00:06:28 -!- hppavilion1 has joined. 00:15:38 -!- tromp has joined. 00:20:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:27:04 -!- tromp has joined. 00:37:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:46:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:01:50 -!- lleu has joined. 01:01:50 -!- lleu has quit (Changing host). 01:01:50 -!- lleu has joined. 01:02:13 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:09:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 01:12:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 01:23:55 -!- tromp has joined. 01:47:00 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 01:50:36 \oren\: The program is not written in C though; it is JavaScript 01:51:09 The file format used by SQLite4 may do, but I do not have the implementation in JavaScript 01:51:26 There's a version 4 of sqlite? 01:51:45 Website just lists 3 I think... 01:52:53 There is; version 4 uses a key/value storage as a backend storage format, where the key and value are both binary data. However I only needed a number as the key and not arbitrary data. 01:54:30 What's wrong with a format that supports arbitrary data as the key? 01:54:59 Mainly, is overdoing for my purpose. 01:56:01 Is sqlite4's key-value database good? 01:56:26 They say it's faster than LevelDB but they don't say for what. For everything? 01:56:27 I don't know actually 01:56:37 I have never used it 02:11:15 i literally haven't seen any discussion of esoteric languages since i first joined this channel 02:13:36 I should talk here, otherwise people forget I exist 02:13:45 krok_: it happens sometimes 02:13:52 I've seen it once or twice. I've been here for years 02:14:00 krok_: We don't always have, but if you have question about them, you can ask 02:14:16 zzo38: thanks 02:27:09 I really ought to post my language somewhere so I can add it to the Wiki and have a source... 02:34:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:37:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:37:57 -!- krok_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:06:11 -!- tromp has joined. 03:08:06 I though the MtG stuff was esoteric-related 03:13:53 tfw an entire evening of coding amounts to figuring out how to get the compiler installed 03:13:59 thanks, cabal 03:32:03 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:41:32 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Urbanangel * New user account 04:14:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 04:15:10 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:17:02 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50833&oldid=50824 * Urbanangel * (+204) /* Introductions */ 04:17:14 [wiki] [[Sd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1400) Created page with "=== How it works === There are two variables, known as variable1 and variable2. You change these to manipulate code, output ASCII characters and change your position in the co..." 04:17:32 [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50835&oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Commands */ 04:17:46 [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50836&oldid=50835 * Urbanangel * (-1) /* Commands */ 04:18:15 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:19:06 [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50837&oldid=50836 * Urbanangel * (-4) /* Hello World */ 04:19:14 [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50838&oldid=50837 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Hello World */ 04:19:55 [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50839&oldid=50838 * Urbanangel * (+0) /* Hello World */ 04:40:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:02:42 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 05:08:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:46:37 -!- augur has joined. 05:51:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:33:31 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 06:36:25 -!- Jafet has joined. 06:42:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:05:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:16:33 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:22:51 <\oren\> suppose I have a set of exactly 4 values. would it be faster to call qsort or to do some fixed set of compare and swaps 07:23:58 <\oren\> more generally, at what fixed array size does it become faster to call a sort function than to do some fixed set of 07:24:18 <\oren\> if(a[i]>a[j])swap(a,i,j); 07:24:31 <\oren\> statements 07:25:06 <\oren\> I can sort 4 values with 5 compare swaps 07:28:52 <\oren\> not sure about 6 07:30:59 -!- MoALTz has joined. 07:31:33 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network hth 07:32:53 qsort is a generic function 07:33:13 it's never faster than any alternative 07:33:37 calling an indirect function instead of cmp is too expensive 07:38:02 <\oren\> izabera: ok, but at what point does a sorting network become less efficient than an algorithm where ther sequence of comparisons is not fixed? 07:38:22 <\oren\> shachaf: thanks for the pointer 07:40:45 -!- hppavilion1 has joined. 07:45:31 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:06:19 -!- myname has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:10:17 -!- myname has joined. 08:33:43 qsort may be faster if the program runs for less time than the programmer spent writing it 08:42:13 -!- tromp has joined. 08:46:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:06:03 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 09:51:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:14:57 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:43:28 -!- tromp has joined. 10:47:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:01:06 -!- LKoen has joined. 11:37:37 -!- Akaibu has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:44:32 -!- nooga has joined. 11:57:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:57:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 11:57:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:59:22 -!- tromp has joined. 12:03:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:07:13 `? password 12:07:14 The password of the month is AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ 12:07:23 `learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 12:07:25 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is n9y25ah7 12:10:01 -!- augur has joined. 12:11:07 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:14:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:23:49 -!- mroman has joined. 12:29:19 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 12:44:41 -!- tromp has joined. 12:58:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:00:17 -!- kiki` has joined. 13:09:49 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 13:12:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 13:22:11 -!- adu has joined. 13:31:57 -!- boily has joined. 13:33:20 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:34:48 `wisdom 13:34:50 maple//Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything. 13:34:53 int-e: Aqenbpuu. 13:34:55 WOOHOO! 13:35:18 I always liked maples 13:35:20 boily: You don't have to be that happy it was about Canada. 13:35:41 the HackEgo is alive! 13:36:19 fizzie: I'm sure we can have two potms for a good cause 13:45:21 `? mapole 13:45:22 A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg. 13:46:20 -!- tromp has joined. 13:48:02 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 13:51:45 -!- adu has joined. 13:52:19 -!- Arif1 has joined. 13:52:30 -!- Arif1 has left. 14:08:21 -!- VisualizeR has joined. 14:11:19 `relcome VisualizeR 14:11:21 ​VisualizeR: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 14:12:00 hi boily, thanks for having me. 14:22:46 so polite 14:22:49 fungot: help! 14:22:49 int-e: not running os x, you don't ever *have* to do that. 14:29:12 VisualizeR: what brings you here? do you like esolanging? what is your stance about roast beef? 14:30:25 I'm designing games, so I'm an artist. but I figured this is more about programming which I'm not so good at. roast beef is fine once in a month but I wouldn't want to have it any day. 14:31:18 nice! yes, this is about programming, at least the moments it is about programming... 14:32:02 haha yeah its always good to tunnel and come back some place and socialize, right? 14:33:46 I just set up freenode and the user count in the list was promising. so..is this about esoterics or not? and if so how is it connected to order information? does it help to shape benefitial thought patterns? what is the goal? 14:36:15 esoteric programming is fringe programming. it is exploring the limits of its meaning through creativity, poetry, absurdity and mental ankle sprains. 