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01:09:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnMEI4aoUfo
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01:47:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57455&oldid=57444 * A * (+41) /* Categorization */
01:49:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57456&oldid=57434 * A * (+23)
01:49:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57457&oldid=57456 * A * (+0) Mispelling
01:53:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57458&oldid=57457 * A * (+37)
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01:54:38 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57459&oldid=57458 * A * (+0)
01:57:14 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57460&oldid=57459 * A * (+200)
01:58:39 <Sgeo_> Oh cool, a Commodore BASIC quine:
01:59:32 <Sgeo_> https://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm calls that one a cheat
02:00:16 <zzo38> Many interactive BASIC interpreters support that, I think?
02:00:42 <Sgeo_> I'm not very familiar with BASIC, I'm mostly learning due to my unexpected interest in Commodore 64
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02:13:47 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57461&oldid=57460 * A * (+448)
02:14:20 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57462&oldid=57461 * A * (-28)
02:15:26 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57463&oldid=57453 * A * (+138) I am finished now. (Just un-checked)
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02:21:41 <Sgeo_> Someone wrote a virus for an OS for Commodore 64
02:21:49 <Sgeo_> "I have not provided an executable for obvious reasons; it you want to try it out, you'll have to figure out a way to build it yourself."
02:22:40 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57464&oldid=57462 * A * (+80) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */
02:24:18 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57465&oldid=57464 * A * (+86) /* Try Again */
02:27:29 <zzo38> How to add your own commands into the Z: drive in DOSBOX?
02:28:10 <Sgeo_> I thought those were hardcoded?
02:28:21 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57466&oldid=57465 * A * (+19) Check again for bad english
02:28:55 <Sgeo_> Unless you modify DOSBox itself I guess
02:30:44 <Sgeo_> zzo38, here's the area where Z: programs are added
02:30:45 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/Henne/dosbox-svn/blob/ac06986809899ea5f922cb29a194e0770169e1ad/src/dos/dos_programs.cpp#L1634
02:31:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57467&oldid=57463 * A * (+0) And a mispelled word
02:32:00 <zzo38> I want to add my own files; is it possible to add another drive and add into the PATH automatically in all DOS sessions, to add my own commands?
02:32:33 <Sgeo_> Yes, that's much easier
02:32:44 <Sgeo_> dosbox.conf has an autoexec section
02:32:45 <zzo38> I mean the files are external programs rather than being built-in commands
02:34:45 <zzo38> What will DOSBOX do if a DOS program tries to set the date/time?
02:34:45 <Sgeo_> https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23611 see the third post
02:34:59 <Sgeo_> "Are you sure that you want to? It's easier to just add PATH=Z:\;C:\DOSUTILS to the [autoexec] portion of your DOSBox configuration file, where C:\DOSUTILS refers to a real subfolder on a mounted "c drive." "
02:35:15 <Sgeo_> (And you can add mount commands there as well)
02:36:01 <zzo38> Yes, that can be done, OK
02:37:18 <zzo38> Is printer redirection possible in DOSBOX? Is it possible to connect COM1/LPT1/etc to files and TCP/IP connections?
02:39:08 <zzo38> Also is there any way to perform a video memory dump?
02:39:38 <Sgeo_> DOSBox supports turning some old protocol (IPX) into TCP/IP connections, not sure how.
02:39:48 <Sgeo_> Printing's probably easier
02:43:08 <zzo38> I mean just to write the printer output to a file, and then an external program can be used to convert ESC/P to DVI or whatever is needed.
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03:52:06 <Sgeo_> "It's also not possible to store a GEOS file on a remote internet site because chances are that site knows nothing about how a GEOS file is constructed."
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08:30:49 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57468&oldid=57466 * A * (+194) Some comments
08:34:09 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57469&oldid=57468 * A * (+243)
08:34:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57470&oldid=57469 * A * (-8)
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08:41:08 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57471&oldid=57470 * A * (+8) Undo revision 57470 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
08:41:21 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57472&oldid=57471 * A * (-243) Undo revision 57469 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
08:41:43 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57473&oldid=57472 * A * (-194) Undo revision 57468 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]])
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09:06:11 <Sgeo__> I don't think DOSBox is the best way to emulate Commodore DOS
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10:34:04 <int-e> @check \xs -> reverse xs == xs
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16:19:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't really know much about dosbox. I only used it to play some DOS games, for which dosbox is apparently a popular choice.
16:19:17 <wob_jonas> But I used bochs, a whole machine emulator, with MS-DOS, to make termbot, which if you can recall was an IRC bot that connected a DOS machine (with two compilers and a line editor and a few other software) onto an IRC channel, giving users full control (root access) to the DOS machine.
16:19:42 <wob_jonas> I didn't run it much, because I'm afraid people can abuse bugs in the emulator to break out of it.
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16:20:11 <wob_jonas> But that one had the virtual machine's serial port connected to my script, and my script transferred data between that and IRC.
16:20:45 <wob_jonas> I can show you how exactly I did it, including the source code of the connecting script and the configuration for bochs if you want. I won't give the full hard disk contents.
16:22:45 <wob_jonas> Eventually I used two hard disks, a boot hard disk and a data hard disk, so that if you get the computer into a bricked state, which isn't too hard by just writing random stuff to the raw disk image, then you can use a command from IRC to reset the contents of the boot harddisk but preserve the data hard disk. That's not foolproof, because I suspec
16:22:45 <wob_jonas> t it might be possible to mess up the partition table of the data hard disk in such a way that DOS won't boot, but just zeroing it won't work.
16:23:03 <wob_jonas> In any case, I could reset the data hard disk manually if someone manages to do that.
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16:39:47 <zzo38> Is there anything in Linux like a /dev/camera to access a camera that you can do such like: ff-shrink 3 < /dev/camera | ffjpeg > out.jpeg or whatever
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17:07:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I don't know much about local camera interfaces.
17:17:23 <ais523> zzo38: the relevant device file is /dev/video0 but at least cat doesn't seem to be able to read it, even when running as root
17:18:03 <zzo38> Do you need a special program to access it?
17:19:03 <ais523> reading up on this, apparently dd doesn't work either, but programs like ffmpeg can read it
17:19:18 <ais523> my suspicion is that it only works with very specific buffer sizes, or something like that
17:20:47 <fizzie> If it's a V4L2 device, it works by doing a lot of specific ioctl's.
17:23:25 <ais523> webcams are quite different from many input devices because they continuously capture video while turned on, as opposed to recording input reactively when they receive it
17:40:47 <wob_jonas> webcomes are quite different from other webcams too
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19:11:28 <Sgeo__> I wonder if I could run a Brainfuck interpreter inside a C64's floppy drive
19:12:28 <zzo38> Can a C64's floppy drive be reprogrammed?
19:12:58 <Sgeo__> I don't know, but it does have its own CPU apparently
19:15:48 <ais523> modern hard drives are powerful enough to run fairly complex programs
19:16:06 <ais523> a C64 is much older but should still be able to run BF, almost anything with a CPU can
19:22:05 <Sgeo__> I still can't get over the notion of drives having their own CPUs
19:22:31 <Sgeo__> Or "DOS" being an OS that sits on a floppy drive instead of being a silly name for an OS that's run to operate a full computer system
19:26:48 <Sgeo__> ....I just realized how hypocritical it is to marvel at a computer that's effectively inside a keyboard, while using my laptop.
19:28:51 <ais523> small/low-powered computers are really cheap nowadays
19:29:00 <ais523> for embedded work, I mean
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19:30:31 <ais523> you can get a small microcontroller for less than a dollar
19:30:38 <wob_jonas> right. many webcomes have a powerful computer in them too
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19:35:32 <ais523> Sgeo__: here's an example of a CPU which costs $1 exactly if bought in bulk: https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC32MM0064GPL028
19:36:38 <ais523> 64 kilobytes of flashable ROM to hold the program, 8 kilobytes of RAM, and a range of low-level peripherals built right into it and directly accessible
19:37:18 <fizzie> The CPU in the 1541 disk drive is actually pretty much the same thing as what's in the C64 itself (a 1 MHz 6502; the C64 has a 6510, but that's not too different).
19:37:20 <ais523> and a 25 MHz clock rate when not running in low-power mode
19:38:34 <ais523> apparently if you're running it completely standalone it only has an 8 MHz clock rate because that's how fast the built-in clock runs
19:38:48 <ais523> I like microcontrollers, they're like computers with built-in motherboards and peripherals
19:44:04 <wob_jonas> I don't like them, but they're everywhere. There's one in my debit card, there's several in my cheap mobile phone, there's one or more in the cheap hands-free headset, so that's several right that I carry with me.
19:44:22 <wob_jonas> I only really like big computers with lots of performance.
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19:48:07 <wob_jonas> there's probably one in the battery of the mobile phone too, and the battery of my camera, and several in the camera, including one in the micro-SD card that's in it, and one in the spare micro-SD card I carry with the camera, and there's probably two in my electric toothbrush and one or two in this keyboard I'm typing on and one in the mouse,
19:48:58 <wob_jonas> and there's definitely a few in the mini tower I use as the amplifier between the computer and the speakers,
19:49:49 <wob_jonas> and that's only the ones I know of, because who know, maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too
19:50:33 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I only really like big computers with lots of performance. => and who doesn’t!
19:50:58 <wob_jonas> oh, I forgot to mention the TFT display
19:52:29 <wob_jonas> and the remote control for the mini tower, and the three led lighting controllers in my house, and the ratio remote controller for one of the led lightings, and there's a proxy token on my keychain that opens five doors now
19:53:09 <arseniiv> maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too => for most bacteria, it should essentially be nano
19:53:27 <wob_jonas> and in the readers for each of those doors, and in the door phone client and the door phone server at the gate,
19:55:13 <rdococ> There are languages where the program's code is on a grid of characters (a square tiling of the Euclidean plane). Theoretically, then, there could be a language where program code is on different tilings, such as a heptagonal tiling of the hyperbolic plane.
19:55:18 <wob_jonas> oh, I have a landline phone too, and the box the ISP gave me to connect doesn't even make it subtle because it emits a lot of heat and has a big transformer
19:55:34 <ais523> rdococ: Martin Ender writes a lot of those sorts of languages
19:55:37 <wob_jonas> and there's probably microcontrollers in each of the four USB chargers I have
19:55:48 <ais523> Hexagony, which uses a hex grid, is probably the best known
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20:00:54 <Sgeo__> I found a bug in the Wikipedia article on Commodore DOS
20:01:01 <Sgeo__> One of the examples isn't rendering properly
20:01:12 <zzo38> Many things they don't need computer; I have once written a schematic for a telephone answering machine that does not use any computer. It does require an external tape recorder, but the tape recorder doesn't require a computer either.
20:03:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, but these days they just put microcontrollers in everything because it's easier
20:08:57 <ais523> often the cost of a device will primarily depend on how many components it has
20:09:14 <ais523> as more components means you need a bigger circuit board, a more extensive manufacturing process, etc.
20:09:28 <ais523> so using a single microcontroller can be worthwhile as it can do everything on its own
20:10:51 <Sgeo__> Why does 6502 indirect indexed addressing only allow starting from the 0 page?
20:11:28 <ais523> because that means it only uses 8 bits to store the temporary address
20:11:44 <wob_jonas> Sgeo_: the 6502 has very few real registers, so it effectively uses the first 256 bytes of memory as extra registers
20:11:46 <ais523> it only has limited space for that sort of "microcode temporary"
20:14:16 <wob_jonas> oh right, it only has like one adder, and it uses that for arithmetic, indexing, and incrementing the PC, and it's an 8-bit adder so it uses it twice when there's carry
20:15:34 <zzo38> Using the zero page for indirect indexed addressing seems good enough for most purposes anyways; I know 6502 programming, and it can also be used with NES/Famicom too
20:19:10 <ais523> because the NES uses the same instructions as a 6502
20:19:23 <ais523> (there are a few exceptions with undocumented opcodes and decimal mode)
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20:20:14 <zzo38> NES/Famicom has the decimal mode disabled (by removing one internal connection). Also it has the APU and CPU in the same IC.
20:20:38 <zzo38> Other than that it is a NMOS 6502.
20:21:25 <wob_jonas> what? why does it have the decimal mode disabled?
20:21:41 <pikhq> There was a patent on decimal mode.
20:21:57 <pikhq> Gating it off let them not pay a license fee for it.
20:22:34 <zzo38> The decimal mode flags still exists, but it is not connected to the decimal logic and so decimal mode flag does not do anything.
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20:22:55 <wob_jonas> ok, I was just wondering why they'd do that
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21:52:37 <Sgeo__> Is it normal for BASIC to make me want to claw my eyes out? There are no local variables
22:04:13 <ais523> that's common in older languages
22:07:25 <Sgeo__> Does C64 + SuperCPU support memory protection? I know normal C64 can support pre-emptive multitasking (which seems amazing to me), but no memory protection
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23:32:35 <shachaf> So I was trying to figure out what method calls really are.
23:32:53 <shachaf> I think the idea is that they try to provide a sort of dynamic namespace?
23:34:22 <shachaf> With regular static namespaces, I can define foo() in namespace N, and then I can say N.foo()
23:35:32 <zzo38> Now on SQLite mailing list they ask when is next release, it says 4 or 5 weeks. Now I know.
23:35:57 <shachaf> With methods and dynamic namespaces, I can define, say, a "push" method for arrays, and then I can say a.push(x) and b.push(x), and conceptually a.push and b.push are different functions.
23:36:55 <shachaf> Someone told me that instead of the usual method approach I should look at "multiple dispatch", which as far as I can tell means function overloading (?).
23:37:29 <zzo38> In what programming language?
23:37:52 <shachaf> There you'd write the same thing as push(a, x) or push(b, x), with which push you want being disambiguated by the type of the first argument (and maybe other arguments).
23:38:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't have a specific language in mind. Say C++.
23:38:30 <shachaf> This accomplishes a similar goal but it seems to me that it accomplishes it in a very different way!
23:39:10 <shachaf> In a.push(x), I'm looking up the name "push", unambiguously, inside a namespace which is probably small.
23:41:26 <HackEso> smlist 480: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
23:41:38 <shachaf> In the second case there's one global symbol, "push", that everyone adds meanings to, and to find out what push(a, x) means I need to look at all of them to find one that works for me.
23:52:35 <zzo38> One feature only found in the "rtree-geopoly" branch is SQLITE_INDEX_CONSTRAINT_FUNCTION, which may be useful in programs other than rtree-geopoly too.