< 1530662413 292105 :imode-desktop!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1530663118 302271 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1530663378 489841 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1530663673 788043 :mrrmx!~mrrmx@pool-108-26-204-216.bstnma.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530664465 544732 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tyibhmnhafzohwaa QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1530667003 722521 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: welcome back! > 1530668087 528514 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck algorithms14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56365&oldid=56339 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-62) 10This doesn't follow the page conventions - x isn't a cell label, but apparently a hardcoded number, so this doesn't really count as an algorithm. < 1530668299 537945 :mrrmx!~mrrmx@pool-108-26-204-216.bstnma.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1530668423 945870 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system <-- it was inevitable. < 1530668526 246190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: how are you fixing it < 1530669783 220112 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530670066 183869 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1530670945 791538 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Dd14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56366 5* 03A 5* (+43) 10Created page with "==dd== ==Syntax== dd print "dd" in console." < 1530671781 933045 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds > 1530672684 163774 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56367&oldid=55792 5* 03A 5* (+253) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530672720 946832 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56368&oldid=56367 5* 03A 5* (-15) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530673013 295949 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1530673014 937489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56369&oldid=56368 5* 03A 5* (+192) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530673167 424867 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56370&oldid=56369 5* 03A 5* (+148) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530673308 293801 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1530673933 705407 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!0 < 1530673938 313815 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 ...out of time! < 1530673942 621839 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!1 < 1530673942 985983 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... < 1530673976 19304 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to lack the termination part... > 1530673996 541414 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56371&oldid=56370 5* 03A 5* (-426) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530674006 737429 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56372&oldid=56371 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530674097 665978 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56373&oldid=56372 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530674214 364935 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56374&oldid=56373 5* 03A 5* (-9) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530674319 27743 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56375&oldid=56374 5* 03A 5* (-6) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530674924 761827 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56376&oldid=56375 5* 03A 5* (+93) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530675132 355677 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56377&oldid=56376 5* 03A 5* (-136) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530675207 52409 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56378&oldid=56377 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530676137 312797 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what's a transducer, and why doesn't ex support transliterations (the equivalent of sed's y command) > 1530676196 73244 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56379&oldid=56378 5* 03A 5* (+94) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530676334 615431 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56380&oldid=56379 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530676974 719971 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1530677022 999532 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1530677394 985101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: A transducer is a state machine where the edges are labeled with input and output characters < 1530677413 312060 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1530677566 639652 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530677692 432741 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1530677773 724836 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56381&oldid=56380 5* 03A 5* (-91) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530677833 336855 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1530677884 188926 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56382&oldid=56381 5* 03A 5* (-1) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530677918 155641 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56383&oldid=56382 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530678355 570856 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56384&oldid=56383 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530678659 688597 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!0 < 1530678664 101208 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 ...out of time! < 1530678666 480468 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!1 < 1530678666 695513 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... < 1530678731 913854 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's starting to get good at it... > 1530678757 360832 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56385&oldid=56384 5* 03A 5* (-2) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530678758 285219 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i don't like the nontermination, but the original version also seems to have that problem... < 1530678818 275737 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!0 < 1530678822 738906 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 ...out of time! < 1530678824 606108 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!1 < 1530678824 811661 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... < 1530678835 763579 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's just too slow for fungot < 1530678836 86583 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ( ( okay okay)) possibly will be shown on court t._v. all day laughter and i thought < 1530679205 255475 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tracing in vim, looks like it indeed loops infinitely. < 1530679486 232581 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530679790 225000 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1530679835 893612 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ah ok < 1530680020 539508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: A few days ago I described a thing I don't know how to do with sed. < 1530680030 724865 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd was very easy to understand today. < 1530680235 709913 :shamsham!~test26667@cwb.access-186.216.239.19.pektelecom.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1530680248 455101 :shamsham!~test26667@cwb.access-186.216.239.19.pektelecom.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1530680393 789932 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1530680805 884727 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and can't you just do a transducer thing by just adding a character marking the I/O head, with input on the right of it and output on the left, and then s/// and t all the transducing stuff? < 1530680959 238957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure? < 1530680973 14544 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I get home I can tell you about my example < 1530681029 307765 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1530681442 570378 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the output of a transducer isn't necessarily deterministic as function of the input hth < 1530683893 673654 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that reminds me, there was a conversation I wanted to continue < 1530683996 630878 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" IMO Unicode should have used different codepoints for the two Turkish Is than for the Latin I" => I was thinking about this, and I now think that it either can't work, or there'd be a cop-out where some of those six characters rarely actually get used. < 1530684403 186247 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, assume there's no cop-out, namely: English and Turkish are still widely used languages, pre-digital English and pre-digital Turkish texts exclusively use the current casing rules and this isn't close to changing when computers get invented, and ASCII still only contains the two English I letters. < 1530684596 349579 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now suppose you have a typical computer loser who's typing a Turkish text in his Word documents on his Windows computer (or whatever tech is dominant around the 2000s) and prints them or sends them in email. If the turkish I are really encoded as four non-ASCII characters and these encodings are used, then this user will type those four turkish I i < 1530684596 498942 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :n the word document, right? < 1530684645 618903 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this will happen quasi-automatically, buy him just installing a Turkish localized Windows XP and MS Office and doing no customizations on his computer. < 1530684742 337574 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then suppose that this loser decides to try to become a power user, and learn a bit of programming. He finds some dodgy C++ or Java tutorials on the internet or something, then types int main() { printf("hello, world\n"); return 0; } < 1530684955 586258 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My question is, at what point in the technology pipeline do those letter i in int and main and printf get converted to ASCII letter i, or otherwise understood by the compiler that the keyword means the same? How will this happen in such a way that it causes less of a PITA than the current situation for non-Turkish power users who are creating the t < 1530684955 723307 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ools involved, like the operating system and input method and the compiler and the command-line interpreter and the version control system?? < 1530685059 872682 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I know that conversation I'm continuing was back in more than two days, but I'm sorry, I was seriously in a hospital. > 1530685825 775337 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56386&oldid=56385 5* 03A 5* (+227) 10 > 1530685909 154282 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56387&oldid=56386 5* 03A 5* (+17) 10 > 1530687654 140041 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56388&oldid=56387 5* 03A 5* (+174) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530687684 56704 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56389&oldid=56388 5* 03A 5* (+11) 10/* brainfuck */ > 1530687698 942358 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56390&oldid=56389 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10/* brainfuck */ < 1530688240 48448 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1530689283 756814 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530693011 255957 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1530694650 973001 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? sgdq < 1530694652 322209 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ < 1530696244 329598 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1530699887 383120 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530701963 70848 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: FLATTENED CHICKEN < 1530707211 288729 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1530709231 254978 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530710250 800913 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xrrydiwaxesxiddf JOIN :#esoteric < 1530711668 292846 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf26q8wflfvvi0.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1530711989 640866 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client > 1530712146 1412 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56391&oldid=56390 5* 03Ais523 5* (-521) 10rv; I'm not convinced this content adds to the article (also, being able to truth-machine falls well short of Turing-completeness; it *is* decent evidence that what you're dealing with is at least an FSM, but probably doesn't prove that) < 1530712289 773707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530712299 908842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shorten_your_Brainfuck_code has got to be a troll, right? < 1530712304 232485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it's amusing < 1530712394 772346 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1530712482 309494 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530712482 370051 :wob_jonas!b03f183d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.61 QUIT :Client Quit < 1530713345 395455 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1530714689 543294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530714702 213707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530715873 423957 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530715894 936615 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: please logread near < 1530715898 844395 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-07-04.html#lnb < 1530715994 318677 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe Unicode should have a separate codepoint for dot-varying-on-case i too then < 1530716009 643991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least when it's ambiguous, you know it's ambiguous, and there are steps you can take to clarify < 1530716039 342137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode - < 1530716040 91247 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] < 1530716051 158197 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't be any worse than the hyphen-minus situation < 1530716060 187328 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you ever finish writing up your magic-is-TC thing? < 1530716061 591091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is also sometimes used as a dash!) < 1530716077 83791 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: did you see the two pages I posted to the channel? I haven't written more than that < 1530716082 350870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got stuck on the esolang side of things < 1530716105 729355 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, one issue is that we have to explain how we know that undecidable programs exist but we can't prove that any given program is undecidable < 1530716112 871778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus we can't give an example < 1530716120 35990 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: a few weeks ago? Yeah, I saw them and with the help of a couple of firends who play magic I more or less understood it < 1530716123 279081 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another issue is that it'd be nice to give an example of a program that isn't known to be decidable < 1530716141 959146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most programs like that are rather complex, especially when translated into The Waterfall Model < 1530716144 912154 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'd be nice to have a simpler one < 1530716163 724116 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I actually think the right method for the turkish i is just telling the language of each part of the text in the higher-level markup language, such as with a HTML lang tag. that's what we do for every language-dependent thing ideally: unified han characters so the viewer can choose the font, unified cyrillic letters so the browser can use t < 1530716163 967999 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he right font for italic, text search, conventions of quoting, etc < 1530716167 847335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to find the simplest possible universal minsky machine, really (or at least one that's simple, even if it isn't proven simplest) < 1530716193 41110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition < 1530716215 520038 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there's a big argument wrt Chinese and Japanese rendering (which aren't the same, and yet Unicode doesn't distinguish between Chinese and Japanese characters) < 1530716249 297137 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, by the way, I also disappeared for 18 days and haven't read your M:tG thing yet because of that < 1530716291 356117 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: did your friends who play magic agree with the explanation of Omni-Tell? It's always a bit awkward doing deck techs for a deck you've never played < 1530716345 919527 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they found it reasonable, I think < 1530716353 234396 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I think I now sort of understand one reason why there are so many brainfuck-alikes < 1530716387 546934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most people (asdf/a being an exception) make derivatives only of languages they think they understand? < 1530716435 776791 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a SECOND esolang joke in my head that could be easily done as "Brainfuck with ", and I must resist doing that. For the first such idea, luckily I can put the joke in Consumer society, but I haven't figured out the brainfuckless context for the second joke yet. < 1530716489 570782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some jokes only work when you're working from a base everyone already understands < 1530716494 335470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte, for example < 1530716503 842909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in that case starting from practical languages works even better than starting from BF < 1530716534 207291 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition" => wait what? what "each language"? you mean even spanish and portugese would have different letters from each other? norwegian and danish? < 1530716644 470363 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese kanji, I heared rumours that the Han unification was done back when people thought Unicode would only have a space of 2**16 code points, and they were afraid of running out of that if they didn't do Han unification. < 1530716655 241017 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know how true that is < 1530716694 996607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: they'd be related, as in Unicode would know that they were "the same letter" and font systems would render them the same way by default, but in different blocks in case different, e.g., collation rules are needed < 1530716711 12059 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could merge languages which had identical casing and collation and rendering and grapheme boundaries, but that's fairly rare < 1530716732 724898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just compare Hungarian "gy" to English "gy", for example, they're an identical sequence of letters but they're a unit in Hungarian and not in English < 1530716749 906200 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the Dutch IJ? < 1530716759 287253 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard tо imagine Unicοde without duplicates. < 1530716764 444228 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not as familiar with Dutch but it wouldn't surprise me < 1530716783 582897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there are other examples, e.g. oe in German is actually equivalent to ö < 1530716790 669835 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Forte is not just a joke though. I'm thinking of actual jokes, ones that would be categorized joke language on esolang if they were brainfuck-based. and my second joke will probably be like that, only using some base other than brainfuck, if I ever write it up (this is a joke that needs some research by me before I can tell it) < 1530716817 792030 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode оοo < 1530716818 581520 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+03BF GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] < 1530716864 741594 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I just talked about the Hungarian sz/cs/ny/gy and I disagree, they're still two letters in Hungarian. http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2018-06.html%23d.2018-06-11.2525#comment-24610 < 1530716898 624441 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the status of your omnitell writeup? is there an updated version from those two draft pages you showed before I disappeared? < 1530716916 102139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't changed it < 1530716929 750939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my argument is that gy collate together in Hungarian and thus they're different from English, where they don't < 1530716934 823275 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you disagree with that < 1530716961 434497 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't disagree with that, but I still say that they're not one letters just because they collate together < 1530717014 825116 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:aaaa:0:aaaa:0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: my understanding of ais523's argument is because they collate different, they are different letters to the English gy, or could be treated as such < 1530717023 322542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I treat them as a unit, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same letter < 1530717038 362068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"qu" is pretty much a unit in English, apart from in a few loanwords, although that has a different nature < 1530717057 958193 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: right, you should be able to collate text without parsing things like HTML tags that specify the language < 1530717066 939548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you should be able to collate it without assuming that it's all written in a single language < 1530717095 632353 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my oxford dictionary ignores spaces when sorting headword, so eg. the order of headwords at one point I randomly opened the dictionary is "folk rock; folk song; folksy; folk tale; folkweave; folky". would you make the "k " a single character just so that collation works? < 1530717155 277215 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, in that case it's the space that has an unusal collation property (i.e. not collating at all) < 1530717166 39491 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some similar situations, e.g. hyphens don't collate in many languages/contexts < 1530717169 984441 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh wait, are you saying that they should be a separate character because you want to collate words differently based on their language in a single list? because that never works < 1530717175 589274 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just don't do that < 1530717196 536428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that it never works, but I don't see why it couldn't work if people tried to make it work < 1530717206 829355 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we choose one collation rule and collate all words with that rule in the list, even if a minority of words is from a different language < 1530717256 414225 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be impractical, because you can't expect people reading the list to know all the collation rules for all languages < 1530717271 243729 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even paper library catalogs, which are pretty heavy on rules, don't do that < 1530717303 509757 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, admittedly some do < 1530717402 81732 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you recall the example from TAOCP about sorting a library catalog where leading article words in any languageare ignored for collation iff they're in nominative case < 1530717448 525215 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in that case the card itself displays the title by either moving the article to the back or by underlining the keyword to sort by with a red pen < 1530717538 164974 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess you could make the case for just Hungarian too that you may need some way to distinguish between an accidental z-s combination (as in "egészség" and "szemeteszsák") from a real letter zs, and unicode doesn't help you there, < 1530717569 567525 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have used manual exception lists for that, and some TeX macros, though the letter mostly for hyphenation rather than collation < 1530717575 6462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in France it's apparently common to capitalise the sort key in lists of names < 1530717617 834653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring (except that it probably doesn't cause a time paradox) < 1530717702 224441 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we do that too to show which of your personal names are the family name, because social conventions dictate that the person addressing you must know that, people use both western and Hungarian order for their name on English CVs and the like, and many words are both common family names and male given names in Hungarian < 1530717723 896629 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have my family name all uppercased in my current CV for example < 1530717732 768979 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that CV being written in English < 1530717733 606205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in England it can be hard to interact with people who you know are from a culture which uses the opposite order for names < 1530717744 372129 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they might have swapped the names for our benefit or might not, so we don't know which name is which < 1530717797 333572 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's even worse with Japenese and Vietnamese names, because most people don't know enough of their culture to even make an educated guess of which part of the name is the family name < 1530717842 922120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some video games which were translated from Japanese to English but proper nouns were left the same < 1530717853 298604 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after playing a few of those you can often make a good guess at recognising Japanese personal names < 1530717949 935991 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there's the special problem of guessing if a name is an Icelandic name or a Western name with a family name that sounds like an Icelandic patronym < 1530717981 421646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in most cases that doesn't matter, though < 1530718022 753357 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? it matters for the same social conventions < 1530718032 480767 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and collation too) < 1530718216 61648 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. if you're in a hospital and want to refer to a specific doctor who's treated you, you shall call them their family name plus a rank in some order, but never call them their given name plus a title (which depends on their rank and gender) if they have a family name because that would be insulting. there's a workaround of using their full name, b < 1530718216 195592 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ut that's costly. < 1530718367 729028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean a family name and patronym are used in much the same contexts < 1530718378 368531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's often a bad idea to try to work out what to call someone from their name < 1530718394 98563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in England it's quite common for the name that someone prefers to be called by not to match /any/ of their official names < 1530718399 938496 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guessing the right title is also tricky by the way if you haven't yet gotten a paper receipt listing their name. I think that's why some hospital departments have a prominent list of doctors working their with their ranks (and sometimes photos) < 1530718458 201393 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, that's true only for Russian patronyms, not for Icelandic patronyms < 1530718468 336934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1530718477 777412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't use title+patronym, right < 1530718501 825972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that said, I don't think you'd use title+forename either < 1530718585 542405 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a forename? < 1530718667 308792 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for icelandic names, you use the given name (plus often a title before or after) in contexts where you'd use a family name (plus title) with a western or Hungarian name, and you use the given name plus patronym for disambiguation contexts when you'd use the full name for a western or Hungarian name < 1530718732 236370 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only it's impossible to guess if the name is actually Icelandic, or it's westernized, similar to how it's hard to guess which name is the family name in some Hungarian names that might be swapped in a western context < 1530718779 296211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"forename" is "given name" in cultures which put that first < 1530718787 16702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's put first in Iceland, isn't it? < 1530718814 934078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but over here in England we're given multiple names and refuse to use any of them :-P < 1530718817 212034 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some people with Icelandic names do westernise their names in some contexts < 1530718826 655007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got annoyed when my ISP refused to call me "Alex"… < 1530718860 360456 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see. I didn't know that word. I thought it was just called a given name or a christian name, or just plain "name" on forms that have a "surname" field < 1530718881 699546 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't even know there was a special word for given names that come first < 1530718969 930378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's by far the most common in British English when we're talking about our own culture, "given name" has only become popular fairly recently because it's more culture-independent < 1530719016 422087 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wasn't it "first name" and "last name" back when they just assumed western order? < 1530719038 13444 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you're talking to children, perhaps; "forename" and "surname" was more common < 1530719050 145684 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1530719111 918412 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, some nicknames are completely unguessable, in both ways, as in, you can't guess the nickname from the name, and you can't guess the name from a short set of names on a list from just the nickname < 1530719125 406425 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes the nickname is not even related to the full name < 1530719170 925280 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even in IRL contexts as opposed to IRC or other internet-based forums where people deliberately obfuscate their real name < 1530719287 15337 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've introduced myself to people as callforjudgement in real life… < 1530719335 728112 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are even people on the internet who insist on two different nicknames for different contexts < 1530719359 372334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like me < 1530719374 973011 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no particular reason to have consistent nicknames unless you want people to recognise you cross-context < 1530719383 915452 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1530719418 705862 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused by the callforjudgement though, I assumed it was just a fallback irc nick for when you have multiple connections < 1530719428 244453 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you just always used ais523 < 1530719454 72708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the contexts where you know me, I indeed use ais523 as a primary nick; I set callforjudgement as a secondary nick here to keep it reserved < 1530719462 261048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I use it on some other sites < 1530719482 310348 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1530719484 702665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :callforjudgement < 1530719486 591772 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1530719500 350511 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although recently my connection failures haven't been jumping over to it so I'd better reset the timeout! < 1530719564 606418 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know David Madore uses his real name and two different unrelated nicknames actively, plus had at least one other nickname in the past, but he doesn't hide the connections and I don't really understand how he chooses between which name he uses < 1530719583 201030 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the obvious part where he uses his full name in formal academic contexts < 1530719584 234674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use callforjudgement for gaming < 1530719589 26227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ais523 for programming < 1530719612 481585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, there's enough of an overlap WRT TASing/speedrunning that I ended up having to use ais523 for that as there'd be an inconsistency no matter what I chose < 1530719651 842453 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use b_jonas_ and b_jonas__ as IRC fallbacks because those are sane defaults, plus I used b_jonas-2 at some point < 1530719685 747207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use ais523_ specifically for when I'm using someone else's computer < 1530719694 304822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more underscores indicate sufficiently more ridiculous setups < 1530719707 74293 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1530719746 989957 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I used ais523___ once, I can't remember the exact setup but I think IE6 might have been involved (years after it had become a complete joke and wasn't current even among IE versions) < 1530719770 209489 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for me, on some forums I've been calling myself "jonas" for so long that switching to "b_jonas" would be confusing to readers now, but "jonas" isn't unambiguous enough (there's even a forum with a "Jonas" unrelated to me), so I'm stuck and don't know what to do < 1530719773 426499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I didn't mean "sufficiently" < 1530719778 786515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't figure out which word I did mean though < 1530719802 390260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :commensurably, perhaps? < 1530719824 223458 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"incrementally"? < 1530719840 946224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be < 1530719915 310344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(incidentally, this serves as yet another trivial disproof of the sapir-whorf hypothesis; I find that disproofs like this come up once every few years, so while rare, they should be common enough for everyone to be aware of them if they've been paying attention to it for a while) < 1530720075 706594 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: when I read English, such as on IRC, I usually think in English now unless I'm very tired. (I'm often ashamed about that.) In that case, when I don't know the right word in English, I imagine sort of a buzz replacing the word, and still finish the sentence in my head and understand it. Is that another disproof? < 1530720095 240392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1530720107 968973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any situation where you think a word without knowing what the word is should be a disproof < 1530720141 90164 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1530720216 811127 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was thinking about the turkish i situation, I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of workarounds (cop-outs) involving time travel by the way. < 1530720289 248135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, somehow I'm reminded of Feather < 1530720299 865268 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The easiest method with time-travel would of course to convince Kemal Attatürk to not use the turkish i, or just kill or incapacitate him and hope the next language reformer won't come up with such a ridiculous thing. < 1530720401 606848 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more tricky method is to bribe or threaten Noah Webster to use the turkish i in English texts, then hope that catches on and that with the US being a major superpower back then and inventing computers, everyone else in the word would use the turkish casing rule. < 1530720472 128354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably Gutenberg would make a better person to bribe < 1530720479 71073 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, you'd make everyone use İ as the capital of i, so much that it becomes an ASCII letter, and I becomes an obscure glyph that you only see in old books. < 1530720487 17400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you affect most European languages, not just English < 1530720503 491055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the printing press was mostly responsible for, e.g., þ dying out from English) < 1530720633 544515 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but wasn't Gutenberg specifically trying to make printed books look as similar to manuscript codexes at his time, even to the extent of making the typesetting technology more difficult by having different variants of types for the same letter so they look just like in manuscripts? < 1530720716 66745 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're right that there's a risk that some European languages get stuck using the old conventions even if English changes. < 1530720882 713086 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An even bigger overkill cop-out would be to somehow use time-travel to make the US less powerful, have Turkey become a superpower, and have them pioneer telegraphs so that the two different pairs of i are already there in all character encodings, even baudot. But I think that wouldn't work, because then they'd never have changed away from arabic sc < 1530720882 894235 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ript. < 1530721060 626179 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the time they switched to latin, printed books in latin script and non-turkish languages would have been too influential. < 1530721150 593434 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making Vietnam a superpower would also not work for the same reason. < 1530721529 448151 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So my safest bet for a time-travel fix is still just bribing Kemal Atatürk, https://www.xkcd.com/567/ style < 1530721595 607088 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would still leave you with a Vietnamese dotted I, but that's a lesser problem, it's only comparable to the cyrillic italic letter differences. < 1530722336 193372 :mrrmx!mrrmx@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/mrrmx JOIN :#esoteric < 1530722341 466752 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also for some reason I was thinking a lot that we should reform Hungarian spelling so that it's easier to guess the pronunciation of transliterated words and loanwords. In particular, the semi-vowel u should be properly distinguished from the vowel u, such as by writing them as w or ŭ. The most common word where that appears is aŭtó, and all greek- < 1530722341 600295 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :originating compounds that start by aŭto. < 1530722398 222557 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, in English, au is the same as aw, but also the same as or < 1530722408 245943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in most dialects < 1530722419 807721 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think of au as being a vowel of its own, rather than a combination of a+u < 1530722440 737428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ou/ow is similar < 1530722454 905929 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although ou has a number of possible pronounciations < 1530722474 229083 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :out, southern, bought… < 1530722490 757952 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, we should transliterate chi from ancient greek as ch instead of kh, because "kh" is a very common combination to appear randomly in inflected or suffixed words, so much that such occurrences dwarf the number of "kh" used as chi. < 1530722591 136702 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ch and kh are pronounced differently < 1530722595 501836 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very differently < 1530722603 827318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so people use kh to give a better impression of how it sounds < 1530722641 19862 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see a decent argument for getting rid of the letter c altogether, and using k or s instead, but that means you need to find some other way to write ch (as it's neither a kh nor an sh) < 1530723059 394612 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm talking about ancient greek, not modern greek, and you can't use k or s instead because those are already used for kappa and sigma resp < 1530723094 850362 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you mean in English or French? < 1530723101 753069 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there the "ch" would be a bad choice < 1530723104 45088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in English, yes < 1530723152 148940 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, what's the difference between chi, kappa, and kappa followed by an aspirated vowel? < 1530723153 369448 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin. < 1530723192 185630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1530723194 349061 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin. < 1530723222 786513 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, "ch" is something different yet again in Scottish < 1530723235 693601 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like Welsh ll than English ch/sh/kh < 1530723258 647213 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ch" also sometimes appears as an accidental combination, like "kh", but less often, because "c" is a rare letter, and even rarer at the end of morphemes < 1530723324 261400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, "c" at the end of a word in English is (as far as I can tell) always hard, and nearly always spelled as "k" instead < 1530723333 795730 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the "kh" situation annoys me because in Russian (and most other languages not using the latin script) we transliterate the same sound with "h", so we have three different spellings for one sound for no reason. < 1530723358 436475 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, again I'm saying "ch" appears as random combination in Hungarian rarely < 1530723367 611299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, OK < 1530723374 600294 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :English doesn't have any inflections that start with "h" < 1530723380 186779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience with Hungarian is that it gets a lot of random letter combinations < 1530723407 33967 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Hungarian has "-hez" for nouns and the suffix "-het" which are both quite common < 1530723414 867799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can form compound words where the second part of the compound starts with h < 1530723433 633653 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that can happen < 1530723502 423349 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in general, "k" and "h" have swapped frequency in Hungarian vs English. English has a lot of "h" (because of the word "the") and few "k", whereas Hungarian has a lot of "k" (mostly because of conjugation and declination) but very few "h" (and even some mute "h") < 1530723616 496393 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, by the way, the second or third reason why Dvorak keyboard layout for Hungarian is a bad idea, the first reason being that "á" and "é" are too common. < 1530723831 983148 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second reason is that "sz" is very common. we missed the opportunity around 1900 to use a single letter for "sz", and it would be very hard to fix now. < 1530723882 373935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungarian sz is English s, and Hungarian s is English… sh? < 1530723897 188204 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, correct < 1530723906 649582 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should be using a single letter for sh :-D < 1530723927 114224 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could use j, nobody will miss it :-D < 1530723941 952787 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst part is that Hungarian "c" used to be spelled as "cz", so there was an opening when we could have respelled "sz" as "c". < 1530723959 374565 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Hungarian "c" is a totally rare letter, rarer even than "cs" < 1530723982 298146 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(come to think of it, the language name Clojure uses j in a position that makes an sh sound in the word "closure"…) < 1530724023 595017 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: really? I think it's a voiced soft j sound in "closure", as in, the "measure" sound < 1530724029 95460 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check my dict < 1530724108 768027 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you're probably right < 1530724119 778896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many accents don't distinguish those sounds clearly < 1530724143 641475 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dict agrees with me < 1530724553 809501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1530724627 820698 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xrrydiwaxesxiddf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1530724702 630252 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian "sz" as "s", Hungarian "s" as "c", Hungarian "cs" as "č" or "ć", Hungarian "zs" as "ž" or "ź", Hungarian "c" as "š" or "ś", and Hungarian "z" still as "z"; < 1530724739 984996 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for that you'd have to time travel back at least 600 years, as opposed to just the simple partial fix of spelling "sz" as "c". < 1530725319 385772 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another alternative that would perhaps work is to spell Hungarian with a variant of the modern Ukranian alphabet, but with acute accent for marking long vowels. < 1530725378 314881 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's even more impossible historically, because the modern cyrillic alphabets are way too new. < 1530725468 727503 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wpa-4-546.cc.umanitoba.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1530725737 171928 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas the ŭ respelling could conceivably happen if the Academy decided to decree its use and made the old spelling acceptible but depreciated. < 1530725789 252979 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that reminds me. I have a question. < 1530725916 600702 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the Kalevala, "Kaukomieli", the alternate name for Lemminkejnen, is it supposed to be four syllables or five syllables? It appears as both in Rácz István's translation, and I'm not sure which one is the error. < 1530726070 211011 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a few other cases where this printing of the translation has 9-syllable half-lines (rather than the expected 8-syllable ones), apparently by mistake, but the "Kaukomieli" part is very annoying because I can't tell which of at least two lines containing it are mistakes, the ones where it's used as four syllable or the ones where it's used < 1530726070 354640 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as five syllable. < 1530726134 614235 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking this here because there are people who speak Finnish. < 1530726140 376050 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530726351 79743 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably check the older edition for some of those mistaken lines by the way. < 1530726405 130602 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll also want to try the other translations, because I'm not quite satisfied with Rácz István's, due to the very high standards in poetry translation that I must compare him. < 1530726911 435342 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530727079 681765 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 (who isn't here, I know): in the Omni-tell thing, if the original tournament deck includes 8 Wishes, then how can you tell that the deck would still be tourey-viable if you modify the sideboard? < 1530727382 392133 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wpa-4-546.cc.umanitoba.ca QUIT :Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return. < 1530727397 190520 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1530727397 687805 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1530727397 687850 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1530727809 730723 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530728790 727622 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530728846 910417 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, once ais523 gets his writeup on the M:tG TC proof in a good state, we'll seriously have to consider M:tG-without-Rotlung-Reanimator as an esolang of whose computational abilities we care about. < 1530730232 43655 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530730533 865271 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1530730803 362872 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1530730923 733241 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Client Quit < 1530730964 23505 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1530730967 688773 :Suika!