00:01:56 <ais523> I'm tempted to just link you to Fractran again :-P
00:02:52 <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies)
00:05:58 <imode> right, but fractran isn't quite like what I'm thinking.
00:06:09 <imode> it's not that equivalent.
00:09:20 <imode> well, fractran's state is a single number, while a multiset rewriting system's state is, well, a multiset.
00:09:26 <imode> it's very different.
00:09:27 <myname> abc -> def perfectly translates to 7*11*13/1*3*5
00:09:46 <ais523> imode: convert it to a prime factorisation
00:09:55 <ais523> the fact that you can treat that as a single number is mostly just coincidence
00:10:15 <ais523> actual fractran programming uses the multiset view pretty much all the time
00:10:20 <imode> so you're just choosing primes as the alphabet.
00:10:41 <imode> alright, I can see that. creative.
00:10:51 <imode> leibniz would be proud.
00:12:40 <quintopia> generalized collatz functions are p cool guys. they golf well and dont afraid of any computable n7mber
00:13:15 <imode> that however lends itself to larger and larger numbers which is rather inconvenient.
00:13:37 <imode> but that's really simple, actually.
00:14:01 <shachaf> ais523: whoa, I didn't know order wasn't required for Fractran
00:14:34 <imode> I can see why it doesn't, because prime factorization's order doesn't matter, and that naturally maps to a multiset.
00:14:58 <shachaf> I mean the order of instructions.
00:15:12 <ais523> shachaf: it's required by the spec, but you can change that part of the spec and it still works
00:15:14 <shachaf> Or whatever those are called. Fractions.
00:16:01 <ais523> I tend to program fractran and thue the same way, i.e. so that the order of evaluation is irrelevant to the program
00:16:22 <ais523> fractran is actually probably a more convenient language, thue has bad wire-crossing-like problems
00:16:31 <ais523> in that trying to get data from one end of the program to the other is a pain
00:16:36 <ais523> you can do it, just normally need a huge number of cases
00:16:53 <shachaf> Since when do people talk about esolangs in here?
00:17:43 <imode> ais523: yeah that was my initial gripe. because ordering mattered you're essentially constructing a 1D CA with an arbitrary neighborhood.
00:17:50 <imode> hard to program in.
00:18:15 <ais523> shachaf: it's more likely when I'm in here (admittedly, not /much/ more likely, and in this case imode started it)
00:18:20 <ais523> I like ontopic discussion though
00:18:25 <imode> whereas an unordered set (or in this case, an unordered multiset) is more convenient.
00:18:56 <imode> it's not hard to take a unary representation of a number and double it for example, but in thue the representation becomes unwieldy.
00:19:53 <ais523> actually in thue that's pretty easy if you have a marker at each end
00:19:59 <ais523> just run a cursor along the number
00:20:21 <ais523> and get the markers at each end to handle the cursor appropriately (they'll need to do something to fit this into your program's control flow)
00:26:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristica_universalis leibniz and godel have something in common, in that they fetishized about primes and their properties for uniqueness. :P
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00:29:42 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA, his523, imellode, mynamello, helloochaf.
00:29:58 <imode> boily: is there a bot capable of that in here?
00:30:18 <ais523> I don't see what benefit a bot woudl have
00:30:29 <ais523> although hackego is capable of just about anything as long as the output's a function of the input
00:30:54 <imode> automation is what keeps bored minds busy. :P
00:31:16 <boily> automating porthelloes isn't trivial.
00:34:17 <quintopia> its almost like correctly conjugating present tense verbs and deciding when to use an article on a noun simultaneously
00:35:05 <quintopia> boily has tried to describe his porthello algorithm and it mostly comes out "however sounds good to me"
00:35:19 <boily> something like that.
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00:41:29 <ais523> the algorithm only seems unclear in cases where the original word doesn't have exactly one "o" pronounced as such
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01:46:39 <oerjan> <ais523> and was accidentally rediscovered by oerjan as a rewriting-like system before he discovered it already existed <-- no, that's a misunderstanding, i had definitely heard of the fraction version (from the math institute's encyclopedia iirc) - i just had no idea what it was _called_.
01:47:01 <ais523> so you called it something else
01:47:21 <oerjan> and included a symbolic format
01:50:16 <oerjan> <ais523> (note that evaulation order in Fractran doesn't matter for TCness; you can write programs so that only one rule at a time ever applies) <-- istr we found out that was false at some point.
01:51:05 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, now you mention it, perhaps I misremembered
01:51:24 <ais523> in which case I've been spreading misinformation
01:51:34 <ais523> (very slowly, on and off over the last several years)
01:51:49 <ais523> the problem being that you can't prove, without some evaluation order restriction, that a particular element /isn't/ contained
01:52:45 <shachaf> whoa, just when I thought I was informed.
01:54:31 <ais523> this is one of those proofs that you can remember how it works when you're reminded it exists, but be implicitly certain with no evidence that the opposite is true the rest of the time
01:57:04 <ais523> I guess it's because I think of the problem as being control flow (which is trivially fixed), not detecting zero
01:57:41 <oerjan> i don't remember 100% how the proof went
01:59:35 <ais523> if a fraction can run at p**0 (* other factors) it can also run at p**n (* the same other factors) for higher n; this means that you can't set a value to 0 without already having a defined maximum value for it
01:59:42 <ais523> that's not the full proof but it's the basic argument
01:59:47 <ais523> and everthing else was just details from there
02:01:52 <oerjan> something like, if there's a non-halting computation then it must at some point produce a number divisible by a previous one.
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02:02:40 <oerjan> and then _everything_ divisible by the previous one can avoid halting
02:05:21 <oerjan> but there's something like a compactness argument hiding in the details, i smell
02:07:04 <oerjan> or perhaps it was linear algebra.
02:12:42 <oerjan> hm i vaguely thought there _was_ a porthello command. btwohily.
02:12:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ello: not found
02:13:12 <HackEgo> 8ball \ 8-ball \ 8ball \ allquotes \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ llist \ roll \ tell \ wellcome \ willkommen
02:14:06 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8ball
02:14:35 <oerjan> `` ls -l bin/8* | cat -v
02:14:36 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 39 Oct 28 2016 bin/8-ball \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 10 Feb 10 2017 bin/8^Oball
02:15:36 <ais523> why is there a literal control-O in the name of that file?
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02:16:51 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball/8ball "$@"
02:16:51 <HackEgo> usage: mk[x] file//contents
02:16:58 <oerjan> `mkx bin/8-ball//8ball "$@"
02:17:43 <oerjan> (i prefer that way of avoiding duplication because links have been known to break)
02:18:47 <HackEgo> autowelcome \ delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ elcome \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ relcome \ reload \ rwelcome \ tell \ velcome \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welcome \ welcome \ Welcome \ welcöme \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:01 <oerjan> `` cd bin; ls *el* | grep -v elc
02:19:02 <HackEgo> delquote \ delvs \ dontaskdonttelllist \ don'taskdon'ttelllist \ hello \ hello-world-in-any-language \ help \ makelist \ makelistlist \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ reload \ tell \ velkomin \ velkommen \ welkom \ wellcome
02:19:25 <oerjan> oh well i guess that was about all
02:19:56 <HackEgo> airport \ airport-lookup \ joustreport \ sport
02:20:00 <ais523> that's probably what you're remembering
02:20:19 <oerjan> no, i recall something doing a more advanced attempt
02:22:34 <shachaf> oerjan: having been pranked, you've joined the ranks of the pranksters? tdh
02:43:33 <ais523> eso idea: int : float :: interface : floaterface, now we just need to work out what a floaterface is
02:43:35 <imode> huh. so multiset rewriting is essentially just doing register machine operations..
02:45:35 <ais523> I guess a floaterface is mostly a generalization of an interface (can represent any interface as long as it's not too large), but also can represent partial interfaces, and becomes approximate in some cases?
02:47:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to related interfaces to integers
02:47:56 <shachaf> I don't think interfaces are usually totally ordered
02:48:02 <shachaf> That could be interesting in itself
02:50:27 <doesthiswork> I just watched a youtube video without adblock on. There are "buy now" advertisements directly beneath the video now
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02:56:42 <oerjan> . o O ( interface Foo extends NaN )
03:01:53 <oerjan> doesthiswork: that's just one kind of ad youtube uses. afair it only does that when there isn't a full video ad.
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03:07:53 <shachaf> Taneb: please write welcome.it twh
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09:56:45 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:23:04 <^v> i've mastered SKI calc
21:23:30 <^v> it's time to transcend existence into the esoteric realm
21:24:00 <myname> huh? is ski conscidered hard in any way?
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21:29:20 <^v> myname, succ = S(K(S(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(S(S(K(S))(S(K(S(K(S))))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K(S))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K)))))(S(K(K))(S(K)(K))))))(K(K(S(K)(K)))))
21:29:28 <^v> all this does is take a church number and add 1
21:30:28 <^v> its complicated af
21:30:57 <myname> i mean, yeah, i couldn't write it out freely, but conversion from and to lambda calculus is pretty easy
21:31:24 <^v> yeah i'm making my language convert lambda calc to SKI
21:33:44 <^v> if the existing output wasnt already horrendous
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23:09:30 <int-e> that seems overly complicated, hmm
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23:23:41 <int-e> ^v: how about S (S (K S) K)
23:24:28 <int-e> (which is much smaller than I expected, yay)
23:24:36 <Guest95245> Converting lambda to SKI is trivial, though the hard part is finding an expression that's short
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