< 1503446429 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls / < 1503446430 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr < 1503446568 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /home < 1503446569 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1503446586 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /opt < 1503446587 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1503447163 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`! bf_txtgen test < 1503447171 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :54 +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>-.>---.<-.+. [237] < 1503447245 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell mroman !bftxt_gen <-- EgoBot is dead, use `! bf_txtgen for HackEgo's version < 1503447245 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1503447259 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +++++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++>><<<<-]>-.>---.<-.+. < 1503447259 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1503447359 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie don't worry < 1503447376 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've spent the last hour and a half disassembling my old laptop so I can make a server with it < 1503447380 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try in a fresh install there < 1503447383 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm lucky < 1503447422 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Don't hold your breath. < 1503449210 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503449234 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503449337 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503451007 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503451139 0 :Antoxyde_!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-79-28.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503451566 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : uh, no, it's 2.7K <-- . o O ( int-e reveals his age ) < 1503451671 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503451730 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, some of the... Damn i cant even give a prononciation of the species name, are having a all-out war. <-- obviously, since they don't speak with sound hth < 1503451748 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, duh, right. < 1503451765 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :linbut shall prevail. moony: Linux umlbox 4.12.8-umlbox #1 Tue Aug 22 14:03:49 EDT 2017 x86_64 GNU/Linux < 1503451789 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use this handy ultraviolet lamp and paper figures < 1503451833 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this going to be the but of many jokes? < 1503451989 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :<\oren\> also boost jam can eat a bag of dicks <-- that's a pretty disturbing skill to have. < 1503452339 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever had cow cod soup? It's an easy skill to have < 1503452434 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ... hope not. < 1503452503 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( also cows don't have dicks hth ) < 1503452528 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cow is a hyponym of cow < 1503452609 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I you prefer to drink a jar of dicks you can have deer dick wine < 1503452634 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(banned from the 2009 olympics) < 1503452642 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008 < 1503452671 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother swapped some keys on my keyboard which causes trouble when I look at it < 1503453271 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1503453448 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503453549 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ech`olist < 1503454079 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503454101 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you should put the keys back into the proper places < 1503456200 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a brilliant idea < 1503456210 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it requires effort and gumption < 1503456386 0 :Warrigal_!?@? NICK :tswett < 1503456613 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( and i'm all out of gumption ) < 1503456637 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't know how one would kick ass and have gumption anyway < 1503457286 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1503459027 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had idea make up the mahjong with pokemon; before play game you will decide how many generations. There is also wild card, which is by elements, and can only substitute for any card of that element, but no more than one per set (including pair), and cannot make ambiguous chii calling with wild cards. Two kind of sequences are possible, which is numeric sequences and evolution sequences, and some sequences can be both. < 1503459251 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503459808 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503459948 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If only one generation, then all evolution sequences are also numeric sequences (since a sequence is always three cards), but with more than one generation you can have evolution sequences that aren't numeric sequences.) Also your pair (and only pair) can substitute Ditto for any other card, but only if neither are wild cards. < 1503459951 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1503460298 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503460321 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I need an ais. < 1503460329 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell < 1503460329 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who should I tell? < 1503460372 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts on ais mask < 1503460405 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 Do you happen to know about the paradoxical construction where you have a program with arrays, and you simulate it without arrays by recursive calls to the main program whenever you want to read an array element? Is that construction possible and can you point to some writeup about it? < 1503460405 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1503460431 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never heard of such a thing. < 1503460501 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can simulate a read-only array with a function, but that's not recursion. < 1503460658 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems paradoxical because you're simulating a RAM machine by a stack machine, which is supposed to be impossible. You're not just stacking a whole array into a single bignum, you only have individual array elements on the stack or registers. < 1503460681 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you can give the main program an extra parameter that says "keep track of this element of this array, and return what's in it at this point in time" < 1503460691 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*some extra parameters < 1503460718 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't actually contradict the theory because you need a timer variable to know when to break out of each recursive simulation, that timer variable has to have at least as many values as many times the simulated program reads array elements, and you have such time variables on the stack. < 1503460739 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The runtime may blow up exponentially, and the stack may blow up to as big as the simulated runtime. < 1503460825 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, in each level of the simulation, you keep track of the array index, the time when you have to stop, the arguments of the main function, and the current time. Only the last one changes within a simulation level, but you can have lots of nested simulations. < 1503460860 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see the current time growing exponentially, so you need a bignum for it. < 1503460864 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time means how many times you have read array elements during the simulated program (although it can be more refined than that). < 1503460881 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, you only keep track of the time of the original program, it only blows up as much as the runtime of that one. < 1503460909 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok if you assume the runtime of that cannot be too high... < 1503460911 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The runtime of the simulation can blow up exponentially, but a time variable only stores the time in the runtime of the original program. < 1503460986 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can have at most as many levels of simulation as the original runtime, the new stack can have as many frames as the old stack times the number of nested simulation levels, and there's a constant number of timer variables in each level of the new stack. < 1503461031 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each new stack frame stores only a constant number of array elements (the one corresponding to the index you're interested about), but together the stack may hold a whole array. < 1503461085 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know either why the whole construction fails, or a reference to existing documentation of this construction, and I hope ais523 can provide it. < 1503461096 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1503461163 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but yes, in the original program you might only need integers as large as the size of arrays (you can imagine this as 16-bit or 32-bit integers if you wish), while the timers may need larger integers (if runtime is more than about 2**16 or 2**32). < 1503461188 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The runtime can be exponential in the amount of memory the program uses of course. < 1503461204 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did any of this make sense? < 1503461382 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if the runtime is really about as big as the number of possible memory states, then the timer has to be as big as the number of possible memory states too. But you rarely see such a long runtime in practice. < 1503461454 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So practical programs with short runtimes can be simulated with a short enough time variable, but then the simulation isn't practical because it can still take time exponential in the original runtime, and it will do so if the original uses random access in an essential way. < 1503461504 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1503461554 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Guess why the whole thing came up now.) < 1503461812 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1503461898 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503463605 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1503464913 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503465001 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1503465029 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503465461 0 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503466033 0 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503466033 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1503466322 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just now in vim I tried ":spl /dev/null" and surely enough it does work just as well as I expected it to do. < 1503466642 0 :doesthiswork1!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1503467750 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1503468155 0 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1503468202 0 :Lymia!lymia@magical.girl.lyrical.lymia.moe JOIN :#esoteric < 1503468217 0 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1503468264 0 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503468307 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1503468337 0 :mtve!~mtve@fortress3.myftp.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1503468400 0 :mtve!~mtve@fortress3.myftp.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1503470358 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503471378 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1503472030 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1503472541 0 :propumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503472689 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503472966 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1503472974 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503473048 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503473757 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503473808 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503475837 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503476001 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUBLEQ < 1503476007 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/index.html < 1503476020 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. Is this literally an OS for a CPU that only supports the SUBLEQ instruction? < 1503476150 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503477757 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18e6@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.230 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1503477943 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. < 1503477973 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the exact same kernel panic in this laptop in a fresh install too < 1503478021 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some sort of hardware failure? < 1503478038 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it, it happens in two completely different systems < 1503478060 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about UMLBox by the way < 1503478306 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze72an2h4vq1xn.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1503478436 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why is it shipped as a bunch of binaries < 1503478474 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like static linking? < 1503479610 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey fizzie, are you around here? < 1503480275 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503482398 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I imagine Google has a single sparse 2^47 byte image, directly mapped to all the servers that contains all the software :-P < 1503482413 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which would then be statically linked) < 1503482418 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not really) < 1503482538 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: h8r < 1503482544 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :monorepos are the best < 1503482827 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: I wasn't, then. < 1503482844 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^47 < 1503482846 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 140737488355328 < 1503482859 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 2^47/1e6 < 1503482861 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.40737488355328e8 < 1503482867 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1503482941 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not an entirely random number; 2^48 bytes tends to be the effective virtual memory space these days (which is limited by the page table hierarchy), though I've seen it go up to 2^52 somewhere. < 1503482964 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I left some space for more volatile data < 1503482997 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: If you're getting an "can't execute init" kernel panic, check that the umlbox-linux and init binaries have the same arch (e.g. via "file umlbox-linux", "file init"). < 1503483026 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting a "can't mount /" panic though < 1503483042 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's probably different then. < 1503483057 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(98,0) < 1503483070 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the exact same issue in two different computers, so I think that is not a hardware issue < 1503483108 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown-block sounds like a device driver (for uml's virtual block device?) is missing < 1503483127 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the full log < 1503483149 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/sogvd < 1503483164 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo $(cat /proc/devices) < 1503483165 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Character devices: 1 mem 2 pty 3 ttyp 4 tty 4 ttyS 5 /dev/tty 5 /dev/console 5 /dev/ptmx 10 misc 128 ptm 136 pts Block devices: 1 ramdisk 259 blkext 7 loop 98 ubd < 1503483170 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Did the umlbox-initrd.gz get built correctly? If you do "zcat umlbox-initrd.gz | cpio -t", does it print out "init"? < 1503483171 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ubd one < 1503483178 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's not supposed to be using ubd for root. < 1503483183 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, everything got built correctly < 1503483183 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1503483192 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: There's an initrd image, and the init never remounts root to anything else. < 1503483205 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Well, do that cpio check anyway. < 1503483236 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpio: premature end of archive < 1503483247 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not right then. < 1503483258 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm umlbox-initrd.gz && make umlbox-initrd.gz ? < 1503483303 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1503483311 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now running zcat says < 1503483315 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :init < 1503483317 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :1495 blocks < 1503483322 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds better. < 1503483328 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I build again? < 1503483334 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You shouldn't need to. < 1503483341 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just try running again and seeing what happens. < 1503483356 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1503483382 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you might need to make install, if you're using it "installed". < 1503483397 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I've ran the executable at the build dir to test < 1503483404 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the good news is that there's no kernel panic anymore < 1503483417 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bad news is that I lied. There's still a kernel panic, now there's a different one though < 1503483424 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it complain about the init? < 1503483428 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1503483431 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:09 kurolox: If you're getting an "can't execute init" kernel panic, check that the umlbox-linux and init binaries have the same arch (e.g. via "file umlbox-linux", "file init"). < 1503483435 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! exitcode=0x00000100 < 1503483460 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, will do < 1503483471 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's slightly different than what I'd expect from the "mismatched architectures" problem. < 1503483471 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, this may not be the most helpful behavior. "rootfs image is not initramfs (junk in compressed archive); looks like an initrd" < 1503483500 