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1530731011 10356 :Suika!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530731013 230937 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Client Quit < 1530731033 402689 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1530732608 464394 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530732865 321356 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1530734623 41698 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1530735018 446733 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, src < 1530735018 730729 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: um in the evening and stuff see we can't leave the classroom now < 1530735028 459328 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's fungot's SRC again? :P < 1530735028 683171 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: over memorial day sigh like service that was on that plane < 1530735072 526038 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, github < 1530735072 796565 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: yeah i i always wonder if if it's made known or if it's boring or you know you < 1530735076 533329 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, source < 1530735076 732474 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: ( ( sigh you know what this is christie)) doesn't make any sense < 1530735082 540239 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dies
< 1530735156 535565 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :+src < 1530735160 515156 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :+help < 1530735162 657950 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ping < 1530735170 681391 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :¯\_(ツ)_/¯ < 1530735209 161467 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1530735209 287032 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 < 1530735215 694817 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: ^ < 1530735423 724971 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1530735579 659196 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1530736024 171372 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and by the way, I'll be afk starting tomorrow for four days, for a real world travel event, so don't be surprised if I'm not here.. < 1530736285 66938 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in "Magic: the Gathering is Undecidable: The Setup", you say "Most notably, this gives us arbitrarily many casts of Force of Will with which we can counter anything counterable our opponent tries to do, arguably enough for a win in most gamestates as it is." < 1530736338 36219 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't seem right, because the combo you mention can't be done instant speed, and the opponent could cast more spells than you have Force of Wills < 1530736388 381273 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only repeat that combo at sorcery speed < 1530736562 95226 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We'll hold some Forces of Will back in case the opponent has any free spells in their hand; as far as I can tell, every spell that can be cast for free can be countered. So the only potential problems would be uncounterable spells powered by something like Simian Spirit Guide, which the opponent is unlikely to have." => no, another problem would b < 1530736562 275888 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e abilities on cards in their hand, such as channel, but those usually cost mana too > 1530737388 860394 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Language 5* 10New user account > 1530737543 458235 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56392&oldid=56361 5* 03Language 5* (+175) 10/* Introductions */ < 1530738225 78188 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in the setup of the clean opponent state, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and two Amoeboid changelings each enchanted by a Diplomatic Immunity, and turn their Sigarda and Muse changelings in each of your upkeeps? < 1530738275 331431 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Ghoul won't work on them because all four creatures have all creature types, and you can't target anything. < 1530738318 186024 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530738625 186768 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1530738735 962306 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, the Sigarda doesn't even need a Diplomatic Immunity, it has hexproof built in. < 1530738846 687442 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons that got turned into typeless by a use of Animate Artifact and < 1530738851 230638 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore that < 1530738904 179108 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just take the original question: a Sigarda, Host of Herons, a Seedborn Muse, and two Amoeboid Changelings, three of those protected by Diplomatic Immunity < 1530739027 66011 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit this is pretty unlikely in a real game < 1530739358 911033 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530740091 239267 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :""szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring" => yes, which is why I started spelling "szemeteszsák" (the only non-rare word where it doesn't resolve to "sz"+"s") as "szemetes-zsák" these days, even though that's technically not allowed by the Academy rules. < 1530741787 697005 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could still Trickbind the use of the Amoeboid < 1530743256 301657 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zf26q8wflfvvi0.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds > 1530743624 792911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56393 5* 03Language 5* (+3113) 10Created language about a wiki. > 1530743906 711564 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56394&oldid=55710 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+67) 10linked to a language about a wiki < 1530744083 686067 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1530744137 202193 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Language14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56395&oldid=56393 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+74) 10spec fix of a language about a wiki < 1530745882 541183 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he could have three Amoeboids < 1530746084 194953 :wob_jonas!b03f189a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.154 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1530746148 570420 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530747340 189902 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1530747941 379346 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530748090 170599 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1530748279 703544 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1530748557 669712 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds