< 1499385712 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through. < 1499385756 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you may be able to browse the wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ < 1499386049 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499386050 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I need some sort of a way to notice when (if) it comes back up, so I know how to undo this. < 1499386336 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499388095 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for me < 1499390425 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499390546 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499391286 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499391435 0 :tswe_tt!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just occurred to me that I can probably kill Warrigal. < 1499391543 0 :tswe_tt!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Warrigal isn't a registered nickname. < 1499391548 0 :tswe_tt!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do this, however... < 1499391549 0 :tswe_tt!?@? NICK :tswett < 1499391615 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswarrigello_tt. < 1499391622 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, MWAH AH AH AH AH. < 1499391630 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :firestarter. I *love* that artifact. < 1499391654 0 :Remavas-Hex!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1499391757 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :which game? < 1499391793 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499391928 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499391987 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellorcah. DCSS! < 1499392001 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything explodes everywhere! ludicrous flaming gibs! < 1499392010 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!!! < 1499393000 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499394147 0 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499394181 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: HYPOTHETIC CHICKEN < 1499394315 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499394419 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1499394723 0 :Warriga_l!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1499394796 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski: whoa whoa whoa < 1499394808 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1499394894 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello shachaf < 1499394904 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499394910 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :how'z jamz < 1499394917 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :long time no ski < 1499395034 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm i'm rather sleepy. about to head for bed < 1499395046 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time ski < 1499395047 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for ski is Fri Jul 7 03:37:26 2017 < 1499395051 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgtm < 1499395060 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :say again ? < 1499395060 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'niski < 1499395424 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2602:306:c58e:4fd8:f1be:45d5:2d2:1f4c JOIN :#esoteric < 1499395515 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bckw is more intuitive < 1499395737 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski is p. intuitive < 1499395977 0 :Warriga_l!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499396119 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1499396232 0 :Warriga_l!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1499396444 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499396497 0 :Warriga_l!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499396511 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499396593 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1499396719 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1499396735 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the wiki being hijacked? < 1499396837 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499396928 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499396945 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499397757 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's down, I believe < 1499397769 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.zem.fi/ is a mirror < 1499397780 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure why it's down, though < 1499397829 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting cert errors when trying to connect to it. < 1499397854 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :annnd it's back up. < 1499397884 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've put up a local, read-only copy. < 1499397908 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:01 I set up the read-only backup copy, with two caveats. Firstly, I still hadn't changed the TTLs, so it will take up to a day for the DNS change to propagate. Secondly, the TLS certificate on it has expired, and I can't letsencrypt a new one until the DNS changes go through. < 1499397923 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence the certificate issues. < 1499397941 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1499397979 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The VPS it normally runs on is being unresponsive.) < 1499398061 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.reddit.com/r/CloudAtCost/comments/6llch0/all_servers_down_panelcloudatcostcom_not_available/ < 1499398282 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499398400 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this looks like a scam.... < 1499398475 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's really nothing new about that, but we've been coasting by with what we've got. < 1499398508 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499398511 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing new about it looking like a scam? < 1499398513 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :coastatcost < 1499398521 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also I don't own the VPS, I just run the wiki on it. So I don't e.g. have access to that control panel, even if it was working.) < 1499398602 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the positive side, I managed to renew the certificate (the temporary DNS changes had propagated to whatever letsencrypt used for the domain validation), so if you're getting the non-broken address, https://esolangs.org/ should be working again. < 1499398810 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd give CaC reasonable chances of still coming back from the dead. It was down for a few days a while back as well, but reappeared. < 1499398952 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :has it clawed its way back from the dead before < 1499398955 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :clawedatcost < 1499399363 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be a bit questionable, considering that all-of-a-sudden $9 service charge seems like *exactly* the sort of thing you do when your business model has failed utterly. < 1499399382 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with reports that people have had trouble cancelling service. < 1499399421 0 :_keemyb_!keemyb@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-bjhhoiefbbfybcvi QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1499399490 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was their original plan for making money? < 1499399535 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden QUIT :Excess Flood < 1499399565 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Charge people a bunch of money and then turn off the service after a while? < 1499399566 0 :keemyb!keemyb@gateway/shell/panicbnc/x-hdggsbfrxrvgrotl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499399574 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden JOIN :#esoteric < 1499399577 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or scam them with a monthly fee that you add on without telling them. < 1499399592 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unclear. < 1499399645 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I understand it, they're corporationally part of something that does make money, or at least in partnership with. < 1499399658 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ventures.fibernetics.ca/cloud-at-cost/ < 1499399660 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing. < 1499399666 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ah, so it's like most of Alphabet? < 1499399679 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might've assumed they could be able to get enough word of mouth that more regular-cost-structure services could take off later? < 1499399687 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if their business model can be understood in isolation, but I also don't know how it would make sense in conjunction with Fibernetics either. < 1499399788 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It began as part of an internal side project aimed at rekindling the entrepreneurial spirit within an established 200-employee tech company. Less than a year later, Cloud at Cost – a hosting service with a $35 one-time fee and no monthly bill – has raked in $1 million without any marketing, and injected fresh energy into Fibernetics, --" < 1499399793 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://news.communitech.ca/columns/cloud-at-cost-injects-fibernetics-with-startup-energy < 1499399816 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was written when the "no monthly bill" part was more true. < 1499399870 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe their business model should be not to allow anyone in Europe to use their services. < 1499399938 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The 11,000-square-foot facility boasts a data centre filled with servers and related equipment Fibernetics was able to acquire at deep discounts, and a rooftop solar array that generates more power than the operation uses. The servers access the same network upon which Fibernetics’ Internet and phone business is based. -- “That really gave us the unfair advantage to go ahead against other [cloud] < 1499399944 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :companies that have to pay for space and power and Internet and all those things.”" < 1499400118 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't mind running the thing on something more reasonable, but that would involve paying money, and I've already gotten into discussions re fronting the bill for the domain. VPSes tend to be about an order of magnitude more expensive than domains. < 1499400208 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that