< 1506470672 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506470883 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506471415 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506471813 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506471839 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506471942 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506472203 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506472381 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506473050 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: ROOM CHICKEN < 1506473674 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506473928 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506474059 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506474372 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506474971 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506474976 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1506474978 0 :callforjudgement!?@? NICK :ais523 < 1506475172 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506475584 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506475597 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :golly's sourceforge page goes down a lot. < 1506475633 0 :Hooloovo0!znc@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish they updated the android version < 1506475652 0 :Hooloovo0!znc@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pretty nifty < 1506475772 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1506475850 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wanting to figure out how it handles so many CAs of different rulesets. < 1506475854 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e not lifelike. < 1506475984 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506476062 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Thenewcomposer 5* 10New user account < 1506476185 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506476257 0 :Cale!~cale@pool-100-37-183-165.nycmny.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506476491 0 :Hooloovo0!znc@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's rule files < 1506476502 0 :Hooloovo0!znc@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall very much about them, but they're just text files < 1506476517 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I'm looking for documentation on them though. < 1506476525 0 :Hooloovo0!znc@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're documented somewhere I think, maybe on the forums? < 1506476537 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506476547 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should be written in SMETANA, really :-P < 1506476558 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wrong language < 1506476561 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMETANA? :P < 1506476576 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the CA description language from catseye? < 1506476582 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't SMETANA < 1506476589 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53140&oldid=53117 5* 03Thenewcomposer 5* (+234) 10/* Introductions */ < 1506476679 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ALPACA < 1506476730 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. < 1506476745 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're vaguely similar names, I guess < 1506476758 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :all caps, end in "A". :P < 1506476762 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506476909 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :having played BOTW recently I've been drawing things up related to emergent systems. < 1506476918 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506476962 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: BOTW is one of those examples where a game developer has decided "I don't care if this game becomes an emergent system, I'm just going to live with whatever it comes up with" < 1506476964 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering CAs are just a bunch of FSMs with their inputs and outputs linked four ways, I'm experimenting with what I can make. < 1506476979 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pretty much. < 1506477044 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506477185 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's excellent for it < 1506477217 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506477356 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :space in a CA is kind of like those little LCD games, where the play field is already mapped out and the control logic just lights parts of it up depending on the game state. < 1506477411 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting a little "particle" to move around must be interesting. < 1506477450 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506478007 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506479029 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Minim14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53141 5* 03Thenewcomposer 5* (+5683) 10Created page with "= Minim: A Simple, Low Level, Interpreted Language Minim was == HELLO WORLD == ;;; START HELLO WORLD
[1 @ 13] = "Hello, World!\n". ; Put the string in memory [0] = 1...." < 1506480349 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506480423 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506480783 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506481269 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506481547 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1506483297 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506483324 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506483598 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1506483753 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506485735 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506486114 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1506486992 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506487170 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506487272 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506487997 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506489306 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506489825 0 :\oren\_!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506489877 0 :diginet_!~diginet@107.170.146.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506489893 0 :alercah_!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490172 0 :puck1pedia!~puck@puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490190 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :diginet!~diginet@107.170.146.29 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :fractal!fractal@unaffiliated/scounder QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :catern!~catern@catern.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :trn!jhj@prone.ws QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :pelegreno!~cinch@107.170.175.57 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :BooK!~book@klonk.bruhat-souche.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1506490190 0 :diginet_!?@? NICK :diginet < 1506490199 0 :catern_!~catern@catern.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490200 0 :catern_!?@? NICK :catern < 1506490255 0 :puck1pedia!?@? NICK :puckipedia < 1506490296 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490332 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506490350 0 :BooK!~book@klonk.bruhat-souche.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490357 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490447 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506490515 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490525 0 :pelegreno!~cinch@107.170.175.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490564 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1506490701 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490814 0 :alercah_!?@? NICK :alercah < 1506490918 0 :fractal!fractal@unaffiliated/scounder JOIN :#esoteric < 1506490949 0 :trn!jhj@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric < 1506493122 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506493507 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506493748 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506495012 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506495455 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506495716 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1506495854 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1506496001 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506496200 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1506496765 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506497062 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506497268 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-600-163.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506497491 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1506497764 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1506498874 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1506499464 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-600-163.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506499478 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506505418 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506505563 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506505939 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1506506584 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1506508116 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506509077 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506511620 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506513997 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: WAVE CHICKEN < 1506514324 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506514357 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506514607 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506515692 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506515958 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506518928 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1506521490 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506522579 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506523016 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-84-220.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506523111 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506523121 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-84-220.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1506523180 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506523202 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-4-236.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506523226 0 :Slereah!?@? NICK :Guest65841 < 1506523281 0 :Slereah__!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-84-220.w2-5.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506523315 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just figured out a new twist on the esoteric language I'm trying to make. This will make my work harder, but it may be worth it. < 1506523344 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My work as in writing documentation, reference implementation, and example programs.) < 1506523362 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the twist? < 1506525272 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506525368 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell yet because the language is still secret < 1506525568 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally disagree with the statement of today's xkcd < 1506525623 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The news reporters always want to have lab coat guys shown on screen. So they interview an astronomer for every solar eclipse, a mathematician every time someone wins the lottery (blackboard instead of lab coat that time), < 1506525664 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a virologist and vulcanologist and robot engineer and all that sort of dangerous sounding profession for all the most boring fake news they invent. < 1506525686 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's exactly when they ask apparently boring scientists when we should worry that there's something scary going on. < 1506526411 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506526602 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"breaking news" != "news" (how many unexpected solar eclipses have you experienced?) < 1506526617 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the scale is totally arbitrary even with that considered. < 1506526645 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ok, but even given that < 1506526687 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also anything sun related is very likely to be a total extinction event; those aren't really worth worrying about in my view) < 1506526733 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: a particularly bad solar storm could do a lot of damage without causing a total extinction < 1506526739 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, when they happen and can no longer be prevented ;) < 1506526745 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: true < 1506526806 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit stupid to attach it to a scientific field. A breaking news event involving a virologist could be a cure for HIV. < 1506526931 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( There are no absolute truths. ) < 1506526945 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1506526997 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: or just some other daily story about which parents don't want their children to get the flu shot and asking the virologist for a thousandth time why the flu shot is important to stop spreading the epidemic to other people and stuff < 1506527041 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strip says "local reporters interviewing scientists about a breaking news story" < 1506527135 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1506527188 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess there's a puzzle there... what concrete event(s) did Randall have in mind when creating this ranking? < 1506527206 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1506527222 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1506527252 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506527322 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506528381 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506528402 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506528418 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506528812 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by the way, someone from FSF replied to my email about the licencing question, but didn't say anything useful. < 1506528822 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, a pity < 1506528885 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically they confirmed that, sure, the licenses are written with lawyers involved trying to make it a global license, so it should work anywhere. < 1506528898 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not a specific legal opinion or anything that would directly answer me. < 1506528920 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :given how many bugs there are in the GPLv2, I'm not convinced that their lawyers are all that good < 1506528930 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the GPLv3 is much better, but it had a really long public review period) < 1506528966 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure how many of those are actual bugs, as opposed to just problems that didn't exist back when v2 was written and couldn't have been foreseen reasonably. < 1506529029 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But obviously the FSF already says that v3 is better than v2, so there's no point complaining to _them_ about bugs in v2 only. < 1506529094 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1506529104 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's really important to remember that the FSF is ideological first < 1506529327 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the v2 is from 1991. The laws have genuinely changed since. The whole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_Agreement global international convention is from 1995, and it took years after that for countries to agree to it, < 1506529345 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why the Hungarian law I link to is dated to 1999 (but modified since) in first place. < 1506529412 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, in particular, the section 43.4 that talks about geographical area was modified in 2011, let me see the version history of that one if I can. < 1506529690 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think the free version history info on net.jogtar.hu doesn't go back to that < 1506530921 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506532016 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506532306 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. does describing any arbitrary cellular automata require a turing complete language? < 1506532319 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it does. :P < 1506532331 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506532394 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506532564 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: it depends on how you define cellular automata, possibly? < 1506532586 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it also depends on how you define the description < 1506532610 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpaca is not TC because it can't express an infinite loop (it's