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00:22:11 <wob_jonas> https://medium.com/vantage/type-in-your-hand-512a5a6cbb98 Wow. Awesome printing museums, and you can watch the pictures and descriptions on the web without having to breathe in any of the lead fumes.
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00:47:20 <ski> shachaf : one-shot (affine) continuation
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01:40:19 <esowiki> [[DoEverything();]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58415&oldid=58414 * Cortex * (-163)
01:41:39 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58416&oldid=58205 * Cortex * (+73)
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01:51:42 <ski> <oerjan> @ask shachaf regarding your { if(...); ... } stuff, have i reminded you about Raph Levien's continuation language IO yet?
01:51:47 <lambdabot> Raphael L. Levien's language with continuations as fundamental structure, described in his paper "Io: a new programming notation" (1989-09-10) at <http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=70931.70934> and
01:51:47 <lambdabot> in chapter 2 of Raphael A. Finkel's book `APLD', implementations `Amalthea',`Ganymede' - (perhaps you were looking for `@wiki Introduction to IO' ?)
01:51:55 <ski> @where APLD
01:51:55 <lambdabot> "Advanced Programming Language Design" by Raphael Finkel in 1996 at <http://www.nondot.org/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/>
01:56:37 <ski> (well seems that last link is broken now, try <https://web.archive.org/web/20150522052725/http://www.nondot.org:80/sabre/Mirrored/AdvProgLangDesign/>. see chapter 2, section 3 for continuations in Io. also section 4 (power loops) is interesting)
01:56:41 <ski> @where Amalthea
01:56:41 <lambdabot> Implementation made by Martin Sandin of the (continuation-based) `Io' language at <http://web.archive.org/web/20091106041222/http://www.guldheden.com/~sandin/amalthea.html>
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01:56:51 <ski> @where Ganymede
01:56:51 <lambdabot> Implementation by BMeph of the (continuation-based) `Io' language at <http://hackage.haskell.org/package/Ganymede>
01:57:40 <ski> oerjan : i hadn't seen the site <http://canonical.org/~kragen/raph-io.html> before, ty
01:57:51 <ski> Cortex : i don't think so
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02:11:53 <shachaf> ski: But do you have a link to the paper?
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02:13:58 <shachaf> ski: So what I want is something like callCC (\k -> ...) such that you can use the k freely as long as the stack frame still exists, but not once callCC returns.
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02:14:24 <shachaf> I guess that's the same as one-shot continuations.
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02:16:55 <shachaf> I guess what I mean isn't just the stack frame but the actual continuation.
02:17:22 <shachaf> In fact I literally mean that the continuation, as in the rest of the program, can't be copied.
02:18:20 <oerjan> oh the web archive seems to have amalthea's implementation, good (i've sorta got used to such files missing even if the website itself is archived)
02:19:13 <oerjan> . o O ( Cortex isn't a very patient ircist )
02:26:39 <ski> shachaf : hm, i suppose you want DNE, then ?
02:29:55 <shachaf> I guess DNE is linear and callCC is affine
02:30:14 <shachaf> I don't think it matters that much, though. I guess the affine version is fine.
02:32:11 <esowiki> [[Echo Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58417&oldid=58373 * Oerjan * (+148) /* Specification */ Note something fairly obvious
02:33:27 <shachaf> ski: So now I think I want an explicit syntax, e.g. { x := foo`; ... } ---> foo(&{\x; ... })
02:33:56 <shachaf> In particular you might have something like { while`(p); ... }, to have the expression re-evaluated on every iteration.
02:40:52 * ski . o O ( "The anatomy of a loop: a story of scope and control" by Olin Shivers in 2005-09 at <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/citations.html#loop>,<http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1026> )
02:41:03 <moony> . o O ( oerjan thinks a lot )
02:41:04 <esowiki> [[Piet++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58418&oldid=46495 * SplatterWorthy * (-139) felt the move command was "un-piet"
02:49:29 <oerjan> roof light is blinking (on the blink?)
