< 1504569609 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know why the shocklands are good < 1504569653 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas I started playing when Dissension was already out, which is why I don't notice that those weren't first < 1504569672 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I do have some idea about earlier sets, but often forget < 1504569675 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started playing with 9th edition < 1504569679 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stopped early into lorwyn < 1504569709 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i.e. 9th, ravnica block, coldsnap, time spiral block, 10th, and a bit of lorwyn) < 1504569784 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know it was Dissension, not just Guildpact, because the person who introduced me brought Sky Hussar. I have seen people play M:tG before, but I haven't played.) < 1504569816 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dissension is an odd place to start, really < 1504569839 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one "problem" with the original ravnica block is that it only really makes sense as a combined entity, rather than being playable set-by-set < 1504569847 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although dragon's maze is even worse in that respect < 1504569858 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coldsnap may have been out, but only very recently, so I have only seen cards from it a month or two later when I bought my first cards, which was the Coldsnap black-blue theme deck. < 1504569873 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did have one of the most intriguing names ever, though, people were asking for dragon's maze spoilers during rtr, rather than asking for the next set as usual < 1504569883 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect, the black-blue Coldsnap theme deck is a bad one as a beginner product, but obviously I didn't know that. < 1504569891 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't hate Coldsnap as much as most people do < 1504569931 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't hate Coldsnap, I'm just saying it was not good as a first set of cards to buy. < 1504569942 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fine to buy later. < 1504569970 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at this point it doesn't matter. < 1504569972 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people don't like it because it sucked to draft < 1504569987 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although people are bad at figuring out what draft environments are good until Wizards has already stopped supporting them < 1504569990 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have so many cards that one theme deck doesn't matter. < 1504570016 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is probably what lead to the balance issues, Wizards deciding that trying to balance the sets carefully was a waste of money because they move onto the next set anyway before it's figured out < 1504570028 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"supporting" as in you can no longer buy boxes cheap, or only that they are no longer played much in tournaments? < 1504570041 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they both happen around the same time, probably not coincidentally < 1504570074 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when I first started playing Magic, I was under the impression that the game had been continuously refined and optimized over time and would always stay much the same < 1504570075 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it lead to the balance issues which time? I don't think that's happened the last time. It may have happened back ten years ago. < 1504570089 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing the name "ninth edition" made me think "ooh, this has had a lot of work put into it" < 1504570109 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out it's actually a game where they randomly change things every few months to keep it fresh, whether the old things worked or not < 1504570109 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe... yes, that's a bit misleading because the second edition is exactly the same as the first < 1504570149 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :beta and unlimited? < 1504570164 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it starts ABUR4 so I assume alpha and beta are collectively the first edition < 1504570168 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, core sets from ninth to M12 did have a lot of good work put into refining it, perhaps more so then the block expansions < 1504570173 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504570181 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, AB are collectively the first edition < 1504570200 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's silly but they won't change the numbers now < 1504570207 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well tenth was definitely an attempt to mix things up < 1504570209 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the numbers are printed on the core sets from fifth to tenth < 1504570211 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name lightning bolt < 1504570212 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, MED-C, PD2-C < 1504570227 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it was in M10 /and/ M11? I can't be reading that correctly < 1504570234 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope that's right < 1504570238 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :tenth was garbage though < 1504570240 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1504570242 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and it wasn't tenth < 1504570251 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :M10 was when they shook things up < 1504570261 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with numerical core sets is that it's hard to remember which ones are which < 1504570264 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like tenth, but mostly because of nostalgy. M10 might actually be a better set, even with all the new cards. < 1504570275 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :tenth was the core set before M10 < 1504570285 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I know it went tenth, M10 < 1504570346 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504570392 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I don't like about the current direction magic is heading to is that they keep making changes that amount to printing more and more distinct cards per year. this started at approximately coldsnap or tenth edition. they always give very nice sugar-coated explanations of why the particular change is good, but the gross number of new cards per ye < 1504570392 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ar always keeps going up, almost never down. < 1504570421 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of the explanations are even kind of mutually contradictory. < 1504570485 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like that time many years ago when they first raised bus prices to encourage people to travel by train which is cheaper to run, then later they raised train prizes to harmonize mass transport prizes and not disadvantage people who live in places with no train. < 1504570550 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was before the time when they raised the prices of trains that stop at fewer stations, but basically every train stops at fewer stations, so you don't have a real choice. that one was much more obvious because they did it in a single step.) < 1504570563 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a while back in Birmingham, the bus and train companies went through a phase of repeatedly undercutting each other by 10p < 1504570566 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, it couldn't last < 1504570602 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is between cities, not within Budapest, in case that's not clear < 1504570643 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercity train travel in the UK is very expensive except when it's randomly much cheaper < 1504570661 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coach travel can be very reasonable but it's slower < 1504570696 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504570756 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always expensive in Sweden, but there are surprising price differences between different types of trains and buses on the same line, depending on at least whether you forfeit your right to refund your ticket, and whether the price for reservations increases dynamically by time like with international airplane tickets. both of those categories < 1504570756 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't exist here. < 1504570788 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a difference between trains where you need a seat reservation versus no, which is a distinction that exists in Hungary but very often you only have one of those choices < 1504570791 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most train lines in the UK have four price categories: anytime, off-peak, super off-peak, advance < 1504570813 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :having a reservation is orthogonal to this (although it'd be unusual to get an advance ticket without a reservation) < 1504570815 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is partly because south-Sweden is big and has multiple big cities and big airplanes, so there's a lot more train and bus travel than in Hungary < 1504570844 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, many train companies, when selling advance tickets, just give you a ticket saying you're guaranteed a seat but don't allocate any specific seat, to save the trouble of putting the "reserved" signs onto the seats < 1504570896 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, even though you get a seat number, in practice seat reservations work that way on trains in Hungary too (and often in cinemas) < 1504570908 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504570942 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, most passengers and the controllers don't care about the seat numbers unless there's a dispute between passengers < 1504571025 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is unlike airplane tickets or theatre tickets, where people only swap places locally among nearby ones in the same row or when the airplane stewards ask, in theatres because they're more full (a movie