only usable for producing interpreters as output, not interpreting directly) < 1506532620 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if alpaca is a cellular automaton description language, so is cat < 1506532641 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506532718 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :For whatever reason, I feel afraid of talking here. < 1506532727 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :say I hand you an arbitrary CA with some behavior. for any behavior I could possibly hand to you, I want you to re-create the rules followed by every cell in any way you'd like. does this require a turing complete language? < 1506532763 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gut says no, because why would it? the board's state is, well, the machine state. you could describe most behaviors with just an FSM. < 1506532785 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be interesting to find a counterexample. < 1506532791 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: what are the inputs and the outputs to the program in the language that you're not sure whether it's TC? < 1506532806 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell, either the output is a program that emulates the CA, in which case trivially the language doesn't need to be TC < 1506532817 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else the program itself emulates the CA, in which case it's TC because some CAs are TC < 1506532829 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem like you have something else in mind, but I'm not sure what < 1506532915 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, alternative description. I write a CA simulator that supports black-box functions for rules. board state + coordinates for the currently active cell go into the black box, resulting cell state comes out. < 1506532957 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a rule set that necessitates that whatever's in the black box use a turing complete language? < 1506532961 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :your program now takes an infinite amount of input, which causes the normal definitions of TCness to break down < 1506532987 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it's hard to say what being turing-complete even means in that context < 1506532989 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :...nowhere did I mention infinite. try a 30x30 grid. < 1506532999 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's not hard to extrapolate what I'm talking about here. < 1506533004 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even hard to interpret. < 1506533008 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you only have a finite portion of the grid as input, then you can trivially just use a lookup table < 1506533013 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you only have finitely many possible inputs < 1506533023 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the program itself is deterministic < 1506533044 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :the input grid could be the neighborhood of the cell < 1506533056 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it could. < 1506533071 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://arin.ga/Q5kTWT my amazing new text editor < 1506533071 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case, what rules would break the idea of a lookup table. < 1506533096 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you'd need infinitely many states per cell (e.g. an analog CA) < 1506533112 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, an analog CA < 1506533116 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else you'd need to look at an arbitrary amount of context (e.g. in RUBE, a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates) < 1506533146 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506533156 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what that says to me is "anything past the neighborhood of the cell". < 1506533234 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually interesting. if a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates, what's stopping me from defining an FSM that takes that into account, and if the dozer pushes the first crate, you swap the pushed crate's state to "crate, pushed left". < 1506533279 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :That becomes difficult to interpret < 1506533281 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the crates next to that pushed crate take note of that and alter their own states. then near the end of the chain, the empty spot just turns into a crate... < 1506533285 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: it's not a finite state machine because a single crate has to keep looking left as long as there are crates, to see if it finds a dozer or empty space < 1506533293 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have infinitely many states to deal with < 1506533324 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make it into a CA with "speed of light" propagation of data rather than instantaneous < 1506533325 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not from what I can see. it can still be defined by local rules. < 1506533331 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. by having the dozer start a vibration < 1506533334 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1506533341 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was intending to describe above. < 1506533345 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the crates will keep moving for some time even if you remove the dozer < 1506533374 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :say > is our dozer, # is our crate, and @ is "crate, moving right." < 1506533439 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :>### is our initial state. say the dozer pushes the first crate. the next state would be >@##. the state after would be >@@#. after that, >@@@. after that, >@@ #. after that, >@ ##. after that, > ###. < 1506533456 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't take a turing complete language to describe. < 1506533469 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: yes but it's much slower than actual RUBE < 1506533476 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in RUBE, you can push an entire sequence of crates in a single tick < 1506533479 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, given. :P < 1506533488 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is necessary in several Rubicon levels as a method of fast long-distance communication < 1506533512 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in speed, I'm interested in requirements. < 1506533546 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the speed affects the semantics of a CA < 1506533551 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because multiple things go on at once < 1506533553 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true. propagation. < 1506533593 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting, though. so you do need a TC language to account for "faster-than-light" travel. < 1506533602 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder if there's any way around that. < 1506533613 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't need to be TC specifically, just an FSM is not good enough < 1506533625 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, regular expressions are good enough for this and yet sub-TC < 1506533646 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. pretty much anything that has the capability to expand the neighborhood of a given cell can do that. < 1506533780 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :..wait, regexes are FSMs. < 1506533825 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, they are good enough for this by your word. :P < 1506533872 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: different level of FSMs < 1506533883 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a regex processes input as it reads it < 1506533897 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the FSMs we were talking about earlier just have a single input and aren't applied iteratively to it < 1506533949 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what you're talking about because both march along iteratively along their respective inputs. < 1506533957 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :be it the board or the string they're fed. < 1506533959 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: take Life as an example < 1506533986 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algorithm for calculating one cell there is based on having one output for each of the 512 possible inputs (each of which is the state of the cell and adjacent cells) < 1506534018 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not typically based on reading the cells one at a time and having an internal state that updates with each cell read; that'd be substantially more complex as you'd need to count the cells to know which one was the central one < 1506534060 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could describe life as an FSM, because the transition between "alive" and "dead" depends on the sum of its neighbors, which can be fed as input to the FSM. < 1506534110 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like a cellular automaton where instead of discrete cells you have a continuous function? < 1506534120 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also not hard to do naive iteration over the whole board using that. just keep applying the same function to each cell over and over, running from row to row. < 1506534130 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: smoothlife. < 1506534156 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, maybe I've seen this before. < 1506534220 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in that way, the whole board can be seen as an array of finite state machines, hooked up to a 'sum' unit that adds all of a cell's neighbors together and feeds it to the FSM underneath it. < 1506534231 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Wolfram generated a few of those, but I'm not sure if any were actually studied from a programming point of view < 1506534258 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: in that sense, a regex isn't an FSM, then < 1506534271 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what way? < 1506534275 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it needs to take input in an entirely different way to be implementable with an FSM < 1506534294 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of a regex as a robot that moves around the grid, reading cells, but has a finite amount of internal state < 1506534316 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can only move in one direction in a straight line, you have a regex amount of power < 1506534322 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware. but if you leave it in place, marching along the string just means "marching in time." < 1506534339 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can backtrack, it's more powerful than that (potentially even TC if you have two dimensions) < 1506534339 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning you're continuously reading the neighborhood around you as it evolves. < 1506534631 0 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1506534653 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you don't need FTL communication a non-TC rule language would suffice. < 1506534663 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or analog states. < 1506534790 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1506536333 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506539045 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcqplni9cagmzi.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1506539210 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1506539560 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C8AD.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1506539622 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506540185 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1506541159 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-600-163.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506543976 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how hard it'd be to get a "reasonable" approximation of something like gravity or magnetism in a CA. < 1506544262 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1506544980 0 :Cale!~cale@pool-100-37-183-165.nycmny.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506545151 0 :MDude!~MDude@pa-67-234-100-233.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com) < 1506545265 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C8AD.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1506545687 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, hard b/c there's no galilean invariance in a ca < 1506545693 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're discretised < 1506545694 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :and local < 1506545900 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506546660 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty easy to make something fall in a given direction, but I imagine you'd run into limits regarding the neighborhoods of each cell. instead of orbits you'd get everything just pushing towards the gravity source. < 1506546696 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember voraciously reading everything i could find on this, probably nearly a decade ago now < 1506546707 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think anyone had a decent model of gravity in a CA < 1506546733 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1506546788 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I don't know what other "games" do, but something like The Powder Toy treats the world state as a set of particles rather than a grid with cells. < 1506546868 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's extremely non-CA < 1506546974 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can do a sort of gradient, where if you place a "black hole" state in one cell, it'll spawn a bunch of force cells around it that point towards it with a certain strength, but at that point you might as well go with particles. < 1506547903 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :modelling motion in a ca is hard in general because motion is all about 'hidden' state < 1506547990 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah.. < 1506548106 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can try to model it via afterimages and a sort of type+force state model. < 1506548136 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you discard so much parsimony in doing that that i've never really seen the point < 1506548149 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. you might as well take the high road and just do sparse particles. < 1506548700 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pbflist < 1506548701 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas < 1506548942 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? pbflist < 1506548943 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/ < 1506549226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :good lord they're getting racy < 1506549642 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506549681 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506549793 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506549967 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506550056 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506550120 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found another of these cases when searching for "all" in a search web interface doesn't work, you have to choose a specific category. Aleph library catalog of MTA Kvt, entered an ISSN number to the single-field search form, leave default "any field" gives no hits, but if I choose "ISSN" instead, it does work. < 1506550166 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't understand what "any field" is, then don't make the fucking selection box say that! Say "some random fields" or "author or title" or just exclude it entirely. < 1506550208 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :URL of catalog is http://opac.mtak.hu < 1506550633 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-600-163.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506550788 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1506551361 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506551888 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcqplni9cagmzi.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506552615 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506553204 0 :Cale!~cale@pool-100-37-183-165.nycmny.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506554216 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1506554518 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506554927 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506555050 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily!!! < 1506555060 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ithought u were ded < 1506555778 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1506555795 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506556218 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506556434 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUINTHELLOPIA! < 1506556438 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on vacation. < 1506556442 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you postcarded? < 1506556549 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506556674 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric