←2018-07-12 2018-07-13 2018-07-14→ ↑2018 ↑all
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00:09:49 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56663&oldid=56457 * DMC * (+0)
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00:21:54 <tswett> Can there be two different groups G1 and G2 so that the direct products G1 * G1 and G2 * G2 are isomorphic?
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01:02:30 <tswett> My hobby: trying to do theorem proving in languages that aren't suited for it at all.
01:02:43 <tswett> Here's my definition of a monoid in C#: https://lpaste.net/5400411184144842752
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03:40:11 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56664&oldid=56645 * A * (+34) /* See also */
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09:00:18 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56665&oldid=56646 * A * (+98) /* Brainloller */
09:02:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56666&oldid=56665 * A * (-38) /* Brainloller */
09:03:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]"
09:03:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Helloworld.gif]]"
09:04:50 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56669&oldid=56666 * A * (+9) /* Brainloller */
09:05:42 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56670&oldid=56669 * A * (+39) /* Brainloller */
09:12:20 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56671&oldid=45244 * A * (+66) /* Example */
09:13:13 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56672&oldid=56671 * A * (-66) /* Example */
09:13:31 <esowiki> [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56673&oldid=56672 * A * (+66) /* Example */
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09:53:10 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56674&oldid=56284 * A * (+105) /* Stuck? We'll try again */
09:56:40 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56675&oldid=56674 * A * (+199) /* Good news */
09:59:14 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56676&oldid=56675 * A * (+178) /* Step 2 */
10:03:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56677&oldid=17477 * A * (+98) /* Input/Output */
10:05:22 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56678&oldid=56676 * A * (+36) /* Step 4 */
10:06:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56679&oldid=56677 * A * (+154) /* Input/Output */
10:11:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56680&oldid=56679 * A * (+249) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:13:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56681&oldid=56680 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:15:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56682&oldid=56681 * A * (-49) /* Inverse instruction? */
10:17:51 <shachaf> `ysaclist 78
10:17:52 <HackEso> ysaclist 78: boily shachaf
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10:28:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56683&oldid=56682 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */
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10:53:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wow. judging from those edits, A is definitely Iamcalledbob's sock.
10:53:36 <wob_jonas> (which is what ais523 said too, I know, I'm just saying that now I'm certain of it too)
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12:56:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56684&oldid=56477 * Ais523 * (+391) more about TCness
12:58:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]": Duplicated file: this is the unused copy out of the two; both were uploaded by the same user at about the same time
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13:00:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56685&oldid=56683 * Ais523 * (+358) /* Input determination */ that's , not TC
13:08:31 <Sgeo> `olist 1126
13:08:32 <HackEso> olist 1126: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
13:12:15 <wob_jonas> o
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13:32:27 <wob_jonas> oh! the people on the forums actually predicted this twist from a hidden hint the Giant gave some strips ago
13:33:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: now that A is editing [[BF instruction minimalization]], it's even more obvious that he's Iamcalledbob's sock.
13:33:22 <ais523> yes
13:33:39 <ais523> or, not so much a sock as someone who keeps bouncing their main around
13:35:08 <wob_jonas> yeah
13:36:01 <ais523> they seem to be learning now, though
13:36:16 <ais523> like, if you repeatedly point out their misconceptions about TCness they seem to fix them for future edits…
13:36:40 <ais523> and someone throwing out that many ideas is useful just because occasionally they give inspiration
13:37:23 <wob_jonas> and he waited until after his ban expired to create a new user
13:37:31 <wob_jonas> both times, I think
13:38:50 <wob_jonas> let me see, did he learn to actually follow the clear instructions in [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] for the later accounts?
13:39:26 <ais523> he discovered he could create multiple accounts a while back and created and introduced like four of them (admitting who he was), then never used him
13:39:30 <ais523> *never used them
13:39:42 <ais523> A and Asdf came later without any /admitted/ link to the original account, but it's obvious
13:40:12 <Taneb> What's he trying to achieve?
13:40:53 <ais523> he's just someone with more enthusiasm than knowledge, I think
13:40:59 <ais523> normally that ends up manifesting as one BF derivative
13:41:10 <wob_jonas> Apparently partially. Never followed 'sign your name by writing in "~~~~" (without quotes),' but at least follows 'write a short description (one or two sentences is enough) about what brings you to this wiki' for some of the later accounts
13:41:27 <ais523> in this case it ended up manifesting as like twenty derivatives of random languages, plus a very optimistic view on TCness
13:41:29 <int-e> ais523: how are you typing /your/ wiki signature btw? (the one with the U and C links)
13:41:45 <ais523> int-e: three tildes and a lot of substed templates
13:41:48 <Taneb> ais523: it seems a very weird way to go about it
13:42:06 <wob_jonas> int-e: there's a setting in [[Special:Preferences]] to change what the name part of three/four tildes expands to
13:42:10 <ais523> the date's in the signature itself as {{subst:CURRENTDAY}} and friends
13:42:28 <ais523> I partially think it might be a troll, but if so it's a /really good/ troll
13:42:36 <ais523> very few people try to promote their language by renaming [[Main Page]], after all
13:42:50 <int-e> wob_jonas: ah
13:42:55 <wob_jonas> it's apparently very fashionable on some mediawikis to modify that to include a link to the talk page and some vanity stuff, often making it hard to tell your actual username
13:43:15 <wob_jonas> so much that on hu.wikipedia someone explicitly asked me to put a link to my talk page into my signature, so I eventually did
13:43:36 <int-e> (I do not intend to imitate it, but I was curious how it is done.)
