< 1541203528 51408 :vertrex!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1541203578 876243 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1541203612 798306 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Quit: I seem to have stopped. < 1541203621 437984 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1541203627 358335 :atehwa!atehwa@aulis.sange.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1541203628 528837 :vertrex!~vertrex@unaffiliated/vertrex JOIN :#esoteric < 1541203999 870686 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1541204407 20908 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1541204442 791622 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541205057 681404 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1541205406 714679 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541205677 620889 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm looking at the 88110 manual PDF that you linked. It says that the result of adding or subtracting two NaNs is a certain fixed positive NaN (although that NaN isn't the same indeterminate NaN that x87 and SSE use, it's a different one, but a fixed one. < 1541205695 192826 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm. < 1541205704 987265 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is yet another behavior, definitely different from the x87, SSE, and MMIX behaviors, although I'll have to double-check what the heck ARM does. < 1541205726 50724 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P No-one can agree on how floating point even works < 1541205754 447875 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though this is different, it's at least a reasonably sane behavior on its own actually, saner than the SSE or MMIX behaviors when taken alone. < 1541205780 324130 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1541205783 870609 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it was probably cheaper to implement than the x87 NaN behavior < 1541205806 245495 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :still means i have to put a check around every floating point subtract haha < 1541205861 430391 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the MC88110 has a fairly clean execution model, which makes it easier to emulate < 1541205887 180102 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also returns this different NaN if you subtract infinities or divide zeros. < 1541205888 95524 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus all instructions are the same size, which means that less info has to be passed around when performing JIT to keep track of the IP < 1541205934 867636 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: no, you don't have to. the NaNs are propagated further, you only have to check at the end of the calculation or at certain branches, though you can probably write most branches in such a way that it Just Works doing the right thing. < 1541205977 301915 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the graphics instructions are similar enough to the SSE ones that i can just use SSE for some of them < 1541205987 543400 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :altho the pmul instruction will be very problematic < 1541206010 86811 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It allows values in one spot to overflow into the other, a very strange behavior) < 1541206050 872058 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, can you think of a good way to make a optimized sequence for executing the PMUL instruction? :P < 1541206081 625788 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I actually like their idea that this special NaN value is binary 0 11111111 1100000 00000000 00000000, again unless for compatibility that's better than the x87 or SSE one, which is the one with the smallest mantissa, 0 11111111 1000000 00000000 00000000, < 1541206125 476142 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the difference doesn't matter too much actually < 1541206129 887935 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, the 88k is a nice processor, it's kinda a shame it flopped lol < 1541206161 853828 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: huh what? what PMUL instruction what? I don't get the context < 1541206208 445271 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :See section 5: Graphics Unit Implementation < 1541206343 485764 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: wow, this one looks arcane < 1541206361 128683 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yea < 1541206365 91769 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pmul will be a tough one < 1541206379 697979 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's common in graphics code, so making it fast is a must if i implement a display peripheral < 1541206410 749380 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: wait, I'm trying to figure out how that instruction actually works < 1541206465 225256 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says "The contents of register pair rS1:rS1+1 are multiplied by the contents of the register rS2 as if they were full 64- and 32-bit numbers, respectively" < 1541206469 740976 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound too bad < 1541206484 9691 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1541206489 445585 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remembered it diffirently haha < 1541206516 431221 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way i remembered it, it could overflow ALL boundaries, not just a halfword. < 1541206517 928729 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION derps < 1541206548 494864 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they were quite clever when they made the 88k's bitfield instructions < 1541206565 741336 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can be used to replace what would be like x86's shl/shr instructions < 1541206584 241913 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as such, said equivalent instructions don't exist, because they're unneeded :D < 1541206861 698747 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can implement it on x86 with a 64-bit index register MUL instruction if you free up RDX and RAX, or with a 64-bit index register MULX instruction on new x86_64 cpus, or < 1541206903 128173 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in pure XMM registers by two separate multipliers and like two to four extra instructions depending on the cpu I think. < 1541206912 95898 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAX through RSI are liekly going to be free in my design < 1541206916 293510 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean two separate multiply instructions, because there's no single wide enough one. < 1541206919 929084 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/liek/like/ < 1541206945 15589 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're so common, so keeping them as scratch makes sense < 1541206952 