< 1506297602 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in < 1506297617 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some map data structures support iteration < 1506297620 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506297668 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans; < 1506297690 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface. < 1506297707 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean no standard one? < 1506297761 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no. I mean not in any library I know of, if you want an implementation that's both portable and its interface isn't restricted to unusable. < 1506297789 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, and of decent performance. I don't count using the file system as a dictionary from filenames. < 1506297804 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the keys and values? < 1506297819 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm typing on my phone right now, haven't even seen the beginning of the conversation < 1506297848 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it was stated yet < 1506297893 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The keys are strings with characters from a limited character set of around 70 characters or so, of ideally arbitrary length, but definitely at least as long that you shouldn't store them in fixed length arrays; < 1506297924 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the values don't matter much, let's say they're indexes into an array in the interpreter's memory. < 1506297946 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can always just use indexes as values like that for any dictionary, and store the real values indirectly. < 1506297993 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it happens to be convenient for this language because there'll be a lot of repeated values, and in many programs some of them will be longer than an index. < 1506298059 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX has search.h < 1506298141 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look that up < 1506298188 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe that doesn't help you. < 1506298242 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just does search. < 1506298250 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo just use c++ < 1506298352 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I should look in Knuth's free software (TeX, Metafont, MMIXware, Standford Graph Base). Maybe they have a suitable implementation. < 1506298369 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hsearch, that's the one I was thinking of. < 1506298410 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First a hash table must be created using hcreate(). The argument nel specifies the maximum number of entries in the table. (This maximum cannot be changed later, so choose it wisely.)" < 1506298446 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a pretty scow library. < 1506298511 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at the search tree functions in GNU libc, which may overlap with this. I found that they had a really bad interface, one that seriously limits how you can use them. I thought they were specific to GNU libc though, and GNU libc is very non-portable. < 1506298542 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google c hash table < 1506298543 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://gist.github.com/tonious/1377667 < 1506298557 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, it runs on Linux and Hurd, and needs a wizard to compile it, despite that the GNU GPL explicitly forbids distributing a program in a state where ordinary people can't compile it.) < 1506298569 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just use something like that. < 1506298761 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The POSIX search.h functions, both the hash and the tree ones, are limited to one hash table or tree in the entire program, and don't allow ordered access (lower_bound). That would technically still allow implementing my language, but I dislike that on principle. < 1506298796 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're awful, ignore whatever I said about them. < 1506298807 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it requires a global comparison function with no cookie argument, like qsort. < 1506298811 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. < 1506298858 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Older versions of gcc might have an implementation I can steal. < 1506298923 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were looking for a simple implementation. < 1506298935 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that may be the problem. < 1506298971 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then if it's something in an already well-known software, then I could sort of count it as simple in the same way as just using malloc or some other widely used library function as simple. < 1506298987 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the interface you need? < 1506298999 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it's not simple enough. < 1506299080 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Perl has hash tables as a primitive < 1506299082 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506299204 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need one dictionary per interpreter (and one interpreter per process in the reference interpreter), initializing it as empty or some other known state, looking up a string key with a fatal error if it's not present, or inserting a pair in such a way that if it's a new key, the key is copied to a permanent storage array and the tree will reference < 1506299204 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric : that, not my original copy. < 1506299242 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, I don't want to keep a new copy of the key in memory forever each time I overwrite the pair for it in the tree. < 1506299250 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will overwrite values a lot. < 1506299320 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both lookup an insert/overwrite shall be fast. I don't need ordered lookup or iteration. < 1506299368 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no delete? < 1506299395 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally I'd like an interface that easily allows to have multiple instances per process, so that someone can modify the reference interpreter to multiple instances per process, in which case I also need deallocation of the whole dictionary. < 1506299399 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need delete. < 1506299427 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delete would be a nice extra, but I don't insist on it, because I know it complicates implementations a lot. < 1506299449 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you actually want to use delete, then you also need a malloc to store the keys and be able to free them. < 1506299486 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise you'll have two copies of the key in memory when the key gets recreated after deletion. < 1506299499 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be worse than just not deleting anything. < 1506299587 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A malloc/free system is, in theory, on the same order of magnitude to implement efficiently as a dictionary. The main difference is that malloc is available in C, so everyone has it. < 1506299603 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I know perl has one, and so does almost every modern programming language. < 1506299610 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But C is still quite important. < 1506299618 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want it in C? < 1506299638 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some languages, e.g. OCaml, do it via the standard library rather than as a primitive < 1506299666 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Perl's primitive a hash table or a dictionary? < 1506299673 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: " I will write my own implementation for the reference interpreter of the language. / This is partly for eso reasons, because I'll use a somewhat eso dictionary structure, one that's slower than typical implementations although still much faster than linear scans; < 1506299708 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... / and partly because I want to write the reference interpreter in portable C, and there's basically no portable implementation of dictionaries with a C interface." < 1506299722 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: perl's is a hash table < 1506299724 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not ordered < 1506299745 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it's in the standard library for most languages where that distinction is important. < 1506299748 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not being ordered doesn't mean it's a hash table. < 1506299749 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506299773 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby has has tables as a primitive, python has them and I think they're a primitive, < 1506299781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ and rust has them in the standard library. < 1506299790 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ and rust have ordered versions. < 1506299805 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Small14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53124&oldid=52212 5* 03Get52 5* (+1) 10github changed < 1506299806 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but I also know perl implements it as a hash table < 1506299826 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're not even trying to change that, they're just disputing what the Right**TM hash function is to use < 1506299910 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The perl and rust devs are both worried that a hash table can have security problems because in programs that use untrusted data as keys, the people providing that untrusted data can make a denial of service attack by making the hash table perform badly; < 1506299934 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're both trying to solve it by making a hashing function that's both fast and secure, which I think is theoretically impossible, < 1506299966 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what's wrong with siphash? < 1506299989 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the cryptography guys have done serious research about how fast you can make a digest that is probably cryptographically secure, and it's still slower than anything the perl and rust guys are trying, and < 1506300016 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a cryptographically secure hash function (with the key never revealed) is the only way to guarantee no suboptimal performance. < 1506300022 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ < 1506300036 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: there's more than one way to be cryptographically secure < 1506300055 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, and I have no proof and don't know cryptography, so this is just my conjecture < 1506300101 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :siphash is meant to be cryptosecure when used as a MAC (which is the security guarantee you need for a hash table) but not for other uses of a cryptohash < 1506300128 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally think people should just use balanced trees or something like that with performance guaranteed by deterministic bounds for almost every cases when this consideration is relevant, except perhaps in some cases in operating system kernels. < 1506300146 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, the security property it's claimed to have is that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k) < 1506300177 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506300189 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't even chose them that way if you get feedback of the order of hashes of any number of keys you construct? < 1506300224 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, this gets ugly because even that is probably only enough if separate secret keys are used for each hash < 1506300243 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the property's actually slightly stronger; it says that you can't choose X and Y so that siphash(k, X) == siphash(k, Y) unless you know k, even if you know siphash(k, Z) for arbitrary Z < 1506300251 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the attacker can experiment on one hash to make another hash behave badly later < 1506300265 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the idea is that you choose k randomly per program < 1506300272 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by just using the same keys in the order they're in the first hash < 1506300287 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hash tables only break upon hash /collisions/ < 1506300294 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :merely inserting elements in hash order doesn't break must hashing algorithjms < 1506300301 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*most < 1506300391 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but when you have hashes of multiple sizes, then the smaller hashes use shorter hash keys that are made from the longer hash keys in simple ways that allow the attacker to make collisions in the smaller has by learning about the keys in the longer hash < 1506300421 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, if the key for the shorter hash is the upper bits of the keys of the longer hash, then keys close to each other in the large hash will often collide in the large hash, < 1506300440 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other simple methods of creating shorter hash indexes have similar problems. < 1506300455 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506300487 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I understand correctly, in some cases the devs defend from this by using entirely new random salts for each hash table, and each time they resize a hash table too. < 1506300499 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: but now you're adding 2**n elements to the large hash so that you can get n**2 performance adding them to the small hash < 1506300520 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just add 2**n elements to the small hash instead… < 1506300538 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I don't think so. you're adding O(n) elements to one hash to add n elements to a second hash and get O(n) collisions < 1506300591 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might be some other way to defend from this attack that I don't know about though < 1506300604 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: actually, we're both wrong, you're adding O(n) elements to the hash, but only O(sqrt(n)) will have clashing top bits < 1506300616 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the second hash has O(sqrt(n)**2) = O(n) performance < 1506300654 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1506300674 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not convinced, but that sounds more likely than exponential < 1506300755 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An attacker can already force O(sqrt(n)) performance with just one hash after all, under some reasonable conditions. < 1506300820 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. If you say this SIPhash solution could really work, then I should do more reading up on this, < 1506300877 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would be interesting for me to know, even if I just want to avoid the original problem by using either separate passes of sorting and binary search, or a balanced tree or similar dictionary when I can't do that. < 1506300915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This because the cryptographical properties you say SIP provides might be useful for other problems, < 1506300928 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or they might not, I don't know, that's why I'll have to read up about it. < 1506300995 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a particular problem I have in mind that I can so far only solve with similar strong crypto stuff like good message digests, but might have a faster solution under some conditions. < 1506301019 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a balanced tree helps there. < 1506301314 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1506301319 0 :sebbu2!?@? NICK :sebbu < 1506301404 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the problem. My server communicates with multiple parties that I don't trust and that don't trust each other. When any party asks, I must give them a new unique ID token. < 1506301475 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't seem so bad so far < 1506301506 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody shall be able to guess that ID unless I or that party transitively gives information about the ID to them. But also, nobody should be able to examine the tokens to learn about how many tokens I've generated in any time interval, or when any token they see was generated, except that I've generated at least as many tokens so far as they've see < 1506301506 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :n, and at least as many in an interval as they asked for. < 1506301550 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The parties may learn about some of this from timing attacks, which seems very expensive to avoid, but they shouldn't learn such information directly from examining any number of tokens. < 1506301575 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506301583 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One solution for this is to use 256 bit long cryptographically secure uniform random strings as tokens. < 1506301629 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are well-tested libraries for doing that, and it's essentially as hard as computing one or two 256 bit long message digests. < 1506301646 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a solution for this involving just sequence numbers and no cryptographic operations. < 