00:13:04 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 00:26:05 -!- tsw_ett has joined. 00:28:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:34:58 :\ 00:56:58 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:43 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crorem * New user account 01:30:30 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51643&oldid=51620 * Crorem * (+123) 01:30:42 [wiki] [[User talk:SMA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51644 * Crorem * (+211) Created page with "Hi, I noticed that the link to the interpreter for [[BiTrax]] is dead. Is there any possibility that you could re-host it? Thanks! --~~~~" 01:33:21 That's a little optimistic. 01:35:50 well, it's not _much_ more than a year since User:SMA edited last. 01:36:01 oh wait, it's less. 01:36:10 * oerjan read May as March somehow. 01:38:40 that was an annoying hosting site. and robots.txt violated, so no chance of wayback. 01:39:28 "This file is no longer available because of a claim by system." 01:40:45 meh. 01:42:04 There was a rather odd search hit where the title of the page was "A source code is a bitmap, where each pixel defines a statement:" but then the contents included "Bitrix24 in the App Store" and a Britax baby stroller. 01:42:15 It looks like a website generated from an odd mishmash of things. 01:42:50 Things of somewhat similar lexicographic appearance. 01:45:20 hppavilion[1]: i can construct a square in 12 steps, the three first being marking two arbitrary points and the line between them; are you doing it more complicated than that? 01:45:51 oerjan: I... don't remember. I've deleted the construction because I didn't need it 01:46:07 OKAY 01:46:10 It involved finding a bunch of tangent lines on a circle 01:46:27 well you don't need that to construct a square. 01:46:48 oerjan: Yeah, but that was the only way I could think of 01:47:04 It was, like 01:48:27 A:point, B:point, l:line A B, f:circle A B, g:circle B A, C:intersect l g, and so on or something 01:48:32 I needed a LOT of circles 01:50:15 the first 5 steps are the same as mine. 01:50:40 2 (points) + 1 (line) + 4 (for a perpendicular from first point) + 4 (for a perpendicular from the other point) + 1 (the one missing line) = 12 is what I got. 01:50:42 oh i guess you count finding intersections, i didn't do that. 01:51:05 Is this about that one game or just in general? 01:51:38 i don't know what hppavilion[1] is doing. 01:52:21 fizzie: What game‽‽ 01:52:33 There was that game about constructing things. 01:52:51 https://www.euclidea.xyz/ 01:52:58 I think it was probably that. 01:53:30 not euclidthegame.com? 01:54:01 Yeah, in retrospect that looks more familiar. 01:54:01 which i just found again while trying to seach for an online geometry visualizer (and failing) 01:54:34 I guess euclidea.xyz could be someone's "let's cash in on the fad" thing. 01:54:46 Looks a little more polished maybe. 01:56:20 Like, you get pithy quotes at the end of a task and so on. 01:56:59 hppavilion[1]: ok after what you said, D:intersect l f, h:circle C B, i:circle B C, E,F:intersect h i, m:line E F and that's your first perpendicular. 01:58:23 oerjan: Sounds about right, but I've yet to formally prove the correctness of the ad-hoc language :P 01:58:33 (skimming it suggests you're doing the same thing I did) 01:58:38 Damn squares are convoluted 01:59:59 okay 02:11:07 -!- Zarutian has joined. 02:13:52 hppavilion[1]: your translation talk in the logs made me suddenly realize that the translation of Einstein into a classical greek borrowing is Monolith 02:14:19 oerjan: ...my god. 02:14:28 Or, uh, Mein Gott. 02:15:06 (Or Mein Gotten? Or maybe Mein Götter since polytheism?) 02:15:30 i don't think -en is a suffix used there 02:18:06 wiktionary lists no such word form, even for the archaic 16th-18th century forms. 02:18:50 it would be Meine Götter in the plural. 02:25:12 Misbe-gotten. 02:27:02 . o O ( newton <- new-town -> nea-polis -> naples ) 02:29:10 darwin seems to have disputed etymology 02:31:25 although one of them could give Philophilos 02:31:42 (philos meaning both dear and friend in greek) 02:34:15 the other meaning could give Drys 02:35:17 or maybe Dryinos 02:35:40 which if so looks like it might be cognate 02:36:37 -!- Crorem has joined. 02:36:54 `relcome crorem 02:37:01 Hi 02:37:11 ​crorem: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 02:37:35 Crorem: i'm afraid User:SMA hasn't been seen in nearly a year 02:39:08 i don't remember if they ever came here on irc 02:40:16 That's a shame 02:40:51 Would you know anywhere where the BiTrax interpreter might be archived? 02:41:14 i checked wayback, but of course the site has a robots.txt :( 02:41:37 and fizzie googled some, i think 02:42:23 but he didn't seem to find anything relevant 02:43:44 Drat 02:43:48 Well, thanks for trying 02:52:52 -!- Crorem has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:54:00 oerjan: Oh, whoops, I meant to just say say "Mein Götter", but my syntax messed up when I changed plans 02:54:44 oerjan: But what about the unfortunate town of Dildo? 02:55:08 DUNNO 02:55:08 get your mind out of the götter 03:01:58 There are mnemonics for remembering the planets- "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nachos" (archaic: "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nasty Pizza") or "Mary's Virgin Explanation Made Joseph Suspect Upstairs Neighbor) (xkcd) <-- i think you mean "Served" or something hth 03:02:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:02:40 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HE ESCAPED 03:13:46 <\oren\> the USA has hit a Syrian Air base in homs with 50 cruise missiles 03:13:50 <\oren\> esitmated to destroy at least a quarter of the Syrian Air Force 03:17:50 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 03:45:57 -!