is cheap to repeat multiple times for the cinema) and in airplanes partly because of security reasons the airlines insist < 1504571111 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for some reason many people seem to seem to consider different seats in an airplane to have different values, so much that some airlines even sell the right to choose your seat at an extra price and a varying price depending on the position, < 1504571145 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :seats with extra legroom fetch a premium usually < 1504571150 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas on the trains where you can get a seat reservation, usually all seats are equivalent (this is sometimes not true for some trains with no reservation, because those are lower comfort) < 1504571209 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: yeah, but then I don't want extra legroom seat on airplanes because those are usually at the front row so you can't keep your luggage at your feet < 1504571231 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the extra legroom is probably worth more on longer flights though, on which I rarely fly < 1504571270 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on long bus trips, I'll certainly take the extra legroom any time, but that usually just manifests in the difference between a 40 seat bus versus a 50 or 63 seat bus, which you can't really change < 1504571374 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, most long-distance trains have two tiers of seats < 1504571404 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons, although the "third class" name typically isn't used nowadays (they have "first class" and "standard class" or "first class" and "not first class") < 1504571429 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the vast majority of people don't buy first class seats, as they often aren't much better, and when they are, they're often very expensive < 1504571432 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like a topic for #trains, y'all < 1504571442 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's leading to something of a problem because of trains getting fully packed < 1504571450 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the exit row in particular is what I was thinking of < 1504571457 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes they have to open up the first class section, without first class advantages, to normal tickets < 1504571480 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: that has the same problem. no luggage at your feet because it obstructs the emergency exit. < 1504571498 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, of course, but they don't sell that except for very expensively < 1504571502 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's usually been allowed when I've been on flights < 1504571506 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it depends on the route < 1504571538 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the flights I've been on are cheap ones that don't even have first class seats (they do have middle class seats) < 1504571543 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, some do) < 1504571628 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I picked a random off-peak train journey from Birmingham to London to compare, far enough in the future that Advance tickets are still cheap (also on a Saturday so that I don't run into peak time restrictions) < 1504571649 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the class distinction on trains is totally meaningless too these days by the way. most trains only have second class, because people just don't buy first class tickets, so the company just uses originally first class carriages as second class. and the distinction between different trains is much bigger than the class distinction. < 1504571706 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the distinction entirely a few years into the future, it's just that MÁV is a huge company with lots of bureaucracy plus is regulated heavily by the state because it's mostly a monopoly which means even more bureaucracy, so changes take a lot of time. < 1504571707 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it costs £17 (London Midland) / £27 (Virgin) first class, or £6-£8 (London Midland) / £11-16 (Virgin) third class < 1504571717 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's on Advance tickets, which get more expensive the more of them have been bought < 1504571731 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, I'm saying this for trains in Hungary < 1504571738 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check Chiltern < 1504571739 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can totally matter in other countries < 1504571743 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm just interested to compare < 1504571752 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are those on the same train? < 1504571787 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: same set of trains; Virgin and London Midland use similar routes, but London Midland's is less direct and therefore cheaper because it takes longer < 1504571790 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :different classes of trains are very real, although sometimes you have limited choices, but sometimes you do have a real choice, and the price difference may be zero or it may be bigger than the difference between first and second class. < 1504571817 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chiltern is charging £5.50 to £12 on trains during the same set of days < 1504571827 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a notably different route but it's comparable to the other two < 1504571832 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make your own implementation of Magic: the Gathering in computer if you have a better idea. < 1504571852 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, they all go from Birmingham to London, and normally you wouldn't vary the route based on where in London you ended up < 1504571862 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you'd probably have to make a journey within London anyway < 1504571871 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are there ever three distinct classes of carriages on the same train? "third class" in Hungary is something from before I was born < 1504571878 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Chiltern doesn't even seem to have a first class < 1504571890 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: no, basically what happened was that the government decided that trains were too expensive < 1504571900 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so asked trains to introduce third class tickets (that were cheaper than the existing second class) < 1504571907 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :expensive to run or expensive to travel on? < 1504571912 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it wasn't long before second class had vanished altogether because first and third were just more sensible option < 1504571916 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*options < 1504571917 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1504571919 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :expesnive to travel on < 1504571921 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's first and third class < 1504571940 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1504571981 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504572005 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that £5.50 to London on Chiltern is crazy, though < 1504572025 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it's in the middle of the day on a Saturday, in the heart of super off peak time, and it's booked like a month in advance < 1504572056 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hadn't realised that prices that low were actually achievable except on adverts showing the lowest possible price because that's what adverts do < 1504572093 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : known as first class and third class for silly historical reasons <-- the first class gives you a better chance if the train hits an iceberg hth < 1504572116 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on many services, first class is at one end of the train, often the front < 1504572124 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might give you lower chances in the case of a train hitting something < 1504572138 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although london midland put first class in the middle of a middle carriage, normally < 1504573049 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think at least on quite a lot of companies, it's now just first class and "standard class". < 1504573071 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: now as for your game design draft, you don't allow payments of moving a card other than the one that has the mano written on it, right? < 1504573092 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: wasn't planning to, at least to start with < 1504573121 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be possible to find a nondisruptive way eventually, probably as long as the other card moved doesn't touch the tactics track; you'd probably have to ban the card from being manoeuvred itself < 1504573124 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so moving other cards can only be an action, and there are no restrictions on how much they can move a card at the same priority, and you just ignore impossible actions, right? < 1504573133 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right < 1504573166 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mention it, but the intention is that any action that can't be fully carried out is entirely ignored (also, health can go negative), but with multiple actions, it's possible for one to fail and others to succeed < 1504573167 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"beyond their current health" is probalby a minor typo < 1504573174 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, probably < 1504573204 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Virgin is one of those companies. ("Our WiFi is complimentary in First Class, and pay as you go in Standard Class, --") < 1504573228 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's missing to me from this document is listing manos that are common among a large class of cards (like all creatures, all lands, all spells, whatever) < 1504573255 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't quite understand how playing cards from your hand usually works. < 1504573321 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like