< 1503532807 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: That's not too surprising. The script closes the place it puts /console to by default, since normally the command output goes via tty1. < 1503532833 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: You could use the --debug flag (in place of -v), I think that might leave it open but not print any extra stuff. < 1503532872 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, debug gives me the same as -v < 1503532885 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I should be fine with running it with -v for now < 1503532916 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I need to make the script call umlbox, it should be fine if I run the bot with umlbox < 1503532937 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that any subprocess created by something with umlbox will be sandboxed too, right? < 1503533035 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd assume that it'd be running within the same umlbox process, although I'm not sure < 1503533055 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes, though if you put the bot inside umlbox, it's hard to make the bot have access to any sort of modifiable thing that you don't want the commands it executes to have access to. < 1503533060 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1503533073 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're okay with an entirely stateless thing, then that's maybe not really an issue. < 1503533166 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my bots are typically stateless < 1503533169 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thutubot is, for example < 1503533417 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the bot complains about the lack of a module < 1503533421 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Kind of a fun fact: on recent kernels, UML's virtual block device (ubd), if you point it at a file smaller than the block size (512 bytes), seems to wrap around in the source file when you try to read past the end. < 1503533427 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It kind of reminds me of what game consoles and other memory mapped things do "naturally" when you have a fixed amount of address space bits connected to something with less physical address lines. < 1503533431 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except this one isn't restricted to powers of two for the size of the thing it repeats.) < 1503533468 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie Do you know if I can make the umlbox script I'm running with python virtualenvs? < 1503533478 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any way to get the module working with umlbox < 1503533491 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right, this has been known to cause problems when games are moved to consoles with more memory (likewise for DOS programs running on a newer processor) < 1503533501 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's quite easy to write a program to accidentally make use of addresses past the end of memory < 1503533510 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they wrap rather than crashing, you won't notice until you move to a system with more memory < 1503533650 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: In theory you should be able to run the venv activation script inside UML, assuming you've got the necessary directories mirrored from the host. < 1503533688 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1503533693 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any trivial way to "inherit" the virtualenv from outside, since there's no mechanism to pass environment variables in. < 1503533725 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do it? In order to activate it I would have to cd to the directory first, and as far as I know umlbox won't keep that cwd < 1503533793 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just run something like 'bash -c "cd /blah; source bin/activate; command --you=want"' instead of just command --you=want. < 1503533814 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That reminds me of https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHj4WQ_UAAAHg8v.jpg which I saw the other day. < 1503533845 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or you can have a shell script that activates the virtualenv and runs the thing you want to run, and then run *that* with umlbox.) < 1503533871 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I vaguely remember compiler/OS combinations that put something meaningful at address 0 to catch that sort of issue < 1503533876 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what OS is that screenshot from? < 1503533921 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503533969 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1503533986 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized that the bot needs internet in order to communicate with the servers, so I can't sandbox the whole bot < 1503534004 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead I would have to sandbox the part of the code where it runs arbitrary code, and for that I would need umlbox to work without -v < 1503534109 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, any idea fizzie? < 1503534134 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the worst case scenario I could probably make it work with -v and filtering out the output of umlbox < 1503534313 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm kinda tired so I'll ask you tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help fizzie! < 1503534315 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Well, I mean, you should definitely be able to hack it to make it work. For example, you can easily make init silent (just edit in init.c the lines i = open("/console", O_RDONLY); and o = open("/console", O_WRONLY); to open /dev/null instead), and add in umlbox script a kernel command line argument "console=tty1" to the end of the 'cmd' array to make the kernel messages go elsewhere too. < 1503534342 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: if the bot's just connecting to IRC, you can normally just have the internet connection in a separate process and connecting to umlbox's stdin and stdout with pipes < 1503534362 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for the answers < 1503534384 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: umlbox has a TCP and Unix domain socket forwarding mechanism as well, incidentally. < 1503534399 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Based on multiplexing them over a single virtual tty.) < 1503534413 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With a piece of code running both inside and outside.) < 1503534417 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bot is actually for discord, but I could do that. However I was thinking that it would be a better idea to run the main bot outside of the sandbox and then make the bot run the code in a subprocess with popen, that launches umlbox < 1503534434 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably the more conventional way. < 1503534434 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way any code run from the bot can't edit the bot itself since I could make it read only < 1503534446 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well, the reason you'd do it that way would be to make it impossible for the bot to connect anywhere it wasn't supposed to < 1503534471 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, see you tomorrow guys < 1503534491 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if nesting UML kernels works. They were doing something moderately tricky about address spaces at some point in the past. < 1503534542 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nesting valgrind works, IIRC, but has some special hacks to make it work < 1503534590 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with all these sorts of programs is that they tend to be written in a way that handles common cases, but really weird stuff can be much harder to handle < 1503534594 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet the program does really weird things itself < 1503534607 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, well, it didn't work out of the box (no pun intended). < 1503534610 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failed to get registers from stub, errno = 3 < 1503534610 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait_stub_done : failed to wait for SIGTRAP, pid = 357, n = 357, errno = 0, status = 0x9 < 1503534616 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :web of lies is very unlikely to be nestable, for example; the program I'm working on at work also isn't sanely nestable < 1503534707 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently at least at some point, you can do it, but the kernel you run inside UML needs to have been built with CONFIG_NEST_LEVEL=1. < 1503534722 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a single binary isn't nestable, but you can build UML kernels for specific nesting levels. < 1503534738 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1503534772 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Since this page says "the outer UML must be at least 2.4.18-22, which is not released at this writing, but will be soon", I'm not terribly confident this is true any more.) < 1503535192 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Guessing Amiga Unix from the bit at the end? < 1503535221 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503535370 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1503535386 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:marmite//Marmite is a hive mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth. \ dentist//Dentists are professional workers whose main line of work is creating dents on various surfaces. \ \//\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash. \ anagol//anagol is A < 1503535428 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that backslash one is fairly funny < 1503535436 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1503535437 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:narchy Golf, code golf server at http://golf.shinh.org/ \ intercal//INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market. < 1503535452 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :his523. < 1503535454 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I don't think this wisdom database has much to do with what the channel's originally meant to be about < 1503535472 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, there's still enough ontopic dicussion to make the channel worthwhile, at least from time to time < 1503535864 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel alienated here, like I'm not meant to be on this channel, talking. < 1503535929 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd define the general on-topicality of this subject as being about programming languages and techniques that aren't typically needed or useful in serious programs < 1503535935 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and umlbox is in that sphere at the moment < 1503535945 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem with esolangs is that if an esolang gets popular enough, it stops being esoteric < 1503535950 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this may arguably have happened with Prolog) < 1503535955 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdochelloc. < 1503535959 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :umlbox? < 1503535970 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: the sandbox that hackego uses < 1503535984 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on user mode linux < 1503535985 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: A language can be popular and not serious. < 1503535990 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? esolang < 1503535991 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1503535994 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Come on, wisdom database. < 1503536008 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: examples? I'm not sure I agree, at least for the usual definitions of "popular" < 1503536081 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. umlbox was explained to me multiple times already >_>'... < 1503536093 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's brain defaults to UML diagrams. I've been tainted
< 1503536107 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:31b3:4a20:bbe5:9901 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503536121 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: UML diagrams are the bane of everyone who tries to search the internet for User Mode Linux -related material. < 1503536153 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :UML is really weird as concepts go < 1503536171 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea, of having a consistent syntax for allowing people to explain object oriented concepts to each other as diagrams, makes sense < 1503536195 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if you have something like 8 types of diagram and some organizations try to write programs in UML first and then rewrite them in a language that can actually be run… < 1503536245 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also way to highly dependent on concepts that don't actually apply in all languages < 1503536248 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too < 1503536273 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloochaf, fizziello, hellorcah. < 1503536292 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :UML “works” for Java and C++, and that's about it. < 1503536330 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for making shiny figures for ISO certification. < 1503536472 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Java, C++ and C# together form a very large proportion of the actual programming job market, though < 1503536540 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any language designed to interoperate with Java or C# will be able to support the concepts UML discusses, even if they aren't idiomatic < 1503536657 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1503537081 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was going by what you said, but maybe I didn't read it precisely. < 1503537809 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503538028 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503538130 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503538360 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi imode < 1503538424 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi rdococ. < 1503539304 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:31b3:4a20:bbe5:9901 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1503539960 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503540655 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-79-28.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503541062 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know if there is such a thing in GURPS as a switchable advantage that has no effect? < 1503541236 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503541268 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:53 / 31:03 < 1503541268 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I did a search. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/a/117785/4918 Wizard of Oz: “The Witch was too much afraid of the dark to dare go in Dorothy's room at night to take the shoes, and her dread of water was greater than her fear of the dark, so she never came near when Dorothy was bathing.” < 1503541297 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, interesting < 1503541300 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although probably not widely known < 1503541391 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did know the witch doesn't like water, just like many undead, I even have a ticket on the old tracker for it, but I didn't remember he's afraid of the dark. < 1503541399 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an actual quote according to https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wonderful_Wizard_of_Oz/Chapter_12 by the way < 1503541584 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make that if you want to make them not go into dark but also not going into the water, I suppose? < 1503541663 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I had a proposal to make most of the undead not go into water, although that really depends on which legend about undead you look at < 1503541692 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the undead in the Arany János ballad “A hamis tanú” specifically goes only in the river < 1503541752 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's also corporeal (unlike, say, Moaning Myrtle's ghost) and not of some water-based creature type like the skeleton fish in super mario < 1503542342 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, they're just normal fish I chewed alive because they're so tasty when fresh < 1503542392 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: that doesn't explain why they're immune to fire unlike most fish in some of the mario games < 1503542455 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're bone < 1503542455 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1503542481 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're in water < 1503542514 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think it's because an evil wizard placed a voodoo curse on a shark to force the skelefish to become immune to fire. < 1503543091 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I think the most common legend related to the undead and water is that vampires can't cross running water under their own power < 1503543102 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although it's possible for someone else to carry the vampire across) < 1503543181 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. The undead are weak to everything these days. Water, fire, ice... < 1503543196 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lightning - though, sometimes that's how they're created in the first place... < 1503543196 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any stories with some kind of vampire carrying service? < 1503543214 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the typical niche that undead play in stories, when they're just an enemy, is that they're very hard to stop unless you exploit a specific weakness < 1503543229 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but there are similar legends about some undead other than water too < 1503543235 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that means that they need a lot of weaknesses for the stories to work correctly < 1503543239 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Discworld has that legend about zombies < 1503543255 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :A specific weakness such as the weakness that exists in two thirds of all human beings? < 1503543286 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is played for laugh when someone wants to use it as a test for zombies but misinterprets "undead can't pass over water" as "undead can't pass water" (as in pee) < 1503543305 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: it's more that they're resistant to almost everything, so anything that they aren't resistant to counts as a weakness by comparison < 1503543368 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wouldn't that mean the water would have to be damaging in the first place to even affect them? < 1503543369 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and there's all the modern myths about water test used in medieval witch hunt, in which the people throw someone to the river, and if they don't drown because the pure water hates them so much it expels them, they're a witch < 1503543408 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tests are exaggerated, but it is based on an authentic legend about witches and pure water. the actual tests were probably more gentle and stopped before drowning < 1503543432 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: TRICK CHICKEN < 1503543432 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, people like to exaggerate ancient witch tests because it's funny to think "if the test doesn't kill them, we execute them" < 1503543438 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "it's more that they're resistant to almost everything, so anything that they aren't resistant to counts as a weakness by comparison" => yes, I have one like that: < 1503543439 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the flaw in such a test would become obvious very quickly < 1503543645 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vampires are immortal, which means the only way to kill them is… [choose one] {A silver bullet, A stake through their heart, Bright light, Garlic, Holy water, Holy wafers sewn in their mouth, A chainsaw, Cutting their supply of blood, The crow of a rooster, Water, Fire, Magic, In their bat form, By accident, Killing their elders first, Making them < 1503543645 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop culture icons} < 1503543685 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other sorts of undead have so many resistances that they seem to be unkillable too, including werewolves, zombies, and ghosts. < 1503543690 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1503543754 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and although it's funny that witches can float on water because the water hates them, and seems more like a strength than a weakness, it does actually make more sense that the more modern legends < 1503543758 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :werewolves aren't a sort of undead? < 1503543791 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the undead in “A hamis tanú” actually probably also works in that way, with the water and everything else hating its body < 1503543878 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that in modern times, a humanoid that can float on water was no longer too strange, and for an undead that normally flies or floats above