said, it's entirely possible that all that's going on is they've had issues and the entire side project is a very low priority. < 1499400311 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhoo, time to go sweat^W sleep. < 1499400316 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's 27 degrees indoors.) < 1499400560 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499401780 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2602:306:c58e:4fd8:f1be:45d5:2d2:1f4c QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1499402566 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1499403196 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much data does it use? < 1499403254 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can currently volunteer to host it, maybe once I get a server into a colo somwhere < 1499403288 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoolootwo: with MediaWiki the problem is mostly CPU power, not bandwidth < 1499403294 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much more CPU-hungry than you might expect < 1499403303 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't realize that < 1499403355 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it use so much? < 1499403391 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that it's fairly badly written, and in PHP at that (which is not the most optimized language) < 1499403485 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they should switch to Hack. < 1499404870 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1499404871 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :has there ever been any practical two dimensional language? < 1499404871 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499404887 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or N-dimensional where N > 1 < 1499404908 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Practical or merely not intended to be esoteric? < 1499404921 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, both I suppose. < 1499404927 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Epigram 2 was going to have 2-dimensional syntax. < 1499404935 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure whether that really counts. < 1499404958 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :2D syntax huh? do you have some examples of it? < 1499404963 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram_(programming_language) < 1499404974 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe even Epigram 1 had it? < 1499405008 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow. so it actually has diagrams.. < 1499405032 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course there's http://www.eelis.net/C++/analogliterals.xhtml < 1499405043 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah. of course. < 1499405178 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just been wondering if there's any use for a language with syntax/a computational model that can be extended to multiple dimensions. < 1499405195 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1499405199 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :excel comes to mind. as does the TIS-100. < 1499405211 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both good examples. < 1499405223 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those only really showcase two dimensions. < 1499405280 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :something that springs to mind regarding 3D would be snapmap. < 1499405287 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the recent Doom 2016.) < 1499405431 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you count cellular automata as programming languages? < 1499405444 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, but that's a little easy. < 1499405457 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't easy answers better than hard answers? < 1499405470 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any popular 3D cellular automata? < 1499405470 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but often easy answers don't give way to deeper thought. :P < 1499405481 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: Are there "automata" which are continuous? < 1499405486 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from weird von-neumann-esq. CAs, not sure. < 1499405491 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, smoothlife. < 1499405494 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are ones that have continuous cell states rather than a set number of colors. < 1499405500 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what about continuous cell boundaries? < 1499405512 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. a function or something rather than discrete cells. < 1499405513 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's another interesting question: code reuse, what happens in "space"? < 1499405533 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking that there's nothing about Hashlife that particularly depends on discreteness. < 1499405539 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499405548 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in fact it's almost more suitable to continuous spaces. < 1499405560 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.. < 1499405581 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you could use hashlife on smoothlife. < 1499405595 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually Excel is more like 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional, because it supports ranges spanning through worksheets, where the order of worksheets matter. < 1499405614 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I was curious if it supported that. < 1499405636 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Smoothlife is not what I thought. < 1499405637 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's much more support for 2 dimensional stuff than for 3 dimensions, such as specific functions and operators, but still. < 1499405643 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens to code reuse in higher-dimensional environments? < 1499405664 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does our universe, as far as we know, lend itself to Hashlife-style simulation? < 1499405691 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The speed of light suggests that it might. < 1499405713 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But quantum effects might not be compatible with locality. < 1499405756 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if so, they're incompatible in a very particular way. Maybe it's a way that can still be simulated efficiently? < 1499406222 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be REALLY interesting is an N-dimensional language adapted to an arbitrary vector space. < 1499406236 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :control flow becomes transformations. < 1499406280 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1499406322 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:898:5233:6606:b873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: That's... pretty much a quantum computer < 1499406328 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1499406341 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:898:5233:6606:b873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite an arbitrary vector space there, but arbitrary dimension anyway < 1499406633 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my problem with languages with a spatial syntax is that it's hard to include/replicate code. < 1499406660 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only imagine the horrors of constructing CA-based programs. incredibly fragile things. < 1499406851 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499406937 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructing physics-based programs is also pretty tricky. < 1499407260 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499407271 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 QUIT :Client Quit < 1499407541 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could believe that you could turn any N-dimensional program into a traditional, textual program by the inclusion of coordinates/bounding boxes. < 1499407557 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x, y, z, ), ... < 1499407584 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could design the program and serialize it. < 1499407945 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: just store it as a quadtree like hashlife hth < 1499407962 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayyyy. < 1499410041 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2602:306:c58e:4fd8:e0c6:f2e1:82e7:dfc4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499410900 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1499412149 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@2602:306:c58e:4fd8:e0c6:f2e1:82e7:dfc4 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1499412354 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@fr1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499412355 0 :Deewiant_!~deewiant@fr1.ut.deewiant.iki.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1499412365 0 :vifino!~vifino@tty.sh QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499412420 0 :vifino!~vifino@tty.sh JOIN :#esoteric < 1499412681 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499412919 0 :betaveros_!~betaveros@mint-square.mit.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499413009 0 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499413063 0 :betaveros!~betaveros@mint-square.mit.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1499413115 0 :jjthrash!~jjthrash@util.brownbirdlabs.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499413145 0 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499413186 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1499413416 0 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1499413719 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1499415523 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@134.58.253.56 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499415944 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still wonders how code re-use would work in a higher dimensional language. < 1499416046 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with traditional programs you can just bolt multiple code segments together and give a couple entry points. < 1499416075 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gluing together segments of a plane isn't as.. easy. you need to have some sort of isolation. < 1499416269 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't a similar thing true in a one-dimensional language like bf as well? < 1499416341 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A traditional program is something like a graph, where you can make an edge pointing to any name. < 1499416361 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could have a 2D language that requires the graph to be planar. < 1499416373 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd end up with something like wireworld. < 1499416388 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something like an N-dimensional excel. < 1499416423 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :where regions of space can be occupied by code with its own instruction pointer. < 1499416503 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing a "robust-first computing" video or something where the guy designed a filter out of small probabilistic particles... lemme get that. < 1499416849 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=helScS3coAE quite long, but an interesting take on "programming" with a virtual environment with inputs and outputs. < 1499416860 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499416893 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499416926 0 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-178-012-157-114.178.012.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1499417018 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-188-109-011-205.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499417023 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-188-109-011-205.188.109.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499417185 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1499417892 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499418168 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499418854 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1499418934 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1499419267 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499420347 0 :jjthrash!~jjthrash@util.brownbirdlabs.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1499421595 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1499422897 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Still no worky. < 1499423213 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Backup wiki at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah < 1499423242 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | vampiric manatees | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah < 1499423304 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :Backup wiki (readonly) at http://esolangs.zem.fi/ | mermaid umpires | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah < 1499423763 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "In the European Union and Russia, Google Cloud Platform services can be used only for business purposes." Hey, maybe Brexit means I can use it. < 1499423776 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1499424448 0 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499424457 0 :zemhill!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1499425065 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1499425660 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499425692 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1499425808 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speedrunning stuff: Summer Games Done Quick crew has already started to upload videos of the first games of SGDQ to youtube. After SGDQ, there are more speedrunning marathons this summer: < 1499425881 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :handheld heroes (gameboy games, on in second half of twitch.tv/speedgaming , no physical conference) starting 2017-07-15, then ESA (European Speedrun Assembly) in july in Vaxjö, then I hear there's something in august in america. < 1499425884 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There have been bootleg copies of the SGDQ runs in YouTube for a while already. ;) < 1499425898 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sure, encodes of the twitch videos < 1499425915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these are the first official encodes (I'm not sure if they're the final official encodes) < 1499425958 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that thing which does them automatically, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfqRJEB9cDt4j_RqRXg0ABA/videos < 1499425974 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH, watching them like that was preferrable to watching Twitch in real time, it was freezing for seconds all the time. At least when I tried. < 1499426044 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :twitch freezes less if you load the player.twitch.tv frame directly. the horrible part of twitch is the chat and other wobsite elements that often freeze your browser completely. < 1499426075 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The official ones are in a playlist that has "Raw Stream" in the name... though on the other hand, that's the case for AGDQ 2017 as well. < 1499426110 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in some older years, the final official encodes were on archive.org < 1499427101 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1499427234 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499427402 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYUL < 1499427403 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYUL 071029Z 23009KT 180V250 3/4SM R24R/P6000FT/U R24L/P6000FT/U +TSRA BKN009 OVC018CB 21/19 A2979 RMK SF5CB3 PRESRR SLP090 DENSITY ALT 1000FT < 1499427425 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no TSRA here. it's gonna rain. < 1499427777 0 :Remavas-Hex!?@? NICK :Remavas < 1499427812 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-146-188-96.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1499427898 0 :Melvar`!?@? NICK :Melvar < 1499428963 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1499430587 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: MASTER CHICKEN < 1499430867 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499430875 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wiki's back! < 1499430877 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 QUIT :Changing host < 1499430877 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@unaffiliated/--kerbal--/x-6354342 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499430877 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@unaffiliated/--kerbal--/x-6354342 QUIT :Changing host < 1499430877 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499430918 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you made a backup mirror! < 1499431949 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499432236 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1499432465 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really back. < 1499432470 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you see is the copy. < 1499432497 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You should get a sad message if you try to edit something.) < 1499432522 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1499432739 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1499434019 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499434028 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so this is just the mirror? < 1499434040 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a read-only mirror < 1499434121 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strangely, typing in esolangs.org now gets me nowhere. I used to get the wiki. < 1499434129 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(even if it was the read-only version) < 1499434140 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can access the mirror just fine < 1499434309 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "mermaid umpires" mean? < 1499434344 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also been "vampiric manatees" and something involving a hypercantata or something like that < 1499434629 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerbal: dunno, after the Rat Samurai of the Kamigawa block, I'm not so easy to surprise by unusual race role combinations. < 1499435365 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kerbal__: It will take a while for the DNS change (to make esolangs.org point at the copy) to reach everywhere, and until it does, you might get different results from the caches of different nameservers. < 1499435388 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1499435677 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499435784 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone ever created an esoteric markup language? < 1499436452 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tex < 1499437297 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides that < 1499437915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I returned to the airport by train, at one point I was sitting in a small compartment of 8 seats with 4 other people, all 4 having a laptop in front of them < 1499437927 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently everyone works on a laptop during traveling there < 1499438228 0 :callforjudgement!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499438232 0 :callforjudgement!?@? NICK :ais523 < 1499438826 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1499438838 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1499438850 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was something I wanted to ask you about M:tG rules < 1499438870 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@134.58.253.56 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499439990 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The redirect to the wiki now works < 1499440000 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, at least < 1499440102 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In M:tG rules, basically I want to know how linked abilities work when a permanent gets them indirectly. Take the abilities of Synod Sanctum or Muse Vessel for example. Another permanent could get the abils indirectly through copy effects including cytoshape, or Quicksilver Elemental effects. < 1499440154 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I use the first ability to exile an object, then something happens with the indirect (possibly multiply indirect way) how this permanent gets its abilities, when can I still use the second ability to access the exiled card(s)? < 1499440277 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, if you get the ability through Experiment Kraj, what happens if (a) the original Synod Sanctum loses all +1/+1 counters then regains them (b) the Sanctum phases out then phases in (c) the Sanctum dies then another Sanctum etb and gets a counter, < 1499440346 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(d) the Sanctum gets Turned to Frog then back, (e) the Kraj gets Turned to Frog then back, ... and lots of other possibilities. < 1499440395 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simliarly, if a bear gets the Sanctum abilities through Cytoshape, the shape times out then in a later turn I Cytoshape the bear back to the same Sanctum, can I access the cards? < 1499440440 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to know a general rule of when linked abilities can access the exiled card or similar when a permanent gets linked abilities indirectly. < 1499440959 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is War (the card game) guaranteed to halt? < 1499441003 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the cards given to each player at the start are non-random < 1499441050 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, this M:tG thing got me thinking about the M:tG TC proof, which made me wonder about this) < 1499441681 0 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-084-062-101-252.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1499441795 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-178-012-157-114.178.012.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499442168 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: still here? < 1499442546 0 :Melvar`!?@? NICK :Melvar < 1499442588 0 :danieljabailey!?@? NICK :DaNiElJaBaIlEy < 1499442595 0 :DaNiElJaBaIlEy!?@? NICK :danieljabailey < 1499442659 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, just don't really have anything to say < 1499442663 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not an expert in M:tG rules < 1499442678 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1499443169 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that a war game could be abstracted to a set of queues where every queue stores instructions < 1499443177 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then who's the M:tG rules expert on this channel then? < 1499443189 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it zzo38? < 1499443215 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: every queue stores a set of integers < 1499443234 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are the inputs of the only instruction in War < 1499443389 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this instruction basically takes a set of integers, where the position of the integer in the set corresponds to the queue (so the 1st integer is for the first queue) and writes the set to the queue corresponding to the largest integer in the set. < 1499443394 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1499443453 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499443469 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, to make War deterministic you must specify the order in which the set is written to the queue, which is not specified by some War rules I have seen < 1499443596 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming a 2 player game, you get two stacks < 1499443604 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :correction: queues < 1499443661 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, then, that War is a OISC < 1499443673 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with two stacks < 1499443713 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, then, will War (or a precisely defined variant thereof) halt? < 1499443730 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean queues above) < 1499443744 0 :augur!~augur@2602:304:cdac:e260:d04e:21a9:8b45:c149 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1499443756 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where War is defined broadly as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_(card_game) < 1499444311 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,4] vs [3,2]; [4,1,3] vs [2]; [1,3] vs [4,2]; [3,1,4] vs [2]; [1,4] vs [3,2]; repeat < 1499444322 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly this uses a fairly asymmetrical gather order (always player 1 above player 2) < 1499444766 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Could you explain your queue notation? I'm a bit confused (my apologies) < 1499444775 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kerbal__: head of the queue is at the left end < 1499444835 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 3 won the battle against 1, why didn't the second player get 1? < 1499444922 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are 3 and 1 not being compared? < 1499445022 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kerbal__: ais523 is a mathematician, not a card gamer, so lower number wins in his notation. < 1499445074 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok. That threw me off < 1499445117 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it appears that, for some starting values, War will never halt < 1499445123 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499445192 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499445330 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is War TC? < 1499445385 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, finite storage < 1499445418 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1499445482 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about a variant in which "war" events create an extra card, namely the lowest value in the facedown cards? < 1499445587 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-084-062-101-252.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1499445621 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,3,5,7] vs [1,2,3,8]; 2 is generated and given to the winner < 1499445646 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huhwhat < 1499445662 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, a way of getting around finite storage\ < 1499445667 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by generating cards < 1499445678 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is starting to get into xigxag territory, now < 1499445683 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. probably not TC but it's going to be a pain to prove < 1499445763 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, we need a consistent notation first... < 1499445776 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do small or large numbers win? < 1499445790 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :small in my notation < 1499445791 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: like the Last ReSort? < 1499445807 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: nah, I think Last ReSort probably /is/ TC but it's going to be a pain to prove < 1499445813 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be wrong, though < 1499445819 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in either case < 1499445829 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, xigxag was that language that's like a tag system with two symbols or something < 1499445924 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC? < 1499445929 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :xigxag has two symbols, < and >, but it isn't like a tag system < 1499445949 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each step, a < is replaced by a copy of everything to its left, a > is replaced by a copy of everything to its right < 1499445959 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been proven that all nontrivial programs grow exponentially but that really doesn't state anything about TCness < 1499446514 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1499446582 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1499447047 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have a universal generator g in the sense that every string of s occurs as a substring in some successor of g? < 1499447100 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, interesting question < 1499447103 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that's been explored yet < 1499447615 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1499447649 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a call to system() is O(n) in the size of the calling process!!!!!! < 1499447653 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1499447730 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: you're on a UNIX-alike with a broken vfork? < 1499447796 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: yes, in some large server programs forking can be a bottleneck, in which case you can prefork (and optionally exec) a separate small process whose job is to fork children. < 1499447812 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preforking has other advantages too, such as not having to worry about strange process state getting copied and accidentally causing hard to debug problems in the descendants. < 1499447895 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: we are basically doeing that now < 1499447925 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except the "process whose job it is to fork children" is just a shell script) < 1499447952 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: seriously, though, what OS are you on? < 1499447957 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux < 1499447985 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux has a bunch of forking optimizations, and doesn't need to copy the entire state of the program on a fork < 1499448005 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vfork is just seen as a clue to the scheduler there, rather than to the MMU, because a regular fork is already efficient enough < 1499448012 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I wonder if it nonetheless has to copy the page table? < 1499448023 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's way smaller than memory generally, but it's still O(n) in the size of the process, just about < 1499448029 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have expected the constant factor to be larger though < 1499448039 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and this process has a ton of mmapped files < 1499448078 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was calling system() several times a second < 1499448153 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: was it at least calling system for something useful that's hard to replace, or for something silly like system("clear")? < 1499448176 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling system() several times a second tends to be slow regardless of who's calling it < 1499448206 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sprintf(s,"rm %s",filename);system(s); < 1499448228 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yeeeak < 1499448259 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind what will heppen if filename contains a space < 1499448296 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1499448305 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499448327 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily this code never runs in prod < 1499448333 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only when testing < 1499448357 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so glibc's system uses this to fork on linux: # define FORK() INLINE_SYSCALL (clone, 3, CLONE_PARENT_SETTID | SIGCHLD, 0, &pid) ... CLONE_VM is not set so yes it'll make a, more or less, copy of the page tables. < 1499448395 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( hmm, that's from 2012. ) < 1499448403 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes find a current version < 1499448454 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does exec() interact with threads? < 1499448510 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm more curious about vfork and threads < 1499448675 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, current glibc still does the same thing. < 1499448696 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I'd assume that on Linux at least, vfork just prevents other threads running until the exec/_exit < 1499448717 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because on Linux, the only difference between fork and vfork is in how the scheduler reacts < 1499448725 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD might be more interesting, though < 1499448731 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I assume it does threads quite differently from Linux < 1499448889 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, posix_spawn seems to use vfork (CLONE_VM | CLONE_VFORK); but they go out of their way to set up a new stack. < 1499448901 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1499448961 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on linux; the generic posix implementation is based around fork()) < 1499449369 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :three steps further into the rabbit hole... is system() guaranteed to run atfork handlers? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112517 says no. < 1499449402 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't expect that guarantee to exist < 1499449442 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd expect system to be implemented via posix_spawn nowadays < 1499449449 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which has no reason to call an atfork < 1499449470 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ah! atfork. good idea. < 1499449579 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point I was wondering how in a multithread program when I fork-exec and want to have the children inherit a specific file handle, how I could make sure another thread doesn't system (or popen) at just the wrong time and inherit that handle. < 1499449589 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was on window, so fork wasn't actually involved sadly. < 1499449640 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The implementation of popen itself makes sure the handles it creatures aren't inherited by other calls to popen by locking on a mutex, but that mutex isn't in the documented API so you can't reference them from user code. < 1499449739 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :An atfork handle would be ideal for locking on a similar mutex you create. < 1499449749 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that wouldn't work < 1499449760 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to lock the mutex before you fork and unlock after you fork < 1499449765 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an atfork handler can't do that < 1499449774 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or can it? < 1499449923 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The expected usage is that the prepare handler acquires all mutex locks and the other two fork handlers release them." http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/pthread_atfork.html < 1499450015 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ) < 1499450059 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, lazy localization? < 1499450084 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1499450468 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499450641 0 :hppavilion[0]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499450773 0 :__kerbal__!a2866206@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.134.98.6 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1499450782 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499451185 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1499451967 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1499452483 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I HATE LAZY TRANSLATORS < 1499452494 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :REEEEEE < 1499452554 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote lazy < 1499452554 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :malig says: quantum mechanics actually strikes me as less wierd than lazy evaluation sometimes. at least it disallows time travel < 1499452605 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: do you hit people? < 1499452607 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: madam president, i thank the president-in-office for that answer, president-in-office. we would welcome coordination of the council's willingness to consider aid for research and innovation, which is based on an arsenal of sanctions which will have considerable social and environmental jobs; encouraging public and private research expenditure is continuing or picking up in the forthcoming session, which were not kept to. < 1499452811 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but there's one way he can hit people < 1499452946 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1499452997 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi wob_jonas < 1499453067 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1499453079 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a #include_if_exists < 1499453094 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: we have that these days in C < 1499453101 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not spelled that way, but still < 1499453113 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef __has_include or some such thing, I don't recall < 1499453122 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most C compilers have it by now < 1499453140 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're even putting it to the c++ standard, though I don't really like that idea < 1499453152 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh hooray! < 1499453181 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: *into < 1499453184 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah this is just to have a "defines_for_testing.h" folder < 1499453199 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly in < 1499453204 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will exist when I want to change some numbers for testing < 1499453215 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric : WTF that's not something I expected to hear: a game where they play the US version because the japanese version has longer dialog (on SGDQ) ← huh, that's a new one < 1499453223 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, actually #if __has_include rather than ifdef < 1499453239 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, at least in one case I've seen french or spanish be the quickest (although I'm not sure if that game had japanese localisation) < 1499453270 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: that's GTA-3, but it's quicker for reasons other than just dialog length < 1499453277 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1499453314 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I was thinking of another game FWIW, I was thinking of Guacamelee < 1499453348 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe GTA Vice City. iirc it's because the french version censors the rampange missions, and runs in some categories use that and replay bugs (of which the PC version has a shitton of crazy ones) to get something crazy by switching langugaes < 1499453349 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to say at least one Zelda game was fastest in some european language too < 1499453361 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that could also be for non-dialogue-length version differences < 1499453380 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: I'm not surprised if something is faster in English than in Japanese, I'm only surprised if it's because of dialog length < 1499453393 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1499453453 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason why Japanese version is usually faster is the PAL vs NTSC difference, but that doesn't apply to either GTA on PC, nor to the portable console game that spawned my surprise this time < 1499453525 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, or version differences such as bugs exclusive to one language < 1499453541 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think say game boy pokemon red/blue are faster in japanese because of dialog length < 1499453544 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure < 1499453561 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some zelda games too < 1499453605 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1499453645 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, certainly… although I believe OoT is fastest in chinese (so, the iQue version) < 1499453647 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For Japanese vs. English, PAL vs NTSC shouldn't be relevant basically ever. < 1499453662 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the game never got a US release. < 1499453662 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because US is also NTSC? < 1499453665 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1499453669 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, that's confusing < 1499453685 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NTSC is the American spec that Japan also adopted. < 1499453687 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, NTSC is in japan and america, PAL in western europe < 1499453698 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's more complicated than that, but that's the main idea) < 1499453717 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for purposes of *most* video games, it's really a question of being 50 or 60 Hz. < 1499453748 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :With region coding being relevant for some consoles, but that doesn't really effect the performance of the game. < 1499453774 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the 2600 was the one console where SECAM versions could justifiably be written differently than PAL? < 1499453784 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they have different display resolution, making it even harder to port games < 1499453800 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAL and NTSC have different resolution that is < 1499453808 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2600 had a SECAM version? < 1499453809 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1499453812 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep! < 1499453822 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the 2600 is before my time < 1499453833 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though many PAL releases just used the NTSC resolution and let there be a bunch of black pixels. < 1499453848 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: on what console? < 1499453858 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NES, particularly. < 1499453864 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1499453878 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, rather a *lot* of consoles did the same thing for PAL ports of NTSC games. < 1499453919 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially for ones that'd run an NTSC ROM perfectly fine on PAL hardware, just slower. < 1499453949 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :These weren't exactly great PAL ports, but let's be real, a lot of companies just didn't give a shit. < 1499453997 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SECAM 2600 was actually kinda hilarious. < 1499454005 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had an 8 color pallete. < 1499454009 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*palette < 1499454014 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1499454039 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that make it a much worse console than the 2600 then? < 1499454047 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1499454125 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. The reason is they never produced a SECAM TIA chip at all. < 1499454137 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1499454142 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would it work then? < 1499454156 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just used a quick hack on the PAL TIA chip's luminance output to output color signals based on the luma value. < 1499454168 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And *just* output the PAL luma signal with that hack color signal. < 1499454185 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the reason they didn't bother, is the market size didn't merit it. < 1499454197 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because at the time the SECAM market they thought possible was *just* France. < 1499454208 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(selling to the Soviet Union, in the early 80s? LOL.) < 1499454212 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I can understand < 1499454212 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION . o O ( PAL is used in western europe and australia… although Eurovision would have you believe that australia is part of europe, so…) < 1499454249 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also fun, apparently France didn't really get custom ROMs to deal with that. < 1499454273 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, the B&W switch was overloaded somewhat. < 1499454285 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? PAL < 1499454298 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAL releases were expected to output luma-only when it was set to black and white. < 1499454306 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And French 2600s had an always-on black and white switch. < 1499454416 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :were there any flagship games that did get custom ROM? < 1499454426 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1499454536 0 :bit_lySLH2uSZHed!~deepbook@198.144.116.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499454588 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfft, and some of the early SECAM 2600s were made SECAM with just some wires added on the board. < 1499454606 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And presumably a local RF modulator. < 1499454675 0 :bit_lySLH2uSZHed!~deepbook@198.144.116.187 PART #esoteric : < 1499456632 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : hmm, is there even a simple proof that iterated McCulloch's second machine isn't TC? <-- i never finished my analysis, it got complicated and i'd have to write a constraint solving program, but my _hunch_ is that the resulting "register machine" is too simple to be TC. < 1499456661 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok < 1499456686 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or put differently, it's not that simple, because it devolves into a register machine thing with ~6 registers. < 1499456708 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer registers? < 1499456726 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural numbers, they correspond to lengths of certain substrings. < 1499456734 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1499456770 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to stream a recording to a DVD without needing to store it in RAM or a disk file? < 1499456772 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather "number of subblocks" of certain substrings, i guess. < 1499456884 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: um, where'd you put stuff if not in the ram? < 1499456910 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the DVD < 1499456953 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The part that is currently recording may be stored in a buffer in RAM, but after that it shouldn't store everything and only a small part, to not take up too much RAM. < 1499457029 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and you want this with an ordinary DVD burner drive hardware, or custom drive? < 1499457066 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the ordinary DVD hardware < 1499457425 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499457522 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: So you'd e.g. permit like a 2 meg buffer or some such, but that's about it? < 1499457538 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 meg would be very small < 1499457541 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's possible, but dunno how easy it'd be to do. < 1499457560 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, something like that. < 1499457564 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can barely even fit a single frame of raw video in that < 1499457600 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also nearly 2 seconds of output to a DVD burner at 1x speed. < 1499457601 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want lots more memory for compressing video < 1499457617 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming that was the buffer from the encoder to the DVD burner. < 1499457643 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That assumes that you are recording video onto the DVD; the data being recorded is not necessarily going to be video though < 1499457659 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, do remember this is a *DVD*. < 1499457660 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, so 2 megs besides the hundreds of megs or something the video encoder itself uses? < 1499457693 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A frame of *DVD* video raw doesn't take that much. < 1499457739 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking that the data to record is not necessarily a video. < 1499457777 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ah < 1499457781 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A full frame of DVD video at 4:2:2 is less than a meg. < 1499457783 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, ah. < 1499457803 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: and are you allowed to use a format on the dvd that requires a custom decoder software to read, as long as it doesn't have too much space overhead? < 1499457863 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, as far as I'm aware the only thing preventing you from writing a DVD *streaming* like you want is software, not hardware. < 1499457875 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as the hardware's concerned it's burning bits out of a buffer. < 1499457885 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have hope that you can just read it from /dev/dvdrom or whatever even if it isn't a filesystem < 1499457902 0 :augur!~augur@67-207-118-226.static.wiline.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1499457908 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I think UDF, the common filesystem for DVDs, is actually designed to let you output it streaming. < 1499457916 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it is necessary to reduce the speed of the disc spinning either < 1499457929 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(while recording; not while reading) < 1499457947 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It should only be a function of how fast you can shove bits at the thing. < 1499457972 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ordinary dvd writing already allows you to slow down the dvd or cd rotation, and we often use that option because it might make the disk last longer < 1499457996 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always written my dvds at 4x speed even though the drive and disk could do 16x < 1499458007 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also necessary to match the speed to the disk to some extent. < 1499458014 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing will be, what if the speed of the streaming is unknown or variable? < 1499458047 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC present-day burners are able to straight-up stop mid-burn to allow their buffer to fill up. < 1499458080 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: stopping is easy. continuing is the hard part. < 1499458122 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that in order to be able to stop and continue at any time may be necessary to make it spin more slowly? < 1499458183 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe you will need some kind of mark to indicate the address?) < 1499458184 0 :augur!~augur@67-207-118-226.static.wiline.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499458207 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499458656 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is UDF design like that for use with DVD recorders that can record television shows? < 1499460036 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/a/akxyv < 1499460220 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes. < 1499460375 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1499460676 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1499460778 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.19 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1499460923 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sanyo has a trandmark ("BURN-Proof™") and a patent for doing that sort of stop/resume on CDs, I think that was reasonably widely supported. And already at least a decade old by now. < 1499460953 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499461006 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Wikipedia claims that the DVD+R(W) formats have that as a standard thing.) < 1499461084 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1499461088 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember DVD-RAM? < 1499461148 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah screencapped thru facebook for realism < 1499461149 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://snag.gy/QN8ivE.jpg < 1499461189 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do remember DVD-RAM, I think I might've gotten one disc alongside a "super multi" drive. < 1499461225 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't do the cartridge trick. < 1499461684 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/ywabaFb.gifv < 1499461979 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :APic: lol < 1499462211 0 :APic!apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :😉 < 1499462416 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did you decrease the TTL on esolangs.org? < 1499462435 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like you did. < 1499462439 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I set it to 5 minutes, yes. < 1499462477 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was inspired by such industry giants as the Google, which also uses 300 seconds. < 1499462492 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa, are you sure that's not confidential information? < 1499462501 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like "dig google.com a". < 1499462509 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hard to be confidential about that. < 1499462520 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's your TTL, but maybe my TTL is different. < 1499462531 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you're at work and you're revealing information about the internal TTL. < 1499462533 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@time fizzie < 1499462533 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Local time for fizzie is Fri Jul 7 21:22:13 2017 < 1499462536 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I couldn't remember what it was in a confidential way, so I did just that. < 1499462538 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not. < 1499462573 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about HackEgo? < 1499462577 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When's that one coming back? < 1499462609 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a good question. I don't have super recent clone of the repository. < 1499462623 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa < 1499462628 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just gone? < 1499462635 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No copy of the data or anything? < 1499462635 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried that and do not see anything about TTL. Did I do something wrong? < 1499462647 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew I should have set up a cron job to fetch the repository. < 1499462654 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Tried what, the dig command? < 1499462663 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1499462666 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably saw a line like google.com. 174 IN A 172.217.6.78 < 1499462673 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :174 is the TTL < 1499462685 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be less than 300 if you get it from a server that had it cached. < 1499462707 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK, although I get a different number (64 instead of 174 or 300) and the IP address is also different < 1499462734 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess technically I should've said something like dig @ns1.google.com google.com a < 1499462750 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one I get as a constant 300, since it's the authoritative reply. < 1499462771 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If you run the command multiple times you'll probably see that number decreasing every second. < 1499462781 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes that one works. < 1499462782 0 :sebbu2!?@? NICK :sebbu < 1499462806 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: maybe you should go work at the google hth < 1499462862 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: To answer your question, I do have one copy, it's just very old. Anyway, I'm still sort of expecting the server to be back in some form eventually, at least enough for the big G (the other big G) to pull data out of it. < 1499462883 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc_: higan < 1499462900 0 :kmc_!~keegan@ec2-52-10-77-75.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1499462936 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should have a #esoteric IRC meetup when fizzie is in CA < 1499462954 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :who all is still in california around here < 1499463024 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Presumably the big G is pulling data out of it using HTTP. < 1499463145 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was sort of speculating about the big G that has access to the control panel. Maybe they have some sort of a thing. I don't know, I'm not a CaC customer. < 1499463178 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant the non-other big G. < 1499463187 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or the other other big G. < 1499463196 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many Gs are there, and which of them are big? < 1499463240 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the gravitational constant, but that'd not so big. < 1499463263 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia also suggests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Gemini < 1499463286 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :In related news, I had done a Bad Thing about the monitoring: I had the node metrics configured using the role DNS name "esolangs.org", instead of a specific designator of the machine. < 1499463297 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I won't be notified when/if it comes back up. :/ < 1499463300 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic mistake < 1499463337 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which monitoring system was this? < 1499463357 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prometheus on this side, prometheus-node-exporter and mtail on the other side. < 1499463399 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and also nginx on the other side to do HTTPS and basic auth. < 1499463478 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That last bit is the problematic one, because I could reconfigure the other bits, but the HTTPS connection will fail because the TLS certificate will have just esolangs.org and www.esolangs.org on it.) < 1499463672 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure hope shaventions don't disappear. < 1499463694 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could reconstruct a lot of state from IRC logs. I guess this is a disadvantage of `edit < 1499463704 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be someone else here has a more fresh thing. < 1499463728 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made a clone at one point. < 1499463731 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then I deleted it. < 1499463748 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it comes back, I'll set up a periodic thing. < 1499463780 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg log suggests the one I have in ~/tmp/hackego is from 2013, which was a little while ago. < 1499463798 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. < 1499464240 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1499465431 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499465585 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1499465645 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so old it might even be pre-nitia < 1499465707 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1499465756 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, it might have history older than HackEgo itself < 1499467224 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do befunge interpreters traditionally store code? as just a big 2D array of cells? < 1499467415 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What was the reason for nitia, anyway? < 1499467420 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was the old history lost somehow? < 1499467426 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the interpreter, probably. < 1499467466 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Gregor had a habit of deleting history occasionally. < 1499467467 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for small programs it's not bad but for large, sparse programs I imagine it'd get complicated. < 1499467481 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory overhead especially. < 1499467725 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers discussing multicursor quadtree zippers with elliott at one point, and thinks that may have been a fungespace discussion gone way awry < 1499467775 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also discussed 2D zippers with elliott, I think. < 1499467783 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't remember figuring out a good solution? < 1499467785 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, quadtrees are a possibility. < 1499467802 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they should store data Z-ordered. < 1499467884 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hashtable might work too, perhaps with regions. < 1499468034 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1499468083 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1499468520 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499468622 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, HackEgo's recent files aren't permanently wiped out, are they? It should be fine when or if the server goes back online < 1499468692 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1499468715 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if. < 1499468754 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if the Cloud At Cost people took the money and ran off to Bahamas, it may take quite a lot of time before anyone gets anything out of there. < 1499468770 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have they even managed to give Megaupload customers their files yet? < 1499468771 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1499468856 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I don't think they were making embezzlement-worthy money from the service though. < 1499468908 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embezzlement is TG < 1499468919 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the concept of "bezzle", money created through embezzlement. < 1499468970 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until you get arrested < 1499468985 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION floods shachaf with barass < 1499468996 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a blog post: "However, with Cloud at Cost randomly shutting down servers, randomly deleting servers, taking forever to answer tickets and a host of other problems, I highly doubt any of their customers have gotten anywhere near three years of use out of their products." < 1499469000 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we're a counterexample. < 1499469001 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The discovery of embezzlement destroys money. < 1499469596 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :inode: i would use a dict with a (x,y) tuple as key. it's probably a bit slower, but saves memorye < 1499469624 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: pretty much what I was thinking. < 1499469659 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the option to unpack into an array. < 1499469690 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be interesting to make something like a roguelike where the code 'exists' in the same place as the game it powers. < 1499469719 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"befunge as a scripting language" is now a life goal. < 1499469800 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imode: Code in the same place as the game it powers sort of exists in Wreck It Ralph < 1499469819 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that could be an influence < 1499469837 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :snapmap has something "like" that, where you use the game world as a sort of canvas for triggers, etc. < 1499469887 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could do some neat plot-related stuff with that idea < 1499469915 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :my biggest problem with that would be code re-use. if you were going to actually use the world as a befunge-like canvas, you'd have to figure out methods for procedures. < 1499469955 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hack'n'Slash has a little bit of that sort of thing. < 1499469957 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ways of controlling objects. < 1499469986 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There was another one but I'm having trouble locating it.) < 1499470005 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you'd have to have an entire blank area for one object's code, with objects that you can interact with to move the "parent" in the cardinal directions and perform actions. < 1499470038 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :buttons, maybe? you could pull off a redstone-like system. < 1499470068 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at Hack'n'Slash now. < 1499470074 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: Or if the entire source code for the game was the world itself. You could literally alter the fabric of the game's universe < 1499470082 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lot more of a game than the thing you describe. < 1499470089 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kerbal__: that's kind of what I'm thinking. < 1499470138 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna change how much health you have? warp to a certain point in the world, push a block and hit a button a certain number of times. < 1499470218 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Want to explore the main menu with your character? Go to the relevant section of the code and alter a slice. < 1499470243 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't decide whether the other game I'm thinking about actually existed, or if it was fictional, or if I just dreamed it. < 1499470254 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is making the programming model easy enough. < 1499470260 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hack n slice does similar stuff, from what I just read, though < 1499470342 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be source code in a fungeoidal language as I have been imagining? < 1499470347 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. < 1499470359 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :code exists in the same space as the actual game. < 1499470401 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be really cool, but so hard to edit without crashing everything unless it somehow was designed to be sufficiently easy < 1499470406 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you suggest < 1499470439 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you need something like entry points. or something. < 1499470454 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A new language at bare minimum < 1499470467 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1499470489 0 :__kerbal___!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 JOIN :#esoteric < 1499470502 0 :__kerbal__!aeff8d8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.255.141.139 QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1499470509 0 :__kerbal___!?@? NICK :__kerbal__ < 1499470544 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also Heart.Break(), but that's still not the game I was thinking of. < 1499470551 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it was fictional. < 1499470569 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like programming games that are just "here's javascript, go nuts". < 1499470573 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :much like hackmud.. < 1499470573 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something like this: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton < 1499470586 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but higher level < 1499470603 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you mean barrass? < 1499470603 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something like a schematic? < 1499470604 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way, you don't have to work with single char commands < 1499470608 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1499470613 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm. < 1499470636 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, you get a version of befunge that uses all the Unicode chars or something ridiculous like that < 1499470658 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not ALL the Unicode chars but you get my point < 1499470668 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that point you might as well do something like flow-based programming. < 1499470672 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or factorio-style stuff. < 1499470726 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have boxes as functions that served double duty as buildings... you could go inside < 1499470727 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Factorio is TG < 1499470738 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or get teleported to the function definition < 1499470768 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of what I said the other day, when I first played Factorio I didn't know about the underground belts for a while. < 1499470778 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I tried to make everything planar. < 1499470781 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha. < 1499470781 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i don't know, ask muphry here < 1499470784 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wire crossing problem. :P < 1499470798 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :__kerbal__: you could do something like excel! < 1499470840 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that'd be kinda weird. < 1499470853 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do you like sqrt(2)? < 1499470857 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that wouldn't be overly fun < 1499470887 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1499470925 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might be able to do something graphical... but that would resemble a flowchart, be potentially complex and slow, etc... < 1499470931 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What name do you think an object-oriented language should use for the object whose method is being invoked? < 1499470934 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Do you like this? < 1499470957 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, won't this whole game not exactly be fast? < 1499470958 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1499470974 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends, I suppose. < 1499471037 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, couldn't you win extremely quickly with just the right hacks? < 1499471047 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could take a more abstract approach and have some primitive objects that can move around and do some things in their general vicinity. < 1499471071 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you oculd form a "pipeline" by putting several carrier objects next to eachother and telling them to take the object from their left and put it on their right. < 1499471087 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two "mailbox" objects that transport things from one point on the "map" to another. < 1499471105 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have compound objects that have their own "dimension" with controls exposed by sensory objects. < 1499471124 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Wikipedia said Hack and Slash does that < 1499471151 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I posted a video last night that detailed an approach similar to what I just described... hm. < 1499471310 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1499471338 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it kind of favored two dimensions, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkSXERxucPc < 1499471367 0 :asie!~asie@2a01:7e01::f03c:91ff:fee7:dae PRIVMSG #esoteric :2n^ < 1499471444 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder, though, if you could structure space as kind of a "MUD", where you have locations that objects can move between, and you get a gaggle of objects in a room and wire them together. < 1499471548 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Programming languages I know will call it "this", although some use others. OAA just uses a plus sign to retrieve the "this" object reference. < 1499471622 0 :__kerbal__!683239a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.104.50.57.160 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Python convention uses self < 1499471974 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan didn't appreciate my pun tdnh < 1499471982 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Mr2001 would appreciate it but he isn't here.