788980 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: sure, but you also need to transfer one operand to RAX and get the result from RAX < 1541206967 200963 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's extra moves < 1541206975 835455 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1541207045 533309 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also as i use an AMD cpu, i'm going to follow along with there recommendations and avoid overusing the SSE registers in code that doesn't gain much from them. (Speculative execution on the CPU uses the registers when they're not being used (0'd out) by the currently running code) < 1541207067 161755 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :will this be a pure interpreter, or are you planning to JIT-compile some instruction sequences to pure x86_64 later, or something in between (compiling to an intermediate representation that is)? < 1541207082 384993 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIT. JIT's a must < 1541207085 738668 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: read intel's optimization manuals < 1541207109 388707 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that there's separate x86_64 optimization manuals for different generations of the processor cores < 1541207115 764722 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ik < 1541207139 733524 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I also recommend Agner Fog's manuals, they tell a lot about optimizations, probably more than you already know < 1541207150 662827 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.agner.org/optimize/ < 1541207181 604466 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously get the latest version of the x86_64 architecture manual, of the optimization manual, and of Agner Fog's manual, since you have an internet connection < 1541207246 919805 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: wow. but you'll make it work without JIT to debug out the errors at first, right? and throw in the JIT later < 1541207254 389515 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1541207259 516466 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very good < 1541207268 158884 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :combining the two is actually the best choice < 1541207276 5959 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be interested to see what you get, and probably other people too < 1541207283 383174 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well certainly < 1541207285 561761 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the 88k itself is capable of JIT, and constantly recompiling JITed code with a JIT is stupid < 1541207330 971384 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIT is something people tend to overuse, and I don't think you'll fall into that trap < 1541207346 425354 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1541207355 741483 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i often walk about blindly on a new moon < 1541207402 196885 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :threading and GPU computations too, and for threading in particular IMO the problem is that people try to put code to parallel threads at too low level, when generally it would be better to make much larger chunks of computation to parallel threads, such as entire processes or something, in most of the cases they meet < 1541207443 114341 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Powder Toy is a case where neither of those have been used and they're urgently needed haha < 1541207464 44996 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :entire game runs on one thread, maybe a second to run gravity sim in parallel but thats about it < 1541207475 872433 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most notable case was when I was encoding a dozen video files at the same time, on a machine with a dozen cpu cores and two-way NUMA, and at first I didn't notice that the video encoder assumed I'd only encode one or two and tried to do each encoding in a dozen parallel threads because that's how many cores there were < 1541207496 235073 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only noticed because the memory usage was so high that it ran out of memory, which was lucky < 1541207502 652502 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I'd have had trouble figuring out what's wrong < 1541207548 385739 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily the encoder does have an option to not do that, and use only one thread for all the main work < 1541207607 598525 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm very annoyed when people try to demand threads or GPU or JIT as silver bullets even in cases when they don't help < 1541207634 347971 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is part of why I'm interested in x86_64 and efficient computation, especially in the single-threaded cpu case < 1541207646 91922 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the case when I don't do threading or GPU computations or JIT < 1541207675 218346 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also try to know how to use threading or processes the right way though < 1541207700 941990 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :TPT could genuinely benefit from it tho :p It also needs a lot of optimization in general, but laziness and mario kart reigns supreme < 1541207715 573609 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could take a crack at it < 1541207716 355882 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1541207757 627471 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh no, I'll do it with my own hobby project, or work I'm payed for < 1541207794 28277 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could also probably do with rewriting the game's graphics to NOT be a freaking software renderer, but again we're all lazy < 1541207816 647107 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a shoddy software renderer at that 🤔 < 1541207832 273309 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "we"? < 1541207853 620246 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Powder Toy is a multiple person open source project. I'm just some random contributer :P < 1541207863 431510 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1541208110 22264 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1541208133 977381 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello Ørjan < 1541208334 503456 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good evening moony < 1541208377 249843 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloerjan < 1541208440 168108 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :œrjan™ < 1541208792 351907 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-46-223-124.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1541209647 959109 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-46-223-124.