1506301723 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might or might not be crypto solutions that are easier than a HMAC, and this is what I should find out. < 1506301745 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or faster than a HMAC, or even faster than a message digest, like as fast as a SIP hash or two. < 1506301787 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does my description make sense? < 1506301848 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, you're basically just trying to generate random numbers, but have weaker security requirements < 1506301855 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are hoping that you might have something faster than a CSPRNG? < 1506301887 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what to think. I thought there isn't anything faster than that, but after what you said about SIP hash, I'll have to reexamine that assumption. < 1506301932 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also somewhat fuzzy about where there seem to be two essentially different requirements called cryptographically secure PRNG, < 1506301968 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of which seems to require as many non-pseudo hardware random entropy as bits output, and one that uses much fewer bits than that. < 1506301985 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the full CSPRNG requirements are that a) you can't predict any future outputs or any internal state given all past outputs, b) you can't predict any past outputs given the internal state < 1506302000 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several applications that would typically use a CSPRNG don't actually care about b) < 1506302002 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the impression that the first kind is recommended for generating keys for public key cryptography, but I don't understand why there's a distinction in first place. < 1506302013 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. NH4's RNG is intended to obey a) but definitely does not obey b) < 1506302078 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1506302172 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you want (a) and (b), then you want as much incoming entropy as outgoing; but when you want only (a), then you don't need that? < 1506302198 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this is more to do with security levels < 1506302220 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have a CSPRNG with a 256-bit internal state, you can't then get more than 256 bits of security on keys generated from it < 1506302223 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also don't understand why some crypto libraries only seem to provide the first kind of CSPRNG but not the second, despite that the first kind is slow on many hardware in most cases. < 1506302232 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could just brute-force the CSPRNG itself rather than the resulting key < 1506302347 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but for currently used public key cryptography, such as RSA, the public key itself is much longer than the entropy you need, because you can factor numbers much faster than with brute force, right? So if you generate a 1024 bit key with 256 bit entropy, then the fastest way to factor your key is faster than brute forcing 256 bits of seeds. < 1506302380 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the difference important only for generating more random output than just a single public key? < 1506302404 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, generating several Diffie-Hellman keys? < 1506302414 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, certainly you don't want to generate so many keys on the same seed that brute-forcing the seed is faster than individually factoring the keys < 1506302429 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even for generating multiple symmetric crypto keys. < 1506302461 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason to use RSA nowadays? < 1506302465 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generating lots of symmetric crypto keys comes up a lot with public key cryptography, do you need the stronger guarantee for that? < 1506302494 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think this applies not only to RSA, but also for most other public key schemes used nowadays < 1506302507 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure though. < 1506302684 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so is the weaker CSPRNG guarantee enough for the unique ID problem I asked? < 1506302698 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'd think so < 1506302699 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And does a proper implementation of the weaker CSPRNG need two or just one calls to a digest? I guess I can find that out by reading the source code of tomcrypt < 1506302710 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I'd be surprised if a security audit told you off for using /dev/urandom there < 1506302715 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you for the explanation < 1506302715 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I'm not a crypto expert < 1506302718 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I may be wrong about all this < 1506302744 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This helped. < 1506302758 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll leave soon because it's late. < 1506303187 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1506303215 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a hash table implementation without delete support. Seems pretty straightforward. < 1506303240 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'd never implemented it before because I don't like hash tables that much. < 1506303345 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( did you make a hash of it ) < 1506303411 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but it still makes the implementation longer < 1506303461 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506303474 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eep, tunes was away for nearly a day < 1506303516 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, clog < 1506303553 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1506303568 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506303704 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506304010 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506304082 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1506304232 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What tricks are there for implementing key-value maps efficiently other than ordering and hashing? < 1506304271 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I know one trick that requires ordering but not anything that looks like a tree, and I'll try to use that in my reference implementation. < 1506304284 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a prefix tree is another popular one. < 1506304286 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend it for most non-eso purposes though. < 1506304299 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your trick? < 1506304303 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A prefix tree still counts as ordering. < 1506304318 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that an array that you binary search still looks like a tree < 1506304333 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in that case this still looks like a tree. < 1506304339 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, prefix structure is more than order structure < 1506304362 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < function isn't sufficient to implement a prefix tree < 1506304379 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also using prefix trees you can sort in linear time? < 1506304385 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1506304400 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more than order structure, sure, but then a balanced tree or a treap or a self-balancing tree is also more than order structure I think. < 1506304412 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any cellular automata software that allows arbitrary spaces? as in, CAs on arbitrary graphs or implicit spaces or.. something. < 1506304421 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about the structure of the keys themselves < 1506304466 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: my trick (and I have invented this independetly but I think it's known) is to use a set of sorted arrays of key-value pairs with power of two size, no two of the same size. < 1506304487 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: prefix trees are basically an optimized version of radix sort < 1506304492 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to find an element, find it in each array, which takes O(log**2 n) time < 1506304500 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're O(n) if you have a fixed number of possible keys < 1506304527 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Oh, sure, that's a good trick < 1506304538 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest < 1506304546 