ground it's even more irrelevant (mind you, in D&D, even for living people it's harder to magically fly over water than to magically fly over land, for some reason) < 1503543884 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they changed the myth < 1503543898 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in some legends about werewolves, it is an undead, yes. the nethack werewolf isn't. < 1503543918 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Harry Potter werewolf is also not an undead < 1503543925 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not aware of any legends where werewolves are undead (in the sense of "monster mostly formed of the corpse or spirit of a dead human") < 1503543964 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me search < 1503543969 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: in Battle for Wesnoth, spirits get a reduced flying movement rate over water (although they don't get a dodge penalty, like walking through water gives you); I think it might be for balance reasons < 1503543993 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably rarer than undead vampires, which is the norm < 1503544002 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and undead witches, which is an authentic legend < 1503544047 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense that the body or part of the body of witches is supposed to be cold, which made sense as a secret hard to test feature back before thermometers < 1503544106 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :undead werewolf might actually be a modern legend, but then the whole general category of undead is probably modern too < 1503544190 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong < 1503544198 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently werewolves are never truly undead < 1503544213 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just gained a few vampire traits that make them seem a little like undead < 1503544216 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are living actually < 1503544266 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm a fool < 1503544301 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one fictional creature that is unquestionable afraid of the dark in first place, as opposed to damaged by the dark quickly or slowly or avoiding dark or anything like that < 1503544319 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are esoteric non-programming things ontopic in here? < 1503544372 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: esotericism almost certainly isn't; things that aren't directly related to programming but are weird enough to be interesting would probably not be objected to even though they aren't technically on topic < 1503544388 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the intelligent people of Lagash/Kaglash in the Asimov story “Nightfall” and its novellization with the same title < 1503544395 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, esoteric financial instruments? < 1503544403 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a channel like this, you have three bands, I think: "on topic", "off topic but tolerated/enjoyed by the community", "off topic and you're told to stop" < 1503544411 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they're afraid of the dark for psychological reasons, even though they're not actually directly damaged by the darkness < 1503544419 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's possible that most people here just don't care about financial instruments < 1503544421 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing a proposal that all finanical instruments should be written in Python in order to make them unambiguous < 1503544425 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe they are a subset of programming :-D < 1503544427 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when they go to a dark place for more than a few minutes, they get really scared and may start to panic < 1503544437 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python? No thanks < 1503544448 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, my reaction was "why Python?" < 1503544450 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this needs strong darkness, not just under the trees at dusk < 1503544456 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's fairly easy to read for somoene who doesn't know it? < 1503544475 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously they should use a JavaScript derivative < 1503544487 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the APL family of languages (including things like Jelly), which are famously hard to read if you don't know them < 1503544501 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Ethereum, or whatever that thing is < 1503544509 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's called Solidity < 1503544510 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even joking < 1503544518 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1503544522 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was hilarious in the context of our site… < 1503544523 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that makes it ontopic < 1503544528 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're unlikely to appear on Earth, partly because they don't do spacefaring, partly because they fear the dark and the Earth has dark parts, and partly because this plays "a long long time ago, in a galaxy far away", and they might also be incompatible with Earth's chemical environment or gravity < 1503544549 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, Solidity would almost certainly be considered an esolang if not for perhaps being too widly used < 1503544560 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other programming languages have semantics where using them inherently requires spending money? < 1503544562 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not completely impossible to find them on Earth, especially not in a nethack dungeon that already has the widest variety of creatures that you wouldn't really suppose to find there < 1503544581 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean, seriously, Green-elves? Green elves are elves who live in a *forest* by definition.) < 1503544597 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is solidity the opposite of liquidity? < 1503544622 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's probably easy to read, but you can also find summaries of it because it's a good and popular enough book, and the summaries are probably enough for adding them to nethack < 1503544622 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liquidity is a fascinating subject in finance. I should learn more about it. < 1503544714 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the general concept is simple enough < 1503544728 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, you probably need to know a bit more than what I told about them < 1503544737 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have money but can't spend it, are you actually rich? < 1503544747 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty philosophically interesting though when you put it like that < 1503544769 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they live on a planet with five or six suns in a strange orbit where you never have all of them under the horizon at the same time anywhere on the planet < 1503544781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why they are not used to darkness < 1503544795 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you measure liquidity? < 1503544818 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they call it "night" when the big sun is not in the sky < 1503544821 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: normally the amount of money that you could theoretically spend on short notice < 1503544834 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to invent a financial instrument that can let a name assign a price to expected liquidity < 1503544842 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including via selling things if you can sell them quickly < 1503544852 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's hard because liquidity is a multidimensional thing. < 1503544856 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they like to always have at least a little lamp lit in their houses, but that's mostly symbolic, because even if that lamp goes off, they get enough light through the windows < 1503544903 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the story is about a certain even that happens once every two thousand years, when a significant part of the planet goes totally dark because the only sun is eclipsed by a moon < 1503544924 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how block (I.e < 1503544947 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the civilization doesn't expect this because don't know about the moon because it's normally invisible because of the sun glare, < 1503544954 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :large) trades are made? That's a big part of the liquidity story, I suppose. < 1503544973 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no < 1503544979 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have just enough astronomy to predict the movement of the suns but not enough to figure out the moon from its gravity effects < 1503545001 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's only an ancient legend about that total darkness and many people don't believe that legend < 1503545013 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know that there are companies who are willing to trade capital for liquidity (i.e. they'll buy things that are hard to sell, at less than the full price that could be gotten for a trade negotiated over a long time) < 1503545020 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when the total darkness happens, they see the stars for the first time, < 1503545045 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there's a company advertising on television in the UK, and the adverts state that they'll buy cars from you for less than they're worth but with a very quick turnaround < 1503545050 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has a great effect on them just like how the discovery of a large universe had a great effect on the Krikket people in HHGG < 1503545059 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess capital-for-liquidity trades are available to the general public too, at least in one direction < 1503545088 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but instead of starting a war against the rest of the world, they go crazy and start to burn their own world to create light from the temporary flames, < 1503545095 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and destroy much of their own civilization < 1503545135 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the short story is good so you might want to read it anyway even after I spoiled most of it < 1503545144 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I didn't spoil everything, but still) < 1503545151 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I got pretty close) < 1503545226 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one? < 1503545253 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't read the past few pages of text in much detail because I was using my phone. < 1503545257 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: who was that directed at? < 1503545262 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which story. < 1503545317 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Pretty much every trade you ever make involves trading capaital for liquidity to some degree. < 1503545341 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and this service is also offered to the population for gold and silver (jewlery but also scrap gold), but in the form of quickly buying the gold or silver at half price, and in the form of quickly giving a short term loan of say a tenth of the price of the gold but a loan that you aren't required to pay off if you don't want the gold b < 1503545341 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ack < 1503545343 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crossing networks are interesting. Do people use them? < 1503545385 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they can do this with good rates because it's easy to quickly test for gold content, much more so than quickly testing the value of a used car < 1503545422 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also done for some other sorts of valuables that are easy to test and people often have it, but gold and silver are the most important < 1503545425 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure of the exact definition of "liquidity" in general use, but I use it with the rough meaning "ability to trade" < 1503545459 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to trade is almost always valuable, so someone almost always pays for it, though the way they pay for it might not be obvious. < 1503545496 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so anyway, if you want a nh monster that can wander around in a lit room but doesn't go in dark corridors, then I think a person from Lagash would work < 1503545511 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many different ways that you might want to trade, so there are many different types of liquidity. But they're usually related. < 1503545541 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're easy to add because we know so little about them, such as their body and physical capabilities, that you can invent close to anything you need for game reasons < 1503545601 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you usually find out very little about the physical characteristics of characters in Asimov's books, but most of them are at least humans or humanoid robots, while the Lagash people have no reason to be close to that < 1503545639 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? solidity < 1503545640 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :solidity? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1503545750 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're restricted very little about the nh character. they have to be intelligent and motile, but they could have any size, shape of body, almost any item use capabilities except they're certainly not zero carrying cap, a wide choice in attacks and resistances < 1503545757 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(definitely not fire resistant) < 1503545787 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and definitely not blind. < 1503545793 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they probably don't like to be blinded < 1503545796 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :really don't like < 1503545843 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you blind them, I expect they go into a rage of panic, although they may have resistance against blinding by bright light and may be able to wipe off cream pies and perhaps even ravens can't blind them < 1503545868 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perfect if you want to make a nethack monster < 1503545932 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the race has a well-known name, but Lagashian would probably work if you explain it in the 'cyclopedia < 1503545962 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Solidity is an esolang for writing contracts. It has good support for secure linear algebra. < 1503545966 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'solidity': Solidity is an esolang for writing contracts. It has good support for secure linear algebra. < 1503545967 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: please improve twh < 1503545983 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does that help? < 1503546012 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: perhaps; I'm not sure if this would work directly but it's given me some thoughts < 1503546043 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't know your gameplay mechanical motivations, so they might fail for that reason < 1503546044 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for your input, anyway < 1503546160 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's also a story about humans collectively panicking when darkness falls, but they weren't afraid as such, it's just that the Sun unexpectedly went out at some point and stayed dark for several days) < 1503546171 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's definitely not what you want) < 1503546210 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see why it would induce panic, though < 1503546218 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503546281 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and it was mostly the sensible kind of panic, when everyone tried to rob stockpiles of food < 1503546298 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and prepare for an inevitable war < 1503546312 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it relit again at some point? < 1503546327 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1503546358 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which didn't *completely* calm people down, because after that, you expect another similar event, but yeah < 1503547038 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: are you thinking Nightfall? < 1503549580 0 :mpm!1812da50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.218.80 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503549809 0 :mpm!1812da50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.218.80 QUIT :Client Quit < 1503549889 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503550187 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503551765 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally unplayable http://imgur.com/6ByIhNT < 1503551937 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"21th century" < 1503552180 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1503555214 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: whoa, the chicken chicken chicken paper is by dougz < 1503555278 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it is. < 1503555424 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I knew that at one point. < 1503555450 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This picture is TG: https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21014227_1567793873283268_4987278837085860246_o.jpg?oh=414f17cce92053674421e37ed33642e1&oe=5A613408 < 1503555456 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the topic of chickens. < 1503555552 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, chicken of the woods. < 1503555871 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone won the chicken lottery. < 1503555879 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like mushrooms? < 1503556486 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503556536 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Motekye 5* 10New user account < 1503556542 0 :zseri!5e86df4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.223.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503556631 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1503556795 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503556970 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52923&oldid=52920 5* 03Motekye 5* (+252) 10/* Introductions */ < 1503557224 0 :zseri!5e86df4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.223.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1503557516 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07B1nary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52924&oldid=52916 5* 03UtilityHotbar 5* (+1) 10/* Output */ < 1503557563 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07B1nary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52925&oldid=52924 5* 03UtilityHotbar 5* (+98) 10/* Loops: */ < 1503557695 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07B1nary14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52926&oldid=52925 5* 03UtilityHotbar 5* (+46) 10/* Interpreters: */ < 1503558018 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/abusefilter14]]4 modify10 02 5* 03Ais523 5* 10modified [[02Special:AbuseFilter/510]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/5/diff/prev/59]]) < 1503558040 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hmcvunqcuunlcvel JOIN :#esoteric < 1503558041 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the specific strain of spambots that was stopping don't seem to be around, and it was hitting false positives < 1503558361 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1503558868 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1503559841 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Mypalmike 5* 10New user account < 1503560240 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52927&oldid=52923 5* 03Mypalmike 5* (+323) 10Hi there. < 1503561105 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1503561123 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03Mypalmike 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Add1.ska.png.png10]]" < 1503561362 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503561387 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503561925 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Skastic14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52929 5* 03Mypalmike 5* (+622) 10Initial description < 1503562007 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52930&oldid=52900 5* 03Mypalmike 5* (+14) 10add skastic < 1503562050 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Skastic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52931&oldid=52929 5* 03Mypalmike 5* (-30) 10 < 1503562207 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Skastic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52932&oldid=52931 5* 03Mypalmike 5* (-3) 10 < 1503562982 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1503563729 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503563765 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503564017 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503564820 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503564914 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1503564938 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503565279 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: yes, I did specifically say Nightfall above < 1503565318 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :alerchah: um wait, I mean Nightfall is the first story, it's not the second one < 1503565613 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503565935 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503566133 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503566191 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503566297 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Did you play the Magnet game? < 1503566310 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magnets < 1503570624 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503571362 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't look nearly as awful as CLOP. < 1503571441 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morning! < 1503571869 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey fizzie, do you think that you could help me with those hacks you mentioned yesterday? I've tried changing the init.c to /dev/null like you said, but I don't see any difference in the output. Besides that, umlbox works perfectly for what I've seen. < 1503572421 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you re-make umlbox-initrd.gz? < 1503572528 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503572729 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, no. I did a make all and a make install, but considering that for some reason that file seems to not work with that, I'll make it individually again < 1503572783 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503572797 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Oh, right, it's not that, it's because /dev isn't mounted by that time. Well, then the change will be a little more complicated: http://sprunge.us/hKaK < 1503572827 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You'll still need mknod /console for the command output to go to.) < 1503572861 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, will any of the fixes you've made go to umlbox in the future? < 1503572944 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with that a part of the messages went again < 1503572962 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of sending a bitbucket pull request for at least the config file padding and the mudem compilation issue. < 1503572986 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/t3ajv < 1503573008 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked moony to test the file padding fix, but he never told me if it worked or if he tried it < 1503573023 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use --debug instead of -v, you should get rid of lines 2-23. < 1503573062 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, there are still some stuff left < 1503573068 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by the way, I built 4.12.8, and had the same config file wrapping thing, but not the "output isn't shown" one. < 1503573084 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be cursed then < 1503573094 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's an arch issue? < 1503573100 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think that moony is using it too < 1503573114 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's very odd. < 1503573124 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/rhhep < 1503573170 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's left is the kernel logs, and that "UMLBox starting" note. I've been trying to figure out the proper kernel command line parameter to put those somewhere else, so far without luck. < 1503573218 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it occurs to me that an easier way could've been just swapping "con" and "con1" in the umlbox script. < 1503573221 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-hmcvunqcuunlcvel QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503573250 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try that then < 1503573290 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, go from "con1=" + childStdin + ",fd:" + str(childStdout), "con=null," + stdoutws to "con1=null," + stdoutws, "con=" + childStdin + ",fd:" + str(childStdout) < 1503573449 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we modified that yesterday while trying to get output < 1503573500 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like "con1=" + childStdin + ",fd" + str(childStdout), to me < 1503573511 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ",fd:" < 1503573554 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that the same as what I said? < 1503573579 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sorry. I was confused because I wasn't seeing con2 there, and con2 is between con1 and con=null < 1503573617 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, con2 shouldn't really matter. It's the tty for umlbox-mudem, which isn't used unless you want to forward network ports. < 1503573685 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the output is shorter, but it doesn't work < 1503573711 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the order matter? I only renamed con to con1 and vice versa < 1503573728 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hope it doesn't. < 1503573738 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll probably still have to keep using --debug to keep the stdout open, and you'll likely have to undo the "input ../console" and "output ../console" back to "input ../tty1" and "output ../tty1" to see the command output again. < 1503573745 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/7eety < 1503573763 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503573767 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1503573772 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used -v again due to being used to it < 1503573853 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I changed it back < 1503573857 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what I get < 1503573871 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/amn2n < 1503573873 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost there < 1503573937 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. The "UMLBox starting" line you could probably just comment out of init.c, and re-make. < 1503574001 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503574043 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that works < 1503574047 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only a few lines left < 1503574201 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, unfortunately I'm not sure what to do about them. They're produced by printf calls from arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c, arch/um/os-Linux/mem.c and arch/um/kernel/um_arch.c. < 1503574215 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if you really feel like it, you can comment them out *there* and rebuild the kernel. < 1503574281 0 :S1!~s1feha@p200300886B4214895A946BFFFED92B20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1503574321 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The more reasonable way would be to do what the umlbox script is *normally* doing, but that's exactly the thing that for some weird reason isn't working for you. < 1503574333 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking about things not working for me < 1503574346 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like if the bot uses umlbox it doesn't work < 1503574360 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/MgndDub.png < 1503574388 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was working before we did any of the changes < 1503574403 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so some change must've broke it for the bot < 1503574473 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was what the bot was trying to print before any of the changes, you can see that in the line 142 the command worked (the cwd was /horus) https://ghostbin.com/paste/5n6eo < 1503574525 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503574575 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm a little out of ideas, seeing as we've spent the last half an hour explicitly trying to disable all debugging output. Also have to get to work again. But I guess you can try undoing things and seeing what happens. < 1503574597 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp bell < 1503574603 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's not the most efficient thing, but I can try to filter the stuff with regex < 1503574607 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dingas:The sound of a Baltic bell. It chimes like potatoes. \ obell:The obell is what we ring each time a new strip of the o webcomic is published. \ precious:precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°​_o)/¯ \ shachaf:Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He does < 1503574609 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing all python side < 1503574747 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-79-28.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1503575004 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503575181 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-pkrixgujyycwmost JOIN :#esoteric < 1503575279 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503575735 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1503576240 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503576701 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1503576828 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1503577198 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: NITRATE CHICKEN < 1503577522 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:3907:4d7b:980f:2bb3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503578591 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503579837 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503580331 0 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1503580449 0 :callum_!d4a10454@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.161.4.84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503580588 0 :callum_!d4a10454@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.161.4.84 QUIT :Client Quit < 1503581350 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1503582335 0 :S1!~s1feha@p200300886B4214895A946BFFFED92B20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503583230 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503583688 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503583960 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503584006 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503585538 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1503585587 0 :zseri!5e86df4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.223.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503585634 0 :zseri!5e86df4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.223.79 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1503586006 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1503586465 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1503586556 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Concept: a language whose programs are a binary tree < 1503586579 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like iota? < 1503586588 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1503586618 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or any of those combinator languages < 1503586752 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1503586882 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoOOOOOOOOOOoooooooou. < 1503587544 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1503588943 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcbdinq5hqv20b.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1503591170 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503592847 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503593097 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie since I believe that arch might be causing the issues, I've installed debian on my laptop/server. I'm trying to install umlbox on it, applying most of the fixes you gave me (I've got it to build properly), but I'm getting this when trying umlbox < 1503593133 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/ep4uc < 1503593554 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind fizzie, it was a typo I made when applying fixes. Sorry. < 1503593591 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie in debian umlbox works properly, so the issue is caused by Arch most likely < 1503593747 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working on a concept for a BF derivative which works on a queue. < 1503593786 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that means it's already obviously TC... well, if I include looping instructions < 1503593792 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :but will I? mw ha ha ha :P < 1503594087 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503594165 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH! I think my ISP is causing routing problems again < 1503594176 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imodium < 1503594182 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or DNS problems < 1503594201 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs wob_jonas
< 1503594212 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1503594225 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull. < 1503594233 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: < 1503594239 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :ExpensiveEmpty: < 1503594248 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah < 1503594265 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :CheapHalfFull: < 1503594271 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DNS problems apparently < 1503594278 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :PricelessBottomlessAbyss: < 1503594523 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ah reading fail < 1503594609 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... it's possible that the problem isn't on my side this time < 1503594629 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that it isn't on the side of my ISP this time < 1503594671 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, isup.me is sometimes giving timeouts for me, which is scary < 1503594708 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: yello. < 1503594757 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fizzie, if anything it seems like it breaks with virtualenvs < 1503594824 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/qHm2eb0.png < 1503595128 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can't tell on which side the error is < 1503595408 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1503596493 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had a thought. < 1503596520 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know there are many brainfuck derivatives, but let's just be shocked, surprised, and eternally grateful that no languages have been based on ut yet. < 1503596987 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503597028 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, where was fungot tested? < 1503597028 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: hey, t-rex, i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. they'd failed to deliver it to the king of all that i survey! i am a good friend, t-rex, but, uh, < 1503597857 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[073D14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52933&oldid=19990 5* 03Programmer5000 5* (-19) 10 < 1503598558 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1503598729 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503598876 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1503598939 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503598950 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1503599656 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503599919 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503600498 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503600634 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503600755 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503601790 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fizzie, I feel like I should show you the result of all the help you've offered to me the last days < 1503601854 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1503601929 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/jCYgJNw.png < 1503602181 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:c8d3:28a1:d491:a0ab JOIN :#esoteric < 1503603021 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:c8d3:28a1:d491:a0ab QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503603930 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Concept: values which can either be 3 or 2 - as in, "x == (3 or 2)" will return true whether x == 3 or x == 2 < 1503604147 0 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503604308 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a dialect of BF in which the angled brackets must be balanced be TC? < 1503604333 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. >< is valid, but >> isn't. >[<] wouldn't be valid, either, but >+<[>-<] would be (if a bit redundant :P) < 1503604333 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :balanced together with square brackets or separately? < 1503604337 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if together, it's not TC < 1503604350 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean. < 1503604361 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is [>]< valid? < 1503604366 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1503604372 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :...ah. < 1503604411 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if separately, then surely it's not a serious limitation, you just put a zillion > to the start of the program and a zillion < to the end of the program and that fixes all the balance < 1503604445 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1503604453 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a proof that balancing them together isn't TC? < 1503604469 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it yourself, I don't want to spoil it early < 1503604471 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not hard < 1503604504 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1503604545 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you know that I'm an idiot? < 1503604602 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you couldn't move the cell you were checking in a while loop. < 1503604622 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that the number of cell spaces you can move would be limited to the number of >s. < 1503604634 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even then, with unbounded cells... < 1503604940 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:b001:8f1b:51b8:8d5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503605022 0 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1503605169 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503605569 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503605587 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503606564 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503606584 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503606960 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:b001:8f1b:51b8:8d5 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503606966 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa < 1503606988 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you foooooools! SUNDAY IS THE LAST DAY OF THE WEEK, NOT THE FIRST < 1503607025 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was the first day of the week, then the weekend would be friday and saturday, and you would work sunday to thurday! < 1503607034 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Sunday is definitely the first day of the week. < 1503607055 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, sunday is part of the weekend! < 1503607070 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore the week begins on monay < 1503607082 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:2556:3c62:a960:fdfb JOIN :#esoteric < 1503607090 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weekend is a vague blob around the boundary between weeks < 1503607111 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the weekend id the last two days of the week, saturday and sunday < 1503607123 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the week goes Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... < 1503607132 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, as they're called in Hebrew, Firstday, Secondday, Thirdday, ... < 1503607144 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well hebrew is wrong then < 1503607147 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In German, Wednesday is called "midweek" < 1503607153 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's in the middle of the week. < 1503607159 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the week starts on Sunday. < 1503607173 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in germany, the week starts on monday < 1503607193 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wednesday is the mid of the week, because saturday and sunday is the weekend :p < 1503607204 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not called "midworkweek" < 1503607206 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: numbers for week days is great, and several languages uses it for at least some of the days, but it's a bad choice because some languages use sunday=0 and some use sunday=1 < 1503607209 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you report to work each sunday in Israel? < 1503607225 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard choice these days is sunday=0 or sunday=7, but we don't change the names based on them < 1503607231 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the weekend in Israel is Friday-Saturday < 1503607252 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, names originating from midweek are also used for both thursday and wednesday < 1503607283 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" It's not called "midworkweek"" => that wouldn't even make sense. the concept of only five workdays per week is much newer than the names in almost any languages < 1503607322 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Right, so Wednesday being the middle of the Mon-Fri week doesn't make sense. < 1503607410 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I personally like the classical alchemical association of days of week with the antique metals and panets. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metals_of_antiquity#Symbolism for a table. < 1503607535 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the problem with trying to decide whether the week starts with sunday or monday has the problem that not only the choice is very much culturally ingrained in many places and changing it would be confusing because people would misread calendars, but also that both choices have a religious motivation that people could be sensitive about. < 1503607644 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the metal association is great, because most languages already have distinctive words for the seven classical metals, so it's easy to make up names for the days of week based on them < 1503607686 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, can you believe religion is so popular? < 1503607689 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so bizarre. < 1503607781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the religion doesn't even really matter. some of the religious culture remains even without the religion, i.e. in people who don't believe in the religion, and that can still matter here < 1503607788 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tradition and stuff < 1503607818 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some of the languages already use the classical planet association for naming some of the days < 1503607881 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's just one slight problem: apparently traditional Chinese medicine associates gold with Venus instead of with the Sun, which could be confusing < 1503607933 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://kate.io/blog/2017/08/22/weird-python-integers/ < 1503607953 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Slavic languages implicitly number Monday as day number one" < 1503608199 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:2556:3c62:a960:fdfb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503608252 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: woah < 1503608277 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :leave me alone < 1503608492 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, wait. Was that "leave me alone" because my message didn't have enough information in it, or just because you hold a grudge? I'm not trying to be rude, I sincerely want to know because I just want to be friends. < 1503608547 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Granted that "<shachaf18> It's so bizarre." only has slightly more information in it, but that's besides the point.) < 1503608823 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I hold a grudge. < 1503608924 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to be your friend, I want you to leave me alone. You can't expect everything you say to be taken independently of everything else. < 1503609029 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :itc: awkward people having awkward conversations. < 1503609191 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I even do to you? < 1503609560 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: I am also confused < 1503609581 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had always thought that shachaf hated me for a reason... < 1503609583 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:3907:4d7b:980f:2bb3 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503609604 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wondered on how I could improve on that, hopefully becoming a better person myself... but now I'm just... speechless. < 1503609616 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not literally speechless, I can still type words here, but you know what I mean. < 1503609671 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :A while back I decided that I would try to increase the length of every message I sent here - I thought the reason shachaf hated me was because they sore what I was typing as spammish, so I resolved to attempt to reduce that. < 1503609700 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... is it even worth trying anymore? < 1503609704 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that doesn't seem strange to me, because ruby integers work similarly, except that there every integer up to like 2**30 or 2**62 (depending on pointer size) is a small integer. I think even some schemes work like that too, with the eq? operator. < 1503609777 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: But those aren't heap objects that can be mutated, are they? < 1503609797 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, those aren't < 1503609863 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, in ruby, true and false and nil are also handled specially as not pointing to real objects, even though there doesn't seem to be a reason for that. I think it would be easier to handle them as singleton statically allocated objects. < 1503609870 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... but why are integers heap objects anyway? would it not be faster to keep them mutable? < 1503609887 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, do whatever you want. < 1503609897 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: large integers have to be heap objects because they're bignums and can't be stored in a word < 1503609916 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but why would small integers be heap objects < 1503609937 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, all of this is about ruby 1.8, there's been internals changes since then that I didn't follow much < 1503609940 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there an specific address whre the number 7 is stored < 1503609967 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the way it stores code has been replaced by some much more insane mechanism, and I don't understand why. apparently they bought into the "bytecode" buzzword or something. < 1503609990 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god did they roll their own bytecode < 1503610003 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: for sparing memory and cache. there are often many copies of the number 7 alive, and creating a new object for it every time would be wasteful < 1503610009 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python that is < 1503610021 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ruby small integers aren't pointing to any object < 1503610029 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: but all teh pointers to 7 are 64 bits anyway < 1503610070 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmm unlesss < 1503610076 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ruby, the objects are either pointers (16-aligned) to a real object, or small values for a few special objects like nil, false, true, and a few more, or odd numbers for representing a small integer, or numbers that are IIRC 15 mod 16 for symbol objects < 1503610099 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: sure, the pointers themselves are, but you don't need separate copies of what it points to < 1503610131 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the pointers themselves that get smaller, but the pointed objects. those still take up memory and cache and malloc time < 1503610134 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly cache < 1503610151 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why is 7 a pointed-to object? < 1503610166 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 should be stored directly not pointed somewhere < 1503610191 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: because this way you need fewer conditionals when you dereference an object pointer < 1503610210 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to check for ten special cases before dereferencing it like ruby does < 1503610229 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually it has to check only for two conditions, but still) < 1503610241 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(small values and 16-bit alignment) < 1503610245 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, but you end up checking its type after dereferencing anyway.... < 1503610258 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503610275 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you end up checking its methods and class and all sorts of stuff like that, not always the one "type" thing < 1503610289 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an OO language < 1503610291 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all objects are similar < 1503610315 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't just 30 differently typed objects all with unrelated behavior like in scheme < 1503610330 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ruby and python there's a lot of things common in all or almost all objects, includign integers < 1503610336 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some objects have direct support at CPU level for their operations < 1503610336 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all objects have a class and methods < 1503610346 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but not all operations are like that < 1503610359 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to do the check for all non-integer objects too < 1503610380 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of code that rarely manipulates integers, but it would have to pay for the integer check every time it accesses any object < 1503610391 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since almost any object could just happen to be an integer < 1503610422 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby works like that, it has to check for integers/symbols and for special low-address objects all the time, even if you never use those objects < 1503610432 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though never using the low address objects is very unlikely) < 1503610446 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some of them are used a lot) < 1503610451 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even internally) < 1503610488 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of what a branch predictor does could realistically be replaced with a tracing JIT? < 1503610527 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fact is, ruby 1.8 doesn't care that much about heavy performance optimizations anyway < 1503610555 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want performance, it's up to the programmer to identify the inner loops and optimize them, possibly by calling to non-ruby code < 1503610569 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it still manages to be quite a fast language without such tricks < 1503610579 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually faster than perl 5, despite its reputation that it's slow < 1503610585 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 5 is horrible < 1503610595 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and perl 5 is hard to change because < 1503610606 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... I'm now wondering where C, compiled with tcc -run, ends up in the set of interpreted languages < 1503610620 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has published its bad API so early that there's too much code using it and all the stupid internal details are fixed now < 1503610650 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: it always depends on what kind of code you're running < 1503610682 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how much optimization you're willing to do when writing the code < 1503610695 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are people who optimize perl5 code, even code that would be easier to write in C < 1503611176 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for esoteric reasons) < 1503611567 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATMunn: hi. < 1503611572 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hi < 1503611604 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you were referring to something recent < 1503611633 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was recent, but don't mention it here < 1503611831 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1503611844 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it < 1503611851 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wont mention tho as you said < 1503612288 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Lazy evaluation14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52934&oldid=46163 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+169) 10 < 1503612545 0 :propumpkin!?@? NICK :contrapumpkin < 1503613084 0 :zseri!5e86df4f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.223.79 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1503613926 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503615158 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503615212 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1503615261 0 :ATMunn!?@? NICK :wall < 1503615268 0 :wall!?@? NICK :ATMunn < 1503615301 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcbdinq5hqv20b.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1503616512 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should introduce a new element system because I'm not satisfied with either the Aristotelean nor the classical chinese system. My five elements would be stone, metal, plastic, cellulose, and protein. < 1503616655 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the concept of a two-level system where things could become their "oxidized" forms < 1503616667 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, say dirt, water and air -> ash, salt and smoke < 1503616680 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should shut up now before the grudge for no reason kicks in < 1503616709 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stone encompasses all mineral, gemstone, lime, sand, clay, concrete, plaster, and also all glass, pearl, seashell. Metal encompasses all the metals and semi-metals like aluminum. Plastic has all polymers including rubber, vinyl, pet. Cellulose includes wood and cotton and linen. Protein includes wool, horn, unicorn horn, nails. < 1503616741 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Liquids and gases and foodstuff would be outside the element system. < 1503616764 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the protein element only includes the non-edible forms like I listed above. < 1503616768 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is aluminum a semi-metal? Is aluminium a full metal? < 1503616772 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically those are edible, but still) < 1503616790 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's a question of terminology. It's a metal in this elemental system. < 1503616810 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some chemical terminology counts it as a semi-metal. < 1503616979 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a cyclic dominance order between these. Obviously because of rock-paper-scissors, stone beats metal, metal beats cellulose, and cellulose beats stone. < 1503617059 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1503617188 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503617321 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are lots of game elemental systems, but their goal isn't classifying solids or materials, but classifying damage types. Nethack has a strange pot-pourri, where the elements include fire, cold, poison, shock (lightning or electricity), magic, draining, and sleep. < 1503617357 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep is an element? :P < 1503617364 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1503617377 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are arrows dealing sleep damage too < 1503617387 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in nethack, but in other fiction < 1503617393 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this came up recently < 1503617399 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION activates his sleep magic
< 1503617419 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, magic is different. sleep isn't magic. < 1503617435 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yea < 1503617446 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are magic arrows or magic bullets too < 1503617590 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503617600 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic missile is always magical, force damage counts as magical in some games, and the magic bullets in Der Freischütz probably deal magic damage too < 1503617671 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think of magic as manipulating the elements, not as an element itself < 1503617696 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: element in this sense is a damage type < 1503617702 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1503617705 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fire, cold, lighting, etc < 1503617716 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but magic isn't among those in all such systems < 1503617725 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some game, magic vs nonmagic is a separate dimension from the element type < 1503617781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case there's normal fire and magical fire, normal bludgeoning and magical force, normal cold weather and magical cold that freezes you from inside no matter what clothing you wera < 1503617789 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1503617801 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also ordinary sleep and magical sleep < 1503617818 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack isn't like that < 1503617877 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some game I forget the name of they had just blunt, sharp, and fire damage < 1503617915 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :blunt, sharp and fire makes sense < 1503617930 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of < 1503617941 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a startegy game < 1503617950 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :startegy < 1503617994 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, M:tG doesn't have a proper elemental system, there's no fire damage or cold damage or blunt or edged or pierce weapons, < 1503618027 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anything that tries to distingiush damage has to care about (1) properties of the damage source, esp zone and color and type, (2) combat damage vs noncombat damage, and (3) properties of the damage target, esp player vs creature, and (4) amount of damage (damage comes in discrete damage events that can have any nonnegative integer amount) < 1503618135 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a few abilities of the source automatically modify the effect of the damage, these are lifelink, deathtouch, infect, wither. < 1503618219 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those apply to all damage dealt by the source, no matter why < 1503618511 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1503618528 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the future, I'll have to find a random person and start holding a grudge against them for no reason < 1503618582 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Age of Empires 3, there is "melee", "range" and "seige" attack < 1503618590 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hold a grudge against you for the reasons you talked about, among others < 1503618622 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: wait, only those? doesn't it have more? < 1503618631 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why you expect that you can be annoying for months and have each subsequent thing you say considered independently of everything before it. < 1503618717 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yeah, it doesn't distinguish between hack, pierce, and crush damage the way age of mythology does < 1503618753 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You mean when I'm trying my very hardest not to be annoying just so that you don't completely hate me anymore? < 1503618782 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I can be annoying, I readily admit that and try to stop it. But when I'm trying to stop it, I don't expect people to ignore that. < 1503618795 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't completely hate you. < 1503618815 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then how much hate do you feel? < 1503618823 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No hate. < 1503618832 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you have a grudge against me? < 1503618843 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that was your word, but sure. < 1503618875 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: just drop it. if shachaf doesn't want to listen to you, just ignore that. it's not like he got you banned from the channel or harasses you or any other such harm < 1503618894 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: No, because I want to be friends with people. What's wrong with trying to mend fences? < 1503618909 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: If you hold a grudge, doesn't that imply some level of hate? < 1503619132 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( Your friend making strategy sucks. )