< 1521676861 112791 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i probs can then < 1521676867 645988 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack < 1521676867 714371 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exchange.com/ < 1521676886 406820 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Client Quit < 1521676898 946681 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521676900 838006 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack < 1521676900 938254 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exchange.com/ < 1521676932 910955 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: to collapse nodes into components as they become strongly connected < 1521676949 331671 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :if arcs cant be deleted i mean < 1521677052 962299 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that means adding one edge can take time linear in the number of nodes. < 1521677062 884463 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course you should check TAOCP chapter 7.4 if it's released (even in preview form) by the time you need this. < 1521677119 387611 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, wait a moment, I don't think it's in there, but let me quickly check the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book and the ed. Iványi book in case it says something about this. < 1521677140 66000 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: have you tried searching the internet? you've given good keywords, like "online" and "streaming" and "strong components" < 1521677391 532736 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I might be missing it, but I don't see this mentioned in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book. However, it does talk about the union-find algorithm, which is the analog of this for undirected graphs, in ch. 21 of second ed., so you might try to follow the references given at the end of the chapter. < 1521677452 858035 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1521677488 83543 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521677548 236959 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Client Quit < 1521677654 732377 :Naergon!~Naergon@94.197.120.255.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1521677743 299127 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521677831 340926 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Client Quit < 1521677972 341510 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521678057 621796 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: try some web searches then < 1521678406 650218 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1521678467 21727 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1521679125 314601 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521679220 272888 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: a web search gives this article that might answer your question: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-19754-3_20 Luigi Laura; Federico Santaroni, "Computing Strongly Connected Components in the Streaming Model", (2011) In: Marchetti-Spaccamela A., Segal M. (eds) Theory and Practice of Algorithms in (Computer) Systems. Lect < 1521679220 373183 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ure Notes in Computer Science, vol 6595. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg < 1521679245 894207 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I was the one asking the question, not quintopia. < 1521679246 369678 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Client Quit < 1521679329 844506 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried searching the Internet but I don't think I've found a clear answer. < 1521679370 537179 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with SCCs is that a single edge can collapse n SCCs into one. Whereas a single undirected edge will only collapse two CCs into one. < 1521679416 337240 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521679466 532293 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well yes, so that only works if you count the runtime in an amortized way, in which case you pre-pay for collapsing any components when you create them, but you might not want that < 1521679481 844884 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what your requirements are < 1521679504 589936 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wanting an API like union-find < 1521679549 410320 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right, but is it fine if it's fast only in an amortized way? the undirected union-find is already fast only in that case I think < 1521679599 120367 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know what the possibilities are. < 1521679618 657819 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've wondered about this for a while. Whatever specific use case I had I've already forgotten about. < 1521679720 83194 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can find part of the above article at https://books.google.hu/books?id=tuBCHZQMLC8C&lpg=PP2&ots=481X0N2bbp&lr&hl=hu&pg=PA193 < 1521679800 721264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I didn't see that reference. < 1521680028 544269 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't expect anything faster than for the undirected version, because you can get the undirected version as a special case of the digraph version < 1521680040 390656 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1521680710 491648 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1521680913 108285 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloerjan < 1521680944 33689 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellonas < 1521680997 885835 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellOEbonjoRbonJorholAN < 1521681028 164814 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: perhaps you can help with shachaf's algorithms question < 1521681163 798567 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is scared of shachaf's questions lately
< 1521681184 967873 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :they tend to be about category wedge linear stuff i don't really know. < 1521681188 477925 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, want to debug opengl instead? < 1521681194 999451 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1521681199 384958 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1521681209 676371 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this one isn't, it's just plain algorithm theory < 1521681216 638182 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on that note, opengl is driving me insane at the moment) < 1521681217 957698 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortunately i don't know opengl at all, so i can easily excuse myself. < 1521681221 979100 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have an algebraic topology question if that helps < 1521681228 365353 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1521681243 751842 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if it's simple enough. < 1521681276 83393 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did once read enough to understand brouwer's theorem, but that was more than 15 years ago < 1521681298 837685 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*jordan-brouwer < 1521681338 899791 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although presumably brouwer's open mapping theorem too < 1521681370 685245 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1521681376 167116 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the one that implies that R^m is not actually homeomorphic to R^n, which is nice to know.) < 1521681383 113820 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m /= n) < 1521681389 986137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :p. sure you know more about wedge linear stuff than i do hth < 1521681411 442184 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh yeah, I know about that one < 1521681421 687350 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: don't really bet on it < 1521681431 827278 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a little written about it in my conference slides, although you won't find a proof there < 1521681478 13795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: What are some clever algorithms I don't know about? < 1521681497 62260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or anyone else < 1521681502 907959 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably an easier question < 1521681521 876285 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Jiří Matoušek has a definitive book on it by the way, and it's well-written < 1521681590 541390 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm tired, so I can only give a meta-answer to that: read Knuth's TAOCP; the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book; and the ed. Iványi book, they have lots of algorithms, and I'm quite sure there are so many you don't know of them that you can find one you don't know by choosing randomly and retrying < 1521681626 779877 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have lots of algorithms, but how many are clever? < 1521681660 186809 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you want specifically clever ones? < 1521681671 485483 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there was a question on MathOverflow or Cstheory SE asking for those < 1521681745 735702 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/189/8067 < 1521682016 268803 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mboonysoir, bonsœøirjan. < 1521682046 615221 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloily < 1521682140 147751 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wobon_jonasoir. < 1521682295 302317 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :bhelloily. < 1521682403 553750 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1521682801 919553 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: nostril. < 1521682801 994395 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i could say " the" < 1521682811 252531 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: die bart, die. < 1521682811 527045 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: that's the difference, as i'm sure you have a wacom tablet thingy. turns out it was too easy < 1521682824 510584 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: my bro has one; should I borrow it? < 1521682824 618957 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: there are _way_ too many things about their performance too. < 1521682883 585867 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That has some good answers < 1521682901 217596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm irritated to have clicked a stackoverflow referral link < 1521683219 648475 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: CONSTANT CHICKEN < 1521683540 861019 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521683572 773397 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you know those are insecure and of an obvious format, right? you can just remove the user id from the end and get a valid link, with the id of the question or answer before it < 1521683587 809609 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, that's what I do when I'm at my computer < 1521683613 674187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my phone IRC client doesn't have an easy way to copy a link without opening it in a browser < 1521683646 156080 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: also the whole system changed at some point about a year ago, since then referral links with a referrer within SE still count, so now I get ten times more referrals, mostly from internal links in comments and answers < 1521683674 527965 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a question about this with two different proposed explanations for why it's changed < 1521684048 693916 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've even put referral links in some data.stackexchange.com queries, like http://data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/648267/list-bounties . That site has two shortcut ways to create link to questions or answers, but it doesn't automatically produce referral links because the login system isn't connected to the SE logins, so it doesn't know which use < 1521684048 764343 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 PRIVMSG #esoteric :r to use. < 1521684694 805405 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521684752 185166 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1521684999 7276 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1521685092 836919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Hakr14 5* 10New user account < 1521685162 62439 :wob_jonas!b03f18c6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.198 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client > 1521685464 82578 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54438&oldid=54418 5* 03Hakr14 5* (+362) 10/* Introductions */ > 1521685582 514770 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Hakr1414]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54439 5* 03Hakr14 5* (+131) 10Created page with "Not the best, but there's worse. I'm making an esolang! If I ever finish the interpreter I'll make a page for it and link it here." < 1521685870 989109 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny, i'm modifying the underload reduction to fueue in order to remove a "shortcut" that wraps data around the queue, and none of the first three commands got longer < 1521686183 778935 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1521686948 670547 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph but the composition needs complete redoing. < 1521686997 718230 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521687286 432297 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521689378 4248 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1521690848 678180 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:472:9436:2b8a:6b22:8aae QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1521691548 243891 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9960:472:8121:fea3:d07f:9149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521691672 655110 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1521694301 64906 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521695676 669848 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521696519 767761 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1521701277 755370 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1521701920 597480 :uplime!nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers QUIT :Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish! < 1521702279 576210 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1521703580 622585 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1521703586 396902 :zemhill_!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1521704428 658951 :seal67!uid181148@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tujkskwbmklqhhsj JOIN :#esoteric < 1521704475 164613 :seal67!uid181148@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tujkskwbmklqhhsj PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1521704590 911470 :seal67!uid181148@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tujkskwbmklqhhsj QUIT :Client Quit < 1521704621 739908 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric > 1521704773 775927 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54440 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+2130) 10Created page with "== ABOUT `LML == `LML pronounced as 'elemel' is an esoteric programming language made by Saketh Suresh in 2018.The language uses 7 commands. == HOW IT WORKS == `LML works wit..." > 1521704808 208673 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54441&oldid=54428 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+11) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ > 1521704872 885675 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Sane theinsane14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54442&oldid=54435 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (-32) 10 < 1521704975 403553 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521705095 422613 :mniip!mniip@haskell/developer/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521705747 669871 :Naergon!~Naergon@94.197.120.255.threembb.co.uk QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521706030 709195 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1521706848 532637 :mniip!mniip@haskell/developer/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1521707161 102700 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1521707334 421381 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1521709532 2971 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1521711251 45480 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zex1glfa1xy3qc.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1521714377 242266 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: trace for matrices is the sum of the diagonal, right? < 1521714426 73681 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I was thinking of a different property < 1521714450 399852 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brain somehow managed to consistently go tr(AB) = tr(A)tr(B) < 1521714466 475208 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: why are you closing your local maplin :( < 1521714481 108946 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: we're closing all maplins < 1521714483 689704 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has been decreed < 1521714499 706268 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :undecree it < 1521714532 714934 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is Too Late < 1521714548 641435 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they went into administration last month) < 1521714718 825650 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: also, I don't think there is a ring with two elements where 1+1=1, as then there's no subtraction < 1521714732 668943 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be a rig, though (one of those many fun less than a ring acronyms) > 1521714766 723807 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54443&oldid=54440 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+26) 10 > 1521714782 823809 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54444&oldid=54443 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+0) 10 < 1521714788 440007 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(these are also called semirings I think) > 1521714864 467037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54445&oldid=54444 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+7) 10 > 1521714894 689541 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07`LML14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54446&oldid=54445 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+6) 10 > 1521715269 50968 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Sane theinsane14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54447&oldid=54442 5* 03Sane theinsane 5* (+8) 10 < 1521715498 415141 :Naergon!~Naergon@unaffiliated/naergon JOIN :#esoteric < 1521718480 346472 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1521718789 6131 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521719017 679644 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a46c74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1521719474 747557 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51a46c74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1521719493 299211 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1521721569 70638 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1521721673 527614 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1521721710 792599 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1521727813 334255 :uplime!~nchambers@learnprogramming/staff/nchambers JOIN :#esoteric < 1521730628 872850 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521730907 546165 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION feels an urge to apologise to their hygrometer
< 1521730944 318068 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :😸 < 1521730983 66379 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spilled water on it, which I imagine is one of the worst things you can do to a hygrometer < 1521731007 353814 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after wiping it off, though, it seems to be more under control < 1521731113 625239 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521731113 730107 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOO! < 1521731125 210254 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that works in context :-) < 1521731179 770876 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll no longer be able to just search for "pool" in rules text in magiccards.info to find cards that produce mana and almost nothing else (Omnath is one of the exceptions) < 1521731183 719677 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1521731187 425374 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epic Fail < 1521731188 272851 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, ais523 < 1521731198 280459 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the M:tG announcements < 1521731216 416708 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "add" is still likely to work < 1521731231 79452 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that word is rarely used in other contexts < 1521731247 860052 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the problem is that "add" occurs inside other words as an infix < 1521731255 767594 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least they didn't get rid of the legend rule, that'd have broken the setup for my M:tG waterfall model < 1521731267 82345 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "add " then? < 1521731271 855311 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even "add {" < 1521731273 477274 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1521731283 32444 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said in magiccards.info . in a local search, I can use regexen or whatever < 1521731298 981819 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think that works, some abilities say like "add X green mana" < 1521731299 243308 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: to the rules updates? it was on dailymtg.com yesterday < 1521731301 73169 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we need to have a serious discussion < 1521731308 321829 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the plural of regex and unix < 1521731313 161357 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: also scryfall can regex Oracle text < 1521731317 158178 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :regexen unices? < 1521731322 369411 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :regexes unixes? < 1521731323 941850 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name calciform pool < 1521731331 573865 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"unixen" was historically used but mostly as a joke < 1521731338 138443 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/dominaria-frame-template-and-rules-changes-2018-03-21 < 1521731342 591379 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen anyone use "regices" but I kind-of like it < 1521731363 259349 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: and you want to interrupt our non-serious discussion with a serious discussion? do you even know this channel? < 1521731371 530696 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :regices is obviously the plural of regice https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Regice_(Pok%C3%A9mon) < 1521731372 59468 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically speaking, though, "regex" is an abbreviation for "regular expression", so "regexes" would be correct; the "ex" isn't a suffix but a prefix) < 1521731372 826159 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "regexes" by the way < 1521731374 978449 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calciform Pools \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}, {T}: Put a storage counter on Calciform Pools. \ {1}, Remove X storage counters from Calciform Pools: Add X mana in any combination of {W} and/or {U} to your mana pool. \ TSP-U < 1521731385 538709 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Pokémon names pluralise to themselves, all of them do < 1521731393 545782 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can also discuss "regex" versus "regexp" versus "regular expression" versus "rational expression" < 1521731406 527340 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: now that's just a made up rule < 1521731413 911441 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably because of a decision made by the localisers early on; Japanese doesn't use plurals so the game's code didn't have any pluralisation handling < 1521731442 970250 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so I'm guessing the localisers decided that all Pokémon names would self-pluralise so that they didn't have to try to handle that case using awkward phrasing < 1521731451 879278 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also other forms of plurals would take up more space in the precious small display < 1521731468 151191 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's hardly any time in the games where plural would make sense < 1521731475 531710 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they even have these strange characters in the font that represent multiple letters < 1521731480 598557 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the game boy game that is < 1521731488 2593 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: yes, that too < 1521731489 854541 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: have you seen some of the ridiculous phrasing that the games use to avoid having to say plurals? < 1521731502 40345 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "a/an" prefixes, which are also a problem? < 1521731506 836459 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You found one POTION!" < 1521731507 807891 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly it's not so in M:tG. M:tG is full of cards saying "all elves you control" < 1521731509 550660 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"POTION! You found two!" < 1521731523 230621 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hehe < 1521731540 44212 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven't actually played the game < 1521731540 852257 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: disallow receiving multiple potions at once < 1521731552 779482 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i just fix all the i18n problems? < 1521731559 940048 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it wasn't popular here because the young kids who played game boy didn't speak enough english or japanese back then < 1521731584 121371 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: what if you want to buy or sell them in the store? < 1521731584 222046 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: I doubt it < 1521731595 418842 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even as late as gen 5, the version released in the UK had some interesting localisation problems < 1521731600 522643 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. asking whether we preferred football or soccer < 1521731606 374319 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: selling more items in a single setting in blasphemy < 1521731617 862541 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I hope the options there were "YES" and "NO" < 1521731623 915428 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I skipped 5th gen) < 1521731642 100280 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: and do you play football or soccer? < 1521731653 603524 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: no < 1521731665 277264 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that settles it < 1521731665 903548 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sadly not < 1521731673 45988 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, football appears in pokemon? < 1521731680 802585 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but soccer does < 1521731686 533414 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: lots of real world things appear in Pokémon < 1521731700 28625 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: lots of real world things, sure < 1521731701 521049 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like bicycles! < 1521731702 35063 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :like candies and shrooms < 1521731706 174158 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, bicycles < 1521731713 898248 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pokemarts < 1521731718 845490 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in gen 5 they have sports arenas where people play different sports each day, you don't actually get to watch though < 1521731721 358433 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: just like in real life, eating rare candy makes you stronger < 1521731726 18506 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but football? is that in a video game, or a TCG, or in the anime, or something else? < 1521731734 48899 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly an excuse for recurring battles which you play against the spectators < 1521731743 803937 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's a football stadium containing football players < 1521731748 387982 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're not actually playing football < 1521731754 783375 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just running around and occasionally challenging you to battles < 1521731777 694365 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :is gen 5 the one with garbagemon? < 1521731794 145138 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, so you meet other trainers who challenge you saying "I don't like football, while all the people are watching the superbowl final, let's spend time more constructively"? < 1521731802 47255 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't played much of Gen 6 either... < 1521731808 346418 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so it's the video game? < 1521731809 714043 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Trubbish? yes < 1521731818 160194 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... um... a video game? < 1521731832 297247 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant garbodor but anyway < 1521731863 24968 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1521731869 915429 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these card wording stranges will seem so strange to me < 1521731874 216682 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :😸 < 1521731884 306708 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess backwards too, the old wordings will seem strange to new players < 1521731891 278675 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Pokémon was originally a video game < 1521731905 798661 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but you're talking about gen 5, that's no longer "originally" < 1521731923 135692 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they made an anime of the video game, a video game of the anime, a trading card game of the game and/or anime (possbily both merged), and a video game of the trading card game < 1521731931 25525 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a number of spinoff video games too < 1521731979 900395 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally the Pokémon universe featured non-Pokémon animals in addition to the Pokémon, maybe it still does < 1521731988 806792 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a video game of the anime too? I heard of the video game of the tcg < 1521731999 352033 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pokémon Yellow: Special Pikachu Edition < 1521732009 702588 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically the original games with the plot edited to match that of the anime < 1521732014 367086 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1521732050 335314 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOO! < 1521732057 761000 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're changing Lightning Bolt's text too? < 1521732070 899341 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Deal 3 damage to any target" is shorter than the original < 1521732076 183128 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, actually < 1521732078 406168 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably is the original < 1521732086 426593 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was oracled to something else for ages < 1521732089 844019 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it semantically equivalent to the previous text < 1521732090 226592 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Lightning Bolt < 1521732091 309473 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, MED-C, PD2-C < 1521732094 71150 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no < 1521732104 503148 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're changing the old text to mean something else < 1521732113 678182 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're errata-ing it to new text that matches its old functionality < 1521732118 655335 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that just seems rude < 1521732129 390394 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're errataing to approximate its old functionality < 1521732132 408882 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's certainly no match < 1521732138 407058 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the original text from Alpha is, IIRC, closer to the newest text than the text it's had for most of its life < 1521732158 390204 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at work, can someone look up what the printed text is on Alpha lightning bolt? < 1521732164 223211 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a moment < 1521732170 618707 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: OK, it can't hit hexproof planeswalkers now, that is indeed a change < 1521732177 732719 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but it can hit planeswalkers controlled by hexproof players) < 1521732184 253627 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which probably comes up more often) < 1521732185 239255 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Lightning Bolt does 3 damage to one target" < 1521732200 342332 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so very close to the new wording < 1521732209 653007 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only change is "any" → "one", I think? < 1521732217 629374 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and "does" → "deals" < 1521732225 352453 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wonder what Benevolent Unicorn's new text will be < 1521732232 315619 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Benevolent Unicorn < 1521732233 102785 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Benevolent Unicorn \ 1W \ Creature -- Unicorn \ 1/2 \ If a spell would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals that much damage minus 1 to that creature or player instead. \ MI-C < 1521732240 427584 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I believe it won't be changed < 1521732261 338084 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they gave algorithms for translating old card wording, because there will be so many printed cards with the old wording < 1521732266 254231 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's all those damage redirctor things, some of which like Pariah care about damage to players < 1521732280 707946 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's likely to be important for players to know what they do without checking Oracle < 1521732293 720545 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the algorithms are being applied consistently to all but one card < 1521732297 864011 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Vial Smasher the Fierce < 1521732298 762909 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vial Smasher the Fierce \ 1BR \ Legendary Creature -- Goblin Berserker \ 2/3 \ Whenever you cast your first spell each turn, Vial Smasher the Fierce deals damage equal to that spell's converted mana cost to an opponent chosen at random. \ Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.) \ C16-M < 1521732326 133850 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, they never printed Lava Axe with the rules text centered and no flavor text? < 1521732342 755960 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they haven't stated what's different about Vial Smasher, but the leading theory is that "opponent" is being changed to "opponent or planeswalker controlled by an opponent" even though the algorithm would say to leave it alone) < 1521732356 149843 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lightning bolt does have such a printing though, and that will probably be impossible in the future < 1521732360 36916 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: probably because unlike most of the centred-text cards, which tend to be quite powerful < 1521732362 274485 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1521732364 179436 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be possible < 1521732369 904907 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lava Axe is actually a really bad card < 1521732405 13344 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. there's a card that can do 6 damage to a player for 2RR but it has alternative modes too < 1521732407 154479 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible < 1521732418 943889 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1521732454 671516 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerful in limited or in constructed? < 1521732470 32566 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably better in limited but I suspect it's bad in both < 1521732486 741786 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem being that by the time you've reached 5 mana, you have better things to do than 5 damage < 1521732513 882541 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the opponent is on 5 life or less, and even then the only real advantage of lava axe is that it has fewer spells that stop it than most finishers do < 1521732592 77910 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name glorybringer < 1521732593 737399 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glorybringer \ 3RR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 4/4 \ Flying, haste \ You may exert Glorybringer as it attacks. When you do, it deals 4 damage to target non-Dragon creature an opponent controls. (An exerted creature won't untap during your next untap step.) \ AKH-R < 1521732604 458992 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an example of a 5-mana red finisher that's commonly used in Constructed < 1521732606 512952 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nah, that's not why I asked. I was wondering if some three-mana spot removal spell ever got that treatment, like Expunge but without a "can't be regenerated" rider < 1521732610 460435 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably no < 1521732614 858822 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think you're right < 1521732644 607531 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can /almost/ Lava Axe someone (4 damage rather than 5, assuming they don't have a flying/reaching blocker), but it does a lot of other things too < 1521732650 42874 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cards that got that treatment are Giant Growth and Cancel, cards that are cheap in money but relatively powerful and go into many decks < 1521732848 376877 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, Lightning Bolt < 1521732873 459529 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually they need two flying/reaching blockers unless one of them has hexproof, protection from red, or 5+ toughness < 1521732879 389385 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is a dragon < 1521732908 117310 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I've pretty much planned out how to write up this M:tG waterfall model < 1521732923 116862 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need the time and concentration to actually do it < 1521732931 346407 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1521732933 843414 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an exception < 1521732934 86427 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write a series of articles that can be read in either order < 1521732936 601849 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Murder < 1521732948 732999 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Murder was printed with rules text centered and no flavor text (and not in Portal) < 1521732950 638690 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one direction you get the explanations first and see how it's used in practice later < 1521732956 355434 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must be the power in Limited that counts < 1521732965 852806 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Murder isn't good in Constructed, right? < 1521732968 28606 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the other direction it starts with the deck and you have no idea where it's going < 1521732976 962634 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it is but it's normally outclassed < 1521732981 317248 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Hero's Downfall < 1521732982 167223 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hero's Downfall \ 1BB \ Instant \ Destroy target creature or planeswalker. \ THS-R < 1521733017 192574 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people will play Murder if there's nothing better in the format, but normally there's either a Murder-with-upside (like Hero's Downfall), or a cheaper-Murder-with-downside-that-rarely-comes-up < 1521733042 898824 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in the casual environment we play, three-mana kill spells like that are rarely played, because there are so many good two-mana and one-mana spot removal for black, even if they're slightly less versatile than Murder < 1521733049 51419 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1521733064 71634 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Dismember < 1521733065 72545 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dismember \ 1(b/p)(b/p) \ Instant \ ({(b/p)} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.) \ Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. \ NPH-U, MM2-U < 1521733087 137624 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's probably the closest equivalent that's played in Modern < 1521733100 626307 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the odds that you're up against something with 6 toughness are not high < 1521733132 454940 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being able to trade life for mana on it makes it more useful than Murder is in the early game < 1521733147 360557 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although some three-mana ones get played for some advantage they offer: Eyeblight's Ending for searching with Elvish Harbinger and triggering Lys Alana; Hideous End for the extra damage < 1521733169 584629 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Dismember < 1521733204 189651 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, kill spells limited by toughness or mana cost or color or excluding some creatures are still useful < 1521733291 221871 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Fatal Push < 1521733291 926458 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fatal Push \ B \ Instant \ Destroy target creature if it has converted mana cost 2 or less. \ Revolt -- Destroy that creature if it has converted mana cost 4 or less instead if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn. \ AER-U < 1521733315 914198 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the best-known kill spell at the moment < 1521733321 927607 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, there's some nostalgy involved because bad three-mana kill spells were among the first cards I bought: Seal of Doom and Expunge < 1521733330 571446 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Revolt is really easy to trigger in eternal formats like Modern and Casual < 1521733613 994327 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days I mostly play the black D-cards for destroy and discard: Disfigure, Deathmark, Darkblust, Duress, Doom Blade, ... um, Soul Reap? I should buy Dead Weight to continue this theme < 1521733650 177791 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's technically Distress and Douse in Gloom too, but I don't play them anymore.) < 1521733745 473249 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see. They used "Murder" and "Assassinate" and "Slaughter". That leaves "Kill", "Slay", "Destroy" as names reserved for future iconic updates. < 1521733801 433630 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity "Remove" was used up for some portal junk < 1521733914 570914 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will Harm's Way be able to redirect to a planeswalker now? < 1521733989 625441 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there'll be a rule now that says what "any target" means? < 1521734001 513586 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or only "any target" when it's about dealing damage to it? < 1521734017 671183 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former, that's what the article says < 1521734252 350610 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why can't ANY of these several websites cataloging M:tG cards use a GOOD algorithm for what printing to select by default when you search for a card name? < 1521734313 476072 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate how they always show the ugly or fancy cards from all sorts of special low count reprints instead of the more common printings in expert expansions or core sets. < 1521734450 211146 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, anyway the article says wait for the rules update bulletin to find out the specifics. I guess that's fair < 1521734507 334876 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they" instead of "he or she" will also take some time getting used to. I wonder if there's any card where "they" or "them" will cause confusion or ambiguity because it could refer to something else. < 1521734540 11548 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably won't happen much, because in those cases "he or she" is already not likely to be used, "that player" getting used instead < 1521734627 711805 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And many times it's clear from context that a player is meant anyway < 1521734800 94885 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Iwamori of the Open Fist < 1521734803 132033 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iwamori of the Open Fist \ 2GG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Monk \ 5/5 \ Trample \ When Iwamori of the Open Fist enters the battlefield, each opponent may put a legendary creature card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ BOK-R < 1521734804 754361 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an open fist is basically a hand, right? < 1521735313 871583 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Llanowar Elves now has a very short rules text. Not as short as Raging Goblin though. Oh, that reminds me! Dark Ritual also has the centered rules text no flavor treatment. Imagine that saying just "Add {B}{B}{B}." in the center. That would be short. Probably won't happen though, because it's not likely to get reprinted much. < 1521735327 859352 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1521735345 931612 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it did get some reprints, including in Masters 25, so maybe it could happen. < 1521735379 59351 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just has to be a set that's not legal in Modern, I guess. < 1521735440 609475 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do creatures ever get the center no flavor text treatment? < 1521735768 866507 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are several creatures whose rules text is just "Flying" or "Reach" or "Banding" or "Vigilance" or "Flanking", at least one each with just "Haste" or "Flash". (You can tell my age from how I'm not saying "Infect","Menace", "Prowess", "Skulk".) < 1521735797 982340 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The shortest keyword ability that can stand alone is probably "Fear" though. What creature has only "Fear" and no other ability? < 1521735942 783616 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gluttonous Zombie, Prickly Boggart, Razortooth Rats, Severed Legion. No more I think. < 1521735946 30523 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :centred-no-flavour is only for instants and sorceries, I think < 1521735961 160081 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make an argument that the textless vanilla creatures from Future Sight count … < 1521735971 854252 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An unfortunate interaction of the lack of "new world order" in the past and the lack of fear in the present < 1521736023 633421 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, old basic lands have the old rules text printed centered and no flavor text < 1521736051 675558 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've realized, I have some of those < 1521736989 480428 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Oran-Rief Invoker < 1521736990 861744 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oran-Rief Invoker \ 1G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 2/2 \ {8}: Oran-Rief Invoker gets +5/+5 and gains trample until end of turn. \ BFZ-C, DDR-C < 1521737002 258354 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they printed an improved Stonewood Invoker because the original was weak? interesting < 1521737558 600021 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf. Legendary gets a rules change AGAIN? < 1521737575 383418 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't they stop that already? < 1521737580 659878 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did they change? < 1521737581 462232 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :the legend rule didn't change < 1521737591 862021 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're talking about the legendary sorcery thing < 1521737593 497576 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly this one is fully backwards compatible < 1521737597 201229 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, legendary sorceries < 1521737599 871485 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems to be a keyword mechanic that was made into a supertype for some bizarre reason < 1521737624 887139 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you can't cast this spell unless you control a legendary creature or planeswalker" is /not/ what it does on any other card type < 1521737641 167328 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, there's a lot of confusion about that rule < 1521737658 807500 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because nobody seems sure whether it associates as "(legendary creature) or planeswalker" or "legendary (creature or planeswalker)" < 1521737678 191766 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost doesn't matter at all < 1521737685 593532 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't impact existing games because I believe there's an invariant that being (sorcery or instant) is a property that can never change on an object, in any direction < 1521737701 495085 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :manifest can change it < 1521737715 185276 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hehe < 1521737737 713945 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: is that even the same object as the sorcery, though? < 1521737741 790087 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it becomes a new object when it changes zones < 1521737752 534436 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is effectively a face-down creature that can't be turned face-up < 1521737758 66203 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, fair < 1521737769 676588 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's no way with existing cards to make a sorcery legendary, not even with Leyline of Singularity < 1521737787 662662 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1521737789 619177 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :manifest < 1521737793 562289 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot about that < 1521737794 433720 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it < 1521737803 400991 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of that morph land from time spiral block < 1521737803 960660 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: also the release notes are clear that it is legendary (creature or planeswalker) < 1521737843 278484 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1521737850 230389 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok < 1521737878 831183 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOO! < 1521737888 353770 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know they hate protection, but did they really need to do this? < 1521737890 859684 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that's like the third time you've done that today < 1521737895 22735 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hexproof from black)_ < 1521737905 405892 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not a single time has it been because you spilled water on your hygrometer < 1521737908 136755 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, third < 1521737956 418343 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hexproof from black" is less offensive when you see it as a fixed version of hexproof rather than a fixed version of protection < 1521737956 815243 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've destroyed my previous keyboard by spilling water on it. that's not supposed to permanently destroy electronics, but it somehow did. I'm careful with drinks in this room since then. < 1521737990 669256 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just felt sorry for the hygrometer; unlike basically any other piece of electronic equipment, it's aware that it's wet < 1521737997 306087 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still get water on stuff in the bedroom and kitchen I guess, and outdoors < 1521738008 624760 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got water on non-waterproof objects outdoors in the rain < 1521738029 771536 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain sensors in modern cars are also aware < 1521738059 343511 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I can understand why you feel sorry for it < 1521738061 234734 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess those are likely to be moisture sensors rather than hygrometers? the two are pretty similar in concept, anyway < 1521738077 361897 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the hygrometer can tell me it's wet so that I can dry it off :-) < 1521738095 908606 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't feel the cold, which can be quite dangerous in this weather as being unable to percieve it doesn't actually make me immune to its effects) < 1521738100 858869 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I think they're just cameras that look for water droplets, and they don't even get wet because they're behind a windshield < 1521738112 534429 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so I've started carrying a thermometer around, but this one came with a clock and a hygrometer and a moonphase display attached to it) < 1521738132 898593 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should buy two thermometers here (an indoor and an outdoor one) < 1521738152 566564 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can feel cold, but still, I need more precise measurements < 1521738157 985994 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I'm indoors, I check the outdoors temperature by using the Internet to connect to a nearby weather station < 1521738164 804303 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGBB < 1521738165 968583 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGBB 221650Z 23009KT 200V260 9999 OVC030 08/01 Q1014 < 1521738196 963399 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for hexproof from black, the article explicitly says "A Knight of noble lineage, Knight of Grace harkens back to an earlier era and the hallowed White Knight." < 1521738198 831709 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*perceive < 1521738214 720540 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should I not consider it as a ruined protection ability after that? < 1521738245 963418 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly WOTC are treating it as one based on that < 1521738256 130953 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on that card at least < 1521738264 163382 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be other cards where it's not so < 1521738264 187488 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are quite a few cases where the difference doesn't matter < 1521738285 873017 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. both versions of Emrakul have a "protection from …" which could equivalently be "hexproof from …" < 1521738302 973056 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they won't be errata'd because a few cards check for creatures with protection abilities specifically < 1521738313 803774 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Display of Dominance < 1521738314 950685 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Display of Dominance \ 1G \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ · Destroy target blue or black noncreature permanent. \ · Permanents you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells your opponents control this turn. \ DTK-U < 1521738316 66714 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hmm, not quite < 1521738322 866915 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nontargeting instants that deal damage would work differently < 1521738333 500664 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Karplusan Strider < 1521738335 280461 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Karplusan Strider \ 3G \ Creature -- Yeti \ 3/4 \ Karplusan Strider can't be the target of blue or black spells. \ CSP-U, 10E-U, MM2-U < 1521738341 258790 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume some of those exist although I can't think of any offhand, nontargeted damage is normally from sorceries < 1521738346 953539 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mercenary Informer < 1521738348 67921 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mercenary Informer \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Rebel Mercenary \ 2/1 \ Mercenary Informer can't be the target of black spells or abilities from black sources. \ {2}{W}: Put target nontoken Mercenary on the bottom of its owner's library. \ PR-R < 1521738350 486596 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, there are a lot of these < 1521738366 58671 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's even < 1521738366 605680 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: none of those are "hexproof from" though, except possibly Display of Dominance < 1521738368 899379 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Autumn's Veil < 1521738369 703789 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autumn's Veil \ G \ Instant \ Spells you control can't be countered by blue or black spells this turn, and creatures you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells this turn. \ M11-U, M12-U < 1521738382 916002 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is funny because the "blue or black" is almost redundant < 1521738389 176443 :lldd!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1521738395 758131 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rare to get your spells countered by a spell that's not (blue or black) < 1521738396 19874 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name mana tithe < 1521738396 834683 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mana Tithe \ W \ Instant \ Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. \ PLC-C < 1521738402 282460 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1521738404 189046 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a few of them < 1521738460 646821 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lapse of Certainty and more < 1521738532 600347 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION idly wonders what the simplest hypothetical Magic card would be that's Turing-complete by itself
< 1521738569 366335 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, that uses only existing black-bordered mechanics < 1521738576 416669 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, Planar Chaos actually has three, including one that's sort of like a time-shifted Intervene but not quite < 1521738653 947791 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by itself? it would either have to have the basic ability from Relentless Rats, or some other strange rule so you can build a deck with it by itself. even Momir Vig Avatar needs basic lands. < 1521738668 63308 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would you allow some basic lands with it? < 1521738673 574209 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I mean the only permanents in play are copies of it < 1521738677 621135 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you start the combo < 1521738682 820934 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it can do the setup by itself < 1521738696 350776 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1521738739 298096 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you have interesting effects helping the combo that aren't on permanents? like "for the rest of the game" or "until end of turn" effects, or abilities active from the graveyard? < 1521738785 614372 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Wizards cards we likely need permanents for TC-ness, but if you want hypothetical cards, we probably don't need any < 1521738790 505389 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :our current core for the actual computation is rotlung reanimator, noxious ghoul, hungry lynx, and something that gives a static -X/-2 effect (it'd be interesting if this last part could be omitted, it doesn't seem impossible) < 1521738837 832349 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and static effects in the graveyard or that aren't attached to anything feels like cheating, unless they edit the text of the permanent (in the style of Artificial Evolution) < 1521738846 749982 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and some of those can be swapped out for other cards, although I haven't seen anyone find a combo without Rotlung Reanimator yet < 1521738881 390452 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, looking for alternate potential methods that don't use Rotlung Reanimator might be worthy in itself, just to see that the TC-ness isn't fragile and doesn't depend on one stupid card < 1521738917 828880 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically need a way to replace a creature when it dies < 1521738945 759643 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of... but in some good enough way < 1521738949 134441 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rotlung Reanimator with both creature types equal is all that's needed for my M:tG-implemented TC language (I think Alex Churchill's uses both creature types) < 1521738953 485077 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it must be at least repeatable < 1521738968 711000 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Young Wolf < 1521738969 992410 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Young Wolf \ G \ Creature -- Wolf \ 1/1 \ Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.) \ DKA-C < 1521738975 854434 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Solemnity < 1521738976 954652 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solemnity \ 2W \ Enchantment \ Players can't get counters. \ Counters can't be put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments, or lands. \ HOU-R < 1521738981 543109 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for power reasons, most such reanimation cards try to be not repeatable, so you can't just infinitely replace your creatures < 1521738995 377401 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure there are enough different creature types among Undying and Persist creatures to make the construction viable < 1521739000 766718 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rotlung Reanimator tries to avoid that by the different creature types < 1521739004 130421 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they'll forget the text edits when they die < 1521739020 237980 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1521739042 627544 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mikaeus, the Unhallowed < 1521739043 866505 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mikaeus, the Unhallowed \ 3BBB \ Legendary Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 5/5 \ Intimidate (This creature can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or creatures that share a color with it.) \ Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it. \ Other non-Human creatures you control get +1/+1 and have undying. (When a creature with undying dies, < 1521739049 850088 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about that? < 1521739051 148897 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly we'll need a conspiracy that gives things persist < 1521739059 107752 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, Mikaeus would work < 1521739232 340759 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's some way to mandatorily make creatures become a copy of some other creature. < 1521739237 869407 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Infinite Reflection < 1521739239 39187 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite Reflection \ 5U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ When Infinite Reflection enters the battlefield attached to a creature, each other nontoken creature you control becomes a copy of that creature. \ Nontoken creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of enchanted creature. \ AVR-R, C14-R < 1521739267 822663 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably either impossible, or at least harder than the other routes < 1521739380 996327 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521739414 955246 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mass < 1521739416 410892 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mass Appeal \ 2U \ Sorcery \ Draw a card for each Human you control. \ AVR-U \ \ Mass Calcify \ 5WW \ Sorcery \ Destroy all nonwhite creatures. \ SHM-R, M15-R \ \ Mass Hysteria \ R \ Enchantment \ All creatures have haste. \ MRD-R \ \ Mass Mutiny \ 3RR \ Sorcery \ For each opponent, gain control of up to one target creature that player controls < 1521739422 521663 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1521739425 939333 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Permeating Mass < 1521739426 866428 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Permeating Mass \ G \ Creature -- Spirit \ 1/3 \ Whenever Permeating Mass deals combat damage to a creature, that creature becomes a copy of Permeating Mass. \ EMN-R < 1521739435 350814 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems more controllable < 1521739455 186379 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncontrollable effects are probably fine, it's not much different from writing in INTERCAL < 1521739470 221418 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1521739535 417770 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only without such useful statements as array element assignment and indexed return < 1521739571 81471 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language are you trying to implement? still The Waterfall Model? < 1521739580 961267 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1521739582 826683 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been wondering about implementing the I/D machine in Magic but I can't see a good way to emulate the RAM < 1521739594 278261 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just looking at what's available at first < 1521739608 529215 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1521739639 625058 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a huge leap. you could go to something in between, as in, something with a stack or queue of symbols so there's no exponential slowdown, but without a full RAM < 1521739658 274853 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like StackFlow < 1521739669 167167 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean in terms of speed < 1521739674 196724 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondering what data storages were possible < 1521739678 350980 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1521739694 149663 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the I/D machine is simple to define, but it doesn't sound like simple to implement < 1521739783 969393 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly I wouldn't try to store conses (recursive data types that aren't just a list but can branch out as any binary tree) in M:tG like you'd need to emulate unlambda or underload < 1521739857 54722 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consumer society, that esolang I've been promising to create for a while, it's also one that's easy to define for humans, but it's specifically not easy to implement. It's probably harder to implement than even unlambda or underload or anything like that. < 1521739907 116708 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems interesting < 1521739927 901862 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, it surely can't be as hard as Tableaux :-P < 1521739937 675872 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's not that hard < 1521739944 197521 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even as hard as perl < 1521739957 945656 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though Tableaux's only primitives are zero, increment, dereference pointer < 1521739963 634218 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's what they're pointing into that's hard to implement) < 1521739965 209638 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and equals < 1521739997 351817 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to write a reference interpreter for it that implements it (up to some resource limits). < 1521740038 634183 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean not Tableaux, but Consumer society < 1521740064 34266 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun name, anyway < 1521740076 381247 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a provisional name, but yes < 1521740099 230330 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided it's not very spoiler, you can't guess the main trick of the language from it, so I can reveal it < 1521740132 555254 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, languages with spoilers < 1521740136 238018 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't made one of those since Incident < 1521740147 879543 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a spoiler-free version of the semantics in addition to my guide talking about the language < 1521740154 514655 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That language also has very few primitives, and one of them is like the parenthesis in Underload, grouping some code to a single block you can manipulate as a whole but will later be opened and ran < 1521740157 690326 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521740188 963511 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language can also be considered to have two stacks, a data stack and a call stack, like underload < 1521740196 743093 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or considered as a term-rewriting language < 1521740216 458218 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these two stacks provide for turing-completeness < 1521740220 685977 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also like Underload < 1521740221 274169 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's about where the similarity ends < 1521740224 897759 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd better go, anyway < 1521740260 271252 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's still the main twist, which is something that is used in some languages other than underload, but the innovation here is using only that and nothing else to make a full languae < 1521740281 635537 :ais523_!93bcc33d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.188.195.61 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1521740296 631520 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1521740321 460264 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1521740364 803005 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-lfqrzdqpeosgjuze QUIT :Excess Flood < 1521740399 145513 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-toezydejmdiydqyt JOIN :#esoteric < 1521740414 734634 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-toezydejmdiydqyt QUIT :Changing host < 1521740414 759516 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 JOIN :#esoteric < 1521740414 835768 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@unaffiliated/lord-of-life/x-0885362 QUIT :Changing host < 1521740414 857454 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-toezydejmdiydqyt JOIN :#esoteric < 1521741383 98028 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is harder in the real world? https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/whistle or https://www.xkcd.com/666/ ? And would you do the former with some hidden electronics? < 1521741872 736367 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-167-61.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are no silent hammers < 1521741908 882065 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: maybe no, but there are some methods to make hammering more silent. < 1521741987 874529 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the SMBC is easier. > 1521743693 246881 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Fueue14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54448&oldid=54424 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+797) 10/* Computational class */ New and improved. Now with parallelism! < 1521745285 887902 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1521746877 875545 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1521747136 353047 :MDude!~MDude@pa-67-234-118-37.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1521747579 166726 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1521747906 921024 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these password requirements are horrible! < 1521747921 206326 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on ugyfelkapu.gov.hu ) < 1521747990 70203 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't choose a proper password because it has ridiculous and undescribe requirements > 1521748015 995426 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DMC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54449&oldid=54341 5* 03DMC 5* (-105) 10 > 1521748145 202023 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DMC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54450&oldid=54449 5* 03DMC 5* (+56) 10 < 1521748944 655108 :wob_jonas!b03f18b5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.181 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1521749446 601443 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1521750666 429734 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1521751385 586327 :lldd!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1521751737 510243 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: TIMELINE CHICKEN < 1521752253 664327 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521753126 981046 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521753845 391448 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1521754676 866209 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric > 1521756752 640831 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:DMC14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54451&oldid=54450 5* 03DMC 5* (-77) 10 < 1521757831 548041 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1521758647 303140 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1521759939 398600 :Naergon!~Naergon@unaffiliated/naergon QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1521761195 992577 :rottytooth!~Mutter@pool-100-33-245-161.nycmny.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1521761333 926539 :rottytooth!~Mutter@pool-100-33-245-161.nycmny.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Client Quit