00:03:05 hmm, socat crashed, hasn't done that in a while... not feeling happy about that 00:10:32 int-ello. you managed that how? 00:10:54 I don't KNOW. 00:11:22 I mean it involves SSL, but still it should not crash. 00:11:35 -!- lambdabot has joined. 00:11:43 @bot 00:11:51 :) 00:12:31 @snack 00:12:37 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps 00:13:08 lambdie is of the feminine persuasion? 00:14:14 and angelic https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot 00:14:30 -!- molum has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:14:51 (I expect a lot of that page is outdated, but I'm linking to it for the avatar.) 00:15:20 -!- molum has joined. 00:16:42 oh great. now we can get into that endless internet dispute about whether angels have a gender, where part of the problem is that there are tons of different creatures called angels with different properties (just like with dragons, trolls, fairies, werewolves, etc) but everyone is sure that the version they prefer is the only TRUE angels. 00:17:28 also on whether angels have wings, and by extension, whether balrogs have wings, whether balrogs can fly, whether balrogs are creatures of fire, and how large balrogs are 00:17:56 `? balrog 00:17:57 Balrogs live at the bottom of the world. 00:18:05 `? angel 00:18:06 angel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:07 `? dragon 00:18:08 Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels. 00:18:08 `? troll 00:18:09 troll? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:12 `? fairy 00:18:13 fairy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:14 `? fair 00:18:15 fair? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:16 `? fairies 00:18:17 fairies? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:19 `? werewolf 00:18:20 werewolf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:20 `? vampire 00:18:21 no, we don't need any of those 00:18:21 Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf. 00:18:23 `? garlic 00:18:24 garlic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:18:38 `? dwarf 00:18:39 dwarf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:19:56 angels are a bitch to be on the receiving end of. flying, buffs your other creatures, hard to get rid of... 00:25:30 A dwarf is like an invisible elf. You rarely see one, but it's there to help identify your problem when trouble strikes. 00:27:15 Not quite esoteric but these days it might be :) I have a public access multics instance up and available via ssh or mosh dps8@m.trnsz.com 00:27:21 -!- alercah_ has changed nick to alercah. 00:27:32 I am almost done with a PL/I gopher server :) 00:28:04 multics instance? wow. is it running on actual hardware, or simulated? 00:28:06 trellon. 00:34:47 also, is the ssh daemon itself running on the multics instance? 00:38:04 but regardless of the answers, I say wow. a working multics instance is a serious computer archaeology achievement 00:39:21 didn't they just release the source? 00:39:46 imode: even if they did, getting it to actually run is probably nontrivial 00:40:14 the answer to that would be "it depends". apparently it runs on a simulator. 00:40:57 real hardware would be entertaining. 00:43:19 If you're running it on a simulator, I wonder if you can give it a hundred times more RAM, backing store, and CPU processing power as the historically accurate hardware could ever have. 00:47:18 [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52559&oldid=52557 * LyricLy * (+175) 01:00:28 boily: if you use multiple trello to-do lists, are they collectively your "trellon"? 01:00:52 I think I prefer trelleaux hth 01:01:30 but that's just pluralizing trello. it's not a collective noun at all! 01:41:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:43:04 oerjan: "featured" just means it has features hth <-- O KAY 02:05:35 `w 02:05:36 np-complete//NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them. 02:12:09 -!- boily has quit (Quit: AMERICAN CHICKEN). 02:21:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:24:56 -!- augur has joined. 02:29:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:37:19 * oerjan thinks mroman must be severely confused about dot products. 02:37:43 `grWp feature 02:37:45 ​ä:Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ degenerate:Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard. \ eyebrow:Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. \ intercal:INTERCAL has excelle 02:38:06 `2 grWp feature 02:38:08 2/3:ent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ java:Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures. \ lua:Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua. \ umlaut:Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", a 02:38:55 `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. 02:38:57 Learned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. 02:39:25 `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate. 02:39:27 Relearned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate. 02:40:12 `n 02:40:13 3/3:n important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable. 02:41:18 `? accusative 02:41:19 accusative? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 02:42:35 `le/rn Accusative//Only evil people use the accusative. 02:42:36 Learned 'accusative': Only evil people use the accusative. 02:55:17 -!- sheshiresat has joined. 03:00:09 * oerjan spots a lewis sarroll fan 03:02:31 -!- jaboja has joined. 03:09:50 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:17:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:22:04 And, don't have, uh, ByteString. <-- Integers have large bytearrays inside, i think you should be able to use that. 03:24:18 (for getting an arbitrary byte sequence to jump to) 03:26:39 . o O ( how come shachaf isn't here, he's always here. ) 03:28:22 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 03:29:28 not sure if executability would be a problem. 03:29:43 (page) 03:31:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:35:55 oerjan: If you can jump into the right offset. 03:36:34 String literals are encoded in UTF-8 too, but I'm not sure how to use that. 03:36:55 And they're in read-only memory, so it should be easier. 03:37:44 you'd have to get to them before they're evaluated into proper lists, i guess.. 03:38:42 so, unsafeCoerce a thunk into something that _won't_ get evaluated... 03:42:39 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 03:44:43 I think I have finish making MIXPC by now (except the documentation is not finished being written yet). There is no floating-point, although it does include XOR, JAE, JAO, JXE, JXO. I also fixed various mistakes from before, and added a few new things such as the ability to hide the register display (which can be used for games with hidden information, but also makes it execute much faster). 03:45:08 I do not have it available right now but perhaps in next week I can make this program available for download 03:46:24 -!- imode has joined. 03:54:13 (The other thing it doesn't have is paper tape) 04:05:24 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:07:20 -!- Slereah__ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:07:35 -!- sheshiresat has quit (Quit: broke something). 04:08:27 -!- augur has joined. 04:23:39 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:25:31 I have implemented J. Stein's "binary gcd algorithm" (described in The Art of Computer Programming, 4.5.2, Algorithm B) in MMIX. I have then afterward looked at the official version and found I did it differently. I did it like this: http://sprunge.us/UaOS 04:26:20 Here is the official version: http://mmix.cs.hm.edu/supplement/4.5.2/euclidb.mms 04:41:28 (I have tested my program and it does work OK) 05:02:55 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:04:04 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:14:20 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 05:17:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:40:46 -!- PattuX has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:51:20 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:14:07 but have you proven it? 06:26:42 -!- erkin has joined. 06:38:20 `olist 1086 06:38:23 olist 1086: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 06:38:52 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:52:43 hum, i seem to have missed one before 07:02:00 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:08:19 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:30:14 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:57:39 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 08:15:35 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:41:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:07:53 -!- jaboja has joined. 09:12:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:41:14 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:44:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:44:27 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:48:47 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 10:51:31 -!- jaboja has joined. 10:59:31 -!- Mayoi has joined. 11:03:37 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:04:37 -!- Mayoi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:04:56 -!- Mayoi has joined. 11:12:58 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:16:38 -!- jaboja has joined. 11:32:57 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:34:40 -!- Mayoi has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 11:34:44 -!- boily has joined. 11:35:00 -!- erkin has joined. 11:36:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:43:38 `w 11:43:40 tc//Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally. 11:55:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 11:56:35 -!- PattuX has joined. 12:13:40 `? tc 12:13:41 Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally. 12:13:48 `? TC 12:13:49 Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally. 12:14:02 `w turing 12:14:03 post-turing machine//A post-Turing machine is a machine from the post-Turing era. 12:18:08 `? Jafet 12:18:09 Jafet? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:19:06 what about posturing machines 12:23:05 they will shape the AI rebellion into form. 12:27:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FROZEN CHICKEN). 12:30:32 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:39:37 skynet ! 12:39:55 * sebbu ask for a chobits 12:40:19 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:53:55 -!- jaboja has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:56:45 -!- jaboja has joined. 13:09:48 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:45:43 -!- tswett has joined. 13:46:02 Here's my favorite topological separation axiom. 13:46:22 For every pair of distinct points in the space, there exists a set containing one but not the other. 13:52:44 haha 14:00:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:28:40 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:33:02 -!- Mayoi has joined. 14:33:40 -!- Mayoi has quit (Client Quit). 14:33:55 -!- tswett_ has joined. 14:36:38 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:36:57 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:39:08 -!- erkin has joined. 14:43:25 how would one formulate that in pointless topology? 14:51:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:02:48 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:58:54 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 16:01:29 -!- Cale has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:02:36 -!- Cale has joined. 16:08:19 int-e: why bother? :P 16:19:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:25:07 alercah: because this is #esoteric :P 16:25:50 but it's pointless 16:25:54 16:25:56 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:42:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:48:19 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaamilj * New user account 16:49:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:59:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:52:28 -!- xkapastel has joined. 19:42:24 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 19:49:08 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 19:50:35 -!- stellHex has joined. 19:56:26 -!- stellHex has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:03:10 -!- imode has joined. 20:04:03 <\oren\> Apparently the plural of dystopia is dystopiai 20:07:18 the plural of which is presumably dystopiaia 20:19:39 -!- augur has joined. 20:28:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:41:40 I think this falls under "know your audience": http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1966 20:45:00 -!- `^_^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:45:18 -!- `^_^v has joined. 20:50:46 -!- PattuX has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 21:10:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:01 -!- augur has joined. 21:13:36 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Company/Technology-Partners/ 21:13:58 <\oren\> scroll down to the bottom and right click the trustwave logo 21:15:20 "copying prohibited by law" 21:15:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:15:32 can I see the law. 21:15:38 -!- augur has joined. 21:17:10 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Legal-Documents/Modern-Slavery-Statement/ 21:20:03 . o O ( Hmm, I guess this law requires Javascript to work. ) 21:20:34 though tbf, without javascript, there is no such logo at the bottom 21:20:49 -!- MrBismuth has joined. 21:21:17 It is still easy enough to find it in the source anyways 21:21:25 <\oren\> "the Modern Slavery Act 2015". never expected that from Obama 21:21:39 The URL is https://sealserver.trustwave.com/seal_image.php 21:22:56 It's a curious claim anyway. 21:24:16 -!- MrBusiness has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:25:01 "... there is a locale of all surjections from natural numbers ... to real numbers .... This locale has no points, since there are no such surjections, but it contains many nontrivial open subspaces ..." https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/locale 21:25:04 What is this witchcraft. 21:28:52 It may be a "service mark", buthow, pray, does that prohibit making copies for personal entertainment? 21:29:02 pray *tell* 21:30:03 -!- ski has joined. 21:32:18 -!- g0d355__ has joined. 21:35:23 (I'd be more convinced by a DMCA claim :-P) 21:36:14 Since clearly the "intellectual property" is "protected" by "state-of-the-art technology" (namely, Javascript). 21:36:31 tswett: did you know that if ZFC is consistent, then it must have a countable model? 21:36:44 I knew that. 21:37:23 And it's a fun thing to ponder for a while, in order to resolve the apparent contradiction with the existence of uncountable sets. 21:38:04 tswett_: I learned about locales from _Topology via Logic_ by Vickers. 21:38:09 ...Well, I didn't learn that much. 21:38:22 s/apparent/seeming/ for the nitpickers among us 21:38:25 Jafet, even i knew that 21:38:54 Yep, all consistent first-order theories with countably many axioms have countable models... right? 21:39:07 I should've read that part of the book more thoroughly. 21:39:34 What's more, there's a definable function which takes any consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms, and returns a countable model of it. 21:40:04 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:40:06 `' Skolem 21:40:07 No output. 21:40:47 (second name in Löwenheim-Skolem, in case it wasn't obvious) 21:40:57 <\oren\> `' skolem 21:40:58 No output. 21:41:11 I knew I could count on this channel 21:41:35 -!- PattuX has joined. 21:41:37 I tend to be kind of a skeptic of infinite stuff, especially involving the axiom of choice. 21:42:12 So if you just say "if it's consistent, it must have a countable model", I'll think, yeah, well, the proof of that probably involves the axiom of choice and all sorts of other set-theoretic abstract nonsense. 21:42:17 Except no, it doesn't. 21:42:28 There's an *explicitly defined* countable model. 21:43:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:48:39 it makes sense when you realise that 'uncountable' just means 'can't construct a bijection to N' 21:50:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4l9UgiOLKA 21:50:53 "In general, the Löwenheim–Skolem theorem does not hold in stronger logics such as second-order logic." 21:51:18 i guess i've never understood what's supposed to be so horrible about second-order logic that it's worth putting up with all the ridiculous bullshit that comes up in first-order logic 21:52:57 -!- augur has joined. 21:54:32 It's not complete. Theories can have consequences which necessarily hold, but which aren't provable. 21:54:39 I guess there's some justification for disliking the failure of completeness in second order logic. 21:54:39 That's one disadvantage. 21:54:42 And one disadvantage is sufficient. :D 21:55:27 In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit". 21:55:38 And that may be the main disagreement. 21:56:55 So lemme go through the Henkin construction here. 21:57:02 Suppose we've got a consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms. 21:57:03 Woo. 21:57:04 It's also not true that people don't use second or higher order logics; it's just that for the foundations of set theory, first order logic is sufficient. 21:57:33 and then you can build models of higher logics in there, so everybody ought to be happy 21:58:11 I used second order logic in my master's thesis a lot 21:59:03 So, first, we "maximize" the theory. 21:59:17 If there's a statement which is consistent with the theory, but not in the theory, we add it. 21:59:26 Repeat until all such statements are exhausted. 22:00:52 dym Herbrand? *wonders* 22:01:16 Probably my fault though. 22:01:52 Next, we "populate" the theory. For each axiom of the form "there exists x such that ...", we add a constant and assert that that constant is an example of an axiom. 22:02:04 In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit". 22:02:07 well like 22:02:12 you can have countable models of zfc 22:04:02 Sure but why is that a bad thing? It's a brain teaser that helps you get the separation of meta level and logic level straight. 22:04:22 ^ 22:04:37 "Population" is not recursive; if population adds a new axiom of the form "there exists y such that ...", you don't add another constant and another axiom for that. 22:06:55 Then you maximize again, populate again, maximize again, populate again, and so on forever. 22:08:13 Now you've got a theory that has two interesting properties. 22:08:29 First, every statement consistent with the theory is an axiom of the theory. 22:09:21 Second, given any provable statement of the form "there exists x such that ...", there's an axiom giving an example of that statement. 22:11:39 And boom... 22:11:49 The set of all constants in this theory is a model of the original theory! 22:17:36 <\oren\> GENRAL JON KELLY IS NEW CHEIF OF STAFF 22:17:52 <\oren\> RIENCE PRIEBUS FIRED! 22:18:06 please don't shout 22:18:19 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:18:22 `? Jafet 22:18:23 Jafet? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:18:53 Hmm. So a locale is just the opposite of a frame... 22:19:13 In the sense that a locale is equivalent to a frame, but a morphism of locales A -> B is a morphism of frames B -> A. 22:20:30 Yes. 22:20:48 A complete Heyting algebra is also the same thing, but has yet another notion of morphism. 22:38:16 So apparently the cofinite topology on a non-finite set is not sober. 22:38:49 Hmmmm. So the cofinite topology produces a locale... the cofinite locale, I guess? 22:39:11 So what's a "concrete point" in this locale, then... 22:39:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:17 It's a collection of open sets such that... 22:40:04 -!- augur has joined. 22:40:24 If a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection... 22:41:16 As is the intersection of any two sets in the collection?... 22:41:20 Can you figure out a point-free definition of "manifold"? twh 22:41:25 s/C/c/ 22:41:43 os 22:42:20 Now wait, what's a morphism of locales A -> B. 22:42:31 It maps open sets in B to open sets in A. 22:42:55 Subsets must remain subsets. 22:43:20 Finite intersections must be preserved exactly. Arbitrary unions, too. 22:43:40 Of course, "sets" need not be sets at all. 22:43:46 The term is just a mnemonic. 22:44:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:44:30 So a "concrete point" in this locale is... 22:44:51 A collection of open sets such that if a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection... 22:45:10 ...the intersection of finitely many sets is in the collection iff all of those sets are in the collection... 22:45:23 ...and the union of any number of sets is in the collection iff at least one of those sets is in the collection. 22:46:36 Well, what if I think I can think of a concrete point in the cofinite locale on Z? Namely... the number 44. 22:46:49 So my alleged "concrete point" is the collection of all cofinite sets containing 44. 22:49:51 But wait, wait. 22:50:04 -!- GeekDude has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.8). 22:50:35 Doesn't every non-empty locale admit at least two concrete points, one of them containing all open sets and the other containing no open sets? 22:51:31 -!- GeekDude has joined. 22:52:12 ...where "non-empty" means something like "having at least two open sets"... 22:57:31 Oh, whoops. 22:57:43 No, cancel that whoops. 23:04:15 Let's talk about my nasty case of anti-realism. 23:04:34 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:04:40 I don't really believe that the word "group" really refers to a real thing. 23:04:43 Not really, anyway. 23:04:45 *cough* 23:04:58 But I do admit that there are ways of specifying a group. 23:05:18 One way to specify a group is to give a finite presentation of it. 23:05:45 Likewise, I don't consider the concept of a category to be a real concept, but I admit that there are ways of specifying categories, too. 23:05:59 You can, likewise, specify a category by giving a finite presentation of it. 23:06:11 Now, consider the category of groups. 23:06:16 I just specified a category, didn't I? 23:06:35 The phrase "the category of groups" seems like a perfectly valid specification of a category. 23:06:44 -!- MDude has joined. 23:07:34 But the category of groups isn't finitely presented. 23:07:57 Or, here's an even better example: the category of sets. 23:08:01 That's not finitely presented, either. 23:10:44 So how can I *specify* the category of groups? 23:10:53 I can just write down the definition of a group and say, "it's the category of these things". 23:11:10 But that's not very satisfying. 23:11:48 But... 23:13:32 There's a particular finite product category, the syntactic category of groups, Con(Grp). 23:14:07 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 23:14:34 A group is just a functor Con(Grp) -> Set which preserves finite products. 23:14:53 And Con(Grp) is a finitely generated finite product category, of course. 23:18:09 The category of groups is just the category of natural transformations of these functors. 23:21:11 If I want to make a trivial Windows 3.1 executable, is Open Watcom my best option? 23:22:57 I sure don't know how to make Windows 3.1 executables. 23:23:02 doesn't djgpp work with 3.1? 23:23:50 yeah it supports 3.1 23:24:00 As a target or host? 23:24:06 both. 23:24:23 As far as I know, DJGPP proper is just DOS. 23:24:25 I need to make a substitute shell for PROGMAN.EXE 23:24:28 http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq3_6.html 23:24:41 "Currently, you can only run DJGPP programs under Windows as DOS apps (i.e. inside the DOS Box). If you need to write true Windows apps, you will have to use auxiliary tools or another compiler." 23:24:57 Because Internet Archive's Win3.1 emulator replaces PROGMAN.EXE in SYSTEM.INI with a target program 23:25:24 what's your end goal? 23:28:13 Get Worlds Chat Gold running in the browser. 23:28:40 Worlds Chat Gold's main executable requires an argument... 23:29:05 There's a copy of Borland C++ 4.5 on one of those CDs you used to get glued on the covers of PC magazines in the 90s. 23:29:07 and you can't edit the system.ini? 23:29:27 imode, I can edit system.ini, in fact that's what the files in IA's copy of Win3.1 does. 23:29:49 so if it replaces PROGMAN.EXE with .exe, why not just append the command line arguments. 23:29:55 But I think Windows 3.1 doesn't like it if you try to give anything other than a single executable for shell= 23:30:02 I tried 23:30:12 how about a batch file. 23:30:15 Tried that 23:30:20 and the result? 23:30:25 It didn't work 23:30:37 I think it complained about PROGMAN.EXE, but don't fully remember 23:30:47 any specific error messages? 23:30:55 No 23:31:27 I'm almost dead sure that there's more than a dozen programs up on the archive that take command line parameters. 23:31:36 Can you use an existing program that's meant to be used as a win3.1 shell? 23:33:21 Sgeo: dare I ask, have you tried putting quotations around the whole string? 23:34:59 http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23913 23:35:07 I'm gonna go hang with myself in #tswett a bit and continue talking about category theory. 23:35:42 "I suppose you can do this with a custom SYSTEM.INI. Rather than having it open the default PROGMAN.EXE (Program Manager) using the "shell=" setting, you could have it open the game instead, effectively replacing the Program Manager shell with the game, turning Win3.1 into a single-task system which will close as soon as its shell (the game) terminates. " 23:35:50 This is exactly what following IA standards does. 23:37:38 the only way I could help you is if I had a win3.1 install. 23:37:57 https://cors.archive.org/cors/emularity_win31/win31.zip 23:38:00 That + DOSBox 23:38:17 I don't think IA necessarily wants people downloading and using that directly 23:38:17 cool, and the program you want on it? 23:39:01 http://jedi.servequake.com/files1/Worlds/worldsgold.zip 23:39:15 I will try my darndest. 23:39:20 because I have nothing to do while this code compiles. 23:41:34 ah. so dosbox calls runapp with a command, which sets the ini option and then runs windows, which runs the shell. 23:41:45 cool beans. 23:46:36 Sgeo: so is D: supposed to be where my windows install is? and C: is where the app is? 23:46:44 yes 23:47:28 k, well I managed to launch the setup. 23:48:44 The command to start the program once it's installed is C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.EXE C:\WORLDS\CHAT\SHELGOLD.PAC 23:48:55 I think from C:\WORLDS\CHAT\ directory 23:49:50 yep. one sec. 23:49:55 remind me how to release my mouse cursor from the window. 23:50:18 In DOSBOX you push middle button to grab/ungrab mouse 23:50:29 thank you. 23:53:53 OVSF3: Error opening C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.BAL/START.inf 23:54:53 looks like a mistargeted directory. 23:56:52 "OVSF3: Error opening" is in ACER522.EXE 23:57:00 yyup. 23:57:26 Trying to compile my program, it says undefined symbol execl_