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00:45:54 <HackEgo> 1/2:706) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context \ 1237) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory? \ 138) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version \ 147) <ais523> syntax is the leas
00:45:59 <HackEgo> 2/2:t important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python \ 372) <oklopol> such a famous bisexual <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, like Marlon Brando. <Phantom_Hoover> And Caligula. <Phantom_Hoover> And... Keeley Hawes? <Phantom_Hoover> I feel cheated by Ashes to Ashes now.
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03:02:01 <oerjan> hmph both int-e and boily gone
03:02:16 * oerjan has a theory about the mirrors in girl genius
03:06:27 <oerjan> i suspect lucrezia discovered them when she and the heterodyne boys visited Skifander, and used them to become the Other.
03:09:16 <oerjan> by taking over the geisterdamen world by posing as their eternal queen. several options for what happened with the original queen, though. especially if time travel is strongly involved (the grey witch might be that queen, or even lucrezia.)
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03:19:51 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/edit/
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03:22:43 <oerjan> `fetch tmp/hello https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hello
03:23:09 <HackEgo> 2018-03-02 03:23:03 URL:https://hackego.esolangs.org/get/tmp/hello [291/291] -> "tmp/hello" [1]
03:24:13 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 `cat tmp/hello`"
03:24:32 <oerjan> it seems a bit slow...
03:25:19 <oerjan> hm obviously it would be extremely slow.
03:27:22 <oerjan> hm was instantaneous in terminal.
03:27:42 <oerjan> `! bf32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
03:28:12 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 `fmt -w 1000 tmp/hello`"
03:28:27 <oerjan> `` fmt -w 1000 tmp/hello
03:28:28 <HackEgo> ->-----------[<->-]< [ \ > ->-----------[<->-] >->--------[<->-] >->-----[<->-] <<<< <<- \ ] >>> ->---[<->-]<. << ->--[<->-]<. ->--------[<->-]<.. ->----[<->-]<. >>>> ->-----[<->-]<. ------------. <<<< ->---------[<->-]<. --------. ->----[<->-]<. ------. --------. >>>> ->--[<->-]<.
03:28:57 <oerjan> why is there a \ in there
03:30:17 <oerjan> `` \! "bf32 $(echo $(cat tmp/hello))"
03:30:56 <oerjan> `` \! "bf64 $(echo $(cat tmp/hello))"
03:30:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/bf64: not found
03:31:36 * oerjan runs that in terminal too
03:38:44 * oerjan ate a piece of chocolate that had been in the fridge too long
03:39:03 <oerjan> hopefully it's nothing serious.
03:39:18 <oerjan> . o O ( famous last words )
03:42:58 <oerjan> `le/rn underload//((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'underload': ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:17 <oerjan> ^ul ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:43:17 <fungot> ((HELP I AM TRAPPED IN AN UNDERLOAD QUINE COMMENT!)!:a(:^)*S):^
03:45:06 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colourful programming language.
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04:04:26 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523_> it sounds like the sort of idea that'd likely have been done already, but maybe not? <-- fizzie thought about a befunge JIT but i don't think he finished it
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05:23:18 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54262&oldid=54258 * Enoua5 * (-7848) remove duplicate entries from table
05:35:24 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54263&oldid=54262 * Enoua5 * (+994) Add section Future
05:43:49 <esowiki> [[IOTA-C0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54264&oldid=54263 * Enoua5 * (+0) Wrong line.
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06:26:48 <HackEgo> 11435:2018-03-01 <wob_jonäs> `` rm -v bin/en2sv \ 5971:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` -e bin/en2sv || >bin/en2sv echo $\'#!/usr/bin/perl\\n\'\'use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\\xc4\\xc5\\xe4\\xe5/; print }\'; chmod a+x bin/en2sv \ 5970:2015-09-10 <b_jonäs> ` -e bin/en2sv
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08:05:08 <int-e> oerjan: english to swedish? it replaces each E/O/e/o by Ä/Å/ä/å with 60% probability.
08:07:51 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv. Hen gillar inte färger, men han gillar dissonans. Er hat ein Hipster-Spiel gekauft.
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08:09:05 <oerjan> int-e: also, see my girl genius theory above (posted before today's update)
08:15:07 <int-e> heh "your young baron"
08:16:20 <int-e> oerjan: how dare you complain about my absence at 4am
08:18:52 <int-e> but hmm, peeping into the infinite...
08:22:48 <int-e> (Can google find the previous occurrence (if any) of panel 6 for me? :P)
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08:28:51 <oerjan> int-e: there isn't a precise match but the sequence starts at http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100416
08:29:43 <oerjan> int-e: i was more complaining about boily leaving seconds before
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08:35:30 <int-e> I see that explosions came up then as well
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12:13:47 <wob_jonas> oerjan, int-e: yes, that was from back when I added bin/wälcåmä
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14:30:38 <ais523> was checking whether my Enter key was working
14:30:45 <ais523> turns out it does in Konversation but not info for some reason
14:30:53 <ais523> (note: specifically Enter, not Return)
14:31:37 <ais523> seems to be numlock-dependent, even odder
14:31:39 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the provider is at it again
14:32:18 <HackEgo> Cliegg Lars \ BB-9E \ Cassian Andor \ Admiral Firmus Piett \ Watto \ Lando Calrissian \ Jan Dodonna \ Nien Nunb \ the Sarlacc
14:32:45 <wob_jonas> `ping are you woken up now, HackEgo?
14:32:54 <wob_jonas> it took him a minute to spin the disks up
14:33:36 <HackEgo> ishir pocry plected urvier otreestal wrap timat sewah mutana eloir mar gand limal leagemmerconfi plation vited tsovet ncnto konnt stula
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15:44:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Singingbanana * uploaded "[[File:Flow Down Arithmetic Picture.png]]"
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18:37:00 * FireFly . o O ( a .f to .c compiler )
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18:54:46 <int-e> FireFly: that's not a joke, is it.
18:55:06 <int-e> (the spelling is a bit off, that's all)
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19:09:35 <zzo38> I have figured out some more details about Hero Mesh file format now.
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19:46:11 <zzo38> I should need to include the Windows "System" font in Free Hero Mesh, since some puzzle sets arrange the text in a fancy way, and so, it is necessary to have the correct font metrics in order to emulate that.
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19:57:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: or at least include its font metrics including kerning table for the sizes used, but not the bitmap appearances of the glyphs themselves
19:59:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: there is at least one sets of fonts that deliberately reproduces the font metrics of the MS fonts Times New Roman and Arial to allow for laying out some MS word documents exactly the same as the MS software does while claiming to be free software per the debian definition
19:59:33 <zzo38> Yes, at least the metrics are needed (only one size is used); even if the glyphs aren't included, it will still work, that is correct. As far as I know it doesn't have kerning but I don't know, maybe it does include kerning.
20:02:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but I don't know how much that is necessary, as opposed to just adding special knowledge about all the puzzles that do arrange text in a way that matters
20:02:41 <zzo38> Is there a free bitmap font with the correct metrics?
20:04:02 <zzo38> wob_jonas: The puzzles will still work without the correct font metrics; the arrangement of the text will just look wrong, but will still be readable. Just some level titles will look bad if the metrics are wrong.
20:05:01 <wob_jonas> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fonts-liberation2 says "the same metrics as the (non-free) Microsoft Times, Arial and Courier fonts, which implies those fonts can serve as a drop-in replacement", but mind you, they are bad fonts, I recommend against them unless you really really need both the font metrics and the strict debian definition of fre
20:05:18 <wob_jonas> it doesn't include the System font
20:05:50 <wob_jonas> consider though that if you're not debian, then the MS fonts actually have a reasonable license that allows you to use them in most situations
20:06:01 <wob_jonas> so consider using the actual original bitmap fonts
20:11:35 <wob_jonas> Also, the MS fonts are actually good looking professional ones (notwithstanding the ugly "A" in one size of System), and most of the replacements are half-assed bad quality ones.
20:12:49 <wob_jonas> This applies both to the old ones (Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New) and the newer ones (Cambria, Calibri, Consolas)
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20:27:24 <zzo38> As I said, I can do without the font, but would like to add that one size of the System bitmap font anyways. I do need a bitmap font though; a vector font won't do.
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20:29:44 <zzo38> But I think I have read somewhere that bitmap fonts are not copyright?
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21:17:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: zzo38: in the US, bitmap fonts are not copyrightable, so long as you copy the bitmap itself (rather than the font file)
21:17:29 <ais523> this may not be true in other countries
21:18:03 <\oren\_> ais523: what would the "bitmap" be, if not the font file?
21:18:24 <ais523> \oren\_: an image consisting of every character in the font
21:18:56 <ais523> actually you can legally do that with other sorts of font too, it's just not normally enough information to recreate the original font
21:21:11 <ais523> this is basically because you can't copyright a typeface, but you can copyright an implementation of a typeface…
21:22:19 <zzo38> Anyways I only need the metrics, and it would help to have the bitmaps too, but the original font file is not needed.
21:23:06 <zzo38> Although different glyphs could still work, if they are still bitmaps, and the metrics are correct.
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21:38:39 <esowiki> [[Wierd Machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54266 * Singingbanana * (+712) Created page with "The '''''Wierd Machine''' is a theoretical computer science construct of a 2-cell machine which can implement the cat utility, can(theoretically) implement the Truth-Machine..."
21:40:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Incident claims that Incident wasn't proven to be Turing-complete. But haven't you actually proved that with oerjan's help? If not, which part of the proof is missing?
21:40:40 <ais523> I think every bit's been proven at least informally, now
21:40:56 <ais523> I'm not sure there's any actual compiler or other rigorously specified way of showing it works
21:41:19 <ais523> so it's a bit less proven than Three Star Programmer (which is a bit less proven than, say, brainfuck)
21:41:56 <wob_jonas> how does that compare to M:tG without assuming anything about player's behavior except that they don't resign?
21:43:04 <ais523> that has a proof but it doesn't quite work
21:43:23 <ais523> The Waterfall Model was an attempt to fix it, incidentally; I have an M:tG implementation of that with five waterclocks
21:43:30 <ais523> but that possibly isn't enough for TCness
21:43:47 <ais523> TWM is obviously TC but it's really hard to golf, or at least I haven't figured out how yet
21:44:36 <wob_jonas> do you have a link for the M:tG implementation of Waterfall with five clocks?
21:45:04 <ais523> I don't, so far it's only in my head
21:45:23 <zzo38> Why do you call it Waterfall Model instead of Waterclocks Model?
21:45:31 <ais523> but the basic idea is to use three Faceless Devourers controlled by one player to give infinite, unstoppable ETB triggers
21:45:49 <ais523> zzo38: it's a famous, and somewhat discredited, software engineering technique
21:46:04 <ais523> so I decided to reuse the name
21:46:43 <wob_jonas> hah! Faveless Devourers. Using that card is a sure sign of an old M:tG player
21:46:48 <ais523> b_jonas: when they ETB every creature gets -1/-1 (there's a card that outright has that effect)
21:46:55 <ais523> also, this is the Future Sight version
21:47:00 <ais523> `card-by-name Faceless Devourer
21:47:03 <HackEgo> Faceless Devourer \ 2B \ Creature -- Nightmare Horror \ 2/1 \ Shadow (This creature can block or be blocked by only creatures with shadow.) \ When Faceless Devourer enters the battlefield, exile another target creature with shadow. \ When Faceless Devourer leaves the battlefield, return the exiled card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
21:47:07 <ais523> err, or Time Spiral block at least
21:47:22 <ais523> the point is that because they have such a narrow targeting restriction they can't be targeted at anything other thana each ot her
21:47:32 <zzo38> You should fix it to omit reminder text like the other IRC does.
21:47:49 <ais523> that provides the steady decrease
21:48:30 <ais523> then for the zeroing triggers, we have a "when a creature of this type dies, recreate it" effect via hacking the same cleric creature Alex Churchill uses so that the two types are the same
21:48:33 <ais523> I forget what it's called
21:49:03 <ais523> and when the new one ETBs it puts a whole load of +1/+1 counters everywhere using Baru, Fist of Krosa
21:49:09 <ais523> `card-by-name Baru, Fist of Krosa
21:49:10 <HackEgo> Baru, Fist of Krosa \ 3GG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Druid \ 4/4 \ Whenever a Forest enters the battlefield, green creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain trample until end of turn. \ Grandeur -- Discard another card named Baru, Fist of Krosa: Create an X/X green Wurm creature token, where X is the number of lands you control. \ FUT-R
21:49:36 <ais523> you can change "forest" and "green" individually in order to control both the key and value of the zeroing triggers
21:49:42 <ais523> key = forest, value = green
21:49:47 <ais523> and use duplicates to change how many counters are added
21:49:55 <ais523> (you also need Mirror Gallery but that's not really a problem)
21:50:14 <ais523> (and Life and Limb in order to make your creatures have basic land types)
21:50:28 <ais523> but there are only five colors and only five basic land types, which limits you to five waterclocks with this construction
21:51:04 <HackEgo> Rotlung Reanimator \ 2B \ Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 2/2 \ Whenever Rotlung Reanimator or another Cleric dies, create a 2/2 black Zombie creature token. \ ONS-R
21:51:08 <ais523> (also, the "when a creature dies, recreate it" trigger needs to be controlled by the player who doesn't control the faceless devourers, so that the triggers stack in the right order)
21:51:16 <ais523> you hack it so that both creature tyeps are the same
21:52:38 <ais523> anyway, this is a really simple construction, but it's a pity that five counters may not be enough for TCness
21:52:55 <HackEgo> Noxious Ghoul \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie \ 3/3 \ Whenever Noxious Ghoul or another Zombie enters the battlefield, all non-Zombie creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn. \ LGN-U, HOP-U
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21:54:06 <ais523> yes. it's the right one
21:55:10 <ais523> the nice thing about the "non-Zombie" (i.e. non-Horror after hacking) is that you can just give Horror as a creature type to the ROM creatures to preent them being affected
21:55:27 <ais523> infinitely many -1/-1s is pretty hard to resist, I'm not sure it's even possible
21:56:05 <HackEgo> Indestructibility \ 3W \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant permanent \ Enchanted permanent has indestructible. (Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy that permanent. A creature with indestructible can't be destroyed by damage.) \ M10-R, M14-R
21:56:32 <ais523> indestructibility doesn't protect you from toughness 0
21:56:53 <zzo38> If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it dies as a state-based action, but the state-based action doesn't destroy it.
21:57:25 <zzo38> If a creature has enough damage marked on it equal to or more than toughness, than a state-based action does destroy it, so anything that prevents destruction will prevent it.
22:04:32 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the Noxious Ghoul / Archangel of Thune / Conspiracy combo would work
22:10:19 <wob_jonas> I wonder how the limitation of five basic land types can be circumvented here by some strange card that cares about two different creature types in just the right way.
22:10:33 <ais523> err, I was thinking of Dralnu's Crusade, not Conspiracy
22:10:33 <wob_jonas> Boldwyr Intimidator probably doesn't help
22:10:38 <ais523> `card-by-name Dralnu's Crusade
22:10:39 <HackEgo> Dralnu's Crusade \ 1BR \ Enchantment \ Goblin creatures get +1/+1. \ All Goblins are black and are Zombies in addition to their other creature types. \ PS-R
22:10:53 <ais523> it's one of the few cards that mentions two different creature types in an exploitable way
22:11:10 <wob_jonas> let me look what lorwyn has, it has some interactions between the three minor and five major creature types I think
22:11:21 <ais523> but it doesn't work as stated as you can't control the order of the minus from Noxious Ghoul and + from Archangel of Thune
22:11:58 <wob_jonas> Are we allowed to have more than two players for this?
22:13:11 <ais523> I'd prefer to do it with two if possible
22:13:34 <ais523> the ideal is to do it with 15 or fewer cards so that you can fit the whole thing into a sideboard and use it as a finisher for the wish variant of Omnitell
22:13:41 <ais523> that way you could plausibly make it happen in an actual tournament
22:14:34 <ais523> a Legacy deck, it's a fairly resilient combo deck
22:14:47 <wob_jonas> besides the obvious objection that the tournament rules would ban this, it doesn't seem very likely to me that you could do this in 15 cards
22:14:49 <ais523> the end state of the combo gives you the ability to cast any spell in your deck for free
22:15:21 <wob_jonas> ah, so the combo already helps you somewhat, by giving you Omniscience?
22:15:26 <ais523> normally people use Release the Ants as the finisher, as it's just one card, but you typically get it from your sideboard using Wishes
22:15:39 <ais523> `card-by-name Release the Ants
22:15:40 <HackEgo> Release the Ants \ 1R \ Instant \ Release the Ants deals 1 damage to target creature or player. Clash with an opponent. If you win, return Release the Ants to its owner's hand. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost
22:16:06 <wob_jonas> hehe, I wouldn't have thought of that one
22:17:21 <ais523> after all, getting it via Cunning Wish is just as good as having it directly in your deck once all spells cost 0
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22:17:31 <ais523> and Cunning Wish is more useful if you draw it naturally
22:18:20 <ais523> anyway, the idea would be to get an infinite recycling card (e.g. Wheel of Sun and Moon) and Research // Development
22:18:33 <ais523> that lets you shuffle your sideboard into your library
22:19:09 <ais523> hmm, you'd also need Divination or the like in order to avoid your library accumulating cards
22:19:16 <ais523> but all that shouldn't make the deck /much/ weaker
22:19:23 <ais523> and now you can do anything, like set up a Turing machine
22:20:08 <ais523> the point is that your maindeck hardly needs changing, and it's a maindeck that can win games
22:21:30 <wob_jonas> how easy it is to make a mandatory infinite loop with a cooperating opponent where the iteration contains turn boundaries? Panoptic Mirror helps a lot, I think
22:21:52 <wob_jonas> by cooperating opponent, I mean cooperating before the start of the loop
22:21:57 <wob_jonas> so after that it still has to be mandatory
22:22:40 <wob_jonas> the opponent could play four Elixir of Immortality and 56 Plains to lock him down
22:23:55 <HackEgo> Eon Hub \ 5 \ Artifact \ Players skip their upkeep steps. \ 5DN-R
22:23:59 <ais523> `card-by-name Colfenor's Plans
22:24:02 <HackEgo> Colfenor's Plans \ 2BB \ Enchantment \ When Colfenor's Plans enters the battlefield, exile the top seven cards of your library face down. \ You may look at and play cards exiled with Colfenor's Plans. \ Skip your draw step. \ You can't cast more than one spell each turn. \ LRW-R
22:24:08 <HackEgo> Stasis \ 1U \ Enchantment \ Players skip their untap steps. \ At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Stasis unless you pay {U}. \ A-R, B-R, U-R, RV-R, 4E-R, 5E-R, ME4-R \ \ Stasis Cell \ 4U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature doesn't untap during its controller's untap step. \ {3}{U}: Attach Stasis Cell to target crea
22:24:24 <ais523> AFAICT, that combo means that players are skipping all of untap, upkeep, and draw
22:24:39 <wob_jonas> I was wondering how you'd prevent decking
22:24:45 <ais523> so it's trivial to arrang a situation in which nobody can do anything
22:24:49 <ais523> and there's no natural way to draw out of it
22:25:04 <ais523> Colfenor's Plans could potentially be enough by itself if there's nothing else on board
22:25:28 <ais523> (although both players would need one)
22:25:29 <wob_jonas> Psychic Spiral on a Panoptic Mirror would stop you from decking, but it has an unfortunate side effect
22:25:47 <ais523> there are plenty of anti-decking cards
22:25:58 <wob_jonas> yes, but most of them aren't mandatory
22:26:06 <ais523> for example, 4 Emrakuls and 4 Ulamogs without any way to cast them
22:26:22 <ais523> if you ever get all 8 in hand, you have to discard one during cleanup and it shuffles your graveyard into your library
22:26:39 <ais523> no, the wording on that is very slightly different
22:26:42 <ais523> `card-by-name Progenitus
22:26:43 <HackEgo> Progenitus \ WWUUBBRRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Hydra Avatar \ 10/10 \ Protection from everything \ If Progenitus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Progenitus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead. \ CON-M, MMA-M, V11-M
22:26:52 <ais523> `card-by-name Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
22:26:54 <HackEgo> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn \ 15 \ Legendary Creature -- Eldrazi \ 15/15 \ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered. \ When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one. \ Flying, protection from colored spells, annihilator 6 \ When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
22:27:02 <ais523> Progenitus is in general a lot less abusable
22:27:21 <ais523> as it only affects itself, not the rest of the graveyard
22:27:30 <ais523> although I guess in this case, having one card there is enough
22:29:17 <wob_jonas> anyway, I think 15 cards would be hard because there's a lot of infrastructure you need to make many copies of multiple cards
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22:29:52 <wob_jonas> if you have generic enough anti-decking, plus Omnipotence, then maybe it's not that bad
22:32:28 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name cackling counterpart
22:32:29 <HackEgo> Cackling Counterpart \ 1UU \ Instant \ Create a token that's a copy of target creature you control. \ Flashback {5}{U}{U} (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.) \ ISD-R, C14-R, MM3-R
22:34:12 <HackEgo> Elvish Branchbender \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf Druid \ 2/2 \ {T}: Until end of turn, target Forest becomes an X/X Treefolk creature in addition to its other types, where X is the number of Elves you control. \ LRW-C
22:34:52 <wob_jonas> looking through all lorwyn block giants, treefolk, and fairies
22:35:08 <wob_jonas> because those are the minor tribes, and I know some of those cards care about one of the major tribes
22:35:16 <wob_jonas> (though I don't think it happens to fairies)
22:35:52 <HackEgo> Hearthcage Giant \ 6RR \ Creature -- Giant Warrior \ 5/5 \ When Hearthcage Giant enters the battlefield, create two 3/1 red Elemental Shaman creature tokens. \ Sacrifice an Elemental: Target Giant creature gets +3/+1 until end of turn. \ LRW-U
22:35:59 <wob_jonas> another one that's not usable because it's on an activated ability
22:37:50 <wob_jonas> What creature types does Shadowmoor and Eventide care about, besides the Lorwyn ones and Warrior?
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22:38:48 <ais523> `card-by-name soulcatchers' aerie
22:38:51 <HackEgo> Soulcatchers' Aerie \ 1W \ Enchantment \ Whenever a Bird is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, put a feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ Bird creatures get +1/+1 for each feather counter on Soulcatchers' Aerie. \ JUD-U
22:39:02 <ais523> if only those two creature types were different, it'd be perfect
22:39:16 <ais523> err, not quite, would implement a different esolang but one that's still probably TC
22:39:19 <wob_jonas> aren't there a lot of clerics where you could say the same?
22:40:31 <wob_jonas> hmm, I should look through cards that care about clerics or soldiers. they had a lot of goodies back then. soldiers still have some, but the cleric tribal seems entirely abandonned.
22:41:55 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Battletide Alchemist
22:41:56 <ais523> a search for clerics with "whenever" in their oracle text didn't find anything useful
22:41:56 <HackEgo> Battletide Alchemist \ 3WW \ Creature -- Kithkin Cleric \ 3/4 \ If a source would deal damage to a player, you may prevent X of that damage, where X is the number of Clerics you control. \ MOR-R
22:42:13 <wob_jonas> for clerics and soldiers, I'm not expecting anything with two creature types
22:42:49 <ais523> apart from Rotlung Reanimator but we're already using that
22:43:49 <wob_jonas> you know about Daru Spiritualist, right? it's useful for infinite healing decks, although there are a lot of other cards that can replace it
22:44:18 <wob_jonas> I'm probably still going to use it if when I rebuild that deck better, because its cheap mana cost makes it attractive
22:44:28 <ais523> I saw it, not sure how it helps here
22:45:08 <wob_jonas> (plus it combos with Starlit Sanctum)
22:49:15 <wob_jonas> hmm... Panoptic Mirror isn't easy to use, because it has a "may"
22:49:53 <ais523> `card-by-name faces of the past
22:49:55 <HackEgo> Faces of the Past \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever a creature dies, tap all untapped creatures that share a creature type with it or untap all tapped creatures that share a creature type with it. \ SCG-R
22:50:20 <ais523> that seems really promising as it means we can use a card's ability as one creature type, and its type line (which is very hackable) as another
22:50:36 <ais523> err, "or", how annoying
22:50:54 <ais523> the original was ambiguous and I was hoping it'd have been oracled to "and"
22:51:59 <HackEgo> Avacyn's Collar \ 1 \ Artifact -- Equipment \ Equipped creature gets +1/+0 and has vigilance. \ Whenever equipped creature dies, if it was a Human, create a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying. \ Equip {2} \ DKA-U
22:54:26 <HackEgo> Dread Slaver \ 3BB \ Creature -- Zombie Horror \ 3/5 \ Whenever a creature dealt damage by Dread Slaver this turn dies, return it to the battlefield under your control. That creature is a black Zombie in addition to its other colors and types. \ AVR-R
22:54:33 <HackEgo> Alpha Brawl \ 6RR \ Sorcery \ Target creature an opponent controls deals damage equal to its power to each other creature that player controls, then each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to that creature. \ DKA-R
22:55:14 <wob_jonas> no, the latter isn't too easy, you can't force it to target the right creature more than one or two ways
22:56:34 <ais523> `card-by-name Hungry Lynx
22:56:35 <HackEgo> Hungry Lynx \ 1G \ Creature -- Cat \ 2/2 \ Cats you control have protection from Rats. (They can't be blocked, targeted, or dealt damage by Rats.) \ At the beginning of your end step, target opponent creates a 1/1 black Rat creature token with deathtouch. \ Whenever a Rat dies, put a +1/+1 counter on each Cat you control. \ C17-R
22:56:50 <ais523> first two abilities do nothing, third is exactly the effect we want
22:56:58 <wob_jonas> I wouldn't say they do nothing, but still
22:57:04 <wob_jonas> yes, the third one is exactly what we need
22:57:09 <ais523> nothing in this construction
22:57:29 <ais523> thank you Commander 17
22:57:47 <ais523> I wasn't expecting to see the exact ability I needed appearing as printed on a single card
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22:58:57 <ais523> the one remaining problem is that newly played cards will appear at the wrong toughness but that can be fixed with a huge stack of creature-type-specific anthems
23:00:23 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:35 <ais523> so that their "natural" stats hit the toughness we need
23:01:36 <ais523> let's see, what cards do we need altogether?
23:02:04 <HackEgo> Brass Herald \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Golem \ 2/2 \ As Brass Herald enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. \ When Brass Herald enters the battlefield, reveal the top four cards of your library. Put all creature cards of the chosen type revealed this way into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. \ Creatures o
23:02:25 <ais523> triggers: Noxious Ghoul, Faceless Devourer, Hungry Lynx, Rotlung Reanimator
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23:02:42 <wob_jonas> if that card is in commander 17, then who's updated HackEgo's database such that it's already in it?
23:03:00 <ais523> some time in 2017 I guess
23:03:10 <ais523> core sets were numbered after the following year
23:03:14 <ais523> but commander sets are numbered after their own year, I think
23:03:35 <wob_jonas> a moment, I can look this up, there's a really good wikipedia article
23:04:50 <ais523> setup: Artifical Evolution, Cackling Counterpart, Blades of Velis Vel
23:05:14 <ais523> (the Blades make things immune to Noxious Ghoul's effect)
23:05:51 <wob_jonas> the Blade sounds like it's hard to get out from though
23:05:54 <ais523> permanent toughness set: lord of atlantis
23:06:03 <ais523> the Blades are only used on the ROM
23:06:09 <ais523> to prevent its toughness decreasing
23:06:24 <ais523> thus they never die or ETB, and we don't need to worry about their toughness randomly /increasing/
23:06:46 <wob_jonas> no no. Lord of Atlantis is now a Merfolk, ever since the Lorwyn updates
23:07:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: you Blades of Velis Vel it
23:07:34 <ais523> so it doesn't die to Noxious Ghoul
23:07:41 <ais523> and nothing else will have a negative effect on it
23:08:19 <ais523> it just sits there, being a changeling means it can't be -1/-1'd, and you don't care about how many +1/+1s it gets
23:08:29 <wob_jonas> I'm getting tired to evaluate this now, but we have logs
23:08:50 <wob_jonas> so what do you use to recycle spells?
23:09:03 <ais523> `card-by-name wheel of sun and moon
23:09:06 <HackEgo> Wheel of Sun and Moon \ (g/w)(g/w) \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant player \ If a card would be put into enchanted player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is revealed and put on the bottom of that player's library. \ SHM-R
23:09:16 <ais523> `card-by-name null profusion
23:09:16 <HackEgo> Null Profusion \ 4BB \ Enchantment \ Skip your draw step. \ Whenever you play a card, draw a card. \ Your maximum hand size is two. \ PLC-R
23:09:38 <ais523> I believe that combo lets you just keep casting spells forever
23:09:44 <ais523> when you have an empty library, at least
23:09:51 <wob_jonas> how is that enough? what do you do with spells you don't want?
23:09:59 <wob_jonas> or cards in your hand that you don't want
23:10:19 <ais523> well we're assuming that you have your entire deck in your hand and omniscience on the battlefield
23:10:26 <ais523> (this is the end state of the omnitell combo)
23:11:18 <wob_jonas> what do you need to fetch your whole sideboard?
23:11:33 <ais523> `card-by-name research // development
23:11:33 <HackEgo> Research // Development \ GU // 3UR \ Instant // Instant \ Choose up to four cards you own from outside the game and shuffle them into your library. // Create a 3/1 red Elemental creature token unless any opponent has you draw a card. Repeat this process two more times. \ DIS-R
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23:12:49 <ais523> AFAICT you need WoSaM in your maindeck (at least it's not a terrible card – it hoses some graveyard strategies)
23:12:53 <wob_jonas> also, um, do you know if Waterfall Model with 350 (or whatever is the current or near-future number of M:tG non-silver-border-only creature types) clocks is TC?
23:12:57 <ais523> but R//D can be in your sideboard
23:13:23 <ais523> I don't know what the minimum number of clocks needed for TCness is but it's surely got to be less than that
23:16:41 <ais523> the idea is that you start the programming (once the combo's setup) using Cunning Wish (from your maindeck) for R//D, WoSaM (from your maindeck) so that you can cast it multiple times, and cantrips from your maindeck to keep redrawing it before you have Null Profusion
23:18:19 <ais523> actually, even better: the deck naturally features two copies of Emrakul
23:18:53 <ais523> with Omniscience out, you can get the graveyard recycle by playing one when the other's on the battlefield, and tuhs legend-ruling it so it goes into the graveyard and recycles it
23:23:53 <ais523> one last thing we need to do is to produce an observable effect, i.e. making someone win when a particular creature dies
23:24:21 <ais523> and if we're setting this up in a real game we'll probably need to adjust life totals first
23:25:36 <wob_jonas> don't you also need to animate artifacts or enchantments or something so you can Cackling them?
23:25:54 <wob_jonas> or is everything you need naturally a creature or sorcery or instant?
23:26:28 <ais523> all creatures/sorceries/instants in this version, I thiink
23:31:07 <ais523> even better, they're all nonlegendary
23:33:17 <ais523> oh, we also need a Donate effect
23:33:20 <ais523> but that shouldn't be too hard
23:34:19 <ais523> Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we'll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes
23:41:06 <ais523> hmm, we also need a way to get rid of our own setup ability
23:41:10 <ais523> e.g. by exiling our own hand
23:42:29 <ais523> Cranial Extraction works, actually even Surgical Extraction is probably enough
23:45:12 <wob_jonas> could you use Holistic Wisdom to get rid of cards from your hand but also pull double-duty to start the setup?
23:46:11 <ais523> also we need to get rid of any ability the opponent might have to make choices
23:46:46 <ais523> which means we want to be able to exile their hand too
23:47:08 <ais523> perhaps Slaughter Games, in that case?
23:47:19 <ais523> it can exile a nonland card from anywhere but the battlefield
23:47:23 <wob_jonas> and Cranial Extraction is great because it also lets you exile cards from a graveyard, which is actually relevant against many opponents in an eternal format
23:47:55 <ais523> Surgical Extraction /only/ lets you do that if the card's in a graveyard, but it costs 4 less
23:48:00 <ais523> and is a common hate card in eternal formats
23:49:00 <ais523> wait, Slaughter Games can't self-target
23:49:44 <ais523> Surgical it is, then, I guess
23:53:27 <wob_jonas> As a worse possibility, use any split second spell to shut down most choices, and as a response, sacrifice your Wild Cantor to start the program with a death trigger
23:53:46 <wob_jonas> in this version you can't start with a death trigger
23:54:42 <ais523> there are death triggers on the Faceless Devourers
23:54:50 <wob_jonas> nah, I'm tired and confused now, I can't think straight
23:54:59 <wob_jonas> I'll have to file all this until tomorrow
23:55:12 <ais523> the setup there is nontrivial but it might be possible?
23:55:22 <ais523> like, the "traditional" start of this is to cast the third copy
23:55:28 <ais523> but say we stifle it somehow
23:56:05 <ais523> wait, we're going to need three /physical/ Faceless Devourers for the infinite death trigger loop if we do it like this
23:56:11 <ais523> so perhaps we should create it some other way
23:56:43 <ais523> Rotlung Reanimator + a static -2/-2 effect, for example
23:56:50 <ais523> so that we have a token being created and dying infinitely
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23:58:05 <wob_jonas> but what triggers on the deaths now other than that?
23:58:12 <wob_jonas> and how do you ensure the correct order?
23:58:17 <ais523> Noxious Ghoul is watching for the token's creature type
23:58:31 <ais523> we control that as the active player
23:58:51 <ais523> then if it kills something else at the same time, that gets reanimated by a donated Rotlung Reanimator
23:58:55 <ais523> under the opponent's control
23:59:04 <ais523> due to APNAP our trigger stacks first so it resolves last
23:59:46 <wob_jonas> that sounds exactly like the black magic it is