- xkapastel has joined. 03:52:01 -!- shikhin has changed nick to {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}. 03:53:41 -!- {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} has changed nick to shikhin. 03:58:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:17:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:19:08 -!- tsw_ett has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:23:55 `? i,i 04:23:56 i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". 04:50:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 05:12:06 <\oren\> AAAAAA Idiots on CNN keep saying it's an "air strike" 05:12:08 <\oren\> those aren't the same unless you're Japanese 05:12:13 <\oren\> It's not it's a CRUISE MISSILE strike 05:47:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:51:32 they're clearly ground strikes, anyway 06:27:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:49:36 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:53:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:57:50 newsham: There's such a thing as a stovetop pizza oven?! 06:57:53 Is it any good? 07:02:17 you're asking me? 07:02:24 i havent heard of a stovetop pizza oven 07:04:24 But you're a pizza expert. 07:06:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:34:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:35:20 voxelperfect.net appears to have been taken over by domain parkers 07:35:28 does anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive? 07:36:30 Is there an equivalent of the Vesica Piscis for ellipses? 07:38:33 actually this may be worth putting in the topic, a lot of esolang content is hosted there 07:38:57 -!- ais523 has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive? | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 07:49:28 it crosses my mind that graue may still be contactable and probably still has a copy, but it may be best to see if an actual regular has a copy, first 07:50:29 ais523: https://github.com/graue/esofiles hth 07:50:29 hmm the (linode) server that went with it seems to be gone as well. 07:50:46 oh good 07:50:52 we should probably update links, in that case 07:51:07 also, get a few clones of the repo going just in case Github gets parked too ;-) 07:51:33 -!- ais523 has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 07:57:54 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:59:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles as a mirror | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 07:59:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 08:08:19 the topic is mostly write-only 08:08:36 [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51645&oldid=49072 * Ais523 * (+472) /* How to make infinite memory */ another, belated, idea 08:08:49 or write-mostly, or is it mostly right? 08:09:04 It seems to be left-mostly. 08:09:15 And rarely right. 08:10:39 well, only the rightmost parts are mostly left 08:11:37 The right part alone is mostly left alone. 08:21:47 * hppavilion[1] hands shachaf an MD 08:22:11 perhaps we should try randomly reordering it and seeing if that changes the sort of edits we normally get? 08:22:34 Well, the logs and esolangs.org links are important. 08:22:47 Most of the rest is usually superfluous. 08:26:00 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:32:43 is wisdom.pdf meant to be a permanent feature? or not? 08:33:00 I don't know. 08:33:13 I don't like it. I don't think my wisdom should be recorded for eternity. 08:33:20 But others like i so who knows. 08:38:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:44:10 I don't really care for it being there permanently, although advertising it when it was made made sense 08:46:27 `le/rn esoteric files archive/The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles 08:46:31 Learned 'esoteric files archive/the esoteric files archive is now available at https:': github.com/graue/esofiles 08:47:14 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | For bots, use #esoteric-blah. 08:53:48 -!- ais523 has quit. 10:20:13 -!- int-e has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 10:45:25 -!- augur has joined. 11:32:12 -!- boily has joined. 11:34:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:39:25 `wisdom 11:39:26 ​?//? is wisdom 11:39:43 yes, but what is wisdom? 11:40:18 -!- augur has joined. 11:42:53 `? wisdom 11:42:54 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 11:43:08 boily: always factually accurate (exceptions may apply) 11:43:28 FirelloFly. I trust the Wisdom. 11:44:13 bohily 11:45:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:50:01 -!- augur has joined. 11:54:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:59:05 -!- augur has joined. 12:03:38 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:08:14 -!- augur has joined. 12:12:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:17:19 -!- augur has joined. 12:21:45 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:26:07 -!- augur has joined. 12:29:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: STEALTH CHICKEN). 12:30:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:35:30 -!- augur has joined. 12:40:20 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:44:24 -!- augur has joined. 12:49:15 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:53:42 -!- augur has joined. 12:57:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:07:03 -!- augur has joined. 13:13:16 heh heh. heard on ##workingset: "make is not a programming language in the sense that people write applications or OSes in it." Sounds like make is an esolang then. 13:13:25 (In the sense that openttd signals are.) 13:39:52 Also sounds like a challenge. 