14:38:00 I'm aware of what esoterics is but I don't see how that helps in developing an efficient language. a coder might understand a side joke you put in there on purpose, but the computer running it doesn't. 14:40:17 we don't usually care about efficiency, just possibility. of course we sometimes discuss about regular languages. 14:41:40 there are a few mathematicians in this channel, a bunch of software developers, many bots, one cyborg, and fungot. 14:41:41 boily: it would need bindings to c++ and see what happens? did you try to index it out of two apples, a roll of string and a piece of functional perl: perl -e ' print &&sub my f shift; return sub my n shift; return 1 if n 2; return &&f(f)(n-1) &&f(f)(n-2); )(8), " deep copies" and " after 14:42:06 this 14:43:06 VisualizeR: esolangs are games in some sense 14:43:17 . o O ( I suspect boily's better at spraining ankles than most ) 14:44:20 -!- int-e has set topic: The international hub for Esoteric Mentalism | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 14:44:35 `? pun 14:44:36 Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings. 14:44:53 I see, you're meta philosophising about how it should be and how to get there. in order to make possibilities graspable I'd always try to visualize them. So personally I think visual coding is the best way to achieve permutations when you already set up a system. the end user should be able to operate it at will and create them. 14:46:40 boily: wait, a cyborg? 14:47:46 myndzi. 14:48:04 ^celebrate 14:48:04 \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/ 14:48:15 seems broken. 14:48:25 well, absent really :) 14:48:48 we still need a spider who talks about endoskeletons ( https://xkcd.com/1530/ ) 14:49:17 `? golf 14:49:18 Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke. 14:50:58 technically correct 14:51:09 well, I thought about this recently and it occured to me that programming can be seen as just "instructing machines to take information from one abstract place, transform it and then put it in another abstract place" 14:51:53 your point being? 14:52:16 but there are no constraints on the form of information and the machines at all 14:52:58 yup basically like ribosomes copying snippets of dna to form proteins, translation and transcription 14:53:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:53:50 for instance, yes 14:54:03 -!- tromp has joined. 14:56:43 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:59:17 so then, visual programming is just another notation that helps people to think about what goes where and how the computation looks like 14:59:47 but there are machines all the way down 15:00:41 they're just tools that compute faster 15:01:51 but you can do that without any special "visual language" 15:02:17 a modular system that allows for combinations is the best system to have in my eyes. sure it only involves everything within system, bus this is why you need to made sure it has support for extentions. 15:02:50 the general user doesn't know about coding, they're used to moving a mouse and clicking stuff 15:04:15 functional programming is about that: transforming functions into other functions, and composing those functions together. it lends pretty well to visual and dataflow programming. 15:04:17 i'm thinking about better ways to teach kids programming right from the start because it can help them way better in the world we're heading to. 15:04:56 I think Lego NXT is the best effort out there to engage the next generation with programming. 15:05:54 functional 15:06:27 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:07:12 I like minecraft, especially the tech mods 15:07:44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5mQxX-Zd0 I'm thinking about this game called codespells. they did it very well 15:08:24 it's great stuff, it can teach you how to design scalable, distributed systems without ever mentioning it 15:10:05 one problem with visual programming systems, such as puredata, is that eventually you end up with an unholy mess of wires 15:11:24 and usually they don't implement any kind of metaprogramming facilities 15:12:49 isn't this regular capsuling of scripts? 15:12:50 which is hard to visualise because it suddenly needs more dimensions 15:13:17 yes, that's one dimension 15:14:19 but how about having a block that can transform and spawn given subgraps and is programmed visually itself? 15:15:10 simply open up another type of scripts for every within that subsystem 15:15:31 *object 15:16:19 -!- Zarutian has joined. 15:17:41 I'm not sure if that would be enough to go meta 15:20:56 it has to be self-sustaining, be relevant as a program and on top of that it can influence society. that is the meta level, so there needs to be hubs on each section branching to the subsystems depending on the desired content 15:21:11 as for the kids... there should be something like "SICP for kids" 15:22:02 http://landoflisp.com/ ? 15:22:30 -!- augur has joined. 15:22:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:22:58 yeeeeaaahhh but without mentioning LISP 15:24:32 just uh, teaching youngsters about computation without imposing any particular programming system 15:25:33 because this kind of thinking isn't much harder to learn than algebra 15:26:05 and gives you something that laymen see as a superpower 15:26:41 you can tell machines what to do and use them to make changes in the world 15:27:23 brb 15:27:27 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:30:25 personally I think the biggest problem nowadays is we have too much freedom on one hand and too little of it on the other. it would require teaching them why it is beneficial. it needs something like an entry drug and games are perfect for that. this is about having one option or many to choose from and most people stick to one thing after they have found "their" thing. 15:32:19 so when you talk to people about why they should use this particular language you use and why they should too this is like talknig about religion or other products. our personal view biases us into limiting our own view. we like to go to the biggest system around and simply go with it. I know this doesn't apply to you guys. 15:32:23 just saying that it is free will if people choose to have one or many options 15:32:48 -!- augur has joined. 15:41:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:44:08 -!- nooga has joined. 15:53:39 I think visual programming is great for domain specific things. 15:54:40 but anyway 15:54:46 the difficulty in programming is not the way you do it. 15:54:54 whether it's a graphical language or a non-graphical one 15:55:05 A for loop is a for loop. 15:56:36 who decides that the logic used within is the best there is? 15:58:18 http://codepad.org/snRrxLzj <- there 15:58:26 that's the transcript from the codespells video 15:58:38 aside that there are no blue, pink, green boxes around the text 15:58:41 it's literally the same thing. 15:59:19 it's just a fancier way of displaying text. 15:59:22 that's pretty much it. 16:00:10 that is exactly what is needed ^^ synesthetics help to differentiate content 16:00:26 *synaesthesia 16:00:49 VisualizeR: people who write compilers and core libraries decide what is, within a given programming language, the Best Way To Do Things™. 16:01:13 i totally understood what you mean tho, the logic is the same but the presentation differs 16:01:16 and what boily said 16:01:25 people don't decide what language to use on the language. 16:01:34 they decide it on the language's ecosystems. 16:01:54 because most languages are pretty much the same, same powerful so language differences are mostly completely irrelevant. 16:01:57 the semantic of what you write is independent of the actual physical process that happens in your machine. what mroman said: a for loop is a for loop. 16:02:09 the only real constraints anymore are memory management and type safety 16:02:56 so they're like different tools, each one is best for a specific task 16:03:08 languages? 16:03:09 no. 16:03:27 you can translate pretty much any language easily into any other language 16:03:36 you can easily translate perl to python, python to ruby, ruby to php 16:03:38 no problem. 16:04:07 all mainstream languages are (almost) mathematically equivalent. it's just the subjective ease you can describe a task in a programming language that will differ from another one. 16:04:12 so what is best for the ecosystem then? 16:04:24 these languages are mostly only different in syntax 16:04:30 and syntax is easy to "translate" 16:04:33 yep got that 16:04:55 the problem is that you can't translate library calls because they don't have the same libraries. 16:05:16 this makes some languages more efficient in certain tasks, right? 16:05:40 although to be fair they have different OOP so some edge-cases are probably a bit harder to translate 16:05:42 you're always building upon previous work. a task may be easier in one language because some guy did the grunt work for you. 16:05:59 but these details aren't really what you decide on which languages you should use. 16:06:10 Why do people use PHP for webdev? 16:06:15 very simple. 16:06:21 because it's installed everywhere on free hosters. 16:06:23 -!- adu has joined. 16:06:27 because they don't know about javascript 16:06:38 why do people use javascript for webdev? 16:06:43 because there's no other language available. 16:06:59 -!- tromp has joined. 16:07:20 people mostly use python because it has a HUGE set of packages available 16:08:13 so good ecosystem means 16:08:30 a.) lots of packages b.) lots of bindings to c libraries (such as gtk, databases, etc. etc.) 16:09:01 In python i can do import rest; rest.call('/method', blurks); 16:09:12 but that's not because of python it's because somebody took the time to write a nice package 16:09:23 in haskell I'd probably have to set up http requests manually and stuff like that 16:09:34 so the most important part are those core libraries which define the functions the language will have. it probably is a child of the time and can't possibily fit any future needs, right? so it is about keeping it alive and up to date. 16:09:39 so if I just want to do some rest request I'll probably use python, even though I don't like python as a language. 16:10:21 VisualizeR: core libraries are in constant fluctuation. active development is perpetual, to fix security bugs, add new features, optimize stuff... 16:10:25 in the prof. java/js scene it's more about frameworks even 16:10:30 you don't look for a javascript developer 16:10:31 nope 16:10:37 you look for somebody who knows angular 16:10:44 or whatever your company is using. 16:11:01 java it's the same 16:11:06 guice, spring .... 16:11:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:12:10 you can give a kid a visual programming IDE 16:12:18 but it won't write a dijkstra in it 16:12:20 :D 16:12:42 because the kid knows shit about algorithms and math and science 16:13:29 exactly this is why a game is good, it can see the strength of the avatar change with the numbers 16:13:37 the only point I could agree on is that visual programming might make kids more motivitated to code 16:13:43 but not because it makes it any easier or different 16:13:50 but because it looks more interesting to little kids 16:13:57 true, I agree 16:13:59 because it's presented in colours. 16:14:28 CBS presents this program in colour. 16:14:40 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin. 16:15:07 I know nothing about how red eye correction works 16:15:19 but if you give me a function "red-eye-correction(Image img);" I can do it 16:16:33 ^^ 16:17:10 the existence of that function is much more important than the language. 16:17:21 or IDE 16:17:23 or editor 16:17:24 I'm rather in need of procedual textures combined with procedual music and a detection of the music the manipulate the textures and animations with 16:17:24 or whatever 16:17:34 *that 16:19:53 that's why you can teach people to write apps 16:20:07 without teaching them anything about algorithms and stuff 16:20:10 no need to know 16:20:57 which is good. I don't oppose that. but I still think anything related to visual programming is too hyped 16:21:35 most people used vb6 because it had an UI to write GUI code. 16:22:01 that's a useful application of "visual programming" but it's very domain specific. 16:22:24 like you initially said 16:23:15 what's also a good use is to have some model you can visually create and then write codegenerators for that 16:23:32 CIRO or whatever that was called 16:23:47 you can describe state machines in that, then generate the code for it. 16:24:04 then you only need to write code to read/write from pins/io ports manually 16:24:12 i.e. used for embedded systems 16:24:36 that's also a good application for "visual programming" but also domain specific as it's limited to state machines and i/o systems 16:26:59 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 16:27:48 not that I think video games are a goodthing. 16:27:50 but meh. 16:28:02 I'm probably the only computer scientist that actually hates most of the computer related stuff :D 16:28:15 like facebook 16:28:17 or video games 16:28:23 or social media sites 16:28:27 except IRC of course. 16:28:37 IRC is great. It's true. Best chat in the world. 16:29:08 or dating apps 16:29:10 hmm, you know that there are offline video games that you can play all by yourself in your own time, no pressure? 16:29:21 I hate computers too 16:29:30 offline games are fine iff they have splitscreen. 16:29:34 I don't like to care about them as machines 16:29:53 dating apps is a pretty bad invention. 16:29:55 computers are nice as long as they work 16:30:06 It seems like it benefits everybody but it actually doesn't. 16:30:19 sometimes they're also fun to trouble-shoot, but basically only when I don't actually urgently need them 16:30:19 yeah, they should work and it's technicians' job to tend to them 16:30:31 and software is mostly crap 16:30:37 and OS are mostly crap too 16:30:41 from a security perspective 16:30:53 so far the solution to the software problem has been to write more software 16:30:57 find the mistake. 16:31:10 thing is 16:31:11 you need built-in "selinux" stuff in your OS 16:31:14 then we can talk about security 16:31:15 otherwise 16:31:18 nope. 16:31:37 selinux? 16:31:44 this field is so vast, you can zoom in and out, circle the globe and read everything 16:31:51 you know... very fine grained ACL for processes, users, file systems etc. 16:31:52 I think ASLR is the only "security" feature that's really in use here... 16:32:19 and you still can't have a consistent idea about how everything works 16:32:21 mroman: I'm vaguely aware, I think is a fair description. 16:32:26 rm -rf /home/$USER 16:32:41 mroman: *poof* 16:32:48 you can send a windows guy a bat file del /S %HOME%/Documents 16:32:51 if he double clicks it 16:32:52 he's fucked 16:33:01 that's how good security is on modern operating systems. 16:33:07 does / work for \ there? 16:33:13 probably not 16:33:14 :D 16:33:20 my admin days are behind me 16:33:35 It works in some cases 16:33:52 but that's probably python/java secretly translating / to \ 16:34:01 I encountered http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/ these days, fun to read. 16:34:18 if you have a bug in Word.exe 16:34:21 it can delete all your documents 16:34:25 I don't call that security. 16:34:41 I have talked with people at work about how to solve the problem 16:34:49 but they just laughed at me and told me "It'll never happen" 16:34:53 and I guess they are right. 16:35:01 There's no money in security apparentely 16:35:12 right 16:35:18 there's money in selling AV products 16:35:25 yeah 16:35:27 sigh 16:35:29 but that's a crappy solution to the problem. 16:35:40 it's not a solution 16:35:43 it's just crap. 16:35:53 I remember the times when you got a CIH on a floppy with pirated game and it fried your motherboard 16:36:02 they've been bragging about heuristics for 10 years now 16:36:03 these were the viruses 16:36:04 or even more 16:36:11 a.) it doesn't work 16:36:16 b.) even if it would: it's a crappy solution. 16:36:22 nowadays it's just spyware, ransomware and crapware 16:36:28 disgusting 16:36:54 I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc. 16:37:02 and software needs to drop privileges 16:37:08 so it's only working with minimal privileges. 16:37:16 do you? 16:37:23 if you open word foo.doc 16:37:24 it just means more management 16:37:33 you need to drop all privileges except to that file 16:37:38 do I what? 16:37:43 No OS currently supports this. 16:37:50 < mroman> I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc. 16:37:53 http://robert.ocallahan.org/2017/01/disable-your-antivirus-software-except.html was another nice article; https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/?mt=1486125905262 is also relevant. 16:37:57 I want that yes. 16:38:08 how would that look like in practice? 16:38:15 but it means you gonna have to start from scratch and design an OS with security in mind SINCE THE START. 16:38:35 nooga: a.) you configure what parts of the filesystem a process can even see etc. 16:38:38 very fine grained. 16:38:43 you have security contexts 16:38:50 you can narrow a securyt contexts 16:38:53 and one day some smart kid will crack even this 16:39:44 mroman: you're right in principle, but a key question is how to make all this usable and understandable for laypeople. 16:39:47 mroman: hmm.. design an OS with security in mind from the start? Have you heard about capros? 16:40:07 * Zarutian is just catching up. 16:40:29 int-e: Well the problem is I don't give a fuck about laypeople. 16:40:32 what about unikernels? maybe just box up every application 16:40:33 (though I guess a lot could be done by versioned file systems that allow people to go back in time?) 16:40:36 If software developers would do a better job it would work 16:40:44 and run them in a hypervisor 16:40:44 but if they do a crappy job then FUCK them. 16:40:59 (which is quite different from what you're suggesting, of course) 16:41:03 just look at all the crappy windows installers out there and shit. 16:41:18 do they still exist? 16:41:27 and perhaps executing programs should be a more privileged operation... 16:42:17 but basically most of the programs are written for embedded devices (which we're just starting to perceive as an attack surface) and consumer devices (which are sold by usability, not security)... we're, essentially, doomed. 16:42:20 (last time I've used windows was in 2008) 16:43:03 http://codepad.org/pbo1ADdF <- like that 16:43:08 security contexts are like stacks or something 16:43:14 you can always drop privileges 16:43:22 and regain them later using a regain token 16:43:40 and you can ask for more privileges at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok 16:43:42 things like that. 16:43:55 int-e: depends on the level of complexity of the embedded SOC. Just using an ARM with a Windows CE or such is not allowed to be primary control in an say a milling machine. 16:44:00 a.) you need to configure the MAXIMUM security context for a process/user 16:44:14 b.) software needs to drop and regain privileges as necessary. 16:44:27 so you want to put middlewares on syscalls? 16:44:30 mroman: congrats you just reinvented the "Mother may I?" problem that plaques systems such as seLinux 16:44:43 Zarutian: XD 16:44:57 Zarutian: What do you mean by that? 16:45:20 and linux is crap anyway 16:45:24 to heterogenous. 16:45:26 * Zarutian is part of rather long lived discussion group that has thought and written extensively about these matters. 16:45:46 by which I mean the distros. 16:46:28 I stopped worrying and learned to love OS X because it doesn't need anything from me and I just want emacs 16:46:39 mroman: the "Mother may I?" problem? basically from your utterence of the phrase "at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok" 16:47:40 well there's not really a way to avoid that. 16:47:51 is there not hmm? 16:48:06 the user decides what software can access which parts of his stuff. 16:48:13 but 16:48:19 think about "dont seperate designation and authority" for a bit and what that could mean 16:48:21 you can hide lots of this from the user 16:48:27 for example with filechooserdialogues 16:48:34 which grant implicit permissions to the file you selected 16:48:42 so the user doesn't even know that this was a security feature 16:48:55 does filechooserdialogues return an filehandle instead of just a path string? 16:49:06 the difference is that it's an OS dialogue 16:49:11 not one from the software 16:49:21 > PID 1234 at 0x0800000800012f wants to call sysapi_mgvgtbf2 to and will touch "/saou/ajsihaois/annsuoanus/tmp/asu_2872983323/f2f2ff2f201-c.ggg". [GO AHEAD] [NOPE] 16:49:24 error: 16:49:24 Data constructor not in scope: 16:49:24 PID 16:49:31 ^ this 16:49:34 20 times a second 16:49:42 mroman: hmm.. basically an instance of an pattern called PowerBox 16:50:55 nooga: you nailed it 16:51:57 nooga: and? 16:52:06 40 times a second 16:52:10 so? 16:52:17 then the software is crap 16:52:20 or your config is wrong. 16:52:21 so your computer is useless 16:52:40 it's a bad idea that all processes have the same /tmp anyway 16:52:58 then the software is crap <--- I thought that was one of the premises 16:53:11 you could install a hand crank on it as well 16:53:27 I would use an abstraction layer for the fs 16:53:31 process only see a virtual filesystem 16:53:36 and you can map stuff into that 16:53:46 like map /tmp/httpd /tmp 16:53:48 IMHO this is not a good idea for consumer grade computing 16:53:52 so httpd has a /tmp 16:54:02 which is on the physical fs in /tmp/httpd 16:54:04 stuff like that 16:54:08 it could be quite cool for embedded/process control 16:54:27 when you set up everything and just run stuff for a long periods of time 16:55:16 well you need strict guidelines 16:55:24 software developers will need to follow these or gtfo 16:55:33 you need a very homogenous environment 16:55:49 so not shitty ideas like "we call it apache2 in this distro, we call it httpd in this distro" 16:55:50 in fact 16:55:56 don't have multiple distros at all :p 16:56:19 welcome to the future, NaziOS is here 16:56:34 I'm a radical person. 16:56:35 :D 16:56:41 security has it's price. 16:56:44 *its 16:56:47 :> 16:57:12 but if you have such an OS 16:57:16 <\oren\> Trump Linux 16:57:16 with such strict guidelines 16:57:29 then the software devs will also ship configuration files for their software 16:57:33 etc. 16:57:36 I mean 16:57:40 if you would have sewindows 16:57:47 you'd need months to configure it properly 16:57:55 yup 16:58:04 because you'd have to write config files for every single process etc. 16:58:09 because software devs don't ship one 16:58:24 and because their software probably does more than they want to admit 16:58:28 here's a fun one... what is the security model of systemd? 16:58:30 like calling home and stuff. 16:58:48 but my opinion on that is FUCK those software then. 16:59:20 I don't know enough about systemd internals to answer that. 16:59:30 well, there's quite sophisticated permission system in Android 16:59:49 you can grant and revoke access to various APIs for each app 16:59:58 but people still click OK 17:00:05 and don't even read that stuff 17:00:06 nooga: it's a step in the right direction, yes. 17:00:15 nooga: yes because if you need the software then you click OK 17:00:16 which 17:00:18 I mean 17:00:24 you can't protect a user from disabling security 17:00:34 but that shouldn't be a reason to NOT implement security. 17:00:41 you can revoke some rights of any app at any time 17:00:49 but then it starts nagging you 17:00:57 setenforce 0 17:00:58 gg. 17:01:25 "oh you just want to take a picture? the camera app has no access to the camera, go to settings and enable" 17:01:51 the trick is to pressure software devs into writing good nice software 17:02:46 I don't know how this can be done. 17:03:58 I think selling crap should be illegal :) 17:04:00 open source gets ripped off each time they push the limits 17:04:01 but that's justme. 17:04:50 and 17:04:59 I think software needs warranty laws like regular products. 17:05:21 if your software has defects, you should be legally obliged to fix those 17:05:28 like with any other non-software product. 17:06:24 at least if you do it commercially 17:06:30 this would mean a permanent internet connection and feedback with their server to ensure everything is within time limits 17:07:32 guess why they digitalize the industries, it still is a law free zone or lets say there are a lot of grey zones 17:09:07 next stop transhumanism, posthumanism after that 17:09:40 once the technology is in us we're a lot better to control and keep track of 17:10:44 humans are bad at solving problems 17:10:46 that's my impression. 17:11:07 they like to talk about problems more than talking about solving problems :) 17:12:57 but there's no one better 17:13:32 ? 17:14:30 [at solving problems] 17:15:02 still don't follow. 17:17:29 sometimes it seems that they aren't even aware of the options they have. 17:17:43 in switzerland citizens have the power to change laws. 17:17:44 so 17:17:51 if a law is still in place after complaining for years about it 17:18:13 then this means to me that everybody likes to complain about it, but nobody actually wants to change it. 17:18:24 so everybody is just bullshitting. 17:18:38 yeah, it's worse when it's the other way round 17:19:19 when people are pissed off and protesting but government does not listen and keeps doing the opposite to what people want 17:20:02 might be a bad political system then :) 17:20:22 nooga: you're talking about a purely hypothetical scenario of course 17:20:35 absolutely :P 17:21:00 I heard a silent "Trump" there 17:21:32 I like the "I do things" attitude. 17:21:37 I don't necessarily like what he's up to 17:21:47 and I don't know what he's up to. 17:21:59 except for that ban of 7 countries 17:22:09 that's the only thing you really read about in newspapers in switzerland. 17:22:22 I'm not surprised by Trump, I've had samples of this stuff since last winter 17:22:45 "The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!" -- Trump 17:23:01 yeah, samples of that as well 17:23:02 I don't know too much about the US system :( 17:23:03 but 17:23:05 executive orders? 17:23:09 sounds like legislative 17:23:28 i.e. why the f*ck does the president have legislative rights? 17:24:23 "l'état, c'est moi" -- Louis XIV 17:24:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:24:34 just a totally random association 17:24:52 mroman: yeah, this is hardcore 17:25:07 mroman: technically his decrees cannot go against existing law 17:25:29 so again, *technically*, you could argue that he has no legislative powers. 17:25:33 but if you get a proesident that's in the pocket of the ruling party and paralyzed constitutional court 17:25:38 you get the same thing 17:26:05 practically though... he has a crazy amount of power, also because he can fire important people, veto laws and the like 17:26:40 checks and balances... 17:27:31 president can fire people 17:27:34 hmm, I've read an analysis of that recently, but where... basically the conclusion was that the rights of the president was established with the underlying idea that only decent human beings would ever attain that office. 17:27:35 that's mistake number two :) 17:28:03 what he will do next is to convince his electorate that checks and balances are bad and set up by the previous team to impede on making the country great 17:28:28 and attempt to dismantle them 17:29:21 or just ignore them 17:30:15 I've seen it happening :| 17:30:28 I'm sure Trump will still like cheques. 17:31:44 (another article all but suggested that Trump has a record to beat: Hitler took 5 months from assuming office as chancellor of the Weimar Republic to essentially total power over the state...) 17:34:30 so what do I need to do to get a swiss visa? 17:35:30 what do you need a swiss visa for? 17:35:48 just get a work permit and stay 17:35:50 :D 17:36:07 or 17:36:13 just make vacation here 17:36:14 and stay 17:36:32 . o O ( bring money ) 17:36:55 and bring lots of gold 17:36:58 we like gold 17:37:00 it's so shiny 17:37:20 countries generally have nothing against rich immigrants 17:37:26 only against poor immigrants :) 17:37:34 hold on, I'm calling Google Geneva office 17:37:35 well 17:37:38 that and muslims 17:37:44 `? apt 17:37:45 apt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:37:49 muslims and poor people 17:38:08 and maybe germans 17:38:15 germans are like arch enemies 17:38:18 for whatever reason 17:38:20 oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens 17:38:45 I guess it's because they talk in a funny language :p 17:38:47 `learn APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". 17:38:49 Learned 'apt': APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags". 17:39:20 @google "adequate pernicious toe-rags" 17:39:21 https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/ 17:39:25 though so. 17:39:32 but I never heard about discrimination against rich english people 17:39:41 as money is always welcome 17:39:50 you'll even get tax discounts as a rich foreigner. 17:39:59 common practice. 17:40:03 All Hail the Toe Of Everything! 17:40:20 *thought 17:40:25 i thought that everyone in switzerland is more or less well off 17:40:32 well off how? 17:40:34 with money? 17:40:40 yeah 17:40:45 well yeah 17:40:49 but more money is always better 17:40:51 nooga: every country needs slaves ;) 17:40:54 I mean 17:41:05 if you are rich and move to some village in switzerland 17:41:18 even if you only have to pay half the amount a swiss would have to pay in taxes 17:41:27 no country "needs" slaves, it is just comfortable to have them 17:41:28 your new neighbours will vote if they want you there :D 17:41:28 it's still going to be a good income 17:41:39 so the village can buy a new school 17:41:41 or whatever 17:41:42 :D 17:41:44 VisualizeR: what are you, socialist or communist ;) 17:41:46 heaven is a real place on earth, you're just too poor to live in it 17:42:06 power to the people 17:42:15 kidding mostly... also out of my depth 17:42:21 maybe I should read Marx. 17:43:18 money equals happiness 17:43:23 but only if you have A LOT of it 17:43:33 (1 Mio. isn't enough) 17:43:39 no, it does not 17:43:41 we're always wanting to simply accept the biggest system there is but this way we give away our power to share information collectively. that is basically the msg of the aliens, the 1% are the alienated ones and they started a class war. 17:43:43 look up Notch 17:43:49 he's miserable 17:44:10 "money cannot buy happiness but it sure keeps the family in touch" 17:44:29 my view on it is that we're all playing a game 17:44:29 (paraphrased, no clue what the source was) 17:44:34 and money is a score 17:44:40 the score* 17:45:07 no 17:45:08 and this game gets slightly easier for high scoring players 17:45:12 family is the score 17:45:14 in my opinion 17:45:15 slightly? 17:45:19 but money can buy you family. 17:45:28 int-e: slightly, unless you're in the top ten 17:45:51 with money I could afford plastic surgery 17:45:55 a lot of plastic surgery. 17:46:29 I cheated and got a lovely wife without using any money ;> 17:46:44 lucky bastard :( 17:47:08 I'm a 0/10. Makes dating incredibly hard. 17:47:28 I used to think the same 17:47:31 there's hope 17:47:31 0/10 on the revised scale 17:47:36 no the traditional scale 17:47:42 the traditional scale is useless. 17:47:54 it's like grades 17:48:14 It doesn't matter if you fail with a 1,2,3, or 3.9 (you fail if grade < 4.0) 17:48:30 fail is fail. 17:48:38 the only grades that actually matter are 4 to 6. 17:49:26 but grades don't count in the game 17:49:35 I'm not "thinking" that 17:49:35 the game is about score and staying sane 17:49:40 I actually have hard data on that. 17:58:49 how old are you? 18:01:11 and /s/l 18:01:32 these are known 18:02:16 yes but the order is important 18:02:47 http://www.gingersoftware.com/content/grammar-rules/adjectives/order-of-adjectives/ 18:02:55 ooooh 18:06:53 26 18:07:17 l? 18:07:19 language? 18:07:44 -!- tromp has joined. 18:07:56 location. 18:08:01 purpose or qualifier 18:09:21 huh 18:09:53 s/l/purpose or qualifier 18:11:02 * Zarutian had to do some chores that turned out to be more time consuming than he thought 18:12:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:23:56 you need pictures too? 18:25:24 what for? 18:25:46 I don't know. 18:26:11 :S 18:31:22 [wiki] [[User:Bax3n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50840&oldid=50630 * Bax3n * (-24) 18:37:56 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PILL CHICKEn). 18:47:52 I have a public youtube channel anyway. 18:47:59 so my face isn't exactly secret :) 18:54:31 you can watch my precious cooking skills. 18:56:46 do you have a link to your wishlist ;) 18:57:00 wishlist? 18:58:16 lol 18:59:51 You can document Burlesque for me 18:59:58 That's on my whishlist. 19:01:26 I can review Cabaret if you like 19:02:07 http://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html <- needs a lot of work 19:02:11 utterly incomplete 19:02:59 oh. 19:05:52 yeh. 19:06:08 probably not even a 100 builtins documented 19:06:08 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: No route to host). 19:06:11 and there are 400 of those 19:06:18 -!- nooga has joined. 19:07:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:08:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:25 -!- tromp has joined. 19:08:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:12:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:13:29 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:19:42 It's got the best Fibonacci program there is. 19:22:27 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:39:23 -!- nooga has joined. 19:50:22 -!- ais523 has quit. 19:50:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:51:03 -!- krok has joined. 19:51:26 -!- krok has changed nick to Guest24490. 19:53:54 -!- Guest24490 has left. 19:55:06 -!- krok_ has joined. 20:29:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:31:17 `` ls -l wisdom/password 20:31:18 ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 38 Feb 4 12:07 wisdom/password 20:31:22 ooh 20:31:27 `? password 20:31:27 The password of the month is n9y25ah7 20:31:43 `dowg password 20:31:44 10206:2017-02-04 learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10065:2017-01-01 learn The password of the month is A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91 \ 9816:2016-12-02 revert \ 9815:2016-12-02 undo -2 \ 9813:2016-12-02 learn The password of th 20:33:38 -!- adu has joined. 20:33:43 mroman: what does the Fibonacci program look like? 20:34:37 `! slashes did we have this 20:34:38 did we have this 20:34:41 ooh 20:36:31 `! --help 20:36:32 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/--help: not found 20:36:37 ah 20:36:49 `! help 20:36:50 The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list. 20:37:00 `botsnack 20:37:01 ​>:-D 20:37:14 the --help was, actually, helpful for me... I did remember what ibin is :) 20:38:12 `paste ibin/ 20:38:12 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin 20:38:17 `url ibin/ 20:38:18 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin 20:38:58 `paste tries `url first before doing any actual copying 20:39:19 giiiik 20:39:33 nooga: waaat? 20:39:38 `url /dev/null 20:39:38 File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository. 20:39:47 ah, it checks that... 20:39:52 `url tmp/spout 20:39:53 File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository. 20:39:56 I didn't know! 20:40:04 whoa whoa whoa 20:40:11 `cat bin/url 20:40:12 ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ 20:40:18 -!- Akaibu has joined. 20:40:18 Ah. 20:40:21 HackEgo's (commands are) surprisingly intelligent sometimes. 20:40:24 `dowg ../bin/url 20:40:26 8136:2016-05-25 ` sed -i \'8s/..hg/(?:&|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 8135:2016-05-25 revert 8132 \ 8133:2016-05-25 ` sed -i \'8s/.hg/(?:.hg|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 4607:2014-04-20 sed -i \'s/hg repository/web-viewable filesystem repository/\' bin/url \ 4606:2014-04-20 sed -i \'8s!.*! if re.match(r"/|\\\\.hg( 20:40:33 shachaf: hth 20:40:34 clwver 20:41:19 oerjan: making random noises 20:41:41 `slwd oerjan//s/clever/clwver/ 20:41:41 oerjan//Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it. 20:42:11 pity, no "clever" in there :P 20:42:27 how unlucky 20:42:35 if only you had a four-leaf clwver 20:43:15 * int-e slashes (that's where this started, wasn't it?) shachaf with a four-leaf cleaver 20:43:48 `cat bin/swrjan 20:43:49 slwd "oerjan//$1" 20:44:07 ...srsly 20:44:18 `culprits bin/swrjan 20:44:21 shachäf 20:44:39 `cat bin/shwshaf 20:44:40 cat: bin/shwshaf: No such file or directory 20:44:48 `cat bin/shwchaf 20:44:49 cat: bin/shwchaf: No such file or directory 20:45:11 That would make no sense. 20:45:13 `? shachaf 20:45:14 Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. 20:45:20 swrjan stands for something like sed wisdom oerjan 20:46:19 shachaf: Would a bell pepper with a passion be a passion fruit? And how do you feel about bell peppers without any passion? 20:47:11 paradoxically, i'd imagine shachaf doesn't think bell peppers are passionate enough 20:47:21 Your reading is not supported by English grammar. 20:47:43 Or maybe mine isn't. 20:47:45 Oh well. 20:47:58 i think english grammar is appropriately ambiguous 20:48:03 I think the grammar supports it, it's only the semantic level that would usually preclude this interpretation. 20:48:55 I'm not one to comment on content. 20:48:57 -!- nal has joined. 20:49:00 Mainly because passionate fruits and vegetables are so rare. 20:49:29 "he hates tomatoes with an infection" 20:49:32 I suppose it's passable. 20:50:14 . o O ( tomatoes are very passable ) 20:50:18 it's raining puns 20:50:39 * oerjan passes int-e a slightly overripe tomato at high speed 20:50:55 yum! 20:52:27 (I don't think this pun really works in english... I guess translating "tomato passata" as "passed tomatoes" would evoke unpleasant connotations) 20:52:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:53:26 puré tomato goodness 20:54:18 int-e: goes well with a cup of kopi luwak? 20:54:49 * oerjan is not going to try either 20:55:35 -!- VisualizeR has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:55:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:55:58 As for English, I have a question. 20:56:49 why? 20:56:56 There's this short joke about the vet thinking the doctor has it easy because his patients can speak and tell him what the problem is why they went to the doctor or what symptoms they have. 20:58:04 The Hungarian phrasing is: doctor: "Mi a panasza?" (which is a common thing for a doctor to asks when you go there without context), and the vet answers "Ja, úgy könnyű!" saying that the doctor has it easy. 20:58:14 What is the idiomatic phrasing of that joke in English? 20:58:48 . o O ( wait, what's the actual joke ) 20:59:18 can you translate the hungarian bits twh 21:00:03 "Mi a panasza?" means "What is your complaint?" which is how a doctor asks an adult why you came to them when he doesn't already know what the problem is 21:00:39 "Ja, hát úgy könnyű!" means "Oh, it's easy that way!" or something like that 21:00:51 :O 21:02:03 Oh, I see. 21:02:50 But the joke only works well if it's short, not a long explanation, which is why I don't know how to say it in English the best. 21:03:44 The veterinarian wants to make the doctor's life harder by not answering questions. 21:03:59 shachaf: no, he'll probably answer the question after that 21:04:06 he just exclaims that first 21:04:20 he's in a joke but isn't stupid 21:04:30 Are you sure he exists? 21:04:35 A Veterinarian was feeling ill and went to see her doctor. The doctor asked her all the usual questions: what were the symptoms, how long had they been occurring, etc. Suddenly, she interrupted him, "Hey look, I'm a vet... I don't need to ask my patients these kind of questions. I can tell what's wrong just by looking." She smugly added, "Why can't you?" 21:04:40 The doctor nodded, stood back, looked her up and down, quickly wrote out a prescription, handed it to her and said, "There you are. Of course, if that doesn't work, we'll have to have you put to sleep." 21:04:44 this version works for me. 21:05:19 int-e: that's a different one, yes. there are multiple jokes about vets and doctors 21:05:38 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:05:53 wob_jonas: I just have no clue how to actually deliver the information required for your story so that there's a punchline. 21:06:08 ok, thanks 21:06:41 (and I don't remember having heard such a joke... not that this says a lot) 21:06:53 The punchline is when one man punches the other. 21:07:03 A man took his Rottweiler to the vet and said "My dog's cross-eyed, is there anything you can do for him?" "Well," said the vet, "lets have a look at him." So he picks the dog up and has a good look at its eyes. "Hmm, not good," says the vet, "I'm going to have to put him down." 21:07:08 The owner was stunned, "Put him down just because he's cross-eyed?" "No, because he's heavy," says the vet. 21:07:24 (that's the other joke I found on the way that made me chuckle, at least. it's all I have for now.) 21:07:53 hehe 21:08:07 Of course I'm reminded of Pratchett's wisdom about horse doctors. 21:08:27 I haven't read enough pratchett, so I don't know what that is 21:09:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel almost, but not entirely without esolang discussions | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah. 21:09:24 http://sprunge.us/cWSI 21:09:33 The transformation matrix of OpenGL is confusing why is there so many? Do you know how to do it to make the simple way (so that the top left corner is (0,0) and then it goes positive by integers per pixel)? 21:10:18 what are you going to do with the z coordinate? 21:10:27 int-e: I see 21:10:48 I think I do not need z-coordinate probably, but I do use the depth buffer though. 21:12:17 Maybe the z-coordinate may be usable as an additional input to the shader program; I don't know if this can work or not. 21:13:09 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 21:17:14 glOrtho used to be the right thing but I haven't used OpenGL in this new everything-is-a-shader age where you're responsible for so much more. 21:18:00 * oerjan is slightly tempted to find a way to tweak the spam filter so the intro cannot be put at the start of the section 21:18:50 hmm, has there been new spam? 21:18:52 int-e: I can use glOrtho but what values should be specified, and what other thing is needed too? 21:19:22 [wiki] [[Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50841&oldid=50823 * Zzo38 * (-1) 21:19:55 int-e: no, but there have been new introductions 21:20:46 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50842&oldid=50833 * Oerjan * (-1) Order! 21:20:50 zzo38: just the range of coordinates you want: https://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man2/xhtml/glOrtho.xml ... that should set up things so that afterwards specifying (2D, or 3D with a z coordinate) vertex coordinates in screen space should work. 21:23:10 Yes, but then what do I need with glViewport and glMatrixMode and so on? 21:24:51 oerjan: I don't know. I guess if I were jumping through the introduction hoop, that would not cause any terrible additional annoyance provided that this is clear and near impossible to miss from the instructions. 21:25:19 oerjan: but is it worth it? do you expect people to actually read through all the introductions? I mean anyone besides yourself... 21:26:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silberjoder whoa 21:26:48 int-e: well they have to avoid the other pitfalls described there already, and it _does_ already say to put it on the end. 21:26:55 *at 21:29:34 zzo38: afair you need glViewPort to specify the area to be rendered to; but it sets up the transformation such that screen coordinates range from (-1,-1) (top-left, I think) to (1,1) (bottom right). So afterwards, you can use glOrtho to set up the transformation that you want without affecting the area being rendered to. But as I said before, this is outdated information. 21:29:52 although the main one people seem to have trouble with is not putting in external links. 21:30:08 oerjan: I guess a more relevant question is whether any of the recent additions would have been rejected by such a test. 21:30:20 (which is also one that was put there _specifically_ to catch spammers) 21:30:52 int-e: there are less than a handful who have put it at the beginning. 21:31:10 but they do seem to happen occasionally. 21:31:20 (and then i fix it) 21:31:49 int-e: and of course i'm mentioning this because there just was one. 21:31:51 And then how does it affect inputs to fragment programs? 21:32:33 oerjan: so put a reminder text at the start of the section. 21:33:20 oerjan: and then adding such a check seems fair to me 21:33:47 int-e: i was considering that. 21:34:12 I know I had to remove the check that peopel had signed correctly 21:34:16 because so many legitimate users didn't 21:34:20 it's really disappointing, actually 21:37:32 . o O ( making good CAPTCHAs is hard not because spammer programs are smart, but because humans are stupid ) 21:38:06 * oerjan cannot be the first to note that. 21:38:06 yeah 21:39:20 I'm reminded to https://www.xkcd.com/810/ and https://www.xkcd.com/233/ of course 21:40:20 i'd fail the latter, never having seen that. 21:40:35 810 is an approach that's too hard for humans, 233 is one that's too easy for machines 21:41:23 oerjan: a bot passed a fairly large turing-test tournament, it did so by pretending to be a ukrainian teenager 21:41:42 which automatically caused people to give it a pass on things like bad english and no knowledge of American pop culture 21:42:05 i remember that 21:42:53 was it scott aaronson who tried it and found it easy to beat 21:43:15 ais523: in that case too, it was because humans stupid - including the judges 21:43:20 *+are 21:43:47 doesthiswork: 1Jq.+10!C 21:44:00 very nice 21:44:06 http://cheap.int-e.eu/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=1Jq.%2B46%21C 21:44:27 I think the main conclusion was that the Turing test doesn't actually work 21:44:33 (and that's not a fibonacci builtin) 21:44:56 wob_jonas: *reminded of 21:45:19 ok 21:46:20 `ping 21:46:20 pong 21:47:20 ais523: it _could_ work but (1) the judge would need to be competent (2) a passing program would need a full fake human backstory 21:47:33 zzo38: meh, I googled a bit. AFAIU, vertex shaders convert coordinates into "normalized device coordinates" (that's a cube [-1..1]^3) with all fragments outside the range being dropped; the input to the fragment shader includes window (that is, device) coordinates of the fragment though, obtained using data from glViewPort. 21:48:13 `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 21:48:13 dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative 21:48:17 so it's making unreasonable demands of the program, unless it's only using stupid humans as judges 21:48:27 oerjan: Why should Eliza not be able to pass a captcha? :P 21:48:55 `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero 21:48:56 dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative 21:49:00 ``dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero 21:49:00 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `dc: not found 21:49:04 ``` dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero 21:49:04 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031 21:49:05 dumb 21:50:12 [wiki] [[Brainfuck+3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50843 * Ivancr72 * (+1195) Created page with "Brainfuck+3 is like [[brainfuck]] but it has a bidimensional space and it has 3 more commands. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:c..." 21:50:46 `ruby -ex=i=1;loop{p x+=i=x-i} 21:50:46 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found 21:56:23 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Gotta go). 21:56:46 [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+452) Created page with "( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck is a derivate of [[Brainfuck+3]] but with lenny faces. ==Commands== + ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
- (♥ ͜ʖ♥)
. [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50845&oldid=50829 * Ivancr72 * (+46) added bf+3 and lennyfuck 21:58:52 `` dc -ezz[rpdk+Klxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # tweak 21:58:53 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 21:59:31 (and you can replace zz by 1 if you don't care about the 0 or empty stack errors) 22:00:21 [wiki] [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50846&oldid=50635 * Ivancr72 * (+47) 22:00:39 you need knowledge about american pop culture to be considered human? 22:00:43 -!- Guest78015 has changed nick to L3viathan. 22:01:10 mroman: good question, wait, there was a discussion of this 22:01:16 let me try to find it 22:01:28 [wiki] [[Blablafuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50847&oldid=50697 * Ivancr72 * (+6) 22:01:44 -!- VisualizeR has joined. 22:01:44 although turing test doesn't really test if you're human. 22:01:54 I reckon intelligent aliens would pass the test too. 22:02:05 `` dc -e1[dKp+rklxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # actually one char less now 22:02:06 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 22:04:34 [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50848&oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+64) 22:05:14 60% thought cleverbot is human 22:05:20 what the fuck is wrong with these humans. 22:05:46 and hu 22:05:53 only 63.3% of humans were identified as humans 22:05:54 what 22:06:23 "Out of the 334 votes cast, Cleverbot was judged to be 59.3% human, compared to the rating of 63.3% human achieved by human participants." 22:06:42 Was it one of those bots that emulated a teenager? 22:06:47 don't know 22:06:56 but cleverbot.com let's you chat with it online 22:07:09 I doubt you need more than one minute to see if it's a bot. 22:07:35 int-e: It is still confusing to me a bit. If I will use vertex program and fragment program, what do the different inputs and outputs of those programs do? 22:07:37 Face it, we cannot reliably tell fungot apart from the channel's less silicon blessed residents at all times. 22:07:37 int-e: there are fnord 22:07:53 And fungot isn't even trying to pass itself off as human. 22:07:53 int-e: thankfully you can click at part of the problem, so silly a redundancy 22:08:22 Such as, what do texture coordinates do? 22:08:28 http://codepad.org/9ZFq88xe <- it just takes a single question 22:10:52 http://codepad.org/P4AjtUca <- either those humans were incredibly morons or they didn't participate with their online version in the test. 22:10:53 mroman: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3285.html and its discussion thread http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=7411 22:11:07 -!- iconmaster has joined. 22:11:12 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:14 myndzi. <-- i think \oren\ makes a better cyborg these days. 22:11:21 the first two answers are completely out of context. 22:11:40 -!- iconmaster has quit (Client Quit). 22:11:56 are there transcripts from those turing tests available? 22:15:33 "Although Cleverbot managed to score well on the Turing test, the model that did that is different from the one you’ll find online." 22:15:55 Thought so, because the online version is pretty dumb. 22:18:32 The trick is to not ask them yes/no questions. 22:18:52 they are decently good at detecting yes/no question and answer randomly with either. 22:19:49 can't you ask a yes/no question for which a random answer would be suspicious? 22:19:55 at least half the time 22:20:03 or for which both yes and no would be bad answers 22:20:08 of course. 22:21:19 also you need to reference previous things you've said. 22:24:06 stuff like "Lookt at my last sentence. Pick the worth word in that sentence which is a verb. Please tell me the simple past of that verb." 22:24:18 *fourth 22:25:39 To identify a bot you need to know what a bot can't. 22:26:00 If you ask people to identify a bot who don't know how bot works 22:26:09 mroman: f*ck you I'm not doing your grammar homework for you! 22:26:10 the chances are much higher that they'll think it's not a bot. 22:26:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:26:14 mroman: thought you put in the misspellings on purpose :P 22:26:48 oerjan: no. It's kinda funny but these things happen all the time to me. 22:26:58 I write stuff "pseudo-phonetically" 22:27:07 * Zarutian has met actual humans that fail parts of the turing test 22:27:21 itym sudo-foneticly hth 22:27:43 oerjan: itym 22:27:47 what? worth is pseudo-phonetical? 22:27:59 kinda. 22:28:04 (reading: ity[are]m) 22:28:05 I also write does <-> those 22:28:09 isn't pseudo-phonetical when you write sign instead of sine? 22:28:33 * oerjan hands int-e his evil overlord card 22:28:34 anyway it's late. Gonna hit the hay. 22:28:46 oerjan: does it bite? 22:29:03 my stupid friend told me to inform him when I go climbing again so he can join 22:29:13 but that apparentely was an empty promise. 22:29:26 mroman: that's a promise? 22:29:33 int-e: a balm does, yes 22:29:40 int-e: ooh, good idea 22:30:01 it's a promise to join me, yes. 22:30:18 but he's not even responding. 22:31:17 and I kind need to know... I don't like it when people only commit on the actual day it was planned. 22:31:21 or cancel on the day it was planned. 22:31:27 that's rude. 22:31:39 and disrupts my workout regime. 22:33:20 Now I had to go shopping today waiting for him to answer. 22:33:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:33:26 Wanted to buy a suit. 22:33:29 Shit is too expensive though. 22:33:32 600 bucks 22:33:42 need to think if that's actually worth it. 22:34:29 I have a weird body shape. 22:34:29 too expensive? 22:34:30 suit yourself 22:34:39 I can't buy clothes without having to tailor them. 22:35:17 my arms and legs are shorter than other peoples. 22:35:22 *people's 22:35:27 well 22:35:37 600 bucks is probably a reasonable price for a tailored suit 22:35:49 I mean that's likely average price for that kind of quality. 22:36:39 but I have no specific use for a suit other than that I currently don't have one and wanted to see what the fuzz is abut. 22:36:41 *about 22:37:34 you only need a suit if you work as a lawyer or in a bank or insurance company 22:37:41 otherwise nobody needs a suit. 22:38:06 and 600 bucks is too much to ruin it 22:38:08 mroman: not quite. it's useful to have a suit when you're invited to other people's weddings 22:38:21 s/when/if/ 22:38:22 I'm not getting invited to weddings. 22:38:38 My own brother doesn't even say hi to me 22:38:39 so 22:38:42 yeah, but many people who aren't lawyers or work in a bank are 22:39:08 There's zero people who would invite me to weddings. 22:39:11 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 22:39:13 or birthday parties 22:39:18 pretty much anything. 22:39:24 :-( 22:40:06 Last time I went out was more than 2 years ago. 22:40:30 like out of the house? 22:40:39 lol 22:40:41 and the total amount of times I went out I can count with two hands. 22:40:49 no 22:40:50 sheltered... 22:40:54 I leave home everyday for work 22:41:12 and climbing 22:41:14 and stuff 22:41:17 mostly climbing and work tho 22:41:18 alercah: or have a really big house, like Wonko the Sane does 22:41:47 and doctor appointments 22:42:32 I face orofacial dyskinesia 22:42:39 hm 22:42:39 do you mean indoor climbing? 22:42:43 *I have 22:42:54 orofa... what? 22:43:02 ok oerjan what actually happens is that my brain skips to the next word and then mangles words together 22:43:05 what does that mean? 22:43:20 so I end up writing "I face" orofacial instead of "I have" 22:43:44 wob_jonas: It means my facial muscles are doing shit they are not supposed to 22:43:58 also chronic orofacial pain 22:44:14 I see 22:44:35 They move without me commanding them 22:47:07 I don't have many friend. 22:47:24 Mostly because I'm very good at sensing if people actually like me or just tolerate me. 22:48:17 and since I'm not very narcissistic I don't give a shit about attention from people who tolerate me 22:49:21 Maybe that's a BPD trait 22:49:22 who knows. 22:49:34 or SPD. 22:51:04 and I'm not really good at anything and not traditionally attractive at all 22:51:14 so people usually don't want to be friends anyway 22:51:33 mroman: what sort of climbing? indoor climbing? 22:51:38 indoor 22:52:00 and bouldering 22:52:06 but climbing only indoor so far. 22:53:22 I tried indoor climbing only once, and didn't enjoy it, so I never went back 22:53:37 but at least I can understand why other people want to do it 22:54:07 It's challenging. 22:54:21 and the first few times it feels like freedom. 22:54:28 but currently it has become more of a challenge 22:54:33 like "I wanna climb better grades" 22:55:01 but it's a very niche sport around here 22:55:03 not a lot of people 22:55:26 I don't know anybody who climbs 22:55:31 yeah 22:55:37 it's not that common 22:55:44 so I'm limited to the routes with those Toppas devices 22:55:53 somehow a lot of people started to do squash (sport) 22:56:12 Toppas devices? 22:57:08 apparently that's some sort of rope holding thing, if I understand right 22:57:13 yes. 22:57:18 It's at the top of the wall 22:57:41 it has a mechanism that slows your fall to 1m/s 22:58:15 mroman: can't you also go to indoor climbing spaces that don't have ropes but are not very tall and have a thick padded mat on the floor? that's the kind of place I was at when I tried. so if you fall, you don't fall from too high, and don't hurt yourself much (usually). 22:58:25 wob_jonas: that's called bouldering 22:58:28 and yeah, I do that. 22:58:32 ah 23:00:21 https://www.hoehenpass.de/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/560x560/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/o/toppas_1.png <- that's a toppas 23:00:42 it's on the top of the wall with a rope attached so you can pull it down, hook it up to your climbing belt (probably not the correct term) 23:00:57 and it always pulls the rope in so when you climb upwards it will pull the rope in 23:01:21 climbing harness? 23:01:27 when you fall it will slowling unwind the rope with about 1m/s 23:01:30 ah yes. harness. 23:02:05 if you're tired from climbing it gets hard to even pull the thing down :) 23:02:40 because there's always an upwards force pulling the rope back up 23:02:48 so you have to pull it down against that force :D 23:03:54 which is why people once they have pulled it down fix it to a carabiner at the bottom of the wall. 23:04:07 well there are two systems in use actually 23:04:22 one where the carabiner from the toppas is at the top with a small rope attached to it so you have to pull the thing down 23:04:49 and system 2 is where it's already pulled down and hooked with carabiners on the floor 23:04:59 so you unhook it, climb up, fall down, hook it to the floor again 23:05:16 the problem with that is if some moron forgets to hook it to the floor the whole thing is pulled to the top 23:05:20 and you need a crane :D 23:06:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:06:06 some routes have similar devices 23:06:24 "snatch pulley"? 23:07:00 it's not a machine so you need a human partner but the device makes you lighter to like 10% of your actual weight 23:07:15 so the one who is protecting you from falling down needs very little force 23:07:34 and the rope is already on the wall 23:07:44 it's mostly for children though. 23:08:31 well... good night. 23:08:36 really need some sleep now. 23:08:46 -!- mroman has quit (Quit: zzZzZzzZz). 23:15:47 -!- carado has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 23:22:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:22:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:22:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:24:17 oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens <-- i've got hth 23:24:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:24:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:24:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:24:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:27:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 23:27:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:28:12 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:29:02 a brand of kittens?! 23:30:26 mwno. 23:30:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:31:45 do you recommend hth brand kitchens? 23:33:27 i find it slightly unnerving that i cannot find the plugs for the fridge and freezer 23:34:41 i considered defrosting the freezer recently, but i don't know how to do it without using the circuit breaker 23:35:07 (i hope it doesn't really need defrosting, the buildup isn't _that_ great) 23:35:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:36:01 anyway, i don't really have an idea, it came with the apartment. 23:36:29 do you recommend your apartment? 23:36:48 no, the ventilation is far too noisy 23:37:16 the positive things about my apartment are the location and the price 23:37:44 the rest ranges from ok to scow 23:37:53 but those are the important things anyway? 23:37:58 oh also my bedroom is next to the building staircase/elevator. 23:38:15 maybe norway is no cheaper than berkeley 23:38:18 which is sometimes annoying, but not that often. 23:38:33 i don't know... 23:38:43 doesn't matter 23:39:01 Should I stick around CA or go somewhere else? 23:39:33 go to sri lanka and become a fisherman hth 23:39:45 not into fishing tdnh 23:40:07 UNACCEPTABLE 23:40:10 (me neither) 23:40:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:41:16 i'm also not into other people fishing 23:41:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:41:55 . o O ( shachaf is working for the fish people ) 23:47:29 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:49:34 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 23:50:05 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Changing host). 23:50:05 -!- Bowserinator has joined.