13:43:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, after the userbox wars, there wasn't much appetite for enforcing minor signature variations
13:43:51 <ais523> *minor signature violations
13:44:23 <wob_jonas> on other wikis I just make it expand to "– [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]]" so I don't have to type "-- ~~~~" but only "~~~~"
13:45:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, as long as it still clearly links to the user page or talk page of the right user, and isn't horrible, we just allow anything in sigs
13:46:14 <wob_jonas> still much better than the fashion on some phpbb-based forums where some people have huge multiline sigs and avatars that often take up more screen space than their actual post.
13:46:46 <ais523> you can just turn those off
13:46:51 <wob_jonas> apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text
13:47:14 <ais523> one phpBB-based forum I'm on autocollapses signatures that are longer than three or four lines of <small> text, IIRC
13:47:23 <ais523> but you can expand them to see the whole thing
13:47:29 <ais523> or turn them off altogether in your options
13:48:00 <arseniiv> apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text => (rofl)
13:48:36 <arseniiv> oh I misread as “should”
13:49:02 <wob_jonas> ah yes, the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text _before expanding spoiler tags_
13:49:51 <arseniiv> it’s a shame I rarely visit these forums)
13:50:02 <wob_jonas> DMM's Irregular forum has much stricter rules. no images in posts, ever. that's actually a good rule. I hate how on most phpbb forums any poster can just embed any off-site image and track who loads their post how many times.
13:50:38 <wob_jonas> the only think phpbb itself enforces is that post look ugly and the avatar size is capped.
13:50:57 <arseniiv> :D
13:51:32 <ais523> phpBB often has issues matching tags
13:51:48 <ais523> it's fairly frequent to accidentally make a post that closes more tags than it opens and causes the rest of the page to break out of its container…
13:52:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. doesn't allow links to urls with parenthesis in them. quite a similar bug than on Stack Exchange's markdown formatter, but at least there in posts you can work it around, on phpbb you can't
13:52:37 <arseniiv> btw are there esolangs modeling simething like a cell colony? to compute, you have to grow a colony from one primordial cell you are only free to “program” beforehand
13:53:14 <wob_jonas> oh, closes more tags than it opens? I remember back when perlmonks allowed that. it's still a viewer user's setting whether to enforce correct tag nesting, but defaults to yes.
13:54:16 <ais523> arseniiv: hmm, that sort of computation is normally done in 2D cellular automata but they tend to need very big initial states to be TC, which is not what you're looking for at all
13:54:43 <ais523> perhaps some of the 2D automata with lots of colors that support programmable self-replicators are close to what you want
13:55:30 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: hmm. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering requires you to build up programs from the few cards you have, and in each step you can only compose one card onto a slot from left or right and putting the composition result back in the slot, but this allows building up anything because at least one card represents a function that can
13:55:30 <wob_jonas> read the value of other slots
13:55:49 <arseniiv> I tampered with this idea once a week ago, using “genes” and “molecules” they produce, and a quirky cell division mechanism (neighboring cell chains shift, if not enough space), but in the end it felt not so cool so I abandoned it
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14:00:51 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: interesting game there, albeit a hard one for me
14:01:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it's hard for everyone. ICFP contests get harder and harder every year, it seems.
14:01:45 <arseniiv> :D
14:02:32 <wob_jonas> back in the old days the tasks were simple enough that a lone programmer had a chance to win, these days tasks involve so many complicated things that they require a team of three or four programmers who already know how to form an effective team
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14:04:04 <Taneb> Didn't a lone programmer win last year?
14:04:59 <wob_jonas> I dunno
14:05:36 <Taneb> I can't enter this year :(
14:06:35 <int-e> Taneb: yes, a lone C++ programmer won
14:07:40 <ais523> when does the challenge start?