14:08:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:30:54 -!- `^_^v has joined. 14:42:23 -!- augur has joined. 14:46:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:46:59 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:12:58 -!- augur has joined. 15:50:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:54:18 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 15:55:34 -!- idris-bot has joined. 15:56:16 -!- idris-bot has quit (Client Quit). 16:22:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:22:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:39 -!- augur has joined. 16:28:42 -!- Zarutian has joined. 16:34:44 Do they make Fat Link Shorteners? 16:37:00 Fat Link Thinners* 16:37:40 and yes, it's called a font size menu 16:37:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:37:53 works for both fat and long links 16:40:21 not broad ones tho :/ 16:42:19 -!- augur has joined. 16:42:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:46:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:00:06 -!- erkin has joined. 17:06:20 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 17:07:15 -!- keemyb has quit (Quit: https://fnordserver.eu). 17:08:15 -!- ybden has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:18:15 -!- augur has joined. 17:22:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:22:41 -!- Zarutian has joined. 17:29:36 -!- S1 has joined. 17:34:48 -!- moony has joined. 17:35:33 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 17:37:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:39:01 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:44:37 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:52:13 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:53:11 -!- sleffy has joined. 17:54:22 -!- augur has joined. 17:59:07 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:11:40 <\oren\> I wonder if anyone has the phone number 5138008 18:12:56 Why? 18:13:16 <\oren\> if you have 5318008 on a calculator and you turn it upside down 18:13:26 lol, ok 18:23:20 <\oren\> hmm, make is turing complete when you inlcude its ability to run other programs, but what if make is executed in an environment with an innefectual version of sh? 18:24:52 \oren\: gnu make or some other version of make? 18:25:17 <\oren\> gnu make would probably be the most likely to be turing complete... 18:26:37 I think gnu make is probably turing complete. It has all sorts of crazy built-in functions, including text-manip stuff and an eval function. You can define variables. 18:26:51 Has conditionals too. 18:27:33 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-make-2466.html 18:28:34 You can access variables indirectly by name too. 18:37:41 \oren\, pls. y u do joke like dat 18:38:38 -!- ybden has joined. 18:49:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:55:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:00:04 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 19:00:04 -!- sparr has joined. 19:01:19 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...). 19:05:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:08:03 hi 19:08:30 How about a program that searches for all possible combinations of numbers that yields letters, and returns the ones that are in dictionaries? 19:11:07 I already wrote such a program to look for a Google Voice number. 19:12:35 rdococ: wouldn't that just be grep(1)? 19:14:36 probablistic 19:49:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:17:00 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:17:58 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:24:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 20:34:45 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9hqvync5Y 20:39:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:41:52 They're talking about Emmental in class. 20:44:40 Speaking for searching a dictionary. 20:44:42 `` grep -E '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' share/dict-words | perl -pe 'print length($_), " ";' | sort -nr | head -n 20 | cut -d ' ' -f 2 20:44:43 loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry 20:45:10 That's the regex for nethack inventory letter words. 20:46:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:47:01 fizzie: What about uppercase? 20:47:59 If you mean uppercase in input, in my 'words' those are boringly names. If you mean uppercasing the first half in the output, that's left as an exercise. 20:48:20 Oh, wait, you did include the alphabet twice. 20:48:29 Or is it the second half. I forget. Anyway. 20:48:33 OK then. 20:49:22 `dowg bin/sort-by-lengths 20:49:36 No output. 20:49:54 `dowg bin/sort-by-lengths 20:50:00 `cat bin/sort-by-lengths 20:50:01 awk '{print length"\t"$0}' | sort -n | cut -f2- 20:50:02 No output. 20:50:05 'w'? 20:50:07 Oh, right, doag 20:50:11 `doag bin/sort-by-lengths 20:50:18 9746:2016-11-20 mkx bin/sort-by-lengths//awk \'{print length"\\t"$0}\' | sort -n | cut -f2- 20:50:21 fizzie: I thought it was a pretty wise move to put it there. 20:51:55 `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-length | tac | head -n20 20:51:56 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found 20:51:59 `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20 20:52:00 loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry 20:53:13 `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20 20:53:14 loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry 20:53:31 `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n30 | xargs 20:53:32 loquacity imprudent certainty mortuary invaders impudent hostelry horsefly hindmost foremost envelops eloquent develops degrades deforest definers corsairs citadels chowders chivalry belabors airships adorably adjacent adequacy acquaint acerbity abstains thirsty tailors 20:53:42 Thirsty tailors. 20:53:50 Hungry sailors. 20:54:47 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:55:32 It's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do, isn't it? 20:55:53 What a mess. 21:00:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:16:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:21:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:23:50 I had the idea "HTTP Directory Listing", which has the format of a list of key:value pairs with blank lines between records, and with the MIME type "application/directory-listing" perhaps. That is the main problem with HTTP, so the implementation of this idea would fix that problem. 21:23:58 ?messages-loud 21:23:58 shachaf asked 3d 20h 56m 51s ago: Do you like this? 21:23:58 shachaf said 3d 17h 1m 16s ago: By "this" I meant System F. Hope that helps. 21:26:17 `` < /usr/share/dict/words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs 21:26:18 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory 21:26:28 `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs 21:26:29 xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option 21:26:34 mm 21:29:07 `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | tr \\n \ 21:29:08 electroencephalograph's electroencephalographs electroencephalogram's counterrevolutionary's counterrevolutionaries Andrianampoinimerina's electroencephalograph electroencephalograms counterintelligence's uncharacteristically 21:29:57 -!- moony has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:30:35 hah. I didn't look at the code above... funny it should be the same... minus one unintended bug. 21:31:39 (namely, using $1 instead of $0) 21:31:55 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:37:20 Particle Physics is all about seeing small numbers as huge; math is all about seeing infinitely large numbers as quaint. 21:40:16 lol 21:42:00 QuickBASIC does not allow a RETURN command inside of a SUB/FUNCTION to specify the label to return to. 21:42:22 I think it ought to be allowed (only if returning to another label in the same subroutine though) 21:52:17 I had the idea of implementing GOTOs by allowing the instruction pointer to be read and written like a variable 22:09:54 <\oren\> rdococ: that doesn't tend to work well unless you have labels as constant variables 22:11:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:25:41 that was the approach I was taking 22:27:13 `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-length 22:27:13 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found 22:27:19 `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-lengths 22:27:19 long \ 缩短 22:27:40 `` locale 22:27:41 LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ 22:29:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:29:33 -!- `^_^v has joined. 22:29:35 `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk 'print length;' 22:29:36 awk: line 1: syntax error at or near print 22:29:41 `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk '{print length;}' 22:29:42 6 \ 4 22:29:57 it's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do 22:34:07 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'print length $_;' 22:34:08 75 22:34:15 <\oren\> WTF 22:34:24 <\oren\> oh, newlines 22:34:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit). 22:34:33 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'chomp;print length $_;' 22:34:34 64 22:35:17 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'use utf8;chomp;print length $_;' 22:35:18 64 22:36:04 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -Cne 'chomp;print length $_;' 22:36:05 Unknown Unicode option letter 'n'. 22:36:12 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -C -ne 'chomp;print length $_;' 22:36:12 24 22:36:16 <\oren\> there 22:38:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:39:00 <\oren\> does awk have a unicode option 22:39:04 rdococ: ARM32 allows accessing the IP as r15; writing to it results in jumps 22:41:39 <\oren\> what if you increment it? 22:42:08 Jafet: To sort by length accurately you need to know what font you're using. 22:42:43 <\oren\> shachaf: or demand the user use a CJKwidth-correct font 22:43:02 Anyway sort-by-length operates on bytes, not characters. 22:43:50 unfortunately, people probably use different fonts 22:43:56 (and different terminals) 22:44:19 Terminals are unique up to isomorphism. 22:45:04 so are initials, apparently 22:45:29 I suppose that's why there is only one xinit and one xterm 22:45:56 <\oren\> cjkwidth-correct fonts at least guarantee that a cjk character is twice the width of a latin character. the standards are iffy on emoji, brahmic and arabic thoough 22:46:01 looking at my screen there are many xterms 22:46:13 But they're all xisomorphic. 22:46:48 adsf 22:47:05 <\oren\> gjhk 22:47:18 ugh 22:47:20 I need inspiration 22:47:31 You should take inspiration from int-e. 22:47:39 int-e, inspiration please 22:47:45 Waaaaaaah, I needed that. 22:48:11 I meant the thing where int-e talked about the kinds of things you say in this channel. 22:50:58 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 22:55:12 ... 22:57:19 Has anyone ever written a book on how to be uncreative, I wonder. 22:57:37 contrapumpkin: yontrapumpkin 22:59:16 * rdococ sad 22:59:58 <\oren\> int-e: perhaps "Design Patterns"? 23:00:38 \oren\: oh that's better than the direction I was heading (something about accounting) 23:02:36 by the gang of forced analogies 23:03:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:03:19 Sorry for being uncreative. it's just that my creativity is sapped every day by something called school. 23:03:34 I try my best to fight it, but I guess I'm just meant to be an Average Joe. 23:04:10 <\oren\> rdococ: what kind of school? 23:04:50 A school purported to be for "special" kids, despite the fact that they're no different. 23:10:47 how is it sapping your creativity? 23:11:22 * Zarutian is genuinly curious to know what can be done better with education. 23:13:02 <\oren\> I was in the "gifted" program until I realized they were just giving us twice as much work and quit it 23:13:35 Zarutian, a lot. 23:13:53 Zarutian, I can tell you, what we have right now that passes for "education" in today's world, is horse manure. 23:14:20 oren: mostly busywork, yes? 23:14:22 I could be curing cancer with doodles, and the teacher would probably still tell me to do my work. 23:14:43 rdococ: you mean 'show your work' kind of work? 23:14:56 Whadya mean? 23:15:19 like in maths. You show every step of the way. 23:15:41 I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain? 23:16:15 or you talking about 'this homework which is impossibly boring and uses stuff that I havent covered yet is due tomorrow', kind of stuff? 23:16:48 Nah. I just plainly refuse and forget about any homework I receive, but I am worried for other students in other schools too. 23:17:54 <\oren\> I think they should increase career oriented focus in high school 23:18:12 I once got a math teacher two insisted on 'show my workings out', he quit it when he got back a worksheet from me that showed each microstep in excrusiating detail. 23:18:25 Lol :P 23:19:04 \oren\: perhaps this is a cultural misunderstanding, high school being ages 12-16 years? 23:19:59 But seriously, children are humans - just like adults, and they should be given choices. Many counters I've heard from staff are "What if you get a job and you're told to do something you don't want to do?" My response is always "You get paid for a job, and you signed up for it." Of course, they never respond to that, because they know I'm right. 23:20:02 elementary school here goes from 5 or 6 to 16 years. There is no high school here. 23:20:12 <\oren\> In Canada: grade 1-6 -> pirmary school, 7+8 : middle school. 9-12 :high school 23:20:16 I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain? 23:20:42 explaining your answers is at least as if not more important than producing correct answers 23:21:04 And why is that? 23:21:25 Also, it has nothing to do with the ratio of good education to horse manure in current "education". 23:21:32 because, in general, why would anyone believe the automatic processes of your brain 23:21:39 rdococ: my response to these kind of 'reasoning' by teachers is: sure I will do it but it better have utility, something that your busywork does not. 23:21:44 -!- boily has joined. 23:22:21 Zarutian: I have previously mentioned a variant of that. 23:22:25 s/mentioned/used 23:22:28 <\oren\> anyway, I think they need to start having streams toward different career categories starting at age 14 at the latest 23:22:59 Scrap that, school is a prison and it needs to be abolished if we want our species to have a future. 23:23:06 rdochelloc, he\\oren\, Zarutellon. 23:23:27 also, I knew quite a lot of people that did not leave the school building until the 'homework' was done. Why? Because work is at work and school stuff is no different. If you do not learn this early you will have life-work balance issues. 23:23:40 school needs to be revised, but kept. it is essential. 23:23:49 Essential to what? Horse manure? 23:24:04 boily: indeed. But there are pedalogics that defy logics 23:24:15 <\oren\> rdococ: essential to acquiring the skills to earn money 23:24:38 <\oren\> something which even universities aren't focused on these days 23:24:46 rdococ are you presently in school 23:24:51 <\oren\> that's the core of the problem 23:25:03 \oren\: Depends what you consider under the term "school". Would a learning environment that's not comparable to manure be considered school? 23:25:11 <\oren\> yes 23:25:23 Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to shun me when I reveal that I am presently in school, simply because I am a "student"? 23:25:24 never understood why univeristies and such are meant to be training camps for employers. 23:25:48 <\oren\> Zarutian: becasue they cost so much 23:25:59 Oh, and it's not just school I have a problem with. 23:26:25 <\oren\> if universities are not teaching how to earn money, then they are a waste of time and a waste of enormous aamounts of money 23:26:26 rdococ, well i mean school can be stressful and shitty for various reasons which can lead one to indulge in fantasies of radical educational reform 23:26:37 oren: the camps? or the univeristies? Srue the price has gone up but then the overhead has too afaisi. 23:26:44 s/can be/inevitably is 23:27:11 I have a problem with some of the most common parenting practices too. 23:27:34 i'm sure you do 23:27:44 talking about schools. The whole concept of grading is crappy but especially how USA implement it. 23:27:45 Time-outs for doing "naughty" things can fuck right off, because children act to achieve their urgent needs. 23:27:51 Urgent needs for love and care. 23:28:11 And it's the parent's fault if the child has to act "naughty" to get attention. 23:28:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: I advocate radical education reform and I became a fully-fledged adult with a well paying job more than a year ago 23:28:20 I have gone back with papers that just got an grade and nothing else from the teacher. 23:28:34 Well, they may be under a lot of stress; work could be to blame too. 23:28:50 <\oren\> however, the problem is that up until university, virtually nothing I was taught I actually use in my present job 23:28:53 \oren\, i have nothing against radical education reform in general but in this case it just reads as venting personal stress 23:29:23 i honestly find the idea that education should be whittled down to totally utilitarian job preparation to be completely abhorrent 23:29:36 oren: oh, you use what the British called the three Rs, every day do you not? (Reading, wRiting and aRithmatic) 23:29:51 What's wrong with venting personal stress? 23:30:09 <\oren\> I wasn't taught those in school. My parent's taught them to me before I entered kindergarten 23:30:11 Zarutian: Reading can often be learnt at home with these things you can get from shops and libraries called "books". 23:30:19 a common line in this vein is "school never taught me to file my taxes or write a monthly budget!" 23:30:52 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: well, why not? isn't that a useful thing that could be included? 23:31:12 Phantom_Hoover: nor did the schools even teach how to even get information about that kind of stuff. We Icelanders have an class for that kind of stuff, it is called 'Lífsleikni'. 23:31:46 well apparently it doesn't work! students just don't give a shit about being taught very specific procedures that they don't actually need to perform yet 23:32:01 Phantom_Hoover: Students don't give a shit about things they're forced into doing. 23:32:09 And no wonder. 23:32:26 jesus christ rdococ how much educational psychology research have you done 23:32:28 how much have you read 23:32:33 Phantom_Hoover: ? 23:32:42 and how much are you drawing your opinions from "they made me do this at school and it pissed me off" 23:32:53 ... 23:33:07 They force students to do a lot of things. Namely lessons many of them are probably not interested in. 23:33:08 <\oren\> rdococ: hence why I advocate having different streams starting at an early age. kids who like math can go into the math stream and not bother with essays for example 23:33:09 b/c my current evaluation is that all your strongly-proclaimed views on How Education Should Be Done derive entirely from the latter 23:33:31 Phantom_Hoover: My opinions are drawn from "CHILDREN ARE HUMANS". 23:33:41 Phantom_Hoover: to answer your question even though it was not aimed at me: I have done something strange, I have looked into the methadologies of some educational psychology research and frankly found it rather wanting. 23:34:00 s/found it/found them/ 23:34:13 rdococ, lol 23:34:38 i didn't realise that you had a total and infallible model of human nature worked out 23:34:48 ??? 23:34:59 What on earth are you talking about? 23:35:15 you apparently know exactly what should and shouldn't be done in education 23:35:22 solely on the basis of "CHILDREN ARE HUMANS" 23:35:46 oren: what I have found the most irritating about schooling is rote-memorization. 23:35:49 Phantom_Hoover: So you think treating children like actual humans - giving them the right of choice to what they want to learn about - is "exact"? 23:36:07 you've never been responsible for a child have you rdococ 23:36:07 <\oren\> there would be at the very least a generalized "Art Stream", "Humanities Stream", "Science Stream", divided starting in grade 5 23:36:18 Phantom_Hoover: You've never given a fuck about a child, have you? 23:36:29 you just are/were recently a child and have a chip on your shoulder about your treatment 23:37:01 Phantom_Hoover: is the converse the true about you? That you were child so long ago that you have forgotten? 23:37:02 Phantom_Hoover: Seriously? 23:37:13 rdococ, i've never been responsible for a child, no. which is why i don't go around shooting my mouth off about it on the internet like i know for sure how best to do it 23:37:30 this apparently is no obstacle to you 23:37:32 Phantom_Hoover: I have even deeper experience with children. I AM A CHILD. 23:37:46 well no shit welcome to the entire fucking human race 23:38:13 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think about the idea of dividing students into different career streams very early 23:38:36 Phantom_Hoover: Hm. Okay. Let me get this straight. You think I should have little to no say in how I should be treated, for what legitimate reason exactly? 23:38:48 oren: it is not the splitting up the curiculum or such that I deem to be the problem but the actual methods used to do teaching. 23:39:04 At the moment, it's hard not to call you an asshole for thinking I shouldn't be given freedoms. 23:39:15 i mean you are obviously entitled to a say but not to total dictatorial fiat over the matter 23:39:25 That's not what you sound like. 23:39:28 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:39:38 rdococ: Look, one source of your lack of creativity is probably that you simply disregard certain kinds of information as uninteresting. However, one key source of inspiration is to think about various things, and try to connect them. School may not be perfect but it can still function as a source of inspiration. You probably also do not appreciate (but that time will come) just how much free... 23:39:44 ...time you have, even with school taking a huge part out of that. Finally, this is hard to accept, but what you think is good for you and what will actually benefit you in the long term are not the same thing. 23:39:48 <\oren\> I think if students are being taught subjects they are interested in they will learn well even if teachers are quite incompetent 23:39:52 \oren\, sounds crazy tbqh 23:40:02 So you think shit like school is going to benefit me? 23:40:20 `relcome sleffy 23:40:22 ​sleffy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 23:40:22 Even if all I've actually learned is "my life is futile" or some shit like that? 23:40:24 rdococ: you could look at Phantom_Hoover as a demented geraric that should not be given as much freedom as he is old curmagedonly and does not know how to navigate the current world. Just as an thought exercise. 23:40:50 Phantom_Hoover is old? 23:40:53 Zarutian: You know, that's actually a very good idea. It would show him how I feel. 23:41:03 I'm not sure how I would go about it, though. 23:41:13 -!- xfix has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:41:18 fuck me we were the channel babies 6 years ago and already we're geriatrics 23:41:26 whoa, I get a relcome committee? 23:41:31 Phantom_Hoover: this is how your attitude to rdococ comes across here. 23:42:11 my attitude to rdococ is basically "i remember kind of feeling similarly in the past and i now think that i was pretty misguided" 23:42:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: why should we teach students to analyze shakespeare if they are destined to program, write proofs, or weld steel? 23:42:28 And it comes across as "You are pretty misguided because I think I was." 23:42:43 Well, Phantom_Hoover, you seem to be the misguided one here. 23:42:47 pretty much yeah. you sound pretty misguided 23:43:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:43:12 Phantom_Hoover: you remember feeling similarly in the past and now you think you were pretty misguided. What caused your change of heart? 23:43:17 i'm guessing you're mid teens? everyone in their mid teens thinks that they unquestionably know what's best for them and that the world is unfairly conspiring to keep them down 23:43:24 -_- 23:43:38 there is a programming language based on shakespeare 23:43:48 . o O ( they're half right anyway... :-P ) 23:43:50 <\oren\> t(-_-)t 23:44:03 . o O ( guess which half ;-) ) 23:44:05 Phantom_Hoover: oh, ya think this is purely gelgjuskapur? (closest but not quite acurate translation is teenage agnst) 23:44:07 \oren\, well do you think the purpose of school is solely to turn you into an effective worker 23:44:11 <\oren\> yes 23:44:23 as opposed to an effective member of society? 23:44:43 Jafet: yeah, but I do not recall its name. I could be something like "To Be or Not To Be, that is the buzzing question" 23:44:47 sleffy: we always welcome newcomers to this fine channel! (we being usually myself, trigger happy with the `relcomes...) 23:44:48 -.- 23:44:49 <\oren\> to a first order approximation, an effective worker is an effective contributor to society 23:45:06 sleffy: have you already perused our magnific wiki? 23:45:15 Zarutian, well that's too patronising because obviously a lot of people do go through unfair shit in their teens 23:45:28 Phantom_Hoover: what is an effective member of society? Everyone I have ever asks only give answers that are insubstancial as fog when probed. 23:45:35 boily: did you see that shachaf rebelled against the eternal wisdom? 23:45:39 but when you're a teenager you tend to be really bad at evaluating that! 23:45:45 int-e: What! 23:45:49 boily, that's how I got here 23:46:01 ais523 is responsible. 23:46:23 Zarutian, idk. as far as shakespeare goes i think the ability to engage with and understand culture is valuable and we would be impoverished without it 23:46:27 int-ello! what you say! 23:46:28 actually, the language is just named Shakespeare 23:46:28 Specifically, my interest in entirely usable and practical programming languages with real-world applications 23:46:31 Phantom_Hoover: it is the patronising that seems to be what is comming from you. But then again often the 'it is too complex for you to understand' implict attitude does that. 23:46:39 Phantom_Hoover: Okay. Listen. You think you know what my life is like? Well, you don't. You've grown so old you don't remember how shit school was. But I do remember, because I am living in it. I don't give a fuck if it's "beneficial to me in the long term" (which it absolutely isn't), I'm sick of being treated like shit. 23:47:11 sleffy: computer science student? 23:47:12 look i'm not saying, at all, that whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining 23:47:20 rdococ: do tell, perhaps we gain some insight why the schooling system is not working, at least not working for you? 23:47:31 boily, I guess I'm technically a student 23:47:48 I'm fresh out of high school, on a "gap year" which turned into getting bored enough to take classes at city college 23:47:55 <\oren\> I was a high school student only 6 years ago 23:47:58 what i am saying is that you shouldn't use your personal experiences to inform a total hatred of all formal education 23:48:09 I don't hate all formal education. 23:48:12 I hate all public schooling. 23:48:20 potato, potato 23:48:23 sleffy: heh :D 23:48:23 boily: http://sprunge.us/NgEP seems to be the relevant bit (for reference, it's now 00:48) 23:48:31 you shouldn't do that either 23:48:43 Okay. 23:48:48 Language design is a hobby, personal goal is a fairly ergonomic efficient and purely functional language which can run without a heap 23:48:56 Phantom_Hoover: do like I do, look if the experience is shared with lot of other people, then use that to inform the hatred of stultified education. 23:49:00 I hate all public schooling that requires you to "learn" about things you're not interested in. 23:49:05 int-e: dun dun dun! I can't remember when was the last time I updated it, tho... 23:49:32 Phantom_Hoover: The point is, the majority of what people think when they hear the word "school", is utter bullshit. 23:49:41 rdococ: and are not even remotely usefull? is that a good qualifier to add? 23:49:49 boily: just before christmas it seems 23:49:59 Zarutian: Agreed. 23:50:00 rdococ, hahaha do you not see how you're coming across here as an angry kid who thinks he knows better than everyone else 23:50:15 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: to you maybe, I quite sympathize 23:50:19 sleffy: running without a heap is quite difficult. you can try to cram everything on the stack, but then you're still stuck doing some memory shuffling by other means to achieve interesting stuff. 23:50:25 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I know better than everyone else. But I do know better than everyone else about myself. 23:50:35 And, perhaps, other students too. 23:50:37 int-e: it's always before christmas. 23:50:46 I don't know what goes on in the brains of other people, and I don't admit to that. 23:50:53 boily: it's not always *just* before christmas though. 23:50:56 you objectively don't, humans are incredibly shitty at self-evaluating 23:50:58 boily, I'm okay with a sorta "holey" stack. That's a necessary sacrifice to make. For reference I'm looking at Rust's implementation which admits the same thing 23:50:58 But I do know many students seem to complain. 23:51:00 rdococ: even though said usefullness is only to kindle a bit of likeness to good asethetics. Like learning of the still life paintings of the old masters. 23:51:09 TBF Rust trusts the LLVM to optimize bits of that away 23:51:24 int-e: point. 23:51:46 And also, while I want it to be usable without a heap, I recognize that for many things a heap is borderline necessary, so I want to make heap operations available via a library 23:52:07 Phantom_Hoover: Imagine a thought experiment where you were prodded and poked with a hot iron, and then I said the same sort of things to you. How would you feel? Probably pretty upset. But that's just your objective shittiness to self-evaluation, correct? 23:52:08 * int-e ponders doing a quick s/shachaf/anonymous/g 23:52:10 putting everything on the stack would mean aligning your function call structure with your memory allocation patterns, right? 23:52:16 rdococ: what do those students complain mostly about? 23:52:55 rdococ, i'm not even going to engage with that because you are not in fact being prodded with a hot iron 23:53:09 <\oren\> basically, I was forced to learn about shakespere plays and other things that I wasn't interested in, do not use in my present job, and had no benefit I can percieve. 23:53:45 Phantom_Hoover: Really, I thought I was. The point is, humans might be shitty at self-evaluation, but they aren't shitty at realising when they're being treated like shit. 23:53:55 i absolutely hated doing shakespeare in school but 23:53:57 What if I said all this kind of stuff to slaves, back when slavery was accepted? 23:53:58 But what? 23:54:37 But now you're grateful because you can now torment the next generation on how they're so bad at self-evaluation? 23:54:39 later on in english we did some other texts which i found engaging and had things to say about 23:54:44 Phantom_Hoover, yeah, I guess so, if I understand exactly what you mean 23:54:45 So? 23:54:55 Phantom_Hoover: What does that have to do with shakespeare? 23:54:59 I assume you're referring to returning large structures which don't fit in a register? 23:55:09 rdococ: news for ya, most people are still bad at self-evaluation even after teenage years. 23:55:17 Phantom_Hoover: Maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a writer. 23:55:25 * Zarutian considers himself below average driver for example. 23:55:55 and subsequently the ability to critically analyse works i read for entertainment has, i think, really enhanced my appreciation of them 23:55:58 Zarutian: Maybe that's what Phantom_Hoover is going through, then. He is re-evaluating his past at school, and his past-evaluation is shit - which I definitely agree is true. 23:56:13 Phantom_Hoover: Again, maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a author. 23:56:14 it's kind of hard to make a minimalist stack language if you want it to be more powerful than push-down 23:56:40 Jafet: You could cheat and turn it into a tape by adding a command to move the top element to the bottom. 23:56:44 Jafet, no it isn't 23:57:26 <\oren\> rdococ: I have a more advanced theory: If I hadn't wasted so much time on useless stuff I could have entered university 2 years earlier, and by now been working fro 3 years. 23:57:27 efficient stack-only allocation basically just means that you malloc/free in FILO order 23:57:34 it's already hard to make a pure functional language that doesn't have pippenger's slowdown 23:57:44 well malloc isn't really minimalist 23:57:51 Phantom_Hoover: Do you think your two separate experiences of "doing Shakespeare" and "critically analysing works" somehow 'prove' that school is 'good' for you? Because they don't. 23:57:59 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:58:34 i think they proved to me that hating being in a class in school does not invalidate the entire value of teching that thing in school 23:58:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 23:58:52 It kind of does, if you're not interested in such a thing in the first place. 23:59:12 Either way, it definitely comes across to me that you are saying "whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining" 23:59:33 <\oren\> basically, by not allowing children to specialize their education to the things they are good at, we are wasting literally YEARS of productivity for every individual 23:59:38 no, not at all. i am saying that please stop posting here saying that school is useless and terrible 23:59:44 Exactly, \oren\. 23:59:45 also you may mean fifo order, which is less delicious but more stack-like