02:53:31 <HackEso> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
02:53:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 170250Z VRB03KT 9999 BKN018 07/06 Q1036 RMK WIND 670FT 22005KT
02:53:50 <lambdabot> KOAK 170153Z 35005KT 1 3/4SM HZ BKN016 BKN020 12/04 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP146 FU BKN016 FU BKN020 T01220044
02:54:18 <shachaf> someone who knows how to read metar tell me which part of that says the whole area is enveloped in smoke
02:58:28 <shachaf> `mkx bin/detar//echo "https://www.aviationweather.gov/metar/data?format=decoded&ids=$1"
02:58:32 <HackEso> https://www.aviationweather.gov/metar/data?format=decoded&ids=KOAK
02:59:42 <shachaf> Unfortunately their decoder seems incomplete?
03:00:42 <shachaf> `mkx bin/detar//echo "https://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/north-america.php?icao=$1"
03:00:53 <shachaf> this website is sufficiently 90s
03:06:20 <HackEso> https://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/north-america.php?icao=KOAK
03:07:20 <Sgeo_> I haven't used Haskell in so long, and I now have a project where I think Haskell might be the best fit
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04:46:00 <esowiki> [[A-DU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58419&oldid=58412 * Salpynx * (+149) /* Cat */ Linear A script version
04:50:17 <esowiki> [[A-DU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58420&oldid=58419 * Salpynx * (+93) ttf font link
04:56:22 <esowiki> [[A-DU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58421&oldid=58420 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Cat */ needs U+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE to maintain alignment
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08:01:48 <Zajt> Anyone seen this before https://puu.sh/C3b0P/9940d2d3aa.png ? I thought it was Malbolge first but it was not
08:04:17 <zzo38> "The problem of finding the best query plan is equivalent to finding a minimum-cost path through the graph that visits each node exactly once." Is that like a traveling salesmen problem?
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13:20:58 <Zajt> Anyone seen this before https://puu.sh/C3b0P/9940d2d3aa.png ? I thought it was Malbolge first but it was not
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20:23:05 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58422&oldid=58407 * Cortex * (+21)
20:28:37 <esowiki> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58423&oldid=58422 * Cortex * (+9)
20:30:46 <esowiki> [[LMBC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58424&oldid=58413 * Cortex * (+105)
20:41:23 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58425&oldid=58416 * Cortex * (+3)
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20:43:16 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58426&oldid=58425 * Cortex * (+92)
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20:44:34 <esowiki> [[Apple Pie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58427&oldid=58405 * Cortex * (+25)
20:47:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58428&oldid=58177 * Cortex * (+23)
20:48:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58429&oldid=58428 * Cortex * (+2)
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22:02:06 <esowiki> [[A-DU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58430&oldid=58421 * Salpynx * (+463) /* Examples */ truth-machine, and double sided tablet example
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22:14:32 <b_jonas> I saw seven firefighting vehicles obviously already on the site of some big trouble today, in Budapest 6, at 2018-11-17 18:20+01:00. From the news article by the MTI (government news agency), there were ten firefighting vehicles,
22:14:51 <b_jonas> and it was a big fire in the roof and top floor of an office building.
22:15:32 <b_jonas> What took me like 20 minutes to realize is why the news says that the fifth storey of a four-storey house was building. But it's really obvious in retrospect.
22:16:44 <b_jonas> Care to guess the solution?
22:18:17 <b_jonas> A clue is that the news entry refers to two different sources for "fifth storey" and "five-storey office building", the first was said by a person using an office there, the second by the firefighters.
22:18:56 <b_jonas> But you may need some local knowledge for this that differs in some European countries, and I'm not sure how it works in the UK.
22:19:56 <b_jonas> This was in the city center of Budapest, so it's entirely impossible that the firefighters found out about this so slowly that the top storey of the building has entirely disappeared without trace by then.
22:20:32 <b_jonas> They have most likely heared of the fire within 30 seconds from when someone has seen the smoke and recognized it as coming from a fire.
22:20:46 <b_jonas> And they probably got there in less than five minutes.
22:21:39 <b_jonas> heh, the topic still says cornucopia. nobody changed that. strange.
22:24:00 <b_jonas> ais523: also, https://youtu.be/qA67T7FPBME video of ceremonial vote on CIPM conference by representatives of delegates of member states accepting new definitions of SI kilogram, ampere, mole and kelvin
22:25:14 <b_jonas> it's basically a formal celebration that the definitions had de facto been accepted by that time
22:25:18 <ais523> the most obvious reason to me for a "fifth storey"/"four-storey" discrepancy would be related to different numbering systems for storeys
22:25:25 <ais523> although the typical off-by-one goes in the other direction
22:25:58 <ais523> the standard numbering system in the UK is "ground floor" for the floor with the entrance, "first floor" for the floor above
22:26:06 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that one is actually consistently wrong in Hungary, "four-storey" always means that the top storey is the "fourth storey"
22:26:19 <b_jonas> but it is a difference in numbering, just not that
22:26:36 <b_jonas> yeah, what you're saying basically
22:26:53 <ais523> although given how hilly places like Birmingham are, frequently there are multiple ground floors, so you can have, e.g. "lower ground, upper ground, first floor"…
22:27:20 <ais523> places with more than two ground floors tend to use an entirely artificial numbering system; those aren't standardised and often make no sense
22:27:32 <zzo38> Some buildings in here also are 1 for the floor above the ground floor
22:28:07 <b_jonas> for ordinary buildings with the entrance to a floor right above the ground, that floor is called groundfloor and numbered 0 consistently
22:28:15 <ais523> places in the UK which get a lot of foreign visitors often number the ground floor as 0, which makes things clearer for the foreigners whilst not contradicting the standard UK numbering scheme
22:29:08 <ais523> b_jonas: well, given the standard correspondence 0=first, 1=second, 2=third, if "four-storey house" means that the top storey is numbered 4, it would be the fifth storey, and that would fix the discrepancy
22:29:29 <b_jonas> but many buildings have the entrance on a storey that's either half a storey below ground level, and in that case, that floor is sometimes numbered 0 and sometimes -1, and sometimes people don't even know how it's numbered or use it inconsistently
22:29:37 <ais523> one of the biggest mistakes in English is to derive words like "fourth" from "four" rather than from "three"
22:29:59 <ais523> or, well, actually English has lots of much bigger mistakes because it's English, but that one really annoys me
22:30:18 <zzo38> I think they should just call the ground floor zero, since the level above the ground is zero, since it is at the ground.
22:30:26 <b_jonas> I have lived in such a building, with the entrance a meter below the ground. the storey with the entrance had the office of a small company and some common rooms, the three floors above had apartments
22:30:40 <ais523> over here floors below the ground floor are normally just called "basement", although you see negative numbers sometimes, especially if there's more than one of httem
22:31:02 <b_jonas> the storey with the entrance in that building was variously numbered 0 and -1, even in some official papers
22:31:40 <b_jonas> in buildings with an elevator, there is usually a consistent numbering because the elevator buttons are numbered, but the firefighters need not know about that numbering when they go for a fire
22:32:41 <b_jonas> for bigger buildings on sloped terrain, it happens that the same floor with an entrance is right above the ground on one face of the building, but below ground from the other face of the building. sometimes there's even entrances to two different levels on the different sides.
22:32:46 <ais523> in the UK the vast majority of buildings, other than dwellings/houses, that have multiple floors will have a lift (en_US:elevator)
22:33:02 <ais523> so the numbering from that will work
22:33:18 <b_jonas> a good example for such a building is the building K of BME (university), a rather large building
22:33:20 <ais523> the reason is basically because public buildings require disabled access to every floor
22:33:34 <ais523> and a lift is normally the only practical way to do that
22:33:48 <b_jonas> this one has five entrances, one on the front face from the Danube's side that is one storey higher than the other four entries on the other three sides of the building
22:34:22 <b_jonas> the storeys of the building have actually been renumbered a few years ago, with an offset of 1
22:34:22 <ais523> that'd be enough to indicate two ground floors, I think, in the UK
22:35:24 <ais523> in the building where I work the floors are numbered LG, UG, 1, 2, even though there's only one public entrance (on the upper ground floor); the lower ground floor has some fire exits at ground level (it's on a slope)
22:35:45 <ais523> also a loading entrance, I think (i.e. for moving goods from lorries into the building)
22:36:08 <zzo38> You can use 0 for the entrance I think is good
22:36:34 <b_jonas> zzo38, ais523: yes, that's correct about the storeys. the problem with 1-based ordinals themselves isn't specific to English, nor does it originate there. ancient Latin has had 1-based ordinals, which is why they say that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday, the third day after his death on Friday.
22:37:01 <b_jonas> the Jesus resurrection thing actually confused me a great deal when I was young
22:38:17 <b_jonas> as for naming the floors, if the floor half below the ground is numbered -1, then floor 0 is generally called either "magasföldszint" (elevated ground floor) or "félemelet" (half[th] storey).
22:40:09 <ais523> we have the word "mezzanine", which is basically a floor constructed inside the vertical extent of another floor (e.g. you have a large ground floor on one side of the building, but on the other side it's split into two)
22:40:24 <ais523> I don't think it's common to have no floor that matches ground level
22:41:06 <ais523> (in some areas the ground floor is about 50cm above-ground so that the basement can extend slightly above ground, giving access to natural light and a fire escape, but it's still considered the basement)
22:41:07 <b_jonas> it's especially confusing, because the day after easter sunday is a government holiday in Hungary, and it is called easter monday, and I also knew that Easter was (at least according to christianty) the feast of the resurrection of Jesus, so it was natural to assume that Jesus was resurrected on Monday then,
22:42:29 <b_jonas> only then it wasn't clear why Sundays in general were considered sort of the equivalent of the Sabbath by christianty, with the biggest christian churches claiming that one of the tenth commandments is to be understood to refer to Sundays now (though some christian churches disagree, and claim it refers to Saturday or Friday)
22:43:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that happens too
22:43:54 <b_jonas> and in fact the floor with the entrance being slightly above ground is probably more likely for an office building in that dense inner city area than a floor a little below ground
22:44:39 <b_jonas> exactly because then the storey below the entrance level gets some light through windows partly lowered below the sidewalk
22:44:55 <b_jonas> s/partly lowered below/lowered partly below/
22:45:18 <ais523> oh, I think some hotels also have raised ground floors because it lets them install an impressive-looking staircase going up to them
22:45:30 <ais523> but they'll typically have a ground-level side entrance for disabled access
22:46:12 <b_jonas> did anyone else have this problem about Easter when they were young? or did you just get some organized education about christian culture and so could avert that?
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22:47:27 <b_jonas> ais523: and yes, being an algebrist type of mathematician, one who cares about notation, I totally agree that ordinals should have started with 0, like "first, second, twoth, threeth, fourth ...", and generally use 0-based indexes without using the ordinals in the grammar sense,
22:48:19 <b_jonas> and I absolutely freaking hate how lua, a language that was decently designed and decently implemented, has a built-in # operator and a built-in optimized representation for dictionaries behaving as arrays, both of which only work well if you're using 1-based indexes for the arrays,
22:48:29 <b_jonas> and also absolutely hate how GAP uses 1-based indexes
22:51:33 <b_jonas> this GAP http://www.gap-system.org/ , for the record
22:57:38 <zzo38> Sometimes you might want a array index starting with something other than zero, but usually zero is better.
22:58:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the most common is wanting one starting with -1, but one starting with 1 or even 2 happens too
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23:43:34 <zzo38> I have starting writing the implementation of Netsubscribe. Currently it reads configuration from /etc/netsubscribe.conf and I have implemented subcommands "analyze", "checkpoint", and "vacuum", and configuration options for various limits and some permissions. Eventually I can also add the subcommands to use the protocol (mainly to use with xinetd), to post a note, list messages, set tags, etc.
23:45:22 <zzo38> But I also have a few questions, such as how should I do deferred operations that can be scheduled to do later and if it can't be done, to try again later until it is successful or gives up?