14:07:44 <ais523> I probably won't participate
14:08:05 <ais523> I was on the fence about a fairly recent previous challenge (the one where you had to claim edges to build a network), and once the twists started was very glad I didn't compete
14:08:05 <int-e> https://icfpcontest2018.github.io/
14:08:18 <int-e> July 20th to 23rd
14:08:25 <ais523> this time next week
14:08:52 <int-e> 16:00 UITC, hmm
14:09:01 <int-e> UTC even
14:09:23 <int-e> (it's now 14:10 UTC)
14:10:11 <int-e> Anyway my plan is to look at it and not actually participate... like almost every year.
14:10:45 <int-e> It's kind of mean to schedule it into the middle of FLoC.
14:10:48 <int-e> hmm
14:10:55 <int-e> wait, no. It's end of FLoC.
14:18:11 <wob_jonas> int-e: mine too
14:18:46 <wob_jonas> look at it, and if by some miracle it's something easy and I have time then participate with something I write quickly, but definitely not spend much time on it
14:18:55 <wob_jonas> i.e. my plan is the same
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18:43:26 <shachaf> Sgeo: See, I knew bugging you about it would help.
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19:42:36 <shachaf> `smlist 472
19:42:37 <HackEso> smlist 472: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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20:42:37 <int-e> `` wc -l quotes; tail -n1 quotes
20:42:37 <HackEso> 1324 quotes \ <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint.
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21:14:37 <imode> can someone tell me how something like a register machine with a fixed number of registers is able to store and manipulate arbitrary datastructures like adjacency matrices for graphs?
21:16:43 <imode> trying to figure out how you're able to squeeze out different representations of data from multiset rewriting.
21:23:16 <int-e> imode: what do you mean by multiset rewriting?
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21:24:20 <imode> a rewriting system with rules of the form `m -> m'`, where m and m' are subsets of a larger multiset.
21:24:48 <int-e> So, Petri nets.
21:24:57 <imode> and P-systems with one membrane, yeah.
21:25:08 <imode> and FRACTRAN.
21:25:50 <int-e> (Multiset rewriting exists in the literature but what I found has more structure.)
21:26:10 <imode> what literature? :o
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21:27:42 <int-e> imode: Petri nets are not just similar, they are isomorphic to what you describe; represent the rule m -> m' by a transition that has arcs from each element of m and arcs to each element of m'.
21:28:27 <int-e> (you'll need places for all elements in the rules)
21:28:28 <imode> yeah, I'm aware. register machines are a subset of multiset rewriting systems with inhibitors.
21:28:49 <imode> I've just never seen stuff like datastructures be dealt with in them like I have with traditional TMs or string rewriting systems.
21:29:04 <int-e> but anyway, as to your question I think people generally simulate two stacks, which gives you a Turing machine, and leave it at that
21:29:12 <imode> I see.
21:29:40 <imode> so not really useful in and of themselves, then... that's a shame.
21:31:53 <int-e> To simulate a stack, you only need multiplication and division with remainder by a fixed constant (the size of the stack alphabet). So one register for each stack, and one scratch register. So 3 registers is TC. To work with 2 registers, people then simulate a 3-register machine by representing (a,b,c) by 2^a 3^b 5^c, and again multiplication and division by constants (namely the primes 2,3,5)...
21:32:00 <int-e> ...wins the day.
21:32:39 <int-e> Obviously the complexity suffers horribly.
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21:34:23 <int-e> Alternatively, you can execute recursive functions on a Minsky machine. But again, you'll have to work quite hard in order to represent complex data structures as natural numbers.
21:34:39 <imode> yeah, the number of operations just grows and grows... I was just wondering if there were any shortcuts other than godel numbering for representing structured data.
21:34:39 <int-e> And I don't think Petri nets make this any easier.
21:35:50 <imode> guess turing got it right the first time. :P
21:36:39 <imode> if the structure you rewrite over doesn't have enough "structure", for the lack of a better term, complexity suffers, both in terms of operations and constructing algorithms.
21:36:50 <int-e> TMs are awkward to, since tapes lack random access.
21:37:29 <int-e> (well... efficient random access)
21:37:31 <imode> right, but it's not hard to constructively build random access via multi-tape or multi-track constructions.
21:37:54 <imode> I can't imagine building RAM out of a register machine without defaulting to an intermediary TM.
21:39:25 <int-e> No matter how you do it there's an unavoidable exponential slowdown compared to RAM.
21:39:52 <imode> yup. which is why I turn to things like string rewriting systems.
21:40:04 <int-e> Because the information has to be stored in a finite number of registers, so they have to grow exponentially, and the only way to extract information from a register is to reduce it all the way to 0.
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21:42:46 <int-e> So basically Minsky machines are inherently impractical, so there's hardly any incentive for optimization.
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21:43:21 <imode> yeaaah... I'll just stick with regular ol' strings.
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22:58:51 <imode> someone mentioned that composing programs in Thue involves composition on the symbol level. how would you "wrap up" a thue program to be used by another thue program?
22:59:41 <imode> I guess it has to do with composing unrestricted grammmars.
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