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that's basically a trie, isn't it? < 1506304552 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though you can do it more generally than powers of two, and sometimes there are benefits to other counting systems < 1506304565 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example skew binary works well < 1506304596 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this takes amortized O(log**2 n) time < 1506304598 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also the rough idea behind databases like Bigtable? < 1506304609 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to insert an element, add a length 1 array, then while there are two arrays of the same size, merge those two arrays to an array twice the size, keeping duplicate keys but keeping track of which one is newest. < 1506304623 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this also helps remove an element. < 1506304667 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm typing on my phone so I can't type very quickly < 1506304680 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'm not sure. I know this method also lets you keep snapshots of older versions of the dictionary cheaply, which I think Bigtable or some such db promises, but there are other ways to provide that, and I don't know how they actually implement it. < 1506304693 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think it's similar to a trie. < 1506304709 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, no, I misunderstood how it works < 1506304715 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more like a skiplist, but not the same < 1506304724 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, skiplists are very similar and more popular. < 1506304748 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iirc skiplists differ in that they need randomness. < 1506304765 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this faster at accessing more recently added data? that might be a useful property in some cases < 1506304768 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike a trie, this structure only needs key comparisons,. < 1506304776 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what this data structure is called < 1506304791 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know any name for it either < 1506304826 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: theoretically yes, but it's so slow in general even for accessing recently added data that if you want that, you'll still use balanced tree or self-balancing tree structures < 1506304861 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this structure can be deamortized, which you need to make persistent snapshots actually, but that makes the implementation more complicated < 1506304887 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :deamortized as in making a version that guarantees non-amortized deterministic upper bound on insertion time < 1506304970 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it can be deamortized while still being O(log**2 n) time, as opposed to O(log**3 n) which you might think if you just know that an array can be deamortized to a complete binary tree with log speed loss < 1506305089 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: How about "cache oblivious lookahead arrays", or "fractal trees"? < 1506305105 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even seen a good reference for this data structure, even one that doesn't give it a nice name. In particular, I don't think it's in the current TAOCP, nor in the Chris Okasaki persistent data structures book, nor in anywhere else.\ < 1506305116 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I've no idea what those are < 1506305130 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd look them up but it's very annoying in my < 1506305133 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my phone < 1506305157 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that the thing you're describing? < 1506305177 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: anyway, deamortizing is easy, just do the merges with the steps delayed compared to one another just fast enough that each merge result is ready by the time you have to merge that one with a new array < 1506305194 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in each step, do a constant number of merge steps at each level < 1506305213 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can do a constant number of merge steps total < 1506305259 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bad part of this structure is that lookup still guarantees only O(log**2 n) but Omega(log n) time, < 1506305296 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think you can fix that without turning it into some other structure in disguise with extra unnecessary complications added. < 1506305306 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf < 1506305311 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as skiplists. < 1506305351 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like how skip lists are randomized < 1506305362 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's too late for me to try to read that now, but thanks for the reference, if I don't get back to it, feel free to point it out again < 1506305392 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell wob_jonas See these slides for example http://ekmett.github.io/presentations/Cache-Oblivious%20Data%20Structures.pdf < 1506305392 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1506305405 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, are you on the list? < 1506305417 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dontaskdonttelllist < 1506305418 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't work, it will ping me when I type the next line, such as this one < 1506305418 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​ < 1506305430 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, no < 1506305430 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not later < 1506305435 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it'll work < 1506305444 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time someone else sends you a message < 1506305450 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1506305494 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needn't have typed that line though. Good night. < 1506305498 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1855@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.85 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1506307930 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written hash table codes that are without deletions < 1506308206 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506308482 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506308955 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1506310096 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506310364 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506311599 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506311913 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainflub14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53125 5* 03Snorepion 5* (+2550) 10Created page with "'''Brainflub''' is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:Snorepion|Snorepion]]. While its documentation is written jokingly, it isn't as much of a joke as some ot..." < 1506311930 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Snorepion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53126 5* 03Snorepion 5* (+17) 10Created page with "I hate red links." < 1506311944 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User talk:Snorepion14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53127 5* 03Snorepion 5* (+13) 10Created page with "==Talk here==" < 1506313687 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506315227 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1506316570 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506316882 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506317581 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Have you written hash table codes that are with deletions? < 1506317640 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not remember < 1506319843 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506320113 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506320222 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07SELECT.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53128&oldid=46400 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-3) 10 < 1506320570 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07SELECT.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53129&oldid=53128 5* 03Quintopia 5* (-49) 10That is a wasteful way to do natural log. < 1506320693 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07SELECT.