< 1520122148 181923 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520122170 290606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you can actually take user input, at least from the opponent, with just the cards we have now < 1520122182 943325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use the same construction but set both creature types on one of the Hungry Lynxes to the same thing < 1520122196 690905 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb ais523 < 1520122199 423093 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the counter will be set to either 4 or 5 depending on the order in which they stack the triggers < 1520122235 503831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, actually reading values that are that close in magnitude would be hard because it'd lead to multiple creatures dying simultaneously < 1520122268 390921 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can't simulate M:tG, there's no way to do the infinite loop detection :-P < 1520122323 629956 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : 9 cards:‎ CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520122326 866060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reference < 1520122373 222441 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1520122824 224805 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520122932 77781 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520123054 815137 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can make stuff that cares if a subgame is ended by not knowing if it halt, and use other cards that take stuff from sideboard they can be used to affect the main game from the subgame, then there is possibility to be uncomputable and solve halting problems, if the rule is supposed to work that way. < 1520123112 349740 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can affect the main game simply because subgame creation cards have an effect on the main game < 1520123146 37316 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good Night. < 1520123156 37239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any way to create an actual paradox, though (in which we have a termination detector for M:tG itself rather than just for Turing machines) < 1520123184 729813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm going to bed < 1520123186 655808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1520123209 149877 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, such as affecting life total depending who wins/loses, but that is not the only way to affect the main game < 1520123586 490216 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1520124063 780236 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4577:6aa:50ca:4b5e:8685:199f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520124100 889932 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4577:6aa:50ca:4b5e:8685:199f JOIN :#esoteric > 1520124149 624917 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54281&oldid=54276 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+0) 10People keep getting this backwards... < 1520124168 155067 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: *cough* < 1520124412 92055 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4577:6aa:50ca:4b5e:8685:199f QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1520125066 222578 :augur!~augur@104-244-24-85.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520125115 419950 :mniip!mniip@haskell/developer/mniip QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520126002 975076 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ?! < 1520126222 31984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: maybe because it's confusing hth < 1520126248 180682 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :people should talk about coreductions instead, which are merely nfusing > 1520126271 583158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54282&oldid=53890 5* 03Superchargedcoffee 5* (+95) 10/* Normal implementations */ < 1520126287 923819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm not sure why oerjan is calling themselves "people". > 1520127000 680639 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54283&oldid=54281 5* 03Int-e 5* (+0) 10Undo revision 54281 by [[Special:Contributions/Oerjan|Oerjan]] ([[User talk:Oerjan|talk]]) (Yes, people keep getting this wrong.) < 1520127207 699844 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ? < 1520127260 420070 :Cale_!~cale@static-108-30-103-216.nycmny.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520127272 339039 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520127315 794535 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1520127350 79932 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1520127355 555490 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :A reduction from A to B takes an instance of A and turns it into an instance of B. Here, a StackFlow program becomes a M:tG deck and instructions for starting the game. < 1520127390 720344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :What people *do* get wrong is which direction they need. (Reducing from the halting problem shows undecidability; reducing to the halting problem shows semidecidability.) < 1520127827 345322 :Naergon!~Naergon@188.29.165.174.threembb.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1520128249 468731 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh. < 1520128338 442045 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs brain replacement, stat < 1520128505 109800 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e++ < 1520131959 372081 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Which problems can't be reduced to the halting problem? < 1520133013 264222 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "you can't simulate M:tG, there's no way to do the infinite loop detection" => unless you can use the host game's infinite loop detection for that. That would get really ugly, you'd need like two or three different ways to get input from each player for that. < 1520133176 352798 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably won't work here, but it happened to just work out in my reduction from (1) with arrays to (1). < 1520133208 77264 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can arrange it just so that the infinite loop rule in (1) simulates the infinite loop rule in (1) with arrays. < 1520133836 350979 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: the halting problem for TMs with a halting oracle hth < 1520133876 553491 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oracle for ordinary TMs < 1520133950 866342 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Encode a program that halts when it finds a counterexample to collatz conjecture that is a cycle < 1520134226 234862 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking for a divergent trajectory would be tougher < 1520134338 239172 :Cale_!~cale@5-251-234-66.static.cosmoweb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520135063 270146 :augur!~augur@104-244-24-85.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520136768 122101 :augur!