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541211994 373818 :wob_jonas!b03f18e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.232 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1541212286 92732 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats enough procrastination for me. time to actually begin work on the emulator < 1541214776 438800 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Thanks for all the advice :) < 1541219553 852382 :yaewa!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541219660 945938 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1541221464 700958 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1541222663 195970 :TellsTogo!3ecd6084@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.205.96.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541222868 557778 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wyimnwmruiopstmc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1541223737 244657 :TellsTogo!3ecd6084@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.205.96.132 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1541224409 854922 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nplyhutdvxzgbqkz JOIN :#esoteric > 1541228502 63881 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58179&oldid=58020 5* 03Gamer 5* (+80) 10/* General Ideas */ > 1541228573 953734 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07List of ideas14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58180&oldid=58179 5* 03Gamer 5* (+58) 10/* General Ideas */ < 1541232060 272102 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1541232076 331175 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541234453 347027 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@145.255.3.189 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541236225 999622 :yaewa!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1541236247 838354 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541238468 565891 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nplyhutdvxzgbqkz QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1541240275 834689 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1541241893 472371 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58181&oldid=58118 5* 03Gamer 5* (+14) 10/* D */ > 1541242008 439207 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58182&oldid=58107 5* 03Gamer 5* (+85) 10/* General languages */ > 1541242861 579760 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HQ9funge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58183&oldid=57886 5* 03Gamer 5* (+72) 10 < 1541244163 717521 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric > 1541244235 155882 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=58184 5* 03Gamer 5* (+1190) 10Created page with "'''TPLHBPTBOTEW''', which is an acronym for '''This Programming Language Has Been Proven To Be On The Esolangs Wiki''', is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by Us..." > 1541244355 641457 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move10 02 5* 03Gamer 5* 10moved [[02TPLHBPTBOTEW10]] to [[```` ` ` `]]: i accidentally created the page < 1541244843 324742 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-46-223-124.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1541245487 454783 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1541245636 362573 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@77.28.209.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541245636 503141 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@77.28.209.135 QUIT :Changing host < 1541245636 503185 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541246323 230864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541246569 503709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: amb is quite different from time travel, a) you can reliably simulate it on a classical computer, b) it's impossible to create a paradox with it < 1541246584 538768 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main problem is just that it's inefficient < 1541246687 188771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a vaguely related subject to that of CPU emulators: there's something I'd like to do and I don't know how easy or difficult it is < 1541246751 104926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to get a decent proportion of Debian running under WebAssembler (ideally compiling the packages from source), with a custom kernel (i.e. not Linux) that just handles the system calls that are meaningful in that context < 1541246786 495372 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm imagining that the filesystems would be a) a read-only filesystem that downloads the files from the Internet, b) a read-write filesystem that's just in-memory and disappears when you close the browser tab < 1541247502 644021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1541247575 923164 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541248944 118085 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@145.255.3.189 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: thanks, yes, amb alone seems inequivalent < 1541249181 969219 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: this is different, but related: are you aware of https://bellard.org/jslinux/ ? < 1541250425 997244 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes < 1541250440 422095 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I believe it emulates the entire CPU, and thus is likely fairly inefficient > 1541250457 549392 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07```` ` ` `14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58187&oldid=58185 5* 03Gamer 5* (+3287) 10 < 1541250489 746681 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, it does, which is why I wrote that it's different from what you suggested. < 1541250554 799887 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the technical description mentioins emscripten which apparently can deal with translating C to Javascript; it could be interesting to investigate its limitations. < 1541250582 172751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to run emscripten for the last 10 minutes < 1541250586 603481 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version packaged in Ubuntu seems to be buggy > 1541250713 592980 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07HQ9funge14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58188&oldid=58183 5* 03Gamer 5* (+5) 10 > 1541250818 960028 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07```` ` ` `14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58189&oldid=58187 5* 03Gamer 5* (+216) 10 > 1541250890 62004 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/move14]]4 move_redir10 02 5* 03Gamer 5* 10moved [[02```` ` ` `10]] to [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] over redirect > 1541250890 68927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete_redir10 02 5* 03Gamer 5* 10Gamer deleted redirect [[02TPLHBPTBOTEW10]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[```` ` ` `]]" > 1541250949 977739 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07```` ` ` `14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58192&oldid=58191 5* 03Gamer 5* (-26) 10Blanked the page < 1541250954 765154 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541251030 840214 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so all the user level packages would be directly compiled to webassembly (or a combination of webassembly and javascript and interpreters), and nothing would emulate a cpu? < 1541251070 866949 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that's the idea < 1541251074 651834 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how hard or easy this would be < 1541251093 717569 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how much of debian would you want this to run? would you want programs connecting to an X11 that runs in the same browser somehow? > 1541251111 530340 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/delete14]]4 delete10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10deleted "[[02```` ` ` `10]]": Author request: apparently created by mistake < 1541251137 709371 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'd initially be happy as a single-user system with a command line < 1541251162 952677 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: writing a suitable kernel is probably possible, because people have ran simpler unix programs on many very different kernels already < 1541251200 513748 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about compiling packages to the browser, because I'm not familiar at all with modern web client-side scripting, and don't intend to learn it either. < 1541251219 980344 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may use a little client-side scripting in webpages, but it's all so simple that I don't need modern tech for it. < 1541251258 169034 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, webassembly is the obvious thing to use < 1541251267 519446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's hard to find information about the toolchain < 1541251281 579776 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of modern CSS and MathML features I do want to learn a little though. Especially how you can sanely put MathML and fallback HTML code on the same webpage in a sane way such that browsers will show the Right One of the two automatically, ideally even if javascript isn't ran. < 1541251456 852989 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ask the rust guys on irc server irc.mozilla.org channel #rust for pointers about webassembly, they know a lot about it because they make a webassembly backend for rustc (the compiler) < 1541251469 125030 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might know about the toolchain < 1541251484 233172 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly ask in channel #rust-offtopic in the same place if you only care about non-rust toolchain < 1541251513 888376 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also try asking in ##workingset on freenode, but that channel is small < 1541252085 585367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, some web searches imply that the Debian/Ubuntu emcc is a) very old, b) has a trigger which causes it to not work correctly (the current leading theory is having clang installed, which I do, but it may be unconditional) < 1541252437 999833 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvlxzilzuzpgzjuk JOIN :#esoteric < 1541252596 787327 :wob_jonas!b03f18ed@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.237 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1541255597 668005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1541258477 634393 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58193&oldid=58190 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2285) 10 > 1541258516 999888 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58194&oldid=58193 5* 03Gamer 5* (+4) 10/* Commands */ > 1541258680 887650 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58195&oldid=58194 5* 03Gamer 5* (+163) 10/* Language Overview */ > 1541259055 796530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58196&oldid=58195 5* 03Gamer 5* (+27) 10/* Commands */ > 1541259089 503857 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58197&oldid=58196 5* 03Gamer 5* (+5) 10/* Concept */ > 1541259118 466750 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58198&oldid=58197 5* 03Gamer 5* (-4) 10/* Computational class */ > 1541259273 183533 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58199&oldid=58198 5* 03Gamer 5* (+30) 10/* Concept */ > 1541259288 329425 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58200&oldid=58199 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Concept */ > 1541259330 598866 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58201&oldid=58200 5* 03Gamer 5* (-4) 10/* Concept */ > 1541259625 100335 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58202&oldid=58201 5* 03Gamer 5* (+84) 10/* Truth-machine */ > 1541259805 981649 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07TPLHBPTBOTEW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58203&oldid=58202 5* 03Gamer 5* (+2) 10/* Truth-machine */ > 1541262045 682946 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58204&oldid=58181 5* 03Gamer 5* (+19) 10/* T */ < 1541262821 581256 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1541262855 360350 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541262952 855721 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1541262964 427472 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541263999 115833 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric > 1541266325 36997 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Joke language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58205&oldid=58182 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+0) 10q cemos beefor u < 1541266540 531077 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( math papers don't look that way. ) < 1541267871 89843 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541267935 342212 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I bought a CAT B30 dual sim mobile phone. I'm setting it up and will test it. So far I think its user interface is better designed than the Nokia's, not that there aren't downsides, but I'll try to tell more when I tested it. < 1541267988 75342 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if I'll adopt it immediately, that depends on how well it fits in my current belt loop mobile phone holder bag. < 1541268014 873812 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'm not sure if I'll adopt it as my main phone immediately. < 1541268039 302799 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I also have to buy a screen protection foil, but I won't delay using the phone to when that one arrives. < 1541268139 687092 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly it sometimes seem to lag noticably, in that there's a delay of deciseconds until it reacts to a button press. That sucks. < 1541268216 229115 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: is this from the company that made the grandmaphone that impressed you? < 1541268238 623864 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, that company is MyPhone < 1541268246 177883 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1541268273 445220 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a phone that is protected against water and mechanical shocks, from a company that makes such phones. < 1541268319 574882 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that also comes with having a sane interface, because the people who buy that kind of phone don't care that much about a fancy modern but unusable interface. < 1541268362 745153 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also because of the protection, it has a smaller display, and it costs a bit more, but it's still relatively cheap. < 1541268403 220511 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I looked a bit at the Myphone non-grandma feature phone, but it seemed to be worse < 1541268447 344134 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one seems to have an even more terrible Hungarian UI translation, though I've only seen a very small sample of translated messages before I changed the UI language to English. < 1541268742 500306 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1541269017 283594 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would want to see a library and API to execute WebAssembly programs from a native C code. < 1541271043 862728 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1541272111 913077 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541272178 516540 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem with this mobile phone is that I don't seem to find a way to make the calendar display change to show weeks with Monday as their first day. That will make the calendar rather error-prone for me to use. < 1541273403 140892 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should need one that you can reprogram with your own program instead of the one included in there already. > 1541273798 734439 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Timwi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58206&oldid=47169 5* 03Timwi 5* (+22) 10 > 1541273820 16679 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Timwi14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=58207&oldid=58206 5* 03Timwi 5* (-54) 10 < 1541274083 879174 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric : {?} Enchantment - Saga ;; I, II, III--Create a 1/1 white Bird creature token with flying and banding. ;; IV--Target permanent gains protection from a color of your choice until end of turn. < 1541274092 315854 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you would think of them? < 1541274130 410857 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: at what cost? < 1541274185 711286 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what cost < 1541274239 332180 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me check the comp rules for how Sagas work... they're too new, and didn't seem useful, so I don't remember. < 1541274429 909155 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abilities with roman numbers are triggered abilities, that trigger when a counter is added that increases it to that many or more. A turn-based action during your precombat main phase adds a counter. It starts with one counter, which triggers ability I. State-based actions get rid of it if it has as many or more counters as the last one if its abilities are not on the stack. < 1541274541 502153 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. I read the rules. they're strange < 1541274543 634984 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This turn-based action is after setting a scheme in motion, if any. I don't know if this is your question, but before the rules were released this was my first question about it.) < 1541274590 2169 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the rule that the Saga is sacrificed as a state-based action, and think it should have been done it simply dies. < 1541274656 802179 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not my question, but sure. < 1541274816 24456 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, in order to be more consistent with the rules for schemes and phenomena, that state-based action should consider any triggered ability rather than only chapter abilities, I should think; it seem strange that they do not match) < 1541274956 795250 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that might be deliberate, because a saga is an enchantment so it's possible to have it gain all sorts of triggered abilities by using other cards, while they probably won't have other triggered abilities in their oracle text, while a plane often has other triggered abilities in the oracle text and it's hard to make it gain an ability because < 1541274956 935526 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's not a permanent < 1541274978 279638 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, maybe that is why. < 1541275011 64324 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For schemes this might not matter, I don't know. < 1541276102 290280 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name aura flux < 1541276105 757280 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aura Flux \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Other enchantments have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this enchantment unless you pay {2}." \ UL-C < 1541276994 813444 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1541277424 1140 :wob_jonas!b03f1887@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.135 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1541279264 402938 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1541279283 375280 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1541280140 840023 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1541280278 327416 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1541281454 801994 :hexfive!~hexfive@50-46-223-124.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1541281600 339254 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@145.255.3.189 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1541287743 289946 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1541288031 378777 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf5tit6s260cpd.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1541288610 501954 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@46.217.177.83 JOIN :#esoteric < 1541288751 335077 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1541288751 604915 :Lord_of_Life_!~Lord@46.217.177.83 NICK :Lord_of_Life < 1541288751 979415 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@46.217.177.83 QUIT :Changing host < 1541288751 979465 :Lord_of_Life!~Lord@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric