00:04:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:08:03 -!- augur has joined. 00:16:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:23:33 -!- augur has joined. 00:23:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:42 -!- augur has joined. 00:30:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:33:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:10 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ROOM CHICKEN). 00:54:34 -!- tromp has joined. 00:58:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:00:59 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:16:11 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 01:16:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 01:16:18 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 01:19:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 01:26:24 -!- augur has joined. 01:26:37 golly's sourceforge page goes down a lot. 01:27:13 I wish they updated the android version 01:27:32 that was pretty nifty 01:29:32 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:30:50 I'm wanting to figure out how it handles so many CAs of different rulesets. 01:30:54 i.e not lifelike. 01:33:04 -!- sleffy has joined. 01:34:22 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thenewcomposer * New user account 01:36:25 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:37 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:41:31 there's rule files 01:41:42 I don't recall very much about them, but they're just text files 01:41:57 yeah. I'm looking for documentation on them though. 01:42:05 they're documented somewhere I think, maybe on the forums? 01:42:17 -!- augur has joined. 01:42:27 they should be written in SMETANA, really :-P 01:42:38 wait, wrong language 01:42:41 SMETANA? :P 01:42:56 what's the CA description language from catseye? 01:43:02 it isn't SMETANA 01:43:09 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53140&oldid=53117 * Thenewcomposer * (+234) /* Introductions */ 01:44:39 oh, ALPACA 01:45:30 interesting. 01:45:45 they're vaguely similar names, I guess 01:45:58 all caps, end in "A". :P 01:46:02 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:48:29 having played BOTW recently I've been drawing things up related to emergent systems. 01:48:38 -!- tromp has joined. 01:49:22 imode: BOTW is one of those examples where a game developer has decided "I don't care if this game becomes an emergent system, I'm just going to live with whatever it comes up with" 01:49:24 considering CAs are just a bunch of FSMs with their inputs and outputs linked four ways, I'm experimenting with what I can make. 01:49:39 ais523: pretty much. 01:50:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:53:05 and it's excellent for it 01:53:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:55:56 space in a CA is kind of like those little LCD games, where the play field is already mapped out and the control logic just lights parts of it up depending on the game state. 01:56:51 getting a little "particle" to move around must be interesting. 01:57:30 -!- augur has joined. 02:06:47 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:23:49 [wiki] [[Minim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+5683) Created page with "= Minim: A Simple, Low Level, Interpreted Language Minim was == HELLO WORLD == ;;; START HELLO WORLD
[1 @ 13] = "Hello, World!\n". ; Put the string in memory [0] = 1...." 02:45:49 -!- tromp has joined. 02:47:03 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:53:03 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:01:09 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:47 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: See ya! o/). 03:34:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:35:24 -!- augur has joined. 03:39:58 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:42:33 -!- ^v has joined. 04:15:35 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:21:54 -!- sftp has joined. 04:36:32 -!- tromp has joined. 04:39:30 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:41:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:53:17 -!- augur has joined. 05:15:06 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:23:45 -!- \oren\_ has joined. 05:24:37 -!- diginet_ has joined. 05:24:53 -!- alercah_ has joined. 05:29:32 -!- puck1pedia has joined. 05:29:50 -!- lambdabot has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- puckipedia has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- diginet has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- fractal has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- catern has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- trn has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- alercah has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- \oren\ has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- pelegreno has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- aloril has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- BooK has quit (*.net *.split). 05:29:50 -!- diginet_ has changed nick to diginet. 05:29:59 -!- catern_ has joined. 05:30:00 -!- catern_ has changed nick to catern. 05:30:55 -!- puck1pedia has changed nick to puckipedia. 05:31:36 -!- tromp has joined. 05:32:12 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:32:30 -!- BooK has joined. 05:32:37 -!- lambdabot has joined. 05:34:07 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:35:15 -!- ineiros has joined. 05:35:25 -!- pelegreno has joined. 05:36:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:38:21 -!- aloril has joined. 05:40:14 -!- alercah_ has changed nick to alercah. 05:41:58 -!- fractal has joined. 05:42:29 -!- trn has joined. 06:18:42 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:25:07 -!- tromp has joined. 06:29:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:50:12 -!- Warrigal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:57:35 -!- Warrigal has joined. 07:01:56 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:04:14 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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This will make my work harder, but it may be worth it. 14:42:24 (My work as in writing documentation, reference implementation, and example programs.) 14:42:42 what's the twist? 15:14:32 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:16:08 I can't tell yet because the language is still secret 15:19:28 I totally disagree with the statement of today's xkcd 15:20:23 The news reporters always want to have lab coat guys shown on screen. So they interview an astronomer for every solar eclipse, a mathematician every time someone wins the lottery (blackboard instead of lab coat that time), 15:21:04 and a virologist and vulcanologist and robot engineer and all that sort of dangerous sounding profession for all the most boring fake news they invent. 15:21:26 It's exactly when they ask apparently boring scientists when we should worry that there's something scary going on. 15:33:31 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:36:42 "breaking news" != "news" (how many unexpected solar eclipses have you experienced?) 15:36:57 but the scale is totally arbitrary even with that considered. 15:37:25 int-e: ok, but even given that 15:38:07 (also anything sun related is very likely to be a total extinction event; those aren't really worth worrying about in my view) 15:38:53 int-e: a particularly bad solar storm could do a lot of damage without causing a total extinction 15:38:59 I mean, when they happen and can no longer be prevented ;) 15:39:05 ais523: true 15:40:06 It's a bit stupid to attach it to a scientific field. A breaking news event involving a virologist could be a cure for HIV. 15:42:11 . o O ( There are no absolute truths. ) 15:42:25 -!- sftp has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:43:17 int-e: or just some other daily story about which parents don't want their children to get the flu shot and asking the virologist for a thousandth time why the flu shot is important to stop spreading the epidemic to other people and stuff 15:44:01 the strip says "local reporters interviewing scientists about a breaking news story" 15:45:35 true 15:46:28 so I guess there's a puzzle there... what concrete event(s) did Randall have in mind when creating this ranking? 15:46:46 -!- sftp has joined. 15:47:02 -!- imode has joined. 15:47:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:48:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:06:21 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:06:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:06:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:13:32 ais523: by the way, someone from FSF replied to my email about the licencing question, but didn't say anything useful. 16:13:42 hmm, a pity 16:14:45 Basically they confirmed that, sure, the licenses are written with lawyers involved trying to make it a global license, so it should work anywhere. 16:14:58 But not a specific legal opinion or anything that would directly answer me. 16:15:20 given how many bugs there are in the GPLv2, I'm not convinced that their lawyers are all that good 16:15:30 (the GPLv3 is much better, but it had a really long public review period) 16:16:06 ais523: I'm not sure how many of those are actual bugs, as opposed to just problems that didn't exist back when v2 was written and couldn't have been foreseen reasonably. 16:17:09 But obviously the FSF already says that v3 is better than v2, so there's no point complaining to _them_ about bugs in v2 only. 16:18:14 yeah 16:18:24 and it's really important to remember that the FSF is ideological first 16:22:07 Also, the v2 is from 1991. The laws have genuinely changed since. The whole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_Agreement global international convention is from 1995, and it took years after that for countries to agree to it, 16:22:25 which is why the Hungarian law I link to is dated to 1999 (but modified since) in first place. 16:23:32 And, in particular, the section 43.4 that talks about geographical area was modified in 2011, let me see the version history of that one if I can. 16:28:10 hmm, I think the free version history info on net.jogtar.hu doesn't go back to that 16:48:41 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:06:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:11:46 hm. does describing any arbitrary cellular automata require a turing complete language? 17:11:59 I don't think it does. :P 17:12:11 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:13:14 -!- augur has joined. 17:16:04 imode: it depends on how you define cellular automata, possibly? 17:16:26 although it also depends on how you define the description 17:16:50 alpaca is not TC because it can't express an infinite loop (it's only usable for producing interpreters as output, not interpreting directly) 17:17:00 but if alpaca is a cellular automaton description language, so is cat 17:17:21 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:18:38 For whatever reason, I feel afraid of talking here. 17:18:47 say I hand you an arbitrary CA with some behavior. for any behavior I could possibly hand to you, I want you to re-create the rules followed by every cell in any way you'd like. does this require a turing complete language? 17:19:23 my gut says no, because why would it? the board's state is, well, the machine state. you could describe most behaviors with just an FSM. 17:19:45 but it'd be interesting to find a counterexample. 17:19:51 imode: what are the inputs and the outputs to the program in the language that you're not sure whether it's TC? 17:20:06 as far as I can tell, either the output is a program that emulates the CA, in which case trivially the language doesn't need to be TC 17:20:17 or else the program itself emulates the CA, in which case it's TC because some CAs are TC 17:20:29 you seem like you have something else in mind, but I'm not sure what 17:21:55 alright, alternative description. I write a CA simulator that supports black-box functions for rules. board state + coordinates for the currently active cell go into the black box, resulting cell state comes out. 17:22:37 is there a rule set that necessitates that whatever's in the black box use a turing complete language? 17:22:41 your program now takes an infinite amount of input, which causes the normal definitions of TCness to break down 17:23:07 as in, it's hard to say what being turing-complete even means in that context 17:23:09 ...nowhere did I mention infinite. try a 30x30 grid. 17:23:19 like, it's not hard to extrapolate what I'm talking about here. 17:23:24 it's not even hard to interpret. 17:23:28 if you only have a finite portion of the grid as input, then you can trivially just use a lookup table 17:23:33 as you only have finitely many possible inputs 17:23:43 and the program itself is deterministic 17:24:04 the input grid could be the neighborhood of the cell 17:24:16 that it could. 17:24:31 https://arin.ga/Q5kTWT my amazing new text editor 17:24:31 in which case, what rules would break the idea of a lookup table. 17:24:56 either you'd need infinitely many states per cell (e.g. an analog CA) 17:25:12 ooh, an analog CA 17:25:16 or else you'd need to look at an arbitrary amount of context (e.g. in RUBE, a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates) 17:25:46 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:25:56 what that says to me is "anything past the neighborhood of the cell". 17:27:14 that's actually interesting. if a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates, what's stopping me from defining an FSM that takes that into account, and if the dozer pushes the first crate, you swap the pushed crate's state to "crate, pushed left". 17:27:59 That becomes difficult to interpret 17:28:01 and the crates next to that pushed crate take note of that and alter their own states. then near the end of the chain, the empty spot just turns into a crate... 17:28:05 imode: it's not a finite state machine because a single crate has to keep looking left as long as there are crates, to see if it finds a dozer or empty space 17:28:13 so you have infinitely many states to deal with 17:28:44 you can make it into a CA with "speed of light" propagation of data rather than instantaneous 17:28:45 ais523: not from what I can see. it can still be defined by local rules. 17:28:51 e.g. by having the dozer start a vibration 17:28:54 yeah. 17:29:01 that's what I was intending to describe above. 17:29:05 but then the crates will keep moving for some time even if you remove the dozer 17:29:34 say > is our dozer, # is our crate, and @ is "crate, moving right." 17:30:39 >### is our initial state. say the dozer pushes the first crate. the next state would be >@##. the state after would be >@@#. after that, >@@@. after that, >@@ #. after that, >@ ##. after that, > ###. 17:30:56 that doesn't take a turing complete language to describe. 17:31:09 imode: yes but it's much slower than actual RUBE 17:31:16 in RUBE, you can push an entire sequence of crates in a single tick 17:31:19 well, given. :P 17:31:28 which is necessary in several Rubicon levels as a method of fast long-distance communication 17:31:52 I'm not interested in speed, I'm interested in requirements. 17:32:26 but the speed affects the semantics of a CA 17:32:31 because multiple things go on at once 17:32:33 that's true. propagation. 17:33:13 interesting, though. so you do need a TC language to account for "faster-than-light" travel. 17:33:22 wonder if there's any way around that. 17:33:33 doesn't need to be TC specifically, just an FSM is not good enough 17:33:45 for example, regular expressions are good enough for this and yet sub-TC 17:34:06 yeah. pretty much anything that has the capability to expand the neighborhood of a given cell can do that. 17:36:20 ..wait, regexes are FSMs. 17:37:05 so, they are good enough for this by your word. :P 17:37:52 imode: different level of FSMs 17:38:03 a regex processes input as it reads it 17:38:17 whereas the FSMs we were talking about earlier just have a single input and aren't applied iteratively to it 17:39:09 not sure what you're talking about because both march along iteratively along their respective inputs. 17:39:17 be it the board or the string they're fed. 17:39:19 imode: take Life as an example 17:39:46 the algorithm for calculating one cell there is based on having one output for each of the 512 possible inputs (each of which is the state of the cell and adjacent cells) 17:40:18 it's not typically based on reading the cells one at a time and having an internal state that updates with each cell read; that'd be substantially more complex as you'd need to count the cells to know which one was the central one 17:41:00 you could describe life as an FSM, because the transition between "alive" and "dead" depends on the sum of its neighbors, which can be fed as input to the FSM. 17:41:50 Is there something like a cellular automaton where instead of discrete cells you have a continuous function? 17:42:00 it's also not hard to do naive iteration over the whole board using that. just keep applying the same function to each cell over and over, running from row to row. 17:42:10 shachaf: smoothlife. 17:42:36 Ah, maybe I've seen this before. 17:43:40 ais523: in that way, the whole board can be seen as an array of finite state machines, hooked up to a 'sum' unit that adds all of a cell's neighbors together and feeds it to the FSM underneath it. 17:43:51 shachaf: Wolfram generated a few of those, but I'm not sure if any were actually studied from a programming point of view 17:44:18 imode: in that sense, a regex isn't an FSM, then 17:44:31 in what way? 17:44:35 as it needs to take input in an entirely different way to be implementable with an FSM 17:44:54 you can think of a regex as a robot that moves around the grid, reading cells, but has a finite amount of internal state 17:45:16 if it can only move in one direction in a straight line, you have a regex amount of power 17:45:22 I'm aware. but if you leave it in place, marching along the string just means "marching in time." 17:45:39 if it can backtrack, it's more powerful than that (potentially even TC if you have two dimensions) 17:45:39 meaning you're continuously reading the neighborhood around you as it evolves. 17:50:31 -!- MrBusiness3 has joined. 17:50:53 I guess if you don't need FTL communication a non-TC rule language would suffice. 17:51:03 or analog states. 17:53:10 -!- MrBismuth has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:18:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:04:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:06:50 -!- rdococ has left ("Leaving"). 19:12:40 -!- zseri has joined. 19:13:42 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:23:05 -!- Remavas has joined. 19:39:19 -!- Antoxyde has joined. 20:26:16 I wonder how hard it'd be to get a "reasonable" approximation of something like gravity or magnetism in a CA. 20:31:02 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 20:43:00 -!- Cale has joined. 20:45:51 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 20:47:45 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:54:47 imode, hard b/c there's no galilean invariance in a ca 20:54:53 and they're discretised 20:54:54 and local 20:58:20 -!- jaboja has joined. 21:11:00 Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty easy to make something fall in a given direction, but I imagine you'd run into limits regarding the neighborhoods of each cell. instead of orbits you'd get everything just pushing towards the gravity source. 21:11:36 i remember voraciously reading everything i could find on this, probably nearly a decade ago now 21:11:47 i don't think anyone had a decent model of gravity in a CA 21:12:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:13:08 yeah. I don't know what other "games" do, but something like The Powder Toy treats the world state as a set of particles rather than a grid with cells. 21:14:28 yes, it's extremely non-CA 21:16:14 I know you can do a sort of gradient, where if you place a "black hole" state in one cell, it'll spawn a bunch of force cells around it that point towards it with a certain strength, but at that point you might as well go with particles. 21:31:43 modelling motion in a ca is hard in general because motion is all about 'hidden' state 21:33:10 yeah.. 21:35:06 you can try to model it via afterimages and a sort of type+force state model. 21:35:36 yes but you discard so much parsimony in doing that that i've never really seen the point 21:35:49 yeah. you might as well take the high road and just do sparse particles. 21:45:00 `pbflist 21:45:01 pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas 21:49:02 `? pbflist 21:49:03 pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/ 21:53:46 good lord they're getting racy 22:00:42 -!- MDude has joined. 22:01:21 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:03:13 -!- FreeFull has joined. 22:06:07 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:07:36 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:08:40 I found another of these cases when searching for "all" in a search web interface doesn't work, you have to choose a specific category. Aleph library catalog of MTA Kvt, entered an ISSN number to the single-field search form, leave default "any field" gives no hits, but if I choose "ISSN" instead, it does work. 22:09:26 What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't understand what "any field" is, then don't make the fucking selection box say that! Say "some random fields" or "author or title" or just exclude it entirely. 22:10:08 URL of catalog is http://opac.mtak.hu 22:17:13 -!- Antoxyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:19:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:29:21 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:38:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:50:15 -!- jaboja has joined. 23:00:04 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:16:56 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 23:21:58 -!- boily has joined. 23:28:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:30:50 boily!!! 23:31:00 ithought u were ded 23:42:58 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:43:15 -!- ^v has joined. 23:50:18 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:53:54 QUINTHELLOPIA! 23:53:58 I was on vacation. 23:54:02 were you postcarded? 23:55:49 -!- ^v has joined. 23:57:54 -!- jaboja has joined.