they can't just go to the tactic from your hand, because then you couldn't distinguish between the card used from your hand or from the ready; but if they go directly to the busy or ready or attached, then how do you counterspell them? < 1504573328 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ Trains in Great Britain provide a two-tier class structure, with the higher tier called "first class". The lower tier was re-branded from "third class" to "second class" by British Rail from 3 June 1956, and then to "standard class" from 11 May 1987. ]] < 1504573355 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, so that's what happened < 1504573363 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you could have cards that are directly spent from your hand or something < 1504573372 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but cards have to get to the bf somehow < 1504573391 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: oh, the way it works is that most cards go from hand to tactic 1, but from play to attack / defend / tactic 2 < 1504573402 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that's the plan < 1504573412 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1504573422 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they can go directly to tactic 1 even if attack is empty? < 1504573430 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some cases, the effect on being initially played is the same as the effect you get from an ability, so you could just "replay" it as a discount < 1504573446 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, the same physical slot on the board is used for tactic 1 (when there's no attack) and for defending (when there is an attack) < 1504573458 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly so that 2 continues to have the same meaning, of a slot where you respond to your opponent's action < 1504573565 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right, you even mention this as ""Deploy" is a very common manoeuvre name; it always includes "hand → tactics 1" and no positive resource usage, but the negative resource usages vary." < 1504573716 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "This might be able to do with an overspill" sounds odd to me, but maybe it's an Englishism < 1504573975 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "overspill" isn't actually a noun, I'm just using it as one < 1504573986 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"with a consequence for overspilling" would be more correct < 1504574116 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So can an enchantment add manos to the card it's attached to? Or is that forbidden? < 1504574327 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the ugly phrasing is because in M:tG, when you attach a Holy Strength enchantment to a Devoted Hero creature, then the Holy Strength is the "attached permanent" but the Devoted Hero is the "enchanted permanent" even though to attach something and to enchant something is sort of the same; and "equip" works the same as "enchant". the terminology is < 1504574327 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :confusing.) < 1504574354 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(luckily most of the time in M:tG it's obvious what the words mean because the abilities make sense only for the aura or only for the creature.) < 1504574482 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: grafting manoeuvres onto cards seems like a reasonable use of an aspect < 1504574512 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1504574514 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, writing that document made me much better at spelling "manoeuvre", it's not an easy word to spell) < 1504574533 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... although you could just choose a different word instead in that case < 1504574534 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think it's spelled "manoeuver" in US English? not sure on that < 1504574575 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it's late so goodbye, channel < 1504574609 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1504574611 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1504575170 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time ais523 < 1504575172 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for ais523 is Tue Sep 5 01:32:51 2017 < 1504575177 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on and off at the computer. < 1504575667 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504575739 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504576869 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( just spell it "manøver" hth ) < 1504577047 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely ø̈ would be a better vowel there? < 1504577403 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1504577509 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: we don't use that in norwegian hth < 1504578978 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504579435 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the rule of your kind of game, to become more clear, to write the open-source computer program of it, possibly by the literate programming so that they same document can also be all of the same text, as well as the computer program codes. < 1504579515 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What I want, instead, is for card text to be written in a declarative programming language such that you can generate both behavior and readable English text from it. < 1504579527 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care which word you use, but you should use words that you can write with ASCII and be understandable all of the card, even if you may use some non-ASCII characters in their document they should not be require < 1504579555 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think requiring ø is OK. < 1504579576 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: That is another idea yes, and I have thought about that too. Although, I was talking about the rules rather than the cards. < 1504579618 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'd prefer for most of the rules to be implemented in the same programming language as the cards. < 1504579621 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But about requiring a slashed "o", well, I think that is not even the correct spelling anyways, so it does not make sense. And even if it is used in the word, it doesn't cause problem with ASCII-only communications anyways. < 1504579647 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only a small core language needs to be part of the definition of the game itself. < 1504579657 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't care whether the core language is specified in English. < 1504579682 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ASCII-only communication is outdated < 1504579686 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: At least in the case of Magic: the Gathering that does make sense, but for ais523's game it seem difference < 1504579688 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has gone the way of Gopherr. < 1504579709 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I wasn't talking about either of those games, but a hypothetical game I haven't described. < 1504579717 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I like the idea of storing cards as AST and converting it to English and code < 1504579718 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK, then it works fine. < 1504579734 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the English should convert back to the AST too, otherwise people wouldn't know what a card did by looking at it < 1504579754 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ideally the language describing card behavior would be simple enough that people could also read it directly. < 1504579757 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar KAFF < 1504579757 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KAFF 050058Z AUTO 33015G23KT 8SM CLR 24/03 A3029 RMK AO2 PK WND 34026/22 SLP178 T02390030 $ < 1504579771 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it would be good if there was a canonical translation back and forth to English. < 1504579772 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Actually that idea I have thought of even for use with Magic: the Gathering too (but not the second part about back conversion, which would make the text a bit messy I think) < 1504579774 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :8? I dispute that claim; that is too high. < 1504579775 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504579780 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar KOAK < 1504579780 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KOAK 050053Z 34006KT 9SM BKN140 BKN200 26/19 A2984 RMK AO2 SLP105 T02560189 < 1504579786 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: perhaps it should be a subset of English? < 1504579794 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Sure, just like Magic: The Gathering < 1504579794 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The air would be nicer if it was breathable. < 1504579797 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :M:tG is sort-of like a "programming language that's a subset of English" already < 1504579801 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not that well specified < 1504579807 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all. < 1504579819 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact people have to reverse-engineer card behavior sometimes. < 1504579820 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hearthstone is trying to deal with screen size problems < 1504579830 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's part of the reason why aspects, manoeuvres, actions all have names < 1504579836 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that on a small screen, you can display just the name < 1504579854 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people know what the names do most of the time, or if they don't, there'd be some way to look up the corresponding action < 1504579855 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That 8 mile visibility is from smoke. < 1504579864 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: MtG card language is fairly well-specified, but it can also say whatever it wants. < 1504579890 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, mostly it is well specified enough. Not quite, though. < 1504579910 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I'd argue that it's very poorly specified, although rigid < 1504579910 