00:00:52 <Galaxtone> anyway he's on the unoffical discord
00:00:54 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55530&oldid=55459 * Xanman12321 * (+17)
00:01:43 <esowiki> [[User:Xanman12321]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55531&oldid=55530 * Galaxtone * (-14)
00:11:25 <Galaxtone> and I think I just figured out how to make Roie turing-complete
00:13:26 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge
00:13:59 <ais523> or, well, there's more than one way to define "smallest" but Nopfunge wins on most metrics!
00:14:28 <ais523> there's a demonstration on how it's TC towards the bottom of the page
00:14:33 <Galaxtone> I made a fungeoid that also has four instructions
00:14:49 <ais523> the main thing about Nopfunge is that you need part but not all the program to be repeating, which is a bit nontrivial
00:14:53 <Galaxtone> and It can simulate NAND and move data condtional so it should be TC
00:15:10 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Black may be worth looking at if what you care about is instruction count rather than conceptual simplicity
00:15:25 <Galaxtone> i still don't know how four directions can be TC
00:15:42 <ais523> so the minimum data storage you need for TCness is one queue or two counters, right?
00:15:52 <ais523> in Nopfunge, the x and y coordinates of the IP effectively form the two counters
00:15:58 <Galaxtone> uh for some reason your 1L link redirects to non existant page 1Land
00:16:05 <Galaxtone> but when I go into my address bar and delete "and"
00:16:17 <ais523> I blame your IRC client
00:16:25 <ais523> there's a space there between "1L" and "and" in my original comment
00:17:15 <ais523> that's very common on a page about a language family
00:17:23 <ais523> where some members but not all are implemented
00:17:48 <Galaxtone> whats the smallest instruction count they got?
00:19:55 <esowiki> [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55532&oldid=53846 * Ais523 * (+254) /* Black implementations */ Link to the Golly implementation
00:20:20 <ais523> 1L langauges are defined by being a 2D language with only NOP and "not NOP" as instructions
00:20:40 <ais523> most of them cheat by having instructions do things if you merely pass near them, in addition to doing things if you hit them directly
00:20:56 <ais523> e.g. Black will turn away from an instruction next to the path, and move an instruction in its path along a grid
00:20:58 <Galaxtone> unless you count an instruction like "x"
00:21:11 <Galaxtone> and making it do different things based on position
00:21:18 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
00:21:25 <ais523> although at this point it is /definitely/ cheating :-D
00:22:49 <ais523> it's more zero-dimensional
00:23:25 <ais523> although with some languages, you can effectively say "it's a 2D language, just there's no way to turn the IP so it wraps round and round the first line forever"
00:23:57 <ais523> the https://esolangs.org/wiki/I/D_machine is a TC two-command language that doesn't cheat in any way, and the program wraps round and round forever
00:24:07 <ais523> so I guess you could see it as a "1D slice of a 2D language"
00:24:27 <ais523> if you want an actual fungeoid, though, you're going to need more instructions simply so that you can move the pointer around
00:24:33 <ais523> or you don't get very funge-like behaviour
00:25:39 <ais523> yep, although you're not gaining anything from the 2Dness of the language
00:25:43 <ais523> as the control flow is always the same
00:26:20 <Galaxtone> you could theoretically do what a brainfuck can do?
00:26:30 <ais523> well, the I/D machine has no control flow so you have to be a bit careful with how you do your I/O
00:26:37 <ais523> the normal way would be to use memory-mapping
00:27:01 <ais523> say "when the pointer goes to such and such an address, a value gets input to that address", probably a bit at a time as it's a very low-powered language
00:28:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Black Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55533&oldid=54111 * Ais523 * (+208) /* "A good GUI interpreter for Black" */ a rather late reply
00:28:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55534&oldid=55503 * Digital Hunter * (+117) added ... CATEGORIES!!! :)
00:30:07 <Galaxtone> wait that is the creator of surtic xd
00:32:20 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55535&oldid=55534 * Galaxtone * (+0)
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01:00:46 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55536&oldid=55535 * Digital Hunter * (+41)
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01:20:40 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55537&oldid=55526 * Saka * (+918) /* Examples */ hello, world!
01:22:35 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55538&oldid=55537 * Saka * (+165) /* Instructions */ stuff
01:22:52 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55539&oldid=55538 * Saka * (+8) /* Instructions */
01:41:54 <esowiki> [[Consequential]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55540&oldid=55482 * Xanman12321 * (+440) Re-added removed BF commands.
01:50:24 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55541&oldid=55539 * Saka * (+305) /* Examples */ cat
01:56:13 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55542&oldid=55541 * Saka * (+3577) yay I made an interpreter
02:00:45 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55543&oldid=55435 * Saka * (+169)
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02:39:41 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55544&oldid=55443 * Saka * (+242)
02:49:43 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55545&oldid=55542 * Saka * (+25) category
04:08:55 <Vorpal> <alercah> with an explicit destructor and placement new call <-- hm, I guess you are right.
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06:19:16 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55546&oldid=55536 * Galaxtone * (+45) Yah that's not correct
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06:24:07 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55547&oldid=55546 * Galaxtone * (+113) Added an example program.
06:24:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55548&oldid=55544 * Galaxtone * (+106) Added surtic example program over here aswell.
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06:53:41 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55549&oldid=55547 * Galaxtone * (+0) Strings start at 1 not 0
06:55:22 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55550&oldid=55549 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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10:25:45 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55551&oldid=55548 * Keymaker * (+487) Made one in Black.
10:35:28 <esowiki> [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55552&oldid=55532 * Keymaker * (+260) Linked the truth-machine as an another example.
10:38:30 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55553&oldid=55551 * Keymaker * (+3) Changed "I/O extension" in the comment to "output extension". My bad.
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11:27:13 <esowiki> [[Black]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55554&oldid=55552 * ZM * (+0) Correcting my name
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11:32:11 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55555&oldid=55553 * ZM * (+83) /* Implementations */
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12:31:06 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55556&oldid=55510 * Plokmijnuhby * (+148)
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13:18:05 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55557&oldid=55545 * Saka * (+440) /* Instructions */ More!
13:19:32 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55558&oldid=55557 * Saka * (-3445) /* Python */ Make it go to my GitHub page
13:22:33 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55559&oldid=55558 * Saka * (-206) /* CAT Program */ GET
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14:15:07 <HackEso> 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>. \ 11509:2018-04-14 <oerjän> slwd password//s,.$,, \ 11508:2018-04-14 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is way too late to fool anyone. \ 11444:2018-03-07 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is Schizophrenic Lagomorph \ 11345:2018-02-15 <int-̈e> learn The passw
14:19:44 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55560&oldid=55550 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* How it works */
14:20:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55561&oldid=55560 * Digital Hunter * (-41) /* 99 bottles of beer */
14:24:12 <int-e> `cwlprits password
14:24:14 <HackEso> oerjän int-̈e oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän oerjän shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf shachäf oerjän boil̈y oerjän int-̈e int-̈e oerjän shachäf shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän gameman̈j int-̈e oerjän int-̈e oerjän mromän oerjän oerjän oerjän mroman̈_
14:24:55 <int-e> hmm, what was the variant of culprits that counts?
14:27:45 <alercah> Vorpal: note that it may actually not be more efficient to use placement new
14:27:52 <alercah> and even insert_or_assign uses assignment
14:31:55 <int-e> `paste bin/culprits
14:31:56 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/culprits
14:33:11 <int-e> `culprits-c wisdom/password
14:33:13 <HackEso> 27 oerjän 8 int-̈e 5 shachäf 1 mroman̈_ 1 mromän 1 gameman̈j 1 boil̈y
14:33:27 <int-e> seems a bit biased
14:40:35 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55562&oldid=55559 * Saka * (-32) /* Interpreters */
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15:36:19 <Vorpal> <alercah> and even insert_or_assign uses assignment <-- yes I noticed that
15:37:04 <Vorpal> <alercah> Vorpal: note that it may actually not be more efficient to use placement new <-- would heavily depend on the type and other things
15:37:33 <Vorpal> if there are any secondary allocations due to data on heap for example it would definitely reduce the benefits
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17:55:49 <wob_jonas> fizzie: does HackEso have the channel logs mapped somewhere on the fs of the sandbox?
17:56:15 <wob_jonas> or are they on different machines? I can't follow what's on what machine now after the changes.
18:05:22 <fizzie> It's not mapped, but it's physically the same machine. There's the UML sandbox and a Linux container (systemd-machined) around the HackEso part, but no network separation.
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18:06:40 <wob_jonas> fizzie: wait what? no network separation? hackeso did have network separation. this increases hackeso's power a lot, as well as how much it can be abused
18:07:54 <fizzie> I mean "no network separation" in the sense that a network connection would be needed between the logs and HackEso.
18:08:48 <wob_jonas> I was thinking it wouldn't go through the network, just a file system mapped read-only, although a network could be useful for other services,
18:09:22 <int-e> fizzie: does the UML sandbox map a part of the linux fs where you could bind mount the logs? (not saying you should, just wondering whether it would work... actually from what I remember of umlbox, it could do the bind mount itself?)
18:10:06 <fizzie> I haven't set up any outgoing networking from the UML sandbox. The container has it's own network namespace with a point-to-point virtual interface that can access the host system, with pretty strict firewall rules.
18:10:52 <fizzie> int-e: I would need to first bind-mount the logs into the container, after which UML hostfs could expose them in the sandbox. But it's doable.
18:11:23 <wob_jonas> we don't want the logs accidentally deleted or worse
18:11:27 <fizzie> That said, I have some WIP code for the web logs frontend to offer a (trigram indexed regex) search facility, and my plans involved just exposing that (over HTTP) into the sandbox.
18:11:42 <int-e> fizzie: ah right, the outer container layer is new
18:11:54 <int-e> fizzie: still it sounds easier than making a network connection
18:12:28 <int-e> it's a database, right?
18:13:00 <fizzie> It's not really a database, but it's not plaintext either.
18:13:35 <fizzie> It's length-delimited protobufs, one file per day, Brotli-compressed.
18:14:12 <int-e> wob_jonas: the IRC logs that fizzie keeps... I recalled that http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-05-raw.txt aren't actually files but generated on the fly; the rest was assumptions
18:14:33 <wob_jonas> fizzie: approximately how big are the logs? I wonder if it's easier to download them (at least the last ten years or so)
18:14:56 <wob_jonas> as in, me having a local copy that I can search
18:15:02 <int-e> (I wish they were files so that wget -c could work :P)
18:15:21 <int-e> basically for the same reason
18:15:28 <fizzie> Let me get to a computer and I'll tell you. Pawing on the phone is getting a bit limiting.
18:21:00 <fizzie> int-e: It might be possible to make wget -c work, depending on how easy civetweb makes supporting range requests.
18:21:35 <wob_jonas> I guess you could cache the formatted versions of the last few days, and serve them directly
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18:24:23 <fizzie> I thought I also set up an (undocumented) URL pattern that let you download the raw protos, but I can't seem to see that anywhere in the code, so maybe I was dreaming.
18:25:09 <wob_jonas> fizzie: are there redirects that always go to yesterday's log and today's log respectively, regardless the date?
18:25:46 <fizzie> No. The closest to that is the stalker mode page, which returns the *contents* of yesterday's and today's logs.
18:26:02 <fizzie> (The HTML version also uses a websocket protocol to stream live data.)
18:26:41 <fizzie> (Stalker mode has the same .txt and -raw.txt formats available.)
18:28:18 <fizzie> The compressed protos (well, the last few days aren't actually compressed; it's a separate step that runs by cron and does all but the last few days) take up about 120 mebibytes. I don't remember how much the -raw.txt format takes.
18:28:40 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55563 * Digital Hunter * (+0) Created blank page
18:29:03 <wob_jonas> the raw text won't be much bigger either than
18:29:13 <wob_jonas> I mean, perhaps only twice or three times as big
18:29:23 <fizzie> They do compress pretty well. But not more than an order of magnitude.
18:29:45 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I have a copy somewhere of the codu.org logs, since that's where I backfilled the data from (mostly).
18:30:21 <wob_jonas> ah! I was wondering how you got the old logs
18:30:42 <fizzie> Ah, there we go. 488 mebibytes, for logs up to 2016-04-03-raw.txt.
18:31:15 <fizzie> The gap from there to the start of the 'esowiki' bot comes from my personal logs, which you can actually tell if you look at the raw files because all the microsecond timestamps are 0.
18:31:54 <wob_jonas> and I can skip the early weeks if I want
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18:58:37 <HackEso> ysaclist 76: boily shachaf
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19:52:59 <esowiki> [[Turing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55564 * Joshop * (+901) Created page with "Turing is [[Turing complete]]. It simulates a Turing machine. == Specifying the machine == Turing uses a binary format. First you must specify how many symbols you are using...."
20:01:15 <wob_jonas> question. for a variation of BASIC that supports both 32-bit integer and bigint types, what sigils would you use for those types, and what names would you use for the equivalents of the DEFINT and CINT functions?
20:03:44 <wob_jonas> or if it has both 32-bit and 64-bit ints. 16-bit ints are such a past thing.
20:08:32 <\oren\> 🍁🍁Patriots buy only genuine Canadian maple syrup. 🍁
20:09:41 <\oren\> wob_jonas: sigil + for integer, # (number sign) for bignum
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20:12:17 <wob_jonas> \oren\: wouldn't that be syntactically ambiguous? as in, does F+(3) could mean indexing the variable F+ with 3, or adding 3 to the variable F
20:12:33 <wob_jonas> also, # usually means "double-precision float", although not necessarily IEEE double-precision float
20:13:31 <wob_jonas> the normal sigils are % for 16-bit integer, ! for single float, # for double float, & for 32-bit integer, and $ for string
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20:25:08 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well the + operator is unecessary anyway. x--y works fine for x+y
20:27:26 <wob_jonas> \oren\: not for 32-bit integers, since basic errors on an overflow
20:27:35 <\oren\> although maybe there are better candidates that aren't used in basic
20:27:48 <wob_jonas> also, this hypothetical version wants to at least somewhat resemble BASIC
20:28:01 <wob_jonas> \ is tricky, some BASICs use it as integer division, and I sort of like that
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20:28:37 <wob_jonas> you can use @, which some basics use as a sigil, or lots of other characters
20:28:54 <wob_jonas> although @ does have other uses, I think they don't conflict a sigil
20:31:02 <\oren\> `tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
20:31:03 <HackEso> I think you mean "@tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish? " instead?
20:31:04 <wob_jonas> you could use certain characters that are unused by most basics, except perhaps as extra identifier characters with an iso646-based character set, namely []~{}
20:31:08 <\oren\> @tell oerjan how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> or you could use some characters that don't conflict with being a sigil, like ?
20:31:47 <wob_jonas> oh, also ` is free in all basics I know
20:32:12 <wob_jonas> | might be the best actually, because you can say it's an arbitrarily long line, representing an arbitrarily bit integer
20:32:41 <wob_jonas> you could also use double sigils, like %% && %& &% %# but that gets ugly
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20:35:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: worked for perl? or did it
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20:37:00 <\oren\> it seems like everyone prefers the -> notation in perl
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