←2018-08-06 2018-08-07 2018-08-08→ ↑2018 ↑all
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00:42:03 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57258&oldid=57248 * Challenger5 * (+2)
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00:57:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57259&oldid=57255 * A * (+0) :(
00:59:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57260&oldid=57259 * A * (+66) Oh no! I have to paste it on the pastebin. :(
01:01:02 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57261&oldid=57260 * A * (+1)
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01:30:15 <oerjan> . o O ( some does, some deer, some female deer )
01:33:02 <oerjan> regarding dictionaries, i am finally getting around to italian songs and am somewhat annoyed that wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented (barring actual IPA, necessary to know stress and vowel quality)
01:34:42 <oerjan> the russian ones are, presumably because it would be insane not to. and greek has mandatory accents so its spelling -> pronunciation correspondence is actually better than italian (but much worse in the opposite direction)
01:35:42 <oerjan> (also the russian entries use a great automatic IPA module)
01:35:48 <alercah> they're not properly accented? blah
01:35:57 <alercah> unless the accents are optional that should be fixed
01:36:09 <oerjan> alercah: they are optional, but you need them in dictionaries
01:36:11 <alercah> ahhh
01:36:20 <alercah> that should probably be fixed though
01:36:23 <oerjan> (except at the very last syllable, where they're mandatory)
01:36:29 <alercah> maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect
01:36:42 <alercah> I have search for several languages in english wiktionary as search keywords
01:36:52 <alercah> (by which I mean main wiktionary search, but with #Language at the end
01:37:34 <oerjan> alercah: the russian entries use the unaccented form as the article name but still include accents on the entry itself
01:42:02 <alercah> oerjan: interesting
01:42:13 <alercah> Irish entries use accents in the page name
01:42:21 <alercah> this is for English wiktionary though
01:44:09 <oerjan> for russian you pretty much have to do it that way because no one uses the accents outside dictionaries and textbooks. they cannot even get the new letter Ё to stick.
01:44:49 <oerjan> (people use Е instead)
01:46:22 <alercah> ah
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01:48:58 <oerjan> this entry has audio which sounds to me like the accented version would be mèttere, which is wrong https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mettere#Italian
01:49:11 <oerjan> (as i found by checking the italian wiktionary)
01:49:45 <oerjan> the distinction between è and é isn't easy for a norwegian, we pretty much have them as allophones :P
01:50:39 <alercah> yeah
01:51:03 <alercah> things that are allophones in your native language are always difficult to handle
01:51:22 <alercah> I can't really manage palatized/velarized distinction
01:51:23 <oerjan> and ó and ò are similar but perhaps not quite as bad
01:51:46 <oerjan> my dialect has palatal consonants so i got a bit of a head start.
01:51:57 <oerjan> (not all norwegian dialects do)
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01:55:15 <oerjan> although we don't have any velarization, the dark english l helped there.
01:55:51 <oerjan> i think. assuming i actually do it right.
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03:11:09 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages [...] <-- i think you've got oral exams wrong hth
03:11:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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03:12:45 <alercah> unless wob_jonas is the doctor
03:17:45 <zzo38> Do you play Scrabble with memoryless wildcards?
03:25:29 <zzo38> Is wob_jonas a doctor?
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03:38:20 <oerjan> i think he may have a doctorate?
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03:38:59 <zzo38> OK
03:42:03 <oerjan> i am not sure though.
03:42:15 <oerjan> i find an MsC thesis.
03:43:27 <zzo38> OK
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04:14:37 <zzo38> They should add into bsdtar a command to specify the format when reading a archive, to override the autodetection. (It says there is a --format option but it can be used only when writing and not when reading.)
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04:15:49 <Sgeo_> I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?
04:15:59 <Sgeo_> Factor is not a Lisp but I think qualifies for the latter part
04:18:24 <zzo38> (I originally installed bsdtar because it could read truncated ZIP archives, while 7-Zip and Info-Zip do not.)
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05:00:33 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57262&oldid=56450 * A * (+6)
05:01:32 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57263&oldid=57262 * A * (-156) /* Tutorial */
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09:06:33 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented", "the russian ones are" => in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation.
09:06:45 <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries?
09:06:50 <wob_jonas> @messages
09:07:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: mind you, in the English wiktionary, pronunciation is missing for most English words, and you know how bad the correspondance is there
09:08:32 <wob_jonas> if I'm at home, I can use my paper dictionaries to look up the pronunciation of many words
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09:10:22 <wob_jonas> "maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect" => no no. the unaccented form is the normal form, so it's the page title. but the accents are shown in the bold header of each separate unrelated etimology under the language and possibly etimology headings
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09:11:19 <wob_jonas> you find the unaccented form in normal text, so that's what has to be the page title, and in the rare case when you're reading a children's text, either you remove the accents or there's some bot that creates redirects from the accented form
09:12:06 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's like for English dictionaries that show hyphenation in the headwords. wiktionary could do that, but doesn't for some reason, and the page title would not include the hyphenation dots
09:28:21 <wob_jonas> or Hungarian dictionaries that mark compound words written without the hyphen with a vertical bar in the headword, because that is a concise way to tell the etymology for most of them, and for some compound words you would get the wrong hyphenation otherwise
09:47:51 <wob_jonas> "Is wob_jonas a doctor?" => no.
09:50:03 <wob_jonas> think he may have a doctorate?" => I don't. I started a PhD studies, but stopped, I didn't write a thesis and didn't take the final exams either
09:50:15 <wob_jonas> I also didn't defend a thesis, obviously
09:50:41 <wob_jonas> I did defend the MsC-equivalent thesis and got the MsC-equivalent degree
09:51:22 <wob_jonas> "I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?" => scheme does, together with a builtin if control structure
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11:27:40 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57264&oldid=57086 * Hakerh400 * (-35) Updated language description
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12:55:50 <esowiki> [[Noida]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57265 * Saka * (+3007) Created page with "Noida is an esolang created by [[User:Saka]]. It is designed to be simple and easy to write an interpreter for. Noida is short for "No idea" because I didn't know what to nam..."
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13:44:54 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57266&oldid=56201 * Saka * (+12) /* My Languages */
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14:42:14 <wob_jonas> `olist 1133
14:42:15 <HackEso> olist 1133: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:42:39 <wob_jonas> Who was the one who guessed there'd be an olist yesterday? You were wrong. But there is one today.
14:43:13 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh hey I’m almost done
14:43:32 <wob_jonas> I'm not. I'm still at work
14:43:40 <wob_jonas> and getting back to work in a moment
14:43:43 <arseniiv> people mess my concentration however
14:44:16 <arseniiv> no problem, I still will be editing the video after it’s recorded
14:44:39 <arseniiv> and you may watch it any time
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15:52:47 <imode> carl hewitt is a crank, change my view.
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16:10:06 <xkapastel> why? you're correct
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16:11:12 <xkapastel> the initial stuff on actors was okay but now he's in to this weird DirectLogic stuff where he posts cryptic ms word documents on arxiv and responds to questions like a fortune cookie
16:11:34 <xkapastel> "Types are fundamental to computation. Lucky numbers 7, 11, 23."
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16:12:46 <imode> oh he went way overboard with actors. his original paper reads like a seriously unhinged person's monologue, nothing of substance, and what's more he's now claiming that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines.
16:13:09 <xkapastel> yeah the real number stuff, due to unbounded nondeterminism i think?
16:13:54 <imode> yeah but he fails to even produce a proof...
16:14:50 <xkapastel> i'm not even a fan of actors these days, they are basically a form of callbacks
16:15:20 <xkapastel> there was at least one person who claimed to understand hewitt's posts on lambda the ultimate but he hasn't been around in a while
16:15:46 <imode> I'd like them to sit down and explain to me what the fuck he's on about to be honest.
16:15:52 <xkapastel> i just want to see a simple directlogic interpreter
16:16:05 <imode> I read the original paper, in all its scanned-in low-res glory, and it was a mess.
16:16:09 <imode> no actual formalisms.
16:16:21 <imode> I haven't seen DirectLogic, I'll look that up.
16:16:52 <xkapastel> it's connected to his new ActorScript stuff, supposedly some kind of "inconsistency robust" logic
16:17:13 <imode> how in the world is he going to handle that.
16:17:14 <xkapastel> ActorScript itself is not very well defined
16:17:28 <xkapastel> and he seems to introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up
16:17:34 <xkapastel> based on what you can see in the arxiv docs
16:17:58 <xkapastel> if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it
16:18:02 <xkapastel> but all he does is write ms word docs
16:18:16 <imode> we have "inconsistency robust" logic, it's called computation.
16:18:39 <imode> the hell is he on about..
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16:19:07 <imode> http://www.subjectcentric.com/posts/carl_hewitt_s_direct_logic__inconsistency_tolerant_reasoning_and_subject-centric_computing/ I found this on Direct Logic.
16:20:28 <imode> "it means we have arguments for both P and ~P" okay, while that says nothing about the truth value of the proposition, what in the world can you say with that formula.
16:21:00 <xkapastel> well, paraconsistent logic is a thing
16:21:03 <xkapastel> hewitt didn't invent that
16:21:21 <xkapastel> there are ways of dealing with knowledge bases that contain both `P` and `not P`
16:21:31 <xkapastel> the thing is, hewitt doesn't really describe how his works
16:21:33 <imode> right, but is that really all direct logic is.
16:21:46 <xkapastel> it's not clear what direct logic is, because it makes all sorts of grandiose claims
16:21:56 <xkapastel> for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems
16:22:05 <xkapastel> he claims the second one is actually incorrect
16:22:09 <imode> now that would be a fuckin' sight.
16:22:44 <xkapastel> iirc he claims direct logic is both sound and complete and capable of expressing properties of real numbers
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16:22:55 <imode> got any links to some of the more "focused" papers he's published?
16:22:58 <xkapastel> no
16:22:59 <imode> or, should I say, uploaded.
16:23:00 <xkapastel> lol
16:23:04 <imode> lmao.
16:23:20 <xkapastel> none of the stuff is focused, that's what i've been getting at
16:23:29 <xkapastel> if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting, even if he's wrong
16:23:38 <xkapastel> people have made grandiose claims and been wrong before, i don't hold that against them
16:23:45 <xkapastel> what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process
16:24:15 <xkapastel> it's just a tease, he claims to have this great idea which is almost certainly wrong but still interesting, but he'll never actually describe it to you
16:24:18 <imode> it's an attempt to delay the discovery that he's full of shit.
16:24:33 <imode> he apparently has quite the cult of personality.
16:25:32 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I'm going in.
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16:28:27 <imode> well, he's stated the abstract 4 times.
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16:29:04 <imode> my god there's more quotes than self-authored material.
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16:29:50 <imode> dave ackley has more coherence than this guy.
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16:36:49 <imode> okay, so he walked through how to derive inconsistency using a catch-22. he then shows the same derivations in almost exactly the same notation (only THIS TIME he's writing `catch-22` on everything) with little to no changes, other than he doesn't discard the contradiction.
16:37:34 <imode> he's restated the abstract another 10 times.
16:42:58 <imode> 35 pages down, and I wish I was kidding but these pages are so short.
16:44:05 <imode> there is a god damn quote on every page.
16:45:29 <imode> okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper, and now we're at the appendix. "Details of Direct Logic".
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16:47:30 <imode> "you can't parse real numbers." thank you, carl, I didn't know that.
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16:49:00 <imode> he appears to be constructing some kind of meta-logic that actually differentiates between different kinds of logical objects. you can reason over types, booleans, natural numbers, propositions, proofs, and theories.. okay, that's higher-order logic.
16:49:29 <imode> I forgot sentences in there.
16:50:29 <imode> meaning you can reason about the actual formulas, the string forms of said formulas, and some indirect references to other formulas.
16:50:48 <imode> this man likes his unicode.
16:51:17 <imode> there are seperate inference rules for the different types.
16:54:10 <imode> and a few pages later, there's nothing actually addressing the concept of inconsistency.
16:56:20 <imode> he strikes me as a sort of George Spencer Brown figure.
16:57:45 <imode> xkapastel: you were right, that was incredibly... unhinged. I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao) but I never expected it to come from a "well-cited" source like Hewitt.
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17:26:31 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
17:27:12 <arseniiv> an imperfection-rich thing about cursive
17:27:33 <arseniiv> hope it’s more useful than harmful :D
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19:07:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57267&oldid=57093 * DMC * (+35)
19:16:14 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57268&oldid=54961 * DMC * (+36) /* Examples */
19:20:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cmax521 * New user account
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19:22:54 <wob_jonas> imode: "that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines." => I hope it's not just a cheap marketing shot where he later proves that they're actually equivalent to turing machines with a random source
19:23:23 <wob_jonas> becuse these days we tend to think those are probably equivalent
19:25:08 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up" => ugly
19:25:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57269&oldid=57135 * Cmax521 * (+142) /* Introductions */
19:25:54 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it / but all he does is write ms word docs" => so there's no interpreter, not even a partial one?
19:25:55 <wob_jonas> wow
19:26:32 <imode> yeah there's nothing of substance in anything he writes.
19:26:57 <imode> wob_jonas: his argument is "unbounded determinism" yields hypercomputation.
19:27:01 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems / he claims the second one is actually incorrect" => ah, it's getting worse
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19:27:37 <wob_jonas> imode: doesn't that mean that it's impossible to interpret on a turing-machine or subset then?
19:27:44 <imode> yes.
19:27:48 <wob_jonas> great
19:27:51 <imode> which is total bullshit.
19:27:53 <wob_jonas> so that's why he doesn't have an interpreter
19:28:04 <wob_jonas> at least that part is consistent
19:28:26 <imode> just because our machines are LBMs doesn't stop us from simulating TMs.
19:28:34 <imode> so that should be easy for him...
19:28:46 <imode> he's just a hack.
19:28:51 <wob_jonas> "if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting" => I have a better idea, we could just tell him some good references to read first instead, in his free time
19:28:59 <wob_jonas> what languages does he speak?
19:29:03 <imode> english.
19:29:06 <wob_jonas> maybe he can be educated if he gets good books
19:29:08 <wob_jonas> only?
19:29:26 <imode> seems to be.
19:29:36 <imode> he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image.