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53130&oldid=53129 5* 03Quintopia 5* (+21) 10/* Real Part and Imaginary Part */ < 1506320911 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506320929 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massages-loud < 1506320930 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf said 4d 4h 41m 52s ago: I downgraded oerjan to twice punned, because he did notice the pun. < 1506320990 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07SELECT.14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53131&oldid=53130 5* 03Quintopia 5* (+29) 10/* Trigonometry */ < 1506321512 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://youtu.be/7rmTFxyjSpk < 1506322331 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@METAR PAMR < 1506322332 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1506322343 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot: metar PAMR < 1506322345 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1506322350 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget how lambdabot works < 1506322352 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar PAMR < 1506322352 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAMR 250453Z 19010G16KT 10SM BKN060 10/06 A2963 RMK AO2 SLP035 T01000061 $ < 1506322356 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go < 1506322932 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1506323117 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar ETAR < 1506323118 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :ETAR 250556Z 11003KT 0600 R27/0500V0900 FG VV002 07/07 A3014 RMK AO2A CIG 001 RWY08 SLP214 T00700070 10070 20032 53000 $ < 1506323144 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`airport ETAR < 1506323146 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ramstein Ab (RMS, ETAR) \ Queretaro Intercontinental (QRO, MMQT) \ Seletar (XSP, WSSL) < 1506323186 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls bin/*air* < 1506323187 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/airport \ bin/airport-lookup < 1506323207 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-452-73.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506323211 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/airport < 1506323211 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :airport-lookup any "$*" < 1506323224 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep share airport-lookup < 1506323225 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep: airport-lookup: No such file or directory < 1506323233 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep share bin/airport-lookup < 1506323234 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with open('share/airports.dat', 'rb') as datafile: < 1506323254 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` grep ETAR share/airports.dat < 1506323255 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :751,"Ramstein Ab","Ramstein","Germany","RMS","ETAR",49.436911,7.600283,776,1,"E","Europe/Berlin" < 1506323342 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most metal metar, obviously < 1506323445 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1506323514 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellørjan. < 1506323688 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good mornily. < 1506323882 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? rms < 1506323883 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rms? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1506323924 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar META < 1506323924 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :No result. < 1506323930 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYUL < 1506323931 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYUL 250600Z 22004KT 15SM FEW030 23/21 A3004 RMK CF1 CF TR SLP172 DENSITY ALT 1000FT < 1506323932 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar MTAR < 1506323933 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :No result. < 1506323938 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar MEAR < 1506323939 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :No result. < 1506323944 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :23/21. the humidity. < 1506323944 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar METR < 1506323945 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :No result. < 1506323991 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :itym "oh the humidity" hth < 1506324023 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :twim. < 1506324066 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to do some circadian realignment. < 1506324079 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: TYPED CHICKEN < 1506324982 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1506325934 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506325944 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1506326777 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-452-73.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506326845 0 :J_Arcane!sid119274@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuqejsljqjmivvsb QUIT : < 1506326916 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1506327136 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdnnz2mk7c3rb3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1506327344 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506327439 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:94d6:486f:93e5:e590 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506327736 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1506327921 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1506329971 0 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@2a03:b0c0:0:1010::ca:e001 QUIT :K-Lined < 1506330141 0 :prooftechnique!~prooftech@185.14.184.86 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506331550 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506331561 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some corrections about the dictionary data structure I talked about yesterday. < 1506331619 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, about persistence. If you just want to keep snapshots of some or all earlier states of the dictionary, then use the original version. Don't deamortize it the way I suggested, because deamortizing just makes it harder to use persistently, because the deamortized version needs in-place writable arrays, the ordinary version does'nt. < 1506331708 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is enough if eg. you want to store all states of a nethack game in such a way that you can play it back (not that I recommend using this structure in practice). < 1506331752 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you need a persistent data structure that you can revert (or even fork), then this gets ugly, and I don't know how best to do it. The easiest way is probably to just not use this data structure and use a B-tree instead. < 1506331774 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second. Like many other binary data structures, this one has a fibonacci version. < 1506331807 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally I should use the fibonacci version for eso purposes. In practice, that would screw with my mind too much so I'd be unable to write a correct implementation, so I might not do that. < 1506331854 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Third, name. If this data structure doesn't yet have a good name, then I call it a plywood, because it's made of layers (of different sized arrays), and is a cheap substitute for real solid trees. < 1506332053 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't I give you a name yesterday? < 1506332067 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cache-oblivious lookahead array" < 1506332075 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this the same thing as COLA or not? < 1506332077 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh, that turned out to be this structure? < 1506332085 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I haven't read the slides you linked to yet < 1506332087 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1506332087 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will read them < 1506332399 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18bf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.191 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1506332823 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506332858 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506336655 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh no. these slides are basically stored as bitmaps. wtf. < 1506336797 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:94d6:486f:93e5:e590 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1506339200 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host109-150-0-85.range109-150.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506339535 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506340180 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506340355 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That reminds me. If I eventually want to buy an internet domain name for my personal stuff, if I use a distinctive enough name, what top-level domain do you think is the best to put it under? Possibilities can include .org, .net, .com, .xyz < 1506340374 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Don't hold your breath, this won't happen any time soon, and the answer might change by that time.) < 1506342126 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google lambdabot < 1506342127 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plugin `search' failed with: Network.Socket.connect: : does not exist (No route to host) < 1506342135 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :o-kay. < 1506342139 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google lambdabot < 1506342140 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot < 1506342490 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it still needs that workaround (permanently add an IPv6 neighbour). I wonder whose bug that is. < 1506342528 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: "I wonder whose bug that is" => ah yes, those are the best bugs < 1506342628 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not lambdabot's... it's more low-level than that (I could reproduce it with curl) < 1506342652 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's either the Linux kernel or the configuration of the local router. < 1506344693 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506344793 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506345025 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1506345363 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1506345468 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The boost license FAQ "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" has two interesting tidbits. < 1506345478 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection." < 1506345517 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption. The more of Boost is uniformly copyrighted and licensed, the less problem people will have with mounting a Boost release CD on a corporate server." < 1506345543 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of these make sense in a twisted legal sort of way in retrospect, but I wouldn't have guessed them. < 1506348140 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506348229 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Client Quit < 1506348310 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506349142 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07InterpretMe14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53132&oldid=49652 5* 03Zseri 5* (+7) 10Category < 1506349341 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1506349440 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:f8fe:17c7:a87f:8347 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506349802 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07XTW14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53133&oldid=53115 5* 03Zseri 5* (+11) 10+Influence:Terse < 1506349988 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506351193 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506351799 0 :rottytooth!26609942@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.96.153.66 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506352996 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you're right. although I don't like those slides, they do seem to describe the same dictionary data structure as the one I said. < 1506354287 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506354753 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainflub14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53134&oldid=53125 5* 03Snorepion 5* (+18) 10My user page link is still red, updating the page might help < 1506355418 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainflub14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53135&oldid=53134 5* 03Snorepion 5* (-1) 10fix broken link < 1506355597 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506356892 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brainflub14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53136&oldid=53135 5* 03Snorepion 5* (+278) 10/* Examples */ Better hello world < 1506357103 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506357464 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host109-150-0-85.range109-150.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Quit: impomatic < 1506358509 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1506358562 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506359251 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506359268 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1506359379 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-452-73.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1506360136 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host109-150-0-85.range109-150.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506360208 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1506361764 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode! < 1506361936 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1506361965 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi rdococ. < 1506361972 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's things. < 1506362076 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :medium. < 1506362103 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully medium well. :P < 1506362109 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1506362124 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the concept I had of a 'Scope' object, but I have no idea how I'd incorporate that in an interesting manner. < 1506362341 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506362488 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1506362597 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1506362876 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506362940 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1506362997 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506363994 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol world war three is apparently hapening < 1506364022 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit, who knew. < 1506364034 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1506364084 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :North korea says they're gonna start shooting down any american aircraft that come near < 1506364097 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it. I dare them. < 1506364107 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll turn the penninsula into a gulf. < 1506364465 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506364493 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1506364507 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: haven't they said that before? < 1506364559 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: I mean, they bragged before that they have intercontinental ballistic missiles that they can screw their hydrogen bombs onto. if they really had that, would they have to wait for the aircraft to come near? < 1506364595 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are they acting like the Iraqi people who said in the news that a farmer shot down the super modern American stealth aircraft with his bird rifle? < 1506364684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506364695 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much the latter. they released a propaganda video that's... just hilarious. < 1506364749 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that sounds normal. < 1506364775 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it shows them "blowing up" U.S aircraft, ships, etc. < 1506364840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :they said the us had declared war with its actions but that's a surprisingly common state of affairs with north korea, meanwhile the threat to shoot down planes isn't terribly grave because, believe it or not, us planes do not in fact habitually fly over north korea < 1506365021 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might plausibly try, though. something could happen but it's not 'ww3 now' territory < 1506365048 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Chimera14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53137&oldid=17981 5* 03Zseri 5* (+95) 10Categories < 1506365065 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we hit "ww3 now" when they actually strike. < 1506365393 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07XTW14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53138&oldid=53133 5* 03Zseri 5* (+19) 10+Category:2017 < 1506365633 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506367217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, b_jonas, fwiw i've found that by far the best way to get clued up on NK is to follow analysts on twitter < 1506367253 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ankit panda is my go-to guy atm b/c he tweets a lot < 1506367729 0 :Remavas-Hex!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1506367889 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1506368371 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506368867 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, imode: Somehow I doubt that north korea will trigger WW3. Nobody likes them. Sure, China and Russia don't like US messing in the region, but WW3? Probably not < 1506369730 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506369769 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if this was Civilization, then north korea and america would declare war, and then suddenly for no apparent reason india nukes them both < 1506369781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I tried loading one DOS game on my Linux computer and now the level editor is not work properly. It won't save properly, but the game itself is otherwise working OK." => the problem is that the simulated video card and motherboard doesn't behave exactly like the hardware one. < 1506369947 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tunes log is missing for half of the interesting conversation we had yesterday. < 1506370024 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :less than half < 1506370761 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506370887 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: that underflow glitch :P < 1506371028 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506371040 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506371779 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:f8fe:17c7:a87f:8347 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1506372520 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1100 < 1506372521 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1100: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1506372559 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me see < 1506372655 0 :Remavas-Hex!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1506372785 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1506372806 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, so much loot just left there < 1506373347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal, well, my favourite twitter comment on it of the day is: < 1506373365 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So far we have not figured out what they can shoot down, sink or shell and precipitate a full hot war." < 1506373384 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have learned from experience that the us will put up with a lot of shit < 1506373415 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1506373953 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506375083 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, when have you last cleaned your fridge? < 1506375083 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: look, you're trying to lead well, but has not been dispelled! hah, i should have specified: i'm from like 2 hours in this comic... spider-man! will!! die! < 1506375105 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO!!!!! Spidey! < 1506375461 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spider < 1506375462 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spider? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1506375463 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? spiderman < 1506375464 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :spiderman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1506375464 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? ant < 1506375465 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways. < 1506375466 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? antman < 1506375467 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :antman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1506375968 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-452-73.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506376959 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1506377354 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this aint world war three?! lame < 1506377807 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdnnz2mk7c3rb3.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1506377835 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506378071 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1506378074 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD39.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1506378575 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, are you actually a human, or well, it depends on whether the chicken or the egg that I just laid - and haha! < 1506378575 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: to the last, i will grapple with thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! from hell's heart, i stab at thee! < 1506378580 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1506378858 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506378928 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506379018 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1506379018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506379245 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, I haven't seen a loopy fungot in quite a bit. < 1506379245 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you and the dromiceiomimus had a customer is either rude, but as a terminator 2. that was a pretty good... or bad?" each moment we delay, so when i send not to know for sure who i just met! < 1506379360 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1506379363 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host109-150-0-85.range109-150.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1506379468 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1506379779 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1506380014 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1506380057 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the boost license FAQ also tells two interesting things that are sort of obvious in retrospect only < 1506380113 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "http://www.boost.org/users/license.html" "Why is the "disclaimer" paragraph of the license entirely in uppercase? Capitalization of these particular provisions is a US legal mandate for consumer protection." < 1506380138 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "Do I have to copyright/license trivial files? Even a test file that just contains an empty main() should have a copyright. Files without copyrights make corporate lawyers nervous, and that's a barrier to adoption." < 1506380151 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the thing about uppercase license disclaimers, is that the law just says they have to be prominent < 1506380169 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a court case that found that uppercasing the disclaimer when everything else is lowercase (and in the same/similar font) is sufficient < 1506380183 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so everyone uppercases them nowadays because they know that that works < 1506380251 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but at the same time at least we in Hungary also have laws that none of the rules are allowed to be printed in small font, so they can't really just use different font sizes. it's either all caps or bolding, and bolding doesn't easily work in text source code < 1506380284 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about a third of the text of the travel insurance I buy is in bold, sometimes indicating such disclaimers, and sometimes that it's changed since the previous version, and you can't tell which clause is bold for which of those reasons) < 1506380347 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insurance is so complicated. < 1506380398 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, but I read it through, and it basically comes down to being a travel insurance with some extra services that I don't need but I also can practically never use in practice because the disclaimers cover everything < 1506380443 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quit my job last week. So now I need to figure out US health insurance. < 1506380445 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a mess. < 1506380533 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ouch. < 1506380551 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what job are you looking for now, and are you planning to relocate? < 1506380565 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not immediately looking for any job. < 1506380579 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it needn't be immediately < 1506380585 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I get another job or should I be a lazy unemployed bum for a while? < 1506380609 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no plans to move but I might. < 1506380610 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should *look* for a job. it will take some time to find a good job anyway. you don't have to intentionally delay for that. < 1506380625 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But looking for a job is even more stressful than having a job. < 1506380629 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, obviously the way I should ask is how far you're willing to move for a job. < 1506380650 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to move anywhere, I suppose. But this area isn't so bad. < 1506380692 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1506380713 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, where do you recommend? < 1506380757 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One time a company wanted me to move to Istanbul for a job. I guess that was a bit drastic for me. < 1506380805 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think one reason they were in Istanbul was that it was cheaper. Why would I move far away to a place I don't particularly want to live in to work at a job that paid less? < 1506380810 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no idea, I'm in Hungary, but it's not a good place to move to. < 1506380837 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. You don't get payed much here, which is why companies get people to work here. < 1506380896 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If income scales roughly linearly with cost of living, it's better to live in the most expensive place. < 1506380896 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It doesn't, of course. But it might still be better.) < 1506380901 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the qualified workers are moving away from Hungary, but at the same time the companies in western europe figure out they can get half-qualified workers here for much less money than in western europe who work better than the people hired in india for free, so they fire the western europeans and hire teams here. < 1506380979 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1506380995 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like keeping my employer's health insurance will cost me a bit over $500/month. That's a lot but it's less than I was expecting. < 1506381021 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :500 USD per month? that's a LOT < 1506381027 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it give for that price? < 1506381038 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you choose some other health insurance? < 1506381046 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can choose another one. < 1506381046 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I understand it's beneficial while you're working there < 1506381050 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after that < 1506381054 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cheapest I can get would probably cost ~$250/month. < 1506381151 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the fanciest most expensive option because my employer was subsidizing most of it. Maybe that was a mistake. < 1506381157 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds more reasonable, unless you're over 65 years old or something < 1506381182 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it depends on how you treat insurance. < 1506381205 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most important reason to have health insurance is to handle the very expensive cases that cost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. < 1506381234 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure. < 1506381255 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like needing to swap your dialysis filter every two days < 1506381321 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dialysis is covered for everyone in the US, I believe. < 1506381367 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. then expensive patented heart medicine. < 1506381387 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just the general cost of making hospitals work, which is getting more and more expensive. < 1506381389 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something. < 1506381396 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1506381405 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to the hospital for the first time in a decade last month or so. < 1506381421 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had a good time getting X-rays and CT scans and things. < 1506381436 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'm OK, though. Hopefully. < 1506381448 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of those turn out to be less scary than you thought as a child < 1506381518 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out getting water through IV is not such a bad or painful thing as I remembered from when I was nine years old, it's just that every time I had to get that, I was so sick that everything felt like a bad experience. < 1506381544 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you gotten a CT scan? < 1506381545 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having a needle stuck in your arm all day isn't as uncomfortable as I remembered. < 1506381554 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and those aren't as bad as they imply either. < 1506381558 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no needle, is there? < 1506381578 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The doctors warn that it's very loud, and while it's loud, it's not a distracting sort of sound, but a comforting hum. < 1506381589 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting the dye injected was a very odd experience. < 1506381589 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wait, sorry < 1506381592 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's MR scan < 1506381598 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CT scan isn't loud < 1506381602 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confusing stuff < 1506381605 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got both types of scan < 1506381612 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you get the dye? < 1506381615 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CT scan is just an ordinary X-ray, only with a hundred times < 1506381619 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I did get a dye < 1506381619 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :MRIs are obnoxiously loud yeah < 1506381624 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels very warm. I guess you can feel your own circulation. < 1506381644 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they scare you about that too, saying they leave a needle in your arm after the dye because there's a small chance of an allergic reaction to it < 1506381783 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I got dye twice, once for CT, and once for just plain X-ray. Plus radioactive measurement chemical once. < 1506381797 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hungary spent the equivalent of USD 1719 per person on health in 2013, compared with an OECD average of USD 3453." < 1506381800 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So cheap. < 1506381813 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of like radioactive dye, but because they measure the radiation rather than the absorbtion there, it needs only a much smaller dose. < 1506381841 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's the costs the state pays. it doesn't include what people pay for themselves I think. < 1506381883 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's the the total spending. < 1506381888 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it? < 1506381888 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Public sources accounted for 65% of overall health spending, below the OECD average" < 1506381895 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Country-Note-HUNGARY-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf < 1506381897 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok. < 1506381910 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about private health insurance companies? < 1506381920 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :65% sounds believable < 1506381942 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you only measure the costs accounted for, not the black market stuff and tips < 1506382205 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: It seems most convenient to apologise for my connection in the quit message, given how often it comes up… If I immediately reconnect, it's probably because I could send but not receive. < 1506382227 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same source says the US spent $8713/person: https://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Country-Note-UNITED%20STATES-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf < 1506382249 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's yearly, right? < 1506382272 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's in 2013. < 1506382395 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :US politicians are saying a lot of nonsense about health insurance. < 1506382400 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a mess. < 1506382513 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1506382562 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, $500/month is below the US number but way above the Hungarian number. < 1506382610 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1929@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.41 PRIVMSG #esoteric :politicians always say a lot of nonsense. that's their work < 1506382626 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1506382637 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think maybe health insurance is just fundamentally problematic without a lot of regulation (maybe of a form similar to the ACA in the US). < 1506382678 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can it possibly work? < 1506382927 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1506383219 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like the winner's curse? < 1506383343 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric