< 1513123473 190913 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1513123509 438293 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to say something with all kinds of formatting, to test a thing. It should even have 12,11background colors. < 1513123773 892550 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mysterious V format. < 1513123786 597012 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, reverse! < 1513123792 702933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reverse video I didn't do. < 1513123809 733606 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizziello. will you put the logs in the /topic? < 1513123813 847602 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because https://modern.ircdocs.horse/formatting.html said it's a little unclear. < 1513123818 111887 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as they're ready. < 1513123859 295294 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? #esteric < 1513123860 447709 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esteric? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1513123866 212398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? #esoteric < 1513123867 389253 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone. < 1513123953 673310 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's about five TODOs to address before I think the logs would be ready enough to publicize. < 1513124073 464079 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) Add a blurb (probably at the bottom of the index page) with explanations and links to other logs; (2) start the log-server as a service rather than just running it in a screen manually; (3) read the config from a file instead of it being hardcoded; (4) publish the source code; and (5) make the CSS not *horribly* broken on mobile. < 1513124073 962946 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you heard of our lord and saviour Cucumber, of the Holy Acceptance Test-Driven Development? < 1513124172 983547 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1513124466 530769 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, tests would be nice too. < 1513124572 325638 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513124857 351546 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1513125249 840629 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 & 3 done. < 1513126471 616228 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: are your nostrils dæmoniac? < 1513126652 254518 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1513126945 459241 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1513127367 497116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 done-ish. It's not *good* by any means, but I added extra line spacing in the index for @media (pointer:coarse), and then added a @media (max-width: 640px) breakpoint on the logs page to switch to a "time \nmessage\n\n"-style layout instead. < 1513127383 491411 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still one CSS trick I've not managed, and that is to have in the desktop experience, simultaneously, (a) the message body section take up any extra space without scripting, (b) the messages to line-wrap aligned to where they start, and (c) the end result be copy-pasteable without horrible extra newlines. < 1513127388 529709 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up doing (a) & (b) by "display: flex", but now there's newlines everywhere. When I tried non-flexboxy ways which did (c) well, either I had to specify a width or the lines would wrap to the left edge. < 1513127398 18554 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Webdev is hard and unpleasant. :/ < 1513127547 131430 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: The one-page version is much more convenient. < 1513127557 652761 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why paginate it by year? < 1513127659 31226 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was behaving real sluggishly for me. I can add an "all" view, but I think I'll still keep the default as the most recent year. < 1513127709 667412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgtm < 1513127749 661284 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it going to have codu.org's stalker mode? < 1513127929 524908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a v2 thing. Maybe? I didn't check yet how that's implemented, though I think I saw some XHR being involved. < 1513127989 451290 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it should be websockets these days. < 1513128245 436676 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1513128382 803207 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513129311 396247 :UnB_Z!~69Caim69@179-199-28-222.user.veloxzone.com.br JOIN :#esoteric < 1513129470 970108 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1513129624 807281 :Guest6549!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-110-171.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1513129687 730264 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-157-84.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1513130879 924675 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1513131063 206179 :UnB_Z!~69Caim69@179-199-28-222.user.veloxzone.com.br PART :#esoteric < 1513131124 64007 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513131589 385867 :sleffy!~sleffy@24.7.67.0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1513132091 21505 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: DUTCH CHICKEN < 1513132201 612141 :Soni!SoniEx2@unaffiliated/soniex2 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1513133906 397423 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513134531 908403 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1513134549 88814 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513134721 406215 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513135147 996870 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513135170 137222 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513135256 141533 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513135274 90826 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection timed out < 1513135860 393529 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1513136702 361311 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1513137098 717710 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1513137146 398649 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@206.174.0.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513137564 392011 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :constant < 1513139861 329606 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513139861 721800 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513140170 901462 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdssoniorctpppff JOIN :#esoteric < 1513141501 26582 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513141501 385470 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513141565 38069 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513141565 251470 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513141704 353359 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513141704 620969 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513141800 386691 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513141800 474027 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Client Quit < 1513141800 689198 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1513143016 107789 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513144169 337785 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@206.174.0.58 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1513144715 82390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1513145840 576735 :augur_!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513146045 230279 :augur!~augur@45.34.140.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1513148277 884741 :augur_!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1513148589 217727 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1513148700 732177 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1513148816 745059 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1513148930 770058 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513148930 943205 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net NICK :MDude < 1513148931 923968 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Excess Flood < 1513148950 773467 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513149089 863252 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcotmwoffiyz31.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1513150031 931133 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcotmwoffiyz31.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1513151023 703691 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513152298 378455 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@206.174.0.58 JOIN :#esoteric > 1513152754 199708 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Purple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53574&oldid=53520 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-25) 10golf python interpreter < 1513152808 891536 :constant!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero > 1513152937 721982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Purple14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53575&oldid=53574 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-1) 10just one more byte, i promise > 1513153400 323784 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Purple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53576&oldid=53575 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-20) 10okay a few more bytes off python interpreter > 1513153529 33645 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Purple14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53577&oldid=53576 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-3) 10okay i swear these are the last two bytes for the night < 1513154976 69953 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1513156919 335571 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@206.174.0.58 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1513157125 354556 :Soni!SoniEx2@unaffiliated/soniex2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513157577 694997 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1513158332 45906 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcotmwoffiyz31.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1513160560 732236 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa #esoteric is 15? < 1513160620 920080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 11 for me. < 1513160680 144654 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the topic disagrees it would seem < 1513160704 901903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, definite window 11. < 1513161736 488657 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vdssoniorctpppff QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1513163827 711373 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: "how are you supposed to remember the difference between learn_append and learn_append2?" => you just have to remember that wisdoms are stored as plain text files in the wisdom directory, lowercased and with a trailing s stripped from their name, and the `? rules of wisdom < 1513163833 220212 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rules of wisdom < 1513163834 245483 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless essential for the entry‘s humor, should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation < 1513163862 195542 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can manipulate them with ordinary unix tools. this is the whole point of using plain text for all sort of source files and configuration files, that we can use the same tools for each of them < 1513163884 739183 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make custom tools if you prefer, but you're not required to use other people's custom tools < 1513163929 347231 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1513164400 268161 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools. < 1513164400 357967 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1513164487 836167 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm. < 1513164493 655337 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd rules of wisdom//s/should/they &/ < 1513164495 627666 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules of wisdom//unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation < 1513164555 520635 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/learn_append < 1513164556 171166 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/bash \ topic="$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/s\? .*//')" \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic" < 1513164557 576887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/learn_append2 < 1513164558 192197 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: bin/learn_append2: No such file or directory < 1513164570 204832 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: seems p. easy to remember to me hth < 1513164965 26497 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513165098 454026 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have a command for (1) looking up a wisdom from name and returning its filename, or (2) doing normalization on the name of a new wisdom and returning the filename you should create it as? < 1513165343 97200 :h0rsep0wer!~h0rsep0we@unaffiliated/h0rsep0wer JOIN :#esoteric < 1513166257 566530 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Quit: reboot (update) < 1513166382 936484 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jellonas. I think we settled on normalization hth < 1513166491 889921 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: we didn't settle. someone changed the handling of leading backtick just half a year ago or something. < 1513166572 406074 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1513166890 981987 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not? hmm < 1513166895 460572 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? `rules of wisdom < 1513166896 494889 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless essential for the entry‘s humor, they should: be understandable without the lookup key, be single spaced and end in a newline with no space before that, and use proper capitalization and punctuation < 1513166902 822819 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it was changed < 1513167038 36576 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hand < 1513167039 304773 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird. < 1513167046 990578 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that applies to case (1) only I think < 1513167049 1632 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1513167067 794506 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows, maybe next time we'll install a stemmer or something < 1513167080 702486 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make hand-normalization pretty much impossible < 1513167291 430589 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, a tutorial for making up misattributed quotes: http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=3225 < 1513167737 523251 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: AIR CHICKEN > 1513168747 275360 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07WLoop14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53578&oldid=53572 5* 03Sacchan 5* (+135) 10 > 1513168767 708327 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Sacchan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53579&oldid=43739 5* 03Sacchan 5* (+12) 10 < 1513170320 728466 :h0rsep0wer!~h0rsep0we@unaffiliated/h0rsep0wer QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1513172587 743066 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1513172944 784733 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513176576 401021 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1513177403 130825 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1513177703 28201 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1513178372 405539 :ski_!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se NICK :ski < 1513178553 341953 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie TOPIC #esoteric :Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1513178559 271817 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might as well have it there. < 1513178593 811793 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, nice < 1513178631 282060 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if the canonical links in the topic should be https://. < 1513178686 572801 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is set up like that in the wiki configuration, but AFAIK that only affects two things: the links in the recent changes posted by the bot, and the links included in any automated emails. < 1513178867 110251 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513179109 301663 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? no reason < 1513179110 376113 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1513179121 67453 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? any reason < 1513179122 128523 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? reason < 1513179122 204923 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1513179123 105344 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reason? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1513179262 639433 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: HackEgo is completely unreasonable > 1513179493 512783 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53580&oldid=49124 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+42) 10/* #Esoteric */ Add local logs link. < 1513181257 248382 :jaboja!~jaboja@5.196.225.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513181299 338920 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in github, to create a pull request, I still have to clone the repository to a github account, right? < 1513181338 350609 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513181709 468644 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: if you don't have write permission to the repo, according to Github's help doc < 1513182107 693638 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1513182181 335207 :jaboja!~jaboja@5.196.225.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1513182350 341890 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: ok < 1513182984 557863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513183912 546037 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1513184716 128670 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1513184830 60621 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection < 1513184843 130363 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric > 1513187861 63489 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Community portal14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53581&oldid=53580 5* 03Ais523 5* (-236) 10/* Information */ rm section; not much point in supporting an esolang section on Stack Overflow Documentation when the entire site has shut down < 1513188525 592063 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to delete all files in /tmp/ belonging to me? < 1513188580 58396 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm -rf /tmp/ as you? < 1513188600 424951 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zseri: that will also delete files that I have write access to < 1513188606 660236 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1513188607 958737 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't belong to me < 1513188628 600607 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :find /tmp/ -user ... -rm ? < 1513188651 379441 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm find... yeah I'll look at teh manpage < 1513188705 702398 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :find -maxdepth 1 -user oren -delete < 1513189005 92932 :CoffeeCatt_!68adc259@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.173.194.89 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513189066 350461 :CoffeeCatt_!68adc259@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.173.194.89 PART :#esoteric < 1513189118 364439 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should introduce a cursor class into zsdatab for context browsing, e.g. access of fields by name in each row < 1513189143 143816 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hmm, dead link? < 1513189214 891598 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the logs one) < 1513189360 82991 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind. < 1513189392 370668 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION was bitten by an outdated entry in /etc/hosts ...
< 1513189397 830395 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513189793 243789 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hpovwnupozstaxfa JOIN :#esoteric < 1513190028 428162 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1513190545 184444 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1513190797 129415 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1513190867 227553 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Client Quit < 1513190929 587054 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoerjelloan < 1513191170 420718 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote chicken < 1513191172 10589 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :303) my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 601) There's British KFC? Kent < 1513191334 883439 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint-e < 1513191342 544949 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm still no xkcd < 1513191448 35909 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monday's Freefall was nice. < 1513191538 950937 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I liked the twist on "we're the worst people to do it") > 1513192541 883367 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07CJam14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53582&oldid=53021 5* 03Nooodl 5* (-2) 10fix attribution < 1513193229 608972 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: looked at the new logs index, somehow all the months show as overlapping each other. < 1513193250 452740 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably can blame IE somehow.) < 1513193313 520985 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION falls back to address bar editing, which is how he usually accesses the logs anyway
< 1513193323 795265 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: CSS is hard. :/ I probably shouldn't have even attempted to make it use several columns, I was just annoyed at the lots of wasted screen real estate. < 1513193344 710669 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh columns... < 1513193364 439383 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not really columns. It's a flexbox. < 1513193382 316851 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://caniuse.com/#search=flexbox says IE 11 but "Partial support is due to large amount of bugs present (see known issues)". < 1513193392 858161 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1513193423 438024 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which version of IE are you interested in? < 1513193463 29076 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm using 11, which is the final one. < 1513193770 69622 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at those known issues, maybe I can make some tweaks. Wonder if there's good free ways to test with IE. < 1513194357 921190 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that big of a deal for me, anyway < 1513194548 44923 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can get a free windows 10 virtual box on microsoft website < 1513194807 936016 :augur!~augur@108-233-87-134.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513194819 404198 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : b_jonas: Manipulating them with standard tools is exactly what I do, but people complain I don't use the tools. <-- to be more precise, what i complain about is any kind of edit where i cannot see from what happens in the channel whether you messed something up. which is why the HackEgo tools all display the resulting file. < 1513195027 94587 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and for wisdoms, whether there was one previously.) < 1513195050 225086 :augur_!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513195071 889855 :augur!~augur@108-233-87-134.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1513196554 99942 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513196601 780555 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a next/previous link in the HTML version of the new logs might make sense < 1513196795 1867 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, today gog speaks russian with me > 1513197076 904448 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Minin 5* 10New user account < 1513197289 743024 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: who is gog < 1513197328 443074 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :a drm free game shop < 1513197581 284023 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that their front page is served from a cache which isn't good at guessing languages. it's amusing. < 1513197764 526545 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube is sometimes stupid at finding musical numbers from phrases in their lyrics. you have to use the title. < 1513197810 808815 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I search for 'oda is eljőnek szüzek szép leányok' directly in youtube, it finds random nonsense, even though if I search for that in the main google search, it knows which song that is from < 1513197816 946945 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1513197817 111924 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera QUIT :*.net *.split < 1513197825 392241 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1513197859 884737 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera JOIN :#esoteric < 1513198367 838460 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513198651 867923 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1513198915 70774 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Agreed, was going to add one. < 1513199027 979879 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1513199167 777979 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1513199699 46631 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-91-183.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1513199743 947220 :Guest6549!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-110-171.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds > 1513200095 890982 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53583&oldid=53560 5* 03Minin 5* (+262) 10/* Introductions */ > 1513200125 67787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Minin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53584 5* 03Minin 5* (+13) 10Created page with "me me big boy" > 1513200146 850823 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Minin14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53585 5* 03Minin 5* (+3) 10Created page with "no." < 1513200231 170661 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wonder if it would be worth splitting to fewer pages, not one per day, but like one per week or one per two weeks < 1513200348 292982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome esowiki < 1513200349 629791 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04esowiki: 07Welcome 08to 09the 02international 06hub 13for 04esoteric 07programming 08language 09design 02and 06deployment! 13For 04more 07information, 08check 09out 02our 06wiki: 13. 04(For 07the 08other 09kind 02of 06esoterica, 13try 04#esoteric 07on 08EFnet 09or 02DALnet.) < 1513200766 453888 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fwiw, I like the 1 day granularity. < 1513200966 5933 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, today gog speaks russian with me <-- * briefly reads that as "dog" < 1513200983 37052 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Days are sort of the convention. That's not to say I couldn't offer other granularities as well, e.g. as /weeks.html for the index and /YYYY-wNN.{html,txt} for the logs. < 1513201150 693301 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're actually saved as logs/Y/M/D.pb(.br) with no padding of dates, which I kind of regret, because ls sorts the months "1 10 11 12 2 3 ..." and so on. (There's probably an option.) < 1513201216 192370 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1513201544 64539 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1513201545 225174 :zseri!~zseri@94.134.202.13 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1513201610 237669 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I'm kind of tempted to suggest marking the days of the week, thus: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/e.html < 1513201673 568041 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I did that manually so I stopped after 1 1/2 months) < 1513201887 815274 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: longer files would help searches > 1513201942 939579 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:Minin14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53586&oldid=53584 5* 03Minin 5* (+42) 10 > 1513201974 190501 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kappa14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53587 5* 03Minin 5* (+57) 10Created page with "kappa is a language coded by humans, this page is a w.i.p" > 1513202295 257491 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03K1nzy 5* 10New user account < 1513202395 686716 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wonders why IRC documentation would use a .horse domain name
< 1513202463 627115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders whether ais523 has looked at Countercall in the past month.
< 1513202487 677972 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? countercall < 1513202488 719571 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :countercall? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1513202531 17932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I look at recent changes sometimes but can easily miss changes to my watchlist as a result < 1513202532 934720 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Countercall < 1513202543 559127 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm still annoyed by how difficult it is to reason about, despite being obviously non-TC ;-) ) < 1513202547 54339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, nobody's changed it < 1513202552 742152 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm not convinced it's non-TC < 1513202562 923085 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, hence the smiley. < 1513202565 547143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is non-TC, it's for a bizarre reason that isn't shared with most other languages < 1513202571 726915 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact you state the opposite on the wiki page. < 1513202574 362105 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to one of the usual ones < 1513202596 896855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, some sort of chicken-and-egg style problem where to do anything in the language you need to do something else first < 1513202628 37867 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah yes, that crazy language < 1513202632 897984 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the thing still bugs me. < 1513202649 711236 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: what? how is it "obviously non-TC"? < 1513202655 583210 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, smiley < 1513202681 273870 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I really can't make up my mind on whether it's TC < 1513202703 486697 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes I think it's non-TC and there's probably an easy proof for that but it's hard to find < 1513202712 705288 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes I think it's TC < 1513202765 458831 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I thought about countercall a bit because of the interview < 1513202771 167335 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haven't come to conclusions < 1513202780 85071 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this is something I could do a TCness proof for in my head < 1513202784 954074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is my preferred way to do them) < 1513202826 733784 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I did a proof that dofuck is TC in my head, and only has the very minimal limitations with IO that are obvious, but never written them down < 1513202842 650547 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also some proofs about my messed up Amycus with certain primitives removed > 1513202846 625683 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kappa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53588&oldid=53587 5* 03Minin 5* (+436) 10 < 1513202881 573511 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the case of Amycus, finding out that the originally intended language is much less of an esolang made me abandon that < 1513202923 213648 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also know that the language I want to create is TC, and more, it can simulate a pointer machine "efficiently", with only polylog factor of time slowdown < 1513202928 129 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you know that the typed lambda calculus is not TC even if you add a family of fixed point combinators? (a family, because you may need one for every type.) < 1513202968 976326 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that one is easier, because I'm deliberately creating that language to be expressive, unlike Countercall which you deliberately define to be hard to use < 1513202981 867573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, in fact that would greatly surprise me < 1513202994 844484 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the problem that there are only finitely many functions of any given type? < 1513203008 75666 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: countercall was aiming for the edge between TC and not < 1513203013 887550 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as in the typed lambda calculus with no algebraic data type? < 1513203014 18494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think it hit it more precisely than I was expecting < 1513203040 981582 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Richard Statman proved that the halting problem is still, somehow, decidable in that calculus. (The paper is called "On The Lambda Y Calculus")) < 1513203067 282116 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, no algebraic datatypes < 1513203068 667570 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you can simulate sum and product types in typed lambda calculus < 1513203079 363948 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but I want recursive types too < 1513203092 92879 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, lists < 1513203092 848971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, recursive types are more power than typed lambda calculus has < 1513203098 379671 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite ones, anyway < 1513203110 827688 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding any non-empty recursive type (and fixed point combinators) will make it TC. < 1513203129 698840 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, I know, I wrote a loop combinator that way < 1513203143 619794 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :implemented in olvasható < 1513203197 431654 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 < 1513203200 461907 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--) < 1513203203 965369 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait, maybe that's not just one type < 1513203209 48454 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :web.forward: points -44.00, score 0.00, rank 46/47 (--) < 1513203214 317758 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's one type constructor < 1513203272 474594 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you could just use one recursive type that's a union of everything, simulate a weakly typed language, and then, if you prefer, simulate a strongly typed language in that weakly typed language < 1513203277 266844 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural numbers (ala data Nat = Z | S Nat) suffice < 1513203311 291974 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/olvashato/t2n.olv -- yeah, that's not one type, that's in fact two type constructors with two type parameters each. sorry. < 1513203327 485447 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, someone's playing BF Joust < 1513203403 270547 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, I also use the built-in integer number types to do useful things with that loop < 1513203412 75904 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the built-in list type too < 1513203423 386478 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although lists aren't technically necessary < 1513203426 786017 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1513203592 495248 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish rust had an attribute to tell that a given type parameter in a generic fn definition is a phantom parameter, as in that changing it won't change the generated code. the compiler could check this and allow it only if it can prove that it's indeed phantom in that sense. < 1513203611 457847 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this is hard to define precisely without knowing how rust represents certain types. < 1513203642 376012 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :!zjoust hmmm < < 1513203642 807165 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan.hmmm: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 < 1513203645 521896 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: does PhantomData do what you want? < 1513203652 62524 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1513203663 928117 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: PhantomData does something else < 1513203668 449023 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1513203680 203231 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what PhantomData does but not really what you want < 1513203685 430540 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1513203689 523888 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean "uninspected", as in the code just copies around the value without looking at it? < 1513203698 436944 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: this reminds me, has there been a new hilltopper in 2017 at all? < 1513203702 656136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to do one a year < 1513203706 508255 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember < 1513203711 156771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm out of ideas and am worried that BF Joust has been solved < 1513203715 632161 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategy < 1513203720 397503 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1513203722 174082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies > 1513203729 322787 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kappa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53589&oldid=53588 5* 03Minin 5* (+549) 10 < 1513203731 250609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, 2016 < 1513203753 952919 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think things got haywire after that beat-everything-on-the-hill program someone wrote < 1513203774 484889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, there was some sort of automatic winning program generator, wasn't there? < 1513203778 89858 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so gld they did because if they didn't i was going to < 1513203780 170718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you'd have to keep source secret in the future < 1513203784 317684 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it can't even copy around such values, because it would have to know at least the size of that type for that, and we can't express a constraint that implies the size of a type, except possibly in a degenerate way that only zero or one types satisfy < 1513203812 33999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it can copy around pointers to them though < 1513203817 374934 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: actually, you wouldn't need secret source if you either a) added some source of randomness or b) made the hill infinite < 1513203823 294077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, with a Box you don't care what the T is < 1513203833 506276 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it could copy pointers, yes, but it's also possible that it doesn't do even that < 1513203838 804630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I think a) would ruin the game < 1513203848 884128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b) doesn't really work because it'd still only have finitely many programs at any given point < 1513203887 751160 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: b) works because you could submit a family of programs, all similar, such that it was impossible for the same strategy to beat all of them (i think) < 1513203916 537816 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we already constructed one such family < 1513203918 818413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes but you need a huge number of them < 1513203922 762647 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1513203924 690269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several hundred > 1513203930 462954 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53590&oldid=53583 5* 03K1nzy 5* (+193) 10/* Introductions */ < 1513203930 485949 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could generate them automatically < 1513203930 532383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I constructed them a while back, I think < 1513203938 913871 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a different game, but it isn't broken < 1513203938 960389 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's only to avoid being beaten on all tape lengths and polarities < 1513203939 894965 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a finite family? < 1513203949 242147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically they win on tape length 10 < 1513203958 854524 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ah < 1513203982 204081 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and several hundred programs is not a problem for an infinite hill, is it? < 1513203987 801636 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, so what does it guarantee exactly? > 1513203999 644228 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kappa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53591&oldid=53589 5* 03K1nzy 5* (-654) 10 < 1513204027 260067 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it guarantee that against any fixed program, at least one of your family on at least one polarity will not lose on tape length 10? < 1513204032 777932 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it guarantee more? < 1513204045 22622 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several hundred doesn't sound too bad < 1513204049 362208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that in the group of 768 programs, against any fixed program, at least one of those 768 programs will beat it on tape length 10 for any specific polarity < 1513204061 348607 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok < 1513204068 921855 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :768 is not too much < 1513204097 104249 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why would a source of randomness ruin the game? for instance, why wouldn't "bf joust except every tape cell starts with value x, with x chosen uniformly at random from 0 to 255" be a bad game? < 1513204169 940207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: that proposal might not ruin things (apart from the small random chance every program would have of dying if the same rule applied to the flags), but in general randomness allows you to set decoys much more easily than you can deal with them < 1513204179 31453 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you might try to start such a construction by taking all possible strategies a program can do in the first 100000 steps, which would be like 5**2**100001 distinguishable strategies, and then construct a program against each < 1513204186 110197 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd have a rather large infinite family < 1513204191 237297 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF Jousting? Why not. *begins research* < 1513204233 618378 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: there's a time limit < 1513204240 422176 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are only finitely many possible BF Joust programs in theory < 1513204241 82061 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since you keep writing proofs about two-counter machines, which have a double-exponential slowdown from sane computing models, I don't think it's strange that I think of that when you mention a finite family < 1513204242 102052 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: re: the flags, just make it so that winning/dying involves having the flag set to x+128 instead of zero < 1513204244 406163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the space is very large tohugh) < 1513204258 451410 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, exactly, the time limit is 100000 turns. that's what I said. < 1513204280 928159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: so what you have now is equivalent to BF Joust where [ and ] test for a random (but consistent) number rather than 0 < 1513204284 578089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a program for that seems painful < 1513204294 24149 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes exactly < 1513204297 301637 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why painful? < 1513204312 701515 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, even if you know where the enemy flag is, zeroing it would require quite a lot of code < 1513204334 320500 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there probably aren't much less than 2**c**100001 different strategies for some not too small constant c if you allow exponentially large program source codes < 1513204343 17523 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!zjoust runner (>)*8(>[-])*21 < 1513204343 687546 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523.runner: points -12.48, score 10.90, rank 44/47 < 1513204346 916700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a nice idea for a self-modifying game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5BYKRVXHM < 1513204348 248725 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you rather the initial tape value just didn't apply to the flags? < 1513204354 512694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas a simple attack is trivial to write < 1513204366 553697 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: still doesn't help much < 1513204380 907024 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why is it a good thing that a simple attack is trivial to write? < 1513204383 301817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact is that [-] is much simpler and shorter than any routine for setting a cell to some fixed value for which you don't even know what it is < 1513204386 199718 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it supposed to be hard to win? < 1513204398 936048 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I imagine that in practice every program would have 256 different variants, copy-and-pasted < 1513204401 163064 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1513204408 376545 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the skill of BF Joust is about exploiting patterns in what your opponents do < 1513204419 440119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just look at growth2, for example > 1513204420 424415 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Kappa14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53592&oldid=53591 5* 03K1nzy 5* (+441) 10 < 1513204439 676915 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait...why would it not help if we had "bf joust except that every tape value /except the flags/ is uniformly random x"? < 1513204442 805250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if very basic things require very complex code, the patterns will be hard to exploit because they'll be complex in your own right < 1513204452 225536 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still [-] < 1513204452 511470 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: eww no < 1513204472 580481 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would ruin the beauty and simplicity of bfjoust < 1513204490 11231 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION eyes wob_jonas suspiciously.
< 1513204492 218054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: because in that case, decoys don't really work because most code won't be able to distinguish them from the original value anyway < 1513204494 506034 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: beauty+simplicity=solved. the whole goal here is to ruin it in some small way < 1513204511 690802 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: decoys wouldn't be an important strategy in this new game < 1513204540 890072 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, what /would/ be an important strategy? < 1513204555 272104 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nearly all the attack innovations are designed to deal with decoys < 1513204563 645297 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what would be a strategy? Go forward 10 steps, and start clearing? < 1513204591 96734 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that's a search space of like 257**28 different starting patterns, although the server would probably only do a statistical test on a set of starting patterns chosen crypto randomly, but still, there might be a lot of pairs of programs that beat each other very close to 1/2 the time, and that would be hard to judge > 1513204593 309530 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53593&oldid=53550 5* 03K1nzy 5* (+12) 10/* Non-alphabetic */ < 1513204594 767804 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :turtle would still be viable. defense would still be viable. a lot of other things would require innovation from scratch. < 1513204611 663786 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically the whole art of defense would probably be lost... and there's no reasonable way of guessing the tape length anymore. < 1513204641 935935 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1513204705 486443 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if everyone abandons decoys...it would be possible to check tape length by looking at tape cells and seeing if they have the same value. it's slower, but maybe that's a good thing. < 1513204734 698511 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it becomes useful to modify the tape cells to be slightly different from their sstarting values, and decoys come back < 1513204800 383912 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513204805 613816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well what probably happens is that people write 256 different versions of their code and just change between them based on the second tape element < 1513204825 90 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't practically interfere with that; a fast rush program could do so in current BF Joust but you can't write fast rush programs in this variant because they can't safely move fast enough < 1513204866 583631 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay here's a weird idea for a game-that-totally-isn't-bf-joust: the jousters start with opposite values of zero and opposite flag heights. what A thinks is zero, B thinks is 128, and while A thinks its flag is zeroed, B thinks A's flag is 128. And vice versa. < 1513204902 832469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the values in between? < 1513204921 509518 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: is that just L:TG? < 1513204947 823427 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: idunno. maybe they alternate between 64 and -64 < 1513204959 732421 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or between 128 and 0 < 1513204974 965868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a key strategic point of BF Joust is the fact that a cell without a decoy is very easy to skip past < 1513204976 844560 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: in L:TG, the players number slots from the opposite direction, so when you can reference slot 0 the easiest and slot 1 the next easiest, those are harder for your opponent to reference < 1513204995 641780 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is L:TG? < 1513205022 516948 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering < 1513205145 944295 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1513205152 895599 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah that is a similar idea < 1513205240 827803 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1513205309 801693 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so what if all the cells between are set to 64 or -64 (alternating) but there is a new conditional {} that detects either of those values specifically. < 1513205353 919749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getting more complex but starting to be maybe viable < 1513205357 399725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still prefer the original game I think though < 1513205405 148127 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, you can just make the in-between cells 64 for both programs, making - for one program the same as + for the other < 1513205476 816098 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you want to think of that as renormalized by shifting all values with -64 and modifying the loop statements < 1513205478 62678 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1513205534 759993 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's basically BF Joust except that the flags start at 64 and you win by changing them to -64 < 1513205546 936733 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, come to think of it < 1513205554 295817 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :stealth programs do way too well in this variant < 1513205558 520325 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sort of. you also have two extra statements < 1513205568 349693 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just set your own flag to look the same as the filler on the tape < 1513205607 15089 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only way the opponent can stop that is by either a fast rush (those things are typically easy to stop), or by adjusting every filler element by 64 to see if it's actually a flag in disguise < 1513205620 919931 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas stealth programs in regular BF Joust have to constantly stay on their flag to avoid losing < 1513205624 290767 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1513205630 597866 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you still have another statement, don't you? < 1513205642 804683 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that tests for exactly the value you have to attain in the goal square < 1513205658 46412 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes < 1513205665 898043 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah i was thinking the same about making them all 64, except i would allow both the sieve and kettle polarities. there shouldn't be a way to tell the difference between polarity and flag height by testing < 1513205671 423112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that still takes 128 cycles < 1513205699 269764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: the only reason sieve and kettle exist is so that players don't have to write their programs both ways round to see which is better < 1513205712 587995 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in retrospect, it'd have worked better to start flags at 100 or so and break the symmetry that way < 1513205719 364603 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh by the way < 1513205776 504093 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh but they do so much more than that. it makes it so you have to optimize your program to work best on the sum of both polarities rather than just one of the two < 1513205787 782210 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about games that are both multiplayer classic german-style board games, but at the same time their visible state can be written in a small enough space that you could play them easily in IRC with an IRC bot handling the game rules but only ordinary IRC clients on the player's side < 1513205794 561743 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some classical card games are technically like that < 1513205810 899854 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: also, their hidden state needs to be player-specific < 1513205815 809811 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have played such games < 1513205815 924113 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas games with rectangular boards typically aren't like that < 1513205826 67836 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC board games < 1513205828 571192 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need to draw a large rectangular board that's hard to put in one irc line < 1513205828 983091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's hard to do something like poker over IRC if you only have one deck < 1513205840 458191 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because how do you stop people drawing the same cards as each other? < 1513205879 60927 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the irc bot can handle the hidden state, but it's even better to have games where there's no state hidden from just one player, only randomness that's hidden equally from all players < 1513205879 213590 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay not eurogames. i've played apples to apples cards against humanity and seen mafia played with a bot. there's no reason that basically any game that doesn't require complicated art work couldn't work the same < 1513205922 727671 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a game that I think would work well is Niagara, which has a really small state and no hidden state at all < 1513205936 717993 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but requires at least three players, at least four preferred, which is sort of a drawback < 1513205969 300101 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can think of a few games that have those properties < 1513205981 705523 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't see what's wrong with player-specific hidden state? < 1513206003 855365 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: player-specific hidden state can work too, sure, like in poker < 1513206007 660418 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or many other card games < 1513206024 129334 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :player-specific hidden state is fine, you just need it to be independent really < 1513206024 579886 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what doesn't work exactly? < 1513206032 484637 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. correlations between the hidden states are hard to set up without a bot < 1513206041 664663 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but I did say there'd be a bot < 1513206056 897892 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more interesting to have games you could play without < 1513206063 371189 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the bot can be fancy, only the UI the players have to install can't be, it must work with any plain IRC client on their side < 1513206063 587079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some zero-hidden-state games like chess < 1513206078 658281 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, or Niagara < 1513206101 647384 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, chess definitely works, people have been playing correspondence chat way before irc existed < 1513206107 678753 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/chat/chess/ < 1513206124 949639 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a framework for them: https://github.com/Zarthus/irc-games-bot < 1513206134 834757 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in your defense, people have been playing correspondence chat way before chess existed < 1513206144 617897 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I hate frameworks < 1513206157 610813 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LKoen: lol < 1513206230 213292 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :most hidden state issues can be solved with hash functions, but it can make the game tedious < 1513206246 27558 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LKoen: yes, but you need either a trusted bot or a special client for that < 1513206247 805963 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the frameworks hate? it seems awfully useful to be able to add a new game by just adding a small amount of code to an existing bot designed for the purpose < 1513206261 449369 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't expect people to compute cryptographically safe functions in their head < 1513206271 644245 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, but the bot can be offline < 1513206296 991528 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unless there is money involve in the game, you're probably fine with something as unsafe as md5 < 1513206298 424644 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: because the irc protocol is so simple that you can do that without a framework, a framework usually just makes it harder in the "now I have two problems" way < 1513206316 976571 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :LKoen: doesn't matter, people don't complain md5 in their head either < 1513206323 726760 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: sounds like you've used some bad frameworks :) < 1513206329 780993 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a real computer, and these days a very cheap real computer can compute secure hashes too < 1513206369 145579 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes, my work involves computer stuff, including trying to work with programs co-workers write < 1513206435 725798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think I fixed the IE11 thing. At least this IE11 screenshotting website (which originally showed them overlapping, like you said) now renders right. < 1513206475 769689 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, about that cryptographical stuff I was asking about, I understand now that people use spihash when a birthday attack isn't a problem, because then you can get away with half as long a hash then normally, and the 64 bits of hash tables seems enough at least to avoid hash table performance degradation attacks, but < 1513206501 52426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "attacks, but" < 1513206503 717543 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got cut off < 1513206520 123678 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) I think people are also abusing siphash for things where, although you can indeed get away with a half-sized hash because birthday attacks aren't a problem, 64 bits seems suspiciously slow, and < 1513206542 330346 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not enough text to have been cut off :-P < 1513206604 478643 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"slow, and" < 1513206624 886980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but either something very weird is going on or you're just screwing me < 1513206633 368968 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or one of us got disconnected when you were using newline as punctuation < 1513206636 477319 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) I still don't understand why a 64 bit long hash would allow a different construction and be fundamentally cheaper than any ordinary 256 bit hmac < 1513206651 523237 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm just delibeartely breaking text to multiple lines so that I don't get cut off < 1513206659 372009 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm typing slowly and thinking in between what to say < 1513206664 137748 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not adding sentence boundaries < 1513206674 278782 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1513206683 932237 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use newline as punctuation sometimes but normally I think of the rest of the sentence first < 1513206699 228587 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I write sentences ending with a conjunction to make it clear that I have more to add. < 1513206701 178681 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or press it by accident trying to hit backspace, that happens too < 1513206729 188819 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I should probably try to add sentence breaks instead. < 1513206751 466383 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, I still only get part of what this whole siphash thing is about. < 1513206790 50009 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if there are valid uses, it still seems to me like it's overhyped and overused and will bite some careless people in the back. < 1513206823 857030 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, crypto is always like that. Careless people will write bad code,. < 1513206835 500707 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happened to me too once. < 1513206956 111590 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: The 64-bit hash thing in SipHash is actually not what buys them *radically* better performance. < 1513206978 60765 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, that's what point (b) is about. < 1513207005 771904 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, what buys them better performance is they're trying to get properties out of the function that are much cheaper. < 1513207006 44593 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it have radically better performance if it's just a hmac that's a quarter as long as sha256-hmac, unless it is actually broken, < 1513207027 366683 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or has some sort of weaker guarantee besides being one quarter the size that I really don't understand. < 1513207051 871353 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They try to guarantee that, given hash(x, k), where x is the message and k is the key, you don't know anything about k, or anything about hash(y, k). < 1513207058 252720 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1513207059 292471 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's exactly my problem. I can't believe you can get free lunch by that. Something must be wrong about what they think. < 1513207083 69555 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA, and by extension HMAC-SHA, tries to guarantee that you cannot find x, y such that hash(x) == hash(y). < 1513207164 323592 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SipHash does not guarantee no collisions, it only guarantees you cannot discover the hash of something without knowing the key, and that you can't find the key. < 1513207191 857056 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But given the key, it seems it'd actually be rather easy to produce collisions. < 1513207199 854160 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: they try to guarantee a bit more about siphash. they try to guarantee that even if you can send x to query hash(x,k) from an adversary with a hidden k, you can know nothing about hash(y,k) for any y that you haven't sent in a query yet < 1513207217 163203 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I said. < 1513207225 682320 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you know hash(x, k) you can't know hash(y, k). < 1513207239 772946 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and I think if you guarantee that AND the hash is 256-bit long, not just 64 bits, then that implies that you can't find a collision < 1513207254 937225 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unclear on that. < 1513207260 677376 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1513207270 472048 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, maybe it only guarantees that you can't find a collision if you don't know k < 1513207272 639560 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's weaker < 1513207314 71762 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also really worth knowing the particular context that SipHash is intended for. < 1513207329 514318 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we have something in between the two, for signing messages with a hidden key where a birthday attack isn't a problem, but with a 128 bit hash? < 1513207348 875403 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what is the context? is it only to avoid hash table performance degradation? < 1513207366 917709 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main one is to avoid hash table performance degradation from active attackers. < 1513207372 437894 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1513207400 318438 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which explains its small output: larger output would buy you nothing, and cost you more to compute. < 1513207404 948606 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1513207455 171498 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: thanks < 1513207466 632561 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is the speed gain because of this weakened guarantee, where if you knew k you could break the hash, or is it not because of that, but only from the quarter size output? < 1513207486 105037 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because of both of those. < 1513207489 83912 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1513207537 417644 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably just be cautious because I don't understand the crypto enough, and just not use siphash directly , except possibly through the ready-made hash table libraries or programs. < 1513207558 451164 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as I don't need much performance, I can get away with using a slower hash function, like sha256 or sha3-256. < 1513207566 412074 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And a fast computer.) < 1513207568 998649 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weaker guarantee lets them use a much simpler compression function, but the smaller output and smaller state lets them have to work on less memory (which is faster) < 1513207589 54606 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the HMAC construction based on those two of course. < 1513207606 553860 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably wise. When choosing any algorithms, you really, really should know what you do and do not get from the algorithm. < 1513207619 565088 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially with ones that are somewhat new with less established wisdom on how to use them. < 1513207634 490534 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This difference between the guarantees, it's similar to what ais was explaining about crypto random sources, right? < 1513207643 255425 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so, yes. < 1513207667 577002 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, I know what I want to do, although there are several different things I want to do with different requirements. < 1513207669 750902 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloily < 1513207726 495759 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: wait, I thought I explained that several years ago and in #nethack4 < 1513207744 947540 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"was explaining" seems like an understatement < 1513207754 529907 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: possible, but you also explained that a few weeks ago here when I asked about them < 1513207756 305960 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the biggest screwups in crypto I've seen are from people not knowing WTF crypto algorithms do and do not buy them. < 1513207785 440235 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, unsurprisingly, when you assume a function guarantees something it doesn't, you have a bad time. < 1513207794 331519 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hmm, clearly my memory's getting less good < 1513207800 889963 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think back with nh4, I was only listening to the part where you replaced a clearly non-crypto rng with something that does some sort of crypto, but didn't look at the details < 1513207815 897861 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's possible that you explained more about it, but I forgot or wasn't listening < 1513207820 57942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NH4's RNG isn't cryptosecure in the normal sense (unlike AdeonRNG, which is) < 1513207828 368683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's missing one of the requirements, the other ones are the ones I cared about < 1513207842 722247 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that's what you explained here a few weeks ago < 1513207847 158391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1513207855 454980 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I just explain it in a couple of sentences each time the topic comes up < 1513207864 639612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than as a fully detailed discussion < 1513207882 413707 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely that for nh4, you don't need the requirement that if someone finds out about the current state of the rng, they can't guess anything about the previous values. < 1513207887 793489 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The previous outputs. < 1513207924 347652 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe that wasn't it exactly. < 1513207929 446064 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it was something about finding out the hidden key. < 1513208003 409368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, in NH4 knowledge of the internal state lets you predict previous outputs < 1513208015 453840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with any RNG, it allows you to predict future outputs, which is typically more useful < 1513208026 997752 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*PRNG < 1513208028 56691 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This came up in #esoteric when I asked about why there seem to be different sort of crypto random generators, and why some of them need a repeated source of outside entropy (I'm still not sure which ones do), < 1513208071 6492 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I also told about a specific requirement I wanted to solve and could solve with a crypto-RNG but wondered if there was a cheaper solution. < 1513208323 338046 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it seems an RNG with nethack's crypto requirements solves that, but nothing cheaper than that that we know of. < 1513208484 665938 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Btw, the new version of libtomcrypt has an SHA-2 implementation, which shows that the maintainer who took over actually does work on it more than just bugfixes. < 1513208508 937982 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is always encouraging when you consider which library you want to use. < 1513208519 382042 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if libtom might not be the best performance-wise. < 1513208564 285987 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With its decent documentation it might be a good choice when I don't need very high performance. < 1513208602 226599 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also this https://tls.mbed.org/ library recommended to me, which exports both crypto primitives, and an interface for ssl/tls. < 1513208605 155217 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems useful. < 1513208709 708376 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night soon. < 1513208837 40598 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcotmwoffiyz31.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1513208851 537157 :wob_jonas!b03f1901@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/SHA-2/SHA-3/ < 1513209092 546946 :augur_!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1513209326 415982 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIFGWe3KHXA google translate is my favorite vocaloid < 1513209446 358028 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric