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00:05:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54909&oldid=54899 * BradensEsolangs * (+16) /* Lutfig */
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00:32:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://arin.ga/x5s6NH
00:34:04 <wob_jonas> that describes what I think is the correct semantics, although I have probably made some typos in there
00:35:07 <wob_jonas> Gimp 2.10's semantics is probably the best one, ff-composite should probably do something like that
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00:40:06 <wob_jonas> Also, this changes my previous assessment: Gimp 2.10 actually provides you all the meaningful combinations.
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00:46:31 <wob_jonas> More precisely, Gimp 2.10 provides all the meaningful combinations, and the meaningless one that clears everything as well; except that some combinations you can only get by swapping the source and destination, and you may have to make layer groups (parenthesis in the composition sequence) for that.
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01:36:36 <zzo38> I am trying to fix it now based on the information you have given me, and then we can test it.
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02:13:13 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, in most of the places where ff-composite uses the / operator on integers, you should probably change it to a round-to-nearest division.
02:15:27 <wob_jonas> I should be able to test ff-composite by eyeball comparing the output to what I get from gimp, on some suitable test images I make.
02:19:29 <zzo38> Now I wrote:   c=mode&1024?0:data[k].a*(65535LL-data2.a); e=mode&512?0:(65535LL-data[k].a)*data2.a; i=mode&256?0:data[k].a*(long long)data2.a;   and the FF macro as:   #define FF(A,z) s=data2.A; d=data[k].A; A=(long long)(z); A=A>65535?65535:A<0?0:A; A=(c*A+e*s+i*d)/65535;   Does this look better now? I rewrote the logic for the alpha output although it looks like it will be the same as it was before anyways.
02:20:37 <zzo38> (I didn't compile or commit it yet)
02:21:39 <zzo38> And then I have:   if(data[k].a=(c+e+i>4294836225?4294836225:c+e+i)/65535) r/=data[k].a,g/=data[k].a,b/=data[k].a;   (And, I suppose, like you, there is possibility I made mistakes too)
02:23:05 <zzo38> Well, I just tried it and it doesn't work either.
02:25:12 <zzo38> (Or maybe I made a different mistake)
02:26:56 <zzo38> One thing I see is that in the equations you have, xF is ignored if C=1, but you mention that for I=1.
02:26:59 <Cale> Hey shachaf, did you see the latest two supermega comix?
02:27:43 <zzo38> You also are inconsistent in what the most common composition function is.
02:28:03 <zzo38> I think those are mistakes you made which is what resulted in my mistakes and why it doesn't work.
02:31:14 <zzo38> wob_jonas: If you fix that document then I will fix my program too.
02:33:08 <shachaf> Cale: whoa, I didn't
02:40:00 <shachaf> `smlist
02:40:02 <HackEso> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
03:03:08 <esowiki> [[Lost]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54910&oldid=54880 * Wheatwizard * (+373) /* Deterministic programming in Lost */
03:05:05 <esowiki> [[Lost]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54911&oldid=54910 * Wheatwizard * (+151) /* Description */ Added description of wrapping
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03:27:45 <esowiki> [[Lost]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54912&oldid=54911 * Wheatwizard * (+444) /* Deterministic programming in Lost */ Added how one obtains the example program.
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08:45:06 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]]  https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54913&oldid=54909 * Oerjan * (+193) /* Lutfig */ 2016-2017
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08:51:40 <danil> Is a language implemented in a unimplemented programming language implemented?
08:52:49 <FireFly> good question
08:54:03 <danil> From one side it is, from the other it isnt.
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09:01:04 <danil> `8ball
09:01:05 <HackEso> My sources say no.
09:01:22 <danil> fungot Is a language implemented in a unimplemented programming language implemented?
09:01:22 <fungot> danil: sorry, i got the device btw, just need to dig up that quote, though for much of a human being, eating one shouldn't be a problem
09:02:57 <danil> ^ul (1)::~S
09:02:57 <fungot> 1
09:03:07 <shachaf> `addquote <fungot> danil: sorry, i got the device btw, just need to dig up that quote, though for much of a human being, eating one shouldn't be a problem
09:03:07 <fungot> shachaf: it's what i've been trying
09:03:09 <HackEso> 1323) <fungot> danil: sorry, i got the device btw, just need to dig up that quote, though for much of a human being, eating one shouldn't be a problem
09:03:47 <shachaf> fizzie: it may be time to add some safety features to fungot twh
09:03:47 <fungot> shachaf: the forum was down ( unreachable; the url gave a 404 error, or not saying anything about ppc, didn't know there could be
09:04:12 <danil> ^ul (1)::(0)~
09:04:29 <danil> ^ul (1)::(0)~S
09:04:29 <fungot> 1
09:06:14 <fizzie> shachaf: What sort of?
09:06:34 <fizzie> shachaf: By the way, just boarding a flight to MTV.
09:06:49 <fizzie> (Well, waiting to.)
09:07:18 <shachaf> Weren't you just here a month ago?
09:08:01 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm not sure but a lot of people seem to be making a lot of noise about AI safety nowadays.
09:08:11 <shachaf> I'm just worried about being eaten.
09:09:28 <fizzie> shachaf: I was, but that was just unfortunate scheduling. This time with more of the team.
09:10:16 <fizzie> Oh, that sort of safety. I thought botloop safety.
09:10:51 <danil> Had anyone implemented a refinement type esolang yet?
09:11:04 <Taneb> One channel I was in had a bot which ran brainfuck programs, and a bot which printed web page titles
09:11:19 <Taneb> One of my friends learnt brainfuck to get them to botloop
09:12:02 <shachaf> Did it just execute every line?
09:12:13 <oerjan> Taneb: hi did you see my fueue quines yet hth
09:12:40 <danil> what is a botloop?
09:13:02 <oerjan> danil: it's when two channel bots get into a loop responding to each other
09:13:12 <oerjan> or sometimes more than two
09:13:14 <danil> Ok.
09:13:15 <Taneb> oerjan: I did not!
09:13:40 <shachaf> is a botloop the least defined loop? what's a toploop?
09:14:44 <Taneb> shachaf: this is the webpage: https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
09:14:45 <shachaf> I guess a toploop is just a continuous function whose domain is a circle.
09:14:57 <Taneb> oerjan: that's really cool
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09:16:53 <oerjan> thanks
09:17:47 <shachaf> oerjan: itym fuines hth
09:17:53 <oerjan> OKAY
09:18:49 <shachaf> Taneb++ # Fueue
09:19:19 <shachaf> Also oerjan++ # fuines, I guess.
09:19:27 <shachaf> s/I guess//
09:19:34 <shachaf> I knew Fueue existed but I forgot about it.
09:20:33 <oerjan> shachaf: it comes with a ridiculously long explanation, if you click through to the PPCG post
09:26:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, was that actually a coincidence generated by fungot, or was that string lifted wholesale from the corpus?
09:26:26 <fungot> shachaf: i couldn't find
09:27:37 <fizzie> I don't feel checking on the phone. But it quotes verbatim quite often.
09:27:57 <fizzie> I think they're starting boarding soon. ->
09:28:06 <FireFly> enjoy flight
09:28:14 <shachaf> `revert
09:28:16 <HackEso> Done.
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09:33:50 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think of adding all immediately-reverted edits to scowrevs?
09:34:26 <oerjan> sounds scow hth
09:34:50 <oerjan> (also your revert was based on flimsy evidence)
09:35:14 <oerjan> anyway, later
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15:59:51 <danil> fungot: When is your birthday? Do bots have birthdays?
15:59:51 <fungot> danil: c/ fnord of facts! :p?
16:00:50 <wob_jonas> danil: it's Thursday
16:01:21 <danil> Was he released on Thursday?
16:01:47 <Taneb> Every Thursday?
16:02:41 <danil> 2 more days till fungots weekly birthday!
16:02:42 <fungot> danil: fnord/ extras/ stupidcovers/ fnord this algorithm on larger numbers still, if someone is crazy enough to ask for it as he did...
16:02:58 <danil> Fnord again?
16:03:11 <danil> s/2/3
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16:09:55 <danil> \quit
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17:43:46 <es111> hi
17:44:01 <es111> السلام عليكم
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17:46:48 <FireFly> Hm, and I was just checking to see if we have a wisdom.ar (but it seems not)
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19:39:13 <wob_jonas> `? tea
19:39:15 <HackEso> Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean.
19:39:16 <wob_jonas> `? coffee
19:39:17 <HackEso> Coffee is a strange brew. Enticing wisps of vapour catch the eye, the soul ensnared into dark vortices of flavour. Some minds mix in milk and sugar to counteract coffee's black magic.
19:42:18 <wob_jonas> ``` head wisdom/@(milk,cream,sugar,water,coke,drink,soda)
19:42:19 <HackEso> head: cannot open 'wisdom/@(milk,cream,sugar,water,coke,drink,soda)' for reading: No such file or directory
19:42:31 <wob_jonas> ``` head wisdom/@(milk|cream|sugar|water|coke|drink|soda)
19:42:32 <HackEso> ​==> wisdom/milk <== \ Milk is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can be extracted from cows. \  \ ==> wisdom/water <== \ Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens.
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19:57:29 <wob_jonas> ``` head wisdom/@(sun|moon|star)
19:57:30 <HackEso> ​==> wisdom/moon <== \ moon is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moony moon__ computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain \  \ ==> wisdom/sun <== \ The Sun *may* be retroreflectorey, it's hard to be sure.
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20:08:55 <oerjan> `learn Cream is what milk turns into once you beat it into submission.
20:08:58 <HackEso> Learned 'cream': Cream is what milk turns into once you beat it into submission.
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20:16:06 <arseniiv> hi all!
20:16:48 <arseniiv> may I ask if the following language idea already has a name somewhere
20:18:54 <FireFly> in general on IRC, feel free to ask
20:23:04 <arseniiv> idea: the source is a list of definitions; definition is of form `newName variables = applications of any of newName, variables and previous names to each other, or a single one of them`. And that's it, for each name is at most one definition, and there's no typing constraints or fancy pattern matching. (Details about IO and what name to evaluate at the program start are non-essential.) I feel this idea is so simple and elegant to be di
20:23:04 <arseniiv> scovered long ago before me, but don’t know how to find how many times and by what people
20:23:27 <arseniiv> thanks in advance)
20:24:57 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, something like that can work. if you allow partial applications and parenthesis on the right hand side, then you can basically do anything in it that you could do in untyped lambda calculus
20:25:52 <wob_jonas> if you don't allow partial applications (ML/Haskell-style currying) then it gets easier to implement, but you need to add some data constructors and deconstructors or something to store information in
20:26:06 <wob_jonas> I think that can work well to make a simple interpreter
20:26:25 <wob_jonas> you need to allow at least one level of parenthesis in the rhs of the functions definition though
20:26:57 <arseniiv> yeah, partial applications and parentheses are allowed! I have come to it thinking about unwieldiness of combinator calculus: expressions are too long
20:27:26 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: in that case it's basically as powerful as lambda calculus or combinator calculus
20:27:35 <wob_jonas> untyped
20:27:43 <oerjan> it's an equivalent syntax
20:27:49 <arseniiv> yeah I know :D But had it been unthought off really? Can’t believe!
20:28:04 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure _i've_ thought of it before.
20:28:10 <oerjan> and also that i wasn't the first
20:28:21 <oerjan> but i don't remember on the spot what it's called.
20:28:45 <oerjan> it's like a very minimalist haskell.
20:29:01 <arseniiv> I associate them too
20:29:17 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's more powerful because it's untyped
20:30:28 <wob_jonas> but yeah
20:30:35 <wob_jonas> also possibly a minimalist ML
20:30:44 <wob_jonas> depending on whether you evaluate it lazy or strict
20:31:13 <arseniiv> (I wanted to write something using this language and mention it somehow, but didn’t know how. At least you’ve loosen my concerns already, thanks)
20:31:54 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh, right, laziness and call-by-need should be a must in this language too (at least, in my preferred variant!)
20:32:26 <arseniiv> it will be more fun that way IMO
20:36:00 <wob_jonas> then it's sort of like untyped lambda calculus, with a syntax that's sometimes shorter and sometimes more verbose
20:36:12 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you also want to allow circular references between the names, right?
20:36:20 <wob_jonas> that is, letrec semantics
20:38:00 <arseniiv> I could live with self-calls (and calls to any name defined earlier, but not later). I could even without self-calls, but then we need to define `fix` and it has too cumbersome an expression
20:38:29 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it's not that cumbersome, since this is an untyped language, but ok
20:39:29 <arseniiv> so the user would need to pack letrec-related functions in a pair and define them in one sweep hahaha ]:)
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20:40:34 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I mean, it has a long expression in S K I combinators and it could have some smaller ones if we define more combinators, but I fear not much smaller overall
20:41:04 <wob_jonas> what? you're not restricted to S K I combinators here
20:41:10 <arseniiv> and when one permits self-calls, it is suddenly just a `fix f = f (fix f)`
20:41:22 <arseniiv> yeah I know, but we should define it through something anyway
20:41:59 <arseniiv> oh wait
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20:45:16 <arseniiv> yeah, it could definitely be quite small. Let’s take Y = λf.(λx.f(xx))(λx.f(xx)), then it’s definable in two lines! A f x = f (x x), fix f = (A f) (A f)
20:45:24 <arseniiv> I take my words back
20:46:40 <arseniiv> so one even doesn’t needs referencing the name in its defining expression to be sufficiently happy
20:49:27 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: basically if you have any expression in untyped lambda calculus, you can translate it to this language by turning each lambda into a new named function, where the first few parameters are the upvalues used in that lambda expression
20:49:42 <wob_jonas> s/used in/bound by/
20:52:31 <arseniiv> agree completely, I just for some reason have forgotten earlier about quite simple expressions for fixed-point combinators
20:52:56 <wob_jonas> `? y
20:52:57 <HackEso> Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
20:54:01 <arseniiv> oh, there is a bot here? Nice
20:54:33 <wob_jonas> most people here are bots
20:56:30 <arseniiv> :o well, I just realised my client colors users differently, should all HackEso-colored be bots too?
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20:57:06 <arseniiv> yeah it seems right: lambdabot, variable etc., mamma mia
20:57:12 <wob_jonas> skin color is not a useful way to distinguish between people
20:57:23 <arseniiv> :D
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20:57:54 <lob_jonas> now I'm green
20:58:09 <\oren\_> lob_jonas: no your're still orange
20:59:01 <arseniiv> lob_jonas: you turned black as bot in my KvIrc :D
21:01:19 <arseniiv> well, thank you all, it’s a very nice channel! I’ll go for now, and later look at the log, maybe someone names that thing in the meantime, it would be the icing on the cake!
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21:11:09 <oerjan> lob_jonas: you're still black hth
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21:35:32 <lob_jonas> fungot, what shape are your ears?
21:35:32 <fungot> lob_jonas: combinator theory: a function with the results
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22:01:59 <lob_jonas> `? cat
22:02:00 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
22:02:01 <lob_jonas> `? dog
22:02:03 <HackEso> dog? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:02:28 <lob_jonas> fungot, how many times a month do you go to real fast Nora's nailcare?
22:02:28 <fungot> lob_jonas: " esszet" seems to be using units and signatures, sorry for using that mental image. :s
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23:25:32 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you remember an example where turning off ScopedTypeVariables was tricky?
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23:34:14 <wob_jonas> `aglist 586
23:34:14 <HackEso> aglist 586: b_jonas shachaf
23:36:03 <wob_jonas> ``` echo wisdom/*lon
23:36:04 <HackEso> wisdom/epsilon wisdom/luftballon wisdom/melon
23:36:09 <wob_jonas> `? melon
23:36:10 <HackEso> A melon is a lemon whose spelling is bad.
23:36:20 <wob_jonas> `? luftballon
23:36:21 <HackEso> A Luftballon is an experimental weapon first developed by the German military in 1983 designed to scramble fighter jets, causing chaos and starting wars between their enemies.
23:48:51 <wob_jonas> `? mouse
23:48:52 <HackEso> mouse? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:59:35 <wob_jonas> ``` echo wisdom/*cha*
23:59:36 <HackEso> wisdom/4chan wisdom/chaos wisdom/char wisdom/character wisdom/diagram chasing wisdom/english channel wisdom/hexchat wisdom/hipchat wisdom/merchantable wisdom/schaf wisdom/shachaf wisdom/whatchamacallit
23:59:59 <wob_jonas> `? diagram chasing