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you've progressed beyond this anyway) < 1503483507 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the log again, I feel like it's not an init problem < 1503483521 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/bk3uu < 1503483533 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it clearly did manage to run init. < 1503483545 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's what prints the "UMLBox starting" line.) < 1503483587 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think the kernel panic is just because that's how umlbox stops when it encounters problems. < 1503483603 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "mount(source, rtarget, type, 0, data): Device or resource busy" thing might be more relevant, but I'm not sure what's up with that. < 1503483628 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it looks like a missing root fs? I mean, "/bin/sh could not be executed" < 1503483664 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's not supposed to have that on the root fs, actually. :) < 1503483702 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :"init" is the only file that's supposed to be on /, the rest it gets by read-only-mounting the host's /bin et al. using UML's hostfs. < 1503483747 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, more exactly, it mounts the directories out of ["/usr", "/bin", "/sbin", "/lib", "/lib32", "/lib64", "/etc/alternatives", "/dev"] that exist on the host. < 1503483770 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, it should still have a /bin/sh that way. < 1503483786 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it mounting proc,sys,tmp twice? < 1503483797 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1503483799 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's my fault < 1503483803 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't use the -B flag < 1503483832 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it doesn't panic, but it seems like there are still problems < 1503483851 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it just takes a while to load < 1503483865 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: It's mounting them twice because the mount lines are there several times in the configuration file, but I don't know why *that* is. < 1503483887 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "Read configuration" section dumps out what it's got, and it looks like it's repeated three times, which doesn't sound normal. < 1503483934 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/rwuw9 < 1503483938 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :umlbox is stuck like this < 1503483943 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that it should give me a bash prompt < 1503483985 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might not be able to get interactive use out of the stdin/stdout thing. < 1503483992 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried typing in commands anyway? < 1503484023 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also try something like umlbox -v -B /bin/echo foo to check if a non-interactive command works out right. < 1503484024 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I can't see anything < 1503484052 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I can't stop the process with ctrl+c, I have to kill it < 1503484200 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503484221 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: for me, "umlbox -B echo foo" outputs just "foo" as expected, but "umlbox -v -B echo foo" (verbose mode) manages to leave terminal echo disabled. < 1503484282 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, I do get a working interactive bash prompt out of "umlbox -B bash". Wasn't expecting that. < 1503484333 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503484348 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry < 1503484349 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to reboot < 1503484360 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Heh, this is a new one for me: "cat: -: Resource temporarily unavailable" < 1503484380 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, about the echo foo < 1503484399 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't work, but I think that is because of how I had to kill the last process < 1503484419 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/hkd5s < 1503484505 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: There's something odd going on with the configuration file reading with your kernel, I don't know what. < 1503484576 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you compare the "Configuration" dump from line 3 onwards with the "Read configuration" one from line 90 on, the latter seems to oddly repeat the beginning half of the config. < 1503484645 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The length of the "Read configuration" dump for you is exactly 512 bytes, as well. I wonder if, in later kernels, the ubd implementation has changed to e.g. pad files up to a block boundary. < 1503484657 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, about the lenght of the read < 1503484659 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've noticed something < 1503484676 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried running the commaand in my other computer, and it seems like it just gets cut < 1503484703 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/pkqet < 1503484709 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ moun < 1503484709 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecognized command moun < 1503484728 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was mount before < 1503484752 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should end at the "run user ..." line, like it does in the outside-UML configuration dump. < 1503484785 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :On your other box it probably truncates at "moun" instead of "mount" because the gid is 100 in one, 1000 in the other, and 1000 takes up one character more of space. < 1503484837 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, so any idea? Should i try an older kernel? < 1503484873 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's what I think it is, you might be able to fix it by padding the config file with 0s up to a block boundary. < 1503484923 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe try changing the line in "umlbox" that says conff.write(confs) to something like conff.write(confs + "\0" * (512 - len(confs) % 512)) < 1503485019 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though I'm a little puzzled moony didn't encounter this issue, if it's some change in udb semantics in later kernels.) < 1503485087 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1503485089 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did something < 1503485151 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/op8u3 < 1503485160 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't see the echo anywhere, but there are no errors < 1503485210 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you check what happens if you try without the "-v" flag? The verbose mode terminal handling is kind of... odd. < 1503485226 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Of course you don't get any logs so chances are it'll just print nothing.) < 1503485230 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no output < 1503485253 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I should mention that umlbox always mess up the console formatting < 1503485271 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :after running umlbox through ssh for example, the cursor is static and nothing I write will be visible < 1503485285 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does that for me as well, though only with -v. < 1503485287 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my desktop everything I type seems to be tabbed over and over < 1503485294 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Running "reset" seems to fix it. < 1503485305 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, good to know < 1503485312 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/NJRC is what I get out. < 1503485337 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks pretty similar except I have an extra "ttyraw" in the generated config. < 1503485366 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so this is weird < 1503485374 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried to run bash again < 1503485396 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the cursor is static and everything is invisible, but it seems to recognize what I'm doing < 1503485417 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I can't see any "echo" or anything, but typing "exit" closes umlbox properly < 1503485432 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it's working but I can't see it, I don't know < 1503485435 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm guessing this is all something to do with the consoles. < 1503485450 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's because I'm doing it through ssh < 1503485454 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll check in my desktop < 1503485457 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out of curiosity, what do you get if you try "umlbox -B echo foo | cat" (so that the output's not a tty)? < 1503485494 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing < 1503485589 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there's no difference in my desktop. Same stuff happens. < 1503485715 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm somewhat stumped. I do think it's highly likely it's got something to do with either the UML console configuration, or umlbox-mudem. < 1503485722 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll have to head to work now. < 1503485745 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure thing. Thanks for all the help fizzie, I hope that I can get this solved eventually. < 1503486184 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd talk, but I'm honestly kind of scared to. < 1503486393 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1503486499 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/ :-P < 1503487237 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503487369 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric ::c < 1503488209 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503488518 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-79-28.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1503488681 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503491301 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: PULP CHICKEN < 1503492450 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:2994:c3de:2134:fd24 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503492621 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moin < 1503493653 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you see that MS agrees that git is better than hg < 1503493933 0 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1503494107 0 :ocharles!sid30093@musicbrainz/user/ocharles JOIN :#esoteric < 1503495411 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1503496860 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:79c5:4d28:5145:9a42 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503497994 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1503499007 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:2994:c3de:2134:fd24 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503499042 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1503499929 0 :zseri!5e86c2f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.194.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503500780 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503501639 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1503501888 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1503502963 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503506420 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503507579 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:79c5:4d28:5145:9a42 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1503507589 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, I wonder what happened to that Nomic game we planned. < 1503507626 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( You couldn't agree on the rules? ) < 1503507641 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should we try again? < 1503507696 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( What we really need is a website specifically for holding rules for Nomic games. ) < 1503507945 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: would you be interested in attempting to restart it? < 1503508137 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503508173 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503508460 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503509704 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1503510002 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503510320 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1503510370 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought about building one with lua as a rule-language and a basic rpg thingie underlying < 1503510804 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I created a channel named #esoteric-nomic for possible future nomic games. < 1503510907 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least the one I'm planning, anyway. < 1503511123 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503511486 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503511514 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi imode. I'm starting a new game of nomic in #esoteric-nomic if you're interested. < 1503511567 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Agrees with whom? < 1503511569 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see. < 1503511621 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/GabeAul/status/899691358889234432 < 1503511675 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, earlier, https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/bharry/2017/05/24/the-largest-git-repo-on-the-planet/ (hmm, should I read that) < 1503511957 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(indeed I should. just as the other companies aren't using vanilla hg, this isn't vanilla git either. not a surprise, really.) < 1503512228 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi rdococ. < 1503512236 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish I could but I've got work. :P < 1503512853 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1503513408 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503513725 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:a5d4:789e:37a4:3b27 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503515944 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503517269 0 :rdococ!?@? NICK :beacoc < 1503517285 0 :beacoc!?@? NICK :beakoc < 1503517566 0 :ATMunn!?@? NICK :atbeak < 1503517673 0 :atbeak!?@? NICK :beakymunn < 1503517708 0 :beakoc!?@? NICK :baeky < 1503517864 0 :beakymunn!?@? NICK :ATMunn < 1503517951 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03BlackCap 5* 10New user account < 1503518222 0 :baeky!?@? NICK :rdococ < 1503518854 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52920&oldid=52917 5* 03BlackCap 5* (+246) 10 < 1503518965 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503519000 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1503519050 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1503519550 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503519561 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hello < 1503519578 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to find you. I want to ask something. < 1503519625 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: huh, I was wondering why I hadn't seen you online for a while < 1503519626 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1503519672 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was up a bit irregularly. I'll be up more from September < 1503519708 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :re your lambdabot question, you can do a lot of functional tricks to simulate arrays, but recursively calling main isn't enough by itself because you only get one stack < 1503519730 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's why it's paradoxical < 1503519735 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1503519736 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you're limited to PDA levels of power < 1503519736 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503519746 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503519749 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one stack isn't enough if the stack symbols are from a fixed size alphabet < 1503519813 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have no temporaries, it IIRC isn't enough even if you have an infinitely large alphabet, unless the set of operations you allow on top-of-stack is Turing-complete even on just a single number < 1503519831 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the easiest way around is to encode a whole array into a bignum. this construction doesn't do that, it's more sneaky, but it still needs numbers as large as the runtime of the original (simulated) program, which in turn can be exponentially large in the memory size of the original program in worst case < 1503519847 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I think a bignum stack, increment, decrement, push, pop, conditional goto is not Turing-complete < 1503519882 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a functional language, you can implement an array as a function from the index to the element < 1503519890 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and assign to the array by wrapping it with more functions < 1503519897 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a different construction, but a fairly fun one < 1503519915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written down the construction more technically in http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2017-08.html%23d.2017-08-18.2460#comment-23792 , where it applies to the uncomputable esolang (1) and (3), but you can take just the Turing case < 1503519942 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't just use increment and decrement, but also equal-compare of bignums < 1503519952 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and copying of bignums < 1503519958 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the natural number cases of (0) and (1) are just bloop and floop respectively, aren't they? < 1503519971 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0) is definitely bloop < 1503519975 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: what are you comparing or copying them too? < 1503519976 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, how does floop work again? < 1503519988 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like bloop except it has infinite loops with break < 1503519991 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're copying a bignum from one stack entry (near the top) to another stack entry (near the top) < 1503519993 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(;;) { … break … } < 1503520008 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you're equal-comparing two bignums in two stack entries near the top < 1503520031 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ah right, which is clearly TC as you can use the top two stack entries as a minsky machine < 1503520033 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you still need increment and constants < 1503520044 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that point, how you simulate things is just a matter of programming < 1503520064 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but "just a matter of programming" is somewhat vague < 1503520083 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1503520093 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess this is more a question about programming techniques than about what's possible? < 1503520118 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have these operations, then you can also implement arithmetic (in exponential time) and store a whole array in a bignum, which is how the minsky construction works (if you have at least three bignums) < 1503520120 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it'd be interesting to try to constrain a language in such a way that you have to program it like that < 1503520145 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the minsky construction works with two bignums by using one of them to store a simulated tuple of three bignums < 1503520149 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really slow, but oh well :-) < 1503520161 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm still asking about this specific construction, which is a bit strange, because you really don't need integers larger than the runtime of the original program in the particular case simulated < 1503520165 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to put my half-finished toy neural net thing on Github: https://github.com/Taneb/net/blob/master/Main.hs < 1503520198 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you might need a write up of exactly how the construction works, then, because I haven't seen it < 1503520217 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, how many languages do we have which are TC only because they can use the call stack as one stack and an explicit data stack as another? < 1503520227 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a construction which feels like it should be more common than it actually is < 1503520230 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in this case David describes in the original blog article that the straightforward construction where you encode an array in a bignum does work in a finite case, < 1503520251 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also that it doesn't work in the infinite case, and how simulating arrays in the infinite case is VERY difficult < 1503520259 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least in general) < 1503520324 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TC only because they can use the call stack as one stack and an explicit data stack as another" => I don't recall any such language < 1503520360 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, Underload is one < 1503520374 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: no, Underload has complex stack elements < 1503520377 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it rarely comes up, because you'd either need an actual infinite stack for TC-ness, or if you want a practical language, then just two stacks are very impractical for general purpose programming < 1503520380 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means you have more than two stacks < 1503520388 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh! I misunderstood the construction used < 1503520393 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of it as a language in which the stacks are made out of other stacks < 1503520397 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1503520413 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that language I have imagined but haven't yet documented might be like this, < 1503520424 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least two stacks is the only way I can prove TC-ness, < 1503520484 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though there's a much better practical construction for random access of vast but possibly not infinite memory, where the accessible memory size grows at least double exponential in the code size, probably even faster than that < 1503520498 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't really need the two stacks construction for TCness < 1503520519 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you have to use the stacks at least a little for temporary values) < 1503520539 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will have to eventually document that language < 1503520633 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a data stack, a control stack, and a heap, you may get a G machine. < 1503520661 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1503520671 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503520692 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503520715 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of my attempt to write a language that's theoretically Turing-incomplete but can access so much storage that that basically never comes up except in programs that bruteforce for counterexamples < 1503520722 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, I've obviously never looked at the original G machine paper. It was intended to be an actual hardware design by the looks of it. < 1503520766 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well, 1985. < 1503520941 0 :augur!~augur@198-27-215-123.static.sonic.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503521073 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1503521241 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1503521245 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you have an ordinary computer with a CPU with a 48-bit physical address space, and have a disk interface that gets commands from a memory-mapped variable sized control block, and the sector address and sector size and count of sectors are in that command block, does that work for this? < 1503521261 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can access something like 2**2**48 bytes of memory, give or take a few < 1503521273 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: if that's all you have, it's clearly sub-TC < 1503521285 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a finite (even if very large) amount of memory < 1503521300 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language was going to make heavy use of the Ackermann function, so it could access way more memory than that < 1503521312 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but still a finite amount for any given program) < 1503521396 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well you can stack the construction. Use half of each address space for data, and the other half for some MMIO interface to the next level in the hierarchy < 1503521404 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't sub-TC what you asked for? "theoretically Turing-incomplete" < 1503521422 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: and then you get something that may be TC. < 1503521436 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fiendishly difficult to implement ;-) < 1503521453 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes < 1503521459 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wanted to be closer to TC than that < 1503521460 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you want much more than 2**2**48 bytes? < 1503521462 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1503521475 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the language scaled with the size of the problem < 1503521498 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think part of the hope was to be able to express any number that humans are capable of describing without resorting to diagonalization tricks, and know for a fact exists < 1503521546 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sort of number which can't be calculated by most Turing-incomplete languages is "the first counterexample to the Riemann hypothesis" (you can't set an appropriate memory limit in advance because you don't know how large it is) but we don't know for certain it exists < 1503521588 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ResPlicate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52921&oldid=45669 5* 03BlackCap 5* (+713) 10 < 1503521630 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in that case my language *might* actually work, if you restrict the size of one of the two stacks. I think an ackermann construction for accessing memory in many hierarchies might be possible to implement, but I'm not sure yet, I'm only sure of at least double exponential. But I also can't prove that it can't still random-access infinite me < 1503521631 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mory with a fixed code. < 1503521665 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean double exponential or ackermann in the code size.) < 1503521673 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The Calculus of Construction should get you quite far. < 1503521680 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the largest numbers we can describe are basically modifications of the "the smallest number not nameable in…" trick, only programmatically rigorous < 1503521725 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"express any number that humans are capable of describing without resorting to diagonalization tricks" => wait, which humans? if you take the right humans, that's a very very very very very large number, much larger than I can imagine < 1503521789 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07ResPlicate14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52922&oldid=52921 5* 03BlackCap 5* (+107) 10 < 1503521798 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: there are some pretty insane humans out there :-) < 1503521808 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was thinking more of the set of humans that actually exist and name numbers < 1503521823 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than the set of all hypothetical humans who might want to name large numbers < 1503521829 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this reminds me of http://djm.cc/bignum-results.txt < 1503521943 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean if you take numbers whose descriptions only like ten mathematicians in the world understand, then you get numbers much larger than the numbers I can describe, even with a no-diagonization restriction < 1503521991 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :numbers I can actually imagine using go to only tetration size like 2***(2**512) or something, but I can describe bigger ones < 1503522033 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you take numbers that a million humans can describe, those aren't so big that I can't imagine them < 1503522043 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: there's a similar thread on PPCG but the rules are really screwed up < 1503522047 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all these about humans who live today < 1503522051 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are debates on whether the rules should be fixed or not < 1503522079 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fixed as in you freeze those rules and start a separate thread with better rules? < 1503522202 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are debates on how to fix it, too < 1503522214 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, you might be interested about the non-computable (0) language family that David described, he mentions a lot of interesting details < 1503522217 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, start a new thread, change the rules of the existing thread, or something else? < 1503522241 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( diagonalize over the thread ) < 1503522375 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: that other contest has a rule for exactly that, it says a new guess counts as better than an older guess only if the number it names is significantly bigger than that older guess. so just adding one to a previous guess isn't enough, and "significantly bigger" is very loose. < 1503522399 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to use very different techniques than any previous answer to get the biggest number so far < 1503522405 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean to get the best answer so far < 1503522494 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: looks like it's still broken: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/18028/largest-number-printable < 1503522523 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ban on multiplication, in particular, is highly arbitrary < 1503522526 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1503522585 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ban on multiplication? so then posting a max size answer saying "1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+"... is the only thing you can do? < 1503522636 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: no, there are a ton of things that aren't banned < 1503522645 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication isn't really important, you can implement it using nested loops if you need it < 1503522674 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1503522678 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that's broken < 1503522722 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your printed number will be divided by the cube of the number of bytes you used for your solution." seems useless < 1503522761 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: definitely < 1503522767 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are so many useless rules like that < 1503522777 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503522788 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it works as a bignum competition because the rules don't significantly change the results you can get, but it doesn't work because the rules are so arbitrary < 1503522804 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by stack exchange rules you can't post a duplicate with better rules… < 1503522879 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :> floor $ 1/0 < 1503522882 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1797693134862315907729305190789024733617976978942306572734300811577326758055... < 1503522902 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it doesn't print the whole thing < 1503522929 0 :zseri!5e86c2f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.134.194.241 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1503522941 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that comes from the "largest number in 10 bytes of code" thread on PPCG; it's certainly not as large as it could be, but the fact that floor(infinity) is a specific, finite integer in Haskell is fairly amazing) < 1503522952 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1503522965 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503523141 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much score would that give you if you find a programming language where the empty code prints a positive number? < 1503523170 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such languages exist, e.g. Retina < 1503523175 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which prints 1 upon running the empty program < 1503523218 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually, it prints the number of characters in stdin + 1, but PPCG normally assumes that stdin is empty) < 1503523310 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Commodore 64 boots to saying " **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 ****\n\n 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BYTES FREE\n\nREADY.\n" does that count as printing 38911 as the largest number? or even 65536 because the 64K clearly stands for that in that context? < 1503523379 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have told you once, I think? but now I'm happier not needing PPCG rules memorised :-) < 1503523393 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, away for a bit, I need to go buy food before the shops shut < 1503523397 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know, it doesn't really matter < 1503523582 0 :AnotherTest_!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcbdinq5hqv20b.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1503523664 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26ze72an2h4vq1xn.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503523664 0 :AnotherTest_!?@? NICK :AnotherTest < 1503523872 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed doesn't work, it prints the size of its input file if you give the filename as the command-line argument. I had to install ed for this. Damn you, debian. I had specifically installed bc and dc before, but I missed ed. < 1503523888 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I know I don't use it often, but it's also a very small program. < 1503523958 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope they didn't choose to not install it in base because of some stupid security problem, like how it can execute arbitrary things if you give untrusted input as ed commands. < 1503523976 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/stupid/stupid alleged/ < 1503523992 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, the kind of things some people complain about < 1503524059 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this is a unix distribution, not a padded mental institute cell with your shoelaces removed < 1503524078 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they probably just removed it because it's not really essential and nobody was using it < 1503524105 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1503524109 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic error message < 1503524201 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, help me google a thing < 1503524211 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :months ago i found a paper on arxiv < 1503524219 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dying-wish => wait, just one season? < 1503524229 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about a new theoretic model that was more cache aware < 1503524247 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: oh, that already sounds easier than what I asked. the paper you're looking for probably exists, the one I asked might not. < 1503524277 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :several algorithms have a different runtime in that model, for instance heap sort is O(n log^2 n) < 1503524316 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I've gone 10 months since installation and no ed. < 1503524323 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not as cache-aware as a six-tape Turing machine, right? < 1503524350 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll ask somewhere else < 1503524498 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is log^2 n supposed to mean log(n)^2 or log(log(n))? < 1503524505 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's the former, but that's pretty confusing. < 1503524526 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: (log n)^2 < 1503524615 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the former < 1503524648 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very rare to write log log n as log^2 n, because that would be too confusing. people rather write up to four iterations of log explicitly, and use other notations when they really need to write positive number of iterations < 1503524659 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you rarely need more than four iterations of log < 1503524680 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're in log* n territory < 1503524704 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just log log log log does appear in that stupidly specific limit distribution theorem) < 1503524713 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps you're saying that it'll be essentially constant anyway... < 1503524730 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like that \alpha from Tarjan's analysis of disjoint set forests < 1503524777 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me when you have an algorithm that takes inverse busy beaver time. < 1503524837 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1503524849 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun < 1503524911 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I really don't see how that would happen < 1503525555 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back, but not for long < 1503525561 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be properly back in a few hours (not sure yet) < 1503525580 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1503525594 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503525616 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, something that came up in one of the NetHack channels and I thought "b_jonas might know this": is there a mythological or famous fictional creature that's noted for being afraid of the dark? < 1503525644 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :afraid of the dark... hmm let me think < 1503525747 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, humans are sometimes portrayed as being afraid of darkness < 1503525781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... how dark do you want or for how long? there's a few ridiculous photosynthetizing humanoids that know they can't live in the dark for more than a few days < 1503525830 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1503525832 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: we basically (for gameplay reasons) wanted a powerful monster that wouldn't enter corridors, and I thought being afraid of the dark would be a good way to explain that (corridors are normally unlit, so "won't enter dark squares" and "won't enter corridors" have sufficient gameplay similiarity) < 1503525858 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's something about shades or shadows, but that probably wasn't being afraid as such < 1503525869 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could have a monster that's powered by light somehow? it seems like the sort of thing that Doctor Who would have, although I can't offhand think of a monster from there that actually is < 1503525890 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wouldn't enter corridors... you can just have monsters that are too big or afraid of narrow tunnels or afraid of being surrounded for strategic reasons < 1503525920 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"too big" is an obvious thought but it doesn' really work in NetHack, which has single-square dragons < 1503525938 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'd better go, thought I'd just throw this out there first in case it inspired you to think of something "in the background" < 1503525961 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1503525964 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that behaves like a human child intellectually could be afraid of the dark, but that works better for an ally than for a normally hostile creature < 1503525978 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: bye < 1503526071 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps an animal that was once captured in a cage and REALLY didn't like that might be afraid of tight spaces so much that he usually remains far from even walls < 1503526097 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course nh already have stationary monsters that aren't generated in corridors < 1503526242 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the olist monster in the dark is afraid of the dark. < 1503526367 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :too big isn't impossible in nethack, it's just either hard to implement (a long worm like creature that takes up say four tiles forming a square) or hard to flavor (a one-tile monster bigger than even krakens and elder dragons) < 1503526682 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can implement four-tile creatures, then you could change some dragons to elder dragons. you can then turn the quest dragons to be that large, they both have a suitable map. < 1503526693 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(krakens could also be big, but they already don't go to corridors) < 1503526725 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also find other very big creatures in mythology and fiction < 1503526931 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503527365 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, besides fizzie and gregor nobody here knows about UMLBox, right? < 1503527385 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503527579 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much black magic did you put into UMLBox? 'umlbox -B -v echo DEADBEEF' doesnt work with the error of https://ptpb.pw/Evrs, yet my bot's sandbox works as if nothing is wrong. < 1503527640 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:a5d4:789e:37a4:3b27 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I do see it echo DEADBEEF halfway through < 1503527740 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, so it seems like moony kernel panic happens after the sandbox program sucessfully runs < 1503527744 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might explain why it works < 1503528410 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well fizzie, I'm quite sure the conff issue you helped me with before isn't related to my actual issue of stuff not running on UMLBox, since moony does have the same conff issue, but it happens afters he runs the command sucessfully. < 1503528433 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, I'm sharing the fix you gave me before with him to see if there's any difference with his stuff < 1503528496 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to make it a bit tidy for when you see this, this is the output of 'umlbox -B -v echo DEADBEEF' for me and moony < 1503528533 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me: https://ghostbin.com/paste/as6r3 < 1503528547 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: https://ptpb.pw/Evrs < 1503528633 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Looks like you're getting the same "configuration repeats" thing we saw when debugging. < 1503528637 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as above. < 1503528656 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that'd explain why the bot takes forever to process < 1503528658 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it wouldn't really stop it from running the command, it'd just do some odd things afterwards. < 1503528676 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure why it doesn't work for me < 1503528706 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've noticed that when moony runs something it seems like " | cat" is added to the command < 1503528712 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my output doesn't do that < 1503528723 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it does when it thinks the output isn't a tty. < 1503528736 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. < 1503528738 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, in the case of my bot, it isnt. < 1503528769 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait. *makes connection* rdococ has been in ##werewolf all along and i never noticed. how. < 1503528779 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :...:P < 1503528789 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1503528830 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the | cat is added to make the command that gets run inside the UML kernel to similarly see a non-tty output. Because otherwise it sees the UML console, which always is a tty as seen from the inside, even if the output fd it's redirected to isn't. < 1503529328 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to try something out, maybe (temporarily) change the umlbox script's line "con1=" + childStdin + ",fd:" + str(childStdout), to instead be "con1=" + childStdin + ",fd:" + stdoutws, (and keep using the -v flag) < 1503529374 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1503529387 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. People figured out how to make dpkg work in linbut lol < 1503529631 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I get an error. < 1503529647 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/cc4g5 < 1503529657 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ input ../tty1 < 1503529657 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :open(rfile, O_RDONLY): No such device or address < 1503529684 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, that should've been: "con1=" + childStdin + "," + stdoutws, < 1503529699 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now you ended up with the argument 'con1=fd:0,fd:fd:1' which is one "fd:" too many. < 1503529778 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/tkxnn < 1503529846 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The error changed, fizzie. Now the device is busy. < 1503529876 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's probably because it's using stdoutws (aka fd:1) also for that other console spec. < 1503529919 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could definitely try to work around that as well, but I'm just puzzled as to why it's not working in the first place. < 1503530140 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know how to use jenkins to talk to another jenkins < 1503530166 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? jenkins < 1503530210 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :jenkins? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1503530281 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503530301 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1503530328 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a shame that there's no way to know what's wrong with it < 1503530354 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want to get UMLBox working, but I guess that's enough trying for today < 1503530427 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, hmm. < 1503530453 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try to strace the kernel execution, but it might be doing a bit too much for that to be readable. < 1503530480 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's definitely something odd when it comes to the terminal handling. For me, umlbox works fine, but running it once somehow manages to break the stdin of subsequent commands, which I don't even understand how that's possible. I mean, look at this: http://sprunge.us/NKbS < 1503530496 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, a lot of weird stuff happens too < 1503530520 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I try to run sudo, I'm completely unable to input the password in the same terminal where I ran umlbox before < 1503530582 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really that great for interactive use, it might be best to stick with having some other program call umlbox for you, the way it works on HackEgo. < 1503530594 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows, it's even borderline possible it would work in that context. < 1503530598 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in order to check if the issue is if there's no output or if there's no visible, I should use umlbox to make a permanent change (ie touch a file or make a dir), which folder is writtable by umlbox? < 1503530671 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing on the host is writable by default. You can pass in an extra argument like -fw /some/dir which will mount /some/dir from the host to the guest in read-write mode. < 1503530754 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem like it runs the command < 1503530758 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no output at all < 1503530784 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried with umlbox -B -v -fw /test touch /test/didit < 1503530790 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing in /test < 1503530799 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.170 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1503530811 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does /test exist, and do you have write permissions in it as the user you run umlbox as? < 1503530824 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also what do the logs look like?) < 1503530828 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and I ran umlbox as sudo < 1503530852 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the output: https://ghostbin.com/paste/8xyvf < 1503530922 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I wonder if that might have something to do with permissions *inside* the UML. Try adding -s as well? < 1503530933 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It runs the command as root inside the UML.) < 1503530951 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1503530953 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1503530959 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of trying to run umlbox with sudo < 1503530972 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made myself owner of /test and tried again without sudo < 1503530975 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this time it worked < 1503531082 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that might be because the umlbox init doesn't really expect UML to be executed as root. < 1503531118 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses uid/gid 0 to mean "unset" for the uid/gid it runs the command as, and when they're unset it picks random uid/gid. < 1503531141 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox, get in ##werewolf < 1503531144 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I guess in general there shouldn't be any reason to try running umlbox as root.) < 1503531150 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1503531160 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least now I know that the stuff runs in umlbox even if I can't see it < 1503531162 0 :TieSoul!~TieSoul@2a02:a448:4a62:1:a5d4:789e:37a4:3b27 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1503531172 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/dlA01qW.png < 1503531183 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we're back at the issues with console output < 1503531188 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox, ##werewolf < 1503531194 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, okay < 1503531308 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Out of curiosity, what happens if you try something like this: http://sprunge.us/dTBG < 1503531321 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1503531495 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: https://ghostbin.com/paste/dvb8c < 1503531505 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw. < 1503531523 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you're still affected by whatever mysterious output redirection problems you're having. < 1503531529 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :So odd, though. < 1503531543 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe redirecting the output to a file? < 1503531564 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean, that should *work*, but it's more than a little clumsy. < 1503531608 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are stuff that I'm not sure about though < 1503531717 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you *are* seeing the init's output (and therefore clearly getting *something* out), if you really just want to hack it to make it work, chances are you could just fiddle with the conX= and subprocess.call arguments in the umlbox script until you hit a combination that works. < 1503531799 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And/or the "output ..." stanza it writes to the config file.) < 1503531814 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure if it really works though < 1503531829 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll try building a current kernel and see how that goes for me. < 1503531850 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, when I try something with umlbox that shouldn't end inmediately (ie: the bot I'm trying to run) still ends inmediately < 1503531856 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1503531859 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this might be interesting < 1503531864 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's output after the run < 1503531874 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing relevant, but there's something < 1503531889 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/2jhto < 1503531904 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcbdinq5hqv20b.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1503531914 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that can help identifying the issue? < 1503532121 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie if it's useful for what you want to do, I'm running 4.12.8 in the host, and also 4.12.8 as the uml kernel < 1503532136 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1503532145 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1503532185 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like "uninitialized urandom read" is a kernel message, which probably explains why you're seeing it. < 1503532197 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd go to the same console all those debugging lines do. < 1503532249 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1503532270 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually fizzie, if you feel like replicating the issues I'm having, doing a fresh arch linux install should do the trick < 1503532301 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what I've done in my laptop, I installed it fresh yesterday and it's having the exact same issues I'm having with my desktop, so chances are you will have them too < 1503532305 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a hacky trick to try, locate the lines in the umlbox script that do the input ../tty1 and output ../tty1 and change them to input /console and output /console instead. (/console is a file the umlbox init makes and uses for its own output.) < 1503532318 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1503532324 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Here's a funny thing: http://sprunge.us/NKbS < 1503532388 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is that second cat running inside or outside umlbox? < 1503532396 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Outside. < 1503532415 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It leaves the terminal in that state, and I don't know of a way to undo it. < 1503532434 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so that error message is EAGAIN < 1503532439 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no such file or directory < 1503532459 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/kvpg5 < 1503532485 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you find out which system call is erroring out? "strace cat" would normally be enough, you might need to redirect the output to a file though (strace has an -o option to write to a file) < 1503532500 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :kurolox: Oh, sorry, make that "../console" instead. Looks like init prepends "/host/" to it. < 1503532506 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that one of the standard file descriptors has somehow been set to non-blocking mode, that'd be an easy way to cause spurious EAGAINs < 1503532527 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ooh, nonblocking, that sounds plausible. < 1503532549 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY < 1503532552 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I GET OUTPUT NOW < 1503532572 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I see why the bot wasn't working, I wasn't mounting /mnt so it couldn't read the bot file < 1503532596 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love you fizzie, I can't thank you for all the help you've been offering me the last days < 1503532652 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't? < 1503532659 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something a bit weird though, fizzie < 1503532684 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like I can see the output by running stuff with -v, but nothing without it < 1503532695 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah -- read(0, 0x7f086c62c000, 131072) = -1 EAGAIN (Resource temporarily unavailable) -- and: http://sprunge.us/FCWe < 1503532721 0 :kurolox!~Kurolox@81.red-88-4-114.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ghostbin.com/paste/6pffa < 1503532739 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sounds like a mistake in the shell somehow? it shouldn't be letting applications it runs permanently change the mode of its file descriptors