an algebra of programs. < 1545102684 638320 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does quantum entanglement that joins stuff being extending backward in time from the point of view of both experimenters? To me it would seem like that, rather than affecting the other one "instantly", like they say it is. < 1545102721 436378 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.quora.com/Does-Bohmian-mechanics-explain-entanglement < 1545103069 195844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like difference to what I mentioned. < 1545103616 297885 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qluepmahkzdrfrxa QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1545103781 672418 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545103847 691923 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545106641 48790 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-46-222-150.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1545109801 682300 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1545110727 424325 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545110803 393866 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1545110824 507520 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545111235 718685 :doesthiswork!~Adium@131.191.115.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545113476 478933 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545115056 12004 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Quit: Hugs~ <3 < 1545115187 215827 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric < 1545115657 270661 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545117572 802706 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545120478 556813 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1545120493 254938 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545120720 183670 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545122370 20530 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545122396 813747 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1545122410 335887 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need help in a program < 1545122555 663444 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need help in a program < 1545123587 703812 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What help in what program? < 1545123671 829488 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, i solved it before you asked but anyway thanks for asking < 1545123768 72184 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, are you there < 1545123790 604590 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I where? < 1545123928 618309 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dpaste.com/1P7FNJT ; why a space is need before %c in scanf to get the program work < 1545124019 320118 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps because of a line break after each line that you have to consume. < 1545124054 407790 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1545124454 774049 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545124462 875300 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, < 1545125716 759786 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1545126378 252410 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@77.79.143.174.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric > 1545126427 325360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Analog Synth14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58752 5* 03Salpynx 5* (+4671) 10information density joke language with multi-interpreter > 1545126498 707265 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Analog Synth14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58753&oldid=58752 5* 03Salpynx 5* (-5) 10 < 1545126782 438445 :amokavarshan!~amokavars@106.201.188.179 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1545127275 685719 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1545127311 952816 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545127995 871476 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1545128010 487498 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1545128989 230904 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1545130107 144442 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545130402 749342 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545132301 166909 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545134230 797727 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds > 1545134730 192352 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:The Waterfall Model14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58754&oldid=58751 5* 03Chris Pressey 5* (+1036) 10/* Waterclocks over the reals */ < 1545138125 179367 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1545143238 717123 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1545143931 271952 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oajlxsuqhkziigpy JOIN :#esoteric < 1545144611 316744 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed JOIN :#esoteric < 1545145432 772647 :Rudolph!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1545147061 713754 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545147072 450322 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545152312 875824 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oajlxsuqhkziigpy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1545162209 198 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1545162258 847785 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/ < 1545162259 704189 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2711313/look-out-below/: b_jonas < 1545162770 309968 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1545163903 111043 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://i.redd.it/nx4xu1y9r0521.jpg < 1545165078 885907 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1545165751 16428 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any resources out there on building cyclic graphs from collections of trees? < 1545165849 951169 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell might have something to say about that. < 1545166967 125906 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545167129 616924 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on the recent Waterfall Model language activity, I have thought up a "serious" and hopefully interesting variant stemming from the silly title variation "Your Mince may Pong" (punning on "Your Pong May Minsky", clever n-dimensional bouncing ball equivalent). < 1545167146 600356 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a biological E-Coli style bacterial simulation of the Waterfall mechanics. Instead of Waterclocks, there are n bacterial strains that have a maximum population density in their environment. Once the maximum density is reached, a strain's growth rate halts due to passive competitive pressures. < 1545167161 795590 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The population becomes stressed, and this triggers a specialized antibiotic metabolites ("interference competition mode") which is a cocktail of antibiotic substances that different strains have differing weaknesses to. The populations of all strains reduce by differing amounts, and then further growth can occur. < 1545167203 273309 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe this is equivalent to the Waterfall Model mechanics. < 1545167252 976282 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would one go about generating a maze with / and \ walls such that there is a start point at the top and an end at the bottom, no points are disconnected from the start and end points, and the route from the start to the end is not obvious < 1545167441 986706 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initially I conceived the "interference competition mode" to reduce the populations being triggered suddenly, but I wonder if the antibiotic substances could be released continuously and change growth rates - would that be equivalent, or does the "water top up" need to be sudden and discreet? < 1545167868 194670 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: using whatever algorithm http://www.mazegenerator.net/ uses for a square maze, and rotate by 45°? Maybe I'm missing something, but the angled walls don't change the problem. You'll just end up with a diamond shaped maze, which I think is what you are specifying? < 1545168598 96727 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat resource: http://www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/algrithm.htm#perfect via wiki page on " Maze generation algorithm" < 1545168861 423642 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1545170668 687740 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1545171571 641520 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1545172072 698672 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: brb < 1545172256 848952 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545172443 833598 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1545172575 80840 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1545172582 340265 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/ < 1545172583 7992 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/: b_jonas < 1545172599 9361 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no argh < 1545172607 106140 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html < 1545172607 768251 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1545172607 882676 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20181218.html: b_jonas < 1545172672 942562 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: building cyclic graphs from collections of trees => um, I think there was some crazy conjecture, with special cases proved, about getting complete digraphs as disjoint unions of several trees or stuff like that < 1545172678 877345 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A4B8E1.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1545172685 364009 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it wasn't just tournaments, I'm not sure < 1545172694 989517 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but definitely involving disjoint union of trees < 1545172726 533518 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: is that the kind of thing you're looking for? < 1545172791 669902 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1545172808 262910 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll log that down and look it up, thank you! :D < 1545172808 643685 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: but there's already an esoteric language with "Your Minsky" in its name. do you really want another one? < 1545172831 980489 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1545172865 33036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: hmm, I'll have to look up the exact reference too then. I think I heared it on a conference, so I'll have to look it up in a conference volume that I have left in my parens' house. < 1545172884 732136 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed PART :#esoteric < 1545172905 483227 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you'll probably find some references to such things elsewhere < 1545172957 76679 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything works, at your leisure of course. :) < 1545172960 804211 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think the Bobadventures guy will be able to keep a regular update schedule for this short adventure by the way? < 1545172997 663414 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: yeah, I'll have to write a note to myself, I'll be in their apartment in a few days but I'll probably forget to grab that conference volume. < 1545173019 541962 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's alright, you've at least provided me some search terms. :) < 1545173057 853269 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, I shouldn't forget to take the exercise ball pump to the office tomorrow. I'll put it in my backpack now. < 1545173183 300791 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: that's the random diagonals kind of maze. there's a more interesting maze that I have ported to an IRC-based interpreter that would print more than one line at some point. < 1545173256 776641 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 this maze generator. I was thinking about that, um, recently, because if I ever make that esolang that I wanted, then I should port this maze generator to it as the main example program < 1545173290 156568 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nice full example, because it requires you to do nontrivial random accesses to an array, and nontrivial arithmetic < 1545173301 463887 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, multiple arrays, but still < 1545173332 656531 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean Consumer society by "that esolang that I wanted" < 1545173368 255652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545173411 390085 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hello ais523 < 1545173513 30063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1545173628 130610 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently salpynx mentioned something with Your ... Minsky, but I don't really understand what it has to do with Minsky < 1545173661 708279 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: it's a change-of-viewpoint of The Waterfall Model < 1545173858 733690 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see! so he wants a reinterpretation of Waterfall Model < 1545173863 449776 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1545173954 832389 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a reflavoring of the same abstract model < 1545174361 477411 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT : < 1545174669 137265 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545174862 288258 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Yes, I have been following the Waterfall Model chat on the talk page of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Your_Pong_May_Minsky and playing with the Waterfall Model interactive tutorial recently, and wrote an interpreter for it, so I am steeped in Waterfall Model ATM. Forgot that maybe not everyone is following the same discussions :) < 1545175025 337903 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Thank you for that language, it is really neat and I think you have hit your goal of making it easy to implement in awkward langauges. I had been struggling for a while to proove universality of my language ΙΧΘΥΣ, and was able to come up with a conversion relatively easily < 1545175076 142433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more I study The Waterall Model the more fundamental it seems, somehow < 1545175084 168673 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interactive tutorial + documentation is very nice too, and fun to play with. < 1545175088 664611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been using it for TCness proofs too < 1545175112 262911 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to write more of the tutorial at some point; I got held up by my own lack of skill (I can't teach something I don't know myself) < 1545175129 273689 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol "Improvement: Move the left context to be displayed on the left" < 1545175170 369835 :oren!~oren@ec2-18-212-11-99.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"current behaviour: left context is displayed ot the right" < 1545175179 573900 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does it seem fundamental? < 1545175221 255371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: most systems at a similar level of abstraction compile into it easily < 1545175231 505076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, low-powered counter machines < 1545175246 362538 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had been working on (again starting from a silly joke) analog computing versions of esolangs, and had a version of `+` and '+-` outputting voltages to an oscilloscope... I had a capacitor discharging and realised if I could trigger tops ups to other caps, that would be Waterfall Model < 1545175292 588304 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to find some existing oscillator circuits to borrow some ideas from, but I think it should be possible, and that give you the continuous model < 1545175362 880985 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the semantics of the model? I can't parse the wiki page so well right now. < 1545175394 361172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: you have X counters, they all decrease at a steady rate (discretely or continuously), when one of them hits 0 then every counter is increased by a specified amount depending on which counter hit 0 < 1545175405 621080 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: following the external resource link gives a good description < 1545175418 752404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a program could say, say, "when counter 1 hits 0, increase it by 3, and counter 2 by 5" < 1545175462 537141 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that solves the problem of checking a particular counter for zero. you have it built-in.. < 1545175481 17995 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :salpynx: "wasy to implement in awkward languages" => but you don't mean that you'll actually want to implement bignum precision in bacterial colonies, that's just flavor, right? < 1545175486 117464 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1 -> 1:3, 2:5, etc. < 1545175502 491706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1545175519 336102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs are typically written as a matrix, the cell at (x, y) shows how much counter y increases when counter x zeroes < 1545175533 343573 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is.. wild. < 1545175558 401942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's also a column 0 showing the initial values, and a row 0 to make it easier to parse) < 1545175579 215514 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, low-powered counter machines with no size limit on their integers. it won't help much with machines where I want to manipulate symbols and don't want an exponential slowdown < 1545175602 109687 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still find it difficult to process how it is Turing complete, but it does seem surprisingly powerful. < 1545175617 451765 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: have you seen https://esolangs.org/wiki/Simpler_Subskin? < 1545175623 393953 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for machines where you have to use counters, and don't mind one level of exponential slowdown, there I can understand that you want to use it for turing completeness proof < 1545175634 392176 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc any 2 counter machine is TC if you allow unbounded space for integers. < 1545175639 923749 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really natural numbers. < 1545175640 966910 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, have you given some reasonable upper bound for how many clocks you need for TC? < 1545175648 91697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: not quite, you need to handle the control flow somehow < 1545175657 333230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 counters + arbitrary control flow is TC, the control flow can sometimes be complex though < 1545175658 127052 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with integer numbers only in the program < 1545175659 714896 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true, but that can be a single operation. < 1545175677 87130 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I've spent weeks trying to figure it out, including recently < 1545175687 624722 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :regarding my biological simulation idea, I'd love it if there were bacteria that behave that way (I'm no biologist, but I tried to use real bacterial concepts), that would make a possibly real biological computer < 1545175691 395839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current guess is somewhere in the 9/10 range < 1545175702 764117 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: for Minsky machines, 2 counter is enough for double-exponential slowdown, 3 counters for single-exponential slowdown turing completeness, and you don't get better than that with a larger number of counters < 1545175711 763760 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least not better than exponential < 1545175718 655632 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Waterfall model is much more restricted < 1545175724 966122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1545175730 679383 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stick with combinatory logic lol. < 1545175737 491887 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1545175744 124977 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :9..10 range? I'll be interested to see that < 1545175767 730060 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, 9/10 if you don't mind using the slash there... I'd prefer the slash only for datetime ranges < 1545175771 961028 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's confusing with numbers < 1545175793 97411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I was thinking about it as "9 or 10" not "9 to 10" < 1545175802 156732 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1545175804 236362 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1545175823 317810 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: sprocklem < 1545175836 675406 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Well, I don't think I'll be playing with real bacteria just yet, but I found this pre-existing tool https://github.com/HaseloffLab/CellModeller that does most of the hard simulation work for cell behaviour. I only thought this up yesterday, so give me some time :) < 1545175843 631696 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, 10 counters would be amazing, I'll be interested to hear about what you getr < 1545175850 677829 :sprocklem!~m@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545175856 100036 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1545175860 51299 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :computing is beautiful. < 1545175888 862975 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you mean that you're hoping for a TC *proof* for something like 10 counters, or only that the truth is around 10 counters but we can't hope to prove that? < 1545175895 298366 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhvgizbcnawtrybw JOIN :#esoteric < 1545175897 341875 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is more believable to me < 1545175908 337992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: explicit construction < 1545175922 648421 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the truth is probably actually in the 5 to 7 range but that I don't expect to optimise things that far < 1545175951 339201 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think you have hit on something pretty special with it, I'm kinda new to esolangs but it jumped out as something pretty accessible yet bizarrely powerful < 1545175989 356190 :sprocklem!~m@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Client Quit < 1545176005 461101 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1545176007 35718 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: good < 1545176013 899500 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll definitely be interested < 1545176029 976307 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are the logs down? I've been trying to figure out what if anything I missed during connection trouble, but I can't load the logs either < 1545176045 244663 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :logs were up today, let me check < 1545176066 37381 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, examining a small but powerful model is interesting, that's also why I should document Consumer Society < 1545176092 86435 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :while it's much more powerful and harder to implement than anything using counter machines, it still seems minimalistic but powerful in some sense < 1545176160 623834 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it can efficiently simulate not only turing machines, but also turing machines with only polynomial slowdown, and more, I think I can prove it can simulate even pointer machines or arbitrary indexed RAM accesses with slowdown of a factor that's a polynomial of the length of address accessed < 1545176184 80267 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's minimalistic in the sense that it has a version that has as few features as you can hope, if you remove anything from that version, it will no longer be able to do anything < 1545176206 776847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that version has very few primitves < 1545176235 4432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just two, one for reading and one for writing, but obviously you can count these things differently < 1545176249 970096 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1545176290 677021 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheers. o/ < 1545176291 690235 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.3 < 1545176321 292333 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... hmm, I wonder < 1545176326 842574 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eep < 1545176343 131611 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1545176343 816701 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1148) Note to self: if a recipe says "serves 4", I am not physically able to eat it all in one sitting < 1545176389 111742 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, logs on https://esolangs.org/logs seem to be down now < 1545176405 519981 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get an 504 Gateway Time-out < 1545176428 55931 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( why is b_jonas pinging ais523 instead of me ) < 1545176452 52430 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess he may have been talking about the same thing. _i may never know_ < 1545176496 78073 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ais523 asked if the logs were down < 1545176519 280466 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you would know that if you could access the logs < 1545176519 882775 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i didn't ask, i just tested all the other fizzie bots < 1545176527 125189 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1545176541 532201 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= < 1545176542 279543 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= < 1545176546 812455 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bot is up < 1545176558 126242 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 'Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc=' < 1545176558 842636 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Iv+WJ5un3/uqrCP9LkxjNgD7dWj3kVUhlPoeBtr8MUc= < 1545176562 732555 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm tunes is no longer in my url history < 1545176562 827051 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bot is also up < 1545176587 125806 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the other logs don't have fresh input these days < 1545176588 582418 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/18.12.18 < 1545176590 509145 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're only older logs < 1545176597 936692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clog is still here, and still logging, although it loses connection sometimes < 1545176609 85212 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1545176617 465018 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi clog btw < 1545176618 647206 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you're right, that is running < 1545176640 729781 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i've been gone for more days than that. < 1545176653 67329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you can get to the others via URL editing < 1545176657 908335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just removing the date at the end for a list < 1545176749 836711 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there's actually an even more serious restriction of Consumer society possible that I believe is still TC, and I'll have to think about whether that one also allows to simulate RAM machines efficiently < 1545176767 442476 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been thinking of other similar restrictions, but not that particular one, so I'm not sure if it works < 1545176773 675667 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i started with the latter < 1545176781 420433 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to add that to my TODO < 1545176788 140150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: did you miss my comment earlier about Simpler Subskin, btw? < 1545176806 300985 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, but I haven't read what that does yet < 1545176816 629474 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's very new < 1545176822 732743 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week < 1545176830 974702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was designed "for" you, in the sense that it is (or should be) a counter machine with only a linear slowdown over Turing machines (i.e. if a Turing machine runs a program in time t, Simpler Subskin takes time kt for some k) < 1545176940 945345 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, I know something similar to that. I have an OISC where the basic operation is a double indirection subtract, and program and data is in the same array, so the loop is like m[2] = (m[m[m[0]++]]-=m[m[m[0]++]]) < 0; or something close to that < 1545176947 972092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's likely you can compile it into The Waterfall Model in a way that optimising implementations can decompile, too; I'd expect to see the results running with a log-slowdown compared to Turing machines on ratiofall (you'd need a "sparse bigint" to get log-log slowdown, which I think is the best you can do on a practical computer) < 1545176982 771383 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so m[0] is the IP and m[2] is the comparison indicator that has a value of 0 or 1, and you can use that to conditional jump in the next statement by using a 0 address < 1545177020 656721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: right, there are lots of OISCs < 1545177025 849506 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same thing works without the double indirection, like m[2] = (m[m[0]++]-=m[m[0]++]) < 0; but then you need self-modifying code < 1545177031 395703 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure which version I had, let me check < 1545177032 979789 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was my aim to go as simple as possible (i.e. no memory-mapping, no indirection) < 1545177079 550665 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is that I only wrote one program for it, and that one program sucks because it depends on 32-bit word size, so subtraction is modulo 2**32, and that dependence is totally unncessary, I should have written the program better < 1545177104 257432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check what rule I used exactly, it might not be exactly the same, just something simlar < 1545177144 755142 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible that I had the souce before the destination in the memory, not after < 1545177325 190739 :salpynx!794954f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.73.84.248 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1545177369 378861 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the loop says, in perl for(my@a=(0,42,0,0,...);$a[1];$a[3]&&print chr$a[4]){$a[2]=-(($a[$a[$a[1]++]]-=$a[$a[$a[1]++]])<0)} < 1545177406 294895 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that $a[$a[$a[1]++]] bit is pretty reminiscent of Three Star Programmer < 1545177409 602205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the brackets aren't quite in the right place < 1545177438 465341 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually IP is in cell 1, and the comparison indicator has values 0 and -1, probably because there's a subtraction involved somewhere < 1545177441 479355 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1545177451 296750 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the comparison indicator is in cell 2 < 1545177469 371847 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, don't I have the assembler sourcecode for this program somewhere? let me check my archives < 1545177475 309050 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=483243 by the way < 1545177480 975432 :b_jonas!~x@catv-176-63-14-76.catv.broadband.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to figure out how conditionals work < 1545177530 667237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote "ctx->ctx->ctx" the other day. < 1545177537 950926 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just such a good name for any sort of context.