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504579920 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't even a grammar, unless you count Alex Churchill's < 1504579921 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, "almost" isn't good enough. < 1504579923 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unofficial < 1504579934 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I like using keywords and short descriptive words in card names. < 1504579949 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I kind of wish those were part of a "standard library", separate from the core game rules. < 1504579953 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person < 1504579960 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I liked that. < 1504580005 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down. < 1504580041 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :gain hug until end of turn < 1504580041 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes I like that too, although it isn't only you who did that; someone else too has described a game they were making, with the same thing, to me. < 1504580208 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My ideas for AST for Magic: the Gathering is one example can be: [:counter [:target :spell]] or [:counter [:target [:and [:not :black], :spell]]] and it can use precise rules (written in open-source computer code) to describe the exact conversion and meaning. < 1504580297 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Counter" in Magic: the Gathering has another meaning too, which refers to a one-shot property, although in this AST the two kind of "counter" are two different words.) < 1504580322 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think RoboRosewater uses "unspell" internally? < 1504580432 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, maybe, and yes that will work too. (Or maybe it uses "uncast"; I don't know, but that works too) < 1504580437 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like the chain rule? < 1504580478 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1504580542 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: text editing doesn't require an AST < 1504580551 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just requires S < 1504580575 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1504580587 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot that it refers to types < 1504580589 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah it does < 1504580595 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm < 1504580614 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What chain rule and what about chain rule? < 1504580626 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The derivative one. < 1504580695 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, yes, OK < 1504580757 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chain rule makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas < 1504580758 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The chain rule makes a lot more sense when you add types. < 1504580763 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only thing that type-checks. < 1504580773 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How do you mean? < 1504580783 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there's two ways to write it < 1504580793 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dy/dx = dy/du × du/dx is the one I'm thinking of < 1504580818 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other version is less symmetrical, shorter, and comes to the same thing < 1504580821 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the best way to write it, though I haven't figured out quite what it means. < 1504580846 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: basically, y is a function of x, but can also be written as a function of u, where u is a function of x < 1504580852 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know that much. < 1504580867 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can differentiate y with respect to u, because y is a function of u < 1504580869 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Leibniz notation a lot. But I don't really know how to formalize it. < 1504580878 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can differentiate u with respect to x, obviously < 1504580916 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, do people often write things like "d(x^3)/d(x^2)"? < 1504580917 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a silly example, let's say y=u², u=sin x; then we have dy/du=2u, du/dx = cos x < 1504580938 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we just multiply them together and get 2u cos x = 2(sin x) cos x < 1504580948 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is dy/dx in this case < 1504580951 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know that. < 1504580980 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the notation only works if you have one specific independent variable identified (in this case, x) < 1504581004 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(x³)/d(x²) is meaningful if you treat x as the variable in question (it's d(x³)/dx ÷ d(x²)/dx) < 1504581035 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it works in some other cases as well. < 1504581048 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the way to think about dy (where y isn't your independent variable) is that it means "the value of y when x has a slightly higher value, minus the value of y right now" < 1504581064 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where the "slightly higher value" would be x+dx) < 1504581097 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case where the derivative isn't continuous, "slightly higher" and "slightly lower" may give different results, but that's a case that's typically ignored at lower levels of maths < 1504581123 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the point is that you take limits, so you take the limit of the derivative as dx shrinks to 0 < 1504581142 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know the thing people do -- I think we've talked about this before -- where they have "x^2 + y^2 = 1", and then "2 x dx + 2 y dy = 0", and then "dy/dx = -x/y"? < 1504581149 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but clearly, you have dy/du×du/dx=dy/dx while dx is positive, so you wouldn't expect it to change in the limit < 1504581170 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, there are a bunch of rules for whether that's safe to do, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them written down < 1504581172 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that you can parameterize x and y in terms of some other variable, but it doesn't matter which one you use. < 1504581190 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, I'd probably define x = cos t and y = sin t < 1504581231 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that the exact parameterization can matter, especially when multiple x correspond to a single y < 1504581234 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or vice versa < 1504581259 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can it? < 1504581262 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an example where it matters? < 1504581288 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I was thinking of the chain rule in multidimensional cases, since the single-dimensional version loses some important content. < 1504581302 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, think of x²+y²=1 as a curve (in this case, a circle); in order to calculate things like dy/dx, you have to imagine a point moving along that circle, and dy/dx becomes the ratio of its y velocity to its x velocity < 1504581303 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dy/du * du/dx is really composition of linear maps, or multiplication of matrices; it's not commutative) < 1504581322 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, it doesn't matter how fast it's moving (as long as it has nonzero speed) in the case of the circle < 1504581331 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you can imagine a more complex curve, say one that crosses itself < 1504581349 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the speed of the point is going to depend on which path it takes < 1504581363 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're parameterizing everything in terms of time to make it work. < 1504581369 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a really degenerate example where the theory breaks down is 0xy=0 < 1504581377 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can find the derivative at any point to be anything there < 1504581411 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, dividing by 0 is normally cheating, but you need a rigid set of rules to make sure you aren't doing it in any given case < 1504581433 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing you can say is, the curve is defined by the zero set of f(x,y) = x^2 + y^2 - 1 < 1504581443 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1504581460 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this sort of derivative shenanigans only works at points on the curve which have a unique tangent < 1504581461 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the derivative is defined by the zero set of Df(x,y)(dx,dy) = 2x dx + 2y dy < 1504581473 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather the derivative at each point < 1504581479 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, you do have to uniquely define the point (which may involve specifying both x /and/ y, or using a third variable to parameterize) < 1504581496 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite happy using both x and y < 1504581526 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, even for the half-circle sqrt(1-x^2), "-y/x" is much nicer than "-sqrt(1-x^2)/x" < 1504581545 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also it works for a circle of any radius. < 1504581577 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1504581593 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is easy what it mean, if you multiply dy/du by du/dx then the du are cancel out, it look like. < 1504581604 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I think what typically goes wrong with this approach isn't necessarily in the dx/dy manipulation itself, but in trying to write x or y in terms of each other when it isn't unique < 1504581612 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It look like, but is it actually? < 1504581643 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: right, the dx and dy symbols don't necessarily obey all the normal rules of mathematics, so you often have to prove any specific thing you can do with them separately < 1504581648 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in this case they do follow normal rules < 1504581720 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'd like them to be something other than symbols. < 1504581728 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example sometimes people define them to be differential forms. < 1504581733 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar kcos < 1504581734 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :KCOS 050154Z 31008KT 4SM HZ OVC050 24/06 A3032 RMK AO2 SLP172 T02440056 < 1504581737 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1504581743 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't really work that well with the typical uses of Leibniz notation, I think. < 1504581754 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I have read that the notations like d^2x and dx^2 don't follow the rules in the common way, but that it is possible to use the notation to mean something else to make it work, but then the second derivative is written in a more complicated way (although it is still d(dy/dx)/dx) < 1504581976 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have made the figuring out of d(dy/dx)/dx by myself and confirmed what Penrose mentioned.) < 1504581978 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I worked it out in this channel once. < 1504582017 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(dy/dx)/dx = d^2y/dx^2 + dy/dx d^2x/dx^2 < 1504582075 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked it out on paper once but forget now what it is < 1504582095 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I said is what you get if you parameterize x and y in terms of t < 1504582114 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then treat "d(...)" as meaning "the derivative of ... with respect to t" < 1504582317 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504582741 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504584256 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504584291 0 :relrod!~relrod@origin.elrod.me JOIN :#esoteric < 1504584293 0 :relrod!~relrod@origin.elrod.me QUIT :Changing host < 1504584293 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric < 1504584322 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: helrod < 1504584878 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hello < 1504584885 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :my server just shat itself and I don't know why < 1504584910 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :load average went through the roof, but it wasn't a DDoS or anything (no spike in net traffic, nothing useful in logs) :/ < 1504584981 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: it's likely either a scheduled maintenance task that rarely runs, or a trojan/virus < 1504584998 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want something like top in order to see what's responsible for a high load average, not logs < 1504585012 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could be a legitimate program that got stuck in an infinite loop for some reason < 1504585113 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's a Linux box, so I'd assume not trojan/virus. And I run the box... I haven't installed any new cronjobs recently or anything. < 1504585139 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: the most common malware on Linux is from people brute-forcing your password, then installing it manually when they learn what it is < 1504585140 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah it's likely a loop of some sort...but I was hoping something would have spit out something useful to a logfile < 1504585159 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux boxes are much more valuable targets to hackers than Windows boxed because Linux is a much more powerful OS < 1504585166 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there disk I/O? High memory usage? < 1504585168 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top < 1504585169 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Huh? < 1504585170 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 100% CPU usage < 1504585184 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is Linux more powerful? < 1504585201 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I only root login with key auth. So if it were a password attempt, they'd also need to know my username, and the (non-standard) port I run sshd on. < 1504585207 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if you can run as root on Linux, it's fairly easy to do things like make a highly scalable spam cannon < 1504585209 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it would be a *very* targeted attack < 1504585220 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :only allow root login with key auth* < 1504585220 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's harder on Windows, which is further from the metal < 1504585227 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you mean? < 1504585238 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you need metal to make a cannon? < 1504585290 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there was a spike in mem usage, but it didn't peak. https://elrod.me/collectd/bin/index.cgi?plugin=memory×pan=86400&action=show_selection&ok_button=OK < 1504585305 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux is better for writing servers than home editions of Windows < 1504585325 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:19:28 < ais523> but if it's a loop, the program responsible will show at the top of top < 1504585328 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I could've ssh'd into it, yes < 1504585331 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to force a reboot < 1504585334 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers < 1504585340 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't get into the box at all, on console or ssh < 1504585345 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about home editions of Windows. But I assume relrod's server isn't running that anyway. < 1504585383 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has system calls like sendfile(2) which are designed for highly efficient network operations, whereas IIRC Windows can't do more than 4 network connections at once unless you pay Microsoft money to increase the limit < 1504585427 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: kernel panic, perhaps? that would normally show in the logs, but sometimes it's something bad enough that the logs can't be saved to disk < 1504585434 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: you should give up and set up prometheus like fizzie did hth < 1504585440 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that can't be the case if the graphs were collected by a usermode process on the machine < 1504585450 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well it was responding to pings (so net stack was still up), but that was about it. < 1504585459 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 1.9 < 1504585496 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm thinking some process just went crazy < 1504585534 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't make it impossible to ssh in, and definitely shouldn't make it impossible to get in via the serial console < 1504585578 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53034&oldid=53023 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+15) 10/* C */ Added Charcoal < 1504585609 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, is someone finally documenting Charcoal? < 1504585621 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out bits by reading the source, but it's still a really hard language to learn < 1504585638 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Dlosc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53035&oldid=50903 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+151) 10Added note about Charcoal contributions < 1504585658 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many people actually have Windows 10 S though? < 1504585670 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 S is the one with that limit, and it *also* has the limit you can only run Store apps. < 1504585682 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I thought it applied to regular Windows * Home too < 1504585690 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that got removed at some point < 1504585746 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean, if a process was hammering both cores, everything else would get queued up, waiting for CPU time, right? < 1504585776 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would explain SSH hanging, and the console not being able to throw me a login prompt < 1504585862 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might have been also in some of the "developing nations only" editions too. < 1504585900 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Home omits some features, like Hyper-V, but doesn't have arbitrary limitations on the features it does have like that. < 1504585905 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it depends though. I've had work servers that nagios-alerted with ~400 load average before that still let me ssh in and kill the process that went to shit. *shrug* < 1504585929 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :relrod: schedulers don't work like that, if a process is really hammering the CPUs, the kernel will make sure that other processes can get timeslices < 1504585943 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, if a process is really hammering the /disk/, that can give Linux trouble, for reasons I don't fully understand < 1504586029 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I looked it up, there's a limit of 10 or 20 (depending on edition) devices that can be connected to a single Windows machine, but that wording is vague and probably doesn't apply to all TCP connections < 1504586079 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, huh... < 1504586086 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the limit on the *SMB server*. < 1504586110 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, looking around various discussions on this < 1504586124 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, humorously, is trivial to work around now. < 1504586132 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Samba in WSL. < 1504586140 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gathered that a) that limit is related to SMB; b) inbound connections that don't use SMB or IIS are sometimes banned by license agreements but there's no technological block on them < 1504586175 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, that's brilliant < 1504586201 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Dlosc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53036&oldid=53035 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+66) 10 < 1504586209 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is provided on all versions of Windows that will run 64-bit Windows binaries. < 1504586225 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of up-to-date Windows 10, I should say) < 1504586372 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504586456 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: your polyglot challenge is up to 127 now < 1504586483 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, has it slowed down a bit then? < 1504586497 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have I just failed to track the typical rate of growth mentally? < 1504586519 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any interesting new languages, or is it all just BF derivatives? < 1504586536 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to come in bursts, with several people posting shortly after each other, i assume they coordinate. < 1504586606 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :latest are: deltaplex, nhonhehr, gammaplex, C(clang), mycelium, monkeys, braincopter < 1504586622 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nhohnhehr < 1504586667 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :piet wasn't too long ago < 1504586692 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504586802 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Brian and Chuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53037 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+27) 10Redirected page to [[Brian & Chuck]] < 1504586837 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and before that, they had a bunch of emoji languages < 1504586873 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I wonder how eso kOS is. Maybe it merits an wiki page? < 1504586892 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading the latest additions now < 1504587452 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504587647 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504587720 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504587952 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504588640 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504589702 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504592200 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1504592288 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Client Quit < 1504593610 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the book of Pitman shorthand (from 1971). But, can we to make up a new system of shorthand can be theatre shorthand? < 1504593783 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much. [2] In addition to words, can also be record music. < 1504594371 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1504594820 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504595010 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1504596570 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Dlosc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53038&oldid=53036 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+137) 10 < 1504596612 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Dlosc14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53039&oldid=53038 5* 03Dlosc 5* (+0) 10Alphabetized < 1504597577 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504597627 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504597878 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504597954 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1504598083 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504598094 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504598229 0 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe QUIT :Quit: Hugs~ <3 < 1504598344 0 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric < 1504598351 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504598568 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1504599618 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504599803 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504600079 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504600079 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504600454 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504600701 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504600871 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504601115 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504602324 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504602353 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504603421 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504605585 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504606306 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1504606716 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504607133 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504607300 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ais523: It's annoying that Hearthstone card text doesn't describe behavior completely at all." => um sure. M:tG text doesn't either. that's why we have a separate Comprehensive Rules and Oracle Text document, each hundreds of pages long. < 1504607323 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rules are so big you can't reasonably fit them on the front of the cards. < 1504607448 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For almost all cards, the card text and general rules understanding describes the behavior precisely. < 1504607458 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some special cases where you need extra rulings, those are mostly to disambiguate. < 1504607487 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" actually I think one of my favourite innovations is cards referring to themselves in first person" => why is that useful? couldn't it cause confusion because players also refer to themselves in first person when they describe an action. I'm not saying you should use full card names (or the part before comma) all the time, but M:tG also uses "this " in indirect rules text and "this" in reminder text. < 1504607554 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Hearthstone there are cards with effects like "summon a random creature token of type X", where you don't even know what tokens of type X there are and what abilities they have without trying it out. < 1504607562 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that, I don't know the details. < 1504607588 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Magic: the Gathering has text editing effects, which implies a AST anyways, even if nobody has ever written it down." => no, I totally disagree with that. The text editing effects are very limited, they only care about mentions of mana symbols and color words and subtypes (land and creature) in the card text, which just requires a few simple parameters of those types rather than a full AST. < 1504607876 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in particular, I'm not really convinced that it would be worth to specify M:tG in some abstract domain specific language tailored to M:tG. It could work, but I think it might be better to use a good generic programming language for implementing the rules, and not have it automatically linked to the English version of the rules. < 1504607910 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The English Comp Rules and Oracle versus the computer-readable code version could be maintained together, or separately one following the other as they are now.) < 1504608075 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas_: I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG < 1504608121 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the chain rule [in calculus] makes intuitive sense if you see derivatives as limits of deltas" => it's easy to confuse yourself to think that the chain rule makes intuitive sense, but it's much harder to actually get an intuition that helps you figure out answers to more complicated applications, such as those involving multiple derivatives or more some crazier integral-fubini transforms < 1504608133 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: same to you < 1504608171 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's like five different ways how people say the chain rule makes intuitive sense, and I've no idea how to connect those different intuitions. < 1504608215 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, for simple problems, any of the intuitions work. < 1504608257 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work. < 1504608282 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say that for f : A -> B, Df : A -> (A -o B), where -o means a linear map < 1504608288 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you just fit it all together < 1504608314 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess some people would say something about the product of the Jacobian matrices or something. < 1504608351 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C292.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504608693 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" [home editions of Windows] have arbitrary restrictions that make them very bad at serving as servers" => and no good ports of C or C++ compiler toolkits or perl interpreters. it took some working on windows at my job to realize how REALLY TERRIBLE the C compiler situation is. < 1504608711 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strawberry perl is pretty good < 1504608784 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if Rust ever takes over, it won't be because it's a better language or has a better compiler, even though both of those are true, but because they're doing a lot of extra work to make sure all the infrastructure works on windows. and this might be a factor of the popularity of python and other high-level languages over C++, though I'm not sure about that.) < 1504608835 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously. NOBODY HAS A GOOD FREE SOFTWARE PORT OF ANY GOOD C COMPILER TOOLKIT FOR WINDOWS X86_64. There are tons of ports, but each of them suck. < 1504609001 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The root problem isn't that your existing C or C++ programs aren't portable, because libraries are missing. That's just a consequence of having no good C compiler toolkits, which is why existing mostly portable C or C++ libraries already don't get ported, and it's hard to develop entirely new C or C++ programs too. < 1504609065 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even libraries that get ported to BSD and Hurd and IBM's non-ASCII systems and VMS all sorts of crazy systems don't have a windows port, because it's such a suffering to continuously maintain C code for windows. < 1504609092 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is good. < 1504609093 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Windows does have some other advantages for a user, I know.) < 1504609113 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes good Programmers go away from Winblows. 😎 < 1504609336 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C292.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1504609409 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" The intention of my idea of the theatre shorthand will be (among other things): [1] To write without having to look at the paper so much." => people just use stenography (shorthand typewriters) for that, I think < 1504609504 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I'd rather design a new game meant for this sort of system than use MTG" => ok < 1504609551 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" b_jonas_: All I was saying was, if you add types, there's only one way the chain rule can work." => I don't think so. when you do third derivatives, you get small constant factors in your expressions that you can't figure out from just the types. < 1504609615 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :APic: good in what sense? it's not good for a programmer like me who has to suffer with stupid windows software because of this < 1504609642 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just stop working for a Company that forces You to use Windows? < 1504609674 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :APic: technically they only force me to develop products that will work on windows, but it's difficult either way < 1504609774 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life is generally not easy. ☺ < 1504609862 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1504609890 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :And: < 1504609894 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Generalizations are false. 😉 < 1504610743 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504611181 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas_: Third derivatives? How do you mean? < 1504611762 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53040&oldid=53031 5* 03Zseri 5* (+19) 10+new cast op equivalent < 1504612313 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Excess Flood < 1504612333 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1504612895 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1504613859 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504614922 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53041&oldid=53040 5* 03Zseri 5* (+250) 10Operator Compat Levels < 1504615703 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504615983 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504616612 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:fd67:5801:84d3:d47c JOIN :#esoteric < 1504617114 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: uh... let me look up the formulas online, I don't remember how they work. might involve some partial derivatives in multiple dimensions on a totally differentiable function where the symmetry of the order of derivatives causes the constants, or maybe something else was involved < 1504617132 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you already mentioned chain rule and second derivatives < 1504617137 0 :b_jonas_!?@? NICK :b_jonas < 1504617206 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_rule#Higher_derivatives and the constant factors of terms on the right hand side of equations < 1504617255 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as always, it's possible that you or ais are already good at calculus and all that stuff is still intuitively obvious to you, and it's just me who has the problem < 1504617713 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53042&oldid=53041 5* 03Zseri 5* (-30) 10improve formatting of operator tables < 1504617823 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still couldn't get used to some of this strange new interface in MS Word these days. So find and spellcheck aren't controlled by dialog boxes now, but instead by dockers. The main action buttons in those dialogs (find next, replace, replace all; skip, skip all, ignore, replace with selected word) do have underlined letters in them, < 1504617899 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wasn't obvious to figure out how you actually press the button with those shortcuts. The answer is, you have to first F6 to the docker (clicking on a buttom with the mouse doesn't activate that docker), then press the letter without modifiers. < 1504617940 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt+letter or alt+shift letter doesn't work even if that docker is selected, because it's not a dialog. Alt+letter will just activate the menu entry, which sort of makes sense, but alt+shift+letter doesn't seem to do anything, < 1504617985 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which goes against what I learned in all word, in which macro debugging was controlled by such a persistently active non-modal "docker" (actually an extra toolbar thingy) with underlined buttons and you had to press alt+shift+letter for its buttons (because alt+letter clashed with the menu). < 1504618083 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I still think there's no way to figure out how the shit any of this keyboard contorl works from just the interface and help, unless you already have a lot of fucking experience-based intuition on how older more intuitive MS software works and try pressing a lot of random buttons (and make sure you have gigabytes of free RAM and make backups because trying random buttons has strange side effects). < 1504618335 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if you do figure it out, the interface is sometimes unintuitive. Example: you can toggle the ribbon bar as always visible or hidden, have ribbon bars with functions that you commonly use together, only one ribbon bar is shown at any one time, and if a ribbon bar was visible and you activate a new one, the new one will stay visible. Good so far. < 1504618418 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :The buttons and other controls on ribon bars have the equivalent of menu shortcuts, these shortcuts are one or two letters, and they're per ribbon bar. Still good. The shortcuts within a ribbon bar are distinct form the shortcuts of different ribbon bars (top-level menu entries), which implies you get a lot of really strange and too long shortcuts, BUT < 1504618475 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just press alt plus the shortcut of a ribbon bar button, despite that it seems like you can, no, each time you have to press the shortcut of the ribbon bar (with alt or f10) and then the shortcut of the particular control, even if the ribbon bar is already fucking active and visible. < 1504618526 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just one example of lots of basically good innovated design messed up by stupid small things like that. < 1504618601 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I also hate the Hungarian localized interface with a passion no matter when I use it, continuiously ever since those eixst. Just stop localizing any of the fucking interface to Hungarian.) < 1504618726 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But luckily these days it's easier to get software with the original English localized interface than it used to when you'd have Hungarian Winword on two floppies and that was it. I even looked up the magical incantations for telling Firefox to use the English interface. Its default is to use the default localization of Windows, and I did download the English language pack for Firefox, but even then it wouldn't automatically choose that.) < 1504619045 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry for all the rant) < 1504619818 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504620465 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh by the way, in case this is new to other people. Windows 10 does have a multiple virtual desktop thing built in, wherein you can group windows to multiple "virtual desktop" and quickly switch between desktop to show those windows and hide most others. In windows 7 you need extra software for that, although that might still be useful for windows 10 because of a better interface. < 1504620483 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't known this before, because the feature is somewhat well hidden in the windows 10 interface. < 1504620962 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504621018 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53043&oldid=53042 5* 03Zseri 5* (+251) 10Computational class < 1504621941 0 :catern!~catern@catern.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504622039 0 :catern!~catern@104.131.201.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504622056 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504622557 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504622690 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1504623384 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:fd67:5801:84d3:d47c QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1504623855 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504624025 0 :picoder_!~picoder@103.43.112.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504624093 0 :picoder_!~picoder@103.43.112.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, has anyone tried to optimize the graham scan by modifying the actual algorith? < 1504624142 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504624929 0 :picoder_!~picoder@103.43.112.99 PART #esoteric : < 1504625433 0 :picoder_!~picoder@103.43.112.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504626350 0 :fractal!?@? NICK :_fractal_ < 1504627144 0 :picoder_!~picoder@103.43.112.99 PART #esoteric : < 1504627685 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Noid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53044&oldid=52875 5* 03Zayne 5* (+38) 10/* Examples */ < 1504628008 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Noid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53045&oldid=53044 5* 03Zayne 5* (+123) 10 < 1504629679 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :this session will be full... (will include ICFP contest ceremony...) < 1504629785 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan please define "broken" < 1504629785 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504630129 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how. < 1504630129 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504630155 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: nice! will Endo be present? < 1504630160 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grins magically. < 1504630179 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I don't know. < 1504630205 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a couple of talks first < 1504630267 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504630325 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: hmm, now I'm wondering how different countries compare, if you asked people there "do you prefer to use most software in English or in your native language?" < 1504630364 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: did Endo's planet even have trees and rivers? < 1504630529 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504630549 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you'd have to somehow correct for differences in English knowledge between countries < 1504630760 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there might be a crossover point where a country's population knows enough english that they will prefer the English interface to a badly localized version < 1504630780 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: dunno, but I think there his transformed form has definitely affected a tree and river. < 1504630805 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(recall that endo's DNS affects its environment more directly than ours) < 1504631049 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: I see. < 1504632740 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: My idea specifies the cards (and some of, but not all of, the rules) in a domain specific language, although it does not have to be one specific to M:tG, and might be usable with other kind of card games too. But it should be one close enough to be able to do alterable AST (whether it is an interpreter and alters it directly, or is compiled and figures out what it needs to compile in order to allow the alterations to be implemented to do t < 1504632792 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this make sense? Or maybe I missed something < 1504633413 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504633551 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504635684 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1096 < 1504635685 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1096: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1504636889 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504636895 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biproportional_apportionment <- how the fuck can this work < 1504636898 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have 6 seats < 1504636911 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. no < 1504636919 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have 2 seats to give < 1504636925 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have the votes 200, 200, 200 < 1504636938 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can there be a divisor such that the rounded sum yields 2? < 1504636945 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either 200 / divisor is 0 or it is 0 < 1504636951 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning the sum of seats will either be 3 or 0 < 1504636954 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can never be 2? < 1504637334 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504637546 0 :doesthiswork!80c1aad3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.193.170.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504637565 0 :doesthiswork!80c1aad3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.193.170.211 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see we're a shrub now < 1504638565 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1504639242 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504639402 0 :impomatic!~digital_w@host86-164-38-142.range86-164.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504639684 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Raumaankidwai 5* 10New user account < 1504639766 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53046&oldid=53022 5* 03Raumaankidwai 5* (+275) 10 < 1504640741 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504641111 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504641474 0 :doesthiswork!80c1aad3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.193.170.211 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1504642001 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504642119 0 :mroman!b2c5e19a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.225.154 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504642367 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gfqtuidnrulmxovi JOIN :#esoteric < 1504642478 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504642680 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504642727 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Cubestate14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53047 5* 03Raumaankidwai 5* (+5268) 10Created page with "'''Cubestate''' is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:Raumaankidwai]]. '''Cubestate''' (or '''cubestate''') programs are based on sequences of moves on Rubik's Cu..." < 1504642760 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Cubestate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53048&oldid=53047 5* 03Raumaankidwai 5* (+6) 10 < 1504642777 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504642846 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Cubestate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53049&oldid=53048 5* 03Raumaankidwai 5* (+202) 10 < 1504642891 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: New kernel < 1504644283 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504644574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:1061:fc6d:8307:32a2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504644580 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:1061:fc6d:8307:32a2 QUIT :Changing host < 1504644580 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504644906 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Cubestate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53050&oldid=53049 5* 03Zseri 5* (-254) 10improve formatting < 1504644943 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504645171 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504647275 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-092-072-159-070.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504647486 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504648719 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504649170 0 :Mayoi!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504649361 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504650028 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C292.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1504650031 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C292.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504650709 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like pumpernickel bread? < 1504651006 0 :Guest53736!?@? NICK :moonythedwarf < 1504651017 0 :moonythedwarf!~moony@2a05:dfc7:dfc7:c1::7da4 QUIT :Changing host < 1504651017 0 :moonythedwarf!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1504651365 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504651655 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504651718 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504651893 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504651931 0 :BooK!~book@klonk.bruhat-souche.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504651985 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504652618 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1504652677 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504652764 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:8d5c:7109:d6f2:af3b JOIN :#esoteric < 1504652764 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:8d5c:7109:d6f2:af3b QUIT :Client Quit < 1504652767 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Client Quit < 1504654341 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gfqtuidnrulmxovi QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1504654452 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504655487 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504655488 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1504655573 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wii int-e < 1504655573 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.haskell.org/int-e_ < 1504655577 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1504655599 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-loud < 1504655599 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 7h 10m 13s ago: please define "broken" < 1504655599 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 7h 4m 29s ago: in general I find it very hard to not simply ignore reports that tell me that something is broken without explaining how. < 1504655609 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a -> a < 1504655609 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude id :: a -> a < 1504655609 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function id :: a -> a < 1504655609 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a < 1504655718 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e Broken as in even @hoogle a -> a wasn't working yesterday. < 1504655718 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504655737 0 :wob_jonas!b03f194f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504655764 0 :wob_jonas!b03f194f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.79 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck! is there some simple way to remove a rust stain from a cheap polypropilene box with rough surface? < 1504655779 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamite hth < 1504655799 0 :wob_jonas!b03f194f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.79 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I stored a throwaway standalone scraper blade in it, and I didn't realize the blade was made from a non-rustproof iron < 1504655799 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :may also remove other things. < 1504655848 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, my chemistry is rusty < 1504655911 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:8934:a53:cc3c:f1da JOIN :#esoteric