19:30:23 <wob_jonas> "what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process" => yes, so let's just ignore what he says and send him to read books
19:31:01 <wob_jonas> "he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image." => does he just make an autobiography page with no references, or does he also add reasonable references, like articles accepted by respected journals or something?
19:31:14 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACarl_Hewitt%2FArchive_2
19:31:21 <wob_jonas> also, I'd ask which language of wikipedia, but if he only reads English, then it's sort of obvious
19:31:34 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carl_Hewitt
19:31:45 <wob_jonas> ah, currently deleted. good
19:32:23 <imode> he's such a crank..
19:32:41 <wob_jonas> then it's not worth worrying about, at least as an esolanger, since the wikipedians already see the problem and delete his autobio article. I don't care if he writes some angry messages, people are good enough to ignore those.
19:33:04 <imode> he's uploaded to arxiv too.
19:33:08 <wob_jonas> you'd only have to worry if he managed to get his autobiography page contain the inflated claims and remain there.
19:33:10 <imode> if you read back I went over his paper.
19:33:34 <imode> I'd like to say it was a brief cursory reading but there wasn't much in there. the bibliography was half of it.
19:33:52 <imode> the real challenge for carl hewitt is to find a page that doesn't have a quote from somebody else on it.
19:33:58 <wob_jonas> imode: meh, so what. everyone knows arxiv can contain preprints, and that you can change the metadata later to indicate which journal has accepted the article, with a full reference, that people can then check in the journal
19:34:35 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I want you to read this.
19:34:40 <wob_jonas> if he uploads some nonsense to arxiv, I wouldn't worry about. if he spams arxiv, arxiv probably has a way to deal with it
19:34:46 <wob_jonas> imode: I really don't have the time, sorry
19:34:52 <wob_jonas> I can read the abstract
19:35:11 <imode> ohoho, if you can find the time, read it. it's worth your while.
19:35:14 <wob_jonas> jesus, that's not an abstract for an article. what's this, a full book?
19:35:25 <imode> it's 104 pages of pure unadulterated bullshit.
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> imode: certainly not today for the 104 pages. and I don't think I will ever find the time for that, sorry.
19:35:46 <imode> it's okay. half of them are the bibliography.
19:35:46 <int-e> wow, 102 revisions so far
19:36:21 <imode> (in reality, a third of them are. the other third are the actual paper, which is mostly quotes, and the appendices, which are also mostly quotes.)
19:37:52 <imode> int-e: I'd love to get a friggin' diff because I can't imagine anything of substance was changed.
19:37:59 <wob_jonas> imode: great, the abstract really seems to say that his model is uncomputable
19:38:59 <wob_jonas> imode: it's PDF-only, so diffing will almost certainly be difficult
19:39:07 <wob_jonas> he doesn't upload whatever was the source of the PDF
19:39:11 <imode> yeah.
19:39:43 <wob_jonas> "my god there's more quotes than self-authored material." => wow
19:40:44 <wob_jonas> "okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper" => that happens, but for a 104 page long paper it's unusual. but he has to source all those quotes he has, right?
19:41:07 <imode> yeah, that's my point.
19:41:19 <imode> the number of quotes is equal to the number of bibliography entries...
19:42:17 <wob_jonas> my record, out of a total of 4 scientific articles, not counting conference procedings and conference slides (for they usually don't have a full bibliography) is
19:43:27 <wob_jonas> an article with 53 references on 4 pages, plus 11 pages of body, plus a page for abstract and a title page. this is in the preprint, the journal's version has less whitespace around the title I think.
19:44:35 <wob_jonas> I'm too lazy to check the journal final version, but I think it also has close to 53 bibliographic references
19:44:56 <wob_jonas> it's formatted differently so the page numbers are entirely different
19:45:37 <wob_jonas> but it's a journal that I think exists printed, or at least is formatted as if it existed printed, so the formatting is compact with a small page and narrow margins and all that stuff
19:46:40 <wob_jonas> I don't recall, but I think they even do that age old nonsense where they forcibly put the paper author names as initial plus surname format, because THAT would take up too much space in a mathematical paper
19:47:00 <wob_jonas> (this isn't a physics/biology journal with 100+ member teams sending in articles)
19:47:10 <wob_jonas> and might reformat the bibliography too, I dunno
19:47:17 <wob_jonas> some journals are so backwards
19:47:18 <int-e> The argument that actors are more powerful than non-deterministic Turing machines is quite ridiculous to me. (I see no useful difference between a machine that is guaranteed to terminate but can take an arbitrary long time for that, and a machine that terminates with probability 1)
19:47:35 <wob_jonas> I might be mixing it up with another journal
19:48:34 <wob_jonas> int-e: there is probably no computational difference for decision problems (but not for problems that require a random output obviously), except possibly a polynomial overhead, but maths is very far from being able to prove that,
19:49:00 <wob_jonas> it's like a major result that might take quarter as much time or twice as much time as P!=NP from now
19:49:19 <wob_jonas> and that's just a guess
19:50:08 <int-e> "Mathematics self proves its own consistency." -- assuming completeness.
19:50:36 <imode> it's like hilbert, but on meth.
19:50:45 <wob_jonas> "I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao)" => wait what?
19:51:03 <imode> what do you take issue with with that statement.
19:51:11 <wob_jonas> Hofstadter barely wrote any crank mathematics, most of his book is fiction, and the maths part is not perfect but not crank either;
19:51:32 <imode> I regard him as a crank because like Hewitt he fails to produce anything of actual value.
19:51:43 <wob_jonas> and the time cube guy is a crank but I don't think he has any mathematics on his page, though I haven't read the whole page I admit;
19:51:58 <int-e> imode: you should give some credit to being substantially correct
19:51:59 <imode> a post on HN summarized my feelings on the book.
19:52:09 <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
19:52:20 <imode> https://blog.infinitenegativeutility.com/2018/7/why-i-dont-love-godel-escher-bach
19:52:38 <wob_jonas> imode: I'm not saying you should love the book. you can hate it. but it's not crank mathematics.
19:52:43 <wob_jonas> you can hate it for lots of other reasons
19:52:55 <imode> I suggest reading that if you want a synonymous opinion.
19:53:24 <wob_jonas> he might have crank philosophy, and most useless but mostly correct mathematics, and fiction, in the same book
19:53:57 <imode> I classify him as a crank because he doesn't bring anything of merit to the table, and what explanations he tries to give fall short of actually conveying anything useful.
19:54:16 <wob_jonas> if you want crank mathematics, I can give better examples. t'Hooft's physics stuff, Wolfram's physics stuff, both based on bad mathematics and physics
19:54:20 <wob_jonas> or do you not count physics?
19:54:25 <imode> ohoho I count physics.
19:54:30 <imode> wolfram's a nut.
19:54:32 <wob_jonas> imode: yes, he might be a crank, but not crank mathematics
19:54:44 <wob_jonas> imode: he has crank stuff and useless mathematics in the same book
19:54:58 <wob_jonas> and fiction that some of us actually find enjoyable
19:55:03 <wob_jonas> look, let me explain something
19:55:20 <imode> I'm surprised you take such offense.
19:55:52 <wob_jonas> in some universities, a small amount of people graduate but the university people knows that he's dangerous if he gets out in the outer world. this happens most often in medical university, but can happen in maths too.
19:56:03 <imode> it's not going to really change my view on hofstader.
19:56:29 <wob_jonas> in those cases, a good solution is to convince the guy to remain as a professor or researcher in the university or some other uni or research place, and pay him for not doing real world work.
19:56:39 <imode> and yes, I know of the "my supervisor's keeper" clause. ;)
19:57:05 <wob_jonas> the students and professors in the university quickly recognize that he's a crank professor, and take his lectures as a joke.
19:57:09 <Hooloovo0> the time cube guy does lots of math
19:57:24 <Hooloovo0> none of it is logical or makes any sense, but apparently he thought there was a proof in there?
19:57:32 <wob_jonas> that's not dangerous, because the students in the university aren't harmed much by having a useless class the don't attend and get an easy A
19:57:35 <imode> listen, you're just not living in 5D.
19:57:55 <int-e> I think "crank" is the wrong term, which I would like to reserve for people who invent their own crazy theories.
19:58:05 <imode> starting to think so too.
19:58:14 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, if the same person got out in the real world to patients, he would damage the health of many of his patients before the patient catches on that he's a bad doctor. some patient catches on, but some don't, or not quickly enough.
19:58:18 <imode> but it just feels like the right term.
19:58:46 <wob_jonas> this system doesn't catch everyone, and there are still bad doctors out there for various reasons, but some doctors are stopped this way.
19:59:01 <wob_jonas> they're paid from state tuition, like the crank doctor would be payed, so it's all the same.
19:59:26 <imode> so what's the overarching point tho.
19:59:28 <wob_jonas> imode: what's the 5D about? time cube?
19:59:32 <imode> yeah lmao.
19:59:37 <imode> was in response to Hooloovo0.
19:59:51 <wob_jonas> yeah, but I also claimed that he doesn't do maths
19:59:53 <Hooloovo0> http://web.archive.org/web/20070927220333/http://www.lib.hcu.edu.tw/journal/files/CAS/CAS0206.pdf
19:59:53 <wob_jonas> maybe I'm wrong
20:00:06 <Hooloovo0> is a kind of weird read
20:00:13 <wob_jonas> I didn't recognize any of what he did as maths, but maybe I'm not imaginative or haven't read enough crank math
20:00:25 <wob_jonas> it didn't seem to be intended as math to my eyes
20:00:34 <wob_jonas> not even as much as Wolfram's
20:00:44 <int-e> imode: And just to be clear and can totally understand hating his book(s)... I'm not sure I could read GEB these days. I liked it as a late teenager.
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20:01:37 <imode> I guess Hofstader shouldn't be classified as a crank.
20:01:44 <wob_jonas> I think I just saw it as all meaningless statements that are trying to motivate people to do something, that is, politics, although a rather bad attempt at that
20:01:51 <imode> just somebody who really shouldn't be that notable.
20:01:52 <imode> fake celebrity, I guess?
20:02:24 <wob_jonas> when a politician talks about global warming and what he wants to do about it, I don't think he's talking physics. I take it as talking politics, with physics jargon because that's what politicians do if it helps them.
20:03:14 <wob_jonas> my default is that politics talk is mostly meaningless, and I have to leave it to politologists to read everything and figure out what the guy will actually do,
20:04:01 <wob_jonas> and then either blog about that in a meaningful way, without the political talk nonsense, like saying that he believes if this politician is elected, he'll build more nuclear power plants, or whatever
20:04:48 <wob_jonas> and then he blogs about it, or publishes in politology journals if he feels like he needs grants, and tells it to journalists who generally distort the whole thing and tell it on news websites
20:05:06 <wob_jonas> and of course he can be factually wrong about his predictions, even consistently if he's a bad politologist
20:05:33 <imode> I'm gonna be honest, I've only skimmed the time cube guy's page.
20:05:36 <wob_jonas> but so what? my aim isn't to become a better politologist than the ones I can read if I really want to know who to elect or when to leave the country
20:05:58 <wob_jonas> imode: some years ago I read a few pages (it's text with huge font, mind you)
20:06:06 <wob_jonas> (I think I actually zoomed it out, rare with a webpage)
20:06:21 <wob_jonas> there's still a copy linked from wikipedia if you want
20:06:25 <wob_jonas> or an extract in the wisdome
20:06:32 <wob_jonas> `? time cube
20:06:32 <imode> lmao, I've had my fill of crank shit today.
20:06:33 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
20:06:56 <wob_jonas> admittedly, I wrote that, so it could be biased to what I want to imply about him
20:06:59 <imode> I want a shirt that says "Educated Stupid".
20:07:29 <wob_jonas> anyway, he's very bad even as a politician, and I don't think he managed to achieve anything other than making a meme
20:07:33 <shachaf> @quote lambda.cube
20:07:33 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
20:08:02 <wob_jonas> I don't think he got any of what he actually asks people to do in that, like killing your teachers or whatever it was
20:08:11 <wob_jonas> no, that wasn't it
20:08:13 <wob_jonas> um
20:08:13 <imode> like I said, you just need to step back into the fifth dimension.
20:08:22 <imode> all will make sense when things stop making sense.
20:09:17 <wob_jonas> uh, there are science fantasy films about the fifth dimension. there's even a really good one: the Phineas and Ferb movie (I'm not sure about its title)
20:09:25 <wob_jonas> I can look up the title if you care
20:09:27 <imode> it was a joke.
20:09:30 <wob_jonas> but you'll find it anyway
20:09:35 <wob_jonas> I know, but since it's a good film
20:09:37 <wob_jonas> only problem is
20:09:54 <wob_jonas> it's a better film if you watch enough of the show first to know the general setting and characters
20:10:06 <wob_jonas> so it's not a film I recommend watching first if you haven't yet watched the show
20:10:21 <wob_jonas> but if you have watched the show, even just like half a season of it, any random half a season, then it's good
20:11:04 <wob_jonas> like, you have to know who all the main characters are and their basic relationships, because in the film there isn't enough introduction and everything changes because of a catastrophe they have to fix
20:11:14 <wob_jonas> and it works MUCH better if you already know the original situation
20:11:31 <int-e> Dear Carl, just adding the modifier "Inconsistency-robust" to the names of the elements of a more or less standard sequent calculus does not make it paraconsistent. In particular, you have enough rules to prove p /\ -p |- q /\ -q.
20:11:33 <wob_jonas> but the TV series is good too, although not everyone is a target audience
20:11:35 * int-e has read enough.
20:11:49 <imode> int-e: that's exactly the conclusion I came to.
20:12:02 <imode> there's nothing of substance..
20:12:45 <wob_jonas> it's a show that doesn't take itself seriously, with not much logical consistency and much more emphasis on the character's motivations, and then just not caring if what they do makes sense even in a fantasy world,
20:13:28 <wob_jonas> sort of like Harry Potter or Star Wars, but much less serious time and much more jokes and whole episodes played for fun, while the character motivations are still consistent (except when they're mind-controlled etc)
20:14:03 <wob_jonas> but if you like those types of media, then I recommen Phineas & Ferb
20:14:32 <wob_jonas> I'm saying this in the wrong place
20:14:46 <wob_jonas> let me quickly copy-paste it to another forum where more people listen
20:15:22 <wob_jonas> actually, I should only copy it and make a blog post from it to its blog
20:15:35 <wob_jonas> some day
20:18:16 <int-e> imode: Actually I might still enjoy GEB. I just have to skip the formal parts :P
20:18:52 <int-e> The perfect record player plot was cute.
20:19:04 <imode> int-e: the problem is I have an implicit assumption going in: that all the romance talk is going to lead up to an eventual climax: some actual fucking.
20:19:10 <shachaf> int-e: Was it?
20:19:23 <int-e> shachaf: it ... resonated with me.
20:19:26 <shachaf> What about a record player that has two disassembly components, where each one can disassemble the other one?
20:19:38 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll read the GEB review, sorry. I've read it, I like it, and since I'm a mathematician I think I did realize that the mathematics part doesn't add anything I didn't know from better sources, and the DNA stuff was pure useless nonsense.
20:19:40 <shachaf> I felt like there were all sorts of reasonable objections that weren't raised.
20:19:54 <imode> hofstader just kinda tells you the shit he's gonna do you, and then dines-and-dashes.
20:20:29 <wob_jonas> imode: there is a climax. it's not fucking, and it's not anything you learn about science. it's a climax in the fiction parts, and a decent one at that.
20:20:38 <imode> shachaf: thank you. the point of an analogy is to draw direct comparisons as a gateway to knowledge.
20:20:48 <wob_jonas> not, like, what you get from your favourite fiction author, but still a decent one.
20:20:53 <int-e> `? quine
20:20:54 <HackEso> ​`? quine
20:21:02 <shachaf> `quote LAMBDA
20:21:02 <HackEso> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 494) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...
20:21:06 <imode> wob_jonas: if I wanted fiction I'd read fiction, not something masking itself as nonfiction.
20:21:07 <shachaf> hm
20:21:44 <wob_jonas> if you read it with the expectation that it will be like Smullyan's books, that teach you some actual mathematics in the climax, then it's a flop
20:21:49 <wob_jonas> but that shouldn't be your expectation
20:22:06 <imode> what should be my expectation of a book that tells me it's about the real world.
20:22:11 <wob_jonas> he's not Smullyan, he's just a long-time friend
20:22:25 <int-e> imode: well, obviously it depends
20:22:26 <wob_jonas> by the way RIP Smullyan, I'll be missing you
20:22:48 <imode> like, you can defend this all you want, it's not going to change the fact that it shouldn't be held up on a pedestal like it currently is.
20:23:00 <wob_jonas> imode: come on, half of it was dialogs that are obviously fantastic fiction. why'd you read it as non-fiction? was it the Smullyan expectation?
20:23:17 <wob_jonas> did you seriously expect that there's anyone else who's as good as Smullyan in the exact same genre?
20:23:31 <wob_jonas> didn't Smullyan's, you know, reputation get to you?
20:23:34 <imode> no, it's that dialogues are intended to expound on something.
20:23:40 <wob_jonas> if you read it with that expectation, I'm sorry
20:23:47 <wob_jonas> then I can understand you didn't like it
20:24:05 <imode> they're used as an investigative tool. and I don't feel Hofstader gave me any sort of conclusion.
20:24:10 <wob_jonas> imode: no, they were fun. that's how I read most fiction books too. it's rare that I can learn something from them.
20:24:12 <imode> other than talking lavishly about... a lot of nothing.
20:24:23 <imode> listen, you're trying to defend a book you like, I get that.
20:24:38 <imode> you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao.
20:24:51 <imode> sorry if you took offense to what I've been saying.
20:25:06 <wob_jonas> there's even clearly fiction books that do have a message (or Aesop if you want) but the message is one I don't like, yet I read the fiction book and actually enjoyed it, because I enjoyed the style and characters and decent writing, and ignored the message
20:26:39 <imode> my final thoughts are that you can't take a book parading itself as nonfiction and judge it as a work of fiction in order to praise what you think are good aspects about it in order to avoid negative judgements.
20:26:51 <imode> on that, afk.
20:27:00 <wob_jonas> the specific book that was most like that is Julie Bertagna, <i>Exodus</i>
20:28:02 <wob_jonas> "you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao" => ok, if you don't want to talk about it, I can stop. but sometimes, when I talk on the internet with people I actually know about works that one of us enjoyed more than the other,
20:28:36 <wob_jonas> and we tell what we liked and what we didn't, the end result is that I get to enjoy the work better, especially if I then re-read or rewatch the same work with the conversation in mind.
20:28:51 <wob_jonas> it doesn't always work, because sometimes the work still doesn't work for me (sorry for the pun)
20:29:16 <wob_jonas> I do this a lot for TV series episodes of My Little Pony: FIM, but I think it works for other fiction too, which is why I'm trying
20:29:22 <wob_jonas> if you don't want to listen, then I can stop
20:29:36 <wob_jonas> imode: ?
20:30:32 <wob_jonas> and I think it paraded itself as pop nonfiction at worst, and I already knew not to expect much from pop nonfiction by then,
20:31:18 <wob_jonas> because when I was young, I read a lot of children's pop nonfiction books, and I liked them, but when I grew up and learned about the world, I realized that most of those pop nonfiction books were actually really bad, if you take them at face value
20:31:36 <wob_jonas> most primary school textbooks also are, by the way
20:31:45 <wob_jonas> for similar reasons
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21:08:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh you’ve watched P & F too
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21:08:57 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: most of it
21:09:03 <wob_jonas> not all episodes
21:09:12 <wob_jonas> I'm missing some mostly from the later seasons
21:09:30 <wob_jonas> but there are a lot of good episodes I've watched three or more times
21:10:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: what does "too" mean? have you watched P & F? or is it that I watched practically all MLP and most of P & F too?
21:16:36 <arseniiv> BTW have anybody watched my vid?
21:18:47 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: have you watched P & F? => this one
21:22:35 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I haven't seen the link
21:22:40 <wob_jonas> can you please post the link again?
21:22:44 <arseniiv> also on ways of treating art: I had gained much when I started not to skip parts that seem boring. With good authors, it really pays later, I’d come to thing
21:23:05 <wob_jonas> I appreciate you training handwriting by the way. we need more online lectures on that.
21:23:10 <arseniiv> absoutely can, here it is: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
21:23:37 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I know. I love typography and calligraphy, both restricted to the recent European subset
21:23:44 <arseniiv> thank you, but you better watch it first, I’m afraid it’s too messy
21:24:19 <wob_jonas> sure, I'm thanking the attempt in first place. if you fail, it might still push others to make a better video if I tell them that this is the best you could get.
21:25:28 <wob_jonas> let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Illustrations_to_J%C3%A1nos_Arany%27s_ballads_by_Mih%C3%A1ly_Zichy
21:25:55 <wob_jonas> (you can also buy it on dead tree if you're in Hungary)
21:26:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh, I have a friend who for some time does calligraphy as a hobby, it’s interesting, and he even promised to write a page of text from Summa Logicae somewhere in the future :)
21:26:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
21:27:19 <wob_jonas> Summa Logicae => in what language is that?
21:28:06 <wob_jonas> I am not interested in learning calligraphy myself anymore, I am more interested in doing typography myself, it's just that I appreciate both
21:28:20 <wob_jonas> I just want to learn the basics of handwriting in Russian for the reasons I had told you
21:28:42 <wob_jonas> I know the basics of Hungarian handwriting
21:29:27 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály => ah, thanks! Really appeals to the eyes, and I haven’t seen this style before. I’ll show these to my friend
21:29:45 <arseniiv> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? => as you wish
21:30:31 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online
21:30:48 <wob_jonas> I don't know of any other pieces of calligraphy he's done available online though.
21:30:50 <arseniiv> in what language is that? => latin, it’s by William [of] Ockham
21:31:01 <wob_jonas> ok
21:33:23 <wob_jonas> I'd really have liked if he added "A hamis tanú" and "A kép-mutogató" to that series, but alas, he didn't, and he's dead since 1906.
21:33:35 <arseniiv> is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online => I didn’t concentrated on drawings yet, but yes they at least match the handwriting
21:34:50 <wob_jonas> The best we could get is to commission a really good painter-forger and a really good calligrapher-forger to make those imitating his style, but such a comission would cost more than a car in my estimate, and I don't think there'd be enough backers on a crowdforging site and I don't have the money myself, so I haven't even tried to ask a price quot
21:34:50 <wob_jonas> e.
21:36:10 <wob_jonas> they at least match the handwriting => yes, it's by the same hand, and from the same volumes composed together. I think he actually drew the letters overlapping the images on the original.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and I think the original 1989 volume wasn't even made with the easy modern photographic technique that can copy basically any drawing in high fidelity, he had to do it the hard way, with whatever the one of the other two methods were for this than etching back then (it's not etching)
21:38:00 <arseniiv> oh
21:38:35 <wob_jonas> the modern reprint, of course, uses digital photography and digital printing, but since it's in a high enough quality (you can see the printed dot pattern if you zoom in, I scanned in 600 dpi to avoid most of the Moiré), I don't mind
21:39:59 <wob_jonas> I could get on-site access to the original edition in libraries, and in fact had seen two of the four volumes earlier, but it would be hard and expensive to get them to photograph it (it's an old book so libraries won't scan, they'll only photograph),
21:41:04 <wob_jonas> I chose the cheap solution and bought a throwaway copy of the reprint, I destroyed it with my heart bleading on destroying a copy of such a beautiful book while I cut open the binding and actually cut into many pages during.
21:41:31 <arseniiv> (the last couple of minutes I think I think shallowly. You tell interesting things and I can’t properly respond to them)
21:41:37 <wob_jonas> In retrospect, most of that wouldn't have been necessary, I would only have had to remove the outer hard cover to be able to scan, but I didn't realize that back then.
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> Would have destroyed the book anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the end.
21:42:31 <arseniiv> this is
21:42:45 <wob_jonas> It's not entirely destroyed, since that would have made scanning impossible, all the single pages are still intact, so I can read it carefully at home.
21:43:07 <wob_jonas> And if that weren't so, I could buy a new copy. The reprint is cheap (around 6000 HUF) for what it's worth.
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21:43:45 <wob_jonas> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise.
21:43:54 <arseniiv> (I can’t write properly, sorry)
21:44:06 <arseniiv> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise. => totally agree
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> I hope some of them will buy a copy of the reprint so they have a print copy, thus supporting the publisher to whom I owe a big thanks for reprinting this.
21:44:52 <arseniiv> maybe I should scan something thin and softcover if I find out it’s rare and interesting
21:45:05 <wob_jonas> The reprint is from 2016, so they actually did the expensive digitizing process in a much more professional way then I could have payed for. I would not have done that.
21:45:47 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I have suggestions. Where do you live?
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> There are two Jules Verne books with beautiful illustrations by Jules-Descartes Férat (1829–1906) engraved by Charles Barbant (1844—1922)
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> They're in public domain and there are reprint version available, at least in Hungary, usually together with the bad old public domain translations.
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21:48:13 <wob_jonas> There are low resolution scans of them online already, but no good high res ones.
21:48:23 <wob_jonas> I'm working on it, but if you want to speed it up, I'd appreciate it.
21:48:46 <wob_jonas> The books aren't technically thin, but if you only scan the etchings, not the text, then it's not many pages.
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21:49:08 <wob_jonas> You'll need a decent scanner. I used a copy shop one, which isn't perfect, but is cheap.
21:49:41 <wob_jonas> There's a professional service for this, but I don't want to cough the money up for that yet, except for a few very valuable family photos that they can scan better than I could.
21:50:07 <wob_jonas> (I'm also scanning family photos for my family, not for publishing. Different project, but can do with same trip sometimes.)
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> There's no need to scan the text of any Verne, most public domain translations and all originals are already not only scanned but digitized to text and proofread and published.
21:51:29 <wob_jonas> The exception were if any happened to go out of copyright around now, but I don't know of any such translation.
21:52:09 <arseniiv> hm, I didn’t think that far. I’m in Russia in a more or less big city, and for these books it’s possible to be in the library somewhere near (though I doubt it, maybe in Moscow or St. Petersburg, I’m far from these), but I can’t say I’m into libraries and I had never scanned a book
21:52:39 <wob_jonas> If you make anything publishable and in public domain, please either publish to Wikimedia Commons, or ping me or them after you publish so I can upload it to there.
21:52:53 <wob_jonas> I can help in the uploading and metadata on Commons if you want.
21:53:16 <wob_jonas> Also, if you can, ping me in advance if you do it with this specific case, so we don't do redundant work.
21:53:53 <wob_jonas> But only do this if it actually causes you pleasure. Nobody will compensate you by money for this, unless you somehow solve that yourself.
21:54:04 <wob_jonas> And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it.
21:54:09 <wob_jonas> Not every art is your style.
21:54:36 <wob_jonas> This one is just my favourite etcher.
21:55:19 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: okay! I doubt I could help with this case, but thanks for both offers
21:55:32 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it. => agree
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> Commons already has a copy of all the low res scans by http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , a site that honors Jules Verne's books *original* illustrations (rather than the crap some publishers put in in 2050 to 2000, when the photographing tech wasn't yet cheap or possible at all, or the original drawing wasn't yet out of copyright, and they couldn't
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> get their hands on the original etch master plates.
21:56:57 <wob_jonas> I think the old translations around 1900 actually borrowed the original plates of etching, which is real impressive.
21:57:20 <wob_jonas> By the way, some of them, including the one I already published, uses the original plates but messed up the printing process, so the drawings come out too dark and some details are invisible.
21:58:00 <wob_jonas> I have scans of half of the drawings of this same book (Indes Noires) from another edition (the Szegő György translation) waiting on my hard drive to edit and publish.
21:58:38 <wob_jonas> Also, I should really make more backups of my hard disk, although I think I have a single backup of those scans.
21:59:02 <wob_jonas> Ok, I should finish ranting and watch that video like I promised.
21:59:09 <arseniiv> :)
21:59:56 <wob_jonas> But really, look at http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , you might find an illustrator and etcher whose style you prefer over Jules-Descartes Férat and Charles Barbant
22:00:05 <wob_jonas> I can't claim that they're objectively the best
22:00:19 <arseniiv> it’s very nice to read your “ranting”, I should say
22:00:43 <wob_jonas> Yes, but I never get to watch the video. It's already past midnight and I should work tomorrow and I'm already on like -4 hours sleep.
22:00:46 <wob_jonas> maybe -6 hours.
22:01:02 <arseniiv> maybe you expect too much of silly me, though :D
22:01:05 <wob_jonas> And I wanted to do other things today too, but don't we always?
22:01:17 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I want to give feedback.
22:01:21 <wob_jonas> Repeat my old question:
22:01:42 <wob_jonas> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
22:01:58 <arseniiv> as I said, as you wish :)
22:02:16 <wob_jonas> Is there supposed to be any sound?
22:02:26 <arseniiv> no
22:03:25 <arseniiv> also, it’s almost half a hour, and I’m personally going to sleep, so you could technically watch it tomorrow, I absolutely don’t mind
22:04:14 <arseniiv> no need to hurry
22:04:27 <wob_jonas> you can logread
22:04:32 <wob_jonas> I'm riled up now
22:04:34 <arseniiv> and good night!
22:04:42 <arseniiv> yeah, I’ll definitely read
22:04:55 <wob_jonas> "privet!" I think. I'm not sure that's a p, but a p would make sense.
22:05:06 <arseniiv> correct
22:05:15 <arseniiv> well, see you later
22:05:42 <wob_jonas> (I have to learn to read this too, if I want to write it for myself.)
22:08:26 <wob_jonas> "Aplê..." let me get those drawings from yesterday
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22:09:59 <wob_jonas> that looks more like a "p" though. what's the deal with the "p" in "privet!"?
22:11:58 <int-e> what do you mean by "what's the deal" with the "п" in "привет!"?
22:12:09 <wob_jonas> ah, "Aplêičau"
22:12:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out
22:12:51 <wob_jonas> so I think there's something I don't understand there.
22:13:00 <wob_jonas> It doesn't look like a "P" either.
22:13:13 <int-e> (I would think it's derived from π not p)
22:13:27 <wob_jonas> sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily
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22:13:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's a normal shaped p right in "Aplêičau" on the next slide
22:13:58 <int-e> same for the russian Р vs grrek Ρ.
22:14:07 <int-e> *greek
22:14:22 * int-e isn't going to watch any video now.
22:14:25 <wob_jonas> yes yes, I know. The russian r looks somewhat like the latin p. I know that.
22:15:32 <wob_jonas> The context is, I know the russian alphabet, I just want to learn how to handwrite it, because it annoys me that I can't jot down russian names in notes, and I'm using ISO-9 transcription handwritten instead, which works but hurts me inside.
22:16:02 <wob_jonas> And arseniiv volunteered to teach the handwriting he learned, because he agreed there are no good enough tutorials on the internet.
22:16:24 <wob_jonas> I don't expect his video to be perfect, but he won't just leave a bad letter in there.
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> He said he edits the video, so he would have replaced any obviously bad parts, so I refuse that explanation.
22:17:21 <wob_jonas> Ah no, it's "Aplêjčau", you write the brevis after the rest, I paused too soon. That even sounds more like a word.
22:17:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: does that make sense?
22:18:31 <int-e> the "cursive" column from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet matches what I remember.\
22:18:47 <int-e> I have no clue what "Aplêjčau" is.
22:19:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: ar' gave better links yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE/ https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
22:19:26 <wob_jonas> both are images in HTML
22:19:30 <wob_jonas> or pure images
22:19:32 <wob_jonas> I dunno
22:19:33 <wob_jonas> not videos
22:19:43 <wob_jonas> my guess is Appalachian mountains, in America
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> but that's just a guess, I didn't check a dictionary
22:19:57 <wob_jonas> I don't care
22:20:01 <int-e> STUPID Firefox... when I make a selection in my terminal, please follow X standards and forget your own selection so that I can actually paste what I marked?!?!
22:20:39 <wob_jonas> (Referencing the drawings for the "B" word too.)
22:21:52 <wob_jonas> "Betel'gejze" I think
22:22:31 <wob_jonas> nice mousewriting, I couldn't draw such a continuous line with a mouse
22:22:51 <wob_jonas> or very nice video editing to hide the jumps
22:24:55 <wob_jonas> "Veneciâ"
22:26:14 <wob_jonas> "Gimalai" more mountains, although this one has a strange spelling, ending in "ai"
22:27:07 <wob_jonas> "Daniâ"
22:28:26 <wob_jonas> "Enisej" the river in Russia, right?
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22:30:20 <Sgeo_> shachaf, there will be no olist this past Monday, but there will be one earlier today.
22:31:22 <wob_jonas> "Ëtunžejt" and you write the diaresis and the brevis in the Right^{TM} order, not the French order. good. they haven't infected your education with that nonsense yet.
22:32:40 <wob_jonas> "Ženeva"
22:33:07 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_Lei_Chau is Аплєйчау
22:33:13 * int-e shrugs
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22:33:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: ok
22:34:50 <wob_jonas> "Zanzibar", we're at the capital letters that are hard to write now.
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22:35:43 <wob_jonas> (I don't mean "I" of course. that's an easy one.)
22:36:23 <wob_jonas> "Iguasu" perhaps?
22:37:01 <wob_jonas> (well, for me that is, because it's the same as a latin "U" would be in this style)
22:40:12 <wob_jonas> "Jiglava" it looks like
22:40:28 <wob_jonas> but I could be confusing letters of course
22:41:26 <wob_jonas> another hard letter. "Kël'n"
22:43:24 <wob_jonas> another hard one (it looks easy, but I'm sure it's hard to write in a way that I can read it unambiguously too) "Labraziâ" wait, you lifted your pen during that "r" I think
22:43:44 <wob_jonas> we'll see later in the video if that's how "r" is supposed to work, I guess
22:45:56 <wob_jonas> "Merkurij" and I think this time you didn't lift your pen during either "r", but you did during "k", which looks more reasonable. Also, that's a scary example name to me.
22:46:44 <wob_jonas> ah yes. the lower case "n" does look hard, good thing you wrote it three times here.
22:47:17 <wob_jonas> "Nil" three letters? I feel shortcharged for my no money :-)
22:48:07 <wob_jonas> Is the first lowercase "o" the final form?
22:49:18 <wob_jonas> if so, that's interesting, in Hungarian if I write proper cursive, I always use the second form for a top connection or final, and an entirely different form of "o" for the low connection
22:49:47 <wob_jonas> so not even "o" is the same in russian and latin? no, I can't believe that. it's probably just different in different styles of cursive.
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22:50:42 <wob_jonas> "Oblako Oorta"
22:51:05 <wob_jonas> (placenames can be strange)
22:51:31 <wob_jonas> "Palau" easy
22:51:41 <wob_jonas> well, easy because your mousewriting is really good
22:52:31 <wob_jonas> I won't be able to read a word of my own handwriting at first, I think, so there's a cost for the ideal
22:53:01 <wob_jonas> I might have to do multiple tries of the same word each time and an ISO-9 transcription too so I can read it back
22:53:20 <wob_jonas> which is ugly, but a step towards the goal I'll never reach
22:53:43 <wob_jonas> since I intend to spend my practice time on cubing, not russian writing
22:53:47 <wob_jonas> most of it at least
22:55:06 <wob_jonas> "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one
22:56:13 <wob_jonas> "Salnce" I think.
22:56:25 <wob_jonas> Ok, I'll stop the video here and continue to watch the rest some other time
22:56:28 <wob_jonas> because it's too late
22:56:35 <wob_jonas> but it's nice so far
22:57:02 <wob_jonas> I'll probably have to rewatch it too after I watch the whole thing, to notice more stuff about the letters
22:57:52 <wob_jonas> thank you very much so far, aarseniv (and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e)
22:58:57 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rodinia_reconstruction.jpg
22:59:46 <wob_jonas> in case you can't read ISO-9, which is quite possible since you need that stuff to find books or get information about books in library catalogs in Hungary and many other countries where library catalogs use latin letter transcriptions for literally everything
23:00:48 <wob_jonas> it's a bit strange, because in Hungary, probably more people could read the printed cyrillic than the ISO-9 transcription, but perhaps it's a tradition from when they don't have russian typewriters for library catalog slips
23:01:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: not sure whether this is directed at me, but the ISO-9 is really confusing to me
23:01:24 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, that's directed at aarseniv mostly
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23:02:59 <wob_jonas> so, aarseniv (but int-e too if you care), if you can't read ISO-9, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 has a full table comprising the cyrillic letters in most languages that use them, and
23:04:35 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian#Transliteration_table has a table for Russian alphabet only (plus obsolate letters in bottom rows), look at the column with heading "ISO9:1995; GOST 2002(A)"
23:04:47 <wob_jonas> you want this second one for the Russian I type
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> note that if "Я" is transliterated anything but "Â" then you're looking at the wrong column. That one is very important for the library catalogs, and appears in my transcripts too obviously
23:07:11 <wob_jonas> It is good that libraries use this sane system, because the ones that use "Ja" for that and "j" and "a" for other letters are a bit annoying to say the least, and so are the ones that use "ya" and "y" and "a" respectively
23:08:20 <wob_jonas> Except obviously there have to be standards for printing these passports that always have your name in ascii letters, but that's not what a library catalog transcription aims for
23:12:40 <wob_jonas> Stupid anecdote: there are also cyrillization systems, to transcribe latin to a local alphabet. When I was in Macedonia, back before they were full EU members so they had a bit stricter rules for visitors, I changed cash from I don't know what currency to the local currency.
23:14:27 <wob_jonas> The cash converting agent was required to give me a printed receipt that includes my name as it appears in the passport. My name has a Hungarian "zs", which he transcribed to macedonian as "ЗС", which was probably by the transcription rules he used, but looked riddiculous to me.
23:14:48 <wob_jonas> It obviously doesn't matter what he writes to the receipt, which is why I said it was a stupid anecdote.
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23:15:31 <wob_jonas> ISO-9 is Russian-centric, so Russian transcribed with it actually looks relatively good, but most other languages transcribed with ISO-9 look horrible.
23:16:25 <wob_jonas> Luckily in library book catalogs in *Hungary*, it is much more common to find Russian names or titles than names or titles from other languages, because of the effects of the Soviet Union suppressing a lot of local languages,
23:17:57 <wob_jonas> Very rarely you can find books in Ukranian or Croatian or Belarussian, with title presumably in those languages, but I don't look at the title much so it doesn't matter. I have yet to see a Macedonian one.
23:18:46 <wob_jonas> I think I've also seen ones marked as Serbo-Croatian.
23:19:16 <wob_jonas> I think Serbian is usually not transcribed by ISO-9, but by serbian latin, which happen to coincide in all except one letter the serbian "j"
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23:19:44 <wob_jonas> um no, they don't coincide of course
23:19:55 <wob_jonas> but they never clash other than at the serbian "j"
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23:20:43 <wob_jonas> but the clash is only a theoretical problem, and not being able to automatically decide which words are transcriptions from what language is a much more serious theoretical problem
23:20:46 <wob_jonas> good night now
23:21:27 <wob_jonas> (or, technically, from which group of languages using the same transcription system, including identity for all latin letter languages as the transcription system)
23:22:14 <wob_jonas> And if Chinese or Japanese transcription is involved, you're in even more trouble
23:22:32 <wob_jonas> You can't even automatically untranscribe that, although there are pretty good approximation algorithms now
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Apart from transcribing between different countries of kanji, I have heard of only two transcription systems that promise to transcribe most Japanese texts to a limited alphabet,
23:25:34 <wob_jonas> and both are systems for extended Japanese braille methods for transcribing kanji, and one I've only seen as vague descriptions, for the other I've seen somewhat extended descriptions (I never sought a full list) and it seems nicely done except that it's REALLY fucking crowded with practically zero redundancy
23:26:36 <wob_jonas> It translates to backwards 8-point braille, where the two extra dots are *above* the normal six dots, which I don't think is used anywhere other than this one system, and doesn't even have a Unicode encoding.
23:27:19 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_kanji by the way
23:27:53 <wob_jonas> Uses the extra upper two dots only to mark kanji, with the upper left set at the first cell that encodes a kanji and the upper right set for the last cell.
23:28:48 <wob_jonas> Each kanji has at most one encoding (luckily) which can be one cell, two cells, three cells, I don't know the upper limit, tries to be somewhat mnemonic, but the one and two cell spaces are REALLY crowded, giving no redundancy in kanji
23:31:46 <wob_jonas> and normal braille kanji is already so crowded that literally all 64 possible six-point cells are used to mean something, and even this way it needs extra cells to mark dakuten and switches to and from katakana and to arabic digits and to romaji
23:32:08 <wob_jonas> and there's some even more horrible hacks that I think I erased from my memory
23:32:47 <wob_jonas> yet this system, if it actually lives up to its promises, would be a very good base for a faithful transcription system of Japanese to latin script (with punctuations)
23:33:06 <wob_jonas> but as far as I know, there is no such transcription system
23:33:53 <wob_jonas> it could also be used as base for a transcription system from Japanese to a funny script that's made of kana-only plus overbars for indicating kana that stand for kanji, plus some punctuation
23:34:55 <wob_jonas> the kana part and simple japanese punctuation would be identity-transformed, and the kanji transcription could be typed on a keyboard or transmitted through morse code or signal flags or teletype or
23:36:00 <wob_jonas> with an automatic transcription, make it easier for European people to read digital Japanese texts with kanji or handwrite them without having to learn the calligraphy, although that one is probably so taboo that nobody would attempt to popularize it
23:36:07 <wob_jonas> well, not in this century at least
23:36:14 <wob_jonas> still, I can dream, right?
23:37:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, transcribing kanji for the blind is a noble goal, but for all the rest they would never use such a system now
23:37:38 <wob_jonas> perhaps in a steampunk level technology fantasy world they would have developped such a system
23:38:36 <wob_jonas> because no teletypes could handle kanji directly, but the teletype operator can look up kanji in a table (that he eventually learns by heart since it's mnemonic) and transmit text with kanji faithfully, which is better than writing all telex messages with kana only
23:39:00 <wob_jonas> oh well, I said good night like a long time ago
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