~augur@2600:380:456b:2512:4ccc:1de5:5e2d:8dbd JOIN :#esoteric < 1520137690 970027 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made more of Free Hero Mesh conversion program. One output (the ".class" file; it creates four files, but the other three are binary) is: https://arin.ga/grhVRM So far, shapes, class codes, and help texts are not implemented, but everything else is. You can now complain about it if the syntax could be altered and other suggestions and comments and complaints please. < 1520138191 785931 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1520139045 791528 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have not figured out level 86 of this tsume shogi game < 1520142398 341630 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520143483 310902 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lyzhtizmbmmwnqev QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520143625 870891 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Quit: Alas. < 1520143633 253092 :shikhin!shikhin@buttsex.space JOIN :#esoteric < 1520145162 476975 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520145272 422321 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1520145300 282087 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520145957 148972 :shikhin!shikhin@buttsex.space QUIT :Quit: Alas. < 1520145970 950798 :shikhin!shikhin@buttsex.space JOIN :#esoteric < 1520147634 49596 :augur!~augur@2600:380:456b:2512:4ccc:1de5:5e2d:8dbd QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520148103 771686 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What other formats to compress 2-dimensional data will include a rotation flag? < 1520148959 13 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgbknvxgcdvquuar JOIN :#esoteric < 1520149048 554491 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: jpeg, and some camera raw formats do have that < 1520149063 132001 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jpeg not natively, only in camera metadata < 1520149142 738384 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this is because most modern cameras save the rotation, either derived by a heuristic from the image itself, or from an acceleration sensor in the camera, because people often use the same camera upright or rotated < 1520149170 174774 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's usually four settings of the rotation flag that the camera uses, as multiples of 90 degrees < 1520152493 681698 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :us flag with mars colony https://imgur.com/e9zSfkb < 1520152623 392836 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520155098 686748 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520155517 74838 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1520155708 150142 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520155871 78199 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1520156513 421652 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520158519 849764 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cgbknvxgcdvquuar QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520159612 279632 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520159901 509501 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: the non-halting problem doesn't reduce to the halting problem, but I guess the standard example is the universal halting problem (does a TM halt on all possible inputs?) which is neither semidecidable nor cosemidecidable. < 1520159989 108748 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: also, more fundamentally, anything not below \Sigma_1 in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy < 1520160099 603699 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: (the non-halting problem is in \Pi_1; the universal halting problem is in \) < 1520160103 173148 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\Pi_2) < 1520160785 254143 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1520160785 314420 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1520160785 314472 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520161322 470613 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520161816 336917 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520162933 680142 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pyhtihoifldglypg JOIN :#esoteric < 1520163061 117719 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520163111 994667 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520163175 881486 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also I think in the sprite-tile based graphics processor in some 8-bit era game consoles, the sprites have X and Y mirror flags so the bitmap only has to be stored once < 1520163204 321017 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why in game boy super mario land 2, when an enemy dies, its sprite is shown mirrored < 1520163514 177504 :Roger9!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :with three bits you could encode rotation & X/Y mirroring (depends on rotation) < 1520163521 322689 :Roger9!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only in 90 degree increments ofc < 1520163535 194792 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roger9: yes, but actual rotation isn't so cheap to compute on the fly < 1520163571 122245 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roger9: the sprite bitmaps are stored in the ordinary ROM or RAM of the machine, which is read in bytes, and there's usually four pixels per byte < 1520163588 84389 :Roger9!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I can kinda see what you mean < 1520163606 539264 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you render normally, you read one byte and render four pixels from it, but if it's rotated, you read each byte four times to render one pixel from it < 1520163628 249761 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading a byte multiple times isn't the problem, but reading a new byte each pixel is a bit difficulty < 1520163644 495006 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/bit di/big di/ < 1520164999 454352 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520165270 133820 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520165428 193880 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd question < 1520165450 221359 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know the best way to staple together a booklet (multiple sheets of foled paper) with a desk stapler? < 1520165528 213010 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520165562 144384 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: how many pages? If it's more than 10 or 15, then you usually want a desk hole punch and one of those flexible flat metal clamps that can be opened and closed multiple times and are usually put into these cheap plastic folders, but occasionally you can find it without the folder front and back sheet. Both desktop hole punches and these clamps < 1520165562 217562 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric : are cheap and reliable. < 1520165634 962500 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: and if it's over 50 pages, then you might want spiral binding, which needs a more expensive machine, but the use-once spiral binder is cheap and there are shops that do spiral binding as a service for quite cheap. < 1520165653 802319 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The spiral binder machine is still something a large office can buy.) < 1520165749 885701 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 sheetts < 1520165764 651779 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also an intermediate solution, also for over 50 pages, of reopenable ring binders with two or four rigid rings. These exist in various sizes, and are more expensive than the folders with the plastic clamp, but for large amount of pages it can be worth. I used one to organize my university notes for a few years, because you can insert and re < 1520165764 734723 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :move sheets easily hundreds of times without damage. < 1520165778 189690 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that four holes can still be punched easily with a cheap two-hole hole punch. < 1520165852 745491 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 sheets? I think for 10 sheets you can just use either a single staple 45 degrees diagonally near the top left (for ltr main writing direction) so that any number of top pages can be folded on the bottom, < 1520165896 364203 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two or three vertical staples on the left margin so it folds like a normal book, but that latter is harder to execute well. < 1520165966 254922 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if it don't expect too much use of the booklet, one staple on the top left corner is usually the best. < 1520166043 110565 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is eg. the normal way we have students staple between 8 and 16 pages of blank sheets on written exams at the start of the exam (before they receive the task sheet) on exams with high risk of cheating. < 1520166052 379982 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :We provide the stapler. < 1520166071 480859 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, we provide staplers and staples, students bring the empty sheets. < 1520166101 873353 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :My situation is I've printed some text expecting to be folded horizontally and then read like a book < 1520166239 45367 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and importantly, use the normal size staples, the one with the two tiny holes in the paper approximately 0.013 apart, not the smaller staples. The smaller staples are junk. < 1520166313 962783 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: is it a document where people will be deeply immersed and turning pages a lot, like a hard to understand maths article, or just one of those reports or legal documents that probably nobody will read much? If the latter, then a staple is fine. In any case, stapling is undoable, so people can change their mind later. < 1520166337 332961 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, the former, and it's solely for my benefit < 1520166352 492227 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's only for yourself, then none of these. < 1520166363 168057 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :...actually I think needle and thread would be better than stapling < 1520166443 325578 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use a removable paperclip if you only have few of these, remove the paperclip for reading; or just use nothing, store it in a folder with other documents, and label and number the pages for easier assembly if they get loose. < 1520166466 478820 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you've got lots of such documents, then it might be worth to invest in a ring binder (there exist ones with different thicknesses) and put everything in to them. < 1520166468 435399 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's slipping as I read it < 1520166539 598283 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually just used a paperclip and folders. Now I have like a thousand pages of old documents in like six thick folders, most of which is useless, but one day I'll have to go through it and find the twenty useful pages and throw away the rest. < 1520166561 927276 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily digital cameras make this thing cheaper, because you can cheaply photograph any document if you're not sure you'll need it later. < 1520166579 466447 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://imgur.com/s7IIxgA < 1520166655 221384 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ah, it's double-sided < 1520166690 902636 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1520166753 53436 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: don't fold it like a booklet. Have one stack of pages on your right that you cyclically permute and all face upright, and when you're reading the reverse of the top page of that cyclical list, then (a) if it's not stapled, put that one sheet on the left next to the stack, (b) if it is stapled on the top left, then rotate the stack left 90 de < 1520166753 126427 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grees while flat on the desk and fold the top page down so you can read its reverse. < 1520166789 354496 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :During that, the same side of the main stack will always face up, and you'll always have only one sheet loose from it, unless you're trying to turn many pages at once to find something. < 1520166813 486282 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that clear enough, or should I make photos? < 1520166953 80307 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can still fold like a booklet without slipping, but in that case don't staple or otherwise attach the sheets, don't fold the sheets at all (keep each completely flat), so the equivalent of the book spine is actually of negative width. But for that, you need a stable desk space with enough width for two pages. < 1520166979 817415 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Folding and trying to keep a positive width spine might be your error here if you want to stick closest to what you're doing < 1520168736 730221 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you compile from The Amnesiac from Minsk level 1 to The Waterfall Model, do you automatically get the property that the Waterfall program will never find two clocks run out at the exact same time? I think that's true, and it's important because the M:tG construction would emulate the program wrong if two clocks ran out at the same time. < 1520168965 313238 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520171186 214417 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1520171605 434172 :Roger9!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com QUIT :Changing host < 1520171605 434245 :Roger9!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ JOIN :#esoteric < 1520172512 973915 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pyhtihoifldglypg QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520176096 946901 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520176478 247101 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520176542 654097 :Cale_!~cale@5-251-234-66.static.cosmoweb.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520176597 582588 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi < 1520176598 258094 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 041450Z 08010KT 020V160 CAVOK 14/M04 Q0996 WS R26 TEMPO 12010G20KT < 1520176666 670762 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, 29% humidity, very dry. < 1520176913 234268 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh and we did start out around -04°C and almost 100% humidity... so it kind of makes sense. Huge difference between then and now. < 1520177804 626188 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520179340 598240 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-188-107-244-128.188.107.