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00:44:10 <zzo38> I made a lot more work on "Game of XYZABCDE" (although still is not quite finish being made, yet). You have fallen from the sky because your wing suddenly broke when you were trying to go to Mornington Crescent and now you are badly injured. But, this is ZZT so there are magic diamonds that can help you!
00:46:27 <shachaf> Oops, I was going to suggest a golf but I just realized it doesn't work.
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00:56:52 <zzo38> If you push zero to try to call the operator, they call the operetta instead.
00:58:27 <oerjan> i just tested something with ghci (still on 8.0.1 something so might have been fixed), apparently ^G is a legal identifier character, i think that's a bug.
00:59:01 <oerjan> (i was seeing if there were any control characters that could work instead of newline, might have shortened quine 2)
00:59:45 <oerjan> time to check the response...
00:59:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you disallowing __LINE__ because it depends on the context?
01:01:41 <oerjan> actually i didn't think too much about it, after i saw __TIME__ had a guaranteed length
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01:03:25 <oerjan> hm no one's commented, i guess that means no one's worried about the few half-fishy things i did
01:04:19 <oerjan> (in particular not having any delimiter after the pragma)
01:04:20 <shachaf> You mean having both an IO action and functions of one unused argument?
01:04:54 <shachaf> It's not just that there's no delimiter, really. The pragma and the rest of the program need to be separated.
01:04:58 <oerjan> the IO action, but other do the same thing so i didn't really expect any trouble.
01:05:09 <oerjan> shachaf: it actually doesn't, check the TIO
01:05:43 <oerjan> it's completely legal to put a definition on the same line, although it wreaks havoc on the indentation
01:05:52 <oerjan> the Try it online link
01:06:06 <oerjan> (legal haskell, that is)
01:06:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, right, I was thinking of the other thing which was an IO action.
01:10:35 <oerjan> shachaf: my reason was that usually, a PPCG answer with an anonymous function + some other definitions looks like a number of definitions except for leaving out the "f=" or whatever for the anonymous function
01:11:24 <oerjan> and if that's the general way of formatting it, you shouldn't need a delimiter if you don't need one when the f= _is_ there.
01:11:38 <oerjan> although i haven't actually seen that written anywhere
01:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i see what you mean with line, if i know it's the first line it's a much shorter pattern match
01:13:31 <shachaf> Or even a two- or three-digit number.
01:13:35 <oerjan> still, that feels a bit cheaty with an anonymous function
01:13:55 <oerjan> which is sort of "copy this anywhere"
01:14:00 <shachaf> Well, there ought to be a standard specification for what it means to define a function.
01:14:07 <shachaf> What context it's defined in.
01:14:29 <oerjan> it's hard to make anything that fits all the languages used on PPCG
01:14:48 <shachaf> Sure, you can define it per-language.
01:15:14 <oerjan> there might be something about using __LINE__, many languages have CPP
01:15:51 <oerjan> hm i recall a challenge that came up in
01:15:57 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out a way to make mempty work.
01:16:04 <shachaf> But thata'd be too much of a change.
01:16:28 <oerjan> too many letters from the first one
01:16:49 <shachaf> Getting rid of mappend in the first one is doable but there are too many other letters.
01:16:59 <oerjan> it's a miracle that the functions used in 1 don't overlap with the show used in 2, already
01:17:41 <oerjan> i had a brief period when i forgot mappend was there, and was trying to think up some crazy stuff with lex and cycle
01:17:42 <shachaf> Actually maybe it's too tricky.
01:17:55 <oerjan> (which were the functions that were then left)
01:18:13 <shachaf> concatMap isn't available, and list comprehensions aren't either
01:18:32 <oerjan> the original quine 1 was adapted from used <>, but > is too essential
01:20:38 <oerjan> the lex and cycle thing was for getting the empty string in 3, btw
01:21:05 <oerjan> although it required _some_ `String` value to start with, but it could have been undefined
01:21:29 <oerjan> unfortunately i don't think undefined can be made with just lambdas. oh wait...
01:21:46 <lambdabot> "a*Exception: <interactive>:3:5-9: Missing field in record construction
01:22:21 <oerjan> (:){} gives a nearly undefined string, and could be used in 3.
01:22:28 <oerjan> however, still mappend is there in 1.
01:22:37 <oerjan> lessee, how would that work...
01:23:09 <doesthiswork> I just checked Kaplan's book on little languages from the university library
01:23:20 <oerjan> is there a way to get lex to fail...
01:25:34 <oerjan> bah that was the only short one with only quine 3 chars
01:25:54 <oerjan> i mean with just 2 bytes
01:26:04 <oerjan> unless there's something else that fails...
01:26:46 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEl'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:26:48 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'D'
01:26:59 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:00 <lambdabot> "\NUL\SOH\STX\ETX\EOT\ENQ\ACK\a\b\SO\SI\DLE\DC1\DC2\DC3\DC4\NAK\SYN\ETB\CAN\...
01:27:20 <oerjan> > [c | c <- ['\CAN'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:22 <lambdabot> "\CAN\EM\SUB\ESC\FS\GS\RS\US\"'\DEL"
01:27:30 <shachaf> > [ord c | c <- ['\NUL'..'\DEL'], lex (c:"test") == []]
01:27:31 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,34,...
01:28:11 <oerjan> > lex ("''" ++ undefined)
01:28:41 <oerjan> shachaf: we don't want __LINE__
01:28:54 <oerjan> this was hypothetical for getting rid of the CPP
01:29:29 <oerjan> hah i was just typing that
01:29:41 <oerjan> however, that has the wrong type...
01:29:54 <oerjan> :t lex('\'':'\'':(:){})
01:30:16 <oerjan> :t lex('\'':'\'':(:){})>>(:){}
01:30:22 <oerjan> > lex('\'':'\'':(:){})>>(:){}
01:30:54 <oerjan> so just lex is enough. sorry about that e...
01:31:58 <shachaf> And that's just used for mappend?
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01:36:12 <shachaf> oerjan: man, haskell is scow for golfing
01:38:31 <oerjan> haskell does pretty well on these restricted source challenges for a "mainstream" language
01:38:57 <shachaf> A lot of languages would require { or ( for everything.
01:39:08 <shachaf> have you considered a special kind of golfing where your goal is to reduce execution time instead of source code size
01:39:15 <shachaf> i hear that type is in high demand hth
01:39:26 <oerjan> you could say i've just proved haskell contains 3 separate languages with disjoint character sets :P
01:39:57 <oerjan> shachaf: fastest-code is a PPCG tag, but it doesn't really interest me
01:40:42 <shachaf> oerjan: now prove these languages tc hth
01:42:52 <oerjan> i think the language of quine 2 obviously is
01:43:01 <zzo38> If I want to improve speed I can use assembly language for the specific computer that the program is designed for, if the program is designed for only one computer
01:43:08 <oerjan> it has top level equations and list notation
01:43:27 <oerjan> the language of quine 3 may have trouble doing non-terminating stuff
01:43:54 <oerjan> because with only lambdas, everything must be simply typed
01:44:14 <shachaf> Of course code written in assembly still has nondeterministic runtime.
01:44:46 <oerjan> language of quine 1, tricky to say, it'll probably have to steal some more letters from the others at least
01:44:46 <zzo38> Not if it is written for a reasonable computer.
01:46:17 <oerjan> if language 2 can lose "show", language 1 might be in better shape
01:46:35 <oerjan> then it has basically any builtins it wants
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01:46:57 <oerjan> although hm, it might not have any way to bracket things
01:46:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Which reasonable computers do you write for?
01:47:30 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you can use fmap fmap fmap hth
01:47:40 <oerjan> if it stole {} from 3 it might have do{...}
01:47:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Famicom and MIX and MMIX (although different implementations of MMIX will have different things with the speed, such as, some might use deterministic runtime while other implementations might not)
01:48:22 <oerjan> shachaf: sure. or fmap`id`fmap`id`fmap to avoid whitespace
01:49:43 <shachaf> Though I guess that can be problematic.
01:51:11 <oerjan> actually as i discovered a litle while ago, there are several control chars that can replace space, so just use that
01:53:36 <oerjan> i now remember that fmap for bracketing thing, unfortunately i think the fmaps themselves still needed bracketing, or at least i didn't finish proving they don't
01:54:02 <oerjan> fmap^Mfmap^Mmap`id`fmap^Mfmap just trips off the tongue
01:55:10 <oerjan> it still doesn't require monadic values
01:55:39 <oerjan> oh i guess we wanted to avoid o
01:59:14 <oerjan> ... `id`let in ... is a reasonable substitute for $
01:59:36 <oerjan> well on the right side, at least
02:02:46 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal swatty toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:03:29 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfer toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:22:08 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:33:29 <shachaf> Hmm, what's the second derivative of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1?
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02:58:54 <shachaf> I guess one thing you can say is DDf(x,y)(dx1,dy1)(dx2,dy2) = 2 dx1 dx2 + 2 dy1 dy2
02:59:14 <shachaf> And another thing you can say is, if x^2 + y^2 = 1, then x d^2x + dx^2 + y d^2y + dy^2 = 0
02:59:31 <shachaf> Which you can work into e.g. d^2y/dx^2 = -1/y^3 with reasonable assumptions?
02:59:40 <shachaf> How do you reconcile these two things?
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04:11:01 <oerjan> time to check if my guess for girl genius is right...
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04:12:03 <oerjan> hm seems i'll have to wait another update
04:12:20 <doesthiswork> battersea looks a little more sea battered in europa than in europe
04:13:51 <oerjan> . o O ( attempt no landing there )
04:14:32 <tswett> I'm creating a programming language, woo.
04:14:45 <zzo38> What programming language are you creating?
04:14:50 <oerjan> isn't there enough woo in the world
04:14:57 <tswett> Well, it's called Koios.
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04:15:18 <tswett> It's gonna be, like... it's gonna involve...
04:15:24 <tswett> It's gonna be pretty cool, in a theoretical way.
04:15:40 <tswett> Oh, also, I discovered my fetish for gay airplanes.
04:16:12 <tswett> I don't remember whether I was intending for an "empty type" to have one instance, or no instances.
04:16:22 <tswett> I do remember that this is pretty important.
04:17:00 <rdococ> This channel never fails to confuse me. Not in terms of the programming language terminology but in terms of what seems to be absolutely piles upon piles of inside jokes.
04:17:45 <tswett> What, the gay airplane thing? That's just me being weird because I think I can get away with it.
04:18:03 <zzo38> That is what this IRC is; this IRC is confuse.
04:18:50 <doesthiswork> there is a large amount of gay airplane porn on the internet, it's one of the classic "what hath man wrought" examples
04:19:21 <rdococ> I was talking about other things such as HackEso and... well, I don't have a list of them on hand.
04:20:39 <rdococ> Building on that, the boolean type should have three
04:21:27 <tswett> Ratbat, AeroIngo... yeah, they're the big ones.
04:21:40 <doesthiswork> right, although I think I can make a reasonable arguement that there should be four boolean values
04:22:29 <doesthiswork> proven true, proven false, proven both, not proven either
04:23:08 <rdococ> tswett: Arrays, lists or their equivalents should start at 1/sqrt(2)
04:24:26 <doesthiswork> arrays should linearly interpolate between their values so as to handle real indexes
04:24:53 <zzo38> But what if you don't want linear interpolation and you want a different kind instead?
04:25:21 <oerjan> polynomial interpolation...
04:25:42 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Corresponding to closed, open, clopen, and neither?
04:26:09 <zzo38> The programming language XISYNTH actually does something like that, but it uses cubic interpolation instead.
04:27:04 <doesthiswork> shachaf: I'm not a topology expert, but yes the meanings seem the same
04:27:30 <shachaf> I don't think they're the same but they're related.
04:28:12 <oerjan> did you know there are 14 (iirc) sets you can construct from a given one by applying closure, complement and union?
04:28:59 <oerjan> clearly you need a boolean that tells everything about whether each of those contains the original set
04:29:02 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratowski%27s_closure-complement_problem
04:29:34 <oerjan> it would include things like "has empty interior"
04:29:52 <shachaf> How many are there for Alexandrov spaces?
04:30:18 <oerjan> i don't even remember what that is. one of the Tn axioms?
04:30:32 <shachaf> Arbitrary intersections of open sets are open.
04:31:12 <shachaf> Maybe that doesn't even make a difference?
04:35:39 <oerjan> hm that page's introduction doesn't seem to include union, either that follows or i misremembered
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04:47:17 <tswett> I told y'all about my favorite axiom of separation, right?
04:47:45 <tswett> For lack of a better term, I'll call it the W criterion.
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04:48:11 <tswett> A W space is a topological space S where, given any two distinct points x and y in S, there exists a subset of S containing exactly one of those points.
04:48:45 <oerjan> just a subset? sounds easy.
04:49:29 <tswett> It's a very easy criterion.
04:50:11 <oerjan> it would be so much harder if the subset had to be either open or closed
04:52:15 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i'm getting a vague vibe that i once before thought about the problem with union, and that there are then infinitely many with some simple product space construction
04:57:00 <shachaf> "A few years ago I proposed a challenging Monthly problem (11059) that essentially asks this question for the operations of closure, complement, and union in a topological space. It does turn out there's a space containing a singleton that generates infinitely many sets under the three operations, but it's a bit tricky to find."
04:58:44 <oerjan> that does sound a bit harder.
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09:03:22 <Cale> shachaf: David Dineen Porter posted some new videos on his channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_BdAW_Eqt0
09:12:01 <shachaf> Is this `caleyoutubesubscriptionlist?
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10:45:07 <HackEso> 1/1:trantor//Coruscant is a planet covered entirely by a city. It is the capital of the Galactic Empire, and the home for the biggest library in it. \ dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth? \ usa//USA apparently doesn't stand for United State Automaton. \ ä//Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ progress//Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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10:59:50 <wob_jonas> oerjan: control-G is an identifier character? are any other ascii control characters identifying characters?
11:00:40 <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, are any of the control characters infix operator names?
11:04:40 <wob_jonas> shachaf: how would __LINE__ help? the preprocessor expands it to an integer, not to a string. it doesn't help you get a string. do you mean __FILE__?
11:07:13 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> oh don't have b" => what? I thought you were only using b as an arbitrary identifier character, and you could replace it with some other letter, although it might make the code a few characters longer if it's above l
11:14:57 <wob_jonas> "<tswett> I don't remember whether I was intending for an "empty type" to have one instance, or no instances." => the empty type defaults to int, with a warning. perhaps you want an empty struct (or empty tuple) which has one possible value, or an empty enum (empty distingiushed union) which has no possible values.
11:15:10 <wob_jonas> you can also call the latter two unit type and void type
11:15:39 <wob_jonas> it can't be "void type", that's tainted, means one value or no value depending on where you grew up
11:15:50 <wob_jonas> how about the unit type and the diverging type?
11:15:58 <wob_jonas> or the unit type and the noreturn type?
11:17:06 <wob_jonas> "<doesthiswork> arrays should linearly interpolate between their values so as to handle real indexes" => you want paths in metafont for that
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11:43:25 <Cale> shachaf: haha, just a comedian who I suspect you might like given that you like supermega comics' style of humour
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17:24:28 <\oren\_> I need a command for "kill this process id and anything that was started in the same hour"
17:30:11 <int-e> . o O ( kill -9 -1 )
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17:42:18 <\oren\_> actually waht I really would like is a find style interface for processes
17:43:14 <\oren\_> psfind -command "some_executable*" -starttime "wednesday night" -kill
17:44:22 <int-e> there's pgrep but it doesn't filter by starting time
17:45:06 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/992418511921336321
17:47:25 * int-e eyes \oren\_ questioningly
17:47:57 <\oren\_> "bring the enemy ships closer, I want to use my medieval chinese sword on them"
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17:49:51 <wob_jonas> https://www.xkcd.com/1989/ => the H stands for hairy, right?
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17:52:05 <HackEso> IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience".
17:54:22 <int-e> flight of the humble bee
17:54:37 <int-e> or perhaps it should be "fight" or "fright"
17:56:28 <wob_jonas> I think tbh stands for "big hairy toe", the initials are in a strange order as a compromise between english and french
17:56:54 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
17:57:06 <HackEso> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
17:57:22 <wob_jonas> or maybe it stands for "hairy big toe"
17:58:17 <int-e> (CLOP is the sequel to QWOP)
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18:04:53 <HackEso> 7770:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In My Holy Omniscience". \ 7769:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In my holy omniscience". \ 7768:2016-05-04 <oerjän> learn IMHO means "In my humble omniscience".
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18:07:21 <int-e> `learn SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home".
18:07:23 <HackEso> Learned 'smdh': SMDH is short for "Send My Daughter Home".
18:08:51 <int-e> (I don't recall ever seeing "SMDH" before today's xkcd.)
18:11:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Oh, you're quite right
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18:26:58 <HackEso> WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
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19:18:10 <quintopia> where can I find a Brainfuck to Turing machine compiler?
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19:48:06 <esowiki> [[OM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54964&oldid=54952 * Robertpmorton39 * (+0) Removed the DEF node type, as it is no longer in OM.
19:49:16 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54965&oldid=54964 * Robertpmorton39 * (+33)
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21:16:35 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54966&oldid=54866 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1078) Added a slightly suboptimal but at least working piece of code.
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21:32:19 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54967&oldid=54966 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2)
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21:47:35 <esowiki> [[Takeover]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54968&oldid=54967 * Plokmijnuhby * (-2)
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23:01:23 <zzo38> I thought a computer can have a sound chip design as: There are four channels, each has the registers: 16-bit current value, 16-bit current period, 16-bit next value, 16-bit next period, 6-bit volume, 1-bit expiry flag. All are write-only except that the expiry flag can be read and is cleared when read. It can also execute a user program, mostly independently of the rest of the computer.
23:01:40 <esowiki> [[DL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54969&oldid=50485 * Robertpmorton39 * (-3) Got rid of "new"
23:03:50 <zzo38> (Any other stuff, such as additional channels and special effects, must be done in software.)
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23:08:35 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54970&oldid=54965 * Robertpmorton39 * (+26)
23:10:10 <esowiki> [[OM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54971&oldid=54970 * Robertpmorton39 * (+36)
23:10:49 <esowiki> [[OM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54972&oldid=54971 * Robertpmorton39 * (-31)
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23:49:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 042300Z VRB02KT 8SM SCT004 BKN040 BKN100 OVC210 12/12 A2944 RMK SF4SC1AC2CI1 SLP971 DENSITY ALT 400FT
23:49:41 <boily> VRB02KT only? yeah right.
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23:50:52 <boily> . o O ( do they account for the whole velocity or only ground speed? what if it's winding downward? )
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23:54:32 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: control-G is an identifier character? are any other ascii control characters identifying characters? <-- no, most are simply a lexical error, although some are whitespace. i suspect the ^G is a bug and should be an error.
23:54:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: lexical error at character '\a'
23:55:09 <oerjan> which may be a pre-stage
23:55:39 <lambdabot> error: lexical error at character '\a'
23:56:36 * oerjan should upgrade ghc some day, may check if the bug is still there then
23:58:22 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, are any of the control characters infix operator names? <-- i don't think so, i think my tests would have caught that. might check ^G again though...
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