< 1520035247 484217 :wob_jonas!b03f18c5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so hard to control it's no wonder so many non-black people oppose necromancy as being against the natural order < 1520035295 383395 :wob_jonas!b03f18c5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.197 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go to bed now, but I should get back to this with a fresher head later to try to understand what is really happening here < 1520035298 618225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1520035490 236926 :wob_jonas!b03f18c5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.197 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520036011 933258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the logreaders out there: Wipe Away is a standard card in Omnitell sideboards, and a) has Split Second, b) lets us get rid of everyone's lands and our own Omniscience (thus preventing us interfering with the combo) < 1520036022 31587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's another problem solved without interfering with the original deck < 1520037125 322957 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1520037569 812495 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now the "mbff" program in the Farbfeld Utilities can also read classes and levels too. < 1520037621 107355 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520037669 310055 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520037757 424728 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although it will not execute any class codes, meaning that it renders as displayed in the editor rather than at runtime, so auto-reversing Rotators won't be marked, Continuous Walls will not be continuous, etc) < 1520038291 121758 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520038488 437073 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520038885 22412 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqqrktnqrytntqay JOIN :#esoteric < 1520039392 529108 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1520040255 41245 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero < 1520040479 491837 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1520040914 186234 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep -r en2sv bin < 1520040968 762929 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo is a bit slow. < 1520040974 25095 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo hi < 1520040981 553061 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1520040998 936374 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :might end up timing out :( < 1520040999 289634 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/wälcåmä:exec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv < 1520041001 700935 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1520041014 207207 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin/en2sv < 1520041015 981043 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access bin/en2sv: No such file or directory < 1520041048 285257 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm bin/wälcåmä < 1520041056 852617 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1520041066 192411 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes no sense to delete one but not the other. < 1520041393 761442 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo, the slowest bot in mexico < 1520041528 298270 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that _is_ official. < 1520041532 344066 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? HackEgo < 1520041533 601132 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. HackEgo is the slowest bot in all Mexico! < 1520041731 677703 :Cale_!~cale@5-251-234-66.static.cosmoweb.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520042806 308888 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520042979 305860 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520043242 295958 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1520044174 141249 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( ITC MtG discussions can be on topic... ) < 1520044373 65218 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/nur < 1520044373 703230 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​"${1%% *}" "${1#* }" < 1520044380 170159 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/2 < 1520044381 13454 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​\` "$@" |& sport 2 < 1520044478 399895 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`mkx bin/,2//nur "$@" |& sport 2 < 1520044481 124535 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/,2 < 1520044505 329188 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Brass Herald < 1520044506 252234 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brass Herald \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 2/2 \ As Brass Herald enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ When Brass Herald enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all creature cards of the chosen type revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. \ Creatures o < 1520044515 688992 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`,2 card-by-name Brass Herald < 1520044517 180242 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:es of the chosen type get +1/+1. \ AP-U, 8ED-R \ < 1520044563 159974 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `2 < 1520044564 665533 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​`2 is equivalent to `1 , except that it starts displaying the _second_ output piece. Useful when you've already run a command forgetting to use `1. < 1520044953 293410 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1520046169 242036 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520046460 190799 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520046603 557510 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520049172 137536 :Hoolootwo!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue NICK :Hooloovo0 < 1520050411 997718 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aqqrktnqrytntqay QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1520050515 757082 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipmyftrxvlsgcwog JOIN :#esoteric < 1520051281 45947 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1520051868 140320 :sleffy!~sleffy@172.56.39.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520052585 675640 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520052867 693319 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520053141 115861 :sleffy!~sleffy@172.56.39.117 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1520053190 446054 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520053445 390833 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520053467 398338 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520055066 436138 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ipmyftrxvlsgcwog QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520056536 280286 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see this? https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg108914.html < 1520057618 376518 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520057785 736980 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520058074 664712 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1520058866 46521 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520059544 730034 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520061035 426427 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520061203 274855 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1520061275 387368 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520061872 259498 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520063681 714518 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520063968 630283 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1520064045 305575 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520064527 483391 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how the norms for the coin-bill transition get decided < 1520064532 727933 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yen has the highest coin at 500 which is 6 canadian dollars < 1520064537 35110 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile china has the biggest coin as 1 yuan or 20 cents < 1520064579 224865 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and canada is in the middle with biggest coin at 2 dollars < 1520064580 769938 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520064644 992965 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1520064819 643591 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1520065946 321085 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520065999 782607 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1520066031 451650 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1520067183 199665 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Countdown14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54267&oldid=53151 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+22) 10 < 1520067868 538382 :CADD!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqkoapuqsjtnylsb JOIN :#esoteric < 1520068366 396982 :CADD!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqkoapuqsjtnylsb NICK :AisRauli < 1520068991 611962 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520069516 89469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1520070534 554912 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wierd Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54268&oldid=54266 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+904) 10 > 1520070569 92545 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wierd Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54269&oldid=54268 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+13) 10 > 1520070657 934383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Wierd Machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54270&oldid=54269 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+0) 10 > 1520070971 855447 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54271&oldid=53221 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+49) 10 > 1520071065 712815 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54272&oldid=54271 5* 03Singingbanana 5* (+3) 10 < 1520071248 293076 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520071351 615570 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on the esowiki, what's the policy for writing about obfuscation (or golfing) techniques and notable obfuscated programs in a non-esoteric language, like perl or C or haskell? < 1520071375 352762 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm asking because there are now four or five attempts to prove M:tG turing complete, and we have to collect at least the links somewhere. < 1520071402 678564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we have one yet < 1520071410 508801 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may just be worth making a page about M:tG < 1520071420 707190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not intended as a language, but when seen as a language it's definitely esoteric < 1520071528 409389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can definitely store notable programs on the wiki (assuming appropriate licensing), although the Esoteric Files Archive is meant to be a better place for that < 1520071569 335394 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1520071669 933773 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can try to write about Turing-completeness and other stuff like that about Magic: the Gathering. < 1520071707 424325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the correct approach is something like this < 1520071731 439441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) move the StackFlow implementation to the talk page or page history, as it's not actually correct within the rules of the game (it requires players to consistently stack triggers in a particular order) < 1520071746 679771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) create a page that treats M:tG as an esolang, and focuses on its programming aspects < 1520071793 867107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the StackFlow implementation could be moved to a subpage, and put the complaints about it also on that subpage and/or the talk page of that subpage. < 1520071806 742094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :c) produce a concrete TWM program that can emulate any given Turing Machine by changing one of the inputs (i.e. proof of compilability) < 1520071840 102807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d) produce an article, hosted on an external website, that goes through the entire construction (I could use mine for this, but it might be fun to get it onto a better-known M:tG website) < 1520071979 630136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus points for actually doing this in a serious tournament and proving the whole thing to be broken < 1520072004 397310 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt WotC cares to put it on their own website, but you can try, I suppose. < 1520072016 925030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant a third-party M:tG articles websitee < 1520072019 526693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*website < 1520072023 137714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there are some that accept submissions < 1520072115 378890 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1520072178 882588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think I figured out the kill; assuming we're using Wild Cantor to get split-second protection for the whole thing, we can also use it to generate infinte mana by looping it, which lets us activate abilities < 1520072193 1080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can put a "you lose the game" ability (e.g. Door to Nothingness) on the stack /underneath/ the entire combo < 1520072260 98771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have to arrange for the loop to break when the halt state is reached, we do that by making the Rotlung Reanimator that handles the steady decrease insufficiently protected, so it acts like a waterclock rather than ROM < 1520072344 954717 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :once it hits zero the whole thing unravels, and if the opponent doesn't have a stifle effect they just lose (note that we can ensure they have no mana and no mana-generating permanents, so they'd need to do something like two spirit guides → manamorphose → stifle) < 1520072388 187551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also lets me make the article better as I can add in a reference to There's the Door, a deck which is based around giving the opponent Door to Nothingness and repeating the same gamestate until they use it on themself < 1520072413 129409 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, we only give them the chance to Door themselves once, if they refuse we go into the main combo (and because they've refused to Door themselves they're hopefully less likely to concede?) < 1520072487 879786 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aijxygbwpkzzcpac QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1520072504 85760 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tjuvkmyhznrbeucb JOIN :#esoteric < 1520072508 955291 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I would also like to link to the two or three previous proofs, the ones that assume players making certain simple decisions all the time < 1520072524 964633 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are important for history even if you make a better proof < 1520072601 123695 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, add those in a section for links to previous proofs < 1520072629 551439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: they're all in the same place on Alex Churchill's website, so you'd just link that < 1520072646 718335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd link it anyway as he came up with many of the techniques used < 1520072679 414515 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (on the kill) what the heck? why'd you need that? can't you just have a Platinum Angel or Abyssal Gatekeeper in play, make sure one of the creature-type specific toughness effects affect it as if it was one of the counters, and reduce everyone's life to zero in advance? < 1520072702 880195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the Door to Nothingness kill uses only one card above what we have already < 1520072721 44991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of the Platinum Angel kill but it needs two extra cards, the Angel itself and whatever you're using to reduce life totals < 1520072752 348367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're reducing life totals by attacking; you can get infinite extra turns with Emrakul but I don't see how you prevent the opponent simply blocking with the Angel < 1520072767 387753 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is other stuff about Magic: the Gathering on esolang wiki, such as [[Magic The Gathering card deck of programming language]], [[StackFlow]], and [[Talk:Undefined behavior]]. < 1520072785 313605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think we'd move the StackFlow stuff < 1520072796 314085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather leave the "card deck of programming language" alone because it's technically a different language < 1520072802 113238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe put it in a see also < 1520072845 992174 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Talk:UB thing is a reference, not actually immediately related < 1520072897 765107 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, leave those things alone because it is different, yes (and maybe put it in a see also). StackFlow stuff can be moved. And yes I know the Talk:UB thing is not actually related. I am only mentioning where Magic: the Gathering is mentioned on the wiki; making the new article about Magic: the Gathering is of course different to these things. < 1520072941 726695 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The stuff on [[Talk:Undefined behavior]] under "Magic: the Gathering" is just a joke anyways, not a real thing.) < 1520072955 901764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1520073070 779780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: by the way, did we ever figure out if M:tG was /only/ TC or whether it could be computable? < 1520073081 145351 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*uncomputable < 1520073098 68302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the aim would be to use a subgame card to differentiate a draw from a loss without ending the game, thus solving the halting problem < 1520073100 55442 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for the end condition, do you want the program to be able to cause a win or a lose, or are you satisfied with a construction that offers an infinity draw vs a win, or one that offers an infinity draw vs a lose? < 1520073124 946092 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm personally OK with draw vs. win because that has an observable effect on tournament results < 1520073135 885517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although win vs. loss would work even better as that means the program always halts < 1520073154 961450 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depend if you want to be Vintage or "pseudo-Vintage" or something more. < 1520073162 305638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, Shahrazad was banned in Legacy and I'm not aware of any other cards that are capable of observing infinite-loop draws < 1520073166 306704 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's definitely uncomputable, but only because of the infinite loops rule, and even then only if someone managed to formalize that rule precisely enough to know what it says for all situations, and I don't think anyone wants to do that. if you don't have the infinite loop rule, then M:tG with just the comprehensive rules and no tournament r < 1520073166 370116 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ules or silver border is computable. < 1520073184 127690 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right, the whole point of this is to prove that the infinite loops rule is broken < 1520073218 27864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it in a tournament and suddenly the judges need to solve the Goldbach Conjecture in order to work out what the result of the tournament is < 1520073243 991747 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, IIRC we decided it's obviously noncomputable, given a working definition < 1520073257 207062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hard part is to determine whether it's /paradoxical/, i.e. if we can set up a game where a player wins if and only if they don't win < 1520073261 718549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I believe the answer to that was no < 1520073286 651560 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just Legacy; Shahrazad is banned in Vintage, which is what is important. < 1520073352 525900 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If such a thing with Goldbach Conjecture occurs, and then, the player says, I have a proof of Goldbach Conjecture in my pocket I will show you... < 1520073389 183579 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you just want draw vs win or draw vs lose, then once you figure out the exact construction, it will become trivial enough to modify it with at most one extra card (say Impetous Sunchaser) that the opponent must kill you in his turn without a choice. This relies on the exit from the main loop being clean and finite though, so I could be w < 1520073389 247107 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rong. < 1520073412 134268 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1520073442 666674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well if the main loop exits, one player dies, that's trivial to do < 1520073454 619267 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the main loop /doesn't/ exit, then it's a draw by definition < 1520073459 495554 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why is Vintage important, as opposed to legacy? < 1520073467 643826 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vintage is the most permissive format < 1520073475 27638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if a card's banned in vintage it's banned everywhere < 1520073488 777515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning to aim the combo at Legacy, though, because that's the format that Omnitell is designed to do well in < 1520073524 343289 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520073536 251506 :Hoolootwo!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue JOIN :#esoteric < 1520073563 114665 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. for Vintage, you need to buy two dozen very expensive card to even stand a chance against serious opponents, and we don't want that in an elegant construction like what this should be unless it's absolutely necessary < 1520073694 5911 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Vintage will matter, unless you find that there's some card valid in Vintage but banned in Legacy and Two-headed Giant that really really helps make the setup work < 1520073941 797071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's an example of an Omnitell deck that already has several cards we need maindeck, and the ability to get the entire combo out of the sideboard without changing any maindeck cards: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113604 < 1520074071 229403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I picked a recent-ish version in the hope that the deck is still competitively viable) < 1520074269 204057 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what's the goal here? < 1520074303 984759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: the original goal is to create a Magic: the Gathering gamestate for which an arbitrary computation is required to determine the result of the game < 1520074319 777152 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, nice < 1520074325 106544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. as soon as the gamestate is set up, it's clear that the game is over either as an infinite loop or via the game-over state-based effect < 1520074346 144236 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not which? < 1520074352 210447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the slightly enhanced version of this is to do it in a deck that's competitive enough to win a game in a tournament, opposite a noncooperative opponent (assuming they don't just succeed) < 1520074352 545169 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for obfuscations in other notable programs, so far I've mostly just made writeups for some of them that interpret or compile some esoteric language < 1520074353 727813 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: right < 1520074358 456394 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*don't juts concede < 1520074366 77567 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it doesn't have to be reliable at this, just able to do it once < 1520074367 550352 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man, toby would have a field day < 1520074370 434428 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's of course a lot of such programs < 1520074405 865441 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current plan is to fit the whole thing into the sideboard of Omni-Tell (a Legacy deck that isn't doing so great at the moment but definitely used to be competitively viable, it's probably Tier 2/3 atm which is enough to win a game or two in a tournament) < 1520074416 407491 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect in practice the game would be declared a draw < 1520074475 14139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also want to write an entertaining article about it so that people will read it < 1520074509 641423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, AFAICT the tournament rules require you to memorise the program you're implementing, so we'll need that to be something that a human can reasonably memorise, too < 1520074514 13693 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: no, in practice you'd be disqualified and banned from magic forever and forcibly ejected from the building for even attempting to pull it off, all of which is supported by the tournament rules. < 1520074529 966438 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: which rule's being broken? slow play? < 1520074558 7153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is, the slow play rule says you can't continue a loop without being able to state the expecting resulted gamestate < 1520074564 36358 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I'm not up to my knowledge < 1520074566 701749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, we /do/ know the expected gamestate just before the loop ensd < 1520074568 120607 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the tournament rules < 1520074568 288150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ends < 1520074574 93203 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to look it up < 1520074580 305231 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disqualified makes sense I suppose, but that does not mean to be banned forever, and even if so, you should not be forcibly ejected from the building. < 1520074595 954495 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you'd probably only be ejected from the tournament site, not the whole building < 1520074599 895519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's no rule against performing a small finite number of actions (activating Door to Nothingness, casting Wipe Away targeting Door to Nothingness, sacrificing Wild Cantor) < 1520074625 939928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at this point neither player has any control over where the game goes from there because there's a split second spell on the stack and a self-sustaining cycle of mandatory triggered abilities < 1520074634 647210 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you call a judge and explain the situation < 1520074643 159161 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the outcome were resonably determinable and you could give an ELI5 explanation of why it works, then you'd probably get the win < 1520074647 792955 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I'd rule it a draw < 1520074667 778480 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, once you've demonstrated the loop once you can just shortcut to the eventual resulting gamestate, which is very helpful < 1520074676 310343 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd especially get a draw if your computation was something to which you didn't know the actual answer < 1520074682 702984 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: slow play is applicable, because donating a thousand lynxes isn't a "small number of finite actions", especially since you could have won already, but I think there might be other tournament rules violations < 1520074699 956088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that can legally be shortcut < 1520074706 39670 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's against the rules to donate them one at a time, but once you've demonstrated one iteration of a loop < 1520074710 356977 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know the exact end state, yes < 1520074715 710431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perfectly legal to say "I do that 999 more times" < 1520074719 263320 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, we know the exact endstate here < 1520074732 423751 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fairly /complex/ exact endstate but it's precise and doesn't involve any randomness or decisions < 1520074740 443708 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok wait, let me actually look up the rules < 1520074742 290510 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1520074752 57493 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wpn.wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents < 1520074768 123547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, decisions by the opponetn < 1520074820 170428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you prevent the combo triggering while you're trying to set it up by creating all the tokens first with their original creature types, and then looping Artificial Evolution (thus creating the connections between them) as the last thing you do < 1520074841 918501 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the time needed to make the proof should also counts against slow play if necessary; if you have proven you won in time, you do, otherwise you are disqualified. But you should not be ejected from the tournament site if spectators are allowed, since this isn't the kind of disturbing thing that you can affect if you aren't part of the game. < 1520074862 74606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you can't prove you've won, it's just a draw < 1520074869 261934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is that we're creating a loop and nobody knows whether it's infinite or not < 1520074879 25354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite loop = draw, finite = win < 1520074901 608402 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a relevant rule is in 5.2 saying "The result of a match or game may not be randomly or arbitrarily determined through any means other than the normal progress of the game in play. Examples include (but are not limited to) rolling a die, flipping a coin, arm wrestling, or playing any other game." < 1520074931 438548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: huh, so if the judges decide to just call the game a draw as they can't figure out what happens < 1520074936 665719 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that mean that the /judges/ are violating rule 5.2? < 1520074947 77115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that we aren't, everything that happens is entirely based on "normal" gameplay) < 1520074958 60034 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some card effects might cause the game result to be determined by a coin toss. < 1520074974 799556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's perfectly legal to arrange a gamestate in which a coin toss determines the result of the game as a consequence of the game's normal play < 1520074978 964520 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name mana clash < 1520074979 697054 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mana Clash \ R \ Sorcery \ You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both players' coins come up heads on the same flip. \ DK-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R < 1520074988 854896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise that card wouldn't be legal at all < 1520075006 456251 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not to say "let's toss a coin, loser of the flip concedes" or the like < 1520075006 616641 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So too can combinations of card effects cause the game result to depend on the Goldbach Conjecture, or whatever. < 1520075014 95547 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1520075156 270112 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the judges aren't going to decide that in this case. you're intentionally throwing away the match you could win and deliberately making yourself win or draw depending on some condition irrelevant to M:tG. it doesn't matter that other players in the tournament didn't pay you shiny dollars for it. < 1520075219 775199 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because it's a legal game state isn't enough. throwing away your win by just not playing your spells and letting the opponent finish you off with a weak deck if also illegal. < 1520075320 995168 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you're creating a loop and you don't know the outcome, you can't shortcut it though < 1520075348 994588 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you were to use a search for a counterexample to, say, P = NP < 1520075445 519277 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slow play will almost certainly also apply, because unless you use an accomplice as an opponent or judge, which is against tournament rules for other reasons, you'll have to do an hour long CS course to explain why your construction does exactly what you want, and not just the Magic interactions parts, but also how you emulate say a multiple-stack < 1520075445 582710 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :machine with a Minsky machine with an Amneisac machine with a Waterfall machine with M:tG. < 1520075503 446156 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by the way, you'd have to do the whole thing alone and without notes you've taken prior to the match. < 1520075533 451255 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By alone, I mean there'd be at most you, the opponent, and two judges to help you. < 1520075588 546145 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe a teammate each too if you manage to find a constructed two-headed giant tournament with a wide enough format to pull of the combo. < 1520075684 229464 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, or other team formats (I don't know if there are official tournaments with other team formats though) < 1520075757 833157 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yes, that is why I say, you will be disqualified for slow play unless you have proven it soon enough by yourself during the tournament. < 1520075789 460978 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm not sure, but I think legacy two-headed giant is technically DCI-supported, but only in the sense that Mirage block constructed is also DCI-supported, which means someone could hold a tournament in it and the results could be registered to DCI, but it's unlikely that anyone will every actually do it < 1520075832 12726 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: we might have to ask some M:tG judges for this, but I think even without the slow play, this would go against that bribery rule < 1520075833 8693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: as soon as the combo is set up, the game is legally over < 1520075836 262512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't slow play at that point < 1520075840 727099 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, alercah /is/ an M:tG judge) < 1520075862 303501 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah is an M:tG judge? I didn't know that. is he active or recently been active? < 1520075876 604814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :she, and I don't know < 1520075891 303796 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :former L3 < 1520075899 518186 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't been active for a year and a half < 1520075910 470545 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still recent as far as we're concerned I think < 1520075929 859940 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the lynx is new is irrelevant < 1520075945 908145 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not seem to me that bribery rule will have to do with it, or maybe it can if opponent concedes due to your proof instead of the judge saying you have already won and they don't have to concede, but I don't know. < 1520075947 774473 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the precedent would line up with what wob_jonas is saying: there is a point of mathematical complexity beyond which the play isn't permitted < 1520075969 125703 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :the precedent being infinite scry 2 < 1520075969 533431 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: even though it entirely takes place with legal game actions? < 1520075985 41202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :up until the point you sacrifice Wild Cantor, there is nothing hard to understand about the gamestate < 1520076015 58078 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes; there is a ruling disallowing using infinite scry 2 to arbitrarily reorder your library IIRC < 1520076017 253605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just creating a large number of tokens with specific characteristics, but that doesn't /do/ anything, you can just count the number of each type of token < 1520076026 626354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: that involves hidden information though < 1520076030 250361 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you mean apart from the donated lynxes artificially evolved to probably at least dozens of different texts? < 1520076041 237137 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how much you can golf this really < 1520076045 354035 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, you're donating a lot of token lynxes and editing the creature types in them < 1520076060 726537 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any problem with that, it's not conceptually different from creating 109280319840235 tokens < 1520076075 280053 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it still allows you to set up a loop, define a number of iterations, and set a specific output state < 1520076078 250479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the precise number may have to be recorded, and that's a pain in case it's relevant, but it's not fundamentally different from picking any other definite number < 1520076081 900681 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'll need either hundreds of *different* lynxes (ones with differently edited text) or an exponentially large power < 1520076084 647249 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :(namely, my library is in a specific order) < 1520076101 296229 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ruling was based more on "magic is not a game of mathematics" than the presence of hidden information < 1520076103 926456 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: the challenge there is the defined number of iterations < 1520076104 349626 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the number of lynxes that's the problem, but that there's so many different ones, each of which have to be tracked separately < 1520076129 896369 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well you have two loops < 1520076144 638482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first donates the opponent an arbitrarily large number of identical lynx tokens < 1520076159 902677 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1520076169 918214 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think anyone would have a problem with that; it's a bit of a bizarre thing to do but it's not fundamentally different from any other combo < 1520076195 278368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second loop casts Artificial Evolution twice at each of the tokens, which is clearly a defined operation; the only tricky part is that you don't always choose the same creature types < 1520076232 645619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO if you choose the same creature types every time that's clearly legal < 1520076236 704236 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait, the example I was thinking of was four horsemen, which has an indeterminate loop < 1520076244 371658 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should there be a ruling disallowing using infinite scry 2 to arbitrarily reorder your library? The only thing then to consider is slow play if it is take too long to reorder your library, which, if there are enough cards, it might do, otherwise it won't. < 1520076253 277987 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: yes, four horsemen is illegal as it has no bounded number of iterations < 1520076273 822446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the infinite scry 2 is legal so long as you have memorised the order of your library and thus can give an exact iteration count for bubble-sorting it < 1520076283 945600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is why nobody does it in practice) < 1520076295 287001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite scry 2 = bubble sort, four horsemen = bogosort < 1520076313 77884 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and slow play is already relevant: even without reordering the library, it's forbidden to take a note of all cards in the opponent's deck as you Cranial Extraction them for slow play, and reordering your library is on the sam eorder of magnitude < 1520076313 568619 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of these has a finite worst-case performance, the other an infinite worst-case performance < 1520076336 320088 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think if you pushed me on it < 1520076369 718364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes; unless the number of cards is low, it should count only slow play, is what I am saying. Rather than, just making the rules arbitrarily < 1520076370 498606 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ruling would be that "without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state" requires that you be able to provide those things in a reasonable time frame < 1520076379 879252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: yes, I think that's valid < 1520076392 405696 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you the program needs to be golfed to the extent that we can explain what it is quickly < 1520076396 883014 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520076422 547433 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're trying to explain how you have encoded a brainfuck interpreter in a minsky machine to the 10-year old across from you, it isn't going to go well < 1520076425 320351 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: without prior notes, yes < 1520076429 675755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exact iterations is easy; we can do too many without breaking the construction, so "3 trillion" is a simple valid number < 1520076433 970922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :expected resulting gamestate is much harder < 1520076439 449884 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: wait, isn't 11 years old the minimum age? < 1520076446 646007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that gamestate encodes the program and so we need to golf the program to make it as simple as possible < 1520076448 94119 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for players that is < 1520076453 306621 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on official tournaments < 1520076456 642497 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: there is no minimum AFAIK < 1520076457 722205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: there's a 7 year old who made the news for doing fairly well in an official tournament < 1520076464 629532 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow < 1520076468 843875 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1520076472 893505 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :under 13 you need parental permission for privacy law reasons IIRC but otherwise no rules < 1520076477 56201 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's under 18 < 1520076485 351687 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I've seen very young people play casual magic, but this is for tournaments < 1520076494 426954 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's why it was newsworthy < 1520076540 187467 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://compete.kotaku.com/7-year-old-magic-prodigy-cant-shuffle-cards-yet-but-can-1820619884 > 1520076550 110067 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StackFlow14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54273&oldid=52350 5* 03FireFly 5* (+2) 10/* Syntax */ line -> length (typo) < 1520076601 317221 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it is mandatory to shuffle the cards by yourself? < 1520076614 458407 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have someone to help you if you're disabled < 1520076626 401084 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being too young to be able to hold the deck is probably a comparable case < 1520076645 338307 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1520076651 795915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a local Magic club, I used to help a blind person sometimes, telling them about what the content of their own hand was (as they couldn't see it) < 1520076697 993635 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also played against them sometimes, announcing everything I was doing in detail because again, they couldn't see it) < 1520076743 483026 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most young tournament magic players can usually shuffle decks though < 1520076746 957986 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the "shuffle yourself" rule is to prevent 1500-card decks that can't reasonably be shuffled by one person, not to stop people who are physically unable < 1520076757 987414 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to preclude the use of e.g. card shuffling machines < 1520076758 247509 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: yes, that < 1520076767 382280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it's a maximum deck size limit < 1520076769 323541 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a soft one < 1520076771 409879 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1520076780 549110 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly thanks to Battle of Wits < 1520076781 550 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some debate about whether Battle of Wits decks are tournament-legal, because of this < 1520076798 506712 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rarely comes up in practice, because most decks don't want to be larger than a Battle of Wits deck, and even Battle of Wits is usually only 240 cards or something < 1520076803 429219 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520076818 898325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, Battle of Wits is the most expensive Modern deck, because it turns out the optimal build is to fill the deck full of Modern staples with only a few tutors < 1520076819 330397 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can shuffle 240 cards if you practice, and you can clearly practice in advance < 1520076831 191395 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha < 1520076886 207523 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just imagined a player after game 1 of a limited tournament realizing that they are basically hopeless against their opponent's deck < 1520076897 337147 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they side in 200 land and desperately hope they can draw their BoW < 1520076920 734534 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heared of one serious deck that's even bigger, using a large number of either Relentless Rats or Shadowborn Apostole (I forgot which) < 1520076945 926206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: that's done with other cards in limited sometimes < 1520076950 526111 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally Lost in the Woods or Pack Rat < 1520076983 393694 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520076984 995006 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the Pack Rat deck is better, because as long as it finds the Rat, it can typically beat anything but a board sweeper, and those are rare in limited) < 1520076994 244613 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I've seen that in action < 1520077020 636716 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pack rat is also very strong on its own < 1520077028 760211 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1520077034 625336 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :it barely needs the 39-swamp deck to be obscenely strong < 1520077050 342156 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might not practice in advance if you are playing Limited, but in such a case most of the cards will probably be conventional basic lands anyways, if you try to make large decks. < 1520077053 306240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so strong that casting it effectively wins the game, so you run 39 swamps alongside it to make sure you aren't mana screwed < 1520077055 173761 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only advantage it gains from the all-land deck is consistently hitting its drops < 1520077059 283022 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520077294 587632 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520077306 330300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's particularly important to run a lot of lands because you're usually mulliganning until it's in your starting hand < 1520077312 100638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you won't have as many lands drawn naturally as normal < 1520077343 85658 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yawgatog still hasn't added a list of the differences of the rules between the previous and current version (even though they have done for older versions) < 1520077722 76629 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The strange thing is that an esolang like countercall might be relevant for a reduction to M:tG, because it naturally has a call stack, and you could have trigger an ability triggered as many times as some counter represented as the number of certain objects < 1520077765 924568 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not countercall exactly, but some language with a similar gimmick < 1520077766 185383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well countercall is sub-TC < 1520077785 153595 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, counter + call stack doesn't seem impossible < 1520077832 524963 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: let me know if you actually figure it out btw, I have some friends who would enjoy hearing about it < 1520077863 675007 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: well we already have a working construction for the The Waterfall Model → M:tG side of things < 1520077871 632299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that TWM, while TC, is really hard to golf < 1520077875 967774 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, neat < 1520077878 456547 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, awesome < 1520077883 843616 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: I think ais523 more or less has the construction in his head now. but I'm really behind and will slowly try to understand it. first the part where M:tG is irrelevant, like how a reduction to Waterfall even works and how much it would blow up < 1520077895 715806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I need to write it down < 1520077917 48240 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Waterfall side of things seems to be the fragile side < 1520077920 977325 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you want to reduce something like the Amnesiac to Waterfall? < 1520077933 713116 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520077946 274822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520077951 10119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :‎[11:51] ‎<‎ais523‎>‎ yes, I need to write it down < 1520077952 422102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :‎[11:51] ‎<‎ais523‎>‎ the Waterfall side of things seems to be the fragile side < 1520077954 12488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :‎[11:52] ‎<‎ais523‎>‎ all the constructions I'm aware of scale from Minsky machines in a states + counters way < 1520077963 647422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what the minimum number of states + counters is for a universal Minsky machine program < 1520077964 164800 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520077970 767716 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's the problem < 1520077978 519527 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't know small universal Minsky machines < 1520077997 496429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Fractran self-interpreter is fairly small < 1520078031 531125 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no it isn't < 1520078036 205612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1779 fractions" < 1520078040 157250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what I was thinking of < 1520078094 179179 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you can use state transitions that add or subtract any integer < 1520078100 733648 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to use 100 states to add 100 < 1520078108 946860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, there's a smaller one: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1802570#1802570 < 1520078114 922338 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 fractions < 1520078138 289352 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1520078199 752251 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :M:tG has 237 creature types right now < 1520078220 968476 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(outside of silver-bordered land) < 1520078277 744065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't quite use all of them < 1520078288 362905 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1520078297 584403 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cat, Rat, Eldrazi, Cleric, Zombie would have side effects halfway through the setup < 1520078305 743792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, maybe not Rat actually < 1520078314 25377 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that still gives a lot of space < 1520078389 354991 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nightmare and Horror might also have some effects < 1520078404 104269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, we removed Faceless Devourer from the construction < 1520078408 151277 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good < 1520078411 180947 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we could get the same effect using cards that we already had < 1520078422 862068 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, almost, we need a static -2/-2 from somewhere < 1520078436 981770 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite < 1520078441 200266 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite \ 5WW \ Legendary Creature -- Praetor \ 4/7 \ Vigilance \ Other creatures you control get +2/+2. \ Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2. \ NPH-M, MM2-M < 1520078445 904863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would do < 1520078449 705908 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a static -2/-2 on what? < 1520078456 622019 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520078458 318967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :creatures we control < 1520078514 515145 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, Elesh herself could be the halt state, given that the oppoenet would control it < 1520078517 646423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes things even simpler < 1520078532 1762 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because once she dies the "base" triggered ability (the one that triggers itself) will stop working < 1520078543 545246 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Praetor is a unique creature type we aren't using anywhere else < 1520078616 53268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, at present this implements a TWM variant in which all waterclocks set themselves to 4 when exhausted (rather than an arbitrary number) < 1520078623 605135 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that changes the TCness of the language though < 1520078649 255239 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also Night of Souls' Betrayal < 1520078658 824800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elesh solves three problems at once though < 1520078667 544562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we /also/ needed a static +/+ effect on the opponent's creatures < 1520078672 848168 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we also needed a way to halt < 1520078684 144559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in addition to the static -/- that keeps the loop going) < 1520078693 981179 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason Harmless Offering can donate enchantments. I really don't understand why Wizards chose to allow that in such a cheap sorcery, sounds like it will be broken. < 1520078704 9639 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it was intended as a build-around < 1520078706 516789 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520078709 822356 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lyzhtizmbmmwnqev JOIN :#esoteric < 1520078717 628060 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they wanted to make it wide so that as many decks as possible that needed an effect like that would have one < 1520078721 291229 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also, um, what's that iconic black hero called < 1520078732 305132 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reprinted in tenth ed < 1520078738 178279 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or M2010 actually < 1520078763 995865 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, tenth edition < 1520078770 147604 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Ascendant Evincar < 1520078771 19781 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ascendant Evincar \ 4BB \ Legendary Creature -- Vampire \ 3/3 \ Flying (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying or reach.) \ Other black creatures get +1/+1. \ Nonblack creatures get -1/-1. \ NE-R, 10E-R, HOP-R < 1520078798 7233 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably no good < 1520078815 485636 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elesh Norn sounds better < 1520078832 520219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, -1/-1 on a legendary needs two of them to get -2/-2 < 1520078833 808141 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for this deck, not in general.) < 1520078852 232621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea is that we use a zombie token for almost every piece of RAM < 1520078859 136757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Elesh Norn for the remaining counter < 1520078872 392632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if she ever ends up dying, the whole combo breaks and the stack unwinds to the point at which we cast Wipe Away < 1520078881 122853 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have a Door to Nothingness activation on the stack just below that < 1520078907 747589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, I guess if we wanted to save a card, an attacking Emrakul (we could stifle the annihilator trigger) < 1520078951 283511 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but just one zombie token for each counter, right? unlike the Alex Churchill construction, which uses a ramp of creatures of increasing toughness, as many total as the counter < 1520078977 993707 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1520078987 262779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally the tokens die and just get replaced with a new token < 1520078991 838510 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does stifling save a card? you don't need a stifle effect otherwise, do you? or do you use one to start the loop? < 1520079001 387470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the deck naturally contains a copy of Trickbind < 1520079025 388445 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520079031 745568 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Trickbind < 1520079033 570605 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trickbind \ 1U \ Instant \ Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities.) \ Counter target activated or triggered ability. If a permanent's ability is countered this way, activated abilities of that permanent can't be activated this turn. (Mana abilities can't be tar < 1520079076 994676 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's helpful because post-combo, Trickbind + 4 copies of Force of Will mean that the opponent is unlikely to be able to interfere < 1520079142 384346 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want attacking, you have to pull the combo off before your combat. that's not an obstacle for this deck, right? < 1520079172 944951 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, in fact the setup even benefits from passing the turn on occasion < 1520079188 388305 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the setup sure < 1520079195 470443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the opponent will have no permanents and we'll have an extra turn right after, I don't see much of a problem from that < 1520079209 376729 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520079211 64496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing happens at mana ability speed in the middle of combat < 1520079214 855682 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he will untap though < 1520079217 773529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the trigger < 1520079220 216673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: nothing /to/ untap < 1520079232 135643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, you don't untap if you don't get a turn < 1520079235 54736 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :untap phase is part of your turn < 1520079238 103428 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you kill all his permanents too? what with? < 1520079245 683946 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not kill, we bounce them with Wipe Away < 1520079264 849527 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok... < 1520079301 127928 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds a bit dangerous because it could trigger some leaves tb abilities, but I guess that can't be helped < 1520079319 114993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can get Trickbind before doing that < 1520079324 794516 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1520079346 746605 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, there's always a danger period immediately after we're in the start state (our entire deck in our hand, Omniscience or Dream Halls in play) < 1520079352 61383 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's definitely safer than leaving arbitrary permanents in play. the alternative is exiling all permanents < 1520079354 144586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but before we've fully neutralised the opponent < 1520079371 534852 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, you exile them from his hand later < 1520079375 330191 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Cranial Extraction < 1520079388 515279 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1520079388 985972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the current version, Extraction turned out to be unneeded < 1520079394 546073 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just let them exist in hand and counter anything they try to play < 1520079402 751514 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520079407 766476 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1520079415 309379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's not much that can be played with no mana and no permanents, after all < 1520079434 946429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have four hard counters in hand < 1520079449 334190 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not 100% secure, but it becomes more so over time < 1520079451 408884 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520079560 174354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need to pass the turn to remove the summoning sickness from the copy of Emrakul that stays on the battlefield to legend-rule the one we play as part of the loop) < 1520079624 416627 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't being able to pass the turn cost one or more cards? if you just need haste, you can give it with one card, especially since you already have Evolution < 1520079665 674216 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would it? < 1520079680 558106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emrakul gives you an extra turn when you hardcast it < 1520079693 100581 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so passing the turn hardly does anything < 1520079694 281874 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520079733 89949 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it ends some effects, probably none of them are crucial < 1520079745 746050 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we're using any of them during the setup phase < 1520079762 551020 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not trying to keep anything alive with a growth despite the continuous -2/-2, right? < 1520079798 533729 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1520079813 142866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some things we have to keep alive but we can use Hungry Lynx to put +1/+1 counters on them < 1520079817 438339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :during the setup, that is < 1520079825 221910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's another use of using the same card for two purposes < 1520079832 507180 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520079931 710419 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all that is after you set up the infinite card recycling combo, right? < 1520079944 43392 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1520079957 439971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infinite combo exists "naturally" in Omnitell < 1520079961 982331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if most people noticed, though < 1520079970 856045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they don't expect a Regrowth effect to cost 27 mana < 1520079990 209458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with Omniscience out, though, the cost gets reduced to 0 so we can do it easily) < 1520080007 654102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general the deck doesn't /need/ a 27 mana regrowth so people weren't looking for one < 1520080009 482009 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we do, so :-) < 1520080435 434816 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficulty is not just the 27 mana, but coming out positively in card balance in them. and I'm not quite sure green would consider that natural, because green has Recollect/Reclaim effects which get one card back and cost one card, plus Repopulate which is an instant that returns creatures only. < 1520080487 407871 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one thing to live longer by swapping some Conjurer's Baubles, but much more difficult to make it infinite and returning arbitrary sorceries < 1520080533 36412 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Beacons and the Elixir can do it, but those aren't good for us, firstly because you need two, secondly because then you need a way to get rid of cards you don't need < 1520080654 536682 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, once you set up the infinite card recycling and the Omniscience, Manamorphose would give you infinite mana in any color if you needed that; but you probably don't need it, because using activated abilities can cause difficulties with taking the choice away later. < 1520080763 895125 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still laughing at the Harmless Offering. I should addquote that. < 1520080813 926086 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? addquote < 1520080815 80501 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :addquote? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1520080815 548714 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quote < 1520080817 170550 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb. < 1520080821 203703 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quote format < 1520080822 621087 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote format? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1520080824 917197 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quote formatting < 1520080826 506182 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote formatting? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1520080828 516949 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1520080850 940878 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#`addquote oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes < 1520080883 564373 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quoteformat < 1520080887 512889 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoteformat is: message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two. < 1520080942 896310 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes < 1520080951 573415 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1322) oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes < 1520081109 159000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: for the mana ability speed version of this, we can do that using Wild Cantor < 1520081120 468497 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the instant speed version, we don't need Wild Cantor at all < 1520081127 555757 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the trigger would be donating Elesh Norn) < 1520081138 987928 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Harmless Offering < 1520081139 983564 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Harmless Offering \ 2R \ Sorcery \ Target opponent gains control of target permanent you control. \ EMN-R < 1520081144 187693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it's a sorcery < 1520081147 114884 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorcery speed version then :-) < 1520081153 269484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, hmm < 1520081161 354593 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure we can easily trigger this without a Wild Cantor < 1520081171 391382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be a good reason to leave it in < 1520081189 799879 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, just throw in an Orrery, you'll find you need it anyway sooner or later :-) < 1520081191 691847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing it at split second speed is flashier (and harder to interfere with) < 1520081203 972181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: some versions of the deck actually play a Quicken maindeck < 1520081216 932115 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not my reference list < 1520081221 354898 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other mana ability speed things comparable to Wild Cantor though < 1520081276 914364 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phyrexian Tower is the most famous one < 1520081331 910009 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1520081382 269711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't really fit very well in the deck, though, as it doesn't naturally play creatures < 1520081456 841781 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no one card that lets you repeatedly draw and discard at instant speed, right? Jayemdae Tome and that colored but cheaper version they printed later allows drawing at instant speed, but instant speed discard is rare < 1520081485 507117 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's all sorts of looting < 1520081546 296766 :AisRauli!uid21876@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yqkoapuqsjtnylsb QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1520081559 741388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you want that for? < 1520081567 554772 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww, my searches are getting dirty by all these Portal cards < 1520081598 757163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are quite a few creatures with abilities that cost "discard a card" < 1520081634 676850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Mesmeric Trance < 1520081635 627325 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mesmeric Trance \ 1UU \ Enchantment \ Cumulative upkeep {1} (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.) \ {U}, Discard a card: Draw a card. \ IA-R, ME2-R < 1520081639 223969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that what you want? < 1520081640 907319 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, I was just thinking because Dimir Guildmage is so useful if you have enough mana, because both the discard and the draw can target any player. you can make the opponent discard all cards with it... not that that really helps in this construction < 1520081671 9023 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm thinking more of something that lets you discard a card, force the opponent to discard a card, or you draw a card, any of these at instant speed and multiple times < 1520081689 581855 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that probably doesn't exist all on one card < 1520081711 728681 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making the opponent loot is not good enough, he'll still have cards in his hand, until he loses from not being able to draw < 1520081757 57636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wizards don't like instant speed discard < 1520081800 948606 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1520081813 785542 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still happens sometimes, but not just as a plain activated ability for no reason < 1520081828 497085 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the colored Jayemdae is called Scepter of Insight < 1520081835 960600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Necrogen Spellbomb would work if you didn't have to sacrifice it < 1520081847 161272 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Necrogen Spellbomb < 1520081847 992886 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Necrogen Spellbomb \ 1 \ Artifact \ {B}, Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Target player discards a card. \ {1}, Sacrifice Necrogen Spellbomb: Draw a card. \ MRD-C < 1520081854 319621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think that's about as close as you'll get < 1520081875 986079 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can get a bit closer than that < 1520081897 296354 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Cinderhaze Wretch < 1520081898 156436 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cinderhaze Wretch \ 4B \ Creature -- Elemental Shaman \ 3/2 \ {T}: Target player discards a card. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ Put a -1/-1 counter on Cinderhaze Wretch: Untap Cinderhaze Wretch. \ SHM-C < 1520081926 215239 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Disrupting Scepter < 1520081927 118461 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disrupting Scepter \ 3 \ Artifact \ {3}, {T}: Target player discards a card. Activate this ability only during your turn. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, 9ED-R < 1520081930 420323 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and several more similar ones < 1520081936 686651 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those don't draw cards < 1520081950 344542 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1520081962 493751 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said Necrogen Spellbomb because it lets you draw too < 1520081970 911407 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, makes sense < 1520082022 999695 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have realized, I have the white and green spellbombs (gain life and animate land) and have seen the red one (shock), and each of them has a draw a card ability. < 1520082100 722959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two cycles of spellbombs, I think? < 1520082119 516112 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two? < 1520082144 252471 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, they made a worse one in Scars of Mirroding < 1520082154 208892 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how they made a cycle of worse Guildmages in RTR < 1520082184 532202 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Nihil Spellbomb < 1520082185 556969 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nihil Spellbomb \ 1 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Nihil Spellbomb: Exile all cards from target player's graveyard. \ When Nihil Spellbomb is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may pay {B}. If you do, draw a card. \ SOM-C, C13-C, C17-C < 1520082196 286239 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a pretty widely played card < 1520082205 902635 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, maybe they aren't worse < 1520082215 435908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :exiling a graveyard and drawing a card for 1B is a pretty useful effect < 1520082233 82462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the exact wording makes it usable in some combo decks < 1520082242 147900 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have copies of Lifespark Spellbomb and Sunbeam Spellbomb. they're not very useful, although Lifespark Spellbomb might perhaps find some marginal utility in an infinite mana combo deck < 1520082263 844935 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520082472 372275 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, back to the main topic < 1520082595 907719 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program loop is in your turn. you simulate counters with one token of a specific creature type each. you use Hungry Lynx controlled by the opponent to have triggers the trigger on when the counter would get reduced to zero. < 1520082672 972318 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you want to simulate The Amnesiac from Minsk level 1, and to avoid having to use triggers with a decrease effect, you modify each trigger by adding a constant to every counter, and keep reducing the counters. < 1520082680 608191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1520082707 58350 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you reduce them slower than the program triggers by using triggers on objects you control... I'm not sure if that works really < 1520082724 21163 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the strange card you used for that now? < 1520082765 206991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noxious Ghoul < 1520082776 648029 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we control the Ghoul, and also one Rotlung Reanimator < 1520082785 94288 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :set to Zombie for both creature types < 1520082806 79024 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we create a zombie token via the reanimator, it immediately dies due to the opponent's Elesh Norn < 1520082810 583071 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rotlung reanimator is for recreating the counter after the Hungry Lynx triggered so it's usable again < 1520082811 641414 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus causing another zombie token to be created, etc. < 1520082820 994181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: we use them for two purposes < 1520082825 470473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opponent has them for recreating the counters < 1520082831 778128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have one for creating this infinite loop of zombies dying < 1520082845 398261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :every dead zombie triggers the Noxious Ghoul and -1/-1's all the counters < 1520082849 951616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Noxious Ghoul < 1520082851 491983 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noxious Ghoul \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie \ 3/3 \ Whenever Noxious Ghoul or another Zombie enters the battlefield, all non-Zombie creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. \ LGN-U, HOP-U < 1520082870 34129 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why are two players enough for this? < 1520082907 636691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, let's start at the "main loop", where the only things on the stack are a Noxious Ghoul trigger and Rotlung Reanimator trigger (in either order) < 1520082916 286101 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both controlled by us, as the active player < 1520082925 731314 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can stack them in either order, but it doesn't matter which < 1520082940 56450 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the Reanimator trigger goes first, it just creates another 0/0 zombie, which gives us another of each trigger < 1520082964 971683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's always one Reanimator trigger and arbitrarily many Noxious Ghoul triggers, but the point is that it doesn't matter how many Ghoul triggers we allow to stack up before resolving them < 1520082967 780750 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the counters are also recreated by Noxious Ghoul, and you use some Radiant Destiny to make those tokens not die, right? < 1520082987 512551 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the counters are recreated by Rotlung Reanimators controlled by the opponents < 1520082998 603994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can use Blades of Velis Vel to make them Zombies in addition to their other types < 1520083014 998049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they don't get caught in the "blast radius" of the Noxious Ghoul < 1520083028 412428 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be doable without, using mathematics to make sure that the toughness never falls to 0, but that's harder < 1520083076 962809 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the point is that what we have on our side of the field leads to an infinite sequence of Noxious Ghoul triggers < 1520083083 212218 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it doesn't matter how many Ghoul triggers we allow to stack up before resolving them" => it's not so simple. that might mean, depending on how exactly the infinite loop rules work, that you're permitted to draw the game at will. if that's true, then you must use a construction where the program can cause you to win, as opposed to one where the pro < 1520083083 275563 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gram causes you to lose if it terminates. < 1520083086 288245 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :/unless/ something happens to Elesh Norn, in which case the sequence will end < 1520083102 466936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the rules say you can never choose to do something infinitely many times in a row if you have another option < 1520083137 498381 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that if there's a legal stacking combination on our side that leads to game over, we have to take it < 1520083157 192982 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's clear that if any combination leads to game over, the combination of always stacking the reanimator trigger below the ghoul trigger will do it < 1520083164 610149 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH! now we use "counter" in three different ways < 1520083175 987548 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1520083186 14606 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's use "variable" in the explanation then < 1520083195 345805 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and none of them is your fault < 1520083206 977142 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :minsky machines used "counter" for decades < 1520083224 678598 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, if a noxious ghoul trigger causes one of the opponent's creatures representing a variable to die < 1520083231 901052 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: don't worry, it's all counter-intuitive. < 1520083234 670258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will be a range of triggers on the opponent's side too, via game rules those always resolve first < 1520083259 990546 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're commutative in the sense that they all act independently so the order in which the opponent stacks them doesn't matter < 1520083298 466969 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the opponent triggers are commutative < 1520083312 560090 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the triggers a) recreate the dead creature as a 2/2+2/2 token (unless it was Elesh Norn), b) put +1/+1 counters on creatures of a specific creature type < 1520083327 591447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b) will affect both ROM and RAM, but for ROM it doesn't matter how high the toughness is as it never dies anyway < 1520083369 120120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only relevant part of the effect is the one that toughens up variables other than the one that just became zero < 1520083402 621512 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have "when a counter hits 0, its value becomes 4 and a constant is added to each other counter" < 1520083444 246457 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're saying that extra triggers of the special Reanimator doesn't matter, because we only move forward with the trigger of the Noxious Ghoul. but what happens when we have triggers by the ordinary Reanimators, the ones that recreate counters. isn't it a problem to stack those in the wrong order, with respect to the Noxious Ghoul trigger? < 1520083471 61657 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: they're owned by a different player < 1520083473 89204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, the opponent < 1520083481 869119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's our turn, so our triggers stack before theirs and thus resolve after theirs < 1520083499 437206 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so both the Lynxes and the per-counter Reanimators are owned by the opponent? I see < 1520083532 818150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1520083542 882708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, controlled, not owned < 1520083563 970898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically speaking we own all the cards involved, this is at least partly because we don't want to rely on specific cards existing in the opponent's deck < 1520083565 304248 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what card exactly did you use as a lord effect, to add toughness to the tokens? < 1520083572 195870 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520083574 81172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elesh Norn again < 1520083580 120900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes the tokens come in as 4/4s < 1520083592 973322 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1520083594 449614 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a deviation from TWM's spec, because it's meant to be arbitrary there < 1520083598 523103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I believe the language is still TC < 1520083619 4848 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :who controls the single tokens that represent the variables? < 1520083622 228827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :opponent < 1520083630 313000 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, because he has the reanimator < 1520083633 769017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :opponent controls all ROM and RAM, we control the clock < 1520083635 233275 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, so that's why Elesh Norn works < 1520083646 996375 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's impressive golfing, yes < 1520083659 173842 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you'd need some other lord you copy or something < 1520083664 98048 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( So... what would happen if at a sanctioned M:tG tournament, two players were to set up a game state where the winner depends on whether the Goldbach conjecture is true or not? ) < 1520083674 447281 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(poor referee) < 1520083677 791344 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1520083678 906974 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: we were debating that earlier < 1520083694 954181 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any legal option, the practical option would likely be to call the game a draw < 1520083703 320397 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, setting that up without violating slow play rules will be hard < 1520083711 575868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we need to be able to state the resulting gamestate in a reasonable length of time < 1520083716 480784 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it'll need to be heavily golfed < 1520083724 268922 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: we were talking about that earlier. I was arguing that the player who sets it up would be disqualified no matter what, the other player might continue if he calls a judge early and doesn't cooperate < 1520083735 938637 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but after alercah's statements, I'm no longer convinced of this. < 1520083741 203322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the Collatz Conjecture would be golfier < 1520083761 324322 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it is still very unlikely that you could set this up, because you'd need to set up and explain everything without notes you took before the tournament, on a strict time limit to an impatient judge < 1520083761 409152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically made for counter machines < 1520083819 476882 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and either of those might be easier than to set up a universal turing machine, which is what you'd need to encode some hard cryptographical problem < 1520083852 978103 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wonder if you could do even more golfier by encoding factoring of some particular composite number of your choice < 1520083868 957824 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more precisely the decision problem of whether it has a factor between 2 and a particular limit < 1520083901 645465 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a factor that's 3 modulo 4 and below a particular limit, that might be slightly golfier so you don't have to skip 1 < 1520083939 678708 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you pick a number with n digits at random (where n is large), what's the probability that it'll be hard to factorise quickly? < 1520083949 496141 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the benefit of that is that you could just make up a number on the spot < 1520083954 127779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have no idea whether it lead to a win for you or not < 1520083955 685262 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to pick one at random < 1520083964 255546 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can choose a particular easy to remember number < 1520083973 602169 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one with most middle digits zero < 1520083975 458607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes but the point is that you need to not yourself know whether or not it's composite < 1520083977 800039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't know who won < 1520083987 687402 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you choose one that's definitely composite < 1520083991 130015 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just don't know its factors < 1520084017 711620 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you win if the factor is lower than a limit you set < 1520084028 153366 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you set the limit right so it doesn't come out trivial < 1520084065 890468 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :primality testing is too easy if the judge has access to the internet, you'd need a much higher number for it to be hard < 1520084069 393434 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want factoring < 1520084090 722196 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see, so you use a probably-prime test, see it says "not prime" < 1520084094 502333 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still don't know what the factor is? < 1520084106 737212 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1520084202 229400 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like a composite number you'd use for RSA, although you might use a challenge that's slightly easier than you'd use for real world cryptography, as long as it still won't be factored during the tournament < 1520084262 847789 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you choose an easy to learn one, one which has a form where all but six digits at the start and six digits at the end are zero, which probably would be too few digits for real world cryptography, but OK here < 1520084280 242272 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and unlike in real world cryptography, nobody needs to have ever known the factors < 1520084285 386319 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even the computer that generated the number < 1520084322 251065 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it's probably best if nobody knows the factors and the answer < 1520084346 324007 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you certainly aren't allowed to know that, because you knowing and not telling would probably be a tournament rules violation < 1520084458 681032 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :per tournament rules 4.1 "Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match." < 1520084475 92033 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you aren't allowed to know the result of the Turing machine but not reveal it < 1520084661 515068 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's rather strong < 1520084681 729954 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it fails to limit the scope of the questions) < 1520084898 848799 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The collatz conjecture is probably better < 1520084941 993671 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's golfier, and if the opponent or a judge solves it, then we've won regardless of what happens with the tournament < 1520085286 827631 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you certainly wouldn't get disqualified for trying this < 1520085297 267396 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the very worst, you get an upgraded slow play game loss < 1520085329 508514 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if you kept at it you could get yourself disqualified but really? < 1520085348 884941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you got disqualified it would be for Stalling < 1520085379 66835 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: not even if you would succeed? as opposed to trying it but never getting even remotely close < 1520085385 614118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think there's precedent saying that if you're genuinely performing your game actions as fast as possible, and they lead to progress in the gamestate, it's not Stalling even if those actions aren't working towards a win < 1520085395 403867 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: and does the bribery chapter matter for this? < 1520085425 266140 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't bribery any more than Mana Clash is < 1520085429 100997 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and they're not working for a draw either? < 1520085430 118523 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's correct < 1520085435 103237 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :stalling must be explicitly to abuse the time limit < 1520085451 539573 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could eventually get disqualified for intentional slow play < 1520085466 333792 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I would only consider that after a game loss < 1520085515 283677 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1520085518 731101 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 might be right then < 1520085548 476729 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that this is hard to pull of, but probably not impossible < 1520085583 82303 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to look up some card prices then, to see if any of the pieces we used are very expensive < 1520085618 86180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the maindeck is a tournament-viable Legacy deck so it's naturally expensive < 1520085624 45709 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think our additions would be very cheap < 1520085640 417237 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my guess too, but since I can look them up, I will < 1520085664 946175 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if any piece is expensive, I can look for cheaper substitutes < 1520085666 652764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's try to get a complete list of added cards < 1520085718 303359 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul is the core of the combo, we definitely need those three < 1520085730 644247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything else is more flexible but we can't do it with those three alone < 1520085778 973187 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently we have Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite as the -2/-2 effect, and Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution (OK this is probably inflexible), Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor as the setup < 1520085795 805304 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 added cards, not bad < 1520085807 726118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means we only have to remove half the sideborad < 1520085809 657997 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sideboard < 1520085843 541910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(we need a few other cards that are in the deck naturally, like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; Wipe Away; and Omniscience+Enter the Infinite) < 1520085877 989326 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many copies of Emrakul? < 1520085885 844841 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :two, there are already two in the deck naturally though < 1520086008 30781 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus 4 Omniscience, 4 Force of Will (that latter seems the most expensive so far) < 1520086017 413936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Force of Will is in the deck naturally too < 1520086032 409936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it isn't technically required, just makes it harder for the opponent to screw with us < 1520086043 183879 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, it's a tournament-viable Legacy deck and thus will naturally be expensive < 1520086051 980589 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520086059 642252 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although obviously you can resell it afterwards < 1520086081 263216 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(resell the expensive cards that is) < 1520086095 106200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't planning to actually do this myself < 1520086100 42752 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1520086107 199041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :among other things, there aren't many Legacy tournaments around here < 1520086110 640241 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just talking in general, since you brought up the possibility < 1520086121 907069 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I want to justify the old joke that mathematics is cheap < 1520086310 413472 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 City of Traitors (isn't cheap either) < 1520086318 604563 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I know it's not essential) < 1520086342 651313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if there's an argument for putting the Wild Cantor maindeck < 1520086358 286447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would also act as acceleration, and the reference version I linked earlier can generate red mana < 1520086381 98671 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then 4 Scalding Tarn, 1 Volcanic Island (pretty expensive) < 1520086391 975001 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, it's a Legacy deck and it isn't monocolour < 1520086409 401494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, Steam Vents would work almost as well < 1520086428 386214 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1520086454 255142 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not with Misty Rainforest, mind you < 1520086470 509344 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a search land < 1520086477 153751 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1520086484 358957 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steam Vents is one of the ravnica rare duals < 1520086487 522964 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be searched for < 1520086494 367870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1520086504 497891 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's two life worse than Volcanic Island, but in Legacy combo decks two life is rarely relevant < 1520086509 766313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it comes up sometimes but not very often) < 1520086525 579997 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many dual lands out there, and many of the cycles have unconnected names < 1520086582 270436 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :-( < 1520086598 695559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do it because they want generic names that they can print on any plane < 1520086604 223068 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1520086616 703388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not convinced by this reasoning as it rarely worked out in practice < 1520086628 931442 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the Steam Vents cycle has been printed only on Ravnica < 1520086640 545922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they ended up having to print Dragonskull Summit on Ixalan, which doesn't have dragons < 1520086651 309353 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometime they manage names that at least sound similar, such as Barren Moor, Forgotten Cave, Lonely Sandbar, Secluded Steppe, Tranquil Thicket; and of course it gets much easier if you see the actual cards, with art and frame and all < 1520086709 503441 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does Ixalan at least have skulls on pirate flags? < 1520086721 644941 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1520086781 272667 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Territorial Hammerskull < 1520086782 215159 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Territorial Hammerskull \ 2W \ Creature -- Dinosaur \ 2/3 \ Whenever Territorial Hammerskull attacks, tap target creature an opponent controls. \ XLN-C < 1520086791 553226 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a pirate < 1520086926 744840 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Steam Vents cycle got reprinted in the Return to Ravnica block because it's so iconic, and if it weren't reprinted, it was because of its power level, which they might not have realized back in ravnica. I'm not sure that's too relevant about the naming. < 1520086941 63197 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I guess that's still "on Ravnica" for planes < 1520086942 841995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they haven't reprinted the Selesnya Sanctuary cycle either < 1520086946 425322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does have a plane-specific name < 1520086948 765973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which I rather liked < 1520086954 440900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they consider that one too powerful too, though < 1520086964 730580 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ravnica had a /lot/ of color fixing < 1520086966 333388 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have reprinted that in commanders < 1520086967 680375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of very high quality < 1520086979 310351 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is commons so it's cheap enough that I have four-of of most of them < 1520086993 708805 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :four copies of five or six out of the ten I think < 1520087031 52773 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't need to reprint if it's common and there's enough on the market < 1520087052 453867 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with nice mirrodin frames too < 1520087090 404762 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate the font used in the title line of the recent cards. why did they have to choose a worse font, after they replaced the horrible colors and font of the old title line in Mirrodin? < 1520087120 84383 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1520087123 202945 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ambiguous < 1520087149 368756 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the current version of the font was chosen to be a font that isn't publicly available, to make the cards harder to counterfeit < 1520087315 744652 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirage to invasion has bad colors and a very bad font on the title line. mirrodin to theros has a good font and good colors (not counting some time spiral block shenanigans). khans of tarkir to present has a somewhat worse font but still good colors. < 1520087335 365138 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, counterfeiting is their reason? that sounds a bit stupid < 1520087444 185096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a major threat to their business, given the difference between the amount they charge for cards and the amount they cost to print < 1520087458 35810 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why they started adding the hologram stamp on rares < 1520087528 783225 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that Omnitell deck, which already includes wishes, is any card from the original sideboard necessary? < 1520087547 343161 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, can you just throw the whole sideboard away to fill it with cards for the turing-machine setup? < 1520087588 242528 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hologram makes sense, sure < 1520087604 67160 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enter the Infinite and Show and Tell in the sideboard are not technically necessary, but they make it a lot stronger < 1520087626 50322 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Release the Ants is the intended finisher of the deck, although I think that's a mistake because there's a reliable kill just with the cards in the maindeck < 1520087634 361927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus Wipe Away < 1520087662 442749 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But doesn't everyone have much better resolution scanners these days than printers, so the text outline for any card can be easily reconstructed? I have scanned graphics and photos in 600 dpi because it doesn't cost me anything more than a 300 dpi scan, and once you actually want to make decent quality counterfeits, you can go even higher. < 1520087701 671917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not commercial printers, their output has a better resolution than most scanners (and most modern printers, for that matter) can manage < 1520087705 895344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least when printing text < 1520087712 226003 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they print different layers separately < 1520087751 284988 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why the easiest way to tell a counterfeit is normally to look at the edge of the expansion symbol with a powerful magnifying glass < 1520087776 142324 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :printers whose input for that was a set of pixels, rather than vector-format, tend to be unable to recreate it accurately, it's obviously fuzzy < 1520087797 229119 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520087842 950303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, the maindeck Impulse is only there for a combo with Firemind's Foresight, so if you remove one you can remove the other too < 1520087993 601755 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1520088076 201417 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1520088734 263175 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not likely that just Sigma-one or primitive recursion or something is easier to simulate in M:tG than full Turing-completeness, right? < 1520088822 542317 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would be possible if we could have a trigger that copies a token to another token with the same variable toughness but different type < 1520088903 542852 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps if we represented variables with as many tokens as its value < 1520089032 152125 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Fungal Sprouting < 1520089033 422251 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungal Sprouting \ 3G \ Sorcery \ Create X 1/1 green Saproling creature tokens, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control. \ M13-U < 1520089047 206289 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Kin-Tree Invocation < 1520089049 486047 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kin-Tree Invocation \ BG \ Sorcery \ Create an X/X black and green Spirit Warrior creature token, where X is the greatest toughness among creatures you control. \ KTK-U < 1520089050 208816 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's more promising < 1520089069 413030 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Miming Slime < 1520089070 752046 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miming Slime \ 2G \ Sorcery \ Create an X/X green Ooze creature token, where X is the greatest power among creatures you control. \ GTC-U < 1520089231 113703 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't easily repeat those effects, because Spellbinder and similar effects are optional < 1520089240 51557 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mandatorily that is < 1520089543 41690 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how much does the translation from that small Minsky machine to Amnesiac level 1 blow up? I think going from Amnesiac to Waterfall doesn't blow up too much. < 1520089818 662039 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amnesiac L1 is an O(n) blowup with the mechanical compilations < 1520089824 101771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it's normally less if you do it by hand < 1520089869 919280 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: O(n) blowup when the Minsky machine can increment or decrement variables by any fixed integer, and that integer is represented in binary in the description? < 1520089875 202111 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi < 1520089875 841062 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 031450Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW090 SCT110 BKN250 09/M02 Q0992 R08/19//95 NOSIG < 1520089879 337866 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...warm < 1520089891 314455 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the blowup doesn't depend on the integer increment values, but only on the number of counters and states? < 1520089907 340874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, the blowup is to remember which state you're in when you do an increment < 1520089912 576120 :Cale_!~cale@5-251-234-66.static.cosmoweb.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520089913 781818 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar egbb < 1520089914 373215 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGBB 031450Z 07013KT 3000 BR OVC006 01/M00 Q0993 < 1520089917 565538 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1520089929 551676 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might fit the 237 creature types < 1520089932 974515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that time looks out of date < 1520089946 53819 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I should've checked before I left the house... could have picked a different coat < 1520090025 820207 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1749905/code-golf-fractran/1802570#1802570 --- WTF! this is on Stack Overflow? as opposed to Code Golf SE or something? < 1520090092 7800 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ais523 linked to that earlier, but I didn't look) < 1520090117 566993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it predates PPCG being created < 1520090120 437863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and got locked for being offtopic < 1520090140 428617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PPCG got created mostly as a result of posts like that being repeatedly locked, people liked them and wanted somewhere to put them < 1520090141 157109 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fractran might be a good language for this sort of M:tG construction too < 1520090155 554064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, divisibility tests in M:tG are hard < 1520090176 774758 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1520090186 719811 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd store only the prime exponents < 1520090198 626193 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the representation as a single integer < 1520090202 483195 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but multiple counters < 1520090227 871325 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be as good as Waterfall, but still < 1520090531 973745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in that case, tests for simultaneous presence of a particular subset of creatures are hard to do in M:tG < 1520090707 284434 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you still use Blades of Velis Vel to protect the opponent's Rotlung Reanimators from the breath of the Ghouls, right? < 1520090739 117723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, you need /something/ to add an additional creature type to it < 1520090772 719086 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, Blade of Velis Vel is the easiest for that < 1520090807 632718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be a way to do it mathematically, have their toughnesses changing over time but never hitting 0 < 1520090861 798065 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could certainly work for the factoring problem where we have a strict easy to compute upper limit on the runtime < 1520090869 716563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel < 1520090935 193885 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice to golf this down a bit < 1520090976 865692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, we need research//development, too < 1520090985 154600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Harmless Offering, Artificial Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Research//Development < 1520091172 93482 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 cards :-( < 1520091905 298459 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity Mastermind's Aquisition costs double-black, if not for that it might have been viable in the maindeck < 1520091913 480638 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could still use it as an R//D replacement < 1520092592 45613 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Fractured Identity < 1520092592 741437 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fractured Identity \ 3WU \ Sorcery \ Exile target nonland permanent. Each player other than its controller creates a token that's a copy of it. \ C17-R < 1520092630 808926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :close to merging two of our slots but doesn't quite get there because we can't get the Lynx back out of exile < 1520092632 439326 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, hmm < 1520092720 997741 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name coax from the blind eternities < 1520092722 119265 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coax from the Blind Eternities \ 2U \ Sorcery \ You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. \ EMN-R < 1520092727 394031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we use that rather than R//D? < 1520092744 364162 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you artificially evolve "Eldrazi" to match a creature type of the creature that got exiled) < 1520092856 913761 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that we use Cunning and Burning wishes that we naturally have in our deck to fetch Coax, Fractured, and Artificial < 1520092864 899714 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Blades of Velis Vel < 1520092865 660385 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blades of Velis Vel \ 1R \ Tribal Instant -- Shapeshifter \ Changeling (This card is every creature type.) \ Up to two target creatures each get +2/+0 and gain all creature types until end of turn. \ LRW-C, MM2-C < 1520092875 465091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blades of Velis Vel is naturally an Eldrazi, so we can get that too < 1520092879 868494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :using Coax < 1520092929 465900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we use the standard double-Emrakul trick to keep recycling Coax and Artifical in order to get all the creatures out of our sideboard < 1520092931 57449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that works < 1520092968 912331 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520092972 505470 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :down to 9 cards < 1520093123 840293 :HereToAnnoy!4a7b172b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.123.23.43 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520093225 690647 :HereToAnnoy!4a7b172b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.123.23.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, I guess < 1520093232 449808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1520093290 791706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now we're busy trying to prove Magic: the Gathering to be Turing complete even with no decisions made by the players (once a crafted gamestate is set up) < 1520093326 193242 :HereToAnnoy!4a7b172b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.123.23.43 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha < 1520093446 433647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, rather, we've already pretty much proved it but we're trying to golf down the construction so that we can fit it in the sideboard of a tournament-viable deck < 1520093495 30665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :‎<‎ais523‎>‎ Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Blades of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520093502 398255 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :current record is 9 cards, it seems likely we can do better though < 1520093531 393458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this also makes certain assumptions about the rest of the deck; we're working from this Omnitell list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=113604) < 1520093756 208186 :Cale_!~cale@static-108-30-103-216.nycmny.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520094286 507546 :HereToAnnoy!4a7b172b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.123.23.43 PART :#esoteric < 1520094818 214623 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1520094843 630495 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520095030 352884 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fractured Identity? does that mean you have to play Elesh last? < 1520095040 191990 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, that you don't use Harmless Offering now? < 1520096461 351180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the idea was to save a card < 1520096492 258479 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would indeed need to play Elesh pretty late, but you'd have to do that anyway < 1520096510 290110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that Fractured Identity can combine the token-making and donating parts of the setup < 1520096539 453232 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that has the downside that the card gets exiled, so we have to change the "get cards out of our sideboard" part of the setup to compensate < 1520096849 204444 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1520096961 264622 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:f9a9:7c20:2bfe:901a JOIN :#esoteric < 1520097115 949100 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4558:ab6b:800a:3b56:da22:51af JOIN :#esoteric < 1520097799 751364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, hmm, there's a mistake in the construction: Blade of Velis Vel can't legally target Hungry Lynx no matter how much you adjust the creature types < 1520097855 964071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes it even more important to try to save that slot < 1520098032 540653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<706.2> Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied. < 1520098039 228328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can't just switch to Shields of Veils Vel either < 1520098202 485718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Master Biomancer works but it'd be awkward < 1520098226 838627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you hack it to say Zombie rather than Mutant while you're deploying the cats, then bounce it before you deploy the tokens) < 1520098308 271770 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1520098337 564395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's the only option though < 1520098752 148120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Master Biomancer < 1520098753 365661 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Master Biomancer \ 2GU \ Creature -- Elf Wizard \ 2/4 \ Each other creature you control enters the battlefield with a number of additional +1/+1 counters on it equal to Master Biomancer's power and as a Mutant in addition to its other types. \ GTC-M, C16-M < 1520099101 982740 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520099260 530782 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1520099420 395985 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why can't Shields of Velis Vel work? < 1520099432 435458 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do the construction in the right order? < 1520099478 56451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name shields of velis vel < 1520099480 226158 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shields of Velis Vel \ W \ Tribal Instant -- Shapeshifter \ Changeling (This card is every creature type.) \ Creatures target player controls get +0/+1 and gain all creature types until end of turn. \ LRW-C < 1520099487 273827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you can aim it at your opponent < 1520099494 913722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason I assumed it'd only affect you < 1520099497 536025 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :use, that works then < 1520099500 226045 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes, < 1520099527 121138 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we sent the ROM over first, then Shields it, then send over the RAM < 1520099556 113718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :later on we can Shields ourself to prevent our Rotlung dying to the enemy Elesh Norn < 1520099581 825883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the /+1 also keeps the enemy ROM and RAM alive while we temporarily cast Elesh so that we can copy her) < 1520099657 447919 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 cards:‎ Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Artificial Evolution, Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520099680 205939 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, let me order that by card type < 1520099711 957959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 cards:‎ CREATURE: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, Shields of Velis Vel, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520099720 665913 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's relevant in how we get them out of the sideboard < 1520099722 241167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1520099725 389816 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520099738 759317 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 cards:‎ CREATURE/TRIBAL: Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator, Noxious Ghoul, (Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite), Wild Cantor, Shields of Velis Vel, INSTANT: Artificial Evolution, SORCERY: Fractured Identity, Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520099753 884147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we're getting out Shields based on its tribal type < 1520099808 686254 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is mostly creatures/tribals which is great, as it means we can use the existing Burning Wishes for the sorceries and existing Cunning wish for the instant and are unlikely to have run out < 1520099821 413492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the wishes self-exile, so we can't loop them; Coax doesn't, so we canA) < 1520099823 76967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can < 1520099971 406679 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't you still need Wipe Away? < 1520100002 401678 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe something more for either the recycling or the cleanup after the setup? I don't think I understand how that works < 1520100039 100749 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Coax from the Blind Eternities < 1520100039 809749 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coax from the Blind Eternities \ 2U \ Sorcery \ You may choose an Eldrazi card you own from outside the game or in exile, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. \ EMN-R < 1520100118 260980 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do you create the ram in first place? < 1520100133 664896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, we wish for Wipe Away < 1520100192 28120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create the RAM we start by creating the Cleric tokens on our side of the field (via, e.g. Rotlung Reanimator set to Shaman and sacrificing a Cantor), then Fracturing them onto the other side of the battlefield < 1520100231 536714 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after you send the tokens through, you evolve them to the right type? could work < 1520100234 569890 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1520100252 259663 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then to set the values away from all-2s we use a spare creature type and have a stack of Lynxes set to that type < 1520100262 154055 :aloril!~aloril@80.246.146.6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1520100276 947959 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sacrifice an evolved Cantor on our side and the Lynxes will place a precise amount of +1/+1 counters on everything based on their type < 1520100286 731529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we never use the type again < 1520100317 346187 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the Cantor, can't you use something that serves another function too though? < 1520100328 461274 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that sacrifices for some other useful effect < 1520100449 346433 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does serve a useful function, it lets us start the combo with Wipe Away still on the stack < 1520100462 8540 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520100467 730238 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it obvious that neither side can interfere < 1520100469 46693 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you want split second tricks < 1520100506 271182 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520100649 667271 :aloril!~aloril@80.246.146.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520100706 435642 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you use Starlit Sanctum's second ability to start the combo, you control it and you don't control any changelings, make sure you sacrifice the last creature of the creature type you want, and as a bonus you can use Starlit Sanctum to adjust life totals somewhat for the finisher? < 1520100722 469699 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name starlit sanctum < 1520100724 173459 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starlit Sanctum \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {W}, {T}, Sacrifice a Cleric creature: You gain life equal to the sacrificed creature's toughness. \ {B}, {T}, Sacrifice a Cleric creature: Target player loses life equal to the sacrificed creature's power. \ ONS-U < 1520100743 495280 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't a mana ability < 1520100748 42092 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one is < 1520100750 905386 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the third one isn't < 1520100758 225821 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't < 1520100763 769958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you gain life" doesn't generate mana < 1520100766 43971 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1520100767 482201 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stupid < 1520100773 188417 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1520100779 322293 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so Wild Cantor < 1520100804 818473 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, creatures are the easiest card type to get out of our sideboard < 1520100815 718240 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... let me check all the cards that generate Gold or Eldrazi Spawn tokens < 1520100831 672178 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? aren't you still using < 1520100836 5053 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Development < 1520100837 789598 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Development \ 3UR \ Instant \ Create a 3/1 red Elemental creature token unless any opponent has you draw a card. Repeat this process two more times. \ [This is half of the split card Research // Development.] \ DIS-R < 1520100840 794034 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Research < 1520100841 534402 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Research \ GU \ Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. \ [This is half of the split card Research // Development.] \ DIS-R \ \ Research // Development \ GU // 3UR \ Instant // Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. // Create a < 1520100859 762590 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, you also use that eldrazi stuff < 1520100917 345758 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, we needed to get creatures back from exile too once we started using Fractured Identity < 1520100936 799572 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Coax gets creatures from both exile and sideboard (the creature type restriction isn't relevant because we need Artificial anyway) < 1520100952 436206 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Essence Feed < 1520100953 166723 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Essence Feed \ 5B \ Sorcery \ Target player loses 3 life. You gain 3 life and create three 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature tokens. They have "Sacrifice this creature: Add {C} to your mana pool." \ ROE-C < 1520100963 260023 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you don't want to drain the opponent to zero, so that's not what we want < 1520100969 664959 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the exit condition now? < 1520101031 51786 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :attack with Emrakul (naturally in the deck), in response to the annihilator trigger cast Wipe Away targeting Wild Cantor, then sacrifice Wild Cantor to generate mana < 1520101045 513701 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the combo collapses then the opponent will be facing down Emrakul and have nothing to block it with < 1520101095 266523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get rid of our own Omniscience before this (after having made just enough mana to finish the combo by looping Cantor) so that we don't have any ability to stop our own win < 1520101114 635078 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if he has enough life for Emrakul? < 1520101122 628498 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to survive Emrakul's attack that is < 1520101128 281521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was envisioning using multiple attacks while the board was empty < 1520101162 429313 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't make copies of Emrakul < 1520101216 697259 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple attacks... maybe < 1520101228 55584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :over multiple turns < 1520101230 966248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have infinite turns anyway < 1520101235 936880 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could just attack with more spare creatures than the opponent have lynxes < 1520101242 139762 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :small ones < 1520101257 490462 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could also pile +1/+1 counters on Emrakul < 1520101257 584033 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, infinite turns too? < 1520101264 411973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: cast trigger on Emrakul < 1520101271 438248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're hardcasting it as part of the recycle loop < 1520101275 419832 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is why it costs 27 mana) < 1520101280 362559 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520101280 379438 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520101302 94417 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, the loop is cast Emrakul, it dies to legend rule, shuffle your library; cast Enter the Infinite, get your library back to hand < 1520101319 115907 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :end result is graveyard → hand, and it's free if Omniscience is in play, and it's entirely based on cards that are in Omnitell naturally < 1520101328 422379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need the other copy of Emrakul on the battlefield for this to work < 1520101333 522768 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see! < 1520101344 849812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: if it got exiled somehow, you can get it back with Coax before starting the combo) < 1520101379 22381 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's much better than a Dark Confidant combo < 1520101398 269621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :playing Dark Confidant and Emrakul in the same deck is inadvisable anyway ;-) < 1520101423 640498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shuffle your graveyard into your library < 1520101437 302546 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but... < 1520101451 280493 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1520101500 596798 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, Omniscience is from M2013? what did people use before that came out? < 1520101521 961778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what purpose? < 1520101527 932723 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omnitell didn't exist as a deck at the time < 1520101559 180910 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I just thought either it was older, or there's some very similar older card < 1520101559 433550 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:f9a9:7c20:2bfe:901a QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1520101568 691814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Genesis Wave < 1520101569 516461 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Genesis Wave \ XGGG \ Sorcery \ Reveal the top X cards of your library. You may put any number of permanent cards with converted mana cost X or less from among them onto the battlefield. Then put all cards revealed this way that weren't put onto the battlefield into your graveyard. \ SOM-R < 1520101579 295559 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was used for this sort of stupid combo, sometimes < 1520101581 875937 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because I don't usually know about rares from sets newer than M2010 < 1520101630 353350 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, people have invented a hundred different infinite mana combos, and some of them give any color, and some of them replace Omniscience just fine < 1520101670 889088 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, and there was another symmetric one < 1520101687 489865 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which put cards into play from your hand and from your opponent's hand too < 1520101757 711211 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Hypergenesis < 1520101758 456129 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypergenesis \ Sorcery \ Suspend 3--{1}{G}{G} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, pay {1}{G}{G} and exile it with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.) \ Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or < 1520101767 447977 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one < 1520101780 832489 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not useful here, just that's what Genesis Wave reminds me < 1520101821 699780 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Eureka < 1520101822 932432 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eureka \ 2GG \ Sorcery \ Starting with you, each player may put a permanent card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield. \ LE-R, VMA-M, MED-R < 1520101838 990283 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the original version Hypergenesis is nerfing < 1520101894 413490 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Show and Tell < 1520101895 43934 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Show and Tell \ 2U \ Sorcery \ Each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ US-R, CN2-M < 1520101905 605865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually in Omnitell, it's how it affords to play Omniscience < 1520101913 311773 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1520101918 514388 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it can also just put Emrakul in directly if it has no better option, which is risky because the opponent can often remove it) < 1520102091 125935 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1520103818 909042 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54274&oldid=42023 5* 03B jonas 5* (+12734) 10 > 1520103821 268188 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54275&oldid=54273 5* 03B jonas 5* (-12176) 10 > 1520103907 506380 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54276&oldid=54274 5* 03B jonas 5* (+146) 10 > 1520103910 70727 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07StackFlow14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54277&oldid=54275 5* 03B jonas 5* (-164) 10 < 1520103934 361542 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1520104551 372921 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1520104987 626315 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:7907:2fd9:3d03:70d1 JOIN :#esoteric > 1520107891 609375 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RTFM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54278 5* 03TeslaX93 5* (+1643) 10first version > 1520107933 138688 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07F^314]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54279 5* 03TeslaX93 5* (+18) 10redirect < 1520109375 233824 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1520110868 461935 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1520111333 969736 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see if there is a mistake in ZPXDB? < 1520111362 265880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure how I should test it properly, but maybe you know, and then you can tell me how. < 1520111468 630447 :wob_jonas!b03f18b8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.184 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1520112026 870484 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:7907:2fd9:3d03:70d1 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1520112061 961554 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4558:ab6b:800a:3b56:da22:51af QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1520112390 418191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520113670 101169 :augur!~augur@2600:380:4577:6aa:50ca:4b5e:8685:199f JOIN :#esoteric < 1520114045 447970 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit > 1520115136 21355 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54280&oldid=54259 5* 03TeslaX93 5* (+35) 10added RTFM and F3 < 1520115373 303231 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 JOIN :#esoteric < 1520115475 802215 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: One more important question about the M:tG construction is this. If you don't insist on tournament viability, how can you modify the construction such that the abstract machine can safely query inputs from either player at its choice, in order that we can simulate an M:tG game or any other game. < 1520115820 673963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're making an alternating TM? < 1520115836 597963 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? atm < 1520115838 55597 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will duplicate your relevant info. < 1520115847 769933 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm < 1520115915 894483 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I guess that's better than "An ATM is an alternating Turing machine. It alternates between dispensing and not dispensing money." (but here's the idea for the record) < 1520116019 42696 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't know what an alternating Turing machine is < 1520116100 745050 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah. yes, something like that. < 1520116134 485514 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you might not find the true value it computes, because you and the opponent need not play optimally. < 1520116177 501886 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alternating" generalizes "non-deterministic"; when you get to make a choice in a non-deterministic TM, it will accept if any of the choices leads to an accepting state; in an ATM, for some of the non-deterministic choices, *all* of the paths need to lead to acceptance, while for others, like in NTMs, it suffices for one of the choices to lead to accepting paths (this gives rise to an arbitrary... < 1520116183 942993 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...alternation of finite existential and universal quantifiers) < 1520116207 88110 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that in turn has game semantics, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrenfeucht%E2%80%93Fra%C3%AFss%C3%A9_game ... closing the circle. < 1520116244 224027 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus I guess you might want to add a random source too. < 1520116268 646080 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there's nothing probabilistic about ATMs. < 1520116397 738489 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1520116430 881896 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily M:tG has tons of cards that offers a choice to the controller, and a large enough selection of cards that offer a choice to the opponent or make a choice at random, so it is probably possible to add all that. < 1520116449 795520 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that might not be enough though < 1520116492 470359 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might also want a way for some of the state of the program to be hidden from the players, and that might be very hard if you want it working strictly, < 1520116525 167455 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's almost no way in M:tG to store more hidden state than what the permutation of the physical cards can store. < 1520116569 614477 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily, state hidden from both players isn't a big problem, you can just approximate that with randomness and lots of computation. State hidden from just one player can be a problem. < 1520116577 307139 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that might be hard to simulate too. < 1520116966 997414 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( morphs ) < 1520117034 784096 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you can only havea bounded number of those, I guess, and even if you *can* operate on such hidden information, that act would reveal it) < 1520117039 893752 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could use cryptography to simulate the hidden information < 1520117062 960453 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would only work if you forced the opponent to do expensive cryptographic operations in his head < 1520117093 530467 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :him or a judge < 1520117141 730370 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably easier to just simulate a perfect information game, like chess or go < 1520117218 450222 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or backgammon, if you want to use the probabilistic feature < 1520117294 268231 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The advantage is that there are already nice small implementations of chess for multiple real computers, so you only need to simulate most of a 6502 plus RAM plus some IO devices and then run an existing chess program < 1520117376 773698 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah. and if you can't easily store arbitrary hidden information, that means not only you can't simulate M:tG, you also can't simulate Scrabble or Starcraft. < 1520117390 674557 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which lead me to https://gilkalai.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/is-backgammon-in-p/ (still reading, but at least some people are interested :) ) < 1520117533 201383 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you could simulate a single-player game with hidden information and randomness, if you don't mind a few more levels of exponential slowdown (since we're using a counter machine, you already have at least one level of exponential slowdown) < 1520117541 184004 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :homomorphic encryption is a relevant keyword < 1520117555 914508 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you want to simulate hidden information through crypto) < 1520117658 300795 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you could technically do that, but I don't think you need that. Much less power is enough to just simulate M:tG, although you might need homomorphic encryption to faithfully simulate Starcraft or a Counterstrike deathmatch. < 1520117701 156144 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which still isn't practical, I guess. "In late 2014, a re-implementation of homomorphic evaluation of the AES-encryption circuit using HElib, reported evaluation time of just over four minutes on 120 inputs, bringing the amortized per-input time to about 2 seconds." [wikipedia] < 1520117701 545076 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And again, the problem would be that the opponent would need to compute difficult crypto computations in his head to keep hidden information, or at least ask a judge to do it for him. < 1520117735 498386 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'd be hard to convince a non-accomplice to do that. < 1520117743 594093 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1520117768 660536 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although... wait < 1520117904 725032 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're already using a construction that has at least one level of exponential slowdown. You obviously shortcut most of that. So you could just say that the opponent only needs to encrypt each of his decisions (with random salt), the simulated machine decrypts it (in double or triple exponential time, who cares), and since you're shortcutting every < 1520117904 894874 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing, you can just shortcut all the crypto part too by just playing the simulated game and keeping hidden info with pieces of paper facing down and similar traditional methods. < 1520117981 888701 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind you, it might be possible to make an improved reduction to M:tG that has only polynomial slowdown, in particular a fixed simulation of StackFlow could probably do that. < 1520118005 694501 :wob_jonas!b03f18e7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.231 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(StackFlow with a bounded number of stacks and states etc.) < 1520118204 39913 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1520118670 629548 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1520120037 137062 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds