←2017-11-29 2017-11-30 2017-12-01→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:06:24 <boily> fungot: do you eat mice?
00:06:25 <fungot> boily: i had actually forgotten about that. couldn't have been ' foo drops packets with any ecn flags set'. save it similarily to `circe-chat-target', since i expect to pick up
00:06:42 <boily> fungot: they are plentyful and tasty! in season! organic!
00:06:42 <fungot> boily: i think he's snoring from the room. the south of the border between generics and duck typing, interfaces are inherent in the system.
00:06:57 <boily> fungot: they don't snore, just being generally invasive.
00:06:58 <fungot> boily: pupeno. ( 1) plus the size of the current write-buffer into the read-buffer.
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02:38:25 <quintopia> got pea soup fog today
02:47:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53466&oldid=41060 * Wheatwizard * (-57) Portal 2 is not Turing complete
02:48:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53467&oldid=53465 * Wheatwizard * (-28) To be a Turing Tarpit a language must be Turing complete
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03:05:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Portal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53468 * Wheatwizard * (+826) Created page with "== Turing Completeness == Since I removed the [[Turing complete]] and [[Turing Tarpit]] tags, I figured I would include a proof that portal is not TC. === Proof of Turing In..."
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05:26:58 <zzo38> My own last-strike rules for Magic: the Gathering, which I had written before Unstable was announced, is a bit difference from the Unstable rules.
05:28:08 <zzo38> How would you have done it, though? And what card you will make up with last strike?
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10:40:40 <fizzie> After something like three months of keeping https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Captcha/help open in a tab on my phone, finally added some specific help text in there.
10:40:43 <fizzie> (Sadly only on the English localization; I'm not qualified to do most of the 67 other languages that message has been translated into.)
10:43:06 <ais523> you could do Finnish, I guess?
10:43:18 <fizzie> I could do Finnish, and I could probably muddle through Swedish.
10:44:09 <shachaf> "You will need to have cookies enabled in your browser for this to work."
10:44:26 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know what that means, TBH.
10:44:27 <shachaf> How come esolangs.org doesn't show an annoying popup when you visit it to inform you that it uses cookies?
10:44:36 <shachaf> Are you complying with all EU regulations?
10:44:55 <fizzie> Ohh, I think we probably should be showing that.
10:45:05 <fizzie> I've never looked into what the regulations exactly are.
10:45:17 <shachaf> Maybe it's just because of my US-based IP address.
10:46:05 <ais523> the regulations were basically intended to prevent people using cookies for all sorts of random tracking, by requiring sites to tell people about long-lived cookies and what they were used for
10:46:13 <ais523> but most sites decided just to publish a really long list rather than actually use fewer cookies
10:46:35 <fizzie> I don't think the warning is a stock MediaWiki feature. There's Extension:CookieWarning though.
10:47:03 <shachaf> Oh, some types of cookies are exempt.
10:47:32 <ais523> fizzie: http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm
10:48:04 <fizzie> Maybe the usual MediaWiki cookies are okay, then.
10:48:16 * ais523 looks at the cookies esolang.org has set
10:48:38 <ais523> UseDC and UseCDNCache are the main suspicious ones, why are those client-side?
10:48:46 <shachaf> Does Wikipedia show the warning for EU users?
10:49:16 <ais523> no, it doesn't, I just checked
10:49:20 <shachaf> Those sound like they fall under "used for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication"
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10:49:37 <fizzie> I've only got esolang_wikiUserID, esolang_wikiUserName and esolang_wiki_session set.
10:49:44 <ais523> some are moderately long lived, too
10:49:54 <ais523> fizzie: oh, some of mine might have been there from a much older login, I guess
10:50:09 <ais523> I suppose I'll clear my cookies for Esolang and log back in to see how many I get
10:50:29 <shachaf> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T110353
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10:51:06 <ais523> I have four: esolang_wiki_{_session,UserID,UserName,Token}
10:51:10 <ais523> those all seem reasonable
10:51:48 <fizzie> I wonder what Token is for, and why I don't have one.
10:51:55 <shachaf> Oh man, the esolangs.org front page is featuring a pretty good language.
10:52:05 <ais523> fizzie: apparently it implements the "remember me" functionality
10:52:09 <fizzie> Ah.
10:52:13 <ais523> maybe you didn't turn that on?
10:52:21 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm not logged in very often. :)
10:52:37 <ais523> shachaf: we just parked it on BF because it's a fairly safe language to put there and nobody was going through the motions of updating the page
10:52:53 <shachaf> I might use that as a starting point for my own esolang.
10:52:56 <fizzie> Incidentally, MediaWiki 1.29 (which I was thinking of upgrading to later today) changes the default cookie expiration from 180 days to 30 days, though "login cookies" (whatever they are) stay at 180.
10:52:58 <shachaf> Just need to change a few things around.
10:53:11 <fizzie> shachaf: You could replace the commands with humorous words.
10:56:07 <fizzie> ais523: By the way, since you're one of the wiki admins... a UK hosting company offered to sponsor us a free server on their cloud infrastructure. I mentioned we might do a "tasteful, unostentatious" link to them from somewhere on the page, and they said they'd appreciate it, but it's not mandatory. Any concerns about that?
10:56:12 <fizzie> (We're already doing one to MediaWiki in the bottom header, I think it's in the same category of things.)
10:56:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Userlogin-remembermypassword]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53469 * Ais523 * (+38) there's some debate about whether this option falls afoul of EU cookie law; let's give people informed consent about how it works, just in case
10:57:12 <ais523> I'm not concerned about that, so long as it's factual (e.g. "hosted by {company name/logo}")
10:57:41 <ais523> it's equivalent to the "powered by mediawiki" logo, IMO
10:57:57 <fizzie> That's what I thought too.
10:58:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Remembermypassword]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53470 * Ais523 * (+98) I can't figure out where this message is even used, but mentioning cookies in it too just in case
10:59:14 <ais523> meanwhile, does this channel have any opinions on the recent ridiculous OS X security bug?
10:59:17 <shachaf> Did you end up buying a house by the power station?
10:59:23 <shachaf> Was that you?
10:59:47 <shachaf> It's a pretty good bug.
11:00:10 <Taneb> ais523: I'm just wondering how it could possibly have come about
11:00:27 <Taneb> Did they just have root with an empty password by default?
11:00:38 <ais523> Taneb: no, it's better than that
11:00:51 <ais523> basically, they have code for upgrading password hashes from old hashing algorithms to newer ones on login, which is fair enough
11:01:08 <ais523> but if the account is disabled, the code that verifies the old password errors out and the upgrade code doesn't actually check the error
11:01:16 <shachaf> Aha, that's why it required two attempts.
11:01:29 <ais523> (errors out while /fetching/ the old account data, not while /verifying/ it)
11:01:41 <ais523> so it goes ahead and sets the password on the account to whatever you entered anyway
11:01:53 <Taneb> Wow
11:01:57 <Taneb> That's quite something
11:02:25 <ais523> if the account exists but you entered the wrong password, the fetch succeeds but the hatches don't match, and they actually did check the error there
11:03:02 <shachaf> What can be done about error checking?
11:03:23 <shachaf> It's a cumbersome and verbose part of a lot of boring code.
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11:03:35 <shachaf> Exceptions don't seem like a great answer.
11:03:39 <Taneb> shachaf: not having errors
11:04:08 <ais523> Rust's solution of outputting enums that have to be unpacked to get at the return value is a decent one, IMO
11:04:19 <ais523> (if the function errors out, it outputs a different enum tag so you can't unpack it to the return valuae)
11:04:25 <b_jonas> "<ais523> I'm not concerned about that, so long as it's factual (e.g. "hosted by {company name/logo}")" => could it say "hosting generously provided by {company name with link}"?
11:04:31 <ais523> that at least forces you to write the error handling code
11:04:36 <b_jonas> as in, to show that they've donated hosting for free
11:04:51 <ais523> b_jonas: "hosting provided by" would be OK, I think; filling it with adjectives doesn't fill me with confidence
11:05:38 <shachaf> There are at least two issues. One is that you can just forget to check the error. That can be managed with a fancier type system or these enums or something else.
11:06:09 <shachaf> The other is that the error handling code is so verbose and boring that no one wants to write it in the first place.
11:06:13 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. how about "hosting donated by {company name with link}"?
11:06:19 <shachaf> I suppose Rust has some macros for handling the common case.
11:06:35 <ais523> b_jonas: that works too
11:06:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not that noone wants to write it, but that noone wants to read it once it's written
11:07:05 <shachaf> Sure, I'm talking about the code existing, not just how it gets written.
11:07:23 <ais523> shachaf: with a library I'm writing at the moment, the design is such that all errors indicate an actual problem in your own code (not in the surrounding environment), and thus you can safely handle them by, e.g., abort()
11:07:36 <ais523> (and there'll be a wrapper generator that automatically handles all errors in a way of your choice)
11:08:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: and I think there's a problem with the attitude how some programming people (especially the rust ones) try to encourage beginners to learn how to do full error propagation even in throwaway code, when in most code you could get away with just aborting with a stack trace on almost any error,
11:08:18 <ais523> error conditions in the surrounding environment are treated as a special form of user input
11:08:18 <shachaf> There are several languages that make a distinction between errors and panics.
11:08:32 <ais523> that said, this probably is heavily dependent on the fact that it's a UI library
11:09:25 <b_jonas> also the problem when sometimes people want to handle just one type of error, but they don't handle that one early and propagate it correctly, and so they end up with catching all errors and trying to continue the program from wedge state after other unrelated errors
11:09:49 <b_jonas> which is sort of the opposite problem
11:09:49 <ais523> I've had to shout at people before now for just swallowing exceptions
11:09:52 <ais523> in Java
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11:10:20 <b_jonas> since they already know that most code doesn't have to propagate errors properly, they don't even know how to propagate that one important error that they do have to recover from
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11:10:29 <b_jonas> I know these are two opposite lessons, so it's hard to learn both
11:10:30 <ais523> the correct treatment, IMO, is to rethrow (or just not catch, if the language lets you) if it's unexpected or if it's fatal, and handle if it's something that could plausibly happen and can plausibly be fixed
11:11:09 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but also catch the one error you care about as early as possible, not just catch in the outer loop and restart
11:11:22 <ais523> right
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11:11:57 <ais523> that said, there's quite a lot of catch(Throwable) in the code I'm working on at work, but then it has reason to violate a huge number of best practices because it's very low-level code
11:12:21 <b_jonas> And I often complain about how people use multi-threading unnecessarily, or multi-threading in the wrong place, and when they do so, that often makes error handling harder.
11:12:47 <shachaf> Is there an esolang where all control flow is based on exceptions?
11:13:22 <Taneb> That sounds like it would be exceptional
11:13:22 <ais523> I'm fairly sure there is, I can't remember what it's called though
11:13:49 <shachaf> Haneb
11:13:57 <shachaf> Seen any exceptionala cats lately?
11:14:12 <Taneb> No but I think I saw a baby deer last night
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11:14:41 <Taneb> I regret not stopping to take a photo, it was standing in a stream on my cycle home from work
11:14:43 <b_jonas> Also, apparently after rust get the namespacing system almost right, people don't like the few small problems it has, and are trying to replace the whole thing with something completely new and much worse and depreciate the old one. that bothers me.
11:14:50 <shachaf> Is that uncommon in your part of the world?
11:15:01 <b_jonas> (That's unrelated to error handling.)
11:15:12 <b_jonas> Taneb: what type of deer?
11:15:32 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/slistp appears to have exceptions as a major part of its control flow
11:18:20 <Taneb> b_jonas: I don't know, it was quite dark and I didn't get a long look
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11:18:33 <Taneb> It may have been a cow calf, but that's really just as surprising
11:19:14 <fizzie> Richmond Park is full of deer herds.
11:19:29 <fizzie> There's always lots of people taking pictures of them too.
11:19:44 <shachaf> I live near Richmond but I've never been.
11:19:54 <shachaf> I might be going there next week, though.
11:21:27 <Taneb> This is about where I was: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.1935737,0.1597291,242m/data=!3m1!1e3
11:22:36 <shachaf> Is there an esolang based on economic concepts?
11:26:57 <ais523> there's at least one thematic one that talks about discounts on goods, but I think it's just a syntax substitution?
11:27:00 <ais523> I'm not aware of any actually good ones
11:31:06 <ais523> shachaf: looks like slistp is the most exception-based language, in the sense of C++/Java-like exceptions
11:32:02 <ais523> there are languages like Incident whose regular control flow isn't Turing-complete and they need to rely on exceptional conditions to gain their computational power, but they aren't exceptions in the normal sense
11:35:59 <Taneb> How far can you get with just function calls, throw, try/catch, and like maybe print
11:41:16 <int-e> Taneb: what kind of state would you have?
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13:45:04 <zseri> I implemented a sematic checker in ZXTW (to check the function argument count), which runs before the vm execution.
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15:22:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53471&oldid=49687 * Fizzie * (+0) Post-upgrade edit test for 1.29.2.
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17:07:22 <b_jonas> M:tG has 13 different basic cards now, right?
17:08:43 <b_jonas> Basic lands of the five basic land types, snow basic lands of the five basic land types, Wastes, Relentless Rats, and Shadowborn Apostle.
17:10:36 <Cale> Those last two don't have the Basic supertype, but have an equivalent condition with regard to deck building.
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17:14:53 <zzo38> There are eleven basic lands in Magic: the Gatering. The ones that aren't lands aren't basic either.
17:15:08 <zzo38> I am calling the first five "conventional basic lands".
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17:23:25 <Cale> Also sort of weird is that Wastes, despite being both Basic and a Land, is not a basic land type, and has no basic land type.
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17:37:32 <zzo38> And has errata at the time of printing. I think they shouldn't do that; the text should be printed on the card.
17:45:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think that's errata. It just has the rules text not printed on it, the same way as https://magiccards.info/mprp/en/25.html (which I have) doesn't have the text printed on.
17:47:14 <zzo38> O, OK
17:48:02 <zzo38> (I still don't like it though)
17:59:34 <Cale> They should print a textless version of every card, so that people can play the most confusing version of M:tG ever.
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18:13:10 <b_jonas> Cale: people can already do that by (1) using cards in languages that the players don't understand, although for some older cards this can be impossible because they're only printed in English, (2) bad homemade proxies
18:13:39 <zzo38> If you like to play the confusing game, play the version where instead of using the actual card you have to use a different card with the same mana cost but is not a card you actually have. That is a game variant
18:14:17 <b_jonas> I have seen people test some standard (several years ago) deck with unmarked proxies, where only the players know which cheap card stands for which expensive card, so as an onlooker it was very confusing to me
18:14:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: you mean like Richard Garfield, Ph.D. ?
18:14:47 <b_jonas> `card-by-name richard garf
18:14:52 <HackEgo> Richard Garfield, Ph.D. \ 3UU \ Legendary Creature -- Human Designer \ 2/2 \ You may play cards as though they were other Magic cards of your choice with the same mana cost. (Mana cost includes color.) You can't choose the same card twice. \ UNH-R
18:15:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, do you mean I can only play cards that I don't actually have? how would the other players verify that? would they have to check my entire collection to see that I don't have the card?
18:16:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: No; I only mean that is not the card being used in the game right now.
18:16:18 <b_jonas> I mean, I have most of my cards neatly sorted in boxes so I can find them reasonably quickly, but still
18:16:21 <b_jonas> ah
18:16:22 <b_jonas> that's much better
18:16:38 <zzo38> Yes, but making that effect a game rule variant rather than a permanent. (I think it was a game variant before the Unhinged card, actually)
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18:18:20 <b_jonas> you'd need to buy a lot of {0} cost cards for that variant.
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18:19:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: in that variant, when I cast a card with morph face down, do I have to announce that it's Disruptive Pitmage? or do I write that in a piece of paper under the card?
18:20:06 <zzo38> I don't know.
18:20:19 <zzo38> I have read it somewhere but do not remember the rules or even if they had complete rules.
18:20:20 <b_jonas> I guess you'd write it in a paper and slip it under
18:20:47 <b_jonas> there would probably have to be limits on what you can play
18:20:57 <int-e> `card-by-name blacker lotus
18:20:58 <HackEgo> Blacker Lotus \ 0 \ Artifact \ {T}: Tear Blacker Lotus into pieces. Add four mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability as a mana source. Remove the pieces from the game afterwards. \ UG-R
18:21:29 <b_jonas> otherwise you'd have to buy playsets of like five {0} cost artifacts for your deck this to play as black lotuses
18:21:48 <zzo38> Blackererererest Lotus {0} Artifact ;; {T}, Burn ~ to ashes, Burn yourself to ashes: Add 17 mana of any single color into your mana pool.
18:24:01 <int-e> does the action of removing the pieces go on the stack? my m:tg grammar is rusty.
18:24:17 <zzo38> Mana abilities don't use the stack.
18:24:21 <b_jonas> int-e: no.
18:25:04 <zzo38> (But, if it says "target" then it is not a mana ability.)
18:25:34 <b_jonas> besides, the tearing part would certainly be part of the cost in modern oracle updates
18:26:02 <b_jonas> we should probably play old un-cards as if their oracle text were updated to modern rules
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18:26:29 <int-e> oh I read the tearing up as a cost, just the cleanup, would be fun to stifle that ;)
18:27:55 <b_jonas> int-e: oh, you mean the removing the pieces from the game
18:28:04 <b_jonas> I wonder if that might be possible to replace somehow
18:28:12 <b_jonas> let me search
18:31:12 <b_jonas> I mean, replace it with anything other than removing it from the game
18:31:35 <b_jonas> there are ways to replace it with another effect removing it from the game
18:33:10 <b_jonas> I think you can replace it if you make a commander a copy of Black Lotus.
18:33:54 <b_jonas> ``` grep "^903\.9\." share/mtg/rules.txt
18:33:54 <HackEgo> 903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.
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18:37:28 <b_jonas> Although then you'd have a host of problems, because per 108.2. the pieces might not even count as a card (in terms of comp rules) or an object
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18:39:07 <zzo38> Yes. But that is to be expected if you are playing Un-cards.
18:39:15 <b_jonas> sure
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19:00:38 <zzo38> I made up a new rule for languages in GURPS, which is only applicable if your character can read and write Chinese. (This enables Xing La to save a few points.)
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19:05:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53472&oldid=53244 * CANICVS * (+84) Added link to implementation
19:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainCube]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53473&oldid=53472 * CANICVS * (+35)
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22:13:11 <boily> `5 w
22:13:19 <HackEgo> 1/2:amphiboily//Amphiboily is Franglish grammatical hambiguity, rewarded with a mapole. \ compiler//A compiler (lit. “with-piler”) is one who builds piles together with someone else. \ whom//See: who \ `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/>. It is a builtin command so ca
22:13:19 <boily> `n
22:13:20 <HackEgo> 2/2:nnot be called from other commands. \ mtg//MTG is short for Money Tapping Game.
22:13:49 <boily> mtg is disturbingly accurate.
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22:40:33 <int-e> hmm, the problem in click&point adventures is almost always the same... being stuck on a missed pixel
22:42:59 <shachaf> int-e: I like the feature where you press Tab and it highlights all the clickable objects on screen.
22:43:29 <shachaf> Ah, that was in Thimbleweed Park, now I remember.
22:48:45 <int-e> yeah many recent adventure games have such a feature (often using shift or control)
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23:45:12 <esowiki> [[User:Fizzie]] M https://staging.esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53474&oldid=53471 * Fizzie * (+48) Test non-HackEgo wiki2irc gateway.
23:45:50 <fizzie> (Oh, don't try to follow the https:// link, there's no TLS on that host.)
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