00:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in). 00:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:05:14 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 00:10:26 -!- jaboja has joined. 00:14:46 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:18:38 fizzie: fizziello. the fungot has left :( 00:24:29 `5 w 00:24:35 1/2:betty crocker//Betty Crocker is a notorious gambler. \ manglophobia//Manglophobia is the fear of horribly mangled "Greek" neologisms. \ nth//nth is not that helpful \ s//Esses are confusing. \ ocean//The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. Th 00:25:24 `n 00:25:25 2/2:e Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping. 00:25:26 -!- imode has joined. 00:37:14 [wiki] [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53158&oldid=52440 * Challenger5 * (+0) 01:01:14 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:09:43 [wiki] [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53159&oldid=52467 * Challenger5 * (+762) 01:31:40 -!- fungot has joined. 01:42:21 * boily waves at fungot 01:42:21 boily: dromiceiomimus, i have a great idea, dromiceiomimus: stories for women 01:48:07 Our internet left. (And then came back.) 01:48:16 `? 01:48:18 ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:48:24 `quote 01:48:25 834) elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. okay well that is called not linux 01:55:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CAUGHT CHICKEN). 02:11:02 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 02:44:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:51:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:06:42 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: bye). 03:37:28 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:55:33 -!- fungot has joined. 04:32:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:16:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:48:49 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 06:07:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:42:11 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:16:01 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:26:21 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:54:20 -!- zseri has joined. 08:46:47 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 09:10:58 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:18:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:24:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:33:06 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:18:16 -!- sleffy has joined. 10:24:34 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:34:15 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:46:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:49:09 -!- tromp has joined. 11:30:07 Stupid thought: Windows renamed the Explorer program to File Explorer between Windows 7 and Windows 10, presumably because "Explorer" was too confusing: http://pbfcomics.com/comics/cave-explorer/ 11:34:26 -!- boily has joined. 11:49:28 https://www.xkcd.com/1897/ - they could outsource driving to twitch chat 11:50:32 also, I brought up this point about gamifying the AI task we want to solve for a work project, but my supervisor said no. 11:55:27 b_jonas: you mean like twitch plays pokemon? 11:55:27 heh 11:55:53 Vorpal: yes 11:56:50 well, it's possible that twitch chat isn't the best format for getting the driving input, but it could still be turned to a game through internet and twitch would popularize the game 11:57:35 twitch usually has a higher latency than you could get if you made a game that only people with a good enough net connection could play (or at least only people with a good net connection would give input that actually matters for driving the car) 12:15:22 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SHED CHICKEN). 12:26:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:30:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:06:37 -!- erkin has joined. 13:11:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:31:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:50:19 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:00:48 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:20:27 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:43:31 -!- `^_^v has joined. 15:01:08 `ftoc 140 15:01:09 140.00°F = 60.00°C 15:26:52 -!- zseri has joined. 15:27:30 Apparently there was a mass shooting with over 50 people dead yesterday in Las Vegas. 15:27:47 no wait, not in Last Vegas, but somewher else in Nevada 15:28:01 close 15:49:53 hehe. http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gzip/gzip-1.8.tar.xz 15:54:27 int-e: they also have a tar.gz at the same place 15:54:30 for the same version 15:55:19 I know. 15:55:41 Which is also funny but in a different way. 15:56:15 you'd think they'd have uncompressed source 15:56:20 given the purpose of gzip 15:56:48 this reminds me of the time I wrote a version of uudecode using only printable characters… 15:57:21 (more specifically, I wrote an encoder similar to uuencode that produced executables as output; you could run this on uudecode itself in order to get uudecode onto a system that didn't have it) 15:57:25 ais523: yeah, but on the other hand, you also can't bootstrap building a shell without having a shell, and can't build a C compiler if you don't have a C compiler, and compared to either of those, gzip is much more well spread 15:57:43 -!- danil has joined. 15:58:02 b_jonas: C compilers should be provided as executables for that reason (and commonly are) 15:58:13 in addition to the source form 15:58:18 ais523: also, zlib is likely literally the software that's installed in the most places, and it's not that hard to write gzip from libc; 15:58:22 s/libc/zlib/ 15:58:41 building a shell with no shell could be tricky, perhaps you could do it via repeatedly rebooting the system and setting the compiler, linker, etc. as init 15:58:47 plus there's also a very portable gzip decompressor at https://pts.50.hu/muzcat-mini-latest.tar.gz 15:59:01 which is much more limited and slower than gzip, but still works 15:59:15 (note that this is pretty much just theoretical; you're unlikely to have a working compiler and linker but no working shell) 15:59:18 and you're most likely to have a decompressor that understands gzip than a program that understands that version of tar too 15:59:26 ais523: that's not TRUE 15:59:44 ais523: people have problems with building very portable programs on windows because it's hard to find a suitable shell to run the build scripts 15:59:53 this is for C programs that are very portable so they're easy to build 15:59:55 seriously 15:59:57 Windows has a working shell, though (two, in fact) 16:00:08 it's just that the programs in question have build scripts written for a different dialect of shellscript 16:00:10 you also need a gnu make, but gnu make provides a shell script to build itself without needing any make first 16:00:25 ais523: yes, that's why I say a posix-like shell 16:00:28 whatcha talking about? 16:00:30 besides you could probably just build it with aimake 16:00:32 not specifically bash, but nothing windows-like 16:00:43 danil: trying to build build tools without having the build tool itself in advance 16:01:05 complicated 16:01:35 what I don't like is how 7-zip now only distributes the latest versions of its source code in 7-zip and self-extracting 7-zip formats, and the self-extracting part runs only on windows (you can extract it with a 7zip program anywhere), 16:01:36 I guess an OS missing build tools is something of an esolang in its own right 16:01:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 16:01:42 it has commands but not the ones you actually wanted 16:01:53 despite that the source code has the command-line version that works on unices too 16:02:02 at least 7zip works 16:02:05 in previous versions, they used to distribute the source code as bzip2 16:02:14 or as zip or something 16:02:25 I assume Debian still distributes it as xz or something? 16:02:40 ais523: probably something like that, I don't know how they compress their programs 16:02:48 RAR and other zip utilities understand 7zip format 16:02:50 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:03:24 also, if anyone wants, I can give you all parts of 7-zip packed in whatever reasonable format you want 16:03:33 I actually have zip versions of some of what they distrubute 16:03:43 what about unreasonable formats? 16:04:00 those are the windows executables, I keep them just in case 16:04:08 they should distribute the source code in zip format 16:04:44 clearly it should be distributed as an uncompressed shar 16:04:45 ais523: I can provide some unreasonable formats too, but not just any unreasonable format 16:04:46 that was reasonable once 16:04:51 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 16:04:55 and I'm pretty sure I used it for something as a joke at one point, possibly C-INTERCAL 16:05:11 oh, hmm, maybe I posted a new version of C-INTERCAL to Usenet directly for tradition's sake? 16:05:19 it's the sort of thing I'd do 16:05:36 -!- danil has joined. 16:06:11 7ZIP works on my Ubuntu. 16:07:11 BTW, whats a 'hypercide' 16:07:33 Sorry, BTW whats a 'hypercube' 16:07:35 danil: yes, that's p7zip, 7zip's own command-line port to linux, which works almost the same as their windows command-line version 16:07:44 works more or less decently but with a horrible user interface 16:07:52 danil: a hypercube is a 4 (or more)-dimensional generalization of a cube 16:07:52 developped by the 7-zip devs themselves 16:07:58 `? hypercube 16:07:59 hypercube? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:08:12 you can think of a cube as being two squares, with corresponding corners connected 16:08:25 that's fairly easy to visualise because humans are used to both 2D and 3D 16:08:34 'Welcome to the international hyper cube for esoteric languages' 16:08:37 but the two squares are in separate 2D planes 16:08:57 oh, I was wrong! 16:09:10 so a hypercube is that a dimension higher up; you get two 3D cubes in separate 3D spaces (think parallel universes or the like), and then connect all the corners 16:09:13 they provide the source code of the unix command-line version at least as bz2 16:09:16 err, corresponding corners 16:09:19 also the channel topic here is rarely serious 16:09:24 it's only the windows version that they only provide as 7zip and msi currently 16:09:27 I think someone wrote "hypercube" rather than "IRC channel" as a joke 16:09:33 OK, this is NOT a geometry IRC channel! 16:09:50 they should provide the standalone windows command-line version as a zip, so you can easily use it without admin privilages 16:09:53 but still 16:09:54 it's not as bad as I thought 16:09:54 No one understands IRC jokes. 16:09:56 the standard topic is something along the lines of "welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment" 16:10:29 but people have a tendency to change it due to messing around and not enough people are inclined to change it back 16:10:41 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 16:10:51 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 16:10:52 actually, better 16:10:56 ais523: it seems like 7-zip is careful, they made sure the source code for the unix command-line version is written in C (not C++) and all source files have 8.3 filenames, so I can provide it in quite a few unreasonable formats of old dos compressor programs nobody even remembers anymore 16:11:05 what's 7zip got to do with build tools. 7zip's a decompressor 16:11:05 I don't think we've had this one before and it's actually /more/ precise than the usual topic 16:11:21 danil: if the source code you're trying to build is in .7z format 16:11:24 like, say, 7zip's is 16:11:38 Oh... 16:12:05 ais523: I would like to note that xz actually distributes pre-built DOS binaries though 16:12:10 I never actually looked at 7zips source code 16:12:27 b_jonas: neat 16:12:31 danil: this channel can drift to off-topic sometimes 16:12:32 how much demand is there for DOS binaries of NetHack, btw? 16:12:43 our current DOS maintainer has disappeared and I'm wondering if I should try to take over 16:12:47 b_jonas: WOW! 16:13:10 whatz nethack? 16:13:11 but yes, I stayed away from this channel for months because I disliked how offtopic it had gotten 16:13:16 ais523: I don't know. I have a custom DOS binary for the joe-editor that I can distribute. It's not perfect, but I used it for text editing a lot. 16:13:18 danil: computer game, famous for being old and portable 16:13:32 ais523: it's famous for being portable? I didn't know of that 16:13:45 b_jonas: well it runs on a huge number of platforms, especially if you take older versions 16:13:46 ais523: I dont understand computer games 16:14:04 people who have an old computer with an unusual OS and want to play a game on it often send us questions about what version they can run on it 16:14:19 I thought old programs from back then just (a) had to do that out of necessity, and (b) are automatically portable because everyone implements the few thousand functions those old programs used from the old BSD libc or whatever, including crazy ones like index. 16:14:22 danil: they're basically a way to practice skills in a controlled environment, while having fun 16:14:46 ais523: wait, they often send you (as in the devteam) questions, really? 16:14:48 some games train skills like reaction time and coordination, others about more mental skills like planning andp uzzle solving 16:15:02 if they do, then yes, it is notable for being portable 16:15:17 I mean, i dont put my head into the games.(And in the cloud) 16:15:19 b_jonas: yes, one of our most common sorts of email (that isn't a bug report) is "can you recommend a version of NetHack that I can play on my «insert old computer system here»?" 16:15:41 Are you a NetHack dev? 16:15:43 ais523: I guess that could be true, after all, someone wondered about a port to that old nokia personal organizer 16:15:49 danil: yes 16:16:21 How is that linked with esoteric programming languages? 16:17:06 danil: porting programs to old systems is an eso-programming topic already, but this channel often drifts off-topic too 16:17:11 well, the release of NetHack 3.6.0 only came about as a consequence of the existence of INTERCAL 16:17:14 but that's mostly just coincidence 16:17:27 Yep. This channel gets offtopic all the time 16:18:02 and it was a fairly long dependency chain (although still a clear one that's possible to trace) 16:18:03 the esoteric title changed! 16:18:19 yep 16:18:32 those things are fairly easy to change 16:18:41 Did you change it? 16:18:44 yes 16:18:53 Thanks. 16:18:58 danil: also, if you look at nethack's source code in detail, you'll see it looks sort of like eso-programming now, even though the practices it uses made sense back when it was developped, and it's a lot of work to rewrite it. 16:19:03 it'll probably be changed to something else by tomorrow, though, knowing this channel 16:19:20 b_jonas: IMO it'd be great if the game itself were Turing-complete, but I'm fairly sure it isn't 16:19:21 tempting. 16:19:35 Oh, hi int-e! 16:19:53 fungot: say something? 16:19:53 int-e: you look: poorly drawn 16:20:01 fungot: thanks so much 16:20:01 int-e: a new day dawns... 16:20:11 ^style 16:20:11 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz* sms speeches ss wp youtube 16:20:20 fungot is a bot written in Befunge 16:20:20 ais523: all that means is that if a building? it is the east, and plagiarism is 16:20:42 it has a few functions, one of the main ones is trying and failing to say something intelligible in response to people mentioning its name 16:20:44 fungot: say your source code out loud 16:20:44 danil: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. 16:20:58 ^source 16:20:58 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 16:21:13 ^source 16:21:13 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 16:21:17 danil: fungot doesn't actually know English, so you have to express it in a language fungot does understand 16:21:17 ais523: t-rex, i left a party early to go have a bath, and there i don't feel like i look down and notice you're not there 16:21:47 fungot: What language do you speak? 16:21:47 danil: to turn back time and live again with your sweetie! i'm sure one will look for them, i have come up with a " i have lots, probably! if not, we can make the cutest cards ever for a series of puns. 16:22:11 Oh, a buisness deal with a bot!? 16:22:16 ^ul (Underload! ):*:*:*S 16:22:16 Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! Underload! 16:22:27 also brainfuck but it's harder to write programs in that quickly 16:22:38 `! bf_txtgen brainfuck! 16:22:39 what is Underload 16:22:42 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload 16:22:44 105 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>>.<++.>-.>+++++++.+++++.<+++++.<+++.>---.>---.>+++++.-. [171] 16:22:55 Hi, HackEgo 16:23:17 hackego is our main esoteric programming language interpretation bot 16:23:28 although people normally use it for messing around rather than for actually running esolang programs 16:23:29 Oh. 16:23:38 I wanted to ask some vague questions about esoteric language development, in a rubber duck style. 16:23:39 How do you use him? 16:23:55 to interpret an esolang, you type `! then the language name then the program 16:24:00 ^ul(Hi!):*:*:*S 16:24:07 need a space 16:24:12 after ^ul 16:24:29 ^ul (Hi!):*:*:*S 16:24:29 Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi!Hi! 16:24:48 !brainfuck +- 16:24:58 +- doesn't produce any visible output 16:25:06 also you'd need `! brainfuck +- 16:25:12 `! brainfuck +[.+] 16:25:13 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/brainfuck: not found 16:25:17 err, need a cell width 16:25:20 `! bf8 +[.+] 16:25:21 ​. \ 16:25:33 ! bf8 +[.++] 16:25:43 you missed the ` 16:25:56 `! bf8 +[.++] 16:25:57 ​. 16:26:02 Suppose I have a simple core esoteric language, which doesn't have much IO facilities, plus a standard library, which can have optional parts, for doing IO. The library has an interface that matches the language features, so you could give the same interface as the library functions have if you wrote those functions in that language based implemented from any reasonable other IO facilities, built-in or otherwise. 16:26:13 Yeh.. 16:26:25 Sort of like how C has a core language with not much IO facilities, plus a standard library, only this one is esoteric. 16:26:31 ok.. 16:26:34 `! bf8 +++++[->++++++<]>++[.+] 16:26:34 ​ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ 16:26:46 What was that for? 16:26:55 danil: trying to produce useful output with a fairly short program 16:27:03 ^source 16:27:03 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 16:27:11 The core language is rather simple, which I like. Would it ruin the beauty of that simplicity to provide such an IO library? 16:27:21 Ok... 16:27:30 although I don't get why it doesn't start with space 16:27:44 ais523: I think it does 16:27:48 ye... 16:27:56 it starts with ​ !" for me 16:28:07 anyway, I have a meeting now, bye everyone 16:28:14 Bye 16:28:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: meeting). 16:28:19 ais523: right, there's a space after the header hackego always ouputs to avoid triggering other bots 16:28:35 Ok. 16:28:44 I need Lunch. Bye 16:28:56 Quit: lunch 16:29:20 Done. 16:29:35 Now what programming language fungot uses? 16:29:35 danil: and in the book, i tell people that the key to a good diet! she never did in the past. now i'll have that one, the one on a boat can float along for years without crew or sails or a working knowledge, you can never again be able to look in a mirror 16:29:58 hey, how do i disable f***** 16:30:22 danil: it's implemented in befunge. you can write macros for it in brainfuck and underload. 16:32:00 I mean, who made fungoat 16:32:14 fungot cannot be disabled, but you can sneak invisible characters in and confuse it. 16:32:29 how do i do that 16:32:40 it's fizzie's creation I believe. 16:33:01 fungоt <- unicode is also an option 16:33:07 how many bots are their? 16:33:13 `unidecode о 16:33:14 ​[U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] 16:33:40 `unidecode ao 16:33:40 ​[U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] 16:33:44 `prefixes 16:33:46 Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ . 16:33:55 not all of those are still here 16:34:03 whos lambdabot? 16:34:17 > [1..] 16:34:19 [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,... 16:34:22 EgoBot ! 16:34:35 >[23..] 16:34:51 spacenotoptional 16:35:03 Huh? 16:35:15 >[2..] 16:35:19 > [23..] 16:35:22 [23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,... 16:35:29 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:35:39 > [24..] 16:35:41 [24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,... 16:35:50 YES! 16:36:03 whos jbot 16:36:04 > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1) 16:36:06 [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,... 16:36:28 what programming language is THAT! 16:36:59 Haskell. 16:37:17 ohhhhhh! Why Haskell in esolang? 16:37:34 @metar lowi 16:37:34 LOWI 021520Z 26007KT 9999 -RA FEW080 SCT100 BKN150 17/11 Q1019 NOSIG 16:37:43 this, and it relays messages 16:37:47 what is that 16:37:54 @google metar 16:37:56 https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/ 16:38:08 @metar ohh 16:38:31 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR is more useful, I guess 16:38:40 @metar pirr 16:38:40 No result. 16:38:50 you need to provide an ICAO airport code 16:38:53 @metar PIR 16:39:22 BTW, WHAT DID @METAR LOWI DO? 16:39:30 @metar kpir 16:39:30 KPIR 021453Z AUTO 31003KT 10SM CLR 11/08 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP108 T01060078 51012 16:39:54 WHY IS METAR NEEDED? 16:40:04 @metar RAP 16:40:07 because everybody likes talking about the weather. 16:40:23 what does that message do? 16:40:38 @metar rap 16:40:52 @metar LAS 16:41:00 icao has four letter codes. 16:41:41 For most US airpoirts it's K followed by the IATA code, I believe. 16:41:55 @metar KLAS 16:41:55 KLAS 021456Z 36015G25KT 330V030 10SM FEW180 20/M06 A2980 RMK AO2 SLP071 T02001061 51028 16:42:22 what does the above message from lambdabot mean? 16:42:54 @metar KRAP 16:42:54 KRAP 021452Z 32005KT 10SM SCT039 BKN046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP132 T00780050 53014 16:43:07 @metar KSFC 16:43:07 it's 20°C, very dry, windy... 16:43:07 No result. 16:43:26 How did you parse it? 16:43:34 The 20/M06 part is temperature and dewpoint. 16:43:42 anyway, see the METAR wikipedia page 16:43:52 I better do 16:44:04 @google metar 16:44:05 https://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/metars/ 16:44:17 @wikipedia metar 16:44:17 Unknown command, try @list 16:44:22 @list 16:44:22 What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas. 16:45:25 quit: reading longggggg wiki page 16:45:35 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:45:59 @METAR SFRUN 16:45:59 Unknown command, try @list 16:46:13 @metar SFRUN 16:46:27 whats the code for Russia? 16:48:11 @metar UCFM 16:48:11 UCFM 021530Z 12005MPS 8000 BKN066CB 11/07 Q1011 R26/CLRD70 NOSIG 16:48:42 @metar oss 16:48:54 @metar UOSS 16:48:54 No result. 16:49:00 @metar OSS 16:50:23 @metar UAFG 16:50:23 No result. 16:50:31 @metar UAFG 16:50:31 No result. 16:50:43 tHAT IS A AIRPORT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 16:52:12 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 16:53:03 -!- danil has joined. 16:53:14 @metar UAFS 16:53:14 No result. 16:54:04 @metar UUEE 16:54:04 UUEE 021530Z 07002MPS 9999 OVC017 04/02 Q1032 R24R/CLRD62 R24L/CLRD62 NOSIG 17:05:22 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:07:30 -!- `^_^v has joined. 17:13:15 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 17:16:51 HI 17:19:29 fungot <- unicode 17:19:30 danil: in a good story, they function in an undiagnosable way? i could have this hyper-evolved speaking that could convince anyone to do whatever i want!! 17:19:41 fungot 17:19:41 danil: hey, i have unfocused, but at the end, to ask me what my favourite suffix. 17:19:59 fungot: Really? 17:23:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:23:27 fungot: say something? 17:24:06 ^style nethack 17:24:06 Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) 17:24:26 fungot Hi 17:24:38 ^ hi 17:24:51 ^ul (hi!) 17:25:03 nethack 17:26:29 @metar KRAP 17:26:30 KRAP 021552Z 35007KT 10SM FEW046 08/05 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP133 T00780050 17:30:41 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 17:34:32 -!- danil has joined. 17:35:11 PDFs from professional organizations that still read "Microsoft Word - whatever.doc" as their title... Why 17:39:08 You want a S in that ul. 17:39:09 ^ul (hi!)S 17:39:09 hi! 17:39:28 There's also a thing where it only answers one person at most three or four times in a row, to stop loops. 17:41:01 fizzie: hi 17:41:20 fizzie: how are you? any new panoramas? 17:42:08 fizzie: thanks! 17:42:21 ^ul(hi!)S 17:42:39 ^ul (hi!)S 17:42:39 hi! 17:42:49 fizzie: I have taken some (using the built in function on the phone) but I have not yet uploaded it anywhere 17:43:20 ^ <-unicode 17:43:56 whatcha talkin` about 17:44:01 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:44:32 ^ul (hi!)S*:*:* 17:44:32 hi! ...out of stack! 17:45:03 j-bot 17:45:10 j-bot: hi 17:45:11 danil: |value error: hi 17:45:21 jb: help 17:45:33 jbot: help 17:45:55 j-bot: help 17:45:56 danil: |value error: help 17:46:12 j-bot: 2*2 17:46:13 danil: 4 17:46:22 fizzie: Apparently the jpeg is 47 MB huh 17:46:44 What are you talking about? 17:47:01 j-bot: 2*2% 17:47:02 danil: |syntax error 17:47:02 danil: | 2 *2% 17:48:48 j-bot: 2*2*2*2*2 17:48:49 danil: 32 17:49:20 Oh, manager... 17:49:43 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 17:49:46 Vorpal: Mm, probably, but I don't have a list anywhere. I've been mostly defaulting to using the phone's built-in thing as well. I had that home-built panorama head for the previous Sorta-Real Camera, but it doesn't fit the Real Camera. 17:50:26 fizzie: I went to a nature reserve that was a previous forest fire area (big forest fire) a couple of years ago. Very different nature 17:50:38 Should upload some pictures somewhere. Dropbox may work 17:50:44 -!- danil has joined. 17:51:13 Vorpal: We went to Scotland again this summer, I'm sure I took some photos there. 17:51:23 j-bot: 1112234578*11111111 17:51:24 danil: 12358161854196158 17:52:04 * danil HI 17:52:53 Is'nt this channel offtop 17:53:04 always 17:53:08 not always 17:53:29 Often, though. 17:53:37 b_jonass 17:53:45 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 17:54:46 fizzie: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ie7mmypeovlr1n2/AADV2B4P4Kd66X_HXXbDI-T2a?dl=0 17:55:22 -!- danil has joined. 17:56:16 fizzie: hopefully I shared in the proper way. I think dropbox redesigned the interface or something, doesn't work like I remember it 17:56:54 I have a little ontop question 17:57:02 danil: sure, what is it? 17:57:21 Why are esolangs needed?# 17:57:40 danil: why is any hobby needed? 17:58:11 so esolangs are hobbies. I met a dev who used esolangs to get money. 17:58:33 ...how? 17:58:43 I think they can be educational as well 17:59:19 You can learn about computing in the restricted domain of esolangs. Or learn to write a compiler more easily than for a real language. 17:59:37 -!- imode has joined. 18:00:03 So, his manager gave him Money per line of code. To make a simple program he got a esolang which a) obfuscated his code b) was longer then even java 18:00:32 Sounds to me you don't need a different language for that. 18:00:38 Anyway, by one of the popular definitions, if practical use is the primary intention, it isn't an esolang. 18:00:50 How our wiki puts it is: "An esoteric programming language, or esolang, is a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas, to be hard to program in, or as a joke, rather than for practical use." 18:00:53 huh. Well obviously his manager doesn't understand good coding practice. Also that is a shitty way to get paid 18:00:55 Vorpal: Whatever you did seems to have worked. Looks nice. Not that different from some parts of Finland. 18:01:09 fizzie: all the trees are dead. Forest fire. 18:01:23 Acttually, a Brainf interpreter is easier to make than a BASIC one 18:01:27 fizzie: it is not that they lost their leaves for the winter 18:01:52 fizzie: the landscape felt kind of spooky. Lots of signs about increased risk of falling trees and such. 18:02:13 danil: indeed! so good for education to learn the basics of interpreter writing 18:02:26 optimising brainfuck compiler is quite interesting too 18:02:26 correct. 18:02:29 I would prefer to be the payment by a fixed amount, regardless of how large it is or how much time it takes, assuming the program is good. 18:02:42 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:03:28 Well, what do Water Supply managers now about Coding & computers. A misterious box with weird lamps. 18:03:48 hah 18:04:22 BTW, it was a anecdote from a guy's forum. Could be true, though 18:04:33 I prefer the way I work. Paid a fixed monthly salary and having a reasonably secure job (i.e. not just for a single project) 18:04:58 I also. Only i am a student not a adult. 18:05:38 I think pay one fixed amount per project is better, rather than per month or per hour or whatever 18:06:03 Both of you are right i n some way 18:06:14 zzo38: only if you work on a project basis, as supposed to continued development of a large product 18:06:32 OK. 18:07:00 Vorpal: told you this channel goes offtop 18:07:29 danil: yes I only said: danil> Is'nt this channel offtop always not always 18:07:41 I never disputed "sometimes" or even "often" 18:08:51 danil: mind you, it isn't as if we are interrupting some on topic stuff that is going on at the same time 18:09:45 Sorry. I always do that 18:10:10 Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down.... 18:10:13 always do what? 18:10:22 huh 18:10:29 bad internet? 18:10:32 Be to dramatic 18:10:49 Na, Buggy Linux + Buggy IRC 18:11:17 Ubuntu is slow 18:11:26 using ubuntu atm. Ubuntu LTS 18:11:30 on a core 2 duo laptop 18:11:33 works fine 18:11:42 upgraded it with an SSD, but that is it 18:11:47 Ubuntu 17.04 Acer Aspire V5 18:11:49 -!- jaboja has joined. 18:12:05 I hate LTS. I'm bleeding edge 18:12:09 danil: 16.04 LTS, Thinkpad from ~2009 18:12:25 oh you would hate what I run on my desktop 18:12:29 Debian stable 18:12:45 What? 18:12:47 also you should totally use arch or gentoo then. Probably arch 18:13:07 "what" in response to what? 18:13:22 I use OpenSuSe(12) on my Desktop 18:13:43 Vorpal: Are you a GPL activist? 18:13:53 yeah I like debian stable and ubuntu lts. Means it just works except when I upgrade every two or three years. 18:14:10 no, but I used GPL for my own befunge-98 interpreters 18:14:20 LTS for me is too stable... 18:14:28 I like crashing Linux 18:14:39 actually this LTS has some annoying bugs with the old intel graphics of this laptop 18:15:01 specifically the on resume from suspend chrome starts flickering black. Firefox is fine 18:15:04 I'm a Beer Liscence Activist. Like BSD liscense also 18:15:13 I LOVE FIREFOX. 18:15:26 I always use AMD 18:15:41 meh, they are just browsers. As long as they can run scriptmonkey and stylish, whatever 18:16:08 (greasemonkey/tampermonkey, depending on browser) 18:16:52 -!- Remavas has joined. 18:16:54 Yeah. Suppose your right. I Just installed a new IRC client called Polari. Everything does not work 18:17:02 now 18:17:08 danil: I use hexchat. I used xchat before that. 18:17:18 it just works 18:17:39 I don't want to spend all my time making computers work. I rather be productive with them. 18:18:00 I couldnt configure hexchat. It was confusing. I now just use the Ubuntu Chat app 18:18:13 really? huh 18:18:30 Ubuntu Chat just works 18:18:45 At least for now 18:18:53 ubuntu chat? what is that? 18:19:14 Chat Application 18:19:30 well duh, but what is it based on? Pidgin? 18:19:43 Mind you I run ubuntu and debian with MATE. Not a fan of the default ubuntu unity thing 18:19:59 thought ubuntu bundled pidgin 18:20:06 Nah. More quicker and agile. I am using KDE with Unity apps 18:20:50 Chat is quicker than a pidgeon. Pidgeon's are slow and dangerous 18:20:57 eh, this hardware couldn't handle that 18:21:23 I actually run cinamon on my desktop, instead of mate. Switched when upgrading debian most recently 18:21:30 I just installed kubuntu-desktop through terminal.# 18:21:52 I am a KDE fanatic. 18:22:03 danil: the GUI is just a terminal multiplexer for most of what I do. 18:22:13 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 18:22:46 <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can 18:22:57 <\oren\_> so, LXDE or XFCE 18:23:22 \oren\_: there are enough GUI programs I use. Image editing, web browser, IDEs. That sort of stuff. 18:23:32 i3wm with a random assortment of programs 18:24:40 could probably work just as well as MATE, LXDE or XFCE yes 18:25:01 Just the inertia of learning a new system, when the keyboard shortcuts are ingrained in your fingers 18:25:02 <\oren\_> for a while i was using two computers. one that didn't run a desktop at all, which i dialed into from the other, which was running puppy linux 18:26:33 bbl 18:28:01 -!- danil has joined. 18:28:09 Everyone calls me a greybeard 18:28:47 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:02 -!- danil has joined. 18:29:10 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:15 <\oren\_> danil: being a greybeard pays well doesn't it 18:43:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:53:00 -!- danil has joined. 18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:53:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:54:19 THE GUI IS A TERMMINAL MULTIPLEXER 18:54:36 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 19:08:12 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:08:48 <\oren\_> Vorpal: that's why I use the most minimal (in terms of resources) gui i can << twm? 19:09:03 because everything other than twm uses more resources. 19:09:17 {yes, even that shiny i3wm} 19:09:41 * Cthulhux is still considering between stumpwm and windowmaker 19:10:03 those gnome wannabes are too apple'ish 19:10:41 also: Ahhhh! My IRC clien is slowwing down.... < write your own one :D 19:10:56 have you considered running without a window manager... 19:11:12 (no, I'm not really serious, but it does seem to be a valid question ;-) ) 19:11:18 a TTY is not a minimal GUI! 19:11:24 because it's not a GUI :x 19:12:28 Cthulhux: you can run X without a window manager 19:12:35 i should look up if i3wm uses more ressources than herbstluft 19:12:36 you'll end up placing everything manually though 19:13:01 because, uh, placing and optionally decorating windows is one of the main tasks of window managers. 19:13:03 i3wm *does* use more resources than twm. 19:13:52 and by "placing manually" I mean passing -geometry options to everything. 19:20:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:21:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:23:09 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 19:33:40 -!- imode has joined. 19:41:25 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:41:31 I currently use i3wm, but may later write my own. 19:44:57 don't. 19:45:15 i mean, you'll learn a lot, but: don't. :D there are too many WMs already. 19:45:47 (i miss the good old times when everyone wrote text editors, not wms..) 19:48:37 <\oren\_> speaking of which I need to finish my text editor 19:49:41 :D 19:50:30 i need to finish my xmarks alternative. and my gopher client. and my irc client. and my text editor. and my reddit bot. and my two file managers. 19:50:32 i won. 19:51:08 I'm pretty sure zzo38 is winning the local vapourware contest. 19:51:44 you don't know the list of projects i haven't even STARTED yet! 19:52:05 Then again, maybe Feather counts for a dozen ordinary vapourware projects. 19:53:20 int-e: it's in an earlier stage than vapourware 19:53:34 vapourware normally has the advantage of at least being known to be theoretically possible to write 20:03:19 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:03:38 -!- HackEgo has joined. 20:10:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:13:07 No, I might write a window manager. That way I can learn how it is working, but also just to put the stuff I wanted (I don't need all of the features of i3, and is also missing some thing I wanted), but also just in case I want to do some day, I might or might not I don't know. You can use X without a window manager, which can be useful if you only need one window, I suppose. 20:13:48 What is your xmarks alternative, gopher client, irc client, and others, aredoing what? I wrote a IRC client already and more than one gopher client 20:14:07 (What is xmarks anyways?) 20:15:52 *googles* a bookmarks manager with synchronisation facilities? 20:19:32 Anyways I do not use the i3 menu, nor the status bar it comes with; I wrote my own status bar program for use with i3bar, and just use the command shell in xterm if I want to start other programs, so xterm and xrefresh are the only programs I have added keybindings to start them. 20:20:17 int-e: yup, but without restriction to one browser 20:20:34 synching the built-in browser bookmarks 20:20:42 nothing else does that and xmarks sucks 20:20:43 :x 20:21:00 zzo38, why use i3 then? 20:21:04 I also added a program to display the process ID and window ID if the title is clicked with the right button. 20:21:39 Cthulhux: Well, the i3 menu and i3status are separate programs from i3wm anyways, and I have not installed those other programs. Mainly it is just the closest thing to what I wanted and is suitable for now. 20:21:49 hmm 20:22:20 i found i3wm too over-hyped 20:23:37 To use bookmarks outside of the browser though I just wrote a shell script which executes SQL queries to do it, although only with one browser; still, with the same SQL queries I can add them to work with Lynx and so on too rather than only Firefox if I wanted to, easily enough. 20:25:40 Do you think this look good enough to you or don't? 20:26:12 Why do you need two file managers? 20:27:10 one as a clone of windows 3.11's good old fileman.exe (it was better than young people think) 20:27:20 one as a better tc/mc/far manager/whatever 20:27:21 :) 20:28:10 Do you mean like a orthodox file manager? 20:28:31 pretty much, yes 20:28:57 i mainly use them on windows, but the one of my choice (currently, speedcommander) still lacks some features *for me* 20:29:07 so i thought it would be easy 20:29:11 spoiler: it wasn't 20:29:24 I hardly used fileman.exe when I used Windows 3.1 20:29:31 pretty much just for creating directories 20:29:39 i used fileman a lot on windows 9x 20:29:41 nearly always I opened files via File|Open in the program that read them 20:29:45 better than crapplorer 20:30:01 it actually still would be, if win10 would support 16-bit applications 20:30:01 :/ 20:30:25 it had dual panels! 20:30:33 I use Linux and do not use any file manager, since, can just using the command shell 20:30:34 something microsoft thought nobody would want anymore 20:30:56 hmm wasn't it basically a graphical norton commander 20:30:59 i can use "the command shell" on windows too (the powershell is actually rather handy), but i don't want to :D 20:31:13 * int-e forgot 20:31:57 int-e: http://www.mi.uni-koeln.de/c/mirror/www.igd.fhg.de/www/grz/mswin/awfntdev/fileman.gif 20:32:04 <3 lovely 20:32:14 no bullshit, just file management. 20:32:20 zzo38: I normally use a shell on Linux for file management 20:32:29 ok, and a WinZip plugin on the screenshot 20:32:31 sometimes I use Nautilus, though 20:33:03 Cthulhux: oh I see, it had the tree part... yes I miss that as well. 20:33:15 *sigh* 20:33:16 . o O ( it's still there in regedit ;-) ) 20:33:34 i have a half-working version ready 20:33:36 in delphi :x 20:33:43 no menus yet. 20:34:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:34:17 (ha, on-topic! because who still uses delphi, except me?) 20:34:45 I sometimes use QuickBASIC for writing DOS programs 20:35:38 (Including MIXPC, which is mentioned on the esolang wiki article about MIX (Knuth), because it is an implementation of that instruction set.) 20:36:02 why did they discontinue borland pascal for windows anyway? 20:36:28 freepascal works 20:37:27 Is there a free compiler for DOS that will work in real mode? 20:37:30 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:40:51 for which language? 20:40:53 I put on my computer on the status bar, the number of email messages, the system load, the memory usage, and the current date/time. I did not put temperature because I do not have a driver for it. 20:41:15 Cthulhux: BASIC, although a different programming language might do too 20:41:16 zzo38: do you want the compiler itself to run on DOS real mode? or do you want its /output/ to run on DOS real mode? 20:41:39 FASM? 20:41:53 ais523: The output program. I would want the compiler also to, but if it doesn't, it could be OK as long as the output program does run on real mode. 20:43:23 developing programs under DOS, now there's a thing I do not miss a lot 20:43:28 zzo38: "bruce's C compiler" runs on Linux and produces 8086 real mode output, and has an option to produce it as a DOS .COM file 20:43:41 it probably runs on other OSes too (maybe even DOS itself) 20:43:55 (because every second programming error ended up requiring a hard reboot) 20:44:08 in terms of compilers that run on DOS real mode themselves, I'm not sure if there are any FLOSS compilers, but shareware compilers were fairly common back then 20:44:25 IIRC Borland made a few 20:44:28 Well, DOS starts up much faster than Linux or Windows, so a hard reboot does not take as long 20:45:17 kolibrios is hella fast 20:45:38 I once installed FreeDOS and a database program on a computer, and when the CRT was turned on at the same time as turning on the computer, the database program is already ready by the time the picture is visible. 20:48:10 this computer (running Linux) shuts down really fast, when I reboot the shutdown is faster than the "BIOS" (actually EFI) loading screen (which shows before the bootloader even starts running) 20:48:55 a computer running linux that can be shut down? 20:48:58 no systemd?:D 20:49:17 nah, it has systemd, it just somehow seems to actually work in this configuration 20:50:05 wonderous times 20:51:55 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:58:35 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:05:04 ugh 21:05:12 my shutdown has broken again actually 21:05:15 fucking systemd 21:05:20 :DDD 21:05:39 tried _working_ operating systems, like virtually any non-linux? 21:06:16 pfffthahahaha 21:06:25 sorry i didn't realise you were that much of a hipster 21:06:35 i like having steam too much, i'm afraid 21:06:45 being called a "hipster" by people using a 2% desktop system 21:06:55 exactly my kind of joke 21:07:03 well, your loss. 21:07:12 well if you mean windows or mac os then yeah obviously i've tried those 21:07:34 * Cthulhux uses windows, openbsd and freebsd 21:07:39 no systemd 21:07:41 >openbsd 21:07:42 perfect shutdown 21:07:43 :) 21:07:43 >freebsd 21:07:47 not a hipster 21:07:51 >working shutdown 21:07:57 i win again 21:08:15 also, playstations use freebsd as well 21:08:20 damn hipsters! 21:08:24 because as we all know it's impossible to run linux without systemd 21:08:37 that's a hilarious line of reasoning really 21:08:52 poettering shitware is slowly infecting every inch of the gnu/linux fail ecosystem 21:08:57 i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux 21:08:59 see firefox/pulseaudio 21:08:59 aaahahahahaha 21:09:01 see GNOME 21:09:03 etc 21:09:15 i mean, everything you can run on freebsd you can run on linux << really? ZFS as a root file system? :P 21:09:29 right so explain to me the desktop environment you're using on freebsd that doesn't run on linux 21:09:30 i'll wait 21:09:36 zfs is nice but it's not a game-changer 21:09:50 zfs *is* a game-changer. (ok, maybe not on a desktop) 21:09:58 lol 21:10:24 nothing you do in freebsd will ever require any poettering shitware 21:10:24 even on a server you don't need it as root 21:10:32 enjoy the remaining three hipster distros 21:10:33 :p 21:10:38 nothing you do on linux requires poeterring shitware 21:10:44 idk why you can't grasp this 21:10:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:11:08 how large is the userbase of non-poettering shitware distros (no udev, no pulseaudio, no shitstemd)? 21:11:11 >hipster 21:11:25 idk, can you demonstrate it's smaller than bsd's? 21:11:48 a large part of the web traffic is routed through freebsd (netflix and whatsapp) 21:11:50 won! 21:12:02 so yes, i can 21:12:02 lol 21:12:19 so subtly moving the goalposts away from desktop use 21:12:23 the main point is still: your fail os fails to shutdown 21:12:28 so much better, i see 21:12:44 i think you're missing my actual point 21:12:55 which is, lol you're 13 and think os pissing contests are cool 21:13:02 your actual point being "hurr durr i COULD use a working os but NOBODY USES BSD" 21:13:23 because working computers are sooooo 90s. 21:13:23 :) 21:14:01 pfffthahahaha 21:14:02 which is, lol you're 13 21:14:11 * Cthulhux nods 21:14:17 i mean i think poettering's a cunt too but i don't go around embarrassing myself by blabbering about 'shitstemd' 21:14:38 yup, you try to bash working software instead 21:14:42 clever 21:14:48 lol 21:14:51 where did i bash bsd 21:14:56 >try to 21:15:15 <\oren\_> i prefer to use alsa 21:15:50 i always use alsa 21:16:19 i've only used pulse on this machine to run unity games after they fucked up and made them require pulse 21:16:26 (until i found a workaround) 21:16:38 presumably you couldn't run those games on freebsd at all, idk 21:18:42 escaping lennart's bullshit would be nice but not worth rebooting to windows every time i wanted to play anything 21:18:56 because you can't reboot :) 21:19:16 lol 21:19:53 i don't think the shutdown's even really broken, there's some sort of transient permissioning problem 21:20:21 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: why not just use separate linux and windows computers 21:20:26 ... 21:20:49 <\oren\_> arms not strong enough to carry two laptops? 21:20:58 i have a desktop 21:21:38 <\oren\_> Phantom_Hoover: then why not two 21:22:19 maybe just one desk 21:23:24 definitely, i barely have room for a tiny desk in this room let alone two towers 21:24:23 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: well he could have a switch that changes which computer the peripherals are connected to, my dad had one back in the day 21:25:47 <\oren\_> it had two outlets for mouse, keyboard and screen, and one input, and a big dial that rotated between 1 and 2 21:26:04 that still requires room for a second computer 21:26:49 <\oren\_> Cthulhux: I guess but it doesn't need room for a second desk at least 21:28:05 <\oren\_> actually would such a switch thing even work with complex protocols of USB and hdmi? maybe it would have to have a microprocessor in it 21:28:45 <\oren\_> back in the 90's we used PS/2 and VGA connecters 21:33:54 \oren\_: the search term is "KVM switch", which stands for "keyboard, video, mouse" (in a strange order) 21:34:22 wob_jonas: presumably it was just a KV switch originally, then mice became popular so were added onto the end 21:35:36 \oren\_: these days instead people connect the keyboard, mouse and video outlets to small computers with microprocessors that give you a remote control ability through the internet for administrative access. remote management console or something. sometimes they also add a relay to power cycle the machine. 21:36:13 I used to use an external HDMI switch when I had a monitor without enough inputs. I don't think it had much of smarts, though. 21:36:26 ais523: maybe, but the mouse was already popular 25 years ago for non-game computers, and you don't use a KVM switch for a game console, so I'm not sure if that ever really happened 21:37:11 sometimes you get away without a switch by connecting two computers to a monitor through two different types of inputs. with like four different types of video input these days (VGA, DVI, HDMI, displayport), that's often easy by accident. 21:37:26 and having two keyboards (or just using the built-in keyboard of a notebook) is easier than having two monitors 21:38:24 but then, these days some people also just use multiple monitors 21:39:18 Many monitors have more than one of a given type of input, at least if you go a bit fancier. This one has 2x HDMI, one DP and one mini-DP. 21:39:24 my father, for example, is a sysadmin, so sometimes he works on his own notebook plus two other local computers at the same time to install stuff, in that case he can connect two computers to two monitors and either use only the built-in small display of the notebook or connect using two different types of input 21:39:46 fizzie: can it actually switch between those two HDMI by some button presses on the monitor? 21:39:51 Sure. 21:40:06 nice 21:40:07 then that too 21:40:12 I didn't know that was common on monitors 21:40:15 It's even got two soft keys you can bind to a specific action, including a specific output. 21:40:23 It really made that HDMI switch redundant. 21:40:36 Okay, the switch had 4 HDMI inputs on it, but I don't have that many sources. 21:40:51 This is a Dell U2515H, for reference. 21:41:38 yeah, but then all these different connection types get complicated because you often need at least passive converters (the video cards do the actual conversion, the passive converter just connects the wires) 21:42:10 why do we have both hdmi and displayport, as separate types? 21:42:44 It does get pretty complicated, especially since all of them have different version numbers. 21:43:00 I understand that VGA only does analog video signals, which is why we need DVI, which can do analog or digital, and that DVI doesn't do sound in the same cable as video, which is why we have HDMI 21:43:49 fizzie: sure, I know the same kind of connector port can carry multiple different signals, so there's DVI with fewer or more ports, depending on whether you want analog or digital, and... something about more than 8 bits of color depth or some such magic? I'm not sure frankly 21:44:31 It's very specific. E.g. you need at least DisplayPort 1.3 to have enough bandwidth for a 3840x2160 resolution. 21:44:59 Or 1.2. Or something, I don't remember anymore. 21:45:14 There's also something you need HDMI 2.0 for, over HDMI 1.4. 21:45:35 and while we're there, why do we have both USB3 (two speeds of that, I think) and ESATA for fast communication between a computer and a storage device? 21:45:40 Apparently that's the 4K resolution thing, and the DisplayPort version was something else. 21:46:12 ah, so maybe you need a fancier cable for extra-high resolution with high color depth 21:46:15 that could make sense 21:46:28 There's an USB 3.1 as well, and it comes in "gen 1" and "gen 2" varieties. 21:47:20 fizzie: oh, I thought we only had USB 3 and USB 3.1 21:47:22 USB 3.1 gen 2 can do five speeds: low speed, full speed, high speed, superspeed and superspeed+. 21:47:32 <\oren\_> what is the maximum VGA screen size? 21:47:34 do USB 3 and USB 3.1 use the same physical connector? 21:47:44 It's just a little funny how "full speed" is like the second-slowest option. 21:48:08 <\oren\_> I guess since it's an analog signal it's limited physically rather than my protocol 21:48:12 fizzie: oh, that's like how "double density" is the small capacity floppy disk 21:48:40 the one nobody ever uses because high density floppies are supported everywhere and are cheap and have twice as much data 21:48:54 you can still read double density in ordinary drives, but you barely find any 21:49:00 I have seen one such floppy 21:49:06 so it at least exists 21:53:25 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:54:12 If you wanted video out of a "mobile" device, it gets even more complex. There's that thing called MHL (actually, MHL 1, 2, 3 and superMHL) which sort of has the "semantics" of HDMI, but usually use either MHL-USB (micro-USB-based) or a specific mode of USB Type-C. Competing with the SlimPort/MyDP, which is basically DisplayPort integrated with micro-USB. 21:54:30 It's also very hard to find which devices support what. 21:55:44 At least the U in USB stands for "universal", so there's that. 21:56:09 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:56:53 fizzie: yeah 21:57:10 USB is complicated 21:57:51 there are lots of different physical connectors, lots of bulit-in hardware level protocols so you can charge stuff or have stuff charged without complicated electronics and bootstrap the digital layer 21:58:21 and then there are multiple digital protocols, the USB/USB2 on one set of wires, the USB3 on a second set of wires, bootstrapped by USB2 22:00:01 and it's nice that USB3 is fast, but just try to find a motherboard that has two USB3 root hubs built in, meaning that it can do full-speed USB3 conversations on two different ports at the same time, without having to buy a separate USB3 extension card that you plug in to PCI express (of which there are also like six different speeds) 22:05:23 hmm 22:05:25 Bus 008 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub 22:05:25 Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub 22:06:26 Oh, that reminds me of the whole thing with with M.2, which has a single connector that in theory can do PCIE 3.0 (x1 to x4), SATA 3.0 and USB 3.0, distinguished by various notches. 22:07:57 I was looking at M.2 SSDs, and the people making them don't really advertise which one of them they do, but the PCIE variants tend to be a lot faster than the SATA ones. 22:09:15 oh right, there's PCIE too 22:09:19 however, the two usb3 plugs on the front are on the same USB bus, hrm. 22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Changing host). 22:10:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 22:10:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:10:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:11:20 And "lsusb -t" is really confusing, I think there's some sort of a thing where, if you plug USB 2 and 3 devices into a USB 3 hub, the two kinds of devices end up as separate trees even though physically it's just one tree. 22:11:53 On the other hand, dumping photos out of the phone became a lot faster when I changed monitors. 22:12:11 (There's an USB hub in there, and the new one does 3.0.) 22:15:37 fizzie: no, those are physically two different trees. basically in an USB3 socket, there's some extra wires for USB3 data. the USB3 device sends data on those only, and uses the USB2 for power and bootstrapping power, if I understand correctly. 22:16:43 yes, some monitors have a USB hub built in. and my father has a monitor that didn't, but he permanently taped a small USB hub gadget onto it. instant monitor feature upgrade. 22:18:55 the drawback of that monitor is that if you turn off the monitor with the power switch, then suddenly you can't use the keyboard or mouse plugged into your computer through the monitor 22:19:13 that's not the one with the instant upgrade, but the monitor with the hub originally built in 22:28:48 wob_jonas: ah I see. The board has two USB host controllers besides the one in the X99 chipset... that's how it got 2xUSB 3.0 and 1xUSB 3.1 22:29:14 int-e: two USB-3 controllers? because two USB-2 controllers is easy 22:29:47 but for USB-3 devices, one USB-3 controller usually gives more bandwidth than three USB-2 controllers 22:30:17 fo course, after a while, the rest of the computer can't keep up with the data either 22:30:19 wob_jonas: http://sprunge.us/VcBB 22:30:26 such as the CPU or GPU or disks 22:30:27 (this matches the MB documentation) 22:30:58 int-e: I don't know which one of EHCI and UHCI and XHCI and whatever mean what, but ok 22:31:31 wob_jonas: the xHCI is the USB 3.0 one, the other two in the chipset must be USB 2.0 22:31:53 ok 22:32:30 anyway, I had not realized that this is special... nor have I ever exploited this so far. 22:32:48 int-e: that's not special 22:32:58 int-e: that says you have one USB3 and two USB2 controllers 22:33:00 that's typical 22:33:23 wob_jonas: no, there's another USB 3.0 host and a USB 3.1 one in addition to that. 22:33:30 oh, nice 22:33:36 how new is that motherboard? 22:33:59 but doesn't EHCI mean USB 2? 22:34:35 I meant the VIA and the ASMedia things 22:35:30 int-e: oh. but some of those are probably different software views of the same controller 22:35:43 if your motherboard actually had two independent controllers, then you'd see two of the same type 22:36:02 your OS probably just creates multiple different devices that view the same underlying hardware in different ways 22:36:08 hmm, no it makes sense here. 22:36:14 possibly at different layers 22:36:33 int-e: do you have an extension card plugged in (such as via PCI express) that provides some of those? 22:37:01 yes it's odd to have three vendors, but the X99 part of the core chipset, and the two additional ones are different USB versions. 22:37:22 no I just bought a fairly expensive gaming motherboard 22:38:01 anyway, as for how to exploit that, get two external disk dockers, the ones in which you put a hard disk or solid state disk connected to the docking device with SATA or mini SATA or the other size of mini SATA, and the docking device is connected to your computer by USB 3 and to a power supply by a round power port 22:38:08 -!- Guest12180 has changed nick to moony. 22:38:19 -!- moony has quit (Changing host). 22:38:19 -!- moony has joined. 22:38:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:38:56 int-e: is it real gaming, or just labeled as "gaming"? hardware people label the most ridiculous non-gaming equipment as "gaming" for some reason, including motherboards with built-in hardware RAID and keyboards with hard clicky keys for use by programmers 22:39:53 they add all sort of search terms so that if you search for either "gaming" in ebay or google or something, you find all their products, even the ones not for gaming 22:40:13 https://us.msi.com/Motherboard/X99A-GAMING-7.html 22:40:37 also, nice 22:40:38 I regarded it as a marketing label either way... 22:41:51 "Gaming Device Port" 22:41:56 yeah, silly :) 22:43:25 ah, the Gaming Device Port has "3x more gold than regular connectors" and "10x longer lifetime when plugging/un-plugging" 22:43:40 but it's not clear if that refers to the PS2 port or an USB port 22:43:47 or even an audio port 22:44:02 or maybe all ports are gilded with gold 22:44:10 so that's what it means... it refers to 1xPS/2 and 2xUSB 2.0 22:45:07 and it's a total waste because those are the least moved plugs 22:45:38 not for a gamer who tries a new different type of fancy game controller every month 22:45:56 but I can't complain, board has been stable, it has 8 slots and on board sound is decent... those were basically the things I cared about. 22:46:06 8 memory slots even 22:46:19 I think all those left out words are a sign, good night. 22:46:22 and even when he doesn't buy anything new, he has to switch between the ordinary hand-held controller, Guitar Hero Rock Band controller, and the steering wheel and foot pedals 22:46:32 oh, 8 memory slots are nice 22:46:38 good nigth 22:46:56 it's a nice motherboard. not the one I'll buy, but nice. 22:48:52 -!- boily has joined. 22:49:11 `5 w 22:49:17 1/2:onion//Onions are the bullies of the dinner plate. They can make you cry. \ eventually//Eventually we'll have a better wisdom here. \ lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic. \ ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them. 22:49:18 `n 22:49:19 2/2: \ gaspacho//You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off! 22:58:04 -!- LKoen has joined. 23:00:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:08 -!- APic has quit (Quit: Scheduled Downtime. See You later, Gals and/or Pals. ☺). 23:01:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:07:11 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:08:18 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:08:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:26:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:35:51 <\oren\_> ♃ jupiter ♃ 23:35:55 <\oren\_> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/914734726493102082 23:36:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:42:47 HE\\OREN\。 23:46:44 <\oren\_> boily: are you excited for reusable rockets that can loft hundred-ton satellites? 23:47:09 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\. 23:55:55 -!- ACTPic has joined.