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1520180215 626278 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520180301 604365 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-107-244-128.188.107.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: rebooting < 1520180303 24030 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh nice, so the sqlite webpage now points to a public web archive of the sqlite-users mailing list. It used to point to a private archive, readable only after you subscribe, which is rather incvoncenient, because I want to link to some specific emails in it. < 1520180698 301339 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-107-244-128.188.107.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520183560 114353 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520183722 493656 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric > 1520183995 325354 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck implementations14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54284&oldid=54282 5* 03B jonas 5* (+136) 10 < 1520184664 371680 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmqcxmcgisjhpjle JOIN :#esoteric < 1520185286 940755 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1520185412 73009 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520185441 875470 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1520185479 96416 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internet is awesome. I just found out about something awesome that exists in the real world. < 1520185576 163651 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bronze statue depicting the coronation pall with realistic proportions and in detail, apparently life sized or close, exhibited in the Buda castle: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coronation_pall_of_Hungary_by_Tibor_Rieger_(Budapest) < 1520185593 939937 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have been there since 2007, but I never knew it was there, because it's in the north side of the castle, and I rarely go there. < 1520185619 664221 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1520185622 848264 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll absolutely have to watch this soon, although since it's outdoors, the snow would cover it. < 1520185716 452922 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520187346 538213 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do mean the three bit rotation flag. And, I know that some game systems (including Famicom) can flip/mirror sprites (although Famicom has only flip/mirror not rotation, and only for sprites and not backgrounds; some systems support it for backgrounds too I think) < 1520187422 246623 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in that case I only know of such a rotation flag in formats representing photographs, in the metadata sometimes saved by the camera, sometimes added by hand later (because older cameras like my mobile phone don't guess the orientation, and sometimes newer cameras could guess wrong) < 1520187449 686347 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways I was asking about compression. JPEG doesn't use it natively so maybe doesn't count I don't know < 1520187453 612318 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are there systems where horizontal flip is supported for tiles but vertical flip isn't? < 1520187509 680637 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't know. However, my own (unimplemented, and not necessarily finalized either) computer design supports vertical but not horizontal flip for tiles. < 1520187550 167276 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such metadata rotation flag is probably stored in most not too old brands of camera raw files, plus jpeg, tif, and probably other compressed formats. < 1520187554 708073 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/tif,/tiff/ < 1520187601 830434 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've even temporarily stored such a flag in a PPM comment once, but that's not standard, only one tool I wrote wrote it plus one or two scripts I wrote read it. < 1520187621 746507 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there are two archives for the sqlite-users mailing list, one private and one public. (I don't know why, but it is.) < 1520187652 25100 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's normal, there are (or used to be) a lot of third-party mail archive servers that archive many public mailing lists from various servers. < 1520187665 694291 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense, because if the mailing list is public, then those web archive services can just subscribe to it. < 1520187668 493882 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SQLite web page links to both. < 1520187702 626971 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course a program can subscribe to it and automatically archive it public; I know that already. < 1520187827 692077 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess the sqlite guys made the private archive themselves, private so that email address harvesting bots can't easily read it, and the other archive started later. Let me check how far the public archive goes. < 1520187908 257153 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The public archive goes back to https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/mail60.html mails from 2014-09 < 1520187921 47940 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see when I reported that bug... < 1520187963 233148 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, maybe, and then they linked both because the public one hides the email addresses (which isn't necessarily a good idea, because sometimes it might believe something is an email address even when it isn't, and they might want to make it public) < 1520187975 140125 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2015-11. good. < 1520188067 623022 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, servers doing that in an overzealous way is very annoying, ones that think anything with an at sign in it is an email and thus corrupting all sorts of computer-readable code or data in hard to recover ways. < 1520188093 909405 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's the somewhat more modern phenomenon of turning anything with a dot in it to a hyperlink. < 1520188121 831083 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, too, reported a bug, having to do with sqlite3_get_auxdata() and triggers. (It has been corrected.) < 1520188279 893054 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only they had an archive of sqlite-dev too. I want to link an email from there too. < 1520188284 737699 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, it's still better than nothing < 1520188385 523673 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am proud of having found that bug, and should make a short writeup about it, linking the emails and the commits fixing it, then link the writeup from my cv. < 1520188467 523509 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't do those things on my own web pages. Although, you could also put the plain text files on gopher only (email harvesting bots might not be programmed to access gopher, although it is also possible that it does, but I think it is less likely) < 1520188475 644722 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What bug did you find? < 1520188523 642091 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg92963.html The comparison of numbers wasn't transitive when integers and floating point numbers both were involved. < 1520188533 393448 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1520188577 55901 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I first reported that the comparison is not transitive, but that understandingly got lost among the hundreds of emails by beginners complaining about how floating point numbers don't work like real numbers or something (you get that on a lot of programming mailing lists), so I reposted without referring to that at all. < 1520188603 520084 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The devs fixed that second try, after I complained that the first attempted fix didn't work. < 1520188619 109819 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not trivial to fix, it's not even clear to me what the best fix would be. < 1520188629 796631 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the current fix seems good enough. < 1520188703 612111 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is in an important class of bugs, because it can come up in a lot of dynamically typed languages where you can easily mix floating points and integers, especially ones that have commonly used functions reading an input such that you don't know if an integer or float comes out, < 1520188755 152506 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as perl or lua, because then if you read untrusted input and try to sort it or store it in a dictionary, and the comparison (even just equals comparison) is implemented wrong, you can get inconsistent results and even segfaults or arbitrary code execution in the worst case. < 1520188787 640863 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some programming language such as Awk and JavaScript < 1520188809 632037 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worst case doesn't happen very often, and even in sqlite you can't get segfaults or anything like that, only incorrect and inconsistent results to queries plus warnings about an inconsistent database. < 1520188818 674000 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or some programming language such as Awk and JavaScript which has only floating point < 1520188819 617065 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: does awk have integers? < 1520188827 451160 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520188862 269640 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that relevant? If you only have floating points (and presumably only one type of floating points) then this particular bug won't hurt you. Comparing NaNs incorrectly can hurt you, but that's a different inconsistent comparison bug. < 1520188903 418613 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is a different bug I suppose < 1520188988 395983 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NaN comparison bugs is also an important class of bugs, and they're worth popularizing, though they're already well-known, it's not always easy to figure out how best to protect against them in a generic way. < 1520189077 17877 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might take 25 more years until everyone (including people using old versions of Apple or MS compilers) get easy access to a total comparison function for floating points that they can use for sorting. < 1520189172 852402 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can pass your own function for comparing with qsort if you are using that, anyways < 1520189230 709654 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you certainly can. < 1520189262 575033 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And currently sqlite and perl and lua and all those other languages have to write their own comparison functions (they don't use qsort, but that's irrelevant) < 1520189509 876171 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also had proposals for new features for the SQLite virtual table mechanism, including new methods xInterrupt, xFreeIdxStr, xUpdateInline, and also an option to reduce the number of bits set in colUsed in some cases, and a way to consume LIMIT/OFFSET clauses, and indexing virtual tables on expressions and partial index (which would be done by calling sqlite3_declare_vtab() a second time with a CREATE INDEX statement) < 1520189559 98761 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And while I'm there, I should also link to the other sqlite code bug I found from my CV < 1520189568 627228 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one was earlier, I think, and a bug in the query parser/compiler < 1520189647 703 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sqlite.org/src/tktview/3a88d85f3670 < 1520189677 971546 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :From 2014-08 so the public archive won't have the mail < 1520189693 79206 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other one more thing to add would be a action code input in the sqlite3_index_info structure, which is normally SQLITE_SELECT, but if it is a UPDATE or DELETE statement where the entire WHERE clause is consumable then it will mention that instead, in order if an implementation wishes to set SQLITE_INDEX_SCAN_UNIQUE if you tell it to delete everything and it can return a special row that when deleted, deletes everything. < 1520189780 679972 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The xInterrupt method and consuming LIMIT/OFFSET clauses would be useful when the virtual table is accessing the internet. < 1520189841 214511 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion of these things? < 1520189947 18399 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520190420 905081 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no opinion, because I didn't look much into the custom virtual table interface part of sqlite3. I don't care about that interface, and it doesn't get into my way. If I want to define my custom tables, then I don't see why I'd want to go through sqlite3 for its interface at all. < 1520190431 702575 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This applies to current versions of sqlite3 obviously.) < 1520191028 48866 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520191036 748646 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you define custom tables like that without going through sqlite3 for its interface though? < 1520191097 703647 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pressing k pauses or resumes youtube. This is good to know. < 1520191230 363500 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I use sqlite3 mostly because of how it solves storing the table data on the disk, with all the block and record and b-tree stuff, plus managing atomic transactions with arbitrary reads and writes on them. The sql language and automatic query optimizations are less important to me. So if I don't want to use sqlite's built-in table+index, then < 1520191230 457557 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric : I don't see why I'd want to go through its query language and query optimizer at all. < 1520191259 384117 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I implement a custom table, then I'll just use whatever custom interface I define for it, with exactly the operations I want. < 1520191353 146789 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are not accessing it with SQL statements, then you can use a different custom interface. I am just saying sometimes is useful accessing it with SQL statements, including to deal with the custom table and standard SQL tables together. < 1520191388 523464 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's useful, I don't think that's useful for me. < 1520191464 708525 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I want to deal with custom and standard tables together, I can just loop through rows of sqlite3's tables with an sql SELECT ... WHERE ... > ... LIMIT ... query, which recent versions make even easier using list lexicographic comparison built into the sql language. < 1520191720 294215 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 wisdom < 1520191726 252071 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:twitter//Twitter is Taneb's bird collection (presumably). \ lynn//lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ. \ pcp//PCP refers to probably cyclidine proofs. It is precipitously illogical in many places, but research has shown that PCP is, surprisingly, No Problem. \ diet//People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It < 1520191730 800003 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe to you is not useful, but to me is useful the virtual table interface. If your program uses SQLite, then it also includes executing SQL codes, so if you want to allow embedding scripting codes that the user can enter, you can allow user to enter SQL codes even if you do not implement another programming language. Virtual tables is one way allowing to be used in this way. < 1520191745 175914 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`2 < 1520191746 177737 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/1: < 1520191753 195916 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1520191753 803617 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:973) `quote 1000 < 1520191766 244108 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? diet < 1520191767 701019 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet. < 1520191825 542321 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: that's true, if you want to run sql queries chosen by an untrusted user, then you could use sqlite to implement that < 1520191874 386359 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even then I imagine it's sometimes easier and better to just copy all the data to an sqlite table than to build a new virtual table interface to access it < 1520191885 362144 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for read-only access < 1520191895 888637 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but even write access can be done that way, with triggers) < 1520191933 259949 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you actually have such an application, or are you planing one? < 1520191960 538486 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do that whether the user is trusted or untrusted (for untrusted input, there is a authorizer callback). < 1520191985 946163 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never trust the user < 1520192010 836213 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you've met my users, you wouldn't trust me either < 1520192065 312151 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Neither so far, but if it is an extension then you can use them in the sqlite3 command shell too. < 1520192141 240810 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think the authorizer callback is enough for limiting queries by untrusted users. In particular, it's not easy to control how much disk space temporary files can take up. < 1520192200 757463 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there is also the sqlite3_limit() function. < 1520192251 65154 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And if that is still not enough, you can write a VFS shim to limit disk space and write memory allocation routines to limit memory usage.) < 1520192256 508828 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a limit, but it limits the size per file, not the total size of temporary files, and I'm not even sure it applies to all files or just some. < 1520192282 897069 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can do all that stuff, I said it's not easy. < 1520192365 925055 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do trust the user if the program is local and not setuid (although this does not necessarily mean an input file is trusted); for programs that you enter input remotely, or if setuid is in use, then the user is not to be trusted. < 1520192991 747520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of using SQLite to store level and solution files for Free Hero Mesh, although I thought it simpler to just use a Hamster archive instead. This does mean the entire file must be rewritten if the size of any lump changes, but Hero Mesh already does this anyways. < 1520193142 76506 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like Free Hero Mesh? < 1520193257 767935 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know Hero Mesh or Free Hero Mesh. < 1520193281 523201 :mniip!mniip@haskell/developer/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1520193775 549325 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520193782 403882 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duck jumping is a duck type special move big Mario can use in most Super Mario games. < 1520194180 376464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things I will intend doing differently in Free Hero Mesh. In Hero Mesh, if you right click on any tile it displays a description (but not the variables) of only the topmost object at that location. I intend you can view a list of the objects at any location, including the values of any variables, so that there is no hidden information. Variables are not displayed if the class has the Quiz flag set though. < 1520194226 183123 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The Quiz flag is a new flag in Free Hero Mesh. The converter gives this flag to classes named "Quiz". The user configuration file can override the Quiz flag of classes.) < 1520194227 128787 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520194298 410045 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use smallxrm (which I wrote) for user configuration. < 1520194324 635868 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520194389 547919 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like smallxrm? < 1520194391 657183 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1520194448 913667 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Do you have a link for that? < 1520194595 103701 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520194708 513302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.org/prog/smallxrm.zip > 1520194709 200733 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kangaroo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54285&oldid=46011 5* 03B jonas 5* (+26) 10 < 1520194772 780077 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that X resource manager reimplementation. you mentioned that, yes. > 1520194847 990127 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Amnesiac From Minsk14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54286&oldid=53893 5* 03B jonas 5* (+26) 10 < 1520195023 236447 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1520195023 294308 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1520195023 294359 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520195631 88840 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero < 1520195727 384560 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know your opinions about the specifics of them though < 1520195812 66572 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really use x resources directly, so I don't much care < 1520195857 735410 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, I control urxvt with command-line option, and that program allows setting any or almost any option with either an X resource or a command-line option, with both documented < 1520195916 679395 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use X resources to set some things for xterm, because it didn't have equivalent command-line options for some of them, but that was before I started using urxvt, and urxvt is better in almost every way, so I have no reason to go back to xterm. < 1520195945 214565 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might have been one or two other programs for which I set an X resource, but nothing really significant. < 1520195950 388708 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use xterm < 1520195968 718446 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, most new programs don't care much about X resources. It's an old style thing. < 1520196009 229086 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think old programs used X resources because the old motif-like toolkits read them transparently, so the programs could use it to customize the look and feel of its controls without doing much of anything. < 1520196029 121620 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But newer toolkits don't do that anymore. < 1520196063 893647 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: is there some particular reason why you use xterm over urxvt, or have you just not changed because xterm is good enough? < 1520196076 207531 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because xterm is better. < 1520196131 309111 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some serious visual glitches with xterm way back, which was the main reason why I changed, although that might have been fixed in later versions or disappeared as video drivers improved. But now I like urxvt better, and see no reason to go back to xterm from it. < 1520196147 297668 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can still use xterm as a fallback, like as a temporary terminal while I install urxvt. < 1520196188 815163 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: better how in particular? I'm curious what matters for you in particualr < 1520196303 172884 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It supports bitmap fonts and non-Unicode text. < 1520196334 856197 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As well as Xaw scrollbars, which unfortunately most modern programs do not use) < 1520196339 611769 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: urxvt supports bitmap fonts. X bitmap fonts through the X calls. < 1520196373 888992 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use urxvt with bitmap fonts in factr < 1520196428 391878 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, this is one of the settings I pass to urxvt to set the font: -fn "x:-*-fecupboard-medium-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1,x:-*-terminus-bold-r-*-*-20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1" < 1520196463 802313 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sets my bitmap font (listed in wisdom/font ) as the primary font, provided you have it installed to where X can see it < 1520196511 953157 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still one thing it does not support is non-Unicode characters that have no Unicode equivalent, it seems; this should be fixed. < 1520196534 91039 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I may eventually try to write my own terminal emulator, which can fix these problems, too) < 1520196575 18371 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: do you mean non-unicode characters that have a direct representation in the encoding you use for terminal io? < 1520196586 399959 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you access such characters in some other way? < 1520196594 797081 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. with escapes and shifts < 1520196607 111592 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1520196613 591545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are accessed by switching the character set < 1520196662 948546 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There are also characters that do have a Unicode version, although the Unicode version has the wrong width.) < 1520196671 786095 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. that's a reasonable argument, but it doesn't affect me, because all the characters in other encodings I care about are accessible mapped through unicode. < 1520196753 801696 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520196770 599006 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520196851 343625 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, all characters in the DEC line drawing character set are mapped into unicode (there's a table in urxvt's source code), and all characters in the byte encodings I've used have a mapping into unicode, and in both cases this mapping is how my fecupboard20 font identifies the character. < 1520196881 942733 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the "-iso10646-1" indicates that it identifies the character in that way, of course. < 1520196908 439878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? eighth < 1520196909 732564 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eighth? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1520197053 773113 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my font has all the characters from the DEC line drawing character set, and all the characters from the byte encodings I've used. < 1520197064 659062 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does lack some other useful unicode characters though. < 1520197065 223452 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:ae29:3aff:fee8:b414 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520197078 112110 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren's bitmap font is much more exhaustive < 1520197088 752399 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of characters I should add some day < 1520197377 511045 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would make the terminal emulator with bitmap fonts only, all commands from DEC VT terminals, some of the xterm commands, Xaw-like scrollbars, and not much else. If possible, a BREAK signal can be emulated too (by reading the termios settings when BREAK is pushed to determine what to do). < 1520197481 47756 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you can compile urxvt to support bitmap fonts only. the X bitmap font support is mandatory; and there's a configure switch for whether you want to support rendering fonts through xft (which would alone let you use x bitmap fonts too incidentally, but also lets you do much more than that). < 1520197488 295187 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't need background pictures (only Sixel pictures are supported, or a program can read the environment variable with the window ID and draw pictures that way), hyperlinks, etc < 1520197534 634349 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about "all commands from DEC VT terminals" because there are too many such terminals to be able to follow, but urxvt certainly supports many of those commands. It also supports "some of the xterm commands", including some xterm-specific ones, but not all of them. < 1520197629 254495 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about Xaw-like scrollbars. Urxvt has optional support for three different types of scrollbars (many of these features have a compile-time switch), but I just disable the scrollbar so I don't care. < 1520197691 592385 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if the break signal is supported, but if it weren't yet supported, it wouldn't be too hard to add. It's like one ioctl call to send a break signal to a virtual terminal anyway. Maybe more if you want it to work on all BSDs. < 1520197815 872957 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there's even a possibly portable wrapper function over that ioctl call: tcsendbreak. < 1520197874 372005 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you have to read the termios settings, because you're on the master side of the terminal, so the virtual terminal layer handles that. You just have to tell the master virtual terminal to send the break using that function (or the ioctl) and it will do whatever it has to. < 1520197908 702706 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, a break is a feature that's more useful for a physical terminal line than a virtual terminal, but whatever. < 1520197986 63975 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought someone told me that virtual terminals don't support break. < 1520198034 483908 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmm, let me look that up < 1520198118 735341 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520198164 294134 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520198251 262036 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. The virtual terminal interfaces at the kernel and libc level are very similar to the physical terminal interfaces, so the ability should be there. But I don't think I've tested that. You'll have to test on each OS if you want to be sure. < 1520198577 444983 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt such a terminal emulator will be important on operating systems other than Linux and BSD, and possibly Hurd. < 1520198643 23888 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Terminal emulators are useful on win32, with msys or cygwin or other such systems, but urxvt in particular doesn't work in those. < 1520198764 755776 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you are using Windows 10 then you might be able to run it in Linux mode (if you install a Windows-based X server), but I don't know as I have not used Windows 10 < 1520198822 347711 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems tcsendbreak (of glibc) isn't supported on openbsd or freebsd. But linux and openbsd and freebsd have the TIOCSBRK/TIOCCBRK ioctl pair. < 1520198848 875984 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcsendbreak is standardized by posix though, so the bsd libcs might eventually grow one < 1520198914 436857 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If necessary, #if and #ifdef can be used to deal with stuff that is different on different operating systems. < 1520198999 349691 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1520199291 132122 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX describes the consequences of a break depending on the termios at http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap11.html (free registration required) and I don't see why that wouldn't apply for a pseudo-terminal < 1520199295 645919 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course you'll have to test < 1520199315 204014 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the openbsd manuals also specifically say that the pseudo-terminal tries to behave similar to a real terminal < 1520199358 259125 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520199894 182904 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:ae29:3aff:fee8:b414 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520200286 94160 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@31.89.93.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520200286 154238 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@31.89.93.74 QUIT :Changing host < 1520200286 154281 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520200301 446726 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520200327 71138 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520200978 900693 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1520201068 916769 :zemhill_!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1520201135 81974 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520201182 284319 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1520201182 301243 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1520201182 301308 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520201328 564231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The man page for tcsendbreak() says "If the terminal is not using asynchronous serial data transmission, tcsendbreak() returns without taking any action." < 1520201336 559636 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1520201398 715060 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also requires a duration, which is not applicable for pseudo-terminals. < 1520201412 132216 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520201421 548851 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't require a duration. Normally you call it with 0 as the duration parameter. < 1520201455 834562 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *allows* a duration, because sometimes people have specific physical devices that care, and the kernel can control the duration easily. < 1520201467 972959 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it still has a duration even if you specify zero (it says 0.25 to 0.5 seconds if zero is specified). < 1520201507 46480 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why I suggested using termios and then to check the IGNBRK, BRKINT, and PARMRK flags, and then the terminal emulator can perform the appropriate operation due to what they are set to. < 1520201630 230989 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. But I think you should test first if you can send a break directly. < 1520201851 597941 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another reason to read termios settings is to determine how to respond to DECREQTPARM, although an alternative would be to use X resource settings instead. If connecting to a remote server, you may wish to change the report of the baud rate in case it might choose to result a less fancy display at lower baud rates. < 1520202391 132809 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1520202913 71875 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520204466 867389 :wob_jonas!b03f18b6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.182 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520204853 80809 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520206237 947676 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520207152 652613 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds